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1h Approve Park MinutesCHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING FEBRUARY 23, 1999 Chairwoman Lash called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Fred Berg, Rod Franks, Ron Roeser and Mike Howe MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Manders and Dave Moes STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Name Address Mark Undestad Frank Scott Joe Mueller Nancy Mancino Linda Jansen 8800 Sunset Trail CAA 1951 Waterford Mayor Councilwoman APPROVAL OF AGENDA: The agenda was approved with an amendment moving item 3 before item 2, and Chairwoman Lash added under Council presentations the three options for budget transfers that was presented to the City Council. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Frank Scott: Hi, I'm Frank Scott with the Chanhassen Athletic Association. What I wanted to bring you up to date on with our field requests this year we're asking for the use of the concession stands at Bluff Creek and at Lake Ann. Most every night that We have activities going on over there we're going to try to use this as a fund raiser. We've been inundated with fund raisers, but most of them have to do with kids going out and knocking on doors or calling grandmother to buy some steaks or something and we decided we don't want to do that so. We're hoping we can do a fund raiser using volunteer, adult volunteers and make some money so we can do other things like the bleachers or the pitching machines so we're asking for to use the concession stand. We're going to do only very simple things like Coke and packaged things. Not cooking anything to start off with. Ice creams. So all we've got to do is open it up, have a freezer in there. We won't leave any money in the one at Lake Ann overnight. I don't know if we will at Bluff Creek. I don't think we will there either but we probably won't leave any food at Lake Ann. We'll put a sign on the door there's nothing in here to open the door for. We've taken it all home so. At Bluff Creek we may leave, we may put a refrigerator and freezer in there and leave the stuff overnight until we start having trouble. The service is for two reasons. One, Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 we have baseball games as early as 6:00 at night and a lot of people coming to them haven't had anything to eat yet so we'll give them something... The CAA keeps two different accounts. One, actually in two different places. We keep one at Chanhassen Bank and that's the fees and that goes, what we want to do is break even so when we charge a fee we deduct what it costs us for equipment and umpires and things like that and we try to break even every year so we keep that separate. Then for sponsor things and fund raisers, what we do for scoreboards, we keep in a separate account so this would go in a separate account. We'll build it up so we can do some extra things. That's about all I have to say. Is there any questions on what we're asking for? Lash: You're talking about that funky little building. Frank Scott: Right on the top of the hill by, between. Lash: And the picnic shelter little building at Bluff Creek? That one? Frank Scott: Yes. In the warming house would be the place. And both of those, well the one at Bluff Creek locks up real good but I will fix it so when the people leave, if we could use that back door that locks behind them so when the people from the concession stand leave they just close the door which locks and then walk out that door which locks so we won't have to worry about having keys except to open in the evening so. Lash: And you're talking about providing your own refrigerator or freezer? Frank Scott: Yes. Lash: Is there adequate space... Frank Scott: The one, a little crowded up at Lake Ann but we wouldn't put a freezer up there. We'd probably put a refrigerator to keep the stuff cool while we're working but we wouldn't leave stuff over night so we wouldn't have to have a freezer up there. So that should work out pretty good. Lash: We did that years ago. I remember I volunteered for that and candy was a huge...and chips. Bags of chips. Frank Scott: Yeah, they haven't done it now for 3 or 4 years and we're actually having people ask us how come we don't have one which is interesting. But it's all going to be run by volunteers so it may not last a whole year but we're going to give it a shot for whatever it's worth. Berg: My only question would be liability if somebody does break in and damage the building. Frank Scott: That I guess we'd have to work out what that would be. Berg: Yeah, that'd be my question. 2 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Frank Scott: Yeah, we'll get the licenses and whatever we might need for selling package goods. We won't go into the cooking stuff if it takes a health, Department of Health thing but, so we'll get whatever licenses we need. We're buying insurance this year for the whole league and I could ask him what that would mean if somebody were to break in. I suppose a thousand dollars or something, I don't know what, how badly can they damage that? Hoffman: They could do a lot of damage at one of the buildings at Bluff Creek especially that building... However when we think about it, these facilities were constructed with the intention of having those services provided there and I think we are fortunate that the CAA is now willing to take them on and go ahead and provide service. An individual breaking into the building at the recreation center for whatever reason could cause thousands upon thousands of dollars of damage. Our insurance would cover that and you could look to the CAA also for their insurance to cover it. Frank Scott: As a little bonus, we would have a large first aid kit in there rather than a bunch of little small ones for each team. We could have a big one in there in case we needed something of that size. And we can open and close the restrooms like at Bluff Creek. They lock them up right after the games so we could open it when we open the concession stand and lock them so that would give, rather than having somebody else have to figure out how to do that. Lash: So who would have the key? Frank Scott: That would be, the key would, we would have to give it to whoever was working that night and then they would leave it there and my plan would be to come by and pick up the cash and things by 10:00 at night and to take the key away and to get it to the next person in line. And this way when they walked out that back door they don't have to have a key. They can just leave it sitting on the table in there so. All those little details have got to be worked out but I think they can be done without too much problem. You got any other questions? Franks: ...is there any type of a user fee that's incurred for... Ruegemer: We had, Frank and I have discussed that in my office and we can either do some kind of a percentage base or some type of a flat to that like a monthly type of a fee .... take a look at you know maybe a months of, take a look at the electricity usage and that type of thing and other types of adminiStrative costs that could be associated with administering this type of program. CAA is going to obviously coordinate the program but there will be some type of administration on behalf of the city that we would need to...the costs from. So we'll take a look at that and we can bring that back in March as a commission item and we'll have more of those type of issues resolved in some type of a memo form. Frank Scott: And most of the money we make in these fund raisers will end up going back, I think it's 50/50 anyway because they mostly are things for our programs on the fields or in the... 3 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Lash: Okay. Well Frank this will be tabled until our next agenda and then we'll have a few more details. Frank Scott: While I'm up here, have you got any questions on the bleacher thing because he's going to cover it later but. Lash: Yeah, I had one question on that. Just because this is such a hot item right now in the news and I don't know exterior bleachers instead of the inside bleachers but and I know there's talk of the safety of you know the size of the steps and kids falling and these aren't, how tall are these? Frank Scott: I understand that they're only 30 inches. Lash: High? Or what do you mean? Hoffrnan: High. Maximum 30 inches high. Frank Scott: The top one is 30 inches off the ground. Hoffman: Yeah, they meet all the UBC codes and all safety requirements. We've been buying these for a number of years. For a period of time we purchased five row bleachers with no safety railing or netting and then codes changed and you had to go to a safety rail. Then the codes changed again and you had to go to a safety netting. Well you invested just as much money in the safety items on there that you did on the bleachers so we went away from five row and went to three row bleachers. They're also very portable... Berg: Those are big enough to meet your needs? Frank Scott: Yes. They would hold 30 people. Is that wharfs punched in there? Seems to me that's the, that's what we're talking about. 21 footers... Hoffrnan: 30 or 42 people. 30 for the 15 footers and 42 for the... Frank Scott: So with two of them there would be 60 people. That would certainly meet our needs. Thank you. Lash: Okay, thanks Frank. We'll move on. Are there any other visitor presentations? Okay, then we'll move on and Councilwoman Jansen is here to discuss with us our park and rec budget from the council perspective. COUNCILWOMAN LINDA JANSEN, 1999 BUDGET. Councilwoman Jansen: Madam Chair and councilmen, thank you for having me. Commissioners. Thanks for having me here tonight. The Mayor's here as well. We basically wanted to really have a conversation with you as to any philosophy changes that may have been 4 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 used in the course of our running our budget numbers. Came to my attention as we were doing some of our committee phone calls around to get some feedback as to you know some realignments we had considered and since decided not to do within your own functions realizing the importance of what you do and what that part of your responsibility means to the commission. It was more a looking at simplifying things for the community. Is people coming in. Maybe one less step in the process. And of course not really coming at it with the perspective that we've got our experts here who are looking out for those trails and looking out for the neighborhood parks in fact can probably expedite it even more so than just eliminating a step. The Planning Commission would have you know obviously a learning curve to get, that here you definitely have the big picture. So setting that aside, it was from that whole conversation, speaking with Jan, that it was brought to my attention that we had maybe upset things a little bit in the process of running our budget numbers. So I had spent some time going through the methodology that we had used and I thought that maybe to share it with all of you would be helpful. You're unique in that you're the only commission that really does have an interest in the whole budgeting process. That there is a piece of it that you're involved with and frankly because you are unique in that way, it's not as if it was at the forefront of our discussions as we were looking at all of the numbers. So though I realize you don't typically or you don't have the need to be as conscious of the general fund, I did bring those numbers with me. Not to belabor them but it was more our addressing the general fund that then trickled down to having a negative affect for yourselves this was then the impact that we had on fund 410 as we were making our adjustments. So I thought I'd share those numbers with you so you can see really where we came from and how we got there. The far left I'm actually showing you 1998 as a comparison point that we started from. Lash: Which side are you starting out on? Councilwoman Jansen: Left side. Actual 1998. Lash: No I mean front or the back? The column one. Councilwoman Jansen: Sorry. Yes, yes, the grid. There you go. So noting within the actuals and that total general fund number, the way that the budget addressed between council and management is more to set the tone for what it is we're trying to accomplish, which virtually what we were hoping to do is stay as close as possible to that 1998 expenditure number. With the intention of not raising property taxes because as everyone within the community is so conscious, we are the number three city within the metropolitan area, and that's totally. City taxes we are number 20 of 108 communities so being sensitive to that, we were trying to really go about this efficiently. The first proposal that came from us, the 11/25/98 proposal that we were initially presented was a 25% increase in general fund spending. That reflected a deficit of almost $600,000.00. $577,000.00. That with a property tax suggested at 15% which would have been the maximum levy amount. We thought we would not be doing what the community had charged us with if in fact we went about raising our taxes the 15%. So we did have staff go back and readdress the numbers. That's the column with the 12/18 revised. The total coming in is a 13% increase in the expenditures, still with the 15% property taxes but by then we've eliminated the deficit. We then tackled the numbers and tried to get them a little closer to flat. We came up 5 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 with 8%. In trying to accomplish this we did end up going through each of the individual departmental projects. Staff came back. Had all the rationale for being at those increases initially and we could certainly appreciate their positions, and probably the piece of the puzzle that was missing was the big picture. The management overall direction of trying to get the number down to where council's direction had been. And you can see the parks and rec number. The initial proposal would have been for a 50% increase within the general fund in comparison to the other departments. Without going through all of them. The revised was a 38% increase. In having an appreciation for the necessity of all of the requests that staff was making for the parks and rec department. Realizing we've had the expansion of the parks. We've had the expansion of the trails. It wasn't planned into the numbers. It just, it was an above and beyond that in this sort of a fiscal environment we didn't feel we could .just layer that right on top and send that out to the taxpayers in their property taxes. So by the time we got to the final, with all the justifications around the requests, fund 410 ended up having some of those items shifted into it that we certainly understood the rationale behind keeping them but we couldn't raise the bar if you would within the general fund spending. That's the base line and to raise that so aggressively after it's been raised year after year, we would have been the number one city you know by far this year. Mayor Mancino addressed the commission which was not picked up on tape. Councilwoman Jansen: It's the first year that we've done the activity based budgeting and the intention of that change to the whole process was so that we can take a look at the different services and the cost of services. Cost of activities and focus in better on where the dollars'are being spent. In that it is the first year that it's being done, we don't have a comparison year yet to actually be able to say you know the last year number compared to the this year number, some of these things are just shots in the dark that staff is having to take to say, well I think we spend this much time at this activity. So this year's really a benchmark year for us. For staff to be able to be setting these numbers and be able to look at them and see the efficiencies or you know challenge the inefficiencies as far as where things are actually being spent. So we're tracking activities. In an effort to maybe better synchronize all of our plamfing, the 2000 budget is already on our work session schedule as a council for August. So we will be starting earlier setting you know the limits and doing the projects as early as we can so that we can sit down in more of a team effort to come closer to the numbers so we are presenting a reasonable request out to the community as we're setting the property taxes. Berg: ~Question. Or just a clarification. This revised, final revision that the council did on the budget, that is based on activity based budgeting? That's what you used? Councilwoman Jansen: Yes. Berg: Do you have somewhere that we could see what you used? What your baseline data is for activity based budgeting so I can see what value you put on a trail or a park or. Councilwoman Jansen: We actually didn't set those ourselves. That came from staff up and we could certainly give you the detail sheets. 6 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Berg: I'd like to see those. Councilwoman Jansen: Sure. Mayor Mancino: Yeah there's no question that...from the fire department which asked for a 42% increase... Berg: Then one other question, just to clear up in my own mind what all this is doing. Was it staff or was it the council that decided we were going to use activity based budgeting in the first place? Mayor Mancino: From the council's direction. Berg: Okay. So the council directed staff to, I'm ignorant in this, to prorate where they wanted, where they thought the priorities should be. It wasn't staff coming in saying we think that we should be doing activity based budgeting? Okay, I just want to make sure I knew where it started from. Mayor Mancino: ...some way that when we did come up with the strategic...those values could be put into the budget... Number two, to facilitate cost measurement for each activity or service the city provides or wants to provide...streamline the city council's decision making process. Five, to gauge the appropriate...city council and staff tools.., stakeholders regarding service level costs... Seven, to give city council... Eight, to give us an idea of where our time and resources are being...so at the very beginning of this process back in... Councilwoman Jansen: And it's interesting, a lot of communities use this type of a budgeting process. As we were in fact interviewing the city candidates, city manager candidates, we requested copies of their financial plans and their budgets just to get an idea of the level of information that they're accustomed to seeing and it was amazing how detailed some of those budgets are. So you truly could, as a department head, see where you're spending all of the funds within your budget. And look for those deficiencies and comparisons even to other communities as to you know are we putting enough funds into trails? Is our maintenance at the level that it should be and not even to say that it's just to cut things, we also can see where we're lacking. Berg: So is activity based budgeting based on where the money has been spent in the past or is it based on an estimate of how much the community is using a particular service of this city? Councilwoman Jansen: Staff was asked to work within their current activities to delineate that out as to where right now we're spending the money because we needed a bench line. A place to start. And it's really only the professionals that can tell us right now. Berg: So no where does activity based budgeting mean we're looking at how often something is being used in determining how much money we're going to spend on it? 7 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: This was mainly to establish what is each of the activities costing us currently, because we don't have anything... Mayor Mancino: ...roads we use. How many trucks we actually use. How many people...so that you know in six years when we add more...we can look ahead and forecast, we need to add .another truck right now or we need to add another...so that we can do some forecasting. Because the other thing that we found out as we looked...city manager process and looked at the budgets, most other cities our size and smaller...their budget at least 3 to 5 years. We don't do that. We budget for the year and there is no forecasting. There is no question that other cities are doing...at least to 2002 and some are looking out to 2004...1 mean after all, we have our comprehensive plan. We know what the population is...average growth. We know how we're going to add sewer. We know how we're going to add water. We know how we're going to do roads. That is what the Metropolitan Council asks us to do so we should be doing some projections and saying in the year 2001 as we add this infrastructure, we're going to as a city need to be adding this type of equipment, this type of labor, etc, so we can be prepared... Berg: So it is based on costs? Not some projection of how much something is going to get used? Mayor Mancino: Right now as part of this, the whole program based budgeting is in time and payroll. I mean the payroll...change as far as when a staff person...through cost of what it is... staff member is based on. Councilwoman Jansen: It's a monumental project. ! mean they've put a brand new computer system in and they're bringing in an intern specifically for all the data entry that we need to get up to speed on. Mayor Mancino: Without making it too complex so that we can...to do some broad based activities that we...and it is something that our...and I think the manager, Don Ashworth that he wanted to get, take us to that level. And again, tell you that other cities are certainly... Councilwoman Jansen: So we're in a transition but we haven't, it's not as if we looked at parks and rec and said, eh. You know we're going to throw this percent at it. I mean it wasn't that at all, if I'm kind of hearing what you're saying. It wasn't the council sitting and saying, you know this is the importance that we're putting on each of these and if that were the case, that's where I kept coming back to the total number and the percent increase within parks and rec compared to what we had to push down in the other departments in order to be able to support that. We saw the significance of it. The one thing that we did do that negatively impacted you was that as we were trying to preserve all of the justifications behind the items, we did suggest that we couldn't keep those within the general fund so we did suggest to shift over to 410. And you know at this point some of the considerations are being given...start of the evening for the overages in the costs on City Center Park and Bandimere. That maybe we pull back out some of those more maintenance type items that maybe we can delay for a year or two but initially going through the whole budgeting process there were great justifications for we need those now. 8 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Mayor Mancino: We're always trying to... Lash: Okay, this is where I'm confused. I was under the impression that our 410 budget dollars come from development. So we were talking about our 410 budget, which does not come from the general fund. That comes from park and trail fees. So when we submitted what we worked on. This is different than what Todd was looking at as far as maintenance items and you know we need a lawnmower and all those kinds of things. The piece that we worked on was 410. We were given a projection. These are the dollars we're projecting will be coming in in the next year based on... We took that number. We prioritized projects that we wanted to do that would stay within that number. We sent that to the council. Now what Todd has to factor in is a whole different piece that really we are not involved in. Correct? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: So when our 410 budget comes back to us in a foreign state from what we sent to you, there's a huge gap in communication. We felt like we put a lot of time and energy into meeting and keeping our goals within the allotted amount of money that we were told was projected for us. If there's a lot of other maintenance kinds of things that are going on that we know have to be done but don't come out of that budget, you understand where our confusion came in? Councilwoman Jansen: Sure. Lash: I mean we felt like we did what we were supposed to. Councilwoman Jansen: You have a firm line drawn between the two sources of funds. Lash: Right. Berg: Correct. Councilwoman Jansen: And as we were going through the budgeting process, it's all parks and rec to us. And I don't mean to, and I'm not down playing it. You know me. I'm not down playing it. But so in trying to preserve the integrity of all of the projects that had been presented to us, we, and frankly I didn't realize the effort that this commission put into fund 410. I had no idea that that was something that you worked on. Again, you know I started off by saying that you're different from all of the other commissions. You're the only one that actually works on a budget. So as we were going through the numbers, it never occurred and never came up to actually you know contact you as to what was going on. And what the considerations were and you know for that, I've certainly learned from this experience and would certainly have kept you in the loop but realizing again that we're talking about the big picture of the whole parks and rec and what we're trying to accomplish in the community, I realize that you're looking down the road as far as you know also needing to protect future trails, future needs of the parks. It's not as if we're going to let those things fall. It's not that we have set a new policy. 9 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Franks: This is the piece that concerns me and I don't know really how this all fits in. I can certainly understand the pressure. That makes sense. I would have hoped that we would have all have understood where the money comes from and who's responsible for what. But I appreciate you saying that that was something that you didn't quite realize at the time. I like hearing that. But then I also appreciate you staying within a 6% budget increase which is close to the expected growth of the city. We took a huge leap in development over the last year. Much greater than the average growth of our city was the growth of our park system over the last year due to the referendum projects. So now we're going to be operating at, instead of leapfrogging ahead to maintain that, we're actually going to be struggling to maintain instead of leapfrogging development. So I don't really know if the concept of, at least at this time, with it's big development of last year staying at that 6% growth level, is that completely workable. At least I think maybe that's what we were thinking. The other piece is, about the 410 fund. It strikes me as if we are setting some new policy and that's okay I guess if we know what the policy is so we can continue to plan appropriately. So we're not stuck in this kind of situation next year thinking that we're actually putting money away into reserves and saving it so we can keep on developing out and maintaining our equipment and parks and recreation in the way that we like. So if we know we're going to need to be responsible for some of the things that we had originally felt were coming out of the general fund as far as maintenance, we need to know that. Mayor Mancino: Well a lot of the things that were taken from the 410...Galpin from Lake Lucy on that...and the brochure that we had sent out here...You guys standing up and saying you know we'll take it out of 410. There have been cost over runs in other areas of the...say let's take those out 410 instead of the general fund. So a lot of that money, or some of that money besides the Lake Ann...the rest of that were components of the community parks, the City Center Park and the Bandimere Park...and as you came to us to say let's take the trail segment that we need to add, take that out of 410. We also looked...given to us as part of the general fund and we thought that should come out of 410 too because that's also part of the referendum add on's and they include the...soccer goals, the hockey goals, etc... That was the thinking on council's part which we... Then again, this is a two month period but certainly...didn't have enough money to take out of the general fund...only one big expense that we asked for from 410 was the Lake Ann roadway...concerned about that. Lash: Lane Ann, it's been in the budget for three years in a row. Mayor Mancino: I think Todd has presented it to us... Lash: Are you talking about, that goes through the park? Hoffman: The entrance road and the parking lot. The old road which is 27, 28 years old. Mayor Mancino: If we need to look at some other way of putting some more money back into the reserve, you know we have a surplus of $700,000.00 to $800,000.00 this year...back into the reserve to cover that. All we know is that Todd has brought that in front of us under the general fund for the last 2 or 3 years...should some of those surplus dollars go into that? What should we do? 10 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Franks: That type of project that typically we're going to have to look at funding out of like the 410 in the future. I mean is that the type of policy, that's what, that's kind of what I'm trying to get at. Is this the kind of thing that we need to be planning for or is this like, I mean you said we're not changing policy but in a sense maybe we are changing policy. Mayor Mancino: Well I think it will take a good look at, and I brought it up the other night as far as equipment .... come from our general equipment funding. We levy the taxpayers a separate levy line item... All of us pay that, a certain percentage of that property taxes to fund...that those should be a maintenance item. Snowplows, tractors...the city. Whether it be parks. Whether it be buildings. Whether it be... I think we will have to look at...whether it be a street road again as far as part of the public works, not so much as part of park and rec. That's where I would like to see it go...and we will be talking about it during this next budgeting. We have not decided... June about setting some policy on budgeting this year. Franks: So like the Lake Ann roadway, that's a budgeting anomaly? ...public works or is that park and rec? Mayor Mancino: Lake Ann ...discussion item with the council to say as we need to...and I think that's something that the city council has to do, and will do. Councilwoman Jansen: So it being in 410 as you were pondering should be an anomaly at this point. It wasn't a philosophical from now on this is where it's going to go. It's. Lash: But how will we know? I mean there's an anom..I can't even say that word... Mayor Mancino: Jan, the best I can tell you is that when we sit down with our new city manager in June and we start, there will certainly be some changes as far as again the budget. Sticking with one activity based budgeting. We will go forward with that. We will...what our objectives are for the general fund. The city council will sit down...what rate of increase...That comes in June. That will be... Berg: What will be your recommendations to the city manager regarding preparation again of 410 between the tax dollar and park and trail fees? Are you going to keep those blended together now that you know traditionally they haven't been? Mayor Mancino: I can't tell you that tonight...discussions and certainly discussing it with the department heads... Lash: I guess that was my question too. It's like the line has been erased and we don't know. Is it erased? Is it not erased? Is it erased occasionally and how will we know when it's being erased? I mean other than just all of a sudden you know we're told, $150,000.00 for the lake access road to Lake Ann obviously is a high priority item or it wouldn't be on there. However $150,000.00 out of our 410 budget is a huge hit. That's over half of our yearly budget and it completely impacts everything else that we want to do. 11 :Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Berg: It's contrary to the philosophy in the past of perhaps saving for years at $50,000.00 a pop, for years to do that road instead of to take the big hit now before we've had the opportunity to build up any kind of reserve. I guess I don't know if we're even going to bother to build up any kind of reserve anymore. Mayor Mancino: Well no, the other part of that also is, I mean with the...in the strategic plan that says that the art center or something as we look at it or something...general fund dollars or our surplus dollars to fund it... So again, I know that's something different because we haven't had a strategic plan before but...trying to look at it kind of non, non, you know each department and each budget... But the most important part is how the communication will be and that you get it and that you understand it and...meeting. Lash: I mean I feel like we kind of had our own strategic plan, you know. You guys set the big plan. We've got our own kind of plan that's been working here for years. Mayor Mancino:... Lash: Right. And I guess now we are not. Berg: We have to have some communication because to say 'that we're going to be able to now look at a park or at an art center and we won't have to touch the 410, the reality if we're ever going to have an art center, the 410 would barely scratch the surface anyway. We'd never be able to put enough into reserve before any of us die before we'd be able to afford it out of that anyway so I guess yeah, we're going to be real curious to see what happens with that fund obviously. Councilwoman Jansen: Well and going back to your having a strategic plan. If that is formalized, I have now requested the Minutes from your two budgeting sessions from '98 as you were working on '99. I don't have an actual or we don't have an actual, Jan you had mentioned that you have like a five year forecast that you've looked at. I mean you're steps ahead of us as far as where the total budget is as far as looking out. But we need that. It's not within the budgeting process. So for the two to be operating totally separately, it doesn't work. And we need to have that plan so that we can be sensitive to it and so there is a communication. That was part of what's definitely missing as far as again you know one being totally separate from the other. Once it gets to us, you know it's all one. We were trying to accomplish the projects that had been presented to us as key and important. Lash: When you get the park and rec budget, it's not differentiated for you to see which ones are 410 budget items and which ones are not? Mayor Mancino: Yes we do but... Councilwoman Jansen: What the strategy was. What the methodology was. Lash: You don't know which ones came from us and which ones were maintenance, staff... 12 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: We have the 410, yes. Lash: Okay. Mayor Mancino: But for instance Lake Ann Park expansion. We'll work on...steps and why we're putting our, why we think that's a valid... We want to go back and write...steps on how we're going to do it and why we're going to do it and so that would be a report...to show as we go into...how your 410 budget...and obviously ask for that. And also ask for a report that goes back under the 410 budget that you have...summary of what it is and...so the communication is clear. Councilwoman Jansen: I was intrigued when I pulled out the city code. Just to take a look to see if I was on the same page and I actually, I called Mr. Hoffman on this and said are you aware of point B? I was looking for this report because I figured this was my missing link. B note, on or before September first of each year the commission shall render a full report to the council covering it's operations for the preceding 12 months together with it's recommendation and an estimate of the funds required for it's work for the ensuing year. Which you do a five year. It shall also render such other regular or special reports, advisory recommendations or make such investigation as it deems advisable or as may be requested by council. So it's my understanding that management in the past has not necessarily looked for something quite this formal and it's just gone the course of the whole budgeting process but we've also asked you know 15% tax levy increases. It would seem that this is what you're doing in your session and if we can just more formalize it in a report so that we have it and it's just part of our packet so as we go into the whole budgeting process, we have exactly what your thinking is. Your goals. Your objectives. Your numbers and by then we'll be onto our five year, hopefully, planning and forecasting and it will just all fall right into place. Lash: And our five year budget does not go onto you? Is that just for us? Hoffman: It was not passed on this year as a part of the budget process, no. Lash: I think if you read our Minutes from when, if it wasn't this year, it has been said in the past years. One, we've made a conscious decision to put money into reserves for projects that we know are longer term. And the opportunity to do it has not really come up, yet we know when the opportunity comes up we need to jump on it and to jump on it, we need the money and we can't always have a referendum for every opportunity such as Minnewashta Park. We bank rolled money for how many years did we do that Todd? Five? Seven years? We consciously has a commission said every year out of our budget we're going to put $50,000.00 and we're going to put it to Lake Minnewashta because when the time comes, we need to be ready and when it came, we were ready. However, we did that with a trust level knowing that nobody was going to tap that money for something else. And someone said one time, we need to be careful when we're doing this because if council starts thinking that we are having this money in reserve, they may start to think that we don't need the money or that we should be using it for other things and to me that's what just happened. And it could be because of the breakdown in 13 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 communication but if you look at our minutes, I think someone said very consciously that night, we've had a very busy year. We've done a lot of big projects. We've spent a lot of money. Is this going to be more of a hunker down year where we need to rebuild our reserves because like you said Mayor, you know we've done a lot to try and finish those trail sections and we tapped some of our reserves down to a level that we aren't always as comfortable. Because we need to strike when the iron's hot and somebody comes in, we need to be able to do it without having to go and ask for money for the general fund. So you know when we see now that some of these things are being taken out of that reserve that we were thinking well we need to build that back up so we have that cushion. Mayor Mancino: It is a constant question...is a big amount of money. Then you know we...this is important for...but I understand where you're coming from, and it's a hard decision. Lash: And you know at that point I guess I would have been more comfortable if you had just sent this back and said, here's the deal folks. You know this isn't working for us and you need to go back and you need to rethink this because if you really have to have this done, it's going to have to come out of your pocket, and we could have, at a commission level discussed it and I think how comfortable if we had made the priority knowing other requests that we've had from residents. And that's what we hear and then we've got to balance all of that and it's the same, it's exactly the same process you guys go through. It's just one piece of the puzzle. Right, you guys have the whole puzzle so we focus on that one piece. And that's what we're here for. We're here to do that for you so you don't have to. Mayor Mancino: Well but we also hope that you will help us when we have to look at that... I mean we want to have reserves. We certainly understand that there are more park and rec projects .that are going to go on...that is so important to our community so that there also needs to be some trust level with us that...than have to do it in-house...that we go over to Lake Ann and have our own crew and cut that...So that's our first question .... costs down so we can still do Lake Ann and...Charles Folch and Anita came back and said we can't do this or that and by the way we need to do NURP ponding because we...plan to Lake Ann when it shouldn't. In fact that isn't even up to our city standards that we would allow anyone else to do...it's so important ...coming to us and saying, you guys. This is happening. This is so important that we have this surplus so that if there's something so important that you...as we look at the open space referendum and as we go and purchase land...that we got from '98 and put it into...because we want to see where there are some...part of it I think will be looked at... we may be around that number. We may be a little low... Councilwoman Jansen: Plus at the same time that we were Working on the budgets we weren't able to be given the actual cash amounts that were in the funds so we had no feel at all for what the liquidity was, as far as being able to shift anything at the time we did the budget. We found that out. Mayor Mancino: At the end of January. 14 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Councilwoman Jansen: The end of January. So there, we are definitely in a transitional year and I hear your concerns. Again, and I realize that actions speak louder than words so it does appear that there's been a philosophical change with the budget. I was so involved in this that that's why I sat to you so adamantly, it wasn't philosophical at all and it was not done intentionally leaving you out of the loop. We would have been here. We would have said something. It was more this is what we were given and we needed to make it work and we had this short window of time to make it work in. And maybe what we do, as I'm thinking ahead of course as we're coming up to 2000. You work as hard as you do on your budget. If we're in sync with our timing, if we have any questions, I mean it can always be a joint meeting if it comes down to that. And the whole philosophical issues so that we're hearing exactly where you're going with your five year planning and we're right on board with it. I mean maybe that's that missing communication link. Berg: When do we get to the point where you're going to be able to say to us yes, what you were doing in the past has merit. The way you were budgeting and trying to save for the big ticket items in the future. The way you're trying to save for events that might come up had merit and we'd like you to continue that. Or we don't think it had merit and we're not going to do it anymore. When will we get to that day when you'll make that decision and let us know what it is? Mayor Mancino: Fred, we'll be talking... Berg: So we'll know by the end of the summer whether or not there has truly been a philosophical change? Okay. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: ...but again a more direct answer right now is I don't think anybody on the council... Berg: So, okay. Franks: My concern about all that is, is that there's a difference in general fund financing versus this park and rec financing in that there's going to come a time when building permits are going to be slow and the city's going to become more and more built out and the availability for us to access funds is going to diminish at a much faster rate than the city continues to grow at with the population. So the idea behind what we're doing this last year, and I was a big proponent of it was to really start putting that money away for when that unfortunate rainy day comes, and it's going to come because that's the way the numbers are. And to see that, a pretty significant item come out of that, you know, makes we wonder you know are we going to be able to replace those swing sets seats or you know are we not. Mayor Mancino: ...five years ahead of time. I mean we're going to have to look... Franks: But I guess what I'm getting at is, this $150,000.00, that's going to be a, that's a lot for us to try and catch up and we may not catch up. 15 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Mayor Mancino: ...and to use the money out of the surplus...buy the land for the Land Ann expansion. Franks: You're looking around...I guess I would agree and we've always thought we would do that but the thing about the money in 410 was that it was in the bank so to speak and the money that we would request from the council is not as much of a sure thing. It's you know... Those are the concerns I think that we would operate under. Lash: I'll speak for myself I guess but I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the commission agreed with me. I think we took a little pride in the fact that we could do that. And that we were trying to be fiscally responsible without council telling us that we had to do that. And when things like this happen it's, you know I start to feel like a child. Like somebody just slapped my fingers and said, no. We know better than you and really from now on you need to come and ask us. Captain may I have some money to do this project when really you've known for five years, we've saved the money because we knew it was important and we had good judgment and we were trusted and we could go ahead with the project and we didn't have to come and beg for the money from you because we already had it. You know what I mean? There's some ownership there and I think it's worked in the past and I think there's a pride in it and I think that's part of the hit in how this all came to us is that it was like being told well, maybe you guys really weren't on track. Councilwoman Jansen: And that has everything to do with why I quick got on your agenda for tonight and I don't know how else to express to all of you that it was not a philosophical change other than the fact that I did very quickly get on your agenda to try to assure you that when these decisions were made, it wasn't at a philosophical level. Yes, I'm hearing what you're saying is we need to get it established as to what it is we are going forward. What you have been doing obviously has been fabulous for this community. I pulled up the trend on expenditures over the last seven years. Our expenditures totally have gone up 66%. Parks and rec, 348%. So this. Franks: Did that include the referendum? Councilwoman Jansen: That was through, no that would just be general fund° That's just general fund spending. So the commitment has been made and it has everything to do with the confidence level of what you're all doing. And your goals and objectives, we just need to get into the loop. I mean that's where when I was having that conversation and realizing that you have a five year plan, we need to get in the loop and it's a communication issue. Mayor Mancino: And the other part of that is I think anytime...so as we look back at it, say you know in 1992 when we really started...parking and everything and say, well probably we should have and staff and the commission said you know...so I just want to say that to you...as we go forward you will certainly... We're trying to make it... Lash: Well I think we all understand as commissioners, maintenance is huge and every project that we take on, every new park that we develop is going to impact the rest of the city budget because it will have to be...understand that. So I think we try to balance all that but ultimately 16 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 again that has been your department to figure out where to get money to maintain it. I mean we know it has to happen but we didn't have to really worry that it came out of our budget. Which is different. Mayor Mancino: Let me tell you we...more visionary project that... Lash: So if we just take a look at the other side now. Because I'd like to feel like at least we're going to have people...and it'd be nice if it could happen tonight. If it can't happen tonight... happen at our work session in March. So that we look at the things that were transferred to 410. There are some items there I don't have too much problem with having come out of 410 because they are things that are going to enhance some projects such as soccer goals, nets for Bandimere, or hockey boards or the skate park equipment. Some of those things. We can prioritize those things too. That's what we're here for. But the hit is the Lake Ann access road. And if we could get a sense from you by the end of March that that could be shifted back, since you said you have some type of a, that would ease our budget tremendously. That we could continue more in the direction... Some of these other things we may be, you can absorb or prioritize easily but $150,000.00, we just can't. Mayor Mancino: That we will do as we go through the strategic plan...We're hoping to have two work sessions in March...so if we can do a portion of it or. The other question that we ask is not only one, can we do it in-house but number two, can you...build it in two years. Half one year and half the other or...And the other part is, I'm not sure if... Hoffman: No it has not and it will assuredly go up. We met with Bill Engelhardt of Engelhardt and Associates and. Mayor Mancino: ... Hoffman: No, there's a lot of work to do in that particular road and then when you include the trail that goes around from Lake Ann to Greenwood Shores and the ponding and the parking lot, a low number. Lash:... Hoffman: Correct. Mayor Mancino: And then the John Deere went to... Hoffman: A couple of insights, or viewpoints from my perspective. A lot of disclosure this evening which has been for all of us. There's a good reason that the five year CIP has not gone anywhere. It is empty. The referendum has completed the five year CIP and the Park and Recreation Commission has not had the opportunity, nor has staff to go back and reforecast our long range five year CIP. So we are operating on an annual basis right now. Fund 410 from your perspective, the culture at the park and recreation commission meeting has been passed on from member to member, for all the years that I've been here. That's difficult to pass on in writing. 17 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 There's tidbits of it that go to the council and as council changes, as park commission changes, that's difficult to track back and forth and it's not been a real high priority for them. When you complete Fund 410, it goes off and it's put up on a shelf and it's there. It's an entity that you understand and you budget for. And the council takes a look at it and they see it just as a fund. Just as 410. They don't see all of the background that has gone on at the park and recreation commission level. So they're tempted to use what they have as tools to balance what they see before them that day so that is what's taken place and so it really isn't attempting to do your business. It's a good piece of communication we've had here this evening. And then the issue of policy and how we fund these things has been bounced around here from administrator to administrator, mayor to mayor, council to council. We have pushed, I have pushed, these maintenance items you know the park commission didn't talk about. They didn't talk about the Lake Ann road, the irrigation controller. That's initiated from my office to the manager's office to the council. And we have talked about for many, many years a playground replacement fund. All of these playgrounds are going to have to be replaced. We should have a tax levy that's going into there to replace a playground annually, every year once we hit that benchmark where it's going to have to happen. The road at Lake Ann we knew, I just knew we were not going to get, the $150,000.00 or $200,000.00 that it takes as a lump sum, general fund tax purchase at any one given year. So we kept pushing for $30,000.00 this year. $30,000.00 that year. $30,000.00 next year. When you need to balance the budget it's very easy to cut that Lake Ann Park road reserve. It got cut, cut, cut, cut and so we continued to put it in and put it in at full taxing level and so we've gone to this scenario this year where we want to get it done. It's not going to get done on the back of the taxpayer. It's going to have to get done out of fund 410 if you see that as a big priority. But that has not been discussed at the commission level so. That's why we got to where we're at and I don't think it's the fault of the council or the commission. It's really a fault of just the process that's been established over time and. Mayor Mancino: ... Hoffman: Yeah, and then to throw in this activity base budgeting and for the last three months of the year we did, you know we were really thrown for a loop. We didn't talk about the normal budget process that we're all accustomed to. We talked about the new budget process so it was ...to get a handle on that so, thank you both for coming in. I think we have. Mayor Mancino: Please know that if you have any other questions, any other...we are e-mail or phone call away... Or if you would like to invite us to...tell you as far as the budgeting part...budget done by the September...that we all got that proposed tax levy. We have to set that and if we don't have the budget pulled together by September... Lash: Thank you. We'll move on to our next item. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Howe: Page 8, I did not nominate myself for the Chair. I did not say that. Roeser: Those minutes are reading like War and Peace again... 18 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Lash: ...Any other questions? Okay, seeing none. Is there a motion to approve as corrected? Franks: So moved. Lash: Is there a second? Howe: Second. Franks moved, Howe seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated January 26, 1999 as amended. All voted in favor and the motion carried. LANI) DEVELOPMENT REVIEW REQUEST TO REPLAT OUTLOT D CHANItASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK INTO 10 LOTS AND A WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT AND ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT WORKSHEET (EAW) FINDING ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP~ INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK~ AND EAST OF AUDUBON ROAD EAST OF CO. RD. 17~ SOUTH OF THE CHICAGO~ MILWAUKEE~ ST. PAUL~ PACIFIC RAILROAD TRACKS ON LAKE DRIVE WEST~ CHANHASSEN LAKES BUSINESS PARK 7TM ADDITION~ EDEN TRACE CORPORATION. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: This is the road I believe we had talked about for years as being the final access to Sunset Ridge, correct? So what will we be looking at as a city as far as providing access into the park and...parking lot or what are we going to do? Hoffman: That's a good question. Should not have left that out of the report. The concept has two access points right at this location. Engineering has cut that down to one and they will construct a parking lot for Sunset Ridge as a part of that project. That's how we get things done. The parking lot will be taken care of in Sunset Ridge. Lash: And it's right down where you have your hand? Hoffman: Yep, right here. Lash: Is that where the... Hoffman: Absolutely. Matches the... Howe: This road won't have a lot of traffic, will it? These are mostly warehouses I read in the report. There's not a lot of heavy office use. Any idea on the traffic that road might see? 19 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Mark Undestad: I met with some people today...studies that we're doing right now, less traffic... Lash: Are there any questions for staff or the developer? Franks: Similar type of sidewalk that's already on Lake Drive? Hoffman: No. Sidewalks are managed, well they're designed into plats by the planners... concrete. That's what I would recommend and. Lash: Okay, other questions? Okay, is there a motion? Mayor Mancino: ...I'm Nancy Mancino, 6620 Galpin. Isn't there Mark some high density adjacent to it? Mark Undestad: The southeast section..~ Mayor Mancino: Okay, so. Mark Undestad: He's recommended this area... Mayor Mancino: Again, just so the commission knows that adjacent on the southeast comer will be what is zoned right now high density housing. Lash: How many units are you? Mayor Mancino: The proposal has not come in from a developer but just so you know that it's you know up to 16 units per acre and it has been designated there. And I think that the city council would still support keeping that zoning high density. So it 'will be just to the east of the park and certainly will use that roadway so I just wanted you to have that information. Lash: How many acres are there? Mark Undestad: I think it's... Lash: Probably will impact on Sunset Ridge Park... Hoffman: It's, as far as neighborhood parks go, it has some size to it and it should be able to handle it...the service areas are not designed for and the population base but it will change the perspective from the current resident. Lash: Okay, is there a motion? Roeser: I recommend that Park and Recreation recommends to City Council requiring payment of full park and trail dedication fees of Chanhassen Lakes Business Park 7th Addition. 2O ~Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Lash: Is there a second? Franks: Second. Roeser moved, Franks seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council require payment of full park and trail dedication fees for Outlot D, Chanhassen Lakes Business Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Okay, we'll move on to item 2 which is another land development review. Hoffman: Chair Lash, if we could. Item 2 does have some history which I'd like to go into. We have a member of the audience here for item number 4. PUBLIC GATHERING PERMIT~ WATER SKIING TOURNAMENT AT LAKE SUSAN PARK. Jerry Ruegemer presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Was this at Lake Susan before Jerry? Ruegemer: Yes. Franks: ...how the lakeshore residents were notified about... Are you planning just the one event this summer? I know in the past you've considered having two events. Joe Mueller: Well it's actually three events in one. There's wake boarding, knee boarding and slalom skiing. What's happened with us in the past is we're pulling close to 100 to 150 competitors per weekend and we had held practice on Saturday and Sundays was our tournament. Well we were running into the evenings, into the night sometimes which we don't like to do for safety reasons so we decided to go Saturday from like 8:30 to 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 with practice and then we'll be doing our slalom skiing throughout the afternoon Saturday and Sunday will be basically knee board and wake boarding, which is the big events for the kids. So it is a full two day schedule. Franks: That includes the practice? Joe Mueller: That includes the practice. And chances are at the Lake Susan, we've got a professional women's WAL tournament coming the 17th, that following weekend so that's not going to be an open spot for us because we're also sponsored by the local marinas in the area so we're all going to be at a women's WAL tournament down at the Aquatennial with our boats and staff. I lost track of what I was getting at. Lash: 17th? 21 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Joe Mueller: Oh the 17th, correct. Thank you. So it is a two day tournament. Lash: Other questions for Mr. Mueller? For staff?....motion. Howe: I move we accept staff's recommendation to approve the INT's request for a public gathering permit...$250.00 per day and recommend that a $1,000.00 damage check be submitted to cover any damages. Lash: Is there a second? Roeser: Second. Howe moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Rec Commission approve the INT's request for the public gathering permit to hold the water skiing, wakeboard and kneeboard tournament at Lake Susan on July l0th and 11th. It's also recommended that the INT pay the reservation fee of $250.00 per day to reserve the Lake Susan Pavilion for their tournament headquarters. Staff also recommends that a $1,000.00 deposit check be submitted prior to the event to cover any unforeseen circumstances or damages. All voted in favor, except Berg who opposed, and the motion carried 4 to 1. Lash: Fred, do you want to just clarify your vote? Berg: I did have a resident or two, some residents talk about the disruption that live on Lake Susan. They did register their complaint with me about the noise and the inability to use the lake for those days. Lash: Okay, thanks we'll move on. LAND DEVELOPMENT REVIEW~ REQUEST FOR A REZONING OF 6.39 ACRES FROM A-2~ AGRICULTURAL ESTATE TO RSF~ RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY; PRELIMINARY PLAT OF 6.39 ACRES INTO 10 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND I OUTLOT~ A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO PERMIT DEVELOPMENT IN THE BLUFF CREEK OVERLAY DISTRICT~ AND VACATION OF A PORTION OF DRAINAGE AND UTILITY EASEMENT. THE PROPERTY IS LOCATED EAST OF GALPIN BOULEVARD AND NORTH OF STONE CREEK SUBDIVISION~ LYNMORE SUBDIVISION~ DAVE MOORE. Todd Hoffman presented the staff report on this item. Lash: Thanks Todd. Anyone with questions for staff?. Franks: Todd are you aware, because I remember when this came through. And I'm surprised to see like the same... Are they looking at then developing the lots 2, 1, 6, 5, and I guess that would be Lot 4...proposed kind of a plan like that? 22 .'Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Hoffman: Oh sure. Yeah, they have a number of drawings. You know in their opinion these are $120,000.00 lots. So when we talk about, I posed the question let's push this value and lots up here, he said well you're trying to cram what I see as $480,000.00, a half million dollars in lots up onto here and it's just not going to happen. And so you knoW how are you going to compensate me for that and then you know you're back butting heads with the ordinance...going to be one of these negotiated type settlements. And I'm fine taking the hard line. Send me back up there to take the hard line but I think we're talking...numbers from our point of view and I think we're talking...attribute to the community when you add this space to the Bluff Creek and what we already have... Lash: Obviously there was a lot of thought gone into the Bluff Creek overlay district... Roeser: Well we'll assume the council's going to be hard nosed too. Lash: Mayor Mancino, you look like you're bursting. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, I'm not bursting really but I'm just, I'm kind of putting on my planning commissioners hat for a minute here, if you don't mind. There is no question that the, this ordinance, this corridor ordinance is going to test us along the way. To having a primary and a secondary zone because it has to do with looking at the, not our typical, traditional, single family development pattern. It will be what is called obviously density transfer kinds of things, and there will be developers who will want to continue with the traditional. Meaning that they butt up, they're adjacent to Stone Creek and that's a very traditional development with traditional lot size, etc so to go and be doing something different next to it, which is more of a clustered type development, you know there will be developers who will be concerned about that. So this is how it will test this particular ordinance, and we'd like to do it in a way that certainly is the carrot, not the stick if we can approach to making sure that we keep the primary zone in it's natural state. And try and get developers to do the density transfer and to do the clustering. But there may be those who just, you know do not want to do that so. Lash: I guess we'll find out. Is there a motion? Berg: I move we recommend that, to the City Council denial of this application based on the findings that it does meet the requirements of Bluff Creek Overlay Ordinance. Lash: Is there a second? Howe: Second. Berg moved, Howe seconded that the Planning Commission recommend that the City Council denial of this application based on the findings that it does meet the requirements of Bluff Creek Overlay Ordinance. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 23 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Franks: Will there be any discussions then with the developer about the park fees issue? Do you need anything, direction...how to proceed with that or about holding the hard line in the primary corridor or to kind of standing by the decision that we previously made to waive them? Hoffman: That'd be helpful. I informed the applicant that I would be posing the question to the commission. Franks: Are we wanting to come to some sort of consensus to provide that kind of direction? Roeser: Does this go back to the Planning Commission before it goes to the council again? Hoffman: Yes. Well it will either be pulled from the...see the light that it's not going anywhere. They threw it out there again...pull it and change it and which at the time they change it and resubmit then I would get it back onto your agenda as quickly as possible so I'm not sure of where it's headed from here. And to follow up on Rod's comments. The fear or the down side of that is that there are going to be much bigger developments in the future with the primary zone and park and trail fee questions. So we send this one away and we waive the fees, then we bring the 300 acre subdivision with you know a quarter of a million dollar, half a million dollar in park fees and they're going to be looking at that time, if they're smart, they're going to be sniffing around and find out that it's been waived in the past and they're going to say well. That primary zone we understand it's important, you know it's important to you. We also understand that you've granted park and trail fee credits for it in the past so let's see it this time. Lash: We'll have to be real careful with the precedent we set. Berg: Plus it delivers a wishy washy message to Mr. Moore .... waiving park and trail fees. Franks: ...with some decision on property to do that? Lash: You know originally didn't we have, we were going to waive it because he wasn't. Roeser: He was going to use those lots. Lash: Right...houses on there. Hoffman: But then the ordinance changed that perspective. So perhaps if there is that compensation softening that we should not call it, take it out of park and trails and look at it in so much context. Because you're doing it, the planning department is already doing it with density transfer. They're taking the density out of there and trying to squeeze it up here and that's what Mayor Mancino alluded to is that may not fly either. But it's a small piece and this is a, you know percentage wise, it's a pretty big chunk of open space of this subdivision. So then what else is thrown to the mix to get this one done, get it behind and move on to the next ones that come up. There's a reason that this piece of property has not been purchased until this time. It's a tough parcel to develop and so there's been frustration on the part of the developer but that doesn't mean. 24 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Lash: It's not our problem. Okay. We'll move on. REVIEW SPECTATOR BLEACHER PROPOSAL~ CHANHASSEN RECREATION CENTER AND BANDIMERE PARK. Lash: Jerry I think had an opportunity to talk to Frank but we'll...does anybody need any other? Okay, is there a motion? Franks: I move that Park and Rec Commission authorize the joint purchase...from Athletic Facilities Enterprises at a cost of $9,863.00, $7,267.07 from Park and Recreation in the city and $2,595.52... And that the remainder of the budgeted spectator seating budget go rolled over to the year 2000 for additional bleachers at that time. Lash: Is there a second to that? Howe: Second. Franks moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission authorize the joint purchase of nineteen 3 row x 15 ft. bleachers from Seating and Athletic Facility Enterprises at a cost of $9,863. This cost is to be divided between the CAA ($2,595.53) and the city (7,267.47). It is recommended that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council roll over the remaining 1999 spectator seating budget (approximately $12,500) to the year 2000 for additional bleachers at Bandimere and City Center Community Parks. All voted in favor and the motion carried. GRANT REQUEST FOR PADDLE BOAT USE, GIRL SCOUTS OF AMERICA. Ruegemer: Would you like me to go through that Jan or is that? Lash: No. Does anybody have questions? Pretty straight forward. Okay, so seeing we have no questions, is there a recommendation then? Roeser: For the paddleboat thing? Lash: Yes. Howe: I move that we allow the Riverbluff Gift Scout group the use of four paddleboats for their camp August 2nd to August 5th, 1999. They will be charged $120.00 usage fee for the four days the boats are out of our service. We'll have a checklist on the condition of each boat before they're transported to Lake Minnewashta and the Girl Scouts are in charge of their own life jackets, supervision, insurance and transportation to and from Lake Minnewashta. Lash: Okay, is there a second to that? 25 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Roeser: Second. Howe moved, Roeser seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission allow the Riverbluff Girl Scout group the use of four paddleboats for their camp August 2na to August 5th, 1999. They will be charged $120.00 usage fee for the four days the boats are out of our service. We'll have a checklist on the condition of each boat before they're transported to Lake Minnewashta and the Girl Scouts are in charge of their own life jackets, supervision, insurance and transportation to and from Lake Minnewashta. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ESTABLISH DISCUSSION TOPICS~ JOINT MEETING WITH CITY COUNCIL ON MARCH 29TM. Hoffman: And again to remind the commissioners, that's tentative and those work sessions move around a lot. Lash: I made a quick list of some ideas that I had. Obviously we had a great discussion tonight regarding communication and the budget issues but I think it would be helpful if all of the players were involved so I think it'd be good to summarize tonight that night so all City Council members are hearing the same thing, plus we're missing two commissioners tonight too. I think it'd be a good idea for us to discuss, by then we'll have some of our goals in line, so that we're sure that we're on the same page as far as goals. They know what we're working towards and if they have anything they'd like to add, we welcome to their comments. It was mentioned last night at the council meeting, and actually I was the one who seems to remember this and I could be remembering in error. And maybe none of you have been around long enough to remember but it seemed to me that in years past there was a city council member who was assigned to our commission as sort of the liaison person to attend, not necessarily every meeting but fairly regularly like quarterly or somewhere along I suppose it depends on the schedule. And that was brought up last night as a possible communication link for us. I'd just like to I guess discuss that, that night to see if people have... Also I think I'd like to try and get direction. I know that we've been operating minus an important staff person in the park department and I guess I'd like to find out what's going on with that and the importance of maintaining the excellent staff that we have. So I'd like that to be an item. Anybody else have items? Howe: Well I think tonight is a very good, a very fine step in the process of coming and talking about budgeting and some of your goals for us. I guess in the big picture I'd kind of like to hear the entire council. I mean what do they expect from us. I think I have an idea. I think we all have an idea but I mean we're a sounding board. I think we filter a lot of the park and recreation issues for them and make a recommendation. Just to hear from them what they expect of us. And how we can help them better in their goals and what they're looking for. Just kind of the big picture. Lash: Rod, do you have anything? Franks: How long is the meeting going to be? 26 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Hoffman: One hour. Franks: I don't have anything more to add then. Lash: Okay. Fred, do you have anything? Berg: Not really. I guess I really would like to know what each council member thinks the role of the commission is. Got some new people and we've got some people who I've never heard answer that, deal with that question. Lash: Ron? Roeser: I'm fine. Lash: Okay. Do you have one Todd? Hoffman: No, I don't have one. I think I can answer one tonight. Lash: What's that? Hoffman: And get one out of the way. The staffing. Patty Dexter left mid year 1998. That gives us an opportunity, gives me an opportunity as the department head to look forward and to take time to reflect where we're heading in the organization of the department. We brought in Dawn Beitel as an interim to fill in while we had that opportunity because we wanted to present a new plan as a part of the 1999 budget. That new plan was to split the role of recreation supervisor. We had two equals working under my supervision in Patty and Jerry. That does not make for the best communication at times in order of seniority and order of duty and so I saw an opportunity there to promote Jerry to Recreation Superintendent. Have him be the fire wall for all recreation items. As we mature into a full service recreation department and community, that's how the organization should be structured. And we bring in a recreation supervisor who works underneath Jerry and can manage the bulk of the programming that takes place. Jerry continues to manage many of the programs and then all of the contracts that we have for a variety of other services. Lake Ann beach. The adaptive recreation. And carries out a lot of administrative duties that has to do with our recreation. Then we wrap in our senior center person. And then I also requested a full time facility supervisor at the recreation center which was not granted...and fell back onto the position of lead facilities supervisor with Susan Marek. And so I think all of us need to understand that we're operating a quarter of a million dollar business with a person who is permanent part time being compensated $14.00 an hour and could walk out the door at really at any given time. It's not a career position for Susan and so we need to consciously be aware of that and we're operating at, she does a very, a wonderful job but believe me she's operating at capacity much beyond $14.00 an hour as an employee. And then we bring in a full time receptionist-secretary in the department to carry on a very important role which has been missing. That person will know everything about us and be able to tell 27 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 customers everything they need to know about all of our reservation facilities. Our registration duties .... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) ESTABLISH 1999 COMMISSION GOALS. Lash: ...We talked about the 101 connector. We need to be looking at that to figure out how we can get that piece completed. And I'd like to have us begin to explore some of the options of the different funding opportunities that we could have for the skate park. Berg: I'd like to see us getting back to the business of doing things with the parks. It seems like we haven't been doing that much. Maybe look at our five year plan and start deciding where we have to start planning ahead for something like that. I've done some just real off the wall talking to lots of kids at school and boy, they're excited about the skate park. A lot of interest is still really out there. I can give you 20 names tomorrow if it will help. So the kids are really still anxious about it. And I agree with Ron the history thing. Whoever said they were going to do that sure dropped the ball on that. Lash: And we won't name any names. You know another piece that's, I mean since that's really on a roll, I think some of the parks have some kind of an interesting too, I don't know. You know how when you see the little historical...but some do. Roeser: Maybe when I leave the Park and Rec here this spring I'll revitalize the historical committee. I spent the afternoon with a seventh grade class in Chaska today telling them about Chanhassen. I guess I'm part of it huh. Lash: Do you have anything else? Roeser: Not really. Most of the things you guys I agree with. Finish up the trails. Lash: Okay. Are you going to bring this back to us? Hoffman: Yeah. Lash: Thanks. PROGRAM REPORTS: 1999 FIREWORKS CONTRACT~ ANNUAL 4TM OF JULY CELEBRATION. Berg: Can we make it longer?...Yeah, that's what it was. I was trying to remember what it was we talked about. Disappointing finale. Lash: That it was spread out? 28 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Roeser: You mean it went fast. Berg: Yeah, it wasn't a definitive end... Ruegemer: 18 to 20 minutes. Lash: We want it to be awesome and we want it for... Okay, is there a motion? Berg: I move we have the 4th of July. Roeser: I recommend the City approve the contract for Melrose Pyrotechnic in the amount of $14,500.00...out at Lake Ann Park... Lash: Okay, is there a second to that? Howe: Second. Roeser moved, Howe seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission approve the ,contract for the 4th of July 1999 fireworks celebration to Melrose Pyrotechnic in the amount of $14,500.00. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 1999 FEBRUARY FESTIVAL EVALUATION. Lash: February Festival, great job Jerry. Roeser: How was it? Lash: Good. Berg: I see we're paying the emcee now. He's not even cold there and all of a sudden $125.00 for this guy to come out here and do it. A somewhat less kind of job. I mean he didn't have that personal, get out there and meet the fish kind of talk. Howe: No history lessons. Berg: No history lessons. I see nothing about...and we paid him $125.00 to boot. Boy Jerry. Ruegemer: All I can say Fred is I cheaped out on the microphone stuff. I didn't have a wireless there so. Lowering expenses. Hoffman: Less requirements for this man. Lash: And then Jerry you were saying, did I, I was trying to remember if it was here. If it was this one where you were thinking you wanted to try and cut back on advertising costs? 29 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Hoffrnan: Oh yeah. If you saw, this is the cheap version of February Festival and it's just as good as the rest but the bottom line cost, Jerry did a wonderful job in keeping the money in the bank so. Lash: Good. The medallion hunt was fun. Ruegemer: Yeah...the Friends of Library are very interested in carrying on with that and they want to make it as big as St. Paul one day so. Lash: ...because it was different authors and titles of books...Would you have known? Franks: I just want to tell you Jerry, I thought it was set up really well. Ruegemer: I'd like to thank all the commissioners too for all their help. Before and the day of the contest. It's really nice to have you guys down there, even Fred. Berg: Maybe we could invest in some sort of auger that somebody could carry around...one of those great big 150 ton fence posts that absolutely drench you with water every time you put a hole in. It was the next day... Lash: How much of a hassle is that for you Jerry afterwards having a little shift in the prize thing with not having to be present? Was that a pain afterwards? No? Ruegemer: No, not really. I mean we just make contacts afterwards, that type of thing. By law we're. Lash: You didn't have their phone numbers. Didn't you have to go through all the 'tickets to find those? Ruegemer: Well we had information on there and stuff so it wasn't that bad of a deal. Berg: I bet that made the drawing go a lot faster then if you didn't have to keep redrawing. Ruegemer: True. I was not always satisfied with...looking for ways to improve. Hoffman: Got to be happy. If you didn't have that weather. Lash: Yeah, it was a beautiful day... SELF 'SUPPORTING PROGRAMS: SUMMER SOFTBALL. Lash: The summer softball, does anybody have questions for Jerry? Questions for softball? 3O · ,[Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Ruegemer: FYI. No, just all the registrations are on the streets right now. Getting a lot of phone calls already. People are getting anxious for that. We had a special bid to host the Men's Classic Division III Tournament out here August 13th to 15th. I'll be working that probably along with Don Schwartz, our park coOrdinator. I would imagine we'll probably have anywhere from 40 to 80 teams out here for that. That's going to generate some huge money for Chanhassen and good exposure for the park too so. Lash: ...would you consider offering the CAA, do these guys do concessions? Ruegemer: Yeah in fact I was just about to draft a letter to the Lions in... Lash: The Lions would do a different kind of. Ruegemer: They probably would do beer sales too but. Lash: But maybe both can...Lions did their normal kind of thing but CAA maybe could do cans of pop and candy. Ruegemer: That is certainly one of the components that I needed to get into play for August was the type ora concession. One thing we might want to consider too is maybe putting some type of a gate for the weekend. Charge you know a couple bucks to get in and we can generate some revenue that way too. We'll be making money on boat rentals that weekend and. Lash: That's not when the Girl Scouts have them is it? Ruegemer: No. We'll have them back by then... Berg: Was it a couple years ago we had troubles with, we adapted our rules for the women's leagues? Was that softball? Franks: The resident. Berg: The resident. How's that going? Ruegemer: ...and I've had a lot of phone calls from teams from Eden Prairie that want to come oven Men's open teams on Thursday night but if we had another four fields out there, we'd fill them. I might shift and do another night of men's open on a different night if I have some open fields. Just as a side note I'd like to also thank Mayor Mancino for her efforts at the February Festival also. RECREATION CENTER REPORT: Lash: Does anybody have... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) 31 Park and Rex: Commission - February 23, 1999 ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: Hoffman: ...secure a purchase agreement on. Otherwise it would have been done today and there's some difficulties we all recognize there so there's going to have to be some aggressive action and I see that happening with the city council in the first quarter of this year. So look for some information and more news in that area. But talk about $400,000.00-$420,000.00 which has been invested was for the Hanson property expansion of City Center Park which is expensive but in the long term of this community, a key ingredient of the overall system. So you have a million three left there. Construction of trails. The two projects which, well actually three which are not complete are Galpin, the second lift of asphalt, Powers, first and second lift of asphalt and then Bluff Creek trails which has really transformed into a much larger, more exciting project with the acquisition of the open space down there. Moving the trail out into the wetland in certain areas. A wetland project. A BWSR grant. Just a whole lot of things going on that Phillip Elkin has been assisting with and we will still invest our dollars, our referendum dollars in the trails. Phillip will be investing his dollars and his grant money into the trail. There's some new easements, new land acquisitions. Just a lot of work went into that and so it will be...see that happen in the spring. Then there are the outstanding encumbrances which are noted. To the contractor. To Howard R. Green, the consultant. The easement payments which we have left which now, as of today I think number two left. But the $10,000.00 included a total of about five. The legal for all the work required to secure those easements. And then we're down to $4,000.00 so again a small balance left. Estimated balance left in that project. If you can imagine, with those type of small balances and then with the action last night of th~ City Council, take the action to invest those outstanding balances in other projects up here at City Center. I will be having meetings with each one of our representatives who are responsible for these jobs and explicitly be describing that there are no additional funds. So when we run into a situation where we need extra gravel or moving a fire hydrant or something like that, it's going to come down to a hard line so that's where I'll be for the remainder of the construction on these projects. So for the first three months of the construction season, if ! seem ornery at your commission meetings, you'll know why. Then we go back to the $67,000.00 number. We had to balance that and I took a look at three different options. One of them is, the first option is essentially balancing on the back of the project and so if you take a look at, if that's the only option you have, that's what you have to go to but it was not a very pretty option to cut asphalt trails, $21,000.00. Bleacher pads, $20,000.00. Color court surfacing, $9,500.00 and plantings. We took some criticism for cutting the trees down and then not to replace those trees, it just really wasn't, should not happen. But those were the type of items that were left to be constructed that you could secure those dollars figures from, and as always the owner of these contracts reserves the right to remove them at any time in the project. Option 2. We started taking a look at going a different direction. Let's take a look at some of those maintenance items which were budgeted, or shifted over into 410 that we could potentially do without in order to solve this problem this year, and that's the irrigation controller, John Deere tractor, and then $22,000.00 in reserves. As you recall, there was $200,000.00 in reserves allocated to these projects in the initial and so instead of assigning $100,000.00 each, you're assigning $111,000.00 each in reserves. I still have the feeling that I wanted to get that reserve amount down even more so we went to Option 3 which would delete, take some pain and take that color court surfacing, one of the niceties away 32 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 fi.om City Center Park, and then accessing $13,000.00. In the end what the council suggested was that Councilman Labatt and others valued that color court surfacing and they wanted to see that go in. To do that, access the majority of the money from the remaining reserves in neighborhood parks and community trails and so that's kind of the trade-off. The irrigation system controller, at the direction of Mayor Mancino was left up to the decision of Dale Gregory, Parks Superintendent and myself. And as of today, after talking with Dale...could hold off on that because there's other issues. The Lake Ann access road and other things that are hitting fund 410 so he'd like to hold off on that. Again, they're very happy that, again Mayor Mancino talked about the John Deere tractor and moving that into the equipment fund. These things get kicked around when items go into the equipment fund. I don't manage the equipment fund. Charles Folch, the Public Works Superintendent, Harold Brose do and so we're in there fighting to get our equipment but a $9,500.00 tractor can get bumped out pretty easily. It got bumped out and if we wanted to get it this year it had to come out of 410 and the directive was given last night to go ahead and purchase it and Charles has acknowledged that he will do that. So the tractor is being purchased out of the equipment replacement fund. But those $9,500.00 still are, will stay in 410 but are still responsible for paying part of the overage. So it's not going to the tractor. It's going to the overage. It's still... Mayor Mancino: Can I speak up to that equipment fund for a minute because that's an interesting observation that, or statement that you made that I didn't know and that's again another I suppose policy statement that needs to be put into place. The equipment fund not only funds public works, it also funds public safety, our inspections department, their equipment. It also looks at the fire department and also park and rec. So that fund and who makes up the decision for how the money is spent for the equipment fund should probably be all the department heads getting together, not just one, and that ultimate decision, trying to decide because everybody will have purchases they want to make, should ultimately be the city manager's. Not one department head. From what you just said. Hoffman: And I don't know that to be, Don's certainly involved in that and now Todd would be involved with that. We haven't, the city manager's role...over the past few months but we all represent, I represent what we need for equipment. They certainly have my spoken word. So but the process can certainly be improved. And then accessing the remainder from the reserve funds to get to that total of $67,000.00. That was approved by resolution last night from the City Council and that's a big burden off of my back. I like to balance these budgets and I'm proud of the project. I'm not very proud of when we run into these situations so I was very appreciative of the council's actions last night and I thought that they handled it very effectively. This information again you can see that this was copied to the commission last night. These, you know the park commission handles fund 410, park acquisition and development. When we run into budget problems, I deal directly to the city manager's office and then the city council and then we inform the commission of what's taking place so you can take that information and utilize it and say oh you know, here fund 410 took another hit. That means we have to take a little bit more, even more protective measures to fund 410 so that's the, at least how it's happened in the past and I continue that communication, series of communication in this case. If you have questions, I can answer those or Nancy can take questions. 33 Park and Rec Commission - February 23, 1999 Lash: Okay, thanks. Is there a motion, anybody have anything else? Howe: ...and this was neat. They had these on all the tables. Just about clean up your parks and ! don't think Burger King's giving food away or anything but this was a promotional deal. So I took one and brought it here. Lash: Anyone else... Okay, is there a motion to adjourn? Berg moved, Franks seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 34