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CC Minutes 1997 10 27CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:35 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Senn, Councilman Mason, and Councilman Engel COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Berquist STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Kate Aanenson, Todd Hoffman, and Charles Folch APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the agenda with the following amendments: Councilman Senn amended item lC. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Senn seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: Resolution #97-86: Request MnDot to perform speed study on TH 101 south of TH 5 to 86th Street, and also north of TH 5 to sharp curve, PW262f. f. Approval of Bills. City Council Minutes dated October 13, 1997 City Council Minutes dated October 20, 1997 Public Safety Commission Minutes dated October 9, 1997 All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: TRUNK HIGHWAY 7 SAFETY IMPROVEMENTS - MNDOT REPRESENTATIVE PAUL KACHELMEYER (MNDOT PROJECT). Public Present: Name Address Rick Dorsey Jill Lidstone V.R. Isham Kris Knox Mary Knutson Rogers 3941 Leslee Curve 3991 Country Oaks Drive 4030 Leslee Curve 3801 Leslee Curve 3851 Leslee Curve City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Howard Schmidt Rick Raether David Kammerer Frank Scott Zoe Bros 2810 Sandpiper Trail, Excelsior 6200 Cypress Drive 4000 Crestview Drive 2730 Sandpiper Trail 6631 Minnewashta Parkway Paul Kachelmeyer: On the section of Highway 7. Mayor Mancino: Excuse me. Have these handouts gone out to the public in the audience? Paul Kachelmeyer: There are some over here if anybody hasn't gotten any. Mayor Mancino: Is there anyone here tonight? Thank you. Did you need to get the handouts? Good. Anyone else who would like to follow along with the presentation with handouts. Paul Kachelmeyer: MnDot has a work project scheduled on Highway 7 for the year 2000. The project is 8 miles long going from Highway 41 to St. Bonifacius. The main purpose of the project is safety improvement involving quite a number of different things to be done out there. Pave the shoulder on both sides of the road 10 feet wide. We're putting in a number of turn lanes. We're putting in a signalized intersection at the intersection of Rolling Acres Road and Smithtown Road on Highway 7. A number of other minor improvements. This road is not intended to be made any bigger. There are no additional lanes going to be added to the roadway in that project. Mayor Mancino: Any trails? Paul Kachelmeyer: There are no trails being added to the roadway, along the roadway as part of that project. But one thing that we are planning on doing is a significant number of reduction in the access points to the highway in both city streets that come to the highway and driveways. Private driveways. The reason for this is an overall understanding that the number one thing that affects safety on a road like Highway 7 is the number of access points that come down to the roadway. The stretch of Highway 7 that's located in Chanhassen is essentially from Highway 41 out to west of Minnewashta Parkway. Just a little bit beyond that. That stretch of road was looked at as part of the corridor study in 1986 that all the communities along that road took part in. Chanhassen, Shorewood, Excelsior, Victoria. All the other communities along there. Minnetonka. The overall recommendation of the study in '86 was that the number of access points to the highway going all the way from Highway 101 to Minnewashta Parkway was that the number of access points be greatly reduced and that the remaining access points that are there be improved so that they be real safe. They have right turn lanes and left turn lanes. Good sight distance and that kind of thing. So the stretch that is in Chanhassen was looked at back in '86. They were just recommendations. Now that we've got a project going we'll come up with specific recommendations and they essentially follow what was recommended back in '86. It would involve closing off three city street connections to Highway 7 and changing one of the city street connections so that access at that city street connection would be just right turn in and right turn out. The history of closing access, after that 1986 study there have been a number of projects done on Highway 7. People who drive that area, we've rebuilt the intersection of Christmas Lake Road this year. In past years there was Vine Hill Road, Old Market Road, County Road 19. As part of those projects, access reduction was done during all them. There were about a dozen or so city streets closed as part of all those projects. So it's an ongoing effort and continuing into the future actually in some places too. There's a project proposed for Excelsior 2 years from now. As part of that project there would be three city street connections closed and a couple of driveways also. I've City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 got some maps here showing what we're proposing to do at the various streets in Chanhassen. I can try to quickly go through the reasons why we would. Mayor Mancino: That would be very helpful. Paul Kachelmeyer: Oriole Avenue is about the third page back in the handout. Oriole is located about 950 feet west of Highway 41. When there is a major intersection at a highway, what we find is that any intersection that's very close to that major intersection tends to have accident problems and tends to distract drivers from what they need to do or what they've just done at the major intersection. And so we try to make sure that there aren't minor intersections within a quarter mile or so of major intersections. Oriole Street is, like I said about 950 feet west. Oriole also is located at a place where Highway 7 is four lanes east of Highway 41. It goes into a two lane section very quickly west of Highway 41 and right at Oriole is the place where the merging of those two lanes into one lane occurs so all the drivers on Highway 7 are conducting that movement right at the same time that other drivers are conducting a movement to leave the highway and Oriole. We see that as a place where, due to the increased number of things that drivers have to look at at that spot, that creates a hazard. It tums out there aren't an excessive amount of accidents occurring out there. There is 2 or 3 a year or so at the intersection. There probably won't be more as traffic volume goes up. This project that we have proposed for Highway 7 is probably the last project we'll be doing out there for at least 10 years, if not much longer. Traffic volume on Highway 7 in this vicinity of Oriole right now is about 17,000 vehicles a day. We expect that to go up. It's hard to say how fast that will go up. Oriole itself has an uphill grade to it which is pretty steep which means that under slippery driving conditions, vehicles that are exiting either right or left onto Oriole would have difficulty doing that. Left turning movements onto and off of a highway seem to be where the major hazards come from. The accidents that occur out on highways. There's about 50 a year that occur on that 8 mile stretch of Highway 7 that get reported to the Department of Public Safety and about half of those involve people getting injured or killed. And it's left turning accidents seem to be the most major of the ones that involve people getting injured or killed. Turning left off of a road that you don't have very good acceleration on isn't a very good thing. Turning right is also not so good but it seems like people who mm right have a better chance of getting into the traffic stream because they aren't crossing the lane of travel also. Turn to the next page. Washta Bay Road. Washta Bay comes and joins Highway 7 at an angle and across the street but about 50 feet down there's a road on the other side of the street, Pleasant Avenue. That comes at an angle also. A different angle. Two intersections that almost meet but don't quite meet at a highway tend to cause real conflicts of movements. There is not too many accidents that occur there eight, remarkably. Only about 1 or 2 a year end up getting reported. Probably cause for the high number of accidents there is the relatively low volume of traffic that actually uses that intersection. It just really services the local homes in the area. But also leading to a rather complex situation right there at the intersection is again on Washta Bay Road is a steep incline that leads up to the highway. And then a frontage road that comes in just like 15-20 feet back from the highway. If you put those three things together and you've got a lot of potential for conflicting traffic movements at the intersection. I mean again that's the type of intersection that ends up being unsafe and accidents happen. Not a lot of accidents because it's got a relatively low usage. The next drawing in the handout is Cypress Drive. Cypress actually has a very small number of accidents occurring at it, but it's got an extremely steep upgrade leading up to the highway. Steeper than any of the others at all and it'd just be extremely difficult to get out onto the highway safely during slippery driving conditions. It also just serves, there's only 8 homes on that street and there's really close access by adjoining streets. The closeness also contributes to one of the potential hazards out there in that with vehicles going so fast on Highway 7, when streets are close together it tends to lead to confusion to drivers as to just where vehicles are turning. Where drivers have to mm and then to the other drivers where a vehicle might be turning. We feel it's much better to try to get a wider City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 spacing between intersections. The last one on the handout is Leslee Curve and Leslee Curve, the local homeowners around there report that there's about an accident a month occurring out there. And part of the real big reason for that is probably the fact that there are no left mm lanes at the intersection. All the other intersections that we just spoke about, they do have the center two way left mm lane but there's no left mm lane at Leslee Curve. It's also located close to but not across from another city street. Over on the other side of the street is Pipewood Curve, about 300 feet down or so. The vehicles that are turning into Pipewood Curve are making a movement often that is in conflict with vehicles that are either turning into Leslee Curve or vehicles that are going around vehicles that are turning into Leslee Curve. Again, having intersections that are kind of close together but not exactly together tends to be a real unsafe situation. Now there isn't a left turn lane at Leslee Curve or Pipewood Curve and we just simple haven't got the funding in our project to build them either. So that's not really an option that, it's an option that could be done but it's not an option that we have the money to do. I should mention about all of these. There's a plus and there's a minus to closing access. The plus is an improvement in safety and improvement in traffic flow on the highway. To try to insure that the highway is safe to drive on and that it can carry the traffic that's on it. The negative to closing access points is that most people end up being either inconvenienced or disrupted. The inconvenience is that most people who would normally use that intersection won't be able to use it any more and so they have to drive somewhere else to get to the area they want to go and that somewhere else is usually a longer trip. If it's a block or two, maybe it's a halfa mile or more. The disruption is that the vehicles are going elsewhere, it usually means that more vehicles are going by somebody else's house. And the homeowner who perceives that more vehicles will be going by their house is usually somebody who would not support that concept and that's inevitable that it would happen in any case where we close accesses. We've been publicizing what we intend to do out there. Notices were sent out to about 200 residents in Chanhassen. With maps and explanations of what we were proposing to do. I've gotten a lot of phone calls. We've had a public meeting that was advertised in the local paper out here. Had that 3 ½ weeks ago. Many, many people came to the meeting. The reactions I've heard have been mixed. There's endless stories about people who have been in accidents. People who have almost been in accidents or people who knew somebody who was in an accident and they very strongly felt that something should be done about situations that are unsafe out on the highway. Then there are people who lived in the neighborhoods who supported what we're proposing and then there were a number of people who opposed what we are proposing due to that, ... one is people oppose it, there's going to be more traffic by their house and there will be in many cases. And others I've heard who oppose it who see quite a long detour around from the route that they presently take. I think that's as quick a version as I could give. I'd be happy to talk more about any questions people have. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. I'll ask if anyone does have any questions for you tonight. Is there anyone here that has any questions for Mr. Kachelmeyer? If you do, please come forward to the podium. State your name and address and please ask. Jill Lidstone: My name is Jill Lidstone and I live in Chanhassen and the Leslee Curve closure affects me. There's a church right there and I'm wondering how you anticipate. My concern is there's a lot of kids, as there are in many neighborhoods and my concern is that we're taking the traffic, as you said, off the highway and then putting that on the streets where the kids are certainly less likely to be as cautious as they might be around a highway. And especially with the church being there, it seems like we're going to put a lot of traffic onto the local streets instead of taking them right off of Leslee Curve. Plus there doesn't seem to be, there seems to be a great distance for going south of Highway 7 between Minnewashta Parkway and Leslee Curve. So it's not like it's a very short distance. That's my question. Mayor Mancino: Paul, do you want to come on up and answer it so that Jill can hear you. City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Paul Kachelmeyer: A couple items that were raised. The distance between Minnewashta Parkway and Leslee Curve. It's got a good spacing. It's the type of spacing that we'd see as being desirable. You know not too close together like it sits in some other spots. But for some reason there is the accident problem that's existing out there. And so the spacing alone, it's not making a difference. The church, we've looked at the church situation and it would be nice as far as traffic flow if that church weren't there. We looked at could we relocate an entrance just for the church. I'm glad the church is there but you're right. It creates traffic flow through the neighborhood of non-residential people coming and going from the church. It's like a business. Not a lot of good options for locating a driveway out on Highway 7 just for the church. It tums out right in front of the church is the street across the way. And right across from the street across the way on the south side of the road is a great big gully that the drainage from the area flows through. If it wasn't for the great big gully, it'd probably be fairly easy just to move an entrance down just for the church and remove the Leslee Curve one. It wouldn't be too easy doing that. We could possibly leave the entrance there and route it just over to the church and cut it off from the neighborhood, but the neighborhood couldn't come and go but the church traffic would. Neighborhood wouldn't have the church traffic but then the neighborhood wouldn't have the convenience of the access either. We would see that as being acceptable for a couple of reasons. One is, the volume of traffic using the entrance would be greatly reduced and that would reduce the accidents. Mayor Mancino: Would you come back to the Council with that option. I think we'd, I'd like to see it. Paul Kachelmeyer: Sure. If there's support for that I could look at the dimensions of what's out there and see if we can fit it in. There is a couple of other. The option would be to leave the leave the Leslee Curve access right where it is but close it off from the neighborhood streets and connect it over to the church. Mayor Mancino: So that all the church traffic can still go in and out from TH 7 but the neighborhood traffic can't. So you know you wouldn't have the extra church traffic going through the neighborhood. Paul Kachelmeyer: There is a church down in Excelsior, or actually it's in Shorewood I think, that has an entrance off of the highway that would appear to be an undesirable entrance as far as safety goes but church traffic tends to be you know Sunday morning and a couple nights of the week, and people coming and going from church aren't in a tremendous hurry. They're not trying to get to their job that they're already 10 minutes late to, and for some reason churches don't seem to generate the same type of driver that is normally out on the road. Mayor Mancino: We all go to church so. Paul Kachelmeyer: While people are going to church, they seem to drive different. Maybe that's a different way of putting it. So that'd be an option we could look at. We are here, our purpose for talking to the Council for publicizing what we're doing is to hear ideas and concerns. We haven't just decided we want to do something and are going to hold to that. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Jill, I may ask you to come up again but just one second. Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Couple questions, just to follow up. Why can't, or I guess why have you dispelled the introduction of just simply the turn lanes at that point? City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Paul Kachelmeyer: Well we figured the mm lanes would cost about a quarter of a million dollars and we simply don't have that money to do it. Councilman Senn: Okay. And what about the issue with the gully. Why can't you deal with the drainage issue by introducing. Paul Kachelmeyer: Right. Engineering wise you know we could construct something. We'd have to divert the flow from one spot to another spot. Re-route a culvert underneath the highway. That could probably also be achieved but it would also start getting real expensive. And it actually, over by Pipewood Curve it's in a worse location than Leslee Curve as far as sight distance from the road goes. It's near to a curve and it's near to an area where we can't really widened the road due to a wetland being on the north side of the road. So if money weren't an issue, it's something that could be done but then the sight distance problem would still be there. Councilman Senn: Okay. But well what, I mean it's hard for us to evaluate these without understanding you know effectively more of what you're talking about on the money issues. I mean it's kind of like you know, we don't have enough money to do this but we're going to do it anyway so we're going to do kind of a you know half whatever job of it. I mean it's almost kind of what I started hearing and so if you could put that in perspective, I think that might help everybody understand what we're trying to deal with. Paul Kachelmeyer: Okay. The money situation, you know you see a lot of highway work going on. Why is money getting spent in one spot and not another spot? There hasn't been a gas tax increase since 1988 and people are driving more so they are paying more in gas taxes but construction costs have gone up for highways way faster than the inflation rate than the increase in driving. The net result is, there isn't a project done today where we do it the way we'd really like to if money weren't an issue. All along Highway 7 there's a hundred spots where I've made concessions, something we'd like to do but we can't because of a shortage of money. We pretty much have gotten a certain amount of money to spend on this stretch of road. That's probably all we're going to get to spend on it for at least 10 years and we've got to decide, an improvement at one intersection would mean something not being done at another intersection. So the intersections where we've decided to do expensive improvements have been in the intersections where we felt traffic volumes or accident situations merited it. Mayor Mancino: Any other questions from councilmembers? Councilman Senn: Not for now. Mayor Mancino: Thank you Mr. Kachelmeyer. Jill, did you have another question? I sense you do. We just want to make sure we get it in the Minutes so that if we have to go back. Jill Lidstone: Okay. If we don't, I mean what is our opportunity for recourse if we don't agree with some of the closings? I mean is this it? Just to tell you that we don't agree or what happens next? I mean are these done or are these proposed? Paul Kachelmeyer: The closings we're proposing are proposed. We seek the City Council approval of these closings. If we don't get the City Council approval, we probably would not close them. We do see reasons why we think they should be closed. Something that I have personally heard many times is a rather extreme statement so I'll warn you it's a rather extreme statement but it's the statement, how many people have to get killed before you do something? Or does somebody have to get killed before you do something? City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Well in this case we've got a project. We're proposing to do things in places where we see a potential for accidents to occur and if the City Council does not want us to do that, in a way they've decided that at the time you would rather wait to see if the accident problem worsens or somebody gets killed before we do something. And that's kind of an offensive way to put it now but it's a statement I've heard many, many times. We are wanting to do something strictly for safety purposes out on the highway. This is what we think would make for a safer roadway. We're seeking the City Council approval in our decision to do that. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Jill, to answer you further and Mr. Kachelmeyer, will you still stay up please. We will, this is a visitor presentations so we will not be making a motion for approval tonight. This is for us to really hear it for the first time. To hear your issues and he will come back to us with the option of the church and having it's access out of TH 7. And maybe give us some cost figures to go with the gully and the work that needs to be there. I mean exactly how much are you anticipating that would cost in addition if. Councilman Senn: Well I guess, I also would like you to bring back some budget numbers to us. I mean what's the total project budget. Where it's being allocated to the different points. Paul Kachelmeyer: I can give you that right now. The total project budget for the 8 mile stretch of road, from Highway 41 out to St. Bonifacius is $3 million. Probably about half of that is going in to just paving the shoulders along the road. So that's a million and a half. About a million is probably going into adding mm lanes and intersections. And oh probably about half a million is going into the work that's going to be needed down at Smithtown Road and Rolling Acres Road. Signalizing that intersection and completely reconstructing what's out there. And there isn't much left over after that. There's minor safety things. Putting up guard rails. Flattening some slopes and that's about it. The access closures are typically not an expensive thing because they're removals. Councilman Senn: Okay, $1.5 million is to pave the shoulders. Why do you need to pave the shoulders? Paul Kachelmeyer: The unpaved shoulders on heavily traveled roads tend to greatly contribute to accidents that occur. There are a lot of head-on accidents that occur on Highway 7. When vehicles are going 60 mph down a highway, somebody's coming at them, apparently in the past a lot of people have not felt that hitting the shoulder was an option and in some cases that decision resulted in somebody getting killed. Also when somebody goes off the road and their vehicles, or their tires hit the gravel shoulder while the other tires are on the pavement, they go out of control. Paving shoulders is you know, after accident, access reduction, it's almost like an equal thing that can be done for safety improvement on a road like that. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. One other question. What other roads...Highway 5? We have TH 5 and TH 7. Paul Kachelmeyer: The only road that I work on is Highway 7 and so if you have questions on others, I wouldn't know the answers. But I do know that Highway 41 is a state highway. Mayor Mancino: My only question is more conceptually. As we're going about and we're developing our city and we have accesses going out to MnDot roads, and I know that every single subdivision, every single access and I'm sure that Oriole, Leslee and Cypress, you know at some point came in front of you to okay. I want to make sure that, you know in the future we won't be going back and closing. I mean is MnDot looking at that right now as we are developing as a City and making sure that we're not going to have problems in the future? City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Paul Kachelmeyer: An extremely diligent thing that we do now that wasn't done in the past is we try to have a great influence in where any new accesses onto the highway go and we try extremely strongly to work with city planners to ensure that good access locations are put in and that new developments don't necessarily hook up to the highway. That they hook up to existing developments, and it's usually quite a fight because when developers develop land, they usually develop as much land as they own. The adjacent parcels that are not theirs, the developer usually isn't concerned about and at that time it's usually up to MnDot and the City to work together to somehow or another look out for the concerns of those parcels that aren't being developed at that time. Make sure that they will have a good connection to some road when it does come time that they develop. Mayor Mancino: Okay. So you're looking at that now, good. Thank you. Any other questions from Council members? Anyone else tonight in the audience wishing to ask a question. We have one more question for. Or a couple more. Please come up to the podium. State your name and address. Zoe Bros: I'm Zoe Bros. I live on Minnewashta Parkway...accesses that will get the cars out of the neighborhood... Now it seems to me we're going to be backing them up and they're going to be winding around all over every trail.., traffic within our community.., kids are crossing Minnewashta Parkway. Like we're going to kind of bottle it up so traffic is going to have to all come back into one source... Mayor Mancino: Well that is exactly what we're trying to do now and not make so many accesses on our major highways. So that there will be more inter-neighborhood traffic and so that cars will go slower and hopefully will obey the speed limits. And I mean, that's why we also have trails so that people will not only be in their cars but be walking and bike riding, etc. But most people don't want to do that on the highway. Frank. Frank Scott: Yes, Frank Scott and I'm from the Sandpiper Trail. My question is, today we have three accesses into that entire area from Washta Bay Road up to TH 41. Into all those houses. There is three of them. They're planning on closing two of them down to left turn lanes. Washta Bay would close. You couldn't turn left into Oriole. The only place you'll have left to turn left is going to be Sandpiper. Unless you're coming from St. Boni, you can't get in that way. I imagine a lot of people are going to be going past that and trying to do a U turn on TH 7 to get back. Take a right turn into Oriole because there's an awful lot of cars...to get into that area. This map shows there's a connection to TH 41 and if there is, it's pretty well hidden because I haven't seen it for a number of years so. Right now we have three accesses and they plan on basically closing two of them to the majority of the traffic coming from the east, Minneapolis area, to get into this area. Mayor Mancino: Do you know what the traffic count is? I mean how many homes it is at all that will be just using the one? Frank Scott: I do not know how many homes there are, but there's a small industrial complex also that's right off Oriole that the traffic goes in and out of. But there's quite a big of turning, what's happened on Oriole Avenue. Mayor Mancino: Paul, have you quantified that number to find out what the difference will be? I mean how many will be using the one access because you'll be closing the two. City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Paul Kachelmeyer: No, we haven't made an estimate. It would be fairly easy to try to come up with something. Mayor Mancino: That would be helpful. Paul Kachelmeyer: ... pointed out that I didn't realize. Mayor Mancino: Paul, could you come up to the podium too. Paul Kachelmeyer: Sorry bout that. Something that was pointed out that I see is absolutely true is this map does show that there's a 64th Street that connects over to Highway 41 and that connection was removed apparently a number of years ago. So there is no other, there is no connection to Highway 41 from this neighborhood. You know I just picked a map out of our source of maps to draw up for this and that was a mistake. Mayor Mancino: Well if you could, when you do come back, if you can quantify those numbers and tell us, you know how many more, how much more traffic there will be on the one entrance and exit, we'd appreciate that. Now, we will be notifying as a city Don, correctly, the next time Mr. Kachelmeyer comes back and we can have a public hearing on this. Correct? Don Ashworth: Well it will be printed in the Villager, but what I would suggest, because I know many of the people, especially in the Minnewashta area do not get the Villager. So if you would, if you're here for this item, could you mark it. I believe we sent out an attendance and make sure that your name and address is on there. Somehow mark on there Minnewashta item so I'll know who you are. Mayor Mancino: Or Highway 7. Say Highway 7 improvements and then we will make sure that we send you an announcement of when we will have our next public hearing and some of the answers to these questions. If also any of you have questions between, you know this next week, write them down. Please send them to us at City Hall and we'll get them to Mr. Kachelmeyer to answer for our next meeting. Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: A couple more maybe to take with you just before you go. When you're going to effectively pave the shoulders. Paul Kachelmeyer: It'd be in the year 2000. Councilman Senn: No, no. When you pave the shoulders. Paul Kachelmeyer: Oh, I'm sorry. Councilman Senn: Okay, it's kind of a. When you pave the shoulders you're going to also introduce you know like turning movements. You said turning lanes, that sort of thing. Okay, are you going to broaden the road at the point that you're going to introduce the turn lanes or are you simply going to utilize the then paved shoulder to introduce the turn lanes? Paul Kachelmeyer: No, we would build a standard right turn lane which is 12 feet wide, whereas we plan on paving the shoulders 10 feet wide. And the 12 foot wide section would extend back for, like 500 feet for a right turn lane. If we're building a left turn lane, that means widening the whole driving surface of the City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 road for a distance of like a quarter mile in either direction of the intersection and we're planning on doing that. Not at any location in Chanhassen but that involves you know widening of the road so that the road has standard left mm land. Standard right mm lane where those turning movements would be occurring. Councilman Senn: Is the 10 foot versus 12 foot in safety circles or whatever, something that's critical or what? Paul Kachelmeyer: Yeah. For turning movement. A standard driving lane is 12 feet wide. Councilman Senn: No, I understand. But when you're going into a turning movement you're not going anywhere near the speed you're going to be going in a standard lane. So I'm saying you've slowed down. You've exercised caution. You're going to turn. Paul Kachelmeyer: Right. There's a number of turn lanes in the metro area that are less than 12 feet wide. Right mm lanes. Councilman Senn: All right. I know that. Paul Kachelmeyer: But if we're building something brand new, spending all the money to do it, we'd make it 12 feet wide. Councilman Senn: Well but the point I'm trying to get at is you're going to pave the shoulders all anyway 10 feet. For the whole distance. You're going to spend a million and a half doing that. You know looking at your plans here, you know you've got a million tied up in turn lanes. It seems to me if you adapted your plan to utilize little narrower mm lane and use that within your paved shoulder, it would free up dollars to deal with some of these other situations that really need to be dealt with which you know, which could accomplish you know a little bit more out of the project, you know with a little flexibility simply over a 2 foot section because I mean I know there's a lot of turn lanes that are less than 12 feet in width. Now granted it's not the ideal but again we're trying to improve the overall safety and at the same time as improving the overall safety, we're also trying to keep in mind the safety within the neighborhoods and stuff that we're doing here too. Not just purely the safety on the highway. And if some of those situations could be treated more effectively by some trade off on those dollars and use of those dollars, where it just seems to me you ought to be looking at it. That's all. Paul Kachelmeyer: Well that sounds like a real reasonable thing to ask. Actually when this project originally got programmed, we were only anticipating building shoulders that were 8 feet wide. And then it tums out that you had asked about trails. There's a lot of trail crossings. Snowmobile trails, hiking, that cross the highway. There's none that run parallel to it, although I believe Chanhassen recently made a proposal to try to get funding for a section of trail along the highway. I haven't heard about it so. Mayor Mancino: We passed a referendum. Paul Kachelmeyer: It tums out back during the corridor study in '86, and again there was a corridor study that was done for the stretch of highway from Minnewashta Parkway all the way out to Hutchinson. That was done 2 years ago and that involved an involvement by all the communities between here and Hutchinson. There was a strong push for trying to accommodate trail use along the highway. Despite the fact that most people wouldn't want to calmly walk along the highway, it tums out there's a heck of a lot of bicyclists who use the road. I've encountered dozens of them using the gravel shoulder that's out there 10 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 now. And we were allocated additional money for the project in order to pave the shoulders 10 feet wide. That more or less came out of a trails allocation so that's why we're having 10 foot shoulders and if we reduce the 10 foot shoulders, the money would probably get taken away. In building. Councilman Senn: Why though? I'm just curious because I mean 2 feet isn't going to buy you or not buy you bike trails. You're going to be in conflict with the turning movements with bike trails regardless because as soon as you introduce the turning movement you're going to cross whatever bike lane is there. I mean it seems to me again you can minimize your stuff there a little bit and accomplish some other practical. Paul Kachelmeyer: Oh, you're right. You know we could make decisions to do different things and free money up from one. I just wanted to go into a little bit of the background that turns out bikeways, trails, was a consideration on this project and that's why it actually is getting the amount of money it is getting. As far as the construction of turn lanes go, when we make pavement for shoulders, we don't make it very thick. Turn lanes are much, much thicker because they receive much, much more traffic. The shoulders are kind of designed so that if somebody needs to pull off the road, they can pull off the road without sinking into the mud and so that bicyclists can ride along there but it's not anticipated that they get much traffic. So the construction of the turn lane ends up involving a whole lot thicker pavement plus a whole lot thicker granular and sand material underneath the pavement. Mayor Mancino: Any other questions councilman? Councilman Senn: Not for now. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else here tonight wishing to. Howard Schmidt: My name is Howard Schmidt. Mayor Mancino: I bet some of you didn't realize you were going to learn about highways tonight but we're glad you're here. Howard Schmidt: My name is Howard Schmidt and I live on 2810 Sandpiper Trail. The same place he does, and what gets me, they're talking closing two roads. But they just got done building across the street from me 12 new homes but now they want to start. I was there when they closed the back road out to TH 41 and that really hurt. Because I used to use that road a lot because you'd go on, you'd get onto TH 41 real easy and go out to TH 5 and go anyway you wanted which was better. Now it's closed. Now they're talking about closing some more. And we still, we're getting more people built in these territories but they're going to put them all on one road. How are they going to get out? I've sat out on, I live on Sandpiper Trail where I come out. I've come out there where I've sat 15-20 minutes just to make a turn to go west. Or go east, not west. Go east into town. Because it's just.., and the other thing. Since they made, they remodeled TH 41, or TH 7, it's like a race track. Now here about 3 months, or about a year and a half ago they had a big radar set up and for about 3 solid months there was decent traffic on that road. But now they're back to the same thing. Mayor Mancino: Thank you for your comments. Kris Knox: Good evening, my name is Kris Knox. I live in the Minnewashta Parkway area. A couple comments that I've heard from Leslee Curve is that that closing, the idea of coming up with an idea to 11 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 separate the church traffic from the neighborhood traffic. First of all, some of the neighborhood go to that church so I mean to drive all the way around, is pretty ridiculous. Also the idea, if you look on this map here you'll see this whole area here which is between 80 and 100 homes is served by two areas on either end of the neighborhood. One off TH 7 and Leslee Curve, which is the proposed stop place. And the other off Minnewashta Parkway. You know sheer numbers of half the people use that, which I do all the time and I know a lot of neighbors do. That means a lot of traffic to be funneled through one entrance to that whole giant neighborhood, which is ridiculous. I have called several times this summer. The traffic on Minnewashta Parkway. The speeders are bad enough. There's parks all along there, as you know as far as private or association beaches. There's traffic problems already with speeders on Minnewashta Parkway and between Minnewashta Parkway and, or between Glendale, which is the other entrance to that neighborhood and Highway 41, you're going to double the traffic. They're going to be in more of a hurry because they've got to go three times the way around to get to their same house and it's just going to cause more problems with speeders. More problems with the traffic through the one entrance into that whole neighborhood at this point. It seems like a ridiculous idea. I've been driving out there for millions of miles and maybe I don't know where the reports of one accident a month and maybe that's true but as a person that drives on the road for business in the area every day, I've never had a problem with accidents. I've never seen an accident out there personally so the idea of all the disruption and the potential danger to the neighborhood as far as speeders go does not seem worth it for the Leslee Curve spot as far as I can see. That's everything I had on my list, thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else? Okay and as I said, please remember to sign up and to write us any of your thoughts this week and we'll make sure that we will get those to Mr. Kachelmeyer. Thank you very much for coming tonight. Appreciate it. REFERENDUM UPDATE~ SCHOOL DISTRICT NO. 112. Mayor Mancino: Next item under visitor presentation, scheduled item is School District 112 officials updating us on any new information about the November 4th referendum. You've got a crowd tonight. Dave Clough: Yeah, I don't think they're here for this but. They are here for. Mayor Mancino: Wait. Let me just ask one question. How many of the people in here do go to a school in District 1127 Oh, there you go. They're here for this. Thank you. Thank you. Dave Clough: They're here to talk to you about another issue that is very important to the school district also. I'm Dave Clough. I'm the Superintendent of the Schools. I do live in Chanhassen. Thank you Mayor, Council, staff. You've given us time twice now at a work session and another Council meeting to explain the referendum. The only reason we're back tonight is when we presented information to you earlier on the tax impacts, we did tell you that we knew that there were changes coming based upon the actions of the legislature last spring and we do have that updated information now. We're just going to take a very short time to present that to you. And again, our thanks to you for giving us time, three different times, to help our citizens better understand the November 4th referendum. Dave Peterson is our Finance Director and he will present the information. Dave. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Dave Peterson: Yes, thank you for inviting us back. What we have of course is a very unusual school district. School District 112 is exhibiting the characteristics of only 20 districts in the State of Minnesota 12 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 and that primarily is that we're a fast growth district. We have been growing at 300-400 students a year and that growth will continue. All of the evidence that we have from the Met Council and from our demography shows steady and continuing growth. When a district is growing such as this we need to, just as you and the County and the State of Minnesota build the infrastructure, and as the number of students increases, we need to create space. When we have to create space we either rent it or build it, remodel it but that takes usually a bond referendum. What we're working with you from last summer through today and up through November 4th with is the other type of referendum. The referendum that provides general fund and operating dollars that go into our system that can create the learning and activity in the classroom. We have up for a vote Question No. 1, a $1.25 million, 8 year referendum question. And also a $400,000.00 Question Number 2, 8 year referendum for technology. We've gone through those presentations with you and with the public to quite a large degree. The information tonight is a short package. Very short of good news. Funding all of this activity is the State Omnibus Tax Bill and also the State Omnibus Education Bill. Two bills have come together. The legislature passed a very significant tax relief program for commercial industry, retail and also a very substantial tax relief program for homeowners... They all go in effect in 1998. The very year that this tax levy begins. What we have for our tax impacts is about a 10% reduction in what has been mailed to the homeowners in the Truth in Taxation parcel specific notification that went out last week. The reason that this new information is coming is that it's taken the State of Minnesota, Department of Revenue that long to create software to give to the 87 county auditors across the state to be able to calculate what the value of our school district is under the new law. When all of the new calculations are made we have a significant impact with our levy for the referendum, if it passes. And that impact is down. Because of the new law and the shift, the State surplus into tax relief, both in the decreasing State tax rate and also the new classifications which lower the value of the homesteads over $75,000.00, and a commercial industrial by about 25% across the board. The impact of this referendum has gone down about 10% from what's been actually advertised and notified. These are the new impact statements. Mayor Mancino: Dave are you telling me, excuse me. Do you mind my asking a question? On my property tax for my residence, are you telling me that the line item, now I don't live in District 112. I live in 276, but ifI lived in District 112, that line item that said school levy, or school property tax would be decreased by 10%? Dave Peterson: It actually goes down 12%. Mayor Mancino: It will go down 12%, according to last year if my home value is still the same as it was last year. Dave Peterson: All of our tax projects are on the assumption that your home is not reassessed or your industry property. By law that needs to be looked at by the County Assessor or the City Assessor every 4 years as a minimum, and it needs to stay within I believe it's 90% of the actual sale. So yes, we're in an area where there is inflation and equity going into the structures that we have. We're becoming more valuable each day. That's good news when it comes to sell. It's also good news for cash flow and other kind of financial statements. The issue however is that the school, cities, and the county, we don't control that. That's a matter of the interpretation of the state law by the assessors. So all of this data is on the basis that all we can say is that we can give you a model of one value home in '97 to the same value home in '98. Mayor Mancino: In '98. Okay. 13 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Dave Peterson: ... many of our properties stay the same. Now when you take. Mayor Mancino: I hope mine does. Dave Peterson: When you take all of the school taxes. You remember our school taxes are about ½ of all the property tax paid in School District 112, so if you go to Victoria, Carver, Chaska, Chanhassen, right around 50% of the total property tax goes to the school. There are over 26 different levies that we make. The crime drug levies. There's the general foundation they've formed levy. Capital outlay. Health and safety. Transportation... Only one of the levies that we're talking about is this excess levy referendum. But if you take all of the school levies that are posed now to certify on December 11th, the actual levies. If you look at that, it's $1,317.00 before the referendum. If both questions pass, you would add $97.00 plus $31.00 for a total tax bill in 1998 on a $150,000.00 home of $1,445.00. This is before your 20% reduction in property tax on your State Income Tax return at the end of '98. That's going to be another tax relief program that goes into effect. None of this shows that impact. This is of course good news to us because when you look at both the homesteads and the commercial, just take the homestead and focusing on the $150,000.00. That was just the home that I took. By the way, if anybody has individual homes or very complicated apartment complexes, industry, any of the commercial/industrial base, we can do calculations on an individual basis and we're available for that kind of personal counseling. If we can't answer it, we have our financial advisors who are standing by... to help any individual taxpayer. But when you put all of this together and you say okay, pass both referendum questions and compare the taxes of '97 to '98. If you look at the blue column is '97 tax. The maroon is '98. On any valued home over $75,000.00, there's a significant tax reduction, even if the property tax impact of the referendum goes into effect. Now, if the referendum would fail. Mayor Mancino: There'd be more. Dave Peterson: Obviously your taxes go down further than this. Okay. Because you wouldn't be applying this. In that case the tax reduction would be about $250.00 on a $150,000.00 home. So the tax relief program created by the State surplus that the legislature spread is a tremendous impact on property. It's one of the largest property tax relief programs in modem history. It may be unprecedented. If you look at the commercial industry.., some of our community in District 112, we're building an infrastructural wealth here that will parallel any school district in the future. That is coming on line and being developed in all of our communities. But if you look at a $1 million business, of which we have many, if the referendum passes, that's what this bar graph is assuming. The tax reduction to that industry is still $6,257.00. That's with the referendum passing. Obviously if the referendum did not pass, or we weren't holding it, this would go down around $10,000.00. So the good news and the short package of what we have been anticipating the new law would provide for us since last July has in fact come to fruition and we now have the numbers to prove and document the case. And with that we thank you very much for letting us present this to the public and.., very interested in this and we appreciate your fine comments of support at the last meeting also. If you have any questions, Superintendent Clough or I are available now or after. We'll go out in the hall and... Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Is there anyone here tonight that has any questions on the referendum? I don't see any but you're available. What's your number? What's the quick call, hotline number for any questions? Dave Peterson: I'd have to look that one up. My number is 368-3623... 14 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Oh excuse me. Please come forward to the podium and state your name and address please. Susie Blake: I have a question. I'm Susie Blake and I live at 8040 Hidden Circle. I've had a couple people ask me, is it possible to do an absentee ballot for the referendum? Dave Peterson: Yes. They have to do it Monday and you should.., go into the school district office. It's getting pretty late to do them by mail... Councilman Engel: When was that to be in by Dave? Dave Peterson: The absentee ballots have to be done, I would say by Monday. I mean technically if they come in the mail, they should still come in Tuesday's mail. Councilman Engel: Which is the 2nd? Mayor Mancino: No, Monday's the 3rd. Isn't it? Dave Peterson: Monday's the 3rd. Mayor Mancino: Monday's the 3rd and the 4th is voting day. On Tuesday. Councilman Engel: Okay, got it. Dave Peterson: The best thing is to just go in and go to the office. And then otherwise we have to send you an application. You have to send it back and then we have to mail you the ballot. You have to mail it back. It's getting very tight time wise. Mayor Mancino: And again all Chanhassen 112 residents vote at the Rec Center. Dave Peterson: Chanhassen Rec Center, Community Rooms 1 and 2. Everything is set. There will be 15 voting booths in there and we're looking forward to a real efficient flow of people. Mayor Mancino: And are you handing out Halloween candy? Or post Halloween candy? Councilman Mason: I bet there's a law against that. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Okay, moving on to the agenda. And I would like to say we have a public hearing next but I would like to thank everyone who is here tonight for being so polite and listening. I really appreciate it. PUBLIC HEARING: CERTIFICATION OF DELINQUENT UTILITY ACCOUNTS. Don Ashworth: Each year the City Council goes through a process. The City does of notifying those residents, property owners that are delinquent on their utility bill. State law provides a process by which a city can certify the delinquent account such as that to the County Auditor for collection with the next year's property tax statement. We have notified everyone on the list that the City Council has in their packet, that we intend to make that certification this evening. I did have two written responses which the Council has 15 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 copies of. I think one of those we have settled out. I've not heard from the other. I would suggest that the Council open this public hearing. See if there are any other comments and staff would recommend certification of the delinquent list at the end of the hearing process. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any questions for Mr. Ashworth at this time? Then this is open for a public hearing. Anyone wishing to address the Council on the delinquent utility bills, please come forward at this time. State your name and address. Seeing none, oh okay. Denny Sullivan: I think I may be one of the ones who wrote. Sullivan. Don Ashworth: The City Council does have a copy of your letter. I believe you talked to somebody in finance here 3-4 weeks ago. Maybe a little longer and I don't know. Denny Sullivan: I haven't talked to anybody. Since I got the letter back in August from you guys. Don Ashworth: Okay. Mayor Mancino: What would you like to state Mr. Sullivan? Denny Sullivan: Well as I said in my letter, basically I've stopped paying my water bill because over a period of time I've had brown water and I've talked to the City Works people and they said well just don't pay for water on that day, so I haven't. And those, I've documented it and sent it into them and when I pay my water bill but of course you keep billing me back for it and to the point now where I think I owe you $500.00 some dollars over the last 6 or 7 years. Mayor Mancino: This has been going on for 6 or 7 years? Denny Sullivan: Yeah. You just keep billing me back for it and I keep keeping track of which days it's brown and they tell me to mn the hose, and so I mn the hose, which of course I'm getting charged sewer on also. They say we're flushing lines and we're doing this and it's gunk coming off the lines but I mean I'm mining laundry. Replacing appliances. It's just not, as I said in my letter, it's not just for an hour or two a day. It's for days on end. In fact, after I got your last letter, the next day we got, this is water right out of my tap for about a day. Mayor Mancino: I've seen worse. Denny Sullivan: This is a pickle jar and my kids thought it was actually pickle juice. Mayor Mancino: I was going to say something else but. Denny Sullivan: It doesn't look very good when you get a whole bath tub full of it. And so I guess what I've asked for is my current bill is $500, at the time we wrote the letter it was $545.00. I've paid it down since then by about $300.00 but I thought you should split that with me for the water I've been writing off over the last 6 years. 7 years now. Councilman Engel: Do you have neighbors that live on either side of you? 16 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Denny Sullivan: Yes. Yeah, we live on a development on a dead end which is I've been told is one of the issues. Councilman Engel: How's theirs? Denny Sullivan: I don't know. I know that they have problems. I don't know if it's hard water related or you know, a lot of faucet washers in our neighborhood are gone and a lot of water softeners that are having a tough time. The main problem really, you know for drinking it's disgusting but you can drink it but it's really tough to do laundry. And the solution of running my hose until it goes away, it's sort of starting to bother me after a while because you know I'm paying sewer on that water that I'm running down the street. Mayor Mancino: My suggestion would be for you and I and Mr. Sullivan to meet and let's get on your calendar and have a meeting on this. I'll come over and look at water, etc., and we'll go forward with this, if this has been going on for 6 or 7 years. Do you have an office number? Denny Sullivan: Yes. Mayor Mancino: And what is that? Denny Sullivan: 401-0631. Mayor Mancino: Okay. So that's what's on your letter here? Good. Denny Sullivan: Is it? I may have changed. Yeah, that's it. Mayor Mancino: Well I would ask that the Council, until Mr. Ashworth and I can meet with Mr. Sullivan, delete his name from this and go ahead and have a motion and then we'll come back and we'll settle that. Denny Sullivan: Thank you. Don Ashworth: If I may. Staff would suggest that you end up adopting the entire certification list, including Mr. Sullivan's. We've got a 30 day period in which people can pay. We can still come back in 2 weeks and potentially adjust his downward but at least we would have started that 30 day, that 30 day clock. Mayor Mancino: Okay. So that means we'll have to come to resolution soon, which is good. Okay. Then may I, thank you Mr. Ashworth. Can I have a motion certifying delinquent utility accounts to Carver County? Councilman Senn: Mayor, we haven't even closed the public hearing yet. Mayor Mancino: Oh, thank you. I just was going forward to the next one. Anyone else here tonight? Wishing to address the Council? Then I will close the public hearing. Then. Councilman Senn: Back there? Kris Imker: Can I just say something from back here instead of walking all the way up there? 17 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: No, you must come up here. Thank you. We want to get you on tape. Kris Imker: Well I'm not one to come up and speak at meetings. I'm Kris Imker. I live at 8163 Marsh Drive. Our water is awful too. I mean if you take a poll, I'm sure it's not just this gentleman and we've called too and basically what they tell us is to run it until it's clear. So maybe there's a problem you might want to look into. Mayor Mancino: We are. Thank you. May I also say that many times when people call, the utilities department, Jerry Boucher who is the head of it, will come out within 24 hours if you're having a real problem and flush the hydrant nearest to you. Leave it going for 45 minutes. Make sure that it has been rechlorinated so that you don't have a problem and then will come to your home, and this is really called customer service. And then will come to your home and have you run your water and make sure it's okay. Denny. Denny Sullivan: What happens when they do that, the guy who's the next one down the line gets.., water. Mayor Mancino: Well they run the hydrants. The hydrant has to be cleared. Denny Sullivan: Well that's one of the explanations they gave me. We're flushing hydrants in your neighborhood. You're downstream so that's why you're... Mayor Mancino: So you get all the stuff. Okay. Well I don't, you know I'm not the expert on this but thank you for your comment. Bringing it back to Council, may I have a motion please. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Then may I have a motion? Or any discussion first? Councilman Senn: Yeah, as far as certifying the roll. I mean I don't have a problem certifying the roll but I guess I'd like to certify it on the basis that at least on these two appeals that we get some feedback on it one way or the other at the next meeting. Because especially in terms of one of them, we really have no data coming into it tonight other than the letter. Secondly, you know I don't know how we get at explaining our water problems but I think we need to get more effective at it. It's not a new problem. It's been going on for a long time. City Council people aren't immune either. I've blown out a water softener and a few other things. There's no good solutions but I think if nothing else, it sounds like some of the problems we have are being caused not only by the rust, you know by the water itself, but by I'm going to say our lack of education or at least a good explanation as to what's causing it and what you can do about it to at least help avoid it, remedy it, or whatever and I think we ought to really follow up on that versus just kind of go through this routine again and keep providing the same pat answers because obviously the same pat answers aren't working. Mayor Mancino: Well I can think of two things. I mean number one, it would certainly be worth it to put it on the agenda, City Council agenda and to have our, have Jerry Boucher come and talk to us about it. I know that there is also going to be an article in our newsletter, in our winter newsletter that talks about some of the rusty water problems and what the City is doing but I think that's a very good idea. 18 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: With that, unless there's other comments, I would certification of the sewer and water bills to the County with the stipulation on those, at least two appeals we do get some follow-up at the next meeting. Councilman Mason: Second. Resolution #97-87: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the Certification of Sewer and Water Bills to the County. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER REQUEST FOR A DONATION, CHASKA COMMUNITY HOCKEY ASSOCIATION. Public Present: Name Address Dave, Cass & Abby Kreitlow Eric Enger David M. Kelly Montgomery Eric & Kris Imker Robin & Derek O'Borsky Bryan & Mark Giordana John & Lezlie Vechart Berg Amy & Tyler Erickson Julie Fury Daniel Berg Jim & Kathryn Liddell Chase Carroll Randy Mueller Barbara & Aaron Larson Jason, Mike & Mary Ehrmantraut Carol & Bryan McGovem Beverly Erickson Susie, Patrick & Kerry Blake Todd Porter Diane, David & Adam Zamjahn Kathy Fisher Elisabeth Vargas Bryan Botz L., Shawn & Layton Zellman Dan Obermeyer B.A. Greg & David Hromatka Kevin P. McShane Jim Leaman 1702 Valley Ridge Trail North Vine Hill Road 5233 Birch Road 17833 Powderhorn Drive 8163 Marsh Drive 1027 Pontiac Lane 8120 Hidden Court 420 Santa Fe Circle 7090 Pimlico Lane 20 Fox Hollow 20 Fox Hollow 2550 Bridle Creek Trail Victoria 8470 Pelican Court 8510 Spoonbill Court 900 Penamint Court 520 Pineview Court 8040 Hidden Circle 9261 Kiowa 7506 - 77th Street 2236 Stone Creek Lane E. 2596 Southern Court 8743 Flamingo Drive 2290 Timberwood Drive 1540 Heron Drive 7280 Cactus Curve 7580 Canyon Curve 180 South Shore Court 19 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Well we, as a City Council have, as you all know that are here tonight, have done a lot of considering of the request from the Chaska Community Hockey Association. We have searched our souls. We have done a lot of discussing. We have done a lot of listening. And I'd like to read a reply on behalf of the entire Chanhassen City Council on the request for a donation from the City of Chanhassen to assist in the creation of a new sheet of ice to be constructed as an addition to the Chaska Community Center. The situation. A relative shortage of ice sheets is making it increasingly difficult for children in organized hockey to have access to indoor ice time. Recent state legislation mandating equal access for gender equity has put additional pressure on the ice facilities in our arena. Excuse me, in our area. Talk to any parent with a child in hockey and you'll hear the strange hours many of them have to get up to get their kids to practice and the distances they have to drive to get to indoor facilities. The proposal. The Chaska Community Hockey Association recently approached the City of Chanhassen with a request for a donation of $120,000.00 to be paid to the City of Chaska to help underwrite a portion of the construction costs for a second sheet of ice. When completed the entire facility is expected to cost approximately $2,250,000.00, exclusive of operating costs. This sheet will be built as an addition to the existing Chaska Community Center. This proposed donation would be spread over a 3 to 5 year time period and would help create one new sheet of ice, but it would not pay for any actual ice time. Our position. This is a worthy cause and the Chaska Community Hockey Association has come up with a creative approach to fund an expensive project. They should be commended for their efforts to make this kind of an amenity available to the hockey players and recreational skaters in our area. We value the time and energy the volunteers from our community give to all youth athletic programs. However, there are a number of worthy causes. As a community already spread thin to keep up with the demands of rapid growth, Chanhassen needs to prioritize where we will and where we won't spend taxpayers money. This is not an easy task. Our highest priority for funding is meeting the legal, contractual and mandated obligations we've already assumed. Just behind that is safeguarding the health and safety of our community, educating our children and building and maintaining the infrastructure we need to accommodate growth. The City of Chanhassen has a long standing tradition of supporting youth activities through our parks and athletic programs. We have already made a substantial commitment to youth hockey and ice facilities in our city. In the past two years alone Chanhassen has invested $500,000.00 on the construction of new hockey rinks and a warming house. These include two hockey/inline skating rinks at the Chanhassen Recreation Center, Bluff Creek Elementary School. One warming house, park building at the Recreation Center. One hockey inline skating rink, along with an expanded parking lot at North Lotus Lake Park. In total our City maintains 5 outdoor hockey rinks, 8 pleasure skating facilities, and 3 warming houses. As a City we invest approximately $45.00 per year to operate and maintain these ice facilities. It is the feeling of the City Council that Chanhassen has demonstrated strong support for hockey, as we have for many other athletic programs for our youth. Given the tight financial environment in which Chanhassen must operate, we are not comfortable with the proposal to contribute $120,000.00 towards this project. However, in the spirit of collaboration for providing a regional indoor ice arena for the residents of our community, we will commit to a $30,000.00 contribution to be paid over 5 years. This investment is contingent upon the following conditions being agreed to. Preferential ice access to prime time, 3:00 to 10:00 p.m. weekdays, 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. weekends, during hockey season. The first right to schedule prime time hours will include the Minnetonka Youth Hockey Association, MYHA. They will have the right to purchase a minimum of 100 prime time hours. These hours will be charged at a rate equal to the rate being afforded the Chaska Community Hockey Association. This MYHA agreement shall be valid for a minimum of 5 years. In addition, all Chanhassen residents will pay resident rates for all open skating hours in the new arena. And with that I conclude our answer to the request for the Chaska Hockey Association. So thank you all for coming and that is our commitment to you. Susie Blake: Do we have an opportunity to talk to you? 20 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: No. This is not a public hearing. We have already had one and we have had other times during the City Council meetings. Thank you. Susie Blake: ...were told that... Mayor Mancino: Excuse me. Pardon? Susie Blake: ... decision would be made until.., impression that we had an opportunity.., from a comment that was made by Steve Berquist on the Board that he was very disappointed that more people didn't talk when we had people here the other night and out of courtesy for the.., chose not to... by bringing up the same comments of everybody that was here so... We also have a petition of 150... in support... Mayor Mancino: Okay, number one. At the last Council meeting I did ask during the public hearing if there was anyone who wanted to come up in front of us. I didn't ask for someone, for people not to come up. We did take public hearing at that time. You're certainly welcome to come up with the 156 signatures and if, I'm fine if one or two of you do come up and make a few comments. That would be fine. Susie Blake: Thank you. My name is Susie Blake again, and I live at 8040 Hidden Circle. I'm a taxpayer in the City of Chanhassen. I happen to be a hockey parent and I'm also a member of the Association Board. And I do have a petition here of 156 signatures which includes approximately 10 people who couldn't read directions that it said Chan residents only and signed the petition as well. So you can take those out. The only point I want to make is I think from the response it seems to me that we're focusing this whole attention, that this is a hockey request. Sure, there happens to be 100 players or more, 100 families in Chanhassen that are current members of the Association and that makes up approximately 40% of the Association in Chaska. There are also, if I remember correctly from the other Board meeting, approximately 100 kids from the Minnetonka School District, but there happens to be, and I don't know if figures from the school district. Maybe this gentleman can help us, but there's a bigger issue here. This is also providing a phy ed opportunity for the school district of 112, which includes quite a few students that would benefit from this as well. And one of the things when people move to a community is they look for opportunities for their children and you know being able to provide a world class school includes some of those activities as well and being able to provide some activities. So the question I have for you is, you said in your response that you're currently spending $45,000.00 a year to maintain 5 hockey rinks and 8 pleasure skating rinks. There are 3 of those rinks that have warming houses. I would ask that the City Council reconsider how they are operating those rinks and maybe it would be in the best interest of those residents in the community to funnel or move some of that money from operating all of those outdoor rinks to be invested in an indoor rink because as most of you know with the weather here, it's great to say that we have 13 outdoor rinks, but how much time can we actually use those rinks so. Mayor Mancino: Too long I think. Susie Blake: So anyway, I have the petition to present to you and then I also ask that if you did look at this more from a hockey request, that you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. We are paying for the ice time that we do spend with the rink. It's not something that we're asking the City of Chan residents to pay for our time on the ice. We're all personally involved in the commitment of the ice and actually looking at my own commitment and I have three children of my own. To say that the City of Chan is going to invest $30,000.00 for however many residents we have, compared to what I've personally put in myself, is somewhat a slap in the face so I would just like to have you take a look at it and possibly redirect some 21 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 funds if you can if funding is an issue and also ask that maybe you be prepared with this many people in these two associations to be prepared to have to foot a bigger bill when we come to you for the third rink. So thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Appreciate your comments in bringing that forward. Are there a couple more people that would like to come up? David Zamjahn: Thank you for giving us an opportunity to address you. My name is David Zamjahn and I'm a resident of Chanhassen and have lived in Chanhassen for 11 years. Prior to that I lived in Chaska and am a long standing family background from Chaska. Early on I was on the Board for the Chanhassen Athletic Association. I've coached in Chanhassen for 11 years in soccer. My son does play hockey. I'm also in the business area of Chanhassen and one thing that I think we're all proud of in the business in Chanhassen is that we support our youth athletes. We sponsor their teams. I look around our business community and I'm very proud of all the people that sponsor those teams. I think the money that's invested, as Nancy was saying, is good, but it sounds like it's directed just at Chaska. I think as a community, that 45,000 is for the residents of Chanhassen, available to Chaska. And I have concern about your decision, as a businessman in Chanhassen. As a resident in Chanhassen. I'm concerned about two other communities that come forward without hesitancy to support our youth. And we have one other community, Chanhassen in District 112 that has all these constituent agreements to a very mediocre $30,000.00. I'm embarrassed as a businessman about your decision, and a resident. And I think a lot of the residents in Chanhassen would probably feel as strong as I do about this. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you for your comments. Beverly Erickson: Hi. My name is Beverly Erickson and I live at 520 Pineview Court and I am also a resident of Chanhassen. Have been so for 5 years and I applaud Susie's comments and also David's comments about how we feel about the decision that's been made. I'm also a board member with the hockey association and I work specifically with the Mini Mite program and the Mini Mite program encompasses children who are the age of 5 and 6 year olds. And for those of you who aren't familiar with the 5 and 6 year old program, it's a very growing program in our community. One of the things that you had talked about in your letter is the, you're aware of the, you're building the infrastructure for the community to accommodate the growth, and as the School District has pointed out, the growth in our community is much more than I think that we've ever anticipated, just because of what we've done as a community and how we've attracted our residents here. But what bothers me is that how are we building that infrastructure if we are not looking towards doing things for the residents that are coming into the community. And when we have a community like Victoria who is only 8% of our hockey association giving $30,000.00, and we as Chanhassen have 40% of the member of the hockey association and we also are giving $30,000.00, I don't understand the decision there so again I'd like for you guys to reconsider the decision. And I guess the final question is, how did you come up with the $30,000.00? Did you just pull the number or what was the decision in that $30,000.00? Mayor Mancino: Actually it was given by our other councilmember who isn't here tonight who thought it was an appropriate number. I can tell you that one of the reasons that Victoria, having talked to the Mayor there, came up with the $30,000.00 is that they don't have a Park and Rec Department at all. They have one hockey rink in their whole city. Therefore, they are relying more on other cities and using their resources and that was why they did give $30,000.00. We as Chanhassen on the other hand are building our own and have our own park and rec programs, as you know, and we have, as I just stated, have the 13 rinks and therefore we're building a program in and of our city. Victoria isn't ready to do that yet. 22 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Beverly Erickson: Now, you're building, we're building an indoor arena as a City? Mayor Mancino: No. We have built outdoor ones. We have been funding for the last so many years outdoor rinks. Beverly Erickson: Okay. When Minnetonka built their rinks, and a lot of this is focused on the fact that Chanhassen and Minnetonka, we have to look at both. Was there any support from Chanhassen with the Minnetonka arena? Mayor Mancino: I don't know. Beverly Erickson: Is that something we could find out as far as, I mean because that should be. Councilman Mason: The indoor facility? Beverly Erickson: Yes. Councilman Mason: Chanhassen didn't contribute. The City of Chanhassen didn't contribute any money to that. None whatsoever. Beverly Erickson: Didn't contribute, okay. Mayor Mancino: Nor do I know if they came. I have no idea. Do you know Mike if they came and asked. Councilman Mason: No. Beverly Erickson: So the $30,000.00 decision was based upon. Mayor Mancino: They did it as a school district or did they do it as a city? I mean was that an addition to the Minnetonka School District facility? Councilman Mason: I believe it was a joint, wasn't it a joint one. Councilman Senn: Minnetonka and Hopkins have done a lot of joint ones but that one I believe was not one of them. Hopkins did their own and so Minnetonka did their own. Councilman Mason: Minnetonka's was school and city as I recall and Todd's shaking his head yes. Mayor Mancino: So because of the constraints on our budget, that was what we felt we had to, available to give towards hockey. And additional. Beverly Erickson: And I hope that, and I'm sure that because Randy and Kevin have done a fantastic job with this, but I hope that they have outlined the implications that we will be facing as a community by not having this and how, as an association by not being able to, and again the focus is not strictly on the hockey association, even though I'm a strong supporter of it and I have two boys that are actively involved in it and I am actively involved in it. It's not just the hockey association. It's the community at large. And you know all the number of residents I've talked to support the program, support the issue, and I really would 23 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 like to have you reconsider the amount of support that you're giving and some of the restrictions that you have put on to the support also. Thanks. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else? Last person, please like to come in front of the council. Please state your views and make any comments you wish. Greg Hromatka: I'll just state quickly. My name is Greg Hromatka at 7580 Canyon Curve and just to take a note to all the people here on behalf of the ice arena. You've got 2 ½ sheets mostly directly towards the ice arena... I thought I'd point that out. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you all for coming and we'll move forward into the next agenda. SITE PLAN AMENDMENT FOR THE CHANHASSEN CINEMA~ BOB COPELAND. Kate Aanenson: This item is before you tonight because the applicant had requested some changes from the original approved site plan. The originally approved site plan is on the easel there, showing the different colors. The articulation to the building. When this project was originally approved there were six theaters. There's now eight so there's different exiting doors going out onto the alley. One of the things that we're trying to do with the project along that profile that's on the screen is to warm up the alley way going up towards the Timber Lounge so it'd be an inviting place. We do share parking.., buildings. As the project's come in, it's taken off some of the excitement of what we believe kind of made the building more interesting. We believe that the changes were substantial enough that we didn't feel comfortable signing off on them... We have made a recommendation that if you were to approve some of the material changes, that some of the design elements.., and lighting are to be brought back in... applicant more specifically the changes with you. I'd be happy to... Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff at this point? Councilman Senn: No. Councilman Mason: No. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Is the applicant here and would you like to address the City Council please? Please state your name and address. Bob Copeland: My name is Bob Copeland. I live at 14 Cooper Avenue in Edina. And before I actually get into the issues tonight, if you don't mind, I'd just like to take a minute or two and just bring you up to date on in general where we are on the project. I know that we have lived with it for a long time and you folks, maybe some of you even longer than I have. We have, the company that we have formed has purchased the property and that company is controlled by Ray Mithune, Jr. and myself, and Ray and I also own the Buffalo Cinema and contrary to some of the rumors around, we have absolutely nothing to do with the Chaska Cinema. Neither Ray nor I have anything to do with the Chaska Cinema. So we also have hired a new manager who's name is Liz Beard and Liz is starting to oversee our operation in Buffalo and when the Chanhassen Cinema comes on line she's going to oversee our personnel and our cleanliness for the new cinema. We applied for a building permit back in June of this year and we received limited permits to go ahead with some demolition work and some of the site work. And right now the issuance of the building permit is pending your approval tonight. We have commenced some of the construction work. We've done some demolition. We've done some of the site work. Some of the site utilities are in. Curb 24 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 and gutter is in. We've done a little bit of the foundation work related to the new entry at the southeast of the cinema. We plan to open in March if we can get our building permit and one of the features that we've added since the plans were started, as we're putting in four of the auditoriums are going to be state-of-the- art stadium seating, which will be like bleachers or risers. This is the latest thing in cinema or movie theater seating. And have much better views and sight lines for the screens. We are investing close to $3 million in this project. $540,000.00 of it is going to be reimbursed through the tax increment financing over the next 21 years. So nobody's more interested in the appearance and success of the cinema than we are. I'd like to just address the specific issues that staff has brought to your attention. The first one in their memo, that I believe you all have, is that we have found a way to eliminate the retaining wall, most of the retaining wall and the railing which is, or would have been at the elevated sidewalk. If you will recall, the elevated walkway on the south and east sides of the.., and at one time we had a retaining wall and a railing there. But we also had very little landscaping and we felt that by adding a sloped landscaped area there we could bring a lot of green to the front of the cinema and also it's been suggested that we put in flower beds. Some flower beds along in the landscaped areas which we are prepared to do. So we feel that it's an improvement. It's an enhancement from the design that we had before. Another issue that was brought to your attention was the back lit window. This plan originally called for a back lit window here above the entry and while we, we've had a lot of trouble dealing with that. It presents a structural problem in that we can't make holes.., these panels here that supports the pre-cast frame for this simulated window and have openings in it. So we eliminated the idea of a back lit window but the staff and others have made us aware of the fact that this is an important feature to some people and so what we can offer to do is add lighted panels that would be flush with the pre-cast that surrounds this simulated window so that it will give an effect to a backlit window. So we're willing to do that and try to be more consistent with the design that was submitted and approved originally. Another issue that's been raised is the exterior material of the building. When it was submitted originally it was labeled as efface material which is similar to stucco. And that would have been over a rigid insulation. And we've come up with a better material, and the material that we plan to use now is pre-cast concrete and did you bring those pictures by the way? Mayor Mancino: No, I didn't. I think Sharmin has them. Bob Copeland: What we're proposing to use now is a pre-cast material and I'll pass around some pictures of the actual panels. Keep in mind that, don't be concerned about the color. Those are, have some blotchiness to them and some unevenness in the colors and they're going to be stained so that that finish that you see there is not the one that, you know that's not the way it will look. But the pre-cast panels there can, you can see the actual pictures of them. We changed this and we think it's better for a handful of reasons. One is we're able to have a wider variation in the textures. We're going to have some parts of the panels are going to be smooth. Some parts are going to be a little bit rough and other parts are going to be quite rough. Our joints are better. We're able to have very distinct joints in this pre-cast panels whereas with efface your joints are not as distinct. This is a much more durable material. You can't pick at it or damage it. We were concerned about maybe children or something being in line here and kicking the efface material or picking at it and it can be damaged in that way. Efface can be but the pre-cast won't be. And our last reason for going to this material is that it can be erected in the cold weather whereas efface material is somewhat impractical to do in the colder weather. So we think it's a much better material. It's an improvement and in terms of the design characteristics, if it wasn't labeled on our plan and we didn't call it out as something different appearance wise, very few people would be able to tell the difference. Another issue that's been brought up was color. We are proposing that the colors that you see on this model for the building structure.., be the colors for the cinema. And now originally our architect had some gray colors in mind and we'll go back to the grays but we don't like that as much. We think that this is a warmer color. It's a little bit different from some of the other buildings that you see in town and we think 25 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 that's good. I should also point out that we do intend to have accent colors here, and the accent colors would come into play some of the street lighting that will be around the exterior and the ability to walk.., cornice. At the trim around the marquee. The lights will be on these sides here and the handrails that will be on the stairs. So it's not going to be all the one tone that you see here but we do intend to have, or we would prefer, let's put it that way, to have the sort of taupe and maybe vanilla colors that you see on this model as the basic building colors. But again we'll, if it's a big deal that it be gray, well we'll make it gray. The other issue that was brought up in the staff's memo is that we, well it doesn't even show up here but on one of the drawings it was proposed that there be some sign posters here for coming attractions and we think that that won't present the best appearance for the building and we propose to delete those. But obviously if there's a condition to approval, I mean we have to have those posters, we'll have posters. We just think that it will be more attractive without them. Last issue that the staff brought up was goose neck fixtures on the east side of the building. Actually we never proposed any goose neck fixtures on the east side of the building but we did propose some fixtures. And if the staff or people at the city would like to have goose neck fixtures, we'll have goose neck fixtures. We never, we weren't proposing a change there. I don't know exactly how it got into the memo that we were proposing a change but we're not. So we're enthusiastic about the design. We're enthusiastic about the project. We hope that the City still is. And we request that you approve the plans the way we submitted them, but we'll also propose that we'll submit detailed landscape plans, detailed signage plans, detailed lighting plans for the, for your approval or to whatever degree you want to look at them, and we'll submit specific color numbers for your approval also. Again, our desire would be colors similar to what you see on the model there. So we're not changing the lighting. We think we're keeping accents on the building. In fact we're thinking we're bringing more accents in by way of landscaping in the front. And with that I would be happy to answer any questions that you have. Councilman Engel: Did the handrail go in there? Bob Copeland: Well, we have handrails at the sidewalks... Mayor Mancino: But not on the boardwalk. Councilman Engel: On the boardwalk is what I'm talking about. Bob Copeland: Well here, no. We won't need one along here. But this might be a little bit misleading in that this model shows a, just a straight slope down here but in reality we're going to build what's been approved by the Building Inspector. We're going to come out here about 2 feet. Have just a slight slope on it and then come down. We have no need for a handrail on this elevated walkway area. We do have a few handrails down also along each side where there's a ramp. We have them where code's required. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you. Any other questions for Mr. Copeland at this time? Okay, thank you. Bob Copeland: You're welcome. Mayor Mancino: Todd, will you please go over the city participation in this particular building. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, Council. The HRA approximately 2-3 years ago agreed to enter into a private redevelopment agreement with the cinema group in providing them $540,000.00 worth of assistance and redevelopment of the old Instant Webb building. Bloomberg building. It has a variety of names. Into a 26 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 movie theater complex. That is increment back to the cinema people over a 21 year period, with interest as a pay as you go program. So if they do produce so much increment, we will then reimburse the developer for, as per the agreement. At the beginning we determined that the movie theater had about $540,000.00 worth of cost into the facade improvements, boardwalk and their pro-rated share of the parking lot and is how we came up with the $540,000.00 as to incentives back to that. I think Mr. Copeland would come in and tell you that the true costs out there are substantially higher than that. Those are statements that he's made to me. So with that if you have any other questions. Mayor Mancino: Yes. Was the purpose of the subsidy to get a quality of design or was it, the purpose was for the subsidy to make sure that we were paying the whole cost of it. Of the outside improvements. I mean didn't we expect to have some developer contribution to the outside? That we were not going to be paying the entire amount. Todd Gerhardt: Well Mr. Copeland will say that he is contributing to that outside amount. He is not, I don't think he's running his budget to the tune of $540,000.00 for outside and you know $2.5 million in the inside. But I'd have to have Mr. Copeland give you the numbers on that. He is going to have to provide receipts of actual cost for that construction at the time first payment is being made. Mayor Mancino: So again, what was the purpose for the HRA? Todd Gerhardt: Well the purpose kind of goes back to the Highway 5 corridor group and as the Highway 5 corridor group took numerous tours along Highway 5, they kept pinpointing the intersection of Market Boulevard and Highway 5 and the visibility of the bowling center, old Instant Webb, Bloomberg Companies area as one of the major eye sores of that corridor. And that this would be a priority one in trying to redevelop this area. With that we wanted to try to stay with the high quality redevelopment that we've started in the downtown area and that something that we will not have to go back for some time to look at again. Mayor Mancino: So we were hoping to get a higher quality than normally we would get? Todd Gerhardt: Typically, yeah. That's what you're doing. You also have to provide an incentive to somebody to look at redeveloping a site. You know typically would this development occur if we didn't provide the incentive? Clayton Johnson would say I could probably make as much money you know renting from us and putting warehouse businesses in there every other year with us chasing him telling him he can't do that, than he probably can by selling the building over to Mr. Copeland. And it's been our effort in downtown not to have those kinds of uses in the downtown and to relocate them in proper spots so. Mayor Mancino: Okay. The only thing I would ask councilmembers as they give comments is to please look at this as a whole complex. Just not one building. Who was the architect on this entire complex? Todd Gerhardt: Truman Howell was the original architect. I think Truman took it through the original site plan approval process and then with that when Mr. Copeland's group became interested and started to do the physical construction of the building, they opted to go with your in-house group. Correct Bob? Bob Copeland: Truman was the original architect on this and we hired him to do this. He also, Truman did this model. He did this design here too but we hired somebody else called JRP Architects to do the actual working drawings for us. 27 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Okay. Bob Copeland: We have a different architect on the inside. Mayor Mancino: Well I'm assuming there aren't any changes. Are these changes for cost reasons? Is this cheaper than the other, than what was drawn and we approved before? Bob Copeland: I would say overall, no... Mayor Mancino: Okay. Comments from council members. Councilman Senn: Before we do, point of clarification and Todd or Mike correct me if I'm wrong. This solely wasn't an HRA review before. Council reviewed this project also. Mayor Mancino: And the Planning Commission. Councilman Senn: And Planning Commission did and also in lieu of the dollars that were going into it and if my recollection's correct, the whole reason the Council endorsed the dollars going in was to enhance the, you know effectively the facia and it's presentation to predominantly Highway 5 you know and that open section of town. I mean that was the whole reason or justification, at least in the Council's eyes of supporting that. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Appreciate that, okay. I did see this on Friday. I saw it as an isolated building and it is, I've spent some time with it this weekend looking at it as a whole complex, and just very conceptually, Bob I like the original architecture. I think it went with the rest of the buildings. I think that as it was designed as a whole complex, it was very integrated, compatible with each other. 1, 2, 3 of the buildings, 4 of the buildings are face brick and two are the efface. There's a lot of demonstration or you know window detail. I like the columns that have much more of a relief on the original architecture and I like the columns that were underneath the marquee in the front. They added again a period piece to it that goes with the rest of the buildings. What else can I talk to? So again, I took what you had shown me on Friday morning and then looked at the whole complex and said, going with this new architecture, we would have to go back and look at everything else and have that almost redesigned because it's a very, very different feeling than the original plan that we, that I saw on the Planning Commission. But I'd like to hear some other viewpoints from Council members. Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: I guess a couple of comments. After hearing what Mr. Copeland had to say and after certainly taking a look at all the stuff in our pre-Council meetings, I certainly would be willing to take a look at the change with the berms and the hand rails, dependent on the landscaping. I mean depending on the plan there. I don't, personally I don't. Kate Aanenson: To give some feedback. Staff had also recommended that.., handrail kind of movement... it actually looked more inviting to look across this. The problem that we're having is Mr. Copeland, I mean we need to see more detail. That's part of the problem. There isn't the detail and color on the comer. There isn't the color for any light. We tried to keep the project moving. We gave him a permit to begin demolition. We felt uncomfortable at this point.., change without seeing it's effect. Street lighting, landscaping, that we couldn't approve it... the architecture. Now if we saw a complete set of plans, we saw the landscaping. 28 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: For the whole complex. Kate Aanenson: Maybe it would be palatable but at this point it's not all there. That's what you're getting back to...maybe it did soften up the building. Maybe it works but it's not there yet. Councilman Mason: Right. Right. And I guess that's maybe my difficulty with this tonight in that, I mean yeah. The berm and the rails were the first plan when we approved it but I don't think there's anyone here that's going to reject anything out of hand without being able to see something. But well, maybe. But personally. I mean, if it looks smoother. If it looks nicer. If it blends better. I'd just as soon see landscaping there as I would a berm quite honestly. I mean I think it would add. Mayor Mancino: A wall. Retaining wall. Councilman Mason: Or a wall, excuse me. I'm sorry. But yeah, these, and I don't know. The lighting and the window, well if it can't be done it can't be done but some of these other changes do seem a little drastic to me and I guess my concern is, and I share Kate's feelings is that I don't really see any detail here. And I want to get this going too so. Mayor Mancino: Michael, ifI could respond to a couple things that you said. First of all I think that there is something clean about not having the railing but if you look at the original design, the railing is very important because it is what connects all the different compatible architecture. It's that one railing that goes along the whole boardwalk so there is that connective feeling. Now if you took the retaining wall and put landscaping on it, you know and bermed it instead and saw a really good landscaping plan, that might work. My only question there is, maintaining it and the maintenance that goes with that after the first year and how well will it be maintained, etc. And so there I would need to make sure that there is some plan in place for annual maintenance and monies escrowed accordingly to keep it up. And it would also have to be though then on again, this is one complex, the rest of that berm that would go in front of all the other developments too. Because that's kind of how the retaining wall went. It was supposed to be a, you know a stone retaining wall in front. Councilman Engel: It was supposed to run along the, in front of the yellow and the red and dark tan building as well. That wall runs the whole length? Councilman Senn: It's an elevated walkway. Councilman Engel: Okay, an elevated walk along there. Mayor Mancino: Yes. That is a boardwalk next to the buildings. And the other thing we're missing is the sense of street scape on the boardwalk. There are no pots. There are no benches. Nothing that make it for people to want to walk on that boardwalk and to sit and, etc. I mean I think that was one of the reasons why the original had, again if you go to the Lagoon Theater, any other old time theater, they have the posters up in the nice glass frames. But anyway, I'll be quiet now. Councilman Engel: I like Mr. Copeland's idea regarding the window above the marquee and you say you've got a problem with the construction materials and putting that.., designed. Instead you had to work around where you put the lighting in the side panels. Do you get the same effect? Councilman Senn: That assumes you're going to change the construction materials. 29 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: No. Yeah, that's assuming. Councilman Engel: Go ahead, yeah. Bob Copeland: The reason we left it off the plans is because it's very difficult, nothing's impossible, but very difficult to... punch holes at this location and support these heavy pre-cast.., that form the frame for this window. However, it's come to our attention that this is a big deal to have this back lit window appearance and so we have, that's been pointed out to us. We have to figure out a way to put in some lighted panels without making holes, that would be out flush with this pre-cast frame. And I'm saying we'll do that. Councilman Engel: Yeah, I'm just looking for that. I think that's, I think it's a nice touch. That lighting effect above the marquee so your work.., sounds okay to me without having seen it. The boardwalk, I am concerned about keeping that rail as it connects the rest of those buildings. And I like the idea of the posters as well. It gives you that old, it gives you that period feel. And I'm just afraid when you take that out on that side, that's all gray, it begins to look a little bland along that wall. And the same thing with the detail on the slope, landscaping. I'd like to see something.., detail on it. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Well, I don't know. I suppose just take it issue by issue. I mean as far as the wall and the rail goes, I mean I'd be, I'm going to say strongly opposed to eliminating that from the project. Now, my mind might be changed with a lot of detail, but I'm just saying I'm going to say that's doubtful. The hill's landscaped I think are going to be a maintenance problem. They're going to be kids magnets in the first place, you know so whether the owner tries or doesn't try, I think it's going to be a difficult task at best. What we, you know a lot of what we were sticking our money into was effectively to accomplish tying this whole area and facade together and I guess I somewhat share your comments Nancy in terms of, you know I think that has a, that wall and that railing have a lot to do with tying you know this whole thing together. The backlit windows. I mean again, based on what's a known, again what we bought and what we approved, and again the lack of detail, I just, I have a hard time really figuring out if the proposed change would enhance it or not enhance it so I guess I don't know the answer to that. As far as the exterior goes, the coloration, I don't know. I'm not that hung up over whether we're talking about taupes and creams versus grays and whatever. I mean I think there needs to be color separation in the building. Okay now. Mayor Mancino: Now remember the building next to it is brick. Councilman Senn: No, I understand. And so in the context of what is next to it and the context of the overall colors, and we have kind of a grand plan that's been approved and we know it works together. The part that disturbs me about that is if we start changing it, you know we're going to change the whole plan and then how do we address the other ones coming in and those people can come before us and say, well this is what you already approved but it may in effect end up clashing with or not fitting in with what's next door to it. So again have we really accomplished anything? No. It seems we've stuck $545 in to tie a project together that may not want to tie together, I don't know. But if the colors, you know can be proven to tie together in a fashion, I mean I guess I'm just saying I'm not hung up over a particular color tone one way or the other. But I am, I do want to see some, I mean I don't want to see one bland color out there either. From an exterior finish standpoint, well I don't know. Personally I wasn't that hot on the finish that 30 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 we had in the first place. I'm less hot on the proposed change in finish. So I mean to me, it's just a step in the wrong direction. The sign area or the posters. Again, I don't know. The posters can certainly add some relief to the building. You know where they're put in and how they're put in. Again, there's a lot of detail that at least you know, from what we're looking at, I'm going to say it's real difficult to tell the impact of that one way or the other. With some more detail we might, that might be easier to evaluate. As far as detailed landscaping and detail furniture, detail lighting, detail light fixture, detail signage, that's a lot of detail I think we need at this point yet. It needs to be evaluated to you know, I don't know most of that I'm pretty comfortable with staff giving the, a good feeling from us on evaluating themselves but.., we tied a lot of again, facade dollars into creating some character down there and creating a certain feeling and a certain image and my general feeling is with these changes, we're departing from that. And you know, at the same time, as you all know, I'm kind of also on the opposite end of the spectrum. Kind of a big advocate well, if that's what they want to do, they have some rights to do it as long as they stay within our ordinance. And I think that's fine. But then we don't need to put $545,000.00 into facade improvements or enhancing facade improvements which was the whole purpose of the thing in the first place. So I think there's some decisions there that need to be made as to what's important. But the $545,000.00, at least in my mind, has bought us something we've agreed to buy and unless I see a real good reason to change it, or if I see some real good justification to change it, I just think it's kind of like water over the dam. Why should we be changing it at this point? Mayor Mancino: Well let's see if I've pulled people's thoughts together or not and add a few of my own. I think that the one area that Council members feel that they would be willing to look at would be the retaining wall, berm area but we'd need to see a very detailed landscaping plan of the berm area and how that would work. And again a Council member, stop me if there's a difference of opinion here. But I do feel that there was consensus around continuing having the hand rail and continuing that again on the entire complex, on the entire boardwalk which would pull everything together and be that one unifying factor. And obviously the berm will do that but it can have different landscape materials on it. The two, the fake window above the entrance to the theater for I think a couple of us who would be willing to look at the alternative, we'd need some more details on that. We'd need some drawings and how that works. We certainly want the effect of back lighting. We certainly want the detail of the window and the differences. What that would really look like. If it would really simulate a backlit window by doing what you have suggested. So we'd need to look at that a little further. The exterior of the building was approved with a stucco efface, or a stucco finish efface. Again the color is going to be in, that's dyed, right? It's not painted on, etc. Is that Kate? Bob Copeland: It's stained... Mayor Mancino: Okay. It's not injected into the outside material. Bob Copeland: No, it's a stain.., a stain that goes on like a paint... Mayor Mancino: Okay. I think that there was consensus with the Council members that we stick with the original approved finish which will also be used in another building in this complex. And number four, the sign area where the poster was proposed to be kept. We'd like to see that kept and more detail around that. I'd also like to see some, or have staff look at and approve the detail around the columns in the original drawings also. The relief that they will give. Nobody really responded to the goose neck light fixtures. Is there a consensus? Councilman Senn: Well we don't have a lighting plan or lighting detail. 31 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: So just when we see that, okay. Does that pretty well pull it together for Council members? Councilman Senn: Well besides lighting plan, lighting detail, I think we need landscaping. I think we need furniture. Mayor Mancino: Streetscape furniture. Councilman Senn: Streetscape types of things. I think we still need, you know I think we need signage because that's the only way, at least in my mind we're going to tie in that issue of the poster frames and that sort of thing. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: Well I wonder if in lieu of all of this, to give Mr. Copeland a chance to think about things too perhaps a little bit. I would just as soon table this for a couple of weeks until we can get some more detail. Mayor Mancino: Get these details back. Councilman Mason: Yeah. Because I'm not, you made some comments about consensus and I'm not convinced that consensus is there on a couple of the issues. Mayor Mancino: Oh, well then speak to that. Councilman Mason: Well, I don't, while as I understand the concern for the hand rail all the way around, I think if I can see, if I could see a plan that would show me that looks just as nice without it, I certainly would consider it. Mayor Mancino: Well there just won't be anything there, yeah. Councilman Mason: Well, right. But I'm not, I think I could argue just as effectively. Mayor Mancino: If there were bushes up there or something. Councilman Mason: Having that one, I mean maybe then without the hand rail there, that becomes a focal point instead of a unifying feature around it so I hesitate a little bit on some of that. But I would have, there's no way I could vote for the recommendation as it stands, but I certainly would vote to table to get some more detail to make a more educated decision on the changes that Mr. Copeland would like to make. Mayor Mancino: And I will add to that and say, I'm only willing to if some of the things that are taken off of this, like a hand rail, be shown how the rest of the complex will look. I mean it's got to apply to everything because this whole. Councilman Mason: What do you mean it's got to apply to everything? 32 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Well the whole design of this complex was taken with every single building in mind so if you take it off, I want to see how that plays against the rest of the complex. That's all I'm saying. I mean if we're going to go in and start redesigning each individual building now, and spending our time here, we've already approved something. We've already gone through this. Councilman Mason: Look, if we want to throw that kind of stuff out, every time excuse me. Every time I reel against a variance, people tell me you've got to take things individually so you can't have it both ways. Now I mean, I hope I'm not getting too testy here but you know I sit up here standing almost 100% against variances and I get told almost 100% of the time, well yeah. We can give a variance there but you know the guy next door is an individual circumstance so you know, just because we gave a variance here, you know we're not talking about variances. If there are some legitimate changes that this whole Council agrees can be made, fine. If this whole Council says they can't be, that's fine too. Mayor Mancino: Okay. I'm just saying I want to see how it ties in with everything else. Councilman Mason: Sure, no problem. No problem. Mayor Mancino: The only other thing that I saw a difference in, Mr. Copeland was the exit doors and those are different than what's on the drawing too. The ones in the original drawing, there was more, again architectural detail around the doors. They again are on a boardwalk, especially on one side where one of the drawings shows an overhead, I don't know. It's not a marquee but it's something. Councilman Senn: A cornice. Mayor Mancino: A cornice over the doors. The other thing is the original drawings had backlit on some of the cornice areas. There's also, not only back lighting in the window area but there is some back lighting in the, under the cornices. So I'm assuming those will still be there too. So may I have a motion please. Councilman Mason: I will move to table this until the next Council meeting to give Mr. Copeland the time to provide a little more detail to the changes he'd like to make. Contingent upon your request to see how it fits with the whole. Councilman Engel: I'll second that. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Engel seconded to table the site plan amendment for the Chanhassen Cinema to the next Council meeting contingent upon the changes being made to the cinema being shown with the entire complex. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Mancino: Are there any other issues or clarity that staff or Mr. Copeland, that you need prior to coming back and what we'd like to see? Okay, thank you. REVIEW GOALS-LIVABLE COMMUNITIES ACT~ PLANNING DIRECTOR. Kate Aanenson: Thank you .... when we signed on with the Livable Communities Act... the goals. Renegotiate the goals in 2 years. That time frame comes to an end on November 15th. Since we did the goal, staff, with the approval of City Council, has guided those areas of the city that were either undesignated or were inappropriately zoned in a holding zone or the like so the future land uses of the city have been determined. In the process of doing that it made it a lot easier to go back and re-evaluate where 33 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 we were as far as data on whether we meet these goals. Included in the packet we put the original goals that were signed and the proposed new goals. Attached with that, we've documented where we are as far as what we did in 1990. '91 where we were. It's a breakdown of single family ownership, rental. Where we are to date and where we believe we're going. We've broken that down by what's currently in the MUSA line. What's outside the MUSA. We've even tried to break it down based on what we believe we'll be showing you with the comprehensive plan update. Kind of a strategy for bringing land into the MUSA area. It's pretty well documented and we think, we're pretty confident in our numbers. Obviously you can't always predict a market but based on current trends, and that's the best information that we have, where we're going. We know the markets out there changing. We've documented that in here... Also included in the packet is a summary of the 1995-96 and where we are...as far as 1997. Just to refresh your memory, back in 1995 was the first year ever in the history of the city, we did more attached housing than we did single family detached. By 262 non-traditional detached, and 216 traditional single family detached in 1995. That was the first year, first time ever in the history. In 1996, significant change. We did 170 single family detached and only 37. We based that anomaly on the fact that all those units were taken out of the market. We had projects that weren't on line yet. As a matter of fact a lot of the projects were still haven't been brought to market. Right now where we are processing a lot of non-traditional single family detached. Walnut Grove and Autumn Ridge, which is now underway. Those permits are moving faster. As we've told you before, the larger home market is slowing down. Those in the upper price range are slowing down.., if we can get something under $200,000.00, that seems to move a lot faster. I believe we indicated to you before that all 76 permits out on North Bay, which is considered single family detached, even though it's... 5,000 square foot lots, all 75 of those permits were pulled this year. So that's reflected in single family. If you look at where the price range, the average price range are, you can see the price, average single family price, how that's going down, skewed by the fact that those homes, those 76 homes, there's a large percentage if you look at what we've done as far as single family, is in a more affordable price range. So while it looks like it's, the average home price is dropping, it's... We're pretty confident in what we're projecting here again based on current trends and...to believe that while we will always be predominantly single family detached housing, what we're going to see a lot more of different alternative housing. We are very confident we're going to meet our life cycle goals. We're not recommending changing that 34% not.., single family. To meet that. The goal that we are recommending changes is the owner/renter mix. We had.., based on what we've looked at here, unless there's some other.., it'd be very difficult to try to... and that's, we put some assumption in here. We'd have to double what's out there right now as far as rental. 1,400. We'd have to double that in the next... We're not sure that we can bring another 1,400 on... IF we do another senior housing project in Villages on the Pond, which we haven't counted into this yet, and then bringing in the southern area. Something with transit. We talked about meeting another mixed project. Maybe on the Hidden Valley site. I don't think realistically we can get another 1,400 rental.., so what that did is, we changed the owner renter mix and then that also affected what we put down for our goals as far as affordability because we're not having any affordability.., on ownership down 30% also... That's based on current market trends. If you look at what we put in the summary, the last few projects that we've done, we've been very successful. If you look at Walnut Grove. We had 52% affordability. North Bay, 46. Autumn Ridge, 59% affordability... Again those are more PUD mixed... What's hurting us is that we've got so many built in subdivisions that have already been approved, single family large lot that's already, that's skewing our numbers because it's such, single family detached.., out there right now. It's going to take a lot of the other type product to change the number ratio, if that makes sense. We have a lot of stock out there in single family, and we're going to still see some more coming on line that have already been designated. Then we also have some multi-family that's sitting out there that may never come in that we had counted on for... That's Eckankar which is right close to downtown.., being in close proximity to downtown. And the Gorra property which also had a high density designation. What the timing of that would be...those are significant numbers as far as dwelling units. 34 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 So with that we are recommending a change to, in those numbers for the housing.., staff recommends supporting six goals. Principals and these are pretty much straight forward that we have in our comprehensive plan, the housing element. But it does take a resolution approval by the City Council and we're recommending it. I'd be happy to answer any. Mayor Mancino: Any questions for staff? Councilman Senn: I've got a couple, if nobody else does. Kate, going back on I guess the Livable Communities Goals Analysis. This one here. Mayor Mancino: Which page number are you on? Councilman Senn: There's no page numbers so I think it's the one on the back of the resolution. AT the top it says Livable Communities Goals Analysis. Dated 10-22-97. Mayor Mancino: Oh, thank you. Councilman Senn: If you look at effectively the trends between 1990 and 1996, we went from roughly 3,600 ownership units to 5,600 ownership units, but in that increase of 2,000 units, effectively 300 of them were affordable. Which is roughly around, what is that? That's 6 or 7. 6%, 7%, something like that. Or no, it'd be more than that. 300 out of 2,000 would be a little over 10%, right? Councilman Engel: Yep. Councilman Senn: But so, I mean pretty small numbers and if you look at the rental, we've gone from 637 units to 702 units. And affordable wise we've gone from 280 to 319, there but just in terms of the rental. I mean effectively all we've done is produced about what, 60 new rental units? Kate Aanenson: 65. Senior housing. Councilman Senn: Okay, and that was to be my next question. I assume that's the senior project. And okay. And those are, I mean are those truly affordable housing units or are they affordable housing units because of the senior subsidies attached to them? Kate Aanenson: There is in there a number of those are affordable... 5 of those 65 units that meet the criteria by the Met Council... There's other assistance that we're not counting in here that we're providing that we're getting credit for and that's the fact... Councilman Senn: Because the MET Council doesn't care how we get there, does it? Kate Aanenson: Well you get credit for all those things...that's under the goals. But we're also getting credit for, right downtown the apartment building that used assisted housing. Tax credit. All those things that we do... block grant money went towards helping... All of those things.., affordable housing. So you're right on the numbers here but if you look at what's happened on '95 and '96 and.., find out what the goals... Councilman Senn: Well no, I understand but I mean like everything else, we're betting on the come. I mean we don't know whether those 300 units are going to be built or not yet so. All I'm trying to get at is 35 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 if you take effectively what's happened over the last 6 years and even throw in the additional year at this point, I mean there's been really no additional progress. Kate Aanenson: Well I wouldn't say that though because you're taking... 1995 was the first year we did more rental than affordable so I think you have to step back. Throw out '90, '91, '92, '93 and '94 because that was pretty much weighted single family. Councilman Senn: Okay, I mean let's throw out '90 to '95 and my guess is, even if you throw out '90 to '95, the change in the numbers here we're affecting on whether it's ownership or rental has been predominantly affected between '95 and '97, correct? Kate Aanenson: Right. Councilman Senn: I mean obviously, I'm sorry. I was taking that as a given. I mean I'm not trying to put a lot of weight on '90 to '95. They're like non-existent years as it relates to this. It kind of clutters up the data but I mean if you take these changes that have occurred between '95 and '97 and relative. Mayor Mancino: So we made a 10% increase. Councilman Senn: You know the relative scope of things in terms of what we're trying to do, okay. It's over a couple year period you sit there and you say well, you know. That 10% increase may or may not seem bad, but then when you compare it overall to the goals, are we ever going to get there? Mayor Mancino: We're going to try. Kate Aanenson: ... I think we're going in the right direction. The reason 1990 is in there, that's the year that Met Council based our... The numbers that are on the regional city benchmark, city index. Those are based, as a general rule, based on the.., census data that's in there. So as we explained before, if you look at this as any snapshot in time, you're going to move further or closer to those goals, depending on where the market is... That's why goals are set up to, as stated at the beginning, to work towards that... We are going to move, depending on what's moving in the marketplace.., couple years to bring on... accomplished, based on our land use plan, and that's what this all comes back to. Based on what we've got guided for the city, and there's going to need some things we're going to have to do where we've got some.., and we've got 50%. We are creative when we have those opportunities. Councilman Senn: Well I assume that the, I mean I assume all of this 2 year reporting now is going to be consolidated and effectively put in some report back to the legislature. I mean do you have a feel for where, I mean the other cities, you know or third tier suburbs sit on this? I mean it'd be nice to be in a proactive position on that again rather than a reactive position because I mean if the picture isn't showing any progress, I think you're going to have one situation or even marginal progress. You're going to see one situation at the legislature versus, you know what I'm saying. I mean there's going to be a definite movement afoot to, how would I say it, revisit. You know do you accomplish it and how do you put the teeth into accomplishing it and I just think it would be nice to know that ahead of time if that's going to be something we're faced with and again be proactive to it rather than reactive to it. Because last time we were quite honestly all caught kind of short, you know, being in the reactive mode on it. It ended up coming out okay luckily, you know, but again I think the effort's going to be a lot more concentrated this time now given data, especially since one of the major proponents of it is a very data based person, I think would be a. 36 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Kate Aanenson: Well we used to give a report in every year. I could call the Met Council and they could give a copy of the report to other communities... It's not just the numbers. It's the other things that we do to assist affordable housing so... Councilman Senn: No, I understand that and I understand how that may impact what the Met Council. I guess the point I'm trying to make is I'm not sure that's going to have that big an impact when it goes to the legislature. Kate Aanenson: That's the report that goes to the legislature, right. And whether or not they feel... Councilman Senn: That's going to be more empirical. Mayor Mancino: Well I like having the line in, looking at it. Renegotiating it, whatever you want to call it. Looking at in two years again to say how have we done. You know how have the market forces changed in our area. I mean just by looking at the new construction costs of a single family detached house is $163,000.00 compared to last year, $200,000.00, that's a huge difference. I mean even though 76 of those were. Kate Aanenson: ...but we are... Mayor Mancino: But it does tell you, I mean that's a huge number difference. The other cost that has come down or value difference is even the single family attached that's gone from $129 to $121. So and land costs aren't coming down. Councilman Senn: And there's positives and negatives with that whole argument too. Mayor Mancino: Yes, there are positives and negatives to that. Councilman Senn: Tax base. Mayor Mancino: Yep. Yep. Any other comments? Questions from staff? One other question. Kate, on the matrix under housing goals agreement on page 3. City index. Does that mean where we are right now? Okay. Kate Aanenson: Again, that's 1990 data. There are a few that are. Mayor Mancino: Can we upgrade that? Kate Aanenson: Well that's what's going to measure us back against. Where we were in 1990. That's one other thing. You have to look at the fact that we're going to bolster that and.., as what's happening in the marketplace. For example we're getting away from the rental, there's no ifs, ands or but about it. As we continue to add more single family, the ratio of rentals is going to be a problem. Substantial amount of single family and not the same ratio. Mayor Mancino: You can't change the marketplace. 37 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Kate Aanenson: Right, and that's what I'm saying. That's why we reflect the change. Right. Other forces that are going to have to be brought to bear. So I think if you want to renegotiate after 2 years, I'd be comfortable with that based on the fact that we're updating our comprehensive plan. We might just be tweaking it... Mayor Mancino: Sure. I think it's good for us to look at and make sure we're on track or where we're not on track. May I have a motion? Councilman Mason: Yes. I will move. Councilman Senn: On what? Oh, are we doing something? Mayor Mancino: Yes, we need to have a motion to go ahead. Councilman Mason: I will move approval of the 1997 Livable Communities Act with the changes as proposed in the staff report. Councilman Engel: Second. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the 1997 Livable Communities Act with the changes proposed in the staff report. All voted in favor and the motion carried. DISCUSSION OF DOWNTOWN HISTORIC DISTRICT. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. The purpose of bringing this before you tonight is several. One, I wanted you just to kind of review the elements of the document. Kind of the boundaries that I established. The scoping of the document, and then review with you the procedure I'd like to take with it. And this should really go back to the Planning Commission for their review if they could, and have a public hearing and then be brought back before you .... kind of go through the document itself. This came about based on the, being precipitated by St. Hubert's moving and the change, possible change in use of the old St. Hubert's building. And it kind of changes the character of the neighborhood with the removal of the old Paulys/ Pony/Pryzmus site so with that Council wanted to look at what kind of this being the historic area. The centennial. We moved the railroad depot down there. Should we look at some architectural standards? So based on that we tried to develop a study area.., really this is the core that's down there and try to label the uses that are down there. Give the existing, kind of the character to the area. There's a couple of documents that come into play with this. One was the Vision 2002. Some of you may have been involved in the process that kind of talked about what we're trying to do with the downtown and focus on this as the historic area of the city and what that means as far as the community's culture and how do we maintain that. Whether it's architecture or types of uses that you want to allow in that district. Some of the designs that you want to do to maintain that. Proximity to the street. Some of the same things we're trying to do in the downtown corridor itself. Also the comprehensive plan speaks to this area. The fact that we should try to preserve the structures. While there isn't a lot of architectural significance, really the ones would be the Village Hall and the Old St. Hubert's. The rest of them.., have historic significance based on the fact of use of the building itself. And we do have better pictures of photo copies didn't go the greatest job on that but we have a pictorial essay of all the buildings that are down there just to give you an idea, kind of give you a flavor of design of the buildings themselves. What's down there. Starting on page 4, just try to go through the existing uses that are down there.., future land uses and some possible alternatives. Again this is something I want the Planning Commission to go through. I know.., park and rec desires for some open 38 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 space down... The Planning Commission may have some different concerns so we'll kind of shift through that part of the hearing process and come back to you with more specific alternatives on the different designs. Such as the Colonial Center. We talked about that being an extension of the Medical Arts facility and moving that building forward. St. Hubert's, as you're aware, has several different opportunities, whether it retain a private religious school or even we've heard talk of maybe being senior housing facility. And also.., introduce more residential property on the Schlenk property which that's guided for. And then the old Klingelhutz building down there which is historic in the fact that the date of the building, but if that was to go away, what should be the use on that and could that be something architecturally significant. Again, we talked about the Pony/Pauly/Pryzmus site. Whether or not we want to form that comer.., or maybe a pocket park and how useful that would be and how that should be presented. And then also I included the original.., we've had a lot of requests for that to be commercial and the staff's position on that. Then also I just kind of gave a brief description of some designs that could be... recommendations that the Planning Commission wanted to do like an overlay or if they saw architectural. Maybe it's just some certain designs that they want to put in. To add to the building that would go with the area remodeling because St. Hubert's wouldn't change. What would we want architecturally to be reflected on that building? Then I just included some different design ideas on the last pages like the residential, the Schlenk property. I think that'd be really, we talked about that being senior housing.., cemetery. That would be nice. We want to maintain, we've got some nice old housing stock at that end of the city. Mayor Mancino: Senior housing proximity to the cemetery. Councilman Senn: I can tell you, I've already been through that argument once. Kate Aanenson: Well we thought it'd be nice to keep the residential character and not introduce.., so it's close to downtown and it makes sense. And also just to show you some other pictures of street furniture, landscaping and how that works in a downtown area. Councilman Senn: Cemeteries and mortuaries. You don't try to put senior housing close to them. Kate Aanenson: So with that I guess I'd like to mm it back to the Planning Commission unless you want something else further studied or if you had some other concerns that you would like.., relayed back to the Planning Commission for them to study or if you wanted to expand the scope of the district, or something like that. Councilman Senn: So what are you looking for us to do? I mean give. Kate Aanenson: One, if you wanted anything additional studied, your direction to the Planning Commission. If you feel like the size of the district is adequate or if you wanted that expanded... And then if you were in concurrence that it should go back to the Planning Commission to go through the process there. I guess that's what I'm looking for .... before we start the process... Councilman Senn: So let me just clarify. This is the outline for the process to go through? Kate Aanenson: Right. Councilman Senn: Right. So the intention of this plan was not to try to reach closure or recommendation on anything. It was simply to. 39 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Kate Aanenson: Yes. Yes. This is going to become a planning document but to do that you need to hold a public hearing and a draft to approve. To do that you go through the Planning Commission. Councilman Senn: Okay. I thought I was hearing two different things there. So okay. So if I'm understanding correctly then, the purpose of this document then right now is to create a plan. Kate Aanenson: Right. And what I'm saying, this is the format we're laying out. What I'm asking you for, is this meeting what your expectations were or is there something else you wanted to study. Did you have concerns, do you want to add additional parcels. Are you concerned about that something was missed that you wanted studied. A specific uses that you were concerned about. Each property have been identified for different uses. If you have concerns with any of them. Councilman Senn: No, I understand but normally in a planning document you reach, you know some kind of closure in terms of where you're at from a recommendation standpoint and. Mayor Mancino: Oh, the recommendation's too broad for you at this point? Councilman Senn: Well I mean yeah. What's happening to me is as I read through this and read the recommendations, or I guess as I read through them I viewed them as discussion items. I didn't view them as recommendations. I viewed that they lacked any closure. You know a good example, the St. Hubert's School and Church. To simply say that housing is a potential land use that would fit the site. I mean to me we should, this is our opportunity and we told them to wait while we looked at it. We should be telling them okay. If you don't sell it you know effectively as a church again, here's how we view the site being used. I think we ought to be very specific about that. Not very broad and general about that, okay. Mayor Mancino: So I'm assuming that it's going back to the Planning Commission for a specific recommendation and then will come in front of the Council for a specific, to either yes to that specific recommendation or no. Councilman Senn: But I mean not just that. I mean I want them to go through, I mean to me I don't know. I just kind of read through this, Colonial Center I mean, well I mean yeah. So okay, Medical Arts building's looking to expand there. Well I mean, fine. If they're looking to expand there but I mean I would look at this at this point, changing a whole different set of architectural guidelines than we used on the first one or two of those things and tie that back into the architectural elements and do it but I just, I'm not getting any kind of a tie or a sense that way, Country Clean. Nothing's happened on it. Kate Aanenson: I can give you an update on that. There's some EPA problems.., getting that resolved. What I tried to do is give a point of jumping off point for the Planning Commission to take that. They'll come back with specifics. If you want them to look at an ordinance, they may come back with an overlay district ordinance. We'll draft that. This is kind of a jumping off point to give you the background... Councilman Senn: Well I mean if they're going to recommend something to us, I'd just as soon, I suppose if they want to give us discussion items that's fine. Then let's not send it back to the Planning Commission. Let's sit down and make some decisions on uses. But I mean I'd much prefer it to go back to the Planning Commission and have the Planning Commission specifically kind of take the discussion to an end point, to a conclusion and give us a definitive recommendation on land uses, you know specific uses as it relates to each one of these things. I don't think they've done that. Now I don't know. 40 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: No, it hasn't been to the Planning Commission yet. Kate Aanenson: That's the process we're laying out. Councilman Senn: Okay. Kate Aanenson: I'm giving it to you first to say, is there something that's not in here that you want them to look at. It hasn't even gone to the Planning Commission. They haven't seen it. Councilman Senn: Why haven't we. Councilman Mason: You made the mistake in giving it to us in the first place. See I wondered when I saw this, I thought. Mayor Mancino: I wanted to see where we were in the historic district. What had happened. To check in with us. Councilman Senn: Well I mean my sense is we've gone. Mayor Mancino: It's my fault. I'll take it. Councilman Senn: Okay, you take it. It's been months and months and months and it seems like we're nowhere. And we promised these people that we were going to take a hard look at this stuff and establish some direction and get back to them. I mean I hope we're not looking at 6 months more you know to do that. I mean I really kind of expected to be that point by now. Mayor Mancino: Oh you wanted to see it further along is what you're obviously saying. Councilman Senn: Yeah, much more. Much more. Mayor Mancino: Kate, what's your timing on it at this point? I mean it's not like we have a lot of people here waiting but. Kate Aanenson: Well there are people that are interested and want to make sure they're in the process... At the next, not the November, November 17th Planning Commission. Mayor Mancino: 19th? Kate Aanenson: 17th. Mayor Mancino: 17th, is that when it is? MM: 17th is a Monday. Kate Aanenson: 19th. Mayor Mancino: 19th. I know that date. 41 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Kate Aanenson: For a discussion item. Mayor Mancino: So we probably won't get it until some time in December or January it will come back. So the next 2 or 3 months. Councilman Senn: I mean other comments because I don't want to lose. Mayor Mancino: I was going to say why don't you add some comments. Councilman Senn: I don't want to lose the opportunity. The Schlenk property you took kind of where I expected these all to go. I mean it brings it down to a conclusion and you know kind of says okay. I mean it should be townhomes. It should be two story. You know and here's the way it should be developed, etc. I mean that's kind the closure I'd like to see on each one of these. The old church, the old Village Hall. I think we need to tie that into the issue and I'm not sure that's something the Planning Commission's going to be able to deal with but I mean we need to tie that into the issue over investment and ownership and community use and all that sort of thing. I don't know. I mean I'm not sure. Mayor Mancino: But I think the Planning Commission would have some good recommendations as far as community use. I think that would be a good idea. Councilman Senn: But I mean again, I think that's the way the direction needs to go. Mayor Mancino: So a design overlay district and also community use as part of that design overlay district. Councilman Senn: So those types of things. Mayor Mancino: I would also like to see conceptually, and it would probably be in the, what's it called, the cleaners area. Colonial Square. How the Planning Commission would look at that as retail down below and housing up above. And having specific and different architectural design standards than what, than may be different a little west of that area. And again pulling it forward. And I would also like to see the St. Hubert's. Kate, I don't know market wise with St. Hubert's. I'd like to see some residential, multi- family in there. I'm not sure that we as a city or the Carver County HRA or whatever has the ability to meet all of our, you know would have the ability to meet a housing need there. Kate Aanenson: The other thing that I pointed out too is the issue with the old, old St. Hubert's. The steeple and what development... Mayor Mancino: And the other thing I'd like the Planning Commission to look at is maybe not making that entire Pauly/Pryzmus area a park but maybe part of it to add to the existing common areas and again making that office/retail that was also suggested in the 2002 plan. Kate Aanenson: That was the staff's. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, adding to it. Kate Aanenson: I'm trying to get some feedback without over... 42 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: Well I think the sky's the limit. They just need to push the ideas and come forward with them, but at the same time like for example on the St. Hubert's, the old St. Hubert's site. If it's not resold for the institutional use, I'm hoping that in their process they'll have a real down and dirty conversation with the neighborhood around there. Kate Aanenson: Right, and that's another issue. Councilman Senn: In coming up with that. I mean I don't want it developed in a vacuum at the same time just trying to orientate effectively towards 78th or downtown. I mean I think there's a major consideration there with the residences around there and how they you know... Kate Aanenson: ... cleaners and wanted to expand it. The home behind the old St. Hubert's, there was talk about whoever bought that property, what happens to the character. How that changes so that's why I was saying the scope of how you look at that because. Mayor Mancino: I think that would be a good idea. I think that's a very good point. Councilman Senn: But I mean again, I do want to remind you when we went through this discussion before we asked everybody for 6 months to do this. Mayor Mancino: And we're about there. We're getting there. Councilman Senn: You'd better mm on the after burners. Mayor Mancino: We've had a lot of things coming to the front burner I hate to say it. Councilman Mason, any other? Councilman Mason: Interested to see what they come up with. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: I'll wait and see what they come up with. Mayor Mancino: We'll put the weight of the world on your shoulders. So we don't need to make any formal action. Thank you for updating us and telling us where you are and where you're going and when we're going to see it again and some of us may even come to the Planning Commission meeting and listen. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Mancino: The next item is Council Presentations. Does anybody want to get up and make a presentation? Okay. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: Todd Gerhardt: I have one on the Triax. I handed out, regarding that. Some direction or agreement on settlement of outage credit back to the residents and a list that was submitted to the City Council this past month. 43 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry, and what do you want us to do? Todd Gerhardt: Well there was, I think they were providing a 75% credit, ifI remember right. And we felt that it should be more of a 100% credit over that three month period. Councilman Senn: No. I think their, I don't know. Maybe something's happened since we last visited with them on it but when we last visited with them, the credit they were offering was a one month credit of I'm going to say no more than 20%. I mean I thought it was in the 10% to 20% type of range. Offofa one month bill and then we had, we took our list basically from the neighborhoods involved and figured on the three months that it was closer to 25, 50 and 25% in terms of the outages. So we were looking at 100% credit effectively over a one month period. More or less meaning that 50, 25, 25 out of three months. But the other thing was that they'd come back in only with a partial list of affected areas which we asked them to broaden to include the other areas and mentioned what the other areas were and they were supposed to kind of go back and do that. I don't think they've ever done that. We did get their complaint, you know list which would kind of be the verification you know of all that but I'm not sure any of us want to take our time, I'm going to say to go through and verify all that. I mean they should be able to punch those areas out and also given the comments we gave them at that last meeting about what the additional areas were, I'm assuming they should be able to kind of come back and do that at this point, right? Todd Gerhardt: His comments on the areas is that his list stands and he said that you had brought up that there were other affected areas that you knew for a fact and his. Councilman Senn: Well they left in their first list, they left out the entire east side. I mean they had nothing from the east side at all. The only thing that they had on their initial list, if I remember right, was Lake Susan Hills. Mayor Mancino: I can't remember. Councilman Senn: I'm trying to remember. The one out by Galpin. Todd Gerhardt: Charles' neighborhood, Lake Susan Hills, Chanhassen Hills. Councilman Senn: Chanhassen Hills. That was the other one I was trying to think of. Todd Gerhardt: Areas that were most affected. Councilman Senn: Yeah. But the areas they've identified as most affected were the ones that were predominantly affected, or at least they were telling us were affected predominantly by that, by the Powers construction. And the Village on the Ponds construction. Todd Gerhardt: Correct. The outages that occurred. Councilman Senn: But at the same time they admitted that they had the big problem on the east side which is where there was an equal number of outages due to that, if I can remember what his term was of that thing that they replaced that affected the entire area. And that's kind of when we said we should be including those areas too. So I mean they're not, I mean you haven't gotten anything more from them at this point? 44 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Todd Gerhardt: No. It was the 20, you know the 20, 25% credit dispute and I didn't know that we were trying to look at more of a 100%. Councilman Senn: Well we said we'd take their proposal and then we'd counter it but they were supposed to kind of, I thought give us more information to do that. Mayor Mancino: So Todd, what's their proposal right now? I'm sorry, I don't have the sheet. I'm not sure what happened to it. Their proposal is what? Todd Gerhardt: Basically, the way I understand it, he's got 25% credit for one months worth of service to those list of names that were provided at the last meeting, is the way I understand it. Mayor Mancino: Okay, at the last meeting, okay. Todd Gerhardt: Well, at the last meeting that they were here, which was in September 9th I think. Councilman Senn: Can we spend 15 minutes on this at the next work session and just bring those, bring that stuff in so we have it in front of us. The only other thing I think the Council should be aware of, because I've heard from several people is that the Triax's effort toward customer relations or services seems to be going kind of even worse rather than better. Mayor Mancino: In what way? Councilman Senn: A number of people have now received disconnect notices. In fact three disconnect notices, even though they've written letters to Triax, you know effectively complaining about this service outages and asking for adjustments. Mayor Mancino: So does that mean that they haven't paid their bill so that Triax has disconnected. Councilman Senn: Haven't paid their bills or portions of their bills and they've written letters, you know asking for adjustments and that sort of thing and they haven't heard any responses to the letters. They haven't heard any responses from customer service representatives. All they've received is disconnect notices. Mayor Mancino: You've gotten about three phone calls on that? Because I haven't gotten any more, actually Todd's probably gotten them. I haven't gotten any more phone calls about people having bad service. Councilman Senn: No, no. And don't take me wrong. Mayor Mancino: So you haven't gotten any of those? Councilman Senn: No calls as it relates to outages. Those problems seem to finally be taken care of. But I'm just saying they were supposed to follow up. Mayor Mancino: It seems like they're not. 45 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Todd Gerhardt: I haven't received any of the disconnect notices or not. No response to, I didn't get a letter but I get the 1-800 number is a continued complaint that it's difficult to get through. Mayor Mancino: Still difficult to get through. Councilman Senn: Are you still getting that? Todd Gerhardt: Oh yeah. And fuzzy picture is the biggest problem. Longview and Cheyenne are the two primary areas. Mayor Mancino: Now Todd do you think that we'll continue getting fuzzy pictures just because of the technology? The old technology and when we do get into the fiber optics we won't? Todd Gerhardt: Well I think fiber is going to be probably a big factor in... Mayor Mancino: Mark, why don't you have the three disconnects call Todd and then tell him who they are so he can deal directly with Triax... Don Ashworth: I did pass out a copy of the budget article that we're anticipating putting in this edition of the newsletter. Karen's going to take that over to the printer probably Wednesday so if you get a chance to take a look at that one. Mayor Mancino: Article going into next newsletter. Got it. Councilman Senn: Could I propose some changes? Mayor Mancino: You certainly can. Would you like to do that after this meeting? Thank you. Councilman Senn: Well no, but I mean what's your preference? I mean do you want each one of us to just give them to you individually and then you're to have to get it all back together or do you want to kind of get. Mayor Mancino: I haven't read it. Don Ashworth: So I guess I would prefer hearing. Councilman Senn: To each concurrence on it or not. Don Ashworth: Right. Mayor Mancino: You'd like us to do it right now? Okay. Councilman Senn: I know you want to get home Mayor, but you know 15 more minutes. Mayor Mancino: It's past my bedtime. Don Ashworth: I don't think we need to reach concurrence on the wording. 46 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: That clock's wrong. It's really only quarter to 10:00. Don Ashworth: My guess is Councilman Senn has, there's like sections that he doesn't want in there and SO. Mayor Mancino: So when did you have time to do this Councilman Senn? That's what I want to know. I know when you did. Never mind, go ahead. Councilman Senn: First paragraph. Second to the last sentence, or after the second to the last sentence. I'd really love it if we could put some plain and simple language in there that says, this is every citizens opportunity to ask questions and voice opinions over all city budget matters, including levels of expenditures, specific expenditures, programs and services being provided or not being provided, levels of taxation, etc. Mayor Mancino: Well any questions that they have. Councilman Senn: Their one time to affect the city budget process and we never say that. Don Ashworth: That sounds good. Councilman Senn: And we never, we always talk about Truth and Taxation hearings and they don't even understand what it means. In the last paragraph. Mayor Mancino: Actually that should be in the headline where it says annual Truth and Taxation hearing set for December 2nd. This is a little subparagraph. This is your time to comment. Councilman Senn: I'll give this to Don and as long as everybody's saying okay with the concept. Is that okay? Councilman Mason: That's cool. Councilman Senn: Then in the last paragraph, the sentence kind of in the middle of the paragraph. It says initial estimates reveal that the City levy for operations debt should not produce a tax increase, okay. I've got, I mean I'm having a problem with that because we haven't adopted a levy limit, okay and this infers that we have. So if you want to see initial estimate for...that the staff's recommended levy for operation debts would not produce a tax increase, I don't have a problem with that. Okay. Added to that however, the statement in general I have a little bit of a problem with because it's really wiping out. I mean your statement's true. The problem is it's wiping out part of the savings that they're already going to get because of the legislature's action on the omnibus tax bill. Correct? I mean there were two levels to that. One was immediately affected. The other is the rebate they apply for through their tax return. But I mean there was a general lowering of taxes right up front as related to the omnibus tax bill. Now that savings isn't accounted for in here, yet we're, it's kind of like a misstatement saying we're not raising their taxes, and it's true we're not raising their taxes on this basis but they also aren't getting the reduction that's already been passed. So it's kind of like a mistruth. I think that needs to be said a different way. Don Ashworth: Well and they brought out at the School District. This past year saw more changes in the tax law.., best guesstimates. You know maybe what I should do is just take the thing out of there entirely. Because if the thing comes out and there's the 5% increase because the city operations and 3% because of 47 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 the park referendum, they could be standing out there saying, you said in this newsletter that it would be 0 and mine is up 8%. And there are so many complicated changes. Mayor Mancino: I would much rather wait. Councilman Senn: Don, I mean I really agree with you. I mean it seems the more I read into the last paragraph here, the most questions it raised rather than problems it solved. Don Ashworth: Get Mark's notes, we're done. Councilman Mason: That sounds good. Mayor Mancino: We have one other, last thing to go through. ADMINISTRATIVE SECION DISCUSSION. Mayor Mancino: No, I just have two things because of their scheduling conflicts but I do want to bring up. If you look under November, 1997 meeting schedule. Councilman Senn: November what, I'm sorry? Mayor Mancino: Meeting schedule because I think one of them affects you. Councilman Senn: Oh way back in the back calendar? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Councilman Senn: Okay. Mayor Mancino: On November 20th. This is for Todd Gerhardt. On November 20th. Councilman Senn: Hey Todd, you promised me you'd never do it again. Mayor Mancino: And I'm not sure, I'm asking this. Yes. There is an EDA meeting and there is a Southwest Metro Transit Commission meeting. Is there a way that we can avoid that conflict right now? Todd Gerhardt: I didn't do it, Karen did it. Mayor Mancino: And do we want to do that? Can we put the EDA meeting? Councilman Senn: Guess what? Mayor Mancino: What? Councilman Senn: Todd you didn't know it but you're okay. They moved the 20th meeting to the 27th. Councilman Mason: No they didn't. 48 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: No they didn't. That's Thanksgiving. Councilman Mason: They moved it to the 27th for a reason... Councilman Senn: Is that Thanksgiving? Councilman Mason: That would be Thanksgiving. Councilman Senn: Now you've forced me to put my glasses on... Okay, so it's got to be the 20th. I don't know why it's written down for the 27th. You got me. I'll tell you what, would you mind checking with them in the morning so I don't have a conflict. Mayor Mancino: I'm almost positive you have one because it was actually a commission meeting I was going to go to and who told me it was on the 20th. I want to say maybe it was Sharmin. I've never been to a Southwest Metro. Councilman Senn: Oh well, you don't know what you're missing. Mayor Mancino: So anyway, somebody offer a suggestion to this conflict. Can we do it on? Councilman Senn: Especially since we're doing strategic planning right now. You'll really love it. Mayor Mancino: EDA on the 18th? On the 18th? Councilman Mason: I can't do Tuesdays. Mayor Mancino: Do we need to have a EDA meeting on the 20th? I mean do we need to have one in November? Roger Knutson: Yes. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah we do. Dean Johnson. Councilman Senn: Well how long an item is it? I mean is it something we could tack on before the Council meeting and do it? Roger Knutson: What I have to bring to you shouldn't, what I have to say will take 2 minutes. Councilman Senn: Do you have any other items? Todd Gerhardt: Budget and that's 2 minutes. Councilman Senn: Why don't we do it before the council meeting on the 17th? Mayor Mancino: That's a work session. That's fine. EDA. Todd Gerhardt: On the 14th? 49 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Mason: 17th. Todd Gerhardt: I've just got to verify with Gary Boyle and Jim. Gary is out of town a lot. Mayor Mancino: You guys, what if we start at 5:00 that night. The 17th. Would that work? Councilman Senn: Works okay by me. Councilman Mason: But I'm assuming this 10:00 p.m. ending time is a misprint? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Also, just. Councilman Mason: What is it normally? Mayor Mancino: 9:00. Councilman Mason: Okay, thank you. I'm going to write that in right now. 9:00. Mayor Mancino: And you guys, the Environmental Commission meeting is not on the 13th but on the 12th, if anybody wanted to make that. Councilman Senn: Which one? Mayor Mancino: The Environmental Commission meeting is not on the 13th but they're on the 12th. They're on Wednesdays. Okay, I have one other. Councilman Mason: EDA is 17th. If that works out with Gary and Jim. If it doesn't, I think we need to revisit it. Councilman Senn: Okay, can you jump, while you're on scheduling things still, or before you leave that. Can you jump to the page before which is our work session schedule? Going to December. Are we going to, we're going to have a work session on the first. Mayor Mancino: Of December. Councilman Senn: First of December. And okay, and then another one on the 15th. Okay, and before that we have, okay or right after that. See we have a meeting on the first. Work session. We have Truth in Taxation on the 2nd. And then we've got the conference. Mayor Mancino: And then we have continuation of Truth and Taxation. Councilman Senn: Then we're back in town from the conference and we're right into, oh that's a regular meeting then on the 8th, right? Don Ashworth: Right. Councilman Senn: Boy. That's going to be wonderful. 50 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Mason: Maybe that one on the first should be canceled. Councilman Senn: Well is there anything we have to meet on the first for? Don Ashworth: That's a Monday? Councilman Senn: Yeah. Mayor Mancino: It's a work session. Don Ashworth: And those were items that you picked out. Those have been moved a number of times. They could easily be moved. Councilman Senn: I mean there's nothing we're going to have to do budget wise or whatever that we have to act on at that point? Don Ashworth: No. Mayor Mancino: Well and the signage is already up on November 3rd because we have to for the 120 days. Affordable housing, we kind of talked about a Livable Communities. Yeah, we can move those two. Councilman Senn: So could we cancel the lst? Councilman Mason: That would be good. Councilman Senn: Well we're going to be meeting every day after that till the 8th. Mayor Mancino: I'm not fighting that one. Councilman Senn: There is light outside of City Council I think. Mayor Mancino: Okay. I have one other question under Admin. Page 16 of income statement. Mr. Ashworth. I just have a real quickie question for you. As I was looking over Historic Preservation Trust Revenue, our budget for 1997 is $518,000.00 and we've pulled in $46,000.00. How come there's such a variance, a 91% variance? Does that mean that we just always get it at the end of the year or something? Don Ashworth: I'm not sure. Mayor Mancino: Anyway, if you could check on that and the next page too, under Fire Fighters Relief Revenue there's a 75% variance as far as getting in revenue. Don Ashworth: Okay. Mayor Mancino: Those are my only two questions, if you could check on. Anybody else have any questions in the Admin Section? Councilman Senn: Oh, the relief revenue though I thought we talked about that the other night. I thought that was just a product of when the payments came in from the levy. From the taxes. 51 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: I don't know. Don Ashworth: Well the City, the city portion would be a function of the property tax collection. The State aid thing is whenever that's disbursed, which my recollection was that was summer. You know June- July. Somewhere in there. Those monies should have already been in. But I'll check on them. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any other questions in the Admin Section? Okay. This meeting is adjourned. Mayor Mancino adjourned the meeting at 9:55 p.m. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 52