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CC Minutes 1999 02 16CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING-WORK SESSION FEBRUARY 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 5:30 p.m. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Engel, Councilman Senn and Councilwoman Jansen STAFF PRESENT: Todd Gerhardt, Anita Benson, Steve Kirchman, and John Kelly, City Attorney MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING REGARDING HIGHWAY 212. Anita Benson: Mayor Mancino, members of the Council. Despite the formal setting, this is not a regular city council meeting. It is a work session to continue one that we had on December 7th where we discussed Trunk Highway 212 and issues that the City Council had had with the Memorandum of Understanding prepared by the Southwest Corridor Coalition. Some of those issues were addressed. We did discuss right-of-way in depth at that prior work session so we will not be discussing that tonight. There is a meeting however on February 24th with staff and MnDOT to discuss ways that we could facilitate the right-of-way acquisition process. For tonight we really want to look at the design issues that were brought up as questions and then also go through the revised Memorandum of Understanding. Before we get started here I'd like all of MnDOT, Southwest Metro and other staff members just to stand up and introduce themselves so everybody knows who's here from the different agencies. Staff members from the different agencies stood up in the audience and introduced themselves. Mayor Mancino: What about Fred and. Anita Benson: Actually Fred's being shy tonight but he's here to represent the coalition. Mayor Mancino: Actually why don't we take a minute and the rest of the people that are here, if you don't mind standing up at saying who you are for the rest of the audience so that we all know who you are and your name. Members of the Southwest Coalition stood up and introduced themselves. Mayor Mancino: Great. And Todd, do you want to introduce yourself. I think then that will be it. Okay. Anita Benson: Okay, to kick things off we'll Evan Greene, a face I think we all know, start off with a design discussion. City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Even Greene: I'm going to have Scott...come forward and just give you a brief-update on where we're at with the property. MnDOT Representative: ... The layout is identified and designed in general all the way out to County Road 147. The status of the various stages. Stage ! is under construction and will be completed in 2000... Stage I! was let last August. Construction began.., complete the alignment on Highway 5. Stage II! takes off of Highway 5 and touches down at County Road 4. That is to be let in April of this year and that is $8.1 million and everything... The 212 Coalition obtained priority project funding which is funding from Congress essentially... The funding right now, the intention is to use it for design and right-of-way on Stage IV. Mostly for right-of-way at the moment. We have to...the escalating right-of-way costs in Chanhassen. A number of large parcels in Chanhassen have been purchased. Chaska is very far along in protecting the right-of- way for the corridor and we have aggressively.., on the corridor itself.., and we have some direction specific on 212. The direction is that they're going to be very aggressive about... The other message that we're hearing is the.., connections which this definitely is a very important... And at the request of the 212 Coalition we were asked to look at a funding mechanism for purchasing the remaining right-of-way. And from preliminary information that I've got back shows that the transportation revolving loan funds looks like a very good option for them... Mayor Mancino: And is there funding for that revolving that loan for purchasing all of the land in Chanhassen? MnDOT Representative: ... promising things to do specifically with 494 and... If you have any additional questions on that number one item... Mayor Mancino: How much is needed as far as right-of-way? Do you anticipate or have you estimated for Chanhassen. MnDOT Representative: ! have a number. We do have that. ! don't have it right at my finger tips but... Mayor Mancino: Any other questions from council members for Scott at this time? Councilman Labatt: You mentioned Stage III... What will be done? What streets? MnDOT Representative: We anticipate... I think there's 5 or 6 versions with that... But the project being let in April is a project that's off the highway.., portion of road behind the Eden Prairie... Councilman Senn: Now what agenda are you working off of?. MnDOT Representative: Oh okay. In your packet that Anita sent out, it's page 2 ! think. There's a memo on the front and then the Trunk Highway 212 work session outline. 2 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: Okay. And so what you've covered so far then is basically l(a)(1)? MnDOT Representative: Yeah. (a)(1) and.., anything new on Powers Boulevard other than .... Councilman Senn: Currently as far as your plans go on acquisition then in terms of right-of-way for the land, well basically Segment IV and Segment V basically. Does Chanhassen then... I thought IV ended at Powers and then V picked up from Powers. MnDOT Representative: Okay... Councilman Senn: Okay, so Stage IV goes from 4 to Powers. MnDOT Representative: 4 to Lyman. Councilman Senn: 4 to Lyman, okay. And then Stage V goes from. MnDOT Representative: Lyman to 41. Councilman Senn: To 41. Correct, okay. So now those two segments in terms of what you are talking about using these loan funds for and putting together funds to acquire all of the right-of- way within that area that's effectively ever been defined as part of the corridor? MnDOT Representative: Yes. The current official map limits... Councilman Senn: Alrighty. MnDOT Representative: Okay. With that I guess we can move into the next portion and I have this map laying on the desk here. Hopefully we can maneuver it so we can. Where I've got it... right here by my hand. This is where Carver County and Chanhassen, or Carver County, Hennepin County line for the east limits of Chanhassen. As we're going west, the first interchange we come to is TH 101. The proposed type of interchange, the design we have here is what we call a... diamond. It's a full access interchange and basically what you've.., existing topography the operation.., stuff that's already out there that we don't have any control. One of the things in this area, and would also affect the Powers Boulevard interchange would be the location and the close proximity of each interchange to one another. We do have a mile. However if you went in to changes to say a straight diamond and added a leg on here.., interchange leg coming from Powers would.., where this entrance is and this exit falls. So the pros on this design, that was one of the criteria. The other one was the Chan Hills was basically platted and they did plat it up against this right-of-way. That basically eliminates the opportunity to put this other leg and this area without taking out some of them homes. A lot of the existing elements there that have happened in Chan Hill. The operation of this interchange is fairly straight forward. They have two intersections on 101, new 101... down here south of Lyman...tied in to the existing 101 on the north side. At this point I'd like to say everything I've colored in yellow on the map is a part of the project...but again the design is, if you're coming westbound, you get off here at 101 and you can make a left or a right. Or in this case.., tie into City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 the Chan Hills development... If you were coming out of this area and you wanted to go west, you'd just... On the other side if you're coming eastbound, you take... 101 is proposed to go over...that's the first bridge over. The second bridge would be Lyman Boulevard. Lyman Boulevard we would basically leave... Councilman Engel: Where is that bridge located again? MnDOT Representative: The bridge is right here... Councilman Engel: I'm trying to figure where that is. MnDOT Representative: ! think this is Lake Susan Drive. Councilman Engel: That's what ! was looking for, but what's the cross street? MnDOT Representative: Yeah, this is Lake Susan Drive... Councilman Engel: But you mean CR 17 and Lyman? MnDOT Representative: County Road 17 comes down here. And this is Lyman and CR 17. So we'll be moving west. Now I'm going to keep this...intersection of CR 17 and Lyman. The proposal for the next interchange west of 101 is... ! think that was one of the questions before that ! didn't have an answer for. The idea is to extend Powers Boulevard down across new 212 and.., and then where it crosses Highway 212, again we have one of these full diamond.., operate the same way. If you were to look at another design... Those are the two interchanges in Chanhassen now. Mayor Mancino: Evan, excuse me. That extension of Powers north and south of the new interchange is again a MnDOT, something that MnDOT will take responsibility for? Evan Greene: For the construction of it. This is a part of this project. We're going to have an interchange here so the construction is a part of the project... Mayor Mancino: So it'd be turned back to the county? Evan Greene: The County. Normally...the rest of Powers Boulevard there would be... Councilman Senn: What's the blue? MnDOT Representative: The blue on this map is the original area of... Now what I've done on the map is ! have drawn on here...there's a proposed wetland... The particular area that I'm pointing to on the map is on the Frank Fox property. And we have modified the map to come like, come like this to... area here you probably need a ponding area... This area here in this corner between Lyman and... That's a proposed wetland site... 9 acre wetland and... 4 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: Part of this configuration then basically you're going to be connecting, or you'll be doing, you'll complete Powers then basically from Lyman to Pioneer? MnDOT Representative: From Lyman down to Pioneer, that's correct. Councilman Senn: Can you back up to 101 a sec? MnDOT Representative: Pardon? Councilman Senn: Can you back up to 101 a sec? Okay then 101 essentially you are, you've providing a connection again down to Lyman. MnDOT Representative: Right. Councilman Senn: And north, you're not providing a connection to anywhere basically? MnDOT Representative: What was that last question? Councilman Senn: North you're not providing a connection to anywhere. ! mean it just basically goes into the existing 101. MnDOT Representative: On the north side we would carry this up to 86th Street. The only reason ! don't have that drawn on here is that given the situation with the turn back and stuff, once we know what's going to happen with 101. What we have drawn on here was a plan that Chanhassen had for the future that went from here up to Highway 5 and was a four lane and divided... If that went through, we would just carry this section right up... probably have to tie into the existing. Councilman Senn: 86th, we're finished on 101 now at 86th, aren't we? We're finished to... Mayor Mancino: That makes that big turn. Councilman Senn: So there is a missing segment in there still. MnDOT Representative: So this construction...go up to 86th Street on the map that's right about here. Mayor Mancino: What Mission Hills is. Councilman Senn: Okay. But would not go up to the complete segment of 101. MnDOT Representative: No, ! would assume that would happen... Councilman Senn: Yeah but ! mean, if the turn back in 2020 is this and 2020 is this and 2005. So what you're saying is, it's a crap shoot is what you're saying is it's a crap shoot. City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 MnDOT Representative: Well, the other option if one comes before the other... Councilman Senn: Well that was one of our questions. MnDOT Representative:... Mayor Mancino: Yeah if we get it that close. Councilman Senn: And now as far as Stage IV goes, okay. Stage IV did not end at 101, but ends at Lyman and could sit there indefinitely for who knows how many years. How is that, how does that fit in? Mayor Mancino: We're not at that point yet are we? Councilman Senn: Well we've already past Lyman. MnDOT Representative: Well tell you what. How about if! just finish the western end of this.., and come back to that question on the staging.., talk about that as far as what might happen if we bring this stage to Lyman. How long before the next stage. That's something also that... talking to in the overall picture.., or do you want it to be answered right now? Councilman Senn: No, no, no. Please, and let him think about it. ! mean one of our questions is there's no guarantees in life and one of our concerns is when you dump it to Lyman, what are we going to do with it and we haven't got anything in place to do it short of maybe if some future plans that may or may not ever occur. Mayor Mancino: Just so you know that on the memo that was handed...that is one of the questions that they will be answering in their presentation. MnDOT Representative: Let's just finish off, I'll try to finish off this west end. Do you want to throw that map up there again Todd. On this end here, and ! know you're concerned about the large area.., where the overall southwest corridor system... ! did bring along the 1970 report. It's an old report that shows that whole system. And we were seriously thinking that TH 41 was needed some day and probably still is. Other, at this point nothing's really sure on that. That that's probably the one... However, what we did in this area was we left enough room in here and...took Pioneer Trail across this new 212... That's not a question ! think ! can give you a good answer on. This alignment does provide a nice alignment for this... Say you didn't have a new TH 41...and ! can't tell you when that might be used or what the date is...but this land in here... We're looking way, way out. And this little green strip I've colored here is the existing Pioneer Trail and that would be... Mayor Mancino: Evan, will there be a, is there a decision on TH 41 and having it, that new route? City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Evan Greene: At the south point? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Evan Greene: Yeah. If you want to get into the... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Mayor Mancino: So it hasn't gone through an environmental impacts? Evan Greene: Right. So you have to go through... Mayor Mancino: But we are as a city, we're...but we're planning for it. Evan Greene: You might say you're planning for it but you might say you're not... Maybe when you look at this... Councilman Senn: Can you point on there where existing is? Evan Greene: Yeah, let's see. ! think ! need a, can you zoom in on this Todd? Over on this side on my paper, the new 41...about 1 mile up to 101 and then about 1.7 miles to... Mayor Mancino: Out to Chaska. To the Chaska city limits. Evan Greene: All ! can say is...taking this land, big chunk of land, there's no doubt about it... There would still be quite a bit of land... Pioneer Trail, it needs to realign like it did here and... Al Klingelhutz: That land that you're reserving for the proposed.., by the Highway Department. What use could be put to that land in the interim? Evan Greene: At this point ! guess ! didn't have a good stock answer to that. Normally when Mayor Mancino: Soccer fields. Evan Greene: ... Mayor Mancino: Evan Greene:... Mayor Mancino: Evan Greene: There would be uses for it... So it's just not existing use. We could use it as park land or something else? We also just came up with an amphitheater and we've got a lot of. City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: Am ! on the right place on the map? We're talking about the 125 acres, correct? Of right-of-way at that intersection. If I'm looking at the right-of-way map correctly. That intersection, the 125 acres. Is that what we're talking about right there? Mayor Mancino: The Pioneer Trail, 212. Councilwoman Jansen: Yeah. Is that the right one? Okay. Evan Greene: Yeah, but it encompasses much more than that... That 125 acres runs all the way up to... It runs all the way up into this area here. It' s, that area down there... 40 acres. Councilwoman Jansen: 40 acres? Okay. Evan Greene: So you're looking at this.., right in this area here... The green coloring by the way is basically what's... Councilman Senn: Now the yellow Evan north/south there where your piece of paper is, kind of to the right side there. Evan Greene: Right here? Councilman Senn: No, over further. Evan Greene: That happens to be a hatch line on the map... Councilman Senn: Oh, so that connects in. Evan Greene: Yeah. ! just, ! didn't take the time to cut that off... Councilman Senn: Okay, and then that connects to the north to. Evan Greene: It provides the intersection of Pioneer Trail and new 17. ! guess the number two.., two interchanges again in Chanhassen and they're both the same types of full diamond... that's the one at 101 there. Very similar. And then the next.., if you went to a straight diamond, the straight diamond would require about the same amount...ifyou look at this one up here. This ramping coming, you might be able to pull it in a little bit. However... if you wanted it and you didn't need it, you could let them go up here to 86th. But that would have to be detached away about where 86th is... SO basically the answer is, the two types of... Mayor Mancino: Do the ramps, since this was designed a while ago, do they take in the new metering and the sane lane and, so that we don't have to retrofit? Evan Greene: Right. On this one at 101 there's...you've got to plan ahead. Mayor Mancino: But those are planned in, okay. City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: Evan, can you back up to Dell Road and tell us what's there or don't you have that with? Evan Greene: ! do not have that. That's also a folded diamond. Councilman Senn: That's a folded diamond just like the other two? Evan Greene: Right. Councilman Senn: Okay, so now walk me through it. If you take Dell Road basically, okay. And then so from Dell Road intersection to the 101 intersection is how far? Evan Greene: 1.7 miles. Councilman Senn: Okay. And from 101 to 17 is? Evan Greene: About a mile. Councilman Senn: Okay, and 17 to new 417 Evan Greene: About 1.3 miles. Basically at new 101... Councilman Senn: Is point what? Evan Greene: 2.9. Councilman Senn: 2.9 from new 41 to proposed. Or to existing, I'm sorry. Evan Greene: To existing. Councilman Senn: Okay. One of the questions that ! didn't see here that we had asked before was do we really need, and some of the miles you know we didn't have exact numbers on at that last meeting but essentially you have three major intersections here within four, well within four miles basically. Evan Greene: Right. That was studied extensively with the, not only MnDOT staff, but the county staff and.., and then when we started looking at all traffic volumes and.., and ! don't know if Roger's going to get into that when he talks about the county... Roger, are you going to cover that a little more in detail or not as far as the number of interchanges and why... ! think that's what you're asking, why we need both of those? Councilman Senn: Well when we just simply raised the issue or the question over, you know effectively amount of right-of-way. Amount of intersections. Proximity of intersections to each City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 other and from our perspective whether it really was or wasn't desirous from a local basis to have you know three major intersections within that 4 mile perimeter. Mayor Mancino: Because limited versus limited access and so much access. Evan Greene: ...actually adopted as part ofEIS... Mayor Mancino: Is there a study that quantifies that? Evan Greene: The EIS is... Councilman Senn: But you're saying it's necessary according to that study then from an optimum basis? Evan Greene: Right. Based on...One of the ideas behind 212 was to try to get some of this through traffic onto 212 rather than... Mayor Mancino: Yeah, my only. Councilman Senn: Some of the contradiction in terms by adding intersections. Evan Greene: Well if they can't get on here, they'll more than likely... ! guess ! could dig that out and... Councilman Senn: ! haven't seen it. Anita Benson: If! could, ! do have that full report and ! did include in your packet for tonight the.., and what affect that has. And Roger Gustafson can talk a little later over the Carver County plan...having 212, not having 212 on the local system. Mayor Mancino: I'll look at that with you because my still question is with the study that was done on intersections was prior to our comprehensive plan and I'm talking about from the city's perspective. Not regional. It was done prior to the city doing a comprehensive plan. Now that we have established what land use will be down in that area, will still have the same impact for the city. That's bottom line so ! can check with Anita on that. Roger Gustafson: This number 5, I don't know if we answered it at the beginning. Whatever's shown on the layout colored in yellow... Most the roads shown are either county... ! don't think there are any local streets. What we were asked to do... Evan Greene: Pioneer Trail. after... Thank you Roger. That's the connection from Bluff Creek Drive that's in... We would build that with this project and that would be turned over to the city Councilman Labatt: Where does the existing Bluff Creek and Pioneer meet? 10 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Evan Greene: It's west, the map there I'll point it out. If you'll take a look at the map up on the screen there. Councilman Labatt: I've got the monitor. Evan Greene: Oh okay. So then straight ahead there. That's existing...Pioneer Trail... ! would compare this more, as somebody pointed out, the new Shakopee by-pass than the one that was built on... undivided type of roadway .... anyway, ! would compare this road more to look like what's been built on the Shakopee by-pass. And then of course the project would include landscaping... There is a design guide that was developed through the process... In there there are sections on landscaping and... Mayor Mancino: Evan, we do have a bridge in our standard now. We have a pedestrian bridge and that's kind of a standard for the kind of bridges. So we may have to look at the bridge design. Evan Greene: ...the ravine on the very west end, or the west end of Chanhassen... What we would probably do there would be work with the city. With the environmental people to provide a crossing there that would... Mayor Mancino: Are we so detailed in the design that we can't shift the roadway north a little? So that it doesn't, you know it goes pretty far into the, is that me or is that you? Because it goes pretty far into the bluff area. Evan Greene: ! think at this point ! would have to say it'd be very difficult to shift the alignment. We did officially map it. ! don't know what impact that might have on, there is a farm...there's a farm right in this area north of where we propose to cross with Pioneer Trail. That's the area right in here that you're talking about existing. Whether we would deal and do that or not... Mayor Mancino: Okay. Can we look at it? Evan Greene: ! think we would be willing to review it with the city staff. Anita Benson: ... Evan Greene: ! assume the people that did the Bluff Creek study.., maybe we can bring Roger up here to run through. Councilman Senn: Evan before you do. Right now basically as far as TH 5 goes to TH 41, that's all funded, correct? Evan Greene: Yes. Councilman Senn: Totally? 11 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Evan Greene: Totally. Councilman Senn: Okay. And that will be constructed basically in 2000-2001. Evan Greene: Right. Mayor Mancino: But not all the right-of-way has been purchased. Evan Greene: No, but we're in the process of buying it now. Councilman Senn: And that's all funded? Evan Greene: That's all funded. Councilman Senn: Okay. So there's no putting, basically that timeline's set. ! mean it's not going to be... or altered or whatever? Evan Greene: Right. Councilman Senn: Okay. Another question we had asked kind of at length about was the issue over 494 and when this construction is completed effectively between Highway 5 and 212, it's going to take it all to 494 and what do we still have? 494. Evan Greene: That's... you're asking when that might be built, right? Or when 494... Councilman Senn: Well essentially what's going to be done when 494 to accommodate effectively these constructions and TH 5 and 212 and secondly.., to Lyman. Evan Greene: ... Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry, how much? 32? Evan Greene: ... That concludes the segment well beyond, that takes you all the way to Norwood. But the bulk of the funding is there... Mayor Mancino: And he was reiterating what you said on Friday was he was reiterating what the Governor said. That once a project gets funded, let's get them done more quickly than what we've been doing. Councilman Senn: If there's some years involved between Stage IV and Stage V though, how are you going to deal with the traffic flow at that point? ! mean if you want a feeder question, are you going to basically block it off so people can't go to Lyman and force the traffic up 101 which you're supposedly going to do you know effectively to the north and south to accommodate the traffic. Lyman is not going to be improved to handle you know that kind of a dump in traffic. So 12 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 I mean what are you thoughts on that and how would that be handled because at least from what we've seen, you know unless history changes itself, you know there will be some separation again in years between those segments. Evan Greene: ... Councilman Senn: Maybe I'm not being clear because I'm not debating that, okay. All I'm. Evan Greene: All we're going to have... Councilman Senn: How are you going to handle the traffic flow at Lyman? More or less are you going to let it all go to Lyman in the first place rather than stop it at 1017 Okay, and if you're going to let it all go to Lyman, how are you going to deal with it at Lyman? Evan Greene: They would get on and off at 101...! know that's what you were asking... Councilman Senn: ! mean part of our frustration is through a lot of meetings now we've asked the same question and. Evan Greene: Yeah, ! just misunderstood...Lyman is going over the new 212.. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Kate Garwood: Kate Garwood with Southwest Metro Transit. We are not at all as far along in the design... Councilman Senn: Could you show us again Kate? It wasn't up there, I'm sorry. Kate Garwood: Right here. This would be at the southeast corner which is probably, this corner here. What it does for us is a couple of things and for transit. What it does is allows us access directly to... That's a nice advantage if you're going to take advantage of transit... But actually I'm here more with.., and ! would suggest that now would be the time to discuss things like whether there should be... the transit hub in Eden Prairie for example... This is too much of a garage site for us but we also... The county has, it has at one time mentioned a new... That is something that is still an opportunity here.., that are usually eligible for certain types of grants... Mayor Mancino: So let me make sure I've got this right. So transit is an independent part of 212. ! mean it's not, the funding, etc. is...for the construction of 212 does not include any transit monies. Is that correct? Evan Greene: The park and ride and... Mayor Mancino: Okay. So if we have three ramps, or two ramps in the city, does that mean that there's been research done, primary and secondary research on. Do you have a hub at each ramp? ! mean what kinds of transit plans along those lines... 13 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Kate Garwood: ... Evan Greene: There's one also at TH 41. Kate Garwood: Yes, in Chanhassen. Evan Greene: In Chaska. Kate Garwood: So there would be one.., higher than normal percentage of people coming through... That happens at Market Boulevard right now.., stop that traffic from going through. You come in... Mayor Mancino: And has there been a formal needs assessment to come up with that or is it? Kate Garwood: ... Southwest Metro there was a park and ride study done.., about to go through that type of thing again with your staff.., but again, it's not to the scope of... It would be something that if we think about it now... Mayor Mancino: Well it was very interesting on Friday listening to the commissioner say that he wanted to convert the transit from people that go downtown, 60% drive their own cars. 40% are in transit and they'd like to convert that 60% using transit and 40% in their cars so I'm just looking ahead and seeing if that will happen out here. It may change things. Kate Garwood: It depends on how... In terms of congestion that you experience... Those are some major contributions that are... ! was talking with Scott before the meeting. Perhaps there's... We're not so much a transit...design. We are a traffic... Councilman Senn: Kate, I don't know if this is you or Evan. Just clarification on some earlier meetings and questions. Effectively this site then is included in the existing right-of-way? Evan Greene: ... Councilman Senn: And it's included though in the existing mapped right-of-way or the acreage numbers and everything that we have? Evan Greene: Yes. ! did include it in the acreage calculations... Councilman Senn: Is that part of the official mapping? Evan Greene: No it wasn't. The official map was.., on the south side of the highway rather than on the north side. And we also looked at something up around 86th Street. There was a study... Kate Garwood: ... 14 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Do we have an overall amount that will be spent in transit? Second question, what is the amount of transit dollars going into the Chanhassen segment and what is the revenue source? Evan Greene: I think we tried to answer that last time .... the only thing I can say is... I don't have a number for you on that but the... I don't have a definite number. I guess we'll have to work with... Kate Garwood: ...but we are able to get grants for building park and rides.., or to build ourselves if we know that the need is there and we do... Mayor Mancino: Any other questions? Councilwoman Jansen: No. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Labatt, any other questions? Councilman Senn: I've got one more for Evan, but I think... Mayor Mancino: Thank you Kate. Councilman Senn: Evan could you let us also know what, you know given the response on the transit up there, how much right-of-way acreage you know on the official map versus the right-of- way acreage that's now being planned? What the difference is there one way or the other overall or I mean is this the only difference, you know no big deal but. Basically what those differences are at this point. For Chanhassen right-of-way. I'm not looking for it all. Evan Greene: Okay. And the transit cost or are you just interested in Chanhassen? Because the biggest cost is the transit hub which is a major investment by everybody. Mayor Mancino: Just in Chanhassen, thank you. Anita Benson: In looking at what time we have left, I'd like to kick over regional system plan right now.., and let Scott talk about the 494... Questions you have there and then we also have Fred... from the Coalition... Scott, do you want to start off with the 494 update? Scott: ... There was information in your handout.., a couple of the stages of 494. It is under... We do have an improvement schedule for Interstate 494... So that's Interstate 35W coming out of Minneapolis. 394. The dotted line represents the new alignment of212...Twin Cities International is at this location here. The project manager working on the improvements for 494, the charge that we have at the moment.., all the way around to the airport. As well as there is funding... Our first project segment was from Highway 100 to 212. That will give...we're going to construct that hopefully starting in 2002... I don't have a whole lot of details on how we're actually going to build that...We are still uncertain at this point whether or not we're going to head up and do, what is currently defined as Phase II from 212 to 394. The greater need is to 15 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 actually go from 100 towards the airport and we're looking at... We currently have about $200 million for that improvement.., study that was done in 1992 that identifies the need for... Mayor Mancino: Any questions? Anita Benson: ... clarification on page 3 of the outline. Outlines the Memorandum of Understanding that Chanhassen has put together. The issues that they had had with the original coalition memorandum. The next page, on page 4 outlines.., how the coalition memorandum addresses... Item number 1 for example, the construction of 212...to County Road 4... desired. If you flip to the next page... So if there's any questions you would have for Fred Corrigan tonight on the memorandum... Mayor Mancino: Fred, would you like to come up and see if we can sort of get this Memorandum of Understanding together tonight and see if there are any questions and kind of finalize it on the Chanhassen part. Fred Corrigan: Madam Chair, my name is Fred Corrigan. I'm representing Bob Lindahl tonight. I guess without going into much more detail and given the time, the changes that were made to the Memorandum of Understanding were in response to a meeting I believe we had here earlier on December 16th and it is our hope that we included most of your concerns either in the recitals or in the agreement. I think one of the things that I know you all understand, but I should reiterate that this whole Memorandum of Understanding was just an attempt to get on paper what each of the communities understood the project was to look like and just the design of the memorandum at this point with long recitals and kind of short agreements reflects the programming process that MnDOT goes through and what they could in fact commit to in terms of dollars that are available and are scheduled and programmed. So we've spent most of our time in the recitals trying to make sure that all of the concerns brought to us from the three cities and the two counties were included in this document. And then we're able to work with MnDOT to actually include the staging for right-of-way purchase and design of the project that the Commissioner did agree to and sign on Friday when he was in Chanhassen. With that I'll take any questions. Mayor Mancino: Any questions from council members or any particular areas that you still have a problem with in the Memorandum of Understanding. Because I'm sure it will come back to us to sign. Councilwoman Jansen: I guess more what I'm looking for is what we would be doing internally as far as community to get the public involved as had been noted in the original letter that we attached to the first memorandum. And whether we can move forward now with some of the public hearings. Just introducing the public now to the mapping as it stands and the planning process to again bring them into the picture as well as, you know the task force issue of studying all the transit issues and how does that affect Chanhassen. You know are we looking at the whole picture versus just focusing on the 212 issue and moving that forward? Evan Greene: ... decided if we want to go with perhaps one larger... 16 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: That's a great suggestion. And how do we advance the ball on that? Evan Greene: ... Mayor Mancino: Okay, that would be great if you could back to us within the next month so we can plan something and get it on the books. Councilwoman Jansen: ...help tie into that. That's great. Evan Greene: ... Councilwoman Jansen: We've grown a little bit since everyone's seen it. Evan Greene: ... Councilwoman Jansen: Okay, great. Thanks. Councilman Senn: What are we looking at timing wise here? I mean is the theory or the thought or the question that the city should.., the letter before public input or wait until we have a chance to go get some public input on it so we know how we're accurately reflecting you know an overall city position. Mayor Mancino: Fred, what is your timing? Fred Corrigan: I think that's a valid concern. And I guess, you know Bob's the lawyer and he likes to write very official looking documents. ! think what we were trying to do is just get a sense where you thought the schedules were so that we could in turn work with the legislature and the department and the congressional delegation on taking advantage of certain things. In a rough sense. ! don't think anybody's going to hold anybody, if you run into something with public input, ! think we needed to get back on the same page so you'd be able to tell state officials and federal officials, where we might be able to go with this project if we get the opportunity. Councilman Senn: But how can we, ! mean the point is, how can we adequately do that unless we go back out and talk to the people who expect us to come and talk to them first? ! mean the only conversations we've ever had with the public on this, you know at least in recent years, has been over a toll proposal. And we haven't really had a good public discussion, at least in Chanhassen. Mayor Mancino: Since '89 ! think. Wasn't it? Councilman Senn: ! was going to say at least 10 years. And we have a number of people that are very concerned about it. One of the concerns is when the memorandum takes the form it does and the recitals do take the forms they take, which are pretty glowing city endorsements of not only history but present, it' s, at least for me it becomes a point of concern as a point of process. 17 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Accomplish that... Yeah, basically get that done before we effectively start going to other governmental agencies or to other whatevers with here's the city position. Fred Corrigan: I guess it was our understanding that this document really deals with the map of where the corridor is. We understood and continue to understand your design discussions that you're having with the department as it moves through this community and ! think the document, at this point really relates to the map and the way the corridor is mapped through the community. Listening to the discussion tonight, ! didn't think ! heard concerns about the boundaries of the mapping. ! did hear concerns about what the project might look like within those boundaries. Councilman Senn: ! think we, or at least ! don't know, ! can only speak for myself. ! still have some concerns over the overall scope of the mapping or boundaries of the mapping because there's still question, at least until we can get this other stuff and review it and also get public input as to whether you need, and maybe it's not a matter of need. Maybe it's more a matter of desire. ! know a lot of highway projects where the necessary intersections weren't necessarily built or necessary lanes weren't necessarily built because of the desire you know of the local area. Recent construction on issues like 62 and 394, etc. where things were done far from the optimum basically but were done to accommodate local concerns and ! think that's just kind of part of this process. We need to now you know spend some time getting through it so we can adequately address from our end or resolve those issues with the state as to which way to go. But ! mean it's preferable we do it now because ! mean ! agree. ! mean if we're going to get going, we ought to get going. But at the same time we ought not to be out spending a hundred million dollars in right-of-way acquisition if we don't need to spend hundred million dollars in right-of-way acquisition. Fred Corrigan: I guess I can only answer that what we're hoping is that you can come to some resolution of all of this that you're comfortable with. And ! don't believe there's any great urgency in reaching that kind of a consensus. ! cannot speak for perhaps legislature and the legislature and how they might do it but ! think the tools that Commissioner... looking's at are also flexible. If you don't use them, then probably there are other projects where they can take advantage of those funds so you know ! wouldn't, I'm not here to say it has to be done by May 15th when the legislature... ! think they're looking at options that would allow you to move ahead once you make a decision and ! think that's the kind of discussion we've had with Representative Molnau and Representative... Councilman Senn: And your timing essentially then, if I'm hearing between the lines is you'd like to at least be able to present something this legislative session? Fred Corrigan: If you're ready. Only if you're ready. I think we're going to keep working with them to make sure that there's tools available for you to use when you have reached a consensus. Councilman Senn: But in an effort to accommodate that, there's no reason on our part that we can't get some public input meetings set up in Chanhassen for the Chanhassen segments and do that over a period of the next you know month or month and a half. It sounds like still we'd have plenty of time left to meet some time.., as far as feedback before the end of the legislature. 18 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Fred Corrigan: Right. Anita Benson: Thank you. Mayor Mancino: ... public input. Making sure that we have a date to get... Councilman Labatt: ...whether that's holding one or two meetings... Obviously it's a huge I'd like to hear from the people that it affects. Who are going to be losing land... Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: Yeah, same thing. One step at a time. Let's get the hearings and the input and go from there. ! don't want to go beyond that right now. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Council member Jansen. Same concern? Councilwoman Jansen: Yes, absolutely. Mayor Mancino: So Anita and Scott, if you can get together and pull together.., some time line for us so that we can still get back to the coalition also this legislative session so that we can present something. Okay? Thank you. This part of the work session is over. We will take a 10 minute break and then come back and continue our city council meeting from last Monday, February 8th. Thank you very, very much for coming. Thank you Kate from Southwest Metro. Thank you MnDOT. Very nice. And Roger and everyone else who came in attendance. We really appreciate it. Thank you. CONTINUATION OF ORGANIZATIONAL ISSUES FROM 2-8-99 CITY COUNCIL MEETING. Mayor Mancino: Actually the housing tax credit, Lakeview Hills... if everybody can hear me. We'll talk about this in two parts. The first part will be about the reorganization issues which will be a continuation of Monday, February 8th council discussion. And the second part of the meeting tonight, or this part of the agenda will be on commissions and we have not taken public input on that yet and we will tonight. And let me go back for a second on commissions. That was talked about, brainstormed a little bit by council on Monday, February 1st at a work session. And the concept was brought up by one of the council members to maybe streamline the approval process for developments in our city. That right now when an applicant or a developer comes in, they go through a lot of times two commissions before they come to the city council. The Planning Commission and the Park and Rec Commission, and the question was put out and was asked is there a way to streamline the process so that an applicant only goes through one commission hearing public hearing before coming to the city council. The other part of that is that there are some community projects, i.e. the library, etc. that really don't come under an existing commission and should we look at maybe setting up another maybe super commission. A 19 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 resource commission and look at that also. So when we left the meeting two council members, Council member Jansen and Council member Engel graciously volunteered to do some research on that. And what they did was they spent the last two weeks interviewing and talking to one, department heads that work with the commissions. And two, commission members and some chairs. So tonight they are going to, in the second half of this agenda item, report back to the council on what they heard. Their findings and then make recommendations. And after they do that we will open it up to public comment and then we'll bring it back to the council for discussion. Going back to the first part of this agenda, the reorganization issues. ! want to give a little bit of background to what happened last Monday night, February 8th for those who weren't here. The council heard from Acting Manager Todd Gerhardt who presented five organizational options to us. And then Council member Jansen presented figures illustrating the total cost that Chanhassen pays for our total law enforcement in the city. And that was from our 1999 budget. She included Carver County police contract which is 32 patrol hours per day and our internal staff of six that are involved in more non-patrol like functions. Animal control, code enforcements, supervisory and support staff. She also ran numbers that showed that by having our Carver County police contract provide us with all community policing functions except crime prevention, that we may save some money and be able to take that money and buy more additional patrol hours. At that point we opened this up to public hearing and we heard comments from everyone that wanted to give them. Sometimes 2 or 3 times. And then it came back to council. We had a discussion and the consensus of council last Monday night, the 8th, was to take some time to process everything that we had heard. To look through the different options and to spend some time with it. We also suggested that those who had come and given comments, that they continue through the week and if they have any other questions, give us a call, to e-mail us, etc. So that ! can tell you that most of the council this past week has been receiving comments via phone calls, e-mails, conversations with friends and neighbors, etc. The other thing that was very important, the point of view that came out last Monday night and we have heard throughout the week was from our public safety staff. And they asked us to make a decision now. To get on with the reorganization. That they would like to know that they have their jobs and they would like to know who they're working for. So it is very important to them that we do make the decision and we get on with things. Before we begin council discussion I'd like to take a few minutes to give a brief background on why we're looking at reorganizing. First I'd like to talk about some.., about organization and budgeting. And then ! would like to address the concerns about the concept of the public safety. Our city has the responsibility to deliver a set of services and amenities to our residents and businesses. Some of these services are performed directly by the city. Some are subcontracted to other entities. Regardless of who actually performs the service, the city needs to function as a complete, integrated organization. How individual departments are organized is a matter of finding the best way to divide up the work. Periodically the city needs to look at it's internal organization to ensure that the work is being done as effectively and efficiently as possible while providing quality services. Your council has been working for some time on improving the way the city plans for the future and how information is assembled and distributed. Last August as a supporting component to our city's strategic plan, we asked for an improvement to our annual budgeting process in order to provide the council and the community with better information from which to make decisions. And also we wanted the new budgeting process to provide a better common language for the council and city staff to share information and expectations. We set down eight objectives for this new budgeting process. They are as number 20 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 one, integrate the budgeting process with the strategic plan. Two. Facilitate through cost measurements for each service the city provides. Three. Eliminating our poor services. Four. Streamline the council's decision making process. Five. Gage the appropriate staffing levels in the context of the whole organizational structure. Six. Give council and staff tools to communicate with stakeholders about service level costs and... Seven. Provide a basis for bench marking against other communities. Eight. Give us an idea where our resources are being spent so we can make informed decisions about where to focus our efforts. The fact is that we are here today to discuss the city's organizational structure is directly tied to the long term work we've been doing to position the city to approach issues holistically. All these issues, budgeting, organizational structure and staffing, are all interrelated. We are committed to providing this city with the best tools to do what needs to be done. That's the over... On the specific topic of the public safety. One point ! would like to stress is that regardless of how we choose to structure our internal organization, your city council is 100% committed to keeping our city safe. We never considered reducing the police patrol hours in our city. Nor eliminating crime prevention or animal control services. In fact we may actually end up increasing our patrol hours through our contract with the Carver County Sheriff' s Department. They have been providing excellent police service to Chanhassen for over 30 years. They know our city and our concerns well. We have the utmost confidence in Bud Olson, our new sheriff. He told us that he is a firm believer in community policing and he'll make sure that his sheriff's department will do whatever it takes to make Chanhassen safe. So let us, as a council continue our discussion of these ongoing organizational issues and get staff clear direction tonight. Councilwoman Jansen... make some comments? And again this could be more discussion. Starting it is not, others can come in and add to it. Councilwoman Jansen: Gosh, I mean I don't know about where to begin. As far as the fact that we've ended up focusing on the whole public safety piece of it takes it away from ! guess the original intention in that we were looking at it more from a budgetary perspective as we were going through and all the different departmental budgets and costs and forecasts and looking at other communities as to how we did things compared to how other organizations did things. It seems like we've ended up going from big picture to suddenly one part of the organization just as the nature of all the circumstances that happened up until this point. We got away from a little bit of the cost effectiveness that we had started out really focused on as to how we do things. In an attempt to come back to that, again just going back over these numbers and back over all of the studies as we're looking at the department, in all fairness, it would seem that we're at a point where we're motivating and trying to take an action going forward before we necessarily get all of the steps in place. I'm wondering if what we're trying to accomplish we can't accomplish, and forgive my analogy. ! think I'm thinking of spring but I'm thinking if we take our boat. If what we're doing is directing ourselves down the course that we're seeing as being the most cost effective. We don't have the time urgency of deciding if we have a public safety director or not right now. Or what it is that position isn't filled. If we go with our organization, that part of our organization, the way it is today. If we apply our resources, i.e. a task force or ! don't know what a good term is, an advisory board to coming up with these types of numbers. How do we do it the most effectively? How do we pull it together and come up with that transitional plan, both internally. Mr. Gerhardt working with his staff. Also then coordinating with the sheriff 21 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 department. If I'm understanding correctly, the sheriff can't necessarily go forward with any of his plans or thoughts until we say what it is we think we want to do. Mayor Mancino: Plus he would have to check with his county board. Councilwoman Jansen: And he doesn't want to do that, if I'm understanding correctly. He doesn't want to do that until we say this is an alternative that we definitely now want to pursue seriously and study. So if we did have say an advisory board, and obviously discussing who's on that advisory board. But if you had an advisory board that's evaluating our needs. Evaluating how we take what we have currently and in the short term make sure that it's operating effectively meaning do we have enough patrol time? Are we covered for animal control? All of those parts so as we're studying it we know that we're safe and secure if you would. ! mean ! know we probably are but if we evaluate, as I'm understanding we might be short of patrol time. So if we get ourselves covered. We do the studies. But we're pointed in the direction that we say we want to go in. That right now would be the most cost effective, according to everything that we've looked at. Get the study in and then go in that direction. Go in the direction that the study is saying is the best. If it's a combination, if the sheriff can come back and say that he can provide the crime prevention. He can do the animal control. If he can do it immediately. Can he do it in six months? Can he do it in a year? If it's a matter of putting a transitional plan together. I'm doing a lot of talking here so anybody who wants to jump in. But ! guess that's where ! ended up after all of the things that ! keep putting my hands on as far as yes, it does look as if this is the correct direction to go in but what is the best organization. We only want to do this once. I'm assuming we're doing this for the long term. And staff is saying that they'd like to know the direction we're going in. And it's not eliminating positions. It's more of a realignment and are there services that would be shifting? Mayor Mancino: So you're talking.., setting up an advisory committee. Two, look at short term and long term needs. The short term would be...things are being fulfilled right now. That we're not.., transitional plan put together. Councilwoman Jansen: And I don't know how long a transitional period that takes. I would assume initially you've got the study that indicates very quickly are we going in the right direction. And then we move in that direction but we've go the numbers. A partnership with the sheriff's office to say what they can and can't provide. And ! don't know how long that takes them to come up with. Mayor Mancino: And tell me, is this an advisory board that looks at the entire public safety department as it's set up now? ...part of it or... Councilwoman Jansen: Well, initial thought would be if we've got the whole thing as it stands right now, fire is saying that if we don't have a director in place, they would just as soon report directly to the city manager as they do in other communities. So however we do that in the transition. If you have it set up transitionally, if it isn't working during the transition, then we obviously need to look at what it's going to end up as long term. So you've got your fire 22 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 separate. ! would gather that our current chief law enforcement officer would be fine in the transition with our crime prevention and animal control. Mayor Mancino: ... Councilwoman Jansen: And again with the understanding that we're studying what of those services stay within the city and what of those services is better provided, or could be provided through the sheriff' s department. Mayor Mancino: ...what you handed out at the last meeting on the 8th about your.., sort of a plan even would work with Carver County. Councilwoman Jansen: Uh huh. Mayor Mancino: Let's just... Councilwoman Jansen: Well because the only other piece then is the building inspection and that seems from the comparison and the data, that all we're doing is changing a report line and ! did meet with Mr. Kirchman and had a conversation with him as to where he would see his direct report line. If we still had a public safety director, and same conversation with Mr. Gerhardt. If there's a public safety director, that's everyone's ideal. And you know no one's failing to communicate that. If we do go to the other alternatives for cost reasons and effectiveness, then reporting under the community development department makes sense. From that perspective as far as compatible activities. Compatible reporting. It's just one more report line to our planning director, but then also throwing that back onto Mr. Gerhardt to work that out with his staff as to, and coming back with how do we work that out transitionally. What are the.., the pluses, the minuses and you had spoken to some of that in the reporting. But ! guess that was the other piece of that organization that is still in there to discuss. Mayor Mancino: . Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: .. Mayor Mancino: Well, one is advisory board... ! think that Council member Jansen talked about fire going directly to the City Manager. Law enforcement officer. As it's set up right now in the interim. The law enforcement officer.., crime prevention, CSO and alternative policing under... And does or doesn't that fold into the Carver County police contract. And then building inspections. Councilman Senn: ! don't think they can hear you back there. Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry. And building inspections going under community development. But ! think that the overall concern and what Council member Jansen was saying was to have an advisory committee evaluating this and how the whole thing would work. Or specifically one area? 23 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: I think it will come down to looking at, and correct me if I'm wrong but public safety services piece of it. You know I'm open to conversation but it seems that the more standard reporting line for building inspections is to community development and that one just seems like a natural. ! gather that the original report line also was accommodating the size of the director's position as to fit within the organization. And now we're at a point where we align it up with community development. But the study being done is really on the policing part of the public safety. Councilman Senn: As far as the public safety, policing issue goes. I wouldn't be in disagreement with that approach at all. I don't know how many of you have contacted the sheriff and talked to him one way or another but I did especially because I wanted to kind of review some of the information with him that he had or that was given to us and also just kind of pose some questions to him. You know his standpoint, or from one of the standpoints I asked him was basically if we were going to do something in terms of transferring services to the county, would he be able to willing to accommodate that and he needs to look at that overall issue too. He doesn't have a lot of the immediate responses, which one wouldn't expect him to have. But at the same time he's certainly very willing to look at it. And in fact painted as some real opportunities for them given the past research that he's done. In fact I think he even referenced a master thesis on this type of... Shared those thoughts. So kind of just tried to nail it down then from a timing standpoint and asked him, from his standpoint how quickly, if we wanted to involve them in the process to define that, and to define a transitioning services and he thought that given where he was at organizationally right now and what was going on in relationship to his organization, that that is something he could participate in and probably look at having some transitional ideas in place by about April 1. He said that if there were any transitional decisions then made by the council, it gets okayed by the county board or whatever, he said the earliest he could possibly implement those would probably be about July 1. Now this is given other changes you know and how would ! say, other changes that he's already committed to within his own departments and follow through on a number of other things. Mayor Mancino: Mark, can I stop you for a minute and just say that you would be in favor of not only getting transitional ideas and concepts from the sheriff' s department but also having an advisory committee that the city forms to work with the sheriff's department. So that they are well aware of our needs, and obviously the advisory committee will report to the city council... So ! think if you did something like that, a council member or two needs to be on that so that there is something from the, so that we're looking at it and doing our due diligence from the city's point of view. What we want to see too. Councilman Senn: Yes. I mean you know from that standpoint I can't speak for, I mean when you say work with the sheriff, I mean I can't tell you what his willingness is to work with a study group or committee or what his time lines are one way or the other or what his time commitments are. I'm just saying if you put together a small but manageable group that could address some of those issues and get some feedback.., process, then I think it, my sense was that that would be something that he could certainly handle or work with, or whatever. But I mean ultimately he's looking to the council to provide that direction... In terms of what we'd like to do. 24 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: ... again, ! think that that question of public safety director or whether we keep CSO here and certainly crime prevention. That's something that this... Councilman Senn: Yeah. ! mean again, it comes down to our desires but my questions to him were more you know, would you consider, ! mean kind of like saying now if there's something that's kind of like barred from discussion. You know ! mean if you just you wouldn't consider animal control, say it now. If you wouldn't consider CSOs, say it now. If you wouldn't consider you know this or that, say it now and the response ! got was that there's really nothing they wouldn't consider or desires. We need to give them the opportunity to look at it and put together a transitioning plan because that's the only way they're going to prove out whether it's doable or not. ! mean there's all kinds of issues with it. You know unionized and a lot of other things. There were a number of issues that they had to work through and in fact in light of his own reorganization of his own department, ! mean there's issues he has to deal with. Deal through and that's kind of why he said that ultimately that would be the kind of timing that he could, you know commit to or work under. For that discussion. Mayor Mancino: ... feeling about? Councilman Senn: Well that separates out kind of the public, or the policing part that ! think a predominant amount of the discussion has focused around. As far as the, you know as far as the rest of the reorganizational issues or elements, ! mean this goes back what now. To ! guess December and budget time and everything else but ! mean at that time started to just look at a number of different options or number of different ways that other cities were doing things. You know effectively doing some due diligence. At that point ! started to stumble over Linda because she was doing a lot of the same. I'd call one person, oh ! just talked to Councilwoman Jansen from your city too so we touched base and kind of split.., and kind of proceeded to get a lot of that information put together. But ! mean a lot of that was just plain old fact finding. A lot of it we just didn't have good information on what was happening. The Andover situation was a real interesting one to look at as it related, when the contract.., because it was so similar to our situation and that sort of thing but. So setting the public safety or policing issues aside for the... other organizational standpoint issues, it's been a process of a lot of chicken scratching but what ! tried to do for tonight rather than just take it to the next step rather than chicken scratching and then just kind of put it into an organizational form. You know basically what Councilman Jansen and ! had kind of found in relationship to what's typical and how other cities do it and what kind of makes sense maybe in relationship to some of the things we're doing and what are the types of things we're trying to achieve under the strategic plan portion as well as the budgeting portion and some possible savings and ways of doing that. And also talking with other cities about how they thought the impact of... the way they were from an organizational standpoint reflected on deficiencies and that sort of thing too. This is kind of the next stage from chicken scratching to a computer generated boxes or whatever. But this is kind of maybe just another alternative to throw up in relationship to the other alternatives. That we've been looking at and ! don't know if there's a way to throw. Can we show it up on the thing? Mayor Mancino: Is there a way to put it on up here? Okay. Do you want to go over it? 25 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: Yeah, ! can just run through it real quick. Basically as far as it's residents and businesses at the top. City Council. The elected officials. The direct relationship between city attorney, EDA director that' s been set up in the appointed commission. The Council is just identified there. Then going down from the organization there on a line basis to the city manager. Tried to kind of, how would ! say it, going through this process tried to reflect general areas of you know kind of like.., responsibilities but on a broader basis. And as far as the city manager goes and this was pretty common through most all cities. Was the administrator that, kind of a lead budget person. The lead communicator. Media person. Council relations. Government relations. Human resources and, or human services and personnel officer kind of all rolled into one. Now those always could vary a little bit because some organizations either didn't have certain staff relying components from there. Breaking out from there, now again this was leaving the policing issue out of it but basically five pretty common denominations as far as line departments goes across city lines. Community development, which generally entails economic development, planning and zoning, water resources, environmental resources, and inspections and permits. Another department was engineering, which was project and permit reviews and sanitation systems and utilities. Another one was the fire department which included emergency management, public safety, education, fire prevention. ! threw the crime prevention in there. Just wanting to at least look at the issue of whether those made any sense to be done simultaneously or not. Operations and maintenance department, which was building equipment, vehicle maintenance, parks, streets, water, sewer. Basically all maintenance and operations function. Parks and recreation, including parks and recreation facilities, recreation programs and senior center. And in cases where there were, where there actually was a senior center. And then two staff functions which primarily go across all department functions and the one that was primary or pretty common through most cities was finance administrative services dealing with accounting, city recorder, elections, MIS, office management, payroll, utilities... Types of services and functions that effectively are either administrative in nature or have commonality in basically servicing across all the departments. Another one that started to appear more prevalent, but seems to be almost kind of in infancy but goes a lot along with some of the discussions we've had as resource management. Getting into volunteer coordination, community resource types of issues. Generally what ! was able to find there was not, that not a whole lot of people were necessarily doing that. But there were a couple and ! mean if we do anything along those lines, ! would be kind of cutting edge. And depending on what is the result on the policing issue that, you know if policing would become effectively you know a department from there, you know of course would fit down below as far as a line department goes as policing would basically become a county function or something and more contract management. Then that contract management would be more in tune with, or more appropriate for that resource management at a staff function. You know essentially if you take kind of a majority of the ways that everybody's doing things and cities kind of our size and where we're at, this is pretty indicative of how they're.., kind of frame around. At least from the information we're able to find so if there's any specific questions on that can run through, you know some of the different cities and their organizations or whatever but this is kind of a consolidation and culmination of most of that. So ! just wanted to throw it on the table as another option. Mayor Mancino: Okay, can we take some time and ask you some questions. 26 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: Fire away. What I can't answer, Linda can probably answer. Councilwoman Jansen: Well and we haven't really run through this in a while, since we did get kind of side tracked over to the whole public safety but ! think, and correct me if I'm wrong. The main function that this was showing we might want to again apply some research to and maybe have Mr. Gerhardt take a look at is what would the, what would the savings be within the maintenance piece. We've got like equipment. Like tasks. Divided into the two departments as far as the whole parks and the public works and what we were hitting, and correct me if I'm wrong Councilman Senn but ! think that was the main function that we were finding in most cases did fall under public works in that that is you know like function. Out of that facility and it would just maybe bear some looking at as far as the whole cost savings piece as to what could be gained by shifting that function. Councilman Senn: There ! actually went so far as to ask Charles kind of the direct question. If you know those types of functions would be consolidated, you know do you think there were savings to be had and efficiencies to be had based with two separate functions and his response was yes. ! mean but again now there's been no at length study or look into that one way or the other. It was just kind of a what do you think off the top of your head thing so that's why ! included that as an issue to look at. The other really only you know kind of change relates to community development and almost across the board that's pretty traditional as far as many development functions and what's included in the community development department which for us at this point it would be kind of a shift in economic development and a shift in inspections and permits. Mayor Mancino: So, I've got a few questions and then other council members. So your operations and maintenance is same as public works? Is what we have right now in public works. The addition to that responsibility would be the maintaining of parks. Taking it out of park and rec and putting it into operations and maintenance. Councilman Senn: Yeah, ! mean what was it about a year or so ago. Mayor Mancino: There's already some cross over going on. Councilman Senn: A year or so ago we kind of split engineering out and we split engineering and operations, ! think what we were calling them at the time. You know ever since then ! guess I've kind of just in my mind kind of dropped the designation of public works because you know kind of the whole reason for that was to separate those functions and to say that this was more operations and this was more engineering. And so ! mean as far as the operations. Mayor Mancino: ! never did that. Councilman Senn: Well I'm just saying I did. That's my mind I'm talking about, not yours. Mayor Mancino: Yes. 27 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: And stuff but to answer your question, I mean yes. When I refer to operations maintenance, that's the same thing as our current public works with the one exception being the consolidation of other maintenance functions that now exist elsewhere in the city. Which are not just in by the way parks. ! mean there's a maintenance function under relating to City Hall that reflects ! think under the assistant city manager and stuff like that. That would all be consolidated under one operations and maintenance category. Mayor Mancino: Okay, I'm trying to pick out some other things. Finance and administrative services. When you took finance and put it up with administrative services and again you did that, reports directly to the city manager. There isn't much change there. Only that instead of, because it serves all the departments is why you have it up. Councilman Senn: That traditionally more of the staff function and a line function. In some of the very large cities that kind of shifted to line functions but ! mean those are cities that are considerably larger. It was generally looked at more by cities as a staff function that was there not to service in a line relationship to the outside so to speak but more to a staff relationship on the inside. Mayor Mancino: And then.., see this kind of differently than what you have talked about and that is to set up some sort of a committee to kind of look at the policing part. Councilman Senn: No, this doesn't differ from that. Mayor Mancino: ! don't see that here. ! mean where is that? Is that under resource management? Councilwoman Jansen: Well and again. Councilman Senn: ... appointed commission box up there and that's whatever we want to appoint for commissions or study groups or whatever. I mean that's as it always has been. I didn't even get it. At first I started to get into kind of listing what we have here and then we got into all the discussions over commissions and stuff and to separate the issues, organizational here versus commissions just kind of really left that all out over what should be a commission and what should be a task force. I figured that was really a separate discussion. Councilwoman Jansen: And again all of that goes back to when we were working on the budget so ! mean we're going back to when we were looking at all the different cost factors and comparing our own budgets to other cities budgets and just trying to look for maybe some of the areas that we ourselves might be able to look at and analyze and go to staff and say, you know can we maybe look at these areas and do the analysis. See if that is something we can transition to. What are the cost savings? It was from that whole perspective so as to where we are right now, some things have obviously changed but yeah. ! would still, ! guess my own opinion would be that it again would need to, these are concepts that we could then have looked at and what 28 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 does it take to transition through those. If they are most cost effective or would be more cost effective. Mayor Mancino: ... Councilman Engel: No questions. Just comments on my own ideas. I'm going to wait till we're done though. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions... ? Councilman Labatt: No, not right now. Mayor Mancino: Then why don't you. Councilman Engel: I'm trying to net this out. From all the feedback I've gotten and e-mails, phone calls, public comment. Kind of two overriding themes that seem to bubble outward. One, make it understandable so people could see what amount of money. Like a simple budget sheet and looked at the city staff. Wanted to understand what amount of money went into what function. And then also what came out after a while in some more digging was that a lot of people were under a misconception what public safety did. They thought it was strictly policing and evidently that' s, they just didn't know that it had a lot more into it than that. So something that came out, specifically in my neighborhood was they want to see one department focus on law enforcement. Some of the comments ! got specifically were, ! don't care whether septic systems are up to code or not. ! don't want law enforcement dealing with that because ! think it detracts from their focus so, that's a couple things that came out. ! didn't try to lose my focus in this from the big picture perspective. ! went to areas I'm familiar with professionally. Every business I've dealt with has always, and Mark kind of got to this in a round about fashion. Well or directly. ! thought ! saw it more clearly than he did but he's right there really with the same model almost as ! came to but ! had a couple extra boxes and lines on mine. The MIS and the GIS specialist under the Todd's original diagram generally is found under every finance department that ! deal with. That the computer expertise tends to hover in that group. So ! was looking at a way to flatten that chart and get it a little easier to work with and understand and to budget. And move more of those administrative functions over to the box on the left that Mark has done now which is not up there now, under finance and administrative but ! didn't know whether that would be headed by our current finance director or if it would be more of an assistant city manager's job, and that's up to them to decide.., for us to talk about. But then ! also saw it as more of a line function. It moves down and to the left from Mark's design, in my mind and is another line group which is a lot of your administrative staff. And then all the other departments went a little bit farther with the operation and maintenance than ! had thought about but ! remember hearing that comment in the past. It makes sense to me. The one box ! would like to see added at this time to that diagram is a specific law enforcement component and fire can be out on it's own. ! got that a lot as well but that could be directly to the city manager. ! think that makes a lot of sense. But ! would like to see a law enforcement focused box. Whether that is a Carver County entity or a Chanhassen city entity. It makes no difference to me right now but I'm not prepared to seed that without seeing and talking with Bud in a work session format. What are all the options? What 29 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 are all the things you'll do. What will it cost and then do some comparisons to what we have now and what we think we can get that for with our own component. So maybe you didn't take the whole elephant in one bite but it's maybe a baby step with regards to law enforcement I'd keep that box out. As a line function, I'd report it into the police contract. Administer, if that's assistant city manager or if it's the city manager. We can decide that at a later date or Todd can come back with some options. But I'd like to keep that component and then if at some point in the future we do get a very attractive offer from the county that gives us everything we want at a price we want, and it's advantageous to us from a safety perspective and an economic perspective, then I'm perfectly fine to go there. ! think right now we don't have anything on paper. We have no concrete options to sign a contract with so I'd like to keep that box in the plan for now and focus the building, ! think the building inspections. ! got that over and over again. It makes total sense to be in community development and fire can report to the city manager. ! would like to keep law enforcement as a line function for now and see where our options are going forward from the county. And commissions, I'm glad you kind of pulled that off because that was kind of clouding ! think the thinking. We were trying to attack to many ! think thought processes at one time. Deal with that later. Mayor Mancino: And do you see crime prevention under fire department or in your law enforcement? Councilman Engel: Probably in the law enforcement box is my thinking. I made a note on that and circled that and drug it over to the right, second box. I think it probably belongs over there. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Labatt. Councilman Labatt: No, ! just want to see to make sure... Mayor Mancino: Be sure to ask questions. Councilman Labatt: ... advisory board to look at things under public safety.., report back to the council. During this time, ! mean is this advisory board going to replace a commission? Mayor Mancino: What's your thinking on that for an advisory committee? ! would think it's something that's set up for a couple months or... Councilwoman Jansen: On the studies as far as being able to do these sorts of surveys. It's really suggested within the old policing studies that there be two council people. It also speaks of someone from the sheriff's department. ! don't know if they would have someone that they could provide or just someone who comes in with the advice of how to do that. And then obviously looking within the report it's suggesting one volunteer citizen. And just as a guideline, and I'm just saying that that was just as a guideline. Councilman Labatt: ... 30 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: Yes. But to keep the group small enough to be focused on, ! mean this is to do the study. This is to come up with the statistics and the information on where we are cost wise compared to where we could be with other alternatives being considered. Councilman Labatt: So the commission would be disbanded then? That's what I'm hearing, right? ! mean my idea was, the commission would still be functioning. Everything would function as is. Hire a new city manager. We're on the eve of the new city manager interviews tomorrow... Well maybe we should wait until we hire him. Until we have any discussions. Maybe he has ideas that he might have. Well. If we're going to be looking at the long term issues and my point is let's wait until the new city manager is in place... ! didn't get any e-mails or phone calls from anybody in the last week that told us that the ship needs fixing. That we needed to reorganize the whole department. The whole city for that matter. What we're looking at doing here. I'm in favor of, ! like Linda's idea with forming this advisory group. Going out there and before we make any decision on moving any departments or anybody, we need to gather the data and we need to make this decision based on that data. ! talked with Bud Olson and ! asked last Monday night that he be here. ! asked him while ! was talking on the phone a couple times this week if he's coming and he couldn't. So he needs to make a presentation to his county board...give us concrete numbers. So we've got a lot of data to collect. We're putting the cart before the horse. You want to form an advisory group. I'd be in favor of that. I'd like to be a member of that group, I'll go on the record right now of that. ! think that with my past commission experience and 15 years in law enforcement that... Form the board. Get the data. Get all the empirical data out there and... All the data and the numbers. If it makes budgetary sense. If it cuts expenses, then we look at that as a council... If it's six and halfa dozen of the other, then maybe we stay with our identity. ! also, with the new options out here that Councilman Senn presented, I'd like to have a public hearing on this tonight. Mayor Mancino: A couple comments that ! have and still questions and that is. ! think the idea of an advisory committee is a good one and especially going over and reviewing the public safety policing needs as far as... and we really have to work with a member from the sheriff' s department. ! think that.., as far as whether we do keep CSO and alternative policing within the city. Whether it's taken over by the Carver County contract. I'd also like to see us look at being able to get, if we have leftover dollars to increase patrol time. Patrol hours per day. So I'd really like to see that studied. And I'd like to hear more about the commitment to community policing from our new sheriff and understand the particulars. ! think it would be wise to have a couple members of the council on it and city manager and a volunteer citizen. ! mean ! think it's something that we need to get on right away and be looking at and decide. ! think it's one of the parts that intrigues me is the operations and maintenance and including the parks maintenance under that is what ! call public works. Only because I've certainly gotten the impression from our public works director that he has more than he can handle with his work load right now and that just might fit in very well.., public works right now and being able to cross over. Use equipment. The same people. Snowplowing obviously for, or the summer help. And that's something certainly Mr. Gerhardt you could meet with Mr. Folch and Mr. Hoffman and kind of talk about that. How that would play out. How that would work. Todd Gerhardt: Well they do share right now. ! mean there's sharing of equipment and. 31 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Would it make it easier being under one department? Todd Gerhardt: Well... park maintenance under the Park and Rec Director. The basis was new park development. The Park and Rec Director is the one that goes back through the Park and Rec Commission and City Council to get the park developments approved. And then he wants to make sure that he can follow through that it' s built to... Todd' s hands on. He does an inventory of each park... It just gives him complete control over making sure that the parks are to the standards that the city wants. ! was never aware of you know not sharing of equipment or... utilities used as park maintenance is more, it's a sharing... Giving Todd more control over park development as we're building... Charles overseeing that... Mayor Mancino: Well with obviously input and reporting to Todd. I mean getting that input together versus Todd having to go out to the public works building and having meetings, because he does that right now with staff. So some way of communicating from park and rec, those needs to management there could still happen. Todd Gerhardt: Sure. Councilman Engel: Can ! clarify something there for a second Mayor? Todd essentially said that a lot of what's happening in the operations and maintenance quasi department that Mark's diagrammed throws up and introduces is in fact actually happening to a degree. That there's a sharing of equipment already and that probably this box just more clearly identifies it as a standard operating procedure. That's what it sounded like. That they're already doing some of that sharing with equipment. Todd Gerhardt: Well yeah. Dale has a snowplow route. Park maintenance guys are on the call list for snowplowing. Mayor Mancino: So again it's just more formalizing this. Putting it under public works or operations and maintenance. Councilman Engel: They're already sharing. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, they're already sharing. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah they're sharing. I'm just trying to understand why it needs to go under public works. Why Charles needs to do the things that Todd's doing. Basically is what I'm not getting to understand. Mayor Mancino: Just consolidating it all in one department. Todd Gerhardt: And the benefit of that is? Councilman Engel: ! think going forward. 32 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: Consolidation of equipment. Consolidation of people and personnel. The different seasonal needs and responsibilities. Councilwoman Jansen: The maintenance personnel, are they not out at the public works facility? Todd Gerhardt: Yes. We have park maintenance and we have street maintenance. Councilwoman Jansen: So if they're all together under one supervisor, does that not lead itself to maybe better coordination of use of the equipment or use of time and where everyone's going and if they're already out there, because ! guess I'm gathering that if Mr. Hoffman is directing or, right now he's supervising the maintenance people for the parks, correct? Todd Gerhardt: No, you have first line supervisors. You've got street superintendent and you have a park superintendent, maintenance superintendent that coordinate the maintenance activities for the day. They are the on site supervisors. They coordinate the maintenance of which park they're going to build. They're coordinating what maintenance is needed to be done on which vehicle. Councilwoman Jansen: And they report to? Todd Gerhardt: They report to, the park maintenance reports to Todd Hoffman. Street maintenance, utility and fleet maintenance goes to Charles Folch. But you know it's more or less, Charles' role in that is coordinating budget and personnel matters that may occur. Charles will provide input on needing new wells, water reservoir. You know working on streamlining cost saving measures of the maintenance. But he does not coordinate that you know, go put in a culvert over off of Galpin. That is Mike Wegler's job. And so, or having Dale go underneath Charles. You know Todd is still going to have to be involved to make sure that the parks are being built to the standards that the city council and park commission have directed them to be built as. So it's, you know Todd's still going to have to stay involved with that element. Mayor Mancino: You know the equipment list though that we got did not, does not include parks and rec. ! mean that seems to be a separate budgeted item. There was a couple mowing machines and a light equipment operating machine that did not come under our equipment funding but came under park and rec. Again wouldn't, shouldn't those capital investments that we make, equipment come under our regular equipment funding? Todd Gerhardt: Yes they should. Mayor Mancino: And again those are things that, the oversight is done at public works it seems like. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah Harold. 33 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Because again ! think that this year in particular there was quite a request for an increase in park and rec and part of it was equipment that maybe should have been consolidated with the equipment request. Todd Gerhardt: You're absolutely right. It should be part of the capital replacement fund and I'm sure Todd felt that through bringing it out of the park maintenance fund was his approach of trying to get a vehicle as it related back to the maintenance of the parks. But Harold is the one that schedules the maintenance of all the park and rec equipment too. Dale doesn't do that. Harold is our fleet manager. He schedules when the mowers need the oil changed. When blades need to be changed. Belts. Coordinates all that. He'll talk to Dale. Dale will tell him you know, this mower is malfunctioning and needs to be looked at and Harold will then have his men take a look at it. But there is sharing of resources. Dump trucks. When Todd's building a park, he has access to all of Mike Wegler's trucks when they're not being used to haul dirt and sand, pea rock for playground equipment. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you. So it doesn't seem to be consolidated in the budget but in other ways they do work together. Can you go back Councilman Senn and talk a little bit about this resource management box off of city manager to the right. I'm not quite... Councilman Senn: That's, well basically the primary purpose of that is more related to our strategic plan probably than anything else. Because in our strategic plan we talk about the need to address some things that we aren't addressing now as it relates to community resources. In a number of different areas. We're already, you know and a lot of those areas don't fall in one department or another or whatever. We keep talking about a way to better identify and mobilize those community resources and volunteers and volunteerism and all kinds of things like that. Yet we never have really taken the jump or step to basically throw something at it implementation wise. Like ! said before that's kind of cutting edge. ! mean a couple people are doing similar types of things. Calling them similar types of things. But they're just kind of getting started into it too so ! mean it's not an area that there's a lot of, you know a lot of tradition in it one way or the other but at the same time this particular staff element or budget was more from the standpoint of trying to examine needs and those elements of the strategic plan and the community resources. Mayor Mancino: Sure. And do you see the community resources as a commission? As a person who's role and responsibility is reviewing and looking at community resources? Councilman Senn: Person. Okay. Now again, ! took the commission issues out of this. Mayor Mancino: Okay. And again a volunteer coordinator could be this person in charge of resource management. Councilman Senn: Correct. You know another area we've talked a lot about that we need to get more work in and cross utilization across department lines is just contract management in general. ! mean it shouldn't be just talk. You know not just simply a discussion of policing and whether that does or doesn't end up in a contract like it is now or in what form. We have other contracts 34 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 administration that we've talked about numerous times, not only during budget times but as contract issues and bids and all that sort of thing come up and you know this could be an area for someone to basically get some specific, bring some specific expertise to that. Mayor Mancino: Well ! do like the idea of resource management having volunteer coordinator and community resources under that. ! think that would be a great area to get. You know we don't spend the resources on. But ! also agree with Councilman Engel as far as making a line function, policing or law enforcement and having an advisory committee kind of look at that area. Setting that up. Councilman Senn: ! have no disagree with that. ! just simply left it off here because it was a whole separate issue. Mayor Mancino: And also putting crime prevention under law enforcement and that whole policing... Councilman Senn: Again, ! have no problem with that. ! just think when we look at those through educational functions, and maybe even other educational functions, that we at least take a look at whether there's some advantages to looking at some consolidation there. Mayor Mancino: And my only other comment would be under operations and maintenance or public works or, to do a little bit more research on how that does and doesn't work with parks in there. ! mean if it really makes it more efficient to put the maintenance and parks under that one department, and ! think we'd have to quantify that. More discussion? More comments from council members. Councilman Labatt: ! just want to comment once on the fire department... Mayor Mancino: Report directly to the city manager. Councilman Labatt: Well under, it worked good the way it was to tell you the truth. ! was a part of it for 3 years... But having it as a stand alone, there's a volunteer chief there and then if you take out.., crime prevention, then you have fire prevention alone... You need a direct report. ! don't think they can report to a volunteer fire chief. ! don't know but that needs some looking into... Councilman Engel: Maybe I'm wrong. It was my interpretation that the fire marshal reported directly to the city manager and the department was responsible to him, however large or small it was. Did I misunderstand that? Councilman Senn: That's what I found traditionally in the other cities. In fact I could only find a couple of others. Councilman Labatt: What cities? 35 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Senn: Well, do you have that? Councilman Labatt: You talk cities here all night. What cities are you talking about? Councilwoman Jansen: From that original chart that, from the original work session. Councilman Senn: Do you have that still? From before that was given to you at the previous meeting? Councilman Labatt: I'll look at the Mayor's here. Mayor Mancino: You have under separate fire, separate departments. Fire is in Crystal, New Brighton and New Hope isn't it that have the West Metro. All these. Councilman Senn: Right. And where it's West Metro, that relationship's still you know goes to the city manager. Mayor Mancino: So it' s... looks like it could function either way. Councilman Labatt: So are we going off of personal conversations with other cities fire chiefs or were you going off of what's on the sheet? Councilman Senn: This information was obtained from talking to the city managers at the other cities. Councilman Labatt: Every city manager was contacted. Councilman Senn: Every city manager and/or somebody else we were referred to to talk to about it were contacted. And the ones, the larger cities, as we pointed out before when this was being developed, ! mean there were some public safety directors but those were only in cities that were quite a bit larger than we were. Councilman Labatt: Linda when you said on this chart, figures from the League of Minnesota Cities. That was for the population? Councilwoman Jansen: Correct. Councilman Labatt: And then you also done by contacting the individual cities? Councilman Senn: Yeah, what we tried to do was to find a population sample network of other cities with similar population range to us and then we threw in some others one you know effectively up to Hopkins simply because they were in an approximate location to us versus population to us. Councilman Labatt: So are we looking at a population of 19,100... 36 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: That's why we went ahead and we pulled some of the bigger cities. So that we could see at least a comparison to the numbers where we're going and we're going to be at what, 19,500 ! guess and then 20. Councilman Engel: Max of 34. Councilwoman Jansen: Max of 34. Mayor Mancino: ... ! don't think it's going to take us that long. Councilman Labatt: That and look at the future. Mayor Mancino: ! just made the comment that ! was sure that the city would look at again organizational structure between now and 2020. That as the needs change in the community and as it grows too, we'll take a healthy look at that again. Do you Steve see a, ! mean a lot of these communities, especially you know Chaska near us. Shakopee. Have the fire department reporting, the fire marshal reporting directly to the city manager. Did you have a chance, ! thought you said something about talking to, did you interviewed or talked to our staff and? Councilwoman Jansen: I did speak with Mr. Littfin in regards to if we went this direction as far as having the fire reporting directly to the city manager and how that works in other cities as a comparison sake. He was saying that if he had a horizontal connection. ! mean he needs to speak with the building official but he's basically saying you know that's a function of going over and speaking to the building official. He can definitely get what information he needs as a fire marshal but that his direct report, if that were to the city manager, it's the city manager then that can coordinate him with, he needs a contact with the other areas. But that a direct report to the city manager was where he'd see himself fitting along with the fire, himself as the fire marshal and then the fire inspector as well, the two of them together. Along with fire chief going directly to city manager. So that all the fire functions were together. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any other? Councilman Engel: Nope. Not now. Councilwoman Jansen: Well again, and if that's one of those things that if as we're studying it and it's, you know we're looking at it and there's something else that makes sense, ! guess that's where ! keep coming back to you know definitely just pointing the boat in the direction we think we're going to go in. Because right now we can by nature of the situation that we're in. We're just simply not filling a position until we get the study complete. And back to the whole big picture as to where this all started with the whole budgeting process. ! know ! had thrown out the question in one of our work sessions. Have we ever considered the concept of incentifying the staff?. Our staff and employees to come up with some of these cost saving measures and maybe that's something that now we come back to again as a concept. It works within private industry. ! don't know what has been done within some of the cities. ! spoke with Mr. Labatt 37 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 and he mentioned that at a county level he was aware of an incentive program within Hennepin County I think you said Steve. So if there is something where we can say you know these are a few ideas to take a look at, but go back to the experts within staff and working with the city manager and we are charged with the third highest taxes within the metropolitan area and the one way that we can go about trying to bring those down is we do need to look at our cost effectiveness and though the community didn't say during the campaign you know you need to change what's working. It was more the comment, we don't know how you do this but could you reduce our taxes. You know is there something that you can do in order to get us down from that number three position and we do that by looking at the budget. Looking at the cost effectiveness and I know staff hears it too. I mean we're all rubbing elbows with the same community members as far as what we're looking at. We're not trying to destroy a working machine. We're simply trying to fine tune it and if by fine tuning it we can come up with either lower taxes or a community library or some of these other things that we definitely.., we all need to challenge ourselves as to what we can look at. And again not take it personally but maybe step back and just take a look at it as a total. And that's why I keep coming back to okay, we've got the one part that right now we're in a position where we can let it coast the way it is as long as we make sure that we're covered. Patrol wise and study it. And what is the most cost effective way of doing it and we're not just singling out that one area. We're challenging all of our organization to take a look and see what we might be able to do better. I guess I keep wanting to come back to big picture and I realize we've got to do something now to say what direction we're going in and once we've said that and yes, I hear the concern that why aren't we waiting for the new city manager. Well if we simply just pointed ourselves in a direction and we're applying ourselves to figuring out the cost effectiveness, then yes that person, whoever it is, is right on board with the studying process. It takes time to come up with the right methodology and you know maybe let's do that. Mayor Mancino: Everyone's given comments. Let's come to some consensus and direction. I certainly have heard from everyone that an advisory committee would be important to have to review some of these changes and most specifically as it relates to law enforcement. Am I seeing consensus from everyone's kind of okay on the advisory committee. Councilman Engel: ... study group. Councilman Labatt: Incorporate members of the Public Safety Commission. Mayor Mancino: Discussion on that. Councilman Engel: I would like to see it incorporate, personally Councilman Labatt and Jansen because they've got a lot of background already. That's the only two I'd like to see for sure on it. If you want the public safety commission, that's fine but I think we should establish this as a wide open field and let everybody come aboard. I mean certainly public safety, yeah. Anybody who wants to apply. Or if we want to take a look and appoint people out of the commissions we've got. Councilman Labatt: Linda and I have discussed this too and well we hadn't talked about... 38 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: My only concern is making it too big that, ! think it's important to get together and work very efficiently and effectively.., five members so. Because it has a lot to look at. It has a lot to do. ! mean it's not going to be an easy committee. Councilman Labatt: ... seven would be better. Councilman Engel: See how many applicants we get. Sorry for volunteering you, are you okay with being on that? Are you okay with being on it? You said you were. Councilman Labatt: I said I was, yeah. Councilman Senn: That'd be fine if those two council people. But I'd like to see you keep it to five. ! think the city manager should also be on it and somebody from the sheriff' s department. Have kind of one unbiased, uninvolved citizen who. Councilman Labatt: But you're eliminating the public safety commission by doing that though. By saying two council, city manager and sheriff representative, that leaves one person left. Not getting the input from the people who know. Councilman Senn: Weren't you public safety commission too? Councilman Labatt: They can bring a different perspective too Mark. Mayor Mancino: But we also have those people who have been on the public safety commission. This group can also go to those members and ask them.., about specific things. Councilman Labatt: Well let's make them a part so they don't feel left out. If you want to make it seven and then so you have... Two council members, two public safety commissioners, city manager, a sheriff representative, and citizen. Councilwoman Jansen: I'd be good with that. Mayor Mancino: And what's that again? Councilwoman Jansen: Two city council. City Manager. Two public safety commission. Sheriff Department and a volunteer citizen. Not that the public safety commission aren't volunteer citizens but. Councilman Engel: How many was that? Councilwoman Jansen: That's seven. Mayor Mancino: Seven. 39 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Engel: Okay. Mayor Mancino: And that is something we can put an ad in the paper for right away? Get that up and going. Todd Gerhardt: Do you want to see the ad before it goes out? Mayor Mancino: Oh, ! think that would probably be a good idea. In the next couple of days. Let' s talk a little bit about what the advisory committee.., spend some more time on this. What is their charge? What is their purpose? What are they looking at? And are there other directions, consensus of direction that you would like to see us start going in regardless? ! mean one of the things that ! think is very interesting is the resource management. What is that? Volunteer coordinator, community resources. And that might be something, as long as we have two council members on this advisory committee, we have two other council members kind of look at this resource management and what that is. Any suggestions on that? Councilman Engel: It's how to define that role right now. I'd like to hear more from Mark. Councilman Senn: You mean separately from what this commission... Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Engel: ! think before we proceed with the motion or anything, can ! get a little bit more detail on that box Mark, that box on resource management. Those line items under it. Administer police contract is pretty straight forward. Talk about the rest of it. Councilman Senn: Well that's really contract management more than police. Administer a police contract. Volunteer coordinator goes back to the whole element that we talked about during our sessions on the strategic plan, increasing not only the involvement but coordination.., betting and bringing better ways to use.., some resources that could you know save us effectively those dollars that we're not paying you know outside to do it. In that contract management area we talked about that at length during the budget process in terms of the need to... kind of oversee what the contract issues and make sure we are negotiating you know the best contract we can. Getting the best bang for our buck out of them. Councilman Engel: How about the community resources line then? Talk a little bit about that. Councilman Senn: The resource line again goes back to, ! think there were a whole bunch of different issues that we talked about during budget. Everything from looking at getting neighborhoods involved in adopting or taking care of neighborhood parks to you know, to ! can't remember them all to tell you the truth but there were a number of different issues that came up. Councilman Engel: So is that one person in that box? Councilman Senn: That's just one person. 40 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Labatt: Councilman Engel: thought. Councilman Engel: One person in that box. Mayor Mancino: Let's do some more defining on that. Let's take the administer police contract out of that and kind of leave that to the advisory committee that we just talked about setting up. I will certainly volunteer for looking at that resource management and the volunteer coordinator and community resources and Councilman Engel... Councilman Engel: Sure. Mayor Mancino: Now inspections. Inspections is under community development. And that's different than the law enforcement was kind of policing under the advisory committee. Councilman Labatt: Are we expecting to restructure the city tonight?... Mayor Mancino: ... advisory committee. Well okay. No, no. The advisory committee's simply to look at law enforcement I Councilman Labatt: ... law enforcement Nancy. Councilman Engel: Simply to look at law enforcement. Mayor Mancino: Simply to look at law enforcement. Councilman Labatt: Now my impression that we're going to form this advisory committee to look at law enforcement but yet leave everything else alone for a little bit. Mayor Mancino: No. Councilman Engel: No. Mayor Mancino: We have had three meetings looking at how the public safety department, how it would go into.., and one of the consensus with the direction is to have the advisory committee looking at the law enforcement part. Look into it. How we should, how it should function. Councilman Labatt: ... skip everything else tonight though. Mayor Mancino: We're going to...to staff. Councilman Labatt: So we're not going to wait for the new city manager to give direction to? 41 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: The consensus from the rest of council is to go forward. Councilman Labatt: That wasn't my... Councilwoman Jansen: We don't have to actually make, if I understand correctly, we don't have to make a motion on any of these things though, correct? I mean we just. Mayor Mancino: This is just giving direction to staff. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. It's just saying that this is the direction that we foresee we're going to be going in and then it really needs to be looked at and transitioned and proposals given. Mayor Mancino: There would need to be some transitional plans. Councilwoman Jansen: So it's not like we're going to say we vote to do this and it's done. I mean that's not what we're doing here? Councilman Senn: No...frame work. Mayor Mancino: ... so under community development you have inspections. Is there some consensus with direction as far as what we would like staff to do? Councilman Engel: What's that? Mayor Mancino: To be moving inspections under community development. Councilwoman Jansen? Do you feel comfortable with that? Giving that direction to staff?. Councilwoman Jansen: And I'm assuming that that's with the city manager sitting down with staff and working out that sort of a transition as to how that works. Mayor Mancino: That would be with our community development director and with our... Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. Councilman Engel: I also want to see the IS and the MIS functions pulled out of where they are now and over to finance. Okay. Mayor Mancino: ...to make sure that we're at consensus here. Is that your feeling Councilman Engel? To go forward in that direction the staff with inspections moving inspections to community development. Councilman Engel: Yes, but that's not all we're doing is it? Mayor Mancino: No. 42 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Engel: Okay. Mayor Mancino: I'm going at this one by one making sure that we're all. Councilman Engel: On board with that. Mayor Mancino: On board with that. And Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Fine. Mayor Mancino: And Councilman Labatt. Councilman Labatt: No. I'm not in favor of doing anything... Let's not hire a city manager then. Mayor Mancino: Going forward. Councilman Labatt: So you know, it was my impression, I'll repeat it again that we were going to form a task group to look at the law enforcement services that are being provided by Carver County and Chanhassen. Look at that and how things could either be improved, changed or left alone. And then we weren't going to be moving divisions from one place to another place tonight. That was my impression. Not reorganize the city... I'm not in favor of doing anything... Mayor Mancino: ! understand. ! hear you. Thank you. Councilwoman Jansen: I guess just to clarify, and I'm hearing that this isn't what councils do and in fact by statute councils have a wide range of discretion for developing an organizational structure and the reason that that's given falls under fiscal responsibilities. In many cities more than 60% of the operating budget may be devoted to personnel. Wages, benefits, recruitment and hiring training, ineffective personnel management, this is uncontrolled pay plans, ineffective hiring procedures, and I'm not saying we've got all this.., departmental organizational and ! don't even want to say this one, but can be an unnecessary drain on city resources. So this is a council function. We are not getting down to saying you know this person, that person and the other person. We're trying to look at the umbrella organization. We've grown extremely quickly. We have geared up as far as personnel structure and it's simply, we are now at a point where if we haven't stopped the budgeting process where we did and say no tax increase, we wouldn't have been number one and we would have had more people in this council chamber pounding on us for the fact that they had said now watch. You know we're going to go to number one in no time. We're at number three now. The only way, and it's the reason I'm even going down this path. Yes ! realize we're going to have a new city manager and that's why we need to look at it. Study it. Work with staff. All I'm hoping we're doing here is we're pointing in the direction that a lot of this information is saying we can go in and have an effective and a quality organization but maybe there's a cost savings here. And let's work together on it. Yes we are saying these are some of the areas that we can start working on and let's go from there. But we're all getting the same message and the message is, look at the bottom line. Look at how much it's costing us and 43 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 on top of that, we want a new library and we want an arena and we want a community center. We don't come up with those things by just sitting back and not looking at the spending. Councilman Labatt: ... reading there Linda. Councilwoman Jansen: It speaks to not affecting the personnel. We don't make personnel decisions. We do make organizational structures. Mayor Mancino: Let's go forward to organizational, the fire department. As far as pulling that out and having that directly report to the city manager. Can ! get some consensus on that? Councilman Engel, your thought on that? Councilman Engel: That's spending. That's just part and parcel of the same overriding theme that ! want to see followed and that is, ! want law enforcement to focus on law enforcement. ! don't think my kids or anybody else's in my neighborhood kids are benefitted by having law enforcement, personnel, whoever is in charge of a group that's delivering that service thinking or diddling with septic systems. Sewage. Whatever you want to call it. Building inspections. ! want law enforcement to focus on crime prevention period. So ! don't care if it's fire. You can throw everything else in there. ! don't want it in there. ! want law enforcement to focus on that. So fire department, yes. ! want it reporting directly to the city manager. Mayor Mancino: Again you'd pull out fire department. Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Yeah, pulling out's fine. Mayor Mancino: Councilwoman Jansen? Are you comfortable with that? Councilwoman Jansen: I'm fine. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Labatt? Councilman Labatt: Fire department? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Councilman Labatt: Reporting to city manager? Mayor Mancino: Yes... Councilman Labatt: No... Mayor Mancino: Again ! think that there would need to be...transitional plan. ! mean how, we're doing that right now but get something around that. How it... process would for the long run.., because right now are you not having the fire marshal report directly to you? 44 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Todd Gerhardt: Yes. Mayor Mancino: As Acting City Manager. Okay. Again, more of a policy around that and description on how that works coming back to council. Resource management, and Councilman Engel you had on MIS and IS... Councilman Engel: Those functions should be pulled into the finance group so you could flatten the city structure and see if you could get by with fewer people going forward to provide the same or increased amount of services required. Mayor Mancino: Are you responding to this finance and administrative services up here? Councilman Engel: Yeah. ! had it looking at a little bit differently when ! had chicken scratched mine but in a sense that is where ! got to. It's a consolidation of that staff. Focusing within the existing finance department. In that direction. Mayor Mancino: So what we're seeing in front of us, financing, administration is that you feel comfortable with that direction. You think it works well. Councilman Engel: Yeah. ! know it does in public companies. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn? Feel comfortable with that? Councilwoman Jansen? Councilwoman Jansen: At looking at it? Yes. Mayor Mancino: Again the direction would be to put the finance and administrative services at a staff function reporting directly to city manager. And just pulling those two together and combining them. Okay. My concern would be what that does to the finance director and who heads up that department. So Councilman Senn, what was your feeling about that box? Did you have a finance director overseeing that area? Or just being independent of it? Councilman Senn: ! believe the finance and administrative services, it'd almost have to be official basically ! think. Councilman Engel: The department looks as it as five people and now you're adding maybe two more IS specialists from the existing general admin box. It's up to them how they want to... staffing source. Mayor Mancino: Can you come back again directionally, this is the way the council would like to go. There's a consensus. Would you come back with the findings that you get in talking to our finance director on how this would work. Todd Gerhardt: Well my question is, office management goes underneath finance? And... haven't included GIS anywhere in this. 45 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Engel: That should be in that box. Councilman Senn: It was finance and administrative services. Todd Gerhardt: And finance would directly supervise over finance functions and administrative services would, you've got two people there. Councilman Senn: ... Todd Gerhardt: So the administrative individual would oversee the administrative people and the finance. Mayor Mancino: The finance would oversee the finance. Councilman Senn: Yeah, but the administrative person would report to the finance. Todd Gerhardt: And MIS and GIS would go underneath the finance? Councilman Senn: Yeah. Look at finance basically being finance and administrative services. Mayor Mancino: So it's not a lot different as it is now. Very much the same in that area. It only becomes a staff. Todd Gerhardt: Put them all in one box though. Mayor Mancino: It's a very simple box that kind of makes it. Any other questions that you have? Any other questions that you have? Okay. So there is consensus to that direction. Not... framework tonight. Todd Gerhardt: Got to keep a sense of humor in this business. Mayor Mancino: Yes. Any other comments on... Councilman Labatt: Are we going to have public comments? Mayor Mancino: Well then we're going to go into, yes. We're going to go into the commission structure and hear a little bit from Councilwoman Jansen and Councilman Engel on commissions. Do you want to please let us know what it is, the information that you got and your findings on commissions. Councilwoman Jansen: I just did a simple, somewhat simple chart of where we're at right now, just so everybody's on the same page as far as who's doing what. What we were looking at, and what the conversation had started around was when the Board of Adjustments and Appeals came up for conversation. Now ! guess it's been what, a week and a half. There was a Planning Commission meeting that week and so ! did attend the commission meeting, since ! had a captive 46 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 audience. And we had the conversation about the Board of Adjustments and Appeals function and how well that would fit in with their current functions and what they're working on as far as the job load. They felt very comfortable taking on this review in that we explained that it's maybe 10 to 13 reviews that they're doing a year. It isn't a major building, construction period. Kate spoke to the major versus the minor variances as she had presented to us. I think it was Plymouth's guidelines that were showing major and minor. That if they're minor, in fact it could be a staff recommendation. If it's major, it then goes before the Planning Commission to do the review. So they can even filter it down to where it's not even as cumbersome as far as the process. If it is a minor and staff can just say, you know yes. No. Do this instead. That it will filter out some of the smaller ones to where now the residents won't again have to go through that whole process. It will be a very simple staff function. Also spoke with a couple of the Parks and Rec commissioners along with Todd Hoffman, since he coordinates Parks and Rec. The review and recommendation part of their function, the whole parks and trails is a very significant part of what they do. And at this point it would be way too much for the Planning Commissioners as far as adding to their work load so it works out nicely to just leave it under Parks and Rec. The way that Todd also explained to me the different things that they do review, of all the projects that come through, he also spoke of it as major and minor. That minor again really just entails his doing a review of the plan and then passing the recommendation back to the planning department so again the residents haven't had to go through another hearing. But on the major reviews where we're talking about land purchases or whether or not they do need a neighborhood park. They've got the big picture of where we may have any of the deficiencies as far as parks or... those definitely are our experts in that respect and they can certainly keep track of those properties for us. So left that there. So the only real change is moving the Board of Adjustments and Appeals over underneath the Planning Commission. And everybody seemed okay with that. Interestingly I realized as I was doing this grid that our environmental commission in fact at one point was nine members, which I found unusual in that everyone else was at a seven member team, if you would. So in speaking with Jill, our coordinator of the environmental commission, I just posed the question to her, why nine? And she mentioned that a few years ago you had so many applicants to this particular commission you, or whoever was sitting on the council at that time, and I gather it was just a couple years ago, said fine. As long as we have that many people who are interested, it bumped up to nine. At this point they're saying nine was a little cumbersome for getting things done. And through attrition of their own, they're back down to seven and they're real happy with seven. That they can definitely get more accomplished that way. And going to their whole goals and objectives that they've now put together, the educational part of their function, they really have intensified taking a look at and wanting to be involved in the educational piece of it. So I think we're all on board as to where they're going and their goals. And the senior commission, heavens. They're a very active group and have their goals and objectives all laid out and I believe they were before the council even in, was it in December? November or December sharing their goals for the year and I know everyone's coming in. We've got the joint meetings with all the commissions in March is it that everybody is coming in? Mayor Mancino: March or April. 47 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: March or April, okay. So those were the seniors. Now what happened in the course of doing this was in our conversations we were looking for a home for some of the other projects that right now don't have a place to come to, like the library and so ! took the liberty of taking a strategic plan and ! listed some of the projects that at this point maybe need a home or need an umbrella group looking at the total. And again, these were just a few of the things that ! threw on here as ! was trying to maybe establish what it was we were trying to accomplish with a community resources and services commission, which a couple of the communities do have. ! think Minnetonka right off the bat comes to mind. That they had a community resources commission that does similar things. Looking at our need for the library. We've got our arts and culture that were noted needs within the strategic plan. We've got transportation, be it our different roadways or rail at this point or looking at the total needs of the community. The seniors at one point had even formed their own subcommittee that was looking at transportation issues specifically for seniors so they had already organized something along those lines. So looking at an organization that can maybe do it on a city wide basis. The different recreational activities or facilities. Again hearing the term volunteerism and maybe thinking if we had a group that's organizing and identifying the different volunteers that we have in the community to either work on neighborhood parks with the parks and rec commission, realizing that again this group overlaps the other commissions. But how do we create a home for people to be looking at the library. Do we just spin off all these individual task forces? Or do we try to focus it under one group? We're already looking at the MIS task force. The library at some point we need to talk about how we pull together that project under a task force or advisory group. Transportation came up the other night so. ! just pulled these together and tried to come up with well, what would a project flow be if it was a review with the council on some of the strategic plans and again going back to even the creation of the strategic plan and doing the community survey and at this point we're at the stage where we should probably be having the open houses on the strategic plan to get all of the comments and ! know we're getting a lot of e- mails and phone calls now that it's in the homes to maybe update or add some of that information to the planning process. And then it's the prioritization of the projects and it's working real closely obviously with the council to do that. And then do we then provide the guidance for which projects need the immediate priority as far as doing the fact finding and data gathering. So ! don't know, ! wasn't quite sure of what it was we were exactly trying to accomplish so ! just pulled out some of the functions that had been thrown out during the course of the conversation that we were trying to address. Do we just designate that the library should be looked at by the parks and rec commission? Do we just, you know ! don't want to lose the identity of the parks and rec commission by calling it the community resources and services. You know do they have enough on their plate? Do we go back to them and say, you know here's the list? What would you be interested in looking at and then where does transportation go? So that was one ! got no conclusion on. ! just threw some of the ideas on paper because it seemed like what we have is working. Where do these things get addressed though? Mayor Mancino: So it's really no recommendation but it's just a presentation of some outstanding things that we need to be working on and we don't have a commission that handles that at this point. It's also interesting that under the park and trail review and recommendations that two-thirds of that does not need a public hearing. That it is staff recommendation so ! think that's important to know. Councilman Engel. 48 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilman Engel: ! was focused more on the staff portion of this than ! was on the commission portion. Linda got terrific detail here. Much more than ! did. ! looked at the existing public safety commission as being more focused again on law enforcement because we don't know going forward whether there will be a Carver County law enforcement contract or whether it will be a Chanhassen employee based law enforcement component. We don't know that so ! would like it to be law enforcement and going forward with the detailing with that as they come back. Back in the city manager with the next reorg plan. But ! don't know about community resources and services yet. Mayor Mancino:... Councilman Engel: Yeah, it's fuzzy.., so I'm, and ! didn't look at changing. Park and Rec could be folded into that with things like library. ! saw senior, environmental and planning staying the same with the exception of board of adjustments being added to planning. Maybe the name of the commission actually changes and it's community development commission. Or it's got a name that more accurately reflects it's scope. That's where ! stopped. ! stopped at what the flow would do based on the way we look at the city's organization. Mayor Mancino: ... Councilman Senn: I don't know. It looks like good information. I don't know, my tendency would be to say let's digest it and talk about it more at the next work session, now that we have it. ! don't think there's any, ! mean there's no burning.., some good ideas here and it's just kind of a matter of thinking them through and.., that it relates I'm assuming on the public safety that that kind of, that wasn't addressed but ! assume given what we set up on the study group, that that kind of just remains what then on hold until decisions on what's going to come out of that or? Mayor Mancino:... Councilman Labatt: Well... at a given meeting the commission was updated on members from Chan Public Safety, Carver County Sheriff, building inspections, fire department, crime prevention, fire education. So I don't know.., a lot of valuable information that comes in... Highway 5 traffic safety... We need the commission. And then some of the things under community services. You know there is some duplication here. Some of the issues under here should be, I would think, don't need to be... Councilwoman Jansen: And if anyone wants to give direction as to whether at this point we ask the park and rec commission on these functions or if we, if you want to mull it over before that and before we do that as to you know whether it's a new commission or folding in there. Just another thing to kick around tonight. Councilman Labatt: I'd like to invite them to the next work session... Invite the commissions and this plan is... 49 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Well and we'll be speaking with them. I mean when we do our meetings in March and April with the commissions, we'll be speaking with them. I think that there are, you know there obviously are some overlaps. The arts and culture.., been something that the park and rec commission has looked at and also recreational activities and facilities. When I look at this, and just off the top of my head, again there are so many different library, transportation. I'm not sure that you'd get a group that had singular focus or wanted to have passion in one of these areas. I mean it's almost more like excuse me a task force or committee formed to do this. As much as a renaissance person as somebody can be, I'm just not sure that they would have the same passion for all these very different areas. So this would be something I'd want to look at. It's really interesting as far as under resource management, volunteer coordinator, community resources and then having some sort of a commission go with this area of the city so I don't know. We'll have to look at this and. Councilman Senn: Especially... volunteerism and extension and how you're going to have to extend.., if you do that. Mayor Mancino: That's interesting. Councilwoman Jansen: And the end result, we get more people involved. Whether we go with a commission or committee. Committees actually would, as you're saying, maybe get more people involved because they are different areas of interest. Mayor Mancino: ... people will have the time to dedicate.., something but don't want to stay on it for years and years and years. And so I think that that also happens. That people can come in and be involved for a little bit of time and then retreat and do whatever they need to for the rest of their life so. Councilwoman Jansen: The other part of it. The staff commitment. Because when we do set up a task force, and being new to this. I haven't done this. Isn't there a staff assignment so I guess then we come down to how many do we actually gear up without over working staff?. And I don't know how that... Mayor Mancino: Well that's something Mr. Gerhardt would like to take charge of. Todd Gerhardt: ...want a policy on that. Councilman Labatt: Tonight. Before you go to bed. Councilman Senn: Really as far as most cities go, I mean there's really very little change in any of them. There's some, a couple new things going to the parks and rec. There's, the issue becomes under community resources whether there should or shouldn't be something there and then how do you handle task force or specific study issues through a group like that or do you set up a specific task force? So I mean really the only change that has come out of all this discussion that's significant I guess would be the consolidation of Board of Adjustments with. 50 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: With the Planning Commission. Councilman Labatt: And the elimination of Public Safety. Councilman Senn: Well but that's not. Mayor Mancino: No, ! don't think you had that. Councilman Senn: No, that's not being suggested at this point. ! mean it's being left as an open issue. Councilman Labatt: ... Councilwoman Jansen: I put it on here realizing that we were having the conversation, or I wanted to pose the question about doing the whole advisory board and where that ends up and who's reporting to who. It's on here but we certainly would have to define what they're doing. Councilman Labatt: So the existing commission... Mayor Mancino: Yes, the existing commission is still in place. Comments on this commission. On the commission structure. on it? Actually met last week. Jan, do you have a few comments Jan Lash: Sure. I'd be willing to share my opinion but considering there are no other commissioners here ! can only speak for myself. ! look at some of those issues as things that ! think that the park and rec commission would be willing to take on and we've had numerous issues over the years that we've had task forces assigned to and it's usually something that's near and dear to a particular commissioner's heart or whatever. So library ! could see could possibly fall there. ! see the arts and, what was it? Dramatic. Mayor Mancino: Arts and culture. Jan Lash: Yeah, that's it. That one I could see could fall under there. Transportation would be kind of a stretch but maybe that could go to planning. That could go to public safety. That could go to some other commission and kind of distribute the wealth a little bit. But ! think if you just looked at these particular things as they crop up. They are one time items and we've dealt with those you know like the community center issue and the park task force to work on land acquisition and some of those things. So ! see that we could definitely find homes without having to create another commission, you know if that's your thing that you want to do, you know go for it. But they are, ! think they are a lot of short term items and it will be harder to find people who would feel that their heart is in all these different areas that crop up as much as just short term assigning them to a commission and then once we get to the meat of it, we pass it onto you. 51 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Although remember that park referendum task force stayed going for 2 lA years ! think it was so sometimes it can happen that way. Jan Lash: But it's just one item too you know, so it's not quite such an all encompassing volunteer position to have. And ! agree. ! think that council got enough feedback from commissioners on how we felt about the regulatory or review process that we go through and ! think that Linda and Mark addressed that very well. That we feel that's a very important piece of what we do for the city. Mayor Mancino: Good, thank you. Councilwoman Jansen: Thanks Jan. Mayor Mancino: Is there any other commissioners or anyone else who would like to speak on the commission set-up? Colleen Dockendorf: It's interesting that you mention the environmental commission because ! remember when we did form, it was nine people. Basically took everyone. And we found that the interests were different and it kind of fell apart because of that. Some people wanted to work on recycling. Some people wanted to work on planting trees so ! think when you do set up a, ! think the task force probably works better than a set commission because there are going to be people such as Friends of Library who are going to want to work on a specific issue. So ! think the committee or the task force route is probably a better way of going. Again, they can dedicate like you said Mayor, 5 to 6 months on a particular issue and then dispense with it. ! know that there are certain commissions that are set up by statute. Specifically the planning commission but ! think that over the course of the years we've kind of fluctuated with the number of different commissions that we have and ! know that, at least in my opinion ! think we're at a comfortable amount of set commissions. ! mean ! think it definitely makes sense to have Park and Rec. Definitely makes sense to have Planning. Of course we need that. ! think Public Safety is an important commission to have as a forum for citizens to express their concerns as well as just to provide input and feedback on how public safety issues are being met. The environmental commission. Seeing where we are in our growth. ! think that's an important commission so I'm not certain that ! see based on the list that you've given a need for a whole separate commission. Again I'll just repeat myself. ! think a task force or a committee structure probably works better at this point. Mayor Mancino: One of the things, just to tell you that the excuse me, the environmental commission has done. ! think that they have picked different projects that they want to work on so that those who have a passion maybe more towards water quality, maybe 2 or 3 out of the commission work on that. And those who have concerns about recycling and business needs are focusing on that group so they've almost kind of divided inside the commission. Colleen Dockendorf: Yeah, to suit their needs and what. Mayor Mancino: And the specific concerns, yeah. 52 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Colleen Dockendorf: If! may use this time just to comment. I'm very surprised. I've been out of town for the last three weeks so coming to this meeting, ! was very surprised to see that you're dealing with entire city reorganization. I'm flabbergasted to be honest. ! know that the final decision regarding city manager is awfully close and ! understand that the role of the council is to give leadership and direction but boy, I'm awfully concerned that you're getting into the nitty gritty. ! really think you know, you hire a city manager and you say look. We want to cut costs. Show us how. That's their job. Mayor Mancino: Anyone else? Any more comments on commissions? Bob Ayotte: I've got a question. Mayor Mancino: Excuse me. If you have, please come forward. State your name and address. If you have a question on commissions. Bob Ayotte: ... Mayor Mancino: This is on commissions Bob. Bob Ayotte: Commissions? Okay. My name is Bob Ayotte and I live at 6213 Cascade Pass. Councilman Jansen, or any other council people. Have there been any inquiries with respect to a commission regarding ethics by chance? Mayor Mancino: No, not that I know of. Bob Ayotte: May ! submit and request an example. I just, here's my...file and I've been doing some checking on the tax credit that you folks will be talking about and ! have a concern about what may be ethics issues with some of the people that we deal with, and I've done some judgment roles and a few other things in that regard and ! would request and submit to city council and to you legal counsel if we could possibly inquire about the, whether or not it would be to our advantage to consider a commission that would look at the ethics of business, residents and city council with regard to our intentions with introduction of business into the city. With regard to standards for the citizenry itself and to establish standards as target so that we can possibly bring more cohesion between council, community and business. Is there any possibility that we can investigate the attempts of a commission for the idea of ethics and how it aligns with the statutes as an example? Mayor Mancino: We will certainly, all questions come to me. We'll certainly entertain that. Bob Ayotte: ! missed, you said the questions have to come to you? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Bob Ayotte: Oh, I'm sorry. 53 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: And Bob we'll also, we can certainly entertain that. About a commission regarding ethics. We can also find out what other cities have and what they are doing. Bob Ayotte: Okay, and when could I hear back from you Mayor? Mayor Mancino: Well we are going to continue this discussion. So as we continue this discussion, because we're not going to come to any conclusion tonight on commissions. Bob Ayotte: Well we almost reorganized an entire city this evening. I don't know why we can't get a response on when I get an answer on whether or not an ethics commission is a reasonable thing to request. Mayor Mancino: We will be taking it up at our next work session as we discuss commissions. Bob Ayotte: Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Vernelle Clayton: My name is Vernelle Clayton, as you all know. I live at 422 Santa Fe Circle. I have a question procedure. You're asking for comments on commissions at this moment. Will you be asking on comments on reorganization later? Mayor Mancino: No. We've already taken those public comments. Vernelle Clayton: Okay. Mayor Mancino: We took those last week. Excuse me, so if you want to go ahead on commissions at this point. Vernelle. Vernelle Clayton: My take on, I want to, I have a lot to say. It's very difficult to sit in this audience from time to time without developing I think, I'm afraid an attitude. But I will try to keep my comments for a number of reasons to just a few points. First of all, a very practical point. Your comment about making it easier for people taking plans through the city if they just had to go to planning commission, not to park and trails. I think I probably have been responsible for as many plans through this city as any other one person here in town and it's never an issue. So leaving it the way it is is not going to make it any more difficult for our life as developers or taking plans through the city. They have a little routine they go through.., very, very well. Mayor Mancino: And that is what Councilwoman Jansen told us. That there really isn't a need. Vernelle Clayton: I tell you that from, you didn't solicit my perspective on that but from the perspective of a user, I concur. I also think that, I have taken some time, a fair amount of time between these meetings to do some independent polling of what people think about what's going on in the city. And I won't go into what it is they think because it ranges from one spectrum to 54 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 another with relatively little apathy. Most people have an opinion and so while I'm here tonight, I'm not here as a part of a group. But the people that are here are representing a fair number of people and ! really think that you need to think about that. You need to think about it in the planning, in the reorganization. It is amazing to almost everyone what has been going on in this city. And ! don't come up here relishing the idea of doing this or saying this. But ! hope maybe ! have a little credibility and that as a fresh voice. So let me before ! launch into my apple pie and motherhood portion say that if you buy any of my arguments, then ! think that you should understand that there is the need for healing to go in this city. ! don't think probably any of you would deny that that's important. How we get there though is where we might have some disagreements. ! think that as you address the possibility of an advisory committee to look into public safety, and as you talk about whether you should have commissions dealing with issues or not, please look at the ways in which people can most easily participate. It's not terribly easy to participate in a commission. You have to come before the council. You have to make a pitch for yourself. You have to get appointed. To a lot of people that's very intimidating. And a lot of these people have a lot to offer. So as we approach issues, let's try to approach them in a way that gets the most people involved. Not the most easily manageable group but the most people. There are wonderfully talented people here in the city of Chanhassen. They would love to participate. They're a little bit cautious right now ! want to tell you because they have a feeling their voice won't be heard. So we need to turn that around, and I'm very serious about that. People wonder why ! care so much about Chanhassen and how ! would jeopardize what ! do for a living by coming here and sort of deliberately antagonizing you. I'm doing it because ! care about Chanhassen and about the people that came before me and before you. Because there were a lot of wonderful people that created this wonderful city that we all live in and are so proud of and take great interest in trying to manipulate from time to time. We didn't get here by accident and we didn't get here because everything was wrong. The city is in great financial shape. The commissions are committed and ! don't think that there is any need any longer for any of these good folks, whether they're paid by us citizens as staff, or volunteer their time to be criticized for what they're doing. And this is done openly, indirectly, and by innuendo and by planning to readjust their lives. Let me tell you a couple of things that ! listen to. When ! come home from these meetings ! can't sleep very well and even on nights after, and it was a wonderful weekend this past weekend. What with Presidents Day and all of that coming along and there were a lot of people talking very, very talented people. People that went and studied at Oxford and so forth on CNN, late at night. They talked about our history. They said that government exists, those folks that started our country determined that government exists to preserve the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness period. And any time we deviate from that, thank heavens we have a democracy and people are willing to stand up and pull them back on course. Madison said that, and this is what ! would like you folks to listen to. Because we have an argument and a disagreement in here in town as to what is micro management and what is the appropriate amount of micro management and where administration of a city starts and where it ends. And ! think we need to get that resolved for the benefit of whomever is the new city manager, because it's going to be very difficult if that line is not drawn. And obviously all of us who talk from time to time have a different opinion of what you think it should be. And ! recognize that you are well meaning. You want to do the right thing for the city, but those of us who have lived here for a few years have never seen anything like it quite frankly. Madison said that an enlighten statesman will not always be at the helm in addressing this kind of issue. And so you need to think about as you set 55 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 precedence. You may think that you're enlightened, but you're setting a standard for future councils and ! can assure you they won't all have as much time to devote to the job, do as much research as you have or spend as much time and they shouldn't have to because it was set up so that they shouldn't have to spend that much time. As the country developed and moved westward, those folks were still carefully cautious about preserving the democracy and one of the first things they did as they moved on, whether they were attorneys or not or well educated or not, and usually some of them were, was to set up by-laws and regulations on how to govern their little communities as they went along. And these were the spontaneous combustion of small groups as the fellow from Oxford said, that is so necessary in preserving our lifestyle and our democracy. They set up these rules because they knew that to protect our democracy they needed to have order. We still do that. We live by Robert's Rules of Order. Sometimes people put it down. Sometimes you get confused as a council. I've been in many meetings where there's little attention given to Robert's Rules of Order. And always some sort of chaos comes about. Those things are important. Our charter is important. We have a particular plan of government that's important. It's a Plan A form of government which gives an awful lot of authority to our city manager. And that wasn't done without thinking. That was done so that folks like all of us sitting here can have full time jobs and still be members of a council and elected Mayor and serve on commissions and so forth. We're not supposed to be full time, but we are supposed to be responsible and we are expected to follow the rules. We in the audience are expected to follow the rules and we expect no less from you folks. We have a difference of opinion from time to time. ! count many of you as my friends, but you have a responsibility and ! think that there an awful lot of people that ! surveyed that would like a little bit of change on your part and a lot less threatening change on all these folks whose lives have been so incredibly disrupted. Thank you for your patience. Mayor Mancino: Vernelle, if you could stay up for a minute. Couple of things. The commission structure that we have, and we've had for quite a while and I've certainly been on a commission and I've had, in the past I've been on the Planning Commission. Prior to that ! was on another commission, a Tree Board Commission or something. And it was started and it was eliminated. It was folded into the Environmental Commission so ! have been on different task forces. Different commissions that have stopped and started and the council at the time made the decision to do that. ! really didn't take it at the time personally. Yes, ! was volunteering my time and ! was just told that that particular commission was going to be folded into another one and wasn't asked too much about it. We tried at our work session when we were doing some brainstorming to say are we, is this the best concept that we should have with commissions. Never, ever said there was any particular commission that wasn't running right. We didn't say that about park and rec. We just said could it be a little more efficiently administered or whatever and we said, we're not sure. But let's make sure that we do the research before we go any further because there weren't any members that we said we did or didn't like on it. To that degree, and ! think that both Linda and Mark have come back with recommendations that hey, it's we're operating well. Some of the concerns that a member of the council had really aren't of great concerns. ! think it's more important that we keep on in this same direction. So we didn't just make a decision. We didn't say that everything was wrong that needed to be changed. We said here's a concept here. Should we look at it any further or we should we just stop right now? And do the interview process, the research and say are the commissions working. Kind of just stopping for a minute 56 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 and doing that and that's what we proceeded to do. I did not hear any council member during that brainstorming session.., stop and say this commission isn't doing their job. This commission, the volunteers on it aren't people that we value... ! don't ever remember hearing that. So ! just wanted to talk to that, and ! don't know if any council member. Councilwoman Jansen: Madam Mayor, not to address the audience directly going by Robert's Rules. Vernelle Clayton: ! understand. Councilwoman Jansen: Vernelle had brought up the idea that we need to come up with ways to make it easier for people to get involved. That maybe the interviewing process coming onto commissions is strenuous. What were you referring to about easier? Vernelle Clayton: ! was not, what ! was attempting to say was let's have as many task forces as we possibly can. That's how people can easily get involved. They can feel free to come and go. Some people have just a little bit of time to spend and don't want to make a commitment for a longer term, and they have a real passion for a number of things. And that way we get the best and the brightest without belaboring that. Without them feeling belabored with a lot of extra. It also then they can just come and they don't have to pass any kind of test. You know they don't have to say hey I'm the best and you have to vote on it to get on, to be appointed. Mayor Mancino: Which is such a formal process. Vernelle Clayton: Yes. Mayor Mancino: The other thing about a task force sometimes is that, being on the Highway 5 corridor task force, because it isn't a commission. You don't tend to come to all the meetings all the time and so it allows you a little greater flexibility. And again it's very, very specialized in certain areas so it allows people with a passion to do it. And the only down side from what Linda said earlier was that it takes more staff to have more task forces because they need to be working with it. So again ! think that we want to be in that right compliment of. Vernelle Clayton: It may or may not take more staff. If you're doing all those things under a commission, maybe they have to have more staff here so. If they can get a volunteer to take some notes. There's lots of ways of doing it. And my discussion about change is that, Steve's been saying if it's not broke, don't fix it. We've all heard that expression a lot. ! think just going into, my take on this is that just going into having a new city manager is a little, has got to be a little scary for staff anyway. It comes with some change and then to even listen to you folks considering change is, it makes people concerned and a little skeptical. Partly because ! think it's based to some extent on this document which ! think it was a lot of people's understanding that, and ! don't think you'll disagree, this isn't done yet. Mayor Mancino: It's a framework... 57 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Vernelle Clayton: It's a start I think. We'd like to think that there'd be some opportunity for, I think there should be a staff person on this. Some opportunities for real input, not just open houses where it simply is explained to us. There's an area that ! think is omitted from this for example and ! think there's some other people that would like to have some input on some of it. Mayor Mancino: Absolutely. Vernelle Clayton: So ! would like to say that before this is a litmus test, before we start referring to it as being a litmus test, that ! think it needs to be finished a little bit more with a little bit more, there is not much ownership among some of the community stakeholders on this document yet until they have a chance to have some input. And if nothing more comes from my tirade on citizenship tonight then that we have some input on this, and a little more compassion for some of our folks that have done so well for our community for so long, I'll be happy. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you Vernelle. Vernelle Clayton: ! think I've worn out my welcome to be perfectly honest. Mayor Mancino: And that is, this strategic plan is certainly a framework. A conceptual framework. We do want people to respond to and we certainly have it. ! know that that's one of the things that Council member Jansen had talked about. Having a task force just for the strategic plan and getting it out there. So thank you. We're thinking along the same lines. Barb Klick: Barb Klick, 7116 Utica Lane. Mayor Mancino, ! appreciate your last comments about commission and ! agree. There is a time for commissions and there's a time for change for commissions. What ! just want to speak to as a past public safety commissioner, and this is 8-10 years ago. I'm not on a commission now but ! do feel very passionate about this, and what ! feel passionate about is the way you have a system that from our perspective as a citizen, you've not used that. And so that your actions do not speak with your words. They don't mesh for me. Tonight I've heard a lot of discussion about task force, other commissions. Task force. And there's a part of me that says well why are they going to do this? They aren't using the ones they have and so ! realize there's time for change and there's time that things may be melted and moved on, but if you go back to where this started, you know the public safety commission was not involved. They were not communicated with the Scott Harr issue. They immediately were cut out. They didn't know if they were in. They were out. They saw a memo they're out. No one talks to them. ! mean this is not the type of relationship and networking we're trying to build, or community linchpins. So that moves on. They try and meet. They're stopped at meeting, and even tonight, ! mean ! felt myself kind of rising up in my chair and Councilman Labatt had to muscle back in the public safety commission. Now that's not to say that we need more compliment to that commission to help research some big decisions. But ! hope you can understand from a citizen's standpoint, this seems very ironic to me when you're speaking about trying to involve other citizens and ! want to scream out at you and say, there are citizens in place wanting to work with you and you won't even work with them. If there's something wrong with the commission, there's something wrong with the way it's working, then work on that but to exclude them is going to continue this rift and I'm finished as I'm a patient woman but I'm going 58 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 to keep coming back. I'll keep talking to people and I'll keep rattling the cage because ! don't think we're doing what we set out to do. So if it needs to be changed, let's work on it together but the way we've gone about it is, we have camps. We know that. And ! appreciate you giving us to come in to talk and dialogue. ! hope we can come to this because, I'll write a letter to the editor and you're going to send in your letter to the editor and I'll talk to two more friends in my neighborhoods and I'll talk to my church. ! mean this is going to go on and on and on... and we were forced to do that. That's not the high road ! prefer to take but ! do not feel like ! had a voice and ! don't think the commission felt like they had a voice and ! think we could avoid a large part about this if that community linchpin was used and they would have calmed someone like me down and said, oh we're working with the council. Here are some of the issues. That didn't happen. Now if there's something out there I'm missing, enlighten me but I'm just saying that has to stop and you know, again the comments tonight were, where was this community volunteer group in your thoughts? None of your thoughts. Every one focused on law enforcement and the old task force, task committee, task force, task committee. What are we, potted plants? ! mean how do we get back in? How do we have a voice? And if there's a change to be made, then work with us on how the change should be made. ! don't feel like we've been included. So those are my comments on commissions. ! believe that five elected officials cannot do the job alone. You need good staff and you need community input. Mayor Mancino: Absolutely. Barb, we have met. The public safety commission has met the last two months. Our Acting City Manager. Barb Klick: One meeting, is that correct? Mayor Mancino: No, we've had two meetings. Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm talking. The Acting City Manager called one in January and it was, ! would say more of a private meeting with just the commission members and we just had one last week. And as far as organizational, as far as staff, etc .... and the firing and kind of that.., of staff, and that's left to the city manager. The City Council has not gotten involved in that part of it and so it certainly would not go to a commission for review. Barb Klick: But I'm not talking about review. I'm talking about pure communication. Obviously there's things that are not going to be privy to all citizens of the public, but ! would think, if! was a public safety commission and there was something big like that happened, ! would think someone would pick up the phone and call me and say, by the by. I'd like you to tell the rest of the commission the public safety director has resigned. Or ! mean of course there's going to be a hundred questions around that. So where was that? Where was that trust? Where was that communication? And if this was the manager's job and you heard fairly quickly that didn't happen, then ! would say it's the council's position to put the manager in place to do that job. And if that void was there, then give the acting manager. I'm just saying it went very poorly and you know ! think a lot of this could have been avoided, and unfortunately here we are. So thank you. Mayor Mancino: Anyone else wishing to talk on commissions? 59 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Patsy Bernhjelm: Patsy Bernhjelm, 9380 Kiowa Trail. Commissions only, okay. It appears that there's a lot of change that is being discussed about the commissions and as the wife of a commission member, someone who has given up her husband the second Thursday of every month for the last 12 years. Who has been on the commission since I believe it's inception. And who does have a lot of input and a lot of information that could be gathered as a police chief. As someone who could give you some information. He was just asked last week at the first meeting. Oh excuse me, the second meeting. There was a meeting in January. First it was on. Then it was off. Then it was on. Then it was off. So he did go to that meeting but that was the only time any information was given. Mayor Mancino you were there. Council member Jansen you were there. And I agree also, and I just want to go on record as saying I agree with Barb Klick. It just looks odd. That here is this commission of people, as I say my husband. A dedicated person for 12 years and isn't even consulted. Isn't contacted. Nothing. The public safety commission head, Jim Sloss. Not called. Not given any information. Again, we can't go back. That's what's happened in the past, but please utilize these people. Please use them for the talents they have. I am encouraged that you're going to have an advisory committee. I'm encouraged that it's going to be two members of the commission, two council people who have some law enforcement experience, and two members of the city. I don't feel that I personally can go in it because I would like to think that my husband would be involved in it but I would hope that whoever it is would bring fresh ideas to it. So thank you for opening that door to the public. I appreciate that and I think I hope I speak for other people. But please, try to keep the doors of communication open. Mayor Mancino: Anyone else wishing to address the council on this issue? You're going to be on the 212 commission. A1 Klingelhutz: Al Klingelhutz. I live on 8600 Great Plains Boulevard. I really didn't come up to this meeting tonight to stay after 7:00. The 212 meeting was over then and I guess I have to agree a little bit with Vernelle. Being a long time Chanhassen resident, pretty much involved all the time, I've had a lot of people come up to me and say, what's going on at city hall? I read the letters in the Villager, which the Villager has to print. Or doesn't have to but it's an obligation to print letters to the editor. And I see a lot of turmoil with quite a few people, and I guess that's one of the reasons I stayed after 7:00. It was going to be an organization meeting and I wanted to see what the organization meeting was all about. You talked about public safety and you talked about police contracting and possibly, Gene Coulter and I were the first two that.., the police contracting with the city of Chanhassen back I believe it was in 1967. 30 some years ago. It's worked very good and I think the city of Chanhassen has saved millions of dollars by contracting with Carver County rather than having their own police department. But I just got a feeling, in reading the paper and many people have come up to me and say hey, what's going on? And I really haven't got an answer for them. I know Nancy's invited me to come up and meet the proposed city manager tomorrow. I really appreciate that. In fact the city manager form of government started when I was Mayor way back in the 60' s. It was part of my campaign when I ran for Mayor. There was a lot of talk against figuring the local government would lose too much control. The city council couldn't do what they wanted to because the city manager does have a lot of power and I hope you all know that. You go and look at the city manager's rules, what he can do and what he can't do, it's quite permissible to think that one person can do that. Sure, you 60 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 can hire and fire him but while he's on the job, he does have a lot of power. And you're talking about forming committees, starting new establishments here tonight. But you are in the process of hiring a new city manager. It could be Todd. It could be one of the four other ones that you're going to be interviewing tomorrow but ! really believe that before you make too many more decisions, you wait until you hire a city manager and he probably can give you a lot of good advice on what you should do with these committees and how you should react to them and what can be done. ! guess ! wouldn't be too much in a hurry now about appointing new committees and maybe his thoughts will be on a little different line, whoever you hire. Todd might be. Right now ! think he's kind of sitting and listening and hey, ! don't want to turn the waters too much because ! still want to be city manager. Mayor Mancino: And A1 you know, we have not changed the commission structure at all tonight. Al Klingelhutz: No ! know but you're talking about reorganization and things like that and really. Mayor Mancino: And we have set up an advisory committee to look at the policing part with hopefully the new city manager will be on that too, so. Al Klingelhutz: I know, well Bud will listen. In fact I was on his campaign and helped get him elected. ! think he's a great new sheriff and you'll have a lot of good results with him. ! don't think he'd want to take charge of animal control though. Because if he has to put a full paid deputy on animal control when he can hire a person for much less to do that same job, ! think it would be a lot better to hire that person. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. And that's all the things hopefully we'll find out. All the investigating, due diligence that we'll find out. Anyone else wishing to address council on commissions? The need for, the need not. Are there a couple people, we'll take five minutes for anyone else who would like to come up in front of council to address the council. Councilman Labatt: On any item or on commissions? Mayor Mancino: On anything. We will be looking more, talking a little bit more about commissions as far as at a work session from what Bob asked about ethicalness. We will also be just kind of looking over the information that we got from Councilwoman Jansen and just talking a little bit more about that. Task forces, committees, etc. Patsy Bernhjelm: Patsy Bernhjelm, 9380 Kiowa Trail. Are we going to have, is there going to be another public hearing then on the reorganization? Is there going to be another opportunity for the public to speak regarding that issue? Mayor Mancino: I'm sure there will after the advisory committee comes back to council with some suggestions, etc. Patsy Bernhjelm: Okay. Can we hold you to that? 61 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Yeah. Patsy Bernhjelm: Mayor Mancino: Patsy Bernhjelm: ... Good. You know ! think Patsy, it will take a month or two. mean ! don't think. Colleen Dockendorf: ! just want to get a summary of what happened tonight. We're setting up an advisory committee to talk about policing services. However you've, yes right? You've also given instruction to staff to pull inspections to, under Kate's area, right? Mayor Mancino: Under community development. Colleen Dockendorf: Community development. Mayor Mancino: And see some sort of a transitional plan and what that will mean. Colleen Dockendorf: So does that mean you're asking staff for a recommendation on that or that's the direction you want to go? Mayor Mancino: That is the direction we want to go. Colleen Dockendorf: Okay. And is, like ! said, ! haven't been around the last several weeks. That decision is based on what reasoning? Mayor Mancino: The reasoning that you heard tonight. From council members as to why we thought it was a good idea comparing it to other communities and where the inspections. Colleen Dockendorf: Have we asked Eden Prairie why they just made the decision to go back the other way? No? Okay. All right. Mayor Mancino: I'm sure you can shoot holes in... Colleen Dockendorf: Well no, it's a judgment call. ! mean I just, you know. You're right. It is 6 to one, half a dozen to the other. I'm just concerned that we're not making it arbitrarily. That we have reasons for it. And the other decision was to look at this proposed organizational structure? Or this is the organizational structure? Mayor Mancino: No, we did not make that the organizational structure. Colleen Dockendorf: Okay. I'll give you a call tomorrow Todd. I'm still uncertain of how we are formed. Mayor Mancino: Well say it back to us what you heard tonight so that Colleen. 62 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Colleen Dockendorf: Well ! heard we're definitely forming a task force on looking at policing issue but at the same time we're changing the structure by pulling inspections and giving it to Kate. Mayor Mancino: Yes. Colleen Dockendorf: Okay. Mayor Mancino: That is one change. Colleen Dockendorf: And you are looking at. Mayor Mancino: And we are changing fire department and making that a separate line item. Direct report to the city manager. The direction was given for that too. Colleen Dockendorf: Okay. Mayor Mancino: And on the resource management, did you see that right box? Colleen Dockendorf: Yes. Mayor Mancino: We said two of the council members. We didn't do anything about that. We're going to kind of, you know what is that? What does that mean? Look at that, yeah. And then the other direction that we gave was putting the finances and administrative services together as, in there but also adding GIS and MI. No, MIS is already in there. GIS. Colleen Dockendorf: Okay. Have you run any of these decisions by the city manager candidates? Again I'm coming back to you know, we're putting in a structure and giving it to a person as opposed to getting their professional opinion on it. Mayor Mancino: We're trying to give as much direction as we can now to go in a way. It is a way that many, many cities are already set up. It's not one of those things, cutting edge. We're doing all this you know new things that cities have never tried. It's there. It's working. And the major area in law enforcement is what we are taking the time to look at and really spend some time doing our due diligence. The only, the big change would be inspections. Colleen Dockendorf: Yeah, and like ! said that' s, you know it's a valid argument to put it under planning. ! just, ! want to make sure that we're doing it with reasons behind it because it feels arbitrary to me. But you know, that's your decision. Okay. Thank you for that summary. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Patsy Bernhjelm: This is just a question. So these recommendations are to you Todd? And then it's up to you to decide if you are in fact going to put planning, is that right? 63 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Mayor Mancino: No. That is a council direction to our city manager to go ahead with that. Patsy Bernhjelm: Okay. So Todd as acting city manager is under orders to do that? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Patsy Bernhjelm: So if the new city manager comes in and doesn't like that, that's too bad? Is that right? Mayor Mancino: Well that's one way to look at it. If the new city manager. Patsy Bernhjelm: Once you have a new city manager and he says no, ! like it this way. Mayor Mancino: Again Patsy this is not just you know something that we're doing this just out of. Patsy Bernhjelm: It just seems so fast and so close. Tomorrow you're going to be interviewing the new city manager. Mayor Mancino: We may not get a new city manager for a month or two. The direction that staff would like from public safety is to get us down the path. Give us the direction that we need. That we want to go ahead with our lives. We want to make sure that we have a job. We want to know who we're working with and that we're trying to do. You can't have it both ways. These are the areas where there is concern on our part to understand is more on the law enforcement and we feel very comfortable going ahead and making obviously.., and making the inspections move. Patsy Bernhjelm: So Todd's recommendation to just leave it as it is, isn't being followed? Mayor Mancino: We do not always go with staff recommendations on everything. Patsy Bernhjelm: ! understand. Believe me, ! worked for a city for 10 years. ! know that. understand. Mayor Mancino: We ask for it. They make recommendations and many times we go with it 100%. Sometimes we take part of it and not the other part. It's his recommendation. Patsy Bernhjelm: Okay. And so the new city manager just takes it, okay. I just have a hard time with that Mayor Mancino. I'm sorry. I just think that that's, it's just so fast and it's just, you're on the cusp of getting a new manager and what's a month or two when you're looking at the global picture? The precedence is being set. Mayor Mancino: We don't feel it's been fast but ! understand your concern. 64 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Kenneth Block: Good evening. My name is Kenneth Block. ! live at, on Dakota Avenue in Chanhassen. ! have basically a question which has come up from observing the proceedings this evening. You'll have to forgive me, I'm an engineer. By profession I'm an empiricist. Mayor Mancino: By profession pardon? Kenneth Block: I'm an empiricist. You've made some decisions tonight to change the organization slightly perhaps. To what goal were these changes made? That's the first question. I'm asking for an answer. Mayor Mancino: Because we think it's better for the community to make these changes. Kenneth Block: In what way? Mayor Mancino: Each council member said, stated why they felt this was a good change. Now whether it's all quantifiable. If for instance if we were going to plant boulevard trees in the streets of Chanhassen, we don't go back and quantify everything and say exactly how many trees we already have. How many we're going to plant. We try to make our decisions based on doing some research and due diligence and what we feel is in the best interest of the community. Kenneth Block: That's a pretty nebulous statement, in the best interest of the community. Is the best interest in terms of a more efficient organization? In the best interest in terms of a less costly organization? What direction? Mayor Mancino: Both. Kenneth Block: Where's the data? Where is the comparison? How do you make a decision without making comparisons? Mayor Mancino: We have. We compared the structure that we have here to other communities and seeing where we're going. We have also had numerous concerns with inspections under the law enforcement area of the city as far as the law enforcement mentality so there are other. Kenneth Block: I'm not questioning the decision of the law enforcement. That decision was to study it. That's appropriate. The other changes, you've done one piece of the decision making process. You've done the brainstorming. You've not made any pros and cons. Not made any comparisons. You've made opinions. And then voted on those. That's not a professional decision making. Mayor Mancino: ! disagree. Any council member want to add to that. Councilman Engel: For months we've been taking this input. Weeks. We've got lots of data. Realms of it. We have had lots of public comment on it. We've taken it. 65 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: And through the whole budgeting process realizing that we were looking at other communities budgets as well as organizational charts as well as all the cost effectiveness. Looking at the sheriff's contract. All of that factored in to the whole decision making process. And then throwing it back, it's not as if we're saying, we haven't said that the biggest piece of the change just happened. Mr. Gerhardt's going to go back. Get with staff. Show us what the results are. What the steps are. Kenneth Block: No, Mr. Gerhardt has been instructed to make these changes. That question was asked. Mayor Mancino: He's going to come back and. Kenneth Block: You were asked was he instructed to study it and you said no. He was instructed to make the changes. Now ! listened to the entire conversation. The entire discussion and ! didn't see any organization to the discussion that would indicate that you went from A to B to make a decision. ! don't think we're going to come to agreement on this so ! will let it rest at that. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: ! don't think we're going to an agreement either. Okay. Leah Hawke: Hi. Leah Hawke, 7444 Moccasin Trail. And ! guess ! just wanted to state that I've been to every budget hearing. My husband or ! have been here. We've sat through all these reorganizational proposals and ! have to tell you Mr. Senn, through the Mayor, I'm not that familiar with Robert's Rules but ! don't see the data here either. ! share Mr. Block's concerns with how we are proceeding in this matter. ! had a glimmer of hope when ! got here this evening and heard task force. ! thought the council perhaps was going in the right direction. They had some recommendations. Todd had some recommendations and it would be sent to a task force with council members, residents and members of the public safety commission, or any other commission frankly. ! think the changes that are being made here are substantial and we have absolutely nothing to back then. ! don't think of myself as a stupid woman. ! serve in a brokerage industry as a business analyst. ! look at this every day. The numbers aren't there. We have a new plan tonight. I've never seen it before. I've never seen it before so ! don't know the data that you're talking about. ! don't know where it came up or where it's been made publicly available. I've sat through all of these meetings. ! haven't seen it. This newest plan is exactly that. New. We had four proposals at one point. Two of them from Todd, two of them from the council. From the last meeting it was my understanding that we were going to do a cost benefit analysis of each of these. ! looked at one cost benefit analysis that was done and I've got to commend Linda for doing a lot of work on it. But you know as a resident and a taxpayer how much that's going to save me? Not a whole heck of a lot. If you run the numbers, it's a case of pennies and we're putting a lot of people, a lot of city staff through a lot of turmoil for the sake of pennies. I'm also really concerned about quality of services. We're not looking at any of that. Tonight ! sat through a meeting where the council came up with what they think is a good idea and they've given direction to the city manager, acting city manager to implement those changes. It's not appropriate. You've done, number one, residents were not aware that you were going to change the entire structure of city government. That's not the notice that ! read. That pamphlet, 66 City Council Work Session - February 16, 1999 ! don't have a copy of the piece of paper that Mr. Senn handed out. It was put up on a slide. Nobody was given a chance to review it. Go back. Look at it. Consider it. ! commend you for going out and talking to people in your community but you talked to them about law enforcement. The whole issue of reorganization hasn't come up. Have you talked to Chamber of Commerce people? Have you talked to businesses? Have you talked to city staff before you've done this? You are headed in the right direction. You really were with the task force idea that comprised members of this council. Where you failed is you pulled out a portion of the plan and put it over there, and ! don't know if that's to appease the people here tonight but we're not appeased and we aren't just here for public safety issues. We are here because we are concerned by what we see in general. So you may have pulled the piece out that you think will make all of us go away but it's not going to make us go away. We need to see sound decisions being made by our council members. ! don't see them. There's absolutely no data to prove what you are going to do is more cost effective for the city or for me as a resident and taxpayer. And I'm disappointed and thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. And yes, we have contacted businesses. We have contacted friends, neighbors. A wide variety of people and not just talked about law enforcement but other parts of the organization also and they have contacted us, or ! can certainly say personally have contacted me to tell me that. And ! know that some of you will never agree with what we're doing or some of the decisions that are made and ! understand that but we have gone ahead and we do feel it's important to be making them now and we feel that we do have, we have thought about it. We have gathered information and we feel comfortable about the direction we're going. Thank you. Kenneth Block: Publish the information. If you collected it, publish it. Make it known. Mayor Mancino: Meeting is done and closed tonight. We've gotten through, not at 8:30 but we're a couple hours late. Thank you for coming and giving us your comments. Mayor Mancino adjourned the meeting at 10:15 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt Acting City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 67