CC 2004 09 27
CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
SEPTEMBER 27, 2004
Mayor Furlong called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT:
Mayor Furlong, Councilman Ayotte, Councilman
Labatt, Councilman Lundquist and Councilman Peterson
STAFF PRESENT:
Todd Gerhardt, Justin Miller, Elliott Knetsch, Kate Aanenson, Bob
Generous, Todd Hoffman, and Paul Oehme
PUBLIC PRESENT FOR ALL ITEMS:
Justin Hagen 245 Lutsen Court, Chaska
Amber Oahs 8000 Erie Avenue
Heather Walbel 421 Lyman Boulevard
Deb Lloyd 7302 Laredo Drive
Melissa Gilman Chanhassen Villager
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
None.
CONSENT AGENDA:Councilman Lundquist moved, Councilman Labatt
seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City
Manager’s recommendations:
a. Approval of Minutes:
-City Council Work Session Minutes dated September 9, 2004
-City Council Work Session Minutes dated September 13, 2004
Receive Commission Minutes:
-Planning Commission Summary and Verbatim Minutes dated September 7, 2004
Resolution #2004-66:
b. Resolution Approving the Use of the Southwest Regional
Light Rail Transit Route as a Snowmobile Trail.
Resolution#2004-67:
d. Authorize Preparation of Feasibility Study; Approve
Consultant Work Order for 2005 Street Improvements, Project 05-01.
stnd
Resolution #2004-68:
e. Accept Streets in Arboretum Village 1 and 2 Additions,
Project Nos. 01-06 and 02-03.
Resolution #2004-69:
f. Approval of Plans and Specifications and Authorize
Advertisement for Bids for Lift Station No. 2, Project 01-011C.
City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
g. Approval of Temporary On-Sale Beer & Wine License, Edina Realty Foundation.
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h. Approval of Certificate of Correction for Walnut Grove 2 Addition, Planning
Case No. 04-10.
Resolution #2004-70:
i. Award of Bid, 2004 Pedestrian Trail
Reconstruction/Overlay Project.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS.
None.
LAW ENFORCEMENT & FIRE DEPARTMENT UPDATE.
Sgt. Jim Olson: Thank you. Quite a beautiful evening tonight. I included in my council
packet the sheriff’s office area report for the month of August. Copy of crime alerts that
were put out by Beth Hoiseth and also the community service office report. For the
monthly calls for service, our total calls for service were up by 153 for the month. That’s
compared to last year and for the year it’s up by 412. Criminal calls were up by 17 for
the month and they’re down by 52 for the year. A couple things that I just wanted to
point out, as I talked about at the last council meeting that I was at, that’s jumped up quite
a bit for the month of August. They’re up by 20 for the month from 38 to 58. A large
majority of those are from vehicles, and that’s compared to last year and they’re up by 21
total for the year. Related theft is down from 6 last year to 2 this year, and then for the
year overall they’re down from 37 last year to 13 this year, and theft related, what that
has to do is internet theft, fraud, embezzlement, different things like that. Burglaries
were down from 10 last year to 4 this year and for the year overall they’re down from 40
last year to 30 this year, which is a good thing. Suspicious activity was up quite a bit
from 97 to 166. Miscellaneous non-criminal was up quite a bit also from 78 last year to
109 this year, and then for the month citations, for the month of August citations, we’re at
158. Any questions at all relating to the monthly numbers? I want to talk about traffic
and school. School’s back in session again and I want to remind everyone to drive
carefully before and after school, around bus stops and in school zones especially, and
we’re paying extra close attention to school zones right now. Making sure speeds stay
down around those zones and reminding people to watch your speeds around there.
Deputies have done 12 special traffic details this month on Pleasant View Road alone,
and another 10 on Frontier Trail. So we’ve been hitting those quite a bit. We also had
saturation patrols on both streets involving multiple squads and also the laser that we did.
With Frontier Trail, I think that’s a perception problem over there more than anything
else. The top speed that we had on Frontier Trail was 38 miles an hour. That was one
vehicle and that was, we certainly did issue them a citation for that. From there we had
one vehicle at 33 and everything else was down under 30 for Frontier Trail. Cars look
like they’re going quite a bit faster along there because of the curves and we’re waiting to
hear back from the neighborhood for Project Leadfoot. We have contacted some people
out there but have not heard back from them as of yet. We’re trying to institute Project
Leadfoot on Frontier Trail. Any questions in reference to traffic problems? We did have
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
the speed trailer out there for a few days. There was some difficulties with the speed
readings that I don’t want to go into on there that we received but the numbers that I got
back from there were not accurate so, but I would rather not go into that here as far as
why they were not accurate. Homecoming is coming up. Homecoming for Chaska is in
a couple of weeks, and for Minnetonka it’s this week, and keep in mind that not
everybody enjoys being toilet papered with their residence with homecoming festivities
and so on. Frequently toilet papering leads to, seems to escalate to eggs and barbeque
sauce and honey and flour bombs and different things, and that can certainly lead to
damage so I would caution people to try to refrain from that. Earlier this month we had
some business burglaries. We had 3 one weekend. Crime Prevention Specialist Beth
Hoiseth sent out a crime alert to the different businesses that are on her e-mail list, and I
just wanted to remind people that Beth does do premise surveys and business surveys
where she’ll come out to the business, or your residence and take a look at crime
prevention needs and what you can do to help make your business more crime proof.
And she’s more than happy to do that. Her number is 952-227-1610. Any questions at
all for the sheriff’s office?
Mayor Furlong: Questions? Councilman Lundquist.
Councilman Lundquist: Sergeant Olson, when did you make contact or try to make
contact with the neighbors in that Frontier Trail area about getting involved in Project
Leadfoot?
Sgt. Jim Olson: I talked to them that night and then Beth has tried to make some contact
also. That same week and then also the next week. I know she did have conversation
with one person, and there wasn’t a lot of follow-up to that.
Councilman Lundquist: Okay, thank you.
Sgt. Jim Olson: Yep.
Mayor Furlong: Other questions? Councilman Ayotte.
Councilman Ayotte: Any, when you were out there, when our deputies were out there,
we had the issue with vehicles parked along the way and the concern about the vehicles
being used for slowing down traffic. What were the observations with regard to parked
vehicles along the road there?
Sgt. Jim Olson: It was not relayed to me that there were vehicles parked out there at that
time so I don’t have a good answer for you on that one councilman. I apologize.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions? Sergeant Olson, we talked a little bit
about Frontier Trail and you also mentioned Pleasant View where you had some detail
traffic.
Sgt. Jim Olson: Yes.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
Mayor Furlong: Is that something that you’re doing around the city at areas, both of
these areas are places where we’ve heard as a council have traffic issues and so that is
something that you have been doing and will continue to do I assume.
Sgt. Jim Olson: Absolutely.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Saturation and special details.
Sgt. Jim Olson: Yes.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright, good. Any other questions? No. Very good, thank you.
Sgt. Jim Olson: Have a nice evening.
Mayor Furlong: Chief Geske is here as well. Good evening.
Chief Gregg Geske: Good evening. Pretty short tonight. Again I don’t have any fires to
discuss, which is good. Fire prevention week is coming up, as that was posted in the
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council update. Fire prevention week is October 3 through October 9. We do have
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our open house on October 10. It will be from 1:00 to 4:00 p.m. Great opportunity. I
welcome everybody out there watching to bring the kids up. It’s great. You’ll have a
good time. Especially the fire truck rides. We try to add new stuff to keep them excited
all the time, and we’ll probably have close to 1,000 people that will come through for our
open house. I’d like to also cover the fire prevention week. I think Mark indicated, our
Fire Marshal indicated that we had 27 people sign up. Took off work during that week to
be involved in giving classes to the kids that we either have come to our station or go out
to the schools, and I think we’re up to actually 32 people signing up so it’s a pretty good
percentage out of the 45 people we have total here that sign up to take off a day that week
and I think that’s great. I can hope that the early fire ed that we have, we start out with
the first graders and we go all the way up into the third and fourth graders, is a direct
correlation to the number of fires that we have in town here so I think we can take some
credit for that. I think Mark Littfin does a real good job of getting people to sign up for
that. We do have 7 probationary members that are on their home stretch. They’ve taken
all their classes now and basically their percentage, they keep their percentage up, they
will be full time at the end of the year here so, and that’s about all I have. Short and
sweet.
Mayor Furlong: Very good. Any questions for the Chief? Very good, thank you.
Chief Gregg Geske: Thank you.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR VACATION OF DRAINAGE AND
UTILITY EASEMENT IN BURLWOOD ADDITION.
Public Present:
Name Address
Michael Falk 1000 Hilloway Circle, Burnsville
Paul Oehme: Thank you Mayor, City Council members. This item before you for your
consideration again is the Burlwood Subdivision vacation request by the developer.
Project area is shown in red and it’s at the southwest corner of Lake Lucy Road and
Powers Boulevard, County Road 17. There’s two areas of vacation that the developer is
requesting to have the council review tonight. And that’s shown on this drawing. The
first one is shown in the green. Indicated on this drawing here that, which is a 20 foot
sewer and water easement that covers an existing sanitary sewer line within the
development as part of the Burlwood plat, the developer has dedicated public right-of-
way as shown on the drawing over the existing sewer line and as such the easement is no
longer necessary for us and it’s more of a housekeeping issue to vacate that easement at
this time. The second easement area is shown on this drawing as between Lots 1 and 4,
Block 1 and that is due to the conflicts of the proposed houses sizes. The minimal size
lots in the development. The developer has elected to eliminate or delete one of the lots
at this time and only have 3 lots instead of the 4 that was previously platted. And the
developer is requesting to vacate these easements, in these areas where the existing lot
lines will be removed and the developer intends to dedicate the new easements over the
new property lines when that is platted. And that will probably take place at the time of
building permits so, that’s all I have tonight. I stand for questions. I request the public
hearing be open at this time.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Questions for staff.
Councilman Labatt: Just a question on the letter we got from Mr. Martinka. I don’t
know if you saw this at all?
Paul Oehme: Yeah. I should have.
Councilman Labatt: Can you address that?
Paul Oehme: In regards to the storm water issue.
Councilman Labatt: Well in response to the whole thing. Mainly it’s item number 3 he
wants to talk about.
Mayor Furlong: Which is storm water.
Paul Oehme: Which is the.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
Councilman Ayotte: Have you seen this?
Paul Oehme: Yeah, I have it right in front of me right now. I’m just reviewing it right
now so. The drainage and utility easement is still dedicated by his property. It’s just
being vacated within the right-of-way so to address his concerns, it was dedicated across
his property. It was dedicated in ’76. It’s been there for several, I mean almost 30 years
here now so, so I think that addresses his point. Where he had dedicated previously, now
we’re just vacating it and he’s getting access through this development now.
Councilman Labatt: Okay. How about the entire paragraph that’s underlined that talks
about the significant increase of water runoff.
Paul Oehme: Yep. That, the staff did look at that and actually the drainage area that’s
flowing into his property is decreasing by about .1 cfs at this time. It was a 2 acre area
that was draining through his property. Now it’s decreased to about 1, I think 1.5 acres.
So the area has gone down. The impervious area has gone up obviously because it’s
impervious now so, but overall it balances out and there’s about a .1 cfs less going out
onto the existing drainage utility easement through there. There are, I think his concern
is there are two pipes coming out into this new drainage utility easement where
previously there was only one. There’s two 18 inch pipes that are basically feeding into
the drainage ditch there. I think that was his biggest concern. Overall the storm water
volume again and quantity is the same. It’s city standard is, our minimum pipe size is 15
inches. I think the outlet pipe is 18 inches and that typically, that outlet pipe is typically
increased just to slow down the velocity of the water coming out so that’s, I think that’s
getting to his point. Why the pipes are bigger. It’s our standard to put 15 inch pipes in.
We don’t go any smaller than that just due to the fact that for maintenance and flushing
purposes.
Kate Aanenson: Steve, if I could just comment on. Paul did meet with Mr. Martinka.
He had some concerns, as he did meet with Sharmeen Al-Jaff on our planning staff who
did work on this, and just to clarify, the copy of the letter was given to you because he
wanted it as part of the record. I believe Paul has addressed his concerns. They have
spoken and so he just wanted to make sure that there was written documentation that they
have spoken and that you had a copy of that. So I believe we’ve resolved his issues to
date. He was concerned about the pipe. The pipe is going in now. He sees the pipe is
out there going in and I think he just had some concerns and just wanted you to have that
as part of the record but I believe, it appears that we’ve addressed his issues.
Councilman Ayotte: Why didn’t you say that?
Kate Aanenson: That’s why I was trying to help him there.
Councilman Labatt: Okay, thank you Kate.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any other questions? At this point. Just a point of
clarification. The survey that was up there that shows the 6 lots, there was actually going
to be 5 lots there, is that right? Or is this, did you show the one reduced lot or is this?
Does this show what was approved or what he’s going to?
Kate Aanenson: There were homes that were approved off of a private drive. Do you
have a copy of that, we can show that real quick. And when those homes were approved
as part of a private drive, it does require a variance. Specific home placement plans were
submitted with that. As the builder came in to put the homes on the lot, they were
significantly larger and they were over the impervious surface requirement. The
developer had asked the staff for a variance and we said we wouldn’t support it because
we wouldn’t have given the private drive for that so it’s, yeah. It’s these lots, this drive
coming through here. And part of his issue was, this private drive right here’s a little bit
harder to see. This private drive right here. Because there’s a private drive, plus a
driveway, it increases the impervious surface but he was given relief to do that, and that
should have been taken into consideration. We did look at home placement plans that
could have fit. He did end up making the homes bigger so instead of, because we were
going to recommend no on the variance. We wouldn’t support that. He decided that he
did kind of maybe overshoot the home sizes, he’s going to drop a lot which we think
makes more sense. So it’s just these lots are coming off this private drive that we’re
talking about.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any other questions for staff at this time? If not we’ll
open the public hearing and invite interested parties to come forward and speak to the
council on this matter. Please come forward to the podium. State your name and
address. Address the council. If nobody’s interested in speaking, then I will close the
public hearing and bring it back to the council for their comments and discussion. Any
thoughts, comments?
Councilman Lundquist: Looks pretty mundane to me.
Mayor Furlong: Thanks. To the extent that Mr. Martinka’s issues have been addressed,
which we understand that they are, it seems fairly straight forward as well.
Councilman Labatt: Agreed.
Mayor Furlong: If there is no discussion, then is there a motion. I think the motion that’s
being requested is on page 2. If somebody would be willing to make that motion, with
condition number 1. A so moved would be appropriate at this time.
Councilman Peterson: So moved.
Mayor Furlong: Is there a second?
Councilman Lundquist: Second.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
Mayor Furlong: Any discussion on that motion?
Resolution #2004-71:Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Lundquist
seconded to approve a resolution vacating the existing public easements as defined
on the attached vacation descriptions, subject to the following condition:
1. Minimum 5 foot wide public drainage and utility easements must be dedicated
along each side of the new lot lines.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
REQUEST FOR AMENDMENT TO THE ARBORETUM BUSINESS PARK PUD
DESIGN STANDARDS TO PERMIT RETAIL USES ON BLOCK 1,
TH
ARBORETUM BUSINESS PARK 4 ADDITION; LOCATED SOUTH OF
HIGHWAY 5, WEST OF CENTURY BOULEVARD, AND NORTH OF
CORPORATE PLACE; HELSENE PARTNERS, LLC.
Bob Generous: Thank you Mr. Mayor, council members. The request is to amend the
Arboretum Business Park PUD. Arboretum Business Park is located at the southeast
corner of Highways 5 and 41. Specifically we’re looking at the southwest corner of
Century Boulevard and Highway 5. This is a little commercial area within the project.
However as part of the PUD the intent was for a light industrial with some support
commercial uses. It was amended for Mr. Helsene to permit some personal services
which in the past we have interpreted office services as being the equivalent. Right now
he has a flower shop that would like to go into one of his units. We said the only way he
could do that is by amending the PUD. As you see the Arboretum Business Park, the
intent really was for more office and industrial uses. There were two areas that we were
looking at support commercial uses at the entrance coming in off of Highway 5 where we
have currently there’s a bank, Mr. Helsene’s building and then the daycare. And then on
nd
the other side the Holiday Inn Express recently opened, and down on the corner of 82
Street and Highway 41 where the only commercial convenience that was approved for
this site is located, which is the gas station Citgo. There are other places in the
community that are guided for commercial uses. There are other properties that are
appropriately zoned for commercial uses. Just to the north of Highway 5 there is a
commercial center that’s under construction. There is space available for retail type uses.
We believe that amending the PUD would change the character of the Arboretum
Business Park and we’re recommending that the amendment be denied. With that I’d be
happy to answer any questions.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for staff.
Councilman Ayotte: On the fact, just for clarification. Item C. Is there a word missing
there? The proposed use would not conform or should be the proposed use would
conform. That’s a little confusing to me. What’s that supposed to be?
Bob Generous: Well the use would not conform.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
Councilman Ayotte: So we’ve got a word missing, okay.
Bob Generous: Yes.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions? At this point. If not, is the applicant
here this evening? Helsene’s. If you’d like to come forward and address the council.
We did receive a copy of the Planning Commission minutes so, but certainly interested in
your thoughts.
Chris Helsene: Sure. Chris Helsene from Helsene Partners, Century Boulevard Park.
Gene Helsene: Gene Helsene, his dad.
Brenda Helsene: I’m the wife, Brenda Helsene. Two partners.
Chris Helsene: The reason we’re going for this is, of course we’ve had an interest with
the flower shop. We also feel that the city has indicated they’ve set areas aside for retail
and a different design for the Arboretum Business Park. The way things have changed
out there, I’ve heard many times that that area has been tweaked over and over to
incorporate other things, and we’re asking for that small portion of the southwest corner.
We feel that it gives us a slight disadvantage that just over the, across the road literally
they can incorporate retail onto that side of the highway and just the way the corner being
set up, our building’s set up as kind of a mall situation. We don’t feel that any retail that
would go in there would ever be high impact of any kind. We just feel like we’ve been
put at a little bit of a disadvantage when right across the street they’re able to do what we
can’t.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Alright, thank you. Any questions? For the applicant. No?
Okay, thank you. Appreciate it. Any additional, I’ll bring it back to council. Any
additional questions for staff or any thoughts in terms of reply to their comments Kate?
Kate Aanenson: I guess certainly we can understand their feelings. The staff from the
beginning, as Bob’s met with them. We have vacant commercial in the city. When we
put this industrial park together we said there should be some support commercial in the
size of the scale of that building went in with vacant space. You know we could argue
the other way that there’s people that have retail space that are in a different price point
and different rates trying to market their property just as well so the argument can be
made the flip flop for the advantage. Who has an advantage and who doesn’t have
advantage. I guess our biggest concern is the delusion of what we created with that
district and the implication that we’ve got other industrial parks that we want to maintain
predominantly in the industrial use and keep that, you know the core commercial in those
areas that we’ve been selective as trying to, along the corridor, to create that synergy.
That energy. We’ve got Market Street Station going in too so we do have quite a bit of
commercial that’s coming on line. We certainly empathize with the owner of the
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
building, that they want to put another tenant in there but again that was our feelings that
there is plenty of retail space available in the city.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Bring it back to the council for discussion.
Councilman Peterson: And the interim use that was discussed at the Planning
Commission, this really isn’t a logical alternative?
Kate Aanenson: Legally I don’t know how, if you could have dropped it. Once you get
something in there. And just, that’s a good point to kind of segway into another, you
know once you put a retail use in there, unless you specifically say…flower shop in the
back, if that flower shop went away. You know once you put retail in there, it’s going to
be harder to get it out I think. We kind of learned that with, over time.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Other discussion points. Thoughts. I guess my, you know just
very quickly. I can appreciate and empathize with the Helsene Partners, looking across
there. At the same time I’m not hearing, and even through the Planning Commission
seeing a compelling reason to change the zoning here for this specific use as much as
your I guess thinking about what staff said in terms of the advantages, disadvantages.
You know the idea is to make sure that we look at zoning across the city, not just on a
particular property as much as anything else so again I look at, I was looking through
here, where’s the compelling reason. How can we do this? Where’s the justification and
I couldn’t see it. I don’t know if any of the fellow council members could but you know I
think the argument of, if there’s been slippage and I don’t know if that was the word
that’s been used in the past, if that justifies continued slippage or not, I don’t think so. I
think I’d rather say you know when there’s, let’s try to avoid those and we can’t go back
and correct the past but let’s take advantage of opportunities when they present
themselves here so those are my thoughts. I guess.
Councilman Peterson: Well yeah, I agree. I think to your point Mayor, there may have
been slippage in the past but you have to assume that there’s slippage for a compelling
reason. Nor do I see it here tonight unfortunately. I’d like to say yes from a pro business
standpoint but I really can’t.
Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any other discussion? Thoughts? Okay. If not, if there’s no
other discussion, is there a motion? Page 6.
Councilman Lundquist: I would move that the City Council deny the amendment to the
PUD 92-6, development design standards to permit retail uses based on the findings of
fact and recommendation attached to the report.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Is there a second?
Councilman Labatt: Second.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
Mayor Furlong: It’s been made and seconded. Any discussion? Just one point of
clarification, that the findings of fact would be modified…
Councilman Lundquist: The amended findings of fact as requested, yeah.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. With that, if there’s no further discussion.
Councilman Lundquist moved, Councilman Labatt seconded that the City Council
denies the amendment to the Planned Unit Development (PUD #92-6) development
design standards to permit retail uses based on the amended findings of fact and
recommendation attached to this report. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
REQUEST FOR AN INTERIM USE PERMIT FOR GRADING AND
RESTORATION OF THE MOON VALLEY GAVEL MINE, BEATRICE
ZWIERS.
Bob Generous: Thank you Mr. Mayor, council members. This is a request for an interim
use permit for a grading permit for the restoration of the Moon Valley mining operation
out on 212 and south of the regional trail system. This mining has been going on for
many years and now we’re looking at reclaiming the site and preparing it for future
development. This area doesn’t come into the urban service area until 2015 under the
current comprehensive plan. However there are major erosion issues going on on the site
and the developer, with the development of the top part of this property, the Settlers West
development, is looking at reclaiming this area. It’s a little hard to see but the…there are
steep, almost vertical cliffs that are in there that were created through the mining
operation. When it rains everything washes down to the bottom. The site was also used
for a gun range over many years. At one time it was even a ski resort but now they’re
coming in with a grading plan that would create a 2 ½ to 1 slope on both sides and create
a bowl within the middle. Previously there was a settlement agreement between the city
and the property owner to regrade the site. Reclaim it after the mining operation was
completed. However that operation or that plan allowed them to go into the northwest
corner of the site. Between the Planning Commission and now we did have the DNR
Forester come out and look at the quality of the woods on that. He was very impressed
with the woods actually north, in the northwest corner and on the property to the north of
this in this bowl area, which is in some land that the city is receiving as a dedication
through the Settlers West development. However as you move south he said that the type
of trees in there, there’s a bigger variety of trees so they had small ones and big ones so it
wasn’t as high a quality of development and so he felt that yes, the trees have some value
but it’s not as valuable as the portions that are saving. The other issue that came up as
part of the Planning Commission was flooding on 212. We did look at the low point on
that and that is actually east of this site so if flooding did become an issue, it’s closer to
Dell Road that would flood so they’d still be able to exit the site and go to the west. Staff
is recommending approval of the grading plan for this site and then they have a small
area to the west. We are recommending that they revise the westerly portion of this and
pull the grading area back to the 756 contour, which means that when they grade
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
everything east of that, that’s graded would drain to the east into the ponding area that we
have and everything on the west would just go naturally. There won’t be any current
impacts in that area, so we believe this is a slightly better plan. It also creates a more
natural area within the middle. When this area comes in in the future for development
review, then they don’t lose that area as part of calculating their overall developable area,
but it will be in a more pristine state. As part of the restoration of this, not only are we
giving seeding and blanket to eliminate or control erosion, but we’re having them replant
the slopes with the root stock, small trees in a 7 foot area so they can stagger it up the hill
and this will provide additional footing for the dirt so that erosion issues don’t become a
problem on that. The quantities involved are higher because this is a south facing slope.
It’s a hotter and drier environment and so the trees that we’re proposing do have a
tendency to survive in that type of environment. As we say, we are recommending
approval. I did provide you with a copy of a revision to condition 4. As part of this the
applicant is to provide us with a security for the grading of this site. What this condition
does is modify it. It’s only for that stage of the grading that’s taking place that we will
require the security so whatever phase, if they’re only going to grade a quarter of the site
at one time, then that, we take 110 percent of that amount to make sure that that grading
and restoration takes place. This is, we’re recommending approval for a 5 year period.
We believe that this can be restored within that timeframe. With that I’d be happy to
answer any questions.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for staff. Question on this proposed change for
item 4. I guess my question is, since this is a multi year project, and we haven’t heard
from Mr. Herbst yet but knowing his experience that if he says he’s going to do
something, he’s going to do it. At the same time situations change and I guess my
question is, if we’re just taking the escrow and this is a question of the project itself, for
that year, if something doesn’t happen, or if they can’t continue and they’re part way
through the 5 year project, don’t we need to make sure that the whole project gets done
from an erosion and from a storm water standpoint?
Kate Aanenson: That’s a good question. Let me just kind of reframe a little bit to how
we got to this point. Settlers West came in, we spent a lot of time discussing whether or
not we would let that top area be serviced. One of the benefits that we saw allowing the
top be serviced is to clean up the bottom. There was a settlement agreement with Mr.
Zwiers who owned a portion of the site and this grading plan goes well beyond that. Part
of that settlement agreement did not include landscaping and restoration of slope. Just re-
grading. Over time the operation of the gravel pit, that pretty much ceased and
significant erosion has taken place including the ponding that should be in place, so
because the applicant has the top piece, there’s a lot of incentive which goes back to your
question. We get the bottom part cleaned up. They’re tied together with the underlying
property owner, Mr. Zwiers, so Mr. Herbst, the Pemtom development has the incentive in
order to sell those lots and requirements to make that happen. There’s certain
performance measures that have to come in place right away which would be the ponding
and the initial landscaping but because it is a 5 year interim use, we believe that the cash
in place should be, it can only be exposing so much at a certain point that that would be
accomplished. If you look at the volume of trees as Bob indicated, you know we’re
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
looking at 20,000 trees and I think at first the applicant was almost fell over, there’s
20,000 trees but we actually worked pretty hard to find some of these root bound through
the DNR to get those prices down so actually it’s trying to work really hard to make this
cost effective for everybody because it is, there’s lead down there. There’s some other
hazardous things that we’re working to get rid so it’s a win on everybody’s part again
because he’s a developer on the top side, the incentive is such. But I believe that the way
that we’ve got the interim use set up for the 5 years, and the money that we’re taking up
front and those performance measures, that should all be accomplished…
Mayor Furlong: And I guess, right. And yeah, one of the benefits of going forward with
the development up on the bluff, up on top was the, this right here. You know coming
back with the grading plan so I guess I’m just you know financially with taking 100
percent, 110 percent of the year’s work, obviously there’s cash implications and, to the
developer but are we covered to make sure that all 5 years get done, and maybe that’s.
Okay.
Kate Aanenson: …but that part that’s already exposed and kind of eroding, I mean that’s
the part that will get the vegetation on sooner. Kind of first phase. The other parts are
really going to be the rolling parts that you’re going to be removing some vegetation so
the worst part is kind of what we’re addressing first, and within that there’s also
environmental issues that we’re going to be working with them to help and you’ll be
seeing a resolution regarding that. The clean-up of some of the lead. That there’s going
to be some time spent on just even that portion before we can move forward so only good
things are going to happen because of this interim use and getting it right as Bob
mentioned, to come in for future development. To get the property in such a format.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. One other question with regard to the plan here, and
this is, it does expand the developable area relative to the prior plan which was just basic
plan without trying to do anything but what erosion, as I understand it. In terms of
maximizing development area at the expense of the natural resources, very specifically
trees or maximizing the natural resources at the expense of development or somewhere in
the middle. Where does this grading plan fall?
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, that’s a great question. You know when we originally looked at
this, I think the applicant was hoping that as part of the site plan we could just approve
kind of the modification of the grading plan and our interest of always full disclosure to
the neighbors on what’s going in and we felt like we need to go back and go beyond what
the original court order was, the settlement agreement and say you know we wanted full
disclosure on the entire property that the Zwiers family owns. In order to balance that to
make it work, we walked outside. We spent a lot of time reviewing it. We actually took
the Planning Commission out there to understand the scale of the slopes, so really in
looking at having not only our forester out there but the DNR forester go out to really
examine the quality of the trees and what can be, I think we struck a really good balance
of preserving what is significant. Whether it’s slopes or trees as Bob indicated. We’ve
asked them to pull back on the creek. There’s a beautiful creek that runs through there.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
To move away from that a little bit and then providing enough impetus that those costs of
grading and re-establishing of that slope provides a developable plan in the future.
Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Any other questions for staff?
Councilman Labatt: Yep. Bob, can you just on that map, just point out where’s the green
building. The main, the old mining operation building.
Bob Generous: They’re right as you come into the entrance.
Councilman Labatt: Okay, and then the red range house where the shots are fired from.
Bob Generous: That’s in this area also. Right in here.
Councilman Labatt: Okay. And then can you just outline the rim, kind of expose the
northwest rim of the current pit right now as it exists. You know you had that one edge
there’s about a 80 foot, 90 foot drop.
Bob Generous: Yeah, it drops all the way down here. This is the area right here.
Councilman Labatt: Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: But isn’t the dark gray Bob, the area where they’ve already graded? Or
pulled material out.
Bob Generous: No, this will be where they re, well they have, all this is rough.
Todd Gerhardt: Right.
Bob Generous: …This is the top of the slope. That will come up to the property lines so
what they need to do is try to make that 2 to 1 slope.
Todd Gerhardt: Right. The material has been taken out of that top portion.
Bob Generous: Up into here and over…
Councilman Labatt: Okay.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any other questions for staff? If not, would Mr. Herbst, the
applicant, would you like to address the council on anything?
Dan Herbst: Honorable Mayor, members of the City Council, professional staff, Dan
Herbst at 7640 Crimson Bay in Chanhassen and Justin Larson also with me from Sathre-
Berquist. First of all I want to thank all the effort that’s gone into this. It was out of your
MUSA and your staff has done just a fantastic job. I think every one of your members of
your staff have been on the site on a couple occasions from trees to environmental to
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
planning to engineering and everybody’s really worked hard on this. We also had a great
meeting with the Planning Commission out at the site. The good news is, for the city, is
that we’re going to get this erosion stopped. We’re going to shut down the range. We’ve
got the antenna tower down and also the good news up on the upper bluff, we hope to be
building you some beautiful homes out there generating some park fees, building fees and
some real estate revenues for you real soon out there next year so. Back down to the
lower part, we are pushing the envelope here a little bit based on, as you pointed out, as
far as wanting to create more of the site for usable land than was in your restoration plan
that you have with the settlement with the owner, but I think you really took the first step
with this, when you did your comprehensive plan and you guided that area for high
density housing with some mixed use of office and industrial further on the piece to the
west. And I’ve asked the planning staff when they’re out there, and I asked you in the
letter that I addressed to you that eventually we’d like to come back to you and, without
impacting any additional trees that we’re talking about protecting tonight, but push the
envelope a little bit further so that there would be enough building area there so that you
could really have something very creative for the city. I think traffic can be handled on
212 in that location. I think we can handle the drainage very well, but I think if we could,
this permit allows about 18 acres of usable land but I think in the future we’d like to
come back to you, if you’re open to it. The Planning Commission was, to maybe look at
even 25 acres of the land so that we could get 2 or 3 different housing products down on
that site with some creativity to it. With some mixed use. With some buffering, and
really do something, and I compared it to, in a small scale to what the City of Edina did
with the old Hedberg gravel pit, and everything was going on at that operation also from
cement to restoration to mining, but the City said you know we’re not going to look at all
the trees and the bluff and all this kind of stuff on this site. We’re going to do something
extremely creative here and they create a lot of incentives to do the different type of
housing that the city needed at that time which was people working at the hospital. For
people working at the shopping center that couldn’t afford to live any other place in
Edina and I think if we could get some density that you have on your comprehensive
plan. Not exceed that, because you’re looking at high density as you’re guided, and we
can push the envelope a little bit to areas such as this area here. The tree quality is very
poor and it would require coming back to you with a plan and go through your staff and
Planning Commission but I just wanted to plant that seed because I think there is a
chance here to, the views down there. I mean if you turn to the north, I mean you want to
regurgitate because the site’s been graded for 70 years. The shooting. The mining.
Everything’s been going on there. The erosion is bad but if you turn and get yourself up
on some of those plateaus and start looking out to the south and a little bit to the east and
west, it’s a fantastic site. And if we can create the right plateaus down there, get a mix
use of housing. Maybe even have something down there to serve their needs as far as
shopping, dairy store or something down there. I think down the road when you’re
looking at your 2008 comp plan amendment, we’d like to come back to you with some
schematics to really do something nice down there. Not just plop in 200 housing units on
18 acres so. To answer your question Mr. Mayor on the financial incentive, I think every
year the incentive for the widow here is she’s hoping, it’s going to be very costly for her
to restore this site. The lead is substantial as far as not that it’s a big environmental issue
but it’s spread out pretty good there. They had a pistol range, they had a rifle range and
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
they had a skeet and a trap range so the area that got, the area that got these little pellets
all over it is pretty substantial so it’s going to cost her a lot of money to do that. The
incentive for her is to sell off some of this fill in the future and the permit is for 1.8
million cubic yards coming out so I think you have the carrot in front of her that every
year if she’s not compliant, this is not being done properly, the erosion’s not being taken
care of, you shut that permit down and she’s lost her right to sell off an awful lot of
material. And during the first 3 years, the reason we ask for a 5 year deal, I think she’s
going to have a very difficult time the next 2 years. When 312 goes in, they’re talking
about up to 2 million cubic yards of excess material as they carve 312 below you know
Dell Road, below 101. There’s an awful lot of material going to be on the marketplace
next year so if you’ve got any big holes you want to fill next 2 years would be the time to
do it so I think she’s going to have a hard time, we can start the erosion deal. We can
start doing the planting here but I think as far as her marketability of this material, it’s
going to be tough for the next year or 2 but then she’s got it right, but I think you’ll have
the, you’ll have a real hammer here if she’s, if we’re not doing the right thing here, to
shut that permit down so she will not be able to sell that material off and that’s going to
be a great financial disincentive for her and give you the carrot you need to get the job
done so, are there any questions?
Mayor Furlong: No? Thank you.
Dan Herbst: Again our whole process was something you didn’t have to deal with and I
really thank you for doing this. The staff time involved, planning and your staff, but I
think the end result’s going to be great but I really appreciate all the time. Thank you
very much.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you and we appreciate your vision and what can be done in an
area that’s, we’ve struggled with for many years as a city so we thank you as well. Very
good, I’ll bring it back to council for discussion. Comments.
Councilman Peterson: Make it so.
Mayor Furlong: Good deal. Everybody’s winning.
Councilman Peterson: I approve as staff is recommending.
Councilman Ayotte: Second.
Mayor Furlong: Made and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion?
Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded that the City Council
approves Interim Use Permit Case #04-27 to permit grading, excavation and slope
restoration as proposed on the plans prepared by Sathre-Berquist, Inc., dated
7/16/04, subject to the following conditions:
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
1. The interim use permit shall be approved for a period of five (5) years from the
date of City Council approval. Annually the grading permit must be renewed.
The applicant will need to request a formal extension 60 days prior to the
expiration date of the permit.
2. The existing buildings and outbuildings and any septic system or wells on site
shall be abandoned in accordance with City and/or State codes.
3. The applicant shall perform a Phase I Environmental Audit of the property to
determine if the gun range or other site operations have environmentally impacted
the property.
4. The applicant must provide the City with a cash escrow or letter of credit in the
amount of 100% of the construction costs for the appropriate phase of the grading
operations to guarantee erosion control measures, site restoration and compliance
with the interim use permit.
5. Permits from the appropriate regulatory agency must be obtained; including but
not limited to the MPCA and MnDot.
6. Details for the proposed pond outlets shall be submitted for review by the City.
7. On-site ponding shall be adjusted, if necessary, at the time of site development to
meet the City’s requirements for proposed build-out conditions.
8. If erosion control measures installed in conjunction with this interim use permit
are deemed by the City to be effective, the City shall inform the applicant in
writing of any deficiencies. The applicant shall work with the City to remedy the
deficiencies in a timely manner.
9. Stabilization of the toe (first 150 feet of the slope) shall be completed
immediately upon final grade. Stabilization shall be done in phases. Large
portions of the site shall not be left exposed over weekends or during forecasted
heavy rains.
10. The slopes shall be tracked with a dozer at all times. The dozer shall be run
perpendicular to the slope to track the slope.
11. The northeast “corner” of the slope (north of soil boring 18, south of soil boring
14 and inbetween soil borings 10 and 15) shall be stabilized so as to promote long
term stability. This may include a terrace, turf reinforcement mat and slope drain.
12. All blankets installed on site shall be properly applied. The blankets shall make
100% contact with the soil, stapled according to manufacturer’s specifications and
head trenched.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
13. Geotextile and riprap or geogrids or other approved stabilization shall be used to
provide toe protection.
14. The seed mix specified (MN DOT 500) shall be changed to MN DOT Native Mix
340 (Sandy Mid Height, dry conditions- i.e. south facing slope). An application
rate of 16 pounds per acre is recommended (20 pounds per acre for hydoseeding
or broadcasting).
15. Silt fence shall be installed at least 25 feet away from the toe of the slope to
provide storage and allow the silt fence to function properly. As stated on the
plan, the temporary sediment basins shall be installed prior to grading activities.
Berms may be needed to divert runoff into the basins along TH 212.
16. The applicant must provide a proposed haul route for review and approval.
17. If the excess material is hauled to another site in Chanhassen, a separate grading
permit will be required for the other property.
18. All disturbed areas as a result of construction are required to be reseeded and
mulched within two weeks of site grading.
19. The applicant must pay the City an administration fee of $7,124 prior to the City
signing the permit.
20. Add the benchmark to the plan that was used for the site survey.
21. End the grading on the eastern side of the creek at the proposed high-point
elevation in the usable area of 756.
22. In the future, when a development proposal is submitted, drainage and utility
easements over the ponds and creek will be required.
23. Add Type I silt fence in the southeast corner of the site around the grading limits
and around the proposed pond outlet.
24. Permitted hours of operation will be 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday through
Friday, and 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. on Saturday with no work permitted on Sunday
or legal holidays.
25. Appropriate signage for hauling along TH 212 is required.
26. Tree preservation fencing must be installed at the edge of grading limits.
27. MN DOT Native Mix 340 be used for the seeding.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
28. All restored slope shall be planted with trees. The trees shall be bare-root, native
species, one-half to one inch in diameter, five to ten foot spacing in a random
pattern from the top to the toe of the slope. The approximate number of trees
needed is 20,000 (7’ x 7’ spacing).
Spacing (feet) Trees per acre
5 x 5 1,742
6 x 6 1,210
7 x 7 889
8 x 8 681
10 x 10 436
29. A driveway access to 230 & 240 Erie Avenue must be maintained at all times
during construction.
30. Submit a plan showing a permanent driveway access alignment for 230 & 240
Erie Avenue.
31. The harvesting of timber shall be limited to the area within the grading limits.
32. The applicant’s engineer must work with city staff to revise the drainage
calculations per city standards and NURP requirements.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Councilman Ayotte: On a light note, I’d like to ask if Mr. Justin Miller could sit
someplace else besides right where he is underneath that light with an orange tie on from
now on.
Councilman Lundquist: I was going to ask him where he got that…
Councilman Ayotte: Oh good. But on a more serious note, I’d like to make a request of
fellow council and legal counsel to investigate the pros and cons of considering the
mayoral term after 2006 to be changed from 2 years to 4. And to research that as an
option. I personally believe, now that I’m ending my 4 year term, that the stability to this
council could be enhanced if the leadership role would be 4 rather than 2 because it
would (a), add stability in my view, and (b), be less disruptive to the operation of the
council so I just make that request to see if it could be researched and what timing wise
when it would make sense, if it does make sense.
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Todd Gerhardt: If that’s the wishes of the entire council, staff can work with the city
attorney and draft up a report and bring it back to a work session.
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
Mayor Furlong: Okay.
Councilman Labatt: Certainly worth looking into.
Councilman Ayotte: You can’t nod on that.
Mayor Furlong: I’m just doing this. If we do it, it shouldn’t be about the person sitting
in this chair at the time. So that’s clear.
Councilman Ayotte: That’s why I say 2006.
Mayor Furlong: Well that’s the legal aspect, yep. Okay. Anything else? Any other
discussions? I’ve got one thing just to a heads up with the Southwest Corridor
Transportation Coalition is a coalition that the city’s been a member of for a number of
years working on 212 and other projects. We’ve had a number of meetings in recent
months with regard to advocating upgrades to Highway 5 west of 41 out through
Victoria, Waconia, to Norwood Young America, and the group’s very active on it.
Trying to work with Carver County and MnDot to look for ways to improve that for not
only our benefit but obviously for those cities as well so there may be something coming
forward over the next few months here. Weeks or months looking for support from us as
part of, as one of the cities along that Highway 5 and I know staff has been working
diligently on that but I just raise that issue up. I think it would be, even though we’re a
small section of that, of the mileage of roads from 41 west to Norwood Young America, I
think it would clearly benefit us so that’s just kind of a heads up that we’re looking at that
as a way to improve our transportation and infrastructure here within the city. Other
discussion, issues? If not, administrative presentations.
ADMIINSTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS.
Todd Gerhardt: The only item I have is we had a wonderful dedication for the senior
center. Probably had 160 plus participants in that. I’d like to thank Todd Hoffman,
Susan Bill for all their efforts in making that dedication come off with no problems with
the exception of the air conditioner kicking on and off a couple of times. Got a little
warm in there, but I think it was well received and we’ve been watching them play cards
in there and sing and you know they’ve got a lot of room now to do their thing and it’s
been fun watching them. And I think their participation, looking at the cars in the
parking lot are any indication, it’s increased and so that’s exciting to see. So Tom did a
great job in presenting the plaque dedicating the senior center so we have historical
significance on the walls so when we have that 10 year anniversary we’ll know when it
was. So I think they’re enjoying it and it was a great program. Good food. And other
than that, got back from Atlanta and things are good.
Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Gerhardt? Nothing. Very good. If
there’s nothing else to come before the council this evening. Oh, correspondence
discussion. Any discussion or comments on the correspondence packet?
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City Council Meeting – September 27, 2004
CORRESPONDENCE PACKET.
None.
Mayor Furlong: The council will be, after we adjourn, we will be meeting as the EDA
immediately following in the council chambers which was posted. With that, if there’s
nothing else to come before the council this evening, is there a motion to adjourn?
Councilman Peterson moved, Councilman Ayotte seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. The City Council meeting was adjourned
at 8:00 p.m.
Submitted by Todd Gerhardt
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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