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CC Minutes 1996 08 19PROPOSED HIGHWAY 212 TOLL ROAD MEETING AUGUST 19, 1996 A special meeting of the Chanhassen City Council was called to order at 7:00 p.m. at the Chanhassen Recreation Center to discuss the proposed Highway 212 Toll Road. Mayor Chmiel introduced the following people: Mayor Chmiel stated that Chanhassen residents would be allowed to speak first and that if time allowed residents from other communities may then speak. Individuals would be allotted 3-5 minutes to speak and those speaking on behalf of a group would be allowed to speak for 5-8 minutes. Mayor Chmiel asked for resident comments: Thomas Herrmann, 8661 Chanhassen Hills Drive North: Stated that he has been a resident of Chanhassen for 8 years, that it is the state's job to finance trunk highways, that this toll road would set a precedent for the future road network in the metro area, that the legislature would give up its obligation to plan for the location of roads (this debate should occur in the legislature). If the legislature won't increase taxes, then maybe toll roads are the answer, but the legislature should decide when and shouldn't make us the guinea pigs. Representative Tom Workman, 181 South Shore Drive: Stated that the legislature created enabling legislation and that he's only .7% of the legislature. He grew up along Highway 212 and has been going to meetings about it for 8-10 years. The legislature would need to increase the gas tax by 40-50 cents per gallon to build a large project like this and that just won't happen. Money won't be there for new highways. He stated that he isn't in favor of tolls, but this road won't be built without it. Ginny Harris, 752 Buckingwood Court: She stated that she does not live close to the TH 212 corridor, but that she is opposed to the road with or without the toll. The road might relieve congestion on 212, but will cause rapid development of Norwood/Young America and cause pressure on rural roads, farm land, and schools. The Shakopee bypass will also cause major development pressure and may reduce the need for 212. Elasky: Questioned the ability of getting federal/Metropolitan Council approval of 212. Tim Klabunde, 8509 Chanhassen Hills Drive South: Feels that in a state with high taxes, high gas prices, and high car registration fees that the legislature should learn to spend our money better. Doesn't want the natural surroundings disturbed, is concerned about property values, and wonders if there will be more toll roads. He further stated that he is tired of the propaganda, that 212 isn't perfect, but that we don't need tolls. This will open the door for more toll roads. Kyle Tidstrom, 8679 Chanhassen Hills Drive North: All neighbors have known about the highway, but not that it would be a toll road and have a toll plaza with acceleration/deceleration Chanhassen City Council Minutes August 19, 1996 Page 2 lanes. Feels bad that there is so much pressure on the city council and feels that it should have been placed on the ballot. Jim Curry: Has owned property in Chanhassen for 27 years. The need for this road has been known for 50 years. Has 80 acres left (intersection of 212 and 101). He had the property sold in 1986, but the buyer backed out. The city asked that he not plat the intersection and he didn't. Highway 5 and other roads are near gridlock and unsafe. We have a shot at getting the road built and the risk is with the bond holders. The state already owns most of the road right-of-way. Property values won't keep pace if the roads are lousy. Urges the council to approve the toll road. Bob Smithburg, 8657 Chanhassen Hills Drive North: Mr. Smithburg is the coordinator of the opposition to Highway 212. He stated that the opposition to the toll road continues to grow. He stated that until a feasibility study is done that the full impact of the road will not be known. Objections to the toll road include: a toll is a tax, it will drain community resources, roads should be available to all, it will divide the community, and it will cause pollution problems. Urges the council to veto the toll road. John Lund: Urged the council to veto the toll road and asked Mayor Chmiel to abstain from the vote due to a conflict of interest. Mark Winslow, 1121 Lake Susan Drive: without fixing TH 5 and old Highway 212. roads. Stated it would be a mistake to build new roads The toll charge will force continued use of the old Amy Peters: Asked if the city can handle the extra infrastructure, why MnDOT isn't building 4 lanes first, and why not upgrade TH 5 or 212 instead. John Fiedler, 8521 Tigua Lane: Feels money is available for the road and wonders why it can't be allocated so it can be a free road. There has been a fundamental change in the funding (just like gambling). Urges that the council not be the people to vote it in. It will affect property values. Hope Smith, 1421 Mallard Court: Favors construction of proposed 212. Looks forward to her husband having a shorter commute, feels that property values will increase anyway and not go down, lives one-quarter mile away. She also wondered what the speed limit would be on the road. Allen Johnson, 700 Lake Susan Hills Drive: Doesn't feel we should be required to pay for the road. Why aren't other states paying for our road? Where does state gas tax money go if it doesn't go for roads? Feels the state has money for other jobs, why not ours? What will the Chanhassen City Council Minutes August 19, 1996 Page 3 benefits be to the city? There are already major delays on 494 at Highway 5--this will just add to it. What is the future for toll roads? Amy Dvorak, 8003 Dakota Avenue: Stated that the road is not in her back yard, but that she is still opposed to it. The road will add congestion to TH 5. Many areas have bad traffic and toll roads have not been the answer. The maintenance on the road itself will make it more costly. Urged the council to veto the road. Greg Wilson, 8662 Chanhassen Hills Drive North: Asked the council to base their decision on what the people say or else people should remember this when they vote. William Hoover, 1000 Lake Susan Hills Drive: Feels that the road will come anyway, but is opposed to the toll. The legislature should return the excise tax and be lobbied for more money. Ray Schenk, 1021 Lake Susan Drive: Asked questions about the cost of construction and the cost of one interchange. Previous information stated that it cost $21 million per interchange. Asked if the city considered collateral affects, e.g. turnback of TH 101 and old TH 212 and he wondered if the city/county will be required to pay for those. Don Ashworth responded that Hennepin County will take over Highway 101 north of Highway 5 and Carver County will take over south of Highway 5. The state will pay for the upgrade. Mr. Schenk further stated that the new road will bring additional growth and he noted that Bluff Creek Elementary is already at capacity. It would be an additional burden to build more schools. Brad Johnson, 7425 Frontier Trail: Supports the construction of the toll road for safety reasons. There are already 45,000 trips per day on Highway 5 at Market Boulevard. Construction of the road will force an upgrade at 494/5, relieve congestion from Pioneer Trail, increase industry, and there will be no additional tax to non-users. We have tried hard for years to lobby the state and federal agencies to build the road. Without 212, the other routes will get worse, almost grid locked. As inferior roads continue to get worse, fixing them will cost the local taxpayers. The school district conducted a study that revealed the primary affect of the toll road will be to generate more industrial value. If a toll is the only way this road will get built, then it should be done. Don Chmiel read letters from Tim Erhart and Clark Horn who are both in favor of the toll road. Ursula Dimler, 7203 Kiowa Circle, Carver County Commissioner: Stated that no county funds are available for upgrading TH 212 and 101. If 101 is turned back, the county will need to increase taxes or let it deteriorate. She did a survey in February and found 84% were against construction of the toll road and 16% were in favor. Chanhassen City Council Minutes August 19, 1996 Page 4 Marcia Eland, 8657 Chanhassen Hills Drive North: Asked how 212 can be expanded if no funds are available to maintain it. She stated that the opponents are not NIMBY' s, but people who care about pollution, neighborhoods, property values, and take pride in their backyards. She stated that the toll road should not be another tax and that it would favor the rich. She noted that the map shows that most of the Chanhassen population lives north of the toll road, so few Chanhassen drivers will benefit; that future local roads will either be cut off or require bridges. She stated that the mayor appears to have a conflict of interest and that he cannot further associate himself with the toll road without hurting the city. Mark Klein, West Farm Road: He agrees with local control. Suggested widening Highway 5 instead. He stated that people moved out here to enjoy a rural environment. 494 is very crowded and this will only add to it. Michael Rush: Not permitted to speak because he was not a Chanhassen resident. Kevin Marrinen, 10380 Heidi Lane: Believes that they should fix old roads instead of building a new one. The state should use the $70 million to fix the roads. The Council should honestly consider what Chanhassen needs. If the city doesn't want the road, we shouldn't build it. Lance Black, 8620 Chanhassen Hills Drive North: Cities must look for alternatives to fund roads. What other alternatives have been considered. Who will pay maintenance? What is the toll amount? How will the city benefit? Gordon Schulz, 1100 Lyman Court: Feels there should be a referendum on this issue. Chicago tollways are grid locked 7 days a week. Albert Dorweiler, 1565 Bluff Creek Drive: The new road will put pressure on side roads, break up wetlands and farm lands. Toll roads are about money. Why are Oliver, etc. on the board? They are not representing the people. Jim Douglas, 8650 Chanhassen Hills Drive North: He stated he knew about the proposed road when he bought his home. Feels it is a 1960's solution to a 2010 problem. The road won't benefit metro area people, should use LRT instead. Richard Turpen, 512 Del Rio Drive: Does the new road consider the Shakopee bypass and Townline Road? What kind of development will be permitted along the new corridor? Taxes are more now after industry came in which was supposed to reduce taxes. He is thinking about moving. Robert Anderson, 8561 Chanhassen Hills Drive South: Why is the 212 Community Association going to collect tolls? Feels the mayor has a conflict of interest. Council members Chanhassen City Council Minutes August 19, 1996 Page 5 need to represent the citizens. People who favor are long time residents and those who oppose are new. Gary Delaney, Bluff Creek Inn, 1161 Bluff Creek Drive: In 1971 Minnetonka faced the same issue when Highway 12/494 was built. Those residents had the same concerns of this group, but land values still increased. Now Minnetonka and Plymouth's taxes have remained constant. Highway 212 would have a positive impact on the community. The public hearing was closed at this point. Councilman Mike Mason stated that he has been on the council for six years. His first vote was on the Comprehensive Plan document. He expected a fair amount of disagreement, but this does not mean that residents should be rude or discourteous. He respects Bob Smithburg's level of discourse, but does not agree with his opinion. This is not a perfect process. Twenty-nine people spoke tonight, most against the toll road, and that doesn't include those not from Chanhassen. Opponents are usually more vocal on issues than proponents. Mason stated that has lived in Chanhassen for ten years and that he works in Eden Prairie and drove Highway 5 when it was just two lanes. Mason also stated that most people do not carpool and that he can't change people's dependence on automobiles. He further stated that there are good reasons for and against this project, but that we do need the infrastructure and that we can't be shortsighted or insensitive. This road has been on the map and planning has been done in support of the project. There was a short recess at this point. Councilman Mark Senn stated that some years ago a coalition was started to lobby for improvements of Highway 5 and construction of Highway 212. It appeared to be a higher priority for the city than for the state. When construction of the road turned to making it a toll road, he could no longer support it. He stated he talked to many people who questioned the need for the road. He feels a lot of questions remain unanswered. Senn stated that he heard from over 1,000 people and only 10 of those supported it. He stated that he cannot favor another new tax and that that is all the road is--another tax. He feels that we need to get rid of the toll road concept and look hard at other issues that have come up during the debate. MnDOT has not had this road as a priority for over 50 years and it still isn't scheduled until after 2015. The Metropolitan Council doesn't seem to support it. He stated that no one wants 212 and he was elected to serve the citizens. He feels this project is being driven by federal mandates who are looking for a state to do a demo project. Senn stated that he is opposed to the toll because it is just a new tax. Councilwoman Colleen Dockendorf stated that she has lived here for 30 years and has been on the council three and one-half years. She stated that the need for the road is there based on traffic studies and her personal experience driving the roads in this area. She stated that there is only so much a city can do to mitigate growth. The only solution seems to be new roads, additional lanes, and a transit system. She stated that she is currently the chair of the Southwest Metro Transit Chanhassen City Council Minutes August 19, 1996 Page 6 Commission. Dockendorf feels that adding new lanes to Highway 5 isn't feasible financially and Highway 5 already has too many stoplights. She feels that we are in need of Highway 212. The state has abdicated its responsibility to finance roads and it has made a decision that the southwest is the fertile crescent. She stated that the state won't do anything on Highway 212 if we refuse the toll. She shares the fears and concerns of residents, but feels that 212 won't get done without a toll road. Councilman Steve Berquist stated that this has been a very difficult process and that he has already changed his mind twice on how to vote on the issue. He stated that all council members have the best interests of the city on their minds. Berquist is concerned about diving the community. He stated that traffic is over capacity on 1-494 and the need for the road has existed for some time. He doesn't believe that the construction of the road will damage our downtown. He also thought that property values may be affected on a short term basis, but not permanently. Berquist stated that he drives Highway 5, current 212, and Pioneer Trail and believes that some type of improvement is necessary. County Commissioner Ursula Dimler stated that he received 200 responses to a survey she sent out and that 84% were opposed to the toll road. The responses came from a geographically diverse area. She stated that 15 out of the 29 people present tonight are from the Chanhassen Hills neighborhood which is directly affected by the road. The council is pro-neighborhood and pro-community. Brad Johnson stated that ancillary roads will be affected by not constructing the highway. All roads will be congested if we don't build this road. He is very concerned that the council will veto the project. He feels that MnDOT has no other choice for funding roads except through toll fees. He stated that a week ago the council chose not to approve affordable housing, after a lot of opposition, which he felt was due to a lack of imagination by the developer. Johnson stated that the same issues would exist if the road was a free road instead of a toll road. The need for the road is obvious. It won't happen for at least 10 years if it isn't a toll road. Mayor Chmiel stated that he supports Mason' s, Dockendorf' s, and some of Berquist's statements. He stated that for the past 8 years he has done what he thought was best for the residents of Chanhassen. He believes the road is needed. He stated that he has lived here for 21 years and has always been concerned about fiscal responsibility. The council's concern is for what is best for the community. He asked for a motion. Councilman Senn moved to veto the construction of Highway 212 as a toll road. The motion died for lack of a second. A motion was made by Councilman Mason and seconded by Mayor Chmiel to support the construction of Highway 212 as a toll road. Mayor Chmiel and Councilman Mason voted in Chanhassen City Council Minutes August 19, 1996 Page 7 favor. Councilmen Berquist and Senn voted against. Councilwoman Dockendorf abstained from voting. A motion was made by Councilman Berquist and seconded by Councilman Mason to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Meeting adjourned. Don Ashworth City Manager