1l. Minutes CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
JULY 9, 1990
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. . The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Workman, Councilwoman Dimler
' and Councilman Johnson
COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Boyt
' STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Gary Warren, Todd Gerhardt and Jo
Ann Olsen
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
approve the agenda amended to include the following under Council Presentations:
Mayor Chmiel wanted to discuss 78th Street and Councilman Workman wanted to
' discuss a water problem on Cheyenne. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
' recommendations:
a. Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Amend Article II, Sections 20-56 through 20-70
I! - Pertaining to Procedures for the Issuance of Variances, Final Reading.
d. Resolution 190-72: Accept Utility Improvements in Country Oaks, Project No.
89-1.
' e. Resolution #90-73: Accept Street Improvements in Deerbrook, Project 88-7.
' f. Resolution 190-74: Accept Utility Improvements in Vineland Forest, Project
89-27.
h. Resolution 190-75: Building Inspection Vehicle, Award of Bid.
i. Approval of Bills.
' j. City Council Minutes dated June 25, 1990 as amended by Councilman Workman
correcting the motion on page 13 to read the second by Councilman Johnson
not Councilman Workman.
' Planning Commission Minutes dated June 20, 1990.
k. Authorization to Send Letter to Lake Minnetonka Conservation District
' Regarding Proposed Taxing Authority.
I. Resolution 190-76: Approve Resolution for Recertification of Joint
Cooperation Agreement with Hennepin County.
I- rn. Approval of PMT Development Contract/Grading Permit.
IIAll voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
1
IICity Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
.' B. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-92 REGARDING CERTIFICATES OF
OCCUPANCY BY ADDING PROVISIONS FOR LANDSCAPING REQUIREMENTS, FINAL READING.
Councilman Workman: This is regarding the Zoning Ordinance Amendment regarding
Certificates of Occupancy by adding provisions for landscape requirements. It
would be the responsibility of home builders to install a tree and seed or sod
prior to the issuance of a certificate of occupancy and I guess I want to leave
one idea in your minds and then maybe we can discuss it and we can get to what
I'm maybe getting at. When I moved to the community and I was looking at homes
' and new homes or rather unbuilt homes, which I think this is going to, this is
what this is directed at. One way to move in and save a buck and to do, I don't
know if there's a growing trend but an awful lot of people like to do a lot of
the little small things in their home to save a buck. Try to get into maybe a
' bigger house than they can handle but if they take care of it themselves, they
can save money rather than have the builder do it, the siding, trim, all sorts
of things. And I know that one of the big things was the landscaping. To
' leave the landscaping so that a person could save quite a bit of money if they
planted their own trees, bought their own sod and I guess just kind of an
initial sweat equity thing that people kind of use to save a little bit of money
' rather than moving into a home that's all complete. Yard done and everything
else. And so this ordinance kind of concerns me in that regard in that a person
can maybe save, I don't know, up to $1,000.00 bucks or something by waiting or
doing it themselves. And so as Jay shakes his head, I'd like to have some input
' onto whether or not we're taking that one thing away from people.
Councilman Johnson: All we're requiring is two trees in the front boulevard and
' the City owned area from the street to the person's property.
Councilman Workman: That's all we're asking? Nothing else?
' Councilman Johnson: I believe that's all. Unless we add additional things as
part of a PUD such as Lake Susan Hills West has additional landscaping
requirements in their PUD because they got the smaller lots so we required the
' developer to put in the trees. This isn't the builder putting in the trees.
It's the developer.
' Councilman Workman: Then this is unclear because this isn't saying anything
about just the boulevard or property on an easement or the other side of the
sidewalk_ This is saying a Certificate of Occupancy shall not be issued unless
' landscaping has been completed or unless $750.00 or such other amount as shall
be determined by the City's Planning Director. Credit is furnished the City
guaranteeing completion within 60 days.
1 Mayor Chmiel: Tom, I guess I have one thing to add to that Tom. What happens
if they have that house built. They're ready to move in in February. There's
no way they could possibly put sod or put trees in basically so that might be a
' hang up and I don't know what we have to really cover that and I didn't see that
in here. Roger?
Roger Knutson: First, what this does is it says, if you have a development
' contract, you have to have that $750.00 posted to guarantee completion of what's
required in the development contract. The development contract, the general
conditions which you have approved spell out what has to be done. The 2 trees
and the sodding. Second, this does not prohibit a homeowner, the home buyer,
2
II
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
himself or herself from doing the work. All this says is before the Certificate
of Occupancy is issued, that $750.00 has got to be put up to make sure the work
gets done. It doesn't specify who has to do it. Third, it says you have to do
t it within 60 days weather permitting. So in February I would suggest you
probably couldn't get it done. Unless it was a really great February.
Councilman Workman: Well, I don't know. Do people get it done, and maybe this
is why we're drumming up this ordinance but a lot of people don't get to it for
a year. I mean they've strapped themselves pretty tight and I know that we have
some neighborhoods around here and they just don't get to it. They want to get
some shades on the windows and they want eat and they want to do some other
basic necessities and then maybe wait a season before they come back around and
try to get that done. '
Councilman Johnson: It's the developer's responsibility, not the homeowner's to
do this. We have a contract with the developer. Not the homeowner. We're
going after the guy that's making the bucks. Not the guy spending the bucks.
Councilman Workman: But where's this going to get turned around to Jay? Isn't
a developer going to pass that on to the home buyer? ,
Don Ashworth: That's what we're finding.
Mayor Chmiel: Sure it does.
Councilman Workman: Well of course and so now what we're effectively doing is
• saying to the developer have the lawn, have a tree and have it all said and
ready to go. And I'm saying, that a new home buyer's coming in and would like
that as one more option to do himself. Save some money when he can reasonably
get to it. If you hire a sod company to come out and do it, I think you'd
rather say to your neighbors or your relatives and your counsins, come on down
I'm having a sod party or whatever and help me get this done.
Councilman Johnson: This doesn't have to be the whole yard doesn't have to be
sod. Just the city owned portion of your yard. From the boulevard section.
That's what's within the development contract.
Councilman Workman: Okay, well that's unclear to me.
Councilman Johnson: It's stated, set forth in the development contract .
Councilman Workman: You're saying that that little strip of boulevard on these
little lots need $750.00 escrow? '
Mayor Chmiel: And the two trees.
Councilman Workman: Geez, you can get a couple of trees for a lot less. ,
Councilman Johnson: That's why the developer would rather put it in than pay
the $750.00 into the escrow. '
Roger Knutson: The trees are specified they have to be 2 inch caliper. You
. can't go and get those 100 for a buck from the ONR.
3
i
1 City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Mayor Chmiel: Seedlings.
Councilman Workman: I don't see where it says 2 inches either. )
' Roger Knutson: That's in the development contract. This dovetails with the
development contract provisions. I can explain the genesis of this. It 's
' complaints. Someone comes in. Builds a house and you're right. They're short
of money and they can't complete the trees. They can't complete the sodding and
not 60 days go by but perhaps a year. Perhaps 2. Perhaps 3 years go by and I'm
next door and I've done by work and it's a mess up in your yard and you know
what happens then. You call City Hall. You call Paul. You call Jo Ann. Or
someone and they say we need a handle on solving this problem.
' Councilman Johnson: This doesn't have any affect on that though. This is only
the boulevard. What's in the development contract. I did my entire yard, it
took me 3 years before my entire yard. I had one side yard because I was
planting and then replanting everytime it got washed out.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. I think really the sodding within boulevard section is
there so there's no erosion going off onto the street and causing some problems.
' Clogging up sewers. Whatever.
Councilman Johnson: But there's someplace where they put in trees the year
' after. Everybody's planted and then all of a sudden here comes the developer
in. Digs up your sod and plants a tree in your front yard.
' Councilman Workman: It 's just another one of those things.. If you're building
in a development where you're carving it into a wooded area, you don't have this
problem potential but when you're building on a cornfield, you have this problem
and when I come into that home, I'd just as soon have the decision to say where
' I want that tree rather than a developer telling me where I want that tree. But
it's just one more little thing. I don't see this boulevard thing that you're
mentioning. It 's in the development contract. I don't know, it just doesn't
' rub me correctly.
Don Ashworth: I'd also like to bring out that I think it was this past fall.
' The requirement's been in the development contract for several years. You're
right. We have let the developer pass it to the builder and the builder pass it
back to the homeowner and we're finding that some of these are slipping through
so we advised the Council this past fall that we were putting into place an
' adminstrative policy to insure that the development contract language was met.
So the $750.00 requirement, the two trees and the landscape, the sod in the
front, is something that is not new. We've been doing that for this past year.
' We have received some complaints in terms of like the 60 days and I would say
that I've received maybe 5 to 10 phone calls in this area. In each one of those
instances, we were able to give the individual an additional 30 or 60 days.
What I stated to each one, we're not really interested in trying to take away
your $750.00. I mean if it's too hot to take and put down your sod, we will
give you until the fall to do it. If you're trying to get trees in and you
haven't been able to find the species you want or whatever, or you want to do it
yourself and just haven't had time to do it, we'll be lenient with you. We just
want some mechanism in place to insure that it does get completed. So I mean
the ordinance is solely being put in place to cover an adminstrative policy
that's kind of been in place for a year.
4
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
I
Councilman Workman: So the developer will put this $750.00 up and so then he
will be sodding the front boulevard and putting in 1 tree and then he will have
t this $750.00 released?
Don Ashworth: In some instances it works that way but in more instances than
not, Tom Klingelhutz may sell 4 or 5 lots to another builder. Okay, Tom was the
original developer of Pheasant Hills but he's passing on the responsibility to
that next builder to put those trees out in the front. The builder builds a
house for you. Now in that process you want to close on it and he's saying well
part of my contract with you requires you to pay all costs associated with the
permits and other types of activity. We're finding that each one has it pushed
down to the next lower level which ends up as the property owner himself and at
that point in time that's where they come back in and say, we would like
additional time. We will plant the trees or we can find them at K-Mart or
whatever else and still get a 2 inch caliper tree and be far less than $750.00.
We say fine. Go ahead and do it. They plant the trees. The money is released.
Councilman Workman: To who?
Don Ashworth: Back to that owner. The person who actually came up with the
dollars.
Councilman Johnson: See now that doesn't settle with me real well. That the
homeowner ends up putting up the $750.00 because we've got a development
contract with the developer that he puts up that money.
Gary Warren: It's something that's negotiated between the buyers and the
sellers as it's carried through the conditions because the CO won't be issued
until such time as we've got obviously this taken care of so the development
contract, this condition is something that was mentioned, I think in the staff
report. The condition is made aware to any of the people as far as the transfer
of the property is concerned. So they may choose to pass that on to subsequent
people and take $750.00 off the cost of the lot when they sell it or work that
out between themselves. We don't care how they do it but the condition starts
from the beginning and gets carried on. It's really, as Roger said too, with
the demands that we've had to release lots, the CO's and such during the winter
conditions, it's really been something that we've been asked to try to address
so that we don't hold up the CO until we can plant some sod or plant in the late
fall when the conditions aren't right or any of these kinds of things so. '
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? -
Councilman Workman: So it really strictly means the boulevard. ,
Gary Warren: Boulevard. We also on a specific lot basis if there's a drainage
swale that has required through the site plan to be sodded. Some of those
specific things would also be covered by that but on the average lot, it's the
boulevard area and you're two trees. The two trees could run you $400.00 the
way that we get them. '
Councilman Workman: I guess I'm not sure. I think Bill brought this up
initially but I guess I'm unaware of an area or a lot that's been left open for
5 1
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
too long and where it's been a serious problem to put this burden on everybody
else.
' Councilman Johnson: Well the burden's there. All we're doing is making the
rules catch up to what we've been signing contracts with. It gives us more, a
little more enforceability of the contracts that we have with our developers.
Councilman Workman: It just appears that the new homeowners, I firmly believe
that developers pay nothing. I mean they are merely a conduit for whatever
' comes down and you and I and everybody else in the room is the one that's going
to pay for it and it's going to modify and change the way they get into a house
or other, and so we can talk about the big bad developers but the big bad
developer's not going to worry too much about it I don't think. And it could
' impact the buyer of the lot and the property and it's one more thing. I don't
know. I guess not everybody's like us in that they want their yard to look real
nice as soon as possible. There are some customers out there, we need to cover
that by doing this, I guess we do.
Gary Warren: I think that it's consistent with other conditions in the
' development contract. We see all the time where they're asking for lot releases
from the developers so that they can close on a lot so typically their attorneys
will scrutinize a development contract and any other obligations that they can
identify so that they can make the perspective buyers aware of what the
' commitments are and it's at that point in time, just like pulling and paying for
trunk charges for connections and the sewer and water and these other things,
that the buyer would be negotiating with the builder or the developer, whichever
phase he is in the process to say hey. I notice here that there's a $750.00
escrow that has to be posted if we want to close on this lot. That's the
responsibility of the developer and from that point on it's negotiated on who's
$750.00 it is. As you say, all the costs are typically handed down to the
' ultimate buyer's cost anyway because developers aren't absorbing it so it's just
a matter of tracking as to say, did the developer post the $750.00 on his own
and therefore maybe the cost of the lot is $750.00 more. Just how they track
' it, that 's another adminstrative obligation of the individual buyer and the
developer and builders as they go through their transactions. We certainly are
making it public knowledge and on record with development contracts and with the
' separate notices on the building permits that there is this obligation so that
hopefully they don't miss it and then. . .
Councilman Workman: So a buyer would know that if he wasn't real, he would know
that if he wasn't looking real carefully, that if he went ahead and put all this
in anyway and was probably charged by the developer and the builder $750.00 in
the cost of the lot and he ended up putting it in anyway thinking that was what
' his responsibility was, that he would get the money back or the developer would
get the money back?
' Gary Warren: If the developer, let's say that the buyer didn't realize that it
was a developer obligation and they wanted to pull a CO and we had issued the CO
because the developer had posted $750.00, and then the resident still, presuming
he doesn't know all this, goes in in the spring and plants the trees and the sod
' and we release the $750.00 to the developer and he doesn't reimburse the
property owner for the work that he did to meet the condition, I guess that's
probably the down side of the situation but that would take I think quite a lot
of, you know there's enough steps in the process where we're doing what we can
6
r
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
to make the public aware that that condition is on there and I think. . .
Councilman Workman: Well I would say that the developer would win in that
situation all the way around.
Mayor Chmiel: Oh sure, he would. There's no question.
•
Gary Warren: The developers are trying to get out of it though as soon as
possible. The developer's interest is to get the CO and move onto the next lot.
And to do that, I think his interest is to extract his money, anything that's
being held in escrow and actually leave that obligation with the homeowner. The
homeowner's the person who's usually beating on our door to close because he
wants to move in so he's a very willing participant and say yeah, okay. If
we've got to give $750.00 so I can meet this condition for now to close, it's
not that, it's worth something to him.
Don Ashworth: I think there's an equity position here as well in that you look
at Western Hills area. Tom Klingelhutz. As a part of every lot in that area,
planted boulevard trees and the effects of that planting today can very easily
be seen. That area has mature boulevard trees throughout the Western Hills ,
area. Turn around and look at some of the more recent subdivisions, even in the
Chan Vista area, and you'll find a very spotting number of trees in that area
and I think that future generations are going to be the poorer for that.
Councilman Johnson: I know over on Kurver's Point, whatever it is there, a
friend of mine lives over there. I worked with him on soccer. One of our
{ coaches and he's got no boulevard sod. No trees in his front yard as of the
last time I was there and when it rains, his front yard goes in the street.
Councilman Workman: I didn't mean to drag this on all night but I just wanted
to raise those points and I guess I'd move approval.
Councilman Johnson: Second.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve the final
reading of Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Amend Section 20-92 regarding
Certificate of Occupancy by adding provisions for landscaping requirements. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
G. APPROVE COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT WITH MOT AND EDEN PRAIRIE FOR SIGNALIZATION '
OF TRUNK HIGHWAY 5 AT DELL ROAD.
Councilwoman Dimler: When I was reading through this, it has to do with the ,
cooperative agreement with MnDot and Eden Prairie for a signal on TH 5 at Dell
Road. I wanted to know the history of this since I haven't heard about this.
Who determined that there should be a light there or who wants it there? Gary,
do you know?
Gary Warren: The MnDot plan and the Environmental Impact work, actually some of
it with the TH 212 work, we've looked at the interchanges and the intersections
and the arterial connections with Dell Road through Eden Prairie and traffic
studies were done by MnDot to arrive at the signalization.
7
i
ICity Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Councilwoman Dimler: There's a necessity for it there?
Gary Warren: It's an important one to Chanhassen as well because of the
' connection to TH 212 on the east side and the connection into our business parks
there. I think the plan from Eden Prairie's perspective is to push Dell Road
down to TH 212 on the south and to get it over the tracks to connect with their
road to the north.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I won't argue with that but I just, I guess the
point is that a lot of people are saying you know, they're expanding TH S so we
can move the traffic faster then we put up all these lights.
Mayor Chmiel: You know, believe this or not, since just the finishing of Eden
' Prairie, I find that the flow of traffic right now is good.
Councilwoman Dimler: It is better.
Mayor Chmiel: It 's fantastic in comparison to what it was, even when they
weren't preparing or putting some in.
' Councilwoman Dimler: But you can get too many lights.
Mayor Chmiel: And I agree but they synchronize those lights accordingly so if
' you keep a specific speed you can make each one of those. Unless you go on the
Audubon.
' Councilwoman Dimler: And if you don't make one, you don't make any of them.
That's the problem.
Mayor Chmiel: That's right. I'm absolutely amazed the way the flow goes right
now but it bogs down when you're coming home a little bit.
Councilman Johnson: If you're late you don't make any of them. If you're in a
' hurry, you make them all.
Mayor Chmiel: What you have to do is leave between 6:30 and quarter to 7:00 in
' the morning.
Councilwoman Dimler: I just wanted to know who initiated it. So I move
approval. I don't have any problems with the contract itself.
' Councilman Workman: Second.
' Resolution $90-77: Councilwoman Disler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the Cooperative Agreement with HnDot and Eden Prairie for signalization
of Trunk Highway 5 at Dell Road. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
' VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
AWARD OF BIDS: 1990 SEALCOATING PROJECT NO. 90-11.
Gary Warren: The bids for this project were opened today at 10:00. We had two J
bidders. Allied Blacktop who was the low bidder has done the City's last three
8
' 1
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
projects. They're real familiar with our standards and requirements. They were
{ very close to the engineer's estimate. About $9,000.00 below it in fact so we
are recommending award of bids for the 1990 sealcoat, this is for a street
repair program to Allied Blacktop in the amount of $110,209.00.
Mayor Chmiel: Gary, I just wanted to bring out one thing. I know we've been
getting these ninth hour situations. Twelfth hour. Thirteenth hour. And I
think that if we don't have the bids in our packets, I think it should be laid
over to the next particular meeting because sometimes these bids take a little
longer consideration. This one doesn't but I'd like to see that done. If we
can get those bids in in our packet at that specific time rather than getting it
at the Council meeting.
Gary Warren: I appreciate the concern there and we try to avoid this as well.
On the sealcoating project we've got a tough weather constraint by trying to get
this done by mid-August and you'll see in the Harvey-O'Brien one I guess the
residents were trying to keep that project rolling but we certainly understand
and we'll comply as best we can.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Any discussion? Hearing none, I'll make a motion that we
accept the 1990 street repair program with blacktopping. Low bidder of
$110,209.00.
Councilman Johnson: Second. '
Resolution $90-78: Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to award the
bid for the 1990 Sealcoating Project No. 90-11 to Allied Blacktop in the amount
of $110,209.00. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
AWARD OF BIDS: HARVEY/0'BRIEN SANITARY SEWER EXTENSION IMPROVEMENT PROJECT
90-5.
Gary Warren: The bids were received July 6th on this project. We had good '
bids. The low bidder was F.F. Jedlicki. Frank Jedlicki. Local contractor
who's very experienced in this type of project and I think is a real good
selection for dealing with the project in a sensitive area like this. The bid
was a little bit over the engineer's estimate by about $4,000.00. However,
they're very competitive bids and it seemed a price contract so we hope to work
with the contractor to keep close within the range of our original estimates on
the project here. Again, F.F. Jedlicki is a low bidder at $34,637.80 and we're
recommending award of bid to him in that amount. _
Resolution $90-79: Councilwoman Disler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to '
award the bid for the Harvey/O'Brien Sanitary Sewer_Extension Improvement
Project No. 90-5 to F.F. Jedlicki in the amount of $34,637.80. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
RECOMMENDATION FROM THE COMMUNITY CENTER TASK FORCE. '
Jeff Bros: Good evening again. I think you all have the feasibility study that
was done by the Springsted group. At our last task force meeting we were
fortunate enough to have them come and explain it all to us. The task force
9
11
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
then met again after considering all of this and re-reading it and going through
a lot of the information that we had already gathered on the community center
and out of the whole Springsted study we decided that a covered ice surface was
probably not a good idea at this time. We know there's a need for ice surface
in town but to spend the money to cover it and have an indoor facility, we just
couldn't justify it at this time. Therefore, our recommendation has been
' modified slightly. It is to build the base complex as we have recommended
previously but at this time omitting the covered ice and putting in just a good
outdoor ice facility with refrigeration in it. By adding the refrigeration to
it we can hopefully, of course depending on weather, extend the ice surface
' season up to about 2 months on either side. It would control the surface of the
ice so that hockey games or figure skating or whatever would have a much
cleaner, much safer, faster ice surface for those uses. And then in the event
that in the future that covering it is deemed feasible, it's easily done and the
equipment is already in place to do it. I don't know if you need to see, we
brought down one of the drawings, the renditions from before.
Mayor Chmiel: Why don't you do that Jeff.
Jeff Bros: Of course this is one of the older drawings so it's not absolutely
' accurate but as you can see here, again the school is here and the proposed
building here. Again here's the ice arena as it was earlier proposed. The ice
surface would be again in the same position. It connects to the building there
' but it would not be enclosed. Again it allows us that in the future it could be
deemed feasible and necessary, it would be either bubbled or an actual structure
put over it . We're open to that and at this time it's not even worth talking
about. Part of the recommendation also is to purchase, it's approximately 3 1/2
acres of the Hanson property on the north side of the school property line which
is currently right about here. This way any additional space that is taken up
by the facility, this whole green space could be shifted to the north a little
' bit. It would actually add a considerable amount of land to the park surface.
Any field placements that you see here are just shown to just show size. Not
necessarily final placement but we had Mike Lehmeyer we just want to get a rough
idea of what we could do with that green space and how useable it really would
be. The tennis courts are in the same location. Things could be worked around
that without any added expense there. We feel that this is a very workable,
very useful center for the City. We think that it will become the focal point
for the City. Festivities like the 4th of July party up here over this past
weekend just sort of point out how much the city needs to be brought together.
You know we've talked so many times about how diversified our city is with the
' school districts and Excelsior and Minnetonka and all that go on and we're drawn
apart. We feel that this center can also help bring Chanhassen back together and
create a real positive thing in this town. Again, going through the Springsted
numbers on Appendix 0, about 10 or 12 pages in, you'll see that their numbers
are based on the school site and a base type facility with or without ice or a
premium facility. We never at any time intended to build a premium facility but
they did want to put those numbers in just to give us something to go by. Our
' idea of a base type facility would be similar to construction close to what the
Eden Prairie Center is now. So it's a good useable family oriented center.
We're not building a Flagship Athletic Club here. We have no intention of doing
that. We want it family oriented. The numbers there with ice at $4,105,000.00
roughly and without at $3,105,000.00. Some good estimates on doing the
refrigerated ice would be somewhere halfway inbetween. It'd be where we'd be
anyhow. So that's kind of what we're looking at. We feel that this is a useful
' 10
I
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
project. Again we think it will help to unite the city. We think it will give
our children a good safe alternative place to go. We think that the school will
benefit from it. The school system is excited about it. Our children are
excited about it. Our parents are excited about it. Again, we just hope that
the City Council will allow it to go on to the November ballot and let the
taxpayers in this town decide if they want to absorb this or not. Appendix D
also shows rough estimated yearly tax increases that would be needed for this
facility. We think it's an item that the taxpayers in this town need to make a
decision on whether they want it or not. Do you have any questions? We have
other people from the task force here who'd be more than happy to answer them if
I can't.
Councilman Johnson: Jeff? ,
Jeff Bros: Yes.
Councilman Johnson: This does include a senior's facility in here? '
Jeff Bros: The center includes several, in this area next to the gym. They've
got it marked a social area that was more than likely upstairs from the locker
rooms with large meeting rooms you know ideally with moveable walls. Partitions.
Things like that so we could have a designated area that they could use.
Mayor Chmiel: That would be upstairs? i
Jeff Bros: Upstairs.
Councilman Johnson: We're just completing a senior's task force needs
assessment . Should be done here in the next month. Preliminary thing is that a
permanent senior center is something that looks like it might be needed here in
this town.
Jeff Bros: And that was one of the groups that we were keying in on. ..
Councilwoman Dimler: Jeff, I was not real sure what the final plan was. Do we
have a room in there that's large enough for let's say for large gatherings?
For rental for weddings or whatever. '
Jeff Bros: This whole social area, depending on how you could make walls move,
partitions and such, would be entirely feasible. Again, as to actual size
hasn't been determined yet. It's going to be sitting on top of 4 racquetball
courts, it ought to be a pretty good.sized room.
Resident: Jeff. ..senior site is 4,500 square feet. I think the State Building '
Code addresses the occupancy of about 15 square feet per person for receptions
so we'd be looking at approximately 300 people could.. .use that space.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, thank you. ,
Mayor Chmiel: Do you have someone else who would like to say something? i
Jeff Bros: Okay, thank you.
1
11
11
IICity Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Chris Polster: I'm Chris Polster. I live at 8020 Hidden Court and I would just
like to encourage the City to very seriously consider this as well. Speaking as
a parent who's been deeply involved in recreation programs, I see the situation
as being very desperate. It really is. The kids community population is
growing so much speaking for basketball alone, we just didn't have enough room
for all the kids. Speaking as a business person, we need places to meet in this
city as well. We really only have one place to meet right now. We'll have
another as the other hotel room is coming in but we need more places. And
speaking as a person who also participates in adult recreation, I need a place
to play too. Okay, I'd just encourage you to really give us a chance to do what
we think we need to do. Thanks.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Chris.
Wanda Beiler: I'm Wanda Beiler. I live at 910 Penamint Court in Chanhassen and
I would also encourage you to consider the community center mainly for two
' reasons. I guess it boils down to one as a parent with two children. We need
facilities to have the sports activities available. We're very sports minded
people. We like to see that and it 's kind of sad to go to another community on
a Sunday afternoon to enjoy a swimming pool or to enjoy something else only to
' find 2 or 3 of our neighbors down the street doing the same thing. And the
other reason I guess as a member of the Chanhassen Jaycees, my husband is a
member and President of the Snowmobile Club in town. We need meeting rooms. We
' are very limited. Right now the Jaycees meet in the Fire Hall in the basement.
It gets a little hectic when some of the sirens, not sirens but the
announcements and things come on during our meetings and my husband also would
like to have meeting rooms available. That's what we would like to see.
' Another reason I thought of here tonight too and that is that the classrooms in
the school are very crowded and I think this would really help to eliminate
that. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Wanda.
Barb Rose: Barb Rose, 6771 Chaparral Lane. I guess I'd just like to add a
little bit to what's already been said. I really see a strong need in the
community. As a parent with a son who's very active in sports, I meet a lot of
' other parents in this town and I feel there's a large, large group of people who
are in support of a community center. We desperately need sports facilities for
our children. I like to think of this not only in terms of now but down the
road. I feel very, very strongly that our children need places to go when they
get to be 13, 14, 15 years old other than Filly's playing pinball or anything
like that. I'd much rather have a facility to send them to and say hey. Why
don't you get a friend and go down and play racquetball this afternoon. I think
it's very important that we have a responsibility as parents to provide a
facility, a place for our children to be safe. I think too the meeting rooms
are very essential in this town. I've been up at the school and I've seen the
senior citizens in the lunchroom at the elementary school for a place to meet
and I think that's a shame. I think this community needs to offer them
something better than a lunchroom. So I'd like to really encourage you to allow
the people of this community to decide. I think it's their right. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else?
' 12
I
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Bill Loebl: Bill Loebl. 7197 Frontier Trail. I do not belong to the Community I
f Center Task Force so I don't have access to the latest up to date information
but my information comes primarily from the local newspapers. Articles which
t were published about 3 or 4 weeks ago. Mr. Mayor and members of the City
Council. The idea of a community center is a-good one but I feel and so does
everyone else I've talked with, that the idea is premature and that it is better
to wait until we can afford to build a decent full scale facility and not go
II
into debt running it. There's discussion regarding the possibility of the HRA
putting in a library where the Pony Express is located with meeting rooms which
could be used by the various community groups which some of my previous speakers
II
have mentioned. The independent consultant advised you that the operation of
the community center would result in an annual deficit of $34,000.00 or more
indefinitely for a bare bones facility which we the taxpayers would have to
subsidize. This money should and could be better used for contingencies of II
greater priorities. We are not anti-children or anti-activities but priorities
must be kept in their proper order. Citizens are not interested in having their
taxes go up as evidenced by the large number of people who came to the Board of
II
Equalization to have the valuation of their homes lowered. Chanhassen students
will want to be with their Chaska friends possibly in the new Chaska community
center scheduled to open this fall. Looking to the future and a proposed middle
II
school on Route 5 between Audubon Avenue and Route 41, a community center in
that area would be a better, much better location. A swimming pool and other
facilities would be more compatible with a junior high school. Downtown is very
crowded now. If a community center is put near the elementary school, the area II
would be even more crowded. Parking is a problem. It is practically impossible
to drive on Laredo when there is any school activity going on. With a community
t center there, it would be totally impossible. There are about 11 acres
II
i available I believe and locating it- in that area would eliminate any future
expansion for the elementary school and a community center. I am sure that .
you're also aware of the fact that Eden Prairie and Plymouth both with much
II
larger populations than Chanhassen are operating community centers with ongoing
deficits and it should be interesting for you to watch how the Chaska facilities
will do financially when it opens this fall. So far you have shown great fiscal
responsibility in keeping expenses for the City to the essentials and as a II
result our taxes did not have to be raised. I do hope you will continue in this
vein. In view of all the above, it would seem more logical to wait until we as
a City are in a better financial position to build and maintain a structure we I
could all be proud of and which would be self supporting without becoming a
burden to us taxpayers. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Bill. Is there anyone else? Hearing none, we'll bring 1
it back here. Any discussion?
Councilman Johnson: Well, I'll start it off. I think that placing this for a
II
referendum item for the full citizens to speak out and tell us what they want is
a good idea. Especially if we do it in November where the costs are very
minimal. We've already got the election judges and everything else. It's just
II
a matter of adding. What is the cost Don for adding an item to the November
election? -
Don Ashworth: As long as the item is a part of the election itself, it's solely II
i. ' the cost of publishing. You still have the ballot. Very minimal. $100.00-
$200.00.
II
13
II
IICity Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
11 Councilman Johnson: A couple hundred dollars.
Don Ashworth: You already have the ballots. It's an additional line being
' printed on there. You have the judges.
Councilman Johnson: And those are fixed costs that won't vary whether you add
one more item to it or not?
Don Ashworth: That's correct.
Councilman Johnson: Okay. I think another cost will be the cost of summarizing
the material and putting out information so that the citizens have information
to base their judgment on. Whatever staff costs there is for attending public
meetings and whatever. Similar to what we did in a hurry a few years back but
now we'll have months to prepare versus what was actually only a couple, it was
8 weeks from the time, if I remember right the last time. Yeah, that's months
but not like 6 months like we have now, or 5 months. I think that in the next 5
months we can do a lot of education here to get the pros and cons and have a lot
of public meetings and a lot of discussion with this and we'll have a very wise
taxpayer to make a vote on it in November.
Mayor Chmiel: Is that it?
Councilwoman Dimler: I have a few questions of Don too. Don, there was a
concern that this would be pushing our bonding limit to the hilt and I was just
wondering if in your opinion there are other pressing concerns that should have
priority.
Don Ashworth: I'm not aware of any GO type of issue, general obligation that we
would be looking to. I'm aware that some have stated that they'd like to see
' trails re-presented but I'm not aware of any other type of needs. I would
anticipate at some point in time we will look to an additional addition
associated with City Hall. But I see that as being, I don't want to say a
' minimal expense but probably into a $400,000.00-$500,000.00 bracket.
Councilwoman Dimler: Are you at all concerned about pushing our bonding limit?
I " Mayor Chmiel: For an emergency or something? Is that what you're saying?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes.
' Don Ashworth: Well, with the growth that the City has seen I talked with
Councilman Workman earlier in the day and I used the example that I believe 3
' years ago we had looked to a debt limit of about 3 million dollars and at that
point in time the voters had approved the addition on the Fire Station in
southern Chanhassen, etc. for 2 million dollars. By rights that should have
taken us down to a debt limitation of 1 million dollars and hypothetically we
' could have said the same type of thing. We're taking it down to the very
bottom. What has to be remembered is that, in that calculation determining your
bond limit, is a percent of the overall value of the community so each year that
your overall bonding limit is increasing and at the same point in time you're
paying off a portion of your debt so $400,000.00-$500,000.00 is dropping off of
the schedule so instead of having a net limitation of 1 million dollars, we're
looking currently to a net limitation of 5 million. It's reasonable, assuming J
14
I
II
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
II
that this would be approved by the voters and it would be roughly g y 4 million, you
might take the position that well we only have a million dollars left in our
authority. Well, that would be true if we were immediately going back and
II
I looking to build something. But again, if you went over an additional 2-3 year
period of time as has transpired since 1988, you probably would be back to that
4 or 5 million dollar figure again. I
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. Well, that leads me to my second question. If you
were given a worse case scenario and that would mean that the future does not II pay out what we're forecasting as far as membership and revenues coming in, and
let's say that our operating losses exceed $100,000.00 per year which could
happen and in fact it happened in Eden Prairie. Do you see that the City of
Chanhassen could shoulder such a burden? I
Don Ashworth: We're looking to approximate 3 1/2 million dollar operating
budget. $100,000.00 deficit is not something that you take lightly but in
II
comparison to your overall expenditures, I mean it 's not something that would
devastate the City. Other areas would naturally have to give to cover that or
more logically, you would try to minimize those losing type of programs or
activities.
II
Councilwoman Dimler: Would you be increasing the taxes to cover that?
Don Ashworth: That would be an option that the City Council at that point in II
time might have to grapple with. I would anticipate that Councilmembers would
remind me of this discussion and say. i
Councilwoman Dimler: It'd be in the Minutes.
Don Ashworth: That they would not want to see a property tax increases as a I
result of some type of staff error in projections. I believe that
Mr. MacGilivarey has done a very good job in terms of estimating the overall
revenues, expenditures for this type of a facility and I guess I feel II comfortable with it.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, good. That's what I wanted to know. Okay. So with II those comments I guess my comments are that I really do think that a community
center is a good idea for Chanhassen. I do see the need for meeting rooms and
facilities for large events. Gymnasium space, swimming and other recreational
facilities. I'd also like to see something that brings our community together
II
as Jeff indicated but I still am of the conviction that in order to do that,
that we should not put the facility in the downtown area. I can see us getting
some acreage where we can expand beyond the bare bones facility and also II eliminate the lack of parking space at the facility by the elementary school is
plagued with. It's my opinion that a middle school is more compatible with the
community center and that we still will have the advantage of working with the II school district and that to me means that this facility is really several years
down the road. I do want to see that it is a community center and not a special
interest center for a few. And I think that the indifference that was shown by
the lack of attendance at our public information meetings last spring still
II
makes me doubt that there really is a high demand for the facility. I think
T that the large attendance of taxpayers at the Board of Equalization just 2
months ago also reinforces the idea that people think their taxes are too high.
. I think it's reasonable to see how Chaska's facility goes first. Do they get II
15
■
,' City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
I their anticipated memberships? What are their operating deficits and I think we
can learn from their situation. I also know that the support of the task force
members was not unanimous and that the majority of the Park and Recreation
' Commission at this time do not support the facility. I'd like to mention that
there was a mailing that was put out done in the task force name and I was not
aware that it was truly representing the task force. I have been out of town
' but my husband didn't get notified either and he was on the task force so again
and it was a very selective mailing. I don't know who was or what the criteria
was for you to be on that mailing but I know that the majority of the citizens
didn't get it. So I think plus putting it on the November ballot makes it again
' a political football and that is a situation that even most of the task force
members wanted to avoid. But with Don's assurance that we're not committing
financial suicide, I can see. . . Again it isn't going to cost much extra. My
' only concern is that the citizens of Chanhassen can base their decisions on
facts and not on misinformation that so often happens in referendums. So to me
the crux of the matter is this. Do the residents of Chanhassen want to pay for
' a community center? To build it and to operate it. . .at least 4.5 million for a
bare bones facility. And number two, that it's going to have a yearly operating
deficit as the paper stated of some $34,000.00 and perhaps more. Those are my
concerns.
' Councilman Johnson: Ursula, the $34,000.00 was with covered ice. $27,000.00
loss for the covered ice. -
' Mayor Chmiel: That's right. $27,500.00 as opposed to the balance.
Councilwoman Dimler: Whatever. I just want the public to be aware that there
twill be a yearly operating deficit.
Councilman Johnson: And it's more like 3 1/2 million, not 4 1/2 million.
Councilwoman Dimler: Depending on what we get.
' Mayor Chmiel: 3.105 as opposed to 4.105.
Councilman Johnson: Right but there will be extra because of the refrigerated
ice they're saying so maybe 3 1/2.
Mayor Chmiel: Right and that would raise that portion.
' Councilman Johnson: Yeah.
Councilwoman Dimler: Well, those are just my general concerns.
Councilman Johnson: I'm just concerned about getting the facts straight.
Councilwoman Dimler: Right. Get your numbers right Jay.
' Mayor Chmiel: Thomas?
' Councilman Workman: Ursula, you get me way over on one side and then you're
over on the other side. You jump far.
16
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Councilwoman Dimler: I didn't jump.
Councilman Workman: I think your comments were very appropriate. Kind of a
buyer beware situation as we head into this. I am delighted that we got the
Springsted report. I think it showed some things. Had we gone to a referendum
in the spring we might have gotten a different bill of goods. I think the
Council showed a lot of wisdom in choosing to not take the easy route,
although I'm not sure which is the easy route here. I think it made some
mis-truths out of some things that we've been hearing in regards to ice being a
profit maker, etc. and who knows. When you get this all in the ground you're
going to learn all sorts of other things. But I think we've got a lot of facts
from a reputable firm that has told us the bare facts about what we can expect.
They've got more options in here than a new Cadillac. I too have concerns about
our bonding capacity. It's real difficult in a situation like this to explain
the position you're in when you're an elected official and you're being asked
for a very large item that we all want. I think everybody wants but you're
tugged by all the volumes and facts and information that make you either
fiscally conservative or liberal or somewhere inbetween. I consider myself
something of a conservative and so it's very easy to say no. No, don't spend
the money. Keep it in the piggy bank and out of the banker's bank or wherever
and it 's very tough to stick your neck out and so waiting is very safe for us to
do. Financially. I don't think by any stretch of the imagination this is the
perfect facility but I think it outweighs, currently we do need facilities. We
do need gyms, etc. so while it's not the perfect facility I'm not sure what that
is either. And I think things are going to constantly get more and more
expensive. Land acquisition wherever that is. We don't have any real good
ideas about where it should be but we know, I think that we potentially need
some of these facilities. It's going to be very difficult for us once this
passes, if this passess, to continue on the string of what do we have 8 years of
reducing taxes in relationship to our growth, etc. . We're not going to be able
to say that and so that's, we've kind of had a lot of pride in being able to say
that but maybe the other taxing entities out to get into that string and allow
us to have a little flexibility of spending some of this money. I'm nervous in
approving something like this tonight simply because there's so many questions
left to be answered. The financing. How much TIF can we use. If it were up to
me, I would use all TIF and reward the citizens of the community for what we did
to them with the downtown street. I'm nervous about the city school connection
and where one ends and where another begins. The perfect marriage says that
we'll all give and take and we'll have a good time and everything else. I don't
know where all that will, where does our authority come in? I'm assuming we
have a better than even share of the authority. Will the referendum and the
cost, the bonding take into account the purchase of the property to the
north? Is that included in this? I'm getting a nod yes. 8i11 Loebl, I think
your comments sum up just like Ursula's, very well the concerns of many of us in
regards to our financial stability. I know our bonding and our accountants and
auditors have given us an outstanding bill of health. We are in good shape.
And that's been the questions I've been asking Don Ashworth in regards to what,
how far should we stick out necks out here and I do feel confident that we can
weather something like that. Is this the proper facility. As you say again, I
don't know. What I would like to see is an official City Council information II
sheet on the facts and figures of what the consequences of this are. How much
is the total bonding? Where's the money coming from? What's the total cost?
What the school site impacts will be as indicated by my comments? Who's got the
authority? What the actual make-up of the facility will be. I think we could
17
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
get volumes of information from Chaska on, I think they had an 80 member task
force from every group in the City to find that out and they went all through it
and went all through it. They may not be interested in giving us that
information since we might be their competitors but primarily what the
consequences will be in regards to taxes. Increase in taxes and/or TIF. I grew
up in Chaska and I drive by their facility every day. It is unbelieveable but I
' would prefer not to go down to Chaska and I would prefer not to send my kids
down to Chaska either for school or recreation if I had a choice. That says
nothing about Chaska other than I'd like the convenience of shopping for
groceries, going to school and participating in athletics here in the community.
' I think the community center is something that we can use. I'm not so sure as
Jeff and I talked about the unity that we have on the City Council to say let's
go for it. All for one, one for all and make this a real special place. I don't
' know that we're doing that. I'm not in the habit of predicting elections
but I am willing to allow the voters to decide at this time what they want to
do. If we can lay it out with enough details for this Council to be happy that
the proper information is one piece of paper at least so that the voters are
' making wise decisions and tax paying revolters versus the community center
proponents and as soon as the meeting's over get to their perspective corners
and come out and pitch the thing. I don't like to vote for things with a
' negative connotation saying yeah, okay. The voters should decide because if I
don't let them decide I'm a communist. I think they have that right . This is a
big question. Too big for me and I like to go into things with a positive
' attitide. Saying yes, I'm for it and that's why I think a referendum is a good
idea. Not yes, let's have a referendum so that I can prove the voters wrong. I
think we can do it. I think there's still an awful lot of questions that need
to be painted in this process for it to be fair and honest. And with one final
' note should this referendum not fail, I would not be interested in another
referendum in the spring. And probably not next fall. Am I still going to be
on the Council?
' Mayor Chmiel: Yes. You've got another year to go besides that.
' Councilwoman Dimler: Besides if it fails, you won't have to vote.
Councilman Johnson: You've got 2 years yet.
' Councilman Workman: Right. But what I'm saying is, should this thing fail, I
don't mean to put all the eggs in one basket but I think the biggest fear that
voters and taxpayers have is that you might as well vote for the darn thing
because it's going to keep coming back and coming back and they're going to
punch us in the teeth until we get it back. And next spring would be too
premature. So anyway, it's something that I understand, recognizing taxpayers'
concerns and certainly not discounting any of those concerns because we do have
a lot of things going on and we do have some tax complaints but those people
will have to speak and let the games begin.
Councilwoman Dimler: Light the torch?
Mayor Chmiel: Light the torch and run,. Is that it?
Councilman Workman: Yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: All I can say is Amen.
' 18
1 -
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
I
Councilman Johnson: Then I move approval.
Councilwoman Dimler: Do you want to speak?
Mayor Chmiel: I didn't ask for it yet. No I guess with what Tom said and some
of the things that Ursula said, I basically fully agree with it. I even looked
at it from another aspect with the potential of maybe not going fully with what
the hockey issue. I was looking at the two different things. One, the swimming
pool possibly to have at this particular facility plus meeting rooms and gym.
From looking at it from that aspect and checking with two other cities who have
pools, it's very equitable. Very profitable for them. Not enclosing it at this
particular time. Something like you're talking with the hockey. That was '
another thing that I thought about. Bonding capacity is one of my real concerns
and I asked a question of Don. What in the event of an emergency that we would
have to have or if something were to happen, what could we do and we couldn't do
much. I too feel that the voters should have their say whether it's needed or
not. But I also feel that at one given time, was it 3 years ago we had the last
referendum for it and it was voted down. I felt the voters had something to say
and just as Tom has said, it comes back again and again and again and that has
been done within the City so much, I don't like that aspect of it. Once an
issue comes to pass and it's voted upon, those people should be the people that
have their opinion as to whether they wanted it or not. I don't like playing
games. I never have and I think as I look at this, I'm not too much in favor of
it being located where the proposal is within City Park. I'm not in full
agreement there at all. I think it should be somewhere but possibly not there.
I .
I look at it from the aspect of total number of vehicles. Traffic flow. We've
got enough traffic flow the way it is. So to eliminate some of that of course
we have to move it to another area. One of the other things too that I had
thought about if we put this on the referendum, I'd like it stated in a way that
people exactly know what it is. Not do you want a community center or don't you
want a community center. I'd like it to be indicated do you want a community
center and will you pay additional taxes for this center because as I mentioned
before in all the door knocking that I've done and people who have called me and
I have had more than 5, maybe more than 20 to 1 calling and saying they don't
think a community center should be built yet. I feel that if we were to
progress with this and knowing that we do need these kinds of things, I'm not
opposed to it. I come up with plenty ideas from time to time and I talk with
Don and I say, what about Pony Express for the elderly. Having them utilize
that particular facility. Or if Pauly's not using their on-sale liquor, use
that area. Or Bandimere Park that we have with the house that's there, the farm
house and also a barn. Renovating that. Looking at that. Seeing if it could
be done. Of course as we look at it, it can't. You come up with some silly
ideas and some thoughts of how can we do the best job we can for the City but
yet keep the taxes at a level that everyone feels comfortable with. As most of
you know, within the last 2 years taxes have gone down -and everyone likes that
except for some that we had at this last meeting. The last Board of Adjustments
and Appeal. We had approximately 140 some people pounding that right up there
and were not very happy. Things we should do as Tom indicated, summarize this
entirely. Put all the facts there. Let the people become aware of it and
I don't feel comfortable in saying we should go to referendum this evening. I
want to see all those things put together. We look at it and then move from
there. Some of the other things too. With numbers of children and I know that
we've become a very prolific community which is neat because kids is what makes
19 '
t
11 City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
•
this world go round. It really does. I know I've been involved in youth sports
in my younger days for 10 years in managing Little Leagues and Legion ball so
I've had my parts involved in that. Also as a Cub Scout master so I know what
it is to keep these kids going and keep them active and finding someplace for
them to get this done. But I guess right now as I just mentioned, I would like
to see all these things put together to see what we're talking. The City park
as I say is not one of the locations I feel it should be. I think it should be
somewhere else. Maybe at the proposed junior high when that comes in. Acquire
that property now and have it for that as well as community center. It's going
to be a few more dollars but I think we have to think ahead with a lot of these
' things too. So with that, I would sort of make that motion.
Councilwoman Rimier: What motion is that?
' Mayor Chmiel: To review, to have Don pull together all the stats that Tom
and Ursula and even Jay has said.
Councilwoman Dimler: And what's in this report .
Mayor Chmiel: Plus what's in Springsted's. And show even the estimated market
' value of homes plus the estimated tax increases. We have to be very careful
with the school district in working with TIF because that could work against the
school district too. If we move too far to the other side, it would affect our
fiscal. . .so we have to watch where our dollars are going and how they're being
spent accordingly. One of the other things that I looked at on the debt
analysis for the City, I find that some of this unused debt capacity, I'm
finding some soft years that they're coming in here too which could cause a
' problem. I think we have to look at that overall picture. So with that, as I
say, these are the things that I'd like to see pulled together prior to putting
it to a referendum and I'm not opposed to the people voting on this again. But
' as Tom said, if it goes it goes. If it doesn't, I don't think it should come
back to the Council for a long while. I think population is what we need really
in this community to make this the kind of a center that we really need plus not
' costing us taxing dollars.
Councilwoman Dimler: I think you have a good idea but I'd like to know how are
we going to get this out to the public. Are you proposing a mailing or in the
' paper or?
Mayor Chmiel: I would suggest that we do one thing is to put it in the
' newspaper and I realize not all the people are going to see it. If we send a
mailing, we have exactly how many homes? 24-26 hundred? That's right. 3,500.
' Councilman Johnson: It costs $600.00 or something for a mailing I think it's
at.
Don Ashworth: I think it would run about $800.00-$900.00.
Mayor Chmiel: Well that might be something maybe we should do as well.
' Councilman Johnson: From the City Council? A lot of cities have a quarterly or
bi-monthly or monthly city newsletter they send out. You know Chaska does it
quarterly.
20
1
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
I/
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, we've talked about that too. II
Councilman Johnson: Yeah. I mean that would be a great first issue.
Councilman Workman: Jim Mady already started it. II
Councilman Johnson: Don, before I second your motion I need some clarification. I
I've heard two different things from you when you're talking about your motion.
One is not to approve putting it to the voters but waiting until you get the
information together.
I
Mayor Chmiel: Today. I'm not saying that.
Councilman Johnson: Okay, you're saying approve a November referendum and get I
all this information together.
Mayor Chmiel: No, I'm not saying approve the November referendum until we get
I
all the data pulled together first. This can come back to the Council again.
Come to a vote for that.
Councilman Johnson: We can approve that we have. . . I
Mayor Chmiel: I would move it that way though Jay.
Councilman Johnson: Okay. So then I'm not going to second it because what I II
would like to see is that we say okay, folks. In November we're going to have
the referendum and we want to put all this information you want and I want and
II
everybody here wants. We're going to put that together and we're going to get it
out to you. If that information doesn't come together, we have the option of
pulling it off the referendum too. If for some reason we don't get the II information we want but I see no reason delaying the decision to let the people
express their opinions in November to wait for this information. That seems
like just a delaying tactic. My experience is completely the opposite of yours.
I almost have 100% of the people that have called me on this issue who have said
II
they want a community center. A lot of them voted against it previously for the
simple reason of it's location and that they are now in support and they want
the opportunity to cast a vote on this and I want to give them that opportunity.
II
So since you haven't had a second, I will move approval of a November
referendum.
Mayor Chmiel: We didn't, you were the one that was going to second it. I'm I
waiting to see if we have another second.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess at this point I have a question too because I'm a
II
little bit confused. I have said that I really want the public to know the
facts and I can see the Council putting out something and somebody challenging
that. That that's not factual. Okay, that's probably more than likely to
II
happen so at that point if we haven't approved the referendum, we still have
that option to do that. Is that what you're saying Don? That's why you don't
want.
IIMayor Chmiel: That's part of it. Because I don't know what those stats are
going to be and I want to make sure what I see is going to be good for the City
and good for everybody that lives here. I
21
II
IICity Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. I think we've got like from the Springsted report,
the two facts we do have is it's going to be expensive. We know that and we
also know that it's going to operate at a deficit. Whatever that number is
' going to be, we don't know for sure. I think if the people just know those two
things, that's getting some of the facts out.
Councilman Johnson.: But we don't have to delay this decision to, I mean we've
got the data. It's a matter of putting the data together. I don't think
there's any necessity in further delaying the decision, are we or are we not
going to have a referendum on this issue. I see us going to September when
' we're getting into the middle of election politics. I see us going to September
when we're getting into the middle of election politics to make this decision
because it's going to take a little while to get this information together. I'd
rather have this decision made well before we start election politics in
election year while it's still a neutral decision and nobody's running for
anything. This is the time.
' Mayor Chmiel: I don't think this is a campaign kind of an item anyway. You may
have a lot of people who are for it. . .
' Councilwoman Dimler: I think they're not agreeing with you Mayor.
Councilman Johnson: I have a feeling it's going to be very central.
' Mayor Chmiel: I guess my clarification is that I'm not doing it because of the
politics.
' Councilman Johnson: Oh no, no. I'm not saying you are.
Mayor Chmiel: I'm looking at what's good for the City.
Councilman Johnson: But I think if we delay this decision too long that it's
going to become messed up in politics versus decision making. I think that the
' people here deserve. Everybody's been calling me and been saying, hey I want to
cast my vote. I want to do the American way and cast my vote. I'm saying let's
make that decision now and we've got plenty of time to put that information
together and approve that information. Why have staff running around putting
' this information together and wasting staff time.
Mayor Chmiel: But we have to agree with that information before we can make a
commitment. That's what I'm saying.
Councilman Johnson: We're going to say we're going to put it on the referendum.
Mayor Chmiel: No, I don't agree with that.
Councilman Johnson: Then the 5 of us have to vote on the information as to what
' is the City Council's position and then we'll vote and majority will rule on
what that piece of paper goes out as.
' Councilman Workman: I think we've got the two perfect groups here. The people
and there's a smattering all inbetween. There's a group of people who are very,
very thirsty for the type of facility we don't have in this community so when we
' say let's wait, that means let's wait until we're ready. That means financially
22
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
I/
and so it doesn't mean whether or not we have a need for a facilities because if 11
. you just look at the facility side of it, we should already have them up. And
so that's I think the gamble. Although believe me I've had people say to me, I I
belong to Flagship, why should I subsidize health club of those poor saps. I
- think he's referring to myself too which is a far reaching, a far ended comment
and then there's comments at the other end like I don't even have to make this II decision about a community center if I present as I said, I'd like the
information that I stated on a fact sheet that's approved by us. And I would
even say if this is legal, the fact sheet cannot be approved unless it's
unanimous. Maybe Don you'd hold it up but a fact sheet that we can all agree
II
this is it and let them decide because I don't really have to make the decision
on a community center and I feel comfortable enough about the City's financial
situation. I have a couple reservations, that I think Don you're right. It II could be too early but I'm ready to let the voters gamble on that and make that
decision. I think there's sufficient hot points in this whole concept from what
it's going to be. We might be a very large vocal hockey organization saying
they're not getting enough. We might get the Near Mountain people saying it's
II
nowhere near me, I don't want it. Lake Minnewashta people saying the same
thing. I think the site is far from perfect. But again we don't have an
alternative. I think if we build a middle school out near Timberwood and we get
II
everybody from Near Mountain on down going out to Timberwood, we might as well
let them go to Chaska. And again, nothing against Chaska. I think we have
learned an awful lot from Chaska but we're not Chaska and we're not Eden Prairie II and I think we need our own. I think it's high time we get something of our own
here.
Councilwoman Dimler: Well look who's jumping now. II Councilman Workman: I used to high. jump. As I told Jeff, I grew up without a
sidewalk and without a community center and I turned out okay a little bit, sort II of and so I didn't need it but I think the City's kind of drumming for an
opportunity to say we need to start getting a few things in town for ourselves
and maybe they're rewards. Maybe they're not deserved. If we find out the II City's going to have financial problems. Our bonding consultant says we're not
and Don Ashworth says he's not. He's guaranteed me his job on it.
Mayor Chmiel: That isn't what he told me. I
Councilman Workman: Then I feel comfortable with it and so there's, I don't
think we're ever going to plug every little loophole for either myself or the
II
Mayor or the high tax paying people in Near Mountain or on Lotus or wherever but
I think we're giving these people then the opportunity to stand up and say not
yet. Wait until we have 40,000 people in town and then we'll build a 5 million
dollar facility. So I don't know. There's so many things out there that we
II
can't, I've been asking anybody that I've run into over the 4th of July and the
busy weekend and I've been amazed at some of the responses that have leaned in
favor of letting the voters decide so that's, I think that takes the monkey off
II
our back and I think if we put the statistics out there properly, it doesn't
have to mean that we are promoting it or that we're against it. It's an idea
- that has consequences fiscally and community wide that they're going to have to II
take into account. We're going to get those facts that we feel are pertinent to
them without hopefully swaying them one way or the other and they can make the
decision. It would again, it would be nice for the community to get behind a
r project like this torch run that came through. We all get excited about a II
23
II
ICity Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
common thing. Some of us and say yep, we want this and we deserve it and let's
go for it and build some unity in the process rather than getting the community
center waiting for 3 years or 5 years down the road for the unity to begin
because we've been running into people. . .
Councilman Johnson: Can I ask a question Tom?
' Councilman Workman: Yep.
Councilman Johnson: Where do you stand on tonight, which is what Don and I were
talking about a minute ago? 10 minutes ago. Whether we should approve placing
this on the ballot for November tonight or should we wait until we put together
the fact sheet and other information? You know my position on that is to
approve it tonight.
Councilman Workman: That's the original dilemma that I mentioned. That we have
the facts. And unlike, it's just like what I argued about the $750.00 for the
landscaping. I know how to buy a house in this city because I know the rules of
the city. People moving in don't. Okay, if you're moving from California,
you've got a whole set of, different set of rules so let's make it a little
easier for them. But we know the facts and I think it's our duty to make that
decision tonight to say whether or not we feel comfortable enough with the facts
that we have and then to get the facts out, those facts out to the public. I
don't think I'm jumping.
Councilman Johnson: I don't think you are either. I've heard a constant strain
' all the way through.
Councilwoman Dimler: He tells me I'm jumping and then he says he's not.
' Councilman Johnson: He's dancing a little but not jumping. Can we see if we
can get a second for your delay.
'
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, I had a motion on the floor and I'm waiting to see if
there's a second. If there's not.
' Councilwoman Dimler: Would you repeat the motion please.
Mayor Chmiel: My motion is that we gather all the data and information
together. We have another meeting afterwards once we see what all that is, even
' though we have it here but there's some other data that's in our financial
statement that has to be pulled from there to be entered into it as well. The
things that should be contained in it is knowing exactly where this is at. It
' is a losing proposition right now. Indicating what the estimated tax increases
would be and compiling the other data and looking at anoiher site not including
the city site. Where that to be, I haven't the foggiest idea other than as Tom
' mentioned, in conjunction with the junior high. To get that property even as I
mentioned. To buy that property at that particular time to put the facilities,
both facilities on there. Someplace to have it. And then review the, also have
our debt analysis summary report and I'm sure some of the people won't
understand it but there are many that will. To have this in there and then just
tie it into a neat informational kind of package and then send it out to the
constituency of the city once that's done but I think we have to review it
' before we come up with the decision. I want to make sure everything is there.
24
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
I/
I'm not saying I'm not going to put it to the referendum or to the voters for a
referendum in November. I'm saying I want to see the stats first before I make
that final commitment. We have thrown them, pushed them, moved them from one
point to the other and I want to see it all in one package.
Councilman Johnson: I do too but I think we still have enough information at
this point to make that final decision. So if you get a second, I'm going to
vote against you.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I have that motion on the floor.
Councilwoman Dimler: So you are then saying that to put the referendum decision
off until we have this compiled?
Mayor Chmiel: Just until it's compiled. Whether that be the next meeting or
the following after that.
Councilwoman Dimler: Do you want to put a time limit on it?
Mayor Chmiel: I would like to have it done within no more than a month.
I don't know what staff's requirements are but that still would give them enough
time.
Councilman Johnson: If you're talking a complete analysis of a yet unnamed '
site, that's impossible.
Mayor Chmiel: True. True, but we have to do something. '
Councilman Johnson: I mean you're delaying it indefinitely is what's going to
happen.
Mayor Chmiel: No, I'm not trying to do that.
Councilwoman Dimler: I don't want to delay it anymore. I think the task force ,
has done that. Looked at all the options. It's time to make a decision either
tonight or within the next meeting I think.
Councilman Johnson: I think we can make it tonight. '
Mayor Chmiel: Well my motion's on the floor. If I don't have a second, it dies
for lack of a second. Can I have a motion from the floor?
Councilman Johnson: Well I'll move that we move this to a referendum then and
that exactly what you're asking for is prepared by staff in the month's time
frame. I think that's legitimate by the first meeting of August. And that the
City Council wants to approve any information that's going to be given out to
the public on the aspects of the community center. '
Councilwoman Dimler: Are you going to make that a unanimous decision?
Councilman Johnson: No. Because I feel if we say that we want it to be a ,
unanimous decision of the City Council, that that allows one person to blackball
the entire, we'd never get any information out so therefore there's no
information out so therefore there's no referendum and that would. I
25
•
IICity Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Resident: That wouldn't happen.
Councilman Johnson: It could.
Councilwoman Dimler: It would assure that it's all factual. To me it would
assure that it's all factual.
Councilman Johnson: Well it should be. If it's factual it will be unanimous.
I don't think it's necessary to say it's unanimous. There's been too many
things that have been dead sure issues that didn't come out dead sure issues. I
mean you know, I don't feel confident enough at this point, especially since, we
may not even know who the fifth member of this Council is that will be voting on
it. I mean that's a big question mark right now who's going to be voting on
this.
Mayor Chmiel: That was one of the other real concerns I had. Who that person
' will be as well.
Councilman Johnson: So I'm not putting the unanimous part in that. I would
love for it to be unanimous but if it's not, I would put it right on there so
' it's just passed by a 4 to 1 or 3 to 2 and whatever. Like a Supreme Court
decision. Is there's a descenting opinion, I think that can be incorporated.
But if it's factual information, I can't see.
' Councilwoman Dimler: Well it sends a confusing message to say it was passed by
4 to 1.
Councilman Johnson: Well it was passed by the City Council. There's always
some discent.
' Councilwoman Dimler: That would indicate that somebody doesn't think it's
factual. Right?
' Councilman Johnson: Or somebody doesn't like the way it's presented.
Councilwoman Dimler: It could be manipulative, yeah.
Councilman Johnson: They want to manipulate the slant of it to where it looks.
Facts are one thing. Statistics are one thing but boy you sure can play a lot
of games with facts and statistics.
Councilman Workman: Figures lie and liars figure right Con? Jay, I think it's
simple. It's the two sides, basic sides. The tax impacts, financial burden
' versus the or weighing against that the need for. this type of facility in town.
You fashion the facts around those with what the exact make-up of the facility
is at the school site. How much the total bond is and what those consequences
are and we're going to see some action. I think and so I don't know. If we say
1 August 13th meeting that we will have, or approve this fact sheet, that leaves
us September, October. That leaves us 10 weeks maybe. Is that enough time? I
don't know. I would say the sooner we get this discourse going and public, the
' better it will be because the argument has been it was a late breaking thing the
last time by Filly's and they didn't have time and it creeped up and everybody
was surprised and so why surprise people. Give the people that are promoting it
' along with the people that don't want it enough time to organize and figure
26
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
things out for themselves.
Councilman Johnson: That's why I want to approve the referendum tonight so the
people have that extra month to start getting themselves organized. Rather than
L spend the time trying to.. .
Mayor Chmiel: Well it doesn't stop them from getting organized right now either I
Jay.
Councilman Johnson: Well it gets them organized trying to prevent it from even
getting. . .
Councilwoman Dimler: I do have a concern about voting for a referendum and then
saying we never get that fact sheet agreed upon and it never gets out and then
boom, we've lost the objective.
Councilman Johnson: Well see, if it comes down to that, then anybody voting for
it can ask for reconsideration and we can pull it off the referendum. Nothing's
final. We're not chipping this thing into a slab of granite. Even a slab of
granite can be erased with a jack hammer. '
Con Ashworth: If it helps any, the Council will have to approve the specific
language. That's a resolution. It's prepared by the approving attorney. It
cannot be printed until such time as the Council acts to act on that resolution
and that generally is 4 to 6 weeks in advance of the referendum itself.
Councilwoman Dimler: But if we don't agree on the wording and we've voted for a
referendum, do we have to put something on?
Don Ashworth: No. That's what I'm saying. If the fact sheet does not come
back or you do not agree with it and you change your mind, you would then not
pass that resolution as it would be put onto the agenda in October.
Councilman Johnson: So what we're saying tonight, if we say we want a '
referendum issue, we're saying prepare the fact sheets. We're saying prepare
the statement that's going to go on the ballot question and get, we're starting
the wheels turning. But you can always stop the wheels turning at some time. '
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, we have a motion on the floor.
Councilman Workman: I'll second it. ,
Mayor Chmiel: It's been seconded. , Would you go through it one more time for
clarification?
Councilman Johnson: Well basically it's approving that we want a referendum on
the ballot on the community center issue at the November election. That we'd '
like a short, concise fact sheet prepared that has the information that Tom and
Oon and Ursula and I have all been talking about this evening. Having it
summarized, approved by the City Council. We want that fact sheet available to
us by the August 13th meeting.
Councilman Workman: August 13th is the first and then 27th.
27
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Councilwoman Dimler: We have one more meeting in July. Is that too early?
Councilman Johnson: I think that's too soon. If there's a draft ready, I'd
like to see it at our next meeting. I'd like to see the draft material as soon
as possible to each of the members.
' Councilman Workman: The reason I'm saying the sooner the better is merely for
the advantage of both sides. If people with tax concerns will then not be able
to say this was snuck in or this was ramrodded or.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't want that. No way. That's right. Could you have it
ready by the 23rd?
' Councilman Johnson: That'd be 13 weeks we would have between August 13th and
the election. The last time, by the time we actually had figures together it
was more like 6 weeks and it was the middle of the winter and nothing went
smoothly so we're going to have between August 13th and the election which is
actually the first Tuesday following the second Monday. Is that how they state
that? Which would be November 13th. So September, October, 3 full months. If
they can have it, if it can be prepared by the July 23rd, our next meeting, that
' would even be better but I'm not saying it absolutely has to be because I know
there's a lot of stuff going on this time of year and I don't want to unduly
burden staff at this point. But boy it'd be.
Councilman Workman: We could hire Eric Rivkin.
' Mayor Chmiel: Okay, we have a motion on the floor with a second. what date are
we looking at then?
Councilman Johnson: Absolutely by the 13th.
IDon Ashworth: Yeah, August 13th.
Councilman Workman: With the hopes of a rough draft by end of July.
Don Ashworth: We'll see what we can do.
' Councilman Workman: And at what point do we have the ability to stop gap this
thing?
Don Ashworth: Resolution would be presented.
Mayor Chmiel: Member of the majority.
' Don Ashworth: First part of October, end of September.
Councilman Johnson: So we'd have a month and a half after the fact sheet.
' Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve a referendum
vote for the community center on the November election ballot with direction for
staff to prepare a fact sheet for Council approval by the first meeting in
August. All voted in favor except Mayor Chmiel who was silent and the motion
carried unanimously.
' 28
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
II
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Mayor Chmiel: 78th Street. Weeds. Brand new flowers going in. Looking deader
than heck.
Councilwoman Dimler: What? New flowers?
Mayor Chmiel: New flowers.
Councilman Johnson: New dead flowers? I
Mayor Chmiel: The flower club has put in flowers and nobody's watering them.
How are we going to do that? '
Gary Warren: Mother Nature is doing a little bit but.
Mayor Chmiel: But Mother Nature hasn't hit them and last Friday they were put
in the early part, right by the clock tower. Almost dying.
Todd Gerhardt: Those are right in the sprinklers.
Gary Warren: Yeah, we've had some problems with the sprinkler system with the
air check valves bursting this week so both systems went down again and we've
contacted the contractor to come in to repair it so hopefully he will be in
soon. I did talk to Chuck Eller our downtown specialist just today and we're, I
authorized a week picking crew. We did this last year when things were out of
control because of our problems with Nobel Nursery and we're going to use our
summer gate keepers and helpers to work some overtime here this week I hope to
do a downtown sweep of the weeds and get caught up with things.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that would help. 1
Todd Gerhardt: They don't have anything to do with the flowers. The flowers
are maintained by the club and there are 3 groups within the club and that
group's responsible for maintenance and they divied up a time table for each
individual.
Mayor Chmiel: But they're not doing the watering.
Todd Gerhardt: The water is behind old Village Hall. We put a spigot on the
Old Village Hall so you can go over there and use their water.
Councilman Johnson: So they'd have to fill a bucket and carry it over and dump
it?
Mayor Chmiel: Are there any sprinklers there?
Todd Gerhardt: Yes.
' Councilman Johnson: Yeah, they're just broken. I
Don Ashworth: On the Pauly building.
i 11
29
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Councilman Johnson: Do we own the Pauly building? But we don't pay the
utilities?
Don Ashworth: Well it's our facility so yeah.
Councilman Johnson: But we rent it to him and he pays the water bill.
' Mayor Chmiel: I just think we've talked beautification and everything looks
neat and they're there looking at you and it sure deters from the appearance.
' Something has to be done and I think it not only has to be done this one time
but throughout the summer, spring as we have this stuff in.
' Gary Warren: Are you talking about the weeds in these new flower beds
basically.
Mayor Chmiel: Well, there's weeds there. Weeds within the center median.
Gary Warren: The center median should be taken care of.
I Mayor Chmiel: That 's more of what I'm talking. Because when I perosed the city
yesterday to see what damages we had, if any with the storms, there were a lot
of trees down out in Minnewashta.
Gary Warren: Yeah, we took a pretty good hit .
Mayor Chmiel: But I'd just like to see that addressed. Okay, no other
' discussion.
Councilman Johnson: No, water on Cheyenne.
Mayor Chmiel: Oh yeah, water. Tom.
' Councilman Workman: Yes. Gary do you have any information on that little
meeting we had up there? No he doesn't. Let me explain it and then you can
chip in. I got some complaints over the past week about, and I don't know if
you know where I'm talking about. The Cheyenne up by Lotus. There's two. Just
' north of Kurver's Point and they've got some very difficult drainage problems
brought to my attention by Steve Danlow and neighbors of his.
Councilman Johnson: Still running across the street there like it was last
year?
Councilman Workman: It's running across the street and then we've got this
' culvert that it's, a lot of the water from the west is directed into this
holding pond type thing that has a culvert drain on it to go under the road but
when it goes under the road there's a plug in it. Okay, in regards to Kurver's,
etc. so the water then just fills up in their front year, goes across the street
and over the road and into this yard and it fills up the yard and there is an
easement but it's not looking very positive.
' Councilman Johnson: Someone has plugged that purposely are you saying?
Gary Warren: Very neatly done and with a clean out even.
30
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
Councilman Workman: With a clean out and. I
•
Councilman Johnson: A clean out on the plug?
II
Gary Warren: There's a plug there.
Councilman Workman: But it's creating some problems and then the water all from 1
TH 101 ditch is coming down and over and everything else and there's another
culvert problem up on top. I met out there with Dave Hempel and Jerry Schienk
at 7:00 a.m. last Tuesday morning and it seems like the whole neighborhood came
II
from out of nowhere and we were talking about some things and I'd like to
commend Dave and Jerry for coming out a little early and the gnats were bad and
looking at what looked like a situation that really needs to be corrected. We II had anticipated talking last Thursday. I don't know if Dave has got some more
answers about where we're going to go or if you do. I got a call tonight from
one of them asking if we had those answers. I did indicate to them that I would
mention it to the Council so that they're all aware of it. In addition to
II
accidents when they're going north on TH 101, turning into Cheyenne. Nowhere
for traffic to go around. They think they can get around the right side but
they end up bumping from the rear. Okay. I
Councilwoman Dimler: That was a problem over a year ago already.
Gary Warren: It 's been aggrevated partly by the fact that those homes were 1
built on the north side of Cheyenne. Prior to this point the water had drained
across the road into the wetland area there and basically wasn't a big problem.
It was still something we wanted to resolve. I was out looking at it with Dave II
because I was on vacation last week and basically what part of the solution that
we're trying to implement right now, and this would be a perfect example of
where a storm water utility district could come in handy, is to construct a
culvert that would take care of the TH 101 drainage and pipe it to the north to II
get it into the wetland without letting it fall down into this lowland area.
We're applying for a permit right now to get that done and we'll have to work 11 out where we're going to get the cost covered for that element. The other part
of it is the culvert as Tom mentioned that has a plug in it. The drainage
basin, the ponding network that was part of the Kurver's Point design, we're at
this point trying to confirm that it did include the drainageway from the
II
Cheyenne Road area and if indeed it does, then the plug in the culvert that,s
plugged and everything else, that's on city right-of-way and would be our
judgment that that should be opened up and let the drainage from the road go to II the south there and basically alleviate the big part of the problem. So we're
working on it right now. It's been a long standing issue and we're trying to
resolve it as soon as we can but some of these things may take some time too. II Councilman 7ohnson: Did the drainage go to the south prior to Kurver's
building? Did it drain to there prior?
Gary Warren: I don't know how far back that plug goes Jay. I mean as far as I
timewise.
Councilman Johnson: So that could have been.
II
Gary Warren: I don't want to even, between Bloomberg and Kurver's there's an
issue, property ownership issue there and drainage issue that led to the
II
31
II
II ,
City Council Meeting - July 9, 1990
plugging of the culvert I believe. I don't remember.
' Councilman Workman: Can you have Dave call me tomorrow and then I can get back
to those people with some of the details as they are anxiously awaiting.
' Gary Warren: Dave, Charles and I were all of us were out today looking at it so
•
Dave can give you a jingle and fill you in better.
Councilman Workman: He has my work number?
' Don Ashworth: If I mry. A quick public announcement item and then just general
information for the City Council. Anyone who stacks shrubs, trees, that have
' been blowing, as a part of this storm. Put them in your front yard. The city
crew will be picking those up this week so again if you're, if you have any
questions from citizens or potentially is Dave, if it could get into, Chris
could get it into the newspaper.
Councilman Johnson: When are we going to pick it up? Why don't we
put it on
the bank board? I mean if we want to communicate. I mean the newspapers come
out Thursday.
Don Ashworth: We're trying to get it done this week but I don't, I would guess
we would go into this next week if that's necessary. The main thing is put it
into bundles that the crews can pick up.
(The tape ran out at this point. ) Don Ashworth stated that Mayor Chmiel and
' hinself had been working with Abby Bongard and would be getting information to
the City Council as soon as possible.
Councilman Workman moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:35
' p.m..
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Mann Opheim
1
I
i
I
I
32
I
PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION a
REGULAR MEETING
JUNE 26, 1990
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:36 P .m . .
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady , Jan Lash , Larry Schroers , and Jim Andrews
MEMBERS ABSENT: Dawne Erhart , Curt Robinson and Wendy Pemrick
' STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman , Recreation Supervisor and Mark Koegler ,
Consultant
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Schroers moved , Lash seconded to approve the Minutes
of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 21 , 1990 as
presented . All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously .
Hoffman: To appoint acting chair , do you want to keep doing that?
' Mady : We 'd have to amend the Rules . The meeting rules for the year if we
do . If w•_ change it .
' Hoffman: Change it to?
Mady : Not d•D it .
' Lash: Maybe that 's something we could discuss when everyone 's here and you
just figured you 'd do it for tonight right Jim?
' Mady: Yeah , since there wasn 't anybody . Usually if there 's a dash there
and the name .
Schroers: Tonight 's a real easy night if someone who hasn 't done it before
wanted to do it , it 'd be a heck of a night to do it .
Mady: Without people here .
Hoffman: My question is , I don 't know what Lori 's list was so I 'll just
start a new one .
Mady: That 'd be fine until such time as . . .
Andrews: You can put me on the rotation . I 'd like to be on the rotation .
' Hoffman: Okay .
' Mady: Jan, Dawne and Wendy said not to .
Lash: This is starting to sound sexist . I 'll have to give this some
' thought .
Mady: Not intentionally . You guys had your own choice .
' Lash: I know but that 's the way the cards are going .
' Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 2
1
RECREATIONAL PROGRAM FEES.
' Hoffman: What you essentially have before you is a list of programs which
the Department of Recreation Department sponsors and there 's also a list of
programs which we co-sponsor . Contractual agreement programs and then the
' co-sponsor for . . . Hopefully so the Commission has a better idea what 's
going on in the programming aspect of the department , each year we 'll have
a year end evaluation report that shows the recreation programs non-self
' supporting . What those programs were . What the expenditures were for each
of those programs and what the revenues generated . Then as well for the
146 recreation programs , self supporting programs we included numbers like
' participants . Where those participants came from and the dollars generated
and then the expenses as well the recreation programming aspect . As the
City grows , I think that will help the Commission in keeping you up to date
on what is going on .
' Mady: Can I ask some questions Todd since I don 't know what some of these
• things are and I don 't have my booklet? What 's wingdings and super read
' outs? Are those kid deals?
Lash: Yeah . Wednesdays?
' Hoffman: Part of the summer discovery playground program . Then on
Wednesday afternoons we just have the zoo mobile here last week . This week
they 're watching a movie and eating popcorn . Then there will be super '
' events as part of the summer discovery playground program . The first week
they learn to . . . They go to Fort Snelling . Those types of activities .
' Lash: And Murphy 's Landing .
Mady: How about Operation Smart?
Hoffman: Operation Smart? That 's a new program which Jerry , when he was
brought in as the new program specialist brought some programs with .
Operation Smart is exploring the underwater world . Kids in the Kitchen .
' Operation Smart is back to the , it 's a female or girls only program which
goes through a variety of activities . So it 's a program for girls .
' Schroers: In general do these fees cover the expense of providing the
program?
Hoffman: Again , it doesn 't break down recreation programs for either 146
which is self supporting which includes all adult sports and some of the
youth sports . The other youth sports like the playground . That 's a
subsidized program that falls into the 145 recreation programs and that 's
' self supporting . So some of these are subsidized and some generate costs .
Lash: Subsidized from who? By who?
' Hoffman: By our annual Park and Recreation budget .
Mady: General revenue . Any other questions?
r I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting li
June 26 , 1990 - Page 3
I
Andrews: Does this come up for review in the late fall , early winter then?'
Hoffman: The year end?
Andrews: Yeah , the year end figures and costs and revenues?
I
Hoffman: Yeah . Hopefully just after the first of year . That 's something
that 's not been done in the past . The programs such as the ones on the I
back which like Kellogg 's Body and . . .Dance , they generated a surprising
amount of revenue for us with very little work . Probably in excess of
about $1 ,000 .00 per year for those two programs . Some programs offset
Iother ones .
Lash: Is this what we get or is this , like the Kellogg 's Le Body Shop ,
$3 .00 , is that what the fee is?
Hoffman: What they get , yeah . And then we get a good percentage , 10% for
' location . 10% for advertising and 10% if we take the registrations .
I
Lash: So you get 90 cents per class per person?
Hoffman: Yeah .
I
Lash: Okay .
DISCUSSION OF THE 1990 4TH OF JULY CELEBRATION. I
Mady: Any request for volunteers?
I•
Hoffman: That 's what this is , yeah .
Lash: When Dawne called me , she asked if there was anything of importance
I don 't know how to say this , on the agenda tonight and I did mention that
you were looking for volunteers so she said I 'm supposed to volunteer her
for whatever I want .
I
Hoffman: Great .
Mady: That 's dangerous .
I
Hoffman: Glad to hear it . Basically we 're well under way . We start
Saturday with the events Sunday and again with the torch run . On Saturday
the Co-Rec Softball Tournament is filled with 8 teams . On Sunday the Men 's
Softball Tournament is filled with 10 teams and then Tuesday night is the
street dance and community picnic where we need ample support to pull that '
event off as Wednesday for family day . So this item is brought to you
solely for your information and your opportunity to contribute your
volunteer .
Mady: And this year again Todd , are you dangling . I
Hoffman: Dangling these wonderful T-shirts .
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 4
Lash: Neon .
' Hoffman: Did you take a look at these?
Schroers: If we volunteer , we get a T-shirt , is that it?
Hoffman: You bet .
Lash: I didn 't last year . I had to win mine .
Mady: Well at least you got one .
' Lash: Yeah I did . I wear it a lot too . Okay , should I volunteer?
Hoffman: Yep .
Lash: I 'm willing to serve food if I can do it , do you have it in shifts
or how does this work? I 'd like to do it early and be done with it .
' Hoffman: Sure .
' Lash: Okay . So could I do that like for an hour and then do games for
like an hour?
Hoffman: You bet . Whatever you want .
Lash : He 's easy . So like 6 :00 to 7:00 and then 7:00 to 8:00 . Okay , then
I 'm done by the time the band starts right?
Hoffman: Yep .
Lash: Good . Put Dawne down too . She said she 'll do it with me .
Mady: She said she 'd do clean-up too?
Lash: Oh yeah , she wants to clean-up also .
Andrews: I 'll do the same hours . 6:00 to 8:00 .
' Hoffman: Jan , are you going to be able to help out with the family games?
Lash: Yeah , and I think Dawne will do that too .
IAndrews: This on Tuesday we 're talking about?
IHoffman: No , this is Wednesday .
Lash: Okay , 2:00 to 3:00 . Last year I did the hoola hoop and the limbo .
IRemember that?
Hoffman: Yeah .
I/
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I/
June 26 , 1990 - Page 5
1
Lash: I could probably do that too . So if I do it from like , that 's 2
hours on , okay . I ' ll do that . Is that enough?
Hoffman: That 's great .
Mady: I 'm going to pass . I 'm going to be out of town Tuesday through
Sunday .
Andrews: Well cash contributions . '
Mady: I think I 'll take out of some of the volunteer effort out of the
last 5 years . '
Lash: I 'll probably be over for the fishing contest anyway .
Hoffman: If I need you , I 'll grab you . '
Mady: She 's got that 5 pound northern tied up .
Lash: But you know I 'm not going to pass for under 15 this year . I just
don 't like . I 'd like to . They were down there today , the DNR doing the
fish count . They said there 's none there just like I said . '
Andrews: They 've got tame ones just for the kids .
Mady: I was told upstairs today that they thought Lake Lucy may be had
froze out .
Lash: Oh , I 'm sure . It does like every couple years . But there 's two
guys upstairs and the other guy said , no . He saw some sunfish in there .
Some small ones but he saw sunfish . And the -carp have been rolling where I
was at over the weekend so if there are carp , they should have been very I
evident this weekend .
Schroers: My 4th of July schedule is still up in the air . I may have to 11
cover for a torch runner on Sunday and I 'm just not happy about that .
Having to go into work for 2 hours but .
Resident: Cover for a torch runner of Chan? '
Schroers: Yes .
Resident: Doug Mitchell? ,
Schroers: Yes . But he 's my main man now . But , then there 's another I
family deal going on so I 'm not sure what my schedule is going to be but I
will probably just show up and say where do you need me if that will work?
Hoffman: Tuesday night?
I
Schroers: Tuesday night or Wednesday . Both maybe if I can but I can 't
commit to any hours at this point .
I . '
,' Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 6
I .
Hoffman: The carnival games and booths on Tuesday we 're going to need some
I help .
Schroers: And what time is that? 6:00 to 9:00 on Tuesday?
IHoffman: Yeah .
Schroers: Well I 'll do my best to make it but I don 't want to commit to
Isomething and then not be able to .
Hoffman: Okay . And family games this time , we 're going to have them down
Ion the beach so we 're off the hill .
Lash: Oh , the family games? Okay . So it will be right in the same place
as the other , the hoola hoop and stuff?
IHoffman: Yeah , it will be out by the big oak tree along the asphalt trail .
I Lash: Okay . Do you have everything that you need for that so you sort of
know what you 're doing and you have it together and stuff?
I Hoffman : Yeah , ready to go for it . We have the balloon toss , squirt gun
relay , the other relays .
Lash: The one where you tie your legs together and push the ball? That
Ione with your head .
Hoffman: Okay . The members that are absent , I will sign them up .
•' Lash: Hey , do we have to volunteer to be in this dunk thing?
I Hoffman: Sure . I mean I told them to call the Park and Recreation
Commissioners . I know they got City Council and Mayor up there .
Lash: There are going to be a lot of people doing a lot of dunking . What
Itime is that supposed to go on?
Hoffman: I think that starts from 6:00 and goes until 9:00 .
IMady: I was told about 4 or 5 years ago that in Carver County dunk tanks
were illegal . There 's a County ordinance against it and it had to do with ,
this is all hearsay but this is back when I was in the Jaycees and we were
I
trying to do those types of programs and it had to do something about in
the past at some point in time Al Klingelhutz was involved with one and he
got dunked and hurt his back . Due to that , they made it a policy or , I
I don 't know . Although it 's been up at St . Hubert 's all those years that
I 've been going there and Al 's always up there so I don 't think that 's
maybe the way it is .
ILash: If it 's not a State law , the police couldn't enforce it anyway . If
it 's just in the ordinance .
II
•
•
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 7
1
Mady: I don 't know . I just thought it was kind of interesting . I had
heard this when we were back in the Jaycees and yet St . Hubert 's does it
every year so obviously it either isn't or it 's just ignored .
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS '
Mady : All that 's left is adminstrative packet . Any questions on the
Adminsistrative packet?
Hoffman: You might just want to go through that item by item .
Lash: On this Bandimere thing . Obviously at our last meeting when we
brought up about the lady who thinks it should be preserved . That must
have . . .
Hoffman: We haven 't heard from her . '
Lash: So you figure it 's okay to torch it then?
Hoffman: Well we haven 't heard from her after this letter went out so .
Lash: Oh , you sent a letter to her? '
Hoffman: The notice went to Wendy and Wendy was her neighbor and the
person . . . '
Mady: Wendy was going to talk to her about it .
Andrews: It 's a dangerous building . It needs to be burnt . ,
Lash: Well I just thought before we did that , it might be diplomatic to
talk to her first so that the thing that she thinks should be historically I
preserved , she doesn 't see the City just burn it down without totally . . .
Schroers: Well wasn 't that the lady that came to our meeting and when we I
told her about the condition of the place , what she really said that she
was concerned about were the' houses that were made out of Chaska brick .
Lash: That wasn 't her . '
Mady: That wasn't the same person but they were interested in the same
thing. '
Lash: But it wasn 't the same person . I just thought it might be kind of
callous if we ignored what she said and just went in there and burned the
house down .
Andrews: We could invite her to light the first match .
Mady: Yeah , the ceremonial first match thrown . Okay . Lake Ann was
obviously seeded . Did they get the soccer field done too now?
11
I .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 8
Hoffman: Soccer field . They 're regrading . They 've resurveyed it and now
' they 're regrading . The ballfields are coming along nicely .
Mady: Yeah , the grass looked nice .
Schroers: If we can 't get them to come in this year , I don 't know . We 're
going to be in trouble . Growing conditions are ideal .
' Hoffman: The first few hard rains after they just seeded it , took out some
gullys but they 'll have to do some hand seeding and grading and leveling
this fall and hopefully by this spring we ' ll be able to play . The
remainder of this park and the soccer field as of yet is still unseeded
,. though . Some of the issues which you 've seen in here on the drainage
problems are being addressed back through . . .coming back to us with a
solution to try to move some of that water out of there more quickly and
' that will be installed as part of the final product which we 're getting .
Schroers : I would recommend if they could to fill in the washouts and seed
' right in the first of September . Last week of August or first week of
September because you want some time to get that established before the
freeze .
Mady: And from about now on , we 're pretty much going to hit the dry spell
now so we might as well not do anything through July .
Hoffman: There 's the last remark in there that we really feel we 're
getting the solution . . .so Mark was asked to take a look at it and see what ,
just get a different viewpoint . So this is what they came back with so
' through conversations with Gary Warren and Mark . . .and his input and this
letter from Mark , we should have a solution . The letter from . . .concerning
Curry Farms . . . keep you up to date . The site plans on here normally . Those
would be brought to the Park Commission as a regular agenda item . If you
have any questions on any of these two , you can . . .
Lash: What about this thing to the Mayor of Victoria? There wasn 't
anything . I don 't remember seeing a letter previously from him so I guess
I 'm confused what she 's asking about here .
' Hoffman: Okay , the railroad which cuts just the northwest corner of
Chanhassen , the railroad tracks that come across . The city of Victoria has
that developed as a bith path throughout the City of Victoria . - City of
Shorewood has it developed as a bike path through Shorewood and downtown
' Excelsior . They 're just asking us if we will commit to finishing that , I
don 't know if that distance is in here . Less than a mile segment through
the City of Chanhassen .
Lash: Okay .
Hoffman: Do you have any viewpoints on that? If that 's something that . . .
Schroers: I was on that trail on Sunday and that trail goes beyond
Shorewood all the way up into Minnetonka . Into Minnetonka Mills . There
are parts of it that are excellent . There are other parts of it that are
II
Park and Rec Commission Meeting I/
June 26 , 1990 - Page 9
I
basically non-rideable unless you 're young with a strong mountain bike . It,
would be really nice to see that trail finished all the way . To cover a
lot of distance and it 's something that people would use a lot and
I noticed that on the parts that were finished nice , there was a lot of
people using it and as soon as you get to a section that was unimproved ,
you may say there was practically nobody on it . So it really disrupts the
trail to have portions of it that are unimproved .
Lash: What 's the difference between the improved and unimproved? I
Schroers: Where it was really nice was in Minnetonka from you know where I
those Little League baseball fields are on TH 101? From there east . It
was a very fine crushed aggregate and it was almost like cement . It was
smooth . It was flat . You don 't need 'a mountain bike . Just a regular road
bike goes down there really nice . Immediately west of TH 101 , it 's
railroad rock . You can 't ride hardly anything on it . It 's not good to walk
on . It 's just really pretty much unacceptable for a trail .
Hoffman: The first segment that comes through downtown Victoria is
l
finished with the same type of small aggregate which packs down and is very
rideable . The last segment is that large railroad , that gray rock that
it 's sharp on the edges . Basically most of those segments are used for
I
snowmobile trails in the winter and if they 're covered with snow it 's
sufficient . But now the City of Victoria has budgeted enough monies to
improve the rest of that trail . Take off that railroad rock and put down , I
it 's almost like a pea rock on the baseball field . To continue that and
then they 're working with the City of Shorewood and see if they can 't get
that whole segment so they contacted us just to see if we can do our small I
segment of trail in there .
Schroers: I would think if there was any funds available , I would
certainly be in favor of it .
I
Lash: So is that something we can remember to look at?
Hoffman: Someone should probably make a motion on it . Probably an I
in-house project to go up there and take a look at that . Maybe the
maintenance folks in the City of Victoria would. . .park maintenance and get I
an idea of how they 're going about it so they all sing the same tune and
next spring they get to that and they can go ahead and do that .
Mady: Don 't they set the ag lime right on top of the existing railroad I
bed?
Schroers: No , not really because that rock doesn 't settle very well . I
You 're looking for a motion Todd? What you would like is a motion of
intent or interest to meet with the City of Victoria to research the
possibilities or do you want a motion? Do you want approval to go ahead
with it?
I
Hoffman: Yeah .
Lash: We don 't have the money to do it do we? I
•
1
11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 10
' Hoffman : We can budget for it .
Lash: So we 'd have to make sure it 's in the budget? That 's what I 'm
' afraid we 're going to forget to do is get it in the budget . If we make a
motion now to do that , then is that going to reassure us that it will be in
the budget next year?
Hoffman: Sure . . .
Andrew: I second it . Who moved?
Lash: I think Larry did .
Mady: What is the motion exactly?
Schroers: The motion is to proceed with .
' Lash : Investigating the possibilities?
Schroers: No , not investigating the possibilities . The motion is to
proceed with budgeting and completing the segment of that particular trail
that runs through the City of Chanhassen .
Lash: And should we give some direction to get an amount figure? An
' estimate so that when it comes budget time , we have an idea of what to put
in?
' Mady: I 'm assuming they 'd meet with Victoria and they 'll know exactly what
they 're doing so then they can estimate the number of yards .
' Lash: Okay , make sure we get that so we know come budget time what we 're
doing .
Schroers moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
' proceed with budgeting and completing the upgrading of a segment of trail
that runs through the northwest corner City of Chanhassen in 1991 . All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
SITE PLANS.
Mady: Any questions on the site plans?
Lash: What are you looking for?
Hoffman: Normally you recall when site plans are brought up before us for
any commercial , industrial or residential developments , we look at things
like trail easements , park fees , accepting land or accepting park and trail
fees in lieu of land . Those types of things . So basically these two items
are obviously not in areas where we 're going to require parkland . Any
trail easements which would be necessary to be taken and we 'll . . .park and
trail fees .
II
Park and Rec Commission Meeting II
June 26 , 1990 - Page 11
I
Andrews: Do we have to allow for the trail along TH 5 or is that just
II
going to be . . .
Hoffman: That 's in the State . I
Andrews: That 's in the State plan? Okay .
Mady: State highway plan . And they 're both on TH 5 . I
Andrews: So I don 't think we need to do anything other than . . .
II
Mady: I think all we need to do is move to recommend the City accept park
and trail fees in lieu of development 'on both plans . I don 't know if you
need separate motions on each one or not but ditto them for both but I 'll I
move .
Schroers: I 'll second .
I
Mady moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to accept park and trail fees in lieu of parkland and trail
construction on the two site plans located on TH 5. All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
Schroers: Todd , while we 're talking about this trail business , there is a
washout just east of the Lake Ann entrance on that bike trail that could be/
hazardous to someone .
Hoffman: That came out of the new park area there? Washed out of that? I
Schroers: Yeah .
Hoffman: Did it take out the asphalt? II
Schroers: Yeah . It took out the asphalt and what it is is it 's about a
foot wide and about a foot deep and someone could step in it if they were
jogging along there at night and break an ankle or someone could drop a
bicycle tire in there and go over the handle bars . I
Hoffman: While we 're on park and trail fees , there 's a point of interest
that was discussed last night at the City Council meeting . In going
through the spring of 1989 , March of 1989 , remember when we went through
and reconstructed park trail fees and as part of that commercial/industrial
land , it was designated that land which costs over $12 ,500 .00 an acre , the
park fee would be determined at 10% of the land cost . McDonald 's came in II
with a proposal to acquire an additional .921 acres at a cost of about
$160 ,000 .00 . That would put their trail fee , their park and trail fees at
about $21 ,000 .00 for less than an acre of land . So that did not seem
reasonable and/or fair so that was discussed last night as an item that the'
City Council when they approved , recommended to approve or actually
recommended that the City Council approved that we go back to the general
formula which is $1 ,200 .00 per acre on all commercial/industrial until we II
can take a look at that and find a better way of determining those fees .
11 Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 12
So that plat came in at less than an acre at $21 ,000 .00 . Robert 's
' Automated Products came in at 7 .5 acres at $22 ,000 .00 so you 've got over 5
times the amount of land and their park fees only about $1 ,000 .00 more and
it 's still quite high at $22 ,000 .00 . We have a survey . We 'll be bringing
this item back to the Park Commission at their next meeting . A survey of a
large portion of the communities , the Metropolitan communities and the
large percentage of them just acquire park and trail fees and the
commercial/industrial have a flat rate of per acre and the majority of them
' are either above or below the $2 ,000 .00 mark per acre . So we 're just a
little bit behind in that . We need to get that corrected so we can get
ahead and go ahead with these building projects . Have anything further to
add to that Don?
Mayor Chmiel : You covered it well .
' Hoffman : Is everybody understanding the idea to that? The intent was , if
I recall correctly , when you 're dealing with . . .
' ( There was a tape change at this portion of the meeting . )
Schroers: . . .and that 's kind of too bad . That is supposed to be a handicap
access but the woodchips going from the parking lot to the pier are pretty
' hard to negotiate a wheelchair over . Or hard to walk on for someone that
is somewhat immobile . So I don 't know what the answer is there .
•
' Hoffman: That is part of our agreement. Upon receiving that here , the
next time the City , public works crew does asphalting , they will remove the
woodchips that are there and install the aggregate base and asphalt I
believe so we make that entire trail from the parking lot where the
handicap stalls are down to the fishing pier and accessible by wheelchair .
Or at least by hardpacked surface . The solution I would see to the drive
down there , the sleeve which is installed over by the beach , they 'll
' install a sleeve in the middle of the asphalt trail of the same kind and
then put large wood bollards inbetween from the edge of the asphalt trail
and onto the lake . . .to cure that problem .
Mady: As long as we can do it with either that or I was suggesting a split
rail fence . Something that . . .just to cut it out .
' Hoffman: Yeah , a split rail fence would eventually . . .
Mady: You can do them fairly inexpensively .
' Lash: Then I just wanted to say , what kind of a turnout did you get for
Teen Night?
' Hoffman: I think we had 60 .
Lash: So is that good?
' Hoffman: That 's pretty good .
I/
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 13
Lash: From what I heard it was fun and I 'm sure it was appreciated . Then I
another question I had . I saw and heard something when I was looking at
the fees about the canoe rack rentals . Has that been all done? No?
Hoffman: New racks were built . The sites were never finalized with the II
park maintenance crew so they don 't know where they 're going so we have to II
get together with Dale and determine, or we can talk about that .
Lash: I think we figured out where they were going at a meeting didn 't well
Schroers: Generally .
Hoffman: At Lake Susan and two at Lotus but the exact location of where 111
they would be for like the easiest access of the canoes and that type of
thing . '
Schroers: We had decided at Lotus that one was going to be close to the
Carver Beach Park and the other one was going to be further down the trail
to more easily accommodate the neighbors that live closest to the lake .
Mady: The mini-beach .
Schroers: The mini-beach , correct .
Hoffman : I would foresee , that would be on the east of the mini-beach on
the flat?
Mady: Yeah . Not too far away though .
Hoffman: Then the other one would be right in the park property itself andll
then the third one would be installed at Lake Susan.
Lash: So did you get many calls from people interested? ,
Hoffman: We received 3 checks . It 's something new that people don 't know
about and they 're certainly they 're not there so people aren 't seeing them .
The season 's obviously half over so I 've contacted those people and said do
you want to get a full refund this year and not use them or we'll refund
you half and you can use it for the remainder of the season . The park
maintenance crews is severely backlogged in their work . They'\ie got
project after project that they could be doing so it 's . . .
Mady: They 're spending all their time cutting grass . It 's got to stop '
raining one of these days .
Schroers: Speaking of which , what kind of a mower do they use for mowing I
along the trail by Lake Ann?
Hoffman: Along the trail they use . . . ,
Schroers: Is it a Woodsmower type?
Lash: I think it 's the same one they use at the park isn 't it? ,
1 ,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 14
1
Hoffman: They 've got two different types . It 's either the Woodsmower type
' which mows underneath , which is a lawn tractor type of mower or else one of
the Toro 's . I don't know which one they use .
Lash : It 's got a big thing you know .
Schroers: A big thing? You mean a . . .
' Lash: Yeah . I mean it doesn 't look like a mower . It looks like it 's got .
Hoffman: A deck .
Lash: Yeah , a really big one in the front .
Schroers: Well okay , if it 's got a big deck in the front , I guess I don 't
see any reason to have that much grass all over the whole top of the trail .
They should mow it so it blows away from the trail one way . Turn around .
Come back and mow it so it blows away from the trail the other way . I mean
it was like cut hay all over the trail .
Lash : It was . Yeah , it was .
' Schroers : I mean it was really thick . Right on top of the pavement and
there always seems to be quite a few branches and stuff down too and I
don 't know if a sweeper is part of the equipment that the City has here or
not . I totally understand what you 're saying about the maintenance being
over loaded but to operate a little bit more efficiency takes some of the
load off . You don 't have to go back and do things twice . So if they could
mow in a direction to blow the clippings away from the trail rather than on
them , you 're going to end up with a much nicer trail .
' Hoffman: Were they clippings or were they . . .
Schroers: It looked to me like somebody when on it with a Woodsmower and a
Woodsmower is just a great big industrial thing that will chop down almost
anything . It does not do a neat job of cutting but what it's designed for
is rough cutting and that is basically rough cutting along there and I
thought that that 's what happened . Somebody just ran over it with a
' Woodsmower and just chopped it up and it all landed on the trail .
Hoffman: Okay . I 'll inquire with whoever . I 'll be having a chance to
travel either with Dale or Dean in marking the torch run route on Thursday
morning early so that's actually part of the trail that we go along there
so we 'll be marking that area and I 'll talk specifically about that a
little bit to see .
' Mady: Are you still coming on Frontier Trail? Good . Most of us can 't
drive on it either .
Lash: I have another question and it kind of ties in with something that
Jim Andrews brought up one night . I just heard from someone today a little
grumbling about the over 35 league and the number of people that they think
I/
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 15
are in or coming in that are not eligible as far as living or working in
Chan . 1
Mady: There are some new faces out there , that 's for sure .
Lash: And specifically I believe the team they were talking about was
Rosemount . That this is a brand new team this year and a lot of the guys
don 't live or work .
Hoffman: At Rosemount?
Lash: Well they work for Rosemount but they work in Eden Prairie . They I
don 't work at this one but they 're coming . But they 're on this team . So
one night Jim you were bringing up something about fees and we were kind of
talking about if we 're always running short of money . This is not going to
be a popular idea with some people but maybe it 's something we can consider,
as the fields are getting more and more crowded each year . If the person
does not live in Chanhassen but is still eligible to play . If they work
here or they 're grandfathered in or whatever , that their fee then would be 1
higher than a resident . The same as to get into Lake inn. It 's twice as
much to get in for a non-resident . Maybe since they 're not contributing by
paying their real estate taxes for anything , then maybe we can charge them I
more and that would be more of an incentive for them to go and play on
their own fields if they think we 're getting too expensive .
Hoffman: Anybody that was here during that discussion a year and a half
ago?
Lash: I know . I said it wouldn 't be popular . 1
Mady: You don 't see me saying a whole lot .
Lash: No . And I know it will probably stir the pot a little bit . It 's
not telling them they can 't play .
Hoffman: That 's the exact position I took when we went through that is
that the field shortage was getting so bad and that we should eliminate the
outside players and or allow them to play , 3 players per team and then they
pay , in a number of cities they pay a non-resident fee so they pay . . . '
Andrews: We should do the same thing here .
Hoffman: I guarantee to that and that went through the Park Commission for'
a number of meetings and it went to City Council .
Schroers: We compromised on that didn 't we and decided to allow 4 people I
outside per team? But then we didn't charge an additional fee .
Hoffman: We compromised by grandfathering anybody who was playing in the 1
City of Chanhassen in 1988 is now a legal player and then after that they
can have up to 4 outside players as well .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 -- Page 16
Schroers: But we did not charge a fee , an additional fee for the outside
' players?
Hoffman: No .
' Mady : We probably will be at some point in time .
Schroers: Yeah . We 'll just have to see what happens when the 3 new fields
' at Lake Ann come in and where we 're at but I really think that if it 's
justified , we just have to cut down the number of outside players and
that 's it . The ones from 1988 are grandfathered in but from 1989 on they
' should not be grandfathered in and I wouldn't see any problem with coming
back and saying okay , this year due to field shortages we 're only allowing
3 people per team or 2 people per team to live outside of the City . If we
justify that by our use , I certainly wouldn 't have a problem with it .
Hoffman: It 's a very difficult . Those types of rules are very difficult
to deal with as well . We usually receive 65-70 rosters with 12 to 20
' people per roster and trying to keep track of every individual player . If
you instate the live or work rule from the start and you can start fresh
which we attempted to do , then you can probably keep a handle on it . Right
now we 're really in a big gray area . A lot of that takes place out there .
It 's self policing to a certain point because the teams do talk amongst
each other and they 're . . .outside players on a league to league basis . . .
•
' Lash : But how are you , I mean an average player on a team that you play
once or twice a year , how are you supposed to know how many of the guys on
their team are eligible? •
Schroers: Oh , we know that . I mean we 've been out there playing for years
and years and years and when you see a strange face . You pick it out right
away . Where 'd that guy come from? Haven 't seen him before . Is he old
' enough? Does he live here? Those are the first questions everybody asks
because everybody 's saying , well that 's not fair .
Mady: Especially when you 're getting beat .
Schroers: Bringing in a brand new home run hitter that 's not legal , we 're
' not going to go for that so Todd 's right , it 's self policing .
Lash: But do guys have the courage to make a stink?
Schroers: Absolutely . The 35 year old league does not , I don't think
courage is the right word . I think an excuse to make a stink is better .
' Mady: I don 't think it 's as bad as it used to be but in previous years
I know it was real bad . 3-4 years ago .
Schroers: Yeah , it 's was like shut up and play ball you know .
Lash: So how do you know when the team comes to register , how do you know
how many of the guys?
11
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 17
1
Hoffman: We do a comparison of their 1988 roster to their new roster . If •
there are new folks on there , if they live or work in Chanhassen .
Lash: So how do you know if they live or work in Chanhassen?
Mady: Driver licenses . '
Hoffman: No , we 're not even to that point yet . It 's just by what they
report on their roster .
Mady: If it gets to be a big enough stink , you can .
Hoffman: Some cities , Eden Prairie , they collect a paycheck stub or driver,
license and a number of players go to ,the driver license bureau to change
their address to an apartment number that does not exist in the City of II Eden Prairie . Get a new license . Go register and go back and change the
address back . It 's incredible .
Schroers: I know that when you do go east of here they don 't make any
exceptions . The •rule is pretty much hard and fast and there is also a
penalty if you have an illegal player on your team , that your team is
kicked out of the league . I
Hoffman: Yeah , we attempted to instate that as well . To instate the
$100 .00 deposit from each team and if your team is found illegible , then we'
keep the $100 .00 fine .
Schroers: I don 't think the $100 .00 deposit to a team isn 't a big deal
because you can have 10 guys on a team , each chip in $10 .00 and they say
who cares? It 's only $10 .00 . But if you would say, if you have an illegal
player on your team , that your team is going to be banned from playing in
the league , that will be a deterrent .
Hoffman: If you get to that point , you need the support . . .
Andrews: A city ordinance to arrest them.
Schroers: That's why those Council members get all that pay .
Hoffman: Any other commission presentations?
Mady: As long as we 're talking about softball , at Lake Ann now that we
have new parking areas out there , I 'd like to see us start enforcing the no
parking in the driveways and grass . Now I realize we probably can 't
enforce it this year but we 've got to begin that education process of I
telling those guys you can 't park there . There are places to park and by
golly if you can 't walk that extra half a block to park in a legal spot ,
then you shouldn 't even be playing out here . I 'm tired of trying to drive
through some of these areas . It 's just ridiculous . I mean you 've got
about a 10 foot opening . If we had a problem out there and try to get an
ambulance in , it 's just a mess . I would like to see us begin that
education process with letters out to each one of the teams this year
asking to inform their people . Telling them that next year they 'll be
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 18
1
informed at the league meetings , the pre-season league meetings and then in
' the first 2 weeks of the season the public safety individuals will do
warnings and from that point forward they will be ticketed period . We 've
got to get this place cleaned up . We're been talking about it for 5 years
and now we 've got adequate parking out there . We should at least be making
them park where they belong instead of on the grass and the driveways . It 's
ridiculous . Thank you .
TRAIL PLAN, MARK KOEGLER.
Mady: Okay , the last thing is the trail plan with Mark Koegler unless
anyone else has anything else .
Koegler : If I may , you recall there was a joint meeting 4 weeks ago or
there abouts with City Council and at that session I think some good
' comments were heard about some potential changes . What we 're going to do
this evening was take a little agenda time and maybe a little more than 3
minutes and focus on , if you have comments specifically on what changes you
' would like to see made . We will make those and then bring a draft of the
plan back to you for a comprehensive review . At that meeting there was
discussion of trails be appropriate along major thoroughfares in the city .
' There was also discussion that there might be some interest in obtaining
easements in certain areas . Not that they would be developed now but that
they would be available in the future . That kind of brings to mind a
question that if you 're going to take easements , where do you take them?
' What governs where you take them which begins to say , do you have maybe a
plan that 's phase I that is major thoroughfares and do you have an ultimate
kind of plan that says this is what we 'd like to achieve in 20 years or 30
years so you know where you're getting your easements . Some of the other
things that were talked about . Questions I guess that I have back to the
Commission regarding nature trails . Should those be designated on the plan
and if so , where? I think there 's a couple of philosphies that you could
' look at there . There seemed to be major corridors that at least from my
perception there was pretty much unanimous agreement that someday warranted
a nature trail and Bluff Creek corridor was one of those . Beyond that I
' think there 's a couple philosophies that you can support . One is that
maybe nature trails are appropriate in other areas and you designate them .
The other would be that nature trails are appropriate within the boundaries
' of parks such that targeting hypothetically Lake St . Joe . If there 's ever
park property acquired out there , there 's on the west side of that lake
there 's wonderful opportunities for nature trails . If you 've ever been in
that area . You could argue that those trails should be in the park rather
' than around the lake impacting private property and so forth so I think
that 's another philosophy you may want to give some thought to . And then
finally I guess I elude to maybe the plan needs to be a little bit more
' specific with regard to what the City 's policy is on trails and
particularly on the placement of trails . In many areas it serves well to
have access points off cul-de-sacs to allow people to get into parks where
you have extremely long block situations . Presumably if there 's adequate
notice and the people know what they 're buying when they buy the lot , that
works well . If they don't know , then they come and see you afterwards and
they 're not happy campers . That is a common subdivision technique in any
tcommunity you go into that many times the only way to get into a park for a
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 19
half mile area , whatever is with one of these access points . So is that an
acceptable solution still? I think in general the tone was let 's try to II
avoid in all cases trails that go between private lot lines . It causes
friction with people using their backyards and wanting to add decks and
whatever it might be . So I think all we 're really after tonight is a
fairly brief discussion on some of your general philosophical thoughts .
Where do you want to go with this? It 's clear that there needs to be a
scaling down of what was envisioned as a first phase . In my own mind it 's
a little less clear as to what you want to do. Do you still want an
ultimate plan? And that could be totally explained in the text that that
is a long range plan . Whether that 's 20 years . What direction do you want
to proceed and we 'll set about to revise that and bring that back to you . II
Andrews: I think we should still retain the ultimate goal . There was a
lot of discussion about the joint meeting that we should or should not . I I
think it is important to have an ultimate goal so that we do have a puzzle
where all the pieces do fit together as developments proceed in our
community . I also agree that we should look at perhaps a smaller Phase I
that 's doable in a length of time that , at least for me personally , I think'
for some of the other members of the commission here that we can deal with
a project that 's small enough to see it from beginning to end so it 's not
constantly in a state of change and state of planning but it gets into a I
state of actual construction . I think it 's going to be difficult to
prioritize because in a lot of the areas that we desparately want trails
are also areas that are the most difficult to acquire the property . I
don 't know how we 're going to deal with that . To have a trail along TH 101'
which is an area that we desparately need is a great idea but from what
I 've been told , it 's basically a physical impossibility that it 's going to in
happen until TH 101 is dramatically improved and there is apparently no
even wild guess as to when that might happen . So it 's a very difficult
problem of wishing what we want and making happen what's possible .
Mady: I had a couple thoughts . Kind of taking off on Jim 's thought there I
on TN 101 is I 'd like to see on TH 101 north and I think that 's where the
big problem is really is north . South isn 't bad in most places because it
isn 't developed yet but in north , I 'd like to see us do in the next year ,
do a feasibility study on the north because there may be an opportunity in
some areas . What I 'm thinking specifically is in the farthest north area
maybe where we could at least poll a couple blocks on either side of .
Andrews: Kurvers?
Mady: Not Kurvers . Further down . Where you can get people into the park .'
North Lotus Lake Park . That might be doeable . I know where you get on the
curve up here , a skyhook is about the only way it works and they haven 't I
invented those yet . So I think we need to find out if there are pieces
that are doable and how much and how that all impacts . I think we can
learn that . A Phase I concept is great . Something that 's , Phase I
probably , the way we 're going now , a 5 year plan type of deal and a 5 year 1
plan means the points of Minnewashta, CR 17 , TH 101 north and south .
Really only about 4 , maybe 4 or 5 , 6 roads .
Andrews: Collectors . . .
I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 20
Mady: When we get into the 20 year or the forever future plan , I think
' still the whole concept , the whole deal still works . It doesn 't
necessarily mean it 's going to be done now . It doesn 't mean it 's going to
be done 15 years from now . It 's just as opportunities are presented , they
' should be reviewed and it 's still an ultimate goal for the City and I don 't
think that 's a bad idea . On new development , we may have been more
aggressive than we needed to be . I think what happens there is we took a
look at the survey 3 years back and saw that 78% of the people , whatever it
' was wanted trails badly and geez thought maybe we need them . We need them
all over the place and we need them now . We jumped all over . Maybe what
we need is what we built , similar to what we 've built and I 'm thinking of
' streets such as Carver Beach Road and Laredo here that are , I 'm not sure
what the term is on the traffic plan but they 're kind of a collector type
of street . They 're not , just because ,they 're not a thru street but they 're
more than a thru street . They 're more , I don 't know what the term is but
' there is a term for them I 'm sure . I would see that in new development ,
those are the type of streets where we 'd need to build them right away
because that 's where all your traffic is and then the thru streets that are
' more residential quiet streets , well if there 's a park on them , then I see
where we need to but if there 's not , I can see where we don 't need to do
something maybe initially anyway . Maybe easements is the route to go with
' some areas but I think there's still important areas to be actively
pursuing .
Schroers: I think that it is important that we do have a master plan laid
' out for what we would like to see . In the past we were pretty firm in our
belief that all the trails should be off road trails and we should be
consistent and I think that is the ideal situation . Unfortunately we don 't
' live in an ideal work and I think it 's maybe unreasonable to expect that we
can accommodate that . What I would like to see us do is try and be more
reasonable and where it is just too expensive to put in off street trail ,
look at putting on street trail and to prioritize our progress or our Phase
I according to it 's feasibility . I guess what I 'm saying is that I would
like to see us go to work on something that we can get accomplished .
Taking advantage of utility easements and road improvements . As long as
' it 's going to make a connection in our overall plan . If it 's reasonable
and affordable to do it , let 's prioritize and make those types of areas
Phase I so that we get on with the construction and get the trails going
' rather than continually being in a planning stage . Did I lose anyone
there?
Lash: Is this getting any less gray or is this just , this isn 't getting a
lot clearer for me .
Koegler : I 've got a couple of specific follow-up questions .
' Lash: Okay . I guess I can agree with some of the things that , some of the
points brought up here . I think some of them were very good . I tend to
' disagree Larry with your on street . I 'm just not comfortable with those .
To me I feel like , and I 've walked on Lake Lucy Road you know where the
line is painted there and it 's sort of like it gives people a false sense
of security because there 's this line painted there . You 're suppose to
figure you 're a little safer and you won't get run over and that 's not
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 21
going to stop somebody from running over the line or running you over . I
mean I would personally , if we're going to have them off street , like you
said would be the first choice but if we can't get it off street , I 'm just
not comfortable .
Schroers: Can I respond to that? '
Lash: Yeah .
Schroers: I ride bicycle and jog a lot and I would just rather have that
on street than nothing because people are going to try to get to where they
want to go to anyway and when you have nothing , then instead of having the I
cars come 3 feet from you , they 're coming 6 inches from you and all you 've
got is a loose gravel area if you 're riding your bicycle and you 're going
off in there and you could conceiveably fall down and fall into the path of
a car where at least you have that much more space if it 's off street .
What I 'm saying is , an on street trail is better than no trail .
Lash: But you like the off street a lot better? '
Schroers: Oh yes , definitely . But the cost involved with off street trail
is just going to prohibit us from having trails in some places so it 's kind'
of like settling for second best but it 's definitely safer having a bike
lane than not having a bike lane in an area where people use it . If you
get to , you go down to where the county line is or a little bit beyond and I
then it stops and there is no bike lane up past the Catholic Church there
in Excelsior and it gets a lot more uncomfortable as soon as you get out of
that bike lane .
Lash: Okay . And then I think we did talk about a feasibility study on TH I
101 didn 't we?
Mady: Yeah , but we 've been bouncing it around . , I
Lash: Yeah . I think we 've discussed that and agreed that that 's something'
we need to pursue . . . I mean I think it was at the meeting it was fairly
clear that I think we were all in pretty general agreement that we want to
try to pursue the major corridors but I think that 's where we need to have
everybody sit down and figure out what they think are the major corridors 111
and prioritize the order you 'd like to see them done and then get back
together and see how much we can agree on . On which ones they are and
within how many years we 'd like to see that accomplished and I have I
somewhat of a problem with some of these things because if it's a 20 or a
15 or 50 year or forever year plan, I have a problem with some of these
because how are we going to know in 50 years what's going to be there and
if that 's where we want to have the trail or if that 's where the road is
still going to be in 50 years or if it 's going to be 2 blocks over or
whatever and then our plan is all messed up and we 've taken easements maybe
where we didn't need them and don't have them where we do need them so
I have a problem with having it be a 50 year forever lifetime kind of plan ,
Jim , I was following what you were saying as far as in neighborhoods taking
easements on what you consider to be a collector , whatever . Like on Laredo'
out here by the school , that makes sense . You have kids walking to and
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 22
1
from school . That makes sense but I think the only way we can do that is
when the plan for the development comes in and we see how it 's laid out and
look at it and see which street in it is probably the main route for people
that are going to be going in and out of the development . So to look at
' this plan of Chanhassen now , this map and say well we want a trail right
here . Well how do we know that 's where there 's going to be the main .
' Mady: See I think you 're missing the trip . When I 'm talking about
collectors , that 's obviously for new developments and we don't know where
those will be . They go in the verbage in the plan .
' Lash: Okay , but then that 's sort of leaving .
Mady : Because we don 't know .
' Lash : Right .
Mady: The plan here is simply , these are existing streets that we know
about but a plan is always looking towards the future and you don 't know
what the future is so like your comment on if the road gets moved , well at
least if you put it on the plan that you want a trail on that street , they
' move the road . They obviously when they review the plan , the plan that 's
already there , when they pull the change and they will see that that road
was planned to have it and know to do it instead of not having it on a .
' plan . Then you 're starting with , well what do we need to do with this? At
least you have it in writing that that 's what you want to do and then they
just transfer it over with it .
' Lash: But are you saying to me that everywhere there 's one of these lines
on this map that there is an existing road?
' Mady: Most of it , the one from Lake Ann , the Lake Minnewashta across the
property there where that 's an utility easement , those are pre-planned . A
lot of these easements already exist .
Lash: Yeah , but what about this over here . This isn 't a road is it? By
Lake Minnewashta coming down here?
' Schroers: Isn't that the one from the Arboretum that goes into the Lake
Minnewashta Park there? It 's suppose to cross from the Arboretum and then
go up into Lake Minnewashta Park?
Mady: I know that road got discussed this year . The one right along
Minnewashta there . I don't know how that ultimately ended up .
Lash: Dogwood right here?
Mady: Yeah .
Lash: But there 's no road here I don 't think . Well yeah , here 's Tanadoona
Drive but then going north . Is that a road there?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 23
I
Koegler : That Pemton development is on the south side there . There is no
physical connection of the street due to grade . If memory serves me , there'
is an easement connection there which is why that line was originally drawn
in that location .
Lash: Okay . And then right in this area which I think is Saddlebrook . I I
mean it 's now Saddlebrook but this had to have been drawn before
Saddlebrook was put in there .
Mady: No , Saddlebrook came out in front of us . See we looked at
Saddlebrook probably 3 years ago .
Lash: It doesn 't show any lots on there .
Koegler : This is an old base map . You 're correct in that the overlay has
been over the top of it was meant to reflect what's in place in I
Saddlebrook . It may not be 100% accurate . I 'll have to check that .
Lash: So are you saying that all the lines on here are on roads? '
Koegler : They 're not necessarily . The vast majority of them are . An
example of one that 's not is if you look over at Carver Beach . The beach
portion . Some of that 's on the street but as you proceed northward towards
Pleasant View , portions of that are either off street or in reality would
veer into the Fox Chase development . It has another name now perhaps and
get on up into the brown area so that one is exempt . . . The one that was
pointed to a moment ago between Lake Ann and the park , the line that 's on
there is kind of a generalized line . It 's meant to follow the utility
alignment . There was some down on the south side of Chanhassen Estates for
example that was meant to go through the parkland and eventually follow the
creek and then connect to Lake Susan so there 's another segment . This map
is , it 's outdated in several ways . There are some street changes that I I
think need to mandate some trail changes and a graphic example of that is
TH 101 . The City 's planning efforts and investment now are to reroute that
essentially to Market Blvd . to intersect with TH 5 . I don 't think you need'
two parallel links there that close together . Presumably that would be
shifted over to the Market Blvd . construction would come off of what is now.
TH 101 . There are some other potential redundancies on the west side of
Lake Susan where we use County 17 that also use the area to the east of I
there and obviously in a tighter market , tighter dollar situation , you 're
not going to build both of those links . Your priorities would tell you
that that doesn't make a lot of sense . '
Mady: But those were developed back when we were looking at the Comp Plan .
Andrews: I have a couple , if Jan's done . '
Lash: Yeah , I 'm done . Let 's just keep going .
Andrew: I 'd just like to see funding as part of the ongoing discussion '
too . A lot of this , it 's pie in the sky if we don 't have any potential way
to fund it and I think we need to be advised as to potential sources of
funding so that , you know we agree that north TH 101 is a high demand area I
1 . .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 24
I
for a trail but it 's probably one of the most expensive areas we could pick
' to try to put a trail in . If we prioritize it as the biggest need for the
most expensive , it may not , it 's not feasible . Economically feasible . So
we have a dilemma between the trails that are the highest demand but the
least economically feasible versus the trails that are in less of a demand
' but more economically feasible . We 'll have to balance that as a commission
as to really being which ones are most important from an overall
feasibility .
' Koegler : Part of what we 'll come back to you along with graph text will be
some budget information in terms of what funds are available now based upon
what we 're projecting for building permit growth . What 's going to be
happening in the next 5 years . I think that ties into that . Another thing
that we 're playing with is trying to break out TH 101 is maybe not a good
example . Minnewashta Parkway is a very good example . One that 's going to
' be rebuilt in the near future . What 's the cost of trail there if it 's done
in conjunction with the street project? Or if the street project doesn 't
happen for some reason , what 's the cost of putting the trail in? Looking
' at it both ways because that has a big impact as you pointed out . TH 101
is another area where ideally if you regrade the road and built a road to
another standard and put a trail in simultaneously . I like Jim 's idea and •
' I don 't know that it 's been really explored before . You know is there a
northern segment that makes sense that is a piece of it that will connect
at least to the segment that Eden Prairie has going off of Duck Lake Trail
area . To at least get some movement along TH 101 for as many people as is
practical to do so .
Andrews: From what Kurver 's point northward there 's not a lot of property
' owners to deal with . Once you get down close to town , you 've got about 87
property owners .
Mady: All within 30 feet .
Andrews: Yeah , they have like a 30 feet of frontage and about 50 feet
between their picture window and the highway .
Koegler : And they have 5 driveways and 13 mailboxes .
' Mady: All within 100 feet of each other .
Koegler : And the grade down there is extremely difficult .
Andrews: We could always put in a subway . Maybe that would be cheaper . I
was just thinking , it would probably be a lot cheaper just to have a full
duty city bus thing and people could call for rides . It would probably
' cost us less money to do that than to build a trail .
Lash: A lot of exercise too .
' Mady: Maybe Hennepin County will want to put one of their .
Andrews: Light rail transit . That 's what we need .
1
Park and Rec Commission Meeting '
June 26 , 1990 - Page 25
I
Lash: Another thing I should say is , when Dawne called me I mentioned that
this was on too and I asked her if she had any input that she wanted on and'
she said that she would definitely be in favor of continuing to keep this
nature trail along Bluff Creek . She thinks that 's something that you know
really important and she 'd like to see that remain . Then do we want to
discuss nature trails more than that?
Mady: Does anybody have any ideas outside of the circles on here of other
nature trails? '
Lash: You know , I guess if we 're looking at this , some of these that we
have that are around lakes and in some of those areas , I guess I don 't
know . I wouldn 't have a problem with some of those being nature trails .
Andrews : Part of my problem is , I just , personally I don 't have enough
familiarity with the whole city to know what 's out there . Maybe what we
could do is maybe divide among ourselves a certain area to go out and look
around . I don 't have the time nor the memory to look at the whole city to
think well this might be a good spot or this might not be but maybe as part"
of our committee work or work group we could carve this up into sections
and say well you take this area . You go out and see if you see any new
ideas or new areas for trails or walkways . A lot of these things you guys
talk about . I can 't envision them at all . I have no idea what you 're
talking about . I think it 's a great idea .
Lash: That 's why we live in different areas . '
Schroers: I see a lot of potential for multi-use trail on the whole ,
pretty much the entire new service area that they just put in and I don 't I
know why those trails can 't serve as nature trails as well as a cross
country ski trail .
Lash: What are you talking about the new service area? '
Schroers: The new major sewer collector that they put in . The one that
runs there . There 's no reason that they couldn 't be designated nature
trail/cross country ski trail and just multi-purpose trail . I mean it goes
through the countryside .
Mady: This one? '
Schroers: Well this one here and then where it goes down past Lake Susan '
and Rice Marsh and down in there . That trail could serve a lot of
different functions .
Lash: See that 's something that we could hopefully get because if you 're I
not , what 's the major expense of doing something like that?
Koegler : Doing the nature trails versus?
Lash: Yeah .
, .
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 26
1
Koegler : Just establishing grade and some kind of appropriate walking
turf . Whether that 's to be a mowed area or whether that 's to be whatever
surfacing but obviously is much , much less costly than putting in a
bituminous ribbon to ride bikes on and skate on and whatever else .
Lash: So maybe one of our things we should kick around a little bit is on
major collections go for off street bituminous things that get people off
of the road but in a lot of the other areas , try to opt for a nature trail
' at least to get us started so we 've got some collectors . You 're not going
to be going on collectors all over town you know and it 's not going to be
all handicapped accessible but if you 're walking or jogging or something ,
' you could make connections and if it 's not a paved trail , that would be
okay too .
Schroers : On a turf trail you can ride horses . You can ride mountain
' bikes . You can walk . You can cross country ski on it in the wintertime .
You could designate a portion of it for snowmobiling . Snowmobiling and
cross country skiing do not go well together but you know , some places you
can designate certain areas where it 's for cross country skiing only and
for other areas where it would fit into , the snowmobile route . A portion
of it could be used for snowmobiling .
' Andrews: I ' ll say one thing . If we as a commission and as a city were
able to construct some trail along one of these major busy thoroughfares , I
' think it 'd make it a lot easier to secure future funding . Right now so
little of this trail system is really obviously visible from high traffic
areas . If we came back for a referendum for future funding of a larger
project , it would sure be nice to say look it . We did this . It was a
' success . 'There it is . People are using it . Now let 's expand on it . I
get frustrated because it seems like this is a project that has no
beginning and no middle and no end . I think by breaking into these smaller
sections , maybe we could have some small successes and get the backing that
we need to get a little bit more ambitious .
Koegler : The construction of TH 5 will help the cause eventually also .
When that has a trail all the way through as much of Chanhassen as they get
done and then on through Eden Prairie . That will be a very visible link
obviously .
' Lash: It will be a connector to any of the others that we can get going
north and south .
Koegler : Yeah and the advantage of that is right now that TH 5 really is
the major east/west feed that really pretty well goes through the middle of
the developed area of the city . What 's likely to be the developed area of
the City through at least the year 2000 so you 've got that spine running
right through the middle that you can connect to and at least have eastern
access if nothing else .
Schroers: At what. point Mark do you include signage? I mean does that go
in right along with the construction or is that something that you have to
budget for separately? Signage does help a lot in defining , letting people
know that there is a trail there and where it goes .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting '
June 26 , 1990 - Page 27
Koegler : It should be part of any construction . One of the project
details just as is the grading for the trail and the restoration and
everything else should be signage . It clearly should be part of it when all
goes in and get people to use it as fast as possible I would think is your
primary goal so that you can promote safe useage .
Schroers: So you normally just include signage in the cost of the
construction of the trail? I
Koegler : Yes . It 's one of the cost items in the project . Just as street
signs are in any road improvement project . There are signage manuals that
are involved in that too . Absolutely . '
Lash: I guess another thing we need to make sure we keep in mind , going
back to your comments earlier tonight about the trail by Lake Ann and they
mowed it and it was all full of grass and it was a mess . And Todd 's
commetts about the maintenance people being swamped and back logged
already . You know I think we really need to try and keep in mind what I
we 're doing here and what maintenance costs are going to be to the City, in
the end . I mean it 's not only the cost of the trail and putting it in but
it 's forever then the commitment to having a bunch of guys maintaining them
and figuring out how much of a cost that 's going to be to the City than no I
mowed trail .
Koegler : That is the drawback . Unless it gets heavy enough useage that
the turf stays down to some degree , mowing those if you get miles of trails'
obviously is quite time consuming .
Schroers: What seems to be happening along with prioritizing sections of I
trail and that sort of thing is also prioritizing work projects for the
maintenance . We 're dealing with that , the exact same issue . We have got
more to do than we can possibly do so we just have to hit the high spots .
Pick out what 's important . Do that and other things have to wait until you I
have the time or until budgets are adjusted and more people are put on to
deal with it .
Lash: Yeah , but you hate to spend the money doing the grading and all of
that to make it nice and have enough guys to mow it at the beginning of the
season and then that 's it . Nobody can use it for the rest of the year . I 'd'
hate to see us get into a spot like that .
Schroers: It doesn 't have to be mowed like your grass every week . You can
get by with mowing it like once every 3 weeks and it still looks like a
trail . You can still see that it 's been mowed and you can still walk
through it reasonably well if you want to and there certainly would be no I
problem riding a horse through it or mountain bikes can go through it . It
doesn 't have to be meticulously manicured but the most important thing on
the turf trail is the initial preparation . What we feel works the best is
just going over it with farm implements . Farm machinery and run a plow
through it . Plow it . Then disc it . Then drag it . Then you run your
seeder over that and by the time you get done with like those 4 processes ,
you have a reasonably level , flat surface and it works out pretty well . II But if you just go out and mow it as it is , that 's not really acceptable .
1 . .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 28
You get a pretty rough course .
Hoffman: A newest note as far as the bright spot in our park maintenance
division is that on this Monday Charlie Siegel started as a new full time
' maintenance person . As a 6 month park maintenance full time during the
summer months and 6 month mechanic for the public works department during
the winter . So now we do have Dale , Dean and Charlie Eiler who 's doing the
majority of the downtown maintenance and then now Charlie Siegel who will
' be the third full time staff person for the park maintenance as well as the
three part time summer maintenance . People that do the majority of the
ballfield grading and park . . . Good news huh Larry?
Schroers : Yes .
Lash: Mark , maybe what you 're talking about coming back with an updated
map here . Is that what you said earlier?
Koegler : Yeah , updated map and text as well as some cost data . That will
' be , ww did that quite some time ago and there was a fair amount of cost
estimation that went into the original Phase I plan but it was all tied to
the fact that this pot of money was there in the referendum which obviously
' almost made it but didn 't . Now no effort has been made since then to say
okay here 's what these costs are . Here 's more realistically what our
resources are . Here 's what we can do in 5 years . Here 's what we can do in
' maybe 1 year so we can show people we 're making progress .
Andrews: My biggest problem is I 'm a little bit ignorant of how funds
could be raised . I mean I look at the north TH 101 project and I have no
' concept of the money but I know from kind of a sense that that 's got to be
incredibly expensive to consider that as a stand alone project . I look at
something like Lake Minnewashta . There we 've got much more of an economic
' opportunity . Like I said before , it 's the need versus feasibility and you
made a comment earlier about how we will have an existing east/west spine
really fairly quickly in our overall plan . I mean it will be here probably
the first thing will happen really and it would be important for us to look
' at those north/south linkages . The key ones and if we could get those in
place , it will look good because we can show something that we 've
accomplished something and then we can start expanding off of those key
north/south connections then later . I guess I feel like what 's next . How
are we going to make progress although I feel like we 're treading water and
not going anywhere . Are we in the position now where we 're going to hear
' back or are we supposed to take some action ourselves here?
Koegler : Well it generally is easier to get discussion on items if I bring
you something to critique . By all means if you want to divide up and take
a piece and look at an area of the community , do so as that would be
helpful but I think probably taking these comments that I 've noted plus the
comments from the previous meeting and let us come back with a draft
' revised plan that maybe is a Phase I tied to some resources and what they
can be accomplished . You may disagree and you may change our priorities
but that may not change the budget a whole lot . If we move it from CR 17
to Galpin , that probably doesn 't have a major impact necessarily on the
budget . If we move it from CR 17 to IN 101 , obviously it does . But let us
Park and Rec Commission Meeting '
June 26 , 1990 - Page 29
1
take a shot at it perhaps .
Andrews: I look at the map here and I think well , there 's probably what , 5,
or 6 potential north/south major routes and more than likely ultimately
we 'd want to have something on almost every one of those over a 20 year
plan at least so we could probably look at, I guess I look at that as let 's "
prioritize those 6 or 7 potential north/south routes as our Phase I plan . I
don 't know if anybody else agrees with that or not . The other comment I
had was we 're talking about the trails versus , I get confused here . Trails '
versus paths . And we talk about so many different types of uses for nature
trails , I wonder if we 're trying to make them a feature that 's so versatile
that it's impossible to provide, to go ahead and provide a nature trail . I '
mean if it 's going to be horses and snowmobiles and , is it possible to have
a trail that can really suit all those needs or are we more in a position
where a certain set of nature trails is going to be designated as horse
trails and another section would be horses would not be allowed? Is it
feasible to have a nature trail that really can suit all those uses at
once?
Lash: Generally I wouldn 't think any nature trails that would be north of II
TH 5 would be suitable for horses because most people don 't have horses
north of TH 5 so you 'd have to drive , trailer your horse up north of TH 5 . II
Mady: You do have in the Minnewashta area and in Lake Lucy there 's some
still but .
Lash: Yeah , but very few . I think the majority of them are south of TH 5
down closer to Lake Riley .
Schroers: You know just because you have a multi-purpose trail , you don 't II
have to designate it for something specifically and it certainly can , a
multi-use trail certainly can serve as a nature trail . If it runs in the I
area of town , if you take this , what do you call that?
Lash: Interceptor?
Schroers: That sewer line . Mark , do you have a name for that?
Koegler : Lake Ann Interceptor . I
Schroers: The Lake Ann Interceptor , okay . Between TH 41 and Lake Ann , if
you had mowed trail through there , there's all kinds of vegetation , birds ,
animals that you could see walking on that trail early in the morning or
late in the evening and of course the plants are there all day long that
anyone can see if they want to . You can observe all kinds of nature
walking along there and that wouldn't be harmed in any way by someone going '
through there on cross country skis or on a mountain bike or even if it was
snowmobiled on . You can go on any snowmobile trail around and walk down it
and you 're not going to go very far without seeing deer tracks . I mean the '
wildlife just more or less adjusts . You don't chase them out of the area
just because a trail 's there . In fact sometimes they 're drawn to the trail
because it 's kind of an open area where they 'll come to graze and get away
from insects and that sort of thing . Then on the other hand , if the turf
1 . .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 30
trail goes right through a residential neighborhood where it 's all
' developed around it , then it wouldn 't lend itself much to being a nature
trail but where it runs . Between TH 41 and Lake Ann and down along Lake
Susan and along past Rice Marsh there , that would suit just about any need
that you want to use it for .
Andrews: I guess the main thing is if we 've got the easement , we can do
something with it . If we don 't have it , it 's a waste .
Schroers : Do we have any kind of easement along that interceptor?
' Koegler : I am not sure . I don 't believe at the present time there is an
easement . It would have to be secured . I 'm not 100% sure on that though .
We 'll have to check .
Mady : Mark , did you have any specific questions? You had mentioned you
had some .
Koegler : I think you got into those . I had some questions on nature
trails and I think you kind of led discussion into that because that was
one of the areas of concern I had as to how that was to be handled . Some
' of that to a certain degree is going to be self policing . If you look at
that extreme southern Bluff Creek area . You put a nature trail in there
and the hardy souls are the only ones that are going to make it up those
grades . That 's not going to be a ski trail and it 's probably not going to
be horse accessible in many of those areas . It's really pretty rugged . As
you get up further north , yes . There 's mixed , probably mixed opportunity
there .
' Schroers : Also , if you just have a 2 foot wide path that 's designated as a
nature trail , you 're going to get very little use on it . Very little use .
' There 's going to be a few people that are going to go out there and want to
look at the plants and the birds and that sort of thing but most of the
people that are looking for recreation are not going to use it and I think
that would be a waste of a trail .
Andrews: I agree . I think you need about 30-40 feet . It 's pretty wide to
get any , 20 feet at minimum I would say .
Schroers: Yeah .
' Mady: Okay , is there anything else?
Lash: When you bring this back , is there a way then like the little circle
things show nature trail and then the other one is off street which to me
says bituminous .
Koegler : I think we need some obviously refined categories in there also
' because you know , some of these are realistically we can peg some of these
as off street and some of them probably can 't be as your discussion has
pointed out tonight . I think it becomes an issue then of do we try to do
that eventually as a lower priority so there 's something that 's better than
nothing . Yeah , we 'll look at breaking that down .
Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,
June 26 , 1990 - Page 31
1
Lash: And when you 're saying nature trail , when we were talking about a
mowed trail , is that a nature trail? '
Koegler : Yes .
Lash: We talked about 17 different , we call them 17 different things and II
don 't know for sure . . .
Schroers : It would probably be easier if we were talking about concrete , I
bituminous and turf . Those are the three . . .most categorized . Where
concrete is in development and bituminous would be along major collectors
and turf . '
Lash: Maybe those would be the three ,different things that you could show
there .
Mady: Standardized trails .
Koegler : The only place I would assume we 'll probably show concrete is
clearly in areas where it 's warranted yet it tends to be more urban . I 'm
assuming that we 're not going to get to the degree of detail that every
sidewalk , lineal foot of sidewalk in the city shows up on this plan because"
I don 't think , this is more promoting a larger scale , higher useage areas .
Not walks that are in place or might be in place in front of somebody 's
house .
Mady : Especially in new development . We handle that through your verbage
as to where you put them in a development and then when a development comes
in , when they lay their streets out for the development plan , they know
what they have to do .
Andrews: What I 'd like to see are the high traffic , the collectors and the'
connectors I guess is what I 'd call them . You 're right , you don 't need
every neighborhood . It 'd just be such a tangled mess it 'd look like
somebody dropped spaghetti on the map .
Mady: It does already but .
Koegler : We 'll put together some revised language . Revised maps for you II
to review and then try to get some dollar figures together for a real world
scenario .
Mady: I just have 2 comments that kind of go along with the trail idea .
Over the last 3 years whenever we 're talking about trails and sidewalks ,
for winter we 've told people that the City would not require you to shovel
your sidewalk that went by your house . It has been made known to us that I
the City has on the books an ordinance that requires you to if you have a
sidewalk out in front of your property, you have to shovel it . Since we 've
been saying for the last 3 years , the City as a whole has been saying that II
no , that 's not the case . I think the City needs to address that ordinance
soon and my thoughts on it are , you don't shovel it unless it 's maybe in
front of commercial property or it is a particular segment that is going toll
be named specifically in the ordinance .
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
June 26 , 1990 - Page 32
Lash: I would think that most of the places where there are sidewalks ,
' they were put there specifically for a reason and then if they 're not
shoveled , then you can 't use them . My prime example would be Laredo by the
school . That 's there so kids can walk on the sidewalk to school and then
' it 's not shoveled .
Mady: The City shovels that .
Lash: The City does that all the way along?
Mady : Yeah . The comment was made specifically about the downtown area .
So I think the area should state that in those areas , and maybe it 's and
this is just brainstorming but in front of commercial establishments . If
there 's a sidewalk , then the commercial establishment is responsible for it
' which is kind of how it 's usually handled . In front of residential areas ,
if the City deems they 're important enough to be shoveled , then the City
takes care of it which is how the City does it now anyway .
' Schroers : I guess I don 't see a problem with asking people to shovel the
sidewalk in front of their house .
' Mady : I don 't either but we 've already told people for the last 3 years
that we 're not going to require it and now we find the ordinance has been
on the books for how many years . Who knows . It 's an old ordinance some
just need to get consistent .
' Andrews: Perhaps what we need is something in the paper in the fall
advising of the ordinance , if it doesn 't get changed .
' Mady : Yeah , I think people should be informed of what it is .
Schroers: Everybody wants something done but they all want somebody else
' to do it for them you know . Get out and shovel your walk .
Andrews: What 's that little thing , don't tax me . Tax the guy behind the
' tree .
Mady: A couple other items . Somebody mentioned skateboarding . Everybody
' has read all "the letters to the editor in the Minneapolis paper concerning ,
there are a number of suburbs who 've banned skateboarding . Just to make
you guys aware , if we ever think of doing that , you'll have this place just
' as full as you did with the softball teams so don 't do it while I 'm going
to be here .
Schroers: Skateboarding , roller blading , we tried . We can't stop it .
' Lash: They tried that in Chaska .
11 Mady: Did they really? I don't see it as that big of a problem yet . Then
Lake Lucy Road trail being on street . Maybe we need to talk about someday ,
and I 've talked about this before , having an asphalt curb installed on that
line painted and then with openings wherever the sewers are so the water
can get off the street into there but otherwise there is some bituminous
•
I
•
Park and Rec Commission Meeting r
June 26 , 1990 -- Page 33
curb along that whole thing that separates the road and it 's painted so
there 's a little bit more safety in there . I don 't know if that 's
important or not but it 's an idea to throw out .
Schroers: I think that would be a hazard to bikers .
Andrews: What about putting in these raised reflectors that they can flop ,
fold down?
Mady: I don 't know if it 's a problem or not but I know I would hate to be I
out there .
Lash: You know those dots they have in California on the freeway? '
Mady: I know the problem is in Minnesota that always gets pulled up from
the snowplows . That 's why we don 't have them . I
Koegler : With an extra maintenance guy , you can put them back every year
Tight .
Mady : Hopkins is putting those in though . The kind Jim 's talking about .
The ones that fold down . They put some of those in on their streets . I
just looked at them and was amazed . Maybe they have some real super
cement . Thos3 were my only comments . If anybody has anything else for
discussion otherwise we can go home .
Lash: Will you check on that fire lane thing for me Todd?
Andrews: I want to make one comment about Lori . I 'm going to miss the
hard work she put in and appreciate what she did .
Schroers moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:30 p.m. .
Prepared by Nann Opheim
1
I
I