6.5 Ordinance allowing sale of cigarette from behind the counter only oF
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cllANHA ssEN
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690 COULTER DRIVE• P.O.BOX 147• CHANHASSEN,MINNESOTA 55317
I (612)937-1900• FAX(612)937-5739
• MEMORANDIIM Note: The City Council tabled
I action on this item at
TO: Mayor and City Council their February 26, 1990
meeting. If the Council
I FROM: Don Ashworth, City Manager acts to approve the ordinance
amendment, this approval
DATE: February 26, 1990 is the second and final
reading. Pr
SUBJ: Ordinance Amendment Regarding Limiting the Sale of Tobacco
to Behind the Counter Only
I ; .I had not anticipated having this item on the agenda (see
attached letter) . Both the Mayor and Councilman Workman are
correct in noting that we did publicly state that this item would
II be on the next agenda and, acco ingly, we may have a number of
people present'anticipating that would be. Don did ask that I
place this item on the agenda 40 case persons were present and/or
1 to allow the Council an opportunityto decide whether action
should occur Monday evening o :'not. '
I do not recall which Counci ember. Fought out the point that we
;Fought
should be prepared to •defen ' ourselves; if we move ahead with this
ordinance. The point was pscellent. ased on initial feedback,
I am convinced that the City will be i#ivolved in a suit regarding
I the proposed ordinance. The primary basis of the City's position
will be state law, protection of minorsand health/safety/welfare
of the community. Those opposing the C ,y will look to the
Constitution as a basis for repealing the ordinance. The issue,
I in all likelihood, -girl not stop at the county, circuit or the
state courts : At _ - - .
•
I I apologize"to °the'Coiincll''for :the:di�1emm0:X01 front ng.. you as
to whether'.to' ct� Monday evening or wait until March= i2th.
Recognizing that `' :-procedural error will only vide ammuni-
tion for opposition eiak n .such to arch ' /tl is recommended.
I do not see such 'as being all , ad uto t1itnk that the City needs
to and should take every opporfiinAty possible to alert our citi-
zens/support groups of the fight hick will be imminent and
II- the recognition that we cannot t ght the battle alone. I do not
know if the Council wishes to select $2,000, $4,000, etc., as the
cut-off point, but some maximum needs to be established. Our
II viewers, the media, and support groups need to know that we can-
not carry out this challenge alone and that we need their dollars
if we are to be successful. Accordingly, the more times that
II this item appears on to a City Council agenda, the better.
Tabling to March 12, 1990 is recommended.
16„„a..„,L,,,,LiL
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February 16, 1990
v
' Re: 1990 Cigarette Licenses
Dear v:
T .
i
Your application for a 1990 cigarette license was processed and
11 recently forwarded to you. The notice sent to you with the
application included warnings that the City would be enacting an
ordinance prohibiting sales of cigarettes via vending machines.
Those types of sales were to have ceased on or before January 1,
1990.
This letter is to inform you that the City is additionally con-
sidering further restricting cigarette sales to "behind the
counter" locations. In essence, there is to be no "self-service"
of tobacco products including cigars, packages of cigarettes,
' cartons of cigarettes, or other tobacco products.
•
In light of the fact that the City may be further restricting
1 sales and that such action has occurred after your making appli-
cation, this notice is to provide you an opportunity to request a
refund of your application fee if such restrictions cannot
reasonably be met by your establishment. A refund will be paid
' for all applicants requesting such on or before March 15, 1990.
A copy of the proposed ordinance, which was unanimously supported
during first reading, will be finally heard on March 12, 1990.
' Sincerely,
•
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Don Ashworth
' City Manager .
DA:k
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CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, PA.
Attorneys at Law
Thomas J Campbell '• i�:
II
Roger N.Knutson
Thomas M.Scott
Gary G. Fuchs (612)456-
lames R. Walston Facsimile(612)456-'
Elliott B.Knetsch
Dennis j. Unger
- February 20, 1990 II
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s
Mr. Don Ashworth
I
1
Chanhassen City Hall
II
690 Coulter Drive, Box 147
Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317
RE: Tobacco Products Ordinance 11
Dear Don:
IIEnclosed is a revised tobacco
changes requested by the City CounciloatctheomeetinCe� The
12, 1990, have been made. meeting on February
service , have In addition, the definition of self-
service
That sentence aisbunnecessary since '
devices of any remotely the last
y kind will not be allowed. a remotely controlled
IIVery truly yours,
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT I
& FUCHS, P.A.
BY: IEBK:srn Elliott B. �scv
IEnclosure • . I
FEB 2 21990 ■
4.4I t up CHANHASSEN t
Yankee Square Office III • Suite 202 • 3460 Washington Drive • Eagan,g , MN 55122
I
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4}+ CITY F •CHANHASSEN
ICARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA
ORDINANCE NO.
' AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CHAPTER 10 OF THE
CHANHASSEN CITY CODE BY ADDING PROVISIONS
REGULATING THE SALE OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS
The City Council of the City of Chanhassen ordains:
Section 1. Chapter 10, Article III of the Chanhassen City
Code is amended by adding Section 10-127 to read as follows:
I - Sec. 10-127.1 Legislative Findings and Intent.
The Chanhassen City Council finds and declares that:
(a) The Surgeon General has determined is dangerous to human health;
termined that cigarette
(b) The National Institute on Drug Abuse found that
cigarette smoking precedes and may be predictive of adolescent
' illicit drug use;
(c) Open display makes tobacco products easier to shoplift
and therefore more accessible to persons under age eighteen (18) .
I (d) The enactment of this ordinance
and is in furtherance of the health, safety,directly pertains welfare
to
' of the residents of the City, safety, general welfdrr
eighteen (18) Y. Particularly those residents under
g ( ) years of age.
' Sec. 10-127.2 Definitions.
For the purpose of Chapter 10, Article III, the following
words and phrases shall have the meanings ascribed to them in
this Section:
"Tobacco .Products" means any substance containing tobacco
leaf, including but not limited to, cigarettes, cigars, pipe
tobacco, snuff, chewing tobacco, and cigarette papers or
•
wrappers.
"Self-service Merchandising" means open display of tobacco
products that the public has access to without the intervention
of an employee.
' Section 2. Chapter 10, Article III of the Chanhassen
Code is amended by adding Section 10-128 to read: City
' r02/20/90 _
11
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Sec. 10-128. Set-Servive'Merchandising: Prohibited Sales.
II
It shall be unlawful for any person to offer for tobacco product by means of self-service merchandising. any
Section 3. Chapter 10, Section III of the Chanhassen
Code is amended by adding Section 10-130 to read: City
Sec. 10-130.1 Suspension; revocation of license.
s
The City Manager shall suspend a license issued under this
Article for a period of ten (10) days if a licensee violates any II
provision of this Article. The City Manager shall suspend a '
license for a period of twenty (20) days for a second violation.
The City Manager shall revoke a license for a third violation.
The revocation shall be for a period of one year.
Sec. 10-130.2 Appeal.
(a) Notice. If the City Manager suspends or revokes a
license, the Manager shall send to the licensee, by certified
mail, return receipt requested, written notice of the action/ and II
the right to an appeal. The aggrieved party may appeal the
1 decision of the City Manager within ten (10) days of receiving
notice of the City's action. The filing of an appeal stays the
action of the City Manager in suspending or revoking a license
until the City Council makes a final decision.
(b) Procedure. The City Council may appoint a committee of II
the Council or an independent hearing officer to hear the matter,
report findings of fact and a recommendation for disposition to
the Council. Hearings on the appeal shall be open to the public
and the licensee or applicant shall have the right to appear and
be represented by legal counsel and to offer evidence in its
behalf. At the conclusion of the hearing, the City Council shall II
make a final decision.
•
Section 4. Chapter 10, Article III of the Chanhassen City
I/Code is amended by adding Section 10-131 to read:
Sec. 10-131. Responsibility for Agents and Employees.
Every act or omission constituting a violation of any of the
provisions of this Article by an officer, director, manager, or
other agent or employee of any licensee shall be deemed and held
to be the act or omission of the licensee. The licensee shall be
punishable in the same manner as if the licensee personally
committed the act or omission.
Section 5. Chapter 10, Article III of the Chanhassen City
Code is amended by adding Section 10-132 to read: y
` -2-
Sec. 10-132. Penalty.
A person convicted of an
guilty of a misdemeanor. 1' violation of this Article shall be
' Section 6. This ordinance shall be effective
May 1, 1990. immediately on
PASSED '
SSED AND ADOPTED by the City Council of the City of
Chanhassen this day of
, 1990.
ATTEST:
Don Ashworth, Clerk Mana er
g Donald J. Chmiel, Mayor
(Published in the Chanhassen Villager on
1990. )
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�._ ___. •___ _._. ♦Thy
CITY OF ee__A4,41
cHANHAssEN
•
690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 1
(612) 937-1900
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MEMORANDUM
TO: MAYOR, COUNCILMEMBERS, DON ASHWORTH
FROM: TOM WORKMAN t `„'
DATE: FEBRUARY 20, 1990
SUBJ: NEW SMOKING ORDINANCE 1
This ordinance remains a great idea. I have enclosed a very
recent article from the Star Tribune which I wanted to make sure II
you would see. The marketing of cigarettes (a controlled
substance) is an abused privelege we can do something about and I
hope we will. Thanks! ! !
•
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RECEIVED 1
FEB 211990
CITY OF CHANHASSI
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ISA. Saturday/February 121990/Star hlbune •
I Plan recommend
marketing s
1 cigarette to young white women
Washington Post •With no education beyond high different categories of consumers,"
I Washington,D.G school, the statement said. "Dakota is no
The RJ. Reynolds Tobacco Co. •Whose favorite television roles are
different. It a male brand or a
plans soon to introduce a brand of "Roseanne" and "evening soap op-
' cigarette that targets young, poorly era(bitches)"; Reynolds officials would not elabo-
educated,white women—whom the
company calls"virile females." ■Whose chief rate,and it could not be determined
aspiration is "to get whether the detailed marketing strat-
married in her early 20s"and spend egy prepared for the company by
The goal is to capture the lucrative her free time "with her boyfriend Promotional Marketing Inc., had
1 market among 18- to 24-year-old doing whatever he is doing." been accepted by the company.
women,the only group of Americans
whose rate of smoking continues to The marketing study for Dakota Dr. Louis W. Sullivan, Secretary of !
increase. The competition for that shows how the cigarette was designed Health and Human Services, said '
I group has become intense.
to"replace Marlboro as the bread of yesterday,"It is especially repr+ehen-
chNice among female smokers 18- sible to lure young people into smok-
The adcampaign focuses on a certain 24. ing and potential lifelong nicotine
group of women whose favorite pas- • addiction."
I times, according to the marketing Reynolds acknowledged plans to
plan, include "cruising," "partying" market Dakota yesterday. "And the risk that smoking specifi-
and attending "hot-rod shows" and tally poses for women adds another
. "tractor pulls"with their boyfriends. But of the marketing study,the coin- tawdry dimension to any cigarette-
pany said in a statement, "Reynolds marketing effort aimed at younger•
Disclosure of the marketing recom- does not know what these documents women." Sullivan led the fight
mendations comes just three weeks contain. Reynolds does not know if against Uptown.
after Reynolds was forced by strong they are authentic or fabricated....
opposition to cancel plans to test- If they are authentic, they represent Tobacco use has become the largest•
I . market "Uptown," a brand of ciga- stolen, proprietary information be- preventable cause of death and dis- -
atte aimed at blacks. - longing to R.I. Reynolds,and which ease among U.S. women, killing
would be of great value to our coin- more than 125,000 each year,accord-
Reynolds plans to test the"Dakota" . petitors." ing to health statistics. Studies have
in Houston in April. The extensive shown that women who smoke one
I proposals for"Project V.F,"for virile Reynolds said that Dakota is not to four cigarettes a day have two to
- female,describe the preferred"Dako- aimed solely at women. "Different 'three times the risk of heart attack as
ta"smoker as a woman:. products are designed to (appeal to) women who don't smoke.
. .
II
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IIIIINSINE Audi=
loomma ammailimw MINNESOTA— GROCERS Recia:
A S S O C I A T I O N
•
JOEL R.HOlUWQ CAE
President
s
February 27, 1990
Councilman Tan Workman
690 Coulter Drive
P.O. Box 147
Chanhassen, Mrs 55317
Dear Tom:
We regret that you had to cancel the meeting with us to evaluate the 1
perceived problem of minors stealing tobacco products in convenience stores in
Chanhassen.
We had hoped that our meeting scheduled for 8:00 a.m. Wednesday, February
g ,
28, 1990 could have been expanded to include other members of the city council
to constructively assess the problem, collect data and develop a plan of I
action.
I was concerned when you said that you need to keep your distance because
of a pending/possible lawsuit. For the record, there is no lawsuit and none
has been it forth.
At the council meeting Monday, February 26, 1990 I offered to work with you
and other members of the city council to address the problem of tobacco use by
minors. I remain committed to working with you and others at a time that you
deem appropriate. I
Toan, I look forward to speaking with you soon in an effort to continue
working together. I
• erel i
J-•-1 R. oiland, CAE 1
• esi• .t
cc/Don Ashworth - - ---
Jim Larkin
MAR 011993
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
533 ST. CLAIR AVENUE • ST. PAUL, MN 55102 • (612)228-0973 • MN WATS 1-800-652-9030
City Council Meeting - February 26, 1990
II I 1 ` Councilman Bovt moved, Councilman WbrkRan seconded to table the final readin g of
Zoning Ordinance Amendment dealing with lot frontage and access by private
I driveway and the sumnary ordinance for publication purposes. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
IIVISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Bill Loebl, 7197 Frontiet Trail: Honorable Mayor and the City Council members.
1 On February 6, 1990 there was a public information meeting for the residents
of Frontier Trail who would be affected by the proposed reconstruction of the
road. The preliminary plans which were shown to us that evening included a
I sidewalk on the north side of the street. Several people at the meeting
objected to the sidewalk so I decided to make a survey which I'm presenting to
you tonight in the form of a petition showing an overwhelming majority against
any sidewalk on any side of the street. On the north side there are 26 hares.
I 2 are vacant. Of the remaining 24 hones, 4 homes are for the sidewalk and 20
are against it. These 20 hones are represented by 38 signatures. On the south
side there are 22 homes. 4 of them are for a sidewalk and 18 hares are against
II it. These 18 hopes are represented by 34 signatures. In terms of total
percentages for the north and south sides combined, there are 17% for and 83%
against any sidewalk. Many of the people are angry that a sidewalk is even
being considered. Several told me they specifically moved to Chanhassen to get
away from sidewalks. Many are disturbed about the landscaping which would be
altered and they don't want it moved or altered. Some of the trees and shrubs
are so large that they cannot be moved. Nobody wants to be responsible for
keeping their sidewalk clean of ice and snow or dog feces to say nothing of the
legal liability in case of accidents on their properties. Many carnents were
. made about the relatively small number of people who would use a sidewalk which
starts nowhere and ends nowhere. Some residents are upset about people being
' able to look into their living rooms because their hares are very close to the
street. Same of then are even lower than the street and a sidewalk would bring
the walkers 10 feet closer to their homes. I also received numerous comments
II concerning the fact that people would rather wait with the reconstruction of the
road until public funds becomes available as suggested by me last year. Several
people brought up the subject of assessment if the project should proceed. I'll
II take the opportunity to remind you of the petition presented to you on December
18th which showed a large majority of the affected residents favoring the front
footage method of assessment. We understand that the construction plans will
I care before you for approval in the very near future. We respectfully request
that you listen to the overwhelming majority of the residents as indicated by
this petition and give serious consideration to the elimination of the sidewalk •
entirely from the project. Thank you.
IMayor Chmpiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else wishing to rake a visitor
presentation at this time?
CITY CODE AMENDMENT LIMITING THE
SALE OF TOBACCO FROM BEHIND THE COUNTER ONLY.
III Mayor Chmiel: We have had several presentations done by store owners within the
city. Hopefully if you have something new to add, we'll be more than happy to
listen to that. We do have the Council Minutes from that particular time so at
1
5
if City Oouncil Meeting . Yebruary 26, 1990
II•
- this time I will open the peeti�ng and those•wishing to Hake a presentation, step
forward to the microphone. Please state your nacre and your address and who you
:ray or may not be representing.
Councilman Johnson: Mr. Mayor? Before they do that, I'd like to mention that
due to quite a few different factors that are in our staff report and other
things, that there's a very large likelihood that this will be tabled tonight.
Mayor C iel: That's very likely, yes. ,
Councilman Johnson: And I think that in that light I think it'd be fair for the
people to know that this will care up again. As far as I know, it probably will
be tabled but we also would like to, you took the effort to care here. If you'd
like to say something, we are going to listen to.you tonight too. I haven't
decided completely whether I want to say anything about the actual issue tonight
or not or wait until the next meeting.
Mayor Oriel: If we do table this, this will probably be tabled until March
12th. Is there anyone who wishes to.
Jim Larkin: Mr. Mayor if I can speak. My nacre is Jim Larkin and I'm with the
firm of Larkin, Hoffman, Daley and Lindgren and I'm here on behalf of my client
the Minnesota Grocer's Association which a number of their members have come
here tonight to address the problem that is before then. I'd like to say at the
outset that it is the intent and desire of my client to work with the City on
this matter because it is a serious matter but they are very concerned that they
became a scapegoat for what may be well intention in motives but through an
ordinance which imposes an undue burden upon business in this city. With we
tonight is the President of the Minnesota Grocer's Association, Mr. Joe Hoyland
who is a former high school teacher and a high school coach and is quite
conversant with the group of people towards wham I understand this ordinance is
directed. My understanding of the purpose of the ordinance is that it is to
prevent minors from stealing cigarettes. That is the declared purpose and the
issues to which Mr. Hoyland and those who have care to be with him, and I would
urge them to be brief and I would urge the Council to listen to them tonight
because they have care and in sore cases may not be able to care back on the
12th. The first issue that they would like to address is is there in fact a
problem with theft my minors in the City of Chanhassen from merchants.
Secondly, what would be the cost of the proposed requirements. Thirdly, whether
the requiretrent is appropriate to the assumed problem. Again, Mr. Mayor I would
like to introduce Mr. Hoyland and let him at least discuss with you what he has
to present. Thank you. ,
Joe Hoyland: Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. It's a pleasure to be
able to care before you and perhaps discuss same of our concerns about your
proposed ordinance. As Mr. Larkin indicated, I have been a high school teacher,
coach. Also directed plays and things of that nature so I've seen the high
school scene from a variety of different roles and positions. Sarre of the
things that really concern me about your ordinance is that one thing is that
you're really going after store merchants within the city of Chanhassen and
you're really not going after the kids and placing some responsibility on the
kids. One thing that we always placed on our student athletes and student
performers was the fact that there are certain rules and regulations that you
must follow if you're going to participate in various activities. Let's take
6 1
11
City Council 1 eting - February 261 1990 _r_ _
I football for example. I was a high school football coach. We said that if you
smoke or drink, you're off the team. We placed clear and very demonstrable
penalties for students who actually violated some of the rules. There were many
I - others but certainly the most important one that's germane to this is if a
student was caught in the possession of tobacco products or stroking, actually
smoking, they had same real choices that they could make. Personal choices. If
they chose to do that, here's what's going to happen. Unfortunately with your
Iproposed ordinance, what you're doing is you're placing a severe burden on our
retailers. The convenience store operators in this city and to my knowledge
you're really doing nothing to address the problem or to address the whole issue
I of adolescence and smoking. I want to clarify that the Minnesota Grocer's
Association and retailers in this state who sell tobacco products are sworn by
the laws of the State of Minnesota which say that they must not sell to minors.
Wfe've instructed our retail mathers, both supermarket and convenience stores to
I abide by the law and they've indicated to us that that is their intention and
they have gone about displaying in their stores, particularly at the checkouts .
signs which say that if you're a minor, don't expect to be sold tobacco
I products. I know that same of these signs, many of these signs are here in
Chanhassen. Now what they've done and then what the legislature did this past
spring is they passed a law which placed a gross misdemeanor on clerks who sell
I tobacco products. Now what they did is they sent a clear message that if you're
caught selling, you're going to receive a higher penalty. In fact it's a higher
penalty than selling alcohol to a minor. But I guess the important thing is
that the message has been sent. Unfortunately, the action that you are
proposing to take in the city of Chanhassen is going to severely restrict a
retailer's right to merchandise their store and frankly that's a pure violation
of the freedom to be able to do what they feel is their God given right as a
retailer. Unfortunately, as I address the whole issue of minors, I think one
thing that you as a City Council should be doing is to be placing restrictions
on children and children particularly who choose to purchase or to steal
I cigarettes. Frankly the greater issue is dealing with kids who may verbalize
and say that they are stealing. That is a far greater...going to cost and it's
going to cost the consulters of Chanhassen. Unfortunately what you're going to
do is you're going to, if in fact you do pass this ordinance, you're going to
I place them in a competitive disadvantage because frankly I know kids and you
know kids and if they're going to get tobacco products, they're going to go
where they can get them. If they have to go to Eden Prairie. If they have to
' go to Minnetonka or Wayzata, they'll go. They are mobile people. They're also
very savy people and frankly anything that you do in Chanhassen, being you're
close to many other communities is going to have little effect frankly on the
I ability, if in fact they are stealing cigarettes, it's going to have little
impact on that. The whole issue of store design cares to, particularly in a
convenience store type setting, service versus self service. One of the things
that a convenience store does well is provide convenient ways in which their
I customers can get in and out quick. Another thing is if you tie up the front
end of a convenient store, frankly you cause a great deal of other constraints.
Sate of the other retailers this evening will talk about that. There's a
I situation of drive offs. If the clerk is particularly being tied down by having
to deal with a lot of different front end types of activities, there's a greater
potential for people to drive off from their gas stations. That's just one of
many things that kind of trickles down as an affect of having to be bothered in
a sense, if they so choose, to have to wait on their customers and it certainly
ties down and adds to the time that's involved in the whole transaction. I'd
like to address one other quick thing and that's the issue of the supermarkets.
II
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City Council Meeting = February 26, 1990 1
I'm aware that there are no supermarkets in Chanhassen at this time but I i.; 1-
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aware that a supermarket is caring to this community. Wat you're going to do,
if you bring this one step further is that you are going to cause a supermarket
operator to develop a central customer service type area and essentially what
that means for the customer is that they have to shop twice within a given
store. They have to make their purchase for the regular grocery items and then
they have to go to a separate counter and crake a separate purchase. I don't
brow if you have studied supermarket flow, traffic flows and shopping patterns
but I think you're going to create:i terrible constraint and as I mentioned
before, if custarers are offended by this type of thing, they can easily go to
other criunities. Frankly for any kind of community to address this kind of an
issue this way creates terrible constraints and I think it has a real negative
affect on the consumers in your community. I'll finish by saying that I think
• there's a real opportunity for you as city council members to work with
retailers. Frankly, we look at this whole issue and we're surprised that you're
approaching it in this manner. Frankly we're surprised because we haven't seen
that there's a shoplifting problem of tobacco products by minors. Frankly we
haven't seen that there's a significant problem of shoplifting of tobacco
products in the city of Chanhassen. Consequently, we have what you're
proporting as a problem, you have not shown us factual data. You haven't shown
any kind of documented evidence that there is a problem. In fact it's a
solution looking for a problem. That might sound humerous but in fact that is
really the situation. Our industry is as interested in prohibiting minors from
buying and using tobacco products as you are. I think we have a tremendous
opportunity to try to work together. Tobacco products, whether we like it or
not, are legal substances which can be purchased in the United States, including
Chanhassen and I think we tried an experiment back in the 30's, 20's and 30's I/'
with prohibiting alcohol and we found that that didn't work. The real secret to
this whole solution to creating smoking sensation is to teach people of the
negative affects of tobacco use and if that's your goal, then I would urge that
you work with us. Work with the State Health Department. In fact I serve on
Commissioner Ashton's Health Promotion Task Force. There are a lot of other
different ways that we can work to send the message that tobacco use is harmful
to your health, particularly for minors. I think we stand ready to work with
any of you at any time to address the specific concerns that you may have here
in Chanhassen. With that in mind, there axe a nx her of retailers that have
expressed interest tope that they'd like to have an opportunity to say a few
words and if I could be so bold as to call on them and they will make a few
comments on their part. I want to point out that some of these people are
people that are actually managing and working in Chanhassen and same of these
people are corporate people who axe from the companies and can tell you a little
bit about how their company operates. I think that might lend same perspective
to actually how they're approaching the sale of tobacco products to minors. The
first person I'd like to call on... I
Councilman Johnson: Mr. Mayor, before the grocers institute takes over this
meeting and conducts this meeting, could we ask you a few questions? I mean
we're not going to let you get away here real quick here. Continuously you have
said thetas need to do something about minors. That we have to control the
minors. Are you saying that the court system, the juvenile court system is
inadequate and that the prosecution through the juvenile courts, that this
council has something better than that that we can do? Give us just a
suggestion. Three or four times you've said that we should be doing something
to prosecute these minors. Swat? I
8 1
City Council l4eeting -.February 26; 1990
II 1 t.Joe Hovland: I think for starters you can enact some ordinances which•
' penalties on students. That's one thing. Put some
Councilman Johnson: So they can't be on the football team,?
' Joe Hoyland: No. I think the schools can adequately handle that. I would talk
one about financial penalties. For starters, we already have shoplifting laws
' in the State of Minnesota so that's what we have. Wle also have same
difficulties that you cannot pyblically proclaim who these kids are. I mean
they are protected. Their anonymity is there. So what can you do from a local
level? You can require that any student or any minor that is caught buying
tobacco products has to go through a program that talks about the disadvantages
of using tobacco products much like an alcohol abuse type program. I'm not that
familiar with these programs but perhaps that's something you can do on a local
' basis.
Councilman Johnson: I'd like to ask;our Attorney, can we do that on a local
basis?
Elliott Inetsch: There's nothing on the books right now either on the State
level or on the City level. There is maybe a somewhat analogous State Statute
dealing with possession of a wall amount of marijuana which specifically
authorizes the court to put offenders into a drug awareness or treatment program
depending on their level. Now their habit is. Analogizing from that and given
11 1 that the State has left the door open for cities to regulate in this area, I'd
say that wa probably could look at that. We could move in that direction in
addition to the State law penalties that already exist. We already have
shoplifting laws. I think any judge would probably be within his rights to take
someone who has stolen cigarettes and put them in that kind of a program without
having a city ordinance on that. That's just a matter of making the judges and
the prosecutors aware that that's something that you're interested in.
' Councilman Johnson: We could have an ordinance that advises the prosecutor, the
County Prosecutor and the judge to do something like that but we could not force
' the judge to do anything he doesn't want to do.
Elliott Knetsch: You cannot force the judge but you, I think you could have an
ordinance that would make that an option of a penalty. It could be a fine. It
could be this education program. You could lay out the possible penalties.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, if the parents pay the penalties, it's no fine to the
kid but I do like your idea on that and if that is, I think we ought to move
that, if that is legally feasible, we ought to move that way to do that.
• Councilman Hoyt: I'd disagree with that. I think you want to control the point
of sale.
• Councilman Johnson: Well you've got to do that too. -
II -
_ Councilman Boyt: It's like controlling 5 versus controlling 1,000. We're much
better off to control 5.
IJoe Nyland: Councilmen, you are already controlling.
9
I
City Council Meeting - February 26, 1990
Mayor Oriel: If you'd like to interrupt, please direct it back to the Chair.
- . Joe Hoyland: Oh, I'm sorry. Mr. Mayor, Councilman Hoyt. You're already doing 1
that. State law requires or actually places severe penalties on clerks who sell I
to minors so I think a gross zrdsdeReanor, up to $3,000.00 in financial penalties
plus a year in jail or something of that nature as the :cost extreme penalty, "
that sends a pretty clear message at the point of sale. Without having to
actually get into the store and say well you can't have it here. You can have
it here. I think you're already addressing that. Mr. Mayor, Councilman
Johnson. I would be willing to help you in any way that I can. I think what
you're doing here, if you can take your ideas because you're clearly ahead of a
lot of other came-unities, take it to the State Health Department. Take it to
the Anti-Smoking groups and propose that. I think it's very important that we
make a statement to young people and rake a statement as public policy makers.
On the local basis as well as the State basis that it is wrong and here are
penalties that you will suffer. I'm not conversant in legal teams as to what we
can do and what we can't do but these are a couple of ideas. Another thing that
caw to mind and this is something again that would have to be done on the State
level but one of the things that kids cherish dearly is mobility. They work
very hard to get their license and it's very possible, if it is a priority of
this cv munity and of this state that we send a clear message, then let's work
to take away kid's drivers license if they're caught perhaps after a certain
period of time with tobacco products. They do that with alcohol and same people
say that tobacco is worse than alcohol so send the clear message. 1
Mayor Oriel: The only given problem with that is that you may have 10 year
olds and 11 year olds and 12 year olds that don't have driver's licenses so that
presents a given problem,.
Joe Hoyland: Clearly Mr. Mayor and members of the Council you're concerned
about a very grave problem and we share that concern. For kids using tobacco '
products, having been a teacher, peer pressure is probably the greatest obstacle
that you're going to have to try to overcame. I'm not sure how any of us
overcame peer pressure but that to me is one of the greatest jobs you've got to
tackle and I'm not sure, I don't have the answers on that but that seems to be
one of the prime sources, particularly in the 10-11 year olds. And it is tragic
that young people like that are using tobacco products.
Councilwoman rimier: Mr. Mayor, I have a few caurents. I guess to start off
with I guess I'd like to say that I think we have a responsibility to protect
our kids and I don't want to see our kids criminalized. And you have indicated
several times here that you didn't think that there was a problem and I want to
tell you again that there is a problem. I am not going to say that my children
steal cigarettes but I have 4 teenagers and they have lots of friends and they
come over frequently and I overhear conversations that they don't think I're
hearing and I'm not going to give you any names or turn anybody in but I want
you to know that they do do it and even the owner of Brooke's was here last time
indicating that he inventoried every day and that he loses or has at least 1
carton per week unaccounted for. So we ray think that that's a small nu*ber but
it is happening and that was only one store so. I agree that we shouldn't maybe
have put too many restrictions on retailers but I would like to know how much
revenue do the retailers lost from the tobacco industry and how much do they pay
to put their displays in the stores? If we wouldn't allow this, what revenue
would you lose? i
10
11
City Council Meeting - February 26, 1990
IJoe Hoyland: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman Dialer. I'd have to let the retailers
address that question and I think they've heard that and they'll be prepared to
answer that question. However, I'm not sure that they're being paid a certain
amount to place it in a particular position has a whole lot of relevance to the
subject here. You're talking about restricting merchandising of a product. The
fact that you're talking about placement in a store has no...
' Oauncilwaran Dialer: Well I beg to differ with you because I think it's the
tobacco industry that's behind this.
IJoe Hoyland: Mr. Mayor, Councilwoman. Behind what?
Courcilwaran rimier: Behind this opposition.
' Joe Hoyland: Mr. Mayor. Councilwoman. I stand here because clearly you're
going into a retail store and you are dictating merchandising policy. I don't
I care if it's peanut butter or cereal'or milk. You are dictating merchandising
policy. That's something that is very near and dear to our people. Whether
it's tobacco products. Whether it's candy. This the first step. We do not
want to have any public body dictating merchandising policy. In fact Federal
statutes uphold that. I think you can honor that. You're talking about on a
very select basis, restraint of trade and you have to be aware of the grounds
that you're getting into. It's a whole new area.
_ Oouncilwaran Dialer: Well is it true then that the tobacco industry does indeed
pay the retailer to put the display in?
I _ Joe Hoyland: Mr. Mayor, Oouurilwaran. That may be the case with sane
retailers. It may not be the case with other retailers. I don't think we can
say blank, cold, hard fact yes they do. I would say it depends on the type of
retailer. A supermarket, big high volume supermarket operator who has a
' considerable share of the market, it's no different than being the prime time
leader in a prime time television show. They can get more money for a
' particular ad because they have demonstrated that they have a greater following.
No difference.
Mayor Chmdel: Joe, I'd just like to clarify one thing. You're saying all the
1 responsibility should be back on the kids. Maybe it should but I think this
City Council is that part of watching and knowing what we feel is right within
our canmunity. From the aspects of public health and safety of those
' individuals, I think we're charged with that as well and I think that's what
we're looking at from that aspect. Unless someone else has something else.
Councilman Hoyt: I've got a couple questions. When we have these people speak
to us, there's a couple things I'd like them, to address. Do you prosecute
people that you find with cigarettes and have stolen them from you? Then the
other one is, do you have same plan on how you're going to control or better
control the sale of cigarettes? I'm not interested in what's been called
criminalizing our youth. I think that the bigger problem is the police won't
pick them up anyway but we have control over how these things are going to be,
1 I or could have or how they're going to be distributed. I have a question for you
specifically. Did your organization lobby one way or another on the changed
State penalty for sale of cigarettes to minors?
11
City Council Meeting - February 26, 1990
I/
I. a
mi
Joe Hoyland: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Hoyt. We were unaware that that particular
legislation was even happening. We were as surprised as any. Had we known
about it, we certainly would have had some opinions. Frankly it has been
enacted. We were the only organization in the State to actively develop flyers
and posters that could go at the check stands. In fact, probably the State
proponent of anti-smoking, Jeanne Wiggur, called us and praised us for our
actions. Clearly we got that message out sooner than anybody else and certainly
before the effective date of that new law.
Councilman Hoyt: Okay. My final comment is, I'm glad we're talking about this
issue. It's taken a lot of time but it's probably a good one to hear both sides I
on. From my standpoint and I think some of the other people on the Council, I'm
not particuarly interested in entering into a test case to see if this is legal
but I am very interested in seeing the store owners became more involved in
controlling the sale of cigarettes. Thank you. That's all I've got.
Mawr Ch del: Jay?
Councilman Johnson: Mr. Mayor, just to follow
j up slightly on what you were
saying. I believe this is not trying to restrict merchandising. This is to
define what we believe responsible merchandising is in this city and whether we
believe the tobacco industry is targeting youth and people near the age of 18 or
below or whatever that is. Rind of side issues and all on this thing but what
is the responsible way to market this product. It's a product that's supposed
to be restricted to certain classes of people, i.e. those people 18 years old or ,
older and therefore I think that it's sale should be somewhat restrictive. Not 1
set out just like candy or pop. The other, are you familiar with Ram Thumb and
their policy? I was, this weekend at a Tame Thumb store in Prior Lake and they
Peet this ordinance today. Right now. As is. I asked their manager, I said
wow. He says that's our policy. When he said our polio, that could have been
his store policy or that fray be Tam Thumb corporate. I haven't been to look at
any other Toms Thumbs to see if that was that way. I went to a PDQ today. P)Q
was extremely close to meeting this. They have no sales. I don't see it being
that, they need a little plastic shield around their display on the counter so
that it can't be reached from the front but other than that, they were in
caipliance with this ordinance as is. We're'talking almost no cost. Here are
two responsible merchandisers that are doing it.
Joe Hovland: Mr. Mayor, Councilman Johnson. I'd like to address those because
you're right. I spoke with Wally Pettit who happens to be the owner of 190 some
Ram, Thirbs in the state of Minnesota and Wisconsin and I asked him what his
practice was on this and he said that they in fact do put all of their tobacco
products behind the counter and I'm not sure if they're talking about every
single thing including chewing tobacco and that type of thing. I'm not sure but 11 be just said tobacco, cigarettes.
Councilman Johnson: In Prior Lake, the chewing tobacco and the pipe tobacco and
all that stuff axe behind the counter. '
Joe Hoyland: The reason that he stated that they do that is because of
security. Their own internal policies. With 190 stores, he can't be out at
11.1
every store watching them. As a consequence, they simply say from a security,
km a loss prevention standpoint, we're just going to do this. Now they made
12 1
1
,City Council Meeting ng - February 26, 1990
11 I that decision voluntarily: i }'
Councilman Johnson: So there nest be sate shoplifting of tobacco going on if
190 stores have made that decision.
' Joe Hoyland: Mr. Mawr, Councilman. I think what you've got is you've got a
large chain doing business in this state and they're not being forced to do
that. They're raking a clear decision on their own to enter into that type of
decision. They've got sane constraints because they can't be at every store.
Now same other people that speak here tonight are in the we situation have the
are number of stores and they could probably address why they have certain
' policies and why they have different ones. One thing that I would offer and
this nay be an alternative for you. Without having to go to the font of having
an ordinance and potentially having a test case, why not go to the retailers and
' say, we think we've got a problem with tobacco getting into the hands of minors.
Would you consider on a voluntary basis embarking on this project with us and
try to reason with people. From our standpoint you'd be setting up some kind of
' a situation where you'd say we're going to work together to address what we
think is a problem without going the step of having to enact a public policy
that may have same negative ramifications. For us and potentially for you.
' Councilman Johnson: Well I'd like to publically congratulate Tam Thumb on their
responsible merchandising. And what was the gentleman's name?
IIJoe Hoylard: Wally Pettit.
Councilman Johnson: Wally Pettit. Thank you Wally.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'll second that.
Councilman Workman: Mr. Mawr, could I rake same comments?
:1 Mawr Cdim i el: Yes Team.
' Councilman Workr'an: I guess I want to ask Jim Larkin a quick question. Jim,
does your firm and maybe this is, does your fine represent any tobacco industry
or groups?
' Jim Larkin: No. We represent the Grocer's Association but do not represent any
tobacco industry or the tobacco companies.
' Councilman Workman: Isn't your law firm representing the tobacco?
Jim Larkin: We ray have done some work at the legislature. .
' Councilman Workman: Aren't they currently working at the legislature to get
through same legislation that would disable our current vending machine
ordinance?
Jim, Larkin: They fray be involved in the vending machine ordinance. I just
don't know and I'm not trying to be cute. I'll find out for you and let you
1 I know by tomorrow but we have 85 lawyers and I don't keep a book on what every
one of them does.
13
—ter+ U CLL rleeung -LreDruErT46, 191
•
t
Councilman Workran: Well I guess they ape,
Jim Larkin: Alright. If you have that information.
Councilman Workman: Well yeah. I want to emphasize a little bit Ursula's
comments that and I have some, I have probably 3 realms of tobacco information
but that in fact the tobacco lobby is very good. They will tell you they are+
very good and they are very good in getting your law firm which is very good.
Everything is very good about that.,; The problem we have is and cigarettes are
not very good and I don't think Joe'Hoyland will tell us that he thinks
cigarettes are good or any retailer thinks cigarettes are good or anybody thinks
cigarettes are good or that they're promoting that to their own children or
their grandchildren or whoever so we've got kind of a contradiction here of
profits and dollars versus what we know something is not good and it is bad but
we're making so dog gone maxfi money and we have to continue to sell these
things. The statistics that I picked up from Joel on Friday were that 15% to
20% of the sales at a convenience store are based on cigarettes. It's an awful
lot of money for this City Council to be potentially with or denying it. That's
I guess a bit of information for the public who's wondering why all the fuss is.
If we're going to rearrange a couple of counters, why is there such a fuss?
Because it's a pretty sacred cow I think. Might not the grocers and this is
going to you know, warrant two more comments. One, really what is the theft of
one carton of cigarettes per store per week to a corporation. It's really
nothing. That is really nothing and so what is really nothing to that
corporation could very well be an awful lot to a small bunch of city council
people out here in the pucker brush. But my only other comment and I'll keep it
to that is, sight not the Grocer's Association be the perfect group of people to
lead the campaign to say we're not interested in selling these products? They
really can't be compared to most any other product that's sold in the store.
Joe, you talked about completely changing the entire inside of a huge grocery
store around tobacco products. That sounds so drastic that it does tell me that
obviously the dollar's there and the tobacco industry has plenty left to do
that. Wouldn't the Minnesota Grocer's Association be the perfect group of
people to say yeah, we do believe that cigarettes are a terrible product or a
terrible habit and maybe we should be making some, and I believe in
=promising. Obviously Joe we talked about that. I'm just getting over my
carton a week habit. Wouldn't they be the perfect group of people to say look
at us. We're going to do something about this.
Jim Larkin: I'd like to respond specifically to that and let me, and Joe can ,
respond to it too if he'd like to but I think if you want to say to them, help
us. Take the position that cigarettes are not good for minors and should not be
sold to then, I think that's perfectly appropriate. I think•that's what Joe has
said to you but where I get, and this is perhaps a philosophical argument and
you asked does our firm represent people in the tobacco industry. I also happen
to believe in due process and that's a commitment I took an oath to when I
became a lawyer. Over my unduly long life at this point because I've been at
council meetings where I've been threatened with close to hanging and so forth.
Not here. I think it's easy to find a quick fix to a solution and then go home
and say gee we did good but it doesn't always work that way. I'd remind you
that in 1900 the American Medical Association was criticizing those who wanted
to restrict cocaine. There's an article in this week's Financial World that
talks about one of the worse addictions in society, and there are studies on il]
this, is garbling and yet you have the State of Minnesota and this is an article
14 ,
1
4-- City Council meeting - February 26, 1990
IL it '
that evaluates that, that. So if you're looking for a whipping boy,
the grocers are convenient and you can say we did this and aren't we good but I
suggest that the grocers are here and want to work with you to find a solution.
I think that's an appropriate position for them. I haven't heard and I have
1 read the transcript and where does theft of cigarettes care from and I started
thinking about this. You know the easiest place to steal cigarettes is if your
parents smoke. If your parents don't smoke and you've got a crowd of 10 people
I and the statistics are that 3 out of 10 people smoke, you can steal them from
the neighbors parents and what''restrictions do you have on that? Or what do you
try to do to that? Again, I can go on and on about it...
I (There was a tape change at this point in the meeting.)
Councilwoman Dialer: ...distinction that we're making and I'm saying that you,
I if you're representing the Grocer's Association, you can't say, you know it's
illegal to sell to minors and here's,what we're going to do to help that cause
and that's all that we're asking you to do. We're not going to stop cigarette
Isales to adults.
Joe Hyland: Mr. Mayor, Q'uncilwoRan, we have done that. We have publicized
II the State Law which states that it is against the law to sell to minors. We
have put placards together. We have provided them for our members. I stand
ready to ask what more we can do.
I Coi]i'ran Johnson: Did you do that before or after it became a gross
misdemeanor?
II .- Joe Hoyland: Certainly Mr. Mayor, Councilman Johnson. Certainly when the
penalty for the clerk was raised to a point where it got their attention and
there was a great deal of opportunity for publicity for that type of situation.
II We have always demonstrated to our members that it's against the law. Cur
. members will care before you and say it is against the law and they uphold the
law of Minnesota. Frankly we didn't take out an ad campaign to declare that but
there are a lot of laws on the books in Minnesota and a lot of laws on the books
I in Chanhassen and frankly we did not have the need to draw attention to any
particular law above any other.
II Mawr Chm�iel: Maybe what we could do is just move on to have those people who
are present who want to make their presentation. I would like to try and limit
that to possibly about 5 minutes per each and I think we can probably do it
because we heard from same of these people before.
1 Joe Hyland: Thank you Mr. Mayor. The first person I'd like to call on is Len
Fillmeyer from Superk erica.
ILen Fillmeyer: Mr. Mayor, Councilmen. M, name is Len Fillmeyer from Super
America office in Bloomington and everything I was going to say has already been
I said and discussed but I would like to answer a couple of questions that I don't
think was answered and talk a little bit about what, be it Super America. The
fact that we say again has been said many times, we don't have a problem selling
cigarettes. We think we do a real good job and I think we talked about what are
' we doing to prevent that. I think we're doing just about everything in our
power and I think in many of our stores, our clerks even take an extra step.
Instead of guessing ages kind of everybody that looks under 25, card them so I
II15
Ilk -
11
think we're doing everything 4 urn to prevent the sale of cigarettes to minors
and we're going to continue doing that. But a couple of questions that were
asked or discussed here was the fact of selling cigarettes or having cigarette
displays on a floor. Do we get paid money by the cigarette companies for doing
that and the answer is yes. Yes we do. We get paid for putting displays of
Pepsi on the floor. We get paid for putting Coke on the floor. We get paid for
putting Pizza's on the floor. Displaying oil. We get paid for putting many -.
things on the floor and openly displaying those items because that's where they
sell. The public today really demands that of us. That we are what we are,
convenience store and they care to ;uys for that reason. They don't want to be
hassled in anything. We get 'the average customer somewhere between 5 and 6
minutes so it isn't like they're going to shop our store and they have a lot of
time so it's important to us that we have these cigarettes on the floor. Number
one, they would never fit in our checkout. Number one. We choose to market
than on the floor in full view of our people and in :many cases there is already
a security rack there and we don't lose, I mean I stand here and say we never
lost a pack of cigarettes or a carton of cigarettes to minors, we're not that
naive. We have and we probably still will lose a pack of cigarettes here and
there. It doesn't matter, things we have behind the counter we lose as well. I
mean we're in that industry but our overall numbers are very, what we consider,
very manageable and if we have a problem with cigarettes as every store and
SuperAmerica, they're not on the floor. Some stores they're definitely behind
the counter and for all kinds of reasons. We say again, when we have in our
possession here tonight again a tape, a training tape that we use. A real tape
that shows the theft of cigarettes that our people all see and all live by. Not
one teenager is on there. Mat's not by choice. We didn't cut that out. It
just never showed qp on there so our question is, we don't know what more we can
do. We have no way we can put cigarettes in a counter without sale massive
reconstruction of many of our stores. And I would like to answer any questions
you have as far as marketing cigarettes.
Councilman Johnson: In my original proposal on this I had a remotely controlled
device. You have your large displays at SuperAmerica of carton cigarettes where
that could be basically locked and then remotely unlocked to allow a customer to
grab his carton of cigarettes under the view and the control of the store
employee. Does that give you much heartburn?
Len Fillmeyer: Councilman Johnson, we have some of those and there are some of
those out there. There are buzzers out there on some carton racks of cigarettes 1
that buzz when a carton of cigarettes is pulled out of there. We don't
understand the need for it number one. I mean we think we can control our
business to the degree that if we had a problem, we're going to be the first
ones to change that and jump in with both feet and get the controls we need in
order to because cigarettes in a company like ours are not a high margin item.
It isn't like cigarettes are the best thing we do so it isn't like you can lose
a lot of cigarettes and still make money.
Councilman Johnson: How many? I mean what level of theft of cigarettes would
turn you on? If you have, say you do a thousand cartons a week and you lose 10
cartons, would you be upset by a 1% loss?
Len Fillmeyer: We don't have 1% loss there? We don't have 1% loss. In
cigarettes it's probably, not probably. Between cigarettes and beer, the most
16 1
....�� ■ww.ia racc- iv • tEIMU -SD 1JJf0
I two controlled items we sell:, we know,every shift if we lost a pack or 2 of
cigarettes. We know every shift. We count cigarettes in the stores every shift
I I _ everyday so there is no other item in the store other than beer that we have
those kind of controls on. We know what's happening in cigarettes.
' Councilman Johnson: Okay. On your counter displays. The counter displays were
designed with a clear to where the people could see the displays and the
employee had straight access to them, what's the difference?
Len Fillmeyer: I'm not sure Y understand that there is any difference. We do
have some cigarettes on the counter in full view of our employees right in front
' of our cashiers. Now the only way somebody could steal those cigarettes is if
they grab than and run.
Councilman Johnson: Or you've got, in the case of TH 7/41 store, you've got 2
cash registers. Cigarettes on one and the employee on the other.
Len Fillmeer: That can happen.
' Councilman Johnson: It's a little hard to see unless you can transplant the
eyes to the back of the head.
Len Fillmeyer: But again, we're not losing then. I mean we don't understand
the problem. We don't understand why we're doing this because it's a great, for
II caapetitive reasons we lose all our competitiveness with our competition right
across the street.
Councilman Johnson: I think part of it is what I said before. the message we
' are giving to the children by having these large displays of cigarettes at the
same place they buy their candy is that cigarettes are good and we want to make
a different message to the children.
' Len Fill:re.er: Again, I say that's not the issue.
Councilman Johnson: Sure it is.
' Councilwoman Diirler: Mr. Fillimeyer, I thank you for answering my questions
about the industry, tobacco industry paying for the displays. I wonder if you
' would be willing to give me an amount as to what would be the loss in revenue if
our ordinance indeed would disallow these types of displays?
Len Fillmeyer: I don't have those numbers in front of re but it's dramatic.
Councilwoman Dimler: Is it? Is it more than or the same as or less than the
other its that you mentioned? Pizzas or whatever.
' Len Fillreyer: As we said, that's been brought out here several times. In the
sales of a convenience store, somewhere from 16% on up of your business is
1 tobacco products so if you took those off the floor as Pepsi, if you took it off
the floor, or candy for that matter, the sales on that product go right down the
tube. The public wants them on the floor.
' Councilwoman Dimler: You're losing the sales but also you get paid for just
putting up the display whether you sell them or not?
' 17
F
Lary-Upanc1i lmung -February 26, I990
r F.. .
Len Fillmeyer: If we didn't have them on the floor, there would be no display
money. fb, there would not be any money.
Councilwoman Dialer: There is display money though...
Len Fillmeyer: ...for mass displays. -
Councilwoman Dialer: And if you put them, behind the counter there's no display ,
:coney? 4;4 s4
Len Fillmeer: That's right. ,
Councilwocran Dialer: And it's a substantial amount you say?
Len Fillmeyer: A substantial. ,
C urrilue u Dialer: More so than pizzas?
Len Fillmeyer: Dramatic.
Councilwoman Diurler: Thank you. ,
Councilman Johnson: Does that display money, does that include the large groups
of cartons? When you have the 20 foot raw of cartons, is that considered a mass
display and you're paid to have that? -'
Len Fillmeyer: Yes it is.
Councilman Johnson: Okay. I was thinking mostly those small displays on the
counter that other...
Len Fillmeyer: Well small displays pay small dollars. '
Councilman ohnson: You're saying there's bigger dollars in the big carton
display? ,
Len Fillmeyer: Sure there is.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright are there any other questions? ,
Councilman Boyt: Mr. Mayor, I'd like to propose some way of moving the meeting
along. Can we refer this to the Public Safety Commission or in sane way, I
envision that we're going to be on this issue for another half hour.
Mayor Oriel: Being that we have each of these people here Bill, I think we`ll ,
adhere to that 5 minutes and hopefully they may be able to finish it a lot
quicker.
Joe Hoyland: Mr. Mayor and Councilmarbers, a couple of key points and one is 1
that the Minnesota Unfair Sales Act requires retailers to mark up cigarettes and
tobacco products 8% above their actual cost. Bear that in mind. Second is that
Minnesota has the highest excise tax on tobacco products in the United States. I
believe the current number is about 38 cents per pack. Consequently the price
18 ,
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City Council Meeting - February 26, 1998 -
is up. The next speaker that I'd like to call up is Colleen Lapell and she's
also from SuperA¢terica.
' Colleen Lapell: Good evening Mayor, Cow cilmerbers. M. name is Colleen Lapell.
I'm a SuperAtrerica area manager. Our store on 7 and 41 reports directly tome.
Two weeks ago I was here and addressed this Council with 3 points on interest
which tonight I amp going to reconfirm, those. Last week I showed you our signage
package which I have again with me here tonight. This signage package can be
found in all of our SupexAmeri a stores. Today I counted 16 signs in my store
in Chanhassen posted on the sales floor and also back in our break rooms. These
' signs are used as a tool of reinforcement not only to our cashiers but as well
as to our customers that SA wants only the legal sale. Our training manual is
gone through with each brand new employee. Inside this book are laws for
' selling tobacco, caupany rules and regulations and techniques the trainer can
use with the new employee as far as role playing. What he or she will care
across selling tobacco products. Two,weeks ago I mentioned a video tape that is
an actual footage of customers stealing cigarettes. I have that with me here
' tonight. Leonard Fillme_yer also made mention of this tape tonight. Again, not
one of the customers stealing cigarettes is a minor. Wb use this tape to show
our new cashiers and employees what to watch out for to safeguard against theft.
' SuperAmerica is camitted to the legal sale of tobacco. WS are constantly
following up and checking our stores for compliance. Thank you very much.
I _ Joe Hovland: The next speaker is Jeff Steel, also at SuperAmerica.
Jeff Steel: Mayor, City Council meters. As I mentioned 2 weeks ago that my
store did not and still does not have an inventory control problem, on tobacco
products. One of the tools we use to control inventory on tobacco products is
doing a complete inventory twice a day, once per shift. By doing this if we
were to have a problem, corrective action could be taken immediately. SA has a
' bonus program available to it's store managers. To qualify for a bonus,
inventory control is essential. A carton of cigarettes is one of the most
expensive single items in my store. For me to allow tobacco theft would be
taking money out of my own pocket. If cigarette theft was a problem in my
store, I would be locking there up myself but it is not a problem and I do not
wish to lock the*, up. There would be no reason for a customer to buy a carton
of cigarettes from my store. I would lose the promotions from the tobacco
company so my customers would go elsewhere to save the money on their cigarette
purchases. Example, right across the street to Driskill's Super Value and
Snyder's Drug that has the cigarettes both not only packages that we do not have
' out in the open mostly except the small promotion on the counter, but also their
cartons that are right out in the open and will continue to receive the
promotional allowances from the tobacco company that you will deny re with this
ordinance. Thank you.
' Joe Hovland: The next speaker is Doug Coffee, also at SuperAmerica.
Doug Coffee: Mayor, Council people. My name is Doug Coffee. I work at the
SuperAmerica. I manage the store on 212 at the intersection of 169. Jeff and
Colleen have already talked about the signage and training which we also use.
I Currently my cartons of cigarettes are behind m, counter due to the physical
size and design of my store. There is however the possibility that my store
would be redesigned or rebuilt samsday and at that point I feel it should be up
to the retailers to decide where they merchandise their products. We have a
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Csty OM= Ppeting — renruary l6, 199
11
display of cigarettes on-cat checkout counter and since I've been at this store
we have not had a shoplifting problem at all. Whether it be cigarettes or any
other merchandise. Thank you.
Joe Howland: Next speaker is Lloyd Lenin, Holiday Station Stores.
Lloyd Lenin: Mayor, Council members. I'm just going to touch briefly on ouir
corporate policy and we do enforce the State law very dramatically. The penalty
in fact, an employee does sell cigarettes illegally•to a minor, he is
responsible for the fine. We will' not cover him on that. He is also, can face
suspension or termination but the responsibility of the fine is going to be his
and we do not compensate him for that. Our training program when people are
hired covers alcohol and cigarettes very thoroughly. We have than, wear badges
to the fact that we check ID for cigarettes and liquor, or beer I should say.
It also takes the pressure off of our cashiers that they, the customer knows
he's going to be checked. We do have the pack displays at the checkout also.
We have the carton displays on the counter. We have also put video in many of
our stores. Mich of that is for robbery deterrent but also it is at the
checkout. The manager can review those,which he does everyday and that way he
can observe also if sales are being made to minors by the other crew markers.
Space in our checkouts, as Len stated in their type of arrangement also, we do
not have room in our checkouts for the carton displays. We enforce, I'm being
redundant, very emphatically the policies as far as selling any type of tobacco
to minors.
Joe Howland: The next speaker is Jeff Hogrud of Holiday Station Stores also. 1
Jeff Hogrud: Mr. Mawr, Council. My name is Jeff Hogrud. I represent the
Holiday in Chanhassen here and from what I have seen, I've worked here 4 months,
from what I have seen you have fine kids here. We do not have a problem with
cigarette theft or other theft at our store. Our employees are trained to check
ID's. They are trained and aware of the consequences if they sell to minors.
They know they are responsible for the fine and could lose their job. We have
cameras that focus on the tills and the cigarettes. Again, we do not have a
cigarette problem at the Chanhassen Holiday.
Joe Howland: We're moving right along. Dennis Carlson, Brooke Supezettes.
Dennis Carison: My name is Dennis Carison. I'm Director of Operations for
Brooke Food Markets. accuse my cold. I had other things prepared. I know you
want to keep this brief. I'll just say as a member of Brooke's food Markets, we
feel we are very responsible member of the community of Chanhassen in which we
do business. We axe not, it is not a part of our company to try to violate laws
or do something against the law. However we feel it is necessary for us to be
able to operate in a manner which we can be competitive with other people in our
industry. By taking away displays, you're taking away part of our competitive
edge or part of just meeting our competition. Yes, cigarettes are a valuable
portion of our business. They account for a lot of dollars in sales. I feel by
taking the displays away, not only are you giving us an unfair advantage but
you're cutting our revenues by taking away the impulse items that adult
customers should have the option of purchasing. If not just a pack of
cigarettes, it might be a pack of cigarettes with a deck of playing cards. It
gives them an option so it's not just brand conscience, there is a promotion
available with than. Frame there I just would like to answer a couple of
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City Council ing - February 26, 1990
questions that were brought Up regarding theft and I believe Mir. Bouts yours was
1 one of them regarding our policy of theft of any product in our store, we'll
prosecute. Whether it's a candy bar, a pack of cigarettes or a can of pop.
That is our policy and we adhere to it and I can bring numbers and I can't even
I give you the numbers but it's large. But I can say very honestly, in rmy 15
years with Brooke's Food Markets I don't remember prosecuting a minor for theft
of cigarettes. But I will for candy and I will for pop.
1 Councibran Boyt: You're:tellirig me that you haven't caught a zminor stealing
cigarettes in your carreer? •
ILloyd Lenin: I have not. No, I have not sir.
Councilman Boyt: And your stores haven't?
1 Lloyd Lenin: I'm not going to say that. I'zm saying to my knowledge, I cannot
remember catching a minor stealing cigarettes. Pop, candy, tremendous. But we
do prosecute. If we do prosecute, we'will prosecute. That is just our company
1 policy. You were talking about display payments. Yes, there are display
payments but I know for a fact our company last year between Coke and Pepsi,
their payments were higher than they were from the tobacco companies so we are
IIin business to make a profit. Are there any questions?
Mayor Qimdel: I guess not. Thank's L*nnis.
ICouncilman Johnson: I have one small one. Most of your displays are counter
displays. You don't have the large carton display that SuperAmerica has.
1 Lloyd Lenin: No we don't. Most of them, we do have a small carton display on
the floor. Le have a temporary, display for promotional items and then we have
counter displays.
1 Councilman Johnson: On the counter displays, would you lose your display value
if a clear plastic shield was placed in front of that display to where it was
still probably displayed? It's still visible to the customer. They can still
Isay hey, grab re a pack of whatever.
Lloyd Lenin: Very definitely we would. Other things we've tried behind the
1 counter that way, people don't ask for them. I don't know why. They don't want
to bother the clerk. Whatever it might be. Whenever you take that self service
advantage away, people will not ask.
IICouncilman Johnson: So you think the tobacco industry will take that money away
fram► you then?
1 Lloyd Lenin: I believe it's very possible. I can't speak for that.
Councilman Johnson: How long have these displays been around like this?
1 Lloyd Lenin: I've been in the business 15 years, since I've been in the
business.
' Councilman Johnson: That's what I thought. The carton displays seem to be
something new.
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Joe Iioyland: The last speaker`'is-Mike Ybling, also of Brooke's Food Markets. 1
ti ' Il
Ci
ouncilman Johnson: Before Mike gets started, does he want to change anything '
• be said last time? Make any corrections to his...
Mike Young: Well actually I do Jay since I know you were in my store.
Councilman Johnson: Every day. .s
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.t •
Mike Young: I see you. I hope my people are polite too.
Councilman Johnson: Oh yeah. I get along. In fact they've got same real good I
things to say about you.
Mike Young: Well, back to the issue. Actually a point of fact. When I said, I
I at the last meeting I stated that my displays were within 3 1/2 feet. Okay, at
the time I pleasured, my Camel, my temporary display was empty and I forgot it so
i you were correct. I was mistaken. It is 'farther away than I thought it was but
it is still within clear view of my cashiers as my cashier illustrated to you II
• when you were in Thursday.
Councilman Johnson: She could see through the rack of magazines and see the
II
bottom of that display.
Mike Young: Which is pretty good considering that display was slightly out of 11
position and should have been forward more than it was.
• Councilman Johnson: And it is forward now.
Mike Young: Yeah. It's where it should have been to start with. It got moved II
when the floor was cleaned.
Councilman Johnson: Right.
• Mike Young: Okay. I did want to address your visit last Thursday. M, cashier II called ire right after you left saying that a councilmenher had been in. That he
• was very derrogatory toward se which does not particularly offend me anyway.
I've had lots of people be derrogatory tome. But it left her quite upset and
that's a condition I don't want to see happen. Right now we have a difference
I
of opinion. Okay? It's obvious to all of us here. The retailers want to keep
their displays. They want to do business in their way. The Council wants to
correct a problem that's serious and I mean I agree. I have two small children.
II
It's a definite concern. It's a concern for se as a parent. I can understand
your concern. I also understand our concern. We're in business. We're trying
to be carpetitive. We're trying to survive. We are willing to work with you. II Now what it seemed tore fram talking to my cashier was that this issue was
coming down to a personal issue between yourself and myself which left her
upset. I can't afford that type of activity going on in my store. It upsets =ray .
cashier. It reduces their efficiency plus I had several, two customers comment
II
tore on it. That they were not pleased with it happening and didn't know what
was going on. Consequently, on that same night, not particularly related, but
about a half hour after you left two young boys cage into my store with a note
saying please sell my son such and such brand of cigarettes. Whatever it was.
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11
.- City Council Meeting — February 26, 1990
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My cashier who's very good, told than'-forget it. There's no way. You're not
II 18. You're not getting anything. I don't care if you've got a note from God
and she didn't give it to then. The kids proceeded to press her and when she
told them that she would be happy to call the police and have them picked up for
II trying to buy cigarettes illegally, they informed her that someone had sent them
in and given them $5.00 a piece to try this. Now, I don't know what's going on
there and to be perfectly honest I don't care but it illustrates tore very well
that my cashiers are very conscientious about keeping an eye on the kids.
I Watching them to make sure that they ID everyone. I mean occasionally like
when Mr. Johnson was in he saw my cashier did not ID someone he was
questionable about. Because that person cares in my store every day and has
I been ID'd 10 or 12 titres, she knows this person. Lonows that they are of the
legal age. Went to school with this particular person. As for the statement
that we lose a carton of cigarettes a week, I stated every 2 weeks but I won't
I split hairs on that. But I used to work for Montgarery Wards and they invest a
lot of money into research and their research shows that 80% of all theft is
employee related so that would take us down to 1 pack a week. And 1 pack a week
from your 4 convenience stores that you have in town doesn't amount to much
11 cigarettes. Thanks for your time.
Maw= Qriel: Thank you. Exactly 5 minutes Mike.
IJoe Nyland: Mr. Mayor and members of the City Council. I appreciate the
courtesy that you have extended to the retailers in the city and to myself. I
I zeain available and willing to work with you in anyway that we can to address
the problems that you're facing specifically here in Chanhassen and I'm sure 1 l that the situation here is no different than any other city aroun3 the State.
Thank you.
1 Mawr C1rsiel: I'd like to trove that we table this item because Mr. Larkin who's
representing Minnesota Grocer's Association is not going to be able to make it
Ion the 12th. I'd like to move that we table it to March 26th.
Councilman Workman: I would second that.
Jim Larkin: Mr. Mayor, I can change it but I'm supposed to be in North Carolina
I on the 26th but in that case I represented Medtronics Distributor and he doesn't
sell tobacco honest but I think I can trove that one around if it's a matter of
some urgency to the Council. Through Mr. Highland we will again make
II representatives of that group available to cooperate with anybody from the City
who the City would want to designate to determine first of all the extent of the
problem of minor theft here. I think it goes without saying, and it's already
II been said, that they have an inducement to stop any kind of theft. Now I
happened to look the other day and see how much a pack of cigarettes cost. I
mean the last titre I remember looking at the price it was about a buck or less
and now it's over $2.00 I think.
IMayor Chriiel: It is. Some $2.25 and same $2.50 depending •
looking• ng upon where you're
Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Workman seconded to table action on the City Code
II Amendment limiting the sale of tobacco from behind the counter only until March
26, 1990. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
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