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1a. Plans & Specs for Laredo Drive/Carver Beach Rd Trails and Advertising for Bids .... s __ , I .„ . CITY OF i c`' \ , )1, CHANHASSEN CLs, . „, „ 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANF SSEN,,I E ;QTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 / IMEMORANDUM iisg.—_ :,_ ,Tiy 3,TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager :::rk:�;o u,. _ .-7, 1 FROM: Gary Warren, City Engineer ',.Zilg 60in(7:`1 . .rya% �.... ^L` ' DATE: March 8 , 1989 '�" "`�'" SUBJ: Approve Plans and Specifications for Laredo Drive/Carver II Beach Road Trails and Authorize Advertising for Bids File No. 88-21 The construction plans have been prepared for the installation of II walkways along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive as directed by the City Council on September 26 , 1988 . The plans were discussed at two separate Park and Recreation Commission meetings at which IItime public input and comments were received. As a result of these discussions , the walkway along Carver Beach II Road has been extended to the east to the Nez Perce intersection to facilitate a safer crossing location on Carver Beach Road. Traffic counts and an abbreviated speed study was conducted on Carver Beach Road to provide input to this crossing decision . 1 Although extension of the walkway to Nez Perce and inclusion of additional pedestrian signing and markings has increased the ori- ginal cost estimate for this project, I believe it is warranted IIand the plans reflect a sound design . The plans were formally approved by the Park and Recreation Commission at its February 14 , 1989 meeting. The attached II memorandum from Van Doren Hazard Stallings in detail summarizes the project and presents a tentative schedule which shows the initiation of construction by May 1 , 1989 . As noted therein , the I engineer ' s current estimate for the project is $82 , 950 . The attached memorandum from Lori Sietsema , Park and Recreation Coordinator, addresses the funding aspects of this project. II therefore find the attached plans for the installation of a walkway along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive, Project No. 88-21 , acceptable and recommend they be approved and authoriza- ' tion be given to advertise for bids . ° Attachments ° I1 . Memorandum from Van Doren Hazard Stallings dated March 6 , 1989 . 2 . Memorandum from Lori Siestema dated March 13, 1989 . II3 . Construction plans dated March 7 , 1989 . II ow- Manager ' s Comment: Action on this item is contingent upon the I City Council favorably approving the Park and Recreation capital budget amendment ( see attached memorandum from Lori Sietsema dated March 14 , 1989 ) . i 1 1 I �.:r �. 4 k� � ,�. Varr�or Hazard CITY OF CH HASSEN Stallings f ��sild1) MEMORANDUM tAA 071989 ENGINEERING DEPT. ' TO: Gary Warren , City Engineer FROM: Scott Harri Fj' o ./4-- Ham, ' DATE: March 6 , 1989 SUBJ : Sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive Improvement Project No . 88-21 VHS Project No . 88-316 The Park and recreation Commission at its February 14 , 1989 , meeting accepted the proposed final design and recommended the ' plans be forwarded to the City Council for authorization to bid . Each segment can be highlighted as follows : ' LAREDO DRIVE 1 . Five (5 ) foot wide concrete sidewalk beginning at Chanhassen Elementary School and ending at Frontier Trail a distance of 2150 feet . 2 . Sidewalk to be constructed along the west side . ' 3 . Pedestrian ramps and painted crosswalks will be provided at each street intersection . ' 4 . All areas disturbed by construction will be sodded . CARVER BEACH ROAD ' 1 . Five (5 ) foot wide concrete sidewalk beginning at Powers Boulevard and ending at Nez Perce a distance of 1665 feet . ' 2 . Sidewalk to be constructed along the south side . A pedestrian handrail is necessary for safety purposes on a 420 foot segment due to a steep slope condition . 3030 Harbor Lane North Bldg II, Suite 104 Minneapolis, MN. 55447-2175 612/553-1950 3 . Pedestrian access to the park will be via a modified entrance in the fence at the point closest to the Carver Beach/Nez Perce intersection . 1 4 . The major pedestrian crosswalk to the park is proposed at the Nez Perce intersection . This location was determined the most suitable because it presently is a 4-way stop controlled intersection . Advance pedestrian crossing signs and striped crosswalks will be provided along with pedestrian ramps at all street intersections . 5 . Pedestrian movements to the park at locations other than the crosswalk will be discouraged by extending the fence westerly and northerly approximately 100 feet . 6 . All areas disturbed by construction will be sodded . PROJECT SCHEDULE Assuming the City Council authorizes the advertisement for bids at the March 13 , 1989 , meeting , the following tentative schedule is proposed : ACTION DATE ' City Council Authorize Ad for Bid 3/13/89 Advertise in Chanhassen Villager (3 times ) 3/23&30/89 4 /6 /89 Advertise in Construction Bulletin ( 2 times ) 3 /31 /89 4/7/89 Receive bids 4/13 /89 City Council Award Bids 4 /24/89 Begin Construction ( weather permitting) 5 / 1 /89 PROJECT COST The total estimated cost of all proposed improvements including engineering , testing , observation and contingencies is $82 ,950 . A detailed estimate is attached for your reference . r CITY OF CHANHASSEN Walkways along Laredo Drive and Carver Beach Road Improvement Project No. 88-21 • ' ENGINEERS ESTIMATE FEBRUARY , 1989 ESTIMATED • UNIT ITEM QUANTITY PRICE TOTAL ' 4 " Concrete Sidewalk 15 ,700 SF @ $ 2 . 00/SF $31 ,400 .00 6 " Concrete Sidewalk 3 ,750 SF @ $ 2 . 50/SF $ 9 ,375 .00 ' Excavated and Dispose 750 CY @ $ 3 . 50/CY $ 2 ,625 .00 Pedestrian Pipe Railing 420 LF @ $ 18 . 00/LF $ 7 ,560 .00 Timber Retaining Wall 70 SF @ $ 10 . 00/SF $ 700 . 00 ' ' Relocate CB 1 EA @ $800 .00/EA $ 800 .00 Install New CB 1 EA @ $800 .00/EA $ 800 .00 Rebuild Existing CB 1 EA @ $800 . 00/EA $ 800 .00 Sodding 2 ,850 SY @ $ 3 . 00/SY $ 8 ,550 . 00 Relocate Existing Split Rail Fence 55 LF @ $ 5 . 00/LF $ 275 .00 Driveway Repair 120 SY @ $ 9 . 00/SY $ 1 ,080 . 00 Remodel Fence at Park - - LUMP SUM - - $ 1 ,000 .00 Chain Link Fence 120 LF @ $ 10 . 00/LF $ 1 ,200 .00 Standard Signs 9 EA @ $150 . 00/EA $ 1 ,350 . 00 ' TOTAL ESTIMATED CONSTRUCTION COST $67 ,515 .00 Engineering , Testing , Inspection & Contingency $15 ,435 . 00 TOTAL ESTIMATED PROJECT COST $82 ,950 .00 t 1 1 t 1 I t , , i _,, CITY OF . . '4: ' CHANHASSEN 1 \ , ' r 1 °- - ` 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 1 MEMORANDUM Don Ashworth, City Manager ITO: FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator 1 DATE: March 13 , 1989 SUBJ: Sidewalks Along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive IIAttached please find a memo from Scott Harri highlighting design details for the sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and Laredo I Drive. The Park and Recreation Commission reviewed the design plan and had some concerns regarding the proposed cost estimate. It was originally estimated that the sidewalk construction could 1 be done for roughly $25 ,000 . However, these estimates were based on trail construction in undeveloped areas and did not take into consideration the cost of restoration, pipe railings , retaining walls , fence relocations , driveway repair, etc. 1 The cost estimate is almost $83 ,000 . The 1988 budget included $25 ,000 , leaving $58 , 000 to be absorbed by the 1989 budget. The I City received $40 ,000 in trail dedication fees that was over the anticipated amount and there is $21 , 000 in the 1989 Capital Improvement Project fund that is unallocated. Additionally, the City recently received a donation of over $10 , 000 from the Chaska I Lions . Totalled , there is $71 , 000 in the Capital Improvement Project fund that could be allocated to this project. II The residents along both of the street alignments have gone on record in favor of sidewalks in their neighborhoods . They have expressed a need for the sidewalks due to the safety concerns I along these busy streets. Therefore , the Park and Recreation Commission has recommended that the City approve the design plans and authorized advertisements for bids . Additionally, it is recommended that the City Council adjust the 1989 Capital I Improvement Fund budget to allocate $58 , 000 of the unallocated $71 ,000 to this project. I 1 1 I Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14 , 1989 - Page 14 47 Mark Koegler :: If it was 9 platted , I would agree it would have to be. If it' s an easement situation, I 'm not too sure what. If that sheds a different light on it or not . When you have a platted piece of park property, it can be reverted back to private purposes but it' s a legal process . Hasek : If you have an easement and you' re not using it for the purpose that the easement was acquired, do you give up the right of that easement at that point? Mark Koegler : I 'm not certain . Hasek : It seems a little short sighted on the City' s part as far as I 'm II concerned to take an action like that without all of the affected property owners or users knowing what ' s going on and I think if the policy isn' t in place, then perhaps the Planning Commission or Council should get together and put something down to do that . If the intent is to listen the II abutting property owners , then I think all of the people that show up or are impacted by that ought to be notified that it ' s happening before hand so that they can have equal input. It' s just a suggestion of course. Schroers moved , Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission to rrecommend to pursue acquisition of Site C, the Carrico property, as a neighborhood park in the Pheasant Hills area to serve growing Chanhassen . All voted in favor and the motion carried. FINAL REVIEW OF THE SIDEWALK PLANS ALONG CARVER BEACH ROAD. Scott Harri : I don ' t know if you all remember, I was here December 13th and we presented kind of I guess "final design" for the trail system. After some very good interaction discussion with a fairly active group of neighbors on Carver Beach Road , we kind of threw the ball back in their court and I had roughly sketched out for them a trail system along the north side of Carver Beach Road with a few notes on the plan which illustrated the types of features and tree removal and mailbox adjustments , etc . etc . so they could make some contact with their neighbors. I guess following 6 to 8 weeks of throwing the ball in their court, Lori was informed that they didn ' t meet with a lot of success in selling that trail system on the north side of the road. So pursuant to your recommendations at the December 13th meeting there have been one modifications made then to the trail system on Carver Beach Road. That would be to extend the trail from, if you recall , we were proposing a crossing of Carver Beach Road . . .and we would be eliminating that crossing , extending the trail system all the way up to Nez Perce where there exists now a four way controlled intersection creating a more formalized crosswalk at that location. Remodeling the fencing at the park to allow for a more attractive and inviting entrance to the park at that point and - doing some fence work way on the west end of the park to discourage the people from' crossing Carver Beach and going across private property. So those were the modifications we had yet to I guess implement them in the form of a drawing . We will do that if that is your pleasure before we I Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14 , 1989 - Page 15 ' take these plans for the Council ' s authorizing bids and g accept the plans and things . In conjunction with this , I guess one of the items that has ' not been hit head on directly, we ' ve been throwing out some cost numbers and I 'm sure with the overall trail system plan, you had some perception of cost , numbers and other things . While I ran out a cost estimate for ' this portion of the trail system which I guess included both the Laredo Drive trail and Carver Beach trail as proposed plus the additional 375 feet. When I included contingency and engineer and surveying, testing, inspection , all those sort of factors , that the total estimated project ' cost was just shy of $83 , 000. 00. $82, 950. 00. I don ' t think it would be our recommendation , because it makes a lot of sense to carry the trail all the way to Nez Perce but I think if we didn ' t build that last 375 feet, that there would be perhaps a net savings of about $5 , 200. 00 if you didn ' t go ahead and build that last section there. It doesn ' t seem like it' s cost effective to delete that so if you have budget constraints and ' I guess we ' re talking about budget . Boyt : What was our budget for this? Sietsema: $25 , 000. 00 for the two segments . Mady: So tonight we need to put our heads together and find a way. Schroers : Your cost estimate represents also the new entrance to the park i and at Nez Perce? ' Scott Harri : Yes . It includes the modification to the existing fencing and perhaps a small type of sign there. Nothing more elaborate than that perhaps . The extension of the trail or something . . . Schroers: I had a question on these signs . 9 each at $150. 00 each. What kind of signs are they? Scott Harri : Predominantly they are pedestrian warning signs and pedestrian crosswalk signs. Because we have a four-way intersection, in my recommendation that we sign both the intersection from all four ways ' coming to it plus an advance warning sign that would alert traffic. So that would be 2 signs from each leg of the intersection plus one speed limit sign that I would recommend that we put up just west of the Nez ' Perce intersection on Carver Beach Road so that would be the total of 9 signs. ' Schroers : And those signs cost $150 . 00 each? Scott Harri : To get them made, installed and everything. Again, these are budget numbers . We would be hopeful that the low bid contractor would bid a little bit better on the price for these but these are in general what it would cost . Mady: Also our option would be to have city staff install the signs . Scott Harri : Could have them installed. These signs could be included as a part of a major sign purchase that the city would make to signing other I II Park and Rec Commission Meeting I February 14 , 1989 - Page 16 17 streets in new developments is another factor . So yes there is some scale of economy that you can get on some of these things . Mady: If I recall from our December meeting, some of the things that were going into the sidewalk cost included repair and some sewers, street sewer , drainage areas , curbing . I 'm wondering if maybe there ' s any room in the City' s street maintenance budget to pick up some of that. We' re putting in a sidewalk on top of a city easement . I don ' t know how much we need to be picking up the cost of fixing of State streets too out of the park building funds . This is something I 'd like to find out about . Sietsema: I can find out. Mady: I don ' t want to delay this either by doing that. It' s just something that, hopefully when Council reviews it, there will be an opportunity there to see if maybe the street maintenance budget has . . . to provide some help where we' re actually improving street and the water drainage system. Sietsema: It' s a possibility. Boyt : How many linear feet of sidewalk will there be? Scott Harri : There ' s 3, 815 feet. A little over 7/l0ths of a mile. 1 N, Boyt : In both? Scott Harri : In both , yes . That ' s correct . Schroers: I don' t want to put you on the spot Lori but I don ' t know I anything about how staff feels about this figure. Sietsema: To tell you the truth, I was kind of blown away because I was anticipating it to be much less and in talking to Scott further , the number that we' ve been quoted before does not include the rehabilitation of disturbed areas . The fencing . The signs . Painting the streets . Sidewalk crosswalk area. It doesn' t include a lot of those things so those are little pickle and dime items that have just gotten this budget way up higher than we anticipated it to be . There is money in the trail dedication fund . I don ' t have a firm figure on what that it is today and we have some money that maybe we can take a closer look at our capital improvement program and adjust that in certain areas . That may be another option or the other thing is that we may have to spread this over , wait with one section of it another year and budget it for next year . Schroers: I guess I 'd be in favor of looking into our other options and having it All done at once if possible. ' Sietsema: Yes, I think that ' s the most economic way to go . Robinson: -Is there a most reasonable, is asphalt cheaper than concrete or is that even acceptable? I I Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14 , 1989 - Page 17 1 Scott Harri : Half price . Asphalt is half price . ' Robinson: Is that a reasonable alternative or not? Hasek : Is 63 any better than 83? ' Sietsema: I think that you'd have to ask the residents that . Mady: We 'd have to invite them back in . Sietsema: I would say from the useability standpoint, but from somebody who ' s got to look at it everyday, they may have a stronger feeling about ' that . Watson : What is the longevity? The survival rate of asphalt as opposed ' to concrete? Scott Harri : It would be perhaps half. Concrete would maybe last 2 times , 2 1/2 times as long . Sietsema : So there are some long term savings . ' Scott Harri : But again your asphalt surface can be, it' s useful . It can be extended quite long if it ' s routinely maintained with sealers and other k. things like we would put on there . . . So how much maintenance is attributed to the concrete is less sensitive to maintenance. You almost can ignore it basically. Asphalt ' s a bit more sensitive so even though it has a lower initial cost , to get good service life out of it , you need to stick some money into it every year . Weed control . Surfacing. This sort ' of thing . Schroers : I feel that since we ' ve gotten to the point here where we ' ve ' had public hearings . We 've had the neighborhood come in. We told them that we could put the trail in for them. I almost feel that we ' ve obligated ourself to a certain extent to get underway with this project and get it in . Hasek: The trick is to find a way to pay for it while not jeopardizing other things that we' ve also promised and intended we were going to do . Boyt : There might be some things on our CIP. 11 Boyt : It' s more than 3 times the cost that we projected . Boyt : There ' s the Minnewashta Heights park shelter for $20, 000. 00 that maybe could be cut from this year ' s budget. Hasek : Those residents , one resident we ' ve heard from indicated that a park shelter may not be what we want there. They may want a half ' L basketball court. Mady: What we need to do is talk with those people. We don ' t need to spend $20, 000. 00 there . I Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14 , 1989 - Page 18 il 47 il Boyt : There are other areas in our budget . Water and electric . Mady: There are some other things to look at . II Sietsema: I think the access road to Bluff Creek is a good one . II$10, 000. 00 there that. . . Boyt : That could be put off for a year . Sietsema: It' s questionable whether we really want it. Access road to a II drainage ditch . IIRobinson : Can we address this then at the same time we address our CIP to see if this fits in? Sietsema: Yes . We need direction to proceed with this though or not to II proceed. Schroers : I think we maybe have someone here from the neighborhood . I Mady: Jeff ' s here for another matter . I 'm sure he 'd be willing to give r his opinion on the Carver Beach trail . II t Jeff Bros: Sure. I agree with Larry. You guys have pretty much told us that we ' re going to have it this year . You ' ll have a lot of mothers really mad at you. What you ' re saying about maybe cutting back a little I or doing it in sections . I don ' t know, Larry, you know the area real well . To save a few bucks to get started with , do you think you could just start it at Chaparral? There isn ' t anybody coming from CR 17 . From II CR 17 to Chaparral , I don ' t know how much it would get used from that point . Schroers : I guess I ' d rather see a portion of it go in than none at all II but I think when you do things in portions like that, instead of dealing with an issue once , you end up dealing with it 2 times or 3 times and it gets to be less cost efficient that way for sure and more expensive in the long run so if we could figure out a way to get it in , do it right the first time, that would definitely be my preference and I would prefer to work towards that end like we' ve been talking about look at the capital improvement program and seeing if we can switch some funds around there to cover the cost that we need here . Sietsema : Something that we may want to consider is to call the residents ' back in here and ask them if they'd be willing to be assessed for it , for a portion of it. Share costs . Something like that . Would they be willing to help pay for it? 1 Mady: My personal opinion that Lori is that , if we had no other way of . getting this done at our disposal and Council couldn' t find a way, then we II would have to look at that but I don' t even want to discuss that . Me personally, I don ' t even want to discuss that at this point in time. II II r II Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14 , 1989 - Page 19 II (7 . Hasek : It seems to me that the trail system isn ' t in place simply for the abutting property owners and I 'm going to get on my soap box once again . II It ' s in place for all of the people in the city and it should be shared by all of the people in the City as should the expenses for parks and the accessibility of parks and trails and so forth . We' re not talking about a II stream of people that live along Carver Beach Road . We' re talking about an overall trail system and park system and a way of life out here. Sietsema: It was an idea. I didn ' t say it was a good idea . IJeff Bros : Has there been any estimates on if the trail would be cheaper on the north side of Carver Beach? As a neighborhood we came originally I and asked for it to cross at Redwing there and then go up the north side . Would it be cheaper to do it on the north side than the south side or is it a wash? IIMady: It ' s 6 of one , half a dozen of the others . There ' s some trade offs between both sides . I Jeff Bros : Our main reason for the neighborhood , keep it on the south side because we ' ve got zero response from the neighborhood and the Public Safety Department as to a stop sign at Redwing and that was our , if we I could get the stop sign, then we wanted it on the north side but it doesn ' t look like we' re going to get that so for safety reasons , it might as well stay on the south side. If it would be cheaper to run it on the north side , if we get some pressure applied from you people to the Public Safety Department . . . Sietsema : As I've indicated before it ' s not the Public Safety Department . You Ihave to go to the Engineering Department to ask for that stop sign. I Jeff Bros : We ' ve asked the Public Safety Department to come out and do a speed check. Sietsema : They did and they' re included . IHasek: I don ' t know if you ' ve seen these. IJeff Bros : No I haven' t. Hasek : They' ve been out there on several occasions and the ones that I I have, they' ve got speed limits , they' ve got people speeding up to 39 to 40 mph but they didn ' t issue any tickets and I guess my question is why? Boyt: Their philosophy has been, unless it ' s 10 mph over the speed limit , I you don ' t issue a citation . Right now there are poeple asking to have that philosophy changed on the Public Safety Commission to try. . . Robinson : I don ' t think is a Park and Rec issue and I don ' t know why we' re discussing it. We told the residents when they were here they'd have to go to Public Safety so I don ' t know why we were issued this detailed report. We don' t need to see the date, the average speed and why I I Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14, 1989 - Page 20 they didn ' t issue a ticket or anything . Hasek: I think it was just a matter of discussion . ' Sietsema : It was requested and that ' s why it was brought back. Boyt: There' s one piece of information in here that to me doesn ' t make any sense at all . The average speed of all the vehicles means nothing . If 10 of them are going over 30 mph and 4 are going under, we' re concerned with those that are going above the speed limit . Every single one of them. Robinson : This is not a Park and Rec issue . Can we get on? , Boyt: Are we going to nominate Ed for Chair? Hasek : No , we ' re not . Next week. ' Schroers : Getting more back to the subject Lori , with this cost estimate , how much are we over what we had originally anticipated? How much money do we have to make up? Boyt: $58 , 000. 00. r Sietsema: We had roughly $25 , 000 . 00 to $30, 000 . 00 that was put aside for this project so over and above that is what we have to come up with. That would be about $53 , 000 . 00 . Schroers: We have a third almost? Sietsema: Right . Robinson : Can we look possibly at cutting that? Do we need to sod that area? There' s maybe $500. 00 worth of sod in there. Hasek : When I looked through this , I didn ' t see any of the items that could necessarily be eliminated. If there was something put on my front yard , knowing what the weather has been and knowing the maintenance that it takes to get seed to grow in this community, I certainly want them to replace what I ' ve been maintaining so I think the sod is essential . If we go right down through it , the only thing , the timber retaining is necessary to hold up the dirt in order to get that trail in place . Pedestrian pipe railing is there to keep people on the trail and avoid a difficult situation . Schroers : what is the CB? Relocate CB? Scott Harri : Catch basins . The storm sewer . Schroers : Then we have two different thicknesses of sidewalks . One 4 inch and one 6? Scott Harri : Yes . The 6 inch would be in the driveway area . ■ I Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14, 1989 - Page 21 Mady: A comment on the sodding , I think the Commission should look at this project as the first step of our trail plan. I think it ' s very, very I important that when we put in this very first segment , that we' re doing it right. Where it ' s going to look beautiful . Have the minimum impact. I think that ' s very, very important for us to do it right the first time so I if it costs a couple dollars more to do it right the first time, I think for the future of our trail plan and the future our City getting these things , be done correctly and look well . We need to do this first one right . I believe it ' s not going to be found in our capital improvement I program for this year but next year do the trail things that we can get this job done . I Schroers : I agree with that too . I think that we have to go with quality. We don' t want to do half the job. We want to get it done . I Hasek : Is this an indication of what we may be having g to pay for trails in the future if we decide to go concrete or is this one exorbinately high because of some inplace structures and some things that have to be done? I Scott Harri : Concrete will always be inherently more expensive than bituminous or asphalt trails . In this , if I were to break out the Laredo Drive portion from Carver Beach portion, again, the Laredo Drive portion Iwould be on a pure foot basis cheaper to do because there ' s simply less r obstacles and less opportunities to solve this problems . But anytime you have a built up area where people have existing driveways and trees and hedges and benches , etc . , these are the sort of remodeling things that ' need to get done . Part of the cost of the $15 , 435 . 00 is a contingency of almost $4 , 900. 90 for unknowns . Things that may come up during the course of construction that weren ' t reasonably predicted at the onset here . IMark Koegler : You always have the option to structuring the bid package, if you would so desire, that Laredo might be an Alternate A and Carver I Beach might be an Alternate B and then you 'd have an Alternate A and B so you essentially get 3 bids so if the budget was really a critical consideration , hopefully you could do it all , if the bids came in favorable . . .high, you could do one segment maybe this year and one segment I next year . I know that ' s not your desire but it may be, in reality, a good way to proceed. I Hasek : How much overlap in cost do you think there would be? There must be something in moving equipment to the site and taking it back again . How high do you think the overall cost would go if we split it into two ' pieces? Another $10, 000. 00 to $15, 000. 00 maybe? Just a shot in the dark is better than what we know right now. Mark Koegler : But two pieces you mean two different years? IHasek : Let ' s say two different projects . If it went in an A and a B as opposed to all at once. I(— Mark Koegler : The experience we' ve had in other municipalities recently where it had detached projects for the same contractor has been very Ilittle penalty at all . If we got to subsequent years where we' ve totally I II Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14 , 1989 - Page 22 got remobilization and everything , then I think your number ' s pretty good . But I don' t know if the penalty would be that high . I can ' t envision a scenario that you would do A and B as separate projects . They need to be one project or they'd be separated in different years . Hasek : So then the overall cost you' re suggesting might go $10, 000. 00 or $15, 000. 00 higher if we wanted another year or two? Schroers : What I would like to do here is I 'd like to recommend that we approve this final design and pursue whatever necessary funding for it . Mady: I ' ll second that . Hasek : Do we want to suggest the possibility at this point of sending it out to bids in two sections or can we just simply direct staff to do that? I think that ' s going to be a real viable or potential option here and I don ' t think that we should let this go without doing that and push it back ' another 2 weeks just because we failed to think about something we should have. Boyt : Does that need a motion Lori? Sietsema: Yes . ' Mady: Do you want to amend your motion Larry? Schroers: Let me just make sure that I understand what we ' re saying . ' Hasek : What we ' re simply doing is trying to get staff to , instead of sending this out as one bid package for $82, 550. 00 for the whole piece , ' we' re breaking it in two pieces . The Laredo section and the Carver Beach section. A and B so when it goes out to bid, the bidder is going to give us a cost for A. He ' s going to give us a cost for B. He ' s going to give us a cost for the whole thing. Then we ' ve got our option. He ' s given us options that we can look at . If we can only come up with $50, 000. 00, maybe one of those sections approximately meets that and we ' ll get on that right now and get that done as opposed to letting the whole project wait . Schroers: Okay. Let me redesign my motion. Hasek : Why don ' t you just leave it the way that it is and just add an addendum to it. Just amend it to say. . . Schroers : Okay, amend it to include separate bids for A, Laredo Drive and B, Carver Beach . Sietsema : And C, both . ' Schroers: And C both . Mady: I ' ll amend my second . ' I r ' Park and Rec Commission Meeting February 14 , 1989 - Page 23 r ' i Schroers moved , Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to approve the final design for sidewalks along Carver Beach ' Road and Laredo Road as presented and to pursue the necessary funding . Also, to set up the bid package to include a bid for A, Laredo Drive; B, Carver Beach Road ; and C, both A and B combined . All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mady: Then we ' ll discuss the funding of this project when we go through the Capital Improvement Program discussion. ' VISITOR PRESENTATION - JOHN SEAMANS REGARDING SOFTBALL ELIGIBILITY. Mady: I had number 6 as a visitors presentation regarding softball eligibility. Lori indicated to me that John Seamans asked that this be ' pulled off of our agenda . There are some things that I 'd like to talk about softball eligibility. I know Jeff Bros is here from CAA to give us some comments concerning this . ' Sietsema : Jeff will be here in two weeks with the rest of the people that are against the eligibility rule and they basically wanted to organize the people that were against it and why so they came together with a more r organized format I think. Robinson : Why was this put on the agenda in the first place? 1 Sietsema: Because there are people out there that wanted to appeal to you to modify it or to change it or to delete it . To air their greviances . Robinson: You said there would be hundreds of them probably. ' Boyt : They' re trying to get all of them together rather than coming in themselves so they can all come in two weeks . Hasek : I have a quick question for you . You said we sent it to Council ' have we not? Sietsema : It doesn ' t go to Council . This is our policy that we set . Mady: Council discussed it last night . Hasek : What was their comment? 1 Mady: Well , it was just mainly Tom Workman in Council Presentation just wanted to make the Council aware that the policy was changed and that ' there has been some negative feedback already to the city staff and various members of the commissions and what have you and to just alert them to a very potential issue . Volatile issue . Schroers: I ' ve been confronted by some people personally. I 1 ..VanDorem Hazard Y Stallings ' MEMORANDUM I TO: Lori Sietsema , Park & Recreation Coordinator ' FROM: Scott Harri *-An -,+ -/ , DATE: February 7 , 1989 ' SUBJ : Sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive Improvement Project No . 88-21 ' VHS Project No . 88-316 The purpose of this memorandum is to update the final design recommendations I pursuant to the Park and Recreation Commission meeting of December 13 , 1988 , and the efforts of a citizens action group on Carver Beach Road . In addition , we have attached a detailed Engineers Estimate for the project . 11 The total project cost is estimated to be $82 ,950 including engineering , testing , inspection and contingencies . We will be available to discuss these matters at the February 14 , 1989 , Commission Meeting . I Laredo Drive 1 . Final design to proceed as proposed at the December 13 , 1988 , meeting . II Carver Beach Road 1 . Eliminate the proposed crosswalk at the west end of the park and extend the 5 foot sidewalk to the Nez Perce intersection . 2 . Implementation of Item No . 1 will result in the following : , a . A crosswalk can be established at an existing intersection with 4- way stop sign traffic control . 11 b . A new park entrance must be provided at this location . c . The mailboxes for the two residences on Carver Beach Road at Nez II Perce will be relocated across the street . Minor landscape restoration is also anticipated by the two residences . ' 3 . Extend the cyclone fence westerly and northerly at the west end of the park to discourage the public from accessing the park across private property and to encourage the public to cross at a safe location . ' I 3030 Harbor Lane North Bldg.II, Suite 104 Minneapolis, MN. 55447-2175 612/553-1950 l ' — I CITY OF CHANHASSEN Walkways along Laredo Drive and Carver Beach Road Improvement Project No. 88-21 IENGINEERS ESTIMATE FEBRUARY , 1989 1 ESTIMATED UNIT IITEM QUANTITY PRICE TOTAL 4 " Concrete Sidewalk 15 ,700 SF @ $ 2 . 00 /SF $31 ,400 . 00 6 " Concrete Sidewalk 3 ,750 SF @ $ 2 . 50/SF $ 9 ,375 .00 IExcavated and Dispose 750 CY @ $ 3 . 50 /CY $ 2 ,625 . 00 Pedestrian Pipe Railing 420 LF @ $ 18 . 00 /LF $ 7 ,560 . 00 , Timber Retaining Wall 70 SF @ $ 10 . 00 /SF $ 700 . 00 I Relocate CB 1 EA @ $800 . 00 /EA $ 800 .00 Install New CB 1 EA @ $800 . 00 /EA $ 800 . 00 Rebuild Existing CB 1 EA @ $800 . 00 /EA $ 800 . 00 I Sodding 2 ,850 SY @ $ 3 . 00/SY $ 8 ,550 . 00 Relocate Existing Split Rail Fence 55 LF @ $ 5 . 00 /LF $ 275 . 00 Driveway Repair 120 SY @ $ 9 . 00 /SY $ 1 ,080 . 00 Remodel Fence at Park - - LUMP SUM - - $ 1 ,000 . 00 1 Chain Link Fence 120 LF @ $ 10 . 00/LF $ 1 ,200 . 00 C Standard Signs 9 EA @ $150 . 00 /EA $ 1 ,350 . 00 1 TOTAL ESTIMATED CONSTRUCTION COST $67 ,515 . 00 IEngineering , Testing , Inspection & Contingency $15 ,435 . 00 TOTAL ESTIMATED PROJECT COST $82 ,950 . 00 I I I I I 1(- 1 I CITYOF Nki CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O, BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator FROM: Jim Chaffee, Public Safety Director DATE: February 7, 1989 1 SUBJ: Carver Beach Road 1 We have now completed our radar survey for Carver Beach Road near Penamint and Redwing. As you can see, the average speed of all vehicles recorded during the timeframes that radar was run was less than 30 MPH. At no point were vehicles recorded going at a speed greater than 40 MPH. I have asked the Carver County Sheriff' s Department through Captain Bob Pagelkoof to concentrate radar enforcement efforts on Carver Beach Road. We have also discussed this problem at the last Public Safety Commission meeting and it was a concensus at that time that Scott Harr or Jim Chaffee would meet with the Park and Recreation Commission at their meeting in February to address these concerns . Please let me know if there is anything else I can do in regards to this matter. 1 1 1 1 (- 1 I 11 , Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 31 Hasek : I don ' t know if you made all the discussions with the LMCD but on ' Lake Minnetonka it is illegal for you, unless you are a property owner . Lynn Hall : No it isn ' t . You can have 2 boats . Lake Minnetonka Conservation District, you can have 2 boats or less . Read it. Two boats or less . Anybody can own them if you get permission. Anybody. If you have 3 boats or more, they all have to be licensed to you or your immediate family. Hasek: I guess I would differ with you on that but I don' t have the ordinance here and . . . ' Lynn Hall : I 'm very aware . The gentleman who ' s in charge, his number ' s right here and you can call him. Mady: Let me interrupt you right now. I don ' t believe we ' re getting anyplace. We' ve made our recommendation. Before this gets to the City Council . We have other items on our agenda . We need to get to them. ' We' re not going to resolve this tonight. You ' ve heard our recommendation. We' ve listened to you and now we ' re rehashing and we need to move on. You have your opportunity, hopefully the City Council will bring your ideas up there. Again , if you haven ' t signed the sheet in the back of the room, ' please do so . C ' PUBLIC HEARING: REVIEW CHANGES AND PLANS FOR SIDEWALKS ALONG CARVER BEACH ROAD AND LAREDO DRIVE. Public Present Name Address Ron and Ann Kleve 6770 Penamint Lane Jeff and Cathy Clem 1011 Carver Beach Road Jerry Paulsen 7305 Laredo Drive Joy Javurek 6780 Redwing Lane Chuck Snyder 500 Highland Drive Ray Roettger 3221 Dartmouth Drive ' Jeff and Anne Keeler 6771 Penamint Lane Dave Rahe 1021 Carver Beach Road Mary Jo Moore 3231 Dartmouth Drive ' Jeff and Laura Bros Wally Schwab 6771 Chaparral 950 Carver Beach Road 1 Sietsema : I 'd like to introduce Scott Harri tonight . He ' s the engineer that worked on the plans and he will go through the plans and specs as he ' s prepared them. 1 Scott Harri : Thank you. I 'm going to be making a presentation this way so if there' s anybody interested , I know it ' s hard to get any kind of good functional thing . My name is Scott Harri and it' s my pleasure to be here I Park and Recreation Commission Meeting I December 13 , 1988 - Page 32 tonight to present to you our findings of the final design for the two sidewalk segments. One on Laredo Drive in front of Chan Elementary to Frontier Trail and then also the other segment on Carver Beach Road from Powers Blvd. over to the park. I wrote my staff report with the Laredo Drive first so I have a hard time laying out the order so I ' ll start with this thing. What I intend to do I guess is to simply highlight II some of the design features . Some of the construction related , I guess some of the replacement things that we discovered in both surveying the alignments and also trying to fit the sidewalk in amongst trees , shrubs, II bushes , retaining walls , fences , hydrants , etc . so with that as a prelude, the Laredo Drive trail is in general located on the west side of Laredo Drive all the way from Chan Elementary over to Frontier Trail down in this location. Some of the specific , it's a 5 foot wide concrete sidewalk as 11/you perhaps have been earlier led to believe. Some of the specific design features will be, there' s a group of Russian Olive trees here located by the apartment complex that are somewhat overhanging the sidewalk alignment and we propose trimming some of the overhanging branches to allow for an adequate and safe head room for the users of the sidewalk. Then along this location we have to extend the retaining wall in this location to provide a ladder or level surface to install the sidewalk over here. A very minor repair job to an existing catch basin to permit the pedestrian or handicap access ramp at this intersection with Long View Circle. Then following down to almost the northern end of the project , right here on the intersection of Highland and Laredo , the sideyard here has a fairly steep slope to it and what we propose to do is simply cut a little bench in there so that the sidewalk will lay more level than would be installing II a sidewalk in that manner right there. And then terminating it over at Frontier Trail . Some of the consistent things that we' re going to be doing is painting cross striping at each one of the street intersections over here to denote that it is a pedestrian crosswalk and all areas disturbed by this construction would be sodded. Thirdly, all the improvements that we ' ve got shown here are going to be made available right away. Essentially what that means is , from the back of the curb in II the public right-of-way which is a distance of about 12 to 13 feet , all of the regrading, sidewalk improvements , etc. will be installed in that location . Some additional things regarding the project , each cross street intersection has a stop sign on it so all , I guess motorists traveling and intersecting with Laredo Drive will be stopping at that to further insure that there will be at least the cross traffic stopping the automobile traffic . Does anybody have any questions right now on Laredo Drive based on this comments? I can go through and then open it up for discussion and afterwards or if anybody has any questions now. Ed Hyland: Yes , I have a question. Ed Hyland. Where you ' re going to be II recreating that sloped area , you don' t have any indication as to how much of a slope you' re going to be putting in there? Scott Harri : The grade , there ' s a small typical section shown kind of in the center of the plant just left of the north there on the scale and we'd be providing a 3 to 1 slope starting at the right-of-way line going then , I guess it would be towards the street and then just follow this sidewalk and continuing a variable slope then down to the top of the curb or the edge of the street there. A 3 to 1 slope would be I guess maintainable I Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 33 I I: with the lawnmower and stuff , like that . Boyt: Is the electrical box at the Elementary school in the way? Scott Harri : No . The existing sidewalk has been installed just past it or north of it so it would be connecting on right there. Mady: . . . Kerber ' s retaining wall at all . You ' re going to be abutting up ' to it. Do you anticipate having to disturb what ' s there? Scott Harri : No we don ' t . All the construction work will be up kind of close to it. It' s stuff we don' t anticipate to do to the depth of the excavation or any of the reworking in the area that will actually disturb it at all . This segment of the sidewalk system is proposed from Powers Drive over to a general , the park. The park starts about right here on ' the plan and goes all the way to Nez Perce over in this location right here . Our proposal is to construct a 5 foot concrete sidewalk entirely along the southern alignment of Carver Beach Road all the way from Powers over to the park. Some of the specific features that we would be looking at is we would be making some jogs in the trail to avoid a hydrant in this location . To avoid a very, very large tree over in this location and then running along the edge of this steep embankment where we would be proposing a rail on the edge of the sidewalk to prevent anybody from I guess going over the edge and down into the abyss down in here. Some of the other features of the system and perhaps some of the reasons why the trail was actually originally contemplated in initial discussions to jog and to cross Carver Beach here, some location at Redwing Drive and then be constructed along the northern right-of-way. We found through the survey ' that there ' s only about 8 to 9 feet of space from the curb to the right-of-way line over here and with the existing mailboxes, hydrants , hedges , trees , there ' s storm sewer in this and some other features , that it required additional right-of-way either to be acquired , purchased , or ' negotiated or something in order to get the trail to be constructed over along the north side. We discovered that initially when we first got the survey and plotted out all the data , so we looked for an alternative . A ' way that we could still , I guess meet the attention of getting both bicycle and pedestrian movement over to the park from where I guess I would consider dominant residential neighborhoods here to the south. Get them to move them safely over here . Now in addition to that , the crosswalk that we are proposing over here, we ' re proposing a number of warning devices and also what we hope will be a security device in that we 'd have two pedestrian warning signs erected for both eastbound and ' westbound traffic and also two pedestrian crossing signs to be erected right on the trail crossing . In addition to that , we are working with NSP to get a street light installed over here that would obviously be compatible with the type of small area security lighting and still be compatible with the residential neighborhood back over in this location . Additionally we 'd be doing some drainage improvement work. There' s the large I guess impression in the front of this yard right here. We'd be filling it in and hauling it in the street and we'd have to relocate this catch basin over here. There are a number of cable TV boxes and telephone boxes along. Some of them will have to be moved a foot or two to permit the sidewalk to be constructed . Again , all areas disturbed by 1 Park and Recreation Commission Meeting I December 13 , 1988 - Page 34 c ' construction would be sodded following completion of the sidewalk and all of the improvements that we do have shown on here would be made within the available right-of-way. I guess with that I 'd open it up for questions . Jeff Keeler : I have a question. My name is Jeff Keeler at 6771 Penamint Lane. My particular question is , I have a watering system, sprinkling system that I had installed quite some time ago which enables the lawn to be watered automatically for my particular needs . With what you ' re proposing , I 'm going to have to be moving all my sprinkling heads . Who ' s II going to pay for that? Scott Harri : I guess we were unaware that you had a sprinkler system but that would be the type of cost that would be born by this project is to accommodate I guess relocation of the sprinkling lines to facilitate the installation of the sidewalk. Hasek: Are the sprinkler heads in the public right-of-way or on your own property? Jeff Keeler : They' re on my own property. Hasek : And does your sprinkler sprinkle at night or in the morning? Anne Keeler : It' s an automatic sprinkler system and it was p ut in to make maintenance of our lawn easier . . . Hasek: Sure , absolutely. I understand that . Anne Keeler : There are extensions below the ground. It extends out toward the edge of the street . We have had problems in the past with the street being reblacktopped and whatever and destroying our sod and we ' ve had to fight with the City to get even our lawn repaired from the damage done already. Hasek: That' s a city problem. Am I to understand that maybe you do have some sprinkle heads that are on public property? Anne Keeler : They' re at the edge of our green lawn . Hasek: Along the street? ' Anne Keeler : They' re at the edge of the lawn , yes . Sietsema: So that isn' t the right-of-way. Scott Harri : We will be replacing those as needed . i Anne Keeler : It wouldn ' t be logical for us to put a sprinkler head however , 5 feet in from the lawn to water our lawn. ( Scott Harri : What was your address Jeff? Jeff Keeler : 6771 Penamint Lane . I i . I Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 35 II Anne Keeler : We ' re at the corner of Penami.nt and Carver Beach Road . It' s the property which is half of the woods in addition to the corner . So we go halfway down where you' ve proposed construction . Right after the drainage easement there. IScott Harri : Here ' s the culvert and the drainage easement . Okay, and then back over here. Fine. We ' ll certainly take a look at that and make I sure that there is , in most cases along the trail system or the sidewalk system, a variable boulevard between the sidewalk and the edge of the curb and it varies depending upon what types of improvements were already existing now. We ' re trying to avoid what in general along the property, I we ' re prosposing about a 2 1/2 foot sodded boulevard between the edge of the sidewalk and the street. It ' s extremely likely that your sprinkler heads may, from what you describe , fall within that zone already and I therefore maybe all we have to do is lower the pipes down so that when we install the sidewalk it wouldn ' t be a problem but we ' ll certainly want to look at it and find out where they' ve been installed and there will be II some, I guess minor inconvenience during the construction but we ' ll work with you on getting them relocated so that you still have the same type of combination and effective watering that you have right now. ICathy Clem: My name is Cathy Clem and I live at 1011 Carver Beach Road (\ where the giant cottonwood tree is . That great big tree that you plan to go around . Now you say that there ' s going to be a boulevard. Is that Igoing to be all the way along the length of the sidewalk? Scott Harri : Yes . 1 Cathy Clem: How big of a boulevard? Scott Harri : If this is your residence right here? ICathy Clem: 1011. Big trees and the . . . I Scott Harri : Yes. Okay, it varies . Into the west side of your driveway will be very narrow. In fact , perhaps about zero feet in that location and then on the east side of the driveway it will start off the . . .back to perhaps about 10 feet back from the curb as it goes behind the tree there . ISo it kind of takes a circuitous route. Jeff Clem: That dead box elder , you ' re going to be taking that out of Ithere aren' t you? Cathy Clem : I worry about it falling on someone . IJeff Clem: On the west side. That has to be taken out . I ,,, Cathy Clem: It ' s like about 3 feet from the road and I was worried , with C the sidewalk running there, we were planning on checking into how they handle that anyway. I don ' t know if the City' s responsible._or wha t--but we- ha-v-e had ranches fart . II Park and Recreation Commission Meeting i December 13 , 1988 - Page 36 Boyt : Is this on your property you say? Cathy Clem: Yes , it ' s on our property within the right-of-way. 1 Mady: What they do in Minneapolis , even with boulevard trees , it ' s your responsibility for the trees . If we' re doing this , it might be an opportunity for us . Boyt : Taking down trees is really expensive. . . Jeff Clem: Another thing on that cottonwood, when you ' re coming west, that cottonwood sits right at the bottom of the hill . The kids are going to be kids and there' s going to be more than 1 of the kids that are going 11 to be able to make the turn and they' re going to smack right into that bottom. Cathy Clem: We worry about the bikes coming down that hill . We ' re real concerned about our kids on the sidewalk or anybody' s kids on their bikes coming down that wonderful steep sidewalk . . . I realize that would be a problem on either side. Resident : While we ' re talking about the big hill , . . .we wanted the sidewalk on the other side of the road across from Redwing Lane. The \ crosswalk i.s at the top of the hill . Cars come around the road . . .going into Powers Blvd . . Anyway, people whip around that corner and they go, no lie , 60 mph to book up that hill . You can ' t see anybody at the top of that hill . Going up or coming down and the kids at the top aren ' t going to see them coming either . Cathy Clem: When we ' re walking we have to come all the way up to the edge of the hill and look down before you can see and that ' s an adult. You can ' t see. It ' s very bad . Wally Schwab: My name is Wally Schwab at 950 . I am at the property adjacent to the park on the north side. These people are talking about people coming from Powers Blvd . and the kids tearing up the street that way. I have an opportunity living where I live to see all the kids tearing down the street and they can ' t see the people down at the park so it' s a two fold situation. Where we 've got to do something about controlling the speed of the traffic going . . . Mady: Can I ask a question on that? I know when we looked at this originally we referred you to the Public Safety. Have they dealt with that at all? Wally Schwab : No . Mady: That ' s their job. We can recommend that they do somethin g but . . . CResident: They will if someone dies . i Mady: Unfortunately, that ' s why the trails didn ' t pass is that people don' t feel there ' s a problem yet and we' ll probably have to kill somebody II i ' Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 37 to get the problem. I feel sorry about that . Resident: I ' ve almost been hit on Carver Beach twice myself. Once Halloween night and there happen to be a police officer who lives on our block. It happened that he was right there and we told him and he went after and arrested 3 kids and they ended up in jail . But there were about 6 of us adults there that almost got wiped out. Anne Keeler : Could I also make a comment , being that we are unsatisfied with the street and I 'm out frequently at night with our dog. It ' s very dangerous on that side of the street . As a matter of fact, there is often automobile tracks on our grass because people are so careless . When they whip over the hill , they' re driving onto our property. They' ve also driven onto our property in the wooded area. The minute they pass that drainage easment , there ' s also tracks there on the grass . I don ' t know ' that people are going to see that when they come over that hill . The problem is really terribly dangerous at that corner and our side in particular is dangerous . I find it safer to cross the street to walk out ' at night than to be on our side of the street . Also , the other concern was the fact that the woods , if you ' ve looked at that area where the drainage easement begins , it drops off immediately into a steep hill . I II r don ' t see where you ' re going to find 5 feet even to put in a sidewalk without it dropping off. _ Hasek : Is that station 1250-1415 that you ' re kind of addressing here? Scott Harri. : Right. ' Cathy Clem: I have a question . I 'm the one who started the petition originally. . .and I went specifically to the homeowners on the north side of Carver Beach Road and every single one of them signed the petition and said if you have to cut through my hedge or cut my hedge back a little ' bit, if I have to do this , I don ' t care . I 'm in favor of putting a trai.lway in here. So my question to you is , did you check with any of the homeowners on that side? Mady: No . Resident : . . .As first time homeowners , I didn ' t know about right-of-ways . I 'm sorry. Now I do . Cathy Clem: How are you going to put 5 foot concrete sidewalk in there and not disturb our trees? And there ' s a watermain right there. What do they do with those? Do they just move them closer and repipe them and all that? I don ' t know. ' Anne Keeler : There ' s no corners on the other side of the street . We have 3 blocks . . . Mady: The concerns we have, we recognize the safety problem. Unless we can get those right-of-ways given to us , the bottom line is budget. The trail thing failed . We don ' t have any money. We scraped this thing through last year . We just stole a tennis court out of another park and Park and Recreation Commission Meeting I December 13 , 1988 - Page 38 that ' s where this came from. Sorry Curt. That ' s where we got the money last year because it ' s such a serious problem and we recognize it but to have to go out and buy additional easements , I don ' t know if we ' ve got , we really don' t have the money to do that . Jeff Keeler : So what you' re saying is money is worth more than life? ' Mady: No. Jeff Keeler : That ' s what you' re saying . Hasek: That ' s what the people of this community told you . Mady: We don ' t have an opportunity to spend anymore than we' ve g ot . That ' s what I 'm telling you. That ' s it right there. Could we maybe put it on both sides ultimately but this is an opportunity, if we can get kids II off the street that we can do. We don ' t know when we ' ll have the money honestly. We tried the trail thing twice and it ' s failed twice. Resident: I don ' t understand . When you ' ve got 9 feet and the sidewalk is only 5 feet wide , that gives you an extra 4 feet to play with so I don' t understand where you ' re having problems when you 've got 9 feet of existing right-of-way right? The sidewalk is only 5 feet and that gives you 4 feet of play. My recollection of that north side of Carver Beach Road , that 4 feet should be more than enough play in there. More so than on the south side . 1 Scott Harri : I think your recollection is quite accurate . There is a lot of space that is available . The biggest stumbling block is coming with this hydrant that ' s located over here . With this , I guess a monument type mailbox . There are a number of real large evergreen trees here. That trunk and stuff is perhaps 15 to 18 feet behind the curb but they' re so humongous that we 'd have to just literally chop half the tree away in order to put the sidewalk there . I 'm looking , personally I 'm looking at those things as far as some of my decision making and recommendation. I 'd like to perhaps address some of the philosophy about why I guess we were recommending that this be the preferred alternative. Even though I recognize , I think your arguments and your suggestions , I feel that the predominant location is going to come from people traveling from the south to the north up these three streets . If we propose a crossing here , that doesn' t permit necessarily a safe crossing for people using Penamint over here. By placing the sidewalk entirely on the south side , it allows for the majority of the users to have direct access without having to cross Carver Beach Road at anyplace except over here where there really is a more formal designated location. The traveling motorists, it would be my hope that they would recognize this as a more predominant pedestrian area seeing as that is located . . . ( Resident : We have cars . . . Resident : Why wouldn' t you bring it all the way up to Nez Perce where there' s a 4 way stop so that all traffic has to stop there anyway and have people crossing there? i I , . I Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 39 li 17 Scott Harri : The location of most of the child active play equipment sits down here on the west side so it ' s most likely that, and here ' s the fence , the end of the fence is right here , it' s more likely that people would jump off, cross Carver Beach Road , sneak around in to come and use the IIpark over in this location as opposed to coming around . . . Jeff Clem: That ' s a park so the old lady. . . IIScott Harri : That would be the place to park. That ' s correct. That ' s where you'd park. IResident : First there was Lori ' s petition and hopefully we got a lot of this started and everybody agreed . . . I Mady: We spent a lot of time looking at that street. Specifically about this trail and we need to do whatever we can do. Whoever wants to do something and you ' re looking for the best thing . We may not be able to do I the number one best thing this year but by god , if we can get those kids off the street because right now they' re on the street . They have no choice . Anything is better than what we ' ve got right now. We ' re not looking to create a problem situation but we definitely will be giving Ithem something that they don ' t have right now. That ' s where I know I 'm coming from. I feel . sorry for those kids every day and we ' ve got to do something about them IIBoyt : . . .bends around the corner . Continue the sidewalk, not all the way to Nez Perce. A little further so it ' s over the crest of the hill . Make a nice entrance into the park for the kids a third of the way down , half the way down. Something that ' s very inviting for them to go into . Resident : So they' re crossing at a 4 way stop. So all traffic stops . Is ' that what you ' re saying? Boyt : We ' re not allowed to put stop signs I don ' t think. I wasn ' t I talking about going all the way to Nez Perce but we could . We could send it down there . Make a new entrance into the park there. We ' ve talked about landscaping needs to be done at that park. Move the entrance down there for the kids . Make it very exciting . rResident: I do have a trail for people taking the shortcut from the street up into the park. We ' re talking here about a path to make things I safer for the kids , which I 'm all in favor of as I ' ve got a kid myself but the one thing I keep hearing over and over again is controlling the traffic on that street. IBoyt : But we can ' t control that here . Resident: . . . if we can' t control that, all the sidewalks isn ' t going I - is . . . Resident : But if you ' re going to plan a sidewalk that requires IIcrosswalks , than it would be better to have the stop signs as a part of . 1 Park and Recreation Commission Meeting ' December 13 , 1988 - Page 40 C the proposed plan wouldn ' t you think? Boyt : We can make the recommendation about those stop signs but from what I 've heard, they don' t like you to put them in the middle of the road where there ' s not an intersection. It ' s real tough to get one there so we'd have to go down to the corner . 1 Hasek: What ' s wrong with the corner of Penamint Lane here? Mady: I know Jim Chaffee ' s talked about this. It' s been in, not this particular street maybe but other streets . They won ' t put a stop sign in to control traffic. To slow traffic down . Resident: Why not? Mady: I don ' t know but that ' s what we' re told . ' Resident: But Near Mountain got all these stop signs . . . Mady: I feel sorry for you and I agree with you 100% . We don ' t have the II opportunity to do anything about it. That 's a public safety. I 'm surprised they have not. . . Sietsema: Well , it isn ' t exactly public safety. Stop signs and traffic is really engineering and that ' s probably why Public Safety Commission has not seen it because it ' s really an engineering issue because it ' s got to go by what MnDot ' s standards are. We can ' t just arbitrarily go up and say this is a busy street , let ' s put a stop sign to slow down traffic . MnDot mandates when and where and how you can put up stop signs . To put it up on a through street . . . , Resident : . . .people who need to know, listen to the tape of this conversation and see if we can convince them that something needs to be done. Resident : Or just tell us to show up someplace and we ' ll show up . Boyt: We did. We asked you to go to the Public Safety Commission. It' s a group of volunteer people like us . They need to hear your concerns about fast cars. You need to go to the volunteers . You need to go to the Commission so the can make a recommendation on what can be done in your neighborhood. Sietsema : I will talk to Jim Chaffee and ask him where that petition is and what the status is and I will also talk to Gary Warren who is the City Engineer and ask him what the status of this is as well . Hasek: Can we get back to the trails then. The sidewalks . CResident: Than it seems to me that it ' s not in the best interest to approve the sidewalk on the south side until we have addressed the real concerns which is the safety, just because it ' s more cost effective. Safety is the issue. I 1 , Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 41 f Mady: You' re right but what I 'm trying to tell you is that we ' re not going to have any extra money this summer . Resident : Than don ' t do it. Wait . ' Sietsema : You 'd rather have no trail? ' Mady: You'd rather have no trail and have kids in the street? Resident: I 'd rather have you look seriously into the north side of it and the cost comparatives . Hasek: What you understand is you ' re bypassing an opportunity here because your opportunity is gone. You ' ve turned down an opportunity that ' you had . There are other places in the City where this needs to be done and the money which was slated for this is going to go someplace else. Do you want to wait? I 'm talking years for this to happen again because that ' s what it ' s going to be. I ' ve got a trail that doesn ' t exist in my neighborhood and I 'm not going to sit around and wait . I 'm pushing very, very hard to get it done. This tells me that if you don ' t want i.t, that this is dollars available for me . IIResident : This tells me that somebody is still going to be killed whethere there ' s a sidewalk or not. Hasek : What we ' re trying to do is to put it in . It ' s an opportunity that we have and we ' re trying to get it done to the best of our ability right ' now. I certainly don ' t want to recommend not approving the trail simply because there ' s an issue that we have no control over . Resident : But you ' ve got the right to qualify it right? ' Hasek: Qualify what? Certainly, we ' ll make recommendations . Absolutely. Y ' Resident : I have a question for you. Do you feel that you have adequately checked the north side that you would have the right not even saying that the . . . is unfeasible to run it on the north side? Scott Harri : Well , without acquiring additional some right-of-way. Hasek: We don ' t have the money. Mady: Unless the people are willing to give it to us , we don ' t have the money to acquire it . ' Resi dent : Do you have the time to check on that? To get together with any neighbors to see? Mady: Sure . Certainly. Resident : I understand if we can ' t run it up the north side, than I guess I would feel most comfortable with it crossing where we've got a I Park and Recreation Commission Meeting 1 December 13 , 1988 - Page 42 II controlled cross and not just arbitrarily across Carver Beach Road someplace and relying on flashing signs . If we ' re going to do it , if it' s ' going to go on the south side, let ' s run it all the way to Nez Perce where it ' s a 4 way stop. Everybody has to stop and let ' s let our kids cross safely and let ' s put a park entrance around the back. We' re not cutting across his lawn down and get them that way. Rather than not doing the trail at all , then let ' s do it that way but I really feel like I 'd like to have them check into the north side if at all possible. If that is not feasible, then let ' s run it up the south side and up to that 4 way stop. II Hasek: Scott? Scott Harri : Yes . I Hasek : What ' s the possibility, I guess I didn ' t track all of this , what ' s the possibility of crossing at, I mean is that a real bad vertical I elevation right there? Scott Harri : The actual top of the hill is right at Penamint right now. I So therefore, if we propose a crossing to get them north across at that location, the hydrant just on the north side and east of Penamint and the large evergreens that exist right there on that piece of property, that ' s the major obstacle on the north side is this area right in here with the II hedge and the mailbox are and the hydrant and the large evergreen trees right there . . there ' s the one evergreen and when you chop it . . . IIResident: . . .chop that much, it would be right next to the sidewalk would be right next to the road? Scott Harri : There would be a . . .would have to come off . I Resident: The City of Minneapolis has sidewalks going right around fire hydrants on both sides . Why couldn ' t that be done here? I Scott Harri : I guess we never did consider putting a dual thing like that but it ' s . . .close enough to the street where we could possibly go behind II it. Resident : . . . I ' ve been aware of this situation for quite some time , about the sidewalk situation. I ' ve done a lot of this work as far as sidewalks and dirt work and everything and this is really the best feasible plan to do. On the south side you ' re going to butcher up, just like you said, that evergreen , moving fire hydrants , acquiring land is much , much more II costly. This way you ' re going to get it in and I agree with stopping it there is very bad . This is true . There ' s nothing we can do right now but I can see it going up to Nez Perce. It ' s not hard to do. It isn ' t that hard . If I would have time , I could have probably gotten you enough fill II to do that whole run all the way up there. . .where you wouldn ' t need a handrail . I could have sloped it and whatever . I ' ve done it all over the place in a lot of different situations here in the city. You' ve got to go li with it and it ' s going to take time but this is the way it should be done. All of your kids are on the south side. You' re going to have them cross the street? Kids aren ' t going to cross the street ever . They go across II ■ Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 43 there and then go down Penamint and then they' re going to go down to Redwing and cross at the crossing? They' re going to go right across . This way they' re on the south side . There ' s only a few on the north side. Resident: Do you live facing the street? Because you' re saying all the ' kids are on the south side and I guess I wouldn ' t agree with that based on the observation. . . Resident : The concentration of kids. Mady: Yes , where are the kids coming from that will go to that park? Resident : That black area where he ' s got it going across to the park now, that ' s a flat area for the kids . On their bikes , they can go right straight down if it ' s easy for them to do . If it ' s hard , they' re not ' going to do it until it gets flat and that is a flat area . . . .keep going , you go up to Nez Perce and then cross them there later . At least for now you ' re getting them off the road in a very bad situation on that hill . Resident : It says in here that you propose to put up a 30 mph speed limit sign west of the Nez Perce intersection. Why would you want 30 mph? That ' s way too fast . IMady: Because we can ' t post less than that . Legally you can ' t p ost less than 30. Resident : Why? Mady: It ' s a State law. ' Resident: 30 mph is too fast down that hill . Resident : Then don ' t post anything at all . Put a safety sign up . Caution, Children Playing . You don ' t even post the speed . Resident : Tonka Bay has them. Resident: I ' ve seen signs with 20 and 25 before . Mady: You' ll have to go to Council . You ' ll have to take this to Council . ' If we get back to this subject again , that again is a public safety situation . ' Resident : It ' s still part of this . I just wanted to bring that up . I live at the bottom of that hill and if the speed limit is 30, they' re going to go 40J. Ir Resident : A recommendation looks better for 20 from you guys than it does 30. Even though. . . Park and Recreation Commission Meeting ' December 13 , 1988 - Page 44 Mady: Don ' t y misinterrupt that . It ' s not going to do any good from us . You' re going to have to go to Public Safety for that . We' ll try for you II but don ' t get your hopes up based on us . Resident: What is the propose. . .on whole area along the sidewalk? Is it basically 3 feet feet along the whole thing? ' Scott Harri : It ' s about 2 feet across over here to Chaparral . It varies from 3 feet and in general about 4 feet with one exception over at this I location. All the way across here to this point is 4 feet and in here it narrows down to 2 feet and gets right along adjoining the street at about zero feet here. Then it varies back at this location from 3 feet to 10 feet as it jobs around the large tree and it follows about 3 1/2 feet to this point where it jobs back to the street at about 0 feet. Follows at 0 feet to avoid a very large tree over in this location and then jogs back to about 3 feet and 2 1/2 the rest of the way until it gets right along , the street here again . Resident : How will you handle that going around the . . .and you ' re moving our fence. Scott Harri : We are proposing , yes your fence to be moved back, it ' s about 3 feet so it moves back up against that existing tree. You ' ll still c the same alignment there but we ' ll have enough space in front of it between the fence and the street to put the sidewalk in . Resident : And that tree , you say it will fit? Scott Harri : Yes , that tree will stay. We don ' t have to take that tree as a result of this construction . In fact , not along any of this corridor are we proposing to taking any trees . Resident : I don ' t know how you can fit it in by our Spruce . It ' s close . I I hope you can . . .great. We don' t have a backyard. If you take over our frontyard , what do we have? I want a sidewalk, believe me but the closer to the road it is, the happier we ' ll be. 1 Scott Harri : Exactly and that ' s one of our desires also is to keep the sidewalks as close to the road but still at a reasonably safe distance from the existing road . But we don ' t want to see the sidewalk run so it ' s like right outside your front window. That ' s defeating the whole purpose also . Resident : Why did you have concrete proposal over asphalt? Scott Harri : Concrete is proposed in all urban built up areas . Sietsema: Because it goes in the front of homes , it was felt that it wa s ( a more attractive surface. Mady: In previous public meetings, one of the concerns was people didn ' t want blacktop in front of their house. They didn' t mind cement sidewalks so much but blacktop. ' IF II Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 45 II f II Resident : I 'd probably have to agree with you but I think it ' s also . . . concrete sidewalks with creases every 10 feet . Scott Harri : There will be joints in the sidewalk every 5 feet . Because II this will be new construction, perhaps it ' s not like you found where the joints are really faulted and these are terribly large bumps and things . This should be a fairly smooth transition across each one. ISchroers : I have a question that hasn ' t been brought up yet . When you cross the driveways with the sidewalk, particularly at just west of II Redwing Lane , the corner house there has a driveway that ' s at a very steep angle. When you run your sidewalk across there, do you run it across or do you just come up to the driveway and then taper it off and then start the sidewalk again on the other side of the driveway? IIScott Harri : I guess this plan actually depicts the sidewalk starting and stopping on each driveway. I guess taking different recommendations to I the Commission and you right now, for a number of reasons , what we ' ve proposed , constructing the sidewalk through everyone' s driveway and there is , I guess some really good reasons to do that . Number one , and this has to do really with the maintenance of the sidewalk. If we stop the sidewalk in everybody' s driveway, who ' s going to be responsible then for f the upkeep of what would be kind of a private driveway in the public k- sidewalk area so our recommendation would be to extend the sidewalk II through there. Then when the snowplowing and . . . thi.ngs occur , there ' s less chance to damage that portion of the driveway and other things . We would prefer to see, let ' s say for instance if a puddle developed in your I driveway for instance , where it ' s along the alignment of this thing , who would have to come out and repair the pothole in your driveway? If we come in now and install a sidewalk through there , I guess the City would be in a position to respond . . . IResident : You mean there ' s going to be a lip that we have to drive our car over? IIScott Harri : No , there wouldn ' t be. It would all be constructed to match the grade and be very level with your present driveway. Schroers : So on that driveway that has a very steep angle , on that driveway the sidewalk would conform to that angle? IScott Harri. : Exactly. That ' s correct . Schroers : So he ' s not going to have to go up over a bump? IScott Harri : No . It wouldn ' t be this real bumpy thing . Now there may be some slight transition in there if the crossload gets too expensive on the thing . We don ' t anticipate that happening though. IResident: Is this entire trail going to be wheelchair accessible? Scott Harri : Yes . 11 Park and Recreation Commission Meeting , December 13 , 1988 - Page 46 Jerry Paulsen , 7305 Laredo : I live at the end of Laredo . I anxiously wait the installation of the sidewalk. I have children who have to walk to school , or they can not be bused . I think it ' s a very critical issue for the City. I hope the next time the referendum comes up it passess by 2 votes or whatever . I think even in the winter if they' re not shoveled , 11 I think it ' s a good feature. Resident : One of her question about the split rail fence and that would be replaced . Will our hedge also be replaced? Scott Harri : There ' s a hedge there too? Underneath the fence? Yes . That will be. . . Resident : Also , you said the money is there already. Will there be any assessments? 1 Mady: No . None. Zero . Resident : Is there two sidewalks . . . Mady: Yes . Resident : This may sound stupid but what can I say. We ' ve got the baby 11 hill that goes down right across from the park that we ' re all talking about okay. The way I understand it , as years go by, they' ll get steeper . They do. They wash away. The ground washes away and stuff will squash right down the hill . Mady: With that situation , what the City has . . . the City has a continuing II process where they fill in those things . They fix them. They repair them as they occur . They try to watch out . Resident: Does it have to be a 5 foot sidewalk? If you went to a narrower sidewalk on the north side , would that . . . Scott Harri : The safe recommended separation , or I shouldn ' t say safe but a good use width for two people passing and the walking space is 5 feet. Allow 2 1/2 feet per person . Anything narrower and you ' re likely going to find people walking on the trails . And interestingly, the standards , the more you give to a person, the less space you actually need . Hasek: I guess I have a quick question related to that . You' ve got , apparently where there' s a fairly steep area you ' ve got a handrail running alongside which effectively decreases the width of that sidewalk. Is that something that we should maybe take a second look at? Scott Harri : I think there' s 6 inches that we could expand that out to to insure that there ' s a nominal of 5 foot width in there . This is one of those areas that compromises . It ' s an area that ' s a little bit more difficult. I believe that there is 6 inches that we could expand out because that actual flash brought up there varies from about 5 to about 7 feet wide before it actually drops off so there ' s an adequate space up 1 . Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 47 II f there that we can get a few more inches . Resident : Now that you mention that handrail , what ' s the handrail going to be like? Is it going to be a rail that ' s only like 2 1/2 feet off the ground or is it going to have a spot there that kids won ' t fall through? ' Scott Harri : It will be a regular round , inch and a half diameter pipe handrail that will be about 42 inches high. . . It will be fairly strudy. Mady: That ' s one of the things . . .and I think I mentioned it to Lori when we were talking about this . Maybe you want to consider a chainlink fence there instead of a handrail . Hasek: I don ' t want to see a chainlink fence . I 'd rather see another couple of rails woven into the railing than a chainlink fence. ' Resident : That is a steep hill and we do have small children walking around there that just, I ' ve got them too . ' Resident : Maybe if the top rail was a little wider so it ' d be a problem for kids to hang onto , maybe it 'd be a little bit less attractive. You know 1 1/2 , 2 inch pipe , a kid can wrap their hand around pretty well . IMady: I think we need to maybe move a little bit on this . The Commissioners need some discussion. See what their thoughts are. Resident : Can I toss one more question in about that portion of the sidewalk. Apparently sir you feel confident that there is not a flat surface there . That down the road a few years that sidewalk isn ' t going to start sliding on down the hill? You aren ' t going to have to do a lot of filling in down along the hill there? ' Boyt: I think we ought to go with the sidewalk that ' s proposed . Robinson : It sounded like the majority recommends going down here on the south side and then go across . Oh , is that what you ' re saying? Boyt : Yes . . . ' Robinson : That ' s what I would prefer . Hasek: I think we ought to go with it as proposed with the extension down to Nez Perce and I think we ought to send along a little comment about the traffic hazards to the Council just to let them know that we' re concerned about it. Mady: I have a question of staff . Do you feel that there ' s just no way of going up the other side? ' Sietsema: Not if we have to acquire easements . Mady: Do you think if we allow the residents a month , 6 weeks to contact those residents to see what they can work out with them, that we might be Park and Recreation Commission Meeting 1 December 13 , 1988 - Page 48 better ahead if it doesn ' t cost us anything? Obviously we' re not going to be able to do anything with this until April anyway, actually putting it in . Sietsema : If you want to let bids so you can construct in April , you've got to move along with this . Unless you want to start construction later 11 in the year . Mady: If we can move the other side without costing any money and it' s just going to cost us a month, hopefully we won' t lose any kids between that. That ' s been the primary concern but recognizing their safety concerns . Maybe there' s an opportunity there that they can work on that we don ' t know. Sietsema : What is your feeling on that Scott? Scott Harri. : The issue regarding additional of how soon you apply for right-of-way acquisition. The trail will cost approximately the same amount of money irrespective of what side. Mady: What they' d like to do is talk to the neighbors and get a right-of-way there or get a dedication to us without costing the City. Sietsema : Okay, what I would recommend doing then is I will put this on the City Council agenda for the first meeting in February and that will give them a month and a half to come back to me with something that says we have people that are willing to give the easements and put it back on the residents shoulders to do that . Mady: That ' s only delaying this a month because the Council will not act on this until January anyway. Resident : Jim, just a comment on that . First of all , we appreciate your consideration on that but I think the key element for running it on the north side of the street is again , it ' s going to be up to the Safety Commission and the stop sign at Redwing Lane. That is the whole idea behind this from a neighborhood standpoint was to try and kill two birds with one stone. Slow the traffic down and get the trail in there. As far as Laura and I are concerned , if we can ' t have the stop signs , I don ' t think we want the kids crossing at Redwing either . Mady: Well , it might be an opportunity to talk to Dick Wing of the Public Safety Commission and possibly. . . , Resident : Yes , if we could get a recommendation from you that they definitely look into that . Otherwise, I think instead of waiting another II year or at least knowing that it would get done this summer , we ' d like to have that and run it on the south side. If we can ' t have the traffic control , than I think we' d rather stick with the south side all the way up to Nez Perce. Schroers : I have been in favor of this proposal from the beginning . I live on the north side of Carver Beach Road. As the trail was originally II 1 Park and Recreation Commission Meeting December 13 , 1988 - Page 49 II proposed , it would have gone across the front of my yard . I 'm in favor of that still . I would support if everyone is willing to grant the easement and I personally will . However , if that ' s not possible , if there ' s a problem, I would rather see the trail go in on the south side and run up to Nez Perce and cross over to the park at a new entrance rather than not have it at all . The whole issue of safety, as you said over and over again and I don ' t care where you put that trail , it ' s going to be safer than having them in the street. So I don' t want to lose the opportunity ' of getting that trail in . If it ' s not feasible and if it ' s going to create problems and it ' s going to jeopardize the trail by trying to get it in on the north side , than I want it on the south . ' Mady moved , Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to the City Council at their January meeting to approve the Laredo Drive trail as shown on the plans and specifications as presented ' tonight. Direct staff to work with the residents to investigate the other possibilities of the north side and come to us in our first meeting in January with their findings and that we will then make a recommendation on Carver Beach sidewalk plan to the City Council for their action in the first meeting in February. All voted in favor and the motion carried . Mady moved , Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission k. recommend that the Public Safety Commission review the traffic safety issues relating to Carver Beach Road . All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVE SITE PLAN FOR LAKE SUSAN PARK. Mady: My concerns are this is in the industrial park. G ballfields currently. Even though Lake Ann is expanding, have limited limited ballfields . If there ' s expanding , we' ll still have _r� s an opportunity to put another ballfield down here for the industrial people , then we need to investigate that . We all know there ' s a lot of space and I don ' t know, since they' re grading it anyway, I want to know. Mark Koegler : It ' s all very low wet area and the configuration of this pond has not been set yet. That will come as part of the . . . Lake Drive and the drainage study that ' s being done . There is even consideration of routing the creek through this pond for the purpose of water . . . for Lake Susan to allow for the retention of some of the solids and agricultural runoff that comes off that stream. I wouldn ' t want to lead you astray and be very optimistic that you have a chance to expand at all down into this area . That area is largely within the open space. What really remains as developable property, will only support one ball diamond . Now the change in property lines that occurred as a result of Rosemount coming i.n, which is on this plan which differs from what you ' ve seen before , does allow for I ( a full sized field in there. Right now I think it ' s 285 foot of diamond where before it was 250. Robinson : Where is Rosemount again? I - ktv,-..,,, r ‘0„.:t..., ,,..t,,,. : 3 `li- d= !fie! 'a:. .t, MEMORANDUM II TO : Lori Sietsema , Park and Recreation Coordinator FROM: Scott Harri • 1- a,.n4.. DATE : December 7 , 1988 11 SUBJ : Sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive , Improvement Project No . 88-21 VHS Job No. 88-316 Enclosed are 10 sets of plans for II p subject project along with copies of the construction details . The purpose of this memorandum is to provide a summary of the final design features . We understand the II plans will be presented to the Park and Recreation Commission at their December 13 , 1988 , meeting . We will be available to assist you with the presentation and discuss the final design . I Laredo Drive 1 . Five foot concrete sidewalk located along west side of Laredo I Drive from Chanhassen Elementary to Frontier Trail . 2 . Russian Olive tree branches hang across sidewalk . Some II selective trimming is necessary to provide adequate headroom. No removal is required . 3 . A 36 foot extension to a timber retaining wall at the Pat I Kerber residence is necessary. 4 . A catch basin inlet will be modified at Longview Circle to II allow a pedestrian curb ramp to be installed . 5 . Minor boulevard regrading is necessary at the residence II located in the N . W. corner of the Highland Drive intersection . 6 . Painted crosswalk striping is proposed at each cross street . I 7 . All areas disturbed by construction will be sodded . 8 . All improvements are proposed within available street right- of-way. II 3030 Harbor Lane North Bldg.11, Suite 104 Minneapolis, MN. 55447-2175 612/553-1950 1 ' Carver Beach Road 1 . Five foot concrete sidewalk located along the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers Boulevard (Co . Rd . 17 ) to a I point apposite the west end of the park . Narrow right-of-way , mailboxes , trees , hydrants and hedges were factors in shifting the entire sidewalk to the south side . ' 2 . Two cable TV boxes and one telephone box require relocation . 3 . Relocate approximately 50 feet of split rail fence at residence located in S . W. corner of Penamint Lane intersection . 4 . Relocate and install two ( 2 ) catch basins and rerade boulevard of residence located adjacent to the park . 5 . Construct an iron pipe handrail along the sidewalk adjoining the steep sloped area at the east end across from the park for safety purposes . 6 . Proposed lighted crosswalk at the park along with pedestrian crosswalk warning signs and pedestrian crosswalk signs . A 30 mph speed limit sign is proposed just west of the Nez Perce intersection . 7 . Painted crosswalks are proposed at each cross street II f intersection . 3 . All areas disturbed will be sodded . ' 9 . All improvements are proposed within available street right- of-way. I IC _ • " 1 1 C 1 i ROW 1 Var. Variable I (See Plan) 1/4' Per Ft , /110 5.1 O f 7..a.•:* -0; 4' Concrete Walk 4' Min. Agg. Base Cl. 5 C i 1 NOTES: 1 1 Provide 1/2' preformed joint filler material when adjacent to concrete curb & gutter or driveways. 2 1/2' expansion joints at 60' (approx.) intervals. 3 Contraction joints at approx. 5' spacing. 4 Refer to current MnDOT Standard Specifications and Standard Plate No. 7035,1 5 Thicken sidewalk to 6" at gravel drives. 1 CONCRETE SIDEWALK D-1 1 ' .. I Al li i I ICurb Radius I larftimmeileill IX3,0„ * 3 a. 4.o" I A--1 _ PLAN VIEW OF RAMP Isr.P.I. sM ISM F1' 1 CI slope (Max.) 3 , 1 , u 4 6"gry i 3 0 P.I. 4 O P. 3. 0• T �` l o�o�� I ELEVATION OF RAMP 4' O" 1 curb or Curt 111 _ ___ __ __ _ 1 •14 GYtlr ` ,�--•�--- �_ .- it. 4" Conc.Wolf 1 '. •• ••.• •.• •••� I SECTION A—A NOTE: Sawcut pavement for removals in areas of sidewalk ramp construction. ' ' Adjust this dimension to fit conditions at each location. II C PEDESTRIAN CURB RAMP D-2 I • I STREET a 2' (Typ.) i ic 2' (Typ.) ------ \ in Proposed Sidewalk ii. IIR APProposed Sidewalk PS'. Pedestrian Curb Ramp 1' if Required (Typ.) w w cc i- v) CROSSWALK STRIPING DETAIL Fa - iii iii ilia m iso i1• olo lilies lm mo — liiil• we m om = ow mum I . . t Curb and Gutter N. I8' Pav't. /O4 � Driveway � IPaved Alley •. :�• 4"Walk 0 4"Walks ®� 4"Walk :� ,�L I Contraction Joints © '� ligainiffi I1/4" R. 7 Private Walk Provide intermediate Joint at KEW 1/4"per ft. slope toward roadway squared end in sidewalk, when s �' 1 sidewalk Is adjacent to curb 2 ; . . _•. —1 and gutter. - E 700 ---€4' � CI IS, PLAN �� SECTION THRU WALK Ili I CONCRETE WALK 4'wank •• Ol 1/2" Preformed Joht Filler Material - �/� �, �,• AASHTO M213(Not required when curb I �� / i and gutter or walk are adjacent to V• &4 • / �� / / bituminous paving.) co\ r p2 1/2"Expansion Joints at 60'(approx.) I ��a .O 4 maximum intervals. 45° • ' ��' Entrance 8' Thickness across driveway. • 0 3• I60'`' _ Without sidewalk pave only to end of curb return{ . ° to 900 • � :�;,, ;- � :"':: �� when entrance is unsurfaced or construction is "r- '• ,���a�O not needed beyond this point.- y �' Q fo O With sidewalk pave to back edge of sidewalk. 3 s�OPe Paid for as concrete driveway pavement. Drive at Pavement ,._,.41/4" R. I y " Variable Sw f Length Varies 1/4 R. I ® 1/2" Expansion Joint A ' ' - -- Ell 7O Contraction Joint Wormed or Sawed) =� Note: I ® Driveway need not be poured monolithically No deduction to be made in Q S-1O%desiatiie, with curb and gutter. Curb and Gutter for Entrance. 151.wax. tiff, I ® See Std. Plate 7036 and plans for placement SECTION A-A of pedestrian curb ramp ENGINEER REFERENCE HALF PLAN PERSPECTIVE See Road Design Manual for geometric design Iof entrances. Where the maximum al:owable emanate gradient CONTRACTOR REFERENCE would be exceeded, due to the position of the t See plans for placement of walk and existing walk, the walk shall be Ieaovd:rwd diwensiorts for construction of driveways, replaced' or the paveroert warred Commingle CURBT the required entrance slope. IC APP ovEra Jan,_20,19 77 STATE OF MINNESOTA SPECIFICATION STANDARD ---- DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION REFERENCE PLATE `/ c iZZ-� CONCRETE WALK A 2301 M0' CURB RETURNS AT ENTRANCES 2521 70351 I �r.�tar 2531 Materials,Research and Standards D-4 o- 1• b' Sidewalk ( } 4' Pipe Railing Construct in accordance with current MnDOT St'd. Specs. and Standard Plate No. 6401S. Grout I 1/41 per Ft. ° it�1�: �� , Existing Foreelope Existing Pavement 4.• �• c; \ — SPECIAL SIDEWALK DETAIL CARVER BEACH ROAD STA. 12 + 50 TO STA. 14 + 15 cn , NM ! MN NM E • - - - — M - - MI NM N NM /^— NE M — MI EN MI EN MN NM E 1111111 w 1 • s y� A 4,. ` T _ . o §-,. v I.a. I At I I; r C r'-' 5'0"T teal Poet Sat en Alternate on down dads side 1.61 1/2"x 8"x 8"Plate--1. . ' 1 I I PLAN ELEVATION Corner Poet 01 N L 5'0"Maximum oi Line Post O2 If more than 200 change O O r_ in vertical alignment make 12" l l this post a corner post. Min. ao in IIII O- M v - —- End Post 0 � O O J I I 1 1/2 "d 9 holes for 3/4"die.bolo�I� 4 1/2' lon ,nuts&lockwashers I with concrete anchor. n m> I D m u u �I PLAN Z °° 1,o„ Concrete slab to be 6"thick in a ALTERNATE ti Z s z 1 ft.sq.area under all Rail Posts. L I I PIPE ANCHOR 0 rn z m ELEVATION NOTES: �p D •Structural steel fence posts as per Spec.3406 Dome Cap •Railing components may be color coated as D 11 Corner& End Pose gaffing 0 Line Port Tops Ground Line per fatal Fed.Spec.RR-F•191. r' _ 7"Rail Sleeve •Galvanize hardware as per Spec.3392. 4. e!- 1 •Shop drawings not required. s `e 7__/_1� a • P°rt •All bolts to be inserted from pedestrian side Heavy End /� No Line Clumps e 3 of railing. Clamps "' w o` ( 01 End and corner posts to be 2" nominal 3/8"Dia.x 1.1/4"1g. diameter standard pip. (3.65 lbs.per limit.) Set Post in Carriage Bolts with Nuts •. '. 0 Line posts to be 1-1/2"nominal diameter Post Seat sss�r �� `,V' Typ.Cal Line Posts ..II! standard pipe(2.72 lbs.per lin.ft.). and Caulk s�s� 1O� 0 QS 6 Al: 0 Top and bottom railing to be 1-1/4" • Post Scut Rail Ends `t nominal diameter standard pipe (2.27 N - r See Alternate ::il +i �_ to (Contractors Option) ` 0 a lbs.per lin.ft.). �o ir.� r,, _� •a, •°:°' •,...... '.°' °• • • ' 0 ••U• 40 2" nom. dla, std. pipit (3.65 lb/ft.) . _ ° •. .° •. line posts. 2.1/2" nom. dia. std pip. �� •° 3/8"Dia.x 1.1/4" . '411. I"i Tack Weld I 1g• •'•A'. •, (5.79 lb./ft.)-end and corner posts. • Carriage Bolts with Nuts e:, • • [10"I Da. OS Drill 3/8" du. hole thru post and post • CO M 3"Dia. :.: •.• Typ.Cal Corner&End Ports ••a • ..j_ anchor after assembly. Insert bolt or pin A -+ 16 Gage Steel Plate 0 GROUND in hole to hold assembly together. O to/ END OR CORNER POST LINE POST MOUNT 0 Concrete shall be air entrained 5.5%± and shall have a min. 28 day compressive T ..... CO o 0 ENLARGED ELEVATION ANCHOR strength of 3000 P.S.I. .... 1 I CURB INLET FRAME,GRATE,CURB bOX SHALL BE NEENAH R-3230-A �11=1= , MIN, 3MAX-2" THICK LO ■�� NC ADJUSTING RINGS ' ?4 IPE '5" 1ARIAPLE DIA Z SLOPE 2"PER F ® ' • . 1111111111111111/1 4-O MAX. S'- z� - 1 1 CATCH BASIN MANHOLE NOTE:ALUMIN'UM STEPS SHALL BE PROVIDED IN ALL CATCH BASINS AND STORM SEWER MANHOLE AS DETAILED IN STANDARD • MANHOLE DETAIL 1 D-7 1' PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 14, 1988 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7 : 30 p.m. . MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Sue Boyt, Larry Schroers , Carol Watson and Curt Robinson ' MEMBERS ABSENT: Mike Lynch and Ed Hasek STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator APPROVAL OF MINUTES : Watson moved , Schroers seconded to approve the ' Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated August 9, 1988 as presented . All voted in favor and the motion carried . PUBLIC HEARING: PROPOSED TRAIL CONSTRUCTION-CARVER BEACH ROAD. Public Present : Name Address ' Robin Nordby 6801 Redwing Laura Bros 6771 Chaparral Joy Jarnvek 6780 Redwing Lane ' Cathy Clem Paul Kreuter 1011 Carver Beach Road 1090 Carver Beach Road Dave & Leneda Rahe 1021 Carver Beach Road Sietsema: This item, as you may recall , the 1988 Capital p al Improvement Program, which is the park development fund includes funds to construct ' off street trails or sidewalks along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive . I 'm going to treat these two separately and L' ll go right to Carver Beach Road. The proposed trail along Carver Beach Road is approximately 1, 500 ' feet from Powers Blvd . to Carver Beach la round . The P yg purpose of the trail is to keep the pedestrians that move along that street safe as the street is getting more and more busy as developments go in in that area . You may recall that over a year ago we had a petition to put a trail along that street by the people in that neighborhood . That petition was one of the things that pre-empted our developing the whole trail plan. Because we have seen that that is an unsafe area for children to be walking along ' the street, we went ahead and put that into our Capital Improvement Program for the 1988 year . I ' ve gone out to the site with the City Engineer and we looked at both sides of the street to see which would be the best side of the street to put the trail on . Due to topography ' mostly, we thought that if we ' re going to put it completely on one side, that the north side would be the better side . There are fewer obstructions there and the topo is flatter. Since that time I ' ve talked Ito some people in the area and the people that live on the south side of Carver Beach Road would like it to be on their side of the street and possibly cross at an intersection closer to the park. We can ' t have the trail going right up to the park on the south side because there ' s some I 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting I September 14 , 1988 - Page 2 11 topo right across the street from the park that goes straight down. We would not be able to accomodate a trail . Because Carver Beach Road is the frontage road for many of the homes that are along that street , I 'm proposing that we put in a sidewalk rather than a bituminous trail because it looks nicer and it will add to the value of those homes rather than to il detract as some people would think that a bituminous may detract from a home. It looks better and I don ' t think that the cost is going to be that much higher although if it is, I can bring that back to you. So my recommendation would be to put in a concrete sidewalk which would be 5 II feet wide rather than the 6 foot bituminous. Some of the other things that we wanted to talk about before getting into discussion is the types of use that would be allowed on that trail and although we have a lot of work to do on an ordinance that ' s going to outline exactly what can be II done, on this type of a trail pets would be allowed but on a leash only and no motorized vehicles would be allowed on sidewalks . Unless somebody else has some other concerns, I think that pretty much covers the things that have come up so far . Therefore, it is staff ' s recommendation to construct a 5 foot concrete sidewalk to be constructed along Carver Beach Road and we can determine which side would be the best within the existing 40 foot right-of-way. Chairman Mady called the public hearing to order . Robin Nordby, 6801 Redwing Lane: My daughter is 7 years old and rides the II bus and I would really like to have her go use that park because it ' s the park that she ' s supposed to use . We proposed having a park in the neighborhood and that was voted down or we didn ' t get enough support for a small park in the neighborhood. They said to use the Carver Beach Park but she ' s forbidden to ride a bike on Carver Beach because of the traffic. It ' s just unreal . The cars just zoom through there and you practically have to dive in the ditch so I think I can say that everybody in the neighborhood is supporting this . Everybody is pushing for it heavily to have something so the kids can get over to the park and there ' s just tons of kids in the neighborhood. I think almost every house has small children in that age group. Laura Bros , 6771 Chaparral Lane : I was the originater of the petition to I get the trail made up to the park for a lot of the reasons that Robin just stated because it' s just very dangerous to walk on that road . It ' s very narrow and with the hills and we do have lots of problems with speeding . II We 've been in contact with the Public Safety Department and haven ' t gotten a whole lot of satisfaction from them either with controlling speed on that road so we definitely do not want our children on Carver Beach . One of the things that Lori brought up and you talked about it before was , instead of running it all the way up the north side, we' d like part of it on the south side because we' re feeding off of the neighborhood . The neighborhoods are off on the south side so we would rather have it go part of the way. The way I had set it up originally on the petition was to have it cross at Redwing Lane with the useage of stop signs . I felt that this would combat two problems with one stroke. By putting a stop sign in at Redwing at the base of the hill so the cars coming down over the hill have to stop anyway so that will control the speed on Carver Beach Road and provide the safe crossing for our children . Because of the lay of the 11 II 1 , Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 3 II (7 land , that pretty much needs to go up the north side . I agree with Lori. on ' that but I 'd like to see it from Powers Blvd. to Redwing Lane go on the south side and then cross over with a crosswalk and stop signs . Mady: One thing I 'd like to address , if possible, is if you have a ' comment on whether we should use concrete or bituminous blacktop, we 'd also like that brought up. ' Paul Kreuter , 1090 Carver Beach Road : As much as a trail on the north side of the road all the way to Powers would serve my family and I the most, I agree with the consensus so far simply because the number of children that live on the south side is so great and I think it would be a ' serious safety problem for trying to get the kids from the south side of Carver Beach over to the trail . Whatever will last is the best use as far as material goes . ' Laura Bros : I think we all support the sidewalk. I don ' t have a problem. I think a sidewalk would look better , much better than tar . Mady: The only concerns we would probably have would be cost and we can work on that. I Laura Bros : How about the stop sign issue? Is that going to be a problem? ' Mady: That ' s something we ' ll discuss . It ' s not something we have really a whole lot of say on but that will handled by the City Council . We can make a recommendation to them. Sietsema : If I could just make a comment . I did talk to Jim Chaffee about the request for the stop sign along Carver Beach Road and what he has indicated is that he can ' t move on anything until he gets the request ' in writing. I don ' t know if you ' ve got written to him what the request is , but he can ' t take the item to the Public Safety Commission until he has the request in writing . So that ' s your first step. We can make a ' recommendation that a crosswalk go at a certain spot where we ' re switching sides and we can recommend that the sidewalk go in at that point too. But whether there ' s a stop sign there is an engineering decision although Public Safety will recommend on it too. The other thing is that, with the ' crosswalk and the trail going in , we ' ll have a much greater chance of getting the stop sign. If you just put a stop sign up to slow traffic , MnDot will not let you . That ' s not the purpose of a stop sign to just simply slow traffic. You ' re supposed to use other things to do that but if there ' s a crosswalk there, it makes more sense . That would give a good reason why there should be a stop sign there. With the trail and the crosswalk, you might have a better chance of getting it . Laura Bros : Another point I wanted to make too was that the bus stop for or that area is right on Redwing and Carver Beach Road . The children stand If: on that corner for a bus stop so therefore, any children walking down, if they should from the other side of the street , a couple of them might go to another district but if they have to cross the street , they could cross and they could walk down the sidewalk, cross at the crosswalk at Carver Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 4 Beach and then stand at the bus stop. Boyt : We' re going to run into this again out on Minnewashta with the trail crossing sides of the street. I think stop signs are a good answer to that problem. Schroers : Currently there is a petition circulating in the neighborhood right now for a stop sign on Redwing anyway. There are several signatures on that petition . Robin Norby: Also , we' d like a safety sign that says Children Playing . Notifying that there is a park there so people that don' t know. Boyt moved, Robinson seconded to close the public hearing . All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. , Boyt : One of the things we haven ' t discussed is winter maintenance for the trails. That was something we need to discuss tonight. Mady: I 'd like to discuss winter maintenance once we get done with both items. Boyt : I think most of the people know who ' s going to pay for the trail . That the whole city pays for it and it ' s not assessed to each individual homeowner . There have been questions about that with Laredo . The City pays for it . Mady: To clarify that even further . The money that the Park and Recreation Commission and Park and Recreation Department spends for capital improvements and that ' s building totlot equipment , putting in ball diamonds, land acquisition , minor amounts of land , comes directly out of what is known as park dedication fees . Anytime a developer comes in and .' builds a home in the City of Chanhassen, they are assessed a fee of $425. 00 which goes directly into a park dedication fund . They have the option, if it ' s a large development, I guess it ' s at our discretion , requesting the land dedication instead of the dollars but it always works out to equal . Either it' s $425 . 00 for land or $425. 00 so that ' s the only money we use for building parks and building trails . That ' s where our money comes from. We do not receive any money out of the City' s operating budget for building park items which is trails and balifi.elds and totlot equipment. Boyt : I 'm in support of the sidewalk and I 'd like to see the concrete sidewalk switching sides of the road with stop signs . Watson : . . .because it doesn ' t really make any difference in the City here specifically. If they want it on the south and going to the north and they want a stop sign. Robinson: I agree. Schroers : I agree . , 1 - Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 5 47 Mady: We ' re all in agreement . We don ' t have a whole lot of discussion on it. We ' re all in pretty much agreement that the trail needs to be placed on the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers to Redwing , have a crosswalk installed and then the trail continue onto the park on the north side of Carver Beach Road . I would guess they' re going to make a recommendation to the Public Safety Commission that we use a stop sign situation be installed at that location . I think a motion ' s in order . Boyt: So moved . Watson : Second . Mady: Just for the benefit of the public , the motion on the floor is to build a trail along . . . ' Boyt : A 5 foot concrete sidewalk constructed along the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers Blvd . to Redwing , a crosswalk and then the ' sidewalk would continue on the north side to the park with stop signs . Paul Kreuter : Could you add , with appropriate safety signs . Mady: In addition to the Public Safety Commission to install those . Boyt: Have you gone to the Public Safety Commission with this? Laura Bros : We just started a petition for the south side for safety signs . ' Watson : I think it ' s well that the trail crossing and our engineer can . . . especially the bus stop and the whole thing . . . . should make a real good case for putting a stop sign there . Boyt moved, Watson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission ' recommend to install a 5 foot concrete sidewalk along the south side of Carver Beach Road from Powers Blvd. to Redwing Lane, a crosswalk and then continue the sidewalk on the north side of Carver Beach Road to Carver Beach Playground and to have safety crossing signs and stop signs . All ' voted in favor and the motion carried . Mady: The motion now goes to the City Council with our recommendation and ' they' ll decide whether or not it will be built . Sietsema : Actually, what will happen is that on the 26th I will hand this ' recommendation over to the Engineer . It ' s been approved by the City Council because it was approved in our budget so they will authorize preparation of plans and specs on the 26th. Those plans and specs will come back and they' ll have to approve those and authorize advertisement of bids. We ' ll have to advertise for bids for 21 days . They' ll come back in November to accept the bid . It probably will not be , depending on what kind of winter it is , if they can still do construction, they will start it . Otherwise , it will be the first thing on the agenda next spring . Park and Rec Commission Meeting I September 14 , 1988 - Page 6 PUBLIC HEARING: PROPOSED TRAIL CONSTRUCTION LAREDO DRIVE. Public Present: , Name Address Sarah Unger 7406 Laredo Drive Pat & Mona Kerber 7489 Saratoga Circle Sunil Chojar 7480 Long View Circle Richard Konerza 7461 Long View Circle Bruce Gamun 7405 Laredo Drive Earl H. Mertz 7510 Laredo Drive Greg Eidam 501 Laredo Lane Tom Kottke 518 Laredo Lane Kathy Hagedorn 516 Laredo Lane Ken Groen 7329 Frontier Trail Charles Littfin 7609 Laredo Drive Barb Edeskuty 406 Cimarron Circle Leah Lucas 410 Cimarron David & Trudy Schranck 506 Laredo Drive Larry Beck 7401 Laredo Drive Mary Lucas 410 Cimarron Circle Linda Mady 7338 Frontier Trail C Si.etsema : The proposed sidewalk, trail along Laredo Drive is roughly 2 , 500 feet from Frontier Trail to the Chanhassen Elementary. The reason it doesn ' t go , we ' re not proposing it to go all the way to West 78th Street is because it ' s already in place to the Fire Station and HRA with the redevelopment , part of downtown redevelopment will be putting it in along the school and hooking into the trails that up by the school that were just recently installed . The purpose of this trail is again to move people along Laredo Drive in a safe manner . The trails will be for pedestrians . For bicycles but not motorized vehicles . Staff is proposing that we put in a 5 foot concrete sidewalk rather than the bituminous for the same reasons as we had for the Carver Beach Road . The existing right- of-way does allow for that type of construction . Again, City Engineer Gary Warren and I went out to the site and looked at it and felt that the west side of Laredo Drive would be the appropriate side to have the trail on because we already have a section in place there and the topography and obstructions were less on that side as well . Again, this is not an assessed project . This is an already funded project that comes out of already budgeted money. Therefore, it is my recommendation that a 5 foot concrete sidewalk be constructed along the west side of Laredo Drive within the existing 60 foot right-of-way. Mady: To clarify right-of-way questions , Laredo has a 60 foot road ' right-of-way and the street right now is 25 so we have approximately 16 feet on both sides of the street there. I think at this time we ' ll call < the public hearing to order on Laredo Drive trail and we ' ll handle this basically the same as we handled the previous one . 1 1 Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 7 Sarah Unger , 7406 Laredo : I live right on the curve of Laredo . I see 100 people use that road walking and riding and doing all that . I 'm amazed that nobody' s been hurt because that curve is so , you know the peitions . . . so I 'm in support of the trail . I 'm also in support that it ' s a 5 foot cement whatever just because it will tie in the main residential ' neighborhood with the City and I think it is real important to the value of our homes as well as tying into the city. So I think it ' s real important. . . ' Leah Lucas : I live on Laredo and Cimarron Circle. I would be in support of a trail because all those children are required to walk to school and they walk in the road . It ' s dangerous for the children and it ' s hazardous ' for the driver to have kids walking the streets . In the winter it ' s even worst because the snow is banked up on each side. The kids are walking on the banks, slipping in the road . I think we need the trail . 1 Boyt : You like the sidewalk on the west side? ' Leah Lucas: The west side is appropriate because . . . Barb Edeskuty, 406 Cimarron Circle : I 'm also in favor of the sidewalk going on the west side. We ' ve all got kids that have to walk to school and I don ' t feel the road is a safe place to walk. Again , especially in the winter time and the sidewalk as opposed to the tar trail dust because L of the looks . It would be nice to blend into the city. ' Bruce Gamun: I 'm a 16 year resident of 7405 Laredo Drive. I have no objections whatsoever to the sidewalk preferably being concrete . I just have some questions . I understand it ' s funded . I do have the questions of how that will be maintained because concrete obviously will stand up better than the asphalt. The second question would be, what do you do with the snow on it in the wintertime and who ' s responsible for it and how ' can you use it in the wintertime? I think you said you ' re going to address that in a vote but I would think they' d want to know, like Carver Beach people, they didn ' t comment and I certainly would like to know how ' we ' re going to maintain it because if the property owners maybe today if it were there, the City would take care of it. Maybe tomorrow the homeowner would have to take care of it. It wouldn ' t affect me on my side, it would still be a concern of mine and my neighbors I 'm sure, it ' s a question that should be addressed . Larry Beck, 7402 Laredo Drive: I 'm definitely in favor of the sidewalk. ' Not the asphalt but the concrete . I guess the biggest question I had was I ' ve got about 250 foot of frontage so I 'm concerned about the maintenance in the winter . I know I 'm not going to be able to take care of that snow ' so that ' s a real concern of mine . Otherwise I think it ' s fine . Dick Konerza, Long View Circle and Laredo: My question is , what will be the responsibility of the homeowner , financially, upkeep and all of that I( from now until after it ' s not being used? Before I favor anything , I 'd like to know what is our responsibility to that walkway? i Park and Rec Commission Meeting ' September 14 , 1988 - Page 8 Earl Mertz , 7510 Laredo Drive : I 'm in favor of the concrete bit . I just wonder who how far is it from the roadway? I 'm concerned about my front yard getting hacked up and some trees that are probably in the way and how far would this be in from the present road? Are we leaving a boulevard here are we or several feet in the sidewalk and then the rest of my yard? I 'm concerned about how it hack up my property. ' Mady: We ' ll discuss that with the Commission presentation . You ' ll have an opportunity at that time, if you don ' t get the response you ' re looking II for , to ask another question . Mona Kerber : My name is Mona Kerber and my husband Patrick Kerber . My husband was up here and has gotten complete information. I don ' t know if II we oppose or I 'm in favor of it. Our question is also the maintenance of it. Who' s responsible because our driveway goes out into Saratoga Circle. We do not use the Laredo frontage and we also have a hill that has been landscaped. My husband came to the Village and got complete permission to landscape it . Put the timbers in. What are you going to do with the hill and the circle there? The curve around it, I agree it ' s a very hazardous corner but what are you going to do with our hill? Who ' s going to , are you going to take it out? Are you going to put it back? Are you going to landscape it and John Mertz lives next door to us , they did not get a letter in regards to this. We spoke with him tonight and I 'm speaking on his behalf also . Part of the hill where we have the disconnecting with the timbers is part of his property now which means you ' re going to be hacking that off . We ' d like to know how much we' re going to lose of our hill? How much is he going to lose? Who ' s going to maintain it? Who ' s going to pick the garbage up? Right now we clean the garbage on Laredo . We pick up pop cans , school papers , everything on this street now and we have a walkway down there? Is the Village going to maintain that? The walkway is not that well maintained. We maintain it. Another question is , you' re going to plow snow there . Where is the snow going to go when we have this large bank? Are we going to have to shovel the snow up on top of our hill or what do you do with it? We have a problem already down there with the snow on the corner. If it would be, we ' re in favor of the cement . We agree with the safety part of it but we also are concerned about our property and what are you going to do with our land and our lot? How far back are you going to go? Resident: Let me make one more comment and then I 'm really done. What I 'm hearing is that the biggest concern is maintenance . I personally don' t have a problem with maintaining the sidewalk but that ' s because I have a small frontage. I might make a suggestion that the City ' s going to have to maintain the sidewalks within the City which extends down to the Fire Department and the school so the cost of maintaining the rest of the sidewalk down Laredo should be that much and since the use is really going to be for the public school and the children , that maybe you could , you know. . . Pat Kerber , 7489 Saratoga Circle: The sidewalk is fine but I think we should have got together first was where it was going to be. How much room it was going to take up. Who ' s going to maintain it and this before we get involved with do we want it or not . That seems to be everybody' s , IF Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 9 concern . Thank you . Sunil Chojar , 7480 Long View Circle : I have basically the same concern as before we started this debate. The lady mentioned that we don ' t have room on the east side of the road to put a sidewalk and it seems . . . ' (There was a break in the tape at this point in the meeting . ) Mady: . . .other trails such as the Pond Park trail that ' s adjacent to Kerber ' s property, there ' s not a lot of reason to plow that in the winter possibly and maybe we want to use some of those trails that we ' re proposing as cross country ski trails, things like that so not all of them ' are probably going to be plowed during the winter . We ' ll decide on a one to one basis. I think we need to review each trail that comes in. It ' s been our intention all along that once we have a trail system started , ' that we will acquire a Cushman type of vehicle and have a park maintenance person traveling the trail system to pick up, sweep up the loose sand , glass and large trash that exists in there but it ' s still going to be the homeowner ' s responsibly to pick up the p few pieces of paper that fly into their yard. I don ' t anticipate the City having someone driving that trail everyday to pick that stuff up . I think there ' s concern on how wide the boulevard ' s going to be. If we put the trail right next to the street or we put it the full 16 feet away from the street . I don ' t believe we ' re going to put it adjacent to the street unless we absolutely have no other choice . If there is a fire hydrant or a large tree and telephone boxes in ' the way and we have to go next to the street, we will but we want to keep it away from the street . That doesn ' t mean we have to take the whole 16 feet either . I belive a 3 to 4 foot cushion is reasonable. It keeps the kids and the street traffic separate . It also allows for some piling of ' snow in small snow storms . Now obviously, usually in the winter we have a lot of snow here so there are going to be winters or probably just about every winter where we ' re going to have to get a front end loader or a ' large snow blower up there to pull that snow away from the hills i.f we don ' t have anyplace else to push it. What I 'm hearing from the Park and Rec Commission is that that ' s what we want to see done . We do have park maintenance people on staff and I think that' s what their function should be in the winter . First on these trails and then to help out with the street maintenance crew with the rest of the streets after that and then finally the ice rinks . I believe someone raised the question about ' financial responsibility. I think that might also come into play with the liability. Who ' s responsible for things on the streets? I don ' t have an answer to that but there is a case law on that . The City would not have ' any way of changi.ng . . .exist with sidewalk liability. If there ' s a person that ' s injured on a sidewalk, and I know there ' s case law on that on what happens . I don ' t have an answer to that , sorry. Resident: What about if it ' s in your right-of-way and not on our property? Mady: I don ' t know that . That ' s something that I would at least ask and get a clarification from our Attorney Roger Knutson when it goes to the Council . . Park and Rec Commission Meeting I September 14 , 1988 - Page 10 r a II Sietsema : I talked to Roger about this in the past and his opinion is that, if someone gets hurt on the sidewalk, they can sue anybody. They II can sue you, if it ' s in your yard or they can sue the City or they could sue both but generally the courts have been going , unless you have left something out there dangerous or there was something very neglectful , they have been going in favor of that you walk the trails at your own risk. You talk some of the responsibility for being out and about , being able to walk upon yourself and that ' s generally what the courts have gone with so he doesn ' t see that as a big liability problem for either the City or the II people who are going to have the trails in front of their house. Mona Kerber : I have a question on that liability. Little kids like to walk on the retaining wall up there. What happens if those kids are II walking the retaining wall , fall and hit their heads on the sidewalk? Are we responsible for those kids? Mady: It ' s the same type of situation of just walking the sidewalk. II Unless your retaining wall was in any way unsafe , grossly did it show that you were negligent for some reason , that child is still operating under II their own discretion and you can ' t prevent someone, unless you ' re out there beating them every time they come near so , if you get to . . .make sure your property is as safe as it can be but not to . . . Each individual still has to act in a safe way and unless they can show that you were negligent , you really don' t have any financial responsibility I don' t see. Mona Kerber : The reason why, I was dust going to give you an example . We had creosoled our wall to keep it . The children at the bus stop were told , don ' t sit on the wall and don ' t play on the wall . It ' s been creosoled. One mother called me at night and demanded that we pay for her child ' s brand new pair of pants because she sat on our wall . We did not ask her so now wouldn' t she be a little hasty if her kid falls off your wall and hits their head on the sidewalk? . . . I told her to keep her kid off from our property. ., Mady: It ' s the same situation when they come and you ' re painting your house, either that or whatever , you can do everything you want and you II still can ' t prevent kids from doing some things . We' ll try to be reasonable. Resident : Has the Council already approved this? I Mady: The Council approved our budget and this is a portion of our budget . However , the Council still has to review the plans and I specifications and approve the bid letting process . Once the bids are let , they have to review the bids and approve the whole bid . Resident: Something just occurred to me, on the S kind of curve on II Laredo , it ' s a speedway right now. If you put sidewalks , kids do not walk on sidewalks . I didn ' t when I was a kid. You probably didn' t when t you were a kid . Drivers are going to think they' re on the sidewalk and II� it ' s going to be even worse in all probability as a traffic pattern . They' re not going to expect kids and kids on bicycles especially hate to ride on sidewalks . That should be addressed and taken into consideration II II 1 - ' Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 11 because it ' s bad right now. I think that might just make it worse . Mady: I can see where you ' re coming from, I have a real problem with that. We can ' t control 100% of the kids but if we do nothing on that road , we ' re as much as offering a couple of child ' s life up right now. ' It ' s a very dangerous street . It has been for a lot of years . We have an opportunity to change that right now. That ' s why the Commission has been looking at this item. ' Resident : That was one of the things that ' s been ignored . I 've got no objection to it. My kids are all raised . They were all raised on this street. Of course , it wasn ' t quite as busy but it ' s always been a raceway. Resident : Again , that ' s another one of the problems we have in the City. ' It ' s been addressed recently in the paper that we do have some areas of the City, and it' s not just Carver Beach Road and Laredo where there is a lot of fast traffic. I know the Public Safety Commission is looking at ' that trying to find a solution . The obvious solution is radar detection and speeding tickets but the cops can ' t be in one spot all the time. Hopefully, they' re going to find a solution to that . By getting as many kids as we can off the road , we ' re lessening the opportunity for a child to be hit and that ' s what we ' re trying to do is get as many kids off the street as we can. Any other comments? I think we handled all your =� questions . I don ' t see one here that was asked that we haven ' t discussed . 11 A motion would be in order . Schroers : I will move that we accept staff ' s recommendation to construct a 5 foot concrete sidewalk along Laredo Drive within the existing right-of-way to accomodate the needs of the residents on the west side of Laredo. ' Boyt : Second . Schroers moved , Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to construct a 5 foot concrete sidewalk along Laredo Drive within the existing right-of-way to accomodate the needs of the residents on the west side of Laredo. All voted in favor and the motion carried . Mady: We still need to make a motion concerning snow removal . We need to ' handle that motion to the Council . I ' ll move that the City be responsible for removal of snow on the Laredo and Carver Beach trails and that it be done in a timely fashion so the kids do have a method of getting to school in the morning without traveling in the streets . Boyt: Second . IFRobinson : Is that just on Laredo and Carver? Watson: Do we have other trails that maybe should? Park and Rec Commission Meeting I September 14 , 1988 - Page 12 C I Robinson : Yes , there ' s a stretch between Great Plains Blvd . and West 78th Street. Great Plains and Erie Avenue. I walk it every morning . The City plows it with some type of a front end loader I believe . Not right away but that ' s another stretch that I 'd like to see included in that. That ' s about the only one I can think of . Boyt : We have a new trail on Kerber Blvd . that ' s directing children . II Sietsema: Let' s just do it on all trails . II Watson : Yes , I think we' d better stick to all trails otherwise we are going to leave something out. Boyt : We can always exempt one later . I Mady: Okay, I 'd like to amend my motion to recommend to City Council to II direct City Staff to plow all existing trails as early as possible in the morning and that we handle exceptions to that on an exception basis . We will be making motions in the future on exceptions to that rule . II Schroers : Just as a point of interest, I think that we want to recognize that the City, the street department ' s first obligation naturally is going to be to get the streets cleared and I have to believe that the trails are going to be secondary so I don ' t think it ' s reasonable to look out your window first thing after a snow and expect the sidewalk to be cleaned . It may take a while before they get to it but they will get to it . I Boyt: I think we need to put paved trails so we don' t do Chan Pond Park . Mady moved , Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission II recommend that the City be responsible for the snow removal on all paved city trails as soon as possible in the morning and the Park and Recreation .' Commission will handle exceptions at a later date. All voted in favor and the motion carried . Boyt : I have another trail related item. We talked about pets being on II the trails and at one point we talked about recommending a pooper scooper ordinance and I 'd like some discussion on that . II Resident: I think we can be expected to pick up pop cans and paper but not other . . . I Sietsema : We did discuss that at one meeting and I do have an ordinance that ' s being worked on right now and that will be coming back to you . IMady: We did discuss at an earlier meeting an ordinance concerning pets in the city parks and the trailway system is a city park system. Right now the way the ordinance reads right now, what ' s on the books , pets are II just simply not allowed in the city parks . That would prevent anyone from walking their dog on the city trail . Because of that , which doesn ' t make sense in my opinion. You ' ve got to walk your dog someplace. We have made II II ' Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 14 , 1988 - Page 13 a recommendation to the Council that the ordinance be redrafted to allow pets to be allowed on the trail system as long as they' re restrained by a ' leash of the required leash length, whatever that is by ordinance and that they do have on their person the proper receptacle for picking up the droppings of their pet . That item has gone to Council . I don ' t believe ' they have acted on it yet . Resident : If you get that through, I ' ll give you a medal . ' Mady: I hope we answered all your concerns. I really appreciate the turnout tonight . When it goes to Council , I ask that you attend the Council meeting because it' s important to show up and give your support ' again . It ' s very important for the safety of our children but also for the safety of everyone else. Chanhassen is a very mobile community in that our residents do a lot of walking . There are a lot of runners . A ' lot of walkers on the trail system. Boyt : The trail on Kerber Blvd . was put in last week and there are people ' out there . REQUEST TO WAIVE TRAIL DEDICATION FEES , GARY BROWN. Mady: Do you have anything to add to your staff report? Sietsema : No . Basically what I ' ve written here is that a trail fee ' applies to the total acreage of a commercial development and therefore, we don ' t break it down to building permit like we do on a subdivision . When a building permit came in, even though the development is already started , I charged the total trail dedication fee which was $1 , 165 . 00 I believe . Mr . Brown didn ' t feel that that was fair . That he had to pay for this development when he had already started . 1 Mady: Did you talk to Roger on this? Sietsema: Yes . Everything I ' ve said in the memo was a reflection of what Roger had told me . Watson : We ' ve done this before and we have to be very careful about ' setting precedence without thinking . We don ' t split it out by the number of buildings on a site . It doesn ' t have anything to do with that . That could come to the point of saving their own . . . Sietsema : What we have done in the past and what we did do for Gary Brown, for this very development is , he had originally had , I think it was like a 14 acre parcel of which he was only developing 3 acres . He didn ' t feel that he should have to pay for the park dedication fees for the total 14 so we broke it down , looked at the entire piece . What are you grading? What part are you developing and that turned out to be 3 some acres and we postponed the payment of the fees for the rest of it until he ' develops the rest of it. So we did phase his park dedication fees but the trail dedication fees are what is outstanding . ..1 CITYOF ■ \ , C NEASSEN i 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM UM TO: Park and Recreation Commission 1 FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator DATE: September 7 , 1988 SUBJ: Proposed Trail/Sidewalk along Carver Beach Road 1 The 1988 CIP includes funds to construct off-street trails ( sidewalks) along Carver Beach Road and Laredo Drive. This is roughly 4000 feet of trail which will serve to move people safely to parks, school, downtown, etc. , along two busy streets . The Commission has conducted a long study of the trail issue. As walking and jogging/running are the top participant exercises , trails/sidewalks are becomming increasingly more important in our community. These trail segments were included in the 1988 CIP due to the concern for safety of children and adults who move about our community on foot or bike. In discussing these two items, the Commission must determine the following issues: - Which side of the street the sidewalk should appear; - Which surface material is most appropriate; concrete or bituminous; and - Types of use allowed. 1 1 � 1 1 AM Park and Recreation Commission September 8 , 1988 Page 2 CARVER BEACH ROAD The proposed trail/sidewalk along Carver Beach Road is approxi- mately 1500 feet from Powers Boulevard to Carver Beach Playground. The purpose of the trail is to keep pedestrians safe along a busy street where traffic picks up speed. Upon reviewing the site with City Engineer, Gary Warren, it was found that the existing right-of-way is 40 feet wide, of which ' 24 feet is paved roadway. That leaves 8 feet on each side, enough room to construct a sidewalk according to Mr. Warren. Due to topography, sight lines , utilities , and other obstructions , it was determined that the north side would be best suited for the sidewalk. Staff also felt that crosswalks should be placed so as to more easily allow pedestrians to cross Carver ' Beach Road more safely. As trail construction can occur within the existing right-of-way, no additional right-of-way is needed. Carver Beach Road is the frontage for most of the homes along that I C street and therefore a 5 foot concrete sidewalk would be the appropriate surface material. Had the trail been placed along side or rear yards , the bituminous surface would have been recom- mended. Types of uses to be allowed along trails continues to be a concern ' for many people. As motorized vehicles , i .e. motor bikes , three wheelers , etc. , would be conflictive with pedestrian use, such should be prohibited. Pets should be allowed along trails/ sidewalks , but only on leashes . It is suggested that as many ' types of non-conflicting uses be allowed as possible to get the best use from the trail system. These types of policy statements will be outlined in the City Code, however, staff felt that for ' the public' s benefit, such should be discussed. Recommendation It is the recommendation of this office that a 5 foot concrete sidewalk be constructed along the north side of Carver Beach Road within the existing 40 ft. right-of-way. 1 3b Park and Recreation Commission September 8 , 1988 Page 3 ' LAREDO DRIVE The proposed trail/sidewalk along Laredo Drive is roughly 2500 feet, from Frontier Trail to the Chanhassen Elementary. The sec- tion from Chanhassen Elementary to West 78th Street is being built by the HRA as a part of the downtown redevelopment project. The purpose of the trail is to safely move the children within walking and biking distance to the school . Laredo Drive is increasingly becoming a busy through street, no longer an area that can safely be shared by traffic and pedestrians . Laredo Drive has a 60 foot right-of-way, of which 28 feet is ' street pavement. This leaves 16 feet on each side of the street, plenty of room for sidewalk construction. City Engineer, Gary Warren, has indicated that due to topography and physical obstructions, the west side of the street would be the best location for the sidewalk. Additionally, the trail from West 78th Street to the elementary school is located on the west side, which should be continued if possible. Laredo Drive is the frontage for most of the homes along that street and therefore a 5 foot concrete sidewalk would be the appropriate surface material. Had the trail been placed along side or rear yards , the bituminous surface would have been recom- mended. Types of uses to be allowed along trails continues to be a concern for many people. As motorized vehicles, i .e. motor bikes , three wheelers , etc. , would be conflictive with pedestrian use, such should be prohibited. Pets should be allowed along trails/ sidewalks, but only on leashes . It would be suggested that as many types of non-conflicting uses be allowed as possible to get the best use from the trail system. These types of policy state- ments will be outlined in the City Code, however, staff felt that for the public' s benefit, such should be discussed. Recommendation It is the recommendation of this office that a 5 foot concrete sidewalk be constructed along the west side of Laredo Drive within the existing 60 foot right-of-way.