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1f. Plans & Specs for Sidewalk/Trails along Laredo Dr and Carver Beach 1 I. CITY F. CHANHASSEN ‘;:o 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 53 ~~ _ (612) 937-1900 `�^ w 5City 17 Adminiattatt,r MEMORANDUM i ,n,00ter_ TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager �tr.____1_�'1• i - FROM: Gary Warren , City Engineer 1 Lkite Jt nr„.d to t'o; ici( DATE: September 22 , 1988 ' SUBJ: Authorize Preparation of Plans and Specifications for Sidewalks/Trails along Laredo Drive and Carver Beach Road Project No. 88-21 As summarized in the attached staff reports from Lo ri Sietsema , Park and Recreation Coordinator , the 1988 Capital Improvement ' Program budgeted for the construction of the Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive trails. The attached documentation and maps summarizes the recommendations of the Park and Recreation ' Commission concerning placement of these trails. We have recently received a quotation for construction of the portion of the Laredo trail in front of the fire station and the Chanhassen ' Elementary School. This should be able to be constructed this year . The remaining trail on Laredo Drive and Carver Beach Road needs to be designed. With the limited construction season remaining this year , and the time involved with bidding the pro- ject , in all likelihood these trails would be constructed in the spring of 1989. The crossing of Carver Beach Road at Redwing Lane and the request for additional stop signs would be looked at as a part of the design process and will be taken under advise- ment accordingly. The final decision will be brought back to the Council with the plans and specifications approval request. It is therefore recommended that the City Council authorize pre- paration of plans and specifications for trails/sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive and that the firm of Van ' Doren, Hazard, Stallings be designated as the design engineer. Attachments 1. September 23 , 1988 memo from Lori Sietsema. 2. September 7, 1988 memo from Lori Sietsema. ' 3 . September 14 , 1988 Park and Recreation Commission minutes. 4. Maps ( 2) . I I CITY of I . 1 N 1/4\fr CHANHASSEN , , y _, .. 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 i II MEMORANDUM I TO: Gary Warren, City Engineer FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator 1 DATE: September 23 , 1988 I SUBJ: Sidewalks Along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive The Park and Recreation Commission approved the construction of II sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and along Laredo Drive. The residents along these streets were invited to make public comment and the response was very positive. Generally, people have a II concern for pedestrian safety and encouraged the trail construction. II The Park and Recreation Commission unanimously approved the construction of a 5 ft. wide concrete sidewalk along the west side of Laredo Drive from Frontier Trail to Chanhassen II Elementary School. They also approved the construction of a 5 ft. wide concrete sidewalk along the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers Blvd. to Redwing Lane, and along the north side II from Redwing Lane to the Carver Beach playground. As the Commission is concerned with safety, they have advised II that a stop sign be placed on Carver Beach Road at Redwing Lane with a crosswalk. Additionally, they would like engineering to consider the best places for crosswalks, and possibly stop signs, along Laredo Drive. II I have scheduled this item on the September 26 City Council agenda for authorization of plans and specifications. If you II need additional information, please let me know. • 1 I II II t 5 CITYOF I . .. , .‘,r . , -• F CHANHASSEN i \ ei, , +w 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317(612) 937-1900 I .,r_, i I MEMORANDUM Park and Recreation Commission ITO:FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator IDATE: September 7, 1988 SUBJ: Proposed Trail/Sidewalk along Carver Beach Road 1 The 1988 CIP includes funds to construct off-street trails ( sidewalks) along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive. This is I roughly 4000 feet of trail which will serve to move people safely to parks, school, downtown, etc. , along two busy streets. 1 The Commission has conducted a long study of the trail issue. As walking and jogging/running ar:s the top participant exercises, trails/sidewalks are becomming increasingly more important in our community. These trail segments were included in the 1988 CIP 1 due to the concern for safety of children and adults who move about our community on foot or bike. I In discussing these two items , the Commission must determine the following issues: I - Which side of the street the sidewalk should appear; Which surface material is most appropriate; concrete or bituminous; and I - Types of use allowed. I I I I 1 • 3a. Park and Recreation Commission September 8 , 1988 Page 2 i CARVER BEACH ROAD The proposed trail/sidewalk along Carver Beach Road is approxi- mately 1500 feet from Powers Boulevard to Carver Beach Playground. The purpose of the trail is to keep pedestrians safe along a busy street where traffic picks up speed. Upon reviewing the site with City Engineer, Gary Warren, it was found that the existing right-of-way is 40 feet wide, of which 24 feet is paved roadway. That leaves 8 feet on each side, enough room to construct a sidewalk according to Mr. Warren. Due to topography, sight lines, utilities, and other obstructions, it was determined that the north side would be best suited for the sidewalk. Staff also felt that crosswalks should be ' placed so as to more easily allow pedestrians to cross Carver Beach Road more safely. As trail construction can occur within the existing right-of-way, no additional right-of-way is needed. ' Carver Beach Road is the frontage for most of the homes along that street and therefore a 5 foot concrete sidewalk would be the appropriate surface material. Had the trail been placed along side or rear yards, the bituminous surface would have been recom- mended. Types of uses to be allowed along trails continues to be a concern for many people. As motorized vehicles , i .e. motor bikes, three wheelers, etc. , would be conflictive with pedestrian use, such should be prohibited. Pets should be allowed along trails/ sidewalks , but only on leashes . It is suggested that as many types of non-conflicting uses be allowed as possible to get the best use from the trail system. These types of policy statements will be outlined in the City Code, however, staff felt that for the public' s benefit, such should be discussed. Recommendation 1 It is the recommendation of this office that a 5 foot concrete sidewalk be constructed along the north side of Carver Beach Road ' within the existing 40 ft. right-of-way. I 3b Park and Recreation Commission September 8 , 1988 Page 3 ' LAREDO DRIVE The proposed trail/sidewalk along Laredo Drive is roughly 2500 feet, from Frontier Trail to the Chanhassen Elementary. The sec- tion from Chanhassen Elementary to West 78th Street is being built by the HRA as a part of the downtown redevelopment project. The purpose of the trail is to safely move the children within walking and biking distance to the school. Laredo Drive is increasingly becoming a busy through street, no longer an area that can safely be shared by traffic and pedestrians . Laredo Drive has a 60 foot right-of-way, of which 28 feet is ' street pavement. This leaves 16 feet on each side of the street, plenty of room for sidewalk construction. City Engineer, Gary Warren, has indicated that due to topography and physical obstructions, the west side of the street would be the best location for the sidewalk. Additionally, the trail from West 78th Street to the elementary school is located on the west side, which should be continued if possible. Laredo Drive is the frontage for most of the homes along that street and therefore a 5 foot concrete sidewalk would be the appropriate surface material. Had the trail been placed along side or rear yards, the bituminous surface would have been recom- mended. ' Types of uses to be allowed along trails continues to be a concern for many people. As motorized vehicles, i .e. motor bikes, three ' wheelers, etc. , would be conflictive with pedestrian use, such should be prohibited. Pets should be allowed along trails/ sidewalks, but only on leashes . It would be suggested that as many types of non-conflicting uses be allowed as possible to get ' the best use from the trail system. These types of policy state- ments will be outlined in the City Code, however, staff felt that for the public' s benefit, such should be discussed. ' Recommendation ' It is the recommendation of this office that a 5 foot concrete sidewalk be constructed along the west side of Laredo Drive within the existing. 60 foot right-of-way. I PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 14, 1988 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7 : 30 P.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Sue Boyt, Larry Schroers, Carol Watson and Curt Robinson MEMBERS ABSENT: Mike Lynch and Ed Hasek STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator APPROVAL OF MINUTES : Watson moved, Schroers seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated August 9, 1988 as presented . All voted in favor and the motion carried . I PUBLIC HEARING: PROPOSED TRAIL CONSTRUCTION-CARVER BEACH ROAD. '-� Public Present : Name Address ' Robin Nordby 6801 Redwing Laura Bros 6771 Chaparral Joy Jarnvek - 6780 Redwing Lane Cathy Clem 1011 Carver Beach Road Paul Kreuter 1090 Carver Beach Road Dave & Leneda Rahe 1021 Carver Beach Road Sietsema: This item, as you may recall , the 1988 Capital Improvement ' Program, which is the park development fund includes funds to construct off street trails or sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive . I 'm going to treat these two separately and I ' ll go right to Carver Beach Road. The proposed trail along Carver Beach Road is approximately 1, 500 feet from Powers Blvd. to Carver Beach playground . The purpose of the trail is to keep the pedestrians that move along that street safe as the street is getting more and more busy as developments go in in that area . You may recall that over a year ago we had a petition to put a trail along that street by the people in that neighborhood . That petition was one of the things that pre-empted our developing the whole trail plan. Because we have seen that that is an unsafe area for children to be walking along the street, we went ahead and put that into our Capital Improvement Program for the 1988 year . I ' ve gone out to the site with the City Engineer and we looked at both sides of the street to see which would be the best side of the street to put the trail on. Due to topography mostly, we thought that if we ' re going to put it completely on one side, that the north side would be the better side. There are fewer obstructions there and the topo is flatter. Since that time I 've talked to some people in the area and the people that live on the south side of Carver Beach Road would like it to be on their side of the street and possibly cross at an intersection closer to the park. We can ' t have the trail going right up to the park on the south side because there ' s some I Park and Rec Commission Meeting IISeptember 14 , 1988 - Page 2 Itopo right across the street from the park that goes straight down . We would not be able to accomodate a trail . Because Carver Beach Road is the frontage road for many of the homes that are along that street, I 'm I proposing that we put in a sidewalk rather than a bituminous trail because it looks nicer and it will add to the value of those homes rather than to detract as some people would think that a bituminous may detract from a II home. It looks better and I don ' t think that the cost is going to be that much higher although if it is, I can bring that back to you. So my recommendation would be to put in a concrete sidewalk which would be 5 I feet wide rather than the 6 foot bituminous. Some of the other things that we wanted to talk about before getting into discussion is the types of use that would be allowed on that trail and although we have a lot of work to do on an ordinance that ' s going to outline exactly what can be I done, on this type of a trail pets would be allowed but on a leash only and no motorized vehicles would be allowed on sidewalks . Unless somebody else has some other concerns, I think that pretty much covers the things II that have come up so far . Therefore , it is staff ' s recommendation to construct a 5 foot concrete sidewalk to be constructed along Carver Beach Road and we can determine which side would be the best within the existing II 40 foot right-of-way. Chairman Mady called the public hearing to order . II Robin Nordby, 6801 Redwing Lane: My daughter is 7 years old and rides the bus and I would--really like to have her go use that park because it ' s the park that she ' s supposed to use. We proposed having a park in the II neighborhood and that was voted down or we didn' t get enough support for a small park in the neighborhood. They said to use the Carver Beach Park but she ' s forbidden to ride a bike on Carver Beach because of the traffic . II It ' s just unreal . The cars just zoom through there and you practically have to dive in the ditch so I think I can say that everybody in the neighborhood is supporting this. Everybody is pushing for it heavily to have something so the kids can get over to the park and there ' s just tons I of kids in the neighborhood. I think almost every house has small children in that age group. II Laura Bros , 6771 Chaparral Lane: I was the originater of the petition to get the trail made up to the park for a lot of the reasons that Robin just stated because it' s just very dangerous to walk on that road. It ' s very narrow and with the hills and we do have lots of problems with speeding . I We ' ve been in contact with the Public Safety Department and haven ' t gotten a whole lot of satisfaction from them either with controlling speed on that road so we definitely do not want our children on Carver Beach. One I of the things that Lori brought up and you talked about it before was , instead of running it all the way up the north side, we' d like part of it on the south side because we' re feeding off of the neighborhood. The neighborhoods are off on the south side so we would rather have it go part II of the way. The way I had set it up originally on the petition was to have it cross at Redwing Lane with the useage of stop signs . I felt that this would combat two problems with one stroke. By putting a stop sign in I at Redwing at the base of the hill so the cars coming down over the hill have to stop anyway so that will control the speed on Carver Beach Road and provide the safe crossing for our children . Because of the lay of the I Park and Rec Commission Meeting . September 14 , 1988 - Page 3 I land , that pretty much needs to go up the north side. I agree with Lori. on II that but I 'd like to see it from Powers Blvd. to Redwing Lane go on the south side and then cross over with a crosswalk and stop signs . Mady: One thing I 'd like to address , if possible, is if you have a comment on whether we should use concrete or bituminous blacktop, we 'd also like that brought up. ' Paul Kreuter , 1090 Carver Beach Road : As much as a trail on the north side of the road all the way to Powers would serve my family and I the most, I agree with the consensus so far simply because the number of children that live on the south side is so great and I think it would be a serious safety problem for trying to get the kids from the south side of Carver Beach over to the trail . Whatever will last is the best use as far as material goes . Laura Bros : I think we all support the sidewalk. I don ' t have a problem. I think a sidewalk would look better , much better than tar. Mady: The only concerns we would probably have would be cost and we can work on that. , Laura Bros : How about the stop sign issue? Is that going to be a problem? ' Mady: That ' s something we ' ll discuss . It ' s not something we have really a whole lot of say on but that will handled by the City Council . We can make a recommendation to them. Sietsema : If I could just make a comment . I did talk to Jim Chaffee about the request for the stop sign along Carver Beach Road and what he has indicated is that he can ' t move on anything until he gets the request in writing. I don ' t know if you ' ve got written to him what the request is , but he can ' t take the item to the Public Safety Commission until he has the request in writing . So that 's your first step. We can make a recommendation that a crosswalk go at a certain spot where we ' re switching sides and we can recommend that the sidewalk go in at that point too. But whether there' s a stop sign there is an engineering decision although 11 Public Safety will recommend on it too. The other thing is that, with the crosswalk and the trail going in, we ' ll have a much greater chance of getting the stop sign. If you just put a stop sign up to slow traffic , MnDot will not let you. That ' s not the purpose of a stop sign to just simply slow traffic. You ' re supposed to use other things to do that but if there ' s a crosswalk there , it makes more sense. That would give a good reason why there should be a stop sign there. With the trail and the crosswalk, you might have a better chance of getting it . Laura Bros: Another point I wanted to make too was that the bus stop for that area is right on Redwing and Carver Beach Road. The children stand on that corner for a bus stop so therefore, any children walking down, if they should from the other side of the street , a couple of them might go II to another district but if they have to cross the street , they could cross and they could walk down the sidewalk, cross at the crosswalk at Carver I II ' Park and Rec Commission Meeting _ September 14 , 1988 - Page 4 ' Beach and then stand at the bus stop. Boyt : We' re going to run into this again out on Minnewashta with the trail crossing sides of the street. I think stop signs are a good answer to that problem. ' Schroers : Currently there is a petition circulating in the neighborhood right now for a stop sign on Redwing anyway. There are several signatures on that petition. ' Robin Norby: Also , we'd like a safety sign that says Children Playing. Notifying that there is a park there so people that don' t know. Boyt moved , Robinson seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. ' Boyt : One of the things we haven ' t discussed is winter maintenance for the trails. That was something we need to discuss tonight. Mady: I 'd like to discuss winter maintenance once we get done with both items . ' Boyt : I think most of the people know who ' s going to pay for the trail . That the whole ei.ty pays for it and it ' s not assessed to each individual homeowner . There have been questions about that with Laredo . The City ' pays for it. Mady: To clarify that even further . The money that the Park and Recreation Commission and Park and Recreation Department spends for capital improvements and that ' s building totlot equipment , putting in ball diamonds, land acquisition, minor amounts of land , comes directly out of what is known as park dedication fees . Anytime a developer comes in and ' builds a home in the City of Chanhassen, they are assessed a fee of $425. 00 which goes directly into a park dedication fund . They have the option, if it ' s a large development , I guess it' s at our discretion, requesting the land dedication instead of the dollars but it always works out to equal. Either it ' s $425. 00 for land or $425. 00 so that ' s the only money we use for building parks and building trails . That ' s where our money comes from. We do not receive any money out of the City' s operating budget for building park items which is trails and ballfields and totlot equipment. Boyt : I 'm in support of the sidewalk and I 'd like to see the concrete sidewalk switching sides of the road with stop signs . Watson : . . .because it doesn ' t really make any difference in the City here ' specifically. If they want it on the south and going to the north and they want a stop sign. Robinson: I agree. Schroers : I agree . II Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 5 ' Mady: We' re all in agreement. We don' t have a whole lot of discussion on it. We're all in pretty much agreement that the trail needs to be placed on the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers to Redwing , have a crosswalk installed and then the trail continue onto the park on the north side of Carver Beach Road. I would guess they' re going to make a recommendation to the Public Safety Commission that we use a stop sign situation be installed at that location. I think a motion ' s in order . Boyt: So moved. Watson: Second . Mady: Just for the benefit of the public , the motion on the floor is to build a trail along. . . Boyt : A 5 foot concrete sidewalk constructed along the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers Blvd. to Redwing, a crosswalk and then the sidewalk would continue on the north side to the park with stop signs . Paul Kreuter : Could you add, with appropriate safety signs . ' Mady: In addition to the Public Safety Commission to install those. Boyt: Have you-gone to the Public Safety Commission with this? Laura Bros : We just started a petition for the south side for safety signs. Watson : I think it' s well that the trail crossing and our engineer can. . . especially the bus stop and the whole thing. . . .should make a real good case for putting a stop sign there . Boyt moved, Watson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to install a 5 foot concrete sidewalk along the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers Blvd. to Redwing Lane, a crosswalk and then continue the sidewalk on the north side of Carver Beach Road to Carver Beach Playground and to have safety crossing signs and stop signs . All voted in favor and the motion carried . Mady: The motion now Y� goes to the City Council with our recommendation and they' ll decide whether' or not it will be built . Sietsema : Actually, what will happen is that on the 26th I will hand this II recommendation over to the Engineer . It' s been approved by the City Council because it was approved in our budget so they will authorize preparation of plans and specs on the 26th. Those plans and specs will come back and they' ll have to approve those and authorize advertisement of bids . We' ll have to advertise for bids for 21 days. They' ll come back in November to accept the bid. It probably will not be, depending on what kind of winter it is , if they can still do construction, they will start it . Otherwise , it will be the first thing on the agenda next spring . Park and Rec Commission Meeting - IISeptember 14 , 1988 - Page 6 IPUBLIC HEARING: PROPOSED TRAIL CONSTRUCTION LAREDO DRIVE. Public Present: IIName Address I Sarah Unger 7406 Laredo Drive Pat & Mona Kerber 7489 Saratoga Circle Sunil Chojar 7480 Long View Circle I Richard Konerza 7461 Long View Circle Bruce Gamun 7405 Laredo Drive Earl H. Mertz 7510 Laredo Drive Greg Eidam 501 Laredo Lane I Tom Kottke 518 Laredo Lane Kathy Hagedorn 516 Laredo Lane Ken Groen 7329 Frontier Trail I Charles Littfin 7609 Laredo Drive Barb Edeskuty 406 Cimarron Circle Leah Lucas 410 Cimarron David & Trudy Schranck 506 Laredo Drive ILarry Beck 7401 Laredo Drive Mary Lucas 410 Cimarron Circle Linda Mady 7338 Frontier Trail I Sietsema : The proposed sidewalk, trail along Laredo Drive is roughly I 2,500 feet from Frontier Trail to the Chanhassen Elementary. The reason it doesn ' t go , we ' re not proposing it to go all the way to West 78th Street is because it ' s already in place to the Fire Station and HRA with the redevelopment , part of downtown redevelopment will be putting it in I along the school and hooking into the trails that up by the school that were just recently installed . The purpose of this trail is again to move people along Laredo Drive in a safe manner . The trails will be for I pedestrians . For bicycles but not motorized vehicles . Staff is proposing that we put in a 5 foot concrete sidewalk rather than the bituminous for the same reasons as we had for the Carver Beach Road . The existing right- of-way does allow for that type of construction. Again, City Engineer I Gary Warren and I went out to the site and looked at it and felt that the west side of Laredo Drive would be the appropriate side to have the trail on because we already have a section in place there and the topography and I obstructions were less on that side as well . Again, this is not an assessed project . This is an already funded project that comes out of already budgeted money'. Therefore, it is my recommendation that a 5 foot II concrete sidewalk be constructed along the west side of Laredo Drive within the existing 60 foot right-of-way. Mady: To clarify right-of-way questions , Laredo has a 60 foot road I right-of-way and the street right now is 25 so we have approximately 16 feet on both sides of the street there . I think at this time we ' ll call the public hearing to order on Laredo Drive trail and we ' ll handle this basically the same as we handled the previous one . Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 7 ' Sarah Unger , 7406 Laredo : I live right on the curve of Laredo. I see 100 II people use that road walking and riding and doing all that. I 'm amazed that nobody' s been hurt because that curve is so , you know the peitions . . . so I 'm in support of the trail . I 'm also in support that it' s a 5 foot cement whatever just because it will tie in the main residential neighborhood with the City and I think it is real important to the value of our homes as well as tying into the city. So I think it ' s real important. . . Leah Lucas : I live on Laredo and Cimarron Circle. I would be in support of a trail because all those children are required to walk to school and they walk in the road . It ' s dangerous for the children and it' s hazardous for the driver to have kids walking the streets. In the winter it's even worst because the snow is banked up on each side. The kids are walking on the banks, slipping in the road. I think we need the trail . Boyt : You like the sidewalk on the west side? ' Leah Lucas : The west side is appropriate because . . . Barb Edeskuty, 406 Cimarron Circle : I 'm also in favor of the sidewalk ' going on the west side. We' ve all got kids that have to walk to school and I don' t feel the road is a safe place to walk. Again , especially in the winter time and the sidewalk as opposed to the tar trail just because II of the looks . Tt would be nice to blend into the city. Bruce Gamun: I 'm a 16 year resident of 7405 Laredo Drive. I have no objections whatsoever to the sidewalk preferably being concrete . I just have some questions. I understand it' s funded. I do have the questions of how that will be maintained because concrete obviously will stand up better than the asphalt. The second question would be, what do you do with the snow on it in the wintertime and who ' s responsible for it and how can you use it in the wintertime? I think you said you ' re going to address that in a vote but I would think they' d want to know, like Carver II Beach people, they didn ' t comment and I certainly would like to know how we' re going to maintain it because if the property owners maybe today if it were there, the City would take care of it. Maybe tomorrow the homeowner would have to take care of it . It wouldn ' t affect me on my side, it would still be a concern of mine and my neighbors I 'm sure, it ' s a question that should be addressed . Larry Beck, 7402 Laredo Drive: I 'm definitely in favor of the sidewalk. Not the asphalt but the concrete . I guess the biggest question I had was I 've got about 250 foot of frontage so I 'm concerned about the maintenance in the winter . I know I 'm not going to be able to take care of that snow so that ' s a real concern of mine . Otherwise I think it ' s fine . Dick Konerza, Long View Circle and Laredo: My question is , what will be II the responsibility of the homeowner , financially, upkeep and all of that from now until after it ' s not being used? Before I favor anything , I 'd like to know what is our responsibility to that walkway? , Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 8 Earl Mertz, 7510 Laredo Drive : I 'm in favor of the concrete bit . I just wonder who how far is it from the roadway? I 'm concerned about my front yard getting hacked up and some trees that are probably in the way and how far would this be in from the present road? Are we leaving a boulevard here are we or several feet in the sidewalk and then the rest of my yard? I 'm concerned about how it hack up my property. Mady: We ' ll discuss that with the Commission presentation. You ' ll have an opportunity at that time, if you don' t get the response you ' re looking for, to ask another question . Mona Kerber : My name is Mona Kerber and my husband Patrick Kerber . My husband was up here and has gotten complete information. I don ' t know if we oppose or I 'm in favor of it. Our question is also the maintenance of it. Who ' s responsible because our driveway goes out into Saratoga Circle. We do not use the Laredo frontage and we also have a hill that has been landscaped. My husband came to the Village and got complete permission to landscape it. Put the timbers in . What are you going to do with the hill and the circle there? The curve around it, I agree it' s a very hazardous corner but what are you going to do with our hill? Who ' s going to , are you going to take it out? Are you going to put it back? Are you going to landscape it and John Mertz lives next door to us , they did not get a letter in regards to this. We spoke with him tonight and I 'm speaking on his behalf also . Part of the hill where we have the disconnecting with the timbers is part of his property now which means you' re going to be hacking that off . We 'd like to know how much we ' re going to lose of our hill? How much is he going to lose? Who ' s going to maintain it? Who ' s going to pick the garbage up? Right now we clean the garbage on Laredo . We pick up pop cans , school papers , everything on this street now and we have a walkway down there? Is the Village going to maintain that? The walkway is not that well maintained. We maintain it. Another question is , you ' re going to plow snow there. Where is the snow going to go when we have this large bank? Are we going to have to shovel the snow up on top of our hill or what do you do with it? We have a problem already down there with the snow on the corner. If it would be, we ' re in favor of the cement . We agree with the safety part of it but we also are concerned about our property and what are you going to do with our land and our lot? How far back are you going to go? Resident: Let me make one more comment and then I 'm really done. What I 'm hearing is that the biggest concern is maintenance . I personally don' t have a problem with maintaining the sidewalk but that ' s because I have a small frontage: I might make a suggestion that the City' s going to have to maintain the sidewalks within the City which extends down to the Fire Department and the school so the cost of maintaining the rest of the sidewalk down Laredo should be that much and since the use is really going to be for the public school and the children , that maybe you could , you know. . . Pat Kerber , 7489 Saratoga Circle: The sidewalk is fine but I think we should have got together first was where it was going to be. How much room it was going to take up . Who ' s going to maintain it and this before we get involved with do we want it or not. That seems to be everybody' s Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 9 ' concern . Thank you. , Sunil Chojar , 7480 Long View Circle : I have basically the same concern as before we started this debate. The lady mentioned that we don' t have room 11 on the east side of the road to put a sidewalk and it seems . . . (There was a break in the tape at this point in the meeting . ) 1 Mady: . . .other trails such as the Pond Park trail that' s adjacent to Kerber ' s property, there' s not a lot of reason to plow that in the winter ' possibly and maybe we want to use some of those trails that we' re proposing as cross country ski trails, things like that so not all of them are probably going to be plowed during the winter . We' ll decide on a one to one basis. I think we need to review each trail that comes in. It ' s been our intention all along that once we have a trail system started , that we will acquire a Cushman type of vehicle and have a park maintenance person traveling the trail system to pick up, sweep up the loose sand , II glass and large trash that exists in there but it ' s still going to be the homeowner ' s responsibly to pick up the few pieces of paper that fly into their yard. I don ' t anticipate the City having someone driving that trail everyday to pick that stuff up. I think there ' s concern on how wide the boulevard ' s going to be. If we put the trail right next to the street or we put it the full 16 feet away from the street . I don' t believe we ' re going to put it adjacent to the street unless we absolutely have no other choice . If there is a fire hydrant or a large tree and telephone boxes in the way and we have to go next to the street, we will but we want to keep it away from the street . That doesn ' t mean we have to take the whole 16 II feet either . I belive a 3 to 4 foot cushion is reasonable. It keeps the kids and the street traffic separate . It also allows for some piling of snow in small snow storms . Now obviously, usually in the winter we have a lot of snow here so there are going to be winters or probably just about every winter where we' re going to have to get a front end loader or a large snow blower up there to pull that snow away from the hills if we don' t have anyplace else to push it . What I 'm hearing from the Park and Rec Commission is that that ' s what we want to see done . We do have park maintenance people on staff and I think that ' s what their function should be in the winter . First on these trails and then to help out with the street maintenance crew with the rest of the streets after that and then finally the ice rinks . I believe someone raised the question about financial responsibility. I think that might also come into play with the liability. Who ' s responsible for things' on the streets? I don ' t have an answer to that but there is a case law on that. The City would not have any way of changing . . .exi.st with sidewalk liability. If there ' s a person that' s injured on a sidewalk, and I know there' s case law on that on what happens . I don ' t have an answer to that , sorry. Resident: What about if it' s in your right-of-way and not on our property? Mady: I don ' t know that . That ' s something that I would at least ask and get a clarification from our Attorney Roger Knutson when it goes to the Council . I. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 10 Sietsema : I talked to Roger about this in the past and his opinion is that, if someone gets hurt on the sidewalk, they can sue anybody. They can sue you, if it ' s in your yard or they can sue the City or they could sue both but generally the courts have been going , unless you have left something out there dangerous or there was something very neglectful , they have been going in favor of that you walk the trails at your own risk. You talk some of the repsonsibility for being out and about , being able to walk upon yourself and that ' s generally what the courts have gone with so he doesn ' t see that as a big liability problem for either the City or the people who are going to have the trails in front of their house . Mona Kerber : I have a question on that liability. Little kids like to walk on the retaining wall up there. What happens if those kids are walking the retaining wall , fall and hit their heads on the sidewalk? Are we responsible for those kids? Mady: It' s the same type of situation of just walking the sidewalk. Unless your retaining wall was in any way unsafe , grossly did it show that you were negligent for some reason , that child is still operating under their own discretion and you can ' t prevent someone, unless you ' re out there beating them every time they come near so , if you get to. . .make sure your property is as safe as it can be but not to . . . Each individual still has to act in a safe way and unless they can show that you were negligent , 1 you really don ' t have any financial responsibility I don' t see. Mona Kerber : The reason why, I was just going to give you an example . We had creosoled our wall to keep it . The children at the bus stop were told , don ' t sit on the wall and don ' t play on the wall . It ' s been creosoled. One mother called me at night and demanded that we pay for her child ' s brand new pair of pants because she sat on our wall . We did not ask her so now wouldn ' t she be a little hasty if her kid falls off your wall and hits their head on the sidewalk? . . . I told her to keep her kid off from our property. Mady: It ' s the same situation when they come and you ' re painting your house, either that or whatever, you can do everything you want and you still can ' t prevent kids from doing some things . We ' ll try to be reasonable. Resident : Has the Council already approved this? Mady: The Council approved our budget and this is a portion of our budget . However , the Council still has to review the plans and specifications and approve the bid letting process . Once the bids are let , they have to review the bids and approve the whole bid. Resident: Something just occurred to me, on the S kind of curve on Laredo , it ' s a speedway right now. If you put sidewalks , kids do not walk on sidewalks . I didn ' t when I was a kid. You probably didn ' t when you were a kid . 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AN Mom .....---• UM111 al:TA 4W/el OSP/ARI •i> NM NNW TO -7-/�'TZTT'T-1 �1 r I °',5 _ n l T Z --51 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 12 ' IIRobinson : Yes , there' s a stretch between Great Plains Blvd . and West 78th Street. Great Plains and Erie Avenue. I walk it every morning . The City plows it with some type of a front end loader I believe. Not right away but that' s another stretch that I 'd like to see included in that . That ' s I about the only one I can think of . Boyt : We have a new trail on Kerber Blvd . that' s directing children . I Sietsema: Let ' s just do it on all trails . Watson: Yes , I think we'd better stick to all trails otherwise we are 11 going to leave something out. Boyt : We can always exempt one later . II Mady: Okay, I 'd like to amend my motion to recommend to City Council to direct City Staff to plow all existing trails as early as possible in the II morning and that we handle exceptions to that on an exception basis . We will be making motions in the future on exceptions to that rule. Schroers: Just as a point of interest, I think that we want to recognize ' that the City, the street department ' s first obligation naturally is going to be to get the streets cleared and I have to believe that the trails are going to be secondary so I don ' t think it ' s reasonable to look out your window first th-ing after a snow and expect the sidewalk to be cleaned. It h` may take a while before they get to it but they will get to it . Boyt: I think we need to put paved trails so we don ' t do Chan Pond Park . Mady moved , Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City be responsible for the snow removal on all paved city trails as soon as possible in the morning and the Park and Recreation Commission will handle exceptions at a later date. All voted in favor and the motion carried . Boyt : I have another trail related item. We talked about pets being on the trails and at one point we talked about recommending a pooper scooper ordinance and I 'd like some discussion on that . Resident: I think we can be expected to pick up pop cans and paper but not other . . . Sietsema : We did discuss that at one meeting and I do have an ordinance that' s being worked on right now and that will be coming back to you . Mady: We did discuss at an earlier meeting an ordinance concerning pets in the city parks and the trailway system is a city park system. Right now the way the ordinance reads right now, what ' s on the books , pets are just simply not allowed in the city parks. That would prevent anyone from walking their dog on the city trail . Because of that , which doesn' t make sense in my opinion. You ' ve got to walk your dog someplace. We have made