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9. CUP to Locate Church in Rural Dist on Zoned RR, Westside Baptist Church I . . CITY OF q , I , ..., . CHANHASSEN v. 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 - ...N._-;,. -' ‘:;, I (612) 937-1900 , Mon hy City Adnfttsflft — 111 MEMORANDUM (2•:,11c3 ---- • TO: Planning Commission and City Council T.4e ,;t1n-ecd 11 Cmius3.viq FROM: Planning Staff ./..8, _ IIDATE: August 10 , 1988 -—- SUBJ: Westside Baptist Church Conditional Use Permit IThe attached proposal was tabled at the July 20 , 1988, Planning Commission meeting. The body of the report is the same as pre- II sented on July 20, 1988, with a new staff update and recommen- dation on Page 4 . II I I I I I I I I , II P.C. DATE: July 13 ,+ 1988 II CITY OF Aug. 17, 1988 C.C. DATE: Sept. 12 , 1988 UA7UAZ1I _CASE NO 88 9 CUP Prepared by: Olsen/v STAFF REPORT • ,ll PROPOSAL: Conditional Use Permit for a Church to be Located Outside of the Urban Service Area Z Q V LOCATION: 6801 Hazeltine Boulevard 1.L APPLICANT: Westside Baptist Church I/ Q PRESENT ZONING: RR, Rural Residential District ACREAGE: 10 . 04 gross 8 . 42 net ADJACENT ZONING AND LAND USE: N- RR; single family S- RR; single family and vacant E- RR; vacant QW- RR; Minnewashta Regional Park WATER AND SEWER: Not available to the o site. PHYSICAL CHARAC. : The site contains a Class A wetland on the II W north portion of the property and the Lake . �-- Ann Interceptor is installed through the site. There is a steep slope on the southern portion of the site which is heavily vegetated. 2000 LAND USE PLAN: Residential Low Density I . ... ... mii mil , i,r..... ..„.7.010...- ,,:."-tel 282:11l600( MIN UM Mill . NE MI ...:, ;- ), iktk linpi.)*0 _,, e t, ., r. . ... __. 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LON,g II Westside Baptist CUP July 13 , 1988 Page 2 APPLICABLE REGULATIONS ' Section 20-594 allows churches as a conditional use in the RR, Rural Residential District. Section 20-259 regulates the following conditions for churches outside of the MUSA line: a. The location of two acceptable drainfield sites must be provided on the site. b. The individual sewage treatment system must be in confor- mance with Chapter 19 , Article IV. c . School and daycare accessory uses are not permitted ' unless approved by the City Council . Section 20-258 regulates churches generally requires: I a. The site shall be located on a collector or arterial roadway. , b. The structure must be setback 50 feet from all property lines . c. Parking areas shall be setback 25 feet from streets and non-residential property and 30 feet from residential property. d. No more than 70% of the site be covered with impervious surface and the remainder of the site is to be suitably "landscaped in conformance with Article 25 . REFERRAL AGENCIES Building Inspector Attachment #2 Fire Inspector Attachment #3 , Asst. City Engineer Attachment #4 DNR Attachment #5 , ANALYSIS The applicant is proposing to construct approximately a 5 ,000 square foot church on property zoned RR which is located outside of the MUSA line. Therefore, the site would have to provide two acceptable septic system sites to support the church. The site is adjacent to State Highway 41 and will have one access point from Hwy. 41. There is a large Class A wetland located in the II . W estside Baptist CUP ' July 13 , 1988 Page 3 ' northern portion of the site and the Lake Ann Interceptor is being constructed approximately through the center of the site. There is a large stand of mature vegetation on the south portion ' of the site with a steep slope towards the north. The proposed church is meeting the required setbacks for a church ' and is providing adequate parking. Although the site is not in an industrial, commercial or multiple family district, staff is still recommending that the parking area be paved with a bitumi- nous surface due to the high amount of traffic that will be using the parking area. Staff is also recommending that the parking area be curbed with bituminous curbing rather than the normally required concrete curb. The applicant has not provided any addi- tional landscaping to the site other than the existing vegeta- tion. As part of the conditional use permit, the site plan is required to provide landscaping as stated in Article 25 . This includes perimeter landscaping, interior lot line landscaping and landscaping of the parking area and building. Since it is such a large site with only a portion of it being developed, staff would agree to landscaping only the southerly portion of the site where ' the parking and church is proposed. The site plan meets all of the requirements as far as parking, lighting and lot coverage. ' Since the property is located outside of the MUSA line, the site has to provide two acceptable septic sites approved by the city' s soil consultants , Dr. Machmeier and Mr. Anderson. The applicant has not provided the city with two recommended septic sites and ' the appropriate soil borings at this time. The reason the appli- cant has not yet provided this information is because they are pursuing with -the Met Council and with the city the opportunity ' to hook into the Lake Ann Interceptor which is located through the site. The applicant wishes to connect to the Lake Ann Interceptor rather than installing a septic system at this time ' and then hooking into the Lake Ann Interceptor in the future. Before the conditional use permit can be approved there must be two approved septic sites on the property. In speaking with the Metropolitan Council, it was stated that a MUSA line amendment to allow the church to hook into the Lake Ann Interceptor would not be viewed favorably unless the septic system was failing or that ' due to the construction of the Lake Ann Interceptor and other physical features of the site, two septic system sites could not be located. The Met Council is writing a letter to this effect which will be handed out at the Planning Commission meeting. The ' applicant has submitted letters from a soil consultant stating that there are no acceptable sites for a septic system on the property. Staff has visited the site with Mr. Anderson and has ' found that there are areas outside of the construction limits of the Lake Ann Interceptor and located in the tree area south of the church that could be used as septic sites. Staff is i Westside Baptist CUP II July 13 , 1988 Page 4 requesting that the applicant provide information showing where sites can be provided. Staff is not convinced that there are no acceptable sites and that the church cannot be supported by a septic system. Drainage, Grading and Utilities In his attached memo, the Assistant City Engineer covers grading, ' drainage and other engineering issues for the proposed church. RECOMMENDATION Until the applicant submits the proper soil information regarding soil borings and septic site locations, staff cannot recommend action on the conditional use permit. Two acceptable septic sites must be provided before the site can be permitted to be developed. Therefore, staff is recommending that the Planning Commission table this item until the applicant provides the required soil boring data locating two acceptable septic sites on the property. PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION ' The Planning Commission unanimously recommended tabling the con- ditional use permit review until the applicant provided staff with proper soil data which locates two acceptable septic sites . STAFF UPDATE 1 On August 8, 1988, Drs . Machmeier and Anderson visited the Westside Baptist Church site to determine the suitability of two septic sites . The applicant provided data on a site located bet- ween the church and wetland and on a site located in the forested area south of the church ( see amended site plan) . Drs. Machmeier and Anderson have verbally confirmed that the two sites are acceptable and that additional areas for septic sites are available. They have provided a letter with their comments (see Attachment #14) . ' Staff also visited the site with the DNR Forester to determine the impact of locating a septic system within the forested area (Attachment #12) . Alan Olson stated that the woodlot was in need of thinning and that removing some trees for a septic site would be beneficial. MnDOT reviewed the site plan and stated that an access permit from the Highway Department would have to be received prior to installing the proposed driveway (Attachment #13) . As stated in the body of the previous report, the applicant is ' meeting the setback, height, lighting and parking requirements of i I , Westside Baptist CUP July 13 , 1988 ' Page 5 the Zoning Ordinance. The parking area is recommended to be lined with concrete curb ( see Engineer' s report) . The applicant is also required to provide screening between the vehicular access areas and right-of-way ( Section 20-1190 , Zoning Ordinance) . Since it has been confirmed that the site has two approved septic sites, the conditional use permit meets the specific conditions for churches and churches outside the MUSA line (see Applicable Regulations) . The location and activities of the proposed church will not negatively impact surrounding uses or traffic patterns . The use meets the standard conditions for conditional use per- mits. ' PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION - August 17 , 1988 ' At the August 17, 1988, Planning Commission meeting, the appli- cant questioned whether or not the city could enforce the 50 foot front yard setback from a roadway easement. The applicant felt ' that since it was not a dedicated right-of-way that the setback would not be required and that the parking area and the church could be located closer to the roadway easement and a septic site could be located outside of the forested area and closer to ' the church. Staff stated that they felt that the 50 foot setback could be enforced but that if the Planning Commission wished, staff would confirm this with the City Attorney. The Planning ' Commission asked the applicant if they wanted to table action until the setback issue could be confirmed, or if they would prefer the Planning Commission to act on the site plan as pro- , posed. If a new site plan was proposed by the applicant they would have to go through the process again. The applicant stated that they would prefer the item be tabled until the issue could be resolved. Therefore, the Planning Commission unanimously ' recommended tabling action on the conditional use permit for locating a church outside of the Metropolitan Urban Service Area. ' STAFF UPDATE Staff confirmed with the City Attorney that a 50 foot setback from a roadway easement could be enforced by the city. The defi- nition of a setback in the Zoning Ordinance is as follows: "Setback means the minimum horizontal distance between a struc- ture and the nearest property line or roadway easement line . . . " Therefore, the required setbacks of the Zoning Ordinance have to ' be maintained from roadway easements. Staff has sent a letter to the applicant stating that the 50 foot setback would have to be maintained and if they wished to still amend the site plan to contact us. Upon confirming that the 60 foot roadway easement shown on the site plan had been recorded with Carver County, staff found that Westside Baptist CUP July 13 , 1988 Page 6 the 10 acre subject parcel, subdivided off of a 35 acre parcel , , has been recorded without city approval. Therefore, the subject site is still part of the parent parcel . In order for the 10 acre parcel to be legally separated from the 35 acre parcel a preliminary plat will have to be processed. Rather than requiring the applicant to receive preliminary plat approval at this time which would further postpone construction of the church, staff is recommending that approval of the conditional use permit be conditioned upon the applicant receiving prelimi- nary plat approval within one year. If the applicant does not wish to plat the property, then it would have to be considered one 35 acre piece rather than a 10 acre parcel and an amended site plan would have to be submitted showing the whole 35 acre parcel. ' RECOMMENDATION Staff is recommending the Planning Commission adopt the following ' motion: "The Planning Commission recommends approval of Conditional Use Permit #88-9 for a church to be located outside of the MUSA with the following conditions: 1 . The applicant must receive preliminary plat approval for the ' subject site by September of 1989 , unless the property owners agree to have the parcel remain as one undivided lot. 2 . The two approved septic sites must be staked and preserved prior to receiving a building permit. 3 . Provide a landscaping plan which provides screening between ' the vehicular access areas and abutting right-of-way as required in Section 20-1190 of the Zoning Ordinance. 4 . The applicant shall receive an access permit from MnDOT prior to installation of the church driveway. 5 . A fire lane must be installed for the entire length on either the east or west side of the building. The fire lane, at least 20 feet in width, must comply with the City of Chanhassen' s requirement for an all weather surface meeting urban standards . Whichever side is chosen, a clear access must be maintained by designation of a "Fire Lane" . 6 . The main driveway shall have "No Parking Fire Lane" signs installed. 7 . The applicant shall provide a revised grading plan with storm sewer calculations which verify the preservation of the pre- developed runoff rate and all storm sewer capacities as part of the final review process . 1 ' Westside Baptist CUP July 13 , 1988 Page 7 8 . The developer shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the Watershed District permit. ' 9 . Wood fiber blankets or equivalent shall be used to stabilize all disturbed slopes greater than 3 :1. ' 10 . The developer shall be responsible for daily on and off site cleanup caused by the construction of this site. 11. All erosion controls shall be in place prior to the commen- cement of any grading, and once in place shall remain in place throughout the duration of construction. The developer shall be responsible for periodic checks of the erosion ' controls and shall make all repairs promptly. All erosion controls shall remain intact until an established vegetative cover has been produced. 12 . A revised plan which shows bituminous parking and curbing shall be submitted as part of the final review process. ' PLANNING COMMISSION ACTION The Planning Commission unanimously recommended approval of the ' conditional use permit for the church to be located outside of the Metropolitan Urban Service Area with the conditions as recom- mended by staff . ' CITY COUNCIL RECOMMENDATION Staff recommends the City Council adopt the following motion: ' "The City Council approves Conditional Use Permit Request #88-9 for a church to be located outside of the MUSA with the following conditions: ^ 1 . The applicant must receive preliminary plat approval for the subject site by September of 1989, unless the property owners ' agree to have the parcel remain as one undivided lot. 2 . The two approved septic sites must be staked and preserved ' prior to receiving a building permit. 3 . Provide a landscaping plan which provides screening between the vehicular access areas and abutting right-of-way as ' required in Section 20-1190 of the Zoning Ordinance. 4 . The applicant shall receive an access permit from MnDOT prior to installation of the church driveway. 5 . A fire lane must be installed for the entire length on either the east or west side of the building. The fire lane, at Westside Baptist CUP July 13 , 1988 Page 8 least 20 feet in width, must comply with the City of Chanhassen' s requirement for an all weather surface meeting urban standards . Whichever side is chosen, a clear access must be maintained by designation of a "Fire Lane" . 6 . The main driveway shall have "No Parking Fire Lane" signs installed. 7 . The applicant shall provide a revised grading plan with storm sewer calculations which verify the preservation of the pre- developed runoff rate and all storm sewer capacities as part of the final review process . 8 . The developer shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the Watershed District permit. 9 . Wood fiber blankets or equivalent shall be used to stabilize all disturbed slopes greater than 3 :1. 1 10 . The developer shall be responsible for daily on and off site cleanup caused by the construction of this site. 11. All erosion controls shall be in place prior to the commen- cement of any grading, and once in place shall remain in place throughout the duration of construction. The developer shall be responsible for periodic checks of the erosion controls and shall make all repairs promptly. All erosion controls shall remain intact until an established vegetative cover has been produced. 12 . A revised plan which shows bituminous parking and curbing shall be submitted as part of the final review process . ATTACHMENTS 1 . Sections from City Code. 2 . Memo from Building Department dated June 15 , 1988 . 3 . Memo from Public Safety Director dated July 8, 1988 . 4 . Memo from Asst. City Engineer dated July 6 , 1988 . 5 . DNR response dated June 21, 1988 . 6 . Letter from applicant dated June 13 , 1988. 7 . Letter from Donald Schneewind dated June 27 , 1988 . 8 . Letter to the Met Council dated June 20 , 1988 . 9 . Application. 10 . Letter from Metropolitan Council dated July 1, 1988 . 11. Planning Commission minutes dated July 13 , 1988. 12 . Letter from DNR Forester dated July 27 , 1988 . 13 . Letter from MnDOT dated July 25 , 1988 . 14. Letter from Machmeier/Anderson dated August 9, 1988. 15 . Planning Commission minutes dated August 17 , 1988 . 16 . Planning Commission minutes dated September 7 , 1988 . 17 . Plan stamped "Received August 10 , 1988" . ' § 20-257 CHANHASSEN CITY CODE C ) Sec. 20-257. Wholesale nurseries. The following applies to wholesale nurseries: ' (1) The site must be on a collector street or minor arterial as identified in the compre- hensive plan. (2) The minimum lot size is five(5)acres. IStet, (3) All storage and yard areas as well as buildings must be setback one hundred (100) feet from public or private road right-of-ways and five hundred (500) feet from an adjacent single family residence. (4) The site must be located along a collector or minor arterial as identified in the comprehensive plan. ' (5) All outdoor storage areas must be completely screened by one hundred(100)percent opaque fencing or berming. ' (6) Hours of operations shall be from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., Monday through Saturday only, work on Sundays and holidays is not permitted. (7) Light sources shall be shielded. 1 (8) No outside speaker systems are allowed. (Ord. No. 80,Art. V, § 9(5-9-1(6)), 12-15-86) 1 Sec. 20-258. Churches—Generally. The following applies to churches inside: ' (1) The site shall be located on a collector or arterial roadway as identified in the comprehensive plan or located so that access can be provided without conducting ' traffic through residential concentration. (2) The structure must be set back fifty(50)feet from all property lines. I (3) Parking areas shall be set back twenty-five (25)feet from streets and nonresidential property and thirty(30)feet. (4) No more than seventy(70)percent of the site is to be covered with impervious surface ' and the remainder is to be suitably landscaped in conformance with article XXV. (Ord. No. 80,Art. V, § 9(5-9-1(7)), 12-15-86) Sec. 20-259. Same—Located outside MUSA line. The following applies to churches located outside the Metropolitan Urban Services Area line: (1) The following must be provided for review: ' a. Location of two(2)drainfield sites. b. Two(2)soil borings on each drainfield site for a total of four(4)soil borings. c. No percolation tests for drainfield sites where the land slope is between zero and ' twelve(12)percent. 1174 k�4:,:..:d'.�f r9Gq'-r,^: ieLi eOu�La:- - ,f:�• t>,+; ; iY -'aimx�i•8:a..:•:+...a.: • tr:.ei.raa .u .igd ZONING § 20-263 d. One (1) percolation test per drainfield site where the land slope is between ' thirteen(13)and twenty-five(25)percent. (2) Areas where the land slope exceeds twenty-five(25)percent shall not be considered as a potential soil treatment site. (3) The sewage treatment system must be in conformance with chapter 19, article IV. (4) School and day care uses accessory to the church use are not permitted unless approved by the city council. (Ord. No. 80, Art.V, § 9(5-9-1(7)), 12-15-86) ' Sec. 20-260. Private stables. The following applies to private stables: (1) Stables shall comply with chapter 5, article III. (2) Stables must be located a minimum of two hundred(200)feet from wetland areas. (Ord. No. 80,Art. V, § 9(5-9-1(8)), 12-15-86) Sec. 20-261. State licensed day care centers. 1(_ The following applies to state-licensed day care centers: 1 (1) The site shall have loading and drop off points designed to avoid interfering with traffic and pedestrian movements. (2) Outdoor play areas shall be located and designed in a manner which mitigates visual and noise impacts on adjoining residential areas. (3) Each center shall obtain all applicable state, county, and city licenses. (Ord. No. 80, Art. V, § 9(5-9-1(9)), 12-15-86) Sec. 20-262. Hospitals and health care facilities. The following applies to hospitals and health care facilities: (1) The site shall have direct access to collector or arterial streets, as defined in the comprehensive plan. (2) Emergency vehicle access shall not be adjacent to or located across a street from any residential use. (Ord. No. 80, Art. V, § 9(5-9-1(10)), 12-15-86) Sec. 20-263. Recreational beach lots. The following minimum standards apply to recreational beach lots conditional use in ' addition to such other conditions as may be prescribed in the permit: (1) Recreational beach lots shall have at least two hundred(200)feet of lake frontage. 1175 ...yam.:2. ....,.k: -.:a:+xdrekk"��rt=rftir:'�M».,a44�.s.xL ;.rxr►t.... r-v,.;nciaw+G.vxs.--x-.. t:n:ra+ts:: - _ .. ""' - ! '-1:-.. _ .,.a._ • _ . "' i CITY OF CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: JoAnn Olsen, Assistant City Planner FROM: Steve A. Kirchman, Building Inspector ig:11C� ' DATE: June 15 , 1988 SUBJ: 88-9 CUP (Westside Baptist Church) ' Assuming R & D Soils Consultants ' (Don Schneewind) site eva- luation is correct, a building permit can not be issued without a letter from Metropolitan Waste Control Commission authorizing ' connection to existing sewer line. The usual SAC determination letter from Metropolitan Waste Control Commission will also be required. Erosion control measures to protect nearby waterways should be outlined by applicant. 1 I 1 I CITY OF 1 a 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Jo Ann Olsen, Assistant City Planner FROM: Jim Chaffee, Public Safety Director 1 SUBJ: Westside Baptist Church DATE: July 8, 1988 1 I have reviewed the site plan for the proposed Westside Baptist Church and the following items will be required: 1 . A fire lane must be installed for the entire length on either the East or West side of the building. The fire lane, at least 20 feet in width, must comply with the city of Chanhassen' s requirement for an all weather surface meeting urban standards. Whichever side is chosen a clear unobstructed access must be maintained by designation of a "Fire Lane" . 1 2 . The main driveway shall have "no parking fire lane" signs installed. Please contact me if you have any questions regarding these requirements. 1 1 1 i 43 1 1 , CITY OF f_ rA l CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 ' (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM ' TO: Planning Commission FROM: Larry Brown, Staff Engineer DATE: July 6 , 1988 SUBJ: Conditional Use Permit for Westside Baptist Church Planning File No. 87-5 CUP, Westside Baptist Church ' This site is located on the east side of State Highway 41 approximately one mile north of State Highway 5 . The 8. 42 acre ' site is composed of a rolling topography with a grove of mature trees along the southerly border of the site and various scat- tered mature trees throughout the entire site. Sanitary Sewer Municipal sanitary sewer service is not available to the site. ' The plans accurately show the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission 36-inch diameter interceptor going through this par- cel. The plan proposes a sanitary sewer service hook-up to this ' interceptor. This site is outside of the Metropolitan Urban Service Area boundaries which were set by the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission (MWCC) . At the date of this report , no evi- dence was given by the applicant that would permit the applicant ' permission from the MWCC to connect into the interceptor. It is assumed at this point that the site will have to be served by a septic system. Because the location of the septic sites may ' change the entire plan , the septic system sites should be ana- lyzed prior to preliminary approval. Staff is therefore recom- mending that this item be tabled until this issue can be resolved. The septic system site should be reviewed by the City' s consultant , Mr . Machmeier. Watermain Municipal water service is not available to the site at this time. Therefore, the applicant shall have to develop on-site ' sources. I Planning Commission July 6 , 1988 Page 2 Roadway ' The applicant has shown the driveway access for the proposed parking lot consistent with the suggested alignment for the suggested future extension of Lake Lucy Road. It should be noted that the extension of Lake Lucy Road may be hindered due to the protected DNR wetland adjacent to the suggested right-of-way for Lake Lucy Road. The applicant shall submit for approval by the City Engineer a set of calculations verifying that adequate sight distance exists ' for the access onto State Highway 41 prior to final site plan review. An access permit by the State of Minnesota will be required prior to the commencement of any construction on site. ' Due to the anticipated traffic volumes from the site, it is recommended that the parking area be paved and lined with a bitu- minous curb as a minimum. Grading and Drainage The grading plan shows a minimal amount of grading along the southeast side of the parcel to create the proposed church pad. The proposed grading will require the removal a portion of the existing grove of trees which borders the southerly property boundary. The proposed grading plan does not address on-site retention. A revised grading plan and calculations which verify that the predeveloped runoff rate has been maintained should be submitted to the City Engineer prior to final site plan review. Erosion Control Similarly, erosion controls should be addressed as part of this revised submittal. If the Planning Commission chooses to approve the site, the following conditions apply: Recommended Conditions 1 . The applicant shall provide a revised grading plan with storm sewer calculations which verify the preservation of the pre- developed runoff rate and all storm sewer capacities as part of the final review process . 2 . The developer shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the Watershed District permit. 3 . Wood fiber blankets or equivalent shall be used to stabilize 11 all disturbed slopes greater than 3 :1 . • Planning Commission July 6 , 1988 Page 3 ' 4 . The developer shall be responsible for daily on and off site cleanup caused by the construction of this site. 5 . All erosion controls shall be in place prior to the commen- cement of any grading, and once in place shall remain in place throughout the duration of construction. The developer shall be responsible for periodic checks of the erosion controls and shall make all repairs promptly. All erosion controls shall remain intact until an established vegetative cover has been produced. ' 6 . A revised plan which shows bituminous parking and curbing shall be submitted as part of the final review process . 1 1 I . . , I I 1 .., 0 .. To O4/1i seo From / ,..., d - - , -. 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CCM; 1 I -#5 III F Westside Baptist Church 6oz t%42M0.11 6801 HAZELTINE BOULEVARD P.O.BOX 631 CHANHASSEN,MINNESOTA 55317 (612)474-1419 PASTOR BRYAN PIKE June 13, 1988 City of Chanhassen, Upon application for Land Development Westside Baptist Church is requesting your permission to hook-up to the metro waste sewer line that is running right across our land. We have consulted with a Installer/Designer named Donald soil Schneewind about the possibility of soJL borings for the two septic sights required for this application and have been informed by him that there is no suitable place to bore because of the disturbance to the property by the metro waste sewer line that is going in and the building sight as well. When. we were purchasing the property we were informed by 44'r _g„3/1- of Met. Council that we could be considered as a exception and allowed to hook up if our city would submit such a request for us. Mr. Schneewind is willing and will be sending you a letter to confirm the problem with a septic system on our property. I hope this letter explains why we have not submitted the septic requests by the city and if you have any questions please contact me. Sincerely, - - Bryan Pike, Pastor ' 1 11585 110th Street Cologne, MN 55322 II June 27, 1988 Pastor Brian Pike I P.O. Box 631 Chanhassen, MU 55317 II City of Chanhassen Re: Property at 6801 Hazeltine Blvd - I Dear Sirs, R & D Soil Consultants was retained by Westside Baptist Church to I conduct soil borings and percolation tests to install an onsite septic system. After reviewing the site plan and architects proposed site for the II system, it was determined that the sites that were previously selected have been compacted by vehicle traffic and no longer suitable for the II septic system. We were also informed that extensive sewer work is being done in the IIarea and the remaining sites available would be excavated. R & D Soil Consultants feels that the site remaining north of the property is not suitable because of the high water level and the II existing pond. The property to the south of the proposed building has too great of slope for a mound system (approx. 16%) . The Chanhassen City Ordinance 10-B requires two suitable sites for II onsite septic sewage treatment and with the information given there are not two sites available. s II pec:tful abmyfted9 'onald A. Sthneewin d J I R & D Soil Consultants 1 1 CITY OF CHANHASSEN II^�'irtin JUN2 fTB8 I CHANHASSEN PLANNING DEPT. 1 1 CITY OF ,, _,,A . CHANHASSEN 1 \ , ,N, `\ -,a t 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 I (612) 937-1900 - IJune 20 , 1988 I ' Ms. Pat Pahl Metropolitan Council Mears Park Center Building I ' 230 East Fifth Street St. Paul, MN 55101 I ' Dear Ms . Pahl: On June 13, 1988, the City received an application for a con- 1 ditional use permit to permit the Westside Baptist Church to construct their church in the rural district off of Hwy. 41 (see Attachment #1) . Pastor Brian Pike has been in contact with you ' discussing the possibility of hooking into the Lake Ann I Interceptor which runs through the church property. The reason for this request is to permit him an alternative to two septic systems on the lot. Due to the alteration of his lot from the I construction of the Lake Ann Interceptor and construction of the church and parking lot, it may be difficult for him to locate two acceptable septic system sites . Attached is a letter from Pastor Pike stating that a consultant, Donald Schneewind, has reviewed 1 the site and determined that two septic sites are not possible because of the disturbance to the property. Pastor Pike is therefore requesting that the chuch be allowed to hook into the ILake Ann Interceptor. Pastor Pike has stated that in his discussions with you that it I has been stated that there is a possibility of the church hooking into the Lake Ann Interceptor. To proceed with the conditional use permit application, the city needs to have confirmation from the Metropolitan Council that this in fact is true and whether or 1 not we should initiate a land use plan and MUSA line amendment. Please contact me as soon as possible with your comments and Iplease feel free to call if you have any questions . Sincerely, I Jam Jo Ann Olsen IAssistant City Planner JO:v 8 I LAND DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION CITY OF CHANHASSEN II 690 Coulter Drive Chanhassen, MN 55317 (612) 937-1900 I APPLICANT: WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH OWNER: ADDRESS T 6801. Hazeltine Blvd. ADDRESS I Chanhassen Mn. 5531.7 Zip Code Zip Code II TELEPHONE (Daytime ) 474-1419 TELEPHONE REQUEST: I Zoning District Change Planned Unit Development Zoning Appeal Sketch Plan I Preliminary Plan Zoning Variance Final Plan Zoning Text Amendment Subdivision 1 Land Use Plan Amendment Platting II Metes and Bounds Conditional Use Permit Street/Easement Vacation ite Plan Review II - Wetlands Permit PROJECT NAME WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH I PRESENT LAND USE PLAN DESIGNATION REQUESTED LAND USE PLAN DESIGNATION II PRESENT ZONING r , REQUESTED ZONING 1 USES PROPOSED Church Site ISIZE OF PROPERTY '`rocs - 10.04 AC. 'Jet - 8.42 AC. LOCATION (-801 -iazeltine Blvd. Chanhassen, :In. I REASONS FOR THIS REQUEST To Build a Church Building. I LEGAL DESCRIPTION (Attach legal if necessary) I 1 City of Chanhassen Land Development Application Page 2 ' FILING INSTRUCTIONS : This application must be completed in full and be typewritten or ' clearly printed and must be accompanied by all information and plans required by applicable City Ordinance provisions . Before filing this application , you should confer with the City Planner to determine the specific ordinance and procedural requirements applicable to your application . FILING CERTIFICATION: The undersigned representative of the applicant hereby certifies ' that he is familiar with the procedural requirements of all applicable City Ordinances . Signed By iel- 4... Date —85- Ap licant _ ' The undersigned hereby certifies that the applicant has been authorized to make this application for the property herein described . Signed By �il/-°-�"- .�(-.- y�.•-�%( J 2/``.ter C Date ( - 3 g'�' Fee Owner G Date Application Received Application Fee Paid ' City Receipt No. * This Application will be considered by the Planning Commission/ ' Board of Adjustments and Appeals at their meeting. 1 1 y;�A • 7.f %'-e\..•..r,.-.. �.eWil.St.�J:.. .. ; d.;:'ie�' - v.,-. - I II i That part of the Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 4 , Township 116, Range 23, Carver County, Minnesota, described as follows: Commencing at the northeast corner of said Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter; thence South 01 degrees 03 minutes 05 seconds East, assumed bearing, along the east line of said Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter a distance of 524.15 feet to the point of beginning of the land to be described; thence North 89 degrees 01 minutes 05 seconds West, a distance of 377.21 feet to a line hereinafter referred to as line A; thence southwesterly along said Line A a distance of 896. 18 feet to the south line of said Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter; thence easterly along said south line to the southeast corner of said Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter; thence northerly along said east line to the point of beginning. Line A is described as follows: Beginning at a point on the south line of said Northeast ' Quarter of the Southeast Quarter distant 685.31 feet westerly from the southeast corner of said Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter; thence northeasterly, a distance of 2064.94 feet, to a point on the east line of said Southeast Quarter of the Northeast Quarter distant •587.25 feet northerly from the southeast corner of said Southeast Quarter of the Northeast Quarter and said line there terminating. Subject to a 60 foot permanent easement for street and utility purposes over and across the above described parcel . The center line of said easement is described as follows: Commencing at the southeast corner of the Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 3, Township 116, Range 23, Carver County, Minnesota; thence North 01 degrees (13 minutes 05 seconds West , assumed bearing, along the east line of said Northeast Quarter of the Southeast Ouarter a distance of 00.00 feet to the point of beginning of the center line to be described; thence northwesterly a distance of 107.54 feet along a nontangential curve concave to the northeast , having a radius of 292.08 feet and a central angle of 21 degrees 05 minutes 46 seconds, the chord of said curve having a hearing of North 45 degrees 43 minutes 12 seconds West; thence North 35 degrees 10 minutes 24 seconds West tangent to last curve a distance of 122.20 feet; thence northwesterly a distance of 237.96 feet along a tangential curve concave to the southwest, having a radius of 381 . 13 feet and a central angle of 35 degrees 46 minutes 22 seconds; thence North 70 degrees 56 minutes 46 seconds West a distance of 190.00 feet and said center line there terminating. Subject to easement for State Highway No. 41. GROSS AREA • 437,247 sq. ft. 10.04 AC. m • NET AREA • 366,905 sq. ft. 8.42 AC. AP All fAk 2;:11:11 �l101 IIt METROPOLITAN COUNCIL Mears Park Centre, 230 East Fifth Street, St. Paul, MN. 55101 612 291-6359 July 1 , 1988 Jo Ann Olsen Assistant City Planner City of Chanhassen 690 Coulter Drive, P.O. Box 147 ' Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317 Dear Ms. Olsen: ' I am responding to your letter to Pat Pahl of our staff on the request of Pastor Pike for the Westside Baptist Church to connect a proposed church to the ' Lake Ann Interceptor. Pat has taken a position as deputy director in another department at the Council and, I am sorry, is no longer handling these issues. I, however, had an opportunity to talk with Pat regarding her conversation with Pastor Pike. ' As you know the site of the proposed church is located outside the Metropolitan Urban Service Area and is covered by the Lake Ann facility agreement. Therefore, it will not be brought into the MUSA. In Pat's conversation with Pastor Pike, the pastor asked about the possibility of a future connection to the interceptor. She indicated that sometime in the future this would be possible. She did not know the church was intending to proceed in two months. When she learned about it, she called Pastor Pike and informed him that the connection at this time would not be consistent with the Lake Ann agreement. ' The Council has no evidence that an onsite system could not be installed to serve the church and an exception will not be granted at this time. ' A possible solution is for the church to proceed with the installation of an onsite system. If the system fails in the future, the church could hook up to the Lake Ann interceptor at that time. If the city ordinance requires two onsite system locations and only one can be sited, the city might consider a variance and require only one. I hope this is helpful and apologize for any confusion that might have ' occurred. Sincerely, Roger Israel ' Director of Research and Long Range Planning RI/pb ' cc: Pastor Brian Pike JUL 121988 CITY OF CHANHASSEN II CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION ' SPECIAL MEETING (7 \ JULY 13, 1988 Vice Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7 : 35 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Ladd Conrad, Annette Ellson, Steven Emmings, Brian Batzli and David Headla MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Wildermuth and Tim Erhart STAFF PRESENT: Barbara Dacy, City Planner; Jo Ann Olsen, Asst. City Planner and Larry Brown, Asst. City Engineer PUBLIC HEARING: ' SUBDIVISION OF 7 ACRES INTO TWO LOTS AND ONE OUTLOT AND TO CREATE A NEW 64TH STREET CUL-DE-SAC ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF WEST 64TH STREET AND HWY. 41, REED II ADDITION, GARY REED AND HSZ DEVELOPMENT Conrad moved, Batzli seconded to table this item until July 20, 1988 . All II voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING: CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO LOCATE A CHURCH IN THE RURAL DISTRICT ON PROPERTY ZONED RR, RURAL RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT AND LOCATED ON THE EAST SIDE II OF HWY. 41 APPROXIMATELY ONE MILE NORTH OF HWY. 5, WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH. Public Present : 1 Name Address Brian Pike Westside Baptist Church Jim Dalhart Architect for Applicant Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report. Headla : You say they looked at the site. Did they take borings or is that just an opinion? Olsen : We did not take borings at that time. There was a big hole being ' dug with the Lake Ann Interceptor so he did get an idea of what the soils were like and then the topography. There was area to work, it was just that we had not been given any information to prove there was a boring site out there . Emmings : Is the applicant here and does he want to make a presentation at this time? II I I ' . Planning Commission Meeting II4, July 13, 1988 - Page 2 IBrian Pike: Yes, I have a few things to say about this . We' ve given her one soil boring. Actually two that are in this area. The pond is over I here isn ' t it? Doesn ' t it come across this way? Olsen: It comes along the bottom. IBrian Pike: So is this 150 setback correct with this pond over here? Olsen: Yes. IBrian Pike: We gave her two in this area and she ' s asking for a second site. This sewer that' s coming through right through here is going down 52 feet and the man some time ago asked for permission to move their dirt I over this line down into this area over here. We had given him permission to do that so when I brought, you see a letter in there from Mr . Schneewind from R & D Soil Consultants . He said this area, it looked I like the water table, and he also looked at this hole that' s right here, and the water table he said looked too low for over here. Then he said the only other spot is up in this forest area which is a mature forest II land and we have done everything we could to keep them from knocking those trees down with this septic line coming through. In fact, the forest land that you see right here used to go out to here and they took out stuff that they told us they were not going to take out. They' re going to lk: supposedly compensate us for that . We' re trying to save these trees and she 's asking us to put, to do a soil boring up in here. We ' re saying that we don ' t want to put it up in there. I ' ve sought some advice and some I counsel from other folks and they say that it is a possibility up here although Schneewind said he thought that the grade was too steep so we didn 't pursue this. Also, because we were seeking , as the application says , an opportunity to hook up to the Metro Waste Sewer line that' s I running right through the middle of our property. Originally when it became clear that they were going to come right through the middle of our property, we said at that time we would like to hook up. I spoke to a I lady named Miss Pahl . That was some time ago . Not two months as the letter states. When I spoke with her she said there could be something considered called an exception . That ' s the first time I heard of an I exception. To get an exception she said you had to go through your City but it won' t be likely that you' ll get this exception until it' s proven that you' ve actually purchased the property and you ' re getting ready to build so we waited because we did not know how fast we were going to I build. How fast we were going to grow. How soon we needed to move from the location that we needed to move from here in Chanhassen . So we waited and it began to look like, as we did some searching and research, that we I could build . We found someone that was willing to finance and we found a builder that thought that we could put the building up so we plan on proceeding. Slow but sure and we ' re ready, at least it looks like financially, and the builder has designed this design for us . This Ihooking up to the sewer line is the only thing that ' s holding us , it looks like to us . For us to put a septic system up in this tree growth, it ( means knocking out some mature trees that are not going to be replaced tvery easily. When we know we' re going to hook up to the sewer line in maybe 1995, is what Miss Pahl first said to us because it' s 2000 before they open up to anybody outside the sewer line. Is that correct? I Planning Commission Meeting July 13, 1988 - Page 3 , Dacy: At minimum. Brian Pike : She mentioned to me 1995 and again , it seems to us that with this thing going right through the center of our property, that we should be an exception to this rule. We discovered that we would use less than one household, one residential household. The urban sewer line is just the other side of the pond from us . We' re not real far from that sewer line and there isn't anyplace that's undisturbed except that little 150 foot stretch she shows there between the construction limit and the pond . Again, that is low land over there so it would probably require a mound system which again to us is a little bit more money for a temporary system that will hold us until the year 2000. Emmings : I guess the point is that if the Metropolitan Council has written us a letter that says they' re not going to allow you as an exception. They' re not going to let you hook up. Brian Pike: The Metropolitan Council has not relayed exactly that firm of a position to me. Emmings : Let me tell you, I 've got a letter dated July 1, 1988 . 1. Brian Pike: I 've got the same letter right here. Emmings : It says in one paragraph , the Metropolitan Council has a letter that says an outside system could not be installed to serve the church and I an exception will not be granted at this time. We can' t get, the Planning Commission is not going to get in a wrestling match between you and the Metropolitan Council or between you and the staff . You ' re going to have to satisfy our staff that you've got some way to dispose of this sewage. If you can hook up, fine. It makes sense but if you can ' t, we ' re going to have to have the on-site septic systems. There can 't be any two ways about it. There' s no third alternative that I can think of and as far as all the stuff you' ve told us so far, this is all how, the problems you've had getting the Metropolitan Council to see the light to do what you want to do and that really doesn' t concern us. There ' s nothing we can do about II that . Brian Pike: About Met Council? Emmings: Right. Brian Pike: Well Met Council has mentioned another option to us that hasn ' t been mentioned. In here there 's no mention of our other soil borings that' s given to you . I 'm having a struggle definitely and I don ' t feel like I 'm having a struggle so much with Met Council . Met Council is telling me that it' s up to this staff . Emmings: To do what? Brian Pike : To recommend to them or not to recommend to them and they' re saying they can' t recommend because of those two possibilities that they 11 1 ' Planning Commission Meeting July 13, 1988 - Page 4 C disagree with Mr . Schneewind about as being possibilites . Emmings: We hire professional consultants because we don' t know about ' sewage disposal and we rely on them for their technical expertise and if it comes down to a showdown between Mr. Schneewind and our City retained experts, traditionally we follow what our experts tell us. That' s what we hired them for. I have to ask the staff if this Mr. Machmeier and . . . Olsen : Jim Anderson. ' Emmings : And have they said that they think it' s possible that they can have two on-site systems? Olsen : Right, but we need the information, the soil borings, to prove it one way or the other . ' Emmings : And who do you get that from? Olsen: The applicant. ' Brian Pike : We gave them the two . We haven ' t heard any comments about the two because they're still waiting for the other ones up in the trees . So when it comes down to that subjective of being in the trees , who is that makes the determination on whether or not those trees come out? Is that you? Them? Us or the Council or who? ' Emmings: I suppose if that' s your alternative site, there wouldn' t be any reason it would have to be disturbed . If you could use the primary site where there are no trees , you may never need the secondary site. You may never need it at all or you may never need it until you ' ll be able to hook ' up into the Lake Ann Interceptor . There' s no reason to think right off hand that you' re ever have to take out a tree if your primary site is built correctly and maintained correctly. That would be what I would say. ' Olsen: And Mr. Anderson commented that they wouldn ' t be clearcutting a huge area . ' Emmings : Why do they have to cut anything? Olsen: They don' t. That's just an alternate site but if they do . ' Brian Pike : So you said two acceptable sites , at least that ' s the way we were reading the site. ' Olsen : Receive the soil borings. Brian Pike : So they need soil borings in the trees . Is that an issue by which we would be tabled and stopped at this point? IEmmings : We can ' t process your application. I think what staff is saying I - to us is we can ' t process this application without having all the information in . The information isn ' t in . 1 Planning Commission Meeting July 13, 1988 - Page 5 Brian Pike: So two soil borings? Emmings : I don' t know. Whatever they require. Brian Pike: Two soil borings. The other soil borings, we've never had them mentioned in all of this . Were they not acceptable? Have they been checked? ' Olsen : What we need are the two sets of soil borings with the site shown on the plan, which you have not done. You haven 't really shown. Those are two soil borings that were taken previously. Brian Pike: We showed where they were on the site plan. Olsen: Right . What we need is to have on the site plan to show the area where that site is proposed. We need to have that area staked out on the site so the soil consultants can go out there and see exactly where it is . II Brian Pike: But we did give you two and we did mark those two on the site plan . ' Emmings : That' s not what she said. She said she needs to have defined on the site plan an outlined area where you plan to build your drainfield and show them where the borings are and that and then show the alternative. ' Brian Pike: We did that didn 't we? Emmings : Have you seen it Jo Ann? ' Olsen: We've gotten two soil borings shown. Emmings : It sounds to me like there ' s a communication problem here . Have you come into the staff office and just said, here' s our plan. What more do you need so we can complete our application? ' Brian Pike : Yes . Emmings : Have you done that? ' Brian Pike: Yes . Olsen : He ' s been explained what ' s needed . Brian Pike: It 's just been this issue about the trees. I guess I ' ve talked to other people in the City, on the City Council and they believe that up in those trees , those trees shouldn' t be taken down so I 've been hedging and saying that this is an exception. I want my city to make an II application. Met Council says they can' t do anything until our City Staff makes an application to them. Emmings: What 's your understanding? Olsen : What' s happened is that there has been a . . . IF Planning Commission Meeting July 13, 1988 - Page 6 ' Brian Pike: A block. ' Olsen : A communication block. What I 've been saying is we need , for us to go to Met Council , the only way that they' re going to accept it, that Land Use Plan Amendment, is if there ' s no way that he can provide septic sites so I 've asked the applicant some information to confirm it. He has been under the opinion that maybe we don' t even need to do that. ' Emmings: It's pretty clear to me though, what needs to be done here is you have to identify the two sites that you propose for the septic. Get your soil borings in so the staff can look at them with our consultants and we can make an informative decision then as to whether or not we 've got sites here that can be used for the septic system or not. Batzli : I think what he' s trying to say is he submitted one set of ' borings and if that area is not acceptable, he doesn' t want to have to go and take a second set up in the trees . I think what he' s actually trying to ask the staff is, have they examined those soil borings so is there at least one primary site available. 11 Brian Pike : Because Met Council says if there ' s not two, then we are a hardship case. They've also mentioned another thing to us about a land swap that they' re willing to do and that we weren ' t informed of until just the other day. Emmings : It seems to me that all this stuff ought to be done before we look at it. It seems to me that that can ' t be resolved at the Planning Commission . Ladd , I 'm going to ask for your guidance on this . It would seem to me that we' re looking at issues that we don ' t normally look at . ' This stuff usually gets ironed out before we get it and that' s further evidence to me that the thing ought to be tabled until everybody has their act together and then we can look at it. What do you think? ' Conrad : Yes . We need the two separate sites . Brian Pike: We' re asking to go hook up to the Metropolitan Council . We ' re saying that the septic sites to us aren ' t necessary and they' re not necessary because, as we look at the site and as she went and looked at the site, it is a site that is a hardship case and it would be considerd as an exception. Emmings : But then go convince them that you should be hooked up and then ' bring your plan back and that ' s fine. We won 't worry about the septic sites . Brian Pike : Convince who? Emmings: The Metropolitan Council . Brian Pike : It' s these two that I have to convince . 1 Planning Commission Meeting July 13, 1988 - Page 7 ' Emmings : Okay, staff first and then Metropolitan Council . You ' ll have to II do that but we can' t do anything. That ' s preliminary to coming in here . Headla : You ' ve got to do step 1 before you move to step 2. Dacy: The soil borings need to be done period. Conrad : We don ' t know if the first borings are good or bad and you 're saying that you don' t want to do the second ones until the first ones are in and I think we need to see both. We can go to Metropolitan Council and II say it' s a hardship. I guess I would have a hard time saying that there' s a hardship if you have to take down a tree and I think we' re as sensitive as any community in the Twin Cities when you talk about taking down trees . We want to preserve trees like you do but if you were asking me if taking down 1 or 2 trees or something is a hardship that would require us to go to Met Council and say this is a real hardship, I think I would have a hard time saying that. If you said we have to level 4 acres of property, that may be a hardship but I 'm not hearing that . You' re not giving us enough information to make any kind of decision. You' re not providing staff with the minimum that our ordinances require for us to process anything so I think it 's just best, before we set direction and say we agree with you that it is a hardship or we disagree. I think you really have to get all sets of information into us. Brian Pike : I guess when they asked us for two sites and we looked at all the disturbed property from Metro Council ' s line going through, we couldn' t see two sites and so that was the basis for applying to Met Council for a variance. Conrad : Our staff is saying there are. With their technical advice they're saying there are two sites so I think between you and your , whoever ' s helping you do the engineering and the city staff, I think you've got to narrow in on that. Jim Dalhart : I 'm working with the church. I couldn' t find in the zoning ordinance but I believe it does say that you need city approval to remove trees in the forested areas . You basically answered that you look at 4 acres as large quantities? Conrad : No . I made that stuff up. Don' t hold me to the actual words that I used. The key, and we spent some time making sure that in the unsewered area we don' t want to pollute. Therefore , our new ordinance, and it' s relatively new, requires two alternative sites. A primary site and if that one fails somewhere down the line , we want to know that there ' s a secondary site. We don' t want to encourage pollution. Whether it be from a house or a church or industry. That ' s the reason for that ordinance and it 's relatively new and we ' re doing things that I think deserves the environment that your church would like and the community likes . That' s what Chanhassen is asking for right now. We have to know ( if there are those alternative sites . Once we know that, then we can 44- proceed. If we know that there' s not a secondary site available, we can react to that but right now we don' t know and that ' s why we' re saying we can' t even provide you any advice right now. We need to know if there's a - 11 , Planning Commission Meeting IIJuly 13, 1988 - Page 8 C 1 secondary site . _ That' s sort of the next step that you ' ve got to go through with our staff and your engineering people and come back to us again . 1 Jim Dalhart .. Part of the church ' s concern is simply. . . This is the first unit building and a site in the trees they would have to pump probably up IIto it. That ' s another reason the church was relunctant to go that way. Emmings: You have to only identify it on the site. You don ' t have to use Iit but you have to identify it. Conrad : But you would be forced to use it if the first system failed . I Brian Pike: According to Met Council , then they would look at it if our first system fails. Is that right? Is that what you read on that letter? I Olsen: If your system fails and there ' s an alternate site, I believe that they would wish that you use that. 1 Emmings: You don' t know how they' re going to be looking at that. Met Council doesn' t exactly stay constant on issues either and you get 10 years down the road and you have a failure in your septic system, they may have a whole different idea that yes , they would accept you as an ,C exception at that time. Maybe at time you 'd be pushed out even further but there 's just no way to know. I Headla : Why are we spending so much time talking about Met Council? We aren' t even part of it. Until they satisfy the staff requirements, you don ' t do anything so listen to the staff and then they' re going to work with you and if there isn ' t a site available, then you 've got their total I support in going to Met Council . But by doing an end run on them, I think you' re just delaying the activity. IBrian Pike : Sir , we' re not trying to do an end run on them. Headla: That 's what it appears when they say you've got to do these 1 things and Met Council says you ' ve got to have their support. Brian Pike: The way this thing proceeded was, I was told to come up with a letter from a soil consultant that said there isn ' t two sites . I went I and brought a soil consultant out there. He looked and he said , well there isn ' t. So I sent the letter in and they she went out there with the City Engineer and they looked over the property. They didn' t do I believe I any test . No tests so on his opinion, it came down to two opinions and I can understand taking the City opinion. I wasn ' t trying to do an end run. The guy, my person that I was willing to pay to do the soil borings said 1 there aren ' t two sites out there. You said your City Engineer said there are. I Emmings : Did he base his opinion on borings? 1rBrian Pike: He based it upon, no . 1 Planning Commission Meeting July 13 , 1988 - Page 9 Emmings : You can hire an expert to say anything . ' Brian Pike: We hired him to come out and do soil borings and he said where? He said all of this is disturbed land . Emmings: Maybe by coordinating with our consultants and staff, maybe they can identify the likely sites and your man can do the borings. Communicate with the staff and get them what they want. Brian Pike: We did and she said probably the end result of this is having II your guy and our guy going out there on the property and look it over . A lot of this communication has been in the last week here. Emmings : I ' ve got one question on this . From time to time I 've heard about the extension of Lake Lucy Road out to TH 41. Where does that come in relation to this property? Olsen: We have only an approximate location. ' Brian Pike : Nothing ' s been set in stone from what we've been told . Olsen: The approximate location is in here. Batzli : Are you going to be reserving the right-of-way? ' Olsen: As an easement? We are reserving it at this time but there ' s nothing to prevent them from building on it at this time. ' Jim Dalhart: The church couldn' t build on there? Olsen : Not if we don' t have an official right-of-way. , Dacy: We wouldn' t recommend it . Emmings : First of all , does anyone else have any other comments on this or is there a motion? Conrad moved , Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission table this item until the applicant provides the required soil boring data locating two acceptable septic sites on the property to the City Staff. All voted in favor and the motion carried . Headla : Do you know what the Met Council is doing? They just keep playing hardnose? It seems like this would be an ideal situation. Dacy: The Lake Ann Facility Agreement has a lot to do with that . To allow one property to hook up, you can have a lot of implications from the ( Met Council ' s standpoint for all of the properties along the MUSA line - there. Number one, there' s no acreage available to land swap. Number two , the City has to do a parcel by parcel analysis of the entire MUSA line if we want to add additional acreage in so it' s going to be a I . Planning Commission Meeting July 13, 1988 - Page 10 1117 II timely process with no guarantee for any applicant to get acreage added . Headla: So it isn ' t just the aye or nay, there' s a lot of other things that affect it? Dacy: Yes . I PUBLIC HEARING: REPLAT OF LOT 6 OF SUN RIDGE ADDITION INTO TWO LOTS (2.5 ACRES AND 39.8 ACRES) ON PROPERTY ZONED A-2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATE AND LOCATED AT THE END OF THE CUL-DE-SAC OF SUN RIDGE COURT, 1/2 MILE NORTH OF LYMAN BOULEVARD ON AUDUBON ROAD, ROD GRAMS. I Barbara Dacy presented the staff report on this item. Emmings : Barb, just one question. If he add the 20 acres out there to I the 40, he can only put two houses on all of that 60 acres , is that correct? Dacy: That' s correct. There' s one existing house here so he'd be allowed one here and then one still on the big lot. Ilt Emmings : He could divide it up anyway he wanted to but . . . IDacy: He gets two more units and that ' s it . Emmings : Is the applicant present? IIDacy: I don ' t know what happened to him. Although he does , he is the anchor for Channel 9 so he' s probably at work . IEmmings : Are there any members of the public that are here to comment on this. It is a public hearing. IBatzli moved , Ellson seconded to close the ublic hearing .arzng . All voted in favor and the motion carried . The public hearing was closed. IHeadla : There' s a driveway coming off of Audubon . Can you show me on the map where that would be there? IIDacy: As part of the original plat approval , I think that was right here between these two lots. The road entrance is just to the north of that and there is a driveway to an existing house to the north of this site . Headla: There ' s a couple of homes there isn' t there? Dacy: Yes . The existing house here . There ' s that huge house that ' s being constructed here and then this lot is built on and this one too. STATE OF I � UVLJV����Q DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES 219 E. Frontage Rd. Waconia, Mn. 55387 442-2317 Jo Ann Olsen 7/27/88 City Planner ' 690 Coulter St. Chanhassen, Mn. 55317 Subject: Church site on Hwy. 41 Use of the woodlot for a sewage system drain site. The trees located just south of the the building site has been suggested as a possible drain site. This would be possible if the trees were thinned out in order to make room for the drain field. The tree roots would have a tendency to grow into the tile lines that would make up the drain field. There is also a problem of chemical damage to the trees from a drain field especially if softened water is needed at the site. ' Trees would need to be removed ivi order to place the system. The trees that ' are leftfrom the removal operation would benefit because of freedom from competition that exists now. The Norway pine trees should have been thinned ten years ago in order to maintain a healthy growth pattern. They also need to have some of the competing hardwood trees removed from around the pines. The health of the stand would be improved from a thinning operation and a drain system could be located in the direction of the woodlot. ' Alan E. Olson DNR-Forester ' ) ,__-- Waconia RUG G 1988 CITY OF CHANhASSE' ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES • WATERS, SOILS, AND MINERALS • LANDS AND FORESTRY 00 GAME AND FISH • PARKS AND RECREATION ENFORCEMENT AND FIELD SERVICE 1t7� I 0�N N °4 Minnesota I ,.„7, ' Department of Transportation District 5 e4 ���� 2055 No. Lilac Drive I of TOG' Golden Valley, Minnesota 55422 July 25, 1988 (612)593- 8403 11 I Ms. JoAnn. Olsen, Assistant City Planner City of Chanhassen 690 Coulter Drive II P.O. Box 147 Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317 II In Reply Refer To: 315 S.P. 1008 TH 47 Plat review of Westside Baptist Church located E. of TH 41, 3/4 mi. S. of TH 7 in 1 City of Chanhassen, Carver County Dear Ms. Olsen: IWe are in rceipt of the above referenced plat for our review in accordance with Minnesota Statutes 505.02 and 505.03 Plats and Surveys. We find the ' plat acceptable for further development with consideration of the follow- ing comments: - Dimensions between the existing highway centerline and the adjacent IIplat boundary should be shown on the plat. - It appears that the proposed entrance is designed so that a future I street sould be constructed at this location. Mn/DOT currently owns access control in this area which will be the determining factor in the location of the proposed entrance. An entrance permit must be applied for and approved before any construction within the highway II right of way may begin. When application is made, the specific location and design of the entrance will be determined. II - It appears that a Riley/Purgatory/Bluff Creek Watershed permit will be required, as well as a DNR permit. Drainage appears to be away from the highway. IIf you have any questions in regard to this review please contact Evan Green at 593-8537. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. II el ei,,V ' District Enginee Icc: Steve Keefe Metropolitan Council JUL 2 7 1988 Roger Gustafson Carver Co. Public An Works Equal Opportunity Employer NI- 9 CITY OF CHA ,ASSEN 'ilk ri R RESOURCE ENGINEERING ERoger E. Machmeier, P.E. James L. Anderson, C.P.S.S. 29665 Neal Avenue 3541 Ensign Avenue, North Lindstrom, MN 55045 New Hope, MN 55427 (612) 257-2019 (612) 593-5338 EVALUATION OF SITE AND SOILS DATA FOR ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTEM ' FOR PROPOSED WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH ' CITY OF CHANHASSEN 1 by ROGER E. MACHMEIER, P.E. JAMES L. ANDERSON, C.P.S.S. ' August 9, 1988 SPECIALISTS IN ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT t ' I EVALUATION OF SOILS AND SITE DATA FOR ONSITE SEWAGE TREATMENT SYSTEM FOR PROPOSED WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH, CHANHASSEN I On Monday, August 8, soil borings were made to verify ' soils data collected and submitted by R & D Soil Consultants. We made a soil boring approximately midway between borings B-1 and B-2 and found the soil texture to be a sandy loam to a depth of 12 inches which changed to a loam texture with mottling indicating seasonal saturation at a ' depth of 24 inches. The soil data as submitted for this particular site appeared to be reasonably accurate. From ' the topography, it appears that the proposed mound area could be reoriented so that the long axis would be approximately parallel with the 150-foot setback from the ' pond. The top of the knoll area is relatively flat and there apparently are other portions of the area that may be ' suitable for the installation of a sewage treatment mound. The 150-foot setback distance needs to be firmly established and field staked by that authority responsible for the setback so that there is no future argument or discussion about the setback location. The 150-foot setback must be staked before any further site and soils investigation for the design of a mound on the location designated "Primary ' Septic Area. " We then moved to an area along the south edge of the ' lot which had also been investigated by R& D Soil Consultants. A soil boring in the area of B-4 encountered I r Westside Baptist Church Page 2 of 6 1 sandy loam to a depth of 8 inches where clay loam texture I was encountered. This boring hole was stopped at a depth of about 20 inches because of an obstruction. Another boring ' hole was made approximately 12 feet west of B-4. Soil texture graded from sandy loam to loam with no evidence of 1 mottling at 16 inches as the consultants indicated for boring B-4. The soil was a dull color and there were some variations in color but none of which indicated seasonal ' saturation. At a depth of 33 inches, the texture changed to a silt loam but with no evidence of mottling which would ' indicate seasonal saturation. The soil texture changed to a loam at a depth of 4 feet without any evidence of seasonal saturation. The soil texture in the boring hole which we made appears to be suitable for the installation of drainfield trenches, however, additional borings will need to be taken to a depth of at least 3 feet deeper than the bottom of the proposed trenches. The area is covered with a planted grove , of red pine varying in diameter from 4 to 8 inches. The tree rows are not on the contour so that if drainfield trenches were installed, a number of the trees would have to be removed. Thinning, however, may be beneficial to the stand of trees. The slope of the area delineated by borings , B-3 and B-4 is approximately 20 percent as measured with an • 1 r IIWestside Baptist Church Page 3 of 6 IAbney hand level. This slope is somewhat steep for mound construction but is suitable for trench installation. IBefore any further site investigations for a sewage Itreatment system on this property, an estimate should be made of the maximum daily sewage flow which would be used Ifor sizing the septic tank or tanks and an average daily sewage flow which would be used for sizing the soil IIabsorption unit. This information is necessary so that the Isite evaluator identifies an adequate area of soil suitable for the soil absorption unit. The estimate of sewage flow Ishould include the days when the congregation is present for either services or fellowship activities plus the day-to-day Isewage flow for staff who are on the premises. A design rate of sewage flow is necessary for the design of either a IItrench or mound system. 1 The location as proposed for the church building would Iapparently change the existing contour lines according to the map dated 7-26-88 . The natural contours must be allowed 1 to remain if the sewage system is installed in the area of the red pines on the south portion of the property. It may rbe necessary to readjust the location of the church and parking area to the north if the area amongst the existing Ipine trees is used for the soil treatment system. There is IIalso considerable area along the south property line to the west of the proposed church location that should be II ' 1 Westside baptist Church Page 4 of 6 ' investigated as far as soil suitability for an onsite sewage I treatment system. There is a natural drainageway from the south leading onto the property and this would need to be ' considered when designing the sewage treatment system. There should be, however, an area approximately 60 feet wide by several hundred feet long that could be investigated for ' the suitability of drainfield trenches. Such trenches can be installed in forest vegetation and the major trees 1 allowed to remain. There is another potential site for a drainfield in the southwest portion of the property. There are also some red , pines which have been planted in this area along with other wooded vegetation. Again, if the soil is suitable, drainfield trenches could be installed on the contour with ' the major trees being allowed to remain and the area allowed to return to its wooded vegetation. Effluent would need to 1 be pumped to the area from the sewage source. This is true, however, of the other sites which were also investigated on the property. Drainfield trenches can be located in wooded vegetation saving those trees which are located between the trenches. While the construction is somewhat more difficult with the ' trees present, the remaining trres will likely have no adverse effect but rather a beneficial effect upon the I operation of the system. With drop box distribution, only I ,. IWestside 5aptist Church Page 5 of 6 Ithose trenches which are needed to hydraulically accept and treat the septic tank effluent will be supplied with IIeffluent. If effluent is ponded in a trench, roots will not grow into this oxygen-deficient septic tank effluent but Iwill grow to the wet soil surrounding the trench where oxygen is present, thus increasing the effectiveness of the Isewage treatment system during the growing season. Those Itrenches which do not receive effluent will be dry and there will be no attraction for the roots to grow toward or into Ithese trenches. This condition will be true whether gravel-filled or gravelless trenches are installed. Gravelless trench consists of a corrugated plastic Itubing surrounded by a geotextile fabric and eliminates the need for rock or gravel in a drainfield trench. The IIadvantage of the gravelless trench is that construction Iactivity is considerably less since no trench rock need to be distributed on the site. The gravelless trenches are Icarried to and placed in a 24-inch wide level trench excavation by hand. Gravelless trenches installed in the Iwooded area would minimize the amount of trees that would IIneed to be removed and would minimize the amount of construction activity necessary. It is important to note that surface drainage will have IIto be carefully assessed and evaluated when this property is developed. There is drainage from the property immediately 1 ,i Westside Baptist Church Page 6 of 6 II to the south which is wooded at the present time. If the II abutting property is developed and the woods removed, there may be considerably more runoff onto the property being I evaluated. Provision should be made to direct all runoff through the property without causing any damage or I inconvenience.• I I hereby declare that I am a certified Site Evaluator and Onsite Sewage Treatment System II Designer (Certificate No. 845) as designated by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency and that this site investigation was • II conducted by me or under my direct supervision. I &Ankh. ). /Ilkb6.4-t-0,614 J s L. Anderson, C.P.S.S. I I hereby certify that I am a Registered II Professional Engineer in Minnesota (Reg. No. 6745) and that this site investigation was conducted by me or under my direct supervision. I also declare that I am a II certified Individual Sewage Treatment System Designer and Site Evaluator (Certificate No. 530) as designated by the Minnesota II Pollution Control Agency. OF g 1'1 OLCAL‘ll.t/L II Roge4 E. Machmeier, P.E. REM/jjm I I I I I ' CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION ( REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 17, 1988 Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7 . 30 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steven Emmings, Ladd Conrad, Brian Batzli , Jim Wildermuth and David Headla ' MEMBERS ABSENT: Annette Ellson STAFF PRESENT: Barbara Dacy, City Planner and Jo Ann Olsen, Asst. City ' Planner ( _ CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO LOCATE A CHURCH IN THE RURAL DISTRICT ON IPROPERTY ZONED RR, RURAL RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT AND LOCATED ON THE EAST SIDE � '\ OF HWY. 41 APPROXIMATELY ONE MILE NORTH OF HWY. 5, WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH. Jo Ann Olsen presented the Staff Report . ' Headla: I 'm not quite sure I understand where it says Page 5, July 13th, the Planning Commission recommends approval of Conditional Use Permit. Number 1, the two approved septics sites must be staked and preserved prior to receiving a building permit . Aren ' t they staked now? I( Olsen: We ' re just saying that they have to remain staked. A lot of times after a site has been approved or when grading of the site begins , a lot ' of times they' re not properly roped off and the sites are damaged. Headla : And I understand there really isn ' t any other hard spots with ' this or with the applicant. The applicant is aware of all this and they agree with all this? Olsen : I don ' t know if they agree with it. Headla: Do you have any hard spots with any of this? Bryan Pike : Oh yes . I have a few. Do you want to hear? Headla: I guess I 'd like to hear if there ' s a serious disagreement. ' Bryan Pike : When we put the site plan together , we had this 60 foot easement going across as well as the sewer line that you can see clearly, this stiped line going across . When we came to the planners , we were told that we needed a 50 foot setback from that 60 foot easement road and originally when we put this site plan together we designed the parking lot, we see the edge of the parking lot, it is 50 foot exactly from that 50 foot easement road back and the church which we originally wanted to put up in the corner, the church that we originally wanted to put up here facing this way we moved down here because of the 50 feet again from this road. We noticed in the Minutes of the last meeting one of you asked them ' a question about the possibility or whether they had reserved easement rights . We understood that there were not . I ' ve done some checking with our attorney and there are not. We understand then that it is still r Planning Commission Meeting August 17, 1988 - Page 2 possible for us to move our building up in here and build in this area. If we did that, it would open up a primary site. This line right here is the sewer construction limits . We did give them permission to move down into here some dirt that came from this 52 foot hole that they had over here but this area hasn' t been touched where the church is. It would enable us to put a primary site right next to our building. The soil borings were done right in here. We feel for the primary site a simple septic system, if it fits with the soil borings . I got this report yesterday. I sent my secretary after it at 4 : 30 and I looked at it later in the afternoon. Then I called the architect about 5:00 so some of this is new to us but what we' re being told is that a mound system 350 feet away is going to cost us about $12, 000. 00 to put up. From what Machmeier says at the end of this report , it sounds like he thought we might have to II even pump to that 350 foot mark. Is that what you understood? So the pumping would be an additional cost to us as well . What we' re hoping is to be allowed to make an adjustment to this plan to swing that building up II and we' ll submit new soil borings into that area that is right below the church or if it' s required by you, we' ll do the whole thing. We were not given an understanding that we could put the church up in that area before. We were told that we had to stay back 50 feet from that 60 foot easement. Erhart : There is a 60 foot easement or there isn' t a 60 foot easement? Bryan Pike: There is a 60 foot easement with property owners that are behind us so they are not land locked to the east . Erhart: So the City has that easement right? Bryan Pike: No , the City doesn ' t have it. ' Olsen: This plan is providing a 60 foot easement for the future road. Erhart: Because you' ve asked them to provide it? ' Bryan Pike: Who ' s providing it? Olsen: You show it on your site plan that you ' re providing that 60 foot easement. Bryan Pike: We provided the 60 foot easement for the people that we bought the property from to the east. Brian,Klingelhutz, Leland Getschatch and Leland Basalm and Leland Getschatch. ' Erhart: So that' s in your contract with them? Bryan Pike : It' s in our city. The city has nothing. . . ' Erhart: But it' s in your contract . Bryan Pike: The 60 foot easement is but no 50 foot setbacks on both sides. ' Planning Commission Meeting August 17 , 1988 - Page 3 Erhart : Well , that doesn' t matter . ' Bryan Pike : Oh yes it does. There' s 1. 5 acres of land that we were told we couldn ' t touch that we can now touch. Erhart: But you have to provide, does that contract say exactly where that 60 foot easement is going to be? ' Bryan Pike : It says that 60 foot easement is right here and we checked with our Attorney and that is all they got. They don ' t have any rights to a 50 foot setback. I don' t think intentionally but we didn' t have proper information when we sent this to our architect and we want to move ' that building to gain as much of our property as we can. In fact when we master planned this thing, if we ever grow to the point of needing bigger buildings , which we hope we will someday, we really limited ourselves to a point where we have to cover everything just about out there with parking lot to meet the current City requirements for our next bigger building . Conrad: Jo Ann, explain that. Are we talking about a 50 foot easement from a 60 foot right-of-way? Olsen: A 50 foot setback from an easement. Conrad : And that was whose condition? Olsen: I 'm sure this was information that was given, there is plans for Lake Lucy to be continued through that property and that would be best to maintain that 50 foot setback. Erhart : Our ordinance states that a 50 foot setback exists from a street, not from an easement. Olsen: From right-of-way. Erhart: An easement for right-of-way? ' Emmings : The 60 foot easement they have through there, to landlock, otherwise they have. . . is a 60 foot easement for a road, right? ' Olsen : Right . Emmings : And does the City have the right to have this property owner ' stay back 50 feet from that road easement or don' t we? Olsen : Technically it' s from right-of-way. ' Dacy: We recommended the 50 foot setback because that' s what the Zoning requires from a street . Sooner or later there will be a road traversing that property. ' Emmings : Lake Lucy. You ' re talking about Lake Lucy or are you talking about the road from the people behind? 1 Planning Commission Meeting August 17, 1988 - Page 4 Dacy: Lake Lucy. The applicant is saying well , I want to move closer , than he should be aware that if Lake Lucy Road comes through, his parking and/or building may become non-conforming because they' re within that ' setback. Emmings: But once it' s there it ' s there right? ' Dacy: Right. Emmings : It sounds to me like they want to change the site plan. Can we II look at it now? Conrad : You do want to change the site plan, is that what you' re saying? II Bryan Pike: We' re not asking to make a major change but. . . Conrad : But you do want to change the site plan? , Bryan Pike: Yes . Conrad : Do you want to just have us table this until you can bring it back? Bryan Pike: If you think that that is . . . r Conrad: It' s sort of up to you. We 'd like to see what you really want to take to City Council versus something that ' s kind of well , we ' re not sure where this is . We'd really like to see the absolute final . Bryan Pike : I don ' t know how you all function but is it possible for us to say we want to move it up here? We have our architect here to show you exactly on the condition we could continue on and cover the other areas that are mentioned in here that are talked about? Conrad : Okay. If we find too many cases where we' re not seeing something close to what ' s going to go to City Council , we will table it. If we find one or two that we think you can solve in two weeks with staff because we think that there ' s an agreement, then we don' t need to see that final plan that you ' re going to present but if you continue to add different issues , then we' ll table it and have you bring it back so we can see more. Bryan Pike: Okay. There ' s two other points that are in here and they are conditions that we want to bring up. That is , we were wondering if we had enough screening . It looked liked in the ordinance that the screening that we have would be appropriate. If we ' re not, I don 't have the species of theses and we ' re going to have to by and get them but we do have screening that is in here. There is more actually than we show. We don' t show every tree that ' s here. Some of these are pretty good sized trees . We had a picture up here that we could show you some of them. It said in \— the ordinance that if there was already existing, that that could be considered as part of the screening. And we don' t have to screen for a road that as we understand , this is the firmest that I 've heard about this road. Each time I 've asked there' s always been the possibility that that Planning Commission Meeting August 17, 1988 - Page 5 road would never go through. If that road never goes through, then we ' re wasting a lot of space and effort. Okay. We have a picture of those ' shurbs . Is that a possibility? Do we need to put that extra screening up is what our question is? Emmings : What extra screening? Where does it say he has to have extra screening? Olsen: The ordinance requires that there be screening between the vehicular area and the road right-of-way. There are some existing trees out there . Emmings : But what I see here Jo Ann is it says they have to provide a landscaping plan. Couldn' t they present that plan and if there' s adequate screening , I supposed they wouldn' t have to do more. As I look at this , ' all you' re being required to do right now is provide the landscaping plan. You can put the existing vegetation on that and as long as they' re satisfied. ' Bryan Pike : Okay. So we submit that to you? That part? Olsen: Yes. The only thing that doesn' t allow to count is . . . Bryan Pike : The only other thing was the paving . The paving of the parking lot. We' re wondering if we can stay with gravel . It would be our sincere desire and hope to put pavement out there because it'd be a lot nicer but our budget right now, would not allow us to build the building. It would be an additional $27, 000 . 00 to put that in right now and we ' re trying to build a building- and we' re saying that in this area, we' re not going to be disturbing anybody. Our traffic flow is definitely not the traffic flow that ' s right across the street in Minnewashta Park and that is not paved. It ' s all dirt so we' re wondering if that were doing . Conrad : We ' ll mull that through. Okay, Dave. You ' re still on. Headla: He ' s got me really. . .across the street there. He' s right, that' s all gravel . I was convinced he needed blacktop but he sited something else. I ' ll pass . ' Conrad : Let me throw it back to Dave. In terms of the plan that ' s been presented, do you want to see that back? Are you concerned that the plan is going to be different? What ' s your feeling? Do you want that to come back here or do you want to do it in conditions? Do you feel comfortable with it as it is and let the City Council have at it Dave? Headla: I think it was an interesting question that you asked and I want ' to throw it back to Barb and Jo Ann , are they comfortable with it? Are they just a little ways away if they make the change? They' ve been so involved with that . After we get done I 'd like to hear their opinion on that. Conrad : Jo Ann , what do you think? Planning Commission Meeting August 17 , 1988 - Page 6 C Olsen : That ' s the first I ' ve heard of it too and I would expect it to be a major change. They' re changing all the parking area also. Conrad : You would change the septic site too I would imagine. Bryan Pike: The primary site. ' Carey Lyons : My name is Carey Lyons , . . . the architects and we are designing their structure. That would be the intent. To move the church to this area to allow the primary septic site. To move to this area so the church would not be required to go 350 feet and possibly pump to that primary site because it would be a suitable site adjacent to it. There would be some rearranging of parking and access to the building and there II would be the relocation of that one site but beyond that I think we could work with the staff to meet all your requirements and not hold the project up. ' Conrad : Let ' s talk about this setback from a right-of-way. I guess I still don' t know what, if that is our standard, a 50 foot setback, it is a standard? Olsen : It' s from a dedicated right-of-way and this isn ' t a dedicated right-of-way. , Conrad : It isn' t a dedicated right-of-way. Batzli : What section is that in? What section is that 50 foot setback? ' Dacy: The rural , it ' s under the RR setback. It ' s 50 feet. It' s more of an issue for . . . ' Batzli : Well , right-of-way is not defined in the Zoning Ordinance so I doubt it' s right-of-way you' re talking about. ' Olsen : It ' s from the property line. Batzli : Easement , on the other hand is and it' s either public or private II for what that 's worth. Dacy: Again, if it' s not 50, if it' s below that , then the applicant is II taking his chances as to the non-conformity of the building in the future. Conrad : And what is the risk to the City? Dacy: As far as what? Conrad : As far as allowing them to build within this setback area? , Dacy: At this point, none. Olsen: They might end up with a church with barely a setback once the ' street is in. ' Planning Commission Meeting August 17, 1988 - Page 7 ' Conrad : So once the street g oes in. ' Olsen: You might have a church parking lot. . . Dacy: And we don ' t know if they' re talking 40 feet or 30 feet or what so ' maybe it' s an issue that we can resolve. I don' t know. Bryan Pike : Do you build 60 foot roads through there? Is there not some extra space in there anyway? ' Dacy: For a 60 foot roadway is a typical right-of-way for a street which could accomodate two lanes of traffic and boulevard areas . Bryan Pike : So there is some extra space on both sides of the road then? ' Dacy: Yes, but that' s not included in your setback calculation because the right-of-way, that boulevard area may be used for installation of utilities , pole lines , trails . ' Wildermuth: How close to the easement do you propose to place the building? Carey Lyons : We don ' t know at this point . We just discussed the issue this afternoon so we haven' t had a chance to analyze it to determine exactly where it would best fit and allow that primary site to move up adjacent to the building. Conrad : I 'm going to interrupt you. If they don ' t know, I think we have to table the issue until , if you ' re talking a couple feet, I think we wouldn' t mind it but if you don ' t know yet, I think we ' ve got to have you knowing. If you were here saying we are going to do it exactly this way, I think we could probably pass something conditioned upon that kind of ' knowledge but if you don ' t know yet , am I off base? I don ' t want to belabor a meeting when we are probably going to table it if they don' t know. I guess I 'm kind of uncomfortable. ' Headla : I think it ' s appropriate Ladd . Emmings: The other issue is, if there ' s a strong likelihood that there ' s ' going to be the extension of Lake Lucy Road going through this property in the future, I think they'd be foolish not to take it into account even if they don ' t have to. We ought to make sure we know what our basis is for ' imposing it because I think there should be that setback from that easement that we mentioned . Batzli : I think we also have the basis to look at that since this is a conditional use. Conrad : So if you'd like to revise your plans , I think we could go ahead 11- tonight with the plans as you ' ve presented and we could pass a favorable motion but if you do want to change them, we will table this until you can come back and tell us specifically what you want to do . r I Planning Commission Meeting August 17 , 1988 - Page 8 C Carey Lyons : I can understand your our oint and stand and it ' s v P your very easy to see that you feel that way but it ' s also, you should also appreciate that if we' re allowed to build within that 50 and we just are now made aware of it, why are we the only ones to be penalized? Conrad : I just think you should know that what the Planning Commission' s II role is , is to take a look at as close to absolute plans as possible so we can make right decisions. What you' re telling us is you've presented us , and through whatever reasons, I understand that you just found out some II information this afternoon and I appreciate that and you can' t react in a few minutes but on the other hand, our role here is to take a look at what really is real . What really is being , what you want and so far , what you' re saying is we want to change a lot of things. Parking lot . Location of church. Septic systems and I think it' s not appropriate for us to say we agree because we don' t know what you' re talking about yet. So we understand that you got new infomration and you certainly have the II right to change whatever you 've got but on the other hand, from our role, I think it' s not appropriate for the Planning Commission to react to something. Our charter is to react to something that' s being presented as actual and you don' t have that to us tonight. Bryan Pike: How long of a delay are we. . . Conrad : I think it' s a simple, straight forward. I guess it' s going to depend on where you want to locate the church. I think generally we would ask staff if they really believe a road is going to go through there , I think that' s what Mr. Emmings just said, if there is a road that we anticipate that will be going in there , we ' re probably going to hold you to that 50 foot setback. I think what we challenge staff to do is say, is that a real thing . If the road is kind of imaginary and we may never do it from the City standpoint, then we take a look at that and say, gee if we' re not convinced that it' s needed for Chanhassen , then we' d be able to slip some of those maybe standards or regulations, whatever. But if they II come back and say, yes we really believe to serve the neighborhood to the east, there has to be a road there, then we' re probably going to uphold pretty much the standards that we set . And I think it' s also to your benefit. Bryan Pike : I think Jo Ann has already stated that it isn ' t something that is legally, that the City can take . ' Emmings : That' s something we want to look into . Batzli : I would disagree with it for one. I 'm just reading the Statutes . II Emmings : I found a definition for right-of-way here. Batzli : But it' s from, it' s a setback. If you go to setback, they define it as roadway easement. Easement is both a public or private right . Headla : But we haven' t adhered to that . I 1 ` ' Planning Commission Meeting August 17 , 1988 - Page 9 IC Batzli : I don ' t know what we ' ve adhered ' to . I 'm just reading what the Code says . ' Bryan Pike: What does that mean? Conrad : These are two lawyers , I don' t know. Let' s try to resolve that before the motion occurs. It means we don ' t, as lay people up here, we don ' t understand what the law specifically commands us to do . As Planning ' Commissioners , we don' t know what' s right or wrong and we'd like the staff to consult and tell us what is appropriate . So if we don' t have to enforce the 50 foot, if you have full right to use that 50 feet, that' s your perogative. We don' t know. We can ' t tell what our ordinance is t telling us to do right now. Therefore, if we table it, we' re talking two weeks . You' re two weeks further down the line. Is that right Jo Ann? Can we sneak him on the next agenda? ' Olsen: Sure. Conrad : So we' d bring you back as soon as we can which is two weeks from now so we' ll delay that. It may be to your benefit. On the other hand , if you want to run with what we see , I think we can react to that. We haven ' t discussed bituminous . I think the other thing they deserve to I hear though, a little bit of conversation on what we want to do with the parking lot. Jim, what do you want to do with the parking lot? They don ' t want to pave it. Wildermuth : I think in view of the contours involved , it would be very desirable to pave it. ' Batzli : I agree with Jim. Emmings: I agree. ' Erhart : I agree . Conrad : I think the same . We 'd like to see it paved . At least I think ' you' re taken care of on the landscaping . That looks clean to me. Paving you' ve got to do probably. Based on what we ' re saying . City Council disagrees with us occasionally. We get involved in setting precedent and ' things like that in terms of what the ordinance. It ' s hard for us to say, well you don' t need to pave and we understand the financial considerations that you' re under but when the next group comes in and says they don ' t ' want to pave, we don' t always have rationale to say why you don ' t need to and why they should . So typically we uphold the ordinance because the ordinance is driving a lot of our decisions here. What I 'm saying is we ' re looking at the ordinance. The City Council may have a different opinion. Bryan Pike : Does the ordinance require it in that area? 1r- Olsen: For commercial , it states for any commercial or industrial uses or similar uses like that , they must be paved . Concrete curb. It ' s in the parking section. It was staff ' s interpretation that the amount of traffic Planning Commission Meeting August 17, 1988 - Page 10 17 on that parking area is similar to other uses that we have proposed in rural areas where there' s a lot of traffic where it' s going to be eroded . Run off into wetland locations . , Bran Pike: What I understand her to be saying is that it' s her interpretation of that ordinance. Conrad : You persuade us that it' s not based on your interpretation of the ordinance, I think you may have a chance because it doesn' t necessarily say church. You could dig into it a little bit and say, based on our interpretation on how we read it, we don ' t need to. Bryan Pike: Would it be wrong for us to say go with this plan for tonight and then present our change to the City Council? Is that wrong to do that? Olsen : Staff would recommend that it probably be taken back to the ' Planning Commission. Bryan Pike: See , we' re pressed for building before fall . We' re in a II situation where we' re meeting at 1 : 00 in another church. We' re hoping to get it up. If we have to break frost ground , we know that we' re not going to be able to afford that. c N, Conrad : I suppose that ' s your right . It ' s not the process we like to follow because typically we kind of like to clear the way for the City Council so that when we say something regarding planning , they say yes . II The planners . These lay people who think they' re kind of planning . They agree with it . It makes sense but on the other hand , you have the right to go in and say this is what was approved. Here' s another plan that was II not approved and you potentially could present it to them. They immediately, it' s a gamble on your part. They could table it and say send it back to Planning Commission because they haven ' t reviewed it this way. It' s a gamble. It would cost you an additional two weeks but it' s sort of II up to you. Batzli : Jo Ann , what is the likelihood that MnDot gives up an access permit for the current arrangement of their driveway? Olsen : I spoke with Evan Green and he sounded like that wouldn' t be much of a problem. Batzli : So with this condition , you probably wouldn ' t have a change approving it with them applying for the driveway access permit? They , wouldn' t have to change. Olsen: Right . ' Conrad : What do you want to do? Bryan Pike : We don' t want to throw that political hot potato at the Council . • I Planning Commission Meeting ' August 17, 1988 - Page 11 ' Conrad : I 'm glad you ' re doing that. I 'd prefer you to come back. Any other comments on this one? I didn' t let you folks to my right talk about Uthis one a great deal ,, but anything else? Emmings : I think I 'd look at the same thing that Bryan did. I think we should make a motion to table it. We should also have the City Attorney ' look at it and maybe Bryan could just outline what he' s been scribbling over there because I think we can impose the 50 foot easement but I think we should get a legal opinion on that because that ' s going to make it real ' simple for them. Batzli moved , Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission table this matter in order for the Westside Baptist Church to determine whether they want to rearrange their site plan and also move that the staff has the City Attorney review whether a 50 foot setback is required in the RR ' district in this case and the setback is defined as a roadway easement. The definition of easement includes both public and privately held rights . All voted in favor and the motion carried . Olsen: And just for the e record, we did not have a current address for them. I had to call somebody to get their reports to them. I 've talked I( with them by phone. Dacy: The point being that what he represented is not exactly true as to when he received that report. PUBLIC HEARING: PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 76 . 5 ACRES INTO TWO LOTS OF 66. 5 AND 10 ACRES ON PROPERTY ZONED A-2, AGRICULTURAL ESTATES, AND LOCATED AT 775 WEST 96TH STREET, TIM ERHART. ' Public Present : Karen Hasse 630 West 96th Street Jo Ann Olsen presented the staff report. Conrad : It ' s hard for me to understand the 30 and 60 foot easement Jo Ann. If you could graphicly help us . Olsen : It ' s in the rural area so any roadway easement right-of-way would ' have to be 60 feet. We did obtain 30 feet when the Worm property came through, the Jeurissen and Worm property so what we are requesting from the applicant is the additional 30 feet that would be necessary to provide us with the 60 foot and it would jog up . Typically you would want it to I continue straight across. What we' re saying is that these properties , the only time you can acquire that right-of-way easement is when the property is platted and these two pieces of property can not be subdivided until CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 7 , 1988 Vice Chairman Emmings called the meeting to order at 7: 35 P.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steven Emmings, Annette Ellson, Brian ' Batzli , David Headla and Ladd Conrad arrived after the first item. MEMBERS ABSENT: James Wildermuth STAFF PRESENT: Barbara Dacy, City Planner and Larry Brown, Asst. City Engineer CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO LOCATE A CHURCH IN THE RURAL DISTRICT ON PROPERTY ZONED RR, RURAL RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT AND LOCATED ON THE EAST SIDE II OF HWY. 41 APPROXIMATELY ONE MILE NORTH OF HWY. 5, WESTSIDE BAPTIST CHURCH. Barbara Dacy presented the Staff Report . Emmings: Do you have anything additional? You understand that what we ' re II looking at in front of us right now is the old original plan without moving the church over? Westside Baptist Representative: No changes . Emmings: That' s fine with you? ' Westside Baptist Representative: Yes . Emmings: Are there any members of the public here that want to comment on II this item? Batzli. moved , Erhart seconded to close the public hearin g . All voted �n ' favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Headla : Do they intend to give you some borings on the septic sites? Dacy: Yes. They have followed up and done additional borings . . . ' Headla : That ' s all I .have. Batzli. : My comment from last time still applies . I would like to see us II being able to work with the Metropolitan Council on the MUSA line application for a site like this where it ' s obvious that it ' s near a wetland. The interceptor is going to run right through there and I can' t I believe the little consideration that went into being able to hook them cup. But having said that, I don ' t have any questions . Ellson: No comments from me . It looks fine. Planning Commission Meeting ISeptember 7 , 1988 - Page 2 ' Erhart : I was going to say, you probably have the impression that the City of Chanhassen doesn 't want you to hook up to this interceptor. I think I can speak for most of the Commission members here and not here, it ' would be to our . . . if you and other property owners along that line could hook up to it and I find it amazing that the Metropolitan Council can ' t somehow find it in their way to allow you to do that and I think perhaps ' what you see in here a little bit is simply that we 've been through this in the past and it ' s always kind of that frustration so somehow accept that as an apology. If you can find a way to hook up, we' re all behind you. Again, . . .and it ' s been real frustrating. Other than that, that' s ' the only comments I have. Emmings : I don' t have anything to add . I agree with Tim' s comments. It ' does seem like a reasonable thing to do that the Met Council would allow you to hook up to that interceptor that is going right through your property but I 'm not surprised. It ' s amazing but also kind of typical . ' Headla : I ' ll make a motion that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Conditional Use Permit #88-9 for a church to be located outside the MUSA line with the following conditions . The 12 that the ' staff listed and I 'd like to add a 13th. That the staff, I think Brian had an excellent point . I 'd like to see the staff make an earnest attempt to negotiate, to see if we could get them hooked up to the MUSA line. Emmings : That wouldn' t be a condition on this approval because we can ' t really put that as a condition. ' Headla : We can ask the staff to do that . Emmings: We can ask the staff to do that. Is there a second? Batzli : Second . ' Headla moved , Batzli seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Conditional Use Permit #88-9 for a church to be located outside the MUSA line with the following conditions : ' 1. The applicant must receive preliminary plat approval for the subject site by September of 1989 , unless the property owners agree to have the parcel remain as one undivided lot . 2. The two approved septic sites must be staked and preserved prior to receiving a building permit. 3 . Provide a landscaping plan which provides screening between the vehicular access areas and abutting right-of-way as required in Section 20-1190 of the Zoning Ordinance. 4. The applicant shall receive an access permit from MnDot prior to installation of the church driveway. 1 . _ 1 •Planning Commission Meeting September 7 , 1988 - Page 3 ' C 5. A fire lane must be installed for the entire length on either the east " or west side of the building. The fire lane, at least 20 feet in width , must comply with the City of Chanhassen ' s requirement for an all weather surface meeting urban standards . Whichever side is chosen, a clear access must be maintained by designation of a "Fire Lane" . 6. The main driveway shall have "No Parking Fire Lane" signs installed . I 7. The applicant shall provide a revised grading plan with storm sewer calculations which verify the preservation of the predeveloped runoff rate and all storm sewer capacities as part of the final review process . 8. The developer shall obtain and comply with all conditions of the Watershed District permit. 9. Wood fiber blankets or equivalent shall be used to stabilize all disturbed slopes greater than 3 : 1. 10. The developer shall be responsible for daily on and off site clean-up caused by the construction of this site. 11. All erosion controls shall be in place prior to the commencement of any grading, and once in place, shall remain in place throughout the duration of construction. The developer shall be responsible for periodic checks of the erosion controls and shall make all repairs promptly. All erosion controls shall remain intact until an established vegetative cover has been produced. 12. A revised plan which shows bituminous parking and curbing shall be submitted as part of the final review process . All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC HEARING: PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 10. 75 ACRES INTO 27 SINGLE FAMILY LOTS ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF, RESIDENTIAL SINGLE FAMILY AND LOCATED AT 6270 GLENDALE DRIVE, APPROXIMATELY 1/4 MILE WEST OF MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY, COUNTRY OAKS , DAVE JOHNSON. ' Public Present : Name Address ' Don Brandt 3801 Leslee Curve Tom Poppitz 4000 Glendale Drive J. Hallgren 6860 Mi.nnewashta Elaine Dunn 3820 Leslee Curve Ralph & Carol Kant 3820 Lone Cedar Circle Vern Isham 4030 Leslee Curve Dick Kinsman 3920 Crestview Drive 1