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1983 05 23 Board of Review I I I BOARD OF REVIEW MEEETING - MAY 23, 1983 The Chanhassen City Council, acting as the Board of Review, met in the Chanhassen Municipal Building on May 23, 1983, at 7:30 p.m. Present at said meeting were Mayor Hamilton, Councilwoman Swenson, Councilwoman Watson, Councilman Horn and Councilman Geving. Mayor Hamilton opened the meeting by stating that the Board was meeting for purposes of property tax equalization. The County Assessor, Craig Zinter and his assistant, Lana Larson were present. Mr. Benson, Hennepin County, was also present. The procedure that they followed was that Mr. Zinter was available to respond questions. If persons wished to talk about a specific parcel, Lana Larson was available in a conference room with property tax records to help answer questions. There are sheets in the back of the room to sign up, we would like you to sign your name and check if you want to speak. If you do not wish to speak but wish to register your comments, there is another form that you can fill out. This is, as you know, the Board of Equalization, and what we would like to do this evening from the City Council standpoint is to listen to your com- ments, they will be recorded so that we can review them during the next week. We are anticipating that we will take action on individual requests or each parcel where people have spoken, wishing to have something done with their property tax, hopefully we can respond to that on June 6. If we don It get to all the individuals, we will have a special meeting some- time during that week to deal with just the property tax issues. Ed R. Siebenaler - 25-024-0200: I have a piece of property on Lake Riley, about 145 feet of lakeshore, and I have a cabin on it. I don't value the cabin over $500 or $1000, it has 2 x 41s and no ceiling in it. I was assessed last year $66,000, I came to the meeting and the gal looked over my land and on July 2nd I got a notice that it was assessed at $53,000 and if I wasn't satisfied that I could come to the meeting at the Courthouse. Well I thought that wasn't to bad, then I got the tax statement and it said $61,000 assessed valuation. So I called up someone in Chaska and they said there was a mistake and they would take care of. I didn't hear about it and about two months went by so I called them back about it, they said it must have been a computer error. So I still didn't hear about it and about a week ago I called and someone said that the County Board turned me down. So I just canlt understand why I was dropped and then raised up again. live had the place for sale for a year and numerous buyers and then they ask what the taxes are and I tell them $1,200, and they say oh my god, what's it going to be like if I put a house there! Mayor Hamilton: Is there a specific question that you would like to ask Mr. Zinter? Do you want him to come and review your property again? Ed R. Siebenaler: Yes, live got to try and get that lowered. live got the number here if they want it. Mayor Hamilton: lid like to comment here and should have mentioned earlier that the City is extremely limited in any action that we can take. The County Assessor does the assessing independently of what the City government here wishes to do, their philosophies are absol utely not those of this body or anybody associated with the City as far as I know. You can, after our body has ruled on your property we are very limited in what we can do. We can only make very minor changes, consequently you'd Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -2- need to follow up from this group and you will also need to go to the County Board of Adjustments and Appeals and give the same appeal to them. They can either sustain what this Council has done or they can overrule I it. We have absolutely no control over that as some of you already know. Then there also seems to be changes along the way that nobody knows about when the County Board makes a decision to lower one, it somehow gets raised again, who knows how or why that happens. I have had many comments in the past year, where they thought the County Board had lowered the tax on their property and come to find out not only was it not lowered it was raised more than what it had been originally. Ed R. Seibenaler: They did not notify me before the meeting. Mayor Hamilton: Do you know now, Craig, when the County meeting will be? Craig Zinter: The County meeting will be the 14th of July. Mayor Hamilton: At the County Courthouse in Chaska. What time does the meeting start? Craig Zinter: It starts at 9:00. Mayor Hamilton: It starts at 9:00 a.m. in the morning. You could pro- bably call there and speak to Greg Mangold, would he have the agenda so we would know when some of these people might be on the agenda? Craig Zinter: There is no agenda established as of yet, the County Auditor's Office is scheduled to take appointments. Mayor Hamilton: Did you get a notification from the County Assessor's Office that youlre market value of your property will be lowered, don't just accept that, go to the County Hearing anyway and appeal your case. Be sure that the County Board does take some action on it. They will hear it the same as we are this evening and then they will have an additional meeting some time after July 14th to express decisions. Is that correct Craig? I Craig Zinter: Yes. Mayor Hamilton: O.k. They ususally have to do that within 20 days. Craig Zinter: They have to be done, 11m not exactly sure what date it is, they don It have 20 days they have 2 work weeks or ten working days, and the 14th happens to be a Thursday they have to be done the following Fri day. Mayor Hamilton: So that doesn't include weekends. Councilwoman Swenson: Craig, when we have this kind of a situation where the County reverses the City's decision, is a notification then sent to the individuals and do they have an opportunity then to appeal or do they have to be at the Commission of County Board meeting? I Craig Zinter: This situation was a bit unique in that there was an error in data entry at the time the notice went out that Mr. Siebenaler received following the local Board of Review. That notice indicated I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -3- $53,000 whatever it was as a matter of that error. Sometime prior to the issuance of the tax statement on that property, that error was found in the process of our conversion to tax data and that error was corrected as basically an added tax through the County Auditor's Office. After Mr. Siebenaler called the lower value notice said was presented to the County Board through the abatement process that was sometime after the first of the year, I don It know the exact date, but they denied that abatement, that request for reduction in value at that point. Councilwoman Swenson: But an individual at that point in time has no recourse, is that correct? Craig Zinter: Yes. After the taxes have been levied, the abatement pro- cess or tax court, those two alternatives, even though that was a data error. Mayor Hamilton: So if there is action taken on your property be sure that you follow it up to make sure that the correct tax is applied to your pro- perty. With that we will move on, Ethel Trumble. Ethel Trumble's brother: 11m Ethel Trumble's brother and we just have one question. On this list of assessment the class of property says residen- tial non-homestead, and I wonder if that means that she does not get the homestead credit for tax purposes, as far as a refund on taxes? Craig Zinter: That is what it would mean. Ethel Trumblels brother: since it started. I wonder why that is, she's had it from, ever Craig Zinter: We issued homestead exemption cards. Ethel Trumble's brother: She's never gotten one. Lana Larson: Could I see you upstairs and weill look at the card and see what it says? Mayor Hamilton: If you just have a question of Lana, you want to just talk with her, you can go upstairs she will be in Conference Room A with your records and you can review them there and ask her your questions. If not then weill go on to the next person who is from Minnewashta Homeowner's Association. Roman Roos: Excuse me, before you do that could give everybody an idea of how their taxes are reassessed? The market value of, how the rate struc- ture is set? Craig Zinter: Sure I know exactly what your question is Roman, the market value is what we are here to discuss tonight. 1983 has indicated to be approximately 90% of what the property should sell for in the open market. There will be variations because of just of the human nature being involved but the ideal is basically 90% of it. Roman Roos: Was it 80% last year? Board of Review Meeting MaY 23, 1983 -4- Cralg Zinter: It was roughly 90% a year ago as well, we didn't change it, we haven't found a dramatic change in the market place and we haven't reflected any change in our basic assessment this year. Mayor Hamilton: Craig and I talked this afternoon a little bit and perhaps we can try to shed some light on your question, if I understand your question and that is how does your home get to be assessed at a par- ticular market value? From what Craig had told me there are various cate- gories that homes are put into. From 5 to 11, it's typed into a number. Within that 5 to 11 there are some amenity type things that are looked at and if you have them your number keeps going up. If you don1t have them, apparently they try to slot you along with similar homes. This is the first time live heard that, this year is the first time live heard you speak of any such type of rating or grading. I don't recall that ever in the past. Is that kind of what you meant Roman? Somehow your home and all the rest of homes have been given a number and that number classifica- tion means that you have four walls and a garage and then from there it just keeps, whatever gets added on to it. Craig maybe you want to tell them what some of those amenities are. Craig Zinter: What we are talking about is a grading system for the structure itself and they are established based on the quality of construction and the functional basis of the home and as additional pl umbing, bathroom fixtures, complete baths, finished basements, fireplaces, things that add value in the market place as they appear in the home are factors that are added into the value for assessment purposes because our goal is to reflect the value that that property would bring on the open market. By the term market value, I assume that to be basically 90% of what it would sell for, so 1111 be referring to market value and expecting it to be roughly the 90% range of what it should sell for so there is a difference of what you might call a modular home, a 241 x 321 modular home and a home that is architecturally designed with flag stone floors and having something like 2,000 or 2,500 square feet on one floor and having split level or things like that. They don't cost the same thing per square foot to replace and they will not sell for the same thing and as a result we have to assign some sort of a grading system for the various qualities of construction and styles of construction. Theylre then reflected back to a cost per foot or value per foot in the market place. Roman Roos: Just one other question Craig, this system as established by you as an assessor of the county? Craig Zinter: It's a statewide system that's been put into place but the numbers as far as rates come from Carver County, because this is where the properties are when the properties have sold. Councilman Geving: Could you shed some light on the impact of recent sales in the area in the degree of sales and the cost of those homes when they were sold on properties that are adjacent to or within that neighborhood? And will you shed some light on your continuation of Roman's question, I think it's appropriate. Craig Zinter; One sale by itself does not make the market, it makes the sale price for that home because one home in the neighborhood would sell for 50% more than we had appraised it at does not necessarily mean that home or all of the homes in that neighborhood are going to go up to that I II I I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -5- sale price or 90% thereof. We1re trying to look at an equitability, as a result we Ire trying to scan the entire market, the some 260 sales that took place in the City of Chanhassen and the sale period from July 1, 1980 through June 30, 1982 to get a feel of the entire market, and not just that particular house in that particular neighborhood to go to that one and change the value there. The main thing above all is the equality amongst the comparable or similar property. Councilman Horn: Is this ratio applied uniformly throughout the County? I assume it would be for the structure and do have another form that you use for the land value? Craig Zinter: The land, naturally values change depending upon splita- tion. The same grading system applies to every house in similar quality wherever it is in the County, if it's 07 in Chanhassen it will be a 07 in Norwood or Young America or wherever. There is a slight differential in value for the same square footage in the market place between Chanhassen and Norwood. It's basically another location factor. People are not as readily willing to pay the same price per square footage in Norwood as in Chanhassen. Chanhassen, Chaska and Victoria are very much similar until we get further west then they start to diminish a little in value. Councilman Horn: What is your formula for the western part? Craig Zinter: They vary from 5% increments, the lowest is 10% off what it is here in Norwood, Hamburg, some of the smaller cities out there. Mayor Hamilton: Do you have a question that pertains to the same content? Arthur Kimber: No. Before we got into this, what was the last name you called off? I'm from a homeowner's association. Mayor Hamilton: Well, somebody had written on the list here owner asso- ciation and right below that Mrs. Miles Lord, I don't know if she is with the owner's association. Somebody wrote owner's association, did you write that? Arthur Kimber - 25-505-0360: I thought I wrote Minnewashta Manor, my name is Art Kimber, I'm president of the homeowner's association. 11m here representing the homeowner's association pertaining to Lot 11, Block 3 in the Minnewashta Manor. That lot has eroded to the point where it's not a lot, there is no land there it's all water. Half of Minnewashta Avenue is also under water as a result of the erosion. I filed a petition yesterday, I gave it to Bob Waibel to take up to the Council. The storm waters running down Minnewashta Avenue are gradually deteriorating the whole roadway and our properties. I've talked about this to Bob since 1969, we1ve gotten some relief and then somebody jumps back into it with a change in valuation and we get stabbed with another big jab of tax increase, and we have less and less property to tax. We need some relief both from the standpoint of protecting your property and getting the value down to a point where it's realistic. Mayor Hamilton: Would you like the Assessor to come out and look at your property, has she been out there? Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -6- Arthur Kimber: She was out there last year. I have a letter here and she had the surveyors look at and verify that it was under water. The origi- nal estimate was $7,100, they reduced it to $5,500 if youlre looking for a place to row your boat $5,500 seems like an awful lot of money to me. Mayor Hamilton: Thank you Mr. Kimber. Would you like to make a comment Craig? Craig Zinter: One thing on this one, we did talk a little bit with Don about that one that is a public street, it's being used as an access and there was a little conflict there. Itls kind to be a unique situation in itself. I Mayor Hamilton: The next person is Mrs. Miles Lord. Mrs. Miles Lord - 25-260-0110: 11m Pricilla Farris, Mrs. Lord's daughter and she asked me to speak on her behalf. First of all we took some time and made somewhat of a survey comparing our home, my parents home on Christmas Lake with the other homes on Christmas Lake and how they were valued. Welve roughly got them in two categories, one with the house itself and how it was val ued and the second was the land. First of all in valuing the house, they built it about four years ago and the cost of building it approximately $110,000 and itls value was assessed at $129,000 but that mayor may not be correct, however, we feel that when you speak about equal treatment, we are getting unequal treatment in that most of the homes on Christmas Lake are almost double the square footage that this home is and yet they are val ued at either less or those that are twice as much are val ued at just maybe a $10,000 increment more. So we feel that the house itself is a newer home it has not the same quality construction as the older homes have but it1s a three bedroom home and most of the other ones that we are comparing are 4 and 5 bedroom homes so we feel the house itself is getting unequal treatment. Secondly the land, we are being assessed for 100 feet of lakeshore and they said that itls being assessed at $1,000 a lakeshore foot. Now when we looked at all of the other people on Christmas Lake and the next door neighbor has a 312 lakeshore feet plus 9.4 acres that person was assessed at $250,000. Another neighbor has 120 lakeshore feet and was assessed at $93,000, not only does that not seem equal but we also went over to Hennepin County and looked at a home that had 600 lakeshore feet and is being assessed at the amount of, just the land alone, $137,500 which comes out at $229 per lakeshore foot. But the very last point that I would like to make is I think that living on Christmas Lake is a beautiful place to live. I have lived on Dupont Avenue in Minneapolis, downtown for ten years and I would not live next to the pump house where my parents live. I will tell you why, that is the biggest nuisance, I have lived there from time to time when my parents were out of town. I don't sleep all night, there are policemen driving in there with their sirens going, there are people down there some times twenty to thirty during the summer, drunk, crazy, wild, throwing bottles, they are urinating on my parents property, they're defecating on the property, they are coming over and getting on the dock, they are jumping on the dock, they are throwing things allover. If my parents go out and say please leave, they swear at them, one hit my father. This is not a lovely place to live, not only that, when they are having dinner, maybe four or five times a day someone comes to the door and knocks and asks if we can please use your yard for a picnic, can we please use your gate to get our boat in, this is not just in the summer, they come on snowmobiles in the winter the ice fisherman come in wanting to use their I I I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -7- property and finally every single day somebody comes over the property in the winter to check the pump and they become a nui~ance.ju~t going over the property. As far as Ilm concerned, I think Christmas Lake is wonder- ful, but I would never touch the lakeshore property next to the pump. They have it valued as the highest value on Christmas Lake. Itls absolu- tely totally absurd and ridiculous. Craig Zinter: I know that there has been an adjustment made for the walk- way or the access there and the pump station, but I can't speak to the comparisons she's making because I don't have the data to come up with the relationship. Mayor Hamilton: If I could just generally speak about one of your con- cerns and that was the unequal market value from county to county and various locations. I have talked with several people around outside of the seven county metro area who may live on a lake or whatever, even people in Hennepin County also neighboring Eden Prairie I have talked with several of them. A lot of it deals with the assessor's philosophy on how he is going to assess the property. He would like to be at a 90% assessment of market value. The Assessor in Hennepin County or in some other county he may feel that the 75-80% is equitable and try to attain that. So you have a situation that is unfair statewide, you don't have the equalization as I have seen it statewide. There's quite a disparity and consequently that's part of the problem you're having there. Pricilla Farris: I understand that, but would also suggest that maybe he speak to the realtor that valued our property saying that it was at least 1/3 less than what he valued it at, as far as what we could sell that on open market for. Councilman Geving: Last year we made a number of appraisals on our own from the standpoint of the Council regarding lakeshore properties. Now I here tonight the possibility that the $800 that we were talking about last year is now $1,000 on lake frontage is that correct? Craig Zinter: The only lake value that changed from the rate we used last year was Lake Minnewashta and that dropped. Mayor Hamilton: You'll all have an opportunity to make your comments. I know that's incorrect, but weill go on with the individual. Mr. Wallace Otto. Mr. Wallace Otto - 25-015-0500: I live in Waconia, speaking of eva- luations over here which doesn't excite me to much because I don't pay that I pay in dollars but my question, this is a two year period, we had an estimated market value of $141,700, then it went up the following year to $175,000 and then we had an assessment here on the same piece of property for $348,000. This year it dropped down to $234,900. That1s valuations but in this first one we were paying a tax of $2,400, this year we are paying $4,000. I guess that's the point that I am trying to make and I'd like to find out how he arrives at that? There are no services. There is no buildings. Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -8- Craig Zinter: I can't speak to the tax on this property other than the fact that it's an ag piece of property and that's at 19% of its market valuel for it's assessed value. The mill rate is generated through the budgets. To be able to explain the change in the value I would meet the field card and I don1t have that data here, it's upstairs. Either through a classi- fication, I think that you were in contact with me we talked a few times and whether there were some changes in the classification evidently on that piece of property. Mr. Wallace Otto: That's another thing that I would like to know is the classification on the property. Craig Zinter: That you will have to go upstairs to get. My analysis shows that the agricultural properties in the county are roughly 73% of what they are selling for, that is because of a decision of the County Board of Commissioners. Councilwoman Watson: But itls alright to assess 90% in Chanhassen on the same agricultural property. Craig Zinter: No the agricultural property in Chanhassen falls in with the market we have had. It has tested that it falls in roughly the same relationship as it does in the western part of the County. Mayor Hamilton: The next person is Dorothy Doughty. Dorothy Doughty: 11m questioning the increased valuation of the 74 acres of agricultural non-homestead piece of land. It went up to $29,500 to $48,600. There is a tenant who is sharecropping who does not use the majority of this 74 acre part because it is to wet to farm. In other words it's part of a larger piece. I Craig Zinter: I guess I would refer you up to Lana upstairs to get a breakdown on that piece of property as far as where the amount of tillable and so on. Mayor Hamilton: We are getting all the comments and questions that you folks asked this evening are being recorded. We will expect in those cases where an answer to a question is required Craig will respond to us and then this Board will respond in kind to that on June 6th or that week. Next person is Mr. & Mrs. John Ziegler. Mr. John Ziegler - 25-005-2000 and 25-005-1900: We would like to comment on a couple of items on our property, well itls really two pieces of pro- perty in Minnewashta parkway. We moved out here ten years ago and one of the issues that troubles me greatly is that we moved into an area that was described as rural. Then the Planning Commission last year I was told is intending to maintain the rural character of the county on the western edge of Chanhassen which puts us right next to Victoria, that's about as far west as you can go and still remain in the rural of the county. Frankly, I think I am being penalized for farming. We've got a building 'I for sheep and other animals that our daughter is raising. Welve seen our taxes go up year after year. Take for instance a 40 acre farm near us where the taxes are ranging only $2300 and welve got 24 acres total with taxes of $2600. I think some of that probably ties in with the I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -9- fact that we have lakeshore on Lake Minnewashta. live come to note that the lakeshore we have has been valued not at $1,000 but at $200 and we still are valued at $88,000 for unbuildable, unusable lakeshore. That's a lot of money for land we really can't use. I'm concerned because I believe that first of all, people in Carver County are being charged a heavy lake tax. If you live on the lake you pay a heavy tax and 11m con- cerned that the issues are that the greater the value of my property, the larger my tax. I don't have any children in school anymore, but I'm paying a heavier tax than people living elsewhere maybe with 10 kids and paying less money than I am for school tax. I'd like to serve notice that I am going to contact our legislators and ask them to come up with a lake tax proposal which will be much more equitable across the state. Secondly, lid like to tie in there also that the same thing is true for our school tax. When we have children going to school, I think a per capita tax needs to be levied, on the adults in the community so that rather than paying my school tax based on the value of my property, I think also this needs to be looked at. I would really like to ask the assessor and his staff to take a very careful look at our properties. One other question. When are my taxes going to go down? Mayor Hamilton: The next person is Esther Rask. Esther Rask - 25-660-0130: My name is Esther Rask and I live in St. Paul and I have a cabin on Lake Minnewashta. Last year the value of the lake property was $30,000 and last June I received, which thought was a lot because our taxes were over $600 and last June I received a notice from the Assessor's Office that they revalued the property at $11,000, and I said to my husband, finally welre going to get a break on our taxes. So when I got the tax statement it was a lot less and I was real elated about that and about thirteen days later, I think the property taxes were maybe $240. Then about 8 days later I got another notice and it went from $242 to $1,300 and I just about was floored I couldn't understand it. So anyway I called the tax assessor and I told him my problem and I wanted to know where they get this assessment from. I said it was so much lower and now all of a sudden it skyrocketed just in 8 days and I couldn't understand it and he said it was a computer error or something to that effect. Welve been on that lake for over thirty years and we always paid our taxes and we haven't had any improvements on the property or anything. The last few springs the water is so high that it takes us almost the whole month of May before the water will go down so that we can even build a dock. We1re only out there you could say three months out of the year, because it's just a small cabin I think it's two rooms and we have 80 foot lake front and I just think this is outrageous. So they did give a $300 reduction on our taxes but they're still over a $1,000. Now they have valued the property at $50,200 which I think is way to much yet. We've been there almost close to forty years and this is outrageous. Mayor Hamilton: Is that a summer cabin home? Esther Rask: It's just a summer cabin. Councilman Geving: How much lake footage do you have? Esther Rask: Eighty feet, but it1s all flooded out we can't even use it until maybe, we can't get a dock out there yet. Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 10- Mayor Hamilton: The next person is Dean Bowman. Dean Bowman - 25-420-0370: I live in Lotus Lake Estates and I think I I really have to go up and talk to Lana about my problem, but just to sum- marize, last year my assessed valuation went up $40,000 and I just moved here three years ago from out of state and it came as a big surprise and a big shock of course when I got my tax bill this year it was commensurate with that. The property since it was assessed first year, has not changed so I don't understand the $40,000 increase. I do not live on the lake, I can't see the lake, so I have to apparently get an explanation. But I would also like to point out that in Lotus Lake the property value is cer- tainly going down because 1/3 of the houses within the area are for sale right now. There are 13 houses for sale and about 40 pieces of property, Mayor Hamilton: You say that your market value increase $40,000 each of the last two years? Dean Bowman: No just one time, last year. Councilman Geving: How old is your home? Dean Bowman: 1980. Councilman Horn: Craig, if people are members of a lakeownerls asso- ciation and have that membership, does that do anything to the tax value on their main property or only on the common ownership property? I Craig Zinter: Normally there is the transfer of value of sorts in an interior lot in a plat where each lot has lake rights, differently than a piece of property that is platted away from the lake that would not have it. It's not appraised as anything "X" amount to that property it's looked at in the market place when that property sells, the lots in the plat like Lotus Lake generally dictate more value per foot than what they would in a non-lake setting. Councilman Geving: Is that one of those things that might change the rating of a home from a 7 to an 8 or 9 to a 10? Craig Zinter: No that's a land value. Councilman Horn: So they do get some credit on the land value for being in the proximity of the lake? Craig Zinter: Yes for the right of access to the lake. Dean Bowman: What do you mean by right of access? there if I walked a quarter of a mile. I can go swimming Craig Zinter: Yes, well if I remember the covenants correctly at the Lotus Lake there are amenities to that beach lot and those are things that nl not everybody would have in another subdivision and thatls what were talking about. I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 1 1 - Councilman Horn: But doesn't the beach lot get the tax as the lake frontage. Craig Zinter: It gets assessed as the lake frontage in a diminished value based on what it is valued in itself, it's a non buildable lot much of the value of that lot transfers to the building lots in the interior in the plat. Councilman Horn: No matter where they are located or is that proximity to this taken into account? Craig Zinter: The proximity does take in effect because those over along 101 are not as valuable as those that are just across the street from the houses that are backed up against that beachlot. It varies where they are located in the plat and the proximity to that lake, to that beachlot. Councilwoman Swenson: Do you consider then that the homeowner's asso- ciation and the recreational beach lot whether or not it has dockage, is that considered an amenity like a fireplace or something like that, as an added va 1 ue? Craig Zinter: Where a plat has beach access whether it be through a com- mon area beach lot that type of situation those properties tend to sell for more than if the land along the lake is sold down to the lake to the individuals the back ones are left without thatls the difference welre reflecting. Mayor Hamilton: What it amounts to is double tax property, the beachlot itself pays the tax and the homeowner's within that association pay a tax and then you also attach a value of some IIXIl number of something however you come up with it, to the house also so you get a double tax off being in the association to answer Dean's question. The next person is David Halla. David Halla - 25-025-2500: I have talked with Craig about this problem and Lana Larson and I was instructed by Lana through Craig to come to this meeting. I'm not here to complain about my taxes, 11m here to complain about my classification. Originally when I, when we bought property in 1962 there were no buildings on it and in 1969 when we bought additional property out there I decided to build a home on the property. We own 106 acres out there. Ever since live been out there live been raising cattle and we are termed agricultural even though we are in the nursery business because we grow and sell our own product, thatls federal and state, I think Craig even all uded to that. However, when I originally built, Jim Fiebelkorn, who was the assessor came out, went through my house, put the value on it, I have no problem with the assessed value on it, it's only the classification on it. Recently it's been changed from farm agri- cultural to residential and I would just like to know, 11m here to get the explanation from Craig as to why it was changed and why I am not entitled to the farm classifications when we are allowed to have one home on a farm property? Craig Zinter: The property was changed, you mentioned in 1979 and since that time we have just carried on that residential classification after Lana and I started. The question as I told you when we talked by phone was fronted to the County Attorney and also to the State Department Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 1 2- of Taxation based on whether 2 acres should be under your situation, should be classified agricultural owning a half interest in the balance or the 106 acres around it and both sources felt that the current classification I of residential on the 2 acres was correct in that the classification has to be derived at from the parcel in itself and that's the only parcel that you have in your own ownership. David Halla: That's not correct. Craig Zinter: The other one is owned jointly with your brother, correct? David Halla: But 11m an individual one half owner and it is recorded on the register of deeds accordingly. Craig Zinter: Right. David Halla: So not only do I own 53 acres, my one half undivided interest, but I also own an additional 2 acres. Craig Zinter: You own the 2 acres where you live and then half of the undivided half interest. The attorney's said it was arguable as to say that the 53 acres that you might own undividedly are contiguous to your house or if they are 53 acres that are elsewhere, that was their rationale for it. David Halla: They are continuous to my house. Craig Zinter: The 106 acres are, but the 53 acres that you own as an undivided half interest are hard to define which piece they are. That was what the question was coming out. I Mayor Hamilton: I don It think we need all the outbursts, you may not agree but it's not going to accomplish anything to do that. David Halla: How do you wish to clarify that particular problem? Do you wish to have it resurveyed and at whose expense to see where that 53 acres joins the land that I have now. Let me just explain something, I think it's kind of comical. 11m a single person but I do have some assets and all of you can all ude to the fact that I I ve been married once before and for some reason or other I guess men enjoy getting, in my opinion, the short end of the stick. So I split that 2 acres out of there to protect my brother's interest and also my own interest so that if I got married that a woman wouldnlt end up owning one half of my half whom I share with my brother. Why should I invite a stranger in? That's why the 2 acres are split out. But there's also an additional 53 acres now, how are you going to determine where those 53 acres are? You know you're talking about 106 acres here and youlre telling me it's a point where the 53 acres abutts the 2 acres, youlre talking about a total amount of property here. I think it kind of becomes a little bit silly to say they donlt know where that 53 acres abuts the 2 acres that I have split out to protect my interest. Now, I can retitle that property if that's what's necessary, I but what's interesting is that for a period 8 years that property was titled exactly the same way that it is now and that hasn't been changed, now that has nothing to do with Craig here. This was done between Jim Fiebelkorn, when he left another assessor came in and then Craig Zinter came came in after that. So someone and me trusting in the bureaucracy I didnlt I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -13- catch it. So I guess that's my error, I did catch it now, I'm not even going to complain about the $635 more taxes I got assessed this year, I don It even mind that. I am concerned about classification. I think it's wrong, I think it should be changed back the way it was and for some reason it was that way for 8 years, you didn't change it, someone else did and it is wrong and it should go back to the way that was originally. Mayor Hamilton: David, there are 106 acres totally being farmed, all 106 acres? David Halla: That's right. Craig Zinter: With the exception of the 2 acres for your house. David Halla: Even the 2 acres that are on my home, if anybody wants to come out and look they're welcome to look, I have a fence that goes within 5 feet of the back of my house, the registered angus cattle that I have come right up to the garage. I have an area of my yard fenced off with a electric fence so I don1t get my yard decorated, but other than that there is cattle all around, there's farm equipment in the yard, there's corrals, anybody that thinks 11m not doing it, come look. live got nothing to hide. 11m only concerned that the classification was changed and I didn't catch it but I am here at your request Craig, so I would just as soon hear your explanation, now what live heard hasn't been an explanation. Mayor Hamilton: I guess what I would like to do is give you an opportunity to respond back to this Board in writing. We are going to have to deal with that issue also. The next person is Warren Erdman. Warren Erdman - 25-420-0150: I live in Lotus Lake Estates on Brule Circle. My property backs up to Highway 101. I have done a comparison of my lot value with other lots in the area and it's valued as high or higher than some other lots that are significantly larger and also that do not have the negative feature of backing up to 101. My first question is, are these factors taken into account in determining the value of the lot, if not why not? Also, the value of my structure has increased this year when to the best of my knowledge the surrrounding homes in the area have not increased in value unless they have had a building permit which justifies an increase. Craig Zinter: The location backing up to 101 is to have been part of the value that was placed on that lot and I don't kn~w which comparisons you are making or why the value of the property went up as far as the struc- ture, Lana could explain that. Initially there was an adjustment made for those lots that backed up on 101. Warren Erdman: Is it just for the lots that back up directly onto 101, what about the lots across the street? My lot is valued the same as those that are larger and they are obviously not as close to 101. Craig Zinter: There was a scaling of lot values initially for the 101 area and across the street and as you got closer to the lake. The resi- dential market has not taken any gigantic increases or downturns in the area in the last year or year and a half. We would have to take a look at the specifics of your property to find out where that change came from. Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 14- David Halla: would just like to add one thing back to mine. To clear up the issue of where that 53 acres abuts my property, if you are familiar with our property, it is split right down the middle by Highway 101. The I west side is the golf course side which is some 50 acres. The other side where my house is built contains 56 acres, thatls the same side as my house is on so if you have a problem I would suggest that you look at the map and see where that 56 acres abuts mine. Leonard Hein - 25-615-0220, 25-615-0270: My problem isnlt all that great but I have done a little research work just on my own lot that I have. I moved out here ten years ago in the Pleasant Acres area. I am not on the lake. I bought a lot adjacent to where my house was built. All I use it for is garden and a few fruit trees and things like this. The first year the value of it incrased 6%, in 1977 10%, in 1978 it increased 73% and 1979 40%, 1980 55%, 1981 60%, 1982 35% and this year about 42%. My question is I paid $918 tax for a plot of land to have a garden on seems awfully high. I have paid more money in taxes than what I have paid for the empty lot. How far are you people going to go with your taxes? I am not too far away from retiring and I bought this lot for something to do to keep me busy but if I retire there is no way that I can keep it with the way you people are taxing. Mayor Hamilton: The taxes that you pay on your property, approximately 18% of those dollars goes to the City, 54% goes to the school district and the remainder goes to the county so the city, by far, takes the smallest amount of dollars to probably do the largest amount of servicing of your property for you. The next person is Theodore Pahl. Theodore Pahl - 25-035-0200, 25-002-0200: My property is between the radio station on Highway 212 and the malt plant. It1s covered with water. The taxes when I bought it was $235 and now they are $1300 and the valuation they have got on it now itls going to be about $4,000 for next year. We havenlt done a thing to it. I Mayor Hamilton: When did you purchase the property? Theodore Pahl: In 1955 or 1956. Sever Peterson: Theodore Pahl asked me if I would accompany him tonight on his property because I am hoping to crop some of it this year. I was down there yesterday and we looked over some of the property in the river bottoms with a boat and as Theodore indicated it was under water. This property on the river bottoms, we have a concern as farmers in that area and I have talked to some of the other farmers in that area, the Middelstad family and I have spoken with the Harry Hartung family, these are other landowners in the valley, and we have a problem there. Theodore mentioned to me that Prior Lake put a three foot culvert in thatls now since last year that goes into the Minnesota River and every year there is more and more people dumping their water through ditches and culverts and this and that and sewers and so on into the river and we get a flood there just about any month of the year. Thatls a problem for us agriculturally down I there. It used to be just sometimes an early spring flood. In former times there was not only residential property, not only residential homes down there but I have a piece of property that actually had a slaughter house on it. These things have all gone because the flooding is so fre- I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 1 5- quent and there are no services. We need some help on the taxes and with the rest of the state dumping their water there in the river valley it's complicating it. Our situation, we think, is getting worse. Ted had indi- cated to me that he was getting $12.00 or $12.50 an acre for rent on it and I told him that I didn't know that I would pay that or not because it is under water. We have a real problem down there and we are asking for some kind of consideration. Mayor Hamilton: Is the ground, in your opinion, of any value? Is it tillable? Sever Peterson: Some of it is. There is certainly a value to some of it. I don It mean to stand up here and say there is no value down there, there certainly is. Mayor Hamilton: How many acres are involved? Theodore Pahl: 246 acres. Mayor Hamilton: Of the 246, how many acres do you think you could till? Sever Peterson: I am hoping to get on 40 of it. Councilman Geving: This is all south of Highway 2l2? Sever Peterson: Yes, it is. Mayor Hamilton: The next person is Donald Coban. Donald Coban - 25-023-1100: I live at 8821 Sunset Trail. I moved out into this area in 1977. We purchased 2.45 acres and built a home. We have a pretty good view. That1s what we built it for. Every year our taxes have been going up and our assessed valuation has gone up considerable between the year before and last year. I couldn't be here. I was out of the country at that time. When I got back it was too late for the meeting. I tried to go to the county board and they said as long as I hadn't been here they couldn't help me out but to try again this year. My valuation is in there, the same thing this year, however, this year it1s a little dif- ferent. That view is going to be a dump. Is there any valuation adjust- ment that's going to be made for that? My realtor says if you were to bring somebody out there between last year and this year you could count on 10 to 20% difference in price of what the property was valued just for the uncertainty of having a dump in that area. I would appreciate some informati on that. lover look it totally. That1s my only view. Mayor Hamilton: I don It think Craig was at the meetings with Metro Council people dealing with the dump issue and that very point was brought up that home values are suffering because of the tentative position of that land and they realize that values in areas where dumps are proposed are less than they would be were not a dump proposed there. The next person is W. H. Whitehill. Walter Whitehill - 25-009-2500: My Zinter, 1111 buy what you say in that valuations have not gone up in the last couple of years and yet every year for five years you have increased my valuation and taxes. The most we have added to that home, which is about 40 years old, is a coat of paint and Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 1 6- replacement of a furnace that wore out. We have had an increase in our valuation over a five year period of 93%. I wonder how it is that you, each year, push our taxes up about 30% and yet you say that valuations I don It go up. Is the tax burden going up that fast in this county? I want to pull my own weight. Craig Zinter: The market value in the market place has not changed in the last year but in the years prior to that there was a change. I would have to look at the specifics of the appraisal to know where the change was in the value. The taxes by themselves are going to go up depending on what budgets are levied. Walter Whitehill: If you say you visited and you tried to bring it up to what the market values were last year, why did you do it to me again this year? The house hasnlt changed. How can I get some relief? Mayor Hamilton: Through this board, for one thing and then through the county. Thatls the process. Craig will send us a reply to your question then we will deal with your question and his reply and either recommend a tax reduction or no change and you will know that June 6th hopefully. The next person is Earl Holasek. Earl Holasek: 1982 to 1983, the farm that $490,000, how Mr. Zinter, you said that the assessment didnlt go up from my market value last year was $140,000 for the greenhouse and I have there, itls 44 acres and the market value this year is can you sit there and say that it didn't go up. Craig Zinter: Until 1981 there was no value carried on any of the greenhouse structure out there. I Earl Holasek: There shouldnlt be a value on greenhouse structure because there is no foundation under them. It's not a permanent building. A greenhouse, to me, is like a grain bin, you are storing your commodities in it. Craig Zinter: Grain bins also have a value and are appraised for tax purposes. Earl Holasek: How can you go from $140,000 value up to just about a half million? Craig Zinter: The majority of that was placing a value on the greenhouse area that had not to that point been valued. Earl Holasek: My taxes went from $1,400 up to just about $7,000 and I just canlt pay them. Greenhouses are agricultural. They are not something made out of gold. Craig Zinter: They are agricultural. Councilwoman Watson: Is then the difference between the $140,000 and $490,000 is for the assessment on temporary structures? Craig Zinter: The definition of permanency becomes questionable but it is an added structure, an asset to that property that does have a market value in place. I I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -17- Councilwoman Watson: $300,000? Craig Zinter: There is about six acres in the greenhouses. Mayor Hamilton: I can't help but say that it seems like when you have a situation like this where there are tremendous increases and I have had people call me who have had their taxes doubled, quadrupled, if in fact, that market value that you are suggesting at the higher rate is fair and in all cases people haven't disagreed with that, if you want to reach that level then why don It you do it in a mo~e equitable and a little more taste- ful fashion and work out some arrangement with the people so that Mr. Holasek's case for example, you could go to him and say, the value of your property is going to increase to $490,000 and we are going to allow you to payor your taxes are going to be increased over a four year period of time to reach that point. At that time he knows and he can anticipate what his taxes are going to be and it's a little bit easier for him to swallow and it's much easier for him to come up with the dollars to pay that rather than hitting a guy with an increase of $5,600 in one year and that's totally unreasonable. Why can It you work out some type of a schedule for increase rather than have such a giant increase in one year? Craig Zinter: Because the law does not allow for that. If the market value is there we are directed to place that value on it. Mayor Hamilton: So you don It have to increase it to $490,000 in one year. You can work out a schedule and you are going to increase it to a quarter of that for this year, another quarter next year, and the year after, what ever it takes to get up there. There is nothing in the law that says you have to assess that property at $490,000 this year or 90%. It doesn't tell you that you have to have that property at 90% of the market value of that property. You have a lot of leeway in your job. You have from 65% to 90% and if your goal is to reach 90% on everybodys property., why don't you do it in a little more tasteful fashion and try to help people out rather than hammer them over the head all the time. The next person is John Hagedorn. John Hagedorn - 25-255-0080: How can you warrant raising market value of $30,000 this year. All we have done is paint the basement walls. Mrs. Hagedorn: It is a small two bedroom house and it's now valued over $102,000. It was built in 1890. How is this possible? The tax assessor was out and she said she liked my house. I have no carpeting, no drapes, no nothing. How is this possible? My property is at 1145 Holly Lane. I have no lakeshore. I can It see the lake and there is lots of beer cans and things like that. My children can It go out in the yard and play because during the summer people go up and down and yell and make funny noises. Craig Zinter: I would have to refer you upstairs to talk to Lana about the make up of that property. On those properties that were inspected and she found that our data was not up to date, there were adjustments made for those comparisons but as a general rule there was no level increase in pro- perty value for the City of Chanhassen. John Michelson - 25-160-0250, 25-160-0270: We have been out in Carver Beach since 1928. This is bare land. If the City of Chanhassen improperly or did not notify us to remove our cabin would be violation of the grand- father act in other words we were told over the phone to dig a foundation Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 1 8- below this thing. After taking the cabin down we werenlt able to get a permit to put the thing back up again. I say we were not properly notified that if we did not dig that foundation in there below the old cabin that we I could never build again and now they are blocking us to build on those lots entirely. I say it's the fault of the Village of Chanhassen for not pro- perly notifying us. Since last year they have gone up in valuation from $1,500 a lot to $2,800. There has nothing been done. How you can raise it just about double in one year, I don It know. Now, in clarification of my problems with the City of Chanhassen, did they or should they not have notified us of the grandfather law prior to our taking our cabin down about 12 years ago? Mayor Hamilton: None of us were here twelve years ago that are on the Council currently. I am not familiar with your property or the problem that you had with it. Probably the best thing would be to come in and talk to our staff now and explain the situation. Severin Peterson - 25-036-1800, 25-036-1900: Those two pieces of property are located at the extreme southeast corner of Carver County. Last Sunday I circled the county marker with a boat. It is floodplain land. I have a real problem with the floods. If I could get some consideration there I would like to review it. I would also like to add the City doesnlt main- tain any of the road. The river meanders through there and eats away every year. The road moves and we have to make the road and one time they told us if we did anything and they didn't like it and they had to redo it they would assess us to redo it. Just to go back to Mr. Pahl IS situation, I mentioned 40 acres, he mentioned he had 246 acres, that's total acres down there, there is 150 of that thatls cleared land and of that 150, itls not I 40 of 246, itls really 40 of 150 that we will be cropping this year. On mine I don It think I am so fortunate, I donlt know if I will get a crop on any of it because it lays exactly beside the river. I believe on my property there are 33 acres. Another parcel that I would like to address if I could and that is 25-026-2000. This is a farm that I bought last October. It's down on County Road 14. The barn we are not using because itls falling down unfortunately. I have some people living in the house. I have put in a new well and thatls the improvement I have made to the pro- perty. I paid $1,041 an acre for the property and I am assessed this year $2,251 an acre. I would like to bring the disparity in front of the group here and if whatever recommendations you make for me, but I am real unhappy about that. I don't know what to do. I can It afford it. I agree with Mr. Holasek and the other people that have spoken here tonight and it's really not relivant to our assessments but somewhere may be there is a way we can get together a little bit and we have got to stop the spending somewhere but we also have to live with our assessments and I am with the others, expecially Mr. Holasek, I can It pay for my tillable acres on that farm that I just mentioned that I am going to be paying about $58 per tillable acre taxes and I am farming it. Craig Zinter: I think there is one point that should be mentioned as far as when the option was signed on that farm. You make it sound like everything was consumated last fall. Severin Peterson: I did have an option on that farm. I believe it was I five years ago. I didn't know I was going to exercise it last October. Land values have dropped since then on farm land. I would like to know how these farms are valued. I would like to know if there are comparable sales I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 1 9- or if it's productivity of the farm or whatever. There is one other thing, Mr. Zinter, that I think should be brought out and I feel a bit awkward about this, but the other day Mr. Pahl and I were in your office. I have always been treated very hospitable by yourself there but the other day when Mr. Pahl and I were there, there was a lady apparantly a taxpayer that was speaking to someone else in the office and I believe Lana was the lady that did the assessing in our area and we asked for her and they said well, she is not here so someone else was helping us and that was all okay and then this lady that was being helped in the office came out and said, it's not true, Lana is here. They told you she is not but she is here and the lady that was helping me was extremely rude to the lady that informed us of that and if I would have been that lady I would have been very, very hurt. I would have been crushed at the· way she was treated and I didn't know what was happening, I was just standing there and this lady looked very hurt and I didn't even quite hear all the conversation and maybe I's not sharing it correctly but the lady that was hurt is in the room tonight. Mr. Zinter, I feel, I don1t want to sound like I am attacking you, I have always had a good relationship there. You have always received me. You have taken time for us. It was an area that I don't feel that when we are paying these taxes and hiring these people we don1t want their sass and we donlt want their lies and maybe that's putting it on too strong, but I am afraid the lady is so upset that she maybe won't speak for herself and I want to speak for her. I felt badly for her. I am not saying you condone that. I am sure you donlt but I want to bring that to your attention. Councilman Horn: Craig, is this property assessed at 70% of its market value like the rest of the agricultural property in Carver County? Craig Zinger: It's assessed similarly to the rest of the agricultural pro- perty assuming the market has changed in the five years since the option was entered into, the value of that property would have changed commen- surate with the rest of it to bring it to the market value of say the piece that Tim Earhart bought down the road from this one. All agricultural pro- perty is valued based on its classification of the amount of tillable ground, non-tillable pasture, waste ground, whatever, the same rates are applied county wide for the taxable value of that property based on the market place. It is not at 70% of what the price that was signed the date of sale last October, no, it is not in that situation. It's more than that. You have to take into consideration that the purchase price of that property was arrived at some five years ago. Councilman Horn: So you are saying itls 70% of the value of the property that was sold down the road? Craig Zinter: In comparison of that property, yes. If you are to assume this 120 acres would sell at the same rate per acre as what the piece that sold down the road. If it were sold at the same time as that one it would be roughly 70%/75% some place in that neighborhood of what it sold for. Councilman Horn: Is the land comparable? Craig Zinter: I think the piece that sold down the road may have a little higher percentage tillable but I don't know how big a difference there might be. Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -20- Councilman Horn: The records upstairs could show this and how itls arrived at. Craig Zinter: Yes. Mayor Hamilton: When you said the market value is based on what you think the market value of that property is, regardless of what that it sold for, you are throwing in a factor that I am not sure you ought to deal with. The property was sold for a price that Mr. Peterson paid for it and it seems to me that is the figure you ought to use not some inflated figure that you think maybe it would have been worth if someone else might have bought it. You have got an awful lot of "ifs" in there that you have abso- lutely no substantiation for. I Craig Zinter: What I am referring to is that the property was not on the open market last October at the time the CRB came through. It was on the market five years ago when the price was arrived at and so there is a dif- ference in history between those two points in time that would affect the value. Councilwoman Watson: How do you make a judgment of what precisely that difference is value is? Craig Zinter: Our sales analysis does not use any sale that is over two years old. We do not use an agreement that was arrived at back at that point. Councilwoman Watson: But it did sell for that price last October. Option I or no option it did sell for $1,041 an acre. You would not necessarily have known he had an option for five years all you actually know is that he paid $1,041 an acre. It seems relatively simple. Mayor Hamilton: If someone was willing to sell it for that price I don't know how you can inflate it. Craig Zinter: They had an agreement that was signed that would not open it to the open market. Mayor Hamilton: Are all agreements that people make put in the tax files then so you review any agreements anybody might make? Councilwoman Watson: How would necessarily know whether they had an agreement or not? Craig Zinter: The question came up in talking to Sever and he said there was an option. Councilman Geving: Do you use the same tax assessor for all agricultural land in Chanhassen? Craig Zinter: In Chanhassen, yes. Councilman Geving: Would you answer the same for residential properties? I Craig Zinter: Yes. I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 - 21 - Sever Peterson: I am curious, where is that other property that you are referring to in relation to my property? Craig Zinter: It's east. It's 80 acres. Sever Peterson: I did go through my farm and I had a neighbor and I classified, I went through a soil survey map. 9% of my farm it says that if it's shallowly ditched it's ideal for ducks, pheasants, and muskrats. 16% has lost 1/3 to 2/3 of the original surface area and it's suited for pasture, erosion is a principle hazard. 24% is severe erosion, 16% has lost 1/3 to all of the top soil, 14% should not be cleared, it must be terraced mechanically before grass can be established. It's a hilly farm. I don It think that I should be valued any differently than anyone else in the room. I am not saying that. I don It think my farm is a special situation. If it is, I am trusting the assessor to bring that to light and I do trust him to do that but I think I have got a situation here when I paid $1,041 for it, that's what it is worth, it was an arms length transaction, I have known the people all my life if that meant anything. I would like to go to Mr. Holasek's situation and I am aware of a piece of property with greenhouses on it that's actually been brought to my atten- tion through Mr. Holasek and Mr. Klingelhutz and they couldn't sell the greenhouses. They aren't worth anything. The greenhouses devalued the property. William Schmidt - 25-009-2200, 25-009-2100: My complaint is the valuation on these two parcels. In the last three years the taxes on the land have gone up five. times and I have tried to get an explanation on it and I have talked with Lana on it and she tells me it's because of the change in the classification from, apparently there is an agricultural and there is a residential. I was assessed at a value of approximately $2,000 an acre in 1980 and 1981 it's now up to $5,000 an acre. I am finding out that my neighbors who have more acreage are assessed at a value of $2,000 an acre. Is there some law that precludes me from that type of classification? Craig Zinter: Yes. The classification for agricultural has been upheld by the courts to be over ten acres. William Schmidt: In other words if I had ten acres my total taxes would be 1 e s s . Craig Zinter: Yes, if you get the agricultural classification it makes quite a difference in the tax bill. William Schmidt: I have got a neighbor on one side that has got 57 acres and he is assessed at $2,000 an acre and he doesn't farm it. He rents out about three acres that somebody else is tilling and I don It understand he can get $2,000 an acre on his land that is not used for anything. Frank Lockovitch: I am here to formally present a petition to the Carver County Assessor's Office on behalf of the Lotus Lake Estates taxpayers association. The premise of the petition is twofold. One, is the over valuation of our land in that subdivision based on previous valuations as if that land had full utilization of lake rights and on the second issue which you alluded to earlier Mayor, a double taxation situation exists in that subdivision by virtue of a community outlot. I have the petitions subscribed to by the homeowners who are also members of the t payers as so- Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -22- ciation in that subdivision. We have gone through and taken our entire plat, related it to square footage on a aggregate basis, took the land valuations that apply to that and we are being valued at $2.37 per square I foot of land. We have no lakeshore. We have no full utilization of lake rights. There are many other locations. We have statistics to support it that have true lakeshore, lake frontage and full utilization of lake rights that range between 60¢ per square foot up to $1.80 per square foot. They are enjoying much more utilization on the lake than are we. Councilman Horn: Did you break that down on land value and property value? Frank Lockovitch: Yes. My statistics are on land only. Raymond Schuyt - 25-420-0030: For me, I am new in this country, I moved here 2~ years ago, so I am very aware of the farmers problems. For me to move to Chanhassen was to compare Edina taxes and Hennepin County taxes with Carver County. People told me Hennepin, way too high, you should move west you don't pay such taxes there. I moved west and I got the shock of my life. I live in Lotus Lake Estates. I am not talking about my indivi- dual situation, I am talking generally because I think a lot of people in this area, not only in Carver County, but everywhere, I get the feel ing about taxes and I coming from Europe, if you want to talk about taxes that's where they are bad. I think I get the feeling that sometimes the counties are measuring with two measurements, either Mr. Zinter, you are trying to keep up with Hennepin County because sometimes if you look at the property taxes, friends of us have big houses, 5,000 square feet, and they have lake rights and where we live we no lake rights and they pay less taxes, they have more land than somebody with half the property, half the I land, and no rights at all, living at the middle of Highway 101. I would like to do something about it. I donlt think you (Mr. Zinter) yourself are totally responsible for what is going on. I would hope when all the things you have heard from all the people and I see the Council gives support to the people that live in this area that you really seriously wi 11 try to do something about this. Councilman Horn: You are paying on a Minnetonka School District Mill Rate but you are paying on a Carver County assessed valuation of your property. If you couple that with the fact that you as a residential property owner are being assessed at 90% of the market value and you are paying for an overall tax base where a large portion are paying at a 70% property value you can see what that does. Mr. Benson, Hennepin County: County at 75% is not true. median. This quoting average ratios in Hennepin We don't have anything under 90%. It's a Councilman Horn: Thatls my point, he is paying school district taxes to a Hennepin County school district but his property value is being compared with the overall Carver County average in which a large percentage of the property values here are being based on a 70% evaluation. So his 90% as far as overall tax base for a county is going to look much higher. Mr. Benson: My point is that all Minnetonka is over 90%. I think they are I very comparable to what Carver County is. I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -23- Bill Gullickson, 25-002-4800: I have written a letter to the Council but I thought of a couple of other things that I want to add. It has to do with differentials in the values. Let's take the 1981 assessments levied in 1982, the 1982 assessment and taxes for 1983, because you just got through saying that you thought values had stayed pretty much the same in the last two years. In 1981 my assessment went up about 23%, my taxes went up about 40%. In 1982 the assessment went up about 30% and my taxes went up about 68% and what1s going to happen in 1984, I really shudder to think ~ecause I already have a 30% additional assessment on my home. Like everybody else here, I wonder where this wildness is taking us. You can It tell us that assessments are staying the same. Basically, what I and a lot of other people have stated here, if you get the taxes up high enough and you get these assessed values up high enough, there isn't one in the world that is going to buy those properties once they see what the taxes on them are. You are way off. This country has been in a bad economic situation for the past two years and you are putting assessments on some homes, it looks like you were assessing them in 1980 when we had a little real estate boom. No more. People aren't buying these homes and they sure arenlt buying them when itls going to cost them over $3,000 a month for mortgage and taxes. Harlan and Eleanor Johnson - 25-545-0270: We bought this house in 1979. The house was built in 1929 and we have made no improvements because we haven It been able to. Our taxes were, the estimated market value was $60,600 and now they have assessed it at $77,200 but the taxes have gone from $619 to $1,152. That's quite a jump for a house that old. There is 720 square feet in this house and I can't remember anybody ever coming out to the house to assess it. Councilman Geving: have to establish. What was the increase due to? I think that's what we I can It see that the structure should have gone up. Councilwoman Watson: How much land do you have? Eleanor Johnson: We have one acre and there is no way to split it because it was a plat, it's Murray Hill Addition and it's replats of Lots 17 and 18. The lot is deep and narrow. Allen Gray - Sunnyslope Addition: I was sitting here wondering if I was wasting my time. I am not hearing much in the way of conciliation. I am also remembering the fact that I appeared before this group, I think it was in 1981, and it was a concilliatory group and concessions were made and then we received a letter in the mail from Mr. Zinter who said that this body had no authority and therefor everything that the Council had said it was rescinded and we were forced to go to the county for an adjustment on the thing. I have a parcel of land which I developed called Sunnyslope. I bought it in 1971 and I paid $12,500 for it. When the sewer was introduced to Lake Riley Blvd in about 1977 I elected to do what I could to plot the land out. We were connected and plotted for the year 1980 and the taxes per lot were $76.66. I had nine lots at that time, I still have nine lots. Total taxes for the year 1980 were $689.94. Due in 1981 they were $332.40, they have multiplied by four times so I paid $2,991.60. Due in 1982 $440.16 per lot so it's up to $3,961.44. Due in 1983 $515.42 total of $4,638.78 in taxes alone. In a three year period that's $11,591.82 and if you add on the outlot we approach $13,000 which is more than I paid for the entire piece of property in 1971. We have not increased the price. The price that we are trying to ask for the property is essentially the same as Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -24- we asked in 1980 when it was listed at that time. We are trying to be com- petitive in the market. We surveyed approximately 60 builders in this market and we said we have got a fire sale, we want to sell this property, I we donlt want to hold on to it anymore and the resounding response was that nobody was interested in Chanhassen or Carver County because of the ridicu- lous taxes. We had one buyer for Lot 8 and he hadnlt heard about the tax circumstance, he caught wind of it and went out to the assessorls office and I am not sure who he talked to, but he asked what would it cost to put up a house that was worth approximately $120,000, land and house, and he was told it would be in the neighborhood of around $2,600/$2,700 and he said I can It afford that. He also indicated that Allen Gray might also very well sue the county because he was unhappy about the tax situation and he reported to me that the person in the tax assessor's office told him, well, lots of luck. I feel there is an antagonistic response. This is not a shot in the dark. We went into Sunnyslope with the idea of making the best possible development that we could in the area. We have hung on as best we could since 1979. We are just about at the end of our tether and when I am getting the response from builders who say, we wouldnlt touch Chanhassen nor would we touch Carver County because of the taxes, I have to hold the tax assessor accountable for the fact that I may very well lose this property and if I lose this property and I am complaining about taxes which I think are prohibitively high, in the meantime it is sitting vacant land where there could be houses on there which would produce a real income for the county. I am objecting to a tax which I think is excessive on a lot. If I lose the property I lose approximately $100,000. If I lose the property, the City of Chanhassen and the County of Carver also loses because the word gets out that a well planned development had to go under I even after a long, long period of holding on. From a point of equity, the least valuable lot that I have is Lot 4 and it has been assessed at 20% more than the other lots that I have. I fail to see the equity in that. Dick Lyman - 25-010-0500, 25-010-1200, 25-010-1500: How does anybody arrive at a figure that increases my green acres valuation when farm land in Minnesota has dropped anywhere up to 50% and I have got a jump in valuation on my green acres. Steve Taylor - 25-420-0140: I am a Lotus Lake Estates homeowner. I have joined in the petition and I would be delighted to sell my property for the number on this card. What I would really appreciate is a clarification on the matter of homestead credit. We purchased the home in April of 1982 and the house had been vacant since January so the card obviously never got sent in. The reward is for a ten month period having our taxes increase from $2,400 to $3,750 presumably because it was non-homesteaded. Is there any appeal from this? Craig Zinter: You said you purchased the property in April 1982 and you moved in at that time? Steve Taylor: Yes. Craig Zinter: As of January of 1982, the property was not occupied? Steve Taylor: There were some people living there for a while that were relatives of the builder but it is my understanding there were no economic rents ever exchanged. I I I I Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -25- Craig Zinter: There is a classification of mid-year homestead that1s eli- gible for ownership and occupancy prior to June 1st. The owner is respon- sible for an application prior to June 15th but it is a process and it is abateable which would take that $1,300 increase in taxes for non-homestead and cut it in half. Steve Taylor: I applied for homestead as soon as we bought the home. You are saying that this should have been another form, another step? Craig Zinter: Yes. The taxes that are due and payable in 1983 could have, I don't know that they didn't, but if the number is $1,300 difference bet- ween the two figures that tells me that it does not have a mid-year homestead on it and itls full non-homestead and that there is a possibility of cutting that difference in half even yet. It would take an application at the office or an abatement. Ted Coey - 25-001-0300: I resent greatly being compared to Hennepin County. I moved here out of Minnetonka to get away from Hennepin County because of the tax structure. I have been out here since 1976. If Hennepin County is being charged at about 90%, why are we being charged at the same rate? We don't have anywhere near the tax structure Hennepin County has as far as welfare and all the other services. We don't get it and I don't want it. That's why I am out here. I built on Carver Beach Road on Lotus Lake and I hear a lot of people talking about their proper- ties and I feel sorry for them but I got hit horrendously back in 1976 when I built my house because it was new. I think the people are seeing, in the older houses, what's happening is that they are getting caught up with the people who have the newer houses. I have done a survey, I have a realtor book, my house has been for sale for two years and hasn't been sold. There is an awful of properties if you drive around Lotus Lake that have not sold. The reason is that the taxes are driving people away from them. I have had quite a few people come out to my house and like the house and when they they hear that the taxes are over $5,000 that's it. I don't feel that the taxes on my particular house are anywhere near fair compared to what some of the other properties that I have looked at, and I can rattle off 30 or 40 of them, the values on these properties, my house is being listed at $250,000 and I was going to drop it down to $230,000 now. There is houses for sale on the market that range anywhere from $2,000 to $2,500 both in Hennepin County and Carver County and my taxes are over $5,000. I feel that the system is not anywhere near just. I am not saying I am paying to much. I know a lot of people are paying a lot less. The whole structure in Carver County is way out of whack. You are forcing people out of the area. I like it out here but I am not staying here at $5,000 taxes. I think you are going to find that with a lot of people. Councilman Horn: All you have to do is look at the new housing construc- tion going on in Eden Prairie versus housing construction going on here and you can see the difference. I drove through Lotus Lake Estates Sunday and I saw the 13 for sale signs. Ted Coey: They are all around the lake. What I am trying to say is that I just wish someone would sit down and try to compare these things. Al Klingelhutz: Valuations, instead of going up in the past year on the farm land and on houses, and I am in that business and we do get statements from the University of Minnesota quoting the inflated value of farm land or Board of Review Meeting May 23, 1983 -26- the decline in farm land and overall, in Carver County, farm land has declined 16% in 1982 but I don It see that on my assessed valuation. In 1980 farm land went up 16 or 18% and in 1981 I saw it on my assessed I valuation. In 1982 it went up another 12% and my assessed valuation went 30% in 1982 but now we come to the 1983 assessed valuation and the decline in prices is 16% in Carver County and the assessed valuation hasn't gone down. This is kind of hard for me to understand. You say you are at 70%, 60%,90% of assessed valuation of market value. The market value isnlt as high this year as it was last year so the market value should go down this year instead of up or staying the same. Don't you have to agree with that? Craig Zinter: The current trend the last nine months has been a flattening out of the market. A lessening in the number of sales but the ones that we have seen have not been that much different in a relationship to the value that we are carrying as far as assessor's market value versus the sale price. They are running in the neighborhood of 75%. There haven't been that many commissioned sales but the history that is required for assessment purposes establishes the sale pattern in the past few years. Al Klingelhutz: How is that two years ago we had a farm for sale in New Germany for $520,000, today if you want to buy that farm you can buy that farm for $350,000. Now you tell me that valuations havenlt gone down? Getting back to valuations, I heard you mention Sever (Peterson) in here, five years ago he took an option on a farm. He said he bought the farm last fall. Five years ago we sold a farm in San Francisco Township. We resold it again this spring and it brought $20,000 less than we sold it five years ago and you are telling me in those five years that instead of I $1,000 an acre, this farm that he bought in Chanhassen and we sold it to him, should be worth $2,250 an acre now? It just doesnlt make sense to me. As far as house value going up 30% and 50%, we sell quite a few houses, and houses that we sold before are bringing less money today than they did three or four years ago and yet the valuation goes up 30% in one year? It's no wonder people are going broke. They are being taxed to death. Sever mentioned a greenhouse and this was a big greenhouse down in Glen Lake, we just recently sold it. There are three homes on it. One home has a swimming pool and the other two are three bedroom homes and actually if it would have been divided into three lots, without the greenhouses, the homes would have brought more money than the whole package did. As far as greenhouses being permanent construction, I think the roofs on Earl IS greenhouses are plastic which he has to put on every year. All he has got there is a frame and the value of them is $400,000? I don't know. Councilman Horn: Did the property value changes reflect uniformly throughout the county? Craig Zinter: Yes. The only changes were where there were physical inspection and we found that the data was not correct or where there was a physical change on the property. Councilman Horn: And you are still claiming that the farm properties in Chanhassen are valued at 70% of their market value even though they increased. Dick Lyman: There isn't any farm land in Chanhassen valued at 70%. I Councilman Horn: My question is, is it uniform throughout the county? I I I Board of Review May 23, 1983 -27- Craig Zinter: Yes. The values for the 1983 taxes are identical for the green acre value in Chanhassen as they are for the values out in the western part of the county. Al Klingelhutz: Do they have green acres in the western part of Carver County? Craig Zinter: No, they do not have green acres in the western part of the county. Al Klingelhutz: What is the assessed valuation for prime farm land in the western part of Carver County per acre? Craig Zinter: The 1983 taxes payable was $1,800. The same as the green acre val ue here in Chanhassen. r Al Klingelhutz: Would you say that the farm land in the western part of Carver County is better producing farm land than the average farm land in the eastern part of Carver County? Craig Zinter: On the average, yes. There is more Grade A prime ground in the western part of the county. Al Klingelhutz: And yet, I've got 119.64 acres here and with 40 acres of it under water right now, my assessed valuation or market value on it is just about $2,000 an acre and I have to be under green acres so if I sell my farm I got to pay back taxes for three years on it under the higher valuation which is over $3,000 an acre and if that isn't discrimination, I have never seen it and I think the farmers in Chanhassen should start a class action lawsuit against Carver County and I am going to promote it. I threatened it last year but this year I think live got enough support that we are going to go through with it and we are going to prove that itls total discrimination against the farmers in the eastern part of Carver County to have to belong tQ green acres to get the lower assessed valuation. Wallace Otto: Just to confirm, Al asked about the difference between the parts of the county, I have in this folder two parcels of ground, one in Chanhassen and one in Laketown Township and there is a vast difference. Councilman Horn: We would like an explanation in our packet for the next time as to what the differences are on those two parcels. Wallace Otto: They are both the same, unimproved, non-homestead. It would be a good comparison. Mr. Gagnon: I moved here from Hopkins last year and the assessed valuation in Hopkins was exactly the same valuation as what it is here but it is double here. You talk about Hennepin County, it isnlt too bad there. I put an addition on the house this year, about $13,000. I am just kind of curious why they assessed me for $19,000. You say it is worth more than what I actually put into it when I hired all the work done. Craig Zinter: Normally not. I would have to take a look at the field information. My expectation would be how it affects the former valuation of that property, the former assessment. Board of Review May 23, 1983 -28- Henry Arneson: I am sure there is a lot of study and work that goes into these estimated value and I don It know the formula that is used but I am sure you have to take into account what property is sel ling for and I many other factors but looking over my last four years it vascilates so much that it almost sounds like somebody used a dart board. I went from $92,000 to $102,000 in one year and I accepted a $10,000 increase and said thatls pretty good because I put a $6,000 improvement on my house, I made the garage bigger. Thatls probably as close as you can probably evaluate it, although I took out a building permit, I contracted for it and I got receipts showing that I paid $6,000. The next year I didn't do anything and all of a sudden the market value went up by almost $40,000. I should have come to the meeting that year but I was dissuaded. My neighbor said you waste your time you are going to just go down there and get frustrated and nobody is going to pay any attention to you anyway. Then I got this year, now my val uation went down by $15,000 which almost is Exhibit A that somebody made a mistake last year. I didnlt tear anything down. That almost indicates somewhere along the line there was a mistake. Now I am going to pay my taxes in May but I am going to pay them under protest and I would like to see if there is some way I can open up the thing, even though I didn't go to your meeting last June. I think that's a circumstance that should be looked at. Craig Zinter: I suggest you talk to Lana to see where the difference came from. We found in a few instances, when we took the data that was of record, some of the footages were not correct and that as the values were up dated last year that there was more square foot of record on the field card than was present. Henry Arneson: I was only there one time when I saw an assessor there I measuring up my house and they had a tape measure and they were measuring up my house and pacing it off and they had the back width just right and they had the wing measured just right and I said, lIarenlt you interested in what's insidell? IIDon't you care if there is ceramic tile bathrooms or empty space?1I They said they could tell my the outside, thatl s how we tell. If they would have went inside they would have saw that I have got a 20 x 20 space where my old garage was that I left as empty space. All it is, is empty 2 x 4s. I have got siding on it and it looks like house but itls empty space. Craig Zinter: Thatls correct. We prefer to have appointments to go in. Henry Arneson: If there is some way that I can dig up the whole can of worms including last years taxes, I would like to really review both years. I will pay the taxes under protest. Merle Volk - 25-004-0600, 25-015-0700, 25-015-1500: I have got four acres on Highway 41 that was assessed at $26,000 some odd dollars in 1981, the new card I got is $13,200 but the county wants to buy that for their park. That one has gone down. Everything else has gone up and I mean up. The farm $482,000, up from $462,000. The county is putting a road through there and we have got 20 acres of lake, is that what you are charging us for? We have got 22 acres of woods, solid woods, the bull dozer is going to I take it out. I can not pay $1,000 a year, we can It even put our cattle in there. How do you come up with it? Where do you come from, may I ask? Why are they playing games with me on the Highway 41 property? I hope I get my day in court. How come that one is going down and everything else is going up? I I I Board of Review May 23, 1983 -29- Craig Zinter: I don't have the information here to answer that question. Merle Volk: Just like your stinken road going through there, tearing the farm all up and you raised the value. Look at the mess. I don't know where you came from but I guarantee you this, I am not quitting, I am going with Mr. Klingelhutz. It's ridiculous. You got me over $10,000 on that farm. You take the same money, one guy goes and buys a new boat, he is done, the other guy takes the same money and puts it in his house and he pays for it forever. I never seen such a bunch of gangsters. You go and clean up a place, you fix up a place and bingo you pay for it the rest of your life. You haven't heard the last of me, buddy. Craig Zinter: Your comments are the basis of the system and it's the whole property tax basis is advalorem, according to value and when you add value to your property Merle Volk: Who values it? You haven't been around there. You don't know what it is. You sit there. I made some improvements on the place, I know it was a mistake because I am going to pay for them as long as I own it. That is not fair even. The house, square footage size, is the same as it was years back, probably in 1900 when it was built. How do you come up with that kind of a price tag? When I sold it to the county for $2,300 an acre, the best farm land of the whole bunch, how can you come up with that when I got the woods and everything else. I can clear that woods and if that's what you want, the virgin property is to go out of Carver County, let me know. Mayor Hamilton: $2,300 an acre. Merle, you said you sold the right-of-way for the road at What's the assessed market value now on your property? Merle Volk: There is 158 acres and they got me for $482,000. Mayor Hamilton: Are you on green acres? Merle Volk: No. I can't get it. Mayor Hamilton: Craig, I would like to know on your response for Mr. Volk's property, what you are assessing per acre cost for 1983 payable 1984. Councilwoman Watson: I happened to go down there the other day and if there is anything that lousy road, besides a road to our dump, if it could have done anything for the city, it should have dropped Mr. Holasek's and Mr. Volk's taxes. It's nothing but a road to a dump. That's the only reason that road is of no benefit to the City whatsoever. It's torn it up back there, it looks terrible and their valuations go up, it blows my mind. It has devalued that property incredibly. It's going to continue to devalue all the property down there because it's a road to the dump. Merle Volk: With the buildings $3,027.80 per acre. Last years one was $462,000. The taxes are $9,590. That 22 acres of woods behind the cemetary that's all cut up he has got that valued at $50,700. Councilman Geving: Could you give us another reading on that 4 acres on Highway 41? Board of Review May 23, 1983 -30- Merle Volk: $26,000 assessed in 1980, we paid like $800 some odd dollars taxes. Now I just got a new card for the 1984, they dropped the value now to $13,200. Itls been going down since they started the park. I always I have paid taxes on 6.5 acres from the center of Ches-Mar Drive, now they have made it 4.33 because they are going from the easement. They want to vacate the road and then the county gets the road. If they vacated it, half the road would refer to me. They are going back to the 4.33 acres. I paid taxes up until the last two years on 6.5 acres. I believe there is some real shenanigans going on down there. They need a house cleaning. I am with Mr. Klingelhutz. John Alden - 25-230-0190: I have a question. I came to the meeting last year and similar to tonight, there was a lot of arguments because the assessed value was going up, I think we were told at that time, an average of about 23% throughout Carver County last year and that because the assessed values were going up 23%, that if the county and the city and the school districts, etc. did not have increases in their budgetary needs that our mill rate should go down to reflect the increase in assessed value because after all the assessed value is meaningless until you combine it with the mill fate in terms of what your tax bill will be. As a matter of fact the young lady who was here tonight was the one that made that state- ment and at that point half the room got up and left because they were satisfied that the assessed values were not in themselves going to create a higher tax bill. Then we got our tax bill and found that in fact, in my case my taxes had gone up about 28% and my assessed value had gone up 25% so that the mill rate had gone up slightly. If, in fact, the assessed values throughout the county had gone up an average of 23% and the mill rates didn't change, then the amount of money that the county took in must have gone up about 25%. I am asking the question, is that correct and if so, where did that money go? Did we pay 25% more this year to support the county government than we did last year? I Craig Zinter: I don It know what the exact percentages were. The county budget itself was up almost 10%. The school districts were the largest increases, many of them in excess of 25%. I don It know exactly what Minnetonka's was but it was quite a bit larger. I donlt know what the city has done. Don Ashworth: We saw an approximate 8% increase but we also had an 8 - 10% increase in new property. From a city perspective you should not have seen any additional taxes. John Alden: The dollar amount that I paid on my tax bill for the city was up over 20%, for the county it was up over 20% and for the school district it was up ovef 30%. I am talking about the actual dollar amount that my tax bill increased this year from last year. When I called the gal at the city office I was told that there was a law that said your salaries could only go up 6% or something to that affect and she was at a loss as to why they had gone up that much. I am curious. Everyone is saying we want to know what are they doing with all this money that they are bringing in, if in fact our bills are going up 25% why aren't the budgets reflecting this and if they are where is the money going? Mayor Hamilton: Did the market value on your home go up? I John Alden: The market value of my home went up 25% and my tax bill went up 28%. What I paid to the City of Chanhassen in 1983 is going to be 20% more than I paid to the City of Chanhassen last year. I I I Board of Review May 23, 1983 -31- Mayor Hamilton: It should be because your market value has increased. John Alden: We were told here last year that because the market values were going up in the county 23% that the mill rates would go down 23% if the budgets stayed the same but in fact the mill rate for the City of Chanhassen did not change that much. Do you know for the City of Chanhassen approximately what the tax base, in terms of market value, went up in total this last year? Don Ashworth: It went from $181,000,000 to $222,000,000. 20%. Mayor Hamilton: The mill rate went down. The mill rate went on urban from 17.56 mills to 17.02 mills. Rural from 14.13 to 13.84. John Alden: It seems to me the amount of tax dollars the town took in did go up about 20%. Your mill rate is virtually the same and your tax base went up 20 some percent. I am not after the city, I am just saying it hap- pened across the board and somebody gave us a story last year that didn't jibe with what actually happened and I am trying to find out what caused it. Mayor Hamilton: At this meeting last year, Mr. Zinter stated that the mill rate would go down because I know I asked the question, if the property values were doubled in all cases, would the mill rate then be halved and he said, well, approximately it's within that range. Well, the market values went up 25% your mill rate didn't go down 25%. Craig Zinter: Because the budget is the determinate factor on that. Mayor Hamilton: The city cuts their budget and tries to hold the line and then the county backs into it so you tell them you have got $100,000,000 to spend they are going to spend it. John Alden: What you are suggesting is that the county got a windfall and like most government agencies it makes sure it spends the money it gets. When push comes to shove the only way we are going to get our taxes lowered is to cut spending. This gentleman here takes a lot of abuse and the only thing he is doing is getting the money that the county spends and until we cut the spending, we are not going to get lower taxes. I think it would be extremely helpful if you members of our local government helped assist us in finding out where out money is spent at the county level so then we can take action in getting those expenditures reduced through political action. Mayor Hamilton: Clark had mentioned that the state, as you are well aware, is having more than a few problems. We were cut approximately $30,000 out of state aids last year consequently the net gain to us, we had a net minus. We have made all kinds of cuts in the City. Our budget dollar wise was less for 1983 than it was for 1982. We have fewer dollars in our budget in our general fund to spend in 1983 than we did in 1982. John Alden: If you get that message out to the citizens and show them where your budgets have sat the last couple of years and help us to understand where our money is going, into the county, if that is where it's going. I simply know as a citizen of Minnesota that I am paying far more taxes this year, in total, my income taxes are higher, my property taxes are higher, sure there aren't as many people contributing to the tax base Board of Review May 23, 1983 -32- but it IS becoming a very serious problem. I have lived in five different states and this is without question, when you add up all the taxes in Minnesota, it's horrendous. Councilwoman Swenson: I think the first place for us to start is with our schools. I think any time that you are over 50%, 52-54% of your tax dollars go to the schools, that when we need to have is groups like we had tonight go to the school board meetings. I am not familiar with the county budget. It's printed in the Carver County Herald. I think that people like you and all of us here should encourage all of our neighbors to start attending school board meetings and saying, hay, we have had this right up to our eyeballs and somebody has got to start cutting this thing down. Shortly before Christmas time the administratorls salaries were raised over there just incredibly. I Jim Lutzweiler - 25-332-0160: Last year I attended the meeting and my estimated market value had gone up from $195,000 to $245,000 and was told at the time that should the budget remain the same and the mill rate the same that, that really wouldnlt affect my taxes and my tax bill this year was $1,000 higher than it was last year. Assuming that the 10% increase in the county wide budget is correct my taxes at a maximum should have gone up $460. I wish to see those taxes lowered. I donlt mind the $4,600 tax bill but I do mind the $5,600 tax bill and wish to pursue that and get it back down to that reasonable level. I would like to go on record as expressing that this city or this county communicate to someone on the federal level that when we are told that we are going to be given a tax cut that we take into consideration all the data, such as estimated market values and 50% increases and 25% increases so that at least we are dealing on a factual level rather than a distorted level. I Howard Boley - 25-007-0200: I have about 68 acres with about 40 in Chanhassen and the other in Victoria. I was raised to $784 this year. I donlt understand. Another thing I would like to ask Mr. Zinter about, I am practically totally blind. Is there a rebate on the taxes? Craig Zinter: There is a blind classification if it meets the certification of blind status. There is an application that has to be filled out with a request for that classification. Howard Boley: I would like to ask why they publish those county stuff in such fine print that nobody can read it? They might as well leave it out. Why waste the paper. Hank Dimler - 25-160-0680: My taxes went up 115% without any reassessment. Craig Zinter: We would have to take a look at the valuation card for that property to see what the change was. Hank Dimler: Two rooms in the basement were finished off for about $6,000 spent and it went up $15,000. That's for the 1984 taxes. How come it went up 115% for the taxes that are due right now? The other complaint I have is with the City. I have got a big trucking firm in my back yard. Semi's I going in and out and roaring through there all night. I have complained several times but nothing ever gets done really. Don Ashworth: I can It give you an answer tonight as to where it currently stands. I I I Board of Review May 23, 1983 -33- Kathy Schwartz - 25-002-4700: My taxes have gone up three years in a row and this year it went up 100%. Last year it went up 45% and for next year it went up again, a very small amount but when I talked with a man in your office he said that the law requires you to assess 25% of the area a year and I would have assumed my area was done and so I whatever wheel I am on, please take off. It was a big blow to get a $2,500 increase this year and I had to pull my kids out of private schools because of it. I had three months notice to come up $2,500 next week. I don It want to sell my house. That's a little drastic but I don It think it's fair to go 45% one year, 100% the next year, and keep on going. I was here last year and what good does it do to come? Craig Zinter: You are talking taxes and that value has an affect in your share of that tax burden. The Legislature is meeting yet tonight with the omnibus tax bill and depending upon how that shakes out, even if the local council again does not increase the spending for the local services that they are providing, the chances are that there will be enough cuts at the state level that your local property taxes are going to go up next year because they will pass it back through here and then they will have to pass it on. Kathy Schwartz: You are not coming in my neighborhood again, right? Craig Zinter: Properties are required by law to be inspected once every four years. Kathy Schwartz: I will not get another increase? Craig Zinter: No, I am not going to say you will not get another increase. You will not get another visit. If the economy picks up and the market picks up so that residential property values are going up 10% per year, then that would be reflected carte blanche across the residential property. Kathy Schwartz: It's not a question of the valuation. It's just that you can It go after the same people year after year after year and leave other guys alone. I don It really want other people to be stuck with it either but I just don It think it's fair. Mayor Hamilton: It seems like even a more important question might be how you happen to think it's fair to increase somebody 100% in one year. We talked about this earlier about coming out with some kind of a schedule so you can spread that out. You are still going to get to the same place so that you can have your 90% if that1s your goal in life but you can at least give the citizens of the community an opportunity to know what's coming and to prepare for it. Councilman Geving: Kathy, I don't think I would be content as I feel you are on this situation. I think I would pursue it with Lana again and as a councilman I am going to request that we look at that card and have Craig give us the explanation of why this was increased this year as a special note because there has to have been some reason for a change in value of your property. Kathy Schwartz: They said that Christmas Lakers had gotten off scott free, it's about time they get us. We can't fight it. My house is worth it but the point is they hit somebody with it all at once without warning. Board of Review May 23, 1983 -34- John Ziegler: Mr. Zinter said just a moment ago that $1800 is the green acre value in eastern Carver County. I would be curious, what is the green acre value on my property at the western edge of Chanhassen? I Craig Zinter: For the 1982 assessment pay 1983, is what I was referring to with Al IS question was $1800. For the current year the market value for the best ground is $2000. I donlt believe there is any of that classified on your property. John Ziegler: The value I have on the land thatls green acres is over $86,000 for the 18.06 acres. Anything along Minnewashta Parkway, those 4 acres would be all right but anything behind that, you say it stands to be serviced by but it doesnlt get any service. Wallace Otto: She (Kathy Schwartz) asked a little while ago if her taxes will go up or stay the same and he said that depends upon properties and the sales that take place around her. If we are using this as a criteria we have just come through a period and still are in it where property values have actually decreased but this has not not been the case that's been shown here. If we are using that criteria to raise our taxes we also should use the same criteria to lower the valuations. Craig Zinter: The assessment is an historic basis. The values placed whereas of January 2nd predicated on the market as established beginning July 1, 1980 through June of 1982. We have got some period in there that is not the down turn. The analysis that we are using compares the assessed market value on the property that is sold versus the purchase price of that piece of property. That's where the ratio comes from. I Wallace Otto: If what you are saying is true, then definitely next year we should be seeing a decline in these valuations. Dick Lyman: In other words you stay about two years behind the market when it goes down before you change. Wallace Otto: Which is fine. We are two years behind going up and two years behind going down. Mayor Hamilton: Next year, more than likely we should see a down turn in the market values, is that correct? If, from what you are saying and everybody is hearing, is the case, it's a lagging situation. There is absol utely no question that there should be a down turn. Craig Zinter: I have not analized the market, but if what I am hearing here is factual and as we compare the market place in that intervening year to our assessment value and we are finding that we are coming in at 95% or 100% there will be a down turn in the assessor's market values. Al Klingelhutz: I kind of wish this group of people and all the groups of people that come to these Board of Review meetings would go down to the State Capitol and tell some of our spendees down there what we said tonight. I don't think we would have to be quite so hard on Craig. We I have got reason to be hard on Craig but the dollars that we have to have to spend are usually mandated into law somewhere else than our local government. I I I Board of Review May 23, 1983 -35- Wallace Otto: I served about the same time Al did in an equal capacity. What we are seeing here tonight is the best representative government that we can ever get to. This lower level. These are the people that you serve right here. They elect you and you can go to bat for these people. You may not win but you can make your voice heard. The group that sat here affected each one of you to some degree. You are going to have different thoughts when you go home tonight and when you get to the county level if one group from one community shows up you aren't going to make much waves but if ten communities show up you are going to make a lot of waves and the same thing will happen like Al is talking about on the state level. If one community comes in and says we want changes it goes into a record and that's about all you hear. When lots of communities come in there is something that this level can do and that's stick with the people that put them in there. Mayor Hamilton: It's very important what we are doing here and I think results of everybodies input tonight on June 6th you will see some positive results there, but we have to go down to the county and fight the same battles allover again. Councilman Geving moved to continue the Board of Review to June 6, 1983. Motion seconded by Councilwoman Swenson. The following voted in favor: Mayor Hamilton, Councilwomen Swenson and Watson, Councilmen Horn and Geving. No negative votes. Don Ashworth City Manager