2j. Lake Ann Park fees I
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CITYOF
•
A) • ..,
1 CHANHASSEN
... 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
I (612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739
4
Action by City Administrator
I MEMORANDUM Endorsed U
modifier,
TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager Rejected- _
1 Parkand Recreation Coordinator. Date_.,CO
FROM: Lori Sietsema, Date Submitted to Commission
i DATE: December 4, 1989
Date Suter i to Courcij
SUBJ: Lake Ann Park Fee /- / 96
1 After a considerable amount of discussion and research, the Park
and Recreation Commission has made a recommendation on the Lake
I Ann Park fee. The Commission was concerned that the fee be
charged uniformly and not arbitrarily. As the beach program is
the prominent "hard" cost item at the park, it was felt that
beach users should be charged. The debate was over whettler
1 ballplayers should be charged and, if so, how. Administratively,
it is rather easy to charge the adult leagues (although the
complaints are not few) . However, the youth leagues are dif-
I ficult to charge as they are traveling teams who may only play 2
games a season at Lake Ann. Registration for those leagues are
not held by the city and players come from a wide area.
I Additionally, the players are not charged for field use in other
cities.
Therefore, the Commission has recommended that the fee structure
I remain the same as 1989 (below) and that all park users be
required to pay the parking fee, except participants in youth
leagues. Additionally, it was recommended that the adult soft-
1 ball team fee include the park fee paid when they register for
the league.
iFee Schedule
Daily $2. 00 t�
I Resident Seasonal $5.00 ,
Non-Resident Seasonal $�:'e'0'"
Senior Citizens Free
i Buses $10. 00
tr
I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 24
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CONTINUED DISCUSSION OF LAKE ANN PARK FEE.
Boyt: Can I have a motion on number 8?
Schroers: Yeah, I'd like to make a motion that Lake Ann Park parking fee
for the year 1990 be conducted in the same manner like it was in 1989.
Boyt: Do we have a second?
Robinson: What? Would you repeat that?
Boyt: Do it the same way we did it last year . $2.00. No second?
Hasek: Just out of curiousity I called the City of Bloomington. I was
' going to call some others but I didn' t have time to do it today. I
apologize for that. Bloomington charges a $3.00 fee to get into Hyland
Beach. They have an agreement with Hennepin Parks . Their $3.00 gets them
into the parks and the park sticker gets them into the beach. They are
' looking at raising the price of getting into their beach to more come in
line with the park fee. In other words, they're going to raise theirs
probably to $5. 00 or $7. 00 to get into that beach.
' Sietsema: Daily?
Hasek: That's a yearly pass . The daily's going to go up though too she
said but she didn' t know to what. It' s just something that they're kicking
around right now. All of the money' s that paid to that park, that comes
out of those stickers, goes back into the park. In 1988 they made
, $33,000.00 on that park and they have approximately 100,000 people use it.
They fully expect the people that use their parks will pay for the parks.
That is the bottom line premise. This is a highly used park by a lot of
people from outside the comunity and they fully expect those people are
going to help pay for it.
Boyt: We had a lot of interest 2 weeks ago I think, on the commission of
' charging for the beach rather than the park. Right?
Schroers: Ed, I just want to make one correction. You said that it was
Hyland Beach. It's Bush Lake.
Hasek: It's Bush Lake, you're right. It' s Bush Lake Hyland it' s call
isn't it? I think that's what she called it. Bush Lake Hyland Park.
Lash: Hyland's further down isn' t it?
Schroers: No, Hyland is right across the street but it's actually. . .
Hasek: I think she called it Bush Lake at Hyland Complex or something like
that. Vr.
Schroers: Yeah, it's a merger but. . .
Hoffman: Separate.
Park and R Commission Cor ssion Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 25
Schroers: Yeah, a separate merger .
Mady: But they're charging for the beach?
Hasek: They're charging for the beach. They don' t charge for any of the
other facilities in the City. All of the money comes out of the general
fund and she said that they have never registered a single complaint for
anyone paying to use that beach ever. They have not gotten one on file.
Mady: So if they use the beach for swimming lessons or anything, they
still have to buy the park sticker?
Hasek: Yep.
Schroers: It' s not only the beach that they' re paying for . In Bush Lake
they also have a boat access. They also have picnicking. They have
volleyball and it is the total amenity, not only specifically the beach.
Hasek: That's the point. The swimming beach gets them into the park and
the park sticker gets them into the beach so you' re not only paying for the
beach, you are paying for everything else that's in that park. You are
paying a fee to get into that park and use all the facilities. Thexe' s a
free picnic facility I understand across the lake but most of the people
come to this one. '
Schroers: They have their own gatehouse at the entrance to Bush Lake and
you can't get to the picnic and the volleyball, the boat access or the
beach without going through that gatehouse.
Boyt: . . .Lake Ann Larry? '
Schroers: I want to operate Lake Ann for 1990 the same way that it was
operated in 1989 because there doesn't seem to be a logical or sensible
procedure for dealing with collecting the fees from the out of town people I
that participate in our youth recreation programs. There's not a fair way
to deal with that.
Boyt: Jan? I
Lash: I'm in favor of keeping the fee although I would be in favor of
upping registration by $5.00 and giving people who register through the
City a parking fee. At least we' re making a little bit more money off the
people that are using it. Softball and things.
Boyt: Jim?
Mady: My favorite topic. Lake Ann. Number one, I'm opposed to charging a
fee at that park. I think the people of the city who are using parks
deserve to use all the parks. I haven' t seen anything in staff' s memos
that show that any of the other locations are doing it on more than just on
an occasional basis. It seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
However, I realize that our budget is tight and reading the Council
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 26
I
comments, it looks like we' re going to do this anyway. If we' re going to
do it, we should by golly do it across the board , 100% without any
exceptions to anybody. What we' re doing right now is the very people are
paying taxes in this City are also paying the fee to get into their own
' park. The people who live in Lake Minnetonka area, Wayzata, Excelsior,
Chaska, wherever who are using our swimming facilities, which actually
costs more probably than the whole rest of the thing, aren' t paying the fee
' to get into the park. That's ludicrous to me that the people who live in
this town are paying twice. The people who we should be charging a fee to
use our facility aren't paying a fee. Let's make it across the board and
they pay their $2.00 at the gate and if they don' t like it, they don' t come
in but it's our facility. Not their facility. If they don't like it, they
can use a program someplace else. We just do it across the board. Whether
they come up to City Hall and buy their yearly sticker or they buy it out
' there, fine. Let' s cut out the bickering about this whole thing . Let' s do
it across the board. Everybody does it and let them know when they' re
going to have a program out here, that everybody's going to use this
facility is going to have to pay to use it.
' Boyt: Curt?
' Robinson: Boy, I'm really waffled on this one this year . I 'm back and
forth. Every other year I 've said yes to cover the fee but what really got
me was Todd ' s survey of the number of other places, surrounding
communities. Not a one charged for general parking fee. Some charged for
public beach use. I guess I 'd have to lean to exactly what Larry said and
that is contrary to what Jim said. I think I 'd prefer to keep it simple
and you can' t keep it simple I don' t believe by being consistent and
treating everybody fairly so I ' ll now second Larry's motion.
Erhart: I guess the biggest problem I have with this is, it doesn' t really
matter which way we charge. The big problem is that I think this is a real
inefficient way to collect dollars to maintain a park because I also look
at it like Jim. That we' re paying for it twice and I would like to see,
until a better way is figured out for it , I would like to see it across the
board also.
• Hasek: I guess all the discussion we've had in the past was trying to find
a way that people would feel comfortable about paying it basically not
knowing they were paying and paying anyway. Which is kind of Curt's
approach I think but I understood what he said. I would like to, if we do
go ahead and charge everybody at the gate which is the simple way of doing
it, and charging a parking fee for that park, then I think it's important
that we get somebody at the gate that can handle grief that they' re going
to get. I think Jim is right. If somebody does not want to pay to use
that park, they simply don't go into the park. But everybody has a
sticker. I don't know if you can pass stickers out along with your tax
statements to the people that live in town to make it easy for them. I
' don't know if there's 's way of doing that but I think that the users of the
park, that particular park and Bandimere when that comes around and any
other major city park, that we ought to try and pay for this facility
Ibecause not everybody uses it.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 27
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Schroers: Any one way or the other , there are other communities that are
charging for access to their parks. Like all the parking meters around
Excelsior lake and that' s not only for the beach and it' s for the picnic
areas and everything else.
Hasek: One last question and then a comment. The other thing that I liked II
about having not only a gate house but a fee for that is that it would
certainly discourage misuse of the park.
Schroers: If that was an open and free park, the word's going to get out
what a nice park it is and it will accommodate a certain amount of people
but it's not going to accommodate the whole world and we could have our
facilities overused.
Boyt: I agree with Ed and Dawne and Jim. I'd like to see everyone pay for II
it and I'd still like to offer reciprosity to Chaska with their paid park.
Offer them Chanhassen residential status as a neighborly thing to do. Do
we have a motion on this?
Hasek: What kind of a motion do you want? I make a motion that. . .
Sietsema: Do you want to hear from staff at all? '
Hasek: Not this time. •
Boyt: Go ahead Todd. '
Hoffman: I like your idea that we do that and as I discussed earlier , I
tried that once and for some reason or another , it fell apart. ,
Lash: Tried what?
Hoffman: Across the board. I sat down with, I had employee orientation '
meetings and I said, this is the ordinance. We're going to charge
everybody and all of them started to do that and then some of the weaker or
the more meek decided instead of taking that grief they would be a little
more lenient. There were two individuals that were very good gate
attendants and charged everybody and they called me all the time with the
hassles they were taking. '
Sietsema: And they didn't reapply.
Boyt: Let's get the City Council to. . . ,
Hoffman: Jay and I were out there one night with this particular
individual and plenty of cars turned around. Did not want to pay. That
was on a particular night when a Little League, a Minnetonka team was
coming down. So things just did not work out. I' ll go along with it and
enforce it. It's unfextunate that we went and did what we did last year
and then we're trying to turn it around just in one year. It shows that
we're uncertain on this item and I question the fact that we go through
this every year . It's in our ordinance. It says we need to do it every
year but I question the validity of that. So that's all my comments. I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 28
I
really like the idea that we didn' t have a big debate tonight . We just
heard your comments and hopefully we' ll pass a motion.
Robinson: Does Lori have comments?
' Sietsema: No.
' Hasek: What is the current fee structure?
Sietsema: $2.00 daily pass . $5.00 per year for a resident and $10.00 a
year for a non-resident.
Schroers: Well, I 'm ready to. . .
Boyt : Okay, go ahead.
Hasek: I think I started one didn' t I?
' Sietsema: No.
Mady: No. You asked about whether you wanted to ask for a motion.
Hasek: Go ahead Larry.
Schroers: Okay, I'm going to restate the motion that I made earlier . I am
going to move operate Lake Ann in 1990 the same as we did in 1989.
' Lash: I second that.
Boyt: There's a second now.
' Schroers moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to leave the Lake Ann Park fees the same in 1990 as they were in
1989. Schroers, Lash and Robinson voted in favor. Boyt, Mady, Erhart and
Hasek voted in opposition. The motion failed with a vote of 3 to 4.
I Hasek: Okay, we've got $2.00, $5.00 and $10.00. $2.00 daily. That' s the
one that's giving everybody the hard time because nobody wants to pay
$10.00 for out of town. How about if we just make it across the board the
same for everybody no matter whether you live in town.
Lash: Is it the $10.00 one that people? I think it's the $2.00 one.
Sietsema: It's the $2.00 one.
Hasek: Nobody wants to pay the $10.00. They're forced to pay the $2.00
I and they don't like that choice so how about if we make it $5.00 and $2.00
for everybody? Is there anything wrong with that?
ILash: I think it's still the $2.00 when they're going to only use it once.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 29
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Boyt: They have a choice if they're coming back for baseball at another
time during the year, it'd be a better deal .
Lash: What is it that you get the complaints about?
Hoffman: The complaints from the people that are coming from out of town
to use this park in an organized activity which we associate. Chan Little
League associates with South Tonka Little League. We go play on their
fields. We don' t pay to get into their parks. They come down to our park, 1
and they're upset about that.
Schroers: So it' s not a dollar figure, it's just the idea that they have I
to pay here and we don't have to pay there?
Hoffman: Correct. '
Mady: Well they're not paying to use the park. They' re paying to put
their car.
Boyt: Do you want to work on your motion?
Hasek: I just thought I would change it. I make a motion that we change II
the fee structure at Lake Ann Park to across the board for residents and
non-residents alike, $2.00 a daily fee, $5.00 seasonal and wiors over 65
or whatever the limit is for that, get to enter free. '
Boyt: Do we have a second? I ' ll second it. Discussion.
Mady: Ed, that was meant across the board. That meant anybody who went in I
the park has to have a sticker?
Lash: I can't go with non-residents paying the same as residents. Then
residents are still , we're still paying the taxes.
Hasek: Would you like to amend the motion? 1
Boyt: Would you like it that out of town people pay more?
Lash: Out of town people pay more. I
Hasek: How much would you like them to pay?
Robinson: $10.00.
Lash: I was going to say $30.00.
Sietsema: It can't be more than twice the resident.
Lash: Okay, so $10.00, then. But that's what it is now. I
Hasek: You're in favor of leaving it the way it is and just charging
everybody? '
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 30
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Lash: No.
Sietsema: Leave the fees as they are and just enforce it across the board
is what she wants you to amend it to.
Lash: No.
Boyt: No, she doesn' t want it enforced across the board.
' Lash: But I don' t want to change the fee structure.
Hasek: But then you're not going to vote for it anyway so you're not
amending the motion?
Lash: Right.
Hasek moved, Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
' recommend that the Lake Ann Park fees be $2.00 for the daily pass and $5. 00
for a yearly pass , seniors over 65 free for 1990. Hasek, Boyt and Erhart
voted in favor. Mady, Lash, Schroers and Robinson voted in opposition.
The motion failed with a vote of 3 to 4.
Boyt: Do we have one more motion?
Mady: I 'm consistent on this every year I 've been on the commission, I'm
against the fee at Lake Ann Park and I will continue being against a fee at
Lake Ann Park so don' t ask me to change your motion.
Hasek: Okay, so then it's either Curt or Jan or Larry that we have to
appeal to. How can we make it agreeable to you?
Sietsema: Can I offer a suggestion?
Robinson: Yeah, please do at this point.
Sietsema: We want to charge for the beach because that' s the biggest cost.
Hasek: I want to charge for the whole, excuse the language, damn thing.
Sietsema: Okay, let's charge everybody that comes into the park as a
' casual use, the $2.00 a day, $5.00 for the season, $10.00 for the
non-resident. If you're involved in a youth ball program, you get in free.
If you're in an adult program, you don' t have to have a sticker, but we' ll
charge. We'll beef up the team registration fee and apply that toward it.
Whether we give them stickers and do that or one way or the other, what
happens is cities charge to use beaches and if they feel that they're not
getting enough money, ,.1$hey need money to help maintain fields, they beef up
' the team registration fee. So if you want to beef that up and give them
stickers or if you just want to beef it up and not charge, it's the youth
ballplayers that are driving us crazy. That we get the biggest complaints
about.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting t
November 28, 1989 - Page 31
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Hasek: Parents of the youth.
Sietsema: Right.
Hasek: I can' t hear a little kid complaining a lot but I can hear his
parents.
Sietsema: Oh you should have heard him. He said the f word to Todd. He I
was a 10 year old.
Erhart: Oh really? Is it coming out of his allowance? '
Sietsema: His dad told him to shut up.
Schroers: Can I ask a question? The way that the program was handled last I
year is just exactly what you' re describing with the exception of raising
the fee for the adult league, is that right?
Boyt: And anyone who would feel like, who didn't feel like paying, didn' t I
pay. . . . I don' t think I should pay because of this. . .
Hoffman: No, that's not correct. 1
Boyt: Well , that' s what you led us to believe last year .
Hasek: I talked to a guy at the gate last year about that. I said if I
complain enough, are you going to charge me? No.
Hoffman: That's what I instruct them to do. He's not there to take. . . 1
Hasek: Well then what' s the point? 1
Hoffman: He's not there to take that verbal abuse.
Schroers: At that point he should just take down your license number and I
turn it in and let Todd deal with it.
Sietsema: There's no way we're going to be able to pay someone who' s big
enough and brawn and brainy enough to argue with every single adult that
plays softball and complains about that fee. There's no way we can afford
to do that and still bring in money.
Schroers: Was that a workable, feasible, decent way for you to operate
last year? Reasonably trouble free? We did collect funds for the park.
Maybe not the maximum that we could but we did take funds in for the park. 11
It was a working situation. Until we can find something that's
significantly better , I don' t feel that it's worth changing stride halfway
through. I
Boyt: Alright, can we have another motion?
Robinson: I 'd make a motion that we table this. ,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 32
I
Boyt: I' ll second that .
Sietsema: Until what?
Boyt: Until the next meeting .
Lash: I was going to make a motion on her suggestion. Can we do that and
take a vote. Maybe we'd be done with it.
Boyt: We have to vote on this first.
Lash: Okay.
Robinson moved, Boyt seconded to table action on the Lake Ann Park fee.
Robinson voted in favor and the rest voted in opposition and the motion to
table failed.
Lash: I' ll make a motion that we leave the fee structure the way it was
last year, $2.00, $5.00, $10.00. Beef Chanhassen registrations by $5.00.
Give them a permit and let the out of towner Little Leaguers in if they' re
in uniform for free.
Schroers: I' ll second that.
Mady: And the beachlot people pay. In other words, the only people we let
in free would be. . .
Lash: The little kids in their uniforms.
Erhart: Okay, they're the only ones that are getting in free?
Hasek: You're going to beef up the league and you're going to give them a
Isticker?
Lash: Right.
IIMady: What we did 2 years ago.
Hasek: That's what we talked about 2 meetings ago too.
Erhart: Would that be. . .for staff?
Sietsema: Well , it's doable but we're going to hear complaints about it
because we just changed it last year from the year before. We told them
last year they no longer have to buy the sticker and we'll just deal with
it. I really would like to put this to bed. I don't think you guys are
enjoying talking about it anymore.
Schroers: Just tell them that. . .need to be paid for.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 28, 1989 - Page 33
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Hoffman: So this is the adult leagues we' re talking about? So up their
registration fee $75.00 and give them stickers? '
Lash: $5.00 a head so it depends on how many people.
1
Lash moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the Lake Ann Park fees for 1990 be as follows: $2.00 daily 1
fee, $5.00 seasonal for resident, $10.00 seasonal for non-resident, raise
the adult softball league registration fee and out of town Little League
players in uniform will enter the park for free. All voted in favor except
Mady who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 6 to 1. •
Erhart: . . .putting up a sign. That kind of reminds people what they're
paying for. Maybe they won' t complain about it, like Larry said.
Sietsema: We can put up a sign.
Erhart: Maybe that will help you.
Schroers: Those adult softball leagues are going to cry about something
anyway so this is maybe just as good a thing for them to cry about as
anything else.
Lash: If they say something, just say last year our revenues went down ,
drastically and. . .
Erhart: Just put a sign up. Your fees pay for these jerks to collect fees
at the gate.
Mady: I recommend that the staff hire big people and pay them double what I
they paid them last year so we can get bigger people.
Schroers: You can tell them if they don' t like go play in Shorewood . '
Hasek: I 'll tell you what, Filly's bouncers are looking for work all day
; long in the summertime.
DISCUSSION OF ACCESSIBILITY.
Sietsema: What we' re talking about is a continuation of our discussion on II
accessibility before. I've included information from the Minnesota State
Building Code, Accessibility. Information from Bloomington which is kind
of the forerunner in handicap accessibility and also Hennepin Parks
accessibility study and since Ed kind of started this whole thing, I think
I'll let him carry the ball on it.
Hasek: I don't know that we've come any farther. I've still tried to get 1
some information from the national level. I 've called the woman and she
said that she'd send it and I haven't received it. I think it' s a small
organization. But, the question still remains, do we want to make some
8
I �
CITYOF
• CHANHASSEN
• , .
690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147• CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739
MEMORANDUM
TO: Park and Recreation Commission
, ea
FROM: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor I pervisor /
DATE: November 21, 1989
' SUBJ: Lake Ann Parking Fee
' At the November 14th meeting of the Park and Recreation Commission,
a request was made by the Commission to arrange a joint meeting
with the City Council to discuss this item. On Novembert6th, the
City Council discussed this item so as to give the Commission
some insight on their views. The minutes of that discussion were
not available for the last Commission meeting. As the Coun-
cil ' s comments have been stated in the attached minutes, staff
' felt a joint meeting would not be necessary.
It is the hope of staff that with this additional information a
' decision can be reached and a recommendation passed along to the
City Council.
1
1
1 �,
City Council Meeting - November 6, 1989
11
Councilman Johnson: Could we put this on our November 20th agenda so we can 11 have a little time to review these EAW's and inform the ROU that we will be
providing the City of Chanhassen's opinion on their EAW following our November
20th meeting? Basically inform the RCJ that's going to be considering this that
we've gotten it too late for it to be considered at this point. That we would
like to express an opinion. Maybe express then as individuals too.
Mayor Chmiel: The EAW is just a 3 sheet is all it is. 1
Councilman Boyt: There's a couple of them in there.
Mayor Cmiel: All the others besides but the one that I had looked at here. '
Councilman Johnson: If you can do one in 3 pages, you didn't do very much on
the EAW.
Mayor Qhmiel: That's probably true but sometimes some of them don't take that
much either.
Councilman Boyt: They're proposing quite an increase in density. They're
. re
talking about going right up on our border with this sort of thing. I agree Jay
that it's probably worth further discussion but I think the letter that Paul is
sending is just pretty straight forward stuff. Saying that we have a concern
about this. We want Met Council to know we're concerned about it and that's
about the size of the letter so I'd like to see that go forward without delay if
we can.
Mayor Qmiel: I don't see any problem with that.
Councilman Boyt: Okay? Next item, Lake Ann Park fee. The reason I bri it up
is it's apparently going back to the Park and Rec Commission and I'd like them
to have a bit of input from the Council. The Park and Rec fee stirs debate it
seems every year. Last year I think the previous Council might have made this
decision but the decision was made to reduce the fee. There is I believe the
reason motivating that was by the majority of the Council was that there was
some sentiment in the community that no one should be charged for using a city
park. I don't agree with that. I think this is a unique city park and it costs
a lot of money to keep it up and we ought to restore the fees we were charging
before in my opinion because we've gone from raising $23,000.00 to $11,000.00
which nets us $5,000.00. I agree with the staff to some extent but even
$5,000.00 with the budget pinch that our city has got is money that's going into
maintainng that park that we won't have without that fee. That's just my
opinion. I'd like to have the Park and Rec people have the opinion of the rest
of the Council when they discuss it. If you've got any off the cuff comments.
Mayor Q 'del: I guess my off the cuff comment would be that I see what the ,
existing charges are. I don't think we should go back to the previous charges.
The higher cost.
Councilman Boyt: $3.00?
Mayor Cxmiel: Some people{ well I should say maybe a few that can't afford it.
I know you'd give the $3.00' Bill but I don't know. I want to see the park costs
be covered by the people that are utilizing it as well.
58 11
i
IICity Council Meeting - November 6, 1989
Councilman Boyt: There are two sides to that. That's right.
Mayor Chmiel: And those from out of town who also utilize that park, are the
' ones that should pay for it as well.
' Councilman Johnson: What do you think about the youth sports that utilize it?
The Little Leaguers that came in?
Mayor Chmiel: Nah.
Councilman Boyt: I kind of think it should be built into the fees for the
softball people and the swimming people and same of those folks. An annual pass
is what, $6.00? That's the best bargain in town short of our meetings.
Councilwoman Dimler: that are other parks doing? Do you know what other cities
are doing with their parks?
•
Mayor Chmiel: I don't know.
' Councilman Johnson: I don't know of any other city that charges.
Mayor Qmiel: Maybe we should ask the Park and Rec to do a little checking with
same of the other adjacent communities and see what those charges are.
Everything's going up. Everything escalates. All except our salaries.
' Councilman Johnson: We could drop those.
Councilman Workman: I'd say keep the fee. Get as much of the darn fee as we
can. Use it for milfoil.
Mayor Chmiel: That's another good point.
' Councilman Workman: And put a big sign up at the front gate. Thank you for
paying your fee. You fee will be used for milfoil and/or other, mowing or
whatever.
Councilman Boyt: A sign wouldn't be a bad idea at this point.
Councilman Johnson: Your fees pay for the maintenance of this park.
Councilman Workman: And hire a big thug to stand at the gate and pay him $20.00
an hour.
' Councilman Boyt: Okay, third item. Frontier Homes. I think it's time. We've
had, I'm sure since Jim is moving, that he probably has something to say about
this but we have had one of the principles in Frontier Homes has come in and
' lied to us. We've had a record, I think it's probably Jim has it in here
somewhere of the 6 or 7 homeowners that are still dissatisfied. We have at
least one local resident or one local merchant who says Frontier Hanes owes than
money and they can'tget it from them. I think we ought to put an ad in. I
think we ought to put it in the Sailor once and we ought to put it in the
Villager one time. It doesn't have to be very big but I think the wording is in
59
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 16
league tend to be a little bit more social however the industrial league
does come into the competition part as well . '
Hasek: Todd, did I talk to you on the phone or did I talk to Lori?
Hoffman: About what?
Hasek: . . .over the telephone. I had filled this out and it was in, I
think I was going to turn it in last week but I forgot this week but I
think the only, like I said, the only comment I had was on the officiating
and I did make mention of parking.
Hoffman: Okay.
Mady: I thought it was funny, comment number 7 was talking about the
fields being in poor condition. . .
REVIEW LAKE ANN PARK GATE FEES. '
Hoffman: This item was presented at the last meeting which I was not
present. Upon the conclusion of discussion that evening the Commission
directed staff to investigate park facility fees in other communities. I II
did a telephone survey of 12 other metropolitan communites which resulted
in the following chart that is listed there. It just goes through and II lists what the findings are as they appear down at the bottom of the sheet.
So this is yours to discuss once again this evening.
Boyt : Something, I didn' t read all your discussion but something we might
want to do is ask for some direction from the Council on whether or not
they want the park to be self sufficient or if they want it to be open.
Hasek: Well it's not self sufficient anyway but certainly more self '
sufficient with a fee there to help carry things.
Boyt: That seems to be one. . .issues . 1
Robinson: I think they would be looking for some discussion from us.
Hasek: Didn't we have a consensus last week that we felt like we wanted to II
charge? Did I hear that correctly?
Schroers: I think that the consensus was the last time we discussed this I
was to continue as they were in 1989 into 1990. I don't think that we
decided that we were going to change.
Hasek: But there was a lot of discussion on how that was going to get
accomplished. Whether the stickers were going to be included and passed
out with the fees and-1f everybody was going to get a sticker and then
there would be no sales or limited sales at the gate as opposed to the
pass. I mean I think we talked about if there's going to be a fee, we
might as well try to do something with it as opposed to having it out there II
just for the sake of having it.
IIPark and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 17
I
' Hoffman: A few comments. Just to answer , I don' t know Curt if you have
questions about why we rehash this each year. It is written in our City
Code that each year this Lake Ann Park fee will be looked at. Reviewed for
' changes or amendments.
Robinson: Can we come up with some different items? This kind of
influenced my decision. Do you charge general entrance or parking fee at
any community park and none of them do. We' re the only one.
Lash: But then it says if you have a public beach, then it's half and half
' so ours says beach so.
Mady: They charge for the beach. They don' t charge. . .
' Hoffman: They charge for the beach only.
Lash : I've talked about this with a couple of people just to get feedback
because I didn' t know and that was one of the suggestions I heard was to
move the gatehouse down to the last parking lot before the beach and people
would have to pay to either launch their boat or use the beach.
Hoffman: General comments on last year when this was reviewed by the
Council at that meeting. They did not make a specific recommendation on
' whether we should charge the participants of city sponsored programs, being
the playground program, the swimming program, softball program, but they
said we've had a lot of problems with these people. Let's resolve it. I 'm
not sure how we want to do that but go ahead and resolve it.
Hasek: And gave it back to us?
Hoffman: Yeah. Basically the decision there was made that those people
would not be charged.
' Schroers : I remember what some of the problem was now. We thought that it
would make most sense to charge the parking fee for each participant in the
organized recreational programs, be it softball , swimming lessons or
whatever, when they sign up and register with the City. At that point just
' include the fee for the sticker and then give the sticker to the team
manager or whoever and make it their responsibility to give the stickers
out. The problem was that Lori said that a lot of the people, like the
' swimming lessons and that sort of thing, sign up for it in Shorewood or
Minnetonka or wherever. Okay, I think the solution to that is if they're
going to sign up for an activity that's taking place in Chanhassen, then
' they should come to Chanhassen, sign up for it here and then be charged the
fee for the sticker along with whatever charges there are for the activity
and have it handled that way.
' Hoffman: We can't do ,that Larry. There' s no reason to take on that
additional burden of accepting registrations here for other organization's
programs. If we did that, it would cause some real organizational
problems.
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 18
I
Robinson: The Little League you know may play Minnetonka East out here.
Well, what do you do when the parents from Minnetonka East want to come?
Hasek: You give the stickers to the manager of the team to pass out to the
parents of the kids and voila. They have their sticker to come here. '
Boyt: They're only going to be here 2 nights out of the year. They're a
visiting team.
Hasek: Okay, then that' s taken into consideration when we charge the fees.
See the cost, we talked about that a little bit too. Maybe if it's a team
event rather than charging $5.00 or $3.00 for the ticket and uping it for II
the full 20 man roster another $60.00, maybe we up it $40.00 and give
everybody a ticket. Well we can do the same thing for the out of town
ones. The point is that you have a sticker when you come in the gate. ,
Mady: Why not up the fee and not have any stickers?
Hasek: Because then the only people that are paying for it are the people II
that are participating in events and there are a lot of people that come to
that park on weekends for open swimming. . .communities. The whole point was
that we felt that the people who used the park, all of the people that used II
the park should be carrying the burden.
Mady: Then why don' t we, if you want to do it that way, the#people who are
using, when I read through this thing no one charges fees for the park
outside of the swimming area . So this. . .what we do is we charge the people I.
who are, the swimming programs. They get it added to their fee $2.00 or
something for the whole summer . Then during the time that swimming lessons II
are taking place, we don't pick up gate fees. But when the swimming
lessons are done at 12: 00, whatever time of the day it stops, the gate
attendant comes on and that's it. Everybody either has to have a sticker
or. . .
Hasek: What this doesn' t show me, and maybe it's here and I just didn' t II read it, but it doesn' t tell us whether the cost of that park is being born
by the general fund in these various cities .
Hoffman: Yes.
Hasek: If it is, then the taxes go up and you're paying for it anyway so
it's a moot point. We either, in my mind we either charge for the events
and we charge everybody a sticker to-get in or we give it to the City
Council and let them carry the burden of maintaining that park completely
and take it off of our hands.
Hoffman: Remember at the last report that was brought in we generated a
total of $5,000.00 net revenue which does not.
Mady: That won' t cut the grass on one field. I
Hoffman: So we are not supporting the park through this fee.
1
IIPark and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 19
Hasek: Could we support the park through the fee though? That' s the
question. How many people participated out there last year that, what
could have the potential revenue could have been that would have been
generated had we collected from everybody.
' Hoffman: It could have been much greater but just a little background on
how I 've worked with this since I first arrived. When I arrived, half the
people were being charged that participated. The softball players were
' being charged. The swimming people were not being charged. City ordinance
plainly stated any car entering that park during this time period paid that
fee. I attempted that first year to enforce that. We got much negative
' feedback. I was called out to that park numerous times throughout the
summer by the gate guards. The police were called numerous times for
irrate people because this was never done this way. This has never
happened. That evolved over the past 2 years. Last year Council got
' involved with it at that level . We' re making people upset. We' re making
neighboring communities upset because they come down here and they have to
pay to get into a park to have their children, their grandparents, they
' have to pay to come watch a kid. Council said last year, that' s not worth
it. Let' s go ahead and resolve that problem however you need to do that
and then last year we decided not to charge those participants. That does
reflect as I stated in my previous report, a loss of anywhere from
$5,000. 00 to $8,000.00 in gross revenues.
Hasek : But see Todd , I think it's substantially more than tAat. What
' you're looking at is a number of people that have historically paid. What
I 'm trying to find out is what, if 25% of the people who use the park are
paying for stickers and the rest of them are just complaining about it,
what happens if we get 100% of the people that use the park. That's
unrealistic. 90% of the people that use the park and pay for it, couldn' t
that revenue help us put equipment and stuff into other parks in this city?
I mean if we' re losing $8,000.00 by only collecting 25% of the people that
use the park, aren' t we in effect losing $30,000.00 or $40, 000.00 that we
could be collecting and that $30,000. 00 or $40,000. 00 could go into the
budget in other places.
Hoffman: No. If you read through the report there from October 16th, we
decreased the daily pass from $3.00 to $2.00.
Hasek: What we're looking at is paying for the sticker when you're going
in the gate . What I'm considering doing is charging everybody for the
sticker through all of the events and only charging those people that go
' through the gate on particular occasions. Perhaps it's when there are no
events going on in the weekend and the gate is open and then everybody that
goes into the park pays for a sticker. Otherwise everybody that
' participates in an event out there has already got a sticker. They've got
.
the sticker to go in the gate. They've already paid their fee. Then the
hassle's only going to be from those people who are using it for that one
event and that' s a daily pass or whatever that is and that can be, we can
leave the structure the same way that it is if we want to. And maybe we
reduce it. Maybe we reduce the cost. The point is that I don' t think it' s
the fee that bothers people. I think it's the fact that they have to pay
for it when they go in the gate that bothers them. They have to buy the
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 20
sticker. If you give them the sticker , even though they're paying for it,
I don't think they' ll mind so much. And it's really no different than
taxing them, like these communities do in the general fund. I mean if the II
tax structure for this came down and said that you're paying an extra $2. 00
to use the parks in the city, they' re not going to care. ,
Boyt: Most people say, I think when the survey was done you asked them, do
you want these facilities in our community and are you willing to pay for
them? They say yeah, I 'll pay an extra $5.00. Well here we' re asking them 11
to pay $5.00.
Hasek: Yeah, and it's just the structure that the Council is asking us to
resolve to eliminate the charge for. I think what they're asking us to do
is resolve how it' s handled and that' s really what I 'm looking at. It' s
not the fact that they' re paying. I firmly believe that they should pay.
the question is , how do we handle that.
Hoffman: I do not think that building it into the fee is going to resolve
it. We' ll have to start dealing with Minnetonka Community Services on
their swimming beach lessons and say.
Hasek: Can we send them a form from this city that has attached to it a
parking sticker? If they want to participate in our, this is the form you II
use and along with that form comes a parking sticker .
Hoffman: Again, it comes down to the negativism that they' re going to look II
at. They're going to say, these other 7 beaches that Minnetonka Community
Services offers swimming lessons at, they don' t charge us to get into the
park. Lake Ann does . We' ll go up here. We live in the northern tier .
We're close to this beach as well .
Schroers: You've got to pay to get to Excelsior beach. I
Hasek: 25 cents for 15 minutes or half an hour.
Mady: We should install parking meters. '
Hasek: Or you have to have a city parking sticker. I mean those are your
two options when you're in the city of Excelsior. If you want to park in I
the street, you either pay the meter or you have a parking sticker for that
park and for blocks around there.
Lash: Maybe what we could do is, I think what tends to be the confusing 1
point here is not the people who live in Chanhassen getting a permit.
They're registering here. We could up their fee. Give them a permit.
That's not a problem. Lori said that is not a problem. The problem comes II
in with non-residents and those are the people who's kids would maybe only
be over here once or twice playing.
Hasek: Or swimming lessons. I
Lash: Yeah, or swimming lessons . Maybe what we need to do is say kids and '
activities under the age of 18 or something, then you don't have to pay an
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 21
I
additional fee to get in but anybody over the age of 18, when they' re
registering for something in Chanhassen, you have to pay extra to get.
Boyt: Then the gate attendant has to deal with every adult that comes in
' and says , look I have a kid in my car .
Mady: Well it' s a parking fee. You can' t charge. This is a park that was
built with LAWCON grant money. We cannot charge the people to use the
park. We can charge for parking. That's it. It' s a parking fee.
Lash: But for people who are just bringing their kids in for an event,
' maybe what we can do is say we' re going to waive their parking fee.
Mady: Well we already do now.
Lash: Okay, so but the problem that we' re having now is we' re waiving it
for all the adults too.
Mady: The problem we're having is we' re not consistent in how we charge
parking fees. We're trying to get a consistency here. We don' t want
people saying fine, you' re part of Minnetonka so we' re not going to charge
you and all the people from Chanhassen who want to use it just for a Sunday
swim twice a year have to pay $5.00 to get down there and the guy
from Minnetonka who' s bringing his kid here every day for 2 'aeeks gets in
' the park for free. It just doesn' t make sense to me. We' re inconsistent.
Boyt: . . .to buy a sticker so we can go out and work on the 4th of July.
That's the only time I 'm out there is to work out there on the activities
but I have a sticker to do that.
Hasek: Do you mind?
Boyt: No I don't. It's five bucks. What are these people complaining
about? Five bucks or two bucks. I think it's too big a deal .
' Hasek: The problem isn' t, I mean we perceive that. The problem isn' t here.
It's at the gate. That's where the problem is. That's where the
complaining all starts.
' Schroers : It's at the gate and it' s also the adminstrative problems that
it creates for staff and I wonder if staff has a point of view that you
would care to. . .
Hasek: I think they're real clear about their point of view. I think the
staff would like to eliminate it and I can understand why.
' Boyt: We can go back to everyone needs a sticker to get into the park or
pay the daily fee and that's it and then it's up to the people to figure
out how they're going -,.$o get that done. They either go up to City Hall . If
they're from out of our community, then they deal with it in a different
way. The softball players are adults. They can deal with it. They can
either buy a sticker and pay their daily fee. They don't have to argue
everytime they go in.
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 22
1
Hasek: But they do.
Boyt: Well then maybe we need older park attendants or something or I
don't know. We need something else but it's $5.00. What's the big deal?
Mady: It's just what you said there. It's $5.00. What's the big deal? ,
Let's pay it. My point is, $5.00. What's the big deal? Let's throw it
out.
Boyt: Because our general fund is real low. Because there's not enough
money. We go over our budget every year. Cut, cut, cut, cut in parks and
I 'd like to see some funds coming in for us so we can do more in our parks. II
Lash: I think in 50 years or something when the City is fat and healthy
and has everything we want, then we can talk about letting people in for . . . II
Hasek: And at that point, the 50 years when the City is fat and happy, it
will be part of your tax structure and we won' t need to charge. I mean
you' ll be paying $10.00 in your tax dollars every single year for the parks II
in the City and it will be all nice and happy but right now it' s not.
Mady: It's not park money. It goes to general revenues. I think we' re
fooling ourselves here. It goes to the general fund . It gets used to
patch the streets over in Minnewashta. It gets used to fix the fire
hydrant in front of your house . It doesn' t go to the park t"iough.
Lash: Personally I think if we' re charging a fee for that facility, I
think the money should be then circled around to be used in that facility.
Maintain it and. . . 1
Mady: The other side of that coin is we 're getting all , the general fund
is paying a substantial amount of money to maintain that park. A heck of '
a lot more than $5,000.00 so I mean it' s an accounting nightmare. To say
okay I'm going to make sure that $5,000.00 goes there because we' re fooling
outselves. We' re taking out prime, spending over $50,000. 00 to maintain
that.
Hoffman: The general fund pays for the lifeguards, the gate attendants,
all of that stuff. '
Schroers : But it' s just additional revenue going into the fund, then I
think it's reasonable to anticipate with the new facilities, the extra II fields and the improvements that we have made and intend to make out there
that there is going to be increased use and it will at some point in time
amount to a lot more money than $5,000.00.
Mady: I guess the question we have in front of us is, how do we do this
adminstratively? How do we charge it and how do we do it adminstratively
and I have yet to hear,, an answer that's going to work. You' re still going 11
to have the problems at the gate. No matter what you do, you're going to
have problems at the gate.
I/
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 23
1
Robinson: We made $5,000.00 last year and we didn' t have any problems
because if anybody wants to go in or hassle you, just go ahead and go.
What' s wrong with that?
Mady: I guess it just means that the people who are really, you're not
being fair and honest to people. The guy who yells and screams and bitches
gets his way all the time and I think it' s about time that no matter who
you are, it's consistent throughout for everything. Maybe I 'm wrong and
' too idealistic but by golly, if you're going to have a plan, it's got to be
consistent. It's got to be legally enforceable for everybody. You can' t
just say, well we're going to do it this way but if you complain at the
gate or if you live in Excelsior or this or that, ah heck, then what you're
' doing is just charging the nice people in Chanhassen for everything and the
guy who you're trying to get money from is never going to pay.
' Hoffman: That' s exactly what I did 2 years ago. It spelled it out plain
and simple in the City Code and I attempted to do that and it did not work.
Schroers: What happened?
Hoffman: The complaints rolled in.
Boyt: Who was complaining?
w
Hoffman : First I 'd like to invite , if you'd like to, to stop out at the
' gate and work a couple hours. Almost every person that goes through there
has some comment about that fee . Every person that has to buy a sticker ,
definitely has a comment about the fee and it's not a pleasant job. It' s
' not a pleasant place to be. People are aware of this. . .
Hasek: The simple fact is, it costs an arm and a leg to live in this city.
It's not going to change for a long time until they get things straighten
out.
Boyt : I don' t think there' s signage in front of the gate telling what the
fees are?
Mady: Sure there is. A big sign right there.
Boyt: No, it's beyond the gate.
Hoffman: No, there's a menu board that says Welcome to Lake Ann. Daily
pass.
Boyt: No, it' s not at the gate. It's beyond the gate.
' Hoffman: It hangs on the outside of the gate underneath the window.
Boyt: It's the park rules that are 20 feet beyond that. Well , maybe it
needs to be bigger. , ust what the park fees are.
Mady: Welcome to Lake Ann. $5.00 for you to get in.
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 24
1
Hasek: I ' ll tell you, what we need to do is we need to hire somebody out
there and simply tell them, you get to keep 50% of all the gate fees you
collect.
Boyt : We had someone like that but that wasn' t our idea. That' s just what II
he did.
Schroers : If that' s where our problems are at is at the gate, then that' s
where we need to deal with them and we just have to come up with a logical ,
reasonable response to most of the questions that people are the most
common questions that they have in regard to the fee and people are just
going to have to bite the bullet. '
Hoffman: That's where the problem occurs. It' s not created there. It' s
created here and the decision that is made each year on how to charge that '
fee. Then we change it through the year and the public area, they get used
to it one way and the next year you change it again. If we go back and
change it again this year .
Schroers : Okay, what kind of problems did you have this past season? This II
1989. Did it work pretty well?
Hoffman: It worked considerably better than past years because the '
softball players were happy they didn' t have to pay to get 5.9. The people
who took swimming lessons or summer playground didn' t get ha ssled . The
visiting teams that came to play, Little League parents did not get
hassled. They didn' t have to pay to get in to watch their kids. So it
went considerably better.
Mady: Who paid?
Boyt : Yeah, I guess we're saying it' s not fair though because I paid and
Jim Mady paid so we could go work out there but people who don't want to
pay don' t pay. I think what I 'm saying is I 'm not comfortable even though
it went real well .
Lash: And I don' t think it's the softball players that don' t want to pay.
They just didn't get charged this year. I think they'd happily pay.
Hasek: Not happily.
Boyt: They're the ones that didn' t want a sticker because they don't put
it in one car. They want it separate- so they can switch it to 2 cars.
Lash: But if the gate attendant knows that these adults coming in with a
uniform on did pay in their registration, even if they forgot their permit,
they would know that the guy already paid.
Hasek: See, I don't t)iink that's a problem. '
Lash: So you know, jack up their registration $5.00. Give them a permit.
If they forget it, they go down in their uniform, they should get in
anyway. They've already paid.
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 25
1
' Boyt: We can do that with the softball players and the people that are
coming from out of town. The swimmers can have a change to purchase what
they need before they start swimming lessons .
Hasek: The registration fee for tournaments. I mean, when that thing goes
out, did they have to turn in a roster . You give them one sticker for each
guy on the roster and maybe it's only a dollar a sticker for the tournament
for a weekend tournament or something . I mean it seems to me like it could
be done without a whole lot of problems .
Hoffman: State tournaments we cannot charge a daily entrance fee for.
Hasek: A parking fee?
' Hoffman: No . Not for us to host a State MRPA Regional Tournament. It's
tight in their contract.
Hasek: Okay, is there a set fee on what we charge for that tournament?
Hoffman: For what we charge?
Hasek: The participating teams.
Hoffman: It' s we're hosting that State as a benefit to the business
' community.
Hasek: Oh, that' s right. I was talking about an invitational tournament I
guess is what I was looking for .
Hoffman: Yeah, we talked about softball players . It would work out fine
there. Playground program, it's a $5.00 program. If you want to
participate at Lake Ann you pay $10.00. People just won' t participate
there in my opinion. They' ll come to another park so no need to have
playground in Lake Ann.
Hasek: Wait a minute. What if you make it instead of $5.00 you make it
$8.00? I'm not saying we have to charge, I'm not saying there's a set fee
' for anybody going in there other than those people that have to purchase a
ticket at the gate.
Hoffman: I guess we can' t be arbitrary. We need to have some.
Hasek: Sure you can. Why can't you?
' Hoffman: Well we were this year and.
Boyt: This is a different kind of arbitrary.
Hasek: The point is that everybody is paying and I can see where you're
charging a guy $400.00 for a league long event in the summertime and you're
upping that to cover the cost of something by $3.00 a ticket or $5.00,
whatever a seasonal is, and I don't think that maybe $5.00 is necessarily
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 26
it. Maybe it is only $3.00 but again, I think that' s adjustable based upon
maybe the time that the event spends out there or something. I think that
that can be worked out and I think there' s something fair and equitable
there. We don't have to have a set fee. The point is that everybody pays
approximately an equal portion for using that park out there. Does that
make any sense?
Mady: I think one thing we have to find out, from the LAWCON situation out
there we found out a few years back that we couldn't charge the. . .we had
between resident and non-resident. Legally we couldn' t do it. We can' t
charge for use of the park but can charge a parking fee. I think what we
need to find out, some research has to go into the LAWCON, is can you
discriminate the way we are by not charging some people and charging
others. I 've got the feeling that this is a federal law we' re dealing
with, they've handled the discrimination situation already in there and
what we' re doing by saying yes to some and no to others, we' re in violation
of LAWCON already. I 've got a real . . .the City Code the way we are, we' re
in trouble. I think we've got to have our Code right. What we do at the
gate might be something totally separate and I have a problem with that
anyway but we've got to be at least legal on paper .
Boyt: I have another fly in the ointment. Earlier this year I thought '
maybe we could have some sort of reciprosity with Chaska or other
neighboring communities where we offer their residents resident status for
our parks and they do the same for us. Just as a neighborly thing to do.
They do share some, we share with the Mens softball. Aren't you going to
be sharing some fields eventually?
Hoffman: No.
Hasek: Not yet.
Boyt: In a few years they have some fields coming on line in neighboring I
communities. We share in Chaska. . .
Hoffman: They don't charge for theirs. 1
Schroers: Ours will be on line before theirs will be.
Hoffman: We don't use theirs. They don't use ours. 1
Boyt: No, they come here to play. The mens. The men come here to join
our teams. At one point we had talked about. . .
Hasek: Then we'd have to get Minneapolis and Hudson, Wisconsin and Apple
Valley. '
Boyt: Well I was just thinking of Chaska.
Mady: And Shoreview.
Schroers: Chaska and Shoreview but the reality of that was that our new
fields were going to come on line before. Therefore that wouldn't help our II
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 27
I
situation at the time.
Boyt: Well my thinking was with Chaska because some of our people that
live in Chanhassen really live real close to Chaska would like to use their
facilities and vice versa .
Hoffman: The only place they charge in Chaska is the clay hole and it's
$.50 a day or $13.00 for an annual family permit. Something of that
' nature.
Schroers: And is that to residents and non-residents alike?
' Hoffman: They have a separate resident/non-resident fee.
Lash: So let me back us up just a minute now. It'd be great if we could
make a decision tonight so we wouldn' t have to do this again another night
wouldn' t it? Were you saying where your adminstrative nightmare comes in
is with swimming? Is with youth activities when they come over here for 2
nights and possibly the playground program. You have to charge more for
the playground program. Not create a problem.
Hoffman: It' s not just adminstrative. I can certainly do that. We can go
to Minnetonka Community Services and say our Commission and Council feel
that we need to charge to use the park.
Lash: But you're saying it would create some.
Hoffman: It would create some problems but mainly what I 'm concerned about
' is what, the image that we' re putting out there to the people that are
using that park.
Lash: Maybe the image is that if you are enrolling your child in a program
in this park, we want to encourage people to enroll children into the park,
into those kinds of things, therefore the parking fee is being waived for
that particular program. However, if you're an adult, it's not that we're
' not trying to encourage people to do that but I think the adults don' t have
a problem with paying as much as parents have a problem with paying after
. they've registered their kid for something, then having to come and pay
I again to get in to watch their kid do that. So if we just set it up so if
it's a youth think where they're registered outside the city, if it's a
youth thing and they're registered here like the Babe Ruth and those new
things for the older kids that are getting started and they'll be using
1 Lake Ann Park a couple times a week,-then their fee would be bumped up
because they' ll be using it a lot.
' Hoffman: But when we work Lake Ann, or the schedule for the South Tonka
Little League, each one of those 12 teams that are in that league will at
sometime be possibly be scheduled to play down here meaning we would have
to make hundreds of passes available at registration and everybody who
registers for South To`nka Little League would need to get a pass and do we
charge them for that? We can't charge people living. . .
11 Lash: No, I'm saying the people who are registering in Minnetonka or South
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 28
I
Tonka or whatever it is, wouldn' t be having to get a permit. If they' re
only going to be coming over here a couple of times to play. . .and be done
with it. But the people who are out here every week using it, if they're
registering in Chanhassen. They' re here weekly or twice a week playing ,
then bump their fee up and give them a permit with their registration. '
Audience: How would the gate attendant make a determination?
Hasek: During an event. If the event is on and your kid shows up with a II
uniform.
Hoffman: There' s nights when there' s Babe Ruth going on which you say it II
should be paid. There's nights when both that and Little League are going
on so it does become very confusing at the gate when you try to explain to
those gate attendants that this is what we're doing. '
Lash: Well one way or another , if a kid comes in in a uniform, either the
fee has been waived for him, or the fee was paid at registration. ,
Mady: What' s the situation. . .happens all the time. The child plays a game
at 6:00 and the parent has to work until 6:00 so the child shows up with
his buddy. The parent, as a good parent, wants to see his child play in
the sport so he comes to the game. Now we' re charging him a daily fee to
get in to watch his son play.
Hasek: No, I don' t think so. The event is on. The event is on. There '
are no charges for anything .
Boyt: Then we' ll just maintain what we have now. '
Hasek: How many people are going to be going into the park, well I guess
that's true. There may be a few. ,
Robinson: When we get the Bandimere property and get that developed, will
we also charge a park fee to get in there? I
Boyt: It doesn' t have a beach. That's a big expense.
Mady: This is the thing we're talking about is the beach and the problems I
we' re trying, we don' t charge anybody use of the beach yet the problem
comes from the kids using the softball field and we're seeing here the
people who have general parks, none of them charge fees to park. It's the II
ones with beaches that charge.
Robinson: It goes back to what Jan said a half an hour ago. Maybe we
should move the gate down to the beach.
Hasek: We talked about that since the first year I was here.
Robinson: We went through a lot to get back to your first statement.
Hoffman: And again, 50% of the communities fully pay for that and build it II
into their taxes and 50% don't so if we want to try to get some back of
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
November 14, 1989 - Page 29
I—
that $16,000. 00 we pay out in lifeguard fees, maybe we can put it down at
the beach.
Boyt : Maybe we can fence at the beach.
Mady: I think what this is is one of those situations where it'd really be
helpful if we had a joint Council/Commission meeting to discuss it.
Boyt: I think we ought to table this. We don't have to decide until
January.
Hasek: I' ll tell you what. I wish that the Council would read through the
Minutes on this to just see how confusing it really is. It's not a simple
matter of one way or the other . Maybe they' ll understand.
Boyt: That's why when we spend 4 nights with this and then send it to
Council and they say, oh, I don' t think there should be any fee at all .
I 'd rather have a little bit of that input now. Whether they want a fee or
don' t want a fee at all . It might come down to that. If they don' t want a
fee at all.
II Mady: Why don' t we direct staff to request that the Council meet with us
before one of our meetings for half an hour or maybe we meet with them for
half an hour before one of their meetings.
Hasek: Or send us a representative.
Mady: Everybody has their own opinion and if they. . .
Hasek: But they don' t have to all be sitting here to hear our opinion.
I mean if they send somebody at least so we can have a sounding board, they
1 could take the information back then and give us direction.
Boyt: They could write back to us. They could. It's hard for people to
II show up for meetings. They could write back to us and it could be in our
packet and this could from Bill and this could be from Don and this could
be from Ursula and we'd have. . .
IIHasek: It's not an easy problem. We've talked about it for what?
Mady: Every year.
Hasek: minutes here and we're right-back exactly where we started.
Hoffman: One other point I think of, I 've sat out there a number of times
IIwith new gate and guards and that type of thing and said, we think of Lake
Ann Park as our premiere park in this community. We've got signs on TH 5
that indicate Lake Ann Park. People who are potentially thinking about
looking in Chanhassen ,to move out here, there's always a number of cars
,__ that pull in there and want to take a look at the park. It's $2.00 to get
into the park and they turn around. Cars do that all the time and we're
1 just sending an image that you can' t even take a look at our nicest park
here in Chanhassen because you have to pay $2.00 to get in and they do a
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting '
November 14, 1989 - Page 30
1
U turn and out they go.
Mady: I know I 'm not supposed to make a motion but I 'm going to make a '
motion to table this pending staff discussion with Council as to getting
either a joint meeting or direction from Council what their indications are
and also I'd like to see staff research whether or not LAWCON law deals at
all with are we allowed to disciminate the way we do with charging some
people and not others a parking fee.
Boyt: Second .
Mady moved, Boyt seconded to table action on the Lake Ann Park gate fees '
and directing staff to discuss with Council as to getting either a joint
meeting or direction from Council what their indications are on fees .
Also, research whether or not LAWCON law deals at all with if the City is II
allowed to disciminate from charging some people and not others a parking
fee. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONTINUE DISCUSSION ON ACCESSABILITY.
Mady: If you want, we can move this to another meeting. '
Hasek: I was just going to suggest that. I anticipated that Lori
actually about twice as much information. She's got some stuff coming in II
from some other people. To move it on but generally in the industry,
accessability addresses not only the handicapped but the hard of hearing,
the slight of seeing and the elderly. If you look through this,
Bloomington is really at the forefront of the Metropolitan area I think.
Other communities are following suit and it's not just this area. It' s
kind of a national phenomena that started with the building codes and
accessability that they're looking to spreading to other areas so it's
coming at us.
Mady: So hold onto this. I supposed we should move to table since it's on I
the agenda.
Hasek moved, Mady seconded to table discussion on accessability until a '
later meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS:
Mady: I have something that we' ll handle after we adjourn. Adminstrative
Section. Anybody see anything in there that they want to discuss? Fine. I •
just want to make a couple comments on Lake Ann. I drove by there today.
I've driven by there previously and went through the park. . .it's really
nice. The play structure is in place up on top. I didn' t walk through it I
but that looks really nice. The fencing is partly, well half done it
looked like. . . .staff should go out and look at. The turn around ramp on
the end parking lot, it kind of comes out and ends, we're just going to
I/
E
II CITYOF 6
I
• : . . :-'.1.1 .
• . . CHANHASSEN
,i .., .
1 .:. ,, 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317
(612) 937-1900 * FAX (612) 937-5739
II4
MEMORANDUM
IITO: Park and Recreation Commission
FROM: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor
7�
IDATE: November 8, 1989
IISUBJ: Lake Ann Park Fees
This item was presented at the October 24 Park and Recreation
II Commission meeting. Upon conclusion of the discussion that
evening, the Commission directed staff to investigate park facil-
ity fees in other communities. A telephone survey of 12 other
I metropolitan communities resulted in the information shown on the
attached chart. As can be seen, no other community surveyed
charges a general parking fee to enter a community park. Of the
II eight communities which operate fully staffed public beaches,
four charge an entry fee and four do not. The final point of
information which can be derived from this chart is that it is
standard practice to charge for the use of a municipal pool.
1
Do you charge
I general entrance Do you charge Do you charge
or parking fee for the use for the use
at any community of public of municipal
Community park? beaches? pools?
IIShakopee No None Yes
Eden Prairie No Na None
11 Hopkins/Minnetonka No Yes None
Shorewood No No None
Edina No f None Yes
II Bloomington No Yes Yes
Burnsville No No Yes
Eagan No Yes None
Apple Valley No None Yes
1 Plymouth No No Yes
Chaska No Yes Yes
St. Louis Park No None Yes
1 r
I
I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
October 24, 1989 - Page 17
I
Mady: Okay. Anything else?
Schroers: There is some property over there that got slightly scorched. . . I
Sietsema: You may find a huge fence on that piece of property. Between
Lake Ann and Lake Lucy on Prince' s property.
REVIEW OF 1989 LAKE ANN GATE RECEIPTS. I
Sietsema: This item is basically just for your information type thing to
let you know what occurred as fax as receipts at Lake Ann this year and to
keep, we' ll be discussing, establishing the 1990 entrance fee probably in
January so this would be, I ' ll probably attach this memo at that point in
time to determine if you want to continue to charge out there or make a
change in that direction. There is no action required on this. It was
again for your information.
Mady: Since the City Council is undertaking their budgeting process at II this point in time, to me it would make a lot of sense for us to tell them
one way or the other what we feel about this so that they can include
revenues or not include revenues and expenses in their budget process
instead of, I imagine what Don's going to do is assign some revenue of the II
budget in there and if they' re figuring on making 5 grand next year, or
making well , $10,000.00, all of a sudden they have a $10,00(+x.00 hole in
their budget. It just to me it' s smart for us to pass along our indication "
one way or the other now so that in the budget process they can just have
one less item hanging until January, February or whenever.
Robinson: I totally agree with that. I think we brought that same issue
last year up and $11,000.00 or a net of $5,000.00-$6,000.00 is not a
trivial amount. I think that' s a significant amount that we should be
budgeting for or not budgeting for.
Hasek: I guess when I read this, the options are, do we go back to
charging everybody that goes through the gate to provide that part of the II
budget from the users of that park, or do we dump it?
Sietsema: What I'd like to add is that the amount of money that we took in "
this year was $11,000.00. That's not a small amount. It' s just that last
year was so extremely large because it was such a dry and hot year.
Everybody wanted to be by the water. This year was very, if you compare it
to when the fee was $4.00 a day and $4.00 for a season pass, we collected I
about $6,000.00 to $7,000.00 so this is not a low amount of money. It's
just again is do you feel that $5,000.00, what it's going to come down to
in January is if we feel $5,000.00 is worth the hassle of having someone at I
the gate.
Hasek: That was my next point. My next point is, I don' t care what we do
but there's going to be somebody, as far as I'm concerned, somebody at the
gate because otherwise we're going to lose control of that park.
Sietsema: You mean charging at the gate. I
17 I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 24, 1989 Page 18
I
' Hasek: Charging, if we decide not to go with the charging that' s fine but
there's going to be somebody there to monitor who goes in and out of there
I think. I think that's absolutely imperative in that park. Otherwise
we're going to end up with more trouble than you'd ever know what to do
with. So the question is, how do we provide that service? Does it come
out of the general fund or is it given to the City, to the Rec Department
in their inflated budget or what happens there? We have two choices. One,
we either go without charging anybody at all because I don't think that
it' s worth it just to charge a few people and try and pick and choose who
those people are that we charge. I mean either everybody that goes through
there pays for the use of that park or nobody pays for it and that' s the
way it ought to be.
Schroers: There are exceptions.
Hasek: And that is .
' Schroers: Senior citizens. But basically a users fee is the way to go and
you collect the users fee through parking. Anyone who drives a vehicle in
should pay the fee and if you want to get in free, you walk or you bike or
do something else.
Hasek: Maybe that' s the way to go. Maybe it' s a parking permit.
Sietsema: It is a parking permit.
Hasek: So we' re not charging for drop off? Is that what it is?
' Sietsema: They have to pay at the gate. If they come right back out, they
get their money back. But as far as having somebody, if we didn' t charge,
I would just as soon see a roving person in the park like the park patrol
person on duty because the person in the gate doesn' t see what' s going on
in that park. They see how many cars are coming in and if they're bringing
in. . .
Schroers: It's not the person in the gate sees what's going on. It's the
people that going into the park sees that there is someone at the gate so
• they know the park is being staffed. There' s someone here. They see that
as soon as they enter the park and that's a deterrent.
Lash: I think the people that are already paying a fee to use that
facility. Say you sign up for swimming lessons or you signed up for
softball , you're already paying $45.00 or something, I don' t think that
they should have to pay to get in again. If you want to make them pay more
for using the facility, then the initial fee should be increased but I
think we have to have. . .
Hasek: That's another way to look at it because see, that was one thing I
was going to suggest `for the softball league if we did keep it was it
simply get stuck right back into, your roster amount is dependent upon how
many people you've got on the roster. That's the number of tickets that
1 18
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 24, 1989 - Page 19
1
you get and that might help us a little bit with rosters on some of the
teams. '
Schroers: That' s what we should do with the organized things is just pay
at the time of signing up or when you do the league fees. Include it and II
then each person on the roster gets a sticker or something .
Hasek: And $3.00 there maybe won't be quite as bad as having to go through !'
and dig through your purse for $3. 00 at the gate. Maybe that' s what the
hassle is is paying at the gate.
Lash: And the other thing, I've heard comments from parents who maybe
don't live in Chanhassen. They maybe live in Chaska but their kids play
maybe once or twice at Lake Ann and maybe that' s the only time they' re ever
going to use that facility and then they've got to pay, they've got to
either buy a season pass or they've got to pay $3. 00 each time to get in toll
watch their kid play a game that they already paid money.
Hasek: The question I would ask them is, are you so certain that your
• community doesn't already charge in the structure of things and you just
don't know. That' s the way that we' re doing it is just incorrect and
there's a more appropriate way of doing it to accommodate people. Nobody '
is going to complain about an increase of $2. 00 or $3. 00 for a cost of
service at the beginning of the year.
Sietsema: Right now the way it is, a lot of people get charged a small feel
to use the park. If you 're in a program you paid for the program. If you
come in the park, you pay to get in the park. The other way to do it and
maybe cities do this is in the softball registration fee, they charge you all
maintenance fee or a park development fee within, that helps keep up.
Replace the fences. Keep the lights going. It's a chunk of the
registration money that goes into the maintenance or the development fund
to help keep up the fields and it would be the same applied to the people
that are taking so many lessons because they' re definitely using the
facilities there. There's a lot of different ways to approach it. We
don't have to charge someone at the gate and when we have the park shelter II
out there with the concession and the boat rental there, there will be
people on staff there and there will be other ways to bring in.
Schroers: I think that's good. That maintenance fee is good and all that
II
but I think each and every person that drives a vehicle into that park
needs a sticker and they get issued that sticker through whatever means. If '
they stop and they pay their $3.00 at the gate, they get their sticker or
if they belong to a program, they get their sticker at the time that they
signed up and then they're going to have to be responsible for having that
sticker in order to get into the park because it doesn't work if you have II
some people going in with stickers and other people going in without. That
doesn't work. Everyone has to have a sticker.
Hasek: There's one more comment here and I didn' t see catching that.
There's some families that do have two vehicles like myself and the
question is, which vehicle goes in. I don' t mind buying two stickers.
19 '
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 24, 1989 - Page 20
I
Schroers : The extra sticker is half price or something.
' Sietsema: If you don't have a sticker, you can put it on. . .
Hasek: Yeah. Is it necessary to have a sticker afixed to the vehicles is
the question I would ask.
Schroers: You've got to have a sticker, I don' t care where it is.
Mady: Like two years ago I had it stuck on a piece of plexiglass and
whatever car I took, it went in the car.
Lash: We did that too although a lot of times we ended up with two cars
over there.
11 Schroers : You just give people the responsibility of just tell them, do
you want to get into the park without paying, you' re going to have to have
a sticker and that's it.
iMady: My only comment on that is the problem we ran into 2 years ago with
the Little League players and it's going to be more and more so now with
I Babe Ruth playing at that one field every night. We have people coming in
from Minnetonka. People from Chaska. People from Excelsior. People from
Shorewood. All over the place. They' re coming in to watch their kids play
ball and those are the people that yelled and screamed 2 ye Ors ago. They
got upset about having to pay a daily fee to watch their son play.
Hasek: They don't have to pay a daily fee.
' Schroers : There has to be some kind of a program if they' re going to play
ball .
11 Mady: But it's the park attendant.
Sietsema: How does he know they' re coming to play?
Mady: How do we handle that problem? The gate attendant being able to
sort through who's telling them a fib.
Hasek: That's what I 'm saying. What we're talking about is everybody
having a sticker so now the question is, that's the whole point at this
junction I think. The point is, your kid will get one when he registers
for the program and it goes into the vehicle of the parent's car now so the
only question is, at the gate is where' s your sticker. My kid' s in the
program, where's your sticker?
(There was a tape change at this point.)
' Sietsema: Well company picnics aren't a problem.
Hasek: I don' t think that needs to be a problem.
11
1 20
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
October 24, 1989 - Page 21
I
Sietsema: We handle those totally different anyway. They come in and they
give us a business card and we bill them. We bill them for a daily pass
for every business card that comes in. Each car has to give a business
card or we mail them out tickets and they hand in the tickets. So we count
up the tickets that we get and we bill them for that many daily passes.
Hasek: So we could do basically that same thing for, I wonder how hard 11
that would be for the other teams coming in. How many other teams do we
have coming in for that facility up there? ,
Sietsema: In the little kids program?
Hasek: Yeah. Are there a lot? 1
Sietsema: Well , yeah. Every week they play another .
Schroers: Don't they have to sign up and aren't they included into the
Chanhassen program?
Sietsema: What it is right now is the Chanhassen kids are in the South '
Tonka Little League program.
Schroers: And at that time, can' t all the people that need access to the II
park get a sticker?
•
Sietsema: If you assume that the Chanhassen team plays every other team at
least once at home, then everybody in South Tonka Little League is going to
need a sticker .
Hasek: All we're offering is, that revenue is not coming into our 1
recreational program is it?
Sietsema: No. I
Hasek: It's going into the South Tonka .
Lash: They'd all get the passes in that they could use all summer. Is I
there a way that we could set up a program for youth activities a temporary
that could be used. 1
Mady: A youth activities pass.
Lash: So that way if they came in on a Sunday afternoon when you know
there's nothing going on, that it wouldn't be valid. They wouldn't be ablell
to get in then.
Robinson: I doubt if they'd come over here and use it. ,
Sietsema: The administration of stuff like that is really, you could get
them all out there. first of all, you've got 2 people that do registration "
for South Tonka and they get them all out to the coaches and the coaches
get them all out to the kids and half the kids get them out to their
parents. So then the parents come out and half of them have them and half II
21 ,
IFPark and Rec Commission Meeting
October 24 , 1989 - Page 22
I
of them don' t and they say, I never know. My kid never brought one home or
11 we registered late and didn' t get one. Or they didn't have them yet when
we registered. I mean you're going to hear that kind of stuff . It' s an
adminstrative nightmare. It's easier just to say, are you watching Babe
Ruth? Yeah. Okay, go.
Hasek: Or ask them if they're watching volleyball then you know that you
charge them because there's no volleyball going on.
Lash: It used to be a few years ago if you had a uniform on, or someone in
your car had a uniform on.
Hasek: It just seems to me that there' s a way that that could be done.
Maybe the tickets are collected at the gate.way don't know but it sounds to
me like what we' re talking about. . .
Sietsema: As far as the adult softball league, that' s a breeze. That' s
not a problem. We can include $100.00 extra bucks in their registration
' fee and give them 20 stickers. We did that before.
Hasek: The question I was going to ask before we got off the track, was
how do our fees generally compare, our program fees compare with other
cities? Are we in the ballpark? Are we low?
Sietsema: We' re getting closer because we were so high. WO. were so high
I before. We were like, when I first started here in Chanhassen it was $4.00
a day for a daily pass. $4. 00 for a season pass if you were a resident and
$25.00 for a season pass if you were a non-resident.
Hasek: The question that I asked was related to the programs. For
example, registration fees for men's softball. Are we in the ballpark?
Sietsema: We' re in the lower scale.
Hasek : So we could afford to take a little bit of a bump and not get a lot
of complaining about we're the highest in town, which is typically what
happens.
Sietsema: Todd did an evaluation survey. He sent it out to all the
managers and he' ll be able to answer that question more clearly at the next
meeting becaues he's going to present that to you but basically people,
there wasn't a lot of complaints about the fee. We are between, we' re not
the lowest. We're between the middle and lowest. We're somewhere in there
in the lower half. He's continually trying to bump that up. We do cover
our referee fees and the tournament fees and the softball , buying the balls
and that kind of stuff. The hard costs that we have but what he was trying
to establish is getting that up to a point where we could kick in to help
maintain and develop the fields. Right now we're replacing some of the
fences on the Lake An fields. If that comes out of the park dedication
fund, it's taking awai from the neighborhood park development fund. So
we' re looking at ways to do that.
' 22
Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,
October 24, 1989 - Page 23
Hasek: You had mentioned adding another $100.00 to the fee. I don' t know,
was that where we' re at right now? $2.00 to get in? I
Sietsema: Right now it' s $5.00 for a season pass for a resident and it' s
$2.00 or $3.00 a day.
Hasek: Okay, so we could arbitrarily pick a number and say add another.
$50.00 to it and still give them their stickers right? I mean it doesn' t
mean that we have to charge $5. 00 but we could. We say we' ll add another
$50.00 in here and you get the stickers for getting into the program. I
think you can work that out. I honestly don' t think we have to pull out of
the recreation budget nor out of the City's budget for that part. I really"
hink that that will work. Even some of the glitches can be worked out if
we really put our minds to it. So maybe that' s the direction that we' re
giving Council is not worry about us . We' ll take care of that part.
Figure out a way. ,
Mady: . . . I don' t think there are enough fees out there to take care of the
park. t
Sietsema: No.
Mady: That park costs us a lot of money to maintain. ,
Sietsema: It costs a lot and the beach program costs a lot:4 The beach
program alone costs about $12,000. 00. '
Robinson: When will the budget be concluded?
Sietsema: It should be done by the first half of December. 1
Mayor Chmiel: The 27th.
Robinson: Have we got some time to think about this? Everybody.
Mady: We should do something by next meeting I would think. They need to
get information. These poor guys aren' t going to sit down on December 15th
and start thinking about the budget.
Sietsema: They're working on the budget now. We have our park capital ,
improvement program into them already. This really represents such a small
amount of money that when you consider the amount of cost that are out
there. When you get down it, we brought in $10,000.00 and it costs us
$5,000.00 to have somebody out there. That means we're talking about
$5,000.00. It pays for half the beach program. It pays for mowing the
lawns or it pays for replacing the fences. Sure, it does contribute but we ll
don't actually see it. It goes into the general fund so we don't actually
see that and when you talk about $5,000.00 in the overall general fund,
• that's where Todd is beginning to wonder if $5,000.00 is worth the headache
of having to charge a'fee at all.
Robinson: I guess I disagree with that.
23
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 24, 1989 - Page 24
1
Sietsema: Well that was the direction that the Commission was giving me a
year ago. So anyway, there's no decision that has to be made on that
tonight.
Hasek: I think we have to be more fiscally responsible.
Lash: $5,000.00 is $5,000.00.
' Schroers: Let's not complicate this as much as we can and eliminate the
things that we know we don't need to deal with. You said adult softball is
no problem. You've got that taken care of.
Sietsema: It's not a problem if you want to charge them to get into the
park. This year , see we've waivered back and forth on this so many times.
First we made them all buy a sticker at the park. Or the first year they
had to come into City Hall and all buy a sticker . The second year , they
could either buy it at City Hall or out at the park. The third year, they
got them, they could buy them at the time that they registered their team
and half them did and half of them didn't and they bought them out at the
park and there was always the hassle out at the park. This year we didn' t
charge anybody to get into the park if they were in a program.
Schroers : And it worked well? We still made $5,000. 00. Let' s do it that
way and not make a big deal out of it.
11 Robinson: Can we put it on the agenda for the next meeting and maybe you
can make a recommendation and we can think about it.
I/ Hasek: It seems to me like the easiest thing to do is just to give
everybody that's in the program a sticker and charge them.
Lash: And charge them $5.00. You said that' s a thousand people right?
Hasek: Right.
Sietsema: And that' s a very easy concept for me to think of it that way if
all the registrations happen in Chanhassen. I could do that in a minute
and it would not be a problem. But everybody who takes swimming lessons
registers in Minnetonka. Everybody who's in the South Tonka league,
registers in South Tonka.
Hasek: We' ll figure that out. There's got to be a way that we can
accommodate those people somehow. Get them a sticker.
Schroers: That needs to change. If they're using the park here in
Chanhassen and registering in Tonka. . .have them come here to register.
Robinson: Why not do what we did this year. If they're in the program, go
11 on in.
Mady: We may just need to bump our program fees up and not give a sticker.
Hasek: That's another thing.
' 24
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I
October 24, 1989 - Page 25
I
Mady: The logistics of giving stickers out is a problem.
Hasek: The problem is giving the people. . .carrying the brunt of that
thing. There are a lot more people that go out there to use that park.
Are the people that are in the programs necessarily the ones that do most II
of the damage or is it the family that goes in there on a weekend and tears
the place apart. The kid that goes in there and drives across the softball
field in his automobile that's doing the damage out there. It seems to me II
like what we want to do is to charge to get into the park and get the
people that use the park to pay for it.
Sietsema: What we need to identify, what do we want to pay for . 1
Robinson: Parking.
Sietsema: Do you want to pay for the maintenance of the park? Do you want ll
to pay for future development of the park or the programs that are in the
park.
Hasek: Sure.
Sietsema: Okay. If that's what you want to pay for, then we need to
figure out how much those cost and we need to determine, given past
history, how riuch we' re going to charge.
Schroers: We want the fees to go towards that. We don't want the fees to II
encompass it. We don' t want to budget specifically by charging entrance
fees into the park to cover the overall cost of maintenance and expansion
and everything else. We just want to be able to add the money that we
collect from fees to the cost of operating the park and the programs and
the development. Just use the money that we collect for entrance into Lake
Ann to support our costs at Lake Ann. I
Hasek: The same thing ' s going to happen I 'm hoping with Bandimere when
that gets organized. I
Sietsema: And what about Lake Susan?
Hasek: Susan's another real good possibility. That's a very high profile II
park and I think once that thing gets developed, there's going to be a lot
of people down there picnicing and stuff. It's the big park. The
community parks, the little local parks can take care of themselves, or
it's our bi ob to take care of them but those
j big community community
parks where we've
got people coming from all over the place, those are the ones that we need
to, those are the ones that I think we need to try to get to carry
themselves. There's a bunch of ways to do it. We can either do it that
way or we can throw the maintenance of those and all of those programs into
the general fund and it comes out of the taxes.
Sietsema: That's the way it is now.
I
25 '
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
October 24, 1989 - Page 26
Hasek: One way or another , the people that use it are going to pay for it
1 and it seems to me like if we can catch people going into the gate, then we
get people that are coming from out of town to make their contribution. If
we don't do that, then we in Chanhassen are going to be providing a park
for anybody that wants to go in there and I don' t think that' s right. I
don't think that's being fiscally responsible. One way or another we have
to. . .
Mady: Can I move to table this item until our next meeting?
Sietsema: What specifically do you want me to bring back?
Mady: I think we've had enough discussion tonight so that people can think
about whether or not we're going to charge a fee and how to go about doing
' it and the next meeting we' ll talk about how we want to do it.
Robinson: How did you handle the programs this year? There should be
' some. . .
Sietsema: If you were in a program, you didn' t have to pay to get into the
park.
' Robinson: But I mean, that' s the type of thing, if we could have some
information on what's been done.
Mady: And Todd ' s survey may be helpful too. A second on the motion?
Robinson: Yes .
Mady moved, Robinson seconded to table discussion of the 1990 Lake Ann Park
gate fees until the next meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
VOLUNTEERS FOR HALLOWEEN PARTY.
Sietsema: We need people like crazy. Grab your wife. Grab your kids.
Grab your kid's wife.
Hasek: My wife volunteered for something else and I have responsibility
for the little ones this year. The same thing happened last year. She
pre-empts me.
Mady: I'll have my wife call . She' s signed up.
' Sietsema: Do you know what she wants to do?
Mady: No. I know she' s willing to help. I don' t give her specific jobs.
Sietsema: We needs characters dressed up in costume to answer these doors
' to make it really fun for the kids. We need to know if you're going to be
a scarey costume or a friendly one.
26
CITYOF
11! CHANHASSEN
COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 1
(612) 937-1900
MEMORANDUM
TO: Park and Recreation Commission I
FROM: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor
DATE: October 16, 1989 '
SUBJ: 1989 Lake Ann Park Receipts
The 1989 summer season at Lake Ann Park was not only cooler than
1988 in respect to temperatures, but gate receipts as well. The
total revenue for 1989 was $11,943. 00, slightly greater than half
of the $23,461 collected in 1988. A total of 3,029 daily passes,
839 resident seasonal passes and 169 non-resident seasonal passes
were sold. Subtract a 6% sales tax and the total collected ,
equals $11,226.42.
The decrease in revenue can be attributed to several factors; the
decrease in price of a daily pass from $3.00 to $2.00, not
charging participants of City sponsored sports and activities,- and
a normal summer in respect to weather. Over 3000 daily passes
were sold accounting for a possible loss of $3,000. Approximately
1,000 participants in organized activities, i.e. softball, base-
ball, playground, swimming lessons were not required to purchase
a $5.00 seasonal pass accounting for another possible loss of
$5,000. Combine these factors and the season revenue figure
begins to come into focus.
This report is solely meant to report the revenue received
through the Lake Ann Park fee program. However, when the cost of
paying the gate attendants (approximately $5,500) and the cost of
printing passes ($800) are taken into consideration, one begins
to question the value of charging a fee. The outright and hidden
negativism towards paying to use a City Park may be a greater
price to pay than the monetary gain of $4,926.42 can justify. I
The park fee is established by resolution each year; normally
during the month of January. This issue will be brought back to
the Park and Recreation Commission again to establish a recommen-
dation to pass along to the City Council later this year. In the
meantime, you have an opportunity to develop an opinion on this
item.
lk Page 2
1 Update (October 24, 1989)
The Park and Recreation Commission felt this information would be
1 helpful as the Council goes through the budgetary process. No
action was taken by the Commission, however, a recommendation
regarding Lake Ann fees will be rendered in early 1990.
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