1e Approvals of MinutesCHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
CONTINUATION OF REGULAR MEETING OF jANUARY 11, 1999 HELD ON
JANUARY 19, 1999
Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 5:30 p.m.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Senn, Councilwoman Jansen,
and Councilman Labatt.
COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Engel.
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Acting City Manager; Charles Folch, Public Works Director;
Anita Benson, City Engineer; Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director; Pam Snell, Finance
Director; and Mark Littfin, Fire Marshal.
ACCOUNTS PAYABLE: Staff presented their response to the City Council questions regarding
the accounts payable. Staff presented budget justification and detailed narrative regarding the need
for each expenditure. The City Council asked various questions regarding several items with staff
responding to their questions.
Mayor Mancino moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve the Accounts Payable as
presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Mancino adjourned the regular meeting and the council met in a work session.
NOISE STUDY~ LEWIS ENGINEERING IN CHASKA: Staffpresented the draft noise study
for Lewis Engineering. This study was prepared by David Braul. The recommendation of the study
was to build a berm with a retaining wall. Staff was directed to meet with the neighbors to explain
the study and gather their input especially regarding costs°
APPOINTMENTS
Board of Adjustments & Appeals: Staff informed the council that there is a
vacancy on the Board. Discussion was held on how other communities handle
variances. Staff was directed to bring back a study of variance procedures from other
communities.
be
Planning Commission: Staff informed council of two vacancies on the Planning
Commission and asked if they wanted to advertise or reappoint if current members wanted
to remain on the Commission. Council stated they wanted to be consistent with their policy
and advertise the two vacancies.
Southwest Metro Transit: Staff informed council of the vacancy of council liaison to
Southwest Metro Transit. Council discussed placing this item on their next regular agenda
to fill the vacancy.
FIRE DEPARTMENT PENSION: Staff presented the Fire Department Relief Association
pension funding request for 1999 and 2000. Staff recommended approving the Fire Department's
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
WORK SESSION
JANUARY 19, 1999
Page 2
request. The City Council requested that staff compare state aid contribution, city contribution, a~d
benefit levels with other communities of similar population, such as Anoka, Hopkins, Hastings,
Ramsey, Stillwater, Savage, Robbinsdale and Chaska. '
Staffwas also asked to explore the option of a Defined Benefit Pension Plan as compared to the
current plan. Atter the research is completed on this item, staffwill share their findings at a future
City .Council Work Session.
EASTERN CARVER COUNTY COLLABORATIVE STUDY: Mayor Mancino and Acting~
City Manager Todd Gerhardt updated the City Council on the work completed to date on the
Eastern Carver County Collaborative Study. The Community Leaders Forum has been considering
the possibility of collaborating on a unique project involving the following components:
1. K-5 Elementary School
2. Arboretum Science Resource Center
3. Library-Learning Center
4. Outdoor Recreation Space
Community Multi-use Space
6. Coordination of Comprehensive Land-use Plans
The group is now at the point of moving into Phase II Planning Activities, such as:
2.
3.
4.
5.
Submission of a Planning Grant request to the Minnesota Legislature
Plan development, further definition and coordination
Financial planning
Legal consultation
Engineering, architectural, and construction consultation.
Staff concluded by stating that that this item will be presented on the January 25, 1999 agenda.
REVIEW 1999 MEETING SCHEDULE: Staffpresented the 1999 work session meeting
schedule. Items added to the list are as follows:
City Vehicle Purchasing Policy
Uniform Policy
Pay Comp Plan
Release of Information
Elections
Update on Highway 101
PROPOSED CHANGES TO THE RULES OF PROCEDURE
Councilwoman Jansen proposed the following changes to the Council's Rules of Procedure:
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
WORK SESSION
JANUARY 19, 1999
Page 3
Policy:
Guidelines for City Council work sessions.
Description:
City Council work sessions are held in a less formal setting to facilitate a more
comfortable forum for the exchange of ideas between council members, city staff,
outside organizations wishing to address the cotmcil, and the general public. These
are informational, fact finding, idea sharing sessions.
No action may be taken on items discussed. Items requiring action must be
placed on a future regular meeting agenda to allow for public notice and
comments.
Schedule:
City Council work sessions will be held in the Courtyard Conference Room every
Monday evening at 5:30 p.m. unless otherwise noted.
Procedures:
Work session preceding regular council meetings are for the purpose of discussing
items on the consent agenda for that evening. Other items on the agenda for the
regular meeting will not be discussed unless published as such in the newspaper.
However, upon request from a member of the public who is unable to attend the
work session on a regular meeting agenda item, discussion of that item will only be
heard in the regular meeting. In addition, if other business is to be discussed, those
items will be listed in the meeting notice unless they are basic administration issues
of no public interest.
Agenda items for off-week work session will be advertised in the newspaper to
encourage public participation.
Visitor Presentations will be restricted to regular meetings.
Councilwoman Jansen also suggested that a larger table to accommodate staff and
possible visitors would help to facilitate participation in the work session. She
suggests that the table accommodate 11 to 12 people.
Advertising Changes:
Work session listings will note discussion of consent agenda items and all other
items to be discussed. Off-week work session agendas need to be added to the
advertising rotation.
Staff suggested placing the proposed changes on the next City Council agenda for action.
The meeting was adjourned at 9:15 p.m.
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 8, 1999
Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:30 p.mo The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the
Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Senn, and
Councilwoman Jansen. Councilman Engel left the meeting during discussion of item 2.5.
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson, Kate Aanenson, Charles Folch, Anita Benson, Bob
Generous, Todd Hoffman, Harold Brose, Steve Kirchman, Richard Rice and Bob Zydowsky
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the
agenda as amended by Councilman Senn to add the following items which were accepted after the filing
deadline: Public Announcements A. Proclamation Declaring Community Values Week February 14-20,
1999; Consent Agenda 1 (k)(1). Approval of Renaming Lake Lucy Estates Subdivision to Whitetail
Cove; and l(k)(2). Amendment to Development Contract. Public Hearings: 2.5 Organizational Issues
which will be moved to item 2. New Business: Appointment of Two City Council Members to Serve on
.the Southwest Transportation Coalition; and Administrative Presentations. 9(e). Request for
Clarification of Resolution in Support of Eastern Carver County Collaborative Planning Project, Acting
-City Manager. And 9(d) is deleted from the agenda. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended and the
motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: PROCLAMATION DECLARING COMMUNITY VALUES
WEEK, FEBRUARY 14-20~ 1999.
Mayor Mancino: I would like to read the proclamation declaring Community Values Week, February 14
to the 20th. Whereas, It takes a whole village to educate a child. The whole community has the
responsibility to work in concert with the home to provide consistent messages about how we are to treat
.each other. Whereas, The entire community participated in a process to identify a common ground of
basic goodness. The District 112 communities' process involved three community forums and a
committee that reviewed and summarized the input from the community. The values were then adopted
:by the city councils, school board and county commissioners. Whereas, the entire community must be
involved. This includes school, business, clergy, law enforcement, social services, city government, and
service organizations. This involvement begins with identifying the values and continues by community
members modeling and promoting the values. Whereas, the City of Chanhassen has adopted and
promotes the eight community values of citizenship, environmentalism, generosity, human worth and
dignity, integrity, learning, respect for other, and responsibility. Whereas, the Values Committee has
organized the Tenth Annual Community Values Award Program for 1999. Now Therefore, the City of
Chanhassen hereby proclaims the week of February 14th to the 20th, 1999 to be Community Values Week
in the city of Chanhassen. As we continue to face the challenges and opportunities of our society, I call
on all citizens of Chanhassen to promote and model these eight values. Chanhassen's commitment and
dedication to building a bright future for all members, but especially the youth of this community remain
top priorities. Thank you.
Resolution #99-07: Mayor Mancino moved, Councilman Engel seconded to adopt a resolution
pr~oclaiming-F~q~raa~.-y-1.4-~20, 1999 as Community Values Woek in Chanhassen, All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
OONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Engel moved, Councilman Senn seconded to approve the
following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
Resolution #99-08: Authorize Advertisement for Bids for 1999 Vehicle & Equipment
Acquisition, File No. PW016GGG.
Approve Contract with H.R. Green Company for Pavement Management Study, Project 99-4.
Approval of Lake Ann Beach Lifeguard Contract, Minnetonka Community Services.
g.
Amendment to City Code Allowing the Installation of Upright Monuments in the Chanhassen
Pioneer Cemetery, Final Reading.
Approval of Bills.
City Council Minutes dated December 28, 1998.
City Council Minutes dated January 11, 1999.
Planning Commission Minutes dated January 20, 1999.
Approval of Special Recreation Services Contract, West Hennepin Community Services.
Consider Amendment to the City Code, Section 20-913(c) Lighting, to Regulate Height, Spacing
and Type of Light Fixtures, First Reading.
1} Approval of Renaming the Lake Lucy Estates Subdivision to Whitetail Cove.
2) Amendment to Development Contract.
Ali voted in favor and the motion carried.
I(B): ARBORETUM BUSINESS PARK PUBLIC.IMPROVEMENTS, PHASE II.
Councilman Labatt: I wanted to take further time to review this. It's in reference to Arboretum
Business Park Public Improvements feasibility study that I guess was conducted a year, couple years ago.
i'd like to have a chance to review that study. Also spending $50,000.00 for a temporary signal at TH 41
and 82~ Street so I'd just like to table this until the next meeting to have time to review that study, ~
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Would you like to make a motion?
Councilman Labatt: I make a motion that we table item l(b)(1) until the next council meeting.
Mayor Mancino: And between that time you'll have time to review the report?
Councilman Labatt: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: Great. Second?
2
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Senn seconded to table the Cooperative Agreement with
Chaska for Traffic Signal at TH 41 and 82na Street for Arboretum Business Park Public
Improvements, Phase II until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
~:arried.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Robert gmithburg: Madam Mayor and council members. ! am here to urge you to form a transportation
task force. This task force made up of elected officials and members of the community would give us a
much needed participatory role in the decisions affecting transportation in our area. Our city must work
in cooperation with other regional transportation planning groups such as the 494 task force, and the
Twin Cities Metropolitan Commuter Rail Feasibility Study. MnDOT has issued it's final summary
report Phase II regarding commuter rail and this was reported to the legislature on February 1 st. The
Norwood-Young America line, known as Line H, includes Chanhassen and is a great opportunity to
· consider such alternatives. Chanhassen should not limit itself to tunnel 212 vision. Doing this does not
serve our community well. This council drafted a memorandum of understanding regarding Highway
212's planning that stressed citizen participation. I am simply asking you that you take the first step to
execute that commitment by establishing a task force. Citizen participation at this level would be
beneficial because it would increase public knowledge and help promote viable solutions to our long
term traffic problems. We are moving away from strictly an automobile driven society into a more
enlightened interdependence. Our ne~vly elected Governor Jesse Ventura stresses a need for transit
alternatives. Our newly appointed Metropolitan Council Chair Ted Mondale also favors mass transit
alternatives. And we also have a new Commissioner of Transportation who favors mass transit. Even
our Minnesota State House Representative, the Chair of the Transportation COmmittee is in favor of
employing our existing rails. Now is the time to explore these options as there is already momentum in
this direction. And in fact a presentation on commuter rail feasibility will be held on Tuesday, this
coming Tuesday, February 9tt' at 8:00 a.m. at the State Office Building. And this is Room 5 and this is
before Representative Workman's committee. And this is the study and there's a lot of really great
information in there. In conclusion, we need to look at the totality of our transportation needs. Not just
the one avenue that has been pursued for 50 years. We shouldn't close the door on other opportunities by
settling for partial and short sighted solutions. We need to explore and actively pursue transportation
alternatives for our community. Do we need to question this narrow focus that has been before this city
for decades? I think we do. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Could you state your name and address please?
Robert Smithburg: Oh, I'm sorry.
Mayor Mancino: We waited until you got done.
Robert Smithburg: Robert Smithburg, 8657 Chanhassen Hills Drive North, Chanhassen.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much. Any questions that councilmembers have for Robert? Okay.
Thank you. Mr. Smithburg's request was setting up a task force for transportation. I think all types of
Iransportation so that is something we will get back to you and actually we'll be talking a little bit about
commissions later, etc. so thank you for that input. Anyone else wishing to address the council? During
visitor presentation.
City Council Meeting - February 89 1999
Frank Mendez: Good evening. My name is Frank Mendez. And I live at 7361 Kurvers Points Road here
in Chanhassen. And I just want to bring up some concerns here to the council for your review and
discussion. And they're really in reference to Y2K issues and I see that in our program that there is, that
is a study here going on and it looks like we're moving forward at a nice pace. What I'd like to do is just
add some, maybe just add some personal information to this and maybe some direction as well. What I'd
like, I hope the City Council does is really advance personal preparedness in respect to our community.
In other words there's a lot of communities out here that are doing a lot of things which are beneficial to
the community that really don't help the individual as much. What I'm saying is that we really need to
really present a personal preparedness issue to these people. And I'd like to just mention a few little
subjects for your consideration. I'd like to see the city council sponsor a local community awareness
event to inform area residents of the year 2000 issue. Offering practical ways to prepare and respond and
launch community action. Second thing that I'd like the city council to take a look at is to establish
ongoing task forces and meetings to address specific areas of vulnerability. And serve as a central Y2K
resource for the community. And I emphasize resource because information is the key here. Tools are
valuable too but information can really take us a long way. I'd also like to see the city council encourage
people in the city to partner with local churches, businesses, charitable, civic and interested government
organizations in Y2K preparedness and contingency plano Emphasizing particularly the needs of
vulnerable areas in the community. Areas maybe that may have a concern due to sewage, sewage back
flow or water. Which is often over looked. Seeing that we don't stand alone in reference to sewage so if
there's a problem in that area, some eof our residents could pay that price. So I'd just like that continued
research to be done. And really what I'd like is to encourage individuals to prepare. Again going back to
,my opening statement~ To prudently prepare, not panic. To look for the best and to prepare for the
worst. And really that's all I really wanted to say and I just hope that you listened to these comments and
continue to go forward on your Y2K preparedness. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much Frank. Both Frank and Bob Smithburg, if you'd like to please e-
mail us what you've just read and I think that we'll have that and come back to it and look at it during our
work session and start getting prepared and talking about these things. So if you have the time and don't
mind e-mailing us, that'd be great.
Councilman Engel: Do you have access to e-mail, both of you?
Mayor Mancino: Or fax or, yeah. Appreciate it. Or put it in the mail. The old fashion way.
Frank Mendez: Thank you very much.
Mayor Mancino: Anyone else wishing to address the council during visitor presentation?
Bob Ayotte: The name's Bob Ayotte.
Mayor Mancino: Excuse me, wait til you get the podium please Bob.
Bob Ayotte: Cascade Pass. Make a request for, the council made some initiatives which I think are
good ones for budget and I don't know whether or not any efforts have been made to have a training
program formalized for the type of budget methodologies that you want to employ in order to create some
consistency from one activity to the next. The process has changed, which I think is a council decision to
move forward. I'm requesting that there be a formalized, intense and quick mechanism introduced to the
staffto afford .the sta'ff:t.he .opportunity of understanding the budget process .that you're trying to
implement. I think that will facilitate things in a much more constructive fashion. I would also ask that
4
City'Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
you introduce in your budget review thresholds so that during the budget meetings issues associated with
a $300.00 expenditure, a $500.00 expenditure may not take as much time as an expenditure of $1.5
million. Thank you.
-Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much. And again, Bob if you'd like to e-mail us that, that'd be great.
Otherwise we do have it in our notes.
ORGANIZATIONAL ITEMS.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Janet Lash
Fred Berg
Dave Dummer
Marcia & John Hull
Jim Sloss
Leah Hawke
~Patsy & Bill Bemhjelm
Mona J. Kerber
Pat & Lee Kerber
.Eldon B.
Leslie Michel
Wes & Carol Dunsmore
Elizabeth Burgett
Craig Peterson
Michael O'Kelly
Lydia E. Porter
Doug Hale
Barb Klick
Jim Murphy
Betty Hayes
'Vernelle Clayton
Dean Trippler
Mike Kerber
Ed Jannusch
7001 Tecumseh Lane
6910 Chaparral Lane
'8523 Drake Court
1421 Lake Susan Hills Drive
9360 Kiowa Trail
7444 Moccasin Trail
9380 Kiowa Trail
500 Chanview
1620 Arboretum Blvd.
9581 Highland Drive, Eden Prairie
(Moving to Chan)
2840 Washta Bay Road
730 West 96th Street
1193 Harrison Street, Shakopee
1340 Oakside Circle
685 Carver Beach Road
7217 Pontiac Circle
12715 Highway 7
7116 Utica Lane
502 Highland Drive
6881 Redwing
422 Santa Fe Circle
Chanhassen Villager
500 Chanview
6831 Utica Terrace
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, City Council members. At our last work session this past Monday night, staff
was asked to bring back the different alternatives that were presented to the City Council during that
work session. Along with that, to establish a third alternative B proposal working with the Carver
County Sheriff's Department. Staff was also asked to list out comments, pros and cons of each of the
alternatives and then present those back to City Council at tonight's meeting. Included in your packet is
each of the alternatives and at this time I'd like to present those to the City Council and to the public for
'theireommen~. Onee ,I..er>~ple~te my presentation Mayor, I would leave it up .to the-council if you wan~t
to ask questions of me or if you'd like the public to take comments at that time.
5
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you very much. Todd, excuse me. This is what's in our packet?
Todd Gerhardt: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you.
Todd Gerhardt: Well it's not coming through as clearly as I'd like so what I will do is kind of read
through it so everybody has an understanding... Option 1, under this option the'public safety department
section is, right now this is how Chanhassen City Hall is organized...Here you have the City Council
working directly with the City Manager. From the City Manager... We have general administration in
this area. Under general administration you've got the office manager, support staff, city recorder, MIS
Coordinator and GIS Specialist. Then down below you have the six different departments other than
administration. There's public safety, park and rec, public works, engineering, planning and finance. In
our public safety department, there's a public safety director that oversees deputy public safety director,
public safety officers, community service officers, fire marshal, fire inspector and support staff, building
official, assistant building official.., and a volunteer fire department of approximately...members. Park
and rec, you have the Park and rec director, rec superintendent, recreation supervisor, recreation
secretary, senior citizen coordinator, park and rec center staff and park...park foreman and light and
heavy equipment operators. Public works department. We have a director of public works in Charles
Folch... streets and sewer and water lines. You have the public works staff, street superintendent, public
works secretary, heavy equipment operator and light equipment operator.., support staff. Our
engineering department consists of the city engineer, Anita Benson. Assistant city engineer, construction
tech IV, mapping tech II, engineering secretaries and an engineering intern. Our Planning department
consists of a planning director, Kate Aanenson who oversees two senior planners, one Planner I, water
resource .coordinator and environmental resource specialist. Our finance department, Para Snell is our
Finance Director. She oversees...utility and billing clerk and half time intern. We also have the
.economic development authority which is a separate commission...You have the entire city council and
lwo members at large. And you have the economic development director overseeing that authority. With
Option I, it is my recommendation that., .organization and that you look at hiring a new public safety
director or similar position...and oversee the administration of the police contract. It gives the city one
comprehensive professional managed safety department, both in inspections, police protection, animal
~:onlxol, and in public safety education .... working very well with Carver County and their department. I
think that under this...both a police contract and community policing. It allows for patrolling of bike
trails. Water patrol. The flexibility in call up situations where your Carver County deputies need to
leave a scene and we have our own staff to back it up. And it also gives us coordination with our
volunteer fire department. That Public Safety Director would also be responsible for insuring that the
administration...of that organization are being met. Both from a training and administrative side. With
that I have a second option that I call Option 2A. In Option 2A you have the City Manager that would
oversee the Economic Development Authority, the economic development director. He then would be
responsible to oversee both the building official, support staff, fire marshal and their support staff. Also
the Economic Development... I would also establish a Board of Appeals to hear questions and concems
regarding building code issues and that that board would also be responsible... Comments regarding this
option is that the economic development director currently has extensive knowledge in computers and
maximizing the use of our new permitting process. He's proven himself as a capable of maximizing use
of all software programs and to the extent that they can be used for. The economic development director
understands the building and fire code issues. He has managed this department in the past as he served
as~t.he city manager for.the City .ofChanhassen. He is creative in coming up with ideas..One-of them-that
he shared here the other day was establishing an escrow account for some building permits...set aside for
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
a person to get a building permit right away. Economic development director takes on the inspections.
There would be the question if he would have enough time to do the duties as the economic development
director. That would be one of the cons to this scenario. Separation of inspections from the public
safety...what would be say the first alternative would, could be another potential con to this scenario and
it does continue to lump inspections... It makes the department smaller than the original Option 1 which
in some cases can make it more manageable and given the smaller numbers. That's Option 2A.
Mayor Mancino: Todd, do you mind if we ask questions as you go? Just two questions ! have. Number
one. Would you suggest doing the Board of Appeals, you had that in 2A. Would you suggest creating
Ih,at in 1 if we chose 1 too?
Todd Gerhardt: Yes. I would include that in Option 1.
Mayor Mancino: So you would include it in Option 1. Tell, can you speak to the fiscal impacts of this.
Being that we have an EDA Director already and don't need a public safety director. Is there a fiscal
impact?
Todd Gerhardt: Well yes. Without the public safety director you would save money in his salary.
However, there would have to be some offsetting costs associated with the hours that Scott was credited
i'or under the police contract. At our work session we talked about the difference of 51 hours... The
reason we have a difference is...got credit for both Scott, Bob and Kerri's time in patrolling Chanhassen.
So somehow we would have to make up some of those hours by either adding...I would see that
probably, and the thing I don't have a handle on yet is how many hours were associated...so if they gave
Scott 4 hours of credit or was it 6 hours credit, I'm not sure.
Mayor Mancino: But the main duty was supervising, advisory.
Todd Gerhardt: Right. But he did get...some patrolling. He would assist in funerals, traffic control
situations, large events. But based on this scenario, the only option, the only economic impact would be
that difference between the public safety director salary and what we give back to...
Mayor Mancino: So nothing else in this option changes as far as people? You don't increase or
elinfinate or anything?
Todd Gerhardt: No.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Same staff. Same number of staff. Okay. And I'm assuming that's in Option 1
too?
Todd Gerhardt: Yes. No additional staff...
Mayor Mancino: Any other questions? Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: Under Option 2B. What I've done here. You have Option 2A and Bo Option 2A was to
break up the public safety department into two sections with 2A being the inspections portion of it and
2B being more of the law enforcement, community education and animal control section. So in this
scenario you had the city manager would oversee the chief law enforcement officer and I am proposing
Bob -,Zydowsky -to~do-~at.~hi'ef law enforcement-officer and Bob has ~proven himself here ~the last -few
months that he is capable of continuing to oversee the police contract... Questions and concerns that
7
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Scott would answer at times. From that Bob will oversee the Public Safety Educator Coordinator, Beth
Hoiseth. Would also oversee community service officer Henry Price and also our other' sworn officer,
public safety officer Kerri Noldem Under this scenario the comments that I would provide is that it
keeps local policing identity~ You would still have the officers of Bob and Kerri and Henry walking or
driving throughout the community in our blue automobiles and in a blue uniform. That allows us
flexibility for doing special... We'd also be able to provide bike patrol, water patrol... Kerri has proven
herself to do that last year. She took it upon herself to cohtact local businesses and get them to grant or
give or allow us to use, the water patrol...and also Kerri will dress up and get on a bicycle and patrol our
trails and parks in the summertime. Continue to complete the background investigations and criminal
history repons...under Chanhassen administration... It also allows us to retain our Operation
Identification and I think continue our successful relationship with the county and city policing function.
The benefit of not having that of course would be the police liability... Under this scenario I still would
recommend keeping the public safety commission. Basically to oversee, to do an overview of the police
contracts and that the City Council would have direct responsibility over...Any questions regarding
Option 2B?
Mayor Mancino: I just have one. The...
Todd Gerhardt: Yes. It takes it out of City Hall but we would have to wait for them to get,°.
Mayor Mancino: So you're saying the difference is probably timing~
Todd Gerhardt: Timing~ It's kind of nice when you're doing employee checks or for new hires and
things like that, to have...
Mayor Mancino: And what about hardware? Does that mean that the city, that we bought hardware to
be able to do this to? I mean are we duplicating what the county has is what I'm asking.
Todd Gerhardt: I'm sure the county has their own set of hardware.
Mayor Mancino: So we have another set of'hardware that basically does the same thirxg, Can we rent it?
Todd Gerhardt: Do we rent that or?
Leslie Michel: No...The initial hardware would have as a separate...
Mayor Mancino: That they would be doing. Okay, thank you.
Councilman Labatt: What about liquor licenses?...
Todd Gerhardt: Yep. We'll coordinate with some of the county on any...
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you.
Todd Gerhardt: I'm not short on options tonight. Here's Option 3A. Similar to Option 2. We have
broken out the safety or the policing function versus the inspection function under Option 3A. We have
the City Manager again overseeing the Community Development Director. And then the Community
Development Director-would oversee planning...'staff right now, Planner I. Would have to oversee
Environmental and Forestry and Fire Marshal and...support staff. And the inspections support staff,
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
~uilding official and the 6 ½ building inspectors and mechanical inspections. The Economic, I did
include the Economic Development Director under this option and°.. Again under this option I have
included the Board of Appeals and you also have the Planning Commission, which again will be
overseen by the City Council. The additional staffunder this option may, there's no additional staff...the
size of this department, you would have to look at maybe doing some upgrades in positions just because
of the size of it. The Community Development Director...different elements is added responsibility to
that individual. The planner under the old scenario...environmental and forestry and then...would have a
lead person to go to get an answer...
Mayor Mancino: So you're saying you may consolidate that and make one of the senior planners
oversee, excuse me. Okay.
Todd :Gerhardt: ...not knowing exactly what direction you're going to go tonight. I did make it as a
comment... I think there's some pluses in this. There definitely would probably be more
interaction...planning department and inspections... It does put most of the development issues under
one department. Planning is reviewing the subdivisions and code enforcement of the zoning ordinance.
That brings in the building department occasionally and so there is a positive in having it all under one
umbrella. It's a better understanding of how each of the departments operate. It makes
the...development department much bigger. The planning department. Building department would no
longer be under the department of safety per se. More in development and there may need to be an
· educational curve for all employees on how things function. You know.establishing a commission and
.coordination of goals and administrative responsibilities. Any questions regarding 3A?
Mayor Mancino: Any questions?
Todd Gerhardt: The last option is 3B. I have all kinds of disclaimers on this. The concept idea
essentially a couple of weeks ago. Don Ashworth and myself were going to go down and meet with the
Sheriff Bud Olson to discuss this option with him and unfortunately my son was ill so I couldn't make it.
I felt it was important for Don to continue to go down and meet with the Sheriff as a fact finding trip. I
'know that Bud has had discussions with the Carver County Board but feels there needs to be more
discussions...presented under preliminary discussions... Under concept idea, Option 3B proposes
Chanhassen Public Safety Department. What you would have is...what is called a contract
officer/supervisor. The contract officer/supervisor is a position, an employee...Sheriff's department.
However, the Carver County Sheriff's Department would allow...our contract supervisor. And that
is...Bob Zydowsky and Kerri who would become Carver County employees under this idea. They would
continue to work out of Chanhassen and assist with code enforcement, water patrol, and on bike trails
like they have... However they would be Carver County employees. They would be insured under the
Carver County insurance policy...compensated by the County Sheriff's office. Plus we would then up
the contract of, with the sheriff's office to reflect both Bob and Kerri's salary. The contract
officer/supervisor would also oversee the deputies that serve Chanhassen and would also, I want
everybody to know that the deputies currently are not in need of supervision...and crime prevention
officers so... So I just want to make it clear that it's not... The community service officer and crime
prevention specialist would continue to be Chanhassen employees. There's a reason you cannot include
CSO's and crime prevention specialists...right now the Carver County Sheriff's Department does not
provide animal control and crime prevention education. It's something that.., look into because there are
other needs throughout the county for animal control or police education. And crime prevention. So
based on that scenario we came up with some... That would be a plus. There would be one
eomprehensive-po-liee:et~tmgt x~hich would.., 'Chanhassen would lose it's local community orien'ted
policing... I've never seen that...but there's always the possibility of occurring but we thought we
9
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
should...Bob and Kerri would become county employees and lose their seniority as Chanhassen
employees. ClintOn Cop grant funds could be transferred down to the county is my understanding. And
it costs less to have Bob and Kerri here. You're looking at 30... And again, we talked about the BCA
computer for running criminal...background checks for handguns, solicitor's licensing, liquor licensing
would have to be done...One of the other concerns we had was kind of separating crime prevention from
She local police. And if she's supervised over by the Carver County's Sheriff's Department, that there
would need to be...I think Beth could still call upon Bob or Kerri to volunteer time... With that, that's all
the comments I have for Option 3B. Does Council have any questions of Option 3B?
Mayor Mancino: On the contract officer/supervisor in that box in the middle. Could that be Bob? If we
get to choose or does it have to, I mean that's always a possibility I'm assuming.
Todd Gerhardt: Bud did not think that that could work...I don't want to call it union issues or seniority
issues but that point he did not think that that could work.
Mayor Mancino: But he wasn't sure?
Todd Gerhardt: Well one of the other wrinkles is that we'd have to work on.
Councilman Engel: But because they would require seniority within their county sheriff organization to
,move up and take that type of a position as opposed to 10 years of Chanhassen?
Todd.Gerhardt: ...Bob might be overseeing some deputies that have...and so it gets a little
~controversial...
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any other questions?
Councilwoman Jansen: Madam Mayor, I don't know if now would be a good time for me to maybe
introduce some information. I had gone from Mr. Gerhardt's Option 3B and run some numbers realizing
that we had Mr. Gerhardt under a rather constraining time situation as far as the information that we were
given. And procedurally I don't know how we do this. I know of course you're going to be wanting to
uake public comment but I wouldn't want to pop these numbers on everyone after they've given
comments if they would like to be able to speak to them if they in fact apply to this option.
(llaere was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Councilwoman Jansen continued: ...director of public safety. The public safety officer. Community
services officer. And then the two support services positions in there to come to that $305. I left out of
the number for comparison sake since it's not provided in the county and we're saying that it is essential,
the crime prevention officer number isn't in there. Since we had been talking about that remaining with
the city last Monday in the work session. And then within the departmental figures, so I felt I needed to
pull those out were the two support services positions for the building inspectors. So those numbers
aren't a part of the calculation on what our total policing is costing us. Then I went to our budget.
Mayor Mancino: Our 19997
Councilwoman Jansen: Our 1999 budget. The January 27th version of our budget and pulled out all of
the costs that were.assoe/aW.,d ~ith police ~tdministration. The public safely commission 'h~td a small
amount in there and then the animal control was also noted. So all of those numbers are included under
10
~CityCouncil Meeting - February 8, 1999
lhe materials and supplies. I pulled the Sheriff's contract out and as we went through the budget process
,we were all aware that there was this additional $64,000.00 that was above and beyond even the Sheriff's
contract. And I had in my notes that that seemed to be a roll-up of just additional hours that tend to
contribute over to the sheriff's contract. So I did include that as a part of our total policing number and
correct me if I've made any wrong assumptions Gerhardt, if you would. And then I pulled the capital
outlay. So the total other was the $114,641.00. Then to try to figure out the vehicle cost in order to have
a like number to the sheriff's number, I took what their formula was that they used within the contract
which was of course the hourly 8 hour days and how many days in a year times our 4 vehicles. So the 4
vehicles being public safety director, the deputy director, public safety officer and community service
officer. All four vehicles are then factored into that number for the 16880. Just again trying to come up
with comparable expenses that would be shifting over to the total sheriff if we went that direction. That
came to a total within our own budget for personnel, other and vehicles $437,244.00. Added to the
:sheriff's contract of the $487,000.00 comes to a total budget of $924,750.00. So are those numbers
clear?
Mayor Mancino: So we're understanding the total amount that...
Councilwoman Jansen: Yeah. And that was.
Mayor Mancino: And you said that includes the public safety director's salary?
~Cotmcilwoman Jansen: Yes. I left that in there. So then using our current population estimate that we
had just received. That as of April 1, 1999 we're going to be at 19,500. I used the hourly patrol formula
:from the sheriff's department, which is calculated for a population of 7,000 you need 18 hours daily and
then for every additional 1,000 in population beyond that you need 3 hours additionally. So it totals up to
54 hours total if we were to shift everything just over to the Sheriff's department and cover the exact
number of hours from their formula. So by their hourly amount that then brings that total to $822,498.00.
So r/ght now our current services are costing us $102,000.00 approximately more than if it were all under
Ihe sheriff's department. That was just running raw numbers and there's probably room for gravitation
.and Todd, I know you've had a lot of your plate and I started running these and trying to figure out, just
~based on the hourlys and it is confusing to try to do, to compare some of the hourlys just because there's
so many additional things that are in it.
Mayor Mancino: So this is $924,750.00, Plus another, but you don't include crime prevention officer.
So that would not be...support services for building.
Councilwoman Jansen: Correct. Assuming that everything that was within this departmental budget that
was building oriented or yeah. All the building inspectors would shift from this so it didn't apply that at
all.
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor. Just a couple of comments. Carol Dunsmore and Leslie have just, they
probably spend anywhere from 10% to 20% of their time doing police function work. The remaining
amount of their time is they're doing building inspections. The majority of their time you know with the
occasional background check and memos that they would write for Scott Harr. But so I don't know if
you can allocate their entire salary over to there. And then under the community service officer position.
Mayor Mancino: That's what we do right now in our budget.
11
CitytCouncil Meeting - February 8, 1999
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, they rnay all be included in administration but what we're doing right now is
doing our activity budgeting which will really show you where their time is being spent.
Councilwoman Jansen: I actually thought that that's what I had used to pull the two of them and put
them here versus leaving Elizabeth and Betty under building inspections, realizing that of course Betty
.does some of the fire back up support but I think within the budget maybe it was creative accounting but
it was logged under police administration. :
Todd Gerhardt: Well 90% of their time is spent doing building inspections. But I'll get a clarification on
that for you and...under this scenario also, the county is not geared up yet to take on animal control and
are not geared up to take on crime prevention. So you know those things are still going to have to fall
nnrlemeath our umbrella.
Mayor Mancino: And I think that's what's shown here. The crime prevention officer is not included.
Todd Gerhardt: She has the community service officer up above.
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, she does have that but she doesn't have the crime prevention officer.
Todd Gerhardt: Right, Right.
Mayor Mancino: That's pulled out.
Councilwoman Jansen: And actually, in a follow-up conversation with your presentation to this
scenario, we have had just a brief conversation again with the sheriff as to what the commitment could
actually be. And in his mind he's very, again having to look at it transitionally, he gets very enthusiastic
about the idea of being able to put the CSO function and the crime prevention also into a full service
county sheriff department. And I gather that he's very focused himself, as you noted in i believe it was
Ashworth's letter, that he's very community policing oriented as far as wanting people on our trails and
onlhe lakes. So he did realize the significance of that role to this community and spoke to you know
,definitely needing to make sure that that was covered and that maybe in a more of a transitional type of a
scenario being able to speak to that.
Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, he said that to me too and his only other concern in that is that they represent the
entire county and that his phone will ring off the hook as soon as he starts providing that service to one
community. That the other communities would want it. Especially in the animal control section so.
Councilwoman Jansen: Exactly.
Todd'Gerhardt: But no question, if he had a comprehensive system down there, as I said in my
presentation, that having just the one contract would be the best of all worlds. You know it is clunky
having the system. However they have made it work over the years.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you.
Councilwoman Jansen: You're welcome. I just thought it'd be best to have the numbers at least to speak
:tO.
12
~£ity Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
'Mayor Mancino: I'll open this for a public hearing. Those wishing to address the city council, please
come up. State your name and address.
Councilman Engel: Mayor Mancino, I'd like to just state for the record before we get started. There's a
lot of information out here. Todd's. Linda's. Stuff that I've been getting from the community. What
we're going to hear now and I would be in no position whether I was here until midnight to make a
decision on this one way or the other tonight. I just want to preface this. I would move to table after
we're done and keep continuing this discussion. I do not feel ready to make a decision regardless, one
way or the other so before it gets to 8:30 and I've got to go, I just want everyone to know that's how I
feel. I would not be ready to vote on this tonight. I want to keep getting input on it.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, comments.
Bob Ayotte: My name is still Bob Ayotte. Still...Cascade Pass. Number one, I'm 37 years old but my
father, does anybody know who Mickey Rooney was? But you know who...yeah. The movies that
occurred in the late 40's, bear with me Mayor.
Mayor Mancino: You're sticking with the subject that we're on, right?
Bob ^yotte: It's important. The movies in the late 40's, every movie that Mickey Rooney was in he
would say, let's go in the back yard, build the stage and have a show. That's what's happening tonight. I
· have a few questions. I really appreciate your comments. I saw an organizational chart that went from
where a council was doing the castration to a council that was being castrated. Okay? I saw this
.councilwoman working towards development of a position with imperial data° I have talked to you on
that point. But I saw absolutely no mention, it may have been, but I heard no mention of city staff input
.on whaI the requirements are for organization to protect my daughter. Now I'm not asking you, I'm
warning you. Any organizational structure that's intended to protect and service this community better
ihave the input of that staff and better have the input of community. What are the requirements? I've
disagreed with this guy. Anita and I have had two or three disagreements. His police force has given me
a police ticket to go through a stop sign in my neighborhood, which I'll never forgive you for. But the
thing that they do is they define requirements and build specifications. You'd better have the specs for
,every department. Every department. The number of calls that have to be responded to. The issue with
,the dogs. Putting the dog in a car and so on. Now I know when I ask this guy how many linear feet he
has of sewage lines, he knows. He knows the number of his lift stations. He knows the gallons of water
that are pumped. So don't play this game in showing me charts. You'd better have requirements defined
before anybody goes. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Anyone else wishing to address the council and give comments.
Bill Bemhjelm: Bill Bernhjelm, 9380 Kiowa Trail. I'm a member of I think still the public safety
commission. I still haven't heard if we're having a meeting on Thursday night. It's in my calendar but I
.haven't heard one way or the other and I think one of the most important comments that I can make is
this discussion doesn't belong here. It belongs there. I agree with Mr. Ayotte. Too little information.
Too fast. You're talking about making a major change in the leadership of this community in terms of
hiring a city manager. You're talking about a major change in the way the most important public service
that you provide is delivered to the people of this community and you want to 'do it in a big hurry. You
had to do the other thing you did, or at least three of you did, in a big hurry because you were running out
of time. R, ecause.atzt;he.e~ o:fthe year ~here was a.new council. But to start down the wrong road at thi's
po/ut without having the input of your new city manager, without having the input of your staff and
13
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
without having the input of the public safety commission that's been in place for many years here and
knows, at least some of us know the history of why we have a contract° Why the contract says what it
says and why you know there are minimums put on it and the fact that you raised the question obviously
causes the sheriff to raise the price. The sheriff would be a fool not to say sure, I'll be happy to provide
that. But don't forget, the sheriff gets his budget from the farmers in the west end of the county. Not
from you all. And you'd better be prepared to pay the piper if you want all this extra service because you
know they're not going to provide it. And to put a sheriff's employee, a contractor of yours, in charge of
supervising the contract makes absolutely no sense at all. And to say you're going to pick his employee,
the sheriff's employee that's going to represent you. Well which master does he serve which day? And
l. hen you throw in the part about, and we can get rid of him a lot easier than we had to get rid of, then the
way it went the last time we got rid of somebody. You're moving way too fast and this is not going very
well.
Mayor Mancino: Please, no clapping. Thank you.
Barb Klick: Barb Klick, 7116 Utica Lane. I have some concerns also about the direction that we're
taking and I think I'll speak from the angle of a parent. I have two small children and I reside in this
town because I like the amenities and I like the safety issues that are covered for us. Right now under the
contract we have excellent response time from our sheriffs and they do a good job of responding to
injuries and burglaries in process and crime scenes and PI's and things like that. The system or the
model that we have in place now also offers us a community service in terms of not only prevention but
identification of some of our juvenile delinquents, our truants, and policing has really changedo It's not
just response now. It's really...in trying to prevent some of the issues and some of the damage. And a
~few weeks ago when my two young children were playing in the front yard and a young gentleman about
lhe age of 13 or 14 sped through on a snowmobile about 30 mph. IfI would have called the sheriff; sure.
They would have come out if they were hit and helped with the crime scene and rendered emergency
services. That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for people who already know those juvenile
delinquents. Who know that those are some repetitive problems in our neighborhood and who are
already dealing with those people~ .And I urge you with whatever model you look at, that we can
continue some community policing in Chanhassen. This is not a regulatory number but this is a spec or a
benchmark you might want to make yourself aware of. In the Midwest area right now they're looking for
about 1 police officer for 1,000 residents. And if we're going to 20,000 residents, that would be a police
force of about 20 FTE's. Right now with the contract we have 32 hours a day which is about 5.6 FTE's.
In addition to our local policing we've got maybe 10 people at the most. So it's not just about price. It's
about public safety and it depends on what we all want to spend and how safe we want to be. I'm not
suggesting we need a police force at this time. I don't think we could afford it. We're looking at around
a million price tag now. We'd be up around two. I am advocating for a model at least that gives us some
control over the people who are watching out for our children for the safety of our families. Thank you.
Patsy Bemhjelm: Patsy Bemhjelm, 9380 Kiowa Trail° As I'm sure you're all aware by now, I'm a very
concerned citizen also about the public safety department issues that are in front of our city. I guess I
would go along with some of the issues that have been raised already tonight. Why you would make
these changes with the new city manager apparently coming on board soon. It appears that if the purpose
was to get rid of Scott Harr, that's been accomplished. Then why are we further disrupting city hall by
changing this department. It's functioned very well with the alignment that is currently in place and it is I
think a tremendous tribute to Scott himself that the dynamics that were put in place when he was the
public safety director have been what has carried through this department. Carried this department
through vchat.must .see~-lo.many employees like an impossible situation. I can only .imagine what's
going on in the minds of these people, these employees as they watch their department being bandied
14
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
about up at city hall. In the newspaper. In the streets of our city. In the grocery stores. Questions that
are being asked. I had asked you, the council, at your December 14th meeting, why this would happen.
Why any of this had begun? What was the purpose for this? And those questions have never been
answered. Yet you told Mr. Smithburg and Mr. Mendez that you would get back to him on the issues
that they raised tonight. Well I'm not the only one that has raised these issues. Many people have and I
don't know if they just aren't going to be answered. If there's reasons but what is it that's being hidden
fi.om the public here. Why aren't these questions being answered? Is there something that needs to
remain hidden from the public? I don't know. It's certainly the impression that's being given to people.
I guess at this point I would like to say please, please do the right thing at this point in time and leave the
public safety department in tact. I feel it would be foolish and very feudal on my part to ask that Scott
Itarr be reinstated, but what a great way to begin the healing process. To leave the department the way it
is because it has functioned so well. It kind of goes along with the statement, if it isn't broken, don~t fix
it. But if you do decide to take a look at some other issues, please do take the time necessary. That's a
great job on getting the information together Councilwoman Jansen, but there's other costs involved
there. There's other functions that our public safety department performs. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Elizabeth Burgett: My name is Elizabeth Burgett. I live at 1193 Harrison Street in Shakopee, Minnesota.
I've been on support staff at the public safety department for 5 years. I almost decided not to speak
tonight because I was so afraid and I laid awake last night wondering why am I so afraid. I thought well
if I'm going to speak the truth, then why should I be afraid? This you know is the United State of
America and I should be able to speak freely to people that have been elected to serve me and the other
people in Chanhassen. So I know I'm facing the people that have the most power in Chanhassen
government at this time, but I choose to believe that you do want to hear the truth and so I'm going to just
say a little what's in my heart. I think those who are elected to positions of power in government, as you
have been, have the responsibility to put aside personal feelings about persons or issues and consider the.
xvelfare of the people they're elected to serve as most important. Councilman Engel asked at last week's
work session what has changed since Scott left. I'I1 give you my answer. I used to work in a department
that was remarkable for it's camaraderie, it's sense of purpose, it's dedication to the welfare of the
citizens of Chanhassen. This came in gmat deal from Scott Harr and his sense of what was important.
When Scott was our public safety director, state troopers, deputies, the fire chief and other safety and
rescue personnel used to stop by his office to discuss and coordinate safety programs, emergency
responses and emergency management procedures. Since his departure, the department has had no
director. The professional camaraderie between the safety agencies that Scott encouraged is no longer in
evidence. We rarely see any of these people any more. If you imagine a public safety department as a
great ship having many decks, each representing a different agency. Carver County Sheriff's
Department, the fire department, Department of Natural Resources, State Highway Patrol, building
inspections, crime prevention education, community oriented police department, then Scott was our
captain and our navigator. A ship without a captain to coordinate efforts made by the many departments
that keep the ship running is in a dangerous position should a storm threaten. I believe this is what has
changed since Scott left. We work in an atmosphere of insecurity. Waiting for the inevitable storm that
we all know is coming. A couple of years ago we had a robbery at the Chanhassen Bank and Scott stood
shotgun out there and helped coordinate with the Eden Prairie police department on the apprehension of
the suspect. It was just things like this. He would, whenever there was a call he wanted to be right there.
So I say that we're waiting for the inevitable storm and we're wondering who will give us direction when
it does hit. As for the public safety commission, I ask you to consider allowing it to remain a separate
errtity, tt ha's proven~ wa:l~able:resom, ce for past city councils and a place where citizens could :go with
safety questions and concerns. Many safety programs that are now in existence can trace their
15
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
beginnings to recommendations that were made by the public safety commission. Finally, everyone in
this room is aware that you hold the power here. You can choose to reject everything yoWve heard and
will hear tonight. But I ask you to consider that the changes that you've already made at city hall and
which are not irrevocable, are enough for now. I think if healing is to begin in our city, it has to begin
here and it has to begin with you. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Carol Dunsmore: Carol Dunsmore, 730 West 96th Street, Chanhassen. I've been a public safety
employee for 11 years January, since January 2na. I feel like I'm here at my execution. I feel like I'm
here at my sentencing. Ever since you forced Scott Harr to resign I have hated to come to work.
Absolutely hated it, and I feel I've been a very loyal employee. I loved my job. I just enjoyed coming to
work. And I hardly ever called in sick. I've got almost 700 hours of sick time built up. I mean I loved
coming here. I loved getting up in the morning and coming here. But since December 9th, I hate to even
think about coming here. It's very upsetting. There's no, the morale is so bad in the public safety
department and we're losing some dynamite employees because of this, what is going on and it's horrible
and we're all looking for work elsewhere.
Leah Hawke: Leah Hawke, 7444 Moccasin Trail. You're going to have to forgive me. I'm not very well
prepared. I'm actually quite sick, as is my child but I feel strong enough about this issue to be here
tonight. I'm a resident that wants a fiscally sound council. I think we pay already too much in taxes, but
you know what'? I want to be able to walk the streets of Chanhassen and feel safe. I want to go to the
library at night with my kids. I want them to be able to be outside without me having to be there to watch
them every minute. I moved from Brooklyn Park to Chanhassen for that specific purpose. The crime
rate in Brooklyn Park was outrageous. People are moving here for the services they are getting. They
are looking at the statistics. This is a good place to live. We had a good program in Chanhassen and as a
resident, not as a Scott Harr groupie that I'm being referred to, although I will tell you I'm proud to be in
what I think is a very elite group, my question for this council remains. Why are we going this.'? What
wasn't working? No one's answered that question~ I've sat through what I believe to be the only council
session on this issue looking at reorganization. That question never came up~ There are four important
components to strategic planning. I've been through them many times, lam sure Mr. Engel, working in a
corporation has been there too. The first is you identify your objective. Maybe that's in the strategic
plan that you sent to my family. I'm not quite sure. That's coming back to you because I don't believe in
it. Number two. You identify the strengths of the programs that you currently have. I haven't seen that
done. I think residents have done more homework to look at the accolades Chanhassen has received for
the programs put in place than I've seen this council do in their work session. Does anybody know? Has
anybody looked at it? Has anybody said, what's working in Chanhassen? Am I going to get an answer to
my question?
Mayor Mancino: We're just taking your comment. Thank you Leah.
Leah Hawke: When do I get answers to my questions? Are you telling me that as a resident I'm not
entitled to them? I just want to be clear on the record because I'm going to stop wasting my time with
this council if that's the case. Are you going to answer questions or not?
Mayor Mancino: Leah, you go ahead and make your comments and when we have time to give back, we
will.
16
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Leah Hawke: Okay, so I continue to wait. This will go into month three of waiting for a response to the
question of what is not working in Chanhassen.. I just want to go on the record with that Mayor. You're
refusing again to, okay perfect. So we haven't identified what our strengths are. Okay. That's my
observation as a resident. We haven't gone out there and solicited input from the people that have used
our services. We haven't looked at what, Linda you're looking at me with that smile. I don't know. Tell
me. I haven't seen it in any meeting.
· Councilwoman Jansen: My jaw just dropped was all.
Leah Hawke: Okay. And then what you do after you've identified the strengths is you identify the
opportunities for improvement and you do that very carefully so that you don't have employees telling
you that they're looking for work. You don't have employees leaving. You look at the way in which you
want to go and you do it through attrition or any other means. I've sat here and watched these people
essentially told your job might go if we decide to go this route. Your job may go. My question again to
this council is Option 3B. Okay, you've got all the costs for that. What about the other options? And if
money is so important, why have we spent about $320,000.00 in settlement costs for employees? When
we didn't even know the direction we were going to take. So I look at this process and it's horribly
broken. We've not followed a normal strategic planning process so I'm left here standing asking, why
are we doing this? There's got to be something else that's driving this. And again, you're not listening
to the people that have the expertise. With all due respect, you're not law enforcement officials.
Residents are going to look to the people that know and in my opinion, that's the members that you put
on your public safety commission. You put them there for a reason. To advise you. And my question
again to this council is, why aren't you listening? And this is a significant change for Chanhassen.
Perhaps this warrants the task force that you believe needs to be established here. Put some residents on
a task force. Put them there with law enforcement officials and put them there with council members.
This is a huge change for Chanhassen. Some of these options I didn't even know were under
consideration. And I really think that similar to the siren issue when people become aware of something,
they will react to it. Right now the public's not quite sure what's going on here. They just know that
lhere are changes, potential changes down the street. They aren't thinking how that could impact them
and I think we need to give them the facts and we need to give them the opportunity to give input when
they know exactly what you're doing, because they're not educated enough right now about this
particular issue to know what's going on. And finally I will say too. I have two small children. And
similar to Mr. Ayotte, you'd better be sure that my tax dollars are protecting my children. Because I will
look to this council if something happens to them. And if the police don't respond when I have people
poking around my house, I will look to this council for an answer why. I'll just check my notes here.
Finally, the big question for me as I look at all the numbers and again, I'm not an expert. But I want to
know what we're paying and what we're getting and I want to know it for each option and I want to know
what will be lost before I can appropriately comment on which direction we should go here. And finally,
! want to know how much we are spending per person in the city of Chanhassen and I want to know
comparable cities, how much are they spending. So we're not looking at, we're looking at it apples to
apples. And with that I'll sit down.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Burgett: I'm very sorry. I forgot to say something I think is important. There were two letters
to the editor last week and the week before then. An article about the $566.00 cell phone bill that was
attributed to Scott. I was the staff member that was involved with getting in touch with Air Touch
Cel:tular:aborrt xtris. ~ teas xomlty their mistake. His use that month actually would have been $6t. t.0.
They had sent him the wrong phone. They had put him on the wrong program, which was $249.00 a
17
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
month for 1,000 minutes. They had charged him for two months and I do have all this that I could show
you so it really was just a big mistake. They should have sent Scott a digital phone to replace his broken
one which when I did speak to Katherine at customer service she said how sorry she was to me and she
agreed that she would send us, at no charge to us, a brand new digital phone which she has done. I do
have that. She's crediting the account with $249.50. She's giving us 200 free minutes of cell phone time
and she's allowing us to keep the other phone so they are trying to make it up to us. But it's just, to me it
was just another example of how people are looking for things to pull Scott down. I know he's gone and
I accept that now. We don't know why but you had your reasons but I just wanted you to know that I
think this one's unfair to charge him with this when no research was done. No one came and asked
anyone in the department the reason for this high bill and I easily could have explained it and then he
wouldn't have been slighted in the newspaper.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Dave Dummer: Good evening, I'm Dave Dummer from 8523 Drake Court. I've been in the city for
'about 24 years now. Over the last 15 years I've got a real intimate knowledge of city hall through some
pretty close references. I'm also knowledgeable of public safety having served on it for six years and
been it's chair for one year. l'm knowledgeable of the sheriff's department having spent a couple years
in a study that we did and brought it to the people at the county of what's happening over there. I'm also
quite knowledgeable in the way of finances. I am an MBA. I'm a CMA, etc, etc. I'm a military person
for 25 years and I have to call to your attention that your knowledge of what you're discussing is a
vacuum. It is terrible that I could sit here, when one person speaks and I could challenge every bit of data
you have as being at best incomplete. Please go back and get the data. One place you can get it is the
public safety commission. They will help you. They will probably give you 60% to 80% of it, but
looking at costs. Trying to say I'm going to replace a public safety director with a patrol officer~ That's
not apples and apples. That's apples and oranges. So get your information straight. Bill Bemhjelm has
said it. Bob has said it. You are operating in a vacuum. Get your data down before you decide anything.
Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Leslie Michel: Leslie Michel, 2840 Washta Bay Road. I waited for a while to speak up here and I'm a
little nervous but I've also been on the public safety staff for 4 years. I have to correct you Todd. My
percentage with law enforcement is a little higher than 5 or 10. I probably spend about 40 to 50% of my
time doing law enforcement work with the deputies and everything else that goes on. More than half my
day is spent doing law enforcement work. The only thing I'd like to say is that I've lived in Chanhassen
for 9 years also and worked in law enforcement for 20 years at different agencies. Having somebody
right in Chanhassen and having a city entity is so very important to a community. To focus on individual
things such as your crime prevention issues. Your community policing. It's essential. I have also you
know pros and cons with going with the county. Sure, you know Bud would snatch up a contract in a
heartbeat but we do have the issues also ora full county. Is Chanhassen going to get lost in all that if
Bud has to provide services to the whole county? Where does Chanhassen stand in that as to the size of
our city? And my children, my animals running at large. We have to realize the focus of the city versus
the county and I don't want to see us getting swallowed up in the county. Because you know it's a large
county. We set precedence and go with the county on this, you're going to see all the smaller cities out
and about that are going to do the same thing and want the same assistance from the deputies and from
animal control and all that and then where does that leave Chan? You know we may not be priority
number one anymtn'e,aztmre xve are within our own city and to me that's very important. As a resident
and also as an employee here. And to speak for Elizabeth and Carol, it's been very tough on us. And I
18
· City,Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
gm one of those employees that you probably will be losing shortly and it's been very tough and that's all
want to say. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Jim Sloss: Jim Sloss, 9360 Kiowa Trail. I am the present Public Safety Commission Chairman. And I
will certainly work with the council and staffto come up with the proper recommendation that all of our
people here wish to see. It's been a trying time and if the commission is still in, we will certainly try and
provide the assistance and make the recommendations that the council will need. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Patsy Bernhjelm: Patsy Bernhjelm, 9380 Kiowa Trail. I just have a question based on what
· Councilmember Engel had to say about the hearing getting over because you're leaving at 8:30 and not
voting on anything. Does that mean that, and you talked about tabling it. Does that mean that tonight is
going to be the only public hearing or it will be tabled for further discussion by public or not?
Mayor Mancino: We'll talk about that.
Patsy Bemhjelm: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. And make a decision.
]3arb'KliCk: Barb Klick. Looks like I may be the last speaker. I'd just like to step back and to all this
reorganization and it started way before I became aware of it. I don't know what's going on. I'm trying
~Io £md out as a good citizen. I'm trying to find out information. I'm trying to give feedback. I'm trying
~o hold elected officials accountable. We all stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us
and that includes our prior elected officials as well as other citizens who have lived here. We had
systems that were working. We had a city manager that was here for 22 years. Apparently that wasn't
working. Reorg, demoted. We had a public safety director that was here for 12 ½ years. I've seen his
l-IR files. I've heard of you know people hiding behind data privacy. I'd like to know what the issues
were. Still no idea what was wrong with that. Reorg. Termination under duress. We had a public safety
commission and we have had different conversations. They're in. They're out. They're in. They're out.
This is in your strategic plan. Connecting with the community. Getting more voice piece. Apparently
now that's not working. I've read recently of a newspaper, who is the official newspaper and they've
been reporting the stories that are going on. Apparently they aren't working and we're looking for other
vendors. I mean is this common practice? Do we look for new vendors each year? Do vendors solicit to
us? I have grave concerns about the reorganization that you're all about and it really needs to be
involved with us. Thank you.
Wes Dunsmore: Wes Dunsmore, 730 West 96th Street. I do appreciate you guys taking input. I know
it's not fun sitting on that end but that's what you get the big bucks for I guess. I don't know the whole
issues about this public safety but I know there's a lot of talk here on the money issues and stuff.
Wondering what the price is on quality. I'm not out just for the cheap stuff. I know we have to watch the
dollars and I really do appreciate that. But we want quality with it. I don't care, you don't have to put a
name into that position but we are looking for quality I think. And I don't know if everybody
understands what all the safety. I hear a lot of talk about a little bit of patrolling and some fire you know
trai~ing anrl sm'ff.iikexgm't. I ~think 'there's a lot 'that I don't even know behind the scenes ~hat public
safety does. There's a lot of issues. They deal with other communities. They have that touch that only
19
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
you have by being in that position~ I know I work for the government for going on 28 years now and the
things that you learn by having contact in other departments, other municipalities, it's really an
educational thing. You can't put that on a college degree or anything else. It's that human contact that
you have and I don't think you can separate public safety and just kind of disperse it. In my opinion, I
don't think that works. I have no speech written up but I think as some people here mentioned, the real
issues aren't out. And they probably never will be. They.'re looking for reasons why we're here. As an
ex-marine and Viet Nam vet, I take my freedoms and rights pretty serious. I would like to know some of
the reasons. I think I have a right to know. So we can deal with it. Get the cloudiness out of here. I
don't know if we'll ever hear that but it sure would.be nice. And I guess I do expect and I'll accept
nothing less than 100% honesty from our government officials. If we can't get it there, where do we get
it? I thank you for your time.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Leah Hawke: One more comment. It's from my kids. I promised I would say it. They just had two
questions for the council and that is, are you going to get rid of the fire hydrant full of candy and what
happens to the trading cards.
Mayor Mancino: Anyone else wishing to contribute to the public hearing, and then we'll close it.
Mona Kerber: Mona Kerber, 500 Chanview. My husband grew up in this city and I've been here for 25-
26 years. He's been on the fire department for 25 years. And along with him so have I. And as all the
other fire department wives, I would hope that you would make sure the public safety helps to keep them
safe as far as the police being able to be there to help them out. I know that Scott Hart was at quite a few
fires. At major things. We don't only go to fires but they respond to all the accidents and everything else
that happens. The cut finger. The whatever. And not only do the police officers and the fire department
people respond to that~ So do the wives and the children of those people. And we're concerned for their
safety. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: We'll close the public hearing and bring this back lo council for discussion and
comment. Mark, you need to leave at 8:30?
Councilman Engel: Roughly, yes.
Mayor Mancino: And would you like to give some comment and.
Councilman Engel: Sure, I'll kick it off. This just goes, I got writers cramp from writing notes here and
just more data. This just goes right to the point where I'm in no position to make a decision on this
tonight. If we stayed here until 1:00 in the morning I still wouldn't be. There's too much to think about.
And just to get it on the record. I also have three children. The oldest one is 6 years old so there's
nobody in the community that cares more about public safety than I do and I think it's anybody with
children cares about that. So I'm going to make this decision with that in the back of my mind if not in
the front so. And as everybody else up here on this council has their reasons for why they're concerned
about safety, my children's most important for me. Economics, yes. Structure and reporting and long
term quality and direction. Those are all the other things I'm thinking about. I've looked at all these
options. There are just so many variables right now, I can't pick one that I just flat out. I don't like 3, I
don't like I. I like 1 with 2A and 2B. Or not 2B, I don't know yet. But it just needs some more thought.
I'm thinkir~g of~probahly:a'-hybfid is what'.s going to be the result of all this. I don't know what .that
hybrid is. It's going to have the best components of what I, personally what I think is the best of each
20
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
one. I'm just off the top of my head I'm not comfortable with seating all the control of our public safety
functions to the county for precisely the reason one of you brought up and that was, you are serving two
ma.stem. Who is going to get the short end of the stick on certain days? I don't know. I'd like to talk to
some of the people involved in Andover and see how they handle that because they get all there's from
Anoka County. I'd like to hear from some of their staff. Todd, if there's anyway we could do that. Get
some feedback. If they ever feel or experience that the Anoka County master outweighs the Andover
master, I'd like to see that. For those of you who weren't here last week, Linda put together a terrific
page of information. And Andover seems like, I'm not going to say anybody's a perfect fit but they're a
pretty dam good one. They've got a lot of the same issues involved with growth that we do. They're a
community that was out, away from the city. The suburbs are growing out and stretching to reach them.
They're growing along the same rate. They've got roughly the same population. Their demographics are
probably fairly similar so I'm going to use them for lack of anybody else as probably my first point of
reference, and there are several others as well so there are some models out there that we can look at and
make some judgments on. It wouldn't be taking place in a vacuum. All these decisions are going to take
a lot of interaction. I think we just started last, actually we've been starting since December when these,
when we even first decided to say well do we still need the public safety commission and department. !
don't know. We weren't really discussing that back then. Now is when we're discussing that and I think
there will be a lot of discussion over the next week or two or more. And I've got a lot on my mind with
this right now. I don't favor any options. I think it's going to be a hybrid and I don't know what that
&ybrid is yet.
Mayor Mancino: Are you thinking that you would be ready at the next City Council...to make a
.decision? Are you looking for more input...?
Councilman Engel: I'd like to think about everything I've got here. I'd like to talk to some more people.
I'd like to get some feedback from Todd on how Andover and Anoka County specifically are dealing
with these issues. I'd like to know if Bud Olson is excited to take this on, would it be under the condition
or would we establish the condition that they give us an all inclusive contract which we don't have right
now. I mean if we're going to go with that type ora contract, we'd need that. So I want to know if that's
involved as the cost change. You know I don't know. Do we still have $102,000.00 cost advantage if we
put those services in the contract or is that part of the contract? This is all the details we really don't
have and we just need to get that out there. Once I've got that, I think we can start flushing out some
alternatives. We could start putting some hybrid models together and saying here's something that looks
good to me. Linda could put something together. Mark could put something together. I'd like to see us
all come up with that. Go over it in some work sessions. One work session at least. And debate what we
lhink is a good model. I like the start but I'm just not ready to pick one. So I'm ready to move forward
by getting a little bit more detail first behind what would be involved in a full contract. I'm still a little
uncomfortable with that because we lose total control of our community policing. But I'm not closed to
any decision either so I'd like to see it. But I'd like to start skinnying down the options a little bit. We
probably are going to expand them first and then start skinnying the list down so I'd like to see some
hybrid models put together and discussed. And I think I could do that by next work session. I'd be
ready to do that with next work session. Yeah. I'm going to stick around. I usually run through
airports.
Mayor Mancino: Well let me know. Steve.
Councilman Labatt: The first thing is, I mean we're a week away from interviewing a new city manager.
Or applicants. P~,obably ~i~hi-n 30 days .from .offering a job. 60 days from having a new city manager.
Occupying the vacant office upstairs. Why are we discussing this when we are looking 60 days down the
21
~City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
road of hiring a new city manager? Why not wait until this person's on board? Let this person get
acclimated to working in Chanhassen to the community. Understand our needs as a city and then let this
new person, whoever it might be, or she, make some decisions. So I'll throw that out there first. And I'll
also, is it even the responsibility of the council to tell the city manager how he has to organize his
departments? ...departments and where he puts employees. That's just another question Fll throw out
there. Okay, well I'm just. I'm just throwing that question out. Is he asking us for input but his final
decision is with him or do we have the final say? I don't know where we sit in our responsibilities as a
council. I heard some very enlightening comments tonight. Too little information. Too fast. New city
manager. I heard from, emotional pleas from staff as to what the impact on them has been the last two
months. So I'll throw those comments out there. And then looking at the options. You know why...ship
broken? Why not just leave it as is with Option 1. It's worked well for 13 years... Option 3. Linda
provided us some facts and some numbers here. And as...point out that in Option 3, under the cost
estimate for full police coverage from Carver County it incorporates 54 hours daily but I think that, I
don't think it's any fault of Linda's or intent but we would need to, you know obviously there's other
costs in here. $17,000.00 for one squad car. So if we're going to increase 36 hours or so. Whatever. 32
hours of police coverage. If we're going to increase the additional police coverage, we're going to have
to buy police cars. That's going to be another cost in the contract that we're going to be charged for.
And then we also need to look at the supervision. Right now we're paying fbr...extent of $137,000.00.
That incorporates manual costs of...and using the formula here to $137,000.00. We're going to be, we're
going to have to adjust that to the tune of probably $75,000.00 by having one of the newly appointed
Lieutenants, since SheriffOlson's going through the board down there, providing supervision up here.
So that would be a cost of $75,000.00 by this middle grounding this...chief deputy salary. It might be
more. It might be less. So I think there's more cost that we need to look overall with all three options
and I would reserve more time for the end for additional comments when they come up...
Mayor Mancino:...
Audience: Mayor, we can't heat' you.
Mayor Mancino: Excuse me.. oto another work session?
Councilman Labatt: Yeah. Another work session but let's give it some time here. I mean this is not
something we're going to be able to discuss next week with hearing from the residents. Have a chance to
digest information.
Mayor Mancino:...
Councilman Labatt: I'll go on the record too like Councilman Engel, I've got three kids under 18
months so they're my first priority.
Mayor Mancino: Councilwoman Jansen.
Councilwoman Jansen: I guess I want to maybe reply to some of the comments that came out this
evening and last Monday night in our work session one of the things that was moved on right at the end
of that session was that there would be two of us on this council working as a committee and calling and
taking input and getting feedback and basically bringing to the table more information as far as being
able to make the decision. I'm looking around and there are many people in this room that I did speak
with. I did put lhe p'ho~ne ~al'ls in.and lookext'for the input. I touched'base with staffand t wilt say.now
thank you to the staff members who have been extremely professional. Spent the time with me on the
22
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
phone. Giving me input and one of the things that I did express at that time xvas that I am certainly
sensitive to what has been going on within the department. Mr. Labatt and I did go through an
orientation program. We were introduced to all the different functions and personnel and had a
wonderful exposure to this department and how it is structured. What makes it work. The significant
parts of it that in fact everyone speaks to as having make it work. And I acknowledge those things. And
hopefully those are the things that yes, we can both bring to the whole decision making process. In the
course of speaking with people this week, and meaning staff as well as a couple of the commission
representatives, I heard more than once get this done. The morale is low. We are hurting. There's a
feeling of when is the next shoe going to drop. We don't know what's happening. You know it was
make it stop. So it's a little difficult to then sit here and hear additional comments about how can you
make that decision now. You want us, and myself. I speak as an individual here. You want us to be
sensitive to what's going on within the city and making sure that you know safety is covered. That we're
doing all the right things. And I'm hearing from internally, we need direction. We need to get this done.
We need to get on with our lives. And we need to get down to business. Now if we do our diligence and
that is what we're charged with. And yes, I started from you know presenting some numbers here
because if we're doing this for the right reason, yes. Quality is an issue. It is a major issue and making
sure that we have the right service. I'm not hearing anyone say anything negative about our share of
deputies but no one has said, some of those deputies have been with Chanhassen for 10 years. And we're
one of the high bid positions within the deputy ranks. We're getting high seniority deputies. And any
time I have, myself have had to call and use their services before I was familiar with the city, I didn't
.distinguish between our officers and the Carver County deputy office. But I can tell you that it was, they
were deputies that showed up you know for every call ever placed from our home. They were
exceptional professionals and it didn't matter for how minor. These were not emergencies and the
deputies were there in wonderful response time. So to think that we're making a decision in a vacuum
when we've all sat here and the faces have become familiar after what, 60 days? I think we have all,
whether we admit it publicly or not, we have spent a tremendous amount of time thinking about this.
Asking questions. Is it fair for us to be calling the employees and asking them some of those questions?
I don't know. ! mean they're going through a lot right nowD We've now called them. Gotten input. But
to research this, we have to look beyondD We look for other county sheriff contracts so that we could do
comparisons. Is another community our size properly covered by a Carver County sheriff's contract?
And so I mean yes, we are doing our homework. We're bringing in the numbers. If you bring the
numbers in you have to say, are xve getting quality services at a cost effective price or we're not doing
our jobs. I mean that is our job and yes we have to look for the safety. I don't want to carry on too much
.~t len~h but I know I did my goals as to in the end what are we trying to accomplish. And I could speak
to that now but I mean I'd be taking.
Bob Ayotte: ...I want to know what the response time for a police officer in...
Mayor Mancino: Excuse me Bob. Please. This is not, the public hearing is closed. If you can just wait
please for her. She has the floor. Thank you.
Councilwoman Jansen: If there's a problem with response time, it's not been brought to this council's
attention.
Bob Ayotte: I didn't say there was. I'll talk to you after...
Mayor Mancino: Or you can at least wait until we're done and we open it up. Thank you.
23
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilwoman Jansen: And again, looking at what is working. If we're going to change anything, and
~this was looking at all of the options that were presented to us by Mr. Gerhardt, 1 through 3B. And
looking at those long term. Long term. Long term planning. We need a unified focus, community
policing service. The most cost effective means of providing quality public safety service to the
community. The resulting organization needs to provide for visibility and accessibility to the
community. Connectedness and interdepartmental cooperation and communication between all public
safety service organizations. That is what we are so renowned for. Is that we integrate all of these
services into a well tuned working machine. The Carver County Sheriff's department. Chanhassen fire
fighters. Minnesota State troopers. Paramedic services from two different communities. Southwest
Metro Drug Task Force and then you've go the Department of Natural Resources Conservation Officers.
So I mean, and I also noted etc. I know I've got MADD that I need to account for and there's you know
probably several others. But communities manage to coordinate those things. We need to just make sure
that we've got that mechanism in place or maintain it as any changes were to happen. Continued support
for community policing. The bicycle patrol, water patrol. Continued support for crime prevention
programs. The local control and identity. That is a major issue that going back even through the 80's
comes up in all of the reports is that a major concern was whether or not we would be able to maintain
the local control. Monitoring and reporting of successes and deficiencies. We need to be sure that we
have a mechanis~n in place that's tracking where we are and what's happening. Reporting back.
Suggesting if we've got problems, then how do we address them. Whether that's you know the liaison
commission or you know I guess it was called a police liaison commission at one point. And get the
significant players involved so that there's open communication. And those were all things that in the
process of doing my research on the background of where this department's been in Chanhassen, came
out as significant issues. That I think we've all paid time thinking about. I mean it does. It gets down to
are our streets safe? Is our community well covered? But how do we best do that? Because the initial
plan didn't have a splintered department to where the one internally continued to grow and we held the
patrol hours flat. And the patrol hours have been flat for 5 years and I realize that there's been the
significance of our having you know the internal hours, but you know where are we shorting and if it is
under one umbrella, is that being better addressed in totality? And in the conversation with Sheriff
Olson, he understands the significance of the coverage that we need. The community orientation that we
need. And he is prepared to step up and put into a transitional plan what this community needs. It's like
Andover said to me, they are the biggest community within Anoka County. And they are significant to
Ihe sheriWs department so the sheriWs department bends over backwards to make sure that Andover's
happy because they don't want to lose that contract. It's a completely perspective so then are we asking
of the sheriWs department what we need? And what I'm hearing is they will put our emblem and serving
Chanhassen on the sides of the cars. They'll provide the patrol hours that we need. Those are all things
~:that Andover spoke to as well that were important. And we need to make it visible to the comnmnity. I
went back through a year and a half worth of quarterly newsletters and we make stand out our logo and
our Chanhassen city employees very nicely. But we need to say to the community call the sheriWs
department. They're there. We need to show them. Your know a flier to the community with the phone
number for the sheriW s department. I floored a few people who said well I only know to call 911. Well
call the non-emergency number for the sheriWs department, 36 I-123 I. I mean but do we get that
information out there? I mean they're significantly in our community and I'm, I guess what I'm reacting
to is I heard here tonight that we're not answering the questions. We're not saying how we're doing it or
why we're doing it. And I have welcomed the phone calls. I have spent hours speaking with anyone who
has approached me and said, come on. You know we'd like some feedback. If what you're saying is are
we going to get our answers to the letters in the Villager, I don't know if that's a communication tool, I
don't take it that way. I don't pick up the phone and call the authors so if I'm offending someone by not
doing'that,:then :Imp'o:l~)g~ze. But ! would better be able to communicate from a phone call and t .don't
know that anyone has ever refused to take a phone call but I certainly haven't. And I certainly approach
24
:City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
the employees and said now's the time. Now is the time to say you know what it is that we need to be
addressing. Inform us. Let us know what the key issues are and again thank you. They did.
Councilman Engel: I'd like to state just before I take off. I know I don't have to remind Councilman
Senn of this but there's a complete record of the minutes for everything said in the council meeting so I
would invite you please, if you continue making comments. Speak directly into that microphone so that
lhe minutes are clear because it gives us a chance to review all this over the weekend. Thursday when
we get our packet for next week. And if the deputy would be so kind as to give me a 3 minute head start
out of the parking lot and clear 494, I'd appreciate it.
Mayor Mancino: Councilwoman Jansen, would you like to see this move forward to the next work
session? Maybe Roger, can we just stop this and forward to the next work session and continue this
discussion?
Roger Knutson: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you.
Roger Knutson: You can table this item to...time you think is appropriate.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Councilwoman Jansen: I obviously want everyone to be able to gather the information and I thought
that's what we were doing. So if Councilman Engel needs more time, I think mine isn't short the process
:but I do think that, and again if the employees feel differently then they need to you know counter what
:they said to me this week. But I got the sense that this, if there's going to be a change, then they need
completion. They need to start the healing process is what they're saying to me. I mean that's what I
heard. That's what I was told.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: Well hearing what I think is probably the consensus at this point to put this to another
work session, I think I'll be very brief. Plus I don't want to be repetitive. Many of the steps which
Councilperson Jansen traced also traced I think, I can't speak as to what each and every city council
person has done in terms of their due diligence but I think the majority of the council has taken this issue
very seriously as it relates to due diligence. We've, you know everything from contact other cities to see
how other cities are doing it to getting data and information that's available to us and organizations to
spending several occasions meeting with and talking with the sheriff. Sheriff department and staff.
The...last weeks efforts of, especially in terms of the contacts and calls that we asked her to make a week
ago and feedback from that. I think that personally there's enough information there to proceed with
basically discussion and decisions that we need to make. I too think that, and a lot of the comments I've
been getting is let's get it done with. And I'm trying to get it done with and move on potentially we
aren't quite to that point and it's another week to do that which I'm hearing a few people say, then so be
it but let's move on and get it done.
Councilman Labatt: I think one comment here as far as, Linda referred to having a mechanism in place.
! think we had a mechanism in place with the public safety director. He saw to it that our needs as a
community were being.met .-in the case ofth'e contract. And.. ~Option 1. And during my campai, gn this
past fall, not once did I hear somebody...did I hear lower my taxes by removing the public safety
25
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
department... There's a lot of other little programs out there that Chan Public Safety does that the Carver
County Sheriff does not do.. °programs that many of us are aware of. Crime prevention. Things that
:Scott and Beth have done. Sometimes it's just the little things that, stick with what you have so...
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. I'll give just a few of my comments. And mine are mostly ditto from
everyone elses as far as getting, tabling this til Monday. But a few of the things that I've heard, and I
want to go back to another area in public safety that we h'hve gotten as a council a lot of input from, not
at tonight or a month ago but has been inspections. And that has been from the Chamber of Commerce.
A lot of the members there when we have gone to a meeting and they spoke to the entire council in
September and we broke up into different tables and they had lots of concerns about inspections. In fact
they faxed to us in the inspections, this is from their concerns to us. Are the members of the council and
the city staff aware of the increased cost of doing business in Chanhassen due to the manner in which city
inspectors pass judgment? Comment. These increased costs are passed onto business owners and
tenants which puts them at a competitive disadvantage to those doing businesses in other communities. It
also discourages the business community investing and serving those who live here. Construction is over
inspected compared to neighboring cities. Little or no judgment is used to whether alternatives proposals
meet the intent of the code. Rather builders are required to meet the strictest interpretation of code.
They also say, do we discourage business by harassing them with new construction and alternation cost
required by building inspections, and that is in all due respect to the inspections department. Not to say
anything about that, but to let you know that we are getting feedback and we have been for the last year
from other community members that have been concerned with some of the way the public safety
department and what's going on in there. And again, they have called. They have voiced concerns and
wanted us to look in that area and whether inspections should be kept under public safety or whether it
should be moved to community development. And the philosophy that they have passed on to council
members is, wouldn't it be more user friendly under community development and it is also that way in
most other cities. So they did want us to look at that and have brought that up to the council again many
limes and I know that that hasn't been talked about in the last couple of months° We still, we need to
listen to those other members of the community. So that is something that I think we also need to talk
~about xvhen we...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Mayor Mancino: That's Tuesday, excuse me. On the 17th. Thank you. What is the 16th?
Roger Knutson: Presidents Day.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much. Then I do, I would like to spend some time going over not only
the numbers but the quality of services compared to the numbers that Linda handed out tonight and look
at that and understand it. And also the goals that you have written down. That was just a wonderful
presentation. So with that can we.
Conncilman Labatt: I'd like to make just one more comment.
Mayor Mancino: Sure.
Councilman Labatt: .o .inspections. I was curious about inspections too and in fact I had two inspectors
out at my house today doing my basement and my deck, neither of which passed I will proudly admit.
Elat it brings up :a :poiat. ~,mean with why it didn't pass you know~ And it was right from building.code.
The same code that every city goes off of and the glass railing I had my deck did not have the tempered
26
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
glass logo on there which is required by building code. Now I've got to go back. Get a hold of the
contractor to f'md out for sure that it was tempered glass and building code° There's a reason for that is
number one, safety. If the glass breaks, it breaks into little itty bitty pieces. Not big shards and hurt
someone. And is it a hassle for me? Not really. I don't really mind. I mean you know, sure. The
inspectors have to come back out. It's probably more of a hassle for them. But I also have some
comment cards here that I got from the inspections department. And here's one here from, am I allowed
to say the names here? Who they're from?
Mayor Mancino: You don't need to, do you? I mean just to give the comment.
Councilman Labatt: Well...say names on who's commenting.
Roger Knutson: I don't know what you're reading so I can't.
Councilman Labatt: Well comment cards.
Roger Knutson: ...it falls under the government data privacy act.
Councilman Labatt: Okay. Here's one from Eden Trace Company. Are there any areas we need to
improve? I've had a very good working relationship with the building department and appreciate their
quick. . .of my plan reviews and inspections. My experience with city employees has been pleasant and
x~ery professional. Special thanks to Steve Kirchman and Bob Reid. Another one here from a guy name
Bob. Excellent service overall. I think we need to take a look at these here. Try to maintain a 24 hour to
48 hour lead for inspections. And comments I've heard when Linda referred to it the day her and I rode
.along with the inspectors before we were sworn in. Every inspection I went to, the building sup or the
developer said we need more inspectors. We can't wait 48 hours to get inspectors in because there's
development so, in such high demand here. Another one here, the inspectors always appeared on time.
You know a lot of inspection times for a lead time and...so there's all kinds ofconm~ents here that, as
long as the co~mnents are being made about the inspectors and the ones that you led to. Refer to were
negative in context. I got very positive ones too that I thought.
Mayor Mancino: Well, and I wasn't trying to do a tit for tat thing with inspections.
,Councilman Labatt: I know you weren't.
Mayor Mancino: I'm just saying that.
Councilman Labatt: I mean I got the supporting documents to say it so.
Mayor Mancino: So that's why we always hear both sides of issues. So may I have a motion please? I
mean I think we're done. I think we want to make sure that Councilman Engel is with us and we're
discussing this and coming to conclusion.
Councilwoman Jansen: I guess if we just again emphasize, if this is being tabled for input, please call.
If you've got new information that you want to share. If you've got questions about what we know or
don't know. If you've got information, you know share and call.
27
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
'Councilman Labatt: Can we, betbre we make a motion, can we re-open the public hearing to 'take
comments tonight when things are fresh in people's minds? Can we do that? Re-open the public
hearing?
Mayor Mancino: Sure.
Roger Knutson: Tuesday, it's not a regular council meeting. It's a work session.
Todd Gerhardt: So no decisions can be made.
Mayor Mancino: No. No...was asking tonight. Sure, we can take a few more comments. We'll take a
few more comments tonight and then that will be it. Public hearing.
Bob ^yotte: Thank you very much Mayor. I appreciate that, Clarification. I am not disagreeing with
the fact that possibly Carver County would be an excellent opportunity. What I am disagreeing over is
the fact that the council has not sought out the expertise to build specification. Scope of work. Congress,
or councilman. You may be a congressman one of these days Senn but right now Councilman Senn. The
point is that you need to push it through but we do not want euthanasia. We need to have the scope
understood. What is the specification? How many acres of lakes do we have? How many linear miles of
road do we have to patrol? Has that data, that empirical data been collected from people like this to say
okay. Now what are the law enforcement issues associated with it? In addition I believe there is a faint
gOing.on. A rouse. Because you're talking about public safety when in fact the organizational charts that
Mr. Gerhardt presented was for an entire city organization. So let's see specification. The requirements
list for everything. Not simply public safety. Then the appearance of rouse won't be there. Then we'll
know that there is sincerity in looking at an organizational structure that will support us as a community.
~o I would ask that you would consider that. And I would ask that you look at the inside experts.
There's nothing wrong with taking the analytical skills of your engineer force to help build a
specification for public safety. It will work. But then you take, you had to bring in the expertise like this
gentleman over here was talking about to take a look at not only the fiscal issues but the other tasks that
have to be accomplished. You don't know your requirements as yet. I don't know then. Fm not
suggesting I do. All I'm saying is I would ask that you research that. And I also would like a point of
clarification. Mr. Gerhardt, did you in fact ask the council to change the organizational structure of the
city? It's either yes, no or I don't know. Those are three answers. Mayor Mancino said to Councilman
Laban, I fl~ought, that you had requested that the organization of the city change. Is that true or not true?
Todd Gerhardt: What was asked was that at the beginning of the year that we would look at.
Bob Ayotte: Todd, could you get closer to the mic?
Todd Gerhardt: At the beginning of the year we were asked to look at the reorganization of city hall.
Not just personnel but also the commissions and we also were asked to look at the public safety
director's position.
Bob Ayotte: Who asked and why?
Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, do you want me to answer these questions?
Mayor Mancino: Suee.
28
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Todd Gerhardt: Okay. It was the directive of the City Council to research these items.
Bob Ayotte: I didn't hear you.
Todd Gerhardt: It was from the City Council.
Bob Ayotte: Okay. And why? What was the rationale for asking for organizational change? Was there
something not operating properly?
Todd Gerhardt: No. When you see the amount of change over that we've seen here, you want to take a
look at your entire structure.
Bob Ayotte: The amount of change over. What change over are you referring to?
Todd Gerhardt: With the vacancy of the public safety director position. Looking at replacing the city
manager position.
Bob Ayotte: That's a fair response. I understand. So because of the organizational change, or the
changes in personnel it would make sense to look at the organization?
Todd Gerhardt: Correct.
Bob Ayotte: Okay. But please, I ask again, please build your spec first. Identify the requirements and
gain some of~he expertise that are out in the community to help you out. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else and then we're closing the public hearing.
Barb Klick: Barb Klick again. Am I con'ect to assume that right now we still have a public safety
commission in existence?
Todd Gefl~ardt: We do have a public safety commission. However, we do not have a public safety
director to assist in taking information back to the public safety conunission so until such time as.
Barb Klick: Okay, but aren't you acting at, aren't you acting in that role? You or Mr. Ashworth?
Who's the lynchpin between the public safety commission if they're in existence and the Council?
Todd Gerhardt: The code calls for a public safety director to coordinator the public safety commission.
Barb Klick: Right. But we don't have one right now so who is assuming the responsibilities? Would that
be Bob Z? Would that be you? And what I'm getting at is, we have a system in place. That's what I was
trying to appeal to you before. I mean we have built this with our fore fathers about a system that has
been working and I've not heard anyone say let's involve the public safety commission for input about
this reorg. This is the biggest thing that has involved public safety in the 12 years since I've lived here.
Why would we not use this expertise that we have in place to give input to how we want the city to look
like? So if that commission is still in place, I think this should be with the input of the public safety
commission. I can't believe how we would work around them or without them. I'd be very dismayed if
that community input was not sought. Thank you.
29
City Council Meeting ~ February 8, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Okay, public hearing is closed on this. Go ahead if you want to get up one
last time.
Leah Hawke: Well I just have a question and that is, there's been a lot of information here and I work
with numbers every day in a brokerage firm but I've not made sense of these yet and I would like an
opportunity, as I'm sure a lot of people in this room would, to look through the information that's been
handed out today so that we could make comment again. :
Mayor Mancino: Sure. We'll have that available. Up at the front desk.
Leah Hawke: ...
Mayor Mancino: Come back up. Come back up.
Leah Hawke: I'm confused. I'm always coming out of these meetings confused so I just want to clarify.
You're going to have a work session and.
Mayor Mancino: They're going to continue this hearing, this discussion at a work session.
Leah Hawke: Right, but the work session rules of procedure don't allow for public comment. Right? So
you're going to continue it but we kind of have to sit back with any information that we might want to
share at that meeting or others, because Fm sure there will be others coming out as this gets known. Ail
I'm asking is there going to be an opportunity for input on the different options? This is the first time
I've seen some of these options.
Mayor Mancino: And part of that can, or most of that can be done with, if you want to call
councilmembers and give them your input, etc, You can do that. You can send it to us. E-mail it to us
with questions and concerns.
Leah Hawke: So there's no more public conunent after tonight on the reorganization? Can I just.
Mayor Mancino: No, not unless the council decides to go to another council meeting.
Leah Hawke: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: Okay? Thank you. Public hearing is closed. We'll go onto our next agenda item.
Thank you. I suppose we do have to make the motion to table this to keep going.
Councilman Senn: What are we talking about doing? Tabling this meeting or action or whatever to the
work session?
Mayor Mancino: Continuing it at the work session on Monday night.
Councilman Senn: So' continuation of this meeting basically to Tuesday night.
Roger Knutson: If you want to be able to take action on Tuesday night.
Cour~'lwoman Jansen:: 'O0n :this item.
30
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilman Senn: What's the proper way that you do that?
Roger Knutson: You table this item to Tuesday night and direct the Acting City Manager to post this as
a regular city council meeting for this item. If you want to take action.
Councilman Senn: Okay. So moved.
Mayor Mancino: Is there a second?
Councilwoman Jansen: I'll second.
Conncilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to table action on the Organizational
Issues until Tuesday, February 16, 1999 at which time action will be taken. AIl voted in favor and
the motion carried.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So it will be on next Tuesday night, February 17d~ work session at, what time do
we start?
Kate Aanenson: It's the 16,h isn't it?
Mayor Mancino: February 16th or is it 17th?
Councilman Senn: Whatever Tuesday is.
Mayor Mancino: Tuesday. Whatever Tuesday is. 17th. It's the 16th. Okay. Tuesday on the 16th.
Jan Lash: ...at the next city council meeting...
Mayor Mancino: We may do it at the work session, depending on whether.
Jan Lash: And you can take action and call for a vote at a work session?
Mayor Mancino: Thaffs exactly, yes.
Jan Lash: Roger?
Roger Knutson: Yes. It will be listed as a regular city council meeting for this agenda item.
Jan Lash: And then you take action on it?
Councilwoman Jansen: Todd, can you still get it advertised in the Villager? Are you doing the work
session things in the Villager?
Todd Gerhardt: I don't believe. Dean just walked out. I don't believe he, I don't think he can get the ad
ia ia t/me tomorrow.
Roger Knutson: It doesn't have to be in the paper.
Mayor Mancino: It doesn't have to be in the paper. No Roger just said it didn't have to be. Patsy, yes.
31
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Patsy Bemhjelm: ...Tuesday night for people to come...
Mayor Mancino: Can we open that up Roger is we continue it? We can open it up if we want to.
Roger Knutson: It's your decision. You can do it either .way.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. It will be our decision to do it that night. My decision if we want to open it up
and usually I open it up to comments. But it would be helpful again to get e-mails or questions that you
have. So again let me make this very clear. Next Tuesday night we are going to continue this
conversation on organization issues. We're going to do it as a council and we will probably do it in a
work session style. How we've been here. How we were before. And at that work session, the
continuation of that meeting, yes I will probably allow for some public comment. But please come with
different comments. New comments than tonight. I mean that would be helpful because obviously, will
we be able to get minutes before the work session? Nann? Nann? You're the hot person on the seat.
Will we be able to get, thank you. So there will be minutes.
Councilman Labatt: Mayor?
Mayor Mancino: Yes.
Councilman Labatt: Maybe it might behoove us to invite the Sheriff to hear his comments. Maybe even
relook at Mark's motion to continue...look at making a decision such as this, going to Option 3, maybe
we could have the chance to talk to him.
,Councilwoman Jansen: Just informationally, we had pursued that with him for this evening but because
of the things on his agenda, that was not a possibility so we were able to at least get comment befbre
Ihere was going to be any conversation going down this line~ But just FYI. Just FYI.
Councilman Senn: Well those of you who haven't, contact him. Go talk to him. That's what we did.
Councilman Labatt: But I think the public would like to hear what he has to say.
Mayor Mancino: That's not a bad idea. Why don't we see if he can make it. Okay.
Jan Lash: Mayor, are you thinking of inviting the public safety board?
Mayor Mancino: Most of them I think are here tonight.
Jan Lash:...
Jim Sloss: ...sort of the way things are going so.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Next item on the agenda. Is everybody ready? Understood?
Councilwoman Jansen: Can we take like a 5 minute please recess?
Mayor Manciuo: Snte.
32
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilwoman Jansen: Sure.
Mayor Mancino: Leah, what's still your question?
Leah Pmwke: No, that's fine. I'm...what we can and can't do and council...
Mayor Mancino: Well Roger is here, if you have a question.
leah Hawke: Well I know Roger is here but I maybe want to do my own research.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. You're welcome to ask him. We're going to take a 5 minute break.
· PUBLIC HEARING: AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE CHAPTER 19~ ARTICLE IV
CONCERNING INDIVIDUAL SANITARY SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTEMS.
Steve Kirchman: Well I lost most of my audience but we'll go ahead anyway.
Councilman Senn: Do you want us to bring them back Steve?
Steve Kirchman: Not unless... Mayor, City Council. Revisions that are required to our current ISTS
septic code were discussed at the November 2nd '98 work session and I've attached the information to the
packet that was submitted for that work session. Our current code does not meet the requirements of
~Chapter 7080, the Minnesota Rules which govern septic systems so our current code has to be revised.
So based on the information you gave me at that work session, we looked into all the possibilities and the
.current Carver County code ordinance adequately addressed all the concerns we had with our ordinance
and offer some additional provisions that staff felt would be beneficial to the city. Those are licensed
ISTS professionals will have standard codes to use throughout the county which will simplify
procedures, provide for less confusion and more uniformity of requirements and inspections on septic
systems. Required septic tank sizes required by the Carver County code are larger than are currently
required by Chanhassen code. These larger, the larger capacity lessens the need for more frequent tank
inspection and/or pumping. Our code currently requires inspection and/or pumping every 2 years but
with a larger capacity we feel that 3 years that is in the Carver County ordinance is adequate. The Carver
County ordinance requires maintenance but has no specifics as to methodology. This permits
Chanhassen to take one of two routes. We can develop our own program. Actually three routes.
Develop our own program. Develop one in cooperation with the county. Or have the county administer
a maintenance program. I've attached a copy of the ordinance revising and adopting Carver County
ordinance 21E. Hopefully everyone's had a chance to review it and compare it to our existing ordinance.
Next item I want to address is septic tank maintenance. Maintenance is important for a couple of
reasons. Periodic, proper tank pumping removes solids from the tanks, preventing the solids from
entering the treatment area and causing premature failure of the ISTS. State rules establish requirements
for tank inspection and maintenance. The rules, as well as the proposed ordinance do not require
pumping unless scum and/or sludge layers have reached critical levels. Review and approval of the
Chanhassen Comp Plan by the Met Council is contingent upon the city having some type oflSTS
management program, or septic tank maintenance program. The terms can be used interchangeably. So,
options. The city may develop and administer it's own management plan or utilize the Carver County
plan which they are in the process of developing and in which case we'd have to work out agreements
with the county on administrative responsibilities. City staff was previously in the process of developing
a plan for tSTS management and.can implement a plan using existing staff and software. We have
somebody on staff who knows how to use access. We've already developed all the letters. We did this a
33
· 'City:Council Meeting - February 8, i 999
couple years ago and then got so busy we had to drop it but we've developed the greater part ofit~ We
need some work from the GIS people as far as determining properties that are, a list of properties that are
on septics but it should be pretty easy to develop. So that's one option. The other option is to go with
the county. They have developed, or have applied for a grant to prepare and implement a plan. Prepare
and implement a plan. City staff estimates that an ISTS management plan can be developed and
implemented by the end of June, 1999. That's if we do it on our own. Met Council will permit
implementation as late as the end of '99 but prefers earlier. Met Council requires a letter from the city
and/or Carver County detailing the management plan along with the date of implementation. Utilization
of the county plan will require joint agreement between the city and county. So what I'm asking you to
do here is make a decision whether you want to let city staff implement a management plan or have
Carver, go with Carver County and use their plan. Basically those two options. So recommendations.
Staff recommends the Council adopts the ordinance. Number one, adopts the ordinance revising and
adopting Carver County Ordinance #21E. And authorize staff to develop and implement an ISTS
management plan. Questions?
Mayor Mancino: I don't have any questions but I just want to make sure Steve that, well I guess I do
have two. You want us to adopt a new ordinance amending our Chapter 19.
Steve Kirchman: That's correct. Basically what we're doing is throwing away our old ordinance
completely and adopting the Carver County ordinance which Roger has revised to take the word county
out and put city in basically.
Mayor Mancino: So it's really our ordinance now amending Chapter 197
'Kate Aanenson: But it's consistent with the County which is one of the things we wanted to make sure°
Mayor Mancino: And secondly, how long will it take Carver County to do?
Steve Kirchman: They aren't able to tell me. They haven't started developing their management plan.
They're waiting for approval of the grant frorn Met Council before they do that.
,Kate Aanenson: My understanding from Jack Frost at the Met Council, they are also obligated to have
theirs in place by the end of 1999.
· Steve Kirchman: That's about what I was to tell her. They have to have theirs in place by the end of the
year per Met Council. And if we give the Met Council a letter saying we're going to use the Carver
County plan, they will also give us til the end of 1999.
Mayor Mancino: Can we wait until Carver County does theirs and then look at it and say whether we
want to you know, make a few revisions and go forward with a revised Carver County management plan?
Like we did much with this one?
Steve Kirchman: That's very likely. I talked to Jack Frost. He said he would give us, the city until the
end of '99. He preferred earlier but he did say that he would do that. I've got his verbal agreement.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Wlmt ~r{e -':re looking for is ~to get ~the adoption of:the comprehensive plan and to
accomplish that we have to have this management plan in place. The second component is, are we going
34
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
to do it or is the county. Either way it has to be done by 1999. What they need from us is a letter saying
that we haven't decided exactly how we're going to implement the management plan. We want time to
study what the county's going to do. That's acceptable. And if we do that, then we have to come back
with a joint powers agreement. But what they're looking for is that we have an action plan and we are
committed to do it by the end of the year. What Steve Kirchman's recommending is that there is another
alternative and that is that we could do it in house ourselves and that was his recommendation is that we
try to do it in-house. The software's there and it can be done in-house. Which gives some local control
so, and Steve can answer those questions better.
Mayor Mancino: Any other questions for staff at this point because I need to open this for a public
hearing.
Councilman Labatt: So if we do it in-house, would you utilize current employees? ...cost in doing it?
Steve Kirchman: It's only going to take us 30 hours of software development time to write the program.
And then we will have to have the city GIS person pull out the places that are on septic, and I don't have
an esti~nate for that cost but I can't imagine it'd be too much because I know, already know 75% of them
so I just need the other 25%. So those are the costs. So those people, that 32 hours, I'm going to lose
that in inspection time because it is going to be one of my inspectors who know access who's going to be
doing this but that's, I can live with that. That's right now we're slowing up so I can work with that.
(Cotmcilman Labatt: So the cost is minimal?
Steve Kirchman: The cost is very minimal. And as far as the Mayor's suggestion that we wait and see
.what the county plan is. We do have to get something to Met Council immediately. Either saying we're
,going to go with the county and then an agreement with the county or we can send them something
saying we're going to do it and send them details of the plan which I am able to do right now and tell
them that we're going to do that and implement it in six months. And if we change our mind I'm sure
they would still let us go with the county because they've already said they'd let us go with the county
and do it, and have til the end of the year to do it.
Kate Aanenson: I think we can say, bide some time and say we're working to see what they come back
-with and we want to study it but either way we're going to have a system in place. That's a third option.
Steve Kirchman: They want to know that we're actively getting it and what it's going to be like and they
want to know that now.
Kate Aanenson: The positive about keeping it in-house is that more than likely, one of the inspectors
may have to go out. If there's a failing system or they're putting a new system in, we're going to be out
there anyway so there may be some duplication. So there may be some pro's to keeping it in-house.
Steve Kirchman: One clarification. We're not looking at systems. The only thing we, we or the county
are going to be looking at is tanks. In this program. That's all this progr~im looks at is tanks. Systems
are looked at through the ordinance that I've recommend you adopt.
Mayor Mancino: This is open for a public hearing. Anyone wishing to address the council.
Councilwoman Jansen, any comments?
35
City Council Meeting ~ February 8, 1999
Councilwoman Jansen: I guess I doWt have any comments beyond what's already been answered as to
whether or not it should be in-house or county seem to be the only question that was looming and I guess
I'd lean towards in-house. Just so that we would have you know more the control.
Councilman Senn: Nothing other than judging from the lack of comment I think we have finally found
an issue or field we have an expertise in.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. In-house? County? Councilman Senn?
Councilman Senn: I said nothing other than°..
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Labatt.
Councilman Labatt: ...
Mayor Mancino: Can I have a motion for our new city ordinance. Please, adopting this. Amending
Chapter 19.
Councilman Senn: So moved.
Roger Knutson: This is the first reading...waive the second reading.
Kate Aanenson: I was going to ask if we could waive the second one.
Conncilman Senn: Move to approve and waive second reading~
Mayor Mancino: May I have a second?
Councilwoman Jansen: Fll second.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve first reading and waiving
second reading to adopt the ordinance revising and adopting Carver County Ordinance #21E, and
amthorizing staff to develop and implement an ISTS management plan. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Do we need a motion to in-house or out of house?
Steve Kirchman: My recommendation was to develop it in-house so.
Mayor Mancino: I think there's consensus here.
Councilman Senn: That's part of your motion.
Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry, do we need to make another motion on that?
Roger Knutson: No. It's staff's understanding that you°..
MayorMancino: Oh, great. ~hankyou.
36
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
APPOINTMENT OF OFFICIAL NEWSPAPER.
Mayor Mancino: Actually I had asked Mr. Trippler to be here. Staff report please.
Todd Gerhardt: At our January 25, 1999 City Council meeting, the City Council had asked staff to look
at getting bids on the official newspaper. During that period the Lakeshore Weekly News was doing
their due diligence and looking at locating an office in Chanhassen. However, at this point they do not
feel comfortable in making that decision and have withdrawn their application of being designated as the
city's official newspaper. Based on that, staff would recommend that the Chanhassen Villager be
appointed the official newspaper for the 1999 calendar year.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions? Comments?
Councilwoman Jansen: I guess I'm feeling somewhat inclined Mayor to comment to this and here I've
said that I don't want to necessarily be replying to editorials but if in fact Mr. Trippler were present I do
feel the need to maybe clarify to him what had triggered the whole conversation as far as you know the
issue of the newspaper and now it appears to the community as if we've tried to undermine their business
and I guess just tracing the time line, you know knowing that every year we designate the legal
newspaper, with the Lakeshore News being aware of that process, they did submit a bid to us and you
know, call it doing our diligence in comparing the bids, it did pan out that if we were to follow the
competitiveness between the two, there was a significant savings. It would have been a 30% savings.
And to clarify that it would have just been the legal notices. We obviously had no intention of knocking
the Chanhassen Villager out of Chanhassen but in the competitive nature that we're trying to make sure
that we're pricing things as sharply as we can back to our residents and coming out of the whole budget
process, in looking at the numbers we really did feel that, and again my apologies to Mr. Trippler
because I did pursue it. And we tabled it because we needed to see if even statutorily we could consider
it. I gather maybe historically we haven't gotten a formal bid at the annual meeting you know to
designate the legal newspaper so maybe Mr. Trippler wasn't aware that that's a regular occurrence. I
gather that happens in all communities. But I did want to maybe clarify, and especially to the residents
and maybe it will take a clarification in the Villager to set that straight. That it wasn't, it was nothing
personal. It was looking at the numbers and where do we best get our cost effectiveness in the legal
notices. It wouldn't have been moving anything else and it would have been significant. About
$5,500.00, which as we came through the budgeting process led you to wonder you know how many
PC's or how many other projects. I mean we definitely had really been through it as far as numbers and I
guess for the record, to apologize to Mr. Trippler that that was taken personally. It certainly was not
meant that way and I don't know if anyone else got a phone call. I know that 1 wasn't approached as far
as any clarification as to.
Mayor Mancino: I did get one and the person who called said that obviously it wasn't in the paper that
there was another bid. That it was 30% lower so they were surprised to hear, oh. You know you send
that out for a bid or whatever and you did get another one 30% lower. And I said so we said to ourselves,
is it apples to apples? If somebody can do it 30% lower, are they really doing the same thing that the
Villager does. And he was very surprised and thanked me for that information. Because it obviously did
not come out that way in the paper. So it's too bad. Anyway, so let's have a motion for the, because the
Lakeshore Weekly News did withdraw.
Councilman Senn: Well I'd like to finish comments first if we could.
Mayor Mancino: Sure.
37
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilman Senn: I'm going to ditto I guess what both of you said. At the same time I'm a little
dismayed that every meeting we've had to discuss this issue, the vendor hasn't been here so we can have
a dialogue with him. Which I would still really like to have before we approve it. Roger even shows up
when we're going to reappoint him City Attorney so. But you know the interesting part is you read one
slant, you know that's evidently appeared in the newspap.er but none of it's...that were concerns and
issues of ours that... So we still haven't had a dialogue and I don't really feel comfortable running in and
rushing into this decision and saying let's just appoint a newspaper when we haven't even had an
opportunity to relay our true comments to them, which have been relayed at meetings but evidently
because they're not there, they haven't got them because those haven't appeared anywhere. Because
,Ih~e's some significant issues since we got into this issue and asked for the background and the
information. We have done our due diligence. I mean there are specific statutory requirements in terms
of what's supposed to be done and that's not what's happening. And I think we need to assure that those
are being done, or at least ask the paper why they can't be done, you know if they present a problem.
And we do also have the ongoing issue of trying to hit all the households which has been an ongoing
issue for as many years as I've been here. And still have no response on that issue. So again I mean, it'd
be nice to have our opportunity to give them input and have a dialogue over this issue before we just
simply, how would I say, reappoint or pass it for another year. Because then what's going to happen is
it's just not going to happen again.
Mayor Mancino: My suggestion would be to go ahead and vote to make it official and also to, Todd if
you could speak with Dean about having him meet with the council at a work session. Take a half an
.hour with Dean and go over maybe some of the concerns about distribution and what official proceedings
xeally are. I don't know if that does it for you. So that would be a suggestion.
Councilman Senn: Well yeah, the statutory requirements you know cover most everything so. In terms
,of what's supposed to be done so we could, but it'd be nice to make sure that we have a meeting of the
minds ,on that.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Labatt: I'll echo your same concerns Mayor. Support the Villager right now. I know the
distribution, I talked with Mr. Trippler and currently I believe he said there's like 5,600 or 5,700 for
circulation. The difference between that and what is in Chan unfortunately the majority of it is out in the
55311. Up on the north side of Minnewashta and the west side. And he assured me that all those people
have m do was call. Give him their address and they would get this free paper.
~Conncilman Senn: It's 55331.
Councilman Labatt: 3317 Okay.
Councilman Senn: And we can give him all the addresses through our GIS system, which is what offered
to do last year.
Councilman Labatt: Well...Fm in support of just, naming the Villager as the official paper now. Get it
over with and...
Mayor Mane, ixto:: Well, :let'.~ do'fnat, i 'want'to ~bring up one other point and that is, if they're free. They
should just be delivered. I don't think somebody even has to call and ask for it. I think Eden Prairie or at
38
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
least I've heard. I don't know how, I heard this more rumor wise. That they deliver to everybody. If you
don't want it, then you call and you say don't deliver it to me. And I think because we just want to make
.sure that our public notices. Nothing else. We just want to make sure that our public notices get out to
.everyone. And so if somebody has to stop and make the phone call, that's called slippage in marketing.
That's how you get the countdown and it's just pure slippage. So if we say to Mr. Trippler, please make
sure, even those, cover that whole 55331 area, which is mine too. Bulk mail it, do whatever you need to
but make sure every household gets it.
Councilman Labatt: That would include Tonka Bay, Greenwood, Shorewood.
Mayor Mancino: No. The post office can pick out, and I can tell you exactly what the numbers are for
Chanhassen, or were, but the post office knows exactly out of 55331 which part is Chanhassen.
Absolutely.
Councilman Senn: They do 55318.
Mayor Mancino: They do. And they do it, I can tell you that through the election process when we do
bulk mails there. Excellent there. They know what those numbers are and who they deliver to. So you
can ask for that. May I have a motion then and Todd, if you'll go ahead and get a meeting.
Councilman Labatt: I'll make a motion we appoint the Chart Villager...
Mayor Mancino: I'II second that.
Councilman Labatt moved, Mayor Mancino seconded to appoint the Chanhassen Villager as the
official newspaper for 1999. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
PRELIMINARY PLAT OF OUTLOT B, ARBORETUM BUSINESS PARK AND THE
SOUTHERN 100 FEET OF CITY OWNED PROPERTY (WRASE) INTO TWO LOTS;
LOCATED SOUTH OF HIGItVVAY 5 AND EAST OF TH_4._I~ ARBORETUM BUSINESS PARK
3m) ADDITION, STEINER DEVELOPMENT.
Bob Generous: Thank you Madam Mayor and Council members. Normally this item would just come
back for final plat approval. However, as part of the original subdivision the Wrase parcel was excluded
from the subdivision and now we're adding the southern 100 feet of that parcel to this plat and to make
sure that everything's copesetic we wanted council, city approval on that. It's a pretty straight forward
subdivision. We're creating two lots. The uses are spelled out in the design standards for Arboretum
Business Park. That won't change. A lot of the conditions are the same. Staff is recommending
approval of this subdivision subject to the conditions of the staff report. However, we are reflecting
modification of some of the conditions. On page 16, condition number 21. This condition can be
deleted. The buildings are on the city parcel. They not within this subdivision. Page 17. Condition 24.
Line two. It should be Project No. 97-1. Delete D. And on line three, at the end of the line delete Phase
IlL
Mayor Mancino: That's in parens? Oh! Feasibility study for Phase III?
Bob Generous: For Phase III, yes. Just delete the phrase Phase III because the feasibility study
/ncorporates .all t'he pu'b'f4c ;improvements .t~or the development and it's spelled out as part of that. Also
the applicant submitted a fax to the city today and I've provided you with a copy. Item number 27
39
City Council Meeting - February 8, t999
regarding the existing driveway serving the Wrase piece and the problem with this is the driveway's on
the 100 feet that the city's transferred to the developer. We put in the condition that this driveway should
remain in place until the existing homes on the city property are removed or demolished. However the
applicant has an easement agreement that says they can provide an alternative access to that. I provided
also a copy of that. That was dated June 29, 1998 and they recommend that we just go with that
language. A third option would be to put in, leave in the city's condition but come up with a date certain
that the city would have to remove or demolish the property. And I can show you the location of that.
It's highlighted in yellow. This is the existing driveway location. The new lot line would be to the north
of this. When they redo this site they're going to put a retaining wall approximately 14 feet at the highest
point that it's dropping down. So once they make this improvement, we wouldn't be able to bring the
houses out this way. We have yet to contact any moving companies to see if there's alternatives... The
applicant, the easement agreement is part of the permanent access to the north so that might be an
alternative .... or we could, in the future this site would... However, we need to bring this up as a
discussion item. It is a concern that the applicant has and one that the city has that we need to come to
some type of resolution on.
Mayor Mancino: And what's your suggestion?
Kate Aanenson: It's a significant issue. As you know we're trying to get those moved off the site. If
they're out there ahead of us, we could be locked and not get any houses off;
Bob Generous: I've had that, I talked to K~vik Trip people and they said if we can put in a date certain to
get it out, they could work with that and maybe that gives us impetus to move forward with either
demolishing it or finding someone to take it. We've had discussions with various people about taking
those sites but nothing's been concluded.
Councilman Senn: How long would it take to...Or to find out whether there's an interest or not an
interest.
Kate Aanenson: Well we have been working that angle since they looked at acquisition of the property.
We always knexv that when we acquired this that we were going to try to dispose of that. We have been
working on that trying to see if there's someone that would acquire this. Todd's been working on it.
We've had people look at it. We've presented options to you. There's alternative uses where we can use
those for city purposes. All of those have been dismissed. As you know we're going for the block grant
money. We're looking at again, seeing if we can relocate those. Can it happen in 6 months? It'd be
nice. I think that's very optimistic.
Councilman Senn: Has anybody evaluated the use of those structures?
Kate Aanenson: Todd can probably speak to that. The re-use of the structures or relocating them?
Councilman Senn: The use. Well both. I mean hand in hand. The relocation and re-use.
Todd Gerhardt: Well the newer of the two homes you would have to lose the garage part of the move.
it's built into the roof structure itself so that would have to be separated as a part of the move. It is in
good shape internally. The older home I do not know if it could survive or not. I would expect so but
I've not got a professional opinion on that. Inside the home is good shape. The foundation is it's original
foundation so .irt will pre~ab'ly continue to sit there 'for a while brrt it's ~n .old rock and concrete
foundation so I do not know if that would survive a move or not. It does need a new roof. I did not see
40
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
signs of leakage inside but from an outside view, the asphalt shingles have weathered pretty bad where
they're starting to fold up.
Mayor Mancino: Has Habitat actually seen the buildings? Habitat for Humanity?
Todd Gerhardt: No.
Kate Aanenson: No, but we've had other people look at that as far as ability to move them. You know
we looked at the original Wrase home as the interpretative center. But it's not in the capital improvement
plan as putting on the interpretative center on the site. But there's a cost attributed to that. The moving
cost and refurbishing so it's our understanding before the council didn't want to look at that. Then the
other building we looked at housing. Emergency services near the water tower. Using that building but
that.., want to go forward with that decision either. As Todd indicated that the newer home could be
moved and we're working on that and I think the other one probably will not be able to be moved. It may
be cost prohibitive. The moving and refurbishing so.
Councilman Senn: Todd, have we contacted any private parties about seeing to moving the house?
Todd Gerhardt: No.
Councilman Senn: That pretty much answers the economic question of whether it's possible or not,
doesn,t it?
Todd Gerhardt: Well I think we've been trying to schedule a meeting with the Habitat for Humanities
people. I think Julie Frick from the Carver County HRA was going to try to set us up with those people.
Staff hasn't followed up with her to see if she's been able to contact them. I think the key thing here is to
see if they're interested in it.
Kate Aanenson: Well the other component is we needed to have a lot to, and we've now completed that.
We've got some lots that we think we can move it onto. They would try to keep it in the community.
That xvas one of the goals so we've completed that.
Councilman Senn: How long before you know you have your CBDG funds to buy them though.
Kate ^anenson: Well they're allocated July 1st. Their hearing will be in March. But then it's still the
timeframe of the actual moving. Scheduling that.
Councilman Senn: What's the time frame for construction of the retaining wall and basically cutting off
the egress.9
Mayor Mancino: Why don't we wait until the applicant talks to that and then let's come back.
Councilman Senn: So you don't know that answer then?
Kate Aanenson: No.
Councilman Senn: Oh, okay.
41
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Would the applicant like to come in front of the city council. Maybe address this great
big number 27 and some other issues.
Fred Richter: I'm Fred Richter with Steiner Development. In addressing item 27. Just recall to the
council and the mayor. We, in purchasing the land, the south 100 feet of the Wrase with the staff and all,
we worked out a purchase agreement and then attachments, 'easement agreements to anticipate all the
aspects of how we move forward with the land. We have an agreement that we were satisfied with that
the city entered into that we would provide temporary access until we could give you permanent access to
the water tower. That was a concern. At no time were the houses an issue. Our position is we need to
move forward. Honor our purchase agreements. The purchaser Kwik Trip needs to build in a timely
fashion. And that timely fashion is basically rough grading in May and they'll start construction in June,
going into a 3 or 4 month construction period. One other thing. Moving the house, and I'm just kind of
ad libbing now but I do believe you will have access to TH 41. There might be a little grading or that but
you're not totally landlocked. The house will be able to be moved offthe property. And again I guess
our position, we entered into a contract with the city. We thought through with staff all conditions.
Obviously if we were going to be purchase additional land, we wanted to be able to augment it to our
property and turn it into a viable purchase agreement in a timely fashion. So this is kind of an added
issue that we think is basically the city's issue and really we shouldn't be brought into the fact the timing
of the house isn't really our matter.
Mayor Mancino: We're just needing some help with you.
Fred Richter: And I don't mean to say that bluntly but I'm trying to point out the logistics and I think at
the same time.
Mayor Mancino: You mean you are not going to help us as a community move and get more affordable
housing. Do Habitate for Humanity.
Fred Richter: We would have bought that po~ion of the property if we thought that was something we
should do. Right now, and maybe you don't recall. We bought the south 100 feet, which does not have
any of the structures on it.
Councilman Senn: But don~t you have an option on the rest?
Fred Richter: We have an option on it. But it's never been, you have to refresh me Bob. This is a right
of first refusal and I believe it's on the western portion.
Councilman Senn: So essentially we could just leave the structures there and leave them for whoever.
Kate Aanenson: What we're saying is it makes it very difficult if you're going to try to save the
structures.., grade changes taking them out.
Councilman Senn: Making a conscience decision at that point that you're going to demolish them.
Kate Aanenson: Basically. I think it's going to be tougher to get them out.
Fred Richter: That'may .-he'the-most .cost effective.
42
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Kate Aanenson: What I'm saying is it becomes prohibitive to get them off. More difficult. More costly
and the change of them taking.
Todd Gerhardt: The last alternative is to have the houses, I know an individual that will take the risk in
moving the houses for you know giving the home. Mr. Luna will take these and recycle these homes and
put them back to use. But I think our first priority was to try to reuse the homes for Habitat for Humanity
here in Chanhassen and...may take these homes and place them where he can find property to put them
Councilman Senn: Well the problem we have is timing though, correct?
Todd Gerhardt: Yep. And we need to.
Councilman Senn: If you have somebody who would at least reuse the structures and not waste them,
that may be a better thing than backing ourselves in a comer where you can't get out.
Mayor Mancino: Well I don't know. I think we have a little bit of time to explore the Habitat for
Humanity.
Todd Gerhardt: And I'd also ask that Anita and Charles probably go out and take a look at this site.
Take the plans out there and see if there is a way to move the home grade wise using our already access
out to TH 41. Didn't I hear that we will still have access?
Kate Aanenson: Yeah we will but there's an 8 foot drop in grade. Sharp drop in grade. Part of it's a
.retaining wall and the other part.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Senn: Well before Fred leaves, just a quick question. Fred, if we happen to pass on your
· site plan review for the Kwik Trip, what's your timing?
:Fred Richter: The timing, and I'll look at Mr. Teigen of Kwik Trip. Timing is to basically close
immediately after final plat. We have contract obligation to rough grade the site and then turn it over to
Kwik Trip with you know frost coming out of the ground, that type of thing. That will probably be
during the month of May. Allowing them to then start construction in June. At no time would the
~ading disrupt the house. It will be close to the house and the final grading over on TH 41 could be
later. So there's some flexibility and it's up to you how fast you go with the construction when the
retaining walls go.
Scott Teigen: Good evening. I'm Scott Teigen, Director of Real Estate Development for Kwik Trip.
We do have this on our June start schedule at this time. We're cooperative people and if it's a matter of a
few weeks. Now the other thing to remember if you've got, you've probably got some road bands that
probably kick in sometime when the frost goes out and until, so you've got that to deal with. And I
sympathize with you trying to sell houses to be moved because it is very difficult. Very difficult. I mean
we've done it in the last 10 years maybe a halfa dozen times and I think I got paid for one house.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, you usually don't get paid for them.
43
City ,Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Scott Teigen: Most of the time you give them away, that's right. If you can find somebody. But we'll be
cooperative. Like I told Bob out in the hall. If June 1st would be ideal, but if it's June 15t~' or the first of
July, we just need to know and then we can schedule accordingly. We're anxious to be in town and get
open and serve a need.
Mayor Mancino: I think it would be great if we could do a date certain. Here's when we'll have it
figured out. If we don't by then, we'll...
Councilman Senn: Well that's what I'm trying roger to, but if you have a June start, what are you
looking at.9 90? 1207 Before you get to fixture and inventory or what?
Scott Teigen: The problem is once you start grading.
Kate Aanenson: The grading issue.
Scott Teigen: It's before us starting because once you start grading here, the horse is out of the barn.
They got to be out of there before we start cutting.
Kate Aanenson: Here's the access to TH 41...
Fred Richter: That's a minor grade change. We could hold offon that..~
· Councilman 'Senn: That's what I was going to ask. I mean I'm assuming you could, you've got
· equipment out there all the time any~vay these days and probably through the summer, right?
Fred Richter: We could do a Kwik Trip...by rough grading this portion. And this could be the last
.part...
Scott Teigen: Then June 1st or June 15tI' is okay with us.
.Fred Richter: Because this grading's going to...
Councilman Senn: No, no, but what I'm saying is you're talking about a June start. When are you
talking about completing your construction? That's really the date.
Scott Teigen: 60 to 75 days. If we start the first of June, we'll be open middle of August.
Councilman Senn: Okay. So really back that off from there because you need a couple weeks of August
maybe to do that then so I mean basically we've got until about August 1. At the latest. Okay.
Fred Richter: Just do that final grading.
Councilman Senn: Okay, so effectively if we do this and say that if we don't have the house off of there
by August 1~t, it won't be going off effectively and then everything just stays as it is and we're assuming
there will be demolition. I mean essentially that's what it comes down to.
Kate Aanenson: We can see if we can get it offan 8 foot terrain. Right. That works a better date...
44
~CityCouncil Meeting - February 8, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Okay then, does the applicant have an~hing else they want to talk to city council about
on this?
Fred Richter: As far as platting, I think those are the...
Mayor Mancino: Any comments because I'm going to move that the City Council approve PUD 92-6
grading preliminary plat approval for Arboretum Business Park 3ra Addition creating two lots and right-
of-way for Highway 41 subject to the following conditions 1 through 29. 21 being deleted in it's
entirety. Condition 24 changes line 2. Project 97-1. The D is deleted. And on the third line to delete
Phase IIL And in condition 27, that the staffand the applicant work to come up with a date of August 1st
.thai the honses must be moved by.
'Councilman Senn: Or they remain.
Mayor Mancino: Or well, I mean or whatever. They're gone, yeah. They're razed, whatever. Is there a
second?
Councilwoman Jansen: I'll second it.
l~layor Mancino moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve PUD #92-6 granting
~reliminary plat approval for Arboretum Business Park 3ra Addition creating two lots and right-
,of-~vay.for TH 41 (plans prepared by Schoell & Madson, Inc.), subject to the following conditions:
Arboretum Business Park 3ra Addition will be responsible for a water quality fee of $22,146 and a
water quantity fee of $20,841. Additional credit will be given if the applicant installs the trunk
~storm sewer needed for this project. This will be determined once a plan is submitted. The
applicant may decide to use the remaining water quality credit towards this development, but once
,this credit is gone, future phases will be assessed the remaining SWMP fee owed ($473,620.).
2. The grading plan shall be revised to incorporate the following items:
Lot 1, Block 1, Arboretum Business Park 3rd Addition shall be revised to incorporate
proposed grades from the Kwik Trip site plan.
The location of septic sites or wells on the property.
Proposed and existing storm sewer.
d) Erosion control blankets on all slopes 3:1 or steeper.
e) A rock construction entrance.
3. MnDOT's review comments shall be incorporated into the final grading and development plan.
The developer shall be responsible for extending sanitary sewer service to the city's parcel which
lies directly north of Lot 1, Block 1 as a part of the overall site improvements. The city will
determine a connection charge based on the construction cost of extending the sewer service to
refund to the ~lexr61ol~erxtpon connection :of this parcel to the system.
45
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
o
10.
ll.
12.
13.
14.
t5.
16.
Sanitary sewer discharge from Lots 1 and 2, Block 1, Arboretum Business Park 3ra Addition will be
limited to 1,500 gallons per acre and water usage will be no more than 2,000 gallons per acre per
parcel.
All public utilities to be constructed shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the
City's Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. Detailed construction plans and specifications for
the developer-installed public utilities constructed by the developer will be required in conjunction
with final platting for Chanhassen and Chaska staff review and City Council approval.
The developer shall be required to enter into a PUD Agreement/Development Contract with the
city and provide a financial security in the form of a letter of credit or cash escrow to guarantee site
improvements.
The storm water ponds and/or temporary detention ponds shall be constructed in the initial grading
phase to minimize erosion off-site. Erosion control blankets will be required on all slopes greater
than 3:1. Revegetation of the exposed slopes shall occur immediately after grading is completed.
All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and
disc-mulched or wood fiber blanket or sod after completion of each activity in accordance with the
City,s Best Management Practice Handbook.
The applicant shall provide detailed storm sewer calculations for 10-year and 100-year storm
events in accordance with the City's Surface Water Management Plan for the City Engineer to
review and approve. Individual storm sewer calculations between each catch basin segment will
also be required to determine if sufficient catch basins are being utilized.
The applicant shall apply for an obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies, i.e.
Carver County, Watershed District, Metropolitan Waste Control Commission, Health Department,
Minnesota Pollution control agency, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, Army Corps of
Engineers and Minnesota Department of Transportation and comply with their conditions of
approval.
Fire hydrants shall be incorporated per the Fire Marshal's recommendations.
The appropriate drainage and utility easements shall be dedicated on the final plat for all utilities
and ponding areas lying outside the right-of-way. The easement width shall be a minimum of 20
feet wide depending on the depth of the utility.
No berming or landscaping will be allowed within the right-of-way except landscaping along the
frontage road in accordance with the Trunk Highway 5 corridor study.
The lowest floor or opening elevation of all buildings shall be a minimum of 2 feet above the 100
year high water level.
The applicant shall report to the City Engineer the location of any drain tiles found during
construction and shall relocate or abandon the drain tile as directed by the City Engineer.
Final grade's :ar~j~ae'em Xo Trunk Highway 41 will be subject.to review .and approval of MnDOT for
compatibility with the future widening of Trunk Highway 4 I.
46
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
2.5.
.26.
.27.
Landscaping along Highway 41 shall comply with Buffer Yard Standard C (as per city code).
.:Century Boulevard shall comply with Buffer Yard Standard B. The master landscape plan for the
Arboretum Business Park PUD shall be the design guide for all of the specific site landscape
developments. Each lot must present a landscape plan for approval with the site plan review
process.
A 10' clear space must be maintained around fire hydrants, i.e. street lamps, trees, shrubs, bushes,
NSP, US West, Cable TV and transformer boxes. This is to ensure that fire hydrants can be
quickly located and safely operated by firefighters. Pursuant to Chanhassen City Ordinance 9-1.
Submit street names to Chanhassen Fire Marshal and Chanhassen Building Official for review and
approval.
The project and individual site users must comply with the development design standards
incorporated here in as Exhibit C of the development contract.
Full trail fees shall be collected per city ordinance for all lots in the Arboretum Business Park 3rd
Addition.
The developer agrees to waive any and all procedural or substantive objections to the special
~ssessments resulting from Project No. 97-1 improvements including, but not limited to hearing
requirements and that the assessments as outlined in the feasibility study for improvements of
Sroject 97-1 (Coulter Boulevard Phase III) exceeds the benefit to the property platted as Arboretum
..'Business Park. The assessment interest rate will be bond sale rate plus 1 ½%, then rounded up to
Ihe nearest ½%. The assessment payback is not known yet but will be a minimum of 5 years.
The existing cross access easement over Lot 1, Block 1, Arboretum Business Park 3rd Addition, for
access to the City's parcel shall be amended to reflect the new alignment proposed on the Kwik
Trip site plan. The easement width shall be 40 feet.
All driveway access points shall be constructed in accordance with the city's industrial driveway
detail plate No. 5207.
The existing driveway located through the northerly portion of Lot 1, Block 1 shall remain until the
existing homes on the city property have been removed from the site or demolished and the
permanent access constructed to the water tower site on Outlot A, Arboretum Business Park 2nd
Addition. Staff and the applicant will work to come up with a date of August 1, 1999 as the date
the houses must be moved.
A storm sewer system shall be designed and constructed to accommodate stormwater runoff from
Lots 1 and 2, Block I and the future development of the city's parcel lying north of Lot 1, Block 1.
Detailed drainage calculations for pre and post development conditions will be required for review
and approval by the city engineer. Verification that the existing storm sewer system, if utilized,
can accommodate the additional runoff generated from the development to these sites shall be
provided to the city engineer for review and approval.
47
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
28.
Revise plans to show proposed 8 foot wide bituminous trail sidewalk along the north side of 82nd
Street West. The applicant shall be responsible for construction of the trail after utility
improvements are installed.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
'SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A CONVENIENT STORE AND GAS PUMPS; LOT 1, BLOCK 1~
ARBORETUM BUSINESS PARK 3a° ADDITION; LOCATED NORTH OF WEST 82ND STREET
AND EAST OF TH 41~ KWIK TRIP~ INC. SCOTT TEIGEN.
Bob Generous: Thank you Madam Mayor, Council members. This is a 5,737 square foot building. A
convenient store with gas pumps in front and a car wash on the back. In reviewing with the Planning
Commission, there were only two issues that came out. The architecture of the building. They wanted to
have additional elements incorporated into the building facade. The applicant has revised the west
elevation to provide some, a recess in the building elevations so that there is some change. And on the
front, the south elevation they have provided columns to help differentiate the building entrance and that
was one of the recommendations that staff had made before. The use of this site for, as convenient store
with gas pumps was approved as part of the design standards for the PUD. The development is
consistent with that. Staff, it is a brick building so it will be a high quality. We do have samples of the
brick. They're two tone. One's a tan and the other's more reddish. The other issue was the lighting that
we were concerned on. I went down to the Burnsville site and the intensity of the lighting wasn't very
.bad and there wasn't a lot of spillover. My only concern was the glare that you had when looking at the
site from offsite so we're recommending that they provide a structure around the lighting fixtures to
screen it from direct outside view. Or to recess it into the canopy. The applicant has agreed to do one or
the other of those. With that we are recommending approval of the site plan subject to the conditions of
the staff report.
Mayor Mancino: Any questions of staff7. Is the applicant here and would you like to present m~ything?
'Scott Teigen: Madam Mayor, members of the Council. Again I'm Scott Teigen, Director of Real Estate
for the Kwik Trip stores. This would be kind of fitting tonight but I would like to compliment your
engineering staff and your planning staff. They have, I mean they've treated us like real people that we
don't get treated all the time and we appreciate it. They're tough but they're fair. And I think the staff
report's very explanatory. If there's any questions, I'll be here to answer them.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions at this point? I just want to make sure that signage will be
coming in. There's no monument sign or anything?
Bob Generous: Well they do have a monument sign that's located...
Mayor Mancino: And we're approving that too?
Bob Generous: Well not the size of it. They have to comply with the ordinance. It's 2 feet too tall.
Kate Aanenson: But it approximately will look like this.
Conncilman Senn: How tall is that guy?
Bob Generous: Their signage will comply with the design standards.
48
City.Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Mayor Mancino: Okay, and the signage will comply with the sign ordinance? The 8 feet in height?
Kate Aanenson: Yes°
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you.
Councilman Labatt: This lighting will adhere to the new...?
Kate Aanenson: Pardon me?
Bob Generous: Yes, the canopy's only 18 feet high.
Mayor Mancino: Councilwoman Jansen, any questions?
Councilwoman Jansen: No questions.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Labatt?
Mayor Mancino: I'd like to move that the city council approve Site Plan 99-1 for a 5,737 square foot
Kwik Trip convenient store and gas station with a drive through car wash on a 1.88 acre site located on
!Lot 1, Block 1, Arboretum Business Park 3~a Addition, plans prepared by Insites, dated 12/18/98 subject
lo the following conditions. All the conditions 1 through 29.
'.Councilman Senn: Second.
Mayor Mancino moved, Councilman Senn seconded that the City Council approve Site Plan #99-1
for a 5,737 square foot Kwik Trip convenience store and gas station with a drive throngh car wash
on a 1.88 acre site located on Lot 1, Block 1, Arboretum Business Park 3rd Addition, plans
prepared by Insites, dated 12/18/98, subject to the following conditions:
1. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the city and provide the necessary security
to guarantee erosion control, site restoration and landscaping.
2. The development must comply with the Development Design Standards for Arboretum Business
Partc
3. Add one deciduous, overstory tree to landscape plan and plant schedule. Submit revised plan to city
prior to issuance of the building permit.
Plant materials used along Highway 41 must be salt tolerant. Replace red and sugar maples and
crabapples with other salt tolerant cultivars or species. Submit revised plan to city prior to issuance
of the building permit.
The developer shall incorporate the following architectural revisions: I) the entrance be projected
out from the building to create additional variation or, alternately, that a vestibule be created at the
entrance or brick columns be incorporated at the south end of the roof canopy over the entrance, 2)
/.he car wash-eqff~pment .room be recessed 12 inches or more from the elewations of t_he car wash and
station store to provide variation on the western elevation.
49
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
6. Meet with the Inspections Division plan reviewer as soon as possible after approval to begin the
building code plan review process.
The applicant needs to reduce the southern gas canopy lighting to meet the ½ foot candle lighting
standard at the south property line. A decorative, shoe box fixture (high pressure sodium vapor lamps)
with a square ornamental pole shall be used for area li/~hting. All light fixtures shall be shielded.
Lighting shall be shielded from direct off-site view and glare. The wattage in the canopy lighting be
reduced to reduce the footcandle of lighting proposed under the canopy.
All freestanding signs be limited to one monument sign per street frontage. Signs must be a minimum
of 10 feet from the property line and must be located outside drainage and utility easements. The sign
shall not exceed eighty (80) square feet in sign display area nor be greater than eight (8) feet in height.
The sign treatment is an element of the architecture and thus should reflect the quality of the
development° The signs should be consistent in color, size, and material throughout the development.
Wall sign shall be permitted per city ordinance for industrial office park site. All signs shall require a
separate sign permit. Wall signage is permitted on the south and west building elevations only. Signage
is not permitted on the gas canopy.
104 A fire hydrant must be added at the entrance on the northeast comer off of Highway 41. Minnesota
Uniform Fire Code Section 903.4.2°
11. The water line running into the building must be increased to a minimum size of 4" due to a sprinkler
system which must be installed within the building. Chanhassen Fire Department/Fire Prevention
Policy # 34-1993 and Policy # 36-1994. Note: Also Building and Sprinkler in accordance with
Minnesota State Building Code Special Fire Protection System Section.
,12. All grading and utility work within Trunk Highway 41 right-of-way will require a permit from
MnDOT.
13. Construction of the drive aisles north of the property and the retaining wall ~vill require a temporary
easement from the city.
I4. The existing driveway located through the northerly portion of the site must remain until the existing
homes on the city's property have been removed from the site or demolished and the permanent
access constructed to the water tower on Outlot A, Arboretum Business Park 2nd Addition.
15. All septic sites, if located on the site, will need to be abandoned in accordance with city codes.
Pernfits must be obtained through the Building Department.
16. Relocate fire hydrant on 82na Street West to east curb, Minnesota Uniform Fire Code Section
903.4.2, of the proposed driveway entrance. In addition, add a gate valve and coordinate temporary
water shut-off through the City of Chaska.
17. The proposed storm sewer system will need to be designed and constructed to accommodate runoff
from Lots 1 and 2 and the future development of the city's parcel lying north of the Kwik Trip site.
'Deta~ed drainage.calcUlations for pre and post developmentconditions will be required for review
and approval by the City Engineer. Verification that the existing storm sewer system, if utilized, can
50
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
accommodate the additional runoff generated from the development of these three sites will also
need to be supplied to the City Engineer for review and approval.
18. Relocate storm sewer outside of Trunk Highway 41 right-of-way. Add a catch basin manhole in the
drive aisle north of the site along the east curb line.
19. The applicant shall install a fence a minimum of 4 feet high along the north property line wherever
the retaining wall exceeds 3 feet in height.
20. Install industrial driveway apron per city of Chanhassen Detail Plate 5207 at the driveway access
along 82~ Street West.
21. Increase right-in/right-out drive aisle lane widths to 18 feet face to face. Increase intersection radii to
30 feet at all intersection radii and driveway curves to accommodate truck turning traffic.
22. The applicant shall work with the city in revising the joint cross-access easement through the site.
The minimum easement width shall be 40 feet wide and the drive aisles 26 feet wide face to face of
curb.
23. Add painted medians to separate/delineate car wash from drive through around the east and north
side of the building.
24. Revise plans to show proposed 8-foot wide bituminous trail/sidewalk along north side of 82nd Street
West. Add pedestrian ramps to all curb returns. Relocate proposed 5-foot wide sidewalk to adjacent
back of curb in the southeast comer of the site up to future access to Lot 2.
25. All public utility improvements will require dedicated drainage and utility easements on the final
plat. The minimum width shall be 20 feet wide depending on depth of the utility.
26. The applicant shall prepare a cross-access easement to allow Lot 2, Block 1, Arboretum Business
Park 3rd Addition to utilize access through the site.
27. The deceleration and acceleration lane proposed along Trunk Highway 41 shall be installed in
conjunction with the right-in/right-out by the applicant.
28. Traffic control signage shall be included on the site plan for staff review and approval prior to
issuance of a building permit."
AH voted in favor and the motion carried.
INFORMATION SERVICES DEPARTMENT: PRESENTATION OF Y2K ISSUES AND
REQUEST FOR AN AMENDMENT TO THE INFORMATION SERVICES (IS) BUDGET.
Councilwoman Jansen: And here you thought you were going to have to give this presentation in front of
a room full.
Richard Rice: Madam Mayor, City Council. I know that you've sat through a couple of my
presentations regar/Iing .the yoar 2000. I did prepare this expecting to have a few more people as far as
residents here so some of the first slides are pretty much, may be review for most of you but for the
51
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
benefit of my crowd here, I'm going to go through these. And...wait for this to reboot. My name again
is Richard Rice. I'm the IS Coordinator here for the City. Fve been here for approximately, almost two
years now. I came in August of '96. Took over the role of Y2K Coordinator because most of the needs
at the time were directed more towards computers and...equipment. Although we all know it's not just a
computer related problem. I'd also like to make mention this is the first full council meeting I've sat
through, which has been quite enlightening.
Councilman Senn: Feel free to come every week.
Richard Rice: I hope to give as few reasons as possible to have me come before you but you will be, I
will probably have to give future updates as we go along. It will probably be a pretty regular thing to
have at least a short portion of some council meetings just for Y2K status updates. Once again I
apologize for this delay here.
Mayor Mancino: ...
Richard Rice: As long as you mention that too. That was an issue that I directed towards the county.
Carver County is going to be hosting a county wide meetings for cities and also utilities and other
agencies that are involved with that and we're kind of working with the county towards preparing some
sort of public address, public statement. They are just forming the meetings now. Their first meeting
should be scheduled towards the end of this month or the first part of March. I'm working in conjunction
with pretty much all the cities. They've asked the cities to provide their Y2K assessment data. They'll
be compiling it and making recommendations to other cities like for instance if I've found some things
that other cities haven't looked at or vice versa, they'll be making recommendations to all the agencies as
a whole. We have the opportunity, myself and the Mayor attended a conference that was held in
Hennepin County. Was sponsored by the county at their public works facility. They had asked, or
basically invited all city agencies, government agencies to be present and basically hear the reports from
public utilities. What the county was doing. Some of the cities that were involved. Actually the City of
Plymouth sponsored it. I'll touch on some of that once I get these slides up. NSP was there. US West
was there. And the other utility company that we were concerned about was Minnegasco. And i'll get to
those reports in the slides. We were basically waiting to hear their official statement before we made any
recommendations to the council for any major purchases of equipment. Their news is good but it
doesn't eliminate the need to have contingency plans in the event there isn't power or there isn't gas
services.
Todd Gerhardt: I'll include Minutes of that meeting in your next administrative section. I received those
in the mail today. Somebody took minutes at that meeting.
Richard Rice: Yeah, I was waiting to get a copy of that. Anyone that attended should have actually got a
copy of that.
Councilman Senn: Well while we're waiting Rick for that to come up. Can we skip past Y2K for a
second and deal with a few budget issues and get b done? Basically as I understand b, this is your
proposal on how to spend the $200,000.00. You're going essentially $16,000.00 more over primarily
related to software needs?
Richard Rice: That's correct.
Councilman Senn: And the $200,000.00 does include the Y2K program that we passed in the budget?
52
City.Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Richard Rice: Aside from salaries, that's the largest portion of it. It represents about $72,000.00. That
includes a $25,000.00 contingency fund and that's something I asked to be set aside because we do have
areas that we know will have some additional spending.
Councilman Senn: So the 16 grand extra you're asking you may or may not need depending on that
contingency but right now to be safe you'd like us to allocate a budget amendment of $16,000.007
Richard Rice: That's correct. What I wanted to do is leave that $72,000.00 intact for Y2K spending.
Then I looked at what services were required, both software and hardware. What you should have in
your packet is an outline, it's basically the originally '99 IS budget. I added one extra column there so
you could see what items I actually removed from the budget. What I left in and there were actually two
new items. Both being software maintenance contracts. The finance director would like, our goal is to
get all the IS, all the software maintenance contract underneath the IS budget. I deal with all those
vendors as it is anyway. So those two items that were there, Permit Works and the other item I believe
was the, it dealt with the well and lift station telemetry systems. That software maintenance also got
added. That was currently funded out of the other water and sewer budget. And permits is out of the
building department budget.
Councilman Senn: In terms of your capital outlay numbers, do you get, where do you take those numbers
from? Out of a state contract for purchasing or what?
Richard Rice: Regarding which items?
Councilman Senn: Just in terms of your capital outlay items. Your equipment. Your equipment items.
Richard Rice: The only capital outlay I have in that budget is one printer and that's off ora government
buying project through GE Capital. It used to be Ameridata. All other capital equipment and for
softxvare/hardware was basically removed from this budget and that would be subject to a citizens study
group that was reconmnended by the Council. So that's where you see all the items that were removed.
There are items there that I do intend, I'm requesting that the citizen study group will look at those items.
They are things that I do believe we should consider re-including them in this year's budget.
Councilman Senn: Alright, in terms of the, I don't know maybe separating and dealing first with just the
issue of the budget amendment just to kind of keep this simple and keep them separated. Todd, the
$16,000.00 for this is, you're suggesting coming from where?
Todd Gerhardt: Out of the reserve.
Mayor Mancino:...
Todd Gerhardt: Well we could take it out of capital or we could take it out of your, the council
contingency fund. Either of the two. Capital account or the council's $700,000.00 reserve.
Councilwoman Jansen: If I might maybe speak to that. That was maybe part of my message that wasn't
quite clear from earlier today. In our conversation with Para at the last work session, as we challenged
her patience one more time to go back and possibly move dollars from out of the general fund expenses
over into the oth~r~a~eounts. I'm recalling that in one of our meetings she had said ~hat.she,had ~hifted, 'I
want to say it was like $60,000.00 from IS back into the general fund and it was more of a
53
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
miscommunication. We weren't saying you know move it into general fund so it bleeped up in general
fund and I'm assuming when she comes back to us with the challenge of moving whatever she can out
into other funds, that that might be one of the shifts.
Todd Gerhardt: Well from what she told me today, $150,000.00 of the IS budget is coming from general
fund and $50,000.00 is coming from capital. So if I hear you correctly, you'd like to move $150,000.00
oflS budget out of general fund and move that into capital?:
Councilwoman Jansen: And I didn't have a specific number in mind. That was more the question that
had gone to her at the work session is what else is there that's a one time purchase and it seemed like it
was dollars from within this department that might in fact be one time that could go under capital and
that now we're looking for $16,000.00 more, if it can go under the capital as well versus into general
fund. If we're trying to not bump that general fund number up.
Todd Gerhardt: Well just as long as you understand. I think we need $300,000.00 is what we've got to
move and of that $150,000.00 for IS, that is general fund expenditures, most of that is Rick and Jolene's
salaries. So we were trying to find one time expenditures but we're just, we're not going to be able to
find that. I think we are going to have to move some salaries to solve that issue. So the $150,000.00
could come out oflS and we'd still have to find another $150 someplace else. Just as long as you
understand. Rick's $215,000.00 under his amended 1999 budget. Included in there is personal services
and then each of the activities in his detailed budget attached show how much of that is personal services.
Councilman Senn: So again the overall increase over and above what we approved is the $16,000.007
Todd Gerhardt: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: ...
Counc ihnan Senn: That's not what I'm hearing.
Todd Gerhardt: Well that is what I'm saying... I would really like to give, to keep the $150,000.00.
Mayor Mancino:...
Todd Gerhardt: Right, and we're talking about Rick but any personal salaries that we continue to fund
through general fund and capital projects, we like to keep capital projects as a one time purchase or even
just to fund Y2K because hopefully we won't have as many problems in Y2K next year that, some that
come up but like we have a budget of $71,000.00 for Y2K. Maybe some of that could be moved over
there.
Mayor Mancino: To capital improvement?
Todd Gerhardt: Right. That can be identified as one time purchase. But remember we do have.
Mayor Mancino: I hope we don~t do Y2K every year°
Councilman Senn: But we really need the, how would I say, we really need Pam's feedback on the
overall issue at -this point Which we haven't got yet.
54
;City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Todd Gerhardt: Right. I've had discussions with her today and she is going to write you a memo saying
.you know we can move some salaries is the only thing that we can find over there. We'll never find
$300,000.00 worth of expenses.
Councilwoman Jansen: And it was more you know how much. If there is more, you know how much is
it? Ideally, sure we'd like to get it.
Mayor Mancino:...
Todd Gerhardt: Well, that's what I've got to sit down with Rick and see. Of the $216,000.00, how
much of that is capital. A lot of it, you've got about $12,000.00 to $15,000.00. That's the support
software packages. I would believe somewhere around $90,000.00 has got to be for personal services.
So you know, Rick and I will sit down and try to figure out which of the $216,000.00 is capital
expenditures. Remember, of the $200,000.00, $50,000.00 of that was already coming out of capital. So
you take out Rick's salary's in there of i00. There might be about $70-50,000.00, somewhere in there of
capital.
Councilman Senn: Which just sounds like we can't resolve that issue tonight.
Todd Gerhardt: No.
· Councilman Senn: So why don't we just take an action okaying the $216,000.00. Before you spend the
· money let's get the (a), allocation back from even Pam that we asked for so we can make the
determinations on what's going to go into which fund...to essentially fund it.
Mayor Mancino:...
Todd Gefl~ardt: Yeah, we've got to pay those. We're late on those so.
-Councilman Senn: No, that's fine. I'll move approval of the $16,000.00 budget amendment to do that on
the basis that Todd and Pam still come back to us with the allocations set for approval basically on the
overall budget between general fund and special funds so the council can act on that.
Councilwoman Jansen: I'll second.
Resolution #99-09: Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded approval of the
$16,000.00 budget amendment on the basis that Todd and Para come back with the allocations set
for approval basically on the overall budget between general fund and special funds so the council
can act on that. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Todd Gerhardt: I'll have that on for next council meeting.
Richard Rice: I spent this whole day sitting here.
Councilman Senn: I'm on a roll so should we just take another item and maybe the time we're done you
don'I need to do it?
Richard Rice: I~ ~toes~Xake:a while to-switch.
55
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Todd Gerhardt: I saw bits of it. It looked good.
Richard Rice: You do have this on the monitors then?
Todd Gerhardt: Nann~s got to hit the, yep.
Mayor Mancino: You know what? This will be your testing because we should do this again...
Richard Rice: These slides are ones that I'll be continually updating because I've already been asked to
give presentations to other, Southwest Metro, I can't remember what° They had called and asked today
too if I'd be willing to sit on a Board and possibly give some presentations so I'm kind of editing these
slides as we go. I think I'll dispense of this one. I think I've introduced myself. For the benefit, I think
everyone here, is anyone here not familiar what the problem is? Can I skip through that slide?... I
actually put these slides together expecting to have again a crowd of people here that may not have any
information about what this problem is. I know I've addressed the council with that so they're probably
aware of that. Is there any questions from the council to just what we're actually dealing with? How
about from any of, then I'm going to zip through some of these slides. Some of the concerns that we had
come up just from the top of our head. Obviously near and dear to me are computer networks and all the
related office equipment. Software programs. Our financial, especially our GIS. Office automation.
Things that we use on our desktop. The major concerns, and ones that will affect, have the largest affect
on citizens here is public utilities. Our well lift stations. Those are just again a few of them. And then
our facilities systems and the five facilities that we have. Actually four facilities we have. Fire
protection, sprinkler systems, heating and air conditioning. These are just some of the major ones that
we touched on. And what we're doing here within the city, can you, Nann can you zap to that? I just
-0rant to make reference to that real quick. We've adopted the League of Minnesota Cities guidelines.
it's abook that, or manual that we worked in conjunction with them, rather I was involved with the initial
assessment. They had called a number of cities to participate seeing what we were doing...utilities and
also interfacing with some of the outside utilities such as power and gas. Public safety issues are being
,ddressed by Bob Zydowskyo And our emergency management and dealing with the county and how we
prepare like for instance fire service that evening is being handled by Greg Hayes who's now our acting
Emergency Services Director. A couple other members here. We have Jerry Mullin who's going to be
helping with the testing and the conversion. I ran out of room on these slides. I didn't want to kind of
double them up. And I do have a number of finance people who are going to be involved... This is
where we're at so far. Our inventory is, I'm saying is 100% complete but I'll make this disclaimer that as
we go through there, we're still finding little pieces of equipment that I didn't even know existed and
getting those in the data base. All the major systems that we've looked at now, they're all done. I've got
all the inventory done. The assessments of those systems, we're almost there. We just got the last report
from the consulting firm that did our wells and lift stations so those controls have to be assessed to find
oat which ones will need to be replaced, if any. One note there too is that we do have a lot of equipment
in the lift stations and the well systems that may not have Y2K issues but the manufacturer's gone out of
business. So we'd have to address those issues anyway. One good thing out of this whole Y2K process
is we're actually getting an active inventory of all the equipment we have in the city. Up to this I had a
pretty good idea where all the computers and office equipment was but there's quite a bit more
equipment that seems like's coming out of the woodwork. Testing has not started yet. Rather, Fm going
Io skip one. The remediation. I started with doing just the desktop machines. Starting to make the
clients that are used here in city hall and the other facilities, sort of doing the updates for the client so I'm
just basically getting started with that. Testing won't actually begin until, well actually now with the
budget appr~ t tm~'~cheduled -a vendor in the February 15th~ It' S a city holiday and it -works .out weli
for me. That way I can take the city's network down. We can get all our network servers updated. We
56
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
do some minor testing that day but that's just for the se,wers themselves. The software that runs on them
will have to be tested at a later date. That's actually scheduled for July 4~ weekend and I already have
one finance person. I have one building inspector who will basically be working that weekend, shutting
,down the network servers. Setting the clock like 10 minutes before the hour and then we'll test them and
every application has to be tested. Contingency plans. We figure we probably have five major plans.
.I've got one written up so far and that is in the event of a power loss I'd be able to operate city offices out
.of the fire station, which means moving computers out of our, basically some of our network servers over
to the fire station. It may be a bit crowded. We're going to be testing that as well because the emergency
planning center will also be there. But there's been a lot of overlap. There's going to be city employees
that are actually acting in both capacities. First inventory phase. We started actually last year. Key one
actually was the finance software, Fundworks application for doing the utility billing, accounts payable.
Basically the whole package was not compliant and that's one that was basically determined where the
direction we were going with that. I started the inventory. I did it by basically, I started with buildings
first and then individual departments within the building. Doing the inventory. And along with that
there's some questions as far as contacting vendors actually falls under assessment but basically I started
gathering all the data. We have to have a hard copy of every device. It's status and it has to be on file
here just so we can prove our due diligence in the event something does fail. This inventory, I finished in
December. Again I make that disclaimer that I've got everything I expected to get but I'm still running
into things that I didn't know we even had. I've got three three ring notebooks right now filled with just
that data. Storing it in a file maker pro database. I have to convert that to access to be able to send to the
.county but the county's going to get that database probably by the end of the week~ And again just make
that comment that there's still ongoing, I'm still finding items that... And then as far as assessment goes,
once we have the inventory, we have to assess what risks those items have, and there's four basic
.categories. Catastrophic, of which I haven't found any within the city yet. Would be those items that
would be, that would actually directly endanger public health or life safety and some of those issues
might be 'like 911 dispatching service. You know we are going to be working with the county along
those lines but as a city service we basically don't own that. It doesn't mean we can't not deal with it.
It's just that it's not a direct city function that we'll deal with. We will be working with the county with
~that. We have, whoops. I wanted to go back. We have a number of items that would be classified as
severe and that would be things like traffic controls. That would not immediately endanger~ it wouldn't
be an immediate danger but if we left it go, it could very well be. Sustainable are things that we could
actually live with or we've got work around or we can live with it until we can actually find the funding
or actually get time to replace the item. And then those things that are inconvenient are, I've got some
PC's that, they're older machines. They're around. They get used but you know they're older 486's and
they don't get a lot of use. It's just inconvenient if they weren't there but there's a number of those sorts
of things. And then again just basically what we covered today. Identify those things and secure the
funding to repair or replace them. I expect to finish this assessment by March 15a~ and what's kind of the
last items are the wells and lift stations. That's going to take some time. I don't have the expertise in
that area and that's actually something that I'm leaving to Charles and Jerry in the water department. So
the major areas of assessment, computer equipment, network. You can read them there. I've got some
detail on that. As far as computer equipment. We've kind of standard in Compaq for all of our desktops.
That's something that actually started prior to me coming on board. Some strategy I do agree with
because I know Compaq is going to be around for a while. We have a number of boxes in storage right
now from companies that have gone out of business. The Compaq PC's. The IBM notebooks and the
Toshiba notebooks that we're currently having use, will be compliant with minor changes and that
usually means a software update. Something that the vendor provides free of charge. You download it
and you install it and you're compliant. The TI notebooks that there are three, and one of which Mark
has, lhey.are not.oomp'l.iat~t-~nd lcannot make them compliant. 'l~hat item is one ofthose~t'hings~that I
wanted the citizen study group to look at. It may be something that I guess the question was if, do we
57
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
make, if I'm getting notebooks, do I get notebooks for all the council members? I wanted them to look at
that. And then we have several older PC's and then those are the things that are mostly inconvenient.
We're going to retire most of them. They're 486, slower, older machines. Network hardware. Our
routers. We have four connecting the buildings. Actually three and then one spare. They are not
compliant now. They will need memory and they will a firmer upgrade. That is on the Y2K budget and
that is something that I would like to go ahead with fairly quick. Our servers again are along the lines,
the same lines as our desktop machines. They're compliant. They just need some patches. We'll get the
hardware up to date. I'm planning on doing that on February 15th. And then we do have one, it's the
manufacturer's called Sovran. They no longer make those servers. That's one that will be retired and be
replaced by another Compaq server that we already have. It was the one that used to the main City Hall
server. That will take over the function of being a back-up server and also it will store our GIS database
files. Again, touching only the items that I found that are non-compliant that have issues that I need to
deal with. There's actually a ton more that I didn't want to try to give you all the details. I wouldn't fit
in on here for one. Then moving onto the software that actually resides on the computers that staff uses.
We're all running Windows 95. There's some minor issues with that. Same with Office 95 and then
various versions of Word and Excel. All of those things I can make compliant with applying patches.
That's just going to take time. Art View and Scada. Art View is the actual application that department
heads use. Our Gl specialist creates these maps. She makes the data sets available and then the
department heads are those folks that are using Art View here in the city have the ability to bring that
data in and manipulate it to whatever they need to do for that project. Two versions and then I have three
different versions of that. One version can be updated and then the other that we have in place needs to
be completely replaced. This Scada software here is actually the telemetry system that monitors the
wells and lift stations. That represents about $3,500.00. It needs a new dialing program and it needs,
lhere's about four different functions within that, the major function is a dialing program that actually
connects all the systems together and it collects all the data. That's the largest chunk of that that needs to
be replaced. Network. We currently have a mixed environment. We have Novell Network 4.1 and
Microsoft NT 4.0. Same sort of thing. The vendors have provided patches. That is something that will
happen on February 15t~ when we shut down the network. The Fundworks I've already mentioned.
'That's being, it's not compliant. I think tnaybe the council was involved with a decisior~ on which
vendor to go to, but we're in the process of replacing it with a package from CNS called Paste and there's
two parts to it. Paste and Progress. That will happen, we're down to the last module. The utility billing
module will be the last one to be installed and that should happen starting March and we hope to have
that finished probably by, we've had some bugs in some of the other packages installed but it's hard to
guesstimate but we expect to have that done by June 1st. And then Permit Works. Another one that the
building department uses that, for basically handling all our building permits. It's got some issues with
reporting right now. The manufacturer's making the update available. It should be available by the first
quarter of this year. It's not something that's going to cost us. It's part of our software and maintenance
agreement. Facility systems, or facilities. All the systems we've tested now for facilities, and fortunate
for us we have a lot of older systems. There isn't any real new digital controls. We haven't found
anything in any of our facilities that would be affected. Our elevator does have the capability of having a
maintenance code but they were never implemented. And the elevator company actually chose not to
implement then until after this conversion. Our telephone system. We are operating off an Intertel
switch. It's currently at capacity. We can't have any more additional cards without a major update but it
is compliant with the exception of the programming software. That software is available now. The only
thing I'll need, that the city will need to fund is the installation fees by Cady Communications. And they
will be fairly minor. It's 2 hours of labor. I've already scheduled that for the 15th. And that's the
software that you would, for instance if you change, maybe move someone from a different office, to
assign them another~extension, you'd need that.different software. Our voicemail system is,not
compliant. It's hardware is not compliant. The software is not compliant. We have found that we can
58
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
re-use our, there's cards that attach to phone lines. We can re-use those cards in the new machine. That
.costs. By the way, it's listed in the Y2K budget as an expense of $14,000.00. And then some of the
public utilities and services that we've looked at and inventory obviously, I've mentioned quite a few of
them already. Water and sewer, traffic control, and fire department. We have detail in all the. The one
we're currently spending a good deal of time with is a water and sewer system. A couple notes here I
wanted everyone to understand too. The wells and lift stations. We're talking about the controls
themselves are, give us the ability to monitor the pumps and lift stations remotely from public works
building. But they can all be operated manually. That's the way we used to do it before we had the
system. We just finished the assessment or the inventory by a consultant, that's First Technologies.
They're the ones that are responsible for maintenance of this system at this time. We're currently
evaluating what, again I mentioned that we have some items that we can't even determine whether we've
got a Y2K issue with it because the company no longer exists. So that you could consider, and again we
have to assess that. It could be a Y2K issue. Or it may be something we'd have to deal with anyway.
The county, we're again working with the county to develop plans. They're interested in knowing our
water structure, both for fire fighting. If we had a Haz Mat incident, they want to know that. We'd be
able to supply water so we are working with them at all, we will be working with them in February then
to develop those plans. And that will take a good deal of time. Our traffic control systems. We
evaluated those in the Fall of '98. All of our city owned traffic controls are compliant. All the ones on
78a' have no issues. The vendor had one problem with one of it's programming. Actually that's not even
true. The traffic controls were the opticom system that's controlled by the police and fire vehicles. The
.opticom controls were compliant but the software to go in and you could actually generate a report of
how many times they were activated. By which vehicle or at what time of the day. That software wasn't
compliant and that has been purchased and it's awaiting installation. We do have some county signals
· that we discovered just recently down on the Y. We have one here that possibly the county, we may have
· to look into again. We're looking to the county for their own assessment data of those systems but there
are still some things that we need to look at because it may be something that we actually, we may need
to maintain. There's a couple questions I have with that that I don't have answered yet. And again I
keep hitting on this county wide. The county is actually kind of spear heading the contingency plans and
that's where we'll be developing a lot of it because of it interacts with what the county is doing. I put
this bullet in here because there was some issues with fire vehicles. There was initial reports that some
fire vehicles would fail because they had maintenance controls or maintenance chips in their engines and
the pumps. We did just recently get a report, I did get all of the inventory back from the manufacturers of
our current fire vehicles and we have no issues with ours. And then shortly after that there was another
article stating that that was more of a bogus message but in any case we did check the vehicles that we
own and there are no concerns. We do have our newest pumper has a computer that controls the pump
pressure but it has no date codes. And then I did an assessment of all the specialized equipment. Our
heart defibrillators. We have some air monitoring equipment. All of those devices are compliant. And
of all the office equipment we have here, the only one I found so far of all the assessments I've done is
one fax machine that will actually process the date okay but won't display it right. So you'll see a 00. It
just doesn't have enough digits. All of our copying machines. Fax machines other than these are
compliant. Again I expect if I find other things I'll be updating these slides and you might see these
again. In the last contingency planning, the only plans I've developed so far has been the one to operate
City Hall and the emergency disaster center out of the fire station. We know we have at least four major
plans yet to write and that centers around delivering water, determining what our power situation will be.
Those are plans that will be drawn up by Charles Folch. The areas that I don't have the expertise in, I
have basically left those to the people in those positions. One other bullet in the bottom here. Depending
upon, I left that in there. We do have a Y2K contingency fund. If that bottom bullet is something we end
up havingto rlo, .-t'h~:aeq~tisttio~ o£~a-nother mobile generator, that would be somethin'g I'd have to-come {o
the council again for. I've got some slides regarding NSP that I'd like to hold those questions offuntil
59
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
then. And we will be involved with quite a few different contracting firms and outside agencies to
develop those plans. There is some of the areas, the major areas that we need to develop plans for yet
and again all these plans, every one of them will interact with another° External resources. I put this in
here because I thought there'd be concerns from residents at this point about power. I've gotten some
questions from some regarding the power situation. What can the city do if there's no power. At this
point we're really not hurried to make any kind of statement but what we did do is basically I work, or
getting information from the utilities that we're directly involved with. NSP was the major concern. If
we have power here, a lot of our concerns will already be handled. These are notes that both came from
Hennepin County, the meeting that the Mayor and I attended last Thursday and also on their site. What
NiP is telling us is they have basically twice the power generators they actually need on any given day.
They make a statement that they could lose two plants and no customer would know. They're on the grid
along with, it's actually from the Atlantic Coast to the Rocky Mountains, they're on that power grid.
They have the ability to take themselves off the grid if there are affects from other, you know outside
their capabilities. Although they don't expect...to do that. They make a statement they'll be fully
compliant by June of '99 and they do make the statement, their bottom line is they expect no abnormal
power outages basically outside of anything that you would normally have on any given day, such as
someone hitting a power pole. They don't expect anything as a result of Y2K. That doesn't mean that
we can't not have contingency plans. It's good news but we still have to have plans in place just to show
our due diligence. And again that's an area that we will be involving attorneys to draw those plans up.
The other power company that we have in Chanhassen is Minnesota Valley Power and they get their
power from Cooperative Power out of North Dakota and they make a general statement. They've tested
one of their coal fire plants already and found it to be compliant. They still have another plant yet to do
chat they'll do in their outage. It will be in the spring of this year. But they do make a statement that they
,expect no power outages as a result of the Y2K. Telephone services. Again, these are notes from
ltennepin County and also from the web page. This is something that we do need to get out to residents.
They ask us for whatever help that we can get. They expect to be fully compliant by, they make the
statement July of '99. But they do expect, this is going to the busiest calling day in their history and they
:anticipate that they will see, or you will see a delay in the time it takes to get a dial tone. You pick the
phone up, it's going to take, they said like up to like 10 seconds to get dial tone and they asked people to
be patient about that because you keep picking up and shutting it down, it's going to make, it still takes
10 seconds or whatever the time will be at that time and all that does is tend to clog the system some
more. But they do not expect to see any problems as a result of the Y2K and again that's their statement.
And last is the gas services. We're currently serviced only by Minnegasco in this area. They're done
with their testing. These again are statements from their web page and also from the meeting. The
testing's completed. They have back-up power at all their pump plants so they can generate or at least
pump gas without utility power. All the systems can be operated manually. And their bottom line is they
don't expect residential service to be affected. Although they did make one disclaimer that they have not
done all their testing yet with their suppliers and they get their gas out of Canada and out of, it's off shore
sites in southern, off the south coast. And here again, here in the United States yet. So there's still some
things that they're concerned with. My remediation. I expect the first date there is the 15th. Again that's
a city holiday. I'm planning on taking the servers down that day. Setting the clocks ahead. Well
actually this is taking the servers down. Getting the software for the operating systems compliant. Also
the hardware itself. The next 8 is the PC's. I want to finish all the client software. Word, Excel, Office
95 and all the bias on those machines by that date. Routers is one I'd like to bump up. I gave it that date
because it's, I believe that falls on another, I think it's the 30th that we have off. There's another holiday
in there that I'm trying to work in. A city holiday.
Kate Aanenson: Memorial :Day?
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City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Richard Rice: Memorial Day? That must be it. I'm trying to pick the days that I can actually...
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, that's Memorial Day.
Richard Rice: Okay, and not affect city employees. The financial software, I made the statement there
we're hoping to be June 1st is the last date. And then our water and sewer systems, that one may take a
little while longer because of the power issues and because of some of the other issues we'll have to
address regarding manufacturers that don't exist again. Let's see, some of this I've already covered.
Testing. Obviously I'm having that done by an outside firm and it will be done on the 15th. PC's I'm
doing in house myself. I'm taking one of each and what that means is taking the PC down. Actually
forcing the system clock to 10 minutes ahead and then running it forward again and making sure that the
actual system will function. And we'll do one of every type. At least one of every type by that date.
And then again all the major testing of all the operating systems will happen on the 4th of July weekend.
I know there's a city, I forgot about that. That we do have a city 4~ of July celebration.
Mayor Mancino: Well I think it's all outside.
Richard Rice: So there may be some issues with generating fliers and things we'll have to deal with.
And the last thing is the public statements here. This is something I have not yet, we've started with it. I
need to come up with a statement that we can actually release to the public. It will be something that
,council will have to approve. It will have to go through the attorney to make sure we're not making
statements or guarantees that we can't live up to and then it's whatever method we choose to release it to
the public and I'm suggesting it will probably be the web page and the newsletter and then through the
.county's programs. We have, I had one article that I had prepared for the newsletter. It's a fairly generic
statement but it's basically a short description of what the problem is. I'm not sure if council should
,have had it in their packets...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Charles Folch: ...from NSP and Minnesota Valley to a couple of our infrastructures. So the main thing
is, for us we're certainly going to go through the process of testing every, what we can° Confirming what
we can. But again I think a lot of it is going to focus on contingency plans in case there would be a
localized power outage of that type of nature but again from what we're hearing from the power
~companies and such, they don't anticipate but we're still going to prepare those contingency plans so.
But again we can run the entire system manually if need be.
Audience: ...
.Charles Folch: Well again that's a process.
Audience:...
Charles Folch: Absolutely, and that's why we're going to prepare the, we're going to assess those risk
factors for those different what if type scenarios and we're going to develop these contingency plans and
make that as a part of the report. Again, we're going to work cooperatively with Carver County because
Carver County certainly is interested in any time we have a major outage like that, it's more of an
emergency. It's a wide spread emergency type nature and certainly we want to make sure our efforts, our
plans are ,coordinated .wi-t-h what the -county would like to do also i.n t. hat situation and other adjacent
communities so this is, it's going to be us working together with multi agencies in this effort.
61
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Audience:...how much control do we have over that?
Charles Folch: Control in terms of?.
Audience: ...
Charles Folch: I'm not sure I follow you. In terms of the.
Councilman Senn: I think he's talking about pump stations. Blue Lake treatment.
Audience: ...
Charles Folch: The same manual type operation functions with our sewer system again as long as we
have power to run the pumps and the lift stations that for the sections of our system that run by force.
Again all that can be operated manually. It's not, there aren't automated controls.
Audience:...
Charles Folch: Again, this is a scenario that's very similar to electricity. Very similar to telephone
communications. Very similar to natural gas where we're interdependent upon another agency or utility
whatever to perform our services to the community and this again, all of our sewage basically flows into
mhe metro council interceptor sewer system and certainly we will be getting statements from them like we
have from NSP and all the other utility companies as to what their Y2K read or policy statement is going
to be on this. Basically all of, everything we have flows down hill. It's pumped up to a point where it
will flow down hill into the interceptor system and certainly we will get a Y2K statement from the Met
~Council on the Lake Ann Interceptor and the Duck Lake Interceptor which are the two systems we
connect into.
Mayor Mancino: Blue Lake treatment center, it goes...
Charles Folch: Well it crosses the river, that's correct. It actually goes through Eden Prairie. Most of
fl~e southern, the southern probably two-thirds of our community heads down into the Lake Ann
interceptor which when it goes through Eden Prairie the same interceptor, then it's given a different
name. It's called Red Rock but then it crosses the river just north of Blue Lake. Basically at that
location where the Blue Lake treatment plant is east of Shakopee.
Mayor Mancino: One thing...what if Eden Prairie...has power outages...Does that back up all of us?
Charles Folch: Again, we'll get a policy Y2K statement from Met Council concerning their contingency
plans for any of their pumping facilities along the interceptor system that would give us a read on what
lhat risk factor is going to be.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So you're assuming that...
Chiles Folch: Pardon me?
May~ Mancino: ._
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City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Charles Folch: I would tend to believe that the majority of the interceptor system is flowing by gravity. I
can't, I don't want to say that for sure because I'm not familiar with, where the system is as it goes
through Eden Prairie but through Chanhassen here it's a complete gravity system. So and I would guess
the majority down the line would be the same way. If they did have, I mean an interceptor system is
such a critical infrastructure that I, certainly if they do have those, we'll confirm they've got some type of
back-up generation. Typically that's something they set up with interceptor systems with back-up power
generation at their lift stations so, but we'll confirm all that.
Mayor Mancino: Any other questions?
Councilman Senn: Frank, as an alternative we could require a filtration device in every house, right?
Mayor Mancino: Why don't we move on real quickly to...great help with getting consulting work done
free ofcharge...Chanhassen residents and those who want to get involved. Any other...?
Councilman Senn: When we talked about setting this up in the first place...be real kind of specific about
the charge. And there were two things that we were you know kind of concerned about. One was putting
together a group of really knowledgeable people who can analyze essentially what we've done to date.
And also look at where we need to go from here and bring back some recommendations to us in
determining where we should go as far as our computer needs...information systems needs are, well all
systems really. And you know our network needs and everything going forward because I mean again
,one o£our concerns is you know we've stuck several million into MIS/GIS system and we want to both
.get a handle on what's there as well as get a handle on where we're going and where we're going to end
:t~p and what it's going to take to get there. That's something you know I don't think that we
tmve...inclination nor talent to deal with and that was kind of the reason getting this group set up. And
secondarily was to basically plug in and be a resource as it relates to Y2K issues. So those I think were
the two primarily tasks that we wanted this group to do, In terms of what we've got here, the only I
.guess questions or concerns I had, one is this seems to plug back in the telephone system replacement
stuff which we kind of took out and we said we don't want to address for nowu Sure, go ahead.
Richard Rice: Basically any capital expense that wasn't related to Y2K with the exception of the one
printer was removed from that budget and basically is subject to that study group's recommendations.
Councilman Senn: Okay, but what we kind of said about the study group is those two things we just
lalked about is what we'd really like them to concentrate on and deal with rather than, at least in you
know for now getting into telephone system replacement issues.
Richard Rice: I see.
Mayor Mancino: That may be one of the things that they say we shouldn't?
Todd Gerhardt: Internet servers.
Richard Rice: Some of that does kind of interact. The telephone system, actually what's happen is the
computer networks and telephone systems are starting to merge. One of the items on the original line
item budget was a wide area network that's based on fiber optic cable as opposed to US West T1 lines°
And that would integrate both the voice and data so it involves both, you know carrying voice traffic and
data lraffie be'twe, en~the-.two :buildings. And i~t does .also integrate .at the user' s .desktop you'd .ac-tually
have voice mail, you'd actually see your voice mail messages. Who they came from, if it was within the
63
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
city, and if you had Caller ID you'd see that as well. But you'd also see how many e-mail messages you
had and there's some other options that you could actually control your phone features from your laptop.
But what's happening is that's all kind of coming together. That is part of the new trend. What we're
seeing now too with phone systems is that, even companies that, like for instance Cisco, the company
that makes our routers is now making a telephone switch to route all the voice and data through their
equipment. They've been traditionally a data company. And all the phone companies are in turn now
looking at integrating e-mail and while they also integrating voice mail. They're integrating e-mail
services within their switches and they're becoming almost the same. So some it does interrelate.
Todd Gerhardt: And TMC has allowed us access to that high fiber.
Councilman Senn: That was part of our deal with them in terms of it going in that they get the access to
the public buildings, correct?
Todd Gerhardt: Yep, and their lines go by them.
Councilman Senn: And then other than that, just the only comment would, you know I'd really like to
see this group be you know not too large so it's workable. Maybe 5 or people or something like that but
also make sure that you know at least hold out initially to see if we can get some, how would I say, some
really experienced people that we can tap their expertise versus most of us who are more...
Richard Rice: One of the concerns I have with that is, I would very much like to have a board of
computer consultants. Some of them may be reluctant to be on a board if they're actually trying to sell
:services to this city so that could be an issue with some. I may miss some people.
Councilman Senn: A lot of people working in MIS, GIS departments for major corporations that live
here in town.
Richard Rice: That's what I'm hoping to find.
Councilman Senn: So I'm hoping that's really the kind of people that ~ve can get into this group and tap
their knowledge basically without you know affecting their livelihood so to speak.
Mayor Mancino: And also making sure that we don't have a conflict of interest. That somebody is, that
sells that material...
Councilman Senn: Well I'm just saying, most the major corporations in town aren't in that business so.
Richard Rice: I already have some contacts with some of the IS staff so I don't know whether they're
interested or not.
Mayor Mancino: The Mayor just volunteered.
Councilwoman Jansen: Well since Mark isn't here. And isn't this his area?
Councilman Senn: Oh sure. Real nice guy° He's not here.
Mayor Mancino: I nominate ....
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City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilwoman Jansen: And Roger, can we do that in his absence?
Roger Knutson: It's required that he be absent.
Mayor Mancino: ... feel comfortable with starting, getting something in...
Councilwoman Jansen: The only thing I pondered was where we say that this knowledge and prior
experience is desirable. Might we want to make that more ora required and just narrow in the focus in of
the applicants that we're getting?
Councilman Labatt: There's going to be no consultants...some of these guys are in this profession for a
living. There's going to be no compensation.
Councilman Senn: No, no. But I mean most people in the computer business are not you know
consultants. I mean we have big, big resources which I think Rick will agree that we can draw from that
have nothing to do with people effectively trying to sell services. Who are simply out of corporate
depart~nents.
Mayor Mancino: We'll...applications.
Councilwoman Jansen: Thanks for putting that together. Appreciate it.
Mayor Mancino: ...thank you very much.
Councilwoman Jansen: Thank you. That was a lot of work you put together for us.
Richard Rice: You'll probably see those slides again.
APPOINTMENT OF TWO CITY COUNTCIL MEMBERS TO SERVE ON THE SOUTH~VEST
TRANSPORTATION COALITION.
.Councilman Senn: Well since you filled my Southwest Transit position, I'll volunteer for this one.
Councilwoman Jansen: And I definitely have an interest in this particular project if no one else is
chomping at the bit to be on here, I would certainly like to be able to be a part of it and hear some of the
planning that's going on.
Councilman Labatt: I've got no problem with them.
Mayor Mancino: The only thing I would ask, and I ask this of myself to be on Southwest Metro is that
once a month we do kind of give reports...
Councilman Labatt: I'I1 make a motion...Councilwoman Jansen and Councilman Senn to the Southwest
Transportation Coalition.
Mayor Mancino: Second.
65
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
'Councilman Labatt moved, Mayor Mancino seconded to appoint Councilman Senn and
Councilwoman Jansen to the Southwest Transportation Coalition. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Mayor Maneino: Let me just say two things. One is, during our presentation is a question for council
members. The July 4th...committee is starting to meet and one of the things that they would like to...
cook at a cookout in the neighborhood. How does everybody feel about that?
Councilman Senn: As long as there's no liability associated with it, I think we could probably do it.
Mayor Mancino: ...okay and.
Councilman Senn: And there is no liability now you're sure with us?
Todd Gerhardt: That's what we pay public officials liability insurance for.
Councilman Labatt: So is that like the neighborhood that wins...?
Mayor Mancino: Yes...
.Councilman Senn: I get to furnish the attire for the council.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, we're all saying yes. Can you...space needs in the District 112 because I know
that Minnetonka school district also has space concerns. The Minnewashta Elementary School. Can
you...next council meeting an update?
Todd Gerhardt: Sureo
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
A. COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT(CDBG) FUNDING OPTIONS,
PLANNING DIRECTOR.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. This year we've been allocated $51,320.00. As you know the magic
number's $50,000.00. Last year we were under that. We were at $49,000.00 something so we were in
the consolidated pool which we did not receive any funding. Because we've been allocated the
$51,000.00, unless we pick up a project that's low priority, we probably have a pretty good chance of
receiving the money. What I'm proposing is, we have noticed in two weeks a public hearing on this item
but just wanted to run past the suggestion that we had and that was taking the money to buy a lot...one of
the houses that we own onto the property. The county thinks this is a very good idea. It does have high
priority and again it has to benefit low...but this would be permanent housing benefiting low and
moderate income so that's what our recommendation would be. We did have to get that notice in the
paper to meet the requirement so I did have to go with this as a notice. We certainly could change it if,
but this would be my recommendation.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, .Axty other questions?
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City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilman Senn: Nothing for us to do tonight then?
Kate Aanenson: No. The public hearing in two weeks.
Mayor Mancino: Are there any other options or any other things that councihnembers...for that money
thai we could also use it for? Say it now or forever hold your peace.
Conncilxvoman Jansen: Leave that to the pro.
Mayor Mancino: Kate, I think this is a great idea.
Councilwoman Jansen: Yeah, terrific.
Councilman Labatt: When you mentioned...any ideas about locations?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. I'd just as soon not disclose all those so we don't get outbid. We did spend some
time going through the county records and finding some of those tougher lots that other people may be
looking at so we'll be putting together bids on that. We wouldn't get our funding until July Ist, which
ties to that August date that we just talked about but I think maybe we can make an offer...funding
soarce and the like so we can make sure that we have those two things together so. If you're interested in
that, I can talk to you Steve. I'd be happy to share that with you.
Mayor Mancino: Well maybe Kwik Trip wants to...
Kate/kanenson: That's an option too. That they may be willing to get it off if we can you know, yeah.
DISCUSSION OF HOUSING TAX CREDIT~ TH 5 & 41~ PLANNING DIRECTOR.
Kate Aanenson: Mr. Deanovic is here. Been waiting. He had requested support for a housing tax credit
project in the past the City has supported. The idiosyncrasy on this is that it's outside the MUSA and
hasn't received city approval yet. Bob Generous and I did go look at a similar product that he had done
in Eden Prairie. These are owner occupied as opposed to rental and... Obviously it has no standings as
far as approval yet but he wanted to get in the process of seeking the funding. Because it is an owner
occupied type use, you don't have a lot of in this price range of the town houses. That we've done in the
past are different styles than this. We felt comfortable supporting the project but I wanted to make sure
Ihe council felt good about it because it hasn't been approved. So he is here to answer questions.
Jim Deanovic: I guess I'd answer any questions you have...
Mayor Mancino: State your name and address.
Jim Deanovic: Jim Deanovic, 9465 Amsbury in Eden Prairie unfortunately but. I think there's a couple
of issues with projects like this. I think the density is always an issue. I think the quality of the
construction is an issue. I think when Kate went by our project in Eden Prairie I think you'd be hard
pressed to tell it from a market project. And I think if you talk to Chris Enger or Dave Lindahl of the
City,of Eden .Ih'aide t. hey '~d :probably substantiate that and they '.re real proud .of it. The CA. ty of Eden
Prairie TIF'd that project... What we like to do is take a piece of land that you can, you're not impacting
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City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
the neighborhood. We were kind of forced into a project in Plymouth where there was tremendous
opposition and we ended up getting that project approved~ We dealt with the neighbors who were in
opposition on...still on the putting on that project but I think we're in good shape there also. But density,
like I say, when you're doing something under 10 units per acre. Places to play. There is the potential to
have nice...look at a project like this right now. The land values are going up. Something that the city
would endorse the thought of doing a tax credit project. You go and you apply.~ .tax credits and may or
may not get them. That's what I'm looking for.
Kate Aanenson: I did say these were owner occupied. They're rental which we do not have a lot of in
the city. The townhouses we have, this is a different type product so these would be rental. For families
which again, we're hitting a different market bench and the other thing too is, you're looking at average
income of what, looking at 50% of those incomes at $31,000.00 so you're still talking it could be, easily
be professional people still but there's a different range within that.
Councilman Senn: But do these qualify under Met Council's guidelines as affordable housing units?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Yes. They actually go beneath that.
Jim Deanovic: Chanhassen right now is, at the highest point of the Chanhassen.. ~as was Eden Prairie
last year.
Mayor Mancino:...
Kate Aanenson: It's on Mr. Savern's piece.
Mayor Mancino: ...
Councilman Senn: But it's not Mill's site?
Mayor Mancino: If it's not Mill's site.
Kate Aanenson: No.
Mayor Mancino: Part of Mill's site because Mill's site is also zoned medium density housing.
Jim Deanovic: I've been dealing with Dennis Griswold at Pulte...I'd probably blend my site with his
site.
Kate Aanenson: ...adjoining property. He's aware of all those issues.
Jim Deanovic: ...want to do something that doesn't...Just to go in for this application is, there is
absolutely no guarantee...even if we get the funds, there's still a tremendous amount of hurdles to go
through to, I mean through the city. Through other funding sources that we have, there's a lot of hoops...
Councilman Senn: Are you anticipating...?
Jim Deanovic: Well if you don't do...and that's another thing. In the past, last year you had...That was
one of the .guys whot-thought that wasexcessive...That's what t would propose probably. I don't think
it would be funded if you don't have some type of home...
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City.Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Kate Aanenson: The good thing in looking at this property, you know we had guided potential
commercial next to this. Close to the school. Access. Transit. So we felt that...density and the like
isn't close to downtown. It had some other things going for it. Again, that's contingent upon all those
issues, a site plan. It's not going to come in til the year 2000...may not have sewer and water out there
for another, as the road, frontage road...2001 so he's aware of all that and he's trying to work his way
towards that...
Councilman Senn: Todd had mentioned that you potentially have another application coming in too~ I
mean if we start prioritizing, I mean do we have to prioritize applications or doesn't it make any
.difference?
So we're not required to prioritize them one way or another.
Kate Aanenson: Villages on the Pond was submitted before and generally just say...zoning in place if
this meets the criteria. No, this was one a few years ago. A senior housing project. Well assisted living.
Councilman Senn: I was just curious.
Jim Deanovic: ...Purgatory Creek runs right through there so we called it Purgatory Creek Family
Housing and everybody...well in Eden Prairie Purgatory Creek is really a bog so... South east comer.
Kate.Aanenson: Is there assisted living behind it?
'Jim Deanovic: Yeah, we developed the assisted living.
~Councilman Labatt: By the apartments there?
Kate Aanenson: Across the street. The PDQ, they're across the street.
Councilman Labatt: I mean for a point of reference here, it's going to be located near a convenience
store.
Kate Aanenson: Future zoning on that. Under the Mill's Fleet Farm, where the access road comes
fi. cross.
There will be a signalized intersection along Highway 5. This map here that I took. Okay. This doesn't
show a future land use. This is just for your edification but that road will cross Highway 5. There will
be a signalized intersection there. Century Boulevard.
Coancilman Labatt: Century Boulevard west?
Kate Aanenson: Correct. To the west of that, we had guided that up to like 2 ~A acres, 5 acres of support
commercial for that entire industrial. So that would provide some support commercial for any housing.
Councilman Labatt: Hook up with that north frontage road then?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Cotme~man Senn: lZig'hl,,.an/].the .new Kw~ Stop is basically right up, I mean if you follow basically
that road up, take a right, you're right at the Kwik stop.
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City,Council Meeting ~ February 8, 1999
Councilman Labatt: Okay.
Kate ^anenson: Yeah, but we did provide some other commercial on the other side too for some other
convenience which may support this.
Councilman Senn: I thought we didn't allow convenience stores there. I thought.
Kate Aanenson: That hasn't been guided yet. There's a land use designation.
Councilman Senn: Oh you're saying on the north side you mean?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Senn: Oh, okay.
It hasn't been given anything...that's what it's guided for as a possible use.
Well ....are you done?
Kate Aanenson:
Mayor Mancino:
Jim Deanovic:...
Mayor Mancino:
...Jim, I mean one of them is that it's certainly one of our housing diversity action
steps that we'd like to take in our new strategic plan to support a variety of owner occupied and rental
housing. My only challenge to the council is that we have often said that we wanted a mixed...the
market rate and some affordable...
Kate Aanenson: But there's a price range within that though. Income range.
Jim Deanovic: Yeah, the thing that you're going to find...the one that we did in Plymouth was an
apartment complex that was totally...
Councilman Senn: You don't have that many years left in your life is the answer, right?
Jim Deanovic: Yeah, yeah. That was a challenge but CSM did a similar project right behind Gallyan's
on Highway 12 and when you have a mix like that it's hard to justify...and see this person you're
charging this and this person you're charging because they qualify, their income was...At CSM's project
they're having a hard time re-renting the market rate at the end of the year after the lease...
Councilman Senn: And they're having a heck of a time selling the condo's, right?
Jim Deanovic: Are they?
Councilman Senn: That's what I heard.
Jim Deanovic: Now if you go by that project, that project really does look good. It doesn't, our project
in Plymouth looks considerably better. But it's the same principle...
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CityComaeil Meeting - February 8, 1999
Kate Aanenson: I guess yeah, as we looked at too, the 32 units on this. It's not that big, right~ When
v,,e've had projects come in 80.
Jim Deanovic:...not identified as affordable housing... I think if you certainly...they're not going to
differentiate housing styles...
Kate Aanenson:
that product too.
affordable.
There were single and two car garages in that one. So there's a different mix within
That's what I'm saying, you'll have different price ranges even though it's all
Councilman Senn: Really both of the projects he's talking about in Eden Prairie, you should go look at
them. They're good projects.
Mayor Mancino: Yeah...
Councilman Labatt: Where's the one in Plymouth?
Jim Deanovic: That's in Parkers Lake. It's about, it's almost...
.Councilman Senn: What do we need to do here?
Kate Aanenson: I was just looking for some direction. Generally I, if it's consistent with the zoning, I
would approve it. If it's a project that we've already approved. If it meets kind of the criteria because
{his is a little bit different, I just want to make sure that you're okay if we give a letter of support to the
project. With the understanding that it needs to proceed through the process.
Councilman Senn: You're applying for '99 tax credits and you can't build until 2001, is that a problem?
Jim Deanovic: We've got two years.
Councilman Senn: You've got two years to use them basically? Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Betting on the come. Until we get the sewer and water so...
Mayor Mancino: Thank you for staying tonight.
D. /kPPROVAL OF MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING CONCERNING NEW
HIGHWAY 212.
Councilman Senn: That item's no longer on the agenda. That was removed.
Mayor Mancino: Oh, you took that off?. And why did you take that off?.
Councilman Senn: Because I didn't include it in my motion to add it to the agenda with the publication
notices. And the reason is that (a), I don't think that item should go on any agenda without being in the
paper that we're going to be considering something on it. Kind of like the organizational one which we
put on the front page of the newspaper. I wasn't real concerned about people knowing about that but I
was ~oncemextabout 4~eople ~knowing about this. And secondly the memorandum that we'v.e gotten .back
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~CityCouncil Meeting - February 8, 1999
from them does little, at least...address any of our issues or concerns that we raised and so I think it
needs considerable more work.
Mayor Mancino: ...
Councilman Senn: Unless I have a wrong version but the version I have is they're almost identically to
the original version.
Mayor Mancino: Okay...so it's not on the agenda. Okay.
Anita Benson: The revised one, I believe some of the issues that were raised, the 494 upgrading. That's
not in the revised one. But we have addressed that and informed council members on what MnDOT's
program improvements are on that. And this was, I just got the revised one and didn't have an
opportunity to discuss it with the coalition prior to putting it in the packet. As far as the design
discussions. Those more detail oriented things. We've held the one work session. Unfortunately we
didn't have enough time to go through all the issues and there's another one scheduled for February 16th.
And that I guess I'm concerned with if you will, I'd ask that you look at the work session schedule if
you're going to look at the reorganization at that one also. That maybe I can reschedule with MnDOT
and Carver County for a different work session so that we can have an opportunity to have plenty of time
Io discuss it.
Mayor Mancino: Last time we ran out of time.
_tmita Benson: Correct. And the reasoning behind what the Southwest Quarter is trying to do, I think I
covered in the memo, is they wanted to have, I believe all the other communities have endorsed this and
~hey wanted to present it to the Commissioner of Transportation this coming Friday. Obviously they
wanted it fully endorsed. Without Chanhassen's endorsement I think they'll still present him with it so
lhat, I'm:assuming, because they do want to take advantage of the new administration and their
~commitment to transportation.
Councilman Senn: Well just really everybody should read it because the new one changes none of the
recitals that we were concerned about. The premise is you know effectively being recycled... There's
absolutely nothing changed on the prioritization and effectively the top priority is still to do segment two,
stage four which dumps effectively right onto our city with no other infrastructure answers in place
which we asked for answers on before and discussions to discuss and talk about and get answers to
before we would endorse that. And so like I say, read through it. I couldn't find closure on any thing
lhat we raised. That doesn't mean that there aren't meetings going on but that's not what we asked for.
We asked for basically guarantees in the agreements that we would have review over these things and
that these things would happen before any commitment to go forward with any of these priorities or
stagings would take place.
Anita Benson: IfI may. The Section 1.15. They do address the desire that funding for the construction
of all portions of 212 between Lyman Boulevard and Trunk Highway 41 be in place prior to the
completion of the construction of 212 to Lyman. So that is in the new memorandum.
Councilman Senn: Yeah but we had asked them to basically do all the way through the city at one time.
As one phase or one segment. That was what we asked for. And they were supposed to come back and
address to -us wherher-l~hey.could effectively do'that as one segment or not because I mean one of our
major concerns was basically taking this and dumping it onto TH 101 and Pioneer where we don't have
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City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
infrastructure in place to handle it. And so that hasn't changed, right? I mean that's still number one
priority as I'm reading this as far as use of the funding goes.
Mayor Mancino: Well you know, in all reality, if we think we're going to get a guarantee that they're
going to run it all through Chanhassen. They don't even know if they have funding...or they don't have
funding at this point, let alone say...one side to the other and we're still...talk about the intersections and
talk about the local...how much funding we're going to get from MnDOT...
Anita Benson: Correct, and ifI remember correctly from the discussions we had previously, and what
MnDOT has said, it is possible to have one enormous project but not, it's possible but not probable. And
what I remember from previous discussions was that if we could guarantee that the funding was there for
the construction of the next stage before the Lyman one occurred, the one up to Lyman occurred, if we
could guarantee that the funding was there for that to follow within the next couple of years to get it out
to TH 41, that that was something that Chanhassen could live with. And I'd have to go back to the old
city council meeting to find that discussion but that's what I remember.
Councilman Senn: No, that's right but I mean the key to that again was a resolution of the issues over
how it was going to function in the interim with existing infrastructure or were they going to upgrade
hafrastructure in the areas we're talking about, you know them dumping into and feeding but essentially
from a priority standpoint what we gave back to them was until all of those issues are answered and stuff
I mean we feel the number one priority for the funds should be used just for additional acquisition of
,right-of-way throughout the entire system. Not for designing and proceeding with segment of Stage IV
which was going to effectively create those potential problems at least that we don't have answers to at
.flais point. I kind of thought they were going to come back to us with at least some of that stuff but I also
was assuming we'd probably hear some of that on the 16th you know and this was popping in front of the
16~ so...not doing it tonight was really to wait until after that work session on the 16~ when we get some
.answers hopefully.
Anita Benson: Okay~ and that is what I had originally intended was to have this memorandum to bring to
you on the 16% along with a MnDOT presentation to address some more of the concerns. However, this
is something that the coalition brought up as a desire to present it this Friday to the Comrnissioner and
that's why you're seeing it before you tonight.
Mayor Mancino: Well so is it everyone's feeling to hold on it and wait until we have our 16th meeting?
Councilman Senn: Yeah.
Mayor Mancino: Okay?
E. REQUEST FOR CLARIFICATION OF RESOLUTION IN SUPPORT OF EASTERN
CARVER COUNTY COLLABORATIVE PLANNING PROJECT~ ACTING CITY MANAGER.
Todd Gerhardt: Staffwas just asking for clarification on the support for Phase II planning activity for the
Eastern Carver County Collaborative Planning Project. Do you want staff to put a cover memo to this as
send it down to the school district?
Mayor Mancino: Well... Saturday meeting with the legislators and that is on the 22nd I think of
Febn~ry... -there may-be more .clarification.. ,going forward of not. To bring back to the-council. I got
the impression...so we could go ahead and vote on it. My suggestion would be to...
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City Council Meeting ~ February 8, 1999
'Todd Gerhardt: The legislators didn't give a lot of hope to it?
Mayor Mancino: Yes and no, but it's centering more around the Arboretum...
Councilwoman Jansen: So am I hearing you right? They're not going to the legislature then for the
$4O0,000,00?
Mayor Mancino: I would say they're going to rethink that and yes, they may still go...what the next
steps would be.
Councilwoman Jansen: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: Because the legislature... It was a very informal session to say how do we...and the
legislature gave them...
Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. So then before we did anything on this we'd be having another
,conversation then? I see. Okay. I 'know you had said that Councilman Berquist had been attending
those meetings as well. Does that mean that another member of the council could in fact be going to
those meetings?
Mayor Mancino: ...what the next steps are...how do we want to participate.
Todd Gerhardt: You're all invited to the community leaders meeting, right? Because I mean you and
Steve have attended the ones I've attended. I just didn't know that,
Mayor Mancino: And actually they're...
Todd Gerhardt: Okay.
.Councilman Senn: You just need to send us notices then so we know when they are.
Todd Gerhardt: You're not getting the notices is the point? Okay.
Councilwoman Jansen: I don't think I've seen one.
Todd Gerhardt: So they're not getting the notices Mayor on that so I'll call Greg and make sure that your
mailing addresses so he can send those. Isn't it all the entire council invited to that?
Mayor Mancino: Oh anybody is. I mean it's very open. I think that what councils are trying to do is...
theyTre 7:00 to 9:00 on a Friday morning so it's kind of like...that's how it was always explained to me.
Todd Gerhardt: I didn't know.
Councilwoman Jansen: So if we're all getting notices, then we can touch base as to who's going to be
an early bird on a Friday morning.
Ma~x Mmaeino: Wettexactly, yeah.
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City Council Meeting o February 8, 1999
Todd Gerhardt: I missed the last one.
Councilman Senn: Can I ask a quick question?
Mayor Mancino: Well some people want to go. You know they're real hot and heavy for the next three
and then they've got things coming up so again, we just want to be represented. That's all.
Councilman Senn: Todd what, we got this meeting minutes from SRF. February 8t~ from our meeting
back on November 16~h. I'm glad to see this such a high priority that it takes three months just to get the
minutes back but it's my understanding that they've met with Eden Prairie and stuffbut I'm really kind
ora little concerned with the meeting minutes because I don't think the meeting minutes really describe
where we left it, the charges we left them with and that to come back to us with prior to it going out to,
for public review or discussion and stuff. So I don't know, where is the whole thing right now?
Todd Gerhardt: The Mayor and I are going to meet with the City of Eden Prairie this next Tuesday, I
think it is. The 16t~'. And they invited us to this meeting to give us I think their perspective on...on TH
101. Sit down and brainstorm you know how the two cities should go about going through the hearing
process would be my guess. Where we go from here and didn't get a lot of feedback from the Mayor to
really see an agenda of what they want to talk about but that would be my guess. Is that they want to sit
down and see how to inform the public about the different options. Next Tuesday?
~Councilwoman Jansen: Are you in town?
Todd Gerhardt: 11:30 to 12:30. Well it was just their city manager and mayor to meet with our mayor
and me at a restaurant for lunch to talk about the process.
Mayor Mancino: I don't know but I don't think it's...remember when I had lunch with...boundary issues
and...
Todd Gerhardt: It may not even be about TH 101. I guess I was guessing.
Councilman Senn: If there's any TH 101 meetings or whatever, I'd really like to know about them
because I'd like to be there for them.
Mayor Mancino: I don't know what that is.
Councilman Senn: This was in our box.
Conncilwoman Jansen: This was in our mailboxes. Tonight.
Mayor Mancino: But what does it say? What's the concern that you have?
Councilman Senn: It basically cites our concerns, okay. But we asked them to go you know actually
prepare all the options and come back and show us all the options and we also asked them to respond to
some of our questions in relationship to you know what was really providing the need and all that for
the.., mega highway or the deal that they wanted to do. Then they were also supposed to go meet with
the city of Eden Prairie and come and report back to us in terms of what the priorities, you know
response-or issues ~an~-ai1-~at stuff was bet'ore we would proceed with setting up a public .... Quite
honestly I mean we've already sent numerous articles out and numerous whatevers out to public meetings
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City Council Meeting ~ February 8, 1999
and things where.., were supposed to have already started months ago and people are the same old
question. I mean what's being done to us again. You know. No public meetings. No, you know this
issue's going to, we keep saying we're going to get time lines on this issue and we're going to have
public meetings and get input and it's going to be proceeding but we keep meeting all the deadlines~
Mayor Mancino: Well I don't remember the deadlines but.
Councilman Senn: Well, we published them so we ought to look at them.
Mayor Mancino: ...I mean I remember leaving the meeting that we had in October...very specifically
saying to them, absolutely.., so there were some questions. There were a couple residents saying some
questions but in the last...
Todd Gerhardt: I think they just recently completed their meeting in Eden Prairie here just the last week
/n January.
Councilwoman Jansen: I just read something about it in the Eden Prairie news and I meant to Xerox it
to bring it in. It even quotes Jean Harris saying that well she'll be contacting Mayor Mancino to follow
up on what just occurred. I'll make sure I Xerox that article.
Councilman Senn: They're pretty accurate in terms of what they're saying they were going to go put
aogether and bring back. So I mean that's all outlined in here. It's just that we need to kind of keep it
moving and I kind of assumed they'd be back to us by now.
Todd Gerhardt: I remember at the meeting it was kind of that, you know if Eden Prairie...
Councilman Senn: We'd like to see all possible options. Two lane, three lane, four lane undivided, four
lane divided that we could put before the public for input but we'd like to see them first~ We also told
them we'd like to see it tabled... We asked her, oh I doWt know, something over splitting the traffic
:between Dell Road and TH 101~ You know thus necessitating not that you have...to look at that issue
but I came back to kind of Eden Prairie meeting and like I say, it's a lot of it's pretty much in here.
Councilwoman Jansen: It sounds like they're probably ready for the next meeting with us hopefully
from things being said. Just a matter of following up.
Todd Gerhardt: I'm sure...not real excited about that last option.
Councilman Senn: Well I know they lobbied very heavily to keep it from going there in the first place.
Councilman Labatt: ...maybe it would be to our advantage...
Councilwoman Jansen: And you know it's interesting. They don't publish their agendas at all so the
only thing that you can actually follow in the Eden Prairie paper on the city council meetings is
whatever's in the public hearing notification. So otherwise.
Mayor Mancino: Tell us that again. They don't publish their agenda.
Councilwoman :lan~en: 'No,.and they don~:t legally have.to then? The :full agenda. It's just the public
hearing piece of whatever's on the agendas that ends up in the legal notices.
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City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilman Senn: I thought the statutes that we reviewed for local newspaper said that, effectively a -
clear and concise listing or agenda would be published in terms of any official meeting. And then it also
went on in the statutes and again I don't have them in front of me so I could be wrong on some of this.
Roger Knutson: They publish for you. You don't have to...
Councilman Senn: Well but this was under the requirements for a local newspaper. Not under our
requirements.
Roger Knutson: No, that's what they do.
Councilman Senn: And stuff. Okay, and then they also had a deal in there that said that the local
newspaper had to basically report on each item that the council took action on and what the action was
and you know if they chose to expand them, certain ones they could expand them but there should be a
reporting of each action item.
Councilwoman Jansen: The Chaska paper never has an agenda either.
Roger Knutson: I don't know any city that doesn't publish...
Mayor Mancino: Chaska doesn't. Chaska and Eden Prairie don't.
Councilwoman Jansen: Not the full agenda doesn't appear in the newspaper. They just started trying to
pull those. I though that made us look pretty good actually. Yeah. I mean not to try and change
anything.
.Councihnan Senn: Even though nobody would appreciate it, right?
Councilwoman Jansen: I was actually looking to just see what sort of details they put in there°
Todd Gerhardt: They put half of it in this last time.
Mayor Mancino: Actually I think...I think we still need to get a formal...
Todd Gerhardt: I think Anita's working on that. We'll hear and I'll get you an update on the Alley News
on that.
Mayor Mancino: Great.
Councilwoman Jansen: Well and they mayor and I kind of touched on it briefly but we were talking
about on these meetings, if in fact we can make it a 2 member attendance just so there's the two
perspective at the meeting so if you're keeping all of us kind of in the loop. You know obviously TH 101
to Mark is pretty significant and these other things just for involvement sake would be good.
Councilman Senn: Why would se do that? We didn't have balance when it was over in your
neighborhood.
77
City Council Meeting - February 8, 1999
Councilman Labatt: I just want to ask Todd a question.. ~Elizabeth alluded to it when she got up and
made her speech regarding memos that were in reference to Scott Harr's phone bill .... verify the phone
bill to us?
Todd Gerhardt: She gave me a memo regarding her discussion with the phone company. You know I
haven't sat down with her yet to say we don't need...another phone...the additional minutes. We want to
also cancel that program...so I need to sit down with Elizabeth. There's no question that they billed us
wrong and everything else but you know we need to clean up that... I'll put the memo in the next...
Mayor Mancino: ...
Todd Gerhardt: Well everybody's on a different program. You know I'm on one that I think is like 175
minutes a month for $15.00 and somebody else in one for 275 minutes for $25.00. Scott's was the only
one ! was aware of where we had, I don't know, 1,000 minutes for $230.00.
Councilman Senn: How long was it on that plan?
Todd Gerhardt: He just started it about, two pay periods so it was like October-November.
Councilman Senn: A couple months.
Mayor Mancino adjourned the meeting at 12:15 a.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
Acting City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
78
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JANUARY 26, 1999
Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Ron Roeser, Fred Berg, Mike Howe, Rod Franks and Dave
Moes
MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Manders
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent, Dawn Beitel, Recreation Supervisor; Susan Marek, Interim Rec Center
Coordinator; and Cynthia Kirchoff, Planner I.
Public Present:
Name Address
Greg & Barb Hedlund
Barbara Kreisler
Alex Wagenaar
Kelli Komru
Cinda Jensen
Laurie Gauer
Mike Wegler
Karol Johnson
Mary Perkins
Barb Lemke
Valerie McCullough
Tom Ebenreiter
Margaret Klasterman
Charles Chuva
John Oberstar
Ann Miller
Frank Scott
Gregg A. Aune, CAA President
Charles Nagel
Marie Schroeder
748 Lake Point
764 Lake Point
890 Fox Court
890 Fox Court
2173 Brinker Street
3820 Lone Cedar Lane
6630 Mohawk Drive
1001 Lake Lucy Road
1001 Highway 7, Hopkins
1001 Highway 7, Hopkins
1001 Highway 7, Hopkins
6530 Fox Path
6471 Fox Path
6521 Fox Path
796 Lake Point
6561 F ox Path
CAA
8705 Chanhassen Hills Drive No.
6340 Fox Path
6600 Lores Trail
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Gregg Aune: My name is Gregg Aune. I'm currently the new President of the CAA.
My
address is 8705 Chanhassen Hills Drive North. We're here to present a proposal for bleachers
Bluff Creek. Here to present that is our administrator, Frank Scott.
Frank Scott: Hello. I'm Frank Scott, administrator for the CAA. I have a bid here. I'm goin
just hand it out... I come before you a couple month~ ago and we talked about doing some
cooperative ventures. At that time I said we wouldn't do it piece meal but unfortunately we'n
trying to put together the big plan and it hasn't come together yet and this particular item wou]
be something we'd like to have for our baseball and sOftball league which is coming up in Api
May. The reason we're looking for bleachers at Bluff Creek is part of our program is to get'th
family together and get the parems out to watch the kids play. The kids like it a lot more whel
there's somebody back there watching them and cheering them on and saying nice catch and
things like that. And with no bleachers over there, you're sitting on the ground. If somebody
brings a chair along, then they've got it. Otherwise they're just sitting on the ground over the~
There is no place for them to sit. What we're looking for is bleachers. The short ones. They~ e
about 3 foot high. They're three levels. They seat about 30 people per bleacher. We would 1:
to see two on every field. There's five fields over there at BtuffCreek. This bid that we have .s
for ten so the price per bleacher would be $559.00. The Board of the CAA has authorized us
buy five of these. What we would be looking for is if the city could buy the other five. Then ! ~e
would have two bleachers at each field. One on each side at the backstop so people can do th~
that's the most common kind of bleacher you see. Because of some of the discussions
And
bleachers this last couple of weeks, these are only 3 foot off the ground. They're not high at ~ 1.
And they are up to code according to Mike Korse who has looked into this so there should be ~ao
safety problems. It takes 4 to 6 weeks to get them. We'd certainly like to have them in place
May 1st. So if we could get, like I say, we'll pay for half 0f them. If we could get you guys tc
pay the other half, it would be a good thing. Any questions?
Roeser: These are just for the ballfields, not the soccer fields?
Frank Scott: Well what would happen, they're light. They're aluminum. We would see
repositioning them out along the soccer fields in the fall and then back. They wouldn't be
necessarily anchored down. So they would do .both soccer and softball-baseball.
Moes: So they are portable then to move around?
Frank Scott: Yeah. They're not very heavy.
Moes: How many baseball games are there usually in a week?
Frank Scott: We have, we fill the thing up at least Monday-through Thursday and sometimes
'Saturdays. And in some cases we have actually two games a night0n a single field. We star~
one game at 6:00 and the other one at 7:10 so on Tuesdays and Thursdays and we have the
younger kids with the machine pitch. We have two games on one field. We don't do the, wit.
would'be called T-ha'f1 over'here. Nlost of the stuff that' s done t.here is, 'because of the eleclr~
it's a machine pitch. We've got machine pitch both in baseball and in softball so most ofth~
Lt
It
to
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
games, then we also do the fast pitch softball because last year the city set up some mounds in
which you set a different, four different positions so that we could have official baseball, meeting
ASA requirements. So most of it's either softball or machine pitch baseball.
Franks: What about during the winter? Would these be left out in the field or would you need
some kind of storage space?
Frank Scott: Well they're fairly good size. But they would be left out in the field. We left the
soccer nets out this year and there was nobody messed with them so we're certainly hoping there
won't be anybody tearing them up. But you never know.
Lash: What you're proposing Frank is that the CAA would pay for half and Park and Rec would
pay for half?.
Frank Scott: Yes. That would be what we'd propose.
Lash: Do we have something in our budget this year for this?
Hoffman: Not for this park but you do have, I know there's an allocation for Bandimere. I
believe it's $20,000.00 for bleachers so you could utilize some of those dollars and ask the
council to just transfer some money out of Bandimere to the recreation center if you so choose.
Lash: Does that cut us short then for Bandimere?
Hoffman: Sure. A little bit.
Franks: Todd, has there been any...negotiations with vendors about bleachers for Bandimere?
What I'm wondering is if you were just looking at buying everything all at once, about taking the
per unit cost down if we can buy them...
Hoffman: We can take a look at that.
Franks: I'm just jumping in Frank. Maybe there's a way to swing this all. If we go ahead and
purchase everything and CAA could still be responsible for their number or maybe even a few
more if you got that dollar amount allocated and we could actually get more for our money.
Frank Scott: When we put our bigger plan together, we assumed to be helping some at
Bandimere also. We don't know what is being done there but we're sure we're going to need
that. To step in someplace. One of the, this is a bid we got through Mike Korse at Midwest
Playscape. I had also gotten a bid, Jerry called Steve? I believe Steve was his name. And his
price for these same bleachers was about $200.00 more so. We may go out and get some more
bids but there is some savings to be had if you want to do that.
Lash: Well according to our policy of visitor presentations, this will be tabled until the next
available agenda so does anyone have any other questions for Frank?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 26, 1999
Moes: The question I have is from the Bandimere standpoint. When will those bleachers going
to be coming in? What I'm hearing Frank ask is something for 1999 baseball, softball, soccer
season. Is Bandimere's bleachers in that range or are they being ordered or are they?
Lash: ...be able to use the fields?
Hoffman: After mid-summer we'll be on those fields, yeah~
Franks: After the next meeting could we possibly have a little rehash of...Bandimere?...
Hoffman: Yeah, sure. Yeah, we can bring you some proposals for the whole, we'll have you
take a look at it.
Lash: Would that be available for next month or not?
Howe: We'll have to decide. For May 1st we've got to decide at the next meeting.
Frank Scott: Pretty tight. The one thing we can do is if you decide to go ahead, we could front
the money immediately and then get it back. We do have a little buffer in our budget so if you
decide to do it, we can put in our order and pay for them.
Lash: I would say we'll be tabling this until the February meeting, and at that time we'll have
more information regarding potential savings by doing a mass purchase and if you want to come
that night to find out what's going on. Okay, thank you°
Frank Scott: Thank you.
Lash: Are there any other visitor presentations at this time?
Laurie Gauer: I'm Laurie Gauer, River Bluff Service Unit of Girl Scouts Council of Greater
Minneapolis Service Unit Manager. And Day Camp Director. And Cinda Jensen. She is one of
the Assistant Directors out at our Day Camp and we are here to request usage of the paddleboats
out at Lake Ann for our day camps this summer. We have hosted a day camp for the last eight
years out at Minnewashta Regional and part of our camp is to have a water activity and
preferably using some sort of watercraft. Did all of you receive this letter from Cinda and have
had a chance to read it? Okay, so I won't need to go through that letter. A few of the points that
Cinda and I wanted to make and then answer your questions on that. Was that we feel this
activity will actually increase usage of your paddleboats by Chanhassen residents. About 30% or
higher of the girls out at camp are Chanhassen residents. We can possibly even generate more
revenue for you for a rental fee than you usually get during that week for the paddleboats. There
would be no liability for you. Insurance would be covered totally Girl Scoutso And hopefully we
can work out something that you don't have any negative impact at Lake Ann. You know
leaving one or two paddle'boats lhere so, did you have anything else you wanted to add?
4
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Cinda Jensen: No, I think that's it. We just want to ensure that there wouldn't be a negative
impact for usage at Lake Ann. At the same time be able to offer this out to, we're estimating
about 380 campers this summer at camp. And this services Victoria and Chanhassen and
Chaska. But like Laurie mentioned, about a third o£those girls are Chanhassen residents.
Laurie Gauer: Any questions?
Lash: Yeah, we'll take questions. Mike, do you have any?
Howe: I have more for Jerry.
Lash: Okay. Does anybody have questions for Laurie at this time?
Howe: No, I don't have any, no. I think the letter's well done.
Lash: Okay. Go ahead Mike.
Howe: Can we do this? I mean how many boats do we have?
Ruegemer: We currently have five paddleboats out at Lake Ann. What I did today was pull out
the 1998 boat revenues and did an average daily, kind of a revenue type of for those paddleboats
throughout the course of summer. And basically the daily rental fee was right around $30.00. So
if they, you know times that by however many days that they would like to use it, that would be
roughly what, about $120.00 roughly for the rental fee for that. If you take the average of that.
Moes: I'm sorry, Jerry is that $30.00 per boat per day or $30.00 per day?
Ruegemer: That was overall.
Howe: ...leaving one.
Ruegemer: I'm sorry?
Howe: Would you recommend leaving one there...?
Ruegemer: I would, if the commission decides to grant this request tonight, yes. I would like to
have at least one on site to do rentals for the general public.
Howe: I don't have a problem with that. I think if you left one behind, I'm okay with it.
Lash: Okay, Dave.
Moes: That covered my question.
Lash: Rod.
5
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Franks: You mentioned we'd leave one or two back.
Laurie Gauer: Well whatever you felt was comfortable, you know. We need them all but, you
know the more we have out there the more program we can offer to the girls. Quality
programming but we are also looking at getting paddleboats from neighbors around Lake
Minnewashta also so. You know again we don't want to negatively impact Lake Ann and if I
was a resident going out to Lake Ann planning to use a paddleboat, you know I would want to
make sure there's at least one there.
Franks: In your letter you mentioned that you'd do the transporting too° Do you have the
equipment? Trailers?
Laurie Gauer: Yeah. Last year we had sailboats out there and transported them back and forth.
The year before it was canoes.
Franks: Would they be returned daily or would you?
Laurie Gauer: No, they'd be chained and locked out at Minnewashta.
Franks: All right, so you.
Laurie Gauer: And we do notify the Carver County Sheriff that they're out there. Carver County
Parks are aware of it. Marty Walsh. You know they keep an eye on it. The City of Chan so
everybody is aware that they are out there and kind of keep an eye on them for us too.
Lash: Do you have anything Fred?
Berg: No. I would support this I think if Jerry, you can assure tne that we can leave enough
paddleboats there to serve the public. So that there's no citizen that comes and says I wanted to
use one and it wasn't there. So I think we have to balance that against this obvious good too. So
if you can get some hard numbers on what we could realistically expect at that time in the
summer.
Lash: Ron.
Roeser: Yeah, basically it's kind of up to Jerry. To what you can operate with. I think it's kind
of, I would go along with your decision° Whatever you think works out for you.
Lash: I would want to make sure that before we did this, the paddleboats were checked
thoroughly by staff or someone to make sure that everyone's in agreement with the.., so that
when we turn them over to you there's no misunderstanding...this was on it when we got it or
this wasn't on it when we got it. And so that's, so we're real clear on if there are any kinds of
damages or you know. I mean obviously there's going to a lol-more wear and tear/n one week
than...yeah, and that's the reason you're going to have them so that's a little bit ora concern too.
6
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
And the other thing would be, I guess you know I'm a huge Girl Scout supporter and I used to be
a leader and I think this is a great idea. But I would want to be careful that we don't set
precedent for other types of requests like this. I do think Girl Scouts is an organization. I
wouldn't want you know a neighborhood to come and say we want to have our neighborhood
picnic. Can we take them over to Lake Susan or you know. This could open a whole can of
worms for us so I think we need to be really careful on how this is handled and that it's pretty
clear that it's an organization or something. That's all. So given all those comments, is there
someone would at least, we can't really take action on it tonight anyway. We have to...together
as a commission and then we can act on it in February. So you're welcome to come back in
February or we can contact you. Whichever is the most convenient for you.
Laurie Gauer: Thank you for your time.
Lash: Okay, any other visitor presentations this evening? Okay, seeing none we'll move on to
Approval of Minutes.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Lash: Is there anyone with corrections to the Minutes? I have one. It's sort ora large type
correction and it really is no one's fault. It's not Nann's fault...my fault. In that we did not have
listed on here the fact that Mayor Mancino and Council member Jansen were in attendance and
there are comments made on the record, although it says audience dot, dot, dot. A lot of them
weren't picked up but that those comments were made. There were only two audience members
here that night. And also at the end of the meeting, previous to our, previous to me calling the
question for adjournment, there was some discussion between Mayor Mancino and the council
regarding a couple different items that are not reflected ! think because the tape recorder wasn't
going and I would like to have some type of acknowledgment to the topic that was discussed that
evening and as I recall it was Bluff Creek corridor and the senior citizens had a request of a
garden or something... Does anybody remember differently than that? Todd, do you have notes
at all from that?
Hoffman: I sure do.
Lash: Okay. Could you do just kind of a little summary type of thing that could be added to the
record for that?
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash: And you know just in the future I will...making sure that people in the audience are
coming to the podium when they are on the record so that we have that on the official record.
Okay? Given that correction, is there anyone that will make a motion to approve?
Berg: So moved.
Lash: Is there a second?
7
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Howe: Second°
Berg moved, Howe seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation
Commission meeting dated December 15, 1998 amended to reflect the discussion between
the commission and Mayor Mancino at the end of the meeting. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
ELECT 1999 CHAIR PERSON AND VICE CHAIR PERSON.
Lash: So, how do we do that? Open for.
Hoffman: Open for nominations. Among the members.
Howe: I nominate you again Mike.
Lash: Oh thanks Mike.
Berg: Secondo
Lash: Anyone else who's you kmow dying for this...? Yes, so I, ill am reappointed would
gladly accept that position. Okay, do we need to vote on that?
Hoffman: Yes.
Howe moved, Berg seconded to appoint Janet Lash as Chairwoman of the Park and
Recreation Commission for 1999. All voted in favor, except Lash who abstained, and the
motion carried,
Lash: Okay, do we have a nomination for Vice Chair?
Roeser: It might as well be Fred Berg again.
Lash: Fred does a good job.
Berg: There's an overwhelming endorsement.
Roeser: That's what you told me to say.
Lash: Fred, are you up to that challenge?
Berg: Sure.
Lash: 'Okay. Any oXher'nominalions? Okay, all in favor of Fred as Vice Chair?
8
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Roeser moved, Lash seconded to appoint Fred Berg as Vice Chairman of the Park and
Recreation Commission for 1999. All voted in favor, except Berg abstained and the motion
carried.
Franks: ...both of you had 100% attendance record for 1998.
SPECIAL RECREATION SERVICES AGREEMENT; BARB LEMKE, D/RECTOR OF
RECREATION AND INCLUSION SERVICES AND MARY PERKINS~ EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR; WEST HENNEPIN COMMUNITY SERVICES.
Beitel: Thank you Chairman and commissioners. I have asked Barb Lemke, who is the Director
of Recreation and Inclusion Services for West Hennepin Community Services and Mary Perkins,
who is the Executive Director of West Hennepin Community Services to come and talk to us
about their consortium that they have and explain some of the details of how that could work for
us. As being a part of this special recreation services so. Give you a chance to ask questions
afterwards.
Mary Perkins: I'm Mary Perkins. I'm the Director of West Hennepin and we heard a couple of
months ago from Dawn that there might be an interest here in working in a collaborative way to
provide adaptive recreation services so what I'd like to do is just take a few minutes to explain
what West Hennepin Community Services is and then to focus in on the recreation consortium
and describe how it works and then how the different parties play a role. West Hennepin
Community Services is a non-profit organization. It's located in Hopkins and it's been around
for about 15 years. We work with people with developmental disabilities and their families and
we have a mission that's two fold. Our first mission is to help people be as independent as
possible. And the second is to help people be included in the communities in which they live to
the greatest extent possible. Developmental disabilities is kind of a broad base term that covers
lots of different syndromes and conditions, and I have a handout here that describes the major
kinds of things that developmental disabilities covers and that will describe to you our basic
population. West Hennepin is a community support program so we like to help people with
many facets of their lives in a holistic kind of way. We have a counseling service. We have a
licensed psychologist that does individual family and group work. We have an outreach service.
We have outreach workers who go out and locate isolated people and families and help them
with basic assistance and hook them up with services. We have an education in field training
service. We have trainers that go out into people's apartments and train them in basic living
skills so that they can live independently. We provide empowerment and support groups. We try
to be a place where people can gather and meet others with similar challenges and learn how to
advocate for themselves and get what they believe they need in the community. We do have the
large therapeutic recreation program. That is our largest service and by far the most popular
service. My background is social work but I can tell you that I've really become a believer in
therapeutic recreation as a very important tool in helping people, both to develop skills to be
included in the community and to develop in many, many ways and I'm a real proponent of
therapeutic recreation. Last year we served about 500 individuals in our recreation department.
We also have an 'inc'lus~ion service. We ray-to not recreate the world as we know it ~for people
with disabilities but help them to use the existing services that the general public uses and so our
9
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
inclusion services help people access lots of different kinds of things~ including park and
recreation service. That's one of the main areas that we work on in our inclusions, but we also
help people hook up with other services like community ed, housing services, transportation, and
the like. We also do information and referrals so if we don't have something people need, we try
to find and steer them to the right place. And lastly we have advocacy so if something doesn't
exist, we try to help people connect with others to advocate for unmet needs. So that's in general
what goes on at West Hennepin~ It's a small organization. We have 10 core staff and we have
between 25 and 50 part time rep assistants that are working at any given time. The summers are
the busiest. If you take a look at our brochure it will give you the overview of the services that
we have. Now the recreation consortium. We have been collaborating with a variety of
municipalities since 1986 to provide adaptive recreation services. But even before we were
around, a number of communities had decided to work together to provide this kind of service.
Collaboration has two basic advantages. One is that you can pool your resources with other
communities and so it's a very cost effective way to go. And secondly, it helps you develop
critical mass. People with disabilities are a small portion of the population and sometimes you
need to get together with other communities to, if you want to have something like an athletic
league that requires some numbers for example. Right now we have 12 towns. 12 municipalities
that we have contracts with. We essentially divide them into two consortiums. We have the
west area consortium that has Hopkins, Minnetonka and St. Louis Park in it. Then we have the
northwest consortium and there's eight northwestern suburbs in northern Hennepin County. New
Hope, Robbinsdale, Crystal, Brooklyn Park, Brooklyn Center, Maple Grove, Golden Valley, did I
forget any? There's eight of them up there. The way the consortions are structured is that we
blend a variety of funding streams together to provide for the service and then we do joint
planning and try to provide programs in each community. The west area consortion for example
last, or this year is about a $54,000.00 program but we've got some county and federal funds that
we can tap into because we are a non-profit organization. Then we do charge fees. All
participants pay fees~ We also use donations from civic and business groups and then our city
contracts and those would be the different revenue streams that we blend together to provide the
program. We use a therapeutic recreation specialist. Barb can tell you a little bit about her
background, to provide the service and she would be the one that would direct, design and
implement the program. The service is essentially a partnership. It's not that you would use us
and then you'd just go home and forget about it. We would work with you, whoever your
contact would be. If it would be Dawn perhaps. Then we would meet with her and she would
play a close role in helping us design the activities. What we do essentially is on this contract,
this is our 1999 contract and it's essentially designing, implementing the program. Hiring the
staff. Training, monitoring, designing the service. Some towns do their own inclusions and so
you can purchase that separately if you want to do your own inclusions. That's certainly a
possibility. Also I want to point out that we do have the support of other staff who can work with
Barb. We have a licensed psychologist. A licensed social worker. A special education teacher
and skilled trainer and client advocates who are also available for consultation to therapeutic
recreation. So we feel like we pull from many disciplines to provide the service. Here's the
contract. You can look that over~ What you guys would need to do is the marketing. You would
need to make sure residents are aware of the service. We're a relatively small organization so we
don't have a big marketing arm. This is for example what the city of Minnetonka puts out. This
is their park and recreation brochure. They've got a page in here called adaptive recreation and
10
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
the programs are listed. This goes to every resident in the city of Minnetonka, which is a
tremendous marketing tool and one that we wouldn't have available to us. We do have a
newsletter. This goes out four times per year but of course you have to call us and get on the
mailing list. Otherwise we wouldn't send one to you. So the marketing, reaching out to your
residents would really be a city responsibility. If you look in here you'll see the different
programs that we're currently offering. We have children's programs. Teen and adults and Barb
can get into a little bit more about that. Then you would provide locations for us as well. You
know gymnasiums, community centers, whatever. Pools. Whatever it is that people want. W
would look to you to help us secure those locations at a no cost, on a no cost basis. And then
whatever other assistance you can give us. If you have supplies or donated equipment that we
can use or connect us with others in your community that might be able to give us
some...wondered how many people with disabilities are in Chanhassen. That's always an
interesting question. I did a little bit of a study for you. You take your population. You can
multiply it by 3%. That will give you a very rough idea. Some people like to use the term 10%,
which is a little bit larger chunk. When you look at special recreational services, not everyone
with a disability needs one. If you have a slight speech impediment, a slight hearing impairment,
you probably would just use general recreation. So I think the 3% is probably a little bit better
way to go in thinking about potential users of a service. We also pulled some special education
numbers and you do have large numbers in the Chaska school system, and I understand that
Minnetonka is also part of your, you have Chaska and Minnetonka schools that you're
~:epresenting so I had just mentioned to Todd that you might want to think about pulling the City
of Chanhassen in because sometimes there's issues about some students being eligible and other
students not being eligible. But that's, anyway this is a little bit ora study. Right now I
think we calculated we have 49 people in our current data base from your area. Do you have any
questions for me? Otherwise I'll turn you over to Barb and she can tell you a little more
specifically.
Howe: You mentioned the revenues. You said fees were part of the, the participant had to pay
that. What if a participant couldn't pay the fee?
Mary Perkins: If a participant cannot pay a fee, it will be waived. That's part of our county
funding on that and our federal Medicaid funding. They do have to contact us though.
Franks: Can you explain a little bit more about, it's $2,000.00 to initiate the contract for the first
year and then after that the change in future years based on usage. Can you explain that process?
Mary Perkins: Yeah. The way I structure the budget is I come up with the total, which this year
was $54,000.00. Then I have my subsidies. I've got Medicaid. I've got county funding. That's
Hennepin County funding but we are interested in approaching Carver County so that might be
an advantage to us. Then we subtract the fees and we get down to a base amount. Then we
charge each town a base and then whatever is left over, whatever remaining amount is left over,
we multiply that times the number of participants. The percent of participants from the prior
year. So if you had 20% of the participants, then you would be charged 20% of the remainder.
This year, just ~to give yrm a rough idea, I think it was, we're at about $2;000:00 for the.City of
Hopkins. $9,000.00 for St. Louis Park and about $20,000.00 for the City of Minnetonka. So
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
they carried the bulk. They had 68% of the participants~ So it varies depending on how many
users you have. In your early years, you're only at 18,000 people. I think Hopkins is at 16,000
so you probably would be similar to Hopkins. Although Fll bet in this community you have a lot
of children and so there might be lots of users. It would be, we'd have to just see.
Lash: So that fee is on top of the fees that people are charged?
Mary Perkins: Yes. Yes.
Lash: That's the city's fees?
Mary Perkins: Right. That would be your contract amount and then individuals pay.
Lash: Chaska's not a part of, Chaska isn't in your.
Mary Perkins: Right in the west we have Hopkins, Minnetonka, and Sto Louis Park.
Hoffman: The City of Chaska is showing a great deal of interest however.
Lash: Yeah, I was thinking Chaska offered something. Somewhere..~
Mary Perkins: There is an adult community ed program. Magnifying abilities. Is that it?
Lash: Yeah.
Mary Perkins: That's for adults and it's under the community ed program and they do have some
recreation.
Lash: But currently now they have nothing for children?
Mary Perkins: No. That is only an adult program. Well let me turn you over to Barb. She can
tell you a little more specifically about the kinds of things that, the kinds of activities.
Barb Lemke: I'm actually a rec programmer that does recreation for people with disabilities so.
We get to the do the fun stuff as all these rec programmers know. I'm going to tell you a little bit
about myself first. Because I would be the contact person from West Hennepin because I'm in
recreation. Actually I'm a certified therapeutic recreation specialist. Basically what that means
is that I'm recognized by a Board to perform recreation for a special population. And those
special populations are considered to be children, people with disabilities, seniors, youth at risk.
Kind of those groups that are kind of you know on the outsides always so that's kind just to give
you a quick overview of kind of what therapeutic recreation is. We get trained to learn how to
program specialized just for those populations. I went to the University of Minnesota and
graduated there with a Bachelors in Therapeutic Recreation through the Park and Rec
Department° I ac~ally'h-ave about 10 years of experience workin'g with people with
developmental disabilities, and you all got the handout on that. Just to kind of classify that. I
12
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
had some experience working with people with physical disabilities. Also with mental illness. I
think that we're starting to see a lot more people diagnosed with different, varying disabilities.
We're seeing a lot of children with emotional and behavioral disorders that people are coming to
and saying we want a special program for them also. So that's just a little bit of a future I think
that's coming. They're going to actually want to be included in their community somehow. One
thing I wanted to mention that with the service we, a big part of also what we can do. We'll
have, I'll go through some of the programs that we have and can program down here. Also the
cities that we work with now really find it, I guess a great asset to have me on the other end of the
phone. Just to be able to pick it up and go Barb, we have this child. Da, da, da. We don't know
what is going on. You know. And I know the programmers in the other cities have used that a
lot. You know saying can you come out and just, can you just come out and watch him or her for
a while. And it's really convenient for them to just give my number to someone who calls and
says you know, do you have this and I can pretty much assess over the phone if you know they fit
into our programming or where they would fit in the best. Also training, and I do a lot of training
for the park staff in the summer. I actually go to the cities and train their park staff on disability
awareness and ! can train anybody on disability awareness or anything that you need at any time.
So that's a real nice asset to have too. Because I'm just on the other side of the line. For
programs. I'm going to, we need to hand out the newsletter. Mary mentioned our newsletter. In
there we have listed all our adaptive recreation programs and when I say adaptive recreation that
,means programs primarily for people with disabilities. I know there's a parent here tonight. One
of my favorite parents. I had to say that. But she made a good point before that children don't
always fit into your regular, you know we can do an inclusion and include a child into regular t-
ball. I'll use that for an example but sometimes that just doesn't always work. Or parents want
them to make friends with kids with other disabilities or whatever their reasoning so we have
adaptive programming. This programming is not closed to people without disabilities though.
And actually in one of the programs, the children's programs, Out and About it's called and
that's a group that actually, it's kind of more of a social group for children and on Saturdays, one
Saturday a month and they'll go to, we like to use community centers. They go swimming
.maybe at the community center you know at one of our communities. Or go to a playland. They
go to you know sliding downhill or something like that and we fully staff that. Whatever the
child's need is. But that program, now I forgot my point... But that program is adaptive but we
have, I know what my point was. We have actually a sibling. He's come along with her sister
who doesn't have a disability and has joined the group. And that's we call, actually it's a fancy
term for it called reverse inclusion. Or reverse mainstreaming. But that's really what you shoot
for. You want, I mean it's open to everyone and she was like wow. That sounds really fun so she
wanted to come. Another children's program that has been popular is gymnastics. What we
would do there is have an instructor that would adapt some of the, the big thing with gymnastics
is getting space, but adapting you know the things that they do. It's basically adapting it.
Understanding the children's needs. Bowling is a big program. Has increased. That's a
Saturday program. And all these children's programs, whatever the needs of the child, we would
support them with a staff ratio. Because sometimes the child needs maybe one staff just to keep
an eye on him or her or to help assist them. And when I say an assistant, I guess I think of it this
way. Is when you break an arm or break a leg I guess more often, is you need a crutch or maybe
a w~neelc'hair to get arount] or something like that. This is what the staff would do. Especially
with an inclusion. They would help that child to participate whatever they would need. So it
13
Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 26, 1999
may be just explaining instructions. Again, maybe you know if you've got a group of 30 children
and you know your coach is telling them instructions or your instructor, he might, or she might
miss part of the instructions so they would help to explain them maybe again or you know things
like that. So I kind of like to describe it like that. But with Out and About again, if we needed 6
staff for 5 children, you know we would provide that because our goal again is to get these
children into the community and to doing things. And actually to make friends. A lot of our kids
don't have a lot of real close friends and it's a nice thing for them. Teenagers. We have all the
categories covered. Teenagers are getting to be a real growing group. Since Fve been there I
know that our Teen Explorer Group, which is a social group. Social groups are really very, very
important. They're very, there's real high attendance. Again they see that as their place to go
and to be with their friends. And it can be real simple things. This is a sample of, once they
register and they fill out the registration form and they would get this in the mail with all these
activities...and we use different venues in the community. Again space. We would use a
community center room and have, what did we have last week? Wacky Olympic Night. You
know things like that. And I've been learning, it doesn't have to be real, real fancy. They just
like to get together like any other teenagers and just have a good time. We staff it. And the
number one thing parents are after is that it's a safe environment and that they have fun and make
friends. That's all parents ask from us so it's a pretty easy job in that way. We have bowling for
teenagers and then in the summer we have softball. And that has grown also. I would think
there'd be a lot of teenagers down here. I know Carol's got a teenager coming up so. I've been
around and I've seen some kids now and they're all teenagers so. With our adults. Our adult
population is the biggest population that we serve in number wise. We have actually three social
groups with our adults. We actually on Wednesday evenings we serve about, I've got about 65
people that we serve in two different social groups. One up in Crystal at the community center
and then one more in the Minnetonka/Hopkins/St. Louis Park area. Again, it's the same, I've got
some fliers here with different activities that we do. It's the same thing. They come every
Wednesday and they do, you know they go sledding. They're going sledding tomorrow night and
somebody's going to tour a radio station. And then we have a Saturday evening program that is
called On the Town that is a fairly new program. We had some consumers, participants come up
to us and say, and we're very you know in touch. We want to hear what people have to say and
then develop programs from that. If that's what they want. There were a group of individuals,
primarily adults. Some that may live independent. Some independently in the community have
real high skills. Some may even drive. You know take buses independently and things. And
they wanted to go out on Saturday nights, just like all other young adults did so we developed
this program. We actually only have one staff that goes because everyone is able to take care of
all their own needs out in the community and to monitor their own behavior and things and we
have all those guidelines. You know I set all those up and things. But that's a really popular
program. We actually have about 25 people that are signed up for that also. And we also just got
a new transportation grant. Mary didn't mention that but we're also working on transporting.
Transportation for people with disabilities is a huge issue. We have all these wonderful things
but we have people that can't get there because they either don't drive or Metro doesn't go out to
their area or it does, but it only goes out until 7:00 and there's all these issues~ So we've got
actually a grant from Met Council to do some transportation to some of our, especially our social
groups and some e~lucationa] and athletics. I'm going to pass a book around. This actually has
some pictures in of some of our groups. People having fun. With athletics we actually
14
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
collaborate in our athletic programs with Hammer Residence, which is a group home agency over
in Wayzata. They have a rec and a volunteer coordinator and they provide staff and volunteer at
athletic leagues and we do all the administrative part and then the YMCA through Ridgedale
YMCA also provides some staff and volunteers also. Our softball league, we actually have 140
people that play softball. We have about 12 teams in the summer on two different nights. And
then in basketball we have 120 people that play on two different nights. And that's growing too.
We actually had, I had like 20 people on one team. Switching them every 5 minutes to, and
that's primarily run by volunteers and coached so that is very successful and there's definitely
room for more growth there. We have bowling. I should say this. Our programs run 9 weeks.
So when we say a quarter, it runs 9 weeks in a row° We actually have 80 people that bowl on
Saturdays and that's every 9 weeks and that's throughout the year. So that's a lot of bowlers and
they're really good bowlers. They're a lot better than I am. And then we have dances once a
month, which is actually a favorite of mine because I'm at every dance and we average around 80
people for that once a month and that's a real big social time too. And again, a lot of people will
go to, they don't go to everything but they'll go to, they'll either be really involved in athletics or
come to the dances or come to social programs and things like that. And then I'll just say
something about inclusions. We, our big inclusions are in the summer for playgrounds. That's
primarily when we do, because obviously children are out, but we can do inclusions and again
that would meet the child's need at an area playground. Depending on the need of the child, we
may you know have 1 staff for 3 children depending on their need. But I know parents are very,
they're very appreciative of that service because it's very nice that they can get out and play with
children in their neighborhood. And then this last summer we had some teen centers that we had
started. And that was really popular also. We have again teens don't have any place to go.
There were a couple teen centers that we tapped into in St. Louis Park and in Maple Grove and
we had an inclusion facilitator there that would help include teenagers into that soo I think that's
all I have. Questions? I know I was getting a little long but.
Franks: So the transportation for Chanhassen residents, that would be open to adults and
children or? I'm looking at some of the events probably would be planned in St. Louis Park or
Hopkins or Minnetonka. Is it their responsibility to get to these events.'?
Barb Lemke: Yeah. If you would contract us, they would be able to use our service.
Franks: Transportation service?
Barb Lemke: Yes. You see the cities that are in our consortion, yes.
Franks: That's what I'm wondering. If we were to contract with you, so there'd be a central
pick-up point in Chanhassen or?
Barb Lemke: No, they'd actually go to their home.
Franks: Go right up to their home.
15
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Barb Lemke: Yeah. With Out and About we've done it a little differently. We actually have had
pick-up sites in Maple Grove. The parents, I mean we haven't really, we're starting more with
the adults first. The teen program you know may go there. I don't know yet. We really haven't
examined that part yet.
Mary Perkins: The transportation services is brand new. It just started, it hasn't started.
Actually it's going to start next week so we're just in the process of getting it going but yes, we
would consider coming down to the Chanhassen and picking up. You have to be able to ride
unsupervised. Or provide your own escort. That would be the main limitation. The other thing
about contracting with us is that we would try to provide programs in Chanhassen. And what we
would probably begin with is some kind of a focus group. Relying on some of our current
contacts and talking to people about the kinds of programs that they would want to have, but
we'd definitely do at least a few programs right in Chanhassen.
Franks: And what you'd need from us for that is space.
Mary Perkins: Location, marketing. Any other support you could give. Volunteers. Whatever.
Lash: I might have misunderstood what you said° You'd be starting with adults or you?
Mary Perkins: We'd start with a focus group. And if the focus group said gee, we'd really like
to start with some children° My sense would be children's programming. That would be my
guess but we would look at the focus group. One thing about the organization, we're really grass
roots driven. And we will do what the consumers want us to do. So if they would like us to
begin with children's programming, that would be my guess in this community. And then we
would take a look at~ if there are adults, do you know if you have group homes here for example?
I know Rolling Acres is out here so that's one large residential facility that we could look at for
adults.
Barb Lemke: Also~ what is the name of the community ed.
Mary Perkins: Magnifying Abilities.
Barb Lemke: Yeah, we could also.
Mary Perkins: Connect with them.
Barb Lemke: Connect with them and maybe do some things together because we do do that with
project SOAR which is the adult community ed with disabilities group° Up in Minnetonka,
Hopkins area and we do our dances with them so we might be able to collaborate there. Because
we don't, we're realizing, and I'm sure you know that, you don't want to just duplicate these
services that are, you know we want to overlap and work together and that's what we're all about
SO.
16
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Howe: We need to talk to Chaska maybe too. We should see what they're thinking. We have
nothing now, do we? Nothing? Okay.
Mary Perkins: It'd be nice if Chaska would join too because then you'd have both of those
communities and you wouldn't have that school district split.
Lash: ...the adult program already, it'd be nice to have something... Plus you know the
Community Center is there so if we wanted to have something that obviously could have in
Chaska and we could obviously have... Anyone else with questions? Comments?
Moes: Help me understand now like staffing like function and then looking for volunteers. How
do you do the staffing and then where would volunteers come in? I heard you mention that.
Barb Lemke: We primarily pay part time staff. I don't like to.
Franks: Can I just jump in on that point. That was partly my question too. Would we be
responsible to provide volunteers also?
Barb Lemke: No. We would take care of all the staffing. And when I can say staffing, I mean
volunteers in there. For example my teen group now, I just had some people call up and wanted
to volunteer, which doesn't happen a lot. We don't have a volunteer coordinator. So primarily
with the registration fees, what that pays for is the program has to pay for itself. It will pay for
the staff there. And you know if we can get some volunteers, that would be great. It gets, I have
a lot of contacts with the University of Minnesota Park and Rec Division there and I'll get some
volunteers through there but because I, I don't know. Personally I think with the needs of our
participants and I just think people will stay longer. They're more reliable. ! know that years ago
you started out with volunteers though.
Mary Perkins: Yes we do but you do need paid staff because you do have to have people that are
reliable but if you have contacts, if you have a civic group. If you know of a pool of people who
could assist us, all I'm saying is just give us those contacts and then we try to develop a network.
Barb Lemke: Yeah, and that's why the collaboration with Hammer and the YMCA, they have a
really good base of volunteers that come to the organization so we use them as volunteer coaches
and then I have a couple of paid staff there but that's the whole idea of collaborating. We'll work
that way so.
Franks: Dawn, I just have a quick question. On the back of your information sheet in our packet
you had mentioned that the $2,000.00 was already included in the 1999 budget. I have a hard
time trying to remember exactly what part of the budget that was included. Was that a specific,
Todd?
Hoffman: In recreation programs, 145. Fund 145, recreation programs.
Franks: Did we specifically set that aside?
17
Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 26, 1999
Hoffman: Yes.
Lash: So then it was already...
Hoffman: Yes.
Franks: Well that's what I recall so, okay.
Beitel: I think it was just titled special recreation programs°
Hoffman: And the council talked specifically about it. They questioned us over the variety of
mechanisms which would use, we could utilize to provide these services and that wo'uld be to
hire our own staff° Join a consortion. Contract and at this base level it seems very affordable and
the council agreed with that.
Lash: I'd definitely be interested in...Chaska and Carver County being approached. Any more
discussions?
Moes: The year 2000 cost, that would be based on participation, if I remember you calculation
between Minnetonka, St. Louis Park and Hopkins.
Lash: How far into the year would you be able to give us some kind of an estimate of what it
would be for the following year?
'Mary Perkins: Well the other cities do their budgets in July so I'm usually two years behind. I'm
looking at, you know for the '99 budget I looked at '97 statistics so I do the budgets in May and
June and they're presented in July so, are you on a similar calendar? Do it in the summer? The
budget.
Hoffman: Yeah, we do our budget during the summer but it's a calendar year.
Mary Perkins: On, it's on the calendar year? Okay°
Hoffman: But we start in July and August and September.
Lash: So for us to make our budget we'd have that information by August.
Mary Perkins: Well that would be similar to the other cities. Also, we would have you in a
group and if Dawn were the representative for example then she would come and we meet
quarterly with the cities and interact and get feedback and issues can be addressed four times per
year. And we'd hand out statistics or deal with whatever issues we need too
18
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Moes: So ifI understand correctly, anyone in the consortion would be able to attend this event,
is that correct? Do you ever have a situation where you're looking for a minimum and you don't
reach that minimum? It didn't sound like it, okay.
Barb Lemke: Yeah we have with children's programming. We've offered Karate and then ! had
problems getting an instructor so, that wanted to work with children with disabilities. But for
gymnastics we've had that. We try to make programs and see what happens.
Moes: Okay.
Franks: Sounds good.
Lash: So tonight you're looking for a motion Dawn?
Beitel: Do I just refer you back to the recommendation here?
Lash: Is that what you're looking for?
Beitel: Yes.
Lash: Okay. Is there a motion?
Franks: Well I would move that we enter into a one year agreement with the W.H.C.S. in the
amount of $2,000 to provide special recreation services to our city.
Howe: Call Chaska now? I'd like to talk to Chaska. Can we have staff do that?
Hoffman: Yes. Yeah, we're talking with them now. Tom Redmond, the Director of Parks and
Recreation and Chaska called today and I said I would package up your information and send it
down and then you can follow up with a phone call.
Franks: And I have no problem with Chanhassen being a leader on this one.
Howe: Second.
Franks moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommends
that the City Council enter into a one year agreement with W.H.C.S. in the amount of
$2,000 to provide special recreation services to residents of Chanhassen, which includes
both Carver and Hennepin Counties. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSIDER FOX CHASE/CARVER BEACH PEDESTRIAN TRAIL CONNECTION.
Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item.
19
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: One quick question for you Todd .... was agreed upon. That was prior to development of
the homes there~
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: So people when they bought the lots should have known?
Hoffman: Yeah, it was prior. Was this home built in '86? The Kreisler's home°..
Berg: So it was built in '88?
Moes: Another quick question. Under Option B, which is the construct a trail terminating
Mohawk. What would I guess prevent the usage of where they're currently going now then?
Hoffman: If the property was developed, people would be very hesitant to go down...property
owner~.. They planted trees in the middle of that walkway now.
Moes: Okay.
Hoffman: ~
Lash: Okay, are there other commissioner questions for Todd?
Franks: Todd, is it possible on this 10 foot easement to put in a 10 foot trail?
Hoffman: No,
Franks: So we'd be looking at some kind of an aggregate?
Hoffman: I think we'd want to go the bituminous for the erosion and probably a 6 foot trail that
would not be plowed in the winter...
Franks: But on the southerly segment, that would be a 10 foot? o..Lot 19.
Hoffman: I still think at this point we'd be looking at a 6 foot connectors... They're both, both
connections, both areas have steep grades° This is also a steep grade going down hill...would
have to take measures to...
Audience: But it has to be bituminous?
Hoffman: It doesn't have to be...
Lash: That's all right. We're just asking commissioner questions and then it's for you guys to
come up to the podium bu~t we have to have you on the microphone otherwise the tape recorder
doesn't pick you up.
20
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Moes: So the 6 foot wide trail that was initially, proposed would start from the, I guess you go
back to the first picture which is the stake.
Hoffman: This right here?
Moes: Right. I mean does it start from the stake on the left and go 6 feet in to the right? Is that
how that would be done?
Hoffman: Well the first configuration was done right here...
Moes: So I remember it was 18.3 feet from the stake to the house so we're like 12 feet away
now. Okay.
Lash: Okay. Other commissioner questions? Okay, we'll open it up to the audience then and
I'll ask that you come forward and state your name and address so we have that for the record.
Oh sure. Sorry.
(A video tape presentation was given at this point in the meeting.)
The address here is 764 Lake Point. The purpose of this video is to produce the proverbial a
picture's worth a thousand words. I'm sorry we all have to meet under these circumstances but I
thought this would be particularly helpful. The issue here is a path that is being proposed to be
placed right to the east of the house to access Lotus Lake presumably down this area here. You'll
note that the steep hole that's in the middle, is in the middle of a path that is currently traveled by
many residents and non-residents who like to access the lake through this particular area... Todd
Hoffman has contracted with surveyors, commissioned surveyors rather to identify the
appropriate landmarks of the property line so that we could see just where the proposed path
would go. I think originally project proponents assumed that the pathway would be there and
that is in fact probably where they thought the property line was. As it tums out the property line
is right there. You'll notice the pink flag on the stake and let's see ifI can zoom in. That is
actually the property line and relative to it's relationship to the house, you can begin to see the
house structure there is very, very close. The ski pole that is directly to the right of the marker is
about 5 feet from the pole. A little less than 5 feet, 5 feet actually and that is also where our
improved property begins. That is to say that is where our lawn is. The next ski pole to the right
is 5 feet from the other ski pole. From the property line to the second ski pole you have
approximately 10 feet. As you can see that's smack dab in the middle of our lawn. Now we'll
move down the project a little bit. I've actually only moved in a straight line... To the my left
there s the surveyor's mark and then the two ski poles as I indicated earlier. If you look offinto
the distance you'll see another pole. Another marker by the surveyors. Let's see ifI can zoom in
for you here. And again over to the right you've got the side of the house. We'll walk down a
little closer. Okay, from here you can see the marker offto the left. It's a surveyor's marker with
a pink flag and then as you move to the right you've got the first ski pole, which is about 5 feet
from the surveyor's mark and then the second ski pole is 10 feet fi.om the property tine. in here
you'll note that the second ski pole is just a few feet away from our actual home and it is right
21
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
smack dab in the middle of our grass way to the back yard. This presents quite a problem. The
intended path would be actually to the left of the surveyor's marker° At least that's I think where
people think the path is supposed to go. And then off in the distance to the left there, you can
also see where the surveyor has made another mark. I'm sorry, another mark where in theory the
path would curve around. The property line and the nature of the amount of property that would
be seized by easement, presumably by easement rights is a huge invasion of privacy and an
encroachment upon our dwelling. Originally we were hoping that the pathway would be there.
We all thought it might be but unfortunately it is not. It is on the Hedlund's property. Barb and
Greg Hedlund living to the left of that. So I hope this is a helpful illustration. Let me back up
and give you kind of a broader shot now. So there is the home. You can see the pathway
heading back. Again, more than half of that pathway would be seized through "easement" to put
a path and then over to the left is where most people travel today. Not that we necessarily
approve of that travel but we recognize that folks need to get down that direction. It turns out
again that's all Barb Hedlund, or Greg and Barb Hedlund's property. All things considered, I
find the project unacceptable and unfortunately we will have to do whatever we can to legally
stop any forward momentum on this project. Thank you.
Lash: Okay. We'll open it up. Yes?
Ann Miller: My name is Ann Miller and I live on Fox Path. 6561. I guess I feel sorry that that
happened to you but it seems to me that your realtor or whomever you purchased it from should
have made you aware of where that was. I had the same problem, a similar problem at my house.
On Fox Path. I didn't, ! legally tried to fight it. It was over a different circumstances and I lost
the arbitration but what I want to know is, were you aware of this at all when you purchased your
home? Okay. And I guess if you choose the short route and the Hedlund's agree to do it, to
move the, we abandon Option A and go with Option B, would that be suitable to you without a
legal? Okay. All right. I'll just speak for myself. Only I just wish that there would be access to
the lake for us because I was aware of the easement when I bought the house. That was one thing
my realtor did right and said that we would have lake access through that area.
Barbara Kreisler: I'm Barbara Kreisler, Lot 20. And one of the things on one of the pictures.
This is...I realize there were easements in the plans back in '93 but that was before our house
was even built... So we are, I know there needs to be some type of path but I'm, it's going to take
the value of my home. We're in an upper bracket neighborhood and we have...impact the value?
Will it affect our privacy? When we moved out here we picked a neighborhood where it was...
In the summer you can't see anybody behind us. We have a lot next to us. We have, you know
with the exception 'when there are people traveling that path but when it gets publicized and
people are parking and, I have motorcycles coming up and I have snowmobilers coming up.
We're going to see more of that... I don't mind people walking the yard. I just, I don't want to
lose my whole side yard...I think anybody else in this situation would again.., real clear but the
property line.., one is here and one is here but it really, it cuts over into most of our yard coming
down. It's not, this is the current path coming down where everybody, well it's actually a
walkway because it's commonly used. I also have a trail going all the way down into the
Wegler's property because people'take my lawn area so they don't stop where ~he boulders are
because it's so steep. They follow my yard all the way down this way, right into Mike's back
22
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
yard. So it's really warn down there too from their use. So it really cuts in more of my yard here.
It's not just straight back here. It cuts way into within a couple feet of my four season porch also.
Down the back into Mike Wegler's property. Not just this area but the whole side. People are
coming down here in the summer. All the way down here and I have a worn path in-between
these trees right in the back into Mike's property and we're going to be cutting into and losing all
this lawn all the way to the side and a lot of our front yard. So we can't, I mean when my
husband and I wrote, we feel very strongly about it. Not going through as is because it will
devalue our home. We're in an upper bracket neighborhood and we will take a loss on our home
.and we have...
Chuck Chuva: I'm Chuck Chuva and I live at 6521 Fox Path. In this neighborhood. Fox Chase
neighborhood. The neighbors who live on Lot 20 and own Lot 18 and 19 do in fact have a
beautiful home. I'd say they're gems of the neighborhood. And they've been enjoying relative
privacy back there. And they bought their homes or built their homes with the easement existing,
as you see it here. I think there are a number of folks here present today that would opt not only
for the trail to go through, but also opt for it to curve down as Option A shows to the public area
that is along the lake. I understand the privacy issue. The valuation of the home issue. It's
understandable. Quite frankly when the other homes in the neighborhood were built we were
told as part of our value package, in buying the neighborhood, that there would be someday and
thank you for the trail and park referendum, that this is now happening. That there would be
value for everyone else in the neighborhood too in the form of a trail down to the lake so we're
hopeful that our home values would be enhanced. There's probably 55 homes in that
neighborhood and each one would benefit directly from this trail option. Some solutions to the
privacy issue may be, and I throw this out. Would be to offer the property owners a screen of
sorts. Trees perhaps would enhance the natural beauty of the area. And maybe afford them some
privacy that they deserve there. Snowmobiles passing through is an issue. I think you grasp the
fact that there is a hill. It peaks here and drops down through here. Snowmobilers are apt to
travel this way, up this hill. There is a sight line. A very short sight line at the top of the hill they
.would encounter. I think it's a safety issue so as far as preventing snowmobilers from going
Ihrough there, this rock was put, there's a rock here but maybe it's something...more formible
could be done in the way of a natural barrier or perhaps signage. I would hope signage to keep
snowmobilers from going up and down that path creating a safety hazard. But the strongest I
think recommendation for continuing with Option A, going back down to the beach, is a safety
issue of this trail entering out onto the streets. There are many young children in the
neighborhood who like to go down to the lake. Although probably should have adult
supervision. Sometimes they don't and if they're outletted onto the street there, it definitely is a
safety issue for them. We'd like to see that trail cOntinue straight down to the beach and go into
Carver Park as it's proposed. Carver Beach Park I should say. Also again as another safety
issue. You see there's lighting at the cul-de-sac right here. Street light and I think everyone
involved would like to see some further street lighting, safety type lighting at the other end of this
right here. I don't think it's lit up very well. Mike probably could tell you what kind of lighting
is there. But that area does need to be lit up if there's going to be a trail there and we think there
should be a trail there. And Option A should be the path.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Alex Wagenaar: I'm Alex Wagenaar. 890 Fox Court. I agree really with the previous speaker
wholeheartedly. I think there's a number of issues. They're always difficult and nobody wants a
trail that's really close to their house and this obviously, going back in history, whoever built that
house and [ don't know whether the city approved it or what but if it's too close to the trail, we
knew that before that house was built and somebody built that house there and so that's just
water over the dam now but it's a problem that we should make sure that we avoid in the future.
The trail is very important. We purchased our house and moved in late last year. Just one year
ago. We've been there for a year. And whenever I purchase a house I always look at all, what
the easements of record and what are the covenants and restrictions on the property. That's all
part of what you're buying in a piece of property. And it was clear to me that easement was
there. We went down and inspected the easement a couple of times. Looked at the trail. Made
sure that we could get through to Lotus Lake from that spot before we purchased that house so it
was an important consideration to us and ! think it's a very important amenity to the whole
neighborhood. All the people around there., .when I first came through because you can hardly
ride a bike. Kids ride their bikes through there in the summer and all of a sudden you come over
this hill and there's a huge rock. I mean this rock is permanent. Right smack dab in front of you.
And you have to kind of ease through between the pole and the rock. Now I understand a little
better that that existing path is now where the easement exactly is. I would argue in favor of
Option A. The existing plan for the trail. I do think it's important to put it through. It's
important to have it be safe and it's important that... And the streets there, if we open it into the
street, those streets are like driveways and I don't know what the long term plan is for those
streets but there's no sidewalks. It's not like an improved street...get over to the park from that
point. ! think just in a couple, a few of the comments of some of the things that have come up.
The fact that there are multiple paths through there now indicates that it's high time that we
improve it so we have one improved trail that will avoid this, people going in 3, 4, 5, 6 different
directions~ There were comments about parking and so forth down there. We walk that quite
often. Probably a few times a week at least in the summer in the evening and ! don't think I've
ever noticed anybody parkings That people are coming in and parking in that cul-de-sac to go
through there. It may happen once in a while but I've never noticed it... They live next to it.
They see it more but I walk through there quite frequently and I've never seen that the parking is
a real problem. I just would encourage the city to move forward with the improvement and
provide the path. And provide it in the safest, and in a way that in the long term it's going to be
the most beneficial to the whole neighborhood and the whole area. And I think that would be
Option A, the original plan that was... Thank you very much.
A comment was made that was not picked up on the tape.
Alex Wagenaar: Yeah, I drove around and I walked that path. ! did not do a survey of the
easement to know exactly where it was and I did not know exactly where it was positioned but I
looked on the plat and in the recorded covenant of my property that that easement was there.
And we had heard that there plans to improve ito You know that proverbial one day soon they're
going to fix that up o
Lash: Thank you. Anyone else from 'the audience?
24
~Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Loren Veltkamp: I wasn't going to say anything tonight but I'm here so. I actually live, ! don't
live in Fox Chase. I live over in this direction down this way. Quite a few hundred feet down by
the beach down there.
Berg: Could you state your name for the record please.
Loren Veltkamp: Oh, it's Loren Veltkamp. I'm at 6724 Lotus Trail. Which is where this arrow
comes out on Lotus Trail here. My wife and I have lived there for about 5 years and we've used
this trail actually to get to Christmas Lake, which is totally backwards but when you live on a
lake you've got to go the other direction you know. So we've been walking our dog through
there and I've taken a snowmobile through there a few times too. But first thing I wanted to say
is that the trail is totally accessible the way it is. You know I've never had any trouble using it.
And the people that it borders on here, Hedlunds and Kreisler, you know they are the nicest
people you could ever meet and their houses are beautiful. And I would, you know I do use the
trail but I would almost hate to see that area developed in any way because to put a bituminous
path through there I think would kind of just, it wrecks the scenic beauty of the area and I think it
would wreck their houses too. I would like the Board to consider that. All you would really,
well actually you don't need any trails through there right now because everybody's using them.
Unless there's a safety issue but the kids are going to go through there on their bikes anyway and
,they do and we walk through there all the time. And everybody knows that there's an easement
there so you know they feel free to do it and they know where it is so I don~t really see the need
for any big development there. If you do want to develop it, I'd go very minimally and maybe
just a little 3 foot wide stone path, you know which is more than I can see that you need right
~now. And then maybe just a foot and a half on each person's property because you know what
do you really have there? You have kids riding bikes and you have people walking their dogs
and joggers and beautiful scenic area and also it's getting nicer and nicer in there because all the
people that border this area here have been putting, doing a lot of landscaping and stuff so it just
gets better and better every year. The way they're fixing it up and they have little pine trees in
there and everything and you know a straight bituminous path, does it follow the straight line like
.that too? I mean is it like straight like it shows on the drawing? That would be really huge I
think. I think it'd be, well even a 6 foot wide trail. I don't know. I use the trail. I would be
happy with it just the way it is, you know. It's fine. You know we've never had any trouble
· walking it. You know these people are real nice. And if you want to develop it maybe a 3 foot
wide little stone path or something. You know would be fine for me.
Lash: Any other audience members wishing to address the commission?
Marie Schroeder: Marie Schroeder and I live at 6600 Lotus Trail. And my property is right here,
which I wasn't included as far as lots drawn out which upset me when I got this. I was always
aware of the easement when I moved in there. People use it now. Lots of children fish in my
front yard and we do a lot of clean-up after them. A lot of them using my bathroom. Which I
have not opposed to or complained about or anything. I have pretty much maintained the trail as
far as mowing it. Cutting back trees. I have done that myself. There are some spruce trees along
here that are age& There are some other larger maple trees and when I talked to Todd he said
those were going to be cut down and I really oppose that. To cut down trees to put in a path that
25
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
is useable right now. I'm very sick so I'm having a hard time talking here. I think the trail
should be left just the way it is. It is very, very steep right in here. I can't imagine anybody
walking a baby with a baby stroller down there. Roller blading. That can be very dangerous.
Even riding a bike down this path for a child.' And coming this way it's the same thing here. The
kids have come over there and they have fallen off of their bikes and gotten hurt but I don't
know. I don't know what the solution is but I do own all of this along here and ! think it should
be left just the way it is.
Hoffman: ...down below the hill?
Marie Schroeder: Yeah, and then I have a lot of spruce. Some aged spruce trees° They're
further, they're down by the lake. Down in this area. Right along in here. And then I have two
large maples in my yard, or that are lining my property.
Lash: They'd have to come out because they're too close or they would be damaged during
construction or?
Hoffman: Noo To clarify my statement. If the trees are in the way, we only have 10 fee~ there
and obviously you would be on that side of the 10 feet to stay away from the trees. But if they're
in the way, they'd have to be cut down to manage the trail. Or maintain the trail in a permanent
location. Right now where people walking are inside, outside the easement so it's legal, you're
going to stay within that easement and trees are there, they would have to be removed. But
obviously we're not going to do that unless need be.
Marie Schroeder: ~ °talked to you Todd you said that it would, if we went with this plan here,
that those trees would have to come out°
Hoffman: Well I think we were talking about the trees down below this bilk
Marie Schroeder: Right.
Hoffman: Yeah, and if they're in the easement, this photo doesn't show if they're in the
easement or not. But if they're in the easement°
Marie Schroeder: Well maybe we should get some pictures of those trees because there's a
sumac down there. There's a maple. There's a balsam.
Hoffman: Yeah, there's a tree that the snowmobile trail runs right into...
Marie Schroeder: But they're older trees and they're beautiful trees.
Hoffman: There's not enough room there. You'd have to grade that entire lot out to make that,
just go down over the edge. That's all you can do.
Someone from the audience made a comment.
26
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: If the trees are in the easement, and the trail has to go in the easement, obviously the tree's
in the way. And some, what we're hearing, as far as having an aggregate or wood chip or
anything like that trail, when you've got any kind of a grade going on, we've tried it in other
places. Over up by the other beach. You know the bigger beach or the main beach, or whatever
one you call it. And you just end up with washout every year and you have such a mess and it's
so high maintenance and everything washes all over it, it just doesn't work.
Hoffman: Basically they're grass or bituminous. Leave it as is. Flag stones really lend itself it
tripping points and maintenance is going to be even.
Lash: It's not like putting a little walkway from you know your back porch or back to your
garden. It's a lot, it's high usage and it's long.
Hoffman: ...down that hill.
Lash: Yeah, you know I have to remind you. You have to come up to the podium because you
don't get picked up back there and then our minutes are really incomplete because we can't hear
the question. All we hear is you know.
Tom Ebenreiter: Sorry.
Lash: That's okay.
'Tom Ebenreiter: I'm Tom Ebenreiter. I live at 635 Fox Path and I just, I'm wondering if, it
seems like that's...and I was never aware you could even walk along the part of it's, this part of
it right here. Is that, you've kind of mowed that, back above the garden thing...
An audience member made a comment that was not picked up on the tape.
Tom Ebenreiter: It seems like it's someone's yard so I've always kind of stayed away from it.
So either you've got to really develop this thing and cut some stuffout or leave it as it is pretty
much. Because this right here is pretty eroded the way it is. That's .got, and it's pretty, it's hard
to ride a bike on there without breaking your neck or your bike. So mainly I'm just curious about
what kind of development and how much more usage this would involve. Has anybody taken a
look at how many more people possibly will be cruising through there and if it's going to be, are
there going to be snowmobiles going down Fox Path eventually? I mean what, I'm just curious
as to what the overall affect is going to be beyond just saying it would be nice to have lake
access, which I think everybody agrees on. I'm curious about what the overall long term affect is
as it becomes more popular.
Lash: I don't know that we can predict how many people will now start using it. I mean it's
used now. To me I look at it and I think it's used now. A lot of people use it. A lot of people
want it. 'Right now no one's quite sure where to go and so you know for Lot 2'0, they have kind
of people going all over everywhere because they don't know where to go. Where this will be
27
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
defined and people will know this is the path. This is where I go. If I'm off the path I'm in
somebody's yard and it's clear. Now there may be some people who will see it now who had no
idea before that they could use it. There may be a few in the neighborhood who will pick up on
that. As far as people coming from all over, you know the west suburban area to come and use
that trail probably is not going to happen you know but you may pick up a few more people.
Tom Ebenreiter: Did I hear right that the proposal compromises to do this.9 Leave it where it is
on your property but then forget this as a result of doing that?
Lash: I think there's two plans, options right now. That doesn't mean that we are completely
restricted to only opting for A or B or nothing. I think as a commission once we get all the
comments from you, we're going to open it up and kick around some ideas and direct staff with
some solutions to what could be.
Tom Ebenreiter: So leaving it as it is not one of the two options that was proposed tonight, is
that correct? Because it infringes on your land, right?
Hoffman: Right, and then in the future as Lot 19 is developed, that's going to change the way
people feel about cutting through there as well. Also one thing we should clarify, that these
pedestrian trails are not motorized° Snowmobiles, motorbikes are not allowed on them.
Tom Ebenreiter: And could it be set up so that you can truly keep that from happening?
Hoffman: In what fashion?
Tom Ebenreiter: I don't know°
Hoffman: No, we cannot.
Lash: Neighborhood watch groups.
Tom Ebenreiter: No ! mean you can't put up pylons or something in a way that would actually
keep people from.
Hoffman: The rocks that are utilized there now are for that purpose and we do that in some other
areas but it's.
Lash: And if is was defined, it will keep people from going all over.
Tom Ebenreiter: So you're saying that you can't really keep it as, this part as it is right now
because it is on their property and if it is developed, that causes a problem correct?
Audience: Where we walk now we're not legally allowed to walk there° As I understand it.
Lash: Correct.
28
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Kelli Komru: Kelli Komru, 890 Fox Court. This option on the other side, I thought we had
talked about, if we went with this option we would be helping this property owner by not going
down here and so that we were thinking about moving this over into this lot a little bit more.
Isn't that what.
Hoffman: ...
Kelli Komru: Right. And so that's an option that would make these people maybe a little
happier. Make these people a little happier. Make this person happier and we still have access to
the lake. I don't have small children so I didn't think about having to go out onto the road but
these roads are not heavily traveled.
Audience: ...property owners all the way around happy or is that compromise one that they all
want?
Hoffman: Not the Wegler's. There's a letter. Yeah, no the lot down here. There's a letter that,
some correspondence that came in and the commission has a copy of all these... The top one is
from the Wegler's who live here and their preference is to continue with Option A.
Lash: Okay, anybody else from the audience wishing to? Sure.
Ann Miller: Well I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't like trees but I'm sorry. I'm
sorry, Ann Miller. So I guess I see pros and cons for both sides, as probably most people here do.
But for proposal Option A, I mean originally we all, those of us who purchased homes in the area
didn't, most of us anyway, didn't think that we had easements to the lake where it is shown in
Option A. However, now that time has passed, etc., it would be a shame in choosing Option A.
If we had to take down trees and that sort of thing. I really do believe that. And as far as traffic
goes for small children, the people in Fox Chase have to remember that there is not a sidewalk
anywhere in Fox Chase development. The kids are in the street all the time. Constantly. In fact
our street traffic in the Fox Chase division is much worse than it is over on the other side where
the path would come through so I can't see that being a real issue. And if it would, I like your
idea then of making the trail shorter there but I would still like to see it maybe just maintained by
the city but not really developed. I still don't see why it would need to be a bituminous path.
Lash: Okay. Other residents?
Chuck Nagel: I'm Chuck Nagel. I live at 6340 Fox Path and I was just wondering, we haven't
heard much from the Hedlund's. I think that's, I haven't met you but I was, you're the
Hedlund's? I think several people have pointed out that probably the Option B makes more
people happy for the least evils here. I'm a user so, and I'm not affected by the trail itself but my
impression is that, when it is bad, when it's wet and slippery, that in both cases you're going to
have some problems with grade. I think do we know, is the grade, I haven't used the Option A
grade. My guess -i-s /hat -it's worse. Is ft possible to do any -grade improvement wi-th Option B?
29
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Hoffman: Very little.
Chuck Nagel: You can't take the crest off the hill a little bit there?
Hoffman: Yeah, on the very top you can take that crest out but overall you're still going to have
grades going down. But you could take that first bump .off...
Chuck Nagel: I like the idea of woodchips and whatever and I agree with Jan that it's very
difficult to keep it in place during a downpour. I think you need to do something on the surface
though because I've seen people picking their way down and you know a lot of people go down
on three points and I think it's slippery and maybe not even used in bad weather because of that
so I guess I would support improving the surface in your judgment and support the Option B. I
think it is a good compromise. I met Barbara this afternoon. We were looking and it is, ! would
be unhappy to have that many, I'm comfortable walking through somebody's yard anyway. You
are literally in her back yard. So I think the moving it into Lot 19 is probably the best
compromise in my mind. I don't know why the people in the right hand comer, I didn't read the
letter or haven't seen it. Why did they oppose that?
Hoffman: Just states that.
Chuck Nagel: Are they here?
Hoffman: No, Mike was here and he left.
Lash: I suppose what it would, I mean I'm just guessing but I would imagine their thought is that
people coming down the trail will be coming right out in front of their house...
Chuck Nagel: But the trail, doesn't it empty into Mrs. Schroeder's driveway? I mean the rock is
literally at the end of your driveway, isn't it?
Hoffman: Where the two driveways come together.
Chuck Nagel: So I mean you've got the same problem that they do so I guess, and I agree that
kids that are going down there. I don't think that the traffic isn't that big a problem. Like you
say, I live at the outlet of Fox Path and you guys buy too much furniture. There's tracks coming
in and out of there. Delivery tracks by the dozen coming in and out of there. So I would vote for
Option B I guess. With some trail improvements of some kind.
Lash: Anyone else in the audience wishing to address the commission? I'm curious about the
Hedlund's too. You guys don't have anything you want to share?
Barb Hedlund: I guess my...is we're in the process of talking to a builder and building another
house...best thing for the community but we don't know. We don't know what our driveway's
gOing to have tO~oo
30
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: Would the home be for you or? Okay.
Barb Hedlund: You know we're just in the very beginning stages... I mean we've been very, we
met...
Lash: Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to comment? ...Okay. Then if there are no
further comments.
Audience comment.
Chuck Chuva: One thing no one seems to mention is cost. Obviously B, I think obviously B
would be the least cost so even though I vote for Option A, I see that B would be the least costly
so. But the other thing is, what is the time frame on this being installed?
Hoffman: We don't have a set time frame. Obviously we want, the time frame is based upon
resolving the issue ....
Chuck Chuva: Approval or, okay.
Hoffman: And then we'll move on from there.
Chuck Chuva: Likely if it's approved within the next month or two, would it be done in the
spring or summer?
Hoffman: It'd be during, if it's approved this spring we'll do it during the summer construction.
Lash: Are you changing your vote to B?
Chuck Chuva: No, I still for opt for A.
Hoffman: Just a clarification. That is Option B.
Am~ Miller: I had one more comment.
Alex Wagenaar: Alex Wagenaar. Yeah, I mean I think where the sense of most of us, we want
to have that trail there and you know I think I voted for Option A too but it's not like it's you
know go to the mat on Option A kind of thing. It's we want to be able to use the trail. We want
to build it and we want to do it the most reasonable way that accomplishes that task.
Ann Miller: Ann Miller. The only thing about Option B would be that then it might look to
people who are not living in the neighborhood, like motorized traffic could go through there
because you're connecting a cul-de-sac to a road. So I guess ! would like signs. Something
posted. Little round ones with slashes through that no motorized vehicles or something so that
those people woula'know they could not use motorized vehicles on that short path through there
because that's the only other thing. The other thing is, considering the path systems in
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Chanhassen, where does this path really hook up to as far as you've gone from Carver Beach
Park and then the park system after you've gone through the Fox Chase neighborhood, where
would it hook up to for the future? I mean we wouldn't have to worry if we chose Plan B, but at
some point in time Chanhassen would decide to change this neighborhood.
Hoffman: The only function of this is a connector. ~: It's a connector down to the lake and then
there's the trail around the two parks and then there's a trail farther up that connects the other end
of Carver Beach with Butte Court. These are simply connectors so you can find your way. It is
not intended, it's not mapped. There's no comprehensive plan to build a trail.
Ann Miller: Okay, thank you.
Lash: Other resident comments.
Barbara Kreisler: Barbara Kreisler, Lot 20. One of the things I had mentioned to Todd is I mean
people use it now and he said that there were people that aren't aware that it's there. Wouldn't it
be cheaper just to put up a sign and there are paths all around Carver Beach and they aren't
paved. That take you from the little beach to the big beach and they're used all the time and
they're not paved. I mean couldn't there be something small in a sign. And snowmobilers and
motor, they're still going to use it whether there's sign or not and I see that. A sign isn't going to
do any good. People will still. I am in favor of a path° Does it have to be paved? It's not paved
anywhere along Carver and people use it all the time.
Lash: That's the one that washes out all the time~
Barbara Kreisler: Yeah, but just to put a sign up letting them know that they have. And if we
can come to an agreement on where, I just don't want my, a lot of my yard gone° You know
people do take my yard and they take Barb's property and walk it but to take a large section and
put asphalt, you know I just, leave it as iso Designate a smaller area and put a sign in. It'd be a
lot cheaper.
Kelli Komru: Kelli Komru. The way it is right now is very difficult to bike over. I mean it's
just holes and bumpy and up and down and that's why it would be nice to have the improved
path.
Loren Veltkamp: One more time. Loren Veltkamp. I live on Lotus Trail by the mini beach there
and there's that path that does connect the big beach with the little beach and that path is about 3
feet wide and it's unimproved and it's just flat you know dirt. And we've been living there for 5
years. That path has never washed out. It runs right along side the lake and everybody uses it.
There's kids biking on it and we have everything but Roller blades on this thing and we walk it
every day with the dog .... work~ You know they work for everybody and I don't see why we
can't have more have more ofthemo You know I don't like the idea of going to paving in our
neighborhood. You know the less tar and concrete we have, you know the prettier it is, so.
32
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: Okay, thanks. Anyone else from the audience? Okay, we're going to be closing public
comments now. That means it's our turn. So we'll open it up for commissioner comments.
Mike, we'll start with you down at your end.
Howe: I have a couple. I know many times in my brief tenure on this board we've had people
come before us and complain about trails and it's too close to my property. It's going to invade
my privacy and we've gone out and looked at them and they're 30, 40, 50 feet down a hill. We
know the people. However, I went to see this place tonight and I have never seen again in my
short tenure here a trail that we'd build that would impact people more than this one. I think it's
really too close. Mistakes might have been made by the builder. By the town. By the realtor.
Perhaps by the buyers but I mean that's done. I do see a need for a trail. Some sort of
improvement. I'm glad to see, it seems like compromise seem to be, we're fashioning a
compromise here at some point but I would say, it would seem to be Option B that would be the
best. We'll still get the trail. It depends on the folks with the undevelopable property but we
could eliminate perhaps the run from that or T the trail to the lake. But I think this trail is on top
of these people and I have a problem with that.
Lash: Dave.
Moes: I do see a, I do have a concern actually with the close proximity of the trail, the way it is
currently laid out. Hearing a lot of the comments tonight, I actually applaud and there's a lot of
good ideas there that we could possibly incorporate into a solution here. I'm not quite sure
specifically what would be the appropriate one. I did have a couple thoughts, or concerns
actually. I don't know the degree of the concern of you know parking in the cul-de-sac if it is
fully developed. That would be I think something that we would want to address. I did hear a
few comments on the motorized vehicle access. That does seem to be a concern. I have seen
gates in other areas where people have utilized those to some extent to try and I guess prevent
that sort of activity going on. So I would I guess now be interested in pursuing something along
Option B. However, investigating additional components within that°
Lash: Okay. Rod.
Franks: Todd, ifI can just direct a question to you. Maybe you can give us some help. In more
of an unimproved trail, some of the grass mowed trails that we've had, considering the terrain
that we're dealing with here, along the line of the Option A path. Concerning both of the two
segments. What is the viability of having that type of unimproved surface trail? Just a mowed
trail. Grass trail.
Hoffman: Sure. It all depends on the volume of foot traffic. And so we identify a 3 or a 5 or a 6
foot wide area, grass trail traversing down the hill. If people walk there in volume during wet
times, we're going to lose that turf surface and then we're going to start seeing erosion problems
and issues. The trail that Mr. Veltkamp alludes to, it couldn't grow grass because of the over,
you know the tree story canopy there but it's just dirt. It's dirt and there are some erosion areas
where gullies cut across and that's certainly an option that the commission'can lake a look 'at.
We have very few of those in our system.
33
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Franks: That was my next question.
Hoffman: Yeah, they're very informal. Just neighborhood connectors and there's no perfect
answer. But if we identify a single corridor and people use it, especially as you go down that hill,
it will be prone to erosion and turf damage.
Franks: I'm feeling some sense that some kind of definitive decision needs to be made about
where this trail's going to go. You know, it needs to be marked. People need to know where it's
going to be. They need to know that it's something that is available for them there to use. I'm
sympathetic with the Hedlund's looking to develop their property and not having any idea where
that's going to be and where people are going to be walking, whether along, and what sides.
There may be two sides of their property and where's that going to be so I would really like to
see us as a commission really make some decision here in a reasonably timely fashion, I had
originally, I came into this meeting with a strong feeling towards Option B. The one question I
had, which is one that you brought up was moving with an easement 15 or so into your property.
Will that give you enough room to create a driveway? That's the one piece of the property I
didn't look at as far as the grade or where a driveway would go if you put a house in. So I can
understand you're wanting a little time to work with the builder, developer to see what kind of
viable options that you have° Yet at the same time I can also consider that the easement was
there. It was on the books. 18.4 feet from the line to the house. We'd be looking at developing
approximately a 6 foot trail. Would that trail start right on the line? Todd, is that what we're
considering?
Hoffman: Close to the line. You'd want to be about a foot off there to allow for.
Franks: So we're looking about coming in f~om the line, edge of trail about 6 feet and the city
then is responsible, or has the leeway to upkeep the trail another, if the homeowner wanted to put
up a fence, how much farther from the trail then would they need to be?
Hoffman: That depends. They could go up to about 3 feet from it, as long as we would grant
them an encroachment agreement. You need that free space.
Franks: So about 3 feet from the edge of the trail.
Hoffman: Correct.
Franks: So we're looking at the best case scenario 10 feet, which is going to leave about 8, 8 ½
feet or so. My concern is that without developing along with Option A, people are going to
continue to use and go down that lot line down to the lake. They're just going to continue to do
it. I was surprised to hear some of the comments, that some of the residents are okay with that.
That surprised me a little bit. Then if that property's going to be developed, if you do build there
and we don't have anything permanent or no decision is made, it's just going to be that much
harder to make that decision at some point in the future. So those are the things that I'm
considering right now so that's it for me. Thanks.
34
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: Well as everybody's pretty much said it. I agree that the residents of Lot 20, this would
not be a livable situation for them. And unfortunately you know you're the one stuck with it. It's
obviously it's been a long list of errors. I just can't imagine how with people knowing that
easement was there that they built a house that close. And I agree with one of the residents who
said well you know it's water over the dam now but it needs to be looked at as something we
wouldn't want to see happen again. I was kind of wondering if it would be possible for staff to
possibly meet with Hedlund's before we make a decision and just see if we can do some kind of
discussions on either, a little back scratching so when they do come to develop, you know they
would be waived a trail fee or they would be some kind of thing like that. If we were able to get
a little more space along there to fudge some of this over into their area if we chose to go with A.
Or would it be possible to have the trail begin at the easement where it is now but then angle
slightly east so it would be then into Hedlund's property. But wouldn't put any kind of path on
where they would want to put a driveway in the future. Because they'd still have the same
frontage across the street. I agree with Rod that I think that people will continue to use that
easement connector down to the lake, but maybe a good compromise is to go with B and people
who are on bikes and strollers and wagons and stuff can always use the street if they need a
smooth surface and people who are walking or don't need a smooth surface would know, you
know if Mr. Schroeder mows it and people know that they can use the east connector down there,
and they're okay with that, they could do that. I mean it'd be a compromise both ways. But I,
you know I will agree with all the other commissioners that to put it in Option A along, in that
· .close to Lot 20 is just not doable in my mind at all. So I'd actually like to see us just investigate
it a little bit more before we make a decision and possibly come up with a few other options.
Fred.
Berg: Yeah, I've got a couple things. Maybe address some of the other issues that were brought
up too. I won't kick the dead horse anymore about how close it is on Lot 20. When I was out
there I felt guilty like I was trespassing I was so close to the house. I went on Lot 19 just because
I wasn't sure that I was supposed to be that close to the home° So I can certainly sympathize with
that. ! :think we'd all like to have the developer here right now. Maybe express our concern.
Yeah, whomever. Yeah. Couple things were mentioned that lsd like to just comment on. At the
elbow of the trail, whether it be at, in Plan A or B, I definitely would not be in favor of putting a
light there. I think that that would be, that would really be intrusive for the neighborhood and
might not be something that anybody would really need. I had a question, how far is it Todd
from, in terms of blocks, if we take Option B and go down the hill. If you go Mohawk to Napa,
how far is it to the lake from Napa? Are we talking just another block or so?
Hoffman: Yeah.
Berg: So it's really close?
Hoffman: Yep. Just a rectangle so you take one, the exact opposite measurement.
35
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Berg: Okay, so if you put some signage up that Children in the Neighborhood. Drive Slowly,
whatever. Just to make people aware o£the fact that there may be more traffic. If we were to go
with Option B, that would be a possibility? Signageo
Hoffman: Possibility, yes. Signage requires.
Berg: I know it's not our.
Hoffman: Yep. Regular, specific warrants and I'm not sure that we would meet the warrants for
that type of signage so I'm not going to make that promise.
Berg: Okay. And as far as whether it be bituminous or left as it is, I would much rather leave it
the way it is but it sounds like this is not like other trails. That it is in fact washing away. And if
there are holes and potholes as a couple people are saying, I guess I would be in favor of making
it a bituminous trail. We have done those in other areas and without really destroying the natural
beauty. In many ways enhancing it because we've been able to get so many more people into it
to appreciate it. i think a bituminous opens it up to some people who may otherwise not be able
to use it if we leave it as it is. I'm torn on that one to be perfectly honest with you° I think we
also have to listen to the fact that there are significant numbers of people in the neighborhood
who moved in with the expectation that there would be a trail connector there and ! think we
have to honor that too. ! think we have that obligation. I look at B as being a good compromise,
but I also feel very strongly that some sort of permanent connector has to be there. I can certainly
understand the plight of, or not the plight. The uncertain situation of the owners of Lot 19. Is
there any way to make the trail at the top of the property more narrow and then widen it as it goes
down, further down the hill? So that it's not as intrusive near the home but it widens as we get
further downo So it still provides access for strollers and bikes and whatever, but it doesn't
necessarily have to be the 6 feet or whatever width we're talking about~ More narrow at the top,
you know what I'm saying? And then widens out as we move down.
Hoffman: Yeah. Something that the park industry does not advocate to the fact that once you get
a user on there, at one end they're accustomed to a certain spacing and they align either their
bikes or their users and if they come to the other area where it starts to narrow down, you don't
customarily see that occurring. So if you're going to pick a width, pick 4 feet or 5 feet or 6 feet
and just keep it standard so people know what to expect as they're going up or down hill.
Berg: Okay. That's all I have.
Lash: Okay. Ron.
Roeser: Well I guess I would really lean towards Plan A too. I think part of the charm of that
trail is you go down the hill and walk to the lake. But by going with Plan B you're just taking
everything out of what's nice about that trail and just going straight down a hill onto a road and I
think that takes a lot away from it. It won't be as pleasant to walk by any means or as pleasant to
ride to the beach. I think we have to discuss with the Hedlund's though. I'fwe~re coming that
close to that house, that's really kind of frightening. I know I wouldn't want a trail that close and
36
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
I'm crazy about trails. If we can put this off for a while and discuss it with them, I think that
probably would be the best idea. But blacktopping it seems to me to make the only, is the only
sensible thing to do with it. You can't put woodchips, not on that kind of hill. That's all.
Lash: Okay. Anyone else? Anything you'd like to add?
Franks: Well in the neighborhood that I live in Chanhassen there is kind of a similar situation.
At the end of a cul-de-sac there's a trail head connector and it goes right in-between two houses
and ! doubt that it's more than 6 or 7 feet to each house on either side. I've not heard of that
being a problem but I also have to admit I'm not one of the homeowners. I do have to say that
I'm not swayed by the argument of property value and resale. The argument Barbara that you're
giving that strikes me is the privacy issue which I think is real. But if we're going to go basically
or solely on the affect of your property value, I'd be more inclined to put it through as... even
knowing that this was there. It was there for you to see and you decided to buy property and go
ahead with it. But I think we do need to be sensitive to those privacy issues where we can.
Lash: Anyone else? Okay. Given our indecisiveness at this point, who thinks they'd like to
make a motion? And able to do that.
Roeser: I would table this discussion until, should we go to next meeting or?
Berg: Well, are we willing to table it for a year? I mean it sounds like we might now know for a
year. Are we being responsible by tabling?
Franks: I'm uncomfortable with that I think a little bit. That just seems like we're pushing it out
a little bit too long. What I'm wondering is, ! think tabling is a good idea but to use that time to
really gather some more information. I just don't want to drag this out indefinitely because then
we're going to be the same position.
Howe: Well the key to the compromise is building on the other lot. He has to figure what's
going on there.
Franks: And if there's some initial surveying that could be done to see what types of trees. How
many are going to have to be removed.
Lash: I would think, ifI were the Hedlund's, which I'm not. But ifI were to build on this lot
and just say Option A were to be the one that we voted to go with, I think it would be personally
more amenable to me to have the trail be going a little like this and saving some trees that maybe
would have to be goners and if that meant it came a foot onto my property line, I would rather
save the tree and do that than to have nice trees back there in the easement have to be cut down.
So you know that's the kind of stuffI think that needs to be discussed in a more informal
situation with Todd. You guys can look at the lot lines. Look at all different possibilities and
what you think, if you're going to build there, what you could live with. What you would like to
see happen. An~t you~know preserve the frontage so you wouldn't have to worry about problems
with driveways and those kinds of things that you really can't go back and renegotiate later on.
37
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26~ 1999
So I'd just like to get more information that you can guys can work out. Things you absolutely
could not live with or things that you would be willing to live with as sort of trade-offs for things
that we could offer you. So lad like to get, that's why I would like to table. I'm not really too
interested in tabling it for a year or whatever until.
Roeser.' Can we table it indefinitely.
Lash: Well I think until we get the information. Until they've had an opportunity to really meet
and discuss some of the different things and look into everything. And if that means it doesn't go
in this summer, that wouldn't. You know people have lived without it for years and years. It
wouldn't bother me too much if we went one more summer without it.
Roeser: It probably and would never have come up until someone mentioned it, right?
Hoffman: Correct.
Roeser: Or was it on your schedule?
Hoffman: It wasn't on my schedule. I knew about it buto
Roeser: No...someone reminded us that it was, yeah~
Lash: ...you know everybody's lived and has been using it. I guess I would just suggest that
people try to be a little more refined in how you use it if it's not paved yet this summer so that
people aren't all over everybody else's yard. So given that we need a motion to table° Okay, can
we do that?
Howe: I'll move.
Roeser: I'll second that.
Howe moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission table action on a
pedestrian trail connection at Fox Chase/Carver Beach for further investigation. All voted
in favor, except for two commissioners who opposed. The motion carried with a vote of 4
to2.
Lash: And you will be notified when this is back on the agenda.
The Park and Recreation Commission took a short break at this point.
Lash: Okay, we'll reconvene now and Mayor Mancino wishes to address the commission°
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. very much. It's past my bedtime. You guys go really late as a
commission. The City Council doesn't go this late and we don"t have all this commotion going
on. We're pretty quiet right now so. Why I stopped by tonight is that the, later this week and let
38
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
me hand this out. The city will be mailing to all the residents and businesses the 1999 Strategic
Plan and so I thought I'd introduce it to you. You will be getting it probably the beginning of
next week. Let me keep one copy...I'11 give you a minute to look at it and give it to staff. We're
pretty excited about it to actually get it printed and to get it out there. Why don't I give you a
minute.just to read the letter. Look it over a minute. To give you a little bit of background.
Context for the strategic plan. In 1996 when I was on the Planning Commission...Chaska, etc.
around us had strategic plans that they...
(Mayor Mancino was not speaking into a microphone so her comments were not picked up
on tape.)
Berg: Nancy, under quality amenities, the action steps. The second one, develop implementation
plans. Is that, you would envision that as where we would talk about maintaining the parks we
already have? Adding things to those existing parks, etc.?
Mayor Mancino: Yes, it could be. And again that's what we're going to...
Berg: Because it seems like that's a real important step because this council obviously isn't
always going to be here. And for the future people to know.
Mayor Mancino: And hopefully this plan will be looked at every yearoo~
Roeser: Are you going to have some kind of public hearings on this thing or discussions about it
are you just depending on people to give you their ideas?
Mayor Mancino: Well one of the things under community involvement is going to be talking
about how we are going to get that feedback...
Roeser: Nice brochure.
Franks: ...In the letter it says Chanhassen has grown to a city of remarkable diversity. I'm
wondering what kind of diversity we're talking about.
Mayor Mancino: How we've grown?
Franks: Into a city of remarkable diversity. It seems like a pretty homogenous kind of city. But I
work in downtown Minneapolis but when I come here I think this is about as homogenous as.
Roeser: Yeah, diversity might not be the best.
Franks: ...as any city can get.
Mayor Mancino: Well...
Franks: We have upper bracket homes and less upper bracket homeso
39
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Mayor Mancino: We have a lot rnore..~
Franks: I'm just wondering. There might be a lot of people who are going to read remarkable
diversity and.
Lash: So you're not really saying cultural diversity.
Mayor Mancino: Or ethnic diversity.
Lash: Right. That's not your.
Mayor Mancino: I mean diversity of..o
Lash: It used to be all farmers.
Roeser: We've got one farmer. Legler's?
Hoffman: Degler~s.
Roeser: Degler's, yeah.
Franks: When you're talking about a customer service approach serving Chanhassen, I'm
assuming that will pertain to us too. So when...work with as a body to determine what that
customer approach will be or will there be some more like mission statement ideals that we're to
.go along and follow that we'll receive from the council or?
Mayor Mancino:
Franks: And to review cost benefits of city services. We're involved in providing a lot of city
services... Is there going to be some, I'm assuming that we're going to have to make some cost
benefit analysis here as a body so we can provide the council with accurate recommendations of
what we believe.. ~about how to go about doing ito
Mayor Mancino:..~
Franks: ...do like work sessions or joint sessions between council and commissions to kind of
get these things out on the table or to feel them out or to learn what they are or is there some
method...
Roeser: So we're all in the same page.
Lash: Same page~
Franks: I don't want to have that happen again.
40
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Mayor Mancino: ! think what the council...
Berg: Yeah, define some parameters as to what exactly the relationship is so we don't have a
Coulter Boulevard again. You know what our input is going to be and what we can expect in
terms of how our input is going to be listened to.
Mayor Mancino: Probably...
Berg: Okay. I would agree. I would agree.
Franks: I'd like to nominate Todd for a key contributor award in the recognized efforts of
committee... So when the nomination forms come out, make sure you send me one.
Mayor Mancino::..
AN AMENDMENT TO THE CITY CODEI SECTION 20-913(O)~ LIGHTING TO
REGULATE THE HEIGHT~ SPACING AND TYPE OF LIGHT FIXTURES.
Cynthia Kirchoff presented the staff report on this item and asked for feedback from the
commission.
Lash: For the ones over at Lake Ann, we're saying the ones over there would they meet this or
they would not meet this?
Hoffman: They'd meet the height standards.
Lash: Yeah, but not the 90, what was the other part of it?
Kirchoff: The 90 degree shielding.
Lash: Yeah.
Hoffman: Yeah, no.
Lash: Well we wouldn't have to replace the lights.at Lake Ann?
Kirchoff: No.
Howe: The lights at Bandimere are going to.
Roeser: What about Bandimere then?
Ho~fman': Yeah, we can'meet this.
41
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: Oh, and we provide.
Franks: 65 feet will be okay fbr what we're going to be doing at Bandimere?
Hoffman: You bet.
Lash: And 90, okay.
Hoffman: Yep, no problem.
Franks: What's the height at Lake Susan?
Roeser: There aren't any park lights.
Hoffman: The Rec Center. And those are shorter than that.
Roeser: Yeah, they're not 65 feet.
Lash: Okay. So these won't impact us really?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: We can do everything, light everything the way we need and it's no problem.
Hoffman: Yeah. A consultant would be retained to go ahead and package the product for any
future ballfield lightings that the commission would recommend and then we would hand this
ordinance over to them which we feel is reasonable° I've reviewed it with Cindy and they would
meet it.
Lash: Do you need a motion or is this just information?
Hoffman: Yep. Need a motion for you to accept it.
Lash: Okay. Is there a motion to accept it?
Howe: I move we accept the amendment to the lighting ordinance as proposed by staff.
Lash: Okay, is there a second?
Roeser: Second~
Howe moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
approval of the amendment to Section 20-1 Definitions, to include definitions of glare,
photometrics and shielded light fixture and Section 20-913. Lighting, to regulate the
42
/'ark and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
height, spacing and type of fixtures as included in Attachment 1. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
Lash: Okay the next one, establish 1999 commission goals.
Hoffman: Could we go to 9 for Susan please?
Lash: Oh sure.
RECREATION CENTER: CHILDCARE REPORT AND MONTHLY REPORT.
Marek: I have a report to hand out, how about if I do that right now. Back in August you may
remember a particularly lengthy meeting regarding a child care issue out at the rec center. The
concern is that we continued to have a large revenue shortfall in that program. In fact the amount
of $17,000.00 was cited. The commission at that time gave the approval for the rec center to
continue our child care program but try to make changes to make it at least a break even venture.
Immediate action was taken in September with a change in some of our procedures and policies
and our staffing plan. And I'd like to call your attention to the top of page 2. That summarizes
our revenue situation right now. Please note that the time periods are not consistent in each of
:those four lines. You can see the loss that we've had over the first three time periods. From
,when we began in April, '96 through August of '98. That encompasses the first three lines in
-Ihat table. That total is approximately $17,000.00 and that was the loss that was reported in
August. Since we made the changes in September, over the last four months you see that we've
.come out slightly on the positive side at $591.00. So with a little bit of intensive management we
were able .to change our situation and make this at least a break even event. It was my obligation
to report to you our performance on this and we're pretty pleased about that. There are a few
conditions that we would need to follow in continuing our child care program out at the rec
center. A staff wage of $8.00 to $10.00 would keep us in line with breaking even. We need to
have the weekly number of children between 55 and 60. If we fall below 55, we lose money. If
we get above 60, we have too many children for the staff available. So it's a fine balancing act
that we have to have to maintain our break even venture. Again, with a little monitoring of the
situation I feel that we could do that. At this point I am. recommending that we continue the child
care program at the rec center. We certainly accept the responsibility for operating at or above
break even. It is important that we all recognize the revenue deficits of operations prior to
September, 1998 will not be recovered.
Roeser: I believe that.
Marek: Unfortunately.
Lash: This is great Susan. You guys have done a fabulous job. °.whole situation.
Marek: It was a disaster°
Lash: This is just great.
43
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Franks: The way yoWve figured out the net gains~..that you have not added in, the punches that
have not been used although you've collected that revenue.
Marek: Correct, and I address that in that paragraph right underneath the table. And what I want
to say here, it might be easier for me to explain it verbally than work with the works here. We
have punch cards that we sell for child care. The punch cards sales occurred in our past child
care program as well as in our current child care program. When we went into this period of
change at the beginning of September, we carried over unused punches from prior to that. Just as
my cut off in December, we're carrying unused punches forward. Now, I know that I'm making
an assumption here but basically our child care use hasn't changed a whole lot and I'm assuming
that those outstanding punches we had going into it equal the outstanding punches we still have
leaving this time period so essentially they wash. Now I know exactly how many unused
punches I have right now. And that equals $663.00 worth of service. What I don't have is the
number we actually carried over from August. So I am making that assumption and it's
important to realize that.
Lash: Even if you didn't carry anything over, it's still pretty close...
Marek: It's still pretty close to break even~
Moes: But for clarification, the $663.00 is in the $2,512.00 revenue number.
Marek: Yes it is.
Moes: Okay.
Lash: How do you know those punches are for child care and not for something else?
Marek: It's a separate card that we sell and it's attached to the registration form for each family.
Lash: Okay, so it's not the regular...
Marek: Correct. We do have currently 88 families registered that use our child care program.
Lash: I think this is great. I would of course like to continue to get updates...commission needs
to give Susan direction on how often we'd like to have an update just to make sure that this is
staying viable.
Moes: I would like to see it mid year. Six months, right. I think you've done an excellent job
here. Some of the programs that you've instituted, you know if they were this successful we
could probably leverage them in other areas as well so that sort of information sharing is very
beneficial.
Lash: I'd be comfortable with six months.
44
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Marek: Yeah, the change in seasons will be significant for us because we do experience quite a
decrease in usage over the summer and we'll have to adjust staff accordingly.
Lash: ...June, December or some kind of schedule like that?
Marek: Sure.
Moes: I think yeah, like results through June. The first six months, or July or August. Whatever
is possible to get the information together I think would be great°
Lash: Well we at least keep control so we don't, it doesn't end up getting so far. If it starts to
decline.
Marek: And we do have issues that come up. For example we just lost our child care
coordinator. She did give notice and so we are recruiting and depending on our ability to find a
replacement staff, you know we may have a time period where we're not in operation' so those
things will come up.
:Lash: Okay, can we move on to item (b) then. Monthly report.
Marek: Great. Item (b), the monthly report. This should be pretty short as well. We had a focus
!on health program out at the rec center. We had booths in the lobby. We had people staffing
them. Mr. Franks got some nutrition consultations.
Franks: He is a nutritional guru. If you have a chance to talk to him.
Marek: This lady, Chere Bork, licensed nutritionist, she actually is going to be offering a
nutrition programs in our spring newsletter so yeah, I really want to try to continue that
.relationship with her. We had personal trainers in the lobby. People getting their body fat
.measured right there in the lobby. It was just real fun. In any case it was a real promotional kind
of thing for us and our clients and it was our first try at it and I think it went okay. You may have
heard of the medical emergency that we had at the rec center on January 11th. And I just wanted
to point out that the rec center staff behaved appropriately. Did everything they could and the
emergency proceeded as smoothly as possible under the circumstances. By coincidence that
same week we had scheduled recertification in CPR for our staff.
Lash: You already had that scheduled?
Marek: We scheduled it back in early November and the incident occurred on January 11th. A
gentleman had a heart attack in the lobby of the rec center. Just sort of slumped over in a chair
and was quite unnoticeable until someone did notice that he hadn't been moving for a while and
took his pulse and one of our patrons actually was a medical professional and administered CPR
wh~e staff called fhe ambulance and worked with the other people in the lobby in keeping~them
back. So yeah, we had CPR training on January 12th and the 16th. Other than that, our programs
45
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
are running fairly smoothly out at the rec center. We don't have any big news there. We do have
some new progrmns coming up in spring° Those of you who are interested in a real kick into the
summer season. We're going to be offering a 6 week boot camp class. Out of the warming
house. This is a 6 week intensive fitness program. Anyway, I think Todd has talked with me
about having one of the goals out at the rec center be better utilization of that building that we
have out there and this would be one opportunity to get another use for that building. A mostly
outdoor activity with a small amount of shelter needed so that will be our first attempt out there.
Lash: Do we use that for Dynamites and stuff in the summer?
Hoffman: Yes.
Lash: Okay.
Marek: That's it for me.
Lash: Okay. Thanks Susan~
Marek: I appreciate your deviation from schedule.
ESTABLISH 1999 COMMISSION GOALS.
Hoffinan: Would you like to consider making that a take home assignment?
Lash: Yeah.
Hoffman: Bring it back at the next meeting.
1999 LAKE ANN BEACH CONTRACT.
Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item and asked for questions.
Moes: Just on Exhibit B I was just looking at the differences between like Tonka Bay,
Chanhassen, and Excelsior. And like the scheduled life guard hours. Are we just, Lake Ann, I
mean when I look at Tonka Bay and if I'm thinking of the right beach, it's by Tonka Bay Marina.
I mean is that the one? And they seem to have that staffed rather regularly as well and we just
have it more at Lake Ann.
Ruegemer: The hours may be different than ours. Is what I'm guessing~ Just assuming. Making
that assumption.
Hoffman: Number of lifeguards as well.
Moes: Pardon?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Moes:
Lash: Okay, moving on.
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash:
Berg:
Lash:
Moes:
Hoffman: We have the largest beach in the system and they provide the most lifeguards per
hour.
Lash: Well and they give swim lessons too. Do they give swim lessons there?
Hoffman: Yes. Well I think it's separate on the contract.
Berg: I'm surprised we're bigger than Excelsior. But I guess we are.
Moes: So do we have multiple lifeguards on duty then at Lake Ann?
Hoffman: Yes.
Moes: I unfortunately don't get there often.
Lash: Like 3 or 4 aren't there?
Oh. Answers that question. Thank you.
Oh, we need a motion then, right?
Okay. Can we get a motion to approve this agreement?
So moved.
Is there a second?
Second.
Berg moved, Moes seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the
Agreement for Summer Lifeguard Services at Lake Ann Beach for 1999 as provided by
Minnetonka Community Education and Services. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
RECREATION REPORTS:
1999 FEBRUARY FESTIVAL.
Ruegemer: Plans are ongoing. We're coming up on that fast, February 6th. I do have the
volunteer sign up sheet here. I have signage for each and every one of you. We can talk
individual or everybody can just raise their hand. I can write you down.
Roeser: I sure would like to but I have a full day's rehearsal.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Howe: I want a good costume this time.
Lash: We don't need to wear costumes for this.
Howe: Oh that's right...
Berg: I can work but I have to leave early so maybe you want to have a different emcee. I can't
be there at the end. ! have to leave about 2:00 or 2:30.
Ruegemer: Okay. Maybe I'll put at fishing ticket sales.
Moes: I've got to watch my kids.
Ruegemer: Rod Franks, emcee.
Franks:
Roeser:
Franks:
I can'to I've got to watch...
Oh man° I'm not even going to tell you why...
He entered another fishing contest°
Can I get back to you so I can check at home to see what hours I'll be available.
Ruegemer: Yep.
Franks: Actually we're leaving for a cruise the next day. See I told you, I didn't want to tell you°
Berg: Oooh. Does that mean you live in an upper bracket home too and your property value...
Lash: Back on track here.
Ruegemer: ...probably noon for you~
Lash: Noonish, okay.
Ruegemer: Noon for you. Mike, do you want to work?
Howe: I'll do something, sure.
Ruegemer: Okay~
Roeser: IfI can get there, I would come but I911 seeo oo Well we usually start at noon and go til
4:00 on that weekend before the show goes on soo
Ruegemer: Okay° ~I~'yoxt want to help with fishing ticket sales until like t':307
48
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Roeser: What?
Ruegemer: Would you want to help out with fishing sales or something? Tickets.
Roeser: If I can get there. I'm just not sure exactly when.
Ruegemer: Oh, okay. I'll put you down as a question mark.
Lash: What am I supposed to be doing?
Ruegemer: I'm going to have you on the prize board.
Lash: Okay, user friendly?
Hoffman: No, it's user friendly.
Ruegemer: We'll explain it. Emcee's just, 12:30ish. 12:30 to 3:30.
Hoffman: Anybody who's done Eastern Onions can do emceeing...
~Ruegemer: Basically what it is, it's just announcing general announcements.
Franks: So it's 12:30 to 3:30?
'Ruegemer: Yeah.
Franks: Can I give you a call?
Ruegemer: Yeah.
Berg: He's allowed to do on the ice interviews.
Lash: Do you have what you need there Jer?
Ruegemer: Yeah.
Moes: Do you have like a couple hour slots or one hour slots? Because I've got to figure out,
I've got a basketball schedule coming out here too.
Ruegemer: I can, do you want me to put you down for fishing ticket sales. You come at like
11:30, quarter to 12:00 and work for an hour or two°
Ho£fman: Early or late? You pick it.
Moes: Let me get back. I mean I just, but if it's like 11:30 to 1:00 or?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Ruegemer: 12:30 to 1:30 or 1:30 to 3:00 but earlier is the more crucial time...
Moes: ...extended basketball program and I don't have that schedule yet and they play strictly
on Saturdays so, coaching for that is what is called a conflict.
Ruegemer: Yeah, I'll be in touch with you individually too.
Franks: Are kids involved in the ice fishing too?
Lash: Sure, yeah.
Franks: How do the parents participate with the children if they don't have a fishing license? Do
they need to have a fishing license to participate with their kids?
Ruegemer: If they're fishing they do.
Franks: No, but I mean.
Ruegemer: If they're not fishing.
Lash: Now wait a minute. Isn't that what the guy from the DNR, that's what he got the big
ticket for.
Hoffman: He got busted for fishing. He had a fishing pole in his hand. The kid had a fishing
pole in his hand°°.
Roeser: Do they check fishing licenses at all?
Hoffman: They come down there and they say hello and they do good will things.
Roeser: Yeah, they don't fuss with that.
Ruegemer: They're not crappie cops.
There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.
PARK & TRAIL MAINTENANCE.
Hoffman: We've made the reports a little bit more comprehensive due to the fact that we're
going to change city managers around here. We've got just a lot of things going on that we want
to make sure that people are aware of what we've got going on and so it's purely information.
To let you and others know what's going on in those particular areas of the department.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: Well and I can understand where that would be pretty frustrating if you went out and
cleared the trail and then a plow comes down the county road and dumps it all back in there.
Hoffman: Happens all the time.
Lash: Is there, at some point should we just tell them to quit trying to keep it clear and wait til
spring?
Hoffrnan: Well that's what, we get accolades and compliments on many occasions for keeping
the trails open through the winter so that's...
Roeser: A lot of people use them. They're walking all over the place.
Lash: Yeah, but at some point you know we keep walking on them and it's packed down and
you can walk on them.
Roeser: And they're slippery then too.
Franks: Keep that TH 101 trail clear.
Hoffrnan: It hasn't been as clear as some of the others but they'll keeping on it though.
Lash: Okay, so we'll move on to administrative.
ADMINISTRATIVE:
A. SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK BOAT ACCESS GATE HOUSE.
Hoffinan: This is a decision that needs to be discussed. The South Lotus Lake gate house still
sits there. Last year we did not have a gate attendants within that building or working out of that
location. And so as a department in this city we need to decide what the future of that facility is.
And the three obvious ones that came to my mind is dispose of the gate house and the program.
Or just ignore it and leave the gate house intact and don't hire attendants for a while. Or leave
the gate house intact and continue to hire attendants.
Roeser: Wasn't the idea to keep milfoil out of the lake?
Hoffman: No. The original idea was the fact that it was a very long and drawn out and very
emotional argument about putting in access on the lake. And the agreement at that time was that
this thing would be gated and that there would be specific hours. 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.. But
then that was proven unconstitutional by the Department of Natural Resources. You can't gate
the place. So then the gate went away so we still had attendants there to manage the parking lot.
So only, we only supplied this amount of parking and you could manage that and then when they
parked illegally, fhe gate attendant was to call the Carver County 'Sheriff. We~used to staff'this
thing from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. seven days a week which was really a great investment to be
51
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
made and so through attrition we've gone back and back and back and. The potential hazard here
is that those people that are out there that remember this thing, if yOU officially close out the
program it could become very emotional again. Say hey folks, we still remember when this thing
went in and the city made the obligation at that time to staffit. That's the reason we brought it
back here. We're just not going to pick the gate house up and take it away because it's a public
issue that needs some public discussion before we do this.
Lash: I'd say go with number
Berg: That's what I think.
Lash: Just leave it there~ If problems crop up, we can always, you know... Taking the house out
is just going to draw a bunch of attention and irate people so.
Moes: How much activity is there with the significant influx ofmilfoil?
Ruegemer: The South Lotus Lake is pretty much milfoil infested now.°°
B. 1998 COMMISSIONER ATTENDANCE RECORD.
C. SCHEDULE OF ATTENDANCE - 1999 CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS.
Lash: Now if our attendance is requested, you would contact us, right?
Hoffman: Right.
Lash: We do not have to go unless we're contacted° Okay? Anybody know right now that you
have a conflict with any of these?
Moes: Wait, can I go back to the City Council meeting. I'm not familiar with that.
Lash: Oh. This is the dates that you, if there was a park and rec issue that we needed
representation for, that would be your night to be on call. So if you're needed Todd would call
you and say you're needed for the meeting.
Moes: I do need to make one correction on the work phone on this. It's 837-1607.
Hoffman: Where'd we get that other one?
Moes:
Lash:
Berg:
That was from the work change mid-June.
Okay. And if you look at that we got our terms. Mike, Rom
Mike's up?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Roeser: I didn't even look at that.
Hoffman: Yeah, and as soon as I can know the better. Because it's always a real issue on how
the council's going to handle it.
Lash: Ron, are you re-upping?
Roeser: No, I'm not going to re-up.
Lash: Mike?
Howe: Yes I'll be here.
Lash: I probably will be too.
Roeser: I said six years. I'm just like Paul Wellstone. Six years and that's it.
Lash: Term limitation.
D. SNOWMOBILE/PEDESTRIAN TRAIL CONFLICTS.
Howe: Has it been more aggravated this year?
Hoffman: Yes.
Lash: We've had more snow this year.
Howe: I haven't had as much time...cram it all in the last month but.° .lot more incidences.
Hoffman: And the new trails.
Lash: Well we had hardly any snow last year.
Franks: And we're not supposed to have any motorized traffic on those pedestrian trails.
Lash: Well just think of the wear and tear on them.
Franks: ...until August.
Roeser: If they bring those studs back, I think we have to look at snowmobiles again next fall.
Lash: They did bring them back. They already approved them.
Roeser: 'Well ~no, 'I drm ~tl-hink they did.. :vo~ed 'on.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Franks: The House voted on it and passed it.
Roeser: The Senate hasn't passed it yet though. But I don't know if you want studs on that
Bluff Creek trail down there. You're going to get grooves. Have you ever seen what it does to
them? I mean it's like a ditch in the spring. If you bike those trails.
Franks: Do they have any right like within the easement of the trail to snowmobile along the
trail?
Hoffman: They have a right to be in the ditch line. But they cross the trails and the proximity to
the two and there's just not enough ditch. They have the right to be there, and that's why when I
talk to the snowmobile club I say you know, people we've got to be coming up with some
compromises here and they're saying you what Todd. Our back's up against the wall. There's
no place to compromise. The trail wants to be there. We want to be there. And until somebody
tells us no, we're going to be there° And the way to control it with the city is to have ordinances
prohibiting snowmobiling in certain areas because they can snowmobile in the county ditches.
They can snowmobile in the state ditches. And then they can snowmobile on city streets by
ordinance.
Roeser: In accessing them, going in and out~ right. They can't be going up and down the streets.
Hoffman: Accessing the trails, they can go on the streets. Yeah, they can't be riding up and
down the street.
Lash: Well we haven't...no motorized vehicles on trails. That's already there. I think it's a
matter of education and enforcement. So how do we do the education? I think a timely article in
the paper now would certainly be appropriate~
Howe: This guy, I think it's probably, as it typically is, it's probably a small group of people
who are doing it. And it looks like they really are thumbing their noses at any authority. If you
read this guy's story, this is a terrible story. I feel sorry for this guy. And they chased them down
and the snowmobile club tried to talk to them and they didn't even care that he talked to them so
it's going to be this element who aren't going to listen to you anyway. It's a small group of
people. I don't know what you can do.
Lash: Well and we have no idea if they're from Chanhassen or where they're from. If they're
out along Highway 7, chances are they're going or coming from somewhere off of Minnetonka
and you know, they could be coming from out west. Or they could be coming from Shorewood.
Who knows where they're coming from°
Hoffman: If you take a look, Highway 7 and Powers Boulevard itself, those are both very bad.
They're not good situations. You have motorized snowmobiles at 30, 40, 50 mph utilizing the
same path that pedestrians are using. Snowmobile club recognizes it but they're going to
continue to sign it until somebody shoves them out of there. And that's our obligation to say yes
or no. This is where it starts and then it's up to the city council after that.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Roeser: Did that letter go to the city council?
Hoffman: That letter is Minutes from the city council meeting.
Franks: The one thing we could do is the city can pass ordinances to prohibit snowmobile traffic
on particular streets. So we could identify those problem areas like Powers Boulevard and make
a recommendation and the city could endorse it. But then they have no way to access those trails.
Hoffman: You know you look around, Eden Prairie has no snowmobiling anywhere. Chaska has
snowmobiling on one.
Roeser: One street through town.
Hoffman: One street through town and then you have to get to it and it's just a matter of time.
When you take these rural ditch sections, which are just rural ditches and people have been
snowmobiling forever. And then now we're plopping trails, pedestrians and they're going,
everybody knew we were in trouble. Especially on Highway 7 and Galpin and Powers° Right
now they're snowmobiling on the gravel trail on Powers because there's no pedestrians there.
We're not plowing it and they're utilizing that ditch. They just love it. Next year they'll most
likely all move to the other side and that's what the people...feared. They didn't want the trail
but now they're going to get the snowmobilers. So at least there they have an option. On
Highway 7 they don't want to cross. They all come up out of Chanhassen. They're trying to get
west and they don't want to cross but the snowmobile club admitted, if that's the only choice
they have is to cross, they'll cross Highway 7.
Roeser: Highway 5 was just a zoo last, was it Saturday? I drove to Waconia and back and there
was no snow left anymore. They were driving through, just going through this mud all along TH
5. I mean just huge patches of mud. It looked like they were looking for snow. You know they
have to go through the swamp to get out of the mud. It was unbelievable.
Hoffman: That's a heavily used trail.
Roeser: It's too bad.
Lash: Okay, do we have an opinion on this issue? What do you want us to do?
Hoffman: Well I'm going to be meeting with Todd Gerhardt and Ken Durr and if you want us to
represent a position of the commission, we'll go do that. Otherwise, we'll just continue to
flounder.
Lash: Well how about some, in the particularly troublesome areas, how about signage? No
snowmobiling on pedestrian trails.
Hoffrnan: It's there.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Lash: Is there signage there already?
Hoffman: Oh yeah.
Roeser: I don't think there's much you can do this year anymore.
Hoffman: No, it's not...
Roeser: I think you've got to let it slide til, yeah.
Hoffman: We need to talk about it when you're in the middle of it because otherwise you forget
about it and you never talk about it before next year starts again.
Howe: Put it on the June...
Berg: And just let him know we're talking about eliminating it altogethero
Roeser: I think it's going to happen°
Franks: ...but I think it's coming. They're not going to be happy, snowmobilers are not going to
be happy to have that access eliminated.
Roeser: They're staying pretty well on the trail at Lake Ann. They don't seem to be, they're not
tearing all over it like they used to. You know you'd always see these trails all over the park.
It's not happening°
Franks: We can't spend the kind of money, citizen money that we spend on trails and their
upkeep and then just have them mined by studded tracks on snowmobiles and have pedestrian
safety endangered. I mean that's just not acceptable.
Hoffman: There will be damage on all the trails that we just built this year...
1999 PARK AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT BUDGET.
Hoffman: I wanted to bring that to your attention because there has been some significant
changes since it was last discussed and passed on to the city council by the commission. Areas
which were originally scheduled to be budgeted improvements, we're talking general terms.
Lake Ann reconstruction, $150,000.00 that we recommended come out of the general fund.
They're recommending, in fact they've approved that it come out of the fund 410. And so
generally what you, and once the details are printed I'll bring it to you° What you're generally
seeing is all of those issues that at least philosophically we attempted to argue are maintenance
items, they took those out of any general fund budget and put them into Fund 410o And so
reconstruction of Lake Ann Road, irrigation timing mechanisms, even fertilizer for Bandimere
Park for this year. You have soccer goals. A variety of things they've taken out of there. Either
56
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
deleted altogether or put into Fund 410. And so generally what we're doing is we're spending
down 410 again and I argued my points against that but the council again did approve those
expenditures out of 410 so if we move forward with those projects, 410 is taking a hit of
approximately $200,000.00 that it would not when you last saw the budget leave your direction.
Lash: So they can just do this without you know checking back with us?
Hoffman: At their discretion, sure.
Lash: So our park and trail acquisition and development fund should now be called acquisition,
development and maintenance.
Berg: Does this come under cost effective quality services or quality amenities I wonder.
Hoffman: I'm not sure.
Berg: This is a great strategic plan.
Lash: This is an item for our joint meeting°
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash: This is the first item. Because we purposely, purposefully made our budget with a
philosophy in mind that we were going to be trying to not take on any big ticket items and bank
roll the money so that we could do some of these other bigger things and they have just now
taken every cent away from us basically that we wanted to try and do to save. You know we
figured we were saving money with the referendum so we could tackle some of those other
.things and they just took it away.
Hoffman: You'll also notice changes in the reserve° The reserve for Lake Ann Park expansion
was deleted and City Center playground equipment was deleted.
Lash: Why do we bother making a budget?
Hoffman: The recommendation from the park commission. Your joint meeting will most likely
be in March.
Lash: Well why don't we just ask them to give us the budget next time and we'll try to work
around it.
Berg: And maybe the Mayor can explain what an emily is. Is it something that happens every
month or is it something that happens just once?
Lash: And may~oe ~they can explain what it means to encourage and recomme-nd volunteers.
57
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
Howe: Make that meeting in early March if you could. I'd like to be there.
COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS:
Lash: Okay. we have any commission member committee reports?
Howe: The race committee didn't...
Hoffman: But you got the green light if you read the packet°
Lash: Very nice. Dave, are you on any committees?
Moes: No.
Lash: Okay...
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATION:
Roeser: What's the story on dogs in Lake Ann park? Are they banned entirely or what?
Hoffman: Except on the trail if you're walking through the park. And they're supposed to be on
a leash.
Roeser: I just wanted, and I never thought I'd speak up for dogs but it seems to me that during
the off season of the beach and stuff, if we almost could have dogs out there. But they've got to
be on a leash and on the trail? You can't walk them around?
Hoffman: That's current policy, correct~
Roeser: A lot of them out there. Lot of people breaking the law out there.
Hoffman: Well once they get on the lake they can run all they want. Yeah, we're not out there
actively enforcing it during the winter.
Lash: They don't bother too many people. That's mostly who's there in the winter.
Roeser: Yeah, no I don't think in the winter time at all they bother people. It's not a good deal.
Hoffman: Loren's dog comes and sees me every time I'm down there at Carver Beach.
Lash: Any other commissioner presentations?
Franks: I just have one thing, and I know that it's late and this just kind of comes through the
back door but, it's fli'ffie'u~ ~for me noVto be*thinking about what's been happening with the
Public Safety Commission and not deny or for me anyway accept having an impact on what I'm
58
.Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
doing here. And having a feeling like that as far as the rest of the city is concerned, that's not
'happening and yet we're a citizen commission just like they were a citizen commission and all of
a sudden they're not a citizen commission, or they are. They don't know. And I'm thinking well
what does that mean for us as a citizen commission and where do we fit into that whole picture.
And I know that we may not get a lot of resolutions from the council and the mayor on exactly
what's happening there. Maybe that's not our position to get that but I think it is having an
impact on what we're doing, at least I know I carry that with me whenever I come to a meeting or
get that packet in the mail. And I would just like to hear from each of you if that's a topic that
we need to bring up as a discussion or if we are concerned about that as a body. To let the
council know that we are concerned about that so they can discuss with us what our position is.
Where they see us as a body. Or...if this is just my personal issue and if so I'll pursue that
personal issue. One of the thoughts that came to my mind, if it is an issue for this whole
commission, is to look at putting together some kind of resolution and maybe that would go
concurrent with our goals about how, what we see as our value and why we're doing what we're
doing so they can certainly have that information.
Lash: And with what we just looked at with our budget. We're a commission and we're
supposed to make recommendations and supposed to have some of the, I don't want to say the
bigger picture. They're supposed to have the bigger picture but we're supposed to have a little
:'bit more narrow picture of what we would like to do and how we think we can accomplish that
with the budget and then to have the budget come back to us in a totally foreign form makes it
difficult to try and do the job that we thought we were going to try to do. So you know this is an
example I think of lack of communication and Rod brought that up earlier. How are we going to
· communicate what we're talking about when you said how will we communicate that. That was
with the strategic plan. You know how can we have strategic plan, how can we as a commission
make goals when we do that and then all of a sudden the rug gets pulled out from under you.
And then our goal, I'll go a step further with Rod to say I'm a little on the paranoid side now that
if we do speak up and say, you know this causes frustration and this causes, you know Fred
brought up the Coulter Boulevard thing. That sounds like that's supposed to be a non-issue
anymore. That kind of stuff just doesn't go away and if you bring it up, will we all of a sudden
either be not reappointed or will we be dissolved as a commission because we're not agreeing
with.
Berg: Or almost worst, just ignored.
Roeser: I think they'd have a hard time dissolving a commission°
Berg: I must admit when the Mayor's here I'm a little more guarded in what I say. Because I
don't know what she's thinking about us any more.
Howe: Well I think everybody knows that this, and we have two new members now on the
council but I mean they're very cost focused and the business side of me respects that. But then I
think.about, we talk about this many an evening over a cold one° How do you put a value on
who' s using your park antl what, you 'can't'put a number on that. That's an intangible-that you
59
Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
never could put a number on so they're trying to put a business, I've always thought government
does things for people. Government's not meant to make a profit. It's not here to make a profit.
Roeser: Government isn't a business.
Howe: No, it's not. And I think it's very hard with something like parks to try to make it a
business. You're not going to get anywhere with it. So I have a problem with that. If you're
going to cost benefit everything we do, you're going to come up empty.handed and it's going to
be a worthless statistics in my mind.
Lash: My feeling philosophically like we are not on the same page. And it's, I don't feel
productive because you just don't know if you can move forward or you can't move forward and
I feel like the trust relationship is, has been violated partly because of what's happened with the
public safety commission. I don't know how effective we can be because it's hard to...
Howe: We have to do our jobs and we're still doing our jobs.
Franks: I'd like, if I could, propose a resolution. Maybe I could just read what I've prepared and
see if there's any discussion on it. My resolution would be as follows for our commission. As a
commission we are concerned about recent developments in the management of Chanhassen and
the impact these developments may have on the level of direct citizen participation in the
govemings of our city. We the citizen members of the Park and Recreation Commission resolve
to support and encourage the volunteer commission process as an important component for the
healthy management of our community. With professional staff support, this commission will
continue to provide the public with an approachable forum. The resulting reason council offered
the recommendations will enhance the quality of decision making process from which we will all
benefit.
Roeser: What you're saying is you're supporting the public safety commission more or less.
Franks: That the decision to have or not have the public safety commission is not mine. What
I'm supporting is what we do in our commission process.
Roeser: But if I were a council person I would read that as kind of a shot at the need for
dispensing with the public safety commission. I wouldn't read that as a, I don't know what.
Franks: Well...and I know that this is just my own thinking so I didn't consider this to be an end
result. I really wanted to hear what everybody else had to say so we could maybe put something
together in a resolution form that was, really spoke for us as a body. If that's possible, and
maybe that's not possible.
Howe: Well I respect your fire brand tactics. But I think you've got two new members. I think
Linda Jansen is a friend of ours I would consider now. I think you wait and just see where things
shake out. See howthese new people work on this. I think they realize the people who have
been there on the council, that we have an idea and there's been something missing. Going back
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting - January 26, 1999
to Coulter Boulevard. I don't think it's a surprise if they didn't think that. They'd have to think
that.
Hoffman: I don't know how you can put it into the mix but I believe it's next Monday's work
session where they're going to talk about reorganization and I know I don't believe that work
session's going to fit in the courtyard conference room so there's probably going to be downstairs
here to have the ability to house the people who are interested in that work session. And that
may be a time for either people as residents or commission members to participate.
Roeser: Are they aware, the council is aware that they've stirred up a hornet's nest. They must
be, right?
Hoffman: That's for them to say.
Roeser: I don't know, I think it will shake itself out. I really think it will work itself out
eventually.
Lash: Well I'd have to think it'd be pretty obvious to them that we support the commission
process.
Roeser: 'I don't think Nancy could win an election right now.
Berg: I-s ,this off the record I hope?
Lash: No, we're on the record. But we, yeah. But obviously we support the commission process
for this city. We're on a commission. We support that. And I value this process and I hate to
see it being upset with what happened. I think if all ora sudden there were some type of turmoil
or some kind of an issue or whatever created all this, I don't know but if it happened to us, I
would be feeling that our role here isn't valued and isn't necessarily and someone else can do it
when our role here as a citizen is important and I think in every area where we have a
commission, to have that citizen input is important. I don't know if, how much more formally
we need to state that to the council other than the fact that we're on a commission. Obviously we
think that is a valuable contribution to how this city operates. And you know I don't know if we
need to say it to them formally that we think it's important. Or just by our action of being here
they can figure that out. I don't know.
Berg: I'd like to see some vehicle that we can get some feedback from them that they in fact do
support what we're doing. They're our council members on the city council right now that I have
never once, yeah I understand. I have never once heard a couple city council people ever say that
they valued or listened to what we said. And when you get the budget...
There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ January 26, 1999
Lash: I think this could be some conversation for our work session too. When, if this is our first
item, it can be a lead in to some of these feelings that I think some of us are sharing here. And by
the time we meet, maybe there will be some resolutions to some of the turmoil that's going on.
Franks: It would be a sorry thing in my opinion that if we were operating, whether we were
conscience about it or not, with some sense that if we didn't make the right recommendation or
say the right thing or do the right thing that some unknown terrible thing would happen to us as a
body or as individuals and we might not be consciously aware of doing, that and still be operating
with that process at the same time so part of my goal too is to really kind of name that, if it is in
fact something that might be going on and to kind of really get that out and that needs to be
looked at. Because that is also a management issue. So [ wanted to throw that out. I had no idea
really what the rest of you were all interested in doing about that but I just wanted to put that out
there so at least we could open it up for discussion to see if there was something we wanted to do
or not.
Hoffman: As a group you do not wish to send a resolution, then your other avenues again I think
are to attend public meetings that the city council holds or to wait until their scheduled joint
meeting with you which will occur I think in March. Or to speak with individual members of the
council.
Lash: Okay. Anyone else have any commission member presentations?
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET:
Lash: Do we have anything under the administrative packet?
Franks: I just want to say that I'm choosing then not to make a motion 'to move; 'forward on the
resolution at this time after hearing that comment from the rest of the commissions
Lash: Okay, thanks Todd. Anybody have anything on the administrative section? Okay, Todd
you don't have anything else?
Hoffman: No.
Lash: Okay, is there a motion to adjourn?
,Franks moved, Berg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:15 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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