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CC Minutes 1999 03 08CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION MARCH 8, 1999 Mayor Mancino called the work session to order at 5:45 p.m. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Senn, and Councilman Labatt. Councilman Engel arrived near the end of the work session. COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilwoman Jansen STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Planning Director; Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Todd Gerhardt, Acting City Manager; Anita Benson, City Engineer, and Don Ashworth, Economic Development Director. CONSENT AGENDA DISCUSSION: a. Award of Bids for Well House No. 8, Project 97-4A. Councilman Senn asked where the project funding was coming from and what the total dollar amount spent on Well No. 8. Anita Benson clarified the amount bonded and the amount of money spent to date. Mayor Mancino asked to have the sewer and water funds clarified. Councilman Labatt asked about the vendor who was awarded the bid. Anita Benson stated that they were a good and reputable vendor. b. Receive Feasibility Study and Set Public Hearin~ Date for Lake Drive West (Powers Boulevard to Audubon Road), Proiect 98-16. Anita Benson passed out a revised Appendix C to the Feasibility Study. There was discussion from Councilman Senn questioning assessing the cost to the city now instead of offsetting the cost and paying later. Mayor Mancino wanted staff to look at the carrying costs and TIF vs. Assessments. Acting Manager Gerhardt stated that staff would bring those options back for council's review. Councilman Senn wanted the alternatives brought to a future work session. If not, then review the alternatives at the public hearing. c. Receive Feasibility Study and Set Public Hearin~ Date for Stone Creek Drive (North of Coulter Boulevard), Proiect 98-15. Mayor Mancino asked if the project was 100% assessed. Anita Benson stated yes. d. Arboretum Business Park 3rd Addition, Steiner Development and Chaska Gateway Partners: Final Plat Approval, Approve Development Contract/PUD A~reement and Construction Plans and Specifications, Proiect 99-5, and Approve Amendment to Access A~reement. Kate Aanenson noted an amendment to the final plat, condition number 17, adding the phrase, consistent with the PUD Agreement. Anita Benson handed out changes made by the attorneys in the Development Contract/PUD Agreement in reference to Exhibit C. Amending the agreement to refer to the 3rd Addition only, the lot where Kwik Trip is to be located. Kate Aanenson updated the Council on the house moves from the Wrase property. Mayor Mancino asked for clarification regarding access to the Wrase property. City Council Work Session - March 8, 1999 e. Approval of Bills. Councilwoman Jansen sent a note asking about monthly statements for the accounts payable. Acting City Manager Gerhardt clarified the new format for the bills. Councilman Senn asked if it was possible to have a monthly income/expense statement. Acting City Manager Gerhardt asked for clarification regarding activity or department. Councilman Senn stated a monthly summary of budget, income, expenses by activity and department codes with monthly and year to date information. f. Approval of Minutes: No questions. Approve Easement for 1998 Bike Trail Proiect~ Nicholas Lucas. No questions. h. Accept Donations from Minnesota Valley Electric Trust, Meals on Wheels Pro~ram. Councilman Senn asked if the donation was the total cost. Kate Aanenson stated yes. There are no matching funds from the city. i. Accept Cash Donation from Chanhassen Athletic Association for the Purchase of Spectator Seatin~ at the Recreation Center. Mayor Mancino asked if the bleachers conformed to the new state regulations. Todd Hoffman said that they would. i. Resolution Authorizin~ Submittal of a Grant Application to Provide Accessible Entrance to the Chanhassen Library. Councilman Senn questioned reimbursement which Kate Aanenson clarified. 1. Authorize Advertisin~ for Bids~ Shore Drive Storm Sewer and Water Quality Proiect. Mayor Mancino questioned if there was enough money for this project. Kate Aanenson stated that there was. Councilman Labatt asked is the city entered into an agreement? Kate Aanenson stated that the city has maintained the boat ramp to help with erosion problems. m. Approval of Public Gatherin~ Permit for INT Water Ski Tournament~ July 10 & 11~ Lake Susan Park, Pam Mueller. Councilman Senn and Councilman Labatt asked if there were any resident complaints from last year's tournament. Todd Hoffman stated that no one showed up for the public hearing at the Park and Recreation Commission meeting, but stated that A1 Klingelhutz had complained about all the practicing that was done on Lake Susan last year. Councilman Engel stated that one weekend event was fine, but if they had asked for two events, he would not be in favor of that. The work session was adjourned at 6:30 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt Acting City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING MARCH 8, 1999 Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:35 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Labatt, Councilman Engel, and Councilman Senn COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilwoman Jansen STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Charles Folch, Anita Benson, Todd Gerhardt, Roger Knutson and Don Ashworth APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Mayor Mancino: I would like to give a public announcement and that is for a flyer that hopefully all the residents and businesses in Chanhassen received on either Saturday or maybe today from our City Engineer, Anita Benson and that is that we will be holding a public open house on new trunk highway 212 and the open house will be on March 17th at the Chanhassen Recreation Center from 3:00 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. Representatives from the various agencies, and that includes Carver County, Southwest Metro Transit and MnDOT will be available and have displays set up for informal interaction with residents from 3:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. A formal presentation will be made by MnDOT from 6:30 to 7:00 which will address the project background history and current status of the project as it relates to right-of-way acquisition, preliminary design, final design, construction and funding. After the formal presentation a public question and answer session will be held from 7:00 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. So please all those that care about and want to see what will be happening to 212, we hope to see you on March 17th. That is next Wednesday night. Thank you. CONSENT AGENDA: Mayor Mancino: Prior to going on, is there anyone here tonight that had a question or would like to make a remark on the consent agenda. Would like the council to pull it and has remarks on something separately. Okay, seeing none. Then may I please have a motion for the consent agenda. Or is there, I'm sorry. Is there any council member who would like anything on the consent agenda pulled separately? Seeing, hearing none then may I have a motion please. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: a. Resolution #99-16: Award of Bids for Well House No. 8, Project 97-4A. Resolution #99-17: Receive Feasibility Study and Set Public Hearing Date for Lake Drive West (Powers Boulevard to Audubon Road), Project 98-16. Chanhassen City Council Minutes - March 8, 1999 Resolution #99-18: Receive Feasibility Study and Set Public Hearing Date for Stone Creek Drive (North of Coulter Boulevard), Project 98-15. d. Arboretum Business Park 3rd Addition, Steiner Development and Chaska Gateway Partners: 1) Final Plan Approval as amended. Condition number 17, add the phrase, "same as PUD Agreement". 2) Approve Development Contract/PUD Agreement and Construction Plans and Specifications, Project 99-5, amended on page 1 of Exhibit C, permitted uses, strike attached PUD plan and insert plat of Arboretum Business Park 3rd Addition. 3) Approve Amendment to Access Agreement. e. Approval of Bills. City Council Work Session dated February 16, 1999 City Council Work Session dated February 22, 1999 City Council Meeting dated February 22, 1999 g. Approve Easement for 1998 Bike Trail Project, Nicholas Lucas. h. Accept Donation from Minnesota Valley Electric Trust, Meals on Wheels Program. Accept Cash Donation from Chanhassen Athletic Association for the Purchase of Spectator Seating at the Recreation Center. Resolution #99-19: Resolution Authorizing Submittal of a Grant Application to Provide Accessible Entrance to the Chanhassen Library. k. Designate Official Depository, 1999-2001. Resolution #99-20: Authorize Advertising for Bids, Shore Drive Storm Sewer and Water Quality Project. Approval of Public Gathering Permit for INT Water Ski Tournament, July 10 & 11, Lake Susan Park, Pam Mueller. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. PUBLIC HEARING: METES AND BOUNDS SUBDIVISION OF 3.7 ACRES (LOT 6, BLOCK 1, RICE LAKE MANOR) INTO TWO LOTS, 8500 TIGUA LANE, DAVID NICKOLAY. Cindy Kirchoff: This application seeks to subdivide one parcel into two parcels. The division does create a flag lot. This is the.., existing home on it. That is Parcel B. Parcel A is the newly created lot in-between the existing structure and Tigua Lane. Staff will require that the new parcel be connected to water and sewer as a part of the subdivision process. Staff does recommend approval of the metes and bounds subdivision with the conditions outlined in the staff report. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any questions for staff? Is the applicant here and would you like to address council? Please state your name and address David. Dave Nickolay: My name's Dave Nickolay. As you know live at 8500 Tigua Circle. I have nothing further to present. Staff and I have worked together and what you have before you is acceptable in all forms to me. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions for Mr. Nickolay from council members? Thank you. Is there anyone here tonight wishing to address the council on this? Okay, then let's bring it back to council. Any comments from council members? Then may I have a motion please. Councilman Senn: Move to approve. Mayor Mancino: I'll second that. Councilman Senn moved, Mayor Mancino seconded to approve the Metes and Bounds Subdivision #99-3, Rice Lake Manor Estates as shown on the plans dated received February 12, 1999, subject to the following conditions: 1. Tree protection fencing must be installed at grading limits. Prior to the issuance of a building permit for Parcel A a detailed grading, drainage, erosion control and tree removal plan shall be submitted to the city for review and approval. 3. The applicant shall be responsible for surface water management fees pursuant to city ordinance. 4. The applicant shall pay the city GIS fees in the amount of $45. The applicant shall have the option to install a public or private sanitary sewer service to Parcel A from the existing sewer line in Tigua Lane. If a public line is chosen, detailed construction plans and specifications shall be submitted to the city. The plans and specifications shall be prepared in accordance with the city's standard specifications and detail plates. The final construction plans shall be reviewed and approved by the City Council. The applicant will be required to enter into a development contract and supply the city with a financial escrow to guarantee the extension of utility improvements, street restoration and conditions of approval for the lot split. Parcel A will be subject to sanitary sewer and water hookup charges and Parcel B will be subject to water hookup charges pursuant to city ordinance. 7. The final certificate of survey shall be revised to include the following items: A. The finished floor and garage floor elevation of the existing house on Parcel B. B. Front, rear and side yard setbacks on existing home. This includes the lakeshore setback from Rice Marsh Lake. C. Driveway and driveway culverts and culvert inverts. D. Exact Sewer alignment for existing home. E. Spot elevations on Tigua Lane to determine driveway grades for the proposed house on Parcel A. F. Show proposed sewer and water services. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER AMENDMENT TO CHAPTER 10 OF CITY CODE CONCERNING THE SALE, CONSUMPTION, AND DISPLAY OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES, FIRST READING. Mayor Mancino: We're going to give Mr. Knutson a minute. Roger, we are on new business which would be consider amendment to Chapter 10 of City Code concerning the sale, consumption and display of alcoholic beverages, first reading. I'm assuming that this will go through. We will have two readings on this. Roger Knutson: That's the normal protocol unless you want to waive the second reading. Mayor Mancino: Okay. So this is just the first reading on this. Staff report please. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council members. For the past several months Karen Engelhardt, our office manager has been working closely with Roger Knutson and his office in modifying our current liquor ordinance. Staff has only received one comment from local businesses regarding this ordinance and Karen has documented their concern and no major changes in the ordinance have come because of that. With that staff and legal counsel will take any questions that the council has on that. There's been numerous changes in the document from our previous ordinance and I think Roger is best to try to answer any questions that you have on those. Mayor Mancino: Thank you very much Mr. Gerhardt. This is a lot more comprehensive than the existing one that we have. I'll start out with just a few questions. Roger, on page 3, in the upper paragraph. It's under types of licenses and it's section 10-19. On Sale Intoxicating Liquor License. 2(b). It says where the licensed premise is located in shopping center, the licensed premises may not permit live music or dancing. Do we have a concern there with the Chanhassen Dinner Theater at all? Would that come under on-sale intoxicating liquor license. Number one, would they need to get that? And number two, are they in a shopping center? And number three, I know that they have live music at the Dinner Theater. Roger Knutson: I certainly hope they do. Councilman Engel: I think the dancing is confined to the performers and not the participants. Councilman Senn: It hasn't always been that way. Mayor Mancino: Actually the one night I was there they did bring audience members up as part of the festivities. Councilman Senn: ... it had dancing and stuff. That's come and gone several times that I know of so. Mayor Mancino: So I would just like to make sure that we still allow the Chanhassen Dinner Theater to continue as they are and still meet our ordinance. Todd Gerhardt: So Mayor the question you're asking is the Chanhassen Dinner Theater considered a shopping center? Attached to. Councilman Senn: I don't know how you say that one isn't when, and say other ones are. Mayor Mancino: I don't know. That's why I'm asking legal counsel. Roger Knutson: That's a good question Mayor. I don't think I thought of it in terms of being a shopping center. But I think by definition it is so I think that should be amended. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. On that same page, on sale Sunday liquor licenses. So our present restaurants follow this right now as it's written? Pretty much? Roger Knutson: It's a 50 guest limitation. Todd Gerhardt: Which item again? Mayor Mancino: It's l(f). Roger Knutson: The only thing that's unique to this ordinance is the 50 guest limitation. I assume that's taken from your current ordinance. Mayor Mancino: Well and it says only to a hotel or restaurant, and it's 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 a.m. I would think they do. Roger Knutson: You can't have Sunday sales of liquor except in conjunction with the sale of food. So an exclusive bar wouldn't qualify. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Other questions? Councilman Senn, we'll go from this. Councilman Senn: Roger, flipping to Section 10.19 which is I think kind of where we started out. The on sale intoxicating liquor license. I thought. Mayor Mancino: Can you also give the page number when you do. Councilman Senn: It's on page 2. I thought we were going to tie that to food too. Roger Knutson: You certainly can. Councilman Senn: But I thought in an earlier draft that you and I talked about we had the food and liquor tied together. Roger Knutson: No liquor without food? Councilman Senn: Right. Roger Knutson: I don't recall that but that could very well be. It didn't get in here. That's not what they said. You can do that and some cities do. Councilman Senn: Okay. Well I would like to propose at least for discussion purposes, that we make that change in 10.19 basically requiring that food be served in conjunction with the liquor and we could discuss a percentage of sales, whatever is typical of ordinances. That they meet in relationship with food sales versus liquor sales, correct? Roger Knutson: It was typical. Councilman Senn: Has that changed now? Roger Knutson: Yeah. I don't think it's typical any more to my knowledge. I mean there used to be a lot of cities that did that and then there's, how are you going to know the answer without going through and auditing their books. You can do it and I was thinking of places like Bloomington used to have that. I don't know of any, I don't know if that's a common practice anymore because of the difficulty in determining whether they're doing what they're supposed to do. But you certainly can. Councilman Senn: I mean the only method I knew of was if you had a problem that was causing an issue you'd pull and audit and the audit would tell you. Roger Knutson: Yeah. You certainly could do that. Councilman Senn: Basically. Okay. In terms of the same section, sub (2). Had the same concern that Nancy did on the Dinner Theater. But secondly also, I have a little concern over the 150 seats. I mean I don't see it as a negative. I mean I don't see seats as being an issue. I mean to me if you want to have a small, little place you know where you can serve wine and beer and you don't have 150 seats, that doesn't bother me one way or the other. I mean as long as there's food involved, I mean I seem very comfortable with that myself. Roger Knutson: Just so we're clear, this isn't wine and beer. This is hard liquor. This provision. Councilman Senn: No, I understand. Okay. Mayor Mancino: Because I was going to say (c) under wine licenses. You only have to have 25 people. Roger Knutson: You could take out subparagraph 2. Same thing on the shopping center. Councilman Senn: Yeah, I think we have to amend as it relates to, I don't know. We have to look back to you and how you deal with the shopping center issue versus music and dancing. An issue in itself because I mean do you amend that by taking shopping center out or do you amend it by taking live music and dancing out? Roger Knutson: Yes. Councilman Senn: Either way right? Roger Knutson: Either way would work. Mayor Mancino: So Councilman Senn are you saying that you must have a minimum of 25 seats for dining versus 150 or are you trying to back that number down to 25? Councilman Senn: No, the 25 would be fine but I don't feel that the 150's a legitimate test one way or the other. I mean economically it may end up being that but that's not something we should be determining if somebody wants to have a quaint little place... Mayor Mancino: I mean I agree with you too. That would be the same as again if you look down that page under (c) where it says wine licenses. It says only to restaurants having facilities for seating at least 25 people. Councilman Senn: I'd like to apply the same standard up in 2(c) of 10-19. Roger Knutson: Got it. Councilman Senn: 3 also. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Senn: Okay? Mayor Mancino: How do Councilman Labatt, how do you feel about that? Making those two changes on 2(c) and 3 and Councilmember Engel? Councilman Engel: I have no problem with it. Councilman Labatt: Changing the (c) to 25 on both? Mayor Mancino: Yes. So that it would be 25 here and 25 here. Councilman Labatt: Yeah, I have no problem with that. Mayor Mancino: Okay. And let's go back to the very first remark, comment that you made Councilman Senn and that was under 10-19(a). On sale intoxicating liquor license. You would like to make sure that these be granted to hotels, clubs, restaurants and exclusive liquor stores or you would like to have the exclusive liquor stores out because they do not serve food? Councilman Senn: Well let's see. Definitely I mean what is exclusive liquor store? Roger Knutson: It just sells, it's a bar. Councilman Senn: It's a bar but it sells liquor only correct? Roger Knutson: No food. Councilman Senn: Okay. Yes. I'd like, I mean basically what I was talking about is striking that okay. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Senn: And then essentially providing that in 19(a), the on sale intoxicating liquor license shall be granted only to hotels, clubs and restaurants which serve food in conjunction with the liquor and then the question is what kind of a standard do we want to... if any. Which is, I was fishing back to, one of the reasons I tried to catch you this afternoon because I didn't know what people were using these days for standards. Roger Knutson: I can check around. None of the communities we represent have such a standard but I can check around and see what other folks are doing. Mayor Mancino: Okay. And do other council members feel comfortable with that? Not allowing any stand alone bar to sell intoxicating liquor without having food served also. Todd Gerhardt: I think you have to almost wait to see what the standard of food is defined as. Right now there could be one that's just bringing in pizzas or kind of the hot pizza machine or just a little grill or something like that. Can you give us some leeway of what you're looking for as a standard for food? Is that acceptable? Mayor Mancino: Well there's a little buffet, and I don't think they prepare food but isn't that at the Timber Lounge right now? They have food in their bar area which is again pretty small and very nice for people but it isn't like hot appetizers that they prepare there. It's more I want to say chips and salsa and yeah, cheese trays and munchies. Councilman Senn: Well they're the only borderline case we've got in town and there was a fair amount of discussion on that at the time that that was granted. And the special circumstances that pretty much surrounded that related more to it's, how would I say involvement with the convention facility and relating to the hotel which was really a special exception as to why, at least in the council's eyes we made an exception to approve a liquor.., only deal with what was light food or whatever that you mentioned because I think we were also told at the time that it would be like I say, in conjunction with the convention facility and there would be food and liquor... Councilman Engel: I think whatever we do we've got to be aware that at some point in the future we could probably have another hotel like this probably looking for the same type of arrangement so let's not get any language in here that would make it look like one's getting a pass and another's being denied the chance. That's the only warning I guess I'd give. Is let's use that as the low water mark so to say. Todd Gerhardt: So what they're doing today is the standard that you would like to see? Councilman Senn: Not for me. I mean because to me the standard there is beyond what they're doing. The standard is the fact that it's attached to a convention facility and a hotel and all that. That's the reason we approved that so I mean I don't really want to lose sight of that. I'd rather create a circumstance where you know, like any other ordinance we can have a mechanism in it maybe to provide for the exception but the exception would be a special exception taking in those types of circumstances rather than making it effectively allowable. Todd Gerhardt: The hotels with conference centers or meeting rooms? Councilman Engel: Boy, I don't know if I'm ready to go to, I'm just thinking hotels in general but I don't know yet. I mean this is the first time I've thought of it and Mark just brings it up. It's a good point but I don't want to put something in place here that you know puts us immediately at odds with the next one that comes before us based on a. Roger Knutson: Do you want to make it consistent with what you've allowed at the Timber Lounge, is what's it called? Todd Gerhardt: Timber Lounge. 10 Roger Knutson: Timber Lounge. Councilman Senn: ... exception here but I mean I don't know how, if you set that as the minimum standard, then effectively there is no minimum standard. Councilman Engel: Except that a hotel has to be attached. Councilman Senn: Understand. Roger Knutson: It'd have to be attached to a hotel. Councilman Engel: Attached to a hotel's kind of a standard. Councilman Senn: Well hotel and the convention center and the meeting rooms and that sort of thing. Mayor Mancino: It just can't be a stand alone premise. Structure. Councilman Senn: ... food involved but you know it's on a limited basis and was going to be catered in, etc. So you know again, I'm not trying to say we should even act on that tonight. I think it's more a standpoint that if Roger can go back and look at that issue and come back with some suggestions on it before the next reading or whatever. Roger Knutson: We'll give you some options. Councilman Senn: Let's see, next comment was down in 10-19, item fwhich goes back to the on sale Sunday liquor license. I'd like to change the 10:00 a.m. to noon. Mayor Mancino: Why? Councilman Senn: Well, most places I'm familiar with that's consistent with. On Sundays don't allow liquor served till noon. Now I'm sure you're going to find exceptions to everything but, and stuff. But most like the Sunday brunches and that sort of thing, my parents are big brunch.., usually most of them you can't order till. Roger Knutson: The legislature ifI recall correctly changed the statute a number of years ago. It used to say noon. Then the brunch crowd, what I'll call them, came out and they got them to change, put this in at 10:00. Councilman Senn: Oh, so it's changed overall then? Roger Knutson: You can be more restrictive on hours. Todd Gerhardt: Than the state. Roger Knutson: Yes. You can be more restrictive. Mayor Mancino: But sometimes they have, what is it? Champagne and orange juice, yeah for brunch. And you know along with your omelets at 10:00 so. 11 Todd Gerhardt: But the Mayor would never do that. I asked her that question a couple weeks ago. She went to brunch. Mayor Mancino: I personally don't have a problem with the 10:00 a.m. but I also understand noon so I don't know about other council members how you feel about that. Councilman Engel: I hadn't thought about that one. Councilman Labatt: ... I'm okay with the 10:00. Todd Gerhardt: I know Applebee's is doing a brunch now. They're open for breakfast on. Councilman Senn: I don't either but. Mayor Mancino: I don't either but. Councilman Labatt: ...like those Bloody Mary's though. Todd Gerhardt: Those college days it was much easier. Mayor Mancino: Those of us are getting old. Councilman Senn: I almost can't remember that far back... Mayor Mancino: Well why doesn't everybody think about it and we can certainly make that change next time. But good discussion Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Let's see here. I had one other. I remember at the time that we, Roger that we got into the controversy with the bowl and the fact that they hadn't paid taxes or whatever we said that we could not make their payment of taxes conditioned on their liquor license. And I was trying to remember if the reason we couldn't do that is the ordinance had been stated that way or there was some superceding law which didn't allow us to do that. Roger Knutson: It's called the bankruptcy code. Councilman Senn: Okay. So, well the bankruptcy but before the bankruptcy was filed I thought it was even an issue. Roger Knutson: No. Todd Gerhardt: We were going to do it and they said if you do it we're going to file bankruptcy. We did it. They filed bankruptcy. Councilman Senn: Okay. Alright, so we have that ability effectively, okay. I was trying to remember how that shook out and I couldn't remember. Okay. That was all I had. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Councilman Engel, any? Councilman Labatt? Councilman Labatt: No, I don't have any. I want to re-read this and... 12 Councilman Senn: I'd like to get this other stuff incorporated though. I'm sorry, I forgot that it seems almost. Councilman Labatt: Compliance checks? Councilman Senn: Compliance checks. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, I did too and those were a couple things that I talked with Roger about. Number one is, two things. One is having a couple compliance checks, twice a year. Kind of a secret shopper check. And Roger has some policies of Plymouth I think you said. Roger Knutson: Yeah. You certainly can put it in an ordinance but it isn't necessary. This is a matter of your police power and instructing your police department to do it. You don't need it in an ordinance. I mean you might decide that once a year, twice a year, whatever you decide, you tell the police department to do. Public safety to do and they do it. You don't need it in an ordinance. Plymouth has been very proactive on the compliance check issue. And they're doing it successfully. Or unsuccessfully in the fact that all the people are flunking. Councilman Labatt: Well you know I read the article a little bit ago and is there a portion in here, maybe I might have missed it, as far as for violations of that. Punitive. Mayor Mancino: They've got it in that matrix on page. Roger Knutson: Page 11 and 12. Or 12 and 13. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Mayor Mancino: On 13 it says number 3. Sale of alcoholic beverages to underaged person. The first time it's closure for three days. The second time, six days. The third time, 18 days. The fourth time, revocation of the liquor license. And then 4. Sale of alcoholic beverages to obviously intoxicated person. Boy, that would be an interesting compliance check. 3, 6, 18 and revocation of it after the fourth time. Boy I want to say revocation... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Mayor Mancino: So with that, do we need to make a motion for you Roger? Roger Knutson: Just approve the first reading. Mayor Mancino: Okay, we'll approve the first reading and then you'll come back with some of those options and changes. Thank you very much. Councilman Labatt: Just for clarification for me. So we approve the first reading, we've offered changes and corrections. Mayor Mancino: So it will come back for a second reading and we'll look over those options and decide which ones we want to put in here. Councilman Labatt: Okay. 13 Mayor Mancino: And if the second reading we still want to tweak it a little bit, we can. Councilman Labatt: We're not bound or locked here. Roger Knutson: At the next meeting I bring drafts or options back to you and you still are uncomfortable and want more time, you can take as long as you want. Table it to the next meeting.., changes you think is appropriate. Mayor Mancino: Table it to the next. Thank you. Oh, one last question Roger. Did the city of Plymouth when they were doing the compliance and etc, did they work with a couple of establishments and get their input from the restaurants or the? Roger Knutson: On the compliance checks? They told them, what they did is they told them all in writing, we are coming. We will be visiting you within a certain window of time. Let everyone know in your establishment we are coming. It wasn't, gotcha. Mayor Mancino: The reason why I'm asking is that I know that this was mailed out to every establishment and now if we're going to be changing it quite a bit, I would think they'd want to see it again. Todd Gerhardt: Roger stated that Plymouth doesn't have compliance checks in their ordinance. They did that as just a police action. My question to the council is, I think we should have something in here that the city will do periodic compliance checks, just so it's in the documents so they know that we can do that. Councilman Senn: Yeah, tell them up front. Todd Gerhardt: Yep. Councilman Senn: Like Roger says rather than say oops you know. Councilman Labatt: Make it a part of their fee schedule... Mayor Mancino: But again, I want to make sure that those institutions have the chance to read a new draft if it's going to contain new things like that so, thank you. Can I have a motion please? Councilman Senn: Move approval of the first reading. Councilman Labatt: Second. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve the first reading of the amendment to Chapter 10 of City Code Concerning the Sale, Consumption, and Display of Alcoholic Beverages. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Mancino: And we have nothing more on the agenda. Let's see, admin section. Any questions on Admin section. I thought it was interesting about the speed study Anita for Oxbow street study. It seemed that they, the speeds with the 20 mph limit posted and, let's see what was it. 30 and then 20 were so close. I was surprised at that. Do you want to give any more background on it and then maybe Councilmember Senn has some comments. 14 Anita Benson: Well I don't know if any council members have actually driven that area but it is located on a curve in a residential neighborhood that does not experience cut through traffic. So I guess in driving it myself I wasn't really surprised that there wasn't a speed, you know that we weren't seeing speeds in the 30's either before or afterwards because the comfort level, because of the geometrics of the roadway keep you to a minimum or maximum speed around 25. As far as for a comfort level. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn, did you have any questions on that? Councilman Senn: No questions. Just you have the, I mean I have the information. I've looked it and I've seen it. You know to me the results vary and they probably vary for a lot of different reasons but I don't think that that's a reason to recite the original issue. The original issue being let's start allowing or using speed advisory signs in neighborhoods that are concerned about speed limits. I still think we should do that. I think we should initiate a program to do that and I don't think that, you know I don't think the study answers those questions one way or the other. I mean people are going to do what they want to do one way or the other and you're not going to change that. But again in an effort to try to reduce speeds in the neighborhood, especially in the neighborhoods where there's concern, I don't see any harm as a policy of us allowing advisory signs to go up and to...aid in an effort to reduce the speed. Not to say it's a catch all. Not to say that we will but you know, but it could certainly aid.., really would like to proceed with that. As an issue or a program rather than just to... Mayor Mancino: I'm not sure I think one study is conclusive evidence but it certainly shows, I mean I was surprised that there was such a difference in the speed limit. The suggested posted was 20 and one was 30 and there wasn't much difference in what speed people were actually going. So I understand where you're coming from but again this is just one study and I don't know if we want to do a couple more surveys to go and change the posted speed. I haven't seen where it benefits. Where it shows any benefit. Councilman Senn: We're not saying, okay first place in most neighborhoods there isn't a posted speed. Okay. Mayor Mancino: What do you mean there isn't? Councilman Senn: There isn't a posted speed. We do not have posted speed signs in most of our neighborhoods. Okay. What we were talking about doing is rather than using a posted speed limit sign, what we talked about as a program was to use instead a yellow advisory sign. Use them for speed purposes. You know all I can do is use examples I know of. Okay in one neighborhood where they were able to get a speed sign up there, again you're not going to change everybody's habits. But I tell you what it was wonderful when the people in the neighborhood go to a couple of the people who were the abusers in the neighborhood and say come on now. Our kids are out here playing. You know blah, blah, blah. There's the sign. There's the speed now. Get your act together. You know whatever. Okay. With nothing there, with nothing whatever, it's kind of sometimes falls on deaf ears and goes kind of nowhere. And to me there is no harm in when a neighborhood comes in with that kind of a request, fulfilling the request by putting that kind of a sign up. I disagree with. I strongly disagree with the past philosophy around here which says don't put up a sign because now you've implied something and because you've implied something you're open for liability or something and I think that's hog wash. Okay. You know put it up as an advisory sign. It gives people another tool to basically deal with the problem. I think it's something we ought to... and we ought to deal. We don't need any more studies to do it. Let's just do it. Mayor Mancino: Okay, heard your point of view. Councilman Senn: My point of view. 15 Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you. Councilman Labatt. Councilman Labatt: These signs Mark, the yellow. I mean the only question is it gets down to enforcement. You know with the local streets, the neighborhood streets, 30 mph by statute so. Councilman Senn: That's why we're talking about the yellow advisory signs. Councilman Labatt: But a sign is a sign. I mean believe me I'm not, I mean I'm for slower speeds but a yellow sign you put up there, what good is it going to do when you go to the guy and you say, look the sign says this. Well that sign isn't enforceable. What good is it when it's not enforceable? Councilman Senn: To me it's just gives the neighborhood another tool to be self policing. Councilman Labatt: Well I realize that but when it comes down to the bottom line. Mayor Mancino: Because some of us don't know. So we'd go by them anyway, okay. Seriously. Seriously. Councilman Senn: The fact that we don't even have it 30 mph... Councilman Labatt: I know and on my road or one of my roads in my neighborhood, they fly down that road and, but you know. Mayor Mancino: Well I think it's something good to think about. I'm glad you put it in here. Councilman Labatt: I don't know. Mayor Mancino: Anyone in the audience like to come up and give their point of view from what we were just discussing? Bob Ayotte: No, I'm saving myself. Mayor Mancino: Oh, you're saving yourself, okay. Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: I have no problem with those signs. If the neighbors come to you and they want one, it gives them one thing. I think what Mark's looking for is this is, it gives credence to somebody who maybe wants to apply peer pressure. The neighborhood needs something to point to, otherwise they're just pointing to their feelings. That they may be going too fast. If you give them something to we're all adhering to this. Councilman Senn: I just.., requirement right? Roger Knutson: By definition. Councilman Senn: By definition, right. Yet I still go drive through Minnetonka every day and drive on 25 mph posted roads. Councilman Labatt: I see them too. 16 Mayor Mancino: I do too and I see them in Edina. Councilman Senn: ... can't do that so I mean we're trying to find a mechanism where we can do it. Mayor Mancino: We don't need to keep on that part. Yes Sherry, come on up and state your name and address. Sherry Ayotte: Sherry Ayotte, 6213 Cascade Pass, Chanhassen and yes, I live in the Near Mountain area which is next to Oxbow Bend and you must post the 20 mph. We went door to door with some teenagers and bottom line, you're right. They say it's 30 mph. I can go 30 mph and they will go exactly 30 mph. Whether it's, there's little ones out or not and you know it's way too fast in that area as they come around the comers. Mayor Mancino: But we can't go lower than 30. You can't post it lower than 30 unless you know there's a hazardous curve or something like that. Are there any reasons, because I've seen white 25 mph speed limit signs. Anita Benson: I hope you haven't. Mayor Mancino: Not in Chanhassen. Anita Benson: Actually you have in Chanhassen on Pleasant View Road there was a special commissioners order due to the geometrics on the roadway and the conditions on that roadway. There was a special commissioners order to reduce that to 25 mph. Sherry Ayotte: You've got the two bus stops right there. Mayor Mancino: But would there be, do you see any harm in maybe a neighborhood that wanted to do the yellow advisory and it actually works in that neighborhood because you don't have kids saying I know that. Sherry Ayotte: They're going to in a neighborhood with teenagers. Mayor Mancino: It won't in yours. Thank you. Appreciate your comments. Roger. Roger Knutson: I was going to say there are some limited circumstances where you can go to 25 mph on short segment streets. It's very limited. Councilman Labatt: How short is short? Roger Knutson: It's in the statute. I can't. Councilman Labatt: Would Oxbow Bend be short? Councilman Senn: If I remember right that's really a. Councilman Engel: Especially cul-de-sacs. Councilman Senn: Yeah I mean, but I mean really short cul-de-sacs. Like you know the kind you mm in and before you've even gone a block you're at the end of the cul-de-sac. You know the whole intention here of looking at the yellow advisory ones was, there's a segment of the population you're never going to 17 reach. And the one who wants to know the statute and wants to go 30 mph and...you're not going to solve that okay but you know I think 80% or more of the people who are going to see that and respect it and understand there's a reason for it and make them think at least about why it is or why it isn't and so I think... Councilman Labatt: Well what about doing like a pilot program? I mean just trying a couple different spots. Put them up for 3-4 months. Councilman Senn: Well that's what this one study was for but. Councilman Labatt: I'd like to see the summertime when it's nicer out and. Mayor Mancino: I mean how many areas do you think that we would have that would request it anyway? Councilman Senn: I was going to say in the 6 years that I've sat on the council there's been, I can think of at least over a dozen neighborhoods that have come and requested and I don't know how many we've ever heard of. I mean that's ones I got calls on. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: I can easily see, I've driven through Longacres before too. I can easily see that baby being a thru street in that place. I can see them whipping through there because I think I'm guilty of it myself when I do go through there. Lake Susan Hills Drive is another one. Kind of thru road into Lake Susan Hills if you go down there. Councilman Labatt: Between Powers and Arboretum? Councilman Engel: Yeah. I mean it's just. What happens in some of those subs like these new divisions like we live in. You get one road that gets sort of the reputation as one that brings everybody in and out and it tend to get up to speed there. Mayor Mancino: Well what I'd like to do is, I mean you know just to do this all or nothing. Anita, do you have some suggestions? Anita Benson: Yes, if there's something I could add Mayor Mancino, members of the Council. There is a perception out there that signs can influence driver behavior. And that perception in some cases is accurate. In some cases it's not. This is one speed study. Did the results of this surprise me? Absolutely not. There are many speed studies out there that the federal Department of Transportation, or FHWA and MnDOT does have a manual on uniform traffic control devices on their use and there have been studies on stop signs. On advisory signs. On speed limit signs and not just one or two studies in selected areas. And that is what we have used as a policy for looking at whether a sign is warranted or not in a certain situation. Putting up an advisory speed sign, will it slow some people? Possibly. Will it have no influence on others? Absolutely. But what you could end up doing is creating a false sense of security for the parents that live along that road that I have an advisory speed limit sign, 25 mph. It's safe for my children to play closer to the road. So there are negatives and one of those that is a big one is creating a disrespect for signs. Because there are a large number of people out there that know what an advisory sign is and you put an advisory sign somewhere that it is not warranted, it will be ignored. The same thing happens with stop signs. I'm sure that probably every one of us here is guilty through, going through a stop sign that we know is not warranted. Maybe placed at a T intersection in a residential neighborhood where it's not warranted. I'll readily admit that I have done that. We really do have to be careful that we don't create a 18 disrespect for all traffic signs. I guess I would suggest that we would add this as a work session item and I can present some of this information to you to give you an opportunity to become educated before making any decisions on investing in signage like this that isn't warranted. Mayor Mancino: Okay. The other thing that would be helpful for me in a work session is, I know that it's a concern of Sheriff Olson's who has said that this is a nationwide phenomena. It is just not here in Chanhassen. Just not here in the Twin Cities. That it's a nationwide phenomena of people speeding and going too fast in neighborhoods. So I think that he had some ideas of how to work with neighborhoods in that, and that might be worth our while to have him come for a work session and talk about it too. Anita Benson: Okay. Mayor Mancino: So if council would be okay with that. To put this on a work session item and get a little more information and talk to our sheriff. Councilman Labatt: Which work session? Mayor Mancino: We don't know yet but we'll look through it. Councilman Labatt: I just don't want it pushed off though too late. Mayor Mancino: No. Any other things? Councilman Labatt: I just wanted to comment on the Sheriff's services office. ISO... inspections division. And the vacancy created by Mr. Kirchman leaving. Mayor Mancino: Mr. Terrell is. Councilman Labatt: Mr. Terrell is now the interim but in the arena of a three, on a 1 to 10 scale which is higher than average. Mayor Mancino: No, it's right up there. Councilman Labatt: Very nice. I just wanted to make sure that we don't lose a standard that we've just achieved here by this rating.., vacancy will be filled or somehow that we could maintain this for our sheriff. Mayor Mancino: Alright. Meeting is closed. Thank you for coming tonight. Was there someone else here who wanted to speak? Terry Maglich: I'm sorry, thanks for allowing me to talk for a second here. I appreciate it. I got tied up. The weather's really bad and I'm sure you all want to go home too. But my name is Terry Maglich. I own MGM Liquor in Chanhassen here and I know you've already dealt with the ordinance issues. There's a couple of points I'd like to make if you could allow me a few minutes. Mayor Mancino: Sure. Terry Maglich: To talk about some of the things that bother us. First, without getting really winded. Under the section of penalties. If there is a compliance check, and I understand that the city, as most cities and state, we're all trying to get to a 100% compliance, zero tolerance. That's our issue. We work very aggressively with the State. MGM does. We have a training policy and a very strict guidelines that we 19 abide by to make certain that our employees understand it but human nature and human error enters into this situation and there can be and probably will be some failures. I tried to get other licensees to come tonight and talk and just allow we as business people in your community to tell you some of the problems we have and see if there can't be some understanding. The big issue would be of course if it is a compliance issue and we fail, not an intentional sale or a deliberate sale or anything of that nature. Hopefully it's human error that the first penalty is a three day closing. You have three businesses that sell in beverage alcohol, and I'm talking about off sale now. We're not in the on sale business. There are three stores in the city of Chanhassen. I know the people in all three establishments as I'm sure you folks do. I don't think any one of the business would intentionally and deliberately sell beverage alcohol but in the event that happens, the first penalty is a three day closing of the business. That obviously is a very, very serious and very stiff penalty. Closing any business for any period of time, as difficult as business is today, is a stiff penalty. I understand there has to be some type of penalty issued to deal with and certainly on a repeated basis maybe the penalty could be stepped up but until we all work together and hopefully the city along with the business owners are working towards the same goal, which is 100% compliance. If there's a habitual problem, I would agree that we probably have to do something in a penalty, in a stiff penalty but I'm asking for some consideration on the first or second, specifically in the area of compliance checks for some consideration. Closing the business is very, very difficult. Not only on the business itself but the employees. Our employees are all local people. Closing the business is very difficult. And I'd ask for your consideration in that area. The second area that I have, I talked to the city attorney about this. I called to make certain I understood what the ordinance is and I don't mean to quote the law here. I'm not trying to but my business laymen's interpretation of the ordinance specifically dealing with deliveries. Again you have three businesses, and potentially a fourth if someone else decides to open in the city of Chanhassen. We understand, or I, MGM understands the seriousness of 100% compliance but we view the way this ordinance is written, that there's a gaping hole and it would be impossible for you to accomplish as a city 100% compliance. And that gaping hole is that the ordinance is specific that only businesses in the city of Chanhassen can deliver beverage alcohol. We're subjected to the controls that the city is putting on us and if there is a compliance failure or sale of beverage alcohol to minors, or underaged people. Not minors. Underaged, under 21, we're subjected to a penalty stage. If anybody drives into the city of Chanhassen, it's our feeling, it's MGM's feeling that the playing field should be equal. It's illegal to deliver beverage alcohol into Chanhassen as it states in the ordinance. If they drive into the city and there was a recent, I don't know if solicited is the word but WCCO and we have the tape and have, I've viewed it at the State level. I'm on the State Board. Minnesota Beverage License Association. Actually my brother is. I'm active but he's on the State Board. And WCCO did a compliance issue themselves and they randomly called 20 stores that deliver and had them cross city lines and whatever and it was unbelievable and I won't mention the name of some of the bigger operations but in two instances a 14 year old girl and a 17 year old, under age person were handed beverage alcohol. And the issue at the State, and we're trying to deal with this at the State level, is you lose control at the point of delivery. A delivery person goes out and the motivation was money. WCCO used a 20 dollar bill for an $8.00 delivery. Huge tip. It was 8:00 at night. Driver drove up to a hotel room. There was a 14 year old girl in the hotel room. A sting. Compliance. She handed a 20 dollar bill to the delivery person. He looks at the 20 dollar bill, leaves a six pack of beer, or 12 pack of beer, whatever. But the motivation was money and it's a very easy temptation. I'm asking that the city understand that if we're, we the licensees are expected and have to abide by the law in your new ordinances, then this hole that's wide open, if somebody drives in here from Timbuktu and decides to drop off at the hotel over here or to some underaged drinking party, that the city should take action to attempt compliance checks randomly of people that deliver beverage alcohol. And that would at least then send a message as you're trying to do with us I believe, that you're not going to tolerate any abuse or breaking of the laws or ordinance as it relates to beverage alcohol. I don't know if I'm making any sense but I'm attempting to lay out. 2O Mayor Mancino: Let me make sure I understand. So that not only do we have compliance checks with at the store, the place where you come to buy the liquor, but also when the liquor is delivered to a home. That you want that compliance check too. Terry Maglich: Not only, Madam Mayor, not only compliance checks by we as the licensees in your community, but randomly you can pick out a couple of stores that I can guarantee you will drive in here and don't give a hoot about what your ordinance is. They'll go back to Timbuktu where they're coming from and count their profit. That's all there is to it. And compliance checks, our argument at the State level is that, we're going to make it 100%, zero tolerance, then you can't leave any open hole and that's an open hole. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Terry Maglich: Does anybody have any questions? I really appreciate giving me the time. I'm sorry I delayed getting, or I was slow getting here. Mayor Mancino: That's fine. Any council member have a question? Terry Maglich: Any questions? Mayor Mancino: Good point. Councilman Labatt? Councilman Labatt: No. I mean everything's a good point but I just. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Terry Maglich: Thank you. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, this item will be on for our next meeting on the 22nd. This was the first reading tonight so there will be a second reading on for the, I believe it's the 22nd. Mayor Mancino: Did you hear that? This will be on we think, we'll check and get back to you for certain, on the City Council meeting on March 22nd. We've had a first reading. We'll have a second reading and if we need to we'll have a third. Thank you very much. Todd Gerhardt: And a revised ordinance will be mailed out to all. Mayor Mancino: And a revised ordinance from some of the changes we wanted to make tonight will be given to you prior to that. Thank you. Any other comments on just this? Bob Ayotte: I wanted to just, I want to know if you had the... Mayor Mancino: Yes, we've already gone through and have had visitor presentation and everything Bob. Did you have any questions on this? Did you have any comments on the alcoholic beverage? Okay. Thank you. Mayor Mancino adjourned the City Council meeting at 7:40 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt Acting City Manager 21 Prepared by Nann Opheim 22