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BOARD OF REVIEW 2004 04 12CHANHASSEN BOARD OF REVIEW AND EQUALIZATION REGULAR MEETING APRIL 12, 2004 Mayor Furlong called the meeting to order at 6:30 p.m. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Furlong, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Ayotte, Councilman Lundquist, and Councilman Peterson STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Justin Miller, and Roger Knutson PUBLIC PRESENT: Name Address PID Number Michael Janikas Melinda Giordano Nancy Mancino Terry Nelson Paul Lidstone 6368 Oxbow Bend 7603 Huron Avenue 6620 Galpin Boulevard 161 South Shore Court 3991 Country Oaks Drive R25.8090140 R25.3500190 R25.5590020 R25.8010060 Mayor Furlong: I'd like to start I think with just a report. We've got representatives from the Carver County Assessor's office here. Good evening. Angie Johnson: I'm Angie Johnson, the Carver County Assessor. Along with me is my staff, Steve Clay, our senior appraiser who does the city of Chanhassen. Also Renee Bensco and Sandra Drummer who will be starting in the city of Chanhassen. Bill Effertz from Hennepin County is here representing the parcels for Hennepin County. Just like to give you a little bit review of what happened this past year. Of course our values are always based on what's happened as of January 2nd of every year. We run a 12 month sales study which starts the first of October and goes through the end of September of the prior year to tell us what's happening for our valuations for January 2nd for 2004. This past year we had 484 residential sales and our sales ratio, our median which comes through the Department of Revenue was 86.4. Basically our overall residential increase in the city of Chanhassen came to 10.6 percent, and this doesn't mean that all the properties went up 10.6 percent. It's just that that was the average of the property. According to statutes we physically inspect properties once every 5 years and so we divide our, the city of Chanhassen into neighborhoods and inspect one fifth of the properties every year. Our commercial industrial, we did have 11 sales. Most of the sales were of properties under 30,000 square feet. City of Chanhassen basically is showing really not an increase whatsoever because the large industrial properties actually decreased in values this past year, even though the smaller properties could have went up as much as 30 percent. But when you have the larger ones decreasing, the little ones when they go up even 30 percent doesn't really show much of an increase. Our apartments increased 14 percent and all of our other properties which mostly includes our Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 ag properties increased 59 percent. And this larger increase on the ag properties were mostly due to sales of land that is going to be developed. It's ag land but can be developed and our sales are ranging for the past 3 years anywhere from $50,000 to $484,000 an acre. We're averaging right now on those properties $65,000 an acre. So basically for attending the local Board of Review, of course we request the people to mostly first contact our assessor's office so that if there is any questions and that, we can get them answered beforehand and we can bring the information to you. We did have 3 formal requests and ! have handed out those that our office has reviewed for your information tonight. A physical inspection does need to be made of the properties for the, either the local board or the county board to make any changes that would benefit the property owner. So we can also hear anybody else that's here tonight that hasn't contacted our office but if these are the only appeals, we've already made our recommendations and that and it will be up to the board whether you want to go ahead with our recommendations tonight and we could finalize out the board tonight. Is there any questions that the board might have? Mayor Furlong: Questions for Ms. Johnson. Have you conducted the inspections for each of these 3? Angie Johnson: Yes we have. Those are our recommendations there. And we've been talk about them as, you know we go through them. I'm not sure if the property owners are all here for those 3 properties or not. ! do believe two of them are here for sure. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Councilman Labatt: Angie can you just explain why the commercial industrial only went up 28 percent? Angie Johnson: Well like ! said, our sales, even though we had 11 sales, they were all, most of the properties were 12,000 square feet or less, and this is in the whole county. And not just in Chanhassen. But commercial, large commercial industrial, especially the one with 100,000 square feet and above, basically because of the economy and that has been showing drastic decreases. They've been increasing this past year probably around 10 percent and so when they're decreasing their $10 million property which is increasing a $10,000 property, that's why it's showing part of... Mayor Furlong: Other questions? With regard to these 3 that you handed out, have you had a chance to, if I'm reading these correctly, the one was adjusted for the Huron, 7603 Huron, and was adjusted. Have you had a chance to follow up with the property owner and are they in agreement on that or ! guess we can hear from them if they're here tonight, but did you have a chance to get back to each of these three? Angie Johnson: Yes we have. We have contacted all 3 property owners. That's why ! said, ! think the two that were recommended no changes are here tonight. ! do not believe the third one is. 2 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Steve Clay: No, Mr. Paulsen had faxed in a request to the city which ! got today. ! was able to go out this afternoon and look at the house. Found some things that needed to be changed on our records. Went back to the office and did that and resulted in a $9,200 reduction. ! gave him a call and we discussed it and he was satisfied with that amount. He was taking his daughter to college tonight so he couldn't be here but he was fine with this change. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright, I guess at this point would it be appropriate to open it up for public comment or property owner comment, is that correct? Steve Clay: ! believe Miss Giordano would like to speak first and get home to her child. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Good evening. Please, please state your name and address for the record. Melinda Giordano: I didn't know I was actually going to have to do this so, not exactly the most comfortable, but ! was told, ! guess maybe because ! approached Carver County at a late date, just last week, so ! was kind of basically told ! wouldn't need to appear here to have this, ! wanted to see if ! could just handle this in writing. My address is 7603 Huron. Parcel ID R25.3500190. And I'm just basically arguing the valuation because a couple of reasons. One would be that ! feel the valuation increase in one year seems excessive and also just the valuation increase, if you even look back over the past couple years, we've taken some real large increases as well. But if you look at it, so a whole span of maybe like 4 years at least there's been quite dramatic increases, and ! know Chanhassen is certainly increased. ! don't think that like you say, this particular year is the one year that ! really feel it was excessive, because ! don't feel like in one year it could have possibly increased that dramatically. And we're also in an area, a couple blocks from here, and so we're in a little more diverse. It's a lot of the oldest homes around here and so you can't just base everything just on necessarily your neighbors because we have quite a variety of homes you know. Our's was 66. There's quite a few different years, makes, models. It's not like going into some of the newer developments that are a little more standard and they're all right in that $300 range or something. ! think again, and I'm also stating that the improvements made to the home don't warrant the valuation increase so ! think, the other thing ! guess ! just stated is that the property, the maintenance that does need to be done, that we have no curbing on one side. We're actually a corner lot. We do have a little bit of front curbing. It's really poor but ! guess there is curbing and we do not have any side curbing. And so we also have a lot of water problems with the spring. There's a lot of drainage problems so that like the sump pump has to run almost constantly in the spring and also we do get a lot of water pooling in our back yard. Councilman Ayotte: A lot of what ma'am? Melinda Giordano: Water pooling in the spring. We almost have like a totally, almost like a swimming pool at times. It depends on the year obviously but ! do understand that some assessments are going to be put on us to handle some of those problems. ! don't, ! Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 feel a little uninformed so I don't want to state that I'm making this as a quote but I just, talking to some neighbors I understand some assessments are going to be coming up because they do need to do some sewer and drainage work in our area and I just don't feel that we should have the assessments and the valuation increase at the same time. Perhaps once those things are done and the property's up to that par, then after you've paid those assessments, then perhaps the valuation would be more justified. And that's about it. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. I think unless there are questions. One point of clarification Mr. Gerhardt. The utility work that's going to be done in this neighborhood, on Huron and Iroquois and Kiowa, there are no assessments for that utility repair work, if I recall correctly. Melinda Giordano: Is that correct? Mayor Furlong: It's the neighborhood to the north, along Santa Fe that it's for road and utility repairs but the utility repair work that's going to be done in this area is not going to be assessed. It's our expectation that that will be the case, yep. Melinda Giordano: Okay. Well, then I was misinformed about that. Thank you. Mayor Furlong: Okay, so just to clarify that and tell your neighbors too if there's misinformation. We don't need more people. Melinda Giordano: Well and I might have been one block off with my neighbor too. Mayor Furlong: True, exactly. Because Santa Fe is, that's more extensive work. Have you had a chance to talk to the assessor's office with regard to, I'm reading this right here, your proposed adjustment down. Have you talked to them about that? Melinda Giordano: Well when I originally called after I received my, or shortly after I received and got a chance to look at my valuation, I did talk to Steve Clay, Carver County and again, like I say, was just told, I don't think, I guess I was told basically that I would have to come here to do an appeal and he argued about some sale prices. Nice guy, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to, but just about some sale prices and I did say that you know I'm well aware of what's happening in Chanhassen. I've watched the market for years and I just think maybe our neighborhood is being judged on a little bit more of a whole, I mean I'd like to live in some of those neighborhoods too, you know. And I don't know that I think that our's is, I do see a few sales prices that are, and I think what I guess I told him is that perhaps if I were going to sell my home today I could put it up for that price, but perhaps not one little sway, even just perhaps the time of year would even fluctuate that to a certain degree. I know enough about real estate to know that and even if you had to sell in the winter, you know versus the spring, and like I say, just the fluctuation of the homes. There's many different style of homes in our area so. Two story, split entries, ramblers, you know, all different ages so. 4 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Mayor Furlong: Very good. Thank you. Councilman Labatt: Did we clarify what is the numbers? Mayor Furlong: Sure. Just for clarification Ms. Johnson, you're proposing to adjust this from the 205,700. Steve Clay: That was my mistake. I made that... It is 199. We're wanting to keep it the same. Angie Johnson: We're just recommending no change. Mayor Furlong: No change from the preliminary assessment. And what was, is it, and maybe it's in here. What was the assessment in 2003? The last year number. Steve Clay: The increase from last year to this year was 12 percent. The homes in that 200,000 dollar price range have seen very strong market appreciation in the last 2 or 3 years. Councilman Ayotte: Could you talk a little louder or talk into the mic, one or the two. Steve Clay: I'm accused of being soft spoken by everybody but my wife. The homes in that $200,000 price range have seen some fairly significant increases over the past 3 or 4 years and market value is being driven in large part from the.., interest rates that have been out there these past couple years. The fact that so many more people can qualify in that price range and the higher values that a lot of people are looking for homes in that price range. The interest rates are low and the cost of renting a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment when you compare that to what you'd pay in rent and then be able to, or pay for a mortgage and be able to deduct your interest is as much more economical for people to get a home in that price range if they come up with a small down payment. And it's sometimes difficult to convince people that even a 30 year old home is going to be going up in value every year when you haven't done anything to change it really, but the market data ! gave you ! found, if you look at the map here, is subject to 3 sales. They're all within 3 or 4 block area of each other and same section of town. If you look at the photos you can see that those home sales are fairly similar to the subject. Looking at those sale prices and making adjustments for.., such as the size of the home, things like that. It's telling you that she could probably pretty easily sell the house today for around $220,000. So because of that I'm suggesting we leave the current valuation the same. Councilman Ayotte: Can ! ask a few questions now mayor or do you want to wait? Mayor Furlong: No, that's fine. Please. Councilman Ayotte: ! believe you said the average increase was 12 percent. Angie Johnson: 10.6. Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Councilman Ayotte: 10.6. Angie Johnson: Value in 2002 was $167,000 and in 2003 it was $177,100 which was a 6 percent increase only. And ! do believe that that year it probably went up another 10 percent at that time. And then this year it's $199,000 which is a 12 percent increase. So it's a little bit more than average but still within the realms of what we've been increasing properties in Chanhassen. Councilman Ayotte: And a cursory look that I took, that home's the oldest. It's built in '67 ! believe. '66 and it has, the front of the homes have attached garages. This has detached. And ! don't know if you put a valuation on water runoff or the sump running too long, but there's a drawback to that and it is. Steve Clay: Water runoff, no. Or the sump pump running, no. Probably half the homes or more in town here have sump pumps that run on a. Councilman Ayotte: When you went to the home was there any issue with mildew in the lower level? Steve Clay: Not that I remember. Mayor Furlong: Okay, do we want to deal with these one at a time or in total? Is there a preference? Go ahead. I'm open to ideas. Councilman Ayotte: Why don't we just deal with one at a time. Mayor Furlong: One at a time while it's fresh, that's fine. Councilman Ayotte: We get a different environment in each. Todd Gerhardt: You may also want to open this up to the public for anybody else that may want to speak that's here. That may want to contest their valuation. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Todd Gerhardt: Or speak on their issue. Mayor Furlong: Right, and I guess that was my question. Whether we wanted to deal with each property individually or take them all in total. From a timeframe standpoint we're not going to be done at 7:00, I can see that. So we'll need to continue but with maybe for that reason we should get, for people that are here tonight, give them an opportunity to speak. Get it on the record then if we need to address the issues afterwards, if that's alright. Okay. Why don't we open it up for other individuals that wish to come forward. Now, they do not need to speak if they provide written notification, is that correct? Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Todd Gerhardt: That's correct. Mayor Furlong: So, sorry. As soon as you said that, it occurred to me that I didn't give that direction. So that is my fault, I apologize for any inconvenience. But you did very well. With that I'll open it up for additional comments by residents. Sure, please come forward. State your name and address. Paul Lidstone: Hi, my name is Lidstone and I live at 3991 Country Oaks Drive in Chanhassen. Angie Johnson: Did you fill out a... Paul Lidstone: Yes. Councilman Labatt: Paul, what's your last name? Paul Lidstone: Lidstone. L-i-d-s-t-o-n-e. And I actually have a written appeal that I can just turn in. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. If there are others? Nancy Mancino: My name is Nancy Mancino, 6620 Galpin Boulevard, and would you mind if ! sit at the table. ! have a few things in here. Mayor Furlong: That'd be fine. Nancy Mancino: Is that possible? So I have them out in front of me. Thank you very much. I live at, as I said, 6620 Galpin Boulevard and I have lived there for 20 years this year and my concern on my taxes that I just got is the, both the estimated market value increase which is 68.9 percent. Well above the 10.6 percent average and the limited market value or the taxable market value is right around 30 percent. So we're at 70 percent for estimated market value increase, and 30 percent for limited market value increase. And what I'd like to do, you know your home is so private but everything's on the web right now but what I'd like to hand out to you is a chart that shows over the last 10 years both the estimated market value of my property and the taxable market value so you can kind of see graph wise in a visual what happened this year. Councilman Ayotte: Did they find oil on your property? Nancy Mancino: I don't know what they found on our property but something. Anyway, no I just got their letter tonight so I had not read it before. But what it shows is, if you look up at the top is the estimated market values obviously in red and it goes along starting at 94, 95, so it shows you that in 94 our property, the market value went up around 10 percent. 95, 0 percent increase. But it shows a pretty, the red and the green lines are pretty together and they're not straight but you know, they're kind of up and Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 down a little bit. Then all of a sudden you see an increase in the year 2000 and then you can see what's happened for payable 2005. It just goes horrendous. It's devastating really to somebody who's lived on their property for 20 years, has a 1956 home and all of a sudden in one year the estimated market value goes up that much. And I'm sure as you all know that the estimated market value is becoming much more important now. That there will be by the year 2008 payable, which is 2007 taxes, there will be no cap. There will be no limited market value, so you will be paying from your estimated market value. And you know huge increases for a lot of Chanhassens that doesn't even understand that. So, and ! know the agricultural, a lot of agricultural land has gone up, like Angie said this year quite a bit too in this kind of numbers. Huge. Just huge. And it's all in one year so you know my real big concern is the excessiveness of it in one year. And it's not that there weren't properties around us that didn't sell during this time. In the 90's. ! mean you have Highover. You have Longacres. You have Wood Ridge Heights in my area that were selling along this time so this just all of a sudden didn't happen in one year, that there was vacant land selling. ! have another graph but ! think I'll wait on that. And Angie you may want to say something at this point. I'll continue in a minute but go ahead if you'd like to. Angie Johnson: Well ! gave the board the letter along with our recommendations...if the board's had time to read the letter, if they had any questions about it. Nancy Mancino: My other, oh go ahead. Angie Johnson: Just one comment though. Nancy was talking about her house and that. Her house only increased 5 percent in value. Her major increase was the land, and even though she's talking, she is classified residential, she has 20 plus acres and so basically she was treated along with the other land owners that have land to be developed, so basically that's where her huge increase is coming from, along with other types of properties like her' s. Nancy Mancino: Upon further investigation, using the County's web site, one of the things when ! talked to Keith Kern last Friday was that he was saying what they really focused on this year was vacant land and getting those prices up. So what ! did was, ! got on the web and looked at some of the vacant land in Chanhassen and what concerned me with some of what ! found, and that is my land is right now rural residential. That's what the zoning is and it's guided for RSF low density. And when ! went on GIS ! found that on the corner of 41 and 5, that particular piece of property, the southeast corner which is 22 acres, it's market value is $1,000,031 which is lower than my new market value and it is on the corner of office industrial property. And it's a PUD and it's Arboretum Business Park? It is Arboretum Business Park and that particular property, which is 22 acres, is it's market value for payable 95, which is the same as mine, is lower than my residential low density. Upon further investigation, ! went to another parcel in Arboretum Business Park. It is 12.22 acres and it's per acre value, which is taking the estimated market value and dividing it by their acres, is $53,000 an acre where mine is $44,000 an acre on residential. Now office industrial property is valued at $5.00 a square foot if it's on Highway 5. Maybe $4.00 a square foot if it's not on Highway 5. And so Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 that's like $174,000 an acre compared to single family residential. And ! kept finding that with more and more investigating that ! did. That a lot of the agricultural land that's coming into the MUSA in 2005 is right around that 44-50,000 dollar an acre but it's guided for medium density and high density. And it just, it doesn't compute to me. That single family residential, that again has not been, it's just in it's natural state, would be the market value would be the same as some office industrial or medium and high density. And ! can point to another on Highway 5. There's 118 acres just west of Lake Ann Park. It's on West 78th Street. 118 acres which is guided high density and medium density and a little bit of low density, and that market value per acre is $46,000. So ! have some real questions and ! don't feel it's fair. Not only the excessiveness of it in one year, but also when ! look at it compared to other properties and their estimated market value, and again this was just vacant land and that's where ! went to. A lot of the vacant land that is south that is coming into the MUSA, and this has nothing to do with...this is just a personal but some of it is like, you know is estimated market value last year of a million dollars, they're paying $888 in property taxes because they're non-homestead and they're agricultural. And people don't even live on them and they're valued at $1.1 million and they're paying $888 so ! also think this is an area the council should look at. Or it would be wise to ! must say. Because again the non-homestead and those that have farmed in the community for years and years and years and have a homestead on the property is one thing, but those who haven't and who's property will be going to be developed there soon is something else ! think. So any questions or? Mayor Furlong: I guess maybe, Ms. Johnson if you could respond. The two issues at the end there from a summary standpoint that ! heard were the percentage increase in the one year, the 68 percent coming off 04, and then relative to the other parcels that were mentioned. Could you comment on those? And we did get your letter and ! haven't had a chance to read it in detail so, if there's something in there, if you could point me to it or. Angie Johnson: Based ! guess, we'd have to look up the other parcel. ! just looked up one of them that Nancy was talking about and ! came up with $46,543 per acre on that one. A 22 acre site and ! guess ! didn't catch all the other ones, or wasn't sure which other ones she was talking about. Maybe if she wanted to give me that information and we could research it further. We're just saying that based on the information that we were using based on similar site testers and the sales that we had come up with to indicate that we feel that her value is fair market value. Mayor Furlong: One of the issues ! heard too was a difference in agricultural land and our comprehensive plan in terms of future zoning, or guided land use. How does that come into account when you're conducting your assessments and preparing your numbers? Angie Johnson: We take that into account. Basically that's what's increased the value of a lot of the ag land in the area presently. Mayor Furlong: What's that? Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Angie Johnson: Taking your comp plan into account. Mayor Furlong: So you generally then differentiate between what the land is going to be zoned or the comp plan indicates is going to be residential versus perhaps medium density. Angie Johnson: We try to yes. Mayor Furlong: Alright. Are there any other questions? Councilman Ayotte: The big disparity that I heard from Mrs. Mancino is that residential low density is what she's at, and what she referenced was a medium density primarily, and so the difficulty in finding comp's would be a penalty to the resident in this case if we're unable to find a close match. That's just the sense I have and irrespective of all that said, this pretty graphic, it's kind of like we found a need to adjust and to have this sort of adjustment in that short of a period of performance is, seems excessive to me. It just seems. Angie Johnson: Okay, so we run a 12 month field study every year and sometimes in certain types of properties, you don't get a lot of them then all of a sudden like have you know quite a few so that you can really look at them and research them, and on this type of property, you almost have to look at a couple years of sales because they don't always happen overnight. And so that's what we've done is gone back over the last couple years to research these types of properties and yes, we are supposed to be at 100 percent of market value and some years we do have to do an excessive increase just to make sure that we are at market value. Councilman Ayotte: How do you explain the anomaly of residential low density versus medium density? What Mrs. Mancino referenced as being close to her cost line was medium density. Steve Clay: I don't know that there's an anomaly. The one that she's referenced tonight were 3 or 4 commercial or industrial tracts of land which ! don't know why you want to think about them or where you want them because we're not comparing them to industrial land and comparing low density development land, residential development land. If you look at the handout here on the last page, on the map it's highlighting three sales of property that occurred close by here from 2001 to 2002. All three of them were purchased or, and combined smaller lots for purchase and then combined and then developed as low density residential. So they were purchased for that low density residential development, and were in fact developed that way. Start over on the right side of the page, Noecker's development. I'm sure you are familiar with that. That was just probably approved a year or so ago here at the council. It was a purchase of 10.66 acres at $45,540 an acre and currently developed with single family lots which are selling for over $200,000 apiece and that's just the ones that had trees and not a particularly good view. Just to left of that is the stuff that was purchased by Lundgren ! believe. They combined 4 parcels there. If you look at the total purchase price of those parcels it works 10 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 out at $49,000 plus per acre and that was sales in 2001. Over on the far left side of the sheet is another development I'm sure you remember approving recently. It was 21.14 acres that was purchased for $40,000 per acre on September of 2002. It's currently platted. About 2/3 of it was platted with single family low density lots and the other third of it appears to be set aside for wetland purposes. So these are three sales that have not been adjusted for time. You've already got a couple years past and you can easily adjust for time on these. All showing values per acre of land extremely similar to her's. That's what it's worth. The sharp jump in value, the estimated market value that occurred this year, that we were pretty confident that these values were there last year and the year before. We weren't at that time it didn't seem to be in a real hurry to make any big increases because no matter what we increased it at, it was the actual taxes payable was going to be limited by the limited market value to 15 percent or so increase depending on the year we look at. Now a couple things have happened in the last couple of years. One is that we've got more and more sales telling us that for sure that this is what the land's worth. Two, we have all this information on the internet which Ms. Mancino has been using to research her stuff, and everybody else with a computer and internet access is going on, looking to see what these parcels of land are valued at. And here again there's, with limited market value is being phased out now by the State of Minnesota over the next 3 years so it's between those three factors it was decided to go ahead and be more aggressive in actually getting our estimated market values closer to where they actually are. The property owners are still going to be benefiting from more limited increases in market value as she's shown here on the green line, even though our estimated went up 70 percent. The limited market value's going to keep it to about a 30 percent increase in value. Councilman Ayotte: One other question Mayor? Mayor Furlong: Sure. Councilman Ayotte: The percent increase of these other properties that you've referenced, the $40,000, the $45,000 and $49,000, in their growth pattern, have they experienced a comparable complexion? Steve Clay: Well it's hard to say at this point since they've been subdivided. They don't exist as larger properties any more. Nancy Mancino: Can't find them. Steve Clay: These lots develop single family, .3 to .4 acre lots are selling for over $200,000 a piece. If you wanted to work the math there you could come up with an approved value per acre. That still is including cost of development and bringing in roads and sewer and water, so it's difficult to answer your question at this point in time. Mayor Furlong: What sort of percentage increase from year to year did you look at other properties similar to the Mancino property in terms of?. 11 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Steve Clay: Oh yeah. All of the larger acreage parcels. Mayor Furlong: And what was their percentage increase? Steve Clay: Well the larger ones all received values.., changes similar to the Mancino's. Nancy Mancino: Excuse me Mr. Mayor, may ! add something? A lot of those that were agricultural in the southern part of the city won't see an increase because they're agricultural. Meaning even though, and ! certainly really don't want to use names but you know even though there is farm property in the south who's estimated market value went from $1.5 million to $3 million, because they're agricultural they'll still only pay $1,800 worth of taxes. ! mean they're taxable market value is $244,000. ! mean it stays down because it's agriculture and a lot of the properties are like that. But what also really has me concerned is, is that single family residential again is carrying the load when you have office industrial that sells for so much more an acre than single family residential and ! want to understand the disparity between those two. The way the assessors in the market value of these properties that are already zoned and the land is standing there on Highway 5. It's right there and it's on Highway 5 and the price per acre is you know $46,000 to $52,000 an acre. That's the estimated market value. And again, residential is carrying the brunt of the taxes. Mayor Furlong: So there's a, if I understand you, there's a disparity there because of the comp plan guiding land use for those, whether it's residential or. Nancy Mancino: Well I'm not understanding why the assessors aren't taking into, it doesn't seem like to me they are and they may be. I'm not. Mayor Furlong: From what we're hearing is that they are. Nancy Mancino: I'm not an assessor but it doesn't seem like they're taking into account what office industrial land is going for these days. In their estimated new, for 2005 estimated market value. They didn't see the jump that ! saw. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Yes. Councilman Labatt: Angie, we'll just look at the two parcels here that aren't talked about, the Carlson property south of Mancino's. ! don't know if you have that map here, and the Youngquist property. Can you tell us, maybe you can or can't. Did they see similar increases? Steve Clay: Youngquist is, that's just east of Carlson? Councilman Labatt: Yeah, Youngquist is the one fight on 41. Just above Longacres. Steve Clay: The vacant parcel of Carlson is 21 acres went from $317 to $630,000. That's a parcel that ! believe has a good portion of wetland. 12 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Councilman Labatt: Well there's a huge wetland on there, yeah. How about the Youngquist property? Steve Clay: Youngquist is on 417 Councilman Labatt: Yeah, it's a big rectangle just above where ! live. Steve Clay: East side or? Councilman Labatt: East side of 41. Steve Clay: The Youngquist property went last year was at $536,000. Angie Johnson: This is just land only. Steve Clay: Land only. And this year is $1,200,000. Councilman Labatt: And how many acres is that? Angie Johnson: 25.48. Councilman Labatt: And that's pretty much all developable isn't it? There's no lakes or wetlands up there if ! remember right. Angie Johnson: It doesn't appear that way on the map. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Comments. ! guess, unless we want to, certainly if there are additional questions here on this property, ! mean a couple questions that ! heard. Ms. Mancino, you mentioned some properties that Ms. Johnson hadn't had a chance to pick up, so ! think it would make sense to, since this letter that they sent was just dated yesterday and you haven't had. Nancy Mancino: I just got it today. Tonight. Mayor Furlong: Yeah, and you haven't had a chance to respond to them. ! guess we're hearing some information here. ! guess my suggestion would be to give Ms. Mancino the opportunity to at least give her information to Ms. Johnson so they can respond to that. ! guess the other thing in addition to the two properties that we just looked at, Carlson and Youngquist, I'd be interested in similar types of properties around the area, and what their assessed value increases have gone up. ! mean those are two examples that may be similar. Unless the rest of the board thinks differently, it would seem to me give a chance to gather some additional information. We are going to have to continue this hearing to 13 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 out next meeting anyway because of Mr. Lidstone and other's, until they have a chance so if that would make sense to the parties, unless there's, Ms. Johnson. Angie Johnson: Just one comment. ! do believe Nancy was talking more about commercial industrial properties and they are valued differently. We look at sales of commercial industrial properties and value them that way. And that way we're looking at her property as residential land that can be developed and so her's is being looked at separately. And so it's really not comparable to look at, if that's what she's looking at because they will not be similar. So for us to show you properties that are vacant land or with single family home with some acreage that's going to be developed into residential property, that is more accurate. Nancy Mancino: ! also have several samples of those too. Mayor Furlong: Okay. I think for that reason it would make sense, and I understand you know like use and comparable use, and the other thing ! heard though was, is there a different value per use and if there is, if the values are the same for both uses, does that make sense from a consistency standpoint and so that would be my question. Steve Clay: One other thing to consider is, how much developable residential, either medium density or low density land is available on the market in Chanhassen right now? None that ! know of, unless they're out there actively trying to talk people into selling it. As I'm sure there's a lot of commercial industrial properties available for sale or lease, they just can't find anybody that'd like to buy it...! think the market for commercial or industrial properties. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Nancy Mancino: Mr. Mayor, ! have a request. ! will not be in town for the next meeting. Is it possible to do it your first meeting in May? Mayor Furlong: ! know there's a calendar limitation that we're working under. Todd Gerhardt: Well ! would hope that Angie and Nancy Mancino can talk between now and our next meeting and you will also have the opportunity at Carver County and their hearing is? Angie Johnson: June 15th at 1:30 in the afternoon. Tuesday afternoon. Todd Gerhardt: Okay. So you know you will have another opportunity at that level to speak and try to provide written comments to the council between now and then. ! don't know if that works for you or not but. Mayor Furlong: Well with regard to that specific request, ! guess ! don't have an answer right now. ! know that we will be, or ! would suggest that at this point I'd entertain a 14 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 motion to continue our review and the only question is do we want to deal with, since the Paulsen's are not here, ! guess, and Steve appreciate you getting in touch with them. Steve Clay: He doesn't need to be here. He's in agreement with the value change I'm recommending. Mayor Furlong: And I guess all I was going to suggest, if we can get an e-mail or confirmation from him just to his agreement, which we can clearly get between now and then. Angie Johnson: Mayor Furlong: this point or just work with the assessor's office? We did have one other person that signed an appeal here. Okay. We would just ask perhaps that they, did you want to speak at Audience: I'll work with them. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright. Todd Gerhardt: So Mayor we'll have Angie's office prepare a report for our next council meeting on the 26th of April for your consideration. with each of the appeals for your consideration. There will be a recommendation What time would you be having that? Can we do that as part of our regular? ! know in the past we've always done it at 6:00. You have what? Started at 6:00 on our second meeting. Okay, that's fine. Okay. Mayor, do you want to then continue the hearing until that date in time? Sure, do ! need a motion to do that? Yes. Is there a motion? Angie Johnson: Todd Gerhardt: Angie Johnson: Todd Gerhardt: Angie Johnson: Todd Gerhardt: Mayor Furlong: Roger Knutson: Mayor Furlong: Roger Knutson: Mayor Furlong: Councilman Lundquist: Motion to continue. 15 Board of Review and Equalization - April 12, 2004 Mayor Furlong: Is there a second? Councilman Ayotte: Second. Mayor Furlong: Any discussion on the motion? Councilman Lundquist moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the Board of Review and Equalization be continued to Monday, April 26, 2004 at 6:00 p.m.. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. The Board of Review and Equalization was continued to April 26, 2004 at 6:00 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 16