4.5 Recondier Ordianance zoning location for convenience stores & gas stations I : L. 5
i , CITYOF
1 . , . . 1 , . CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
� (612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739' `'' by " � P;d''''r - r
�
1 :_r_x �___ r__ _MEMORANDUM
TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager
,,i
IFROM: Paul Krauss, Planning Director -- - -
DATE: January 17, 1990 ..... ;:'`f
IISUBJ: Reconsideration of Second Reading of Zoning Ordinance
Amendment Modifying Zoning Restrictions and Locations
' for Convenience Stores , Gas Stations , and Automotive
Service Stations
IPROPOSAL/COMMENT
At the last City Council meeting, the proposed ordinance regu-
lating convenience stores and other uses having gas pumps was
II given second reading. The ordinance has as yet not been
published or officially implemented. In addition to defining
these types of uses, the primary focus of the ordinance is to
II establish setback requirements between uses having gas pumps and
between these uses and residential parcels.
IA problem has surfaced regarding the application of this ordi-
nance to existing and recently approved facilities with gas
pumps. When the ordinance was initially prepared for Planning
Commission and City Council review, staff comment included a
I discussion of its application to existing and recently approved
uses. It had been our recommendation that the ordinance be
structured in such a manner that it not apply to these and would
I applicable solely to conditional uses with gas pumps approved
after the date and enactment of the ordinance. However, the
ordinance that was finally adopted did not include this provision
nor was this aspect of the ordinance actively discussed in
I
meetings. The most serious problem is related to the approved
site plan for the new Amoco facility on Great Plains Boulevard.
When the ordinance was being discussed last November, staff indi-
II cated that Amoco had discussed obtaininga building permit with
staff at that time. This was in fact the case, however, what
occurred afterwards is that the building permit was not
I authorized until mid-January due to the need to coordinate the
removal of toxic materials from the soil with the Pollution
Control Agency prior to its issuance. In addition, while the
building permit for the Amoco Station has been issued then would
I
II
I
Mr. Don Ashworth
IIJanuary 17, 1990
Page 2
not likely be breaking ground on the new station until this
spring and it would not be completed until sometime afterwards.
As currently drafted, this station is in violation of the new
ordinance since there is approximately 197 feet between the
existing gas pumps at the Amoco Station and the Holiday Station
to the west and according to approved site plans , this setback
would be increased to 214 feet based upon the new site plan. In
any event, our City Attorney has taken a position that there are
no inherent rights on the property until the building is
completed which it certainly would not be prior to the date of
11 official printing of the ordinance.
Staff believes the Council has several options in this regard.
The Council could direct staff to publish the ordinance as
' currently drafted which would make existing gas stations
violating the standards such as the Brooks Superette, a non-
conforming use and which would essentially void out the approvals
' that have been given for the Amoco Station and for the con-
venience store proposed on the James property requiring them to
come back in for conditional use permit approval. The Council
would then have the option to approve or deny these uses. The
alternative is to modify the ordinance prior to publication to
clearly state that it is not applicable to uses approved prior to
the date of enactment of the ordinance. Staff is recommending
' that the latter approach be used, believing it is consistent with
our original recommendation to the Council and would cause the
least amount of disruption and exposure for our business com-
munity. Consequently, the City Attorney has drafted a proposed
amendment to the ordinance that would effectively allow the Amoco
Station to proceed but which would require the station on the
James property to obtain a conditional use permit prior to
construction.
RECOMMENDATION
' Staff recommends the City Council reconsider the second reading
of the ordinance pertaining to convenience stores and uses having
gas pumps and amend it to make it effective only on uses approved
after the date of adoption.
ATTACHMENTS
11 1. Letter from City Attorney dated January 15, 1990.
2 . City Council minutes dated January 8, 1990.
3 . Staff report presented at January 8, 1990 meeting.
I
1
a 1
CAMPBELL, KNUTSON, SCOTT & FUCHS, P.A.
Attorneys at Law I
Thomas J. Campbell
Roger N. Knutson (612) 456-9539 I
Thomas M. Scott Facsimile (612) 456-9542
Gary G. Fuchs
James R. Walston
Elliott B. Knetsch
Dennis J. Unger
January 15, 1990
Mr. Paul Krauss I
Chanhassen City Hall
690 Coulter Drive, Box 147
Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317
RE: Convenience Stores
Dear Paul:
The following language will take care of the Brown's Service
Station problem:
Section 10. This ordinance shall be effective immediately
upon its passage and publication, but shall not apply to
uses and structures for which a building permit has been
issued prior to its effective date or to the rebuilding of
existing uses.
V- ruly yours,
CA PBELL, • UTSON, SCOTT t
t F , P.A.
11111111-
Ro•- ' N. Knutson
RNK:srn
I
JAN 16 1999 ,
cm of CHANI-IASSEN
Yankee Square Office III • Suite 202 • 3460 Washington Drive • Eagan, MN 55122
1
5
CITYOF
CHANHASSEN
690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739
Action by Cttty Administrator
MEMORANDUM Endorse' 124 M'
TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager Reiact`d.jj .{[
FROM: Paul Krauss , Director of Planning gK Oat:. SL.bmt, to Cc ssion
DATE: January 3 , 1990 Date C` " `°'Heil
SUBJ: Second Reading of an Ordinance Regulating Convenience
Stores
iPROPOSAL/SUMMARY
On December 18, 1989, the City Council approved the first reading
of an ordinance designed to regulate convenience stores and other
uses having gas pumps. Among other things the ordinance would
establish a minimum separation of 250 feet between gas pumps to
11 decrease the likelihood of these uses congregating at a single
intersection and of 100 feet between the pumps and parcels zoned
and guided for residential use, to reduce potential impacts on
these properties.
The City Council discussed the separation standards indicating
that they may be reconsidered at second reading. A proposal was
made to have the 100 foot separation standard from residential
parcels also apply to storage tank vent pipes to minimize air
quality impacts. The current draft ordinance has been revised
' accordingly. The Council also added a requirement that waste oil
collection facilities be required with the conditional use permit
and this revision has also been incorporated.
STAFF RECOMMENDATION
Staff recommends that the City Council approve the second reading
' of an ordinance to regulate convenience stores and other uses
having gas pumps.
1
1
I
I
CITY OF CHANHASSEN -
CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING CHAPTER 20 11
OF THE CHANHASSSEN CITY CODE
BY ADDING PROVISIONS CONCERNING CONVENIENCE STORES
AND MOTOR FUEL STATIONS
The City Council of Chanhassen ordains as follows:
Section 1. Chapter 20, Section 20-1 of the Chanhassen City
Code is amended by adding the following definitions :
"Convenience Store" - Convenience store means a retail I
establishment which generally sells a limited range of food
products, non-prescription drugs, candy and other perishable
goods. This includes soda and similar beverage dispensing
and food products which can be heated and/or prepared onsie,
and has over 400 square feet of floor area for retailing of
non-automotive goods.
"Convenience Store with Gas Pumps" - Convenience store means
a retail establishment which generally sells gasoline from
pump islands and a limited range of food products, non-
prescription drugs, candy and other perishable goods. This
includes soda and similar beverage dispensing and food pro-
ducts which can be heated and/or prepared onsie, and has over
400 square feet of floor area for retailing of non-automotive
goods.
Motor Fuel And Service Station" - Motor fuel station means a
retail place of business engaged in the sale of motor vehicle
fuels and services, but may also engage in supplying a
limited amount of related goods. In no case shall the space
for the retailing of related goods exceed 400 square feet.
All services are to be performed within enclosed service
bays.
Section 2. Article I, Section 20-1. Definitions. Delete
the following definition:
may be engaged in supplying goods and se-rviccs generally required
in the operatin and maintenance of motor vehicles. These may
include sale- of petroleum products, sale and servicing of tires ,
batteries, automotive acces3ories, and replacement items, washing ,
•
maintenance and repair.
1
I
Section 3 . Amend Division 4, Standards for Business Office,
1 Institutional and Industrial Districts.
Section 20-282. Motor Fuel AND SERVICE Station as follows:
The following applies to motor fuel stations:
1 ) No unlicensed or inoperable vehicles shall be stored on
premises except in appropriately designed and screened
storage areas.
2 ) All repair, assembly, disassembly and maintenance of
vehicles shall occur within closed building except minor
maintenance including, but not limited to tire inflation,
adding oil and wiper replacement.
3 ) No public address system shall be audible from any resi-
dential parcel.
4 ) Stacking areas deemed to be appropraite by the city shall
meet parking setback requirements.
5 ) No sales, storage or display of used automobiles or other
vehicles such as motorcycles, snowmobiles, or all-terrain
vehicles.
11 6 ) Disposal of waste oil shall comply with PCA regulations.
FACILITIES FOR THE COLLECTION OF WASTE OIL MUST BE
11 PROVIDED.
7 ) Gas pumps AND/OR STORAGE TANK VENT PIPES shall not be
1 located within 100 feet of any parcel zoned or guided for
residential use.
8 ) A minimum separation of 250 feet is required between the
nearest gas pumps of individual parcels for which a con-
ditional use permit is being requested.
Section 4. Amend Division 4, Section 20-288 as follows:
Section 20-288. Convenience store with gas pumps.
' The following applies to convenience stores with gas pumps:
1 ) No unlicensed or inoperable vehicles shall be stored on
premises.
2 ) No repair, assembly or disassembly of vehicles .
' 3 ) No public address system shall be audible from any resi-
dential parcel.
' 4) Gas pump stacking area deemed to be appropriate by the
City shall not intrude into any required setback area.
5 ) No sales , storage or display of used automobiles or other
vehicles such as motorcycles, snowmobiles, or all-terrain
vehicles.
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11
6) FACILITIES FOR THE COLLECTION OF WASTE OIL MUST BE
PROVIDED. II
7) Gas pumps AND/OR STORAGE TANK VENT PIPES shall not be
located within 100 feet of any parcel zoned or guided for
residential use.
8) A minimum separation of 250 feet is required between the
nearest gas pumps of individual parcels for which a con- I/
ditional use permit is being requested.
Section 5. Chapter 20, Article XVI ( "BN" Neighborhood
Business District) of the Chanhassen City Code is modified in the
following manner:
Section 20-694. Conditional Uses I
Delete:
2) Automotive service stations.
Section 6 . Chapter 20, Article XVII ( "BH" Highway and
I/
Business Services District) of the Chanhassen City Code is
modified in the following manner:
Section 20-712. Permitted Uses t
Delete:
3) Automotive service stations.
Delete: I
11) Convenience stores with and without gas pumps
Add: I
11) Convenience stores without gas pumps.
Add: I
20) Automobile servicing within enclosed structures designed
for the purpose hwere fuel is not dispensed.
Section 20-714. Conditional Uses
Add:
5) Convenience stores with gas pumps. I
6) Motor fuel stations.
Section 7. Chapter 20, Article XVIII , ( "CBD" Central '
Business District) of the Chanhassen City Code remains
unchanged.
-3-
i
I
Section 8. Chapter 20, Article XIX ( "BG" General Business
District) of the Chanhassen City Code is modified in the
following manner:
Section 20-752 . Permitted Uses
Delete:
1 3) Convenience stores with or without gas pumps.
Add:
3) Convenience stores without gas pumps.
Delete:
27) Automotive service stations.
Section 20-754. Conditional Uses
Add:
6) Convenience stores with gas pumps.
7) Motor fuel stations.
Section 9. Chapter 20, Article XX ( "BF" Fringe Business
District) of the Chanhassen City Code is modified in the
following manner:
Section 20-773. Conditional Uses
Delete:
1) Automotive service stations without car washes.
Add:
1) Motor fuel stations without car washes.
Passed and adopted by the City Council of the City of
Chanhassen this day of , 1989.
CITY OF CHANHASSEN
I
By:
Donald J. Chmiel, Mayor
ATTEST:
I
Don Ashworth, City Manager
-4-
i
City Council Meeting - December 18; 1989 1
car iter assisted machinery. The other reason we think the room itself doesn't I
get a lot of use is because currently there are no weights or upper body
exercise devices in the room now. We think that once we balance the roan with
the weight machines, the computer assisted devices and the current equipment
plus the racquetball court, that we will get more use out of the roan.
Mawr Oriel: Okay John. Thank you. I
John Wolf: Thanks for your consideration.
Mayor Chmiel: Do we have a motion? I
Councilman Johnson: We already have one standing.
Councilman Boyt: Well I'll move approval of the Fire Department's Fitness
Equipment.
Councilman Johnson: It's already been moved and Tam seconded it. I
Councilman Boyt: Okay.
i
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to award the bid for the
exercise equipment for the Chanhassen Fire Department to The Fitness Store in
the amount of $11,821.50. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
•
•
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENTiIENT MODIFYING ZONIM RESTRICTIONS AND LOCATIONS FOR
CONVENIENCE STORES, GAS STATIONS AND AUTOMOTIVE SERVICE STATIONS, FIRST READING.
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. Last September you reviewed a
draft ordinance regulating convenience stores and other uses with gas pans.
Staff got feedback fra►► the Council that the ordinance should be revised to
provide separation standards both to separate individual CUP's having gas pumps
from one another and also well basically to prevent clustering at major
interchanges and also to provide a setback standard fram residential properties
given the high impact that these types of uses create. We reviewed past
discussions on the ordinance and believe that a somewhat different approach may
be appropriate at this point. We therefore separated out all uses with gas
pumps and classified them as conditional in those districts where we propose
that they be allowed. Convenience stores without gas pumps are proposed to be
treated as any other lower impact or retail use might have been and is permitted
where appropriate. There's a table on page 3 that illustrates where uses are
permitted or conditionally permitted. Under CLIP guidelines, a minimum,
separation of 250 feet is proposed between gas pumps of uses which are applying
for CUP's. This is in an effort to discourage clustering. We think it's an
effective number to reduce the possibility or eliminate the possibility that
you'd have 4 gas pumps located at an intersection. You Ray have one kitty
corner fram another or down the street from another but you wouldn't have 4 at
the same intersection. We're also proposing that a setback of 100 feet from
residential properties be required. Basically that will allow a greater than
normal setback where-hopefully we can through the site plan review process get a
high level of screening to be offered. The ordinance would also correct what we
view to be an omission in that it would allow auto servicing in the highway
11
45
i
II - City Council Meeting - December 18, 1989
1 business district. In reviewing the ordinance we felt it odd that a business
district dedicated to highway uses, i.e. auto related uses, prohibits servicing.
' I've talked to a number of people who were looking at the possibility of
autonalls or a Goodyear or Firestone type of operation and if it's to be
allowed, that's probably a district where one can consider that to happen.
We've proposed correcting that with the change in the ordinance. The Planning
Carmission discussed the ordinance in November but was unable to make a
reca►nendation. This item was scheduled for City Council review at the last
meeting but wasn't heard due to the late hour. At that point Councilman Johnson
' noted that the current and proposed definitions for a typical gas station
prohibit any kind of significant auto servicing. Consequently the normal, the
formerly normal type of gas station is actually prohibited in Chanhassen. Minor
servicing was allowed, changing wiper blades but nothing more than that. On
the basis of Councilman Johnson's inquiry and my expectation that this may have
been an oversight, I proposed a revised definition for motor fuel stations now
calling it motor fuel and service station and tinkered with it so that it would
11 allow auto services without restriction.
Mayor Ch►ael: Thanks Paul. Any discussion?
IICouncilman Johnson: You can have a service station without gas pumps like a
Goodyear. Where would a Goodyear fit?
', Paul Krauss: Well we think it would fit in the Business Highway district if we
wend it.
1 Councilman Johnson: I mean as far as definition wise. Do we have a definition
that would...
II Paul Krauss: No we don't. We do have auto service listed as a conditional use
in several districts but not in the business highway district.
II Councilman Johnson: Yeah but we deleted the definition of auto service.
Paul Krauss: We deleted the definition of was it auto service station?
ICouncilman Johnson: Yes.
Paul Krauss: I use the launching point for this, the ordinance that
I Mark Koegler developed last sumfier which talked about motor fuel stations
instead of auto service station.
Councilman Johnson: The only place we see motor fuel station it should say
motor fuel and service station?
Paul Krauss: Right.
1 Councilman Johnson: While you changed the definition you didn't change it back
in the additions?
II Paul Krauss: If I didn'tt�that was an oversight. I changed the definition on
page 1 of the ordinance.
I
' 46
,City Council Meeting - December 18, 1989 II
Councilman Johnson: Right but on page 3 it's not. Under 20-714, Conditional
Uses it just says motor fuel station. The next page it just says motor fuel
station. I
Paul Krauss: Ch yes, that's an oversight. All those should be corrected to
MUM fuel and service.
I/
Mayor Chmiel: Just one question Paul. In dispensing gas within residential
parcels, you're proposing a minima % separation of 100 feet. Is 100 feet really
enough? 1
Paul Krauss: Well if you have a gas station or a convenience store that's say
at the end of camercial center and adjacent to a residential parcel. Outside
the immediate area for gas pumps, you may have 50-60 feet of blacktop to allow
for circulation and trash storage and everything else. If you accept that as
kind of an average, then you're looking at about 40 foot of green space. That
allows you to do quite a bit. This was my attempt to address that issue.
Whether or not it goes far enough is the question I think but you have to keep
in mind that these things are reviewed not only with a conditional use permit
but also in conjunction with site plan approval where you get to approve the
landscaping and screening as well.
Councilman Boyt: There is Mr. Mayor, I think if we took this particular part of
that ordinance to TH 41 and TH 7, that they would be in arms against us. If we
said that a service station could be 100 feet away from their house.
Councilman Johnson: Two miles is too close. +h
Councilman Boyt: So I agree with you that 100 feet is not far enough. And that
doesn't mean that the individual service station has to build right on the
border of a residential neighborhood or has to have 40 feet of greenspace. It
simple means they can't build on that border. They've got to be somewhere in
the zone. They can't build right on the edge next to a residential developient.
Councilman Johnson: Is the 100 feet from where?
Paul Krauss: From the gas pump itself.
Councilman Johnson: To the nearest resident. Do you know what we have from the
pumps over here at Brooke's because... 1
Paul Krauss: I'm sure it's doesn't make it. The residential's right behind the
fence.
Mayor Chriel: That's part of my concern. That's much too close there.
Councilman Johnson: But the vents there are on the back of the building.
That's where the odor problem comes from. Not as much, when they're filling the
tanker and they do a lot of their tanker filling at night. It's easier for
tankers to drive around at night only with the drunk drivers.
Councilman Workman: Your brother?
1
47
City Council Meeting - December 18; 1989
Councilman Johnson: Brother-in-law. Just my brother-in-law. I think the
distance from the tank storage vents have to be taken into account because
sometimes those vents can be a long ways away from the building or the pumps.
In the case of a station I'm working on up north on a leaking underground tank
situation, his vents are actually at the back of the convenience store again
across from the alley but it's probably 75 feet from the tank. Fram the pumps
where his vents end up because of where his tanks are. So again that's the
worse case is as close as he could get to putting them next to residences. And
the Brooke's is even worse. It's right there and a slight southern breeze with
an inversion condition and the neighbors back there get a real good whiff of
fuel.
Councilman Boyt: What about the possibility of saying, what's the typical lot
depth in the zones we're talking about? It's 125 feet?
Paul Krauss: It's 125 feet minimum. Realistically they're typically somewhat
Fore.
Councilman Boyt: On a residential we rove it to 125 feet. Is that true in the
commercial areas we're talking about? Business highway and so on. Is that the
minimum? Off hand I don't remember the mdnimum.
Paul Krauss: If it's in proximity to any kind of single family that's been
developed in the last 10 years or so, yeah, that's the standard.
Councilman Boyt: ...lot depth in the commercial area but it seems to me like
there should be one lot between the lot that whatever we're calling these
1 things, motor fuel station sits on and any residential development. Would that
be reasonable?
Mayor Qhmiel: I don't know if you want to put another lot but I think a greater
distance than 100 feet is what I'm, depending on what those lot depths are.
Councilman Boyt: Well yeah, I don't know whether 250 feet's reasonable or what
but it would seem to me as maybe a street width and a lot depth would be, we're
at least saying here's same kind of cushion. Minimum lot depth is 150 feet.
Still?
IRoger Knutson: That's what it says.
i `Councilman Boyt: That's not residential right? That's commercial.
Roger Knutson: That's business highway. 150 feet.
Councilman Boyt: Well my point is, rather than just pick an arbitrary number of
100, 200, whatever, it would be nice to have something to reference it against.
If we're saying a lot, it's got to be one lot in from a residential zone and
1 maybe that's 150 feet. Maybe we take a lot and a street and say okay, if
there's 60 feet width for a street?
Paul Krauss: For local residential street. I
I
Councilman Boyt: So it's 210 feet. I'd say somewhere inbetween there is a
distance that makes same sense.
48
City Council Meeting - December 18; 1989
from a residential because I know that is a constant problem or going to be a
constant problem. Other than that, this trying to separate stations, etc., I'm
not sure how much of a problem we're going to have with that in the future.
Maybe we've peaked. As far as convenience stores, we're getting a grocery store
in, maybe we won't have that problem anymore. I don't know. I don't know if I
feel comfortable trying to plug all these holes and I'm kind of losing the
focus, this seers so like it's got so many different focuses that it's not
focused. Does that make sense?
Mayor Chmiel: Say that again.
Councilwaran Dialer: We're trying to cover too irrach.
Councilman Workman: Yeah, I think we're trying to cover too, I don't know if
it's the Planning Con mission can't decide and we can't decide and staff can't
decide.
Councilman Johnson: I think it's comprehensive.
1 '
Mayor Chmiel: I think you have to take a position Tam to look at something of
these types that they're proposing and not having one on every corner.
Councilman Workman: I guess you know, and that's what I'm trying...
Mayor Chndel: Termed as gasoline alley and I guess that's what I look at it
from. To me that's a visual blight. You need those kinds of services for the
motorists coming through the community but if they need gas, there's always that
availability getting gas somewhere. They may not have the right credit card but
you have to be sort of selective in where those kinds of stations are going to
go.
Councilman Workman: And maybe this isn't a good argument. There's an awful lot
of insurance agents out there. Nonetheless I got into the business. I think I
can do a better job. I think I can offer better service. I can blah, blah,
blab, blab. Likewise a businessman, maybe somebody can do a better job with a
Dinner Theatre. I don't know, are we going to put a dinner theatre on every
corner? But for us to tell a person, a property owner on a very busy
intersection that this in fact would be, something's telling a permit that this
is a very good intersection to sell gasoline because there's an awful lot of
traffic going by. You can make a lot of money doing this. Maybe all four
corners are being told that and there's that competition thing so I'm interested
in doing something. I'm interested in passing the first reading. I'm just
letting everybody know that the second reading I'm going to have maybe sate more
refined ideas on this.
.Mawr Chn iel: Yeah, you're only limiting 5 different specific ones from not
being permitted within those categories as we have listed. The others are
permitted uses and conditional uses and all those are being permitted in there
with just specific conditions as to what they have to meet.
Councilman Boyt: I think one of the things to keep in mind, it is pretty
comprehensive. There's a lot of ground that's covered in this thing so maybe it
does seem to lack focus. What I entered it trying to avoid was probably what we
can't avoid very easily and that is the feeling that there's too many J
51
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City Council Meeting - December 18, 1989
I convenience stores with gas puns in this town right now. 250 feet I see as
being the absolute nminimum. I guess I can kind of live with it because as Paul
said, it keeps then off every corner.
' Councilman Workman: Let ne just ask you this quick. Are any of those
convenience stores going broke?
Councilman Hoyt: Wall what's going to happen is, I hope not. What will happen
is unlike the insurance business where you can enter and leave and pretty much
not leave something that everyone else has to live with. In the convenience
store gas pump, once you build that building, it's there. Try to find an
alternate use for those things and it's a challenge so you see empty gas
stations sitting around from the big crunch 10 years ago. People can't enter
the Dinner Theatre because of the large fixed cost.
Councilman Workman. Right. I was using those in basically a larger
philosophical in that maybe my investment in getting into the insurance business
1 isn't as great as somebody that's going to be building a convenience store which
is a big investment but they've got to think that through and I'm not going to
baby them through it, you know what I mean. That's all I'm saying. That's not
my job to tell this guy, hey watch out you're going to fail because businesses
fail every day. And it's also not my job to say for the convenience store
that's already there, hey I'm going to protect you because I don't want you to
fail either. I'm going to start getting into this juggling act. That's what
I'm nervous about and I understand completely where Council wants to go with
trying to...out a little bit but it's like pornography. When does pronooggra y
start? It depends on what decade you were born in maybe but so there's S11
sorts of different definitions about where that competition should, where our
I role in competition should begin and end and that's where I always get a little
nervous. I'm nervous talking about garages. Telling people how to build
houses.
Councilman Johnson: I don't think we're trying to protect anybody or tell than,
protect than from failure or guarantee than, success by protecting them from
II competition. I think what we're trying to say is that the look we want for our
town, such as what is being said with the garages, the look we want for our town
is not the look of four convenience gas service stations at the corner of Great
Plains and TH 5. We don't want to see, I don't know how wide that right-of-way
is. Whether 250 feet crosses the right-of-way there or not from Holiday to the
other side of TH 5 but is that what we want as our vision for our commercial
.-development in town. One of our wain entrances to town to be a Holiday, a Super
America, Super Q and an Amoco and I guess we've got roam for one more gas
station yet to be tossed in there.
II Councilman Wbrkfian: I'm just saying don't let our vision get in the way of a
property owner making sane money. That's all I'm saying so I know what you
mean.
IICouncilman Johnson: Now is there other things that can go in there that would
be camercially viable also? We put those uses in there and then there's no
II roam for a Burger Ring or a Bonanza or Mills Fleet Farm or whatever.
.Y
Mayor Comiel: Any other discussion?
52
City Council Meeting - December 18, 1989 1
Councilman Johnson: So I agree with you
Councilwaran rimier: Yes. I've been uncomfortable with this all along and I
guess mainly because of the problems with limiting free trade and restricting
competition is my main concern. Also I think this puts the City in the business
of, ox into a position of granting on a first core basis and I'm not real sure
that we want to be in that position. Again I think we're coverning too much.
Trying to be too restrictive. I believe same of this is necessary but I think
as far as the convenience store aspect is concerned, I no longer see that as an
issue. I kind of feel like we're closing the barn door after the cows are out.
I think that that was the issue last year as they were springing up but I don't
see that happening and I don't think that will happen.
Councilman Johnson: The issue's about to start again because Amoco didn't do
anything within their year. They're about to lose their...
Councilwoman Dimlex: Well, like you know with the grocery store coming. I
don't know if too many more convenience stores will want to care in here.
Paul Krauss: As far as Amoco goes, they're working with us on building permit.
The thing that's hanging them up right now is the need to clean up existing
contamination on the site.
Councilman Johnson: They thought they'd have that thing whipped out by spring. '
Gary Warren: They're looking to bid it so they can start this sprig.
- Councilman Johnson: They have applied for the building permit?
Gary Warren: They've applied for the building permit. They are currently
reworking our site plan to coordinate with the TH 5 and the Great Plains Blvd.
expansion and they're looking to get us, we've been provided a temporary plan
for the clean-up effort out there. We had a big meeting 2 weeks ago with MnDot
and others to coordinate that because we do need an easement from them to do our II
ultimate Great Plains Blvd..
Councilman Johnson: Now that we've ventured off the subject slightly, do they
need any kind of extension? I mean they haven't moved any dirt.
Mawr Chmiel: Let's try to stick to what our subject is.
Councilwoman Limier: Yeah, I guess my final comment was what the gentleman said
before here. Although we did legislate the market there, I'm real uncomfortable
with doing it in all cases. I
Councilman Johnson: We have eliminated apartments in this city on the last one.
Councilwoman Limier: No, no, no. We left an opening there to separate that I
out.
Councilman Johnson: :It's a first reading.
Mayor Oriel: Yeah.
53
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- UeCeMDer
I
Councilman Boyt: Well I would move approval of the first reading, adding to
I Section 3, point 9 that motor fuel stations provide for the collection and
recycling of oil.
Councilman Johnson: You can just rewrite 6.
Councilman Boyt: Well, whichever.
Mayor Ch iel: Section 4?
Councilman Boyt: Sure. The intent would be any place that sells motor oil
which some of these may then decide that it's not worth selling motor oil but
certainly the service stations are going to.
Mayor Qirael: Okay...that 100 feet and so on. More than 100 feet. Okay. Is
there a second?
Councilman Workman: I'll second it.
Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the first reading
of the Zoning Ordinance Antenziment modifying zoning restrictions and locations
for convenience stores, gas stations and automotive service stations with an
amendment to Section 20-282, condition 6 to include that all motor fuel stations
provide for the collection and recycling of used motor oil. All voted in favor
' except Councilwoman Dialer who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4
to 1.
II Paul Krauss: Two points of clarification if I could briefly. Did that
condition also apply to convenience stores that sold oil?
Councilman Boyt: Yep. Anything that sells oil.
Paul Krauss: Okay, and was the setback increased or it has not been at this
tine?
1 Councilman Boyt: Not yet. I think we asked to consider 150 to 210.
Mayor andel: Yes.
' Councilman Boyt: But we didn't change it yet.
11 . Councilman Johnson: And the typo's corrected right?
Mayor Qrdel: Right.
I
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT REGARDING REVISIONS TO THE ZONING ORDINANCE TO ALLOW
FOR THE REVIEW AND GRANTING OF CONDITIONAL USE PERMITS FOR USES THAT ARE
TEMPORARY IN NATURE IN ALL DISTRICTS, FIRST READING.
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, Irm prepared to go ahead with that. Would you like for
1 me to skip this one tonight in favor of going to what we have left on the
agenda? This isn't pressing.
t54
I/
City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
11
Don Ashworth: $1,000.00 in addition to the 6 or 7 hours that supposedly we have
credited to us.
Councilman Johnson: $1,000.00 ona 3 to 4 million dollar decision? Be nuts.
Get the information so our people can make an informed decision.
Councilwoman Dialer: But they won't be making it this year so why rush it?
Councilman Johnson: Geez, why don't we wait to the next century? We've got 24 11
basketball teams trying to play on 3 courts. We play from 8:00 a.m. in the
morning to 1:00 in the afternoon. • ,
Councilwoman Dialer: You are still...for a special interest group.
Mayor Chmiel: Jay. There may be the availability now at the junior high and I
the senior high if Chaska is going to take their people from.
Councilman Johnson: I'm not bringing my second graders to play basketball.
They don't have the baskets either.
Mayor Ciiiel: They do with hockey and pee wee, they go all over. I
Councilman Johnson: They don't have the facilities for second graders to play
basketball.
Councilman Boyt: Gentleman, are we going to vote on something here?
Mayor C7r►iel: The question is whether or not we spend $1,000.00 at the present
time to ensure the total 3.4 or 5 million dollars that we've been discussing.
There's a second. Did you second that Bill?
Councilman Johnson: I made the motion. Bill seconded. I,
Councilman Boyt: That the committee be directed to investigate the financial,
the specific financial implications and tax burdens. I
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to direct the Community
Center Task Force to prepare financial information to bring back to the Council
by April 15, 1990. A11 voted in favor and the motion carried.
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT MODIFYING ZONING RESTRICTIONS AND LOCATIONS FOR 11
CONVENIENCE STORES, CAS STATIONS AND AUTOMOTIVE SERVICE STATIONS, SECOND
READING. I
Paul Krauss: At the last City Council meeting the Council gave first reading to
an ordinance regulating convenience stores having gas pumps. Among other
things, the ordinance establishes a minimum separation of 250 feet between gas 11
pumps and 100 feet between the pumps and residential parcels. The Council gave
it first reading with a couple of changes and those have been incorporated into
the ordinance. One of the changes was based on Councilman Johnson's concern
that the 100 foot setback to residential be measured not only from the gas pumps
themselves but also from the vent pipes from the storage tanks. And the second
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City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
II was that the requirement be placed on conditional use permits that are
granted for these operations that they have a waste oil collection facilities.
With those changes, the ordinance is basically the way you had modified it at
1 your first reading and we're recommending that it be approved.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, is there anyone wishing to address this at this particular
time? If hearing none, any discussion? I think what we have here is what Paul
indicated. Tying in our concerns that we had from the previous Council meeting.
Upon reviewing this, I think he has met all those specific recommendations.
Councilman Boyt: I've got one point if I might. Item 8(6) . It's on page 4 of
the ordinance.
Paul Krauss: I think you were looking to delete it from the CBD district?
Councilman Boyt: Central business district.
1 Paul Krauss: Yeah. That would have to be in Section 20-734(4) on the existing
Code.
ICouncilman Boyt: Section...That's where you've got it listed now.
Councilman Johnson: As a conditional use. Bill, the inner section where the
current Holiday.
Councilman Boyt: Okay, maybe we have the wrong district.
IICouncilman Johnson: That's Business Highway at that point.
Paul Krauss: The existing ordinance is already established convenience stores
with gas pumps as a conditional use. WS hadn't proposed changing this in this
amended ordinance.
Councilman Boyt: Well, that's what I'm proposing.
' Paul Krauss: Right and what you would need to amend is Section 20-734(4) of the
existing ordinance were convenience stores with gas pumps are listed as a
' conditional use in the CBD district.
Councilman Boyt: Okay. That would be my intent.
' Mayor Chmiel: Could you give me your reasoning on that Bill.
Councilman Boyt: Well, I think when I started out, I know that the Council that
11 started this had several different motives but mine was simple to stop the
multiplication of convenience stores with gas pumps in our central business
district. We've got enough and I think that that's solved by just not allowing
it in the district.
Councilman Johnson: We have one.
IICouncilman Boyt: What about the one that's already been approved down in right
down here.
1
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City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990 1
Paul Krauss: Charlie James? I
Councilman Boyt: Yeah.
Paul Krauss: That's outside of the Central Business District.
Councilman Johnson: That's in the BG. '
Paul Krauss: The only gas pump operation we have is the Brooke's Superette.
Councilman Boyt: Okay. Well, I don't know about the BG district but I think ,
the central business district we shouldn't be encouraging them there. Maybe
it's not a possibility anyway.
Councilman Johnson: Bill? Central business district goes basically from north 1
of the railroad tracks to the laundrymat, what is it? Country clean? Then
across to the bank, the new bank. Right through Filly's. From the map here,
it looks lanes 11 and 12 are in central business district and the other lanes
may be in a different district.
Mayor Chmiel: John, you might have to move those. ,
Councilman Boyt: Well if that doesn't hit at it. I don't think 250 feet does
anything for us because the Standard and the Holiday station are within 250 feet
of each other. That means they could put on on all four corners. That's what I
was trying to get away from.
Councilman Johnson: Okay the four corners. One is IOP. One is BN and two are
Business Highway. We have one business neighborhood which is where the daycare
center and the Total are. Business highway is where the Holiday and the Amoco
station is. Then the other corner there is industrial IOP. Industrial office
park. What do we allow for gas stations in the industrial office park?
Mayor Chmiel: I don't think we do do we? I
Paul Krauss: We don't.
Councilman Boyt: Okay. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. ,
Councilman Johnson: What about business neighborhood?
Paul Krauss: Business neighborhood. We are proposing that... 1
Councilman Johnson: Business neighborhood should be the 250 and that
effectively.
Mayor Chmiel: Just keeping it as he has it I think pretty much spells it all
out. 1
Councilman Johnson: There's no new convenience stores with gas pumps at that
intersection as it's written because they're not allowed in IOP. They've got to
be 250 feet apart in the business neighborhood so it would be too close for the
Total. The Total.
1
65
City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
ICouncilman Boyt: Maybe we pass this and see how it works.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah I think we should. I think we should accept staff
mm that the City Council approve the second reading.
Irecaendation
Councilman Workman: If I could Hake one comment. I'm getting so nervous with
this whole sticky mess here. I think it's getting out of control. One thing I
1 do have a concern about is, we're willing to put these darn things 200, 500 feet
apart but we're only willing to get about a 100 foot separation from these gas
tanks to a residential.
IIMayor Chmiel: Residential, that's right. I thought there was something we
discussed at the time getting a greater depth to residential. That there was a
reason for it.
IIPaul Krauss: I received no explicit direction to change it but you indicated
that it could be raised again at the second reading.
1 Councilman Boyt: Do you want to make it 250? I'm fine with that.
Councilman Workman: At least.
II
Mayor Chmiel: I think from residential it should be.
' Councilman Boyt: That's fine with me.
Councilman Workman: I think a baby's crib is more important than another Amoco.
IICouncilman Boyt: Why don't you move an amendment.
Councilman Johnson: You know Don, I'd like to run a puff model on filling a
1 tank and seeing under what various meteorlogical conditions, probably take
your... inversion condition and see what it'd be at 100 feet and 200 feet for
your benzine tyleneol factions?
Councilman Boyt: Do you want to table this until you do then?
11 Mayor Chrael: I don't think that would be necessary. I think if we kept the
distance from residential. That was one of my major concerns.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, that was mine too.
IMayor Chmiel: And that would provide that safety aspect of it.
II Councilman Workman: I guess what I'm saying is, we're not going to, to a very
slight extent, we're going to restrict how people can use their property to
build convenience stores and gas pumps and we're not going to do a very good job
11 think.it. It's kind of, we have a problem at Brooke's with neighbors too close I
think. That's where I'm at. I think the previous Council tried to help a local
businessman out here and it's gotten to be a little bit crazy. I'm not real
happy with this one. '
IICouncilman Boyt: Well you get convenience stores defined. Convenience stores
with gas pumps defined and motor fuel and service stations defined and we don't
11
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City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
have any of that now. I
Councilman Workman: Well we only want thew, defined so we can restrict them.
Councilman Johnson: So you can control it. I
Councilman Workman: Restrict. Control. It's all the same.
Councilwoman Dimler: It gets back to, do we need this to have definitions, do
we need an ordinance?
Paul Krauss: You would need to change the ordinance to put that in the
definition section, yes.
Councilwoman Dimler: But we could just put in the definitions and leave it at 1
that.
Councilman Boyt: We have done a good bit here in terms of changing our zoning ,
ordinance to then fit our definitions. We've really not addressed, we haven't
figured out an answer. After a year of study, we haven't figured out an answer
to how do we control the number of convenience stores with gas pumps. ,
Councilwoman Dinner: Maybe we don't have to.
Councilman Boyt: And I guess we're giving up on that but we've figured out a
lot of other answers that are going to help us. We've defined things and we've
indicated what zones we want then in.
Councilman Workman: I'm willing to go along. Again, I think it's going to have
some gaps. We can't stop people from doing things and I think again, we've got
it all tidied up and we spent a lot of time and money to figure this all out. I
don't know that we have but I'm not saying let's throw the whole thing out and
let's get rid of it because there's some good things about it. Again, it's a
trend of we're not very good at controlling the private sector on where we want
them to be. They've got a lot of options out there and we probably ought to
stay the hell out. I think we spent too much time on this and I'm ready to get
this passed.
Mayor Chmiel: Let's move it with your recommendation of the restrictive setback
from residential. 250.
Councilman Boyt: I'll second that. '
Mayor C1viiel moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to approve the final reading of an
Ordinance amending Chapter 20 of the Chanhassen City Code by adding provisions
concerning convenience stores and motor fuel stations with the setback of the
250 feet for the gas pumps from residential property. All voted in favor except
Councilwoman Dimler who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1.
Mayor Cfimiel: Do you want to give your reason? 1
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II ;City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
ICouncilwoman Ditrler: Yes I do. I think this ordinance came about out of a
protection for a businessman. I never have believed in that cause and I believe
that motive may have been wrong. I do believe there are same good things in
I this ordinance but I still don't want to interfere with the free market system.
Again, I will say that I feel that we are closing the barn door after the cows
are out. I don't think this ordinance is going to make a whole lot of
Idifference and that's why I'm opposing it.
•
Mayor Chmiel: Well, I think there's some specific areas that are going to be
' better than what's existing.
Councilman Johnson: I'd like to say it was the minority of the last Council
trying to protect a single businessman.
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT REGARDING REVISIONS TO THE ZONING ORDINANCE TO ALLOW
' FOR THE REVIEW AND GRANTING OF CONDITIONAL USE PERMITS FOR USES THAT ARE
TMEPORARY IN NATURE IN ALL DISTRICTS, FIRST READING.
Paul Krauss: Would you like me to go through this one? We've continued it
I
before. There are some people I know who are waiting for, well we've got a
group here waiting on that annexation from Victoria.
1 Councilman Workman: I don't have any problems with this.
Councilwoman Dirtier: I don't have any problems with 6.
IMayor Qi'iel: I don't have any problems.
Councilman Boyt: Well I'd like to add. This is really quick. Under Districts
II Paul has starred the conditions that he thinks are appropriate. I would like to
add in A-1, 1 and 4. In A-2, 1 and 13.
Councilman Workman: Are you saying these are not in there now?
Councilman Boyt: Yeah. What Paul did was he went through and starred the
conditions that he thought would be appropriate for temporary conditional use
permits so we get beyond just churches. And I'm saying, and maybe same of you
have others you want to see added but not all of these were added. Just the
ones he starred. I think in R-4 we should add 2 and 3.
IIPaul Krauss: Bill, could you start at the top of this?
I Councilman Boyt: Yeah. A-1, 1 and 4. A-2, 1 and 13. Both exactly the same
things. R-4, 2 and 3. R-8, 2. R-12, 3 and 4. Then I would suggest, well I
drop that one.
' Mayor Chmiel: What did you hit on R-8?
Cbuncilsman Boyt: R-8 was 2. Then in IOP, 1 and 6. The logic I think behind
II all those, because I went through there and I said, which ones of these
represent either something that doesn't fit the nature of the district, which I
think IOP, cement mix plants don't fit the nature of that district, or are
temporary enough in nature that a person isn't making a major investment when
68
City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990 II
they put it in and therefore we ought to be able to give them a temporary
conditional use permit rather than something that goes with the building forever
or the property forever from there. So along with the ones that Paul starred.
Cbunciltran Johnson: Are we passing then all the ones that are starred will be
moved into a temporary?
Councilman Boyt: I would amend with those with the numbers that I added. '
Mayor Chmiel: Amend with what's existing for each of those districts as Bill
has indicated. ,
Councilman Workman: We have kennels in R-4?
Councilman Boyt: Group homes is probably a problem? ,
Councilman Johnson: By state law I think.
Roger Knutson: State law refers to group haves, certain categories, as being
conditional uses, not interim uses but this is just a first reading and we'll
get back to you on that.
Councilman Boyt: As far as the kennels.
Mayor Chmiel: Private kennels under that R-4 was one of the ones that. 1
Councilman Boyt: It's not a conditional use and I'm saying that's almost
perfect for interim conditional use because if we grant it, we sure don't want
to grandfather it in forever.
Councilman Johnson: Do you realize that 3 cats requires a private kennel? 1
Councilman Boyt: So does 3 dogs.
Councilman Johnson: I must admit when my 3 dogs were alive. '
Mayor Chmiel: You didn't have one did you?
Councilman Johnson: No. I had 3 house dogs. ,
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, with those specific amendments to what's existing for the
first reading. Do I have a motion?
Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve Zoning Ordinance
Amendment regarding revisions to the Zoning Ordinance to allow for the review I
and granting of conditional use permits for uses that are temporary in nature in
all districts, first reading, as staff presented with the following additions:
A-1 - 1, 4 ,
A-2 - 1, 13
R-4 - 2, 3
R-8 - 2
R-12 - 3, 4
IOP - 1, 6
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IICity Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
IIAll voted in favor and the motion carried.
II Councilman Boyt: Do we want to amend to skip to the one that everybody's
sitting here for?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, I think we will.
PROVISION OF SEWER SERVICE/POTENTIAL ANNEXATION FOR SUBDIVISION PROPOSED ON
1 CHANHASSEN/VICTORIA BORDER, PLANNING DIRECTOR.
Paul Krauss: Staff has been contacted by the City Planner from Victoria and by
I the proposed developer concerning a piece of ground that's located mostly in
Victoria but partially in Chanhassen. The proposal is to subdivide the property
into I believe 8 lots. They would need to get both access and utilities from
' Chanhassen. It's not physically accessible from Victoria. The old railway line
separates it from the rest of the community and utilities in Victoria are
located sane distance away. In viewing this, we felt that the reasonable way of
approaching this was to take it before you and ask you for your direction. When
I we at a staff level looked at this, the first thing that occurred to us is
should we look at annexation. We could provide services. The City Engineer has
told us we have the utilities up in that area. We haven't had any engineering
II work done. We could provide access. The street needs to be upgraded somewhat
to serve it but given the lay of the land over there, the annexation question is
one that we felt we need to get your feedback on. So tonight we're seeking your
direction on how to proceed with this and we will get back to the developer and
property owners are here tonight and the City of Victoria.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Just as a real quick one, I would suggest that as far as
II we're concerned, recommend that that subdivision not be allowed to occur unless
the remaining portion of the parcel is annexed into the City of Chanhassen. At
least that's my feeling.
IICouncilman Boyt: I would second that.
Councilman Johnson: In the existing subdivision, there are 5, 6, 7, 8 and ,part
Iof Lot 2 even. That's kind of odd. Is there a home on 8?
Paul Krauss: I think 8's undeveloped. 7 has a home.
IIMayor Chmiel: Maybe if we could. Have someone just address it if you would.
I David Hensing: My name is David Hensing. I'm a consulting engineer. I'd like
to present Mr. Ladd Delowich and his wife. They are the owners of residence.
They live in Chanhassen. The property is split. The property east of this line
is Chanhassen. The property west of this line is Victoria. What we've done is
' we've laid out a subdivision using Chanhassen's ordinances with wetland setbacks
and lot sizes just to see how it would fit. There's been a couple of different
sketches that we've worked with Paul. The one you have I think is a little bit
I different. We were going to put all of the property in Chanhassen in one lot
but what we have now is 6 new lots and the existing have would be on this lot.
If you're familiar with Pipewood Curve off of TH 7, right near the Cross
of Glory Lutheran Church, this comes in and then their's is the large white
70
City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
house with the white columns. Mr. Delowich originally contacted me. Wanted to '
proceed with his plat through Victoria and we had another sketch, as a matter of
fact we would have more lots and less wetland setbacks, etc. but in visiting
with your staff it was indicated that we should abide by your ordinances...so
we're eager to proceed. We're excited about the project and seek your guidance.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Councilman Johnson: Do the owners care whether they're in Victoria or
Chanhassen?
David Hensing: Only to the point that the requirements in Victoria are a little '
less restrictive and it yeilds one more lot.
Mr. Delowich: I'm not even really so terribly interested in the extra lot.
Fine, but what it does and if we had the other drawing we could point it out, is
it moves that whole drive further away from my house. Therefore closer to...on
the wetland. That would be the major advantage in being able to go... If we do '
it, the best of both worlds for us would be able to do it under the Victoria
guidelines but let Chanhassen annex. That would be the best of both worlds.
Don Ashworth: They're going to have to petition for it. ,
Mayor Chmiel: You would have to petition basically for this. You would have to
do the petition for this for the annexation. You're aware of that? ,
Councilman Johnson: What about the MUSA line? Our MUSA line basically I think
stops out here doesn't it? Our MUSA line cannot extend into the city of
Victoria. How's the Met Council going to allow us to, we'd have to amend the
MUSA line also I would assume.
Mr. Delowich: We are within the Victoria MUSA line. f
Paul Krauss: It's all served area. It's not our corporate limits but it's
Victoria's. I don't know how they view that but it's all served. '
Councilman Johnson: So it's served by the Victoria MUSA line which would go
into the same pipe as what we're putting it in anyway so it all plops together.
So there's no net change in MUSA line for the area? Okay.
Mayor Ctmiel moved, Councilman Boyt seconded that the subdivision for Mr. and 1
Mrs. Delowich not be allowed to occur unless the remaining portion of the parcel
is annexed into the City of Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. I
Councilman Johnson: I'd like to, you know it's going to rake an odd little
triangle of Victoria also.
( Councilman Boyt: There's only one way they can do it.
Councilman Workman: We are a frugal community.
I
71
City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
I Mayor Chmiel: hat's basically what it is. That's what it boils down to. That
was my motion to annex into the City of Chanhassen.
IICONSIDER EXTENDED CONTRACT TO PROVIDE ANIMAL CONTROL SERVICES TO THE CITIES OF
SHOREWOOD, GREENWOOD, EXCELSIOR, TONKA BAY AND VICTORIA.
IIDon Ashworth: Jim will not be present this evening. If I can give the report.
Mayor Chmiel: I certainly hope so.
IDon Ashworth: You have the report from Jim Chaffee. I should note that I have
a manager's carelent. I'd asked for a formula to be developed by the finance
' department. I firmly believe in that formula as a means to ensure that we do
not create a system whereby private business would not be competing with us. I
was asked though to relook at some of the numbers in terms of how realistic is
II it if a private business were to carry out this function. Would they logically
be paying $10.00 per hour for animal services and I guess in further review, I
would respond to that question by saying no. I think that anyone going into
this type of business, historically it's shown that they have hired people at
1 the very end of this, very low end of the schedule and accordingly, even if you
used $8.00 per hour and used the formula, you're still at $20.00 to $22.00 per
hour. The short and long of it is that I firmly believe that at $22.00 an hour,
the City will be fully reimbursed. I do have a real concern that the contract
not be looked at as a long term type of contract and I say that thinking about
future building needs. Our people and recognizing that this type of a function
Icould actually limit our own ability to stay in this building.
Councilman Johnson: 2 years. I mean why 3 years? 3 years seems kind of long.
The objective is to get back to where there is another service. We used to have
Ia Tri-cities Animal Service and that one died.
Councilman Boyt: I think we're talking about vehicle as a driving force here.
IPurchasing a vehicle.
Mayor Gael: There was one that was pa id off in the 3 years,ars, you re right.
Yeah, that was the position. And I think too, what Don just said is I don't
I think we want to be in a long term portion but I think that if it's not going to
cost anything and we can assist our adjacent cities with what we have, I think
it would be a good thing for us to do.
1 Councilman Johnson: It basically gets us a little extra coverage for free.
I Councilman Workman: So now we've got free animal service. We've got a free
community center. We've got a free, I don't know, we've got free everything.
Councilman Boyt: I would move approval of the animal contract as stated in the
Istaff report for $22.00.
Councilman Johnson: Second.
1 Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I would question the $.96 an hour for
admanstrative time for Scott at 1 hour a week. I also question the secretarial
I
72
City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990 II
11 time although that might be a little closer to the time spent but an $1.00 an
hour?
Councilman Boyt: No. You've got to take 20 times that. They're saying that 1
these people are contracting for 20 hours a week so what does that break out to
in a per hour charge? So the secretarial time would be $10.00 an hour.
Councilwoman Dimler: But we're not saying then that they're going to spend 1
hour and 2 hours a week.
Councilman Boyt: Well no. I think that's what they are saying and I think
you're right to say well, is that really accurate or not. Maybe Zydowsky does a
lot of this work without turning it over to Scott and Carol. ,
Councilman Johnson: A majority of it.
Mayor Chr►iel: Or a good share of it. I
Councilman Boyt: I worked with Don today from 3 different angles on how do we
get reasonable cost for this thing and we kept caring up with $22.00. So
personally I'm pretty comfortable that that's accurate.
Councilwoman Dimler: Have we got a time limit? It will be 3 years you're
saying?
Mayor Chriel: Yes. Within a 3 year period I think.
Councilwoman Dimler: But what incentive are we giving them to look for private?
Mayor Ch*►iel: The incentive we're giving them is at the end of 3 years we no
longer will provide the service.
Councilwoman Dimler: But what incentive are we giving them to look in the
meantime to shorten it up?
Mayor amiel: Well, if they don't have anything, then they never thought of it.
I think they have to do that on their initiative to see what they can acquire '
for themselves.
Councilman Johnson: I've seen what? Like 3 different of these services fail in
the last 5 or 10 years. There's a big one that Minneapolis had that failed and
really caused a problem up there. I think a lot of suburbs, the Tri-City one
here fell apart. I can't renerber what the third one was but there was another
commercial one. It's a service that may be able to be provided by the private
sector. Maybe better provided by the public sector.
Councilwoman Dimler: So that we can fail? Is that what you're saying? I
Councilman Johnson: Well same services, a private consulting firm is, you can't
do it because of your overhead and stuff.
Councilwoman Dimler: I still don't like our taxpayers having to maybe subsidize
this if...
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II 'City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
Mayor Gael: Right now we're not subsidizing.
Councilwoman Dimler: Right but if we go to that point and we've told them for 3
years and we get to a point where we are subsidizing them and we've got a 3 year
contract here, we can't very well pull out of it. I'm real uncomfortable with
that.
' Councilman Boyt: No, it's open to, the price is open to negotiation every year.
We're not locking that in.
Mayor Chmiel: That's right. That's vghat Jim indicated last time.
' Councilman Workman: What if these communities drop out?
Councilwoman Dimler: They have an option to drop out.
Councilman Workman: What if they drop out in 6 months?
Councilman Johnson: We have to sell the car.
' Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, I have a real problems with another vehicle too.
Councilman Boyt: One of the things that sells this outside of it's a nice thing
to do for our neighbors, is that we're giving, our citizens are getting much
better animal control service than they were getting 2 years ago. Probably
better than they were getting a year ago. We're taking somebody and we're
' paying them more than a private vendor would pay in this area and we're giving
and getting better service. This contract allows us to keep that person full
time. That's a heck of a benefit to us as a community. We've now, $17.00
wasn't covering our costs. $22.00 is probably covering our costs and in the
course of the next year we're going to know and if it isn't, then next year
we'll propose a higher amount.
' Councilman Workman: Do we have detailed records of these animal pick-ups, etc.
Don?
Don Ashworth: Yes.
Councilman Workman: How extensive are they?
IIDon Ashworth: At issue though, if you're trying to get adminstrative costs,
which I really questioned in Jim's report. Secretarial and some of the others,
I don't think that we have good records because we really don't have, the
IIservices isn't going, right?
Councilman Workman: I'm saying, I want to see records that show that we have
I such a serious animal problem in this town that we've got to add people for 40
hours a week. That's what I'm concerned about. I understand trying to blanket
every hour with both police and ambulance and animal control. The animal
control is, it's rare for one person in a lifetime to have a serious animal
problem in their own yard.
Councilman Johnson: I picked up a dog this week.
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City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
II
Councilman Workman: I'm saying, I don't see the detailed records that show that II
we've got such an animal control problem that we've got to extend this thing so
far out and wide and beyond for us to get really what I would say is a delivery
service.
Mayor Chmiel: On the other hand you can look at it Tom as the services that are
provided in the event that there are those dogs and you're saying what total
numbers are there will be taken care of without any problem as well. I
Councilw man Dimler: But in Chanhassen that would be anyway because we have the
service for ourselves.
Councilman Johnson: But we'll have more of it. We'll have 20 hours.
Mayor Chmiel: They'll have a better chance to contain then. '
Councilwoman Dimler: I never indicated that I thought we should make Zydowsky
and Deb Rand go part time as a result of rejecting this. We can find other
things for then to do. You understand what I'm saying?
Mayor Chriel: Yeah, but it's just providing another kind of service because of
the amount of driving that they're going to do, there's that additional exposure
that's being shown through the City as well.
Councilman Workman: But we don't know how many dog problems we have a week or a
month.
•
Councilman Boyt: Well we do. I don't have the numbers right with me but I get
• them every month at Public Safety.
Phyllis Pope: My name is Phyllis Pope and I walk my dog on a leash nearly every
day. Probably 3 miles most days and I don't think that there's a time that I'm
out walking that I've not seen these dogs and I'd hate to see what it would be
at less service in Chanhassen. I think we've got good service now. People
respond fast and they're very courteous. '
Don Ashworth: To respond to the question though, my recollection of the 1990
budgetary process was one in which we were increasing the overall availability
of CSO's. Not necessarily increasing the amount of animal control for 1990.
We're looking at 20 hours per week for animal control. I did not recall that we
were increasing the CSO portion. We're moving from one full time position and a
half time position to two full time positions with the additional half being '
picked up through these contracts.
Councilman Workman: So we're really gaining... '
Don Ashworth: We're not gaining anything. We're not really losing anything.
Councilman Boyt: We're gaining a body in that we've got somebody full time ,
which means we can probably hold onto them better than trying to get them, when
they're working a thousand hours.
Councilman Johnson: If he's patrolling Greenwood and a dog complaint canes in
in Chanhassen, he's available to drive down here and pick it up. I had a dog
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II "City Council Meeting - January 8, 1990
•
complaint. I had 2 dogs running loose 2 weeks ago which I called the Carver
County Sheriff on Sunday and we had nobody on patrol on Sunday so basically he
1 says, if you can go out and get those two dogs. One Airedale and a Laborador
and contain then yourself, we'll cane get then. Otherwise they're running free.
I wasn't personally going to go out and try to capture this Airedale and
IILaborador that I didn't know. The one dog I did know.
Councilman Workman: And I don't suggest you do. I'm just saying, what
community that doesn't have a police force seriously has 24 hour a day coverage.
II Not us and not a lot of communities. I'm just saying it's a very expensive
deal.
IICouncilman Johnson: We're not proposing 24 hours a day.
Councilman Workman: I know and I would never propose that a loose dog isn't a
problem at any given time of the day. I'm just saying, we're going to always
1 have loose dogs. People are going to let their dogs off. People who own the
dogs let their dogs run free. Again, we can't fix every problem but I just
don't see the gain in us extending ourselves beyond the border so far. I'm not
I saying reduce and get rid of animal control. I'm just saying the gain that
we're getting to get a 4 wheel drive pick-up or vehicle, to do the other
communities isn't really I don't think advantageous to the City. But why don't
Iwe take a vote.
Don Ashworth: I do have a response to that one question if I may.
IIMayor Chmiel: What's the answer.
Don Ashworth: The question was, what happens if they drop out. They can't.
I They've got to take and pay you. If they drop out, they're still obligated to
pay unless you let them off the hook. That's paragraph 14.
1 Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to provide animal control
services on a contractual basis to the cities of Greenwood, Shorewood,
Excelsior, Victoria and Tonka Bay for a period of 3 years. Councilman Boyt,
1 Councilman Johnson and Mayor Chmiel voted in favor and Councilman Workmand and
Councilwoman Dimler voted in opposition. The motion carried with a 3 to 2 vote.
1 Mayor Ch iel: Would you care to give your reasons or you already stated them.
Councilwoman Dimler: Well I pretty much stated than but if we want to get
I extra, get Bob Zydowsky full time we can do it without having this contract.
Also, if you want another vehicle we can do it without this contract. I just
think it's...
1 Councilman Johnson: Yeah, it will just cost our citizens to do it.
Mayor Ch iel: I don't think it's going to cost us those amount of dollars. If
1 I did, I think I would vote the opposite way. Believe me.
1
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