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5. Downtown traffic study for signals at Great Plains & West 78th St. l f 64"."' I il O F° _ CITY 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739 Acra 'iv ,.r,H �k I MEMORANDUM `'__ neea.........(1, y :91 TO: Housing and Redevelopment Authority Slir I FROM: Paul Krauss, Planning Director - - ;, DATE: April 12, 1991 ISUBJ: Final Report, Strgar, Roscoe and Fausch, Chanhassen Central Business Traffic Study IIThe firm of Strgar, Roscoe and Fausch (SRF) was retained by the HRA last year to undertake a detailed traffic study of the Chanhassen I Central Business District. The study had several goals, some of which were modified over time. The underlying purpose of the study was to enable the city to get a handle on downtown traffic problems and means to address them. It had become clear that with the II completion of downtown street improvements and recent spurts in development, that a reassessment of downtown traffic patterns was important. Secondly, at the time the study was undertaken, the 1 city was faced with the possibility that Target may be coming into the community. Even if Target did not come into the community, it was clear that a significant amount of commercial development is I likely to occur. One of the tasks of the study was to reassess recently completed downtown street improvements and clarify what, if any, issues continue to exist in this area. Lastly, the study was revised to include traffic work needed to review redevelopment 1 proposals on West 79th Street. The HRA and City Council reviewed a preliminary draft of a portion I of this study several months ago. The consultant received additional direction including the expansion of intersection analysis to include Frontier Trail. Additionally, a license plate II study was performed outlining the origin and destination of traffic patterns throughout the downtown area. SRF staff will be present to discuss the report in detail and II respond to your questions. A brief summary of report findings may be appropriate. Under the Existing Traffic Operations Recommendations, the most important proposal is that the West 78th II Street/Great Plains Boulevard intersection be signalized. This intersection is currently operating beyond its capacity and is projected that this situation will also get worse. A good deal of stock has been placed in the realignment of Hwy. 101 around II i T 1 Traffic Study April 12 , 1991 Page 2 ' downtown Chanhassen and the potential this has for relieving traffic flow. The report examines this issue in detail and concludes that while some traffic will be rerouted, the internal ' growth of the CBD as well as other areas surrounding it, will result in trips routed through it more than offset travel reductions stemming from the realignment. Under Future Traffic Operations Recommendations, there are several proposals. These include: 1. A recommendation that each development within the CBD undertake a traffic impact study to allow for monitoring and mitigation efforts. 2 . That traffic control signal systems will be needed at W. 78th Street and Market Boulevard and W. 78th Street and Laredo Drive by 1993 , W. 78th Street and Kerber Boulevard and W. 78th Street and Powers Boulevard by 1996, and projecting out into the future at Frontier Trail by the end of 2002 . 1 3 . Roadway widening of W. 78th Street should be undertaken as follows: o Between Laredo Drive and Kerber Boulevard the road should be widened by 1998 or after 450, 000 square feet of new development occurs. 1 o Between Kerber Boulevard and Powers Boulevard by 2003 or after 730, 000 square feet of new development results. 4 . It is noteworthy that it is not recommended that 78th Street ' between Laredo and Hwy. 101 be widened in any significant way. t, Thus, the recently completed improvements need not be disturbed save for flow control improvements including minor widening and changes to street geometrics. Update (6-5-91) : The HRA reviewed this material at their April 1 P P 18, 1991 meeting. There were positive comments made regarding the report and its conclusions. In particular, those present felt that the city should proceed towards the installation of the first traffic signal at West 78th Street and Great Plains Boulevard. Staff Recommendation Staff recommends that the City Council accept the SRF report and direct the HRA to undertake the construction of the signal at West 78th Street and Great Plains Boulevard. I r I Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 22 I that grocery store here and I 'm still in the position to see Market Square go . But with the time delays and problems that exist and Bernie enters into , we have to just try to keep this thing going so everybody stays . I don 't want to displace any business person within this community, I don 't care who is it . I have a concern with it . But I think if we can try to work it with the best of two worlds and try to get this thing going maybe II from both ends , see what happens . In the meantime , we 'll pull together something from the city . Bohn: Would we be setting a precedent if we would give him the same package , give Bernie the same package going to Sorenson 's building as he would in Market Square? I Chmiel : No . That 's something for determination to be made by staff to come up with a conclusion to that . Horn: I think that 's pretty safe to assume . Any other questions? Jeff Hanson: If we stay where we 're at in our existing place right now and r say we have to stay there through this next season , the building we 're in is in bad shape . We have major repairs to stay in that . We have major water problems . . .big factor . I Bernie Hanson : Through all the construction and all the vibrating really . . . Jeff Hanson: Separate the buildings . Since there 's three buildings there together . . .basically starting to separate . Workman: It 's four buildings and a trailer now. Horn : Anything else? Thank you gentlemen . Let 's move on to the next item . DOWNTOWN TRAFFIC STUDY BY STRGAR-ROSCOE-FAUSCH. Krauss : I think you 're all aware that last year the HRA retained the firm of Strgar-Roscoe-Fausch to look at downtown traffic issues . Along the way I a lot of things happened . Target was here and then went away . Brad had a redevelopment proposal he had to look at and. . .the focus has changed a little bit to where you 're looking at a lot of intersections and traffic signalization and potentionally what needs to happen with existing place . 1 Improvements that were constructed in the last few years . SRF came to me several months ago with. . .version of the report and we gave them some direction as to where to proceed . One of the issues or questions that was raised was by Chairman Horn concerning a need to look at Frontier Trail as one of the intersections on the study . Areal critical factor for us was that the work that had proceeded up to that time was part of a continuing process and it culminated in work that 's been completed recently which included a traffic modeling effort which was projecting forward where trips are going to be going . Where they 're going to be turning before and after the TH 101 relocation and as traffic grows over the next 10 years . In addition they did a license plate study that basically looked where , it was " 11 Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 23 used to determine where traffic 's coming from . Where 's it going to . If ' it 's not staying in downtown , why is it going through downtown . All that worked together with the modeling effort to result in the report that you have tonight . Over the last few months they 've been quite busy months for the consultant . They lost a little bit of time and I think you 're aware that some of this work couldn 't be done while daylight was short and why you couldn 't read license plates because there was snow on them . Well here we are and I think it pretty much wraps up or kind of culminates . . .effort ' to date . With that I 'd like to give this over to Denny Eiler and Jeff Bedennauer from Strgar-Roscoe to give an overview of what 's in the report and respond to questions . ' Horn: I think we 'd like to concentrate or focus on the addition since the last report rather than duplicate what we went through last time . ' Denny Eiler : Exactly . After sitting and listening to this , I guess I would question the forecast here maybe that we 're using as to when some of this development might occur but nonetheless , it 's kind of picture of doom and gloomand we 've noticed that in some of the other communities around here . We do a lot of traffic impact studies for the city of Plymouth and some of the other cities where we 've reviewed developer 's proposals for the city and that work has fallen off to zero . We 're not folding our tents and leaving town , we 've got enough other things to do but we 've noticed that the climate has definitely changed . As Paul mentioned , we did go out and make some additional traffic counts and the license plate survey and I 'll try to cut to the chase and find the appropriate spot in the figures here . The one intersection that we hadn 't picked up as of the last meeting which I believe was in November was Frontier Trail and 78th Street I intersection and we made a manual turning movement count and you can see those volumes there . This is the a .m . peak and it shows 36 vehicles coming ' out of there of which 30 are turning to the left . We also counted the p .m . I which showed 32 vehicles turning right in so it 's a pretty reasonable day . We 've got as many going out in the morning as we had coming back in the evening . What that all meant when we ran it through a capacity analysis for stop signs , it shows up in Table 2 along with the other intersections I and maybe I could leave part of this up here . We 've analyzed the minor approaches on all these intersections . The highway capacity on here which is a document that was prepared on behalf of the Federal Highway I Administration under their direction and some research organizations , measures stop sign capacity in terms of , or stop sign level service in terms of lack of reserve capacity . It really doesn 't have anything to do with delay . It 's more a factor of you have so many vehicles out there . I They have so many gaps to turn into . What percentage of the available gaps are being used , or how few are left to be used? In looking at those , Frontier at a southbound left turn was at level of service D in both the I a .m . and p .m . peak hour for that left turn out of there and that 's indicative of some sort of a problem there . I guess there really isn 't the capacity problem but there are some delays there that are excessive and I some gaps that may have to be taken there a little bit less than ideal . We also re-evaluated the other intersections and checked our math on those and found that most of our observations were exactly the same as they were the last time . That the side streets of a lot of these intersections are Iexperiencing problems . And as Paul mentioned , the next item that was 1 • I Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 24 I really of critical interest was the license plate check . The system we devised doesn 't work well . This shows the 8 stations we used to monitor license plates and the way this is done . A tape recorder is used and license plate numbers are read off at those locations and then those recordings are brought back to the office and the license plate numbers are ' typed into a computer matching program . For a trip to be counted as thru trip , it has to appear at one location and then appear at a subsequent location within what was it , a 5 minute interval? Jeff Bedennauer : Well it was recorded by 5 minute intervals . If the plate showed up in that interval or even adjacent intervals , it was counted . Denny Eiler : So if somebody did indeed stop off for a few minutes , they may show up as a thru trip . If they stopped off for 10 minutes or more , they definitely were not recorded as a thru trip and did have somewhat of a major destination in downtown . Persons stopping to pick up a quart of milk ' maybe would show up as a thru trip . But stops longer than something like that would show up as not leaving the area . In going through kind of the key portals in the downL'own , and these were done the p .m . peak , of the traffic approaching from Powers Blvd . , there 's a total of 270 vehicles that were recorded . 95 of those wound up going outside of downtown Chanhassen . Now we didn 't count , make turning movement counts at Powers along with this 'll at this time but one would have to suspect that there was probably very little traffic that came down Powers and then went back up TH 101 . So it appears that of the 71 vehicles , now some of these might have actually made brief stops in downtown but 25% of the traffic approximately was going thru to go north on TH 101 . And there were some movements that maybe were Powers , south on old TH 101 or out to Dakota . Likewise we , with the traffic coming up Great Plains , old 101 where that was destine and we actually found that 18% of the traffic went in and came right back out again and they would have had to make brief stops to show up on the study in that manner . There were even 41 of those vehicles who came up to 78th 1 and then on up TH 101 which is approximately 17% of the volume . Traffic from TH 101 , there were volumes that went in and came back out again of course . There were 16% going through and going down old 101 and then another 21% went on through to Powers . Traffic coming off of TH 5 . Traffic coming from TH 5 seemed to generally have destinations within downtown . Not a lot of that , what appears to be a fairly obvious move , not a lot of that was actually happening . The net results of all of this and II we were looking primarily whether the facts of the proposed straightening of TH 101 on the east side of town and this is a fairly complex figure but it does show some of the movements . The net results is we feel that 250 vehicles would be removed primarily from the focal point of downtown , which II is the Great Plains and 78th Street intersection and that 's out of approximately what , 450 thru we figured . You could likely expect that you 'd get over half of the so called thru trips that are occurring in downtown that don 't have destinations within the downtown are out of there by making that improvement . Now that 's a sizeable number today . It 's 250 vehicles in one hour is a pretty good number . I guess compared to the future development which we covered in our report , it may not be that significant but that doesn't mean that the improvement is not worthwhile . My memory 's kind of failing me . When is that project proposed to be completed? Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 25 r Krauss : Next year . ' Denny Eiler : Next year . Soon . That project does have some implications on some of the recommendations concerning the existing volumes , particularly at Great Plains and 78th . What the improvements are needed and they may help some of the current problem intersections . Particularly on the stretch of 78th Street between Great Plains and 101 . That 250 • vehicles would almost be , all of them coming off of that piece of 78th ' Street in here which would benefit the Frontier Trail intersection obviously . Now we took the land use that was given to us by Hoisington , existing and future , and we have a traffic assignment model which we built specifically for downtown Chanhassen . I mean built is kind of a generous ' term there . It 's a spread sheet and it does take trips from zones according to land use and signs and thru intersections and . . .turning movement volumes and Figure 16 shows the results of those volumes for the ' p .m . peak hour and there are some pretty significant movements here . And this does include the diversion that would occur with the completion of TH 101 down to TH 5 . But this is a full build up . When full build up occurs , we I guess at best we 'rg assuming what , 2010 . With the doom and gloom picture that was painted earlier tonight , that might be optimistic . Now what we attempted to do after that was we also generated daily volumes and what these volumes indicate typically is that ultimately 78th .Street , ' certainly in this area , will need to be 4 lanes . Ultimately . Now how we get from today 's volumes to these volumes . 15 ,000 is really about the limit you can operate a two lane roadway with separate left turn lanes . If ' you have a two lane roadway with left turn lanes and right turn lanes , once you get over 15 ,000 you 're getting into problems . .TH 5 for example east of here where it 's still two lanes , it 's carrying over 20 ,000 and I don 't I think you want downtown Chanhassen operating like that . And that 's why it 's being upgraded . So the long range implication is that 78th Street will ultimately have to be 4 lanes when full development occurs and what we 've done is taken a look at some of the needed improvements and taken a I look at some development threshholds and looked at some of the proposed developments and when they might occur and we 've grouped it into three stages and tried to take a shot at when those years would occur . The first I big chunk of development is 170 ,000 square feet of which the Market Square is part of that . I 'm not sure what . It 's about 100 , okay . And we 've tried to list the improvements that would be required to go with that . Now the 78th Street and Great Plains intersection currently does meet signal I warrants and currently , at least the westbound left turn is having problems . And the question was asked earlier about the need for signalization at the previous meeting and it 's technically warranted . You I could put a signal in there and it can justified . It would improve the operation . With the improvements to TH 101 , you would buy yourself some time for that . If you didn 't do anything today , the volumes are out there I to justify a signal but pulling 250 peak hour trips out- of that intersection would obviously improve it and buy you a few years to the point where maybe those improvements would fall into the category that they would go with the 170 ,000 square feet . The intersection of 78th Street and TH 101 , once it 's straighten out however , because the traffic is now shifted onto TH 101 and now TH 101 becomes a mainline , what 's left back on 78th Street is the minor movement . You have a T intersection with 78th 11 Street and TH 101 . When that roadway improvement is made , that Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 26 intersection will meet signal warrants . I don 't know if that 's been discussed . The geometrics looked pretty good from the plan as far as accommodating a signal but I don 't know if that was part of the plan or not . Krauss: To the best of my knowledge it wasn 't . There 's a signal on TH 5 but there was not a signal initially for the 101 and 78th Street intersection . Workman : Which intersection? ' Krauss: The new TH 101 and 78th Street . . .will meet signal warrants now . Workman: I thought it always did . Horn: Probably wouldn 't today . Denny Eilers : Well the volumes are going to shift themselves . Now you probably have a few more turns and less thrus and in the future you 'll have ' more thru traffic . It 's a matter of conflicts , how they 're organized . Now we 're not , just because an intersection technically meets the warrants does not mean that one is necessary required to be installed and you 're likely ' to get sued if one isn 't . That 's a discretionary thing . One' of the first things they teach you in traffic engineering when you 're in college is that signal warrants are a tool where the traffic engineer can keep a signal from being put in if he doesn 't want one to go in there . But if you really !' want one to go in there for operational reasons , you can justify it . It 's not intended as an absolute . It 's a guideline and- the term warrant is actually probably a poor choice of words for that . So the thing to do of II course would be to monitor it after the roadway construction gets done to make sure that , we 're doing forecasting here . It 's not an exact science . There 's a lot of personal perception in what 's a good route and it may take time for people to redistribute themselves after the roadway improvements II are made . So the first thing to do is keep making periodic machine tube counts out there and watch it . And likewise , you could monitor the 78th Street and Great Plains intersection to find out what happens there . But II if nothing is changed and nothing is planned to be changed , but of course it is with the TH 101 improvement , 78th Street and Great Plains would benefit significantly from having a signal . Now on the flip side of that , one of the justifications for a 4 way stop on an interim basis is if you meet a signal warrant and the way the manual words that is if signals are warranted and cannot be installed immediately 4 way stops can be used on an interim measure . As I mentioned before when we were out here , the I disadvantage of a 4 way stop is that it often destroys the flow downstream for the next few intersections and degrades the gap availability at those intersections . Now Paul had asked us in a meeting we had a week or so ago II to give some consideration to the west end of town and what to do £here . We would view , obviously there 's some problems getting out onto the road particularly in the morning but we would view an installation of a 4 way stop on the west end of town as a stop gap measure . And I think care would have to be taken and maybe a lot of open discussion about what intersection should get it . The furthest east one would be the best one to try to benefit the morning traffic . It 's a matter of focusing the traffic in the II I Hou_in and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 27 I neighborhood to use that 4 way stop . That 's primarily what the benefit is I to serve the residential area to the north and to get the traffic to funnel into one intersection . So for the morning , the optimum intersection is probably Laredo . But on the other hand , in the evening that would , a 4 way stop at Laredo would destroy any gaps you would have at Market or Kerber . I I realize that putting a signal in for a city like Chanhassen , for any city , their first signal , is really a major undertaking because you have to have a whole area of maintenance that you have to be involved with . You I have power costs . We 're putting this first signal in in Woodbury and Woodbury 's a pretty good sized city but there isn 't even one non-MnDot signal in all of Washington County . Washington County doesn 't have any I signals of their own . Woodbury doesn 't have any signals of their own . The only signals over there are owned by MnDot and they 're into some sort of a research project to decide if they can let a contract to do all this maintenance . Have some sort of a super group of communities that are going II to get together and maintain signals . Now you 're in Carver County , except for a small piece is in Hennepin . I don't know , Hennepin County does do signal maintenance for cities on a contractual basis . Now because you 're I partly in Hennepin County , whether they would come into Carver County and do some of that work for you , I think you 'll have to investigate that . You don 't think so? IHorn : They put a park in for us . Bohn : When 78th Street was constructed , did we put any utilities in for a IIsignal? Ashworth: The public conduit is in . Everything is in for the signals . IIDenny Eiler : Well that 's a fairly compact intersection and it 's small and it 's a T so it would be a fairly inexpensive signal , as signals go . Not that they 're ever cheap . IIChmiel : Can I ask you a quick question? You mentioned by having a 4 way stop you would not have the proper amount of gappage as you would with a II controlled intersection . That is proceeding on down from Market , Laredo , Kerber , all the way down to Powers . What would happen if you put 4 way stops at the other intersections? How would that affect or how would Ithat work? Denny Eiler : Well from a capacity standpoint , it would work . From a driver irritation standpoint , it would be pretty bad . And then the problem I does arise when you do want to put one of the signals , one of the intersections gets to be signalized , it 's really tough to operate 4 way stops a block away from a signal . . .4 ways stop . That 's the danger of doing 1 that . Not necessarily there 's inherently a big accident problem but I mean there are a lot of public opinion and driver opinion to deal with when you do that . IChmiel : You can correct that by just putting up the stop signs , 2 way stop . 1 II I Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 28 1 Denny Eiler : That 's not to say that hasn 't been done . I 'm just cautioning you on that . I mean we can look at the volumes and say we think this I intersection should get the 4 way stop or this intersection get the 4 way stop but I realize there are a lot of circulation issues within the city " and who you want to serve with that first 4 way stop . And frankly , a lot II of it depends on when the shopping center gets developed . I mean if the shopping center were to be in by the end of the year , I think the thing to do would be to get a signal on Market . In the meantime , between now and then , selecting one of those intersections for a 4 way stop would not be out of line . I 'm not here to say that . I 'm just warning you what the consequences are . You 've certainly got the volume and the leeway to do that . Now we took a look at the operations of a possible signal at Great II Plains and 78th concerning left turn lanes and the storage capabilities . There is a very short eastbound left turn lane but what we would propose to do , as far as the signal operation , would be to set it up so that it would be a traffic actuated signal . That means there would be detectors placed on the approaches . And we would propose that the left turn, east bound to north bound or east bound , left turn would be at the end of the north/south II greens . So what you would have is , if the signal starts out in an all red position , the first green would be the northbound thrus and the southbound thrus . And as soon as there was a gap in that accumulated traffic going northbound , then you would bring up the left turn arrow . So the intersection would more or less rest with the eastbound two movements being the preferred movements . You could also add a right turn arrow that would handle the westbound rights at the same time the eastbound lefts are on . Chmiel : That center median too , you mentioned in here would have to be cut back about 12 feet? Denny Eiler : I don 't know if we ever did get the final construction plans . I There was some talk that there were a few minor field changes made and the drawings we had maybe weren 't the most up to date . Did you ever take a look at those? I think Todd you were the one that made the comment some months ago . Gerhardt : . . .but there were changes made out there . . . ' Denny Eiler : But with that operation , the left turn lane itself would not be a problem . The average back up there would be about 3 vehicles and it II looks like you could get 4 cars in there comfortably . We also were worried about the westbound to southbound left turn . That would be of some concern that that might , it looks like it could handle 3 vehicles there I before you start pinching off the westbound right . But the trick to that would be to keep the intersection timing really tight so the cyclings are short . And by having detectors in and setting, what you do on an actuated ' signal is you set a gap value that ends in green . The absolute minimum usually goes down to like 2 seconds . That 's the old 1 car length pex 10 mph rule of thumb . So you could play around with that setting and for whatever you wanted and then you could control the cycling there . The shorter cycle length there . Shorter cycle lengths allow the storage to work there . And then also reduces delays . The disadvantage of having short cycle lengths is you have a lot more stops but that 's not a problem IIHousing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 29 II because the speeds are all low here . So you can operate that on a minimum Idelay manner . Chmiel : I 'm just thinking . With Great Plains coming off of TH 5 , TH 101- as well , if we were to put that controlled intersection within our I downtown , would that existing controlled intersection on TH 5 and 101 , once 101 changes , would that be removed? Because then you 're going to go to Kerber with a controlled intersections that you have presently which is Ialso going to blend in with TH 101 . Right? Denny Eiler : Are you talking about after TH 101 's relocated? IChmiel : Yes . Denny Eiler : Well the volumes that we forecast here do reflect the I relocation of TH 101 . Now initially when 101 's relocated , of course the volumes out there today will go down . I 'm not sure that we fully understand when that 's going to happen . IIWorkman: But if I 'm going to go westbound , I 'm coming down TH 101 and I stop at the new light . Won 't I be able to just shoot right into I downtown . It seems to me the configuration showed at least a right turn . I mean I could go right into downtown whether there 's a signal at TH 101 or not . IChmiel : A yield you mean? Krauss : It diminishes the value of . . . IWorkman: Or , if I 've got to stop there anyway , now I 'm thinking about what I should do , wouldn 't I go to TH 5 versus downtown? I don 't know if that , I 'm convinced that that stops , you know what I mean? IKrauss : I guess intuitively I agree with you . That 's sort of clarified here . I always thought the benefit of relocating TH 101 on downtown I traffic has probably been understated . I mean the traffic 's clearly still going to be there and it 's going to go. . .anyway . In terms of deviating trips , unless you 're going to continue southbound on the new TH 101 anyway I or you 're really going west or something like that , you might as well still come into town . Horn: I think Tom 's point is , and I think it 's a good one , is if you don 't I restrict the free flow down TH 101 to the TH 5 intersection and you know that the next intersection or so beyond a right turn off from TH 101 trying to go through town is a stop light , that gives you a lot more incentive to Igo on down to TH 5 . Krauss: If you 're slowing down the movement of traffic through downtown because of signals . IWorkman: But that second light , presumably at West 78th Street and Great Plains would be another right so I could take another right . We 've got to I II • I Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 30 get a left turn in there somehow . We 've got to head them around the Medical Arts building . ' Horn: You don 't have to necessarily assume though that that right turn is going to be automatic at Great Plains without a stop . I mean that wouldn 't !' have to be a yield situation . Workman : We could make it no turn on red you mean? Horn: No , it could be just a signalized intersection . Workman : But you 'd still have to stop at that light and see that nobody 's I coming and shoot . So really you could do that twice . Horn : If you allow a right turn on red . If you don 't allow a right turn on red . Bohn: There 's a stop sign there now and they don 't stop for it anyway . Horn: Well nobody stops . We have so damn many stops signs that people ignore them . Denny Eiler : That 's the other problem with the proliferation of 4 way stops . Now what you 're proposing to use 4 way stops for is an entirely different matter than what some communities do when they try to exercise I speed control with them . I mean there 's a street in Golden Valley that 's got 10 intersections , 7 of which have a 4 way stop and it 's a State Aid street which is kind of a joke but , you go through there and the speeds between the stop signs are 35 mph . I mean they 're trying to get people to I drive 25 and it 's spinning wheels and getting up to speed because people feel they 've got to make up all that lost time at those stop signs . So there 's an art to doing that . It 's not that you can 't do it but there 's an !' art and as far as operating that signal in a manner that manages traffic flow in downtown , that 's done all the time . I mean if you want to control right turns in order to insure that you 've have downstream gaps , banding right turns on red , doing signal timing , things like that , that 's a laudable goal . I mean you can't just look at one intersection and say this is got to be operated at it 's maximum efficiency . I mean you 're spending a lot of money out there for that device . You might as well have it affect all couple of intersections . Horn: It 's becoming clear to me from looking at this that if we 're going to have a signal light , it should be Great Plains and West 78th . Just from II a lot of things it seems to me to make sense . Ashworth: I think it makes sense as well in terms of , they can put arms out over the roadway with little arrows and people who are not used to downtown , I think the size of that intersection , that 's where part of the confusion comes about . If you 've got the arms out over there with the II green arrow , as they 're coming up they say oh , that 's the way I should be going . Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 1S , 19n1 - Page 31 Denny Eiler : Plus you also have the opportunity to mount signs on those ' arms too . That might help you out in some other directional things . Maybe it 's confusing now that you 've broken the pattern of West 78th Street and people aren 't sure when they go around that curb if they 're still on 78th Street or something else . You can put a little directional signing on there too . Those' 'are all good things you can do . Horn: I think , especially based on Tom 's argument , I 'd be hard pressed to • ' push for one at the new TH 101 and West 78th intersection . Chmiel : Maybe we can get MnDot to absorb 50% of that . Horn : Well I think that 's what we should do is install it while it 's still TH 101 so tH State would pay for it . Denny Eiler : Well based on entering legs , they 'd pay for two-thirds . Horn: What 's that? ' Ashworth: That 's a temporary state road though . I mean we haven 't gotten dollar one out of them . IDenny Eiler : But usually when they do a turn back , they meet all past obligations on one of those . I know we got rid of , I worked at MnDot and we got rid of part of TH 101 on the north end and we did a bunch of things I before we got rid of it . There was a big general swap with Hennepin County and a lot of stuff didn 't get done because Hennepin County gave us some liabilities too but generally when a road is turned back . Now being that I it 's a temporary state highway , that 's always a stickler . Supposedly MnDot can spend money for safety issues and a signal counts as that . Now you may not be able to demonstrate a hazard because the intersection would be I dramatically changed but that is really not a true major capital cost that they 're limited to on a temporary trunk highway because we put signals on TH 101 further north at a couple locations . IAshworth: Will you go over with me when we go knock on their door? Denny Eiler : Sure , I ' ll go over there . IWorkman: The key term is get rid of . He said it twice . They got rid of it . They got rid of it . I Horn: Just tell them you 'll sic the coalition on them if they don 't give you a light . I Denny Eiler : From their point of view , and we worked some on their 20 year plan , they really have no business operating highways that have any access or orientation to them at all . I mean they should be operating the major ' arterials and not roadways like , TH 101 is a county road . I mean that 's the way it should be . I don't know what sort of arrangements are going to be made for the turn back in this area because you 're dealing with two counties , and two cities at least . Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 32 Gerhardt : We could have some of the downtown businessmen put signs on there . Workman : I 'm all for that , which brings up my next topic . _ Last night I was at the , well I think one of the reasons that we 're doing this is because the HRA has been so successful at downtown and Don Ashworth and Todd and everybody . We 've been successful for bringing people down there . There 's not a damn thing to buy downtown but everybody 's down there hanging- around and last night and yeah , today we began a process of moving my small , humble office into the Medical Arts building just like every free enterprising young man wanting to make a living for his poor sickly children . I wanted a sign , a little sign and I 'm still working on it and it looks like we might be able to get things worked out , right Paul? But I was chomping at the bit last night at the Planning Commission meeting because of a clashing of philosophies and I kept thinking about the HRA and what would the HRA , what are we trying to do? And of course I had this report in mind and everything else like that and there 's a light at Kerber , there 's a light at Market and about 100 feet away there 's another one , 150 feet away at Laredo and bing , bing , bing we 've got 5 lights all the way down the road . We 're doing all of this and we 're taking out medians and we 're widening it and then we 're trying to restrict it and my concern as a downtown business person is that traffic is good . No matter what kind , although it can get out of hand . Let 's face it . People can get killed bud' traffic is good . Even if they 're just driving through and they see Bernie 's chainsaw sign , somewhere in their mind they know that there 's a place where you can buy chainsaws or get one fixed or related other businesses . So when people are driving through , it 's nice to have that traffic . So my point is , we want the traffic but we want it to be reasonable and controlled' and safe but we don 't want to shut it off and make it unreasonable and ridiculous almost . Are you listening to me? Robbins : You mean like Hopkins? Workman: Well yeah , or like St . Cloud . You know I spent some time in St . Cloud . They built this magnificent railroad . You got on the damn thing . They spent I don 't know how many millions doing it and then undoing it . I And maybe we 're in the process of that and geez , you go around this thing . You got on . I think they 're in the process of getting it , they got it fixed now . But you get on this road and that 's it . You 're gone all the way around town . Horn: We understand what you 're saying . You just want to keep room for the paying customers . , Workman: Right . We want to keep room for the people that want to buy things downtown and get things downtown as we get more things down there II and make it friendly to be down there so I guess I 'm saying , I would like to be conservative . I don't like the idea of even putting up a signal . We probably need one but signals are , unless somebody can show me , but due to , the State guidelines they 've got to be so high and everything else . They 're not attractive . They 're just not good looking and they ruin . Chmiel : Maybe we can get different kinds of standards . , Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 33 Denny Eiler : Yeah , there 's a whole variety of oles out there . MnDot 's P of s truss type arms that you see , I mean you obviously see every intersection ' in Hennepin County where they have the single arm that 's curved . There are straight arm versions of that . There are versions that you can do things without even using arms . I guess it 's a question of whether you want to do ' some signing and some other things . I 've seen different design pedestals where they 've mounted them up high but not hanging them out over the road . You can do all sorts of things . But MnDot 's arms are designed to handle massive amounts of signage . They 're interested in signing their junctions . That 's why they 're huge like that . To handle the wind loads and handle the signs . ' Workman: My final point is that , as you look at TH 5 it does teardrop below West 78th and downtown for a reason , because West 78th used to be the way you 'd go . There was no TH 5 . There was no by-pass and so they kind of ' asked for that and there 's definitely traffic going around town . They 're not all coming through town . But now we 're back to that point where we 're trying to get them out of downtown again and now we 're going to try some other thing . The businesses downtown are still giggling a little bit about ' the road downtown and the medians and the difficulties and everything else . And Bernie 's building comes into this and where are you going and what are you trying to do and it 's still confusing . I 'd like to get it fixed but ' I 'd like to say let 's make sure that we are fixing it and not creating a new problem . Is that possible? I don 't know . I Robbins : With that intersection by the clock tower , has anybody looked at redesigning that whole intersection? I still think it 's a poorly designed intersection . ' Denny Eiler : Well we were asked to review that and we 're speaking ill of another consultant here so that 's kind of a professional criticism thing hut . IWorkman: Feel free . I Denny Eiler : Our observation initially was that this is what happens when you let landscape architects call the shots . I mean as an engineer that was my impression of that , and I work with some landscape architects and they 're not all the same . Some of them are real egotistical like some of I the traffic engineers I know are too but it was designed .primarily to handle automobile traffic . And while it technically has all the curves and stuff to be able to do that , most people aren't used to driving on roads I that are strictly designed for cars . They 're used to driving on roads that were designed for trucks and people get used to that . Having large cars and not crisply driving and things like that . If you want to see a road I that 's strictly designed for automobiles , drive in a parking garage . Those roadways inside a parking garage are designed just for cars . So what you have is an intersection that was squeezed down a little bit so it 's very difficult for a truck to get through there and so there 's a certain I percentage of drivers that also have some difficulty . Plus because of the curvature , because of the tightness of the intersection , the trees , there 's probably just one too many tasks that are asked of the driver when he gets to that intersection . And that 's one extra one and I don 't know whether Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 34 it 's the trees , the curvature , the tightness of the intersection or the fact that maybe the heavy movements aren 't the ones that are favored there but something just doesn 't sit tight with the average driver going through there . I don 't know which one thing it is . Perhaps signalizing will resolve what , it takes that one decision that the driver has to make out of the loop . • Robbins : Wouldn 't it be a safer intersection if it was just a plain T intersection? Right now it 's not a T intersection because the cars coming II from the north on TH 101 , they go right through that stop sign now and continue down 78th Street like it was before they put the curve in the road there . Denny Eiler : Yeah . When you have a flat angle like you 're talking about going westbound , it is very difficult to convince drivers that they are making a right turn . They 're not just making . ' Robbins: I mean people are coming from the north , going down TH 101 . They 're going to the , say the bank . That stop sign is worthless . Denny Eiler : Right . Yeah , that 's been a problem . I operated an intersection in Wayzata that we had problems , which was signalized but we I had problems with people flying through the crosswalk . They had a green light and they were technically making a right turn but the angle was so flat , that they were not really yielding to people in the crosswalk . They thought people in the crosswalk were walking across on a red light . So those wide angle intersections are a problem . Any time you have an intersection on a curve , you 've got some problems . Robbins : Well if it was a straight T , you wouldn 't have that curve in there . If they came more at an angle straight towards the . Denny Eiler : You 're talking about replacing it back the way it was . ' Robbins: No . Denny Eiler : That 's right . Great Plains was moved over a little bit . It used to come further up east . Well obviously there was some other agenda that was tryi-ng to be accomplished when that was designed that way and it looked to me like you were trying to break that pattern .- I guess that was the goal at the time . What we found from doing the forecast , and doing this license plate study is that while the 250 or so vehicles we might keep I out of downtown , or encourage to go elsewhere by straightening out TH 101 , is a pretty good size number today . It 's really going to pale by comparison when Chanhassen 's fully developed. That 's not to say you shouldn 't do it . But the Volume of thru traffic as a percentage of the total traffic coming into downtown is going to continue to drop as more and more development comes on line and that 's really I guess the point maybe Tom was trying to make . That ultimately most of the traffic on 78th Street is going to be going to destinations there , which is good for the downtown business community . I think you 'll see that , we 've been doing some work in Wayzata and there were some concerns about the lakefront in Wayzata . Whether the traffic should be on there or not on there and the volume is 11 II Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 35 way down after Wayzata was by-passed, But it 's down really to the hard I core drivers who want to go to destinations down there . You don 't see anybody going from Navarre to Minneapolis by way of downtown Minneapolis* anymore , unless they want to stop there in the first place . I mean some of I the locals still think that 's going on because it 's always been that way but the last 20 years it hasn 't been that way . The counts show that . The thru traffic that 's going through town now , some of that can be gotten out of town but it 's going to be a small number in the future , as a percentage Iof the total . Horn: Any other questions? IWorkman: I think the report shaped out nicely . I think we were kind of wondering where and how it was going but I think it 's good hard data that I we can use and choose to ignore . Whatever we want to do with it . So I felt a lot better once we got this copy and the way it was sitting . It really analyzes the situations and I guess the summary is really the , we still got a mess down there and we 've got a mess to fix and we 're not sure Iwe can fix it but . Horn : I think the staff letter sums it up well . At least the impression I I got from the staff letter is that probably some of the changes aren 't quite as dramatic , or the recommendation for changes aren 't quite as dramatic as a lot of people believed that we would need . Which is kind of encouraging . I Ashworth: Before Dennis leaves , in my own mind we really do need to signalize that Great Plains and 78th Street intersection . I don 't know how long before we do it . I think the need is there right now . If I listen to I the HRA/Council , they would like to try not putting signals on the other intersections and going with 4 way stops as some type of interim solution . Where I 'm having a problem is , if you put it at Kerber , a 4 way stop , you •' will benefit the people coming out on Kerber . People in the morning but you 're not going to help anyone on Laredo because all that 's going to do is just create that gap and almost make it impossible to get out on Laredo . Similarly , coming back in the evening , you 're going to be flying through I there . All of the cars coming from the east and then you 're going to have this gap situation . It 's going to be really bad . So then I said , well put the 4 way stop at Laredo but see that 's not going to really help Kerber . I I guess where I came down to it in my own mind is , if I were doing it , I 'd have put it in both . 4 way stop at both Kerber and Laredo . IHorn : I wouldn 't put it in either . I 'd put the stop light in at Great Plains and West 78th Street and then wait until we got our development done . Wait until we got the intersection changed and then find out what we really need to do beyond that . I think 4 way stops in an interim are bad . II think they 're going to really screw up the traffic . Denny Eiler : If you have an isolated intersection of two equal roadways , I where you 're not going to impact the surrounding intersections , that 's a good place for a 4 way stop . I Ashworth: . . .recommendation though in terms of , which way would you go with the different scenarios? I Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting April 18 , 1991 - Page 36 I Denny Eiler : Well I think I would follow . . .but you could do this as a staged thing . I mean to rush in there , I agree . I think the signal is the I way to go . Put that in and then see . I - also think I would wait until TH 101 was relocated and see how things spread out . A 4 way stop can be put up in an afternoor so that 's , as I understand it there really hasn 't been a II major accident . It 's just a delay . Now I 'm not sure how the circulation works to the north. If you put one in on Kerber where they can get over at all in the neighborhood . Krauss: Not very effectively . Robbins: If you put a semifore in at Great Plains and 78th Street , that 's II going to attract people to have a crosswalk there . Right now that intersection is not designed for a crosswalk . Ashworth: I think I totally agree and I think that you would agree right? t A crosswalk should not be in that intersection . Denny Eiler : Well not on the west side . You can certainly cross the north II leg and then go across the south . East leg and the- south leg . Whatever . But -the west side is going to be where all the action is . Because of the flat angle , you may have problems . . . Robbins: People always definitely go across where the semifores are because they figure they 're safe . Children on bikes are , people walking are going to cross wherever there 's a light because they figure that 's a safe place to cross because the cars are going to have to stop to let them across . I tried to cross in front of Pauly 's and it 's supposed to be a crosswalk there and nobody stops . You could be out in the middle of that I intersection and become road kill . Denny Eiler : One of the comments that , when we had our discussion here a week or so ago , was that Don was asking about whether the whole 78th Street I project made any , I don 't know if the word was make any sense or anything like that but I said the one thing you have done out here by putting that ' median and doing all that work is you solved the problem of left turn access into . Maybe you haven 't solved it if you 're in the business community but you 've addressed that and got that out of the way . That 's usually the last thing that gets resolved in areas , business districts is what to do about left turns . And with that median there , you 've restricted • that to a few locations . It 's now controlled and I think the issue of widening it and adding extra lanes on the outside at a later date is going to be a battle in itself but the real battle , and we 're doing that in Wayzata , some of the stuff there now , is fighting that need that businessmen have to have those left turns into their individual driveways and you already won that battle . So I think you 've gotten a good product • out there . There 's no such thing as a finished road in the first place . So it 's just a question of whether you bought your money 's worth for a long enough period of time and I think that the numbers indicate that you 're II going to get some more use out of that road the way it is before it starts needing some tweaking here and there . That median down the middle and those turn slots are a good deal . I 'll tell you that . • Housing and Redevelopment Authority Meeting IApril 18 , 1991 - Page 37 I Robbins : With that semifore at Great Plains Blvd , what are you going to do for the pedestrians who are going to try to cross at that? They 're going to try to cross there . I can guarantee it with the signal lights . It 's going to be the safest place for them , assuming that 's going to protect them . Denny Eiler : Well the thing to do there , you could put a separate I pedestrian movement only where the other movements that are crossing , so you don 't allow the rights to curve at the same time the walk is on . That can be done too . A separate pedestrian actuated phase that would not allow ' a right turn if you do have a pedestrian that wants to cross that leg . The other way to do it would be to sign at the band and of course , how effective is signing for something like that . But MnDot does it all the time . They ' ll selectively band a crossing , particularly at interchanges Iand things like that at signals . But it 's tough to do that in a downtown areas . So the thing is , you really either got to accommodate them or you 've got to band them effectively . I don 't really know if you can band I effectively but ideally, that is not the lane to cross and if you can get them to go over to the other side . . . I ( The tape ran out at this point in the meeting . ) APPROVAL OF THE PURCHASE AGREEMENT REGARDING THE SALE OF THE ABBY BONGARD HOUSE , 100 WEST 78TH STREET . IBohn moved , Robbins seconded to approve the Purchase Agreement for the Abby Bongard House at 100 West 78th Street . All voted in favor and the motion Icarried . CONSIDER APPROVAL OF A DECLARATION OF RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS FOR LOT 1 , BLOCK 3 AND LOT 1 , BLOCK 1 , CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK SECOND ADDITION. Workman moved , Chmiel seconded to approve the Declaration of Restrictive Covenants for Lot 1 , Block 3 and Lot 1 , Block 1 , Chanhassen Lake Business Park , Second Addition . All voted in favor and the motion carried . APPROVAL OF MARCH BILLS. 1 Workman moved , Chmiel seconded to approve the HRA Accounts Payable for March , 1991 as presented . All voted in favor and the motion carried . 1 Robbins moved, Workman seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. ISubmitted by Don Ashworth Executive Director ' Prepared by Nann Opheim