1g. Minutes •
11
11 CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 5, 1990
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. . The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Workman, Councilwoman Dimler
and Councilman Johnson
' STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Elliott Knetsch, Todd Gerhardt, Paul Krauss, Gary
Warren, Todd Hoffman, and Scott Harr
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
approve the agenda with the following additions: Councilwoman Dimler wanted to
discuss West 78th Street under Council Presentations and Don Ashworth wanted to
' discuss the bond sale results under Adminstrative Presentations.
The Council asked for legal counsel regarding replacing Bill Boyt's position on
the City Council with a newly elected Councilmen.
Elliott Knetsch: Well you'd actually be appointing him for the unexpired term
of Bill's term and then they would take office pursuant to their election so you
could do that if you wanted to make that appointment.
Councilman Johnson: What type of vote does it take? 3/5 or 4/5?
iElliott Knetsch: I'm not sure if it's an extraordinary vote or not. I could
refer to Code if you .want me to.
1 Mayor Chmiel: I don't think it is. You can check that out but I don't think
there really is. I think it's a regular 3/5. Do you have any problems with
that Jay?
Councilman Johnson: Well, the main issue going on right now is the budget which
whoever it is will not be familiar with the intricacies that we've been familiar
' with going through the 4 or 5 work sessions we have and so there'd be a problem
there. With all other issues, it'd just give them some good learning experience
before January.
Mayor Chmiel: That's my point Because this will give them at least a few
council meetings running to get into what we're doing.
Councilman Johnson: Yeah. There's only 2 meetings and just like when you all
got elected, you all came and got full packets I believe for the 2 meetings
before and came and sat in the audience and I did the same thing when I got
elected 4 years ago and I'm sure whoever gets elected is going to do the same
thing. But I have no problem with doing that. I think going with the one that
gets the top votes makes sense. I don't think it makes a lot of difference
either way.
Councilman Workman: That person may not want.
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11 City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
Councilman Johnson: It's up to them too.
Mayor Chmiel: It'd be a good learning experience.
Councilwoman Dimler: That's why I thought we should discuss it. You know it
depends upon whether they want to or not.
' Councilman Johnson: Well, we can't draft them.
Councilwoman Dimler: Their term doesn't really start until the first of the
' year.
Councilman Johnson: Right, but if they'd like to, we can offer that to them.
Councilwoman Dimler: Right.
' PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT: PRESENTATION OF MAPLE LEAF AWARD TO CLIFFORD WHITEHILL.
Mr. Whitehall did not show up at the meeting.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
a. Second and Final Reading of an Ordinance Amending Section 20-409, General }
' Development Regulations, Wetland Ordinance.
b. Second and Final Reading of an Ordinance Amending Chapter 14, Regarding
Consumption of Intoxicating Liquor within City Parks.
c. Resolution $90-140: Approve Contract Amendment No. 2 for North Side Parking
Lot Improvement Project 87-17.
' d. Resolution 190-141: Accept Streets and Utilities in Trappers Pass 3rd
Addition, Project 89-13.
e. Resolution #90-142: Accept Street Improvements for Wood Duck Lane
cul-de-sac, Pheasant Hills 4th Addition, Project 87-8.
' f. Resolution 190-143: Approve Contract Amendment No. 1 for Well No. 5,
Project 89-4A.
g. Approval of Accounts.
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h. City Council Minutes dated October 22, 1990
Planning Commission Minutes dated October 17, 1990
Public Safety Commission Minutes dated October 11, 1990
i. Resolution 190-144: Approve Joint Assessment Contract with Carver County
' for 1991/92.. ;
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City Council Meeting - November S, 1990 It
j. Sale of Property, Redmond Products.
1 All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
! 'VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
VACATION OF A PORTION OF STREET RIGHT-OF-WAY OF FOREST AVENUE AND ORIOLE LANE. •
APPLICANTS: ZIEGLER. REED, SCHIFERLI AND GOWEN.
Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, this was on your agenda at the last meeting and if
you'll recall there was some confusion that cropped up with different property
owners having different points of view over what should be vacated and what
they'd like to see. You continued action on this at the last meeting. Staff
had an opportunity to meet with several of the applicants requesting the
vacation. We also had meetings in-house deciding what we thought was the right
recommendation for you and we think we got it worked out. It's a little
confusing but let me go over what we're coming down with. The original proposal
was to vacate Forest and Oriole. There was mention made at the meeting that ,
there's some utilities in Oriole. That's correct. There are. There's a storm
sewer that outlets into the future park and goes all the way down. As we were
researching this too, we realized that Oriole was needed to provide access to
this parcel that's owned by Ziegler and in addition, there's a long term goal
for the park to have a trail connection from the east coming down Oriole into
the park where it goes through the wetland in some sort of a floating bridge
type of arrangement. Come back out through the new park entrance. Based upon
all those discussions, we concluded that Oriole should not be vacated. What
we're proposing is that Forest Avenue be vacated as illustrated. In exchange
for the vacation the Schiferli's have agreed to provide the City with a 40 foot
access into the future park. Basically swapping a little bit of the land for
the vacation. What the proposal calls for is that there would be sufficient
right-of-way provided to provide for a cul-de-sac if one is needed at some point
in the future but there's no desire at this point in time to build the street
to full city standards. What we envision having happen is a gravel or lower
quality access road into the park being constructed there. If development
requires it at some point in the future, that street could be installed upon
petition by the neighbors. We are recommending that Forest Avenue be vacated as
illustrated with the conditions in the report.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Paul. Is there anyone else wanting to address this? '
Please state your name and your address.
Dale Hanson: Yes, my name is Dale Hanson and I recently Kelly Ziegler. We live
on the corner of 64th Street and Oriole Avenue. I guess the one question we had
is, there is that bike path, whatever that is, supposed to be proposed on Oriole
Avenue. Is that correct? That is what we had heard it was supposed to start in
1991 which is next summer. The construction of that path is going to start.
Well one thing we're not concerned about but what we want to know is how is it
going to be controlled? If it's like an 8 foot wide bike path, how are they
going to control vehicles from going in there because some of that is lowland
back there on the property and if it's not controlled, vehicles could rip up
our, if they decide to swing around down there on our land, they could rip some
of that up.
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City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
Paul Krauss: Well our Parks Director is here tonight but normally what we do is
11 we sink bollards, posts in so vehicles can't get by but pedestrians and bicycles
can.
Dale Hanson: If that is a trail going in, that will be part of it?
Paul Krauss: I don't know. Todd, do have the design of that in hand yet? Or
will that will be a detailed design next year?
Todd Hoffman: Yeah. The portion of the trail along Oriole.. .taken a look at
but. . .installed in the center of the trail and. . .on either side or installation
of bollards and rocks prohibiting. ..
Dale Hanson: Is that a proposal now or when you know, what kind of timeframe
has anybody set for putting a path in there? I mean is 1991 an actual date
where they're going to start looking at that?
Paul Krauss: Again, I'd defer to Mr. Hoffman. The schedule for the park calls
for it's construction next year.
Todd Hoffman: The initial phase of the park construction within the park
itself. Whether or not that trail segment is part of that initial phase
construction is still yet to be determined.
Dale Hanson: Okay. That was a concern we had. When that bike path is there
that there is some kind of restriction so trucks and cars can't get back there.
Mayor Chmiel: I agree with that Dale because I've had other complaints in town
' and we have installed those specific items now and it has eliminated that given
problem. But that's a good point and I'm glad you brought that up.
Councilman Johnson: We use almost the same system that Hennepin Parks uses.
It's basically half a gate that covers half the trail. We've got one in several
different of our parks.
Gary Warren: Near Mountain.
Councilman Johnson: Near Mountain, yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: Gary, would you just like to address this?
' Gary Warren: I was just going to say what Jay is saying. We install half a
gate so that public works can access this area if we have an emergency. You can
see this in Lake Ann Park we have them. Near Mountain between Pleasant View
Road and Near Mountain Blvd. or whatever the road is there and also up near our
Murray Hill water tower we have a gate of that nature and it's worked very well.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? If not, any discussion by Council?
' Councilman Johnson: Staff's done a good job of bringing this in and meeting the
citizen's concerns. Looks good.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. No concerns, can I have a motion?
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Councilwoman Dimler: I move that we close the public hearing. I
Councilman Workman: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: It 's not a hearing.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, it's the continuation. I made the motion last time
to table and you told me we had to continue the public hearing.
Councilwoman Dialer moved, Councilman Workman seconded to close the public 11 hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was
closed.
Resolution *90-145: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to ,
approve the Vacation Request *88-4 for Forest Avenue with the following
conditions:
1. A 40 foot easement shall be provided across the westerly lot line of the '
Schiferli's property to provide access for the Herman Field Park.
2. The Oriole Lane right-of-way shall be maintained in it's current status to 1
protect existing storm sewer improvements and to provide future trail access
to Herman Field.
3. Those portions of a 60 foot radius outside Forest Avenue right-of-way shall
be dedicated as easement across the Schiferli property for a turnaround.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. t
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: '
Mayor Chmiel: Next item on the agenda is Council Presentations. I think I've
probably already have stated my case with the largest vote getter. Ursula? ,
Councilwoman Dimler: We don't move on that one tonight though huh?
Mayor Chmiel: Well, I suppose. '
Councilman Johnson: There's nothing to move on until we ask them.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, we probably should find out whether or not they should or
if they want to. I'd like to get their opinion as well.
Councilman Johnson: Dick Wing might have a problem with his fire department '
scheduling if he happens to be the largest vote getter.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't think that's a problem Jay only because he's going to be
available for Monday night meetings all the time.
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Councilman Johnson: But he hasn't figured out how he's going to do it. Whether
he's quitting the fire department or what. I was discussing that with I believe
him.
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11 Councilman Workman: He better quit the fire department because I used that
excuse for not joining.
Councilman Johnson: I used that one too.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, West 78th.
Councilwoman Dimler: I wanted to bring up West 78th Street again because I
continue to get calls and I'm sure the rest of you have too. I think we should
start seriously looking at making some corrections. It's nice to talk about it
' and kick it about forever but we've got to do something at some point. Again,
the narrowness of the street seems to be a problem. The intersection for
people's guests. They don't know which road to take as they're going east. So
' we've got to straighten that out at some point. Also the median and the
vegetation there continues to be a problem. I did notice that they were working
on it this week. What was being done there?
' Gary Warren: Schafer's been around town making warranty repairs to several of
the concrete portions of the City's sidewalks and curbs and such that have
settled and cracked. Specifically on West 78th Street by Great Plains we had a
sewer trench settlement that because of the difficulty of all of the utilities
in that area, we couldn't just dig it up and recompact it because we'd still
have the same problem so we decided to let that area to continue to settle over
the last 2 years and we've been filling it gradually. Now through our
' measurements we've confirmed that it's done settling so Schafer has pulled out
the curbing, replaced it to grade and they've milled off bituminous and put on a
new wear course so that's warranty repair and I believe they finished that
today.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, it looked like it. I don't know what we proposed to
' do about it but we're going through a budget process. Do we need to budget
something for corrections?
Councilman Johnson: I would think that would be mostly HRA.
Don Ashworth: Well I believe that you have it scheduled for what, the next
agenda?
Gary Warren: We did employ, Stregar is working on a report for us where they
evaluated the downtown section as far as traffic capacity, signalization or
' traffic control measures. We've had some preliminary input from them but
they're working on a report that we're supposed to receive Friday and we intend
to bring that to the Council for a look see at what they're recommending. That
addresses West 78th Street pretty much from Great Plains all the way over to
CR 17.
Councilwoman Dimler: Which is the segment that most people are complaining
' about.
Councilman Johnson: Where are we at for the stop signs for Laredo? As long as
we're talking about West 78th.
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Councilman Workman: I guess I've heard a little bit of debate and discussion
about that and I came out and said, the calls are going to continue to come and
I guess I just want to make myself clear again that I think stop signs are fine
and if we can control some things but I think we've been waiting for that report
for some months now and I think, I don't know. Maybe the report's going to say
put up one stop sign at Laredo and then everything will be fine but it seems to
me that the complaints, and I'm glad Ursula brought it up, are much more
complicated on that road taking into account the median. I think the median
looks, looks nice and everything but people are having movement problems getting
on it. Making lefts and so I think the problem is so much bigger in scope than
just one stop sign at Laredo. So while I don't disagree that a stop sign might
be appropriate at Laredo, I don't want to go ahead and do it little by little by
little and then this problem, we're just bandaiding the problem. We've been
talking about this for a year I think and it has been kind of frustrating
talking about it. When you're going east in front of the hotel and you're going
to turn onto Laredo and make a left, the bushes are getting real big there. Or
when you're coming out of Market and you're going to make a left onto West 78th,
the bushes are getting big there. You can't see. I've had to put the pedal
down pretty hard because I didn't see somebody and so maybe it's all coming
through. The salt's not killing the plants now and they're growing. I don't
know what the long range future is but the calls are coming and people are
frustrated and I know it's going to get worse.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm wondering if it's a possibility to open this up for 11 public hearing. Get public input again and go from there.
Gary Warren: What Councilman Workman has said is sort of the track that we have
been following here. We recognize, in fact that the installation of stop signs
could actually do more harm than good right now because right now the
opportunity that the crossing movement has for getting onto West 78th Street is
usually the window that they get between car platoons from signals from TH 5 and
over at CR 17. You put an all way stop and that has the effect of dampening
that out so that you lose that window. You get more cars coming but they're all
together. Stregars preliminary thoughts and what we expect to see in the report
is that we currently can justify a signal at Great Plains and West 78th Street
so on the east end, our favorite intersection, and we're having them take a
specific look at Market Blvd. now that we have Market Square as a tenant so to
speak. You know we've been up in the air. This has been held off partly
because of the Target proposals and yes, it's dragged on but we finally have a
fix on what we think the traffic generaters are going to be in the area and
that's been important. So we're looking at the Stregar report to give us, as
Tom mentioned, an overall concept for this downtown area.
Mayor Chmiel: When will that be ready?
Gary Warren: As I mentioned earlier, we're expecting a copy of the report by ,
Friday.
Mayor Chmiel: This coming Friday? ,
Gary Warren: Yes. i
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11 City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
11 Councilman Johnson: In that do they consider also that in 1992 we'll be
realigning TH 101 to where TH 101 will no longer be going through that
intersection? Currently we're saying we could, it sounds like preliminarily you
talked to them and they're saying we might be able to justify a light at this
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intersection right now but that's carrying all of the TH 101 traffic. We're
trying to reroute TH 101 to where it doesn't run by a grade school and two -
churches. When that happens, is that going to be addressed? I just want to
make sure that you get that that is addressed there. That the light will still
be appropriate 2 years from now when we reroute TH 101. Those are real
expensive pieces of equipment to stick in and then not be appropriate later.
Gary Warren: We expect that they'll run from $60,000.00 to $100,000.00.
Councilman Johnson: Right. It's expensive.
Gary Warren: We have asked them to address that. We also have pointed out a
front and I think we've talked here as well that the 1991 construction
' improvements that we're proposing, which the north leg improvements now are 1992
but the connection of Market, the southerly leg to TH 101 we expect will have
some impacts as well. We are dealing with a dynamic changing traffic
environment here that yeah, we want to be responsive and deal with it and I
think some of the turning and some of the actions going on now is that people
are getting frustrated because of the magnitude of traffic and that's being
compounded somewhat also by the construction traffic on TH 5. People are still
recognizing this as a short cut over to northbound TH 101. So we've had the
counters out . Stregar I think is putting a good look at this whole scenario
with the changing environment that's potential here and it should give us our 1
' best look as far as whether it's signals or whatever, what 's appropriate.
Councilman Workman: What I worry about is that, and if I were coming down CR 17
everyday and approaching TH 5 and I had to get onto TH 5 to go to Eden Prairie,
1 it's always going to be a better idea to go through downtown than to stop at
that light, make a left, get the light by, you know it's just the comfort factor
would tell me, even if there's a light there it's going to be better for me to
' go into downtown. And what I see is perhaps maybe something, and we can blame
this all on BRW again but it appears to me we have a couple of significant
problems that can really never be corrected in the city. One, Laredo has heavy
' traffic coming on it and when it comes down to a certain point, it has to go
right or left onto a troubled street and that's not going to change. . Then
secondly, and this is why I didn't want just the Laredo sign, Kerber Blvd. comes
down. Market Blvd. and Kerber should be matched up somehow. You know what
' I mean? The activity that we want on Market Blvd. . What people are doing is
coming down Kerber Blvd. and then they've got to make a jog and a jog if they're
going to go down Market or whatever so they've got to get on. There's no way
II out. So we're funneling all the traffic from north Chanhassen down a couple of
streets and I don't think we'll ever be able to fix those problems you know so
there's an awful lot of traffic that's going to come down Kerber forever and
' there's never going to be a through street unless we open up Monterey and that's
impossible. It's going to go up a bridge or something but.
Councilman Johnson: Put an elevator. Car elevator.
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City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
Councilman Workman: We need a bridge but so you know what I mean? Maybe we'll I
never be able to fix it because it's always going to come down Kerber Blvd. and
they're always going to, and that's a big wide left you've got to make there
really fast. And that was the problem and I don't know that we're going to be
able to fix that but I hope this report maybe can.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm also concerned about the safety factors. You know
we've got people coming to town now with Country Suites and so forth that are
strangers to this town. Some of us have gotten used to the intersection and we
know which way to go. Strangers do not. There's a big potential for accidents
right there. The other thing is, if you have a police or somebody behind, an
emergency vehicle behind you, you can't pull off anywhere. Where are you going
to get out of their way?
Gary Warren: They're 16 foot lanes that were designed. ,
Councilwoman Dimler: I mean you have to drive up on the median.
Gary Warren: The concept was, there was a choice that the City did make. I mean
in defense of BRW, they did propose a wide open section so the city did make a
conscience decision to put the medians in. There's a certain benefit in that in
channelizing the traffic to help people realize that there are defined
intersections. I expect, it's like any road system around, we always have
problems with it no matter how much improvements you try to do. Some things you
can't do 100% fix on. We certainly can look at trimming back bushes. I think
we did some good improvement over at Great Plains to clear up that sight
distance problem and if there are other areas, we certainly can take a look at 11 that . Stregar's preliminary comments to Paul and I last week were that they
believe their preliminary numbers certainly support the fact that we need 4
lanes west of Kerber over to West 78th Street and then possibly from Market to
the west but that from a projection standpoint, they are not comfortable at this II point in time outright saying that there are any substantial construction
modifications that should be done in the existing downtown section. The
capacity is there. We have protected left turn lanes at the intersections. We
have I guess what should be suitable here into the near future and I think that
there has to be a commitment obviously as the city develops to continue to be
doing our traffic counts and evaluating that. We are restricted by an 80 foot
right-of-way which, and you have Medical Arts built right up against it and
there it is so there are some constraints that we've had to live with.
Councilwoman Dimler: As a last resort can we take the median out? '
Councilman Johnson: I think. ..quite mature on the system yet either. When the
system matures, you know the original design concept was that the Taco Shop was
not going to be the main entrance into town anymore. The main entrance was
moving down to the Holiday/Amoco/American Legion corner. Great Plains corner
and that when TH 101 got rerouted and everything else, that the main flow of
traffic will be going like this instead of cutting through in front of the ,
shopping center. And just all the changes have not occurred as of yet. If we
do end up with a street light at Market, that will create those windows of
opportunity for both Kerber and Laredo. I don't know what they're saying on
that intersection yet but my gut feeling is that's where we'll see the two
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City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
lights, at Great Plains and at Market and between those two will open up Laredo
11 and Kerber.
Councilwoman Dimler: Well my recommendation would be that we would make it a
' priority item and work as fast as possible on resolving some of these issues.
Mayor Chmiel: I'd also like to see what the counts were at those intersections.
' Councilman Johnson: It should be in the report right?
Gary Warren: Yeah, the counts will be in there. We've looked at the warrants.
' We've asked them to project, albeit it's qn a straight line basis we've asked
them to project that if they don't meet warrants now, when would you expect them
in the future. I think the other thing to keep in mind is that the
' improvements, when you look at typical roadway improvements, maybe you're
looking at a 10 to 20 year type lifespan out of some of these things and out of
this window for the downtown, we're in our third year now I guess of the
' downtown improvements and as things develop, I think we'll get a good fix on
when other modifications might be warranted, if any in this downtown section
here.
' Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I think, as Ursula had indicated, to get this pulled
together as quickly as we can so we can alleviate the given problems within,
Don?
' Don Ashworth: Yes. I think we should be looking at a work session probably
with the HRA in the near future. The consultant is back and they've come back
with again some alternatives as far as entry area, entry monuments. I would
' anticipate that that work should be ready within, sometime within the next 2
weeks. What Gary is saying, the engineering report is ready. I think the
timing should be right for a special meeting.
Councilwoman Dimler: Could we also have a public hearing on this or have public
come and give us their input? I mean they're the ones out there with the
' problems.
Mayor Chmiel: Well it should always be open to the public anyway.
Councilwoman Dimler: Right. I mean I think we have to publicize the meeting
and encourage them to come. Anyone who has a complaint or a concern.
' Councilman Johnson: Construction season's over. There's not a huge hurry right
now. You know it doesn't have to be done right in November or whatever. I
think we've got some time for us to look over the data, come up with a
' reasonable plan of what do we do and then.
Mayor Chmiel: That's what we're doing.
' Councilman Johnson: We can then bring the public in.
Councilwoman Dimler: But we can use their input as well?
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Councilman Johnson: Oh yeah. I think .this construction, really the
construction this last week down there on that intersection is really angered a
lot of people. There was a lot of people thinking, oh here's the city spending
money again but I say, hey. It's warranty work you know. I don't know how many
people I told that was warranty work.
Councilwoman Oimler: They'll know it now when they watch the program on
television.
Councilman Johnson: I'm surprised at how many do watch it.
Gary Warren: Just two points of qualifications, as long as we have the. . . One
is the Schafer traffic and I know the Mayor is aware of this. Construction
traffic that is putting the fill work on the embankment here on the new bridge,
that traffic will no longer be making U turns on CR 17 which has been a hazard
and a problem. Schafer will be coming into the downtown on West 78th Street and
using Market to get back out to eastbound TH 5 so we worked that out with them
and they'll be responsible for abiding by the speed limits and keeping things
clean and this nature but a No U. Turn sign has been placed up by the County so
public safety will be enforcing that so I think we've resolved one sore spot.
The other is that we do have, and this is shifting gears now. TH 101 and
Pioneer, we have a 4 way stop installed. That is up now as an interim measure
until we get a chance to work through the design or the State does with the
County. ,
Councilman Johnson: When did it go up?
Gary Warren: I was just told today so I. '
Councilman Johnson: Because I was down there at 2:00 and it wasn't up.
Gary Warren: Well, it's definitely up. i
Councilman Johnson: They have the signs announcing that and they have the post
in the ground but the sign is, I'm going in there after this meeting I'm driving
down there so we'll see.
Councilman Workman: Make sure you stop. ,
Councilman Johnson: That's the thing. I thought usually when they put a new
stop sign up, that they put it up. Covered it and warned you for a while that
it's going to come up because most people who for 10 years have been driving
through that intersection may not even see that stop sign and go right on
through it.
Mayor Chmiel: One point too that Tom brought up on visual obstruction.
Hopefully in designing this these people are well aware that they should be
sitting in a car to come up with conclusions rather than standing at those
intersections reviewing it because there is a difference in height factors
there.
Gary Warren: Certainly. We use 3 1/2 feet basically in our design for sight ,
lines and such.
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11 City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
Councilman Johnson: Yeah, they have like a little stick. I've seen them out on
11 the road. They sit there and look at it. But they definitely have to use
something other than a Chevy van.
' Mayor Chmiel: I think we've had enough discussions on 78th. We'll move right
onto the next agenda item which is Administrative Presentations.
' ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
A. REVIEW OF CANDIDATES FOR SENIOR COMMISSION, PLANNING DIRECTOR.
' Paul Krauss: I'll be real brief Mr. Mayor. We've created a Senior Commission
with 7 members and we need to staff it. We did have advertisements in the
paper. We've gotten an additional response from people who were on the Seniors
' Task Force has indicated a willingness to be on it. So basically we have 9
applicants for the 7 positions. Normally as we do on the Planning Commission,
the Planning Commission would interview them and short list it and you would get
' the short listed candidates for your own review but in this case we don't have a
commission to screen them for you so I guess I'm looking for some direction as
to what you'd like to do and tonight, make your selections off of that and we
can schedule these people for interviews. We did have, it's actually a fairly
' good mix. We got some from the Senior Needs Task Force. We've got some seniors
who just wanted to serve and we've got some social service providers that live
in the city that interact with seniors in senior programs. So I think you have
' a good group to pick from.
Mayor Chmiel: Right . I agree. I went over each of those and I sort of picked
out the ones I thought would be on it. I didn't know we'd have an additional
one. But the more participation, the better I see it as well.
Paul Krauss: I should tell you that Emma, who was a good member of the Senior
' Task Force indicated her willingness to serve although she was somewhat, I would
almost classify her as a standby candidate because she was concerned about her
ability to take on a prolonged assignment.
Councilman Workman: Does this mean we'll have to.
Councilwoman Dimler: We have to choose since we have one more than we need.
' Councilman Workman: Does that mean we should go ahead and interview or?
1 Councilwoman Dimler: I think so. To be fair.
Councilman Workman: I don't know how to make a decision.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yeah, set up an interview probably.
Paul Krauss: Would you like to do it before a Council meeting or something like
that?
Mayor Chmiel: I think it would be good to do it prior to the council meeting.
Probably start it at 6:00.
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City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
If
Councilman Johnson: I do know of one other potential applicant but it depends
IF
upon the race tomorrow because I was holding off. If I lose tomorrow to Don,
then I was planning on applying for this senior needs task force also.
Councilman Workman: You can anway. 1
Councilman Johnson: I know but as the Mayor, I was just planning on attending
in a non-voting capacity anyway rather than having an actual assignment but if
I'm not the Mayor.
Councilwoman Dimler: You can still do that though. I
Councilman Johnson: As a visitor. As a citizen visitor but so, depending upon
that, I was going to put my application in on Wednesday but I didn't want to do
it until I found out what happened Tuesday night. '
Councilman Workman:* Maybe neither of you will be mayor. I'm writing in Ursula.
Councilwoman Dimler: I agree with you Tom. '
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, do you have direction?
Paul Krauss: We'll schedule that.
Mayor Chmiel: Schedule that and have them come in and we'll come up with a
conclusion.
Councilwoman Dimler: Could I ask Paul a question? You indicated in the budget,
I was reading through it and I was real concerned that, we're asking for money
for a commission. Do any of our other commissions have money?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure. ,
Councilwoman Dimler: Who?
Paul Krauss: Well, the Planning Commission is the one I work with. I know they 1
have a budget. Recycling has one.
Don Ashworth: Public Safety does. HRA. I
Councilwoman Dimler: New to me.
Paul Krauss: It's minimal.
Councilman Johnson: Oh yeah. It 's a separate line item in our budget. There's
a separate page.
MCGLYNN BAKERIES. INC. CITY MANAGER.
Don Ashworth: We got a request from McGlynn if there was someway that we could
take and help work with them in a potential new addition. They'd like to be
able to move ahead with footings. Of course once footings are in, it becomes '
difficult to move the building around. Talking with Planning staff, we really
13 1
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City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990
11 feel that given the acreage that is out there, there's very little chance that
the Planning Commission and Council will come up with why don't you put the
building somewhere else. I mean they're not looking to any variances, etc. .
Staff is recommending, or what would work well for McGlynn and I don't see what
type of problem it could create, would be hold off until after the Planning
Commission meeting this Wednesday. See if there's anything identified in their
detailed review. If there's nothing found in that review that creates a
problem, staff would allow them to receive their footing permit. It would still
come to the City Council. All conditions dealing with parking. Parking spaces.
Landscaping. Anything else would still be heard by the City Council but it
would give them that potential 2 week jump.
Councilman Johnson: But at this time they're asking for no variances? There's
nothing really unusual?
Don Ashworth: No variances. Nothing unusual.
Paul Krauss: Basically they're taking the existing south wall, unbolting it and
moving it out and putting it back up.
Don Ashworth: The City Council should have received the Planning Commission's
packet and that item is in that packet so if you get a chance to look at it and
you see something that's of concern, if you'd let me know but otherwise staff
thinks that that's a way to help accommodate a good local businessmen and
without really impairing the Council's authority, I'm hoping.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess I don't see that as any given problem.
Councilman Workman: Would it behoove us to notify Timberwood or anything?
Paul Krauss: We did. While they're far outside the 500 foot notification area,
I notify neighborhoods that I think might be interested and we've notified
Timberwood of this and other things in the past.
' Councilman Workman: Thank you. This is unorthodox and that looks, I use the
word unorthodox. The neighborhood might use the word sneaky.
Councilman Johnson: This is similar to what we've done with grading permits in
the past .
Paul Krauss: If there are a number of Timberwood residents who come Wednesday
' evening voicing objections, then we would not pre-issue any permits.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Good. Any other discussion?
' Councilman Workman moved, Councilwoman Dialer seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. This portion of the meeting was
adjourned.
The City Council then adjourned at 8:15 p.m. into the Budget Worksession portion
of the meeting. Gary Warren gave a report on the Public Works budget proposals
and Paul Krauss reported on the Planning Department's budget proposals.
I 14
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City Council Meeting - November 5, 1990 1
The City Council then reconvened at 9:15 p.m. to discuss the results of the bond
sale held earlier in the day. Dave McGillvarey from Springsted gave a summary
of the bidding climate in which the bond sale took place and then reported the
results to the City Council. The City Council made a motion to adopt the
following resolutions.
Resolution $90-146(a): Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded
to award the General Obligation Improvement Bond, Series 1990B in the amount of
$1,335,000.00 to FBS Investment Services, Inc. with a net interest rate of
6.5879%. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Resolution t90-146(b): Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Diller seconded
to award the General Obligation Water Revenue Bond, Series 1990C in the amount
of $830,000.00 to FBS Investment Services, Inc. with a net interest rate of
6.5599%. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Councilman Johnson then moved and Councilwoman Dimler seconded to adjourn the 1
meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. The meeting
was adjourned at 9:22 p.m..
Submitted by Oon Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim ,
I
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15 I
I
U . ' tk i 1 1 r
- .' ' ; ''CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION t ED
SPECIAL MEETING
OCTOBER 24 , 1990
I Chairman Conrad called the special meeting of the Planning Commission to
order at 7: 15 p .m . .
I COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart , Steve Emmings, Ladd Conrad , Brian
Batzli , Jim Wildermuth and Joan Ahrens
COMMISSION MEMBER ABSENT: Annette Ellson
II
STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss , Planning Director ; Gary Warren, City Engineer ;
Sharmin Al-Jaff , Planner 1 ; and Mark Koegler , Comprehensive Plan Consultant
I
PUBLIC HEARING:
ICITY OF CHANHASSEN COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
IPublic Present:
Name Address
1 VanDeVeire , Betty & Larry 4980 Co . Rd . 10 E , Chaska
Morin, Joe & Gayle 1441 Lake Lucy Road, Chanhassen
I Tichy , Brian
Phillips , Warren & Arlene 1471 Lake Lucy Road , Chanhassen
1571 Lake Lucy Road , Chanhassen
Mielke , Jim & Doris 1645 Lake Lucy Road , Chanhassen
Olson , Andrew & Cheryl 8290 West Lake Court , Chanhassen
1 Scott , Joseph 7091 Pimlico Lane , Chanhassen
Song , Charles & Irene 7200 Galpin Lake Road, Chanhassen
Song , Susan 525 University Ave S .E . , *6 , Mpls .
II ( Illegible Name ) 1851 Lake Lucy , Chanhassen
Bill ( ? ) 8105 Dakota Lane , Chanhassen
Foster , Mark 8020 Acorn Lane , Chanhassen
I VanderVorste , Ben & Greg 8141 Maplewood, Chanhassen
Rivkin , Eric 1695 Stellar Court , Excelsior
Klingelhutz , Al 8600 Great Plains Blvd . , Chanhassen
Reick , B .J . White Bear Lake, MN 55110
I Davidson , Bret
Barke , Gini 7291 Galpin Blvd . , Excelsior
7071 Shawnee Lane, Chanhassen
Finstad , Barb & Allen 1701 Stellar Court , Excelsior
I Sanda , Mark & Kathy 1685 Stellar Court, Excelsior
Klingelhutz , Brian 2031 Timberwood Drive , Chanhassen
Gorczyca , Jack & Melanie 1850 Lake Lucy Road, Excelsior
Stellar , Merrill 1931 Crestview Circle , Excelsior
I Hamblin , Dick 340 Sinnen Circle , Chanhassen
Roos , Roman 10341 Heidi Lane , Chaska
Mertz , Craig 1100 First Bank Place West , Mpls , 55402
II Kuder , Martin 6831 Galpin Blvd . , Excelsior
Schafer , Orlin Carver County Assessor , Chaska
Keane , Tim 7900 Xerxes So, Bloomington 55431
Smith , Julius C . 6750 France Avenue , Mpls 55435
Gardner , Rennee & Jim 3921 Stratford Ridge , Chanhassen
Miller , Bill 8121 Pinewood, Chanhassen
11
Planning Commission Meeting It
9 9
October 24 , 1990 - Page 2
IF
Name Address
White , Don & Marsha 8850 Audubon Road , Chanhassen '
Goers , Bill 1601 Lyman Blvd. , Chanhassen
Carlson , Kent P .O . Box 762 , Wayzata 55391
Shardlow, John W. 300 1st Avenue No , Mpls 55401
Ahrens , Doug Chanhassen
Alvey , Gerry & Karla 1831 Sunridge Court, Chanhassen
Cochrane , Mike & Joanne 1751 Sunridge Court, Chanhassen
Janicke , Marvin 7021 Galpin Blvd. , Excelsior
Smithburg , Robert 8657 Chan Hills Drive No . , Chanhassen
Johnson, Duane M/M 7317 Hazeltine Blvd. , Chanhassen
Smith, Bob Richfield
Carlson, Dale & Gloria 6900 Utica Lane , Chanhassen
Wing , Richard 3481 Shore Drive , Excelsior
Mancino , Nancy 6620 Galpin , Excelsior
Longman , Steve 13539 Oak Hill Court , Eden Prairie
Jacobson , Dennis 6841 Hazeltine Blvd. , Excelsior
Williams , Mark & Tracy 1655 Lake Lucy , Chanhassen
Mason, Michael 833 Woodhill , Chanhassen
Donnay , Richard 8109 Dakota Lane , Chanhassen
Leirdahl , James 2350 Timberwood Drive , Chanhassen
Koubsky, David 1311 Lake Susan Hills Drive , Chanhassen"
Johnson , Larry 7022 Pima Bay, Chanhassen
Stockdale , David 7210 Galpin Blvd . , Chanhassen
Blanchar , Jon 25 Norma Ridge Drive
Olson , Peder 8635 Chan Hills Drive No , Chanhassen
Coey , Ted 1381 Lake Lucy Road, Chanhassen
Dimler , Ursula 7203 Kiowa Circle , Chanhassen
Cropsey, Patrick 9100 West Bloomington Swy St . 157
Dirlum , Dennis 15241 Creekside Court , Eden Prairie
Quinn , Gene 532 Lyman Blvd. , Chanhassen
Conrad: The sole purpose for this meeting is to discuss the Comprehensive
Plan . It 's a public hearing and what I 'd like to do, before we open it up
for public comment is get a little bit of background on the process which
is probably kind of boring but something that we 're going to tell you. . .an
then open it up for our staff to give a report to tell you what is
presented and then we 'll open it up for public comments. I 'm going to sit "
down . I was here 10 years ago when we had a comparable meeting and we had
two public hearings and 5 people showed up so I think either people are
more involved . We have more people in the community and I hope those are
the key things for your attendance tonight. The process that we're lookind
at is called a comprehensive plan . It's required by the Metropolitan
Council but it forces communities to do some planning and probably without '
that process we may not do some planning and we may work on land use and
land development on a year to year basis which, as you know, even when we
look ahead , as you know when you do it on a short term basis it makes a lot
of people nervous and there are tendencies to make fewer good decisions.
In that process we hired a consultant and we directed the Planning staff tail
pull out information for us. Present the information to the Planning
Commission and as I said, this process has lasted for approximately 2
years . If in that process we 've handled several open meetings . Many open '
meetings . We 've invited the public in some of the public forums to come in
I
11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 3
11
and tell us what you think before we get to a final stage and tonight is
really not a final stage because there's still more to come but again it's
really tough to make changes at the last second. It 's like it's nice to
see where the community stands on issues before we put it into manuals .
There's an insecurity but once it 's in print , it's true and therefore we
open it up for public comments occasionally over the last 3 or 4 months to
know what the community, what the residents think about what we 're doing .
Based on that input , we as a commission looked at the issues that were
raised and we either voted or we directed staff to review those issues.
They weren 't cast aside and said we don't want to consider that . We looked
at every issue that was brought up and like any kind of commission or
council , when you have 7 people you have 7 different opinions but we voted
on those and those , along with staff input and our consultant's input , we
have formulated something that we 're getting close to presenting to the
City Council . Tonight 's meeting may seem a little bit anti-climatic
because we have had some public forums and we tend to know where some
people stand . Yet on the other hand , it is for you to tell us what you
think of what we 've got on the board right now . It 's our rule as a
commission to decide if we want to further study it . If we 're totally
wrong or if we want to pass it to the City Council . In all cases , the City
Council makes the final decision. In all cases. They're using us to try
to develop something that they can react to . And I don 't know if many of
1 you have seen it . The plans that we have is relatively thick. I don 't
know if thickness counts . We took a look at Excelsior 's comprehensive plan
and it had 25 pages in it . There 's some good news to that . You can read
it quickly . And there 's some bad news to this . Hopefully this means we 've
done some homework on a lot of different issues . I think you 're all here
going to talk about where , how those little maps look but I guess I would
like to make one comment that in this plan we not only talk about what
those maps and the land uses look like but we talk about the natural
resources in the community and how to preserve and protect them. We talk
about employment . We talk about housing , recreation , transportation , sewer
' and water , capital improvements. It 's a guide for 10 years which will be
changed but at least it's a guide and it has a lot of stuff in it that will
hopefully guide the community as the community does grow. For tonight 's
' meeting we 're going to open it up with our Planning department making some
comments . Our consultant probably giving us some input as to how we
arrived at certain things and then we'll open it up for the public for your
' comments as to what we have today. The only restrictions that I 'd like to
do . They may kick us out . They will kick us out of this building I know
by 11 :00 . I 'd sure like to close the meeting by 10:00 so we can comment and
set some kind of direction . We're not here to ramrod anything down your
' throat so we 'll pay attention and if we can't get all the comments done ,
we 'll continue the hearing . I would like to though limit the comments
first go ahead to 10 minutes . If there 's anything more than 10 minutes ,
' we 're going to cut you off and let somebody else have a comment . We'll
come back to you as time permits. The other things that I would like to do
is if there are , we will listen to the same comment . We 'd prefer not to .
If there are people that believe in what was just said by somebody during
their turn at the microphone , I guess showing your support or a comment
just saying we agree I think would serve for us the same purpose . We 're
not going to cut you off however if you do want to make a comment to us .
That 's not why we 're here . I think with that introduction, the only other
thing after we have our planning staff talk to us a little bit , when you do
have a comment , if we can get you to our microphone for your name and
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 4
•
address for the record and then the comments that you have . If you
represent a group or another person , again that would be appropriate for I
your introduction to yourself and your comments . Paul?
Krauss: Thank you . As the Chairman indicated we 've been working on this
for approximately 2 years . Our current plan dates back to 1980 and has
proven to be inadequate to respond to the issues of the 1990's or to deal
with the growth that 's occurred . There's a basic question as to why we do
a comprehensive plan and there's basically 3 answers . It is required by
law . The Metropolitan Land Planning Act administered by the Metro Council
does require that you maintain a comprehensive plan. Secondly , the Comp
Plan is the only means for relocating the MUSA line. The urban service
line that determines where we can provide urban services and where we
can 't . Chanhassen 's rapidly running out of service area . We experienced a
100% increase in population and a 300% increase in jobs over the last 10
years and I can state unequivocally that nobody probably wants or foresees
that growth trend continuing at that rate . That if a reasonable amount of
growth is to occur in the next 10 to 15 years, the MUSA line needs to be
relocated to accommodate that . The last reason is probably the most
important one and that is that a comprehensive plan is a vision of what thji
community wants to become in the next 10 to 15 years . It 's used to set
some fundamental directions for growth. For example , the Planning
Commission determined that the ratio of land uses that we have in the
community today is a good one . That the mix of employment , commercial ,
single family residential and primarily a single family residential
community is a good one and should be perpetuated and that became a goal oll
the plan . Another broad brush goal had to deal with maintenance of our
central business district and encouraging the central business district to
continue to develop and continue to be an important part of our community .
The plan 's also used to promote environmental protection, locate and
preserve parkland , identify school sites and recreational facilities ,
outlying utility and street improvements and hopefully lay out a schedule
for undertaking those projects . I guess I 'd digress a little bit to say II
that 10 years ago somebody who was sitting in this chair would have looked
out and said there 's a recession coming and that you 're probably not going
to see a lot of things happening for a long time . We're sitting in the
same situation now . We realize that demographic trends are somewhat
different . The baby bubble is now passing through the system. Most of
those people have homes . We are probably facing a recession . However , I
would ask you to keep in mind that this plan is for 10 to 15 year timefram
and all we need to do is look back and see what happened in the previous 1
years to see what the possibilities are in the future. The 1990's
potentially could be a very exciting decade for the city . In our studies 1
of surrounding communities we realize that most of the surrounding
communities have either filled up or the attractive land in those
communities is gone . We have had a very significant growth in our
employment and that in itself is making the community more desireable and Al
think you 're all aware of the fact that our access situation, which has
always been fairly difficult , is rapidly being improved . In developing th
draft comprehensive plan the commission started by reviewing those forces
that are affecting our community and then established goals and policies
for each plan element . The Chairman touched on those plan elements . The
plan element that's received the most attention is the land use plan , that "
colored map and it is important but we also have spent a lot of time on
natural features , environmental protection, transportation planning element
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11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 5
11
is quite significant . We 've recently completed a study with Carver County .
We also have a housing element , a recreation plans are in the comprehensive
plan . Utility extensions. Our solid waste management program which the
city administers is also in there as is the capital improvements plan .
Public input on the plan was obtained by residents attending numerous work
session meetings and two well attended informational meetings held this
summer . As a result of these meetings, a number of changes were
incorporated into the plan . The Planning Commission has also received a
large volume of correspondence , petitions , newsletters which were
considered . They were all passed out to the Planning Commission for their
review. In fact they 're contained in an Appendix to the plan for those of
' you who 've had an opportunity to have thumb through it . We've had a number
of articles placed in the local newspapers . Both the papers have been very
cooperative in getting the word out as to what's going on and I think your
attendance here is evidence of that . Finally , people who expressed an
interest in the plan , we 've had a running mailing list and anybody who's
written us about anything or asked to be on a mailing list has received
special notice of meetings and we do have a sign up sheet in the back
tonight and we 'd encourage you to sign that and we 'll keep people posted of
forthcoming progress on the plan . Tonight 's meeting is the official public
hearing that 's required by law . The previous meetings have been
informational and the Planning Commission 's gained a lot out of them but
' this is the official meeting that must be undertaken . As the chairman
indicated , the Planning Commission can accept testimony and pass the plan
along to the City Council with their recommendations or they can determine
' that additional changes are required and I guess we' ll have to wait and see
what their decision is on that . Ultimately the plan will be sent to the
City Council for approval and they can also incorporate additional changes .
' The City Council will probably get the plan for approval by the end of the
year . Depending on what happens tonight , we 'll have a better idea on how
that will go . After the City Council approves it , it has to be sent to the
Metropolitan Council and that 's a whole different process . They have at 90
' days to review the plan . It 's a major plan amendment . It 's sent out to
neighboring communities . We 've been trying to work with the Metro Council
and keep the neighboring communities aware of what we 're doing but they
' also can require additional changes in the plan . Final plan adoption will
probably occur by next spring if everything moves along . With that I 'd
like to have Mark Koegler , who 's the City's planning consultant give a
brief overview of the plan and the revisions that were incorporated most
recently this summer . I 'd also note that Gary Warren sitting to my right ,
our City Engineer is present tonight and can respond to questions .
Finally , there have been some questions raised on property valuations and
' taxation and Orlin Schafer who's the Carver County Assessor has been
willing to attend our meeting and he 's here tonight and can respond to some
questions as well . With that I 'll pass the meeting over to Mark Koegler .
Mark Koegler : Thanks Paul . My comments this evening are going to focus
specifically on the land use section . I 'll touch a little bit on
transportation and I would echo that the Chairman and Paul 's comment that
we 're not trying to omit the other sections of the plan but in a forum like
tonight obviously we can only focus on so much so any comments that any of
you have on any other of the sections of the plan are certainly still in
order this evening . I want to really do probably 3 or 4 things . I want to
provide you with some orientation to the land use plan. Talk a little bit
about some of the land use categories and what some of the designations
1
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 6
that you see on the two boards actually mean. Give you a little bit of an
overview of some of the rationale behind how those designations took place ll
and some of the changes that have taken place over the last literally
probably 12 to 18 months as that thing has evolved and then finally touch a
little bit on some of the transportation related issues and how they impac
the land use plan . The plan itself , the land use section is driven to a
large degree by some of the demographic information that 's in the plan
document that deals with some of the projections on population, on
households , on employment growth. To give you some idea of what those
benchmarks are , the plan identifies 3 different sets of projections and
then goes on to basically highlight what we 've targeted as kind of a
midrange set of numbers . Approximately 18 months ago , at that time we well
still projecting for 1990 , the plan was projecting about 4 ,113 households
with a population count of about 11 ,105 . As many of you know , I 'm sure
you 've read in the local newspapers that the census information is out in
very preliminary form and those numbers very much verify those projections "
that were made a while ago. The census as of April had a population for
the City of about 11 ,700 with just over 4 ,000 housing units so they were
very close . The plan then goes on to project that by the year 2000 the II
population will rise to about 17 ,700 and the total housing count will be
somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 ,500 units so it will be up about 2,500
in round numbers from where we are today . I 'm going to move over and
discuss some of the boards a little bit. If any of you are in the back ,
feel free to stand up and move around or whatever so you can see a little
bit better . First of all in terms of some orientation . What we 've had to
do for the sake of convenience is break it into two areas . Kind of a norti
area and south area . The north one is on the right side , the south is on
the left . Common features of both is TH 5 and this area which is down kind
of across the center portion with most of the colored area above on this II
particular map . I want to walk through very quickly the kind of palate of
colors that have been used here so in case you haven 't had a chance to look
closely , you know what those mean . Many of you have seen , we have a larger
scale map. . . The colors range from initially the lighter yellow color is
residential large lot which is essentially 2 1/2 acre , single family
residential type of development . On site sewer systems. Most of those
were platted prior to 1987 . The more canary yellow color is residential II
low density category . Essentially the single family detached. . .15,000 or
greater square foot lot in terms of the zoning code . The residential
continues then into the orange color which is medium density . That really
is earmarked more for townhouse type of units. . .houses we're talking about ,
and then the brown is the higher density category which would be more of an
apartment type structure . The red color on the map which occurs primarily
only in the downtown area is commercial . The purple that you see ,
particularly south of TH 5 on that exhibit is the office/industrial
category . That is usually your light manufacturing, office, warehouse type
of facilities similar to what is now in place in Chanhassen Lakes Business II
and what 's developed in there over the last 10 years period. Moving
through the categories , there's two colors of green on the map . A lighter
color of green represents parks and open space corridors. The more olive
green represents public and semi-public land uses . An example would be the,
Arboretum , churches , schools , things of that nature. There 's undeveloped
land that 's just shown in white . The only really occurrence of that is in
the extreme southern portion of the community well outside of the MUSA lin
area and I 'll touch on that in a few minutes. There 's a mixed use categor
which covers both high density and commercial uses. It's only location is
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 7
t.
down in this portion of the city . The MUSA line that I mentioned a moment
' ago , for any of you who are not up on your acronyms , the MUSA is
Metropolitan Urban Service Area . I think most of you are aware that that 's
kind of a line , demarktation between the area the essentially can receive
sanitary sewer service and an areas. . .until after the year 2000 . The heavy
' red line that appeared on both of these exhibits is the MUSA that 's being
proposed as part of the comprehensive plan update . It does add land area
as I 'm sure most of you are aware to the existing . . . The existing line is
' on the map , it 's probably very difficult to see if you 're much further than
5 or 10 feet away . It 's the smaller red line . I ' ll call your attention
also to there 's an asterick up in this portion, south of TH 5 and the east
' side of Galpin . That 's identifying a cooperative effort thus far with the
school district to identify a potential . . .school site that may be
designated at some time in the future . The land use pattern that has
evolved out of this entire process has a lot of reflections back to what
11 was compiled in the 1980 comprehensive plan . I think it 's parallel to the
philosophy . At that time the city 's developed area was primarily around
Lotus Lake , some of it beginning to extend south of TH 5 but not to a major
amount with the exception of the Chanhassen Estates area and the industrial
area down in Chanhassen Lakes Business Park . The pattern then has been one
of that development pushing basically southwest and somewhat westward in
what was labeled in 1980 as an organized fashion . The 1980 plan actually
showed it 's sewered portion of the plan, where likely areas would be in 5
year increments for sanitary sewer service to be expanded between 1980 and
at that time the year 2000. The MUSA line was identified for 1990 . It was
' kind of summarily changed by the Metropolitan Council a while later to the
year 2000 and now . . .a change in that again . Touching on some of the
particular land use patterns , I mentioned it before . The red is the
' commercial area . . .substantial location of commercial is in the downtown
area . That 's very much indicative of the City 's philosophy to emphasize
development in that area . As I 'm sure you 're all aware , there 's a
significant amount of investment there within the last 10 to 12 years . Some
' of the fruits of that are being seen now and the emphasize is on continuing
with that type of pattern . The industrial development that started
. initially over in the . . .of the county and then. . .Chanhassen Business Park
' is basically being continued philosophically down towards Chaska . If this
map were to contain Chaska 's land use as well , you 'd see the purple color
that basically abut this entire area . If any of you had a chance to look
' at the exhibit that 's over there , that reflects some of the land use
outside of Chanhassen 's boundaries that identify that . There were a number
of issues that came up during the preparation of the land use plan. . . I 'm
going to touch on some of those briefly . The Timberwood neighborhood which
' is one of the residential large lot designations in this area certainly was
a topic of considerable discussion . It essentially kind of lies in the
center of what I described as the path. . .connection of industrial down to
i Chaska . After numerous meetings and a great deal of. . .the Planning
Commission did decide to make some changes in that area . . .identifies them
as single family surrounding that as well as the medium density closer to
TH 5 . A very similar occurrence took place in the Sunridge Court
' development down in this area. What has happened is what formerly
contained some industrial designations has been turned back over to
residential also . Another change that has taken place in more recent
' times . In this corner of TH 5 and Galpin. . .was designated as neighborhood
commercial site . It was approximately 11 acres in size . Based on
testimony and consideration by the Planning Commission, that was converted
Planning Commission Meeting I
October 24 , 1990 - Page 8
I
over to a residential use . They were considering the size of the parcel ,
it 's . . . Lake Lucy area up in the northern portion of the community is
another area that received consideration attention . It was the subject of "
considerable resident comments as well . The final decision , at least to
date and for the purpose of bringing it to public hearing tonight was to
leave the MUSA line essentially intact where it was shown . There was
consideration in taking certain properties out . . .line around. To date thell
commission has elected to leave the line where it is . The final really
change that kind of evolved was kind of a concept . Kind of a planning
concept that occurred and that 's what 's been labeled buffer area . On this 'll
map there are various designations of buffer areas both on the southern
part of the community and to the northern part . What these are and they 'r
shown basically as interface areas between a residential land use and some
other type of land use . They 're identified as land as an additional buffe
strip outside of the normal setbacks . Outside the normal landscaping
requirements . On a land to land contact basis , it 'd be larger . . . roadway II
such as along Audubon that may be reduced to something like 50 or 75
feet . . .additional street right-of-way . . . The intent of those is to provide
some physical and visual separation between uses . Touching just for a
moment on some statistics and we 're not by any means going to get into
detail and bore you with a lot of numbers . I 'll make just a quick
reference as to what some of the tabulations of land would reveal . Inside
the existing MUSA line which if you 'll allow me just generally I 've
identified as this area on this map . When you get over into this map , it '
predominantly an area that comes up this way . Inside of those boundaries
at the present time the City has 281 acres of vacant single family
designated property or low density designated property. 175 acres of
multi-family , 118 of commercial and 95 acres of industrial . The change in
the MUSA line for additional area if you will , that occurred between where
the line lies now and where the line is proposed to be as part of the plan '
obviously brings additional land into the total system . Land that
potentially will develop over the next 10 year time period . I would stress
over the next 10 year period . That 's not been identified by any means the ll
1991 . . .all the properties available . It's very much contingent upon the
City 's ability to provide sanitary sewer service and some of the other
urban utilities to those areas . The numbers reflecting the additional are
on the plan approximately 840 acres of single family , approximately 115 of
�
multi-family , 543 acres of office/industrial land . The total results
essentially in the residential portion only . The total availability of II land between where we are today and the year 2000 is approximately 1 ,400
acres . The text portion of the land use plan contains some dialogue about
some of the projections and some of the methodologies that we 've done but
basically it 's set up a patter the City's going to need somewhere between II
approximately 1 ,300 and 1 ,900 acres to satisfy residential demands between
now and the year 2000 . So you can see the number that 's been identified in
the plan again is somewhat of a conservative midrange kind of number .
. .limits that the Metropolitan Council would approve, the emphasize by
the Planning Commission since day one has been to try to . . .reasonable
document for all areas . The final thing that I want to touch upon quickly .
is transportation . Qn this map there 's a series of lines that are ,
superimposed on the land use colors . Again , with the room configuration
it 's real difficult to see . Perhaps . . .identify some of the new alignments
and look at those quickly for you . TH 5 , there's a new frontage road showy"
along the north side that would extend from CR 17 or Powers Blvd . on the
east to TH 41 on the west . There is a compatible somewhat detached
11
1
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 9
frontage road to the south of that that stretches from Audubon Road on the
' east over again to TH 41 on the west taking a rather circuitous route to
get there . There are two road segments in the northern portion of the
community . The connection between Galpin Blvd . , which is CR 117 and TH 41 .
One appears north of Lake Harrison and one appears to the south of Lake
Harrison . Those will be future collector street locations . The obvious ,
and I said this 10 years ago, the obvious transportation . . .TH 212 . I 'm
' glad to say it 's a little further along than it was when we did this back
in 1982 . At least the official mapping has occurred. That is shown
continuing on this plan . That then evoked some other transportation
improvements . TH 101 is being rerouted south of TH 5 over to Market
' Blvd . . . .down to the new interchange location for TH 101 . Ultimately then
another interchange being constructed over to the west along CR 17 . That
really kind of concludes my overview comments on the plan . I don't know if
' Paul has anything to add to that . If not we 'll turn it over to the
Commission .
Conrad: Thank you Mark . I guess we 're close to opening it up for your
' comments . I 'm just going to reiterate one thing . Our process was driven
by some goals in each of these areas . If you 're interested in what the
goals were , I think that kind of tells you how we got to where we ended up
' and I 'd encourage if you 're curious what those goals are in terms of
transportation , land use , housing , to go to City Hall and get a copy of
those . They 're probably on 8 or 10 pages in this document but it tells you
' what our goals are for development and how we're going to do that and the
policies that would assist in accomplishing that . The only other thing
before I open it up , just so you 're aware , this is a land use plan and it 's
not zoning . Zoning could follow later on . Probably will but it is not the
' same thing as zoning . Zoning occurs later on when there is appropriate
application to rezone the property . This is our way of saying Met Council ,
residents , here 's how we think we 're going to grow . We 've got some blocks
' out there and this is the direction we 're going in. I 'm going to open it
up for comments . Who would like to be the first person tonight?
' Gene Quinn: I guess I will . My name is Gene Quinn-. I live at 532 Lyman
Blvd . . When you say this is not zoning , okay but people want to come down
to City Hall and see how something is going to be used next to me , it 's as
much a zoning . Or just about as much . Let me show you where I 'm at . I 've
' got 10 acres right here . Right next to it is commercial . . . Okay , my house
is about here . The day 's going to come when . . .make it into lots . When
people come out, come down to City Hall and they want to see what 's going
' to happen , what do they see? They see red zoning don 't they?
Conrad: If they look at the comprehensive plan, they'll certainly think
that that 's the direction it 's going .
' Gene Quinn: I mean it 's going to cost me a lot of money . Lots of money .
I 've got here a handout that was from about 3 years ago , a public hearing
for TH 212 . At that time it was commercial on this whole interchange with
half the new parcel . . .mixed use . Okay , he 's going to end up selling that
land for what , $3 .00 to $5 .00 a square foot in 5 years from now and it 's
going to end up costing me a lot of money . Is that fair? Thank you .
Conrad: Thanks Gene . Paul , did you have a comment on what?
11
Planning Commission Meeting
9
October 24 , 1990 - Page 10
Krauss: Only , well the commercial/mixed use that 's being shown there is
being shown around a highway interchange between TH 101 and TH 212. It 's I
going to be a high traffic area . It 's going to be high visibility area .
There 's reason to think that higher intensity uses are appropriate there .
We do have to be careful of how we get that interfaced between the
commercial and higher density and the residential and I believe we 've
showing , are we showing a buffer yard there? Yeah . We're showing the
buffer yard concept in there and it is something that 's worked out when we
actually have a design. That 's about it . '
Conrad: Gene , your preference is not for mixed use there I assume?
Gene Quinn: Well , the way I see it is that we were committed . The City II
made up this thing . Okay , we spend our time going to a public hearing . At
that time it was to work with changing the freeway alignment so my next I
important thing was the land use around it . Okay? We show it as medium
density with two different alternates . . . I even talked , you know that 's
the way I felt so I talked to a local realtor . This lady is involved in
selling lots and platting and she 's got a good feel for people . Okay? I
People go down to City Hall and look at that and see that commercial next
to them and you know what the answer 's going to be . They 're going to run
away . There are enough lots to buy in Chanhassen , you don't have to buy 11/one next to . . . Some of that , the way she explained, is probably worse
before it 's actually developed because they don 't know what 's going to go
in there .
Conrad: Okay , thanks . •
Richard Donnay: Richard Donnay . I 'm at 8109 Dakota Lane in Chanhassen in '
the Estates . I 'm concerned , I 'm wondering about the park property , the
park property around Lake Ann . Between Lake Ann and Lake Lucy . Is that
park area now between Lake Ann and Lake Lucy there? Is that what it is
now? It 's park and will it continue to be park indefinitely and do we have'
parkland all the way around Lake Ann? I mean is it permissible for a
citizen to walk around Lake Ann now and what are the possibilities of
expanding the park up around the west side of Lake Lucy . That's really I
beatiful in there for trespassers would find that out at this point . I 'm
really hopeful you can develop a park around those lakes there .
Conrad: Thanks for your comments . Mark , can you handle that? '
Koegler : Yes . The park plan literally since the 1980 plan was put
together has strongly advocated that Lake Ann is probably the only lake inj
Chanhassen that the City has a reasonable chance to get circulation all th
way around. I think a lot of us would like to tell you tonight that it 's
there but it's not at the present time . It is on the south side with Lake 1
Ann Park . It is on the east side with the connection up to Greenwood
Shores Park on kind of the northeast portion of the lake if you will . What
the comprehensive plan shows then is a continuation first of all of a
slight expansion of the park area between the two water bodies and then
with at least some kind of a connecting strip around the other side .
Whether that's in ownership , whether that 's in easement , that would remain
to be seen . The tenacle that you see that kind of stretches up to the
northwest from there is the Lake Ann Interceptor sewer alingment that
follows up through there and the City 's long term hope is to see that as a
I
11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 11
trail corridor with a connection from Lake Ann Park ettin up into
g g P
Minnewashta Regional Park . So what you have on that map is actually a
mixture of existing conditions and the plan 's proposed expansion of public
useage around Lake Ann Park . At the present time I believe there 's at
least one home on the southwest portion kind of on Lake Ann which would be
' impacted or would have to be dealt with as a part of that acquisition .
Richard Donnay: So the land between those two lakes would have to be
' purchased from a private owner at this point?
Koegler : It would . The City presently has title to a very small area
between the two lakes in the form of Greenwood Shores Park which is about a
3 acre park .
Bob Smithburg: My name is Bob Smithburg . I 'm very new to the area here . I
bought a house on 8657 Chanhassen Hills Drive North . I 'm concerned about
TH 212 and TH 101 . Could you tell me , this might be old for everyone else
but could you tell me the status of the proposals for the highway . Will it
enhance my property value? Will it degrade it , which I feel it probably
11
will being an artery into it . Will it be a submerged highway? Can you
give me information on this?
I Warren: Highway 212 's been officially mapped by the City . The corridor
that 's shown on the city's map is accurate as we can represent it at that
scale of a map . Indications from the Department of Transportation is that
' the project is funded for construction out to the intersection of Lyman and
TH 101 probably by the late 90 's . I would expect 1996 to 1998 timing when
that road would be under construction . Through the Chan Hills area , the
last concepts that we 've been provided from the State shows that it 's a
depressed road section and that it would actually be going underneath the
existing at grade intersection so there would be some buffer to the local
neighborhood as a result of that .
' Conrad: If the County Assessor is here , maybe you could answer a little
bit of your question about value .
Bob Smithburg: Okay , and then one other question. Will they be putting
up , you know such as on the county roads in Minneapolis , wooden what do you
call them? Noise barriers or visual barriers?
Warren: The State is currently completing the environmental impact
statement for the roadway and they do use as you're aware , noise walls in
certain areas where the criteria dictates it . To be honest , I don 't know
completely the road section as far as whether they've actually proposed any
noise walls . In areas where there 's depressed road section, typically they
don 't need it but that will be a part of their final environmental impact .
Bob Smithburg: Okay . I would appreciate it if you have influence in this
matter , to really push for this because I know the decibel ratings are
' quite high that they judge by and to our normal ears , it 's pretty
irritating .
Conrad: Is the County Assessor here? The gentleman was concerned about
land valuation with 212 going through .
•
I
Planning Commission Meeting 11
October 24 , 1990 - Page 12
Orlin Schafer : The land values change as property changes as plans such as
this take effect . They 're long term and he 's talking about that corridor
being there but utilized sometime . . . It wouldn't be really much impact at
all as far as land value . If you 're a developer who 's expecting to
purchase land and subdivide it and develop it , this is what this is all
"about . It 's gearing up , telling you where you're most likely sites are
available and what is going to impact those sites . Normally you see
highway construction such as this , you 'll see low density housing with
large buffer areas . Something like that to protect the noise or the
economic impact from the highway . By doing that , you're not lowering your
value . You 're enhancing the property from the sense that . . . The impact to
a value . . .is minimal . . . The same thing applies. . .around that Lake Ann
area . We see that park over there . People that join a golf course enjoy
the rather large value in their property simply because they 're buying the
aesthetics of a visual amenity that . . .so this works both ways . In some
cases you can tell somebody you made a bad choice . The property is going
to be impacted. . . Perhaps other choices say it 's to your advantage to own
the property . According to this , who are going to benefit? You and others
in the area . Referring to what Mr . Lyman was saying about the development II property . We don 't necessarily define . . .shy away from being neighbors to
industrial sites . What we 've seen in Chanhassen and Chaska too and other
areas of the metro area where they 're developing light industrial and
commercial property . . .landscaping and they are enhancing the picturesque II
studies of the building and they 're demanding certain things of these
contractors and these developers so they are no longer eye sores. They
aren 't these 10 story brick warehouse type buildings that are going up .
They 're doing a very decent job for the most part of fitting in with the II
landscaping of the area around . I would not say that you 're going to be
negatively affected . . .rather than the industrial park . We have some in the
industrial park out there now that actually the homes were built there
first but since the industry went up across the way , people thought they II
were going to be negatively impacted . . . So people will go to those sites .
I don't think it 's going to overly negatively affect it . The other thing
is that . . . I guess that 's my point . Everything 's going to sell .
Everything 's going . . . .
Conrad: Thank you . Other comments . ,
Craig Harrington: Craig Harrington, 8140 Maplewood Terrace . I just have a
couple of questions and some of these may be for Gary or for Mark or Paul .
On the highway 5, do you know starting from let's say Audubon Road going
west , where the new highway 's going to cut? Whether it's going to cut to
the south or to the north. I 'm watching as it 's going through Eden
Prairie . It seems to be cutting to the south right now. Have they made
any proposals or staked that out yet?
Warren: From CR 17 to TH 41 , you're talking about that section? ,
Craig Harrington: Right.
Warren: All I can tell you at this point in time is that the current ,
alignment , you can see the construction going on now to add the two lanes
to the bridge are going to be on the north side of TH 5 so when it comes ,
through CR 17 it will be on the north side . Now they flip back and forth
as you 'll see on this recent segment that 's under construction depending on
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 13
obstacles like the park property and some of these things so there 's no
' given alignment yet at this point in time .
Craig Harrington: Okay . The other question I have , Mark on where the
public or the intermediate school may be going , there 's like a shaded area .
I Is that actually , between the frontage road and the highway, is there going
to be any developable area in there? Is that just going to be buffer land ,
vacant land?
' Krauss: Craig, that 's one of the things that has changed in the plan . I
think you recall that an earlier version of that plan .
Craig Harrington: Right , we had the frontage road I think further down .
Krauss: Bisecting the property . In fact I think it was Mary that
I suggested that we run it as a frontage road section and it made a lot of
sense to do that . What we anticipate doing is essentially it will be a
frontage road so you 'll have TH 5, you 'll have a median strip of some sort
' and then you ' ll have the frontage road and then everything beyond it . The
only place that would not occur is at Galpin where you need to provide
enough offset from that intersection for safety so it will come down a
little bit .
' Craig Harrington: But even so , will that still , it looks like it , is that
going to be developable let 's say between where it comes into Galpin and
' drops down a little bit further on the east side there between CR 117
between that frontage road and TH 5 . Is that going to be , you know because
it 's just shaded now . That 's all I see right there and I don 't want to see
' a gas station there or something like that .
Koegler : You 're right . The designation on the map bear in mind it 's a
1 ,000 scale map . It is fairly generalized . I think that type of decision
' would ultimately be made at the time that road goes in and you study the
intersection configurations . I can tell you the intent of the plan right
now for the record , as Paul stated , is to tuck that frontage road up to
' TH 5 where there would not be developable property between the two areas .
Craig Harrington: Okay . The other question I have is and is for maybe the
' County Assessor . I was just curious about , we 're now in the MUSA line for
Timberwood as far as I understand right?
Krauss: No .
' Craig Harrington: We are or .
' Krauss: Oh , you 're proposed to be yeah .
Craig Harrington: We were a donut hole at one time but we all decided
that 's not the way to go but I was curious if the assessor would just
' comment . I think all of us in Timberwood area are especially concerned if
our tax value 's going to go up simply because of the public sewer and water
going in at this time . How that 's going to impact us once that becomes a
11 part .
Planning Commission Meeting 1
October 24 , 1990 - Page 14
Orlin Schafer : The MUSA line in itself does not increase property value .
That 's easy to say in theory but hard to prove . The results of the
MUSA line opens a lot of area , moving of that line, opens a lot of area toll
be developed . . . There 's several people in the audience tonight that I 've
had conversations with. . .that have addressed this problem and they said,
you 've got my property value and here I 'm sitting on 6 or 8 acres , you 've I
got my property value at $70,000.00 of real estate and that 's just
outrageous . I can 't use more than an acre and a half of that and therefore
$30 ,000.00 should be more appropriate . The truth of the matter is , when
the MUSA line opens up , if there 's some give and take in variances and
zoning and so forth, that probably can be developed so the MUSA line is
giving that individual an opportunity to do something more with his
property and many of these people are holding those pieces of property in
that light . With the development of that property in mind . The MUSA line '
would not increase the value from a tax point of view. Now special
assessments for the installation of the utilities . Those sorts of things .
I don 't even touch that . I have nothing to do with that . I don't even
want to give anyone the idea that that 's the case . They approve
assessments . . .specials by the advantage it gives to your property or the
value that it adds to the property because of the availability of those
utilities . That 's something entirely different. I deal with the value
that those utilities gives the property . . . We talk market . If it adds
some value as a part of the market is concerned. If you 're sitting out I
there on 2 1/2 acres , you 've got your own well and your own septic system
and you can have the MUSA going right in front of your yard and not hook
on . It really hasn 't added anything to your property unless you're using
it as a selling point to somebody that says hey, we 've got MUSA right here 11
If you ever have trouble with your well , it 's right out there in front .
Fine . When it 's stubbed in and we see you hooked onto it , we'll add the
value as far as the market from the market perspective but just because thll
line runs in front of you or touches you . . .that doesn 't really add. . .to
your property . That 's how we came to the . . .portion of who 's going to pay
for the construction . They 're going to tell you eventually you do . You
definitely do at some point in time . You 're going to hook onto that public,
utility . You will use the system at some point in time . There are certain
protections that you put into place for people that own property as this
line grows. As it expands . There are some agricultural things that we call
do that have been designed , they 're in place now to protect farm entities
from being swallowed up or forced to develop. . .customarily when
development , again there 's blocks of property . . .subdivided , the farmer
that 's retaining a piece of property in an attempt to farm feels the
pressure and his land value goes right through the roof . We have some
property when the . . .for $700 ,000.00 . We had. . .agricultural land at that
point in time . That 's the kind of pressure those people do. . .being taxed
off the farm . You've heard that before and you 'll continue to hear that ,
especially here in the metro area where there are safeguards that we use .
They must be used with caution because at some point in time you 're going
to dance or you pay the bank and somewhere down the road you might have to
pay real fast . For instance green acres is utilized, payments are
deferred . Taxes are held down and all of a sudden you sell off . You
become ineligible for green acres . You 've got 90 days to pay that and
Scott County is seeing some of that where they have some prime property
that should be developed and they can't, the people who own it can't affor
to sell it because all their assessments and all the back taxes will come
due in 90 days . They're just scared to death of selling . They wouldn't
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 15
get any money . They don't feel they would. So that is , in reference to the
' MUSA line . The line itself won 't do anything . It won 't do anything with
the value of your individual property until we see . . . If you have 40 acres
out there and the line comes across the bottom of it . . .subdivide your 40
acres, fine . We sit on it until we see you subdivide that 40 acres and
then we sit on it until we see you sell some lots so we 're really pretty
laid back . . . Anything else?
' Conrad: Thanks .
Craig Harrington: I appreciate that comment and I will hold you to it .
' I think as you know , we 're in a new development and pretty much everybody 's
going to stay with their own private well and septic and my concern was ,
and I agree . It should be based on market value and there 's that amenities
that we have when the MUSA line comes in but I just didn't want the values
' to jump up even though we 're not going to take any advantage of that use
for probably many years to come since we 've just put in brand new septic
and wells . The only other comment , parting comment I have is again , my
' • long standing comment is that I would not like to see the commercial/
industrial go west of McGlynn 's so that 's my comment .
Beverly VanderVorste: Beverly VanderVorste , 8141 Maplewood in Timberwood .
' I 've seen a lot of different things that have gone on around there and I
like what I see and I want to thank everybody .
' Conrad: Thank you . That may be the only positive thing we hear tonight
but thanks .
' Al Klingelhutz: I 've been asked to do this by a pretty good friend of mine
and it kind of hurts me to do it because I 've got a friend sitting right
here that 's just as good but Mr . Curry who is Scotland right now asked me
to read this letter that he sent to me and wants it put into the record .
It really bothers me when you get between a rock and hard place . A good
man sitting here and Jim Curry , a good' friend of mine and I agreed to him
that I would read this letter to you . It says , Re: Comprehensive Plan
' Public Hearing . It says I 'm unable to be with you tonight however Al
Klingelhutz is representing me . It says my wife and I own 75 acres off of
TH 212/TH 101 intersection . Paul Krauss has given surveys of this land
during the informal hearings held last summer . The land measures out to 45
acres of condemnation land and 30 other acres . Chanhassen city staff and
consultants are recommending that the land be shown as mixed use for the
comprehensive plan . This would include high density , commercial and
' freeway commercial . We believe this zoning for the intersection land is
very wise . Above all the city keeps it's option open as to the ultimate
use of the land. During the 199O's the city of Chanhassen will probably
' request a master plan for all the non-highway acres when a request comes in
for a use for any of the land . This will involve public hearings and give
everyone a chance to be heard . In addition , each land use that comes up
will go through the planning public hearing process . Once again everyone
will get a chance to be heard . In this way Chanhassen keeps all their
options open and will ultimately have a gateway spot into the city that
will be a real asset to the community . Yes , mixed use is a wise
I comprehensive plan designation for this area . It says I will be pleased to
expand on this statement or answer if there are any questions . It says
please make this statement a part of the public record. Thank you .
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 16
Sincerely, Jim Curry . And I guess I sat in on most of the meetings
pertaining to this comprhensive plan. In fact several of them and I know
there 's a lot of citizens been here and a lot of them had justifiable
complaints but overall I think the Planning Commission should be
complimented for doing an excellent job of putting this comprehensive plan
together . Thank you . I
(Applause! )
Conrad: I don't know how to deal with that . Other concerns or comments . '
Eric Rivkin: Eric Rivkin , I live in Lake Lucy Highlands and I want to take
about 8 minutes to explain my comments on the plan . Even though you ,
included the petitioned area within MUSA , you did address the underlying
concerns of many of the petitioners of which I am grateful . There 's always
a compromise to be struck and I think we 're headed in the right direction . I
Number one , you honored the original petition to keep at least Lake Lucy
Highlands classified as large lot for many reasons agreed with in the
petition . It appears you expect it to remain that way for the 15 year life
of this plan . I would also like to know though why some of the other
petitioners who did not change their minds did not have their land also
represented as large lot . Number two , in Mr . Erhart 's words in a letter
sent to Planning in response to the petition, I feel the commission has '
"gone out of their way to make it clear that it is the policy of the city
to discourage premature hook-up of homes with working septic systems . " and
that is one thing I also appreciate . It recognizes that many of us were
platted since 1985 with new systems built to current technology with
alternate drainfield sites . I would like to see a clarification in the
plan about the right to use alternate drainfield sites or to repair any
part of a system for those inside the MUSA . If a repair or replacement of I
a system can be done on a large lot property and environmental problems
would not become evident , then a single homeowner should have the right to
do so without being forced to hook up. This would also require a
MUSA amendment to my knowledge . I feel it 's only fair that this policy
would apply also to municipal water . I also agree with Mr . Erhart that his
comments that the Metro Council takes a hypocritical stance when they '
condemn septic system safety and then allow millions of gallons of raw
sewage to run into the Mississippi River . The plan recognizes that many of
these on-site systems would last longer than the life of the plan , perhaps
30 years . That means our new system would certainly not derive benefit for
the life of the plan . It 's also entirely possible that it may never derive
benefit because with proper care and maintenance , use of the alternate
drain site and use` of proven new technologies that could be adopted are I
conceiveably more environmentally sound. Septic systems may never fail .
The ones we have for even the life of the home . In the spirit of "going
out of your way" , I believe the plan should reflect that possibility rather,
than assume that hook-up will always be mandatory. A quick word about ,
there 's a couple of inaccuracies about some of the mapping on the plan .
One is there 's a lot the DNR owns on the west side of Lake Lucy. I 'll
point it out . It 's a 5 acre lot right here and . . .and I think there 's no I
reason that could not be designated as park open space . The other thing
is , contrary to some statements in the plan , expanding MUSA boundaries do
drastically increase property values. A case in point is the Carrico
property bought recently by the City for Pheasant Hills Park . That 's that
green square that 's right above Lake Lucy Highlands on Lake Lucy Road
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 17
11
there . The owner valued the raw land at $350 ,000.00 as if it had full
' development potential inside the MUSA yet as an argument to keep the
purchase price down to $145,000.00 , which is halfway between the $40,000 .00
or so that the City had an appraisal at and the owner 's price , it was
argued that it did not have that potential because it was outside of the
' MUSA . It 's not even in the MUSA yet and already had the price boosted .
. .property values because past history shows that sometimes homeowners are
made to share the cost of installing utilities in adjacent property
' developments in many cases when there are many years left on their septic
systems . Pending special assessments on record cause banks to withhold
that money preventing the use of it . When the homeowner 's not deriving any
benefit from that utility . In effect the assessment is as good as levied .
' There's a comment in the Comp Plan about parks . It says that for local
parks , small neighborhood parks like Greenwood Shores and some of the other
small green parks , the dots that you see around the map there . It says the
key ingredient for successful local parks is quick , convenient access . If
that 's policy is applied to all the local parks , does that mean that
Greenwood Shores should have on street parking? Hot one but I 'm going to
make it on record now . I 'm raising the question . Okay , I don 't have an
opinion one way or the other . I 'm just representing a lake association on
that okay? In general the plan has many nice things to say about
preserving the natural amenities that make what the people want
' Chanhassen 's character to be . I think the plan should emphasize this more
by recognizing the natural amenities are the very soul of the city and that
they must be preserved , restored or recreated as development progresses .
I believe development from now on should give back more than it takes away
in terms of environmental impact and should take forms in both
encouragement programs and formal policy . I think the creative zoning
classifications such as , I 'm going to make one up . RES , Residential
Environmentally Sustaining and abolish all the other zoning classifications
and more comprehensive aesthetic design guidance by the Comp Plan would
prevent this squeeze every inch you can sprawling suburb that is so
unappealing and psychologically and environmentally damaging . I don 't
think that return on investment should ever be the only criteria in
planning a development . I like the buffer yard concept that is mentioned
in there . To separate residential from industrial but I think you should
insist that they be landscaped with natural variations and contour heights
and foliage rather than unsightly straight bunkers and army landscaped half
dead trees . Most of them should be required to be landscaped to support
' wildlife by planting adequate native cover and prairie grasses . They
provide a self-sustaining type of landscaping and are non-polluting because
no fertilizers are required and they act as a drainage buffer for nutrients
and sediments which is a stated goal in the Comp Plan and- is a goal by
the Metropolitan Council to try to reduce non-point source pollution into
the river . This technique should also be applied between and within
residential developments as you have already mentioned but allow tighter
clustering by creative zoning to maintain and manage the rural character
that Chanhassen residents want . More open space can be preserved by
keeping farms in certain areas . Non-point source pollution from
' agriculture can be avoided by converting to sustainable organic methods now
gaining widespread popularity . The plan should encourage farmers to stay
and not sell out because of development pressures . Strict guidelines that
go beyond inadequate State or Federal standards on visual , noise , odor and
air pollution have been done elsewhere in creative affordable visually
appealling developments. In the pioneering spirit of Chanhassen , I would
1
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 18
expect those kinds of guidelines too . Thank you very much .
Conrad: Thank you Eric . I do appreciate all your energy as we've gone
through this . You 've challenged us at the right time . Maybe we can I
respond to a couple of your thoughts . You could sit if you like or stand
but you said so many things . I don 't know really the right place to start
but I am like you concerned and like a lot of residents, concerned about
our standards for sewer hook-up . Paul , I 'm going to ask you to , a lot of
what you said just may not relate directly to the comprehensive plan .
Really relates a great deal to standards and to things that may not be in •
that plan . It 's enforcement and it 's the how to's that maybe the plan
doesn 't deal with but Gary, I guess you're better . We 'll take Paul off thell
hook . Gary , you 're the one to really talk about sewer hook-up standards ,
repair . I think a lot of people are nervous that as soon as that sewer is I
there , that you know they 're forced to do some things . Could you relate ,
and I guess the issue is , do we have the standards in place right now or is
that something that we have to take a look at given the fact that we 're
moving the MUSA out and we have some property owners that may have , like ir�
Timberwood case , we have adequate sewers there and I think we 've reviewed
that and shown that septic systems are equal if not better . Well , equal .
I won 't say the word better but equal to what we get from our buried sewer
system . Gary , can you handle any of those questions that I laid out there .
Warren: I 'll certainly try . Septic systems issue , we talk about the new
systems . The 2 1/2 acres where the systems have to verify that they
actually have an alternate treatment site in the event of a failure . I
think the City has done good to try to comply with the requirements
actually of the Met Council or the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission
trying to strike some compromise already to allow us to exist with those
types of systems . The impression that the City is looking to go out and
blatantly force homeowners off of septic systems and onto a public utility II
I think is wrong ,and should not be the understanding around here . They are
very unique . Any of the public improvement projects that we do to address
pollution problems of this nature, we just extended a small extension along
Lake Lucy Road to service the O 'Brien/Harvey property for example where we
had failing systems there and granted these were older systems where they
didn 't have alternates available . Each of those become so unique that it 's
very difficult to write a comprehensive policy saying you shall or you
shall not connect or not connect in this regard. I think the statement
that is in the draft plan right now I think is a very accurate and good
guide as to the intentions of the city in not looking to force homeowners
off of their systems if they are accountable and able to maintain those
systems and show that they are not as Eric referenced here , a detriment to
the environment . I think that 's what we're all interested in. Whether you
service that by private systems or by a public utility, I guess there is
documentation to show that the private systems can sustain themselves if
properly maintained. There is a potential fallacy in that just because a
property was shown at the time of platting to have alternate sites, that it
will continue to have two alternate sites or an auxilliary site . What a
homeowner does to the property in modifying the grading can disturb the
alternate site in fact to the point where you would not have an alternate
site . So I think there 's some realities that happen here as systems age .
As properties get sold to other property owners who pass it on to other
property owners and none of the systems ever fail at the same time . Were
that the case , you wouldn 't have a question about it . The Crestview/ West
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 19
11
65th Street issue just west of Galpin is an example where we had several
' failing systems . Some that were new that didn 't want to have the sewer in
there and it took a conscientious look through a feasibility study to say
what 's right and what 's wrong and it really is a very unique situation so I
really feel that the comp ,plan as it 's written now is sympathetic and
' expresses well I think the policy in general terms that the City should
look to . I think as the systems age we're going to have to respond
specifically to each of those cases as they develop .
Eric Rivkin: I do agree with the wording in the plan . I did comment that
it was , it 's at least in my best interest but I do just take issue with you
' know one assumption in those words and that 's the word premature . You
assume that somebody will , all septic systems will eventually hook up . I
guess I take issue with that . That 's all . That we have such current
standards are and the technologies that I use anyway , the 5B2 system are
' such that I mean Jeff Swedlund my installer said it 's sized for an
apartment building for what was put into my place . I don 't plan , I can 't
subdivide . I can 't disturb the site number 2 . The alternate site , as a
' lot of the people in Lake Lucy Highlands can 't do , and so we 're just
wondering about the future .
Conrad: Eric , a couple other things . When you said the natural features
' being the corner stone . You can see we wove natural features in .real
heavily into the plan . As long as I 've been around we 've found that it 's
better to protect what you want rather than zone against stuff that you
' don 't want . So a heavy concentration on protecting the natural amenities
for why we moved here in the first place . You brought that point up as a
corner stone comment . If you have wording that you feel strengthens , we
play with wording a whole bunch . You know if you 've got any other wording
that does it , I 'd sure appreciate you sending us that and we 'd take a look
at it . But it 's laced throughout here and that was one of the intentions
of staff . I think it was of the Planning Commission also .
Eric Rivkin : It 's just that sometimes strong enough policy doesn 't make it
out into the how to's as you can see you know . There 's straight line
' bunkers as short as possible with half dead trees on them you know
scattered throughout town and you know , sometimes the Council says well our
hands are tied and we can't make the developer do that but it would be nice
to try and eliminate and get these things done up front so a developer can
take a look at the comp plan and try to design out those problems before
they get to the Council .
' Conrad: Buffer yard standards, we'll be looking at those . Noise
standards , we are looking at noise . Paul , what are we doing with noise
standards? We 've talked about it . Have we done anything? Is it on our
' work?
Krauss: Not specifically , no. There was a consideration of a noise
ordinance last year . That really didn 't reach any kind of fruitition . We
'
are regulated of course by State noise standards which are stiffer than the
Federal noise standards and those are in place of course .
Eric Rivkin: Thank you . I think you did a good job . •
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 20
Joe Morin: Yeah I do too . For the most part I think what Eric said is II
complimentary and I think for the most part the comprehensive plan is well
done . There are some exceptions where people are still being treated
unfairly but I honestly believe that you people are listening to the input"
that you 're getting and I 'm hopeful that some of these unfair situations
will be mitigated . So in general I really appreciate .
Conrad: What 's your name for the record? '
Joe Morin: Oh! My name is Joe Morin . I 'm living at 1441 Lake Lucy Road .
My general comment is that I appreciate your concerns for the environment I
in the comprehensive plan . I 've scanned through most of it . I like your
statements about open spaces and low density . I would like to see more , in
general more property especially around the Lake Lucy area and Lake Ann
area designated as larger lots . So that 's a general comment . I think
right now I 'd like to thank Paul Krauss for the time that he spent
yesterday . He spent an hour and a half with my wife and I helping us I
understand the impact of this comprehensive plan on our property and I
don 't think there are many officials in other cities that would have done
that and I really appreciate it . Now specifically the area I want to talk
about in the plan that I 'm concerned about is in the land use section on
page 22 and 23 . Particularly on 23 . There we refer to the Lake Lucy
Highlands area and in the plan we talk about on-site wells and sewage
disposal systems that have been built to required standards . We talk abou
the fact that this represented a substantial investment on the part of the
landowners in the Lake Lucy Highlands area and that the city policy here i
that these areas be given special consideration. The special
considerations are itemized as number 1 , they 're not required to hook into '
city utilities . Number 2 , they 're not required to pay utility assessments
until the utility extensions are required to serve them and I think that 's
eminently fair . These people have working systems . They have sufficient '
land to put in another system should it fail in the next 30 years which
isn 't likely and so I think that 's eminently fair . The only problem I have
with it is that it only applies to the Lake Lucy Highlands area and I thin
there 's a lot of other people in the Chanhassen area that are impacted by
this MUSA line change that are in the same situation and I 'm one of them .
We moved into our home in a year and a half ago. In April of 1989 and I
think our systems are probably more recent than most of the systems around '
here including the Lake Lucy Highlands area and I think that what 's fair
for those people is also fair for me. The other people in the community
that are in similar circumstances so what I 'd like to see is that that
special , what is it a special consideration be more of a general policy
that applies to everyone who has working systems . Everyone who has
sufficient land to upgrade those systems should they fail in the next 30
years . So I don't want a specific policy that Rind of discriminates I
against other people in my situation and I 'd encourage other people here
who feel the same way to speak up and make their concerns known. I don't
think it would be very difficult to administer something like that . It 'd
be simply keeping a list of which people meet those requirements . Now I 'm I
not concerned about a couple hundred dollars or something like that . If a
utility comes by and I get assessed for it . I 'm concerned about major
possible impacts to my area . And so I have a special concern too that I 'd '
like to kind of show you on the map of right about where I am here .
Specifically this is where my property is right here . South of Lake Lucy
Road and it 's a 5 acre parcel . It 's mostly wetland. It's a large pond .
I
1 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 21
Brian Tichey has the parcel right next to me so the pond kind of , our
property is kind of split right down the middle of this pond dividing the
property. Brian 's is a 5 acre parcel right in line and most of that area
is undevelopable as wetlands and so forth . However , the terrain in this
area tends to roll downhill . That 's why they have . . .because the water kind
' of drains in that direction . Paul was explaining to me that the sewage
tends to roll downhill and so a likely scenario for developing sewer in
this area would be something that might connect these areas to the Lake Ann
' Interceptor and that 's a major , major work . Engineering feat if you will .
It 's about a couple of miles . Maybe a mile . . .Maybe 2 miles through a
wetland area which would be very expensive to put in. We 're talking maybe
a million dollars . More than that and an assessment to me for my portion
' of that would possibly drive that up and I 'm very concerned about that . . .
It 's also a threat to the people in the Lake Lucy Highlands area who are
given, how are they given special consideration and should that kind of
' sewage line be put in , they 're not required to pay utility assessments and
I want to be also included in that special consideration because I don't
plan to ever use that . I don 't plan to develop my area . I 'm in the same
' situation they are . I have a working system that will last the next 30
years . It will last for the life of this comprehensive plan and . . . Those
are basically my comments .
•
Conrad: Okay , thanks Joe . Paul or Gary , can you respond to that request?
Krauss: One of the concerns that we 've had and one of the things that
I we 've looked at was coming up with a MUSA line that made sense . That was
reasonable from the standpoint that , (a ) the Metro Council would buy it and
that 's not an easy task . If we wiggle around the MUSA line so that we hit
' and miss lots at the current whim or current wish of the owner , the Metro
Council 's going to throw out that MUSA line amendment because it doesn 't
pass a reasonable test . But more important for us is that it makes it very
difficult , if not impossible to extend utilities and streets and provide
' services at such time that those are required. If we have a checker board
pattern , that may asceed to the wish of the individual owners but roads
don 't take checker board patterns and sewer lines don 't just end and then
' start again. What we 've done is , the Planning Commission took a lot of
testimony and determined that Lake Lucy Highlands , that Timberwood , that
Sunridge Court , are basically relics of an ordinance that hasn't existed
since 1987 . Actually Sunridge Court is actually a more recent than that
but they represent a platting, a type of development that is no longer
allowed in the community anywhere within, well no longer allowed in the
community . That 's by contract with the Metro Council . You now, outside
the MUSA line you can only develop 1 home for every 10 acres on gross
density with a minimum lot size of 2 1/2 acres. When the Planning
Commission looked at these 3 subdivisions, they felt that because these
' areas were so concentrated and because from our point of view there is no
more development potential in these subdivision . There's that one house
sitting in the middle of a 2 1/2 acre lot . It has a new on site sewer
system . It has the road that it's already going to need . Timberwood has
all the roads in place , that we don't need to look at providing any
services for those areas . We can't make that assumption when we look up
and down a street and we have 3 property owners that want to do something
in the next 10 years . 2 property owners that don 't . Another one that
does . It simply doesn 't work efficiently in that manner . At the request
of the Planning Commission we contacted not only the Metro Council to get
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 22
their policy input on that question but we contacted a number of other ,'
communities that are developing or in the stage of development as we are
and two , everybody said don't under any circumstances allow these
checkerboard patterns to develop because they 're impossible to deal with
after the fact . That was our recommendation to the Planning Commission an
c�
that was the determination of the Planning Commission in defining the MUSA
line where it was . There was some gross deviations to the MUSA line that
were considered . Throwing out a large section up near Lake Lucy Highlands "
Many lots . I believe there was a petition that was circulated by Mr .
Rivkin and we looked at an alternate land use scenario that would have
brought in a sufficient amount of acreage closer to TH 5 . The Planning
Commission had some difficulty with that alternative but equally
importantly there didn't seem to be any uniform opinion. There was no real
large block of owners that decided one way or the other . There were a lot
of owners that signed a petition . There were a lot of owners that came to
public meeting that we had this summer that said they didn 't sign the
petition and they. wanted the right to do something with their property .
All things being equal , I think the course of action the Planning
Commission took was to keep the MUSA line where they 've shown it and to tr
to develop policies that were sensitive to the individual needs of
individual property owners . We can't , these things are so detailed and I
when we 're talking about an individual sewer line or an individual water
line , then we can 't really be more specific as to exactly how we would
treat an individual lot in an individual circumstance except to try to set
a policy tone that says we 'll try to be as cooperative as possible and we
understand that we 're not trying to force things to happen . That we 're no
trying to force the premature retirement of on-site sewer or force
additional expense . And that 's pretty much the policy that 's been '
incorporated in the comprehensive plan.
Conrad: Alright . Gary , what kind of special assessments would Joe look
forward to in the future if he wanted to keep , in this particular case
I think we made the decision per Paul 's statement , as to how to develop
that from a sewer standpoint but in terms of special assessments when a
sewer would go in . How would his property be dealt with?
Warren: I couldn 't give you an exact dollar amount by any means . What I
was going to add Mr . Chairman is that whenever the City undertakes a publi
improvement process , it has to follow the hearing process. The feasibility
study process . The whole 9 yards as far as involving the property owners
who are affected or proposed for assessments . So just to make sure that
there isn 't the impression out there that the City can all of a sudden go
out and just put in a sanitary sewer intercept around Lake Lucy and say
we 're going to service all these lots , it is a very formal process that
will allow input from the public and on the affected people and by law I
requires us to notify them of the proposals . As a part of that process ,
that the details are hammered out as far as who is proposed for
assessments . Who isn 't , for whatever reason and that 's really what 's
worked out . It can become very specific to the fact that this person
doesn 't have any frontage on a road project but because he benefits from it
we give him an off-line assessment to recognize that benefit . There isn't
a book written that can address all of the situations . And it does have tc'
stand the test of benefit in a court of law. We cannot assess a property
if we cannot sustain the value of that assessment that the property 's
actually increasing by that amount as a minimal . '
Planning Commission Meeting
9
October 24 , 1990 - Page 23
I
' Gerry Alvey: My name is Gerry Alvey . I live at 1831 Sunridge Court and
I 've got some questions . I 'm a little confused on the issue of the water
service and the septic fields for some of the large lot developments that
have rather new services . I understand that they 're exempted from tying
' into the city services but also in these large developments, they are new
enough that not all of the homesites have homes built upon them . If a new
homeowner comes in and purchases after these areas are within the MUSA
line , would that new homeowner then have to tie into city systems?
Krauss: I can answer that . You know we didn't deal with that specifically
Gerry . I guess we didn 't envision it as a problem because we assumed that
these developments would continue to build out in the way that they 've been
approved which is with on-site sewer and water .
' Gerry Alvey: I guess that was my question. What I was leading to is if
any of the new homeowners that purchased after it 's within the MUSA were
required to tie into the city systems , then what would the assessments be
' for the trunk lines that would have to be run?
Krauss: We never envisioned that .
Gerry Alvey: Okay . Again , for the people that have those systems , if they
have a failure of their system , does that mean that they then have to tie
in or can they repair that failure?
Warren: I think what we 're saying as a general policy is that in these
specific cases where they have the new systems where they have to have an
' alternate system initially when the site is constructed , that they will be
given an opportunity to show that they can , if they choose to spend the
money in that way , put an alternate site or rehab their existing system .
It 's also important to keep in mind that we do not have the ability to just
' run an isolated sewer line to one specific lot in a subdivision . We have
to have the trunk main . You 're looking at really a comprehensive
construction project and if it would come to that , then you 're looking at
' all the properties being involved in one way or another . And that is what
primarily what makes it difficult . Let 's say we have one property in
Timberwood Estates that for whatever reason , the soils were improperly
' diagnosed or they fail for whatever reason and that property is unable to
place an alternate treatment site on it 's site . The only option available
to it short of us running a public sewer to it is to put in a holding tank
and continue to pump that . You can talk to Mr . Harvey on_Lake Lucy Road
' the expense involved with that so there is a risk I think that every
property owner who has a private system should know if they don't already
and that. is stuff happens and it 's not always said that nicely. . . .and
' even if you have 5 alternate sites , you may not be able to come up with one
that will qualify but we will not be running a sewer just to service one
isolated property because can potentially put a hardship on that property
owner to come up with an alternate means and the most dramatic is to have
' to hold all your sewage and have it pumped every week .
Gerry Alvey: Okay , I think that answers my question . So if there is a
failure with an existing system and it can be shown that that failure could
11 be repaired , that would be at the homeowner 's option to do so?
Warren: Yes .
1
Planning Commission Meeting -
October 24 , 1990 - Page 24
Gerry Alvey: Okay , thank you . I
Conrad: I think it 's real important to note that , it sounds like we're
making compromises through here . I think the direction is to maintain the I
quality of a septic system . From an environmental standpoint , that 's
really quite important but we 've shown the flexibility or we 're showing th
sensitivity to not force homeowners to do one thing or another in some of
these situations but still to maintain the quality that we all expect in
terms of sewage disposal .
Craig Mertz: I 'm Craig Mertz . I 'm here as attorney for Lakeview Hills '
Investment Group . That is the group that owns the Lakeview Hills Apartment
complex to put a location on it . This is the land that lies between Rice
Marsh Lake and Lake Riley . We 're bounded on the east by the Eden Prairie
boundary and on the south by the frontage road along Lake Riley and on the
north by Rice Marsh Lake . This particular piece of property has a zoning
history that goes back to the Chanhassen Township days, specifically more
than 27 years . It was in 1963 that the Chanhassen Township Board approved
this site for a 15 building apartment site . 525 units . Ultimately the
owners of the property only took out the building permits for 5 of the 15 ,
buildings but it has had a high density zoning category ever since 1963 .
The present owners of the property prior to their sale did investigate the
situation and were aware of the zoning history and bought it with the
expectation that this property did have a development history . Now the map'
before you indicates that the north half of the site is being transformed
into a potential highway corridor and potential park . Another element that
I don't know that all of the commissioners would be aware of was is that
1977 the City approached the owners of this property seeking sewer lines
across the site and at that time the then city engineer assured the owners
that this sewer development was not going to affect the potential
development of an' additional 350 units of apartment buildings on this
particular property . Now I didn 't bring my crystal ball along tonight
and I can 't tell you whether Lakeview Hills Investment Group would be the
ultimate developer of this property or we would simply be holding this for I
resale but I can tell you that we believe that this, the adoption of this
map will have a negative impact on our property . Our buyers are going to
look at this with the idea that they are not going to be able to utilize I
. the northerly portion of this property for development unlike my clients
when they bought the property . What the investment group doesn 't want to
become is the involuntary and defacto owner of a city park . This comment 's
directed more to the City Council rather than to the commissioners because '
I know you folks don 't have control over this particular thing but the
investment group doesn't want to be put into the position where we can
neither fully develop this site yet you folks take no steps to acquire it
as parkland or highway corridor so I ask that the city not put us in that
dilemma .
Conrad: Mark , tell us about that park site. Do you recall? '
Krauss: I think I can do this one . This is one park I know . There a-e
several activities going on at the same time here that affect that
property . It has , it 's obviously been developed with multiple use for a
number of years and there is a vacant lot , well there is vacant land to the
west that is also in that designation and continues to maintain that '
•
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 25
designation . As everybody is aware , last fall the TH 212 corridor was
officially mapped . We now know with a great deal of certainty , we think ,
' exactly where that road is going to go . We know that a lot better than
we 've known it for a long time . That highway bisects this property. . It
creates two separate parcels. Now we do have a program whereby owners who
' are put upon by future highway corridor designations can put their property
up for sale for like , it 's basically an early take process to help buffer
the financial impact . So if this highway 's not built for 10 years or for 5
years, that there is a mechanism in place with funds provided by the State
' Legislature to acquire that property today and reduce the financial burden .
But what the highway does is it bisects most of that site from a highly
attractive natural area by Rice Marsh Lake . When we realized what that
' area was , it contains wetlands . It contains a heavy oak forest with
beautiful views out over the lake , we believe that it should be preserved
as recreational land . Now simply putting a designation on a map saying
that this should be a park doesn't make it a part . The City is basically
' put in the position that if we want to bring that about , if we want to make
that a park , we 're going to have to acquire that . We 'll either have to
acquire it through dedication when additional development is proposed or
we 're going to have to buy it . If we 're not in a position to do that , the
owner is entitled to a reasonable use of the property . So basically the
owner 's in a position to tell us to put up or shut up and at some point
' we 're going to have to make good on our commitment or give it up . But we
do believe that that park is a highly attractive site and warrants some
protection and it factors into our natural features plan and our
recreational plans and that 's how that came about .
Conrad: I think that 's a great park site but Craig , I also understand what
you 're representing .
Craig Mertz: We don 't dispute that this might be a terrific site for a
park . It 's just that we don't want to be the owners of . . .
' Conrad: Okay . I think the City Council will take your comments under
consideration .
Mark Williams: Mark Williams , 1655 Lake Lucy Road . One more little word
about Lake Lucy Highlands . I do appreciate the large lot designation in
that area and am strongly in favor of it. Also, I firmly believe that we
' would not derive any benefit or deserve any assessment from the Lake Ann
Interceptor . I also do understand the concerns of people in a similar
situation that are not presently or are not in the Lake Lucy Highlands but
' have similar acreage and septic systems so I appreciate that present
designation and hope that it stays that way . Thank you .
Dennis Dirlum: My name's Dennis Dirlum. I 'm one of the partners that owns
' the property around north and east of the Timberwood. I sit here and look
at the plan and it looks like the staff and the Planning Commission have
certainly done a wonderful job in laying this all out but there is one
' glaring error , mistake and that is that area , my property where we are
stuck with a low density housing next to what is soon to be a four lane
highway and a frontage road. If you look anywhere else along TH 5, there 's
a definite buffer of some red . Different shades of red or brown or green .
Nowhere else on there is there a place where you have put yellow or is
there existing yellow. We 've certainly taken the consideration the
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 26
homeowners of Timberwood and wanted to protect them from any of the bad II
zoning and as our assessor has said , that industrial parks aren 't
necessarily bad. People are buying lots next to industrial parks and they
aren 't having an negative affect . And given the elevation and the
vegetation around Timberwood, there's a very good buffer already existing .
What we 're not stuck with with the way you have it here is single family
lots backing up to a 4 lane road with no buffer . There's no trees . It 's
just wide open land right next to the highway. I 'm not sure what the
frontage road has done by swinging the frontage road. If that is part of
the City 's intent to give those houses a buffer to TH 5 , the four lane .
Maybe that makes some sense . If that 's the case, then let's move the
frontage road to the south and put it closer to Timberwood and then put
some industrial next to the highway where it belongs . I 'm a real estate
developer . I 've developed land for the last 12 years in Eden Prairie . Onil
of the sites that I had an option on about 3 years ago was along TH 5 in
the western part of Eden Prairie along the Chnahassen/Eden Prairie border .
Around the Kerber 's slew . We developed about 90 lots around that
subdivision and it sold out very quickly . It was a very nice area . One oll
the last pieces to pick up was on the very east side that went down to
TH 5 . We received city approval . We went out to the builders to sell the
lots in a moderate price range for homes in the $130,000 .00 to $180 ,000 .001
price range and the builders said no . We can 't or realtors can 't sell
these . We 're not interested in these lots . We 'd just blown through the
other 90 lots in a year and a half but we can't take those . They will not
sell . People don't want to be next to TH 5 . Then we looked at townhouse . '
Can we go to the townhouse developers? The townhouse developers weren 't
interested . We did finally find single family builders that were
interested in buying starter homes if the lots were priced around
$20 ,000 .00 . So if you interperlate that into what the price of the home ill
going to be , you 're probably, looking at under $100 ,000 .00 . I don 't think
that this , number one is the location for single family homes nor do
I think it 's going to do the homeowners of Timberwood or the City of
Chanhassen any good to have that kind of houses priced in that area . I 'd
ask you to go back and take another look at this area . Industrial makes I
sense . Well planned industrial and that 's what we 've always been talking
about . And you know there is a good buffer between Timberwood now and we
propose to put a buffer area between us in addition to it on our property
and I think that 's a good alternative also . Thank you . '
Conrad: Thank you Dennis. We 'll probably come back to that later on .
Sam Mancino: Sam Mancino from 6620 Galpin Blvd. and I recognize that it's I
been a long process that you 've been through to try to plan this and thank
you for your help in trying to make it work . I have to speak kind of from
. a feeling level that I think my wife and I sort of feel cheated out of 10 ,
years because when we moved in here about 8 years ago we did look through
the comprehensive plan that was in place at that time and it looked like
our land would be pretty much rural and secluded for another 10 years into '
1999 or 2000 . And I believe that development really follows these
comprehensive land plans and it becomes zoning and it forces the
development around us . My problem is that we moved into a large lot area
and right now north of TH 5 I don't believe there's any new large lot area
built into the plan and we'd like to be able to look around us at more
large lot development . Let me point this out . Our property is right here .
You have it adjoining or right across Galpin Blvd. is from the Highland's 1
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 27
area . Just slightly south of that is the Carlson property which is . . .into
a very large lot area . There's a very small sliver in here that separates
' two pieces that I think . . .large lot over a long period of time . My fear is
that if you keep it zoned the way it is , that we will start forcing small
lot development almost immediately to the west here to TH 41 because I know
11 that that property has already got stub sewer line into it . So I would
imagine that will happen almost immediately as soon as the process goes
through . As a land owner that 's been here for this long , I resent having
to be forced into a position of having to move away from the kind of a
1 situation of living in a rural area and driving and I put up and I enjoy
the drive into Minneapolis a half hour every day but I do that because
I have the land buffer around me and I don 't feel like I should have to
drive a half an hour to drive into single small lot areas . That isn 't what
I intended to do so I am forced either to move out further or to shrug my
shoulders and move back into Minneapolis . I would appreciate if we could
find a way to extend the large lot useage where there 's already
predominantly large lot useage right now . Thank you .
Conrad: Thanks Sam .
Rich Larson: My name is Rich Larson and I live at 8141 Pinewood Circle .
I 'm going to agree with the last person and I kind of violently disagree
with the previous person before me . My wife and I looked at the
comprehensive plan last year when we moved into the area and there was a
good deal of residential in the current plan and to have someone say that
' people don 't mind moving into an area where there is an industrial park is
one thing but to move into an area expecting residential to be part of the
plan for some time is totally different . To change that would kind of
interfere with a number of people 's plans and intent for moving into the
Timberwood area . Enough said on that . I 've got another concern about this
study area . Nobody 's really said much about that tonight . That's kind of
kitty corner from where we live right now and there have been a number of
things discussed there . I 've got a comment and then a question for you .
My comment is , I would really not like to see something like Mill 's Fleet
Farm move into that area . I know they own the land but . What?
Mary Harrington: Amen .
Rich Larson: Okay. I think that would be a disaster to put that ( a ) right
' near the Arboretum . Near Lake Minnewashta and to have more commercial/
industrial development along TH 5 whereas you know he pointed out the
yellow strip along TH 5 is an abberation but I say it 's a great abberation
because you drive in from Eden Prairie and there's nothing but industry
ialong TH 5 . And to space it out with some green and looking towards the
future , you tear up the land and put in industry along that . You 're never
going to get it back . We 're going to pave it over and be sorry someday .
' So that 's my comment that I 'd like to see that kept as environmentally
intact as it is and not to see something like a Mill 's Fleet Farm . My
question for you is , I know it 's a study area but what are your thoughts as
to what will eventually be done with that? That's my question .
Conrad: You 've got to be pretty realistic about what that intersection is
good for . It 's on two major highways and you know , I guess I have to be
real realistic. Commercial development there is probably a pretty good bet
but we 're not sure right now and that 's why it 's a study area . Paul , why
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 28
don 't you jump in on that and you know, I don't want to deceive people at II
all . 10 years is a long way or 5 years is a long way . We don't know . We
really don 't know exactly how we 're going to develop in the next 5 years
but some of that development will tell us how to use that property a little
bit better . Paul?
Krauss: The study areas came about for a couple of reasons. First thing
is that there was a determination made that unlike a lot of communities ,
that Chanhassen's Comprehensive Plan would be reasonable in terms of what
we go to the Metro Council seeking an expansion of the MUSA line . There
were a number of communities that have recently in 10 years ago just
'platted from fence line to fence line or planned from fence line to fence
line on the assumption that development would automatically follow because
it 's on a piece of paper . Well it didn't happen and the Metro Council has
problems with that and communities have problems with it . If you bring to
c'
much land into the system too quickly , you have growth rates that are
difficult to manage . You have developments that are difficult to control . •
You have developments that 's expensive and scattershot and difficult to
service and nobody wants to do that so there was a policy statement made
early on that said that only a reasonable amount of land would be in this
proposal to adjust the MUSA line . That study area represents to a greater '
or lesser extent , and the line 's not cast in concrete exactly where it
needs to be but there 's a limit to how much land we can reasonably ask to
bring in and if that entire study area were considered or if the other
study area were considered, there would be too much . We couldn 't justify
those levels of growth reasonably nor would we want to try . The second
thing is that the City Planning Commission was fully aware of the fact that
Mill 's Fleet Farm owns that corner but there 's an overriding concern that 1
the Chanhassen Central Business District be allowed to reach fruition
before anything else is considered that might be detrimental to that . And
it 's a national problem where you have central business districts that hay
been destroyed by premature or wrong headed shopping center development on
the fringe and that 's something that everybody wanted to avoid. By
establishing at it as a study area , we 're essentially postponing a
determination on what should be done in there in the hope that 5 years froril
now who 's ever sitting at this table may have more wisdom and more
information than we have now to make a better choice . Having said that
though , when we had our informational meetings during the summer , there
were a number of requests from different residents adjacent or near both
study areas to have some understanding of what might be considered in
there . Not that these areas would be brought into the MUSA early I
necessarily but that planning efforts should be undertaken so that people
can make decisions, people will move into an area knowing ahead of time
what might happen . And the Planning Commission is basically accepted that
and has set as a goal I believe the next process they will embark on is toil
attempt to define or get a handle on what those study areas may be . Not t
bring them into the MUSA now but to get an idea so we can show it on a map
and people can make more intelligent decisions . That's something that will
be embarked upon after this plan is complete so hopefully we'll have some
more information on that in the not too distant future .
Mary Harrington: Hi guys . I showed up. I 'm Mary Harrington, Timberwood .
Arrived a little late tonight . You guys have been hard at work and not to
bad . Maybe you could solve some problems , I 'm not sure , by moving that
frontage road back up towards TH 5 and cutting it down into this thing and '
11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 29
11 leaving a little 2 or 3 acre industrial creature over here and that would
bring these medium density folks without sandwiching them between an
arterial type road and then TH 5. Having a couple months ago been out
doing some review work , as I 'm an appraiser , in Chicago I was running down
some of their major highways and in the older districts of the town they
had some of them where they were just gummed to death with commercial/
U industrial . It was beautiful buildings but totally sterile, unaesthetic
junk and then there was this section on the same highway where there was
just nothing but ' trees and houses and grass and it was extremely pleasant
to look at visually . Very aesthetic . The other stuff looked very tacky
even though it was new construction. Chanhassen cannot afford to start
looking like some of these planned towns that we just gum up our highways
with the stuff like we have between the beginning of Chanhassen and
' Chanhassen Industrial Park . Condensers and flat stuff . We need the green
space . We need it not to look unaesthetic . I mean our only space is
basically at the present the Arboretum and it 's a terrible eye sore to turn
' our town in just because speculaters are buying property and trying to
capitalize at highest potential dollar bill useage which would obviously be
something other than residential . There 's more to our town than just the
investor himself . We all have to live here and the investor usually
' doesn't but you might think of maybe moving that thing up there and taking
a cut down there . We 'd still have the road , you know if that helps anybody
out or not .
' Conrad: Can you turn that this way so we can see what you 're doing .
' Mary Harrington: . . .then take a cut here and leave . . .That kind of a
concept . That would save these poor guys and somebody mentioned that we
don 't want $90 ,000 .00 houses in Chanhassen . I don 't see why not . I mean
people are entitled to buy a $90 ,000.00 house and it can be rather nice .
I have no complaint about that . Sadden to see that we have the industrial
jumping up next to Carlson 's property up here . Someway we can shrink that
down or something? But I 'd also like to see a few less of it other places
' and I 'd really wish we would address a little of the 1995 study area here
because it would help us to plan maybe some of this other stuff . Also , if
there 's any other way you can get some more large lot designations , I 'm
' sure a lot of us would enjoy seeing that but you've been hard at work guys .
Roman Roos: Good evening . Roman Roos , 10341 Heidi Lane , Chaska . After
that presentation I think I 'd need a road map to get through my property .
' I guess having sat on the Planning Commission for a good number of years
and 10 years ago going through exactly what you're going through, I have a
lot of empathy but I guess if we look at the 10 years that have' passed and
we look at the present time and look at the evolution of what 's happened in
Chanhassen on the industrial park and it 's expansion if you will westbound
through McGlynn , the natural terrain of TH 5 and the railroad running to
the southwest along with the Chaska developments, Arbor Park North , Arbor
' Park West which would be the very corner white area next to the acreage she
was talking about . Maybe I 'll just move over there a second. It was
mentioned earlier , this is also industrial park . The natural boundary of
' the northern park area as I would see it . . .TH 5 four lane . One of the
things the city of Chanhassen has to accept , both on the Planning
Commission level and the Council level is when Timberwood came in, at that
point in time we didn 't know how the evolution . . .industrial area would be .
I think at this point in time we have to really own up to the fact that
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 30
we've created a community, a very nice community so we're going to have toll
kind of ask some of the questions such as buffering it . How we can control'
that . . .to get the natural evolution of . . .park to the westbound area . There
is no clean answers . . .but I think when you look at and go out to the I
industrial park to the west in Chaska , the proposed area here industrial .
This industrial area down here along with the . . .station . What 's
happening . . .so far back here, possibly this should not be industrial .
Maybe it should be a natural break , natural buffer into the residential
community . So I think it 's going to be a tough issue but I guess I want til
go on record as saying that I think that from the standpoint of evolution
of the community , the natural buffering of TH 5 and the railroad, we 're
going to have to find some solution such as the buffering effect for the
Timberwood area . . .
Conrad: Other comments . '
Steve Longman: Good evening . My name is Steve Longman and I 'm an owner of
the 137 acres between Timberwood and TH 5 . I 'm also a residential buildinil
contractor and have been since 1975 and I 'm not going to spend a lot of
time talking about the marketability of that piece for residential building
contractors . I don 't think anybody would develop it for that . I 'm certaill
no builders would purchase any lots on it . You 'd be sticking your neck ou
too far and I don 't think I could really sell a house to anybody in this
room on that piece . I will just leave you with maybe one thing to think
about . I question on that piece , if you were to put residential in there ,
you could even pass the State 's guidelines for the noise ordinance when yo
put a 4 lane highway in there . That might just kill it right there . It
might be something to look into . Thank you . '
Conrad: Thanks Steve .
Larry VanDeVeire: Hello . My name is Larry VanDeVeire , 4980 Co . Rd . 10,
Chaska . I 'm the property owner of the property on , 13 acres on the corner
of TH 5 and Galpin Blvd . . I think you 've received my letter . I 'm a little
displeased by the change in land use . We purchased property in 1985 to I
build on . After spending some time out there , the property is not suited
for residential being on a corner . I lived in Chanhassen in 1965 . When we
purchased the property I guess I was thinking of Chanhassen in 1965 . The
road has considerable amount of traffic since then . We had an opportunity
to break the parcel out at the same time Timberwood was and at the same
time the other 2 1/2 acre parcels were broke out . Chose not to because it
wouldn 't be a good building site , or for residential anyway . Lundgren
Brothers had sent out a letter earlier this year just stating that they
were interested in land. I called them just yesterday or the day before
because I couldn 't see that property, anyone wanting it as residential use '
and called them to follow up on it . At first I wasn't concerned with the
letter I guess because I just thought they weren't interested in it . They
had sent a letter to everyone which was the case . They sent a letter to I
quite a few people . When I indicated where the property was , they said
that they would not be interested in it for residential use . We 've heard
from people from Timberwood . I can appreciate their concerns with
industrial property moving in around them or supposedly moving in around
them but at the same time everybody would like something green along TH 5 .
It could have been me on a hobby farm. I 'm glad it isn't right now because
I wouldn 't have wanted a 4 lane highway going in there on a hobby farm on II
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 31
TH 5 . Same thing with Mary Harrington where she was saying that the people
in Chicago , green houses and stuff like that . Everyone living in
' Timberwood right now wouldn 't change places for the people who would own a
house on those highways . Someone 's living there but someone 's paying the
cost . Someone 's hearing the noise . You know someone's paying the cost that
they 're not . As far as Mill 's Fleet Farm , I guess I don 't know where
' Mill 's Fleet Farm should go. I don't know if Chanhassen 's the right area
but myself , I have animals and I know that something like that is needed on
this southwest corner . I have to drive to Lakeville to get to one .
Something like that 's needed on this end of town . Like I say , I don 't know
if that 's the right place but I kmow we as residents do need it and
• I guess I feel that the property as originally planned , our property as
' being neighborhood commercial I thought was a good prospect for it . Eric
Rivkin had commented that he didn't like seeing bunker type businesses
going in and I guess I can appreciate that . I think the property would
allow for something like that . That it isn 't a flat lot . That you
' wouldn 't have just row after row of little small cubicles or anything like
that . Thank you .
' Martin Kuder : I 'm Martin Kuder . I live at 6831 Galpin Blvd . . I have
similar concerns to other residents that talked about special consideration
when it comes to assessments that might be levied . They might not be
levied to the large lot landowners but to others . I 'm very close to that
area and my sewer and water systems are all very new . About the same age
as some of their 's and I feel I could or should have the same special
considerations that they might and also I 'd like you to address what kind
' of assessments might be levied should this plan go through for the existing
Lake Ann Interceptor that 's already in .
IConrad: Gary , we 'll throw that back to you .
Warren: The existing Lake Ann Interceptor assessment value was $434 .00
roughly I think . It has not been levied yet . The City will probably be
' looking at levying that sometime next year .
Martin Kuder : How wide of an assessment area would that involve?
' Warren: That involves the service area for the Lake Ann Interceptor itself
which I don 't know the easiest way to describe it from the maps but it 's
' pretty much , maybe I can try to show it . As Mark had pointed out earlier ,
the Lake Ann Interceptor follows the green corridor here and for the most
part the boundary area of the service area for Lake Ann is within the area
that is shown in the MUSA line . . . .but the actual Lake Ann Interceptor . . .
Krauss: I think we can expand on the Lake Ann Interceptor for a moment .
That is a pipe that I think as you 're aware is in the ground and has been
' in the ground for several years . It's a pipe that was put in by the
Metropolitan Waste Control Commission . It 's a major metropolitan
interceptor . It 's there as a result of years of effort by the City to
provide for future growth of the community . It is not the local lateral
system that we would have to build to serve individual lots. It's a major
investment . The City anted up I think half a million dollars for our share
of that pipe . When assessments were conceived of , I guess it was back in
1986 there were public hearings that were held . Those property owners that
were affected were notified of it at that time and since then anybody who 's
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 32
bought property in that area has been informed of that and I believe f
typically has money escrowed or placed in escrow account to cover that .
The policies that we 're talking about in the plan for water and sewer deal
with new lines . I think you really have to make a break point there
between the new system and the Lake Ann system which is in the ground and
it's already been paid for .
Conrad: East of Galpin on TH 5. A comment was made not suitable for 1
residential . Can you respond to that Paul?
Krauss: A lot of people use the higtlest and best acronym to mean that it 11
should be something like a factory or a shopping center or whatever they
happen to feel highest and best is. In making the determination that that
should be residential , I think the Planning Commission took a lot into ,
account . They did look at the detriments , the detrimental affects or
impacts of being close to a highway . I think there 's a recognition that if
you had your druthers you might initially build someplace else but land I
tends to be developed over time and when there 's a wide variety of sites ,
yes , they 'll probably build someplace else . When the availability gets
tighter , I believe we see that as developing . There was an overriding ,
well one of the overriding goals of the planning effort was not to maximizi
dollar return . It was not to maximize industrial development . It was not
to do a lot of those things . It was to develop a plan that was in the best
interest of the community and there 's a lot of give and take in that
process . I think the Planning Commission spent , this is not an
exaggeration , approximately 9 months looking at what should be done around
Timberwood . I think there 's a general recognition that in some eyes that
the resulting plan is not what would be called the highest and best use but'
it 's a compromise . If you had your druthers, Timberwood might not be where
it is today . I mean Timberwood is something that had to be designed aroun
but the fact is that it is there . It 's a residential neighborhood and we
have people living there . We have to do something about that . We 're awar
of the fact that a plan was developed by a group of property owners on the
highway that showed alternate land uses in there . In fact in some of the II
earlier versions of the plan, the Planning Commission considered other use
in there . When all said and done however , all that information digested ,
this was the plan that was called out and I think , you know from a staff
viewpoint , there 's a comfort level with it recognizing limitations of that
site and again , this is a result of a lot of effort on the part of the
Planning Commission .
Conrad: Maybe another thing on TH 5 east of Galpin where we are , we were
looking for property close to transportation corridor where we could put
higher density . As you can see we've strung out some higher density units "
One , we 're required by law. Not by law but Metro Council very strongly
encourages us to do that to the point where, I don't know Paul if you 'd say
it's required but it 's pretty darn close to being required. Plus it 's also
based on some of our goals and policies. Goals that we set, to provide
mixed housing opportunity in Chanhassen and not to be a . . .exclusive and I
think that 's again one of the reasons we settled there . I think there were
some other options for that land but the higher density property fit the I
nature or the character of that land.
John Shardlow: Mr . Chairman , members of the Commission, my name is John
Shardlow . I 'm a planning consultant with Dalhgren, Shardlow and Uban. I 'rr'
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 33
one of the property owners of the Chaska Gateway Partnership in the
southeast quandrant of TH 5 and TH 41 . As you know , I was here through
part of the process as a spokesperson for the TH 5 development coalition
' which was a group of people consisting of owners of about 700 acres of land
and it was our firm that put together the plan that Paul referred to
previously . Needless to say there is considerably difference between the •
plan that 's here tonight and the plan that we proposed and so to the extent
that there is a difference , I acknowledge that. I want to point out a
couple of what I consider to be key comments that parallel some of the
comments that have been made regarding the feasibility of single family
' residential along TH 5. Just as a point of clarification for myself , when
we presented the plan and the packet of information , it included a noise
study prepared by BRW. That indicated that by the year 1990 , which is the
' year today , the vast majority of that site would be in violation of the
State Noise Standard for single family residential and by the year 2010 the
entire parcel all the back to the back lot lines of the Timberwood
subdivision would be in violation of the State Noise Standard. It was a
directive as I heard of the Planning Commission to staff to look at how
that area might be buffered and to come back with some indications about
what kind of berming and buffering could be there to protect single family
' residential . We 've inquired as to that work and have yet to see it . We 're
very interested in it . I 'm the City Planning consultant in the city of
Roseville and if you want to see what this looks like in the flesh, I would
direct you to a portion of TH 36 just east of Victoria Street on the south
side of TH 36 which has exactly the same size , exactly the same design
highway with exactly the same traffic today as this roadway is projected to
have in 10 years . So what you 're planning along TH 5 exists in Roseville
' today and as we go about our comprehensive planning process in the city of
Roseville , we are struggling with how to redevelop that area because of
concerns that neighbors in that area and property owners have regarding the
untenable noise that they are subjected to. I suggest to you that we have
acknowledged and would be willing to continue to acknowledge that
Timberwood exists and that there is a need and that it is appropriate
comprehensive planning principle to protect those people . I would suggest
' that forcing the area all the way up to TH 5 to go single family
residential is going too far in that regard . With respect to the collector
streets on the south side , I believe it 's correct to say that we were the
' ones that suggested the collector street on the south side and suggested
the concept of having a local system of collectors to provide local
circulation and not to put that traffic onto TH 5 . So to the extent that
' that recommendation has been carried through, I acknowledge it and I say
that I think that that's a good idea but I would clarify that when we
showed that service road, we showed it as a remote service road so that the
people who would have to dedicate the right-of-way would be able to develop
' both sides of the road and therefore to do it efficiently . Now not only
has the land use changed from a land use which would provide a higher
return to the landowner which would assist them in recouping their
' investment but it 's also now a single frontage service road. I 'd ask you
from a practical standpoint is the landowner going to be responsible for
dedicating the right-of-way for that roadway? And if so , what is the
feasibility of developing that property for single family residential and
' doing what you wouldn 't do out in a rural area which is single front the
road . There is also what is identified as a middle school search area on a
portion of that property . It 's one of the only search areas I 've ever seen
that is limited to a single parcel and I 'd ask you what the significance of
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 34
that is to a property owner who's going about the business of trying to
market their property , and I 'm not trying to make fun of the process . I
know that we , as part of our comprehensive planning processes have to look
at where schools should be located but I 'd ask you to think about that as
you carry through with the planning process about when that decision gets
made and what the implications of that designation may be for that property
owner . Another comment I offer just in practical issues . It 's nice and
it 's good to have the happy words in the plan about the goals and
objectives of buffering everybody and 100 foot wide buffer strips sound
great but who gets to dedicate them? What 's the practical aspect of 100
foot wide buffer areas in addition to setback areas? Who maintains that
land? Now it 's one thing to say that people have to have extensive
setbacks between industrial or office/industrial park property and single
family residential and that it be bermed and that it be landscaped and thall
it be maintained. I think that 's a reasonable thing to factor into the
planning and development process . But to simply paint a bunch of magic
marker green lines between all of the different designations of land use , 11
think can be a very impractical thing to actually carry through and
implement so I challenge you to do that . One final comment that I think is
extremely important as you proceed and move forward in this process has to .
the whole issue of a sanitary sewer feasibility. There has been some
investigation done in the area of sanitary sewer investigation . Talking
about feasibility . What it 's going to cost to extend it . How it 's going
to be extended . Alternatives for extending it and so forth . Those are
vitally important issues with respect to land use and needs to be
coordinated and needs to be factored in when you look at the feasibility of
future land use pattern . Thank you .
Conrad: Thanks John . Do you want to address any of those issues that John
brought up right now in terms of the school designation? I guess we can
talk about that later on . Paul , the dedicated right-of-way on that
property north of Timberwood. John brought that up . Single frontage . Ar
those policy issues? Are those issues that we deal with in the
comprehensive plan? ,
Krauss: I think they're issues that you deal with in the field when you
actually get a development proposal . We have proposed a number of
collectors , new collector streets . The alignment for those are not cast i
concrete . On a collector street you basically want to connect the two end
points and not introduce so many curves that it becomes a disincentive to
use it . So I 'd say there 's some flexibility in the design and to give
credit where credit is due, John's plan was the first one that showed a
collector street through there and we 've not been unwilling to accept good
ideas wherever they come from. One of the other suggestions that we got
from that was Mary Harrington spoke before and Mary 's suggestion was that
that be done as a frontage road. The reason why that made a lot of sense
to us was because of the way that collector , if it took the middle path
bisected a neighborhood. Basically you trapped a strip of land that could
have houses on it . Could have office , whatever , between a collector stree
and a 4 lane highway . It almost made it less optimal an area to develop .
By moving the road further to the north , you provided greater physical
separation from the 4 lane and you 've got that higher traffic street out oll
what hopefully will become a residential neighborhood in the future . It
also helped to free up that potential school site area . The original
alignment of that thing bisected the site that the school has told us woulc'
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 35
make a good location for a middle school . They need a 40 acre chunk of
ground to bring that about . Probably about 30 acres of which would be
permanent green space . One of the reasons why that school site is located
there , we did explore 3 sites with the school district , is that it really
' is a benefit to breaking up that commercial/industrial corridor effect that
the Planning Commission wanted to move away from . They wanted to be able
to bridge TH 5 with residential or residential with current uses and it was
' felt that a school that has 3/4 of the site being open space , permanently
green would be an ideal way of accomplishing that . And the road was also
swung wide as I said to avoid impacting that school site so there were a
number of reasons that went into that .
Conrad: More comments .
' Andrew Olson: I 'm Andrew Olson of 8290 West Lake Court and I have a
question concerning your other 1995 study area as far as Hwy . 17 .
According to your large book , it says proposed 4 lane highway by the year
2010 . Why are they doing work on that right now if it's not foreseen or
nothing to the south of us , it comes to a T right now. Why are we doing
this work at this time?
Conrad: What are you talking about , 212?
Andrew Olson: I 'm talking about Hwy 17 south of TH 5 to CR 18 .
' Krauss: There is a project going on on Hwy 17 north of Lyman Blvd . right
now that Carver County is involved with and that 's to prepare a road bed so
that that road can be widened in the future . The actual pavement is not , I
don 't even believe programmed at this point in time but they have an
opportunity to get the dirt and widened it at that point . Ultimately that
road will drop south to new 212 but nobody is doing any work on that
' section now nor is that programmed or planned in any way . That would
presumably be done at such time that the highway 's extended out past that
point .
Andrew Olson: Yeah, my question would be then if it 's going to 212 , are
the two tied together simultaneously? If I find out 212 would be going
through 6 years from now , will CR 17 be built at that time to tie in?
Krauss: CR 17 south of Lyman?
' Warren: Most likely, the current situation analagous to that would be the
TH 101 which we show and the City has officially mapped. We will not be
constructing that realigned portion of TH 101 down to TH 212 until TH 212
' is anticipated to be along with construction and that's the time when the
City would anticipate pushing forward with it's project . Similarly I know
the County would be planning on expanding that road segment at such time
that the 212 corridor is constructed to that intersection .
' Andrew Olson: And will it be 2 lane or 4 lane at that time? Any proposals
that you know of?
' Warren: Right now it 'd be 4 lane down to Lyman. From there south I would
expect it would be the same . This is a unique opportunity to save money
actually that the developer 's donating the fill . The County is moving it
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 36
and both parties are coming out basically saving a lot of money . There 's 11
about 80 ,000 yards of material that are being moved for the future roadway
which otherwise , if it were done at that time , would have to be paid
outright and imported so it 's just a unique window here in time that
they're taking advantage of .
Andrew Olson: Do you have a timeframe in mind when that might be
permanently paved then to 4 lanes?
Warren: Well I think we 're saying , the City has a project at 1992 . We aril
planning to upgrade the road section down to the creek area basically , or
there abouts . The County plan for taking it there further to the south . I
can 't speak for the County Engineer and the County Commissioners but I
they 're very much going to be watching traffic use patterns and see if
they , it probably would happen that they would expand it down to Lyman or
could expand it to Lyman prior to the 212 corridor but to go south of Lyman
to 212 I think definitely would wait until the 212 is constructed . '
Andrew Olson: Thank you .
Conrad: Who else? '
Tim Keane: Good evening members of the Planning Commission. My name is
Tim Keane with Larkin , Hoffman , Daley , and Lindgren, 7900 Xerxes,
Bloomington. I am here on behalf of Mill 's Fleet Farm , the owners of the
property in the northeast corner of trunk highways 41 and 5 . We have
participated throughout this process and expressed our intent and desire 1
seek guidance for the development of the property owned by Mill 's Fleet
Farm . We compliment the Planning Commission on their efforts to date but
we 're asking you to go a little bit further and not wait until 1995 to
study your study areas . Our principle concern with the designation is tha
it in effect is a 5 year moratorium on not only the use of the property bu
any potential planning or marketing of the property . By designating that
as a study area without any guide for the property owner as to it 's
potential use to a buyer as it's potential use, it's rendered virtually
unmarketable . So there 's some concern there . Secondly, I think that the
designation of the study area at this time and waiting 5 years until you
plan for the use of that area is going to bring the same pattern that we 'r�
dealing with in 1990 and that is, we move in a neighborhood of constituency
of opposition to anything happening and who knows where that will bring us
in a rational planning process. The area could be planned today . It does
not necessarily have to be within the designated urban service area but th
ultimate use of the property certainly could be planned and set forth on
the comprehensive plan . And that is our request . That you continue your I
fine planning efforts and extend them to the areas designated as the 1995
study area . Thank you very much .
Conrad: Thanks Tim. Additional comments . Appreciate you all sticking ,
with us . We 've lost a few .
Terry Forbord: Good evening ladies and gentlemen . My name is Terry I
Forbord . I 'm Vice President of Lundgren Bros , 935 East Wayzata Blvd . in
Wayzata . Can you hear me from here? Okay. I appreciate the opportunity
to speak before you this evening . Probably more than anything I appreciate"
your objectivity through this whole process and I concur entirely with Mr .
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 37
' Klingelhutz ' last statement that we're all very fortunate that you have
held these open meetings like you have . It doesn 't work like this in all
cities , as maybe some people in the audience aren't quite as familiar . The
process occurs but not as openly as this one has so we appreciate it .
Recently we presented to the City a request for inclusion of approximately
90 gross acres of land into the urban service area north of TH 5 . There is
' approximately 70 acres of net developable land. The property is on the
northern part of the 1995 study area north of TH 5 and I will show you . It
represents approximately 57 acres right here and it represents
approximately 30 acres of this 100 acre parcel . The reason that , I 'll go
' back . The northern property is owned by Mr . and Mrs . Dwane and Marlene
Johnson . There 's a letter in the packet of information that I delivered to
you from them requesting that their property be included. The 30 acre
' parcel is owned by Mr . Dolejsi and there 's also a letter I believe as
Exhibit C in your packet . The reason Mr . Dolejsi 's property was included in
this is because of the physical constraints that exist on the property
pertaining to wetlands and slopes and vegetation . That it really fits well
' and dovetails well with the development of the Dolejsi property . You would
not be able to cross that wetland or it 's highly unlikely you would be able
to cross that wetland with a roadway . So what we are giving you this
' evening basically is a request only for inclusion of that property into the
urban service area . I 've addressed a number of issues in the proposal to
you of why we think this is a good idea and rather than pontificate and go
' on and on stating what those reasons are , I will answer questions if you
have any and I will go on if you would like me to . If you have any
questions .
Conrad: Anybody with questions of Terry right now?
Terry Forbord: Okay , thank you very much . I think I did forget to state
' that we have been developing land in the city of Chanhassen for
approximately 10 years now and primarily in the Near Mountain area which is
in the northeast corner of Chanhassen . That neighborhood community is
' close to being built out and we have been working with many of the local
landowners quite well in trying to assemble a larger tract of land to
replace Near Mountain so we would sincerely appreciate your objectivity in
the review of our proposal . Thank you .
Conrad: More comments? Anything?
' Eric Rivkin: Is it my turn for a second?
Conrad: Sure .
Eric Rivkin: Just a couple things. I think you could go easy on the
developers by not requiring , about this gentleman who sat back here . Very
tall guy . Came in late . I don't know who he was but he said that buffers
' would be hard to maintain. They wouldn't need to be required to be
maintained at all . Plantings of course have to be live but they don't have
to require a mowable grass for instance and if the thrust of the comp plan
is to have natural looking things, than why have it mowed? It 's also
better for the environment not to mow it because then you don't have the
non-point source pollution from fertilizers and runoff and the like . You
also can be , with creative zoning you could have the same number of units
on less available land . I think he was eluding to the fact that the
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 38
buffers would take away too much potential land for development . You know"
reducing the return on investment or something but I don 't think that
necessarily has to be the case . Leaving a buffer area worth something
aesthetically and environmentally to the community on both sides of the
buffer I think is where I 'd like to see things headed. When Joe Morin
brought out the issue that he deserves the same special considerations on
the special assessments and the sewer hook-up, he was not referring to I
moving the MUSA back at all . We don 't mind where the MUSA is , it 's just
that we 'd like the same protection . He wants the same protection using the
same criteria that was used to determine those special considerations in
the first place . Since he and both of his neighbors on either side of him'
qualify for that because same qualifications apply to them , that they feel
they have equal right to those same considerations . To give you an
example . One of the criteria was that the area , as Paul mentioned , should'
have to be sellable to the Met Council may not be peppered with a lot of
large lot . You know smaller large lots peppered all over the place . Well ,
if it were contiguous , which in this case it possibly is because their
properties are just to the east of Lake Lucy Highlands . There 's propertiell
to the south . Mr . Gutmiller and Mezzenga and possibly the gentleman
sitting back here who got up and spoke earlier , are contiguous with
Lake Lucy Highlands . The Rings and the Mancino's I know . They all signed"
a petition and as far as I know , they have not changed their minds . So
with this large lot designated properties, we 're contiguous . Then it would
not have the detriment of having the peppered look . The other thing is
about Fleet Farm . I personally don't like to see a Fleet Farm here . I 've'
seen the one up in Brooklyn Park or up near Anoka , wherever it is and I
don't like the idea of possibly having a 24 hour business open on TH 5 in
prime residential area with truck upon truck . Additing to the truck
traffic . The noise . The lights of the parking lot shining up all the
time . I think it would be an eye sore . I know the revenue might of course
be tempting but I just don't think that it can be, unless there 'd be such II
severe restrictions on it that might just completely turn them off to beinil
here . That 's my own personal opinion that maybe the land could be
considered as a community center . Perhaps purchased by the YMCA . This is '
a good location for them . The nearest one's at Ridgedale and Edina and
maybe consider approaching them to find out if they'd be willing to
purchase the land for that. A couple of residents in Timberwood that I
talked to like that idea and I don't think the City has to give up anythini
for that . I 'm not sure whether they are exempt from paying taxes or not
but they certainly charge enough for membership there , I assume they make
enough money to pay the taxes so that 's my feeling about that . Thank you . '
Conrad: Thanks Eric . Other comments? Any more? Is these a motion to
close the public hearings?
Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted
in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Conrad: The public hearing is closed. I thank you for all your comments . II
We 're not done though but if you 'd like to leave , that 's okay . We 're going
to discuss some of the comments so you 're welcome to leave and we
appreciate your comments . You 're welcome to stay . Our role right now is
to decide whether we can send the plan to the City Council . Whether we
want to hold it open for more discussion . So again , if you leave I thank
you for attending . We're going to continue on here and proceed with some II
I
Planning Commission Meeting
11 October 24 , 1990 - Page 39
comments. I think generally, I 'm not sure what a good format here amongst
us commissioners is but I wouldn 't mind, instead of going round robin and
kind of getting confused , if we could deal with the issues that were
brought up that I 'd like to have us all react to one issue at a time versus
one person's comments . Then I 'm going to come back and if there 's other
stuff that you want to deal with in terms of what was not brought up in the
public hearing, what you saw in the plan, I think then there 's a time for
that too . And I 'm going to go down sequentially . These are my priorities
and not necessarily, these are the things that I heard. Not necessarily
what you heard so feel free to jump in . The first issue with the
' development at the intersection of 212 and 101 . In terms of the mixed use
zoning . Is there anybody concerned with the comment from Gary Lyman that
that was not appropriate , especially since it 's fronting up his
residential?
Emmings: Gene Quinn .
' Conrad: That 's right .
Emmings: Somebody else was calling him Lyman.
Conrad: Yeah , that 's what it is . I 'm sorry . Any comments bn that? Would
anybody like to revisit the issue? Are we comfortable with the mixed use
zoning?
Batzli : As I recall there 's a buffer inbetween there?
Erhart: You mean the 100 foot buffer?
Batzli : Yeah . I can 't tell by this map.
Krauss: We did add a 100 foot buffer between the gentleman 's property line
and this site , yes .
Batzli : You know issue was raised and maybe now isn't a good time to talk
about it but , from who 's property does that eventually come?
' Krauss: It comes off the developer 's property as we envision it . Now in
talking to the City Attorney who tells us we have to modify our zoning
ordinance to back up the comprehensive plan and we anticipate bringing to
you a revised zoning ordinance amendment to deal with that and parking lot
' setbacks in general in the next month or two.
Conrad: It would come off the owner of the mixed use .
Krauss: The more intensive use, yeah.
' Emmings: I have a question on that . On that buffer yard , is 100 feet
written in stone or are we sensitive to the site?
Krauss: We haven 't drafted the ordinance yet . All we have to go on right
' now is the policy direction which says 100 feet in interior property lines ,
50 feet along roads because the road itself provides some distance .
I
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 40
Emmings: Well , shouldn't there be some flexibility there depending on the f
site? You might want a little more , you might want a lot less . Whatever .
Krauss: If you 're saving a dense stand of oak trees for example , you may II
be able to do it in 50 feet, yes . We could write something like that into
the ordinance .
Emmings: Alright . '
Conrad: What 'd you just say?
Emmings: I guess the point is, as far as the issue you brought up and how
I feel about it is, we have looked at it . We're going to have to do some
sensitive planning there when we put that in but I for one wouldn't want til
go back and redo that . I think the plan is good the way it is .
Erhart: My concern is that when we zone something commercial , essentially
we 're getting just about at the highest value use that you can do . If we
come back later on and we look at that area and later on we want to put in
a buffer which consists of medium density or high density , all of a sudden
we 're going to be rebuffed by the landowner who now says well you 're down
zoning my property . I guess I really , if that line of thinking is correct
so far , if that 's the case then , maybe we ought to be real careful to zone
something commercial . I
Emmings: We 're not zoning .
Erhart: What are we doing? '
Conrad: At this point in time, it's a concept right now and we can change
When zoning , if we do decide to change that zoning when there was an
application to do such , we can move boundaries. We can do whatever we wan
to so that .
Erhart: I don't want to get into a situation where we are essentially 1
committing to a landowner the highest value per square foot which is
commercial/industrial here .
Conrad: Yet on the other hand, if you didn't communicate to new residents
that that's what your intention really is , you would not be doing them any
favors . 1
Erhart: I understand that but I just want to make sure that it's clear
that we can go back later and put some buffer , even if it includes
apartment buildings, without getting in a situation where now we've locked 1
in and oh, Jim Curry commercial . As much as I like Jim, I mean it 's
important that we have flexibility to even if we decide later on that 100 I
foot isn 't going to be adequate. That it makes more sense to put in some
apartments , that we haven't committed to the landowner a commercial value.
That 's my concern .
Krauss: Mr . Chairman, we shouldn't forget that buffer yards and screening I
and landscaping as a concept is not a new one in Chanhassen . It 's embodied
in our site plan review and we do that typically with every project we
review . What the buffer yard concept does is it expands upon the existing 1
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 41
1 controls that we have but I think that the current dialogue that we have on
buffering and screening is certainly going to remain with the emphasize
that it 's at to date and be expanded upon so we would have the opportunity
and the flexibility . It's already in the ordinance to buffer unique
situations as we need to .
Conrad: Any other comments on this particular parcel? Anything? Mary ,
what was your comment?
Mary Harrington: . . .right now it 's like 50 feet?
Conrad: We have a buffer yard concept called , that in this particular case
would separate the higher density from the residential .
(Mary Harrington made a statement that could not be heard on the tape . )
Conrad: We 're saying there 's an automatic buffer yard that we are
requiring between the mixed use commercial . Mixed use development and .
Mary Harrington: More than 50 feet?
Krauss: It 's an additional requirement .
Mary Harrington: You 're just asking for space?
' Krauss: No , the ordinance will require that they do something in that
space . That they do berming . That they do landscaping . We 'll preserve
something .
Mary Harrington: That sounds good .
' Conrad: Okay . We 're going to leave that issue unchanged. There was a
concern with areas besides Lake Lucy Highlands in terms of excluding them
from the necessity to hook up to a sewer and special assessments . We
' dialogued about that a couple of times . A couple different individuals
tonight . Is there a sensitivity to revisit that issue?
' Wildermuth: I think that page 23 has to definitely be revisited. I can
understand how we can exclude the obligation to hook up to a sewer if you
have a viable septic system but I don't see how in the comprehensive plan
' we can be talking about waiving any assessments for a certain select class
or group of people . I think that's a real mistake to write something like
that in the comprehensive plan.
Emmings: I have a question. If right now we're talking about these
special considerations for these large lot owners in this area designated
on the map as large lot but are we only talking about special
' considerations for them or for any lot that would meet the same criteria?
Krauss: Frankly , we 're only talking about those special considerations for
those subdivision that were platted prior to 1987 or under the old
' ordinance that represent concentrations of developed lots that have no more
development potential . That conceiveably because of their concentrated
location we can skirt , probably at some extra expense but we can skirt them
with utility projects that are designed to serve other lots . I can 't
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Planning Commission Meeting I
October 24 , 1990 - Page 42
emphasize too strongly that we don't have that flexibility when we pick ancll
choose lots up and down the street frontage . It simply doesn 't work . What
we can do is try to develop a sensitivity in our policies to how to deal
with these intervening property owners at such time until they decide that '
they want to also take a benefit from the utility but that's another-
question . That 's not writing a whole different status for that. II
Ahrens: Who picks up the extra expense on that?
Warren: If a project were actually undertaken , a public improvement
project , the City would be faced with a decision as to do you absolve thatll
particular parcel from any assessments and thereby the cost would be either
covered by the city 's general fund or general revenues so the city at largil
would pay or the individual benefitting property owners who are assessed
would proportionally pick up the difference . Or the actual assessment is
deferred until such time as the property is ultimately connected into the
system which occurs as a negative or a bad debt against the city . I think '
that , if I could offer my two cents on it , that the policy. The city
ordinance currently existing on the books does address a lot of the other
instances where you have isolated cases throughout the City where they hay
II
a system that fails . We don't have sewer that fronts the property or
within a 150 feet of the property. They obviously are not required to hook
in at that time . I think a lot of the individual cases that may be we 're I
concerned about that , this concern that the City's going to run a public
improvement project out to the intersection of CR 18 and Galpin just to
pick up one isolated failing system, I mean that 's just impractical . The
City would never do that .
I
Wildermuth: Well it sounds like the issue of utility assessments has
pretty much done on an ad hoc basis depending on the issue at hand so I
I
don't see any reason to put those statements on page 23 regarding
assessments in the comprehensive plan.
Warren: You would not be able to commit future City Councils on assessment'
policy on specific projects . I think the intent is written earlier in the
report here that Paul has here is very close , as strong as you can get
about addressing the problem . Regardless of what is in this document , not I
to minimize it 's importance, the City Council when it sets assessment
policy, sets assessment policy and uses this as a guide but will decide at
the time of the specifics of the project how to assess it.
I
Wildermuth: So you 're saying it really doesn't matter whether it 's in here
or not?
Warren: Well I think it 's important in fairness to everybody here that I
there is a guide here and an intention that I think the Council , like they
do on any other assessment project, takes into strong consideration so it II
definitely will have some weight . But you cannot tie the hands of a
future City Council to an assessment policy in this document . Each
instance is so specific that the assessment policy has to be flexible .
I
Wildermuth: Well , I think for that very reason I would be in favor of
taking the assessment verbage out of the plan.
. I
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Planning Commission Meeting
11 October 24 , 1990 - Page 43
1 Conrad: Philosophically do you agree with it? Do you want to extend it to
other properties contiguous or not contiguous to this? Give them the same
priviledges basically that we are giving, whether it 's in here or not ,
' there 's got to be a vehicle to communicate that to the City Council .
Wildermuth: I think you could argue that point either way. Certainly the
same availability for assessment waiver ought to be extended to other
' people in other areas that find themselves in the same position or
situation . Maybe not as large an area as Lake Lucy Highlands but maybe on
some individual basis . On the other hand, you could argue that why are we
' even addressing something like waiving assessments here when it 's the
problem of the City Council . Public sewer and water are part of the common
good . If we 're going to play games with assessments , I think we 're going
to end up in a lot of trouble .
Conrad: Joan , did you have any comments on this?
Ahrens: I guess I have a problem with the assessments too and you know,
philosophically I would like to give everybody the same right to be
excepted on a large lot if they want to be excepted. I think that in
practical terms it seems impossible to do that . I don 't know if we should
' be addressing the assessments either in this part of the comprehensive
plan . It doesn 't make much sense to me . I think that if there 's a
contiguous group of parcels along Lake Lucy Road, I don 't know if there is ,
they should be included too . That is part of a whole area in there that
seems to have the same desire to be excluded from that .
' Conrad: There is rationale for us to deal with that I think , even though
we 're not dealing totally with economic issues , in terms of assessments .
' Wildermuth: But what about Hesse Farm?
Conrad: But what we do in terms of land use obviously impacts folks and
how we . You know if we didn 't feel comfortable providing a special
11 compensation or regulations for these people , we may not have zoned it the
way we did . Therefore our zoning inclusion in the MUSA , exclusion could
have changed if we did not grant these particular exclusions or exceptions
to the general rule .
Ahrens: I guess because we don't know how we 're going to pick up the extra
expense on the assessments . I mean are we excluding some people only to put
' additional assessments on other Chanhassen residents because they're not
lucky enough to be included in that excluded. area?
' Conrad: Well , Chanhassen got into this problem itself . The 2 1/2 acres ,
that 's Chanhassen problem .
Ahrens: But it may not be all of . . .
1 Conrad: . .and we went along with it . The Planning Commission never went
along with it to my recollection . I always say that but we did grant that
' authority or we did grant that ability to put 2 1/2 acre lots in and those
people went in and put in sewer and water and I think what you're saying or
what we can say is hey , so what . You have to live by the letter of the law
which says you hook up . That 's what we could do and in this case we 're
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 44
saying hey, that doesn't make sense but you 're right . Some other property
owners will have to pay for that exclusion . '
Ahrens: If that 's the route the City Council takes .
Conrad: Right . I think City Council has a financial , this is a financial "
issue for them . I think it's a question of what signal we want to send to
the City Council . Do we agree that this should be done but I think they
really have a vested interest economically in this and they're going to I
look at it real closely . I guess the question that I bring up tonight is
in our direction to them, do we want to say grant this permission or grant
this opportunity to others in like situations? Paul Krauss would say them
aren't any like situations .
Ahrens: Well , several property owners would disagree with that .
Conrad: They would disagree . Maybe I put words in Paul 's mouth. Did
I put words in your mouth?
Krauss: I do disagree . I think that Lake Lucy Highlands and Timberwood '
and Sunridge Court are clearly different animals from the standpoint that
they are for all intensive purposes fully developed. They have their
roads . They 've on site water . They have on site sewer . They 're done .
The houses are sitting on 2 1/2 acre lots . They're often sitting in the
middle . It 's almost out of the realm of possibility that there's further
development potential on those lots . Not inconceiveable but it 's almost I
out of the realm of possibility . Anyplace else you're reduced to a
property owner telling you , I am telling you today that I don't want to
develop my property and therefore I want to be treated differently even I
though my property has development potential and we 've just seen too many
cases where when , nobody wants to call anybody a buyer . Nobody wants to
make anybody do anything but people get divorced. People get old . People
get transferred . Any myriad of reasons cause people to change their mind . '
Mr . Rivkin's referring to lots along Lake Lucy Road to the east of
Lake Lucy Highlands. There 's about 6 properties in there and I have not
talked to all the property owners individually. I 've talked to several of '
the groups but even the groups of people that have talked to me have told
me that there 's property owners bracketing their lots that want to develop. ,
I think you saw that same situation when Mr . Rivkin presented to you a I
petition with some very blanket statements that these people did not want
to develop and people stood up in the audience and said no, that 's not
true . I would like to have the opportunity to do that. And I also can't
stress too strongly that once you get this checkerboard pattern in place , I
we've already got a bad enough checkerboard pattern trying to get around
the 2 1/2 acre subdivisions . If you exasperate that , there's going to be a
very great difficulty in providing in a cost effective and reasonable
manner street , sewer and water . We simply will not be able to do that .
Emmings: Well , I 'd just like to add to that. I think that the
disctinction that Paul makes for these individual neighborhoods is a
reasonable one and especially in light of the background and history that
at the time that we did those we also completely rewrote the septic system
requirements in the city and they really I think, at least I was convinced '
at the time that septic systems in a lot of ways because they don 't add
load to other public facilities. The interceptors and the plants where all
11
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 45
1 the sewage has to be treated , treating it on site , there 's some real
distinct advantages to that . The environment . If they 're designed right
and maintained right and I think we put the thing in place that will make
them self sufficient so I think they are kind of a special case .
Ahrens: Those are big if 's.
Emmings: If they 're installed and maintained, sure . That's right . That 's
always .
' Erhart: I need help here . I guess I don't quite understand the problem.
Why would we , what is the circumstances under which somebody would be
forced to hook onto the sewer? Is it when the neighbor puts sewer in or
' someone beyond the sewer wants to develop and then you have to run sewer
next to his property and then you 're going to assess him for a high
assessment or what? How does that work?
' Warren: Well there 's two things I guess I tried to elude to earlier and
that is , it is difficult to imagine that the City would just outright go
and try to install a major interceptor project to intercept a couple of
' failing systems . You don 't do that .
Erhart: No , I 'm not talking about that . Say some fellow in Lot 2 has 10
acres up there and he wants to subdivide into 20 lots . How does that
affect Lot B which might be between Lot 1 and the existing line?
Warren: Well , if we have to obviously run sewer up to intercept your 20
acres and if there is a development in the middle that is not looking to
develop , then that expense for that link of the sewer which you can't get
by without , needs to be paid for somehow. Therefore we do, there are
' examples that maybe a watermain example would be a little bit better where
the Chan Hills subdivision did not have water service available to it until
the city went ahead and constructed the Chan Hills trunk watermain which
extended watermain down Powers Blvd. and then cross country into the
' subdivision . Now in that case , the city assessed hook up charge on an area
basis to the area that we had shown would ultimately take service from this
trunk main . Very similar to the Lake Ann Interceptor . So there is a
' potential for an area assessment for major interceptors which is quite
common to assess that benefit .
Erhart: Okay , and that 's the real concern that people here tonight have .
' Not the guy that 's got the failing septic system but the guy who 's going to
come in with a lot in the middle of this group that wants to subdivide .
' Krauss: That's true but it's not an open and shut case . I mean the fact
that somebody wants to develop and they're removed from the line and the
intervening property owner 's don 't , you know City Council deals with these
1 things in a political forum. There's public hearings . If you have 9
property owners that don 't want to develop , don 't want to pay for their
utilities and the one at the end of the line does, he's going to have a
darn tough time convincing the City Council that it 's a public improvement
' that needs to be born by everybody . Council 's more than likely to say
developer if you want it , you can pay for it . Dead head the` line and we 'll
pick up charges for these people. . .
1
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 46
Erhart: So if it 's a reasonable thing that you can deal with at the time,
,
then I don 't understand why we can't just change this paragraph and
eliminate the priviledge given to Lake Lucy Highlands and Timberwood and
just make it more general . Just say for those areas with large lots , it
the policy of the city , or areas with large lots . Large lots with septic
systems , it is the policy of the City that these subdivisions or whatever . "
Maybe that's not the correct word but these areas will not be required to
hook into the City utilities . Period then . Just drop it there because I
have a problem isolating those two subdivisions when there 's not in my min
that much difference than they are with Eric Rivkin's group .
Conrad: But there is .
Erhart: Well what is it?
Conrad: I think as Paul said, those areas are pretty much in. They 're in"
place . They 've been developed .
Erhart: Well so have these other lots .
Emmings: No . They can be developed where these can 't . These people once ,
inside the MUSA could go down to 15 ,000 square foot lots but that 's not
going to happen here . That 's not going to happen in these completed large
lot subdivisions .
Erhart: Why can 't it happen there?
Emmings: Well , theoretically it can except they haven't build their house
planning for that so they put them in the middle of the property or
whatever . '
Wildermuth: What happens if the house burns down?
Erhart: If a guy has 2 1/2 acres right in the middle there with 3 acres . I
Emmings: It 's possible . It 's just .
Krauss: You would have to change the comprehensive plan as well . The
reason we came up with this specific designation for that is because
they 're designated as a completely different animal . It's designated as '
large lots only. If they wanted to come in with 15,000 square foot lots,
they would have to rezone the property. They would have to change the
comprehensive plan. They would have to convince their neighbors that
there 's a benefit to running utilities down streets that weren't
anticipated to have these things which all sum total makes it a virtual
impossibility that those are going to subdivide .
Ahrens: Maybe it 's the length of the table here but we were talking
earlier about assessments . The assessment language and not requiring
people to hook up to sewer and whether or not it was appropriate for us toll
include the language regarding excluding these people from utility
assessments . I mean in the comprehensive plan, weren't we discLssing that
earlier?
Batzli : We were at this end.
•
11
11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 47
1
Ahrens: We were at this end. Yeah, right . Maybe there 's a link that
divides down the middle here .
Warren: The assessment procedures can have such significant impacts on the
city financially and there is such a rigorous assessment process
' established in the State Statutes to be followed on every assessment
project , that to try to muddy the waters with a policy discussion here on
assessments I really think is just going to cause more problems when the
' actual assessment process for any public improvement project follows a
public hearing process. Has to stand the test of showing benefit . On and
on and on . To talk about who connects and who doesn't and who 's required
' and who isn 't , I think they can be two separate issues but I think as Paul
is saying , you 've got some unique situations with the Lake Lucy Highlands
and such but you start handcuffing the City's abilities to service good
properties if you get too specific as well as who you 're going to kick out
of the connection area .
Ahrens: So Gary , are you saying that the assessment language should be
' taken out of this section?
Warren: I guess from me perspective the assessment language isn't totally
appropriate to be in .
11 Ahrens: I agree .
' Wildermuth : Right .
Erhart : I agree with that .
' Emmings: So would you go along with the suggestion where we just make a
more general statement that the large lot , something about large lot
residential subdivisions with septic systems in place what? What would you
say?
Erhart: Just the policy is that they are not forced to , the subdivision
' will not be required to hook into city utilities . Period . Drop the
reference to utilities .
Ahrens: I absolutely agree .
Erhart: Just make it more general .
Ahrens: And drop all this other .
Erhart: Drop the reference to utility.
' Krauss: I think you should refer back to the policy statement on page 14
of the goals and policies because I think that would more accurately
emphasize what we were trying to get across . It 's the bold faced one with
the goal to recognize the unique circumstance of the lots . It describes
the policy direction that we think is consistent and one that we can work
around .
' Warren: Second paragraph .
Planning Commission Meeting
II
October 24 , 1990 - Page 48
II
Ahrens: Page 14 of the land use?
Batzli : No , the first section . II
Conrad: Paul , are you comfortable with generalizing this exclusion?
Krauss: No sir . Once we are reduced to developing systems based upon thII
current whim or direction of a property owner that can change on a moment 's
notice, we can't provide those streets and utilities effectively. I
Conrad: I 'm not comfortable at all with broadening the definition . I
don 't care if it's in the language in the land use . In the comprehensive
plan. I don 't care but I 'm not comfortable at all extending that
priviledge beyond the areas that were identified for the particular reason
that Paul said . I think that would just be a major mistake . But we 've go
to check .
Batzli : Philosophically from the standpoint that if you have a septic
system and it 's not failing , I mean their statement that you don 't have toll
hook into it , I think they eliminated the part about the assessments .
What 's wrong with a philosophical statement that if you have a septic
system that 's working properly , why do they have to hook up? I understood!'
that was his amendment .
Conrad: I 'm not concerned with the hooking up as long as we have a good
method of monitoring to tell you the truth and what we 're doing is 11 broadening the ability to keep that septic system here or to put them in .
As long as we have the control to monitor that , that 's fine but I think the
assessments , it 's not the hook-up as much as it is the other assessments II
that are in the street that I just think would be very prohibitive for
Chanhassen.
Batzli : If people weren 't .
II
Conrad: If people weren't assessed for them . •
Ahrens: Could we just change the second sentence on page 23 to read , it di
the City's position that these subdivisions, let's say we're just talking
about Lake Lucy Highlands and Timberwood , will not be required to hook int
city utilities period.. Leave out , nor pay local utility assessments until
such time as utility extensions are required to serve them. That 's the
language I have a problem with. Any takers?
Wildermuth: Yeah, I support that . II
Conrad: Did you agree with her Jim? I
Wildermuth: Yes .
Conrad: Joan , would you read it again? Are you on page 23 or page 22?
II
Ahrens: Right . It is the City's position that these subdivisions will not
be required to hook into city utilities period and that we remove the land ,
that reads , nor pay local utility assessments until such time as utility
extensions are required to serve them . I don't feel comfortable excluding
II
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 49
them from utility assessments if we don't know who's going to pick up the
bill for that later on .
Batzli : So you 'd leave it for the City Council to decide through their
normal process at that time whether they 're assessed? •
' Ahrens: Right.
Conrad: Okay , Jim are you comfortable with that?
' Wildermuth: Right .
Conrad: Brian? You're basically not sending any signal . You're sending
no signal to the City Council although they 're going to , they're obviously
going to revisit this issue whenever they get it . But you 're not giving
them a direction . Okay . Brian?
' Batzli : I have a problem with it because I understand the issue of this 2
1/2 acre lot that Chanhassen is stuck with and we do have these two
' concentrations so upon my initial reading I thought it made a lot of sense
but when you start visiting specific situations of extending or skirting a
trunk line past the property and then to say that they don't have to pay
for it at that time and to put a burden on the rest of the community , is
that fair as well? At this point I would rather wait until the Council has
to wrestle with the problem at that time . It 's kind of like passing the
buck though. What I really like is if we could come to some sort of
decision right now but I don't know that we can . So I would actually, if I
had my druthers , I would leave it in but I don't know that that's fair to
the remaining residents upstream , downstream or what have you .
' Conrad: You know that one issue , and it 's hard to, we 're talking
intangible stuff here and a concern that I always have is forcing people to
move out because utilities come in . I 've seen that in certain cases . Not
a whole lot but I 've seen that in certain cases . When there are
assessments that go in, are we talking really huge assessments that
obviously are going to force somebody to sell?
' Warren: Typically I guess it all depends on the income levels of the
individuals we 're dealing with and they 're usually are like senior citizen
type considerations that can be given in the assessment policies but the
' assessments , I mean you 're talking in the $2,000 .00 to $5,000.00 range
typically for residential type say sanitary sewer assessment .
' Conrad: Let 's say there's 500 feet on the property. 500 feet frontage .
How would that owner be assessed for 500 feet? Per unit that's potentially
to go in?
Warren: Typically we assess sanitary sewer on a per unit basis . That 's
correct . Similar with watermain .
' Conrad: So if it 's in the street. If a watermain's in the street , or the
sewer and water 's in there , then the city policy and it 's going by to
service . I 'm going to take a situation where let 's say , and Tim brought it
' up . Let 's say 4 property owners wanted to develop and 1,didn 't . It 's
still 4 to 1 . They might get this done . So one we 've got the one that
11
Planning Commission Meeting '
October 24 , 1990 - Page 50
didn 't want to develop and they own 10 acres or 15 acres and that sewer
goes by on their property frontage . What 's going to happen to them?
Warren: Well the assessment policy can be decided by the Council to say I
that that particular parcel would be deferred . The assessment would be
deferred. That 's not the preference. Financial advisors would say that 's I
a bad debt against the city's records.
Conrad: In your experience Gary, would that happen? In your experience
have you seen that happen? '
Warren: Analogy would be on a small scale is the Harvey/O'Brien property
on Lake Lucy Road where the Council chose to use the connection policy in
that Mr . Harvey 's system was failing but Mr . O'Brien's was fine . Mr . Harvey,
is requiring to hook up to the sanitary sewer . It always happens, he 's the
guy in the upstream end . The guy in the downstream's system is good so
even though we went past Mr . O 'Brien 's property, he was not required to pay'
the connection fee at this time until he either subdivides or his system
fails . Now that 's a two property issue but you know , so there was an
example where that was done . More likely if there are property owners
looking to subdivide and develop , the assessment policy or the Council
would most likely look to those property owners to bear a large percentage
of the cost of the person who maybe doesn 't want to assess . That 's where
the developers and the value of property comes into play to see if they ca
that extra expense . We 're going to be dealing with this . You 've
already looked at it with the Klingelhutz ' property where watermain , in
order to serve that is going to have to be extended from the TH 101 area ull
in Chan Hills most likely and we 're going to have to go through the TH 212
corridor area and then past , we called him Mr . Lyman . That 's not correct ,
but it 's past his property and there 's a case where we 'll be looking at the"
policy as far as who should be paying and what the policies are . The
feasibility study , the first step in any of these assessment projects , the
feasibility study looks so specifically at those and establishing
guidelines as far as the policies are concerned, it is a very complex thin
and can be and those exceptions , you need to have that specific informatio
to really make sense of it .
Conrad: But you 're saying there can be sensitivity on the City Council 's
part to not force .
Warren: That 's correct and I think there is and I think that I am, quite
honestly I 'm scared of any kind of blanket statement where you say that you
will not make anybody connect . I don't think that 's realistic .
Conrad: Okay . We beat this issue a little bit . Now Joan, you 're
comfortable taking out the specific assessment language in the comprhensive
plan right now? I
Ahrens: Yes .
Conrad: Still relating it back to the two developments . Two or three?
Krauss: Two .
11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 51
1 Conrad: Three developments that are in and basically built out . The
option is to , there 's some other options also and that's to apply it beyond
those three .
' Wildermuth: Well it looks like the City does that anyway on a selective
basis using the State guidelines .
' Conrad: It can, yeah.
Wildermuth: Based on what Gary says , I guess it becomes more of a moot
point to leave it in or take it out . Whatever we want to do .
Conrad: Okay. How many would like to modify that paragraph with Joan 's
' motion or wording change or deletion? Jim? Brian?
Batzli : I like the policy in our early section but then when it 's fine
tuned in this section , for some reason I 'don 't but I would vote to leave it
11 as it is .
Conrad: Leave the paragraph as is?
Batzli : As it is .
1 Conrad: Me too .
Emmings: I guess I 've been convinced that the assessment action is one
that 's probably more appropriate with the City Council and out of the
' planning realm and into the fiscal realm and ought to be considered there
rather than here . So I guess I 'd go along with the amendment .
' Conrad: Okay , did you go along with the amendment Jim? Did you say yes?
Wildermuth: Yes .
Erhart: I ''m with Joan.
Ahrens: The table 's not too long after all .
Conrad: Okay . Paul , we 're deleting.
Krauss: Is it pulling out that line or the whole?
I Con rad: Just the assessment line . The Lakevi ew Hi lls and the p ar k issue ,
' anybody have some comments on what Craig Mertz said about Lakeview Hills
and the park? I don't know that there 's anything that we need to react to
on that one .
' Wildermuth: The park between Rice Marsh and Lake Riley?
Conrad: Yeah .
' Ahrens: No comment .
Conrad: Let 's talk about Timberwood and the area to the north. We heard
11 the owners . We heard some of the residents talk about Timberwood and what
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 52
they'd like an d I think we 've done a fair amount of buffering around them .
The owners of the land to the north obviously want industrial . Bringing u
several points all of which are valid in their own right . Any movement to
change what we see there?
Ahrens: You know I , who's the property owner that talked about the
northeast parcel? Northeast of Timberwood wasn 't it?
Batzli : There was one that talked about that .
Ahrens: Someone talked about the area northeast of Timberwood . That big 111
parcel .
Krauss: Mr . Dirlum here is one .
Dennis Dirlum: North and east . I
Ahrens: North and east , okay . I guess I never quite understood why we
moved that frontage road so far north anyway . I think I was opposed to
that from the very beginning . I thought that the frontage road should run '
closer to Timberwood and if it did , it would provide a corner on that in
the very northeast parcel to be developed into industrial/office which I
think is much more appropriate than residential . I mean I never liked that'
from the beginning . It wasn't something that I went along with. I think
that we 're creating a parcel of land here that 's undevelopable for a whole
lot of reasons . I would like to see that re-evaluated by the commission .
If a school does not go in there , we 've created a situation that I think
that we , you know we don 't want to live with. I don't think it 's
appropriate at all for single family housing with a four lane highway .
Conrad: What would you do for buffering?
Ahrens: I think there is , I mean first of all , you mean to the north of I
Timberwood?
Conrad: Yeah .
Ahrens: Well there is buffering there now. I mean how much buffering are
we required to?
Conrad: We 're not required. It 's just typical planning between different "
uses , land uses we buffer .
Ahrens: I mean what I would like to see is a school there which is not our"
decision to make . It's the school board 's decision to make and then to
have the parcel to the east of that be office/industrial . I think that 's
very natural area for office/industrial there and move the frontage road
further south.
Conrad: Paul , the reason we moved the frontage road to the north, what wall
the motivation?
Krauss: Well , if you 'll recall we went through a variety of plans that 11 looked originally at industrial/office up there . Then there was a mix of
medium density near the highway with single family near Timberwood divided
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 Page 53
by the street . Then there was an option that had a corner near McGlynn 's
on the west side of the creek . That was office because office was viewed
' as being somewhat more conducive to being near residential than pure
industrial uses . In a lot of those plans and if you recall , Mark did up
some detail plans about how that area might be laid out , the strip of land
' north of Timberwood, between Timberwood and TH 5 is not terribly deep .
When you put in a collector street and then divide up the property that way
with something north of that and something south of that , you wind up with
somewhat constrained parcels .
' Ahrens: But it is more developable for the landowners to have office/
industrial up there isn't it?
' Krauss: Well what do you mean by more developable?
Ahrens: It 's easier to sell that idea .
' Krauss: Presumably that 's the case , yeah .
Ahrens: I 'm afraid we're creating a situation where somebody 's not going
to be able to sell their land .
' Conrad: Jim , how are you?
Wildermuth: Well I think the arguments presented tonight against trying to
zone that anything residential were pretty compelling . We heard from a
number of different property owners and the fellow adjacent along TH 5 that
said that a developer that had contacted him via letter , that he in turned
responded to had told him that they had absolutely no interest in anything
t along there . From a residential standpoint . It kind of indicates that I
don 't know that we have to make a decision tonight but I think that that
section north of Timberwood ought to be revisited all the way across . And
I do think something should be done with the frontage road . I would favor
seeing the frontage road probably adjacent to the Timberwood lots . The
northern Timberwood lots maybe with a requirement of a fence or something
like that .
' Conrad: Remember the original intent , and there were several intents but
as we moved away from industrial/commercial that we had there in the
beginning , the thought was to buffer . The thought was to change the variety
of visual impacts on TH 5.
Wildermuth: If you recall , I think I was one of few that voted against
making that residential and I favored continuing to see it industrial
office park or limited to office park .
Ahrens: I would go along with office park too .
Wildermuth: Create the similar classification and require office .
Conrad: Brian?
Batzli : I was initially convinced that it could be residential . Obviously
we 're going to get conflicting testimony based in part on the landowner . I
thought we had some pretty neutral people saying it could be developed
I
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 54
residential and obviously don't the people who own the property don t feel that
way , or at least that that would bring in the highest dollar investment on
their land. But as far as the road goes, I think if in fact a school
locates there , I think that 's where you want it and I think we evaluated all
bunch of different scenarios which that appeared to me at the time to be
the best . So if we decided to rezone or potential land use should not be II
residential , then I think the road has to be revisited but as far as the
residential , through a residential section , I think that's the best place
for it to go . At this point , unless we have I guess some compelling
argument that residential won't go in there and it 's just a question of holl
much money are we going to get on the land which we bought for investment
purposes , I don 't know that from a planning perspective that it should be
changed. I think the visual impact as well as basically a strip zone all II
the way along the corridor . I don 't think that 's good planning so I would
not be in favor of revisiting it unless we had some sort of compelling
testimony that says this thing is not going to go residential at all .
Emmings: I think I essentially agree with what Brian said. The fact that
the road is drawn on the map here doesn 't mean that that 's where the road
will go . If I could be the person who determines what goes north of
Timberwood , I 'd want to see the school go in on the parcel that 's marked
for the school and I would take that northeast corner and make it office
industrial . That seems to me to be , make a lot of sense with everything II
that 's around it . But for now you know , I guess my position would be that
we 've looked at all kinds of alternatives and we 're really beaten it to
death and I don't want to do it anymore . I 'm content with what 's here . I
think if we study it for another 6 months we 'll probably wind up back here
anyway . That road will either stay where it is on here or it will be
changed when a specific proposal comes in to develop the property and we 'l
just have to wait and see .
Erhart: I guess I don't disagree with Joan that when it comes to reality
and that is the time when a proposal comes in, at that point we will say
yeah , this is a nice development for industrial or office or something and ,
it makes sense and it fits with the existing buffer that exists with the
Timberwood area and we 'll change it and accept that . I think my general
feeling is in an area where we don't know today is that we ought to put it
in the comp plan as the lowest intensity use that seems reasonable and
that 's what we have it at . We have it at single family residential . We
can always increase it 's intensity when we see some specific proposals .
With that I 'm comfortable at leaving it the way it is today . But I agree ,
it 's a big problem and I think it 's going to change when we start seeing
development proposals . I think we 're going to, we 'll be forced to revisit "
it at that time. I don't think we have a problem just by leaving it the
way it is today and anticipate that .
Conrad: If you really felt there was a better use for it though, the time ll
to communicate that is right now .
Erhart: I couldn't tell you what it is . I
Conrad: Okay . I 'm comfortable leaving it the way it is . I 've struggled
with this and I think we started out with industrial use. I think the
neighbors obviously stress their buffering concerns and I think that 's why
I went along with what we 've got. I believe if I saw a buffering
I
•
Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 55
opportunity and I 've always thought this , I think we 've got a couple
things . I 'm not really concerned with green space , visual impact on TH 5 .
' To a degree I 'm concerned with residential access, neighborhood type
concept off of TH 5 however . Not going through an industrial park or a
business section. I think neighbors had some real valid points to that .
' However , I still think if I would have seen some ability to buffer to the
tune of hundreds of feet to the north. Not a hundred but hundreds , I think
I would have kept industrial there but we haven't addressed that issue'. We
haven't talked about that and I think that 's almost beyond our ability to
' do . I think the developers as they come in with proposals , I think what
I 'm saying would make Timberwood residents , and maybe what we are saying ,
we 're going to make Timberwood residents a little bit nervous . They
' probably think they 've fought this thing and it 's one of the issues you 've
got to stay with because there 's obviously a disagreement here as to the
best use of that land and I think it 's probably not over based on the
' comprehensive plan . It won 't be over until there 's zoning there and I
think that gives the developer still the opportunity to propose something
that probably the local residents feel is better than much lower housing
value properties to their north . You 're going to , I 'm not sure that the
residents were clear visioned when they looked at this but on the other
hand I am committed to buffering the residents that are here . I think we
can do that and I 'm in agreement with what we have on the plan . If I
' counted noses it 's probably 4 to 2 . It stays . We had extended large lot
useage comment .
' Emmings: Mancino 's?
Conrad: Yeah . Is there anyone that wants to run with that thought?
' Ahrens: With what?
Conrad: Extend the large lot concept to other areas .
' Emmings: To the west of Galpin' basically is what came up I think .
Wildermuth: All we 've done is create problems with the existing large lot
program . Why do we want to extend it?
Emmings: . . .extending it to the east and then we're talking about
' extending it to the west .
Erhart: I thought we just covered that didn't we?
Conrad: Yeah . The study areas . Anybody interested in taking the study
areas out of the study area concept and zoning it? Not zoning it . We 're
not doing zoning but suggesting a different 'land .
Emmings: Are you talking about the Lundgren proposal now?
' Conrad: No . I 'm talking about the TH 41 and TH 5 study area . Not Lundgren
at this time .
Batzli : I guess I 'd like to hear Paul 's reaction to Tim Keane 's comment
that they 're basically going to freeze the land use in those areas for the
next 5 years .
I
Planning Commission Meeting �•
October 24 , 1990 - Page 56
Krauss: I '
would agree that it effectively does that. That 's probably
something of a non-event because that was the goal in essence .
Emmings: Are we on solid ground doing that?
Krauss: I believe we are . You know Tim is an attorney. He may have a I
different opinion but I believe we are. You know you look at our current
plan right now and you have a big blank spot because there's nothing out
there . It just assumes it's going to be farmland so in designating it as
something that we have committed to study by 1995 , we probably accelerated
the process over what 's there right now. In addition, you 've already
directed us that the next thing you want to do is after this plan 's in
place is go into an analysis of what those study areas might be so you 've
already committed to doing it so I think Mr . Keane 's goal is probably goin
to be met . It 's doesn't appear as though it 's going to wind up with a
Fleet Farm on that corner in the near future but it 's not out of the realm '
of possibility and it 's still something that 's going to be studied and
you 've committed to do that .
Emmings: We 've got Fleet Farm on the corner and this Lundgren proposal on '
the north end . Do we have any similar pressures on the 1995 study area to
the south?
Krauss: No , and that 's quite different . There's a physical constraint in '
the study area to the south . We physically can't serve it . There 's no way
we can provide access to the sanitary sewer system at this point in time .
Emmings: So we can study the north one first .
Conrad: That 'd be after we studied the fringe business district? '
Batzli : Yeah .
•
Erhart: Are you looking for comments on this? It sounds a little '
revolutionary but I guess in thinking this whole thing over the last few
weeks , and again in listening tonight I guess I would propose and support
that we actually extend the 1995 study area to include all the property
west of Galpin Blvd. and south of TH 5 for a number of reasons . One is
that I think , I have a sense that we 're just a little bit too ambitious in
the amount of land we 're trying to put in the MUSA line today. I know the '
numbers all add up and the projections and everything but I sense we 're
just a little bit too ambitious . Two is that we don't have any idea how
we 're going to serve that with sewer . It's a long ways from the Lake Ann
Interceptor and we 've got 1 ,000 acres which is closer to the existing Lake I
Ann Interceptor that we can use the next 10 years figuring out how to serve
that with sewer . I just don't know why we 're concerning ourselves with
that area down there at this point when it makes more sense to throw it in
with the 1995 study area . It seems to align itself with that area . Lastl
is that I don't know , I 'm not sure we know what that area is best served
at . It may be that commercial is a better use for the southeast section oll
that intersection of TH 41 and TH 5 . So that 's my feelings about that , I
think I expressed that one time early on in this process that I felt that
that part of it ought to be left out too. '
Conrad: So you 're talking west of?
11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 57
Erhart: West of Galpin , south of TH 5. The other areas are logical to me .
Here you 've got a large residential that essentially is served with gravity
flow . Although I do agree that the Highland or Lundgren thing ought to be
considered . That makes some good sense . So we have a general area of
residential that could be served with gravity flow and you have your
' industrial which follows the railroad tracks and merges with the industrial
park in Chaska . To me this part is still so far out from the existing
sewer system and it 's not clear to me that we have to add that much land in
at this time .
Emmings: But it 's industrial to the south and to the west of all those
areas .
' Erhart: I 'm not saying it won't be industrial .
Conrad: What are the potential? Paul , do you want to respond to that at
all?
Krauss: Okay . As I indicated earlier , we 're proposing to bring 2 ,600
' acres into the MUSA line . When you eliminate the existing Timberwood type
situations . When you eliminate Carlson and Prince under the assumption
they 're not going to be available . When you eliminate lakes and wetlands
' and future park acquisitions , you 're down to 1 ,500 acres of ground that 's
potentially developable if individual property owners make the decision in
that t.imeframe to do that and we can 't, we obviously don 't believe that
' that 's going to happen uniformily . From a residential standpoint , we 're
convinced that we 've undervalued or undershot the amount of residential
land that probably could justifiably be made available in the next 10
years . If you take our 4 .75 growth rate and bring that back to how many
' acres we need , I forget the exact number but we're shorting ourselves . If
we drop the area west of Galpin , south of TH 5 from the plan, more
importantly you 're eliminating probably about 60% of the additional
IOP land which we 're currently out of in the community and that was one of
the goals was to provide for a reasonable amount of growth in employment
and that chunk of land is approximately 200 acres? I think Mr . Shardlow'.s
company owns 160 and I think there 's another 40 across the way by the
' Arboretum . It 's a significant amount of what we had allocated for the next
10 to 15 years of industrial office growth . Thirdly , and I don 't say this
as a sort of a threat lurking there in the background but it can't be
' denied that some of these property owners have already apparently talked to
the City of Chaska about annexation should they be able to serve these
properties and we not . We 've already lost one parcel over there based on
' that rationale . To the best of my knowledge I 've been led to believe that
some of the property owners that were here tonight have already made
inquiries to the City of Chaska along those lines . I guess I 'll leave you
with those items .
Conrad: Anybody interested in supporting Tim's , not a motion but Tim 's
request to broaden that study area?
' Emmings: I 'm not .
Batzli : No .
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 58
1
Conrad: Me neither . Mary Harrington brought up some issues. I think the
one that we paid attention to , or at least I did , rerouting the access roa
a little bit to the northwest to create a pocket of land for commercial or
industrial use . Anybody want to follow that up?
Wildermuth: I guess I didn't follow, I don't understand what that proposal'
was .
Conrad: It was , as we understood it , it was basically to take that I
frontage road. Where you see the school? Okay , and route that frontage
road, keep the frontage road north as it goes to the west . Keep it west
and then bring it down gradually to the south and it would carve out a
parcel that she said could be industrial or commercial .
Emmings: That 's very similar to Joan 's . My response would be similar to
my response to Joan 's to move this further south . This is real fine tuning
and then I think it would be better done with , I don 't need you here . I
don't think we ought to do that . That fine tuning can be done with
specific plans and I think the plan we 've got is alright .
Conrad: I don 't think it really serves any purpose right now. Planning
wise or property wise . Anybody else on that issue? Let 's go to the
intersection of Galpin and TH 5 to the east . Comments on not residential 1
but more commercial use . Anybody sensitive to revisiting that issue?
Erhart: Why did we take it , we had it commercial at one time . Why did well
move it?
Krauss: Well I can only indicate what I thought your direction was on
that .
Erhart: It was my idea right?
Krauss: I don't recall who 's it was but we believed that it was a good
neighborhood commercial site since it was physically removed from the area
to the north. There 's a line of trees and I believe a low area and Mark ,
how many acres was that?
Koegler : Well the total is somewhere around 13 I believe but bear in mind
there 's the park . . .to divide in there and there would be frontage road
carving through here so the net is going to be smaller than that .
Krauss: Yeah . There's probably still a viable site left . When you I
directed us to remove that I believe you were reacting to a lot of input
that you had gotten that there was a desire not to have commercial intrude
into residential neighborhoods and we were directed to remove it . 1
Conrad: Who directed that?
Erhart: Let 's hang him. I
Conrad: I 'm trying to think of the situation. It was Emmings .
Emmings: No it wasn't . I remember someone coming in and saying that 1
because it was low .
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Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 59
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Krauss: There was the fellow from the Arboretum was one of the people who
said it was a low , wet site as I recall but you know , frankly it is not .
It's at the grade of the highway adjacent to the intersection .
Conrad: So you have taken the commercial out , designation . Anybody want
to put it back in?
Erhart: Is it staff 's continued recommendation to make that corner
' commercial?
Krauss: You know there 's so much in the comp plan and things that we feel
strongly about and things that we feel are a good idea but don 't feel
' strongly about . I guess this falls into the later category . We originally
proposed it as a neighborhood commercial site . We think it 's reasonable to
think that neighborhood scale services belong someplace between downtown
' and Victoria . That seemed to be a good place to do it where it would be
buffered from adjoining neighborhoods . On the other hand , you know it 's
not a life and death issue .
' Conrad: Any takers on that?
Wildermuth: I agree with Paul . I mean it 's what , right adjacent to the
larger study area . Just leave it the way it is .
Conrad: Leave it?
' Krauss: By leave it do you mean put it back or leave it the way it is?
' Conrad: No , leave it the way it is .
Emmings: Leave it orange .
' Conrad: I think that 's an area we sure could be sensitive to in the future
however . If there 's a need . The Lundgren proposal as part of the 1995
study area . Paul you felt that there 's some rationale for considering
' that .
Krauss: Yes sir I do . As I say, we went into this process knowing , well
we come out of this process knowing that we 're probably shorting ourselves
on residential land for the next , for the duration of the plan . As time
goes on we become more and more convinced that at least if we take what
people are telling us on face value , a lot of the land that we 're assuming
' is potentially available for development won't be . It's hard to envision
the Mancino's having their property developed in the next 10 years although
that 's in that category of potentially viable land . I think we can justify
an increment to the residential classification of the magnitude that
they 're requesting . I also think that having seen the layout that they
prepared , that it seemed emminently reasonable. The dividing line there
frankly was not given a whole lot of thought because that 's where the 1980
' plan had it and it was originally the 1990 MUSA and it 's now the year 2000 .
We didn 't pay a whole lot of attention as to what was actually on the
ground there . When you look at the Lundgren plan, it makes sense from two
standpoints . It uses the wetland which is really the effective barrier
that should separate whatever happens with TH 5 from the residential area .
It also provides us with the potential of building that street through
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Planning Commission Meeting ''
October 24 , 1990 - Page 60
there that we believe we need to handle the growth. I 've also had a numbe11
of discussions with the property owner immediately to the east , the Song 's
and I believe they 're interested in doing something with their property ill
the timeframe of the plan and it really fits together quite well . So yes ,
I would support his conclusion .
Conrad: Is there anybody with a difference of opinion? I
Emmings: At first blush, and we only got the plan yesterday to look at an
that 's my reservation . At first glance it appears to be a very good plan .
I don't think , I wasn't aware of the extent of that wetland in there . It
doesn 't show up on our .maps. It seems to be a real natural dividing line
and the subdivision looks like a good one but I just don't think we 've had
time enough to consider it . Getting that road through there I thought was/
a big plus to the plan so it may be , I guess my position on it would be
that we just haven 't had the time to look at it or evaluate it but my I
concern would be that if we don't drop the MUSA line down now to say go
through the center of that , then we 'd have to go back to the Met Council
right after we get done . Let's say they buy what we 're trying to sell them
here and we 've got to come right back with a little addition right off the'
bat . I don't know how that 's going to go . How that's going to play so it
might be , it might make some sense looking at it from that aspect to do it
now . I don't know .
I
Conrad: I think my thought would be to do it , to direct staff to change
those boundaries before this gets to City Council to review . To review it
To look for the pros and cons and do a thorough job of analysis . I
Emmings: Is that in fact a wetland?
Krauss: Yes . I
Emmings: Okay . It just doesn't show up on our map. It 's big to not show'
up on our map .
Krauss: It 's quite a significant one , yes . Well , a lot of them don't show
up on our map . I
Emmings: I know but this is a real big one you know and that 's a lot of .
Wildermuth: I agree . I think it ought to be included in this study . In I
the plan . It would reduce the 1995 study area then right?
Conrad: Yes . I
Wildermuth: By roughly 35 acres .
Conrad: It makes sense that that's the right long term use . From the way 1
the natural boundaries are , I think the boundaries for the study area were,
well a little bit arbitrary and here we have some natural features to go b
that are going to dictate how that study area gets developed so I think
logically on the surface it certainly makes sense . I think Steve suggeste
that there's got to be a little bit more thought put to it but on the
surface I think it makes sense . Brian?
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11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 61
Batzli : Well I 9 uess i echo Steve 's sentiments that I don 't know because I
haven 't been out to the site . I haven 't really looked at it . It seems to
' me that obviously , and the particular applicant apologized for not bringing
it to our attention earlier but it seems like a last minute adjustment
which I don 't know whether it's warranted or not .
' Conrad: Paul , when you say that we have undershot the mark for allocating
land for new residential use , why are you saying that?
' Krauss: Do you have a table that shows that Mark?
Koegler : Mr . Chairman, if I might address that . I think consistently in
' this plan you 've gone after the reasonable test and we went through that
when we talked about all the population household projections and ended up
with what you labeled as the City's . . . Those extrapulated to the plan call
' for a total land requirement for residential of 1 ,258 acres . Now bear in
mind what we 've always used in this planning process for the last 10 years
as has the Met Council is a 1 .5 factor or 50% overage to allow for market
' flexibility to take care of the Prince properties and some of the others
that will not develop . We stress that that 's important and the Met Council
has agreed with that consistently . That bumps that number to close to
1 ,900 acres that are required . We're presently showing about 1 ,410 so this
' addition of a net of roughly 70 or 90 , whatever it was , is certainly still
supportive and I think still passes that reasonable test quite easily .
' Conrad: Tell me Paul what the process is . I don 't know what they 're going
to do in terms of closing the school down . The question now is , what 's
your next step as a staff? I haven 't opened it up for other comments other
than the ones that I 've brought up but do we need, and I guess
' commissioners you can tell me too , do you want to review this and have
other comments at our next meeting or whenever we can deal with it? Do you
want to forward it on to the City Council and I would say if we did that ,
' when would this reach them Paul?
Krauss: Mr . Chairman , I 'm not sure of the exact date . If you told us to
go ahead , make some changes and send it to the Council tonight , it 's really
' a matter of scheduling . They only have , we 're missing meetings because of
holidays . I 've got to believe it wouldn 't get to them before the end of
November .
Conrad: So for us to review this at a next meeting or whenever we can may
not delay them reviewing it?
' Warren: Council meetings first and third Mondays in November .
' Krauss: It wouldn 't be a significant delay, no.
Conrad: Not that I think we should or whatever . I just wanted to clarify
that . Is there a direction that you folks would like to take in terms of
' getting it out of our hands? Reviewing a few more issues? I think we
really have to get out of the building right now . When the lights go out .
Erhart: I think the Lundgren issue is the last issue isn't it?
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Planning Commission Meeting I
October 24 , 1990 - Page 62
Conrad: Well it 's the last one that I brought up and that doesn't deal 11
with anything else .
Emmings: You 've hit on all of mine . I think you ought to hire a ,
professional proof reader to go over this text . There 's words missing .
And I 'm not , well I am being critical I guess but I think after you work on
something this long, you can 't really read it anymore . I think you ought 1
to hire someone to read it and go through it so that , it 's pretty bad.
Batzli : I had a minor issue that Eric Rivkin brought up on the DNR owned
land . Is the parcels that he's talking about significant enough to show u
on our map? Should they be green or are these things just small that
wouldn't show up anyway?
Koegler : It 's a fairly small piece . We 've looked at . . .entirely wetland .
It can be added as a green dot on the map . We certainly can do that . It 's
not a big factor . ,
Conrad: Okay , there 's really only one outstanding issue that we 're kind of
surrounding here . Joan , were you in favor of that? '
Ahrens: I don't know. I can't say one way or the other right now.
Wildermuth: I got the packet last night and read it through and yes .
Conrad: Brian , you 're sort of saying hey , I don't know?
Batzli : Correct . '
Conrad: And what would you like to have happen?
Batzli : Well the thing that troubles me is that there may be other type
situations which may have arisen in the city and that we may or may not
have reviewed if people had been given the same chance . I 'm concerned thall
dealing with it at this late moment , I love Lundgren Brothers developments
but it appears to me that we may be showing some sort of favoritism to this
particular project and I don't know the exact reason why . '
Conrad: The reason that staff related was that we 're under what we should
be requesting. -
Batzli : I understand that but we've seen one proposal and I 'm just , I 'm
concerned about it and I raise it so that we can at ieast.ail be totally on
board and this is the way that we want to go. ,
Conrad: Okay.. Steve you were in favor of. Tim, you were in favor of
including it .
Wildermuth: Ladd?
Conrad: Yeah . ,
Wildermuth: Maybe you just ought to make the point that you know , before
any type of development comes through , there 's a lot of steps to go througll
yet .
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11 Planning Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1990 - Page 63
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Emmings: Yeah , we 're not approving this subdivision .
Batzli : I realize that .
Wildermuth: It 's just some rough sketching from a plan standpoint .
Ahrens: But that 's removing a lot of land from the study area .
' Conrad: A lot of it is undevelopable.
Ahrens: I mean there must have been some reason we had that in there .
' Emmings: We 're precluding the possibility of that subdivision if we don't
include that land now I think and I don 't want to do that so I 'd move the
MUSA line down and I 'd move this whole thing onto .
Conrad: Do you want to dish no staff review or are you comfortable
directing staff to do that?
Emmings: I 'm comfortable on the basis of the fact that we now know that
there 's a natural feature there that provides a better dividing line that
the MUSA should run through rather than just running it on lot lines .
Conrad: Okay . And Tim?
Erhart: Exactly . There 's no rationale for the lines that are there other
than it 's lines that were made up 10 years ago . This at least we 've got
something and it makes sense .
Conrad: So what would you like to do in terms of our analysis? Are you
comfortable letting staff move the line based on the proposal?
Erhart: Yep . Yep .
Conrad: Okay . I think there are more in favor at this time of moving the
line so let 's move the line . Anything else?
Emmings: Are we going to move this on to City Council?
Conrad: We have to make that motion .
Emmings: Are you ready?
Conrad: Wait. Is there anything else? Okay, make the motion please .
Emmings: I 'll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of the
Comprehensive Plan with the one change we discussed with the northern
boundary of the 1995 study area on the corner of TH 41 and TH 5 being moved
down to run through the middle of the wetland that 's been now identified on
the maps .
Conrad: Is there a second?
Erhart: I 'll second that .
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Planning Commission Meeting I
October 24 , 1990 - Page 64
Conrad: Any discussion?
Batzli : I guess I 'd just like to go on record that I 'd like staff to look !'
at that very carefully .
Conrad: I think that 's another , yeah me too type of comment . And would
expect that if something , I 'd like to see the analysis that you do on it I
prior to the City Council seeing it . Anymore discussion?
Emmings moved, Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of the Comprehensive Plan with the one change that the northern
boundary of the 1995 study area on the corner of TH 41 and TH 5 be moved
down to run through the middle of the wetland that's been now identified oil
the maps. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Conrad: I thank you all who are here and stayed with us . I 'm impressed .
That 's kind of nice of you to do that . We lost a few people out there but'
thank you . Stay in touch with the newspapers because it will let you know
when this goes to City Council . City Council has the last say and there
will be changes . Then beyond that Metro Council has the last say . Thank
you .
Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in I
favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:15 p.m. .
Submitted by Paul Krauss '
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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11
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING LINEDITEn
NOVEMBER 7, 1990
Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:38 'p.m. .
MEMBERS PRESENT: Steve Emmings, Ladd Conrad, Brian Batzli , Jim Wildermuth
and Joan Ahrens
' MEMBERS ABSENT: Tim Erhart and Annette Ellson
STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss , Planning Director; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior
Planner ; and Sharmin Al-Jaff , Planner 1
' PUBLIC HEARING:
SITE PLAN AMENDMENT FOR MCGLYNN BAKERIES TO ADD A 52.972 SQUARE FOOT
' MANUFACTURING ADDITION AND A 3,600 REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT ADDITION TO THE
EXISTING BUILDING ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP AND LOCATED AT ONE MCGLYNN DRIVE.
Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report on this item .
' Krauss: There 's one additional thing I might add too. The applicant is
attempting to get the building in the ground expeditiously. They have a
rapid work schedule and we tried to be accommodating with that. What they
would like to do is be able to put the foundation of the building in early.
What we 've come to accept , if you 're willing, is basically this. If the
review goes through smoothly tonight for their application , we discussed
this with the City Council on Monday. The City Council , assuming
everything goes well here, is willing to allow staff to issue a foundation
permit which would be totally at the builder 's risk should the Council come
up with new conditions but it would allow them to get into the ground
starting next week. The Council will have final say on the site plan
itself . We 'll get it on the next meeting but because of the schedules that
' we have coming up, because of the holidays, they would lose sufficient time
that they probably wouldn 't be able to get the building started this week.
Again, this is all contingent upon a successful review here tonight but the
' Council was willing to go along with that.
Conrad: Jo Ann, what 's the new building versus the old building on that?
Olsen: The gray area. . .
Conrad: Okay, good. Thanks . We 'll open it up for comment. If people
from McGlynn would like to make a presentation, we'd start it off with
that .
Scott Harri : Thank you Mr . Chairman. Thank you staff. My name is Scott
Harri and I 'm from Van Doren, Hazard, Stallings. Our role in the project
has been to prepare the submittal that you have before you in part and as
co-authored with the applicant 's architects, •Setter , Leach & Lindstrom.
•' With us tonight is, on my far right is Dan McGlynn with McGlynn Bakeries.
Dick Erickson with Setter , Leach & Lindstrom and Tom Roberts with C .F.
Haglund. C.F. Haglund is the construction manager and contractor for
' McGlynn Bakeries on the project and as I mentioned, Setter , Leach is doing
the architectural work on the project. We'd like to show you, as staff
had mentioned. . . If you look at this top elevation you will see the trees
and plantings that we would be proposing as an alternate means to
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 2
satisfy. . .as staff had indicated earlier . . . What we 're proposing on this
thing in order to bring down the height and massing of the building itself
is we 're proposing I guess an alternating section of evergreen trees that
would be approximately 14 to 16 foot in height interspersed with deciduous
' trees which would lend I guess year round , a variety of color to that wall
and hopefully reduce the long distance type of concerns that staff had
indicated . Secondly, what we would like to do and the other thing that Jo
' Ann had mentioned was as part of the project evolving beyond the submittal ,
what you 've seen there is the architectural development of a smoking
shelter and outdoor break area . To that extent the contractor would like
' to build most of the surface improvements out there this fall if possible ,
if weather permits . Thus we 've moved ahead with some of the design and I
would like to have Dick Erickson I guess make a very brief presentation on
what that feature looks like . At this point we 've got some architectural
' drawings , so Dick? And then following what , he's got some perspectives and
then I have a site plan that shows what the surface improvements and
landscaping would be in that area .
' Dick Erickson: On the existing south side of the office , this is a thumb
nail sketch of the office . . .in the background . We 're developing . . .and
' canopy and under the canopy a small enclosed shelter where employees can
come out at their break and have a cigarette . This shelter is there
because after relatively . . .It 's actually and enclosed glass area not too
dissimilar to a city bus stop . The canopy will project out . . .across the
canopy as a roof element and then the glass portion of the enclosure would
be . . .color on the first and second level and in the corner of the office
here there are two major . . .and we 're using that same idea . . . I just wanted
' to give you an orientation . This canopy area again is right by this
triangular area shown on the plan right here . Sitting in this I guess open
space . What we have proposed for that area is , in that nitch right there ,
the canopy area . . .right here the main entrance to a large employee
' lockers . . .through this sidewalk system right in here . There's an outdoor
patio area here with picnic tables on it surrounded by some landscaping .
There 'd be a large berm that we had built over here to somewhat screen this
' lower level break room and lunch room from the parking lot here so the
views are somewhat protected from the lower level of the building so this
sidewalk system over here will just be kind of a . . .supplements the packet
' and submittal and comments that staff has made . I think Dan would like to
say a few words .
Dan McGlynn: Good evening . I 'm Dan McGlynn from McGlynn Bakeries. I just
' wanted to come up and say hello . I haven 't been to a Council meeting yet
or Planning Commission yet . My brother 's been handling most of that . I
just want to say that we 've really enjoyed our move in to Chanhassen .
Because of the way we were structured in Eden Prairie , we were forced to
look for other places to build . Chanhassen has been a great spot so far
and everyone with the city has been more than accommodating for us to grow
' as fast as we 'd like to . We 're experiencing some very rapid growth in our
company . Moving in just in December for the offices and a little bit of
production in November , it 's amazing to us that we're already asking to add
on to our building since we weren 't expected to need that space for another
5 years and it looks like we 'll use the space very quickly with our fast
growth but we 've now got over 300 employees . It 's become a major campus
for us and we really appreciate what the City 's done to accommodate us in
being able to maintain our fast growth because without that , we 'd be in
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 3
trouble in our industry . Thank you . If you have any questions, we 're all I
here and we 'd be happy to answer anything .
Conrad: We might have some later . Thanks Dan . Good to have your company
in town. Okay , we 'll open it up for other public comments . Are there any
other comments on this particular project?
Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted I
in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Ahrens: I have a question about the east side of the building . Now that 's'
the side that faces Audubon Road? Right? And that's going to be part of
the new building?
Olsen: Yeah , there is a portion . There will be an east wall . '
Ahrens: What is the landscaping on that side of the building?
Olsen: They 're really not changing what 's already there . There 's a pretty'
extensive berm . A berm for visual on Audubon and that has some landscaping
on it . . .so we 've screened that fairly well . . .
1
Ahrens: And what about the north side of the building?
Olsen: Again you 've got the berming and landscaping . This is where '
they 're going to be doing the grading . . . .elevation there that will be
flattened out and in the future there will be other industrial . . .
Ahrens: I guess I 've always approached that building from the north and I
that , it 's just a stark white wall is my first approach to that building
and I 've always .
Krauss: That 's true but what we 've found in working with this is the
building was designed to be modular . It's expandable and it 's expandable
in a series of phases . The southern building wall that we 're working with I
now is the ultimate expansion of that building so we 're putting in the
permanent landscaping there . The north building wall will have some future
expansions that are programmed and come later . And as we view it , as that I
ultimate wall is expanded to it 's final location, we'll have the similar
treatment incorporated at that time .
Ahrens: Okay . I 'm glad to see the landscaping plan because the building
needs it . I don 't have any other questions at this time . The staff report
is pretty complete.
Conrad: I know you 're over there Jim . Anything? '
Wildermuth: I agree. The staff report is very well done . It looks like
all the bases have been covered . I have just two questions . Is there any
plan for noise abatement on the refrigeration equipment or isn't that going
to contribute significantly to the outside ambient noise level? Do you
have existing outside refrigeration equipment now?
Dick Erickson: The existing refrigeration equipment has been in operation
now for a year and a half about . Is located behind a precast screen wall I
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Planning Commission Meeting
11 November 7 , 1990 - Page 4
' right here . . . As a part of this refrigeration equipment for the expansion
that we 're proposing now , we 're adding additional precast concrete screen
wall right here that will be the same appearance as this one only there
will be initially a funnel out to the . . .primarily to keep air . . .but the
' bulk of this refrigeration will come off of this area to serve future
expansion of the freezer which will help in this general area . As far as
noise , I wouldn 't expect there 'd be much change from what you 've been
' experiencing for the last year .
Wildermuth: This is what , an ammonia system?
Dick Erickson: Yes .
Wildermuth: So it's basically just the turbine noise?
' Dick Erickson: Yes .
' Wildermuth: Okay . One of the things that 1 guess , one of the comments
I 've heard about the operation in general is that from time to time there 's
an odor in the area . Are there any plans to address that or will this
contribute to that? Strong vanilla smell is what I 've heard .
' Dan McGlynn: There is some odor I suppose associated with our business in
that the air velocity going through our ovens and going up stacks and what
not does give out baked products smell . We have the same situation in Eden
Prairie . In Eden Prairie it 's a little different in that McDonald 's is
across the street and hopefully we 're cancelling some of those smells . I 'm
' not real good at it because I don 't smell it anymore but I think it 's one
of the , in this particular plan because the product , we 're baking mostly
muffins and light pastry products . The odors given off are much more mild
than say strong cinnamon based or onion based products that we have in the
' Eden Prairie facility . I don 't see the current smells as changing very
much and with the capacity that we 're building onto the plant now, there
will be additional lines to what we have but I don 't see it increasing
' dramatically at this point .
Wildermuth: There will be additional stacks though? Vent stacks?
' Dan McGlynn: There will be , yes . This particular expansion is mostly for
baked product . If and when we expand the north side of the building , that
is unbaked product and there 'd be no odors associated with that. And just
' to touch on the noise issue . The main engine room for the ammonia system
is enclosed in the building and that is rather noisey but it 's contained
within it and the only thing outside is the cooling towers which just have
' large fans on them .
Wildermuth: Yes . That 's typical of an ammonia system . Paul , thank you .
Has there been any comment from the neighbors?
' Krauss: The only comment that we ever received directly on an odor issue
was early last spring when we were having some of the informational
l meetings on the Comp Plan. At that time there was somebody, and I don't
recall who , but somebody from Timberwood who mentioned that they found an
odor objectionable . They weren 't sure whether it was coming from McGlynn's
or from the Pies facility in Chaska and as I recall , they also raised a
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 5 1
concern about some lighting. Unshielded lighting that was directed towards,
their neighborhood . We addressed the lighting . We -asked the project
manager to change those fixtures which they did and we 've not since heard
anything on the odor .
Wildermuth: Okay . It looks like a good project to me and it 's nice to see
somebody doing well enough to expand.
Batzli : I think I just have two questions . I like the addition and the .I
report and I like the landscaping here . I think that'd be attractive and
it 's nice to see some break in the evergreens . My question was , there's a
difference in plans and there 's a large dollar figure in your
administrative approval . The question is , they 've given a letter of credit
to the City apparently to cover the cost of the berming and landscaping .
Does that change at all with what they 've got here?
Krauss: There 's going to be an increment , yes .
Olsen: Another letter of credit . ,
Batzli : An additional letter of credit? But that 's in addition to the
$6 ,000 .00 one is it not?
Krauss: The one that we have now covers the parking lot installation and
the buffer of that . What we 're looking at to get to now is the incremental
cost of landscaping that 's being proposed specifically around the building
proper .
Olsen: It 's an addition to the $6 ,000.00 though too for this part of the I
project . What you 're looking from Dave 's memo?
Batzli : Right . But there was in the administrative approval we got a
letter of credit for $211 ,000 .00?
Olsen: They essentially covered the cost of all of that . '
Batzli : Right . And so there would be an additional letter of credit after
that? Okay . Do we need to do something in our approval?
Krauss: No . It 's in the zoning ordinance now. It 's done as a matter of
routine .
Batzli : Okay . And there was apparently some plans submitted to you for I
the grading dated a different date than the plans we have . Were those
changed at all in our plans? I
Krauss: No .
Batzli : Okay . Those were the only two questions. '
Emmings: I don 't have anything additional . What 's here seems reasonable
to me . ,
Conrad: The landscape plan here that was presented tonight , that falls on
the south side of the parking lot?
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Planning Commission Meeting
1 November 7 , 1990 - Page 6
' Olsen: The building .
Conrad: Of the building?
Olsen: Right up against the wall .
Conrad: So the landscape plan that I see in the packet , this is in
' addition to what , the landscape plan in the packet so we really have
sheltered , okay . There are no berms on the south side of the parking lot .
I don 't know what addition has been put on the parking lot . How much has
been put there? Are we talking big addition or small addition? I don't
have a clue .
Olsen: On the parking lot side?
Conrad: Yes .
' Olsen: Yeah . It 's kind of see where the original one ended here?
Conrad: Yeah . Okay , to the west . Okay , show me the new stuff . What 's
' new? All that? Okay .
Olsen: And the berming , it just drops right down . Down into that little
area .
' Conrad: Right . So we haven 't asked for berming . We 've asked for trees .
' Olsen: Yeah , lots of landscaping .
Krauss: There is heavy berming and landscaping however along the west
elevation of the parking lot which faces Timberwood .
' Conrad: And that 's where I was going . Getting there kind of slow but .
Olsen: Almost naturally right now .
Conrad: So this is probably our only time that we can really get into any
' kind of concern with the westerly side right now?
Olsen: They'll be coming in for an expansion .
' Conrad: To the west?
Olsen: Whole new building. . .so there 's a potential that there will be
another building expansion to the west where at that point you would even
landscape further .
Conrad: But is the landscape plan to the west of the parking lot , is that
the final landscape plan that will have their . The building may expand to
the west but how about to the west of the parking lot? Are we looking at
the final landscape plan for the shielding of the parking lot?
IFOlsen: Of the parking lot?
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 7 1
Conrad: More than likely . And that is right now trees and berm or what is
that?
Krauss: There 's an extensive change in elevation . It 's on the order of
what Scott , 10 feet? ,
Olsen: You can kind of see . . .and this is where there 's expansion . Right
now we 're not . . . ,
Conrad: Okay.
Scott Harri : Right now this property slopes up on this side up here to a
large plateau area and then slopes down about 10 feet from the elevation o
this proposed parking lot over here . And then the trees would be inbetween
the parking lot and this plateau area . ,
Conrad: Okay , that helps . We 're all comfortable?
Wildermuth : I particularly like the south treatment . I
•
Conrad: Jim , you brought up a good point on the smell . I 've never though
that but it sounds like we 've had one complaint .
Emmings: I 'd have a comment on that . You may be getting a lot more
complaints because I remember I read an article , this has to be 20 years
ago . Someone had done some studies in areas where they had bakeries in
Europe and there were bakery smells in the air and they found that the
birth rates around there were higher than they were and I think maybe we
should warn the Timberwood people . And I 'm glad I don 't live there .
Conrad: Was there a serious side to that article?
Emmings: No , it was serious . That study was probably funded by the
military .
Conrad: Anything else? Is there a motion? '
Wildermuth: I 'd make a motion that the Planning Commission recommend ,
approval of site plan #88-3 and the conditional use permit #88-2 for
McGlynn Bakeries for expansion to a production plant area and refrigeration
equipment room as shown on the site plan dated October 16 , 1990 with the
following conditions 1 thru 6 . With the understanding that the letter of II
credit and cash escrow amounts would be increased commensurate with.
Krauss: Could we modify condition number 1 which implies that we were
going with an architectural approach to the south elevation . That's since I
been surplanted by the landscaping plan . That the -approval should be
amended to include the landscaping along the south elevation that was
presented to the Planning Commission this evening . ,
Wildermuth: So incorporated .
Conrad: Where do you want to incorporate that? ,
Olsen: In condition 1 .
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 8
Wildermuth: Probably replacing the architectural features as landscaping
features .
Batzli : Second .
' Wildermuth moved, Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of Site Plan #88-3 and Conditional Use Permit #88-2 for McGlynn
Bakeries for expansion to the production plant area and refrigeration
equipment room as shown on the site plan dated October 16, 1990 with the
following conditions:
' 1 . The applicant provide staff with a plan indicating how the landscaping
features of the office will be extended to the production plant
addition.
2 . The applicant shall provide additional Colorado Green Spruce along the
south entrance leading into the southerly parking lot .
' 3 . Comply with conditions of approval of staff 's administrative approval
of the parking lot expansion ( Attachment ) .
11 4 . The applicnat shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the
Watershed District permit .
' 5 . Working hours shall be between 7:00 a .m . and 6:00 p .m . Monday through
Saturday with no work allowed on Sundays and holidays .
6 . To guarantee compliance with the conditions of approval , the applicant
' shall furnish the City with a letter of credit from a bank or a cash
escrow in the amount of $6 ,000 .00 . The security will be released by
the City upon satisfaction that the conditions contained herein have
' been complied with .
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-263 (2). RECREATIONAL
' BEACHLOTS TO ALLOW PORTABLE CHEMICAL TOILETS ON RECREATIONAL BEACHLOTS.
Public Present:
Name Address
Gene & Nancy Christensen 6561 Kirkwood Circle
' President , Minnewashta Creek
Homeowners Association
Sharmin Al-Jaff presented the staff report . Chairman Conrad called the
public hearing to order .
' Nancy Christensen: I 'm Nancy Christensen and I live at 6561 Kirkwood
Circle and I 'm the President of the Minnewashta Creek Homeowners
Association and we earlier requested this variance and whatever else we
asked for . I 've been working on this thing for a long time and I guess
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 9
what I 'm just saying is I 'm extremely pleased with Sharmin's help on this
situation and I thank you for her recommendation . -Thank you .
Conrad: Thank you . Any other comments? Is there a motion to close the
public hearing? ,
Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted
in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. ,
Conrad: Steve , I know you 're opinionated . I 'll start at your end .
Emmings: We get into a different kind of odors on this one . I think I 'm
kind of in favor of at least trying this . We 've got a letter here from the
Department of Natural Resources I know and they seem to be a little leary
of doing it but recognizing that it 's something that maybe is coming and I I
guess my approach would be a little different than is presented in the
staff report . One thing is I know that we have several of these in the
city at the present time . We have beachlots where they have set them up .
In fact you had one last year . Well , I say one on there .
Nancy Christensen: For a while . Couple weeks .
Emmings: Yeah , and I think they have one at Greenwood Shores didn 't they ,
or did I see that in the staff report? And I know there 's another one on
Lake Minnewashta . The Minnewashta Heights folks have one down there and
that was there all this past summer . And I don 't know if we got complaint
about it . Have we ever had any complaints about these?
Olsen: I haven 't heard any .
Emmings: Which to me maybe suggests that it 's possible to find a way to do
this but I guess I would not , at least initially, I think we ought to be III
very restrictive until we get a little more experience with it . I don't
think it ought to be a permitted use . I think it should be a conditional
use and that we should look at each and every one of them and that also
that allows , they have to give notice to neighbors so neighbors can come
and give their opinions about them . I don't think it should be a permitted
use .
Al-Jaff: We are recommending that it be a conditional use .
Emmings: Well that 's not what it says here . It says . 1
Krauss: Beachlots though are conditional use and this is an amendment to
the beachlot ordinance .
Emmings: Oh , okay .
Krauss: So somebody that comes in, if you have an existing beachlot and II
want to do this , you would have to have a modification . . .to the beachlot .
Emmings: Alright , then let me ask you this then. If it 's a grandfathered
beachlot and they want to take advantage of something that 's allowed in thell
ordinance , do they have to then meet all of the conditions of the?
I
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 10
Krauss: Not necessarily. We talked about this this afternoon . I can only
tell you what we 've thought about this . The grandfathered use does not
have a CUP okay? Having a toilet added represents what I view as an
intensification of a non-conformity . The way to deal with that is to make
' the offer of a CUP available . If it 's a CUP , they can legitimitize the
beachlot . Change the status of it recognizing that you may in -fact want to
apply. I mean when you 're intensifying something , when you 're legitimizing
something , I view it as something of a two way street . They're coming in
to ask for a toilet but you may have aspects of that beachlot that are non-
conforming that you would like to see made conforming or at least made an
improvement to as a condition of getting the CUP . I think that under the
' CUP you would have the leverage to do that .
Emmings: Okay . Because you know that , I think that Minnewashta Heights
' beachlot is only 25 feet wide so there 's a whole bunch of things they
obviously couldn 't comply with in our ordinance but on the other hand I
think that 's a good comment . Well , then there 's no doubt that if it 's a
conditional use , that 's important to me that we look at each and every one
of these . Another thing is that I don 't know why .
Conrad: I don 't understand that though . The conditional use . Therefore ,
' because you apply for a beachlot it is assumed that you can have , it 's not
like you 're looking at it . As long as it meets the rules that have been
described here , basically it 's there . So in other words , if you grant the
beachlot status and you meet the 2 or 3 rules that we 've got , it 's there
and that 's .
Emmings: Well wait . We don't have enough rules and I 'm getting to what I
think the rules ought to be . One thing is , here you 're putting basically a
structure within 50 feet of the shore and I think the shoreline , I thought
the Shoreland Ordinance , I didn't look it up but I thought the Shoreland
Ordinance says there can 't be anything within 75 feet so I don 't know why
that number wouldn 't be 75 . I 'd get them back away from the water .
Krauss: Yeah , I. guess I couldn 't argue that . I mean certainly the
structure setback is 75 feet . Is this a substantial structure? We could
come up with standards that would theoretically allow the placement of
chemical toilets but realistically not and I 'm not sure whether 50 feet
versus 75 feet is honerous enough to do that but at the very least we felt
that the 50 feet was sufficient to guarantee the physical separation for
the anchoring in the case of spillage and it was the recommendation of the
DNR , if I recall . It was more of an environmental constraint . If you
wanted to go with the 75 , I don 't think we 'd oppose it . I 'd just ask you
to make, I don 't know the situation with all the beachlots . I mean they 're
' varied and they 're .
Conrad: But is there anything allowed within 75 feet of the lake? There
is no structure to my knowledge in Chanhassen .
' Emmings: Well canoe rack maybe . Something like that.
Wildermuth: And a dock.
Emmings: That would be but those are real different to me but anyway .
Another thing is I don 't know why this isn't limited as to time . I take it
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 11 1
that they 're going to lease these units from somebody who then is going toll
maintain them and I don 't know why we wouldn 't limit. this to say June 15th
to August , end of August because that 's the only time people are using the
property in any concentration that I 'm aware of . I think , then you talk
about a permanent structure being built to house the toilet but I 'm not
sure what that means . In ( d ) . To house this unit that they rent to house II
this Satellite type unit?
Krauss: I think we were trying to cover all the bases. I mean portable II
toilets seem to come in two different types . I mean you either get the
Satellite type that 's molded in the factory and they plop it on the site or
you get something that 's , you know a chemical toilet that can be installed
in a boat or recreational vehicle or something else . Using the later , we '
like to have a structure that looks like it fits .
Emmings: Well there for sure we want that 75 feet back I would think . I II
would . And I would think that that structure , we 'd want to have separate
approval on that too. Or that it would be approved as part of this . Okay .
I guess I think there are beachlots that exist in the city where we
wouldn 't want to see one of these because they 're so small that there 's no
way to keep it from impinging on the neighbors and I don 't think , this is
convenience item and to me it takes a lower priority than the pleasure of
the neighboring residential owners . So I guess what I 'd put down here ,
I wrote a little intent section and I also added some . And the intent I
think is that , I think it should go something like this . I don 't know .
This is right off the top of my head but it is the intent of the City of II
Chanhassen to allow chemical toilets at beachlots so long as the
maintenance and use of these toilets have no undesireable impact on the
environment , residential neighbors or lake users . On Lake Minnewashta
where I live , we 've got I don't know how many beachlots but there 's got to
be I don 't know . Do you know how many? 4 or 5 , 6? And I don 't want to
drive around the lake and see a Satellite from the lake looking into it ,
see a Satellite on every one of those . It could be quite a few and Lotus
has quite a number don't they?
Conrad: A couple . • I
Emmings: - It 's more than that from what I read in here. I don't know but
it sounded like . It is being allowed primarily for the convenience and
safety of children who often cross busy streets to return home to use
toilets . It is recognized that maintenance and use of chemical toilets on
some small beachlots may be inappropriate because they cannot be adequate
screened from residential neighbors or lake users . Then I had another
condition which was the conditional use permit may be revoked if there are
complaints from residential neighbors . If there 's any violation of the I
intent of the ordinance or if there 's any evidence of failure to maintain
the toilet to eliminate odors and pollution . So I guess overall my point
is that I think there 's a good reason to have them for a short period of
time during the year and that if we could be very restrictive about it , at I
least initially , I could get behind it .
Ahrens: What would they do? Come in and tow them away? I
Emmings: Well see , you lease these things. Now you leased the one you had
out there this summer didn 't you? 11
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 12
' Nancy Christensen: Well someone in our Association had . . .
Emmings: Okay , so you lease them and then you have a pumping agreement
where they service them and all of that and I guess I see this as a
situation where that would be the way to do it . Have it there for 2 1/2
months because I can tell you that from watching , the way people use the
lake , there 's very little use of the lake even in August . The end of June
' and July it 's used very heavily and then it tapers down real fast . Even at
the end of July . In my experience . But if it was there from June 15th
until when people returned to school the end of August .
' Batzli : The season 's kind of Memorial Day to Labor Day .
Emmings: But I tell you the heavy .
Batzli : Well I know the heavy use is .
Emmings: The heavy use is right around the 4th of July and after that it
really starts falling off . At least on Lake Minnewashta . From my
observation . But anyway , that 's what I would .
Conrad: Okay . Good comments . Brian?
Batzli : Well he stole all my thunder so I 'm just going to ask kind of a
rhetorical question of the staff and that 's why , if every one of the
'. communities that we called said don 't get into it . Don 't do it . Don 't do
it . Why are we doing it?
Krauss: Who was saying don't? Oh , the cities . Well to be honest , I mean
this is , we are not incredibly excited about the specter of dealing with
another issue on a lake . You know it 's one of those things that you 'd
' prefer that it go away and never happen but it is happening . We 've been
asked to deal with it in the most effective way we know how . As to why
other communities have not dealt with it , I don 't know . Sometimes the
II situation is different . Sometimes you don 't have the recreational beachlot
that the common use on some of the lakes . I don 't know why other
communities haven 't confronted it . When I get calls from other planners
too , I mean your reaction is to air on the conservative side . If you don 't
I know the answer , then don 't do it if you don 't have to. Well , we 've been
asked to do it and so we 've done what we can to make sure that it 's done as
safely and as sensitively as possible. If the ordinance goes ahead like
IIthis , it 's something that we could administer and we could live with .
Batzli : Would it be helpful at all to require that if in fact most of
I these things are leased , and I assume that most of them would be , would it
be appropriate to have a copy of the contract on file with the city or
something? To make sure that they 're .
II Krauss: Frankly , I would prefer not . I mean I 'd prefer to deal with the
owners of the beachlot and not who they contract with . In my view the
owner 's liable for the maintenance . The owner 's liable for the conditions
' of approval . However , they obtain compliance with those conditions is
really their business . It presents a little bit of another layer of
administration for us and I 'm not sure that it 's necessary .
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 13 1
Batzli : Who then is responsible if there is some sort of , if they tip it I
over into the lake? You 're going to try to hold the, beachlot owners
responsible for that?
Wildermuth: The Association . I
Batzli : The Association?
Conrad: And what 's the penalty?
Krauss: Well I don't know . That's the concern. I mean I raised the
initial concern when I was with the City of Minnetonka you know we had one
of these things , or several of these things tipped into a bay . Now it was
from a city park but they were not anchored and were vandalized and tipped
into Libb 's Lake . Libb 's Lake does not flush very readily from Minnetonka .'
It 's the eastern most arm of the lake . As a consequence , for the rest of
the season , for a month and a half , that lake was unswimmable because
the . . .count was too high . I don 't know whether any of our lakes in
Chanhassen exhibit the same characteristics . They don't have that kind of
a bay structure certainly with a narrow little inlet that Libb 's Lake has .
We are taking the active approach here in requiring that these things be
anchored so hopefully rather than dealing with the aftermath of a problem , 11
we can try to avoid the problem in the first place . And we 've also got
the physical separation from the lake which if it 's 75 feet , particularly
more than 55 feet , you know these things don 't have a tremendous amount of II
capacity and by the time it gets to the lake , hopefully a lot of that will
be intercepted by grass or sand or whatever .
Batzli : I think these things are a favorite target of college , high 1
school , whatever aged kids . They seem to be fun to tip over . I know that
they 're tipped over frequently at Crescent Beach in Shorewood/Tonka Bay . II
that park is actually in . I was familiar with the one in Libb 's
Lake . It seems to me that you know in those instances you 're talking about
a city owned park and you should have more control over it and yet they
don 't seem to have any control over it and for us to require the beachlot
owners to control it , I don't know if that 's going to be effective or not .
That 's why I 'd almost like to see them, this may be out of the realm of
possibilities but post a bond or something . I like Steve's additions if we
go ahead with this .
Wildermuth: Believe it or not I laid awake last night thinking about this .
Conrad: With all the political stuff going on, you were thinking about 11
portable toilets.
Wildermuth: About whether or not this is a good thing or we should be '
looking at something like this and I guess I came to the same conclusion
that Steve did . That it 's probably worth while looking at and it 's
probably something that maybe who 's time has come for these beachlots . I II
would favor a time limit and I would like to see the whole concept limited
to a portable structure only . Nothing permanent so that would probably
mean taking ( d ) out of there. Reference to a permanent structure .
Especially if we 're still going to look at 50 feet because that kind of
violates everything else that we 've got .
1
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 14
Batzli : Some of them do have like a fence like stockade type approach with
a little entrance and the back swings open so they can take it out . Now
that 's the kind of screening almost that you may or may not appreciate over
the proposed screening but .
' Wildermuth: I think if I were a neighbor I 'd want to see vegetation type
screening as opposed to some kind of a fence . I think that 's pretty well
addressed in ( c ) . Fully screened by coniferous vegetation . I don't know
what the time limitation on it should be . Staff can decide that . If it 's
Labor Day to Memorial Day or whatever . Or Memorial Day to Labor Day ,
whatever it is . But I think there should be some kind of time limit on it
1 and I would like to see it restricted only to portable structures . And
would this be reviewed on a case by case basis as it 's currently proposed?
This ordinance? So you 'd have a chance to look at all these grandfathered
lots?
Krauss: Yes . Each one would have to come before you and make their case
' at a public hearing .
Conrad: But you 'd apply the rules that you lay down now .
Wildermuth: Right . Apply these rules . The beachlot association that
I belong to , I think if they came in for one we 'd probably deny it because
it 's an odd configuration and it just , I don 't know how you could do
something like that and satisfy the neighbors . That 's all .
Ahrens: I don 't have a real strong feelings about this but you know
I guess if there 's a need for this we should be looking at it . I 've heard
a lot of discussion tonight about the appearance of them and some beaches
are too small and some beaches are big enough to handle these and it seems
like we 're getting into such subjective criteria in determining where they
should be and where they shouldn 't be and if a neighbor complains and they
should be taken out . I have a lot of problems with that . I think that if
we have an ordinance that says that they 're allowable , then I 'm sure
' there 's children on all the beachlots and I 'm sure there 's a need if
that 's . Paul said there 's a need because there 's children who have to use
the portable toilets when they 're out there and then Steve says he doesn 't
want to see them on every beachlot as he 's riding around on the lake
' because of the appearance of that . I mean how are we going to determine?
Every other lot or you know , 2 out of 4 . Only half the beachlots get them
because more than that would be aesthetically ugly or how are we going to
determine that? It seems to me that if we 're going to allow these things
on beachlots , we 're going to just have to allow them . Either that or we
say only on beachlots of a certain size .
Wildermuth: Well , I think that some of the conditions that are put in
there are going to preclude that because if the beachlot that we have on
Lotus Lake were to come in and ask for one , the thing would end up having
to be located in the middle of the tennis court and it just doesn 't work .
Ahrens: Because of the setbacks?
' Wildermuth: Yeah . Because of the setback requirements . The fact that
they have to be fully screened I think is some kind of assurance that .
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - " Page 15 1
•
Batzli : There has to be at least one opening . I
Ahrens: Why can't they just plant things around it?
Wildermuth: Well they can . ,
Ahrens: So you 're saying the setback requirements will limit the number .
Wildermuth: The visual impact .
Ahrens: I think that we should be concerned with these so close to the
lake but on the other hand if people need them they need them and I think
we should provide them . I imagine we haven 't had a lot of problems with
them on with Greenwood Shores because nobody can get to that beachlot
anyway . It 's probably never even used except for 2 or 3 people a year .
Who walk 4 miles down from CR 17 to get to it .
Wildermuth: Who knows it 's there? '
Ahrens: Yeah , right . But you know I do have a problem with it . I guess
Steve , maybe you could explain what you mean if there are complaints .
I mean we get a lot of complaints from a lot of people and some of them
have some merit and a lot of them don't . If an association is approved for
putting one of these things in and a neighbor maybe , I don 't know do they
have to be right next door to the beachlot or are they across the lake from'
the beachlot . If they say I don 't like the way that looks , then do we pull
it?
Emmings: I would presume that if a person that , well first of all . You I
would and should come in before we permit it because they 're going to have
to , `to get a conditional use permit they 're going to have to give notice to'
the neighbors that they 're planning to put one of these things in and
everybody pretty much knows what they look like so you expect to see those
neighbors in here complaining then . And frankly , I 'd have a hard time
unless the association , if you have a neighbor who says I don 't want to
look out . I don 't mind looking out my window at people playing on a beach
but I do mind looking out my window and seeing a blue hut there that people
are going in and out of constantly . I don 't want to do that . I 'd have a I
hard time , unless the association could tell me how they were going to
screen it in a way so that that would be the satisfaction of that
homeowner , I would say they don 't get it .
Ahrens: What if they come in after the fact?
Emmings: After what fact? I
Ahrens: After it 's already granted .
Emmings: Who? Who comes in? 11
Ahrens: Well some neighbor who lives there .
Emmings: Coming in and saying what?
Ahrens: They don 't like it . They don 't like to look at it . '
1
Planning Commission Meeting
II" November 7 , 1990 - Page 16
Krauss: If I could . Anybody can make a complaint against things at any
time and the most we can do is follow up on that . And if it 's a complaint
that we can 't resolve at a staff level that we think is verifiable , we 'll
bring the item back before you and the City Council to re-evaluate if
' they 're violated the conditions of the approval . And if they have , you can
yank their permit .
' Ahrens: I like the intent statement that Steve added onto this but I think
that maybe the rest of the wording may be a little too restrictive .
Emmings: I guess my notion is just that if we 're going to venture into
' this , which I 'm not sure we should , but if we 're going to venture into
this , I think we should be real restrictive to start with and if they turn
out to be no problem , maybe we want to make it easier for people . But it 's
' going to be harder to go back and get more restrictive . Well , it might not
be . I shouldn 't say that . I was thinking it would be harder to get more
restrictive later . It 's harder to take something away once somebody has
it . But if there 's a demonstrated problem , I 'm sure we could find a way to
do that .
Ahrens : That 's all I have .
' Conrad: Thanks Joan .
' Wildermuth: Doesn 't Steve want to make this motion?
Conrad: Well , I have a real tough time with this one . I think a case
could be made for allowing them on certain properties but I don 't see the
' restrictiveness yet which I think everybody has said . There are just so
many negatives that can occur . It 's just one of these things saying why
are we doing this in the first place . As many outlots as we have or
' beachlots , we really haven 't been , that have been in existence for 10-15
years , I really haven 't heard all that much demand for this . The notes
that we have from one resident who has . You really have to be within 350
feet of the beachlot to be a member of that beachlot and I guess I 'm not .
IIEmmings: 1 ,000 isn 't it?
I Conrad: Ah , it is 1 ,000 . But even so , that still doesn 't seem to be a big
inconvenience to me . Yet on the other hand , I think I could be persuaded if
we had the right restrictions and we don't right now . On the sideyard
' setback , if somebody put a chemical toilet within 20 feet of my property
line I 'd go wild . I just , I 'd go bezerk you know. That is so far away
from what we 're intending . A beachlot of a priviledge . It's not a right .
It is a priviledge , not a right . It allows more people access which is a
II priviledge on that lake and whatever that means to different people . It
really is an important difference yet here you can 't impinge on the
neighbors with the volume of people . I can consider designing an ordinance
II that said that if beachiot owners , if members of the association are of
that beachiot were on either side of the beachlot , then I 'm passified a
little bit because they 're part of the process. They 're part of the
I decision making process or the process that the owner who subdivided this
land in the beginning had to deal with when he subdivides it but if that
beachlot is abutting on individual residents that 's not part of that
particular recreational beachiot . I think we don 't have the controls right
1
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 17
now . So what I 'm saying , without belaboring the issue , 50 feet is not .
Well , I can 't build a little leanto within 75 feet of a lake and therefore I
the 50 foot in our current recommendation has to go to 75 . It just has to .
25 foot from the sideyard doesn 't make any sense to me at all . That 's
just , I just don't want that . There 's got to be more protecting a
neighbor . I think the length of time that Steve said is important . I
think there should be a penalty or some recourse worked into the ordinance .
I think the portable toilet has to be colored to be , you know I 've seen a
lot of ugly ones that aren 't necessarily the prettiest things in the world .'
I 'm not sure what firmly means . Does that mean it 's on a slab? I guess my
bottom line is I don 't see anything I can vote favorably for tonight so if
somebody wants to make a motion and wants my vote , the best they can do is 11
to table it otherwise I 'll vote no .
Emmings: What would you do , can you tell us what restrictions you 'd want
so maybe we could put something together here or do you want to work on it.
Conrad: I think I said the things that I felt . - I think if surrounded , if
that beachlot was surrounded by other members or properties , then I could
vote for that .
Emmings: The trouble with that though Ladd is in the subdivisions where
you have beachlots as part of your subdivision , the neighbors on each side
aren 't part of the beachlot . They have their own beach . They have their
own lakeshore so that 's , so right away that doesn 't exist . But the real II
problem here is that on most of the older beachlots, see now we 've got to
have 200 feet on lakeshore . You 've got quite a bit of space to work with .
3 ,000 square feet but on the old ones they 're all , some are 25 feet wide . I
think that one on Lake Minnewashta is 25 . How wide is yours? How much
lakeshore have you got?
Gene Christensen: It 's 9t I think . '
Emmings: Yeah , and thereon that one you've got on one side of you there 's
a home . '
. Gene Christensen: Both sides.
Emmings : Both sides? They are private homes that have no , they 're '
lakeshore property or nothing to do whatever with that subdivision or the
use of this .
Conrad: See in that case I would have to , the only way I would grant '
something in that case Steve would be if the neighbor agreed. That 's the
only way I would do it . One , I 've got to be satisfied that environmentally'
we 've taken care of the situation . There is a reason the other communities
haven 't allowed these and I don't think we should be real naive . It 's a
problem . Tipping over and maintenance and smell and you know , the smells
of chemical toilets are not great . We 're talking about McGlynn 's , I don 't II
want to be next to that smell . Now there are ways to solve that problem .
It 's not that it 's absolute but it 's a real pain. Administratively we 're
creating a pain for the city . If we have to monitor . If we have to deal
with this. I can visualize a need but again, I would have to look at it on
a case by case basis . I would have to inform the neighbors and if they
felt it was offensive , I would have to decline . I would have to reject the"
•
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 18
use . So if we work the language in that way , then the beachlot has a
chance as long as I 've solved the environmental things and some of the
setback things . Then I would feel good about it .
' Ahrens: I don 't think we can solve the environmental problems . I mean
it 's there and it may be tipped over and it may cause problems .
' Conrad: Well no , if it 's firmly and I guess I just challenge what firmly .
In this draft it says firmly and that 's what I say . Is that a concrete
slab where it 's bolted down and then it 's going to stay . If it 's screened ,
what does screened mean? One tree .
Ahrens: Well I don 't think so .
Conrad: But see that 's what , if we 're going to put the ordinance in .
Ahrens: It says fully screened .
' Conrad: Okay , so one tree on each side? And what kind of tree? • I 'm
getting picky but again , you 've got to have that down . If you want to have
a conditional use permit , you 've got to know what you 're talking about . Now
' it 's not that we 're going to get different dimensions of the portable . We
know what it is . We know that it 's this big by this big so what are we
talking about? I guess I 'd prefer to be as definite as possible if we want
' to allow it . I 'm not real convinced I want to tamper with it but if the
balance of you feel it 's worth responding to the City Council 's need , then
I think we should put some specifics in here to deal with it . Yes sir .
Gene Christensen: I think I feel the same way as you do as far as looks .
I mean obviously if I lived there I wouldn 't like it either but you 're
talking about putting trees . You 're just talking 1 tree or 2 trees . Being
' I 'm part of the association , I want to hide it just as much as you do . We
want to make it look nice .
' Conrad: And that 's where I want to leave the problem because you 'll take
care of it because you live there and that 's really what I want to make
sure of . I want to keep out of this mess and let the association take care
of it but what happens in those situations is the immediate neighbors and
that 's what I 'm most concerned with . How do we handle , how do we make it?
You can work out things within your association but how do we take care of
the immediate neighbor and that 's the issue that I have to address myself .
' Emmings: In response to that Ladd . Now the one that you had on your lot ,
because I drive by there all the time , you couldn't, you essentially
couldn 't see it from the lake unless you looked for it . They had it way
' back towards the road . It didn't look great from the roadside but it
didn 't look bad either . I don 't think it was really objectionable . Then
we 've got this one on Lake Minnewashta Heights . This narrow 25, I think
it 's only 25 feet wide . They had one down there all summer . I never saw
it from the lake except a couple times when I looked for it and then I saw
it and it 's just sitting out there . They have residential neighbors on
' both sides and I don 't think either one of them could see it due to the
topography . So there maybe it 's perfectly appropriate and there 's no way
they met any setbacks like this because it 's 25 feet wide . They couldn 't
meet any setbacks . So these are going to have to be reviewed on a case by
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 19
case basis and it may be that somebody like Minnewashta Heights could get
the neighbors to agree to have it by simply going to them and saying we 've
had it here for 3 years . It hasn 't been a problem for you . Would you sign
something that would allow us to continue to have it? So I don 't know . I
think it needs to be rewritten. '
Conrad: I agree with what you 're saying Steve . I agree with that . I
think there 's so many different situations with these beachlots . It 's hard'
to develop an ordinance that meets them all . Sometimes they 're screened .
Sometimes the neighbors are a distance away and won't be a bother . You
know Lotus Lake Estates is a good example . They have 3 ,000 feet of
lakeshore . They can put it there and nobody 's going to know . You know and'
there 's .
Wildermuth: Lotus Lake Estates? Is that the one up on the hill there?
Conrad: Yeah . See they 've got 3 ,000 feet . In that case , there 's no
problem with neighbors but then again, we have a lady who 's talking about ,
who 's writing us and saying hey , I don 't want that going next to me and
that 's real valid because again , you look at the problems of smell and
sight and that 's , I don 't think that 's the intent of what we want a
beachlot to be . '
Emmings: I 'd move that we table this and try , I think it 's worth persuing
and I think we ought to work some more on drafting it a little bit . I 'd II
like to take a shot at it . At drafting something .
Krauss: One note of caution though . I always preface this by saying I 'm
not an attorney , especially when I 'm confronted by 3 of them . We can 't
write an ordinance that says if you do x through z you 're entitled to
something unless somebody objects .
Emmings: Well , but we could require them to secure the consent or not have'
it . That could be a requirement . If what you 're saying is right , then we
could require consent .
l
Batzli : I guess I would be more in favor that it would be revocable by the
city if either safety or environmental concerns over the toilet arose .
I don 't know that I want to preface their right to continue using the toile'
on a neighbor .
Emmings: Once it 's granted . '
Ahrens: I agree because in that situation where, like you said there was a
beachlot that 's only 25 feet wide or something and nobody can see it on
either side but what if they complain anyway?
Krauss: Right . With conditional uses you 're talking about a class of uses
that are considered extraordinary and potentially obnoxious but if they
meet criteria that you 've established , then you 're committing yourselves toll
say okay . I mean it met the criteria , it 's fine with us . One of the
things you also have to recognize though is you 're not , when you 're
reviewing CUP 's you 're not limited to those 4 or 5 criteria that we came up,
with or Steve , what you 'll come up with . There 's the 8 or 10 , whatever it
is , Mom and Apple Pie CUP conditions that preface that section and they
11
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 20
give you a great deal of latitude .
Conrad: But it 's also the intent statement . You know what we 've got to do
is be able to do a good job of helping staff or helping neighbors
understand what the point is . That 's why Steve 's introduction of what
' we 're trying to accomplish is very important because what I don't want to
do is lead somebody down the pike and say hey , you might be able to get
this . Or it is yours for sure . They have to know the intent for what
II we 're trying to do and when you 're controlling smells and stuff like this ,
it 's a bigger deal . I think you all have to put yourself in the position
of being next to one and say okay , how would I want to be guarded. How
I should the City guard me and I think there 's ways to do it . I 'm not sure
what the words are . There 's a motion to table . Is there a second?
' Batzli : Second .
Emmings moved, Batzli seconded to table action on Zoning Ordinance
Amendment to amend Section 20-263(2), Recreational Beachlots to allow
I portable chemical toilets on recreational beachlots for further study. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
1 Conrad: We appreciate you coming in . I said a lot of negative things but
trying to make sure we get the right thing there . It 's not just yours it
applies to everybody .
IIEmmings: We 've got time to work on it before next spring too .
Conrad: Yeah , but we appreciate you coming in and talking to us and
I listening to what we have to say and maybe we can call upon you to help us
as we draft something .
IPUBLIC HEARING:
ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTIONS 20-695, 20-715, 20-735,
I 20-755, 20-774 , 20-795 AND 20-815 CONCERNING ALL COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL
DISTRICTS TO INCREASE FLEXIBILITY IN ESTABLISHING PARKING SETBACKS BY
ADOPTING A PERFORMANCE ORIENTED APPROACH TO STANDARDS AND AN AMENDMENT TO
ESTABLISH A REQUIREMENT FOR BUFFER YARDS IN THE IOP DISTRICT.
IPaul Krauss presented the staff report on this item . Chairman Conrad
called the public hearing to order .
IIBatzli moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted
in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
' Ahrens: The buffer yards you talked about in relationship to the
comprehensive plan , is this what , the 50 foot buffer yard . Is that what we
put in?
' Krauss: 50 foot along rights-of-ways 100 foot from internal property
lines .
Ahrens: I don't have anything.
Wildermuth: It looks fine to me .
i
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 21 1
Batzli : I didn't have anything other than I was envisioning a situation I
where the public right-of-way was above the parking lot . The higher
elevation . So then 5 foot screening doesn 't do any good . What 's the
point?
Krauss: If you can't achieve it , you're going to have a 30 foot setback .
Batzli : You could achieve the 5 foot high screening but you 're not doing
any good .
Olsen: At least 5 feet .
Krauss: That 's true . I would perceive that to be a loophole .
Ahrens : But if the highway 's above a parking lot anyway , 30 feet won 't do I
that much good either .
Wildermuth: It 's almost a moot point .
Ahrens: Yeah . Whether it 's 10 or 30 , it doesn 't make much of a
difference .
Batzli : Can 't you get closer anyway even though you 're not screened at
all? Well , it true that you 're not probably worsening the affect of
getting closer to the highway . Is that what you mean? '
Ahrens: Right .
Krauss: Also , I wonder where that 's going to occur . Unless you 're near
the TH 5 overpass .
Batzli : Yeah . Well that 's where I was thinking .
I
Krauss: If you 're that close to right-of-way .
Batzli : How about into the industrial office park to the south there along'
TH 5 . Isn 't that down lower a little bit there?
Olsen: Burdick's property? '
Batzli : Yeah. I don 't know. I was just envisioning areas where this
might occur and do we care if you only have a 5 foot high screen .
Krauss: But in exchange , well what you are getting is you're getting a
much more intensively landscaped area . Is the trade-off for that
worthwhile?
Batzli : I guess I was thinking , should we have language that talks about
that situation? Do we care?
Emmings: Brian , maybe I 'm misreading this but to me this says that you can
reduce it to 10 feet . Is that the part you 're talking about? That first II
paragraph there?
Batzli : Yeah . '
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 22
Emmings: You reduce the setback to 10 feet . If you demonstrate to the
satisfaction of the City that 100% screening is provided at least 5 feet
above the adjacent parking lot . Those are the words. Now it says , you 've
got to have at least 5 feet of screening . It doesn 't say the stuff has to
' be 5 feet high . You 've got to have 5 feet of screening so it may be that
the stuff has to be 10 feet high or whatever . 5o maybe it 's not a problem .
' Batzli : I don 't know . I only had 30 seconds to look at it . It wasn 't in
my packet but I guess I didn 't get the plain meaning out of it the way you
understand it but in any event . I was going to ask something else but I
can 't remember now .
' Conrad: If it comes to you .
•
Batzli : I 'll let you know .
Emmings: On the buffer yards it says that we 're going to do this where
' higher intensity uses interface with low density residential neighborhoods .
My question is , how about a high intensity use next to a medium density
residential neighborhood?
' Krauss: The only place this will be employed is where it 's so designated
on the official comprehensive plan . The only places that occur is on the
official comprehensive plan is where you have that interface between IOP
' and some commercial and low density residential .
Emmings: Okay , that 's the only place we 've put it now . Would it be better
in terms of planning for the future just to say that buffer yards are to be
' established in areas where higher intensity uses interface with lower
intensity uses?
' Krauss: That would give you some flexibility to amend the plan to that .
Emmings: I think we should do that .
' Ahrens: I like that .
Emmings: Then in the next paragraph under C , and this is just minor but
the buffer yard is an additional setback requirement . It is to be
cumulatively calculated with , and then I 'd take out "the" and put in "any
other " required setbacks period . It says setbacks outlined above and they
may be above . They may be below . They may be who knows where .
Krauss: Oh , actually , well if you had the whole ordinance in front of you ,
' they do occur above .
Emmings: I don 't . Okay . Why don 't you just say any other required
setbacks . Just again , make it easier . Then on the next page , the last
' paragraph in that same section where right above the big letter C . I had
trouble reading this . It says , in instances where existing topography
and/or vegetation provide buffering satisfactory to the City , or where , in
combination with quality site planning this is achieved. What is achieved?
Krauss: A buffer satisfactory to the City .
11
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 23
Emmings: I thought you meant there , or where this is achieved through
quality site planning . But maybe , and it didn 't seem the same to me but I
don 't know . Is this clear to you? Maybe it 's just me .
Conrad: That 's kind of foggy . Would you think it would be clear if we
said or where this is achieved through quality site planning?
Krauss: Sure .
Emmings: I don 't know if that 's clear or not . It was clearer to me but I
don 't know if it 's clearer to everybody. Then in (e ) down there , again
there 's that interface with low density residential neighbors . I 'd just I
say lower density uses . Fourth line down . And then that first indented
paragraph again just change , in the third line down just change "the" to
"any other " required setbacks period . It 's the same change . And then in 1
the very last paragraph above where it says Section 2 . That 's the same
language again and I 'd just change it so it says , where this is achieved
through quality site planning . That 's all . Otherwise it seems like a goo
idea .
Conrad: Are sidewalks always on the public right-of-way?
Krauss: Yes .
Conrad: So if there was a sidewalk that had to be in the front yard , then
we really couldn 't , more than likely we couldn 't do this in terms of a
performance standard?
Krauss: No , you might be able to . You might not get the full benefit of al
20 foot reduction . You might get a 10 foot reduction .
Conrad: What do you expect these reduced front yard setbacks to look like?,
Berms?
Krauss: Heavily landscaped berms . Often times in 10 feet , the only way to,
achieve that is .
Conrad: 10 feet is just nothing .
Krauss: The only way to do that though is the way that Redmond did it
which is come up with a 2: 1 or 3: 1 slope externally . Tie it into a
retaining wall on the back side so the cars park into a retaining wall and I
then heavily plant on it . You can do a pretty effective job .
Conrad: But externally we 're not talking about timbers are we? Would we
allow timbers?
Krauss: No, internally .
Conrad: Yeah , internally that 's okay but externally . Externally we 're not'
talking about superficial . Well is it possible that we could be talking
about landscaping timbers on the outside?
Krauss: Well it might not be . I mean I can envision a situation where you
take like the keystone block that a lot of people are using now and you
11
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7, 1990 - Page 24
have a meandering stone wall on the outside to give you some height and
' then you plant on that . That can be very attractive . What I didn 't want
happening was a fencing but it 's a site plan. You have a lot of latitude
to pick and choose and tell them how to operate that so .
' Conrad: So what are we trying to achieve? Are we trying to simply screen
the parking lot?
' Krauss: You 're trying to screen the direct head-on exposure of the cars
that would otherwise be intrusive .
' Conrad: And have we gained, for sure the applicant who is trying to meet
this performance standard , they will gain some property use and the city
has gained what? Or maintained what? We have maintained the screening of
the parking lot?
Krauss: Or provided it . I mean there are some parking lots where , well we
have a 3 foot , what is it 3 foot , 2 foot berm requirement . When you 've got
' a 2 foot berm and tree every 40 feet and a 30 foot setback you meet the
ordinance right now . I think in exchange for that latitude you 're getting
the ability to demand a much higher quality buffering treatment .
' Conrad: Is that true?
' Wildermuth: I think you 're still getting an environmental amenity .
Conrad: Picture Redmond and how nice that front yard looked , and I think
they 're going to do a nice job. I think they 're a good .
' Krauss: We have documentation with Redmond that shows from how we
perceived it on the outside , it 's not going to change . It 's only
' internally that you 'll notice it .
Conrad: See I 'm not too worried about them . I like what I saw and I like
performance stuff . I think the more performance things . If you have an
' intent of what you 're trying to maintain , then I really like the
performance type of standards that we 're doing here . Try to challenge and
think of where we 'll be beat and won 't maintain the appearance and that 's
why I get a little bit , you know railroad ties kind of , could achieve
something but I 'm not sure that that 's what we 're looking for but what we
again in this , the intent statement for allowing this is really , it 's
I really not there . Now basically an intent statement here is screening and
I don 't know that we always put intent statements in everything we do . It
seems like that 's sort of a formula approach but on the other hand when I
see somebody coming down the pike who wants to take advantage of this , I
' want to say well here 's what we 're trying to do and right now what we 're
trying to do is screen the cars and is everybody comfortable with screening
the cars .
' Wildermuth: I guess I don 't feel in most cases that passionate that they
have to be screened .
' Ahrens: I think on a public right-of-way I don 't feel that it 's that big a
deal either . That they be completely screened .
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 25
Wildermuth: I guess that 's why I don 't have an objection to reducing this
to 10 feet . •
Batzli : But see I think the setback serves a purpose in that parking back
to open spaces and things . This provides some green even though the cars I
aren't screened . It provides an area that breaks up the landscape .
Provides more percentage non-impervious , etc , etc and so in exchange for
reducing that , I think we should get something in return .
Conrad: Yeah , I agree . I don 't know. that we 're getting back what we 're
giving up . And my perspective has always been in these particular
districts , there 's some nice . We really do have some nice commercial ,
industrial areas . It 's just really pretty and part of that is because
we 've got that 70/30 standard . Because we work in some grass . We 've got
some trees and if this makes our industrial park areas look really nice . I
Krauss: We wouldn 't be changing that standard at all . We would still
maintain that 70/30 .
Conrad: The 70/30 .
Batzli : But it would be in a different part . What you talked about . . .
Krauss : Frankly that oftentimes allows you to demand a better quality open
space . A lot of projects come to us and by the time the meet setback II standards , they 're provided the 30% open space. I think that 's not open
space . That 's just a little grassy strip along the tar . I would much
rather be able to say , if you 've only got the 10 feet here , that 30% chunk
of your 5 acre site is going to be a legitimate open area someplace on your
property . Redmond by the way , it 's kind of a related issue , Redmond meets
that 70/30 standard which they were required to meet is buying the 1 .6 acre
wetland from the City . They won 't be able to touch the wetland at all . I
mean it 's going to look exactly the way it does right now, which by the way'
I think we 've agreed to a selling price of about $88 ,000 .00 .
Conrad: And where does the $88 ,000 .00 go? '
Krauss: That 's the $64 ,000 .00 question . Nobody knows .
Conrad: The money should go back into wetland improvements and all that ,
kind of stuff . I 'm sure it 's not going there .
Wildermuth: General fund . ,
Conrad: Which defeats the intent . Totally defeats the intent .
Krauss: We talked about that quite a bit at the Council . We're not losing!'
a wetland though . I mean the original .
Conrad: We never were . 1
Krauss: But the original proposal deposited by Redmond and their
development group was that they gave us a case in Lakeville where they were,
going to destroy a wetland and the Army Corps of Engineers allowed them to
buy a wetland 30 miles away and improve it in exchange for the loss . I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 26
mean that 's a no net loss type approach . We 're not losing anything in the
' sense . We 're gaining $88 ,000 .00 . I don 't know what the Council 's going to
do with it . I brought forward suggestions that they use it for that as
well but I 'm just not certain yet .
' Conrad: We understand why they wouldn 't but .
Batzli : Have we , kind of a related issue , originally Redmond was arguing
' that they owned the strip between the frontage road and the highway and
that should be included in their percent non-impervious . In a situation
like that , have we handled that as far as , would that have been included
and that type of thing in their percentage calculations?
Krauss: It 's covered by right-of-way easements. Now I don't know that we
have specific language that prohibits the inclusion of right-of-way covered
land in those calculations .
Batzli : I know that you guys argued that policy wise and whatever but you
' couldn 't ever put your finger on anything .
Krauss: t.Jell if you 're leading up to maybe we should look at inserting
that in the ordinance someplace in that calculation , it may not be a bad
idea and I think a blanket statement needs to be made in there that we
don 't compute that acreage or that area for setback purposes either .
Conrad: We 'd better get back on task here . So , the front yard setback in
these districts , because some of us don 't feel that they 're important at
all . I 'm trying to figure this out . I 'm being a little bit facetious .
I Your position really is that we 're not giving much away so we don 't really
need to demand much .
Wildermuth: Right . And this is valuable property we 're talking about in
these business neighborhoods . You know business highway . Business general
districts . And reasonably intense use compared to IOP.
1 Conrad: Yeah . Well IOP is here . This applies to IOP .
Wildermuth: The buffer areas do but .
' Emmings: A does too .
IIConrad: IOP 'stimulated it . This applies to everything .
Wildermuth : That 's true . So here 's what you 've got . You can have a
situation . Now staff has control on some of this stuff but we 're not
giving them any guidance here . It 's going to be up to them when an issue
comes in. I 'm just challenging our thinking of what we want . What the
standards are that we 're looking for . We literally could have on either
side of Redmond you could have people living within that 30 foot setback .
Living with it with green space and then there 's the one where because they
can meet a performance standard and they can cut it down to 10 , have we
maintained the character of what we 're trying to maintain with front yard
setbacks? With greenery? Have we maintained it with this language? If
that 's what we 're trying to maintain . Whatever we 're trying to maintain in
these districts with setbacks , have we maintained them? That 's the only
I
•
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 27
thing I 'm challenging you all with . '
Batzli : Provided they can still meet the percent impervious , I think that
percentage impervious will , having us not be along the highway is probably
actually perhaps more beneficial , even though I like the open space even oil
the highway . If they 've got it someplace else on the lot , hopefully it 's •
not toward the most intense use which would be the thoroughfare so .
I guess I like the 30 feet but if in fact they can screen it . If we get
some berming and things that we wouldn't otherwise get , I 'm comfortable
with it .
Conrad: So how do you have better control on? Tell me again , what can yo
do in these 10 feet that we might shrink down to? We can require planting
every x number of feet . Sort of at staff discretion or whatever you feel
is appropriate , to fit in to the context of the neighborhood or the
particular business park . How do you?
Krauss: Well , we 're throwing it back into their laps . We 're saying if yo
want to get this flexibility , you 've got to demonstrate initially to our
satisfaction and to yours and to the Councils that you 've achieved the goal
of 100% opacity 5 feet above it .
Conrad: But the standard really is to screen the cars? 11
Krauss: Yeah . And I think quite conceiveably we 're going to have
commercial developers that aren 't going to want that . Well , they might
want the flexibility but they 're not going to want to exchange it for the
lack of , or for a parking lot that doesn 't look like it 's real busy and
hustling and bustling like we have a going shopping center here . You know '
Redmond I think it 's very appropriate in an industrial areas where they
don 't care you know and I think it 's going to be physically impossible for
some people to accomplish that . It 's also going to be costly .
Batzli : Well they could just put in a 5 foot berm and put a tree every 40
feet . Why would that be costly?
Krauss: Because first of all , the only way to do a 5 foot berm and tree
every 40 feet is going to be a doubled sided retaining wall and that 's
$10 .00 a foot per side and it gets very expensive . Plus you have the
authority I think in a site plan review . . .
Batzli : Okay , so they put it 15 feet back instead of 10 feet . Now what 's
the difference? You could end up with a 5 foot high berm and a tree every
40 feet .
Krauss: We don 't . We tell people what we want to have to achieve that
goal . You have latitude under the site plan review to say that 's a real
darn ugly way of achieving this and we won't accept it unless you revise it
so and so . We do that all the time .
Batzli : Yeah , I don 't know that we do it so much as you guys doing it in
advance . I mean we don 't look at berms usually and say , no you 've got to
make it a foot higher and put a tree every other .
Krauss: We do it all the time , yeah .
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 28
11
Batzli : But it is in the realm of possibility that you could end up with a
5 foot high berm with a tree every 40 feet and they '.d be within the Code
right?
Olsen: Yeah , if it 's 100% screened.
Conrad: What more would you want?
Batzli : I don 't know , a tree every 20 feet . I don't know .
Conrad: Okay . I don 't want to beat a dead horse here . I don't want to
grind us into the ground .
•
Batzli : It already is .
' Conrad: Yeah , we did it . I 'm not real comfortable but .
Emmings : I like it .
Conrad; I know you do . That 's why I 'm uncomfortable . I like the buffer
yards with Steve 's additions . Is there a motion?
•
Emmings: Well I 'll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of
the proposed ordinance amendments with the changes that we talked about , or
that I talked about or made . You know what those are don 't you?
1 Conrad: We don 't but that 's okay . No , we do . Is there a second?
Wildermuth: Second .
Conrad: Any discussion? How are you going to vote Brian? You can 't tell
' me so we don 't have any discussion on that . I can 't figure out any other
standards that I 'd like to put in here . I guess my only concern was
wording beyond the effect of screening . I think aesthetics has something
to do with what we 're trying to maintain.
' Batzli : I think so too but then I think you get into the intent statement
that you kind of ran up the flag pole and nobody really swallowed it .
Conrad: Nobody really jumped on it , no .
Batzli : Because Steve felt comfortable so he had drafted an intent
statement .
Conrad: There are some on this commission who don 't care .
Batzli : And there 's one that didn 't have the packet in advance so I can 't
help you .
Emmings: Why don 't we put something in there about , in 1( a ) why don 't we
put something in there about our intent? It 's not too late to do that .
Conrad: I floated that and nobody .
Emmings: But you have a chance that we could amend it .
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 29
Wildermuth: The motion has been made and seconded .
Batzli : But we 're discussing it .
Emmings: This is a discussion . I can make an amendment if I want to .
Anybody can . I can move to amend my own motion. What could we say in
there so? So basically what you 're saying is , and we don 't want them just
to think of blocking our vision. We also want them to think in terms of
what?
Conrad: Aesthetics . The aesthetics .
Emmings: Too late . I
Conrad: I know . It 's tough. '
Wildermuth: The problem is you can 't anticipate every situation that
you 're going to come by . . .
Batzli : I view the intent statement , if in fact there was one , that we 're II
giving up open space and allowing them to do this in exchange for some sort
of trade off in additional screening , vegetation , that type of thing .
I mean I think that should be the intent . Now how you say that , because II
really I don 't think you can say so that it 's aesthetically pleasing . What
you want though in exchange is .
Wildermuth: Additional landscaping .
Batzli : Yeah . I
Wildermuth: And plantings . . .
Batzli : Then . . .would be required , yeah . 1
Emmings: Why can 't we say that it 's got to be aesthetically acceptable?
Why couldn 't we say something like you said? Say something like the City
is willing to relax it 's setback requirements provided that a person can
show screening which is both effective and aesthetically acceptable to the
city? Now I don't know that , it 's a little vague but . I
Batzli : It 's darn vague .
Emmings: Well , but I don't know that you can't do that because we 're I
giving , the lynch pin it seems to me Brian is your idea that we 're giving
up something and so we get something back . We get to determine whether or
not it 's good enough . I
Ahrens: Why don't you just , in A( e ) . Is that A( e )?
Emmings: Yeah .
Ahrens: The second to the last sentence, acceptable screening is to be
comprised of berming and landscaping . Do we just add maybe a couple of
words onto that sentence . . .acceptable screening?
I
11
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 30
Emmings: But I think contained in the notion that Brian brought up about
the fact that the City is relaxing a requirement and. intends to get back .
Wildermuth: . . .quality .
' Emmings: Right . Which is both effective and aesthetically .
Wildermuth: I don 't know if we want to say relax the requirement . Say
we 're willing to trade off .
Emmings: Well okay .
' Krauss: I wouldn 't have a problem with the intent statement as drafted . It
is vague . I love vague statements . Our City Attorney hates them . We 'll
have a tug of war over that but I think , you know you are trading something
and you should have the latitude to be more demanding .
Emmings: Right . To me that 's totally different than saying a house is a
IIpermitted use but it 's got to be a pretty house . That means nothing .
Krauss: You can say if you don 't like it , go with the 30 foot setback .
' That 's what everybody else has to go with .
Emmings: Exactly .
' Conrad: Do we need to word anything?
Krauss: I don 't know . If we just incorporate Steve 's language . If the
' motion 's amended to do that I think we 're okay .
Ahrens: What language was that?
' Conrad: We 're not sure . Aesthetically pleasing was in there .
' Emmings: Except Jim didn 't like part of it so maybe we could come up with
something that .
Wildermuth: The City 's willing to trade off a reduction in the setback or
what?
Emmings: Well , we'll say the intent of this section is that the City is
willing to trade a smaller setback for screening that is both effective and
of high quality aesthetically? Something like that .
Batzli : I would say additional landscaping .
' Emmings: Yeah . Put that in there too. I 'm going to move to amend my own
motion with that language .
Conrad: Is there a second?
Ahrens: Second .
Emmings: We 've got to vote on that first don 't we? The amendment?
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 31 1
Conrad: Well I 'm not sure .
Batzli : Unless it 's a friendly amendment and the second will accept it .
Emmings: Okay . I made it myself . I 'm not mad at myself . ,
Conrad: Okay, I 'm going to call a question.
Emmings moved, Wildermuth seconded to approve Zoning Ordinance Amendment to,
amend Sections 20-504, 20-695, 20-715, 20-735, 20-755, 20-774, and 20-815
regarding parking setbacks and buffer yards amending the staff report as
follows: To include an intent statement which reads, the intent of this
section is that the City is willing to trade a smaller setback for
additional landscaping that is both effective and of high quality
aesthetically. And changing the phrases in B(c) and C(e) by deleting the ji
phrase "interface with low density residential neighborhoods" and replacin
it with 'interface with lower density uses. " and changing the sentence, "It
is to be cumulatively calculated with the required setbacks outlined
above. " to read, "It is to be cumulatively calculated with any other
required setbacks. " Also changing the first sentence in the last paragraph
of item B( c ) to read as follows, 'in instances where existing topography
and/or vegetation provide buffering satisfactory to the City, or where
quality site planning achieved, " . All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
1
FINAL STUDY REPORT FOR PARK AND RIDE FACILITIES IN THE CITIES OF CHASKA,
CHANHASSEN AND EDEN PRAIRIE , SOUTHWEST METRO TRANSIT COMMISSION.
Paul Krauss presented the staff report on this item and Fred Hoisington was
present to answer questions .
Conrad: Anybody have questions?
Emmings: I 'm going to confess that I didn 't have time to read this and I 'mt
abstaining from any vote .
Wildermuth: The only comment that I have is when I look at the prototype
site plans , it seems as though there could be a little more efficient use
of the bus loading area and that seems like that could be accomplished by
trunkating a corner . Having a special bus lane cutting a corner off as
opposed to coming into a parking lot and having a big sweeping area that it
turns around in . It would take less parking space for the bus to stop and
load.
Krauss: This is the prototype plan? '
Wildermuth: The prototype plans are in the back .
Krauss: Yeah . Well the prototype isn't , they've got anew depign that
they 're basically using for our specific circumstance anyway because it has
to be designed to fit that site . ,
Wildermuth: It just seems like coming and trunkating a corner would be a
much more efficient way to go .
•
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 32
Batzli : I had a question for Fred which was kind of a general question and
that is , how has the study taken into account the proposed light rail and
where the bus facilities would be in connection with- those?
' Fred Hoisington: Brian , when we first began this study and one of the
things we did was try to help the commission understand how all of these
things would tie together and we did a lot of diagraming and so forth at
that time to do so and we had some , I don 't even know if it was in the
draft . I think it was in the draft report and it is not in this final
report but some serious criticism of the location of LRT in the southwest
corridor . I have some real reservations about using the railroad right-of-
way , at least until after it leaves the Eden Prairie Center area . Now to
get to Chaska it probably will have to use the right-of-way but that entire
system is built on maximizing or minimizing cost by using railroad rights-
, of-way and frankly we don 't think it will work . A lot of the language that
we had in there , the Commission eliminated from the report feeling that
while we should throw up a red flag , we shouldn 't go so far as to suggest
' that they completely throw their plan away . So what we ended up with was
just a set of criteria that said when light rail is ready to be located in
the southwest corridor , please consider these 5 things and don 't be limited
only to railroad rights-of-way . Now the reason we think that light rail
' and that the station , the LRT station ought to be at Eden Prairie Center
and we understand there are some real economic problems with that , is
because all of the systems interface at that point . All of the
' intechanging would occur there . All the multi-purpose trips would start
and end there . Shopping trips . Commuting trips and so forth and that 's
why we 're as concerned as we are about where Hennepin County is proposing
to put it . So all I can tell you is we have great reservations and we 've
' tried to -leave enough in there to encourage the looking at alternatives but
there was some feeling that maybe we could live with that alignment . I
don 't agree with that .
' Batzli : But when that happens , I get the impression from hearing comments
by the various commissioners basically in charge in Hennepin County that
' it 's going to come down that abandoned rail line . I mean we 're not going
to have a choice of where it enters kind of our jurisdiction it seems .
Wildermuth: It 's just going to enter the very southern part of Chanhassen .
Batzli : Yeah .
' Krauss: Well I think you have to realize though that we 're talking about
the third phase after a 20 year time horizon at this point that they're
looking at . I mean they have some alignments that they own now and clearly
' they 're looking at using those but they haven't done any real specific
studies for ridership , utilization, station location, anything .else they
would have to do when it becomes more of a reality and they may decide to
change their mind .
' Batzli : I guess from my perspective I don 't think it 's really going to be
20 years . I think LRT is going to be accelerated greatly probably in the
next couple years but that 's just perhaps a personal opinion but I think
that as gasoline gets very scarce potentially in the near future , there 's
going to be incredible demand for advance mass transit .
11
I
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 33 1
Fred Hoisington: Brian , I think maybe you 're correct . Maybe not 2 or 3
years but with , I think we 'll see it in Hopkins sooner than the plan calls
for . I think beyond Hopkins there are real questions and I think you 're
right . The County and I think John Derris fully expects that that
right-of-way is where it 's going to go and it probably will . I guess all II
we 're trying to tell you in this report is don 't close the door on other
options and Hennepin County don 't close the door on other options because
we think they ought to look at other things . In terms of ridership , we
think there are much better locations for it .
Ahrens: There are other railroad lines aren 't there?
Fred Hoisington: The only one that would go to Chaska , through Chaska
would be this particular line . There is one of course , the one that runs
through here but then runs north of Chaska . Actually north of Jonathan
which would probably , it might be as good but at this point Joan they 're II
not looking at that as an atlernative . They really had two alternatives .
One was into Minnetonka and the Minnetonkaees don 't like light rail so it '
not going to be there apparently and the other one is this one and this is
the preferred apparently . And this one is owned and the Soo Line is not .
The Soo Line is going to continue to have rail traffic on it so there will
be no ability really to put it through here . So it 's going to go on that 1
line if it 's going to go on existing rail lines , that 's where it will go .
Ahrens: Why do they want to run it to Chaska anyway?
Fred Hoisington: Well I think Paul is exactly correct . If they do get to
Hopkins in the fairly near term , I would question whether they 'll ever go
to Chaska . I really wonder but I could see very easily them coming to Eder,'
Prairie Center and perhaps never extending beyond that but if they do , if
they still want to get over the railroad line and get to Chaska , then
perhaps that 's a good solution but at least for a stretch it makes no sense,
to me that they would use the rail line for that purpose .
Krauss : I think it 's significant to realize that none of the light rail
systems that have been built in the last 20 years serve communities that
have 12 ,000 people in them . They don't terminate in communities like ours .
Now when in 10 to 12 years from now when we 're looking at a population of
20 ,000 or 25 ,000 with considerable growth, if it happens in Waconia with II
TH 5 being a commuter route , depending on how things materialize that way ,
it may become feasible but you really need an intensity of , or density of
population that we 're probably never going to have out here . '
Conrad: What 's the difference between what we reviewed on August 1st and
what was distributed tonight in our packet? Fred's report .
Fred Hoisington: Ladd , there have been some minor changes . It's been so
long since we made those. The changes that were made had to do with the
comments that were made by each of the city staff 's and to a great extent II
what we did was tone down the TDM portion of the report and made it clear
that this is illustrative and not intended to be adopted lock , stock and
barrel by the cities . So what we did was simply made it optional so the
report is if you adopt it or accept it and send it onto the Council , you 're
not saying that you will adopt a TDM element . Although we still would
strongly recommend , as I indicated to you when I was here in August , that
1
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 34
you at least have some policies in your comprehensive plan to deal with
that . And I know you 've already adopted , I don 't know if you have any or
not but even if it 's nothing more than a philosophy , you ought to have
something . But that 's how we 've toned it down at this point .
Conrad: Anything else? Okay , thanks Fred.
Batzli : Do we need a motion to send this on?
Krauss: I guess . I 'm not sure of the structure but have a motion to
accept , recommend that the Council accept the Southwest Metro report .
Batzli : I move that the Planning Commission adopt the final draft of the
Park and Ride Study by the Southwest Metro Transit contained in our packet
dated November 1st . Do you want us to include your comments addressing the
study?
Krauss: Please .
Batzli : Including the comments addressing the study as noted in the memo
dated August 21 , 1990 by the Planning Director .
Conrad: Is there a second?
Wildermuth : Second .
Batzli moved, Wildermuth seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
that the City Council adopt the final draft of the Park and Ride Study by
the Southwest Metro Transit with the comments noted in the memo dated
August 21 , 1990 by the Planning Director . All voted in favor except
Emmings and Conrad who abstained and the motion carried_
Wildermuth : Why is everybody abstaining?
Conrad: I didn 't get a copy of the report so I don 't know . I was
comfortable when we talked about it before and I was comfortable
with Paul 's comments but I didn 't have a report to apply them to .
Fred Hoisington: I just want you to know that we were comfortable
with Paul 's comments too . Other than we feel very strongly about the
importance of transit . You 're going to see a great deal more of it and
it 's going to come faster than any of us can imagine .
Conrad: The economics are there huh?
Fred Hoisington: Not yet . But they may well be there soon. Thank you .
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Emmings: We go that memo that we don't have to approve them anymore .
Conrad: Yeah , we don 't have to approve them .
Emmings: You just have to say .
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Planning Commission Meeting
November 7 , 1990 - Page 37
Conrad: I think they did .
Emmings: They did me because it was all new .
Olsen: But when you reapplied they didn't?
Conrad: I think they did. In fact I do like that idea . I think that 's
really a good exercise . If they have some . I just think that 's a good I
exercise . It takes the burden off the peers and puts it onto the people
who do the appointing and I think that 's really appropriate . That 's not to
get out of a burden but the fact of the matter is , it 's real difficult to
be real honest with peers and to do something that might be negative but
I think it 's real appropriate that the City Council review people that have
been here . Okay , so I 'll call Annette . I 'll call Don . We 'll figure that
out and if that goes , if Annette is for sure not going to apply , then we 'll
bring in anybody who wants to talk to us for an interview .
Ahrens: Paul , can you tell us again when our meetings are? I lost the
letter you sent out . In December . Did you say the meetings? 1
Olsen: There 's just one .
Emmings : It 's right on here . December 12th .
Ahrens: Oh , okay .
Krauss: Well actually I should also tell you though that I want to
schedule a meeting for the City Council to recieve and hopefully act on the
Comprehensive Plan before the end of the year . I was talking to the Mayor I
this morning . It 's probably going to have to be done on a special meeting
basis because there is a potential that we still may have considerable
numbers of people showing up . I think the way that that should be handled
is that you need to be there to present the plan to the Council basically .
Here 's the work we 've completed . We 're here to answer questions . I 'll
certainly be there but you know , you 've put 2 years of effort into this I
document and I think it warrants out of the extraordinary that 's not just
me carrying forward your recommendations but being there in body as well as
spirit . So I don 't know of the exact date for that but we're working on
getting all these dates shaken out this week so we can tell you very soon . 1
Emmings: I think it makes sense for as many of us to be there as we can
be .
Conrad: Okay . We 're back on staff report . Paul , item number 7 .
Krauss: Yes . I told you Ladd at the last meeting about the rural area
policies that they 're changing their perspective. The Metro Council . We
are working up a written response to the Metro Council and we 're also
working a response through our Southwest Communities Coalition . Basically
we 're supportive of the fact that the Metro Council is indicating
flexibility which is something they rarely do . I 'm not sure their
flexibility is well focused at this point . I 'm not certain that at this
point they 've dealt well enough . They 've come up with an idea called
transition area . That 's great . I mean we certainly are on the cusp of a
transition . I mean we are a transitionary outside the MUSA line as are
I
Planning Commission Meeting
11 November 7 , 1990 - Page 38
many of the third and fourth ring communities but they don 't talk about
what that transition area is supposed to be very much And they don 't deal
with conflicts that say that you can't build a 4 lane highway through a
transition area even if the traffic warrants it because Chaska 's on the
other side . They 've created transition areas and now I think they have to
deal with it so we 're asking them to confront those sorts of things . I
will keep you informed of that and I think it's going to lead into some of
' the work tasks that we want to undertake . I know Tim has periodically
talked about the minimum 2 1/2 acre lot sizes in the rural areas . I think
we 've seen , whether or not it 's a lifestyle we concur with or not , how much
of a problem those subdivisions are to develop around and it may well
behoove us to allow lot sizes down to 1 acre if you can accommodate the on
site sewer so they get that same number of houses . It 's just compressed
into a much more manageable area . But we 'll be bringing this forward to
you in probably the next month or two when we see how this shakes out .
Conrad: Good . Anything Paul under Ongoing Items?
' Krauss: No .
Conrad: Adminstrative Approvals? Open Discussion? I think Erhart is not
' here so we won 't have his favorite . We 'll wait for Tim to show . We talked
about applications for the Planning Commission . Anything else?
' Batzli : Yeah , is our fees in lieu of parkland ordinance valid still?
Krauss: Well , I think it is but I wanted that td go also to the Park Board
' and have them evaluate it . Sometimes the way in which it 's calculated
leaves us open I think to contested situations but we 've been consistent at
any rate . The policy is fairly well established . In fact frankly , either
we 've been doing something that 's innovative in Minnesota for the last 15
' years because nobody else is doing it or the rest of the country 's way
behind us because basically that 's the way Minnesota communities do it .
' Batzli : I noted the new status , I think it 's new , of the rezoning the BE
district to A-2 on our status sheet . It 's now scheduled .
Conrad: Anything else?
' Emmings moved, Batzli seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:00 p.m. .
Submitted by Paul Krauss
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
1
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I
1
C
NED1TED
HANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
OCTOBER 23, 1990
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:34 p.m. .
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Wendy Pemrick, Curt Robinson, and Jan Lash
MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Andrews, Larry Schroers and Dawne Erhart
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor and Jerry Ruegemer ,
Program Specialist
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved, Mady seconded to approve the Minutes
of the September 25 , 1990 Park and Recreation Commission meeting amended by
Jan Lash and Jim Mady as follows: On page 6 under Todd Hoffman 's comments ,
changing $6 ,000 .00 to $40,000 .00 and on page 22 under Jan Lash's comments ,
changing "Todd 's making" to "Todd's taking" and changing "sloshing the
pans" to "slapping his hands" . On page 8 Jim Mady wanted to clarify the
motion on handicap access . Whether the amount should be $6 ,000.00 or
$5 ,898.00 . Todd Hoffman stated that the $6 ,000 .00 figure was just the
rounded up number . All voted in favor of the Minutes as amended and the
motion carried .
1990 LAKE ANN REVENUE REPORT AND 1990 LOTUS LAKE BOAT ACCESS USER REPORT.
Ruegemer : This report was just put together to kind of show the background
information and tie together everything that went on down at Lake Ann this
summer . Just give you some figures as far as picnics and people attending
those picnics and daily and seasonal and non-resident passes sold for the
summer of 1990 . Just to start out with the picnics, the total of 24
picnics were held out , just company picnics this summer out at Lake Ann
with approximately 2,250 attending those picnis . The companies are in
alphabetical order and behind that , behind the company is the approximate
' number of people that attended the picnic. On the second page it 's just a
continuation of the companies and the number of people . Also there 's a
special interest group . These were just groups that came in to attend
' picnics like from the Middle School and the Cub Scouts and also from
softball . Different softball tournaments that came in. Various churches
came in and sponsored tournaments over the weekends throughout the summer
and that just is also grouped in alphabetical order and the approximate
number of people that participated in those picnic and softball tournaments
and so forth. Just below that is just the communities where the different
companies and special interest groups came from. There's a wide variety
from around this western and Twin City area . Below that is just the number
of passes sold at Lake Ann for the summer of 1990. The dailies, there's a
total of 2,933 . You times that by 2 and you come up with the $5,866 .00 and
seasonals total out at almost 1 ,000 with 998. Times that by 5 and you come
up with $4,990.00 . Seasonal non-resident, there 's 161 of those sold. Times
that by 10 and you come up with $1 ,610.00 with the grand total of
$12 ,466 .00 .
' Robinson:. Do we know how that compared to last year Jerry or the year
before?
Ruegemer : Last year there was around $11 ,700.00-$11 ,800.00. In that
t
r
r
i
1
1
II Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 2
IIballpark . This is before like the printing of the passes . I did not have
that here . There 's a total of seasonals , a second batch I processed ,
I there 's 1 ,200 of those ordered which was a cost of $367 .50. The first
batch that was processed there 's a total of 2 ,500 seasonals printed up and
that 's a total of $671 .00 . Through the seasonals and non-seasonal passes
there was a total of 3 ,700 passes ordered at a grand total of $1 ,038 .50 .
II In the daily passes there 's a total of 2 ,000 printed which totaled out to
be $114 .90 . Those two figures added together with the printing of the
seasonals and dailies totaled out to be $1 ,053 .40 . And there were two
companies that the seasonals were printed . By Westco Company in Eden
Prairie and the dailies were printed up by Parkside Printing in Shakopee .
II Lash: This total that you have , the $12 ,466 .00 , that 's before you added in
the softball players right?
Ruegemer : Right . That 's .
ILash: $4 ,875 .00 .
Ruegemer : That was explained further back . Something that was added to
that total .
Lash: So really our whole total then was this $17 ,341 .00 .
IIRuegemer : Minus expenditures , right .
IILash: Okay . Compared to $11 ,000.00 last year .
Ruegemer : Right .
IRobinson: So this was the first year with the softball players?
Ruegemer : Yes .
IIMady: Well we paid 2 years ago too . Last year we didn 't pay but
previously we had paid . We just handled it differently . It looks like we
IInetted about $10,000.00 then .
Lash: Wouldn 't it be more like $16,000 .00?
IIMady: If you strike out gate attendants .
Lash: Oh yeah , okay .
IRuegemer : Then just certain supplies that went out . Additional letters
and stuff . The gate attendants total out and their wages were listed on
I top of page 3 and just getting to the Lotus Lake boat access , there was a
total of 1 ,405 boats . This summer , this was taken while a gate attendant
was on duty . There was probably additional numbers that can be added onto
that when the gate attendants were not on duty with an approximate total of
II3 ,444 people using the access during gate attendance .
Robinson: I really don 't think that 's a very meaningful number .
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
October 23 , 1990 - Page 3
Hoffman: The gate attendants are probably there 25% to 40% of the time 11
which it is heavily used .
Robinson: Yeah, I mean I walked down there a lot in the evening and there I
was never a gate attendant and boats whipping in and out of there .
Ruegemer : And that changed too through the course of the summer with
different individuals terminating their work experience with the City and
we had to cut back at the Lotus gate and just add those people to the Lake
Ann gatehouse . 1
Hoffman: Curt , I think that number could probably be extrapulated out and
you could come up with a fairly . 1
Robinson: Yeah , but it could be misleading too . If somebody looks at it
and says oh , we have a total of 1 ,405 boats go down there .
Ruegemer : That 's just while the gate attendant was on duty .
Robinson: Yeah . I
Ruegemer : This just goes on at the Lotus Lake with the gate attendants
just surveying the milfoil and going through the . . .DNR , going through step
by step . Inspecting the boats and vehicles as they come through the access 11
and just basically just kind of being a role model . Just being present to
inspect the boats and that will be added again for next year 's gate
attendants . Just to get them familiar with the milfoil . Just down below II
it 's a breakdown of that total . Boat useage throughout Lotus Lake as they
entered . Just a little tidbit with the weather conditions . Average temp
and wind throughout the summer . There 's with, the increase can be
contributed to the different 4th of July celebrations . Increase in that
and with the additional softball tournaments going on . Actually the
weather probably wasn 't as nice as last summer . We had quite a few rainy
days this year so that probably could have boosted sales a little bit
possibly . Is there any questions?
Lash: For the daily passes? Why do we give them a pass? So they can go
out and come in again without having to pay?
Ruegemer : It 's just proof that they , as they enter the park they just
purchase that .
, Mady: A way of keeping of track .
Ruegemer : It 's like I say , if somebody crashes the gate and if the gate
attendant 's report that to the Carver County Sheriff and has proof that
they did pay and if somebody didn't pay , they will be escorted out . I
Lash: Okay. I just thought maybe it was unnecessary .
Mady: A question somewhat related . With the gate attendants at Lotus 1
Lake . Do they experience anything with milfoil?
Ruegemer : No they didn 't . I
11
1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 4
11 Mady: I didn't hear anything on Lotus . Now I understand that both Riley
and Minnewashta had eradication programs take place this summer . I didn 't
hear anything on Lotus . I was wondering if there was anything but
apparently not .
Ruegemer : I didn 't get any feedback .
Mady: Good .
' Robinson: Neat report . It really is . Being a bean counter , I love all
these numbers . And I guess , gee I 'd really like to seek some comparative
numbers maybe next year . In summary , not necessarily all the details but
the number of passes and the total amount of income and what not . If we
could see that from year to year it might tell us something.
Lash: Maybe even in the last 5 years or something and then show the
percentage of population growth or something .
Robinson: Yeah . But that 's a good report Jerry .
' UPDATE ON PURCHASE OF HANDICAPPED ACCESSIBLE PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT.
Hoffman: This item was reviewed at the last meeting and I had all intent
to come back for approval on this item at this meeting . However , with the
switching of the location . Instead of going to Lake Susan and switching at
' the elementary site , there was some site plan differences which called for
additional review and additional interpretation of what that dollar amount ,
what that $6 ,000.00 amount is going to buy us . At Lake Susan , if you can
' visualize the large play area which was put in there , had an enormous
border area . Plenty of room to just come in and install that $6 ,000 .00 in
handicap accessible equipment . Asphalt the trailway to it back to the
pavillion building and we 'd be in . We 'd have some dollars spent on
equipment . When I took Dave Owen from Earl F . Anderson over to the
elementary school site and we took a look at that location , the border wood
which would be necessary and then as well the pea gravel surfacing which
would be necessary would eat up a considerable cost and a considerable
amount of that $6 ,000 .00 . So what Dave is doing at the current time is
taking a look at that . Some design elements and then as well in the
meantime I had the call from a Kitty Sitter with the APT at the Chanhassen
Elementary with their , I believe she talked to Jan. Correct? With their
intent that they would be willing to help out with this program for
handicap accessible equipment and that would mean some donation of
additional dollars towards this project . So currently we 're just up in the
air on what exactly is going to happen. What the final design will be on
that equipment and as you can see by the sketches there , we have some basic
ideas but what we 'll exactly end up purchasing yet this fall and installing
in the spring is still somewhat unclear .
Lash: I guess I kind of , first of all I have one question . One time
before you made some reference to the $40 ,000 .00 maybe with some city
budget cuts and stuff maybe we would have lost some of that? Have we?
IIHoffman: No .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
October 23 , 1990 - Page 5
Lash: We haven 't? Okay . Great .
Hoffman: Well the $40 ,000 .00 was budgeted as part of last year 's capital II
improvement projects based on anticipated revenues from the building permit
fees . Now those are going to come in somewhat lower than anticipated so
each budget item could in fact , should be reduced a little bit but that
$40 ,000.00 is a large figure and certainly the majority of that would be
left there .
Lash: I guess when we talked about it at the last meeting my thought , and II
when I read the Minutes , I think it was conveyed but somewhere I guess
there was a little confusion because I had visualized this behind the
school . Not on the north end where all the pearock is . So if we were to
do this and combine this with , I mean obviously we have to wait until after
the referendum and see what we 're going to end up with up there for sure
but if we 're to combine the handicap accessible equipment with the other
project that we have got slated . I mean that would end up being more
comparable to Lake Susan wouldn 't it? I mean we'd be able to work it in
with another big project instead of having to go in where there 's already
something and take pearock out and change the border and all of that . We 'dill
have more of the $6 ,000 .00 to just use towards equipment wouldn't we?
Hoffman: In discussing this with City Planner Paul Krauss , we had to
really move forward because of the $6 ,000 .00 is only available through the II
end of the year . We had to have some type of a plan in place in order to
send that to the State people working with the Block Grant program so
waiting until November 6th and then starting design work on this huge play II
area which we might spent potentially $30 ,000.00 behind the school , working
with the school district on that program , working with the APT on that
program , would start to be a cumbersome process and probably would take us I
past the first of the year .
Lash: But I asked at the last meeting if it had to be ordered by the end
of the year and you said no because that 's what I was afraid of . Was that
we were going to have a timeline deadline there and you said there wasn't .
So are you sure that there is?
Hoffman: Yes, there is . I was mistaken. 11
Lash: Because the reason I asked that last time , I had thought well if we II
had a deadline , the thing I would like to do is go ahead with a Plan A and
a Plan B so that if we did have to move on it really fast , we 'd be able to
do that and get the order in by the end of the year .
Hoffman: Yep . The order has to be in and we should rightfully have the
equipment in our possession and in storage until the spring .
Lash: We have to have it in possession by the first of the year too? I
Hoffman: Not necessarily but it would be best.
Lash: Is that something that would be possible to do?
Hoffman: To have the Plan B put in the back of the school? I
I
1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 6
IILash: I mean I guess the Plan A and Plan B would be community center , no •
community center and then however the referendum turns out we 'd know what
to do . That would also sort of be an incentive for us to hurry up and get
going on the whole project and be able to get it in in the spring .
Hoffman: Sure . Again , the design , the timeline which it 's going to take
II to work with all those agencies in designing that , the playground behind
the school taking out I think is going to take a longer period of time . By
the time November 6th rolls around , we have one meeting the end of November
1 and then a meeting in December and to pull that all together to get a
Plan B established and order all that equipment would just be somewhat of
an aggressive time schedule I think . In speaking with Kathleen Macy , the
principle , she preferred the location on the north side of the school for
this particular piece of equipment simply because it fits in so well with
what 's there and it 's really going to finish that location out . I don 't
know what everyone 's visualization is for the playground to the west but
1 the equipment which is there is currently definitely undesireable and
getting some of the new up to date equipment in there is going to be
beneficial . I guess we 're struggling with a $6 ,000 .00 or $10 ,000 .00
project , depending on how much the APT comes up with here and just getting ,
it 's a fairly simple project to fit into one or the other . You know we ' ll
certainly do that .
1 Lash: I guess my understanding from Kitty wasn't necessarily that they 're
willing to contribute $4 ,000 .00 towards the handicap accessible . It 's
towards the whole project . Like the big scale , like if there was a big
I thing going to go in . They had on their agenda to try , I mean they have
for a couple of years , to try and get new equipment back there . She said
this year they really just , they have so many other things that they need
1 to use the money for that they sort of had put that on the back burner and
it wasn 't a high priority this year . I said well , that this was going on
and maybe it was something if we worked together on we could make it be
that much nicer if we even had a little extra funding from them and she
Isaid oh . Well we 'd be happy to do that if it will make it be a nicer
product in the end .
Hoffman: In speaking with her we went through the plan . The pulling of
the merry-go-round and the slide on the north side of the school and having
that reinstalled and putting in the new border and the pearock and at that
time she expressed that they would be willing to put forth some financial
IIcontribution to the handicapped equipment .
Lash: Okay .
Mady: Todd a question . On the handicap accessible area , you were talking
about pearock and a border . What do you put pearock in in the general
I areas and you put blacktop strip up to the individual pieces so the kids
can get up there with their wheelchairs or what?
Hoffman: Correct . Yeah , it 's pearock around the entire area and then
II there 's the concrete ramps which come into the piece of equipment with the
rubber mat overlay.
M Mady: Okay , rubber mat overlay underneath the equipment so it 's a
resilient surface for a wheelchair yet it gives a little bit if they fall
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
October 23 , 1990 - Page 7
on it . In the plan , it would be the last page , under the refurbished old
equipment you 're showing that as being pea gravel . Hopefully that 's going
to be done shortly . I believe right now it 's pretty much just all hard
sand in there .
Hoffman: Hard sand? I
Mady: A good friend of mine 's daughter broke her arm about a month ago in
that area so it 's , falling off one of the apparatus . It was a problem when
we constructed the new equipment and I guess it 's always going to be a
problem until we at least get some pea gravel in there .
Hoffman: Okay . I
Mady: Was there any action you were looking for?
Hoffman: No . Just additional comment and what has taken place and again
Dave Owen will be back with me on the design and the cost factors and I 'll
be speaking with Kitty Sitter as well again before next meeting . At that
time I 'm hopeful to bring back a plan which you'll approve of . 1
APPROVE REMOVAL• OF PORTIONS OF VITA COURSE, CITY CENTER PARK . I
Hoffman: This item is just in walking through City Center Park , it 's right
next to City Hall here . I walked through there on Friday occasions ,
whether it be lunch hour . Taking a look at the tennis courts , that type of
thing . It 's terrible . What , the Vita Course?
Lash: Yeah . I
Hoffman: Yeah . So it was installed I 'm guessing in 1984 , something of
that nature . In looking through old files I did finally find something
where it was a combined effort with the school district and the Park and II
Recreation Department . The cost to each of those agencies was
approximately $1 ,500 .00 at that time . Right now it is the case , some of
the equipment is still being used . The parallel bars , the chin up bars ,
the rings , that type of thing but the signs are kicked out . The only
markings on them are from the lawn mowers trying to mow around the things
so prior to removing this we just wanted to run it past the commission to II
make sure nobody has any heartwarming feelings about that vita course .
Just the delapitated , broken down pieces will be removed and then the
pieces which are currently being used by children and/or adults will be
left .
Lash: This is good about the basketball hoop over there . Do you need a
motion? I
Hoffman: Yes .
Lash: I 'll make a motion that you remove the unsafe and undesireable I
pieces of the Vita Course at City Center .
Robinson: I second it . I
I
11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 8
11 Lash moved, Robinson seconded to direct staff to remove the unsafe and
undesireable pieces of equipment from the Vita Course at City Center Park.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Mady: Further discussion at City Center Park equipment , while I think
about it . And I guess the whole park system . I would hope in the spring
when I would guess the City has a staff meeting of sorts with all their
maintenance , park maintenance people , especially when you bring in the new
temporaries , that they would be instructed to look for problems in the
' park . Those are safety situations should be dealt with immediately . It 's
nice to put in new equipment but if we have a problem , just like reading in
the paper yesterday or today about the bleachers at South High School and
people falling through them and they didn't do anything for months . If
there 's a safety situation that needs to be dealt with that day . If a guy
sees something , he should be talking to his supervisor and those guys all
have radios . They should be telling you guys , it should just be automatic ,
yeah pull it and then we 'll deal with it . That 's something I wanted to
mention on that . Then the tennis courts at City Center Park . At the
Oktoberfest I got a pretty good earful from someone concerning the tennis
' courts at City Center Park and the poor condition they 're in and poor Dale
Gregory just happened to be walking by just after she was there . I gave
Dale about 2 or 3 minutes on it . I guess we need to be conscience of the
1 situation . I know the frost has heaved some of those posts out and there
are some fairly severe cracks but in talking with Dale , probably the only
thing we can do is overlay that whole tennis court now . Unless something
changes , even if the community center passes , there was no plan to moving
the tennis court . That was going to stay exactly where it was . So that 's
something we should be looking at for next year maybe . This woman
commented that the City shouldn 't be looking to do any improvements if they
1 can 't take care of the things they 've got . There's somewhere the truth to
that I guess .
Hoffman: Sure . Just a note on the overlay . The last time we did have a
' contractor come out and take a look at possibly refurbishing those courts
and speaking of an entire overlay , he said you 're better off just
bulldozing the thing and starting new because if you do an overlay , your
11 cracks are already underneath there and they 'll just come back up .
Mady: Yeah , and obviously there 's the proper base that would happen with
II all the clay we have in this city , you have to go down a long ways to take
care of any of the problems of the moisture that causes in that clay with
the freeze thaw cycle .
1 Hoffman: I think Dale has caught enough of an earful on that court and
from myself as well that just keeping the weeds trimmed and just keeping it
as nice looking as possible will be about the most we can do there until .
1 Mady: Until we get some funding .
Hoffman: Yeah , some funding .
IIMady: I understood and I tried to explain that to this lady but there was
no explanation that she was going to accept short of promising that we were
1 going to put a whole new tennis court in there for $40 ,000.00 . So we try .
1
Park and Roc Commission Meeting I
October 23 , 1990 - Page 9
RECREATION PROGRAM UPDATE.
Ruegemer : Basically all this is is just kind of a rundown of what was
going on this fall as far as recreation programs . We just finished up the II
Rockin & Rollin class last Saturday and this was the first time this class
was offered and it seemed to be a real positive class where people were
real interested in and had a really good feedback about it and the price
was real affordable for people that cannot afford gymnastic classes around
this area . The Rockin & Rollin evaluation have just come back to me in theii
last couple days . I haven't had a chance to go through those yet and I
will update you on those . As far as the kids just worked on flexibility
and coordination through different somersaults and different exercises and
they also did participate on the balance beam to help try to coordinate
their balance and it really seemed beneficial for the kids that
participated in this class . A lot of parents were very interested in
seeing the possible Part 2 or an additional class of a little bit higher
skills for the kids possibly in the near future . Something that can be
addressed for possibly the spring . And the Friday Family Movies have been
going on since September . They 're going once a month on a Friday night
usually around the third week of the month . We have had two already . The II
Little Mermaid and Benji and the Hunted . The attendance has been somewhat
low . We 'd like to increase that . Maybe with the things kind of winding
down for the fall season here possibly we can get some more attendance here"
coming up the 16th of November for the next movie .
Hoffman: I think the video industry 's our demise .
Mady: Could be .
Lash: Well you know even with these other things , I think almost anything II
in September is going to be doomed to die . There is just so much going on II
in September for kids and parents going back to school that you just don 't
have time for any extras .
Robinson: And the weather is still nice outside typically .
Lash: Yeah . I almost wonder if it wouldn 't be smarter to just hold off on
some of these things until winter moves in and people are bored and all the
summer and fall sports are over .
Ruegemer : In these classes and Friday Family Movies have been advertised 1
through the local schools with flyers and posters being distributed
throughout the various schools around town . Also through the Villager and
Sailor have been little descriptions and ads run advertising for these
Friday Family Movies .
Lash: I 've never been to one. I shouldn't admit that but is it in the
gym?
Ruegemer : It 's in the Chanhassen Elementary small gym .
Lash: And then do you have?
Ruegemer : We have popcorn and pop . I
I
II Park and Roc Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 10
1 Lash: Is it a projector and a screen?
Ruegemer : Yes . It 's a regular .
Lash: Can you hear in there decently?
Ruegemer : It 's a relatively small area and we have roughly 30-40-50 chairs
set up with the large screen right in the auditorium .
Robinson: How many were there roughly?
Ruegemer : The first one was about 40-50 .
' Hoffman: We had 43 .
Lash: Well that 's a good turnout . And it 's a $1 .00 a person?
1 Ruegemer : $1 .50 .
Lash: Because you can go to Excelsior for $1 .50 .
Robinson: What 's the fee? A dollar and a half?
' Ruegemer : A dollar and a half .
Hoffman: In years past we 've tried for 100 and over and have had that many
people in the past 2 years .
Robinson: And you sell popcorn and pop?
' Hoffman: It 's a huge screen .
Robinson: Who does it , you two?
Hoffman: Basically , yeah .
Ruegemer : We did have a couple seasonals help out last time .
Hoffman: Staff and spouses .
Mady: They get free popcorn though right?
Hoffman: Sure .
' Lash: Well are you guys feeling like this is something that 's worth
continuing? I mean if it's taking up a night of your time and if we 're
11 making , you know what do we get out of it by the time you get the movie and
pay for the pop and the popcorn .
Hoffman: Yeah . In the past years it was really quite well attended . This
year we switched the months around a little bit . You get a little closer
to Christmas and they fall off . The one in January with the skating party ,
there 's 150 people there that come to that but they're coming not for the
movie and the skating party both so . Yeah , we 'll take a look at it the end
of this year and it may just not be worth taking back since the video
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23, 1990 - Page 11
market is so readily available that this is almost designed as a more of a II
social event to get out with other people and that type of thing . They can
see most of these movies at home . 1
Ruegemer : And Jan kind of hit the hammer right on the head of the nail
there with these , the next program the Dinosaurs Alive . This program was
offered September 22nd on a Saturday . It 's a program set up to visit a
dinosaurs exhibit at the Minnesota Zoo and it appeared to be a really a fun
and a good program that would be of interest to the area kids and not a
person signed up for it which is kind of shocking in a way because I
thought it would be a real good program . We could fill up a bus going down
there but I think with September being busy and everybody trying to close
up their cabins for the last time and I think people are just relatively
busy for the early fall season . So it's something that possibly could be
offered later . It possibly could be offered later . Possibly to a
different exhibit at the Omni maybe during the winter months . To kind of
target that area in Mid-February or March . It 's something that can be
looked at in the future . Then next is those A-Maize-ing Pilgrims which is II
sort of centered around the Thanksgiving theme . There are going to be
stories and crafts put together in different , try to get some traditional II
food in here for the kids to kind of get a sense of what the Pilgrims back
in the late 1400 's and early 1500 's , what types of foods and kind of give
them a little background on the culture that people had back then . It 's
set up to be a hour and a half program . Just a one day shot . It 's going I
to be Saturday , November 17th and it 's going to be right here in these
Chambers .
Robinson: Right in here? I
Lash: Like what are you going to be making?
Ruegemer : Oh just little turkeys with construction paper .
Lash: I thought it was real food . I
Ruegemer : We haven 't really decided on the craft projects yet . We 'll be
doing more further research on that . Not necessarily Tom Turkey or
anything . Just to kind of get them geared up for Thanksgiving .
Lash: So when you say traditional Pilgrim food will be available , so the
kids aren 't making it? They just get to try it?
Ruegemer: It depends how complex it 's going to be . Granted we don't have
any kitchen facilities down here to speak of . I
Hoffman: Microwave . Chris Stone , the summer playground director will be
the instructor . 1
Ruegemer : And registration is going fairly well . At this point I think we
have over 10 kids signed up with a minimum of 10 and a max of 20 so we
really haven 't advertised for it that much. Just as far as going through
the fall brochures about the extent of what , they also like a fall program
flyer that went out at the beginning of school .
I
II Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 12
11 Hoffman: If you remember the Pioneer Task Program that we worked with
Carver County Historical Society . Those types of programs , with the
pioneers or the Pilgrims , they just seem to be the thing that parents are
really intrigued with and like to sign their children up with so .
Lash: They think it 's educational .
Pemrick: Sure .
' Ruegemer : Getting to the Men 's 5 on 5 Basketball . We had the
organizational meeting the 10th of October . It looks like there 's a couple
additional teams this year from the 11 that participated in the league last
year so we 're roughly around 13 teams right now which is scheduled to start
11 the last part of November , early December . Probably go a couple weeks of
scrimmages and then start off with games the mid part of December and then
all of January , February and then start in-house and State playoffs in
March .
Robinson: That 's over at the big gym over at the school?
' Ruegemer : The games are going to be played on Wednesday nights at the
Chaska Community Center and also at the Middle School at Chaska .
' Mady: What kind of success did we have with the Chaska Park and Recreation
Department in getting a little bit better share of the school facilities?
Last I had heard that Tom wasn 't too interested in letting us have any of
the free school time . He was going to put all his park and rec programs ,
recreation programs in the school gymnasium and he was generously offering
to rent the community center to Chanhassen program . He got free use of the
' school facilities and we were going to have to pay for ours . Has that
changed?
Hoffman: No . Basically the current philosophy is all adult volleyball ,
' adult basketball , adult broomball , sports are cooperatively offered between
the cities of Chanhassen and Chaska . Chaska Park and Rec , they operate the
volleyball , the broomball . Chanhassen Park and Rec operates the Men's 5
II on 5 Basketball . So participants and teams from different companies from
both communities participate in all those sports but they all take place in
that end of town . Now a larger portion of activities will be taking place
in the Chaska Community Center so more and more we're losing a handle on .
II the sponsorship or the ownership of adult sports . You 'll see a larger
portion of adults partaking in activities sponsored by the Chaska
Department .
' Robinson: Who sponsors the adult open basketball?
IHoffman: Up here?
Robinson: Yeah , on Monday night .
IHoffman: We do .
Robinson: Do you?
I
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,
October 23 , 1990 - Page 13
Ruegemer : There has been fairly decent attendance at these . There 's
usually been 15 to 20 people each Monday night who play in the adult open
gym . It 's early in the fall yet so around when the snow flies I 'm sure
there will be quite a few more .
Robinson: I think the brochure said 18 and over or some age didn 't it?
And thanks heavens they 're letting my 16 year old in there . A number of 1611
year olds .
Ruegemer : There 's also a youth open gym offered on Saturday afternoon from"
1 :00 to 4:00 and there 's a breakdown between the younger kids and the
bigger kids . Younger have it in the early part of the afternoon from 1 :30
to 2:30 . 1
Robinson: Isn 't that up to 8th grade though?
Hoffman: Yeah up to 8th . 1
Ruegemer : Just the cost of that is 50 cents per session. I 'm sure
attendance will pick up too as the later in the fall . '
Lash: I just want to comment that I think that 's a really nice option for
kids in the winter because they really need to get out and run off some
steam on the weekends .
Robinson: And the gym sits empty there . I used to , when I ran the
basketball program have to kick people out at noon when our names got done II
and they thought that was ridiculous . Why can 't we stick around here and
shoot baskets? So that is .
Hoffman: We are lucky . We 've worked enough with the school now where I
they 're being more and more lenient with us to allow us to use our key at
our priviledge and go ahead and use the buildings so it 's something we 've
earned over the past 3 to 5 years and we just want to try to keep it .
Lash: Good .
Ruegemer : And getting into the Halloween Party , the wheels are in motion .
We 're getting supplies together . Yesterday we purchased the candy for the
Halloween party . Also today I did speak with Kathleen. . .as she is employed"
with the McGlynn 's at the pick-up center . The distribution center up in
Eden Prairie outlet and we did order the cookies today . Order 800 cookies
and McGlynn 's was gracious enough to give us a 20% discount on the bakery ,
goods so we took advantage of that . The total of the cookies totaled
$525 .00 . Volunteers . We still need volunteers in costume . Roughly 4 or 5
or 6 people we have left to do . We are getting volunteers from various
groups around the Chanhassen area . We're also getting the Chaska Honor
Society volunteered basically as many people as we need , up to say 15-20
people . They would like to get involved in more civic activities . They
did help out with the Easter Egg Hunt last spring and they would like to
just kind of , as part of their community service be involved in more
activities going on around the community . So they have volunteered to help
out in this . We still need additional volunteers if you are interested .
You can sign up with Todd or myself . Up to date , as of today we have
$651 .00 in donations from various merchants and businesses around the
I
II Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 14
11 Chanhassen area . We also received from the Chanhassen Dinner Theatres two
complimentary passes as part of the donation for the Halloween Party so we
' can raffle those off at the Halloween night . As of today 47 kids were
signed up for the Halloween party which I 'm sure we ' ll be blasted next week
with registrations coming in . Two separate flyers have gone out to the
schools advertising for the program . This was , the first one that went out
let 's say put the time on the second one going out . That went out today
and there 's also been advertising through the schools , the flyers and also
through the Villager and the Sailor .
Hoffman: You should have waited to see if they caught it Jerry .
Pemrick: I did . What time does it start?
' Ruegemer : 6:00 to 8:00 .
Lash: What kind of a turnout do you typically get for that?
Hoffman: 250 . Lots .
Lash: That 's what I 've heard .
Robinson: What does it cost you to advertise in the Sailor or the
' Villager? Very much?
Hoffman: Complimentary .
Mady: Not all ads are complimentary usually with them though are they?
Hoffman : No , ads per se are not but community service announcements . They
work with us real well .
Lash: So that 's free but we have to pay to have the agenda put in the
paper?
Hoffman: Yes .
Lash: That 's not considered a community service to let people know what 's
on the agenda?
' Hoffman: It 's official city business more or less .
Mady : That 's standard throughout the State .
' Ruegemer : This year the hayride will be put into place again and we'll be
going around City Center Park or roughly around the outside edges so it
will be a little bit of decent hayride in there so it should be fun for
everybody . Also with the additional programs that are going on at this
time in Chanhassen , we have the Kellogg 's Hot Shoes . We 're just finishing
up a session now in I think it 's October 31st is going to be the last
class . Then the second fall session is going to start around the mid part
of November . It 's just a program that 's put together to increase endurance
and flexibility and just to kind of get some exercise. To get everybody
' healthy . And Breakfast with Santa is going to be offered again this year .
Set up for Sunday , December 9th and that 's sponsored by the Chamber .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
October 23 , 1990 - Page 15
Hoffman: The Chamber , the Park and Recreation Department , the Rotary and
the Firemen .
Ruegemer : Tickets will be available soon . Winter volleyball . The ,
organizational meetings are going to be the first part of December down at
the Chaska Park and Rec Department . They 'll just go over the format and
league structure of the winter volleyball league and leagues are scheduled
to start around the first part of January and go through all the way to the
month of March . There 's also going to be adult broomball league set up
this year . That 's sponsored basically by the city of Chaska . They 've done ll
all the broomball leagues . That meeting 's going to be December 6th on a
Tuesday night down at the Chaska Park and Recreation office in their
meeting room . And Tom will also go through the league format and II information regarding that league that night . This year for next spring
there 's going to be a 3 on 3 spring outdoor basketball league at the new
basketball court at Lake Susan . It 's going to be offered to men and women ,
in the different industries around town and also open teams that want to
enter into the league . That 's going to start probably late April and go
through probably May or June . Give people just a chance to kind of . . .
( There was a tape change at this point in the meeting . )
Lash: . . .all we can to encourage that . I think that 's great .
Mady: Just think Jan if we would have done that when we were in high
school we would have known each other back then . We went to the same
school . Same class . We were in the National Honor Society . Picture in II
the year book .
Lash: He must have looked it up . I 'll bring it in next time . I
Hoffman: All this good discussion , I think we missed you on tape huh Jer?
Ruegemer : Yep . I
Lash: I think I found it out like last spring or something. I was at a
Girl Scout thing . This gal told me and I drove all the way home and looked"
it up. There 's Jim and I standing right behind me . Can you believe it?
Mady: It was a big class you know . I
Lash: Not to make any either of us sound probably nerdier than we are but
obviously he wasn 't a jock and I wasn 't a homecoming queen . ,
Mady: That about sums it up . We 'll move on.
Hoffman: We 've got to see that . Anyway , back to the tape . You 'll see
quite a span in there .
Ruegemer : It wasn 't that much . I just changed it . Maybe a minute or two . I
Lash: My speech about the kids . Encourage the big kids to do this for the
little kids .
Ruegemer : The later part of the speech is on .
I
4 Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 16
Hoffman: Jerry was more on the ball than I thought . So any other input on
programs . It seems we talk about programs maybe a couple times a year and
other than that we just try to keep our eyes out for what 's happening in
other communities and our programming base continues to expand with our
population and any other ideas or things you run across , don't hesitate to
give us a buzz .
' NATIONAL RECREATION AND PARK ASSOCIATION'S "FRIENDS OF PARK AND RECREATION
PROGRAM" .
Hoffman: Again in the daily deluge of mail this seemed to stand out as
possibly a worth while program for some citizens or board members to be
involved with . The cost is $15.00 per year to become a "Friend of the
11 National Park and Recreation Association" . What that gets the individual
is that monthly newsletter keeping them informed of what 's going on in the
local and national scene in the parks and recreation field . What it does
for the NRPA is give them another body if you will to support their
legislative action for other causes of park and recreation . I 'd like the
commission to discuss the merits of this . We would like to budget 5 of
' these positions at $75 .00 a year and who we should sign up or if we should
solicit citizens to sign up for this type of thing or how exactly you want
to approach this , if at all .
Robinson: What do you get other than this publication quarterly?
Hoffman: Yep , the publication .
Robinson: Newsletters also?
Hoffman: Yeah . I think you 're correct , just quarterly . The newsletter or
the publication is quarterly , not monthly .
Mady: My understanding is this is basically like belonging to a number of
like a lobbyist organization really . It 's a funding mechanism for them to
gain some dollars and they can go about their . . .political action committee .
They use the money to initiate or influence legislation .
Lash: So would the purpose of this be so that we would be more informed or
would the purpose of this be for us to lobby or I mean what would be our
main goal?
Hoffman: It would be to support our national affiliation , NRPA and as well
to receive some more information over and above the NRPA magazine in this
Friends of the Park and Recreation Newsletter which is more like the USA
Today of information . It 's tidbits here and there , that type of thing .
You know many of your agencies have .
Mady: To be honest with you Todd , I get the NRPA , when I get the magazine
I might spend all of 30 seconds looking at it .
Lash: Not me . I read it cover to cover .
Mady: Well good for you .
Lash: I look at the pictures .
nd -- - - —
Park
2nd Commission Meeting
1990 - Page 19
iPark a
Mady: Actually it would be a buffer
vehicles , Although I doubt almost better tc�
there 's going to keep pedestrians away
more auto In the context of
which SchConte , your question Jim
would require s because the Zan it 's actually better to move
Okay . Have steeper hill n
openings? you received
any interest on the Park and Rec Cam
Hoffman: I received two
Commission
person Picked applications to
ask tonight up an application and date, u
get whether or showed One additional
ask
question , what do the yourself and some interest . call . A
their intentions? he PeQPIe Larry 's not I intended to II
known , Not necessarily in the two seats here , They ha
Point we just need which those have
Y have to be tonight to have those the what are t
Lash: When 's the ght but intentions
deadline? sometime in the near made
Hoffman: future ,
End of bctober . Yep, the third notice
Mady: At this Paint tice will
in time go out this ii
Hoffman: I would guess week.
And Larry says I 'm going to reapply,
reapply . ys he likes these
monthly meetings. He 's going to
Lash: Just speaking for myself and
II
and read all this probably the
stuff about this Saving of
II
Mady: That appraisal was appraisal , Paper , I didn 't
Lash: Pretty in depth . II
Do you feel it 's necessary to _
Robinson: You 're have all of that?
e absolute) a
'offman: Y right , u< ed
It should have been the
duplexed
ash: But I mean but it was not ,
ime and e just in the interest of ,
equipment t ,
and all of that , saving money and xeraxin
me Yeah, itl I wanted to was g and
ime finding see is have
the bottom line and h�
sh: Use your I spent a lot of
judgment there and give us the n uts and bolts.
.binson: A question , What 's the
egemer : Park and
The CAA is a , , Rec 's association with the C
'nhassen Athletic
egem : The
Association .sure you 're aware of CAA?
What the City has They're governed by organization
the city offered support there is their is the
'lications PPort a city own board and o
printing,s portrfor the Park and rec Masan between that t at they
i distribution, facilities department to at group yen we
scheduling, help with
1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 23 , 1990 - Page 20
1 Robinson: Do either of you , are either of you on any officers in the CAA?
Hoffman: Officers? No . For the past 3 years I was the city liason to the
Athletic Association . I attended their meetings to keep up to date in what
they 're doing and how we can assist them . They 're registrations , they do
the bulk of the registration at a registration day at the elementary
school . However , after that city staff , the receptionist upstairs in our
department gets the bulk of the registrations after that time .
Robinson: Do you or Jerry go to all the meetings?
Hoffman: Yes .
Ruegemer : Prepare the agenda for that meeting . I did fail to mention that
there is going to be the CAA basketball registration is going to be October
27th which is this Saturday from 9:00 until noon.
Lash: It says the 28th on here .
Ruegemer : 28th? Okay .
Lash: But it 'd be the 27th because the 28th 's a Sunday .
1 Ruegemer : Okay . Not on the flyer?
Lash: Yeah . You betchya .
Hoffman: But does it say Saturday , October 28th?
Pemrick: Midnight to 3:00 a .m . .
'
Hoffman: Well they 'll get it right .
IRuegemer : They have until November to sign up .
Hoffman: At least it 's Saturday . Any proof readers in this audience?
IRuegemer : . . .there 's going to be a basketball clinic as part of the NYSCA .
National Youth Sports Coaching Association January 5th . That 's going to be
on a Saturday . January 5th and that 's at the elementary school . Steve
Hallbreck will be present , Jeff and myself to go over the clinic to get the
coaches certified .
1 Mady: That 's an excellent idea , the certification of the coaches . Can 't
reinforce some of the things they need to be aware of and then maybe even
teaches them some things they didn 't know .
' Hoffman: Additional comments on the adminstrative section . The community
center profile is going to be going out again in the Villager as an insert
the week prior to the referendum date . Other than that , the Lasting
Woodlands article was very informative in my opinion and copies of that
have been passed on to Dale Gregory and the other folks in our park
maintenance division and as well engineering and the planning department
are starting to work very closely with developers in preserving those trees
1
•
, .
11 UNEDITED
PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION MINUTES.
IINOVEMBER 8, 1990
•
II PRESENT: Dave Dummer, Craig Blechta, Barb Klick, Don Chmiel ,
Brian Beniek, Wayne Wenzlaff, Bill Bernhjelm
STAFF PRESENT: Scott Harr, Acting Public Safety Director
II . Steve Kirchman, Building Official
Bob Zydowsky, Community Service Officer
•
Dale Gregory, Fire Chief
1 Mark Littfin, Fire Marshal
. LAW ENFORCEMENT PRESENT: Sgt. Bob YanDenBroeke
GUEST PRESENT: Steve Walter, Conservation Officer
Chairman Bill Bernhjelm opened the meeting at 7:05 p.m.
Bark Klick motioned, Dave Dummer seconded, to approve the
1 10/11/90 minutes. All voted in favor and .the motion passed.
Steve Kirchman will be added to Staff Present.
IYISIT0R' S PRESENTATION: No report .
•
BUILDING INSPECTION DEPT. : No report .
II PUBLIC SAFETY: Scott Harr discussed the traffic issue on Dakota,
Erie and Cheyenne. Engineering is considering whether stop
• signs are warranted based on their traffic study. Advisory/
IIwarning signs are. also being considered.
Scott has submitted his recommendation to the City Manager regarding
the reorganization of the Public Safety Department.
IOutside warning sirens will be put on a future agenda.
1 FIRE DEPARTMENT: Chief Gregory distributed call/training reports
to the Commission. Calls are up 11.5% over last year at this
time, manhours are up 27% from last year. He briefed the Com- .
1 mission on the recent calls on the house fire and chemical spill .
The Fire Department called out assistance from the SW Metro Fire
League (which they had recently joined) to the Rosemount chemical
spill . The use of this haz mat team worked well . There are
1 currently 36 firefighters on the Department with an additional 3
being interviewed. Mayor Chmiel asked if articles will be
appearing in local newspapers concerning fireplaces, chimneys,
•
1
•
and Christmas tree information. Fire Marshal Littfin is
currently working on such articles.
1
II -
•
II
PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION MINUTES 11
NOVEMBER 8 , 1990
PAGE 2
I
The Fire Marshal discussed the recent educational programs put on
by the Fire Department . Extensive time went into the Open House,
Fire Prevention Week, community daycare centers , and educational
tours and demonstrations for over 1000 elementary students at the
Station. Bill Bernhjelm motioned, Wayne Wenzlaff seconded, that
Acting Public Safety Director Harr draft a resolution and present
it to the City Council for the commendation of the Fire Depart-
ment
for their efforts on the Open House and Fire Prevention
Week. All voted in favor and the motion passed .
Discussion occurred regarding the present shooting boundaries in
the City. Acting Public Safety Director Harr discussed the pro-
cedure for issuing shooting permits within the City limits . DNR
Conservation Officer Steve Walter spoke of the limited complaints
he has received in the Chanhassen area during this hunting
season. Chanhassen Public Safety and the Carver County Sheriff ' s
Office have received few complaints . Discussion followed on
possible changes needed for the current shooting permits . Wayne
Wenzlaff motioned, Barb Klick seconded, to update the shooting
permit map before the 1991 hunting season showing the newly
platted areas . All voted in favor and the motion passed. 1
Scott distributed copies of the Commission applicants and
discussion followed. Barb Klick is not reapplying, Craig and
Wayne are. An interview schedule will be set up for Thursday,
November 15 for the remaining six applicants .
Barb Klick motioned, Craig Blechta seconded, to adjourn the I
meeting at 8 : 50 p.m. All voted in favor and the motion passed.
1
11
1