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1980 12 22 I I I REGULAR CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL MEETING DECEMBER 22, 1980 Mayor Hobbs called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. with the following members present: Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux, Swenson and Geving. APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Pearson moved to approve the agenda as presented with the addition of reports on solid waste, hazardous waste and the 201 program. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux, Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. AWARD OF BIDS, COLONIAL GROVE SECOND ADDITION, PUBLIC IMPROVEMENTS: Jim Orr gave a report on the fifteen bids received. Councilman Neveaux moved to accept the engineer's recommendation of December 8, 1980, awarding the bid to Ideal Enterprises, Inc. in the amount of $145,447.75. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. AWARD OF BIDS, CITY HALL/LIBRARY/PUBLIC WORKS CABINETRY BIDS: One bid was received through the contractor, James Leek, in the approximate amount of $36,000. The City advertised for bids and received one bid from Woodsmith in the amount of $24,650. Councilman Neveaux moved to accept the bid of Woodsmith for the cabinetry in the City Hall and Public Works facility building in the amount of $24,650. Motion seconded by Councilman Swenson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Neveaux and Swenson. Councilmen Pearson and Geving voted no. Motion carried. CITY HALL/LIBRARY/PUBLIC WORKS FACILITIES FURNITURE ALLOCATIONS: The City Manager presented proposed furniture purchases for City Hall and the Public Works facility. Councilman Pearson moved to allow a furniture allocation not to exceed $17,000. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux. Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING ESTABLISH HUNTING BAN SOUTH OF HIGHWAY 5 Mayor Hobbs called the hearing to order at 8:00 p.m. with the following interested persons present: Tony and Claire Robling, Prior Lake Roger Brown, 1200 Hesse Farm Road Nick Evanoff, 1401 Hesse Farm Road Neil K1inge1hutz Dan Teich Sue and Paul Allen, 1002 Hesse Farm Road Scott Hanson, 9715 Audubon Road Russell Barto, 415 Lakota Lane N. A. Monroe, 565 Lakota Lane Larry Sch1asinger. 740 Voge1sberg Trail Don Slathar, 8508 Great Plains Blvd. Clark Horn. 7608 Erie Al K1ingelhutz Douglas Klein, 8412 Great Plains Blvd. Al Sinnen Fred Oelschlager. 7410 Chanhassen Road Bob Steffes, 1350 Hesse Farm Road Howard and Mary Ann Noziska, 1120 Hesse Farm Chad Junker, 1250 Hesse Farm Road Harold Hesse, 1425 Bluff Creek Drive Fred Strobl, 1180 Hesse Farm Road Roger Broun In the past two years the City has received complaints regarding shooting from residents in Chanhassen Estates and the Bluff Creek area. A petition dated September 20, 1980, has been received requesting the Council adopt a no shooting permit policy in and around the areas adjacent to Bluff Creek. The hearing was opened for comments from those in attendance. Council Meeting December 22, 1980 -2- Don Slathar - I have lived south of Highway 5 for 20 years and I am against banning hunting. I think that the State Law provides for what ever happened. There is a no tresspassing law and that should cover this violation. There is also a local ordinance that says you have to get a permit. We have got an excellent gun safety trainer right in our neighborhood, Mr. Sinnen. He has trained all our kids in the neighborhood. I have yet to hear of a violation. I consider it a real privilege and a real opportunity for our young people. I think most of the violations that occur are from people corning in. For the most part the people in our community that have hunted, I wish the Sheriff could tell us about the violations, I haven1t heard of any. Al Klingelhutz - I am opposed to a total hunting ban in Chanhassen. I hear the mention of Chanhassen E$tates. Rice Marsh Lake, pretty wide open areas outside of the Estates. I think the thing that concerns me mostly about closing off Rice Marsh Lake is the fact that Eden Prairie does not ban hunting on Rice Marsh Lake. People can get on the lake in Eden Prairie can come over to Chanhassen and shoot. Our young people that live in town here. that would like to keep out of mischief. like to keep away from the store down here, shouldn't be allowed to hunt in Chanhassen when Eden Prairie allows them to corne onto the lake that's half way in Chanhassen and half in Eden Prairie. it just don't make sense to me to close off all of the hunting south of Highway 5. Sue Allen - I guess I don't understand how drastic you have to be. you are talking about my backyard. I am not against banning total hunting but I feel this is a growing area. It is not wild country anymore. We built and live there to enjoy the animals. I don't enjoy hearing shots in the ravine. Al Sinnen - There has been hunting around there without permits which is against the law. State Tresspass Law says you cannot shoot a gun within 500 feet of a building that's occupied by humans or by livestock. The last "Minnesota Volunteer" has got a good article about Bloomington deer herd and the problems that they are having because it's getting to many and there is no way that they can go back to hunting. There are six deer that call it home less than a half mile from this building right here. If that herd is not thinned down there is going to be quite a few deer killed on the highways and every time a car hits a deer on a highway now, this magazine says the average is $500 and as cars are getting smaller it's going to be more dangerous when you hit a deer. I am totally against banning hunting because our police department. every time we have needed them they have been there like right now. We have no kick in that. Anytime you see a tresspasser all you have got to do is call them. Councilman Geving - I note that you have been involved in hunter's safety programs for a number of years. how many children in Chanhassen have you trained over the last 15 years? Al Sinnen - It's 25 years and it's up to 30 children a year. Councilman Geving - Do you know of anyone time during those 25 years that one of your trained people have ever been involved in an incident? Al Sinnen - No, I do not. Fred Oelschlager - I am a lifetime resident of Chanhassen. I agree with what Al says 100%. I was wondering if the Sheriff's Department is in full awareness of what these permits are used for and how they are to be used. I get permits every year. This year I was stopped by the Sheriff's Department seven times. which is good. Two of the I I I I I I Council Meeting December 22, 1980 -3- officers I knew. The other three I did not know. I was in no violation or anything like this but never once was I asked for a permit for the areas I was hunting. Never once was it even mentioned. How many other people are they stopping to see what they are doing and not checking for permits? I was not by myself all the time. I had other hunters with me. We all had permits. They were not asked for permits. Somebody is missing the boat some place and I think if the Sheriff's Department were jacked up a little bit on making sure when they do stop people to check these permits. I am sure they would get at least 60-70% of these people out of there and not be so lenient with them. I think that would have a lot to do with it. N. A. Monroe - One of the reasons we moved out to the country, we have about four acres, is we enjoy rural living. By rural I mean we don't have city water. sewer. tarred road or anything and one of the reasons I live in the country is so that I can have a garden. shoot a few clay pigeons from time to time and do some safe target shooting. If this ban is brought into law I won't be able to do any target shooting on my own property. I think the property owner has a right to use his property in a safe way for his own pleasure. Scott Hanson - I am against a total no hunting ban. We don't need two laws to protect the residents in the Bluff Creek area. The laws that are not in effect are sufficient. If there is a problem in that area I think that's the area that should be looked at, not the entire City. The only thing that's left in the City is pretty wide open area and most of it is posted right now. Sue Allen - I agree with what he is saying but who is to say that animal is going to be on his own property and not on my property. Fred Strobl - I guess I am not so concerned with the people we see here at the meeting. From sitting and listening it becomes apparent that the people here who are hunting are fairly responsible people. I am really very concerned about the area because there are children there. There are children who like to play down there. There are children who like to sleep down there, camp out. Claire Robling - Many people in southern Chanhassen have 100 acres of land. My father. for example. has more than 100 acres of land and he signs permits for my brothers and my husband and maybe a few of their friends. Land owners, most of them are quite responsible as to the number of people that they are going to allow come on their land. I think the permit does restrict people if it's followed and to think that if you ban all hunting. if there are some irresponsible hunters not now getting permits. who is to say that the hunting ban is going to stop them from going out there anyway. If they are following the present laws. I am saying there can be safety. More laws may not prevent anything. If there is irresponsible people they are still going to be out there. The fact that people can hunt in their own area. they are familar with the territory, they know where the homes are, they know where the people are out doing recreational things, they can be very cautious in those areas and people who live there, like my family. they know those things and to ban hunting totally in that area. how fair is it? They have already closed the whole river bottoms to hunting and now you want to close all of Chanhassen. You want to send people miles and miles away when there is indeed a safe open area to hunt around here and with the restrictions that you have already placed on it. Council Meeting December 22. 1980 -4- Russell Barto - I am against the hunting ban. I have children too and I certainly wouldn't want my children shot and I think the people who live in the area of Chanhassen are responsible people. I think the problems I that they have are from people out of the area. We have the laws to cover it with the shooting permit. you have to have written permission from the farmer and I think those are sufficient to cover this. It is a very emotional thing and by banning hunting 100% it is a mistake. Roger Broun - You seem to feel the tresspass laws as far as the state are concerned are fairly sufficient as far as hunting on some elses property. In addition Chanhassen has another permit that has to be obtained when hunting on anybodies land. If you move, while you are hunting. on another persons property, you also have to have that persons signature that you are carrying with you that authorizes you to hunt there. It specifies not only the type of gun you are carrying but what you are shooting. This year you passed a no hunting deal by the Bluff Creek and there were obviously hunters in the area so I guess my feeling is that as opposed to passing a no hunting la1v. no matter what you do it's the enforcement of the laws that are currently in existence to stop the complaints of the people in the area. To go ahead and pass more laws with no enforcement only hurts the people that aren't going to break the la1vs and the people that are, you aren't going to come after anyway. There was a deer shot on the other side on the Hesse Farm Addition. A patrol officer was called. He came and caught the guy putting the deer on his car and did nothing about it. This in an area where you passed a no hunting law. I guess what we need is more responsibility at the officer level to enforce I the laws that are presently in existence as opposed to more laws. Originally when the petition was brought up and presented to the Council it specifically asked for the area in and around Bluff Creek and we did not define it specifically. I think later on we mentioned possibly south of County Road 14, north of Highway 212. west of Highway 101 and possibly east of Bluff Creek Drive would be a suitable boundary mainly because this area is becoming a residential area. What we are asking for is something stronger, something that says there will be no shooting or hunting in this area and that's specifically what we asked the Council for. Bob Steffes - Howard Noziska - I would like to put my two cents worth in for the little area that Bob Steffes mentioned that we are concerned about. I guess if we do put this law into effect all we are doing really is better defining what we are talking about already if you can not hunt down there because of the 500 foot law. all we are doing is pointing this out in a little more certain terms to those potential hunters. I can't see. in that case. where the hunters would lose anothing and out families and the residents would gain the safety of not having hunting in the valley. Dan Teich - My father recently sold his land to the state and as it stands right now we are not going to be able to hunt down there. I am a good friend of I the Klingelhutz' so I do a lot of hunting on their land which is no where near Bluff Creek. I just don't see why you are going to close the whole area just because of one certain area people are complaining about. Mayor Hobbs - In listening I was thinking about several things. We are talking about hunting tonight. We have also had groups of people up here, it's about I I I Council Meeting December 22, 1980 -5- that time of year if we get some snow, to talk about snowmobiling. The reason I bring that up is you are looking at human beings interacting with other human beings. In looking at the area south of Highway 5 I don't think it's any surprise to anyone. that it is beginning to develop. Any time you get two different types of lifestyles. you have had it historically rural and the rural is still there and you are picking up an urban/rural and these are bound to come in to concerns. The thought came to mind. several years back we ran into a similar type of thing with animals and we had to do something about it. We put together on an animal committee and they worked that thing over and came back with an ordinance that is unique. We worked out something that in the past few years has been workable. The thought went through my mind I wonder if we would accomplish anything by getting a group of people together to go over that part of Chanhassen in more detail than we can at any public hearing to see if there are gives and takes. It may be in looking at that part of our city that lies south of Highway 5 we might select two or three areas not just the Bluff Creek area where it might not be a good place to hunt. Assuming that we came to some type of agreement on that. I wrote down here, laws with no enforcement, and that's something that we are all going to be faced with over the next couple of years. I don't know how many of you really got into the police contract issue but in November the citizens of this community spoke and they turned down Chanhassen Police Department which had it passed it would have cost some money but that department would have been under the control of the City Council and they would enforce whatever you wanted. That was turned down. They also turned down the request to increase the levy to continue 24-hourpolicing with the Sheriff. That's under negotiation but the last time we came to the voters the County Board indicated it would be 24 hours or nothing. Hopefully we will work out some kind of compromise. You are right, we cannot pass a law and put it in the books and have it do a darn thing for you, pro or con, if there is no one out there to enforce it. Is there any interest at all in the possibility of the Council forming a committee to really dig this type of thing, the kind of discussion and debate it needs because what I am hearing as an individual puts me in a very uncomfortable situation because I hear some very valid arguments made by people who have moved into the area, on the other hand I hear some very valid arguments from people who have hunted and hunt in a safe manner. Al Klingelhutz - I guess it's a good idea. My biggest concern would be if we set up a committee and come up with some new rules. are we going to have an effective enforcement of those new rules? If we don't have these I don't think any ordinance is going to do much good. Councilman Swenson - It seems to me that probably every city that has developed has gone through this problem and I am sure that when the City Limit signs went up and said "No Hunting Allowedll people got the idea in a hurry. I am the first one to admit that there are very responsible hunters and probably thanks to people like Mr. Sinnen most of them are right here in Chanhassen. Unfortunately when a gun goes off a citizen doesn't know if that is somebody with a permit or whether it isn't. We have been accused of being, not us personally but the American people, of being crisis oriented. We wait until something terrible happens before we do something about it. instead of trying to analyze a problem and stopping it before it becomes a problem. L_thirik~with:_ì:be :.:grbwirig=.,development in this City that it is very remiss of the Council not to take steps to eliminate what can actually become a crisis. Council Meeting December 22, 1980 -6- Doug Klein - You made a comment that if someone was killed like the gal over there was talking about an incident in Pennsylvania. To begin with, that man was illegal and it was stated in the paper that he was illegal I because he didn't have a license. You made a comment to the effect that. could I get up and shave in the morning or could you get up and powder your nose in the morning if someone was killed by a gun in a hunting accident in this City. What about the car accidents? Could you get up the next morning and powder your nose then? It's the same thing. Councilman Swenson - I am in a position at this point in time to have to make a decision about the health, welfare, and safety of the citizens in this town. Doug Klein - Fine. ban the cars then. Councilman Swenson - I think there are a great many people in this City who live in these areas. If we take little areas and check them off this is going to make the open areas even more densely crowded with hunters which will make it more difficult. I think there are people who live out here for the purpose of enjoying wildlife and it is there right. Al Klingelhutz - I guess I would have to go along with your idea of setting up a committee to iron this thing out. Councilman Neveaux moved to close the public hearing. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. HUNTING BAN: Councilman Neveaux moved that the City Manager be directed to form I a committee not to exceed ten members, equally weighted pros and cons, with representatives from the City Council. this to be done no later than the end of January and the committee to report back to the Council by the end of May 1981. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux. Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. MINUTES: Amend the October 27, 1980, Council minutes by deleting the word "minor" in the first motion under LAKE SUSAN SOUTH. PROPOSED PRELIMINARY DEVELOPMENT PLAN APPROVAL. Councilman Swenson moved to approve the October 27. 1980, Council minutes as amended. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux, Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Neveaux moved to approve the November 3, 1980, Council minutes. seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Pearson. Neveaux. Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Motion Councilmen Councilman Swenson moved to approve the November 6. 1980. Council minutes. Motion, seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Neveaux. Geving, and Swenson. Councilman Pearson abstained. Motion carried. Councilman Pearson moved to approve the November 10. 1980, Council minutes. Motion seconded by Mayor Hobbs. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Councilmen Pearson and Swenson. Councilmen Neveaux and Geving abstained. Motion carried. I Councilman Pearson moved to approve the November 17, 1980. Council minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux, and Geving. Mayor Hobbs and Councilman Swenson abstained. Motion carried. I I I Council Meeting December 22, 1980 -7- Councilman Swenson moved to approve the November 24, 1980. Council minutes. seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Pearson. Neveaux. Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Motion Councilmen Councilman Pearson moved to approve the December 8. 1980, Council minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux. Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Neveaux moved to note the November 12, 1980, Planning Commission minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, Geving. and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Pearson moved to note the November 18, 1980, Park and Recreation Commission minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Neveaux. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilman Pearson, Neveaux. Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Geving moved to note the December 2, 1980, Park and Recreation Commission minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Swenson moved to note the November 17, 1980, Sign Committee minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Pearson moved to note the November 20, 1980, Lake Study Committee minutes. Motion seconded by Councilman Neveaux. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, Geving, and Swenson. No negative votes. Motion carried. Councilman Swenson left the meeting. LETTERS OF CREDIT REDUCTION REQUEST FOR CHAPARRAL FIRST, SECOND, AND THIRD ADDITIONS NEW HORIZON HOMES, INC.: Councilman Geving moved to approve the reduction request in the Chaparral letters of credit subject to the following four conditions: I. That the remaining balance be sufficient to cover 110% of the estimated value of uncompleted work as per the engineer. 2. Sufficient to cover the $152.000 guarantee previously negotiated for deferred assessments. 3. Sufficient to cover 100% of the pending assessments for both Kerber Blvd. projects. 4. The developer file a guarantee bond warranting the public improvements for the period of one year beyond acceptance of the same. Motion seconded by Councilman Neveaux. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. MUNICIPAL WATER DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM. LOW AND HIGH PRESSURE PROPERTIES, TROLLS GLEN: Mr. and Mrs. Gregg Bernhardt were present requesting the City pay costs associated with a water boosting device installed in their home at 3883 Forest Ridge Circle. Councilman Neveaux moved to deny the request and reinforce the city policy on water that the city deliver water consistently no less than 30 pounds at the street level in the city system and direct that the City Engineer and Utility Department restudy this area over the next six months coming back with perhaps a further recommendation by July 1. 1981. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux, and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. Council Meeting December 22, 1980 -8- REPLAT PROPOSAL. LOT 7, BLOCK 3. CHANHASSEN ESTATES FIRST ADDITION: Bob Buesgens was present seeking replat approval to clear title problems due to the encroachment of a house situated on the property immediately south of the Lot 7, Block 3. Councilman Pearson moved to approve the replat subject to a ten foot drainage and I utility easement along the north property line. Motion seconded by Councilman Neveaux. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux, and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. DAYCO CONCRETE SITE PLAN REVIEW, LOT 1, BLOCK I, CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK: Dayco Concrete is proposing to construct an approximate 16.380 square foot office/ warehouse building on Lot 1, Block 1, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park. The Planning Commission recommended approval with the conditions stated in the Planning Report of November 16. 1980. Councilman Geving moved to approve the site plan as shown on exhibit A dated December 22, 1980. with the following conditions: I. That there be no open storage of materials ancillary to the businesses located in the building. 2. That fleet vehicle parking be conducted as described in the applicant's letter of October 15, 1980. 3. That the applicant receive grading. drainage. and lighting plan approval from the City Engineer and City Council. 4. That the applicant work with staff in developing the landscape plan for the screening of loading areas. 5. That all non-impervious areas be seeded with the exception of boulevard and berm areas which are to be sodded. 6. That the perimeters of all maneuvering and parking areas have concrete curbs and that all roof-top mechanical equipment be screened. I 7. That the applicant post a letter of credit to insure completion of all off-structure improvements in an amount specified by the City Engineer. 8. That a maneuvering area around loading facilities be maintained at 65 feet. 9. Curb cuts on Park Drive be kept to a minimum. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. DOWNZONING OF OAKMONT PROPERTY: Mr. Dave Sellergren. representing Partnership Investments, Inc.. owner's of the property, was present. A letter was received at this meeting from Mr. Sellergren stating objections to the proposed rezoning. Councilman Geving moved to table action to give the City Attorney time to study the letter and prepare a written report to the Council. Motion seconded by Councilman Neveaux. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux, and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. DOWNZONING SINNEN PROPERTY:A letter was received from the Sinnen family requesting that this item be tabled as they are unable to have anyone in attendance. Councilman Geving moved to table action. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux. and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. BILLS: Councilman Pearson moved to approve the bills as presented. Checks #12249 I through #12330 in the amount of $1,071.987.48 and checks #15991 through #16l05 in the amount of $737,736.16. Motion seconded by Councilman Neveaux. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs. Councilmen Pearson. Neveaux. and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. I I I Council Meeting December 22. 1980 -9- 1981 PAY CLASSIFICATION RANGES AND BENEFIT ADJUSTMENTS: Councilman Pearson moved to increase salaries of the full time city employees 9.5% effective January 1, 1981. Motion seconded by Councilman Neveaux. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson and Neveaux. Councilman Geving voted no. Motion carried. Councilman Neveaux moved to approve the salary ranges for new positions of Building Inspector, City Engineer/Public Works Director, City Planner/BRA Executive Director, and Receptionist/Clerk. Motion seconded by Councilman Pearson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, and Geving. No negative votes. Motion carried. . 201 WASTE MANAGEMENT. SOLID WASTE, AND HAZARDOUS WASTE: Councilman Pearson gave a report on meetings he has attended. A new representative will have to be appointed effective January I, 1981. Councilman Neveaux following voted in No negative votes. moved to adjourn. Motion seconded by Councilman Geving. The favor: Mayor Hobbs, Councilmen Pearson, Neveaux, and Geving. Meeting adjourned at 12:00. Don Ashworth City Manager