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CC Minutes 1999 01 25CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 2S, 1999 Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6~30 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Senn, Councilwoman Jansen, Councilman Engel, and Councilman Labatt STAFF PRESENT: Anita Benson, City Engineer, Cindy Kirchoff, Planner I, Todd Gerhardt, Acting City Manager and Joel Jamnik, City Attorney's Office PUBLIC PRESENT: Name Address Mona J. Kerber Stephanie Unze Sherry Ayotte Kenneth A. & Ann Bloch Patsy Bernhjelm Leah Hawke Marcia & John Hull Matthew Burton 500 Chan View 1080 Lyman Court Cascade Pass 7015 Dakota Avenue 9380 Kiowa Trail 7444 Moccasin 1421 Lake Susan Hills Drive 8290 Marsh Drive APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve the agenda with the following addition under Administrative Presentations: Eastern Carver County Collaborative by the Acting City Manager. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Mayor Mancino: Next is public announcements. I have three. Number one is that Mr. Tinkleberg, the new Commissioner of Transportation for the State will be at the Chanhassen Rec Center on 212 at 8:00 in the morning for all those that are interested. The other two public announcements are that next Monday night, a week from tonight, the City Council will hold a work session in these city council chambers and it will start at 5:00. We will have review of the 1999 budget in detail and discuss reserve accounts. And then at 6:30 we will have a work session on reorganization issues. So that everyone is aware of that. Now moving on to the consent agenda. All items listed under the consent agenda. Excuse me, there is a question by a council member at where the work session was going to be held on February 1st. We were going to try and get it held at the Rec Center but the Rec Center is full so it will be held here at the City Council chambers. Going forward onto the consent agenda. CONSENT AGENDA: Mayor Mancino: Is there a council member that would like a item pulled from the agenda? Councilman Senn: I would like (j), Minutes of December 28th held until the budget work session is complete. City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Okay, so we are pulling 10). City Council Minutes dated December 28, 1998. Is there anyone here tonight that would like an item under the consent agenda pulled? Come forward please. State your name. Leah Hawke: Leah Hawke, 7444 Moccasin Trail and the item, I don't necessarily want it pulled. I just believe that it warrants discussion from people here tonight and that is approving amendments to the Council's Rules of Procedure. I just personally have some comments and I think there may be others in the room that have some comments on how these are handled and so I think it would be appropriate to give people the opportunity to speak. Mayor Mancino: That's fine. We will pull that item and discuss it at the end of the consent agenda. Then may I have a motion for the consent agenda please. Councilman Engel moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: Springfield 5th Addition, Lundgren Brothers construction: 1) Final Plat Approval. 2) Approve PUD/Development Contract and Construction Plans & Specifications, Project #99-3. Approve Plans and Specifications; Authorize Advertising for Bids for Wellhouse No. 8, Project 97- 4A. c. Resolution #99-02: Approve Change Order No. 1 for Well No. 8, Project No. 97-4. d. Authorize Preparation of Pavement Management Study, Project 99-4. Resolution #99-03: Accept Street & Storm Drainage Improvements in Walnut Grove, Project 97- 13. g. Resolution #99-04: Establish 1999 Park & Trail Dedication Fees. h. Approval of 1998 Bike Trail Project Easement. i. Approval of Bills. City Council Minutes dated January 11, 1999 Planning Commission Minutes dated January 6, 1999 Park & Recreation Commission Minutes dated December 15, 1998 Approve City Code Amendment to Allow Upright Monuments (Headstones) in the Chanhassen Pioneer Cemetery; First Reading. All voted in favor and the motion carried. I(L) APPROVE AMENDMENT TO THE COUNCIL RULES OF PROCEDURE. City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Now as it pertains to 1 (1). Approve Amendment to the Council Rules of Procedure. Would you like to come up and comment, you may. Leah Hawke: Leah Hawke, 7444 Moccasin Trail. Actually my comments are more questions. The first thing is the 5:00 or 5:30 time that these meetings are held is a problem for a lot of people to get to. People that want to be involved and understand what's going on. And I would just ask that the Council consider moving the time to something that more people who work the 8:00 to 5:00 shift can attend. And the second thing is, I'm glad we're getting some clarification on these meetings because quite frankly they've baffled me since I first got involved late April-May. I have questions regarding how Minutes were taken. Whether or not legally we should be video taping those meetings. I also, I question quite frankly why we have to have those meetings and have them with as much frequency as we do. I just sat through one. I believe anything that was said and discussed in that meeting should be a matter of public record and should and could be discussed in a full council meeting. So my points are three. Number one, they're held at a time that makes it difficult for a lot of people to attend. Number two, we don't get full minutes. When we read them they're summary minutes and if this is a council meeting it's my understanding you need to videotape or you need to take full minutes. And thirdly, again. Quite frankly I question how often these meetings are held and the necessity. I think anything that's said at these meetings should go on the record at 6:30. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Joel, what about council work sessions as far as legally? Joel Jamnik: Mayor, they're certainly legal meetings. Properly noticed. Whether you have them or not is a matter for your policy and procedure. Whatever the council would determine is the best way to effectuate city business would be allowable. So you can continue to have them when you do. You could change them. You have full authority to do whatever you want with them. The only requirement being that they must be publicly noticed and publicly held unless there's an authorization to close that meeting, just like any other city council meeting. Mayor Mancino: Okay. So they do not need to be videotaped, etc.? Joel Jamnik: No. In fact there's no requirement for videotaping, audio taping or cable cast of any public meeting. The only requirement is that official minutes be kept. Reviewed and approved by the council and those are the only requirements. Mayor Mancino: Let's have some more discussion from council on this. Obviously when the last, as far as having work sessions, are acted upon and council members asked for them and so does staff members ask for them. So they're a request both of different council members and for staff and we have used them in the past to number one, work on our strategic plan, which we did last summer. We used that for work sessions. We have also used work sessions for budget presentations. We have very formally in newsletters, etc., asked for the residents and businesses to come and attend the work sessions. Any work sessions they would like to. I personally like the idea of putting the itemizing the agenda of the work sessions in the paper. I think that that's a great way to do it. But there are a lot of discussion items that we do have during work sessions so let's hear some comments from council members. Councilwoman Jansen: I guess in regards to the comment on tonight's issues that were covered in the work session. It was of course the consent agenda items and one of the things that's recommended as far as how to speed up a council meeting, be it out of respect for staff and their hours or the public. If it's just an administrative type of issues, it's suggested that you put those on a consent agenda so we're doing it to try to expedite the meeting but if there are comments, we're given that opportunity to be able to at least City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 address them beforehand or pull them and go through some of those things that otherwise would just drone out the meeting if you would. It's not that it's you know something that we're trying to keep from the public. And to the timing issue, that's where we added to the whole procedures that if the public would like to address one of the items that's on the work session agenda, you could call to City Hall and we'll certainly shuffle it amongst the different items that are on the agenda and try to make it later so that people can attend and actually hear the conversation. Mayor Mancino: You know the other items that we've had on work sessions that have been very, very helpful and I think very, very helpful for the people who have been concerned about them. We had a whole work session on 212 so that those people that could come and listen to MnDOT do a presentation and a work session on TH 101. And again we would be going for an hour or two. We would be making a city council meeting sometimes so long that we would be deciding things in the wee hours and it's not always the best time to do it but, hear some more discussion. Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: I don't really have a whole lot new to add to that. I mean other than yeah, when we were doing it the other way. When we were doing it the other way starting at the later time with the, in fact I think we started at 7:30 1 think time frame with a 6:30, still with a 7:30 start. Often times we would end up going to midnight or after because we got a great deal of complaints about people having to sit around that long and meetings going that late and how it disrupted schedules that way and stuff so I think what we settled on was a pretty good compromise. And again the early time is a work session. Primarily question and clarification, although all that's effectively rehash or open for rehash when we get to the 6:30 regular meeting time anyway. Councilman Engel: Yeah, probably just rehashing what you heard. From my perspective I've seen this come full circle now. I've only been here two years and the complaint two years ago was exactly the opposite of yours Leah and that was, you're sitting out there until midnight with us. Your brain's not working too good. You're tired. You want to go home. You've got to work the next day and can't we start this earlier. And then it was, can't we be a little more efficient in the meeting and the way we found to be more efficient was come in at 5:30. Review the agenda as a council. We made no decisions. We just got briefed by staff quickly so that we didn't have to sit here and do it in front of you. And certainly the discussion could come back and we'd have it again but we could it much more quickly because we didn't need all the background information from scratch. We already had it. So the meetings became much more efficient. We haven't had a midnight meeting, well we've had a couple but we used to have a lot when I was first here. A lot. Tuesdays were tough to get out of bed so they are more efficient, and especially for the people attending. Some would wait late at night to get their one item. It was tough for them so. Mayor Mancino: If you could wait until the last council person. Just one second. Councilman Engel: The 5:30 start is just contiguous to the 6:30 slot and we made it so that people could get off at 5:00. Come into the meeting and as Linda said, if you want it moved back, all you've got to do is call. We will move an item back to suit you so they're open. We're certainly not trying to do anything there we don't want someone to see because... Mayor Mancino: It also helps staff. Councilman Engel: It's a long day for staff too. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Labatt. City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Councilman Labatt: I can sympathize with the difficulty in leaving downtown Minneapolis at 5:00 and getting out here on a weather related afternoon but I also like the schedule. I mean consisting of 5:30 for work sessions. I can go back and forth. With the question that comes to me now is the fact that do we need to keep minutes of work session meetings that are even held in the off week when there's not a general meeting. And that's something maybe council can address and determine if we need to keep verbatim minutes. But I agree with everybody else in what is in here. I like the fact that an agenda is going to be published in the paper on the work sessions. Mayor Mancino: Todd why don't, if you don't mind, if you can get back to us on what we would need to do minutes, etc. Todd Gerhardt: Well Joel just said you have to have minutes of your work sessions. It's under state statute. But it does not need to be verbatim. It can be summary minutes of what staff felt the discussions were with council approval of those. So you know it's up to the council. If you want verbatim minutes, we can tape them and have Nann type them. Or if you want summary minutes, you know I will prepare those. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Leah? Leah Hawke: Okay, I'm out of luck with the time. I figured that one out. But back to the minutes issues. You know I looked at the work session minutes for a couple different meetings. One was an hour and a half. One was 10 minutes. The length of the minutes were the same and I cannot believe that there wasn't anything discussed to constitute bigger minutes. And for people who maybe can't make 5:30, if you would at least consider taking full minutes of the meeting so people can read it through and get an understanding of where each city council member is coming from on a particular issue. I think that would be very helpful. And it doesn't leave us guessing as to what was discussed. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Patsy Bernhjelm: Patsy Bernhjelm, 9380 Kiowa Trail and I would like to say thank you for being more open about the work sessions. I really appreciate that. I have a real vested interest as a citizen so thank you very much. The agendas being published I think is great. That was a question that I had was is it required or not so I think that that's wonderful. Mayor Mancino: Patsy, we were never closed with them just so you know. That we had hoped to, in newsletter articles, etc., to make them very open and whoever wanted to come could come. Patsy Bernhjelm: I guess the question then, if this is appropriate to ask is who gets the newsletter then? Who's that for? Mayor Mancino: Everybody gets the newsletter. Every resident of Chanhassen. Patsy Bernhjelm: Okay, so it's not something separate that, maybe I'm just missing. Mayor Mancino: No, I'm just saying in very general terms, part of my letter has been you know come to our work sessions. They're you know before every meeting and they're on every Monday night etc. Patsy Bernhjelm: Right. Okay, I thought you were speaking of a specific document that, excuse me. City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: No. No. Patsy Bernhjelm: The other, one of the other issues I have is, there are philosophical differences I believe that I think Leah and I share and perhaps the council has a different way of looking at it. My experiences with city council government is that anything that goes on takes place at the city council meeting and yes they do go to midnight. My husband sits there many times till 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning at Edina City Council meetings so I'm very well aware of that and as a former member of that city I know that that happens. I think it's a philosophical difference as I say is that yes, it is hard to get up the next day but you also are giving your time and you chose to be elected so it's a philosophy difference. I also would hope that we could have verbatim minutes for the work sessions. I think there are some important issues that are brought up and I would like to go on record as saying that I would personally do whatever I could do to help get those verbatim minutes in place because I think there's a lot of things. It's been very interesting to me tonight and at the other work session that I attended in issues that were raised and how things were handled. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Appreciate it. May I have a motion please on 1(1). Councilman Senn: I move approval of 1(1). Mayor Mancino: Is there a second? Councilman Labatt: I'll second it. Resolution #99-05: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Labatt seconded to approve Amendment to the Council Rules of Procedure. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Larry Klein: I'm Larry Klein. I live down there on 9170 Great Plains Boulevard and what I'm just wondering what Springfield Addition, what they intend to do with that big mountain of dirt they piled up right across from my house. They've got it up there at, I know that it was up over 50 feet high and it sat in there. It's blocked our view. We used to be able from our living room window see clear across into Bear Path. We can't see nothing. And I just wonder what they intend to do there. IfLundgren's has come up with a plan or if the council has looked into this thing. Then I can't see what they intend to do with it. Mayor Mancino: Just one minute Mr. Klein. I don't know but let me ask Anita, do you have an idea of what's going to be done with that and when? Or if you would like to call Mr. Klein and let him know. Anita Benson: I can call Mr. Klein and give him further detail but for now we have asked for an as-built survey showing that, because we do suspect the berm was built higher than originally approved and staff is also requiring an extensive landscaping plan with the Springfield 5th Addition but we are going back and requiring them to prove to us that it was built as approved. And any additional fill beyond what was approved will be removed. Larry Klein: That's what I, because this is not just a berm. Either they're, or they're wasting one heck of a slug of land there because there's the south end, they're way, way away from the road. This is what. City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Are there erosion problems? Larry Klein: Well it could be. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Mr. Klein, why don't you please give Anita your telephone number and she will give you a call and follow up with you and let you know. Thank you. Anyone else? Patsy Bernhjelm: Still Patsy Bernhjelm, 9380 Kiowa Trail. I do have one other question. One of the things that was discussed in the work session was the MIS task force and I would like to know a little more information about that. Is it something that's going to be external or internal? Is it something that the public would be, are you looking for you know citizens to be on it? Is it something that's just going to be internal? I'd like a little clarification on that if I could. Mayor Mancino: I can't give you any more clarification. We will be bringing that up. It will be on a council agenda. Patsy Bernhjelm: Okay. It was my understanding that it had been, Councilman Senn talked about it being discussed at the budget time and I thought that that had been. Mayor Mancino: But the task force itself has not been approved. But it would be the general public I'm fairly sure as I'm sitting here answering it for you. Patsy Bernhjelm: Okay. Mayor Mancino: But we'll put it on an agenda item. Anyone else? REQUEST FOR AN AMENDMENT TO THE SITE PLAN 96-4 FOR HI-WAY 5 CENTER FOR THE INSTALLATION OF A WALL SIGN, 468 WEST 79TI~ STREET, GREAT PANDA RESTAURANT. Cindy Kirchoff: Thank you. This item was reviewed at the Planning Commission meeting that was held on January 6th. While the request was denied by the Planning Commission, or recommended denial by the Planning Commission. The Planning Commission felt that this was an issue between the owner of the building and the applicant. Staff believes that the applicant does have an opportunity for visibility with the existing western elevation wall sign and the existing pylon sign. Therefore we do recommend denial of the amendment request. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Any questions for staff at this time? Is the applicant here and would you like to address the City Council please? Roman Roos: My name is Roman Roos. I am the developer of that project. Standing in for the Giant Panda. Apparently at the Planning Commission it was requested, or they did formally request to have a second sign put on the very southwest end of the complex. Very similar to what Mike Ramsey did when he put the sign on 78th Street. This sign, I think you probably saw a picture of the sign. I'm assuming you have at the. Mayor Mancino: It's up right now, on the west side? City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Roman Roos: That's very nice. Mayor Mancino: I think Cindy's showing you where to put it. Roman Roos: It would be on the south. Councilman Engel: There's a camera right above you. Mayor Mancino: We're very high tech. Roman Roos: A lot of changes since I was sitting behind that desk. The sign is again very similar to the sign that's on the west side of the building. And again very similar to the sign that Mike put on the north end of the building. The history of the project basically as I had is a primary tenant in that end cap. A company called Chesapeake Bagel. They went through the complete process of making application to the city for building permit and went through and actually built out the space for their intended use. At that time they did have two signs. I was not part of that discussion as to was it approved by staff or not, I don't know. But I guess at this point as far as the landlord goes, as far as I go as a developer, I have no real problems with that sign. It is relatively small in regards to the signs throughout the Chanhassen downtown area. There was when we went through the PUD, and when I made application for this building, no signage to be on the east side of the building. And so we've maintained that and it's going to stay that same direction. That's the owner's request also. From the standpoint of the original approval, it will require a variance and I guess that's the reason for us being here this evening. I'm here to answer any questions. I did shoot a picture this evening at dusk of the original sign on the front as well as the signage on the balance of the building. And that is available if you'd like to take a look at it. I'm not sure why the Planning Commission denied this request from a variance point of view. Maybe Cindy can enlighten me on that. Mayor Mancino: Cindy. Cindy Kirchoff: The Planning Commission did feel that when the site plan was done for the building, that adequate time was spend discussing the signage and didn't feel that there was a hardship that was present in order for them to approve the amendment to allow for three elevations of signage. Mayor Mancino: When your development came through the Planning Commission, at that time when it comes through the Planning Commission, you also presented a signage plan which all the developments do. And according to our sign ordinance, and to make sure that we are consistent and fair to all development, you can have signage on two streets and that's part of our ordinance. Roman Roos: That's correct. Mayor Mancino: And you asked at that point, when you came in front of the Planning Commission that instead of putting it on two streets, that you be able to put it on, you picked the north side on West 79th Street and on the western elevation which is a parking lot and asked if you could do that because you already, you were going to put a pylon sign on Highway 5. So that is what the Planning Commission, back when you developed the site, agreed to and again is in compliance with our signage ordinance. Is that correct? Cindy Kirchoff: That is correct. City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Roman Roos: Going also way back to that point in time, there's not a lot of sites in the city of Chanhassen that have street frontage on both ends of the building. I understand what you're saying and I have developed several other buildings so I'm well aware of that. From the standpoint of this site, with Highway 5 being a major thoroughfare and because this is a restaurant and not a typical smaller retail, visibility is very, very important. I know the position exactly but I would say in this particular case, since we have streets on both sides, it's a reasonable request for a variance. Now in regards to hardship I can't say it is a hardship but advertising is a very, very important factor in the restaurant business. Beyond that, the only thing I would say from the standpoint of the tenant. Having the dual sides, or the dual streets, it's a reasonable request that they be allowed to be put that second sign up. Again I cannot go back in history because I don't know what happened with Chesapeake Bagel but they did have a second sign. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Mayor Mancino: And you can always come back and ask for another one. That is fine. That is just fine. Roman Roos: But as a representative of the owner I would like to go ahead and ask for your recommendation of approval of this application. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Mr. Roos, are you speaking for your, would you like to get up? Thank you. Comments from council. Councilman Labatt. Councilman Labatt: The only question I have is, getting back to Chesapeake. Was there a variance granted for them to put a sign there? Or was it, they were.., first or before Ramsey got their sign on the north side? Cindy Kirchoff: What happened was they installed the signs prior to getting a sign permit. And so they took the initiative to put the sign up on Highway 5 when it was not permitted. So they didn't receive permission to put up, the sign was not permitted by staff. They put it up without permission. You need a sign permit prior to installation of the sign and they didn't have one. Councilman Labatt: Chesapeake didn't have one? Cindy Kirchoff: That's correct. Councilman Labatt: Okay. Go ahead. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: What's the difference between this and Mike Ramsey's place? Talk a little bit about that .... how many signs do we have at each end, and each business.., and why are these two different? Cindy Kirchoff: The site plan says you can only have two elevations of signage and Mike Ramsey occupies the northern elevation and the western elevation is a parking lot so. The ordinance permits signage on street frontage only so they would have signage on West 79th and Highway 5. However, they chose to remove the signage on Highway 5 and place that signage on the western elevation to face the parking lot. Councilman Engel: On Ramsey? City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: No, for everyone. Cindy Kirchoff: For everyone. For the whole building. They only have two elevations of signage. Councilman Engel: Okay, so they all only have two. Cindy Kirchoff: The building only has two. Councilman Engel: ... somehow that it's being compared to Mike Ramsey and that there's some inequities. That doesn't seem to be the case. Cindy Kirchoff: No. The building itself is entitled to two elevations. Entitled to two elevations of signage and Mike Ramsey's Gold Medal Sports occupies, has two wall signs because their signage was placed up first. Todd Gerhardt: To answer that. I mean if there's room the Great Panda could go on the West 78th Street next to Mike Ramsey's sign. Is there room? I mean if they wanted to be on another side of the building, they could go next to Mike Ramsey's on the north side of the building? Cindy Kirchoff: I believe that the wall sign is the maximum allowed signage that can be placed on that elevation. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: No questions. Mayor Mancino: Councilwoman Jansen. Councilwoman Jansen: Just going back to what Mr. Gerhardt just said. Is that then the owner of the building's situation in that if he knew what the allotted sign footage was and allowed one tenant to take that. Todd Gerhardt: Or reduce his. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. I don't have any questions. Mayor Mancino: Mr. Roos. Roman Roos: I'd like to just make one final comment. I think it's very, very important that in this issue that this site has two streets abutting the property. Very unusual. You don't find sites like that in Chanhassen. And I understand that if it had a single street on it, I can understand the logic but I think we have a situation there that is not normal and I would ask for your consideration on that basis. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. How about a motion? Any other comments? Councilman Senn: I have a question Mayor. Where do we have any, where do we have buildings with signage on more than... 10 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Cindy Kirchoff: You know I can't think of any. Mayor Mancino: I'm trying to think of Boston Market. I'm thinking down there where you have a lot of street frontages. Byerly's. Councilman Labatt: What about Market Square? The bagel shop there. Councilman Senn: But the bagel place is a separate building from the other building. And the main building only has signage on two sides. Mayor Mancino: So what we've kept consistent is the two signage and what we have allowed variances, whether it's street frontage or not as it were. Is that not correct? Councilman Senn: No, Steve has a good point though because you are right. There is signage on three sides of Market Square. On the north side, the south side and the east side. Mayor Mancino: Where on the east side? On the Spa Atrium? Councilman Senn: Well all the buildings face the east. Mayor Mancino: I mean okay. On the east. Then where on the north? Councilman Senn: On the north side you've got Subway. Mayor Mancino: And do they have one, but they don't have one on the south end. Councilman Senn: On the south you've got signs for the food place and for the hardware store don't you? Or at least Festival I think on the back side, aren't they? Mayor Mancino: Cindy? Cindy Kirchoff: I can answer that. When that particular development went in, they did permit signage on all those elevations. Mayor Mancino: Was it also before we had our sign ordinance? Cindy Kirchoff: Possibly. I don't recall the year but they were entitled to signage on the north, the south and the west elevations of that whole Market Square. Mayor Mancino: Boy, I sat on that sign ordinance and I would say it came in afterwards. I mean whether that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that we got together with the Chamber and really sat down and worked out a sign ordinance back in the early 90's to start making it consistent. Because that's what the Council asked us to do. They said you know we're getting sign requests all over and we're starting, so as a city we would like to have some sort of a policy. Some sort of an ordinance which makes it fair and clear for development to happen in the city. And that's why we spent 3 or 4 months working with the Chamber to get somewhere. And I think it was, ifI recall, some of the impetus was Market Square and again some of the development starts, so. 11 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Councilman Labatt: What does Target have? Do they have a sign on the south side? Councilman Senn: They're on two sides. Cindy Kirchoff: They're on two sides. Councilman Senn: Plus a pylon and that was going to be my next question. In terms of the ordinance, the ordinance allows signage on two sides plus a pylon, correct? Cindy Kirchoff: In this instance, yes. It depends on the zoning district but you're just allowed signage on street elevation, or street frontages only. And in this case the zoning of this property which I believe is BH would entitle them to have a pylon on Highway 5. Councilman Senn: Okay, so they could put a pylon on Highway 5 under the ordinance. Put all the tenant's names up there or whatever within a certain square footage area as long as they stay within the square footage area allowed? Cindy Kirchoff: That's correct. There is one existing and Giant Panda does have their name plate on that pylon sign. Councilman Senn: And then in this one here, is there also an entry monument sign or not? Cindy Kirchoff: No, I don't believe so. Councilman Senn: Okay. Councilwoman Jansen: Am I correct in thinking that we did give a variance to put the signage on the west side of the building? Isn't that how I read this? Cindy Kirchoff: Essentially it was a variance because it does not have street frontage. And that's not what the ordinance requires. So they had to give a variance essentially when the site plan review was done for that building. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay, so they did at the time, okay. Councilman Senn: Yeah, I remember the discussion at the time was it was an elongated, thin building given the size of the parcel. What was it, Country, the restaurant that used to be there. But essentially because of the shape of the center, the only way they could each have signage and exposure was to put it on the west side. So that's why we granted the variance for the west side is so they could all have effectively frontage to the, you know for the parking area and really exposure to TH 5 because it is visible to TH 5. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. Councilman Senn: There wasn't any other way to do it. Mayor Mancino: And they could still have window signage also. 12 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Councilman Senn: And the owner chose, and I mean the owner chose at that time to put it on the north side. I mean it could have been the south side and the west side in keeping with the two frontages. Mayor Mancino: My last comments are, I did read the Planning Commission's recommendation to us. Went through kind of their thinking and logic that we got in our packet that was dated January 6th. And I agree with their comments because we are trying to stick to the ordinance and to make it fair and equitable for every business in Chanhassen and so I would personally go with their recommendation. May I have a motion please. Councilman Senn: So what is it? Denial then of an amendment? Mayor Mancino: Yes. On page 5 of the staff report. Councilman Engel: Recommend denial of the amendment per planning commission recommendation. Mayor Mancino: Is there a second? Councilwoman Jansen: I'll second. Councilman Engel moved, Councilwoman Jansen seconded to deny the amendment to SPR #96-4 for the construction of a 40 square foot illuminated wall sign and a 4.7 square foot logo based upon the findings presented in the staff report and the following: 1. The applicant has visibility on TH 5 with the existing pylon sign. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Roman Roos asked a question from the audience. Mayor Mancino: Joel, is there an appeal process? Joel Jamnik: Mayor and staff member, or council members. The appeal process from a denial of the Council action is the District Court. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you for coming. APPOINTMENT TO SOUTHWEST METRO TRANSIT COMMISSION. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn has served on this commission for a couple of years. I would certainly volunteer to serve on the commission. If there's anyone else that would volunteer to serve on the commission, that would be fine too. Okay, I'll take it. So may I please have a motion please. Councilman Labatt: I make a motion to appoint Mayor Mancino as the city representative to the Southwest Metro Transit Commission. Councilman Engel: Second. 13 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Councilman Labatt moved, Councilman Engel seconded to appoint Mayor Mancino as the City of Chanhassen representative to the Southwest Metro Transit Commission. All voted in favor and the motion carried. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: None. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: CABLE TV UPDATE, ACTING CITY MANAGER. Mayor Mancino: So what's happening with cable TV? Todd Gerhardt: Well, approximately a year ago the city council approved a franchise agreement with Triax. As a part of that, the city has been designated the operator of the PEG access channel. And the PEG access channel is the channel in which the City Council airs it's city council meetings and planning commission meetings and then we also get some educational programs from school district 112. Prom events. Band concerts and in the past Triax has hired a PEG access administrator to ensure that those tapes are aired over the public access channel. As a part of that franchise agreement, Triax is no longer going to be administering maintenance of that facility. Staff has been working with the city of Mound in a collaborative effort of trying to jointly work together in hiring a PEG access administrator to ensure that those programs will be continued to be aired and administered and that the equipment is working properly. The PEG access right now sits over in Mound in the school. The equipment and everything is still there. And that equipment is owned between the City of Mound and the City of Chanhassen. With that we've been negotiating with Triax to come up with a dollar amount that Triax would send to us to pay for the operation of that facility. And I would hope in the next couple of weeks that we will figure out how much that money will be. But we feel that it would be enough to buy equipment, staff it and also put money aside for incremental cost of living increases. Plus the growth in cable subscribers would also be a revenue back. Right now in your cable bill, you're paying a percentage of, a percentage of your cable bill goes to that PEG access. What is going to happen is that money that's going to, that Triax has been using to pay for that PEG access will be diverted from Triax to the City of Chanhassen and Mound. And then we will then take that money and operate the PEG access. But right now we haven't completed our negotiations with Triax in determining that dollar amount and that they have still been operating that PEG access. But we would hope that sometime in the March-April time frame that we would physically take that facility over and would be under our jurisdiction and control. Mayor Mancino: Our jurisdiction or Mound and our? Todd Gerhardt: Mound and us. Mayor Mancino: Okay. So do we have a joint powers of agreement? Todd Gerhardt: Not yet. That would be another. What I would like to bring back to you is a budget and then estimated revenues coming from negotiations with Triax and then a joint powers agreement between the City of Mound and Chanhassen on which city's responsibilities and percentage of money would go towards that operation. Councilman Senn: Todd, help me out. What's the studio that's in Excelsior? Todd Gerhardt: That's the Lakes Community Studio. That's Orono, Greenwood, Deephaven, and Minnetonka. No, not Minnetonka. Excelsior. 14 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Councilman Senn: Okay. So they have basically a joint operating agreement and they have one too. Todd Gerhardt: Well what they've done is they've combined all of the city's franchise fee money together to operate that facility. Councilman Senn: Now in relationship to that, my understanding is that they have just lost their lease in the building in Excelsior. And my understanding is there is, that they are going or there's discussions or it appears that they're going to relocate to Mound. Or Long Lake or something like that but I mean it's going to be kind of something up that way. Would it make more sense given that situation that we look at something that could be a little more centrally located and be something that could maybe be shared between more of the communities to keep the cost down in relationship to that. I mean you know one of the observations I've had, if our access point's in Mound, how many people in Chanhassen are going to use it? I can't imagine you know too many driving all the way to Mound to use it. Excelsior's had one you know a mile up our doorstep almost and I don't know for sure what they're going to do to relocate it but I mean if they do have to relocate it would be seems to me the ideal time to maybe at least look at that. Again, maybe there's nothing possible there but that was just, somebody had, that I ran into Sunday told me that and just kind of asked if we were doing anything about it. I said I don't know and I just said I'll ask. Todd Gerhardt: We're not a part of the Excelsior one. For the past I don't know, ever since the franchise, since Triax has come into the community or when it was Dowden or Dowsat, ever since we've had cable in the community, our PEG access has always been in Mound. The one in Excelsior is the lakes communities. It's Tonka Bay. We're not associated with them. Councilman Senn: No, no. Don't get me wrong. I understand what you're saying. You know like in Paragon's case they have separate ones and have a studio in Hopkins or Hopkins and Minnetonka. Eden Prairie for Eden Prairie and all that. They just consolidated all of theirs into one facility in Eden Prairie which all of the communities now share you know on a cooperative basis in Eden Prairie. And all I'm saying is should we look at that? Is there a possibility to do that there rather than you know simply devoting heavier dollars from us and Mound. I mean effectively we're 2/3 of the subscribers or 1/3 of the subscribers as I understand the subscription numbers on cable at this point, yet you're locating the facility you know way up on the end, the far end of the 1/3 of the subscribers. Mayor Mancino: Well give us a little history. How did it get to be at Mound to begin with? I mean this was how many years ago? Todd Gerhardt: Because it's not located in Triax's office building. It's located in the school. My guess is they probably had space available there. It's located in the old Mound school and they're remodeling that for a community center right now and they were questioning if they were going to keep the studio there or not and they have decided now to leave the studio there so. And as to us joining in with the Lake Minnetonka group, I'm not sure. We researched that effort. We did research the effort with Wayzata and Waconia and they chose to continue to operate their facilities out of their own studios so they air them out of I think the school has one in Waconia and then Wayzata, I'm not sure where theirs is. But they have a separate one and so we were looking at continuing to use what we have over the last 20 years out of Mound. So ifI hear you, you want us to research the idea of operating out of the Lakes or getting it closer? 15 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Councilman Senn: Yeah, one thing that'd be nice to know, since we do have a history and I'm assuming records are kept. I'd be really curious before we get into any type of cooperative agreement, if it is just with the city of Mound. That we understand over the last 20 years if it's been what the use of that facility has been by Mound customers and by Chanhassen customers. You know rather than simply accept a split of cost based on cable subscribers where we put a much bigger burden on us. I'd be curious if we're in effect using 2/3 of the time of the facility or you know using it twice the time effectively that Mound is. I mean have you looked at that at all or have any historical records on that before we get into negotiating or doing an agreement? Todd Gerhardt: I don't think we looked at the users. We were, I know because the facility was located in Mound that they put a lot more capital into the facility. When equipment would break down, you know Sally had the ear of the local administrator there and they would get equipment for Sally and we rarely you know had requests for equipment. I mean I can't remember if we ever had any. But I don't know if we ever, I'm sure they have a log ofuseages and who's used it and where they're from. I can get that for you. Councilman Senn: Now on a somewhat related but not related item, when is their, under our agreement when is their upgrade to be completed? Todd Gerhardt: I believe it's December of '99. Councilman Senn: Okay, so they have this year yet to do it then. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, it was a year and a half starting once the franchise agreement was approved. Councilman Senn: Okay. Mayor Mancino: ...just hoping that somebody's checking that. Councilman Senn: Don't get your hopes up. They were just placed in default by Wayzata for missing the upgrade time line so. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Eastern Carver, are you done? Todd Gerhardt: Yeah. If there wasn't anything else, I'm supposed to bring back what we can do to try to get it closer here. If there's any options in getting it closer and to try to get a log of usage. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Todd, do you want to give us an update and what did we just get on the Eastern Carver County Collaborative? Todd Gerhardt: Well you've got, I laid two things out in front of you prior to tonight's meeting. You should one, have a resolution. And two, was the handouts at our last Wednesday meeting with the Eastern Carver County Collaborative Planning Project. This project, the mayor and myself have been working with community leaders for the past oh year I would say in the possibility of collaborating on a unique project that would include K-5, elementary school located in Victoria. Sites that they were looking at were south of Highway 5 on Bavaria Road. Adjacent to the Arboretum property or in that vicinity and also in the vicinity was the new Catholic High School that's planned in Victoria. The Arboretum involvement in this is that they would like to include a science resource center as a part of the new elementary school. Continuing their effort of science research and working with the youth in School District 112 and 276. A 16 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 library learning center was included as a part of this project. This is a unique library system where you would have an elementary library that would be screened off during the day and used for the children and then in the evening would be opened up to the public. And during the day when the children are using it, there would be a kiosk for people to use to register for books and then later pick up. Outdoor recreational facilities included six outdoor soccer fields and two football fields with two of the fields being lighted. Community multi-use space, very similar to Bluff Creek Elementary. You would have some gym space and community rooms that would be a part of the project. And then the sixth thing was a coordination of comprehensive land use plans. Sharing of land use throughout the city and the school district's long term planning as a part of this project. Before you is a resolution asking for your support of moving on to what is Phase II of the planning activities. Under Phase I we came up with the project descriptions which are outlined in the packet that I handed out. And I did some preliminary cost summaries. One which showed the project as if each community was to build these things on their own and then cost savings of doing it on a collaborative basis. There was some site considerations. Demonstrations shown at the meeting last Wednesday and then there were discussions about trying to get resolutions from each of the boards. Carver County, Victoria, City of Victoria, City of Carver, City of Chaska, City of Chanhassen and School District 112 and going on and getting special legislation for support and doing the planning of this joint facility. With that, if we are to move on to Phase II, there would not be any money out of the city's pocket in this if we get special legislation to move ahead .... to continue working with the collaborative group and moving onto Phase II. Mayor Mancino: If I could just add a couple comments and that is. One of our strategies that we've talked about as a council, and have put forward in printed word is to promote regional financing of facilities that benefit Chanhassen as well as our neighboring communities and avoid duplication of services. So that is mainly why we have been meeting with the Eastern Carver County Collaborative to see what's up. I think it's wonderful that the Arboretum would like to support science projects in the schools, especially School District 112 and 276. They actually would like to work on... Director of the Arboretum, they would like to take this out further than these two school districts. They would like to take it out to other counties and maybe even statewide at some point but obviously they want to start here in the Chanhassen, Victoria, Chaska area. So it's a wonderful vision that they have and they do have some money, state money to be looking at land and to be expanding the education part of the Arboretum. And again, what brought this together is that number one, District 112 needs a new elementary school and the school board has decided that this would be in Victoria and Victoria is seeing this area, this one kind of destination area in Victoria by the Arboretum, contiguous to the Arboretum where they have bought, the City of Victoria has also bought I think 30 or 40 acres for a community park so there's the Arboretum. There's Victoria has bought 30 or 40 acres of community park. A K through 5 elementary school and then also the new Catholic High School. This is all going to be in this area. So they wanted to bring it to all of us and say you know, look at what we have starting here. By signing this resolution, I want it to be really clear. It shows that we as a city, City of Chanhassen, support their kind of regional planning. As we go into Phase II we are asking, this group is asking the legislature for planning money. Approximately $400,000.00. Todd Gerhardt: Correct. Mayor Mancino: Is it asking at this point for us to sign a resolution for the City of Chanhassen to be putting in any money at all? Todd Gerhardt: Well. 17 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Let's say we don't. Let's say the legislature says no. We're not going to give you $400,000.00. Are they then going to come back to each city and say we didn't get it. Now do you want to participate in Phase II? Todd Gerhardt: No. You can still participate in Phase II but you should be aware that if you decide to sign on with any part of it you will have a prorated cost of the Phase II planning effort. And Phase I planning effort. Councilman Senn: Who's paying for Phase I and Phase II in the meantime? Todd Gerhardt: The school is up fronting the cost on that. Councilman Senn: With no obligation on our part to kick in towards that cost? At this time nor as a result of signing this resolution? Todd Gerhardt: No. Mayor Mancino: So all this resolution does is just say we... Todd Gerhardt: And to go get special legislation to help offset this collaborative effort in planning. Councilwoman Jansen: Did I not hear you correctly then, did you not just say that if we don't get the special legislation, then they come back if we've signed this and they pro-rate the cost of Phase I and II? Todd Gerhardt: Only if you sign on and we benefit as a part of the project. So if you decide you want some of the soccer fields, you would have a pro, whatever the share of that soccer field is, you would have a pro-rated cost of that planning effort. Mayor Mancino: And when he says sign on, he doesn't mean signing this resolution. Todd Gerhardt: No. I mean agreeing to a part of the activities. You know if you decided to go along with some of the outdoor recreational space. If you see that two of the soccer fields cost us $200,000.00 to be built out in Victoria and if we were to build two soccer fields in Chanhassen, that might cost us $400,000.00. So you would be saving the city of Chanhassen of $200,000.00 by joining on as a part of the collaborative effort. Councilwoman Jansen: So you can actually go through facility by facility and say which ones? Todd Gerhardt: So that will be probably one of the next steps that we're going to have to make a decision on here in the next couple of months is, do you want to sign on for any part of these projects? Do you see a benefit there? Mayor Mancino: But actually the intent of the resolution is so that we can approach the legislature and say we support it. Todd Gerhardt: We support it. Mayor Mancino: That's all it is. 18 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Todd Gerhardt: We hope this is a working model for future schools so say that they were to build a middle school in Chanhassen. We would use this same model to see what other needs in the surrounding communities are. One of them that we talked about was a gymnastic school. We did not include this as a part of the project because they felt that that was more important to be associated with a middle school or a high school. Not an elementary school. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. Because if I'm looking at this right, aren't we looking at $24 million for the project? Is that the total? $24,452,500.00? So I guess I'm just wanting to be real careful as to what we're getting ourselves into. Todd Gerhardt: Well those are our total costs for the upper range. Councilman Senn: But Linda, are you comfortable with the Now Therefore, Be it Resolved if you look at that? Now Therefore, Be it Resolved that the Governing Board of Chanhassen indicates it's intent to continue in Phase II planning activities such as, and then list five items there. And then that is the $400,000.00. I read that I get a little uncomfortable with it. Mayor Mancino: Or is there a way for us to reword that so that we do feel comfortable? Councilman Senn: So we can make dam sure. Joel Jamnik: Mayor, Council members. It'd be pretty difficult to redraft this as we sort of go on the fly on it. But the $400,000.00 grant, as I understand it is what will be sought from the legislature. This does not, in my opinion, bind the City Council to pay anything to retain a lobbyist. To retain an attorney or do any of those items at this point, but rather just a statement of intent to continue exploring the options. If anybody sent a bill to the city stating that this agreement somehow mandates payment, I would say there's no statement to that effect. It does not do that. This is I think about as milk toast of an agreement as you could possibly get. It simply says you will continue to explore your options. Continue to indicate an intent to look at Phase II but does not commit the community in any way as a binding commitment to finance anything or participate. You could pull out tomorrow basically. Todd Gerhardt: See the School District has to join, or has to have a variety of different levels that they have to look at this. They need an elementary school. They need to go to referendum and so they need to start doing the engineering and architectural and construction solutions to this element. And so you know, we're just following through with that. There may be small additional to include a science center or to layout some soccer fields but this is cost that the school district would have to incur with the exception of the lobbyist portion of it. Mayor Mancino: Good. And can we go ahead and act on this even though it was not on the agenda? Todd Gerhardt: As long as a majority of the City Council is in agreement, you can. Mayor Mancino: In agreement to act on it? Todd Gerhardt: Yes. 19 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: Okay. Then may I have a motion. Is the majority of the city council feel comfortable on this tonight? Do you feel comfortable acting on this tonight? Councilwoman Jansen: I'm still feeling like, I just, I want to make it real clear so that they know that we're taking this to me that we're not signing in on anything Phase I, Phase II but sure. If you want to hear that we'll go along with the whole planning process. Mayor Mancino: Well only I can defer to our attorney who said that you're not. Councilwoman Jansen: It just, it seems to say more than that. Maybe it doesn't. I guess if we fall back on attorney advice, fine. I'm comfortable. I'm saying I don't want to have it come down to they're coming back to us and saying well, that was our intention in drafting this. If we state up front in signing it that yes, with the understanding that we haven't committed financially Phase I, Phase II. Mayor Mancino: Well two things. First of all, our attorney is saying no. That we're not committing. The other thing is that during the meetings that Todd and I have attended we have absolutely stated that this would have to come back to council. That we would have to see where our council is on participating because we aren't particularly sure that we would participate in all of this. The different vehicles here so we have made that very up front. Councilwoman Jansen: Okay. Todd Gerhardt: You need to remember too, you know this collaborative effort will be used for you know other models. And you know.., middle school gets built in Chanhassen, you know maybe other communities may want to participate but they will sit through the collaborative meetings and that and seeing if there's any needs that they have. Councilman Senn: No Todd, I understand but I guess, you know I just really, you know what's being said is very important to remain very, very clear because you know it all comes down to timing. And Chanhassen's done a collaborative effort on a new elementary school so far to the tune of $4 million, over $4 million of city funds. Okay. And you know we've built soccer fields and Victoria hasn't built any you know, etc., etc., so I mean how each community looks at this and how we look at in terms of actual benefit that we get out of it in relationship also to what we've already invested and done that other communities have not done, you know that's something you have to take into consideration in relationship to city resources. Especially when half of the community is in one school district and half in the other. Mayor Mancino: And we have certainly gone with that thought. Councilman Senn: Yeah, and so I mean that just really needs to remain clear as we go into this. We can support their efforts but that doesn't necessarily mean we're going to participate. Mayor Mancino: Joel, do we need to make a, excuse me. Do we need to have a motion and vote on it for the majority to want to vote on the motion? Do we need to make two? Joel Jamnik: Mayor, members. The By-laws that you've adopted do not require a formal motion. It's simply a sense of the council that something that wasn't on the preliminary agenda should be added would be sufficient. 20 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Mayor Mancino: But we do need to make a motion to accept the resolution and to sign it? Joel Jamnik: That is correct. Mayor Mancino: Okay, great. May I have a motion please. I'll make the motion that the City Council support the resolution for Phase II planning activity of the Eastern Carver County, Minnesota Community Collaborative. Planning Project that is in front of us dated 1/25/99 and that we do go ahead and sign it. And I'd also like to just note on this that it in no way puts the City of Chanhassen in any way to make any payment for the Phase II planning. May I have a second? Councilman Engel: I'll second that. Resolution #99-06: Mayor Mancino moved, Councilman Engel seconded that the City Council support the resolution for Phase II planning activity of the Eastern Carver County, Minnesota Community Collaborative. Planning Project that is dated 1/25/99 with note that this in no way puts the City of Chanhassen in any way to make any payment for the Phase II planning. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET SECTION: Mayor Mancino: Any questions on the Admin Section? Councilman Senn: Todd, there's an update in here from Carver County. Where are we on the TH 101 planning? Todd Gerhardt: I asked Anita to put that on our next alley news so you'll get that answer when you get your Wednesday packet. I know that Eden Prairie, they were just going to meet with the City of Eden Prairie there last week or this week. Mayor Mancino: And then were they not going to come back and hold public hearings for TH 101 for the Eden Prairie and the Chanhassen sides? Todd Gerhardt: I believe that was the schedule but I think there was also supposed to be a response back to the City Council after they met with Eden Prairie. Councilman Senn: Right, before that happened. Mayor Mancino: That would be helpful. Todd Gerhardt: Yes. And so that's how come you haven't had it in front of you is because Eden Prairie through the holidays and the beginning of the year has not been able to schedule their council. Mayor Mancino: Okay, any other? Mayor Mancino adjourned the City Council meeting at 7:47 p.m. Submitted by Todd Gerhardt Acting City Manager 21 City Council Meeting - January 25, 1999 Prepared by Nann Opheim 22