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5. Wetland Alternation Permit 7007 Cheyenne Trail
b5' IC ITY O F P.C. DATE: Feb. 21, -t 0 AC\ CIIANHA! !E N C.C. DATE: Mar. 12, 1990 CASE NO: 89-1 WAP .Z.L' — - Prepared by: Olsen/v I . STAFF REPORT I PROPOSAL: Wetland Alteration Permit for Fill along Lotus Lake Action by City Administrat r Ii Endorsailk LOCATION: Colonial Grove Recreational Beachlot Rejs:t.r`Date I _A Date Subs,ied to Co pir is—,rt Date 5;. ~'t;u0 to t,c,unc; I APPLICANT: Lotus Lake Betterment Association Dr. Charles Hirt _3 -_3 - 1 2-9-Q i 7007 Cheyenne Trail IChanhassen, MN 55317 1 PRESENT ZONING: RSF, Residential Single Family ACREAGE: Approximately 1 acre - ' DENSITY: N/A ADJACENT ZONING IAND LAND USE: N- RSF; vacant S- RSF; 'single family IQ E- RSF; single family 12 W- Lotus Lake IWATER AND SEWER: Water and sewer is available to the property. IFos PHYSICAL CHARAC. : , The lot slopes toward Lotus Lake with the area adjacent to Lotus Lake previously containing wetland vegetation. The area now contains rock and sod. 2000 LAND USE PLAN: Residential Low Density II II r.' 1 'LAIte l`�. C 'I- T • S ' k "� ' u1I ,I��I�� SHASTA CIRC. - - - ` ,,_ � WEST a SSTTA CIRCL' R o� �.� • OLY em CIRCL_. TRA LR1E .�1 I��' CLE {.�� . ER , NI f-'104. yio ',�`�I CASTLE RT" R ��� *�� -: : .�! 11=111111■ '....artm am •' \ ', �.1 FOX HOLLOW piA 'rte \ N, A., �'��� .!���\ �� OR I V E• ts 46 ..s. \''k44, 4 -7ee.•JzcO.3•i►V�`M laitr .. _-am , � ' IWCTAIL •" 4` ' 111111 ■ �` , • mir .L'n'►I-' :r;` ; ' ;7. COURT ,4I MI 4.1.-Mintiall IllaAgel 11 ..7/X 714 .- Al ___I :-=-4 __ _ __ " --- 0 e 7. - , _.-strAl.r.,._. _ . Tr.,,7, , •r70\rA \,..._ "44 / / 114..- ii, 41 ' / . . RD . r i tip ty.o. `'t L.:a lit- •'� � r VI/ _-:/ \.\ *',,111111 j `4.„,..r., : _. .jig �I■=�i ■ aI/- I• � .:r�"1� �� UMW '4.VIC311444 ;;►rRy v � '•� 'j � I LOTUS ---�� , , • ' i���,,-`��e�� � ��*��• '` c `�.�� !fit.� R!�i 1 akrk4AIS OV:Iii : ■--Vrs, ,q- ‘. Ve. AWP 1' tI ' mimeo*\ 4 1/11/ L0911..irA- ■ `�Z SHAOOWMERE --, r ,• a 44 _ ' •. , `�� ' �' off//' �! ����,- \,lL jnii S � 0h �'e ' ,I�\ LADE N &„wr-- '_,r. 40 ‘,„„, ,.,_ ,Ni - ,t)*.ii ow- Iv. talk\ /Aft A 7 11■■ "3..ii, , ' Am■ vim.... ,----„,-,44,v,,, Vv,e Oil ' 'c 5iff /C_'.....,,,,,, - -win Efili"i"-'1ip, SA..ft7, '"' a - dque tr---; algigi Whit IIli y f � ,� _ �i r ���� '" ��� P ■ 7400 _ mrsue`oo sO�msoi• / �'op� :v im /kid ar rivra , , , `� .ii'- 11 "'Illai'lwri- 7.11i warm .. hai istth ‘, 7‘,i 'I . R. 1 2irl 01 : zr :la Is p..: NM .1.1.v. T am ' :._,:4 \It, I . ., ..... :r.--; Zlir rff, :- V ill finfil 111111111111111 iaiPN ` MIMI f.i-V;i•911 !. % 1 I I. [midi L ■ �IIII 111;11 r ./ 1 .111111 ���, -_TM r. Lotus Lake Betterment Assoc. WAP I February 21, 1990 Page 2 BACKGROUND A wetland area adjacent to Lotus Lake was filled in the early summer of 1988 along three properties (Frost, Pfankuch and recreational beachlot - Attachment #1) . While the property was being filled, staff was contacted by a resident questioning whether this was approved. Staff from the Planning and Engineering Department went out to the site to determine exactly what was taking place. The staff that visited the site stated to the applicant that what they were doing required a grading permit and that any further activity on the site was not permitted until a grading permit was obtained. The contractor filling the site came to City Hall and filled out an application for a grading permit (Attachment #2) . The Planning Department again visited the site to determine if a wetland existed. Staff saw that wetland vegetation had existed and that a wetland alteration per- mit was required. Staff contacted the applicants and stated that , what was occurring was not permitted without a wetland alteration permit (Attachment #3) . Staff visited the site with Paul Burke of the Fish and Wildlife Service who provided a report on the site dated June 30, 1988 (Attachment #4) . After several contacts with the applicants, an application was filed for a wetland alteration permit by Mr. Frost and Mr. Pfankuch on January 12, 1989. The application for the Pfankuch and Frost wetland alteration permit was brought before the Planning Commission on February 15, 1989 (Attachment #5) . The Planning Commission tabled action until it could be clarified what actually occurred between the applicants and staff and to allow time for the Lotus Lake Betterment Association (recreational beachlot) to be included in the wetland alteration permit application since it became apparent that the wetland on their property was also filled. Staff was in contact with the Fish and Wildlife, Corps of Engineers and the Department of Natural Resources at the beginning of this process. The DNR responded that the fill was in violation of Minnesota Rules 6115.0190 and that any permit to fill below the ordinary high water mark would be denied. Pat Lynch of the DNR stated that any fill below the ordinary high water mark would be required to be removed and the area restored. Since the DNR was involved, staff felt that we should work with the DNR and the Fish and Wildlife to provide a plan agreeable to all regulatory parties as to the amount of fill area that needed to be removed and how much of the wetland should be restored. The City and the DNR are the two agencies which have jurisdiction over the wetland. The Fish and Wildlife was used as a resource. The DNR has required the property owners to remove the fill up to the ordinary high water mark by May 1, 1990 (Attachment 6 ) . The DNR has staked out the OHWM where the applicants have to remove the fill. Note: The year between tabling action by the Planning Commission and the current application (February, 1989 through February, 1990) was a result of staff and the applicant waiting for the DNR to decide how much of the wetland had to be restored. I I II - Lotus Lake Betterment Assoc. WAP February 21, 1990 Page 3 ANALYSIS Dr. Charles Hirt, representing the Lotus Lake Betterment Association has made application to the City for a wetland alteration permit (after the fact) to allow for the filling of a wetland adjacent to Lotus Lake. The applicant is proposing to ' remove the fill below the ordinary high water mark as required by the DNR. Staff has reviewed existing conditions prior to deve- lopment of the area and more recent surveys to determine the existing edge of the wetland prior to the alteration in 1988 ' (Attachment #8) . Staff also used the "survey" provided by the contractor filling the area in 1988 as part of the grading per- mit (Attachment #9) . After review of past conditions, it is apparent that the wetland boundary went well beyond the ordinary high water mark. ' Attachment #10 shows the approximate edge of the wetland over the three subject properties. The property owners stated that the purpose of the fill was to remove purple loosestrife. Purple loosestrife is a noxious weed for which there is no known way to ' remove permanently from wetlands. What is known is that altering a wetland by dredging and filling only increases and proliferates purple loosestrife. The photographs provided by one of the pro- perty owners shows purple loosestrife growing through the sod (Attachment #11) . The City has consistently maintained a policy of no net loss of wetlands. When wetland alteration permits are permitted the end result is an improved wetland. Typically, Class B wetlands are the type of wetland allowed to be altered and improved. Class A ' wetlands are typically not allowed to be altered and only if it is an improvement to the quality of the wetland. Filling a Class A wetland is not an improvement to the quality of the wetland. The filling took place prior to the contacting the City, DNR, etc. and at the very least the contractor doing the work should have known to contact the applicable regulatory agency. As a result, an extensive amount of wetland has been removed and replaced with sod and gravel. Whatever benefits the wetland pro- vided in terms of water quality, natural habitat, etc. , no longer ' exists. If the applicant had following the correct procedure and applied for a wetland alteration permit prior to any alteration, staff would have recommended against filling the wetland and would have recommended another means of removing the purpose ' loosestrife. Therefore, staff is recommending that the fill be removed to the previous edge of the wetland, beyond the DNR's requirement of only to the ordinary high water mark. We not only ' desire to return a valuable wetland to its natural state, but also to avoid creating what we believe to be a poor precedent. If fill is allowed to remain it would send a signal that illegal filling is an acceptable way in which to circumvent the wetland protection ordinance. I I/ Lotus Lake Betterment Assoc. WAP - February 21, 1990 Page 4 The applicant is proposing to remove a 25 ' x 36 ' x 30 ' area of fill (Attachment #12) . Staff is recommending that the area of fill removed be 25 ' x 45 ' 30 ' (Attachment 13) . Staff is increasing the depth from 36 feet to 45 feet. This is consistent with the approximate edge of the unaltered wetland. The dock on the property will have to be accessed by a boardwalk which will permit the wetland to return to its natural state. A pathway or other means of access to the dock which removes wetland should not be permitted. Staff will stake the area of fill which shall be removed. ' PLANNING COMMISSION UPDATE The Planning Commission recommended approval of the wetland 1 alteration permit with staff' s conditions. The Commission added to condition #1 that the fill will need to be removed by June 15th. The Commission also added Condition #5 that states the applicant will have to submit and receive approval for a grading and erosion control plan prior to any work to be done on the site. I RECOMMENDATION Planning staff recommends the City Council adopt the following ' motion: "The City Council approves of Wetland Alteration Permit #89-1 with the following conditions: 1. The applicant shall remove 25 ' x 45 ' x 30 ' of fill measuring from the property line adjacent to Lotus Lake as shown on the final plat. The fill will be removed by June 15, 1990, using the typical cross section provided by the DNR. 2 . The applicant shall be permitted one boardwalk through the restored wetland to provide access to the dock. 3 . The area of removed fill shall be allowed to restore to a natural state. 4. Any purple loosestrife that returns shall be immediately ' removed as recommended by the Fish and Wildlife Service manual, "Spread, Impact and Control of Purple Loosestrife in North America Wetlands" . 5. Prior to any work being done on the site, the applicant shall submit for City staff approval a grading and erosion control plan. " 1 I II Lotus Lake Betterment Assoc. WAP February 21, 1990 Page 5 1 ATTACHMENTS 1. Area of Filled Wetland. I 2 . 3 . Grading Permit Application for Pfankuch. Letter to Pfankuch and Frost dated August 25, 1988. Letter from US Dept. of Interior dated July 11, 1988. Letter from US Dept. of Interior dated August 31, 1988. 1 Memo from Paul Burke dated February 10, 1989. 4 . Planning Commission minutes dated February 15, 1989. 5. Letter from DNR dated February 2, 1989. I 6 . Letter from DNR dated October 27, 1989. 8 . Plan indicating pre-existing wetland conditions. 9. Area grading for Lots 1 and 2 proposed by contractor. I 10. Edge of Wetland prior to alteration. 11. Photographs. 12 . Applicant' s site plan illustrating area of fill to be removed. 12a. DNR proposal of removal of fill. 1 13. City' s proposal of removal of fill. 14 . DNR typical cross section. 15 . Letter to Dr. Charles Hirt from DNR dated December 6, 1989. 1 16 . Letter to Dr. Hirt, Mr. Pfankuch and Mr. Frost dated December 11, 1989. 17. Planning Commission minutes dated February 21, 1990. I I 1 I I 1 1 1 I II f 401111 • i • COLONIA L GROVE AT 1 I DA RE L.L E ,q/VD ,q 550 G/A 7- 5 P i kitrA Of 10-‘ertA"1:) 5 , L. A N D 5 U,Q J, KE 4 ,►a- fi L4 i o0 „.., .„--,. ..?,4.0 .:s. 4/ 1 • m•Er tit \ /., �, ,. "'' ter / / , cll. 9 i9 6 .s-� N IASE/-IENT ■ �'�e 2/(k__ S \ ,r\ 69 0�S ,��,�� Sys �. .� A I �� • 6S` 1.„ ... . k Q_ ) a /y� ��S I % \ \ •v 0...e°o 475 ?3_.25 93-2s 4. 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C�Lt=�'�'©© ' -O'lllihi 1 CU/ Tele•hone $\•/75 / Address / I Lot / ,I, Block d Subdivision ISite Address 1(0,1100 55171/1 / /64; I Description of w•ik to be don- : 0 r, , _ 4 p i : J " 4 0 sl- LE.- a • I IIndicate the use c or occupancy for which the proposed wo k is Iintended:. 't / to /1 °' 4 I . Estimated quantity of excavation _ 2 cubic yards • Plot plan showing present elevations. I Elevations after excavation is completed: gq' 5' neighboring I Elevations of i g ro A , property within 15 feet of excavation: ILocation of any buildings or structures on the • property where the work is to be performed and the location of any buildings or I structures on land of adjacent owners which are within 15 feet of the property or wh . ch may be affected by the proposed grading operations : Xej GI — I I Id/ ....eta( /-.4,.,", c� I� . e C1T'POF - II ,, 4■ CHANHASSEN , x:(7:, . 1 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 August 2` , 1988 Mr. and Mrs. Bob Pfankuch 1 100 Sandy Hook Road Chanhassen, MN 55317 - I and Mr. Steve Frost I 80 Sandy Hook Road Chanhassen, MN 55317 Dear Mr. and Mrs. Pfankuch and Mr. Frost: 1 Enclosed for your review is a letter from Mr. Paul Burke II reviewing his field investigation of your property adjacent to Lotus Lake. Mr. Burke is our contact from the Fish and Wildlife Service for consulting on wetland issues. Mr. Burke felt that wetlands were present on the subject sites 1 prior to being filled and sodded. We are sending Mr. Burke your information and pictures of what the wetland looked like prior to its alteration. We have asked him to comment on the filling of II the wetlands and if that was an acceptable way to try to remove purple loosestrife. 1 Since it has been confirmed that wetland characteristics existed ' prior to the alteration of your shoreline area, it will be necessary for you to receive a wetland alteration permit from the II city. The wetland alteration permit process is a public hearing and is reviewed by the ,Planning Commission and City Council. The city will wait to receive comments back from Mr. Burke on the I information you have submitted prior to initiating the wetland alteration permit. Once the information has been received from Mr. Burke, the city will contact you to advise you of when the next application deadline is and what information is necessary to II submit for the wetland alteration permit process. Should you have any questions, please feel free to call me. 1 Sincerely, IJo Ann Olsen Assistant City Planner cc: Barbara Dacy it 111 . 1 -7- . • �• 1 PRIM li- .‘,ttsT Os s United States Department of the Interior T °� - y.r:a "'. - FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE I am= IN ST. PAUL FIELD OFFICE (ES) • IN REPLY REFER To- 50 Park Square Court �PFO 400 Sibley Street St. Paul, Hinneeota 55101 ' 'luly 11, 1988 1 Ms. Joann Olsen I Assistant City Planner • City of Chanhassen P.O. Box 147 IChanhassen, Minnesota 55317 Dear Ms. Olsen IIn response to your June 30, 1988 request, Mr. Paul Burke of this office conducted our on-site review of four wetland sites within the City of Chanhassen. II I am enclosing herewith a copy of his information. report for your IIf you have any questions or require additional informa please contact us at your convenience. tion, ISincerely, ..--- ....j.....) Ro�ert i�elford `� I "'" Field Supervisor Attachment .. I I . 1 r --- -- .: 1988 ciTY :F CHANhASSEN • • . 0 I. 4184C41144 - - II 2iii9W Subject: Report of Field Investigation of four w etland -- sites within the City of Chanhassen, Carver I County, Minnesota -3 Field Investigator: Paul Burke IIF Ii Date: June 30, 1988 Ia fi ! Following my on-site review, I have determined that wetlands are present at each of the four subject sites, and each of ' the first three sites have been or will be impacted by site I , development. i 4 Site No. 1 111 This is a lake shore wetland behind the Colonial Grove Tennis and Beach Club, 80 Cheyenne Terrace, and 100 Cheyenne 7. Terrace. The affected area appears to have been recently I filled to an elevation of approximately 1 foot (vertical) above previous grade, sodded, and stabilized at the water' s I edge by a cobble wall. By examining the condition of the { shore line vegetation on each of the bounding property lots, t I found evidence of hydrological conditions that would i confirm my determination that the adjacent properties are palustrine emergent and palustrine scrub-shrub wetlands I ; (Circular 39 Type characteristics of 2, 3, and 6) . The ir evidence provided the positive identification of each of three parameters needed for wetland delineation. The soils II were a peaty-silt (histosols) , and all histosols are a hydric soil type. The vegetation canopy was dominated by red-ozier dogwood (Cornus stolonifera) , and ground cover Iconsisted primarily of reed canary grass (Phalaris Arundinacea) , broad-leaved cattail (Typha latifolia) , and purple loosestrife (Lythrum salicaria) . Each of the above species are classified as FACW"', or wetter designation, I hydrophytes. The water level at the time of the site visit was less than one vertical foot below the median elevation of the affected wetland. In consideration of recent drought I conditions, it is reasonable to assume the hydrology of the site ranges from saturated to permanently flooded. Barring any information to the contrary, we can assume that I prior to the recent shoreline enhancement project at this site, most, if not all, of the recently sodded area was a wetland with characteristics and values similar to those I found on the adjacent properties. The majority of these wetland values could be recovered if the fill were removed, and the area allowed to revegetate. 1 • II -M cam+,-r"+1/3 11 AIM! r � r . ' ���MT • Or!y TAXES ;,; �,. : United States Department of the Interior " FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE am= N • 44..ch 3 We ST. PAUL FIELD OFFICE (ES) s I IN REPLY REFER TO 50 Park Square Court 400 Sibley Street St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 SPFO ilAugust 31, 1988 II Ms. JoAnn Olsen I Assistant City Planner City of Chanhassen P.G. Box 147 IChanhassen, Minnesota 55317 Dear Ms. Olsen: I This responds to your August 24, 1988 letter regarding the unauthorized placement of fill in a wetland as a method for removing purple loosestrife. We have I reviewed your letter, along with the attached photographs of the affected site. Apparently, it is the position of the property owners that the purpose of II the wetland fill activity was to rid the affected area of purple loosestrife (Lythrum salicaria) . The following comments are provided for your consideration. II Purple loosestrife is a non-native plant species, a hardy perennial introduced from Europe. Being an exotic species, it has thrived in the absence of 1 • competition from other plant and animal species that are native to the European continent. Such an aggressive invader tends to crowd out other wetland species that are native to our North American I _ continent, which substantively reduces the fish and wildlife habitat values associated with the affected site. However, the other known wetland values, such as I floodwater retention, water quality enhancement, groundwater recharge, etc. , remain largely unaffected by purple loosestrife domination. It is for this I reason that we consider the destruction of a wetland to remove purple loosestrife to be an inappropriate remedy. I Attached is a small pamphlet from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources that proscribes both mechanical and chemical controls for this undesirable I species. We encourage the organization of neighboring property owners for the purpose of developing and II SEP ; 1988 I tA9 J♦ 11::://( 10/1 - AIP I 2 instituting a control program that can produce effective controls in three to five years with the limited use of herbicides and without the loss of other wetland values. Sincerely, I James L. Sm' h Acting Field Supervisor , Attachment cc: Howard Krosch, MN DNR, St. Paul, MN , I 1 1 1 I .I Date: February 10, 1989 To: File - Chanhassen From: P. Burke, SPFO ' - Subject: The Lotus Lake Wetlands Restoration I conducted a site visit with Steve Hanson (Chanhassen/planning) at the Lotus Lake shore line wetland site near the Colonial Grove Beach Club. The Colonial Grove property, and the neighboring Frost and Pfankuch properties, have had part or all of their wetland fringe backfilled and ' converted to turf. The historic wetland boundary was a line roughly parallel to the lake shore but approximately 50 feet landward. The subject wetlands were destroyed between the western boundary of the ' Pfankuch property to the eastern side of the Colonial Drove property, or just east of the club's dock. Such lacustrine and palustrine wetland resources play an important role in helping to maintain the physical , chemical , and biological integrity of Lotus Lake. The loss of littoral wetlands can dramatically alter the condition of lacustrine systems. ' I have recommended that the affected area have portions of the wetlands restored in an effort to recover some of the resource values lost to ' project implementation. I have generated a plan that includes the approximate size, shape, and location of wetlands that should be restored. The plan displays 5 areas, in dark-shaded triangles, that should be excavated to a depth of 12 to 16 inches below existing grade. ' These areas will act to trap, filter and improve the quality of surface runoff moving toward the lake. Revegetation will occur naturally if the area is left undisturbed by the landowners/managers. Once established, ' these restored wetlands should be protected from further disturbance, including any attempts to alter the vegetation, soils, or hydrology. Given the composition of vegetation on adjacent wetlands, it is likely ' that the area will recover with a mix of hydrophytes that will be dominated by cattails and purple loosestrife. Even a monotypic canopy of purple loosestrife is of greater ecological value to Lotus Lake than is the existing turf. The size of each of the five areas will vary slightly, but the lakeward base of each triangular area should be 15 feet in length and the landward height of each area should be 30 feet in length. cc: Steve Hanson, City of Chanhassen (Planning) Jerry Smith, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, St. Paul (Reg. Functions) ' FEB 151989 CLtt OF.C, H,SSEN I Mr. Steven Frost III Ami MP II Page Two Please contact this office within 30 days of receipt of this letter I to discuss the appropriate method and timing of restoration. If we do not receive a response within that time; we must initiate appropriate legal action necessary to uphold the law and protect the public's interest. II Please contact Pat Lynch of my staff to coordinate your restoration on II Sincerely, . � I Jo Linc Stine ' Re onal Hydrologist cc: JoAnn Olsen, City of Chanhassen Ken Harrell, USCOE II Bob Obermeyer, Barr Engineering Steve Walter, C.O. PL209:kap II 1 II 1 1 - r II 1 II CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION il - REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 15, 1989 IChairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7: 35 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Steve Emmings, Annette Ellson, Ladd Conrad, Brian IIBatzli , Jim Wildermuth and David Headla MEMBERS ABSENT: Tim Erhart IISTAFF PRESENT: Steve Hanson, Planning Director 1 Emmings moved, Batzli seconded to move the Organizational Items on the agenda to after the Approval of Minutes. All voted in favor and the motion carried. II PUBLIC HEARING: - ETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR TI-Al FILLING IN AND SODDING OF A WETLAND ON II 'PROPERTY ZONED RSF AND LOCATED T 100 AND 80 SANDY HOOK ROAD, BOB PFANKUCH AND STEVE FROST, APPLICANTS . IPublic Present: Name Address IIMr. and Mrs. Bob Pfankuck 100 Sandy Hook Road Mr. and Mrs. Steve Frost 80 Sandy Hook Road Cindy Gilman President, Lotus Lake Homeowners Assn. I • Thomas Gilman 6613 Horseshoe Curve Lane Barbara Montgomery 7017 Dakota Avenue Susan Conrad 6625 Horseshoe Curve Lane I Steve Hanson presented the staff report. IConrad: Just one comment. Our wetland ordinance is more restrictive than the DNR's and our wetland ordinance specifically talks about areas above the ordinary high water mark. Basically what staff is recommending in 1 this report is saying that the areas that are sanctioned by other governmental bodies will get some feedback. I'm curious what we're talking about in terms of the property that's above the ordinary high I - water mark which our ordinance governs. Hanson: The area above the ordinary high water mark is. . .Fish and Wildlife talked about. .i.; 1 Conrad: So in the red? ' Hanson: Yes. Conrad: And then in the blue? r - - 5 I 1 } Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 2 II Hanson: The blue is actually the edge of the shoreline. In the alternative, we looked at establishing. . . In talking with Fish and Wildlife, they thought that was probably going a little too far. Conrad: Okay, we will open it up for public comments. What I would like to do is have the applicants for the permit speak to us first. Either of the applicants in relation to the staff report or anything else, if you would like. Mrs. Pfankuch: First of all , I'm a little unclear about the recommendation. Is this. . .? Hanson: No. That's just representative. In his memo, I believe he 1 stated a size in the last paragraph that they should be 15 feet in length and come back inland 30 feet. Mrs. Pfankuch: And what is the blue line? Hanson: That's just delineating where the edge of the water is now. Mrs. Pfankuch: So they' re asking for a triangle between our property. One between our property and the Monroe' s property and one between our property and. . . Hanson: Right. Mrs. Pfankuch: Well , all of the information is in the file but what we were attempting to do is get rid of the loosestrife. We called a contractor and he came down and started to do the excavating and the Village came and looked at it and told us to proceed. We certainly want to cooperate with the DNR and whoever. We don' t want to cause a problem. I guess we're not totally convinced that loosestrife is less of a problem than that sod. We didn' t have cattails. We had loosestrife totally. 7 feet tall. You couldn' t see anything but loosestrife. As far as wildlife, now we've got geese living on the shore. In fact, they're a nuisance. Our dock is slippery from the geese so as far as wildlife, they I certainly like it better now. That isn' t to say that we we don' t want to cooperate, we do but I guess we' re a little unclear about exactly what we'll accomplish by tearing up however much we're talking about here. , Conrad: I think, and I don't know if I can be a spokesperson for that because I haven' t seen the plan and I'm not an expert in the area but we do have a wetland ordinance and we've been pretty restrictive on a lot of your neighbors. Having built boardwalks where they would like to put docks. They had different opinions of what they'd like to do but we enforce the ordinance because the runoff, especially through your area is significant. With the wetland behind your house and Herb Bloomberg's wetland being destroyed, which is probably one of the best wetlands in town, that whole area is real susceptible to, the water quality is really going to take a major hit every time we destroy a little bit of wetland . But I don't know that that's an issue. It just happens that that particular problem is in your area. But also, there is a lot of water that's going into the lake and we, as a community, have been trying to I Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 3 prevent that kind of runoff. Whether it be wetlands that are under our ' control or wetlands that are under DNR control or somebody elses. It' s been a city policy to be real stringent on what we do. Mrs. Pfankuch: And we don't disagree with your having a policy. Certainly we don't want to cause a problem. The loosestrife, our understanding when we started the project, was that the loosestrife was a ' major problem. It certainly was a noxious thing on our shore. We had these big clumps of yuk and the tires would float in and stick in it and it was a real mess. It' s hard for me to be convinced that loosestrife is better. You were talking about the wetlands, where? Behind our ' property? You mean up where they've dug out the cattails and build the houses? I Conrad: Yes. And the only reason that happened is because they got the permit to do that many, many years ago. They had a subdivision that superceded our ordinance. That's probably one of the best functioning I wetlands in the city. It's beautiful but it's being buried right now. It's not your problem and it doesn' t really, it may end up to be a little bit of your problem but that has nothing to do on this particular one. I Mrs. Pfankuch: We have the sewers also, and I 'm sure you're aware of that. We have two sewers on our property. One between ours and Frost' s property where the water runs down and then out a culvert. Now the ' loosestrife had totally filled that culvert. That was not draining into the lake. It was backing up and doing whatever because the loosestrife had clogged the opening of that outlet. That stuff, I don't know what you know about it but that stuff is like, like from outerspace. It just takes I over. But we' re certainly not in disagreement with talking to the DNR and see what it is that they' re proposing. We don' t want to be disagreeable here but we are concerned about the lake and certainly about ecology but ' that loosestrife is awful. Conrad: Thanks for your comments. IICindy Gilman: I live on Horseshoe Curve. I am currently the President of Lotus Lake Association. I guess a couple of the things that I was concerned about is that you said that the loosestrife is a problem and I that it needs to be handled. There are chemical treatments to handle the loosestrife so that the wetlands can become healthy again and help be restored instead of clearcutting and filling in and then there would be no I chance of any type of a natural filter to help the lake along there. I also question, I guess the way it was done. The contractor that did it, I assume most contractors know that there are laws that they have to follow. I had someone come in to look at part of my lakeshore to help redo it I because it was falling apart and most contractors are aware that they need to clear things through the DNR. That there are things that are properly done and things that are not properly done on a lakeshore. Anyway, so I I question the contractor. The contractor that filled it in. I guess it bothers me that it was gone ahead and done and then after the fact, they are looking to get the permit now instead of before. It seems that there was an awareness there. There was an awareness of the purple loosestrife and you knew that was a problem and why you didn' t seek help or talk to • 1 Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 4 counsel or talk to people to find out what you could do about the I/ loosestrife and what was legal and what was not. I guess that's it . Thank you. Thomas Gilman: I'm also from Horseshoe Curve and I guess my problem with this is that this has been done previously where people have come in. They've altered their land. I don' t think these people just fell off a cabbage truck and I think that they know that you need a permit for this type of thing. I think that they decided to step ahead of the law. Have the work done figuring it would be easier to come and get a permit afterwards. I think they should be required to return it to it' s natural condition and then once that's done, then come in and make this presentation because this is an afterfact. I don' t think that the lake I was taken into consideration. I think that the loosestrife is being used as kind of a scapegoat. Conrad: Two quick comments. What are the contractor' s responsibilities 1 Steve when they start excavating around a lake? What do they have to do? Do they need a building permit? Wildermuth: Do we require an excavating permit of dirt contractors? Hanson: Yes. ' Wildermuth: So he didn' t come in and apply for one? Hanson: I found an excavating permit in the file. I don' t know the history behind when it was done. It could have been done after they had started but I 'm not sure if that's true or not. Conrad: Would you make sure that City Council knows whether it was true or not by the time this gets to them. Wildermuth: It sounds like the contractor ought to be. . . 1 Conrad: I think so. The applicant made some comment about staff giving the permission to go ahead and maybe that was the permit but I 'm curious about staff saying go ahead. • Mrs. Pfankuch: Do you have a copy of the permit? A copy was sent to you. II Hanson: I think it's the last page in your packet. Wildermuth: The question is, did that predate the work or postdate it? The actual work. _ Mrs. Pfankuch: It did not postdate. . . I Conrad: Steve, can I assume that when it says paid, 23918 that that means we gave, the applicant gave money which basically says we gave permission? Is that what it takes? I 11 I Planning Commission Meeting .February 15, 1989 - Page 5 I Hanson: Well , that 's where I 'm a little confused because normally on a permit there's someone who has signed off on it. I 've only got his front sheet and I don' t know if there's something signed on the back sheet or Inot. Conrad: I think by the time this goes to City Council, you should know a little bit more and maybe Mr. Ashworth can fill us in a little bit on Ithat. Any other comments? Barbara Montgomery: My name is Barbara Montgomery and I live on Dakota ' Avenue about a block above where this development is. I guess I would just like to say, I've lived there a very long time. My husband and I moved in in 1960 and I feel very protective of the area. Very protective of the lake. I loved it dearly and I 've watched and watched I and watched as all of the growth has taken place. Somehow I just have the feeling that perhaps some of the people who are moving in are not enough aware of the importance of keeping the lake clean and what's going to ' happen. Who wants to live around a dead lake full of dead fish? It does happen. It's happening to lots of the lakes. I 'd just like to make a plea maybe for more public understanding. Maybe for more respect. Maybe I for tougher policing of the ordinance. I guess that' s all I have to say but I really feel very strongly about the area and I think maybe that all of you do or you wouldn' t be out here. ' Headla moved, Batzli seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. IIHeadla: Mrs. Pfankuch, you indicated that the, I don't know what your exact words were. You got the go ahead from the Village. What exactly II were you referring to? You got the go ahead from the Village. Mrs. Pfankuch: It's in the permit. Have you seen the permit? May I show you the permit? ' Headla: I'm not sure if I 'm looking at the same thing you are. I Mrs. Pfankuch: Our contractor, they stopped the work and they came down and looked at it and they issued this permit. My understanding is that the permit. I Headla: Okay, it's the same thing. So you interpretted that as the go ahead? Mrs. Pfankuch: Yes. They didn' t say stop. Headla: You indicated here the reason you were doing it is to improve lot to lake. I see no mention on loosestrife at all but yet that tends to be Ithe dominant reason now. Mrs. Pfankuch: It's always been the reason. Headla: I didn' t see it on the application. • I } I Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 6 Mrs. Pfankuch: I didn' t do the application so I don' t know but we had an II early letter, in fact I think it predates that application, discussing the loosestrife. I don' t know about the chronology. I 've got some other information here. Headla: That's fine. I guess I look at this the same way I started out the first of the year. I think we should not go for a lot of conditions on a permit. I think we' re loading down the staff. I see no reason why this even came before us until those 3 conditions that the staff recommended to approve, I see no reason at all why those conditions shouldn't be met before the Planning Commission even sees that. At the best, I think we ought to table it until they do get approval. I don't know what the DNR is going to approve. Our conditions are a little more restrictive and I 'd like to see that before I 'd even consider approving this. That's all I have. Wildermuth: I'm trying to find what our ordinance is. It should be under I the boats and waterways section right? Hanson: It's under the wetlands section. Wildermuth: I see it. How and in what manner are we more restrictive than the DNR in terms of. . .structure? Hanson: I guess I 'm not necessarily sure that we're more restrictive. I think we have a more detailed review and we require them to do a wetland alteration permit and when you do that , that' s when you have the flexibility to allow what kind of alteration you do. Normally I think in this situation, if they had come in, I doubt you would have looked at an alteration other than allowing them to have a boardwalk out to the dock. 11 I think that would be your normal approach to this situation, if it was undisturbed. Wildermuth: If that's the case, if that were the approach that we would have taken initially, where a wetland alteration permit would not really have been an issue, or according to the ordinance structure would have recommended a boardwalk, I think that their shoreline should be restored to it's original state and if a boardwalk is desired by the property owners, then I think that would be appropriate. I 'm surprised that Paul Burke in his original letter where he used some fairly strong language saying that the wetland alteration permit should definitely not be granted, would come back and make what appears to be a relatively token requirement of these 15 by 30 triangles. Right across from that property was the Dolce property or adjacent to that and we. . . I Conrad: We didn't let them do anything. Wildermuth: The Planning Commission did not allow anything to be done 1 there. The City Council did not allow anything to be done there. I think if we go along with Paul ' s latest recommendation, we send a message to lakeshore owners that they can perform this work. They can alter the wetland and come in for a permit after the fact and it's alright. I 11 Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 7 I further think that it ought to be very difficult for this contractor to get an excavating permit in the City of Chanhassen in the future. That' s all I have. Batzli : I guess I 'd like to feel the way Jim does to some extent. I look at that permit that was issued, which we don't really have all the facts on it but if I was a landowner and my contractor went and brought me back a permit like that, I 'd go ahead and do it. For us to say now, that well you shouldn' t have done it and we don' t know under what circumstances we issued a permit, I think is a little bit critical on our part so I guess I'm not in a position to say they should or shouldn' t have been able to do it and I 'm not going to cast stones at this point because I think to some extent they may have depended on that permit and I'm not going to, I think there's been kind of some allegations that they acted in bad faith and I 'm not willing to take that step right now. Wildermuth: But there's no indication the permit was granted. You pay the fee when you file the permit. From this we can' t tell anything . Batzli: I know and I can' t tell anything and that's why I 'm trying not to cast stones one way or another. But what I guess I 'd like to see happen I is I would prefer at this point, without knowing additional facts, we' re making a judgment when we' re in a position where we don' t know all the facts. I assume that we've got these triangles here because there' s culverts running between the property lines? Or no? Where are the culverts located? Bob Pfankuch: Not in all cases. IMrs. Pfankuch: There' s one culvert between our property and the Frosts. I Batzli: Okay. I would assume that this report was generated on where the main runoff occurs between the properties and I 'd like to think that Burke is the expert and I 'd be, at this point, without knowing other facts, say Igo ahead and do it his way. Conrad: Did the same contractor do the work on Colonial Grove? IHanson: I assume so. I don't know that for a fact. Wildermuth: I don' t think so. Al Smith was the contractor on the Colonial Grove job. Hanson: On the entire subdivision, is that what you're talking about? Conrad: No. That's sort of before your time. I shouldn't have addressed it to you. IWildermuth: This one looks like Harlan Johnson. Something Johnson. Conrad: Didn't we have some problems with Colonial Grove dumping, well, that's another story. • Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 10 is loosestrife. That's the only thing that comes back. Would you like to I pour Rodeo into Lotus Lake? Because the weed grows in the water, not in the dirt. That' s the suggestion to take care of loosestrife. It is a noxious weed and it is the responsibility of property owners to remove it. I In fact, the State has offered funds to help the property owners remove it. We didn't ask for that. We didn't throw in 6 feet of fill like was done in cattail swamp on TH 101. I put in 6 inches of dirt only to level it. That was the only purpose of the fill was to level it so it could be sodded so it could be managed. Yet, the pictures, the colored pictures that were presented, shows that the loosestrife is continuing to grow up through the sod . I mean I didn' t bury it to the point where I killed it. I thought I did or I thought I would but at least I can mow it and keep it down. This stuff grows to 7 feet. If anybody' s been out to the Old Log Theater and looked around the grounds out there, you can see that that property has literally been taken over and destroyed by purple loosestrife. That is a very real hazard. It's a hazard to Lotus Lake. It doesn' t do anything- to the wildlife, the property owners, the lake users and it prevents me from cleaning up the garbage that rolls down the storm sewer from the street. Dead animals. I mean you name it, it's there. If you think that it's great for Lotus Lake, God help all of us. End of discussion. Any other questions? Conrad: Did that answer your question? Emmings: No. My question was whether or not you were aware before you hired this contractor to do work there that the work you were proposing to do might be subject to DNR regulations, City regulations or regulation by any other governmental entity? Bob Pfankuch: Steve, I started out by saying that I 'm not an attorney. I'm not familiar with the DNR. I 'm not familiar with Chanhassen' s regulations regarding wetlands. I hired a contractor who does work on the lake. Does work on Lake Minnetonka and on Lotus Lake a fair amount. He probably never will again after this and with or without cause, that's for you to decide. The point is, I hired a lakeshore contractor who does a lot of work for governments around Lake Minnetonka. The natural assumption is that this person knows what he's doing. If you need a permit, if you need a wetlands alteration permit, a building permit, I mean when you hire a contractor you expect that person to be able to do those things. That's a normal expectation and I carry the responsibility. I accept that but, isn' t that normal to expect that? Emmings: I guess it just doesn' t answer my question. Bob Pfankuch: The question is no, I was not aware that anything was required on Lotus Lake but I was aware that if it were required, it would be recognized by a contractor who does work on a lake in Minnesota in the Twin Cities area, Lake Minnetonka. Emmings: Is that true for the Frosts as well . That you were not aware that this would be regulated by any government at the time? 1 1 - } Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 11 1 Steve Frost : The contractor came down and he got a permit and I assumed that everything was okay. He got the permit. That was our understanding. Emmings: So again, then you're telling us too that prior to the time the 1 work was begun, and I 'm not talking about the time of the permit. Prior to the time the work was begun, you were not aware that there were any governmental entity that might be regulating what it was you were going to 1 do to your shoreline there? Mrs. Pfankuch: We came and talked to Barbara before. I don' t know, a ' year before and we said we've got this loosestrife all over the shore. What can we do? And she said, well we're not sure what to do about it. That's what she said. She said, we' re not sure what to do with it. If you can get rid of it, get rid of it. That's what she told us exactly. 1 We didn't do anything until later when we decided to call Harlan because we didn't know what to do. She certainly didn' t say to us, you dasten touch the loosestrife because it has all these valuable properties and I resent the implications that we're trying to do something underhanded. We're concerned about ecology also. Bob Pfankuch: I ' ll do nothing to the lakeshore, and you come down in ' August and look at it. You' re going to not be happy. It's like a cesspool. Mrs. Pfankuch: It was just full of junk. Emmings: Mr. Frost didn' t answer my question. Steve Frost: I left it with the contractor to do what he knew he needed to do to get permits and anything that he had to do, that's your job. I 'm hiring you to do that. ,1 Emmings: And did you say that to him before he started his work? That if there were any necessary permits, he' ll get them or did you just assume Ihe'd take care of it? Was it discussed at all with him? Steve Frost: . . .he would do that. That was part of his job. When I hired him, he's supposed to do that. IIEmmings: Did you get an estimate from him? Steve Frost: Yes. Emmings: Was it written? Steve Frost: I think it was yes. Emmings: Were there any items on there for permits or anything like IIthat? Steve Frost: All he gave us was a total of the job I think. 11 I Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 12 1 Emmings: The application for the excavating permit, I don' t know, do you II get an excavating permit when you fill something in as opposed to removing? Hanson: Yes, you would. In both cases. Emmings: The excavating permit is real vague. It's hard to know what they're going to do but I think there was a screw-up in our, it looks to me like there was a screw-up in whoever might have issued this excavating permit because it clearly included a wetland. There should have been a wetland alteration permit which can only come from the City Council . , Something got screwed up here. Who knows what but maybe you can find out more about it between now and the City Council, like Ladd suggested. The other thing, I wondered why we've got another property involved here. This Colonial Grove property and their property is affected by this plan of Fish and Wildlife to do some restoration here too but they're not in front of us for a permit. Hanson: I became aware of that officially when Paul and I went down and looked at the property to see that that area had been altered too. I assume that it was done at the same time but I don' t know that it was or , not. Bob Pfankuch: It was. I Emmings: It was all done at the same time by the same contractor? Bob Pfankuch: Yes. And it was mentioned in one of the complaints from the City in an earlier letter and then subsequently dropped for no stated reason other than the fact that probably 150 people belong to that Association. ' Emmings: Just comment wise, first of all, I have no doubt that the Pfankuchs and the Frosts did something that they thought was an 11 improvement to their property and they don' t have any desire to hurt the lake. I'm not even remotely suspicious of their motivation but the problem we have with doing nothing here is that it makes it, like Jim said, it becomes the smart thing to do to be dumb. To be unaware of regulations that are there to protect the lake. If I go out and do the work, I get my hand slapped and maybe I have to sit and listen to people talk nasty about me but I wind up basically with what I wanted. Whereas if I go and apply to the City for a permit to do the same work, I 'm going to be denied. So that really puts a premium on being a cowboy and that sure is not what we want to see. On the other hand, I don't think it will serve any purpose .at all to punish these folks by making them return that 50 feet to what it was if the people who are supposed to understand this thing from a technical point of view, like Burke, think that something can be done to get some value to the wetland back there such as this plan. Whether this is a reasonable plan or not, I have no way of knowing but I would trust that he does so I guess I 'd be inclined to go along with the staff recommendation as a way to get the matter resolved. And I guess I 'd 11 say to the Frosts and the Pfankuchs too, that we really see a lot more of this than we want to. We' re constantly seeing people coming in here • I I/ Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 13 ' asking for wetland alteration permits after they've altered the wetlands ' and it's real irritating to us. You' re presumed to know what city ordinances are and Mr. Pfankuch is absolutely right when he say it' s his responsibility. It is. So I guess I 'd go along with the staff recommendation but the only change that I 'd make is on number 3. If this is approved, that the applicants provide a schedule and I 'd just insert the words, acceptable to the City Staff, for completing restoration. Just I so the schedule is a reasonable one. I guess I think that whatever DNR, the hoops that DNR and Fish and Wildlife make them jump through I guess would be punishment, if that's what it is, enough as far as I 'm concerned. That' s all I have. ' Wildermuth: Just for a point of clarification. Did we actually issue a wetland, or I mean did we actually issue the excavating permit to this contractor? Hanson: That' s where -I 'm unclear whether it was or not. The only documentation I 've come across is what was in the packet. Wildermuth: Mr . Pfankuch said that the contractor came back and said that everything 's alright. He applied, made the application. Mrs. Pfankuch: They came down with the contractor and looked at the property. The City did. They were down there walking around with Harlan Johnson. Now we assumed that if they came down and they gave him this permit, we had no reason to believe that. . . Wildermuth: It sounds like we've got an internal problem. Headla: We don't know what the story is. I Wildermuth: I 'm surprised that this excavating contractor with his experience and working in wetlands and Minnesota, wouldn't know that he had to come in for a permit up front. But even after he did come in for the permit, if he did get a permit, an approved permit, apparently the City didn' t raise any objection. II Emmings: He may be savy enough to know that it does pay to be a cowboy. Headla: There are very successful men in our company who's motto was, you're better off going ahead and do what you want to do and get it done, beg forgiveness and get your hand slapped than get prior approval. Boy, he got a lot of stuff done. I see the same thing here. Emmings: I 've given that as advice to clients because it does work. I ' don' t know what you do as a City to stop it but here we had the perfect opportunity to stop it. We discovered it was going on and stopped it and then let it continue. That's our fault. That' s the City's fault, it Iseems to me. Mrs. Pfankuch: We heard a lot of talk about wetlands after the fact also. II We didn' t even know this was a wetland. We tried to mow it. We'd go down there, it wasn't a swamp. It was just clumps of loosestrife growing. Now I k 1 Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 14 1 we realize it's an exotic wetland but. . . , Conrad: I hate to be an educater and I don' t like doing that in this situation but I think the things that you see being a litter in the lake are minor compared to what a wetland does. Again, I 'm not going to bore you with details here but a wetland is really taking the chemicals out of the stuff running into the lake. The tires and some of the stuff that you see, that's fine and it's disgusting and we agree. Bob Pfankuch: How about the Rodeo sprayed into the lake? Conrad: Rodeo would not be acceptable in my mind but purple loosestrife is better than destroying all kinds of filtration. Grass is not a filtration system. It doesn' t do the job. Wetlands, the thing with purple loosestrife is it chokes out the cattails and now the cattails don' t have a chance to grow. So if you showed me how you are restoring it so the cattails could grow, I could understand it but you haven't done it. The grass is not a filtration. I Mrs. Pfankuch: I don't know if that can be. Conrad : I don' t know that it can be done either but what you're telling me is not a solution to the problem. Bob Pfankuch: You need to come down and look at it. ' Conrad: I see it fairly frequently and I 'd be happy to. Again, I 'm not trying to be an educater , well I am. I am. ' Susan Conrad: I just want to make a comment about the education. I don't know how long you've lived on Lotus Lake but every year, at least once a 11 year, a newsletter goes to every homeowner on the lake educating about the value of wetlands. Also, in the newspaper, the Lotus Lake Association has published articles about wetland value and about the control purple loosestrife and the value of loosestrife so we have not only, as an Association, sent out letters but we have held meetings and talked and educated and we have done that for at least 5 years. So not being aware of wetlands and not having them identified, unless you just moved onto the lake. Wetland identification has been available to all of us and sent to all of us on Lotus Lake and all of the city but the Lotus Lake Homeowners Association has gotten that information to their homeowners. And as far, I have just one more point, as far as the DNR recommending taking the wetland back to it's original state. My experience, which most of you know has been years with the DNR, has been that their jurisdiction ends at the high water mark so they will not even venture to recommend anything beyond that. I would ask the Planning Commission to invite the Corps of Engineers in to tell you what the value is beyond that because they are the only agency I 've run across that can give you a total picture and doesn't get hung up in jurisdictions. They do have a jurisdiction ending but they are a recommending body rather than permitting in many cases. Fish and Wildlife does that even better so they can tell you the whole picture and I 'm sure that's why the DNR is saying to renovate a portion of II it. They can only talk to the portion that they're responsible for. I Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 15 II Conrad: I want to make a few comments without being redundant for other comments. One, it looks like there was an internal problem and I really would like, I really do need staff to tell us what happened. The comments 1 from the applicants are valid. If we don' t catch it, if our staff doesn' t look at the documents , these are charted wetlands. It's not that they' re not charted. They are so it looks like we screwed up and I need staff to review that. And staff to review it to tell us how they're going to ' prevent that. I just doesn't make sense to me. Secondly, I 'm not sure whether the applicants knew what they were doing or not and I 'm real concerned with the contractor and I guess we should, I 'd also like to have staff tell us what they would recommend that we do to the contractor who was doing this. Anybody who is in the area knows that Chanhassen is a tough ordinance, period. And we do that for a purpose because we have a ' lot of lakes and we have a lot of runoff and a lot of building. Contractors should know so I guess Steve, I'd like to have staff review to us what we should do w-ith a contractor's that more than likely knows what he's doing. Third , I agree. I don' t think we need to restore the wetland i totally. We can probably do with what Mr. Burke is recommending here and get some value out of it and I would hope that we could agree. I think my biggest concern is we really have been strict with your neighbors and your II neighbors care. They care a whole lot. I think we don't want to set an example, for whatever reasons, we just don' t want to set an example that it can be done. We want to set an example that people still care about I this and I think you do. I guess I ' ll take Mr. Burke' s recommendation as being valid and acceptable. On the other hand, I 'm not convinced Steve that we've really looked at it from our ordinance standpoint. Again, it 's II an easy way of looking at this thing and saying, well, this other agency who controls everything above the high water mark says this but I want you to be real confident that our ordinance, that we haven't set an example for another situation. If this is fine, this takes care of the problem, I'm okay with that. If what Mr. Burke says is going to filter the runoff '. that's coming down between the houses and get the maximum value, that' s okay with me but I want staff to tall us and if you need help from the Corps of Engineers or whoever, I think we'll ask them that. The question I in my mind is whether we issue the permit. I 'm really hung up and the really philosophic thing is that a wetland alteration permit which has been already, the wetland's been filled in. We issue a permit to restore it. I don' t know. I don' t know how to deal with that one. Those are my comments. I 'd take a motion from somebody. II Emmings: I'm going to move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the Wetland Alteration Permit #88-13 subject to the conditions • that are set forth in the staff report with the addition that I mentioned in number 3 where the applicants provide a schedule acceptable to the City IStaff for completing restoration. Batzli: I 'll second it. What do we do with Colonial Grove? IIConrad: That' s another comment. I think they should be in here. Emmings: Well, we've got people here who've made an application. I think that' s not part of this. I time somehow we've got to tell them they've • } i Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 16 1 got to come in and apply for a wetland alteration permit too. 1 Thomas Gilman: And they can get their hand slapped too. Emmings: Well , yes. I guess it's not my job to beat people up when they 1 screw up. Especially when the City seems to have screwed up at the same time. , Conrad: I think it is a separate issue but I think we do want to. Emmings moved, Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Wetland Alteration Permit #88-13 subject to the following conditions: , 1. Prior to City Council consideration, the applicants agree to mitigation plans and requirements of Minnesota Department of Natural Resources and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. 2. Applicants receive permits from Minnesota DNR. 3. Applicants provide a schedule acceptable to the City Staff for completing restoration. Emmings, Wildermuth and Batzli voted in favor of the motion. Elison, , Headla, and Conrad voted in opposition to the motion and the motion failed with a tie vote of 3 to 3. Elison: I move the Planning Commission recommend denial of the Wetland Alteration Permit #88-13. , Batzli: I' ll second it for discussion purposes. What good is that going to do? Wildermuth: That's just the converse of what we just voted on. Elison: I want it to go forward to the City Council with something but I want them to hash out the details. Like you said, it will be on record that they got the okay to do it. I don't want that to be there. Conrad: But the main reason I voted against Steve' s motion is because he ' talked about, we're really reacting to what the DNR said and I don't know that we're reacting to what our ordinance says. Wildermuth: Our ordinance, I wasn' t too proud of our ordinance when I just read it. Emmings: My comment there Ladd would be. Our ordinance tells us what to do when somebody comes in and applies for the permit prior to doing the work. We got a problem with our ordinance maybe when people come in and say, I 've already done the work and now I 'm here to get the permit. Maybe there should be a provision in there. I 'm not even clear why they applied I Planning Commission Meeting . February 15, 1989 - Page 17 11 for a permit. Conrad : Because the staff has been asking them to. ' Emmings: But what if they just said, no, thank you? Conrad: Then we'd have to legally take care of that. ' Emmings: That got them in front of us. Their application got them in front of us and then I guess , I don' t know. I don' t think our ordinance ' tells us, gives us much guidance in this case. Conrad: It doesn' t. IIHeadla: Does the ordinance give you any guidance if they don' t follow it? Or the best we could help for is that, I think Jim pointed out that you judge it from how would you treat other people if they came in with the I permit? IF it's a boardwalk, the worse scenario for these people would be then that they'd have to go back to that and I don' t believe in penalizing them like that. But to me that would be one way that does it. ' Emmings: I suppose the other thing you can do here too, if you want to send a real clear message, the City Council I guess could ask, what they II have done there may well be a criminal offense under the ordinance and they could ask the City Attorney to review it for prosecution. That would certainly get people' s attention. But again, that' s not our function here. IIConrad : We should be doing what is best, what the ordinance intends and that doesn't set a precedent for future situations. That's what I want to accomplish. Emmings: I agree and it seems to me, if they come in and they've got a wetland there and they say we want to modify it, then we look at our 1 ordinance and we say no, because we've done that before right next to them. We say, no you can' t do that. You' re going to just have to live with your loosestrife and put out a boardwalk and that's that. IIWildermuth: But the contractor came in and got a permit approved. Ellson: But it wasn' t signed. ' Wildermuth: But if you read this letter from Barbara real carefully, towards the back of your packet. Read this letter from Barbara real ' carefully. Your contractor, Mr. Johnson, promptly complied with our requests to submit plans and the needed information for issuance of a grading permit. it implies that the grading permit was granted because II she goes on to say, however, it has come to our attention that the area in which you conducted the grading may have contained wetland vegetation. So apparently, when whoever it was from the City went down there with the contractor to look at this thing, somebody from the City agreed to the IIpermit. The implication is that the permit was granted and Mr. Pfankuch said that he had a permit. So you can' t fault the property owner. 1 Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 18 1 Emmings: We've got a wetland, we want to alter it. We say no. I think they're coming in at a point where, what's there? They've got an altered wetland. They've removed the wetland or destroyed it and we've got to say, what are we going to do now? Given that as the baseline, it all depends on what you want to pick as a baseline. They're coming in and saying, here's what we've got now and we've got a plan here, again, I have no way of judging it's efficacy as restoring wherever the properties are, the wetland you want to keep, but at least there's somebody here who says II that this will do the job to get it back to at least some sort of reasonable. .. Wildermuth: There's no question in my mind how I'd vote if somebody were II coming in for a permit and no work had been done. No question at all . But I think there's an event here that took place that it's not a black and white issue. Emmings: And I think we've got dirty hands. Batzli: Well I 'm glad the two people that voted for the motion are in agreement now. Emmings: You voted for it too. , Batzli : Yes, but I already agreed with you two. ' Wildermuth: Yes, but I didn' t agree with you to begin with. Conrad: Dave, your disagreement stems from what? How is somebody going to swing your vote? Headla: I don' t believe that it should be denied. I really believe it should be tabled until we find out what in the world did we really tell these people. I think staff can tell us . I want to see what the DNR has to say. I have no idea what they're going to say or the other appropriate parties. Then I think the people ought to be able to look at that and then whatever is recommended, then come in with a schedule. Then we can act on it. We've got something documented. Until that, I don' t think we ought to touch it. ' Conrad: This is under discussion of a motion for denial right? Okay. That's not bad Dave. If we don't know. We can vote on it, we can kill it or she can withdraw it if she so chooses but I think you're absolutely right. We don't know what staff did. Steve hasn' t done a good job of researching the staff on this one and I think even whether, he can do it for City Council or he can do it for us. We might as well hear what it ' is. We've got the ordinance and we can help that ordinance. We can help improve it if we understand how it doesn't get enforced. It's probably good that he bring back a scenario of how this happened. But I also II think I 'd like, other comments that you said. I 'd like staff, things that come in at the last second just bothers me. Staff hasn' t reviewed this and reviewed it to see how our ordinance pertains, which is my problem. My biggest problem. It's coming in today and staff hasn' t told me how our ' ordinance gets impacted by the recommendation so I guess there's some 1 Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 19 validity for tabling it other than the fact that we have to bring it back ' in. That's a real pain. I hate to do that to anybody but. . . Bob Pfankuch: I asked for you to table it for 6 months. ' Conrad: Well , 6 months of water going in, if it's bad water, is robabl P Y not worth the risk but I think. . . ' Bob Pfankuch: . . .water that goes into that lake? Conrad : A whole bunch of bad water goes into the lake and we probably spend more of our lives up here looking at the bad water than we care to think about . ' Bob Pfankuch: May I ask that the City sewer from the street be removed? Not be allowed to drain into it. Wildermuth: I guess if it's any comfort, in a new subdivision that wouldn't happen because there would have to be some kind of a ponding area but I don' t think you want a ponding area in your backyard before it goes into the lake do you? ' Batzli : I think the City might want to look into a catch basin or a screen or some sort of trap if that's in fact what's draining into the ' lake at that point from a storm sewer . Conrad: Where is all the Colonial Grove, being that that wetland is being used up by a contractor , where is that water going Steve? Is it coming between? Hanson: I have no idea. Conrad : Can you find that out because that just fascinates me. Most of that's coming in from Eden Prairie. Most of that water is coming from ' under TH 101 going into the wetland. I'm just real curious if it's going to the subdivision to the north. Wildermuth: It's going into all the basements around it. IConrad: But anyway, Annette, you've got a motion. IEllson: I withdraw the motion. Conrad: Do you want to or we can vote on it? IIEllson: No, I 'd rather withdraw it and Dave, why don' t you do yours. Conrad: Do you want to withdraw your second Brian? ' Batzli : Sure. IHeadla: I would like to make a motion that we table this. I 'd like to get better definition of what direction the Village really gave these I Planning Commission Meeting February 15, 1989 - Page 20 - II people. If we really gave them the wrong direction, I think we've got to II look at it a lot different and maybe the City has to suffer the consequence. I 'd like to understand, see what the DNR is going to recommend and then have our applicans look at it and submit some type of II schedule and I think at that time the Colonial Grove people should be part of this. Wildermuth: Second . I Headla moved , Wildermuth seconded to table action on Wetland Alteration Permit #88-13 so staff can research what happened at the City level. To find out what DNR is going to recommend and then that the applicants submit a schedule, which the Colonial Grove people should be included with. All voted in favor of the motion to table and the motion carried . Conrad: Steve, when do you think this will come back? Any idea? A couple of weeks? Hanson: I doubt it. I don' t believe I ' ll have a response from DNR in that period of time first of all. Secondly, I 'm not sure what type of problems I 'm run into trying to research it because I think I 'm going to have to do some of that by phone calls with previous staff because I don' t believe there's anything in the file. , REQUEST FOR SITE PLAN APPROVAL FOR PARKING AND SITE IMPROVEMENTS, ON II PROPERTY ZONED CBD, CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT AND LOCATED JUST EAST OF 480 WEST 78TH STREET, CHANHASSEN PROFESSIONAL BUIDLING - PHASE I, ARVID ELNESS ARCHITECTS, INC. ' Steve Hanson presented the staff report. Conrad: Brad, what do you think? ' Brad Johnson: We've given them some modifications that are minor, from our point of view. You've got to remember, this is being designed by the II City for us. That's why he does the presentation. Conrad: You can be critical now. Brad Johnson: I think it will work fine. He' s gotten our comments. It looks like most of them have been put in there. Like I said, it's pretty close to what we were requiring. In fact, the traffic guys have to look at it. .. You should note that we have taken 15 feet off the back of the south side of the apartment building and put it into the parking lot. That has been done as part of your previous approval of the site plan for the apartment building . That's why this original sidewalk had wound around here. It was getting too close to the rooms. You know, for a public walk right next to somebody' s bedroom is not a good idea so it was pulled over to the right. We' re really excited about this whole project because it just has a real nice look to it. The way it all comes I T %_�n�SnTATE OF /� 1 DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES PHONE NO. 296-7523 METRO REGION DIVISION OF WATERS 1200 WARNER RD. , ST. PAUL, MN. 55106 FILE NO 1 February 2, 1989 IIMr. Stephen Hanson, Planning Director City of Chanhassen g 1 690 Coulter Drive, P.O. Box 147 Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317 II Dear Mr. Hanson: RE: PLANNING CASE 88-13 WAP, WETLAND ALTERATION, LOTUS LAKE (10-6) 1 Thank you for the opportunity to review and comment 88-13 WAP regarding filling and sodding of a on application (10-6P) . Minnesota Rules 6115.0190 Portion of Lotus Lake II below the ordinary water prohibit any excavation or fill Y (OHW) elevation of any state protected water for development purposes. 1 Lotus Lake, a state protected basin, has an established OHW elevation of 896. 3 feet (NGVD, 1929) . The plans submitted with the permit application indicate the proposed activities will include I filling/sodding below this protection elevation. Filling of this nature is inconsistent with Minnesota Rules and should not be permitted. 1 Again, filling and sodding below the OHW elevation is not allowed, and permit application 88-13 WAP should be denied. Amended plans which eliminate any fill/sodding activities below 896.3 feet would 1 meet with our approval. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. 1 Sincerely, 1 1 k Pat Lynch Hydrologist cc: Lotus Lake file (10-6P) City of Chanhassen file " Ilotuslkpl .:Lam::,"►:.: FEB 06 1989 CitY OF CHANhAssuv 111 AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER t ItSTATE OF 1 3�1C� Ce"Pt DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES m° METRO REGION WATERS - 1200 WARNER ROAD, ST. PAUL, MN 55106 PHONE NO. 296-7523 FILE NO. CERTIFIED II II October 27, 1989 II I Dr. Charles Hirt 7007 Cheyenne Trail II Chanhassen, MN 55317 RE: VIOLATION #V89-6055, UNAUTHORIZED FILL, LOTUS LAKE (10-6P), II CHANHASSEN, CARVER COUNTY Dear Dr. Hirt: On September 22, 1989 Department of Natural Resources personnel, • II along with representatives from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineets, again visited your property relative to fill activities undertaken II earlier along your lakefront property. The ordinary high water elevation (OHW) of Lotus Lake has been II established at elevation 896.3' (NGVD, 1929) . This elevation has been surveyed and staked to the east of the Colonial Estates property and immediately west of Mr. Pfankuch's property. Portions of the three contiguous lots between those stakes have been II illegally filled below the 011W. Yours is one such lot. Minnesota Rules, part 6115.0190, subpart 3. states, in part, II"Placement (of fill) shall not be permitted in the following cases: A. to achieve vegetation control; B. to create upland areas." Your fill activities are inconsistent with state rules, and the fill II placed below the OHW must be removed in its entirety. Further, the lakebed must be restored to its original cross-section. A written schedule for restoration must be approved by the DNR. We recommend II you pursue voluntary restoration, as it avoids additional cost and • - legal action. • _ You are further advised that you must also comply with all the I rules, regulations, and requirements of other applicable federal, state, and local agencies. 1 I AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER I _ . : . : • • : • - ' --wilk•-• -; , -- - • '' ' "I..- , r'`.•,..-.,%". w•-.• . ••• • .-w•- •,-• ,,.•-,..,•, . . • i . • - , - .‘ - lc: ' • '. -*• '% •t` . ..x.--+•..- ,.,-4 -4,--- "%;..' 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Iss $ S .ego tv� 'w'•I �� 1 1 - 07�b 1 /25.06 -S o. 1 1 Ng' Ig 2 N8,-�s�E �a 1 r 1� 81 I$ 82 �° 8 g Q a 1. 3 8 , tR • '.��07'� o V1 .. !6- . ,1 TYPICAL CROSS-SECTION (EXAG- E RATE D- NOT TO SCR LE) ORDINARY NLGH-WATER ELEVATION % 31 • • NAT\RAL RoUND 1- ELE VA toNi , - wow wr FELL M ATE RrAL To Bt REMOVED LOTUS LAKE RESTORATION t1 - NMI INNI - - - - - - NINI - — — — —NIN STATE OF i% \_� I tr]NCESOO4LQ 06 ,' EPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES �° METRO REGION WATERS - 1200 WARNER ROAD, ST. PAUL, MN 55106 PHONE N0. 296-7523 FILE NO. I . • December 6, 1989 I Dr. Charles Hirt II 7007 Cheyenne Trail Chanhassen, MN 55317 l RE: VIOLATION #89-6055, FILL, LOTUS LAKE (10-6P); CARVER COUNTY Dear Dr. Hirt: I This letter serves to confirm our recent telephone conversation of - October 30, 1989, in which you agreed to voluntarily remove the fill material placed below the ordinary high water elevation (OHW) of II Lotus Lake, in accordance with our previous correspondence to you, dated October 27, 1989. You will satisfy DNR concerns if the material is disposed of at an upland site above the OHW. You should check with the City and the Riley-Purgatory-Bluff Creek Watershed 1 District to ensure your proposed spoil deposition site is in compliance with their regulations. I I've enclosed a typical cross-section indicating the extent of fill to be removed. Please notify me within 15 days of the scheduled excavation. Since you are voluntarily removing the fill material 1 and restoring the area, no DNR permits will be required, nor will any fines be issued. The restoration should be completed by May 1, 1990. IIIf you choose to utilize natural rock riprap along the restored bank, you may do so in accordance with the enclosed brochure. If the riprap cannot meet the criteria outlined in the brochure, a IIpermit from this office will be required. Thank you for your cooperation in solving this matter. If you II have questions or wish to discuss furth , please do not hesitate to call. S cerel I A--- II Pat Lync Area Hydrol gist IEcnclosure �.,�- - _ cc: JoAnn Olson, City of Chanhassen DEC 07 1969 Ken Harrell, USCOE I Bob Obermey AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY Barr Engineering_ vI I Y Of.CHANHASSEN PL I70:kap RUNITY EMPLOYER I 4l • C , 4 . .,.,, . CHANHASSEN i .. , . , . 1 = 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147• CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612)937-1900• FAX(612)937-5739 I December 11, 1989 I Dr. Charles Hirt I 7007 Cheyenne Trail Chanhassen, MN 55317 I Mr. Robert Pfankuch 100 Sandy Hook Road Chanhassen, MN 55317 Mr. Stephen Frost z -'° 80 Sandy Hook Road Chanhassen, MN 55317 1 Dear Gentlemen: X" The City has received the letter from the Department of Natural Resources dated December 6,t=1989, in regard to your violation I fill along Lotus Lake. The Department of Natural Resources letter states that you have voluntaril , agreed to remove the fill material placed below the ordinary high 'water elevation of Lotus Lake and that the restoration shall be Completed by May 1, 1990. I The City has been waiting for the Department of Natural Resources to determine exactly what extent of fill needed to be removed to I satisfy their requirements prior to proceeding with your wetland alteration permit application 1m -file with the City. Since the DNR has made their:-final :determination'*re are-mow able to proceed with your application. The City needs a survey submitted from all three parties -showing the area of fill, the .ordinary high water mark and the area of t i . that wj11 a-removed as required by the DNR. i I y Although the violation �t�fAthe�DNR regulations has been resolved, the action is still==in violation of the City's Wetland Ordinance and you are still required to go through the Wetland Alteration Permit process. I The next application deadlines are January 8, and January 22, 1990. We are requesting that you provide the requested survey by I 4* 1CD I I 411 111 ecember 11, 1989 II Page 2 • - either January 8 or January 22, 1990. If you cannot make the application by these dates please submit a letter stating why the application needs to be postponed further. Should you have any questions please feel free to contact me. Sincerely, ..2k7 JoAnn Olson Senior Planner JO:n Icc: City Council Planning Commission ' Paul Krauss, Planning Director Pat Lynch, DNR i 1 r I I CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 21, 1990 • Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings, Annette Ellson and Ladd Conrail MEMBERS ABSENT: Brian Batzli , Jim Wildermuth and Joan Ahrens STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss, Director of Planning and Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner PUBLIC HEARING: WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO FILL IN A PORTION OF A CLASS A WETLAND LOCATED ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF AND LOCATED AT 7007 CHEYENNE TRAIL, CHARLES HIRT, II LOTUS LAKE BETTERMENT ASSOCIATION. Public Present: Name AI & Carol Anderson ' Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report. Chairman Conrad called the publid hearing to order. Al Anderson: Is this a hearing that you're proposing, I want to understand this better. The City or the Council or this committee is proposing that the only changes to be made out there is the enlargement of the restoration of this area to marshland. That's the proposal? , Conrad: The proposal is to restore it back to what it originally was, yeah. And then to allow a boardwalk through that that gives access to the 1 dock. Any other comments? Erhart moved, Emmings seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in II favor and the motion carried.' The public hearing was closed. Erhart: Do you have any idea in terms of, in the first place, the 3 lot II owners, did they work together in filling this thing in? Is that the way it was? Olsen: I know that the 2 lot owners did and it appeared that the outlot, II the homeowner's association also when it was happening did it along with that. I'm not exactly sure if they did it all together. It became apparent that that had also been filled. 1 Erhart: So there's 2 homes. On the beachlot, what was it? If that was a marsh, how did they use it as a beachlot area? I Olsen: How they had access to the dock? Planning Commission Meeting • February 21, 1990 - Page 2 ' Erhart: The dock was out through the cattails so how did they get out through it? Was there a boardwalk? ' Olsen: There must have been some sort of dock. Again, what exactly happened before that. . . ' Erhart: Were the other 2 docks there before they built also? How did they get out to those docks? ' Olsen: It was after the fact when I went out there. I know in one of those aerials it does show the one dock. I guess I should have brought. . . down but it looks like on the aerial you can see that it looks like it was this lot that had a dock out. It didn't look like there were 2 other docks ' here. That was an aerial from early 80's. Erhart: Is the applicant here? ' Olsen: I don' t see them. I don' t see the other two either. Erhart: Are you a neighbor? Al Anderson: We live on the other side of the. . . Carol Anderson: Our lot is directly opposite, across the creek. Erhart: Were the docks there before they filled? Al Anderson: Not that we're aware of. ' Carol Anderson: Not that we' re aware of. Erhart: So it's conceiveable that the docks were installed after they did the fill. ' Conrad: This particular one, the homeowners of this particular lot that we're looking at has always had a dock but it was not a very improved piece ' of land and I think they were literally tagging onto the other owners, homeowners who were trying to "improve" their property and they went along with the construction that, the homeowners association went along with the ' construction but in the past, in my recollection is they always had a little back there but it was not a very major dock whatsoever. Erhart: The dock actually could have gone up to the ordinary high water ' mark and probably was rebuilt after. . . Conrad: That would .be a good guess, yes. ' Olsen: The photos show, again you can see that those two did have. This is the recreational beachlot, the furthest one over. Behind the. . .and then this is the lot right next to it and it did go up through so yeah, they did 1 have like planks out to it. Planning Commission Meeting February 21, 1990 - Page 3 Erhart: Yeah. Do you have any idea in terms of volume how much dirt they moved in there? Olsen: No I don't. Erhart: Do you know who the contractor was who moved the dirt? Olsen: It's on the application. All these questions, I don't know the answers to. Elison: What are you getting at? Erhart: I'm just trying to get a feel for this. Did they haul it in with trucks? Olsen: Oh yeah. I mean there was a substantial amount of fill . Erhart: Do you have any idea how many truckloads? 1 Olsen: We could figure that out. Harland Johnson from Chaska was the contractor. Erhart: Do you think he's been around? Olsen: I would think that they would have known. I Erhart: Yeah. Hauling dirt onto a lakeshore just isn' t, that' s just. . . Conrad: And to jump onto Tim's comments, the last time we talked about this we were talking about what does Chanhassen do to contractors who theoretically know what the ordinances are but ignore them. In this case, and I know it's your turn to talk Tim but what do we do? Do we just say II this contractor's welcome back to Chanhassen? Do we have a way of penalizing the contractor? Krauss: We don't have any licensing of contractors that would allow us to I penalize them. All we can do is watch them more closely in the future. Olsen: Unless they get permits, we don't even know they're there. ' Conrad: Yeah, but we really don't have a way to restrict contractors? Erhart: Well you could. You could take, we do now have a penalty clause II in our wetlands filling. Krauss: Well who you go after is the property onwer. , Erhart: We could include the contractor in our ordinance too. I tell you,, if one of them got fined, believe me all the rest of them would know. That's just an idea. Conrad: Normally the contractor seeks the permit. I Planning Commission Meeting February 21, 1990 - Page 4 I ' Olsen: Right. Krauss : Well typically communities license trade's people. Plumbers, electricians. Contractors? I haven't heard of communities that extended that to grading contractors but it's not improbable that you could do so. Erhart: I was just thinking that you could write, correct me but we 1 changed the ordinance recently to actually penalize someone who fills wetlands right? Olsen: That's just the application fee is doubled and you can also go ' further. Erhart: If you could somehow slap hands of contractors too. It's just an I idea. What we're saying here, what the DNR recommended was they don't have to take out all the volume of material that was put in. ' Olsen: They just go the ordinary high water mark. Erhart: Yeah. And what we're recommending is to take it all out. Other ' than is there any, other than pure academics that they shouldn't have done it, therefore they should take it all out, is there any substitute reason why they should be allowed to leave some in? Is that improving or having no affect by leaving it? In other words, what's the difference between, ' other than philosophical, what's the difference between the DNR's recommendation and our recommendation? ' Olsen: Well our recommendation restores more wetland. And it's less manicured lawn, fertilizer . Krauss: The DNR is regulated, well what they're allowed to deal with is ' regulated by state law and they can only deal with it to the OHW. That doesn't mean they necessarily would oppose our going further. ' Erhart: And so they wouldn't even go beyond recommending that simply because. ' Krauss: They can' t. Olsen: They can't. Erhart: Okay. I've got one last question then. Allowing the boardwalk, that's basically consistent with what we'd do to anybody in the same circumstances? Olsen: Correct. Erhart: On number 4, do we have anything now that requires people to remove purple loosestrife? Olsen: It' s a noxious weed and again State law really, it's your responsibility to remove them. Planning Commission Meeting February 21, 1990 - Page 5 Erhart: The weed inspector is suppose to, who I think was Tom Hamilton. Olsen: He used to be. I think it's Scott Harr now isn't it? The problem is that there's real no cure you know to remove it but this stuff will be coming back young and that's when you get it. ' Erhart: The reason I ask, do we really want to include this item 4 in here if it's already another law? I think it just acts, not that I 'm pleased with what these people did by any means but I think it puts us, the City a little bit in the position of almost kind of kicking dirt at them and I think if that's already a law, that they have to remove it which cannot be enforced, I almost wonder if we shouldn't just stick to the first 3 points II and leave it at that so I'll pass it onto you Steve with those comments. Emmings: I don't really have much on this. I guess I don't, it seems that' the applicants have already agreed that they're going to do what the DNR has said they have to do so we're really talking about an additional 9 feet here and I guess I was a little bit torn between doing something that was just purely punitive for the sake of punishment and the fact that, which I II don't want to do and on the other hand being faced with this situation over and over again. We see this so often and if we don't take a stand I think whereby we will essentially always impose this type of penalty or our wetlands ordinance is going to be a joke because it's going to put a premium on ignoring the regulations and it can allow anybody who just goes ahead on their own to get whatever they want so I guess I don't think we have any choice but to have them remove it. Whether it's 36 or 45 feet, I don't know what the right amount is but I go along with the staff recommendation here. The only question I have is, I'm wondering what would happen, what happens to the fill that's removed? Do we have to be concerned about what they're going to do with that? Olsen: Yeah. It has to be removed. It can't be dumped on the other wetland. Emmings: I'm just scared that something like that will happen. Olsen: Yeah, I was going to put that in. That we should probably make. Emmings: Does it have to be removed from the site or can they dump it on I the higher portions of this ground if they want to where it will all wash back down? Olsen: The fact that it's got purple loosestrife in it means that again I you can see that it's growing. There are certain State regulations of ways that you have to remove that fill and where you can take it. Emmings: Right. There are what regulations? State regulations? Olsen: There's recommendations of certain things that you can' t just dump it right next to where you're taking it out because it will just, like you II say wash back in and the purple loosestrife will go back in. We don' t allow filling. To remove fill and then place that within another area of all wetlands. Planning Commission Meeting February 21, 1990 - Page 6 II ' • Emmings: I just see that as a shortcoming in the recommendations. I think we should have a recommendation that removed fill or fill that is removed. Or they' ll submit a plan as to where the fill will be deposited to the City before removing any and it will be approved by the City. Or to be approved by the City staff. Something like that. ' Erhart: Yeah, including erosion control. Emmings: They're doing things like that. Kind of a grading. Would you call it a grading plan? ' Olsen: Yeah, technically they'll have to get another grading plan. I Emmings: So a grading plan. Erosion control and where the spoils will be deposited. That's all I have. ' Conrad: Good Steve. Annette? Ellson: I agree with the staff to extend it to the entire area versus just the ordinary high water mark. I like the idea of adding what Steve did for ' a number 5. It would just be our luck that we would have them just put it higher up on the same soil so if we go to all the trouble to tell them which manual , how to remove loosestrife is, the least we can do is refer them to the State recommendation or permit process or how to make sure they dispose of fill with purple loosestrife in it properly as well. But I agree with staff's recommendation. Conrad: There is not a date in our motion as to when it has to be removed ' by. ' Olsen: Well the DNR's date was May 1st. We might as well just have the same date. ' Erhart: We can' t do that because they cannot move equipment until the limits are off the roads. Ellson: The what? 11 Erhart: Until the road restrictions, if they're going to haul equipment in which they're going to have to do here. ' Conrad: Yeah, May 1st seems a little bit. ' Erhart: Usually that goes off May 15th. We have to give them 30 days. June 15th would give them 30 days. Conrad: What date? ' Erhart: June 15th would give them generally 30 days. Sometimes those limits come off earlier depending on the weather. May 15th usually. 1 Planning Commission Meeting February 21, 1990 - Page 7 II Conrad: By the way, I think that's a real good staff report. I really I liked how it was worded. My only other comment would be when we restore this Jo Ann, it simply means removing so as we remove, does that mean we' ll have 35 feet of water taking the place, depending on water level and what have you, and then we' ll have, or whatever the number is and 9 feet above the water level which will be barren at this time. So what does it look like? What we have done, we haven' t restored. We have removed. Olsen: Right. There's that cross section with the DNR that we' ll still I give it that. It won' t just be, it will have some grade to it and then it will have the stone wall or whatever. I can't remember what they referred I to it as. You can, what we've done before with others is to work with them, with the DNR and the Fish and Wildlife to come up with some plantings. If you want them to go that far, we can do that. Conrad: I just don't want it to look ugly or I don't want to restrict it to being nothing. Olsen: It will come back pretty quick. I mean they do return to their natural state. Conrad: So the cattails will come back? 1 Olsen: I've been told, yeah. That's what they always. Conrad : They probably will in that area. Erhart: In here they will. 1 Conrad: Yeah. Okay. I think we should have a date in there by which this is restored and I like the comments on the plan that is submitted and some erosion control procedures. I think that makes a lot of sense. That's my only comment. Is there a motion? Emmings: I'll move the Planning Commission recommend approval. of Wetland I Alteration Permit #89-1 with the following conditions. Number 1 would be as it is in the staff report with the addition in the first sentence that the work will be done by June 15, 1990. Conditions 2, 3 and 4 will stay as they are and there will be a fifth condition added saying that the applicant, that prior to doing any work, the applicant shall submit grading and erosion control plans and a plan as to the disposal of deposit of the soil that's removed. He'll submit a plan to be approved by City staff. I Erhart: I'll second it. 1 Emmings moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Wetland Alteration Permit #89-1 with the following conditions: 1. The applicant shall remove 25' x 45' x 30' of fill measuring from the property line adjacent to Lotus Lake as shown on the final plat. The fill will be removed by June 15, 1990 using the typical cross section provided by the DNR. Planning Commission Meeting February 21, 1990 - Page 8 II 2. The applicant shall be permitted one boardwalk through the restored wetland to provide access to the dock. ' 3. The area of removed fill shall be allowed to restore to a natural state. ' 4. Any purple loosestrife that returns shall be immediately removed as recommended by the Fish and Wildlife Service manual , "Spread, Impact and Control of Purple Loosestrife in North America Wetlands". 5. Prior to any work being done on the site, the applicant shall submit for City staff approval a grading and erosion control plan. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ' JOINT MEETING WITH CITY COUNCIL TO INFORMALLY DISCUSS THE LAND USE PLAN CHAPTER OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. Conrad: Did you have the City Council waiting outside? Krauss: Unfortunately not. ' Ellson: They were expecting us to go a little late? Krauss: I don't know. I was contacted by Bill Boyt and Tom Workman and told they could not make it but I think this might fall into the realm of ' what if we gave a meeting and nobody came. Conrad: You would think they would be here by now. ' Krauss: Yeah, I think that's the case. Without their presence, obviously that takes a big chunk out of what we were going to tackle tonight. There ' are some other things, we might as well use the time effectively. There's some other things we can touch base on. The lack of presence of the Council's a little discouraging. I think that their input at this juncture ' is real vital and possibly if Moses won't come to the mountain we can go to them. Everybody's been having some exceedingly long meetings lately and may possibly that's the result of it. We had hoped to give you, in addition to the material that we gave you, we had hoped to give you the ' goals and policy section. We had drafted it up and put it into our word processor. Unfortunately it ate it. Our word processor is old and it's being replaced and hopefully we can replace it quicker now. • ' Earnings: That gives us another goal for the City. Krauss: We've got them, we just don' t know how to use them yet. . .the plan but we had to go to some extreme methods to do it and ship it out to another firm to rescue the magnetic tape. We have it back now and we're working on it. Since the last time we met on the comprehensive plan we've done a number of things. Mark and I have been working extensively and Jo Ann has been working with us too, to actually give you the plan elements I ■ 1.3- O II.) b;v;DuM∎,.. .(NS Sea 144e'W\ IkJ O 1vv.,P f-e va_ zot — C1 Olt W►4Li< ?X.* 'tn GtwR 10 "\--12441.t An v ..)D I I 3._ S w??o R-\-- -i L€ ij to∎1 tl ',N o A 5 DE w SAL x14,-S �. gat p"C "T\ fi o ti t- t o cz- -T'Ri= t L Rozma c i I N Prw\e A DD Re-SS 'P-i40 wg -DATE_ tQ ----2>a -20 (.1 Ictou. 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