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9. Request for Reconsideration of Wetland Permit, Kings Rd. & Minnewashta Pkwy CITYOF .A CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 ' (612) 937-1900 Action by Ci'y ^,171-,'• r+ ' MEMORANDUM Endorse? AP modificc T0: Don Ashworth, City Manager ' FROM: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner &' c) DATE: August 9 , 1989 SUBJ: Wetland Alteration Permit for Daryl Kirt Staff had been contacted by the applicant, Daryl Kirt, requesting that the City Council reconsider the wetland alteration permit ' for the partial filling of the wetland on his lot. The applicant was not in attendance of the City Council meeting and wishes to be able to speak to the Council in regards to his application for the wetland alteration permit. ' The applicant is requesting that the City Council approve a vote to reconsider the item at the next City Council meeting (August 28 , 1989) . ATTACHMENTS 1. Letter from Jo Ann Olsen dated August 2 , 1989 . 2 . City Council minutes dated July 24, 1989 . 3 . Excerpt from City Council by-laws . Manager' s. Comments : Mr. Kirt would like to show the City Council the area proposed to be filled. The area represents a poor quality wetland with the primary wetland being of significant distance from the proposed home. I recognize that the Council is concerned with establishing precedents . However, the proposed amount of fill provides for a minimal back yard and repreesnts less than i of the dirt that is typically excavated for a single family house. If the Council were to reconsider and approve the permit (a waiver of Council Procedures would be required for approving the permit, i .e. a 4/5ths affirmative vote) , reasons for doing such should be stated. Reasons could include: r - The parcel was created prior to establishment of the wetland ordinance; - Denial of use could be interpretted as depriving all use; 11 Manager ' s Comments I August 10 , 1989 Page 2 i - The parcel is 95% wetland - a large portion of which being a Class A wetland. The alteration being proposed represents disturbing less than 1% of the parcel and that portion represents the lowest quality portion of the ' wetland (Class B) . Urn 1 I I I i I i I I 1 I 1 1 r 1 CITY OF NEASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 1 (612) 937-1900 August 2, 1989 1 1 Mr. Daryl Kirt P.O. Box 692 Chanhassen, MN 55317 1 Dear Daryl: I have been trying to reach you since your first phone call on 1 Monday, July 31, 1989 . Since I have not been able to reach you by phone, I am instead sending you this letter to try to answer what I believe are some of your concerns. It is my understanding 1 that you did not understand the wetland alteration permit process and did not know that your item was on the last City Council agenda (July 19 , 1989) . As I explained to you and Debra, there 1 were two processes that you had to follow for the development of your single family home. The first would be to receive a variance to the 75 foot wetland setback and the second was to receive a wetland alteration permit for development within 200 1 feet and partial filling of a Class A wetland. The variance is heard only in front of the Board of Adjustments and Appeals and City Council. The wetland alteration permit is reviewed by the 1 Planning Commission and City Council . It was my understanding that you wished to receive the variance first so that you could apply for the building permit as soon as possible and start construction this fall. 1 The Board of Adjustments and City Council approved the variance to the wetland setback to allow you to construct your single 1 family residence within 75 feet of the wetland setback. The City Council did not approve the wetland alteration permit to allow you to fill a portion of the wetland, but they did approve deve- lopment within 200 feet of the Class A wetland so that you could still construct your house. The report for the wetland altera- tion permit stated the date of the Planning Commission meeting and City Council meeting on the front of the report. Also, at 1 the Planning Commission meeting it was announced when your item would be heard in front of the City Council . The City Council report and an agenda are sent out to the applicant prior to the 1 City Council meeting and you should have received this in the mail. I apologize if you did not understand that the wetland alteration permit would still be heard in front of the City ^° Council after the Planning Commission meeting. 1 Mr. Daryl Kirt 1 August 2 , 1989 Page 2 Please try to contact me should ou still ' Y 11 have questions and I will continue to try to reach you by phone. F Sincerely, Jo Ann Olsen 1 Senior Planner JO:v cc: Don Ashworth 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 i 1 1 r re: 1 1 City Council Meeting - July 24, 1989 B. LAKE RILEY WOODS 2ND ADDITION, GEORGE NELSON AND ASSOCIATES, (2) APPROVE PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS. ' Councilwoman Dimler: This is just a real short item. I brought up this concern before and that is about this school bus situation on that road. Some of the ' residents have a real concern about the children having to go out to 14 to catch the bus and I know the future phase there, eventually that road is going to go through but Gary, do you know is that land right-of-way or is that years down the line? Gary Warren: The connection of Foxboro on the east end is a part of the County's current project that's under construction right now so that should be completed this year. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay but there's a cul-de-sac shown there. ' Gary Warren: Right. There was a temporary cul-de-sac that was required by the Council until such time as the County road project realignment was completed or we had a time deadline in there but the County road plans and specifications do include the completion of that connection to CR 17 on the east end. Councilwoman Dimler: So you think that will kind of happen concurrently or will ' there be a large time lapse? Gary Warren: It should be done this construction season. ' Councilwoman Dimler: Then the school bus will just go in and out? Gary Warren: I don't schedule the school buses but I would presume. .. ' Councilwoman Dimler: But that would be the logical thing? ' Gary Warren: Yes. Councilman Workman: Gary, is that going to be another. Teton Lane? Are we going to be able to open that? Gary Warren: It will be built to City standards and full section. It will be open when their construction is done. Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve plans and ' specifications for Lake Riley Woods 2nd Addition as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. G. WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR FILLING IN A PORTION OF A CLASS A WETLAND, SOUTHWEST CORNER OF KINGS ROAD AND MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY, DARYL KIRT. Councilman Boyt: I talked to Jo Ann about this earlier today. I had some concerns and I guess the easiest way to focus the concerns is, since I drive down TH 101 a couple times almost every day, I've spent a lot of time lookinf at ' that marsh as it's been filled in by houses. A previous Council did that, approved that quite some time ago is my understanding but what I'm concerned 2 City Council Meeting - July 24, 1989 II II about is that when we allow wetland alteration permits, it's really because one, no other choice. Two, I think we have a past record of trying to improve wetlands when we alter them rather than just alter them. This one doesn't, I II gather, lend itself to improving but I'm concerned that all of this is a fairly small portion. What's to stop someone else from building their house on a Class A wetland and wanting to fill in so they have a back yard? It's the principle II that concerns me. This is a wetland alteration permit to fill in about 400 feet, not in length or anything but 400 square feet of a Class A wetland and I don't think it should be approved as my understanding of it. I Mayor Chmiel: Do we have any discussion? Councilman Johnson: Didn't we go through this once before? I Councilwoman Dimler: Yes, I think we did. __ Councilman Boyt: We went through a variance request and we gave the variance II because the people certainly needed to be able to build their house there. Building your house on the edge of a wetland and then having the City give you the opportunity to fill in that wetland for a back yard I think are two II different issues. Mayor Chmiel: Is there any additional room on that property? If they wanted to II fill a portion, is that a full portion of the back yard you're saying? Councilman Boyt: Well they're asking for a fairly small. I Mayor Chmiel: Yes, put that up would you Jo Ann. Jo Ann Olsen: This is the edge of the wetland and this is what they're II proposing to fill. This small portion. The wetland is 6 acres attached to Lake St. Joe. The question that they're recommending, they're proposing to fill has already had some filling and is poor quality so they did not feel it was really II detrimental or harmful to the wetland what they were proposing to fill. The applicant has worked, in going through the variance, you can see that they've tried to meet all the setbacks and keep it as far away from the wetland as II possible. They designed a narrower house so they would not impact it as much. The Planning Commission also brought out the concern was it really necessary? What were we getting in return for allowing the wetland alteration permit and I guess it's really, the answer is we're just being reasonable I guess. They II worked closely with us to try to not alter it. We worked with the Fish and Wildlife Service and the DNR and the Corps and they did not feel that this was harmful. It's such a very, very small portion of the wetland. I guess the II concern is what will we do for the next wetland. ..and differentiate between the two. I feel confident that we can. Mayor Chmiel: Differentiating, as you just say Jo Ann, if another individual II came in and had a total of 6 acres as well, they wanted to fill in just a portion. They accommodated their house to the particular site, what would be your position on that? II Jo Ann Olsen: That would be almost the same case as this one. When we review these, we use the standards of the ordinance and then we also look to see what II the existing conditions are and what we actually have on the site with the 3 II City Council Meeting - July 24, 1989 proposal. This was not felt that this would be.. .to the wetland. I guess I ' don't have a concrete explanation. I guess if they don't necessarily have to have it, if you have the house, it could be denied and they could still have a house there. ' Councilman Workman: Jo Ann, you mentioned that that edge of the wetland was not, what? High quality? ' Jo Ann Olsen: It's more like kind of a drainage area that has been in the past been, there were some concrete pieces back in there. They were going to be taking that out. Cleaning it up. Filling it and preserving the edge there. When we visited the site with the Fish and Wildlife and we looked at that area, he said yes you could definitely fill in and make the curve because right now it kind of came out and that's where... ' Councilwoman Dimler: Is it your feeling that filling it in would improve it? Jo Ann Olsen: I can't say that it's going to improve it. I don't feel it will ' be detrimental though. Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I'd like to say that I agree with Bill on the Colonial Grove one. Every time I drive by there I just get angry that that was ' allowed and I know that we both met on Easter Sunday with some neighbors there that are getting all the runoff problems so I don't want to set a precedent by filling in wetlands and allowing that to happen ever. again. I think we've wised ' up and we should. .. Councilman Boyt: I would suggest that whether it's 6 1/2 acres or a half an ' acre makes no difference. That when people buy land next to a wetland, that's what they're buying. There are restraints on that. To say that, if Jo Ann or the DNR or anyone of those groups would say this isn't a wetland. What they're filling in isn't a wetland, then I wouldn't have any problem with this at all. ' But when they define it as a wetland and when they define it as a Class A wetland which happens to be the highest class we have, then when we start issuing alteration permits, I think we have to be very careful. Roger can correct me but I don't think the Court's very sympathetic to saying well, you know we want this one but we don't want that one. Roger? ' Roger Knutson: I think you suunied it up. You have to treat similarly situated people similarly and the hard part is making those differentiations. You have to have good reasons for what you're doing but if you have them and you can articulate them and distinguish one situation from another, you're okay but if you can't articulate that distinction, someone else will try to lump them together for you. Saying if you gave one you have to give the other. ' Councilman Johnson: I think we need to approve the permit because without the permit, they can't build a house either because it's also a variance of 75 foot setback I believe. Jo Ann Olsen: They got that. Councilman Boyt: They had that. 1 4 City Council Meeting - July 24, 1989 II Jo Ann Olsen: Technically they do need a wetland I alteration within 200 feet of a Class A wetlandnd alt�r_atzon permit for the Councilman Johnson: Which building a house is alteration so the have to h II to build the house? Y ave Jo Ann Olsen: Right. And I didn't separate the two. II Councilman Johnson: So there's two issues within this. Is to build the house, one and to fill, two. I'd be for saying that approve it for building the house ' and within the fill area, we'll approve it for removing concrete and cleaning up the area of the wetland but not necessarily filling that area. In other words, if there's piles of concrete and stuff back there, I have no problem with them II going into the wetland and making those types of alterations for the wetland as an improvement but not elimination of the wetland. Mayor Chmiel: Not filling it in? II Councilman Johnson: Yes. I don't think you need a permit to go out and remove concrete from a wetland. II Councilman Boyt: Well I have no trouble with the alteration so they can build their house. That's fine. II Mayor Chmiel: Any further discussion?_ If the applicant is here, are Daryl and Debra Kirt here? Councilman Johnson: I don't see them. II Councilman Workman: How much of the wetland we're caning back? You say about 6 II feet they're going to fill Jo Ann? Jo Ann Olsen: 6 feet? This area right there. I Councilman Boyt: The area in red is basically what they're filling. Councilman Workman: And they basically just want that for a larger yard? II Jo Ann Olsen: It's just so they can flatten it out behind the yard and it doesn't go straight into the wetland. What they're doing is pushing back the II edge of the wetland so they're not right on top of it. What would happen is the filling right now, their house will be right above the edge of the wetland here. We're just giving them some more area. They're not II to be revegetating it with natural wild flowers and things tlike�that. It's not going to manicured lawn up to there. Councilman Workman: Jo Ann, where does the DNR and Fish and Wildlife Service I get off on this where we're not? Councilman Boyt: We have a more stringent code than they do. t Jo Ann Olsen: The Fish and Wildlife doesn't have any jurisdiction. We just use them as our sounding board. II 5 I City Council Meeting - July 24, 1989 Councilman Workman: What about DNR? ' Jo Ann Olsen: DNR, they only protect very large wetlands. The Corps, you can get a nationwide filling permit for less than 1 acre. Again, if it's a protected wetland by them. ' Councilman Workman: Roger, are we going to be denying these people any kind of useage? ' Roger Knutson: If you give than the house. I mean if you didn't give than the house then I think yes, definitely. I've not seen the site but if they have a reasonable place to put a house, I guess you're not involved in taking issues. Councilman Workman: When this first came up I asked the question, Jo Ann if you remember, if somebody owns a swamp can they fill in to build on it if it's a lot ' because I was looking for a little bit of justification. When it comes to wetlands, I think I'm not afraid to be a hard liner on it and if the rest of the Council feels that protecting the Class A wetland is better than giving somebody an extended yard, I'd be for it. Councilman Johnson: Jo Ann are they having, I noticed the entire area is going to be filled. The upland area and the wetland area. There's almost nothing on ' here not being filled. Is that all just from the excavation of the house or do you know if they plan on bringing fill in? ' Jo Ann Olsen: I don't know that answer. I don't know if it's going to be a basement. It's pretty wet there. Wet soils. Mayor Chmiel: It's probably on grade. ' Councilman Boyt: Are we ready for a motion? ' Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? Councilman Johnson: I've just got one more question. How far above the ordinary high water mark does the basement have to be? ' Gary Warren: The first floor needs to be 2 feet above. ' Councilman Johnson: 2 feet? So if they do a basement, it has to be 947 and the base of the house is 951. That's pretty short. Jo Ann Olsen: I don't believe that they are going to have a basement. Gary Warren: First floor has to be 2 feet above. ' Mayor. Chmiel: And they would be within it. Any other discussion? Hearing none, is there a motion? Councilman Boyt: I would move denial of the specific part of the wetland alteration permit that was, I would move denial of the wetland alteration permit so that it would prevent the filling the Class A wetland and allow the building [-17 ' of the house. 6 City Council Meeting - July 24, 1989 ' Councilwoman Dimler: Second. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded denial of Wetland Alteration Permit #89-6 so that it would prevent the filling the Class A wetland and allow the building of the house. All voted in favor and the motion carried. K. APPROVAL OF MINUTES. Councilwoman Dimler: The Council Minutes on page 60. Councilman Boyt: We've only got 58. ' Councilwoman Dimler: Well it was towards the end of the meeting. Councilman Boyt: 60, I got 60. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay. At the bottom of the page there, I made a comment. I said, do you have Minutes of that meeting. I don't remember being there. I'd just like the record to show and it refers back to Don Ashworth's comment 6 lines up where he says, if I recall Tan and Ursula were comfortable with what Karen was preparing. I'd just like to state that I wasn't there and I'd like the record to show that. That was on June 5th and I was at my son's 8th grade graduation from St. Hubert's School. I don't want anybody to read this in future days and think that I was confused as to where I was. Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion? If none, would you like to make a motion? Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve the Minutes of the City Council meeting dated July 10, 1989 as amended by Councilwoman Dimler and the Planning Commission Minutes dated July 5, 1989. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Boyt: We might want to discuss a practice that we followed on the ' last Council that might be helpful in these matters. Previous Council, if we didn't have anything to change in anyone else's comments, if they were just ours,_ we just gave those to the typist and they were taken care of. In other words, if they were your comments. Prior to that the Council used to send 20 minutes going over the. .. Councilwoman Dimler: I don't know. This didn't take very long. ' Councilman Boyt: Any way you want to do it. Councilwoman Dimler: Yes, because last time there was a typo too and Tom caught , it. RECYCLING PRIZE DRAWING. Mayor Chmiel drew a name for the recycling , was at $200.00. Y g ptize�which 7 I 3 . Request a report from advisory boards and commissions when such item has been referred to such. 4 . Recognize citizens desiring to speak on such item. 5 . Recognize council members desiring to speak, maintain order and decorum on items of discussion, and generally provide leadership for the council to insure timely and efficient decisions on each item. 6 . Announce the council decision. SECTION 5 . RULES OF DEBATE. ' 5 . 01 . Participation by Presiding Officer. The mayor or other presiding officer may move, second and debate from the chair, subject only to such limitations of debate as are by the rules imposed on all members and shall not be deprived of any of the rights and privileges of a councilman by reason of his acting as the presiding officer. ' 5 . 02 . Recognition by the Chair. Every member desiring to speak shall address the chair, and upon recognition by the Presiding Officer shall confine himself to the question under debate avoiding all personalities and indecorous language. 5 . 03 . Speaking Privileges . A member, once recognized, shall not be interrupted when speaking unless it be to call him to order or to vote on a motion to close a debate, or as herein otherwise provided. If a member, while speaking, be called to order , he shall cease speaking until the question of order is ' \ , determined and if in order he shall be permitted to proceed. 5 . 04 . Reconsideration. A motion to reconsider any action f taken by the council may be made at any time following original action. A motion to reconsider must be made by a member of the Council who voted with the prevailing side. Should a motion to reconsider fail, an additional request for reconsideration cannot occur for a period of six months following the date of the first motion for reconsideration. If a motion to reconsider is passed, then parties entitled to notice shall be notified and action shall be taken at the next regular meeting following passage of the motion to reconsider. Should the city council determine that other parties are not likely to be affected by an item presented for reconsideration, the city council may, at its discretion, act on the original action the same evening as the council votes on reconsideration. 5 . 05. Statements for the Record. A councilman may request, through the presiding officer, the privilege of having an abstract of his statement on any subject under consideration by the council , of the reason for his dissent from or support of any action of the council, entered in the minutes . Such a request may be made at the time of said action or consideration or at the time of the adoption of said minutes . Unless the council, by motion, objects, such statements shall be entered in the minutes. -4- i P.C. DATE: July 5, 1989 CITY OF ■ �% C.C. ::E:8::1::4 1989CASE Prepared by: Olsen/v II STAFF' REPORT il PROPOSAL: Wetland Alteration Permit for the Partial Filling I of a Class A Wetland Z 11 Q V LOCATION: Southwest Corner of Minnewashta Parkway and Kings II ^J Road Cl- APPLICANT: Daryl and Debra Kirt I Q P.O. 692 Chanhassen, MN 55317 II PRESENT ZONING: RSF, Residential Single Family ACREAGE: 6 . 28 acres II DENSITY: ADJACENT ZONING AND LAND USE: N- RSF; single family S- Lake St. Joe II 1.�-. E- PUD; townhomes W- RSF; single family II Q g Y W WATER AND SEWER: Available to the site 1 rrE. v! PHYSICAL CHARAC. : II A majority of the site is a Class A wetland with lakeshore on Lake S`t. Joe. 2000 LAND USE PLAN: Residential Low Density 1 II I -4 I I I ,,'-''' i I rc) I ! I -■ I I , ,..; , .„*.A W. 1 62 ND IN . –...... . . f , UMW /111 101 Mir all, 4446 rfl. lig WO. -Iillitil S:it , / .4.r..`'./ • 1. sm.Ilk figo . : -). X%iri 1!..* ••• Al•g:i 1 El• Ill• ■we la if' I /7 4111■.... - x z IEL-- .alak-w• ill 4 , 0 . • cr - M • it/ • - -- . IONA 11111 ) ff. .-■40.IVA....MM. --- - :.-- ---------......-:N ' / -‘ .----- 0,.1.4"Pilibtv , ' '4■41111 • •a.. ,'P .L; ,C• --,tivirfollii It.wg . ,, i; , i OP41k -4,41411‘67 OV:- & /' \_A/ a .a 4 W. .44 t.a ft- ..- , W: OVM 6 ItiziA YaiiiRma. ' - . ---. 11111i \ -,-T.- •‘10'iii. 4.-..- tig -. .POD tit......--.... •- M..- •' r4° . -r air • 411111 - ' :7•7 a Pr ellt. ..4C11. IIP' 41.2.: AIM 1 itairI141aXlirt MP/ill I..Wain: I -a 4-- •- '4. 1 : - -k , , LAKE .. 11110" os'4* M / NNEW 01 S NTA r „iNos ROAD PUD—R ._ --.: A IL-7 , 1 , •dellir-/; • 7' i __ ,. _ , , .,.. •1 ;.; It J,1„,i4Z, ( L 4 KE -- Al_1..,21cdc-sro ..-'4 \ 1! , ,' I )ST /-? 7------ ,' 0,;-- tr•- . -------,„._ . ipPO■ViN , IF --„, - 11116._ r---7-:-_, - I-we ,-_--,i1- . ,\,.,,, . ,, -- _, . . 1 1,,,,,----,\ \ ._._--—-_____ - 1 l ' - c-9-' , ., ,.:. ,' ? u_ C IIM0 \ *4 i 7 1 , RR ..., . . film& MAPLE PHCRES .1 ■ !. )(- DRIVE .-) ' j---.., . 1(1 .".. ilik 1 . -,_ •-• /,< `: - 1 -^■ .I 411144ANOti ) / Z, ' -Ai '. UPi . \\ Z:-,I ' IMINTO\ rcip, ._„_..1 ---- . • ' S'- 4**- reffires .........,..„_ , ._ , .. _.- . 1 , - .... . .., .- _ . ,.. . 1 I c I e , - _- - i .4••■••■■••■=41/ .....--- Kirt Wetland Alteration Permit July 5 , 1989 ' Page 2 APPLICABLE REGULATIONS Section 20-421 requires a wetland alteration permit for any digging, dredging, or filling of a Class A or B wetland. Section 20-437 allows a minimum amount of filling of a wetland with the following considerations : ' 1. Any filling shall not cause total natural flood storage capa- city of the wetland to fall below or fall below further the projected volume of runoff from the watershed generated by a 5 . 9" rainfall in 24 hours. Since the total amount of filling which can be permitted is limited apportionment of fill opportunities for other properties abutting the wetland shall be considered. 2 . Any filling shall not cause total nutrient stripping capacity of the wetland to be diminished to an extent that is detri- mental to any area river, lake or stream. 3 . Only fill free of chemical pollutants and organic waste may be used. 4 . Filling shall be carried out so as to minimize the impact on ' vegetation. 5 . Filling the wetland areas will not be permitted during water- fowl breeding or fish spawning season unless it is determined by the city that the wetland is not used for waterfowl breeding or fish spawning. ANALYSIS The applicant is requesting a wetland alteration permit to allow a portion of the Class A wetland to be filled to construct a single family residence. The subject site is an existing lot of record of over 6 acres with the majority of the site containing a Class A wetland. Since the site is an existing lot of record, the applicant has the right to build on the lot. The applicant received a variance to the 75 foot wetland setback from the City Council on June 26 , 1989 (Attachment #1) . The applicant is proposing to fill a small area in the northeast corner of the Class A wetland. The area of wetland proposed to be filled is of poor quality in which filling over the past years has already occurred. The better quality portion of the wetland is located south of the area that is proposed to be filled. Staff visited the site several times with the Fish and Wildl2fe Service to determine the edge of the wetland and the extent of filling which would be acceptable. The area and extent of the I ' Kirt Wetland Alteration Permit July 5 , 1989 Page 3 wetland proposed to be filled meets the recommendations of the Fish and Wildlife Service and meets the intent of Section 20-437. ' Although the applicant has the right to build a single family residence on the property and could in fact request more of a wetland alteration, they have instead worked with the existing ' conditions to have as little impact to the wetland as possible. RECOMMENDATION Planning staff recommends the Planning Commission adopt the following motion: ' "The Planning Commission recommends approval of Wetland Alteration Permit #89-6 as shown on the site plan dated June 23 , 1989, subject to the following conditions : 1 . Type III erosion control shall be installed as shown on the site plan. 2 . The applicant shall receive a permit from DNR and the Corps of Engineers . ' PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION The Planning Commission recommended approval of the Wetland Alteration Permit with staff ' s recommended conditions. CITY COUNCIL RECOMMENDATION ' Staff recommends the City Council adopt the following motion: "The City Council approves Wetland Alteration Permit #89-6 as ' shown on the site plan dated June 23 , 1989 , subject to the following conditions : 1 . Type III erosion control shall be installed as shown on the site plan. 2 . The applicant shall receive a permit from DNR and the Corps ' of Engineers . " ATTACHMENTS 1. Variance report. 2 . Site plan dated June 23 , 1989 . 3 . Planning Commission minutes dated July 5 , 1989 . I • • - :i. LAND DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION _ CITY OF CHANHASSEN II' 690 Coulter Drive Chanhassen, MN 55317 • (612) 937-1900 II Or, APPLICANT: �a r. / ,6...a sue/ OWNE . -ADDRESS b (09c1 ADDRESS II CAah `asses 5-53/7 . • TELEPHONE (Daytime) Q.f/g a Zip Ode Zip Code' 03 TELEPHONE REQUEST: • 9,3,74-. /.4r Zoning District Change - Planned Unit Development r`' • Zoning Appeal Sketch Plan II _ Zoning Variance Preliminary plan • Final Plan II Zoning Text Amendment Subdivision Land Use Plan Amendment Platting I •Conditional Use Permit Metes and Bounds Site Plan Review Street/Easement Vacation -- ' )( Wetlands Permit PROJECT NAME . - I PRESENT LAND USE PLAN DESIGNATION REQUESTED LAND USE PLAN DESIGNATION ' PRESENT ZONING •• REQUESTED ZONING I • USES PROPOSED SIZE OF PROPERTY 6.-)t3 ,4e ips .j 6 `7Q Nr)/ti - 580. hAST --346.31, ,sozaz/ N, LOCATION , , _ „Qd A A cz,.,,` v N E a)4 Sher, SO,t} ► e �t,J A i y - #/ REASONS FOR THIS REQUEST j . : ( _ 71 ...../ AA -.. - - NW AA,_ tiL4.41 , t LEGAL DESCRIPTION (Attach legal if necessary ) . 1 essary ) J UN 7 1989 Cl OF CHANHASSEN I en City of Chanhass . Land Development Application I Page 2 IFILING INSTRUCTIONS : This application must be completed in full and be typewritten clearly printed and must be- accompanied by all infotjand or I plans required by applicable City Ordinance information r filing this application y Provisions . to determine the specific ordinance and fproceduralerequi Planner I • applicable to your application. requirements FILING CERTIFICATION: • • The undersi� ned e that he rs familiar ne rresentatiVe of the applicant hereby Iapplicable City Ordinances , Pr°cedural requirements ofcall=fies Signed By At.. / f Applicant _ Date -1e42./.8.2.--_-_—_— ' The undersigned hereby certifies that the a• authorized to make this a applicant has been described . application for the property ty herein I Signed By Z12 Fee Owner Date {fin/$y, W c9_ i9 Date Application Received 6 -7-41 Application Fee Paid 100 GO • I. City Receipt No. IF * This Application will be I Board of Adjustments considered ees at their the Planning Commission/ meeting, and Appeals at their • I . . • 'qb c'ovN. 1 M NA S 1 1 DESCRIPTION Commencing at the Northwest corner of Section 8, Township 116, Range 23 and running thence 1 the North Section line of said Section, a distance of 199 feet to a point thereon, which said point is the point of beginning of the land to be herein described; thence continuing East on said North Section line, a distance of 471 feet to a point in the center of County Road No. 3; thence turning and running South 6 degrees 14 minutes West, along the center line of said road, a distance of 516.3 feet to a point; thence South 13 degrees 35 minutes West a distance of 197.8 feet to a point, which is opposite the Red Cedar Point Road; thence turning and running northwesterly to a point which is 580 feet due South from the point of beginning; thence turning and running North a distance of 580 feet to the place of beginning. Lying and being in Government Lot 1, Section 8, Township 116, Range 23. 1 • 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 �_/ I41.4 C !T Y O F BOA DATE: June 26 , 1989 I \ I r C.C. DATE \, CASE NO: 89-7 Variance I - Prepared by: Olsen/v t 1 STAFF REPORT I IPROPOSAL: A 50 Foot Variance to the 75 Foot Wetland Setback for a Structure Iz Q VLOCATION: Southwest Corner of Minnewashta Parkway and Kings --� Road I1.a_. APPLICANT: Daryl and Debra Kirt P.O. 692 IChanhassen, MN 55317 1 I , PRESENT ZONING: RSF, Residential Single Family IACREAGE: 6 . 28 acres IDENSITY: /._ 2 ADJACENT ZONING `____.__ IAND LAND USE: N- RSF; single family ,, _6/ 4/ Q S- Lake St. Joe I g E- PUD; townhomes 6./a7/_i3____._ W- RSF; single family I W a WATER AND SEWER: Available to the site PHYSICAL CHARAC. : A majority of the site is a Class A wetland with lakeshore on Lake St. Joe. I2000 LAND USE PLAN: Residential Low Density 1 Kirt Variance June 26 , 1989 Page 2 APPLICABLE REGULATIONS Section 20-409 of the Wetland Ordinance requires a minimum struc- ture setback of 75 feet from the ordinary high water mark. ' ANALYSIS The applicant is requesting a setback variance from a Class A ' wetland to allow them to construct a single family residence. The 6 . 3 acre site is located at the southwest corner of Kings Road and Minnewashta Parkway. A majority of the site is a Class A wetland with a small portion of buildable area located in the northeast corner of the site. The lot is an existing lot of record and therefore must be permitted to have a single family residence located on the site. The applicant has worked closely with staff and with the Fish and Wildlife Service to properly stake the edge of the wetland and to locate the proposed single family residence where it would least impact the wetland. The site plan locates the proposed home and garage in the northeast corner of the site where it is meeting the 30 foot front yard setback and is also maintaining a sanitary sewer lift station easement located in the northeast corner of the property. Staff has visited the site several times with the Fish and Wildlife Service to determine the extent, the type and the quality of the wetland. The wetland is of lower quality where the applicant is proposing to be within the 75 foot setback and is also proposing partial fill for the construction of the home. Staff feels that the applicant has tried to situate the house as best possible with the existing conditions of the site and is trying to maintain as much of the 75 foot setback as possible. The closest portion of the proposed structure (garage) would be 25 feet from the edge of the wetland. The Board of Adjustments and Appeals shall not recommend and the Council shall not grant, a variance unless they find the following facts : A. That the literal enforcement of the Ordinance would cause undue hardship and practical difficulty. * The literal enforcement of the 75 foot setback from the edge ' of the wetland would not allow a single family structure to be located on the lot. B . That the hardship is caused by special conditions and cir- cumstances which are peculiar to the land and structure involved and which are not characteristic of or applicable to other lands of structures in the same district. * The hardship is caused by special conditions and circumstances of the lot. The parcel is an existing lot of record with the ' ' Kirt Variance June 26 , 1989 Page 3 majority of the site designated as a protected wetland. Without a variance the site would not be buildable. C. That the granting of the variance is necessary for the preser- vation and enjoyment of substantial property rights . ' * The granting of the variance is necessary for the preservation and enjoyment of substantial property rights. D. That the special conditions and circumstances are not a con- sequence of a self-created hardship. * The special conditions and circumstances are not a consequence ' of a self created hardship. E. That the variance will not be injurious to or adversely affect ' the health, safety or welfare of the residents of the City of the neighborhood wherein the property is situated and will be in keeping with the spirit and intent of the Ordinance. ' * The applicant has worked closely with staff and Fish and Wildlife Service to ensure that the impact to the wetland of ' the proposed house would be minimal. RECOMMENDATION ' Staff recommends the Board of Adjustments and Appeals adopt the following motion: ' "The Board of Adjustments and Appeals approves of Variance #89-7 to permit a single family residence to be located 25 feet from the edge of a Class A wetland as shown on the site plan dated "June 21, 1989" with the following conditions : 1 . Type III erosion control as shown on the site plan will be installed prior to any alteration of the site. ' 2 . Any additions to the garage or home within the required set- backs will require additional variances . " ATTACHMENTS 1. Zoning Ordinance excerpt ' 2 . Site plan dated June 21, 1989 1 1 § 20-407 CHANHASSEN CITY CODE (4) Sedimentation basins for construction projects. 1 (5) Open storage. (6) Animal feedlots. (7) The planting of any species of the genus Lythrum. (8) Operation of motorized craft of all sizes and classifications. (Ord. No. 80, Art. V, § 24(5-24-5), 12-15-86) Sec. 20-408. Prohibited uses in class B wetlands. The following uses are prohibited in class B wetlands: (1) Disposal of waste material including, but not limited to, sewage, demolition debris, hazardous and toxic substances,and all waste that would normally be disposed of at a solid waste disposal site or into a sewage disposal system or sanitary sewer. (2) Solid waste disposal sites, sludge ash disposal sites, hazardous waste transfer or disposal sites. (3) Animal feedlots. – ' (4) The planting of any species of the genus Lythrum (Ord. No. 80, Art. V, § 24(5-24-6), 12-15-86) Sec. 20-409. General development regulations. Within wetland areas and for lands abutting or adjacent to a horizontal distance of ' hundred(200)feet, the following minimum provisions are applicable: two (1) The minimum lot area is fifteen thousand(15,000)square feet. (2) The minimum structure setback is seventy-five(75)feet from the ordinary high water ' mark. (3) Septic and soil absorption system setbacks are two hundred(200)feet from ordinary high water mark. (4) The lowest ground floor elevation is three(3)feet above ordinary high water mark. (5) No development shall be allowed which may result in unusual road maintenance nce costs or utility line breakages due to soil limitation, including high frost action. (Ord. No. 80, Art. V, § 24(5-24-13), 12-15-86) Secs. 20-410-20420. Reserved. 1190 i a) r 1 11 I 0 �, Z ii I 1.11 f I II I I i 1 w ' Q il til Ng u L 0 LC I 0 c NI �� I o 000 I 9� o 1j4 I I I \ \ 95 i,,t $ I� I 95`1•/ I 957 vy.e,ERDSIo„( Cari&L#o i .5 kn\\ 1,4 ad Q EoF WETLAUD / ( 0 997 r w X452) . ��y ��9 N 9'/Sr• �• ra 957r> • �, • 4 � pop a I •• PRCOOS of 0 3/9r a(7�l I .� / �� NODSE q f, ■ W sysz / `Y6x 9 y IA ti' 3 S 1 �� WA X, r;-/.,vo i ; v53,,, I W yl �� /,y-1 9(19.Y 1 W \ P1Rp RDa PROPOSED ELEVATIONS XXX LOWEST FLOOR a y 9 0 (XXX) I s8 �aE GARAGE FLOOR- 9 5/ o\ . ,3 rJ�TA R l sE�ER ♦ FtSfAGonl TOP OF FOUNDATION- 953 33 x9 / I / _t EASE MEAIT 1 _ _ _ q5 ' 3—� NOTE:VERIFY SANITARY SEWEF SETB LIA1 9Y6�' So $ PRIOR TO ANY FOOTING C / �Q� ----- Mi-� •35o9 957,r/ I— . // / LIFT 47A6✓ \ N9SIV • iu• roe/sERJ I \ _ / / I �I 1 1 h AAUN 1 f . Nro�u� i hr7 — — w pweR �3 —� �dH -__—XO YO(E • i [3c_q �r -._._ vvs, z ' I S Pow �• oaI I N------ / �- — �UF}L7 — 1 Wu HOLE J I' I �s i UK WAY- PK��Ic J ti City Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 ir- Councilman Johnson: I think we need a time table. We can talk to Enterprise Property for 2 years and we'd still have a mess back there. Councilman Boyt: Isn't the best time, the best time to seed anyway is in the fall. Don King: Either that or sodding. Councilman Boyt: If we could work out the best time so it's most likely to , survive, that would probably be the time table we'd want to use. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, probably better in the fall now. Councilman Boyt: July and August might not be a very 9 ery good time. Councilman Johnson: The time table I'd be looking at is if we don't have an agreement from Enterprise Properties by say July 15th, that the City go ahead with it or some other date and then we plan it out and the first part of September do it as far as the seeding and whatever goes. As a crew's available. Do the fix up but as you say, planting this time of year is not real great. Mayor Chmiel: It's not great but the other portion is, if Mr. King wants to water the grass or sod, whichever we put in, that's another thing that would have to be done so that could be accomplished now. As far as planting trees, it's not the best time to be planting trees at this particular time although if he were to maintain and water and make sure they get that, then that of course is no real problem. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded that the City work with Enterprise Properties and Don King to landscape the property behind Mr. King's house. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING: VARIANCE TO THE WETLAND SETBACK, DARYL AND DEBRA KIRT, LOCATED AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF KINGS ROAD AND MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY. ( , Jo Ann Olsen: The site is at the corner of Kings Road and Minnewashta Parkway. ei It is an existing lot of record. A little over 6 acres. A majority of the site ,�� is a Class A wetland. The applicant intends to locate a single family residence UJ‘ on the home which they have the right to do. They must receive a variance to the wetland setback. They are maintaining the front yard setback from Minnewashta Parkway and Kings Road and have been working with staff to try to locate the house as far away from the wetland as possible. The proposed plan does do that but still is located at the closest edge at 25 feet away from the wetland. Therefore they need a 50 foot seback. The portion of the wetland that they are going to be close to is the poorer po quality part of the wetland before it gets to the real high quality Class A. We are recommending approval of the variance. We feel there is hardship. Without a variance they will not have use of this site and are recommending approval with two conditions on page 3. { Mayor Chmiel: Is the applicant here? Please state your name and your address. L 11 1 -1 r-'7C; 1 y .'r City Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 IIDaryl Kirt: Daryl Kirt, 7600 Chanhassen Road. We ur_chas p ed the lot over there and we've done everything we can to try to find the most feasible place to put I the house and the garage and it would just make it a lot better site if we could just have a little bit of fill towards the back. We have 5 children and it'd just be nice to have a backyard for them. we've been over there for almost a I year now looking at what would be the best and what Jo Ann showed you is what we think would be the best and the alteration we could do with it. There is a lot of land there but some of it is wetland and we won't even go back to the lake. The lake is 400 or 500 feet even back from where we are before you get to the Ilake and it's basically, I would call it just a mudhole or a little swamp area that we're talking about. It's not the lakeshore or something like that but I realize wetland is important and whatever works out, we'll definitely work with I you. Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to address this? IICouncilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was II closed. ICouncilman Johnson: What was the action of the Board? Councilman Boyt: They didn't review this. IMayor Chmiel: No, the Board did not review this. Jo Ann Olsen: The ordinance states that a variance to the wetland alteration Ipermit is heard by the Council. Councilman Boyt: I'd like to suggest a couple of additions here. I think one II thing that's unique about this and the reason that I can support the variance is because the lot becomes unbuildable without it. Generally that means the City has two choices. We grant the variance with suitable conditions or we buy the property. So not being ready to buy the property, I think we should grant the I variance. I would however, anticipating future problems, I would like you to hold onto this and to come back in with what you think might be a future deck or if you've got some other addition to the building that you think you're going to I want to put on 5-10 years from now, I'd really like to see us approve the whole thing now. The reason for that is because as you may see later on this evening, once your house is, then you no longer have a hardship in my opinion and I think II you're going to have, you may have a very difficult time getting the variance to build that deck at that point. Someone could argue that you probably don't have a hardship for a deck right now but if it was me, I would encourage you to go for the whole thing. IMayor Chmiel: I think it'd be smart, right. I Councilman Boyt: The other. thing I would also state and we' ll see if the rest of the Council would go along with us but clearly it would be my intention to [7 not support future variance requests that would involve the wetland setback but I think this one you've got an awfully good argument for why we should pass it. 1 I'd like to see you put it all in one package. II 12 City Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 37- ��, I Councilman Workman: What would be the rule perhaps on a single lot as far as how much of that lot has to be buildable? What portion of that lot has to be buildable to the point of where we are now in that we have to pretty much allow a person to use the property? Jo Ann Olsen: We don't require a minimal buildable area. We do for unsewered ' lots...but not for sewered lots. Councilman Workman: So if in fact this were a Class B wetland or something, i they could actually fill. Jo Ann Olsen: No, they still have to receive the wetland alteration permit 1 which is what they are pursuing in front of the Planning Commission next time. We would only permit as much as is necessary for them to have a house. Even if it was all Class B, I don't think that we would agree to them filling the whole thing. Councilman Workman: No, but they would then be allowed to fill a portion enough to get a home built. I Jo Ann Olsen: Yes. Councilman Boyt: I think that there's a difference here, if I might suggest something. The difference is if this lot was craning in today, we wouldn't approve it. If they couldn't demonstrate that they could build outside the 75 3 foot setback, we wouldn't approve the lot but. when we approve lots and then go back and change ordinances, we then become obligated to try to make the best use of that lot or allow the owner to make the best use of that lot so that's kind of the difference here. A new lot wouldn't be created but an existing lot has some rights. Councilman Johnson: I totally agree with Bill on the future additions. I don't like the way the second condition is written here. It almost sounds like, come on you can add something later but it's going to require another. variance. I think it needs to be worded differently in the future to where it more or less discourages. Instead of just saying there is going, you are going to require another variance, well you got the variance the first time. Shoot, it's not going to be hard to get the variance the second time but somehow word that to where it shows that any additions will have to show a hardship which there is no hardship. Somehow or another discourage future additions once it's built. I'd like to ask the Kirt's if the design of the house would, I see it's a back walkout I think. Maybe not. It says 40, not WO. If the design of the house, if they're considering putting a deck on in the future. Debra Kirt: Actually. ..as you can see the garage is facing the house. When the surveyor made that, he made a slight error so where the garage is oversized, that is actually a part of the back porch. So in a sense it's already taken on that. .. Councilman Johnson: What do you mean? Jo Ann Olsen: The area that's shown is already including an addition. 13 I city Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 Debra Kirt: The garage, you have 38 feet wide. Mayor Chmiel: I see what you're saying. You have a breezeway inbetween? Debra Kirt: Yes, and that breezeway is actually part of the house and the garage is supposed to be a little bit shorter but then where the garage extends beyond that, beyond the house. Councilman Johnson: To the, is it the southwest? ' Debra Kirt: Yes. So that corner is actually part of the house like a deck, like a porch but it would actually come over where the breezeway is so in a sense it's not going out any farther into the wetland. ' Councilman Johnson: No further than what the garage shows? ' Debra Kirt: Right. Councilman Boyt: So you're saying you've already taken into account my concern. Debra Kirt: Yes. Councilman Boyt: Then I think maybe we could accomplish it Jay by taking the second condition staff has and modifying that to say that it would be this Council's intention to not look favorably upon additional variances to the wetland setback. ' Councilman Johnson: Where's the 25 foot setback from Jo Ann? From that corner of the garage and that's actually not even there. That corner of the garage is not there? Debra Kirt: Yes, that corner is there. Councilman Johnson: But you say the garage isn't going to be that big. Debra Kirt: I see what you're saying. Councilman Johnson: I want to see if I understand what you're saying here on the overhead. From what I'm understanding, this deck, is this going to be your deck in this area then? Debra Kirt: We aren't really going to have a deck. We're going to have an enclosed porch attached to the house that goes to the garage. ' Councilman Johnson: But you're saying it's going to go to this point? Debra Kirt: Yes. ..extend farther west. It goes around the front. ' Councilman Johnson: Is that what we're looking at? Is the garage a full 38 or is it going to be smaller? ' Debra Kirt: It will be somewhere very, very close to that. However, when I was looking at this, there is a porch in front that this doesn't show but that 'still [7: is all the way around and it will connect by the garage there where it says 14 City Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 :1 ,J ' breezeway. Yes... ' Councilman Johnson: Does that mean it extends in this direction? Debra Kirt: No. We designed the house 3 times because everytime we've gone in to try to put a house on the piece of property, we've had such a hard time finding a place for the house to fit within all of the wetland. I bought plans and then we had it all staked out and ready to go and then we decided this is not going to work so then we did another house plan and tried to work that one in and we decided we're not going to do anymore house plans. It gets expensive and frustrating until we know whether we can put the house here. So basically that's the way the house is but it's subject to.. . Councilman Johnson: Okay, as long as we- don't extend that front porch into the ' setback on King Road, I don't see any problem with the deck coming around to the back. It's no closer to the wetland than the garage is. The garage is the closest point. Debra Kirt: The way I understand it, we still have room coming out towards the lift station. Out this way towards the lift station, we have room to play with ' in that direction. Councilman Johnson: You can come out front as long as you don't cross those two lines there. Councilwoman Dimler: I guess one of my concerns was that I don't like building real close to the lake but I assume that you still have enough of the wetland there that is an adequate filter to the lake. Is that correct? Councilman Johnson: 507 feet. I Councilman Boyt: Willard wanted to comment. Willard Johnson: I would go along with Bill. I would discourage some future ' variance. It would save the applicant time and us time, whoever's on the board in the future of going through this process... Councilwoman Dimler: Roger, would it be alright to put some stronger language in there and say that any addition to the garage or home in the required setback will require an additional variances but they will not be granted? ' Roger Knutson: I think you can express the sentiment of this Council but you can't prevent them from applying and you can't tie the hands of a future Council. You could say something to the effect that it would not be favorably considered by this Council. Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, I know what you said. I just wanted to make it a little stronger because we're facing, these people were very upset with me out there today because we didn't grant the variances and I'm sorry but it was people that okayed the PUD and blah, blah, blah you know. They can't accept that. They say show me where it can' t be done and that would be one way to say that. } 15 , ,City Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 Roger Knutson: It certainly would. You could say by that b granting this 9 9 particular variance, the Council has now given them reasonable use of the property. Therefore, this Council no further variances would be warranted and none would be granted by this Council. It's a statement of sentiment rather than because that's all you really can do. ' Councilwoman Dimler: So we can't do anything that would be binding is what you're saying? Roger Knutson: No. Councilwoman Dimler: Then I would prefer the language that we had before. Mayor Chmiel: Which one? Councilwoman Dimler: That it would not be looked upon favorably. Councilman Boyt: I think we have a motion then, or if we don't n t I would make a motion to approve Variance Request #89-7 with two conditions. The second condition be reworded to indicate that this Council would not favor additional requests for variances. I would also, and maybe add a third condition, that a correct survey be presented to the City prior to the issuance of a building ' permit. Clearly this one isn't right. Councilman Workman: Since the deck which is not going to be built yet, is going to be as far away as the garage is, that's really not a variance situation later on? Jo Ann Olsen: When they don't increase. Councilman Johnson: The 25 feet's at the edge of the garage. At the house, it's probably more closer to 50 feet so if we say they can build up to 25 feet ' from there, they could build a 25 foot deck out from the back of the house and I don't think that's our intent. I think we need to say within the 38 foot envelope running frorn the front face of the house back which gives than roan for a 10 foot deck on the back of the house. ' Councilman Boyt: That's may reason for asking for a proper survey to be submitted so that we know what it's fixed at. That's what we're really saying. ' Let's get the house print fixed on the property and assuming that it's not encroaching on the wetland more than what we're approving tonight then I think it's in good shape. Mayor Chmiel: I think that would be agreeable to the applicant? Councilman Johnson: What I'm trying to do, I'm not trying to be difficult here ' but as you say, it won't encroach anymore on the wetlands. They're got 25 feet that they go from the back of the house towards the wetland and not encroach on the wetland. They could build a 25 foot wide deck on the back of there. Councilman Boyt: The way I would approve it is if they have a house print and that gives them a certain amount of encroachment on the wetland but that doesn't mean they can scribe an arc and fill in everything inbetween. It's the house print. ' 16 _L d' City Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 Councilman Johnson: Right but the house print's not shown quite here. That's why I was trying to add that 10 foot condition to the back which is what they're saying is they're going to have basically a 10 foot wide deck on half the back of their house. Debra Kirt: I'm not planning... , Councilman Johnson: Something's going to run around the back of the house 10 foot? ' Debra Kirt: It's a porch but it just extends off that 32 feet. Mayor Chmiel: Your porch might be our deck or vica versa. Councilman Johnson: A slab of concrete? Debra Kirt: No, like there's a walkout so we can't, well. Councilman Johnson: If you want to put a slab of concrete down, that's a permanent structure, it's part of the house. Councilman Boyt: Rather than designing the piece of property tonight, couldn't we say that this is our intent and if you vary from that, then come back to us. Mayor Chmiel: Right. I have a motion. Is there a second? Councilman Johnson: I'll second it. I liked the City Attorney's wording on item 2 by saying that by granting of this variance provides reasonable use of the property and then add that at the beginning of condition 2. I move that as a modification. Councilman Boyt: Why don't we just accept what Roger has. Councilman Johnson: I move to modify the motion to add the sentence that granting of this variance provides reasonable use of the property at the beginning of condition 2. ' Councilman Boyt: But that's not all. We can' t leave condition 2 the way it is. Councilman Johnson: Well your condition 2. ' Councilman Boyt: Alright. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Wor_knan seconded to approve Variance Request #89-7 to permit a single family residence to be located 25 feet from the edge of a Class A wetland as shown on the Site Plan dated "June 21, 1989" with the following conditions: 1. 'Type III erosion control as shown on the site plan will be installed prior ' to any alteration of the site. 17 Council Meeting - June 26, 1989 2. Granting of this variance provides reasonable use of the property and it is the intent of this Council that any future variance requests would not. be looked upon with favor. 3. A correct survey be presented to the City prior to issuance of a building permit. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF KENNEL PERMIT APPLICATION, 1630 LAKE LUCY ROAD, PHIL MATHIOWETZ. Jim Chaffee: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council, you may remember that this item was tabled same time ago. I think it was last council meeting so that both the applicant and the concerned neighbor could be present to address the issue. You'll note on my comments that the issues remain the same. We did sane ' checking of the surrounding neighborhood as requested by City Council. There is a memo from our CSO officer Bob Zydowsky indicating that he checked with certain residences. We did receive two written responses in favor of the permit, or not opposing it and we did receive two from concerned neighbors indicating that they ' may have a problem if in fact they did live closer. Public Safety's recommendations have not changed in light of these concerns. I believe that the issue here is not really one of a kennel permit but one of whether or not there ' is a nuisance involved. If there is we in fact can handle it through our existing ordinances as we do hundreds of other nuisance complaints regarding barking dogs. If I can digress a little bit from my comments in my memo to the Council, but if in fact the kennel permit is not issued to Windwalker Kennels, ' he still can keep 2 dogs on his property. These 2 dogs could bark as Mr. Krueger has indicated they do in the past. There still could be the clanging if metal dishes. The yelling at the dogs to keep quiet. We can handle all of those things under our existing nuisance ordinance. Whether or not Windwalker Kennels gets the permit does not change the fact that there may be a problem there for Mr. Krueger and we in Public Safety do not turn a deaf ear to ' Mr. Krueger's problems. We just need some factual information so we can handle it through our proper nuisance ordinance. Our recommendation to the council tonight is to approve the kennel permit to Windwalker Kennels keeping in mind that the remedies to Mr. Krueger will remain the same. Contact us. Contact the ' Sheriff's Department as other people do with problems with barking dogs. We will issue a citation if we can verify that there is a problem. ' Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I guess I just have a couple questions that I'd like to ask of you Jim. Being this is within a residential area, issuing a kennel license which means constitutes 3 dogs or more. Is that correct? IJim Chaffee: That is correct. Mayor Chmiel: When does this constitute a business of raising dogs and having litters within that residential segment? Would that now rather than residential it goes to commercial because it is a business that's being conducted per se. ' Jim Chaffee: I would like to defer to Roger's opinion on that one. I guess your question is when or is it a commercial kennel is what it boils down to or when does it become a commercial kennel. Roger, could you answer that? 18 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING I JULY 5, 1989 Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7 : 35 p.m. . ' MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings, Ladd Conrad, Brian Batzli an David Headla MEMBERS ABSENT: Annette Ellson and Jim Wi.ldermuth STAFF PRESENT: Jo Ann Olsen, Asst. City Planner PUBLIC HEARING: WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT FOR FILLING IN A PORTION OF A CLASS A WETLAND ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF KINGS ROAD AND MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY, DARYL KIRT. I Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report. Chairman Conrad call the public hearing to order . Daryl Kitt : . . .we' ve been looking at this for close to a year trying to find a location. . . The wetland, the lake is actually quite a ways back . It ' s a small body of water , maybe a pond size or something . We feel that, this is the most logical site which will have. . . for a backyard . . . Erhart moved , Batzli seconded to close the public hearing . All voted in II favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed . Headla : I watched that particular part over the last 20-25 years just gradually fill in. That whole corner at one time was pretty low. I 'm very interested in not to see that go much further but if those people build a house there, what are their obligations to maintain that wetland? ' Olsen : Again , they' re under the regulations . They would have to go through another wetland alteration permit if they wanted to fill anymore II which they would have a difficult time getting . They have setbacks that they have to maintain. They received the variance for the single family residence because without that it would not be a buildable lot . Headla: What about in the summer time if they would want to put a boardwalk over that wetland? Is that a problem? Olsen: They couldn' t do it without a wetland alteration permit . Headla : How about in the wintertime running snowmobiles through there out to Little Joe? Olsen : There ' s nothing to prevent that . Headla : Whatever happens here, maintaining the wetland or we,call attention to it so it ' s registered with the deed . Do you have that in place? ' 1 Planning Commission Meeting July 5, 1989 - Page 2 Olsen : The ' wetland alteration permit is recorded against- the A ro ert . Headla: Okay, so the next person who buys the property, they would be exposed to that? ' Olsen: As is the variance. ' Headla : What they seem to have is pretty reasonable. The one thing that bothers me, what' s a Type III erosion control barrier? Olsen: That' s the heavy duty one. It' s got the silt fence, the hay bales and the snow fence. Headla : But that ' s temporary. What I 'm scared is a gradual growing , ' encroachment onto that wetland. Not in 6 months or 9 months but over a period of 5 years , 10 years . Did you consider having a more permanent erosion control barrier there? Olsen : I don' t know if you can be any more permanent. They always deteriorate over time. You could, if you want, to whoever buys the property knows where the edge of the wetland is , you could have them put some stakes in just like some markers . Headla : How about even some treated timbers , 8 x 8 ' s? The runoff will not go directly into the wetland. At least it will hit this barrier first. It ' s kind of a borderline. It ' s very definitive and that ' s kind of what , I 'm looking for 2 things . To have a definitive line and some type of more ' permanent barrier . Olsen : It fluctuates . It could come up closer to the house too depending on the amount of rain we would get. That would be hard to put a set border . Headla : I just want to bring those points up. That ' s all I have. I think ' this gentleman wanted something . Daryl Kirt : The wetland actually dries up. The wetland . . . ' Batzli : How much wetland are they actually filling in here Jo Ann? We've said minimal but . ' Olsen : It was I 'd say a tenth of an acre . It ' s a very small amount . Batzli : A tenth of an acre? ' Olsen : Yes , it ' s very small . Batzli : Just a general question and it might not pertain to this case. Last meeting we had we discussed at great length no net loss for wetlands in the City of Chanhassen . We don ' t discuss that at all here, Is that because this is already a lot of record so you can ' t make them upgrade even ' though it' s already a Class A wetland? If this had been a Class B wetland , could you have said to them no you have to dredge it out and make it a i - Planning Commission Meeting July 5, 1989 - Page 3 better wetland? Olsen : This one, really it was a Class A and it' s really in good shape that ' s remaining . This edge part was marginal because it had been filled in the past. That was , there was really nothing to go in and improve it because then you would really be making it possibly harming it by going in and trying to improve it. One of the reasons we did allow them to fill in a portion was to allow them to have an area because it was a lot of record, We did not see where it needed to be improved. Batzli : But in this particular instance , you couldn' t have made them improve it because it was a lot of record even if you wanted to? Olsen : No , we could have. Batzli : You could have? Olsen : Even without the wetland alteration permit, it doesn' t necessarily' mean that they wouldn ' t be able to build their house. It helps with the foundation and just gives them a little bit of a backyard . Batzli : Well I ' ll have to admit that I did not get to this particular sit' so I don ' t know what the wetland looks like but I get the feeling might have down at that end. My only other question was, we've also in the past talked about letting a portion of what we filled in or what have you go back to natural vegetation. We don' t talk about that at all here. I thin something Dave was getting at was talking about runoff and kind of a first barrier. Are you proposing that we allow them to grow grass and mow it down to where the erosion control is installed? Olsen: When we met out on the site and discussed the fill in, it was our understanding between the applicant that that would become their lawn. in Their back yard . Batzli : And that was discussed with the DNR, Fish and Wildlife? Olsen: Fish and Wildlife . Batzli : And they thought that was appropriate or at least minimally ' disturbed? Olsen : Yes, they were not upset with that at all . They felt that that wall a good compromise. Again, if you haven' t been out there, it ' s just a real small area that they' re filling . They will actually be improving it somewhat because there' s garbage and stuff thrown in there and they' re cleaning that out. Emmings: I don ' t have any questions . My only comment is that it seems to me they certainly have a right to build in here and I think they' ve done all lot to try to minimize your impact on the wetland and it look$ like the staff' s done a lot of work with them in trying to decide what' s reasonable in the situation and I don ' t have any problems with it . ' 1 Planning Commission Meeting July 5, 1989 - Page 4 lip. Erhart : How big is that lot above the ordinary high water mark? ' Y g Olsen: It' s almost 6 1/2 acres all together . ' Erhart: The whole lot? - Olsen : Right , the whole lot and then the area above the ordinary high water mark is just that small corner . It' s just a corner. The wetland goes all the way. Erhart : Is it 15, 000 square feet? ' Olsen: I don' t know. There' s not that much below it. ' Erhart : How far is it from the lot corner edge to where the edge of the fill would be? ' Olsen : They' re meeting all the front yard setbacks . Their property line is shown in the darker. The corner has the lift station so that. . . Erhart : It looks like about 10, 000 square feet . Even though it ' s 6 acres , the buildable area is pretty small . Olsen : There ' s no question about that . ' Erhart: So we' re trying to make it bigger and, well . I guess what I 'd like to see done here and I really don' t have any problem with them building a house and the commissioners who live in the area don' t appear to have any problem but in light I guess of our acceptance of just recently the concept of no net loss of wetland and as a suggestion of something nice is to mitigate what you' re doing by actually, when you have the equipment in there, to actually build a pond. If you have the equipment in there, it' s fairly easy to do . Olsen: There ' s open water already there . Erhart : Yes , and generally that ' s the kind of thing that we ' ve been asking for in return to fill is to improve a wetland and taking a cattail area or ' Class B area , a nice improvement is simply opening up a small little pond and it's surprising the amount of wildlife you' ll get in even a pond of 50 feet square. In looking right out the back of your house , a nice amenity ' to boot so I guess I 'm okay with this but I 'd sure like to see that done. I think it would be a nice amenity and I think also keep us in conformity in what we ' re trying to put in place in the City here. That ' s my only ' comment. Conrad : When we grant a variance or wetland alteration permit Jo Ann , is that line registered on the plat or how do we document where that wetland alteration can be? Olsen : We' ve got it on file and then we record it . Conrad: It ' s recorded on the plat? 1 - Planning Commission Meeting July 5, 1989 - Page 5 C Olsen: Right . And we have a description that we use from that lot. An I elevation. Conrad : So in the future there' s a way to go in and make sure that it' s II not bigger than what we originally granted? Olsen : Right and we always had the official copy that we can go back to. II Conrad: So it' s on staff documents. Where else is it? Olsen: The wetland alteration permit, what was permitted and any conditions is always recorded with the property so is the variance. What we depend on to find out if they did fill more in the years ahead is the official copy of the survey. Conrad : I agree with Tim on this one . Class A, it seems like we ' re treating this differently than every other one that we've talked about recently and I think staff has done a good job of reviewing other wetlands' and making sure that as we tamper with them, we improve. Here' s a case where because the wetland seems so big and the parcel so small , we have sort of ignored that policy. I think we' re all trying to relate to Mr . an, Mrs . Kirt in wanting to build there and we appreciate what they want to do. Yet on the other hand , what we' re doing is filling in a Class A wetland. In light of what we' ve been doing , I just haven' t been sold that they can I build there without filling in. I 'm just looking for , the only reason I have is what Tim volunteered is to improve it with a pond but I really, as much as I want to figure out how to make this happen, it' s a Class A I wetland and the only thing that I ' ve heard is that there ' s been a dumping ground there before but still then that means there' s a way to improve it if it' s been a dumping ground of other stuff so I guess I 'm just plain not sold. Yet I 'm real receptive to wanting to be sold on this because I 'm no' sure that there ' s going to be a real harmful impact yet how do I look at this Jo Ann in light of all the stuff that you 've been processing in front of us . ' Olsen : When we go out on the sites , the first thing Paul and I look at is well can it be improved . This is , what they' re doing is just a real small area . They' re kind of filling in an area that kind of comes in and they' r� just cutting that. Filling that little part off. The better wetland is just starts here and it' s the lower kind of an even existing kind of a pon area. Then it gets a little bit higher and then you have the wetland that ' s adjacent right to Lake St . Joe . Anyway, one of the things we alway look at is well if they fill in a portion, how can we improve the rest but this is one that you just don ' t. . . 1 Conrad : So it ' s a loss . Basically what you' re saying is there ' s no way to improve it. It' s a definite loss . Olsen : It ' s a very minor loss but yes , there ' s really no reason to improv any of the rest farther out. 1 Planning Commission Meeting July 5, 1989 - Page 6 1 - Conrad : And how does that fly in the face of our ordinance? The ordinance says philosophy is no loss. I think we' re easily persuaded in a B wetland but here we ' re talking an A. I 'm just looking for a way to rationalize. Be consistent. Mrs. Kirt, do you have something to say? ' Mrs . Kirt : I 'm not disagreeing at all with what you' re saying . The only thing I want to sat at this point is what you' re asking for is something ' that we ' ve already considered doing but I think what you' re asking for is going to take a little more extensive work because you' re going to have to start 600 or 700 feet down and start excavating this area out . You can ' t just go in there because this water only comes seasonally with rain because there ' s a drainage ditch underneath the road from the field across the street from us. So in the spring when it thaws or like this summer when we' ve had quite a bit of rain, there is this water that comes over here and ' it sits and then it stagnates until finally it dries up. What you have, like I say, it starts 700 feet down so you have to bring it, excavate all of that 700 feet down. All the way down to where you' re going to build a ' house before it would improve the land because it just isn ' t all there. . . and I wouldn' t see how it would really improve the property. It would be nice to do that at a point . . . to do the extensive work and do it correctly. If you can' t do it right, I don' t see any point to doing it at this time. If you go into the area and you look at the area that Jo Ann has been trying to explain, there' s no cattails basically. There' s cattails out along the , the only place there ' s cattails is going up and down Minnewashta Parkway beyond where we ' re going to build . There ' s cattails there and the ' area we' re talking about filling is . . .just grass and when it dries up there, the only thing that grows there is grass . ' Erhart : Is that correct that there is no cattails up to where you' re proposing the edge of the fill right now? ' Mrs. Kirt : The cattails are all where it says Minnewashta Parkway. Emmings : Where on the map? ' Erhart : Can you also show on there the area that you see that ' s going to be filled . ' Emmings : Where ' s the edge of what ' s already filled in? Olsen: This is the edge of the wetland is this dark line. That' s the existing edge of the wetland . Emmings : So that ' s what ' s being filled in is from there out to the next ' line? Olsen : It comes in , you can ' t see the contour but it kind of comes up in here and this is where it has started . . . It' s kind of on a hill and then right here is where it gets into the nicer wetland . Conrad: Is it really an A wetland Jo Ann? Olsen : This? 1 - Planning Commission Meeting July 5, 1989 - Page 7 (7 Conrad : No , the one that we' re filling? 1 Olsen: It' s all continuous. If it was all by itself, it would definitely be a B. This is an edge of an A but I would still consider it a wetland . II It's all one. That' s what I always look for is if it doesn' t need to be done or improvements but this one is just . . . Conrad: Dave, did you have a point? Headla : I started to think about the line you were pursuing and the land ,' the 32 acres to the north I think is part of it. That's going to be developed shortly. There' s going to be a lot of homes in there and where Mrs. Kirt talked about that drainage in the road, that' s going to be a major drainage for that area . It really is just a natural drainage and maybe someone, either the Village or we should, I certainly agree with you I think maybe there should be some type of pond there or something holding it and it doesn' t have to be right next to their house or anything. Even if it' s a little further back in but that could be a tremendous catch basil! for all that runoff of all the different ponds. You' re draining I would guess , my land drains in there and part of the other so I would guess you' re draining a good 30 acres . Conrad : Jo Ann, so how do we justify this? It ' s flying contrary to our ordinance. You' re saying staff agrees with it. I don' t think anybody is I hostile against what they' re doing but on the other. hand , I don' t know how to justify. How do we justify it? Under what pretense? The fact that there is no degregation? The fact that the runoff is not going to be any less harmful? Any more harmful? Right now the staff report doesn' t give us any reason to justify this other than it ' s minor compared to the 6 acres yet it' s still a net impact . Olsen : That ' s not why because I compared it to the 6 acres . It' s more that this is an existing lot of record. They could have come in and said we want to put in a house twice as big and filled it in. The reason that I they' re not right on top of the wetland and filling it in, you ' re taking the position then that they don' t need it . We ' ve worked with them to have as minimal amount of fill but still give them a lot that gives them some use other than just the house pad . I Conrad : You' re saying it' s a reasonable expectation on their part to be able to fill in because it is a lot of record? ' Olsen : I 'm not saying that they would have had the right to fill it in but we have, I can ' t say that there' s no net loss . There is a net loss . ' Conrad : Forget about the 20 feet that ' s filling in. Is there going to be a net impact? What is the impact of filling that in? How much water drains over their property and into the wetland? Olsen: I can' t tell you how much but it definitely does drain over their property into the wetland . ' 1 Planning Commission Meeting July 5, 1989 - Page 8 ' Conrad : I would assume not much is draining over their property right? Olsen: Not in that area . ' Conrad : Which way is the water flowing , just out of curiousity? Daryl Kirt: South. Headla : The road in front will catch most of that . Very little water comes right off their property. ' Olsen : I can go out there. Paul is gone for a month in Alaska but we can go back out. He's working on the oil spill. I hesitate to make certain improvements to it until I can guarantee that those are definitely ' improvements. Conrad : I 'm just looking for some way to rationalize this Jo Ann . It' s not Paul Burke going out and saying something. I don' t need him. He' s been out there a couple times I assume already right? Daryl Kirt: The DNR was out there and did a report , maybe if you want to ' read that . Emmings : What ' s the bottom line of what they say? Daryl Kirt: They say they wouldn' t have any objections to even two lots . . . they just don ' t want the lakeshore damaged . ' Emmings : We ' re meaner than they are. I tell you, this won ' t be a very popular opinion for the people I 'm talking to up here tonight but I ' ll tell you how I 'd rationalize this one. It just plain seems reasonable number one and number two , it ' s too damn small to worry about . That ' s the way I feel about it. If I 'm going to have, we either say to them it seems to me, build your house there and I 'm sorry your backyard isn ' t neat as it comes ' up to the wetland . They seem to be kind of filling in a hole and making a nice smooth edge along there . We either say go ahead and build your house there and you' re going to have to live with that raw edge or let them fill it in and round it off and I think that that ' s a perfectly reasonable thing ' to do. I don ' t need any more justification than that. Obviously there' s a net loss to the wetland which I think is essentially insignificant because it' s so small . That ' s the way I looked at it. ' Conrad : Dave brought out some point and that point was erosion , the permanent erosion control . After the bales or we string whatever , when we ' do the landfill , Jo Ann do you feel that on the long term basis there is no need? You basically said there was no need for permanent erosion control because you don ' t feel there is erosion going across that land . Any water . ' Olsen: Once it ' s all stabilized , no I don ' t. Again, I don' t know if there is anything permanent . I know that we have more trouble with,erosion control breaking down and going into the wetland and not being properly maintained so I would not be in favor of. . . 1 - Planning Commission Meeting .' July 5, 1989 - Page 9 II Conrad : Would you ever put fertilizing restrictions on a house this clos Olsen: Sure you can. 1 Conrad : But you haven ' t volunteered that? I Olsen: It ' s just that who' s to say if they do it or not. I Emmings moved , Headla seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Wetland Alteration Permit #89-6 as shown on the site plan Istamped "June 23, 1989" subject to the following conditions : 1. Type III erosion control shall be installed as shown on the site plan. 2. The applicant shall receive a permit from DNR and the Corps of ' Engineers . All voted in favor except Conrad who was silent and the motion carried I unanimously. Conrad : My only comment is, you can hear we ' re sensitive to what you want I to do. We' re also real sensitive to the wetlands and I think you' re doing a good job out there from what we can tell . We ' d really appreciate it if I i you'd keep that sensitivity. Whether it be through your own personal vigilance or whatever on that site . It seems like you are and that' s why I 'm kind of comfortable. We spent far longer on this one than I thought would but it' s also a case of where we have so many of these coming in tha we treat them like they' re going to have an influence on the next couple and the next couple and Chanhassen is just filled with wetlands that we' re trying to preserve as you can tell . They' re a really important resource s' sorry for keeping you here a little bit long but I think it' s an important issue. Mrs. Kirt: . . . I 'm going to try to keep it natural around there. I Conrad: Now see if you would have said that before I probably would have voted . That ' s important . II Mrs. Kirt: We like it natural . Headla : Normally loons stop in that lake coming and going north . This is the first year since I ' ve lived out there I ' ve seen loons , I just heard it the night of the 3rd and early the morning of the 4th . It' s the first yea' that they' ve been nesting there. Conrad : They' re nesting? Headla : I 'm hearing them through the year now. Are you the ones who put II in the dock in Minnewashta? Daryl Kirt : No . I 1 I . . la CITY, OF CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 1 s (612) 937-1900 1 MEMORANDUM 1 TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager FROM: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner . DATE: August 10, 1989 SUBJ: SuperAmerica Site The applicant, SuperAmerica, called staff on August 10, 1989, and stated that the illuminated canopy and building stripe will be turned off immediately. Once the shopping center or berm and ' landscaping are in place, the applicant may wish to have the City Council review the issue to see if the striping could then be illuminated. Staff left the item on the agenda so the City 1 Council could still comment if they wished to and so the appli- cant would have clear direction from the Council as to what is or may be permitted. 1 r 1 1 1 1 1 1 11 I 1 1 1 I 1 I I I I I I I I I I I 1 1 , . CITY OF 1 i , ._._ CHANHASSEN -\ 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 1 . _ (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM Action by Ctty Adminr t�t iuF' IITO: Don Ashworth, City Manager %n±arse ✓ •A* FROM: Jo Ann Olsen, Senior Planner ,&-b) C te-... 7,• I -k` 1 DATE: August 9, 1989 Dot: sa,t•i,,:rd to Commissica Gate Sub.mrteii to Coae-lj \ 1 SUBJ: Illuminated Stripe on Building and Canopy at the - 11-0 SuperAmerica Site - Hwy. 7/41 p --r- II The gas canopy and building located on the SuperAmerica site at the corner of Highways 41 and 7 has the SuperAmerica stripe and is illuminated. During the conditional use permit process, it 1 was always staff' s understanding that they could have the SA stripe but that the stripe could not be illuminated. A condition of approval of the conditional use permit specifically states I that there should be no gas canopy signage. The fact that the stripe around the canopy and building is now illuminated makes it act more like signage. The applicant has stated that they had intended on having it lit and felt that this had been clear to 1 staff and the Council. Since there is a misunderstanding between staff and the applicant I as to what is permitted on the canopy, staff recommended that the issue be brought in front of the City Council . Staff' s original position was that the illumination of the stripe on the canopy 1 and building had to be removed prior to receiving the certificate of occupancy, but then felt that the applicant had the right to be heard by the Council to have a final determination made. Therefore, staff issued the certificate of occupancy on the con- 1 dition that the issue of the illumination of the stripe around the canopy and building would be reviewed by the City Council. 1 RECOMMENDATION Staff is recommending that the City Council determine whether or 1 not the striping around the canopy and building should be per- mitted to remain illuminated or whether the illumination should be removed. IATTACHMENTS 1. City Council minutes dated October 10 , 1988 . 1 2 . Letter from the applicant dated July 17 , 1989 . 3 . Letter from Jo Ann Olsen dated July 18, 1989. I 1.2 e Y II City Council Meeting - _ober 10, 1988 Fred Hoisington: Yes. As we did in the first . I rst �.nstance. Acting Mayor Geving: It's no different than the McDonalds issue or Sinclair or ii anybody else. These are all economic impacts that I'm sure Fred is aware of. I'm not going to open this up for further discussion. This is not an open discussion item. The City Council is in command and I think that we've given II you the direction that you need. There's no direction needed here tonight. There's no motion and if you're comfortable with that Fred, we'll move on to the next item. II SUPERAMERICA, LOCATED AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF TH 7 AND TH 41: A. CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT REQUEST TO PERMIT GAS PUMPS ON PROPERTY ZONED BN II, NEIGHBORHOOD BUSINESS DISTRICT. • B. SIGN VARIANCE REQUEST TO ALLOW A 45 SQ. FT. GROUND LOW PROFILE SIGN INSTEAD II OF THE PERMITTED 24 SQ. FT. GROUND LOW PROFILE SIGN. C. SITE PLAN APPROVAL FOR A 3,200 SQ. FT. CONVENIENCE STORE. I Jo Ann Olsen: The applicant is requesting a conditional use permit to be used I for gas pumps. They are also going through a site plan review and then a sign variance. I'll just cover all three real briefly. The Planning Commission recommended approval of the conditional use permit and the site plan. They did table it to resolve certain issues such as traffic, access from TH 7 with approval by MnDot, lighting of the site, hours of operation, what would happen if there were accidents with the gas. When the Planning Commission reviewed it a second time, all of the issues had been addressed by the applicant. Staff II feels that they were adjusted adequately and that it still met the standard conditions and specific conditions for a convenience store with gas pumps. It was recommended with approval and the additional conditions by the Planning II Commission. Staff is recommending approval of the conditional use permit and the site plan. Do you want me to go through the sign variance now? Acting Mayor Geving: Let's take one issue at a time. II Jo Ann Olsen: The applicants are here. Acting Mayor Geving: What's your pleasure Council? Should we hear from the II developer first or do you have comments that you'd like to discuss? Maybe it'd be best if we heard from the developer because this is the first time we've heard this issue in front of the Council. So let's hear from the developer and II we'll take it from there. Would you come before us please and state your name and what's being proposed. If you have pictorials or sketches, we'd like to see them. II Randy Peterson: Should we stick with the conditional use permit? Acting Mayor Geving: I'd like to have you stay with one issue at a time please. :1[Randy Peterson: I'm Randy Peterson. I am with the development team for the SA, SuperAmerica Station. We do have SuperAmeri.ca people here. We also have Ed 36 I City Council Meeting ctober 10, 1988 IIHasek from Wan and Associates to answer any questions that you may have there and also Dave Koskee here to answer any traffic issues you have. We're putting in basically a new type of station, design wise. That's getting into more of II the site plan. I'll open it up for questions that anyone has and answer them as best we can. IActing Mayor Geving: Let's see your pictorials first. Let's see your sketches. What's being proposed here. It's very difficult to divorce the site plan with the conditional use in my view and it's very difficult to separate those things 1 out without seeing the station that's being proposed and we'll take it from there. IRandy Peterson: Do you want to see the total site plan? Acting Mayor Geving: I would like to see the total site plan. The one that was approved originally and where this fits on the site because we do have the two I items coming before us, the conditional use permit and the site plan. I'd like to look at the conditional use permit but I need to look at the site to get a reference. IRandy Peterson: This is a new prototype of their new building that they are building. You probably can address the building issues better than I can. IActing Mayor Geving: Go ahead. You've got the floor. Randy Peterson: And we're locating it right here on the corner of TH 7 and TH I 41 with an access coming in off of TH 7, routing it through the pump areas to allow the cars to easily flow into here and then back out onto TH 41. We've got the parking as it stands in front of the station and the employee parking off to Ithe side. Councilman Johnson: In our approval of the HSZ we were told and in one place II within this document it says that the deceleration lane for entering this site was going to be extended all the way back to Oriole. However, in the drawing of the site, it does not show that happening. I Randy Peterson: I'm not familiar with their development. Roger? Is that correct? IRoger Zahn: It goes all the way back to Oriole. Councilman Johnson: I want to make sure that when the people come out on Oriole, that they've got now an acceleration lane for merging traffic. Right 1 now they have nothing. It's right out onto TH 7 and 60 mph semis. I want them to get a benefit out of this and that benefit beyond the left turn lane coming in is that right acceleration lane going out. Since it wasn't on the drawing, I Ihad a concern there. Roger Zahn: Roger Zahn, HSZ Development. We want that too and it absolutely ilk is in the plan. Both the acceleration lane extending out from Oriole. The left turn lane into Oriole. A by-pass lane on both sides of TH 41 are all in the plan and are all going to be built. p., Councilman Johnson: Their figure from Barton didn't show that. II 37 14 y r II City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 1 Roger Zahn: In the current version, it is in there. Councilman Boyt: While Roger's up there, can we ask him more questions? Acting Mayor Geving: Jay, do you have more? Councilman Johnson: That was my primary. They seem to be meetin g most mo of the conditions, all of the conditions of the conditional use and beyond that, as we've been told by our Attorney many times, when they meet the conditions to get a conditional use, it's very difficult to arbitrarily say no, you can't do that based on because we don't like you or something. Or based on a petition from the neighborhood that they don't like them. If they meet the rules, we have to play by our own rules. They seem to be very cooperative of staff. Giving staff what they need and we're not dragging them in here kicking and hollering like some developers do. Councilman Horn: The analogy of this one to the SuperAmerican on TH 4 and TH 5 came to me even before I read Dave Headla's comments about it. I think that it was a very good one. It put the whole thing in perspective. But the difference I see here is the fact that on this one, not only do we have a SuperAmerica Station using that route but we've also got a shopping center using that route. The other thing I noticed that's different is that TH 4 at that point turns into a four lane road to handle that type of intersection. I'm wondering if there's any plans to make TH 41 a four lane road to handle this type of thing. I didn't see that. Roger Zahn: Yes, there's by-passes on both sides. !! Councilman Horn: But there will be full four lanes on TH 41? 1 Roger Zahn: Well, there's a by-pass at the point of the, right here. There's a by-pass here and here and there's a right turn in here. Councilman Horn: And how many lanes are going up to that intersection light? 11 Between TH 41 and TH 7 coming from the south? Two lanes or is that four lanes ? Roger Zahn: -Here there are two lanes. There is a widening here for acceleration going up and there's a by-pass on this side. So in effect, I suppose that... Councilman Horn: The intersection is two. Councilman Boyt: Up north where it hits TH 7. Roger Zahn: Up at the stop light? Councilman Horn: Yes. Roger Zahn: At the stop light, depending on which way you're going, there's the free right if you're going to head east. qf Councilman Horn: If you're going straight, it doesn't narrow down to two lanes? 38 , 15 I ' City Council Meeting Cctober 10, 1988 Roger Zahn: Two lanes but keeping in mind that on the southbound side, we are widening this just barely around the corner and making it in fact three. I F Councilman Horn: That's my biggest concern in this whole thing is how the traffic is going to move through there because I don't believe the one at TH 4 ' and TH 5 works all that well. It seems like there's a lot of congestion coming in in that area by SuperAmerica. ' Roger Zahn: If I may, traffic flow around this site has been our major concern from day one. I don't want a site that does not work from a traffic flow standpoint. I don't want a project where people, customers, shoppers, get in ' and can't get out or have trouble getting in or have trouble getting by because that development in the long run is going to fail and we have engaged three consultants. Some of the best people in the business. Dahlberg, Shardlow and Man. We've engaged Barton Aschman and the other guy slips my mind. Three ' separate traffic consultants to look at this intersection and make it work. We had a traffic study done that was very thorough and it works. When we asked those people, that question wasn't, give us something to show that it works. It ' was tell us if there are any problems. Plus staff, plus MnDot, plus our own architects have all looked at it, all being experts in, our own staff, experts in retail and they all say it works fine with the additions that we've done. And we have been concerned about it. If anybody, if any of the engineers, if any ' staff people, if any of those consultants had raised a red flag and said that traffic at that point is not going to work, we would have stopped and done something different. They've all told us it will. Eli Councilman Horn: Put it in perspective. Do they think the one on TH 4 and TH 5 works? ' Roger Zahn: I didn't really ask them that question. I asked them if this would. Councilman Horn: The other issue I had, this is maybe putting my hat on the other side, I noticed a lot of problem with dispensing deisel fuel here. The one on TH 4 and TH 5 dispenses deisel fuel and I happen to drive a car that ' takes deisel gas and I think it's ridiculous to think that there should be a restriction on selling deisel fuel at this site. Environmentally, noise wise, I don't think there's any reason to do that. First of all, semis aren't going to come in there and fuel up anyway. Any size truck that takes deisel fuel, it ' also.. .so they're going to have the same line going in. I don't understand why that's a restriction on this. Maybe someone on the Planning Commission could help me out on that but I couldn't see the logic. Roger Zahn: I don't want to speak for anybody else but I think it was something that was regarding trucks stopping. ' Councilman Horn: Semis don't stop at SuperAmericas for deisel fuel. One of the other items I had was, it was somewhat addressed in here, the type of construction of the tanks. Just recently it's become painfully apparent to us that there's a problem with underground seepage in these fuel tanks and quite frankly I'm much more concerned about that than I am of any surface spi.ljage x that could happen. You say you've got some type of coating on these tanks, what ' precludes them from an underground leak? ' 39 City Council Meeting - GLober 10, 1988 II Roger Zahn: I'm not the right person to answer that. There is somebody here from SuperAmerica that can tell you about that... il Acting Mayor Geving: Are we satisfied that you've got your questions answered? Councilman Horn: I don't know who answers which. I Acting Mayor Geving: Why don't you just both be there and Clark can ask the questions. Would you state your name please. Raman Mueller: My name is Roman Mueller with Su I Street, Bloomington. The question on the underground etanks,lI4 don't tknow what the problem is you're having currently but if I was to make assumptions, I would II guess it's an old plain, uncoated, steel tank with no cathotic protection on it because of the corrosive soil which is typical in this area. Currently we're using what they can a STIP3 tank which is a coated tank. Basically it's an II epoxy coating on it and on top of that there is cathotic protection built into the tank itself. Attached to the tank and is then wired to a monitoring system that we will be monitoring annually to make sure that the annodes are protecting the tank properly from any type of corrosion. We could get into the techinical II discussion of corrosion and basically what we're doing is eliminating it by adding the annodes to the tank. On top of that, our piping system will prevent lines and the supply lines for the dispensers are also completely cathotically II protected. Epoxy coated. Galvanized steep pipes. All of this is set into a wash basin sand so it's not native soils. We're eliminating part of the corrosiveness of the soil attacking the tanks or piping by contact. The piping is also wired to a system for monitoring it so we can see the rate of decay of the annodes and we can control the rate of decay of the annodes based on the corrosiveness of the soil because some of the acidity of the soil will creep into the sand over time. Currently the tanks are guaranteed by the steel tank II institute for 30 years. Our annode systems are designed to carry them anywhere from 30 to 50 years. We feel we've got probably the most conservative tank and piping installation available in the industry. The tanks are protected and II monitored as one unit. The supply piping is protected and monitored as another unit. The vent pipes with protective monitors are a third unit. Each one isolated by non-conductive ice layers to separate them metalically from one another. Even to the point of watching out so they can not, in the rare event II that some type of corrosion or contact by metal surface could cross them. They are spaced far enough apart so we feel that can not occur. To have an extremely rare occurrence and then that would immediately show up in our monitoring system II because we check them for continuity. Electronic continuity from one end to the other. We can pretty well tell everything that's going on underground once the system is installed. I Councilman Horn: Do you have any type of bonding that you put up to insure a City that they will not get stuck with this type of a problem? Roman Mueller: Currently we are required by the Federal Government to i I for a million dollars a site. We feel that's fairly adequate. nsure 'Councilman Horn: My last question is probably just a personal pet peeve butp it has to do with the type of pumps you plan to install out there. That is, where you have one active hose and three inactive hoses. Everyti.me I've used one of those, I've had to explain to about 3 different people who come up and try to 40 I City Council Meeting ; )ctober 10, 1988 put gas in the inactive hose, that that won't work because I'm usin g this one. They say, I don't care, I'm going to use this hose over here. The system II jr- doesn't work that way. I really find it difficult that you find that to be a marketable type of system. Roman Mueller: To be very twthful with you, this is the first complaint I've had from anybody that's used our systems in that light. The only other complaints I've heard have been from people at the company themselves and that deals mostly with being able to find that little blinking red button to turn ' them on. Excuse me, that's the first real negative comment on them I've heard. The old 262 system, the ones you're more used to seeing, where it's just a hose on each side, they've been around for a long time and everyone is used to using ' them. I think that you're seeing more of the multiple hose dispensers coming out and with time people will become more used to using them. Almost every manufacturer of dispenser is moving away from the old two hose dispenser to the ' multiples. As a matter of fact, the system, the 262's, excuse me for using a type there, are actually going to be phased out. They've already phased our their predecessor, the 162 and we fully expect to see the 262's phased out and only the multiple hose dispensers available. ' Councilman Horn: About the only way I coulde explain it to people is look, the numbers are going up here and you don't see any more numbers over here. I can't ' believe I'm the only one who's said that. That's all I have. Councilman Boyt: Let me go back to Roger. Environmentally I'll let you rest mr for a little bit here. Roger, you had some approvals coming up. How are they going on your end of the development? Roger Zahn: Which ones are you talking about? The Watershed, we have an ' approval and we have been working just about everyday with the Department of Transportation. I'm informed as of Wednesday or Thursday of last week, that the central office has finally signed off on our right turn in and that it's now ' processing and hopefully by the middle of this week we'll have it. But we had a long bureaucratic entanglement between the Department of Transportation's Central Office and District Office. The District Office being strongly in favor of the right turn lane and the Central Office having some questions about that ' that's now been resolved. As I understand it. Councilman Boyt: Okay. As I recall, one of the conditions of approval is that you'll have MnDot... Roger Zahn: Absolutely. We have to have that before we can do anything. ' Councilman Boyt: Is it conceivable that the shopping center, because it generates roughly 3 times as much traffic, would not get it and the gas station would get MnDot approval? ' Roger Zahn: The thought hasn't even entered my mind. The gas station doesn't go without the shopping center and vice versa. They're really intertwined. Councilman Boyt: There's a question here about utilities. ae Roger Zahn: I shouldn't say vice versa. The shopping center will go without ' the gas station but the gas station won't go without the shopping center. ' 41 City Council Meeting October 10, 1988 Councilman Boyt: On the utilities. There's also a condition that says utility service for HSZ will be completed. What does that amount to? Roger Zahn: I think it's probably our sewer. We have an extensive storm sewer project. We have sanitary sewer and we have our other utility hook-ups that have to be done. Before we can do that, we have our drainage ditches that have to be completed and that whole system has to be in place before we can move forward. Councilman Boyt: I've got a question for Gary for a second. Gary, how much money are we talking about on these utilities? Ballpark. , Larry Brown: We don't have any sort of cost estimate. I don't know whether Roger Zahn can recall ballpark figures. It's quite an extensive amount. Roger Zahn: It's a lot. Councilman Boyt: A lot? A million? ' Roger Zahn: No, no. It's about, depending upon how you look at it, it would be certainly well in excess of $200,000.00. Councilman Johnson: Is that in the development contract? Gary Warren: Yes. Councilman Johnson: Have we executed that? Gary Warren: Not yet. Councilman Boyt: Excuse me. We haven't executed the development contract? Gary Warren: The development contract has been approved for execution. The involved pieces are now coming. The permits and stuff are all tied with it. Councilman Boyt: I guess my question is, Roger you just mentioned that the two are sort of tied in together. That's got to be virtually a guarantee. How do we make that into a guarantee that the shopping center gets built? Roger Zahn: Just make it a condition. That's fine. Basically I can't ' it can happen any other way. First thing, we have to y n't see how g, put, as I mentioned, well in excess of $200,000.00 worth of work into this site and I guess I didn't throw in the highway work that we've got to do. We have to build a left turn onto Oriole. We have to build a side road. We have to build our entrance points and our exit points. At that point you're getting up pretty close to $300,000.00. ' With no building permit, there's no going forward without that and once we've spent that money, we're going forward. Councilman Boyt: Gary, when we get a development contract signed, with that do I we have some sort of guarantee? Is there some bonded amount that would allaw the City to finish, say construction of the roadway and utilities? Cil 42 , 1 City Council Meeting )ctober 10, 1988 i ° Gary Warren: That is the letter of credit that he will put up is for the utilities and the road. It's not for the building per se. It's for the site. Councilman Boyt: So the site will be fully developed? ' Gary Warren: Right. Roger Zahn: Landscaping is in that also. ' Jo Ann Olsen: And that is a specific condition of the site plan. Councilman Boyt: Right. I wanted to get a feel Jo Ann for just what we were ' talking about when we were talking about that kind of... If you can think of any other way we can write in a condition that will guarantee it even more solidly Roger, I'd love to have your input on that. I think that covers my questions for the HSZ part of the development. I've got some questions for ' Mr. Peterson. Mr. Peterson, are you intending to apply for a 3.2 license in the future? ' Randy Peterson: Operations. Roman Mueller: You can address that to SuperAmerica. We've got a big group ' here on this one. It's a little bit unique in the development. Is there, Dave, an idea of going in for a 3.2 license? Dave: That would be our preference. IRoman Mueller: It would be our preference. ' Councilman Boyt: Let's see, who was the environmentalist? Okay. I've got a question for you and Gary together. In regard to the ponding area and how this was going to catch the, should it happen, spill. The larger than a few drops. That hinges upon there being water in the ponding area. Okay, Larry? ' Larry Brown: My diagram, although I eluded to it in my mano, didn't really spell out the entire picture on how this went but further downstream before the ' outfall towards the wetland, there is a catch basin that's constructed such that it will actually, the pond will actually have to maintain pressure flow to force it through the outfall. So it's not necessarily the pond, although that's a nice little buffer there that they built into the system. It's the catch basin downstream that's constructed to act as a pressure flow system that would buy us a lot of time or actually act as the buffer in the event of a major spill. ' Councilman Boyt: Larry, I thought you did explain a pressure flow system in our notes but it required, what was it, 18 inches of water? 24 inches of water? There was a certain amount of water it had to have in it in order to keep the ' gasoline or whatever above that. Now is that a continual wet area? Larry Brown: Yes. In that catch basin it will contain water just due to the ' natural flow but even a gasoline spill, that pond would virually have to be filled up to force that through. Councilman Boyt: So what you're telling me is that the pond is dry, it still works? ' 43 i.ty Council Meeting - O. ber 10, 1988 II Larry Brown: Correct. Councilman Horn: Didn't you say there isn't enough volume in one of these things that it would come close to the percentage of volume the pond has to meet that...? Larry Brown: Exactly. Councilman Boyt: I understand that a potential leak is what, 2,400 gallons in ' the pond is like 400,000 gallon capacity. It just seemed as though there had to be water in the pond for it to function and you're saying it doesn't. That it will capture it there without water? ' Larry Brown: Correct. Councilman Boyt: Okay. Thank you. There seemed to be a lot of questions about , internal traffic flow. I know you've got all the consultants and MnDot and everybody working on this but maybe like Clark, I've used your station in Eden Prairie. It's a challenge. I'd like someone to explain to me how this is going to be less of a challenge. How it actually works. Roman Mueller: One of the things on this site that's different from TH 4 and TH 5 is the fact that here, you have a one-way in here and basically one way out here. This one can act in two directions. TH 4 and TH 5, your accesses are immediate. The one coming off of TH 5 straight into the operation and you can exit back out again. Out on TH 4, again, you're almost immediate out of the site and if you're there, you can both directions in a relatively restricted drive. Something that is a requirement from the City is the width of the drive which means that if cars have to stack there, you want somebody who wants to turn right, he's got to wait for the guy in front of him that wants to turn left. Here, we've got quite a distance out here and much, much wider. ..than we have at TH 4 and TH 5 on either one of the drives. That type of a situation so the ability to handle the number of cars that are in there is greater than the one at TH 4 and TH 5. I'm very familiar with the one at TH 4 and TH 5. Councilman Boyt: Roger, I'm glad you're back up because I have a question for you. Roger Zahn: Could I take a moment to just point out something that you may or may not be familiar with but the first time we were approved here, our site plan was a little bit different. We did build this area here where initially, I think maybe what you saw before was a straight in deal and we had some concern about the slope and grade so we made the entrance ramp a longer item. Number one, to reduce the slope. Give people a better visibility coming in and out and also to provide for some stacking in the event there is any congestion. We've got a very long stacking area. I didn't know if you were familiar with that or not. Councilman Boyt: No. I've got one more question for you Roger. On table 2, where you indicate your restaurant and I thought I had read in the data here that you had considered it a fast food restaurant even though one wouldn't kfe approved in this area but when I read the average daily trips, I get a number that says 96. Is that right? 44 2,1 City Council Meeting -- Jctober 10, 1988 1 Roger Zahn: Dave Koskey is the traffic engineer. Dave Koskey: Are you talking about the restaurant? Councilman Boyt: The restaurant. The 5,000 square foot restaurant with 96 trips a day. ' Dave Koskey: Let me check. Councilman Boyt: Maybe I read it wrong. Roger Zahn: Just to comment on the fast food restaurant. We know that that's not an approved use and we have no intention of doing it but we wanted a study. What's the worse possible case as far as traffic and handle the worse case. Councilman Boyt: Maybe I read it wrong. I hope I read it wrong or your study doesn't work. Roger Zahn: We weren't trying to indicate in there that we have any intention in the future of going for a fast food restaurant. tDave Koskey: Peak hour. Councilman Boyt: But when you look at the totals over there, look at SuperAmerica at 800 which is what they've been talking about all along through the Planning Commission. The retail center is at 3,094 which certainly isn't an hourly figure. Then we get to the restaurant and that's 96. ' Dave Koskey: I think we've got an error in that table. We show 96 in the peak hour. It's 53 in and 47 out. That adds up to 96. Or not quite. 54 and 42 adds up to 96. I think our 96 figure under A, B and C.. .is erroneous there. ' I'll have to check that. Councilman Boyt: So if it's 19.1 hourly, than whatever that is times 24 would ' give us the figure which would add up into the total and probably get us around 5,000 total trips in and out of the center. Councilman Horn: Compare it to retail above, you see the in and out is 54 and ' 23. The restaurant is 54 and 42 so you know it's got to come up a lot higher than that. It's got to be more than 3,000. ' Councilman Boyt: Good point. Dave Koskey: I think the 96 under allocated traffic is erroneous. What we really studied was the peak hour on the street. The a.m. and p.m. peak hour. ' That 96 figure is an error. Acting Mayor Geving: What do you think it is? You're the expert. ' Councilman Johnson: At any point did you use this 4,312 figure at the bpttom in any of your calculations? IDave Koskey: No. ' 45 22 #' II City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 ` II Councilman Horn: That's too low even for that. 0 Councilman Johnson: It's way too low if they ever used that number for any of the assumptions. _ p rzca Dave Koskey: The figure should be about half the Su erAme II. Councilman Boyt: So your restaurant is going to have a figure of about 400 I trips a day? Dave Koskey: 400 or less, yes. This is a sit down restaurant. It's not fast I food. Councilman Boyt: But when you figured your estimate, you did it on a fast food restaurant. I remember reading that specifically. Maybe you didn't but that's II what was said. Dave Koskey: We used...for fast food to develop a worse case scenario. I Councilman Boyt: Oh, that wasn't table 2? What table was the worse case scenario? Dave Koskey: That's table 2 but the figure that we I h ...traffic, that's erroneous for the restaurant. We really aonlytstudied ethe a.m. and p.m. peak hours. That's traffic on the road. The average daily traffic, there's plenty of capacity and so forth. The situation we wanted to I!! study was the a.m. and p.m. peak hours... Councilman Boyt: Okay, so what you're saying to me is the figure that MnDot II would use in design of the road is not the total number of trips a day but your peak hour trips? Dave Koskey: That's right. II Councilman Boyt: So the table's still good. I Dave Koskey: Yes, but I will get back to you first thing tomorrow. Acting Mayor Geving: Would you do that? We'd like to have a corrected figure. II Councilman Boyt: Gary, does that fit with you? That's reasonable? Gary Warren: Yes. II Councilman Boyt: I'm down to about the point where I guess I'd like to make I some suggestions. First, I appreciate, to start out on a good positive note here, your willingness to accept used motor oil. That makes you unique in this community, at least on a temporary basis but it's good that you're building for it because it would be my intention to require people to take it so you'll be ' ahead of the game. I suggest that we add that as condition 12. That they .5 til accept used motor oil and provide for it's safe storage. That was in a memo from Jo Ann. On page 5 of the staff notes. 46 II II (-, City Council Meeting October 10, 1988 Acting Mayor Geving: Just a minute now. I think we're really talking about 11. I IT Number 11 under the conditional use or number 12 under the site plan? Councilman Boyt: No. Excuse me. Under number 11 on the conditional use, I would state that the applicant agree to accept used motor oil and provide for it's collection in appropriate underground tanks. That's commendable that you're interested in doing that. Now some of the tougher issues. I think that our goal here for everybody. Roger, I think your goal has been right along in ' your development to minimize impact and try to help the neighborhood through a couple problems but really to minimize impact and that's how you won their support. I don't consider it tremendously surprising to see a gas station come ' in here but I think we have to keep the overall intent the same which was, we're going to make the impact zero, if possible, on the neighborhood. With that thought in mind, I'd be open to other Council suggestions but I think that we want to start out, I want to see it start out with something less than 24 hour a day operation. I read your arguments for why it makes sense from a stocking standpoint. From a save the miscellaneous driver who runs out of gasoline in the middle of the night standpoint. I understand those but I also understand that you're in an area with 6 other gas stations within a mile of this particular location and I think you should open your operation with something less than 24 hours a day and I rather suspect that if the neighborhood says, you know, we don't notice these folks down here, you'll have no trouble expanding. But it says to the neighborhood, again, we'll meet you maybe more than half way. It doesn't represent, as I look at your traffic flow numbers, a great loss in income as long as you're allowed to operate from 6:00 in the morning until something around 10:00 or 11:00 at night, you've basically covered 80% of your traffic volume. I would encourage the Council to limit those hours. The other thing is on your restocking trucks. I think those restocking trucks should come ' during times when the traffic flow on TH 7 and TH 41 is not particularly high. You indicated a willingness to have them restocked or have your gas tanks filled between 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m.. I think that plays right into the possibility of scheduling it at an unfortunate time for you and certainly for the traffic ' and I would like to see those hours limited to possibly from 10:00 in the morning until 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon. I think you'd stay out of potential traffic congestion. I guess I'll go along with Clark on the idea of ' deisel fuel. I think the way you've set your pumps up, a deisel truck a semi can't get- in there and refill anyway and you would'd want them there if they could because it would certainly discourage traffic from coming in and buying more expensive gasoline. I guess that covers it for now Dale. Thank you. Acting Mayor Geving: Very good Bill. A very good coverage. I guess it's my turn. One of the problems that I have with this entire development Mr. Zahn is the fact that this has been a very historic site. It's involved a lot of people, a lot of residents over the last 10 years. I can look to a lot of meetings in my side of this bench. Looking at the Zeiglers, the Connors, the Wagners. All the people who live along Forest, Oriole, that fought against this plan. Not particularly this plan but a plan that would have impact upon them as neighbors. I feel a little bit that we won most of those battles in terms of the environment and what it was going to do to the neighborhood. What it was ' going to do to their concerns. We tried to put in a low density office complex. The market wasn't right for it but I thought that that was the place fora good office complex and it would have worked. When the proposal came through for a ' retail center, I think that the neighbors and certainly this Council were a little bit coned, in a sense, by thinking that maybe it was right for a retail 47 24 - , II City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 II center if there were certain things that would happen. That again would be landscaping. Light intensity would be kept down. The traffic congestion on il TH 7 and TH 41 would be resolved. The neighborhood's concern for water pollution, oil pollution, noise and a whole lot of other things and we passed that because I felt that the retail center was a proper thing for that II commercial corner, and I still think it's a commercial corner. Something's going to happen. We approved that. Well, that's been a long time ago. I don't remember exactly but it must be almost a year. Roger Zahn: June. I Acting Mayor Geving: Okay, June. But it was a year in the making. It took a I long time for us to get to that decision point in June. The first thing that I wanted to see since we had passed that issue was the retail center. Get something going out there. Roger Zahn: Give me a building permit and I'll go II. Acting Mayor Geving: Well, we've got other concerns though. Now, the retail II center was one thing. I can tell you I was greatly surprised when this issue came before us as a SuperAmerica station. It's the last thing I wanted to see in addition to possibly a fast food restaurant. Which brings us down to the II point of having gone through the Planning Commission and where they're coming from and the neighborhood's concerns and I hope this time that you have met with the neighbors. Lessen their anxiety in terms of what you're proposing here. You're kind of putting the cart in front of the horse I think, in my view, by proposing a SuperAmerica station rather than the retail center first. Maybe there's some people out there, and I'm one of them right now, who thinks that you had this in your mind all along. That this was going to be the first thing II that would be sold. I could be wrong and I hope that I'm wrong. Roger Zahn: Absolutely not. There's no way. I've heard that and all I can say is, absolutely not. II Acting Mayor Geving: Alright. Let's get then to some of the conditions. Now I appreciate the fact that you have negotiated with the staff and with the II Planning Commission over several of the issues. You've talked about your willingness to accept the oil. I think that's terrific because we're looking for that and Bill said it, we're all saying it, we're going to impose it... I Public: It's going to be a federal law that they have to. Acting Mayor Geving: That's right. We're going to impose it anyway. I don't 1 know about that. Councilman Boyt: All they have to do is post a sign that says where you can I take it and that's what we're changing. Acting Mayor Geving: But let's get to some of the bigger issues and that is, if Iln they meet all the conditions of our ordinances, and this is what the staff i people are telling us. That you have met and exceeded most of those, let's•get down to some that really count. Those are the ones that involve potential impact on the neighbors. The lighting. Tell us about the lighting and how you Ell will recess that lighting so it will not impact the neighbors. Can you tell us 48 I City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 1r- right now? I don't want to bring up 16 people here. Roger Zahn: I'm just not the right person. Roman can absolutely talk to you about that. Acting Mayor Geving: When he comes up though, I want to talk about that issue. I want to talk about your skimmer device that's supposed to take the oil and gas off, whatever runs off your site. You said you were willing to install that. I certainly want to make sure that you've got it available the day that station opens because that's going to be a condition. I want to know about the run off from your facility and where it's going to go and that it's not going to impact our neighborhood or the lake, which is not very far away. We talked about the hours of operation. Now why, for example, can't SuperAmerica operate normal daytime hours from 6:00 in the morning until midnight? What's wrong with that kind of hours of operation? Why do we have to have extra police, extra fire protection during those other 6 or 7 hours when you're in operation? That's probably the only business out in that area that would be in operation from midnight until 6:00 in the morning. I'm not in favor of that. We run a Holiday station in town here and it opens at approximately 6:00 in the morning and closes at about 11:00 at night. Why can't you operate your station in the same way? You're intensifying our commitment to provide to you police and fire protection. I don't believe in my mind that we have resolved all of the roadway issues, the utilities and the landscaping. This is one of the other big issues that we've always had in that neighborhood out there and one of the promises that you made to the neighbors for the retail center, that landscaping will help to diminish that impact. I'd like to have you speak personally to that because I have to assume that you're the one that's going to carry the ball. I don't want to talk about your operations people or your signage people. I want you to answer that question. Would you respond to that? Roger Zahn: To the? Acting Mayor Geving: To the landscaping and impact on the neighborhood. Roger Zahn: Yes. I can understand your concern from the standpoint of we have felt when we came to you the last time that we would be under construction by now. Have this thing up and running. We have had this impossible bureaucratic tangle with the Department of Transportation and consequently we can't get a building permit. I'm not faulting the City in any way for that. We have to have our permits from the Department of Transportation until we can build. You made a comment that you think we're putting the cart before the horse because we're doing the SuperAmerica station first. We're not doing the SuperAmerica station first. As soon as I can get a building permit, we're going to go with this project. The whole entire project, the landscaping, the berming, the trees, the ramps, the left turn lanes, the whole bit, I'm dying to build them. Acting Mayor Geving: Would you agree to a condition that says that you can not build the SuperAmerica station until the retail center is being built? Roger Zahn: Is being built? Sure. Absolutely. Acting Mayor Geving: Would that be an acceptable condition Roger? Roger Knutson: Sure. 49 26 City Council Meeting - Od ber 10, 1988 Roger Zahn: I want to say this. It has now gotten so late into the season that it's very unlikely that we're going to get our blacktop down. What you normally have for a retail center of this size and...of this size of this parking lot and so forth, is 8 to 10 weeks from the beginning of construction until you get your blacktop down. We don't have 8 to 10 weeks before blacktopping anymore. What that means is, that it's very unlikely that we will be able to open our center in January as we had hoped. What we intend now to do is to go as soon as we get a chance to go and get as much of that done as soon as we can. We've got maybe 4 weeks of construction but that will include grading our site. It will include building the berms. It will include starting the foundation. Building the walls. You can see that there's going to be a building going up there. Your concerns are legitimate. I know we've lost credibility because we haven't been able to get going. That doesn't bother me. We're going to go for 4 weeks. At some point it's going to make sense for us, it's the cold weather and we're not going to be able to occupy our building and we're going to have to pull out and wait until maybe mid-February or something and then get back in there and finish it up. Hopefully we time the completion of the building with the drying out of the land and we put our blacktop down and our tenants go in. So that's our construction plan but there is absolutely no intention not to do the things that we talked to those neighbors about. Their concerns are valid. They're important to us too. We want to be a good neighbor in that neighborhood. Our shopping center as well as this project and everything else. Acting Mayor Geving: Did you understand the 11 conditions on this? Roger Zahn: I never saw it. I still haven't seen it. Acting Mayor Geving: You have not seen the conditional use permit with the 11 conditions? Roger Zahn: I haven't seen the staff report. I haven't got it. Jo Ann Olsen: We only sent one to SuperAmerica. Acting Mayor Geving: It's important for us for you to understand that because a lot of these are other than... Roger Zahn: I expect that they're, if they're just what was gone over in the Planning Commission meeting, I understand those and I have no problem. Acting Mayor Geving: For the most part and I think there were some enhancements made at the Planning Commission level with more changes. Tell me a little bit about the hours of operation. That's one that really gets to me. Roger Zahn: I'm going to have to turn over the SuperAmerica questions. Acting Mayor Geving: Would you tell us a little bit about the hours of operation and why you feel it's necessary to have a 24 hour a day operation. Roman Mueller: First of all, our company is a convenience store. We're there to be convenient to the customer. That's what convenience stores were built around. As are any other business that deals with volume of people coming and going at all hours of the day and night. That is the premise that all of these 50 City Council Meeting -- October 10, 1988 things are built on. Be there when the people are there. Serve them when they want to be served. Not when it's predicated or comfortable for us. That's why = we operate 24 hours a day, as does Holiday I do believe. Acting Mayor Geving: In some places. Not here. Let me ask you this though. In my reading of the script from the Planning Commission, you left the impression that this was a negotiable point. Roman Mueller: It is to a certain degree. Acting Mayor Geving: To what degree? Would you agree to a 6:00 a.m. to midnight operation? Roman Mueller: We'd prefer to have 5:00 a.m. to 2:00 a.m. if we can simply to get past the swing shift hours and the hours when people are leaving to commute longer distances. I can speak on that myself commuting a little bit further than a half hour drive to work wishing there were a number of places open from where I live so I could stop. Acting Mayor Geving: I guess I'm thinking of a neighbor or someone who might live in that general area who's had none of this up until now and all of a sudden a major impact of the 24 hour a day SuperAmerica station. Night and day, all night long, cars stopping. I don't get the real impression here that you're that active during the midnight hours. Roman Mueller: It is not extremely active but there are the two shifts that we do like to cover. Especially the late night shift. People coming home. We have the time to serve them and to clean up, stock, etc.. Things that, as long as we're there, we should have the opportunity to at least be able to do our retail business. Another point I'd like to make is your comment about the impact to the neighbors in the area. There's one thing, looking at the site plan where we have some sections here where we've added our building onto the existing sections that you've seen before, covering the whole site. Show the shopping center. Show the trees. Show the berms, etc. We're here. The neighbors are substantially a distance away. The impact, although we will be there and there will be lights and there will be traffic, not much different from the traffic that's on the highway there already. We do have the distance. As sound travels through distance, it diminishes substantially, as we all know, plus the trees. Plus the buildings. Plus the berm. It's as simple as I can make it. So admittedly, we'll be there, hopefully on a 24 hour basis but the distance and the objects between us and the neighbors does have a minimizing affect. Acting Mayor Geving: Any other questions from the Council on the conditional use permit? Roger Zahn: I think you asked about lighting too. Acting Mayor Geving: Give us a couple minutes on that please. Roman Mueller: I do believe we submitted a lighting diagram to staff sometime ago showing the lighting impact of our site. If I may step up here and 'speak on this, this is all laid out in foot candles of light. This is our site. HSZ's development is off there and the other outlot is off here. Our light's spillage 51 28 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 > into the surrounding area is negliable. Almost non-existant. You might be able to stand at a person's house and see the light but you can do that with the lights downtown also. That's not an impact on them. We're not lighting their buildings. We're not lighting their yards. We're not lighting anything they've got. They can see a point of light but they are not impacted by the light itself. It is also been required that in our canopy, our lights be recessed up into them to eliminate that point of light that they can see. That's already established in the development. Acting Mayor Geving: Any other comments? That's a very good point. Roman Mueller: Also, I'd like to point out that the lights that we do install, even when they are not made to be recessed into the canopy, are all cut lenses to focus the lights directly down. That is why the lighting diagram we have has so little spillage out. It's strictly down like this and the way it's made. We don't want to waste the light off on somebody else's property. Acting Mayor Geving: Just one other question. I asked about the skimmer device. Could you, since there was a lot of discussion on that, could you tell us a little bit of how it works and where you might use it? Roman Mueller: Unfortunately, I'm going to have to back off on that a little bit. Your staff covered that extremely well. What we've got here is three groups developing a site. I was not involved with the development of the skimming device, the holding pond, the fallout from that. I can speak on the principles. Acting Mayor Geving: Are you satisfied with that Jo Ann or Gary? Jo Ann Olsen: Yes. Acting Mayor Geving: Okay. Then we won't get into that. Just one other comment. Roger? Roger Zahn: I'm sorry to keep butting in here but also, not my consideration and I just want to correct that, as to whether or not there was a recycling for oil... - Roman Mueller: The recycled oil was a request made to us that we've just recently found out about. We're seriously considering it but I believe that there is a feeling here that says we have said yes to it. We have not yet said yes to putting it in. Acting Mayor Geving: But if we made it a condition of approval, you'd have no choice and I think that's where we're coming from. Councilman Boyt: That's what we're about to do. Roman Mueller: It's primarly the cost and the hazard. You're imparting upon us the responsibility of taking care of for the life of that property, not the life of the business, but the life of that property, by federal law, for any type-of spillage on that site. Now we will put it into our standards which would be the same as our underground tanks and piping but what you're doing is you're compounding our liability on that site plus the initial cost of construction of 52 cJ City Council Meeting Jctober 10, 1983 it which would be between $3,000.00 and $4,000.00. One of the comments that was made to us is that another oil company said, sure we'll put it in. Well, the problem with that site is they already have it. It's pretty easy to say you're going to put it in when they've already got it. All they're accepting is responsibility to have a sign up that says you can dump it. Acting Mayor Geving: I think you're confusing your personal situation with the desires of a city to keep our city clean. That's where we're coming from. We have a commitment that we made to our citizens and if this is a new facility, we're talking about anything that's new coming in, this Council has, we've discussed it in our work sessions. This is a requirement that we've talked about putting in with new stations so it's nothing new that we're going to stick you with that someone else isn't going to have as well. So don't feel like you're being picked on. You just happen to be the first one. I can tell you that. I don't care if it costs you $3,000.00. If the Council indicates that that's what a condition would be, to get approval in this project, then I think that's what you're going to have to do. Roman Mueller: We also have a responsibility to point out the liability that you're imparting on the businesses in your area. Acting Mayor Geving: We understand that. Any other comments? You had a comment Bill, and then we'll move on. Councilman Boyt: I want to add the two conditions I talked about and didn't add. I'd like to propose that we change 8. That tank deliveries be made ' between the hours of 10:00 and 4:00. Acting Mayor Geving: 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.. Okay, that's a proposal for discussion. Councilman Boyt: Proposal for discussion and we'll see what the council wants to do with it. I would propose an item 12, the hours of operation be limited to, I believe 6:00 a.m. to 12:00. I can understand where we might slide that to 5:00 a.m. but we're really talking about eliminating 65 cars from their proposed schedule and given that this is a beginning, I think it's a good statement to the citizens that live around there that the station is willing to do this. Randy Peterson: Can you restate your hours please? Councilman Boyt: Sure. Let's go from 5:00 a.m., well, that you'll operate no longer than from 5:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.. If you want to operate less time than that, you're welcome to. Acting Mayor Geving: Any councilmen want to discuss those two changes? One, the tank deliveries and hours of operation. Councilman Horn: I think we read in here that the deliveries would be at a time dictated by staff. Acting Mayor Geving: They put that in. Monday through Friday. .F Councilman Boyt: It says 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. on item 8. 53 City Council Meeting - 0 ber 10, 1988 Acting Mayor Geving: They put that in already, Councilman Horn: So we want to put those hours in? Is that staff's recommendation? Jo Ann Olsen: The Planning Commission discussed the SuperAmerica and they put in 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.. They didn't specify the day. Councilman Horn: So you're going along with that? Acting Mayor Geving: Bill wants to tighten that up to 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.. Councilman Boyt: Clark, I'd like to not encourage a tractor trailer to turn in there during some of the busy traffic times off TH 7. Jo Ann Olsen: What this was discussing was that the deliveries for the gas... Acting Mayor Geving: Tank deliveries. Councilman Boyt: No, not to get gas. That's from 5:00 a.m. to midnight. Councilman Horn: Yes, I think we should definitely make sure that they don't deliver during rush hour. Acting Mayor Geving: And what about your hours of operation Clark? Do you go along with that? Councilman Horn: I don't think that's, in terms of overall sales to SuperAmerica, I don't see that as a problem. I think that's more of an inconvenience to people who might want to get gas. Like Bill said, we're only looking at 65 cars during that time period and that's if we were at 6:00 a.m.. If we extend it to 5:00, I suspect that might pick up a good share of that 65% so I don't think it would be too much an economic hardship. My only question there is in terms of how much problem we're going to generate between those hours and the inconvenience that we're going to cause motorists. Acting Mayor Geving: But can't you equate that though to at least 5 hours when the neighborhood isn't going to hear cars coming in there. The lights will be turned off. Give them a break. Councilman Horn: I agree with that. I think that the highway noise on TH 7 is going to overshadow any noise that's at this station. Acting Mayor Geving: Why? Councilman Horn: I hear TH 101. I live much farther away than these people do and TH 101 I can hear from my house all the time. That highway noise is there whether this is here or not. We've already heard from the Eden Prairie Super America which is probably a bigger problem than this and that doesn't create a problem for the neighborhood. Acting Mayor Geving: Jay, have you have any comments on any of the conditions including the ones that we're proposing to add and amend? 54 31 ' City Council Meeting k..ctober 10, 1988 Jr- Councilman Johnson: I also see that there's a late night rush hour, especially like Saturday morning around 1:00 or so. Actually, as bars close the people stopping in to get some gas on the way home or some breath mints or whatever. I don't know what the impact is of them staying open at those times. As far as the impact to the City or the neighborhood, there's an adverse impact to the people who are out at that time and doing work. I used to work the graveyard shift and it was a real pain getting off work at 1:45 in the morning and nothing was open. Acting Mayor Geving: But you made some adjustments didn't you? When you knew that the gas station wasn't open after you got out from your work, didn't you get your gas before you went to work? I mean, those are just normal things that people adjust to. Councilman Johnson: Sure, but what I'm wondering is, what are we trying to prevent? Are we trying to prevent a noise impact because we're not changing any noise? The amount of change of noise of having them open or closed is going to be minimal. In fact, like you say, TH 7 with the trucks accelerating down the highway or the cars doing 60 mph down the highway. A car going 60 mph is a lot noisier than a car pulling into the SuperAmerica station. In fact it might reduce the noise a little bit if they're pulling into a SuperAmerica. I doubt that. They're also slamming doors and stuff like that. I don't know what we're doing. Brooks just opened. They're 24 hours a day. Holiday is 24 hours a day. Super Q is 24 hours a day. The new one that's being proposed down here, they're going to propose that one 24 hours a day. We're now saying that this particular one has to, we're being quite arbitrary. We're fixing a problem that I don't 3 see exists. I can't support us getting into his commercial venture and saying '__ you can't do this because we think you might create a problem. I have no evidence that a problem's going to be there. If there's a public nuisance and they do create a problem, we have ways of, in the future, of telling them you can no longer be open 24 hours. You are creating a problem. You are a public nuisance. There are rules and laws to do that. Or, you have to do something to reduce the noise. If they're out banging the garbage dumpsters at 2:00 in the morning or something, that's disturbing the folks, that's the only time they throw the trash away is 2:00 in the morning, you say hey, don't do that. Don't go around slamming your garbage dumpsters at 2:00 in the morning. That was the other condition. Acting Mayor Geving: On the hours of operation, you have a comment that's negative? Councilman Johnson: Yes. I'm not in favor of imposing our restrictions on them until I see there's a need. Acting Mayor Geving: Have we had any experience with police protection? I know Chaffee isn't in, regarding the other unit of operations that are open 24 hours a day. Councilman Johnson: That's where they get their coffee and sweet rolls. Acting Mayor Geving: You don't recall any big problems Don from the public safety? "` 55 .32 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 Don Ashworth: The 24 hours operations for most of these is relatively minimal. But to best of my knowledge, we've had no problems. We did have an early morning burglary but that would have occurred, I think that was at the 7:00 or 8:00 timeframe. Councilman Horn: I think the way they've addressed that here is they always keep 2 to 3 people on that will discourage that more I think than being closed. Councilman Johnson: There was an article in the paper about a month ago on convenience store robberies and the main thing the Minneapolis Police Department was asking for was 2 man operations within stores. Acting Mayor Geving: Roman, is that how you will operate this if it's open? Roman Mueller: We have been operating with 2 to 3 people for years. Acting Mayor Geving: On all sifhts? Roman Mueller: On all shifts and it's our example that's bring this up with the Minneapolis Police Department to ask some of the other convenience stores to do the same. Acting Mayor Geving: I'm hearing from the Council that the hours of operation as being proposed, from 5:00 a.m. to 12:00 is reaching a negative point there. Councilman Boyt: Let me respond. Acting Mayor Geving: If you want to make a shift in that Bill. YoOu'll have the proposal. Councilman Boyt: Jay, we're sitting in an area with 6 other gas stations. We're not going to stand anybody. Councilman Johnson: What are these 6 other gas stations? Councilman Boyt: On TH 7? Councilman Johnson: That are within a mile? Councilman Boyt: The neighborhood Jay has asked that we restrict the hours of operation. It's something that's much easier to add to than it is to take away from. I would rather see us start, and I think we're being extremely generous really in saying you can operate from 5:00 until midnight. That's a ton of hours and if they want to put somebody in there to stock while they've got everything turned off, I guess that's their decision. I wouldn't do it but it's their decision. Let's not intermingle other situations that have already been decided. Let's deal with this one and with the response to the neighborhood that, as they would tell you, they're a little surprised by what's happening and they'd probably like a vote from SuperAmerica that says, look, we'll do something that may not make a lot of sense to us, but we're trying to be good neighbors here. Acting Mayor Geving: I think it's a negotiable point. They've said willingly in the staff report with the Planning Commission that this is one area that 56 r 33 i_ • City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 they're willing to talk about. I think from a resident's standpoint, I'd like to see some relief, at least past midnight when there isn't a whole lot of activity taking place down in that corner. I guess I have to vote for the more restrictive hours. 24 hours a day is new as Don said. Maybe we haven't had a lot of problems with burglaries and the problems but I'd like to keep that option open to us and leave it at the 5:00 a.m. to midnight. If that's how you want to be a good neighbor, we can start there. The other one was on number 8, tank deliveries will be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.. The reasoning behind that was, Monday through Friday, was that we would not have tank deliveries during the critical time when people are on the highways. I think that's your reasoning there isn't it Clark? That would be a good time to propose that. That's reasonable to me. Now, I don't know from an operation standpoint whether it holds us. Roman, maybe you can tell us. Roman Mueller: That's what I was just clearing. We were hoping for an 8 hour period simply because of the ability to schedule people in. The tanker has to make a number of runs, number of stops, that sort of thing. I got the nod that evidentally 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. is acceptable. We wouldn't call them to come in there during rush hour anyway. It's ludicrous to try to... Acting Mayor Geving: Okay, let's stay with it. If you're willing to accept that as a business proposal, than I think it's a good idea. Roman Mueller: We're open on weekends though. It's Monday through Friday. Right now we don't know if that says we can't deliver at all on weekends where we're open hours during the weekends. Acting Mayor Geving: Really what it says is that you wouldn't get any more deliveries after Friday. This might be unreasonable. I would say this is unreasonable. We would shut you down if you had a run of business on Saturdays. Roman Mueller: Or Sundays. Just normal business would run us dry. Councilman Johnson: How many days a week do you usually get a delivery? Roman Mueller: 7 days a week. Acting Mayor Geving: Let's change number 8, that the tank deliveries will be limited to 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday. Councilman Johnson: He says he gets it 7 days a week. He'll run out of gas on Sunday. Acting Mayor Ceving: Let the guys rest on Sunday. Roman Mueller: So you're shutting us down on Sunday? Councilman Boyt: No. Deliveries. You indicated at the Planning Commission that you do not have to have a delivery everyday. We're taking one day a week and saying... Roman Mueller: That's on an average store. What happens to us if our business there is greater than projected? 57 City Council Meeting - .ober 10, 1988 Councilman Boyt: Come back. Acting Mayor Geving: Come back and talk to us. Roger Zahn: Just one comment on that. You have event traffic on Saturdays and Sundays. I know I'm not speaking for these people but I happen know TH 41 a little bit better. You've got the Rennaisance Festival. You've got Canterbury Downs and that sort of thing. Maybe it's just something to consider. Acting Mayor Geving: Let's go with this as being proposed by the Council. If it doesn't work, come back and talk to us. We're willing to listen to amending this. I'd rather start being restrictive and if it doesn't work out, and you can prove to us that it doesn't, that you're being shut down on Sundays because you're not getting deliveries, we'll listen to you as a Council. Roman Mueller: Can I ask, I've never gone into a proceeding like that before? What would be the procedure? I would have to wait until we have to close on a Sunday before I can bring it in as proof? Is that what it would boil down to? Acting Mayor Geving: Possibly. Or that you're getting low and you could foresee a problem. We're reasonable people but I think in this case, our whole intent here in even thinking about granting this conditional use permit is to allow a business that we never dreamed would happen in this area. We're trying to be as restrictive as we can to make sure that it has the least amount of impact on our community. Now, if you don't want that business out there, then that's fine. That's your business. We want you in Chanhassen but we want you under our conditions. Councilman Horn: That's not a surprise either. That came up at the Planning Commission. Councilman Boyt: Right. On page 46. Roman Mueller: ...the Planning Commission as it was discussed was not have it limited on the weekends. Jo Ann Olsen:- They never specified days. Councilman Horn: Days determined by the City. Jo Ann Olsen: I threw those in because what they were looking at was the noise to the neighborhood. I didn't understand that you needed deliveries everyday. Roman Mueller: We can't predict what day we need a delivery. Councilman Horn: They said in their report that they didn't. They would get unleaded every other day and that was the prime user at a typical station. Starting up you're not going to be typical for a while. Roman Mueller: For about 2 weeks. Our average turn around is about 2 weeks, Councilman Horn: How often do you go to the Eden Prairie store? 58 I 35 City Council Meeting - ,,ctober 10, 1988 I Roman Mueller: How often do I go there? Councilman Horn: How often does your tanker go there? Roman Mueller: That is a very busy store. Councilman Horn: So stores in this area are above typical? Roman Mueller: Understand too that not every tank runs out everyday. One day one tank may need some gas and another day another tank may need it. It's not a fixed flow rate where you can predict each and every day exactly what you're going to have. That's why the limitation of the day is the I y problem. Not the hour, just that one day because I will guarantee you we would be in here with loss of business for one day and then we go through the procedure where we would have to start on this and I'm going to guess it would take at least a month for I us to get that turned around which puts us out another 4. That's 5 days minimum that we're going to get shut down if that's the trend that develops. I just want to be reasonable on that point. We've given many things along this. We worked with the neighbors. Acting Mayor Geving: You haven't given anything yet. 11 Councilman Boyt: One quick figure on this. It would take 500 cars to drain one of their 3 10,000 gallon tanks. To drain one of them would take 500 cars. If they each took 20 gallons. And they've got a 12,000 gallon tank so really they've got a capacity there and I grant you, we have a run on one kind of gasoline, it all goes. That's 500 cars in a day. That's half of the car load in that day. I guess you know we can find out what the neighborhood thinks o Dale. Acting Mayor Geving: I think this is a Council decision. We have to stick with the Council, as much as I'd like to hear from the neighbors. Councilman Horn: It seems to me if you top them off at 4:00 on a Saturday, your chances of, your chances of the highly used one are the most likely to run out. The others are not going to, that's not going to happen. That's unleaded. Roman Mueller: Just going on historical data. If the City Council feels that that's the way we have to go, we will go that way to get this installed out jI there and we will go back through the procedure and count our losses and discuss those with you at that point in time. I Councilman Horn: Okay, let's do it another way. You show us projections of a typical station where this will cause you problems. We haven't seen that yet. The projections you've given us said that this won't be a problem. Come back with some numbers that show us it will be. Roman Mueller: With the gasoline sales, is that what ou're saying? yzng. IQ Councilman Horn: Right. t■,.. Roman Mueller: I can't predict how many gallons each car takes or what truck is going to come in there but yes. I just went on the basis of the gentleman who's the area manager, past store manager for TH 4 and TH 5. Dave, can you put I59 38 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 I ' r- 2. No repair, assembly or disassembly of vehicles is permitted on premises. 3. No public address system shall be audible from any residential parcel. 4. Gas pump stacking area deemed to be appropriate by the required Y City shall not intrude into any quired setback area. I 11 5. No sales, storage or display of used automobiles or other vehicles such as motorcycles, snowmobiles or all-terrain vehicles is permitted. 6. The lights on the gas canopy shall be receded into the canopy to eliminate dispersion of light into the surrounding neighborhood area. 7. There shall be no outside display, storage or sales of merchandise. 8. Tank deliveries will be limited to 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday. 9. The applicant shall meet all conditions of the Assistant City Engineer as stated in the memo dated September 14, 1988. 10. The applicant shall comply with all conditions of the site lan approval. Aproval. 11. The applicant shall accept used motor oil and provide for it's safe Il storage. 12. The hours of operation shall be limited to between 5:00 a.m. and 12:00 midnight. ► Councilman Boyt and Acting Mayor Gevi.ng voted in favor; Councilman Johnson and Councilman Horn voted against and the motion failed with a tie vote of 2 to 2. Acting Mayor Geeing: The motion fails. Is there a second motion? Councilman Boyt: Sure, let's take 12 out and run it again. Councilman Horn: I'll second that. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve Conditional Use Permit #88-10 as shown on the site plan stamped "Received August 15, 1988" with the following conditions: 1. No unlicensed or inoperable vehicles shall be stored on premises. 2. No repair, assembly or disassembly of vehicles is permitted on premises. 3. No public address system shall be audible from any residential ►I parcel. .F 4. Gas pump stacking area deemed to be appropriate by the City shall not i ur ntrude into any required setback area. 62 City Council Meeting - October i0, 1988 5. No sales, storage or display of used automobiles or other vehicles such as Imotorcycles, snowmobiles or all-terrain vehicles is permitted. 6. The lights on the gas canopy shall be receded into the canopy to eliminate dispersion of light into the surrounding neighborhood area. ' 7. There shall be no outside display, storage or s Y g sales of merchandise. 8. Tank deliveries will be limited to 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday. ' 9. The applicant shall meet all conditions of the Assistant City Engineer as stated in the memo dated September 14, 1988. 10. The applicant shall comply with all conditions of the site plan approval. ' 11. The applicant shall accept used motor oil and provide for it's safe storage. ' All voted in favor and the motion carried. Acting Mayor Geving: The motion passes. There are 11 conditions to this conditional use permit for the SuperAmerica station at TH 7 and TH 41. Gentlemen, let's move on to item (c) . I'd like to pass on the sign variance IIbecause I think it's more important that we get to the site plan and we'll come `, back to the sign. Allan Putnam: I'm very disappointed you haven't asked for the people... Acting Mayor Geving: We're not done with this process. ' Allan Putnam: You just approved the conditional use permit. Acting Mayor Geving: We approved the conditional use permit. That's correct. Betty Lang: We're not allowed a public hearing? ' Acting Mayor Geving: This really wasn't a public hearing. Bob Wagner: It hasn't been discussed before the Council. Acting Mayor Geving: That's correct. It was not discussed before the Council before. ' Ben Gowen: Don't we have input from the neighborhood? Acting Mayor Gevi.ng: I think we had public hearings at the Planning Commission level. Jo Ann, maybe you could respond to that. Jo Ann Olsen: They had a public hearing at the Plannin g Commission •!� ' Acting Mayor Geving: I think that all of the conditions were met for the public hearing. VI 63 City Council Meeting - G .ober 10, 1988 k Resident: But it. . . Acting Mayor Geving: I don't believe so because Jo Ann said... , Ben Gowen: You weren't there and I was. Acting Mayor Geving: At the Planning Commission, yes. Ben Gowen: You were not there and I was there and we did not have a proper hearing. That meeting was set up for the proposition of putting in the station. We didn't hear anything about putting in the station. All we heard about was no packaging outside on the sidewalk. Delivery times and so forth. These were all preconceived ideas that they were going to have the station. Acting Mayor Geving: I think the Planning Commission, maybe you could say Jo Ann what happened at the Planning Commission. ' Jo Ann Olsen: There were actually two public hearings. The first one was the initial one that had a lot of those issues that came up and the public was invited to speak. They tabled action and they opened it up for public hearing again the second time which did center on most of the issues that had been brought up at the first public hearing. Bob Wagner: Does she have a microphone that works. It's real hard to understand her. Acting Mayor Geving: Would you speak into that please. Jo Ann Olsen: We did have actually two public hearings. The first one was in front of the Planning Commission which everyone was invited to. They tabled action because of a lot of the issues that the public did bring up. If there's an accidental spill. Lighting. Hours of operation, etc.. They tabled action. They had a second public hearing which I know that you spoke at and everyone again was, it was opened up for anyone to make comments. Bob Wagner: I might not have spoke because we thought we would speak at this meeting which has traditionally been what happens at the Planning Commission. Gene Connor: May I ask you a question. Acting Mayor Geving: Yes sir. Gene Connor: Are you trying to establish a precedent whereby the public is no longer invited or allowed to speak at Council meetings? Acting Mayor Geving: Never sir. Never. Gene Connor: Well, you're doing it tonight. We have always been able to speak. Acting Mayor Geving: I know that and we've always had that opportunity but I Roger, haven't we met all the criteria tonight and at previous Planning EllCommission meetings for the public to speak at the Planning Commission? 64 1 ,'II 41 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 II Roger Knutson: Under State Law and your ordinance, the official public hearing I a , is at the Planning Commission which I believe, according to Jo Ann, they met twice in public hearings. I also understand that you have Minutes of those Planning Commission meetings were given to you so in that way you have the input Ifrom the citizens through those Minutes. Acting Mayor Geving: What I have here Mr. Connor, I have about 40 pages of Planning Commission notes. Every councilmen here has read those. Now I would 1 be open, as the Chairman here tonight, to listen to anything that's new that we don't have in these notes. If any of you would like to speak, I would be very welcome to have you speak at this time. Please do and if you want to, you can I take that development proposal down, come before the Council and give us some new input if you think that there is something that was not discussed at the Planning Commission that is not in these 40 pages of notes. Because really, there's a ton of information. IIBob Wagner: How do we know what are in those notes? IAllan Putnam: We haven't had a chance to see than. Acting Mayor Geving: I would be very happy to share with any homeowner who Idesires a copy of this. We can have than run off and make available to you. Councilman Horn: If you were at the public hearing, this is a word by word verbatim reading of everything that was said at the public hearing. So if you I = were there, anything that was said are in these notes. Acting Mayor Geving: The Council is always open. The Council is always II available to anyone who wants to come and speak but if there anything new that you know of that we're not aware of that happened at the Planning Commission, I'd like to have you come before the Council now and speak. II Gene Gonnor: I do have one ther question. Do I understand you're running for Mayor? IIActing Mayor Geving: Yes sir. Dennis Nesbitt: Mr. Mayor, councilmen, I'd like to identify myself. I'm Dennis Nesbitt. I'm a resident of Eden Prairie. One of these supposed hapII py ppy residents that SuperAmerica is taking care of me for. I live approximately 115 feet from the property of the SuperAmerica station. I can tell you a lot of this stuff that they've tried to tell, their illumination plans, is a bunch of bull you I know what. There is not too many satisfied citizens. We've got a couple of wooden fences out there. We've got a sidewalk and I'll tell you what. They've got their little entourage here on their little strings and they jump up and I they sit down and I do this and I do that and I do the next thing. I think I recognize one gentleman that went through the Board of Appeals over at Eden Prairie. They took their little site plan, I haven't even seen this one really, but they took and they jammed an exit from that SuperAmerica station right into a residential neighborhood. What are they going to do to these neighbors next time around? What are they going to do to you guys? Maybe you won't bO sitting here. Maybe you won't be living out there. Dot your i's and cross your t's. IThey've come up with all kinds of little phony traffic studies and numbers. They came up with a video of a traffic study on a busy day, they showed 3 school 1 65 42 " IICity Council Meeting - Ct.)ber 10, 1988 buses. They couldn't even get the date and the times right on their study and they supposedly had their technicians out there providing what they were trying to back up what they were trying to prove. They couldn't even do that right. The noise. I got up at 5:00 this morning, I was out on Lake Minnetonka at 5:00 this morning. I forgot to shut a bedroom window upstairs. I don't need a light to go up to my northeastern bedroom. They light it for me. Do you know what I get in the morning? Welcome to SuperAmerica shoppers. Go ahead pump 3. Go ahead pump 27. Clear 23. That's what I get in the morning. That's what I get on a nice calm summer night. My deck faces the north. This is what I get. I've got a berm in the back of my house and I have some trees back there but this is what I get. No impact on the neighborhood? Bull. Acting Mayor Geving: Could you give me your name? ' Dennis Nesbitt: I'm Dennis Nesbitt. I'll give you my card. I'm an employee of the City of Eden Prairie. Clark says he goes in there and gets deisel fuel, you ought to see the trucks that come in there. Dump trucks. Gravel trucks. Asphalt trucks. Short haul trucks around town. Not just the Chevette deisels and the VW Rabbits, no. There's many a truck that goes in there. I think these guys give all these companies discounts so these trucks on the road have got an SA card. So they promote that deisel fuel. The traffic count that they've got, 65 cars, no way. From midnight to 5:00 if you don't get 165 cars, you aren't getting any cars. I think this little ponding and skimming idea you've got is real nice but I think what you should do is go to your building department and have them check on the future qualifications that are coming through in the 1988 LBC hazardous chapter. They are rewriting the whole hazardous chapter. That's why these boys are pushing. They're trying to beat this H because the requirements in that chapter for these new hazardous occupancies, are so restringent that if they can get this built before then, they're not talking about $3,000.00 for a fuel tank or a return oil tank. No, they're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. They've got to have holding ponds that hold ponds and hold ponds after that. They've got to have triple protection. Garbage dumpsters. 24 hour a day lighting and the service, that doesn't bother me. The people that come in there. It's the oddballs that come back through the neighborhood. That's the one I worry about. That one light. You're talking about Near Mountain Drive. You get an oddball character who doesn' t live in the neighborhood, that's the person that's going to kill. That's the person that's going to kill that child. That's what we have to look forward to in our neighborhood. Maybe then we can get our City Council and our Board of Appeals to go back and shut that driveway off. I went around and I surveyed all these gas stations that they had around town. I think I did 8 or 10 of them on the southwest side. Not a one of them had an entrance in a residential neighborhood. TH 4 and TH 5 does. They'll do it. They'll do it to you. They'll dot your i's and cross your t's. Don't trust any one of these guys. What do you think these guys are sitting here for? They're waiting for you to make a little slip, they're going to slide a little something through on the Planning Commission. 'they're going to... Acting Mayor Geving: Just a moment now. I don't think that was a correct statement. I Dennis Nesbitt: Okay. Now the next one. The fuel tankers, I think you sI�:Ciuld restrict them to off service hours because that fuel tanker, when he comes in, if there's any amount of traffic around there and there's a cigarette, what are 66 1 City Council Meeting =. October 10, 1988 II ' Y ou going to do? You're going to lose something. Make them deliver the fuel at night. That tanker is not noisy but it's extremely explosive. And get them to 1 1r7 take their garbage out at sometime other than 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning. BFI has the noisiest dumpster collectors that you've ever heard in P y your life. I really think, take care of your neighborhood and your constituents who live in I your community. They snuck a-little quirk through on TH 4 and TH 5 and I'm not very happy with it and I'm sorry to take anymore of your time. I Acting Mayor Geving: Dennis, thank you very much. Dennis, you brought up something that I thought was rather interesting. The tankers refueling at night. I hadn't thought about that. Maybe none of us had in terms of the best time that a tanker could be on the road and refueling at that station. IIDennis Nesbitt: Tanker drivers are extremely good drivers. Those people, they know what they're handling. It's the people that are on the site that don't I , know what's going on. I think if you would check with your Fire Marshall, the State Fire Marshall, or somebody like that, I think their recommendations would allow you more leniency than just between that 10:00 and 4:00 or something like 1 that. Acting Mayor Geving: Okay. Thank you very much. II Allan Putnam: Allan Putnam. I live at 6285 Chaska Road across TH 41 from the site. Three comments that I have. One is, the numbers that they've given as far as the number of cars, number of stops per day and then their concern about 11 L running out of gas. It makes me nervous because on the one hand they're talking about numbers of cars which aren't going to be any problem and then all of a sudden when we want to restrict deliveries, they're worried about running out of gas so apparently they're anticipating perhaps maybe significantly more numbers I than they're been talking about. Also, I'm concerned about the traffic flow on that corner and with the increased noise because of starts and stops. That's when you get a lot of noise. It isn't just the traffic rolling down the highway 1 that causes the noises. It's the acceleration that causes more noise. Acting Mayor Geving: You live right across the street? IIAllan Putnam: Across TH 41. The other thing that I would like for you to reconsider the hours of operation because again, just as the gentlemen from Eden Prairie area is concerned about noise late at night, so am I. The third Ithing, I would like for you to add... Acting Mayor Geving: Before you go on, what would you consider the best hours II of operation? Allan Putnam: I think 5:00 to midnight is satisfactory. The other thing is, I would like for you to add another conditional use and that would be that they I not be allowed to sell any 3.2 beer or make an application even to sell any 3.2 beer or other alcoholic beverages at any time in the future. IActing Mayor Geving: That's certainly one that one of the Councilmembers I L mentioned. I think Bill mentioned it and we didn't pick that up. um Allan Putnam: I would like that restriction put on as a conditional use that they can't even apply. II 67 44 e _ I/ City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 I Bob Wagner: I'll try and skip over my big speech. But before the ink was dry, Ij I think we've seen some things come back that we hadn't expected. The issue really is, and has always been one of intensity and I have heard traffic studies, but I think your issue of intensity of the neighborhood is the one that IIrests home with me and warms the coppers of my heart anyway. It's always been talked about at this level and at the Planning Commission, find a win-win situation. A workable solution. I think it's with that that the community came forward with good faith and worked with these gentlemen. I asked myself, where II does it stop? It should have been before tonight. We shouldn't be here talking about gas stations. To me it's signs of railroading. I think that the neighbors wouldn't have been nearly as congenial as they have been if a gas station had been readily apparent in the beginning. That to me comes down to the issue of zoning. I don't think conditional permit zoning should be even allowed. I think it should be completely stricten from the zoning regulations for this development. I read it again. I think that we should recommend II conditional permit zoning be completely stricken from this development. This corner can develop within the auspicies of BN zoning without that. The second issue is one of convenience store. Specifically a gas station. There are 7 gas II stations, 7 of them, not 6, within less than 3 miles of this corner. 6 of those are within less than 2 miles and 4 of those are within a mile. Councilman Johnson: 24 hour gas stations? II Bob Wagner: One of those is 24 hours. The JET station 2.7 miles later. Open 24 hours. Acting Mayor Geving: 7 gas stations within how far? Bob Wagner: Within 3 miles of that corner. II Allan Putnam: And the Amoco station in Excelsior. Bob Wagner: That's two for you and that one is within 1 mile. 1. II got gas stations. Then there's the argument that the 24 hour servviicexthat I think still deserve some more comment and how it would be so convenient. II We've already-got it. We've talked about it. There's two right here that we just pointed out. We've got the convenience and all within less than 3 miles of the location. Or how about the issue of let us remain open 24 hours to restock. II It's not our convenience. It's inconvenience. It's the inconvenience of the trucks, the gas and general merchandise being delivered. Any kind of goods in a bedroom community after hours isn't to the convenience to the community. I don't think we need the inconvenience brought on by the added risk of the II robberies. You talked about your article, I brought it for you. Pass it out to you. Several of the issues are addressed. It talks about the added police protection that Dale was talking about. 60 phone calls within a period of x II number of days. I quote, "convenience stores have always been an easy touch for robbers", the police department says. "The late night hours when there are few customers around make them attractive targets." They talk about the station down at 7-11 in Bloomington Avenue South. He talks about the clerks at that , store and two more nearby average 60 calls a month to police the first half tf the year in 1988. Mostly to forestall trouble. I think it relates back to what we heard from the fellow from Eden Prairie talking about the kooks in the neighborhood. They go in and talk about the two employees per station as a 68 II I 4 City Council Meeting ,)ctober 10, 1988 ' C) I necessity. I think that should be in the conditional use permit if you're going II I to allow the station open. We're already on the fringe out there of contracted police protection. I think you're just adding to the intensity of the problem you have. Even Driskill's Super Value across the street operates closing at midnight now. I called this morning just to verify. We have no business in the I area open past midnight that I'm aware of and I think that we should maintain that. I think the real issue is, we feel a little hurt. What the hell, we've come back with change to zoning change to change zoning, the whole thing we're I playing again was intensity. I don't know of anything more intense than a gas station. Even a fast food station turn off their lights at about 10:00 if you come down TH 7 by McDonalds. I think the issue is intensity in a residential community. I think it's inappropriate zoning. IGene Connor: I'm Gene Connor, 2521 Orchard Lane and I just want to say what a priviledge it is to be here tonight. It's almost becoming a hobby. Bob's so I damn efficient, he said almost everything I wanted to say. I'd just like to make one additional point and underline it. If a gas station had been what was proposed when all of this started up a couple years ago, it never would have been considered. You know, you all know that. Yet today you're allowing it. It looks like you're going to allow it to come in on the coattails of something else that we asked to, and we did ask, with some relunctance because we thought it was a good proposal. As Bob said, I don't think any of us, I think we woul I have fought tooth and nail if we had dreamed they were going to try to shove a SuperAmerica station in behind it. And I like SuperAmericas gas. They run a great gas station but I share the concerns about all the concerns that Bob IlL: narrated. There's no point me going over them again. Betty Lang: My name is Betty Lang. I live at 2631 Forest Avenue. I guess I just have to repeat the same thing that as far as the neighbors, we were Iconned into this. What I have here, I mean you see the same faces all the time. What I have here is a petition, although you don't want to see a petition, but it's from the neighborhood, the immediate neighborhood with 82 signatures. I'm Isure there are many more signatures... Acting Mayor Geving: We'd like to have that. I wish we could have had it I earlier this evening Betty. Normally what happens is the petitions and letters really come before. What normally happens before we get our Council packet, we usually have all of the letters or petitions or whatever so we can each have a copy and we'll put this into the photocopier and we'll get a copy for each Icouncilmen. Thank you very much. Gene Connor: You made a comment earlier, if I may, about we all had our I opportunity at the Planning Commission. It was so completely obvious to some of us that the Planning Commission had already made up their minds and it was totally stacked against us that we decided it might be much more productive, and I I say that deliberately. We decided, we discussed, both Bob and I and some others, that our best forum was here at the Council. We didn't have any idea that we were potentially going to be cut off. II Allan Putnam: We were told that we should come and voice our opinions here. Bob Wagner: If you ever attend those meetings, they pass them up to you just Ito get out there. I69 . _ 8City Council Meeting - Aber 10, 1988 I Councilman Horn: The other thing that he said was, I thought he said that there were not trucks that had deisel engines that came to SuperAmerica. That's not M what I said. I said there are no trucks that go there and buy deisel fuel that Y don't have equivalent sizes with gas engines. They can use a gas station. That was my comment. The question on traffic studies, I think we saw some flaws in I what they said. That's why we have an engineering staff that we ask questions to. Do these numbers make sense? We asked them that question tonight and they said yes, they did. I had the same concern that Jay brought up and I think it was a valid concern. Even though there were some errors that were pointed out here, those were used in some of their traffic analysis. That's why we specifically asked our engineer, whether they were. He said the numbers made sense. We're not traffic engineers up here. We rely on our staff to give us I that type of data. They could very well slip through a traffic question on me and I wouldn't catch it. They better not let our staff let them slip by because they're paid for that. The other issue he said was he gets his bedroom lit up from these lights. The staff report that I read said that the lighting that's going to be used here is different than the lighting that they're using on TH 5 and TH 4 and that will not be an issue in this case. That's the information that we have to deal with. If that's not correct... Gene Connor: Is that one of the conditions? Councilman Horn: Yes. It has to be totally recessed lighting that can't shine beyond the periphery of the diagram that they showed us. When I first saw this tank deliveries, I thought sure, they ought to send them in the middle of the night and I don't know what kind of noise will be generated by that. I'd like some of our engineers to respond to that because to me the best compromise to safety and no noise is what we need. I know that there are a lot of areas that don't have any restrictions at all on this but I think we should put some on that make sense. What I want to do is have things that make sense. Not just throw something out there to throw a rock in the path. That doesn't solve anybody's problems. They have to be logical things that we do. That's why I had a problem with hours of operation. Nobody could convince me that we would be solving any noise problems if we cut out the hours between midnight and 5:00. Bob Wagner: What you're cutting off is potential other things going on in the neighborhood-that that draws out there like a magnet. Councilman Horn: That's a safety issue that hadn' t come up before. That particular element of safety because of the draw. The other issue too is if you've got 6 of these others within a 2 mile radius, aren't you going to attract that element anyway? Bob Wagner: You bet. It's down the road...but it's already there. They don't want it in their backyard either. Councilman Horn: These are the kinds of the things that I think we have to try and make value judgments on. We have to rely on our experts. Bob Wagner: I thought the community, the cohesiveness of it and the I cohesiveness of that community, that this. .. 72 City Council Meeting October 10, 1988 I Councilman Horn: The other thing I'd like to ask Dennis, if he's the neighbor II that Dave Headla was referring to when he was talking about the neighbor of the jr-; SuperAmerica station in Eden Prairie because that's a totally conflicting input from what we got from Dave Headla on the Planning Commission. ' Councilman Johnson: Mrs. Zeigler I believe found Mr. Nesbitt. I believe they are separate people. Councilman Horn: So we've got two totally conflicting reports on the Eden Prairie SuperAmerica. How do we make that a judgment? ' Acting Mayor Geving: Well, you don't. Councilman Boyt: There is another point Clark. Mr. Nesbitt was quite upset about the outside PA system. One of the conditions, I think the Council is ' working awfully hard to try and make this as little impact as possible and one condition is that you can't hear that off the site. If you can, then they have to change it. They have to always follow the conditions. If they don't, we can enforce them. Bob Wagner: I heard earlier that sound doesn't travel. Let me tell you, where I live, I listened to Prince's concert. That's a long ways. 1 Acting Mayor Geving: Here's what I would like to do. I have in front of me a petition and I want to make sure that these four areas have been covered by our staff and we have those comments adequately covered in the Planning Commission r notes to us as well as staff's. These four involve traffic. The estimated 800 cars from SuperAmerica plus cars from the proposed shopping center and possible restaurant. The Watershed. This entire development will drain into Lake Minnewashta. Third, the noise issue as a 24 hour business. And four, the sign which we haven't talked about yet this evening. That's the 45 square foot sign that SuperAmerica is proposing would ruin their landscape of the area. So those four issues are what has come before us here and we'll make copies for the Council. Now I want to make sure that from your standpoint, that you're comfortable with those four and that you have those four items covered Jo Ann. Jo Ann Olsen: We have covered the. Acting Mayor Geving: You feel that those four items have been discussed properly and adequately in our notes? Jo Ann Olsen: Yes. rActing Mayor Geving: The Watershed for example. How do you feel? Do you feel comfortable about that Gary? Gary Warren: The Watershed... Councilman Horn: Traffic analysis, you're comfortable with that? Gary Warren: Traffic, you mentioned that they were going to do some checking on the numbers tonight and I guess I'd like to see, they're going to get back to us tomorrow, to see to check those numbers. 73 50 1 City Council Meeting - Oct, ,ber 10, 1988 Acting Mayor Geving: I think the traffic is still 1 till a little hazy. The numbers. We're talking about 800 just on the SuperAmerica station. We have no idea how good their other numbers are. I agree with Bill on the noise issue. When we put a condition for noise and the only thing that's in there is that PA system, if the noise is a problem, we can shut them down. This is not unusual for a condition. These are conditions that we place. If there is any complaint, we follow up on it. I can tell you that. Gene Connor: The Eden Prairie gentleman mentioned garbage collection too. Acting Mayor Geving: That's a good 1 g point. Something again that I hadn't thought about and I wrote it down. I've got those 4 or 5 items. Hours of operation. 3.2 beer. Two clerks in the store. Refueling during the off hours. Noise, including the garbage truck and lighting. So these are all new issues as far as I'm concerned. Councilman Johnson: There was a question as to what's the difference between a permitted use and a conditional use. I think it's very simple. There's a list of 14 permitted uses for this neighborhood. The first one is a convenience store without gas pumps. If they did not have gas pumps, they were just putting in a convenience store, it would not come before the City Council. A permitted use, we don't even see it. A self service laundramat, that was there. We wouldn't see it. 1 Acting Mayor Geving: Isn't a car wash one of them? Councilman Johnson: Day care center. Shopping center. Health services. That's an accessory. If you put in an automotive service station, they can have a car wash as a permitted accessory to it. Although the service station in itself is a conditional use. Now, if you have something that's not on that list of 15 but it's on our list of 6 that are conditional uses, convenience stores with pumps. Service stations. Drive in banks. Temporary outdoor storage of merchandise. Standard restaurants. Bed and breakfast establishments. Any of those have to come before the Council and we place upon them some standard provisions that are within the ordinance which one that did get overlooked, which we see on almost all our conditional permits, is the noise one. You will not be audible off the facility. That's the difference between permitted and conditioned. You wouldn't be having this here is that was a permitted use and there'd be no room to speak at all, except for in the site plan. Acting Mayor Geving: What I'd like to do, is listen, I don't know who's over here who would like to speak on this item, but I'd like to hear some last minute closing comments from someone who would like to speak to the Council so that we can hear what your concerns are and we'll take it from there. This is your opportunity. Would you like to speak? Anyone in the audience at this time and we'll close this issue out. Ben Gowen: Ben Gowen's my name. We've been railroaded. The Plannin g Commission meeting the other night was published as, should we have a Super America. The first question was, should we put the Coca Cola bottles on the 1-11 outside of the building. The second question, will the lights hit the til neighborhood. I walked out. It was a pregone conclusion we were going to have SuperAmerica. Not should we have it but how we're going to have it so I think we've been railroaded and it's not my pleasure to see this happen. 74 I City Council Meeting = October 10, 1988 Betty Lang: I think Mr. Gowen has said it all. I 1r Gary Reed: I'm Gary Reed. I guess ou know me. I live at 24 Y 2471 West 64th Street. I'm kind of in the middle of things here. I can understand Mr. Zahn ' when he wanted to get the outtot sold so he could generate some capital to do some of the other improvements that he's agreed to do. On the other hand, I don't want to live next to an all night operation. I've been there for 38 1 years, 40 years, 50 years almost. We moved out there in '38. Time flies. I hate to say this, it's a public hearing but I don't usually lock my door. That's the kind of neighborhood it's been. I'm a little sad to see and hear some of the these comments about back traffic and really all night type of people. That's just some of my comments. I guess I would be happy with a daytime operation. ' Acting Mayor Geving: Okay, Gary thank you. It's now up to the Council. As far as I'm concerned, I have heard some things here in the last half hour that have certainly I would consider a reconsideration of this motion. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Horn seconded to reconsider the motion made on the Conditional Use Permit Request #88-10. All voted in favor and the motion ' carried. Acting Mayor Geving: At this point then we should reconsider this. I think ' since you made the motion Clark, I think that it would be appropriate. Did you make it or did you make it Bill? Councilman Boyt: I made it. Acting Mayor Geving: Do you want to make the motion to reconsider based on new ' evidence, that's fine. Councilman Boyt: We did that. Acting Mayor Geving: I know but now the new motion. Councilman Boyt: Okay, let's take these one at a time so they go or down in ' fairly quick order. That one condition be that there be no sale of 3.2 beer. So moved. ' Acting Mayor Geving: I think what I'm after here, since there are a number of issues that are being proposed, I would like to have than be placed before the Council and turned over to staff for direction and fact finding. I don't think that you can come up with just 3.2 beer or so forth but go ahead and proceed ' along that line. Councilman Boyt: Give me a second and then we can discuss something anyway. fL Anybody have a second to the 3.2 beer situation? Then it dies for lack of a second. Acting Mayor Geving: A procedure that I'd like to follow... vs 75 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 Councilman Boyt: I understand that but may I comment? 1 Acting Mayor Geving: But I don't want to make a motion on each item. , Councilman Johnson: I think that'd be more efficient Dale. ' Councilman Boyt: I think we ought to deal with this tonight. The people want to get going. It's not a matter of, in spite of what we might like to do, it's not a matter of we can't sit up here and deny the gas station. We can sit up here and make conditions to minimize the impact of the gas station but we can not, unless Roger corrects me, I don't think there's anyway in the world we can legally say you can't build. But we can say you have to build it given these conditions. Roger, is that right? Maybe an over generalization. Roger Knutson: It's a generalization but from the facts after that... Councilman Boyt: What I'm ro ' p posing Dale is that I don't know if these things are going to go or not but if we try to discuss than all in one lump, I don't think we're going to make it. So one of the ones that we've batted around a little bit is that given the concerns of the neighborhood, this isn't the only neighborhood that should have this concern but it's our opportunity to act on it. One issue was 3.2 beer. So I moved that we, as one condition, that there not be the sale of 3.2 beer or, of course, other intoxicating liquor. Councilman Horn: I'll second it for discussion. Question. Isn't that something that's reviewed on a yearly basis? 1 Councilman Boyt: The liquor license is reviewed on a yearly basis. This would be a matter of stating our intent. Councilman Horn: For this year? Councilman Boyt: Well, if we put it in as a condition, I gather it beyond this until some future Council would take it out ofthere, ifctheyecan do that. Councilman Horn: Is that true? Roger Knutson: Yes. 1 Councilman Horn: So we don't have to review it on a yearly basis if we put this in as a condition? Roger Knutson: If you put it in here, you can't sell 1 come back and ask to amend the condition. beer period until they Acting Mayor Geving: They have to come in with an application and request that they be granted it. But I see nothing wrong with putting it o .t in as a condition as the intent of this Council. Go ahead Bill. Councilman Boyt: Well, that's one. Shall we vote on that one Dale? Acting Mayor Geving: There's been a condition made to add condition number, I think we're up to 12. This will be number 12 and it's to deny the 3.2 beer, 76 1 City Council Meeting October 10, 1988 sale of beer at this location for this particular business. II 11- Councilman Boyt: Jay, when I initially brought this up, I was hoping there'd be some Council comment on it. It occurs to me that it was a condition that ' probably reflects one of my own biases more than it necessarily reflects logic. Acting Mayor Geving: Just remember, the applicant could come back in to a future Council and request it as part of this condition. It's part of this condition. It's condition number 12. All in favor. I Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Horn seconded to add a condition number 12 which states that there shall be no sale of 3.2 beer or intoxicating liquor. All voted in favor except Councilman Johnson who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 1. Councilman Johnson: I haven't been presented any evidence to tell me why that condition's a good condition. Acting Mayor Geving The condition passes. Number 13? ' Councilman Boyt: Okay, I would again introduce the motion that hours of operation be limited to no more than 5:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.. Acting Mayor Geving: I'll second that motion. Any discussion? Councilman Horn: Yes. I think we ought to discuss that in light of number 8 ' which is when we allow tank deliveries. I can justify an hour of closing if we improve the safety by stipulating the delivery times be made during this time. Councilman Boyt: Maybe they're more difficult. What's SA say? Acting Mayor Geving: Let's see how this one flies as item 13. The hours of operation being proposed is 5:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.. Any further discussion? iCouncilman Boyt: Let's find out when Clark's thing, what SA feels about those hours of delivery and what the neighborhood thinks. Acting Mayor Geving: We heard quite a bit of discussion. Several people from the audience suggested it. That the operations should cease at midnight. Councilman Johnson: Do you want deliveries after midnight? Is that what you're saying? Councilman Horn: The suggestion was made that it would be safer to have deliveries made at a time when they're not operational which makes sense. Councilman Johnson: I've seen that happen at other gas stations. L Roman Mueller: You can get the drivers to deliver fuel without. Wo old•you buy something from somebody that you hadn't monitored? There are no tank gauges on it. Besides that, you're still depending on the guy that's out there and the comment made by Mr. Nesbitt from the City of Eden Prairie as to how dependable 77 . , ._ ._ City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 II those drivers are, I put that to you. How dependable are there? I'd personally like to have somebody else there to watch it. I also think that Mr. Nesbitt from the building department in the City of Eden Prairie, I'm the one that he recognized from those other meetings because he and I went to a number of meetings over a couple of years. I don't think that is the safest operation that has it delivering after employees have left the store. Now you're going to say that we should keep the employees at the store after midnight which entails leaving the lights on which defeats the purpose of having the lights off so what we're doing is we're compounding the conflicts here. The tanker delivery is best when there's limited traffic which is at non peak hours. I can't argue with that. We have no problem with that. Acting Mayor Geving: Is this normal in your business? To have tankers in the off hours or in the evening hours? Roman Mueller: Evening hours, yes. As a matter of fact, late last week the ' store next to our office, they were delivering fuel I think about 7:00 to 7:30 at night. That's just after the rush hour in that area. Gene Connor: ...how many fire problems have you had with the tanker delivery? Roman Mueller: I don't know of any at all. The only type ever heard of is the tanker forgetting hoses or having extraf accident I have g product and the hose, some spilling out. We have solve that problem since then with what they call an overflow manifold that picks up that product if he has product still in the hose... Acting Mayor Geving: Clark, did you have any other question. The hours of operation being proposed, 5:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.. I Councilman Boyt moved, Acting Mayor Geving seconded to add a 13th condition that the hours of operation be limited to between 5:00 a.m. and 12:00 midnight. ' Councilman Boyt and Acting Mayor Geving voted in favor; Councilman Horn and Councilman Johnson voted against and the motion failed with a tie vote of 2 to 2. Councilman Boyt: The other condition is two employees at the station during all hours of operation. Two or more. ' Councilman Horn: Second. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Horn seconded to add a 13th condition there be two employees at the station during all hours of operation. Allhvoted i in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Boyt: If you have any others? I'm tapped out. Councilman Johnson: I've got two more. I Acting Mayor Geeing: There were two other issues. 78 , ICity Council Meeting ,= October 10, 1988 55 ICouncilman Boyt: Excuse me but there is one issue that we haven't dealt with at all really that Mr. Nesbitt brought up and that's the business about the UBC I 17 Hazardous Chapter. Gary, are you aware of the changes in the Code? UBC? Gary Warren: I'd have to check with our Building Department. They follow the I UBC. Acting Mayor Geving: I have two other issues here and one was the tanker refueling during the off hours. Did we rule out number 8? ICouncilman Horn: No, we left it. IActing Mayor Geving: We left it as is. Councilman Horn: 10:00 to 4:00, Monday through Saturday. I Acting Mayor Geving: It remains as amended. 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday. I Councilman Horn: I would like to also move that this whole approval be conditioned upon satisfactory review of the traffic studies and other questions that came up this evening. I think the other one was the skimmer operation that I you want to re-review. That our approval be conditioned on satisfactory review of those by staff. Councilman Johnson: Second. II Acting Mayor Geving: This is number 14. There's been a motion made to make - this a condition that satisfactory review of all the traffic studies that were I brought to light tonight and the second issue was the skimmer which we talked about but we did not see. I Councilman Johnson: It was a part of HSZ's site plan. The skimmer was in there. Acting Mayor Geving: Is that in the site plan? ICouncilman Johnson: HSZ's site plan. IActing Mayor Geving: But it's not in this particular proposal? Councilman Johnson: No, because it's not their skimmer. It's HSZ's skimmer. 1 Acting Mayor Geving: The reason that it's in there is because of this proposal. Councilman Johnson: No, it's required on all our ponds. ICouncilman Horn: It's more important because of this. 1 Acting Mayor Geving: I think this is a very important one because some of the things that were missing tonight were the traffic study issues. The numbers. The numbers don't add up. ,. ' I i79 City Council Meeting - October 10, 1988 ' 1 Councilman Johnson: I'll move for that. � Councilman Horn: Second. Councilman Johnson: Condition 15. Operations from 5:00 a.m. to 1:00 a.m.. Councilman Boyt: Roman, what's a dog gone hour? Roman Mueller: That's what I'm asking you. Councilman Boyt: I can tell you that, in all likelihood, what I would suggest you do is make this fail and then bring it back 2 weeks from now and you'll pass it without any hour limit at all because I'm confident, from 2 years of history as to how the third vote's going to go. Roman Mueller: We would like just to settle it right now. Councilman Boyt: Okay, you can settle it right now... Roman Mueller: By changing to yours, what you're trying to convince them to do, ' I'm trying to find some type of middle ground where they're not giving up 100% of their ground and you're not giving up 100% of your ground. ' Councilman Johnson: Plus he's getting his shift change. Councilman Boyt: I appreciate that but what we're talking about here is something that started out to be unreasonable to begin with at 5:00 to 12:00. I'd like to see your project go but I'll tell you that this is to the point now where I think you could swing the vote of these two gentlemen. It's 2 weeks and you got your hours, 24 hours a day or we settle it right now and for my vote, it's 12:00. You guys decide. Councilman Horn: Are you guys completely inflexible? I'd like to ask you that question. Councilman Johnson: You're denying him one shift change. That's what you're denying him. - You're denying the operation of one shift change by denying that hour. That midnight shift. For the guys that get off at midnight, as part of their customers that they want. Acting Mayor Geving: Then if he started at 6:00. Councilman Boyt: As I saw that traffic study, I didn't see that. Acting Mayor Geving: Gentlemen, we're hung up here. There's no question that I'm not going to change my vote. I want a 5:00 to midnight operation or less and I'm not going to change. Bob Wagner: SuperAmerica came to the first community meeting before the Planning Commission. It was addressed to the community, if you don't want the station, we won't even come in here. Now you've got 82 signatures that add'tess timing. I think if they would address their first issue. They said they wouldn' t even be here if the community didn't want it. They would certainly agree to the hours. 84 sa City Council Meeting (October 10, 1988 I �t Acting Mayor Geving: I've made my choice on this. It's 5:00 to midnight. I { hear that from Councilman Boyt. I hear two other deciding votes for different hours. As far as I'm concerned, we hung up on this issue and if we can't resolve it, then it goes to the 24th and the fifth council member, the Mayor will have to vote on it. Councilman Horn: Why don't you call up a question. Acting Mayor Geving: The question now before us, there has been a motion made and seconded. Would you read again your motion so we all understand. Councilman Johnson: 15 items. 1 through 14 that we modified earlier and voted on individually and the 15th is, 5:00 a.m. to 1:00 a.m. is the operation. Councilman Boyt: I thought that failed. Acting Mayor Geving: No we have not voted. It has been, the motion made and seconded. 5:00 a.m. to 1:00 a.m.. The motion is in front of us. Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve Conditional Use Permit Request #88-10 as shown on the site plan stamped "Received August 15, 1988" with the conditions 1 through 14 as previously amended and adding a 15th condition which reads the operation shall be between the hours of 5:00 a.m. and 1:00 a.m.. Councilman Johnson and Councilman Horn voted in favor. Councilman Boyt and Acting Mayor Geving voted against and the motion failed with a tie vote L_ of 2 to 2. Councilman Boyt: What's Roman want to do? Acting Mayor Geving: The motion fails on both counts. 5:00 a.m. to midnight is what I will accept. I'm just not going to go beyond midnight. That to me is, I just feel that the neighbor has to rest something out of this and this is a compromise that I'm willing to make. Councilman Horn: I think you're winning the war before the battle. ICouncilman Johnson: Because it's going to be 24 hours. Acting Mayor Geving: That's up to the Mayor to make that decision. Now, are there any other comments from any of the neighborhood before we close out on this issue. We are currently hung up on it. Betty Lang: I'd sure like to see Jay live where we live because we're right behind there. But he says that he didn't think that we'd be bothered. Acting Mayor Geving: Gene, how do you feel about this? Gene Connor: Midnight close. .r' Acting Mayor Geving: That's what I heard from the neighborhood. 85 64 r r City Council Meeting - 0O_..)ber 10, 1988 I Councilman Johnson: Erosion control plan shall be submitted and approved prior to final site. Has that been? Larry Brown: That was before the Council, I believe the council meeting before this. Councilman Johnson: So 8 and 9 are not applicable at all because those have been completed so there's no use in having than in a site plan review? Put a condition on there that's already been finished. The rest of them are pretty much straight conditions. You've got meet the conditions of the other conditions. I have no problem with the remaining 9. Acting Mayor Geving: There are 11 conditions being proposed that we adopt here tonight. Now there probably will be others as we proceed through the process. Do you have any other comments Jay? Clark? Councilman Horn: I wanted to add in here that we would not also give a building permit until we had seen evidence that the shopping center would be in place. Councilman Boyt: They agreed to that. Councilman Horn: I thought that was in here but I was mistaken. What was in here was they couldn't have a building permit until they had approved access permit for TH 7 and TH 41. Acting Mayor Geving: Clark, would you like to state condition 12 just the way you read it? Councilman Horn: Yes. I would like a building permit not be issued until development is started on the shopping center. Councilman Boyt: What do you mean? Because they already have to do utilities which is the roads and grading and all that sort of stuff. How's this different? Councilman Horn: I don't want to see the gas station as the first thing that goes up. Acting Mayor Geving: I think we have to look at the intent of Clark's t statement. His intent is that the gas station proposed by SuperAmerica can not be started until all the permits have been provided for building the retail shopping facility. That is the condition. Councilman Horn: And in fact progress starts. Acting Mayor Geving: Okay, does everybody agree to that? Condition 12. That's the intent. Councilman Horn: And staff will put in the proper words. Councilman Boyt: I tell you, I was going to, when I viewed this I was going to • ask for about twice as many trees but I think we've tapped you guys and we'll let it go. 88 - City Council Meeting Cctober 10, 1988 II T Ili Acting Mayor Geving: The comments that I had on this were exactly the 12th III comment and condition on the building of the retail center. I'm also very concerned about the drainage off the premises. I don't know if that has been adequately resolved. Do you feel that we've got this covered with a condition? IIGary Warren: I believe so. We've gone through it with the Watershed District. I Acting Mayor Geving: Erosion control shall be submitted to the City so item number 9 will cover your concerns? IGary Warren: Item 9 that we're talking about has actually been satisfied. Acting Mayor Geving: Now as we did previously, if there is any member of the community that would like to speak on the site plan. IBen Gowen: We've never seen it. I Acting Mayor Geving: Do you have some renderings you could show to the con- unity of your site plan? Mike Schlager, 6287 Chaska Road: Nothing was ever mentioned about this 11 pollution control, UBC or whatever it's called. Nothing was ever mentioned about this UBC that the gentleman from Eden Prairie was talking about. ' Roman Mueller: I'll try to be as brief on it as I can. It's the Uniform Building Code and it's administered by the International Conference of Building Officials. ICBO. I'm a past member of the ICBO. I keep up with it. The restrictions that he is dealing with are for hazardous sites. He's dealing with IItank farms. He's dealing with larger facilities. Service stations are not considered by them as hazardous facilities. They are dealing with exposed product tanks, not concealed, buried product tanks. He's talking about say you 1 were in a tank farm at a refinery. You have to build dykes around it now. Those are primarily the issues they're dealing with. They're not dealing so much with the service stations. Especially on this scale because it's also I brought back into square footages. Types of use, etc.. Some of the new regulations will govern service stations but it's not going to be any more stringent than it is now. It's unfortunate his misled everyone onto that. Keep in mind that in that 6 months, those laws will be changed drastically and that's II a misnomer. They are not laws. They are guidelines to be interpretted by the city officials as they see fit. The most stringent requirements that we have to follow are by the State Fire Marshall, the EPA, the MPCA. Their environmental I groups and I'd say after that, probably the, it's not the lifesaving codes. I'm falling off of my codes here. NFPA. National Fire Protection Association Codes. Those are the ones that are actually going to be restricting the most. II There's not even a guarantee that the new code sections will be approved and it's a 2 year process. Every 2 years they're updated. Acting Mayor Geving: I'd like to have Gary respond as well to Mike's question. 'I Gary Warren: I was just going to add, like he said earlier, when building permits or plans were submitted for the building permit, the building department Iwill utilize the latest codes.. . I 89 66 City Council Meeting - Oc Aber 10, 1988 • II Councilman Johnson: Whenever a new set of Codes comes out, they come before the City Council for the City Council to approve it as included in our ordinance as part of the City's Building Codes. We have approved the State Building Codes. We've approved the National Fire Codes. Gary Reed: I'm just wondering if the site plan includes the West 64th I cul-de-sac? Councilman Johnson: No. SuperAmerica only. ' Betty Lang: I'm wondering about the, you had mentioned the holding pond. Are those on-site holding ponds? Councilman Johnson: HSZ's holding ponds. Acting Mayor Geving: The holding pond is not part of this site. It's part of the overall site for HSZ. Maybe you could explain where those are. They're really off site. Gary Warren: They're on site as far as the storm water retention basins that t are required by the Watershed District and our standards. Councilman Johnson: HSZ's site, not SuperAmerica. I Gary Warren: Not SuperAmerica. Acting Mayor Geving: It's on the overall site plan Betty. ' Betty Lang: We have a lot of run-off that comes down into our back property. Is this something that's going to be coming from, will we be getting anything from this holding pond down through the back of us now? Larry Brown: Part of the plans and specifications which were approved either 2 ' weeks ago or 4 weeks, the Council tried to address that issue in helping get the drainage down to the wetland where it belonged. Maybe to hit on one of the Council's other concerns. The holding pond and exploring the catastrophic event, the Watershed District came back to me and said this is the best system that is available at this time. At this time, we have to rely on their authority and expertise. Acting Mayor Geving: Do they have a written report that's available that says just what you've stated? Larry Brown: I can get that. , Acting Mayor Geving: I think we should have that for the record. Betty y La ng: When you're talking the wetlands, does that mean the park area down behind us? Larry Brown: That's correct. Betty Lang: So it will be right in our backyard? 90 , - _ . sy;. City Council Meeting - ±tober 10, 1988 Larry Brown: The holding pond itself is immediately west of the proposed cul-de-sac in the Reed Addition. Ben Gowen: I didn't see a site plan yet. I Acting Mayor Geving: The site plan is here. We're still talking about the SuperAmerica site. Ben Gowen: Do we get a picture of it? How do we look at it? Acting Mayor Geving: Is this on the monitor? This is not showing. Would you turn that around Gary for the residents? We've seen it because we've got our ' visuals here. That is the site plan. That's all that we have. This is exactly what anyone who went to the Planning Commission would have seen. It has not changed. Any other comments? If not, we will call a question. We have in ' front of us 12 conditions. The addition that Clark made on the building permit regarding the shopping center. Is there a motion to approve the site plan with the 12 conditions? ' Councilman Boyt: So moved. Councilman Horn: Second. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Horn seconded to approve Site Plan Review pp ev ew ## dated August 15, 1988 with the following conditions: I #88-10 3 1. The site plan shall meet the conditions of the conditional use permit approval. 2. The wall signs shall meet the requirements of the ordinance. ' 3. No signage will be permitted on the gas canopy. 4. All rooftop equipment must be screened from view from any direction. ' 5. The trash enclosure must be totally screened. 6. The applicant shall not receive a building permit until MnDot has approved access permits for TH 7 and TH 41, the access points have been installed and the final plat and development contract for HSZ has been recorded with Carver County. ' 7. The revised plan shall be reviewed and approved by the Minnesota Department of Transportation prior to final site plan review and comply with their conditions. ' 8. Storm sewer calculations shall be submitted to the City Engineer for approval prior to final site plan review. ,; 9. An erosion control plan shall be submitted to the City Engineer for approval prior to final site plan review. ' 91 68 City Council Meeting - (ober 10, 1988 1 10. The applicant shall provide the City with a copy of the executed roadway easement for the portion of Lot 2, Block 1 which serves the westerly access for the subject parcel. 11. Utilities service for this property is contingent upon the HSZ site improvements. 12. No building permits shall be issued to SuperAmerica until all building permits have been provided to HSZ and development starts on the shopping center. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Acting Mayor Geving: We now go to item (b) which is a sign variance request. This variance request is to permit a 45 square foot ground low profile sign in the BN, Neighborhood Business District. I think we've all discussed this, or at least have read it thoroughly. We understand what is being requested here. Councilman Boyt: I move that we deny the variance request. There's no ' hardship. Councilman Johnson: Second. Roman's been before us before. He knows our ' standards. There's no reason to bring in a sign other than the signs that meet our standards. Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to deny the Sign Variance Request #88-12. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 1: Jo Ann Olsen: Did you want staff to pursue a ordinance amendment or just leave it the way it is? , Councilman Johnson: I think we still have to look at our sign ordinance. I'd like to form a sign ordinance committee to look at that. There are a lot of issues in our sign ordinance beyond just the filling stations that probably should be reviewed. Acting Mayor Geving: This item has been denied so the sign variance has to meet I City standards. Councilman Horn: I would also like staff or Planning Commission to review the Zoning for the BN District. To me it's very confusing and I think the course that we had to live with was set when we rezoned it to BN. It seems confusing to me. ...accessory use is a car wash when accessory for automotive service station when in fact that's a conditional use. I don't think this ordinance is proper and it should be redone. Acting Mayor Geving: I agree and we'll direct staff to do that. ' qf 92 , I � - v6'., Division of Ashland Oil, Inc. 1240 West 98th Street Bloomington, Minnesota 55431 4? ' 612-887-6100 I SUPERAMERICA July 17, 1989 I II Ms. JoAnn Olsen City of Chanhassen 690 Coulter Drive Chanhassen, MN 55317 Subject: SuperAmerica Store #4366 Highway 7 and 41 Chanhassen, Minnesota During the several conversations we have had over the P ast two weeks, it has become clear that the City has developed questions on what has been approved in terms of canopy 1 i decor. We request that our Occupancy Permit not be delayed while this question is put to rest. IThrough conversations with Randy Pederson, Bud Kaupp and myself, we have attempted to reconstruct the approvals I received from staff and the City Council. In these discussions the review of the flex-faced material on the canopy fascia with your past planner have come up along with reviews of your signage ordinance. There were no objections I to our having a lit canopy fascia as long as no signage was applied, i.e. , SA logo or verbage relating to SuperAmerica. The lighting of the fascia is reviewed under your lighting I guidelines and was shown not to cast light off of the development as commented on in your staff report of September 15, 1988. I 5)triACiA/( /4( / / I Ro n M. Mueller Regional Engineer -`- RMM/E I cc: M. J. Crellin G. K. Hill K. F. Kaupp II R. Pederson 11 -, v __J I JUL 18 1989 CITY OF CHANHASSEN I Don Ashworth August 9 , 1989 Page 2 Manager ' s Comment Staff finds few options in regards to the notification by Waste Management, Inc. As the Council is in the process of selecting a citizen' s committee to review this issue, staff cannot see recom- mending ceasing of the contract even though such will produce costs exceeding current budget. Staff would anticipate discussing this item during our budget work sessions. In the interim, the contract will be extended, at the higher monthly rate, unless staff is directed otherwise. 4:11 ' I I I I I I I I