CC Minutes 1998 08 24CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 24, 1998
Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:45 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the
Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Berquist and Councilman Senn
COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Mason and Councilman Engel
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Sharmin A1-Jaff, Cynthia Kirchoff, Anita Benson, Charles Folch,
Scott Hart and Todd Hoffman
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Mayor Mancino moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve the
agenda amending it to move item 8(e) to a work session after the regular agenda. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve the
following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
Resolution #98-78: Approve Change Order No. 1, Arboretum Business Park Public Improvements,
Project 97-1 (97-1B-2 and 97-1D)
Resolution #98-79: Approve Change Order No. 1, Arboretum Business Park Public Improvements,
Project 97-1 (97-1A)
Resolution #98-80: Authorize Preparation of Plans and Specifications for Well No. 8 Pumphouse,
Project No. 97-4A.
g. Approve Budget Allocation for Non-MSA Funded Items, Coulter Boulevard, Project 97-1B-2.
Amendment to Chapter 9 of City Code concerning Fire Code Regulations, Second and Final
Reading.
i. Springfield 4th Addition; Located on Sunnyvale Drive, Lundgren Brothers:
1) Approve Preliminary of Outlot D (0.7 acres) into two single family lots.
2) Approve Final Plat of Springfield 4th Addition Creating 10 Lots and Right-of-way.
3) Approve Development Contract/PUD Agreement and Construction Plans and Specifications,
Project 98-6.
Wetland Alteration Permit that will impact approximately 100 sq. ft. of wetland by placing a
boardwalk over a wetland to access lakeshore property, 1085 Holly Lane, Julie Sprau
1. Approval of Bills.
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
City Council Minutes dated August 13, 1998
Planning Commission Minutes dated August 15, 1998
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to table item l(e), Easement Agreement
with Metropolitan Council Environmental Services for Septage Disposal Site on Park Place. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
Mayor Mancino: We have some visitors that are going to come up tonight and they're on our agenda and
after that if anyone else would like to approach the City Council, they may so at that time.
CANDIDATE FOR CARVER COUNTY SHERIFF~ BOB BERGMANN.
Bob Bergmann: My name is Robert Bergmann. I live at 1081 Bluff Pass North in the city of Chaska. I
am one of the four candidates for Sheriff this year. I want to thank you for the opportunity of speaking
briefly before you. A lot of the questions that I'm asking or the more frequent question is, what makes you
the best candidate for Sheriff. I think some of the things that... I have seen a number of administrators
come and go... in their administrative style. I have seen the unique characteristics in each of them... I also
believe that the standards need to be higher for... I would expect no less of myself and no less of... lists
several points of my agenda...
Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much.
CANDIDATE FOR CARVER COUNTY SHERIFF~ RON HOLT.
Ron Holt: Honorable Mayor, Councilmen. Captain Ronald G. Holt. I live at 447 Hunter Drive,
Watertown, Minnesota. As you know I too am a candidate. I would just like to take a few minutes of your
time to thank this Council for your wisdom in allowing the political opportunity to exist in Chanhassen for
the public safety effort to be the success that it has. As you well know, I have only rarely had to appear
before you and that is because on a day to day basis I've worked so closely with the likes of Scott Harr, the
Chanhassen Public Safety Commission, citizens of the community and other city officials. As you also
know, your crime statistics in the city of Chanhassen are about as low as they could possibly be for a city
of your size with the demographics that you demonstrate. You have one of the best response times and you
have a cadre of men and women working in this area, on the public safety department and on the sheriff's
department who are totally and completely dedicated to the public safety cause. It's a pleasure to work
with Director Harr, all the other public safety officials and this council included over the years... I look
forward now to assuming the role of Sheriff and working with you in an entirely different perspective only
to enhance and increase the wonderful foundation of... Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Before we get to our...who's not really a visitor, let me open this for a minute and see if
anyone else would like to address the council under visitor presentations tonight.., please come forward.
Okay.
PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR~ SCOTT HARR.
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Scott Harr: Thank you Mayor. You asked that I appear tonight just as an opportunity to bring you up to
date on some things that are occurring and I always love to do so because we continue to do such
innovative things and I'm certainly proud that both candidates for Sheriff that appeared tonight made
reference to the wonderful things that are happening in Chanhassen because it's not just a paradigm shift
here. It's paradigm development. We are not locked into doing things the way that things have been done
here for decades because we haven't had a public safety department for decades. We're only about 12
years old and we've had the privilege of developing along with the community and that puts us in a most
unique position. Our opportunities continue because the Council allows us to have that with the support of
the public safety commission. I think the most accurate way that I continue to describe my job is kind of
like the Chinese acrobats spinning plates on top of the sticks. There's so many organizations that we work
with and just as I'm standing back thinking you know things are working pretty darn well, the one on the
end starts to wobble. That takes attention. And it's a constant effort. But let me talk a little bit about the
efforts that we do and then I'd like to spend a couple minutes talking about right now the most unique effort
we're undertaking. Traffic as you know is one of the biggest complaints that we have. The biggest areas
of concern and we've launched into several efforts cooperatively with other organizations. We've received
a very significant grant that we entered into with Carver County and the Chaska Police Department. We
received in excess of $25,000.00 to put officers on the road targeting specific safety violations that will
cost these three organizations, Carver County, ourselves and Chaska absolutely nothing. Officers
participate as off duty work and this is really exciting because they're working specific geographic areas
and specific safety violations. We routinely participate with joint efforts in communities that we work with
because then they come in and help us often times with speed enforcement efforts during the holidays.
Again this costs us nothing because of the cooperative relationship we have. Team crash has been one of
the most intriguing efforts that we've been involved with because they've undertaken to put number
statistics to violations, to accident areas and to be looking at creative ways to address these problems and
unfortunately all of these efforts came about because of the fatal accidents we've had, or because of the
complaints that people have. We see traffic violations day to day with the increase in traffic and we're
doing things by working with the agencies that we interact with. Narcotics enforcement is a huge concern,
particularly of parents who have middle school and high school age children. This is another area that
you've been great in supporting us on by allowing us for over 12 years now to be a charter member of the
Southwest Metro Drug Task Force. In that 10 years our cost has not increased one bit. I think that's very
noteworthy. We continue to do what Governor Carlson throughout his administration has urged all
government agencies to do and that is to pool resources for efficiency, synergy and fiscal responsibility and
at the joint council commission meeting last Monday night John Wolf, the Fire Chief, was talking about our
incredibly low costs for fire protection and law enforcement. And we work with the Department of Natural
Resources and we've already been meeting with them anticipating the hunting season coming upon us. To
prepare to try to keep recreational activities, and snowmobiling soon, alive in Chanhassen but recognizing
it's safety impact on the community. So it's very exciting to have so many organizations working together.
And as an example I would mention on Friday afternoon, rather late in the day I was provided with some
intelligence information that we had a potential problem Saturday night. Something that if it developed in a
way that it had the possibility to, there's no way in the world that the one or two deputies working Carver
County or Chanhassen from Carver County could handle it. Within an hour we had a meeting with the
State Patrol, the Sheriff's office, Chaska Police Department, Ridgeview Ambulance and our fire
department to make contingency plans for this event. Fortunately, by working with the people involved we
were able to make sure that nothing did evolve, but to have so many people gather so quickly for a single
effort just I think is fantastic and I appreciate all of that.
Mayor Mancino: Scott, that party at my house wasn't that loud.
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Scott Harr: Tonight I'd like to spend just a moment to talk about what I think is the most exciting visible
effort we're doing jointly right now with Carver County, and that's utilizing two Clinton cop positions.
Two federally funded police positions. One through Carver County, one through Chanhassen.
Unfortunately Kyle from Carver County's on vacation this week but I asked Carrie to join us. We entered
into a new effort through using our Clinton Cop positions to help us maintain the same number of patrol
hours we had for going on five years now. By not just buying more and more patrol hours but by actually
and precisely deciding what it is we need to have done. And what we need to have done is respond to the
incredible recreational interest, community activities and the specific concerns that people express. What
we've developed is a community oriented policing team made up of our two community oriented police
officers, federally funded, a supervisor and a representative from the County and Chanhassen. They all
meet weekly. The big group meets monthly and they're developing some really exciting programs based on
what they're seeing in the community. Not just boiler plate things but specifically for us. The bicycle
program is one that I have to admit is new since I worked the road and I looked at it questioningly when
Kerri and Kyle suggested following up on this. And with embarrassment I know on Kerri's part I'm going
to ask her to give you some statistics and her card but I couldn't be more pleased when we have Kerri with
the Chanhassen connection, Kyle with his county patch, working together in the parks, being seen and
you'll see in these one month statistics that on their bikes, out there in the community they're making some
significant contacts. It's really exciting and we get so many positive comments from people. They're
already anticipating as a team what they want to be doing in the winter and because recreational
enforcement as we call it, water patrol, and in the winter, snowmobile enforcement continues to be a
concern here, particularly with the ever increasing number of people utilizing these resources. Kyle and
Kerri came to me and said, could we take the one day class of the DNR to help certify teenagers and
snowmobile operations. They're our target population for problems and so they saw an opportunity and
are going to be doing that together. They do a lot of things in the school. A lot of the totlot programs.
They were working the safety camp this year. And it is so fun to have a continuing effort and things
continue to develop between us and the county. And you all know how proud I am of that. So if we could,
I'd just like Kerri to comment a little bit on what her experiences have been working bicycle patrol
specifically.
Kerri Nolden: My experience as working bicycle patrol has been great. It's kind of a unique opportunity
to be on a bicycle and you know tooling around the city. Going to the parks. Making contacts with the
kids. You know handing our safety citations. Of course those are the hamburger coupons that we get
through McDonald's here in Chanhassen and we hand those out to kids that actually have their bicycle
helmets on and operating their bicycles in a safe manner and we find that as a really positive contact. The
kids are surprised. You know a couple times they've been like, what did we do wrong and it's like you
know you've got to calm them down and say you haven't done anything wrong. We just want to say
you've done something really good and making a positive contact. You know hand out a couple of football
cards and of course we're always carrying our stickers to hand out to kids because that's the number one
thing, you know is waving at the police and can we get a football card you know or a sticker or something
so we've made a lot of positive contacts that way. Our findings on bike patrol is not a lot of people
imagine the police to be on a bicycle tooling around the city and our contact as you'll see, we've made a lot
of enforcements being in the parks, on the streets. We actually make traffic stops and we've had a couple
drug related contacts that we've confiscated drugs or and their narcotics off a person.
Mayor Mancino: On the bike?
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Kerri Nolden: On bicycle. Yep so, it's kind of interesting. We also spent a couple days out at the Carver
County Fair. Made a DUI arrest as well and you know it's kind of interesting being out there and people
don't imagine you know you'd be on a bicycle. You know a police officer pulling you over but you see a
lot of different things in a whole different perspective when you're on a bicycle rather than a squad car.
And it's good exercise too. On the hot and humid days I could, you know I'd rather probably be in a squad
car with the air conditioning but a lot of positive things and a lot of you know different things. We're
figuring out you know what works best and what we can look forward to next year you know if the season
ends up in the fall.
Mayor Mancino: Do you usually make the rounds to most of the neighborhood parks?
Kerri Nolden: We try to make the rounds there. We're also on the road as well. The trails. We hit mainly
you know like Lake Ann, Lake Susan and Lotus Lake and try to get down more by like Bluff Creek
Elementary. You know usually where the kids are hanging out and then Carver Beach area as well as
Kerber Pond so we're trying to assess you know where the problems are and kind of heading towards those
areas as well as making the rounds in the neighborhood so those are what we've doing.
Scott Harr: One of the comments that was made by a group of retired police officers in Iowa in January
when I was down there burying my grandmother. My grandfather is a retired police captain in Mason City
so their group acted as pallbearers and I said what do you see as the biggest change over the decades
literally in law enforcement? And they said that the police have gotten away from community interaction
because of squad cars. Back when there were horses, motorcycles, cops walking the beat. A personal
relationship developed. Squad cars. Windows up. The air conditioning. Sunglasses. Really isolated us
from the community. By having something like this, and one of the things Kyle and Carrie will do is stop
and go downtown and go business to business. Introduce themselves. Follow up on the tobacco
ordinances. Follow up on alarm issues. It's bringing that back to the community. I think it's very
exciting. So it's a pleasure to share that tonight.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Do you have any overall questions or questions that you would like to see
Scott coming back with?
Councilman Senn: Now you're active also in the water patrol stuff. Do you have similar information as
to?
Kerri Nolden: Not with me this evening but I can obtain that. I know we've been working Lotus and down
at Riley a lot. We seem to be getting some complaints down there and personal watercraft operations after
hours so we're trying to enforce that as well. Kyle and I on our bike shifts will you know occasionally
we'll go down and grab the Jet Skis when they're available, because normally those are taken up on the
Friday through the weekend and we're bringing those up the channel. We'll drop them in the lakes, you
know depending upon if there's enough you know problems out there. If there's enough watercrafts out
there to drop them in but we're certainly assessing the situation. That's one of the things that we've been
working with as well.
Scott Harr: And I should mention too, Kerri's been helping because of her water training, helping to search
the river for the missing 9 year old boy too so just another example...
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Mayor Mancino: Kerri, that would be great to have you come back with that information and we did get a
couple e-mails from residents on Lotus Lake. The slalom, the ski courses, etc. so it was.., information and
then kind of talk about it...
Scott Harr: Thank you.
PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR METES AND BOUNDS SUBDIVISION OF LOT 2,
BLOCK 1, RICE LAKE MANOR INTO TWO LOTS; LOCATED AT 8561 TIGUA LANE, ERIC
PETERSON.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Dave Nickolay 8500 Tigua Lane
Cynthia Kirchoff: Thank you. This is basically a simple lot split. Parcel 1 is a proposed site for a
relocated home from Edina. Parcel 2 contains an existing single family home. The subdivision does meet
all the requirements in terms of lot area, lot width and depth. Therefore staff does recommend approval of
the subdivision with the conditions in the staff report.
Mayor Mancino: That's it?
Cynthia Kirchoff: That's it.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Is the applicant here and would you like to address the Council?
Councilman Senn: I'll move approval.
Councilman Berquist: I'll second.
Councilman Senn: Don't want to waste your time.
Mayor Mancino: Do you have any questions?
Eric Peterson: Just some clarifications on the plans. I do understand.., have the tree count on the lot and
have a survey provide that. There is a logistics issue about timing and availability of a surveyor in order to
get that done and I don't know if we can have a certified surveyor locate those trees, or if I can perform
that with the help of a licensed surveyor and provide that information instead of a certified survey.
Mayor Mancino: Cindy, or what would you suggest?
Cynthia Kirchoff: Sharmin.
Mayor Mancino: Excuse me, we're passing the buck here. Okay, excuse me. One over. Sharmin, what
would you suggest?
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Sharmin A1-Jaff: ... requires a registered land surveyor to provide the information. Only the Council has
the authority to waive that requirement.
Mayor Mancino: And if they signed off, a registered one signed off for the applicant.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: A registered would not sign off on the survey unless they actually do the surveying
themselves.
Mayor Mancino: Would you feel comfortable with the significant trees that will be removed where
construction will take place? We've done that before haven't we when it's a very simple split like this.
Instead of the entire lot being surveyed but the area where the construction will take place.
Cynthia Kirchoff: Well staff did take that into consideration. However, we felt that there wasn't a great
deal of significant trees on the lot. So having the.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. When you say not a great deal, meaning saying there are 10 or 157 Do you have
any idea?
Cynthia Kirchoff: No, I can't say.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: There's a lot of canopy cover.
Mayor Mancino: But significant trees are what? Over 12 inch caliper.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: And over.
Mayor Mancino: Well I feel very comfortable having you work that out with staff. I don't know if the rest
of the Council does.
Councilman Senn: ... big issue with it in this case.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any more questions? Okay. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone wishing to
address the City Council on this? Either for or against, a property owner in the vicinity. Or somebody who
just would like. Okay. I'll bring it back to council. May I have a motion please?
Councilman Senn: Move approval.
Mayor Mancino: Is there a second?
Councilman Berquist: I'll second.
Mayor Mancino: And I'm assuming you're moving that for approval with conditions 1, the applicant and
the staff will work out the survey.
Councilman Senn: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Resolution #98-81: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve the Metes
and Bounds Subdivision #98-10, Rice Lake Manor Estates, as shown on the plans dated received
August 5, 1998, subject to the following conditions:
1. The applicant and staff will work out a tree survey for the new parcel identifying all significant trees
on the property.
2. Tree removal limits around the building pad shall be shown on the building permit survey. A
maximum of 20 feet is allowed around the building pad and as the width for the driveway.
3. Tree protection fencing shall be installed around any areas designated for preservation.
4. A maximum width of 20 feet shall be allowed for clearing vegetation in order to hook-up to utilities.
5. Prior to issuance of a building permit for Parcel I, a detailed grading, drainage, erosion control, and
tree removal plan shall be submitted to the City for review and approval. In addition, the Certificate
of Survey shall include all existing easements of record, the proposed driveway location and
proposed sewer and water lines.
6. The applicant shall be responsible for Surface Water Management fees pursuant to city ordinance.
7. The applicant shall pay the City GIS fees in the amount of $35.00.
8. The applicant shall escrow with the City $3,500.00 for the extension of water service underneath
Tigua Lane to the property line and pay the City sanitary sewer and water hook up charges pursuant
to city ordinance. The City requires a three week advance notice to perform the work.
9. The applicant shall demonstrate a minimum lot width of 125 feet on Parcel I to establish riparian
rights.
10. Full park and trail fees shall be paid in accordance with city ordinance.
11. Building Official's conditions:
a. The suitability of the existing soils to support a structure cannot be determined at this time and
will be investigated during the building permit and inspection process as necessary.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
SITE PLAN APPROVAL FOR AN 8~249.5 SQ. FT. MULTI-TENANT RETAIL BUILDING
WITH THE MAJOR TENANT BEING VIDEO UPDATE; LOT 1~ BLOCK 1~ SEVEN AND
FORTY-ONE CROSSING IN THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE INTERSECTION OF
HIGHWAYS 7 AND 41; KKE ARCHITECTS.
Public Present:
Name
Address
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Brian Pellowski
Ron Krank
5500 Wayzata Boulevard
KKE Architects
Mayor Mancino: And this is where I shop so be careful.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: The applicant is requesting site plan approval for the construction of an 8,249 square
foot multi-tenant retail building. The site is legally described as Lot 1, Block 1, Seven Forty-One Crossing.
It is located at the southwest comer of the intersection of Highways 7 and 41. The site is zoned
neighborhood business and a retail building is a permitted use in that district. Access for the site is
proposed to take place via right in only from Highway 7. And from Highway 41, across an existing
parking lot from the Seven Forty-One shopping center to the subject site. The site plan for the retail center
is reasonably well developed. The building is proposed to utilize materials to match the existing shopping
center located south of the subject site. And just briefly regarding the architecture of the building. Earlier
this evening there was some discussion regarding the southern elevation and maybe adding some additional
interests. Staff spoke to the applicant and we're recommending that a condition be added basically stating
that the southern building elevation be revised by either adding windows or additional landscaping, just to
break it up.
Mayor Mancino: Up to you and the applicant, okay.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: Right. The applicant will be presenting details on the architecture. Therefore staff will
move on to other areas. Parking for vehicles is located on the east half of the site and north of the subject
building. There is one area where the setback is 10 feet. The ordinance requires 25 feet. Staff is, the
bushes that are used along that 10 foot need to be revised to reflect coniferous type bushes and that's
another thing that we spoke to the applicant about and they're willing to do that. The ordinance requires
side yard of 15 feet. The applicant is showing 5 feet on the plans. That needs to be amended. Parking
islands show a width of less than 10 feet. The ordinance requires 10 feet. Again, minor changes to the site
plan. Staff is recommending approval with conditions outlined in the report.
Mayor Mancino: And with the revisions that you made to those conditions. And you might help us when
we go to make the motion to state those again if you don't mind. Thank you very much.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, is the applicant here? Please.
Ron Krank: Good evening. My name is Ron Krank. I'm with KKE Architects and my client Brian
Pellowski who also owns the shopping center you shop at, thanks you for shopping there and hopes you
will continue there shopping and hopes you will continue and go to the new building as well. If you're
going for a record tonight on a short evening, we'll help you along with that. We agree with everything
staff has said. We went through the plans with them at planning commission level. Except we have one
issue, one consideration we'd like you to think about. And that has to do with simply the two access points
at the top of the property. As you know, this is part of the shopping center area. This is a lot to the north
of the site and there's a drive that comes in off of the highway. The shopping center continues on and
there's an island there. It's just, we feel like this is all part of the shopping center. So the staff report,
traffic originally indicated that maybe this should happen and come back through here and around and into
the center... The bulk of the traffic's going to come from this direction, from County Road 41 and we just
feel that it just makes it a simpler arrangement. This is not a regional mall where you've got cars going all
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
over and traffic everywhere. We just feel it makes sense to be able to go from the center and drive through
into the development. Come back out as opposed to maybe doing this. Coming in and meandering through.
So that's the only issue we have and we'd like your consideration to allow us to have the plan in this area in
particular the way we had originally shown it. Otherwise we're happy with everything else and if you'd
like, I'd be happy to go through the design, the architecture, whatever but I'll leave that up to you.
Mayor Mancina: Okay, thank you very much Ran. Did you have pictures afwhat the.
Ran Krank: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: You're matching what's there, right?
Ran Krank: We're doing a little bit better than that. Ifyau can zero on this. This is the existing building.
It's a brick. It's about 14 ½ feet high. The windows are...high. There's a band of concrete block and
block above the entry and then block face. We think the proportions are a little squat in particular for a
small building and we also think that it'd be better to use primarily an all brick building except for the
block face. And given that this is a retail building we're doing, Video Update has their own criteria about
glass. We're providing a store front that's much higher than this. It's 9 feet high, though raising the glass
up a couple feet. And we're also doing we think a little different detailing with, there's a metal truss that
runs horizontally across the building. Here's another shot of it that shows that in more detail. And then
what they've done to accentuate the building, at the comer.., up above and they've got some block around
it. We're doing it a little bit different. We're taking that and just contemporizing that and maybe move
that.., sense of proportion. Maybe you can come over here a little bit with that. Can't do it? I move it this
way? Okay. The building we're proposing is 18 feet high so it's...higher. We're doing that for a couple
reasons. We want more glass. We want a better proportion. We want to hide some of the rooftop
equipment so that's why we're doing that and accentuating the front entry with a drivit system. We've got
some neon on the sides. Video Update does a lot more than...just relates better to the size of the building.
And then rather than using a steel truss system, we're having that built special. A little different proportion
because of this small building. But this would be the north elevation as you drive by... South elevation
that's been described...going to be offices on this side. So most likely it will be glass all the way across
here. Essentially that's, you know this is the back side... We feel we've made some improvements in
what's there. Be it proportions, the glass. More use of brick.., proportions of the metal.
Mayor Mancino: Any questions from council members for Ron at this time? I just had two and that is,
you will be doing, what I'm assuming is above the, around the north side, above the windows are going to
be that horizontal line that's on the other Video Update building?
Ron Krank: Yes. What we're doing here is this is a shadow line. This is in...this is a recessed, double...
probably neon...
Mayor Mancino: And that would also come along to each side...
Ron Krank: This is in the front here, here. We hadn't shown it but...we had it in this area and that's I
think... I'm sorry, here it is. That's right. That's the elevation. And that's that...
Mayor Mancino: You haven't convinced me yet of the, I mean I am in that parking lot a fair amount of
times and I come off of TH 41, not TH 7 so when I come off of TH 41, I have to stop where the cars are
exiting SuperAmerica and there's not really a stop sign there so it is kind of you know, you're kind of
10
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
questioning whether you should mm left and go to Video Update or you know whether the cars are going to
come forward. So I am concerned about having the two openings here just because there are cars coming
from all different directions. From SuperAmerica on the east side. From now they'll be coming all the way
through the parking lot. I would like to limit it to three.
Ron Krank: That's what we have, one, two, three.
Mayor Mancino: No, I mean one on yours.., what's happening. You can come this way, correct?
Ron Krank: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: And this is...to have a fourth area where they can also come into that little.., fairly
confusing to me.
Ron Krank: How we've looked at it. Anyone coming in this direction is going to do that. That's real easy
for them... They might do this. They might do that. We're just thinking as someone is parked here in the
shopping center, they can do this. They can do that. It's just takes some maneuvering. It just seems like it
flows more simply and traditionally in a shopping center without... They would do that. It's just to make it
easier to go through... We just want to make it simpler or easier for people. We still have it defined with
an island so they know they can't just cut across it... with additional curb cuts versus just this way or that.
Mayor Mancino: But it takes away the pedestrian friendliness...
Ron Krank: Well we're thinking people would probably be walking along this area.
Mayor Mancino: And there will be a sidewalk there?
Ron Krank: We will stripe that... A sidewalk is hard to have there because the plows eventually rip that
up... We would do something there to identify...
Mayor Mancino: ... walk on the south side of the building or on the east side of the building?
Ron Krank: We had originally we had a 5 foot walk. Now we have 15 feet so we'd probably have the 5
food walk and then 10 feet of landscaping.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any other questions? Is there anyone that would like to address the Council
on this?
A1 Klingelhutz: ... deleted on the consent agenda?
Mayor Mancino: Oh, we did table one.
Councilman Senn: We tabled the Metropolitan Council environmental services for.
Mayor Mancino: So l(e).
A1 Klingelhutz: l(e)?
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Mayor Mancino: Approve easement agreement.
Councilman Senn: That was tabled.
Mayor Mancino: And the rest of them passed. Anyone else wishing to address the Council on this issue?
A1 Klingelhutz: Well I've got a question to ask. Item deleted that showed up in the Villager...
Mayor Mancino: I don't know but we'll get to that as soon as we get through with this one. And right now
we are under new business, number 7. Okay. So if there's anyone here tonight that has any, would like to
talk to the council on item number 7 under new business. Okay, bring it back to council. Councilman
Senn. Any comments, questions or remarks?
Councilman Senn: No.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Berquist.
Councilman Berquist: The only comment that I would make is that I believe that that curb cut is...thinking
it is, I don't have any problem with it. It would seem like traffic could flow better that way. Other than
that, no ma'am.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. I have no other comments either. May I have a motion.
Councilman Senn: Move approval.
Mayor Mancino: With the modification given by staff?
Councilman Senn: Yes.
Councilman Berquist: I would ask, can you give a short list...
Councilman Senn: I wrote parking island but that's not.., can you just run down those additional
conditions, quick recap.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: The south elevation.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: Okay. We need to add to condition number 3. Replace the red twig dogwood and
Wichita blue juniper with coniferous type bushes. And add condition number 20. The southern building
elevation shall be revised by adding windows or additional landscaping.
Councilman Senn: Incorporated into the motion.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much. I will second the motion.
12
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Councilman Senn moved, Mayor Mancino seconded to approve Site Plan Review #97-4 as shown on
the site plan dated received July 9, 1998, and revised on August 4, 1998, subject to the following
conditions:
The materials used to screen the trash enclosure shall be the same type of brick used on the
building.
The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting any signage on site. Provide a detailed
sign plan for review and approval. The signage shall comply with the ordinance requirements.
Brick shall be used on the base of the ground low profile sign if a sign was erected. If a neon band
was incorporated onto the exterior of the building, and it falls within the city sign ordinance
specifications, it shall be limited to the north entryway of Video Update. No signage will be
permitted along the southern elevation.
Ornamentals planted along highway 7 should be salt tolerant. Replace crabapples with Japanese
tree lilac or other such salt tolerant species. Replace the red twig dogwood and Wichita blue
juniper with coniferous type bushes.
4. Increase under story plantings in buffer yard to 6 trees.
5. Increase all parking lot islands and peninsulas to 10' in width.
Install tree protection fencing around existing vegetation on the west side of the property prior to
construction.
The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the city and provide the necessary
financial securities as required for landscaping.
8. Fire Marshal conditions:
Install a P.I.V. (post indicator valve). Valve location must be approved by the Fire
Marshal.
9. The applicant shall provide details on material colors used on the building for review and approval.
10.
Concurrent with the building permit, a detailed lighting plan meeting city standards shall be
submitted. Lighting Plans shall include photometrics, wattage, treatment for glare, etc.
11. Building Official's conditions:
a. Meet with the Building Official as early as possible to discuss commercial building permit
requirements.
12.
At time of building permit issuance, the site will be subject to the appropriate number of sewer and
water hookup charges based on the number of SAC units determined by the Metropolitan
Environmental Services Commission.
13
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
13. The applicant shall intensify the landscaping plan along the westerly slope to restore the existing
buffer to the original condition or better.
14. The applicant shall provide detailed storm drainage for a 10-year, 24-hour storm event to the city
engineer to review and approve prior to issuance of a building permit.
15. The site plan shall be revised to include the following: a) The radius on the north/south drive aisle
in the southeasterly comer shall remain at 20 feet, b) The parking lot and drive aisles shall be
redesigned in accordance with City Code 20-1118, c) Provide minimum 10 foot landscape median
between parking lot and north/south drive aisle from Trunk Highway 7, d) Delete southeasterly
driveway entrance from existing parking lot, e) Erosion control measures in accordance with the
City's Best Management Practice Handbook.
16. Prepare a traffic signage plan for review and approval by staff.
17. Recalculate impervious surface percentage.
18. All roof top equipment shall be screened from views.
19. The building setback along the southern property line shall be increased to 15 feet.
20. The southern building elevation shall be revised by adding windows or additional landscaping."
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Mancino: Next is Council presentations. Al, do you want to come up and ask your question
please? Come to the podium.
A1 Klingelhutz: What was that?
Mayor Mancino: Would you like to come up to the podium. State your name and address and ask us the
question that you want to ask. We're going to make you move.
A1 Klingelhutz: I'm A1 Klingelhutz at 8600 Great Plains Boulevard. I read the Council agenda and I see
some things that were on the consent agenda in the Villager that are not on this agenda. But I see one of
them is going to be brought up again on administration presentations.
Mayor Mancino: And which item is that?
A1 Klingelhutz: D.
Mayor Mancino: D. Oh, yours is Highway 212 memorandum of understanding. Yep. That will come up
still.
A1 Klingelhutz: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: How many people are here tonight for that? Whoa. We've got a large crowd for that.
Okay. That will be coming up. We'll move forward with tonight's agenda.
14
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
A. CONSTRUCTION SERVICES, 1998 TRAIL PROJECT, PARK & RECREATION
DIRECTOR.
Todd Hoffman: Thank you Mayor Mancino, members of the City Council. Brief recap. 1998 marks a
historic year for this department and this city in park and trail capital improvement projects. The City
Council will entertain 20 some years of public improvements in this area in a single summer in 1998. With
that comes the joy of seeing these improvements installed. With that also comes the frustrations and the
headaches of seeing these projects managed and installed in an efficient and economical manner. Tonight
we are faced with the decision regarding construction services for Howard R. Green. Our consulting
engineer on our 1998 trail project. The trail project is the second largest, third largest actually of our
projects as we go through underneath open space acquisition and park, community park construction.
Howard R. Green has been working with this city since October of last year and where we are at today on
the contract, or what we need to talk about tonight specifically is inspection services. I believe most of you
have met Paul Kauppi. He has been on the project day in and day out since the contract has started with
Midwest Asphalt. We are fast approaching the day when our contract, as currently approved with Howard
R. Green, will run out as far as cash in the bank account for Paul's wages from Howard R. Green. Dave
and Paul met with me, it's been nearly a month now since we met to discuss that. The City Council has
had the opportunity to at least think about it for two weeks and we'd like to resolve this matter here this
evening. In the original letter dated August 5th from Dave Nyberg, he talked about the $30,100.00
allocation will not be sufficient, adequate to sustain the budget and that perhaps upwards of $33,000.00 in
additional expenditure would be needed. Dave and I talked about that. Where we have settled on an
agreement to present to the Council is that we would like your authorization to proceed with inspection at a
~ time with a maximum not to exceed amount to complete this project of $25,000.00. And if we can, if
things, if the weather dries up, construction progresses smoothly, and we don't need Paul here on the
project, we'll just keep him in the office in an attempt to reduce that even farther. I handed out a budget
sheet earlier to the City Council which details the budget, and we are winding down. We're at about
$100,000.00 left to go on this project and so it's getting to be close on a million and a half dollar project
where we don't want to incur any additional costs to take chunks out of that $100,000.00 that we have
remaining so, it's in all of our best interest to keep those expenditures, as well as we can. However, as the
Council has discussed, without these inspections services we do not believe we can complete the project as
promised to our residents without those services. With that, Mayor Mancino if you'd like to hear from
Dave Nyberg in more detail. If you have questions with me, I'd be glad to answer those. With that said,
it's the staff's recommendation that we do approve a contract amendment not to exceed $25,000.00 for
inspection services for Howard R. Green on the 1998 trail project.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you Todd.
Councilman Senn: I have some questions for Todd if I could.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: Todd, what's the overall budget, original budget for the trail segment or portion of the
referendum?
Todd Hoffman: $1.54 million.
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Councilman Senn: Okay. And how much of that has been spent to date?
Todd Hoffman: Cash expenditures to date is $501,410.63. Encumbrances to date are the remainder of the
Midwest Asphalt contract at $842,893.70. The remainder of the Howard R. Green contract at $94,144.25.
So our balance as of August 17th is $101,551.50. That's on a sheet, executive summary that you have.
Mayor Mancino: Now that doesn't include the $33,000.00.
Todd Hoffman: No it does not.
Mayor Mancino: Or $25,000.00.
Todd Hoffman: Correct.
Councilman Senn: So the hundred, roughly hundred thousand that is left out of that whole budget, this 25
would come out of that. Do you expect more requests beyond that?
Todd Hoffman: Not from Howard R. Green as we talked about earlier but there are the attorneys costs to
come out of there and we have about eight more easements to lock down yet so there are additional
expenditures coming out of there.
Councilman Senn: Now when you say the attorneys costs are coming out of there, is that all of the
attorneys costs or just the remaining attorney costs?
Todd Hoffman: All of the attorneys costs have not been booked against this project to date.
Councilman Senn: Which was an item, if I remember right, about $250,000.00?
Todd Hoffman: $250,000.00 included both the cost of the easements, the hard cost of the easements. The
cost of the easement preparation documents. The cost of the appraisal ....
Councilman Senn: So I guess what I'm trying to get at is, if this additional change is acted upon in the
affirmative, we would not be in the situation where we will be going over budget and we will not be in a
situation where we're taking dollars away from trail construction to pay for this stuff? That's what I'm
trying to find out.
Todd Hoffman: Take money away from?
Councilman Senn: What I'm saying is, are you going to stay on budget?
Todd Hoffman: I certainly hope so. If the Council wants to make this recommendation tonight contingent
upon me getting those exact numbers from the attorneys, I can certainly do that. However, we do need to
keep our inspector working out there in the field.
Mayor Mancino: Well how long, you'll know by next Monday, correct? Okay. And you could
certainly...table it until we were sure of these numbers. We have eight more easements so we'll know...
the 88 for sure and we can speculate on the last 8 I'm assuming.
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Todd Hoffman: Correct.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Senn: Well if it goes over budget then we either have to cut expenditures or we have to
appropriate additional funds or we have to cut back on footage of trails we're building.
Mayor Mancino: Plus there's no other pile to pull from.
Councilman Senn: Yeah. I mean it seems to me we have to know the facts before we make a decision.
Mayor Mancino: ... we've already used capital improvements on park and rec.
Todd Hoffman: Up to $300,000.00.
Mayor Mancino: $300,000.00. So we don't have a lot of full piggy banks...
Todd Hoffman: The Council's concern was my concern as well. That's why I made the call. I can only let
you know that Mr. Jamnick was very comfortable underneath this number but I as well would like to know
the exact numbers.
Mayor Mancino: I would feel much more comfortable having in all these costs and knowing exactly where
we are before we make this decision. I hate to put you off another week but I'd like to know where the
costs are. So that we can make a good decision.
Todd Hoffman: Yes. I'd forward those to you and then put this on the consent agenda for next week, or
the work session next Monday.
Mayor Mancino: Would you like us to make a motion? And do you feel comfortable with that
Councilman Berquist?
Councilman Senn: It's not slated for any action tonight. I don't think we have to one way or the other.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Well thank you for getting all the numbers together for us. So that we
could take a comprehensive look at that.
C. TRAIL ALONG GALPIN BOULEVARD~ PARK & RECREATION DIRECTOR.
Mayor Mancino: I will abstain from any voting or any comments since I happen to live at this address.
Staff report please.
Todd Hoffman: Thank you Mayor Mancino, members of the City Council. On Monday, August 7th at a
City Council work session Mr. Sam Mancino, who resides at 6620 Galpin Boulevard made a presentation
to the City Council regarding the affect of the 1998 trail project in his property. And Mr. Jim Ronning who
also resides there at a neighboring residence at 6640 Galpin Boulevard was also present. Mayor Mancino
left the room during that presentation. In this area of the trail, we are constructing a 14 foot driving lane, a
curb, and then the cross section of the trail is a 2 foot bituminous boulevard. A 2 foot grass boulevard. Or
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
a grass boulevard would be more common but if that minimal width is 2 feet, we would like to see asphalt.
And then 10 foot of trail. At this property, that's 10 feet of bituminous, the 2 foot of boulevard, and the 10
foot of trail causes an impact to an existing row of trees that would require some trimming. Mr. Mancino
is, would simply like to see those trees left in their existing state. He's also concerned about runoff and
drainage and those type of things in this area. City Council at that presentation, I believe at least a
majority did not have an issue narrowing the trail in front of this property to 8 feet. But at the same time
staff was directed to consider the ramifications of making this change uniform from this property north to
the terminus of this trail at the north end of Galpin Boulevard. In doing so, I'd like to note for the Council
that this project has had substantial impacts on the city residents who reside along these trail corridors.
The 1998 trail project entails 7 miles of bituminous trail. Six separate segments. As a part of the planning
you will recall that public process was a major influence on how the staff, the park commission, the park
task force, the City Council managed the project. We knew our residents would want to know how this
was impacting their property and so we sent out the invitations to hold on site meetings. We have done
that. In dozens and dozens of cases, and now I think if you added up all the meetings, we're probably over
100 on site meetings out in the projects themselves. Nevertheless.
Mayor Mancino: Including the Mayor.
Todd Hoffman: Including the Mayor. Nevertheless, throughout the project I can tell you that we have cut
down dozens and dozens of trees as a part of this project. We have cut down, there was a couple of trees
on Powers Boulevard that came down. We worked with the property owner. They had the choice, the trees
were in the right-of-way. A choice of going around the trees into the yard, or cutting the trees down and
those two large trees did come down. But we've cut down trees in a lot of other areas. And then we've
also trimmed hundreds and hundreds of trees and so even though we have stated to the Council and stated
to our citizenry that we will attempt to minimize the impact wherever possible, we have, the project has
impacted not only personal property but right-of-way which there has been people who live adjacent to a
tree that's a portion of their yard and we appreciate that very much in our business because people take
care of that right-of-way. And then we are, do not have to go ahead and do that. Staff, so speaking
directly to shall this be a unilateral change down to 8 feet of width from this property north, staff does not
believe this to be in the best interest of the project for a variety of reasons. First, we have expended
considerable time, effort and resources in planning for the approved alignment. Easements have been
drafted based on that alignment, surveyed, acquired and paid for. Some new design drawings and
engineering documents would be required if we changed it, if we eliminated that two feet. A new round of
meetings with some residents would ensue. How does this now lessen the impact to my property? The two
feet being removed. Maintenance efforts become more difficult, and I can't downplay this enough. As a
staff, we have a weekly staff meeting where we talk about their concerns. Their job, day to day and how
they provide the residents with maintenance. And a pickup truck plowing snow fits nicely in a 10 foot
pavement section. You take away that 2 foot bituminous median area and a pickup truck's outside tires
will routinely drive off of that and crack that edge of 8 foot trail. This typically occurs in the early winter
when we get our first snowfalls and we must plow and the trucks are up there before we have frost. And
then likewise in the latter part of the year when some of the frost is coming out of those first 4 or 5 or 6
inches of topsoil when we plow those last snows. So the maintenance is an issue. Trail use and safety is
compromised. This speaks directly to the state aid requirements that we talked about so often in that the
state aid requirements speak to the 14 foot driving lane, the 2 foot boulevard, and the 8 foot section of trail.
And then if we do in fact reduce that by 2 feet, the resulting positive impact from my vantage point is really
negligible on that northern half. So with that it's recommended, in light of the council's direction at the
August 17th work session, that the Galpin Boulevard trail be narrowed to an 8 foot section from the south
18
City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
property line of 6620 Galpin Boulevard north to the driveway entrance of that property and then north of
that point it is recommended the trail be constructed per the approved plan.
Councilman Senn: I have several. Todd, question. I'm a little confused because in your presentation when
you start out you kept talking about a 10 foot trail section and a 2 foot boulevard but that aside, I mean our
standard's always been an 8 foot trail. And our whole systems 8 foot trails.
Todd Hoffman: 8 foot off street trails, correct.
Councilman Senn: I understand that. Okay. And effectively all of a sudden it seems like our standard's
becoming a 10 foot trail. I mean the use of the word boulevard or any such thing here seems to be kind of a
little out of character. And what you're doing is you're putting in a 10 foot paved trail. From curb in 10
feet. Correct?
Todd Hoffman: That's not the, when you say we have a standard 8 foot trail section. We have a standard
8 foot trail section which includes a median between that section and the road. In this case it happens to be
that instead of sodding a 2 foot median which we prefer not to do, we would, we could recommend that you
put pavers in there. Put some other treatment but instead of doing that, just paving it seems to be the
simplest answer. And so call it what you like. A 10 foot trail. An 8 foot trail with a 2 foot median, it's
just an attempt to describe what the plan entails.
Councilman Senn: But the entire system we maintain effectively is 8 foot trails.
Todd Hoffman: 8 foot trails. The reason for the maintenance issue here is because you're facing falling
off of a curb whereas when we plow these other 8 foot trails, you can stay pretty well centered in the center
of that section. That 8 foot section. On this, they're going to shying away from that. When they plow
they're going to be shying away from that curb and so they're going to be back off to the outside portion of
the trail. That's the comment behind the maintenance.
Councilman Senn: Well that's it for questions. I'll come back on comments. From a comment
standpoint, I went back out to look at this. Part of this is maybe, how would I say, revisiting history. As
I've stated multiple times in the past, I have absolutely no problem with trail systems coming to the curb
and running along the roadway, especially when it saves money. Saves inconvenience. Saves natural
features doing it. I mean I see absolutely no reason in my mind why this can't be an 8 foot section going
over to the curb and I think it needs to go all the way north. Now I went out and looked at this again and
I'm not going to say that every property to the north is going to be helped because I mean there's some
sections that aren't going to be helped. I mean there's mature vegetation we're going to be cutting through
whether it's an 8 foot trail or whether it's a 10 foot trail. And stuff. But the other part is especially as you
get more towards the northern end of this and I remember you know the people involved there were in on
this up front asking very strongly for us to lessen the impact, especially cutting into the slopes and affecting
the areas there. At that time I didn't have a problem with that and I still don't have a problem with it now.
It just becomes all the more reason to me to take this segment you know and treat it on that basis. I mean I
have to say, you know given other people having appeared or would have appeared on segments like this,
it'd be the same way for me in my mind. I mean again we have an 8 foot trail segment. To me there's not
a big issue as to whether we're going to pave it and make it 10 or we're going to pave it and make it 8.
And I think the other reasons aren't significant enough to, in my mind to cause both the additional cost and
additional impacts on natural features to extend it out at this point. Whether it's here or anywhere else.
This is the only place we've had the request that I'm aware of.
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Mayor Mancino: So you feel comfortable with staff's recommendation?
Councilman Senn: No. I feel comfortable with saying we should go ahead and convert it to an 8 foot
section on curb. All the way north.
Mayor Mancino: Up to, what is it Todd, Melody Hill or where does it stop? Pheasant Hill?
Councilman Senn: Pheasant.
Todd Hoffman: Pheasant Drive.
Mayor Mancino: And that's the area on the west side of Galpin where the slope comes into play, etc. Is
that north of, is it Melody Hill or Murray Hill? Do you remember which off street that is?
Todd Hoffman: That's south. Yeah, it's north. Correct. North of Melody Hill.
Mayor Mancino: Up north of Melody Hill to Pheasant Hill. So Councilman Berquist. Go with the 8 foot
all the way.
Councilman Senn: For the entire segment.
Councilman Berquist: All the way from the southerly border of 6620.
Mayor Mancino: All the way to Pheasant Hill.
Councilman Berquist: And I agree. In reading the conditions in the staff report and I'm, the only question
I'm asking myself is what are the right things to do and time, effort and resources which have been
expended. Yep, I can understand that.., modify it. I can understand that.., drawing engineering. Yes
indeed. Other meetings. Most likely... I was asking someone about the need to plow every single trail...
answer to that is but...trail user safety is compromised. I'll buy that marginally. Resulting impact of
reducing the trail cross section by 2 feet is negligible. I don't think negligible is the word that I can accept.
I've looked at the entire piece and I think 8 feet all the way up... What happens to the property immediately
and as we go into the future...
Mayor Mancino: Can I have a motion? Or.
Todd Hoffman: Yes, we need direction.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, direction. May I have a motion please.
Councilman Senn: I'll move that we provide the appropriate direction to install a trail 8 feet wide paved to
curb on the segment from 6620 to the north terminus of the trail.
Mayor Mancino: Is there a second?
Councilman Berquist: Second.
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to direct staff to install a trail 8 feet wide
paved to curb on the segment from 6620 to the north terminus of the trail along Galpin Boulevard.
All voted in favor, except Mayor Mancino who abstained, and the motion carried.
D. TH 212 MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING.
Public Present:
Name Address
Randy Maluchuik
Bob Wold
Brad Johnson
Linda & Bill Jansen
A1 Klingelhutz
Bob Lindahl, President
Bob Roepke, Mayor
112510 Ransey, Chaska
730 Pioneer Trail
7425 Frontier Trail
240 Eastwood Court
8600 Great Plains Boulevard
Southwest Corridor Transportation Coalition
City of Chaska
Mayor Mancino: Next item tonight is Highway 212 memorandum of understanding, and let me just talk
for a second about this. We, as a council had a work session, boy I can't remember the date of it. About a
month ago. We wanted to review Highway 212, not so much from a point of yes or no but to bring us up
to speed. There are a couple of us here on the council that are relatively newcomers and the last time that
this was really discussed by the council was, what is it, two years ago now? And the whole toll road issue
came up, etc. and so two of us asked to have someone from MnDOT come and talk to the council at a work
session to give us some background on 212. The design. Why. All kinds of things because a lot of that
wasn't discussed when we, since we've been on council that hasn't been discussed at all. So that took
place about a month ago and we just had an hour session which really turned into 45 minutes. And we left
there, some of us saying we need some more information. We're just now beginning to understand it, etc.
and we've been asked to sign a letter, memo of understanding. So we brought it back on tonight to decide
as a council what our next steps are. Whether we wanted to get some more information. Whether, what
we felt comfortable doing. So that is why it is on our agenda tonight.
Don Ashworth: Mayor? If I may. Yeah, I would like to reiterate those points. The Council did review
this from a month ago and we did bring in representatives from the State. We subsequently had discussed
it but again we were short on time and there was a general discussion that potentially the memorandum
should be modified and maybe relooked at. And I had placed it on the agenda and anticipate that you might
have certain directions you might be giving staff as to how that might be modified so that when it came
back it would be a little easier for you to take a look at. I hadn't anticipated that we would have as many
people in the audience as we have and I don't know, since I didn't really have it on the agenda as an action
item, and I guess you just stated kind of the same thing.
Mayor Mancino: Why don't for those that are here tonight, if you'd like to get up and say something.
Take a couple minutes or so and then we will go ahead as a council and decide what we want to do as our
next step. And so if you'd just take a couple minutes, we would appreciate it.
Brad Johnson: I'll just take a couple minutes. I'm Brad Johnson. I'm a member of the Board of Directors
of the 212 and Highway 5 and Southwest, for the development of transportation in this particular area.
The reason all these people are here tonight is that I heard that you need more information about 212. So
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
we have here probably 300 or 400 years of experience with 212. And so that might help your discussion.
... Congressman Minge sent his representative to discuss the federal government's interest in it. We have
Bob Lindahl who is the Chairman and been involved in this for what, 20-25 years. A1 Klingelhutz who has
he admits a controversy because he's also a land seller into this but he was the Mayor during the period of
time that 212 was being.., in addition to that he's been.., as a county commissioner so he can help in that
area. As the county interest. We have Bob Dykee who worked his way through college. I got that, I did
this before. Yeah, the Mayor of Chaska who helped survey this originally when he was working his way
through college. And then Earl is.
Mayor Mancino: No, no, no. The design isn't that old, is it?
Brad Johnson: That's how long it's been, yeah.
Mayor Mancino: I know we need a new road but.
Brad Johnson: That's when he started on this. And then Earl, who is now a new resident of Chanhassen,
head of the Chamber and can kind of brief you on a vote that they took recently relative to the importance
of 212 as a whole. And in addition to that, I think all of you have seen.., sort of why we're doing this. This
is a study that the county has done recently which is a transportation plan for the county. And I think it
points out the importance of 212. There's all the back-up information but the summary is probably the
most important and I think you're aware of this in your comprehensive plan as the construction of Highway
212 and really would the need for capacity expansion of 21 miles.., of county roads within the Carver
county. And if you look at that, this road ultimately impacts tremendously your own plan and your own
spending within the county, which was in your own road system. And more importantly 212 also includes
transportation mobility for the reason. It allows the buses to be more effective because that's currently our
main method of mass transportation. The Southwest Coalition, by the way we had a meeting at the Chaska
City Hall last week. Congressman Minge was there to discuss this issue along with most the people that
are in the room. We need to get around our area. We need market accessibility from both directions. One
of the, I'm a developer as you know. One of the concerns most people have in the industrial sector that we
have is getting in and out of Chanhassen, as well as everywhere else. Reduced travel time for our own
residents when they want to go something and it's very important and I'm sorry that Team Crash is not
here to give you their map of sort of where the traffic accidents are happening but the more we can get the
traffic out of our arterial roads, or the smaller roads and get them on main freeways, the more lives we're
going to save. And team crash is probably welcome to come here and make a presentation on how
important that is. So I think that's why these people are here. And that's why they wanted to listen to your
discussion because maybe you have some questions, which I've heard you have and they can maybe help
answer them. Is that fair to say? That's why we're here. Not, just to answer questions.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you Brad. Anyone else wishing to get up and approach the council on this?
Please come forward and state your views and give us your comments.
Bob Wold: I'm Bob Wold. I live at 730 Pioneer Trail and I want to apologize to the Council. I
approached you and asked you to look into this a couple weeks ago and after reading the newspapers from
Chaska and Eden Prairie, I don't think you're that bad or that dead in the water or anything else. They
kind of blasted you. But as a citizen.
Mayor Mancino: I didn't read it.
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Bob Wold: ... what you did and getting MnDOT in here. I've talked to MnDOT. I've talked to some other
people. I'm not against 212. I really think we need the 212 corridor. I just think we need to have it so we
don't get a road that leads into an expressway to gridlock. 494 isn't scheduled for upgrading until 2008.
There's a new river crossing and on the study that they've got done by Carver County, one of the things
that doesn't go away with the new 212 is the gridlock across the river. And that study that they've got
never did a what if they do a river crossing west of Chaska between there and Carver to alleviate some of
the heavy truck traffic coming into the west. As you know the majority of the truck terminals in the Twin
Cities, or in Minneapolis are south of the river now or in southern Bloomington. There's one in Richfield,
two in southern Bloomington. The rest are in Eagan or Savage and the train terminals are all located on the
river, south of the river and that's where a lot of the heavy traffic coming in is. I don't want to see 212 get
to 101 and Pioneer, or 101 and Lyman Boulevard and stagnant and stay there. It brings up a question, they
said they've got the money to upgrade the service road to handle that traffic if it all dumps out there for a
given period of time. I think that you need to look at it a little bit more. I'm in favor of improving our
transportation system. I'm nervous about a piecemeal approach. In an article that appeared in one of the
newspapers they quoted MnDOT as saying that light rail wouldn't be needed out here for 20 years, but I
think one of you asked a question that 212 was scheduled to be built in 20 years. Well, that's kind of
comes together. That the congestion would be done at that point and I just think there's some things here
that need to be resolved. We've got a lot of distinguished people here in favor of 212. I'm not against it.
I'm just very nervous about, is it what we want. Is the time frame right and will it be a road from gridlock
to gridlock? Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you.
Linda Jansen: Good evening. I'm Linda Jansen. 240 Eastwood Court in Chanhassen. I really didn't come
here to speak tonight. I thought this was actually going to be tabled and rediscussed and I realize that you
are just looking at the details of the interstate and having lived now in Chanhassen for I think we're going
on 5 years, we have always known that 212 was going to go where it was mapped. Without a doubt. I
have only recently really started looking at the specifics and what's happening, we got very excited when
the whole LRT idea resurfaced and was being relooked at. The fact that they're doing a study on I believe
what is it the Minnehaha or the Hiawatha.
Mayor Mancino: The Hiawatha corridor.
Linda Jansen: Yes. And that that is seriously being looked at. I mean that is the future. And when you
look at where the populations are going with our portion of the city growing so dramatically, you hit that
gridlock as you're heading into downtown and all we're going to do is exaggerate it by adding one more
feeder into the system. Those of us who are trying to commute now are already frustrated with the amount
of traffic that's on 494. They're not upgrading it. And I guess the questions that we've started asking as
we've sat in on some of the conversations about Highway 7. The whole Highway 5. You hear MnDOT
say over and over again, we don't have the money. Bandaid fixes here. Bandaid fixes there. We can do
this much now. The rest will have to wait until later. There are so many situations right now that impact
so many more people than Highway 212 will. My husband and I were just joking about it last night. We
are probably one of the few within Chanhassen who would immediately benefit from having 212 there. We
live close to it. It would be a quick on, quick off but we had to sit and think, but that's not what we want
our long term option to be. The LRT would be wonderful. I mean if Chanhassen can take that type of
progressive stand. Let's look at the future. We're hanging on to the past, and these past studies and you
hear it referred to as a farm to market roadway. And don't we have to stop and re-evaluate where we are
right now and what again is best for not just our community but the commuters that are moving out, you
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know through and out of Chaska. If it's not for trucks any longer, if they're not having to go to terminals
that are in the downtown. If we're truly moving people, what's the most efficient way to be moving
people? And I guess as a resident, I got very excited to see you asking questions. Please continue to ask
the questions. It's almost as though it's, you're getting handed this document to sign like it should be just
this done deal and I guess I would challenge MnDOT to look at the priorities and whether or not they're
taking the majority of the population in this part of these communities and giving them the consideration.
Are they getting the priorities? Instead of moving vehicles, are we moving people as efficiently as we can.
And I guess those are the things that I'm hoping are the questions that they're going to give you some
answers to. I can see where the Eden Prairie portion of this needed to be accomplished but it could almost
be, have a different headline. I mean it's an upgrade to Highway 5. They needed it. Evan Green came out
and called it an important north/south roadway for Eden Prairie. They needed it. What are they, 52,000 I
think is what I read in 1997. Wow, yeah. They did need that. it is servicing a huge portion of their
population. Unfortunately us too because there's so many commuters on Highway 5. But it's a Highway 5
improvement. It's not just because it's this 212 corridor. As soon as it gets into Chanhassen, it's not
helping anyone. All we're doing is moving people more quickly into the jams. They haven't focused on
what the problem is now. Thanks.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else?
Randy Maluchuik: Mayor Mancino, council members, ladies and gentlemen and staff. My name's Randy
Maluchuik. I live at 112510 Ramsey Court in Chaska. I work for Congressman Minge. We knew that
you needed some more information. We certainly respect that process. I just want to let you know that our
office is available to assist you with any questions on the federal side so that's all I had for you.
Mayor Mancino: Do you have a phone number?
Randy Maluchuik: I do, and you don't need the 800 so it's 448-6567.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Appreciate your coming. Anyone else wishing to
address the Council? Just so it's not too long.
Bob Lindahl: Thank you and you probably know my reputation. And I apologize for intruding on your
process tonight since you asked for comments from the public, I wanted to give you our comments. Bob
Lindahl, President of Southwest Corridor Transportation Coalition. Earlier this spring the coalition
solicited resolution from various cities and counties in support of advancing the pace of acquisition of
right-of-way and I appreciate Chanhassen adopted one of those. At this point I think the number is 29
resolutions that we received in support of that effort. They included Hennepin County, Carver County,
McLeod County, and the other 26 were cities. And they started with Eden Prairie on the east and that
included roughly 7 to 9 in Carver County so that means there was something like 19 some communities left
out of Carver County and I think that depicts the regional importance, yea the statewide importance of this
road. There is an old four lane divided highway between 169 going to Mankato on the southeast and 94
going to Fargo on the northwest. So there's a huge area of western Minnesota that is under served in it's
ability to get to the Twin Cities. I disagree with the concept that trucks are no longer important to this
area. Old Highway 212 historically has had twice as many trucks as the average state highway in terms of
it's percentage of the volume. This new Highway 212 has been justified in a large part as a farm to
market road for many years and including various studies by the legislation otherwise. Congress has
included this as part of the national highway system. Yes, it is appropriate to consider light rail. I can't
tell you what you should consider and what you shouldn't consider. I would like to suggest that that is
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being considered right now and has been for some time. John Sigfried from Carver County is serving on a
task force that is regional wide which is studying light rail. Carver County Commissioner. I'm not sure if
that's a joint powers group among the various counties. I think it is. In any event, there have been two
routes that have been identified in the past. They both come to our area. One is the railroad right-of-way
that has been converted to a trail through southern Chanhassen. And the other one is the operating rail line
which comes through Jonathan, through downtown Chanhassen which I think is still seriously being
considered. One of the problems of course is the huge cost .... this year that any leg of the LRT has been
proposed to be built and of course that's not our line. That's the one going from downtown Minneapolis to
the airport... Just last Wednesday a meeting of our group, Commissioner Sigfried reported that the
connection to our area is currently proposed to be the last of the various spokes in the wheels to be
constructed. And of course light rail won't replace trucks. It will only replace those current means by
which commuters who want to follow that fixed line currently are going. As you know I'm a regular rider
of the bus system and have been for over 20 years. We have an excellent bus system. It is more flexible
than a light rail system would be. It does not go on a fixed line. It is capable of going wherever there is
sufficient ridership to justify a route. And even then it's my belief, only 1% to 2% of commuters take that
line. So I think that there's a good chance that we could build a very expensive system of light rail and
have very limited ability to cover even the operating costs, let alone the capital cost. There has already
been, at least by the end of this year, there will be something in the range of $105 million, either already
spent or committed for the Highway 212 project. That's a huge investment for us to jeopardize in that. I
would hope that any massaging of the proposed design will not cast the system at risk completely. I think
it's clear that a new highway 212 would diminish the traffic on other roads such as old 212, Pioneer Trail,
Lyman Boulevard, Highway 5, County Road 62, Valley View. Certainly Highway 5 is already being very
congested and very slow because of the many stop lights. Through traffic doesn't want to stop at all the
stop lights. New 212 as designed would have none. So that would be a very significant advantage. We
would stand ready to try to answer questions and assist in trying to broker some sort of compromise if there
is a need for that. We hope very much that you will approve the memorandum of understanding that has
been approved by Chaska, Eden Prairie, Carver County and we have a meeting set up with MnDOT in
September to which Metro Council has been invited. We believe that MnDOT is giving it very high
priority and so we are very pleased with that and very hopeful. At this point the Metropolitan Council has
approved the advancement of construction of the segment from old Highway 5 to County Road 4. The
diagonal along the new alignment. That previously was to be started in the year 2000. That's been
advanced to start next year instead. We have, we think it's very likely that MnDOT will approve the
advancement of right-of-way acquisition and design of the next segment west. Our objective is to have this
project shelf ready so that if another project falls out of bed so to speak, that we're ready to go. And
already there is reason to believe that that strategy is working. The Stillwater bridge was delayed and
that's why money is available to advance the piece I told you about and if that is not the subject of a
compromise by the end of this year, it's my understanding it will be removed from the program completely
at which time the most likely heir to that money would be our project. So thank you very much for your
serious deliberation.
Mayor Mancino: Bob, thank you very much for that information. It's very helpful.
A1 Klingelhutz: I really didn't come here, I'm A1 Klingelhutz at 8600 Great Plains Boulevard. Highway
212 was a long time discussion when I was city councilman, mayor of Chanhassen, county commissioner.
It's been on the agenda for, in my lifetime, approximately 40 years. It was built to four lanes between
... and Norwood. The by-pass around Cologne was put in. It was all a part of a previous 212 project. Our
state representatives and senators knew way back when that we needed another major road from western
Minnesota into the cities to carry the produce from actually the bread basket of Minnesota to the Twin
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Cities area where most of the product is used and consumed and manufactured. In the discussion of the
right-of-way of 212 there was three alternates at the time. One was at Pioneer Trail. One was the present
location and I think I was Mayor at the time. I was on the committee and I actually didn't feel like it
should go through my farm. I didn't like to see the farm split into four pieces or anything like that. A
conflict of interest I've got to that. I'd sure like to find out at some time in the near future if the road is
actually going to go where it's proposed and mapped out to go. Where development has already stopped,
development like Chanhassen Hills. There's already a buffer between the Hills and the proposed highway.
Mission Hills is a buffer between the proposed highway and it's kind of screwing up any plans I've ever
had for my property because you know if it don't happen and I developed what I can develop at the present
time, I'll lock some of my property in where Highway 212 is going. So there is a concern and I know I
shouldn't probably be talking because it is a conflict of interest. I do have land in the right-of-way. It's
been mapped out. Not by me but by somebody else and I hope you take into consideration of the use that
212 will be getting and eliminating a lot of traffic off of Pioneer Trail, old Highway 212, Lyman
Boulevard, and Highway 5. And probably even TH 101. And as windy as that road is, I was talking about
it to some people yesterday. They said there's sure been a lot of changes around in the last 20 years. I said
yeah, there's sure been a lot more traffic. I said we were standing there for 5 minutes and I said you know
you probably saw more traffic in this 5 minutes than I did 20 years ago on this road in one 24 hour period.
So there's problems all over and I know the County and the City of Chaska and Eden Prairie have signed
the memorandum now and I hope that this council will do the same thing. Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else? The original surveyor of the road. Anyone else wishing to
address the council? Before we bring this back to Council I'd just like to thank everyone for coming
tonight and by giving your thoughts to us. There's no question it's unanimous that people that are here, all
of you feel that 212 is important. We want to know a little bit more about the specifics, etc. some of you.
Some of you don't but there's no question that all of you feel it's very important to our community. So
with that, with three of us here tonight, Councilman Senn .... comments where you would like to see this go
because we really haven't had much discussion since MnDOT appeared in front of us...
Councilman Senn: No, I mean I agree 212's an important issue. I mean I thought where we left this after
MnDOT's presentation was we were going to spend a fair amount of time discussing it yet, which we had
slated for last work session but never got to so I thought our understanding was that we pushed it off to the
next work session which was my expectation at least. I think we should stay on track and we should
continue what we're looking at in relationship to 212. The timing issues. The issues in terms of how it's
going to affect the rest of our infrastructure. Issues that relate to how it affects the development in the
surrounding areas in our community and pressures to that.., those numerous issues which we've kind of all
thrown out on the table but we just haven't had adequate time to discuss so I'd feel really uncomfortable at
this point really going any further than we have until we complete that discussion.
Mayor Mancino: I would also like to see all of council together, all five of us. Don, is our next work
session is what, the 3 lSt?
Don Ashworth: Correct, but I can't recall whether or not. Well yeah, that is what we talked about was
having it on the...
Mayor Mancino: ...
Councilman Berquist: I'm comfortable with getting it done. The concern that I have is that we can talk
and talk and talk.., and as much as I agree with Mr. Wold's... as far as the piecemeal approach, I don't like
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the piecemeal approach either but sometimes you can attempt to be a visionary and you.., and nothing gets
done. So I mean I'm comfortable with that approach as long as we...
Mayor Mancino: So that's what we will be doing. Coming back to council on August 31st at a work
session and discussing 212, the memorandum of understanding. Kind of leading off.., from our last
meeting and hopefully having all council members here. I think by that time everybody will be back from
vacation. School will have started and we'll be more of a complete council and we will certainly take your
comments that you have given us tonight. So thank you for coming. Sure.
A1 Klingelhutz: ... put any one of you on the mailing list as a representative.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: I just think it's important to note that the only thing that really held us up has been the
strategic planning process we were in the midst of when this came in. And that process is fairly well along
now. In fact almost complete which the framework to what we wanted to put this discussion into so I don't
see any reason why anything else this happens one way or the other.
Mayor Mancino: So that's just telling people why it certainly is a commitment on our part to deal with it.
We've just been doing a strategic planning process so again thank you. Bob.
Bob Roepke: Just a comment... I'm Bob Roepke, Mayor of Chaska and I think, I wanted to just come
because of how important it is in terms of the readiness that we present for this project and I think MnDOT
representatives sit at the meetings with us and look at you know how united are we in terms of the priority
for this and how ready are we for this project. And so together we make a much more formidable priority
statement relative to this project so how united we are on the priority of this delivers an important message
to MnDOT. And so I would just reinforce how important that is for us to be together for this priority.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you very much and thank you for coming.
Brad Johnson: ... can I add one.
Mayor Mancino: One comment.
Brad Johnson: This is... for information. I think people that discussed the light rail concept have a
legitimate concern that there should be some information available as to what's going on and as we've
heard we have a commission within the Carver County area working on that. And I think you need to bring
this, I don't know what's going on there but bring yourself up to speed as to what the plan is there because
there is a plan. And in the case of this piecemeal thing that you were discussing, which is a concern of all
of us. The reason we're in here, some of us have been here, I've been here 12 years. Some 30-40 is the
piecemeal and there's the opportunity currently, if we're all united, we heard today from the head of the
House Committee that finances all federal funding for highways. He was in Eden Prairie today, that there
is more money. $100 million more coming into the state per year and if we can get our priorities set up,
this...happen. They also were told at our last meeting that now that Highway 10, 610 is completed we're
not vying for those funds up north and this is, wouldn't you say Bob a vying of funds, it is political. It's
just we've got to go find the funds to get it done and we have to be uniform or we won't have what you're
concerned about. You know we won't have, who wants it to end, first of all we didn't want to end, we
didn't mind ending at highway 4 because that's in Eden Prairie. But now we may have it end at Lyman.
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
We don't want that. You know we want it to end at Chaska or someplace so they... I'm just kidding
because I'm from Chanhassen. So I think those are the issues. The issue is how fast can we get it done
and our neighbors to the west really need it. I mean they really need it so thank you very much and I would
suggest you just write down some of your questions. There are authorities here and you can run them
through Lindahl. Sometimes you can get a written report on what's going on you know. If you have a list
of questions.., some of us can write a letter to you or let you know. I'm not an authority but I mean there's
a number of people here that can make sure you get the information because I, at any public meeting
somebody can throw something at you that you don't know anything about and that's always frustrating.
And that's not fair actually and as you say you want to be informed so we appreciate your attention.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Let's go on to the admin section.
ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION DISCUSSION:
Councilman Senn: Quick question, if I could while Charles is sitting here. Charles? I keep carrying this
forward every week and I thought something was coming back to us relatively soon but where are we on
the speed limit issue on residential streets and some case study or some potential case study areas?
Charles Folch: I think what I'd like to do with that is bring back to you at a work session coming up here
in the fall, not only that particular issue but the issue of just traffic speeds in general. Things like that and
traffic signs so we all can have an informed, more informed if you will basis to go ahead and decide
because there's a couple approaches probably to try out of the test methods and by just a matter of we just
haven't had time to get to that yet. It will probably be sometime in the fall and we've got the things we're
trying to of course get all this through this budgetary process and things like that but I think we'd like to
work through it through a work session process with you where we can talk about some potential options
and talk more, and maybe even bring in some of the folks, representative from the state even to talk about
how this whole process works with traffic and speed limits and changes and some of the, be a lot more
informed. That does the speed things day in and day out and can tell you what kind of reaction that they've
had with different types of things that have been done. I know there's been things, there's been tests done
out there in the past and there's no sense in us reinventing the wheel. We just need to make the contacts
with these folks and such and maybe even get someone to come out and talk to us. Certainly more adversed
at these speed issues than I am. You know that does, deals with it day in and day out.
Mayor Mancino: That means put it on a work session... Why don't we try and get a date on that. A firm
date when we're going to do it. Why don't you look in September and October and talk about that
tomorrow during the staff meeting. When we can kind of bring this to... some different options. Because it
feels like it's still kind of hanging out there.
Councilman Berquist: I'm really surprised to hear that response.
Councilman Senn: Me too but.
Councilman Berquist: Real surprised. When we first, the night that we talked about it, it sounded like it
was relatively easy to implement on a very small scale and that we would do something reasonably soon.
Charles Folch: And actually we have. Where we've actually put up two of these already. One in
conjunction with the trail project where we've actually put an adjacent park. It was actually on that
Dogwood Avenue where we closed off from the access on TH 7. That one stayed open. There was a
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
concern by a resident about speeds coming off of TH 7, turning on the road. There's a park there. You've
got a playground sign so it's something like that we could have the ability, we did implement the lower
speed at that one there. But I think what we want.
Councilman Senn: With the yellow.., sign like we talked about?
Charles Folch: Yeah, but you can't, yeah. What we need to walk through is where these things are
appropriate. Where they're not. We talked to the other, probably a month or so ago. We have put up two
of these now and we will continue to monitor.
Councilman Senn: Where's the second one?
Charles Folch: The second one is over on, we had a request and we did it over in Redwing. Over in
Redwing, in that area there. Chaparral area there where we had kind of the deaf, I think we had, I
shouldn't say deaf. We had a handicap child type signage that we put up there with also a speed placard
deal on that one so again we'll continue, I think we'll have to, we'll certainly continue to work with public
safety and try and monitor what, if there's any speed impact changes. Things like that but a lot of this has
been done out there. I mean you read about it in the journals. It'd be nice if we can get some information
from more local studies that have been done here by our own state folks and things like that but nationwide
this is a big issue in terms of how to deal with speed and how effective is signage on itself and whether or
not inappropriate signage creates disrespect for signs in general. Things like that because the general
public gets pretty smart, pretty intuitive about these things and we want to be, we want to make sure we've
got our bases covered with something like this. So and again we can't just put these yellow signs up
anywhere. It has to be in conjunction with some sort of hazard or element adjacent to the roadway that
creates a potential hazard or potential, where you'd have a yellow placard, you know warning of
something. Whether it's a sharp curve or pedestrian crossing, bike crossing. Something like that. You just
can't put up, they have to be in conjunction with a cautionary placard. You just can't put up the speed
limit caution sign in itself. It has to be in conjunction with some other sort of advisory element of the
roadway. So these are all things we wanted to walk through with you and show you some examples of
things like that but at a work session.
Councilman Senn: I thought we were also going, I thought when we talked before that we also said we
were going to put ones in our regular residential neighborhood situations. We had a request I think it was
down at Oxbow and we were going to use that as one of the case examples and you said you knew of a
couple other places where you wanted to do it and so that's what we were going to go do. So I'm a little
perplexed to find out now that that hasn't happened as we discussed and I guess generally perplexed that
here we are a month later and it seems like, I mean we've had a lot of discussion on the issue already. We
can have more.
Charles Folch: I think you have upstairs...
Councilman Senn: Well, but we've had significant discussion over the years on the issue.
Charles Folch: Well, everybody has... In terms of whether or not, in terms of the idea of implementing the
yellow placard cautionary type element, that was like I said a discussion about 10 or 15 minutes upstairs a
month or so ago but I mean there's not been a lot of dialogue. On that particular.
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Councilman Senn: Don't have a case example. I mean if we don't go try it, how are we going to get the
information?
Charles Folch: Well, right. And we've got it up here. Like I said, we've got, we put two of them up.
Mayor Mancino: Charles, would you rather test that now and in a month show us some findings? ...the
outcomes of the test and have us all...
Charles Folch: See I think it's more involved than just going out and shooting radar. Okay, I think this is
much more involved than that.
Mayor Mancino: Well I think we need to discuss what are the outcomes we really want.
Charles Folch: Exactly, and what methods are available to determine realistically what our, to develop
reasonable and accurate outcomes and we don't have that yet. We need to make contact with some other
folks that are more specialized in the traffic area and things like that. And again we just, it's kind of just
something we've got on our list to do. It's not been dropped off. It's not been forgotten. We're just still
trying to catch up with a lot of things that have been in the mill if you will already that we're behind on so.
Mayor Mancino: ...through residential areas is where we're... I had a question on the Lotus Lake and the
e-mail we got on the water-ski courses on Lotus Lake and two of you live on Lotus Lake. Is that something
we need to look at? ... what's happening there.
Councilman Senn: No, it's been a recurring problem out there. Last year they set up the course and
neighbors called me and complained and they went out and had to stake it out and finally found out who's
course it was and they issued them a tag and told them to get it out of there. And it's back again this year
but again, the reason these things are back in action, nobody going out to check whether they're there or
doing anything about them in the first place.
Councilman Berquist: So you're saying...
Councilman Senn: Yeah. You have to have a permit to put a course up.
Councilman Berquist: At any time?
Councilman Senn: At any time. And if you're going to put a course up, it has to meet certain requirements
of which I don't believe can even be met on Lotus Lake for one but.
Don Ashworth: As you can see it was forwarded to Bob Zydowsky. I haven't had a chance to, and
typically they're good in terms of, well of course that was 8-17, less than a week ago. They're usually
good in following up so I would anticipate there'd be some response from Scott or Zydowsky in this week's
news alley or admin section.
Councilman Senn: We grant, I mean just so you know, we do grant the permit every year, or at least we
have since I've been on the council for six years we've granted a permit each year on Lake Minnewashta.
They come in with their request for a...
Councilman Berquist: Is that for...
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City Council Meeting - August 24, 1998
Councilman Senn: Well, again it's a course. I mean how long they keep it there is up to them. They have
to come and get the permit.
Councilman Berquist: Well but if it's a permanent course. It stays there when they're not there it stays
there. From what I understand, this issue is over a temporary course that it put out. Used for half an hour,
45 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half and then taken out.
Councilman Senn: And under our ordinance it still requires a permit.
Councilman Berquist: You're certain about that?
Councilman Senn: Yes. I can tell you when it was getting light early, it wasn't 7:00 in the morning it was
starting, it was 6:00 in the morning it was starting.
Don Ashworth: ... Councilman Senn's comment regarding permanent versus temporary is correct. I don't
think we'd come up with something like a temporary because temporary just turns to permanent you know
so I mean.
Mayor Mancino: I think they can look at the ordinance as far as... Is that something that...
Councilman Senn: That was tagged last year? I don't know. I mean I don't know who's doing it this
year... Sorry, I haven't had enough time. I haven't even gotten into my boat this year so...
Mayor Mancino adjourned the meeting at 8:50 p.m.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
31