1j. Minutes CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
MAY 6, 1991
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:33 p.m. . The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Mason, Councilman- Workman,
' Councilman Wing and Councilwoman Dimler
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Paul Krauss, Jo Ann Olsen, Charles
Folch, Todd Gerhardt , Todd Hoffman and Scott Harr
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
approve the agenda with an addition by Mayor Chmiel under Council Presentations
from the Administrative Section. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended
and the motion carried.
' PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Mayor Chmiel: The next item is a public announcement and that is a resolution
' proclaiming and establishing May 19-25, 1991 as a National Public Works Week for
the City of Chanhassen. wnereas, public works services provided in our
community are an integral part of our citizens' everyday lives; and Whereas, the .
support o-f an understanding and informed citizenry is vital to the efficient
operation of public work systems and programs such as water, sewers, streets and
highways, public buildings, solid waste collection and snow removal; and
Whereas, the health, safety, and comfort of this community greatly depends on
these facilities and services; and Whereas, the quality and effectiveness of
those facilities as well as their planning, design and construction is vitally
dependent upon the efforts and skill of public works officials; and Whereas, the
efficiency of the qualified and dedicated personnel who staff public works
' departments is materially influenced by the people's attitude and understanding
of the importance of the work they perform, Now Therefore, I, Donald J. Chmiel,
by virtue of the authority vested in me as Mayor of the City of Chanhassen, do
hereby proclaim the week of May 19 through 25, 1991 as National Public Works
Week. In the City of Chanhassen and I call upon all citizens and civic
organizations to acquaint themselves with the problems involved in providing our
' public works and to recognize the contribution which public works officials make
every day to our health, safety and comfort. Furthermore, all citizens and
interested parties are invited to attend a public works open house being held
May 23, 1991 from 2:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. at the City's public works facility
located at 1591 Park Road. Can I have a motion?
Resolution #91-38: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve a Resolution proclaiming May 19-25, 1991 as "Public Works Week" in
Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve
the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
c. Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-263 Regarding Portable Chemical
Toilets on Recreational Beachlots, Second Reading.
11
1
I
II 'City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
d. Resolution #91-39: Approve Cooperation Funding Agreement with MnDot for
Auxiliary Turn Lanes on Trunk Highway 101 at Sandy Hook Road and Choctaw
Circle, Project 89-26.
e. Approval of Accounts.
f. City Council Minutes dated April 22, 1991
' g. Resolution #91-40: Regional Transit Board, Resolution in Support of
Councilman Workman's Application.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
B. AWARD QUOTATIONS FOR PLAY EQUIPMENT, SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK AND SUNSET RIDGE
11 PARK.
Councilwoman Dimler : On 2(b) I just wanted to make sure, as I was reading
' through this I wasn't quite clear that we were approving only the $12,000.00 for
the playground equipment for Sunset Ridge and we're putting South Lotus Lake
Park on hold until the drainage improvements are completed. Is that what you
understand out of this?
' Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilwoman Dimler: In that case then I will move item 2(b).
Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second?
Councilman Wing: Second.
Resolution #91-41: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Wing seconded to award
' the bids to Earl F. Andersen and Associates in the amount of $10,000.00 and
$12,000.00 for provisions of play equipment and border wood for South Lotus Lake
Park and Sunset Ridge Park respectively. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
H. 1991 EQUIPMENT CERTIFICATES, RESOLUTION APPROVING SALE.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay on item 2(h), I appreciate what Don is doing here and
I think it 's a real valiant cause. However I do have on the other side of the
coin have a concern for, in view of the fact that last week's meeting and the
response the people had to the valuation of their property and the property tax
probably going up this year, I think we need to be careful and take their
concerns into consideration before we up our levy limit or keep it up. I'm
' wondering exactly, and I'd like to hear from the other Council members how they
feel about maybe limiting ourselves in the upcoming budgets. And I know the
City has done a good job but I think we can do better and I am concerned about
the property tax that's going up for everybody.
' Mayor Chmiel: Right and I follow right along with your thinking. As far as the
dollars expenditures that we're looking at but I think maybe what I'd like to do
before anyone has some additional comments, I'd like Don to sort of cover this
' 2
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 ' 1
some and give a brief explanation of this particular proposal even though it 's
indicated here.
Don Ashworth: Equipment certificates have been used over the years as a means
by which we have funded equipment . In passing this you are not locking yourself
into any equipment purchases for this year. You're not locking yourself into
any equipment purchases for next year. You -are solely keeping your option open
in terms of the flexibility of being able to approach the 1992 budgetary process
with potentially one additional tool in hand. There's one additional benefit
and that is through the certificate process, under the accounting standards we
employe, etc, those dollars would not be looked at as unrestricted dollars of
the city. One of the things we have to be very fearful of is the legislature is
looking for every dollar they can find. It was only about 3-4 years ago that
they started looking at some of the reserves of school districts and where they
felt that the amount of money that a particular school district had was higher
than their perceived belief as to what it should be, they literally came in and
took those dollars away from the school district . The way they did that is they
looked at the total dollars that would be given to a school for their
educational purposes. The amount of money they had on hand and then subtracted
those two amounts and that 's the amount they sent that school district in the
following year as far as any type of aid support. They're talking about doing
exactly the same type of thing with cities and what we're doing here is just one
additional method to try to protect some of our local dollars.
Councilwoman Dimler: Like I said, I think it 's a worthy cause but on the other '
hand, I find that when we've given that leeway up front, that normally our
spending seems to take that route then. I don't know how we're going to hold it
back later on. I do see some items here like the dump truck, plow and sander
for $70,000.00 and we've talked about this before. I wonder if we aren't
somewhat better off to contract some of our items out, especially the seasonal
ones like cutting lawns. Not owning the lawn mower but having someone do it for
us in the summertime and also the snow plowing in the winter time. I guess I
would like to see us take a little better look at this before we pass this. Are
there any other comments?
Mayor Chmiel: I'll open it up for any other comments by, around from Council.
Mike?
Councilman Mason: Are we under some time constraints here Don in terms of i
passing this?
Don Ashworth: Yes. The State legislature has already put into effect, or at 1
least two of the three bills before the legislature have stated that no debt
incurred after May 20th of this year can be levied for in 1992. So we have a
meeting coming up on May 20th. I don't know if that would qualify or not. But
one other point and that is, every equipment purchased is listed on there.
Staff will have to come back to the City Council and receive approval. This in
no way binds you to take and make any one of those purchases. You can delete
any one of those that you wish to and that would not affect the action that
you're taking this evening.
Councilwoman Dimler: However, I know having been on the Council when we do 1
that , then they just say well it 's been budgeted for and that's kind of like the
3 1
1
' ' City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
excuse to vote for it then.
Mayor Chmiel : But that 's our perogative at that particular time.
' Councilwoman Dimler: That 's what I'm struggling with.
Mayor Chmiel : Yeah. We can so choose not to make that approval at that
' particular time because it will take additional action for each of those
respective items.
Councilman Mason: To just close what I had to say, I agree with a lot of what
' Ursula is saying and I think we do need to look at some contracting out on some
things. However, if we're looking at potentially losing a big hunk of money
here if we don't get this done by the 20th of May and understanding what both
' the Mayor and Mr. Ashworth are saying, we do. I mean they might come before us
and say we want this and we might say well.
' Councilwoman Dimler: We don't have the money.
Councilman Mason: That 's right and so I think it 's a good idea to go through
with this but certainly keeping in mind with what you're saying.
Mayor Chmiel: And remembering discussions that were done today.
Councilman Workman: I think Ursula's continued tenancity on the budget and
trucks and cars is going to eventually pay off. However, I think the blame, and
I never miss an opportunity, goes to the legislature. Quite frankly I think
they think we're a bunch of idiots out here. I think my speeches on this topic
' get more brazen every year but we're not idiots and I think a large share of
citizens in the State of Minnesota aren't . And those are the folks that are
creating this kind of wasted time at our City Council meetings monthly. We have
' to juggle balls and do everything else just to get them out and I'm getting real
sick and tired of it and if the Council would like to pass another resolution.
A letter to send to Representative Kelso and Senator Johnston to tell them to
work a little harder to make sure that this kind of stupidity doesn't continue
to happen. But I agree that I think we can pass this tonight without giving up
our watchfulness on this equipment and I agree with your comment .
' Mayor Chmiel : Okay thank you Tom. I think that 's a good point. The
legislature very seldom gets letters from the constituency of this city and if
everybody is sick and tired of seeing taxes going up and the positions that
they're talking about presently with the increasing of the budgets once again,
that's where your letter directly to the constituencies, and not only those that
represent us but people in other public offices that are in the house and the
senate, needs to have those letters. The trouble is that we don't take the time
out to do it . We do from the City. From the Council and we do write those
letters but if you don't do it, it's going to continue to happen and keep
happening. As Tom indicated not too long ago once comes the revolution. Tax
paying. That 's going to take place shortly. That 's something I've said for
years as well. That somewhere people have to take the time to review their
given budgets and come in with the same thing that we have had to do within City
' Council. And I just don't mean here. I mean County. We also have to look at
the school district but the State is the place where we have to start and make
I 4
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 1
sure that they stop this. End of story. Richard, I'm sorry. I
Councilman Wing: I'm going to agree with Ursula and support her position. I
think all we're doing is juggling dollars. And if I read the top of this
resolution it says, resolution authorizing the issuance and sale of $280,000.00
equipment Certificate of Indebtedness. We're not paying cash. We're charging
those and I guess why incur the debt? And I agree with Ursula. If it 's here
and it 's funded, if it 's in this fund, it tends to get bought and it 's difficult '
to say no.
Mayor Chmiel: Well , I think if we did adopt this, it doesn't necessarily mean
that the Mayor has to put his signature on here. We may have the manager's and
maybe we could hold that accordingly but then that resolution is available.
Don Ashworth: That 's potentially a good idea. '
Mayor Chmiel: So I'm strongly recommending that we move on this, although I do
fully agree with Ursula but we can still control the dollars from this
standpoint . But it is something that in the event we don't have the dollars,
this gives us that opportunity for it. So I'd like to.
Councilman Workman: I would move approval of 1991 Certificate of Indebtedness, '
Authorize Indenture.
Councilman Mason: Second. I
Resolution #91-42: Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Mason seconded to
approve the Resolution Approving Sale for 1991 Equipment Certificates. All
voted in favor except Councilwoman Dimler and Councilman Wing who opposed and
the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2.
Councilwoman Dimler: For reasons as stated earlier and I think the City should '
set the example of not allowing us to go further into debt .
Mayor Chmiel: Well I agree with you. I'm not disagreeing with that position
but I'm saying that we just in case this is.
Councilwoman Dimler: I understand that position too. It's just that the tax
payer takes precedence in my thinking right now.
Mayor Chmiel: You're right and that 's where it should always be. I fully agree
and I don't think there's anybody that 's been tighter with the dollar as the
bark is on the tree than what we all have been.
VISITOR PRESENTATION: None '
APPROVE FEASIBILITY REPORT; AUTHORIZE PREPARATION OF PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS
FOR WEST 79TH STREET EAST OF TH 101; PROJECT 91-8. '
Charles Folch: You'll recall at the last meeting the feasibility study was
presented and at that time a representative from Rapid Oil, Valvoline spoke up
that he hadn't had ample time to review the numbers that were presented. Since
that time, it 's my understanding that he has reviewed the study and that all of
5 1
1
City Council Meet '- g - May 6, 1991
the property owners involved with this improvement project are in agreement with
' the assessment numbers that were presented at the previous Council meeting and
if there are no further questions or concerns raised tonight concerning this
project , I would again recommend that authorization for preparation of plans and
specifications of the project .
Councilman Workman: I would move approval.
Mayor Chmiel : Befo- we do, can I have a second?
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
' Mayor Chmiel: It 's been moved and seconded. Is there anyone wishing to address
this at this particular time?
' Bill Mad:`cn: Just briefly Mr. Mayor. I'm Bill Madden with Valvoline Instant
Oil Change and Director of Real Estate for the company. It 's my understanding
that the counsels for both Valvoline Instant Oil Change and the City have been
' in negotiations and completed the documentation on this. There's only one
remaining minor issue in connection with it that I know of at this time and
that 's a very minor discrepancy in the legal descriptions. That one adopted by
' the City and one that 's fur-ished by the surveyor for Valvoline Instant Oil
Change. Once that 's completed, the documentation is pretty much in order and
ready to proceed.
•
' Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Thank you. Is there anyone else?
Resolution #91-43: Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded
' ordering the improvement project and authorizing the preparation of plans and
specifications for improvements to 79th Street east of Trunk Highway 101/Great
Plains Boulevard; Project No. 91-8. All voted in favor and the motion carried
' unanimously.
YOUTH COMMISSION PRESENTATION, GREG SHANK AND STEPHANIE YOUNG.
Stephanie Young: Greg Shank and I are here on behalf of the Youth Commission
committee. Appeared in front of you a little over a year ago. I notice two new
members sitting here. I'm wondering if you have sufficient background by virtue
' of the letter that I sent out . Did you receive a letter?
Councilman Wing: That 's the only background.
Stephanie Young: Would you prefer to have additional background?
Councilman Wing: At this time? Mr. Mayor, I let you make the decision.
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Stephanie Young: Okay. I'll just give a short overview of what the committee
has done and what we wish to do and then we'll answer any questions that you may
have. By way of a short history. In 1988 Community Education District #112
applied for and received a grant from the State of Minnesota. It was 50 cents
per capita for youth development funds. They then drafted a youth development
6
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 II
plan which provided for basically provided for youth a positive environment in
which to grow up. Several groups spun off this to implement the major aspects
of this plan. There were 4 major aspects. One was curriculum development in
the area of youth issues. Another one was a research center. The third one was
tht vE,lues committee that you are probably most familiar with. They've made
several presentations I believe in-- front of this group and then the fourth was
the establishment of a youth commission which was envisioned right from the
start as being the permanent ongoing vehicle to provide the continuity and the
coordination among the communities and the agencies. We have got together over
many sessions to discuss just what form the commission should take and what
goals it might shoot for. We've drafted proposed By-laws which I brought on my
original presentation. To facilitate the accomplishment of these goals we
proposed at that time a 3/4 time staff person, a paid staff person to
coordinate. Compile data. To meet with all the agencies serving youth in the _
whole district and to feed information into a computer. Do the necessary items.
We planned at that time and did request funds based on a per capita figure from
each of the parties to the agreement . Those being the four cities, the school
district and Carver County to basically pay for what would be the coordinator's
salary. We presented this to the various parties during the preliminary budget
time for them which is about the same time that the State decided to decrease
it's money to the cities. After more thought, over a year's time, what we've
done is we've streamlined our proposal. Went back to the drawing board. We
tried to save the original vision of the youth commission but to establish
realistic goals for a commission that didn't have a paid staff person. What we
have here, as you can see in the letter of understanding, is pragmatic and we
feel doable. Without the paid staff person, obviously it 's going to take more
time to accomplish what the commission originally had as far as goals. But just
by virtue of it 's getting up and running, some of these goals can be in place
right from the start . The advocacy for youth area and to provide input for
planning and goals and policies for youth development and activities. This
would be an agency that would advocate. It would also act in an advisory
capacity to any organization or any of the parties who would wish the youth
input . At a later date, as soon as possible with an all volunteer group, some
of the other aspects could be put into place. One being to work collaboratively
with youth. To give them a voice in their community and identifying needs and
programs. To work with youth serving agencies and services to avoid duplication
and respond to identified and unmet needs. What we have there is we determined
after looking at the whole scenario regarding youth that there appeared to be a
lot of duplication of effort within the county. You might have 2 or more
agencies covering the same area for perhaps suicide prevention. That 's just an
example. And we felt that by the youth commission getting up and running and
then getting a bead on what was out there, that we could offer our services in
trying to avoid this type of duplication and the expense of dollars that maybe
didn't need to be spent . So those are areas that will move a little slower but
will be achieved in time. I guess I don't need to really go down the goals
here. I've talked about the purpose. The mission is to provide youth an
environment in which they can make good decisions and are valued and active
participants of the community. I think you will see from that statement that
what we want is going to be good for cities. It's going to be good for counties
and school district too but after all, these kids grow up. They become the
citizenry and it's always better to have a citizenry that's gotten that good
base on good decision making. Greg, do you want to talk more about the format? '
7
ICit v Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
Greg Shan_: Thank you Stephanie. Appreciate the opportunity to speak to
Chanhassen City Council briefly on this. We're going to get right to the
point . You do have a chart that we distributed with the background letter of
understanding. It looks like this. If you want to take a quick look at that . I
' just wanted to point out a couple things about that to avoid any
micintarpretation of the information that 's presented there. This does not
represent an organizational chart first of all. All this is trying to do is
' show corn.-, relationships. As a program that has come out of a mandate from the
State through the Youth Development and Youth Services levy that Stephanie spoke
to, this does not again show organization relationships but just , or I should
ca; an organizational chart but it shows relationships between these different
' organizations. If you'll just take a look at the youth commission which is kind
of at the hub of the different organizations and how they relate to that . You'll
see community education as a direct line to the youth development program. Again
11 that goes back to the State mandate issues. You go all the way to the right
sidr and Stephanie talked about some of the areas that were incorporated into
that youth development plan initially that allowed the district to levy the 50
' cent - that Stephanie referred to. Community values was one of those and it 's
probably been the most visible and effective activity in the area of youth
development plan so far. I might say that they are working very vigorously
right now in planning another annual event for next year and to keep this focus
' on values. Below that the youth issues is another area that was part of the
ycuth development plan that was presented to the state. And the last component
was the resource coordination activity which is down towards the bottom. Right
' now there 's not very much going on in terms of that activity but it certainly is
a focus for the plan itself. The other boxes are trying to .describe other
cooperating agencies and youth serving organizations and also to underline some
of the activities that are going on in the schools as well. The youth service
' component , the youth learning service. Trying to encourage youth to get
involved in volunteer opportunities is taking place in a number of different
ways in the district , including being evaluated in terms of curriculum. That's
' what the PER is, the planning evaluation and reporting requirements laid out by
the State and one of the mandates in that area is youth service learning. We
have a number of groups within the district that are already asking students to
' get involved, either for partial credit for class or I particularly like the
group, the Student Council Subcommittee on Service in that they're just doing it
for the sake of doing it . It 's kind of nice. And they're really working at
trying to make that go. Home school partnerships. Developing the parent liason
' concept . Parent involvement in the schools. Strengthening the home school
partnership teams is all a very strong focus right now in terms of supporting
the youth development effort. And of course parent education based on the early
' childhood family education model and trying to expand that and making those
services available to the K-12 parents as well through programs such as the
Teamwork in Education which were sponsored twice this year by the Chaska
' Education Association in cooperation with the school organizations have been
ver,' successful. I guess with that I would just refer you back to the letter of
understanding very quickly in terms of the make-up of the membership. We are
coming to each organization that we are asking to be a part of this agreement
and suggesting that if you do agree and come along with us on this idea, that we
would ask that you would appoint one youth and one adult that would help to
represent this community and would help make up the commission. It 's very clear
that youth must be a part of this process to make it successful and we look
forward to answering any questions or respond to any issues you might have.
1 8
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 ' II
Mayor Chmiel : I have just one. RI was reading the letter of understanding
within the mission statement portion. I'm just trying to make a grammatical
change and it will fit . Provide youth and environment which they can make.
Rather than using good, use intelligent decisions rather than using and after
that , use the word that are valued and active and participants of the community. '
Stephanie Young: Do you feel that good is too much. . .
Mayor Chmiel : I think the youth of our community are intelligent and they make
intelligent decisions.
Stephanie Young: We were hoping as far as the last part of that sentence to
mean, that there. . .and active participants of the community so that 's why we put
and in there.
Mayor Chmiel : Okay. Two ands in the very close proximity to each other.
That 's the reason I said that are valued rather than and are valued. But just a
suggestion. I'm not saying it 's cast in stone.
Councilman Mason: I like the intelligent because good really is, I mean a good
decision tc you might be a bad one to me but I think the point , as an educator
myself, is that we are teaching the kids to make intelligent decisions based on
what the knowledge they have. I think that 's a real good point .
Mayor Chmiel : Any other discussion? Ursula.
Councilwoman Dialer: Greg you said, I wasn't quite sure. You said this program
was mandated by the State.
Greg Shank: Okay. Not mandated. The State provides the opportunity for school
districts to be involved in youth development . The mandate comes to the
curricAum. I was referring to the curriculum part. '
Councilwoman Dialer: Okay. Oh, they're not mandating the program? That 's
optional . Okay.
Greg Shank: No. You must prepare youth development plan.
Councilwoman Dimler: That 's why usually when they mandate they don't provide '
funds and I was going to ask you if they provided some funds for you or not?
No? You're saying no? No funds from the State?
Greg Shank: No. Local funds only.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, but what will this come down to in dollars for each
city?
Stephanie Young: That's. . .
Councilwoman Dimler: Oh really? That's great . First time I've heard that.
Mayor Chmiel: It 's not going to affect our budget .
9
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
F
Greg Shank: As Stephanie pointed out , one of the big difficulties was when the
I original plan was put together, is that it was very elaborate and involved in
some rather expensive staffing patterns and we just came back and looked at it
when the cities came under the dollar crunch and said, we shouldn't just give it
up. We've got a good plan and we have good things happening. We have good
community involvement of people such as Stephanie Young and her committee who
are made up of all communities. I mean they make my job easy. I've only.• been
around a short time in this and they've been ushering this through for 2 or 3
years now.
Councilwoman Dimler: That 's great . I know we supported you last year and I
Ididn't realize that you don't need money for materials or anything.
Greg Shank: We're planning to make it go with the volunteer group and to use
the 50 cent levy to give some support for those incidental costs and see if we
I can't get it rolling. I think a point that Stephanie made before and discussion
about this is that one of the benefits of a collaborative agreement like this is
that it 's encouraging to other funders to seek communities and organizations
I working together like this and it probably, if at some point we determine that
some dollars are needed, we can probably put together a grant that I would guess
most people that are signers of this letter of understanding would support and
Ithat might give us the dollars.
Mayor Chmiel : Basically supporting the value system that we've already
established with them.
IStephanie Young: Chaska has signed. If there is a wording change, they've got
their letter which is almost exactly the same a what you have in front of you
I and also Carver as of tonight has signed. We go to Victoria on the 16th. So
what we've requested is that you consider this and. . .
Councilman Workman: I would move approval of such.
Councilwoman Dimler: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve the Letter of
Understanding for the District 112 Commission on Youth. All voted in favor and
the motion carried unanimously.
Greg Shank: I'd like to, again I'm going to congratulate a second time tonight,
Stephanie on the work of her and her committee because they've really done an
outstanding job.
' mayor Chmiel: Job well done. Thank you Stephanie.
I PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 9.14 ACRES INTO 14 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS, LOCATED
NORTH OF HIGHWAY 5 ON TH 101, KURVERS POINT SECOND ADDITION, VANDOREN HAZARD
STALLINGS.
Jo Ann Olsen: This was reviewed by the Planning Commission on the 17th. The
applicant is proposing the second addition for Ku.vers Point. When this was.
first approved by the City Council, the second addition was to contain a
secondary access onto TH 101. Not surprising, this is where most of the
I 10
I
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 II
discussion has been between staff and the applicant and also at the public
hearing in front of the Planning Commission. The rest of the plat is pretty
straight forward. Staff has no objection to it but we did have an objection to
replacing the secondary access to TH 101 with a cul-de-sac. We feel pretty
strongly that you do need to have that secondary access to TH 101 to allow for
emergencies and for safety for the neighborhood. The applicant and the
neighbors obviously feel pretty strongly the other way. That they prefer to
live on a cul-de-sac. At the Planning Commission, that's where most of the
discussion surrounded. We had several different alternatives to the cul-de-sac
and to the thru street and that included a right-in/right-out only. Included
shifting it further to the south and essentially what came down at the Planning
Commission was recommending denial of the proposed plan for the cul-de-sac by a
3 to 2 vote. After that it was felt by the Planning Commission, the ones that
did deny it that if there was an emergency access provided in addition to the •
cul-de-sac, that they probably would have approved it . So staff, when we spoke
with the applicant , did request that they do pursue the emergency access and
they have not come forward with that . I think that they are still just pursuing
the cul-de-sac. I'm not sure if they have a plan for the emergency access.
Staff is still supporting the secondary access onto the, TH 101. That's still
our recommendation. If the City Council does decide to go with the cul-de-sac,
we are recommending that at the very least the emergency access also be
provided. In addition, in working with MnDot , if the proposed plan is approved.,
that means that all of the 40 lots will be using the one existing access. Due
to that they will have to go back through and receive another permit from MnDot .
That first permit for the access was approved just for the first phase. As part
of that , the City is recommending that improvements be made to that access. At
this time it 's not very well designed to handle that much traffic. In fact that
was a point brought up by the residents at this time that the intersection is
not all that safe. So we are going to be requiring that improvements be made to
TH 101 in the form of turn lanes and by-pass lanes. With that I know that
there's lots of residents who wish to speak but we are recommending denial of
the proposed plan. We do have a list of conditions should the cul-de-sac plan be
approved and that does include providing emergency access and improvements to TH
101 intersections.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Jo Ann. Is there anyone wishing to address this item
at this time?
Scott Harri : Good evening Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. My name is Scott '
Harri and I represent the Kurvers Land Company and the proposal before you this
evening. What I'd like to do is to tell you that both Mel Kurver and Frank
Kurver are here along with sons Paul and Craig to answer any questions that you
may have in conjunction with this proposal. But when the Kurver family decided
to develop their land in 1987 they had made a conscience decision to create a
unique neighborhood of high quality homes. The original site plan was designed
to meet these goals while respecting the land forms and vegetation patterns on
the site, including existing wetlands and Lotus Lake. The second addition to
Kurvers Point is now being presented. Phase 2 retains the original goals but
also reflects 4 years of market and development experience.- The second phase
now represents the addition to an existing neighborhood rather than the creation
of a new residential area. The original site plan had called for 15 lots in
phase 2 with an average lot size just over 23,000 square feet. In response to
the market , the second phase is now proposed. Features larger lots with an
11 1
II City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
emphasis on the creation of lots with the ability to build and construct
' walkouts. As presented, the second phase now contains 14 lots of which 10 can
accommodate a walkout construction. In addition to reacting to the market
concerw_ , the new plan also reflects the concerns of the existing residents who
have constructed homes in phase 1. The Kurvers Point Homeowners Association has
provided input into the planning process for Phase 2. Their primary concerns
revolve around the safety and traffic issues. Correspondingly the local road
' system has been changed to establish two new cul-de-sacs being presented with
this plan. Consistent with Phase 1, the second addition of Kurvers Point is
being presented without the need for any variance or modification from the
minimum zoning standards. The project continues to vastly exceed all minimum
' zoning criteria in pursuit of a high amenity, high quality residential
neighborhood. The staff has prepared a detailed report concerning this project
and I'd lik=• to dwell a few minutes on some of those conditions of which Jo Ann
' briefly spoke to a couple of them just a few minutes ago. The first item
concerns the development of an emergency access. We acknowledge that that was
some of the comments prepared. The Kurvers have spent some time reviewing this
item but if it's your pleasure to approve the subdivision with an emergency
access which we would hope would not be one of the conditions approved this
evening, ws would like some further definition as to what you would consider an
emergency access as far as constructability and the feasibility of this thing.
' We have some thoughts on that but hopefully that won't be a condition to
approval of the subdivision. The second item pertains to Kurvers Point Road
intersection with TH 101. In talking with a number of people from MnDot , there
is -a little bit of confusion. In your packet there's a letter stating one thing
' and talking to the permit people at MnDot they state quite the opposite
regarding whether any future improvements would be needed at this time if all
the lots were to come out at one access. But what we need to keep in mind is
' currently at the intersection of Kurvers Points Road with TH 101 there is a
right turn lane. There is a by-pass lane and there is a large radius
acceleration lane. All three geometric features that Jo Ann had mentioned
earlier that MnDot would be looking to create at this intersection so that
infrastructure is in place right now. We would further request the Council to
remove the requirement for the second access as part of the development contract
that was agreed upon with the first phase as more of a housekeeping item.
Another item 4, we'd like to clarify in the conditions. The new lake access for
Lots 4 and 5. This would really, we'd like to broadened this out to all lots
that would be lake lots. Those lots would have to receive sewer service from
the lake area sewer. Not the sewer in the street and to get down there, a path
would have to be excavated to install the sewer pipe. We would like to at the
time of building permit to come in and work out the alignment to minimize
' disturbance to trees, steep grades and other factors that I think item 4 in the
conditions was intended to address right here but to allow the builder and the
property owner some flexibility in selecting that . Lastly, with regards to
this, again just a clarification. Item number 19, trail fees or the discussion
' of them. It was approved and the procedure with the first addition that the
builder at time of building permit would pay for the trail fees. Not the
developer so we'd like some of these things incorporated if it 's your pleasure
' to approve. But what I'd like to do is talk a little bit more about the
specifics of the development experience gained from the past 4 years to help you
best understand the proposal before you tonight and the factors needed by Kurver
Land Company to keep this a high quality neighborhood. Firstly, the builders
coming in here needed to have lots that would be at least 10 foot wider at the
' 12
City Council V tin; - May 6, 1991 '
setback line. We have accomplished this and the result is if you've seen, is II gcing from 15 lots down to 14 lots to accommodate that particular provision.
Secondly, it became extremely apparent and a keen interest by not only the
builders and perspective homeowners but some that elected not to build in this
subdivision, that screening along TH 101 was a very important key element to the
success of this neighborhood. For both noise and visual impacts. In
conjunction with this project we are proposing a berm. to run the full length
along the east side of the subdivision between TH 101 and the plat to provide,
ai least mitigat some of the visual and the noise impacts. It would be a break
in thee berm such as would be created by the construction of a new street and a
new access out here would severely diminish the effectiveness of the berm
screening ability for both noise and visual impacts. Also the Kurvers Point
Homeowners Association prefers an atmosphere of a cul-de-sac neighborhood, and
perhaps a lot of people do but what that does is it brings along the idea and
the soundness of security and traffic safety that these kinds of neighborhoods
provide. They end up being a very tight knit type of neighborhood. Hence this
is what propelled the Kurver Lane Company to develop the proposal you have
before you as far as two cul-de-sac streets. The majority of the builders are
again looking for walkout lots and cul-de-sac lots. I mentioned this earlier.
10 of the 14 lots can accommodate walkout construction. 2 of the 14 lots can
accommodate side look out type of lots so almost all of the 14 lots can
accommodate what builder; are looking for. There have been serious concerns
expressed over negative traffic impacts by the property owner just adjacent to
and south of the second addition. When the first addition was being reviewed
and approved by the Council, this proposal before you without the access in that
location would definitely mitigate their concerns in this thing. The Kurvers
Point Second Addition again is consistent with other developments approved by
the City. For instance when we talk about, perhaps the main issue here as far
as cul-de-sac length and number of lots. In doing a real quick overview from
the city map, Choctaw Circle is 1,650 feet long with 45 lots in a subdivision.
Fox Path is over 2,000 feet long and has 49 lots on it . Big Horn Drive is 1,400
feet and it has 33 lots. What we're proposing here is a 41 lot subdivision with
approximately 1,650 foot cul-de-sac. This concludes my remarks and I'll repeat
that it 's our request that you recommend approval of the second phase of Kurvers
Point this evening. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else who would like to address this
particular issue? ,
Doug McLean: I would. I'm Doug McLean and I live at 7280 Kurvers Point Road.
I got involved in the neighborhood about a year ago when I wanted to move in and
I spoke with Mel and Frank Kurvers and have recently bought a house in there and
it was because of the neighborhood that I bought. I bought a neighborhood that
was quiet and private. I bought a neighborhood that had a cul-de-sac on it and
I thought it was going to be another cul-de-sac. The traffic in there, if it
goes to be a thru street , that's what you're proposing is a thru street , will
double the traffic. That traffic that's being doubled has no business being in
there. Don't want to be in there and in fact is in there by mistake. They
would generally come off of Valley View Road. Stop at the intersection not
knowing which way to go. We currently have a sign that says dead end and it
tells people go right or left if you're going north or south. Without , if you
put a thru street there, you'll put a whole bunch of people in there that really
are making a mistake going into a private neighborhood. I also will mention
13 '
II , Cit ; Ccurcil Meeting - May 6, 1991
that thE, people going in there from the neighborhood generally drive 20 mph.
' The people who are just passing through generally go 40 mph because they think
the, 'rs going someplace. They're not going anyplace. They're going to right
now which is a cul-de-sac. You're proposing a thru street . If we do a thru
' street , what we're really doing is proposing another left or right hand turn at
the crest of a street for all these people who made a mistake. It doesn't make
a lit of sense. They're coming up and they'll go up to TH 101 and have to
' decide whether to go right or left again. Is that right?
Jo Ann Olsen: The same as they would to get out of the original access.
Doug McLean: Right . They'd be making the decision twice to cross TH 101 that
they thought they were going someplace. They're not going anyplace. It 's a
private neighborhood. The next thing I'd like to propose is that making that
11 emergency access is just that . An emergency. There will be emergencies there
at the second access. It 's at the crest of a hill. People will be deciding to
go left or right and some car's going to be coming over the crest of that hill
and there won't be enough time. It 's not a very good place to have a second
entrance to any neighborhood. Right now the improved access is fine. The
street traffic is probably half of what it 's going to be if you make it a thru
street . Ca if you want twice as many people making a decision to cross TH 101,
' I mean that 's the right decision. If you don't , leaving it a cul-de-sac is the
right decision. I'd also propose that , I had two little kids coming through
here. They're 4 and 7. They have their own agenda. We'd rather have the
' traffic going 20 mph than 40 mph and I'd also rather have the right to run out
and see which car just burned through the neighborhood like happened last week
when we saw the drag street type thing happen. That I'd like to have them have
to come back through the neighborhood to catch his license number. If you make
' thic a thru street , we can't even do that . Another thing I'd like to mention is
a division of power between the federal, state, county and local governments
which you eluded to tonight in your proposition 2(h). That indeed we have the
' right and the sense that what is right to be made at the local level on the
smallest division should be made at the lowest level possible. That's the
people it involves. There are 42 people, or neighbors. Probably 140 total
' people that would prefer it the other way when this neighborhood goes complete.
Right now it seems to me that somebody else is trying to make that decision. I
think in the youth planning thing too they mentioned that the intelligence of
the people should prevail. I see no reason that this is any other discussion
t than what it is about among the local people. It 's not a city thing. It 's not
a big issue. It doesn't involve anybody out of the neighborhood and the
neighborhood wishes it this way. Unless I'm wrong, the neighbors would prefer
' it this way. As a single street . One cul-de-sac. It's not unsimilar to
anything else that 's been done around here. Thank you.
' Councilman Mason: With all due respect, certainly I understand Mr. McLean's
concern for having a cul-de-sac and if I was in him position, I'd want one too.
I think however to say that the only people that are concerned about it are the
people that live in your cul-de-sac is incorrect . I think the Planning
' Commission, the Director of Planning, everyone up here is concerned about what
we think is best for the city. And there are time when we unfortunately, have to
weigh if you will one neighborhood against another or it may not be the best for
this neighborhood but it 's best for the overall city. I guess I don't want to
step on your toes but I think you're coming out making some fairly strong
' 14
City Cc,uneil Meting - May 6, 1991 ' '
accusations. I quite honestly am open to whatever goes on here tonight . In
fact quite honestly I'm still not sure how I feel about this but I think you're
mirtaf-en when you claim that you 4.0 people in the neighborhood are the only
peorlr that are concerned about the issue.
Doug McLean: It 'd be a mistake to think that I was saying that we're the only
ones concerned about it . I know you're concerned about it. I was saying that I
think that concern should lie with the people who it involves. I haven't heard
an argument from the City Planning Commission or anybody else that says what
we'd like is so wrong. I'm saying this as an individual person but I don't
think that any of the other neighbors prefer the thru street . I haven't heard
of an argument for the thru street that has anything but our safety in mind"
and I think it should be left to us to decide what we think is best , right for
our safety. I think that the fact that doubling the traffic in our area for the
thru street and all those people in there really didn't want to be there. It's
Lind of a mistake that they're there. It's not like they're, you know they're
welcome to come- in. It 's not a problem that way but to double the mistake twice
and make them cross TH 101 twice and try to improve two entrances instead of one
when our neighborhood isn't any larger than anybody else's neighborhood I just,
what are we planning for?
Councilman Wing: Paul, why didn't you address the traffic issue? Is this a II
subjective statement , it 's going to double the traffic? I don't know where this
double traffic is coming from.
Pail Krauss: The neighborhood has made a lot of ascertions that people
mistakenino enter this neighborhood, shooting across TN 101. I don't doubt that
the case. I don't know if people are trying to find a way to the lake or
the)''re just making a mistake but I can't believe anybody would do it more than
once. It doesn't go anywhere. And even if it 's a connecting street back out to
TH 101 , it becomes a longer route than TM 101. You're going to have to wait for
traffic on TH 101 again. Again, it makes no sense for anybody to come in there
unless you live in the neighborhood. What is going to double the traffic is
doubling the number of homes. There's no doubt that that's going to generate
400 trips a day total in and out of this development. Now that 's nobody else
coming in. That 's just the houses that are in there. As to the other concerns,
again it just doesn't make sense. Traffic engineering, it just doesn't make
sense that people are transiting this neighborhood. We can't believe it's going
to be a significant number of cars.
Councilman Wing: Is that statement of doubling traffic just your opinion?
Doug Mclean: It 's my Opinion based on the fact that we see what happens. That
Valley View Road has wandered for 12-14 miles. People have gone through 5 or 6
stop signs and they pass through the next one. We're a direct T through and
they just keep coming in there. They are looking to see what 's happening at the
lake and that and that's not a significant thing but my question to you is, the
second entrance is not all that safe of an entrance and it's 40 people coming
and going from the same street is not a problem. We aren't the problem. We
think that the problem is increasing the amount of traffic in and out of a
neighborhood and doubling the speeds and not being able to decide for ourselves
what we want . You spoke of making an intelligent decision with your State ,
15 '
1
IICity Council Me..! 1r'j -- May 6, 1991
legislators . We'd like to make our intelligent decision for the people living
in our community.
Mato- Chmiel : I think what 's being discussed and I sat in at the Planning
c:ct_ir . Prior to having them put a dead end sign up,
P 9 they were
con' inuojel;- comin; straight ahead because they anticipated that there was
prob,:H • acct her outlet or it went through. With that sign that had gone- up, it
had deterred he amount of flow of traffic from coming in. But there are some
people that ju-t don't pay attention to a sign until they once maybe get past it
or i-,t,-n the particular area unfortunately. But there probably was some total
amount of vehicles coming in that area because of Eden Prairie's road that is
' th 're and it is, I sometimes take that myself when there's congestion on TH 5.
It 's a gea_' road to take and you do take the back side. It has probably caused
a problem Lut since the sign's gone in it 's alleviated a lot of that given
' p r o D'_ as well .
Doug' M:Lrar,: Would the sign have to be removed if it was a thru street?
Mayor Chmiel : Who knows. Yes sir.
Ken Westenberg: My name is Ken Westenberg. I live at 7150 Willow View Cove.
' I'd like to try to clarify at least my concerns and I think the concerns of my
neighbors as to the impact of this second entrance. When you commute to work
like we do, you see these things happening during the commuting times. I have
' per:cnai_'; idtncssed repeatedly people coming up Valley View. Stopping at the
stop sign. If there's one or two cars in front of them and they're all trying
to make left hand turns, the guy in the end, I've seen this happen several
times, will pull to the right . Shoot across the road. Do a fast few turns on
' our street . Then come back and make a right hand turn and be able to circumvent
the two cars that were in front of him. I've seen this happen time after time.
And that 's the reason we say, you put the street through, these people are going
' to shoot across. Go down, around the street and then make that right hand turn
and pass by all these cars that were sitting in front of them. And they're
going to do it at a high rate of speed. I witnessed one instance where a guy
shot across the road, slid his car around with my 5 year old son standing 10
' feet away from him at the stop sign waiting to get picked up by the school bus.
This lc the kind of frustration these people have when they come through there.
You talk about safety considerations. Things about a second access in times of
' forn-docs or fires and stuff. I'll take my chances with those things. What I'm
scared to death with are these frustrated drivers driving in this manner with
small kids standing right there, 30 feet from TH 101 at the bus stop. And this
is happening at the same time these kids are standing there. The commuting
times coincide with the bus stops and that's my big concern. Now obviously we
all feel very strongly about this because we could be home watching the hockey
game but this is a very important matter to us and we'd like to have our
' considerations considered.
Mayor Chmiel: You should be sitting on our side. We have TV's here.
' Public: What 's the score?
Councilwoman Dimler: North Stars are ahead by 1.
' 16
1
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
Councilman Mason: At 7:25 it was 1 to nothing, Minnesota.
Bill Chirell: Hi. My name is Bill Chirell. I just moved in here about 6 weeks
ago. I haven't even met all my neighbors. I'll probably get the opportunity
tonight because I do a lot of traveling but I do appreciate their concern. My
wife and I are both empty nesters. Our 4 children are back east in college or
married with children but I've got to tell you, it is a peaceful community. An
awful lot of kids. I had to make an adjustment moving into that street .
Watching out for kids and going extremely slow because I had the tendency of
driving a little fast again because I'm not from that kind of a neighborhood.
In fact I didn't think I was moving into that kind of a neighborhood until we
got there. But I do appreciate, having 4 kids I do appreciate their concerns
because I was there at one time in my life and I wouldn't want the traffic that
this thing is going to cause and the kind of neighborhood that has been created
by the Kurvers and the builders there. Also, economically I think you're making
a mistake. For a town to take prime property like that and not take advantage
of the tremendous tax base that you have in the future for that thing. I don't
think this is a choice at all. I think it's a very simple decision in terms of
safety. I think you've got more risk of children being injured by automobiles
than you do from the need from fire trucks to get in or firemen not knowing
which road to take. And economically I don't think you have a decision at all.
Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Appreciate it . Anyone else?
•
Mel Kurvers: I'm Mel Kurvers. I'm not going to get into what they just said. I
think enough of that 's been said. All I want to say is when we started this
project we put a lot of work into it. A lot of time. We wanted to have
something we were proud of. We think we've done that . We've asked for no
variances in this project and I think the project has turned out real good.
We'd like to develop the second phase as we did the first . Comments from the
people that are living there, you've heard those. They like it. They'd like to
see it that way. We again are asking for no variances in this project. We're
willing to work with the staff on the conditions but some of such are different
from other projects that we.feel are not fair. We think that we should be
treated like other developers that have been. I guess with that, I don't have
anything else unless you have some questions of me. Those are my comments.
Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Appreciate it. Thank you Mel. I go along basically with what
you're saying. It's a very credible addition that you did put in with the first
phase and with the second one now coming in. Even with that change and it 's
sort of unique to the area as well. Even though people realize that there is a
lake there, the proposal as to what you're showing with the cul-de-sac and
lowering it from previously what was shown on the drawings with the first phase,
you're looking at 15 lots. Even cut it back a lot which I like. You've been
mentioning some of the other areas within the city. It is a length that 's
comparable to what's existing. In fact some of it's shorter. I'm not sure
either whether the real solution to the proposal of having another access out -to
TH 101 is the right thing to do either. I know that a lot of consideration has
been put into this. A lot of thought as to possibly making it better and yet
having the traffic flow just come into that development , people are going to
drive in. They're going to drive in anyway but there might be some frustration
17 '
i
II , CIt ;. Cour!cil Me ' 'ng - May 6, 1991
once thi; do find out that there's no way out and they're zapping around and
coming back out as quickly as they can. To get back onto TH 101 to go where
they're intending to go in the first place. But I guess as I see this, one of
the things that probably has been some discussion by the Planning Commission
' with that 3 to 2 vote and I'm sure they all basically agreed with the proposal
except for that emergency access. I think that some of the things that we
unfortunately as Council have to look at to see how, in the event of a tornado,
storm, lightning, whatever, how we have to provide that access with emergency
vehicles in the ek t that it were to happen. If a tree were to go across that
road, there's no way that they could possibly circumvent going around it other
than of course driving onto lawns. But I think that if we were to look at this
' to see if there has been some consideration for that access, I think this is
something that we have to look at the rest of those residents within. I know
you can say that you probably could forego some of those things but in the event
that an emergency was there, to be able to have that to come into the location
of wherever it is, I think it 's something that probably should be looked at . I'm
not saying it 's absolutely necessary but I think that at least when I'm sitting
back and listening to some of the people indicate their concerns, both from as I
said, Planning Commission and Council, that was one of the things and I think
you've done an exceptional job. In fact if we had all developers just like you,
we wouldn't have any problems and we appreciate the effort that you've put into
the city. Only because y- ' 've lived here all your lives and that 's sort of neat
in itself . I'd like to throw this back to Council to see if there's any
additional feelings and if there's anyone else that would like at this time yet
to maFe a formal presentation, we'd be more than happy to listen to it . Seeing
none, Tom-)
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, I appreciate your compromise position. In a few
minutes I myself will have a bit of business before the City Council and so I'm
going to get a taste of what it feels like to be under the thumb of differing
opinions perhaps and it 's not always friendly I can tell you. But it 's good for
' me. It 's healthy for me to put myself in that position because I can understand
how the people at Kurvers Point feel. Maybe a little helpless and why are we
discussing this at such great length and why isn't it simple? I think it's
' simple. I'm currently, or temporarily on the housing market looking for a
bigger home and probably not as big as Kurvers Point out there but I'm looking f
for a home. And when I look for a home I look for one on a cul-de-sac. That
is what I'd like. I'd like a walkout on a cul-de-sac and I'd like it to be nice
' and big. Kurvers Point is a great neighborhood like all the great neighborhoods
we have in the city. It 's got character onto itself. But we can't make every
neighborhood 100% safe. We once knew a councilmember that served with us that
' thought if you put a sidewalk all over people's yards, then that made it 100%
safe. We didn't buy that and so we didn't go along with it . Since I've been on
the Council we have worked to limit, certainly specifically TH 101. We've
' worked to limit the number of entrances and accesses onto TH 101. The number,
if you look and I was at the Planning Commission meeting and somebody said 25
years ago. If you looked at the history of this neighborhood over 25 years with
a closed end cul-de-sac, the number of maybe accidents, tragedies, medicals,
fires, they would be so few compared to the hundreds of near accidents,
accidents a day that another access would probably create. If you're on top of
the hill that 's probably, I think somebody said that's not the place to put one.
I think that probably is the place to put it but I think we need to put, and I'd
' like to somehow work into some sort of a motion tonight that maybe a stop sign
18
I
C ', Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 1
or other mechanism for allowing the people on Valley View to get in and out of
Valley View because I've blindly gone across after sleeping through all the stop I/
or,= through Eden Prairie and everything else. I have gone across there. I
have done that and it 's kind of funny because I thought gee, how many people
could be that stupid you know.
Councilwoman Dimler: That 's what I was going to ask.
Councilman Workman: Because you wouldn't often make that mistake twice so I'm
not sure how these people keep. Didn't I say, maybe the legislature's right .
They can tax and spend us because we're all a bunch of. . . So I think we are
making this a very nice amenity by keeping it closed and I had a nice discussion
with Frank and again it 's my bias, my business bias. They're the developers and
we've seen developers come through here that have not always been completely
honest with us. I think Frank and Mel are and in conjunction with what the
neighborhood wants, I think we're getting the best product for this neighborhood
by closing it . Now that doesn't mean that there's not a risk that a tornado or
a fire or some kid swallows a marble or I could go on and on but I think by
keeping it closed it retains the integrity of the neighborhood and that's kind
of what I wanted to accomplished without adding the extra entrance and perhaps
forgetting the slip land and putting a stop sign and there's problems with that
too. And also, I appreciate your compromise position. I've seen these
emergency accesses. They do nothing for the quality of the two lots that they
split . Maybe it can be disguised somehow but I've never seen that they look
real good there so that 's where I'm sitting. I'm all for keeping it closed.
Mayor Chmiel : Thank you. Ursula?
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess on safety concerns I understand where staff is
coming from but after having gone out there and looked at it, I'm also concerned
for safety but I do believe that in this case, the daily safety of the children
is paramount over the incidents that might happen accidentally. Although I am
concerned about that. I also think that another access onto TH 101 the way it
is today is dangerous and the sighting there is not good. I know that they're
talking about improving TH 101 but I don't think we'll see that in the near
future so I think we're dealing with this development right now so I'm satisfied
not to have another access onto TH 101 the way it is now. It 's dangerous. I'm
told that our emergency vehicles are 4 wheel drives and that they can go over
rough land or logs if they have to and I wanted to know if the neighbors mind if
they go over your lawn in case the tree is in the way?
Mayor Chmiel : As long as the city doesn't have to pay for it.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah right . I'd like to have that in writing please.
Okay. And I guess the Planning Commission, I was there for that meeting as well
and they voted it down and they didn't mention anything about having them come
in with a plan for an emergency access so I understand why they didn't . Because
it was not one of the mandates that they had so I guess that basically concludes
my comments.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
19 I
I
IICity Council Meeting - May 6, 1991
' Councilman Mason: What is the City's liability at the end of this 1,700 foot
cul-de-sac if because of the length of the cul-de-sac we can't get in to provide
eme re nc> services?
Mayer Chmiel : I'l1 defer that to our illustrious attorney.
Elliott Knetsch: I think what you're looking at is, it 's a difficult item to
put in a nutshell but basically what I think you would see is an incremental
increase in potential liability. Just slightly. I mean you have to imagine if
a person is injured and you have a creative attorney representing that person,
' there's no limit to the ideas he'll come forth with trying to establish
liability . And a cul-de-sac like that would be a potential weapon that a
creative attorney could use. I think it would still boil down to the basics. Is
it reasonable for under a given set of planning circumstances to approve this?
I thic4 th._ things you've heard about traffic considerations on TH 101, the
residents concerns for the neighborhood safety, those are competing interests
and it WUcld be reasonable probably either way you go. I mean you have
subc.tantial reasons on both sides but I would say, to boil it all down, it 's a
possible incremental increase in your potential liability.
' Mayor Chmiel : Thank you. Yes sir.
Resident : I think what you said was that if you double the traffic and you've
got a neighborhood and when those people hit our children. . .potential liability
too? Is that what was said?
Elliott Knetsch.: I don't think there's been a traffic study done that will show
' that it will double the traffic.
Resident : Well there's a lot more traffic. . .and I think that 's a daily concern
that we have. I think if somebody got hurt . . .liability on the other end too?
' Councilman Macon: My question was liability in terms of being able to provide
Y 9 P
services to city residents. That was my only concern.
Mayor Chmiel : You can't control the drivers driving.
Councilman Mason: If we can't get in there because we allowed this to happen,
what could happen to us. That was my point . You know I don't live in a
cul-de-sac and it would be fine. I mean I agree with everything the neighbors
' are saying and I agree with everything that Mr. Kurvers has said. We all,
I think to say that it 's that much more dangerous. I mean I live on a very
steep hill and I have cars driving down my hill too fast and it is a concern and
it 's sometimes dangerous. Again I'm a little concerned about how the city is
going to deal with a specific situation like that . I think I understand fairly
well where the Planning Department is coming from there and this quite honestly
is a tough one. I agree with the neighbors now. 40 years from now maybe
different neighbors are going to feel differently. This is a real tough one and
I think part of my problem is I'm having a little trouble with some of the
arguments I'm hearing from the people in the neighborhood. Safety of children.
' I have two of my own kids. Safety is definitely an issue but safety is an issue
for all of us. It 's not just an issue for whether you live on a cul-de-sac or
riot . That 's not quite what I wanted to say so I'm going to stop.
20
I
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 ' II
Mayor Chmiel : Okay, Richard?
Councilman Wing: Well I think it's been said. I guess I've been a little bit
set back by the arguments as being terribly inept and• without any justification_
I think your comments of doubling traffic really serves no purpose at all. I II
don't buy that at all and I don't think that 'd be the case. What does trouble
me is I think, as staff has pointed out , you're going to add 14 lots and that .
number of 10 vehicle operations per household is a very hard fixed number that
the engineers claim they can without any question justify. I mean it's an
absolute. If that 's the case, what number of cars are going to double your
traffic versus if we're going to create 400 additional ones by creating this
cul-de-sac. So the traffic issue to me is a pretty moot argument . I don't
agree with your numbers. I can just say quite honestly, I think we're going to
increase them by at least 400 at the people that live up by TH 101. I do agree
that it 's your neighborhood and I do support that basic right of government .
That is your neighborhood and maybe you have a right to do what you want . I
happen to like cul-de-sacs. I'd prefer to live on one. I prefer the single
exit to TH 101 versus two. The traffic I think is somewhat of a moot argument .
I guess the only point that was made for Council is one of the owner developers
knows more about fire fighting than I'm ever going to know and I think that he
would agree that if a fire ever broke out, it would certainly be nice to run
engine companies and hose lines from two directions or two separate hydrants
rather than trying to get equipment into the end of one of these cul-de-sacs.
And turn equipment around and if they miss an address what happens and so on but
I really see that , I kind of agree with Tom. It 's statistically really not
likely and considering the speed and efficiency of our department , I guess I
really don't see that as major issue. So I'm 50-50 here Mr. Mayor. I'm
disappointed in the arguments but I do agree with the right to decide what they
want for their neighborhood and I'd prefer to be on a cul-de-sac.
Mayor Chmiel: Would you like to come up to the podium? Just state your name
and address please. '
Craig Kurvers: Yeah, my name is Craig Kurvers and I live actually in Trotters
Circle instead of Brook Pass but I'm very familiar with the development . I grew
up in the area there. Resident of Kurvers Point for 20 some years but what I
wanted to clarify was the comment on 400 traffic flows through the area. In
fact that 's I believe that 's based on a figure of about 10 per household. What
we're talking about adding is 14 additional households so you're dealing with
140 maximum, not 400.
Councilman Wing: That's correct and I would stand corrected on that . ,
Craig Kurvers: Alright , thank you.
Councilman Wing: . . .that's probably a high number. I don't want to get stuck 1
with that . That was just quoted by the engineers.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? '
Resident : I had a question. I don't want to get up. . . What I wondered in all
honesty was the time difference. If there was a time difference in an
emergency, how much time? I understand the argument about if a tree should fall
21 1
I
cur 1 Meeting - May 6, 1991
ovrr hut if you hod a second access, would it make that much difference in time
as oppo_ d to what our concerns are about the children? And even though the
argumenta may appear inept , as you can see they are emotion charged because we
do see a lc ' of the kids coming through. I don't think .any one of us wants to
' be confror,ttational . We're here to try to work this thing out. We have strong
feeling.-_ about it .
Mc 'or Chmiel : We understand that . I think it 's just something that is a
hyp.thetical situation if it were to happen. Being that we're charged in really
running this city, we have to look at all the risks. We have to try to
eliminate for you as residents within the community and it may never happen.
And whethr_-i or not that access is needed is another question. Charles?
Charles Folch: One thing that if the Council so desires for staff to take a
' look at . I recently talked to a couple other communities and what we could do,
if the issue comes down to whether we have an emergency access or not and how we
would disguise this is, in a couple of the communities they pave a road surface
as a fire access which they construct as a normal road section. Then they
provide 4 to 6 inches of topsoil and they sod over the top. It 's a completely
disguised emergency access which they use typically in commercial districts.
However during like this time of year when you have soft ground and things like
that , they're still able to cross over because they have that structural surface
underneath. So I think if the issue comes down to whether we have an emergency
access or not , I think if you so direct us to do so, we could work out something
• , that could be nicely disguised.
Mayor Chmiel : Good. Thank you. Any other discussion? If not , I would
entertain a motion. Tom?
Councilman Workman: I'll make a motion. Let 's table it and talk about it next
week. That 's my motion.
' Councilman b!ing: Can we send it back to Planning?
Councilman Workman: Yeah, let 's send it back to Planning.
Mayor Chmiel : No, this is a decision making Council.
' Councilman Workman: My decision is to make no decision. City Council approve
preliminary plat #7'-14 for Kurvers Point , 2nd Addition as shown on the plans
dated March 18, 1991 for the following reasons. Eliminate 1. The second number
' i. It appears as though approve everything else. No, number 4.
Councilwoman Dimler: We don't need number 2 then do we?
Paul Krauss: Could I discuss number 2 for a moment?
Councilman Workman: Number 2?
Paul Krauss: Yeah. I think we're all aware of the fact that MnDot is anything
but upfront in terms of assuming their responsibi;ities for TH 101. Anybody
11 could call anybody at MnDot and get an answer that no, we don't want any
improvements to TH 101 because frankly MnOot doesn't care about TH 101 and they
1 22
I
City Ccuneil Meeting - May 6, 1991 11
arcumc that they're going to shovel the burden off on us. Well that being the
case, w: 're trying to take some responsibility for that and being cognizant of
SOME of the issues that the residents raised, we said if we're going to be stuck
wit '-, rr,2 access into this neighborhood, let 's make it a decent access. And
we've contacted some folks over at MnDot who agree with that and basically what ,
wr, 'rc loskino at is having left turn lanes on TH 101 and by-pass lanes on TH 101
so that cars making those turns don't have to dart across traffic. They can sit
there ,and wait and cars aren't flying around on shoulders to do that . So add
too that the applicant is experiencing a significant cost savings here. I mean _
there wes originally a requirement , we've all heard comments that the second
curb cut had bad sight lines and frankly it does but the applicant under the
first approval is required to lower the grade of the hill on TH 101. I don't
know what that 's going to cost but the cost was substantial. Without this curb
cut , he doesn't need to do that so there's a substantial cost savings there.
Ma/or Chmiel : We realize that .
Paul kraues: We felt it was reasonable then to think that we could take that
savings and get a benefit of an improved curb cut at the existing location.
Councilman Workman: And I guess as a part of my motion I'm going to put it at
thr end. That 's where I wanted it . We have a traffic study that 's not backed .
from MnOct pertaining to speed.
Charles Folch: No, we're not going to see that yet , no. '
Councilman Workman: Okay, yes we have a study but no it's not back?
Charles Folch: That 's correct . 1
Councilman Workman: And so that 's where I had said maybe -we don't need a slip
lane if you've got a stop sign and that's primitive I know. Don't breathe heavy
on me yet because I'm already seeing, because I've already talked to Charles and
Dave today and then the traffic would back up to Cheyenne and then we've got a
new problem and the Wetzel's and everybody else will be in here. But that 's
what I wanted to kind of leave open for staff to kind of decide because we don't
want a slip lane there if it 's going to be a stop sign. And I'm thinking of the
traffic trying to get on to TH 101 from Valley View. That 's why I mentioned
that . So if we want to modify. So delete 1. Modify number 2 to say, have
staff work with MnDot to see if we cannot in relationship to the traffic speed
study, add in a stop sign and/or slip lane and/or other and work with that and
then maybe we can review that separately. So does that work out? '
Councilman Wing: That 's how I read it the way it is.
Councilman Workman: Number 4 there was a question. Rewrite that with Scott . 1
Okay, and then number 19, they had some questions on that . Was the builder
going to pay for those or the developer? Wasn't it the builder?
Jo Ann Olsen: It says at time of building permit .
Mayor Chmiel: That would be the builder. 1
23 1
IIC;t, Cc .,-__ _ . 7 - May 6, 1991
Os, Ann Olsen: If they wanted. . .
Cour!ilfra` Workman: That 's my motion Mr . Mayor .
Me er C`m el : Any other discussion? Frank, you wanted to mention something.
Councilman Workman: Can I get a second first?
11 Cour,rilwoman [limier - Second.
Fronk Kurvers: My name is Frank Kurvers and it seems like nobody really knows
who'\ the State person here. We've talked to State people that are in charge
and t ,e . give us different answers than they seem to give to staff. So I- guess
I can't understand. We talked to the person who's supposed to be in charge
' today and all these slip lanes and stop signs and everything we're talking
about , the State said that that access is good the way it is. Everything is
there in place that they would require. Now I can't understand, they talked to
a person that gives them a different answer and we talked to the same people. I
guess I'd like to have a clarification. Who are we talking to and who's
responsible for what they' re saying because it should be clarified. We're
reall- on an issue there that what are we trying to create? I mean according to
Adam, which is the guy that gives out the permit , I spoke with him and he said
what 's out there right now is all that 's required of a 40-42 subdivision. Now
we're talking about something extra which right now we're dealing with the State
of- Minnesota. We're not dealing with, we're somewhat dealing with Chanhassen
because that 's part of the plat process but we're still dealing with the State
of Minnesota. The person that I talked to, he's supposed to be in charge.
Mayer Chmiel : I think sometimes in some of those particular situations Frank as
we 've done within the city, our communication plan has improved immensely.
Possibly what could happen is that get on a conference line with staff at the
' same time to come up with the answer that you're looking for and that would
therefore eliminate that problem. Ursula?
' Councilwoman [limier: Mr. Mayor. Mr. Kurvers, while you're up there can I ask
you a question? I wanted to have your comments on our engineer's, Chuck's
comment on what I thought was a good one. The paved road surface underneath
with the sod over. A nicely disguised access for emergency vehicles.
Frank Kurvers: Well, it sounds real good. Anything that has sod on top of it
sounds great but I'd have to differ . If you drive a firetruck on top of sod,
' you're going to replace all that sod so who's going to replace the sod? I mean
it 's a real fancy speaking design but it 's not too useful.
' Mayor Chmiel : The developer?
Frank Kurvers: No.
Councilman Mason: The point is, it 's an emergency access and it would maybe be
used once in 50 years. I mean hopefully it would never be used. I guess I'd
like to see if that could be pursued a little further.
Councilman Wing: Frank, that emergency access. •
24
1
Ci` , Council M—' ing - May 6, 1991 1
Paul Kurvers: My name is Paul Kurvers. If I could just add something to that .
In the case of something like that , who's going to actually maintain it during
the winter months for example? Is it going to have to be plowed? Who plows
it ? Who pays for the cost of maintaining that?
(Thu7,•ci1woman Dimler: Can't the emergency vehicles go over curbs?
Councilman Wing: I was just going to, Frank. I said that seriously. You
probrbly know mot about fire fighting than anybody in the city right now having
bccr, one cf the charter members. And the emergency access has been an issue.
How do you feel about that and are your residents in your community going to get
adequate service without that?
Frank Kurvers: Well, as far as being a firemen for 20 years I'd have to tell
you this. First of all, the property is narrow. The whole entire property is
narrow and if you understand how far apart hydrants are, you could hit that
property from State Highway 101 with the same distance as any hydrant in the
subdivision. So as far as that standpoint of fighting that fire at a particular
house, it doesn't make any difference. And as far as speed to get to that fire,
I would say it 's less than a minute's difference. So I mean that doesn't make
any difference either.
Mayor Ohmic' : Appreciate it .
Councilwoman Dimler: Thank you. Okay', that answers my question. '
Pa!)1 Kurvers : Yeah, I've just got something I'd like to add. You were talking
about the second access, or the one access point on TH 101 being possibly
upgraded and maybe us incurring the cost of upgrading this. It 's kind of a hard
pill for me to swallow. We're adding, talking about adding 14 lots to this
intersection and are we going to justify the 14 lots that we add, is that going
to for example you were talking about 5 dozen vehicles roughly that come up
Palley View Road. Now is it going to be our responsibility as developers to
maintain or upgrade that intersection for the 14 lots that we're adding, without
giving any conditions or giving any credit to the cars that are already coming
uc Valley View Road. It 's our responsibility as developers. Those 14 lots,
based on those 14 lots that we're adding, are we going to have to pay the total
cost of upgrading that intersection? Is that a fair proposition in your minds?
Paul Krauss: If I could address that. The answer is yes. I'm having a tough
time just opposing two positions. Either we're concerned about safety or we
aren't . If this development were to come in today with a single curb cut , we
would have it designed with turn lanes and slip lanes. I've got to believe that
that wasn't done originally because we thought it would have a second access.
There's no question in my mind that we have a right to assure that we have 41
homes that have a safe access and that it's a reasonable thing to do.
Paul Kurvers: Well as part of the approval of the first phase of the
development , we did in fact upgrade the intersection and at that time we did
allow for a turning lane into the intersection and an acceleration lane out of
the subdivision itself also. And on the opposite side of the highway, there
already is what you consider a by-pass lane which you use as an exit to get onto
Valley View Road.
25 1
I
II ' C t; Ccu __ I Meeting - May 6, 1991
II Pau] Kraus : That 's true but they're very short and there are no turn lanes
corin_ into the project .
Paul F ur',rr s: They're up to MnDot 's standards.
1 Frar Purae _ : I'd like to add one more comment here. I think Mr. Wing knows
tha' U,s place . If you were to look at State Highway 41 and State Highway 7,
II the proposal which they're proposing tonight that we should pick up the cost
for, there is not one at State Highway 5 and TH 7 at the present time and you
have a larg_ shopping center there. You also have school traffic and it isn't
even con:- _rcb]e to what we're talking about and it does not have what they're
II proposing.
Mayor Chair?: Okay, thank you. Any other discussion Council? We've got a
11 motion on the floor with a second. Conditions as indicated. Tom has. Everyone
understand the conditions?
II Councilman Mason: I'm breathing. So this emergency access, as Charles stated
is a dead issue then?
Mayor Chaie] It appears as such.
II Councilman Workman: As t ' stands.
motion sands.
II Councilwoman Dialer: Well I think that Mr. Kurvers answered the question
adequat l,' and being that he's been on the fire department for a long time, I
take �'i£ word for it .
ICouncilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve Preliminary
Plat #8'-14 for Kurvers Point 2nd Addition as shown on the plans dated March 18,
1991 with the following conditions:
II1. Deleted.
II 2. The applicant shall receive a new access permit for the existing access to
TH 101 from MnDot and shall provide and pay for any and all improvements
required by the City for the existing access to Kurvers Point. To
I determine the necessary improvements, the applicant shall provide the City
with a detailed traffic analysis for staff approval.
3. The applicant shall request the City Council to remove the condition
II requiring the second access as part of the second phase and necessary
improvements to TH 101 from the development contract recorded against the
property.
I4. Staff will redraft this condition to clarify access to Lotus Lake for Lots
4 and 5, Block 1.
II5. All private driveway access points onto TH 101 shall be abandoned and the .
disturbed areas shall be restored within TH 101 right-of-way.
II 6. Additional manholes, catch basins and pipe bends shall be incorporated,
where appropriate, to install the sanitary sewer, storm sewer and watermain
I 26
II
Ci' , Council Meeting - May 6, 1`391 I
:,ithin the roadway area and not under the curb and gutter. 1
7. All utilities and roadways shall be constructed in accordance with the
current edition of the city's standard specifications and detail plates.
8. The erosion control barrier line west of proposed Kurvers Point Road shall
be the city's Type III erosion control fence. An additional silt fence
barrier shall be installed on the east side of Kurvers Point Road lying
south of Basswood Circle immediately after site grading to prevent soil
from washing into the new streets and storm sewer system.
0. F 75 foot long gravel construction driveway access shall be constructed at
the end of the pavement on Kurvers Point Road to help reduce mud and debris
from being tracked out onto Kurvers Point Road.
10. All disturbed areas shall be immediately seeded and mulched to help reduce
er05 'fin.
11 . Wood fiber blanket or erosion control blanket shall be used on all slopes
greater than 3:1.
12. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the Watershed - 1
District , OhR and other appropriate regulatory agencies and comply with
their- conditions of approval.
13. Tr,a watermain connection at the south end of Kurvers Point Road to the
e>•isting 12 inch watermain adjacent to TH 101 shall be made by a "wet tap"
to avoid interruption of water service.
14. The applicant shall enter into a development contract and provide the city
with the financial security to guarantee proper installation of these 11 improvements.
15. The applicant shall extend a storm sewer lead from the existing storm sewer
in Kurvers Point Road (Phase I) to intercept the backyard drainage '
from Lots 13 and 14, Block 1.
16. A revised final grading and erosion control plan shall be included and
approved as part of the construction plans and specifications for this
project .
17. The developer's engineer shall verify that the proposed site grading will '
not reduce the amount of ground cover over the city's 12 inch watermain
adjacent to TH 101.
10. The existing structures require a demolition permit for removal and any
wells and septic systems must be properly abandoned.
19. Full park and trail fees shall be paid at time of building permit '
application.
All voted in favor except Councilman Mason who opposed and the motion carried 1
with a vote of 4 to 1.
27 '
1
Cii , Crunc_il Meeting -- May 6, 1991
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Would you like to clarify?
Ccu1,_i]m=n Masor .. I would like to clarify that . Again, I basically agree with
neic■hers say and if I lived there I suspect that I would be with them
behind that podium. I wish we could have taken a better and harder look at an
emergerc; access and that 's essentially why I voted the way I did.
Mayor Chmiel : Good. Thank you.
AMENDMENT TO SITE PLAN APPROVAL, SIGNAGE FOR THE CHANHASSEN MEDICAL ARTS
' FACILITY, 470 WEST 78TH STREET.
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, I'd like to be excused to the audience. I will
not be voting on this item.
Mayor Chmiel: You may remove yourself.
Councilwoman Dimler: Mr. Mayor, I'd like to be excused to the audience.
Mayor Chmiel : No.
' Councilwoman Dimler : I don't want to vote on this one.
Paul Krauss: Well Mr. Mayor, I hope this item's a little less contentious but
I doubt it .
Mayor Chmie] : I would hope so too.
Paul Krauss: As you're aware, this has been bounced around between, well it 's
had several hearings in front of the Planning Commission, youself. This started
out approximately, well there was a sign plan that was approved with the
original building. It was a condition of the original approval. That sign plan
allowed a sicne on the front of the building. There was some confusion about
that and a year later, last year the applicants came back in and raised the
' number of signs to 5 signs on the front of the building. They are seeking
additional tenant signage and that led to this series of negotiations. They
came before you several weeks ago. You had agreed that a plan that you had seen
' but the Planning Commission didn't which provided 7 signs was okay in principle
but that it should be sent back to the Planning Commission for clarification.
The Planning Commission looked at that and basically agreed to the following.
' That if Area C, which is that middle band, be allowed to have 3 signs, the
Planning Commission felt that the sign height should be no greater than the sign
height anyplace else on the building which is 24 inches. They had a problem
with that signage area being larger. A sign covenant is being revised to
' prohibit temporary signage which was a recommendation of staff and sign
covenants requiring permit approval by the city which is a requirement but we
like to state that in covenants. They were silent on the question of color
because they believe that color is allowed anyplace on the building which in
fact it already is. We only have one sign that 's not , well that 's yellow now.
Everything else is white. The applicants had proposed that all the signage
except the signage in the middle be white. So there's a lot of fine points
where there's some difference here but the Planning Commission wasn't concerned
about colored signs and they weren't concerned about logos either. As long as
28
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 1
, ci: could fit them into a 24 inch band, that 's fine with them. The applicant on
this has been pretty cooperative and has tried to come up with middle ground
pe_itions that he felt met his needs and also strove towards meeting what
tte Planning Commission was talking about . Therefore he's come up with a final
sign, package that reduced his original request from 4 foot signs. Remember the
Planning Commission only wanted 2 foot . From 4 foot signs to 3 foot so we're
talking about a 12 inch difference at this point . Maximum height of letters
would be reduced from 3 feet to 1 foot which is again a little bit different
than the Planning Commission. The Planning Commission had envisioned 10 inch
letters as opposed to 12 inch letters that's being proposed right now. Under
the applicant 's proposal with a 3 foot sign band too, you could stack the
letters so you could have 2 bands of 12 inch letters. The applicant has
developed some language that 's consistent with staff recommendations. On the .
sign covenants, we have a few different language changes but we're generally
okay with that . And again, the applicant 's proposal differs from the Planning
Commission in that they are still requesting only monochromatic signage except
in the middle of the building. As I told the Planning Commission, this is
getting into an area that 's really tough for us to make a strong recommendation '
on. As you're aware, we're not dealing with a strong sign ordinance that gives
us a whole lot of direction and there's not a real body of work to consult in
terms of what the City's desire is in signage in the downtown area. Given that
however, _ was unable to find any reason to recommend anything other than what
the Planning Commission had forwarded to you. We note that there are
substantial number of signs on the building and we note that this building is
unusually close to the street and we are therefore carrying forward the Planning
Commission recommendation and the conditions of approval that are provided with
our recommendation are those that were developed by the Planning Commission. I
think that does it for me Mr. Mayor. I
Mayor Chmiel : Thank you. Is there anyone wishing to make a presentation at
this time? For the record, state your name and address.
Bob Copeland: My name is Bob Copeland and I'm one of the building owners.
I just have a few comments to make to you. You've heard most of the things.
Would you like me to move it closer?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes please.
Mayor Chmiel: Can you pick that up?
Councilwoman Dimler: You can't see it now? Okay, you can move it back. I've
seen what you're proposing.
Bob Copeland: Briefly I just wanted to state that we've made a $1,800,000.00
investment in downtown Chanhassen and we're real proud of the building and we
don't want to do anything to this building that's going to detract from it 's
appearance and detract from downtown Chanhassen. We have a big stake in
downtown Chanhassen and how successful the whole downtown is. We think that
this building, this investment has created jobs in Chanhassen. It's created tax
revenue and we think that this is a benefit to everyone in Chanhassen. Also,
just as an aside, the reason it's as close to the road as it is is because
that 's where the City wanted it . Our original proposals had it back from the
road. As you know, we have experienced a need for more tenant signage than was
29 i
I
II ' C" Me- g - May 6, 1991
:,niicirated and due to the cooperation of the Council and the
Flannin3 romr,i sign and the staff, we're almost there in achieving the results
or thr a_'. ' ,ved signage that we need. We're really down to one issue you might
that 's tt-,e height of the signs in the center area that are allowed. We
n-i- ' . ;l or ICI 's say most recently requested that that area be allowed for 4
foot ar.i the Planning Commission wanted 2 feet . We are now before
r ina 3 feet . Now not only is that splitting the difference but 3 feet
' is no' just an arbitrary number. It turns out that in order to put signs as we
tc. rare in the center area, we have to have it actually turns out to 44
inches is the minimum height that we can put in the signage that we would like
to Lc. c .' I've rounded that off to 3 feet . Due to the type of lettering that
wc ' = tr/in; to install there with the lighting inside the letters, there's a
cet-tain minimum dimension that you can have on these letters. In order to get
signerr_ lie American Family on that building, you have to have at least 34
inches ::1-1 hsi, ht for a sign. Now if you take a look, this is drawn to scale.
This is - fut high sign area. This American Family sign is 3 feet from the
top of that peak to the bottom of that box that we have the letters for
' insurance . This is the 4 foot . I guess the point I'm trying to make is 1 foot
doesn't make a lot of difference visually but it does make a lot of difference
in terms of what we're able to get on the building. So that 's all I have to
say. If ;cu have any questions, we'll be happy to answer them. Thank you.
ma-r - Chr:.ie l : Appreciate it . Does anyone have any questions?
' C:uncilman Mason: You came out with the 3 feet right? I mean that was your
11 Cc- 71en -
co
Ccue - = 1man Mason: Okay.
4L.>c ChRir_1 : Anyone else?
Coy- ilm n Mason: May I please say this Mr. Mayor? Would you please state your
Tom Y-ccrkrr,an: For safety I'll state my business address. 470 West 78th Street .
' Pio`t hire in town. Tom Workman. I have, like Bob, I have specific concerns
fcrticular logo. If we go to a 2 foot maximum height and if you look
at the logo and everybody is getting used to what that logo looks like, we have
this little roof on there. So what I'm speaking about is proportions. If the
height can only be so high, then it 's length as a logo can only be so high. In
other L'-,rds, if I could have 19 feet potentially, which I guess is my option, I
could have 17 feet . My logo would have to be 7 feet high let 's say. So in other
' words if it 's only 12 inches high, it can only get so long because the logo
would be compromising and it can't go on forever and ever. So if I have a 10
inch or 12 inch letter height , which isn't bad. A 12 inch letter isn't bad and
I'm going to have American Family and Insurance, that's it. I in other words do
not have room for the logo, the roof. Part of it . So if I'm going to get the
roof and two sets of letters in there, the letters are going to have to be,
the-e little metal letters are going to have to be very small and as it gets
' smaller- it gets littler. Imagine yourself hurdling by this thing at 35 to 40
mph and now you can't see. 25 mph. So what I'm saying is as you shrink it down
30
city Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 1
thi- way, we're talking about the height . You're also talking about the width
cumin; in to the point where we could have something the size of a license plate
up there and why have it . So my hope is that the Council will take into
,onsideration what maybe wasn't 100''% clear when the building, when the footings
were ju_t going into the building and that is that the needs of the building
changed and that my preference isn't to spend and Bob's isn't to spend hundreds
or thousands of dollars on these huge signs making the building look gawdy but
th- aign in it 's basic sense and form is for a reason and that 's to be seen.
It 's to be seen so that not only in my situation but in the situation of
. everybody in the building, can make a living and that 's why we're in the
building. There's a reason why I'm in that building. It 's a classy building.
There 's a lot of traffic going by. I think people recognize that it 's a great
`aiding. I don't want to make this building look ugly with my logo. I don't
thin this does that . I don't know how many of you get down to Chaska but they
have a new professional building down there. I don't know if any of you have
been down there for a while but as you pull up to the intersection down on TH 41
right at 21:', there's a brand new building right by the tracks. It's an office
building and there's a very large Burnet Realty sign on there. Now it 's not
individual letters. It 's much like the American Family sign that we have on our
building now. It 's just basic plastic with a logo painted on there and backlit .
Not individual letters like we're doing on this building. I have two copies
and I'll pass them around. Very obvious. The other building in Chaska is what
they call the Chaska Professional Building. Dr. Sudcliff, the chiropractor is
pratt ;' much, well he's the dominant tenant but he has a very large, very high
mounted sign with his apparent own logo. It's about 3 or 4 feet high the sign
itself en there's good doctors, there's chiropractors, isn't there an artery
doctor or something going to move into the building. All these people that are
advertising and they're advertising for a reason. Because that 's what the
market 's dictating. And that 's all I'll say unless you guys have any questions
of me .
Councilwoman Dimler : Are there other people in that building already because ,
the onl; sign I could see was the Burnet Realty?
Tom Workman: Yeah, they're hoping to get other tenants in there.
Councilwoman Dimler : They don't have them yet though?
Tom Workman: No. They have 2 full floors there. ,
Councilwoman Dimler: When they get the other tenants, will they be able to put
up their signs? Do you happen to know? '
Tom Workman: I don't know specifically. But if I were to go in there and I was
going to spend money on big rent , it would definitely be on my mind. And a
consideration and that's what this has been for me and my partner, Dale who I
thought would be here tonight . I handle the city stuff.
Mayor Chmiel: He said he didn't want to be here. ,
Tom Workman: But that was definitely a consideration. Bob can tell you. It 's
a consideration. It 's a necessity these days for people to know where you're at
and that 's the discussion we've had with the HRA and the traffic study is that
31 1
I
C ur . .'.; it ; M,_, 6. 1Q?1
it 's not ju_t to be an identifier that once I know where you are I can go there
and i` t�11 _, m- you're there. It 's for people that drive by and see that every
. day It 's advertising. Whether you're doing business with me or not . So we do
wart it ° :_n. We want it visible. Goldstar Mortgage wanted their's visible.
' They've told me they've paid for that sign 5 times over because a gentleman from
N:r4h Carolina just happened into town. He's going to be in the area.
Tra :ferred and they were driving around town. He stopped in. Saw the mortgage
co•:,,. `'-, and got a mortgage there. He wouldn't have known it otherwise. So in
the contir aticn of all the discussions I've had about business and downtown and
2rf : .srythirj else, this is just one more little thing and I apologize
fo:- c.uttir:g ; c: all in this situation. I don't think we're asking for a whole
lot . I thirA tha sign itself with the individual letters is high quality and
that 's what we want it to be so. Do you want to see this?
11 MW; Chmiel : Okay. Rry other discussion?
Councilwomen Dimler: What is it?
Mayor Chmiel: It 's an existing building.
' Councilwoman rimier: In Chaska?
b.c Chm sl - Fight on the main street . TH 41. Okay. I guess I'll take a
lead cr thi :. because of who you are or because you sit on the Council.
That ' - not v stle. I do want to clarify that . But if I were in business I
would war,' t - make sure that whatever I have is seen and visible. I also feel
that loo! ira at a 3 foot space, I'm sure they don't want to detract from that
I huiir: The building in itself sells the clients that are there as well.
b:h-t I s. a 3 fort with the 1 foot letter doesn't really bother me or even
cet' in: a ',7-ecedcnt within the city. I guess from what the recommendation was
frcq th Planning Commission, it was a 24 with a 10 inch. In order to really
11 shop• th.:' sign, be able to depict it from driving as you're going through, I
third tNa '_ what sells the individual. They're there to make money at what
they're doing because I'm sure the. . . for having that facility is costly enough
as wsll . Put nonetheless I think the building in itself is large enough to
support that Bind of sign. I think if we were to have any further discussions
in lock.r; at 3 foot signs on a smaller building would probably present a
problem and I think that 's what we have to really look at . As I see it , with
the 3 fool with 1 font letters, I guess that doesn't bother me any. I think it
blends. Michael?
Councilman Mason: It kind of sounds like design standards and business and
signage are all meeting at the same spot here and there certainly has been much
to do about this. I appreciate, I'll use the formal Councilman Workman's candor
' in bringing this up before the body and really staying out of it in terms of the
da.cision making process. Certainly as it should be. In terms of design, I
agree with the Planning Commission about for continuity and all of that . It
probably should be 2 feet across. I think from business standpoint I see the s
need for 3 feet . I understand the bind that the people in that building are in
in this position. We certainly want to attract more business into Chanhassen.
Certainly I think in the past there have been far uglier ways than this to try
and attract that business. From looking at that scale drawing and driving past
32
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 1
tho' buiicir,g twice a day for a number of years, well ever since it 's been
there, yea' I too can live with 3 feet in the middle there.
Councilmar Wino: Well this is certainly a difficult issue over a sign and it 's
been worked to death. And some really fine talented, educated people with a lot
r,"re lnoeJedge of this issue than me have looked at this and debated it for
hours and hour_ and hours. People that are designers. Myself. Planning .
Coo,sl:e-ion. What an impecable group of people they are as far as their
educational standards to look at something like this and the Planning Commission
has recommended that we stay within the 24 inch sign stripe. City staff has
loose:' at it . I have probably given this particular issue more time than any
other one irl the city so far. I've sat across the street with my wife and
friends who are in urban design and architects who've sketched it and looked at
it and we 've decided that it 's a very high impact building. It's a gateway
building It 's a professional building. The present lettering is very '
sophisticated looking and that the fact that we went to a logo with colors on
the building was in fact a significant compromise. After having spent a lot of
time debating this we felt , and I guess I should say specifically I felt _that
the 24 inch band is a significant impact on this building. If we break from the
2.1 inch, I have no qualms at all with going to the 4 foot . If we're after
=dvertising and helping the businessman, I think the 3 foot is a waste of time .
if w= 're going to break from the existing 2 foot band, I see no problem at all
with the original request for 4 feet . At that point the difference becomes
irrelrvsnt . We've taken the center section and kind of turned it into an
ad)ertising panel and I have no problems with that if that's what the Council
chooses to do. I think the 3 foot is almost a moot point . We either stay
within the evicting architectural design and it 's intent or the 4 foot is more
than acc,r-table to me. We can go on all day with these arguments but they're
just old so I guess based on my respect for the Planning Commission and the work
thc' ' e put into this and staff, I'm going to stay remaining with the 24 inches.
With all du ' respect to Councilman Workman.
Counc:lworr.an Dimler: I don't think I'm going to vote on this one Mr. Mayor.
No. C`. gee . I think the comments, everything that 's been said has been pretty
much on and I can see both sides. I did happen to notice that there was a big
cFlure, in the paper on this particular building last week and it was pretty
much advertised as a professional building. That 's what I think it is. I can
see if you 're going to compare it to retail businesses like the Brooke's over
here and signs all along there. The Glenrose Floral and so forth, I can see
them having their types of signs because they're the kinds of businesses that
people, as they drive by and they maybe see the Little Ceasars and decide I'm
hungry for pizza, they drive in and that's the kind of business that draws that
kind of, that signage would draw people in just off the street . In a
professional building I see that a little bit different because I don't see
customers, like even for insurance or patients going to their doctors or clients
for a lawyer, they normally know where their doctor or lawyer or insurance agent
is located. I don't see too many people driving by and saying well, I think I'm
going to buy some insurance or I've got to go see my doctor real quick or
something of that nature. And so for that reason I do believe that the 2 feet ,
let me sec if I'm saying this right, is adequate. Also because the building is.
so close to the road, I have absolutely no trouble with visibility. I think
it 'd be very, very visible. I stated that I think that businesses that have a
logo ought to be able to use that logo and that the color is not a problem for
33 '
IICl' . COLrei!_ meeting - May 6, 1991
me either . I would like to see us stay uniform on the building. I can't see
an • son:: , a_ Richard says, why the 3 feet . Then you might as well go to 4 if
c ' -b r,:)t going lo stay uniform. Also I have a concern in that , although I
mieh' wart to do a favor for Bcb and Tom, I do have a concern that this signage
pa_'kagc goc= with the building when that building changes ownership and Tom may
nest b= there forever. So I want to make sure that I can live with what is there
aftc,- these two are gone. Therefore I think it is setting a precedence for
other profe_,sionr1 buildings in the future and I would like to see us stay with
the rccomrr-nd tions of the Planning Commission.
Win;: Mr . Mayor , one other comment when appropriate.
Mayor Chmiel : Well , I just keep looking at , I think from what Bob proposed as
his o_i` ,-,-, 4 font to a 3 foot was a compromise from that standpoint and I like
' conprcrr,i:inc,. Even though the Planning Commission's recommendation was 24 and I
underst —c! the' . 24 inches. I guess I just don't , if I were in that particular
buildno, I could get little larger letters to make that visibility for me to
, ; +tl - more business and that 's why they're there. 4 feet I think was
a little excessive. 3 feet to me I felt very comfortable with. With that , I
guess I would ilk: to, in fact I'm going to make the motion. I hadn't intended
to. I wrulr" like to move that motion that the City Council approve Site Plan
Am:r,d-cnt t;CC-17 to amend the signage plan for Chanhassen Medical Arts/Ridgeview
Medical F;rtc building subject to the following conditions. To just make that
sin ma .,imum haig'--t to change from the 24 to the 36 inches with no individual
letters higher than 12 inches. And the balance of the staff recommendations to
rer�si7 as Is there a second?
Councilverar; Dialer: Just a minute. Before I vote on that .
Ma,w Chmiel : I'd like a second first .
C ouni._} !-_son: I'll second it .
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm not real sure. I may be overlooking something but I
' don't understand condition 5 with the traffic signs. Could somebody explain
that ?
Paul Krause: That was at the applicant 's request . It 's talking about
directiorc1 signs in the parking lot . Typically they're smaller than 4 x 4
signs and they say parking this way, exit that way.
Councilwoman Dimler: They're not going to be on the building?
Paul Kraus.. No.
' Co :r:cilwcm:n Dimler: Thank you.
Councilman Mason: Ursula, a question. You commented that you thought that
peorie should be able to use their logo on it . Now according to Councilman
Workman, he said 2 feet isn't big enough for his logo.
11
34
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 II
Councilwoman Dimler: You know they have those American Insurance all over the I
benches wherever, have you ever seen them on the benches? Those are 2. feet and
they are very visible.
Tom Workman: Ursula, these are individual metal lit neon. Not spray painted on
a sheet of plastic.
Councilman Mason: So you're talking about something completely different than '
the stencil thing?
Tom Workman: Oh yeah. Individual raised letters. '
Councilwoman Dimler: You're not talking about the same sign that you see on the
benches then? '
Tom Workman: Oh no. Or the same one that I have now. That 's a big plastic
bubb].e. More like the Burnet . Burnet Realty. This is just like the Goldstar
sign. Each letter by itself. Metal. Metal letters. Individual raised metal
letters with the neon.
Brad Johnson: Can I speak to something technical? '
Councilwoman Dimler: And it 's going to be lit up at night?
Mayor Chmiel: Not yet . Just a second. 1
Councilman Mason: It 's going to be lit up at night?
Councilman Wing: The issue really is the lighting because they can't light less
than 3 feet .
Councilman Mason: Right . Well, isn't it 10 inches?
Councilwoman Dimler: Is that the only sign that's going to be lit?
Tom Workman: No, they're all lit .
Councilman Mason: Goldstar's lit . I
Bob Copeland: These are individual letters now. Now this needs to be 10
inches. We need to have 1 inch inbetween which is squeezing it. It's tight .
This we could live with 10 inches. This I guess we need a couple inches there.
The height from here to here needs to be 8. Now when you add all these up,
you've got 35 inches. And this is an individual bar or box. I've got something
a little wrong but the point I'm trying to make is that this is an individual
piece and it's got a neon tube inside and it can only be a certain minimum
thickness and have the clearances around this neon tube. Each one of these
letters is an individual letter and has a neon tube inside and there's a limit
to how small you can make this and still have each letter individually lit. Now
we have had the feeling that having these individual letters and individual
pieces makes it a much more attractive sign than just the cabinet or box with
the painted logo on it . So this is what we've been trying to accomplish.
35 '
1
II ' City Council Meting -- May 6, 1991
Councilwoman Dimler: I would like to ask Paul Krauss a question as to how he
feels if this would be precedence setting for the future, being that you're the
planner -
, Paul Krauss : Well, yeah it probably would be. Now the question is, is that
good or bad? There are good points to this as a precedent . When we've got the
individual letters of a certain minimum size with a standardized set of sign
covenants on this building, I can point to that for the next building that comes
in and demands the _ame kind of quality. The question or whether or not these
letters should be 10 inches or 12 inches or the height should be 2 foot or 3
foct or the sign box. I have a real tough time giving you- a good recommendation
on that . I mean visually it 's not going to be real different . I have a little
bit of a problem designing a sign covenants for a specific sign for one tenant .
You really should come up with a standard that works for everybody across the
' board but I can't tell you that this is a significant impact or a significant
visual problem because I honestly don't think that that 's the case. I wish I
would be more definitive for you Councilwoman Dimler but I have a tough time
Idoing that .
Councilman Mason: Can I follow up with another question then?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Councilman Mason: Do you see this, as I understand your concern about doing
' covenants for one tenant , do you see this recommendation, the motion as it
stands as workable with other signage issues?
Paul Krauss: Well keep in mind that this is a sign for a specific tenant . I
think it will work for a lot of tenants but what if the next tenants comes in
and has a logo that is 42 inches high and it doesn't work unless it's reduced?
What do you do then? Do you then say the increment is only 6 inches aprove what
' you approved before or is this the bottom line? I mean this is the problem
we've had with this project from the start . It 's a moving target . The standard
keeps changing. Now we're comfortable with this if this becomes the operative
standard and it 's not changed in the future for the next person. But that 's the
problem you have when you design for a specific tenant .
' Brad Johnson: Just a point of clarification. We do deal with a lot of signs
and I'll say this. I think that Chanhassen, even though you don't think you
have a real good sign ordinance.
Mayor Chmiel: Excuse me.
Brad Johnson: Brad Johnson, 7425 Frontier Trail. Still. One of the hardest
things to deal with is when, you've had a big movement from signs. When you go
over and look at the Hanus building currently we're blessed with a bunch of 4 x
8 signs that have been painted that we're trying to change over time and that's
the old kind of sign. Then they went to the cans which would be the enclosed,
plastic sign like the Toro's and things and then they put those on the side of
the buildings and they had some other things. The thing that we've been trying
to do in all our projects here locally is go to the individual lettered signs or
' neon lit signs because they seem to have a kind of classy look. So Town Square
and the new Market Square will all have that type of thing. It costs about 3
36
I
City Council M ' ing - May 6, 1991 II
times as much to do it that way as it would just having a simple can like the
current one on your current building.
Tom Workman: I can get one of those for about $250.00.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. It 's a completely different kind of a package. His
current sign would fit a 2 x 7 length. We would not allow it on the building
because it wouldn't look very good. What the sign standard people have done are
in our business t at are managing buildings are concerned about that but every
time , this is a tough logo but everytime you run into a logo, you have a
problem. Some places I've seen it done this way which might be a compromise is
that they simply say the letters can be stacked 2 high. Not to exceed therefore
about 24 inches. But if you have a logo, the logo height , the logo itself can
go 1 1/2 times the height of your lettering which allows for some flexibility in
design of the sign if somebody has like, I don't know kind of canned logo that
would fit in and that 's pretty common to see. Where the logo itself is allowed
to exceed the height of the letter in a lot of nice looking buildings. You
don't think about it until you actually have to go out and apply for a sign
permit whether it 's in Bloomington or Eden Prairie or places like that . I think
the key here though, this sign is probably a $3,000.00-$3,500.00 sign. We're
paying for it because that 's what we want on that building because we want to
look good. And as far ,_ s the professional building question comes up, I have a
doctor that specializes in veins and guess what he wants? His choice is to go
to TH 4 and TH 5 or here and he's got equal rent . He wants the one with the
best sign. He's a doctor. He's trying to decide whether to go in the First
Bank Building. You know where that is? Or here. This is a very standard
problem with the current process of marketing these products that people want to
know what their business is. So I think if you look for a compromise, we could
limit the letters to two stacked no higher than 2 feet . It's just when we run
into these logo situations that we have to have a little bit of flexibility
because you can't do that one this way.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Any other discussion?
Councilman Wing: I feel I was really being fair to Tom in looking at the 2
feet . I don't know where you saw this sign but I just happened to see a 2 foot
American Family sign from across a 4 lane road and it was the American Family
logo with the agents name and number above it and it was clearly visible so I
tried to relate that to the building with this layout and it just did not seem
to be penalizing you to keep within the 2 feet .
Tom Workman: What kind of sign? '
Councilman Wing: That 's the key here. It was just a flat , painted board sign.
It doesn't take into account the lighting which is another issue here.
Brad Johnson: His sign right now, the one in front of the building is 2 feet by
7 feet down by MGM. We could put that up as it is with the lettering but that's
not what we want because that 's not in keeping with the building. That's where
we're coming from.
Councilman Mason: Well in my opinion the neon is certainly classier. ,
37
II ' 'C:t , Council Mo.cting - May 6, 1991
Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Site Plan Amendment
#88-17 to amend the signage plan for Chanhassen Medical Arts/Ridgeview Medical
Arts building subject to the following conditions:
1 . Th,z-re will be a maximum of 3 signs in Area C.
2. ThE maximum sign height will not exceed 36 inches with no individual letters
11 higher than 12 inches.
3. Sign covenants shall be revised to prohibit temporary signage, either wall
' mounted or ground mounted excepting temporary lease signs for which criteria
will be established by staff.
4. Sign covenants shall be revised to include a statement that all signage must
11 he approved and permitted by staff.
5. Traffic signs allowed in accordance with City Codes.
6. The sic,n covenants shall be drafted in a recordable format and recorded
against the title of the parcel in question, with the city involved in the
I chain-oftit1e.
yr Chmiel and Councilman Mason voted in favor. Councilman Wing and
Councilwoman Dimler opposed. The motion was tied with a vote of 2 to 2.
' Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, they have such valid points. In the history of the
world this isn't going to make a diddily. We're not even going to get honorable
I mention on this one. On the other hand, by voting yes, I deny hours and hours
or debate by the Planning Commission who I just hold in the highest esteem. I
almost feel guilty being under pressure here and suddenly making these changes.
I don't disagree with these people and they're reputable and they do fine work
' and Tom, I'm sorry about that vote. This is very difficult to turn on the
Planning Commission for me.
' Councilwoman Dimler: I guess my main point is that it stays with the building
after those two are gone. As much as I'd like to favor them, I just think it
sets a precedent that I may not be able to live with in the future.
Willy Molnau: I'm Willy Molnau. I live at 8541 Audubon Road, Chanhassen. Did
you count the number of people that said aye? How many people are on the
Council?
° Mayor Chmiel : There's 5 but one is excused from voting.
' Willy Molnau: Well I counted 4 in favor and 2 against so somebody voted twice.
Mayor Chmiel: No. The question was called. Those were for it said aye. There
was 2 and those that were opposed said they were opposed so it was 2 to 2.
Willy Molnau: Well from here it sounded different .
Councilwoman Dimler: It's a tie. Tom has to break the tie.
' 38
Cit ; Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 II
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, if I could. I don't want prolong this issue and I know
it 's rare for Brad and I to agree on anything like signage, especially in public
but Councilwoman Dimler your suggestion of whether or not this set a precedent
is a good one but I think Brad's point is well taken. His idea of using a 24
inch letter height and then setting a precedence for a logo that 's allowed to be
1 1/2 times higher than the letters makes some sense and that is a standard that
a lot of communities are going to because logos are often the problem. They're
always the thing that sticks up high or sticks up wide or whatever. That might
not he a bad precedent to consider. It's kind of tough to consider that kind of
precedent on the spur of the moment when it 's getting late at a Council meeting ,
but he's correct . A lot of communities are doing something like that and that
might be a reasonable thing to consider.
Councilman Mason: I just want to comment on what Councilman Wing said about
negating the Planning Commission. I think we go, I mean certainly we take input ,
from all commissions and all the people that we hear from and I'm only taking it
by how I voted. I'm not saying I'm necessarily, I don't disagree with the
design standards that the Planning Commission has set up and I think they're
very valid. However, I do think that as I'm learning more and more about this
job, that it 's not just a design standard that we're looking at here. Maybe
that 's worth nothing.
Councilman Wing: I'd like to ask to recall the motion.
•
Councilwoman Dimler: I would move to reconsider. ,
Councilman Wing: Second.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Wing seconded to reconsider the previous r
motion. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Mayor Chmiel: I'll entertain a motion. ,
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. At this point then we will move the original .motion
as stated by the Mayor with the 3 feet and 12 inch letters. ,
Mayor Chmiel: Does that take into consideration the logo design in itself?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes. Because of the logo design. And because Paul ,
indicates that that's going to be a good precedence in the future for signs that
have lighting.
Paul Krauss: Well if I could clarify that a bit. The proposal that Brad made
is a little bit different than the proposal that was before you tonight. He was
talking about a 24 inch letter height and then 1 1/2 times the letter height for
the logo so the logo could be 36 inches. If that was where you were going with
your motion. I'm not sure but that 's what I was agreeing.
Councilwoman Dimler: Well it 's not my intent for today to set the limits 1
forever. What they're asking for, if that isn't going to be a problem in the
future for you, then I would go with the original. That 's what they want , the
36. No. Yeah, 36 and 12. Or 10. They wanted 10 but you said 12. Is 12 okay
with you Tom?
39 1
•
1
IIi ! Co! r,;i i Meeting - May 6, 1991
' lourrllmar G' '. Oman On the letters?
Mayer- Chmie]] : If they go to the 10, that 's fine. The problem is just as long
as it doesn't exceed it
Fob Core lard: That 'e not that critical. The 10 or the 12 is not the critical
decision.
Councilwoman Dimler : Okay. So we'll leave it as the Mayor made it then and
then you can go with 10 if you want .
' Mc;or Cheir? : Okay. Is there a second?
Councilman Mason: Second.
' Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Site Plan
Amendment X88-17 to amend the signage plan for Chanhassen Medical Arts/Ridgeview
' Medical Arts building subject to the following conditions:
1 . There will be a maximum of 3 signs in Area C.
2. The maximum sign height will not exceed 36 inches with no individual letters
higher than 12 inches.
3. Cicn covenants shall be revised to prohibit temporary signage, either wall
mounter' or ground mounted excepting temporary lease signs for which criteria
will Le established by staff.
' 4. Sign covenants shall be revised to include a statement that all signage must
be approved and permitted by staff.
5. Traffic signs allowed in accordance with City Codes.
6. The sign covenants shall be drafted in a recordable format and recorded -
' against the title of the parcel in question, with the city involved in the
chain-of-title.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO CLARIFY ZONING ADMINISTRATOR AS PLANNING DIRECTOR,
FIRST AND SECOND READING.
1 Mayor Chmiel : This does not take very much. I would make a motion that we move
that the Zoning Administrator be changed to Planning Director.
Councilwoman Dimler: I so move.
' Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the first -
reading of an amendment to Section 20-1, Definitions, to state that the Zoning
' Administrator means Planning Director. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
' 40
1
City Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 1
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO CLARIFY WATER SURFACE USEAGE ORDINANCE, FIRST
READING.
Paul Krauss: Thank you Mr. Mayor. As you recall we brought this up before you
as a discussion item at the last meeting. There is a problem that exists in our
I/
surface water utility ordinance relative to how the fee, the quarterly fee is
placed upon agricultural land in rural residential and undeveloped land. What
we've been doing in house is figuring it on a one, you asked. This goes back to
a original discussion with ag land where the Council asked for fairly sensitive
treatment for it where ag land was going to be charged 1 residential unit per
quarter. And we've tried to do that but the ordinance itself didn't exactly say
that . What we've been doing is for every tax parcel that we find in the ag
district or rural residential, we charge them one unit , the $3.23 every 3
months. What we've done, well it's raised some questions in a couple ways. The
original ordinance for example in agricultural land said in agricultural lots
equalled the 40 acres. Technically what we should have done is if somebody had
120 acre lot , we should have charged it the 3 units. We did not do that . A
glitz came about though where you have some individual who owns 3 lots, 3 tax
parcels was getting 3 bills for each one and in one case, the Degler farm, they
actually combined two lots into a single parcel to avoid that very issue.
Anyway, what we did was we tried to fix the ordinance so it is now clear that
single family and rural residential lots, agricultural lots and undeveloped lots
are all assigned one unit on a tax parcel basis. We think from an
administ.rative standpoint this is the easiest way for us to apply it and from an
equity standpoint , it seems to be one of the more fair ways we could do it .
With that WE 'VE got the ordinance change for your consideration.
Mayor Chmiel : Thanks Paul. Any questions? Any discussion?
Councilman Wing: Since this was discussed last meeting, I would move approval
of the first reading of revision to Section 19-142.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the first reading of
the Revision to Section 19-142 of the City Code. All voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
COUNCIL PRESENTATION: '
SLIDE SHOW PRESENTED TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND PARK AND RECREATION
COMMISSION ENTITLED "PRESERVING THE BLUFF CREEK WATERSHED", PRESENTED BY PERRY '
DEAN AND ERIK ROTH, COUNCILMAN WING.
Paul Krauss: Mr. Dean and Mr. Roth came to talk to Todd Hoffman and myself
several months ago. They grew up in this area and have been hiking Bluff Creek
since they were kids and have become fairly skilled naturalist. Highly
experienced in the kinds of wildlife and plantlife we find down in Bluff Creek.
Their original intent in coming before Todd and myself was to see if there's
some mechanism that the City could use to protect this area. It 's an area
that 's basically only been protected by nature of the fact that it 's too
difficult to develop. Otherwise the ordinances right now don't do anything
about that . The City owns a small section of it that we obtained when some
41 '
CI' `,_, ,r, Mc j - May 6, 1991
plattin- was undertaken. A very large area is on Bluff Creek Golf Course. What
we indicated was that in the Comprehensive Plan the idea of being sensitive to
th_ bluff line and the Bluff Creek corridor is in the Comprehensive Plan. I
we n't ._ actly sure on how we'd follow up on that but the Planning Commission
hae' alrr_ad; discussed it previously and we've had ongoing efforts in that
r.ega: i In fact we do have a bluff line protection ordinance coming to the
Planning Commission for the first time next week. Now I don't expect that to be
11 coming to you right away because we're in the process of doing maps to define
the bluff line -and at we'd like to do is take the opportunity to go back and
notir all the residents who's property this occurs on and give them an
opportunity to come before the Planning Commission but we are working on that .
To get the ball rolling, we had a presentation given to the Park Board and to
the Planning Commission and it was quite informative and Councilman Wing has
asked that we have a similar one arranged for the City Council. Also, we are
having a tour of Bluff Creek corridor, about an hour long tour this Saturday led
by Mr. Dear, and Mr. Roth that will leave from the golf course. We've got
permission from the golf course. We'll park over in their parking lot and hike
down in there for a first hand look at this area at 9:00. With that I'll pass
it over.
Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, just a quick comment . As Paul mentioned, this was
presented to both Planning ommission and the Park and Rec. At one of those
meetings that I attended, somebody made a comment about what had staff done
abort purruir:g this Bluff Creek issue. I happened to be there and I suggested
at thEt time that it would be inappropriate to do anything unless the City
Council kr,,. w what they were talking about and that 's when I asked Mr . Ashworth
if we could put this on the Council agenda so the Council would in fact know
' what the commissions were up to, or at least in their thinking.
Perry Dean: Thank you for inviting us out here. My name is Perry Dean and this
is Erik Roth. As you heard, we grew up in the Lake Minnetonka area and started
coming down to Bluff Creek in the early 60's. We kind of discovered this you
know as school boys and riding down here on our bicycles and we've been coming
down here for the past 30 years to what we have come to realize is a very
' spcci, l place. I think that very few people even in Chanhassen are aware of
>oti have here which is really quite a gem. It 's off the beaten track. It 's
between roads. It 's between developments. There really isn't any way to get in
there that easily and what has been preserved here is a beautiful example of the
' Big Woods ecological system characterized by the maple basswood. Here you can
see birch. Cottonwood trees down on the bottom. Oaks. Hickory and of course
the maple and the basswood which are the hallmarks of the Blau Forte, as the
french called it or the Big Woods. At one time this was a very extensive
ecological area which covered south central Minnesota which has been whittled
away a.nd eliminated mainly by agriculture so there are really very few examples
G‘ tH still existing. One noted example is Neurstrand Woods down by
Northfield and another very good example is right here. Bluff Creek. Down in
the valley where very, very few people get down in here, there are beautiful
1 woodland terraces. Very fertile. Very profuse wild flowers in the spring.
Right now it 's just at the height of the time. I'm sure you see the wild
flowers elsewhere in Chanhassen. It 's really spectacular. Along the edges of
Bluff Creek are fairly steep cliffs and this has been part of the reason why it
' has been so isolated. It 's been impossible for development to go in here and it
has not been easy to put roads in here. These cliffs here are in fact natural
1 42
:you. ei Meeting - May 6, 1991 11
features of Bluff Creek. It 's just the nature of the material there and the
far that we are kind of on the edge of the prairie province here. As you go
weft a'cn; the rivers, the Missouri River for example you'll start to see bare
cliff; like this. It is a natural process. However, it has been aggravated
particularly by development , agriculture and drainage. This is Bluff Creek. It
p;-oba` r;- is fuller than that right 'now. I can almost guarantee. This is a good
year right here . This picture. In fact , Bluff Creek does dry up in drought
years and several times in the 70's and several times in the BO's. In fact the
bed of the creek was dry for the most part . Here and there a few beds of
spr"inc: This is a case in point . One of the beds of springs which is down at
th: tottom of the valley. The lower end of the valley. In fact this is in 21
acres which is owned by the City of Chanhassen and it 's called Bluff Creek Park.
Thie particular bed of springs right here is probably a good candidate for a
calcareous f,_n which is a protected sort of very specialized ecological
environment which occurs along the Minnesota River down, Black Dog Prairie.
There er several others in Savage and I believe that this is probably a very
good candidate here too. These calcareous fens are of a special concern like of
the 0h7 and Minnesota Heritage Commission because they have a very rare,
specialized suite of plants that live with them. The water that comes out of
these spring_ is very clear and it 's very rich in the calcareous, the limestone
that you can see in the bed of the creek here. However there are problems.
This is in that same area. The lower end of the creek and over the past few 1/
year: due to probably imprudent drainage up on the east side there near the golf
come . No' a- tually the golf course itself, one of the gullies has opened up
so enormous amounts of gravel and sand have come down. Many cubic yards of sand
and gravel have come down. Have gone all the way to the delta has gone all the
way across the valley and has actually forced the creek .onto the far side of the
vallc, . So it is endangering that spring right there to which is right at the
baem of that cedar tree right there. So these are some of the dynamic things
that are happening at Bluff Creek in the valley right now. But much of it is
ver; pristine. Very beautiful. Definitely worth preserving. This is Bluff
Creek in the winter. A wonderful place to ski. Maybe not for everybody but
it 's a beautiful place to ski. Now the valley of Bluff Creek is an open
textbook of the geology of Chanhassen and just a brief synopsis has to do with
the Wisconsin glaciation which of course came through this area 12,000 years
ago. This was the last glacier of the ice age. Came through, the Des Moines
Lobe it particular came down from northwestern Minnesota and Manitoba lowlands.
Scooped up enormous amounts of limestone and cretaceous shale and gives the
glacial drift the characteristic light color that it has here. Subsequent to
that , the Des Moines Lobe retreated northward after dumping enormous amounts of
material here in Chanhasse forming what's called a terminal marine with many
lakes and swamps and it's what characterises the topography of Chanhassen. As
the glacier retreated northward it dammed up an enormous lake in -northwestern
Minnesota called Lake Ogasies. This lake drained down through the Minnesota
River valley. Formed the Minnesota River valley. Cut down through all these
deposits and then Bluff Creek of course is a tributary of that . This all just
happened in the last 10,000 years which by geological standards is very recent ,
but very interesting history nevertheless. Here you can see the material that's
been deposited. I'm sure if you live in Chanhassen it has a very familiar look
to it . Clay and lots of banding of iron. Here's a little lethology lesson.
The rock material . You probably have seen the stippled pebbles on the right
there which are limestone which has been stained with iron. . .in the drift. The
iron solution has come around and stained the pebbles. And on the bottom you
43 1
I ' Cif,- Courc' 1 Mectin; - May 6, 1991
Gee the cretaceous shale and granite on the left there and the piece of
limea :ite which is iron ore, another Minnesota feature in the upper left hand
there . But you can see that light color is due to the very, very high content
of lir:stone in the drift . In fact , in places it is so rich in limestone
powdor . powccred limestone that it 's actually formed a natural concrete like
th. ar:-' ti'r is something I've never seen anywhere else. It seems to be a
unique feature to this particular area of Chanhassen and southern Lake
Minnetonka area . But it actually forms boulders of material which looks very
much like concrete and this is of course the same material that they've quarried
over in Chaska for the Chaska brick which you see in a lot of the old farm
1 houses and farm buildings. But the forest in Bluff Creek is a classic example
of the maple basswood forest . Many maples and basswood and at one time many elm
trees L„' cf course the elm holocaust came through Chanhassen in the late 70's
and ^'.s so now there's many large trucks of dead elms lying around on the floor-
in variou': parts of the valley. And they're being succeeded by the winners in
this situation which are the maple trees which has been their strategy to sit
man/, many, many little seedlings on the forest floor waiting for that light to
occur coo' than they all bolt upwards. So it is selecting for maple which is I
thin. a desireable quality. Here's a couple of the maples. Of course this is,
the name Chanhassen is maple tree in Dakota. These are the same two trees with
their fall foliage and they do the same thing every year. One tree is gold and
the one tree is red and they're both sugar maples. Other trees are red oaks and
white oaks. This is white oak here. And on the forest floor, particular in
maple forests, they're very rich because of the enormous amount of nutrients
' that maple trees in particular draw up into their leaves and when they drop them
on tha forest floor it enriches the soil. So particular in maple forests you'll
see just incredibly rich undergrowth, wild flowers, etc. . Here we have rue
I anemones, yellow woodland violets, rattlesnake fern and purple violets. These ,
are the first flowers to appear each spring. These are the hepatacus and you
probably see them in other places in Chanhassen. In Bluff Creek they just
' carpet the floor. On some of the terraces it 's just incredible to see the
display which is actually going on right now. It 's currently happening. The
first week in May is the height of the time. And then the bloodroots are an
early flower that come in. Virginia waterleaf. Red bainberry. Many ferms.
' Wide variety of ferns. These are maidenhair ferns here. You can see it 's a
very lush growth. These are lady ferns. Cutleaf tooth warts. A wide variety
of flowers in here. I think it 's one of the most spectacular displays of wild
flowers that I've seen in the Metro area. And there are some rare and
protected plants here. These are the yellow lady slippers. There are showy
orchids in here and we've also found gingseng in Bluff Creek which is an
endangered plant . At one time it was very common in the Minnesota woodlands and
Wisconsin woodlands but it has been hunted to the edge of extinction because of
it 's medicinal properties of it 's root. It's been harvested so there's very few
places where it still remains but there is gingseng in Bluff Creek. Down in
' some of the lower parts of the valley there are actually open grassy areas which
are native prairies. They're actually native prairies down there with the
classic native prairie grasses, side oats gramma and there are some of the
' prairie flowers. This is the hairy pecoon here. So Bluff Creek has a wide .
variety of habitats. Here you can see some of the cedar trees. It has little
open meadows. It has many, many areas for wildlife to live. Very protected
area. Quite an ecosystem there. There's a deer herd in there. A number of
' deer . In the 70's beaver moved into the northern part of the valley and started
moving down and building dams and significantly changing the nature of the
t 44
•
Cit > Council Meeting - May 6, 1991 1
vc'17. cnc then thF', all got washed out in 1986, or whenever the super storm
w3- . '06 : ge: c that was. All the beaver dams got washed out and we really
t much sign of them since but there's quite a bit of wildlife in here.
Gaav and racoons and fox. I'll just leave you with 'this parting shot . It 's a
he st _ `ul corn of a place and like I say, very few people know about this. We
would br very happy to take you down there as announced which will be this
coring Saturday at 9:00. We'll be meeting at the Bluff Creek Golf Course. And
with that I'll turn it over to Erik Roth who will talk to you about some of the
w: r k that he has done in the past . Things that are ongoing now and then maybe
some things in the future. Thank you very much.
Erik. Roth: Thank you. I'll just be brief here. We are abbreviating our
program from what we gave at the Planning Commission and Park Board with respect
tc the late hour. But one of the distinguishing qualities of this valley and
the feature which probably more than anything else up to now has maintained it 's
scsiu_icr, and protected it was the railroad that had it 's grade maintained by an
earthen die built across the mouth of the valley and then there's a culvert
that through that . This is on the bluff looking across the railroad below I
and then tl--_. Minnesota River valley in the distance. This is the creek running
through that culvert . Emptying down into the Minnesota River wetlands and right
ah')k. e that , on top of the railroad tracks looking up creek you can see the lower
part cf the valley. The part that Perry was describing that holds some of the -
prairic land and the property that Chanhassen owns. On the previous slide in
t `s far distance, this picture was taken looking back now. The shadow running
acroes the center of the picture is off that railroad embankment and as
I p-o_eed here, most of the remaining slides that I have are taken within the
value;. And if I might quote from some remarks made by Frederick Law Olmstead
4,_e recuested to advise the Minneapolis Park Board when it was trying to get
organized back in the last century. In 1886 he said that the most important
condition a permanent value in a park is that it shall be self contained. That
is , that the recreation of it 's natural scenery shall not be disturbed and
-,_ ;tralized !'y the mingling with it 's proper scenes of objects of different
characters such as houses situated on high ground about it and that cannot be
planted out . One of the special qualities of this valley is that once you're
within it , the whole outside world is totally unknown to you and you are in a
world apart from it all. And so one of the qualities which is, as Olmstead was
remarking on, pertinent to the aesthetic nature of a park, here also is an
advantage to the ecological character of this place. And besides the main creek
coupe there are tributary valleys which also are rich in a variety of wildlife
and environments. And as you can tell, it definitely looks as though it could
be anywhere in the North Woods and hardly in a developing region such as this.
Over the years we've tried to alert various organizations about this valley.
We've taken members of the Nature Conservancy down through it's course. We've
given presentations to the Riley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek Watershed District
manaccre. Talked to one of Paul Krauss' precedessors on the Chanhassen Planning
Commission and have had a real favorable response now by both the Planning and
the Park Commissions so we're very eager to take as many people as we can to
this place. We think once it 's known, it can sell itself. Here is one of the
more prominent bluffs giving the name to the creek. It truly is a spectacular
place and it seems to be deceptive in scale as ;ell. It looks to this picture -
lik.= it 's quite vast , although the edges are quite thin. In fact here you can
see right through and along the bluff line and this picture can indicate how -
pr:ecious each individual tree is along that bluff line. The changes that
45
II • •Ci' Co Jr,cl ] Meeting - May 6, 1991
rater il / occur over time and in any ecological environment can be tolerated so
107 e there is sufficient margin and so we're anxious that you consider
protecting not only the valley floor or it 's side but a little of it 's edges as
well . Ar,J c feel that if you do so, this could be quite a significant
component to your comprehensive plan of green space and open space for the whole
r ` Checccn. There has been some development in recent years. We don't have
very can:; pictures of that . Generally we've been taking pictures of the more
wild things. There have been houses built from the subdivided farms that are up
on the edge: now. There is of course a golf course along one side. But as you
kn,w. the whole landscape of Chanhassen itself is changing rapidly and a scene
such as this is going to be part of the past by and large. I would hope that
1 farms could still be integrated into this community but certainly as far as
Bluff Creek is concerned, some protection is necessary, especially with the
coming cf Highway 212 which will cross this picture. Bluff Creek falls below in
' the distance here but we feel that the impact of that highway, as well as the
continued development and the turning of farmland into housing will bring much
more pressure onto this property and make it even more valuable. So if I might
1 just conclude by one more remark quoted from the same history of the Minneapolis
park system. The principle architect of Minneapolis' park system which is
Professor Cleveland who in his remarks in 1883 to the City of Minneapolis. He
.d. pardon mc for thue dwelling upon a subject with details of which you must
F° mere familiar than I can be. My only object is to impress this point
etrongl) upon you when considering the arrangement of the system of parks and
public improvements. If you have faith in the future greatness of your city, do
_- � not shrink from securing while you may such areas as will be adequate to the
want -, of such a city. Do not be appalled at the thought of appropriating lands
which secs, new too costly simply because they are far out of proportion to your
present wants. That was precisely the feeling which prevented the purchase of
' Nicellet Inland when it might have been had for a sum which now seems
contemptible. Look forward for a century to a time when the city has a
pop"'etion of a million and think what will be their wants. They will have the
wealth enough to purchase all that money can buy but all their wealth cannot
purchase this lost opportunity or restore natural features of grandeur and
H auty which would then possess priceless value in which you can preserve for
' thee if you will but say the word and save them from the destruction which
certainly awaits them if you fail to utter it . I might also add that Mr.
Cleveland said that he chose to be ignorant of the ownership of all of the
Property in which he was considering in making his recommendations to
' Minneapolis so that he might be not swayed in that regard and his interest be
only for the public good. I might say that even though we have followed the his
history of this valley for about 30 years, we too are relatively ignorant of who
owns whst property. It nonetheless is something which I bring to your attention
now . It certainly has a price but we feel at the same time is really priceless.
Thank you very much.
Ma or Chmiel: Thank you. Appreciate it . Absolute pure wonderment that exists
within our own city. It 's really neat to see that somebody takes the interest
that you do. We really appreciate the fact that you took time out to come down
here and show us this. I know the one set up for 9:00 on Saturday, I can't be
there. I've got to be down to the airport unfortunately picking up some people_
but sometime I might just explore that area anc:just walk through. There really
a°e tine there that you just don't have within the city anywhere else.
46
- May 6, 1991 ' '
C: t.':;rknan I can be there.
cc , „ - ". or : I'm planning to be there.
L'orkr.:: : I stood on the bluff of Daryl Peterson's farm. That ':
Lo; der in Eden Prairie. When you stand on that bluff right
, i1: arc; this isn't exactly near Bluff Creek. You stand on that bluff
ar,J j see Celle Plaine. You can see Savage.
Me, s You can see further.
C:L Cir,ler : There's a song like that isn't there? On a clear day you ,
ca cc, f revE-r .
There will be 3 of the council people there. Thank you. '
MINNESOTA SUBURBAN NAACP MEETING, MAYOR CHMIEL.
T` r.icl : Next item on the agenda is, I just wanted to briefly mention
thi^ I 'd '_iie hopefully someone to be able to attend. I got a letter from the
Ma, .. of tNr_ Cit / of Edina requesting that we have someone attend the Suburban
It ': going to be held at the City of Edina at 11:00. I unfortunately am.
goi; lo haun to be out of town in Redwing all day that day so if there's anyone
make that , please indicate. If not , I'd like to have someone from
staff atter,d it if none of the council people would be able to. I
certa inly
inly
__ i lo _ _e someone take that time out to find out .
Cc_ n,cit nan b''rg: It 's on a Wednesday? ,
Mc c- Chriel ' This coming Wednesday. In fact , tomorrow.
Councilwoman Dimler: Day after tomorrow. '
Councilman Workman: I'm unable to attend.
Ccr. r_iiwo,m,:n Dimler: I'm not able to either. '
Maycsr Chmicl : Richard.
Co"-.:il„an korrran I've
�e been contacted by these people.
Mayor Cheiel : Yes. We get letters each year. I
Councilman Workman: I mean as a business person who's a city council member.
ME/or Cheiel : Okay, we'll keep moving. Next item on the agenda is, let 's move
to 9(c ) End then we'll go up to the comprehensive plan. Once we've addressed
that , wc can save maybe a dollar or two.
MOON VALLEY AGGREGATE UPDATE, CITY ATTORNEY.
Elliot Kr:rtsch: Okay, an update on Moon Valley would be that there was a
action in Court recently. The Court upheld the City's ordinance. Said we did
47 ,
1
I ' `it r, . i1 _ May 6, 1991
t ` f rioht ' e require Moon Valley to come in and get a permit . So they are
to de that within 30 days of the Court order. Paul, nothing has changed? We
heyer 't hr_ ,rd r-_m them?
pec r',-= e- No. They have not been in contact .
Elliott Knctsch: If they fail to come in and get a permit , then we go back to
' court to shut them down. It 's as simple as that . If they do come. in and apply
for a permit , then - go through the permit process. There's a number of areas
'll q,_t into. If they think something is onerous or unreasonable and it can't
be wor[ ed cut between the city and them, again it could go back to Court . So at
t' is coint we're just waiting for their application.
Paul Krauts : I think it 's fair to say that we've got a long and frustrating
road a ;:=ad of us with these guys. My guess is that they're likely to come in
with a completely inadequate application just before the deadline and then we'll
have to contest that they didn't adequately meet the ordinance. And then when
1 we actually do grant them approval with conditions, they'll fight the
condition_,. So be prepared for a long bumpy road on this one. I keep getting
calls from some of the residents down there that keep saying well didn't you
promise me this and that . I said no. We told you that it was-going to be
litigated to death. Terry and Dick Vogel and there's two or three others that
call fairly often on it . We've also, Roger is researching, one of the issues
that car: up a long time ago was whether they had a right to be digging up on
tr.}= . Whether or not that was grandfathered in. We're re-researching that and I
hee-r;'t hoard back but I know Roger said Jim Walston has been digging through
t4 p -cr-rty tax records on that so we'll do everything we can but I know that
CC,t a fundamental difference of opinion with Mr. Zwiers. I had a meeting
with him about a month and a half ago when they talked about coming in for a
permit , which they never did, and Tom was basically. The ordinance says you've
get to give us information on where the mature trees are on the property and his
' recpons.e was. , well why do I have to do that . I'm cutting down every one of them
.anyway. SD I thick we're coming from two different points of view on that . By
the woe , this bluff line ordinance does factor into this a little bit. Now of
1 course we 're not doing this bluff line ordinance to do anything to Moon Valley
but it affects the same area so we're having Roger take a look at that as well.
Mayor Chrriel : Any questions? Okay, appreciate it . Thank you.
UPDATE ON COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, PLANNING DIRECTOR.
' Paul Krauss: We're getting down to the wire on this. The Metro Council is
scheduled to hear us in committee a week from Thursday at 2:00 p.m. and then the
Metro Council itself is scheduled to hear it the following Thursday at 4:00
1 P.n. . We've not gotten any written responses from their staff. I've supplied
them volumes of information it seems like. Last we heard, they're looking for
rationale to support approving the plan but until I see it on paper I'm not
' going to believe it .
Mayor Chaici : Amen.
' Paul Krauss: We've been working with the City Manager and the Mayor and I have
been wcrkinj closely with our Metro Council rep. We met with Mary Anderson, the
' 48
1
Cit/ CoL Heil M,. ring - May 6, 1991 • '
new chair . Dor knows her. We had lunch with her and Bonnie Featherstone and
w barn basically trying to touch all the bases on this. If we have a
faY:reLle recommendation from their staff, I think it will go through. If we
d r , frankly we wanted to be in a position to pull out all the stops and make
a: Much 1ioise a: possible and that includes asking yourselves and the Planning
to Corn: down with some -large property owners and potential
devrl_operc. I' ve talked to a number of those. They're willing to do it as
well . Sc I will keep you posted. I've got a call into them, into the council
staff tccicall> a. 'sing them when we can expect a report . Hopefully I'll hear
tomorrow. I've also got a call into Dirk DeVries who is not our representative
but lye 's the representative from Minnetonka and Eden Prairie. I've known Dirk
for a long time . He, I believe is the chair of the first committee we have to
9c to so I d.rar going to ask him what sort of expectations they have from us in
presentations and what not . Along those lines, I just received word. I think
most of your might have heard that the Mayor and I were interviewed by Mike
Walther , WCCO TV about a month ago. They're doing a story, or a series of
stories on rapidly growing areas in the Twin Cities. I believe it starts
tc arrow night . We're the focus of one of their segments and I just heard it 's
Going to air at 10:00 on Wednesday on Channel 4.
Coou' _lac an, Wing: Talking about NSP or Chanhassen?
I/Pau: r'raucr : It was Chanhassen. I'm not sure what they're going to use but I
kr.c they, we gave them a list of. They asked the Mayor and I a series of
;Lae:tiers; and. 1
"'a=ter Chmiel : It will be interesting to see what 's going to be there.
Paul Krauss: Yeah, we had discussed it ahead of time and the premise was that '
�. wanted to make it clear that Chanhassen is not into this for growth for
growth sake but we're into this for quality development and we didn't have a
nuoLca WE were shooting for. We just wanted to do it right. They also
interviewed Chris Polster and his family as being representative of new
residents to the community. I think that about updates you.
Mavcr Chmiel : Yeah I just wanted to bring one quick thing out . Jim Curry, I
working with Mr. Quinn to resolve the issue of the trees and his furnishing
$2,962.00 worth just to satisfy the neighbors and adjacent. I think that's. . .
for Mr. Curry and thank you. '
Councilwoman Dimler: I do too. Yes, thank you.
Mayor fhmiel : There's only one other thing that I just wanted to address and t
I shot past it real quick. In the Administrative section we had letters from
Mrs. Stein's 3rd grade class with all the questions they were asking about
recycling. I think that 's the stage and age that we really have to start
addressing it right now so we have that continuance going on with the education
regarding recycling and all their specific questions that they had asked. I
think that 's pretty neat that they take the position, even in third grade and
move- on with it . I just wanted to say keep it up kids. You're doing great.
You're going to be the leaders of our society and hopefully we can put them in
the right direction until they get older. Other than that I will entertain a
motion for adjournment .
49 ,
Mee irg - Hay b, 1991
' Cc.;ncilman Mason: Can I, just one really quick comment . You know we faced I
p:-ob„by two of the most contentious issues since I've been on the
Co ! :1 . h'�ybE? I don't know.
Cc..-r_i1i:.e::, Dimler: Since you've been on.
'
Councilman r''aceen: Yes, since I've been on and I think there truly is this
at least amongst the Council that there will be disagreements. And we
mig`+ be shouting and screaming at each other but we have one common goal in
min here arm that was just , it was really refreshing for me tonight . There was
soma
Ce, ci1wc a— Oimler : Wasn't that fun?
Councilman Mason: Yeah. It 's neat that I think we're all working together for
_ oar:t' thing here. That 's all.
i! � j
Ma/or Choiel : Don has one other thing.
Den Ashtc rth. I just passed out , Don and Ursula and I had met with our
representatives this morning. This was correspondence from that meeting. What
I had ycu sign was the Hennepin County property tax issue. We had no protests
from Hennepin County so you could sign off on that one.
Councilman Wing: What about the motion in regards to the. . .we have a Recycling
Committee that gets very little advertising that does an incredible job but is
reall , I think deserves recognition. I'd like to offer the public recognition
1 and aE4 that this be forwarded to them if it has not been.
1 , Shmiel : I believe it probably has been.
' Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to adjourn the meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:45 p.m. .
Submitted by Don Ashworth
Cit, Manager
' Prepared F,; Nann Opheim
1
1
1
1
1 50
1
•
/I
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
MAY 1 , 1991
IIChairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:35 p .m . .
I MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart , Ladd Conrad, Annette Ellson , Steve Emmings ,
Joan Ahrens , and Jeff Farmakes
MEMBERS ABSENT: Brian Batzli
IISTAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss , Planning Director and Jo Ann Olsen , Senior
Planner
IIPUBLIC HEARING:
PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE A 39,885 SQUARE FOOT PARCEL INTO TWO SINGLE
II FAMILY LOTS WHICH WILL REQUIRE A LOT AREA AND LOT WIDTH. VARIANCE (LAKESHORE
WIDTH) ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 6541
MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY, KEN LUND AND DANA JOHNSON, WASHTA BAY COURT ADDITION.
1 Public Present:
Name Address
II Ken Lund 395 Hwy 7
Dana Johnson 6301 Greenbriar
II Charles Anding 6601 Minnewashta Parkway
Tom Krueger 3860 Linden Circle
Joan Simpson 6560 Minnewashta Parkway
IJo Ann Olsen presented the staff report on this item. Chairman Emmings
called the public hearing to order .
1 Dana Johnson: I 'm Dana Johnson . I live at 6301 Greenbriar in Excelsior ,
55331 .
IKen Lund: I 'm Ken Lund . I live just down the street at 395 Highway 7 .
Dana Johnson: Well first of all I want to thank you for the opportunity
II today to be able to come in here and talk about the variances here and so
forth . Ken Lund and I have lived in the area for quite a few years . Ken
has lived here for 25 years. I 've lived here for 15 years . We do both
I have lake access on the Lake Minnewashta at this present time so we have
enjoyed the lake quite a bit and know the surrounding area quite well also .
We know that we are a little short . 12 inches on both lots on the lake
frontage and the size of a walk in closet on the existing 20 ,000 square
I foot per lot . It isn 't a lot obviously but we still don 't meet it . We 're
here today basically just to kind of plead our case to see if you will okay
the variances . One of the things about it is , first of all we 're not
II developers. We 're not in here to make any big money on this . We 're just
here to try and build two existing single family homes . Build it with
pride and take pride in the lot . The lots that are around there right now .
One of the things too is that we are squeezed in between the lake and the
road and that 's one of the hardships we 've got here also in trying to make
I
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
Planning Commission Meeting
II May 1 , 1991 - Page 2
the amount of the frontage and the square footage also . Can I approach the
I bench? I do have some pictures . I don 't know if anybody 's been out there
to see the home . The surrounding homes . I went out and took some pictures
of the house that 's existing there and you know , it 's not in great shape at
I all . It 's got holes in the roof on one of the out buildings that are on
the lot . It was wilt way back in the 40 's so it 's a pretty old home .
I 've taken pictures of the surrounding homes around there . What we want to
I try to do is kind of make the area a little bit better looking by
developing two lots these . Now you can also say that it could be just , you
can build one home there . Well , if somebody came in there , they could come
in there . Keep the existing home that is there right at this point and
I live in it the way it is because you can live in that home . So that
existing structure could still be there if you deny us our permit or not .
But I did take some pictures of it .
IEmmings: Why don 't you just give them to Tim and then he can pass them
down .
I Dana Johnson: The firs' three are the existing home and then the rest are
around the area . The houses next door and behind it . Every which way .
I 'm. not a professional photographer so . Right now the house has been
I vacant for a couple years . It is in poor condition in this point and we
would demolish the house and put it up . And you know you talked about the
lot next door to it too . I take pride in the things that I do and even the
I creek , the creek is full of bottles . Full of cans that people have thrown
in there . That could be cleaned up also . I definitely would be taking
care of even though it isn 't on my property , I would improve the look of
that. also . There 's a snowmobile trail right along side that that a lot of
I people toss stuff along as they 're going along the lake . At one time too ,
there are two sewer and water hook ups on that piece of property .
IEmmings: It 's stubbed in from the street?
Dana Johnson : Right . So at one time the city engineers thought that could
I be dividable . In fact when I took , I went and when I did my survey on that
lot , they do an aerial view of the city water . I saw an aerial view of it .
I don 't know what it 's called . There were actually three on there so at
one point I 'm sure way down the line they had this divided up into three
Iactual lots . We could only state that there 's two because .
Farmakes : Who purchased the association access next to the property?
IDana Johnson: I 'm sorry .
II Farmakes: From whom did they purchase the association access next to this
property? It 's about 30 feet .
Dana Johnson: You mean in the , there 's two lake associations .
IFarmakes : There 's a fenced access just to the south of the property . It 's
about 30 feet wide and it goes down to the lake . Do you know who , from
IIwhom? It looks like the lot was purchased from the property owner where
that home is .
I
11
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 3 I
Ken Lund: I don 't think so . I think the person who had the land across
the street , because I know years ago , I remember when that was for sale . I
think that person had land across the street actually had a 30 foot access .
He actually owned his land right across the street and when he developed II that property , the people that lived across the street had their own little
access to the lake .
Dana Johnson: We 've even pursued it on one side of the , there 's accesses
on both sides of our lot . One 's about 50 feet on the creek side and then
obviously the larger access . We even went as far as to pull the deed an
the creek side to see who actually owns that to try to even purchase that . I
Due to the fact that there 's about 50 names on it and it says in the
Schmidt Tract which is B which is across TH 7 and there 's a number of homes
in there . The deed really wasn 't very clear because there wasn 't any II single name on that that we could go actually right to that person and ask
them that . It just says the Schmidt Tract and the deed is dated back in
19 , what was it 13 or something like that? 1914 . It was a real old deed .
Farmakes: This is the abandoned home to the north?
Ken Lund : ' No , no . The abandoned home to the north , there 's the little
tiny parcel between that and the house that we 're dealing with right now .
Farmakes : Oh , the wetland area there?
Ken Lund: Right there . It 's a little 50 foot tract that , it 's like a gate II
house . Lake access for people from the Schmidt Acre .
Dana Johnson: Which is across the street from TH 7 . '
Ken Lund: By Minnewashta Church .
•
Dana Johnson : By Cathcart . Up that way .
Ken Lund: In fact somebody had mentioned to us that if we could purchase
one foot of that from them , then we 'd meet the requirement . We went down
to the County . They said that it would take a long time and a lot of
paperwork and a lot of legal to try to do that because they didn 't have a
real clear deed owner on that property . It belonged to too many people and II
went back too long . Nobody really claimed it . They said actually we could
claim it or go after it but it .
Dana Johnson: It would be a year and probably too much money for us .
Ken Lund : It would take about a year to do it and a lot of money to get
that one foot to make the lots legal .
Dana Johnson : But basically you know , it is a small variance and I hope t
you take a look at it . This is Ken and I 's kind of first dream to be able
to afford to get on the lake . We see it as a great opportunity and we
really believe that we can better the area with two homes on that instead
of one because always remember , somebody can just move in there and just
11
II
Planning Commission Meeting
IIMay 1 , 1991 - Page 4
1 redo the inside and keep the outside the way it looks , as you just saw .
Thank you .
Emmings : Okay , thanks . This is a public hearing . Is there anyone else
IIhere who wants to speak on this? Please come up .
Charles Anding: My name is Charles Anding . I live next door to the
I association lot . 6601 Minnewashta Parkway . I understand what you folks
are saying . I do have some concerns however and I would like to make one
correction . You stated the home had been vacant for over 2 years .
11 Dana Johnson : Year and a half .
Charles Anding : I think it 's closer to about a year but it has been vacant
I for a period of time but the property has generally been fairly well taken
care of . There is again one out building that does sit next to the
association lot that has for a number of years that I 've looked at it , a
I hole in the roof . I think it was from a collapsing chimney . I can 't speak
about the actual house itself . A couple things that I wanted to make sure
the Planning Commission was aware of . On the south side of their lot
running along the , what, do you folks call youselves? Linden Circle
1 Association?
Tom Krueger : Minnewashta Creek 2nd Addition Association .
IICharles Anding: Okay , whatever it is . The folks up there off of Linden
Circle , Linden Drive . There 's a drainage area that runs from along the
property line there about 5 or 10 feet into their lot that of course would
IIbe of concern . That 's a natural drainage area to the lake and I would be
concerned about development affecting that drainage area . Number two point
that I would just like to point out . That this property sits on a very
I small bay . If you were out there today you probably would have seen the
amount of curve along that shoreline and I live inside of that curve along
with my neighbor on the south of me and we 've found that the traffic that
I would occur on the lake would be difficult with the docks coming out from
two properties in that small bay and that we all have to have this shared
area off the end of our docks . I 'm fearful that if we put two lots in
II there and extend docks off of that area , which is a very shallow area ,
those docks are going to extend quite a ways and it 's going to cause more
of a congestion problem on the lake than what we 'd probably like to see out .
there . I 've talked to my wife . I 've talked to a few of the other
I neighbors and generally we 're concerned about this particular split
occurring . Of course we can 't make a recommendation . Only express our
views but we are concerned about it .
IIConrad: Your last comment . It 's hard for me to track what you just said .
Charles Anding: About the bay?
IIConrad: Right . Explain that a different way for me .
I Charles Anding : I don 't know if you folks have these things but that shows
the curve of the bay better than of course what this does up here . But
II
I
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page
what we 're saying is that the way this bay , the small curve in the lake
forces us to essentially , the way the docks would have to point to get out
towards the deeper water . If you extended them another 50 feet would be
very close to each other at the end . I guess is what I 'm trying to state .
Recognizing that the association lot in here doesn 't have the ability to
put in a dock , it would still cause a congestion of boat traffic out here
at this specific point . My only point being that if we have to split that
into two lots , I assume that there would be two docks coming out there . '
Conrad : From a motor standpoint?
Charles Anding : There is one other point I 'd like to make . If you look at I
all the homes along in this area , we 're all running minimum , minimum of I
think of 120 foot lots out there so the other consideration would be that
if we go to something that 's 75 or 85 feet wide , it 's not going to be
following the context of the rest of the homes along the shoreline .
Emmings: Is there anybody else that wants to address this?
111
Tom Krueger : I 'm Tom Krueger . I live at 3860 Linden Circle which is just
up the street going to the west or on the top of the chart . I 'm the third I
house back . I did look at the property . I did put a bid in on it on the
basis of a single family dwelling . That was based on the fact of seeing
Paul Krauss who basically said that the lot was really not splitable . It
was also based on the aesthetic point of view of the lot . From the
aesthetics , no matter how you split the lot , one person 's front yard ends
up in another person 's front yard . You end up with very little privacy and
you can put a nice little house on each lot . You can put up a 2 car I
garage . With the road improvement going up , you 're left with a house that
would not be of the same size and the same aesthetics as the other houses
on the lake which is why I gave up looking at splitting the property or I
anything like that and going in on a single family dwelling . The beach to
the south , we 've applied a number of times for a dock through the
association . We 've probably done it wrong both times . But we 're learning
okay so we ' ll probably get there one of these days . It is a 60 foot piece I
of property already . Not 30 feet . So there in that case you ' ll end up
with three 60 foot separations or less between docks maybe eventually which
is a concern to us . Also a concern is with that many docks and in that
area , it is a swimming beach . We have 40 children up in that area . In the
Addition up there . For matter of reference , the Addition and the outlot
for the beachlot and the separation of the other properties to the south II were part of the Burkee estate which is the older house up on the hill with
the pillars . Kind of kitty corner off and away . So considering all and
I placed my bid in and everything , not having won of course but still it
would seem to me that common sense would prevail and a single family I
dwelling would be allowed there considering the property , the association ,
the creek drainage . I don 't think buying a foot on the other side of the
property does anything because the creek is still there and that confuses
the issue . The association supports 36 families . There are 40 children in
there and the number of docks would definitely concern us with the number
of boats in there and the traffic that that would bring . .Thank you .
Emmings : Thank you .
II
Planning Commission Meeting
IIMay 1 , 1991 -- Page 6
I Joan Simpson: Hi . I 'm Joan Simpson . I 'm at 6560 Minnewashta Parkway . I 'm
the pink house on the hill . We 've only lived there 2 years and I
understand what you say that you want to bring the old home up to standards
for the area because it is an old home . I think one nice home would brin
II the area up to standards because I think there is a lot of homes that have
area on the land and I think trying to put two homes on that piece of land
will make it very crowded . Speaking from the association that just talked ,
I as I am a member and just talking with the people that I have who a lnt
aren 't in attendance , there 's a large dissatisfaction with the idea of
splitting the land . We don 't have the say in whether it 's split or not but
I the dissatisfaction is very prominent from the members . As far as leaving
the house as it is , you know how can we say that that 's what would happen
or not? It would depend on who moved in . Hopefully it would be brought up
to standards and I would imagine at some point it would be . I have
I attended an estate sale there and I have gone in and it is very liveable .
It 's very small but it is very liveable and I think just as a
recommendation , I would say I would just hope to see one home go in .
ISpeaking for the association . Thank you .
Emmings: Thank you . Are there any other comments from the public? Do you
want to respond or say something else? Go ahead .
IIDana Johnson: I 'd like to address a couple of those issues . Speaking of
the dock situation . Number one , we 've already talked about just putting
I one dock out there in the first place . You know I 've lived on the lake
long enough , for 15 years and that 's what all of my neighbors have done .
lust put one dock out and that 's exactly what I would do too . You know
I when you talk about , if you put one dock out is it going to crowd , is it
going to hinder boat traffic or whatever? Well , there isn 't any docks to
the right of it because it 's all open land up there . If you look at the
plot , there 's no homes for probably 700-800 feet of lakeshore . And the
I association doesn 't have a dock either at this point either . So basically
I just wanted to address those two issues on that . Again , you say one home
or two homes . You say it 's going to be crowded . Well , we can put on one
I lot , we can put a 60 foot home across on Lot 2 there to the left and on Lot
1 , we 've already been to our builders and we can put a 50 to 52 foot home
on the other one so there 's plenty of space to put a house that 's up to the
I sizes of other homes in that area . We 're both talking about doing
walkouts . Two story homes so that will go right along with the other homes
on the lake also . I just wanted to address those issues that they brought
up . Thank you .
IEmmings: Okay . Any other public comment on this application? If not , is
there a motion to close the public hearing?
IConrad moved, Ahrens seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. .
IErhart : For my piece of mind here , Jo Ann or Paul , the surrounding lots on
the lake are what size in general? -
IOlsen: Well they all meet or exceed the 20 ,000 square feet .
II
11
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 19?1 - Page 7
Erhart : 30 ,000? '
Olsen: Well the ones near it are closer to 20 ,000 to 30 ,000 . They 're not
real big but they meet the .
Erhart : And the general frontage on the lake would be , on the surrounding
lots would be what?
Olsen: Area right there?
Erhart : Well yeah . Down the lakeshore there .
Olsen: Well they really vary . But the ones that have homes on them , some
of them have like 100 . Around that . More than 75 . A lot of the lots are I
just those narrow little strips that will never be buildable sites .
Erhart : You say that there 's a lot of lots there that are unbuildable?
Olsen: There 's some , if you 're saying what 's really going on around Lake
Minnewashta . Like where Stratford Ridge was . Do you remember how a lot
of , it 's juEt a narrow strip on Minnewashta Parkway . '
Erhart : Oh you mean narrow this way? Okay . Not narrow perpendicular to
the lake?
Olsen: Right . There 's no depth so those have a lot of width but they 're
not buildable .
Erhart : Okay . I 'll tell you a couple of things concern me about this . One I
is the fact that it 's next to a recreational beachlot I think has an impact
in that I think we really want to try to keep houses as far away from the
beachlot as possible to avoid conflict . Here we have a situation where
actually we 're really encouraging someone to build a house closer to the
beachlot . The beachlot to the south . The second thing is , the effective
width of Lot 1 really is about , it looks to be about 60 feet . If you look I
at the piece that comes down . The flag so to speak . Real perpendicular
width is only about 60 feet there even though when you get down the lot
because of the angle it may be 75 feet . Plus part of that is being
absorbed by the setback from the creek . I just don 't think this is a two
lot parcel . I guess I would be opposed to the split .
Conrad: The creek . Does that creek , what 's the value of the creek? 1
Olsen : It 's an outlet to the lake and it 's important enough that the DNR
has marked it as a protected creek . So that setback is to maintain open
space around that .
Emmings: Lake Minnewashta outflows to Lake Virginia by that creek .
Conrad : Outflows?
Emmings : Yeah . '
I
Planning Commission Meeting
IIMe\ 1 , 19•,1 - Page S
Erhart : Excuse me but what 's on the north side of the creek then?
IIOlsen : The north side of the creek is that little strip that provides
access for Schmidt Acre across the street . It 's not a trout stream or
IIanything like that but it 's protected .
Conrad : So the 50 feet is from where on the creek?
IIOlsen : See where it 's right on the top .
Conrad: Are you able to build , would you build 50 feet away from the
Icreek?
Dana Johnson: Sure . I 've already done , I 'm just going without the
I variances at this point and that 's the way I 'm assuming that I 'm not going
get the variance on the 50 foot and made my plans accordingly to build 50
feet from the creek . I can build a home 50 feet from the creek no problem .
I No problem at all . If it would have been a problem , I wouldn 't be here
tonight . Believe me .
Conrad: I have to go back to the context that these lots are in . Jo Ann ,
I are these smaller than what we would see in the neighborhood? And Tim
asked you the same question .
I Olsen : Yeah . All the other lots do meet the requirements . They all meet.
the 20 ,000 square feet . They all have the 75 foot at the ordinary high
water mark . That 's where we measure at least within the 500 feet . Not
Iacross the street . No . But along the lake , yes .
Conrad: And to the south we have the beachlot and then we have a lot of
lots that really don 't have houses on it .
IOlsen: Well no . Just to the south you do have homes and those do all
exceed the 20 ,000 . It 's as you go down .
IEmmings: Ladd? Maybe I can fill you in . As you go south from this
property there 's the beachlot . And then I 'm not sure how many homes there
II are . There 's 5 or 6 homes and you get down to a couple more beachlots and
then it gets narrower and narrower until you get down to Cedar Cove .
Remember when we did Leach 's thing and then you 've got Red Cedar Point
there . And to the north of this property there are large undeveloped
I tracts for probably , there could be 800 feet of shoreline or more . I don 't
really know how much but it 's a big piece . There 's 3 or 4 , 3 tracts in
there that I think are totally undeveloped . And then you get around to
I where I live and in there it 's , on the north shore they 're , I have 100
feet . My neighbor has 150 and there 's a lot of 100 foot size . Lots in
that area .
IConrad: Okay , thanks .
Olsen : I have a location map if you want to look .
IIConrad : Yeah . I looked at that Jo Ann .
I
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 9
Olsen: It kind of gets confusing . But they all , this would definitely be I
setting a precedent .
Erhart : If I could interrupt . What is , on a 15 ,000 square foot lot with
the normal setbacks , how many square feet do you normally have there that 's
buildable?
Olsen : With the regular setbacks? '
Erhart : Yeah .
Olsen: Quite a bit of it because you only have typically 30 foot . ,
Erhart : Let me ask you this . Is the area that you 've got on there that 's
buidable , you 've got the lines drawn . That area , is that bigger than ,
significantly bigger than a normal buildable area in a 15 ,000 square foot
lot?
Olsen : On Lot 1?
Erhart : Nfo , when you combine the two .
•
Olsen : The whole two?
Erhart : Yeah . That would be what? Significantly bigger than the ,
buildable area on a , well .
Olsen: Well that 50 foot setback cuts in . ,
Erhart : Well yeah . That 's what I 'm saying .
Olsen: And the 75 foot setback too so I don 't know that you would have
significantly larger than typical .
Erhart : Because of the setbacks , there just isn 't that much buildable area II
left and then to take that and divide it in two . Is what you 're really
dividing in half .
Conrad: I guess in context , and Steve I 'm going to ask you a question . In I
context will this be out of place?
Emmings: On that stretch? Well , Lake Minnewashta has old development on
it like Red Cedar Point where there are a bunch of narrow lots . And I
don 't know how wide the lots are there . I expect they 're somewhat narrower
but I don 't really know that . '
Ken Lund: . . .40 foot lots over on Red Cedar Point .
Emmings: Yeah but a lot of them have . '
Ken Lund: 40 to 60 . Most of them are 60 .
II
Planning Commission Meeting
IIMay 1 , 1 c.,°1 - Page 10
II Emmings: It appear: to me some of those have been combined over the years
so they 're double wide so I 'm not clear on exactly how wide they are and
it 's also a Eituation where it 's narrow beachlots . You know we have , they
say their 's is 60 . Is that right?
IITom Krueclei : That 's correct .
II Emmings: You know and we know that the Minnewashta Heights is 25 or , it 's
very small . So there 's kind of a mixture . But these are smaller than the
typical lot on the north , that exists on the north and west side I would
say , yeah .
Olsen: On the north and west side?
IIEmmings : Yeah .
Olsen: Yeah .
IIConrad: Okay . I guess I 've been trying to rationalize the split because
when things are so close , I want to give the applicant every opportunity to
make it happen . If it 's 20 ,000 square feet , you miss it by a few feet , I 'm
II not tow concerned . I 'm looking for the intent of the square footage
requirement . I 'm looking for context of how things fit . And I still can
be persuaded by the rest of the Planning Commission who actually I
' apologize for not visiting this site . I should have . I think that would
have made me feel a lot more comfortable with what I 'm going to say but I 'm
looking for the rationalization and it 's looking like we 're trying to
II squeeze too much out of the property right now with the setbacks . And
based on what I 'm hearing on the context of where it 's found and my concern
with the creek . I guess we don 't have the control over the creek and
variances and I don 't want to see a variance on the setback to the creek . I
I simply don 't . I think creeks are extremely valuable and if it 's a
protected creek , I don 't want to see that . We dont ' have control but my
biggest concern right now is that plus the fact that it 's looking like
Iwe 're trying to squeeze a little bit too much out of the property and
therefore unless somebody can persuade me another way , I would vote right
now not to grant the variances .
IEmmings : Annette?
Ellson : I agree with these two gentlemen . I don 't have anything new . I
I think it 's just too much in a small space and there 's not really a good
enough reason to give a variance .
' Emmings : Jeff?
Farmakes : I went out to the property today and had a look at it . 'It 's a
nice lot but I do think it 's a single home lot . I guess I 'd disagree that
II the house that 's on there is to be described as an abandoned piece of
property . The house is relatively in good shape from what I could see .
The shed does has a hole in it but it 's an out building shed . It would
I seem to me that if you took the park away which is now a very narrow road ,
and saw that in the future as being widened so it actually has a shoulder
II
11
Planning Commission Meeting
Ma;/ 1 , 1921 - Page 11
on it , those cars would be coming awfully close to your front door . And
these setbacks as it stands now .may work but I think it 'd be a real problem
in the future if they do widened that road . I can 't see anywhere on the
work that the staff did here . It says a variance can be granted by the
Board of Adjustments and Appeals and City Council only if all of the
following criteria are met and there are several criteria that you 're not
meeting . It 's not just a walk in closet issue . There are several issues .
A lot of them have to do I think with the worth of the property and I think I
if you put two pieces of , two homes in there and make two lots out of that ,
that it certainly would be beneficial because I think some of the
surrounding homes that are there would not fit into that category . They 're
larger homes with more space around them and I could see where it could be
an advantage to the person who 's splitting that lot but again , I think it
would ha a disadvantage to the surrounding homes . I think it should be one
lot .
Ahrens: Jo Ann , is there any , there was a drainage issue raised here .
Olsen : On the south side? 1
Ahrens: Right . Is that? '
Olsen: The engineering department didn 't point that out . We did go out to
the site . If there 's actually a drainage area on this lot , we would want
to protect it with an easement . I can 't say . Do you recall it being on
this lot or is it on the recreational beachlot?
Resident : No , it 's on this lot . Right along the south border of that lot .
Olsen : We didn 't notice it . We can go out and check it again . That 's
something we didn 't notice .
Ahrens: Is that something that was just maybe missed on the report? I 'd
like to know that because I 'd like to recommend approval of this . I think
the variances are very small . I think these people are going to go out and
build houses that are not going to fit in . I mean they 're going to spend
alot of money to build houses on these lots . They 're not going to build
something that 's going to be an eyesore for the rest of the community . I
think that the idea of the shared dock meets the concerns of , or just one
dock was going to be shared , meets the concerns of the neighbors that
there 's going to be too much traffic on that one area . Variances are just
so small here . On the other hand I hate to set a precedent for the next
person coming in saying well our lot 's only 200 feet smaller than the lot
that you just approved . But this is so close and I think that if they
think that they can build a nice house on these lots , I don 't see how we II can say that no , they can 't build a nice house on these lots . I mean what.
kind of standards are we using anyway? I would though like to see , I don 't
know if we can do this . Can we set as a condition of approval that that 50 II
foot setback from the creek be maintained? That no variance be approved?
We can 't do anything like that?
Emmings: It. 's a different body . ,
I
IPlanning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 12
II Conrad : That 's the ,
P roblem we have no control .
I Emmings: Well we do . It 's the Board of Adjustments and I guess we could
tell them that that 's the way we feel about it but what they do , they do..
1 Krauss : I think you could put in a condition . It wouldn 't firmly bind a
future action . However , it would clearly state that the intent in creating
this lot was not to create additional variances .
1 Olsen : Right , but they can still apply .
Ahrens: They could still apply but if we had clearly as one of our
I conditions that they had to maintain that setback , how likely is it that
they will say well we think it 's good , we 'll allow a variance?
I Krauss : It shoots a hole in the argument that could be made that you
created a lot that 's unbuildable without further variances .
Olsen: It will definitely be a self-created hardship and they ' ll have a
IIhard case .
Ahrens : Well that 's the way I would go with it and I 'd recommend approval
Ion this .
Emmings: Okay . As for me , I think I have to say , before I say anything
I else that I know Ken and I know Dana and his family . My children play with
his Dana 's children and I don 't think that matters to me . I 've thought
about it quite a bit and I don 't think I have any problem acting on this
issue . We 're not close friends or anything like that , and we especially
1 won 't be after this . No . I basically adopt Joan 's comments . I think that
the issues that we have to look at , the variances we have to grant to allow
this subdivision I think are so small that I don 't have any problem
Isupporting the proposal . It does seem like the lots are a little narrower
on the lake side than the lots immediately around it , although there 's a
lot of undeveloped land and we don 't know what 's coming in on those and 75
I feet is what 's required so we can 't really hold up a standards of 100 or
125 feet because 75 feet is what the ordinance says . I think they 're going
to have difficulty building a house on Lot 1 but if he says he can do it
and it satisfies them , then I don 't have a problem permitting it . I don 't
1 see why I should tell him he can 't build a house there so I do support the
subdivision . The creek is an important issue and I would support the
notion that no further variances should be granted . So with that , are
I there any other comments? Does somebody want to make a motion? Okay , time
out
Erhart : I ' ll move that the Planning Commission recommend denial of
IIPreliminary Plat #91 -3 as shown on the plans dated April 1 , 1991 for the
reason stated . The subdivision creates two non-conforming lots .
1 Ellson : I ' ll second it .
Emmings: Any discussion?
I
1
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 13
II
Erhart moved , Elison seconded that the Planning Commission recommend denial
of Preliminary Plat #91-3 as shown on the plans dated April 1 , 1991 for the I
following reason:
1 . The subdivision creates two non-conforming lots .
II
All voted in favor except Emmings and Ahrens who opposed and the motion
carried with a vote of 4 to 2.
Emmings : Denial is recommended by the Planning Commission . This will go I
to the City Council?
Olsen: May 20th . I
Emmings: On May 20th and you should follow it there . Alright . We don 't
Ihave too much else on the agenda .
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Chairman Emmings noted the Minutes of the Planning
Commission meeting of April 17 , 1991 as presented .
I
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE:
Krauss: There were relatively few Council actions on the last agenda . The I
Council did vote to approve the chemical toilet ordinance on a split vote .
They did add a modification however that the Satellite units that be used
be designed to incorporate , I don 't know what the technical word is but
II
it 's the sump in the vent line so that if it tips over that there 's a
reservoir to catch the material . Satellite told us that they designed that
into their new ones anyway . We changed the ordinance accordingly . We II brought a proposal to the City Council to fund a Comprehensive sewer and
water plan . This is a follow up to the relatively cursory look we provided
in the comp plan thus far to how we 're going to serve the new MUSA area .
IWe 've been talking very seriously to several parties , one of which you 're
real familiar with , Lundgren who wants to proceed with actual design .
There 's another office/industrial developer who 's looking at three possibly
developments . Two certainly but possibly a third . And people are asking
I
us questions like where do you want the sewer to run? Where do you want
the watermain to come in from and we don 't have a real good handle on that
right now and we want the City to be out in front of that issues instead of II
playing catch up and trying to figure out if the developer 's proposal which
is obviously good for the developer is good for the city in the long run .
We went out and got RFP 's and brought them back to the City Council . The II City Council authorized us to retain the firm of Bonestroo , Anderlick and
Rosene to undertake these studies . What we said is we 're going to hold off
on signing contracts until we get Metro Council approval . Trying to
prudent with spending the money before we go . Bonestroo is working with us II
right now on our comprehensive plan application with the Metro Council . In
the absence of a city engineer , they 've been helping us respond to
questions the Metro Council 's been raising regarding sewer . In fact , they I
reworked our entire sewer section and recalculated sewage flows which are
the critical number and using what they think is methodology that MWCC will
accept . They work for MWCC on a lot of projects . They 've actually come up
with a much lower flow rate than had been anticipated originally in the '
II
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 14
II
plan . So it looks better to Council at any rate . So we 'll be going ahead
I with them as soon as we hopefully get approval on the plan . June 8th has
been established as , it 's a Saturday , as the date to have a bus tour and
sort of a design shirette for the corridor . The TH 5 corridor . What we 're
looking to do is to get a bus , drive up and down the corridor . Get out and
II walk around sites . Use some design professionals . Dick Wing has been in
contact with an ilidividual from the Urban Design Studio at the U and we 've
also got , we work with the firm of Barton-Aschmann on TH 5 improvements
I now . Well arrange to have individuals from both aboard . What we
envisioned doing is driving up and down . Walking around sites . Getting a
feel for what the comprehensive plan says . Getting a feel for what you
I intuitively think a property should be developed as and I think you get a
real different perspective on it . It 's different driving back and forth
from the highway every day to actually going out and hiking around a site
and trying to vision forward what you think you might see . And then I 'd
Ianticipate that we 'd come back to City Hall for an hour or so and have
these individuals do some sketches and that this would serve as kind of a
kick off for further work on the corridor which will probably lead to
I ordinances changes , etc . , etc . . But this is really the initiation of the
corridor study that the Council asked for concurrent with the comprehensive
plan approval . I don 't know E' hat else I can say about that at this point .
What we 're going to do is invite the Planning Commission , the City Council
I and the HRA to tag along on this so you 're all welcome and we 'll be sending
out some official information with the details as soon as we have them .
I Emmings: In your report you apologized for not having , and I 'm glad you
said something about it . Some of the things we 've been working on .
Landscaping ordinance I suppose you had in mind and the bluff ordinance and
II looking at Bluff Creek . Looking at that valley in terms of it 's
preservation and also who was it? I think Tim mentioned making a greenway
or corridor out of the whole Bluff Creek flowage there . That seemed like
an awfully good idea but when can we expect to have those back on our
Iagenda Paul?
Krauss: Well , actually there 's another announcement on that too . The same
I two individuals who gave the presentation here went before the Park Board
and the Park Board is equally excited on preserving the bluff . Councilman
Wing is on Monday night I believe going to request that they give a similar
I presentation to the City Council so that can be carried forward . You may
recall that we asked them if we could work with them to set up a date to
hike through a portion of this to give people a hands on feel . They very
much feel that it 's useful to do this in May instead of in June . The City
I Council won 't get to hear this officially until sometime in June with their
schedule with the property assessments and all that . They think that May
is the ideal month because it 's not too buggy and it 's not too overgrown .
I We 're looking at May 11th which doesn 't give you a whole lot of time but
again it 's a. Saturday . We 're looking at , they 're going to do an
abbreviated hike . It 's going to take about an hour . I 've got to make some
phone calls to the golf course to get permission to park there and to walk
I in through their property but if you could , those of you who are familiar ,
flag your calendars for an hour 's walk on a Saturday morning and hopefully
again we ' ll get this , this will be a part of the process in getting this
Igoing .
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 15
Conrad : What day?
Elison : Satuday , May 11th . '
Olsen : The ordinance itself is back on the next Planning Commission
agenda . It 's a public hearing .
Emmings : Okay , so we ' ll see the bluff ordinance on the next Planning
Commission meeting . How about the landscaping ordinance?
Krauss : Honestly I 'm working on the PUD ordinance first . That I was doing
tonight and we 're shooting to get that on the next agenda too .
Emmings : Okay , so we have PUD .
Krauss : And the bluff . '
Emmings : Is there any chance that you can get the landscaping one in too?
Krauss : I don 't want to promise that . I ' ll try . '
Emmings : -Okay . I think we ought to get those out .
Krauss : We haven 't published it so it wouldn 't be a formal one but I will
try .
Emmings : Maybe if we could see another draft . Anything that will get it
done . We should get those out of the way because we 're soon going to want
to start that 1995 study area and it 'd be good to have those out of the way I
since we 've already addressed them , it seems to me anyway . Okay .
Krauss: While we 're in the business of marking calendars too , I want to
update you on where we 're at on the comprehensive plan .
Emmings: Yeah , there 's a lot of stuff in here . How 's it going with Eden
Prairie? '
Krauss : Up and down . I think we 've reached some sort of a medium position
with Eden Prairie . Without going into too many details , Steve saw a letter
that we got from Eden Prairie which raised a lot of issues that I felt were
a little bit unusual about our plan . We had an opportunity to speak to
Eden Prairie . Met with their City Manager , the Community Development
Director and some Engineering staff . Don Ashworth and myself . They have
sent a letter to the Metro Council which is in your packet raising some
concerns but it 's a much more abbreviated letter than their initial one was
going to be . One concern that they raise that I think is a legitimate one I
and we 've been trying to do some follow-up on is the fact that based upon
the Eastern Carver County Study , we are talking about traffic being on
roads that Eden Prairie had never anticipated . And that doesn 't only
affect Eden Prairie . It affects Hennepin County . It affects probably
Minnetonka . It affects Shorewood . It affects Excelsior . And I 've been
trying to work with the County Engineer who headed up the Eastern Carver
County Study to go to the next step . The next step is to start a series of I
1
IIPlanning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 16
II
meetings with all these agencies and with MnDot so we can come to
I understandings about these things and get things in work programs . Roger
Gustafson set up a meeting at the Metro Council last Friday with their
Transportation staff . I was in attendance and it was a productive meeting
and again I think it 's going to get the process rolling . I don 't Eden
II Prairie is raising any issues at this point that I find cause fundamental
problems with the plan . At all . In fact , I 've had a follow-up letter to
the Metro Council . One of the concerns they raised was , you may have read
il there was an HRA brochure that ;,Jas put out that seemed to indicate a
greater amount of vacant land than we had indicated to the Metro Council
and I 've sent a follow-up letter to the Metro Council basically outlining
11 the fact that HRA 's tend to be boosters of a community and they tend to
look at things in a certain light . For example there was property like the
Ward Estate which was shown as available for industrial use . That 's true
right now but as soon as the comprehensive plan is approved , it 's not going
I to be industrial anyway . It 's going to be residential and commercial . And
there were some other discussions of individual properties and I did give
Metro Council a letter of that that explained it . My initial meeting with
I the 'Metro Council was now about 3 weeks ago . I don 't know if I told you
about that at the last meeting . There were 14 Metro Council staff people
in the room and there was 3 of us . There was Mark Koegler , myself and an
I individual who we 're working with from Bonestroo , Bob Schunicht . The
comments we received on the plan are very favorable . I mean environmentally
they 're telling us we 're on the cutting edge . In fact they 're telling us
we 're in front of the Watershed District and all this kind of stuff . It
I got down to we spelled the name of a street wrong . . .but Mike Munson
continues to be difficult in the manner that he has been to communities for
the last 15 years . Mike Munson refuses to amend his population or
II employment forecasts . He admits that they 're wrong but he won 't accept
that we 're right and he won 't re-run his model for another year or two . He
actually kicked off the meeting by suggesting that we only come in for a
one year MUSA or two year MUSA amendment until he can re-run his model
I which I let him know in no uncertain terms that that was outrageous and
unacceptable and that everything we 're doing is consistent with the Metro
Council policies . Dealing_ with the Metro Council is kind of unique because
I they don 't have consensus amongst themselves on how to deal with situations
such as ours . Met again with their staff the following week and Mike
Munson was more conciliatory . He is willing to go with the TH 212
I forecasts which were above their original forecast but below what we had
thought . You recall we used the three tier forecasting . 212 was the lower
range . Well 212 never , did not include any projections at all for
employment and they don 't have any understanding or any grasp of how to
I project forward on employment . What they 're doing though is using the 212
forecast for household growth . We 're lucking out on this one it appears at
this point . We were so conservative . I think you may recall like when
I Lundgren wanted us to add 90 acres I said I didn 't see a problem because
we 're coming in way under what we think we can justify anyway . We ,were so
conservative in what we were bringing into the MUSA that we can justify
I what we 're bringing into the MUSA for residential land based upon those 212
forecasts . On the matter of employment growth , Munson did something I 've
never seen him do before . He basically threw up his hands and said , if
Chanhassen thinks they 're going to have 12 ,000 jobs by the year 2005 , I
Ihave no reason not to believe them . If anybody could do it , they could .
I
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 17
And I think they 're going to leave us alone on the industrial . I remain
uncomfortable with this thing and I will be until the day we. get it
approved and I haven 't seen anything in writing from their staff but it
looks now as though they 're trying to develop reasons to approve the plan
instead of the reverse which was oftentimes the Metro Council 's position on
things .
Erhart : Who approves? Is it a person? Is it a vote?
Krauss: Well , they follow a process that 's a little analogous to ours .
They have all these different , except it 's a bigger bureaucracy and they
have all these different divisions . They have sewer . They have
transportation . They have airports . They have parks . They have housing .
They have Mike Munson in demographics . And then they have a land use
section and all these departments go off in their own little world and I
write their own reports and they oftentimes disagree with each other and
then they 're supposed to pull all this together in one recommendation . The
recommendation is supposed to go to , I think it 's their development
committee which is sort of , I guess if you will the Planning Commission for
the Metro Council . It 's supposed to go to them on May 16th . Thursday
afternoon .
Emmings: Do you get to be there and defend it? '
Krauss : Well I 'm certainly going to be there . I 'm not sure of their
process yet . I 'm assuming I get an opportunity to do that . If there 's
anything we need to defend against at that point . It 's supposed to go to
the Metro Council itself on May 23rd for final action . I 'd like you to
mark those days down on the calendars . If it seems as though we need
support , if there 's a problem , we 'd like to call on a few people from the
Council , from the Planning Commission , major property owners and developers
to be down there basically saying everything we 've been telling you is true
and here 's why . I 'm not sure that that 's going to be necessary at this
point but I 'd like to have that in our back pocket . We 've also been
spending a lot of time . One of the problems is we 're dealing with an
entirely new Metro Council . That 's been in the press a lot lately for how '
they interact with communities and pressure that the Governor 's placing on
them and the Metro Council itself is comprised of all new individuals with
a new Chair . The Mayor and the City Manager and myself had a meeting with I
Bonnie Featherstone , who 's our new Metro Council representative . We took
her on a tour of the community and found her to be pretty supportive of
what we were doing and she seems to be a pretty straight shooter . And as
I understand it on some issues , the first issues that she 's been given to
' work on , she 's been very defensive of her communities which is good . The
Mayor also has set up a luncheon meeting with Mary Anderson , the new Metro
Council Chair . Fortunately Don was her neighbor in Golden Valley and knows
her fairly well . Mary Anderson , she was somewhat non-commital as you would ,
expect . She 's not going to say her staff is right or wrong or anything
else at this point but she also was receptive to the point of view that we
fostered and I guess the premise that we 're taking forward is . Here 's ' a
community that 's done everything right . We 've given you everything that
you 've asked for in a plan . We 've taken self-initiative to resolve
environmental issues , to resolve transportation issues . We 're not asking
Planning Commission Meeting
May 1 , 1991 - Page 18
11
the Metro Council for a darn thing . We 're not saying spend one dollar more
' here than you thought you were going to spend in the first place and we 've
grown tremendously and been a job generator and have good residential
neighborhoods . We 're the perfect example of everything the Metro Council
' should be advocating . If they take a position where they 're actually
trying to hinder it , we 'd like that to be as public as possible . But again
at this point I 'm quite hopeful that we 're going to move ahead with few , if
any changes . We ' ll know more in the next few weeks .
Emmings: Okay . I 'd just like to bring people 's attention to , I spotted a
case that came out of the Supreme Court and I brought a copy for Paul but
it basically said that a City Council can refuse to issue a conditional use
permit on the grounds that the use would be in conflict with the
comprehensive land use plan . Not with the ordinance writing but just even
with the comprehensive plan . And maybe that 's nothing earth shaking but I
' think it 's a good thing to know because we 've talked about being able to
resort to the intent of the comprehensive plan to support decisions . I
brought that for you . Alright . Does anybody have anything else?
' Otherwise we 're through with the agenda .
Conrad moved, Emmings seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
' and the motion carried . The meeting was adjourned at 8=40 p .m. .
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Mann Opheim
1
I
i
11
UNEDITE;
I CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
APRIL 23, 1991
' Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:34 p .m . .
' MEMBERS PRESENT: Dawne Erhart , Jim Andrews , Wendy Pemrick , Curt Robinson ,
Larry Schroers , D( ye Koubsky and Jan Lash
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman , Park and Recreation Coordinator and Jerry
Ruegemer , Recreation Supervisor
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Erhart moved , Koubsky seconded to approve the Minutes
of the Park and Recreation Commission meetings dated March 26 , 1991 and
April 9 , 1991 as presented . All voted in favor and the motion carried .
VISITOR PRESENTATION AND SLIDE SHOW, PRESERVING THE BLUFF CREEK WATERSHED,
PERRY DEAN AND ERIK ROTH.
Hoffman: I 'll make some brief comments . Perry Dean is on your left , Erik
Roth on your right , app. . ached the City just as a personal interest more or
less , concerning discussions about what the City , the Planning Department ,
the .Park and Rec , the City as a whole , what type of ideas or considerations
11 have been given to the Bluff Creek watershed area for preservation . Paul
Krauss , the Planning Director and myself sat down . We talked about the
possibilities . It 's a good idea to take a look at and in fact it 's a good
idea to take a look at preserving the entire Bluff Creek area eventually
' all the way from 212 on up through into the TH 5 to preserve a greenway
corridor north/south between TH 5 and TH 212 . Obviously as you know , the
Park and Recreation Commission does not have a budget mechanism per se to
' pursue this type of thing outright but again , vision and taking a look into
the future for this type of large project is something we always need to be
taking a look at and as such , we just took a look at what we could do to
move forward . Mr . Roth and Mr . Dean expressed that they had some slides
which they could take us through and then also arrange for an actual on
foot hike of the area sometime in mid-May . I 'm sure they 'll enlighten you..
They 're very experienced with that particular creek area and they 're here
this evening just to make us more familiar with it and perhaps to hear your
ideas on the eventual future of that particular creek area .
' Perry Dean: Thank you for inviting us out tonight . We really appreciate
it . We are here tonight to talk about Bluff Creek . Kind of a quiet little
natural corner of Chanhassen that really not a lot of people are aware of .
I We 're particularly concerned with the lower valley part but again , we 're
also concerned about the area above Pioneer Trail up towards TH 5 . But in
particular we 're concentrating on this lower valley part where it
entrenches down to the level of the Minnesota River Valley . From Pioneer
II Trail , I don 't know if you can see the map up there . I guess this isn 't
good light for that but from Pioneer Trail on down to TH 101 and TH 212
where it comes out of the town there , crosses under the railroad track ,
II it 's about a mile and a half distance as the crow flies . The valley itself
is between a quarter and a half mile wide . However , there are many small
tributary valleys that come off Bluff Creek and the actual area down there
seems much larger when you 're down there than just being a mile and a half
long . It really seems quite large. You very much seem like you're away
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
I
1
/I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 2
from the world when you 're down there . The isolation of Bluff Creek is
what has preserved it . It is off any big roads and pretty much the only
people that know about it are the immediate residents , the people that live
near-by . To most people it 's just a line of trees out there across the
field and people just really don 't have any idea that there 's this big
valley here . The relief is about 40 feet where Pioneer Trail crosses and
as it goes down and entrenches down to the level of Minnesota , the bluffs
reach like 200 feet high down towards the bottom . Because it 's been
isolated and fairly well preserved , really the only use it ever had was to
be pastured . Used as pastureland and that was large discontinued about
1970 . It 's really quite an intact example of maple basswood forest . The
classic eastern maple basswood forest . The French called the "Boire Forte "
or the Big Woods from the large size of the trees . And at one time , this
Big Woods covered a fairly extensive area of south central Minnesota but
' due to European settlement and agriculture , it 's virtually disappeared
except for in a few pockets . I mean at least in the classic intact sense .
Nurstrand Woods down by Northfield is one such grove that 's been preserved
and Bluff Creek really is a very good example too . The rich forest
terraces down along the bottom of the creek have a rich variety of wild
flowers , spring of femerels . The trees of mainly maple , basswood , red oak ,
white oak , ironwood . Along the creek there are cottonwood trees and then
' on the northeastern slopes there are birch . Now also insuring the fact
that Bluff Creek has been isolated and is inaccessible because of the steep
sides of the valley . The cliffs along the edge . Cliffs in the glacial
material . These are a natural feature of the area . In places though they
have been aggravated by agricultural on the top where imprudent drainage .
In fact , in some places very dynamic erosion has occurred along the cliff
II line . I know the Planning Commission is currently working with coming up
with zoning for bluff line or some sorts of guidelines and I think it 's
very important to keep it in mind that there needs to be a significant
margin along these cliffs . Most of the time Bluff Creek has water running
in it . During drought years it will dry up entirely but much of the time
it runs full . Most of the drainage basin of course is in the uplands of
mid-Chanhassen . This went up to the marshes but down in the lower courses
here there are lots of beds of springs which flow into the creek . Very
lime stone ridge . In fact these may be limestone fens which are relatively
rare ecosystem which occurs along the Minnesota River Valley . Particularly
I by Black Dog prairie and several other places and they have a whole suite
of plants which are very specialized and relatively rare . This particular
creek , or bed of springs here is at the very bottom of the valley on the
west side and in fact , this is part of what the City of Chanhassen already
I owns . I believe there 's 21 acres down there along the west side of the
creek which came to the city of Chanhassen as a result of the development
to the Hesse Farm development . But you can see with these springs , the
quality of the water down there is really quite good even though it drains
a lot of agricultural land . There 's probably a lot of phosphates but it
does purify as it goes down the course of ,the valley . Now this is the same
area of the springs . They 're right next to that cedar tree there and this
Iis what has happened as a result of some of the imprudent drainage up near
the golf course . On the road out to the golf course . There 's a ravine
that comes in and due to whatever , for whatever reasons , an enormous
II erosional area has opened up partway down that gully and many , many cubic
yards of mud and sand have come down and glutted the valley and washed
1
I/
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 3 1
delta material all the way across the floor of the valley . They filled in II
the old stream bed , the former stream bed which is right here and has
actually diverted the course of the stream off through the bed of springs
there . So these are the sorts of things we need to be concerned about
here . This is Bluff Creek in the winter . It 's really very beautiful . It 's II
a wonderful place to ski . Maybe not for everybody . It 's kind of bush
whacking kind of stick crashing but I love it . I love to go out there .
It 's really quite beautiful . The Bluff Creek valley is really an open book I
of the geology of Chanhassen . In particular the glacial geology . Most of
the material that we see here and in Chanhassen was deposited 12 ,000 years
ago by the Des Moines lobe of the Wisconsin glacier which came down out of II
the northwest through the Manitoba lowlands and dredged up an enormous
amount of limestone . Through Western Minnesota it brought in gray
crutaceous shale and in Central Minnesota it scooped up pigmeous rocks .
Granites and shifts . And sometime along it 's course of either advancing or
retreating the margin on the glacier spent a fair amount of time here in
Chanhassen and just dumped a large amount of material in what is called a
terminal marine which causes the very hilly terrain , the lakes and swamps
and very desireable residential for all sorts of areas . After that glacier
retreated northward , it dammed up an enormous lake in northwestern
Minnesota and into Canada called Glacial Lake Odysseys . This was about II 10 ,000 years ago and the outlet of that lake was the Minnesota River Valley
which carved this huge , entrenched this huge valley through Southern
Minnesota and Bluff Creek being a tributary of that to cut down through
these deposits so there are a few places here where there are big open
cliffs with the glacial material . Here you see it 's roughly sorted clays
and silts and if you live in Chanhassen I 'm sure you 're familiar . The iron
stain . This is a little lythology lesson of the Bluff Creek glacial drift II
here . The stippeled rocks on the left there are limestone cobbles which
have been stained with iron sitting in the drift and the solution has come
around and created these mosslike patterns . Here you see some of the gray
crutaceous shale . In the upper lefthand is limenite which is iron oxide .
Of course there 's iron all over and then there 's a piece of granite too .
You can see the overall light buff color of the glacial drift as a result
of this heavy limestone content . In places there 's so much limestone that
it actually forms a natural cement . This is an unusual thing in glacial
drift for it to become actual rock . It 's become indurated . Forms large
boulders in the creek bed . Here 's a close up . It really does look just
like cement and that 's what it is . Natural cement . Like I said , this is
an unusual feature . This is not something you see in a glacial drift
elsewhere . This very same material of course is what they mined in Chaska
for years for the Chaska brick which you still see in the old buildings and
beautiful farmhouses in Chanhassen . The same material . This limestone
rich soil has made a beautiful hardwood forest here . Like I say , it 's the
Big Woods . The maple basswood forest . At one time , well actually
currently we are going through a major change out there with a majorr
component of the forest was elm trees and with the Dutch Elm Disease coming
through , it has transformed large areas of the creek area here . For
example this terrace here was largely elms and if you were to go here , and
we could go here on the field trip , you would see it 's just many big dead
logs now and the winters in this situation have been the maples . The maple ,
trees strategy is to have many , many little seedlings scattered all over
the forest which will wait from 10 to 15 to 20 years for that light to come
I
/I
II Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 1991 - Page 4
1 for that tree to fall and then they 'll all shoot up and that 's exactly
what 's happening right now . So -it 's selecting for maple . The maples are
of course Chanhassen , the trademark . The Dakota work for maple tree ,
II Chanhassen . Here are two sugar maples with very different forms without
their leaves . An in fall , the same two trees do this every year . One of
them 's gold and one of them 's red . This is right on the margin of Bluff
Creek . In fact it 's right in the yard of the Redmond 's house . The new
II house that 's built out there . Other trees of course are the oaks . This
being white oak and red oaks , hickory , ash . Under the maple trees forms a
very rich carpet . The maples in particular draw a lot of nutrients out of
II the soil and deposit them in their leaves so when the leaves fall back down
onto the ground , it forms a very rich soil and that 's why it seems so lush
in a maple forest . So full of wild flowers . April , May and June are just
I incredible out there . It 's one of the most spectacular displays of wild
flowers of any place in the Twin Cities area that I 'm aware of . It really
is spectacular . Here we have rue anomenoe , yellow woodland violet , purple
violet , rattlesnake fern . The first flowers to come out are the paticas
I and they are currently out in fact out there . In profusion . They come up
before there 's any other plants have come out . They 're called spring of
femerel_ . They come out before the leaves on the trees to take advantage
I of the tunlight for photosynthesis . They form really quite a spectacular
show which is going on right now out there . And then come the bloodroots .
And Dutchman 's britches . Virginia waterleaf . The red bainberry . Just
dozens an-i dozens of wild flower plants out here . There 's also many ferns .
I This is a maidenhair fern . Lady fern . Cut leaf . . .and there are some very
rare plants out here too . This is a patch of the yellow lady slipper which
of course is protected in Minnesota . There 's also gingseng out here in
I Bluff Creek which at one time was fairly common in the forest of eastern
North America but because of it 's alleged medicinal properties ,
particularly to the people in the Orient , it has been hunted to the edge of
I extinction . It gets a lot of money per pound for the root and people have
gone out , farmers have gone out for a little extra cash have hunted the
gingseng almost to the verge of extinction . But there are a few patches of
gingseng in Bluff Creek . Definitely worth saving . Down in the bottom of
I the valley , towards the lower end , there are actually some grassy areas in
the bottom which are in fact little remnants of the tall grass prairie with
the classic prairie grasses , the indian grass , side oats gramma , little
I blue stem . Some of the flowers that also grow only in the prairies . This
is the hairy pacoon . There 's also a gentian and lead plant and what this
represents in Bluff Creek is a microcosm of what 's call the tension zone
in Minnesota between the prairies and the eastern hardwood forest which
I
kind of interdigitate depending on the topography and the location . Bluff
Creek has both . Has samples of both which definitely adds to it 's value .
And I also mentioned cedar trees are a significant component in the cliffs .
I This is one of the larger cliffs down towards the bottom which has been
quite active over the years . The golf course , the Bluff Creek club house
is just over the hill here . But Bluff Creek contains a wide variety of
I wildlife habitats . There are many deer in here . There 's also beaver .
Beaver building dams . Active beavers . Fox , racoons , other mammals . Also
lots of birds . Protected area for birds . Forms a very significant
II ecosystem and because of it 's size , it has a lot, of range and allows for
some of these larger mammals to thrive in here . This is my closing picture
here . I just wanted to give you kind of an overview of the natural aspects
II
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 2? , 1q91 - Page 5 I
of Bluff Creek . I would of course love to see it preserved the way it is
as Chanhar=en develops . Of course the pressures on places like this are
going to become greater . I would like to see it preserved as a public •
place . A place where maybe on a limited access sort of thing to preserve
it 's natural character but I really feel that this is the sort of thing
that , this is a very valuable asset and I think that the public really
deserves to have this . So with that I will turn it over to Erik who will
talk about some of the past efforts that we have , he in particular has done
in preserving Bluff Creek and also some more experiential type of
perspectives .
Erik Roth: I too want to thank you very much for indulging us in our
interest here in hopes that you will share our interest . I don 't know if
any of you , I think someone mentioned hunting through that area so I would
hope that indeed all of you are familiar to some extent with this place . If II
not , I 'd be delighted to show it to you . We would because between us we 've
covered a fair amount , maybe half the glove in travels and these days ,
Earth Day going by , we think about having to think globally and act
locally . Well , even though we 've seen some pretty marvelous places around
the world , we believe that this particular valley is indeed extraordinary .
It 's features largely are intact naturally as an inadvertent consequence of
development occurring in the last century when a railroad was• built from
the Twin Cities going south through southwest through the Minnesota River
Valley , following the bluff line . You can see it here going off to the
lower right . This railroad as it passed Bluff Creek , in order to maintain II
the grade a large earthen dike was erected in it to allow the creek to flow
through . Well as I say , the inadvertent affect of -this huge dike was to
block off the valley from sight so that , except for the fact that there 's II
this culvert and a creek tumbling out , one wouldn 't know what 's there
behind it unless you go up to it and see . Or try to go through the culvert
and look . That 's exactly what Perry and I did in 1962 as school boys drawn
to this sort of thing . This is what we saw standing on top of that
railroad above the culvert . You can see the creek below and the lower
valley we called it . These rolling meadows here delighted our eyes and
drew us into this space to explore it . It hadn 't been too many years after II
this area had been grazed and at that time you could still see a lot of
evidence of cattle grazing . Even today you can still see some barbed wire
fencing here and there throughout it to keep the cattle in . As a result of
the moving out of the cattle , certain plants have sprung up and horsetail
rush is probably the most noteable but in the many years since 1962 we 've
seen a lot of change in plant forms . The natural , in that many years
you 're going to see a natural succession of growth . Just as Perry
mentioned , the elm trees fading as a consequence of the blight . Even if
there weren 't a blight , there is a natural succession of plants and we 've
seen a good deal of that . Of course we were drawn up this creek from that
railroad just to see what 's there . The lower valley as you can see here is '
wide open and has a feel of the prairie irr parts . Further up you get into
the woods . Now here , on a bluff quite a ways up , it 's maybe hard to see
for you from a distance but in the pretty much dead center of the picture
is that culvert that the creek winds through . There 's a shadow of the
embankment that the railroad has built across the picture . And then beyond
is the Minnesota River Valley . Without that shadow line going across the I
upper center of the picture , the valley itself would be wide open to the
1
II
Park arA re: Commission Meeting
11 April CC , 1991 - Page 6
I Minnesota. Fiver Valley and probably would have had some encroachment from
below L7. into this lower valley space . But as a result of that railroad ,
the valle> has been cut off from development and it has stayed fairly wild .
Up into the further areas of this valley , it begins to take on aspects of
II the microcosm . Just as the creek itself in it 's large sense is a microcosm
of the Minnesota River Valley , it too has little tributary valleys leading
into it which are microcosms of the Bluff Creek valley . And all of these
II are full of remarkable sites . A beautiful display of plants . Here the
creek is dry . This was taken in probably the mid 70 's during the period of
drought and the creek was largely dry there although it was intermittent .
11 As Perry mentioned , there were springs in the lower valley . There are also
springs at a couple of spots further up the creek and they would create
water that would be standing and then elsewhere along it 's course it would
be dry as you see here . But it made for a really marvelous place to
I explore . All along it 's course there are trails . Natural trails , Deer
paths . Actually there are basically three of them that I can identify as
significant roadways if you will . One along the creek itself , one partway
11 up the bluff and near the bluff peak all interconnected as nature paths as
natural paths are . And as we were growing up , we would make little
shelters . If any of you have been in there , maybe you 've come across
II these . We were the ones who built them . Here 's another one . These are
gone now . Largely just built from picked up stuff off the valley floor and
now they 're gone the way of dead fall . As was our intention actually .
This is tributary creek . In and of itself it looks quite large . There 's
II kind of a wonderful play of scale that occurs throughout this place . Once
within it , within this Bluff Creek valley , indeed you are cut off from the
entire outside world . You can 't see anything that occurs above the bluff
I line . Occasionally you might hear , depending on where you are , if you 're
close to the bluff line you might hear a golf cart . You might hear a lawn
mower or you might more likely hear a plane from Flying Cloud Airport but
other than that , you are totally cut off and you might as well be in the
II Boundary Waters for all you know . It is truly a place apart . This
actually is a characteristic which Frederick Law Olmstead singled out as
the most important . . .that there shouldn 't be any intrusion within the park
I from anything , any of the outlying commerces and activity that necessarily
goes on . Once within the park you need to be able to get away from that .
Whether it be a city park or it be a larger outlying area park . This
II particular valley allows that in the degree that is truly extraordinary .
As I say , we 've seen many changes . This picture was taken in the late 60 's
I believe . We were on the rim of one of the larger cliffs there . We 've
identified two major cliffs and there are some minor cliffs but there are
II two significant cliffs and this is one of them . This particular maple that
was on the edge then and you can see here on the edge eroded . It had it 's
soil eroded out from underneath it and it slid down and is now in this
I picture in the center left there is a skeltal remains . That 's happened
repeatedly and is probably part of the natural cycle . As long as the
erosion isn 't exasberated by imprudent drainage , whether it be from housing
IIdevelopments or golf course runoff or whatever . The erosion into these
bluffs from a meandering creek is a natural occurrence and in a relatively
short amount of time . Indeed within a decade or two , these hollows , these
scooped out areas from erosion tend to fill up with plants . Cedars and
I sumacs and other vegetation so they do tend to stablize as long as the
edge , the upper edge , the bluff rim has sufficient depth to it to
1
Par P: : Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Pace 7
acrom ''�E- te --:,mE. catastrophe as in the center of this picture and that
scocFI,A out hollow you can see a shadowy outlines of that maple tree . That N�
now is a dim memory because there 's hardly any evidence of it anymore . But
during all of these years as we would explore this place ; we began to
realize that we b e some responsibility for it and we tried to see. if
there were ways to preserve it . In the late 70 `s I tried to bring it to
the Fttention of the Nature Conservancy and took to this valley on a hike a
worker from the Nature Conservancy , Jeff Barnard who has now gone onto , as 0�
they say bigger and better things . He 's now trying to preserve the rain
forest in Costa Rica . That 's very important . However , I believe this is
no less important . Certainly as far as we here are concerned . This is
what we have to work with and it would be a terrible shame to lose it .
This particular picture is taken from the peak , the top of one of those
bluffs looking across one slice , across the valley so that all that you see
in this picture is contained within the valley . The tree line on the N�
horizon is , as sharp as you see it , on the other side of those individual
tr* ps which you can make out there , well there once was farmland . Now
that 's the Hesse Farm . Developed housing . And so that edge is indeed , as 0�
narrow as the screen . It 's just a thin veil of trees . You can name them
almoct . The> `re individually significant and to lose one is like losing
one -of your front teeth . Not only are those trees significant for
protecting the sense of space within the valley but indeed they are 0�
literally by their roots , holding on to the soil that 's holding that bluff
edge in place . Here you can see through that a little bit better and you
can see the open space through those trees so you can sense how delicate N�
the edges are . Yet descending into that volume of space below immediately
cuts > eu off from whatever is going on on the upper world above and that
trul / is delightful . To be able to get away . That 's a human perspective .
As far as the plants and the wildlife is concerned , that becomes refuge and I
indeed they have taken to this in quite some exuberance . Here 's one of the
houses . There 's a number of them that have been built right up to the edge
of the bluff . Some of them are aesthetically fairly nice . Without getting 0�
into those aspects of pursism or anything , I think it 's important that the
people of Chanhassen recognize what the valley has to offer to see if there
��
isn 't some way to accommodate this open space with our view of private 0�
property . Indeed the Nature Conservancy felt that the best way of
preserving this , acquiring this might be through what 's called a
conservation easement . I don 't mean to propose a strategy at this point
but only to suggest that this place is so deserving of our consideration
that we try to come up with a way , given the will to pre-serve it . A
conservation easement would allow the particular property owners to keep
ownership . To be able to sell it . To pass it on to their heirs . To do N�
those sorts of things with it . However , the terms of an easement , even
though it 's site specific would have the strings attached to it that the
various owners who together would join an easement would determine . And as
I say , it 's site specific . A lot of different possibilities can exist . So
unlike other types of preservation , conservation easement might allow
hunting for example . It might allow a variety of uses . But as I say , I
don 't mean to suggest that that 's the only way to go here . Back in the mid II
70 "s , not only did I take some Nature Conservancy people out here but I
also approached two members of the Raher family . The Raher Malting Company
has a firm , some elevators and big concern in Shakopee just across the
Minnesota River Valley . Across the Minnesota River from here and because
/I
Park an Pee Commission Meeting
April 2? , ' 0^1 - Page C
' of that pre> imity I thought they might be interested . Indeed they were and
as a cen_e-;u.: nce of taking Guido Raher out to this valley , his Fritz Paher
invited Perry and I to give a similar talk to the Watershed District
commissioners which we did in 1984 . At that time they were acquiring , if
you will , Bluff Creek as a part of their jurisdiction along with Riley and
Purgatory Creek . And so they 've been keeping their eye on this place I
suppose . In the last so many years the farmland that we see here that
' characterise much of the plateau above the Minnesota River Valley now has
been subdivided and is becoming certainly a mixed use . Becoming more
largely residential so this is a fading scene . It 's not something we would
expect to see 10-15 years , 20 years from now . Nonetheless so far , the
creek continues to flow through the valley undisturbed and remains a
beautiful world apart . I 'm particularly concerned that the encroachment of
development will reach a critical mass surrounding this valley that will
' bring some major changes on the order of the railroad back in the last
century . Certainly the building of Highway 212 which will cut across Bluff
Creek on the northern part of the valley that we are focusing on today .
'
That will be as significant as the railroad was in the last century . And
so , truly it 's now or never as far as this place is concerned and it 's up
to us . If_ it doesn 't happen , we are to blame . If it does get preserved ,
we can share in the credit I suppose . This is taken from above this
' valley . The valley itself in the center of the left of the picture there
is a silo . You can maybe barely make it out . The Bluff Creek descends
below that and off into the distance . The farmland in the foreground is
now no longer farmland . It 's houses. And Hwy 212 will cut across this
picture when it is built . Nonetheless , there is beneath this rainbow a pot
of geld if we would only maintain it . That 's Bluff Creek so I do hope that
' you can talc a look at it yourselves because I think that 's the thing that
will convince you more than any of these pictures or our talk . So I hope
that somehow we can find a way to preserve it for it 's own sake and also
for the sake of our great grandchildren . I do believe there ought to be a
way to d this without usurping any of the property of any of the owners
but indeed any of the people who had chosen to live beside this valley must
resc?nize how gorgeous it is or they wouldn 't probably have moved there .
' And indeed to put some kind of a park there , park space that is more in
lin& with a nature preserve than maybe asphalt paths and that like .
However , it certainly could only enhance the property value in it 's
immediately vicinity and it 's got to be I think a jewel in the crown of the
comprehensive plan for open and park space for the town of Chanhassen . So
that 's what I have as far as pictures are concerned . I 'd be happy to
answer any questions if you have any . Like I say , we 'd like to take you
there . That 's the thing that most of all will I think persuade people of
how extraordinary a place it is .
Schroers : How about if we reorganize and continue with this .
Erik Roth: Thank you .
Schroers : It was very well presented and , at least from my part , was very
eye opening . I think that my general feeling is that you 're going to drum
up a lot of support from this commission . Hopefully there will be a way
II that we can help . I 'd like to give each commissioner an opportunity to
express themselves on this issue . Before that I would like to say that
1
11
Park and Pec Commission Meeting
April ? , 1')91 - Paae 9
past ccr siss,ic,na and staff personnel have recognized this as a significant
are -r_' h s identified it as an area that we would like to see set aside
as c r: ace and potential passive use park area and we have looked at
som ways of procuring it or preserving it to that end . What we have done
in the Fast is , the only thing that we could see that was feasible from a
monetary point of view that looked like a workable situation was to try to
this property annexed or incorporated into the Minnesota Valley
get P- Y lley
National Wildlife Refuge because it borders up to it . And we had
discussions on that and we were starting to look into the possibility or to
see whether there was such a possibility and then at that time we had staff
changes and we had commissioner changes and I really don 't know where I
that 's at . At this point . I don 't know if the National , if the Minnesota
Valley National Wildlife Refuge has actually been contacted and approached
with that and I don 't know what your feeling is on that . If that would in
fact imRc_sc on the current landowners . If that 's an interest that you
perhaps wouldn 't want to entertain . I don 't know but I think that it 's
taping about . I just want to say that I thought your presentation
worth
was superb . It was really good and I 'd like to give the rest of the
commiszi _,rers, an opportunity to express themselves . Anyone want to start?
Lash : I guess this goes along with the old saying , a picture is worth a ,
thousand w: rds . It was gorgeous . I just can 't thank you enough for
allowing us to see that and there are many of us who have never seer that
area . I know I have never seen it . This is my idea of preserving open
space in the City of Chanhassen and I would certainly be supportive of any
efforts that we could make in that direction . This is what people moved to
Chanhassen for I think . I don 't know what all we can do but I certainly
would lire to see staff investigating what kind of possibilities for
prey ervi ny this area .
Kouksky: I auess I 'd like to thank you also Perry and Erik . Very well
done . I haven 't been up in the creek area but I certainly will .
Especially with the flowers and what not this spring , that 's real nice to
see . like Jan seem to think that if there 's any place in Chanhassen 11
to preserve as a wildlife sanctuary or something similar to what you 're
discussin- , this would probably be it . I 'd also support any efforts or be
willing to help out with time to see what we can accomplish .
Robinson: I too was impressed with the beauty of your presentation . I 'm
curious and I haven 't been out in the Bluff Creek area except when the
Commissioners went out there one time to find that parkland that I don 't
believe we ever did exactly locate it . But how many acres are we talking
about in the whole?
Perry Dean: If that little section of parkland down there is 21 acres , if II
that 's any indication , I would say we 're probably talking about , probably
the section of the actual valley area about a square mile . . .
Erik Roth : It 's extraordinarily deceptive . As experienced as we are with II
that place . Like I say , we 've been there since 1962 and some years going
out there once a week . Other years maybe once a month . I was there Sunday
and in all those times , I tend to go through there like a dog which is all
over . That way you end up finding things that you don 't always find . In
I
II
Psr ! Tn' c:': : Comxisoion Meeting
IIAprI ] �1 . 1 ,('2 Page 10
spitc of elmrst 20 years of experience , I still find places there that I 've.II nove- bee to or see things that I have not seen before and have been
dc] i��ted b> it . And thrown off by this very unusual phenomenom of scale
where it seems much bigger than it actually is on the map . Now I 'm not
Iexsctly cure uhat that "s due to other than the fact that the oreek does
meander . Tha trioutaries do meander . There is some tremendous elevation
chance . You go through a lot of plant forms . Going from room to room ,
from t=rrace to terrace or what not so there 's a different feel from place
I tc place throughout it . All of those things tend to enlarge the feeling of
the place . And so it 's really difficult for us to give you a figure for
acreage . Whatever it is , I think ultimately when we figure that out , it
I will seem much ` lt will appear much smaller than tho experienoe indicates .
Robinson: Thank you both very much for taking your time to come down
I tont
Pamrici : Yeah , thank you . It was really a very beautiful presentation .
I 'm curioue as to , how is it owned now? Is it the property that abuts
II i�� T�� home-.?
~
Per-r-- Peen: There 's a number of owners . A significant owner , if you 'll
�� taie a l �: � at the map behind you . Most of that over here , in fact this
��
whol : Frc.F here is the golf course which is owned by the golf course and
then this whole area up here is called Bluff Creek Development Company .
All t '--t '--is.i p�rt of the valley which I understand is also owners of the golf
I ooursc ` or at least some of the owners of the golf course or something like
that . So basically this whole block up here which is much of the valley .
I 'd say like more than half , a bulk of the valley is owned by the golf
I cc.'rce and co]f couroe assooiatlon . Down here it geto muoh more invnlved '
Particularly on the east side there . There 's a number of owners on the
east side . In fact there 's one parcel for sale right where TH 101 goes
Iunder the railroad traoks ther* ' Dn the north aide ' On the uphill side tn
the ric,ht there . There is a small parcel there for sale .
IIPemric[ : That has a home on it?
Hoffman: No it does not .
IPemrick : Is that Teich 's property?
Perry Dean : Yeah , it 'd be across . And then the Hesse Farm development
II down hers , thls is where they in faot , where they gave up , I don "t know
exactly how it worked . The 20 acres is right in here of Bluff Creek . Bluff
Creek Park .
N1 Erik Roth: I might say that in the early 80 °s when I was talking with the
Nature Conservancy about possible ways to aoquire ' ' .plaoe such as this , and
just did not get their limited budget and agenda at that time . However ,
I thay cert� inly enooureged us , they thought it wao worth preserving ' They
were a bit dismayed at the large number of owners and I think what dismayed
them was that made it difficult for a private entity to just simply go in
IIto acquire . Without governmental support , that made it very difficult for
a private entity to do that . However , with governmental support , in other
II
Par . and Re: - Commission Meeting
rpr _ 1 :-:2' , _ - Page 11 1
word: if t ': kecomes significant on the agenda of the City of Chanhassen ,
that ' : in . -oIe other ballgame . And given that kind of support , there '
still a variety of ways to approach it . It 's not something where you need
to take awe ,' land from someone who owns it already . It 's possible I
Ibelieve that all these owners living there now can benefit by teaming
together with that property that is included within this valley and is also
the rim of the bluff . The summit , along the plateau above the creek which
is essential to it 's integrity . Both ecologically and experiencially . So
to me , as I look at the problem , what 's essential is determining . . .will to
preserve it and then a terrific creative effort to figure out how to do it .
Once the will is there , I think a way can be found in a way that would I
enhance the value of property for all the people that live there now . . .
benefit from it just as the golf course does . It seems like to me a way to
preserve it 's natural attributes only enhances everyone 's interest . Back
in the early CO 's , without official support . I did go to a man named Bruce
Hankenen worked for the City of Chanhassen and I approached the City at
thct tiro . They told ne of course it was considered as a corridor at that
time and n :,- , be th=at 's what the status is now but basically was on the back
bur-,- - . . ..-t that time .
. Pemrick : 'I: that the Chicago Railway that runs through there. II
Hoff„= 1 Ye: .
Pemrick : So that would he a natural trail that would go through part of
II
it .
Heff;.-•n: We 're talking about that this evening . I
Perris' : Part of the trail . There wouldn 't be any possibility then of a
bic plot of ] and aoing to development in one crack so that 's what I was
IIwond:r1 about . I would definitely be interested in walking it . I 've
walked some of it but from the slides I don 't think I 've seen enough of it
so I ' d be interested in getting together with you guys when you do form
th-t�� croup .
II
Erik Roth: It 's a real vigorous experience because of the elevation
changes plus in some places it 's like going through a thicket . There are
II
brambles and briars and all of that have discouraged some of our friends
but we knew the way I guess .
Pemrick: I would agree with Jan though that if it would be acquired , it I
should definitely be left in it 's natural state .
Erik Roth: I think so . It could accommodate , there are trails there now . II
There are natural paths that are animal paths . Very few people go there .
So few indeed that we 've been able to track them . So it 's kind of stayed
in this belljar for a long time but it can 't last without some
intervention . I think it would be nice certainly , I think it 's important
II
to keep it , even if no one ever went there . Still it 's possible to have . . .
in the sense that it would accommodate a nice trail through there with
IIwhatever kind of trail would allow it to be enjoyed by any number of people
II
.
II
Parfr ar+ f-T Commission Meeting
II , c - fl �72 ` 1 '7-7I ' PaT'e 22
.
throu��7,L + ^ he , ear . It 's best 3 seasona] ly . Summer it gets to he a
II littl = inters : uith lnsects .
Pemrir1- : I 'm curious . Has there been any feedback from owners?
IIErik Roth : We 've only seen limited numbers . I really , without kind of
official support , I never felt like I could knock on somebody 's door and
say he/ ' I 've got just the thing you ought to do with your property . It I just didn "t oeom right and we were well �ware of the fact that in a oen�e
we were trespassing all of these years . However , all of those years we
il didn 't run into , very few people . Some . Got to know some of the kids who
N� were in there hunting and whatever . They had seen those lodges that we
��
�= made cc, we built a bit of a repoire there but I really have not gone door
to do : r anJ taken a survey in terms of what the people . I think most
peeplr `.ho are there probably appreciate it and don 't want to see it
I chan2:,: 7! . They like the status quo which is what we 're after . I believe it
cha,:ld cta,, that wax without actually going through all of these
prce*durT . It 's not going to happen . I 've seen too many other places . . .
I I hr � eat ] ,' ��r. "t know what the property owners ' ' .
Andrek7 : I 'd like to thank you both too . I thought this was a beautiful
precertatirr . I wanted to make a couple of brief comments . I guess I 'd
I liLe t -' r-,c :, if there exists a law in the city that would be similar to
0-at they have like on Lake Minnetonka for development along lakeshore .
That � :'Jl � He similar to development along the bluff ridges . Some sort of
II `� c�� La,eL rule or a setback law . If that 's something to look at that
rru� lr' in th,--- near term in a way of preserving the erosion problem .
IHcf'- an ' [urrcntly there axioto a aetback frnm the oenter line nf the
rrecJ 77 feet . Ideally that does not preserve the bluff .
II { Thare WE,7 a taps change at this point in the discussion . )
RAIL DISCUSSION , CHICAGO & NORTHWE5TE��N F� .R ' , HENNEPIN COUNTY RAIL AUTHORITY
I RIGHT-OF-WAY ' .
Public Present:
IName Address ' '
t-
Carol Dunsmore 730 p�prt� 96th Street
Gilbertsen 1190 Bluff Creek Drive , Chaska
Karen Hasse 630 West 96th Street
Betty Wold 730 Pioneer Trail , Chaska
I Sue Severson 675 Lakota Lane , Chaska
^
Gayle Voael 105 Pioneer Trail
Ma^t Thill 9610 Meadow Lark Lane
II
Schroprs: . ' .motorized vehicles . When you get down into that valley and
start hill climbing with dirt bikes and running all over with snowmobiles ,
I that `s the thing that bothers me . If there was a good way to keep people
II
Pee Commission Meeting
,!..7- 2 :2 ` 2?21 - Page 23
U�
and police it so they would stay where they 're supposed, to
b: ` th-,t v`Ad be a different thing . But when you run past an open area
likc unlese you have some kind of constant police patrol , people are
definitely going to go into an area like that .
Lash : That 's a good point and I would not like to see that happen . When
you mentioned the Luce Line you said there were certain areas that were
designated End maybe that 's a solution that we could look at here and just
ha`/e m: tcrized be west of the bluff area or something . I don 't know .
I 'm not saying that I feel strongly one way or the other . I 'm just saying
I wo:2dn ^t feel comfortable tonight ruling out motorized vehicles as far as
I 'm conc,:,rncd . But I do think that this is an opportunity , especially in 0�
this part cf town . We really don 't have much of a trail system down there .
We 're scant on east/west connectors . Any kind of trail system as it is now
so I t ' in| it 's a perfect opportunity for us to jump in there .
Koutc [i : I think it 's a nice opportunity we ought to consider also . I was
wond-rir-J Todd , it is n,t owned by the railroad . It looks like it 's been
purchased h/ the Rail Authority . I know this is an impossible question but
do th= ' idea if they would ever really intend to use this? If we
dev� lor:ed
KoffrTEn ' That 's their eventual intent is to use that as a light rail -~
tr=reit corridor . Now the crystal ball is when exactly will light rail
developed . 20-15-20-40 years from now .
Koubsh : Those are probably their projectsions at least .
Lash : Somewhere between 20 and SO years . 10 and 50 years .
Rol:in:or ' At the rate they 're going .
Schroers : Somewhere between now and eternity .
.
Robinson : Right .
Lash: In our lifetime . Well I guess I think we need to keep that in
consideration as far as the cost factor goes . I think we need to keep this
down as much as possible in the event that say it is only 10 years away .
Koubsky : I guess another discussional point . How do you police , I 'm
fairly new on the Board so forgive me . How do you police motorized or N�
non-motorized? If you were to dedicate it one or the other . This is a ~�
fairly unpopulated area of the city . We put Class V or whatever surface we
wanted it , it 's a perfect opportunity for any type of traffic , truck
traffic or whatever , to utilize it . There 'll be a lot of maintenance N�
involved . I can see motorized vehicles doing a lot more damage than good ,
especially if it wasn 't asphalted . How do you police that type of thing
other than posting a sign?
Schrocrs: You post the sign and you target that area to the local
authorities and to the CSO and whatever other resources you have available I and you write a whole bunoh nf tickets '
IIPark and Re_ Commission Meeting
Arril 23 , 1991 - Page 14
IIKoubsky : Is that effective?
I Schroers : In some cases it is . I mean it deters turning it into a
motorized recreation area versus a non-motorized area . I have experience
with several areas like this and when it 's a new area and it 's designated.
I and you 've got brand new signs out there and the authorities are out there
writing tickets , the word spreads . People are just going to get 2 or 3
tickets and it starts to impact them to the point where they say it 's not
worth it . You can 't go there without getting busted . We 've got to find
II someplace else . Then you are going to have your occasional person going
out there that might get away with it but initially if you target the area
and police it as heavily as you can , that seems to be pretty effective :
IKoubsky : I guess those are my comments .
II Robinson : I think this is a real opportunity for us . It sounds like it
would not take a lot of money to make it at least a walking trail or a
horse trail or something . Some small amount of rock . I think we should
exert our efforts at this time to do what it takes to get this right-of-
way and then determine where we go from there but it sounds like a real
opportunity that I don 't think we can pass up .
II Pemrick : My husband and I were out driving and we saw these ties being
ripped up and we thought are they being replaced or what and the next thing
I get a call from Eldon Burkwin , my neighbor and I was at the Homeowner 's
Association meeting last night but I had to leave early so I didn 't get a
I
chance to get feedback from most of the people , although those I sat by did
agree to a trail is definitely wanted . And I 've heard figures of like
$12 ,000 .00 or $13 ,000 .00 . Now am I imagining this?'
IIHoffman : That would be in the low range for the material . The aggregate
surface which would be similar to the aggregate trail which is installed up
II in the northwest corner which is crushed limestone , 3/8 inch or finer .
Right around that $15 ,000 .00 for that material itself and then obviously
installation costs .
IPemrick : So what do they think the cost would be with installation?
Hoffman : Depending on if installation was contracted or performed by the
II City . If it was performed by the City , then it 's obviously just the hours .
You you from the Public Works and Park Maintenance personnel .
IPemrick: How long is this section that goes through Chanhassen?
Hoffman: I 'm guessing approximately 4 miles . If anybody in the audience
knows .
IPublic: They bought . . .which is across from 212 where it starts in Eden
Prairie . I don 't think it 's 4 miles but I don 't know . I don 't know what
IIthe mile marker is .
Hoffman: To that point it certainly would not be but the entire segment
11 across .
1 •
Park and R6,_ Commission Meeting
I/
April 23 , 1991 - Page 15
Pemrick : Well I 'm all in favor of it . I think most people would be . It 's 1/
a natural thing to do and I think we should pursue it wholeheartedly .
Andrews: I agree . We should signal our intent that we would like to have II
this designated as a trail . Funding is our crisis and probably will be
more so each year here over the next couple years so I guess I 'm concerned
about cost and I 'm wondering if it would be feasible just to grade off the
heavy rock or to run some sort of roller or crusher over it and make it
more useable and perhaps just leave it as it is until we have the money to
resurface it . The other concern I have is if it does become , or if we do
I
resurface it and it 's not property owned by the City of Chanhassen , how is
maintenance going to be handled and who 's responsible for it in the
future? So that 's a concern but that 's a concern that 's a little premature II
at this point . And obviously I agree with some of the other commissioners
that we should not heavily invest in this project because if it is possible
and it 's going to be improved in a 10 year period or somewhere in that II timeframe , if we were to asphalt this or try to highly improve it , I don 't
think would be a wise investment . That 's it .
Pemrick :. I would like to break in here and say I guess I would not be in ,
favor of motorized vehicles simply because we have to respect the homes
that do border along there or are close to it . You can handle a train
going through once a day or something because you know and you expect it . I
grew up with a train going through my back yard so it wasn 't that big a
deal but when you 've got sporatic traffic during the day or evening hours ,
it can be a real nuisance .
II
Erhart : I 'd also be in favor of it . I can 't help but feel that it would
be a lot cheaper than putting a trail system in and trying to buy easements
from individual land owners . However , I would like to find out what the
II
intent is as far as the time frame for the light rail transit . Also , I
would caution motorized vehicles on it . I think all the other uses . It 's
a really unique opportunity and I think we should go for it .
II
Schroers: Okay . I 'm wondering if we could ask staff to check with the
rail authority and see what their intent is and also to check with the II cities of Eden Prairie and Chaska to see how they feel about the right-of-
way as a trail and if they intend to develop it and what timeframe they 're
looking at for doing that . It would be nice to be able to work together
and if it appears that there 's going to be adequate time and the cost is
reasonable and if we can develop that trail system and get 10 years or 15
years worth of use out of it , it would be real nice to pursue . But I do
think we should find out intentions of the rail authority and Eden Prairie il
and Chaska .
Hoffman: At this point the rail authority 's total involvement is a real 11 mystery . I have spoken to both representatives from Eden Prairie and
Chaska and admittedly they 're very interested as well but we 're all waiting
to meet with folks from Hennepin County Rail Authority to get some more
specifics . We can garner that information and then put it into a more II concise report . Bring that back to the commission in a fairly short time
so if this were to be considered as part of the 1992 Capital Improvement
II
II
Park an-i Pro Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 16
11
Program , analysis beginning in mid-summer , then the information would be
there for your use at that time .
Schroers : Okay . Well we spoke earlier -Todd about the trail that is going
through the northwest corner of the park and I mentioned the type of
aggregate that 's east of TH 101 on that trail . Did you have an opportunity
to check with Minnetonka or whoever that is over there to see what that
was?
Hoffman : They 're using a crushed limestone . It 's somewhat smaller than
the last stuff that the street superintendent over in Victoria ordered .
Was not exactly what he ordered . It was somewhat larger . Then they used
just regular crushed limestone in the city of Shorewood and it changes
back , but not limestone but Class V limestone in Shorewood and then to
' switches back to the crushed limestone again up in the area which you 're
speaking of .
Schroers : The crushed limestone makes just a wonderful trail for horses ,
' for bicycle: and everything . You don 't even need a mountain bike . You can
ride a regular street bake on it . If there wouldn't be a major cost factor
in say 2/8 minus versus crushed limestone , I would strongly promote the
crushed limestone as a surface . It 's a much more useable and enjoyable
surface to be on . It 's kind of too bad that sections of that trail that
exist now have the different material on it because it turns from a nice
bic;•oling trail that 's just about like pavement into more of a mountain
bike or walking trail in other sections . Consistency would make it nice so
you can start from one end and go to the other depending on your mode of
transportation . But anyway , since this was just a discussion item and it
' requires no formal action at this time so are there any issues that the
resident: have of concern that we haven 't addressed?
I Resident : When you 're talking about the multiple use , you 're going to have
children walking on . . .And then the other thing , motorized vehicles getting
on there like Lake Ann or . . . It 's real easy for people to get through but
hard . . .so that would limit some of that . And then I think the policing
II of . . .
Schroer: : What you need to do about that , if there are people hunting
1 illegally would be to notify the Conservation Officer .
Resident : . . .I don 't know about you but I don 't want to go out . . .
II Schroers : No , you just call the authorities . Okay . Well , thank you very
much for coming tonight and -showing your interest and I hope that we can
work together in getting that trail developed . At this point it 's pretty
I early to be overly optimistic but I think that we 'll definitely be pursuing
it . So thanks very much and we 're going to have to move on , or actually
move back .
IISITE PLAN REVIEW, 6541 MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY.
Hoffman: This is a fairly simple subdivision , site plan review . It 's
IIbrought to the attention of the Commission as an informational item to keep
11
Park and Rc : Commission Meeting ~`
April 23 ` 1991 - Page 17
you up tc, ±-.t* on activity occuring within the City , especially since this
parcel is adjacent to Minnewashta Parkway which is currently on the
discussion blocks at the neighborhood meeting and eventually public hearing
level at the City Council for the roadway improvement and/or constructioh .
of a trallway along Minnewashta Parkway . What this entails is a large ,
39 ,000 , just about 40 ,000 square foot parcel which is being divided into
two parcels slightly under 20 ,000 square feet . There 's a current home on
the lot which will be dismantled . Destroyed and then it 's the intent of
the current applicants to go ahead and build two single family homes on the
particular site . The site does contain shoreland or lakeshore to Lake II
Minnewashta . It 's a convenient location on Minnewashta Parkway . However ,
it 's not realistic to go ahead and take a look at acquisition of any of
this land . Thus it is the recommendation of staff that the Park and
Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council accept park and trail
fees in lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction on this site .
Schroers : Anyone have a particular comment on this? I mean it seems m�
pretty clear to me that it really wouldn 't make to require that of this
particular parcel .
Andrews : I just have one question . I know this doesn 't pertain to our
jurisdiction so to speak but what is the intended width of the frontage of
the lake? Do you know that? ^ ��
Hoffman : It would require a variance .
Andrews : Is that being addressed already?
Hoffman : No .
Andrew: : We don 't have anything to do with that?
Hoffman : No . We 're just addressing the park and trail fee issue . It
would require a variance for lot size and lakeshore frontage .
Robinson : I make a motion we recommend that the City Council accept the
park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and trail construction . 11
Lash : Second .
Robinson moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City Council accept the park and trail fees in lieu of
parkland dedication and trail construction. All voted in favor and the N�
motion carried unanimously .
PARK INVENTORY RESULTS . N�
Hoffman: This item derived out of basically a need in planning park
facilities and acquisition of equipment . Park equipment and that sort of
thing throughout the City . It was difficult for me to always remember
exactly , as it probably is for the Commission as well , exactly what
equipment we have in what parks and what facilities are where . Those types II
IPai an Re•= Commission Meeting
April 2"3 , 19°1 - Page 18
II
of t ncc- . To accomplish that goal I established park inventory days .
In,i I f_ _ ' our park maintenance staff , which is an important component of our
1 department End Jerry and myself to partake in those inventory tours .
Visits if you will . Do some brainstorming . Take a look at the future
development of our city parks . Take a look at the present state of their
1 being . How they are being maintained . That type of thing . If we have
existing problems , maintenance problems . Drainage problems . Those types
of thinJL within the parks . It gave staff an opportunity to discuss those
1 types of items amongst ourselves and then eventually derived this booklet
which will prove useful throughout the year . It will prove useful in the
budget process and then will be updated on an annual basis from here on in .
11 Robinson : Who did most of the work on this? That 's a lot of work on this?
Hoffman: I went ahead and prepared the , if you recall back to the Chairman
1 Lynch 's days , he did a smaller version of this type of thing . So I piggy
backed up with his idea . Went ahead and created the forms and laid out the
format fcr the visits . We took notes and measurements and those types of
1 things so we can begin some standardization when we 're purchasing
additional equipment . Why always be purchasing something different? - Start
some standardization throughout the park system . This will allow that and
then we just went ahead and plugged those checks and numbers and
1 specifications in and had it typed into a nice form so it 's very easy to
look through . It 's in alphabetical form and then as well the park
inventory and the notes and observations and specifications face each other
1 so you can look at that at the same time .
Lash : I had just two questions . One was on Minnewashta Heights Park . It
says that it does not contain pea gravel surfacing? Is that something that
IIwe 're planning on doing something about?
Hoffman : We ' ll take a look at that . It will be an item potential for the
1 border wood of probably less or right around the $1 ,000 .00 mark . Less than
a $1 ,000 .00 . I think we should look at that as a funding venture to
squeeze into the $175 ,000 .00 CIP for 1991 so we accomplish that . There it
1 is . It 's right underneath your nose but I never knew it did not have
surfacing .
Lash: And the other one was Rice Marsh Lake Park where the volleyball
1 court has no sand?
Hoffman: Again , it 's not as much a concern as a safety concern but it 's
1 played as is right now as a turf surfacing . It can or cannot remain that
way .
II Pemrick: Is this booklet available for Joe Q citizen? I mean it 'd be a
nice reference for everyone in the City if they expressed an interest .
Hoffman : I think what we 're working towards here is , it 's my intent to
1 begin formulation with the Commission 's assistance in a city park map and
index . We had additional parklands , the 4-5 parcels in the Chanhassen
Hills , Lake Susan West area which we wanted to bring on line prior to
11 putting that investment into a piece of , a brochure of that type . But now
I
Par and RE_ Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 19
. r
that thoac are on line , I think as part of the 1992 budget process we
should take a look at that formulation of a city park index which then will
drew this up . Include new glossy photos , etc . Park map for the locations '
that then can be made available to the public .
Pemrick : That wo, ' d be great . Also , on the Bandimere Park there 's the
volleyball court for 1991 . Will that be this summer do you think?
Hoffman : Correct . '
Pemrick : And where on the field , do you know where that 's going to be
placed? r
Hoffman : It will go up in the , if you 're looking from the street , the far
left corner ,
Pemrick : By the playground equipment?
Hoffman : Yep . Back in the area inbetween the playground equipment and the
retention pond there . Behind the soccer field .
Pemrick : Oh , okay . Way back there?
Schroer. : Okay . Anything more on item 4?
APPROVE PURCHASE OF PLAY EQUIPMENT , SOUTH LOTUS LAKE AND SUNSET RIDGE PARK . II
Hoffman : The 1991 park acquisition , development and capital improvement II program identified expenditures of $10 ,000 .00 for play equipment at South
Lotus Lake Park and then a total expenditure of $19 ,000 .00 for general
development at Sunset Ridge Park , the newly named Outlot G . Of the
$19 ,000 .00 , $12 ,000 .00 was earmarked for play equipment at that site . In II
order to g- ahead and take a look at all playground vendors , to be fair to
those playground vendors , I went ahead and asked for proposals providing
each different playground vendor with a play area description which are
enclosed in Your packet and then again the other requirements and the
information explaining them to them what these play areas will look like .
Five companies that were contacted all chose to send back a proposal .
Those were critiqued by myself to take a look at play value , number of I/
platforms , number of play amenities . Those types of things . Comparison
from one to the other . Their performance in the park and recreation field . I
Their past history . Those types of things . Basically coming up with the
best overall product for the dollar . Intentionally , as you know , Earl F .
Anderson Company and Landscape Structures is the company representative
which the City has worked with for a number of years almost exclusively .
So they were somewhat surprised to see me take this approach to go ahead
and approach 5 separate vendors . But surprisingly or not , they still came
out on top . That may show some effect that they indeed did have some
competition this go around and they need to provide the City with a good
product but they came up with the most play decks . The largest number of
poles . The largest number of structures . Their quality of equipment and
their reputation in the Metropolitan and indeed the Minnesota area and the II
I
Park .sr-H P -._ Commission Meeting
April 2? , 19°1 - Page 20
I
fact that they 're almost located out our back door . The service we receive
from Lsnd_care Structures is just impecable . So with that , it is my
recommendation to go ahead and accept the proposals from Earl F . Anderson
and Land_cape Structures in the amount of $10 ,000 .00 and $12 ,000 .00
respectivefully for play equipment purchase for South Lotus Lake Park and
Surat Ridge Park .
Schroers : It appears to me that you 've done your homework on this Todd and
I 'm prepared to entertain a recommendation .
Lash: Can I ask him a question first? .
Schroers : Certainly .
Lash : I like the way that you did two different age groups since they are
11 close to each other but I just wanted to ask , how you decided which one
should be in which area? Did you have any kind of input from neighborhoods
or did you have any idea that one particular area has more of the smaller
children?
Hoffman- Basically what I used is my inclination in that the area adjacent
to Scuth Lotus Lags Park is an older portion of the city . Tends to have
some established homes . Established residents . Thus older children .
Sun _ t ridge or Lake Susan Hills West is very new . The type of families
that are moving in there are very young . You need to approach play
11 equipment as you say from the 8 different age levels and it is then our
intention to go ahead with the second phase . Meet the needs of that other
age group hut it was just to , in my opinion , the route to go this first go
around . ray?
Koub e ky • Yeah , that makes sense .
Lash: The way it is? Okay . And then the . only other thing was on the
Lotus Lake one where you have ages 6 to 12 for Phase 1 . Would it be
possible pricewise to put in the swings instead of the diggers? Would that
be a comparable switch or not? The diggers I think are more in line with
the younger children and I think the swings would get more useage both from
young and old . I always like to see the swings going up if they can .
Hoffman: At South Lotus Lake?
Lash : At Lotus , yeah . I don 't know how those things compare in price .
Hoffman: A 3 unit swingset of that nature , free standing is $1 ,105 .00 .
The two super scoop diggers are somewhat less than that but we certainly
could , I 'm not sure what else that 's small that could be pulled out of
there .
Lash : I really liked the configuration ofi this . The 6 to 12 and if it
1 meant pulling something else out then I guess I wouldn 't want to mess
around with it because I like it the way it is . I just thought if it was a
comparable switch , I would be in favor of doing that .
I
•
Par ; and Re = Commission Meeting
•
I/
April 23 , 1? 1 - Page 21
Hoffman : I ' ll take a look at that . I believe the super scoop diggers come
in arn,und $350 .00 apiece so we 'd be a few hundred dollars short . $300 .00
to $401 .C'0 short . Again , in the 1992 budget , although we may not be able
to
furd th7 entire second phase , $1 ,000 .00 to pick up a swingset at that
time ma >' be appropriate . Swings are eternal fun . Everybody can identify
with swings . I agree with you .
Echroers : Okay . Are we ready for a motion?
Robinson : I make a motion that we recommend that the City Council accept
the price quotes from Earl F . Anderson and Associaties for $10 ,000 .00 and
• $12 ,000 .00 for play equipment on South Lotus and Sunset Ridge Park .
Schroers: Is there a second?
Pemric} : Cecond . '
Robinson moved , Pemrick seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City Council accept the price quotes from Earl F . I/Anderson and Associaties for $10,000.00 and $12 ,000 .00 for play equipment
on South Lotus Lake Park and Sunset Ridge Park , respectively . All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Lash : Just a side note on that Todd . I did like the fact that you did
send that out for bids . I just think that 's always a good idea .
Erhart : Yes Todd . You 're a thrifty shopper .
ORDINANCE AMENDMENT - NO GLASS CONTAINERS WITHIN PARKS. I
Hoffman : Again , this item has a past history of discussion at the
Commission level . We 've talked about it . It 's always been the practice to '
try to prohibit or discourage glass containers within the city parks but
there 's never been a city ordinance as stated in this memo . So acting on
Commissioner Lash 's inquiry at the joint meeting as to what the particular
status of that city code was , I went ahead and did some further research
into this . . .
( There was a tape change during the staff report . The quality of the
recording is poor of the following discussion so it 's hard to hear exactly II
what is being said . )
Lash: Since I 'm the one who brought it up and it 's basically , I was just II
asking the question . I wasn 't necessarily saying that I felt one way or
the other . I think it would be nice if it would help to solve the problem
but if it isn 't going to help the problem , then I don 't know if it 's worth II
bothering . If people don 't enforce it and people don 't follow it . . Is it
worth even putting it on the books? I don 't know . I guess I 'm interested
in other people 's opinions .
I/
Andrews: Todd , how big of a glass problem in the park did you have last
year?
I
I
IIPare and Rec Commission Meeting
April ^? , I° 1 - Page 22
II
Hoffm_ r,: Clary= within city park` is just like an ongoing problem . Every
tirre I 'm on site at a park waiting to meet somebody , I can spend my entire
il time. Feick i n , up Class fragments _ . . So it 's a real problem . You talk about
maintenanc = coats . Maintenance dollars to have those people there on site
as they 're mowing and pushing around picnic tables , having to stop and pick
IIup glass bottles . It 's just a nightmare .
Schroers : I would like to see an ordinance for no glass . I know that
II that 's an enforcement issue that we probably haven 't dealt with . For one
thing when people , the type of people that are out there breaking glass in
the park and also keeping an eye out for the authorities and when the
people that come in there that could address that situation , they don 't
I find it until they 're looking the other way driving out and then . . . It is
probably a difficult thing to enforce and I think that an officer might
have a hard time justifying why he is . . . I think it 's a hard issue to
I address . I guess we can 't put up signs pertaining to glass unless we
really do have an ordinance to back it up but I think that it 's just one of
those general educational process to get people to be more considerate of
II the park and the environment . I think employees , part time , summertime ,
seasonal employees , the maintenance people or anyone that happens to see
someone abua'inD or not using glass or any containers or garbage in an
acceptable manner , should have the right to stop and at least offer
direction that would be appropriate .
Pemrick : Is it mainly pop bottles or beer bottles? Because if it 's beer
bottles , that 's already addressed . . .
Lash : It 's not illegal .
IIPemrick : Oh it isn 't?
Robinson: We 've got a litter law don 't we or the State of Minnesota does?
' I mean at least it gives you the right to go do something if you see
o c cd;' littering .
I Lash : You know the thing that I think happens is the teenagers and the . . .
at night and nobody 's out at the beach during the middle of the day when
people are there smashing bottles around . I mean you just don 't see that
happen but it happens . You go in there in the morning and it 's there . The
II only thing that I 'm thinking maybe it would help , there are perfectly
common sense people out there who go to the beach and they bring the
mineral water or whatever and they put their bottles in the garbage just
II like they should but then at night , maybe when the kids come , they take
them out ., Maybe it 's not even bottles the kids have brought themselves but
they can get them out of the garbage and smash them or maybe it 's racoons
II even knocking the garbage over or whatever so even if well meaning people
who would put them in the garbage . If they just went in the garbage to
start with , maybe that would help cut down . I don 't know .
IIRobinson : I think you could take a shot at writing something up myself .
Koubsky: How costly and involved is that?
I
I
I/
Park an:' Pe_ Commission Meeting
April 22 , 12?1 - Page 23 I
Hoffman: Very little cost involved .
Schroer:: How much involvement for the City Council to amend it? '
Hoffman : It 's just two meetings of the ordinance amendment . And any 11 discussion they would like to entertain .
Andrew; : Would they be looking for a presentation since it was our idea?
Hoffman: No . Basically an ordinance amendment of this type would be put
on the agenda and if they pulled it off for any type of discussion , staff
at that time would answer any questions they had . ,
Schroers : Well let 's go for it . At least then we ' ll be able to put up a
sign .
Koubsky : . . .meeting about a possible park ranger or park patrol . There
again though too , I think during the day it 's probably not abused . . .glass ,
I don 't_ think much of it 's broken during the day . Maybe it does .
Schrc r : h. du have the CSO 's . Do their hours extend beyond that as a
normal park hours?
•
Hoffman : YE -. . . .off peak hours to take a look at that situation .
Schroars : Oka, .
Koubsky : It would be a thing though where we would be banning glass so if
we do get a patrol out there and they saw people at a picnic or whatever I
using glass containers , they could issue some sort of warning .
Hoffman : Again , that 's all part of the educational process . Not only
educate the public but educate our CSO 's and Public Safety Department and II
get the word down . . . That can all take place on an administrative level .
Schroer= : Good . Anything further on that? I
CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM UPDATES:
A . SOUTH LOTUS LAKE BOAT ACCESS DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT PROJECT . I
Hoffman : Item 8 , Capital Improvement Update is real good news . 8( a ) ,
South Lotus Lake Boat Access improvement project was presented at City
Council last evening . As you noted , if you went through the report , the
low bid came in at $32 ,611 .00 . Just over $6 ,000 .00 higher than the II engineer 's estimate . There are reasons stated for that discrepancy . Mainly
the fact that this is somewhat of a small project . There 's the unit ,
curbing unit , excavation units of asphalting of dirt work and seeding all
incorporated in the project but they 're all fairly small . The contractors II
however still have to bring in all the equipment to complete that small
segment , thus the price . . .subsequently slightly higher than the engineer 's
estimate . However , 7 bidders did bid . Real competitive bids . $32 ,000 .00 ,
to $41 ,000 .00 . Plus or minus a $9 ,000 .00 difference within the bids so the
•
P: ) ' fl_ d Commission Meeting
April 23 , 19�I - Page 24
laL did r.cpre:ent a fair and equitable bid for the City and the City
[ourcil did gn ahead and approve the award the bid to Kusske Cnnstructiu.�
I frc � [ � � �o f/'r this project .
B . CITY CENTER PARK .
m�
Hoffman : As stated in my memo there , we are continuing to work with the
playground advisory committee . That format has worked out very well . They
have done their work very expediciously . Completed things quickly and
I have met with Mark Koegler and Scott Harri from Van Doren-Hazard-
Stallinaz . They will be the architectural engineering firm addressing ' ' '
architectural engineering items in here that they to address by a
N�
professional firm as to grade , drainage , and those types of things .
��
Especially as it deals with the tennis court . Taking a look at it and a
professional assessment of what type of refurbishment or remodeling job on
thcse tennis courts would solve our problems . They 're formulating those
and I would anticipate that we would bring some of that information back to
thc cmmnisolon . . .and playground advisory commission in the Month of May .
And then mn� e forward as quickly as possible on these projects so again the
N� mojcrit / cf summer play at the tennis courts could take place on the new
surface and not the present cracked and . . ' Any questions on either of
thosE, prDj*cts before I move on?
C . HERMAN FIELD PARK , VERBAL; PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS PRESENTED TO THE
CITY COUNCIL ON 4/22/91 .
11 Hoffman: Hearing none . Item 8( c ) . Herman Field Park , plans and
specifications were presented to the City Council last evening . There were
no quasticns ' It was a consent item for the Council . Again , the plans and
N� opecs were separated but one main project , installation of the roadway and
��
the c.rading and then three alternate bids for installation of the trails .
Installation cf bituminous surface in the roadway and then installation of
N� a boardwalk . Those alternates were put in there so at the time that the
bids cons beck ` we can go ahead and pick and choose which alternates . . .
underneath that $50 ,000 .00 budget figure which we 're working with . So
advertising for bids is approved . Those will be placed in this coming
N�
week 's Villager and the Construction Bulletin . We should have an opening
of bids sometime in May and the eventual construction date sometime in June
to begin construction . One little catch that we have inCorporated in
there . Not only did we receive the 40 foot permanent easement from the . . .
|�
but for the construction of that road we need to look at temporary
easements . Temporary construction easements . Being 20 feet additional
temporary ersomento on the Schiferli property and then 25 feet on the Lang
property for the construction of that roadway . That will entail grading
and then removal of trees up to 6 inches in diameter on their property .
I have contacted Marcia and she did not seem to have any objection to that .
N� I have not been able to reach Betty or Ken Lang at this stage but look
forward to doing so in the next day or so so I can get an idea of what
their position on their temporary easement is .
m� Lash : One question on that one Todd . Remember when the residents were
here last time and there was a gentleman who had some concern about the
easements up from the cul-de-sac . I can 't remember what the name of the
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 25 I
street is up there , and he wanted to know specifically where it was and he
wantel to . . . ,
Hoffman : Oh , on the cul-de-sac on Piper Ridge?
Lash : Yeah . Did iything come of that? '
Hoffman : Again as I expressed that evening , I 'm uncomfortable going up
there and just marking that easement . The easement was taken for the
I/
purpose of maintaining a trailway . If that is not done , I 'm uncomfortable
marking the easement to allow people to then just walk on the easement
because an easement does exist there . It 's not a marked and established
use as a trailway so I would not encourage use of that to access the park .
He obviously had an interest in doing so but I know the Commission , some of
the members who have been on the commission for a while have taken a look
at that and talked to the homeowners and at that time decided to not go
ahead with the development of the trail access at that point . If it 's the
commission 's wish to go ahead and readdress that issue , we can certainly do
so . The trail easement that 's existing there is a 10 foot wide easement
on Lot 7 , inbetween Lots 6 and 7 running parallel to the common lot line .
Schroers : That easement is being maintained as a mowed yard right now and
the people are using it as yard space and it would be like , we would be
encouraging people to run through your maintained yard .
Lash: I 'm not supporting it . I 'm just wondering what the man ever did
with it because he seemed to be pretty determined in his interest and I
wondered if you had followed up on it . You didn 't follow up? That 's fine
with me . I
Schroers : At the edge of the maintained yard space , it drops off to a
point where it 's not even passable as an access . 1
•
Lash: I was out there and I agree totally but I just wanted to know if you
had done anything with it because I agreed with Todd 's comments that night
and I would hate to see people using that .
D. LAKE ANN PARK PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER, VERBAL; INITIAL PRESENTATION
TO CITY COUNCIL 4/22/91 . 1
Hoffman : A presentation was made to the City Council on an initial
presentation and then a basis for a capital improvement amendment to
include an .additional $90 ,000 .00 to the $110 ,000 .00 which is originally
approved by the Commission and the Council for the construction of the
actual building and then $100 ,000 .00 for the addition of the improvements
of the utilities would be funded under the sewer and water expansion fund .
The City Council was very receptive to the building . They agreed that Lake
Ann Park is a quality park and developing it , continuing development in
such a manner as this park shelter would , they thought very beneficial .
They did squeeze the dollar sign per se . What they would like to see staff II
do is go ahead and refine the cost figures on both the building itself and
then the utilities . Bring that back to them at a meeting , second City
Council meeting in May . Richard Wing and other members of the Council also I
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 26
' expressed a concern that they wanted to feel very comfortable that this was
a public improvement project which the citizens as a whole accepted for
this price tag which it has attached to it . They appealed to the editor- of
the villager to go ahead and publish the information to see if they could'
' get a feel from the citizentry as to how they feel about that particular
project . They did mention a possibility of a public hearing . They did not
take formal action that night to call a public hearing on that particular
item so we will continue to investigate that with the Mayor and other
Councilmembers to see if they wish to proceed at public hearings or if
they 're going to be satisfied with the response they get back from
residents as the publicity on the particular park shelter construction goes
II out .
Lash : We never had a public hearing did we? But it was published on the
1 agenda?
Hoffman: Correct . At least three times in 1991 .
Erhart : Do people normally when it 's published in the paper like that with
comments? Do they call you and tell you if they 're against it?
II Hoffman: Sure . In fact I think we all , we realize what Lake .Ann is to
this community but sometimes we even underestimate it . I was at a , made a
presentation this morning to a Mom 's Morning Out group . One particular
II individual moved out of the Rice Marsh Lake area in Chanhassen Estates to
get away from having to cross TH 5 . She moved in to , she and her family
moved into the Saddlebrook development . The reason. she cited for that is
specifically Lake Ann Park . Lake Ann Park is what kept them in the city .
They had limited access to it from that side of TH 5 and she as well stated
that we can at least get to the park now but even a more improved trail
system could get us in . . . So at times we underestimate the value of our
1 park systems .
E . LAKE SUSAN PARK , VERBAL .
IHoffman: As soon as the road restrictions come off , it is the intent of
Finley Bros . Construction to go ahead and begin moving back in for the
construction of the boat access area . Permits have been applied for from
Ithe Watershed District and the DNR for the installation of the boat access
and installation of the bridge across the creek area . To maintain that
trail segment between the park itself and then eventually the Lake
' Susan Hills West and Chanhassen Hills neighborhood . The wheels are all
turning and anticipating a quick finishing to that project . Based on the
performance of which Finley Bros . performed , went ahead and showed us last
I fall in the 2 1/2 months they were there . The park looked very good today
and I think by mid-June to late June it would be fully complete and moved
out of the area . Tentative plans are to go ahead and plan a type of. grand
opening sometime in the month of August for Lake Susan Park for the city
' residents .
Robinson: That 's a nice basketball court down there . Boy , my kids love
I it .
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 23 , 19Gl - Paoe 27
COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS:
Robinson : Just a comment . Last year we policed some of the parks , at
least in the downtown area . Picked up junk . I walked by Pauly 's or
Kenny 's parking lot every morning and I 'm appalled at the beer bottles and
junk laying out there . I think that 's true all over downtown . Can we get
together? It wouldn 't have to be a massive effort or big deal like last
year . If we did it on a Friday evening .
Ruegemer : . . .do it like even on a Thursday night . . .or Friday night .
Sometime next week .
Robinson: It 's getting kind of late almost .
Lash : Well when 's the clean up day? Isn 't that Saturday?
Pemrick : Who did the clean up along TH 101? That was really great . . .
Hoffman: You 've noticed the designations by the DOT of blue signs . .I '
think this past weekend was the weekend for everybody to do that because
TH 5 as well . . .
Pemrick: I was driving and I was getting all disgusted because I thought
somebody had thrown their garbage out and everything was neatly piled along
and stacked . ,
Erhart : I wanted to know who it was because it looked . . .
Pemrick : Yeah . It really looks clean and nice . i
Hoffman: Just take a look at the signs . The 2 mile segment right here in
town is . 1
Erhart : That church .
Lash: Out by Lake Ann and west is , the one out by Minnewashta . 1
Hoffman: All sorts of people jumped onto that band wagon . This one
section is two parents and two children . So a family of four takes care of I
that 2 mile stretch of highway 5 .
Schroers: Does anyone else have a commission presentation? I
Andrews : I do . And this came a concern after the presentation on Bluff
Creek . I guess hearing some of the urgency of that project , I feel
strongly that we really are going to have to aggressively take some action .
We have talked about a sub-committee or a separate working group . Maybe
not even specifically involving the Park Commission . . .and I don 't know
where that starts . If it 's at the City Council or Park Board has authority
to create an entity to deal with that project . I think it 's too big to be
handled on kind of an occasional basis . It needs continuing action . I
also think it needs to be a separate entity so as I mentioned before , if
there 's funding . A source or a designated target for funding so people
I
Park and Pe_ Commission Meeting
April 1°OI - Page 28
test E interested know that the money they give is going to be used for
that p ciect . I don 't know how .we can begin on that . What we can do on it
but that 's a big concern I feel .
Pemrick : Some of Gayle Vogel 's comments at the end there were very
alarming to me . didn 't realize that they were moving on that so fast .
' Andrews : Deer Brook?
Lash: Is that something that the Planning Commission could address sort of
on an emergency basis as far as maybe revising the setback variance or
whatever the ordinance is?
Hoffman: They certainly could . Again , if those lots back up to the creek
' there , the only enforcement currently in place would be the 75 foot setback
from the centerline of the creek .
Lash : I thought Jim 's idea was really a good one in that instead of going
footage from the creek , go footage from the ridge or something . Have them
lock at whet they think would be really a safe amount . That needs to be
addressed right away before these lots are sold and people are going to be
coming in for their building permits .
Erhart : Todd 's going to be talking to Paul . . .
Andrews : I 'd just like to see a way to provide Perry Dean and Erik Roth
with an officially endorsed body that they can channel their energies into .
' Those guys are so incredibly dedicated to this whole concept and I 'd like
to see a way that they can put that energy to use and to give other people
a way to coordinate with them . We 're talking a major project . Funding is
going to become the big issue . Where 's the money going to come from? How
' are we going to do it? I think the quicker we can move on that , the better
are chances are going to be .
Schroers : Well you know , as dedicated as those guys Seem to be towards
this project , I mean they have already initiated a lot of interest and a
good amount of effort in putting together their slides and their
presentation and I don 't think one would have to sell the program too hard
1 to ask them to be a part of the committee or organize the committee along
with people who have very strong feelings who have the interest and are
willing to sit down and say okay . We need to start somewhere . Let 's
1 organized something . Let 's set it up and I think it 's got to be a
committee of people that have the interest and who also have the time or
enough interest to make the time to get into it and go to work on it . I
' think that it 's more than worthwhile and it 's very important but I 've
stretched myself about as far as my little mind can handle at this point
and I 'm not willing to take on anything more because I don 't think I could
do it justification . But I think if there is anyone that feels strongly
' enough , contact these people and get involved . Say hey let 's sit down and
get together and talk about this and draw up a game plan and go to work on
it .
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 29
Andrews : My personal recommendation would be that the City Council create
a specific group to work specifically on that project . I agree with Larry
that I think a lot of us are over volunteered already and I think it needs
the attention of a very motivated group with one goal in mind . I think
that 's what it 's going to take to get it done .
Lash : The big problem is going to be , like you said , the money but I agree
the City Council , if they could maybe condense their presentation a little II
bit . Maybe it would be a good move for them to give their presentation to
the City Council . It 's an impressive show and I don 't know how anyone.
could watch that and not be supportive of preserving that area . '
Hoffman: We ' ll go ahead and see if this can percolate up to the City
Council level . Obviously when it reaches them , they have a variety of long
range , large issues which they 're taking a look at . This would be one of
perhaps a dozen . So we ' ll see what becomes of the field trips . Hopefully
we can get some of the Council members there . We 'll take a look at where
this heads with the Planning Commission . Continue to nuture it along . See
what eventually flourishes of the project . Absolutely it 's going to have
to be some type of creative long , long range type of project . You just
start taking a look at the figures and millions and millions of dollars
start popping into your head as far as actual acquisition costs . You know
600 acres at even $5 ,000 .00 an acre is , that 's 3 million dollars .
Erhart : Todd , can 't we acquire any of it through development?
Hoffman: Sure . But then again we 're playing the paradox of , you know if
you 're going to develop a huge residential area adjacent to this thing so
you have the right to take 10 acres in the valley , we certainly can do that I
but that has to progress naturally with development .
Schroers: And then the development is going to want water slides going
down .
Robinson: But he did bring up the conservation easement which doesn 't
sound expensive at all .
Lash: I don 't want to get into that tonight because it 's getting late but
I would like to have a better explanation of how that works . I don 't think
I 'm real comfortable with all the in 's and out 's of that .
Schroers : And I don 't know Todd if you have an interest in the trust for II
public land . If you have seen this or if you know if you have a copy or if
you would like mine to look at , I 'd be happy to give it to you because . . .
Assumption Creek you know but when changes were made , that just sort of got
on the back burner somewhere somehow . I guess that it would be interesting
to find out how active this organization is . I 've checked into it enough
to find out that there was a representative of this organization in Walker ,
Minnesota and I think there was also another one in Wisconsin somewhere .
Hoffman: I recall conversations with you concerning that .
Schroers: This really appears to be the ticket . They 've got it right
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 23 , 1991 - Page 30
here . Their purpose is to preserve open space and provide avenues for
acquisition . That 's what we 're looking for .
' Hoffman: Correct .
Lash: I 'm glad you brought that up again Jim . Was that you?
Andrews : Yeah . I would think if they had an entity that people could
donate money to , that 's going to become important . If they took that
presentation to parent groups or whatever and put the hat out for $100 .00 ,
' they 'll get it . People are relunctant to give money when they don 't know
who they 're giving it to . If they write out a check to Erik Roth , that 's a
lot scarier than writing it out to the Bluff Creek Preservation League or
whatever it 's going to be .
Schroers : Okay . If there isn 't any more under Commission presentations ,
then is there anything on the Administrative Packet?
Lash: I have a question on the Pheasant Hills survey . Have they been
pouring in?
Hoffman : Yes . They came in I would think about 50% response .
Lash : And how about on the letter to Dave Clough? The rejection of the
I - play area funding . Is that going to?
Hoffman : Just diminish the overall project somewhat . We 'll take a look at
the tennis courts . We 're now looking at an overlay situation . Not a
replacement . And then as well the west playground . All the site
preparation will still be done but the eventual new piece of equipment will
be just that much smaller .
' Lash: Okay .
' Robinson moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10: 15 p .m. .
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
1
1
1