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6. PUD Library Annex, St. Hubert's Church CITY O F PC DATE: 8/1/90 I \ 1 T f CC DATE: 8/27/90 CHANHASSEN _ I \�I CASE #: 90 1 PUD '' _ • By: A1-Jaff/v I i STAFF REPORT I PROPOSAL: Concept Plan Approval for a Planned Unit Development/Research Center, Expansion of an Education Center and a Retirement Complex II— Z LOCATION: 7707 Great Plains Boulevard IIQ APPLICANT: Lundahl Architects for St. Hubert Church V Attn: Mr. Richard Lundahl 5509 Eden Prairie Road I ^ Minnetonka, MN 55345■ IQ . I PRESENT ZONING: IO, Office & Institutional IIACREAGE: 4.5835 acres £, . 1/ i I DENSITY: ._ ADJACENT ZONING AND 1)2;- -.Z�_�� LAND USE: N - RSF; single family I _ E RSF; single family _-�i_P1,C_ b W - CBD & R-12; " I < WATER AND SEWER: Available to the site I g ' PHYSICAL CHARACTER. : The site contains an existing church, 2 houses, a playground and a garage. There tli also exists a number of mature oak trees scattered over the easterly portion of the IMMO site. I2000 LAND USE PLAN: Public/Semi-Public II 1 l 1 A 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 tz--;,r, ....,R 1 -y�iY- •VI. ■ I %1, _ 7 0 ,Ivaii 116,26Mial t\ , k —, -,;trij 7- (r• - • R j7� if/ ) lli \ , � 6800"-Or a al liaV14 4 z �� ; 4PI 1146Ii; 6900 ter ,` : 1. IL St. Hubert PUD August 1, 1990 Page 2 BACKGROUND ' St. Hubert's Church has had a presence in the community that dates back to its early history. It has operated as a church and school pre-dating today's ordinances and requirements. On November 3, 1975, the City Council approved a conditional use permit for the parish of St. Hubert's to erect a complex consisting of a rectory, parish offices, meeting rooms/classrooms and a church structure. This involved the relocation of the church to the north side of West 78th Street. ' PROPOSAL/SUMMARY The applicant is requesting concept approval for a planned unit , development for an expansion which will include an atrium, a library, new classrooms and housing for the elderly. The requested addition will be located to the east of the existing St. Hubert's Church and school. The total square footage of the proposed addition will amount to 35,718 square feet. The plan also envisions renovation and reuse of areas vacated by relocation of school facilities. There will be 24 apartments designed for more elderly members of the congregation. Twenty-two of the apartments will be one-bedroom, two will have two bedrooms. Parking for the apartments will be accommodated in an underground structure. Due to the age of the residents, staff does not anticipate that full ordinance standards relative to parking are required. In explaining the development program to staff, Father Barry has emphasized the advantages of having the church, school and senior housing in close proximity to one another. It will allow senior church members to have full involvement with the church and promote relationships between the seniors and students. The school will also gain greatly improved classroom and administrative space under the proposal. Currently, eight classrooms exist at the church complex. Those classrooms will be converted into offices, staff lounge and room to expand the existing library. The proposed new classrooms will be located to the southeast corner of the property, while the senior housing quarters will be located to the northeast corner. An enclosed court will be located in the center of the proposed addition to allow the proposed bedrooms and classrooms to have natural light. Access to the site will be obtained off of State Hwy. 101, Frontier , Trail and Great Plains Boulevard. Due to the design and type of development, relatively low traffic volumes will be experienced on Frontier Trail. New bus access is proposed via a looped driveway on 78th Street. Staff believes this is acceptable since traffic .1 . ,I St. Hubert PUD August 1, 1990 Page 3 volumes are projected to drop following the realignment of Hwy. II 101. The City has been conducting a senior citizen needs assessment 11 study and preliminary results of this study indicate that there is a shortage in housing for the elderly. The proposed housing for the elderly in this project will probably not eliminate the shortage but it could help the situation. IIThe proposed classrooms and the housing for the elderly will be located on the site which currently contains 2 houses and a I garage. Those structures will be demolished and the new facilities will be erected. St. Hubert owns the 2 houses and garage. The applicant must go through the subdivision process to incorporate I the parcels where the houses site with the St. Hubert's Church parcel. Parking to serve the apartments is proposed to be located I underground and access to the parking will be obtained from Frontier Trail. Several new surface stalls are also provided. This site has an existing parking shortfall when only on-site stalls are considered and it is not possible to rectify this I. situation with this plan. However, efforts have been made to ensure that adequate parking is provided for all the new Idevelopment being proposed. PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION II On August 1, 1990, the Planning Commission reviewed the concept plan for St. Hubert's Church. The main issue of concern was the existing parking lot located to the west of the site being used as 11 a playground area by the 5th through 8th graders. The situation could be remedied by using drop arms to buffer the area while children are playing and to prevent vehicles from entering the I parking lot during that period of time. Father Barry addressed the situation and indicated that the parking lot has been used as playground for the past 15 years. Staff feels that drop arms would work adequately to solve this issue. The second issue was the I location of the existing playground area in relation to the elderly housing. Concerns were voiced in regard to the level of noise the children would be creating while playing and if it would disturb I the elderly. In response to that Father Barry indicated that the playground is used for 1k hours per day and that there is a distance of approximately 80 to 100 feet. The Planning Commission unanimously approved the PUD concept plan for St. Hubert's Church I expansion asking that details regarding recreational provisions and drainage be resolved when final plans are prepared. I 1 • • It IL St. Hubert PUD August 1, 1990 Page 4 Staff supports the use of the PUD ordinance for this proposal. The proposed mix of uses can only be accommodated with the flexibility it provides. In addition, the PUD's design flexibility is needed to accommodate the proposal in what is one of the City's older neighborhoods. We believe the plan is well designed. It represents an innovative concept that will allow an important element of our community to grow and adapt. Staff is recommending that the PUD concept plan be approved. ' Architecture Architecturally, the building will have a pleasant appearance. ' Atriums are proposed at the west and south entrances of the complex. It carries a touch of the architectural theme of the downtown area which will be a good transition point between downtown Chanhassen and the residential area to the east. The classrooms and the elderly housing are proposed to be at a height of 26 feet and setback approximately 25 feet from the property line. The majority of the houses in the neighborhood have setbacks that do not meet the zoning ordinance requirements because of the age of the neighborhood. Staff does not believe that the easterly elevation will be imposing on the houses across the street on Frontier Trail mainly because there is a large number of mature oak trees which the applicant intends to preserve. The building will not act as a barrier as there is a large number of windows and sliding doors that lead into balconies. The house at the northeast corner will be protected by existing mature trees on its site and also the new addition will be setback a distance of approximately 80 feet. The applicant is also proposing to buffer the new addition from the existing house with additional landscaping. The area north of the St. Hubert's Church will not be directly impacted by this new addition as there is a fair distance between the houses on the north side of Chan View and the proposed elderly housing. Staff does not foresee major traffic created on Frontier Trail as the proposed housing is for elderly. ' Access/Parking There are currently 154 parking stalls at the existing St. Hubert's , Church site. Access to this parking lot is obtained from Great Plains Boulevard. This parking area will remain as is. Twenty- three parking stalls are proposed to be located underground. Access to the underground parking will be obtained from Frontier Trail. A one-way entrance and exit are proposed. The underground parking will serve the elderly housing. The Zoning Ordinance I encourages the City to accept reductions in parking requirements for senior housing. Care should be exercised in granting this, however, since many seniors live active lifestyles and requires ample parking. In this instance, we note that while this is not a St. Hubert PUD August 1, 1990 Page 5 project for seniors requiring high levels of care, we believe the 1 parking will be adequate. Data has been provided by Father Barry indicating that proposed parking should be sufficient based upon a review of prospective residents. In addition, the apartments are relatively small and are not easily adaptable to larger, more intensive living situations. The underground stalls are supplemented by five new exterior stalls. Staff is recommending that, if possible, additional visitor parking be provided along Frontier Trail by providing indented parking areas with a relocated curbline. Five parking stalls are proposed at ground level at the northeast corner of the site. The stall located to the far east of that area should be eliminated so as to facilitate circulation and stay out of the ' right-of-way. A 15 foot wide landscaped buffer is proposed to the north of the 5 parking stalls to separate an existing house located on the northeast corner of the site which the church plans on purchasing in the future. This 15 foot buffer can be made narrower to allow for an additional parking stall. School buses will access the site from the south through Hwy. 101 to transport students attending school. Hwy. 101 is a busy one lane highway. In May, 1990, a traffic count was conducted to calculate the average number of trips per day. The results show 11, 080 trips per day. Hwy. 101 will be realigned in the near future which will reduce the number of trips considerably. Trip projection studies for the year 2000 indicate that 5,400 trips will be generated per day. With these numbers, staff feels comfortable with a bus loading area to be located off of Hwy. 101. Handicapped parking has not been addressed on the proposed plans. The applicant must provide one 12 foot wide handicapped parking stall. Three parking stalls are proposed to the east of the bus loading area. Staff ' feels uncomfortable with such a location as potential conflict with buses entering the facility off of Hwy. 101. For this reason staff recommends that those stalls be relocated to the north of the island proposed in front of the bus loading area. Enter only and ' exit only signs should be located at the access points on Hwy. 101 which leads into the bus loading area and the access points on Frontier Trail which leads into the underground parking to clarify ' that these accesses are one way traffic lanes or driveways. • Landscaping The landscaping concept plan that has been developed provides some detail. The applicant will try and preserve as many mature trees as possible. All of the existing oak trees along Frontier Trail will be saved. Green space and trees are proposed in the court . IL St. Hubert PUD I August 1, 1990 Page 6 I area north and east of the proposed elderly housing and south and east of the classroom section. Final plans should be sensitive to buffering the Frontier Trail elevation to protect nearby single family homes. The plans do not show the number of trees that will be lost. It is recommended that the applicant provide the number and size of caliper and have them replaced somewhere else on the site as required by ordinance. Drainage The site generally drains to the south and southeast. The proposed expansion will increase the percentage of impervious surface through the construction of building roofs, parking and driveway pavement areas. The Assistant City Engineer is requesting information on the roof drains, catch basins, and storm sewer improvements including design calculations to be submitted for the department's approval. He is also requesting that the applicant verify that provisions are incorporated to maintain the existing surface water discharge rate prior to the expansion for a 100 year 24 hour storm. There is a concern that existing pipe and downstream storage may be insufficient to accommodate increased 11 flow. If this proves to be the case, modifications to the site plan and/or improvements to the storm water system, will be required. Storm sewer systems should be sized to accommodate a 10 year storm event. Invert and pipe size information on all existing city storm facilities must be provided at all proposed connection locations. Grading 1 At this stage, plans do not indicate where proposed grading is going to take place. The Assistant City Engineer is requesting that the applicant provide plan information showing proposed grading contours over the entire site including all pavement areas, erosion control measures for implementation during and after construction should also be addressed. Given the current flat site topography and grading is not expected to be major. Utilities At this stage, the applicant has not provide enough information for City staff to decide whether new utility service connections will be needed or if existing service facilities will be used. This information supported with design calculations are requested to be provided at the preliminary final stage for the Assistant City Engineer. I 1 I . St. Hubert PUD August 1, 1990 ' Page 7 Signage The proposed plans do not show any signage plans. ' Platting A replat of the site is required to combine underlying lots into one tax parcel. It should be submitted concurrently with the formal PUD submittals. RECOMMENDATION ' As indicated before, the overall concept plan is an acceptable one, except for some changes addressed in the staff report. Staff recommends that the expansion of St. Hubert's Church be given PUD Concept Plan approval subject to the following: 1. Revise parking and access plans as requested. 2. Provide final landscaping and tree preservation plans responding to issues that have been raised. 3. Provide final engineering plans including utility, grading and storm drainage data: a. The applicant's engineer shall provide the City with calculations verifying storm drainage and water and sanitary sewer service design. 11 b. The applicant shall provide a grading plan showing proposed contours over the site including all pavement areas. The grading plan shall also include erosion control. II c. The applicant shall modify the parking arrangement adjacent to the bus loading area. d. The applicant shall provide the necessary easement area ' for the existing sanitary sewer crossing the northwest corner of the site. e. The applicant shall acquire and abide by all necessary agency permits, including a MnDOT driveway access permit. ' 4. Submit a concurrent subdivision application to combine underlying lots into a single tax parcel. 5. The applicant shall work with staff to find an acceptable solution to the playground/parking area. " It St. Hubert PUD August 1, 1990 Page 8 I ATTACHMENTS 1. Reduced plans. , 2. Letter from Father Barry dated August 3, 1990. 3. Overview of proposal from applicant. 4. Letter from Father Barry dated April 10, 1990. 5. Memo from Asst. City Engineer dated July 24, 1990. 6. 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ARCHITECT'S I 5509 EDEN PRAIRIE ROAD GLEN LAKE PROFESSIONAL BUILDING MINNETONKA, MINNESOTA 55345 TEL. [6121-933-3011 I 15 JUNE 1990 RE: ST. HUBERT 'S CATHOLIC CHURCH II CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA ADDITION AND REMODELING PROPOSAL: I TOTAL GROUND COVERAGE OF EXISTING STRUCTURES: II RECTORY AND GARAGE: 2 , 220 S .F. CHURCH, OFFICES, LIBRARY 15 , 531 .5 S .F . I AND STORAGE: SUB' - TOTAL 17 , 385 .5 S .F . I EXISTING SCHOOL, GYM, 18 , 222 S .F . OFFICES AND KITCHEN, ALL TO BE REMODELED: II TOTAL EXISTING STRUCTURES: 35 , 607 .5 S .F . II TOTAL GROUND COVERAGE OF PROPOSED NEW BUILDINGS : NEW ATRIUM AREA: 1 , 681 .5 S .F . I NEW LIBRARY ANNEX 1 , 203 S .F . AND CIRCULATION: I NEW SCHOOL ( 1 FLOOR) 10 , 609 .5 S .F . ' NEW HOUSING ( 1 FLOOR) 11 , 112 S .F. I TOTAL GROUND COVERAGE 24 , 606 S .F. II OF NEW STRUCTURES: PLUS ENCLOSED COURT: 5 , 806 .5 S .F. I PLUS TOTAL HARD SURFACED AREAS (PARKING LOTS AND II NEW ROADWAYS) 78, 237 S.F. TOTAL GROUND COVERAGE OF ALL BUILDINGS AND II HARD SURFACED AREAS 144, 257 S.F . TOTAL SITE AREA (FROM SURVEY ) 199 , 656 S .F . OR 4 .5835 ACRES TOTAL OPEN AREA 55 , 399 S .F . 2 1 .4.4Cgft PLUS ENCLOSED COURT 5 , 806 . 5 S .F . 7 II St. Huberts Church and School I 7707 Great Plains Blvd. Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317 Telephone: 934-9106 I n I August 3, 1990 1 Dear Members of the Chanhassen Planning Commission: ' our St. Hubert Catholic Community, more specifically for the In the name of ou y, P Y members of our own planning and building commissions, and certainly for myself, I need to express our sincere appreciation for the extremely gracious and encouraging way in which you received the Planned Unit Development proposal for our visioned expansion by way of renovation and building. We are most pleased that you so readily understand our vision and express ' your honest enthusiasm for it. Our plans are the culmination of four years of intense study of need and vision for the future (including a formal "Ten-year Plan," the result of input after nine months of study by thirteen subcommit- tees). The plans we submitted have received the approval of: A) The archbishop by way of the diocesean commission on finance and ' development. B) The St. Hubert Building Commission. 1 C) The St. Hubert Pastoral Council. (Eleven representatives responsible for expressing needs and opinions of thirteen specified areas of St. Hubert activities, including the education committee.) ' D) The St. Hubert Finance Council. E) The Entire St. Hubert Community - an overwhelming, positive, almost ' enthusiastic response registered by a parish public survey, taken at four Masses on a given weekend. ' We were frankly quite suprised at the concern expressed about "play space." Perhaps it is our fault for not indicating the parking lot as play space since ' we have been utilizing that area as such for the past fifteen years without any problems arising from auto traffic. The parking area is the most utilized of all the play areas, with the exception of the school gymnasium. ' Ms. Dimler was representing a very small group of parents from the Day 9 rY 9 P P Y School community who are more concerned about the relocating of the play "structures" than they are about play-space. Some of this group have been so radical that they have urged the elimination of the retirement complex as a way of providing space to save the play structure as it is. As pastoral leader, (though I readily understand that it springs from an honest concern ' 1 to provide "the very best" for their children) I cannot tolerate such a natur- 1 ally selfish and "tunnel-visioned" attitude. Beyond my priestly ministry, I am a professional educator - having spent the first twenty-one years of my priestly life in all phases of education... from teacher on every level (elementary through University) to Director of Educa- 1 tion for the entire diocese of Sious Falls, South Dakota. I have seen every kind of playground possible - from the streets next to an inner city school in Chicago, to a series of concrete terraces below the Cathedral school in Sious Falls, to black top and gravel areas one fifth the size of the St. Hubert parking lot, to an acre of beautifully landscaped area in one of "upper class" 1 areas of Nashville, Tennessee. I assure you, the play area we are providing (even excluding the gym area) is most adequate for our needs: A) Basically a half hour of recess otter the lunch period. B) Physical education classes - which use (almost exclusively) the school gymnasium and the parking lot: for softball, volleyball, , kick-ball, waffle ball, dodge ball, racing, physical fitness test- ing, etc. Ms. Ginny Martelle, present Day School principal, and I concur that the new location for the "play structures" immensely improves the supervision tasks 1 since it will confine the smaller children to a more manageable area. Surely you are aware of the liabilities we face when a "play-structure" is errected. We have already "suffered through" a heavy lawsuit and out-of-court settle- I ment because a child was injured in a fall off one of the slides. Insurance companies will tell you that they feel they have to "tolerate" these struc- tures, but they call them "attractive nuisances." We have had our insurance company inspect every aspect of existing and plan-for-new structure. Had I anticipated a question about the playground space, I surely would have 9 y been prepared with documentation that might have satisfied your concerns more easily. Basically, play space has been most adequate over the last f if- teen years. We are losing precious little of that space by the relocation of the play-structure. At the same time, we are enhancing our supervision cap- ' abilities - always a problem when children are involved. Hoping this alleviates some of your concerns, once more expressing our deep , appreciation for the respect with which you accept our "vision" for the fu- ture, and eager to see it all "ready-for-use," I am Always sincere in my ministry to and for the good of people, /)L . / /��,, 7;e-'�{ I I , , ''• HUBERT CATHOLIC COINIMINITY RENOVATION AND DIRANSIoIM PROPOSALS ' (PROFILE OF PLAN AND PURPOSE) ' OVERVIEW: THE RENOVATION/EXPANSION PLANS OF ST. HUBERT CATHOLIC COMMUNITY OF CHANHASSEN HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED ASA RESULT OF FOUR YEARS OF ' OBSERVATIONAL STUDY OF SPACE/ENVIRONMENT NEEDS FOR WORSHIP AND SACRAMENTAL LIFE OF ITS MEMBERS AND FOR EDUCATION NEEDS FOR ITS CHILDREN; THE STUDY CULMINATED IN A TEN YEAR PLAN PROMULGATED ' IN THE FALLOF 1988. THE RETIREMENT COMPLEX (THOUGH NOT A TOTAL- LY NEW CONCEPT IN CATHOLIC COMMUNITIES,) IS NEW IN THAT THIS COM- PLEX IS DELIBERATELY PLANNED TO BE CONNECTED TO THE EDUCATION ' CENTER AND TO THE CHURCH SANCTUARY. NARTHEX-ATRIUM-NEW LIBRARY ANNEX/RESEARCH CENTER... The narthex was conceived and designed as a means of alleviating some congregation overflow at some of the Sun- day and special HOLYDAY services. The provision for a new library and an annex (audio visuals to be gathered in this adult education space), is necessitated by the usage of present library space for the narthex. The atrium,contiguous to the narthex near the present church entrance, ' grew from the special environmental and space needs dictated by sacramental liturgical ser- vices and particularly by the NEW RITE OF CHRISTIAN BURIAL,which calls for an expanded vigil service for the dead at the church - the day (evening) before the internment. ' NEW EDUCATION CENTER... After assessing our needs and studying available space, archi- tects suggested we build a new,two-story,twelve room education center. A) It removes the agravation of almost intolerable noise created by the gymnasium activity in the center of the present eight classrooms. ' B) It provides for other space needs: 1. Classroom space for religious education of our children. 2.Added classrom space for our dayschool. ' 3. Cafteria. (presently do not have a cafeteria) 4. Secretary/principal office. 5. Nurse station. 6 Physical education/coach office. 7 Staff lounge. 8. Expanded religious education office space. 9. Expanded library space. ' 10. Extra meeting room. 1 1. More storage area. ' (THIS EXPANSION/REOVATION WILL NOT INCREASE THE POPULATION OF THE ACTIVITIES OF THESE AREAS...EXCEPT FOR CCD ON WEDNESDAY NIGHTS.) RETIREMENT COMPLEX: This complex is envisioned as an answer to many of the phy- sical, psychological,and spiritual needs of our elderly. It is a concept that completes the con- cept of total Christian community...and special christian community for the elderly. A) Direct connection to the sanctuary and education center allows for participation in all St. Hubert Church activities without having to face the weather. ' B) Develops a special community sharing with friends in the same faith community. 1 • 1 C) Utilizes the special bond that results from children/elderly relationships: 1. "Adopt a grandparent"..."adopt a grandchild" programs. 1 2. Special tutoring. 3. Lunch programs...eating with children. 4. Proven psychologically positive effect on elderly to be around children. D) Allows seniors to feel worthwhile as they can do little things for their church. 1. Flowers and lawn care. 2. Sanctuary care. 3. Office assistance. PARKING: A study of awareness of.need and plan has al- 1 ready been presented to city officials. The retirement complex will have underground parking. (A study of the first twenty-four applicants shows a total of 18 cars among 1 them.) PLAYGROUND: Adequate space is being provided. TREES: Some trees will be lost_._man y more will 1 b e planted. Almost all the maples will be saved. A few very nice oaks will be lost. LANSCAPING: Will provide plenty greenery... west side 1 of present school building will be landscaped with trees and shrubbery. i 1 1 1 1 I . St. Huberts Church and School 7707 Great Plains Blvd. Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317 Telephone: 934-9106 In' II IIApril 10 , 1990 Mr. Paul Kraus I City Planner Chanhassen City Hall 690 Coulter Drive IIChanhassen, Mn. 55317 Dear Paul : IThe enclosed brief is being sent as a preview of our on-going assessment of parking needs at St . Hubert Church. IIYou will note that the only really regular overflow occurs on Sunday mornings between 9 : 30 and 10 : 30 . It should not be getting I any worse since we note that the community members who don' t like crowded services tend to drift toward the earlier or later mass. Note also our vision for the future. We are planning ahead. II would like to meet with you sometime during the week after Easter, if that is possible . (The two weeks after that I will be IIgone on "spring break. ") Sincerely, I TA. 6d,f2/2cy -7 , (tF----- FR. BARRY SCHNEIDER,O. F.M. 1 PASTOR/ADMINISTRATOR II 1 II APR 111993 GI I OF CHANHASSEN I PARKING - AVAILABILITY AND NEED , ST. HUBERT CHURCH, CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA April , 1990 (An outline overview of parking availabilities and needs at the St. Hubert Catholic Community facilities in downtown Chanhassen) I As the 1990 ' s begin and St. Hubert ' s community continues to grow in numbers at a very fast pace , concerns arise about present and future overflows in the parking areas presently available . The following outline will indicate "trouble" times along with a vis- , ion for future parking space expansion. SATURDAYS -- 5 : 15 EVENING MASS No present problems involving overflow. Projections do not see this church service needing more space for at ' least three years . OVERFLOW DOES OCCUR on days when there is a wedding and the parish hall is used for reception and dinner. The advantage here is that the wedding guests are in the lot first and the overflow lasts just one ' hour --from 5 : 15 to 6 : 30 P.M. OVERFLOW ALSO OCCURS when there happens to be a church ' function at Old St. Hubert across the street - when guests of the Colonial Church are not knowledgeable about parking areas and use the St. Hubert lot. 1 ' . ! , SUNDAYS -- 8 : 00 A.M. MORNING MASS (Never an overflow and not foreseen to be a problem time . ) -- 9 : 30 A.M. MORNING MASS . . .This period of time sees ' the most frequent overflow since this is the ' most popular of the services because of the time slot and because there are classes for the 3-5 year-old children during the Mass . There is also some "holdover" from those who stay for rsocializing after the 8 : 00 A.M. Mass. There is also a parking overflow when events such as scout pancake breakfasts utilize our hall . THE PLANNED EXPANSION OF THE SANCTUARY INTO A SMALL NARTHEX WILL NOT ADD TO THE PARKING OVERFLOW SINCE THAT EXPANSION WILL BASICALLY JUST MOVE THE OVERFLOW CONGREGATION FROM PORTABLE CHAIRS PRESENTLY BEING USED IN THE REAR SANCTUARY. --11 : 30 A.M. MORNING MASS (No overflow problems ex- cept when there are breakfasts or socializing after the 9 : 30 Mass . ) THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS ON SCHOOL DAYS OR AT TIMES OF SPECIAL SCHOOL FUNCTIONS. NOR ARE THERE PROBLEMS ON RELIGIOUS EDUCATION ' EVENINGS SINCE PARENTS JUST DROP OFF THERE CHILDREN AND RETURN FOR THEM LATER. i 2 II 1 PRESENT SOLUTIONS: The church facilities committee is studying a realignment of parking stations in the lot--potentially offer- ing some twenty-four more parking stations . However, that plan would necessitate people having to "maneuver" their ways to the entrance rather than having clear "aisles. " I FUTURE PLANS : Properties contiguous to the present parking area , on the north and northeast will become available for purchase sometime in the future . ( Some in the very near future . ) At such time , St . Hubert will purchase those properties for future development , some of which will necessarily include ample park- ing space. RETIREMENT DWELLING: Underground parking will be provided for this development along with some open ' parking space for staff and guests . 1 EDUCATION BUILDING EXPANSION: This expansion will not increase the daytime population of the school buildings since it merely moves the student populace to a new area while providing needed office and meeting room space where present classrooms are located. i 1 1 3 i CITYOF CHANHASSEN ' 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Sharmin Al-Jaff, Planner I FROM: Charles Folch, Assistant City Engineer Ll DATE: July 24 , 1990 SUBJ: Review of PUD for St. Hubert Church Development of a Library Annex/Research Center , Expansion of the Education ' Center and a Retirement Complex File No. 90-17 Land Use Review At this time , a general engineering review of the site has been conducted. A complete review will be made when more detailed information is provided by the applicant at the preliminary/final submittal stage. ' DRAINAGE The existing site for the proposed expansion drains primarily to ' the south and southeast via overland flow. The majority of this area is a pervious surface. The proposed expansion will increase the percentage of impervious surfaces through construction of building roofs and parking and driveway pavement areas. ' Information on the location of roof drains, catch basins and storm sewer improvements , including design calculations, will be required for the next submittal . The applicant also needs to verify that provisions are incorporated to maintain the existing surface water discharge rate prior to the expansion for a 100-year 24-hour storm. Storm sewer systems should be sized to ' accommodate a 10-year storm event. Invert and pipe size information on all existing City storm facilities must be provided at all proposed connection locations. GRADING The applicant needs to provide plan information showing proposed grading contours over the entire site including all pavement areas . Erosion control measures for implementation during and after construction must be addressed. II Sharmin Al-Jaff I July 24, 1990 Page 2 I UTILITIES At this time it is not known if new utility service connections will be needed for the expansion or if existing service facilities will be used. This information supported with design calculations will need to be provided at the preliminary/final submittal stage. The plans submitted show a sanitary sewer extending through the ' northwest corner of the site that may have been constructed outside of the actual dedicated easement. If this is found to be so, a new or extended easement will need to be acquired for the I actual location of the sanitary sewer. STREETS Access driveway modifications are proposed on the east side off of Frontier Trail and on the south side off of Trunk Highway 101. The two accesses off of Frontier Trail will function as a one-way in and out system for the underground parking. These accesses will replace two existing residential driveways . Thus, there is no net increase in the number of accesses on this protion of Frontier Trail . There is currently one driveway access to this site from Trunk ' Highway 101 . The proposal will eliminate the existing access and create two new ones incorporated into a bus loading and unloading area. It is anticipated that this type of access system could function compatibly with the future traffic volume after Trunk Highway 101 is realigned and the present segment is reverted back to a residential collector street. However, a MnDOT driveway access permit will be required. Actual curb cut locations may be adjusted pending MnDOT review. Information on bus scheduling also needs to be provided to determine bus loading area capacity. "Enter only" and "exit only" signs will be required to establish a one-way traffic pattern through the loading area. PARKING Three visitor parking stalls are proposed north of the bus loading area. Cars backing out of these stalls could potentially conflict with buses entering the facility off of Trunk Highway 101. A viable alternative may be to locate these parking stalls on the south end of the loading area. I I 1 • ' Sharmin Al-Jaff July 24 , 1990 Page 3 RECOMMENDED CONDITIONS 1 . The applicant' s engineer shall provide the City with calculations verifying storm drainage and water and sanitary sewer service design. 2 . The applicant shall provide a grading plan showing proposed contours over the site including all pavement areas. The grading plan shall also include erosion control. 3 . The applicant shall modify the parking arrangement adjacent to the bus loading area. 4 . The applicant shall provide the necessary easement area for ' the existing sanitary sewer crossing the northwest corner of the site. 5 . The applicant shall acquire and abide by all necessary agency permits ,including a MnDOT driveway access permit. ktm 1 1 I .. 1 1 CITY CF Ileotor 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 1i 1(612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739 1 MEMORANDUM TO: JoAnn Olsen, Senior Planner II FROM: Mark Littfin, Fire Marshal DATE: July 10 , 1990 II SUBJ: #90-1 P.U.D. St . Hubert ' s Expansion II 1 . The site plan meets the Fire Department approval . No further comments at this time. II 1 1 1 1 I 1 1 1 1 II 4 CITYOF 1 v CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 I (612) 937-1900 • FAX (612) 937-5739 IMEMORANDUM ITO: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner IFROM: Steve A. Kirchman, Building Official DATE: July 10 , 1990 ISUBJ: Planning Case 90-1 PUD (St . Hubert ' s Church) I 1 ) One publicly accessible handicap parking stall must be provided. I 2) An area separation wall must be provided if it is desirable to avoid sprinklering the existing building. I I I I I I I I I I CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 1 , 1990 Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Steve Emmings , Annette Ellson , Ladd Conrad , and Jim Wildermuth . Tim Erhart arrived after the first item . MEMBERS ABSENT: Brian Batzli and Joan Ahrens STAFF PRESENT: Paul Krauss , Planning Director ; Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner ; Sharmin Al-Jaff , Planner One; and Charles Folch, Asst . City Engineer . PUBLIC HEARING: I PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF A LIBRARY/ANNEX/RESEARCH CENTER, EXPANSION OF THE EDUCATION CENTER AND A RETIREMENT COMPLEX ON II PROPERTY ZONED IO, OFFICE AND INSTITUTIONAL DISTRICT AND LOCATED NORTH OF WEST 78TH STREET AND EAST OF GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD, ST. HUBERT CHURCH. Public Present: 1 Name Address Father Barry 7707 Great Plains Cheryl Guscyensie 7152 Ticonduoga Richard & Millie Lundahl 5509 Eden Prairie Road Judy Schmieg 220 West 77th Street Ursula Dimler 7203 Kiowa Circle Chuck & Betty Naber 409 Del Rio Drive Sharmin Al-Jaff and Paul Krauss presented the staff report . Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order . ' Richard Lundahl : Ladies and gentleman , my name is Richard Lundahl . I 'm the architect for St . Hubert 's and in attendance we also have Father Barry, ' the pastor and several other members of the church and we'll try to answer any questions you have. One thing I would like to say that there are not 20 classrooms . There are 6 per floor for a total of 12. The setbacks that" you just discussed apply only to the housing and right now the way we 've laid it out , the housing coincides with the setbacks of the existing houses there . The school is set back another 12 feet from that. Let 's see , what else? The materials of construction, we were going to try to continue the II breakoff block materials that we had used on the existing church which was done in 1976 rather than the red brick on the school . We feel that the school at some time or other , whether it gets done during this project or II another , deserves to be updated in the whole architecture of it. The side II facing the south and the side facing the city and of course you won't see the side facing the other side if we do this development because it will bell enveloped by the development and a court . The height of the buildings, none of them are as high as the existing church but in order to get 2 stories of course we do have to have a little height . The height was dictated probably by not just the fact that it 's 2 stories but by the fact II that we 're parking underneath and we raised the first floor up 4 feet in I . • Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 2 order to provide a ventilation space so that we wouldn 't have to ventilate ' it mechanically and so therefore it 's 4 feet higher than it would normally be in the housing area . And we 've tried to coincide the roof lines of the school and the housing development . The atrium , actually we consider it as ' only having one atrium area and that 's the area at the entrance to the church . You could possibly call it an atrium where you enter the school too but it really is just a large sky lit area which may have some greenhouse function in it and so we really don't call it an atrium but the ' new entrance to the church and that area is called an atrium. We think that it would blend well with what 's there as far as the church goes and I think it will blend well with what 's in Chanhassen now. So I 'd be happy to ' answer any questions architecturally and Father Barry would be happy to answer any questions conceptually about how this kind of a project fits together for him . ' Conrad: The current parking lot is adequate? Richard Lundahl : It 's adequate except on certain days . We would like to ' enlarge it too and it will be enlarged at a later date when properties become available to the north . All of those properties have been offered to the church and I think Father Barry can talk more to this than I can but ' we would increase the parking then but right at this point those are not in this project . ' Father Barry: There 's some reasons that parking . . . Richard Lundahl : Actually only one mass does the parking lot overflow , is that correct? ' Father Barry: Well it overflows on more than one mass on occasions but the Sunday morning popular mass at 9:30 . . .and the other time might be on a ' Saturday night if there 's a wedding or something over at the old church by the Colonial Church of Edina when they utilize our parking lot not knowing. . .they should park elsewhere and then our 's overflow. Or on Sunday ' mornings sometimes we have to address , when we have hospitality after one mass and hangovers from one mass into the next mass so then we have overflow problems there . So people staying to visit may create some overflow and if that is a problem , then we may have to stop hospitality ' which we surely don't want to . I have a few other things. . .that have come up in the presentation that need to be addressed. There are actually two garages that would be removed. We 're hoping to sell these for removal ' rather than tear them down because they're in pretty good condition . The houses too . I did a study on the parking stalls that would be needed by the first applicant for the retirement dwelling and out of those , there ' would be only 18 parking stalls needed . The others don't have automobiles or are contending to have one which they're going to get rid of . We have one of the couples for example who don't like to drive now and specifically want to be that close so they don 't have to drive. There are actually the ' possibility of 24 classrooms . You were right in your presentation. by saying double amount because on Wednesday nights we have smaller classes for our religious instruction . These are children that do not attend day ' school so we are partitioning each class with a divider that will allow each classroom to become two on Wednesday nights . That does not create a Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 3 parking problem because the parents drop off the children and then leave . I 'm wondering about the parking taking up that island space because that destroys some more grass which I 'm hoping and pleading that we can retain along with the trees . The trees , there is some error in identification of the trees and we will correct that when we stipulate for you how many trees' and the size and so forth but there is some error in the identification of the trees . As you saw the presentation here , the maples all along the front of the retirement dwelling will be retained . Those mature maples . I' don't think the construction will take those out as I see . They will be there plus some of the other trees . We are also a tree planting community . The stipulation to the architects when we first met with them was to desigil to save as many trees as possible because we hurt destroying trees . We 're nature people but we are planting trees all along . We 've planted 3 new maples in the cemetary . A spruce . I 've put up 3 pines in the back yard . A cedar . A double birch . Some sumac if you want to call them trees but we' are tree planting people and do plan to plant more trees . The housing is a question for people and that is a new development in Christian Community thought . That the elderly need in those years of their life to be in close' contact with the church and I 've worked with the elderly specifically and now visiting them of my community can find that they need to be close to church. We have any number who when it gets icy or stormy cannot make it to services and they live on that . That is a solice for their older years so we are not into providing blank elderly housing . We 're not getting into the elderly housing business . We 're getting into special type of provision for our elderly. Connected to the church on one end and to the children II because national studies have shown that where elderly are around children MI it revitalizes their lives . Does something and it does something for children also , national studies . There are 5 parishes in our diocese that I do have elderly housing units but they are not connected to the church.. And just yesterday and today I was attending a Upper Midwest gathering of priests in various parishes and I 'm being congratulated now for having the vision and the foresight to connect it to the church and those specifically' who did not say we wish we had done that so I 've become more well known now among Clergy even because of that specific project . It 's a vision . It's a new vision and new things are kind of hard for some people to accept but it 's a dream and it 's going to be extremely popular . I know it . I know it . Both from experience in the previous city I was which was Nashville , Tennessee and from the gut feeling that I have about this . Some of our I community think we are not going big enough with it . We had intended in the beginning going 3 floors but because of city ordinances and so forth we're going to start with 2 and hopefully, maybe expand in that other property if it becomes available but these are the visions that include our' hopes for the future . The school is necessary. Not because we have that many more students but because the students that we have now are cramped . Incredibly cramped. We are having tutoring going on in corridors and nooks and crannies . In the chair room. Next to the boiler room and that has to ' be corrected so that is essential . And the old space of classrooms will provide meeting space and office space that we vitally need right now also . We're terribly cramped . We just don't have the room. I think that 's all I' need to add to the presentation. Conrad: Thank you . Other comments? ' I . IIPlanning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 4 II Ursula Dimler : Hi . I 'm Ursula Dimler . I reside at 7203 Kiowa Circle . I am a member of St . Hubert 's parish and have been so for 20 years . My husband's family has been there almost since it began . I think his ancestors helped build the church . I just want to express one concern that II had and that was that , all my four children have gone to St . Hubert 's school . The enrollment is now up over 200 students and in this plan , we 've always had trouble with enough playground space and in this plan I see none or even less and I would like to have that addressed . IConrad: Thanks Ursula . I Father Barry: There is playground space . Sorry it's not on the plan . I asked Mr . Lundahl . . .to make sure there 's an area in the back . I 'm not sure whether it would be . . .to what we have now . I think with that . . .there is a proposal to put portable posts and so forth in the parking lot for I volleyball and so forth . The older children. . .if we get volleyball courts and also lines on the parking lot for volleyball , then the students can utilize their time playing volleyball . . . .and this is all playground . IIThat 's all playground area . It is now and it will be . Ursula Dimler : Could you show us where the relationship . . . IIFather Barry: Way away from it . Right there . Krauss: The apartments are over here so some of them will actually look I out , well I guess they 'd be looking out from here . The closest apartments are right about there . I Ursula Dimler : Is there a buffer zone? I 'm concerned that the noise might disturb the people in the apartments . II Krauss: Well , they 're around the corner and they are located right about 80 to 100 feet away . Father Barry: There is actually very little noise once school is out and I during school , it 's like an hour and a half . And in the evenings now , you know. . . There isn 't very much playground activity. . . Very few people use this and those that do , it 's not like a mob of kids out there . In Chicago I the city built 2 elderly housing units. . .around a football field specifically so that the elderly could watch kids play football . They put one up one year and 3 years later put another one up and those balconies were full of the elderly watching the kids play football . I personally Idon't think the noise from the. . . Ursula Dimler : I 've supervised playing out there and they can get rather II rowdy . Father Barry: Yeah, I suppose if somebody wants to take a nap in the Iafternoon . . . It 's going to be further away than it is now . . . Conrad: Okay , are there any other public comments? Anything? Any neighbors here? I • II Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 5 Father Barry: We had a number of neighbors wanting to come tonight and I II told them I didn't think they had to . They thought they should come and speak in favor of it . We were wondering were they needed and so forth. I said you know if you 've got other things you want to do , don 't bother . If it 's essential for neighbors to come and speak in favor , they 'll come at the next meeting . I don't know what the Planning Commission feels about that. Would you like that input from neighbors? • Conrad: They usually show if they 're irritated so it doesn 't take a whole I lot of prodding if they have a concern. If there 's controversy , it 's good to have both sides represented and therefore it would be good to have your I supporting neighbors in attendance but I don 't hear any antagonistic comments tonight . I think Ursula brought up a good point . The playground and proximity to the residential community in my mind is an issue , as is parking an issue and maybe I 'll get into that a little bit but apparently the neighbors and the notice was sent out and we sent the notice to those within 500 feet . Okay . Any other comments? Is there a motion to close the public hearing? ' Emmings moved, Wildermuth seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed . Conrad: Now we 'll get into a round where we get some Planning Commission comments or questions . Jim , start at your end. Wildermuth: I like the idea of carrying through the theme on the church I material through on the new construction . One thing I guess I would like to see is more underground parking . I think when the new construction that is now being contemplated, you have the opportunity to put in additional underground parking . Once that 's completed , that opportunity will be lost . From a city standpoint , is there going to be parking allowed on Frontier I Trail? Krauss: At this time we 're working with the City Engineer investigating the possibility of reconstructing the curb . Bumping it out like the parkway system in Minneapolis. Wildermuth: Or a denting into the boulevard so that . ' Krauss: Right . So we could provide additional parking area . Of course we don 't want to lose any trees in doing that so we 'll have to work on that I but we are looking into that . Wildermuth: The height of the new construction, how does that compare with the houses across the street on Frontier Trail? I guess I 'd direct that II question to the architect . Richard Lundahl : I 'm sure it 'd be higher . I 'm not sure if there 's going to be 2 story houses across the street . I don't recall so I can 't answer you but I 'm sure it 's higher . Wildermuth: By 5 feet? 10 feet? ' I . Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 6 Ap t Richard Lundahl : Are there 2 story? There are 2 story . Wildermuth: So it 'd be roughly comparable? Richard Lundahl : Plus there will be some mature trees . . .that are a lot higher than that . Wildermuth: Yes . I really like the idea of incorporating the elderly housing into the school and church setting . I think that probably along would qualify the project as a PUD . Other than that , I don 't really see that the project would qualify as a PUD but I think that in itself is certainly sufficient to do that . At this point , what is the percent impervious surface coverage? Al-Jaff: 72% . Wildermuth: 72% . What would our ordinance normally limit? ' Krauss: As of which district? The OI? Wildermuth: In the OI , right . ' Conrad: Probably 70 . ' Wildermuth: I thought it was 50 . Krauss: 65% . Wildermuth: Well that 's not too far out of the way I guess . From a concept standpoint , it looks like a good project . ' Conrad: Annette . Ellson: In general I think it 's wonderful . I had a question on something . We 're talking about a 15 foot wide landscape buffers proposed to the north to separate an existing house. Where is that? Could you help me? Al-Jaff: This is the . . .The church does not own this parcel yet . ' Father Barry: Could I address that please? ' Ellson: Sure . Father Barry: We are in very close contact with that family and I don't think that they would like a buffer of any height or anything . We 're open space people . Ellson: I was wondering if that neighbor was here , which it doesn't sound ' like any of the neighbors are here but if it 's something that the church plans on purchasing anyway and we normally like to protect the neighbors from development . I was wondering if this was even necessary . I didn 't know if you were 1 year away from taking it over and if this was necessary. • II Planning Commission Meeting 9 August 1 , 1990 - Page 7 ' Father Barry: Well in all frankness , had we pressured them they would hall looked for other housing . They own the property and I have . . .that when they sell , if they sell , we will have a first rights , almost total rights that we would purchase it . So they have no aversion , in fact they thought in this building we would move right up to their patio and we assured them , that we would not . In fact I have fussed at the architect about getting too close because I 'm a grass person too. I don't want all kinds of blacktop back there . That 's my backyard also . We sort of flow into one I another . So if there is some buffer required , I think I would prefer to talk to them and have them say what they would like because our yards are shared . ' Conrad: The buffer is grass? Father Barry: Oh yeah . There 's a good buffer there . ' Richard Lundahl : There 's 15 feet and we were planning on planting additional landscaping there but in the staff report they recommended that ' we cut it down so we would add another parking space to that . Krauss: If I could explain that . The parking there does not meet our requirements for manuevering room . You've got a couple of different flows " coming in over there . You 've got the 3 stalls at the end over here . Right here you 've got 2 stalls , one of which backs right out into the right-of- way which we don 't allow plus you 've got the cars entering the underground ' parking through here . We frankly just felt it was too tight to work comfortably and that the only place there is to fix it really is to shorten up on that buffer yard . We would still anticipate it being a buffer yard II because the church doesn't own it yet but I think we can work something out . Now in doing that we thought we could get another space in there . We want to eliminate that space that goes right onto Frontier but this is a detail I think we can work out . Ellson: Okay . That was a detail I was totally confused about . You 're not adding anything onto the church itself? I Richard Lundahl : Not to the sanctuary, no . The atrium. . .that is a church entrance which will be also a narthex . We've never had a narthex so it will allow for overflow from the sanctuary which is. . .and the narthex whict-' involves the removal of a library that 's there , will flow into the atrium but that 's generally just a looping around. . .area already existing. But it' is new coverage . Ellson: Yeah. I know that it can be real crowded. . .so I was thinking, what? You 're not going to add any more places for people to stand and it 's' growing . My first thought was is this enough? I think we need to do all the kinds of more things but I know that you do things in steps of course . Krauss: Well you know we were working with a plan that Father Barry ' brought to us but you people have touched on the parking issue . One of the things we were concerned about in the parking issue , we acknowledge there ' a problem there now on occasion . Cars park in the lot across the street which I believe the City has an ownership position in anyway and some of il ' II Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 8 I the other lots in the area which have . We certainly wanted to make sure I that whatever was done here didn 't make the problem any worse and that it accommodated it 's own need and I think this concept plan has accomplished that . Longer range , we 'd certainly like to work with the church to expand their parking if we could but we did set the guideline that we certainly Ididn 't want to exasperbate the problem . Ellson: I love the idea of the whole interconnecting and I think we I couldn 't ask for anything better there . I think it 's a wonderful way to keep the church , which has always been a cornerstone in the downtown and we 're doing a good service to limit the number of seniors . Granted I 'd like to think that the whole thing could be doubled or whatever but I think I that it looks good and I 'm usually the one up here saying now save the oak trees . I could tell from the plan that it was really looked at and taken seriously which is something that I really commend you on because it 's one I of my pet peeves and I always say , now have you really tried everything to save them and it looks like you are saving quite a few mature trees . So I like it . I think it's a good idea and again, I 'd like to have seen it II bigger and more but with the limited space I can see you 've done a really good job . Emmings: The living accommodations are for the elderly and I 'm wondering IIhow that 's being defined here . What are we talking about? Father Barry: Age 55 and we will have a panel that will determine when I they have to leave . It 's definitely not a nursing home . Anyone needing nursing care , there would be a single person would be advised to have . . . That again would be a community problem for a lot of people . IEmmings: Sure . So basically the way you 're looking at it , it 's for people who are capable of living independently but who are over 55? IIFather Barry: Right . Emmings: Has somebody looked at the plan in terms of it 's being accessible Ito wheelchairs and other people with special needs? Krauss: Certainly Commissioners Emmings, we've worked closely with our Fire Marshall and our building official . Now the plans , the detailed plans I haven 't been developed yet but there 's been a dialogue started between the architect and our people to accomplish all those things . IWildermuth: The 'detailed plan will incorporate an elevator I would guess? Richard Lundahl : Yes . IEmmings:, Well , this is a general concept plan at this point . I just want to make sure that somebody 's thinking about it and if that 's going on , I 'm sure we 'll look at it in more detail later . IIAl-.Taff: There is an elevator proposed from the lower ground parking up through it . I II I, Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 9 ' Emmings: I think this qualifies as a PUD to me . It feels right in that combines uses that we don't normally see combined in a kind of a creative and interesting and very positive way. I think that it provides a nice transition between what exists and the neighboring area . I think the ideal of , do you do any daycare? Father Barry: No . At this stage we didn't want to get into it . We have , the closest we come is nursery on Sunday . ' Emmings: Okay , but I suppose because you 're so crowded with the school , maybe there isn't room for daycare . ' Father Barry: If we had , moved out to some acreage , we would consider daycare because of the need . . .and it 's something that society needs and well surely would provide it but at the present time , I think we need to wait for further land and for the development and it 's difficult to establish a good daycare . Emmings: My son attended a daycare that was in a facility that housed the ' elderly and there was a lot of interaction between the two groups on site . It was obvious to me that both groups benefitted enormously from the , or II benefitted mutually . It was just a wonderful situation . He was happy . The kids were happy because they get a lot of attention . A lot of real positive attention and the folks that were living there enjoyed the interaction with kids . It clearly brighten their day and their time so I think this is a wonderful plan . I like it very Much . I 'm not particularl concerned about the parking because it seems to me that it 's primarily a problem for a very small duration of time . It seems to me that everybody 's' being sensitive about it and doing the best they can under the circumstances that are here . And while it may not be ideal , I think it 's alright . When you were talking about that other house that 's still on the property . I think it 's essential that you eventually acquire that property, if not other adjoining property the way you seem to be growing there . If those people are dedicated to the idea of selling that property to the church , it would certainly be a small step to enter into an agreement with " them so you have a right of first refusal on that property in writing because people can change their minds and a lot of funny things can happen . It would be good to get that in writing . Other than that , I don't have any, comments. Conrad: Is the play area smaller than it is today? Krauss: Yeah , it 's relocated slightly and it is smaller . Father Barry: Consider that the whole front parking lot which has a II basketball backboard and so forth , is also play area . This is a special play area for play construction . I don't know if you 've been down there so you know what we 're talking about . That structure there . The new site I 've asked Mr . Lundahl , will not accommodate the whole bit but it will accommodate quite a bit of it . And a lot of it , as it is there now , is not used . Some of that play structure is hardly ever used and some of it I II would like to see not be used . For example girls crawling up on a chain and I 'm thinking of them slipping and. . . I , 1 Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 10 i Conrad: It just seems to me it 's a small , out of the whole site and I do 1 like a lot of what I see here . I think there 's a lot of neat things incorporated but in general the impervious surface or the percent of lot coverage , even though your light green is higher than we 'd normally like . 1 We 'd like more green . We 'd like to preserve it . It really stands out to me that the play area is , and I hadn 't thought about that . How parking lot constitutes play area . That doesn't seem like a mix to me . Cars , kids can be and I know it 's used that way but for some reason that just seems 1 inconsistent . But it seems like a glaring deficiency but again, I guess nobody's bringing that up . Nobody is concerned . Well Ursula , you 're concerned . It just , as I compare the recreation sites of other schools , 1 this just seems like a real , it just seems like we 're really , we 're doing a lot of neat things in there but still , for the kids , there is not space . There 's not safe space for them or a lot of space . I 'm not an expert in 1 that area but staff , Paul you don 't seem to , that doesn 't bother you from a staff standpoint? Krauss: Well , I raised the issue in our discussions . I asked if State 1 licensing set a minimum requirement for green area and apparently they do not . They are maintaining a green area for those kinds of activities . In going past the site I frequently see the kids out playing in the parking lot during the day and the fact of the matter is , unless there 's services 1 going on , there 's nobody in that parking lot . 1 Conrad: But how does that mesh? Wildermuth : I think it 's a good mixed use for a parking lot . The grade school that I went to , I grew up was completely paved . 1 Conrad: Very definitely . I 'm not worried about the paved . I 'm just worrying about the fact that a car can go into that paved area . That 1 doesn 't mean it 's a recreation area there . Wildermuth: Maybe some provision has to be made there to close off part of that lot during the week or something . 1 Krauss: Right now actually the situation is somewhat more hazardous than it 's going to be in the future . Now you could take a more aggressive ' stance and put some sort of a barricade there so when the kids are there , the cars can 't come but right now the school buses have to line up in there and the parents have to drop off in there because they don't have the 1 advantage of having another drop off on TH 101 . So the new configuration removes some of that conflict but if it is a concern, we could be somewhat more aggressive in controlling access to the parking lot . 1 Father Barry: With that play area green, once they start playing on that it won 't be very long before all the grass and the green we have will be gone and then when it rains it all ends up in the parking lot anyhow . ' Conrad: Yeah , I 'm not suggesting that we need more grass for kids to kill . I just want to make sure there 's enough area for kids period. If we sanction this as a PUD , it 's a chance to look at the entire site to make sure that it all works and make sure that works for senior citizens even 11 Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 11 though I 'm not sure that the play area is perfect right next to the senior ' citizens area but it may be okay . But I just have a real negative feeling in terms of the play area and how we 've designed it . I guess I 'd like a more aggressive approach in terms of how we utilize . I think it 's a good use of a parking lot to use it for kids . The church 's not in session weekdays . Good time to use the parking lot for kids . Yet on the other hand, I want to have a sense that there 's , it 's not a parking lot on those days and I don 't know what that means . I don 't know how we do that . The II other question Paul . Have we had any complaints from the neighbors? Parking wise on Sunday? Anything? Have you looked at any of the logs that may register complaints? Krauss: No I haven 't . I 'm not aware of any complaints but I didn 't try to delve into it that far either . We circulate these things in house and typically if there 's a problem , Public Safety will tell us . Conrad: So Sunday is just not an issue day with the neighbors? It just nothing . 1 Krauss: I don 't want to dismiss it as a problem because clearly they 're parking all over the place but it seems to be one that the community 's become alert to since it 's been going on for so long . Conrad: How do you know that the parking is acceptable for the senior citizen , for the new underground ramp? What ratio? What rules did you use' to say , hey it 's okay? Krauss: Well I 've worked on a number of senior citizen projects and II they 're widely varied and on this one we 've been talking to Father Barry and he knows who he 's got moving in there but you look at some things . The guidelines are you have to be over 55 . Now obviously 55 is not elderly all' the time and many people might have 2 cars . When you look at the mix of the apartments . The apartments are relatively small for the most part . A lot of them are single bedroom units . Those are not the kind of things that somebody who just wants to be free from the worries of mowing their II lawn moves into. They move into a larger townhouse or condominium type situation so the design of the building helps to enforce the parking limitation . You typically, when you move up from active elderly to somewhat less active you tpically go for a 1 to 1 ratio. Many of the buildings I know have been designed like that . If you look at some of the buildings in Richfield or Edina where you can walk to a lot of things , they have 1 to 1 ratios and parking lots are not too often full because they can take buses . That doesn't necessarily apply here except that this is in the downtown Chanhassen. People can walk and the church itself by means of this unique plan is going to provide for a lot of the day to day activities" for these people that they might otherwise drive to. So it 's really a subjective call is what it boils down to . The 1 to 1 ratio is one that I 've worked with. It works. ' Conrad: You say it's best judgment at this time that you think is acceptable . What do we do, what 's the City policy in terms of church visitors parking in city property across the street? Do we need to look all that? Is that , you know that seems like an easy solution for parking, I . Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 12 especially on Sunday if we have P Y Y overflow problems but what is our policy? ' Krauss: Well it 's public parking to the extent that it 's under public ownership and can be used. I could be wrong , it predates my time with the City but that all used to be a private parking lot and was used during services anyway . We became involved with the north side improvements and rebuilt the whole thing and took a more aggressive posture . We put in a parking lot south of the old church off of TH 101 in there . Those lots ' were available to whomever needs to use it whenever they need to use it . Conrad: So the City is comfortable that the church can use it? Wildermuth: Probably a few spots are reserved for Kenny 's . Krauss: Well , you want to be careful . You don 't want to have 4 or 5 operations determining that they 're going to use that space at the same time . But since church services are generally off peak . Kenny 's would be an example of one where there might be a conflict but of course that 's over ' on the west side and then you have access to the parking that 's all behind there . All you have to do is park behind Medical Arts so the situation , while not ideal is certainly getting better , tremendously better I think over the last 12 months . Wildermuth: I still would like to see the underground parking expanded. I mean now 's the time to do it . Now when the opportunity is . ' Ellson: How much expanded? ' Wildermuth: Well as much as possible under the new construction . Ellson: To give you what? 5 , 10 more? Wildermuth: According to the plan it looks as though the underground parking could almost be doubled . You 've got the school right? Richard Lundahl : Underneath the housing , unless you went underneath the school . Conrad: Yeah , I think that 's it . Emmings: And Ladd you know maybe one way to address the fear that the residents parking is going to be a problem would be to say that all ' residents must park beneath the , in the underground garage . Put a condition on it like that and then that way , if some people have 2 cars and some people have no cars , it would still work out but leave it to them to ' handle it internally with the condition that all resident parking be underground . Krauss: I think that would be very appropriate since there really is very ' little latitude in visitor parking . They need to have access to all the outdoor stalls that are available . I Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 13 Wildermuth: The footprint of the underground parking lot really represent" what? Is that all the new construction is going to be? Krauss: No . What it represents is the outside limits of the apartment which sits over it . The new construction goes beyond that . Wildermuth: If the new construction goes beyond that , then there would be enough area to expand the underground parking right? Krauss: What you 've got over here is , Frontier runs out here and TH 101 i over there . The new construction comes up to something like that . This portion here being school . This is the outside limit of the apartment so you 've got this space over here where theoretically . Wildermuth: It seems like it would make some sense . ' Krauss: I 'd really leave that up to the architect . From a layout standpoint , it seems to be a continuance of the same corridor . Floor elevations might be a problem . Richard Lundahl : You 'd have to raise the floor of the school . ' Father Barry: Assessing the people that are looking to utilize it , I think you 'll get a lot of stalls empty. There aren 't any of them that have 2 cars now that I know of . Wildermuth: I 'm not so much thinking of the elderly housing . What I 'm II thinking about really is maybe your school staff . People like that could park down there during the week rather than using . Father Barry: We have that huge parking lot and they use just that one endll and we don 't have that large of a staff for the school . We have probably a dozen cars in there at the most . That 's why the parking lot can be used as a playground because there 's no other cars during the day. ' Conrad: okay so Paul , City staff is real comfortable that the , I 'm not even talking necessarily about the apartment parking. I think I 'm satisfied with Paul 's feeling in terms of the use that will have adequate parking for those that move in . I think with Steve 's suggestion that will control that . As we look at this as a PUD , I 'm trying to get my arms around the whole site and that 's where I go back to the parking lot but basically I 'm hearing a couple things . One , we 're not getting any complaints from neighbors . Two, that if we do have overflow parking problems on Sunday at 9:30 , that is handled by city lots. We don 't have a problem to deal with. That 's what I 'm hearing . Krauss: Basically that's true but I don't want to overstate the case . There is a parking shortfall but the situation seems to be one that 's being' dealt with . Conrad: But the City is comfortable we can make up for that shortfall with other sites in the neighborhood? II Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 14 1 Krauss: Yeah , we 're certainly improving that situation , yes . You know I can 't tell you that there is no parking prpblem . That every car is parked where it should be because I don 't know that to be the case but it 's getting better than it was and this proposal is certainly not making it any ' worse . Conrad: Okay , you 've relieved my anxiety Paul . Then I 'm stuck with the last issue and that goes back to playground and I think I 'd like to have , ' when the applicant , when the church comes in to the City Council , I 'd really like them to present something more than what I 've seen tonight in terms of helping them understand the playground needs and the recreation ' needs for the children that are going to school . Maybe that 's , in my mind it may be some creative way of using that parking lot and landscaping the parking lot with , maybe taking a few stalls away but cording off a portion with , I hate to say it , a berm or something but at least on the weekdays there 's a way to keep cars out of the playground area in the parking lot . On weekends there 's a way to shoot those cars through so that they accommodate the church goers but anyway , I guess my recommendation is we ' take another look at how we handle the recreation needs of the kids and any creative use we can . If you can do that , you 'd certainly have my support on this as a PUD and this as a sketch plan or whatever we 're calling the plan to present to City Council . Any other comments? Is there a motion? Emmings: Sure . I 'll move that the expansion of St . Hubert 's church , we recommend approval for it to be given PUD concept plan approval subject to the conditions set forth in the staff report . Ellson: I 'll second it . Conrad: Discussion . ' Emmings moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend to approve the PUD Concept Plan for the expansion of St. Hubert's Church subject to the following conditions: ' 1 . Revise parking and access plans as requested . 2. Provide final landscaping and tree preservation plans responding to issues that have been raised . 3. Provide final engineering plans including utility, grading and storm ' drainage data: a . The applicant 's engineer shall provide the City with calculations verifying storm drainage and water and sanitary sewer service ' design . b . The applicant shall provide a grading plan showing proposed contours over the stie including all pavement areas . The grading plan shall also include erosion control . c . The applicant shall modify the parking arrangement adjacent to the bus loading area . • I Planning Commission Meeting August 1 , 1990 - Page 15 d. The applicant shall provide the necessary easement area for the existing sanitary sewer crossing the northwest corner of the site . e . The applicant shall acquire and abide by all necessary agency permits , including a MnDot driveway access permit . 4 . Submit a concurrent subdivision application to combine underlying lots " into a single tax parcel . All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. ' ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO AMEND SECTION 20-263 OF THE RECREATIONAL BEACHLOT ORDINANCE TO ALLOW FOR PORTABLE CHEMICAL TOILETS ON RECREATIONAL II BEACHLOTS, MINNEWASHTA CREEK HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION. (*ITEM DELETED* ) Conrad: I should have done this before as an adminstrative matter . The II second item on the agenda tonight , which is a zoning ordinance amendment to amend the Recreational Beachlot for portable chemical toilets , that has been deleted from the agenda as has a site plan review for the retail mall II in downtown Chanhassen . Those two , if anybody 's here for those two public hearings or those discussions , those have been deleted from the agenda . Emmings: Ladd , could I ask why that second item was deleted . Just out of II curiousity . Krauss: It 's being deleted because we concluded that it should be 1 processed as a variance . In the ordinance right now it says no chemical toilets as a standard for recreational beachlots so as a standard in the ordinance it can be varied or the request can be made that it be varied so 1 the Board of Adjustments will hear that . • Emmings: See , I don 't like that . I really am opposed to that . Krauss: Well , we in fact are opposed to it as well but that adminstratively is the way we believe it should be handled. Emmings: Yeah , but I 'm opposed to it for a whole different reason. I think , originally they came in and asked for a variance . Then it was switched to a zoning ordinance amendment and I liked that because it seems II to me that by a zoning ordinance amendment , if there 's any sentiment to allow these things at all , we 've got a chance to put some conditions on them . I don 't want to see them as variances and I don 't know, who decides whether it should be processed as a variance or as a zoning ordinance amendment? Wildermuth: How are you going to deny it or on what basis are you going toll accept it as a variance? Olsen: It 's a tough one . I started talking to those people last year and II explained that if they went through the variance process it would most likely be denied. Then they were going to pursue it and what I had Sharmin