1i Approval of MinutesCITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MINUTES
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 1999
The meeting convened at 5:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Council members Engel, Jansen, Labatt and Senn.
STAFF PRESENT: Scott Botcher, City Manager; Todd Gerhardt, Assistant City Manager;
Bruce DeJong, Finance Director; Kate Aanenson, Community Development Director; Charles
Folch, Public Works Director
2000 BUDGET: Kate Aanenson, Community Development Director was present to discuss her
budget. As there were no significant changes in the budget, the discussion was quite brief. The
focus of the discussion was primarily on the administrative positions within the Public
Safety/Building Inspections Departments. It was indicated that utilization 'of these staff positions
would be observed by the City Manager as organizational changes progress.
Todd Gerhardt, Assistant City Manager, was present to discuss the administrative part of the
budget, and again, the amount of questioning involving these budgets were minimal. A
significant increase was shown in the elections budget, as a presidential election will be held in
the year 2000.
Charles Folch was present to discuss the Public Works Department budgets. The focus of the
discussion was the action of the City Manager to remove a request by the Public Works Director
for $200,000 per year for the initiation of the-installation of radio controlled meter reading
devices. It was the City Manager's position that there was no cost benefit analysis indicating
that utilization of this technology was superior to any other and would in fact be economically
beneficial to the organization. The council concurred and this recommendation was upheld.
LEAGUE OF MINNESOTA CITIES, AMM, AND NATIONAL LEAGUE OF CITIES
LEGISLATIVE POLICIES: Following the budgetary discussions, the council reviewed the
League of Minnesota Cities, AMM, and National League of Cities Legislative Policy Positions.
A majority of them were agreed with; several were not and were noted by Mayor Mancino and
City Manager Botcher for utilization in voting the city's position on these policies at the Policy
Adoption Conference on November 19.
MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS: The final item on the agenda was Miscellaneous Items wherein
some basic discussion was held regarding PUD's and the authority of cities to act there under.
Respectfully submitted,
Scott A. Botcher
City Manager
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
WORK SESSION
NOVEMBER 22, 1999
Mayor Mancino called the work session to order at 5 :.30 p.m.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Labatt, Councilwoman
Jansen, Councilman Semi, and Councilman Engel.
STAFF PRESENT: Scott Botcher, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Kate Aanenson, Bruce
DeJong, and Anita Benson
2000 Prosecution Contract with the Carver CounP,~ Attorney's Office.
Mike Fahey from the Carver County Attorney's office was present to answer any questions from
the City Council. Councilman Labatt stated that the information that had been provided to the
Council was not the information lie was looking for in the 1998 annual report. Mayor Mancino
asked about 20% going to the State. Council asked staff their opinion of this contract. Both the
Git5: Manager and City Attorney stated that they thought this was a good deal for the City.
_C. onsent Agenda:
a. Approve Quote for Electrical Service Work at Wells in Conjunction with Mobile
Generator Project.
A representative from Bonestroo was present to answer any questions. City Council did not have
any questions on this item.
b. Appointment to Youth Cominission.
Mayor Mancino asked hoxv long the terms were for this commission. The City Manager stated
he would get that information back to the Council.
c. Approve Resolution Requesting Design Element Variance for TH 5/West 78th Street
Improvement Pro.iect 97-6.
Mayor Mancino asked if there were going to be two paths, one fbr pedestrians and one for
bicycles. Anita Benson stated that it xvas just one path to accommodate both.
e. Approval of Bills.
No questions were asked on this iteml
E Approval of Minutes.
City Council Work Session - November 22, 1999
No questions were asked on this item.
g. Approval of Resolution Amending Contract for Banking Services.
Councilman Senn asked some questions of Bruce DeJong regarding average balance information,
how long the contract lasted, and how much money was in investments and earning interest.
h. Approval of 2000 Meeting Schedule.
Mayor Mancino just wanted to clarify that the Council did not have to meet on all the work
session dates as outlined.
Public ltearings: Request for Cit37 Subsidy on Lot 6t Block It Cbanhassen Business Center
Second Additiont (Northwest Corner of Lake Drive and Audubon Road)t Boedecker
Companvt and Request for City Subsid¥~ Eden Trace Corporation: Lot It Block It
Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Additiont Lot 2~ Block 1~ Chanhassen Lakes Business
Park 7th Addition~ Lot 3~ Block 1~ Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition~ and Lot 4~
Block 1~ Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition.
Todd Gerhardt passed out some handouts to clarify some of the questions he had received
regarding the two items related to city subsidy, and clarified some of the typographical errors in
the agreements. Councihnan Senn asked for clarification on administration fees and fiscal
disparities. Staff stated they would work with the companies to fill in the actual numbers
regarding employees and wage levels.
5. Resolution Awarding General Obligation hnprovement Bonds of 1999.
Bruce DeJong passed out the results of the bids on this item and explained the results to the
council.
Reconsider Conceptual PUD Request for Mixed Housing Development (414 units)
Consisting of Manor Homest Court Homes~ Village Homes~ and Townhomes on 82.8
Acres; and 3.7 Acres of Commercial Uses~ Located on the Northeast Corner of
Highways 5 and 41~ Arboretum Viilage~ Pulte Homes. ~
Mayor Mancino stated that this item would not be a public hearing and asked Kate Aanenson to
give a report to the citizens on the action the City Council was taking at the City Council
meeting.
8. Approval of 2000 Contract for Police Services.
Councilman Senn asked about the Exhibits. Scott Botcher stated that the department heads
would be asked if there's any equipment they could use in their departments. Mayor Mancino
asked that the City Council be provided with quarterly updates.
2
City Council Work Session - November 22, 1999
The City Council work session was adjourned at 6:30 p.m.
Submitted by Scott Botcher
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 22, 1999
Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:35 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the
Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Engel,
Councilwoman Jansen and Councilman Senn
STAFF PRESENT: Scott Botcher, Roger Knutson, Anita Benson, Todd Gerhardt, Kate Aanenson, Beth
Hoiseth, and Bruce DeJong
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councihnan Senn moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the
agenda as presented.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Couneihvoman Jnnsen moved, Couneilnmn Labatt seconded to approve the
following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
a. Approve Quote for Electrical Service Work at Wells in Conjunction with Mobile Generator
Project.
b. Appointment to Youth Commission.
c. Resoh, tion #99-97: Approve Resolution Requesting Design Element Variance for TH 5/West 78m
Street Improvement Project 97-6.
e. Approval of Bills.
f. Approval of Minutes:
- Work Session Minutes dated October 18, 1999
- Work Session Minutes dated November 1, 1999
- Work Session Minutes dated Novelnber 8, 1999
- City Council Minutes dated November 8, 1999
g. Resolution #99-98: Approval of Resolution Amending Contract for Banking Services.
h. Approval of 2000 Meeting Schedule.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
VISITOR PRESENTATION:
Mike Ryan: My name is Mike Ryan. I live at 2595 Southern Court in Chanbassen. I understand that
with point number 7, with llew business that there will be no debate so I'd like to take the opportunity to
share some opinions and views. Thank you for the opportunity to present our Chanhassen neighborhood
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
concerns and views on the proposed project at Highway 5 and 41. Like you we want the best for our city
and we want to have our eyes on the future. We too want to respect and work with the existing housing
guidelines in the comp plan guidelines. We believe the City could do better than what is currently
proposed by Pulte. Doing better includes planning for tax burdens and tax alleviation. Has the City
exhausted all alternatives to this project in order to provide a better tax base for the City? As concerned
citizens we have taken an active interest in understanding the processes involved in this project. This is
not an area of expertise for the average citizen and for many of us this has been a real education. And I
applaud all of you as council members and mayor for working with such details day-to-day and week-to-
week. As I said, we have taken an active interest in understanding this process but please understand that
up to this point we've only had a 10-minute neighborhood meeting with Pulte. This lack of dialogue I am
certain is maybe another reason for the frustration in understanding this development and if we have this
opportunity to speak with Pulte before this vote for the PUD, maybe things would be smoother for all
involved. As existing citizens we purchased tile adjoining property that is adjoining tile property south of
the north frontage road proposed by Pulte. With the understanding that it was guided for a Iow, single
family or twin home residential neighborhood. As present Chanhassen residents we have a vested interest
in this development due to our understanding of the existing guiding principles of the comp plan. And
these comp plans do reflect Iow density. This property is guided again for low density single family or
twin home, not the town home or multi-family as conceptually proposed by Pulte for the north frontage
road. It's our understanding that the desired Pulte land is currently A2, Agricultural Estate District and is
guided for medium south of the frontage and Iow north of the frontage. Pulte is requesting rezoning, is
what we understand, but what kind of rezoning are they requesting? As guided or as medium south and
mediun north? And if Pulte is requesting medium north for the north fi'ontage, our question'is does there
need to be a council vote for rezoning from Iow to medium density north of the fi'ontage road. Is your
vote tacit approval of the medium density for the north of the frontage road? Or will it remain low
density north of the frontage road? There is also confusion of the density per acreage. What is the
buildable acreage to make the calculations of density for this north frontage? We feel this is critical
information because decisions are being made assuming that the Iow residential of I to 4 is maintained
based on mixed information fi'om Pulte and staff. And this information is based on, is on tile total
acreage available. This begs the next question. Can the City approve low density units but not meet the
criteria of Ioxv density dwellings, i.e. single family residential or twin homes. We request that this be
clarified. Again as adjoining neighbors we understood the City's comp guidelines and that we are
continuously reminded that are so important to this city but we are, and when we purchased our property
we were reminded by our developer, in this case it was Lundgren, that this land was guided for low
density, single family or twin homes. We invested in Chanhassen with this knowledge and ask tile '
council to respect these guided reasons why we moved to select and invest in this neighborhood and
Chanhassen. I have copies of Pulte's development and review application of July 30, 1999 where they
recognize and request that the land stay as guided Iow and medium. It states in their application present
land use designation, low, medium in density residential neighborhood retail. In the next category it's
requested, and it's requested by Pulte as low and medium density residential neighborhood retail. In fact
on the same day, July 30th Pulte sent a letter to Kathryn Aanenson and in the third paragraph it states, that
they are not requesting any density transfer from the property west of Highway 41 per our calculations.
This adds to our confusion of the staff report that is making this density transfer. This chronology and
the Pulte conceptual proposals are conflicting and confi~sing. Pulte does not request.the transfer but the
transfer is in the staff report. Pulte is requesting Iow and medium density but staff is mixing density.
The concept states it is meeting Iow occupancy but is not abiding by the dwelling requirements as guided
by low density. There needs to be clarity and we ask for your assistance in answering these questions
before you vote on this PUD tonight. Next comment we have is on the housing guidelines for
Chanhassen. On page 31 of the comp plan it states the following. The City will promote the integration
of life cycle housing opportunities throughout tile community. Affordable and subsidizedhousing shall
2
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
not be overly concentrated in one area of the city. The Pulte concept project that you are being asked to
vote on is approximately, to the best that we can calculate the numbers, is approximately 68% affordable
and subsidized housing or 284 units of 418 units. This is in conflict to the city guidelines.
Coincidentally, this past Thursday the Star and Trib and the State of Minnesota has recognized Maple
Grove for their affordable housing strategy of mixing 5% to 20% in developments. Tonight you're being
asked to vote on this concept PUD of again 68% affordable and subsidized. Pulte as an expert in
development and knowing our guidelines, the question is why did they submit such a large percent for
PUD? We hear how Pulte is working with the city to accomplish mutual goals but as a citizen I ask why
has staff not guided Pulte and their concept to reflect the City's guidelines. Previously I noted the
question of acreage north of the frontage. This is very important to understand because units are being
calculated based on these calculations. I have separate documents that reflect different acres. There's an
August 6~h document by the City which reflects 62 '/2 acres whereas Pulte's reflects 80.5 acres. This is
for the total north and south. This is quite a disparity. Which is correct? What is buildable? And also
staff calculates approximately 43.9 north of the fi'ontage and Pulte calculates 38.8. This may seem like
minutia but it is vitally important if your vote tonight has a bearing on tile final product on this issue of
Iow to medium density. As you can see this is confusing but we feel it's critical in understanding the
density arguments. Is the city legally exposing itself xvhen voting on this PUD from a position of
weakness when all tile facts are not clear? We see a whole lot of cart before the horse. The townhome
rental units also pose a set of questions. We respect tile intentions of the townbomes but it seems odd
that Mr. Deanovic, as his own developer is bundled as defacto of Pulte. Is this standard procedure? As
currently guided, the townhomes are not zoned for low density for the north frontage road as noted in
Pulte's concept plan. For Pulte developments are their principle occupation and they have very clear
economic interests. We all need to respect those interests but as council members we respectfully ask
that you take special care to respect the interests of the existing and surrounding neighbors that comprise
Chanhassen. Those residents who have investments and invested as currently guided. We also ask that
as council members you take oxvnership to the best optimal vision of the western gateway. This is all of
ours. Our last chance to define tile western gatexvay to Cbanhassen. Pulte will come and go. They are
not a Byerly's or a Target xvho have a long term interest in tile position in this COlnmunity. This is our
chance as existing citizens to have tile pleasure or disappointment of a visually attractive gateway. This
is our chance to build or preserve in the best interest of the city and the best interest of the residents. I
respectft, lly request the consideration of our questions posed to you tonight and tile zoning implications
for the north fl'ontage.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you Michael. When we get this, when that comes on the agenda.
which I'm sure you'lt all stay for, Kate if you can address some of those. And I don't know if you can
address all of them but if you've got most of them, we will try to address those when that's on the agenda
so xve can have some time for that. That'd be fine. Thank you. Is there anyone else? Wishing to
address the council..Okay.
PUBLIC SAFETY UPDATE.
Mayor Mancino: Well Bob Z and John Wolff, you certainly bare changed. So if you'd like to introduce
yourselves and give us an update. Scott or Beth.
Scott Anding: Scott Anding, First Assistant Chief of the Chanhassen Fire Department. Mayor and
members of the Council. We are going to, tonight I just want to briefly tell you people what we','e going
to be doing preparing for Y2K. The fire department does not see any problems, or foresee any problems.
The only problems we do see is that the phone lines could pose a problem for the fire department is
everybody decides to pick up the phone and see if it's going to work at 12:00. We have in place a
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
secondary means of notification where through public notice in the local papers we're going to ask
residents if they do have a problem, the phone lines are down, that we will have them come directly to
the fire station. We will have a total of 15 personnel between the two stations. The one here in town and
the one out at Minnewashta on Highway 7. They will be staffed from 8:00 to 1:00 a.m. If we do have
problems we call in additional personnel and take care of the problems accordingly. We have installed a
new generator out at the west station and that is operational. Just in case we have any problems with
power going out, our station over here in the city and the west station will have power to make sure that
we have a radio communications and stuff like that operating. All the trucks and our computer systems
have been checked for compliance for Y2K. And last but not least we're expecting the delivery of our
new rescue 218 at the end of the month.
Mayor Mancino: Great. And are you having a party for New Year's Eve to have all the.
Scott Anding: For the individuals that are going to be staffing the stations, yes we are. We are providing
them with dinner and inviting their families to come down and join itl a little festivities if they xvant and
we're taking care of that.
Mayor Mancino: Good, xve know where to come then. Any questions for Sco'tt? Beth.
Beth ltoiseth: l'm Beth l toiseth, Crime Prevention Specialist roi' tile City of Chanhassen and I'll
probably just go over my most recent activities for the month of October. I submit one to you each
month. I don't know if it was covered last xveek, or last month but police officers aud myself participated
in Fire Safety Week and for years the fire department has provided the safety educatiou for a week at the
fire station where they bring first, second and some third graders to the station and circulate them through
safety sessions. Well for the last two years myself and police officers have gotten involved and taken on
those safety sessions and this year I talked to all the children about personal safety and safety with
strangers and then I had a couple of the police officers talk a little bit about their job and then introduce
tile children to their squad cars and let them try on police uniforms and interact with the children and it's
really a perfect opportunity to you know close the gap between police officers and youth and have that
positive interaction. So we're going to continue to do that every year and welcome the opportunity to do
that with, partake with the fire station on that and fire depamnei~t. And neighborhood watch continues to
be a very active this year. I'm very pleased with the number of neighborhood watch groups that we
started this year. We started 13 new groups this year and that's significantly higher than the other years
so I don't know why. Just maybe the words getting out. 1 don't know but very pleased with that. Had
two more tneetings in October. I had one this month and even in December I have one scheduled and
usually this time of year it's pretty quiet with the holiday season but we still have a few going on. And
we completed our citizens police academy program that ended the first Tuesday in November. We had
12 students enrolled and perfect attendance during the six week course. The officers did a fantastic job
with their presentations. They kept the interest and kept the students coming back each week. 1 really
would like to commend the officers who took part as instructors for the class. Officer Bob Zydowsky
and Officer Carrie Nolden were instructors and three deputies with Carver County Sheriff's Department.
Deputy Eldon Anderson, Mike Douglas, and Roger Roach. And just a note on the side that I believe
~Carver County Deputies did this on their own time so they just volunteered their time to come and assist
with the program. And then we also had the State Patrol. We had theln participate for two nights also.
And one of the objectives of the program is to possibly generate the volunteers for the community and
l'm very pleased to report that two of the students came forward to express an interest in partaking the
Carver County Police Reserves so it was a very successful program. And I had one crime alert
distributed to businesses early October in the Century Boulevard area. They had had problems, various
vandalism problems throughout the year and we met with some of the management of those business
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
complexes. I distributed flyers and just to alert all the employees of the problems so they were kept in
the loop as to vandalism problems and also to encourage reporting in watching for and reporting
suspicious activity. So far we haven't heard any problems so we'll just kind of keep our fingers crossed.
It's been pretty quiet since the last incidents in September. And then the last item I'd like to mention,
back in October Wooddale Church, they volunteered, they had their :7outh volunteer to do kind of a
clean-up program on a Saturday for the city and police and fire fighters were also involved. We
coordinated to have some of the youth go over and wash squad cars and fire trucks as well. So thanks to
the church and the youth and again it was another opportunity to create a positive interaction. And as far
as criminal activity, we haven't had any big crime trends since this summer really wasn't a big crime
trend but we did have an increase in business burglaries. That has diminished over this last few months.
Residential burglaries is about the same. Slightly higher from last year and we continue to have
problems with theft from vehicle so I continue to try to educate the community on that. That's about all
the thefts, including residential and non-residential, excluding burglaries, about 25% of all thefts are theft
from vehicle and that's 1998. This year so far it's increased to near 30% so it certainly tends to be our
number one p,'oblem is theft from vehicle.
Mayor Mancino: Beth, do you tneet with the different neighborhood watch groups once a year? Twice a
year? How often?
Beth Hoiseth: Once a year. I put out a newsletter once a year encouraging to continue to have annual
meetings. Some of them are real good about that. Others are not. I'm looking, but typically once a year
to meet with old neighborhood watch groups but in addition to that the new ones. You want to keep
creating and developing new ones. And since the turnout as far as response and having annual meetings
is about 50%, it's not as good as I'd like to see it, I'm looking at, I've talked with other communities and
what they've done and looking at hopefully having people get involved with National Night Out and
using that as their night to meet xvith law enforcement so l'm trying to coordinate something with that,
which xvould take quite a bit oF involvement with the county but hopefully I'm sure they'd be very
interested in celebrating that event and that's in August. So then the neighborhood watch groups would
partake in that.
Mayor Mancino: Questions? Thanks for coming. Appreciate it.
PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR CITY SUBSIDY ON LOT 6, BLOCK 1, CHANHASSEN
BUSINESS CENTER SECOND ADDITION (NORTHWEST CORNER OF LAKE DRIVE AND
AUDUBON ROAD), BOEDECKER COMPANY.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor and City Council, this is a public hearing to consider business subsidy for
Boedecker Companies and consideration of approval of the Private Redevelopment Agreement between
Boedecker Companies and the City of Chanhassen. Boedecker Companies meets two of the three
qualifications. They will be increasing their employment in the State of Minnesota and preserving and
enhancing Chanhassen's tax base. Their taxes per year will be approximately $89,000, creating 20 new
jobs to their existing employment base of 35 in the year 2000. Boedecker is proposing to construct a
35,000 square foot office/manufacturing facility for the assembly and production of materials handling
equipment for the construction industry. Before you is a Private Redevelopment Agreement xvith
Boedecker Companies and their request for business subsidy of $67,260.38. Staff would ask the City
Council to consider modifying the Private Redevelopment Agreement and page 9, and modifying the
public assistance of Article IV using language that exists in Item 4(a), Private Redevelopment Agreement
with Eden Trace Corporation. Then the current language used on page 9 of that agreement. And also
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
eliminating item 6.10 and wage and job, oll page 12. It should be included in the new section of Article
IV, Section 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3. With that staff would take any public or council comments.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you very much. Is there anyone from council that has any questions for
staff at this point? This is a public hearing. Anyone wishing to address the council on this please come
forward. Seeing none, any discussion on council.
Councihnan Senn: I'll move approval of the Private Redevelopment Agreement with Boedecker
Company deleting Article IV and replacing it with Article IV as staff suggested and also deletion of 6.10.
Mayor Mancino: The new Article IV doesn't there also need to be a change, the 3.9 to 4.3?
Councilman Senn: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, if you could, if we could add that to your.
Councilman Senn: 3.9 as referenced in the new Article IV xvould now be 4.3.
Mayor Mancino: Is there a second to the motion?
Councihnan Engel: Second.
Councilman Senn moved, Councihnan Engel seconded to approve the Private Redevelopment
Agreement with Boedecker Company and their request for $67,260.38 in city assistance as
amended by staff. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR CITY SUBSIDY~ EDEN TRACE CORPORATION: LOT
1~ BLOCK 1~ CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK 7TM ADDITION~ LOT 2~ BLOCK 1~
CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK 7TM ADDITION~ LOT 3~ BLOCK 1~ CHANHASSEN
LAKES BUSINESS PARK 7TM ADDITION~ AND LOT 4~ BLOCK 1~ CHANHASSEN LAKES
BUSINESS PARK 7TM ADDITION.
Mayor Mancino: Staff report, and should we just take them all as one?
Todd Gerhardt: You can.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, and do one motion. The attorney said 3'es so that's how xve'll do it. Thank you.
Todd Gerhardt: Do you want me to go through tile reports on those? Just take public comments?
Mayor Mancino: Why don't you go ahead. I think there are some changes and why don't you, if you
could talk about those and then we'll take public comment. Thank you.
Todd Gerhardt: Okay. Under item 4(a), Lot 1, Block 1, Chan Lakes Business Park 7. Monk Properties
LLC meets two of the three qualifications for TIF assistance. Again they are increasing the employment
within the State and preserving and enhancing the City of Chanhassen's tax base. Monk Properties are
proposing to construct a 19,632 square foot office warehouse facility. Based on the city's three year
inceutive program, when we approved tile Eden Trace tax increment district, the criteria used in
approving that district was to pick up the outstanding special assessments for Lake Drive. And those
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
outstanding specials for Lot 1, Block I are $48,077.40. Staff would ask the City Council to modify
staff's recommendation, instead of $49,218.51 in city assistance, it should read $48,077.40. Staff would
also ask that the City Council modify Article IV, Section 4.1, 2 and 3 in those places that relate to 3.9 and
change it to 4.3. Staff will take any comments from the City Council at this time on that one.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, any questions on 4(a)? Is there anyone wishing to address the City Council on
4(a)? Which is Lot 1, Block 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition. Then we'll go forward to
4(b).
Todd Gerhardt: Under 4(b), again Monk Properties, multi-tenant building. Again increasing the
employlnent base of the city, preserving and enhancing the City of Chanhassen's tax base. Their annual
taxes will be approxi~nately $32,000. Again proposing to construct a 19,632 square foot office
warehouse facility. Again we'd ask that the City Council modify the city assistance from $49,218.51 to
the outstanding specials of $46,574.98. And also under Article IV, staffwould suggest that any place
between Article, Section 4.1,4.2, 4.3 where it relates to 3.9 be changed to 4.3. And that is on Lot 2,
Block 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions fi'oln council?
Todd Gerhardt: The next agrcemen! is for Lot 3, Block 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition.
Private Redevelopment Agreement is with the Chanhassen Lakes Business Park Third LLC. Again they
are increasing employment within the state, preserving and enhancing the city of Chanhassen's tax base
by approximately $84,000. Chanhassen Lakes Business Park Third Group is proposing to construct a
48.565 square foot office warehouse and manufacturing facility. Again staff would ask that the City
Council modify the total incentives to relate back to the total incentives, or assessments against Lot 3,
Block 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park in the amount of $77,624.96. There's also a typo on page 3
where market value of not less than $687,124 should be changed to $1,700,000 and again modify those
areas under Article IV, Section 4.1,4.2 and 4.3 where it reads 3.9. That should be changed to 4.3.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, any questions? Anyone wishing to address the council on this? It is a public
hearing. Okay. Last one, 4(d) please.
Todd Gerhardt: 4(d) relates to Lot 4, Block 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition. This is
Eden Trace Corporation and they are proposing to build an 18,388 square foot office warehouse facility.
Again they are increasing the employment within the State and preserving and enhancing the City of
Chanhassen's tax base by approximately $30,000 per year. The estimated amount of incentives totaling
this site.
Councilwoman Jansen: $45,072.56.
Councilman Engel: Fourth line in your special little addendum sheet that you gave us this evening.
Todd Gerhardt: I handed them all out.
Councihnan Engel: You don't have one any more.
Todd Gerhardt: I don't have one.
Councilman Engel: Do you waut mine?
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Mayor Mancino: $45,072.56.
Todd Gerhardt: Again Article IV, we would change to read 4.3 instead of 3.9.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any questions from council? This is a public bearing. Anyone
wishing to address the council on this public hearing. Seeing none, let's bring it back to council on all of
these, ls there any discussion? Then may I have a motion please.
Councilman Senn: Move approval of items 4(a), (b), (c) and (d) as per staff recommendation.
Councihnan Labatt: Second.
Councilnmn Senn moved, Conncilnmn Labatt seconded to approve the following requests for city
subsidy by Eden Trace Corporation:
a. Private Redevelopment Agreement with Monk Properties LLC, as amended, and their request for
$48,077.40 in city assistance.
b. Private Redevelopment Agreement with Monk Properties LLC, as amended, and their request for
$46,574.98 in city assistance.
c. Private Redevelopment Agreement with Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 3, LLC, as amended, and
their request for $77,624.96 in city assistance.
d. Private Redevelopment Agreement with Eden Trace Corporation, as amended, and their request for
$45,072.56 in city assistance.
All voted in favor and the motion cnrried unanimously.
AWARD OF BIDS: RESOLUTION AWARDING GENERAL OBLIGATION IMPROVEMENT
BONDS OF 1999.
Scott Botcher: As you are aware we have gone to market for approximately 4.255 million dollars in
general obligation debt. As indicated at the work sessiotl, iii years past we have generally segregated our
debt into two or more issues. This year we bare consolidated the issue into a single issue, Series 1999A.
And I guess at this point I'll just shut tip and let Dave talk.
Dave MacGilM'ay: Good evening Mayor, members of the Council. We'd like your consideration ora
resolution accepting the bid on a competitive sale of $4,255,000 general obligation bonds, Series 1999A.
The proceeds will fund four special assessment improvement projects of about $2.6 million and three
water utility projects of approximately $1.6 mil lion as Scott said to bring those two together. The
improvement portions of this will be repaid by special assessments. The water portions would be repaid
by sewer and water expansion funds, sewer and water utility funds. We took competitive bids in our
offices at noon today. The results are before you on the yellow sheet. The City received 10 bids. The
lowest or best bid was fi'om Cronin and Company Incorporated at a rate of 4.8376%. Our forecast of
approximately 30 days ago was 5.13%. This is 3/10 of a percent under that. During that time the
market's come down maybe 1/10 of I% so it is significantly tinder market performance. I would like to
note, not getting your hopes tip too high but you'll see on the right hand corner here, Standard and Poors
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
rating AAA. With that we're so, that is we provide insurance at the purchaser's option, not the city's
option. Or not the city's cost. So some of these bidders selected insurance. Cronin did. It's their cost
and we believe that benefits the city in a lower interest rate. I would like to note this is extremely busy
sale calendar. Ten bids, the city only in two cases, both in 1995 have ever had 10 bids so with all the
activity that's out there, a significant number of bidders. Also, there are names here that you don't
normally recognize, and I'll let you go through the bids. Bernardi certainly. Griffen has bid on tile
before. And Nike. So there's a wide distribution across the country of bids. I would like to talk about
the city's credit rating, and I've attached two other reports to the bid tabulation results. You'll recall that
a number of years ago following some of the iuvestment situations, the City ceased doing business with
Moody's. Moody's continues to rate the city because they have a large number of outstanding bonds still
outstanding. Well with this issue Moody's has essentially upgraded you to an A3 which is basically the
same place you were before the investment situation so you're fully restored in that situation. Standard
and Poors and I think the Mayor and Scott and Bruce certainly recall we had a visit by Standard and
Poors out to the city a couple weeks back. That bore so,ne fruit. Whereas they didn't change the rating,
you look under the headline there it says outlook revised positive. What that lneans in tile industry is that
all signs are there that within 18 months the city would be upgraded to an A level. Their notes talk about
the physical growth. They had extensive discussions on the tax increment financing situation. I think the
work that's been done over the last few years to put a proactive management plan together to respond to
the state situation is evidenced by Standard and Poors comfort in looking forward to...upgrade for the
city. I guess finally a little bit personally. This is my last appearance before tile City. I decided to go
with another advisor. It's certainly been an interesting time and I think there's been a number of
accomplishments. Particnlarly with the credit rating situation. We feel very good about that and some of
the physical things with the downtoxw~, etc. so xve wish you well in tile future. We'd recommend award
to Cronin and I'd be glad to take any questions.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you very, very much David. Any questions? Thank you. So do we need to go
ahead and.
Scott Botcher: Yes. Staff recommends approval of the resolution included in your packet under item
number 5. Obviously the blanks will be filled in now that we have the bids to award and the Mayor xvill
be asked to execnte a nauseating high amount of these for all the different transcripts that the resolution
and such goes into but that would be it.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you very ranch.
Councihnan Senn: Move approval of the resolution awarding sale of $4.255 milliou general obligation
bonds, Series 1999A to Cronin and Company Inc.
Councilwoman Jansen: Second.
Resolution #99-99: Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve the
Resolution awarding the sale of $4,255,000 General Obligation Bonds, Series 1999A to Cronin and
Company, Inc. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
2000 PROSECUTION CONTRACT WITH THE CARVER COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.
Scott Botcher: At the Council's request this was taken off the last agenda to answer some questions that
you guys had wanted answered. Michael Fahey, County Attorney appeared at the work session and
candidly I believe at that point you all asked the questions you had to ask. As with two weeks ago, I
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
think that the methodology for providing prosecution contracts ill tile County is very favorable to all tile
municipalities. You can ask Roger to address that as well if you like but I think Roger's position is the
same and I'd recommend approval of the contract.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank y.m. Any questions from council members? Then may 1 have a motion
please.
Councihnan Senn: I'd like to move approval of the prosecution contract with the County, however with
the stipulation that the County Attorney still follow tip and get the information that was requested as it
relates to case loads and prosecution levels and plea bargaining and all that sort of stuff.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. And a second? That Steve requested, yeah.
Councilwoman Jansen: Second.
Councilman Senn moved, Conncihvoman Jansen seconded to approve the 2000 Prosecution
Contract with the Crower County Attorney's Office with the stipulation that staff provide a
follow-up to the information requested at the work session. All voted in favor and the motion
carried nnanimously.
RECONSIDER CONCEPTUAL PUD REQUEST FOR MIXED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (414
UNITS) CONSISTING OF MANOR HOMES~ COURT HOMES~ VILLAGE HOMES~ AND
TOWNHOMES ON 82.8 ACRES~ AND 3.7 ACRES OF COMMERCIAL USES; LOCATED ON
THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF HIGHWAYS 5 AND 41, ARBORETUM VILLAGE, PULTE
ItOMES.
Mayor Mancino: Staff repm~t please, and Kate if you could in your slowest speech, and we'll go up or
down. Excuse ~ne, l'm signing. Answer as much as you can. I mean I'm sure that Michael and those
that are here lonight know that this xvas tile first time that we heard the questions so we xvill try and
answer those as well as we can. If they're ill written form they're certainly ones that staffcan answer and
e-mail to you too, but let's just start xvith.
Kate Aanenson: It would maybe be helpful just to fi'amc tip why xve're here. This was tip for
reconsideration for conceptual approval ora PUD. A PUD, conceptual approval does require a 4/5 vote.
The staff's position on tile PUD I believe has not changed. While Pulte hasn't been in concurrence on
everything, we're at that point now where we are in concurrence and I'll kind of back up and try to talk
about that.
Mayor Mancino: Wait, excuse me. Can everybody hear? If you can't as she starts, just please raise yonr
hand or move. I don't mean to say that bluntly but maybe come over on this side or something too and
we'll take time if you need to move to make sure you can hear.
Kate Aanenson: Okay. Tile question was, does this require a comprehensive plan and a PUD
amendment? Yes. It does require a land use amendment. We've made that perfectly clear. It appeared
in our staff report. Page 2 that went to the Planning Commission back on September 2nd. It does require
a comprehensive plan in order, there's three zoning options on the north side of the property. This area
north of the fl'ontage road is guided. It's not zoned yet. It is guided Iow density. Cun'ently it is zoned
agricultural. The three zoning options are twin homes, a standard subdivision, 15,000 square foot lots, or
a PUD, which the average lot size is 15,000. This is xvhat is to the north. The Lundgren development is
10
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
a PUD with the average lot size of ! 5. In meeting with the developer, the staff in order to accomplish
other goals as we indicated at the neighborhood meeting and the Planning Commission meeting and the
first time it went to the City Council there were some other competing goals that the city wanted to
accomplish. One is the Bluff Creek Overlay District. Now as was indicated prior when Pulte came in,
this piece of property, that 12 acres was left off. Always it has been the staff's position to include that 12
acres, which is predominantly in the overlay district as a part of this project. Pulte has agreed to do that.
It will be left as open space. It does have development potential. If it is not given a PUD zoning, there's
nowhere else to transfer the density. If we cannot transfer the density, we have to give some
development rights to the property. Otherwise we ~vould have to purchase it because it would be
somehow less than value.
Mayor Mancino: It would be a taking and.
Kate Aanenson: Itl a sorts because we have to give them some reasonable use of the property and a
majority of the property, all except for a very small portion of it is in the overlay district. So it was the
staff's opinion that the best xvay to accomplish that goal would be to transfer the density.
Mayor Mancino: And is the density being transferred exclusively to north of West 78th Street?
Kate Aanenson: 1'11 talk about how those numbers shake out in just a minute but that's a good question.
So xve*ve ahvays stated that it does need a comprehensive plan alnendment because you cannot do cluster
zoning unless you change the comprehensive plan. Having said that, we believe tile numbers are still
consistent with what they could have done otherwise. They have laid out a twin home project and they
have made an application to do a straight subdivision, which would be twin homes. In that t~vin home
project they have demonstrated that they could get 34 units on this piece here and they can get 136 twin
homes on the remaining property north of the frontage road. That's approximately 170 units. If you look
at what this proposal calls for, with again the 56 acres, they are well xvithin that same number. So staff
believes that, I mean they've got 166. This is all data that's available by just adding tip the number of
units that they've always shown in this property, and that again hasn't varied. They're showing 166 and
they're saying with the txvin home project they could get 170. Again, it looks like more because you're
compressing that density. Again we're trying to accomplish preservation of some spaces. Also as a part
of that, the goal of the PUD has always been to preserve some of the natural features on the site. Again,
this PUD accomplishes that. And it's approximately 12 acres of open space that we're preserving. The
property oil the north end of the wetland which is over 2 acres, tile property behind the Markert's and
then this treed area here. So all of that is approximately 12 acres of open space. Now, at this point we
have not calculated the other open space within the project. As this evolves to the next level, we'll come
back with an impervious surface ratio and the like. The 30 acres to the south. Yes, there has been some
ambiguity. Staff has calculated that, it's approximately 32. acres. They had been using 41. The bottom
line is the total number of units has never changed and it's still consistent. We've always said it's
approximately 415. They are in concurrence with that total number of units even though they've shown
higher lmmber of acres. They still, if you took how many units an acre they could get on the southern
side, and multiply that by 8. 32 times 8 gives them 256 units under a straight, come in for a site plan
zoning 8 units all acre. 256 units. What they're coming in with is 252 so again they're under what they
could get under a straight subdivision. So what I'm saying is they haven't got any additional units that
they couldn't have gotten with a straight subdivision. It's more compressed trying to accomplish some of
the.
Mayor Mancino: Excuse me, they're shoxving in the straight subdivision that they could get on that
southern half 324 units.
11
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Kate Aanenson: They don't have 41 units and they're in agreement with that. It's 32. It's 32.
Mayor Mancino: It's 32 acres?
Kate Aanenson: Correct,
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: It's this nnmber, this number here, the 418, that has been a consistent number that they
want to put on the site.
Mayor Mancino: On tile entire site.
Kate Aalle~lson: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: But south of78m Street, everyone understands that it's 32 acres?
Kate Aanenson: Correct. We are in agreement with that.
Mayor Mancino: We won, okay. Good.
Kate Aanenson: So that's...the total number of units that they're requesting, tile total number of units
that staff said is doable has never changed and that's approximately 414. Having said that, we talked
about this when it came before the City Council before that as this evolves and we start measuring
setbacks, some of the units may drop off and it may end up closer to 400, 450. I don't know. We'll have
to see how that all works out.
Mayor Mancino: It isn't going to any more is it?
Kate Aanenson: No. No. The other question that came up was the affordability. There's price ranges
within each of the products and as we indicated last time, we came, we put in there the affordability
index. Now the rental units, the 32 would be affordable. Anything under 128, $128,000 for owner
occupied would meet the Metropolitan Council housing goals. So taking those ranges, right now it's
probably 50/50. Now they've indicated based on the architectural standards that we're looking at, it's
going to drive the price up. So we'll probably end up closer to 60/40. 60% market rate. 40% that would
fall maybe in that, under that.
Mayor Mancino: Affordable.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: So you think at this point, the affordable housing from the PUD that you brought in
originally, that we saw the last time, excuse me can you hear me? Was 68% and that's the number I
came up with too. And now you think it will be close to 40% and, I'm talking approximation.
Kate Aanenson: That's pretty high because they had ranges within that, each of those products. I think
you were taking the ultimate extreme. I think if you went somewhere in the middle, at 50% you'd get.
12
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Well no. You really got the 68% from you know the village homes are 100 to 110 and
you were doing 35% of the village homes. And of the court homes which are 112 to 130 you're doing
25%. And of the rental townhomes, that's 8%. So if you add all those up together it was 68%. So I'm
assuming where the shift will happen as it comes back will be that you'll be doing less of the village
home style.
Kate Aanenson: Not necessarily. I think what my understanding is talking to the applicant is based on
our expectations of architectural standards. That's going to drive up the product price.
Mayor Mancino: So you'll still have the village home style type of product but it will be higher than the
100 to 1107
Kate Aanensolt: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: And you'll also be submitting, based on the LCA, the Metropolitan Livable
Communities Act, their affbrdability for 2000 and 2001, not 1999 because that will be higher too as it
goes up.
Kate Aanenson: Right. It's built in, xvhatever the dollars are, sure.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Kate Aaneuson: If it's built in phases, if it's Phase II, it's built ill 2001, we would use that. So with that,
again the staff's position was, they had the right to so many units. It was our recommendation to do a
PUD becanse we get the control of the architectural standards. We preserve some of the open space and
we're able to do the density transfer, which accomplishes the BluffCreek Overlay District. So with that
we supported the PUD request and again it does require a comprehensive plan because in order to do a
clustering, we don't allow clustering of that type in a low density so we have to change the
comprehensive plan to medium density to accomplish that. They're still under 2 units an acre if you look
at the numbers. They're close to 2 units an acre oil that north side. And the overall again, it's less, little
less than what they've got based on their plan. 5 '& units an acre for tile entire project.
Mayor Mancino: Kate, what's your thinking philosophically, t mean I don't xvant to put you on the spot
here but I kind of am, if you don't mind. Because it was a question that Michael brought tip and that was
on the northern side of, northern half of 78th Street it is you knoxv guided low density. And within the
Iow density zoning you can put single family residential and you can put attached twin home. When we
change the zoning to PUD we are allowing for more product type up there.
Kate Aanenson: No we're not. Let me make that clear. They have demonstrated, they have submitted a
plan with a straight subdivision showing 170 twin homes, okay. And that would include this property,
tile 12 acres and everything north of West 78'h. Their project is coming in with 166. So they haven't
accomplished more. They're clustering.
Mayor Mancino: No, I'm not saying they're getting more units. I'm saying the product type that can go
into that northern area, north of West 78th by changing the zoning to a PUD allows for a diversity of
housing type versus what's in a straight Iow density R-4 zoning.
Kate Aanenson: Correct. And when Pulte first came in they came in with one or two products. They've
worked really hard, they're introducing some other projects and again this is evolving as xve work
13
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
through tile process. Products might shift a little bit but that was one of the other reasons we suppo~ted
the PUD. If it came itl as twin homes, that's what you would have. 170 twin homes.
Mayor Mancino: Sea of twin homes.
Kate Aanenson: Owner occupied has control over their entire lot of the 10,000. With the PUD you've
got the homeowners association and we also felt it was an opportunity to get maintenance of landscaping
through the entire project. Again buffering those. Setting theln back further from the wetland. Those
sort of things. Besides a variety of product. And buffering and things that you can do with a PUD that
you can't when someone owns an individual lot because the way a twin home would be set up is each
person owns their 10,000 sqnare foot lot. Versus there's common ownership of open space through a
hmneowners association.
Mayor Mancino: So right now conceptually, and again it's just conceptual and tile conceptual PUD itl
that area north of West 78~h Street are club homes which are, is that a twin home? ls that a classic twin
Ilome? You've got club homes and manor tlomes. Okay, and the manor homes? And the rental
townhomes? Four units to a buildin/; okay. So they are different than a twin frame.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Are therc ally twin homes at all? Are there any twin homes?
Audience: No there are not.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So we could have you look at putting twin homes in the northern area too.
Having that part ora product mix. Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Again, with a PUD it's one lot. Obviously on this there'd be two lots segmented by the
road. Again what this is accomplishing, xve've got two separate owners on this property. Mills Fleet
Farm and Mr. Savaryn and by putting these under one project, again we get a little bit more control.
Again wo,'king with the density transfer and allowing for greater separation and buffering by bringing it
ill as olde project. And that's again some of the ambiguity of what Mt'. Deanovic's role and the property
on the west side, the 12 acres on the west side of 41. But again they have worked to accomplish, the two
parties have worked together to accomplish tile goal that the staff' had and that was providing that as open
space. So again it's the staff's opinion that it has met the test for the PUD. That it does make sense.
Again gMng you more flexibility. It does require environmental assessment document and we'll be
working to that end if this goes to the next level. I guess if you are, I did provide you conditions of
approval with a motion and I'd be happy to answer any other questions you would have.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Does anyone mind ill ask a few more questions? Or do you want to
go ahead?
Councilwoman Jansen: I'd appreciate asking more questions so go ahead.
Mayor Mancino: Just trying to make it real clear. So just kind of gathering lny thoughts and keep
asking. On the southern 32 acres, we've all come to agree that it's 32 acres. The guiding is for medium
density which is again 4 to 8. Right now. 4 to 8 and they're at 6. So they're kind of in the middle of the
medium density itl that area.
14
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Kate Aanenson: They're probably closer to tile 8, yes.
Mayor Mancino: Pardon?
Kate Aanenson: I think they're closer to the 8 units an acre, yes.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So it is no longer, let's see from a staff report, that it's 6. It's more tike an 8
unit, okay. So they're np at the top of the 8 unit per acre. I remember having the discussion many times
that, at least in Planning Commission of trying to get the densities a little higher and then the northern
part is still 4.2?
Kate Aanenson: Well I calculate that at approxitnately 2 units an acre. That's how you get doxvn to the 6
overall.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Nox~ I'm kind of mixed up. South of \Vest 78th Street there are 252 units in this
conceptual and that's about 8 units per acre.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thc northern part is 166 units which is 4.2 units pet-acre?
Kate Aanenson: It's 56 acres.
Mayor Mancino: And that's fi'om a staff report .... West 78th Street, 166 units is 2 units per acre. 2
units. Gross or net?
Kate Aanenson: I've taken out right-of-way and I've taken out wetlands.
Councihnan IEngel: You're saying the 56 is a net number?
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, well the 87 doesn't represent the entire property. The entire property's 114 so
xve've tried to take out tile wetland.
Mayor Mancino: And right-of-way. Okay. So the southern part meets tile guided and the northern part.
Kate Aanenson: When we updated the comprehensive plan we did indicate, as you mentioned previously
that itl the past we've pushed out' numbers way down to accomplish some of out' goals. We would try to
get towards the maximum with those places. We do not have that many that have the high end of density.
Mayor Mancino: Well it sounds like now north of West 78~ we're kind of low.
Councilwoman Jansen: it's actually 3 units an acre. 56 acres with 170 is 3.
Councilman EngeI: You're leaving the 34 off.
Kate Aanenson: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Mancino: So 3. 3 units an acre, okay. So we're not, we're itl there. We're itl what's guided for
both.
15
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Okay. So if we've got 3 and 8, we'll at some point figure out the average. Do
we have a, the open space areas. The area west of 41. The area above Parcel A which is the Markert
area. And on the north side of the wetland. Is that going to be conservation easements?
Kate Aanenson: Something we'll work out with the applicant. It's our intent to, certainly the treed areas.
I know Park and Rec has worked at that too. They might want to put some trails through these trees. So
that's something that we'll work out at the next level.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So again the units per acre shouldn't surprise anybody. The land uses are
mixed residential and commercial. Kate can you talk a little bit about the, and we haven't talked about
this at all, the 3.7 acres which is the commercial area. I'm assuming there you're thinking of daycare
facilities, small scale health services, professional offices, neighborhood oriented retail.
Kate Aa~lenso~l: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: Things like that.
Kate Aanenson: Small scale, correct.
Mayor Mancino: Small scale. No gas stations.
Kate Aanenson: That's something as we put the PUD together and we'll talk not only about uses but
we'll talk about architectural standards that are residential in character.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Okay. More questions?
Councilwoman Jansen: And actually tagging on in tile direction that you were going with that northern
section. With that currently being zoned for single family alld wanting to maybe.
Mayor Mancino: No, zoned low density.
Councilwoman Jansen: Low density single family. If along the borders, because that does abut single
family development to the north, and to the east. When I xvas in working with staffon Wednesday and
we were kind of clarifying this medium versus low. We had the discussion of possibly being able to do
the two borders in a low density single family type of construction which goes to what you were saying
as far as could we introduce twin homes into the project and if~ve did that along the borders, which are
bordering those other properties that are currently single family, it's really in the same concept as your
Walnut Grove that you keep pointing out.
Mayor Manciuo: We didn't have a wetland.
Councilwoman Jansen: They didn't have a wetland. But the northern part of that property was also
originally guided as low density single family. So there was a stepping up as you moved up the property,
and thinking if we could execute that same concept here, what I was hearing Mr. Ryan addressing, not
just the units. If our units are low density, that's great and we do have the right number of units. There
seems to be a concern in the actual product mix with the townholnes. So again just looking at those
16
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
border properties, if it can step in so that we're doing your twin homes along the borders and then we're
progressing down into the higher density or the mixed development. That might.
Mayor Mancino: We might ask them to look at that. To do the bordering of the wetlands with a twin
home concept product.
Scott Botcher: Just remember that when you do, you're considering a general concept plan. I mean I
think you can certainly give that to them as guidance, but it's not one of the things identified in 2517 as
something, not a condition. I'm missing the word I'm thinking of but as an approvable criteria for a
general concept plan. So just so you can communicate that to them. I know you talked, when you and I
and Kate met we talked about that side piece.
Councilwoman Jansen: Right.
Scott Botcher: It doesn't seem to fit the 6 items in 2517A.
Councilwoman Jansen: Well it's going to density and land use, correct?
Scott Botcher: But if you have overall and net, you're getting into site planning at that point. A little
bit. I mean certainly you can communicate to them. l'm just gMng you a caution at this point. You're
starting to=,,et into the details.
Mayor Mancino: Into the details.
Councilwoman Jansen: Someone asked you a question, because the other thing that arose fi'om our
conversation oil Wednesday along these lines was that in order to construct this concept plan the wa), it
is, with the town homes on the north side, we will be rezoning the underlying zoning will need to be
changed fi'om Iow density to medium density in order to accomplish that, correct Roger?
Kate Aanenson: It's not zoned low density right l]OXV.
Roger Knutson: That's tile guiding. Tile guiding would be changed. Tile zoning will be changed if this
is approved to PUD. That will be the zoning.
Kate Aanenson: Right. It's A2.
Councilwoman Jansen: Okay, so we change the underlying guiding that now says that it would be single
family. Low density.
Roger Knutson: You'd change that.
Councilwoman Jansen: And we have that as an option as to whether we're changing north of the
fi'ontage road? Or not?
Kate AallellSOll: Yes.
Roger Knutson: Yes. That's within your discretion.
17
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. Because I guess that's where I'm going with my thought is if we are
going to be changing the guiding on that particular piece of property, we sbouid be maybe considering
that now versus just propelling forward into changing the whole northern part of the frontage to medium
density.
Kate Aanenson: My understanding of the question she asked me earlier was could you leave a strip of
low density and my recommendation is through the PUD you can accomplish the same goal by either
adding additional landscaping, greater setback or trying to put some units oft~vin homes adjacent to that
and we could accomplish it through the PUD.
Mayor Mancino: Accomplish that through tile PUD.
Councilwoman Jansen: Right. Yeah, and that was where I was going. I wasn't meaning that we would.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and I understand that that's your concern and Pulte I think is willing to xvork on
that.
Mayor Mancino: Just go tbrward because I think we can accomplish that in tile PUD.
Kate Aancnson: Right.
Councilwoman Jansen: l jus! want to make sure that we were communicating that.
Kate Aailenson: Yes.
Roger Knutson: It's very difficult to draw those lines on a map through a parcel to save the last 100 feet
ora large parcel. You can argue about it later where exactly it is. It's better if you do the guiding on a
parcel b> parcel basis. The whole parcel one way or tile other, if you cnn.
Councilwoman Jansen: Understood.
Mayor Mancino: Btlt yot~ cal~.
Councilxvoman ,lansen: I think I xvas communicating badly what I was trying to suggest and that's if the
residents are concerned about that northern fl'ontage, north of tile fi'ontage road being changed to medium
density. If xve're saying xve're going to eucourage or guide, at least the border is to relnain the low
density, then maybe we're accomplishing that goal.
Roger Knutson: You can accomplish that within the PUD.
Mayor Mancino: We can accomplish that in tile PUD. We can talk about he transition.
Councilwoman Jansen: Yep. l just wanted to make sure that maybe that was what we were
communicating at this point before xve continue to move forxvard with townhomes along the bordering
properties.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any other questions? Or comments.
18
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Councilwoman Jansen: Tile other thing that we did establish on Wednesday, and Roger correct me if I'm
saying this wrong, was that it wouldn't hurt to put a condition in here that does reference that we're still
following the Highway 5 Corridor Ordinance and the Bluff Creek Ordinance.
Roger Knutson: That'd be appropriate if that's what you want.
Councilwoman Jansen: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. The last, anything else Linda?
Councilwoman Jansen: No.
Mayor Mancino: The last thing that I just want to make sure that we do, I want to say this conceptually
is that 1 want to have a clear statement when we get to preliminary on hoxv this is helping us meet our
LCA goals, And I also xvant to make sure that we don't overload one particular project with affordable
housing. That we disperse it as we've looked at all of our other projects, that we do a good dispersion and
that we don't concentrate or don't try and make up our goals ill one area. So conceptually you know
where l'm going, etc on that. We're not going to put it all in one particular project, and I think we really
need to look at that. So that's, and one of mine was the diversity of housing type for different income
levels. And there could be more diversity in here. 1 think that everything else is really in the staff report
and in the conditions of approval. The only thing that I always keep coming back to is we want to build
neighborhoods. We want to build neighborhoods of front porches, not garage scape. We want people
out relating to each other. Enjoying the outside. Using the amenity of the wetlands. I'll be quiet now
and ask for a motion. ! hope we've ~nade and pulled everything pretty close on what we're looking for.
So tile motion again is to consider conceptual, to approve conceptual PUD request roi' mixed housing
development, 414 units and we know that may change, consisting of manor homes, court homes, village
holnes, and townhomes on 82.8 acres and 3.7 acres of commercial uses. And obviously we've also asked
for looking at the twin home concept and how that could make a good transition.
Councilman Senn: Is that a motion?
Mayor Mancino: So with that, >'es. Okay, so that's tile nlotion. With everfthing else that we've talked
about, with the conditions of approval in the October 20"' memorandum that has tile recommendations 1
through 36. Is there a second to tile motion?
Councilman Senn: Second.
Councilwoman Jansen: May I ask a question on the motion? Is that then also including the condition of
the two overlay districts being added to the list of conditions or do those get added when we get farther
down the line?
Scott Botcher: Do it now if you like.
Mayor Mancino: Is that a friendly amendment? Okay, certainly will.
Councilwoman Jansen: And I don't know if it would be in the form of a friendly amendment if we're
also stipulating the single family residential type units around the borders.
Councihnan Engel: I think that may be too detailed.
19
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Scott Botcher: That's not conceptual.
Mayor Mancino: That's not conceptual. I mean I think we've kind of talked about transition and twin
homes doing. I just talked about that as part of the condition.
Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. I just want to make sure that that's clearly communicated.
Mayor Mancino: 1 thought I had done that. Okay, I accept your first friendly amendment.
Mayor Mancino moved, Councilman Senn seconded to approve the Conceptual Planned Unit
Development #99-2 for Arboretum Village and a Comprehensive Land Use Plan Amendment
subject to the following conditions:
Submit soils report to the Inspections Division. This should be done prior to issuance of any
building permits.
2. Submit streets names to the Building Department, for review prior to final plat approval.
o
The applicant will need to develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the
City's Best Management Prace Handbook and the Surface Water Management Plan requirements
for new developments. The plan shall be submitted to the City for review and formal approval in
conjunction with the final plat submittal.
All utility and street improvements shall be constructed in accordance with the latest edition of the
City's Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. Detailed street and utility plans and
specifications shall be submitted for staff review and City Council approval. The utility systems,
upon completion, will be owned and maintained by' the City. Tile private streets shall be
constructed to support 7 ton per axle design weight in accordance xvith City Code 20-1118 "design
of parking stalls and drive aisles". The private streets shall be located in a strip of property or
easement 40 feet wide.
Wetland buffer areas shall be surveyed and staked in accordance with the City's wetland
ordinance. The City xvill provide wetland buffer edge signs for tile applicant to install after the
utilities have been completed. The applicant shall pay the city $20 per sign.
The applicant shall provide detailed storm sewer calculations for 10 year and 100 year storm events
and provide ponding calculations for stormxvater quality/quantity ponds in accordance with the
City's Surface Water Management Plan for the City Engineer to review and approve. The
applicant shall provide detailed pre-developed and post-developed stormwater calculations for 100
year storm events and norlnal water level and high water level calculations in existing basins,
created basins, and/or creeks. Individual storm sewer calculations between each catch basin
segment will also be required to determine if sufficient catch basins are being utilized. In addition,
water quality ponding design calculations shall be based on Walker's Pondnet model. Stormwater
ponds must have side slopes of 10:1 for the first 10 feet at the normal water level and no more than
3:1 thereafter or 4:1 throughout for safety purposes.
The applicant shall enter into a PUD agreement/development contract with the City and provide the
necessary financial security to guarantee compliance with the terms of the development contract.
20
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
11.
12.
13.
14.
I5.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies, i.e.
Watershed District, Metropolitan Environmental Service Commission, Health Department,
Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, and Minnesota
Department of Transportation and comply with their conditions of approval.
Fire hydrants shall be incorporated per the Fire Marshal's recommendations.
The applicant shall include a drain tile system behind the curbs to convey sump pump discharge
fi'om units not adjacent to ponds or wetlands.
The appropriate drainage and utility easements shall be dedicated on the final plat for all utilities
and ponding areas lying outside the right-of-way. The easement width shall be a minimum of 20
feet wide. Consideration should also be given for access for maintenance of the pondiug areas.
The applicant shall incorporate berming into the plans adjacent to West 78~h Street. TH 41 and TH
5 per city code. Additional buffering/screening should also be considered along TH 5 and TH 41
for noise abatement. No berming or landscaping will be alloxved within the right-of-way except
landscaping along the fi'ontage road in accordance with the Trunk Highxvay 5 Corridor Study.
The lowest floor or opening elevation of all bnildings shall be a minimnm of 2 feet above tile 100
year high water level of adjacent ponds, wetlands or creeks.
If importing or exporting material for development site grading is necessary, the applicant will be
required to supply tile City with detailed haul routes and traffic control plans for reviexv and
approval.
The appl cant/property oxvner shall petition tile city for sanitary sewer service.
The applicant shall report to tile City Engineer tile location of an>.' drain tiles found during
construction and shall relocate or abandon tile drain tile as directed by the City Engineer.
Direct access to all lots shall be restricted to the interior streets and not onto West 78th Street, TH
41 and TH 5. Access to the commercial parcel may be limited to a right in/right out along Century
Bird and a hill shared access offWest 78th Street with tile parcel to tile east. The exact location of
tile access points are subject to City and MnDOT review at time of site plan review. Cross access
agreement will be required at tilne of final platting.
Site grades adjacent to West 78th Street, Century Blvd, TH 41 and TH 5 shall be compatible with
the future widening of Trunk Highway 5 project.
Provide a public street and sidewal 'k/trail system south of\Vest 78'h Street which will loop back out
to West 78th Street. Sidewal 'k/trails shall also be provided along the public streets no,nth of West
78th Street. Eliminate the trails along the wetland in the easterly portion of the site. Provide tail
connections to TH 5 trail and future trail connection to TH 41 between West 78th Street and TH 5.
Landscaped median islands may be permitted within the public streets contingent upon tile
developer entering into an encroachment agreement with the city and the medians do not pose a
traffic safety issue.
21
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
21. Future extension of the north/south street is not needed. Shorten street to minimize impacts to
wetlands and trees provide cul-de-sac.
22. Each housing area shall become a neighborhood with some distinct characteristics with more
specifics on the material being used.
23.
Tile co~nmercial development needs to be further defined with neighborhood uses only. This too
needs to have materials that are residential in nature. Neighborhood uses are those goods
necessary to ~neet daily needs.
24. A road be tied into the two access points oil West 78th Street to give a better sense of order.
25. The applicant shall be required to maintain these preserved areas when tile preliminary plans are
sublnitted.
26. Criteria must be established to determine which wetland classification best suits this area before a
setback can be established.
27. Preservation of the wood lots on the property.
28. Construction of the iuterior trails as association connectors at tile applicant's expense.
29. Construction of the wetland trail as a comprehensive trail segment with appropriate public
easements being granted and trail dedication dollars used for construction.
30. Plans submitted for the manor home and rental Iownhouse totlot prior to approval.
31. The totlot/play area in the cOurt homes be expanded to 2 to 2 ½ acres in size be centrally located
and be connected to appropriate pedestrian routes.
32. A more creative approach in dealing with the same or less density south oflhe fi'ontage road but
maintaining affordability.
33. A creative approach to the intersection of Highways 5 and 41 in terms of the ponding, aesthetic,
attractiveness to tie into the Arboretun~ and the feel of Chanhassen.
34. The Planning Commission is looking for more connec'tivity itl terms of pathways, green spaces, and
playground areas in tile plan.
35. More detailed vision of the commercial area.
36. Preparation of Environmental Assessment.
37. Comply xvith tile requirements of the Highway 5 Corridor Study and tile Bluff Creek Overlay
District.
All voted in favor, except Councilman Labatt who opposed, and tile motion carried ~vith a vote of 4
to 1.
22
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Mayor Mancino: The motion carries 4/5 for the conceptual PUD.
APPROVAL OF 2000 CONTRACT FOR POLICE SERVICES.
Roger Knutson: ...proposed addendum to the contract for police services which brings us into the
transition period of bringing a sergeant on board and the additional services. I believe, ifI remember
right it was Option B. If I've got my numbers, option right. And this would effectuate that. And there
are two loose ends. Couple inventories that have to be provided, A and B. You can do that one or txvo
ways. You can, what I would suggest is actually that to staff's discretion. To fill in those inventories and
provide the copies to you. We're in a bit of a hurry to get this done before the first of the year because
we want to continue with our policing contract after tile first of the year and so this should be in place.
Scott Botcher: Also our expectations to add the performance measures that we've all talked about. We
have accumulated a number of performance measures. I think we've met with the County twice now on
the performance measures to be added. One of the issues is, and we've talked about this since the
sumlner, we don't really have a baseline yet and candidly the baseline that we're going to have to
establish is going to be identified through, not 2000 and probably starting in 2001 but by the time we get
to 2002 and 2003, you'll have 3'our baseline and performance in Chanhassen measured the way you want
it to be measured. Right now we have, we can pull criteria and when Mike Fahey was in the work
session we talked about flagging. He has the ability to flag certain citations and certain things that police
officers do within a judicial system that ill the past hasn't been flagged and we can then measure those.
Measure you know plea bargains, measure whatever happens to those in a more sane manner because as
he said, the software that you have right now just simply doesn't track it in a very good fashion. Those
performance measures will be brought back to you as a second addendum to this agreement. Beyond, I
mean the inventory quite candidly is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. We don't have a
huge police department where we're trying to get rid of stuff. We've got a couple cars and we've got the
list of stuff that I showed you earlier. That's really not a lot of stuff. But the performance measure and
Roger will attest to, we've indicated to Bud and to the County representatives is a very, very important
issue to the City of Chanhassen. And obviously how you interpret the data that you establish is going to
be different from city to city. And xve get on the whole discussion of staffs and everything else but
you're all bright people and you all know that staffs can say two things at one time.
Roger Knutson: It's virtually impossible to compare numbers fi'om community to community because
everyone does it differently.
Scott Botcher: Also we think there's probably some benefit, and I think I sent you an e-mail on this.
Everybody except roi' Mark. If there are criteria that you look for, or you would like to look for in this
command sergeant position, please e-mail those to me. It's thought that certainly we could tap the
resources and tile experience of the sergeant in developing, utilizing and interpreting tile data, the
performance measure data that we're going to put into the contract so obviously that means, personally I
know what that means to me in terms of cognitive ability that I want to see in the individual. But you all
may also have some thing that you want to see in the individual in terms of personality traits and
experience and that sort of stuff.
Roger Knutson: Last item, I have amended paragraph 2 pursuant to our discussion at the work session by
adding a sentence that says, 1 can read it. The County shall provide the municipality a month to report on
actual contract hours. So if there is any deviation for whatever reason, they provide you a monthly
report. You don't get something at the end of the year and say whoops. What a surprise.
23
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Great.
Scott Botcher: Also, you know where Bob Z is coming in now to the council meetings. The command
sergeant will be the person coming into the council meetings.
Councilman Senn: Wouldn't it be nice to move those to work sessions.
Scott Botcher: We were just trying it. I mean if you guys want to move it, just let us know.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Ally other questions? Any questions? Any comments?
Councilman Labatt: No, the only comment that I'm going to make is that I'm disappointed that...I asked
tbr the numbers for 1998 and 99 have not been turned over yet by the Sheriff. I think four weeks is long
enough to provide those xvhen he said he had them ah'eady on file so.
Scott Botcher: And I xvill call him tomorrow.
Mayor Mancino: I'm assuming the work plan and performance measurements will be completed by tile
first quarter of 2000?
Scott Botcher: Yep, that's our goal.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thanks.
Councilman Senn: I'll move approval of the contract with the modification as stipulated by City
Attorney and l'll give staffthe atttbority to resolve Exhibit A and B with any equipment which the
sherifff's office is not taking to be you know disposed of or whatever and that we, that tile contract leave
open tllen future second amendment.
Scott Botcher: It doesn't even have to. We'll bring it back.
Councihnan Senn: Ah'ight. Okay, but the second alnendment which deals with performance measures
xvill be back to the council before March 31,2000.
Scott Botcher: That's our goal, yes.
Councihnan Senn: That's it.
Councilwoman Jansen: Second.
Councilman Senn moved, Councihvoman Jansen seconded to approve the 2000 Contract for Police
Services as amended by the CiD' Attorney to add the sentence, "The County shall provide the
municipality a month to report on actual contract hours.", and directing staff to resolve Exhibits A
and B and bringing back to City Council the second amendment which deals with performance
measures before March 31, 2000. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
CORRESPONDENCE DISCUSSION.
24
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Any questions on correspondence?
Councihnan Senn: I had a couple quick ones. I wanted...there was a letter in here that was attached to
our packets on the tax increment financing grant which I wanted to thank and commend staff on. There
were 16 applications of which there were 7 awards totally about $1.3 million of which we got $1,147,000
to make up our difference so say job well done. Let's see here.
Mayor Mancino: What a great week last week was. I'll tell you. Between that, between the bond rating
and just heck of a great week last week.
Councihnan Senn: I wanted to, if everybody in the council hasn't, I xvould like you to take a real close
look at the monthly activity report from Carver County public works. You will notice the rather apparent
lack of Chanhassen projects in most of the list. So you can see where your county tax dollars are going.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Mayor Mancino: He's building up to something tonight. Okay, where's he going. You didn't see the
Poxvers Boulevard r,,',p;~ eing?
Councilman Senn: l just really want people to pay attention.
Scott Botcher: I think this park patrol Lake Minnewashta Regional Park, dogs off' leash. We're in there.
That's page number whatever page that is.
Mayor Mancino: 1 do want you to know, which scares me to death. I sort of saw tire same thing. Any
other comments?
Councilman Senn: Hang on one sec. Sorry.
Mayor Mancino: And I'm sorry, I did not read tlre definition of sex offender requirement information ),et
so. The article on reserves was great. Yeah, theory vs. practice. I thought that was excellent because we
were alxvays told not to put a contingency fund together. Anyway.
Councilman Senn: I thought ! had one more but I can't find it.
Mayor Mancino: Steve, you had some things?
Councilman Labatt: No...
Councihnan Engel: I have something...that just came up tollight as a result of tiffs neighborhood, north
of Pulte. They're confused and I think it's because they've got too many data points to give them
information. And I'm not saying we stop contact with them but I am saying we concentrate the contact,
especially fi'om an informational and a statistical and a data perspective, to one person. They are
thorougllly confl~sed now, They're getting answers fi'om too many people. Let me finish. Kate
Aanenson should be that person. She's a professional. We pay her to do that. If they're confused with
what Kate has to say, have them bring it to Scott and if it needs to come back to Council, then I think xve
should do it. But right now, Kate has clearly stated it's 114 gross acres, 86 or 88 of which is net. I don't
see where tile confitsion comes fi'om after that. Where's the other numbers coining from?
Mayor Mancino: Well it's always hard when you're at conceptual too.
25
City Couucil Meeting - November 22, 1999
Councihnan Engel: Let's stick to what Kate says. If we've got a problem with that, let's take it up with
her and let's focus on her for passing this data out.
Scott Botcher: ... internally and those of you, and I know Linda's come in to meet with us and Todd and
whatever. When we do a memo on the Pulte stuff, Kate and I do them together and there is sort of single,
I know Linda's been utilizing the single source, but I mean another thing you have to realize is that even
if we provide a single source of information, once you let it go out there you do lose control a little bit. I
mean people are going to interpret it in some ways in ways that they want to. I mean that's just human
nature. We all are going to do that. Not just this neighborhood. We all do that.
Councilwoman Jausen: And the confusion that Kate is trying to identify here is that there's a
discrepancy between Pulte's numbers and staff's numbers and that's where the neighbors are getting
coufilsed. That Pulte has one set of numbers in the staff packet in their memo and then Kate has her
numbers in there so they're trying to get that discrepancy clarified and that was part of what Kate and
Pulte were eveu talking about tonight. Trying to get the 41 and the 30 clarified.
Scott Botcher: For purposes tbr...and I guess ifI were you all, I'd, I mean I'm sort of with Mark's that
says, Kate is the professional iu this thing. And Pulte, I agree. Pulte's numbers would confuse any
neighborhood.
Councihnan Engel: Yeah, their numbers don't count as far as l'm concerned. Kate's numbers are what
eoullt.
Scott Botcher: So I mean I think your point's well taken. I think a number of these folks, Council
members and neighbors alike are doing that. But we still have some of that residual confusion out there
that's still bouncing around.
Councihnan Engel: It would be helpful though to tell them fi'om now on, I mean like you say, Pulte's
numbers, and l'm not trying to. I'm not disrespect them. They don't count. Kate's numbers count...
Scott Botcher: And l'm trying to communicate xvith some of the key leaders so to speak in the
ueighborh0od saying listen, if you need to know something, you need to ask me. No disrespect to
anybody else. Call me up. Kate and I will sit down. We're more than happy to hit speaker on lhe phone
and talk to you. And I have had leugthy conversations with some of the neighbors. Ill don't know the
auswer I go get Kate but I think that's happened, l just thiuk it's tardy.
Mayor Mancino: Well and I would just like to add that I do thiuk it will continue to happen and we
probably ueed to talk about this a little bit more at a work session. Especially xvhen you have a rezoniug
to a PUD so.
Scott Botcher: This is for whatever it's xvorth, I know I shared this with Linda... This is a tough .PUD to
cut your teeth on as a first really PUD that you do. You know and some of you have more experience
than others but this is. You're going to have, as I told Linda, you know you're going to have everything
in here that a PUD could possibly probably entail and for all of you, I don't know what experience Mark
and Mark and Nancy have, but this is one that's going to have a lot of twists and turns to it.
Councilmau Engel: We're months from...
26
City Council Meeting - November 22, 1999
Scott Botcher: And so this, you know.
Councilman Senn: The baby's only starting to take form. You're far from birth.
Councihnan Engel: We are months.
Scott Botcher: You're going to be running this specific plan back and forth, it could be a year.
Councilman Engel: I no doubt...before this gets approved.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you, the meeting is closed.
Scott Botcher: Oh 1 had a couple things, just for what it's worth. NSP. I did talk to NSP. They are
going to have Y2K staffing the uight of the 31st, if anybody cares. And they are painting all the high
power transmission liues in Eden Prairie and Chan next year. Those blue oues that have paint peeling.
... look out your windows you can see uicely, newly painted poles. It's just something, they asked when I
met with them, they said what can we do better? I said paiut your damn poles. They called back and said
we're going to paint them uext year in 2000 in Edeu Prairie and Chan. Those blue high tension power
poles.
Mayor Mancino: On Highway 5.
Mayor Mancino adjourned the City Council meeting at 8:05 p.~n.
Submitted by Scott Botcher
City Manager
Prepared by Naun Opheim
27
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 17, 1999
Chairman Joyce called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Matt Burton, LuAnn Sidney, Kevin Joyce, Ladd Conrad, Deb Kind
and Alison Blackowiak
MEMBERS ABSENT: Craig Peterson
STAFF PRESENT: Bob Generous, Senior Planner; and Dave Hempel, Assistant City Engineer
PUBLIC HEARING:
REQUEST FOR SUBDIVISION APPROVAL TO CREATE TWO LOTS ON A 1.47
ACRE LAKESHORE PARCEL ZONED RSF~ AND LOCATED AT 6665 HORSESHOE
CURVE~ SANDY POINT~ JOHN AND SANDRA CUNNINGHAM.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Christa & Nicholas Vassallo
Sandra & John Cunningham
Ray Brozovich
7018 Cheyem~e Trail
6665 Horseshoe Curve
6609 Horseshoe Curve
Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item.
Joyce: Any questions for Bob at this time?
Conrad: Chairman, just one.
subdivision ordinance Bob?
neighborhood?
The recommendation for the asphalt drive. Is that a function of the
What's our standard for this type of development and this type of
Hempel: Mr. Chairman, maybe I can address that. Any new urban development within the urban
service area we require a hard surface driveway to access the residence. In this neighborhood
there is a mixture of gravel driveways and paved driveways. We felt that it should be brought up
to current ordinance standards with paved driveways.
Conrad: Let me take on, there's one tree that goes over. It's a very big tree so the question in my
mind is, and I know the Forester's been there. What's more positive for the survival of that tree?
As I looked at it, I'm not sure runoff is an'issue there but I think survival of the tree is, is one
surface. The question is, is one surface a gravel versus asphalt better for that tree? Are we
hurting it by putting asphalt over it because it is a huge, huge tree. What's our best guess on
something like that?
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Hempel: I'd have to defer that to the forester to answer but I would think construction traffic
alone building a new home in there would be the most detrimental to the tree. Long term versus
asphalt versus gravel.
Generous: Mr. Chairman, I did discuss this with Jill as part of our review and she said that she
didn't anticipate that the installation of the driveway would kill the tree. We think that it's, as
long, provided we can get the tree protection fencing up and keep the construction activity off the
critical root zone, a majority of that should survive.
Conrad: Mr. Chairman, just one more on this one. So what did they do during construction that
keeps that tree alive? Keep it Off the root system? Keep heavy stuff.
Hempel: Exactly. We require the tree protection fencing around it so that's what.
Conrad: Okay.
Joyce: Any other questions for staff?.
Kind: Yes Mr. Chairman. Bob, on condition 17 you talk about no shoreline vegetation removal
will be allowed for access or a view to Lotus Lake. But our shorelahd ordinance, management
ordinance does allow for removal of some vegetation to create a view and also for access like
stairs or lifts, that sort of thing. Could you speak to that a little bit?
Generous: That specific language would preclude any of that.
Kind: And the reasons are?
Generous: Well they felt again the Forester reviewed this. She believed that they had sufficient
ability to access the lake without taking that out and views are not an issue. They have views to
either side.
Kind: I guess my question would be getting down, like if they had a boat down at the lake. How
do they get down there without having stairs? You need to clear some vegetation to get stairs or
a path or something like that. Would this preclude that?
Generous: Preclude putting in the stairway, yes. If any vegetation had to be cleared.
Kind: And vegetation includes scrub brushy?
Generous: Any vegetation.
Kind: Vegetation is vegetation.
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Generous: Understory and trees. I think the primary concern is for the overstory trees but the
way it's currently written it would include the understory stuff. The brush.
Kind: It seems reasonable to me that they should be able to get access to the shore. I'll wait to
hear from the applicant on that. That's all for now.
Joyce: Any other questions at this time for staff?. I just have one Bob. Recommendation number
9, or condition number 9. Is a recommendation obviously. How strongly are we, the City
looking at that? I just think that they have a pad there that they're just trying to lower a house
and even jockeying it 5 feet here or there, you know it's, you don't have that much room.
Generous: Well there is a little bit of ability to shift it towards the northeast. We're not sure how
much additional preservation. Our main concern was the tree preservation along the property
line. And looking at this I'm not sure we're going to get a lot of it. The applicant has discussed
this with me and his intention is to revegetate that area.
Joyce: So maybe we should wait for that. I just thought I'd bring that up. But so we're saying
that the driveway is part of the City Code Dave, but the condition 9 is kind of just best of all
world type of situation.
Generous: Make sure they look at it. There's no real teeth in the way it's written.
Joyce: Okay. Then at this time if the applicant would like to address the Planning Commission
at this time, please step forward and state your name and address.
John Cunningham: My name is John Cunningham. I live at 6665 Horseshoe Curve. The other
applicant is my wife Sandra. We have lived, we bought this lot in 1968 so we've lived there
quite a while. We're very happy living there. At a certain point we decided that maybe we
needed a different house for our present needs and our first idea was if it would be possible to
split the lot we could satisfy both situations. Found the old plot that the prior owner had left us
and we went into City Hall and we first met with Cindy and she was extremely helpful and she's
the one that showed us how to use the cross access and the easement to get to the back part of the
lot because the lot, as you can see, it's a triangular shaped lot. It doesn't break itself into two...
It's much easier to do it on the way it shows on there. And about this same time om' daughter
decided perhaps she would buy our house so the whole thing began to fall together for us. We
hired Scholl and Madsen to do a survey and at this point they made a mistaken and they thought
it would be a simple metes and bounds situation which of course didn't prove to be the situation.
We also began to have meetings with Bob Generous and he was most helpful in showing us how
the property lines could change angles so that the houses would have their own, totally their own
view. Turning like this... And that also was very positive for us that we could do that because
we really do not want to impact the lot any more than we absolutely had to. And obviously
putting a house there is going to change things but we wanted to keep that to a very minimum.
We talked to him about the various setbacks that are required and we've satisfied all those.
About this time the survey had a meeting with the City Hall and suddenly the survey cost tripled
and Sanra and I became developers, which was okay. We met again with Bob to check about the
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
positions and the setbacks and everything looked okay so we went ahead with the complex
survey and we turned our materials in by the deadline and got the staff report last Friday.
Generally things looked fine to us. They asked us to raise the house a half foot which we already
did. We called the Schoell and Madsen and told them to put that into position. The request to
consider moving the house 10 feet north is a little more of a problem to us. We had considered it
over the last 6 months we've probably considered every possible angle and position in that
triangle because it is rather limiting and we really feel that clearly this to be the best position for
the house for several reasons. It keeps the house most completely out of the sight lines of the
existing house. Pulls it back as far as it can go and we think the best situation for the two houses
existing on the same, in the same area. In terms of moving the house 10 feet north, the second
reason why we think it's a bad idea is if you take 10 feet away from that triangle, that building
triangle, you really cut down the amount of space in the house. The amount of potential space in
the house. The shape that you see up there is a 1,600 to 1,700 square foot house with a two car
garage. There's not room for a three car garage and a screened porch. Our intent is to create a
walkout basement for future bedroom space for families that would come along after us. This is
not a big house and the reduction of 10 feet times the building triangle creates a much more
difficult building pad. The building pad does come to a point and when you take that 10 feet
away it really comes to a point very short, in a very short period of distance. The idea of...from
the east creates a new set of angles. It doesn't really pick up much and an odd shape like that is
difficult to design around. And the other thing that happens when you move the plan to the north
is it leaves room on the east end almost only for a garage. There's not, we have it the way the
plan is set up now, and I can show that to you in a minute. We have a garage and a front entry on
that side so when you drive in from the road you come up to the garage and then there's a nice
front entry and we think it's really very nicely designed. When you start moving it you run out of
space to put that front entry on the same end as the garage. Now reacting to the reason of moving
to minimize impacts to existing vegetation. There are two trees which I'll mention in a moment.
The only other existing vegetation on our side is a hedge and that particular hedge was there
when we moved in. It's an important hedge to us and as I'm sure it's an important hedge to the
neighbor and we certainly would plan to keep it. It provides cover in the summer and should it
be damaged in construction I would certainly replace it. I don't see any problem with it's roots
because I don't think it has that big of a root area. There were some significant maples
mentioned in the report. I couldn't find those. Maybe something was mismarked or something
but looking at the trees in the house area, starting at the east end. This tree right here, these are
oaks and they're pretty good sized oaks. They're about 20 feet from the corner of the garage and
this is a slab garage here. Across from these. At any rate, there's 20 feet there and I'm hoping
probably enough space. There is a dutch elm here. I don't know how it survived the dutch elm
disease but it did. It's growing underneath the canopy. There's a number of trees on the other
side of the property line that really, that I propose to take that tree out which is about a 9 inch.
Then if you move here there's a fir tree. It too has problems because it gets no light from the
south side so there's no branches whatsoever on the south side of it and I don't see much
problem in taking it out. Other than that the surveyor...maple tree that's right in here. I can't, I
disagree with it and my aim is to try to do the garage turn around to save that tree. If we can't
we'll take it out. But other than that we don't intend to take out any other trees and don't think
we have to. I share the same concern as others do about this place where the road goes between
these trees. Obviously we're going to try to save that oak...whatever is required to protect it. I
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
would assume that...building phase that that driveway would be gravel. So like I say, we're just
going to do the best we can to save that tree. Well then the existing vegetation that was there
along here is pretty well scrub vegetation. It's stuff that has come up by itself through the years..
That end of our yard has never really been a place where we've tried to grow anything specific.
We just let it be the way it was. We could get some hostas and some ferns to grow in there but
that's about it because there's a lot of oak trees back in here that form, that shade that area so our
intent is to, and we went over it with Halla Nursery. Once we picked out, once we get the
construction part done here we propose to put in here a bunch of plantings that tolerate shade and
we have a planting design that we thought. At any rate, we've done some planting to go along
here. That includes the existing trees that...believe will stay there. Obviously we would replace
anything damaged or caused problem by the construction. There is that one maple that we
certainly would lose in the driveway area that I'm going to try to save if we move the house.
That would be a goner. There are 27 hardwoods on the lot. You don't see all of them on that
plan because a lot of them didn't impact the canopy and they're offdown on the point. So we're
only taking two possibly three trees out. I thought that was a pretty good placement of the house
on the lot in terms of the trees. For these reasons I believe after doing and ask for consideration,
the best situation because of the house position, superior design possibilities and improvement in
vegetation, is to have the house positioned which satisfies all city requirements as it was
originally presented. I would echo the concern about the crushed rock driveway. I know I'm in a
minority but I believe a crushed rock driveway that is kept up is a more natural looking surface
than pavement or cement. I have on a number of occasions observed my driveway during storms.
It soaks up most rain and then gully washes, the drainage crosses at the low point. This driveway
has been through two 100 year rains, which I don't know if you people were all here when we
had those but we had two 100 year rains. I don't, this isn't a big deal to me and I'll pave the
driveway. The new driveway will even have less slope than my present one. I suspect
sometimes it has more to do with people neglecting the upkeep on crushed rock. It needs to be
surfaced every once in a while with new rocks and weeds kept out of it. I'll just show you maybe
quickly the exterior of the house. This would be the front that you would see from the road as
you're coming in. We tried very hard to make that side of the house attractive but also, this was
what I was talking about. If you took 10 feet away from here, that would... I thank you for your
consideration and I can answer any questions that I'm capable of answering I guess.
Joyce: Commission have any questions for the applicant? Thank you.
Kind: Mr. Chairman, I do. Mr. Cunningham, sorry. I do have a question for you. On condition
number 17, you did not speak to that as far as access to the lake. Would you like to be able to get
down there?
John Cunningham: I think I understand what, I can, the main thing I think with...
Kind: That's what I heard Bob say.
Generous: You mean clear vegetation.
John Cunningham: No, I wouldn't intend to clear it.
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Kind: Even scrub vegetation.
John Cunningham: .. oI just assume, as far as I was concerned, I never...but I just assumed that I
would be able to access the lake.
Kind: So you're okay with condition 17 the way it reads?
Sandra Cunningham: If we're able to access the lake.
John Cunningham: I mean you're not telling us we can't go down to the lake?
Joyce: No, ! don't think that's the letter of the law. No.
Johll Cunningham: ...
Kind: Thank you.
Joyce: Okay, this is open for a public hearing. Could I have a motion and a second to open it
up?
Blackowiak moved, Kind seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was
opened.
Joyce: This item's open for public hearing. If anyone would like to address the Planning
Commission on this subject, please step forward and state your name and address. Seeing none,
may I have a motion to close the public hearing.
Burton moved, Sidney seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed.
Joyce: Anybody just jump right in. Commission, anyone like to tackle this and give us their
insight on it? Deb.
Kind: Sure Mr. Chairman. I went out and looked at the site today and I was very glad that I did
because on paper it looks goofy but when you're there it looks like a very reasonable thing to do
and it's a beautiful site and I think it's a nice project. It was fun to see the elevations. I think it's
going to be really attractive. Condition number 9, talking about the 10 feet. Moving the
property. Or moving the house 10 feet. I don't see that that's necessary. I like it where it is. I
think it provides the best view for both homes and replacing that vegetation, if it's destroyed will
be sufficient. Were there any other issues? And as long as they're okay with condition 17 on the
shoreland access, I'm fine with the plan and agree with the staff report.
Joyce: Thank you. Alison.
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Blackowiak: Yeah, I pretty much agree with what Deb said. My only comments are going to be
regarding condition 15. And this is the driveway. I don't know if I've been convinced that it
needs to be an asphalt or concrete driveway. As is it looks nice. There are several other rock
driveways in the neighborhood and I think it's consistent with the neighborhood as,a rock
driveway. I however don't feel the need to necessarily take this condition out but I would maybe
say to council look carefully at that because I don't see that it absolutely has to be. I mean not
from an engineering standpoint. Not from a public safety standpoint. So I'm not convinced that
it needs to be paved. Then just one little comment about condition 15. It's worded the driveway
on both lots. We just have to stick a number 1 in there. But that's it. Otherwise I agree with
what Deb has said and it's, I think it's nicely done.
Joyce: Ladd any comments?
Conrad: Nothing new. I think there should be better definition to condition 17. It looks like it's
just sitting there and doesn't, ! don't know what it applies to. I'd be real uncomfortable ifI were
the Cunninghams and I think, yeah you don't want to. It just, it's too vague and they do have
access. They do have property. 'They have no intention of removing any of the vegetation down
there but it just is one of those real bad statements that I don't know how I would change it. You
know we do want to say that the vegetation on the point shouldn't be taken down. I think that's
what staff is saying and there's some clear, there are some significant trees down there but, and
they happen to be on the shoreline but that's not their intent so I don't know. I guess I, without
even making a motion on that one. I think staff just should be better, a little bit clearer on what
their intent is. I'd leave it in but I'd certainly get some clarification on that. The other points I
think, Deb's point I think on taking the first half. I don't think the pad should be moved. It will
hurt some other things and I would like to make their vegetation plan a part of the conditions.
We do have a way of mitigating any minor changes they're making to their side yard setback so I
think that should be a part of the conditions.
Kind: Number 16 speaks to that. Is that adequate?
Conrad: Well see that's a preservation and removal plan. Preservation Bob, is that the re, does
that also mean the revegetation or?
Generous: Could be.
Conrad: Okay. Well if you interpret it that way I'm comfortable that we could stick a word in
there that talks about. I think that's good. It's good for the neighbors to see that they're doing
something. Making that side of the house attractive, which it is already.
Joyce: Thank you.
Sidney: It looks straight forward. I appreciate the thoroughness of the staff report. I think we do
need to about that last condition maybe. That our verbiage, with the help of staff. I do appreciate
the applicant's thoroughness too in working with staff. That's great, It looks like a good plan. I
am in favor of modifying condition 9 to remove that shifting of the house 10 feet.
7
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Burton: I agree with basically all the comments. I'd remove 9 and 17 doesn't particularly
trouble me because of the way this property is set up but I was thinking that, I guess this is kind
of a question for everybody here. Could we add something to the end of that to the effect that in
the case of a hardship for a proposed reasonable use which is consistent with the neighborhood,
the City could approve removal of vegetation or something like that so there's an opening if
needed? I don't know if we even need to do that. Just a thought but something along those lines.
Joyce: Okay. I agree with everything that's been said. I don't think we need condition number
9. If condition 15, if that is part of the code that the driveway has to be paved, fine. I'd have to
agree with everyone else. I think the driveway as it is is fine. Also I think that's what the
neighborhood looks like and a lot crushed rock driveways there so I don't see why they have to
put a paved driveway in there. Leave that up to City Council to decide on that one. ! have to
agree with condition 17. I think what we're talking about is significant foliage, vegetation type
of thing. Get down to the.., not the letter of the law so if someone can brilliantly come up with
some motion, condition there to get this through, that would be wonderful so with that said, can
we get a motion here.
Kind: I'll make a motion Mr. Chair. I move the Planning Commission recommends approval of
the preliminary plat for subdivision #99-11 creating two lots for Sandy Point Addition as shown
on plans prepared by, I don't know how you say that. Schoell & Madsen, Inc. dated October 15,
1999 subject to the following conditions 1 through 18 with number 9 changed to read, the
walkout elevation of the dwelling should be raised a minimum of ½ foot to provide positive
drainage from the home. Away from the home. Number 16. Change to read, the applicant shall
submit tree preservation and landscape, let's see. Tree preservation, removal plans and
landscaping plans to the City prior to City Council approval of the final plat. And number 17
change to read, shoreline vegetation removal must comply with shoreland management
ordinances.
Conrad: I'd second.
Joyce: Any discussion?
Conrad: The only thing I'd like to do as a footnote, and it doesn't need to be part of the staff
report but I'd really like staff to revisit the asphalt driveway. And maybe I'd buy our ordinance.
The direction it's going but in this case I'm not sure. It may be the common portion of these two
lots that have asphalt and maybe the Cunningham's done want that, but consider that. Obviously
we're leaving it in so that's what you're stuck with. Staff doesn't have to move one iota on that
if we leave it in. But to have the common portion...that's going inland a little bit or into the
property a little bit to have that rock. But that's just a footnote. That's not an addendum or that's
not a change to condition 15. 15 is there and it's probably something that you should talk to City
Council about.
Kind moved, Conrad seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of the
preliminary plat for Subdivision #99-11 creating two lots for Sandy Point Addition as
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
shown on plans prepared by Schoell & Madsen, Inc., dated October 15, 1999, subject to the
following conditions:
The principal structure on Lot 1, Block 1 must maintain a 76 foot setback from the normal
water elevation (896.3).
In lieu of parkland dedication the developer shall pay full park and trail fees for Lot 1,
Block 1 to the city pursuant to city ordinance.
3. Access easement width must be 30 feet.
Because of the distance and the setbacks for the proposed building, additional address signs
will be required at the driveway entrance in compliance with Chanhassen Fire Department
Policy #29-1992 regarding premise identification. (Copy enclosed). Contact Chanhassen
Fire Marshal for proposed address identification at the driveway entrance.
A demolition permit must be obtained to demolish the existing detached garage and
gazebo. Both of these structures must be removed.
6. The water service serving the new home on Lot 1 cannot pass through the garage.
The water service line must be sized based on the available water pressure and the amount
of plumbing fixtures in the building.
o
The address for the existing home on Lot 2 will have to be changed to 6669 Horseshoe
Curve and the new home on Lot 1 will be addressed 6665 Horseshoe Curve. The applicant
must contact the appropriate agencies to coordinate this change.
The walkout elevation of the dwelling should be raised a minimum of 0.5 feet to provide
positive drainage away from the home.
10. A detailed grading, drainage, erosion control and tree removal plan will be required at time
of buiding permit application for city staff to review and approve.
11.
Drainage swales must be installed and maintained along both sides of any house proposed
on Lot 1 to manage runoff from the front yard to the back yard and maintain the
neighborhood drainage pattern. Erosion control measures will be required on the building
permit certificate of survey. Erosion control fencing shall be installed on the downstream
side of the grading limits. A rock construction entrance shall also be required at Horseshoe
Curve.
12.
The developer and staff shall work together in determining a path for the sanitary sewer
service which creates the least disruption to existing vegetation. The water service shall be
extended by the City at the developer's cost from Horseshoe Curve to the easterly property
line of Lot 2. The developer will be responsible for extending the water service through
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Lot 1 to Lot 2. The developer shall escrow with the City $2,500 to guarantee the cost of
water service extension across Horseshoe Curve. Lot 1, Block 1 will be responsible for a
sanitary sewer and water hookup fee and connection charges at time of building permit
application. The cost of extending the water service across Horseshoe Curve shall be
deducted from the watermain connection charge.
13.
The final plat shall dedicate an additional 10 feet of street right-of-way for Horseshoe
Curve along with the standard 10 foot front and rear and 5 foot side yard drainage and
utility easements. In addition, a 20 foot wide utility and drainage easement shall be
dedicated over the existing sanitary sewer line that runs through the westerly portion of
Lots 1 and 2.
14.
The developer shall be responsible for all City Attorney fees associated with the review and
recording of the final plat documents, Surface Water Management fees, and GIS fees
pursuant to City Ordinance. These fees are due at time of final plat recording.
15.
According to City Code, driveways within the urban service area shall be paved with an all
weather surface such as asphalt or concrete. The driveways on both Lots 1 and 2, Block 1
shall be paved with either bituminous or concrete. The common portion of the driveway
must be twenty feet wide pavement width with a seven ton design.
16. The applicant shall submit tree preservation and removal plans and landscape plans to the
city prior to City Council approval of the final plat.
17. Shoreline vegetation removal must comply with shoreland management ordinances.
18. Tree preservation fence will be required to be installed at the edge of the proposed grading
limits.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING:
REQUEST FOR PRELIMINARY PLAT APPROVAL TO SUBDIVIDE A PARCEL INTO
2 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS OF 20~134 SQ. FT. AND 19~591 SQ. FT. LOCATED
SOUTHWEST OF THE INTERSECTION OF POWERS BOULEVARD AND HOLLY
LANE~ ARROWHEAD ADDITION~ ARROWHEAD DEVELOPMENT.
Public Present:
Name Address
Michael Spiess
Michael Abbott
Robert M. Bowen
470 Flying Cloud Drive
1281 Medina Road, Long Lake
6275 Powers Blvd.
10
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Tad Ware
Joyce Hagedorn
Robert Rabe
Frank & Florence Natole
1225 Lilac Lane
630 Carver Beach Road
6307 Teton Lane
6251 Teton Lane
Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item.
Joyce: Are there any questions for staff at this time?
Blackowiak: Mr. Chair I have two quick questions. I think the first one will be to Dave. I'm
assuming that Carver County gave their blessing on the driveway location.
Hempel: At this point I have not heard back from them on this revised plan. The initial plan
they did have concern when the driveway was located further to the north on the property.
Because o£the sight line distance plus the driveway was off set from Holly Lane and I believe
it's Willow Creek, private street directly across from this lot. What we did is looked at it.
Adjusted it to the south to a line across from Willow Creek and improve the sight lines for the
driveway access point. We believe Carver County would concur with the location.
Blackowiak: All right, good. And Bob I just have kind of a general question. Often times we
have a tree replacement conditions. I've seen in other contracts ot other conditions that we
require the trees to be guaranteed. Do we ever do that with straight residential subdivisions or
what?
Generous: Yes. What we do is part of, it's in the ordinance so we don't have to incorporate it as
part of any conditions of approval. That they will guarantee them for two years. Basically it
works out too. They can either do that through a letter of credit or a cash escrow to the City.
Blackowiak: Okay and so that, like that doesn't have to be a condition or anything?
Generous: No, because that's part of our city ordinance.
Blackowiak: Good, all right. Thank you. All right, thank you.
Joyce: Any other questions for staffat this time? All right, if we can get the applicant up here to
address the Planning Commission. Please state your name and address.
Mike Abbott: I'm Mike Abbott. My address is 1282 Medina Road in Long Lake. We had gone
kind of round and round on how we wanted to divide this up and I think what we've ended up
with now. As Bob mentioned, actually it was kind of funny. I took over trying to do something
with this property somebody else in our company had started. We were intentionally, our initial
idea meant that the driveway was really long and it went to the north and the reason we did that
was that the slope on that hill, on that lot is really steep. I think what we've got now, we had our
surveyor out there looking at it and I think we can do a 10% grade on that. I don't think it will be
any steeper than that. I mean we don't want it to be coming down where the two driveways
11
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
merge together and they come down onto Powers Boulevard. You know you don't want it to
have, my driveway at my house is very much that way where you either take a running start to get
up or you go really slow coming down in the winter so. I think the plan we have now I
independently of even meeting Bob drew a plan that was very, very close to that so when I went
in the day I met him he sort of said well come on in. I want to show you something that I would
recommend and same thing that I had so I think the plan accommodates what we want to do as
well as what you want to do. We will be planting trees. That's one of the things that, we don't
do a lot of developments but the ones that we do we do try to keep you know the environment as
much the same as it was, if not improved. We're a very small company but everybody in our
company as well, we have plant probably a thousand trees a year. We have trees stockpiled on
lane that we own that we'll make it look nice. I think for one I think it will also, from our own
selfish point of view, it would be nice to have some pine trees along that front road anyway just
so that the people don't hear the noise as much and that the view from the people coming out of
Willow Creek or Holly Lane still have a nice view. I mean that's a nice piece of property, but it's
also a piece of residential property that somebody could put one or two homes on so. I don't
know if, maybe just go through the conditions here and see if there's. There aren't many
variances and I think it pretty much meets the conditions here. That's really all. I don't think
there's anything else here that really needs talking about. I think what we've done is something
that will work so if you have any questions I'll be glad to answer them for you.
Joyce: Any questions for the applicant at this point?
Mike Abbott: Okay, thanks.
Joyce: Can I get a motion and a second to open it up for public hearing please.
Conrad moved, Sidney seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was
opened.
Joyce: Okay, this is open for a public hearing. If you'd like to address the Planning Commission
on this item, please step forward and state your name and address.
Robert M. Bowen: My name is Robert M. Bowen. I reside at 6275 Powers Boulevard and I wish
to make a few comments with respect to these procedures. The zoning ordinances of Chanhassen
were established for a reason. I think. The area, in our opinion, is unsafe and unsuitable for two
homes. And the aesthetics of Chanhassen's entrance and property value in the neighborhood will
likely drop precedent and a slippery slope. The zoning ordinances of Chanhassen were
established for a reason. And presumably to preserve our pleasant suburban community. Attract
commerce, it will help Chanhassen grow and support the tax base and preserve homeowners
property values. Ignoring the ordinances for the proposed project will undermine all of these
purposes. Therefore the zoning ordinance should be forced uniformily. There are unsafe and
unsiteable sites for two homes. Highway 17. The reason these two points where the staff
referred you to is that Highway 17 is a dangerous road, and if you don't believe it come on down
and see it. The proposed site is a steep hill and sees a great deal of drainage. Highway 17. She's
a stinker. She's a fast road. Entering cars, especially along this stretch out there near the
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Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
proposed home is at a risk of accidents with the traffic. Because the traffic is much, is often
much faster than the posted 45 mph. They're still coming over in excess of 50 mph out here to
the astonishment of us all. Particularly since they built a thing that's called, not a highway but a
religious item. The thing that was being fed in here all summer long. That little area on the
side. A trail. We had big trail business. The 45 mph doesn't mean a damn. You and I know
you've been out on that highway where 50 was ignored, and that's right in the community.
Within two miles here you can go from 50. That's the term we use for 55, 56 and worse. South,
til you get down to where the two homes are proposed to be made, and then it drops to 30. It's
crazy. Because traffic is often much faster than the posted, Posted miles per miles. They don't
even have it even posted at that. Excelsior sets up speed traps just beyond Lilac Lane on
Highway 17 for a reason. The site is not suitable for one home, let alone two for reasons of
drainage and the creek about the property and noise from the highway. Come on down and
spend a night trying to get to sleep when these things are screaming through there. I've heard
many a night and sometimes occasionally a crash. It's a mad house out there and as you must all
well know, just recently they ordered a 25 mph speed off to the south line off the south shore of
Christmas Lake. This site has been for sale for decades for a reason. No one wishing to build a
home for his or her family would choose it. There is no small coincidence that a corporation
intent on hit and run profits is the party to propose this development. With respect to that sale for
decades for a reason, is that nay father fought these same problems back prior to '43. Aesthetics
of Chanhassen's entrance. Currently the entrance is attractive. These houses will marr that. The
trees planted on the hills are going to be gone. It's going to be stripped down. And you and I
know it. All you have to do is get out here a few miles and what this town does has been trying
to preserve something but we will go through, it will go. Two structures constructed according
to the standards necessary to cram them into land the size of a postage stamp on a steep hill will
not live up to the standards of other homes in the neighborhood. The inconsistency would damge
those homeowners' interest. And bending the rules for this chase will set a dangerous precedent
for all and anyone to side step zoning ordinances. Do you have any questions?
Joyce: No sir. Thank you very much for coming. Would anyone else like to address the
Planning Commission on this topic?
Robert Rabe: Robert Rabe and I live on Teton Lane, which is just to the west of this property.
And I guess just a couple questions. Is it true, just to confirm, that this is at variance with the
ordinances for the zoning?
Joyce: Bob, could you answer that question?
Generous: As originallly proposed it was but based on the revisions it complies with city
ordinance.
Robert Rabe: And what were the sizes of the lots when it was originally proposed?
Generous: They were the 23,719 and 16,010.
13
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Robert Rabe: Okay. And so by basically manipulating the lines it has been possible to fit two
lots in this space and just squeeze over the zoning limit basically. Is this how it?
Generous: No, they're substantially above it. 15,000 square feet is the minimum lot size in the
zoning district. So they're both about 5,000 square feet over.
Robert Rabe: Okay. I understand. I tend to concur with Bowen's comments. I guess I would
like to ask what is the benefit to the community of having two houses on this lot? What is the
purpose derived from that? It's a very noisey place due to the traffic. It's a busy road. It's a
steep grade. To me it's very reasonable that, as Mr. Bowen stated, that there could be a serious
problem of traffic entering onto basically what's a fast road at that point. And as a property
owner basically adjacent to this, I am highly concerned that the trees that are currently blocking
the view of Mill Street might be all cut down and I don't believe we have any control over that.
And I really, I haven't heard anything addressed with regard to that topic specifically. And I
don't personally have a lot of confidence that the views of the neighbors are going to be
respected. In my experience with developments of this type it's basically get the most dollars out
of the property that you can possibly get out and I think this is a case in point. So the developer
will be long gone. I mean they'll put the house in and you know what, how long? Maybe a few
months it takes to turn the property around after it's completed. Sell it for whatever price
perhaps they can get. Hopefully more than they would have gotten for one nice house on the
property. And then they're gone and out and we're left with it. Basically forever so, while it
may comply with the zoning ordinances, I can't deny that, I do feel that it is contrary to the nature
of the neighborhood and is basically inconsistent with the overall intent of the community and I
would propose that it not be allowed to be granted just because it happens to comply with some
facts on a page. At the very least I would like to know what is going to happen to the screen of
trees around the homes and particularly to the west where right now it's quite a nice, thick stand.
I would like to know what actions are being taken to preserve that. And also I think the risk of
accidents on Mill Street is a very great one and a very serious one. I would like to know
specifically what is being done to guarantee that there wouldn't be a problem here so with that.
Joyce: Thank you very much. Bob I'm going to, I need to intrude on the public hearing here but
I did have a question for you, for the staff and I apologize. Do we take a tree inventory here of
when this development, will there be a tree inventory when they do the tree removal?
Generous: Part of their building permit application they have that requirement. Grading and
drainage and tree removal specific for the site. We did a canopy coverage calculation as part of
this subdivision.
Joyce: What kind of, would you happen to know what kind of trees are in there? Are they
substantial trees like oaks and elms and things like that or is it more of a scrubby type of tree?
Generous: Yes they were. There is a nice stand of conifers on the northern portion of this site.
And that's the area that we're trying to preserve in its entirety. But it was ironwood. Maybe
some basswood in there. Some, there weren't many large trees. It was like regrowing a meadow
area.
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Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Joyce: How do those, how do we go from this preliminary plat to the moving site where we find
out what trees are actually being moved? Do you go over that with the applicant once they put
the, I want the process here. So everybody knows what's going on.
Generous: As part of this application they need to provide the City with a landscaping plan for
the installation of 17 trees that are required as part of the subdivision.
Joyce: Why wasn't it part of that? Why weren't we requiring it now on this preliminary plat?
At least the landscaping plan.
Generous: Well I think initially they didn't feel that it was such a small plat that they didn't have
that much to provide. So the applicant is, and that is something we believe that we can work
with. Our major concern in designing this was trying to preserve as much of the site as we could.
And we were able to almost double the area of tree preservation based on the revised plans.
Then from that we take the, we can tell them the quantity and then work with them on the
specific landscaping plan. Then as part of the site grading for the building permit we'll look at
specific protection measures of trees in the area. Of the building pads to see if there's additional
trees that can and will be preserved as part of the plat.
Joyce: All right, thanks for. Yes ma'am. Sorry to.
Florence Natole: ...picture that I could show. Okay, I'm Florence Natole, 6251 Teton Lane.
And we are the only two lots that are in back so when they take the trees down, our lot is going to
be like this. They're worrying about trees. They're plum trees a lot of them. They're not big,
beautiful trees. They've been there since we've been there, 37 years. I used to reach over our
fence to pick the plums. I asked this of Bob when I talked to him on the phone. I was a little hot
under the collar that day. Some days I get like that. But I said what's going to happen to our
land which goes up like this and then this goes down like that. They take all the trees and build a
house, where's our land going to be? Up in the air with nothing? Is there going to be anything, I
haven't heard a word. Is there going to be anything about making a 45 degree angle or whatever
they talk about, which they did Lorus when Centex put in those houses. They had that as a
stipulation that they couldn't leave him with the hill so everything ran down. So our land is right
there where the land is. That's what I was trying to say. It's, we're the Natoles and our land runs
right to there. The two trees, the two biggest trees we have, my husband put some white ties on
so we can see from there. Yeah, that's us. Right where this land is that they'll propose the two
houses. So you're talking about some trees. I'm not worrying about the trees. I'm worrying
about what's going to happen to our land when it's up in the air and we want to sell maybe and
somebody wants to build a house back there. Then what do they do?
Joyce: Could I have Bob maybe address that for you right now? Since we're at it.
Florence Natole: Well I've already talked to him once about this.
Generous: She didn't like my answer.
15
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Florence Natole: No, I don't like your answer.
Joyce: Help us all then. Is there a retaining wall right there as well? Is that what we're talking
there?
Hempel: Mr. Chairman maybe I can address that°
Joyce: There we go. I knew someone could help us here.
Hempel: The plans before you this evening show approximately a 3 to 1 side slope from the
property line down to the driveway. There's also a small retaining wall proposed by the garage
on this particular type of home site that they're proposing. Now one of the things that staff said
in the staff report was, this is just one way to develop the property. Another home builder may
come in and design another home style that reconfigures the footprint and that's where we go and
we say to them, okay show us a detailed grading, drainage and erosion control plan, tree removal
plan and show us how you're going to maintain that slope so it doesn't just slide off and leave
you with a cliff.
Florence Natole: Yeah, up in the air.
Hempel: Those are things that we address at time of building permit application.
Florence Natole: Okay. This then, right now you don't have anything covering that at this
particular time?
Hempel: Well there are ordinances in place that protect you from that. They want to use a
retaining wall, there are certain requirements. They have to be engineered. Safety requirements
to put a fence above them if they're over 4 or 6 feet high...
Florence Natole: It's going to be. It's quite a high one. I've always dreamed of having a house
up on that upper acre there because you can see a lot farther than from where we are. So it's a
beautiful spot as far as we're concerned. But what's it going to look like after that's gone? Well.,
for now I guess that's my big objection.
Tad Ware: My name is Tad Ware. I reside at 1225 Lilac Lane. The points that my grandfather
brought up came up at dinner on Sunday with my father who owns the property immediately
north of the Natole's and also abuts that hill. Exactly that one right there. And the four major
concerns that came out, the first was the, what we felt was lack of compliance with the zoning
ordinances. Are those all complied with now? Including setback from the, okay. The second
thing that we were worried about was, as Mrs. Natole mentioned, the erosion of the hill. There is
a great deal of water that travels through that land. Both the...that feed into Christmas Lake
travel down that hill. There's a big ditch that runs along that property and carries a lot of water
for that reason and our concern is that it's going to not only, with the grading that I'm sure is
going to have to happen to flatten that out in order to build two structures there. At least to my
16
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
uneducated guess, cause some sort of erosion if it's not very carefully done. Our third concern
was Highway 17 now traveling into Chanhassen is something that we're pretty proud of. It's a
very beautiful strip of road. Mr. Bowen has built a bunch of evergreens along there before the
new trail that was put in. Went in and it's a very nice strip that goes into Chanhassen and we're
worried about what putting two houses in is going to do to the appearance of the neighborhood.
Also, the property's been up for sale for a couple of decades. Every since I was a little kid and
I'm pushing 30 and it's a very steep piece of land and...doing around 40 or 50 and is frequently
doing much faster. There's a reason why the Excelsior police set up right past Lilac Lane and
make out a lot of money on people coming out of Chanhassen. And our concern is partly that
folks traveling through there are going to be placed in greater danger just because more people
are going to be coming out onto that county road. And also that, what was the other point I was
going to get to? Sorry, I get nervous public speaking. I think that was about it. But those were
the concerns that we had and if they could be addressed more to our satisfaction that our property
values aren't going to drop and the hill isn't going to erode and cause damage to the land that we
own, it would...our fears. Thanks.
Joyce Hagedorn: ...45 Holly Lane and it butts up to your property Mr. Bowen. And our garage
has collapsed twice.
Kind: Could you tell us your name and address please? Thank you.
Joyce Hagedorn: I'm Joyce Hagedorn at 630 Carver Beach Road but we also have a house at
8145 Holly Lane. And the garage has collapsed twice and if there's going to be more erosion,
more water coming down our property we are going to lose our garage again for the third time. I
have never complained to the Chanhassen Village for it but this is a big concern. We had Mr.
Kerber come and try to re-support our garage and rebuild it again but every time there was a huge
rainfall, this water comes down. Now the City has done an excellent job of putting some rip rap
along Holly Lane but up on Willow Creek there's no, and it comes down Willow Creek and into
my garage. There's going to be more runoff. I'm going to lose my property so I'm very
concerned and I just wanted to bring this concern before...
Joyce: Thank you very much for. Anybody else. Can I have a motion to close the public
hearing?
Kind moved, Sidney seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed.
Joyce: Okay commissioners.
Blackowiak: Mr. Chair, may I ask for clarification from Bob before we start?
Joyce: Sure.
Blackowiak: As I was sitting here playing with my little scale of 30 feet here, I was reading
through the conditions and it talks about the front yard setback on Lot 1. It's condition 15.
Which is the lot line that you are considering the front lot line?
17
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Generous: It would be the side line. Property line closest to the county road. Where the
driveway would be.
Blackowiak: Okay, so not the one that's most north of south? It's the diagonal... ?
Generous: It becomes side lot lines...
Blackowiak: So as I look at the 30 feet, it appears that the garage is encroaching into that 30 foot
setback. So what are we seeing here? Are we seeing an actual plan or would any garage
encroach into it or not?
Generous: That's part of the reason we're requesting that they provide the individual grading,
drainage and erosion control plans because these are stylized house plans. We don't believe this
is what's actually going to go on the site. They would have to comply with the setback
requirements. That's another reason I put it in the conditions so it's very specific.
Blackowiak: Good. Great, that helps. Thank you.
Joyce: Okay. Did you want to continue on Alison?
Blackowiak: Certainly. As I first read this, on paper it looks like a fairly straight forward
subdivision. However as I've driven by this property many times. Have in-laws that live up in
Excelsior so I drive this road a lot and I do know that it is kind of a tough road. I know the traffic
moves quickly. And I also see Excelsior police making their money on people both going to and
leaving Excelsior because there are lots of people that are stopped there on a regular basis. I do
think traffic is a main concern. It's access is directly onto 17 is less than ideal. I don't know that
it could really be any other way unfortunately. But short of a right-in, right-out, something like
that, if there are going to be houses there, they need to have access. Although it might not be the
best thing to do, you got to get there. I do have some questions or problems I guess with the
erosion specifically. It is such a hilly lot. I think there are going to be a lot of potential erosion
problems. Not only on the lots themselves but the lots directly to the west. And also potentially
onto the highway. I worry what's going to happen onto the highway after maybe a rain. Are we
going to get mud slides or something coming down onto the highway because we're losing dirt
off the property? I don't know. One of the people...pointed water flow to Christmas Lake and
that's something that concerns me. If you have streams going through the property, any time you
start changing directions of streams and water flow you're going to have, there are potentially
huge problems. And I would like to find out a little bit more about where the streams are. How
they are impacted by the proposed houses and would hope that as city council looks at this they
could get some answers onto, as to what the situation is with the runoff patterns now. Where the
streams are and how this is going to impact this entire parcel. Obviously this is a very tough one.
I can see why it has been for sale for a lot of years because it won't be easy to build on it but I do
want to be sure that the neighbors are protected in terms of erosion specifically, both uphill and
downhill from this project. And I think those are my major concerns. It's not as straight forward
as I thought it was. I don't have any problems with any of the other conditions as long as all the
18
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
setbacks are met. Not much we can do as a Planning Commission if ordinances are met. But we
can put conditions in and we can make comments to try to make it the best possible subdivision I
hope that we can work something out.
Kind: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple questions for Bob. I wonder if you can address some of the
questions that were brought up by the public. Mr. Bowen commented several times on, he felt
the lot was too small for two homes and I heard you say quietly and I just want to make sure it's
for the record that our minimum lot size is 15,000 square feet and these both exceed that.
Generous: That's correct. They're almost 20,000 square feet each.
Kind: So they're on the large side of our standard lot size. And then I noticed there's no
condition in here talking about tree conservation. Is that something that we could put in as a
condition? That there be tree conservation lines, especially along the west.
Generous: You can put any condition you like in there.
Kind: I might.
Generous: We believe with the revision to the plan we were able to save the northern triangle.
That would be an appropriate place for it. It becomes a little more problematic on the west side
of the property near the house pads because they don't know if they're going to put the retaining
wall in or go with the 3 to 1 slope which is a standard grading...so we didn't want to restrict it
too much. We knew it's a difficult site.
Kind: Okay, thank you.
Hempel: Maybe I can add to that. The northerly half of the site you're basically couldn't build
anything in there becauase of the setback requirements so you certainly could place a tree
conservation easement over that but I guess there's no way to build in that area so we felt it
would be preserved for the most part.
Kind: Thank you. With that Mr. Chairman I'll make my comments. I agree with what Alison
said and my main concern is the aesthetics of the site be maintained and especially the view from
the people to the west. So I'd like to see some sort of, I don't know. Tree conservation plan or
inventory of the significant trees be made and efforts be made to preserve those. I understand, I
like how it's been creatively laid out so that the northern portion is basically left undisturbed and
I understand your point about it. It kind of goes without saying but it seems important to point
that out that all those trees on the north halfI guess of the lot will not be changed. And there will
be no grading or anything happening in that really severe, steep area. The driveway entrance is a
big concern also. You've got to be able to get into these houses somehow. IfI had my way I
would say this lot shouldn't be developed at all until all of those larger parcels are developed and
they all be developed at the same time but I don't get my way on that. So with that being said
you know this lot is a residential lot and there's two homes that can fit on there within our
ordinances, it's got to have a way out to the street and the County needs to approve that so if they
19
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
approve it, which is, it's in their hands I guess, we can go with that. My favorite place to get
sweet corn is at Kerber's which is that next right turn when you head south and ! know I've been
almost rear ended making that turn. This drive is even before that so I would be very nervous
about living there. Very nervous but I won't be buying it. So you'll be the one rear ending the
person making the right turn. It is. ! agree. Okay.
Joyce: Great. Keep the comments at the commission level here because it's our turn now. Ladd,
do you have anything else to add?
Conrad: Well they're all valid questions but it is, it's a buildable lot. Legally. Yeah there's
nothing to add. My big concern is the erosion and the tree replacement. To make it fit in, and
we've talked about that. I think the conditions reflect the control we have. The conditions reflect
the control we have on this. Before I stop my comments let me ask Dave a question on retaining
walls. Is that's what's going to be? Is that what you would guess would happen on the steep
slope?
Hempel: I would envision some retaining walls on the westerly side of the Lot 1.
Conrad: How big?
Hempel: I would suspect to try to keep them in the 4 to 6 foot range. As you get higher than that
they get very expensive. They have to be engineered. A fence for safety issues.
Conrad: And so our rules will manage, what manage retaining wall height other than you? You
do that. In terms of safety, what's the control we have on safety when you have a 6 foot retaining
wall and maybe children on the other side. What guidelines do you follow Dave?
Hempel: I believe there are some building codes to protect residents from that. We've also
instilled a policy here, any time you're adjacent to a property like that, a residential use, that we
would require a fence be placed on top of a retaining wall. Anything above 4 foot 9.
Conrad: Thank you. Bob, your tree replacement plan has 17 trees. A minimum of 4 trees must
be conifers. We don't know where those 17 are going, do we? We don't.
Generous: We're requesting that they provide us with that plan prior to council approval.
Conrad: Is that as stiff a tree replacement plan as we can put in right now?
Generous: Yes.
Conrad: That's what ordinance tells us to do. Okay.
Mike Abbott: Could I address that now?
Joyce: No, we're done now. You can address that at city council level.
20
Planning Commission Meeting ~ November 17, 1999
Conrad: I'm sure this will be replayed at City Council so. A minimum of 4 so what sets that
minimum? Our ordinance again, a minimum of 4 was that staff's?
Generous: Well no, that was staff's recommendations. 20% have to be conifers.
Com'ad: I'm just getting into the small points. I think the residents would like to know some of
the details and the details aren't available yet. They're just not there. The ordinances are there
and you almost have to say trust the ordinances. We've gone through this before but you've got
to sort of follow the process through. I think we all know what the issues are and I think staff is
now hearing us express what the issues are, and they're pretty good at following through on this.
Nothing else.
Joyce: Thank you Ladd. Matt.
Burton: I agree with all the comments prior really for a change. And what I understand is going
on is they're not really asking to build any particular houses. They're asking that this single lot
be divided into two lots and with these proposed lines and they've met the requirements that we
have for doing that. The staff did work with them pretty diligently it appears to preserve the site
the best as possible. And because they've met the standards, I think our hands are pretty tied and
the details about where the driveway could be or retaining walls and all that and the grading,
that's all ! think for the next step that we're not at. I understand the concerns of the neighbors
and I respect the concerns but what we're essentially faced with is a drawing of a property line
and they've met the standards. I don't think that we have much flexibility at this point in how we
handle it. I think we have to approve it.
Sidney: I agree with the previous comments. I am concerned with the drainage issues. I think
that's...it does sound like there may be a bit more than originally outlined in the staff report.
Also I am concerned about the safety issue for a driveway entrance. That Carver County will
review that and things will work out...At first glance it seemed to be a straight forward
subdivision. I think those issues...subdivision meets ordinances.
Joyce: I don't have much else to add. This is a sensitive piece of property. But it is a buildable
piece of property and what you're telling me it's been considered a buildable piece of property
for a long time so now they've decided to act on that and I think it's within reason. I would like
to make one comment though for consideration is that we put some sort of condition or at least
acknowledgement that we don't approve this proposal until the County can verify the access
location. An acceptable access location. I didn't see that in the conditions. Condition 11 says
that the applicant will be responsible obtaining, complying with necessary permits such as Carver
County, MPCA, etc, etc. I'd like to kind of highlight, if someone would be willing to do that,
that there definitely has to be concurrence with the County that the access location is acceptable.
I think that's kind of important and still puts some of the onus on the County to decide whether
it's a safe entrance for this development or not. So, with that said do I have a motion?
21
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
Blackowiak: I'll make a motion. I move that the Planning Commission recommends approval of
the preliminary plat for Arrowhead Addition, Subdivision #99-10 creating two lots as shown on
plans prepared by Advance Surveying and Engineering Company dated June 24, 1999, revised
October 26, 1999, subject to the following conditions 1 through 15. And I've got a few of my
own to add. Number 16. Explore the possibility of a tree conservation easement for the northern
triangle of the property. Number 17. Investigate potential erosion, drainage and water flow
problems for the parcel. And number 18. Condition of approval being concurrence with the
County for an acceptable driveway location.
Joyce: Is there a second on that motion?
Kind: Second.
Joyce: Got a motion and a second. Is there any discussion?
Kind: One question Alison. Would you be okay with a friendly amendment? I think it was 16
of your's that included a detailed plan of tree inventory.
Blackowiak: Bob, do we need that or is that part of our ordinance? Did you say it was part of
our ordinance, tree inventory?
Generous: As part of the specific plan, yes. They have to provide that. 'You can repeat it here if
you want to.
Kind: Just to emphasize how important we think it is. Here's my proposed number 16. Let me
know what you think here. The applicant provide a detailed plan of tree inventory and tree
conservation easement, especially along the western and norther portions of the parcel.
Blackowiak: I can live with that.
Joyce: Okay. We have the amendment to number 16. You accept that? Okay. Any other
discussion?
Blackowiak moved, Kind seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of
the preliminary plat for Arrowhead Addition, Subdivision #99-10 creating two lots as
shown on plans prepared by Advance Surveying and Engineering Company dated June 24,
1999, revised October 26, 1999, subject to the following conditions:
The development shall pay full park and trail fees pursuant to city ordinance in lieu of park
land dedication.
If any soil corrections are done on the property a final grading plan and soil report must be
submitted to the Inspections Division before permits will be issued.
22
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
o
4
o
10.
11.
12.
Address numbers must be posted at the driveway entrance on Powers Boulevard and on
each dwelling.
Each property must be served by independent sewer and water services. It may be possible
to provide an easement for a joint service, however a manhole structure would be required
at the service split.
The applicant shall submit landscape plan as part of the final plat approval showing a total
of 17 trees to be planted as part of this development. A minimum of four of the trees must
be conifers that shall be located along Powers Boulevard. Conifers shall average seven feet
in height at planting. The balance of the trees may be from the city's approved tree list.
Trees shall meet minimum size requirements.
A detailed grading, drainage and erosion control, tree removal plan will be required for
each lot at time of building permit application for city staff to review.
The applicant will be required to enter into a development contract with the City and
provide the necessary financial security to guarantee installation of the public
improvements and conditions of final plat approval.
The applicant shall dedicate the southeasterly 50 feet of Outlot A for public street purposes
for Holly Lane.
The applicant shall prepare and have recorded a 20 foot wide private drainage and utility
easement in favor of Lot 1 over Lot 2 to extend sewer and water service to Lot 1. In
addition, the developer shall prepare and have recorded a 30 foot wide private driveway
easement agreement across Lot 2 to provide access to Lot 1 from Powers Boulevard. The
driveway width shall be a minimum of 18 feet wide and a maximum of 24 feet wide in the
common portion of the driveway area. Individual driveways may be a minimum of 12 feet
wide and a maximum of 24 feet wide. All driveway areas shall be paved with an all
weather surface such as bituminous or concrete.
The applicant shall prepare detailed construction plans and specifications in accordance
with the City's Standard Specifications and Detail Plates for the extension of sewer and
water service to service Lots 1 and 2. Detailed construction plans and specifications shall
be submitted to city staff for review and approval three weeks prior to final plat
consideration.
The applicant shall be responsible for obtaining and complying with the necessary permits
such as Carver County Highway Department, MPCA, Watershed District, and Minnesota
Department of Health.
Lots 1 and 2 shall be responsible for a sanitary sewer and water hookup charge at time of
building permit application at the rate in effect at the time.
23
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
13. SWMP fees shall be paid to the city in the amount of $2,530 ($782 quality and $1,802
quantity) prior to the recording of the final plat.
14. The applicant shall dedicate to the city a drainage and utility easement over Outlot A.
15.
Since Lot 1 does not front on a public street, the front yard shall be considered the lot line
closest to Powers Boulevard. The required 30 foot front ym'd setback shall be maintained
fi'om this lot line.
16. The applicant provide a detailed plan of tree inventory and tree conservation
easement, especially along the western and norther portions of the parcel.
17. Investigate potential erosion, drainage and water flow problems for the parcel.
18. Condition of approval being concurrence with the County for an acceptable driveway
location.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Joyce: Okay, this will pass onto the City Council on December 13th. Thank you all for coming.
Appreciate your comments and coming out this evening.
Audience: I have a question. How can we be made apprised of the situation because...
Joyce: Okay, what I suggest you do is call Mr. Generous over here, who will be very happy to
walk you through any further questions you have. And you've got, like I said, the 13th of
December is when this comes before the City Council which will make the binding decision on
this. And I'll just say to everybody that the City is pretty good about answering questions and
being accomodating to sort of problems you have so please stop in. Bob Generous, Kate
Aanenson, happy to talk to you. Dave Hempel too.
OLD BUSINESS.
Generous: ...received additional financing through the Met Council so we believe that project
will go forward now?
Kind: Apartments? I missed the first part.
Generous: So we've been working with them and the Minnesota Housing Finance Agency to
find additional funding sources beyond the City of Chanhassen. So it looks like it's a go now.
Or should be a go.
Joyce: Was it the bicycle shop that's starting to take shape?
Generous: That building and Building 4 is going up. The swim school is in for construction.
24
Planning Commission Meeting -November 17, 1999
Burton: Bob, I can't recall, is the bike shop all a bike shop in that building or wasn't there some
other space too?
Generous: There's a little juice bar area that they're going to have in the window on the patio
side. And then they have their office space of course up on the top.
NEW BUSINESS.
Joyce: New business?
Generous: Yes. Next meeting you will have two variances. What everyone likes to hear but at
least you can make final decisions on those .... apartments, that's on hold. That's the ones as
part of the Lake Susan Hills development. Yeah, we're working with the applicant to revise the
plans. So rather than do like we did tonight, we have one set of information and then have to
change it all. We're going to come up with a.
Kind: Where are these located?
Generous: Lake Drive West, inbetween Powers and just off of Powers on the south side.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Deb Kind noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission
meeting dated October 20, 1999 as presented.
ONGOING ITEMS.
Generous: As part of the Pulte Home development, that's up for reconsideration at Council. The
original p~oposal failed on a 3 to 2 motion and so, then one of the people on the 2 side has
requested it be reconsidered. These are answers that Kate prepared for the residents comments
that were made at the meeting. And so she just asked that I bring these down so you are apprised
of what's going on with that. At least in the discussion on that.
Conrad: Why does the City, you know that was brought to us as a sketch plan review. And I
haven't made an issue of this but why is City Council reviewing this, because it was a sketch
plan review? Why wasn't it brought back to us? After the.
Kind: To noodle it kind of.
Conrad: Absolutely. The sketch plan, and we'd better talk about this sometime when Kate's
back and we have everybody here but the sketch plan review is a very informal process where
you get input from everybody. And then it's up to the developer to come back and do what they
think is right based on the informal comments. What was presented to us was very formal from
Kate. Very detailed. Very specific with conditions and I've not seen that before. I made
mention of it that night but what the little bit of interest to me right now is how involved the City
25
Planning Commission Meeting - November 17, 1999
is at this point in time. Maybe saving the developer some money. But I want to understand the
process because I don't understand it right now.
Generous: Mr. Chairman, the big issue at the council level were the land use issues. Is this the
appropriate land uses for that so that was part of their discussion.
Conrad: And that's valid, yeah. It's always been valid.
Generous: And then the question also became what's the advantage of the PUD and that's part
of what Kate's trying to explain in those comments that there is a lot more control through that
process rather than they could come in with a straight subdivision and use like an R-4 zoning and
go with twin homes or RSF and do a standard subdivision on portions and we'd lose some of the
preservation and common open spaces.
Joyce: Okay. Ongoing item.
Generous: Pulte.
Joyce: And we've had some open discussion?
Conrad: That was it.
Joyce: Motion to adjourn.
Kind moved, Conrad seconded to adjourn the Planning Commission meeting. The meeting
was adjourned at 8:30 p.m.
Submitted by Kate Aanenson
Community Development Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
26
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 23, 1999
Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Mike Howe, Jay Karlovich, Rod Franks and
David Moes
MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Manders
STAFF PRESENT: Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe moved, Karlovich seconded to approve the Minutes of the
Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated October 26, 1999 as presented. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
REQUEST FOR PUBLIC GATHERING PERMIT~ WATER SKIING TOURNAMENT
AT LAKE SUSAN PARK.
Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item.
Lash: Thanks Jerry. Are there commissioners who have questions for Jerry before we open it
up?
Berg: Maybe later.
Lash: I think we'd like to hear first from the applicant and then we'll open it up to the residents
who are here.
Joe Mueller: Well thanks for having us here this evening. This will be our fourth year here in
Chanhassen and before we came Pam pulled up 13 family members that are participate in the
INT throughout the State that live here in Chanhassen and we've read some letters here and
concerns of activities that have happened in last year's tournament and it's unfortunate that we
have to read letters like this and it's not brought forward to Pam or myself that there were these
incidents that happened. I participate not only in INT but Minnesota Water Ski Association,
Barefoot International. We have 20 tournaments throughout the state and quite frankly I haven't
come up against this before. Especially with boat owners. Usually they're in support of family
gatherings like this but obviously we have some things to go through with a few of these
incidences that happened. I actually was on a radio with a couple of them and we've been out of
town for a week but we actually wanted to have quite a few of our members here to come up and
speak that happen to be in the boats. But I guess you guys might have some questions for us but
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
it's, Lake Susan, we like this. I mean we've got a dealership in Excelsior and we've always like
the city of Chanhassen and Susan because it's close to home. And we have a lot of members in
this area. Most of our tournaments are on lakes the same size as Lake Susan. As a matter of fact
the only one I think that we've run throughout the whole state, whether it be INT, Minnesota
Waterski Association or Barefoot is Madden's and that's one of our INT's on Gull Lake which is
a very open lake and it's very difficult to run a tournament on it but all the other lakes are 200
acres and less that we've run tournaments. Whether it be INT or MWSA. For years. For the
past 30 years. I've been at this 15 years and this is the first time I've ever been confronted by
boat owners that have petitioned you know against us so I haven't had a chance to talk with these
boat owners which I would love to. I would have loved to have talked to these customers, or not
customers. They actually could be our customers, during the tournament. If they could have
come over and confronted Pam, our State coordinator on it instead of coming here tonight and
reading these letters so.
Berg: Excuse my naivet& Big tournament? Lots of people?
Pam Mueller: We average about a hundred people but that's both days. So it's probably about
50/50.
Berg: This is maybe a stupid question, tell me if it is. Could the tournament be held on a
Tuesday and Wednesday? Or during the week.
Pam Mueller: No because it happens all day. I mean...all day and afternoon and you know I've
got a lot of volunteers who help us out and they all work during the week. You know so
weekends are really the only time that we can do it. We're not locked into doing it the 8th and 9th
of July. I mean you know we're flexible as far as, you know honestly the tournament last year
was a nightmare for me too. I mean we spent the whole time with people going up and down,
which ! understand they're lake owners. I appreciate that but they truly set out to make it
miserable for us too. I mean it's, they did. You could tell and I know at one point Jerry was
there and he saw, they were going, I mean we went up to them and asked them and said you
know, we tried to work with them numerous times and saying you know, take turns. Can we,
because what happened was the tournament ended up going a whole lot longer than it should
have because we had to give re-rides to people because they kept going up and down with the IO
which caused huge wakes. I don't expect them not to be on the lake. They have every right to be
on the lake, but I guess I felt like we could maybe work with each other and I felt like they just
felt there was no way that they wanted to work with us. As far as not letting people go on the
landing, I know there's no way we kept people from going in the landing because there's people
going all day into the landing. And I'm right there at the computer right by the landing so I, you
know that adds to being harassed. I know that a couple times we did go up and ask if there was
something we could do. If we could work with them. You know to try to, you know because we
wanted to be done too. I mean I want my tournament to be done. I don't want it to go on until,
you know into the evening either.
2
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Berg: Is there, I haven't talked to anybody from the neighborhood. Is there anyway to work out
a compromise to find a weekend that maybe would be less objectionable than one right in the
middle of the summer? Let's brainstorm.
Pam Mueller: Well yeah. I mean I'm willing to, you know definitely willing to work with them.
Berg: My next question, and maybe it's in here. I didn't see it someplace. What's left of the
lake
when you're out there having your tournament? What's left for anyone else ifI want to take my
little boat out there. Is it practical that I can even do that?
Joe Mueller: Well I would say that you've got at least 180-200 feet off of the lakeshore of the,
where's that. What side is that Jerry? The far side of the lake. That would be the south side of
the lake. The unfortunate thing, and whether it be an INT tournament or an AWSA sanctioned
tournament, is you know water movement is critical and especially slalom skiing. And so
normally what we do at 1NT, or AWSA, if there's a conflict on the lake, we normally approach
that conflict and try to work it out with that particular family or homeowner. Even whether.
Berg: So a conflict is somebody, for example just with their pontoon going around or?
Joe Mueller: No, not at all. I would say with like a larger IO that's got 2-3 inner tubes behind it
and it's just constantly running around. It causes rollers and it's just a non-stop action. Where
our tournament is just up, go through a course and drop. This action would be just circular
motion which is constantly stirring up the water and throwing it into the shore. Most the time we
can work with that. And it seemed that the few people that were out there that weren't willing to
work with us. As a matter of fact it was right off the bat in the morning. I happened to be on the
radio. There was a gentleman in an inboard, and this is what's hard for me to believe, is an
inboard ski boat and we had the course set in ready for the tournament to start and the gentleman
came over and asked if he could run the course and of course we want to get the tournament
started so we can finish and we have a life too to go home to, and it was told that he wanted to
run through it. And if he wasn't able to, he'd make the rest of the day miserable for us so we
allowed him to go through the course, not wanting to have any hassles. It was told to him that
the reason we don't let people go through it is because insurance reasons and also we don't want
the course torn up because it takes time to repair it. So we let the person run through it. He did
pull up a few buoys. Took a little bit more time to get it back together but we allowed that to
happen because we didn't want a conflict. And he was right. He didn't come back the rest of the
day. He was perfectly happy with that run and he went back to his home and that was the end of
that. So we're willing to work with dates. The thing we I guess aren't willing to work with is
you know if we've got residents on the lake that aren't willing to have it, I mean we want to work
with those residents. We don't want to have a, we don't want to have a conflict out there. It isn't
worth our effort, which is a lot of time to have a tournament out there if it is going to be ruined.
Pam Mueller: Well plus expense. I mean I do pay $250 a day you know, and I mean it was a
nightmare last year and so I guess you know, I mean if they truly, absolutely don't want us there
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
then I guess you know, I don't want to fight because if we go out there and they make it
miserable for 'us, then it's not going to be any fun either so.
Berg: It sounds a little bit like you've got a PR problem too. I mean if I'm a casual boater and
I'm out there doing it and maybe Fm upsetting you for whatever but if someone in your
tournament flipped me the bird, I'm going to be pretty upset too.
Pam Mueller: I'm not aware of any.
Berg: And you can't be responsible for that either.
Joe Mueller: And to be honest with you, we are aware and we've talked to quite a few people
but you know there are 100, you know 50 some odd people in this tournament and you know we
can't be responsible.
Para Mueller: The only thing I can think of is that maybe it was one of the competitors that was
trying to make a mark and you know Was getting the rollers. I mean that's all I can think of and I
mean I can't, I mean I can certainly have a meeting with them before and talk to them and you
know, we didn't know what we were going to be up against that so it was hard to have a meeting
with my competitors before that when I didn't know that that's what I was up against. You know
I know for a fact that none of my staff did it. Of my volunteers. I mean one of my volunteers is
here and I know he talked to him too and I'd like him to talk.
Joe Mueller: Actually Joe is our safety director.
Pam Mueller: Yeah, he's responsible for making sure that everything is running safely. I mean
if it happened, I'm truly sorry. The only thing I can think of is it would be one of the competitors
who was upset because his run was, you know and obviously that's, you're right. That's
something that we need to address before hand but in that tournament last year I didn't know that
that was something that I was going to have to address.
Berg: Just one other question. Would you be willing to, I think I know the answer to this. Have
you, or would you be willing to sit down with the people that are concerned and try to work
something out?
Joe Mueller: Definitely.
Berg: Some sort of compromise.
Joe Mueller: That's in our best interest.
Pam Mueller: Right. You know the thing about Chanhassen is that, I mean we live in Chaska
and it's nice for us to be close to home. We have a lot of people that we know that come to the
tournament and watch and like I said, I mean I've got a list of 13 you know people that are
members oflNT that live in Chanhassen. You know we promote family fun. I mean that's, we
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
have families who come out and you know, I know a lot of us have teenagers and to me that's
why I'm in it. I've got teenagers and when you're growing up, there's a lot of things they don't
want to do with you. My kids are there every weekend with me, helping me and Joe run the
tournaments and it's, I mean it's...and that's why I do it. I don't compete. I do it because I think
it's important that teenagers have an outlet where they can go and have good, clean fun.
Joe Mueller: You know the exciting thing about it, as I'm looking through these 13 names that
Pam printed out on her mailing list, is we've got Ryan Andrus. Ryan and Janice is his mother.
Andrus made it to the US Championships and they came down to South Carolina with us. He's a
wake boarder. We've got Steve and Jens Smithtoon. If you're watching Channel 11 the other
night. Jens had been skiing on Christmas for like 130 some odd days. They both made it to the
US Championships. It was just a phenomenal. If everybody in this room could have been at the
championships and see 850 competitors and see families get together and spend their vacations.
That's what this is all about so of course we're willing to work with any individuals and dates,
whatever it might take. And if it's not meant to be, then ! guess it's not meant to be you know in
Chanhassen but if we can do something to work it out we will.
Lash: Okay, thanks. Is there anyone else who has a question? Okay.
Moes: One is the timing. You go 8:30 to 4:00 on Saturday and 9:30 to 4:00 on Sunday. Is that
straight through or do you take breaks in-between there? It's pretty much consistent competition
throughout.
Pam Mueller: Right.
Joe Mueller: And there are times we could quit at 2:30. It depends on if we have to do re-rides.
I mean it can be done as early as 2:00-2:30. It depends on how many competitors sign up.
Pam Mueller: Yeah, I mean actually last year, like I said the reason it took us a little bit longer
was because we did have to do a lot of re-rides because of the waves and, you know we do, I
mean we can go and then wait a few. I felt like we could have worked with each other last year
and made it work and still have gotten done.
Howe: How late did it go last year?
Pam Mueller: I want to say probably 3:30-4:00. But we could have been done, because
competitor wise you know...more crucial. I mean Sunday with the wake-boarders, the waves
aren't that big of an issue because actually the bigger the, you know they like the big wake but
the slalom skiing is where, on Saturday where it was more of an issue and that was the day that it
ended up going longer because of the re-rides.
Lash: Do you guys post signs or how do people, are people aware that this is going on? Outside
people who are coming.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Para Mueller: Yes, and actually Chanhassen Bank is one of our sponsors. Kevin McShane
actually sponsors the title to it. We have event guys that go out so they're mailed all over and
then we put up posters. You know the pro shops and the boat shops have posters that are up and
you know and promoting it and then also at the boat show then we hand out the fliers with the
schedules because we actually have the people that will follow throughout the tournaments
because you accumulate points through the season and then whoever's in first place goes onto the
championship which is people from all over the United States.
Lash: How about at the park? So ifI showed up at the park I would know that there's some kind
ofa.
Pam Mueller: Yes. Oh yeah. We have banners. We put up a whole bunch of banners and we
have you know, with 1NT, yeah so they do. But that's again, I mean we've had people come and
picnic right with us that you know, I mean it's, we don't turn anybody away. You know I mean,
and actually 9 times out of 10 they'll sit there and watch it anyway because it's fun to watch.
Lash: Okay. Okay we'll open it up to the residents who are here tonight.
Al Klingelhutz: Good evening. Park and Rec Chair and members. I'm A1 Klingelhutz and I live
at 8600 Great Plains Boulevard. On the south shore of Lake Susan. You know the first year
when this tournament took place it didn't seem like much. There probably was 40 or 50 people
on the north shore of Lake Susan. Maybe 10 or 12 or 15 competitive boats out there. The next
year it got a little bigger and last year it was really large. They said 100 people but I'm willing to
wager at any one time there probably was 150 people standing on the shore. I've been pretty
open about park space. I was involved in Lake Ann Park. ! was involved in Bandimere Park. I
was very involved in letting a public approach come onto Lake Susan. I really think the lakes
should be made available to a lot of the residents of Chanhassen. We lakeshore owners on the
lake pay probably 1/3 higher taxes because we are on the lake, and probably any of you that live
on a lake know that your taxes are somewhat higher. You get assessed by the front footage. I
think the thing that concerns me more than anything is the fact that last year prior to the
tournament, at least 6 weeks prior to the tournament, from 5:00 to dark they had their buoys out
there and were practicing at least 4 or 5 nights a week. It isn't only a two day tournament. It's a
practice tournament where people come that they know they're going to be on Lake Susan. They
come there. They set out their buoys, just like they are for the tournament, and they continuously
go back and forth. It isn't only one boat. Five boats one night last week was out, or last spring. I
was out with my pontoon and they came awful close to my shore and I yelled at one of them and
he said, hey I've got just as much right on this lake as you have. I said yes you have but I says, it
seems odd that you should be out here every night practicing and not letting any of the residents
on Lake Susan have a quiet evening on the lake so they can fish. Now when you've got a
pontoon and you get these waves from these big boats, I've got two anchors on it and they're
pretty heavy and yes, I can hold it where I want to hold it on the lake. It's just, the waves just
kind of keep of rolling along. And that is my biggest concern. Lake Susan is a 90 acre lake.
DNR spent quite a lot of money sealing the bottom on it. You get these big boats on there
constantly and they keep stirring it up. In the morning you go down there the water's pretty clear.
You can see the bottom of the lake in 3, 4, 5 feet of water. But you go down there at 8:30 at
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
night after all these speed boats are on there, you don't see the bottom of the lake in a foot of
water. Now you can't tell me that boats don't turn up the lake. It has a big effect, especially on a
small lake like Lake Susan. It wasn't only when the lake was down, which it is right now. But
last summer we had a lot of high water on the lake. In fact it was up onto the lakeshore. And
these boats were out there within 150 feet of the lakeshore going with their big boats back and
forth. On their ski run. They go through the run. Come back and there was a lot of wave action.
A lot of good black soil from the shoreline went directly into the lake. I can't quite see what
happened, especially last year, with all the practice. They didn't even stop after the tournament.
They continued to come after the tournament and use that lake and it was just the prime time
when people were home from work that the residents themselves use the lake. To me it's putting
much too heavy a burden on the lake the size of Lake Susan. Thank you. If you have any
questions, I'd like to try to answer them for you.
Lash: Thanks Al. Any questions for Al?
Franks: Al, what's the most important negative about the tournament to you?
A1 Klingelhutz: Well I think the most important negative is the practice runs that are done 6
weeks prior to the tournament, pretty near every night. And the people on the lake who would
like to enjoy the lake a little bit, and some of the Chanhassen residents who come out there to
fish would like to go out there and fish, it's very disturbing to see all those waves rocking your
pontoon or boat around. If the tournament only was the one or two days, I don't think you'd
have many objections but the length of the time and people want to win tournaments. And they
know it's going to be held on Lake Susan. What do the people that play ball? They go and
practice every night of the week. Or a basketball team. The kid goes 3, 4 nights a week to
practice basketball. It's the same thing with this tournament. They're out there with their boats,
they set up their buoys and practice and there isn't only 2 boats on the lake, there's 4 or 5 on the
lake at the same time. So that's one of my biggest concerns. Thank you.
Lash: 1 guess I'd be, I'd like to kind of hook on Rod's question. I mean do you really feel that if
the tournament wasn't there that all of a sudden all the skiers and slalom people would just not
come to Lake Susan anymore?
A1 Klingelhutz: Well, it seemed that after the tournament started there is when we really got the
slalom skiers on the lake. I think they like the lake because there's high banks all the way around
it. There isn't too many waves around the take. Even if it's windy out. The lake is a pretty
protected lake from the wind and I understand that's one of the things that the skiers on these
slalom courses really like. The quiet lake. And Lake Susan is a fairly quiet lake until the boats
get on it and then they provide a lot of wake. I put some rock on my lakeshore and they didn't
have quite enough and last week one day I hauled in some rock. My son hauled some in from the
field again. I figure well I'm going to finish this little area here. And actually the shoreline had
receded over 2 feet from where I had placed the rocks and where they weren't. So you know
we've got some problems with wakes on Lake Susan too.
Moes: What I'm hearing is that skiers...are setting up a system.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
A1 Klingelhutz: Very few boats are ever out there with buoys on a lake doing the slalom course
or whatever they call it, but every year since the tournament started, they're coming out earlier
and earlier and more and more to practice on Lake Susan so that they can be very competitive in
the tournament.
Moes: And are they bringing the buoy system with them?
Al Klingelhutz: They're bringing the buoy systems in.
Moes: Is that something that they can bring a buoy system on...slalom course on the lakes? I'm
not sure what the guidelines are.
Ruegemer: I'm not exactly positive what the guidelines are either but it's my understanding that
if it's a temporary type ora use, you can bring that in and put those in. As long as you don't have
them all the time.
Moes: So like for the tournament they needed to get approval from other.
Ruegemer: Carver County.
Moes: Carver County...and in this environment when they're doing it...
Gene Klein: Hi, my name is Gene Klein. I live at 8412 Great Plains Boulevard. I'm on the
southeast end of the lake, down from Al. I was out on the lake last year and was confronted by
some of the people on the lake. I'll give you my side of the story of kind of what happened. I
probably didn't hit the lake until late afternoon because I had a baseball tournament that morning
with the kids. We came home. It was a 90 degree hot day. Went out to use the lake and I grew
up on the lake and I hear Al's frustration is, it's a public access on the lake now and every year
there's more and more boats. But what seemed to happen is, they rented the pavilion to use as
their headquarters there but they also tried to use the lake as their own. They were very, we had
some people that were at the baseball tournament with us that came, were going to drop their
boat on the lake. They had my daughter with them and they were going to come across and we
were going to spend the afternoon on the lake. I had approximately 6 kids with me and they were
bringing 3 or 4 more with them. While I was out on the lake before these other people came and
I was confronted by the people on the lake, one of the safety boats and asked to stay 100 feet
away and I said I would do my best. I said it is a small lake. It's a 93 acre lake. The way they
have the course set up, they utilize half the lake. Okay, that cuts it down to a 45 acre lake. On
the east, southeast side of the lake it's very shallow. You have to stay out a good 100-150 feet to
maintain a depth for any size boat, which now makes it a very, very small lake. You're working
in a very small eye. So I did as they asked. I stayed 100 feet away from their buoys. Ran back
around and I was confronted a second time and asked how long I was going to be out there. And
I said you know I'll probably be all afternoon. I says we have people coming over and they asked
well you know can we take turns. I says well yeah, that's really not an option. I said I had a boat
full of kids waiting. We had plans too and we wanted to use the lake. I says we're doing our
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
best. We're staying away from you. I'm doing the best I can do. You know I says it's, it was not
an option as far as I was concerned. So we continued on. A third time I was approached by all
the boats and asked if I could just do a straight line back and forth and stay way to my side of the
lake. And by this time I had talked to a couple of the different neighbors that were out there and
one of the neighbors had been told he should not be able to put his boat on. Told him to go to a
different lake. The boat that was bringing my daughter over came over and they were told the
same thing. They were told to go to a different lake. That they could not be put on the boat.
Lake Susan has a public access. That means it's a public lake. If they want to have a
tournament, I recommend. I don't mind the tournament but I recommend they do like you say,
pick an earlier weekend. I think other years it's been a lot colder. I mean this fall, spring would
be better. But if you have it in the middle of the summer when it's warm out, that boat on any
given day is going to have 5 to 10 boats, the lake is going to have 5 to 10 boats on it. There's
approximately 10 power boats from people that live right on the lake. I would love to go out
there and not have anybody bothering me also. I like to fish like A1 does. I like to use the lake
for skiing and tubing, but I think what they're trying to say is they want nobody else out on the
lake and that's just not realistic on this size of a lake. That's all I have.
Lash: Anybody have a question for Gene? Okay, thanks.
Jim Jacoby: Hi, my name's Jim Jacoby. I'm 8410 Great Plains Boulevard and what Gene has
indicated is what I heard too. Now I wasn't around Saturday at all so I don't know what
happened but Sunday I was out later in the day and at the end of the day I was, somebody had to
come over and make a nice comment to say thanks for wrecking our tournament when I hadn't
even been out there all weekend and so that was not, I didn't appreciate that and I heard the same
thing from the other neighbors. I just want to reiterate everything Gene and A1 had said is
consistent with what I've heard from the neighbors and what I also saw. Any questions?
Lash: Thanks Jim. Anyone else?
Joe Brandenberg: My name's Joe Brandenberg. I live in Eden Prairie and have been a part. of the
tournament since the inception and just after listening to everything I just had a couple of
comments. One, I can appreciate the concern of the homeowners. I used to live on Lake Johanna
in Arden Hills for a number of years and was the Waterfront Director in Northwest College there
and we had a slalom course. I was on the homeowners board at the same time representing a
homeowner and as the waterfront director for the college. And we taught sailing and canoeing
and water-skiing professionally and so I dealt with a lot of different issues and had a good rapport
with the homeowners on the lake. A lot of that being because we, the lake was a safer place
because we were out there all the time. I was two years ago State Tournament Safety Director
and I was the boat who putted over I think the second time when the one gentleman said and I
went over and said can we, you know wait or how long will you be out here. We had I think at
that point 3 or 4 skiers left and my concern was when you're slalom skiing, if you hit big waves
the potential for serious injury is very great to the skiers because it throws you off your skiing so
that was my main concern. With the deal. As far as the practice and all that. Those people may
or may not have had anything to do with the tournament and one thing with the economy being
good is that on any lake that I've been on, including the one I lived on, there are more fishing
9
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
boats. There are more personal watercraft. There are more ski boats. There are more inboard
outboards and boating is growing and it's becoming a more popular sport and skiing is growing
and becoming a more popular sport. So I'm not sure that that's unique to this lake. I think it's a
challenge that's being faced all around the Twin Cities area. So I'm not aware of anyone at any
of our tournaments. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened but I'm not aware of anyone ever
trying to control the public boat launches. There's only one tournament that we have that's not at
a public site. All the others are and so there is a real effort to try to work with the people there.
And as far as people being flipped off or anything like that. Having been the waterfront director
at the college I had employees and I hope nobody ever there ever did anything like ihat. I never
heard about anything like that but the best effort I could do in training, you still can't control
what everybody's going to do and if that happened, that's unfortunate. If there were bad attitudes
expressed toward people, I think that's unfortunate as well. You know either direction but I
guess my thoughts, as I sit and listen to this is, I'm pretty, you know I understand the concerns as
far as being a homeowner on the lake. I also understand from the tournament point of view and
to me it really comes down to I guess what the City wants to do. As far as the erosion, that
really, you know some lakes in the Twin Cities area have been closed to boats, anything over 5
horsepower or 10 horsepower, that kind of thing. There's at least one in Eden Prairie that way.
So really I guess you know it's going to be a challenge in years to come unless the economy gets
really bad and people can't afford boat gas anymore. But so, I guess I'd just like to see the best
thing happen for everybody involved, whatever that is and I know Joe and Pam are, if it's not
going to be a site that would be compatible with having a tournament, then they're open to
looking somewhere else. You know but if it can be worked out, I know they're open to that too
so. I hope it can all be worked out so it's good for everybody. So if you have any questions.
Berg: It sounds like you've had lots of experience in working with neighbors as well as with
boaters. I'm not saying not necessarily right now but that you can think of that might, in terms of
meeting with these neighbors and addressing the concerns. Do you think there's any reasonable
hope that anything could be worked out?
Joe Brandenberg: Well I think there is, sure. I always think that's possible. And I think
probably they, you know there's some legitimate concerns that are being expressed so I
understand that and I think you know, if a meeting could take place or it could be talked out in a
happy medium of some sort could be reached, that would be great. But certain things, you know
they live on the lake. They do pay higher taxes. I know that. You know they want to be out
there to use the lake. And for a tournament to take place certain things have to happen too and if
the two can't coexist, then they just need to go in two different directions. I can't speak for the
homeowners because I don't know what their individual feelings are but I would sure like to see
that as an option before it's you know just dismissed but it's your city so you need to decide
what's best for city and for the people that live there.
Lash: Okay, thanks. Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to address the commission?
Okay, seeing no other comments we'll close public comments and go to the commission. We'll
open it down there with you Mike.
Howe: Thank you.
10
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Lash: You're welcome.
Howe: I just really would build on what Fred said. I mean I think both sides here are reasonable
people. You both have a right to use the lake. As far as erosion and shoreline, my thinking on
that was that's a DNR issue. I don't think we or even the City Council can really dictate no wake
zones and such like that but it seems to me there are two options here. One is to change the date,
and I realize that maybe the July 8th and 9th, that's the first big weekend after Independence Day.
That's a big family time. Maybe there's a date that's better suited when the lake wouldn't be
quite as used. Just a thought. Secondthing. I think Fred's right. Both sides, you need to sit
down and talk. I mean your reasonable people. Here's what you can expect fi'om us. One side
usually you can expect from us. The other side and work it out. I think it can be worked out. I
don't think, you know that would be the next step in my mind. I don't have an answer. That's
all I have.
Lash: Thanks Mike.
Moes: I think Mike did a good job of summarizing...for the groups to get together and...dates,
then work on the dates. Scheduling throughout there within the date. Taking breaks. Whatever
is appropriate. There's a lot of options available.
Lash: Rod.
Franks: I've enjoyed the tournament...walked around the lake and sit down and watch, but I've
also been bothered Al by the boat noise in the evening as well. It makes it all the way into our
neighborhood in Chanhassen Hills so that's also been a little bit of a bother to me. I know people
organizing the tournament, you probably don't have control of that. I had the same question. It
might be something worth checking into is a permit required to set down a buoy course. That
might be one way to control that type of activity in that case. I haven't heard anything today that
seems like an insurmountable conflict, l.t appears to me that we do have people with some kind
of competing interests but these interests I don't think need to happen to the exclusion of the
other. I think it's certainly a situation where people are capable of finding some way to work
together for the benefit of boat. Everyone represented here is interested in the same sport, just
wanting to do it at the same time, same place, different way and since we all have a similar
interest in boating, I think there's certainly a place here to sit down and make some arrangement
where maybe not everybody's completely satisfied but at least all of your needs, or most of your
needs are being met. One of the things that strikes me too for the 1NT applicant is to make sure
that everyone has all the information significantly ahead of time and that may be...last year that
not everybody got that information when planning gatherings and events. That can be real
frustrating. But if you had knowledge ahead of time what's going to be on the lake and you of
course can also make appropriate plans as well. Jan, I'm not sure if we can make some kind of
recommendation to have them meet... What would the structure be? Jerry?
Lash: Here would be my first choice.
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Berg: Let's see who isn't here. Todd.
Lash: I guess I would think we certainly could do that and I would suggest some type of an
agreement between all these parties before we would even make a motion.
Franks: So it's not necessary for us to make a definitive motion this?
Lash: ...table it based on...
Franks: Can I ask a question of the tournament organizers?
Lash: Sure.
Franks: When would be the date that you would need a definite date so you could handle your
advertisement?
Pam Mueller's comments were not picked up on the tape.
Lash: That would be for sure the latest you could go?
Pam Mueller: Right... Actually the Boat Show...
Franks: So what date would you need?
Pam Mueller: ...
Lash: So that gives us a month. Okay.
Moes: Don't we meet the 14th of December?
Lash; ...
Franks: By the 14th have the meeting and then we can take action on the 14th. That's all.
Lash: Okay. Yeah, well clearly there's you know some problems and I agree with all the other
comments that I think these certainly could be worked out to everyone's satisfaction. I think that
given the lake, given the conditions and given the economy and everything that was said, I think
you're going to have boaters and tubers there all the time, whether the tournament's going on or
not. Because if they're continuing to ski after the tournament, they're not practicing for the
tournament anymore. They're just having fun and they're bettering their skills so I don't know
that pulling the plug on the tournament is going to cut down that much on the traffic that you're
experiencing. I think probably every lake homeowners is experiencing that frustration right now
but I think too that this needs to be worked out and I think it can be worked out. I have a
question also for Pam or Joe. Do most of the participants wear, you know wet suits and things
like that that help them stay warm? Skiing and boarding or.
12
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Pam Mueller: Yes. I mean there are...
Lash: But you could have it in June, couldn't you?
Pam Mueller: Oh definitely.
Lash: I mean I'm not talking about February you know but. No, no, no. No, but I mean you
know a lot of times, the first couple weeks of June a lot of times there' s, or later in the season a
lot of people aren't as enthusiastic about the lake sports anymore. I know the attendance at Lake
Ann goes way down in August just because people get kind of tired of some of those things. But
I think July probably really would be a problem because that is just the peak month, especially
that weekend because it's when everybody's on vacation and with the 4th and everything so I
would definitely want you to reconsider the date and look at something that's, you know if you're
wearing protective clothing anyway, the water temperature isn't going to be a huge factor to you
where it will be for all the other little kids who want to go out and tube and that kind of thing.
Para Mueller: In the past we've had it you know more towards...
Lash: I think looking at different dates would probably go a long way with the neighbors and I
would strongly encourage a letter. If you guys want to make it and have the city send it or if you
want to have Jerry try to come up with something, letting all the lake residents know this is the
weekend that this tournament is going to be going on. These are the kinds of things that you can
expect. If you have any difficulty with anyone please look for Pam or Joe Mueller. They'll have
on the bright yellow hat or whatever you want to do so that they know who they can go and talk
to directly if they have a problem and say you certainly would want to work through any of this.
You know you want to try and have a successful thing and you know. You know what I'm
talking about. But I think if people know ahead of time, that may help and then the date may
help...
Para Mueller: ...
Ruegemer: There was in the initial permit.
Berg: It sounds like they need a lot more than dates though.
Lash: You know this is what they can expect and I definitely think you know if they know that
you're trying to make an effort to make sure that problems don't happen and who to talk to too.
If someone, and you can't control everyone's behavior and we know that but people who are out
there are going to...that's all there is to it and at least if they know who they can go and you
know vent to, it makes them feel like they have a little more control over the situation so. If it's a
shot at trying to solve the whole thing. Fred, you got anything?
Berg: Just a couple questions. Do you have any control over the people who practice 5 or 6
weeks ahead of time?
13
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Pam Mueller: You know what, I guess I'd...As far as I know, I don't...
Joe Mueller: Quite honestly, Lake Susan...
Berg: It sounds like Lake Susan has been discovered.
Pam Mueller: Well you have to realize that with the amount of boats...
Berg: One other thought, I don't know if they're all workable in terms of compromises and
working things out with the neighbors and how it would work into your schedules. Maybe
opening up the course to the people around the lake. Let them run it once or twice might be
something they would enjoy too.
Pam Mueller: ...
Berg: Okay, that's all.
Lash: Okay, thanks. Jay.
Karlovich: Belbre I make a comment, Jerry I just want to ask you one question. How many
residents approximately are there on Lake Susan?
Ruegemer: I don't know that for a fact. ! don't know how many are on.
Karlovich: 100 or? Maybe the residents...
Ruegemer: These were 500 feet. The 500 foot notification.
Karlovich: The comment I want to make to Gene, A1 and Jim is first of all, I'm a Park and
Recreation Commission member. I was appointed by the City Council and we're supposed to be
champions of recreation. This has to go in fi'ont of the City Council however. I think we're
going to have to vote for the recreational portion of this. We have a recommendation from our
staff member to approve it but if I was the City Council member and I had a petition from 18, 20
or even a majority of the people that lived on the lake that didn't want the tournament to go, I
think the City Council is the body that's elected by you. They're not a commission that's
appointed by the City Council to champion the parks and the recreation. I think that if you don't
want to work things out or things can't be worked out, and you do have the support of the people
that live on the lake, I just think if I was the Mayor or any of the council members, I would want
to see a petition and I would want to see what people who elected me and put me into office want
done here. We have a letter in the file here from Lawrence Harris and he isn't totally against it.
He just wants like the parties to work together but the one thing that I guess I would encourage
you is that just for the City Council's benefit to, you know there are three of you here tonight and
you're in front of a park and recreation commission where we're supposed to champion parks
14
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
and recreation. I guess ifI was up here, if there is a lot of negative support for this program that I
at least would give some input to the City Council. That's the only statement that I have.
Lash: One quick question. When will the City Council meet in December?
Ruegemer: I keep them upstairs with the dates. They're probably early...
Lash: Don't they meet every other Monday?
Ruegemer: With work sessions, every Monday with the work sessions.
Lash: So chances are they would meet...
Ruegemer: I could go upstairs and get the meeting schedule.
Lash: We really should know that before we go much further. Is there anybody else who needs
to say anything or is there someone who's ready for a motion?
Al Klingelhutz: One question?
Lash: Sure Al.
A1 Klingelhutz: ...neighbors together...
Lash: That's what we're going to figure out. We need to find out when City Council's going to
meet because if it has to come back to us and then go to City Council, we've got to make sure
that they're going to be meeting at a time after our, and we meet on the 14th of December so we
would want you guys to be able to have time to meet, come to some kind of an agreement, or not,
whatever, so we can act on it on the 14th and it can go to the City Council at their next meeting.
That's what we need to find out what their schedule is.
A1 Klingelhutz: ...
Berg: Well I think we're letting both sides down if we don't at least try to do. I don't think
there's any harm in attempting to see if we can work out a compromise. If it can't be done, it
can't be done. But I'd like to make it more than one vote. I'd like to at least know that all
avenues were explored before we do that.
Lash: And that's why we think, I personally I think the first thing you guys would have to do is
come up with a date that is agreeable to everyone.
Berg: Maybe that's where the compromise lies. And that's I think should be a relatively easy
thing for both sides to sit down and discuss.
Audience: ...
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Lash: Okay, Jerry's what's the time schedule?
Ruegemer: The next Council meeting is the 13th. Work session is the 20th.
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Lash: That would be enough time for you wouldn't it Pam? Okay. So now we've got a time
frame to work with here. Everyone's been thinking about how to make this motion. Who's
ready to do that?
Berg: Well I'd move that we table this item until our December 14th meeting when we can have
input again as to what happened after a meeting of the interested parties.
Lash: Okay.
Berg: I move that staff at least facilitate getting the two sides together.
Lash: Is there a second to that motion?
Howe: I'll second that.
Berg moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on the
request for a Public Gathering Permit for a INT Water Skiing Tournament on Lake Susan
and direct staff to facilitate a meeting between the interested parties before the Park and
Recreation Commission meeting on December 14, 1999. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
USE OF NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS FOR YOUTH ATHLETICS IN 2000.
Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Lash. We had discussed this item previously at a previous
commission meeting earlier. At a meeting last spring before the season got started. At that time
the commission wanted to take a look at with the new community parks coming on line with the
redevelopment of City Center Park and Bandimere Community Park, wanted to address the issue
at that time. To look at eliminating the use of neighborhood parks and my recollection was that
Meadow Green Park, North Lotus, Carver Beach and Rice Marsh Parks. At this time I would
like to discuss that with the commission. We all, with the commission and staff have been
waiting a long time for Bandimere and City Center to be developed and redeveloped. At this
time it looks like they are going to be ready to go by spring of 2000 which is great. And they will
help us out tremendously. We're adding additional soccer fields and baseball, softball fields
which will certainly be welcomed by the commission. Or by the Athletic Associations in town
and that serve our residents. At this time I do believe that even with the newly developed
facilities, we are growing tremendously across all the associations, anywhere from 10% to 20% a
year for soccer, baseball, that type of thing. I really think that we would be doing ourselves a
disservice to totally eliminate the use of these areas. With the development of the parks, our
16
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
newly developed parks, it certainly will help take some pressure off these areas. That certainly is
what I would like to propose at this time is that we take a look at scheduling for the year 2000
and we take a look at and work with the athletic associations to limit the use of these. I know the
CAA for example at Rice Marsh has really tried to downsize their activities out at that park in the
last couple of years. And I know that they were down there at least 1 to 2 days a week there. So
they really are trying to make a really concerted effort to minimize play and really be less
disruptive to the neighborhood and to the park itself down there. I do, I am recommending that
we do take a look at these sites and adopt kind of the guidelines listed below as kind of a
schedule and kind of an allotment so to speak between the associations. Number of days per
week. And we not totally eliminate play. I think we'd really have a hard time in the future to get
back into those parks. I know the neighborhoods are used to having organized play in this area
and I think if we eliminate these we really would be, we're not gaining anything by adding new
facilities. We're just basically staying even or going backwards eventually. But We can certainly
look at to schedule these and I know that the associations are really going to take a look at what
their numbers are this coming year and in the upcoming years after that. Really look at demand.
If there is no demand, or if we can do other creative scheduling efforts up here at City Center,
Bandimere and some of the other types of non-neighborhood park areas, we certainly will do that
to eliminate as much as we can at these neighborhood areas. Really to be friendly with the
neighborhoods and to not schedule those types of activities or games. So really, and I know
Frank and Larry...is here with the Chan-Chaska Soccer Club .... here with the Chanhassen
Athletic Association. They have been very cooperative in trying to look at alternative types of
options in scheduling so we are sensitive and we are working towards looking at creative ways to
be less disruptive to the neighborhood. So at this time ! am recommending that the Park and Rec
Commission allow organized activities, athletic play at Meadow Green, North Lotus, Carver
Beach, Rice Marsh. It is also recommended that organized play be limited to the number of dates
listed, it'd actually be below on this. The next page according to that table.
Lash: Okay, anybody have a question for Jerry?
Moes: Jerry, for example out at Meadow Green is 4 days per week. 2 days for soccer and 2 days
for baseball. On a 7 day, how does the 4 days per week get to that?
Ruegemer: Basically Monday through Thursday.
Moes: Okay, so that's what the recommendation is?
Howe: Do we get a lot of complaints? Do we get complaints from people using the parks or
not?
Ruegemer: I don't personally receive a lot of complaints. I know in the past some limited
facilities we have done two activities at one time and that we're working to eliminate that. So
soccer and baseball will probably be playing on a different night, So you potentially you know,
eliminate some of those cars and...that type of thing.
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Moes: Of the parks listed, how much activity is going on now? Within them I guess over the
week.
Ruegemer: These areas, there isn't really anything scheduled as far as weekends. You know that
doesn't mean that there isn't an activity going on. You may take your soccer team up to Meadow
Green or you might take your soccer team up to North Lotus on an unofficial type of basis and
have a practice. We don't have control of that. We obviously don't encourage that. I mean we
can't control it. It's kind of like controlling water skiers on Lake Susan. People have their own
objectives and what they need to do so.
Berg: Except for Rice Marsh really is sort of a unique parks. They're really not neighborhood
parks. They're really not a community park.
Ruegemer: Right. Somewhere in-between.
Berg: Yeah, and I think the implication is going to be that they'll always be available for softball
and soccer games... What's the uses now? Typically at Meadow Green, what would the uses be
last summer?
Ruegemer: Monday through Friday.
Berg: You'-re proposing cutting out a day.
Ruegemer: Cutting back one day and then also eliminating two activities at one time.
Lash: How about Carver Beach?
Ruegemer: ...
Lash: So essentially Meadow Green was really 7 days a week. Saturday and Sunday and...
Karlovich: One of the comments ! have to make is, is this neighborhood disruption really a
problem or not Jerry? Or are we getting lots of complaints or? My opinion is what good is a
park if it's not being used and the other thing is, if we make a motion that limits these fields, I
think we're kind of taking our discretion away from the city staff. I don't even know if we
should be micro managing this and just deferring to the city staff to use their best discretion to
regulate the use of the parks.
Franks: I was thinking along the same lines. Both in that I think that neighborhood parks...and I
think of Rice Marsh down in that, down in the hole and you know the cars park everywhere.
Then there's Chan Hills is a much nicer field and find a place to park. I'm wondering if there's
any way to spread it around...I don't know Frank...
Frank Scott: ...
18
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Ruegemer: ...Sunset Ridge. You know new development.
Lash: That one has potential.
Franks: That's the other one.
Ruegemer: The parking lot is in as part of that development.
Franks: Well I guess my thinking was Jerry...so if each neighborhood worries about impact, if
the neighborhood only has to put up with one night a weekend instead of one neighborhood
having to, I mean that might make it easier for everybody all around... I'm also in agreement
with Jay saying the same thing. Do we want to be in such a specific motion or make more of a
generalized motion about it would be our intent as a commission to minimize impact as much
scheduling allowed in parks... Something along those types of lines to really give, because we're
not really sure exactly what the demand is going to be and how it will increase.
Lash: Frank, Frank. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're going to have to come up here because I'm
afraid you're not going to be getting picked up on the tapes.
Frank Scott: The doubling up we did was we would have two games on a single park in a night.
We'd rather not do that even with the little ones. We'd like to have it so that they could have a
practice period before the game because they learn a lot more in practice but of course they want
the game in there. So like out front here we would have one at 6:30 and then another one at 7:30
or 6:00 and 7:00. We would like to just be able to do one game a night on a field and then the
people could stay longer if they chose to or not. They could come earlier and kind of be a lot
more flexible. And we did that up through 8 year olds last year. We actually would have two
games on a single field. So we were crunched last year a little bit and it would be nice if we
could open that up. Have you got any questions I could answer for you?
Lash: I just, I have one comment and that's about Rice Marsh. And that has been one of my
goals for years is to get the organized sports out of there. And none of you, with the exception of
Fred, probably has had to deal with what it's like down at Rice Marsh Lake because your kids
have gotten into this yet. But I have kids in CAA and Rice Marsh Lake, getting in and out of was
a traffic nightmare. It's the end of a little cul-de-sac. Totally inadequate parking. Totally
inadequate and when you've got two teams down there and you've got sometimes two parents
each driving a car because somebody's got to come late, and somebody's got to leave early to
take somebody else somewhere and you didn't get off work, it's just a parking nightmare and it's
got to be a nightmare for the residents so that was one of my main motivations for even having
this referendum was to be able to get organized sports out of Rice Marsh Lake because I think
that's a horrible situation. So the very most I'd want to see anyone have to put up with that is
one night a week. Whether you're going as a participant or you're living there. So I just as soon
just pull it totally out of Rice Marsh Lake but I think Sunset Ridge would have much better
parking situation. And I'm not sure where else. We could look at it but I would agree that if we
share the joy, share the wealth and spread it around probably CAA will be happier. You'll have
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
more flexibility and the residents, plus we are utilizing the parks to the best capacity for getting
active play time in each one.
Franks: In seeing the weeds pop up in that nice infield on Chanhassen Hills just bothers me.
Lash: What's the parking like there though?
Franks: About four stalls.
Lash: Yeah see it's just.
Ruegemer: I think it's 10. Is it 107
Franks: Oh it's 10. That big?
Ruegemer: I think it's a little bit more than 6 but it's not huge by any means.
Franks: Speed is right there as well.
Lash: I mean you can easily estimate 20 cars, right?
Frank Scott: When you look at Carver Beach, they usually, there's probably about 20 cars up
there. That's probably true.
Lash: So pretty soon they're parking all over and it is an infringement that it really wasn't
intended.
Franks: Right. But ! mean why should...
Frank Scott: If we had one game a night, then we wouldn't have the problem of second game
coming and trying to find a place to park while the first game's still there. So that would
certainly alleviate a lot of that problem.
Moes: I guess what I'm hearing is that, having the ability to spread the activity out over the
different parks allows the... On the one side it's, hopefully it's a benefit to the neighborhood...
two groups of cars... On the second side, it provides a benefit for the participants as well because
a lot of them are thrown into a game...
Lash: Would this have an affect Jerry...maintaining the parks or having?
Ruegemer: Not this.
Franks: Would it be more dealing with...
20
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Ruegemer: Initially I'm sure. I mean right now at Sunset Ridge, Chan Hills aren't officially.
There's practices happening right now that I know of. If there's organized type activities, you
certainly run the risk of receiving a few letters and calls but we put up with that every year so I
mean it's not that big of a thing.
Karlovich: If you want to let Rice Marsh, I think you should, we can do that. Otherwise we
should just limit our micro management and let Jerry handle it.
Berg: I would agree with that very strongly. I agree with Jan too on Rice Marsh. I've gone to a
number of games and parked three blocks away. I'm not objecting to the walk, I'm objecting to
the use of the neighborhood. Rice Marsh is unique. I'm a little uncomfortable with all of a
sudden we're going to have organized sports in neighborhood parks. We've had a pretty set
philosophy on this commission that we don't do that. I'm hearing a lot of well, we're going to
get letters and complaints and we'll deal with that but why do we want to put ourselves in a
position where we're getting letters and complaints and calls and concerns. I guess I'd like to
discuss it more fully I guess. This is a pretty big shift in our philosophy.
Moes: Maybe I'm confused then...we're having organized sports at these facilities today, aren't
we.'?
Lash: Just these.
Moes: ...
Berg: Well I'm hearing we're going to Sunset Ridge. Looking at Sunset Ridge and Chanhassen
Hills.
Karlovich: I'm seeing these as.
Berg: The other three on this list is again I think fairly unique and they're very lin-ge, wide open
spaces that people I think have come to expect there's going to be CAA or organized activities
there. I'm not so sure that we aren't going to get a lot of complaints from the neighbors when we
start filling their streets with cars for even one game.
Lash: Sunset Ridge has very ample parking...
Berg: That I can understand and I'd be willing to look at that because I think it goes into that... I
thought with City Center and Bandimere we were going to be relieving ourselves a little bit of
pressure so we didn't have to use the neighborhood parks. IfI were older I think I'd be reminded
of that. Whether that came...why we originally were against having organized sports in these
smaller parks. At least talk that through again.
Karlovich: See I'm new to the commission. I'm not aware of this philosophy or any of the
problems in the past or even the promises that have been made by you. As a new member, we
didn't want to live by the park or I'd buy the house next to the park...
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Berg: I don't see that as the issue. I see the issue as it is a neighborhood park and I think they
have the right to expect that there aren't going to be cars coming and going in front of your
house.
Lash: And that precedence too.
Berg: From outside of the neighborhood. See if it's in the neighborhood it's one thing. But if
you come from my neighborhood to yours to play ball, then I would see that as being Something I
wasn't bargaining for.
Lash: ...when it happened, whether you live there and bought the house by a park or not, you'd
still be...40 people were stomping through the back of your yard.
Moes: Along those lines, I do know from past experience...a think a really good, excellent job
of grouping teams together based on...
Lash: Do you guys do that? Not when my kids were in but.
Moes: If half the team, if not more ....class at school. Maybe that's the next step forward but
they are.
Berg: Yeah, that's new.
Moes: Local facilities...I commend you for that.
Franks: ...it's one of those policies that I always questioned from a personal perspective. And I
guess I would be...park is sitting idle...then I would, instead of creating a hardship fbr
participants or residents of other parts of the city, really look...
Berg: It seems like we have a bit of an...knowing what the impact of City Center especially is
going to be. In terms of relieving pressure from others.
Frank Scott: You've got to realize though that really City Center used to have three fields on it
so you now have added one additional field to City Center. It's not a big upgrade. We had three
for years and years and then we had the two out in front here we had to use when this was closed
up so by giving me one up there, you're really, I broke even now. And if you take Carver Beach
away and the other ones, what you gave me at Bandimere isn't going to, is not a plus so basically
we don't have many more parks. They're better parks. They're nicer looking parks but space
wise, it's about a break even and has been.
Berg: That's why I would support too...in my mind plug in more at Carver Beach. Which again
is one of those that is a neighborhood community park.
Howe: Should we take out Rice Marsh? You have Sunset Ridge?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Lash: I think Sunset Ridge would be much more conducive to that kind of activity than Rice
Marsh.
Frank Scott: Let me say if you'd rather not cause a controversy of pulling one off and putting
another one on, if you wanted to generalize. He could tell me, use Rice Marsh as your last resort
and I would certainly do that so rather than define something, maybe it's easier just to say let him
handle it and not use Rice Marsh except if you have to or something like that.
Franks: I guess my feeling is that if we move it from Rice Marsh, and you get into a crunch and
find you have to move back...creating more problems then actually using... Maybe start out at
Sunset Ridge and then transition it over to Sunset.
Lash: And if you just used Rice Marsh as a practice. That's only team going down instead of
two teams. You could park with one team.
Larry Dorn: One of the, if I can interrupt. One of the things we have been doing over the last
couple years.
Frank Scott: Do you want to state your name and address for the record.
Larry Dorn: Oh, my name is Larry Dom. I live in 16 Warner Circle in Chaska. I represent the
Chan-Chaska Soccer Club as Field Coordinator. One of the items we have been doing over the
last couple of years with Jerry, he's been very instrumental in getting myself, the Chan-Chaska
Club, CAA and also Tonka together for their youth athletics and coordinating what we've done.
We've been sensitive, i.e. using Meadow Green one day a weekend last fall. Bandimere the
other day a weekend, which now we realize we're losing that. That field. But I agree with Jay
that if you let Jerry do the scheduling, he's relayed to us and we've policed our own people and I
think for the last year it's worked pretty well and there has been a crunch with City Center gone
and Bandimere not on line yet. And really that's what I have to say.
Lash: The only problem that I have, I've got a couple problems. One is, not with your
comments. I agree with your comments Fred. I think this is a philosophical shift for us. And a
lot of the problems that I have is, I don't necessarily think that having organized sports in every
park tells me that it's being utilized to it's fullest. I think as a commission we need to remember
that some open spaces need to be passive. Some people want to go and enjoy quiet time. They
want to go and get away from organized sports for a while so to put organized sports into every
park...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Lash: ...and this has nothing to do with my trust level for Jerry, because I think, we all know
that Jerry does a great job. I think having a policy gives him something, not only to use as a
guideline but to say to people, you know hey. This is the policy. You know I can pass on your
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999 ,
concern but here's the policy. Therefore it takes some of that pressure off of him when someone
is not necessarily happy with a decision that he's being forced to make because we're afraid
we're going to look like we're micro managing. I don't want to micro manage. I want to give
him a level of comfort that he can do his job without having to take too many hits. So Jerry, you
know you can kind of tell us if you think it's the kind of deal that you're not going to have
problems. Or if you do have problems and you want to come back and say, I'm taking too much
flack. I want a policy that I can fall back on. You know I'd be okay with that.
Ruegemer: I mean I certainly feel comfortable working with the associations and with more of a
general type of recommendation. I'm not afraid of getting phone calls. You know they have
been very minimal since I've been here really in 9 ½ plus years. I do feel comfortable with
maybe Jan, I appreciate your comments, but I certainly am willing to, I don't know if take on is
the word but to work through maybe...use and maybe not have a concrete. If that's the way the
commission would like to go, I certainly am, I mean Frank and Larry are, really hit it tonight. I
mean we've all been working together. We've had a serious field issue and I think we're, I'm
more than willing to work out a lot of the different issues so I think that'd be fine.
Lash: I'd be happy enough to go with whatever you are comfortable with Jerry. I think after this
season, when we've got all these new parks on line, it might be good for us to review this again
and then maybe we would want to make it a policy.., so as numbers change we can always come
back.
Ruegemer: Yeah, I think with trying to maximize what we do have coming on line now, I think
it will give us a truer picture after next summer. Spring and summer with that. We're really in a
nice position right now with new facilities coming on line and really time for us to reassess and
really to see where we're going to be in the future so.
Lash: Okay, given that I think we still need a motion.
Franks: I move that we direct staff to work with CAA and Chan-Chaska Soccer Club and the
appropriate scheduling for soccer, baseball and softball and such scheduling in a way to
minimize the impact of participation in neighborhoods. Especially in the neighborhood parks of
Meadow Green, Carver Beach.
Karlovich: Jan, do you want to add to that possibly that we give Jerry some direction to do
everything in his power to reduce the amount of play at Rice Marsh Park?
Ruegemer: A friendly you might want to include these mentioned organizations, and/or other
organizations using our facilities.
Lash: And I'd also like to add that we then get some type of a summary or report after the season
next fall.
Howe: This means or implies this is going to stay with the parks. We're not going to expand
this to every neighborhood park in the city?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Franks: Right.
Lash: Okay. Are you clear Jerry?
Ruegemer: Yeah, I'll get that and I'll get the formal recommendation from the Minutes too so.
Lash: Is there a second to that?
Franks moved and the motion was seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
direct staff to work with the CAA, Chan-Chaska Soccer Club and/or all other
organizations to allow for the scheduling of soccer, baseball and softball in such a way as to
minimize the impact on Meadow Green, North Lotus, Carver Beach and Rice Marsh
Parks. Also directing staff to prepare a summary of the field usage for the commission next
fall. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
RECREATION PROGRAMS:
1999 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY.
Lash: We've got the lighting ceremony that Tracy has. Does anybody have a comment on that?
Franks: Where's the tree coming from?
Ruegemer: It came from Minnewashta Heights Park. Off of Highway 7. There was some
reforestation'out there and kind of a neighborhood project where trees were eliminated next to
the Highway 7. So we just kept one of those up till yesterday and brought it back into town. On
a flatbed. So it's up right now if you see it out in front. Augered in.
1999 HALLOWEEN PARTY EVALUATION.
Lash: Okay, how about the Halloween Party evaluation. Anybody have comments that they
want to pass onto Tracy about that?
Howe: I thought it went well. All good ideas about spreading out the hallways. It wasn't as
crowded at all. I could manage my candy distribution.
Lash: I thought it was great. Did a good job.
SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: ADULT 3 ON 3 BAKETBALL UPDATE.
Lash:
Moes:
Jerry's got the 3 on 3 basketball.
Does Scott play on the 3 on 3?
Do you have anything for Jerry on that? Okay.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Ruegemer: As of right now he's not playing any organized. Just pick up ball at the Rec Center
but he sure likes his basketball.
RECREATION CENTER.
Lash: Anybody have comments on that?
Franks: I've just been hearing some things from neighbors and other people about the dance
program. And how space seems to be an issue. Getting space with the aerobics classes and some
of the other exercise classes so I don't know Jerry exactly how that works out but it really seems
that this new group... I've heard from both that are wondering about getting more workout time.
Also parents wanting to know why scheduling is...
Ruegemer: I'm not directly responsible for scheduling but I do hear things as well. The dance
program is growing leaps and bounds. Aerobics classes are growing leaps and bounds. We're
going to hit the wall so to speak as to what we can do as far as offering additional facilities. And
time. I know that Susan Marek, our Recreation Center, our lead person out there is really trying
to maximize the scheduling between the two groups and kind of work with potentially, you know
even with Tae Kwon Do, put them into community rooms versus gyms and really trying to kind
of work around and really try to maximize, you know to have really group, certain groups in
certain areas. That type of thing but I kmow that the dance program is really big right now and I
know Mary Ann Porter who is the coordinator of the dance program I think is going to be talking
to Todd with expansion plans to the Rec Center which will be interesting. But we'll see. I think
she would like to see a community or room or two taken out and add an additional dance type of
dance area or public.
Lash: Couldn't they do the glass...?
Ruegemer: I'm not sure if the floor's conducive to dance programs or mirror or bars.
Franks: ...but the dance programs certainly are revenue producers so if rental or as a revenue
generator...
Lash: I just can't figure out why those kids in the little class couldn't go in. They don't need to
have bars or mirrors...
Berg: My kids used to dance at the beer soaked floor in the basement of the American Legion.
Howe: And you were with them weren't you?
Berg: Darn right.
Lash: Again, this is back to the drawing board. Getting people to work together here and solve
this problem. Maximum usage so use...that's not used. Okay. Anything else on that one?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
SENIOR CENTER REPORT. No questions were asked on this item
PARK AND TRAIL MAINTENANCE REPORT.
Lash: Do you have anything you want to pass on...
Ruegemer: Does anyone know the reason for the... We did have a female out by the warming
house at the Rec Center trip over a crack that was heaved. A piece of concrete was heaved up
and she did trip over that and break a hand and some other damage. Haven't heard anything as
far as... I didn't really know that they were there and really made us kind of reassess the situation
out there and take appropriate action on that. So that's the reasoning for the mud packing the
concrete slabs and raising those two flush to kind of grade.
Lash: One broken record comment again about the brush and leaf drop off, which I think is great
that the City provides that for the residents but again I'd like something passed on to the
Environmental Committee and the City Council that we need to think about...compost site. You
know people are allowed to dump there for free, which is great. I certainly utilized it. But I
know somewhere along the line someone is paying this outfit to haul all this stuff away so why
aren't we composting it, turning around in the spring and selling it to people? It's ridiculous to
me that we, with what we have that we don't have that in this town...hasn't done any good yet.
Ruegemer: Before we go on, I forgot to bring this up before. We have a Park and Rec video that
was introduced to us at our Park and Rec conference down in Mankato narrated by Don Shelby.
It's about a 10 minute video. Is anybody interested in watching that tonight?
Lash: Is there anybody who's not?
Ruegemer: Parks and Recreation, Your Best Investment. It's just a feel good park and rec video.
We don't have to watch it. We can save it till the 14th.
Berg: Sounds like a real holiday thing.
Lash: On the 14th we'll have a very light agenda. This already has gone twice as long as I
anticipated.
Ruegemer: We could be talking water tournament huh?
Berg: That will be a piece of cake by then.
Lash: Under administrative. Jerry, do you have anything?
Ruegemer: No.
Howe: ...snowmobilers, did that...go to their meetings?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Lash: That's the packet. You're jumping the gun here.
Ruegemer: I do have one administrative. Marsha Eland was named to the District 112 Youth
Commission last night so we do have a Youth Commission adult member again. That was put
on the consent agenda for the City Council last night and that was approved. So I've been in
contact with Marsha and will forward on the good news to her so we'll have the representative
from our city on the commission finally.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORT.
Howe: Jerry went for me to the last meeting of the Race Committee. That's what you might be
looking for.
Ruegemer: We did meet a couple weeks back I believe now. At that meeting we did discuss
options. We did look at the route again and kind of talk about what can be done if we want to
add fans or water points. We did have a full committee. Lynn Johnson was there.
Howe: Lynn Johnson?
Ruegemer: She is the present coordinator for the 4th of July 5K Run in Excelsior. Very
knowledgeable. We did talk about certain things about the race and looked at t-shirts. You
know we got some pricing for t-shirts. Kind of what we'd like them to look like. What kind of
colors type of thing. How we're...to get some pricing from some vendors. I in turn sent out
about 5 or 6 more invitations for companies to submit bids for those t-shirts. We also talked
about kind of what role Southwest Metro was going to play in the 5K. I've been in contact with
John Kragness who works for Southwest Metro. Southwest Metro sounds like they're really
going to climb on board on the 5K run. They're going to be providing bus transportation from
the Americlnn after people register out to Lake Ann. For spectators and runners. They'll be
transporting people back and forth to my knowledge free of charge for that. So they're really
anxious to come on board. Really the committee is extremely ahead of itself at this point. You
know I think we're all looking for busy work to do but at this point there's a lot of the
information is out there...as far as the date.
Lash: What's the date?
Ruegemer: September 16th.
Howe: 9:00 a.m. Saturday.
Ruegemer: Yep. It was decided at the meeting that the 5K will be for runners only and walkers.
No Rollerbladers.
Berg: No wagons?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Ruegemer: No wagons. No mopeds. So other than that we're just kind of waiting for things to
get closer really. At this point we're really ahead of the game as far as people. I talked to a
couple vendors and they're thinking I'm crazy asking for shirt prices almost a year in advance but
we're just trying to get ahead of it and work on more the marketing logos. Try to finalize the
name of the race.
Berg: Huffman name involved?
Ruegemer: Yes. A few other names that we have to try to massage into sponsors. And working
on that. Working on the registration forms. We're going to try to have that out the first part of
the year with all the information on it so. Price, looks like it's going to be $12 to $17.
Somewhere in that area. Try to keep it relatively inexpensive. That will include the shirt. It
looks like a lot of people are interested in coming on board with the contacts of the Americlnn
and Houlihan's... get a lot of the food and type of things donated for the event so I mean it looks
like it's all going to come together with flying colors...
Lash: Okay, thanks Jerry. Anybody else under committee reports?
Howe: ...next meeting is next Tuesday by the way for any of you.
Ruegemer: 30th, yeah.
Howe: 5:15 p.m. at the Americlnn. Bring your swim suit.
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS. None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET.
Howe: Did Todd go to this meeting? Did they throw snowballs at him? The snowmobile
meeting.
Ruegemer: Was that when he was invited to their meeting?
Howe: He wanted to get an invitation to talk about trails that they could not ride on. Maybe with
the lack of snow he hasn't.
Ruegemer: I don't know if he's gone to that yet. I think they have a meeting coming up in
December. Early December sometime.
Howe: That was my question.
Ruegemer: I've not heard that he has been to a snowmobile meeting. I don't know his schedule
all the time either so. I don't think that he's been.
Berg: What are the dates for February Festival?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - November 23, 1999
Ruegemer: I believe it's the 5th. Yeah, I think it's the first Saturday in February.
Lash: The skate boarding thing here, managing your risk exposure was informative. Anything
you'd like to report on that Jerry? How's it going out there?
Ruegemer: The skate park? Busy up until yesterday. Jugt a ton of people using the area. You
know we're still trying to educate people about helmet use but you know, a very high percentage
of the people are using helmets, as asked for that and very well received at this point. I think
people are happy with the equipment. I've talked to a couple of older kids that wished we had 40
foot ramps but other than that I think for the most part, you know parking is an issue. With the
fire station and that right there but we're working through all that and a lot of people. A lot of
older kids that drive come to the park. They're coming from St. Louis Park, Plymouth, all kinds
of areas.
Lash: I read in the paper of the Sailor, or is it Excelsior or Shorewood or somebody is trying to
put together in their area too so. What did they have, $5,000 or $1,500 or.
Berg: Kids ! talk to, when I asked if they'd like more they just sort of look at us like why? What
we've got is really great.
Ruegemer: At this point they seem happy with the site. They seem to be doing a good job
policing themselves as far as you know telling other people that don't have helmets, you know
you'd better get your helmet on we're going to lose our right to be here. Without it being gated
and it's basically open whenever they want to go out there which I think is great. We certainly
didn't think we'd be going to darn near Thanksgiving with people still using it but it's been
packed.
Lash: Have anything? Nothing else tonight? Okay, I'd look for a motion to adjourn.
Berg moved, Howe seconded to adjourn the Park and Recreation Commission meeting. All
voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:35 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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