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CC Minutes 1998 07 27CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JULY 27, 1998 Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:40 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Berquist, Councilman Engel and Councilman Senn COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Mason STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Anita Benson, Kate Aanenson, Cynthia Kirchoff, and Sharmin A1-Jaff APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: Resolution 98-71: Approve Resolution Between the City of Chanhassen and Minnesota Dept of Public Safety in Conjunction with the Carver County Sheriff's Department Regarding Safe and Sober Grant. Resolution 98-72: Approve Resolution Continuing Participation in Southwest Metro Drug Task Force for 1999. Resolution 98-73: Accept Storm Drainage Improvements in Oakwood Estates Addition, Project No. 98-12. Approve Amendment to Development Contract for Springfield 2nd Addition to Expand Grading Limits Project 97-20. f. Approval of Bills. City Council Minutes dated July 13, 1998 Park & Recreation Commission Minutes dated June 23, 1998 Public Safety Commission Minutes dated July 9, 1998 h. Approve 1998 Trail Project Easements. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Bruce Johanson: Good evening. Thank you. My name is Bruce Johanson. I live at 6701 Mohawk Drive in Chanhassen. And I don't really know where to begin. I've got a few thoughts and I just would like to say I'm coming tonight I guess as a disgruntled resident of Chanhassen stemming from a couple situations and I'd like to just take a moment. There is some legal paperwork that my lawyer sent to Kate Aanenson this afternoon and I haven't even seen it but she might be able to discuss that later. The statement that I'd like to make briefly is that I believe that the Carver Beach area, that whole little spot over there in the comer of Chanhassen by Carver Beach and Lotus Lake, I believe it's one of the most beautiful and unique spots in this entire city. It's got a charm to it. It has an atmosphere almost like a time gone by with the huge trees and the curvy streets and the quirky little houses and there's even a guy over there that still has a horse you know and so it's just unique. And then the beach itself and the trails. And from my living there it's been about 4 years now and there's just a spirit of neighborliness with most all of the neighbors. They work together. They take consideration for matters in the neighborhood I'm speaking of. And it's always kind of held forth that way and with my older neighbors, the Ludstigs and Deglers, they've told me a lot of the history going back over 50 years and so I've been privileged to have these people as friends and to really come to appreciate that area. But what's happened is I've got a neighbor and his name is Loren Veltkamp and you're aware of this and I have found since I've come in to that area, he's been there shortly before I was. There's just been a constant barrage of items which I feel are in direct violation of city ordinances and I think, you know I think their head's just been turned. I don't think anything has really been implemented on a consistent enforceable basis. Just over city ordinances. And the most recent, I thought I was going to be here tonight to present on behalf of the neighborhood with a petition which I had unanimous support to keep a walkway known as Tamarack Road, which I spoke of last week. Or a couple weeks ago. Open. Everybody loved the idea. I mean they wanted it or they grew up with it so, but then Loren stopped this because he found that for this other project that he's been having in the works for a garage, he couldn't get it if he got what he wanted for on the other side of his property so he drops that and then I find this information. Cindy called me and you know it's just everything gets confused with this person and since I've lived there, when I moved in that was my view. I don't know if you can see that but that was my view out my kitchen window. That's Lotus Lake and I had a similarly gorgeous view out my living room window. I have no views anymore. This man has planted dozens and dozens of trees in front of my windows. He's built fences on my lower level windows and he's had just this consistent process of trying to antagonize and do whatever he does and now he's got junk up on his roof. Literally screen doors, chicken wire, you name it. Landscape plastic all on my side and he crawls up, he's got a ladder strapped to a tree 4 feet from my living room window with voodoo paint on the trunk and he crawls up this tree and looks in my window. And the City Council or whoever are the code enforcers just don't act. They all say gee, it's a shame. It's too bad and now my view, which is now eliminated by foliage, is going to be eliminated or at least 95% eliminated by a monstrosity of a garage which I question if it's in violation of city ordinance. So it's these type of things that are just so frustrating. And he got his permit. Everything was legal schmegal I guess and now he's beginning construction and so be it. But all I was asking for was just a little consideration over the lake views and the aesthetic views of not just my house but the neighborhood and if my time is done, if I lost my battle because he got in under the wire and so be it but I really do suggest to the Council that you consider some form of protecting these unique little treasures that we have left in Chanhassen. It can be a beautiful community but this stuff, I'm not going to be the last person where something like this is going to happen. So I guess that's it. I thank you for listening and good luck. Mayor Mancino: Thank you Bruce. I would just like to respond to a couple things and say that the City is looking at what's been going on there and some of the ordinances that have been violated. And we have, we are taking the proper action at this point. And I know that the city attorney and the planning director is City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 reviewing the text of an ordinance that was faxed to us today. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to address the City Council? Okay, we'll move next on the agenda. PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDER REQUEST FOR AN ON-SALE INTOXICATING LIQUOR LICENSE, AXEL'S, 560 WEST 78TM STREET, (FORMERLY THE RIVERIA CLUB); CHARLIE RAE, INC. Mayor Mancino: Is the applicant here? Audience: Yes. Mayor Mancino: Oh! Before that, excuse me. Can you wait one second? Thank you. Staff report please. Don Ashworth: I keep forgetting that the ones Karen writes I end up getting. We have gone through, there has been an application to move the liquor license currently held by the Riviera Club over to Axel's River Grill. Again, the research that staff and public safety came back with shows that they have a very nice operation where they're currently at. Plans, everything conform. Staff is recommending approval. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Would the applicant like to come up in front of the Council now and say anything? You certainly don't have to, but you're welcome to. Please state your name and address. Charles Young: My name is Charles Young. I'm one of the owners and I didn't know if it made any difference but the, we had a tentative approval to put a patio on the front of our building and we do have a plan showing it. It would seat approximately 58 people and the plan that we had submitted prior to this time did not have that on there. We just picked this up today and it does show it and we would like to proceed and attach the patio to the building and there's a plan here if somebody would like to take a look at it. But apparently it was approved or somebody had given us some type of approval to be able to build a patio onto the front. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Mr. Young, tonight we're not going to be approving or disapproving the patio. Okay. Charles Young: Okay, okay. Just the, okay. Mayor Mancino: Just the liquor license. Charles Young: We can get you a plan of this if somebody wants to take a look at it to see what it is. I didn't know if that was any part of it either. Mayor Mancino: I am sure someone would like to take a look at it. Kate Aanenson, our Planning Director will work with you on that. Okay. Charles Young: Good, thank you. Mayor Mancino: Any other, this is a public hearing. Anyone else wishing to address the City Council on this issue? On granting a liquor license. Seeing none, may I have a motion? Councilman Senn: Move approval. City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Councilman Engel: Second. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Engel seconded that the City Council approve the request for on-sale intoxicating liquor license for the new Axel's restaurant at 560 West 78th Street contingent upon receipt of the license fee, the surety bond and liquor liability insurance. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPEAL DECISION OF THE BOARD OF ADJUSTMENTS AND APPEALS TO ALLOW A 11 FOOT VARIANCE FROM THE 30 FOOT REAR YARD SETBACK FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF AN ENCLOSED PORCH, KlM BEAUCLAIR (CONTRACTOR) AND CRAIG & CHRIS WINTER (OWNER); 8372 STONE CREEK DRIVE. Cynthia Kirchoff: Thank you. This application was reviewed by the Board of Adjustments on two separate occasions. The first occasion the item was tabled for staff to research the definition of the rear yard in this case, since there is a flag lot that exists to the rear or to the west of the subject property. It was again reviewed on July 14th. At that time the Board did fail to approve the application by a vote of 2 to 1. The Board of Adjustment requires that there be a unanimous decision. Therefore, all three of the members would have had to voted to approve the variance for it would have been approved. Staff does recommend denial of the variance request for the enclosed porch because the applicant has not demonstrated a hardship and there is an opportunity for the applicant to utilize the back yard with the deck. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. I just have one question. Roger, before we go forward. Does the City Council, is it a simply majority? Roger Knutson: Yes. Mayor Mancino: Okay. For approval. So it is the simple majority. Thank you. Is the applicant here and would you like to address the City Council? Thank you. Go ahead please. Chris Winter: Well, this our third time and I'm not really sure what all needs to be said again but. Mayor Mancino: Plead your case as well as you possibly can and then. Chris Winter: It's 8372. I don't know if that makes a difference. Cynthia Kirchoff: Sorry. Chris Winter: That's okay. As they said there's a flag lot to the left and a creek to the right. It's I would consider a non-standard lot so we built a non-standard house. We would prefer not to go out the back. It is a heavily wooded lot and we would have to take down a couple trees do the side of the house, the left of the house. I'm not very good with north, south, east and west, especially with the way the house is set up and we did want to have it reconsidered having the lot re-evaluated with the side lot. I don't know all the variances. It's supposed to be what, 10 feet for a side versus the back or vice versa. Mayor Mancino: 10 for a side, 30 for a rear. Chris Winter: We just I guess wanted that. City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Mayor Mancino: So you'd like us to call your side, your rear yard your side yard? Chris Winter: Side rear, right. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Anything else? Chris Winter: I had, I don't know if you want to see this. I had just some other concerns .... from last time, I don't know if I have enough copies for everybody. There was the other option of flipping the deck with the screened porch. However, there's a half bath and so you'd be looking into the half bath if you were in the screened porch. So we'd prefer not to have that either. Mayor Mancino: Well you could put a curtain up or something. I've done that before also with a deck. The bathroom was overlooking the deck so we did put curtains up. Anyway, okay. Chris, do you mind if we ask you any questions? Ask, if there's council members. Any council members have any questions for Ms. Winter at this point? Councilman Berquist: The likelihood, I mean you could put it out the back, right? And how many trees reasonably would be affected? Those things are... Chris Winter: Probably two. Councilman Berquist: ... Chris Winter: Yeah, I believe right out the back and. Mayor Mancino: Chris, right off the back you have lawn. You have sod. From what I saw. Chris Winter: And a tree. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Chris Winter: I was going to bring pictures too and I'm not very well prepared tonight. Councilman Berquist: The other question that I had for staff. Say, let's assume for the moment that they acquiesce and said fine, we'll put it off the back and we lost those trees .... slide backwards, right? Could slide to where the enclosed porch is because deck setbacks are different than porch setbacks... Mayor Mancino: You can go 5 feet, yeah. Cynthia Kirchoff: The deck could go 5 feet into the setback so it'd have a 25 foot setback and the porch, as the plan shows has a 19 foot setback so it'd have to slide back a little further. Councilman Berquist: For the sake of argument, right now we've got two together. If they.., then we'd have a deck on the one side and a porch on the other, right? And from my perspective, I just don't, I don't see.., now all of a sudden we've got a deck within virtually that same amount of footage from the lot line and then we've lost tree canopy. City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you. Unless you have anything else to say, we'll bring it back to Council. Anyone else here tonight who would like to give any comments? Let's bring this back to Council. Councilman Senn. Comments. Questions. Comments. Councilman Senn: No questions I guess. Just comments. The biggest thing I guess I don't like about this request is the fact that the home is only a year old and if the home were designed properly in the first place to accommodate the deck, we wouldn't be in a variance situation. At the same time though I've got to balance that with the other issue which is I really would hate to see the mature oaks taken down to put up a deck, which is very much I guess the only alternative at least as I see what's before us so I guess I would have sided at this point with the majority of the Board of Adjustments and be for granting the variance. Primarily because of the trees. Mayor Mancino: Let me ask a question from staff. Can you put a, can you build a deck around the tree? The tree trunk? I mean a lot of times decks are done that way. You know you'll have a deck outside and it will go around the tree. I'm assuming if there's one tree there, and that's what we're talking about, could you. Councilman Berquist: The porch is what's going to take down the trees. Councilman Engel: Not the deck. Councilman Berquist: They'd move the porch over to here... Councilman Engel: You'd have to cut a hole in the roof. Councilman Berquist: The porch would take down the tree. Mayor Mancino: I can't tell. I mean I can't. It looks like it's out of the point but I can't tell. Okay, I thought I'd ask that. Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: You know I know the house is only a year old and Mark points that out but I try to be consistent on these and I think the homeowner always does what's best for the parcel. I know that we've got our variances. We've got our ordinances and once in a while we need to grant a variance. I don't want to see the trees go. I think they will. To me the greater loss is the trees rather than the 5 or 6 feet of turf between the property line. Trees are the bigger loss and I think they've probably already thought about that and they'd rather keep the trees. I'd rather see the trees stay so I'd give them the variance. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Berquist. Councilman Berquist: No, I voted with the majority at the Board of Adjustments to allow it to occur and that's the position I maintain. Mayor Mancino: Well I'm going to go against the.., even though we seem to have the majority and that is that when, and we talk about it up front. We do in the Planning Commission. When a builder, when someone has come in and they're looking for a lot to put the house pad on, etc., we ask them to make sure, the developer, builders, etc, that everybody wants to put a deck on. There isn't a new home south of us that nobody has thought about it, prepared that a deck is going to go on. A lot of times they also add screen porches. I mean that's the big thing now, especially where you're living. You have those trees and the City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 mosquitoes and everything else. So I very much feel that that should have been, our ordinance are up there. We're very proactive about letting people know what the setbacks are and that it should have been anticipated and taken into account at the very, very beginning because I would think that's one of the reasons why you buy the lot. Is to have that living area back there and to use that and I just don't want to get into the position that we're, that people are coming back after they build their houses without a deck and asking for variances. So I would not allow the variance. But let's go ahead and take a vote and may I have a motion please. Councilman Berquist: I will move approval of the request for the 11 foot variance for this property at 8372 Stone Creek Drive with the main reason, primary reason being the possible destruction of the canopy cover if we do not grant it. Mayor Mancino: Second please. Councilman Engel: I'll second. Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Engel seconded that the City Council approve Variance #98-5 for a 11 foot variance from the 30 foot rear yard setback for the construction of an enclosed porch based upon the primary reason being the possible destruction of the canopy tree cover if the variance is not granted. All voted in favor, except Mayor Mancino who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 1. Roger Knutson: ... need a building permit if they don't already have one. Mayor Mancino: And you will need a building permit to add on. Okay. Councilman Engel: That's what triggered all this I think. Mayor Mancino: They stopped you. Okay. Chris Winter:... Mayor Mancino: What's the next process step? Kate Aanenson: She'll get a letter from us telling exactly what she needs to do. That will go out tomorrow. Mayor Mancino: It will go out tomorrow telling you what you need to do. Okay, thanks for coming in. Councilman Berquist: I've got a question before we move on here. I don't remember at what time we talked about this. Even if it was having to do with this. But within the last few weeks we've had discussions regarding plat. Showing footprints. Oh, I know where it was. It was on that piece of land right off of Lake... Is there something like this on this piece? Kate Aanenson: Yes, every subdivision requires it. Every subdivision you see requires a 60 x 60 foot pad to be shown that they can, that every house fits on every lot. But there's a requirement that they do that. City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Councilman Berquist: Is there anything like, in looking at the staff report, is there anything that I could reasonably interpret as being.., of this page or any of the other documents. Cynthia Kirchoff: No, I didn't put it with the staff report. There is a map that does show, like Kate said, a 60 foot by 60 foot house pad. Because these lots had to be custom graded and had to have tree preservation. Or tree grading limits shown on the permit. Mayor Mancino: But there's also.., it's not only canopy coverage but their back yard that goes, it's just wonderful going down... Councilman Berquist: Well the reason I'm asking.., it doesn't affect you in one bit at this point. The reason I'm asking that is because a part of our, a large part of the discussion that we had at Board of Adjustments concerned how this lot would be configured when it... regarding how the thing would be oriented and what we would be looking at. Kate Aanenson: Well it's the pad. We don't know until the market forces are there and someone comes in and picks a home. We've got a footprint for that other lot but just like this lot, it probably wasn't our first choice to have the garage sitting out like this. We would have probably done it more compressed but then you have the homeowner that comes in and picks a certain, but not every home fits on every lot. Councilman Berquist: But the point is, at some point you had a landscape civil engineer do this .... lay the lots out and they had to give some thought to how a 60 x 60 whatever. Kate Aanenson: You see those at every preliminary plat. They're on there. Mayor Mancino: Well and hopefully, I mean it's not written in stone that it has to be on the lot that way. Councilman Berquist: No, I understand that. Mayor Mancino: But even a lot of the new homes that don't have the deck and the screened in porch in now, they have the header already up. They're built with the header in place.., hopefully everybody's kind of done some thinking... COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn, do you have anything to say on the Southwest Metro and what's been going on there. I know, I kind of pulled that out of the hat. Councilman Senn: Funny, I don't wear one. Mayor Mancino: Out of my hat. Nothing formal or anything. I just wondered if there was anything we should know. Councilman Senn: Let's see, main things that have been going on is the construction of the transit hub at I guess Prairie Center, what do they call it. Prairie Center Drive and Highway 5 is progressing. The completion of that is kind of really tied in with the completion of the work there as it relates to you know the intersection of Highway 5. Or I should say the reconstructed Highway 5. Southwest has also entered an agreement to purchase and is in the process, well let's see. It's already closed. They own it I guess. City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 It's that they're purchasing the old recycling center over off of 62 and oh I guess by Wallace Road and kind of like Baker Road there. Or not Baker Road, but I'm trying to think of County Road 4. If you know that area over there. 62 and TH 4 basically. Right by the golf course. The new golf course. Does that ring a bell? Well the old BFI, yeah the old, right. Yeah Reuters Recycling Center which was then owned by BFI which has now been sold to Southwest and that will be the new bus barn and maintenance facility for Southwest. Which will be a good location there for it and so from that, from a standpoint there between the, how would I say, the offices and the administrative staff and all that for Southwest will be officed in the new transit hub in Eden Prairie when that's completed and then you've got the bus barn so their major capital improvements I guess so to speak are out of the way. They have other ones that they'll need to address but that primarily relates to the transit hub primarily. Chanhassen/Chaska. Let's see. That's what most everything has revolved around lately over there. Mayor Mancino: ... light rail transit go through that hub at all? Have they talked about that? Councilman Senn: The, how do I say this? There's definitely the ability to do that if light rail transit ever comes out. I mean if you take effectively the corridor, I'm trying to remember. Don knows this better than I do. Don, what was the last corridor they were, I know they were jockeying back and forth between a couple of different corridors. Southwest. Which one did they end up lighting on? Was it kind of along the 212 corridor or? Don Ashworth: I thought for light rail they were considering this one right out here. Probably a good one to potentially invite Workman in to talk to the City Council on. Because he was kind of championing that cause. Councilman Senn: I mean essentially from Southwest's standpoint, I mean what they're continuing to expand on is the basis where they can create the hub. Have people drive to the hub. And you know effectively board the express buses for the...that have gone very, very well. They've initiated a summer program now which has gone very well. In fact they did a distribution through all the schools where they initiated daytime service out to like Valleyfair and it's a ring including kind of recreational types of places. Specifically kind of in tune for younger riders. The Prairie Center hub itself is going to be a lot more than what you see in, or kind of perceive there. I mean it will be the offices and it will be a hub but Southwest owns a great deal of land there that will eventually be developed into retail service predominantly. Mayor Mancino: Do you have any numbers as to, or know just off the top of your head, numbers... Councilman Senn: I should know that off the top of my head but I don't. But we do have a fairly significant reverse commute compared to most lines. And that's been marketed fairly heavily in relationship to the job fairs and everything else that have been jointly sponsored by Southwest and the businesses and there's a fairly decent commute. I mean some of the big problems there, I think they've been trying to deal with the shift times and that sort of thing but I know they've even initiated I think some services to help serve even the second shift on that on a reverse commute basis so. Mayor Mancino: I knew they had contacted businesses... The other thing I just wanted to make sure the Council knew under council presentations, I think we all received a County update for Carver County and one of the things that I saw on it was that the Highway 7 improvements that are going to be made are put off for a year to 2001 .... residents for Highway 7 here, etc and we had a long discussion on that. It was at that point for the year 2000. It has been moved back a year. It didn't say why but that's what I've read. City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Councilman Senn: Gee, we didn't have to have all that urgency that we were told to have for. Mayor Mancino: We have another year. Any other council presentation? Okay, then we'll move forward. Bob, I noticed you just walked in and we're through visitor presentation on our agenda. You're late. Bob: Yeah, I'm late. I thought it started at 7:30. Mayor Mancino: Oh, so you would have been early. Bob: I would have been early. Councilman Engel: She's fast tonight. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, we're fast tonight. Well let us go through this. How long is your presentation? Bob: Not very long... Mayor Mancino: Okay... and we'll be opening up visitor presentations for 5 more minutes if that's okay with other council members. Okay. Let's go onto the next one. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: OUTDOOR LIGHTING ORDINANCE DISCUSSION, KATE AANENSON, PLANNING DIRECTOR. Kate Aanenson: This report is an outcome of some concerns that have been voiced regarding the amount of lighting, specifically in the downtown area but it's kind of rippled through the entire community. Cindy spent some time and just tried to identify what our ordinance says. What other communities are doing and before we spent any more time on it we want to bring it back to you and get some direction. Really the first part of it is trying to explain the terminology and then comparing what other communities do. Researching literature from the APA, surrounding communities and then just some lighting information that was available. The main points I want to make is what we find with our ordinance is that we could be addressing is, while we look at 20 feet for generally what we try to get for interior parking lots, the city street lighting should go anywhere from 20 to 30 feet in height. In addition we do require a half foot candle at the property line but we do get much higher wattage in the middle of a site. And in some cases we have duplication. We have street lights and parking lot lights so there may be unnecessary duplication adding to the illumination which is a big concern. Is the actual amount of lumination and what it does to the night sky. So we put in what the city has in place and again what we would be looking at in preparing the ordinance, we've attached these, or Cindy put them in on the attachments. Currently what we have for lighting that just talks about and the half foot candle level. What we would be looking at is requiring them to be reflected downward at at least, at a minimum of the 90 degree. Be more specific as far as the height requirement which isn't addressed in our ordinance. At least it isn't in the commercial parking lot lighting. And then compare that to what we're requiring for street lighting. Street lighting does allow 250 watts on the collectors and the residential 150. And the light that we've had in some areas in town, the wattage may be too high so that'd be another issue we'd look at to see if we can get some uniformity there. Some standards in place as far as wattage. So looking at reflection, height of the poles, and then also trying to reduce the number of poles where we're not duplicating. See if we can put that into an ordinance. Again, what we have is not that far off what we've been doing but that doesn't mean we can't be doing a better job. With that, if you wanted us to take this to the next level, we'd be willing to try to put together an ordinance so really I guess what we're looking for is some feedback. 10 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Mayor Mancino: What were.., started this, the instigator. What were the two or three major points, two or three major concerns? Kate Aanenson: Glare. Mayor Mancino: One was glare. Kate Aanenson: And then just the loss of the night skyline because the illumination is not pointed downward, therefore you're losing some of the night sky. The glare affects your ability to see beyond the site you're at. It just kind of distracts your eye sight line and you can't see. If you're out in the sunlight and there's, somebody's got a flashlight, you're not going to notice but in the dark the glare distracts your ability to see beyond that point so that would be one issue. And just the loss of the night skyline. Those are the two major issues. Mayor Mancino: Any comments from Council members. Councilman Berquist. Councilman Berquist: Not a day goes by that I don't know that I don't know something. Mayor Mancino: You're getting older. You know the older you get, the more you know you don't know. Councilman Engel: Or you forgot something you thought you knew before. Councilman Berquist: I remember reading the letter, some of the letters that came from.., a lot of lights and I would drive from the Rec Center to my house and I noticed a number of lights that were on Coulter... To tell you the truth Kate, I mean when I first looked over this and I saw all of this stuff pertaining to lights, I was at a loss. And I don't have the first clue as to how to begin to revise this but I'll trust you. I would like to see some... Mayor Mancino: Mark Engel. Councilman Engel: I don't know, I guess when I first saw it I thought it was sort of an attempt to get ahead of maybe lights at the golf center, which I know came up as an issue a week or two ago. There's a lot more to it as well so this is beyond me to sit here and think I've got a great pulse for this. I don't. It's more... I don't have anything to say about it. I'll address it when it comes up. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: I've read a number of different, I'm going to say vantage points on the issue of lighting. If we're going to head into the issue, I think it's important that we, I'm going to say create a process in a form to hear all views on it because I think there are different views on it. No doubt with technology nowadays we can probably achieve better lighting standards than has sometimes been achieved in the past but there's also, how do I say, a substantial element of people who also view lighting from a security and comfort and you know to fill other purposes you know such as that. Especially in this part of the country where you know if you're going to effectively use a lot of the facilities we've created a good part of. Mayor Mancino: ... safe around. 11 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Councilman Senn: Good part of the year, you need lights to do it because of the shorter days but you know from that standpoint I would just simply, I mean I guess what I'm saying is I don't want to just simply run off into the issue and simply say that less light is better light. And an element saying that we less light is necessarily the right element. I think we need to you know, if we're going to look at the issue, I think we need to look at it broadly and again involve.., aspects of it so we make sure we kind of hear the overall picture rather than simply looking at it as another regulatory step and so. Mayor Mancino: Well I agree with that. I mean I can tell you, it's really interesting. This is a personal thing that happened to me. Last week I went walking down our main street in our downtown, went all the way from the west to Powers. All the way to the east with two other people. One's on the Chamber. Very, very active in retail in our downtown. Another is just a citizen and just our downtown from the east to the west and the lighting and the feelings that you get, whether you feel safe. Whether the lights hurt your eyes or not, was very interesting. So even if you're a pedestrian walking through our downtown, it's a very, very different and light level in our downtown going from one end to the other. So if you, you know some nights just when you're driving notice that. But there were certainly things that I think all three of us felt could, you still felt very safe but the, some of the lighting was a little obnoxious. It kind of hurt your eyes so they both made the remark, wouldn't it be nice if we limited or had a certain kind of lamp post that we used. And again these, this is from different residents. I'd like to go ahead and see the planning commission come up with something just, again not real regulatory but we had some policy and some standards to height and illumination and obviously be concerned with safety and what we're trying to do. Kate Aanenson: And we'll try to incorporate. Those will be kind of the three craters and then we'd also look at how that relates, street lighting which is under public works, engineering and then also looking at recreation and what they do for ballfield lights because that has a lot of spillover so what we'll try to do is put together an ordinance and then we'll share that with you as it goes to the Planning Commission. Mayor Mancino: Okay. That would be great. And if in the, you know as you're developing it you want to do a check-in, that'd be fine too. Thank you. With that, let's go back to visitor presentations and Bob, if you'd like to come up and, for the record state your name and address and yes please. Podium. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Bob Wold: My name's Bob Wold. I live at 730 Pioneer Trail, which is the first house west of TH 101 on Pioneer Trail. Recently it was brought to my attention that there was a great effort to accelerate the construction, acquiring of land and construction at 212. I'm not anti 212. I was anti toll road because I didn't think it was fair. I think we do need a better transportation system but I started checking and I got a hold of the Metropolitan Council's plans and talked to MnDOT and there were some things in there that were very interesting to me, and one of them was the new river crossing that's proposed for probably somewhere beyond 2010. And that river crossing would come across from the 169 bypass to 17, County Road 17 in Chaska. Go north and west to intersect with the new 212 and become the new 41 south. The problem I see with that is by driving the traffic that far north, it would mean that all the trucks and that sort of thing would be utilizing the new 212 through Chaska. I mean through Chan. And I'm not quite sure that funneling that traffic into the 494 corridor and accelerating that construction would be to our best interest. 494 is not scheduled to be widened and improved until 2008 and MnDOT says they don't have any money to accelerate that plan. When looking at a map of the area, if a river crossing was set up west of Chaska, and come across the land, 212. The old 212 from Cologne comes in just about on a level with 169 now. If that would be more of a truck bypass, feeding the traffic to the east on the 169 area, then possibly make the new 212 more of a parkway, similar to the 35E in south St. Paul, between there and the 12 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 river. I think this would be an improvement for us as a community. If you look at the Metropolitan Council's transportation plan you'll find that the great majority of the truck terminals are south of the river or just north of the river in Bloomington and Richfield. So to funnel the traffic that they're trying to funnel into the 494 corridor is really just going to create more gridlock and more congestion. I really think they should seriously look at upgrading the old 212 into a four lane road. Continue to upgrade Highway 5 into a four lane road and make more of a flow pattern, having four, or three-four lane roads crossing Chan. My other concern with the new 212 is there are two on ramps, or interchanges proposed in Chanhassen itself. They're very close together. The southern and western one is going to be at the new 17, just north of Pioneer Trail. It's not that far from the one on Lyman Boulevard and 101. My main fear is that if you put two interchange on a freeway that close together, it won't be long before the City Council will be petitioned very hard to make that commercial. And that would probably impact the property values and the business downtown. It would divide our community in two. If you look at an interchange on the western end where they're talking at CR 17, it really doesn't impact or affect the residents of Chan. It would be servicing the Chaska residents. And not that I've got anything against Chaska residents but we're using our tax base and our property for an interchange that really isn't updating our, or facilitating our community. And before we go ahead and really approve any accelerated plan for the construction of new 212, I really think we need to take a very serious look at how we want it built and possibly incorporating light rail into the corridor. I think that's another form of mass transportation but I think light rail would be the thing to come. I just think to rush this now, looking at what's designed, I think there's too much influence from the western part of Chaska as far as what they want to develop and I think we're going to pay the price here. Thank you very much. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. I see that someone else came in. Did you want to talk at all? Okay. ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION DISCUSSION. Mayor Mancino: Admin Section. Any questions? Councilman Berquist: I had a question on Dave Obee. Councilman Berquist: Which one, I'm sorry Steve? Councilman Berquist: Dave Obee. He's the land across from, across Highway 7... Option 1 is not an option. Option 2. Mayor Mancino: Hold on... a second until we get there. Thank you. Councilman Berquist: Who's familiar with the staff discussion? Don Ashworth: Kirchman and Hempel are the two that have been in most of the discussion and I think Anita was partially. Mayor Mancino: Why is number one not an option? Councilman Berquist: They'd have to put in, yeah well... Option number two...two properties. Two of our... 13 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Don Ashworth: Well, no. There's three larger parcels. It's one of how sewer would, well maybe your point is that one of the three.., have sewer over to it? Councilman Berquist: Right. Don Ashworth: Oh. Okay. Councilman Berquist: Is there another parcel that would benefit from it? Don Ashworth: I believe there is and I also, all three of the parcels you know if they were combined together you could have a much different density situation than you currently have there with those three houses. It's a pretty big piece of property. Councilman Berquist: So I read this quickly and what came to my mind was that we really didn't... anything that was.., didn't already know and.., but what you're saying is it is helpful to him? ... be able to resolve the issue one way or another? Don Ashworth: I don't think so. I mean he had a closing set up for the house last week. He doesn't care to take and subdivide. He would just as soon kind of just ignore the failing septic system and I guess that's kind of it. Councilman Berquist: ... Don Ashworth: Yeah. It seems to me as though that somebody getting that property could go through a subdivision. Mayor Mancino: Well you'd have to go through Shorewood Oaks... Any other questions? Councilman Senn: On the Admin? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Councilman Senn: I'm not sure if this was part of the Admin or whatever but it was part of our packet. There was a July 22nd letter, admin, or what is it, Cinema marquee sign. And chasing their blinking lights and it said basically kind of like tonight's our last chance to comment on it. Otherwise they're going to go ahead and do the following. Is everybody aware of that? Councilman Berquist: Staff sent Mr. Copeland a letter with a deadline of September 14th to have the sign plan approved by the Planning Commission and Council. Mayor Mancino: Well no. The sign design must be submitted to the City no later than July 31st. I don't think that gives... Councilman Berquist: ... rescinded an application. Councilman Engel: Because he wanted time for his partners or something. Mayor Mancino: I thought we had already set a time limit on this. For a temporary sign. 14 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Councilman Senn: Well we did. It's passed. Mayor Mancino: It's passed? Councilman Senn: It's passed. Gone. Long gone. Mayor Mancino: So we should pull the temporary signage? Councilman Senn: Well my question was, yeah. Why are we still messing around with this? I mean we keep messing around with it and we, everybody keeps telling us there's progress and every time there's progress, then the rug gets pulled out and there is no progress. Councilman Berquist: Without a planning staff member, it may be difficult to speak. How much of it is, is there any other involvement, any other delay involved in it because of the likelihood of there being additional theaters? The possibility of there being additional theaters. Mayor Mancino: It doesn't say that. Councilman Senn: Don't know. Nobody's ever said that but that's immaterial because our original approval wasn't based on it. Councilman Berquist: Is there anything that we need to do this evening? Councilman Senn: Well I mean the question is. Councilman Berquist: Unless staff receives different direction. Councilman Senn: Yeah. Councilman Berquist: A letter will be sent to Mr. Copeland today... Mayor Mancino: So today, the 27th? Councilman Senn: Yes. Mayor Mancino: He won't get it until the 29th. So Councilman Senn, are you saying you feel comfortable with the way this letter is or how would you like to change it? Councilman Senn: I don't. I mean I honestly don't. I mean this goes on and on and on. We've told the people what we want. We keep not getting what we want and it just seems to be kind of like, almost like a circular, revolving game to just keep the game going until who knows when. Mayor Mancino: So what would your suggestion be? Councilman Senn: My suggestion is, I have seen no motion put in front of the Council which alters our previous action which set a deadline. I suggest we follow up on our previous deadline with a letter and revoke the temporary permit. 15 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Councilman Berquist: What was that deadline? That previous deadline? Mayor Mancino: It was a while ago, I'm sure. Councilman Senn: Yeah. I was going to say we've more than abused it at this point. Mayor Mancino: I want to say it came in front of us in April. Councilman Berquist: But the fact is that none of us know. Mayor Mancino: No. Councilman Senn: I believe the final deadline.., right around June 1st I thought it was, but I'm not positive. Don Ashworth: We'll do just exactly that. If there's a significant problem of some type, we'll put it... day after tomorrow and if need be, we've already published the agenda for next Monday with strategic planning and the rest of that. But I don't see what's hurt just keeping the time tables as they were. Councilman Senn: I mean I'm open for ideas but I mean I wish somebody would tell me what we had to gain by you know continuing this ongoing saga. I mean if somebody has a better idea, please put it on the table but it seems to me that at some point you have to kind of say to people... I've got better things to do. Mayor Mancino: ... a couple weeks ago I asked Todd Gerhardt to just talk to Mr. Copeland and say exactly what Councilman Berquist asked. Is the reason this isn't being done or the sign isn't being taken care of is because of the addition of...cinemas. No, I asked him if he would find that out. I mean come in front of us and say, you know I put up a sign, a real sign but I know.., and I never got a reply. Because that was my question too. That's the most common sense one is the reason that he is stalling, waiting, whatever you want to call it is because there's something else that he's going to be doing there. But formally and graciously nobody has approached us in that vein.., it hasn't been done in writing or as far as I know to Todd. Don Ashworth: No, he's been in I would say, it's almost ironic. It's funny, well this wouldn't be. He'll probably come in next Monday because he always come in on work session nights when you have your plate full wanting to do strategic planning, whatever and then he begs to Sharmin and I to take and let him come before that work session and then I end up talking with Council. They say, just tell him we've already set the conditions. We don't need to talk about this item and I tell him, if you want to be on the regular agenda, you know talk to Karen and Sharmin. We'll publicize the thing. We'll put you on. Give us something in writing, what you want done so the Council can look at it and it never happens. Then back at the next session and it's the same story. Mayor Mancino: So I would like to... Don Ashworth: There will be something in News Alley, one way or the other. Councilman Berquist: So Sharmin's recommendation is fine by you? Mayor Mancino: No. Go back to the original. 16 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Councilman Berquist: ... she said she's sending a letter today telling him that they've got to submit acceptable designs by Thursday and the sign's got to be in place by October...to meet any of these conditions, which means submit it by Thursday... I don't know if that's exactly how the letter reads but that's how I interpret the... What else would you do? Mayor Mancino: I suppose if... Councilman Engel: I'm sure if he has an alternate, we just haven't seen it. If it's for those additional eight theaters. I'm sure he's got something. Councilman Berquist: ... one point he came in and made application of a... Mayor Mancino: So the 31st date isn't set and... Councilman Berquist: Well the way that this is worded... Mayor Mancino: ... already gone over several times... Councilman Senn: Well what this says, if you're going to stick to what it says in here, an acceptable sign design incorporating all elements recommended by the City Council must be submitted to the City no later than July 3 1st. That doesn't leave any room in my mind. If you're going to go that route versus the original route. Councilman Berquist: All he has to do is... what he's already submitted. Councilman Senn: No, because none of what he's submitted takes into account the recommendations and.., of the City Council. That's the problem why they haven't gone forward. Councilman Berquist: Friday, July 16th we received an application of the sign design... Councilman Senn: He withdrew it. Councilman Berquist: I understand. Councilman Engel: So he has one, he just has to put it in. Mayor Mancino: ... anyway. Councilman Senn: Well it says the only reason he withdrew it is he checked with his partners and he withdrew it so. Mayor Mancino: So I'm fine with that if other council members are. Councilman Berquist, are you fine with that? Councilman Berquist: I'm okay with that. Councilman Engel: I'm fine with it. You've got it. I'm fine. 17 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Mayor Mancino: ... okay. Councilman Berquist: Then the last thing on Admin I wanted to compliment Anita for giving Scott a heads up on what she perceives to be the traffic... Mayor Mancino: Council's adjourned. Councilman Senn: Whoops. I had one other thing. Just a follow up from last time. Just so it doesn't get lost and that is, Charles was going to come back with some recommendations to us on some areas, including the ones involving that letter for some trials on some new signage for speeds in residential neighborhoods. Don Ashworth: He'll know what you're talking about? Councilman Senn: ... and he was supposed to come back with some test areas. A few different test areas to do it in. What we were talking about doing was posting lower limits than the 30 on residential streets but doing it through full sized signs but in warning colors rather than. Mayor Mancino: The yellow ones. Councilman Senn: Yeah, the yellow signs rather than the white and black signs and making that a standard effectively through our neighborhoods as far as speed limits go. Mayor Mancino: Down to 25. Councilman Senn: Down to 25 and he was going to, like I say, check out. There was one area we had a letter on I know that we said let's do that and then he was going to, he said there were a could other areas we could pick to do a kind of a case, you know kind of a little, let's see how it goes type of thing. Don Ashworth: Just two quick alert things. I've got it marked down. I'll follow through on it. Mayor Mancino: The other thing is that in Edina too, there are several places there they have the yellow in 25 mph... Don Ashworth: We talked about having the State come in potentially this next Monday. I've made two calls over there. This was in regards to. Mayor Mancino: 2127 Don Ashworth: Yeah. And I've got no response from them. So I'll still work for this next Monday but I don't know that to be the case. Mayor Mancino: Is that Richard Stehr? S-t-e-h-r. Don Ashworth: No. I contacted Peggy and she's got a very difficult last name... I gave, I suggested five names to her. Richard Stehr's is one of those. I said I did not know who was in the best position to handle this but again they have not gotten back to me so I don't know what's going on. There was a second, oh. 18 City Council Meeting - July 27, 1998 Council asked for this formula thing as it dear with the tax thing. I have, I was trying to get back to Lori down at the County to verify some of the statistics I have but I guarantee I will have that with News Alley on Wednesday. Mayor Mancino: So we're not meeting now to work on this? Don Ashworth: You and I had kind of talked about that but I don't, I think it would be kind of unproductive until you've got a sample to look at. Remember me talking about I've got all kinds of pieces of paper and I'd like to try to drag them all together. I'm really, really close and I will have it done by Wednesday. Mayor Mancino adjourned the City Council meeting at 7:47 p.m.. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 19