1i. Minutes 11 UNEDITED
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
1 SEPTEMBER 4, 1991
Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7:50 p.m. .
IIMEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart , Ladd Conrad, Steve Emmings and Jeff Farmakes
MEMBERS ABSENT: Annette Ellson, Joan Ahrens and Brian Batzli
STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss , Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior
Planner; Kathy Aanenson , Planner II ; Sharmin Al-Jaff , Planner I; and Dave
IHempel , Sr . Engineering Technician
IPUBLIC HEARING:
REZONING OF PROPERTY WITHIN THE CITY ZONED A-2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE
DISTRICT TO RR. RURAL RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT.
IPublic Present:
Name Address
IRonald & Linda Landin 710 West 96th Street
Wes & Carol Dunsmore 730 West 96th Street
Karen Hasse 630 West 96th Street
Matt Thill 9610 Meadowlark L;ne,.
Orlin Schafer Carver County Assessor
Kyle Colvin 701 West 96th Street
I
Mari. Laaser 8037 Erie Avenue
Dour barinsky 8731 Audubon
Don white 8850 Audubon
ICheryl Hobbs 8850 Sunset Trail
Kathy Aanenson presented an update of the staff report on this item from
Ithe last meeting. Chairman Emmings called the public hearing to order .
Wes Dunsmore: Wes Dunsmore over on West 96th Street. I guess I wasn 't
aware of this even going on until last week. We got a notice on it . Ours
I is one of them that was added , West 96th Street. I was wondering why it
was added when nobody that 's affected on our street even requested it?
' Emmings: This was motivated by the Planning Commission. That's us up
here . When we were doing the Comprehensive Plan and we 've been doing some
other things , it seemed to us that the RR classification , that the rural
Isubdivisions fit better in the RR classification than they did in the A-2
classification and so we asked the planning staff to come forward with a
proposal to make that change.
I Wes Dunsmore: Well our neighborhood is an old one. It's well established.
There 's no development going on in there . Any of these things that you
people are concerned with, beds and breakfast , cemeteries and wholesale
I nurseries and stuff have nothing to do with it and I guess I can 't ever
foresee that coming into our neighborhood.
Emmings: Do you see this adversely affecting your neighborhood in any way?
1 Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 2
1
Wes Dunsmore: Well it does . I look to this . I see no benefit. The only
Ithing there 's a disbenefit to us by the fact that now we 've got to get a
CUP if we want to do some agricultural buildings . We 've got horses .
Several people on our street have horses or whatever and I can see it in
the long run too maybe if some of the people, and I know there 's a few on
1 the street that are looking to retire in the next 10 years or so and maybe
sell . That whole neighborhood is like a little hobby farm neighborhood .
That 's what attracts people out there . They like a few acres . If all of a
Isudden this is going to put a binder on us where we can 't have the horses
or you can 't have the pole barn or whatever , that could really affect our
market value down the road . And it 's going to cost us what? $75.00 if we
I want to apply for a CUP and right now we don 't even need that . I think
it's $75 .00 and then you wait on it but I can't see any benefit and I 've
got the neighbors here that signed a petition that we are in favor . That
we do not want it .
IEmmings: Alright . Have you presented that petition to the City?
I Wes Dunsmore: . No . I went to the Jeurissen neighborhood too and I believe
that 's just George and then Chuck and Sandy . It's just two houses and
they 're on the end of our street . I 've got the signatures and stuff here .
Emmings: Sure , why don 't you give them to Paul . _
Wes Dunsmore: But I guess I want to make that feeling clear here that
Inobody in our neighborhood that I 've talked that 's going to be effected by
this is interested in doing it . We like it the way it is and everything is
working. We 'd like to leave it that way . Now I understand where all these
' other neighborhoods are there 's a lot of development going on and you 've
got to make rules and regulations and stuff now but there 's nothing on our
street anymore to be developed. There 's maybe one lot right there on
TH 101 . I guess if they put a cemetery in , that's fine. That 's quiet with
IIme . I 've got no complaints .
Emmings: Here comes our quorum .
IWes Dunsmore: I guess that 's the main point I want to make here is that we
are a well established neighborhood. The oldest one around there I think
Iand we are not interested in being changed . We 'd like to leave it
agricultural . Thank you .
Emmings: A couple points that he brought up . As far as having horses, the
IIchange in the zoning wouldn 't affect that . Is that correct?
Aanenson: Continual use?
IEmmings: Yeah. They could continue to have horses but if they wanted to
build a structure , an accessory structure like a pole barn , like he said to
Ihave the horses in , then they would need to come in for a permit for that
now under RR where they don 't have to under A-2 . He 's right about that
right?
I
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 3
Olsen: Agricultural buildings . . .if they want more horses , they would have
to come in . If they want to expand over the number of horses that they 've II
got which was one of their concerns .
Emmings: Okay . The West 96th neighborhood has brought in a petition
saying they don 't want this change . Alright, is there anybody else here
who wants to be heard on this?
Don White: Yes , Don White , 8850 Audubon Road . I heat my home with a heat II
pump system that uses well water and it 's a pump and dump arrangement where
the discharged water flows out into the creek but goes across the lower end
of the property . I know in some more recent zoning that type of system has I
been excluded and I 'd just like some clarification to make sure that that
existing system would still be permitted under the proposed changes .
Krauss: There is no city ordinances or regulations that I 'm aware that
specifically deal with that . Now the DNR is regulating those things these
days. If you 're pumping over a certain amount of gallons, you need some
sort of a withdrawal permit from them and they 're getting much more ,
restrictive on that . But we did not regulate that to the best of my
knowledge and we 're not proposing to change that at all .
Don White: Okay , thank you . '
Matt Thill : My name is Matt Thill . I 'm from 9610 Meadowlark Lane . That 's
in Riley Lakes Meadows . We have horses and we went through a lot of
trouble and expense to get that okayed with the city and I guess I wouldn't
want to add any restrictions to having horses in that rural area . You know
if the property were to change hands , if new people would like to bring
horses in for that kind of reason . I know that there 's other issues in
the rezoning that have brought this up but just from that standpoint I 'd
really like to see horses not restricted anymore than they are . We have
never had a problem with any of the neighbors . None of the other neighbors II
in our neighborhood have horses and we try to be proactive about it and ask
them to make sure that they 're happy with the way we 're keeping them and I
stuff like that . And everyone 's real happy . Sometimes their kids are down
there and stuff like that . I really think it 's a compatible use and I
don't think you should have to get a permit and have to take a chance on
that . I guess if I were trying to sell it to someone and they knew that I
there was a conditional use permit , maybe that might not be so clear . They
might move on to another property . So thank you.
Cheryl Hobbs: I 'm Cheryl Hobbs and I live on Sunset Trail which is Country II
Hills and I have three questions. First of all , Country Hills is about 4
houses on Sunset Trail . Would you be rezoning just one side or one portion
of that street? is
Emmings: I don't know the answer .
Krauss: 10 Ann , you 're probably most familiar with how the neighborhood '
lays out .
Olsen: Country Oaks? I
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 4
Krauss: Country Hills .
ICheryl Hobbs: It 's a deadend street and there are .
' Emmings: Do we have an overhead here of this?
Olsen: Is that the one off of Audubon?
ICheryl Hobbs: Off of Lyman .
Olsen: Where it 's just a street that goes straight up?
ICheryl Hobbs: Yes .
Emmings: Could you point that out on the map so we're sure , we're sure we
know what you 're talking about .
Olsen: I think it was our intention to do all of the , both sides of the
II street .
Cheryl Hobbs: The actual part that was subdivided and which is called
' Country Hills is like 3 or 4 houses .
Olsen: It 's on the west side .
ICheryl Hobbs: And the other neighbors didn't get a notice of this so I
figured the reason was because they weren 't part of it which means half of
the street where the homes that were there the past 15 years would be zoned
one way and then another section would be zoned another way .
Emmings: Apparently we don't know but that 's something we probably should
Ilook at . Your 's is the newer of the sides?
Cheryl Hobbs: Right . This would be the portion that was subdivided .
I Emmings: Would you happen to know the name of the subdivision that created
the lots on the other side of the street?
ICheryl Hobbs: It probably didn't have a name . It 's just .
Olsen: Isn 't there just like one lot?
ICheryl Hobbs: No . There would be 2 or 3 homes .
Olsen: On the east side?
ICheryl Hobbs: Yes . And then my other question. Yeah I think would be
important to me if you knew what you were subdividing or changing . And
Ithen my other question is , I 'm coming in here with a feeling that I would
rather that you didn 't make this change because it seems to me that it 's
taking away a lot of your options of what you can do with your land. I 'd
like to ask you what benefits there would be outside of maybe having more
II
control over what your neighbor puts up . What benefits would it have to me
as a landowner to have it rezoned?
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 5
Emmings: I don 't know . Do you want to answer that?
Aanenson: Well we talked about that last time too. The mobile homes . I
Cemeteries . The pole barns . Those issues . Wholesale nurseries .
Cheryl Hobbs: But I mean me as a landowner . If I didn 't care what my
neighbor put up . Why would I want it to be changed?
Emmings: Then there probably isn't . ,
Conrad: Yeah , then there's no benefit . The idea is you do care about what
your neighbor puts up and that 's what a lot of the other areas that are 111 inteested in this zoning change , they're positive about it because then
they have some control over what goes in next to them. That's what makes
them nervous . Right now they don 't have that control and that's why the
logic of shifting the zoning is there.
Cheryl Hobbs: Okay . Well I guess the , you know my feeling is this area is
rural and we don't have a problem . We're insulated. We have plenty of
trees and vegetation and I don 't see that we have this problem in this
area . My third question is , if this has anything to do with the MUSA line
now being moved , which we are not included in , and if we're looking down
the road to having sewer and water someday and being able to subdivide
part . You know make 2 or 3 building spaces , how does this affect it?
Which way would we be better? To have it as agricultural or?
Aanenson: The same minimum lot size , 2 1/2 acres so .
Krauss: I 'm not sure that it matters . If you were going to subdivide your I
property when sewer and water becomes available , you have to rezone it
again to RSF which is our single family district elsewhere in the
community .
Emmings: Regardless of which zoning you have .
Krauss: Regardless whether it's A-2 or RR . The only problem could be ,
again if one of these uses that people were concerned with, mineral
extraction or the cemetery or mobile homes or whatever was located on
adjoining property , then it would probably make your property somewhat more I
difficult to develop and sell . But I don't know whether that 's a
possibility or not . We can't sit here and tell you these things are
definitely going to happen if we don't do this tonight . There's just a I
chance that it will . As far as this being tied into the MUSA line , I think
the Planning Commission's request actually predated the MUSA line moving by
quite a bit . It had nothing to do with that . It was simply that we had
these basically rural subdivisions sitting out there and we have some of
them that are zoned RR and some are zoned agricultural and they allow some II
different things and it was just a desire to have that corrected .
Cheryl Hobbs: Okay , thank you. '
Emmings: Thank you .
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September 4 , 1991 - Page 6
Mark Laaser : My name is Mark Laaser . We currently live in Chan Estates
but I 've recently purchased a lot on Sunridge Court and our intention in
II buying that piece of land was to eventually build a stable there for
horses . I need a , I 'm just asking a point of clarification. What does the
change in status mean in terms of having horses? I 'm a fairly new resident
IIto the area and I 'm totally naive to these classifications.
Aanenson: You need a conditional use permit for horses.
IMark Laaser : And a conditional use permit means exactly what?
Krauss: A conditional use permit , it 's not a guarantee . It 's not a sure
Ifire thing that you'll get it. It basically opens it up for public
comment . There are some standards against which conditional use permits
requests are weighed . Does it impact other properties? Is it something
' that 's consistent with the neighborhood? Those sorts of things. A public
hearing is held and neighbors are notified and their concerns are taken
into account . And based upon that , we make a recommendation to the
Planning Commission . They vote on a recommendation at the City Council and
it 's ultimately their call .
Mark Laaser : As to whether or not to allow people like us to build a barn
Iand have horses and that kind of thing? -.
Krauss: Yes .
IIMark Laaser : Well is there a grandfather provision to this such that if we
already own the land , even though we haven 't erected a barn yet .
I Krauss: No , the grandfathering applies if the building was up and in use ,
it would certainly apply in that case .
Mark Laaser : If we tether a horse on the property now?
Krauss: You can tether one .
Mark Laaser : So in Other words we'd have to go through that whole process
if this change , because I 'm assuming that our parcel on Sunridge Court
there is included in this group of 10.
IKrauss: Is that the north parcel?
IMark Laaser : Well I can show you here on the map that I have in my hand.
Aanenson: I think Sunridge is , yeah .
' Mark Laaser : It is included? Okay . Alright , thanks . I would object to
it then on that basis .
IErhart: In the RR district , is there any maximum size to a building that
can be erected for use as a horse stable?
Krauss: As an accessory building there 's a size limitation I believe as to
how much yard area you can occupy .
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Planning Commission Meeting 11
September 4 , 1991 - Page 7
Olsen: It 's 30% of the rear yard .
Erhart: Is there any difference between A-2 and RR in that regard? I
Olsen: No . In all the other residential districts we swithced it so
there 's a maximum of 1 ,000 square feet but in the RR and agricultural ,
district it 's just 30% of the rear yard .
Erhart: So if you get the permit you essentially could build an
agricultural building . There 's no restriction on that .
Krauss: Right . There is another twist that we should point out and it 's I
not specifically related to the zoning ordinance but rather than building
code . You can build an agricultural building in an agricultural area and
you don 't even need a building permit for it . State law exempts them from
getting a building permit requirements. Now I would assume that my
interpretation of it is that , if you're going to get a CUP approved , you
would also then need a building permit in the RR district .
Emmings: Is there anybody else who wants to address this? Is there a
motion to close the public hearing?
Conrad moved, Erhart seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Emmings: Tim , have you got any comments on this? ,
Erhart: I guess I don't understand , there 's a list of 9 things here . If I
owned a 2 1/2 acre , 5 acre lot . If I owned a 2 1/2 or 5 acre lot , there 's
9 things here that I wouldn 't want occurring next to me . I thought that 's
what we were trying to accomplish here because we have had our share of
these here. I mean we 've had, well I 'll just take some examples .
Commercial transmission tower that we just approved out in an A-2 area . We II
had people in here from Timberwood complaining about that and that was 3/4
of a mile away .
Krauss: There was also testimony from Sunridge Court residents that they I
objected to that .
Erhart: Which is even further away . You had problems with the neighbors I
at Northwest Nursery complaining about their operation across the street
and they 've got a small lot . Electrical substation . Do we have any
minimum sizes on a lot for these electrical substations . If somebody could II
buy an existing 5 acre lot and come in and put in an electrical substation,
is that true?
Krauss: I suppose that 's theoretically correct . '
Erhart: So this lot that 's apparently , according to Wes , which is
available on the end of West 96th Street could be an electrical substation
as long as it 's zoned A--2 .
Krauss: Correct .
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11 Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 8
Erhart: It could be a golf driving range . Cliff Simon 's got enough land
there that you could make a golf driving range . So I guess I 'm really
II surprised that there 's some negative reaction to what seems to be just a
proposal to enhance the protection offered to people in lot sizes under 10
acres in general if you look through the whole group including Hesse Farms .
I On the other hand, the existing stable users really have no problems unless
they want to expand at which time they could come in and ask the neighbors
to come in and comment which seems to be there and pay $75 .00 . Given that
I you don 't expand your stable everyday , I 'm not sure that 's such a burden .
So again I 'm a little surprised at the negative reaction on it . There 's no
limit to the size of building they can build . Only limited by what the
neighbors might object to . I guess if it was really out of place I suppose
Ithey 'd object but if it 's in an area with hobby farms, I don't know why
they 'd object so much . I guess I still tend to believe that we 're offering
a lot of protection here and I 'm not sure . I guess I 'm speaking to West
I96th Street . I think we agreed at the last meeting , all the rest of them
were approved so I guess I 'm still inclined to proceed with it . I think
the problem with West 96th Street is you 've got one side of the road is
hobby farms and the other side is smaller lots without horses so it 's kind
of the same situation as Cheryl . . . I guess I 'm inclined to proceed with
it . It seems to me it offers protection with very little adverse impact on
it .
' Emmings: Okay . Ladd?
' Conrad: I guess I echo Tim's comments. It seemed like the thing that
homeowners there would like but they don 't . Do we have any rationale for
kicking the West 96th group out of this zoning change? Is there any logic
for the zoning change not applying to them? I haven't come up with it .
IIEmmings: The only one I thought of is that it 's all built up. There 's
only one empty lot so the potential is probably less but still it could
happen with these other uses to come in there .
Carol Dunsmore: Excuse me . Could you speak into the microphone . We can 't
Ihear you .
Emmings: I 'm not saying anything important anyway . All I said is the only
rationale that .
IICarol Dunsmore: It 's very important to us .
' Emmings: The only rationale I could think of for excluding West 96th
Street is it 's essentially built up and of course that doesn 't stop
somebody from buying one of the places that are there . Tearing it down and
putting in some of these uses that maybe the neighborhood, that we thought
I
maybe the neighborhood would like to have some control over . But that 's
the only rationale I could think of that would make it different because I
think most of the ones we 're dealing with are places where there are some
houses but there 's still a lot of empty lots . A lot of empty large lots .
Conrad: I 'm stuck on this one because we've got most properties that we 're
' talking about subdivisions would like this . We deal with neighborhoods all
the time , every 2 weeks we deal with neighborhoods talking to us about why
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 9
are you letting that into our neighborhood . That's literally 4 hours every
Wednesday night we listen to that . This seems like some protection that I II
would like if I were there . And I can understand the nervousness of
somebody saying hey , conditional use permits for a stable is not a
guarantee and I understand that. I would be nervous too. I wouldn 't like
if I had a stable , I wouldn 't like that taken away . So I guess my decision
is whether to kill the whole thing right now or to go along with it . I
guess the wishes of the rest of the neighborhood . I 'd be interested in
what the rest of the , I wish there were more Planning Commissioners here
tonight to sway me because I think it's a tough issue .
Emmings: Do you want to try and swap Ladd Jeff? ,
Conrad: Yeah , sway me Jeff .
Farmakes: How many of the listing here that we have 1 thru 10 , how many
residents were notified in total? Do you have a tally on that?
Krauss: It was quite extensive . It took quite a while to make the mailing II
list up .
Conrad: Hundreds? h '
Aanenson: Yeah . 150 . 200 .
Farmakes: And of that group, how many would you feel that were in the
hobby farm area?
Emmings: What is that? I
Krauss: That 's kind of fuzzy though . That 's oftentimes you 're getting a
subjective question as to what the owner perceives their property is and
how they use it . Arguably some of the folks in Timberwood might believe
they have a hobby farm because they have 5 acres and a big tomato patch . I
think some of the individuals on 96th Street have probably tend to more
what you think is a hobby farm . 1
Farmakes: That 's what I 'm trying to do. I 'm trying to get an idea of
what 's on here . '
Krauss: I don't have a number for you but most of the lots are in the Lake
Riley Hills or something like that which is , there was a whole slew of II these subdivisions that came in 1986 and 1987 for the most part trying to
get a jump on the change of the City Code down to 1 per 10 acres zoning .
All those are what I would classify as, including Timberwood, as a more
traditional rural subdivision and not a hobby farm area . That's most of
the lots.
Farmakes: The next question that I have is , we talked a bit about taxes
before or about getting a response . Did you get a direct response on
that? I read something in here but .
Krauss: We 've got better than a direct response . We have the man himself .
Orlin Schafer , the Carver County Assessor is here tonight and can directly
answer your questions .
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IIPlanning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 10
Emmings: Let 's make sure we understand what question 's being asked. We 're .
wondering is there going to be a change . Is there a tax consequence
Iassociated with a change from A-2 to RR for the people who live in these?
Farmakes: That 's correct .
IIOrlin Schafer : That 's your basic question . Whether or not zoning
influences value and consequently taxes .
IFarmakes: The previous hearing that's what most of the questions were in
regards to .
IOrlin Schafer : Right. It 's similar in circumstances to the MUSA line
change . The fact that the line changed didn't change values to the
property. Use dictates value of property. If you now have in these areas,
if you now have 10 acres or more , you can qualify for the agricultural
classes as we see agricultural .
Emmings: So it was the agricultural classes , Green Acres , what 's commonly
referred to as Green Acres?
Orlin Schafer : Right . Or just outright without the Green Acres protection
I you can have agricultural . Agricultural use aitd we appraise it and
ultimately tax it in that light . By the same token we have people within
the context of the city that are in a commercial zone that now have
agricultural class by our office on their property because the use is still
agricultural . They 're maintaining a cropping procedure . That is a truck
farming type of operation and due to the income generated and so forth , the
use of the property , it dictates that it qualifies for agricultural use and
Iwe continue to carry it that way on the book . And appraise it and assess
it that way . Property right across the street does not carry that and is
assessed extremely high in comparison . So looking at the zoning strictly
IIfrom a tax perspective or the impact it would have on my office and our
outlook on the future values of that property, up front I would say there 'd
be no impact . Somewhere down the line someone in these areas is going to
I want to subdivide . It happens . It 's nice to have the idea that you 're
isolated . That your a hobby farm or that you 're rural and that you'll
always be that way but that very rarely remains the case . Somewhere along
the line economic pressures or whatever it might be changes that and people
Irequest subdivisions . If you really don't have the zoning and those
protections that you 're eluding to earlier in place at that time , you 're
opening up a whole can of worms and then we have some negative impacts as
Iwe view property . Not demeaning mobile home courts or manufactured housing
situations . If one of those would be constructed in an area , the
surrounding property is definitely impacted by it and that could be very
much of a negative impact . And so those are the things that you 're
looking at . We really don't care how you rezone the property , we look at
the use of the property . So if you leave it A-2 and move a mobile home
court or something in there or a recreation facility of some kind into that
IIand impact the adjoining properties , we will look at the impact it has just
as if a manufacturing plant was built in the middle of a residential area
and you made a conditional use permit . Granted it or something and that
Iplant had an adverse affect on the residential area around that . We
compensate those people for that act on your part . So we react to the
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Planning Commission Meeting 11 -
September 4 , 1991 - Page 11
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conditions as they exist . Not as we anticipate them to be .
Emmings: Right . And that 's because you 're oritentation is to the value of II
the property and not to the zoning classification?
Orlin Schafer : That 's correct . And if property is properly zoned, and if
you do not put unreasonable restrictions on this rural res class , there
should be no impact whatsoever on these small tract owners. I question the
ability to build an agricultural building of any size without some
restrictions. I don 't see that anywhere else in the township. I would
wonder why you would want to allow it here . Even if it were a stable or
whatever . I think you do have to have some control over structures , II whether they're agricultural or whatever regardless of where they're being
built . You have to have road setbacks . You have to have all those things
that conform to any other zoning class . And unless you're really limiting
these people , I would see no adverse impact at all due to the fact that it II
changes from A-2 to RR . If a tract owner out there , and we do have a
couple because I 've been contacted by them . If they 're in an agricultural
pursuit at the present time , and we have them classed ag and they get the
benefits of the ag calculation. The ultimate calculations. They can
continue to receive that . We have no problem with that . I 've advised
everyone that 's asked me about it or questioned it to apply for the Green
Acres classification to protect their interest in the ag classification .
As we see it , it has nothing to do with the zoning because if you wanted to II
change that to non-ag use , their Green Acres would be meaningless because
they 'd be not conforming to zoning law. But if zoning would allow an
agricultural use in a residential area , I would see no problem with it .
They are entitled to the Green Acres classification if they can qualify .
Anything else?
•
Conrad: Did Don Halla call you just last week?
Orlin Schafer : He was one of those people that called , yes . I
Conrad: And last week , or two weeks ago he made an issue that he was
deprived of his Green Acres status . I thought he did didn't he? He had
some issue .
Olsen: Dave Halla .
Emmings: That wasn't Don. That was Dave .
Conrad: That was Dave . I
Orlin Schafer : There are some other impacts in that situation because they
have a rather large tract that they've subdivided and there are some other .
That 's an individual situation that really I don't know how zoning would
impact it one way or the other because they've chosen to do what they did .
We reacted to what they did. And a couple of their lots were changed in
value simply because they had chosen to improve them . I mean that 's
normal . That would happen regardless of what they were zoned. So those
kinds of things . For the most part they still qualify for Green Acres .
Right . I
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 12
Emmings: Okay , thank you Orlin .
IFarmakes: The last thing I 'd like to say on this is you made the statement
I believe that you wanted the freedom to do what you wanted on your
II property that you have now before this zoning is changed. And you also
mentioned that you have a next door neighbor who 's looking to retire soon
and may want to subdivide his property and that restricts him and might
' affect the value of his land . Is that the statement that you made?
Wes Dunsmore: No . Not subdivide . Just sell his place period as it stands
right now .
IFarmakes: I thought you said subdivide . The thing that worries me about
this is it doesn 't take a person who can read into a crystal ball to look
I and see that an urban city is just over the horizon coming towards you .
I guess what we 're trying to do here is plan ahead for that . It certainly
gives the city some basis to plan and develop orderly rather than to deal
on a crisis basis . When somebody puts in something to your next door
I
neighbor that you just can 't live with and you come into the city and you
look for some justice to be done . What you consider to be an okay use is
not necessarily what your neighbor thinks is an okay use . And because
I several of you are fortunate enough to have several acres between you , what
your neighbor does across the way maybe doesn't concern you very much but
at some point in time that city is going to come up over the horizon there .
I You 're not far away from it and it seems to me that based on the amount of
people that have been notified here , it 's hard for me to say that those
people shouldn't be afforded that protection because of the amount of
people that are here tonight and have based a legitimate concern about
I their useages for their land . Horses and so on . I can understand that .
It's one of the reasons we moved out here .
IWes Dunsmore: Can I say one more thing?
Farmakes: Sure .
' Wes Dunsmore: I know what you 're saying here is you're trying to give us
this protection . There's nobody here says we want it . We all say we don't
want it . Including the people that signed that. Everybody knows what this
' is . The City is not going to surround us unless they can fill in lakes
behind us and next to Tim and bulldoze out TH 101 and Pioneer Trail .
They 're not going to encroach . . . We know the protection you 're trying to
' , give and you 're doing it for neighborhoods that were started in 1984 on up.
We 're back in the 60 's in our neighborhood and there isn't going to be any
more development there . And I can't believe right now that the City would
let me put a cemetery on my place if I wanted to . Do you think that'd be
I
okay if I go out there and start a cemetery or a mobile home park? Or do
you think the city might step in and stop me right now .
IConrad: You would have the right to do it .
Wes Dunsmore: I could do that?
IEmmings: Is that a permitted use?
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 13
Krauss: It 's a conditional or interim use so there would have to be a
public hearing . I
Emmings: Even in the A-2?
Wes Dunsmore: So they could stop me right now without changing. They
already are protecting me right now without changing my zoning so I really
can't do what I want right now in agricultural or residential . I can't
believe somebody'd let me put a cemetery or wholesale nursery without
coming before the City Council or Planning Commission or somebody to try
and stop me . Maybe they would stop it but what we 're doing is the people
that are here that signed that petition say thank you for the protection
but we don't want it . We want to stay ag .
Cheryl Hobbs: Could I say something too? I appreciate the protection .
Emmings: Maybe you 'd tell us your name . First of all , what was your name?
Wes Dunsmore: Wes Dunsmore . West 96th.
Emmings: And your 's ma'am .
Cheryl Hobbs: Cheryl Hobbs . Maybe we are morn concerned with our freedom 1
than our protection . The freedom to do what we want .
Resident: Can I interject one thing? '
Emmings: No , I think this is getting a little out of hand . We closed the
public hearing . Maybe what we 'll do is finish the comments up here and if II
there are people who've got some further comments , maybe we'll let you come
back up.
Farmakes: I think I 've said my comments. I still think that this is a
good thing . Perhaps we can review that issue on the 96th Street . If the
city wants to look at that and the homeowners . If they're on the far end
of the land useage as far as the size of acres , it 's not in my back yard .
But I still don't think that the issues that we talked about , we deal with
issues of land all the time here and freedoms to use your land. If I put
in, to use a hypothetical issue. If somebody wants to put in pigs next
door to you or a nuclear waste dump , you have to draw a line as to where
freedom ends as far as land use goes because we all live next to one
another . Some of us live farther away than others- but I don't think that '
if this designation is changed that it really is going to be that
restrictive on your freedoms .
Emmings: For my point of view, I was looking at this primarily as right
now we 've got , we're a community that's moving from kind of a rural
character where we 've got the northern half is rapidly becoming very urban
and the southern half we've got sort of more of a rural character but we 've '
got these housing developments springing up in there with large lots. When
you look at that trend , there's large lots now . Those lots may be
subdivided in the future . We don't know but the trend is towards a more I
urban kind of situation and it seems to me that housing developments like
these subdivisions belong in a residential category rather than an
1
Planning Commission Meeting
1 September 4 , 1991 - Page 14
agricultural one. If somebody wants to come in as the last lot in a rural
I subdivision with large lots and they want a stable in there and none of the
neighbors want it , they probably won't get it but I think we want to be
sure that they come in and we give those neighbors something to say about
I it . I know if I were in a rural subdivision and my neighbor wanted a
stable , I wouldn't want it but that 's just me . On the other hand I guess ,
so I think this is a reasonable thing to do. The only thing that makes me
I uncomfortable is in the 96th Street case , I 'm not comfortable saying you
need this protection if you 're out there saying you don't want it . To some
extent . We hear that a lot of times . We didn't ask you for this . Why are
you doing this to us? We do have to think in a little broader terms than
1 just what you desire but I think that it may be a situation where if
everybody in the subdivision doesn't want it , maybe they ought to be able
to opt out . Maybe we could have a provision in there that says if they can
I get everybody to sign something saying they don't want to be RR , leave them
A-2 . I don't think that 's likely to happen .
Erhart: If I can address that point . I think in the first place I have a
I number of my neighbors here . I personally don 't really care . I 'm not
worried about these things either . But we started this process looking as
you say in general with all of the 2 1/2 , 5 acre lots we've got in the city
I to offer some protection that was already here . I mean this RR district
existed for many years and quite frankly I guess I 'm going to vote for this
because I think it 's good planning and that 's what we 're supposed to do
' here . Quite frankly , from a political standpoint the process is due at the
Council meeting and if the Council says gee whiz . It appears that there 's
a majority or 10fl% or whatever they want to view it , that doesn't want to
be in this , I don 't care . So in a sense if this petition represents you
Idon 't want to be in it and Council looks at that and says that 's the
political will of that neighborhood, I 'm fine with that too but I think
from a planning standpoint , I guess I 'm going to vote for it because I 'm
1 struggling with the same thing you are.
Emmings: Yeah , okay . Now you've heard our comments and there are a couple
I hands going up back here that wanted some comments . If you 'd make them
brief .
Matt Thill : Matt Thill , Meadowlark Lane . Mr . Dunsmore was talking about
Isome of the older neighborhoods that may not have a problem. I think some
of the newer neighborhoods may not either because they have really
restrictive covenants . You can 't put mobile homes . You know radio towers .
' More than one accessory building or any accessory building over 850 square
feet . There are a lot of restrictions in some of the newer neighborhoods
including mine . And livestock , that came up . You can't have that in my
' neighborhood other than horses . No businesses . Only one accessory
building and the other structures . The other thing about this is that you
have to buy the lot and you hope that you can get horses but you've plunked
your money down by the time you apply for the CUP. So I guess a
Iperspective buyer would want to know up front and you really couldn 't say .
Emmings: I suppose you could buy it contingent on approval too.
IMatt Thill : Thank you .
I
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 15
Marlin Edwards: Marlin Edwards . I live at Audubon and Lyman Road . My
problem is just as the city needs to plan , so homeowners need to plan and II
before I ever bought my 11 acre lot at the intersection of Audubon and
Lyman, I came in and talked to city planners about the long term plans for
that property and I was told that they had recently extended the existing
zoning which allowed A-2 for that category of property from the year 2000
to the year 2010 . So before I ever bought the lot I came in and talked to
the city planners . I figured that out . I am using it agriculturally . I 'm I
planting trees there . I want to have a nursery there . I realize I could
apply for an exemption .
Emmings: Are you in one of these subdivisions? '
Marlin Edwards: Yes I am .
Emmings: Which one?
Marlin Edwards: Sunridge Court .
Emmings: Okay .
Marlin Edwards: So just as the city needs to plan, homeowners need to
plan . The City has no accountability . People come and go . The City
changes it 's rules . I made very conscientious plans . Went through all the
proper channels to figure out what the City's long term plans are . Now
they change plans. I don 't know when I apply for Green Acres . I don 't
know how long it will be before the city will change regulations and
disallow me to have Green Acres .
Emmings: That's State law . We can 't . Is that right Orlin?
Marlin Edwards: Did you not mention though that it was possible for
example Green Acres protection would not protect someone if the city
regulated that agricultural uses were not longer even appropriate in that
area?
Orlin Schafer : I don 't think . This is what I meant . If you put
unreasonable restrictions on and said that an agricultural use would not be
permitted in this type of subdivision, then you're affecting value of
property . It would be feasible if you no longer qualified for the Green
Acres . You can get Green Acres in downtown Chanhassen if you qualify . They
have no control over that .
Marlin Edwards: I guess my issue is just as I understand the City 's need
to protect the interest of new homeowners , I feel the City has a
responsibilty to protect the needs of people who've gone through all I
possible recourse to establish what the City's plans are . People need to
plan as well as the City needs to plan and I 've been very disturbed with
the city 's trends in the 3 years I 've owned that property . I had to go and I
have it reclassified A-2 . As soon as I built a house on it it was rural
residential and now you 're disallowing the A-2 and I imagine the Deglers
see the writing on the wall too. I don't feel good about the trend because '
I believe people who planned to have certain uses ought to have that
respected by the City . That 's just not how growth goes I guess .
I
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 16
IEmmings: Alright , thank you .
Erhart: It 's not clear to me , what effect the is on.
IIEmmings: We should probably , you know anytime that we can talk to people
about long term , we should probably have to give a warning that long term
Iis about 3 months here because I think that's about it today . Yes ma 'am .
Carol Dunsmore: Carol Dunsmore , West 96th Street . I 'd like to direct my
first question to Ladd . Because you walked in after my husband spoke , he
' made some excellent points about why West 96th Street and the J'eurissen
Addition should be eliminated from this rezoning and I feel that you cannot
make an informed comment or decision after not hearing his talk . I 'm sad
Ithat you didn 't hear it because he gave some excellent .
Emmings: Well why don 't , if you feel that 's important enough , let 's do a
'
recap .
Carol Dunsmore: But my other comment was , I have a petition here that 12
out of 17 homeowners on our street says no , we do not want it . Object
I means no . N 0 and 12 out of 17 and it 's sad to see that the Planning
Commission is not listening to the residents . That 's what I thought the
public hearing was for . To listen to the residents . Take in their
I concerns and it sounds like it 's all hogwash . That you don't even care
now . You 're just going to pass something because you think it feels good .
It 's not affecting you . It's affecting us .
I Emmings: Right , and I guess my comment there to you would be , if notice
went out to 150 people . We 've heard negative comments from a very small
proportion of those really and there are times also when we pass things
I here that may not be wanted by a majority of the people but they are things
that have to be passed for certain reasons . You know regulations . Nobody
wants to be forced to pump their septic system every 3 years and to tell us
I who 's doing it . We put people through a lot of problems with that . Nobody
with a septic system really wanted to do 'that but we made them all do it .
So there are times when we have to do it . I 'm not sure this is the same
kind of issue . I 'm not saying that but , why don't you tell , if you could
' quickly recap your comments .
Wes Dunsmore: Again , I 'm Wes Dunsmore . I don't mean to take up the whole
' night here .
Emmings: No , we asked you to .
' Wes Dunsmore: Well thank you . I guess all I 'm just saying is that we , our
neighborhood is old and established and I realize there's got to be rules
and regulations . I know I work for the City of Eden Prairie 20 years . I
I know how this stuff goes but we are established and I cannot see where we
can possibly subdivide down there because most of it is lowland behind us
and all that and, I can't see , never 's a long time but I can't see where
Iwe 're going to be bringing in anything new in there or anything else . I
think it 's going to stay the same . If somebody's house burns down , they 're
just going to rebuild it . That 's all there 's going to be . There 's going
I
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 17
to be no golf course there or any of these 9 or 10 issues here that you
people are concerned with allowing in there . Like I said on the end there , I
I can't believe that I could go in there right now and put in a cemetery
and so on . I think the people here would stop me and I think that 's a
reasonable request . We're already developed . I can't see any of this
coming in . There's no way . Whether it's allowed right now, I can't see
that you people would let me do that . I think that 's almost justified
enough there . I didn't even talk to everybody on the street . Everybody
that I did talk to last night signed that petition. A lot of people
weren 't home . So thank you.
Emmings: Yeah, thank you . Alright , is there any more comments up here?
Erhart: It wasn't clear to me how this affected the fellow with the
wholesale nursery . '
Krauss: Well a wholesale nursery is an interim use and requires public
hearings and all that .
Erhart: But he already has it .
Krauss: Well as I understand it , I 'm pretty sure I know what lot it is .
There 's some agricultural use going on just ofi of Lyman in Sunridge Court . II
That 's a permitted use in the RR district .
Erhart: What is? '
Krauss: The continuing of the agriculture is a permitted use in the RR
district . '
Erhart: Raising trees is considered?
Krauss: Yeah , so there is no implication . Now if there's a desire to '
build a large barn or have a feedlot or something else , yes. Then it would
impact it but to the best of my knowledge , I think I 'm familiar with which
lot we 're talking about , it shouldn't impact it at all . By the way too ,
Commissioner Farmakes, you asked how many people we sent notices to . Kathy
was counting that up. There was 204 notices sent out .
Farmakes: I just want to make sure I 've got that right . There are a total I
of 17 and you had 12 on your petition?
Carol Dunsmore: There are 17 houses . . .and there's 12 now . 1
Emmings: Alright . Is there a motion?
Cheryl Hobbs: Are you going to find out about that street . . .
Emmings: What? Oh. I think what we're going to have to do on the issue I
you raised . Let 's see , that was Country Hills?
Farmakes: Both sides of the street .
I
1 Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 18
1 Emmings: Yeah . I think they 'll have to take care of that between now and
the City Council meeting . Thank you for bringing that up .
IIErhart: I 'll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of
Rezoning #91-9 for property zoned A-2 , Agricultural Estate to RR, Rural
Residential District with the 11 subdivisions listed in the report.
' Emmings: I see 10 .
Erhart: Okay , yeah . There 's 10.
Emmings: I 'll second it . Is there any discussion?
1 Erhart moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of Rezoning #91-9 for property zoned A-2, Agricultural Estate to
RR, Rural Residential District for the following Subdivisions:
I1 . Timberwood Estates
2 . Sun Ridge Addition
1 3 . Country Hills
4 . Pioneer Hills
5 . Lake Riley Woods North
' 6 . Riley Lake Meadows
7 . Deerbrook
8 . Hesse Farms
9 . West 96th Street Area
I10. Jeurissen Addition
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
1 Emmings: This will go to City Council when?
•
' Olsen: 23rd .
Emmings: September 23rd and follow the issue there . Our action is not a
final action . It 's a recommendation to the City Council and you have every
I right to politic all you want between now and then with those folks . They
will make the final decision .
IPUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO CREATE A BLUFF LINE PRESERVATION SECTION TO
THE CITY CODE .
I Chairman Emmings waived the staff report and called the public hearing to
order .
' Emmings: I wasn 't able to make it to the visit to this property out on
Hesse Farms . Did anyone who was here go?
IOlsen: Tim and Jeff did .
Emmings: Okay , what did you guys see out there?
1
1
Planning Commission Meeting I
September 4 , 1991 - Page 19
Erhart: A lot of trees. What 'd we see? What we saw was a lot that the
person purchased that 's between two existing very nice homes. The lot
itself did not have the view that the other homes had because it faced into II
a ravine and therefore the home , the lot owner wanted to build the house
further down the slope on a ridge that went down and over to the right . It
certainly structurally could be done and it would afford him a very nice II view and a yard further down on that ridge . On the other side , the house
would have been right in the view of a lot of other homes looking down on
it. It would have been quite visible I think it a lot of other homes .
Certainly acutely to those two homes . Quite visible to a lot of other
homes all along the bluff and if you go around to the other , I drove around
through the other side of Hesse Farms on the east side and my analysis was
that all of the homes were built up and off the bluff . And it's hard to
tell and I might be wrong if there 's any actually built down into the bluff 1
area like that one that we 're discussing that one . The analysis that I
have of it is that if you're going to have this ordinance , then the
ordinance , if this ordinance doesn't prevent that house from being built
there , then there isn 't a lot of sense to have the ordinance . I 'm not
saying that the ordinance is desireable or not. If we 're going to have
this ordinance , that house . . .then not much has been accomplished.
Farmakes: It was a perfect thing to go to . For me it was just what that
ordinance would prevent . I guess I was surprised by how little, as far as
planning in purchasing that lot work had been done on his part to really
fared out whether or not he could build a home there . You 're saying it
would be possible for him to build out in that area but he 's done no soil
testing . He 's done no, as far as general conversation with him , he 's done II
no work with engineers or inquired as to whether or not how feasible it
would be to build a home down there . I 'm not an engineer but it would
certainly be a difficult operation to put in a house down there I think
just logistically anyway . But it also seemed to be in an area that this
ordinance , this whole intent would be to stop.
Emmings: Okay . It didn't make you feel bad about the ordinance I take it? II
Erhart: It did what I wanted it to do . I wanted to have the viewing
because I still had some concern about the ordinance. It's not what I I
intended when we started this bluff preservation talk here 3-4 years ago .
Obviously I 'm going after the commercial area and this is the first thing
that got on the agenda so I 've had some doubts about it but I think after '
having gone out there I feel better about the ordinance .
Emmings: Okay . This is a public hearing and are there any members of the
public hear that want to address this? Nobody 's talking.
Conrad moved, Erhart seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. ,
Emmings: Other comments. Tim, do you have anything further you want to
say?
Erhart: No .
Emmings: Ladd? ,
IIPlanning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 20
IConrad: No .
' Emmings: Jeff?
Farmakes: No .
IIEmmings: Me either . Is there a motion?
Erhart: Now we know why we have seven people on the Planning Commission .
' Emmings: Huh?
IErhart: So you can get motions. That 's why they have seven people on the
Planning Commission is so they get motions fast .
Conrad: I recommend approval .
IIErhart: Where are we?
' Emmings: It 's. on the first page .
Conrad: I know but there 's nothing .
IOlsen: Because there 's so many different sections we just , you can just
say recommend approval of the bluff protection ordinance I think will
suffice .
IConrad: Okay, recommend approval of the bluff protection ordinance as
found in the staff report dated August 28th.
IIErhart: I 'll second it .
Emmings: Alright , is there any discussion?
IConrad moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of the Bluff Protection Ordinance as presented by staff in the
staff report dated August 28, 1991 . All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
PUBLIC HEARING
IIREZONING OF 90 ACRES OF PROPERTY ZONED A-2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE DISTRICT TO
PUD, PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT TO CREATE 10 INDUSTRIAL LOTS LOCATED SOUTH OF
CHICAGO, MILWAUKEE, ST. PAUL AND PACIFIC RAILROAD AND EAST OF AUDUBON ROAD,
IIRYAN CONSTRUCTION.
Public Present:
' Name Address
Kent Carlson Ryan Construction
Brook Lillestol 8460 Bittern Court
Rick Allerdings 8461 Cittern Court
Jeff & Ann Kullberg 8480 Bittern Court
IIMike & JoAnna Adler 8470 Bittern Court
Planning Commission Meeting I
September 4 , 1991 - Page 21
Name Address
■
Doug Barinsky 8731 Audubon
Don White 8850 Audubon
Mark Leaser 8037 Erie Avenue
Kathy Aanenson presented the staff report on this item .
Emmings: Is that retention pond taking water from what part of the site?
Aanenson: Pardon me?
Emmings: What part of the site would be draining into that retention pond? II
Aanenson: The entire project .
Krauss: The entire site would drain into it . We 've also asked that the
developer develop this pond to the NERPS standards so we 're not only
retaining water but we 're removing nutrients . ,
Erhart: Excuse me . The pond's not shown on the plans at this point .
Krauss: No it is . If you look at the grading plan . '
Aanenson: It 's on there . It 's noted .
Erhart: Oh, okay . So it 's completely out of what we consider existing
wetland or it 's out of the existing wetland?
Aanenson: It 's in a floodplain . ,
Krauss: You mentioned that the wetland that 's located on the property . I '
think we 've been out to the site several times and calling it a wetland 's a
little bit expansive . Right now it's a spot in the soybeans where beans
don't grow real well .
Erhart: Are you talking about Outlot A or are you talking about Lot 6? '
Aanenson: Lot 6 .
Erhart: Oh , I understand that .
Kathy Aanenson continued with her staff report presentation at this point . II
Chairman Emmings called the public hearing to order .
Kent Carlson: My name is Kent Carlson. I 'm with Ryan Construction Company II
and I thought we 'd just maybe talk a couple of minutes about our
organization and the things that we see happening on the site over the next
few years . I 'll make our advertisement for our firm brief as possible but '
to give you a little background on our firm, we 're 53 years old. We 're a
design-build construction development organization and we 're fully
integrated with our own staff of design people . Our property management
people . Our construction people . Financing and development people . We 've
II Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 22
IIbeen in the business for over 50 years. Started up in Hibbing in the coal
and lumber business and then moved down to the Minneapolis area in the
early 60 's and since then have developed over 3 1/2 million square feet of
II property that we currently own and manage . During the boom years of the
80's we did a lot of development for our portfolio and a lot of third party
development . That ratio is about 75% for our portfolio and 25% for third
party owners and our clients who own and occupy their own facilities .
Today the market 's changed a little bit . We see a lot more of our business
70%-80% of it now being done for third party people and that 's what we
anticipate happening on this site . A number of build to suit projects
which would be homes for a lot of manufacturing organizations and warehouse
and distribution organizations . We do plan and have on the drawing board
several multi-tenant properties that we would own and manage ourselves
Iwithin our portfolio . With me tonight is Dick Koppe with RLK and
Associates and he is the engineer for the site . He is here to help us
answer more technical questions and with that I guess we'll open it up to
11 your questions . Thank you .
Emmings: Okay , thank you . This is a public hearing again. Are there any
' members of the public here who want to address this issue?
Brook Lillestol : My name is Brook Lillestol . My address is 8460 Bittern
Court . I have a couple of concerns . One was in doing this change , does
II this mean that the road itself , Audubon Road is restructured as far as the
amount of trucks that can go through there as far as weight wise and
stuff? I mean the road itself has gone dramatically over the past year as
I far as the amount of traffic I guess you could say and there 's nothing that
we can really do about that but I guess my concern is , is there going to be
a restructure for I think there 's a zoning like a 10 ton truck to go on or
something like that?
IIEmmings: Let 's see , are you asking if there 's a limit on the size of
trucks that can use the road?
IBrook Littestol : Yes, exactly .
I Hempel : Audubon Road has just recently gone through an upgrade . It 's been
built to a 9 ton commercial standard. It's proposed to be kind of a north/
south collector according to the Eastern Carver County Transportation Study
and we anticipate increased volumes of commercial traffic and normal
I residential traffic on that road over the next 10-20 years . As far as
roads being built to accommodate such truck traffic , it 's one of the
purposes of the recent reconstruction of it and upgrading .
IEmmings: Okay. Does that answer your question?
II Brook Littestol : Yeah , I guess so . In other words it 's going to be up?
In other words there will be more truck traffic and there will be a higher?
Hempel : Well potentially yes . From this development will increase the
ltruck traffic but the traffic study would probably give us a better
analysis of which direction they would be going I guess . My first thought
would be access to TH 5 versus going to the south however .
1
Planning Commission Meeting 1
September 4 , 1991 - Page 23
Emmings: Once 212 is built that could change .
Hempel : Exactly . '
Brook Littestol : Okay . The other thing I wanted to ask you was as far as
the long term effect and I 'm very new at this because of the fact that I 'm
a new homeowner and I 've never owned a home before and as far as long term II
effect . As far as property taxes . Does this at any point change? In
other words , with a development versus a residential area going in there .
Emmings: This property is right now it 's zoned A-2, is that correct? 1
Krauss: Yes .
Emmings: But in our Comprehensive Plan it was zoned as industrial property
and that's the way we saw it 's use going . The effect on , now you live
where in relation to this property? You live across Audubon from this?
Brook Littestol : Yeah , right across . My backyard faces Audubon Road .
Emmings: Okay . And are you asking me if this project is going to have an I
impact on the value of your property?
Brook Littestol : Right . ,
Emmings: I have no idea . That 's a question for an assessor or somebody
like that . There 's no way for me to know . We do have also in the
comprehensive plan realizing that there 's residential properties across the II
street , Paul actually came up with this buffer yard concept where we
increase the setbacks for the industrial properties because we know that
there 's a residential development across the street . You get some
separation with the road itself but it will also put in this buffer yard
concept to get the buildings back even further away from the residential
areas. Trying to get as much open space as we could between those two very II
different uses . Maybe Paul can , what 's the difference between a normal
setback and the difference with the buffer yard?
Krauss: The buffer yard was designed to increase the setback area and to I
require that an area be set aside so it can be permanently landscaped to
serve as additional screening . Normally an industrial setback might be 50
feet . What the buffer yard does is along Audubon Road it adds another 50
feet that 's permanently set aside with an easement and covenant so you have
a much greater setback . And internally where you don't have a street , that
buffer yard is 100 feet wide . This issue was explored quite a bit during II
the Comprehensive Plan . Going back a ways, some of the people in the
audience , I know Doug Barinsky was here at that time . Originally one of
the versions of the Comprehensive Plan had the industrial property line or II
the industrial line going down to Sun Ridge Court . That was knocked out
after a lot of discussion because it was concluded that the high point on
the property , this area was right about here . There were some homes on
Audubon that this could most appropriate , the Rod Grams farm, be most
appropriately developed for residential uses . I believe your subdivision
is in this area right here that 's not showing up on our map.
II Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 24
IIBrook Littestol : Right .
II Krauss: The IOP section picks up here . This is the site . There 's also an
industrial site , actually two of them along the as yet unfinished road that
separates your subdivision, between your subdivision and the railway
tracks . What else , another thing that helps this project is that there 's a
I 12 acre site right here that the Weather Service is looking at taking and
that 's really the highest ground in there . They 're going to be moving or
they 're proposing to move the weather facility , the regional weather
facility out from the airport to Chanhassen . There is a radar unit that
comes with it that they 've shown us that has some height questions . It 's
not as high as we thought it would be but basically on a 12 acre site
they're only going to be developing a tenth of it and the rest of it 's all
I going to be green space and that 's the area that's the closest to your
subdivision . So we 're pushing everything back down behind the hill so it 's
down in that valley .
IEmmings: And the land slopes down there so .
IBrook Littestol : Right .
Emmings: I think we 've tried real hard to try and find a way to minimize
the impact of that industrial area .
IBrook Littestol : Well it sounds like you guys have done some planning
obviously but my third question , which me and Dave had talked about this ,
I is about the landscaping . As far as if this goes into effect , what kind of
landscaping does it go in? You had talked about an easement on there and
everything else . Because I mean I really don't think they 're going to put
Ihighway seed out there like you did in my backyard .
Krauss: No. To be honest we 're not, the plans haven 't been that well
developed . This is a concept stage and we 're not looking at the final
I details yet . They 'll be coming back through again and we 'll have more
information on that . But the development itself is obligated to do some of
the work and additional work would be done on individual sites . Individual
I sites we won 't know until they actually come in with them but the buffer is
going to be established along some sort of phasing program so that 's up and
running as the properties are developed . What we 're going to be getting
II and the ordinance , I don 't know exactly what it 's going to be because we
haven 't had it laid out but the ordinance talks about a combination of
berming and landscaping and preservation of topography , wherever that's
useful to do that to separate direct views . I can 't tell you you 're not
going to see anything there because you probably will but I know that the
homes are sort of located on the other side of the street and the street
goes up and then starts going down on the other side . We 'll do everything
Ipossible to screen it . There's probably going to be some . . .
Brook Littestol : Okay , thank you .
Emmings: You bet . Is there anyone else here who wants to?
Jeff Kullberg: My name 's Jeff Kullberg . I live on 8480 Bittern Court . My
IIfirst concern , what sort of restrictions are there and what types of
I
Planning Commission Meeting I
September 4 , 1991 -. Page 25
businesses will be allowed to locate in this park? 11
Krauss: As an industrial park , you know our industrial park , the best
example of our industrial park is to go see what 's in the existing parks
that we have right now. There 's a cross section of office/manufacturing/
research and some warehouses . Now this one is somewhat more unique because
we 're going with a zoning category that allows us to basically have a
contract established with the developers of what will go in there . But it
probably will allow full range of industrial uses . We would expect to have
prohibitions against smelting plant or that kind of a heavy industry. We II
would be looking at the high tech, lighter industry stuff and possibly Kent
might want to expand on that but I 've got to believe that this will look a
whole lot like what we already have on the ground right now.
Jeff Kullberg: The thing I 'm concerned about is things, any sort of retail
development . Any kind of thing that could pollute the ground water or that •
is very high buildings which could be aesthetically unpleasing .
Krauss: Height is something that 's regulated. We would establish some
regulations on that . Right now I believe you can have a 50 foot height
limitation in the industrial district. It will probably be something
consistent with that . Of course there 's buildings rolling off down the
hill and you 're fighting grade so you'll see less and less of it . We would I
also work with them to do things like shielding truck loading areas. . .
building mass to , to bury them towards the back . There's a lot of things
we 'll be working with in fine detail .
Emmings: He asked about retail .
Krauss: Oh , retail would not be allowed in this district . Also we should
add too that the premise that the developer 's working under is that the
sites that are along Audubon Road , because they have the visibility , are
higher quality sites and would tend to be a higher percentage of office as
we read the proposal . The more intense uses or the more square footage
intensive uses would be down in the valley .
Emmings: You mean office . . . '
Krauss: . . .higher percentage of office along Audubon. The higher profile
buildings . i
Emmings: Okay .
Jeff Kullberg: Okay, another concern we have is presently where McGlynn's II
is located now . There are times we drive by there , there 's a dozen semi
trucks parked along Audubon Road and we were just wondering, is that same
thing going to move down to adjacent to our houses now as they're waiting
to be serviced in these distribution facilities? Is there going to be any
no parking signs on Audubon?
Krauss: There is no parking . In fact McGlynn's is doing it and I 've seen II
it during construction , they shouldn 't be doing it . In fact we 've also had
some questions arise when Paisley Park is doing a movie they park along
there . Those are both situations that should not exist and are not ,
I
I Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 26
IIallowed. We do try to work with these people and when McGlynn 's was under
construction they . . .out there . If there's a concern or a problem , let us
know and we 'll respond to that . That 's not permitted.
IIJeff Kullberg: Okay . That 's all I have . Thank you .
IIEmmings: Anybody else?
Ann Kullberg: Yeah , I guess I have .
1 Emmings: Would you like to give us your name?
Ann Kullberg: I 'm Ann Kullberg and I live at 8480 Bittern Court . I have a
Icomment to that because as of right now I believe there are no parking
signs along that street . I have a concern because my lot backs up to
Audubon and when I have children I do not want them running up to that and
having semis there . It's very dangerous at night driving along that
street . I 've driven along there several nights when there 's been over a
dozen semis . I had a neighbor tell me today when I talked to her about
IIcoming to this meeting tonight , that she saw children running along inside
around those semis . It's a very dangerous situation and I guess that's
something that I wish you would include is possibly putting up no parking
signs along there .
1 Emmings: Okay , thank you .
IDoug Barinsky: My name is Doug Barinsky . I live on Audubon Road just
south of there and as Paul pointed out , I did spend quite a bit of time
last year in the land use plan when you determined what we were going to do
here and we were against it but that 's been decided and that really isn 't
IIwhy I came tonight but I think that this issue of traffic is what I was
really kind of interested in and the way this has been laid out I think
will work . As long as we don 't end up with variances down the road
I allowing all those lots along there to have direct access onto Audubon .
I 'm glad our Mayor is here tonight because this is a significant safety
hazard that 's going on out there right now with McGlynn's . Paul just
Iacknowledged here that it 's not allowed but yet for some reason the City is
ignoring it . There are at least on some nights a dozen trucks double
parked on both sides of the road . They start right at the driveway of
McGlynn's . Totally block the viewpoint of anybody entering or exiting into
McGlynn 's driveway and so my input or my reason for even standing up here
is this is approached and obviously will increase the truck traffic . This
is going to have to be dealt with and I would hope that the City Council
' and the Planning Commission would be very adamant about when they approve
the entrance to this whole program, that it be locked in day one in a very
clear understanding that there 's not going to be variances offered later
IIsimilar to what happened I believe with PMT this last year . There they
came along and wanted an expansion and got the okay to have a separate road
onto Audubon . So I drive it every day both ways . I think a lot of these
people here do too and we 're going to have more residential out there which
Iis going to add to the problem. So I hope that if somebody can pass that
word onto our safety commission , -this has got to get dealt with before you
allow more industrial development out there . So thank you .
M
I
Planning Commission Meeting I
September 4 , 1991 - Page 27
Emmings: Thank you . I
Mark Laaser : Again my name is Mark Laaser . We are proposing to build next
spring on Sun Ridge Court which is again south of the proposed development
here . I need to say yeah, one of those lots there you just put up. I have
no specific objection to this . I mean I trust the reputation of the
developers . I have just a general observation to make and the meeting
tonight allows me the opportunity to make it . That is this . One of the
reasons people like us move to communities like Chanhassen is that we want
to be in proximity to the advantages of the city and yet enjoy the rural
quality of the community in which we live . The thought that I would like
to share is I had the opportunity to drive back to visit relatives in the
Chicago area and I grew up on the west side of Chicago in a suburb called
Downers Grove and we have a rather well known tollway. Of course Illinois
does not do anything without charging a toll for it but , called the East/
West Tollway and since I have been a teenager I watched that whole area
between basically Oakbrook , Downers Grove , that area and Naperville , if any
of you are familiar with these areas , develop from a rural community
exactly like Chanhassen and Waconia and Chaska and all these other places
into a major league industrial corridor . You know the havoc that it has
created has been , to me anyway , unbelieveable to the point of raising
office buildings there with no parking and creating traffic jams that are
something unknown to us at this point in Minneapolis. So my comments are
directed toward 10-15 years into the future as well as this specific area 11
which I hope the Planning Commission takes those kinds of things into
consideration . I would hestitate or I would hate to think that TH 5 is
going to become like the area I 'm describing . I don't know if any of you ,
know this area in Chicago . It 's probably a grieving issue for me because
it 's been sad to see a rural area develop into high tech. High tech is
valuable and all of that but so anyway .
Emmings: Maybe we could make Audubon Road a tollway . . . Would that help?
Mark Laaser : Well , to be quite honest with you , I mean I had every
opportunity in the world to move back to Chicago and take a job there as
opposed to take a job in Minneapolis . We chose to move to Minneapolis
because it doesn't present the hassles that Chicago does . We could have
gone right back to Downers Grove and one of the reasons we don't is because 1
of the way that area has developed. Your dealing there with 9 or 10
different suburbs who cannot get their act together to plan anything in
unisom and as a result there have been high rise white elephants go up like '
you can 't believe that I 'm sure they're a tax advantage for someone because
they 're losing money but well anyway. I 've said what I needed to say .
Emmings: Well thanks for sharing your thoughts . You know those are a lot II
of the things that we talk about . We spend a lot of time talking about
here . We hope we 're addressing them. Any other comments? 1
Jeff Kullberg: I 'm Jeff Kullberg again. I have one more question. With
the advent of the proposed 212 coming in in 1996-998 or whenever . How will
that affect the traffic flows and the access to this proposed industrial
park as traffic then comes south? Actually starts going north on Audubon
toward this and then the access, as you proposed is on the north end. All
the traffic would be diverted past our house instead of going in . Is there
I
' Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 28
going to be any access from the south to keep , for these residential areas
or from the west?
Emmings: Is there going to be any access to what from where? Would you
say that again .
Jeff Kullberg: This industrial park other than the one spot shown?
Emmings: No . The one spot .
Krauss: Highway 212 will affect , we go back quite a ways . One of the
reasons the Planning Commission looked at this favorably as an industrial
site was the desire not to put all the traffic onto TH 5 . Was the desire
Ito orient at least a portion of it from Hwy 212 .
Conrad: Thanks Paul .
Krauss: Well I thought it was a good idea .
IEmmings: I think it was your idea Paul .
Krauss: But the access to 212 is to come over here to CR 17 which is
further , goes off my map but there will be a stub of CR 17 that will drop
' south of Lyman and there will be an interchange down what is now a
cornfield down there . Some of the traffic no doubt will find it expediant
to run out that way . Some of it to come up . The idea is to split the
I burden so that it 's not focused on any one point . Ultimately there 's
going to be a signalized intersection of TH 5 and Audubon . Also we have an
internal system here where we have the Lake Drive extension . The road
that 's serving this project is designed to come out through our existing
I
industrial park and we 're trying to basically find alternate routes for all
that traffic to go . You're right , when 212 opens up there will be a
reversal of some of the flow. We 've got some initial projections of that
I in the Eastern Carver County study . The numbers aren't perfect but it does
try to take that future system into account . We 're going to try and get
some better numbers from the developer as part of the development process .
IWe are looking into that further .
Jeff Kullberg: How about presently on TH 5 when you're turning to go south
on Audubon . There 's now a turn lane . There's a paved shoulder which
' people go around right now . Will that be corrected as a part of the
current widening of TH 5 or with this residential park? Will the 4 lane
highway extend out past Audubon or those turn lanes be added?
IKrauss: Unfortunately the existing TH 5 program doesn't go out that far .
It should have and it's a long story as to why it doesn't but it wasn 't the
' City's fault . The question you raise is a valid one and we 're going to ask
the developer to respond to some of that with their traffic study . Now
we 're probably not in a position to say to the developer , there's a problem
a half a mile away you 've got to fix it all but it 's certainly becoming a
I problem now before these guys go in there and it 's something we 're going to
want to address as a part of this program . I 'm not sure how that will come
about or what exactly will happen over there but we 've got a long standing
relationship with MnDot trying to work these things out and . . .
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 29
Jeff Kullberg: Okay , thank you .
Emmings: Thank you . Any other comments or questions?
Erhart moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in 411
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Emmings: Comments , Jeff? Do you want to start this one? '
Farmakes: I always get real uneasy when I hear about industrial being
adjacent to single family areas . I think the City 's in the lot addresses
itself somewhat to buffering the east side of that road. Audubon. I 'm
still , can you clarify the issue of why it's 50 feet on Audubon but 100 to
the south? The buffer zone? '
Krauss: Commissioner Farmakes , that goes back to some of the discussions
that were held during the development of the Comp Plan . It was felt that I
the street right-of-way itself provided physical separation. I believe the
right-of-way is 80 feet at minimum over there and it may be larger . And
then the homes themselves are set back beyond that so you 've got the home
setback . You 've got the right-of-way for Audubon and you've got the 50
feet buffer yard and then you've got the setback for the industrial . That
takes in quite a bit of land . The only thing that will block the direct
visual contact is the buffer itself but I believe , my recollection of it I
was that it was felt that that much distance compensates , you get more than
the 100 foot setback .
Farmakes: The reason I 'm concerned about that is that most of the homes
that you talked about have very flat yards . There 's little or no
obstruction . They 're new homes that are put into what used to be a farm
field I 'm sure . There 's very little in the way of tree growth back there . I
And I 'm looking at this proposed tree line up here and it 's all deciduous
trees so at least in the wintertime they're not going to provide much in
the way of cover . Particularly on Lots 10 and 11 . They still would face
the residential home area . Lot 12, leaves more open space but I think
potentially if a building was put on Lot 11 say , there 's not a lot of room
there . It would potentially be pretty close up there to the highway and I I
believe that particular section is still fairly high before it slopes down
isn't it?
Krauss: Lot 11 I believe has the high point . The buffer yard, the
landscaping that they've developed to date is conceptual and we really
didn't review it for content. Your comments as to the coniferous trees
being necessary there are well taken . In fact we would also look for
grading on that site that 's sensitive to that . When that site is graded
for development , in all probability that knoll is going to be knocked off .
It's going to be flatten out and I 've always visualized having the ability
to retain some of the height along Audubon with the building set down
behind it . We are asking for those elements to be further refined when
they come back before you .
Farmakes: Do you feel that if the buffer zone was increased to the 100
feet that it is to the south, that Lots 11 or 10 would be uneconomical to
be developed? I mean was that a part of the discussion?
1
' Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 30
Krauss: It wasn't a part of the Planning Commission 's discussion . I 'm
sure it has some economic consequence to the developer . I guess our
feeling is we want to have the buffer do the best job. Do the job it's
' intended to do . We think we can accomplish that in 50 feet . We also
accomplish it in a lot less . The room should be adequate to do what we
think needs to be done .
' Farmakes: My general concern would be Lots 10 and 11 . Again, not so much
12 but 10 and 11 . The other comment I had I guess was in relationship to
the traffic area . I 'm really concerned about there is heavy traffic
I generated there or there is there even presently even though it's not part
of this development . I get really nervous when , if there is equipment that
is being parked and running , a lot of times those things are left running .
I Being adjacent to a single family yard where kids play . That makes me very
nervous to hear that . I would hope that we do something about that . I
also on the issues of obviously if there 's past the construction period , if
these are offices , you 're not going to have a lot of semis coming in but do
they have any other tenants at this point other than what 's listed here?
Krauss: We are not aware of any specific tenants . Ryan may wish to
I comment on that . Normally when we deal with something that 's phased over a
3 to 6 period , or whatever it turns out to be , we won't know for quite a
period of time who most of the tenants are . But I don't know, do you have
' any idea?
Farmakes: In office development there 's a particular marketing plan . If
it 's all manufacturing or warehouse or perhaps office spaces . There 's a
I
little different types of traffic . I realize it 's a long term plan. I 'm
just wondering if there is any other tenants on the horizon for this piece
other than?
IKent Carlson: We 've talked to a number of users about this particular
park . . . industrial park than we will with a pure office park . . . This will
Ibe a high tech business park .
Farmakes: But it still would generate a fair amount of truck traffic?
I Kent Carlson: A fair amount is relative . I don 't know what you would
consider to be a fair amount .
' Farmakes: I guess I would be concerned about the truck traffic that would
be heading to the south on that road . Further road improvements take place
to the south there , which very well could be the case . A lot of semis
Irolling down that road .
Krauss: The road was upgraded last year and the City Engineer and I worked
together quite a bit . He was fully aware of what our expectations were . I
I don't know what percentage of the traffic on Audubon Road will be
contributed by this project yet . We have considerably more residential
development that 's going to occur . Audubon Road already serves as one of
I the prime accesses to the City 's major industrial park and the McGlynn's
area which is a separate area and then the portion south of McGlynn 's
that 's owned by Amcon so it is a major traffic artery in the city and we 've
designed it accordingly . Traffic volumes are high and they 're going to get
I
Planning Commission Meeting '
September 4 , 1991 - Page 31
higher . I dare say that would happen without this but yes . The concern ,
for trucks is a valid one . We're asking for some more specific detailed
information but the road was designed to handle it .
Farmakes: I was thinking of the aesthetic again to those homes to the east
that are along there . There 's very little if anything obstructing any of
that. I
Krauss: It 's quite true .
Farmakes: So the City has an easement along that road to the homeowners? '
Is that right? Has an easement along that highway?
Emmings: For the road you mean?
Farmakes: That 's correct . On Audubon Road .
Krauss: I think you know, also with 20/20 hinesight the next item on your I
agenda will fix some of the problems that we're having with that
subdivision. I mean the developer of that subdivision should have and I
think some of the Planning Commissioners felt was obligated to do some
berming and landscaping there. That 's a situation that shouldn't have
existed . Now we can make Ryan do the best job we know how to do on their
side . It doesn 't fix the other side . Hopefully , if we can get that
ordinance through , the landscaping improvements , we can address that more
directly in the future .
Farmakes: That 's the end of my comments . '
Emmings: What he's talking about there with the berming along Audubon it
was , this came up some time ago but when we approved your subdivision , my
specific recollection is that the developer was obligated to put berms up
all along Audubon and plant them . Apparently it got lost in the wash .
Brook Lillestol : Exactly . That 's exactly right.
Jeff Kullberg: We were told that when we purchased our lots that he would I
put in landscaping also .
Emmings: No. And apparently it 's no on the plans or the approval that we I
gave but some of us who were here at the time remember doing it . Remember
requiring it but it got lost someplace . For them too, I think they should
know about our process here . This is the first very preliminary stage when
we 're looking at this strictly as a concept . Now it 's going to come back II
to us again?
Krauss: Yes .
Emmings: For what stage? What 's the next stage called so they know .
Krauss: It 's called a PUO preliminary plat . We are probably going ,
depending on the developer request , we're probably going to combine the
preliminary and final stage .
I
I Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 32
IEmmings: And there will be another public hearing at that time?
Krauss: Correct . And then as each site develops , when the weather station
II comes in or when somebody comes in on the adjoining lot , there's additional
hearings held on those specific plans so there 's a series of opportunities
that you 'll have to provide comment and hopefully we can make adjustments
IIas need be to resolve them .
Emmings: It 's very sketchy now but it will get more and more detailed as
Ithose things happen . Okay . Mr . Conrad .
Conrad: Are you going to follow upon the McGlynn's issue Paul?
IKrauss: Yes certainly .
Conrad: Okay . I think that 's important . I like the trail in here . Both
' the south . I really like that . I 'd like to see that in as we go through
this process . I think a trail system , recreation for employees and this
could handle a significant number of employees . I really like that . I
would hope our landscaping standards are set . I 'm not going to echo what
I
Jeff said but Y will . I think we need to pay attention to the east side
and the south side . Buffering residential areas . Just absolutely and the
applicant should be aware that that 's what a major intent is . I like the
Iplan . I guess I 'm starting out on a negative side but I like the plan very
much . I think it 's interesting or it's a good thing for this particular
area the way I see it . One concern that I do have on it , we 're talking
about weather station . We're talking about a lot of area but I see the
building on the far south really close. Now is that where the radar unit
fits right on top of that pad?
IKrauss: Mr . Conrad we don't know. They haven't come up with a specific
plan . When I met with the weather station , Ryan was at one of those
meetings . Their plan was a computer generated thing that was pretty
Iconceptual . In fact they showed direct access to Audubon Road which we
said we would recommend against strongly. The radar tower does not need to
be on the highest portion of the site . In fact they said it shouldn 't be .
' It sets somewhere down the slope to the west . Exactly where we don 't know .
Conrad: And that tower can be how high?
IKrauss: Our information is that , first of all the FAA will only allow it
to be 140 feet high . Now that 's the same , the Cellular Telephone tower was
originally approved at 180 feet at Lyman and Galpin. The FAA lowered that
Ito 140 feet so if you want to see what it looks like , or potentially what
the height looks like , look at that tower . Now it 's going to be somewhat
down the hill . Certainly it's going to be seen from a distance . There 's
no question about that but it 's going to be sitting basically in a 12 acre
Igreen space . One of the reasons why they have to have such a large green
space is that one of the things they 'll do from this site is they have a
small building that they will release sounding balloons once a day . They
Iactually needed enough land area for the balloons to clear all obstacles
before it departed the property . These things go up 40 ,000-50 ,000 feet .
So it 's kind of a nice use for the site . It 's a high profile , white collar
jobs . 60 professional employees . There 's no manufacturing . There's no
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 33
smoke . It 's kind of a nice high profile type of user for the City . You 'll II
get your time and temperature and if it 's snowing in Chanhassen on the
radio all the time . So we 've been talking favorably with them . I
Conrad: And I recognize this is not a site plan and this is just a concept
stage but on that Lot 12, the radar unit is literally , it is not on the
building or it is on the building?
Krauss: No. None of the plans I 've seen ever showed it on the building .
Conrad: So it's not there . So the building is tucked in pretty close to I
the east and south property line . There 's not a radar?
Krauss: No . That's a small brick, 15,000 square feet office building . ,
Conrad: A small brick , so it 's a one story?
Krauss: One or two .
Conrad: And again, I know that this is not a final deal but I just want to I
make sure you know our comments before you get down too far .
Kent Carlson: The plans of weather service plans changed significantly .
This was . . .access off of Audubon would not be approved so they've gone back I
and modified . The plans currently show the road, their access entering off
of our cul-de-sac and the building would be positioned approximately where
you see the tower shown on your plans and the radar would be pretty close II
to where it's currently shown . . . But the tower and the building have been
moved away from . . .
Conrad: Well that 's good and that again is just a general sense , I like
that a Lot . Landscape , our new ordinance will probably apply to this right
Paul? Okay . We have a new landscape ordinance and you're talking a lot
about that . It's pretty , I think it's nice for Chanhassen residents . I
think you 'll like it . I think we can apply it to this property . I think
it will , I can't say that this is going to increase the value of your
residential area . My objective is to make sure that there 's not an impact . •
It's certainly , I don 't think commercial elevates any residential property .
We've got to be real direct and obviously the other thing is , there 's going
to be truck traffic out there . There is . There's just no doubt about it
but we 've paid a lot of attention to traffic . We're kind of , as we've gone
through some designing of where industrial and office park goes , we 've kind
of paid attention to the traffic patterns so if nothing else , it may not be ,•
perfect for you but at least we 've thought about it in advance and
hopefully can take care of most of the issues or concerns. Safety in one.
Noise is another and I think landscaping is another and I think we 've taken
care of , at least I feel comfortable that we 've taken care of some of
those . But again for the developer , I think the landscaping on the east
side against Audubon is real important to me. And keeping that trail in.
I 'd sure like to keep that in . That's it .
Emmings: Okay , Tim .
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 34 •
Erhart: You 're proposing not to put a thru street through the western half
of this which is very inconsistent with all the industrial area along the
II
track . By doing that you 're going to increase the traffic on Audubon. But
not putting a thru street on there . I 'm wondering is it clear that the
problem with going through the Bluff Creek , I assume the problem is going
I through the Bluff Creek flood zone is why you don 't want to do that . Or
some other reason .
' Aanenson: The existing stand of trees that are there .
Erhart: You could go south of those .
Krauss: Then you're into the residential area to some extent .
Erhart: Isn 't on our Comp Plan the area to the west also industrial?
Krauss: Outlot A to the west is .
IErhart: Let 's go back here . Isn 't that industrial?
Krauss: This is high and this is high and here 's the large wetland , the
floodplain that comes through here and separates the residential from the
IIindustrial . The former City Engineer and I looked . . .it 's advantageous to
have a looped street . I think as you 're aware , staff usually recommends
those wherever possible . Our concern was that we have some very
' significant environmental areas . Sensitive environmental areas down here .
There 's very dense tree cover down in this area . We have the floodplain
for the creek itself . There 's a desire to preserve the creek for a
recreational as well environmental amenity . It 's not impossible to make the
IIconnection but you 're really going to devastate that area to do it . We
also even at one time looked at the possibility of laying out a street
connection that jumped back across the railway tracks . I think the one we
IIoriginally laid out came like that and hooked in right over here. This is
a residential site and it just really didn 't adapt itself very well for the
road. We would have preferred to have that option . We just didn't feel
Ilike we could recommend it .
Erhart: I think we would agree to having it there would reduce the amount
of traffic on Audubon Road because a lot of the UPS and those services ,
Ithey have a route .
Krauss: One of the reasons why we liked the idea of the thru street was
Ithat this then becomes an extension of Lake Drive which is the City 's south
alternate to TH 5 . It goes all the way over to the Eden Prairie city line .
But it just didn't seem the continuity that we would get was worth the
Ienvironmental damage that would ensue . That 's where we 've taken it .
Erhart: Well it 's the thing that comes to mind with me . Having it thru
would have , right now if anybody wants to go from the future western
Iindustrial park to the eastern industrial park , I mean west and east of
Bluff Creek has to now drive around on Audubon Road.
' Krauss: No . I don 't know that I can , what we did though as an alternative
to that southern route was we laid out a collector street section on our
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 35
1
Comp Plan that comes through here . So traffic could come up through our
industrial park and come over that way rather than go all the way around
south .
Erhart: Okay . Essentially in this process that we 're looking at here with
the PUD , the first thing that goes in is the street . . . .we see is the
street goes in first .
Krauss: Well keep in mind that the project will be phased so it will be
graded .
Erhart: The whole thing, well it will be landscaped. Will all the
buffering landscape go in right away?
Krauss: That 's a matter for some discussion. That is what the ordinance
says . That the landscaping go in up front . I 'll be honest and say that I 1
had a discussion with the applicant today who was concerned about the cost
implications of doing it all up front and maybe doing it in phasing is
something that they would propose but that 's for you to determine .
Erhart: Okay , I would regarding the landscaping. This whole thing with
not getting that berm and the landscaping on that residential area . The
residential PUD across the street is really unfortunate and I was really
shocked when I saw as those houses started going up , and as I 'm sure
everybody is . So I guess it seemed to me that we would at a minimum want
to put this landscaping in along Audubon with the first phase . I agree II
with Jeff and I think it was Jeff that stated that most of it is deciduous
here . Deciduous used for the buffers and I 'd like to see at least half of
that be coniferous . Also go beyond that , because of that situation and the
fact that we 've got a 50 foot buffer , that somehow we find a way to go
beyond our new landscaping ordinance where we have trees every 30 feet to
put in two rows where the trees would alternate even if we have to
participate in that effort or some way give credit to park or something .
Somehow find a way to get at least across from that residential area to
increase the landscaping beyond what's in our ordinance . And I guess if
it 's going a PUD , maybe that 's the opportunity for us to find a way to get 1
that accomplished . I also agree , I agree with you . Let 's not try , we
shouldn't be trying to make wetlands out of things that aren't wetlands .
That area in Lot 6 , that 's tilled and not really wetlands that's found on a I
map someplace , we don 't need to take advantage of that . We can work with
the developers more positively than that so I agree with you there. I
think that 's , I think it looks good . I think obviously we 're a long way
from seeing anything specific on it . I guess the other thing is it really 1
lends some weight to our effort to get something put down regarding the
Bluff Creek greenway because now we 're actually talking about some
development which includes that area. I realize that 's on one of our work
items but we need to get on with it here and make sure that this is going
to fit with that . I like the trail . I could even use this trail from my
office . I think it makes a lot of sense . I think when you go into other ,
nicer communities . Industrial parks like out in Seattle , which I spend a
lot of time at , they've got a lot of trails and a lot of evergreens with
trails through them and they 've made their industrial parks really quite
humane . I wish we would have done that in the industrial park that we 're II
in , although the street 's certainly easy enough to use . You see a lot of
1
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 36
joggers . To have a trail . Off street trail would have been really nice .
IEmmings: Okay . I don 't have much additional . I agree with most the
comments that have been made up here . I was wondering where that underpass
under the railroad is in relation to this property .
IIKrauss: It 's actually right over here . It 's on the west side of the creek
and I would imagine it 's kind of the park board 's area and to get to it
I we 'd have to structure some kind of nicely designed wooden bridge or
something across the creek to get there . We had heard rumors , or I had
heard rumors for the last few years that this thing existed but we never
found it until we went searching for it one day and the applicant went
Isearching for it .
Emmings: I was curious about the recommendation that the developer should
Ibe required to petition for the feasibility study . What 's the significance
of that?
I Krauss: Quite a bit and it actually goes beyond this specific property .
There 's a need to build infrastructure most importantly in this case is the
sanitary sewer system that will serve a large part of the new MUSA
expansion . Virtually the entire area located south of TH 5 . That area was
I supposed to drain into a metro interceptor called the Bluff Creek
Interceptor which only exists in the figments of the imagination of the
Metropolitan Waste Control Commission. They've largely done away with that
I ever happening and when they approved our Comprehensive Plan they approved
our concept of , going back to this one of parking up a lot , of basically
putting a lift station down here with a pipe running up . Pipe running up .
' However they run it and letting everything flow by gravity down along Bluff
Creek somehow and then lifting it either up Audubon Road or what we 're
looking at right now, out Lyman to TH 101 and back into the Lake Ann
Interceptor which has the capacity to do that . That 's how we got our
I Comprehensive Plan approved. Now this system serves a large area far
beyond the Ryan proposal and we have the firm of Bonestroo looking into a
general concept plan of how sewer and water might be provided but there
I needs to be a more specific . . .study to that to say how exactly , where 's the
system -going to go . What 's it going to cost . What we 're asking Ryan to do
is petition it . Petition the study so the Council can get it kicked off
I and we 're asking them to pay their fair share towards that . Now we don 't
know what that fair share is right now but clearly there are a number of
properties beyond their site that benefit from this so the City Engineer
and City Council will have to think up some equitable way of distributing
1 it . But until that study's done , we don 't have a long term answer for how
to serve this area .
IEmmings: And you want them to initiate it for what reason?
Krauss: The usual procedure we operate in Chanhassen is that the
developer , the proponent petitions the study and assumes some of the
II financial cost .
Emmings: Alright . That sounds like a good reason to me . Park and Rec is
I talking about not accepting land in lieu of cash . Is the land that they 're
not accepting Outlot B? Is that what 's being offered? Or is that being
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 37
dedicated anyway?
Krauss: Outlot A . 1
Emmings: Or Outlot A?
Krauss: The Park Board hasn 't officially acted on it yet . All we can tell
you is what the Park and Recreation Director , Todd Hoffman's recommending
at this point . It 's his feeling that Outlot A will be protected. ,
Emmings: Is that what we 're talking about here?
Krauss: Basically . That that lot would be protected by the City in the
normal course of events . That it 's mostly floodplain or wetland anyway and
we do not normally accept that type of acreage as park . There may be some
sort of an offset for some of the trail expense because this is a trail
that 's going to be a benefit to the public as well as the residents of the
park . Long term we envision this trail of hooking into the Bluff Creek
Trail and people being able to access hopefully the new middle school site II
or Lake Ann Park . I mean lots of things . So there 's a benefit to that
and maybe some kind of an offset will be figured but the Park Board hasn 't
acted yet officially . II
Emmings: I guess that 's all I have on my comments . Let 's see , anything
else of anybody up here? Did you have any response to anything you've been
hearing? - I
Kent Carlson: Ah yeah if I could make a couple of comments in regards to
some of the things we 've discussed tonight and mention a couple of concerns II
that we have after reviewing the staff report and before we get your
hopefully preliminary approval on our project . The wetlands issue , I
appreciate everybody 's , on item number 6 . Or Lot 6. That small area
that 's been identified . I guess we 'd like to encourage us to wait and see II
what the Army Corps of Engineers come back and says. If it is, we have
additional land out in Outlot A that we could mitigate that area and work
with them there. With regards to your feasibility study for the new sewer II
system , we fully intend to pay our prorated share and we 're committed to do
that also . Jeff mentioned some concerns about Lots 10 and 11 and the
landscaping and the berming that we would do there . I think as part of the I
development agreement Paul and I have talked about incorporating the
landscaping requirements , the berming requirements in the developer 's
agreement so in the future as lots develop we have a standard to maintain .
That 's one of the nice things about going through the PUD process is that
we will develop standards that will carry through as tenants come along and
we build buildings for them or they enter into a multi-tenant building . It
creates value for the park . It creates value and it insures the existing II users in there that the balance of the park will be developed in a quality
fashion . Unfortunately these folks something happened in the process and
the berming and landscaping that was originally promised didn 't happen . We
are willing to and we have agreed to provide that assurance to the
community that that will be done . We would like to phase our landscaping
as we develop. I think we can work on some of the areas along Audubon but
some of those areas on the southern part of the property it could be very II
expensive to come through and have to do all of the landscaping and the
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 38
1
berming initially so we would like to work with you on that . As far as the
access to Outlot A . Or Lot number 1 off of Audubon . We 've shown that as a
direct access to Audubon . We spent a lot of time working on the
preliminary plan coming up with some concepts on how we can develop that
particular area , especially the area adjacent to Audubon with a higher
IIquality standard . We envision those buildings to be a little shorter in
height . The clear height within those projects would be lower . The front
of the buildings were more likely to have better image . Maybe a decorative
' block or burnish block along with perhaps some brick materials . We don't
know what those standards are going to be yet but they tend to be a little
smaller . They 're going to be projects more the high tech space if you will
Iwith the higher quality , higher percentage of office and a little higher
quality look . With that comes smaller projects and that's why you see that
cul-de-sac coming in off of ours . It develops those 4 small lots . It
leaves us that one lot up on that northeast corner that becomes a little
Ibit difficult to access . In our desire to screen and present the best
possible image to the street and to Audubon we 've kind of clustered those
four buildings so we can keep all of the loading facilities and the truck
I maneuvering areas within the backs of those buildings okay. And that
leaves us that one lot up there that we would like to put the front of the
building facing Audubon with the direct access to Audubon and then again
allowing us to screen the truck access and maneuvering areas to the backs
Iof the buildings that would be on Lots 2 and 3 . So that's kind of the
reasoning behind that . Again we 're going to go through a process with an
EAW to determine the traffic implications of our development and I think
Ithat will give us a pretty good feel of that but we 'd like to consider
that . The trail system that we 're showing , we developed these preliminary
plans before we found the big crossing underneath the railroad tracks and
Iagain I think we 're going to modify the trail system to try to incorporate
eventually joining up with the other trail systems that are in your
comprehensive guide plan and so we may lose the trail along the railroad .
We kind of provided a loop here in our preliminary plans . If we do have
Irail access to a couple of the sites in the rear of the property , it won't
make sense to have a jogging path along it . So that 's one of the things
that you may see changing over time .
IIConrad: The point is just as long as the trail goes someplace . It 's got
to be a useable trail and whether it 's here where I see it on the map or
whether it 's connecting . As long as there 's a valid place that it goes . A
purpose .
Kent Carlson: Yeah , and again we need to work with the Park and Rec
1 Department to determine what the trails would be like and things like that .
So let 's see, anything else . Well we 'd appreciate your assistance with the
landscaping too Ladd . That 'd be very nice . Along the berming and that
Iarea so we 'd be happy to work with the staff on that . So thank you .
Emmings: Thank you . Okay . You want a motion on this I guess huh? On
page 12 .
IIConrad: I make the motion that the Planning Commission approve PUD concept
plan for Chanhassen Business Center subject to the three points listed in
IIthe staff report . Is there anything else that should be included?
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 39
Emmings: I 'll second your motion and let 's open it up for discussion.
Whether anybody else feels there ought to be any additional conditions to I
approval .
Jeff Kullberg: Can I ask a question?
Emmings : Sure .
Jeff Kullberg: I heard a lot of different things being batted around like 1
the possibility of thru traffic through the development and for setting
back the buildings from 50 to 100 feet and the economic feasibility of that
and that we supposedly instead of getting berms on our side of Audubon , we I
got a walking path that will now be parallel to another one that could, if
it is going to be parallel to another path, could our path be replaced with
berms as a contingency of this development?
Emmings: You 're talking about a path that goes down along the east side of I
Audubon presently?
Jeff Kullberg: Yes . i
Emmings: There 's not envisioned one to be on the west side . That one goes
into the project . It doesn't run along Audubon . Not at least the way it 's
on the plan right now . And as far as all those other things you heard ,
whether it 's 50 feet or 100 feet or all those , all of those are open
questions at this point . We know it 's got to be at least 50 and I think ti
Jeff was suggesting that maybe it should be even more but as a practical ■
matter I don 't think that's going to happen but those are open questions
still .
Farmakes: I think the point is we 're concerned about where that abuts
your property . It is an issue the city and the developer are working to
solve .
Jeff Kullberg: How about the past misunderstanding with Joe Miller about
whether this should be berms and landscaping on our side as opposed to just I
a path that somehow got approved?
Emmings: What about it? I mean that 's got nothing to do with this plan .
Except we realize that you .
Jeff Kullberg: It directly impacts our .
Emmings: Yeah . You don't have screening on your side and we're trying to
take care of it on the other side but we can 't go back and do anything
about that at this point . I 'll tell you , we 'll just finish our work up
here . Now we've got a motion and it's been seconded . Is there any
discussion on the motion or any further conditions anyone wants to add?
Erhart: Did you have some in mind? 1
Emmings: No , I don 't . Do you?
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 40
Conrad: I didn 't have any . I think again this is a concept type thing
and I think that 's what we 're approving generally here the concept of what
Ithey 're trying but we 're not very specific yet . It 's still up to the
applicant to come in here with a specific recommendations and absolutes and
then we 'll be maybe a little bit more critical but right now the applicant .
I is saying hey . Here 's a concept . What do you think . That 's what we 're
giving him feedback on. Trying to give him a flavor for the things that we
care about and the things that maybe aren 't so important but at this point
in time I think the conditions in the staff report are just fine .
Ann Kullberg: What are the conditions?
I Conrad: That 's a good question. We keep you in the dark so you think
we 're smart .
Emmings: These things are available . I 'll read them to you. Number one
is the applicant prepare an Environmental Assessment Worksheet for the
project to be reviewed with a formal PUD request . They have to petition
I the City to undertake a feasibility study and providing services to the
site . The third one is , prepare a formal PUD submittal responding to
issues raised in this report as well as all of them that had been raised at
the Planning Commission and City Council meetings while working with staff
I on the plan development . And I tell you , you can wear yourself out
thinking about this hypothetically . When they come back next time it 's
going to be hopefully a whole lot more specific and you 're going to get
Iable to get your teeth into it a little better and so are we . Right now
we 're looking at it as a very conceptual mattes .
I Conrad: On the other hand, yeah as long as you say that I think we 've
given the applicant sort of a green light to say that the National Weather
Service should be in the southeast corner .
IEmmings: Yeah . Well .
Conrad: That 's the kind of things that we 're saying subtley because we
I haven 't really complained about it . We 're saying hey , that 's not a bad
place for that .
Emmings: And I think they 've heard your concerns and our desire that they
I
be sensitive to your concerns . So I think you'll see in their plans that
they 'll take you into account . Alright , I 'm going to call the question on
the motion .
IConrad moved, Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of the PUD Concept Plan for Chanhassen Business Center subject to
Ithe following conditions:
1 . Prepare an Environmental Assessment Worksheet for the project to be
reviewed with formal PUD request .
I2 . Petition the City to undertake a feasibility study on providing
services to the site .
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 41
3 . Prepare a formal PUD submittal responding to issues raised in this
report , as well as those raised at Planning Commission and City Council
meetings, while working with staff on the plan development .
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING AND SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTIONS REGARDING
LANDSCAPING AND TREE PRESERVATION REQUIREMENTS.
Chairman Emmings waived the staff report on this item . I
Emmings: There was just one thing I wanted to look at but otherwise it
looks like they 've taken everything into account.
Conrad: It looked that way to me but I 'm surprised Dick Wing left .
Farmakes: I had one question on this whole thing . '
Emmings: There was one issue that came up that we argued about quite a
bit .
Farmakes: I just wondered if when the ETA for the list of trees is .
Olsen: We did have the DNR forester look it over and he said it's fine . He 1
said it 's got the typical trees that most other cities have . We also sent
a copy to the Halla Nursery . We haven't heard any response back from them .
So right now we 're not really going to be changing the list but maybe
organize them the way you were discussing with the hardwoods .
Farmakes: Did the DNR have any recommendations as to what would be
compatible with their study that they did or what 's presently in
Chanhassen?
Olsen: We haven 't gotten that far with that . That 's more for like the
reforestation . We 're not ready to . . . I think you were going to talk about
what we discussed and.
Emmings: There was one issue that came up where we were kind of split .
Olsen: That was whether or not , I think it 's on page 4 . I
Farmakes: 2 or 3 trees .
Emmings: No . 1
Farmakes: Yeah it was conifer . Whether to have it conifer .
Emmings: Well that 's one of them .
Olsen: It was where you require the caliper inches to be replaced and if 1
they removed trees that shouldn't have been removed , like were outside of
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 42
Ithe construction area , should they have to replace those or not and it was
not clear .
IEmmings: As I remember it was the tree that had to be taken down or the
project couldn't go forward and the question was , do they have to put that
I back caliper per caliper inch or can they just put back another tree or can
they just go with what's in the landscape plan . I think Tim and I were on
one side and Ladd and everybody else was on the other and how did that get
resolved in here?
IOlsen: Well it 's in number 3 but I don 't know if that does it .
I Erhart: I don 't think it does . I came up with some words that I think
reflect what Steve , I thought Steve and I were saying. If I can throw them
out and discuss them . It kind of goes like this . Number 2 it says you
Ihave to demonstrate .
Emmings: What page? I 'm on the wrong page . Give me a page.
IErhart: 4 . Top of page 4 .
Emmings: Okay .
IErhart: It says that 6 inch trees shall be saved unless it can be
demonstrated that there is no other feasible way to develop the site . Now
II assume that means a street .
Olsen: That 's street , building pad .
1 Erhart: Or something . Okay , and then it goes onto 3 . The City will
require the replacement of 6 inch caliper or more . Trees or 6 inch caliper
or more if they are removed without approval period. In other words , they
I have to get approval to remove trees that are 6 inch or bigger on areas
that are streets or building pads . If they go beyond that , it 's not a
matter of may anymore . The city will require they be replaced .
1 Olsen: So when the site plan comes in and shows the building pad and the
driveway , we understand that we should have them show like a construction
limit . And so it would be understood what will be saved and what will not
Ibe saved .
Emmings: Well 7 kind of addresses that though too because it says trees
Idesignated for preservation that are lost due to construction shall be
replaced by new compatible trees approved by the city .
Olsen: We added that thinking that might get that .
IErhart: Are we just opening this for general?
IEmmings: Yeah sure . Nobody else is here .
Erhart: Okay . Well I didn't want to get in ahead of Ladd 's turn . 6 , 7
and 8 . Obviously we're dealing with two pages here because the same text
IIis found on page 12 .
II
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 43
Aanenson: Subdivision .
Erhart: I 'm a little concerned here that by adding 6, 7 and 8 that we 're 1
getting really hostile . It just , for example let me review this . You know
you 've got to keep in mind for example , let me go through. 6 your
requiring some kind of a device out there that delineates what 's going to
be in the tree crown or all that and there 's two issues there . One 's that
how much work , effort to put all these snow fences now or other means or
whatever it is and the other thing is, are we talking about one tree or if II
we 're talking about a wooded area , where are you going to put this thing?
If you 're talking about a heavily wooded area , what does the tree 's crown
mean when you're talking about a bunch of trees all crowded together? And 1
I 'm not trying to answer questions here . Let me get a general feeling of
this here first . The second thing is that I thought when we talked in the
last meeting about protecting trees we were talking about protecting trees
from driving equipment underneath them .
Olsen: It 's any type of vehicle.
Erhart: Will any tree die if you drive heavy equipment over it's roots 1
system? I thought it was just oak .
Krauss: Oaks are most susceptible in terms but all the trees will suffer . 1
Emmings: Birch is very susceptible to any kind of disturbance.
Erhart: Okay and again , I 'm trying to get a bfoad view of this first and 1
then get specific. Then we go on 7 and say trees that are lost , boy you 're
going to pay if you lose a tree because of construction, whether accidental II
or on purpose and I 'm going whoa . Do we really want to take that position
here? And then 8 , at the City's discretion we can make conservation
easements over what I assume to be some of the existing wooded lots and
wooded areas and I 'm going , boy that's , we're taking a big slice here .
Remember that 's still is the landowner and I think what bothers me about
this is the guy who owns this land can come in and before he applies for
the subdivision or for the , let 's see the first one is the applies for any II
subdivision or work . He can go in and cut all those trees down if he
doesn 't like this document . You can't stop them .
Emmings: And then he'll just be subject to the landscape ordinance which 1
we've got to have a certain amount of confidence in that doing an adequate
job too I guess.
Erhart: Well , but compared to cutting down an existing mature , this
landscape ordinance is peanuts . I guess maybe that's it . We 're getting to
the point here with these three items, are we going, it struck me that
we 're really getting very , very aggressive and I just am trying to ask
ourselves are we , I 'm starting to sound like Ladd here . Philosophical .
Conrad: Sounded pretty good to me . 1
Erhart: It 's getting pretty tough and I think you're automatically putting
ourselves in an adversarial role and I 'm not sure we want to do that . •
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September 4 , 1991 - Page 44
II
Krauss: When you say we 're getting more aggressive , yeah we are because we
Ifound that without that sense of aggressiveness we keep losing the battle .
Erhart: Other than the one up here and I guess I 'm trying to get a feel
Ifor it .
Krauss: No , it 's very common. There 's so many times that you have a
developer who says , well where does it say I have to put snow fence up .
I I 'll just tell the Cat driver where he's not supposed to go . Well gee ,
I went to lunch and the Cat driver just plowed down that forest . I mean it
happens all the time and the guys says well nobody ever told me . Or they
I parked their equipment dump on top of the root system . And these aren 't
totally new . We 've been putting these conditions in one shape or form on
projects lately and in fact the most recent one , the Lundgren one was where
ilwe actually when with the easements where we say , alright . If we buy the
plan . If we buy your concept that in exchange for this PUD one of the
things we 're doing is salvaging tree cover , protect it .
IErhart: No problem to negotiate that with the developer at the PUD
discussion stage . But here we're making it a potential mandate . That 's
when I , again that you can go in and that means whoever buys that , in the
Icase of a subdivision, that lot . I mean he all of a sudden, he can 't
remove his own trees .
Olsen: This is like protection during construction.
IErhart: That 's not the way I read it . It 's not the conservation easement .
Okay, I 'm hearing you on number 6, it does sound . Okay , I understand now .
IMaybe it does make good sense . You 've got a mature woods , to go and before
they start constructionto mark it off .
IEmmings: I think we 've done that on several projects .
Krauss: Yeah , that 's not uncommon. We 've added it . It hasn 't been in the
ordinance . It's been a condition of approval as have 7 in one way , shape
IIor form but we 've never had it really laid out as to what the compensation
was .
IOlsen: What you had to replace or if you had to replace .
Krauss: Exactly . Now on 8 the conservation easements , we've only done
this once and that 's on the Lundgren one where we didn 't pick an individual
II
basswood in the middle of the lot and say that 's where we 're going to
protect . The line was drawn around where the significant massings were and
there are a number of other trees on the property that are outside the
Iconstrains of that easement and what the homeowner could choose to do what
the homeowner chooses to do with those but the trees that you bought as
part of the protection or part of the environmental package when you bought
Ithe subdivision , the bulk of those trees , the significant stand , I
guess I 'm of the opinion that those should be protected.
Erhart: Well let 's just take one at a time . 7 . I 'm okay with 6 . I 'm not
Isure it reads clear but okay we 've got . . .shall be replaced by compatible
trees approved by the city . The city will require the developer to replace
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 45
these trees with the largest comparable trees that are commercially
available . . , as opposed to our previous rules that they have to replace
them on a caliper per claiper basis . Why the change?
Krauss: It 's a different orientation I guess and when you replace on
caliper per caliper you can replace a 30 inch oak tree with 15-2 1/2 inch
right and they 're pretty cheap. I think this is something that the
developer has pledged to save that they blew . They blew their commitment
to you and lost . I don't know, this was kind of Jo Ann and I kind of
thought this up . I don't know , I 've never seen this language before but it II
made sense to us to tell the guy you've got , if you wreck the maple, you 've
got to go out and buy the largest maple you can buy and have Halla come in
with his tree spade and replace it .
Erhart: I mean that sounds good but as the tree gets bigger , the
probability of it lasting , living gets quite diminished.
Krauss: Except we would accept professional advice . I mean we don 't have
the tree spade and if they could have their landscaper tell us what they
felt and we would weigh that . But what we have seen is we have seen
ordinances that have punitive damages . They said for every inch of tree
you lose you owe us $100 .00 and we looked at that and said well that may
satisfy your need for vengence but what does it get you?
Erhart: That 's what I was thinking was I don 't mind this . It just would
seem to me moving large trees , in the first place the language here is kind I
of who 's to say what the largest comparable trees that are commercially
available as mentioned here whereas if you used the terminology replace on
a caliper per caliper basis like we previously used , it just seems more
easy to apply . I think a higher success with trees .
Farmakes: I 'm not a landscaper . I couldn 't give you a survivability rate .
I know that they , I 've seen some awfully big trees put down in commercial
developments for office buildings and they're still there . I assume Halla
or somebody has information for us on that .
Krauss: The thing we found a lot of times too is you really have to depend I
on some advice that's given by a landscape professional . A lot of times it
depends on what was the soil condition that the tree was grown in and what
are you transplanting it into . Are they comparable . Will the tree fit the
space . The guys who do this work , the Halla 's, the Beaver Bros . , Otten, I
mean I 've met them out on the site any number of times and they 're pretty
good at telling you what they think is going to survive .
Erhart: Okay . Well maybe it gets down to . . .who 's going to decide what the
largest comparable trees that are commercially available for
transportation? Are you going to get us into an argument with the guy?
Krauss: Well anything , it 's always possible . I mean ultimately.
Erhart: We 're trying to make your life as easy as possible .
Krauss: Well that 's true and I appreciate that because ultimately it 's my ,
call whether I think they 're telling the truth or not or what I 'm willing
I
I
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 46
1
to accept . Now if I 'm arbitrary , they always have the right to appeal to
' the City Council saying that the Planning Director 's jerking me around . So
there 's always that fallback but it 's a new approach Tim . I can 't tell
you , I can 't cite somebody else doing it this way but it seemed to make
more sense to us than the dollar cost .
IErhart: No , I agree with the dollar cost . I would just suggest that the
caliper per caliper , while it certainly isn't going to get you a 30 foot
1 tree , or 30 inch diameter tree , it 's very easy to administer . If the
tree 's gone and it 's 30 inches and you put 15 2 inch trees or 7 1/2 3 inch
trees .
1 Krauss: It 's easier .
Erhart: So at that point it 's how you administer it . You have to do that .
1 Hopefully with 6 that we would prevent that . Anybody else have any
comments on that?
Conrad: I like them .
Erhart: Just the way it is?
IConrad: I like 6 and 8 . The only thing I picked up on 7 was exactly what
you 've been talking about . I didn 't know if that was the right way to go
and I guess Paul feels one way and you feel another .
1 Erhart : I hate to get into a situation where the staff gets in a position
where we just set up the ordinance where it 's going to lead to an argument .
' I 'd like to try to avoid that .
Conrad: Well it sort of opens it up but isn't that arbitrary anyway . You
can have some lousy oak trees that are out there that are not necessarily
an asset . Sometimes we treat everything as perfect , of great value but
this seems to , well it 's not an absolute and obviously that puts more
pressure on staff and more disagreements , you 're right .
1 Erhart: What might be a lousy oak to someone might be a beautiful oak to
the next guy .
IIConrad: Yeah . The fact that it 's replaced is important to me .
Emmings: My oaks depend on the season . I like them in the spring and the
1 fall I wish I could blow them up . They drop acorns on my deck and keep me
awake all night and I have to rake up the leaves but also at my house they
put my foundation within 6 feet of a oak tree you can 't get your arms
around . It 's been there 9 years now .
Conrad: Boy , that 's unusual . I 've seen so many trees go .
1 Emmings: And I 've got another one that 's not very far away . Well yeah ,
I kind of expected it not to survive but it did.
1 Erhart: My understanding was that it was compression of the soil on the
roots .
1
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 47
Emmings: Well they drove the Caterpillers all around the roots of all
those oak trees out there and it didn't really seem to do any damage at all II
so it makes you wonder but you don't want to take that chance. I think 3
and 6 and 8 are fine . 7 is the one I had reservations on too . 6 I didn't
mind because we 've done it before . 8 we just tried out but I think it 's a
good idea or it 's appropriate . I
Erhart: Steve , on 3 again . Did I hear it the way it is or the way I read
it? ,
Emmings: Okay now read it again to me .
Erhart: Well again I thought you and I , I thought we kind of had agreed 1
last time to state if they 're putting a street and we approve the removal
of a tree because it 's on a house pad or a street , that we aren't going to
go back and make that guy replace those trees .
Emmings: Yeah , I think that's what you and I said . I guess here they
changed it so basically now they might do it on a caliper per caliper inch II
but at a minimum they 're going to have to replace it and I can live with
this . But I still , because I think more people felt the other way . That
they should have to do it on a caliper per caliper and I thought this was
kind of a compromise and it 's alright with me . But basically I don't see
any reason to make them replace trees they have to take down . I would hope
they 'd do the minimum . I suppose the other side to this though is if
you 've got a site witha lot of trees , it 's not so much of a problem . If
you 've got a site where the only trees they 're taking down because they
have to , then you'll want to do more and maybe this gives them that
flexibility .
Erhart: Then the other one I had was , again maybe I misunderstood but I
thought we were , if the guy had , if the developer .
Emmings: On which page?
Erhart: On page 10. Section 18-61 where we 're talking about putting 3
trees in on lots . I thought we had concluded at the end of the meeting
that if the guy had 3 trees that met the specifications in terms of size ,
type and location , that he wouldn't have to put in 3 new ones . It comes
out now that he can do 2 but he 's still required to put in.
Krauss: We couldn 't figure out exactly what you wanted because some of the
comments were allow 2 of them to be waived but not the third. Some were
waive all 3 .
Olsen: You switched at the last minute. Then you, somebody brought up an I
example where what if the trees were all 5O0 feet back or something and
then I don't know. So it was hard to tell so whatever you want. We
couldn't remember .
Emmings: I can't remember either .
Conrad: I think we all said no . No , we probably didn't have consensus . I II
now what I said .
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 48
I
Emmings: I don 't think so . Well wait a minute , maybe that 's a different .
I 'm not sure .
Conrad: I 'm surprised we didn 't do that . In my mind it was clear that all
three can be waived to the two .
Emmings: As long as they 've got one in the front yard .
I Conrad: As long as they met the standards that we had set , yeah . Then all
three could be waived .
' Emmings: Well it makes sense . I don't remember what the issue was but it
sure sounds like it makes sense .
Conrad: Well it 's real consistent with what we 're trying to do .
IKrauss: We weren't sure where you'd stick the tree . I mean if they had
trees all over the place .
Emmings: But if existing trees met the .
' Conrad: Then we don 't care.
Emmings: If they 're 3 and 1 in the front yard is deciduous , why would we
make them plant more trees?
IIOlsen: Just say this requirement can be waived for all three trees? All
of the required trees?
IConrad: Yeah.
' Emmings: So long as it meets the standards ,of the ordinance .
Erhart: The other thing that we were going to clarify there and it was
suggested by Don Halla that when we say deciduous trees it must be at least
I 2 1/2 inches . I think don't we have to state like we previously said at
some height?
IKrauss: Measured at 4 feet above the ground.
Emmings: It says and 4 feet above the ground . It should really say .
IErhart: But not in that paragraph it doesn 't .
Emmings: Yeah it does . It 's right down there . Third line from the
Ibottom . Third and second line from the bottom .
Erhart: Up on the fourth line from the top it says conifer trees must be
Iat least 6 feet high and deciduous trees must be at least 2 1/2 inches in
diameter at the time of the installation .
Olsen: That kind of slipped. We should have the 4 feet above the ground.
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 49
Erhart: Yeah , right up here on line 6 or 7 . ,
Emmings: Do you measure a 6 foot tree 4 feet above the ground? You can't
do that?
Krauss: What you 're talking about is a deciduous tree .
Olsen: That 's switched around . ,
Krauss: We 're talking about a deciduous tree . The coniferous is just
above the root ball .
Emmings: Okay . So 2 1/2 inches in diameter measured at 4 feet high .
Erhart: I think that 's all I had . Just let me ask . We're saying then ,
that under the subdivision ordinance that we as a city can go in and at our
discretion and demand conservation easements to protect designated tree
preservation areas . Therefore , when the guy buys that lot and builds a
house and moves on it , •he can't go in and what?
Krauss: He 's going to know what the buildable area on that lot truly is
and we hopefully will avoid the situation where somebody comes to us and
says I 'll save every tree I don't have to cut down to put this house that
I decided I wanted on this property . The easement will force whoever buys I
the property to design the house appropriate fur the lot .
Emmings: I think Tim 's asking the next question . Now I 'm the owner and
I live on that lot . Can I cut down a tree in there for firewood? Can I
plant a tree in there? Can I mow in there? What does the conservation
easement mean?
Krauss: That 's a good point . I guess we don 't have boilerplate language II
for that easement yet as to what . I guess I can only say what I 'm going
to, what I think is that we never intended it to restrain a property owner I
from normal decisions or maintenance of their property in the future . But
I would have a problem with clearcutting that stand of trees and that 's why
that easement stands there . I mean if somebody wanted to do maintenance ,
you know tree removal for healthy trees .
Emmings: What if I wanted a tennis court and that 's where I want it .
Krauss: No. '
Emmings: Well that 's going too far as far as I 'm concerned .
Conrad: That 's going too far?
Emmings: Yeah . That's going further than I 'm willing to go. '
Erhart: Yeah , let me try to explain where I think Steve and I are coming
from. I don 't care if the developer and the city get together and say , we II
both want to do this and you create a conservation easement . The problem I
have with it is when we have the arbitrary ability on a , when a developer
comes in and says I 'm developing lots and we go in and say we 're going to
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 50
II put a conservation easement there . And as a result the guy who buys that
lot now has restricted what he can do with his trees . I 'm not sure we want
to do that .
IKrauss: In that respect though is it any different than what we do with
wetlands? We take drainage easements over them .
IEmmings: I don 't think it 's the same kind of resource . To me it isn't . A
wetland , I can 't fill in a wetland . Filling in a wetland seems like
something that 's much more significant than cutting down a tree . I can cut
II
down a tree and plant another tree somewhere else and it will grow . I feel
comfortable with that and I don 't think that people are, I don't think that
individual owners are going to clear cut their own property just for the
Ijoy of it or anything else . I think most people like trees . I don't think
it 's going to be that problem. Developers don 't like trees but I think
homeowners do .
IDick Wing: One comment from a phone call today from Bluff Creek . . .
ordinances that prevented their neighbor from clear cutting their lot and
selling off the oak trees? She said they had beautiful stands of oak
Itrees . . .neighbors by their right sold the timber . Came in with a
bulldozer , stripped out all these 100 year old oak trees , piles them up in
cords and hauled them away . . .
IEmmings: Not where they 've got their homes though. Do they have their
home there? I don 't know . But if I own a bunch of trees , I don 't see that
' anybody should be telling me I can 't cut them and sell them for wood.
That 's taking away something that , more trees can be planted there and more
trees will grow . It does take 100 years but that 's a blink . That doesn 't
really bother me . This has gone on a whole lot further because I 've got
Iright now I live on a lot where I can 't grow a damn flower because I 've got
so much shade . You 're going to tell me I can 't cut down a tree on my lot
to make a sunny garden so I can grow vegetables?
' Krauss: No but .
Emmings: But that 's what I worry about . Or that I can't take down 5 big
IItrees to put in a tennis court if I 've got the room for it and I want one .
Krauss: Where that comes into play and the only time we 've done it so far
IIis on the Lundgren proposal and that does mean if you buy Lot 12 , that your
house is going to have to be on the southern 2/3 of the property because
the northern 2/3 is covered by a conservation easement .
IEmmings: Right but that 's a little different because there you 've got it
bordering a wetland . There 's another rationale for having that be a
conservation easement I think and there 's other parts of the property but
IIif you just say no trees on this guy 's property , he can 't cut down his
trees on his property .
' Krauss: No , no . The idea is to , these areas would only be designated
where there is significant stands of trees that , depending on how the
development is laid out , makes sense to protect . As I pointed out earlier ,
' the Lundgren property has dozens and dozens and dozens of trees that are
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 51
not protected by these conservation easements and it 's up to the individual I
to elect to do whatever they want to do with those .
Emmings: Right . But I want to be careful that , you know I think we can
easily go nuts here . I mean I 've got those old oak trees , old ash trees
and old maple trees and I just really, I cut down three to build my house .
I didn 't cut down any more than I had to and I risked that oak that was II close and all that but still I sure as hell don't want the City telling me
that if I want to take down a tree there , that I can 't and I think you
might call that a significant stand of trees . I don't know. They 're huge.
Erhart: And I see this as a difference between the Lundgren thing is that
we negotiated with the developer . I mean he could have basically said no
way . I 'll negotiate something else but that , no way . And what we 're 1
saying here is that we don't give that option to the developer anymore here
by putting number 8 in .
Conrad: I don 't see that at all . That 's just a tool . And it comes to us I
and we decide whether we want that . It 's not Paul making up something .
This Planning Commission , City Council has the , we don't need it . It's I
just a way to protect a stand of trees that we think is important for the
subdivision.
Emmings: From the developer for sure and maybe ultimately from homeowners. '
Conrad: Probably from the homeowners too .
Krauss: But what are you buying? You know we 've just had too many ,
instances where you manuever a road , you move things around to save trees .
You massage everything . There 's added costs . There 's added design
constraints . You think you know what you 're buying and then blam-o ,
somebody wants to put a hog house on the thing and because they want a 3
car garage and they insist that it be on this side of the house , everything
goes . ,
Olsen: Yeah and that happens , specifically with Vineland where we went to
extra . The Planning Commission and the Council added extra conditions to
preserve some significant trees and they 're gone because they weren 't , they
moved the street and now they were just on a lot and that 's exactly what
Paul just said . They 're gone now .
Emmings: It 's a tough issue but I think we 're getting real close to
infringing on some very personal rights here . I buy the lot. I buy the
trees . They 're my trees . The chances are I 'm not going to touch them
because they add value and aesthetics to my lot but if I think a tennis
court is better , don 't tell me I can 't have one . That doesn 't seem right
to me . It doesn 't seem fair to me . I don 't know. It 's hard. I don't
know where you 'd draw the line . I 'm real concerned about protecting the
trees from developers because I know they view them as just a problem but
I 'm not so concerned about protecting them from homeowners . We require 3
trees here . I propose another way to look at it . Here we require 3 trees II
and we 're building in a cornfield and the developer puts in 3 trees and
some guys comes in and buys it and says I don't like trees and just cuts
those 3 trees down . ,
IPlanning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 52
IIKrauss: They 're within their rights to do that . That 's not protected by
the easement . Most trees on a person 's lot wouldn 't normally be protected .
IEmmings: Right . And I don 't like that .
Erhart: This conservation easement wouldn 't prohibit the lot owner from
IIcutting trees in that easement maybe?
Krauss: In the easement it would but having gone through the Lundgren
thing , I mean you look at where these easements are appropriate .
Olsen: It 's such a unique situation .
I Krauss: It 's relatively unique situations . Unique stands of trees
situated in different areas . I don 't have numbers for you but a very
signficant percentage of the trees in the Lundgren property aren 't in those
I easements because they didn 't warrant being in there . I suppose if we were
to carry it to absurd lengths we would have drawn little circles around
individual trees on individual lots which would have made them unbuildable .
IEmmings: Yeah . No , I think what we did there was just fine . I have no
problem with what was done on the Lundgren proposal . It seems perfectly
appropriate .
IOlsen: That 's just all we 're proposing to do is take it one step further
and to preserve them .
IEmmings: I guess the one that scares me is where the conservation eaesment
covers the entire lot .
IKrauss: We can't do that . I mean you 're not creating a buildable lot .
Emmings: Right .
IConrad: I just don 't see it as a problem to tell you the truth. I
understand what you 're doing and I don 't want anybody telling me what I do
Iwith my trees and I 've got quite a few . If I want to take them down , I 'm
going to . But in this particular case we 're talking about the exception .
We're talking about a significant stand of trees . We 're talking about
somebody who hasn't bought the property yet . Period . They haven 't bought
Iit . They 're buying it knowing there 's an easement on it and they can 't
touch it .
Emmings: That 's a difference .
Conrad: Yes . You know we made a decision here that those are significant
' trees , just like a wetland is . I guess I differ a little bit with you
Steve but I think a 100 year old oak , that doesn 't grow up . It takes 100
years to grow back up and there 's a good chance it 's not going to make it .
The thing 's been around here twice as long as we have and there 's some
I value to that . Some of you younger people . But again , I just think this
is a tool that we probably aren 't going to use very often and that . . .we do
have total control over it and I don 't know . I think it 's probably a valid
II tool .
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 53
Emmings: I 'm not opposed to it . I agree and I 'm not arguing against it .
I 'm arguing against it going too far . This thing could .
Conrad: That 's where Tim is too and I guess . 111
Erhart: I could see it being applied where everything outside the building
what do you call it?
Emmings: Footprint .
Erhart: Footprint is put into a conservation easement . Paul might not do
that but his successor might .
Olsen: But you have the final say .
Emmings: Yeah . 1
Conrad: You're going to be here for a long time .
Erhart: Hopefully not more than 5 or 10 minutes . 1
Emmings: Dick , have you got any more comments on this? This is your baby
in a lot of ways . Anything you want to say or , we 've made a lot of changes II
to the planting . You 've got your 3 trees in there . We 've got 2 deciduous
and 1 coniferous .
Dick Wing: My comments would be my own personal opinions at the Council 1
level as far as I sort of establish how . . .I don 't want to interfere with
your meeting . I don't think it 's appropriate .
Emmings: Okay , you don 't want to tell us.
Dick Wing: Oh I 'd be happy to . I guess on page 2 it talks about wanting II
create a boulevard effect . . .I want to carry that over to page 10 . So my
comments to Council would be that I don 't like pine trees. I like shade
trees so I would have 3 trees . 2 of the trees shall be shade trees and
then I would change the wording 1 may be a pine tree so you 've got an
option . Then irrespective of the number of trees , my idea were to
primarily protect the non-wooded lot . The wooded lot I don't think it
pertain to front and back yard . This doesn 't bother me . . .but I do want to
follow through . . .back part of the lot is wooded . I still want to require
two trees so my wording would be , three trees , one may be a pine tree and
one may be waived if there 's. . .trees on the lot but I still want to require 1
2 trees in the front yard so irrespective we have this boulevard effect . . .
Emmings: There was some question about whether you can get the boulevard II effect . If you 're planting off the city easement , wasn't there? Was the
City Engineer going to look at this for us? Didn't we talk about that
somewhere?
Conrad: Yeah. 1
•
1
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I Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 54
IEmmings: We had some discussion about the fact that it used to be , or at
least where I grew up where we had real sidewalks and then everybody
planted trees on the boulevard, between the sidewalk and the street and
I everybody had elms and you had this real nice canopy effect but now I think
they 're going to be planting these trees , the city wants them back beyo-nd
the street easement .
Dick Wing: That 's true Steve . Any neighborhood in the city and just the
fact that the trees are . . .corners or up by the house , you 're still creating
a wooded effect on that street . So you can have a mile long street with no
trees in the front , . . . like the Sunrise Hills Addition . . . So I like the 3
trees and I 'm glad there 's support . I choose not to . . .and I 'm still in
favor of the 2 trees in the front yard . . . Now the other thing , if it 's a
Iwooded lot like your house or my house . . .
Emmings: Okay . We 're not too far apart .
' Farmakes: Isn 't there a reason that they may want a pine tree? Didn 't we
talk about that? Didn 't they say pine trees were beneficial . . .
IEmmings: I think it was primarily because of winter .
Erhart: We 've kind of gone through all this discussion . I hate to start
11 this all over again .
Emmings : Let 's let the City Council do it .
IIErhart: If Dick had something that we had missed then obviously we would
have liked to have covered that .
II Conrad: It 's probably worthwhile . Dick 's the advocate and he 's going to
be steering the bulk of that meeting and the reason we went with a pine
tree or an evergreen , seriously you get 6 months here Dick where we ain't
1 got any leaves .
Emmings: I suggested we had 2 shade trees and then one , the third one be
Ieither an evergreen or an ornamental to give people like you a choice .
Erhart: I still like your idea where we had two classes of hardwood trees
and then one of them had to be .
IIEmmings: That was originally your idea I think .
Erhart: You were the guy pushing it the last time . Did we abandon that
idea?
Emmings: I think the list are still being developed .
Olsen: Yeah we haven't split it down into catagories but I think we got
the impression that it wasn 't going to be split in to hardwood , softwood .
Did you still want that?
Emmings: Oh yeah .
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 55
Erhart: The idea was on the two required hardwood trees , that one of them
would have to be from the expensive list .
Olsen: The hardwood and then a softwood? I
Erhart: Well the softwood , they 're all the same .
Olsen: Right . i
Aanenson: We went the whole gammet . We had medium , hard and soft and then I
we decided to go to just the hard and just the soft woods .
Erhart: Let me rephrase it . Evergreen trees , no matter what species they
are , they 're the same price for the same size tree , plus or minus 10% . 11 Hardwoods though are significantly different depending on whether it's for
example an ash or a red oak . Significantly different . It 's significantly
different what you get in the end and the idea was that on true hardwoods
that one of them would have to be , so we get some valuable trees and yet we
have diversity , one of them would have to be from the more desireable list
which would be red oak , sugar maple . I tell you that list wouldn't be more •
than 3 or 4 .
Olsen: But isn't an as a soft or medium? We 'll look into that .
Erhart: The issue is value I think . Whether it 's hard or soft . I
Olsen: I think that that really splits the value though too . '
Emmings: Will those lists come back to us?
Olsen: Yeah . I
Emmings: Okay, let 's do that another time then.
Erhart: We 're going to get this back again? 1
Emmings: No , but the lists .
Erhart: In order to implement the two value trees , that has to be written
into this ordinance .
Emmings: Yeah it does .
Olsen: You don 't need to do value . 1
Erhart: No , you have to pick from two lists . We 'll have to sit down with
the list and see which goes into which . . .and I 'll be honest with you , I
think the list for the high value trees should only include essentially red II
oak and sugar maple .
Emmings: How about a walnut or hackberry? I
Conrad: A white oak isn 't a valuable tree?
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 56
Erhart: It 's a valuable tree . It 's not a tree you 'd want to plant . Trust
me .
IIConrad: Why not?
Erhart: First of all you can 't tree spade the burr oak or white oak . And
they 're slow growing and they 're not as nice a tree as the red oak .
Emmings: Is the red oak more susceptible to oak wilt?
1 Erhart : A little bit . Little bit but you can move it with a tree spade
and you . . .you can't do that with a burr oak . You can't do it with a white
oak . They 've got real big tap roots and you just cannot move it . Well
1 anyway , it 's stretching out . I thought it was a good idea . In order to
implement it it has to be written into the ordinance .
1 Emmings: Well then what are we saying? Either we table it or we revise
that section when we get the list .
Conrad: Gee , I trust staff to implement that without us seeing it again .
1 Emmings : Then we don 't have to say it in here?
1 Aanenson: You don 't feel comfortable that the City will provide a list of
species covering that?
Olsen: Even if it says the list would have to be , on page 10 it 'd say it
have to be from one column or another . Maybe we should bring that back
with a list and revise that .
Emmings: Let 's get it onto the City Council . I think we ought to and then
if we feel we have to change something , we can change it at some point .
' Erhart : Okay , do we want them to add the two classes of trees between now
and the time it gets to the City Council?
Conrad: Yeah .
' Emmings: Well tell us specifically what it would say .
1 Erhart: It would say of the two required deciduous trees , at least one of
those would have to be from the , let 's call it Class A list attached to
this ordinance or a part of this ordinance . That 's it . And then we 've got
' to develop the two lists .
Emmings: Alright .
1 Erhart: Does that seem reasonable to you Dick? Because I 'll tell you
what 's going to happen? They 'll plant all kinds of green ash , silver
maple .
IIEmmings: So give them one short list and they can basically pick the other
tree they want .
1
1
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 57
Erhart: Right . That way you 'll get a variety plus we 'll get some of the i
trees we want .
Emmings: And the only thing that will be off the list are things like , we
won 't have box elders and stuff like that . Chinese elm . Okay , is there a
motion? Sure there is .
Erhart: Okay yes . I 'll move , what page is the motion? I 'll move that '
the Planning Commission recommends adoption , recommends approval of the
Landscape Ordinance as shown in Attachment #1 as the ordinance with two
changes . One change regarding filling of the requirement for the three
trees in the subdivision ordinance that was discussed here . And number two
is that we'll add verbage that will require that one of the decidious trees
to be from a premium list that 's developed and included with this
ordinance .
Conrad: I second the motion. I
Erhart moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of Landscape Ordinance as shown in Attachment #1 with the
following changes
1 . The filling of the requirement of the three trees in the subdivision
ordinance . y I
2 . Adding verbage stating that of the two required deciduous trees, at
least one of those would have to be from a premium list that 's
developed and attached to the ordinance .
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Emmings: We didn't close the public hearing .
Erhart: I 'll move to close the public hearing . 1
Conrad: We didn 't open the public hearing.
Krauss: I think you held the public hearing a long time ago . I
Emmings: Okay . Lucky we 've got a referee out here.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: The Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated II
August 21 , 1991 were so noted .
CITY COUNCIL UPDATE: 1
Emmings: We 've got Tim thanking us for some toys . Report from the
Director . It was stimulating as always . Is there anything in particular II
you 'd like to talk to us about? We've all read it and studied it .
Krauss: No . I
Emmings: Anybody want to talk about anything on there? I thank you for
it . We 'd yell if it wasn 't there .
1
IIPlanning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 58
IConrad: Just a quick comment . It doesn 't seem like the $750 .00 is very
much . If the intent is to cover staff time . There 's no way you can do it
for $750 .00 so I guess being competitive is what the issue is . Is that the
II issue?
Krauss: There 's a desire to defray more of the cost but not all of it .
IITraditionally communities have basically eaten the cost . I mean you
process a 300 lot subdivision and charge the guy $150 .00 when it took a
month and a half of staff time . Some communities try and defray all of the
Icosts , particularly those that use consultant with escrow accounts and it
gets kind of cumbersome . Most communities we 've found are trying to make
the developer bare a larger burden of the cost but not all of it and that 's
the approach that we took . We 're going to get a lot more fees out of Ryan
Ias they proceed with this . They're going to come back in when they come
back in for their permanent approval , they 're going to come in with a
subdivision . That is $500 .00 plus a per lot charge . Each site that they
Ibring in is going to have a site plan approval and that's a fixed fee plus
a dollar amount per square foot . So we should be generating significantly
more fees than we have in the past . No , it 's not going to cover all our
expenses but more than it did .
Emmings: I thought it was kind of interesting on this Halla thing . The
problems we 're having with them out there and we 're also asking them to
11 help us develop our list of trees . It 's kind of fun .
Farmakes: It doesn 't hurt their line of work at all .
IIEmmings: Well no . Exactly . Especially if we 're going with high end trees
because they 're about as expensive I think as . Moon Valley . Next time
Paul you said there 's not a lot for our next agenda .
IKrauss: We have no applications for the next agenda . We 've been talking
to a few people . We may have some the following one .
Emmings: How about the non-conforming beachlot thing?
IKrauss: We 're putting that onto the Council for discussion purposes on
Monday just to see if they 'll buy into the strategy that was laid out .
Before going through to bringing it formally back to you though , we wanted
to go and sit down with the homeowners associations on one on one basis so
Iwe can lay out what we 're probably going to be doing or what you 're
probably going to be doing and we can start the discussion on what we think
is grandfathered and what they think is grandfathered . That was the
process that we laid out . That we were going to meet with them first and
then bring it back to you . Kathy is working on , she 's going to be doing a
quick review of what 's out there today and we 'll be starting those meetings
what? Probably in the next 2 to 3 weeks I would guess .
Aanenson: What we 're going to try to do is answer a lot of their questions
outside of this arena so they understand the process .
Emmings: Okay , as part of this I 'd request that we get this business of
mooring boats straightened out from Chapter 6 of the ordinance at the same
11 time .
I
I
Planning Commission Meeting
September 4 , 1991 - Page 59
Krauss: I wrote up a memo to the Council on this matter . Councilman Wing"
asked that it be brought to them anyway . In there I did mention that
that 's been an issue that 's been raised .
Emmings: Because I think it 's not as complicated as when we were talking
earlier . There is a provision that says no watercraft shall be moored ,
docked or stored overnight on any lakeshore site and then unless the
watercraft is either , and then number 1 says , it 's currently registered in
the name of the owner of a lakeshore site . All you have to do is change
that , the lakeshore site in front of which it 's moored because the
lakeshore site is defined as the land there . Or we could put it , it 's got
to be within the dock setback zone in front of the property of the person
who owns the boat . I don 't think it will be as hard . There 's at least tw
ways you can go there to get that defined . The problem that came up is
somebody 's got a boat moored in front of somebody else 's house and we 've
got no restriction against that right now . It doesn't quite address it soll
if that can get cleared up .
Conrad: Moored in front of somebody else 's house?
Emmings: It 's moored in front of somebody else 's house .
Conrad: Without their permission? 'v . ..
Emmings: Yeah . And apparently it 's not , it 's close to be wrong . It 's
clearly wrong if you read the intent but we don't have a specific provisio'
against it and we 've got to because that 's the kind of thing that can start
a war .
Conrad: Boy , I 'd sink the boat.
Emmings: Right . All I ask is that you please call me to help you . Well
then it doesn 't look like we 'll have a meeting next time? Or does that
remain to be seen . Nothing you can get ready for us?
Krauss: I don't think so but why don't I touch base with my staff tomorro'
and Friday . I 'll give you a call and then we 'll get notice out .
Emmings: And then let 's get an attendance record distributed with the nex"
packet .
Erhart: Before you got here we passed a rule that if you 're not here by II
7:30 , you don 't count . Your attendance doesn't count .
Emmings: Yeah, mark Ladd down for a late.
Conrad moved, Erhart seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:10 p.m. .
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim 1
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 41
Lash: Yes .
Andrews: From reading Eden Prairie 's letter about their lack of success of
I having a horse trail in the vicinity of other trails , it sounds like it 's
something that everybody 's going to push for but it will be real tough to
make it work .
I Schroers: I guess I have some experience on that from building and using
trails a great deal . Horses are not all that compatible with other uses of
trails . I guess if there 's enough respect and use to warrant it , I would
I sure opt for a small trail on the side for horses rather than , if you go to
plan a day for a bike ride or a run or walk or whatever and you 're tripping
over those horse prints all the time .
IAndrews: And other horse , what horses do too.
Schroers: But actually the worst thing is what the horses do to the
I surface of the trail . They really muck it up and tear it up and loosen it
up and it makes an undesireable surface for other things .
I Lash: It was the horse people that brought this whole thing to our
attention you know so I know this is going to be .
' Schroers: A controversial issue for sure .
Hoffman: We were informed of it prior to their bringing it to our
attention but they were the first group in the door to rally support .
' Schroers: I think along a portion of the Luce Line they address that issue
but the railroad right-of-way is wide enough to allow both a decent like 8
I or 10 foot wide aggregate type path for walking , running , bicycling ,
whatever with enough room adjacent to that for a horse trail . We may check
with the City of Orono or Minnetrista in regards to their process leading
up to the decision because at one point in time it was just everyone use
I the trail and then all of a sudden there was a separate horse trail . So
there were controversies and problems with having everything on the same
trail .
Andrews moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:59 p.m. .
ISubmitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Coordinator
IPrepared by Nann Opheim
1
1
i
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 40
Council , things like that . In talking with. . .we're trying to gather more
• information on that . . . Really anybody , we're going to try to keep with I
more the parents. It seems like if you 're having high school supervision
it can get out of hand sometimes too but that remains to be seen . We are
trying to get this initial Teen Night Out to be a very successful . . .so we I
can build a successful program throughout the school year .
Schroers: Very good. Any comments on anything that Jerry 's gone through
here? '
Robinson: What was the question?
Lash: I was interested in one of them for my daughter .
Hoffman: It may be a good time just to go ahead and bounce that off .
We 're somewhat unique in all the Park and Recreation registrations are
handled through our front desk and then we make use of that pool for our
support staff and many Park and Recreation agencies have their own
registration clerk type secretary and we just feel our current arrangement II
serves very well for our department and foresee continuing to use that type •
of style .
Schrores: Well thank you for all your information Jerry . '
Andrews: I 've got one more thing for Jerry I guess , if you're interested
in doing something. If you 're interested in trying to coordinate a ski
trip for your teen night out , I could help you- do that at Hyland Hills .
I 've worked there and can help you make the arrangements there if you want
to do that . It 's a good time . ,
Lash: That was successful last year wasn 't it?
Ruegemer : Yeah . We made two trips last year . Not to Hyland but to .
Hoffman: Afton and Mt . Kato.
Ruegemer : And the buses were pretty much maxed each time so we had roughly I
70-75 people each trip .
Pemrick: I 'll be a chaperone .
Rugemer : Okay, we'll put you down . And they were quite successful . We
were looking at at least one or two more trips onto. . .
Schroers: Anything else?
ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION.
Schroers: Any things of particular interest in the Administrative Section? I
Lash: I think we all just need to be prepared .
Andrews: On the horse trail? '
1
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 39
I We 'd bring in videos and just have contact local merchants as far as
donating prizes and things like that so that 's always quite popular is
prize giveaways and things like that . And we will have music and DJ 's and
I things like that . . .so just an opportunity to give the teens who are trying
to give them an opportunity to enjoy some activities also . . . Annual
Halloween Party , that will October 31st and that 's always a very popular
' activity .
Hoffman: Start planning your costume today .
I Ruegemer : It just goes down the line here . We have activities for the
youth planned out here and also the adults. Kellogg's Hot Shoes aerobic
classes and things like that . Chaska 's offering volleyball in their agency
I will also be having the 5 on 5 basketball program . Offering a
co-sponsership between the Chaska Park and Recreation and Chanhassen Park
and Recreation so we 've had meetings on that already so we will be using
the new community center for meetings and also Middle School on Wednesday
I
night so if anybody 's interested in getting on the draft list or getting a
team together , you can contact me . So with the fall program update here , I
guess it appeals to a wide variety of age groups and hopefully people will ,
the residents of Chanhassen will have an outlet to perform activities .
Schroers: I have a question Jerry . What 's the difference between the
IMonday Night 's open gym and the Men 's 5 on 5 basketball? Is that a league?
Ruegemer : Yes . The Men's Open Gym would be on Monday nights starting in.
ISchroers : And that 's just pick-up?
Ruegemer : Yeah . Just pick-up Monday nights and all the way through March
I and the 5 on 5 , the regular structured league with games being played on
Wednesday nights .
I Hoffman: Team registrations and registration fees and officials and that
type of thing . Monday night is strictly pick-up. One of the new programs
which Jerry just skipped over is the spin-off of one of Curt 's requests.
Past requests and that the grades 9 thru 12 be addressed in an open gym
I format . So we looked at a Friday night there for those high school aged
people . They can play basketball , volleyball , socialize at a charge of
$1 .50 per night . With some foreplanning we 'll go ahead and select a very
I qualified candidate for the guardian or the attendant of that particular
evening since we will be dealing with very active and energetic group .
Lash: That was my parental type question that I was going to ask because
I
what are we providing for supervision for some of these things?
Hoffman: Very minimal access to the building and a person of college
Iand/or adult as supervisor .
Lash: How about Teen Night Out? Are you getting volunteer chaperones?
IRuegemer : For that we're trying to target more for the parents of the
Middle School kids to come out and help supervise and we 've also come up
with the ideas of possibly contacting the Honors Society or the School
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
•
August 27 , 1991 - Page 38 ,
see if we can get some things going for them . You said you were going to
check into it didn 't you?
Ruegemer : Yeah and I 'll get to that item in the next report here. We are
trying to , the Park and Rec Department is trying to direct more , I guess I
more time to that age category. We are developing a teen night out during
the school year and we're working with other agencies in the area to make
that a possibility so I 'll discuss that when we get to the next report . So '
just with the other information that did come back with the evaluations , a
lot of people would like to see the playground program extended from 6
weeks which it currently is to possibly 8 weeks or 9 weeks . Somewhere in
there to just kind of get into, take up more of the summer . Get the kids
more of an opportunity to I guess enjoy a better summer and have more
activities to so that 's something we will be looking at for next year too
is making that program longer and also adding more Wing Dings . Do you have I
any additional questions on that?
Hoffman: The staff we had was very excellent . We had all three new staff
members this year so it was not a returning staff and both playground
leaders and the playground director performed very well and we do have the
opportunity to , the potential of having our playground director back next
year which would help .
RECREATION PROGRAM UPDATE.
Ruegemer : Item c is just a fall program updates. What we will currently be I
having here coming up . The Rocking and Rolling program was very popular -
last fall with the tumbling and balancing and somersaulting exercises we
did have . We will be moving that from the Old Village Hall to the
Chanhassen Elementary School which will provide more space and accommodate
more people . And basically we have a lot of the same programs we had last
summer with additions to like the Karate/Tae Kwon Do class that we offered I
this summer . We will continue that on into the school year to try to
attract more increased class participation . We have the annual Halloween
party coming up here and I just want to touch on what we had mentioned in I
the last item here about the Teen Night Out . That 's currently an item that
we 're working with Galen Madsen down at Community Education and Wendy
Shitzel with Chaska Park and Recreation. We did have a meeting prior to
this date here to discuss a type of Teen Night Out . What kind of '
activities it would. . . We 're targeting these Teen Nights Out for Middle
School kids , grades 6 thru 8 . We already have two dates already and
already have earmarked for these types of activities and •one would be
Friday , October 25th and the second would be Friday , November 2nd . With
these two Teen Night Outs it 's kind of a trial period just to see what type
of response we can get with this type of offering and just kind of see what
we can build on . What types activities these kids would like to do. So
it 's kind of a trial period here . If they go well then we will continue
them throughout the school year . If not once a month, every other month so
it 's just going to kind of, we 'll advertise. It will be in the Midpoint . I
The letter that goes out to the Middle School . It 's going to be in there .
It 's going to be in our City newsletter . It will be advertised in the
Chaska Community Center and so it will be a really good advertisement I
program for this . Here's the activities that would be listed we would have
at the Middle School so we 'd have access to the gym area and swimming area .
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 37
I portion of this report . You can see the 137 evaluations were sent out and
47 were returned for a 34% return rate which is a pretty decent percentage
of being returned so we get kind of a true sense of what people are
I thinking about the program and what types of comments they did have and we
can certainly take a look at that to improve the program for next year . So
basically it looks like people were very much in favor of the format
changes as far as convenience of having both children in the same . If they
I do have multiple children, having people at the same location at the same
timeframe . They think that 's more convenient . Even with the format
change , even with the cost associated with that , it seems that it will
Istill be fair if the cost of the program did go up slightly. People would
be in favor of that. So are there any questions of people looking or
commission members looking through the annual report , are there any
Ispecific questions or comments?
Lash: Well I think these are great .. That we provide this and I know it 's
a lot of work for you guys but in the summer it's great to have activities
I for these kids to do . I know a lot of them get pretty bored . I would go
along with your suggestions of changing it for next year . Combining the
times . I think for people , I mean most people have kids that fall into
I both brackets and then you 've got to haul one up and drop that off and then
go home and then when you come back you drop the other one off and go home
and they 're not there together so you're not really free to do anything
I anyway . I guess I 'm kind of curious as to if you have any ideas on ages .
Like how many 3 year olds you get and how many 12 year olds you get . My
daughter is 12 and she lost interest in Dyna-Mites several years ago and so
I 'm thinking maybe we could .
Ruegemer : Break those down in like ages maybe 6 thru 8. 10 thru something
like that?
IILash: Yeah. And 3 seems kind of young but if people are coming with 3
year olds , I don 't care but I had thought maybe if we broke it down 3 to 5 ,
6 to 8 and 9 to 12 or something like that . You could have your activities
I and crafts more age appropriate . When I read in here 3 hours or something
it just kind of made me shiver because kindergarten's only 2 1/2 hours and
those kids are maxed out . 5 and 6 year olds at 2 1/2 hours. I think 2
IIhours for any of them is plenty.
Ruegemer : That was a pretty well the consensus as these evaluations came
I back . The younger , the Tot-lot age group , that would be more than the
maximum time . They would like to see that cut down . This is just
basically used as an informational tool .
I Lash: And I know I mentioned this to you privately Jerry but I would
really appreciate it and I know how much my children enjoyed the super
events and I really appreciated them having the opportunity to do those
I things and I would like to see possibly maybe an age split on some of those
too . Where Chutes and Ladders is more appropriate for the younger kids and
then have things that are more interesting and appealing to Middle School
IIkids . I think kids 6 thru 8 , grades 6 thru 8 a lot of times just sort of
fall through the cracks. They're not old enough to drive to do anything
yet but they're not interested in going to Chutes and Ladders and some of
those kinds of things but there are things that they like to do so let's
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 36 '
underway this year for Oktoberfest . Also a new addition will be the
Chanhassen city staff selling sliced caramel apples . . . I
Andrews: Will you be selling 4th of July shirts too?
( There was a tape at this point in the discussion . ) ,
Robinson: But we had a Lion's Club meeting last night and Gary Boyle is
Chairman of this Oktoberfest and he specifically said 5:00 .
Ruegemer : I was in to talk to Gary about that .
Robinson: Oh , do you talk to him periodically? Otherwise I can give him a I
call .
Ruegemer : I 'll contact Gary just to clarify the misunderstanding on that . II
Robinson: Okay , thanks .
Rugemer : Are there any commission questions about Oktoberfest?
SUMMER DISCOVERY PLAYGROUND EVALUATION. '
Rugemer : Okay with that we 'll move on to item b on the agenda . This is
the annual summer discovery playground evaluation . As you can see it 's a
very informational tool as far as looking at the Wing program , the Super
Event program and the summer story playground program as a whole and gather
information to improve on the program . . .quality program for next year . As
you can see , they go into all the types of arts and craft projects . Games
that were used this summer . You can see it 's a long list of games . Then
there 's the registration and it 's broken down by park site . By tot-lot
which is age 3 , 4 and 5 . Dyna-Mites which is ages 6 thru 12 and that 's
broken down . You can see the numbers in the report . It has numbers for
Wednesday Wing Dings is a program that 's offered on Wednesday afternoons
from 1 :00 to 2:00 . Kind of the special event for the community to come in .
There 's no charge or any cost associated with the Wednesday Wing Dings.
Just a special feature that we do offer for the community to come in and
enjoy some quality programming. And you can see the numbers associated
with that . Also the super events. With the different trips that we did
offer and with these numbers they may appear to be low but we did
co-sponsor with Chaska so we did really max out at every trip . We set our
maximum amount of people at 35 and Chaska also did 35 and typically we drew
60 to 70 kids every trip so that proved to be successful this year . And
just as you go through the evaluations for next year . There are different
numbers here and I don 't know if you have any questions on those but those
are certainly recommendations that we will take into account . As far as
developing the program for next year and also I 'd like to mention the
possible format change of the program. Instead of keeping it an hour for
the younger kids and an hour and a half for the older , for the Dyna-Mites,
the format will possibly be changed to 2 hour , 2 1/2 hour . That kind of
format and have quality time for both the Dyne-Mites and the Tot-lot
program all at one site at the same time . So that will be, certainly take ,
a look at it . We did have evaluation to every person that was registered
for the Tot-lot and Dyna-Mite programs . That number is back on the back
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
IAugust 27 , 1991 - Page 35
I Pemrick: Jan , I struggled with that for a whole week after that meeting
too . I was bothered all week about that .
Lash: That just frustrates me no end because our end is to do what 's best
IIfor the people and to make sure we get what we need and I feel intimidated
myself . When developers say those kind of things right away I go , oh goll
we must be asking for the moon and we 'd better just back off or he 's going
IIto pull the plug . Well we shouldn't really care if he pulls the plug on
this .
ISchroers: No , that 's his problem.
Lash: Right and I 've heard that before and it just really gets to me and I
buy into it almost every time and I get angry with myself and then I go
I
home and I whip myself for it and I just want to make the point that I
think we need to be careful when they come in and they do that that we
don 't feel intimidated to sell out just because it may make their life
Imiserable .
Andrews: I didn 't get that reaction at all . Just the opposite . I sensed
that was more like he was saying it , telling us like it is for our
informaiton but it didn 't hit me the way it hit you .
Hoffman: Obviously they 're making more money on the deal than that lot or
I those two lots would cost so it's not like it's breaking their bank but
it 's lowering their profitability on the deal so they 're going to argue
hard for it .
IILash: And I was glad that you made the comment that you did and that 's
what kind of got my will 's going a little bit too . You know that at least
I got the impression that you don 't feel the intimidation when they say
IIthose kinds of things to you . You don't buy into it .
Hoffman: Excellent pep talk for next meeting on the next site plan review .
IDo your homework .
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
IOKTOBERFEST.
I Ruegemer : Okay , just an Oktoberfest update here . Oktoberfest is scheduled
for Saturday , September 28th . That will take place from 4:00 until 11 :00 .
We changed the dates this year versus being on Friday night and bring that
back from 12:00 midnight to 11:00 . The participating people this year will
I be basically the same as last year . The Lion's operating the concession
area . As far as all the typical German style foods . The potato salad,
polish brats , sauerkraut . And they will also be serving pop and beer .
IAlso the Rotary this year will be operating the Rotary Bingo again . We 'll
get a tent for them down along Coulter Drive again . And the Snowmobile
Club will also be displaying snowmobiles as well as their groomer this year
again . Also they will be providing the games again which seemed to be real
I popular last year . Adventure Balloons were still hoping that they can get
their display off the ground this year versus 4th of July when they had
most favorable weather for a demonstration so hopefully that will get
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 34
U bolts . Clamped it and it's like , if they want to steal that net they've
got to have at least a heavy duty wire cutter . '
Andrews: That would not detract from the level of play that goes on either
so . ,
Schroers: As a matter of fact it actually reinforces the net and keeps it
stiffer and straighter across the top so it 's not a bad idea .
Andrews: It's real disappointing living in a neighborhood to see those
stolen . It 's not from the people in our area but I think it 's people who
drive in , use it and then decide that 'd be a nice net to take home . '
Pemrick: What is going on on Bandimere? They dug up the whole grass . Are
they planting new or seeding? ,
Hoffman: Giving the field a better crown so it drains much better . We had
requests from mainly the soccer folks to try and fix some low lying areas
which held quite a bit of water . They attempted to do that in just a patch
work fashion and it did not work very favorably so we had excess fill
material . Aquatic soil so this fall when the field was not being used they
went ahead and tore it up and put that material in there and redistributed I
it and put a better crown on the Bandimere Park .
Lash: I have a question , down at Greenwood Shores on Sunday I saw a
suspect looking survey stake in the ground. Kind of in the middle of
everything . Do you have any idea?
Hoffman: Was there a location stake and then a flag stake with orange?
Lash: Yeah , with orange flag and then there was another one next to it .
Hoffman: I believe Dale has staked out the location for relocating trees . I
I will confirm that and if it was something different .
Lash: Just made me nervous . '
Schroers: Thought it may be a tether stake for my dog .
Lash: And then I just have a comment on last month's meeting. This is one
of those after you leave and you think about what happened and you wish you
had said something that you hadn't thought of at the time . When I reread
it in the Minutes my frustration was that it came back again and I guess it
was the comments from the gentleman from Lundgren Bros . . What was his
name?
Hoffman: Terry Forbord .
Lash: Okay . And although I did vote to go along with the recommendation in II
that situation , it really gets to me when developers come in here and say
to us , well if you make us give park property it 's going to pull a plug on
the whole thing and we're not going to be able to do it and we can 't
develop the property and like it 's a threat to us.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
IIAugust 27 , 1991 - Page 33
I Hoffman: The $10 ,000 .00 bought that green and tan piece which is there
installed .
I Lash: Then I had a question on, you said that the Council approved Site A.
What was the , it says there was a hold up because Mayor Chmiel had some
concerns?
I Hoffman: The major question I believe he had was the building serves two
different uses . One is to service the beach but then you have to balance
it with the group picnic reservation site . It's just a matter of
II circumstance and then the layout of the park . If you had the best of both
worlds , you 'd like to have it close to parking yet close to the beach.
Obviously that cannot occur so what it came down to is we cannot sacrifice
accessibility for the mere convenience of not having to walk that extra 150
I
200 feet from the beach to get to a restroom . You still will pass by the
building both on your travel to the beach and then on your exit .
Lash: So his main concern was that it was too far from the beach?
Hoffman: Correct .
IISchroers: Anything else on Capital Improvement updates?
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS.
IIAndrews: I 've got two real tiny little minor points . North Lotus Lake
Park , I noticed now that both volleyball nets are gone . I don't know if
IIthey were both stolen , I assume .
Ruegemer : Earlier this summer one was stolen .
' Andrews: That 's last week because they were up there playing over the
weekend and then it was gone . The other point and this was just again a
minor point . The tennis courts are just now in the early stages of
I cracking . I don 't know if this is something where it would be easier to
fix it now before it gets . I know they 're pretty new and they are still in
very good shape but there are a few cracks developing near the playing
surface of the court that perhaps some pretty minor maintenance could stop
it before the water gets in there and freezes and really rips it apart .
Hoffman: Jerry brought up the nets today and we discussed it . We 'll
IIprobably try to limp along and make it through the rest of the year .
Andrews: I think if they 're being stolen as it is , I think we had one
I stolen last year if I remember correctly . Maybe we have to put up a sign ,
if you want a net call City Hall and reserve one but I don't think we
should provide nets for people to take .
Hoffman: We 're going to attempt to mark them sufficiently and see if that
deters them . If it does not .
' Schroers: How are they installed? Are they just tied up with the normal
strings that come with them? We have entwined plastic coated cable around
along the top of the net . Looped it through the eyebolt and bolted it with
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 32
aggregate , staking out of the play areas and then final restoration
including seeding and potentially mulching of the area . Any questions on II
any of the updates or any of the particular park activity which is
occurring?
Robinson: This is a nice little summary . A nice little update . I ,
appreciate that .
Hoffman: You 're welcome . '
Andrews: It 's exciting to see all this stuff going on . It 's very
rewarding to see results of all these meetings. I
Schroers: Maybe since we 're on this subject , it may be an appropriate time
to mention the $1 ,200 .00 that we allocated to the city of Victoria for the
completion of that section of trail which borders Chanhassen as it goes
from Excelsior to Victoria has been completed . I rode my bike on it on
• Sunday and it was wonderful . I think anyone that is interested in a nice I
little bike ride or a walk or whatever should try it .
Pemrick: Where do you pick it up?
Schroers: You can pick it up on the west end of Excelsior at one point .
There 's one parcel missing in this trail now and that is through the city
of Excelsior so if we have somehow an opportunity, some kind of leverage or
some kind of opportunity to work with the city of Excelsior to get them to
finish the portion that runs through town , you can go all the way from east
of 494 on a trail with no traffic all the way out to Carver Park and-
there 's a sput that adjoins Carver Park's 7 mile paved trail . You can make I
an all day trip with that or just do short portions. It 's really nice and
I think we should feel good about our part in completing that section .
Hoffman: Thank you for bringing that up Larry. I also received one call I
from a landowner up there who is somewhat distressed that the city of
Victoria was placing signs saying no horses . Obviously he wanted to use it
for a horse trail and he was questioning why they were posting that on the
city of Chanhassen property. As we've gone through, that is not the case .
So he was happy to receive a clarification on that but that is just a taste in
of what we 'll deal with on the south trail alignment as you see in the
Adminstrative Packet the correspondence going back and forth to the city of
Eden Prairie . We could get into this cat and mouse situation where we're
going to wait until what they see right now . They're saying they're going I
to wait until they see what we do so we 're going to face that issue and
whether or not we end up with pedestrians and bikes on top of the hard
surface and then take the extra expense to accommodate horses alongside I
through clearing and the necessary grading to make that area accessible or
if we mix the whole use or if we exclude horses, that 's a debate which is
yet to be tackled later this year .
Lash: On the south playground Todd , is all of the equipment that's coming ,
is that there and in? I was up yesterday and just drove through the
parking lot . That 's it? 1
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
IIAugust 27 , 1991 - Page 31
I again I went over that somewhat . They 're nearly complete . The change in
appearance of that area , if you haven't been up there is just dramatic .
The play value and the lack of the mess and the mud and those types of
things is quite remarkable . That is the area which they are repairing that
IIportion of retaining wall which we required them to do .
HERMAN FIELD PARK.
IHoffman: The clearing and grubbing stage is now complete . Grading will
commence very shortly . I have not heard back from the resident , the Lang's
I who are quite concerned about the initial shock of seeing that much
vegetation taken out of that area for the installation of that access road .
In walking the area with them, they are reassured that we are not outside
of our boundaries and all the things that are being done up there are what
I they understood through their involvement in the public hearings and those
types of things so I 've not heard from them since those initial reactions .
IILAKE ANN PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER.
Hoffman: Last night at the City Council meeting , City Council approved
I site A as shown in the attachments which were mistakenly put in here twice .
They were installed in the . . .section as well . Are there any questions on
that? We can address those after my report .
ICURRY FARMS PARK.
Hoffman: Scheduled improvements to Curry Farms included a play area
' expansion , installation of ballfield backstop and an aggregate infield and
installation of bituminous walkway . As stated, all those work functions
are in progress . They had an earth mover in there to strip out the trail
1 and apply the aggregate and will be doing the bituminous in short order
when they do some other work within the city .
SUNSET RIDGE PARK.
IHoffman: It 's in the evolution stages . The grading . The major portion of
the finished grading is completed using city crews and rented equipment .
I The diagram which I showed you on some of those changes may take on a
slightly different look as a result of the recent grading activity out
there which showed a whole new view of that park from which we initially
had when we first walked that and advocated these changes . In fact , one of
II those play items , either the volleyball court , play area or the tennis
court will potentially move down into the lower portion of the park where
the play area was initially shown . The play area does fit very nicely in
I the relocated area shown . It sits up on top of the hill which is visible
from all areas of the park and visible from a majority of the adjoining
property owners . That low area would be very conducive to possibly the
' sand volleyball court . . .being the case of a severe rain in that area , it
becomes somewhat saturated . That particular facility will not be hindered
in that regard . So I 'll keep you up to date on the park master plan .
Again we want to keep Mark Koegler and the people at Van Doren-Hazard
I informed so we can bounce those ideas and changes off of them . The park is
really in an exciting stage . It 's evolving daily and once the finished
grade is in , there will be restoration work , installation of infield
•
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 30
two delays , here we are . Two months , two and a half months later . ,
SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK.
Hoffman: Again just an update of the update. The work has been completed 1
on there . The repair work and the bituminous patching which they
originally installed was completed today . That job has been finaled. We
will do a final walk thru on it in the very near future and will go ahead
and take over the upkeep and maintenance of that area. A side note , as
part of their project or in conjunction with their project , the City public
works and park maintenance people will go ahead and reconstruct . As you
drive down the boat access the hill off to the right hand side was very
difficult to maintain because of the grade so they 've deposited additional
fill in that area . Regraded it with the involvement of the two adjoing
property owners . Keeping them involved in the process and it looks much
nicer . They 've restored the area and reseeded it so now the boat access in
it 's present state should be very maintainable . The heavy rains which we
have seen , the new retention areas and holding pond in the lower area has II
performed very well so in my opinion, hopefully this lake should no longer
be a pain in our side .
Koubsky: Was that all within budget Todd? ,
Hoffman: Correct . All within budget .
Koubsky: They did a nice job.
Robinson: Yeah , it does look nice . 1
CITY CENTER PARK.
Hoffman: City Center Park has progressed very smoothly. We had a final 1
walk through last Friday . They needed to reconstruct a portion of one
retaining wall which was in a leaning condition and take care of some
sodding problems and soil compaction . Those types of things . Minor
instances but the north playground, Judd Fehrman , the Eagle Scout project ,
when he initially got into it he thought he took on something bigger than
he could handle but after a couple of days he saw that he could accomplish I
it . He performed very well in doing so . Excavation of the excess soils
allowing installation of the pea gravel did occur . That was in the
contract which we approved there . City crews will begin installation of
the first phase of the handicapped accessible play equipment which was
purchased last year and then delivery of the main structure is anticipated
the first week of September with completion by either late September or
early October of that piece . And if you recall , the conflicts which
occurred there would be Community Development Block Grant people . We did
not include installation of that piece of handicapped equipment into that
contract or we would have to abide by very stringent wage controls and to II
tack that onto our package , bid package would have been very difficult so
we went ahead and took the installation on ourselves . Tennis courts have
been repaired . They 're complete . They're being practiced on by the Middle
School JV tennis group for the last two days. The public has been calling
daily to get back on the courts . They 're in excellent condition and should
service this area well for a number of years. And then the south area ,
I
II Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 29
11 Andrews moved, Pemrick seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend approval of the 1992 Capital Improvement Budget amended to change
the $800.00 installation of trees from North Lotus Lake Park to Sunset
IIRidge Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROJECT UPDATES:
II LAKE SUSAN PARK.
Hoffman: This is brought to the Commission's attention . Just to keep you
II
up to date . We have a lot of capital improvement projects taking place
within the city . Some are just beginning and some are in their completion
stages . Lake Susan , as stated . Work was to commence on that today . Monday
1 the contractor did miss, through some miscommunications amongst themselves ,
did miss a locate meeting for utilities . That was rescheduled for tomorrow
morning and they tell me the excavator will be back in there sometime
I tomorrow morning to begin excavation work on the parking area and the boat
ramp . The general contractor has been in there and installed the silt
fence down around the lake for construction activity and floating silt
curtain within the lake for the dredging out of the boat access area . So
' we are moving foward . I know Larry had a question tonight about the archery
range and if we can speed things up there to attempt to get that into place
for this year 's prime season for tuning up for the bow season . All through
I the year I had no worries about that because completion date was set for
June 15th on this project . Obviously that has not occurred so .
Schroers: Has that been given to the contractor? Is the contractor
actually supposed to be putting in the archery range?
Hoffman: They 're doing some work associated with that archery range ,
Icorrect .
Schroers: The grading or berming?
IHoffman: Grading , berming and then restoration of the area .
Schroers: So we have to wait for that? We can 't go ahead and acquire
I
bales and put bales out there just so people have a place to get ready for
the season?
II Hoffman: The contractor would push them over and do his work and would
have to go in there and install it . Unfortunately .
ILash: Are they giving you a completion date now?
Hoffman: Exact completion date is about a month , month and a half . Again
that 's just from the time that they start . I 've frazzled myself in trying
I to nail these people down and attempted to do so for this evening was
disappointed with them that I had to come back and say work had not started
today . Hopefully it will start tomorrow . Again to back up , that resulted
II from the spring rains and then we also had the Watershed District imposed
stiffer restrictions on us than they originally had done so we had to go
back to the Watershed District which is a timely commitment to get their
11 approval on plan changes in the park development so as a result of those
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 28
Hoffman: No . I
Lash: I am going to try talking to Kitty Sitter from the APT of
Chanhassen . She's the President of the APT and I know that they already
donated a substantial amount last year . It will probably be tough for us
to try to get them to donate any more . But in doing some fundraising at
East Union Elementary a few years ago, I became aware of a funding program
through Lutheran Brotherhood Insurance Company . That if you do fund
raising on your own for something like for your school or some organization II
but it has to be a concrete type thing . It can 't be for paper goods or
things like that , they will match your fund raising efforts up to $1 ,500 .00 1
so I thought maybe if I mentioned that to here we could get a commitment
from APT for $1 ,500.00 with Lutheran Brotherhood matching it and that would
be another $3 ,000 .00 from them.
Hoffman: Again, that $10,000 .00 can float around in there and if the
commitment does not come through , we can either allow it to stay in reserve
and gain interest or reallocate it at some point in the year . I
Schroers: Okay . Any other particular concerns on the proposed budget?
Hoffman: Just to back up to Jan's comment . A note on the signs . The wood 1
park identification signs are the large wood routered signs. Traditionally
to purchase those was in excess of $500 .00 so in talking with our park
maintenance people they will construct those signs over the winter
routering themselves and $250.00 is included for materials cost.
Materials , tooling , that type of thing for those signs so we' ll go ahead
and begin making those ourselves . 1
Schroers: Okay . Anything else? If not , we need a motion to recommend
approval of the Capital Improvement budget as shown for 1992 .
Hoffman: With the noted change . $800 .00 trees going to Sunset Ridge .
Andrews: I move that we approve Capital Improvement Budget as amended . ,
Pemrick: I ' ll second .
Lash: I 'm sorry , I had another question. It 's not going to change '
anything but what are the , you have under Lake Susan aeration system ,
installation $4 ,000.00.
Hoffman: Again, in talking to the folks at Eden Prairie, it 's just a rough
estimate on the cost of the initial hook-up of electrical service and those
types of things for trenching that in . The purchase is obviously quite a
bit more than that . Maybe $30 ,000 .00 so $4 ,000 .00 presumably would take
care of the hook up and initial costs associated with that first year
connection . That does not include an allocation for electricity .
Electricity would not be coming out of the 410 budget . It would be taken
out of a 145 recreation budget .
I
I
I Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 27
I which are shown in here . 4 trees would augment that tree farm plantings
and would then allow us to buy balled and burlap or spaded trees from a
local vendor . The larger size that we can handle out at the nursery to
I supplement some of those areas, especially around play equipment and around
areas where we hold programs . Summer discovery playground at parks and
that type of thing .
ILash: That kind of answers my question because I thought that the trees
were free from the tree farm and when I saw the $800 .00 and those amounts
budgeted in a couple of places , I was kind of confused . But I think at the
Ilast meeting Jim didn 't you say you didn't think that North Lotus really
needed any trees? Maybe we could take the money from that and switch it to
Sunset .
IAndrews: Yeah, the trees that are there are small but I think there are
enough there that given time they get a little bigger will provide the
shade that you 'd really want. And if you put too many more there I think
I
you'd have a situation where 5-6 years from now you 'd be removing a tree
which doesn 't make a lot of sense to me .
ILash: So do you think we could just switch that?
Andrews: I think we could take that out of there yeah .
IHoffman: The intent with that again as stated at the last discussion was
for boulevard trees along the roadways to create a boulevard type of
presence along the ballfield and then along Pleasant View .
ILash: Well you know, if that 's an aesthetic thing and there's already some
trees there and the other park doesn 't have any trees , then it seems like
I the need is to have some more where we have none and then later on go back
and do that . Just to make it better . Another thing that I had a question
on was the park signs . They 're listed individually for each park and then
Iat the back there 's $3 ,500 .00 for 50 signs .
Andrews: That 's for the rule signs . The other one was for the entry signs
that identify each park .
ILash: Oh , those aren't the rule signs?
1 Andrews: No .
Lash: Oh, okay . Then another question I had was on City Center Park play
equipment expansion and then 50% share?
I
Hoffman: The next phase of playground equipment for the south playground
would be $20 ,000 .00 and we discussed at the last meeting that we would go
I50/50 split with the school district . So if we go ahead and pass this
through final budget , we 'll begin some preliminary discussions with the
school district so they know our intent .
ILash: But you don't have any kind of a commitment from them at this point
for any money right?
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 26
Otherwise , a vacation day.
Andrews: Todd , if there 's anything in that conference about a municipal
golf courses I would be interested in knowing when that might be scheduled . I
Hoffman: I believe I saw something . I 'll mail a schedule of events and
then just to take your own action in getting back to me on that . Either
before the next meeting .
ESTABLISH 1992 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT BUDGET.
Hoffman: As discussed at the last meeting I was going to bring this back I
either at this commission meeting or the following and then lo and behold ,
plop comes the budget material from the finance department on my desk so I I
have to have that into them by the 9th so I went ahead and scheduled it on
this agenda . Again, the budget discussions were held the past 2
commission meetings . The June 25th and July 23rd meeting . The results of
those work sessions is tabulated in the attached proposed 1992 park
acqusition and development CIP . A budget cap of $150 ,000 .00 was utilized
in preparing this recommendation . This includes anticipated revenues of
$145 ,000 .00 in park and trail fees and $5 ,000 .00 in donations from the I
Chaska Lion 's . Park and trail fee revenues for 1992 are estimated taking
into account past revenue totals . Performance in this area this year and
the forecasted building activity in Chanhassen for 1992 and beyond. The
figure of $145 ,000 .00 is $30 ,000 .00 less than the estimated revenue for
1991 and is slightly below the re-estimated actual revenue for that same
year . Consulting with the City Manager , staff is confident this budget
request will match closely with the actual conditions in 1992 . As the
commission can see from the itemized 410 Park Acquisition and Development
budget , it accomplishes all items discussed at the last meeting .
Commissioners have the opportunity to comment on the proposed budgets
allowing changes to be made prior to the submission to the finance
department and eventually onto City Council . Again I 'm also aware that the
commission has a desire to take a broader look at the department 's I
activities by making use of a detailed 5 year capital improvement program .
This particular discussion was not. . .for a series of work sessions starting
later this year . With that staff recommends approval of the 1992 capital
improvement budget as shown. Minor changes and detailed expenditures '
requested by the commission can be accommodated .
Schroers: Does anyone have questions in regards to the information Todd
has provided us with?
Koubsky: I think it all looked pretty good. I. guess I would ask for a II couple of trees at Sunset Ridge Park . It's all pretty flat . There isn 't a
lot of building on the west side . That gets pretty hot and you will be
putting in a play area. I know you re-arranged that a little bit but if
some trees could go on the west side of the play structure to create some
shade in the future .
Hoffman: To bring you up to date . The •park maintenance division is having
a strong replanting effort this fall and will be taking trees out of the
nursery to do that . Again , we have to exactly where the locations of all
the facilities and these will be prior to that occurring . Budgeted amounts •
•
I Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 25
Iare more familiar than others withe the conference but it is our
professional conference within the State of Minnesota for professionals
within the field of recreation and parks . We should see registration
I materials coming out in your Keeping Up. If you don 't receive that let me
know and I 'll get you a copy of those materials . And if you are interested
in at all attending , please contact me or let your intentions be known
I tonight and I 'll kind of act as a booking registration agent for any
commission members who would like to become involved on either a limited or
more extensive basis .
I Schroers: Can you obtain a schedule or calendar of events . I 've been to
this in the past and there are some things that go on at certain times that
people may be more interested in rather than not interested . If you have a
I schedule you can look at what day might be a better day to attend because
different things are scheduled on different days .
' Hoffman: Sure . I happen to be on the conference work committee and have a
fairly concise schedule of events . I 'll make sure that is up to date and
then I can mail that to you so we have some time inbetween when the actual
final registration material will come out to take a look at that and see if
Iyou are indeed interested .
Schroers: What days of the week did you say that was?
IHoffman: Wednesday , Thursday , Friday .
ILash: Is that the week before Thanksgiving?
Hoffman: Thanksgiving?
IRuegemer : Thanksgiving 's the 27th I think .
Hoffman: Just a show of hands of anybody who may be interested . Okay .
I Again, once you see the schedule of events , then you can get into a
particular topic . Perhaps something jumps out at you of special interest
on a personal basis .
Schroers: Having attended this in the past , I can tell you that there are
a few very interesting speakers . You're likely to pick up some good
information and be kind of entertained at the same time .
ILash: So people . . .and this is just a personal questions . Do you take a
vacation day or since you work for Hennepin Parks are they like happy for
' you to take off work to go to this?
Schroers: That depends on how things are going and how I 'm getting along
with my supervisor at that point in time . They might say that that would
I be.
Andrews: It depends if he gets caught .
' Schroers: If they feel that it would be beneficial to Hennepin Parks for
me to attend , they would probably , we have a deal where we can be paid for
education that will benefit the parks so I would have to work that out .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 24
working in that location . They 're going to want to be involved in youth
athletic associations and in adult softball leagues and active type of
pursuits . That Outlot A contains the creek which is already protected by
the setback . The 75 foot setback . Contains their holding pond which is as
we 've heard tonight . . .undesireable . It 's in the Watershed District . They
pose very stringent restrictions on it so it's not as if we don't accept it
they can develop that piece of property but they certainly would like to
get out from beneath the approximately $160 ,000 .00 in park fees that this II
would generate if we did accept it .
Lash: Have we in any of the other industrial areas like this taken park
property?
Hoffman: Rosemount we accepted additional park property for Lake Susan for '
the construction of the boat access. So definitely that was a trade-off
but we also , that was just a portion of their park fees.
Andrews: We got a piece of quality property .
Hoffman: Correct .
Lash: But that was for an overall kind of scheme of things for a community I
park . I mean in a typical industrial complex like this , do we want to
plunk a park in the middle of the whole thing?
Hoffman: Not necessarily , no . As I stated , if they were willing to give
us one of their lots to construct ballfields on for the leagues which that
area is going to generate , it's a large industrial development . Upwards of II
thousands of employees . If they would want to do that we would certainly
consider that but short of that , I recommend that we go after the park
fees . '
Schroers: Well the location of this really doesn't lend itself very well
for park property anyway .
Koubsky: The one problem though is everybody with the softball , everybody
would be over at the Sunset Ridge ballfield which is a neighborhood park .
That 's the closest thing. It's right across the street . ,
Hoffman: Hopefully they 're involved in some type of industrial softball
league which would then take place at Lake Ann.
1991 MINNESOTA RECREATION AND PARK ASSOCIATION ANNUAL CONFERENCE.
Hoffman: The 1991 MRPA conference is scheduled for Wednesday, Thursday and II
Friday this November 20th thru 22nd at the Radisson Hotel in Bloomington ,
Minnesota . Same location which it was held last year . There 's an
opportunity for any commission who would like to partake in this conference II
if you choose . The daily conference package as well as full conference
packages are available to board and commission members of MRP which this
commission is . The budget for commission member participation in our 1991
budget totals $500 .00 . The conference includes keynote speakers ,
educational sessions , general sessions , the Hall of Ideas and Exhibit Hall , II
professional meetings , socials and awards banquet . Some of you may have ,
I Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 23
IHoffman: Again , if the pending grocery store comes through, we should make
up that difference in that one building permit coming through . That's a
large piece of property . It 's commercial . It will be charged $2 ,500 .00
II per acre . I don't recall the total acreage off the top of my head but it 's
approximately 15-20 acres .
IISchroers: What 's the hold up on that? I thought that was already going to
be built . Where 's the problem?
II Hoffman: The word right now sounds like ground breaking in September for
the grocery store . But again that's .
Schroers: That must be just about as difficult as an archery range .
IHoffman: Pretty close .
ILash: And a South Lotus tennis court .
Schroers: Okay , do we need to spend anymore time on item 4? Anything else
on that?
I SITE PLAN REVIEW: CHANHASSEN BUSINESS CENTER PUD.
I Schroers: We 're going to omit item 5 tonight . The person involved wished
to extend for sometime down the road because they have some more work to do
on that .
IHoffman: Can I just have a moment to make some brief comments Larry?
Schroers: Sure .
IHoffman: It was pulled at the request of Ryan Construction , the company
who owns the property and then RLK Associates , the people working with them
I on that . Initial re-actions from Ryan upon discussing this recommendation
with Kent Carlson , the property development manager , was fairly passive .
He wasn 't too worried about the report recommendations. However , after
Ryan and RLK had time to discuss the matter they asked that it be pulled
Ifrom tonight 's agenda . Presumably that 's to give them an opportunity to
develop a rebuttal to my recommendation which was prepared for tonight . So
that gives them a month 's timeframe until our next meeting . So again this
Iitem will be scheduled again for September 24th . I believe that the basis
of that report presented by the applicant will be their belief that Outlot
A should be accepted in lieu of park fees . We'll prepare an updated report
I on this item in response to additional information provided by the
applicant over the next few weeks . I believe they are going to come in
with a revised development plan which then we 'll have to work off of . If
in reviewing this item between now and the upcoming meeting commission
II
members have any questions, either give me a call or stop in the office and
we 'll go through it . It's a big chunk of property and as stated in my
report in your packet, they wish to dedicate Outlot A and then to construct
I a trail in lieu of full park and trail dedication fees . It is staff 's
belief falling back on city ordinances that Outlot A does not meet the
requirements of land which is eligible for parkland dedication credit . As
Istated , we can visualize what these people are going to be wanting that are
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 22
in 1985 , '86 and '87 they had 5 fish house counts. Now that was before the II
public access went in so you know they were local people . But in '88 and
'89 there were zero . In 1990 I believe there was zero also. Now we try to
do this the same time of the year every year and we schedule it so it gives
you a good idea when there was a fisheries out there that was worth angling
for and when there wasn't . And I 'll almost bet a nominal sum of money that
once an aeration system goes in there and fisheries is established you 'll
see that number jump dramatically .
Schroers: Interesting . Thank you very much for your time . We appreciate
it . i
PARK AND TRAIL FEE REVENUE REPORT.
Hoffman: Item 4 is brought to the Commission as a point of interest to
keep you up to date with how the park and trail fees are coming in. As of
July 31 , 58% of the year expired , we had just about $57 ,000 .00 in park fees
collected and $20 ,300 .00 in trail fees collected. Again, those fees ,
represent in park fees , 51 .6% of our budget which is then slightly below
that 58% and 40.5% of the budgeted amount for trail fees which is
considerably more or less than the 51 .6 . However with a good portion of I
the busy construction season ahead of us, it 's no cause for alarm at this
time . Park and trail revenues this year account for $60 ,000 .00 of the
$175 ,000 .00 budgeted for improvements in the fund 410, Park Acquisition and
Development . The remaining $15 ,000 .00 is budgeted under donations of which 11
only $1 ,700 .00 or 11 .33% have been collected to date . The explanation
given there I believe we've discussed before . Chaska Lion's have pulled
out of Filly 's and currently only operate at Pauly 's. I can 't predict what I
the total amount of donations will be but it certainly will be less than
$15 ,000.00. Point of interest . The reason or one of the reasons we 're so
far behind or further behind in trail fees is that a major portion of those
homes being developed this year are in the Lake Susan Hills West and with
the sidewalks which they're constructing in that area , there's no trail fee
collected from those building permits so that 's a high percentage of the
building permits in the city this year . So that's why that's shown as
slightly behind. Again, not a big concern at this time. With the
construction of the grocery store , mall area pending , if that comes
through, that will more than heal our deficit here in short order . For
your interest again , an itemization of park and trail fees collected to
date is shown . You also have a map of the revenue zones which been created
following natural instructional boundaries for our finance department and
Park and Recreation Department to be able to track where those revenues are I
coming from . At this time I will take any questions from the commission
members on the revenue report. II Schroers: Looks to me like it 's well prepared and pretty self explanatory .
Robinson: And you expect the trend to continue and we can expect a
shortfall at year end?
Hoffman: A shortfall?
Robinson: Yeah.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 21
II Lash: If we want to have the public hearing , maybe we want to talk about
it if you think that 's even necessary or whatever but if we decide we don't
want to take the time to do that , I would certainly want a letter or maybe
there could be a neighborhood meeting that you could explain to them what's
happening . Some way for them to be kept up to date on what 's happening .
Schroers: Could we simplify this process this evening by just making a
IImotion to direct staff to go ahead with the necessary proceedings in
regards to applying for the grant?
IHoffman: Sure .
Robinson: I 'd second that .
ISchroers moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
direct staff to take appropriate action in coordinating procedures
necessary to pursue acqusition of an aerator for Lake Susan. All voted in
I
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Al Klingelhutz: I 'd just like to ask the DNR people one question . What
Iother thing could be done to . . .in the winter of 1991-92? To save the fish
that we have there now .
' Dave Zappetillo: Well this is something that I would suggest . I 've heard
it presented on a couple of occasions if you 're looking at a very short
timeframe . The simplest thing that I would do to save a body of water like
this for a one year period is shovel the snow off . Make sure the ice is
I safe of course but just remove the snow. Remove the snow on a portion of
the lake . You wouldn't have to remove it all I wouldn't think but remove
as much as , you know one of the basins somewhere . That was one of the
I things that I would suggest or if the homeowners wanted to do it or the
Asociation wanted to do it. That 's probably the simplest and easiest .
What you want to do is allow the light to penetrate through for any plants
I that may be still alive , they can photosynthesize . That 's probably one of
the simplest things you can do short of digging . Opening holes or
something because the inherent problem with that There 's no guarantees
that that will work but I 've seen it experienced in other bodies of water
' and usually that associated with kids doing hockey rinks . They create a
hockey rink out of the pond and they keep it open and generally that 's
enough.
ISchroers: Ice fishermen drilling holes into the lake really doens 't do
anything as far as oxygenation?
I Dave Zappetillo: Not enough unless you get a lot of them out there . There
is something if you really want to see what we call in the business a boom
and bust fisheries. If you look at the lake survey that we have that was
' done in 1988 . By the way , this will be rescheduled for 1983 to be done .
We try to do a one in every 5 year cycle. That's usually our routine .
Look , you can almost see it because we fly over designated areas for fish
I house counts and generally these are permanent houses that we fly over
and Lake Susan , we put this as part of the lake survey . Lake Susan, just
interesting . I was just looking at that because it 's a classic example of
it . Anglers will go out there when there's fish available to catch . But
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 20
Dave Zappetillo: If you really want hard figures , and I re-emphasize , look II
and if you 're interested in seeing a system work, I would go look at Red
Rock or Mitchell which I say is your neighbor here and ask them
specifically any unique questions for the area . So it's fairly close and II
it's in a similar type situation. They 're bigger , well no. Red Rock 's
about the same size come to think of it so it gives you , if you really want
to see, to correlate something for budget purposes. We can give you
ballpark figures for what we've experienced and everything but if you
really want to talk to someone who's physically running one , check with
them .
Hoffman: I have been in contact with the City of Eden Prairie for some
preliminary information and they 'd be glad to provide any additional . I
think one clarification for the benefit of the audience who do not have the I
report . The one down side to all of this is that we're not eligible for a
cycle 1991 grant or for this upcoming year so we have really no mechanism
to go ahead and install this this coming year . We would have to take a II look at a 1992 grant application and make it through one more year out at
Lake Susan without an aeration system . Then again we would , as they
stressed , we would only be eligible for that grant application. The CORE
or the Cooperative Opportunity for Resource Enhancement program is the same II
program which we acquired the fishing pier at Lake Ann which Jerry works
with . And again at this time I 'd like to take a moment just to thank both
Jerry and Dave for coming out . The time they took is very appreciated . I
I know Dave at least was at the State Fair all day and working the crowds
so it tacked an extra addition onto his day at least .
Andrews: Do you need a motion for a public hearing? '
Hoffman: If you want to pursue that , yes and then I would lay out some
type of timeline to take a look . Again , unfortunately we're not in a hurry II
so that would probably take place sometime after the first of the year and
then look into a schedule .
Jerry Johnson: Can I stop you there? '
Hoffman: Sure .
Jerry Johnson: I require a CORE application by the end of the year so
you 're in line for the next budget cycle .
Hoffman: Great . We 'll move that up. '
Jerry Johnson: So we'd want it at the latest December 1st .
Schroers: Of 1991?
Jerry Johnson: Of 1991 . And I require resolution from the Board because
we have a number of projects out there that were funded and the city
official who submitted the application didn't bother asking the rest of the
city officials . '
Pemrick: Is there a noise nuisance for nearby neighbors if this runs 24
hours a day? i
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 19
space that 's available to it . So I mean those are the things that you as a
manager , when you do that you look at those things . But you 've got to
start and if you know that you 're not even going to reach a growth
potential in 2-3 years because you know that the winter kill 's going to
occur , or partial winter kill and that means that the most susceptible will
go and the ones that aren't so susceptible will stay around . I think this
is what happened here is that you 're catching some of the fish that are a
little bit more hardy . Or they found a small refuge but the population is
not there . So I mean those are the things , and then when you have a real
hard winter , real thick ice , lots of snow , then the whole thing will go .
You just don't know when that 's going to occur .
Schroers: Even with an aerator in it may totally freeze out in an
extremely bad winter?
Dave Zappetillo: I have never experienced that except for one time and
that was on Hyland Lake . What happened there is the aerator broke down
so I mean it really wasn 't , they had problems with it mechanically and they
didn't run it for a period of time and we had a partial winter kill , but
that 's the exception rather than the rule . I have not heard , when an
aeration system is put in properly , and I emphasize that because it has
some design limitations . Size of lakes that you can put these in and
things like that . But as long as it 's put in properly , I 've never had one
experience a winter kill no matter what kind of winter we had.
Jerry Johnson: It 's more an issue of the fish finding the refuge area if
the winter kill conditions are severe . We have a lake on the east side of
St . Paul that's a very shallow basin and we seem to get a fish kill every
year and it 's just a small percentage of the population . It looks
significant when they 're up on shore in the spring but it really isn 't .
And these fish just have not found the refuge area or they 're blocked from
the refuge area because of the shallow water and the lack of oxygen . Water
count .
Andrews: One last
question of Todd . Would the electricity and maintenance
of this come directly out of Park Board funding or would that come out of
city funding after installation . We would go ahead and budget for it in
one of the park functions , correct .
Jerry Johnson: A system of this size requires about $7 .00 a day in
electricity cost .
Lash: And typically it would start in December sometime do you think or
not until January?
Jerry Johnson: It varies with the winter . I would say the average time is
the middle of January .
Lash: Two months maybe tops?
Jerry Johnson: Two or three depending on the winter .
Schroers: So it 'd be like $240 .00 for an entire season operating cost?
Park and Roc Commission Meeting
11 August 27 , 1991 - Page 2
I of a different area . But being a homeowner in the area and living there
over 2 years I have seen homes with the builders thinking they were going
to sell . Being taken over by the banks and finally sold so with great
decrease in value . There are homes, there are three homes on the lake and
I one of the other people here , Don Mehl 's is a landowner on the lake and he
might want to say something after me . Todd had written a nice response and
everything . The questions I have I guess I 'll bring them up and see what
' you can do to help me out . On the service area part , I guess I can see
that the Carver Beach Park is accessible through, there 's a very poor
pathway that needs to be developed that I didn't even know about . I drove
I to it on occasion and canoed to it . But I guess I 'm looking at a different
perspective . I 'm like taking a pro tractor and putting the point down and
making a circle of a half mile. From Shadowmere it doesn 't include the
Chanhassen Pond Park or the other , Meadow Green Park and the Carver Beach
I Park is just on the edge then. I mean that 's my perspective of looking at
the same thing . Everybody looks at things differently. So that 's a
question . I don't know if it 's valid or not . It 's the way I look at
I things versus the way other people look at things . So maybe you can
address that . It is unfortunately because of these great ideas with the
development and the developer actually not doing , the first developer not
doing much of a job and really kind of with recession too but there 's only
I
5 dwellings occupied that are not on the lake in that development . There's
27 lots . I know Todd had also mentioned that each lot could have a
swingset or whatever . I think we're still thinking of this park as not ,
I well maybe a recreation park but maybe more of just an area that has some
benches . Nothing more than that and I have pictures of the lot and if you
want to pass them around. Also , he has some pictures too . There is , I
I don't know who owns the drainage area . I was told the City was by the
person that I purchased the house from . He said the City will take care of
that and do a good job . At one point he was trying to sell us that lot and
that 's what the selling point was so maybe you can inform me on who, if the
ICity does take care of it , what 's happened to it . It 's kind of like maybe
something lose in the shuffle but that 's why I 'm here because I do pay
taxes and I like Lotus Lake . I like where I live but I 'd like to see some
I things as a taxpayer and a resident that I feel could happen. So that 's
why I 'm here .
' Schroers: Before you leave , could I ask you to state your name and address
for the record?
Mary Kay Schmitt: Oh okay . Mary Kay Schmitt and it's 521 Shadowmere.
IThere 's no road . It 's on the cul-de-sac .
Schroers: Okay, Mary what we 'll do is we will hear everyone's concerns and
' then we 'll address the concerns that you 've raised after everyone 's
finished .
Mary Kay Schmitt: Okay . Yes , I 'm done .
IISchroers: Thanks a lot .
' Don Mehl : I 'm Don Mehl and I live at 490 Bighorn . Our lot is immediately
adjacent to the lot we 're talking about and I feel we have a lot of concern
as to what 's happening over there . Right now there is tremendous erosion
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 3
problems . The water level is very close to the surface. Every time it I
rains you get ankle keep in mud if you walk through there . There's about
600 square feet of my backyard that I haven 't developed yet because it
would just take too much fill to bring it up to something that could be
developed and I 've been waiting to see what 's going to happen . Whether or
not the lot will be built on or is going to be a park.
Schroers: Sir , is the erosion you 're talking about , now is that on Lot 11
or is that on your' property?
Don Mehl : No , it 's on Lot 11 . There's an entrance , kind of a driveway '
that somebody brought a Cat in and excavated it down so that you could
actually drive a vehicle down there. Since that was done , it became
eroding very badly and I 've got some pictures here also . It started to
encroach on my yard so I took some timbers and built a little bit of a
retaining wall along the lot line there just to keep my yard intact . And
we took some of the excess dirt that we had and filled in the gullies that 1
you see on the pictures so right now to day it doesn 't look like those but
it will with a few more rains.
Lash: Could I ask you one more question just in regards to 11? '
Don Mehi : Yes .
Lash: On the map 11 , it runs across the top of your?
Don Mehl : Right . It 's sort of an L shape . '
Lash: Okay , so it includes the other jog that goes all the way down to the
lake?
Don Mehl : Right . It's actually two lines there that are adjacent to my
property . There's about 165 feet on one side and about 130 feet on the
other side .
Lash: So is the question that's in Court now that the whole part of it is
unbuildable or just the L part that goes down?
Don Mehl : Well the portion of the L nearest to the street has this big
drainage pit from, the storm sewer and that's another problem . That has , I
you wouldn't believe what 's been there. I mean people have dumped rocks .
They 've dumped broken cement in there. I 've seen cement trucks back up and
wash out their big units and chutes into that pit. I assume it's getting
washed into the lake . I don 't know . It 's just overgrown with weeds and
all kinds of erosion . The pit is getting wider of course because the
erosion is eating away at the sides .
Schroers: But that developer originally sold that lot to a private party II
for the purpose of building a home there?
Don Mehl : I assume he 's trying to, yeah. It 's in Court right now I guess. I
But I have some concerns as to what is going to be done with that .
I personally would support a park back there as opposed to leaving it you
know . I don 't think it 's buildable because of the ground conditions and
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
11 August 27 , 1991 - Page 4
II actually the location isn't great . But to have a park back there we
naturally have some concerns . How's it going to be constructed into a
park? There would have to be a lot of fill brought in . We 'd like to see
Isome landscaping and see it done right . Then who maintains it. What kind
of hours are put on it . We don 't feel like we should have to chase down
beer cans and McDonald 's wrappers and cigarette butts that will find their
way in our yard you know . Our bedroom, master bedroom goes off the back
Iand it 's about 35 feet from the lot line so noise would be a problem . Those
things have to be addressed but we would support a park in that area . Any
questions at all?
IPemrick: Have you had any feedback on what a going price would be? At one
time it sold for $90 ,000 .00 . Is that still?
IIDon Mehl : I have no feel for that at all . I just live next door .
Schroers: Okay , thank you very much sir .
IMary Kay Schmitt: I forgot to add. This is from. . .house next door . . .
' Schroers: I have one other question of either one of you . Did the
developer at any point in time indicate that there was going to be a park
in that area provided with a portion of the development?
IDon Mehl : Not to me . In fact they tried to sell me that lot . It did have
potential assuming it was buildable . It had potential to be a nice lot . It
would take a lot of maintenance and. . .we chose the one next door .
ISchroers: Okay , I guess we can open it up for discussion among the
commission members now . Is there anyone who would like to start with any
' particular thoughts on this?
Andrews: I 'll be brave . I 'll go first . I sense more of a request here to
correct the erosion and the shabbiness of this property than I do a real
Irequest here for a park . That 's kind of what I 'm hearing a bit if you want
an eyesore fixed and if a park will fix an eyesore , then we 're in favor of
a park . But if some other way would fix this eysore, that would be okay
Itoo . That 's what I 'm hearing . The other thing I have to comment back to
you would be , as a commission and as a part of the city we obviously have
funding constraints and believe me they 're quite acute and there are many
areas in town that have no park . No useable park within their half mile
II
distance so we have that to weigh as well . I guess being that you 're
within a fairly reasonable distance of 3 existing parks and the cost and
the apparent inferior nature of this property, I don't think I could
Irecommend that we acquire that property .
Schroers: Jan , do you have anything?
Lash: My initial feeling is that I think it seems like it 's kind of a long
distance for children in your area to get to a park , personally. If I
lived there I think I would be feeling the same as you . And there are
Isome barriers to get to them . I think as far as Meadow Green they have to
cross Kerber and I don't think any of them are really very easy for kids to
get to . The problem that we have is that we just don 't have the funding to
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 5
spend $90,000 .00 or maybe even more than that . Whoever has it. I don't f
know what they would want for it . We just do not have that kind of money
to buy one lot for a neighborhood park for one small neighborhood .
Schroers: We have a total budget for 1992 of $150 ,000 .00. So if we were
to acquire that one parcel for $90,000.00 , we wouldn't even be able to
justify that because we wouldn't be able to operate the rest of the parks
in the city .
Lash: Now if something were to happen where out of this court case where
the person who has it , wants to just give it to us, that 'd be great . We 'd
be willing to take it and even then who knows when we 'd have the money to
do anything with it but it 's got lakeshore . I see that it could be a
potential of a nice spot and if we ever have an opportunity for lakeshore,
I think we should jump on it if we can . Unfortunately we just do not have
the money and I feel bad that we're in that situation but that 's just the
situation that we 're in and there's really nothing that we can do about it .
I certainly would be in favor of if there would be a way of us getting it
donated, that we would jump on that or even if we could get it at a very
reasonable price . If it 's an unbuildable lot, I don't know what they're
going to do with it anyway so we 'll have to wait and see .
Don Mehl : Is there someway they can be forced to at least clean up the
front half of it so it 's not an eyesore? It's really bad. ,
Lash: I think there is ordinances . It really doesn 't fall under the Park
and Rec jurisdiction to do that but the City does have ordinances for
people to maintain vacant lots.
Schroers: I think what you would have to do would be to file an individual
complaint and file the complaint with the city and pursue it that way.
Hoffman: I 'll go ahead and pick that up for the property owners out there
and be in contact with engineering and public works department . Get those I
'people in contact with Mr . Mehl and Mrs . Schmitt to follow up on that
condition because we really don't want to confuse the other issue of a lot
which is in disarray with the issue of whether or not it should be a park .
Just so we keep those separate .
Andrews: I just wanted to make one comment . I was quite alarmed to hear II the comment made about the cement trucks being cleaned and pollution being
put into this holding pond which is really the holding pond prior to
discharging into Lotus Lake. I think that more than likely will be a
blatant violation of what those people ought to be doing . So appreciate
you telling us that .
Don Mehl : You'll find a lot of stuff in that pit . ,
Lash: Is it people just dumping fill?
Mary Kay Schmitt: It 's more like builders . '
Don Mehl : Yeah, it's builders .
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
IIAugust 27 , 1991 - Page 6
IILash: Do you know who?
Mary Kay Schmitt: Just show up there .
Don Mehl : I don't know who the cement truck company but I 've seen it
twice .
' Schroers: I 'm sure that information can be found out .
Koubsky: Is the builder , either Todd or Don, had any comment or input on
I his intentions other than he sold this property so I 'm assuming he 's really
not making any comment at this time .
II Hoffman: No , the property is certainly out of the city 's hands . It's a
privately held piece of property and obviously in a bit of confusion right
now. It could be a buildable lot. It 's going to take some money to create
a buildable lot and that I believe is where the problem comes in . In the
Ilitigation the driveway would go down along side of that holding pond.
Retention pond and then the house would be set somewhat facing the lake but
the soils and the grade in that area is going to take some work to create a
Ibuildable location .
Koubsky: Is the current owner local?
IHoffman: I do not know .
Lash: Do you even know if the condition of it would even be conducive if
I we had the opportunity of acquiring it somehow or another , would we even
want it?
IHoffman: It 's not conducive for very much . No , it's very limited.
Schroers: Probably for passive use but not active .
II Hoffman: Passive use and the pricetag and the subsequent cost to develop
that piece of property would be pretty unsurmountable for the use that we
would receive .
ISchroers: Okay, Dawne or Wendy any comments? Curt?
Robinson: You 've pretty much covered it . I was on the Park and Rec
ICommission I see in 1987 when we said we would take fees instead of
parkland and I think that still holds true today. I think that's still
valid .
ISchroers: I guess that I feel pretty good speaking for everyone in regards
to , we would like to acquire every parcel that we possibly could that would
make a good active or passive use park provided that it was economically
feasible and reasonable . But you've heard several times our budget
situation just really makes that impossible. It would be nice if everyone
had a park that was easily accessible and you didn 't have to cross major
I
roads to get to it but that 's something that very few people have that
luxury . I think in regards to the erosion problem , being that the parcel
or the negotiation over the parcel is in court , I 'm sure that's why nothing
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 7
is being done with the erosion . No one actually knows probably who 's goinn ,
to end up with the responsibility or who the owner is if it's in
litigation . So I 'm sure at the time that they decide to develop it , that
that certainly would be corrected and that the lot and the structure on it
would have to be up to Code. So I think that in time that problem will
probably work itself out . I wish we could be a little bit more positive
about that particular parcel for a park but I just don't see that it 's
reasonable to pursue at this point.
Mary Kay Schmitt: What is a reasonable amount of money for a lakeshore lot I
for the park . . .to buy?
Schroers: I think that that's a pretty difficult question. There's a lot
of factors to come into play . First of all we have to really determine II that there is a use and what kind of use and activity we are going to have
in the park and we have different types of park . We have a city park like
Lake Ann that draws from the entire city and we have the neighborhood parks "
which are generally used just by the neighborhood . In this instance if we
were to have what we would term a passive use park . If we would say that
this site isn't suitable for ballfields and a lot of activity , if we were II just going to clear an area and have a little picnic like area down by the
beach and a few tables or benches or something like that , the amount of
dollars that it would cost to purchase the property and develop that in
relation to the amount of use that it 's likely to get and the benefit to
the entire community was actually paying for it because everyone in all
parts of town could be paying for that property , it 'd be hard to swing it .
I wouldn 't even put a dollar figure on it myself but you know, reasonably
speaking you 're not going to get that for it . If it 's already sold for
$90,000 .00, you 're not going to get it for much less than that and it would
be very hard to justify that kind of expenditure . There are other
developments all over town that say here is, we have our parcel already II here . When are you going to put some playground equipment in it and if we
can't equip the existing property that we have so we can get use out of it,
we 'd be looking pretty foolish to spend that kind of money on another piece "
of property that we wouldn't be getting utilized that much. Any other
comments or input?
Andrews: Do you need a motion here? ,
Hoffman: Yeah, I need a motion .
Andrews: I don't think anybody wants to make the motion but I will move
that we accept staff recommendation and do not proceed with any acquisition
at this time . '
Erhart: I 'll second it .
Andrews moved, Erhart seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission '
recommend that the City not pursue acquisition of Lot 11 , Shadowmere for
park purposes. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Andrews: Todd , you 're going to look into the erosion problem? '
I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 8
IIHoffman: Either that or I 'll talk to the engineering department and have
somebody contact you both by phone to update you on the situation with the
holding pond and the condition of the lot .
IIMary Kay Schmitt: So if we see anything now that is wrong, should we
report it?
IIHoffman: Give us a call .
Pemrick: Could there be some no dumping signs posted?
IMary Kay Schmitt: That would be nice .
' Pemrick: Would you be in favor of something like that?
Schroers: I don't think we can sign private property though .
IHoffman: No . If you see a builder dumping that type of trash, call the
Building Department , Public Safety and ask for the Building Inspector .
Something to do with the condition of the erosion or the holding pond would
Ibe the engineering department so we'll get back to you on those issues .
Schroers: Thanks very much for coming in and sharing your information with
I us .
Lash: Don't forget your pictures.
IIDISCUSS POTENTIAL OF AERATING LAKE SUSAN.
Public Present:
' Name Address
IDavid Zappetillo DNR Fisheries
Jerry Johnson DNR Fisheries
Al & Mary Klingelhutz 8600 Great Plains Blvd .
Gene & Tylor Klein 8412 Great Plains Blvd.
Hoffman: Lake Susan , as it stands in Chanhassen is a 93 acre lake with a
Imaximum depth of 17 feet as shown on that overhead . Department of Natural
Resources management classification of the lake really is a regular winter
kill . Records of the past 20 years show that partial winter kills have
occurred s a a a a a a a a a a in '74 , '75 , '76 , '77 , '78 , '79 , '85 , '86 , '88 , '89 and 90 . The
ecological classification of the lake is centrarchid which means fish of
the sunfish family which are the predominant species present in the lake .
Meaning sunfish , crappie , bass . Northern pike are also present and a
Isubstantial population of bullhead and carp . The frequent winter kill
associated with Lake Susan have prompted many informal discussions in the
past concerning the possibility of stocking and providing an aeration
Isystem for the lake. Historically the circumstance which prevented moving
forward in this direction was the lack of the public access . However , with
the installation of the access now eminent , the DNR will provide lake
• management which would include scheduled stocking . In fact the DNR has
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 9
provided initial stocking of bass and walleye fry which are very small fish "
stocked shortly after hatching in the fall of 1990 . To provide the
knowledge and experience needed to guide this discussion this evening,
I invited Mr . Dave Zappetillo , Metro West Area Fisheries Supervisor and
Jerry Johnson, Regional Project Coordinator for the DNR. They are here
this evening and will discuss with you very shortly some of their ideas and
experience in this area . I have asked Dave and Jerry to discuss the II various type of aeration systems available and to make a recommendation as
to the system which they feel would best suit Lake Susan . Again, there are
some concerns which the general public has in regards to the aeration II system . If we move forward in that direction, we have to address those
sufficiently and if the Commission wishes to pursue this activity , it would
be recommended that a public meeting be scheduled to gain input on the
proposed project and then pending a favorable outcome of this meeting , make ,
a recommendation to apply for a CORE Grant with the City Council . So with
that I 'd like to invite both Dave and Jerry to come on up . You can go
ahead and have a seat there . Larry, I think we 'll let either Dave and/or
Jerry both just give you some brief overview comments on their position
with the DNR. Their experience in this area and then we'll open up for
public comment . We do have some people here from the Lake Susan area and
then take some comment from commissioners .
Dave Zappetillo: I 'm Dave Zappetillo , West Metro Area Supervisor . That
encompasses Hennepin, Scott and Carver Counties. I 'm basically responsible II
for the management of the lakes in those areas . Lake Susan not only was
stocked with walleye fry and bass in 1990 but it was also stocked this past
spring with an additional stocking of walleye fry . I was invited by Todd
to come here and speak to you regarding the aeration. Aeration will solve, 11
it's been our experience it will solve the problem of the periodic winter
kill that occurs as you can hear almost yearly , if not partially. Just to
give you an example of winter kill type situation , if you're not familiar
with it , we look at approximately of 2 parts per million as a critical
standard in the winter time type conditions . What that means is that
critical period is if it drops slowly throughout the ice covered condition I
on the lake . Then it will 2 parts per million is kind of where the game
fish start dropping out .
Schroers: And what you 're speaking of is oxygen content in the water? '
Dave Zappetillo: Correct sir . That's absolutely correct . Just to give
you an example , Lake Susan last winter , the winter of '90- '91 , in December II
when we took it the first time, it was 8 .3 parts per million a foot below
the surface and approximately 1 part per million on the bottom. A foot off
the bottom . In February , approximately the middle of February. I didn 't
write down the exact date but it was approximately the middle of February ,
we went out there and it was 1 part per million on the surface and about .4
of a part per million so we knew that unless the fish could find a refuge , II the game fish , any of the species of fish out there , then they were in a
very stressful condition and more than likely were winter kill . That 's why
we made the additional stocking of walleye fry in this past spring . Any
other specific questions I can address and I 'll turn it over to Jerry here. II
Jerry Johnson: Hi . I 'm Jerry Johnson and I 'm the Regional Project
Coordinator for the Department of Natural Resources in the seven county
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 10
IImetro area . Part of my job responsibilities is to coordinate aeration
systems for various communities . Todd asked me to describe a couple
different types of aeration systems we work with. The first one is the
I oxygen diffuser type and there 's one over at Round Lake in Eden Prairie .
That system would be similar to an aquariam where you 've got a pump
injecting oxygen into the water column . The drawback to this type of
system is that it keeps, it erodes the ice so you 're looking at a lot of
open water . Now the system at Round Lake is operated prior to ice up in
hopes that it will turn the lake over and inject enough oxygen into the
water column so it will make it through the winter months . Unfortunately
I
the last fall it was operated for such a short time due to some maintenance
problems that there wasn 't enough available oxygen to make it through the
winter so we had to supplement that system with a portable pump and baffle
type system . Now that type of system is the one I would recommend for Lake
Susan and that is basically a pump on floats which pumps water from a
certain point in the lake to an artificial cascade or baffle system and it
I cascades down this ladder of baffles and oxygen is mixed with the water at
that point . It enters the waters it is fairly highly oxygenated water .
That again creates a refuge area which will keep fish from experiencing
winter kill conditions . There is a third type of aeration system and this
Itype is used down at Cedar Lake and Scott County. Compare it to a bait
store aggitator in the minnow tank where the device actually aggitates
water , churns water and is directed in a specific direction and sets up
' currents but again this creates a large open area of water which is fairly
undesireable .
' Schroers: From the standpoint of safety?
Jerry Johnson: Correct . There's several types . A portable pump and
baffle type aeration system can be installed . One is where we have these
' at various locations around the Twin Cities . I mentioned that we used the
one at Round Lake last winter . The baffle system sits right on shore and
the water cascades and just enters the lake from shore and it keeps a small
I area of water open. Another application of this system and we 're working
on right now with the Minneapolis Park Board is that you bury the
artificial cascade so it 's not even seen. Thus reducing some of the
maintenance problems of icing up , etc . . But then the water is directed
I
farther out into the lake and there is no open water problem associated
with that type . Unfortunately that's very expensive and it sounds like
your budget wouldn 't allow such an application. On the other hand the
Iportable pump and baffle type , we would be able to pick up the majority of
the purchase price . You would be responsible for running power to the
system and taking care of minor maintenance . Of course you need to apply
Ifor the permit and mark the system properly.
Schroers: Is the portable pump and baffle system as efficient in aerating
the lake? Will it do the job?
IIJerry Johnson: Yeah , a lake this size it would be no problem . I 've
already done some calculations. For a lake this size it would require a 10
Ihp motor with an 8 inch pump . About 150 feet of 8 foot hose and a baffle
chute . The dimensions are 24 inch x 24 inch x 144 inches. That system is
approximately $30 ,000 .00 and that 's a good round number for the systems we
issue through our CORE .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 11
Schroers: And your department or the Department of Natural Resources will II
pick up some of the cost or the majority of it? All of the cost for
putting that into Lake Susan?
Jerry Johnson: Right .
Schroers: Then what would your recommendation be to safeguard the area?
Just fencing it and then putting thin ice signs?
Jerry Johnson: Right . Exactly. That 's all spelled out in the application
documentation .
Schroers: There 's actual standards and stuff?
Jerry Johnson: Yeah . And a lot of communities have actually gotten the
blaze orange fencing.
Schroers: Yeah , construction fencing . '
Jerry Johnson: Sure . To tell you a little bit about the CORE program and '
how it works . We accept applications and then write them in a priority
order for the seven county metro region. At budget time we sit down and
see how much money we have available to us and then go through the priority
for funding these projects. I
Lash: So are you saying we 'd just be on the list?
Jerry Johnson: Right . 1
Lash: So you 're not saying that we would not .
Jerry Johnson: I can't guarantee that you would get one .
Robinson: And there was . 1
Jerry Johnson: There was 4 applications last year and 3 of the 4 were
funded .
Robinson: And what would be the responsibility of the City of Chanhassen?
The maintenance?
Jerry Johnson: Right . And the liability insurance.
Schroers: And supplying the power? I
Jerry Johnson: Right .
Schroers: And that 10 horse power motor is an electric motor? '
Jerry Johnson: Right . It's a three phase electric motor but with the unit
comes a three phase power converter . I 'm not an electrician. I don 't
quite understand this but as long as you have single phase coming to the
power pole , the systems come with about 150 foot of cord. The three phase
converter can be put right on the power pole .
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II Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 12
IIRobinson: What else would maintenance entail? The electricity .
Jerry Johnson: Sometimes these units have a tendency to ice up so daily
II inspections to make sure that water is flowing . The pump 's running .
Everything 's intact .
il Schroers: And it would be the City 's responsibility I 'm pretty sure to put
up the fencing and signs in regard to safety?
Jerry Johnson: Correct .
1 Pemrick: Is that all removed when the ice is out?
111 Jerry Johnson: Definitely.
Lash: And the City does that or you do that?
IIJerry Johnson: The City does that . We purchase it and then it 's your
responsibility to house , maintain it and equip it .
IIAndrews: Who owns it then? The City or do you still own it?
Jerry Johnson: We do .
IIAndrews: You do? Alright . -
II Schroers: Do you have to apply for that permit on a yearly basis or once
you 're granted a permit can you aerate from that point on?
Jerry Johnson: It 's an annual renewal .
1 Lash: What is the life expectancy of one of these things?
IIJerry Johnson: 20 years .
Schroers: When you get a permit , say the first time it gets approved, we
get the system and the second year , if we already have the system here and
1 we apply for it , is that basically just a formality to renew the permit?
Jerry Johnson: Right . I want to go back to your question . The system
1 doesn't have to run every year .
Lash: How do you know which years you have to run it?
IIJerry Johnson: We have an oxygen monitoring program where we check area
lakes on a periodic basis and we don't or we will recommend to various
communities when it 's time to turn the machine on. When it gets
IIdangerously close to winter kill conditions.
Lash: You 'll set it up each time or the City has to set it up?
1 Jerry Johnson: No . The manufacturer , the successful bidder is required to
give a seminar and set up demonstrations for the equipment and from then on
II it 's the responsibility of the city or community to set up the equipment .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 13
Andrews: Is this something where like at mid-winter we might be notified
that it 's time to turn it on?
Jerry Johnson: We give you plenty of advance notice. I
Andrews: So you keep cutting holes in ice or is this something where?
Jerry Johnson: Yeah, the pump needs to be set in an open water space . I
That's usually done by cutting a hole 3 feet by 3 feet with a chainsaw .
It's really not that big of undertaking.
Andrews: I just kept imaging these 20 guys out there cutting this giant
hole .
Schroers: Probably 2 guys and half a day could activate the system don't I
you think?
Jerry Johnson: I worked with the City of Eden Prairie last winter and the f
three of us who had never put one together and you know worked on one
before had no problem setting it up ourselves .
Lash: So if the thing breaks down or wears out or in 20 years when it 's
all been used , then do you just replace it or do we have to apply for a new
grant again? '
Jerry Johnson: I suspect in 20 years, in 10 years we 'll have a whole new
type of aeration system .
Koubsky: Jerry , what 's the pump capacity on that? How much water are you
turning over?
Jerry Johnson: Our formula is that the system needs to produce 10 gallons I
per minute per acre and Susan is almost 100 acres so we need to produce
1 ,000 gallons per minute . And the pump of 10 horsepower would be to
provide 1 ,500 gallons per minute . It's nice to go high than low .
Koubsky: So then as your fish populations increase , which this is designed
to do correct . Do any of the communities kind of face then an over '
population problem where they're becoming more and more dependent on this
as they get more fish?
Dave Zappetillo: Well yes it is but it 's also you have a space in other i
environmental conditions that will maintain your fish population out there .
You have a space , critical carrying capacities of the lake. Things like
that are self limiting . You can't put two fish in one space you know.
That 's one thing that you can't do so as you establish a good population,
you' ll have some big one , medium ones and smalls and as that sets up, then
what you 're trying to do then is just maintain a refuge for those fish to I
survive in . That's the one thing you've got to keep in mind . It 's not
going to create where it's going to make the lake or ice disappear . It 's
creating refuge of 2 parts per million or better so that fish are under a 1
less stressful condition .
Andrews: Do you typically close that kind of lake to ice fishing?
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I Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 14
Dave Zappetillo: No. Absolutely not . Especially with a pump and baffle ,
that 's the positive side of it . The safety factor is limited . If you do
for some reason , some child or inquisitive adolescent goes over the fence ,
II mean if they drop through thin ice , they're going to drop up to their
waste max . So the area is a real shallow area that you 're physically
dropping into and that 's why the Department is to get a grant is almost
Igoing exclusively pump and baffle because of that simple safety factor .
Andrews: I guess what I 'm envisioning here is ice fishermen being what
they are , they would tend to get as close to this thing as they possibly
Icould because that 's where the fish are going to be .
Dave Zappetillo: Well , there is that possibility but the thing about the
pump and baffle is it shoots it under the ice so you have a current of ,
well at the beginning it 's about 7 or 8 parts per million. I 've heard
numbers thrown out and as it goes further and further out into the lake
obviously the volume is such that it 's going to be reduced but you still
I have better than 2 parts per million so the fish will seek out the best
area . But it 's still limited to volume of the lake . You 're not going to
find them right up at the pump and baffle . They can't handle the current
Iso they're going to be further out .
Andrews: This is kind of a question out of left field here but reading
I about milfoil being , prefers lakes of 20 feet or less as ideal growing
conditions . Is this going to any way .
Dave Zappetillo: Promote that?
II Andrews: Pardon me?
IIDave Zappetillo: Are you saying promoting that?
Andrews: Promote milfoil for growth .
1 Dave Zappetillo: The milfoil when it shows up will seek it 's own and what
you 're trying to do has no bearing whatsoever on the fish population . What
you 've just got to keep in mind now, what you're trying to do is maintain
II the , allow the fish to survive a critical period in Minnesota . So the
other environmental conditions that would impact that body of water is not
a factor here . That's what you 're trying to resolve and maintain a quality
I fishery throughout the year . If you know the , if you 've ever seen the hour
glass , you 're trying to open that neck of that hour glass as wide as you
can to allow another year to continue .
1 Koubsky: Jerry or Dave , does trepidity become an issue?
Dave Zappetillo: Generally not because what happens , what you generally do
I is you put a solid area below where the initial force of the water hits .
I 've seen hoods of cars and things like that . Something that can
physically be removed so it will disipate that energy and move it out . I
Idon 't know what is Eden Prairie .
Jerry Johnson: I guess I don't understand .
I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27 , 1991 - Page 15
Koubsky: Well your shooting water down. Obviously you're not shooting it I
up towards the ice because that would melt the ice and create a weak point
so I see a 1 ,000 gallons a minute being injected into the water and if it 's
hitting the sediment , I see a silt problem . •
Jerry Johnson: Yeah, there's a plate on the base of the baffle system and
it directs the flow out and not down . There is no problem. We did have a II
problem over at Round Lake last winter in the bottom plate wasn't set up
properly and scoured a small hole that was soon corrected. It 's really not
an issue .
Dave Zappetillo: May I suggest if you were truly interested and obviously
we're talking a couple years . Maybe a year . Maybe a couple . It depends
on what funding . I can never predict , just like you can't predict what the II
legislature 's going to do . In funding various programs like this but the
City of Eden Prairie which is one of your neighbors here do have two pump
and baffles . Brand new systems within the last year . One is on Red Rock
Lake and one is for Mitchell Lake . I would approach them and any problems
that they would have I would suggest talking . If you want to see a system
in operation, I know one will be on both of those lakes probably this
winter , assuming we have a severe winter . You can 't predict something else II
like that and that 's the other advantage of this pump and baffle system
that you should be aware of . Unlike a helexer system where you 've got to
start that before or during an early part of the winter because if you
don't you literally can cause a winter kill because you take a certain
amount of the energy of the force coming up to melt the ice to create the
open water . A pump and baffle system, you start it when you need to do it 11
and you want to hit it before you hit that critical period but to give
yourself enough leeway . Therefore the 0 & M is reduced because you may not
start it until January 15th maybe and run it for 3 weeks because by
February 30th the lakes are starting to break up anyway . So those are the II
other positive things that come into play here.
Schroers: I 'm wondering about maybe some other positive aspects in your II fisheries program . Are your people more eager to do more fish management
on a lake that is aerated because you think the rate of success is better?
And would you possibly be interested in doing something to remove some of I
the rough fish out of the lake to give a healthier game fish population?
Dave Zappetillo: Well , a couple things that come into mind here. We 're
eager in the sense that we know the work that we 're going to do has a
relative success potential . This is one of the things that I can honestly II
say that when I put right in my proposal when I established to stock Susan
Lake. I said right after that we would stock it if a winter kill occurs .
This is one of the things that we understand these problems occur and we
will try to maintain it as best we can. Those yes. I would be more than,
I wouldn't say more than eager but I 'd be more favorably look upon
something like that that I know that what we 're doing has some relative
means of success . I will hesitate if I know that next year I know it 's
going to have a strong potential of dying because why waste the time and
energy . It doesn 't make any sense . As for removing under utilized
species , usually that's self limiting too because as your gate fish
population rises , the other population will start to reduce because your
lake is only going to carry so many pounds of fish total . Whether they're 11
I