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1976 09 30 I I I ASSESSMENT HEARING FRONTIER TRAIL STREET IMPROVEMENT PROJECT 75-4 SEPTEMBER 30, 1976, AT 7:30 p.m. Mayor Klingelhutz called the hearing to order with the following members present: Councilmen Hobbs, Neveaux, Kurvers, and Waritz. The following persons were present: Frederick Coulter, 7616 Frontier Trail Mr. and Mrs. Don Goetze, 7610 Frontier Trail Larry Tivy, 7520 Frontier Trail Roger Bongard, 7551 Great Plains Blvd. Leola Hjermstad, 7617 Frontier Trail Judy DeJoode, 7407 Frontier Trail lee Forcier, 7500 Frontier Trail Hubert T. Forcier, 7500 Frontier Trail Hubert V. Forcier, 1300 Northwestern National Bank, Minneapolis C. Peter Linsmayer, 7421 Frontier Trail Ted and Sally delancey, 7505 Frontier Trail Gene Coulter, 7550 Great Plains Blvd. Dick Pearson, 7307 Frontier Trail Bi 11 Brezi ns ky Russell Larson The City Attorney read the official notice as published in the Carver County Herald. Bill Brezinsky explained the project and assessment criteria. The assessment roll that was available at City Hall was based on an estimated cost of $53,062. This estimate was based on 13% of the project being completed. Now, having subcut the road and determined what sub-base is needed and base,the estimate now is $54,389 based on 80% completion. The total length of the project is 2650 feet extending from West 78th Street north 2650 feet. The northerly 550 feet was disturbed when the Carver Beach force main was installed. The Carver Beach project was charged the cost of the sub-base and the amount it would cost to sealcoat this road. The entire cost of the remaining 2100 feet will be assessed in the Frontier Trail project. Frontage was determined as follows: The lots fronting and gaining access from Frontier Trail were assessed their entire abutting length with a minimum of 90 feet. lots abutting Frontier Trail but gaining access from other streets were assessed one- half the abutting length. There are four lots that gain access to Frontier Trail but don't abut on Frontier Trail. These were assessed 90 foot frontage. Odd shaped lots were assessed at the setback line. It was determined that the Gene Coulter property and Lot 12 derive no benefit from this project and were not assessed. On the original assessment roll two frontages were in error. The Fred Coulter property which was assessed for 52~ feet should have been assessed for 105 feet. The former Tom Klingelhutz property, lots 9 and 10, Block 4, the house actually fronts on Frontier Trail but was originally assessed as a side yard. It should be assessed for frontage. On lots 1 and 2, Block 4, the house fronts on Chan View. The garage is on Frontier Trail. The Council should determine how this property should be assessed. The assessments will be spread O'Ifer ëften year period at 7~% simple interest. Appeals are being received at City Hall. They will be considered by the Council on October 6. Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing, September 30, 1976 -2- The hearing was opened for questions and comments from the floor. Hubert V. Forcier - Speaking somewhat from ignorance in that I don It know your policies on assessing corner lots but I would note that Lot 18 is in fact a corner lot. I have a copy of a survey here and it is actually less than a 90 degree angle. There was an encroachment of the road and my father gave an easement which of course is something you should consider also. It would seem to us that the one-half rate assessments on the other corner lots are indicative of some pol icy to assess corner lots at one-haTf rate. I think that you might conclude that this is quite a large lot and that perhaps only justify a portion that you could carve it up and consequentlY'whatever one-half rate you would apply in that situation should apply to a distinct portion of it and not all of it. Not being bashful I would ask for a half rate on all of it. I think you should take into account the easement that was given free. I Larry Tivy - These figures on these sheets are they relatively accurate? They have me down with 150 foot of frontage and according to the deed that I have got I have 107.97 feet. Bill Brezinsky - They should be accurate as we used the county records. The reason for the difference is that the road has been abandoned and you were assessed for half of that former road. Larry Tivy - First of all I didn It agree to any of that abandonment. Is that an 80 foot road? Bill Brezinsky - That1s a 60 foot road. Larry Tivy - One hundred seven plus 30 is 137. We still don It have it. Bill Brezinsky - Well, 150 foot frontage was what we calculated from the description we got from the county and if you question that you are welcome to fill out an appeal form and we will check it. Larry Tivy - This wonderful gift I got, 30 feet of land, when was I given that? Russell Larson - That was by resolution of the Council earlier this year. The City Council vacated that portion of Frontier Trail reserving an easement to the City for all utilities. Larry Tivy - If you are going to reserve the easement why don It you reserve the right to take care of the assessment on it? Russell Larson - Thatls a judgment call on the Council IS part. Mayor Klingelhutz - When this street was vacated a public hearing was held and people adjacent to it were notified. I am sure that if the Council would have heard any objections to it they probably would not have vacated the street, but being there were no objections the Council felt the citizens living on both sides of the street felt it was ok to have that portion of that street vacated so the resolution was passed to have that vacated and returned to the property owners. La rry Ti vy - Then I shoul d be able to go and get from the records at a 1 ater date when that notification came to me saying that the meeting was going to be hel d. Russell Larson - Yes, I have a copy of that. Fred Coulter - I see they have corrected the mistake that was made on mine and I I was just curious how will I know what my final assessment is going to be? Bill Brezinsky - Any assessments that are changed from the original roll we wonlt know what the changes are or what the exact assessments are until after the Council meets on October 6 and finally adopts the assessment roll. Anything thatls changed from the roll that was at I I I I Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing September 30, 1976 -3- City Hall the people will be notified. Fred Coulter - I am assuming all of them will be changed based on the total figure of $54,389 which shows that the work is 80% complete and that any costs after that will be borne by the City. Mayor Klingelhutz - I suppose if it ran over another $50,000 we would probably have to re-assess but I don't think that the engineerls are expecting that. Bill Brezinsky - Our feeling is that the number that we gave the Council tonight is accurate. We only have the final wearing course and miscellaneous restoration left to do and we feel we are real close on this one. I would not expect it to bere-assessed. Larry Ti vy - I noti ced that the peopl e that are being assessed ri ght here are only the people that have property that are directly abutting Frontier Trail. Is that right? Mayor Klingelhutz - That1s right. Larry Tivy - At what time was the decision made to only assess the people that are adjoining Frontier Trail rather than the people that are using Frontier Tra il ? Mayor Klingelhutz - If we would have changed that policy it would have been the first time we would have done that. The policy has been to assess abutting property owners unless it would be a collector street and >.: it WQul d-take over a TtonliiTIftatipn. Larry Tivy - We came to the fìrsrmeeting there-'wa:S-a lot of talk about the fact that Frontier Trail is used by an awful lot of people that do not live on Frontier Trail and one of the recommendations was that they put up counters to find out how many cars fly up and down Frontier Trail. What percentage is by people at the other end? Mayor Klingelhutz - My thinking on that is that we have many roads similar to that one in Chanhassen that go on into another subdivision. If the area abutting Frontier Trail would have been developed like these subdivisions that are coming in now have to have their 7 ton streets, curb and gutter and the whole works, we wouldn't have this problem today. When Sunrise Hills came in they put in their blacktop streets and curb as part of the development originally. It is hard for me to figure out how we could assess people that al ready paid for streets which other prople are using too. Russell Larson - There was no determination by the Council at that time that the project was to be assessed in the manner which Mr. Tivy described. It was a proposal that was advanced by the staff for study purposes. The determination as to how it is to be assessed is what the function of this hearing and the meeting next Wednesday is to be. It will be taken up at that time. Theengineerls have prepared the assessment roll as you have it now assessing only the abutting properties and those which have direct access to it. The district assessment was abandoned by the staff after the initial public hearing. Larry Tivy - What is the definition of direct access? Mayor Klingelhutz - Direct access would be any access directly off of that street. If there is a home that has direct access off of the street that is improved he woul d be assessed one unit. Larry Tivy - The word direct access does not describe the people that are going into Sunrise Hills. Russell Larson - No. They have another access. ) / I Roger Bongard - What is our frontage on our home? Frontier Trail? Bill Brezinsky - We assessed the frontage on Frontier Trail. Rober Bongard - Did you ever try to dri ve up therein a car? Bill - No, I'havenlt but we feel that property does have a benefit by Frontier Trail. It could gain access from Frontier Trail. This is a judgment on our part and if you disagree with us. Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing, September 30, 1976 -4- Roger Bongard - I am just asking you. We are assessed 100% on Frontier Trail. What about Great Plains Blvd. a couple of years ago. We were assessed 100% on that. Here is a letter that says, corner lots are assessed 100% on front footage and 50% on side yards abutting I a street. Mayor Klingelhutz - Do you feel, Bill, that the Bongard property could be subdivided and have a home off of Frontier Trail? Bill - Thatls our opinion and I guess this is a property that I could understand a homeowner would appeal the assessment. It is something the Council should take a look at and make a determination on it. It isnlt a clear cut thing. Gene Coulter - How much is the city paying? Mayor Klingelhutz - Nothing. Gene Coulter - They have got 50 feet of my property they are using down there and the city is the only one that uses it. Russell Larson - He is speaking of the 1 ift stati on. Gene Coul ter - That 1 ease says forever. Not five years, not ten years or 20 years, I gave it forever. I think they should pick up 50 feet of it. Mayor Kl ingelhutz - ram glad you brought that up. Russell Larson - There is no question that the city uses it. Mayor Klingelhutz - I agree 100% that that 50 feet should be picked up by the city. Fred Coulter - What was the purpose of the counters being put up if no information is going to be derived from them? Russell Larson - I have the information on the counters. Fred Coulter - When the road closed sign was put up one-third of the traffic dropped off. That would tell me that the road closed sign was put up when the construction was going on regarding the force main one-third I of the traffic dropped off. That means that two-thirds of the traffic that was on the road was more than likely those people that live in that area and could not afford to go any other way but to go through that to get to their house and the other one-third people had another way to obtain access to their house which meant Laredo. That means that one-third of the assessment should go down to Sunrise Hills since they derive some benefit from it. The City Attorney gave the results of both counters for.:the period from March 31 through April 23. There were 7353 trips over the counter on Frontier Trail for that period of time and 19,438 trips over the Laredo Drive counter for the same period. Ted deLancey - To be able to tell how much traffic, which was the purpose of the counters, was staying in Auditor's Subdivision #2 on that road I would assume you would have to have one up at one point and one at the end where it goes into Sunrise Hills. Mayor Klingelhutz - This indicates that three to four times as many people are using Laredo Drive to come out of Sunrise Hills than Frontier Trail. Ted deLancey - No, absolutely not. It tells you what the traffic is over that particular portion of Laredo Drive. It doesnlt tell you where that traffic goes. Are you telling me that all those cars that passed that coulter went to Sunrise Hills? Sally deLancey - I even used it because our road was in such bad shape because the Maintenance Department had quit trying to do anything about the road. I Ted deLancey - The test is totally invalid. All it does it tell you the number of cars that went over that particular counter. It doesnlt tell you where they got off or where they didn't get off. Councilman Neveaux - It's a question of what you want to hear. These facts did not suit what certain people wanted to hear. I I I Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing, September 30, 1976 -5- Russell Larson - The point is moot because the proposal that is before the Council is to assess those properties abutting on the improvement and no consideration has been given in this meeting tonight to assess anything in Sunrise Hills and Western Hills. Ted deLancey - I have two thi ngs I woul d 1 i ke to s tart with. I am concerned and question the rush to get this on the assessment roll when last spring it was said in no way would we have this assessment until next spring when we had the total cost in so we would know what it would be. So all of a sudden you have to have it over to the county by October 10 and all of a sudden you have got to panic to get this thing on. One year over another year doesnlt make that much difference but I would be interested to know who pushed it. The thing that really concerns me when we came to the hearing that we could come up and discuss the assessments there was nobody of a policy making situation at that meeting. All we had was the engineer there. They coul d answer technical questi ons. They coul d not answer policy questions. What I am really questioning here is who really sets the policy on this Council and for the village because when you get down to it, as I understand it from the investigations I have done, the engineer is making the recommendations, the Counci 1 has done reallY a very fast look or very inconclusive look at this point to have the type of questions that are coming up. Councilman Neveaux - I think you are prejudging. The purpose of this hearing is to hear what the engineer has to say and what the public has to say. We have not made a recommendation. Ted deLancey - But there should be some judgment before that goes in. There should be some over review before that ever goes in. I cannot see why for example we have changes in lot sizes, I cannot see why Mr. Coulter, which I think he should be excused from assessment on this. Mr. Bongard who has adjoining property and for all practical purposes has the same grade on it is assessed. I don't this type of thing should even come in and mistakes that should never be there. We talked about several things last spring of which one of them was the use of the road. I am not an attorney. We have two attorney's here who I am sure can clarify this, but from just a logic sense what you are doing from the way I see it is that you are assessing people on a half basis who do not have direct access up in the front part of Frontier Trail on the basis that they have a benefitted use from that property. That is my understanding basically the legal jargen without being precise. If that is true if you have the authority which I am not questioning, your authority to assess people on a partial basis by the benefitted use they get then the other people who get a benefitted use i .e.thë,þeQple :':iti Sunrise Hills who we tried to determine by counters how many there weré, should also be assessed because they get a benefitted us age. Now, if there is no benefi tted usage to those people then there certainly should be no objection by this Council and I certainly will sponsor an amendment on it, to close that road with posts at the end so the people of Sunrise Hills whõcHre' not using it and who are not benefitted by it, can1t go up and down the road. The point is moot. Mayor Klingelhutz - I guess your point is moot on closing the road Ted. Ted deLancey - The point is not moot however, if you can tax people on a benefitted basis on a half basis up there on need that the people down there are getting some need from it. I can understand the Council's desire not to get into a flack situation with Sunrise Hills but I happen to have talked to not one but several people who said they would be willing to share. I would like to raise this beca~5e I think it is a serious question because those people are obviously getting a benefitted use and I think the Council if they duck this issue is ducking part of their responsibility Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing September 30, 1976 -6- and I think the engineer should not be setting the policy on the basis of assessment or recommending it which is what happened in coming out here. Russell Larson says there is no benefitted I usage, however I can wave at Russ if I get the right time almost every day coming in and our of that road. Russell Larson - What opinion did I advance now so we get the record straight? Ted deLancey - You said earlier that there was no benefitted usage in Sunrise Hills. Russell Larson - No special benefit. Ted deLancey - Thatls what you said but you are taxing people up further on the road on that basis and on that principle which is a principle of law. What is the basis of the half assessment? Mayor Klingelhutz - Let's get the record straight on the half assessment. That has been passed by resolution by this Council. Formerly corner lots were assessed full assessments on both sides of their property. This Council felt it was not fair to assess corner lots a full assessment on both sides. We said the front footage of a corner lot would be assessed full and a side yard one half assessment. This has been policy of this Council for the past three, four, five, six years. We felt a corner lot does not benefit a double assessment. Ted deLancey - I agree with it totally. I agree they should be taxed. What I am saying is there is also a benefitted usage in Sunrise Hills which is what we tried to prove, asked you to prove, and which you have agreed to do by having the counters up. Mayor Klingelhutz - I guess what we felt, Ted, was that we had many areas similar to Frontier Trail in Chanhassen that have street improvements on them that someone else will be benefitting from them. I heard your wife say before when your road got a little bad she I went down Laredo. She had a benefi t out of it. Sally deLancey - You put a counter up now and see how the traffic has improved since the blacktopping went in yesterday. Mayor Klingelhutz - I can't for the life of me see you are saying the engineer sets the policy. The Council has set the policy and the engineer is setting the assessments according to policy the Council has set. We are having this public assessment hearing to hear what you have to say so that when we have our meeting next Wednesday night we can make a decision on how we are going to assess the people on Frontier Trail. The engineerls assessment has been past policy of the Chanhassen Council. Councilman Neveaux - Using your logic for a moment, in the event say Sunrise Hills ties into a road coming down from Carver Beach and everybody has an access to County Road 17, would that mean everybody along that road should pay and we should assess all the way down to 78th? Ted deLancey - I would be very willing to pay a portion of any benefitted property that we use. I do not feel that the straight footage on just the front footage assessment is the way to go. I have said that for years. Councilman Neveaux - You feel that the existing city assessment policy for roads is totally in error? Ted deLancey - Yes and I have said that for yeßrs. Mayor Klingelhutz - If your road would have Q~en improved ten years ago and the porti on from 78th Street "'to Fred Coulter IS woul d have been I improved at this time, do you feel then that you should be assessed to pay for that road? I I , I Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing September 30~ 1976 -7- Ted deLancey - Yes. I think the decision is difficult to the degree of assessment is difficult. It's a difficult decision but I am sorry that's part of life but the fact that we use it we should be assessed for it. The last time we had an assessment on this where it was tested with two counters to show what came in from Fred Coulterls property down and what went on to Sunrise Hills it was a 1/3, 2/3. Two thirds of it was Sunrise Hills. Mayor Klingelhutz - Laredo Drive wasnlt there then. Ted deLancey - I am saying that's the accurate one we have. Mayor Klingelhutz - Now we checked it on Laredo Drive and on Frontier and we found just the opposite of what it was at that time. Ted deLancey - I have no question that there would be a difference with Laredo Drive open but I happen to say that your whole testing procedure was wrong because you had no base point. Russell Larson - You are asking, Ted, that the Council change its previous policy extending back as long as I have been in official life here, 11 years, from a front foot assessment to an area wide assessment. I am sure the Council has received your views. Mayor Klingelhutz - I think we all understand what you are saying Ted. The way the assessments were set up has been past policy of this Council. I don't like the fact that you are saying that the city engineer set the policy here. I can't for the life of me see how you can say that Bi 11 Brezinsky sets pol icy as far as these assessments . Ted deLancey - Because he came in with the recommendations to you~ now possibly I stand corrected if those are the guidelines that you gave him before, and I still say that I think your policy is wrong and we have gone along absolutely beautifully like a bulldozer right into a wall, we never look at anything creative, we do the same thing that we have done. When Dick Lyman was running this territory and was a heck of a lot more responsive to the citizens requests than this Council is. Itls just not 1 istening. Mayor Klingelhutz - I think probably your feeling is we haven't been responsive to you but I think if you take the citizens of Chanhassen as a whole I would have to debate that. Let's get on with the assessment hearing. There are other people that want to be heard. Gene Coulter - I cannot find an assessment roll where Lots 21, 8, 9, and 20 were assessed for streets. I am a fi rm bel iever that everyone pays for a road and I just want to know what project they were on. Mayor Klingelhutz - They were assessed on the original Sunrise Hills project. Gene Coulter - Did you dig out that information? Did you see it in black and wh~te? I want to see it in black and white where these [Ots have paid for a road. If they weren't assessed I think they should be. Pete Linsmayer - Where in the law does it say that we cannot entertain changing the assessment procedure? Russell Larson - It is a policy decision by the Council. Gene Coulter - I have to take the blame for that because I believe I was mayor when that policy was established. Peter Linsmayer - I think it is obvious to the Council and to everybody here that the peopl e that"are on, thi s particular road feel that thi s assessment and the mannertn which' U is being assessed is very very unfair not only to the amount '9f'mo~y that we are talking about but also to the usage and I think the Council should take under advisement the changing of that particular type ~f ordinance or whatever you call it. What does it take in order to change that? Donlt the people have any right to tell the Council this is wrong? Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing September 30, 1976 -8- Mayor Klingelhutz - You have a right to do that. One way you could tell us it is wrong is by running for the Council and getting elected and changing the policy according to your desires. I I wouldn't say so much about it but we have put in another road to Sunrise Hills that was completely assessed to the abutting property owners except where it was increased from 7 to 9 ton, how in the world can we say to those people that were assessed for that property, now you are going to help pay for another road back there? Ted deLancey - With courage. Councilman Neveaux - I don1t think we can ever find a perfect assessment policy thatls going to be equitable to everybody. My question would be, how many times should we assess a piece of property for a street? If we put in a subdivision and put a street in front of it and then extend it and then we assess those people and these people again, we extend it again we assess those people and these peopl e and these peopl e, how long can it go on? What is ri ght and what is fair? We put in a street in front of your house and you pay for it baby. That's it. If it is designed to handle more traffic than any other street in the city then the city should pick up that extra. Mayor Klingelhutz - If we would have sent the people in Sunrise Hills notice of this assessment hearing and said, may you people are each going to be assessed $250 for this road, we would have had to have the meeting over at the school and I'll bet you people sitting here that are complaining about our method of assessment would be out numbered three to one. Those people would say, your policy is okay, we paid for our roads, these people didnlt, let them " pay for one. I Sally deLancey - I pleaded with you to please do something about dips in the road, not bumps. The blacktop has been on one day and we have already had noise that you wouldnlt believe from screeching tires. That was ignored. I woul d 1 i ke to ask that you put out counters now before you come to a final determination on assessments, one coming into Frontier Trail at Fred Coulters and one going out at Frontier Trail at Hughes. Bill Brezinsky - Based on a report that we had at that time, Bill Schoell gave a report and recommended that we not use them and we have sent for another report from England. We have not received that report. It isn It too late to put the bumps or the dips in. We donlt have the final wearing course on. It won It be put on until next spring. That could yet be done and when we get the information we will get it to the Council and they can make the decision. Sally deLancey - We presented you with a petition, 80% of whom said they didnlt want this expensive a project. Now you are objecting to all of the abuse, itls ridiculous. You should have known you were going to get it. Mayor Klingelhutz - We probably have had a petition from the rest of the citizens of Chanhassen telling us, why the hell are you spending so much money on Frontier Trail every year. Why don It you fix the I thing up like you do other streets in Chanhassen and assess the abutting property owners? I I I Frontier Trail Assessment Hearing September 30, 1976 -9- Mrs. DeJoode - We wish to protest the 90 foot minimum. We have considerably less feet than that. We just don't feel it's fair to us. If we had 50 feet and my neighbor had 100 feet he has twice the value in his property and will get twice the money when he sells but is paying only about $100 more in assessments. Bill Brezinsky - We suggested a minimum benefit for lots which gain access from Frontier Trai 1 was equal to 90 feet of frontage. Mrs. DeJoode 1 ives on a lot about 60 feet wide that does abut on Frontier Trail. The Council should be thinking about, is a 90 foot frontage a reasonable number to use. Mrs. DeJoode - I really hope they can slow the traffic down. Councilman Kurvers - Jim Thompson asked me if there was going to be an apron put on because he has partly cement driveway and the road was narrowed from what it was originally so there is a space between his cemented driveway and the present street. Bill Brezinsky - The apron will be extended to match what he had before. Pete Linsmayer - Why is it so imperative that this decision be made before the 10th? Mayor Klingelhutz - The lOth of October is the final date that the county will accept assessments to be put on the tax rolls for the following year. If we didnlt put it on the tax rolls this year we would have to charge the interest from the time of the start of this project and add it on to the assessments. Councilman Neveaux - The thing that I am sure all of us on the Council are thinking about, that old adage of the Council acting arbitrarily and capri ci ous ly. Sally deLancey - You did that when you assigned this project. Councilman Neveaux - I personally donlt think so. Sally deLancey - The petition that was presented to you, yes you did. You went against the people. Councilman Neveaux - We perhaps went against the wishes of the 33 but there are more than 33 people in the city. We are looking about changing a policy that has affected all of the citizens in the city and if we do, we are talking about weighing how an assessment procedure is affecting 33 peo'Pl e as opposed to how it has affected the other 6300 previously or will affect thousands to come and to delay that decision a year and then if it ends up that in fact the present policy is the most equitable then we have caused you an additional $4000 expense and you wouldn't be happy about that. Mayor Klingelhutz - We aren't going to make a decision tonight. Wednesday night is the time we have set to assess these assessment hearings if we are going to assess them. A motion was made by Councilman Kurvers and seconded by Councilman Neveaux to close the hearing. The following voted in favor: Mayor Klingelhutz, Councilmen Hobbs, Neveaux, Kurvers, and Waritz. No negative votes. Motion carried. Meeting adjourned at 9:45 p.m. Don As hwo rth Clerk-Administrator