6. Zoning Ordinance amending section 20-263 regarding portable toilets on beachlots II CITYOF
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Ile 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739
IMEMORANDUM -
TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager
IIFROM: Sharmin Al-Jaff, Planner I __ .___
THROUGH: Paul Krauss, Planning Director '3'2 el
IDATE: March 21, 1991
I SUBJ: Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-263 ,
Recreational Beachlots Regarding Portable Chemical
- Toilets
I .
On November 7, 1990, staff presented a proposed ordinance amendment
to Section 20-263 regarding portable chemical toilets on
recreational beachlots. Many issues were raised by the Planning
II Commission concerning setbacks from the lake, screening of the
structure and anchoring the structure to prevent tipping.
Chairman Emmings proposed that he would undertake drafting of an
II alternative ordinance. The Planning Commission tabled action on
the proposed ordinance and directed staff to conduct further
research (Attachment #1) .
1 On March 3, 1991, the Planning Commission reviewed the amended
proposed ordinance which was drafted by Chairman Emmings. The
amended version requires applicants to appear before the Planning
II Commission and City Council to secure a conditional use permit for
a portable chemical toilet on a recreational beachlot. The
applicant would then have to appear before the Planning Department
I on an annual basis to renew the permit. Staff would then ensure
that the applicant still meets all the conditions of approval prior
to approving the renewal permit. The time period in which a
portable chemical toilet would be allowed on a beachlot will be
I limited from June 15th to September 5th of each year. The consent
of all residents adjacent to the beachlot would have to be
submitted to the city in written form. The proposed setback for
II the structure from the ordinary high water mark will be 75 feet.
The proposed ordinance will allow staff to work with each
individual beachlot and assess each proposal on its own merits.
IThe Planning Commission recommended approval of proposed ordinance
amendment on a vote of 5 to 1. Staff still has some concerns with
the use of chemical toilets in close proximity to lakes. However,
II
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Portable Chemical Toilets
March 21, 1991
Page 2
' the draft ordinance addresses the issues that have been raised to
the extent feasible. As drafted, chemical toilets will be allowed
by a conditional use permit and will become part of the
recreational beachlot regulations.
RECOMMENDATION
Staff recommends the City Council adopt the following motion:
' "The City Council approves Zoning Ordinance Amendment #90-9 for
regulating portable chemical toilets as a conditional use permit on
recreational beachlots as shown in Attachment #4. "
ATTACHMENTS
1. Staff report dated November 7, 1990.
2. Planning Commission minutes dated November 7, 1990.
3 . Staff report dated March 3, 1991.
4 . Planning Commission minutes dated March 3, 1991.
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5. Proposed ordinance amendment.
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C TY 0 PC L.,TE: 11/7/90 1
CHANHASSEN
\'\ ' CC DATE: 11/19/90 ,
• CASE #: 90-9 ZOA
By: Al-Jaff/v
STAFF REPORT
1
PROPOSAL: Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-263 ,
Recreational Beachlots (2) Portable Chemical Toilets
Q LOCATION:
V
mmi APPLICANT: I
Q
PRESENT ZONING: 1
ACREAGE:
DENSITY: I
ADJACENT ZONING AND
LAND USE: N -
S -
E -
W -
i .. WATER AND SEWER:
0
PHYSICAL CHARACTER. :
Lid - 1
2000 LAND USE PLAN:
PA •
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ZOA for Recreational Beachlots
November 7, 1990
Page 2
' BACKGROUND
On August 13 , 1990, a variance request was heard by the Board of
Adjustments and Appeals requesting installation of a portable
chemical toilet during the summer seasons on the recreational
beachlot located on Minnewashta Parkway across from Linden Circle,
' for Minnewashta Creek Homeowners. The Board of Adjustments denied
the variance unanimously (Attachment #1) . The ordinance currently
prohibits the use of chemical toilets. While there was some desire
' to see the ordinance changed, it was believed that there was
insufficient reason to support a variance. The City Council agreed
with this determination on appeal but instructed staff to prepare
ordinance amendments that would allow for chemical toilets if this
could be done in an environmentally sensitive manner (Attachment
#2) .
Staff contacted the Department of Natural Resources and the Cities
of Eden Prairie, Bloomington, Burnsville, Eagan, Edina, Minnetonka
and White Bear Lake to find out if there were any regulations
' pertaining to portable chemical toilets. Each city that was
contacted recommended that Chanhassen not adopt such an ordinance
amendment that would allow portable toilets. These comments were
due to environmental concerns and difficulty with monitoring. The
City of Minnetonka had a problem with a portable toilet in a city
park which was vandalized and tipped over into Libbs Lake. The bay
was contaminated and had to be closed for the entire summer season.
The Department of Natural Resources views the matter in a different
perspective.
Portable toilets are not addressed under the state shoreland
guidelines, thus the DNR does not regulate them. Staff requested
a professional opinion from the DNR. A letter from them will be
presented to the Planning Commission but they commended Chanhassen
' for trying to deal with a difficult problem. It was recommended
that the structure be set at least 50 feet from the high water
mark, that it be chained and anchored in such a fashion that they
' cannot be easily overturned and that they would be permitted under
a conditional use permit. The DNR staff suspect that the desire to
utilize portable toilets will increase in the future as common
accesses and outlots become more prevalent. Staff has attempted to
' develop standards that recognize that chemical toilets have
potential environmental and visual impacts. We also tried to deal
with the fact that their placement on recreational beachlots could
1 further impact adjacent residences due to odor, noise, etc. Thus,
the following standards are proposed:
1. A 50 foot setback from the ordinary high water mark.
2. A 20 foot setback from the side yard.
1
ZOA for Recreational Beachlots
November 7, 1990
Page 3 '
3 . The portable toilet be firmly anchored to the ground.
4. The portable toilet be fully screened by landscaping. ,
5. The portable toilet shall be cleaned as needed to avoid odor
and environmental problems. '
6. The facilities shall be constructed of materials compatible
with the materials used in the neighborhood.
SUMMARY
Staff continues to have concerns over the use of chemical toilets
in close proximity to lakes. However, the draft ordinance
amendment addresses the issues that have been raised to the extent
feasible. As drafted, chemical toilets will be allowed by
conditional use permit and will become part of the recreational
beachlot standards.
STAFF RECOMMENDATION 1
Staff recommends the Planning Commission recommend approval of the
following: I
Section 20-263, Recreational Beachlots is hereby amended as
follows:
(2) No structure, portablc toilct, ice fishing house, camper
trailer, tent, recreational vehicle or shelter shall be
erected, maintained or stored upon any recreational
beachlot.
Add the following: '
(16) Portable chemical toilets may be permitted on
recreational beachlots subject to the following minimum
standards:
a. Front setback - 30 feet
Side setback - 20 feet
Setback from ordinary high water mark - 50 feet
b. The portable toilet shall be firmly anchored to the
ground to prevent tipping.
c. The portable toilet shall be fully screened by
coniferous vegetation. I
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ZOA for Recreational Beachlots
November 7, 1990
Page 4
d. If a permanent structure is built to house the
toilet, it shall be designed to be compatible with
residential architecture.
e. The owner shall be responsible for servicing the
' toilet as often as required to eliminate odor and
environmental problems.
ATTACHMENTS
1 1. Staff report dated August 13, 1990.
2 . Board of Adjustment minutes and City Council minutes dated
August 13, 1990.
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- \\\I',1 . CITY O F ,..JA DATE: 8/13/90
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CC DATE: 1
C UANHAE1 ____
CASE #: 90-5 Variance
By: -Jaff/v 1
STAFF REPORT
1
PROPOSAL: Installation of a Portable Chemical Toilet During the 1
Summer Season
ims
Z LOCATION: Recreational Beachlot Located on Minnewashta Parkway
1
Q Across from Linden Circle Action H1,,, ..
o k�V &DA} 1
'11 APPLICANT: Minnewashta Creek Homeowners Association ,,_
•�°11J c/o Gene and Nancy Christianson __ I
6i. 6561 Kirkwood Circle
Excelsior, MN 55331 ;�E'�--. =-�C'
4 .
Deti s, ,,:-i;
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L— l3 —9 0-
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PRESENT ZONING: PUD-R, Planned Unit Development Residential 1
ACREAGE: Approximately 9,600 square feet
DENSITY: N/A 1
ADJACENT ZONING AND I
LAND USE: N - RSF; single family
S - RSF; single family
Q E - Lake Minnewashta
W - PUD; single family 1.
Q • WATER AND SEWER: Available to the site.
PHYSICAL CHARACTER. : The site is a riparian lot to Lake 1
W Minnewashta.
∎— 1
2000 LAND USE PLAN: Low Density Residential 1
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Minnewashta Creek HOA Variance
August 13, 1990
Page 2 '
APPLICABLE REGULATIONS
Section 20-263 (2) prohibits portable chemical toilets to be
maintained or stored upon any recreational beachlot (Attachment
#1) . 1
ANALYSIS
The applicant is proposing to install a portable chemical toilet '
during the summer seasons on the recreational beachlot owned by
Minnewashta Creek Homeowners Association. The applicants believe
that the toilet is necessary for the use of the beachlot and that
it represents a safety improvement since it would avoid having
pedestrian crossing Minnewashta Parkway to use facilities located
in their homes. The Zoning Ordinance prohibits such use. Staff
considered amending the Zoning Ordinance to allow portable toilets
to be installed on recreational beachlots and contacted other
cities to find out what their experience has been. The Cities of
Eden Prairie, Bloomington, Burnsville, Eagan, Edina, Minnetonka and
White Bear Lake were contacted and each recommended that the City
of Chanhassen not adopt such an ordinance amendment that would
allow portable toilets. The City of Minnetonka had a problem with
a portable toilet in a City park being vandalized and tipped over
into Libbs Lake. The bay was contaminated and had to be closed for
the entire summer season.
A variance may be granted by the Board of Adjustments and Appeals
or City Council only if all of the following criteria are met:
a. That the literal enforcement of this chapter would cause undue
hardship. Undue hardship means that the property cannot be
put to reasonable use because of its size, physical
surroundings, shape or topography. Reasonable use includes a
use made by a majority of comparable property within 500 feet
of it. The intent of this provision is not to allow a
proliferation of variances but to recognize that and develop
neighborhoods pre-existing standards exist. Variances that
blend with these pre-existing standards without departing
downward from them meet this criteria. I
* Staff surveyed the area within 500 feet of the beachlot
and found two additional beachlots that are located
within the survey area. The two are Minnewashta Heights
and Pleasant Acres Beachlots. - Both contain a portable
toilet. These toilets predate the Zoning Ordinance
pertaining to the beachlots, therefore, they are
grandfathered in. Staff does not advocate the use of
these two existing non-conformities to support granting
the variance request. We note that unlike setbacks '
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Minnewashta Creek HOA Variance
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August 13, 1990
Page 3
applied to homes or decks on RSP lots, a portable toilet
is not a principal or accessory use on a beachlot and is
specifically prohibited by the beachlot ordinance.
' b. The conditions upon which a petition for a variance is based
are not applicable, generally, to other property within the
same zoning classification.
' * The conditions upon which this petition for a variance is
based are applicable generally to other properties within
the same zoning classification. Thus, it would establish
' a precedent for all beachlots.
c. The purpose of the variation is not based upon a desire to
' increase the value or income potential of the parcel of land.
* This does not appear to be the case. The applicant is
I attempting to utilize the portable toilet as an amenity
but this will not have a significant effect on land
values.
d. The alleged difficulty or hardship is not a self created
hardship.
* Staff has difficulty in finding the hardship. When the
beachlot was designated as a beachlot, the owners were
fully aware that portable bathrooms are not a permitted
use. Users of the beach can still use bathrooms at their
' private homes as their homes are located within walking
distance.
I e. The granting of the variance will not be detrimental to the
public welfare of injurious to other land or improvements in
the neighborhood in which the parcel is located.
* The granting of the variance may be detrimental to the
public welfare if the portable toilet tipped over, Lake
Minnewashta would be polluted. In response, the
applicants have verbally indicated that they would have
the toilet serviced as frequently as required and that it
could be chained to prevent tipping. There is also the
' question of visual impact since portable toilets are not
attractive nor consistent with residential development.
ro The osed variation will notim air an ade If. proposed p adequate supply of
light and air to adjacent property or .substantially increase
the congestion of the public streets or increases the danger
of fire or endanger the public safety or substantially
diminish or impair property values within the neighborhood.
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Minnewashta Creek HOA Variance
August 13, 1990
Page 4 '
* The portable toilet is proposed to be located to the
northwest of the property. It is to be partly screened
by an oak tree. To the north of the proposed location of
the portable toilet is an existing fence. The proposed
portable toilet will not impair the supply of light and
air to adjacent property but will be an eyesore as
portable toilets are not an attractive scene.
RECOMMENDATION '
Staff is recommending denial of Variance #90-5. We believe that it
would set a precedent for all beachiots and that it could pose
visual and environmental problems.
If the Board of Adjustments and Appeals and City Council choose to
recommend approval, then staff would recommend the following
conditions:
1. The applicant shall work with staff to screen the portable
toilet.
2. The toilet shall be anchored firmly.
3 . The toilet shall be maintained and cleaned a minimum of two
times per week.
4 . Staff be directed to prepare an ordinance revision that would '
allow portable toilets on all beachiots.
ATTACHMENTS '
1. Zoning Ordinance Section 20-263.
2 . Site plan showing proposed location of portable toilet on
beachlot.
3 . Letter from applicant.
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§ 20-263 CHANHASSEN CITY CODE
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(1) Recreational beach lots shall have at least two hundred(200)feet of lake frontage.
y---(2) No structure,iortable chemical toilet,ice fishing house,camper,trailer,tent,recrea-
tional vehicle or shelter shall be erected, maintained or stored upon any recreational
' beach lot.
(3) No boat,trailer,motor vehicle,including but not limited to cars,trucks,motorcycles,
motorized mini-bikes, all-terrain vehicles or snowmobiles shall be driven upon or
' parked upon any recreational beach lot.
(4) No recreational beach lot shall be used for overnight camping.
(5) Boat launches are prohibited.
(6) No recreational beachlot shall be used for purposes of overnight storage or overnight
1 mooring of more than three (3) motorized or nonmotorized watercraft per dock. If a
recreational beachlot is allowed more than one(1)dock,however,the allowed number
of boats may be clustered. Up to three (3) sailboat moorings shall also be allowed.
' Nonmotorized watercraft such as canoes,windsurfers,sailboards and small sailboats
may be stored overnight on any recreational beachlot if they are stored on racks
specifically designed for that purpose. No more than six(6)watercraft may be stored
1 on a rack. The number of racks shall not exceed the amount of storage necessary to
permit one(1)rack slip per lot served by the beachlot;however,in no case shall there
be more than four(4)racks per beachlot. Docking of other watercraft or seaplanes is
411
permissible at any time other than overnight.
(7) The maximum number of docks on a recreational beachlot is three(3).No dock shall
' be permitted on any recreational beachlot unless the beachlot meets the following
conditions:
a. Shoreline of at least two hundred(200)feet per dock, and
' b. Area of at least thirty thousand(30,000)square feet for the first dock and addi-
tional twenty thousand(20,000)square feet for each additional dock.
' (8) No recreational beach lot dock shall exceed six (6) feet in width, and no such dock
shall exceed the greater of fifty (50) feet or the minimum straight-line distance
necessary to reach a water depth of four(4)feet.The width Out not the length)of the
' cross-bar of any "T" or "L" shaped dock shall be included in the computation of
length described in the preceding sentence. The cross-bar of any such dock shall not
measure in excess of twenty-five(25)feet in length.
' (9) No dock shall encroach upon any dock set-back zone, provided, however, that the
owner of any two(2)abutting lakeshore sites may erect one(1)common dock within
the dock setback zone appurtenant to the abutting lakeshore sites, if the common
dock is the only dock on the two(2)lakeshore sites and if the dock otherwise conforms
with the provisions of this chapter.
' (10) No sail boat mooring shall be permitted on any recreational beach lut unless it has at
least two hundred(200)feet of lake frontage.No more than one(1)sail boat mooring
shall be allowed for every two hundred(200)feet of lake frontage.
' Supp.No.2
1180
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' June 26, 1990
Dear Planning Commission,
' We represent the Minnewashta Second and Third Addition Homeowners
Association. We are a group of 43 homeowners who jointly own and maintain
a beach outlot on the east shore of Lake Minnewashta. There are currently
'' 40 occupied homes in which 63 adults and 57 children reside.
Approximately 60% of those families use the beach outlot regularly. On a
typical weekend, families remain at the beach outlot an average of 5 hours
-- longer if the weather is particularly warm. Besides the annual
' Association picnic in July, many association families host family
reunions, birthday parties, and small company picnics at this beach lot.
' The Association represents community-minded people who are concerned about
the environment. We have demonstrated responsibility by maintaining a
clean and well groomed beach outlot. We have provided containers for
recyclables. We also employ a natural lawn service that uses only organic
material to fertilize our lawn. We do not want to harm Lake Minnewashta
with unnecessary pollutants.
' The Association is requesting a variance to zoning ordinance section
20-263, specifically item. #2 which does not allow a portable chemical
toilet to be erected, maintained, or stored on any recreational beach
' lot. We are asking for this variance for the following reasons.
1 . Minnewashta Parkway creates a potential hazard to any pedestrian
crossing it. Although there is a painted crosswalk and
' pedestrian crossing signs posted, most vehicles ignore them, and
few motorists obey the posted 30 m.p.h. speed limit.
' 2. We believe in a clean environment and a clean lake to swim in.
While we would hope all beach users would take the time to go
home and use their own toilet facilities, we know this is not
' happening.
of time". Especially with small children who usually "run out
The portable chemical toilet companies we have
contacted have assured us that the unit would be cleaned a
minimum of once per week or more often if deemed necessary.
3. There would be no cost to the City of Chanhassen. The
Association will assume all costs for the rental and maintenance
Iof a portable chemical toilet.
Due to the lack of a city maintained recreational facility in or near our
neighborhood, we feel our request is fair and reasonable.
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Please consider our appeal and grant a variance that would allow us to
place a portable chemical toilet on our beach outlot for summer seasonal
use only. Attached you will find a map of our beach lot which indicates
the selected location of the portable toilet. Please note there is a
large tree which would protect it and hide it from the view of Minnewashta
Parkway.
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Sincerely, '
del-ram."11"1-"*"
Gene Christensen, President
- Nancy Christensen, Co-President
Minnewashta Creek Homeowners Assn.
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BOARD OF ADJUSTMENTS AND APPEALS MINUTES
AUGUST 13, 1990
' MEMBERS PRESENT: Jay Johnson
Willard Johnson
Carol Watson
STAFF PRESENT: Sharmin Al-Jaff
Paul Krauss
Willard Johnson opened the meeting.
Variance reguest for installation of a portable chemical toilet
during the summer seasons on the recreational beach lot located on .
Minnewashta Parkway across from Linden Circle Minnewashta Creek
homeowners. Sharmin Al-Jaff presented the staff report. Willard
Johnson opened the public hearing. Nancy Christenson,
representative of the Minnewashta Creek Homeowners Association,
indicated that the Association plans to screen the portable
' bathroom. When they first created this specific beachlot there
were five families living in the neighborhood, today there are 60
families, the majority of which use the beachlot. Minnewashta
Parkway is a busy road. There is a crosswalk but it is always
ignored. She indicated that the toilet can be chained to prevent
tipping. They do not plan on putting it in this year but they are
' requesting that approval be granted for next year. They plan on
putting it in starting Memorial Day through Labor Day.
The type of fencing is going to be a redwood fence and Nancy
' Christenson indicated that the beachlot is very well maintained and
they plan on keeping it that way. They do not want to become
offensive to anybody. Willard Johnson indicated that he has
received complaints about City portable toilets at parks that have
an offensive smell. Nancy Christenson indicated that if need be,
they will clean the toilets every day.
1 Jay Johnson indicated that in the staff report there was an
incident where a toilet was tipped in Minnetonka and whether Paul
Krauss would elaborate on that. Paul Krauss said that Libbs Lake
is located at the far southeast corner of Lake Minnetonka. The
City maintains a beach and one night a vandalism incident took
place where two portable toilets were tipped into the bay. The
' bacteria count was very high as a result and they had to close the
bay for the entire summer season. Paul Krauss also indicated that
this might not be the case in Lake Minnewashta. The
characteristics of Lake Minnewashta might be different than that
' bay, but the chance of vandalism is still there.
Jay Johnson wanted to know the difference between City and private
' beachlots. He indicated that there is no difference between a City
bathroom and a private bathroom. He said that the City should
start working on an environmental ordinance. It does not have to
be a part of the zoning ordinance, but that is the direction staff
1
Board of Adjustments and Appeals Minutes
August 13, 1990
Page 2 '
should go with creating an environmental ordinance. Paul Krauss
indicated that the difference between a private bathroom on a
beachlot and a City bathroom on a beachlot is the City monitors
portable bathrooms in parkas on a daily basis; and has direct
control over them. In a case where it is a private beachlot, the
City would be faced with a difficult inspection problem. Jay
Johnson recommended that staff take a look at the City as a whole
to see what is a temporary use and how it is monitored such as on
July 4.
Willard Johnson closed the public hearing. Jay Johnson moved to
deny the variance. Carol Watson seconded the motion. All voted in
favor.
Jay Johnson moved to request staff to further investigate portable
bathrooms and create an ordinance pertaining to portable bathrooms.
Carol Watson seconded the motion. All voted in favor.
Approval of Minutes: Carol Watson moved to approve the minutes
dated July 23, 1990. Willard Johnson seconded the motion. All
voted in favor.
Willard Johnson moved to adjourn the meeting. Jay Johnson seconded
the motion. All voted in favor.
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City Council Meeting - Augu.t 13, 1990
AWARD OF BIDS: UTILITY TELEMETRY SYSTEM, PROJECT 90-3.
Mayor Chmiel: Who's going to address that Dave?
Dave Hempel: Hopefully there's an individual from OSM here this evening.
Dean Sharpe: Your honor, members of the Council, my name is Dean Sharpe. I'm
' with OSM consultants. We prepared the plans and specs for this project. We
received three bids for this project on July 27th. They range from a low bid of
$270,596.00 to a high bid of $478,687.00. This project utilized
' pre-qualification of bidders. We checked references beforehand. Past experience
in projects of this nature and such. We pre-qualified four parties to bid and
three of them did so. The low bid we find to be responsive. Have done projects
' like this before and are presently serving the City and we recommend award to
Bentec.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. This is something that I have been hoping for us to
' get for a long time because over the overall run, it's going to save us a lot of
dollars. A lot of labor and a lot of truck time. A lot of checking every
mornings and labor costs are going to lower in itself so I can't make the motion
at this particular time because we're lacking to have 3 members here. If one of
the Council people can hear it, I'd like them to come back in here wherever they
may be. Tom?
Councilman Johnson: Well, we can make the motion and the second. We just can't
vote on it.
Mayor Chmiel: Right . I'll make that motion.
Councilman Johnson: I'll second it .
1 Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Tom Workman, can you come in
here? Oh Ursula. Never mind.
Councilman Johnson: Just say yes Ursula.
Mayor Chmiel: There's a motion on the floor with a second to approve the award
of bids for utility supervisory control and data acquisition Project No. 90-3.
' Resolution $90-101: Mayor Chmiel moved Councilman Johnson seconded to
Y , award
the bid for the Utility Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition (SCADA) System
to Bentec in the amount of $270,596.00. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
VARIANCE REQUEST TO INSTALL A CHEMICAL TOILET ON A BEACHLOT LOCATED ON
MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY ACROSS FROM LINDEN CIRCLE, MINNEWASHTA CREEKS HOMEOWNERS
ASSOCIATION.
Councilman Johnson: At the Board of Adjustments and Appeals tonight we denied
the petition. Although there was a lot of sentiment that the use of chemical
toilets at a beachlot may be appropriate versus the use of the lake for the same
' reason that the chemical toilet's used. But we went way beyond this beachlot to
say well we've also got these at all of our city parks. Those adjacent to
1 21
I
City Council Meeting - Augus. 13, 1990
waterways and everything else. That it may not be the zoning ordinance that I
should be totally controlling port-a-potties or chemical toilets and that's why
I've asked for it to be on the Council Presentation tonight so we can get some
action on looking at the overall use of portable potties or chemical toilets
throughout the city. The people are still here from the Association I see.
Mayor Chmiel: If anyone would like to come forward and address Council in
regard to your particular project.
Nancy Christensen: My name is Nancy Christensen. I live at 6561 Kirkwood and
I'm the President of the Association.
Mayor Chmiel: You're aware as to the position,' that the Board of Appeals has
reviewed your subject matter of a port-a-potty on your beachlot? As it appears,
there seems to be some inadequacies throughout the city and I really sort of
agree that we should review this to come up with a conclusion and I think this
year is probably almost gone by the wayside unfortunately but this is something
that we can have at least an answer for this, at least for next year's beachlot
so unless you have something else you'd like to say, we'll be more than happy to
listen.
Nancy Christensen: Well, it 's not necessarily have a lot to say. I have some
things to say. That we have about 60 families using this beachlot. We really
feel that it would be better for our ecology to have a portable chemical toilet
on site rather than use the lake, the bushes or whatever which is what people
do. Minnewashta Parkway is almost an impossible road to travel or to cross and
it 's really difficult to send small children across it. You can't do it. We
have a crosswalk and it 's ignored. The 3 years I've lived there, not one person
has ever stopped for me or my children. So for that reason we feel that it's
somewhat of a hardship not having a toilet down there. Sometimes there's really
large gatherings and we don't have, there's nothing there. What do we do with
100 people and that's why we're asking for a seasonal use permit and that's it.
Councilwoman Dimler: I do have a question. On the two lots that are there that ,
were grandfathered in that do have chemical toilets, can somebody address how
that 's been working out?
Nancy Christensen: Well I have a letter from them. ,
Councilwoman Dimler: Are they seasonal?
Nancy Christensen: They're seasonal and the people I've spoken to from there, 1
the President and the secretaries, they said they've never ever had a problem.
It's just there like the sand is there. Like the water is there. People expect
it to be there. They've never been abused.
Councilwoman Dimler: And nobody's tipped it over? The fears that were voiced.
Nancy Christensen: No. And our beachlot we plan on probably, I'm not sure if
this we will do it right away but more than likely we'll put a cement slab down.
Stake it down and put a fence around it so it can't be seen. It can be cleaned
in 2 hours notice. I mean it will automatically be cleaned once a week,
probably twice a week, especially in the months of July when it's really warm.
22 1
I
11 City Council Meeting - August. 13, 1990
I mean today when I was down there, there were probably 25 people down there.
Most of them children.
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mayor, is this something that we can act on tonight?
Is this something we're going to act on?
Councilman Johnson: I have it also under Council Presentations but we can move •
it to this point just as easily and direct staff to look into it.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I think it would be good for you to move that up right now
Jay to this particular one because it 's one and the same. So maybe if you'd
just reiterate.
Councilman Johnson: Well basically we want to look into chemical toilets
' throughout the city. Construction sites. Where should they be located? You go
into a construction site and they locate it right next to the creek. Setbacks
from wetlands. Property line setbacks. The whole use of chemical toilets at
the 4th of July celebration and whatever. Numbers for the numbers of people.
What were the problems in these other cities that they don't recommend them
being on beachlots even though they have them themselves on their city parks at
the beaches. I'm not sure if the one in Minnetonka got thrown in the lake or
just dumped over and it ran into the lake. They don't carry that much stuff in
them. But if it 's a matter of it getting thrown into the lake, that can be
solved by anchoring them and requiring it to be anchored. You can require it to
be visible from the street. There's lots of requirements that can be put on
there to where you know, if it's more visible it's less likely to be vandalised.
' Councilman Workman: Visibility is one of the problems people see with them.
Mayor Chmiel: We've had ours in the city park, Greenwood Shores Park for the
last 3 years and we've not had any problems with that.
Councilwoman Dimler: And we have a homeowners association too where a lot of
people think it's going to be a good idea to put one down there.
' Councilman Johnson: You don't have one at yours?
1 Councilwoman Dimler: No, we don't. But a lot of people ask about it.
Councilman Johnson: Yours is a bigger homeowners association than theirs. A
lot bigger lot too.
Councilwoman Dimler: Right.
Councilman Johnson: The thing is, there's going to have to be a minimum
distance back from the lake and all kinds of rules and regulations on how to do
this before we start granting them. That's what I'm proposing that we look into
is what are those rules and regulations.
Councilwoman Dimler: Greenwood Shores has had one huh? How they'd get it?
Mayor Chmiel: It's a city park.
23
1
City Council Meeting - AugL _ 13, 1990 1
Councilman Workman: The City's different. '
Councilwoman Dimler: Ah, I don't like that. I don't like that .
Mayor Chmiel: That's the point that I brought it up you know. The City parks 1
have it . Beachlots can't. I guess I don't understand.
Councilwoman Dimler: Free water and chemical toilets. 1
Councilman Johnson: But the one at Carver Beach is right up next to the road.
It's the only place you can service it and it's probably 50 foot from that
nearest house.
Councilman Workman: How many beachlots on Lotus?
Councilwoman Oimler: Private or public?
Councilman Workman:- Both. '
Councilwoman Dimler: There's Carver Beach. There's ours. There's a public
landing. I
Mayor Chmiel: Three that I'm aware of.
Councilman Johnson: Oh, more than that. '
Councilwoman Dimler: A public and two privates that I know of.
Councilman Johnson: There's two private next to you and then there's a private
over on the other side.
Councilwoman Dimler: That's right but they don't do anything to keep up their 1
lot. There's another private one that is not kept up yeah.
Councilman Johnson: There's at least 3 private beachlots on the east side that '
I know of.
Brian Windschitl: Jay, my name is Brian Windschitl. I live at 6591 Joshua
Circle and I don't know if it will help you at all but I feel everybody has a
bad taste for chemical toilets. They've come a long ways. If they're tipped
over right now, they're spill proof unless they're totally overused. Most
people think of chemical toilets as like when they go to the State Fair or any
functions which they're over used tremendously. I work construction so I'm with
them all the time and within 2 hours I could have somebody out there and take
care of it. I mean if somebody comes in to me and tells me that they don't like
the odor or they don't like how dirty it is in there, in 2 hours I can have
somebody out there and have it cleaned so I think most of the people and
probably you people, the only time you see them is at 4th of July function or
State Fair where like I say they're just totally over used. They're not as bad
as they have been 20 years ago. I mean they've come a long ways and they are
designed to be staked down. They have the holes right in the runners. Kids
don't even care to tip them over. That kind of went out with the twist too.
They're too lazy to tip them over. You know the other thing that we kind of
24
1
' City Council Meeting - Augus. 13, 1990
' feel, being on the far west end of town is, we don't really have a place for our
kids or for that matter for us to go and that is our park out there and there's
a chemical toilet on every park in the city that I believe and I don't really
see a problem. We don't have, I noticed in the Boards of Appeals there they
said that they thought that it might be too close to the neighbors. Well, the
neighbors got the letter and there's nobody here that would have a problem with
having it out there so I mean.
Councilman Johnson: She's dead. One is.
' Mayor Chmiel: If you got a comment from there you'd be. Thank you. Jay, do you
want to finish what you were saying?
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, I do agree that the technology of chemical toilets
has changed a lot. I was just at the Star of the North games and they must have
had, or not Star of the North. USA Cup Soccer Tournament and they must have had
40-50 of those things everywhere but they had a truck continously going around
' emptying them at that thing. After spending some time in the mountains recently
with what they call the pit toilets, no running water or anything. Just a
building and the pit underneath it , this is a vast improvement over that. My
' gut reaction without actually getting any real study on this is it's better off
to have a chemical toilet the proper distance away from the property line and
the lake than it is for the kids to go in the lake and create a warm spot .
Councilman Workman: I'd like to move this along. I think we all understand
that this is getting into the dog you know what scooper rule here. I'm sure
everybody's aware and the homeowners are aware of the aesthetics. The potential
pollution problem. I think we have to be very careful about, because once you
say go on this, you're going to say it. We have 11 lakes or so and so it's
going to be a big impact and so I think we're all sympathetic to the situation
out there and what kids do and what even some adults do when it 's late and
they're drinking beer and everything else. And so I just think we should be
very careful about how, and I think that's what the Board of Adjustments was
saying that why did the Council in the past say, the ordinance in fact say none
I of these toilets. If there's been changes and innovations then we should look
at them and we should change with the times if it's prudent but it's a very
delicate situation I think.
' Resident : Are you talking about all size beaches? Is that what you're talking
about or are you talking about the City?
' Councilman Workman: Well apparently the City has special priviledges. We can
put them anywhere we want apparently.
Councilman Johnson: Our city park's not a beachlot.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes it is.
' Resident: . . .private access beaches?
Councilman Workman: Right. I'm just saying it's not just one Satellite. It 's
' many.
11 25
City Council Meeting - AugL,.t 13, 1990
Resident: Well how many times has this been brought to you by another private '
association that want port-a-potties?
Councilman Workman: Well Ursula's has said that they want one. I
Resident : So that's one?
Councilman Workman: I'm just saying, when you open up the gate then it's going I
to happen probably everywhere. I can sit here and predict sure but I mean.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't know if you're aware but we do have presently a City Code '
that does read, no structures, portable chemical toilet, ice fishing houses,
camper trailers, tent, recreational vehicles or shelters shall be erected,
maintained or stored upon any recreational beachlot. We have to change the Code
first of all but I think what we have to do is look into it and study what's the
best way for us to go about this to make sure we're not causing any more given
problems than what could exist. I guess that's what Tom is really say right? '
Councilman Workman: Yeah. In addition to decks and everything else because we
have those variance requests all the time and we have to say look at the
overall. And again, it doesn't mean I'm against you having a, I'll refer to it
as a Satellite, out there but once we say yes, then that's a part of the Code
that's going to, somebody's going to come in with a deck and more the other side
and all the way around and it 's going to be. And so the overall protection of
the lake is what I'm looking at .
Nancy Christensen: You can't say it's alright to use just temporarily on a
trial basis?
Mayor Chmiel: Not according to our Code. We'd have to change the Code first.
Resident : But with that Code, would it be taking into consideration that seeing
you have a 45 mph, which everybody drives 70 mph speed limit and you have a
crosswalk that these people are supposed to slow down at and you've got a trail
of small children, 8,000 lawn chairs, 2 alligators trying to get them across
this crosswalk and it's very dangerous. I've called and complained to the
police department because my kids have almost been picked off trying to get
them. You know they've got to pee and you don't want them peeing in the lake
and it sounds trivial but it is a frightening thing to a small child and we've
got like under 9, we've got about 50 kids out there. It's a real frightening
thing. It is. You can't say well just run home and use the bathroom or run
home because you have to be there to watch those kids to cross that walk. And
even the policeman that I talked to said hey, we're not out here and unless we
get complaints, they don't come. 1
Mayor Chmiel: I've sat out on Minnewashta Parkway several different times
watching the speeds and not having a radar gun unfortunately, I would say yes.
There are some cars that do exceed their limits.
Resident: You know we don't have the sidewalks. and we don't have the bike path's
and we don't have those other things so, and being that the park is across the
highway, what mother is going to send their children. Right across TH 7, watch
26 r
City Council Meeting - AuS t 13, 1990
out for the semi's and you can go play not knowing whether they're going to come
back or not .
Councilwoman Dimler: Plus if you had more kids, you're not going to leave the
,S other ones at the beach unattended so you have to take them all. It's terrible.
I've been through it.
Resident: It is very much so.
Councilman Johnson: Basically what we're saying is two fold. One is, we don't
believe it deserves a variance to the zoning ordinance in this case. Two, we
believe we need to know under what conditions we should have them. What
distances from the lake. Distance from lot lines. We need m ore study. Third,
you're not going to put it up this year anyway so there's thetime involved and I
think that we want to look at it this year over the winter months and get
something going so that next spring this can be addressed. It may turn out that
we want to say that any beachlot with more than blank families on it has to have
one of these in there.
Nancy Christensen: So you'll be able to give us an answer by perhaps next
' spring?
Councilman Johnson: That's what we'll be shooting for yes.
Mayor Chmiel: That 's what I'd try to do, yes.
Nancy Christensen: Okay, that's fair.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Nancy Christensen: How will we know?
' Councilwoman Oimler: We'll put it on the agenda.
Mayor Chmiel: We'll put it on the agenda again to discuss it and if you'd leave
your name and address with Paul and Paul will make sure that you have that.
Councilman Johnson: I believe we've basically given direction to staff. We
don't really need to vote on that .
Mayor Chmiel: I don't think we need any motion on this.
Don Ashworth: No, because the Board had acted on it. •
WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR ALTERING/REMOVING VEGETATION IN A CLASS B WETLAND
LOCATED IN CURRY FARMS SUBDIVISION, JOYCELYN HUGHES.
Jo Ann Olsen: You have the report with all the history and this has been
presented to you before. We did send it to the Planning Commission who felt to
be consistent with past action and with what the ordinance states, they
recommended denial. They did not feel that what was being proposed was an
' improvement to the wetland. They did not agree that it should be permitted.
They sort of left it with direction to the applicant to further work with ONR,
27
City Council Meeting - Aug.. 4 13, 1990 ,
Fish and Wildlife and whoever to see if there were a way to remove some of the '
vegetation in a manner that would be seen as an improvement to the wetland. In
speaking with the applicant, they still wanted to pursue it through the Council
to get full action to see exactly what the Council directs them to do. I'll
just throw out what we did. We came up with a survey for the wetland showing
the perimeter and the square footage. The applicants are proposing to clear
away the vegetation on the easterly side opposite of where the city parkland is.
Rather than get into the rest . . . ,
Mayor Chmiel: And the direction on that Jo Ann, what direction from city park?
Would it be south of that? ,
Jo Ann Olsen: No, they're directly east across the wetland from the city park.
Mayor Chmiel: Well the one south is Class A. Alright . '
Jo Ann Olsen: This is an old plan that kind of shows the parkland. Another
issue was that there was discussion whether or not the applicants should be
required to pay the $25.00 application fee. There are two applicants with this
and one of them has paid and Joycelyn hasn't because she was given direction
that that would not be required. I explained that that Would be really a
Council action also whether or not to see. . . So you can also act on that
tonight .
Councilman Johnson: $25.00? The $25.00 was paid? '
Jo Ann Olsen: Yeah. $25.00 has been paid from the 8earrood's. . .
Councilman Johnson: Is it one application or two applications? '
Jo Ann Olsen: Two separate applications. There are two separate lots involved.
Councilman Workman: Are you through?
Councilwoman Dimler: I do have one question Tom. Did you want to go ahead and
comment . I have one question. I missed the reason why they wanted to cut the
vegetation. Did you say anything about that?
Jo Ann Olsen: The applicant's reason? '
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe if we have the applicant come up and please state your name
and your address.
Lynn Hughes: My name's Lynn Hughes. My wife's the one that submitted the ,
request . What we wanted to do is we wanted to alter the property, or our
property right behind us that's classified as a wetland. When we originally
purchased the property 2 years ago, it was shown that it was a drainage
easement. There were no cattails. No build up of any kind of vegetation. We
just want to go down there and clean it up. We don't want to alter it. We want
to bring in some beauty to it with wildflowers. We'd like to get some ducks in
there. We'd like to get all kinds of wildlife so that's what we're trying to
28 I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 8
Wildermuth: Probably replacing the architectural features as landscaping
features .
Batzli : Second .
Wildermuth moved, Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of Site Plan #88-3 and Conditional Use Permit #88-2 for McGlynn
' Bakeries for expansion to the production plant area and refrigeration
equipment room as shown on the site plan dated October 16, 1990 with the
following conditions:
1 . The applicant provide staff with a plan indicating how the landscaping
features of the office will be extended to the production plant
addition .
2 . The applicant shall provide additional Colorado Green Spruce along the
south entrance leading into the southerly parking lot .
' 3 . Comply with conditions of approval of staff 's administrative approval
of the parking lot expansion ( Attachment ) .
' 4 . The applicant shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the
Watershed District permit .
S . Working hours shall be between 7 :00 a .m . and 6: 00 p .m . Monday through
Saturday with no work allowed on Sundays and holidays .
6 . To guarantee compliance with the conditions of approval , the applicant
' shall furnish the City with a letter of credit from a bank or a cash
escrow in the amount of $6 ,000 .00 . The security will be released by
the City upon satisfaction that the conditions contained herein have
' been complied with .
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-263 (2). RECREATIONAL
' BEACHLOTS TO ALLOW PORTABLE CHEMICAL TOILETS ON RECREATIONAL BEACHLOTS.
Public Present:
' ___._..._Name Address
' Gene & Nancy Christensen 6561 Kirkwood Circle
President , Minnewashta Creek
Homeowners Association
' Sharmin Al-Jaff presented the staff report . Chairman Conrad called the
public hearing to order .
Nancy Christensen: I 'm Nancy Christensen and I live at 6561 Kirkwood
Circle and I 'm the President of the Minnewashta Creek Homeowners
Association and we earlier requested this variance and whatever else we
asked for . I 've been working on this thing for a long time and I guess
AA4,
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 9 ,
what I 'm just saying is I 'm extremely pleased with Sharmin 's help on this II
situation and I thank you for her recommendation . Thank you .
Conrad: Thank you . Any other comments? Is there a motion to close the
public hearing?
Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted
in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Conrad: Steve , I know you 're opinionated . I 'll start at your end .
Emmings : We get into a different kind of odors on this one . I think I 'm II
kind of in favor of at least trying this . We 've got a letter here from the
Department of Natural Resources I know and they seem to be a little leary
of doing it but recognizing that it 's something that maybe is coming and I I
guess my approach would be a little different than is presented in the
staff report . One thing is I know that we have several of these in the
city at the present time . We have beachlots where they have set them up . II
In fact you had one last year . Well , I say one on there .
Nancy Christensen : For a while . Couple weeks .
Emmings : Yeah , and I think they have one at Greenwood Shores didn 't they ,
or did I see that in the staff report? And I know there 's another one on
Lake Minnewashta . The Minnewashta Heights folks have one down there and II
that was there all this past summer . And I don 't know if we got complaints
about it . Have we ever had any complaints about these?
Olsen : I haven 't heard any . ,
Emmings : Which to me maybe suggests that it 's possible to find a way to do,
this but I guess I would not , at least initially , I think we ought to be
very restrictive until we get a little more experience with it . I don 't
think it ought to be a permitted use . I think it should be a conditional
use and that we should look at each and every one of them and that also
that allows , they have to give notice to neighbors so neighbors can come in
and give their opinions about them . I don 't think it should be a permitted
use . ,
Al-Jaff : We are recommending that it be a conditional use .
Emmings : Well that 's not what it says here . It says . '
Krauss: Beachlots though are conditional use and this is an amendment to
the beachiot ordinance .
Emmings: Oh , okay .
Krauss : So somebody that comes in , if you have an existing beachiot and
want to do this , you would have to have a modification . . .to the beachiot .
Emmings: Alright , then let me ask you this then. If it 's a grandfathered II
beachlot and they want to take advantage of something that 's allowed in the
ordinance , do they have to then meet all of the conditions of the?
1
I
Planning Commission Meeting
' November 7 , 1990 - Page 10
Krause : Not necessarily . We talked about this this afternoon . I can only
' tell you what we 've thought about this . The grandfathered use does not
have a CUP okay? Having a toilet added represents what I view as an
intensification of a non-conformity . The way to deal with that is to make
' the offer of a CUP available . If it 's a CUP , they can legitimitize the
beachlot . Change the status of it recognizing that you may in fact want to
apply . I mean when you 're intensifying something , when you 're legitimizing
1 something , I view it as something of a two way street . They 're coming in
to ask for a toilet but you may have aspects of that beachlot that are non-
conforming that you would like to see made conforming or at least made an
improvement to as a condition of getting the CUP . I think that under the
CUP you would have the leverage to do that .
Emmings : Okay . Because you know that , I think that Minnewashta Heights
beachlot is only 25 feet wide so there 's a whole bunch of things they
obviously couldn 't comply with in our ordinance but on the other hand I
think that 's a good comment . Well , then there 's no doubt that if it 's a
conditional use , that 's important to me that we look at each and every one
of these . Another thing is that I don 't know why .
Conrad: I don 't understand that though . The conditional use . Therefore ,
' because you apply for a beachlot it is assumed that you can have , it 's not ,
like you 're looking at it . As long as it meets the rules that have been
described here , basically it 's there . So in other words , if you grant the
beachlot status and you meet the 2 or 3 rules that we 've got , it 's there
and that 's .
Emminge,: Well wait . We don 't have enough rules and I 'm getting to what I
' think the rules ought to be . One thing is , here you 're putting basically a
structure within 50 feet of the shore and I think the shoreline , I thought
the Shoreland Ordinance , I didn 't look it up but I thought the Shoreland
' Ordinance says there can 't be anything within 75 feet so I don 't know why
that number wouldn 't be 75 . I 'd get them back away from the water .
Krauss : Yeah , I guess I couldn't argue that . I mean certainly the
structure setback is 75 feet . Is this a substantial structure? We could
come up with standards that would theoretically allow the placement of
chemical toilets but realistically not and I 'm not sure whether 50 feet
' versus 75 feet is honerous enough to do that but at the very least we felt
that the 50 feet was sufficient to guarantee the physical separation for
the anchoring in the case of spillage and it was the recommendation of the
DNR , if I recall . It was more of an environmental constraint . If you
wanted to go with the 75 , I don 't think we 'd oppose it . I 'd just ask you
to make , I don 't know the situation with all the beachlots . I mean they 're
' varied and they 're .
Conrad: But is there anything allowed within 75 feet of the lake? . There
is no structure to my knowledge in Chanhassen .
Emmings : Well canoe rack maybe . Something like that .
Wildermuth : And a dock .
Emmings: That would be but those are real different to me but anyway .
Another thing is I don 't know why this isn 't limited as to time . I take it
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 11 1
that they 're going to lease these units from somebody who then is going to
maintain them and I don 't know why we wouldn 't limit this to say June 15th I
to August , end of August because that 's the only time people .are using the
property in any concentration that I 'm aware of . I think , then you talk
about a permanent structure being built to house the toilet but I 'm not
sure what that means . In ( d ) . To house this unit that they rent to house II
this Satellite type unit?
Krauss : I think we were trying to cover all the bases . I mean portable I
toilets seem to come in two different types . I mean you either get the
Satellite type that 's molded in the factory and they plop it on the site or
you get something that 's , you know a chemical toilet that can be installed ,
in a boat or recreational vehicle or something else . Using the later , we 'd
like to have a structure that looks like it fits .
Emmings : Well there for sure we want that 75 feet back I would think . I II
would . And I would think that that structure , we 'd want to have separate
approval on that too . Or that it would be approved as part of this . Okay .,
I guess I think there are beachlots that exist in the city where we
wouldn 't want to see one of these because they 're so small that there 's no
way to keep it from impinging on the neighbors and I don 't think , this is a -
convenience item and to me it takes a lower priority than the pleasure of
the neighboring residential owners . So I guess what I 'd put down here ,
I wrote a little intent section and I also added some . And the intent I
think is that , I think it should go something like this . I don 't know . II This is right off the top of my head but it is the intent of the City of
Chanhassen to allow chemical toilets at beachlots so long as the
maintenance and use of these toilets have no undesireable impact on the
environment , residential neighbors or lake users . On Lake Minnewashta
where I live , we 've got I don 't know how many beachlots but there 's got to
be I don 't know . Do you know how many? 4 or 5 , 6? And I don 't want to
drive around the lake and see a Satellite from the lake looking into it , 11 see a Satellite on every one of those . It could be quite a few and Lotus
has quite a number don 't they?
Conrad : A couple . ,
Emmings : It 's more than that from what I read in here . I don 't know but
it sounded like . It is being allowed primarily for the convenience and
safety of children who often cross busy streets to return home to use
toilets . It is recognized that maintenance and use of chemical toilets on
some small beachlots may be inappropriate because they cannot be adequate
screened from residential neighbors or lake users . Then I had another
condition which was the conditional use permit may be revoked if there are
complaints from residential neighbors . If there 's any violation of the II intent of the ordinance or if there 's any evidence of failure to maintain
the toilet to eliminate odors and pollution . So I guess overall my. point
is that I think there 's a good reason to'have them for a short period of
time during the year and that if we could be very restrictive about it , at I
least initially , I could get behind it .
Ahrens: What would they do? Come in and tow them away? '
Emmings: Well see , you lease these things . Now you leased the one you had
out there this summer didn 't you?
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 12
Nancy Christensen : Well someone in our Association had . . .
Emmings : Okay , so you lease them and then you have a pumping agreement
where they service them and all of that and I guess I see this as a
situation where that would be the way to do it . Have it there for 2 1/2
months because I can tell you that from watching , the way people use the
lake , there 's very little use of the lake even in August . The end of June
and July it 's used very heavily and then it tapers down real fast . Even at
the end of July . In my experience . But if it was there from June 15th
until when people returned to school the end of August .
' Batzli : The season 's kind of Memorial Day to Labor Day .
Emmings : But I tell you the heavy .
Batzli : Well I know the heavy use is .
Emmings : The heavy use is right around the 4th of July and after that it
really starts falling off . At least on Lake Minnewashta . From my
observation . But anyway , that 's what I would .
' Conrad: Okay . Good comments . Brian?
Batzli : Well he stole all my thunder so I 'm just going to ask kind of a
' rhetorical question of the staff and that 's why , if every one of the
communities that we called said don 't get into it . Don 't do it . Don 't do
it . Why are we doing it?
'
Krauss : Who was saying don 't? Oh , the cities . Well to be honest , I mean
this is , we are not incredibly excited about the specter of dealing with
another issue on a lake . You know it 's one of those things that you 'd
' prefer that it go away and never happen but it is happening . We 've been
asked to deal with it in the most effective way we know how . As to why
other communities have not dealt with it , I don't know . Sometimes the
situation is different . Sometimes you don 't have the recreational beachlot
' that the common use on some of the lakes . I don 't know why other
communities haven 't confronted it . When I get calls from other planners
too , I mean your reaction is to air on the conservative side . If you don 't
' know the answer , then don 't do it if you don 't have to . Well , we 've been
asked to do it and so we 've done what we can to make sure that it 's done as
safely and as sensitively as possible . If the ordinance goes ahead like
' this , it 's something that we could administer and we could live with .
Batzli : Would it be helpful at all to require that if in fact most of
these things are leased , and I assume that most of them would be , would it
be appropriate to have a copy of the contract on file with the city or
something? To make sure that they 're .
Krauss : Frankly , I would prefer not . I mean I 'd prefer to deal with the
owners of the beachlot and not who they contract with . In my view the
owner 's liable for the maintenance . The owner 's liable for the conditions
' of approval . However , they obtain compliance with those conditions is
really their business . It presents a little bit of another layer of
administration for us and I 'm not sure that it 's necessary .
1
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 13
Batzli : Who then is responsible if there is some sort of , if they tip it II
over into the lake? You 're going to try to hold the beachlot owners
responsible for that?
Wildermuth : The Association . '
Batzli : The Association?
Conrad: And what 's the penalty?
Krauss: Well I don 't know . That 's the concern . I mean I raised the
initial concern when I was with the City of Minnetonka you know we had one II
of these things , or several of these things tipped into a bay . Now it was
from a city park but they were not anchored and were vandalized and tipped
into Libb 's Lake . Libb 's Lake does not flush very readily from Minnetonka .'
It 's the eastern most arm of the lake . As a consequence , for the rest of
the season , for a month and a half , that lake was unswimmable because
th : . . .count was too high . I don 't know whether any of our lakes in
Chanhassen exhibit the same characteristics . They don 't have that kind of II
a ba, structure certainly with a narrow little inlet that Libb 's Lake has .
We are taking the active approach here in requiring that these things be '
anchored so hopefully rather than dealing with the aftermath of a problem ,
we can try to avoid the problem in the first place . And we 've also got
the physical separation from the lake which if it 's 75 feet , particularly
more than 55 feet , you know these things don 't have a tremendous amount of
capa ity and by the time it gets to the lake , hopefully a lot of that will
be intercepted by grass or sand or whatever .
Batzli : I think these things are a favorite target of college , high
school , whatever aged kids . They seem to be fun to tip over . I know that
they 're tipped over frequently at Crescent Beach in Shorewood/Tonka Bay .
Whatever that park is actually in . I was familiar with the one in Libb 's
Lake . It seems to me that you know in those instances you 're talking about
a city owned park and you should have more control over it and yet they
don 't seem to have any control over it and for us to require the beachlot II
owners to control it , I don 't know if that 's going to be effective or not .
That 's why I 'd almost like to see them , this may be out of the realm of
possibilities but post a bond or something . I like Steve 's additions if well
go ahead with this .
Wildermuth: Believe it or not I laid awake last night thinking about this .'
Conrad: With all the political stuff going on , you were thinking about
portable toilets .
Wildermuth: About whether or not this is a good thing or we should be
looking at something like this and I guess I came to the same conclusion
that Steve did . That it 's probably worth while looking at and it 's II probably something that maybe who 's time has come for these beachlots . I
would favor a time limit and I would like to see the whole concept limited
to a portable structure only . Nothing permanent so that would probably
mean taking ( d ) out of there . Reference to a permanent structure .
Especially if we 're still going to look at 50 feet because that kind of
violates everything else that we 've got .
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 14
Batzli : Some of them do have like a fence like stockade type approach with
' a little entrance and the back swings open so they can take it out . Now
that 's the kind of screening almost that you may or may not appreciate over
the proposed screening but .
Wildermuth: I think if I were a neighbor I 'd want to see vegetation type
screening as opposed to some kind of a fence . I think that 's pretty well
addressed in ( c ) . Fully screened by coniferous vegetation . I don 't know
what the time limitation on it should be . Staff can decide that . If it 's
Labor Day to Memorial Day or whatever . Or Memorial Day to Labor Day ,
whatever it is . But I think there should be some kind of time limit on it
and I would like to see it restricted only to portable structures . And
would this be reviewed on a case by case basis as it 's currently proposed?
This ordinance? So you 'd have a chance to look at all these grandfathered
lots?
Krauss : Yes . Each one would have to come before you and make their case
at a public hearing .
Conrad: But you 'd apply the rules that you lay down now .
' Wildermuth : Right . Apply these rules . The beachlot association that
I belong to , I think if they came in for one we 'd probably deny it because
it 's an odd configuration and it just , I don 't know how you could do
something like that and satisfy the neighbors . That 's all .
Ahrenr : I don 't have a real strong feelings about this but you know
I gu'E. if there 's a need for this we should be looking at it . I 've heard
' a lot of discussion tonight about the appearance of them and some beaches
are too small and some beaches are big enough to handle these and it seems
like we 're getting into such subjective criteria in determining where they
' should Le and where they shouldn 't be and if a neighbor complains and they
should be taken out . I have a lot of problems with that . I think that if
we have an ordinance that says that they 're allowable , then I 'm sure
there 's children on all the beachlots and I 'm sure there 's a need if
that 's . Paul said there 's a need because there 's children who have to use
the portable toilets when they 're out there and then Steve says he doesn 't
want to see them on every beachlot as he 's riding around on the lake
because of the appearance of that . I mean how are we going to determine?
Every other lot or you know , 2 out of 4 . Only half the beachlots get them
because more than that would be aesthetically ugly or how are we going to
' determine that? It seems to me that if we 're going to allow these things
on beachlots , we 're going to just have to allow them . Either that or we
say only on beachlots of a certain size .
' Wildermuth : Well , I think that some of the conditions that are put in
there are going to preclude that because .if the beachlot that we have on
Lotus Lake were to come in and ask for one , the thing would end up having
' to be located in the middle of the tennis court and it just doesn 't work .
Ahrens : because of the setbacks?
' Wildermuth: Yeah . Because of the setback requirements . The fact that
they have to be fully screened I think is some kind of assurance that .
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 15
Batzli : There has to be at least one opening .
Ahrens : Why can 't they just plant things around it?
Wildermuth : Well they can . I
Ahrens: So you 're saying the setback requirements will limit the number .
Wildermuth : The visual impact .
Ahrens: I think that we should be concerned with these so close to the
lake but on the other hand if people need them they need them and I think
we should provide them . I imagine we haven 't had a lot of problems with
them on with Greenwood Shores because nobody can get to that beachlot
anyway . It 's probably never even used except for 2 or 3 people a year .
Who walk 4 miles down from CR 17 to get to it .
Wildermuth: Who knows it 's there?
Ahrens : Yeah , right . But you know I do have a problem with it . 'I guess
Steve , maybe you could explain what you mean if there are complaints .
I mean we get a lot of complaints from a lot of people and some of them
have some merit and a lot of them don 't . If an association is approved for
putting one of these things in and a neighbor maybe , I don 't know do they
have to be right next door to the beachlot or are they across the lake from
the beachlot . If they say I don 't like the way that looks , then do' we pull
it?
Emming:- : I would presume that if a person that , well first of all . You
would and should come in before we permit it because they 're going to have
to , to get a conditional use permit they 're going to have to give notice to
the neighbors that they 're planning to put one of these things in and
everybody pretty much knows what they look like so you expect to see those
neighbors in here complaining then . And frankly , I 'd have a hard time
unless the association , if you have a neighbor who says I don 't want to
look out . I don 't mind looking out my window at people playing on a beach
but I do mind looking out my window and seeing a blue hut there that people
are going in and out of constantly . I don 't want to do that . I 'd have a
hard time , unless the association could tell me how they were going to
screen it in a way so that that would be the satisfaction of that
homeowner , I would say they don 't get it .
Ahrens : What if they come in after the fact?
Emmings: After what fact?
Ahrens : After it 's already granted .
Emmings: Who? Who comes in? ,
Ahrens : Well some neighbor who lives there .
Emmings: Coming in and saying what?
Ahrens : They don 't like it . They don 't like to look at it .
Planning Commission Meeting
Novemher 7 , 1990 - Page 16
Krauss : If I could . Anybody can make a complaint against things at any
' time and the most we can do is follow up on that . And if it 's a complaint
that we can 't resolve at a staff level that we think is verifiable , we ' ll
bring the item back before you and the City Council to re-evaluate if
they 're violated the conditions of the approval . And if they have , you can
yank their permit .
Ahrens : I like the intent statement that Steve added onto this but I think
that maybe the rest of the wording may be a little too restrictive .
Emmings : I guess my notion is just that if we 're going to venture into
this , which I 'm not sure we should , but if we 're going to venture into
this , I think we should be real restrictive to start with and if they turn
out to be no problem , maybe we want to make it easier for people . But it 's
going to be harder to go back and get more restrictive . Well , it might not
be . I shouldn 't say that . I was thinking it would be harder to get more
restrictive later . It 's harder to take something away once somebody has
it . But if there 's a demonstrated problem , I 'm sure we could find a way to
do that .
Ahrens : That 's all I have .
' Conrad: Thanks Joan .
Wildermuth : Doesn 't Steve want to make this motion?
Conrad: Well , I have a real tough time with this one . I think a case
could be made for allowing them on certain properties but I don 't see the
restrictiveness yet which I think everybody has said . There are just so
many negatives that can occur . It 's just one of these things saying why
are we doing this in the first place . As many outlots as we have or
' beachlots , we really haven 't been , that have been in existence for 10-15
years , I really haven 't heard all that much demand for this . The notes
that we have from one resident who has . You really have to be within 350
feet of the beachlot to be a member of that beachlot and I guess I 'm not .
Emmings : 1 ,000 isn 't it?
Conrad: Ah , it is 1 ,000 . But even so , that still doesn 't seem to be a big
inconvenience to me . Yet on the other hand , I think I could be persuaded if
we had the right restrictions and we don 't right now . On the sideyard
setback , if somebody put a chemical toilet within 20 feet of my property
line I 'd go wild . I just , I 'd go bezerk you know . That is so far away
from what we 're intending . A beachlot of a priviledge . It 's not a right .
It is a priviledge , not a right . It allows more people access which is a
priviledge on that lake and whatever that means to different people . It
really is an important difference yet here you can 't impinge on the.
neighbors with the volume of people . I an consider designing an ordinance
that said that if beachlot owners , if members of the association are of
that beachlot were on either side of the beachlot , then I 'm passified a
little bit because they 're part of the process . They 're part of the
decision making process or the process that the owner who subdivided this
land in the beginning had to deal with when he subdivides it but if that
beachlot is abutting on individual residents that 's not part of that
particular recreational beachlot . I think we don 't have the controls right
I
11
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 17
now . Sc. what I 'm saying , without belaboring the issue , 50 feet is not .
Well , I can 't build a little leanto within 75 feet of a lake and therefore "
the F,0 foot in our current recommendation has to go to 75 . It just has to .
25 foot from the sideyard doesn 't make any sense to me at all . That 's
just , I just don 't want that . There 's got to be more protecting a
neighbor . I think the length of time that Steve said is important . I
think there should be a penalty or some recourse worked into the ordinance .
I think the portable toilet has to be colored to be , you know I 've seen a
lot of ugly ones that aren 't necessarily the prettiest things in the world .,
I 'm not sure what firmly means . Does that mean it 's on a slab? I guess my
bottom line is I don 't see anything I can vote favorably for tonight -so if
somebody wants to make a motion and wants my vote , the best they can do is "
to table it otherwise I 'll vote no .
Emmings : What would you do , can you tell us what restrictions you 'd want
so ria> be we could put something together here or do you want to work on it .
Conrad : I think I said the things that I felt . I think if surrounded , if
that beachlot was surrounded by other members or properties , then I could
vote for that
Ernmings: The trouble with that though Ladd is in the subdivisions where
you ha beachlots as part of your subdivision , the neighbors on each side Ir
aren 't part of the beachlot . They have their own beach . They have their
own 1 . Fezhore so that 's , so right away that doesn 't exist . But the real
problem here is that on most of the older beachlots , see now we 've got to
have 200 feet on lakeshore . You 've got quite a bit of space to work with .
3 ,000 square feet but on the old ones they 're all , some are 25 feet wide . I�
think the one on Lake Minnewashta is 25 . How wide is yours? How much
lakeshore have you got?
Gene Christensen : It 's 95 I think . '
•
Emmings : Yeah , and there on that one you 've got on one side of you there 's
a home .
Gene Christensen: Both sides .
Emmings : Both sides? They are private homes that have no , they 're
lakeshore property or nothing to do whatever with that subdivision or the
use of this .
Conrad: See in that case I would have to , the only way I would grant '
something in that case Steve would be if the neighbor agreed . That 's the
only way I would do it . One , I 've got to be satisfied that environmentally!'
we 've taken care of the situation . There is a reason the other communities
haven 't allowed these and I don 't think we should be real naive . It 's a
problem . Tipping over and maintenance and smell and you know , the smells
of chemical toilets are not great . We 're talking about McGlynn 's , I don 't II
want to be next to that smell . Now there are ways to solve that problem .
It 's not that it 's absolute but it 's a real pain . Administratively we 're
creating a pain for the city . If we have to monitor . If we have to deal II
with this . I can visualize a need but again , I would have to look at it on
a case by case basis . I would have to inform the neighbors and if they
felt it was offensive , I would have to decline . I would have to reject the!'
•
11
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 18
use . Co if we work the language in that way , then the beachlot has a
chance as long as I 've solved the environmental things and some of the
setback things . Then I would feel good about it .
' Ahrens : I don 't think we can solve the environmental problems . I mean
it 's there and it may be tipped over and it may cause problems .
Conrad: Well no , if it 's firmly and I guess I just challenge what firmly .
In this draft it says firmly and that 's what I say . Is that a concrete
slab where it 's bolted down and then it 's going to stay . If it 's screened ,
what does screened mean? One tree .
Ahrens : Well I don 't think so .
Conrad : But see that 's what , if we 're going to put the ordinance in .
Ahrens : It says fully screened .
Conrad: Okay , so one tree on each side? And what kind of tree? I 'm
getting pick/ but again , you 've got to have that down . If you want to have
a conditional use permit , you 've got to know what you 're talking about . Now
it 's not that we 're going to get different dimensions of the portable . We
know what it is . We know that it 's this big by this big so what are we
talking about ' I guess I 'd prefer to be as definite as possible if we want
to allow it . I 'm not real convinced I want to tamper with it but if the
balance of you feel it 's worth responding to the City Council 's need , then
I think we should put some specifics in here to deal with it . Yes sir .
G7r : Christensen : I think I feel the same way as you do as far as looks .
I mean obviously if I lived there I wouldn 't like it either but you 're
talking about putting trees . You 're just talking 1 tree or 2 trees . Being
' I 'm part of the association , I want to hide it just as much as you do . We
w,:nt to make it look nice .
Conrad: And that 's where I want to leave the problem because you 'll take
care of it because you live there and that 's really what I want to make
sure of . I want to keep out of this mess and let the association take care
of it but what happens in those situations is the immediate neighbors and
that 's what I 'm most concerned with . How do we handle , how do we make it?
You can work out things within your association but how do we take care of
the immediate neighbor and that 's the issue that I have to address myself .
Emmings : In response to that Ladd . Now the one that you had on your lot ,
because I drive by there all the time , you couldn't , you essentially
couldn 't see it from the lake unless you looked for it . They had it way
back towards the road . It didn 't look great from the roadside but it
didn 't look bad either . I don 't think it was really objectionable . Then
we 've got this one on Lake Minnewashta Heights . This narrow 25 , I think
it 's only 25 feet wide . They had one down there all summer . I never saw
it from the lake except a couple times when I looked for it and then I saw
it and it 's just sitting out there . They have residential neighbors on
' both sides and I don 't think either one of them could see it due to the
topography . So there maybe it 's perfectly appropriate and there 's no way
they met any setbacks like this because it 's 25 feet wide . They couldn 't
meet any setbacks . So these are going to have to be reviewed on a case by
' s
. 1
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 19
II
case basis and it may be that somebody like Minnewashta Heights could get
the neighbors to agree to have .it by simply going to them and saying we 've
had it here for 3 years . It hasn 't been a problem for you . Would you sig
something that would allow us to continue to have it? So I don 't know . I
think it needs to be rewritten .
II
Conrad : I agree with what you 're saying Steve . I agree with that . I
think there 's so many different situations with these beachlots . It 's hard
to develop an ordinance that meets them all . Sometimes they 're screened .
Sometimes the neighbors are a distance away and won 't be a bother . You
know Lotus Lake Estates is a good example . They have 3 ,000 feet of
lakeshore . They can put it there and nobody 's going to know . You know and,
there 's .
Wildermuth: Lotus Lake Estates? Is that the one up on the hill there? I
Conrad : Yeah . See they 've got 3 ,000 feet . In that case , there 's no
problem with neighbors but then again , we have a lady who 's talking about , ai
who 's writing us and saying hey , I don 't want that going next to me and
that 's real valid because again , you look at the problems of smell and
sight and that 's , I don 't think that 's the intent of what we want a
beachlot to be . 1
Emmings : I 'd move that we table this and try , I think it 's worth persuing
and I think we ought to work some more on drafting it a little bit . I 'd II
likc to take a shot at it . At drafting something .
Krauss : One note of caution though . I always preface this by saying I 'm
not an attorney , especially when I 'm confronted by 3 of them . We can 't
II
write an ordinance that says if you do x through z you 're entitled to
something unless somebody objects .
Emmings : Well , but we could require them to secure the consent or not have
it . That could be a requirement . If what you 're saying is right , then we
could require consent .
II
Batzli : I guess I would be more in favor that it would be revocable by the
city if either safety or environmental concerns over the toilet arose .
I don 't know that I want to preface their right to continue using the toile
on a neighbor .
Emmings: Once it 's granted . 1
Ahrens: I agree because in that situation where , like you said there was a
beachlot that 's only 25 feet wide or something and nobody can see it on
either side but what if they complain anyway?
II
Krauss: Right . With conditional uses you 're talking about a class of uses
that are considered extraordinary and potentially obnoxious but if they
meet criteria that you 've established , then you 're committing yourselves toll
say okay . I mean it met the criteria , it 's fine with us . One of the
things you also have to recognize though is you 're not , when you 're
reviewing CUP 's you 're not limited to those 4 or 5 criteria that we came up,
with or Steve , what you ' ll come up with . There 's the 8 or 10 , whatever it
is , Mom and Apple Pie CUP conditions that preface that section and they
II
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 20
giv7. you a great deal of latitude .
Conrad: But it 's also the intent statement . You know what we 've got to do
is be able to do a good job of helping staff or helping neighbors
1 understand what the point is . That 's why Steve 's introduction of what
we 're trying to accomplish is very important because what I don 't want to
do is lead somebody down the pike and say hey , you might be able to get
this . Or it is yours for sure . They have to know the intent for what
we 're trying to do and when you 're controlling smells and stuff like this ,
it 's a bigger deal . I think you all have to put yourself in the position
of being next to one and say okay , how would I want to be guarded . How
should the City guard me and I think there 's ways to do it . I 'm not sure
what the words are . There 's a motion to table . Is there a second?
' Batzli : Second .
Emmings moved, Batzli seconded to table action on Zoning Ordinance
Amendment to amend Section 20-263(2 ), Recreational Beachlots to allow
portable chemical toilets on recreational beachiots for further study . All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously .
Conrad: We appreciate you coming in . I said a lot of negative things but
tryin:, to make sure we get the right thing there . It 's not just yours it
applies to everybody .
' Emmings: We 've got time to work on it before next spring too .
Conrad' : Yeah , but we appreciate you coming in and talking to us and
listening to what we have to say and maybe we can call upon you to help us
as we draft something .
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTIONS 20-695 , 20-715, 20-735 ,
20-755, 20-774 , 20-795 AND 20-815 CONCERNING ALL COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL
DISTRICTS TO INCREASE FLEXIBILITY IN ESTABLISHING PARKING SETBACKS BY
ADOPTING A PERFORMANCE ORIENTED APPROACH TO STANDARDS AND AN AMENDMENT TO
ESTABLISH A REQUIREMENT FOR BUFFER YARDS IN THE IOP DISTRICT.
Paul Krauss presented the staff report on this item . Chairman Conrad
called the public hearing to order .
Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted
in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Ahrens : The buffer yards you talked about in relationship to the
comprehensive plan , is this what , the 50 ,foot buffer yard . Is that what we
put in?
rKrauss : 50 foot along rights-of-ways 100 foot from internal property
lines .
' Ahrens: I don 't have anything .
Wildermuth : It looks fine to me .
Recycled paper “4
•11F1 Services
Graup"
BROWNING-FERRIS INDUSTRIES
February 2E, 1991
STAKE:A
PROCEDURE TO E tOW POR"ABLE RESiROOMS FOR PRI"ATE AND PUBLIC USE
Each BFI unit is meented on skids which extend from the front and back 1
1 to 3". To stake the units to the ground ve use 3' wooden stakes that
are driven into the ground er-d then nailed tc the skid on all four sides
of the unit.
Iti*yen staked into the ground the unit oannct be moved by a storm, small
children or a single adult. I1, would possible to move the unit by
being hit by a vehicle or a croup of adults on each side of the unit,
either of these wee:.d cause damage to the unit.
If the unit is tipped over 3I': has an eddition_al safeguard of the contents I
being spilled out by the use of a sireially designed tank that is slope
designed so th2.t the contents cannot swill out if tipped backward and cannot
spill out fer erd unless the tank is over 1/2 full.
If the content. dc spill out o n the ground, the chemical we use is bio-
deggradab?e, to be envionmen'`.a`_ly safe_
We find the units t kat are t p?ed over rest freouently are units that are
on concrete or bi c:top• Used at landings, docks or parks. These areas
have been able to decrease the van':a isr7 by building wooden shelters around
the restrooms o co.itain the uai t leaving very little room to move or rock
the unit, thus disceuraginc ,vandalism.
Myrna Kragness
Special Events Cooriinator
r
I
1
216 27TH AVI:. NO. • F 4INNEAPOLIS,MINN 55411 (612) 529-3689 1
• par �r�t� i7R i . T 4 1 I a I AE WG'dd 11 : 11 I6 i 8Z 83d
C ICY OF
CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
' (612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO: Planning Commission
FROM: Sharmin Al-Jaff, Planner One
' DATE: March 3, 1991
SUBJ: Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-263 ,
tRecreational Beachlots (Two Portable Chemical Toilets)
On November 7, 1990, the Planning Commission reviewed a proposed
ordinance amendment to Section 20-263, regarding portable chemical
toilets on recreational beachlots. Issues were raised concerning
setbacks from the lake, screening of the structure and firmly
anchoring the structure to the ground to prevent tipping. The
' Plaanning Commission tabled action on the proposed ordinance and
directed staff to conduct further research. Chairman Emmings
proposed that he would undertake drafting of an alternative
ordinance.
Staff contacted BFI 's Portable Restroom Division who is one of the
suppliers of the City's portable toilets which are located in Lake
' Ann Park. We spoke to their Special Events Coordinator, Ms. Myrna
Kraness to inquire about whether there is a way to prevent portable
toilets from tipping. Ms. Kraness indicated that there are stakes
that are 3 feet long which are driven into the ground. The
portable toilets are mounted on skids. The stakes are railed to
the skid on all four sides of the unit. This method is usually
used to firmly anchor the portable toilets. Staff inquired whether
' a portable toilet could still be tipped if somebody tried to. She
stated that it would be possible to move the unit if it was hit by
a vehicle or a group of adults on each side of the unit
' (Attachment 2) .
Chairman Emmings invited staff to review a new draft ordinance for
' recreational beachlots that allow portable chemical toilets. This
amended version will require applicants to appear before the
Planning Commission on an annual basis and permission would bb
granted for the time period from June 15 through September 5 to use
a portable toilet. The consent of all residents using the beachlot
would have to be submitted to the city in written form. The
setback from the ordinance high water mark would have to be 75
feet. This version seems to address the issue in a fashion that
1
A4-4, 3
11
ZOA - Portable Chemical Toilets
February 28, 1991
Page 2
would allow staff to work with each beachlot individually and
assess each application on its own merits.
A public hearing on the ordinance was held in November. Thus, the
Planning Commission is in a position to act upon the ordinance
should you so desire. I
ATTACHMENTS
1. Staff Report and Planning Commission minutes dated November 7,
1990.
2 . Memo from BFI Portable Restroom Division
3 . Proposed Ordinance Amendment
I
1
I
I
11
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page' 8
1 Ceil Strauss : Right .
Emmings : What would be the advantage of that when we have the wetland
ordinance that we have?
' Ceil Strauss: That I 'm not sure of the details of your wetland ordinance .
Krauss : I think that we do a more specific and more appropriate job . . .
Conrad: What do you think about chemical toilets within 100 feet?
Ceil Strauss : I already took a look at that . I saw that you had the
setback there of 75 feet in your proposed ordinance there . It seems like a
reasonable distance . You definitely , I would want to see it meet the
' structure setback . I 'm assuming these are recreational development lakes .
Olsen : . . .accessory structures 10 feet back?
Ceil Strauss: Oh , I wouldn 't want it 10 feet back . Now that 's not a water
oriented accessory structure because you don 't have to have it by the
' water .
Emmings : First of all you don 't have a principle use on those lands so you
can 't have it an accessory structure right? So I don 't think it would fit .
' Ceil Strauss: Well actually , we would probably not consider it , we may not
consider it a permanent structure . It hasn 't come forward to my attention
' in the past so I haven 't guidance on that but there 's a lot of situations
where something 's considered temporary and our rules only consider the
permanent structures . That happens in our protected water regulations too .
We get people that will stick boats on blocks and the neighbors complained
because they think it looks terrible . It 's on the bed of the lake but we
have to consider it a temporary structure . You get into some gray areas
with that kind of thing .
Emmings: Anybody else have any questions at this time? Okay . Well , thank
you very much .
Ceil Strauss: Sure .
Emmings: We 're going to shift the agenda around a little bit because
apparently there are people here on the zoning ordinance amendment
regarding chemical portable toilets on recreational beachlots so we 're
going to take that item next .
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT REGARDING CHEMICAL PORTABLE TOILETS ON
RECREATIONAL BEACHLOTS.
1 Sharmin Al-gaff presented the staff report on this item .
Emmings: By way of a little further introduction from me , I drafted what 's
' here because Sharmin called me up and said I had to right then and then I
had to fax it to her so it could get on the meeting . I put` it off for like
2 months and then I had to do it in 5 minutes so I 've made some changes
myself . I 've got some things that .
r
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 9
Conrad : What are you referring to Steve? ,
Emmings: The last two pages is the draft that we 're going to be looking
at . '
Batzli : It didn 't look like a draft to me . It looked pretty formal and
finalized .
Emmings: Okay . I guess in some ways when I got done with this I thought
gee , it 's so hard to do that I wonder if people are going to think it 's not
worth doing it and maybe that 's okay but the one thing that I added under
( a ) was that , it says setbacks from ordinary high water mark shall be 75
feet . And I think maybe we should add that side and front yard setbacks
should be maximized to aid and achieving a maximum screening . And in the II
reason I didn 't put in side or front yard setbacks there was that I know we
have , I know that on the lake where I live , on Minnewashta , there 's a
beachlot with a portable chemical toilet and I don 't think that beachlot ,
do you know how , is that 25 feet Dick? Do they have 25 feet of shore
there? That 's all isn 't it? So I couldn 't think of anyway , and then I
know there 's another one on the other side of Lake Minnewashta , remember
where they had several hundred feet of shoreline and I couldn 't think of
any way to write side yard setbacks for 25 foot lot . I mean it just
doesn 't make sense so I thought let 's leave them out but the more I think
about. it , I just thought maybe we could say that they should be maximized II
to help achieve those screening . And then I put in another one , I don 't
know where it goes . I put it in as , well it could be a paragraph ( e ) or
wherever you 'd put it and that is that a portable chemical toilet should bell
securely anchored to the ground . That was in the first one and it wasn 't
in this one . I missed that and that ought to be in here and I asked
Sharmin to call them and ask them how they anchor them and apparently they
do have some way to do that . There 's something else I wanted to say here II
and I can 't remember what it was right now . Oh . On the first page of your
staff report Sharmin it says that the amended version will require
applicants to appear before the Planning Commission on an annual basis and II
that wasn't my intent . I put it in here that , under ( c ) that it would
require approval from the City planning department . I thought this would
be an adminstrative approval by the City planning department . That 's why I'
put it that way . I don 't see any reason for them to come through here .
Batzli : How about annual approval though? Did you just want them to do it
once? '
Emmings: You know , I didn 't think about it . If they 're using , I guess to
some extent if they can 't screen it well enough , then they have to get the
neighbor 's consent in writing and that 's only good for one year . So it
probably wouldn 't be a bad idea to make it annual because otherwise the
informatio isn 't going to be fresh on who's responsible for maintaining it
and I think that 's a real important item . So yeah , it probably ought to bell
an annual . You may want to have a permit fee associated with it too to pay
for the processing cost .
Krauss: Can I clarify something Chairman? Now the initial time this is
approved it would be approved as a CUP through the Planning Commission or
not? 1
' Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 10
Emmings: I don 't know . I saw this as something they 'd come to the City
' for a permit for .
Krauss : Well I think from our perspective , we 'd prefer that at least the
' first time through , it came through here with the public hearing process .
It adds formal notification . There 's an opportunity for people to comment .
I would be relunctant to approve those things initially at a staff level .
' Emmings: So then it could be renewed -on an annual basis?
Krauss: Renewals sure because we process complaints and we can go out and
' check compliance for conditions .
Emmings : That 'd be alright then . That 's fine with me if that works
better . And the other thing that was in the staff report that wasn 't , it
' says the consent of all the residents using the beachlot would have to be
submitted to the city in written form and that 's just a little wrong . It 's
neighbors that have to consent . In those cases like a 25 foot wide or
someplace where they can 't screen the thing , that 's where you 'd need
neighbors consent in writing in order to have it at all . I wanted to
convey the idea that if everything is just right , you can have one of these _
' and if everybody doesn 't agree , then you can 't have one . I don 't think
they 're important enough to give to everybody . They seem to me to be
strictly a convenience . I think they 're important when some of the
beachlots , a neighborhood uses them that lives and again I keep , I only
know the specific examples around my lake but there 's one I think maybe
that you folks are associated with where everybody_ lives across Minnewashta
Parkway in an area of homes there and they all come across there and if
' some mom comes down in the middle of the afternoon or dad with their kids ,
and they 've got 2 kids with them and one of them has to go back home , that
means everybody has to go back home to go to the bathroom or whatever and
' it just seems to me to be a real reasonable thing to have for people 's
convenience if you can handle them in some way . Anyhow . Okay . Now we
said we had a public hearing on this but I 'm really wondering if we have
because this draft wasn 't in front of anybody who got notice of a public
hearing . This has never been , is that important?
Krauss: You did have a public hearing on an earlier version of this . Yes ,
it was a different version but I think it 's fair to say that those who were
interested in participating in the discussion had an opportunity and we
notified those same people for tonight . If you 're comfortable with the
ordinance , I would feel comfortable with you passing it along to the City
Council tonight .
Emmings: Are there , did you come on this issue?
Gene Christensen: Yes .
Emmings: Did you get to look at the ordinance the way it 's been drafted?
Gene Christensen: We just got it tonight . We 're looking at it .
' Emmings: Do you want to make any comments on what 's here?
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 11 1
Gene Christensen: I have no objections to anything and I think it sounds II
reasonable to everything you 've got in there . In regards to signatures
from people . I mean on a yearly basis is somebody supposed to go to all
the houses and get signatures saying is it okay for this year? That kind ,
of seems like an issue that should be , I mean I can see it should be done
but what 's the process for volunteering for something like this .
Emmings: With your application , at least the way I see it . With your
application to the city for your permit for the year , if you don 't have any
way to screen it from view , you 'd have to go to the residential neighbors ,
in your case , on each side . I know .there 's plans . You 've got houses on
both sides of yours right?
Gene Christensen : Yes .
Emmings: Now the house that 's on the north side of yours is going to be
town down and that 's going to be subdivided . I know that 's in the works
and there 's going to be two new houses in there . And to the south of you II
there 's a house so you 'd have to go to those two houses and say , if the
city thought you couldn 't screen it well enough , you 'd have to say . One
• thing you could say is it was there last year and were there any problems '
with it and otherwise sign this form giving us your consent so we can show
the city you don 't have any objections . Is there anybody else here who 's
got comments on this? We don 't really have a public hearing going I guess .
Well we ' ll see who 's got comments here . Tim? I
Erhart : Well okay . I absolutely agree that the Planning Commission should
not review this on an annual basis . It should be a staff function . I
guess I 'm more inclined to have it completely a staff function . If it
meets the ordinance , on what basis do we deny it anyway if it comes to the
Planning Commission? I guess going a little bit deeper , I 'm bothered with , "
in the first place I think it 's a great idea to allow chemical toilets on
beachlots but I 'm wondering if we shouldn 't specify a little bit about
which beachlots are allowed and which shouldn 't be . I mean each lot that 's
25 foot wide with residents on either side , I 'm not sure we should be in
the business of allowing chemical toilets at all .
Emmings: Well I guess if the neighbors don 't care , do you?
Ellson: But if the neighbors don 't care .
Erhart : Okay . If the neighbors don 't care . I guess what I 'm getting to II
is , let 's say you 've got a 200 . What 's the current ordinance for beachlot .
Is it 200 feet or 180 or what? 200 feet . You 've got a 200 foot beachlot
and you 've got 40 ,000 square feet . Let 's say you 've got an acre and one II neighbor is , his house is 200 feet away so he 's got 50 foot setbaofc . He 's
150 feet away from the proposed chemical toilet and he 's going to say well ,
I 'm just not going to let you do it . Therefore , I 'm not going to agree .
Now that 's going to prohibit .
Ellson: No , read the part about screening . You only get the neighbors
consent if you can 't screen it from them . I think that 's the way I look all
it .
Erhart: Is that the way it is? Okay .
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 12
Ellson: So if that guy is that far away , you could prove that .
g Y Y � Y P
Erhart: Alright , so we 're not saying that one neighbor can disallow
putting this on there?
' Emmings: No . At least I wasn 't thinking about it that way .
Ellson: I didn't read it that way . Look at number 5 and see if that 's
' where you get it .
Emmings: I don 't know if it says it that way but the notion was , you 've
got to screen it from view because they 're ugly . If you can 't screen it ,
you can't have it . But on the other hand , if the neighbors that have to
look at it all the time don 't object , and you can get them to consent to
it , then why should we object? That 25 foot beachlot on Minnewashta had
one last summer and I only think I noticed it once or two times driving by
on the lake . You can 't see it from the road . I don 't know what the
neighbors thought about it .
Erhart : I guess I was looking at a staff recommendation . Where does it
say in there? Are we looking at staff recommendation or are we looking at
your?
Emmings : No .
' Ellson: Look at the ordinance . Last page .
Erhart : Maybe I was concentrating on the wrong thing . Well okay . The
question arises , let 's say that that 's covered. What happens if you have a
25 foot wide beachlot , as someone had mentioned earlier . The other thing ,
Steve where did you come up with , what was the purpose of the June 15th
thru September 5th?
Emmings: Right out of the air . I thought they might want to have it still
there Labor Day but certainly not beyond Labor Day and I just put in a few
' days for them to get it off of there . June 15th because that 's about when
school gets out and I think they start getting heavy use . Honestly I think
from what I 've observed , if they were there from June 15th to the middle of
August or the end of July would probably be enough . The area of the heavy
use of the lake is really very short .
Erhart: Okay . I guess I would have thought if we were going to do it , I
guess I would have just picked Memorial Day .
Ellson: Memorial Day to Labor Day .
11 Erhart: It 's not a big deal but I guess I remember the kids swimming
before June 15th .
Emmings: Well that 's fine . We can change it . `
Erhart: The other thing . On the chemical toilets that we have at the
' park , do we have a contract with someone to maintain those? Who empties
and maintains those?
I
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 13
Al-.Taff : BFI does . •
Erhart : Why not insist that they have a contract with someone to maintain II
those as part of the conditional use permit?
Emmings: Can you even rent them without a contract to maintain them? ,
Gene Christensen : That 's an automatic thing . If you rent them , they come
and clean it . That 's part of the rent process . The contract . '
Erhart: I guess that was my thought .
Gene Christensen: It 's going to be once or even twice a week , depending on
if it 's used heavy or upon request .
Erhart : We write it as if someone , part of the group that is using it is II
going to be maintain it . That 's the impression I 'm left with what I 've
read but then again it wouldn 't be the first mistake in reading this .
Batzli : So you 'd want as part of the application process a copy of their II
rental agreement .
Erhart : There 's got to be a contract to maintain it . That way there 's no II
doubt left that someone 's going to leave it unmaintained .
Ellson: So number 4 doesn 't tell you that? '
Erhart : Well I 'm trying to , I 'm strengthening it I guess . The plan for
maintaining it could be that well gee , Nick 's son over there , 11 year old II
Nick needs a summer job and he 's going to maintain it .
Batzli : Yeah right . • ,
Emmings: We probably wouldn 't approve that .
Erhart : Okay . In that sense I 'm making it easier for the staff to , okay . II
I guess I 'm also trying to push this over towards the staff approval even
though Paul doesn 't like it . It seems , it 's a real good idea but I think a
small thing is the ordinance is done correctly . That 's all I had . '
Conrad: Paul would this be , what would apply for a sideyard setback as
Steve 's ordinance is drafted right now? There 's not in his ordinance .
Krauss: There 's none and that 's one of the reasons why I preferred that we
didn 't have it at a staff level initially . There's a lot of subjective
judgment that has to be made here . You run a little bit of a risk when you,
do that in an ordinance but you lessen the risk when you have 7 Planning
Commissioners deciding subjectively what 's proper standard is than you do
if I do it . '
Conrad: I just see that as a gap right now and I 'd have to go along with
Paul . One , I don 't like chemical toilets . I think it 's just taking a risk"
and a lot of other communities don't . Don't like them . Don 't want them .
Don 't allow them . Steve , I think you did a nice job of drafting this . I
think it got the intent of what . It puts some flexibility in terms of
1 Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 14
allowing it where there 's very , where we 're not hurting the neighbors .
' We 're not hurting the environment . So from the standpoint of the draft ,
it 's not too bad except for some , it still is open and in that case I would
not want staff to see it . It has to come here unless we put those
guidelines in and I don 't know that we 're smart enough to put the
guidelines in right now because every situation you 've got outlots or
beachlots that are 25 feet wide to thousands of feel wide and that varies
the same . The neighbors vary so I don 't know . In terms of keeping it
flexible , the way it 's written , I think we have to review it . At least the
first time through . On an annual basis , then I think staff can do that but
there 's just no doubt in my mind the way it 's drafted now , we have to see
it . And again , I 'm real nervous about chemical toilets . Real , real
nervous but I can go along with this if we see it and we protect the
neighbors and we protect the environment .
1 Emmings: Anything else? Annette?
Ellson: No . I thought it was well written . I guess I can understand
Paul 's idea of having it come through the Planning Commission but I 'd can 't
see it ongoing but I could go along with that . And I think while they have
some risk associated with them , I think that some of the alternates that
people are taking advantage of now is probably even worst so I think you
ought to have those toilets there .
Batzli : I think the benefits of allowing these in certain instances
outweigh the disadvantage of the site . Pollution , if you will . I think
the risk of not having them , having lived on the lake growing up on Lake
Minnetonka is that people tend to use the lake directly as a toilet and
especially younger kids or people who have a long walk home . And so I
think this is actually an improvement over what you might otherwise see on
the lake . Crass as that might sound . So I 'm for this . I mean I see these
on some of the larger lakes and around public lakes in Minneapolis and
things like that . I actually think they 're a good idea and if it 's
administered properly , and that 's the key . That 's the key with all of our
ordinances is the enforcement aspect and if this isn 't enforced , then we 're
not doing a good job and then you 're risking the pollution of the lake . If
these things fill up , they 're not properly emptied and some kids on a joy
ride with their Jeep tip it over , you may get something to go into the
lake . And so I think we do need the setback to at least minimize that sort
of problem because I 've seen several instances , and especially on
Minnetonka where , at the Narrows , which is a fishing spot , they put them
right next to the Narrows and people push them right in from time to time .
' It also happened at Libb 's Lake and some other places where you have to
close beaches and you end up in a real sorry state if you don 't properly
enforce , administer , tie them to the ground . But like when you contacted
that person , they basically said if you have several adults pushing it or a
Jeep , you 're going to be able to knock the thing over . So it 's something
that might be a problem but like I said , I think the advantages outweigh
those negatives . I liked Steve 's additions . I would add three things . One
is , in paragraph ( c) . I would have it read , use of a portable chemical
toilet shall require initial approval by the Chanhassen Planning Commission
after conducting a public hearing . In each subsequent year , the
application shall be reviewed for approval by the City Planning department .
That way , the applicant has to come in . They have a shot . All the
neighbors have a shot . It 's a public hearing . We can then apply the
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 15
standards that we feel are appropriate and thereafter the administrative
approvals would follow in subsequent years . Paragraph , as it currently
reads , in paragraph ( d )( 2 ) . I would add at the end , after the word
ordinance , or if the portable chemical toilet otherwise presents a
nuisance . And I would also change the word revoked in the first sentence
there in paragraph ( d ) , I would have it read denied or revoked . I would
actually change that whole paragraph to number ( e ) and insert a ( d ) that
says , portable chemical toilets shall be securely anchored to the ground .
I guess Steve already suggested that . Those are my comments .
Farmakes: I live by the park in Greenwood Shores and I first noticed the
need for a toilet facility there when I was walking through the trail one
day and saw somebody going to the bathroom on a log . There are specific
areas where people are channeled for recreation . Either ice fishing on thell
lake or in the summertime swimming , where those facilities aren 't available
and rather than hop in the car and drive into town or drive to a gas
station , when nature calls , they make the decision to do it there . So
there are some areas where these things are needed but I would use
discretion as to where those are . I would hope that the City would be very'
careful as to how many of those are handed out . In particular if
somebody 's going to do it privately on their own , whether or not they 're
going to maintain it . I 'd rather see these as a commercial type structures
that are maintained commercially and as you said , that they have proof of '
maintenance contract and that they 're being emptied properly . About twice
a year the one at our park is tipped over and these are BFI type thing .
They 're made out of plastic and there 's a vent at the top in the summer and"
when they 're tipped over , and it 's on a grade , effluent just comes out .
They 're not in any particular area or sand or gravel area . They 're just on
grass . I think the maintenance truck backs up to it . Lifts up the old one
and puts down the new one . They don 't empty it . I don 't know how else ,
you know if you allow that , even in a park , to get too close to the lake ,
it 's going to go down the natural slope when it falls over . On 3 , on this
section here where it says portable toilets be firmly anchored to the
ground . Is there a definition of what firmly anchored is? The reason I
ask , for these maintenance things they seem to have a thing where they lift
them up and drop them off . Or at least the one by our place . Is there , 11 does that mean a chain to it or that we bolt it to the ground?
Emmings: That 's why I asked Sharmin to call and see what they did about
that and apparently what she found out , at least from BFI , that they put 2 II
foot long spikes that are driven into the ground to hold the thing down .
I 'd never heard of that before .
Farmakes: The one on ours is not adhered to the ground at all . '
Emmings: Maybe you have to ask for it . ,
Ellson: I think you probably would. I 'm sure they get people that request
it but it 's probably easier for their guys not to have it down so in some
of those ballpark areas , they probably don 't even do it .
Farmakes: I think it would be nice if we define what , so that it couldn 't
be tipped over if they were allowed. If that 's how they do it . And the
other question I have on 6 is the facility shall be constructed of
1
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 16
1
materials compatible with the materials used in the neighborhood . Does
' facilities included , does that mean a shelter?
Emmings: I think you 're looking at an old draft . The new draft is the
' last two pages in the packet .
Batzli : We got rid of the materials . Steve got rid of the materials
requirements from that draft you were looking at .
Emmings: I don 't foresee anybody building their all and maybe we should
make that clear . That they come from some commercial vendor and are
maintained by some commercial vendor . That 's what I had in mind .
Ellson: That 's why you 'll be able to deny that when you see the plan .
Farmakes: That would keep them from deteriorating or that they 're at a
particular level of workmanship and performance so you know that they 're
not going to fail .
iEmmings: Somebody said last time we talked about this that they knew
something. about whether they leaked if they 're tipped over . And now what
you 're saying is very different than what I heard before . I don 't know .
Al-Jaff : There 's a letter from BFI that addresses that issue . Right
before the ordinance and it says that if this is tipped over , that it
usually doesn 't leak but I don 't know if there are any safeguards . They
also state that they use chemicals that are biodegradable to protect the
environment .
IEmmings: Yeah , it says here if the unit is tipped over .
Ellson : Backwards it cannot spill out forward unless the tank is over half
full .
Erhart: That provides the way out is to require that they put a kind of
wall around it . Fence or a wall real close to it and you can 't tip it
over . As you suggested in that last paragraph .
Ellson: Then it 's not so portable . In and out .
Emmings: Then how do you get in it?
' Batzli : Well what they do at some parks to avoid it is they require a
fence be built and basically the fence , or it 's a screen . Fence and
basically it hinges so in order to tip the toilet , you 'd have to run over a
11 pretty good fence . They do that in Burnsville and some other parks .
Farmakes : The one at our place , or in Greenwood Shores is just a portable
unit but the same unit is inside the Carver Beach area over by the skiing
area . That 's in some sort of enclosure so they must take that out or drain
that in a different way . So they must have more than one way of
maintaining them .
Emmings: Have you got anything else Jeff?
11
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 17
Farmakes : No , that 's it .
Emmings: I guess the way I think about this is that it 's an experiment . '
I 'm not sure that we ought to have portable chemical toilets in beachlots
but I know that there are some and I know that there are people who want
them . I guess I regard this strictly as an experiment and if it doesn 't
work , I hope it 's written such that w.e can prevent them . If we find things
that are wrong with doing it , if we decide to go ahead and do it , we want
to be sure we 've got a tight rope that we can pull it back and get rid of II
it because I can foresee that that might happen . But because there are
people interested in having it , maybe it 's worth trying to do it to see if
we can do it in a way where we can keep a reasonable handle on it . Is II there anymore discussion on this? If there isn 't , I 'll ask for a motion .
Mike Mason : I just want to make a couple of comments . I share some
of Ladd 's concerns about chemical toilets . I spend a fair amount , I live II
in Carver Beach and I spend a fair amount of time down there in the summer
with my kids and I don 't care how often it 's cleaned , they stink . They 're
very . . . Lake Ann , the ones at Lake Ann and clearly these won 't be used II. anywhere near as much . I understand that but they do create an odor and I
think that 's a concern . Listening to some of the commissioners , I find
_ myself softening a little bit on that . I do think that if this is
approved , it should be done on a yearly basis . You get the approval of all
the people in the neighborhood want it . Well , in 3 years the neighbors
change and there might be some . . . Certainly I think some kids are going to
go use the lake for a bathroom whether you have a toilet for them or'not . II
My guess is use by the lake would be lessen . Use of the lake would be
lessen . I also share some of the concerns that Jeff raises about them
being tipped over . Although the one in Carver Beach , I know they do have
some sort of fence on one side of it so you really would have , it wouldn 't
be just a matter of 4 or 5 people coming to knock it over . You really have
to work at it to do it . I like what you 're saying about the experiment . 11 What I see about that is once something like this gets in place , I think
it 's pretty hard to remove it . I 'm just voicing my opinion on it , that 's
all .
Emmings: Dick? ,
Dick Wing: I 'd just to mature this thing , it 's got a lot of gray areas ,
before it sneaks out of here because then it just gets all the more
confusing . Specifically I guess I don't understand where we wound up here
on the setbacks . I look at Pleasant Acres who has no depth at all and they
had 1 , 2 or 3 of them down there as I remember . They exist now . They 're II
in place now . Beaches have them now and I think they need to be
controlled . I think there needs to be an ordinance to control the fact
that they are going to exist . So I have two questions I 'd like to see
clarified before it leaves the Planning Commission and one would be the
setbacks . I think that needs to be clarified. Especially this one for
Minnewashta Parkway area . It 's a very narrow lot with homes on both sides
and new homes going in and that 's going to be a real issue because I 've had
a phone call on it . I support the neighbors of the neighborhood and the
owners of the property so I 'm kind of going back and forth here trying to
do what 's fair . The other thing is screening . I think these are large
structures . I think they 're very unsightly structures . They 're not
compatible . . .beaches so the screening is a big issue . But to screen that
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 18
large of a building or structure on some of these smaller lots is a major
undertaking and I think that , I guess for me to support it , the screening
has to be well defined . And then the neighbors that are requesting it ,
have to realize that there 's going to be quite a bit of inconvenience to
them to properly screen it . Whether it 's done with vegetation or done with
the proper fencing . I don 't know which would be best . I don 't have an
opinion but the issues of the setback and screening , I think the Planning
Commission really needs to kind of set those in concrete a little bit . . . .
here without those details .
Emmings: My comment on that Dick is this . If we 're going to specify the
screening and we 're going to specify the setbacks , then I don 't think we
can do it . And the reason I don 't think so is this . It 's going to have to
be real site specific because you 've got such a variation . If for example
you 've got a situation like the one that Minnewashta Heights has , there 's
no way . They had one down there last summer and there 's no way you could
see it from the road . They 're only 25 feet wide so both neighbors on both
sides could see it and you could see it from the lake . I don 't know how
you 're going to write any kind of a sideyard setback for that place because
even if you put it right in the middle , you 're only 12 1/2 feet away from
each neighbor and that 's not far enough really . And I think for someone
like them , it 's going to depend on the neighbors past experience with that .
' If they didn 't like it there , this is a chance for them to put the kabosh
on it , which I think they ought to have . A right I think they ought to
have . But if it hasn 't been offensive to them in the past and they know
that signing a consent is only for one year at a time , they might say fine .
Go ahead and do it . As far as screening goes , if I 've got again , a
beachlot like that , there 's probably no way I can screen it other than
building a structure and again , if the neighbors don 't care , I don 't know
that we should care . And there will be some beachlots , I think where
because of topography or other things . You know if you 've got one that 's
300 feet of lakeshore that 's all trees and shrubs , you can probably put one
someplace on there where nobody 's going to see it from anywhere . And that
one would be real easy to do . But I don 't know , other than saying that we
regard screening as critical and that if you can 't screen it you can't have
it , I don 't know if we can go further to say specifically how they 're going
to screen it . There might even be places where you 'd prefer not to have
them build a structure because the structure would be as ugly as the
portable toilet itself .
Mike Mason: Could you put something in the ordinance that would strengthen
the site specific statement because I can just see hey , there 's one there .
How come I can 't have one here . And I know you 've got something in here
already .
Emmings: Yeah . That 's why when we wrote the , I wrote the intent it says
the City recognizes that maintenance and use of chemical toilets on some
beachlots may be unsuitable because they cannot be adequately screened from
residential neighbors or lake users . That was sort of the point there .
Maybe it 's not strong enough .
Batzli : But then you clearly , you know in paragraph ( d) that you say it
could be denied or revoked based on violation of the intent of the
ordinance . That intent statement does set forth that some lots might be
unsuitable . It depends on if you want it strengthened .
1
Planning Commission Meeting II
March 6 , 1991 - Page 19
II
Erhart : I guess , going back to what my thought. was . You know we regulate
whether you can have a dock depending on how many feet of shoreline you
have so we have set precedent for looking at the size of these things and II
it determines what you can do with them . I guess when I was reading this ,
I wasn 't thinking of a 25 foot wide beachlot . I guess quite frankly in my
mind , the purpose , is not the general purpose of this is to serve a 11 beachlot that has higher than , fairly high use? And I guess when I think
of a 25 foot wide beachlot , what 's the purpose of that? Is it just for the
purpose for someone to get access to the water but not hang around there? II
Emmings: No .
Erhart : What do they use it for? I
Emmings : It is very heavily used . And I have to say , well . You 're closer
to it than I am Dick but I live what , 4 houses down from it or 5 houses
down from it and it imposes . When I first looked at it I thought boy , II
that 's going to be a pain in the neck and it really is not at all .
Erhart : Okay , but what , do families take their kids down there and picnic?"
Emmings : Oh yeah .
Erhart : Is there a bigger area in the rear?
Emmings: No , it 's just tiny and it 's very heavily used .
II
Erhart : How do you keep the kids off of the neighbors lawns and stuff?
Emmings: They have fences on both sides of it . I don't know if they do
keep the kids off the neighbors lawns but they fences on both sides of it
and they seem to me to be very responsible in their use of it . It 's kept
pretty neat . It looks pretty nice all the time as far as I can tell . 1
Ellson: . . .the neighbors mind , then they have a chance to say no .
Erhart : If you can 't , it isn 't wide enough. to have this thing so many feet"
away from the property line , then it isn 't big enough to have a Satellite .
Conrad : But the neighbors aren 't going to decide .- I
Ellson: What if they all - say no , I 'm not going to sign it?
Conrad: They can screen it . 11
Batzli : They can screen it .
Conrad: Remember the neighbors don 't have control based on the way the
ordinance is worded . Only if you can 't screen it .
Erhart : I 'm all for this . I think it 's a good idea but there comes a point"
I guess where the lot 's just not adequate physically to .
Ellson: There 's one in all of Chanhassen that we 're talking about? II
II
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 20
Emmings: Again , I hate to be put in a position of defending this , and
I feel kind of like I 'm doing it but the flip side of that Tim is that
little one is getting heavier use . Minnewashta Heights , I don 't know how
many boats they have out there which is. something else we really need to
get a handle on in the city because that thing grows every year and they 're
not under the ordinance . I know they 're grandfathered in but they 've
expanded the use of that tremendously over the years . But that heavy use
may be more of an argument to have it than not to have it . I don 't know .
Maybe it is .
Batzli : I think it does . And given the nature of the use with a lot of
kids , I think that 's the kind of area that you need one of these . And the
' fact that it becomes odiferous actually probably means something positive ,
unfortunately . Somebody 's using that instead of going where they
shouldn 't .
Mike Mason: It doesn 't to the neighbors though . You know if they 're
getting that whiff through the window all night long .
Ellson: But you know , I 've been around some of them and I know that I 've
been around some smelly ones but I 've also been around some that are really
clean . I don 't know if maybe those need to just be maintained more often .
Maybe they need a daily clean-up or whatever it is but isn 't it possible to
complain about those things and have them improved? Because I 've really
been around some and I can 't believe that so many people went through it .
' Dick Wing : Again if I could offer an opinion . More than that , just during
the Fire Department picnic at my house . . .the first two years we had one and
even though we put it as far off the yard as we could , it was no man 's land
that day and the next time I said , you know let 's just use the house . It 's
more pleasant but that 's neither here nor there . Specifically Minnewashta
Heights with that narrow lot , what bothers me about these setbacks is that
if they put it anywhere in their outlot or their recreational lot , it 's so
close to the water that should there be any vandalism , it 's in the lake .
That 's all there is to it . And in Greenwood Shores , I think they 'd be one
of the worst abusers , the City itself and the City ought to be required to
anchor these down . Specifically with Minnewashta , should you tip it over ,
it 's directly into the drainage directly to the lake . So it 's , I 'm going
back and forth with you Steve . You really can 't write any rules . On the
other hand , without the rules , they really can get kind of carried away .
In those little lots 10 feet from the lake abutting the neighbors houses .
Emmings : We do have , you know right now we do have an ordinance that says
you can 't have them and we can leave it that way . I mean that 's the choice
that we 're talking about here .
Dick Wing: Minnewashta Creek , who I think brought this up , has a good
sized lot and would adhere to your ordinance which is the main issue and
frankly I think that 's . . .and then from that point on , I think other lots
are going to have to fall in line . They 're either going to work or they 're
not going to work . They 're either going to have to go home , and I don 't
know how much lake useage there actually is . . . little kids going to go up
and use that anyway or is the lake still their primary means? So pollution
versus convenience , I don 't have any idea on that . I 'm really worried
about the smaller lots . The one we were discussing that brought this up ,
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 21
isn 't going to be a problem . . . On Pleasant Acres there 's no setback . . . I
don 't know the other lakes . I 'm not . . .beachlots or Carver Beach . Are we II
going to , is the ordinance going to be so vague that they 're just going to
exist all over the place or are we going to put in enough controls that are
going to say some lots can 't have them?
Emmings : Anything else?
Erhart : I might offer that there is a way to keep them from tipping them II
over and that 's attaching them on the bottom . Attaching them to a
permanent wall on the side at least 4 feet high or something instead of
trying to attach them to the base . Require that they have a concrete block,
wall or something which could be part of the screening and attached in the
center halfway up . There 's no way you 're going to tip it over . The only
question is , will the BFI company provide a method of attachment 4 feet up .
I don 't know . Again , I think we ought to proceed . We have to learn some II
things as we go along . I think in general it 's a good idea .
Emmings : Do you have a motion? '
Batzli : I move the Planning Commission recommend approval of the ordinance
amending Section 20-263 set forth in this packet with the following
modifications . Paragraph ( a ) , second sentence it says , side and front yard ll
setbacks shall be maximized to achieve maximum screening from adjacent lots
and the lake . On paragraph ( c ) , the first sentence shall be amended as
follows . First sentence would read , Use of a portable chemical toilet
shall require annual approval . The application shall be initially approved
by the Chanhassen Planning Commission after conducting a public hearing .
Each subsequent year the application shall be reviewed for approval by the
City Planning Department . In subparagraph 4 of (c ) I would insert the word
commercially before the word maintaining . New paragraph ( d ) which reads ,
the portable chemical toilet shall be securely anchored to the ground to
minimize tipping of the toilet . Letter ( d ) shall become ( e ) . The words
denied or shall be inserted before the word revoked in the first sentence . II
In subparagraph 2 . After the word ordinance , the words or if the portable
chemical toilet otherwise presents a nuisance shall be added .
Emmings: Is there a second?
Erhart : I 'll second it . '
Emmings: Alright . As far as discussion goes , I think we 've got a problem .
We can 't approve anything can we? We can? Without City Council taking
action on it? He said that the Planning Commission is going to approve .
Batzli : Well we recommend that the City Council adopts this ordinance . I
Emmings: Is that understood from what he said?
Krauss : Sure . Yeah . '
Batzli : I meant to say we 're recommending that they approve it . He knew
what I meant . I
Emmings: Alright . Is there any discussion?
IPlanning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 22
Batzli moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend to
approve an Ordinance Amending Section 20-263 of the City Code which shall
read as follows:
THE CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL ORDAINS :
Section 1 . Section 20-263( 2 ) of the City Code shall be amended by deleting
the words "portable chemical toilet" .
Section. 2_.._ Section 20-263 of City Code shall be amended by adding the
following Section :
16 ) Portable chemical toilets may be allowed on recreational beachlots
so long as the maintenance and use of these toilets have no
undesireable impact on the environment , residential neighbors or
lake users . The City recognizes that the maintenance and use of
chemical toilets on some beachlots may be unsuitable because they
cannot be adequately screened from residential neighbors or lake
users . Any use of chemical toilets on recreational beachlots shall
1 be subject to the following minimum standards:
a Setback from ordinary high water mark shall be 75 feet . Side
and front yard setbacks shall be maximized to achieve maximum
screening from adjacent lots and the lake.
b . The portable chemical toilet may only be used during the- period
' from June 15 through September 5 and shall be removed from the
beachlot at all other times .
' c . Use of a portable chemical toilet shall require annual
approval . The application shall be initially approved by the
Chanhassen Planning Commission after conducting a public
hearing. Each subsequent year the application shall be
reviewed for approval by the City Planning Department. All
applications shall be accompanied by the following information :
' 1 ) Name , address and phone number of applicants .
2 ) Site plan showing proposed location of chemical toilets .
' 3 ) Name , address and phone number of entity providing chemical
toilet .
' 4 ) Plan for commercially maintaining the chemical toilet ,
including a copy of any agreement for maintenance , and the
name , address and phone number of person responsible for
maintenance .
5 ) A written description of how the applicant intends to
screen the portable chemical toilet from all views into the
property including views from the lake . The City regards
screening as essential and no portable chemical toilet
shall be allowed where it cannot be screened unless all
residential neighbors consent ( in writing ) to allow the
toilet without screening ( any such consent shall be deemed
Planning Commission Meeting
March 6 , 1991 - Page 23
to be given only for the year in which it is given and not
for any other future time ) .
d . The portable chemical toilet shall be securely anchored to the
ground to minimize tipping of the toilet.
e . Approval for a portable chemical toilet may be denied or
revoked upon any of the following grounds :
1 ) Complaints of residential neighbors; '
• 2 ) Any violation of the intent of the ordinance or if the
portable chemical toilet otherwise presents a nuisance.
3 ) Any evidence of failure to maintain the toilet to eliminate
odors and pollution or to maintain screening .
Section 3 . This ordinance shall become effective from and after its date
of publication .
All voted in favor of the motion except Ladd Conrad who opposed and the
motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1 .
Emmings: Ladd do you want to state your reasons?
Conrad : I just don 't think the benefits outweigh the risks and I do
believe that as the ordinance is worded , I would change this and basically
my direction , if we are to be flexible , would be to have some certain
minimum standards . 100 yard lot width for sure . 30 yard side yard setback
for sure . Anchoring to some permanent structure for sure . And probably a
statement , intent statement that we , and this is my own thought and it
obviously doesn 't reflect anybody elses here but generally discourages the
use of chemical toilets except when certain conditions exist that protect I
the environment and the neighborhood . Did I say yards? I meant feet .
Thanks for catching me . On those standards I was thinking feet .
11
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND ARTICLE VIII PERTAINING TO THE PUD,
PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT DISTRICT.
Paul Krauss presented the staff report on this item . Chairman Emmings
called the public hearing to order .
Erhart moved, Batzli seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Emmings: Anybody want to talk about this?
Erhart : Yeah , what was the reason when Mark , let me step one back further . '
When we first redid our PUD ordinance , that was on here a few years ago I
guess , I was always left with the impression that we were talking about a
PUD related to residential development in a residential zoning district . II It never occurred to me at that time we were talking about anything other
than that . Then Market Square came along and all of a sudden we were
I
1 ORDINANCE NO.
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
1 CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA
•
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION 20-263 OF CITY CODE,
' THE ZONING ORDINANCE
THE CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL ORDAINS:
' Section 1. Section 20-263 (2) of City Code shall be amended by
deleting the words "portable chemical toilet" .
Section 2 . Section 20-263 of City Code shall be amended by
adding the following section:
(16) Portable chemical toilets may be allowed on recreational
beach lots so long as the maintenance and use of these
toilets have no undesirable impact on the environment,
residential neighbors or lake users. The city recognizes
1 that the maintenance and use of chemical toilets on some
beach lots may be unsuitable because they cannot be
adequately screened from residential neighbors or lake
1 users. Any use of chemical toilets on recreational beach
lots shall be subject to the following minimum standards:
a. Setback from ordinary high water mark shall be 75
1 feet.
b. The portable chemical toilet may only be used
during the period from June 15 through September 5
and shall be removed from the beach lot at all
other times.
c. Use of a portable chemical toilet shall require
approval from the City Planning Department. All
applications shall be accompanied by the following
information:
1) Name, address and phone number of applicants.
2) Site plan showing proposed location of
chemical toilet.
1 3) Name, address and phone number of entity
providing chemical toilet.
4) Plan for maintaining the chemical toilet,
including a copy of any agreements for
maintenance, and the name, address and phone
number of person responsible for maintenance.
5) A written description of how the applicant
intends to screen the portable chemical toilet
1
5
1
from all views into the property including
g
views from the lake.. The City regards
screening as essential and no portable
chemical toilet shall be allowed where it
cannot be screened unless all residential
neighbors consent (in writing) to allow the
toilet without screening (any such consent
shall be deemed to be given only for the year
in which it is given and not for any other
future time) .
d. Approval for a portable chemical toilet may be
revoked upon any of the following grounds: 1
1) Complaints of residential neighbors;
2) Any violation of the intent of the ordinance; 1
or
3) Any evidence of failure to maintain the toilet
to eliminate odors and pollution or to
maintain screening.
Section 3 . This ordinance shall become effective from and
after its date of publication.
Passed and adopted by the City Council of the City of
Chanhassen this day of , 1991.
ATTEST:
1
Don Ashworth, City Clerk/Manager Donald J. Chmiel, Mayor
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03%25.91 09:46 DSU, INC. E001
1
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Honorable Mayor Chmiel,
Members of the City Council
city of Chanhassen, Minn.
' Sir:
I am unable to attend the meeting of 3-25-1991 at which time the
issue of portable toilets on beachlots is scheduled for discussion.
However, I did want to offer a few comments for cocideration on
this important issue, particularily as it relates to neighboring
land uses and to water quality.
' The situation that brought this issue before the planning
commission was a desire to place a portable outhouse on our
assocition beachlot off Minnewashta Parkway. Some felt that it was
inconveniet to return to their homes to use toilet facilities, and
others concidered that it would help to clean up our lake. While
I firmly believe that every step should be taken to protect and
' preserve all of our natural resources, I question the impact this
convenience on this lake.
' I have taken the time to contact several of the state and local
agencies that are directly involved with water quality and
wastewater management including the Department of Natural
Resources, the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, the Metropolitan
Council, and the Metropolitan Wastewater Control Commission. Upon
briefly explaining the prospect of a portable toilet on our
' beachlot, the initial response in every case was that the reduced
impact on the lake would be minimal at best. With a watershed of
over 5 square miles, and with residential development as the major
land use in the watershed, their stated concernes for the lake were
phosphoruse loading from soil erosion from construction, fertilizer
run-off from residential lawns, roadway run-off,sand placed on
beaches, and feces from water fowl and feed lots. In fact, using
information provided by the P.C.A. , and some assumptions about the
water fowl population of the lake and our beach usage, it was
estimated that 11% of the yearly phosphorus loading comes from
ducks and geese, while only .001$ comes from people using our beach
for summer recreation.
While the impact on the lake appears to be minimal, the impact on
'
abutting single family properties could be significant.our beach
lot is only 60 ft. or so in width. The home to the south is set
back from the street about 35 ft. , while the home to the north is
set back considerably more than 35 ft. . In fact, the front of this
house is nearly even with the rear of the house south of our lot.
Where will the toilet be placed so 'it will not impose on our
neighbors? If its placed along the north property line, and behind
the building set back of that home, the toilet will be in the
existing picnic area of the beach lot. If it is similarly placed
along the south property line, it will be within 15 ft. of that
home. Would a responsible neighbor even ask to impose this type of
unnecessary use on another neighbor? I think not!
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I think that if this type of convenience is found to be necessary
for the "public health, safety, and welfare", it should be a
permanent structure hooked up to the existing sewer line and be
constructed to be compatible with abutting residential homes.
If the city is sincere in protecting its lakes and wetlands, the
M.P.C.A. , the M.W.W.C. , the D.N.R. , Met'Council, and perhaps a half
dozen other state and local agencies and private firms could be
contacted to get the necessary information with which to make an
informed decision. The simple truth is this. If a swimmer is going
to use the lake to urinate, they will do it if there is a
convenient toilet or not. .nd unlike water fowl, fish, and other
water type animals, humans don't deficate in the water. Clearly,
portable toilets on beach lots are a convenience to the beach
users, and nothing more. •I support the citys intent to do
everything possible to keep our natural resources entact, but in
this case the impact on the neighborhood could far outweigh any
mitigative benefit to the lake, or convenience to us, the lake
users.
Si ely
dw. . H s A.S.L.A.
Minnewas a Creek Addition Homeowner '•
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