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CC Minutes 1997 01 27CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING JANUARY 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCIL MEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Berquist, Councilman Engel and Councilman Mason COUNCIL MEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Senn STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Kate Aanenson, Charles Folch, Todd Gerhardt, Phillip Elkin, Steve Kirchman, and Elliott Knetsch APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the agenda as submitted. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Mayor Mancino: Are there any items that Council members would like to pull from the agenda and discuss separately? Councilman Berquist: I wanted to pull 1 (b) for a very quick point of discussion. Mayor Mancino: And can we do that? Councilman Berquist: Very rapidly. Mayor Mancino: Very rapidly. Why don't we do that right now. Councilman Berquist: 1 (b) is a granting of an extension for a wetland alteration on a permit that was applied and granted back in 1993. The only point of issue that I wanted to bring up was that I would like to see that somehow or another we're able to cover the costs the City incurs in putting these extensions together. Every year we have a number of plats and permits that are applied for and no action ever taken and then every year when the extensions come up it takes staff, and a lot of other people, inordinate amounts of time to put the, to do their homework and put it back out for this type of action. I think it would be fair to pass those costs onto the applicants. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Any other item that there's any discussion on. Then may I please have a motion. City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: Oakwood Estates 2nd Addition, 532 Lyman Boulevard, Gene Quinn: 1) Final Plat Approval 2) Approve Development Contract, Project 96-15 Approve One Year Extension for Wetland Alteration Permit #93-4, Peninsula on Lake Lucy, Alan and Mary Weingart. Amendment to City Code to Prohibit Chemical Treatment of the Algae in Wetlands, Second and Final Reading; and Approval of Summary Ordinance for Publication Purposes. Authorize Preparation of Specifications and Receipt of Bids for Purchase of 1997 Vehicles and Equipment. f. Authorize Test Boring for Well No. 8. Amendment to City Code Section 19 Regarding Lateral Utility Connection and Trunk Utility Hook- up Charges, Second and Final Reading; and Approval of Summary Ordinance for Publication Purposes. Approval of On-Sale Non-Intoxicating Liquor License for the February Festival on Lake Susan, Chanhassen Lions Club. i. Resolution/t97-08: Approve Resolution to Decertify Hennepin County Tax Increment District. j. Approval of Bills. City Council Minutes dated January 13, 1997 Public Safety Commission Minutes dated January 9, 1997 All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Dave Hempel: My name is Dave Hempel. I live at 3707 South Cedar Drive on Red Cedar Point, Lake Minnewashta and I'm here to address the Council in reference to some rather extension variances granted on a property adjacent to mine for construction. I don't know exactly how to explain this but over and over again, over a period of about 4 months, these requests were constantly turned down and there were recommendations made by the Board of Adjustments and Appeals as to the variances that should be granted and based on my Minutes of all the meetings that took place, the Council, the party appealed to the Council to try and get the variances he wanted. Based on my review of the Minutes, the construction reaches outside of those variances granted and all I seem to get is well, it's way outside but it's legal and what I'm referring to is, and I would like the Council to address at some point. If there is a loophole in the Building Code that is what I consider rather large where this individual can get away with what's going on there, that it should be addressed. The construction has gone beyond any point where I feel any remedy could be taken at this time. It's, the house is way up. City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: You're concerned about future? Dave Hempel: Yes I am, and you know it was referenced, it's in reference to a 26 foot wide structure, stated over and over again. 7 foot setbacks stated over and over again. And some cantilevering of the structure in relationship to fire danger, which was the major concern in all of this. Coming out 2 feet on both sides by cantilevering, and in my opinion if it's hanging by a rope or it's on stilts or it's cantilevered, he's encroached in that fire danger zone that was basically the major concern of everybody involved. We're now down to a 5 foot setback and a 30 foot wide structure. And I don't know if you want to, you know like I say, my major concern is for future reference because there are a number of 40 foot lots in the area and I'd hate to see this happen again. Mayor Mancino: Are there any questions for Mr. Hempel? Councilman Berquist: Dave, what are we talking? Bay windows here? Dave Hempel: No. I've discussed with members of staff and according to what my understanding is, the cantilevering was to allow for bay windows and so forth but the cantilevering involved here extended the kitchen. It extended the upper level back. It extended the living room. And the only place where it ducks back into the construction is where there's an interior wall, which means he's not losing much room there anyway. And I don't know if the Council's familiar with, it's construction on 3705. Councilman Berquist: I remember the variance. We approve a variance and the plan review is done? The footprint of the building shows footings obviously but it also shows the side limitations. Grant a variance, do we take those bay windows and bow windows cants into account? Kate Aanenson: As you recall, when this variance came before you, it came before you 2 or 3 times and the applicant, it was a moving document. He would come in asking for more and we never saw the final plans here and we agree, it was a gray area. Mr. Hempel brings up a point that the Code does allow for anomalies into the setback. What we've agreed to is make sure when we go for a variance that we say under no circumstance can you exceed that, even with a bay or anything like that. That should be the point. Right now it doesn't say that and we agree that that's a problem. The way the Code is set up so from now on when we grant those variances, that it's clear that you can't extend into that setback if you've already been given a variance. Mayor Mancino: So can we see a new reading that would have this in effect in our zoning? Kate Aanenson: I think what we need to do is when someone's going for a variance, that always needs to be a standard condition that's attached. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Okay. Kate Aanenson: A standard point that says that no anomalies into the setback. If you've been given a variance, you can't exercise additional relief by putting steps into a setback area, or a bay window are the things that we talked about that he put in. There was some gray area and he certainly wanted to maximize the building site and he found a way to do it. Mayor Mancino: So that won't happen again? City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Kate Aanenson: You've got one other one that you approved out on Lake Riley. The same sort of thing. They actually came in with the eaves that exceeded. The house stays in the setback but the roof overhangs, again trying to maximize the slope of the upper story. That was approved a couple months ago but that will be another one that the neighbors, we're going to correct that. Standard condition. Mayor Mancino: Okay, then after that one it won't happen again? Kate Aanenson: Those are the two. Those are the other ones I'm aware of that was granted like the next month after yours. Dave Hempel: Okay. Could I also just address one other point? Mayor Mancino: Sure. Dave Hempel: I don't know if the City Attorney or anybody has any advice for me but I'm now left with some damages to my property. I feel I have a fireplace because the structure is so close next to me and so much higher than mine, any time I get a wind out of the, anyplace in the eastern quadrant of the compass, it comes over the roof of that structure and down my chimneys and I end up with smoke all over in my house so I have a rather expensive fireplace that's, every time I light a fire I have to think about what way the wind's blowing. That's another point. So just to plant it in everybody's mind that I've been awake hours and hours and hours from 1:00 till 5:00 you know. Mayor Mancino: Mr. Hempel, have you submitted something in writing to the City? Dave Hempel: I haven't submitted anything in writing because Chmiel and John, it wasn't John Rask but anyway, a couple of members of the variance committee asked me to make this presentation so I haven't done anything in writing yet. Kate Aanenson: All the members of the planning staff, we're well aware of the issue and again that brought back the point that we had on the variance. You've got a small lot.., built up on the variance. ... by granting relief. Dave Hempel: So am I to, is it an issue that's been taken care of in the Code or is it something that's supposed to be just kind of passed down? Mayor Mancino: It will be procedural now. It will be policy now to make sure that it's not left open. That there will be a specific footage, I mean how far the variance can overhang. Dave Hempel: Okay, thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else wishing to address the Council during Visitor Presentation? Please come up. Sate your name, address. Okay, seeing none I will move on to public hearings. City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 PUBLIC HEARING: VACATION OF AN EXISTING SANITARY SEWER EASEMENT LOCATED OVER LOT 13 AND PART OF LOT 16, AUDITOR'S SUBDIVISION NO. 2 THAT WILL BE REDEDICATED ON THE NEW PLAT OF "THE FRONTIER", TED DELANCEY. Public Present: Name Address Tom Devine Jay Warrier 7640 South Shore Drive 7423 Frontier Trail Charles Folch: Thank you. The City has received a vacation application from Mr. Ted deLancey requesting that the City release an existing sanitary sewer easement over Lot 13 and part of Lot 16 in Auditor's Subdivision No. 2. This request is in conjunction with the platting of Mr. DeLancey's property into the Frontier Addition. Currently the parcel is subject to a sewer easement which blankets the entire property and the applicant is requesting that this blanket easement be extinguished and replaced with a new 20 foot wide utility easement centered on the existing sanitary sewer pipe in conjunction with the platting of the property. Staff has reviewed this vacation request and finds that it is in the public's interest to release the blanket easement over the property and re-record a new standard utility easement over the pipe. Therefore the vacation request is recommended by staff contingent upon the appropriate utility easements being granted with the platting of the property. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any questions from Council members to staff at this point? Is Mr. DeLancey here? I think he's in Arizona. May I have a motion to open this to a public hearing please? Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Mason seconded to open the public hearing. Mayor Mancino: This is open to a public hearing. Anyone wishing to address the City Council, please do so. Come up, state your name and address. Jay Warrier: My name's Jay Warrier and I live at 7423 Frontier Trail. Just across from Ted's house. My question is mostly one of clarification. I'd like to understand from the planning department why there was an original easement and why they feel that it's no longer necessary to have the scope of easement in it's original dimensions and reduced. Charles Folch: Staff researched to at end and we could not find exactly what the premise was for why a blanket easement was put in over the property. All we could assume is that at some point before the sewer line was put in that it was not known exactly where the line would go and so an easement was acquired over the entire property. Other than that, and that's speculation. I mean other than that we can't find exactly why this blanket easement, it's unusual to have that kind of easement over a property. Mayor Mancino: I was going to say, is there another parcel in the city that you know of that has a blanket easement over the entire parcel? Charles Folch: Not for sanitary sewer. Not for a utility easement. We have some drainage easements and such that can be more comprehensive but not for an easement for an underground structure or utility. City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Nevertheless, again in reviewing the scope of the request, it's staff's contention that the vacation of the entire blanket easement is appropriate as long as we gain a standard utility easement over the existing line that is. Mayor Mancino: As we do on every other parcel. Charles Folch: Exactly. Jay Warrier: Okay, thank you. That answers my question. Mayor Mancino: Does that answer that for you? Jay Warrier: Yes it does, thank you. Mayor Mancino: Good, thank you for coming. Anyone else wishing to speak during the public hearing on this issue. May I have a motion to close the public hearing. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to close the public hearing. Mayor Mancino: Comments from Council members. Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: None. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: None. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Berquist. Councilman Berquist: No. Mayor Mancino: And I have no comments either. May I please have a motion? Councilman Berquist: I move that we adopt the staff's resolution vacating the existing sewer, sanitary easement contingent upon it being rededicated with the new plat. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. May I have a second to the motion? Councilman Mason: Yes you may. Resolution #97-09: Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Mason seconded to adopt a resolution vacating the existing sanitary sewer easement located over Lot 13 and part of Lot 16, Auditor's Subdivision No. 2 contingent upon it being rededicated on the new plat of "The Frontier". All voted in favor and the motion carried. City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 PROPOSED SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT WITH HALLA NURSERY~ 10000 GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD. PublicPresent: Name Address Jeff Jones Boyd Peterson Gaye Guyton Adrienne Carrier Bill Hoover Jeff Davenport Bradley Phillipe Kristin & Brian Houle Patty Carruth Dave Johnson Ruth Halau Debi & Skip Cook Dick Henning Sandy & Don Halla Craig & Missy Frick Erin Hagen Mark Halla Karen C. Dougherty Shawn & Lisa Cuff 2151 Boulder Road 9860 Pioneer Circle 10083 Great Plains Blvd. 900 Homestead Lane 1000 Lake Susan Drive 7767 South Shore Drive 1420 Meadow Court 880 Lake Susan Drive 1001 Homestead Lane 84 Creekwood 10271 Great Plains Blvd. 15506 Village Woods 737 Ashley Drive, Chaska 6601 Mohawk Trail, Edina 508 Innsbruck Drive, Chaska 6056 Allan Circle, New Hope 770 Creekwood 533 Marshland Trail 6601 Mohawk Mayor Mancino: Mr. Knutson, would you please give us the City Attorney's report on where we are with this. Roger Knutson: Mayor, members of the Council. As I believe you know, this action started over 2 years ago when a building was constructed without a building permit. We requested the property owner to obtain a building permit. He declined. Refused to do so. We started an action requiring him to get a building permit. That carried on for some period of time. Other issues came up and we tried to develop. Mayor Mancino: Excuse me just one minute Mr. Knutson. Can everyone hear? Roger Knutson: I'll move it closer. Mayor Mancino: If you can't while we're talking, if you could please raise your hand. I'll keep looking around and making sure. Thank you. Roger Knutson: Can you hear me now? As a result of that action to require the property owner to obtain a building permit we reviewed other issues with the applicant involving his use of the property. Issues had been raised at that time and earlier about his non-conforming use of the property and we tried to work out City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 which we have termed a global settlement of the land use issues involving that property. I'd like to emphasize a couple things. At no time, at no time has any single Council member or any staff member ever suggested that the business has to close. That Halla Nursery has to close. That has never been whispered by a sole working for the City, to the best of my knowledge. That's no so. Second, on timing. We worked long and hard trying to bring this back to the Council chambers. As the Council knows, we met with the Council in September of 1996. Got directions from the Council and what they wanted in the settlement agreement. We put that together and brought it to Mr. Halla. Made some progress and then from about sometime in October until just before Christmas negotiations were broken off. Mr. Halla said he didn't want to talk to us during that period, in so many words. So for about two months nothing happened. Then beginning in December, right around Christmas until now we've been in continuing discussions with Mr. Halla trying to refine the wording of the settlement agreement. That draft was presented to the City Council, in an executive session, this evening at 5:30 to review for the first time. The Council at that executive session has directed that I make certain changes, and I'll go over them briefly. On the site plan, the dimension of all buildings must be shown. Item two. On the site plan a 20 foot separation must be shown for all future greenhouses from all other structures. That's in accordance with the Uniform Building Code. And the stipulation itself, I was directed to make two changes. On signage. Paragraph 6(a), subparagraph 3. It was amended to read, and I will read it. One highway directional sign to be placed in the southeast quadrant of the intersection of Highway 101 and Pioneer. The sign content shall be limited to "Halla Nurseries" and directions. The sign may not exceed 8 feet in height and 72 square feet in size per sign face. The sign may have two sides back to back or V shaped. The sign shall not be lit. Before erecting the sign a sign permit must be received from the City. The sign must be removed at the time the lot is sold. The other change is in paragraph 9. The public address system. The tenant shall cease and desist the use of the public address system or other sound application devices that may be heard from outside a building effective immediately. Those are the changes I believe the Council has instructed me to make. IfI have missed something, I'm sure I'll be corrected. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone wishing to address the City Council at this time on this issue? Please come forward. State your name and address and give us your comments. Mark Halla: Good evening. Can everyone hear me? I'm Mark Halla. I'm representing Halla Nursery. I reside at 770 Creekwood in Chanhassen. Can I ask the City's attorney to re-read the directive in reference to the signs one more time please? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Roger Knutson: One highway directional sign may be placed at the southeast quadrant of the intersection of Highway 101 and Pioneer. The sign shall be limited to "Halla Nurseries" and directions. The sign may not exceed 8 feet in height and 72 square feet in size per sign face. The sign may have two signs back to back or V shaped. The sign shall not be lit. Before erecting the sign a sign permit must be received from the City. The sign must be removed at the time the lot is sold. Mayor Mancino: Mark, this is in addition to the signage, the permitted signage under the agreement that was reached on 1/21 so this would be an additional number 5. Mark Halla: I understand that. Mayor Mancino: Per your request. City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Mark Halla: Thank you. As everyone here is aware, the City of Chanhassen sued Halla Nursery in June of 1994 because we constructed a new garden center building to replace our old one. We counter sued the City because we had been told, in writing, by a building official that we could build the building without a permit. After the building was constructed the City then decided it was not an agricultural building and they sued us. We have since applied for, received and even paid the City a fine for a building permit. The City's suit against Halla has been fully satisfied. In the process of trying to resolve the building issue however it was brought to our attention that the City now considers Halla Nursery to be a non-conforming use, not allowed by zoning. This means that if a tornado comes through and wipes us out, we cannot legally rebuild. We have a problem with that. We've made a concerted effort over the years to improve the aesthetics of our entire garden center and to improve the quality of our plants by protecting them with greenhouses and shade houses. If disaster were to strike it'd be our intention to immediately rebuild. We would like that to be a legal option. In addition, the city staff has also informed us they will not allow us to construct any new greenhouses or shade houses to protect our plants, even though State and Federal law says that it's legal for us to do so. We would like to be considered a legal use within Chanhassen once again with the right to improve our business in the future and that is why the stipulation is so important. The stipulation, with our proposal included, provides a legal alternative to spending more time and money in court. After all the City has already spent approximately $30,000.00 fighting us. Poor use of tax money if you ask me. Halla's proposal and the stipulation mitigate the staffs concerns about our business remaining where it is. We have agreed to add berming, screening or fencing to lessen any foreseeable impacts on future neighbors. We have agreed to never have more than 89,120 square feet of greenhouses, ever, which is only about 15% of the garden center site. We think that's a huge concession. And we agreed to never construct any of these greenhouses within 30 foot of the property line unless we receive prior written permission from the adjacent property owner. We have agreed to remove all of our outdoor mounted speakers by February 1, 1997. Another big concession. We've also agreed to downsize our current signs along TH 101 and Pioneer Trail, the ones you're referencing, to approximately 50% to only 8 foot by 12 foot. And furthermore, to remove them when the lot they occupy is sold. In addition we've also agreed to remove many other signs as a part of this stipulation. Considering the fact that Halla Nursery has been in Chanhassen for 35 years, since before the city was even a city, we believe our proposal to this stipulation concedes as much as is feasible and indicates our willingness to fairly resolve this lawsuit. We hope you feel the same. By adopting the stipulation with our proposal everyone wins. The City wins because they get a written document filed in District Court that allows certain rights and no more. They erase the cloud of grandfather rights. They get rid of some signs and speakers. They get limitations on how much we can improve our business in the future and they completely eliminate future battles and expenses. Halla Nursery wins because we are once again a legal use within the city. We are allowed to improve our business within certain guidelines and we aren't forced to spend any more time and money on this expensive lawsuit. Since this is a public hearing I would anticipate we may hear good things about our business tonight, as well as some negativity. I welcome any feedback. The positive feedback obviously supports us and makes us feel like we're on the right path. And the criticism provides us an opportunity to make improvements where needed. In fact in September of 1996 we surveyed 94 of our closest neighbors. We asked them about speakers, signs, greenhouses and even whether they thought we should sell out or remain where we were. Only three of the responses said to sell. The remainder said they believed we were an asset to the community and should stay. The same three, and one additional neighbor said we should not be allowed to construct additional greenhouses, and again the remainder said they found it acceptable for us to build additional greenhouses. In reference to the signs along TH 101 and Pioneer Trail. The same three, and the same one additional, said they wanted us to permanently remove our signs. And once again the remainder said they would support us permanently mounting those signs on the comer with landscaping around them. When it came to the speakers we had seven complaints. I personally met with two of those people and they agreed that they could no longer hear the speakers after we had pointed them another City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 direction. I drove around the neighborhoods and was unable to hear the speakers off our property. Even so Halla Nursery has offered to remove our outside mounted speakers by February 1, 1997. City staff has repeatedly stated that they do not want us to improve our business because doing so makes it less likely that we will leave. They've not said that they want us to leave, they said that building more or improving our lot makes it less likely we will go. To me they're stating they think that at some point they want us out of there. This mentality boggles my mind. We've been in Chanhassen for 35 years. Why would we want to leave? What gives anyone the right to tell us it's time to go? Is it legal to pressure us to leave? Not to mention is it moral. I don't think so. It's also important to realize that we don't consider anything we've asked for to be an expansion of our business. We've actually downsized from 100 acres to about 13 acres. The green houses we wish to construct are simply protective coverings over existing retail areas. They are not an expansion of our retail area but rather a method of improving the quality of our plant material. The stipulation before you now, with Halla's proposal as a part of it, is nearly the same as the one reviewed by Council during executive session on September 23, 1996. There have been minor changes in terminology and the site plan, all of which were negotiated, asked for or agreed upon by the City's attorney. About 3 weeks ago I was at the City Attorney's office. We had just completed hammering out an agreement I believed we both supported. That agreement is not in front of you tonight because while I was there the City's attorney was directed by staff to discontinue negotiations, rewrite the stipulation without most of the items Halla thought were crucial and present the stipulation back to this Council tonight. The stipulation now before you is that rewritten version. You will see that it no longer even mentions additional greenhouses despite the fact that two additional greenhouses were already found acceptable in a letter sent to me September 26, 1996 by the City's attorney. Mayor Mancino: Mark, let me stop you there because I believe...that is on the site plan. Mark Halla: The site plan is the same. The stipulation does not even mention future greenhouses. It's been taken out of the stipulation. Roger Knutson: Mayor? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Roger Knutson: The stipulation incorporates the site plan. Two future greenhouses are on the site plan. This proposal would approve that. Mark Halla: Then we should put them in the stipulation so everyone's clear on that. Roger Knutson: It is. It's in the site plan which is part of the stipulation. Mayor Mancino: Throughout this whole legal document it refers to Exhibit A. This site plan. Don Halla: ... says this is not in the stipulation. Mayor Mancino: Excuse me. Please sit down until, thank you. Mark Halla: I'll let Don come up here and discuss that with you as well but the wording in the stipulation. 10 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Maybe we'll let the attorneys do it but I just want you to know that we, as a Council, are accepting the Exhibit A and we do see those two greenhouses. So I just want you to know that that is our intent and we'll let the legal parties. Mark Halla: That's great. We'll need to write that down. The stipulation as written right now says that anything written controls. Mayor Mancino: Their wording, that's fine Mark. Okay. Mark Halla: Thank you. It no longer includes Halla's proposal as options within the stipulation but rather as an additional item for you to include if you wish. It's important for you to realize that I believe our proposed additions are vital to the acceptance of this stipulation by both parties. I urge you to directly ask the City's attorney if he will continue to support the stipulation with our additions as a part of it. To sum it up, I believe this stipulation, with our proposal as a part of it, is fair to everyone involved. It protects future neighbors. It protects the City and it protects Halla Nursery. It's a win/win solution. I believe Halla Nursery is an asset to our community. I believe our community recognizes that fact. I believe a business like ours can fit in quite nicely amongst residential uses and not only should we be allowed to stay but we should also be encouraged to improve our products and services to meet the needs of the community even better. I believe the City Manager and staff, employed by all of us as taxpayers, should support us rather than fight us. I hope you believe the same. In reference to the signs, I discussed that greatly with the attorneys. As I said, Halla's proposal at one time was a part of the stipulation that could be chosen by you. I would like you to reconsider the signs that we have. We talked about putting the signs back up. If you recall, way back when we went before Planning Commission in reference to this, those signs were asked for at the last minute through an agreement for the development of the property by my father, Don. The business, as you know, was not a part of that development plan other than the fact that we were in the center of it. We never felt that it was legal to say that the site would not be acceptable to be developed unless the signs were removed. That was brought forth on a Friday evening when it was to be decided on a Monday evening. Don only had three days to decide whether he signed that agreement in order to continue on with the development. He was told that if he did not sign it, the development was dead. As far as I'm concerned he had no choice but to sign that agreement. The City put a gun to his head. I think that's unethical. I'd like to see you consider changing that back and allowing us to keep those signs, or as we spoke with the attorney, downsize them nearly 50% and put up nicer signs with landscaping around them, again to mitigate any negative effects they may have. I have the responses from my survey and they're not concerned a negative in the community. Some people may consider them so but by and far they're acceptable to the community. If you have any questions in reference to anything else, I'm happy to answer them. Mayor Mancino: Any Council member have any questions? We will give comments to your questions a little later. Thank you very much. Mark Halla: Okay, thank you. In addition to the additional greenhouses, we spoke in reference to that. We feel it's important for us as a business, if we want to stay in business, to be able to protect our crop better than we currently are. By having additional greenhouses we're able to more effectively raise those plants, to keep them safer from the elements. It's a very integral part of running a landscape garden center. We don't see the difference between putting up greenhouses in the same space it's currently being used for retail or not. You're not expanding it. You're simply improving the use of that land. I don't consider an improvement an expansion. If I want to be here 20 years from now, I'm going to need additional greenhouse space. I cannot effectively compete with my competition and support the community's needs 11 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 for a good healthy crop without additional greenhouses. Our proposal has asked for 89,000 square foot of greenhouse. As I said, that's less than 15% of our entire site. I don't think that that's asking for too much. We're happy to draw them in and put them in a location so that everyone knows where they'll be in a site or area that we can agree upon. We felt it was easier to say we agree not to build more than that ever. Please understand that this stipulation takes away all of our grandfather rights. When we sign this it means we cannot change it unless we come before you. We're effectively at your mercy in the future. We're agreeing that for the next 50 years we accept this. That's pretty serious to us and that's why it's dragged out for 2 ½ years. We don't take it lightly. We need to make decisions now that frankly you're not capable of making. You're guessing. You don't know what's to come in the future so you have to take your best guess and try to establish a stipulation that we all can agree with and not fight about in the future. Two additional greenhouses is nice. I appreciate you looking at that. We need to write that into the stipulation, but I'm asking for more. I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth but if I want to be successful in this community I need more than that. I'd like you to reconsider that issue. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Anyone else wishing to address the City Council on this issue. Please state your name and address. What city you live, I'm sorry. Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: Well I just want to make the comment that Mr. Halla said this is a public hearing and it is not a public hearing. It is under unfinished business and there are, I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to speak but unfinished business is different than a public hearing and I think we all have to make sure that everybody has all the facts right on this tonight because this is a pretty important deal. Adrienne Carrier: Hi. My name is Adrienne Carrier. I live at 900 Homestead Lane which is about a mile from Halla Nursery. I am not a customer of Halla Nurseries and I am here simply because of my concern about my particular perception as a tax holder that this is a bad deal. That I'm here, by prompted in the ad that was in the paper that I have become concerned and never have attended a meeting before. I was concerned when there wasn't a fence on Bluff Creek and I said, at Bluff Creek Elementary because it was aesthetically unpleasant and I said nothing. I was concerned when we spent money on bricks on Highway 5 that are covered with snow and I said nothing. And now I'm coming to say, wait a minute. Their noise doesn't bother me. There are no bike paths so I have to bike by Halla Nursery if I want to bicycle. And that it's part of our community and our neighborhood and I appreciate them being there. And that I just hope that as a City Council, more than just the Minutes in the paper, or that I have to read in the Star Tribune about decisions that are pro or con or positive or negative to our community, that you explain in the paper why you decide whatever you decide to do to them because as a taxpayer, and I'm kind of nervous, this just feels rotten. And that the three bags of fertilizer that I buy from them a year when I forget to fertilize and it's the closest place to go, doesn't, they would never recognize me here and I'm only here as a taxpayer to say, we're looking stupid again and I just hope that you would explain it in the papers so that people like me, who don't necessarily get to come because I have to leave and go home and be with my kids so my husband can go someplace, that we understand why you do business the way that you do because it isn't clear from your Minutes in the paper and it just makes you, makes us seem foolish. Thanks. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you for that comment. Anyone else wishing to address the City Council on this? Gaye Guyton: Good evening. My name is Gaye Guyton. I live at 10083 Great Plains Boulevard. We have owned our land there since October of 1994. We moved into our house there in November of 1995 and our land adjoins the easement that the tree nursery stock at Halla is on. It's one of the few lots that 12 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 comes off of that where there is a house. And I can't tell you how caring and thoughtful and concerned the Halla people have been of us, as a new neighbor, to make sure that the noise from the speakers was not bothering us. Mark came and talked to us and asked us if it was something that we could hear and we, except on a very windy day, had no trouble with it but he was more than willing to change them if it was a problem. And I just want to let you know in terms of as far as the neighbors that we have spoken with are concerned, we have no concerns about the noise and now I hear that he's going to even be removing those. They haven't been a problem. We consider them a very good neighbor. We like not just being in a big development. We like having them there in terms of flowers and tree stock and the kinds of things that they have much better than maybe a gas station or something else that might be there with people zipping in and out. We consider them a good neighbor. They have been very concerned for us. So I just wanted to say that. Thank you very much. Mayor Mancino: Thank you for your comments. Jeff Jones: Good evening. My name is Jeff Jones. I live at 2151 Boulder Road. I only want to say, I want to echo the lady, some of the things she said. From what I've gathered from this, and you get bits and pieces. You hear one side of the story and then you hear the other side of the story. But I think for a city, I've lived here 2 years, to spend time and money on an issue like some of the things like well if your business blows down in a tornado you can't rebuild or you can't have greenhouses because they're too big or too many. I think our priorities are getting out of whack. I think we've got to worry more about what the City is all about and not about what a nursery is doing. And I understand land use and I understand that you have to protect the environment and you've got to look at the aesthetics and all that stuff. But I think the real problem is a little bit about what that lady said. A little bit about getting priorities out of line and more importantly looking really at, I do a lot of business there and if they wouldn't have been there for me when I built my house, I would have had to spent a lot of money somewhere else and trucking stuff in and it would have been inconvenient and I think a lot of people that live here, because this city is growing so fast, you know just by sheer default end up doing business with them and I've never had an instance where you know, I play golf on that golf course all the time and to be honest with you, it's kind, I never minded the PA system but I don't live there so. But the other things I think, I just wanted to come up tonight and say thanks for being there. You got your, something's goofy here and I'm not sure what it is. Things aren't being, the right things aren't being focused on and thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Dave Rouse: Hi, I'm Dave Rouse. I live at 1660 Koehnen Circle. My wife showed me the article. Mayor Mancino: Excuse me, where's Koehnen Circle? Dave Rouse: It's off of Cardinal Drive. Mayor Mancino: Is that close to Halla? Dave Rouse: No. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Dave Rouse: But the article and listening to statements like the gun put to my head to sign something and that type of thing. Similar thing happened with my wife and I when we had to come before the Council. I 13 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 came because I live in the city of Chanhassen. What this Council does reflects on me and it's been my experience that we need to watch over you closer. I still think the whole operation could use a little bit of maybe some classes in morals or ethics. Business ethics. I think that a lot of the way that the city and the whole operation works is maybe got a little thuggery in it. But that's just an opinion. But ifI have that opinion maybe some other people do too out there so. All I came to is support my concern about how we treat businesses and people in this community. And I know first hand from what they speak about. Coming in before the Council with the documents delivered at the last minute with something that could have been presented prior so, I don't think that's the first time it's happened here. So that's why I here. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Jeff, you do know that this has been going on for a couple years. Dave Rouse: Some time, yep. Dave. Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry. Dave Rouse: But maybe I'll get up here more often too so, thanks. Mayor Mancino: Anyone else wishing to address the Council? Karen Dougherty: Hi, my name is Karen Dougherty. I live at 533 Marshland Trail. I just wanted to say, I just bought a house in 1995 and Halla Nursery helped me put landscaping in my little potting areas and stuff and personally Don Halla helped me and my daughter has enjoyed going out there just to see the peacocks and see all the different plants and everything. And I feel it's a shame that people like Roger are trying to demise and get rid of Halla Nursery. That's my feeling that that's what they're trying to do. To get rid of it. I mean if it blows down, you can't rebuild. That's unfair to say. You know this is a business. They own a business. They should have the right to rebuild on their property. Mayor Mancino: I don't think anyone has made that comment, and I don't think that that is a legally correct comment. Karen Dougherty: That's what I feel and what I feel cannot be disregarded. Mayor Mancino: Roger, if something were to happen and we were to accept this, they could rebuild according to the site plan? Roger Knutson: I've never made that statement. But in general, if you're talking about non-conforming uses, the same rules that apply to Halla's property apply to the rest of the city. If you have a non- conforming use and it's discontinued because it's blown away, then you have to conform with the new rules. That's what our zoning ordinance says. It's applicable city wide. To you and everyone else who owns property in the city. Karen Dougherty: I'm just stating what I feel. Mayor Mancino: But I also wanted you to know legally what the opinion is. Karen Dougherty: Well I understand but it's just, I feel like they're trying to oust Halla Nursery who has been there for over 30 years and has been a good community asset. 14 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Anyone else? Craig Frick: My name's Craig Frick. I live in 508 Innsbruck in Chaska but I come as an employee of Halla Nursery but mainly as a taxpayer. If you would tally up the amount of money that Halla Nursery has paid in taxes, not only through employment, my taxes that I've paid but sales tax. The company's income tax. On and on and on. They pay a lot of taxes. IfI were to want a neighbor, have a lot of other choices I could have as a neighbor, and I'd love to have a landscape nursery as a neighbor. I mean our biggest concern is aesthetics. I mean we would be willing to put up any kind of barrier, screening, whatever to make us look good. I've been with the company for 8 years. I've seen some pretty dramatic improvements in 8 years. I mean it used to be unsightly as you drive by on TH 101 but I think it's pretty nice now and I think any neighbor would love to have a landscape nursery as a neighbor. So those are my only comments. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else? Shawn Cuff: Hi, my name is Shawn Cuff and we're going to be building a house in the development right near the nursery and basically I just came down here to give my support as a future neighbor and just to say that it's going to be nice to have a business like that there as opposed to some of the other businesses people talked about that could be there. And I also just wanted to mention that to me it's frustrating, and I don't know any of the details of the situation but to me it's frustrating to see money that's spent on something where somebody's just simply trying to run a business. Obviously I don't know the details but to me that doesn't make sense. But I just wanted to come down and support the idea of having a nursery and have them be able to put up any kind of buildings that obviously weren't unsightly but at the same time helped them run their business. Mayor Mancino: Good, thank you. Anyone else? Rick Halver: My name is Rick Halver and I live at 10271 Great Plains Boulevard. I'm a neighbor of Halla Nursery's operation down there. I've lived down in that area for 40 years and I've been one of Halla's neighbors for 24 years. I'm amazed that this can come to this. In the late 60's, when I was a kid running around up on top of that hill, that was a nursery. It was a nursery then and I went by there on the way here tonight and it's still a nursery. How can it not be proper use of the zoning law. Obviously it was when it was originally established. What changed? And who changed it? If that zoning on that piece of property can be changed, why not get rid of the railroad track. Nobody gets, it's just you pick, you pick. You change this. You change that and nobody lets anybody know. This is not, this is not prudent use of taxpayers money to go after people like this. You wonder why there's cynicism in government. This is some more of this government coming at everybody and not working with people. I remember when downtown Chanhassen was a feed mill and two bars and a church and the old Brose farm out here that was the end of it. Look at it today. It didn't get where it is today through the very tactics you're trying to use on these people. Restrict signs. Restrict this. Can't do that. They've been here longer than most of this town. And they're not near the city limits. I mean they're down there and we all know that south of Pioneer Trail is like no man's land down there. And it's the same use that they've been using that for since they started because I lived there. I know that. They're not a problem. Of all the neighbors that you could possibly have, it's not a hazardous waste dump site. They don't generate nuclear waste. It's trees and garden material. I mean every yard's got it. I don't understand how this city can throw away this kind of money, this is my tax dollars you're throwing away. Fighting over whether this is the right use for a piece of ground when it was, that ground was used for that before the city ever existed. And who decides who's going to change what? I mean what's next? Are you going to wipe out a particular section of houses. 15 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 That doesn't make any sense. There's, this is heavy handedness. I mean it's the same old deal. A change is made and you find out about it later and right away you, things don't grow through restriction. You know you didn't build this town through restricting people in growth and that's exactly what you're trying to do with them. Cut down signs. Cut this out. Cut that out. They're an asset to the community. They're not a liability and you know if they'd spend as much time looking for illegal use of property. I mean it's everywhere. You've got businesses being run out of houses that shouldn't be there. It's everywhere but we spend tens of thousands of dollars deciding whether this is right or wrong and it's been there forever. I mean it's like picking sugar out of salt. It doesn't make any sense. It's not a prudent expenditure of our tax dollars. And you've got to get this straighten out. It doesn't make any sense. These people aren't bothering anybody. I mean I live within 250 feet of them and I've never had a problem with them. Their speakers, I mean what's the difference if you hear somebody on a speaker or you hear the cow moo at the farm? I mean it's noise. I mean nobody did anything about it when the trucks roar up and down the hill with no mufflers. I mean that's not a problem. Or someone leaves for the weekend and the burglar alarm goes off all weekend. That's not a problem. But a speaker's a problem or a sign is a problem. You know come on. We've got to do the right thing with people's tax dollars. Not this heavy handedness coming down on people. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Patty Carruth: Hi, my name's Patty Carruth from tOOt Homestead Lane, and I have a cold. This isn't my voice. I'm not a customer of Halla but I do drive by there every day and when I saw the ad in the paper I just wanted to give my support to Halla because I come from a real small town. I like Chanhassen. I love where it's going. I think the city's really grown up quite nice but the one thing that I do miss is the countryside and I don't want to ever see that change. When I drive by Halla every day it's a little piece of heaven on earth and I really want to see it stay that way. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Anyone else? Don Halla: Good evening. I'm Don Halla, President of Halla Nursery. We established our nursery, and some of this is going to repetitive but I'm going to say it the way it is. We established our nursery out in the country and really I think it was the township of Chanhassen in 1962. We began growing trees and shrubs and evergreens which were sold at that site plus in our garden center in Edina. In 1972 we applied again for moving our total operations out there, knowing that it was a retail nursery and a garden center that we were going to have. And we were granted a permit to build a new building, which we have converted at this time basically to our office building and design center. On several other occasions we called and were told that we did not need a building permit on agricultural land to build an agricultural building. In the case of the new garden center we again called and were told that we did not need a building permit to build a new building. We asked again for that information be faxed to us, and it was. I feel that we have been good stewards of the land. We've donated many trees to the city parks and to plants to charities and child development organizations in the city. We conduct educational classes and tours to preschool groups and separate classes for adults. In 1993 our relationship with the City began to deteriorate. Statements were made by city officials which set a tone for an adversarial relationship. In 1994 we were informed that our business had been made illegal through the adoption of the 1988 City Zoning Codes. This code change excluded our business after 32 years in Chanhassen. I feel that it was an oversight when the code was adopted. I wish the City had been willing to immediately change the code and to allow us to be a legal entity as we had been for the previous quarter of a century before it was adopted. This did not occur. We feel that we are a valuable asset to the City of Chanhassen. We supply the trees which are required to be planted on new homes or businesses. We grow and sell about t00,000 plants each 16 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 year to beautify Chanhassen and the surrounding neighborhoods. Our staff includes landscape designers and architects, garden center personnel and installation, foreman and crews. In the summer we employ about 35 people to grow, sell and install these plants. It is our intention to stay in Chanhassen. And to develop our business to serve the community's needs, and those are changing needs and we have to be able to change with those needs. We know, due to our severe winters, that greenhouses are needed to produce the best quality product. They are a protection to the plants that we would grow outside in the summer. Greenhouses allow us to develop better root systems that will tolerate our heavy clay soils of Chanhassen. I would hope that the Council can see fit to allow us to be a market driven company that is ready to serve Chanhassen residents in the best manner possible. We need the same things that other businesses need to grow. We need signs. We need communication systems. Exposure. Freedom to develop in an orderly manner and fair counsel from both elected and hired city staff. I feel the agreement worked out with the City Attorney, including the items that he was told to leave out, is something that we can live with. The complete agreement is necessary if we are able to give up, if we are going to give up the many grandfather rights we are being asked to do. I hope that you find in favor of ending this needless disagreement and decide to work with us to beautify and supply the landscape needs of Chanhassen. We do need to have the ability to put in at least 2 acres of greenhouses. We have a 12 acre site. We can't be restricted to just two greenhouses, or unless you want to consider 2 acres just two greenhouses. Little things that come up after a year, we find things on the last minute that had to be changed on those plans that were never told to us through all this time that we've been discussing these issues. Things that staff has not really tried to work with us on and has made it very rough for us to be in business. Our PA system. Our neighbors don't find it objectionable. People who don't live there do. It's hard for us to understand. We really need those PA systems because that's how we communicate with our customers, with our sales people and with other things. We've agreed, again because we felt the gun was held to our head, to eliminate them. This is the way we get things. The signs. Friday night I was told that I wasn't going to get a development of my property period if I didn't agree to it. And that wasn't this Friday. This was a period ago. And it was coming up the following Monday morning, or Monday night. I didn't have any reaction time but to say geez, well I'm going to lose this whole thing ifI don't agree to cut down my signs. I think that's unfair tactics. It shouldn't happen. The City knew what they wanted to do 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks ahead of time but they dropped it in at the last minute and changed the agreement and I was forced to sign it. Things like this go on and it makes it very difficult. I think the citizens have spoken tonight and let you know how they're feelings are on these too and I don't want to be in an adversarial condition. It's hard on us. It's hard on you. I'm sure it's hard on... Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else wishing to address the City Council. Boyd Peterson: Good evening. I'm Boyd Peterson, 9860 Pioneer Circle. I adjoin the east side of the nursery. I have confidence in the whole systems as far as the Council and the necessary people and I think things will get worked out. I support having a nursery there. I think it's a great asset to our area. Everybody that comes around, they say boy it's real nice to be next to a nursery. We do a lot of business there. Bring the kids over there. We have a lot of fun there. They leave it open for us to use, even if we don't spend a nickel there. As far as the PA system, there was times when it was loud and it was kind of, you know we don't need to hear that. This is the 90's. There's other ways. And I think if they give up that, that's personally I think giving up a lot for a business. As far as signs, I think with them owning land they have a right to have a certain size sign that gets worked out. Again thanks and good luck with the system. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Anyone else? 17 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Bill Hoover: Hi. My name is Bill Hoover. I live at 1000 Lake Susan Drive in Chanhassen. Madam Mayor, Council, staff. Hopefully we have a new Mayor, new councilmember. Hopefully our city will take a new direction. I hope Halla gets all worked out. I kind of see it as a game of spin the bottle and right now it's pointing at Halla. It has been pointing at me. I personally have spent a little over $16,000.00 in legal fees against the city since I moved in about 3 years ago. My greetings to Chanhassen was having a permit, a State permit renewed which the City is simply a clearinghouse to issue, and they decided they weren't going to issue it. $4,000.00 later I had a court order that they would issue it. Now I spent $4,000.00. I don't know how much the City spent. They had an attorney and staff working on it. My tax dollars at work. The next issue was the neighbor's lot, which the City did finally admit under oath was 5 feet higher than it was supposed to be. Mine they did admit in court was graded as it should be according to plans. The City testified the plans don't matter. Don't have to be followed. Mayor Mancino: Bill, would you keep your comments to the issue. Bill Hoover: I'll get that. Anyway, what I'm driving at is, I spent $12,000.00 on that. I won one, I lost one. Bottle line is we spend a lot of money on legal fees it seems on issues that should be able to be resolved before they get there. I say we have a new Mayor, hopefully have a new direction. It would be interesting to see a disclosure on what we are spending on legal fees and how they're being spent. Good luck to Halla. They've been a good neighbor for me. I live several miles away but they're there when I need them. I hope they continue to be there. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Appreciate your comments. Anyone else? Dave Johnson: Dave Johnson. I live at 821 Creekwood, Chaska. Actually it's just by the golf course going in. My wife and I moved in in June of 1980 and we have changed from having helicopters drop herbicides over Halla Nursery to having peacocks, which we much prefer. And I have seen nothing but things get better with Halla Nursery, especially over probably the last 5 or 6 years. Both sensitivity to the neighbors and just general attitude around the neighborhood and I hope the City Council would use it's wisdom and not laws to try to make the city a city. I think you have it within your power and I just ask that you use the wisdom that God gave you so thank you very much. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Jay Mitrani: Hi, I'm Jay Mitrani. I live in Chanhassen. I'd also like to say I'm behind Halla Nursery. I think it's one of the businesses that have been here for 30-40 years. They've got a lot of people moving into Chan. They've been fair to Chan. They've paid their taxes and I think we should stand by them. They deserve to stay here and they deserve a fair deal. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: You're welcome. Anyone else? Okay, thank you all for your comments. Let's bring this to councilmembers. Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: I had vowed to keep silent on this. I lied. Councilman Engel: You going to make it? Councilman Mason: No. I'm concerned about a bunch of stuff throughout this whole issue. I was concerned when I saw the ad in the paper. Clearly Halla's have the right to do that, and they exercised that right and good for them. I hear terms like working together. I hear terms like simply trying to run a 18 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 business. I don't have any problem with honest disagreement. I think if I could wax eloquent for a minute, I hope that's what this country is based on. One of the things is honest disagreement. I think it's important for all the citizens here to realize that we too are citizens of the city of Chanhassen and if anyone thinks anybody on this side of the dais is out to get anybody else, my view is that they don't know all the facts and I hope from my viewpoint, and I know some of these people fairly well, I know that that just is not true. I believe that in our society if somebody does something wrong, or chooses to violate a law or to disregard a law, typically there's a consequence involved. Be it a speeding ticket. Be it a fine. Be it you have to get a permit or you will get in trouble. The people that have spoken tonight, and I'm glad they're out. I quite honestly wish more people would come to Council meetings. I really do. The people that have spoken tonight are not privy to all the facts of what's going on here. Rightfully so they've only heard from one group. Note I said one group. Not one side. This has been a very difficult, very arduous position to be in and I can't imagine that anyone on this side, on this side. I wanted to avoid saying this side all night long but I guess at some point it won't work, does not enjoy taking legal action. We don't take this lightly. I can think of dozens of times we have done everything we possibly could before we have sought legal action. I've heard a number of misstatements tonight. That concerns me because I don't think everybody knows all the facts in this case. This isn't a side because I think quite honestly most of the comments were well meaning and very well directed. Unfortunately the gentleman that chose to attack the morals of City Council left. I wish he was still here, and I can only hope that that is not the issue for most of you people. Being a public official means you take a lot of shots, and I'm willing to accept that. I'm not willing to have my morals or my ethics challenged by anybody unless it's in a lawsuit, and then I don't have any choice. Having said that, we have worked long and hard on this stipulation. I believe that it is fair. It has never been my intent, and I am now only speaking for myself. It has never been my intent to put Halla out of business. I can think of, quite honestly I agree with all the comments about Halla Nursery and what they've done and been for this community. I quite honestly don't know where the comments are coming from that this city is trying to put Halla out of business. I am at a loss to find where that's coming from. I quite honestly hadn't planned on saying any of that until all of these comments. I think what's been worked out is fair and equitable. In the executive session we, as you know, changed some other things that I think are by and large favorable to Halla. I'll stop there. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: This is probably admittedly easier for me than anybody else on the Council, and even at that, you've got some experience with the Planning Commission which I don't have so you've got more experience in these things so I come at it, if not from a new or fresh perspective, from a naive one. And sometimes maybe that's good because I don't have an ax to grind on either side and I don't think anybody up here does either by the way. I sat in the executive session tonight... There's no ax to grind on the Council's part against anybody. And if I thought that was the case, if I thought Council was out to put anybody out of business, I'd be the first one to vote against it and I think it'd carry easily on this Council. I'd be against government at any level putting anybody out of business for any reason. You know like some fellow said up here just a bit ago, next they'll zone some housing development out there that they don't like. Property rights of owner should reign. I have no problem with that. At the same time there are other owners of businesses just like Halla, Lotus Lawn & Garden. I don't want to see one business be given a fair or unfair advantage over another, and I think that's what the Council is always trying to maintain here. And again I may be naive. I don't see anybody out to get anybody here. It's only been my first month. Maybe I'll learn more but I'm not seeing that and I've heard stories from both sides. I've read the documents from both sides and I would add, to sort of echo what Mike said. There have been, how do I put it correctly. There have been omissions or transgressions on both sides of the fence. I don't think anybody who's read this or seen this has gone on for a couple years could really dispute that. Otherwise it 19 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 would have been done a long time ago. One of my first goals when I got on the Council was to see this put to bed as soon as possible. Ifa person participates in a profit sharing plan in a business, one of the things I hate to see the most is, no offense Roger, money spent on legal fees because it takes away from what I'm going to get as an employee. And I hate to see it even more as a taxpayer, as I'm sure everybody else who pays taxes, and mentioned that tonight, feels. So when we went over these stipulations in executive session, we're looking for a way to get this done as quick as we can. My personal feelings, and I don't know that this is not the Council's feelings. I'm just saying what some of my ideas were. With number one, give you square footage stipulations. I don't really care how much square footage you have. I would just like to see it kept within certain boundaries on your property so that you don't infringe on any property owner. Now it's a broad brush and you can paint with it but I don't think that that's what we came to. I can't remember, we talked about so much now. I'd rather not tell you how to run your business. I'd rather not tell you how to do your greenhouses. I'd rather not tell you where to put them, when to put them, or how to big to build them. But I would like to see, stay out of any potential problems with your neighbors. Now or any future neighbors. So setbacks is probably my answer to that. Signage. Put a nice monument sign up. I can't see a landscape business not being able to do a nice one. I don't think anybody on the Council had a problem with that one either, so I think that's done. The public address system, I'm not sure where we left that one. I can't recall now. So much has gone on but again, rather than tell you how to do it or when to do it or what to do, just so that you don't bother the neighbors that you have. From the comments we've had tonight it doesn't sound like it's been a bother. From some of the comments we've had on Council, there have been complaints. Maybe they are from the same people all the time. Probably still need a little more work on that one. But nobody's here trying to railroad Halla out of business, and ifI felt that was the case I'd vote against it and I think there'd be, I think it'd carry. I don't think anybody wants to do that, so I just want to clear that up. Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Councilman Berquist. Councilman Berquist: I've got notes scattered all over. I'm going to try to make them somewhat coherent. Hopefully I'll succeed. First of all, I am not an unreasonable person. I don't think anybody up here is unreasonable. One of my basic tenants in life is fairness. I've been on this City Council for two years and every time that we seem to have a resolution in hand, there is a change of mind. Not on the City Council's part. Not on the staff's part. Not on the attorney's part. There's a change of mind on the Halla's part and they want something else. That's after going through it on about a 4 month basis for 2 solid years. I've listened to their story 4 or 5 times. Each time there's a portrait painted of Halla Nursery being put upon. And the fact of the matter is that they put up a retail garden center without a permit. When the City said you need a permit, they said no. We're not going to buy a permit. We're not going to take out a permit. We're not going to do what's necessary to bring the building up to normal retail sales codes, which are all safety issues. Go ahead and sue us. So the City was left with no choice but to begin litigation. That's how we got to a point where we were spending money on attorneys fees, and I'm not crazy about spending money on attorneys fees either. The accusations that are made are inflammatory and have some fundamental untruths with them. I've talked to Mark Halla extensively and I've always been willing to listen to him. The last 3 stipulations that he filed as an anticipated addendum to the latest agreement, I was willing to acquiesce to them. In some manner. Maybe not entirely but partially. The next thing I know there's an ad out again, talking about how the City is trying to put them out of business and how the City of Chanhassen has been unfair and unyielding and spending tax dollars unwisely and doing all these nasty things. The recitation doesn't change from the Halla's. It continues to blame and accuse the City of malfeasance and they don't accept any responsibility for their own actions, which back in 1994 began all this with the construction of the building. I'm still willing to try and work out some compromise. I understand the need for additional greenhouses. I understand the need for signage on Pioneer Trail and TH 20 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 101. And I understand the need to address your clients as well as your employees. I don't want to see you out of business. I think you're a beautiful business out there. It's a great place for you. You add a lot to the community. But I get darn sick of the manner with which you try to negotiate. That's it. Mayor Mancino: Well as the newly elected Mayor let me just say that I don't have a lot of history, like Councilman Engel with this. I can say that I feel that we are 99% there. We have a stipulation. We have an exhibit. We've gone through executive session. We have tried as a Council, our intent has been to make sure that Halla Nursery keeps on. That it is a growing business and that we want it here in Chanhassen. I am an avid gardener. I go there all the time. I want this put to rest. I want it put to rest quickly. And I would like Roger to please say one more time what the added changes in this document are from our executive session so that we can have a motion and go ahead and vote on this and get this to rest. Roger Knutson: At the executive session, two changes to the document before you with the revision date of 1/21/97. Put forward there on page 6. Paragraph, excuse me, page 7. Yeah, page 6, paragraph 6. With the addition A(5). Paragraph A(5). And I'll read it. One highway directional sign will be placed on the southeast quadrant of the intersection of Highway 101 and Pioneer. The sign content shall be limited to Halla Nurseries and directions. The sign may not exceed 8 feet in height and 72 square feet in size per sign face. The sign may have two sign backs. Two sides, back to back or V shaped. The sign shall not be lit. Before erecting the sign a sign permit must be received from the City. The sign must be removed if the lot on which the sign is located is sold. The other change was on page 7, paragraph 9. It would read, public address system. Tenant shall cease and desist the use of a public address system or other sound amplification devices that may be heard outside a building effective immediately. Those are the only changes from that draft. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you very much. May I have a motion please? Roger Knutson: Excuse me. And on the site plan, two changes. One, the dimension of all buildings shall be indicated. And two, the future greenhouses shall show a 20 foot separation from all other existing buildings. Or from all other buildings. Mayor Mancino: And I am to understand from this stipulation on page 5(d), expansion of nursery. The buildings and outdoor areas where nursery activities are permitted may not be expanded or relocated on the subject property, Exhibit A, without the prior written approval of the City Council. So at any time in the future the Halla's may come back in and ask for City Council approval for expansion. Roger Knutson: They can always ask to come back and ask you to amend this document to allow them to do additional greenhouses, or for that matter anything else. Mayor Mancino: Okay. And that is throughout this document so at any point, or at any time if the Halla's so wish to, that is stipulated in here. So there is nothing that just puts the door down. Councilman Berquist: That does not limit greenhouses to the E and C areas. That also then allows it to be explored in the areas denoted R. Roger Knutson: That's correct. If this Council approves it, in it's discretion. 21 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: And there is nothing that this City Council is doing tonight or in this stipulation which asks Halla to destroy anything that they have right now. Everything that they have right now will be there and it will be expanded, correct? Roger Knutson: I believe that's correct with the possible exception of some signs. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. May I have a motion please? Councilman Berquist: I would move approval of the proposal as stated. Councilman Mason: With the additions by Council? With the changes by Council as per executive session? Councilman Berquist: I accept that. Mayor Mancino: Is there a second? Councilman Mason: I will second that motion. Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Mason seconded that the City Council accept the Stipulation for Halla Nursery as amended per executive session. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Mancino: Now this goes on and is written and is this submitted to the Halla's for their review? Roger Knutson: Yes. We will have it retyped tomorrow and it will be furnished to them. Mayor Mancino: To review and sign. Roger Knutson: That is correct. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you very much. UPDATE ON U.S. POSTAL SERVICE CARRIER ANNEX (VERBAL UPDATE BY CITY ATTORNEY). Mayor Mancino: Mr. Knutson, would you like to give us an update? Roger Knutson: I'll give you, Mayor, members of the Council. I provided you, just before this evening's meeting started a copy of an update from the postal service addressed to one of my partners, Tom Scott, which we received in today's mail. Two items of significance. First, the contract with Mr. Braslau which you requested, is attached so you have that to review. And second, they were supposed to get us the sound study by Friday. Unfortunately Mr. Braslau's brother died. Lived out east. He had to leave for the funeral so things happen. And so the deadline is going to slip by one week. They will have it to us by Friday, and have every reason to believe that's the case. This coming Friday. That is the nutshell, except for that one week slip on getting the sound report to us, they are on track. Mayor Mancino: That had nothing to do with the U.S. Postal Service itself. 22 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Roger Knutson: No, that was Mr. Braslau and it couldn't be helped. Unless there's questions, that's all I have. Mayor Mancino: Are there any questions for Roger at this time from Council members, before I open it to the public. I have none just because I'm going to have to sit and look at it and read it. I was just going to ask. Is there anyone from the audience who would like to address the Council at this point? Or ask any questions? If you could please state your name and address. Bob Beduhn: My name's Bob Beduhn. I live at 1798 Valley Ridge Trail North in Chanhassen. I live adjacent to the postal service property. I haven't, obviously haven't had a chance to review any of these documents. I understand you know a death in the family. I guess I just want to reiterate, I have another neighbor here but we just want to make sure that the Council is aware that we're all still very interested in the results of the study and want to make sure proper action is taken. Again, I'd just like to reiterate it seems like the postal service carefully times their submittals to us to occur the day, the last minute, right before the Council meeting which does not give citizens or staff, or I don't believe anybody really a chance to review this and ask intelligent questions so now we have to delay. I cannot provide you any comments tonight regarding my opinion as to the thoroughness of the study or those sorts of things which are things I'd like to be able to give some input to, so I'd like to reserve an opportunity to present written comments to the Council this week. Mayor Mancino: That's fine. That would be exactly, because we need to read it too. You're right and we haven't had a chance to read it and we will be meeting in a work session Bob on February 3rd and of course this will come at our next Council meeting on the 10th. And we will hopefully be able to have Mr. Braslau's study next Friday so we can mail that to councilmembers and to Bob prior to the February l0th meeting, so you can have some time to review. Bob Beduhn: So we can ask some intelligent questions rather than trying to read through all this at the last minute. Mayor Mancino: That's a good comment. Bob Beduhn: Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Appreciate it. PROPOSED WATER RATE INCREASE. Don Ashworth: The City Council tabled action on this item from our last meeting asking for kind of an analysis of revenue versus expense from the utility system. I thought Pam Snell, our Finance Director did an excellent job in showing net income has decreased from 1994 of $201,000.00 to $100,000.00 in '95 to minus $1,400.00 closed estimated for 1996. And unless a change is made it will move to a minus $100,000.00 by the end of 1997. The raise, the increase proposed to be approximately 4.8% on the average utility property owner's bill and is hereby recommended. Mayor Mancino: Comments and questions from councilmembers. Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: None. 23 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: None. Mayor Mancino: I just have a couple comments. I just want to make sure that this is, it passes the fairness test and to me that means that the true cost every year are being passed along to residents. We're not trying to plan ahead for 2 years at a time. That it will be done on a year by year basis. If there are water rate increases. Don Ashworth: Okay .... able to respond to your question, and it was my recollection that. Mayor Mancino: Is that what the 4.8% would do Don? Don Ashworth: That's what I'm trying to look back to see... Tell you what. Could you table this item to let's say one of the later items in the agenda so I can go through an analysis and tell you how much total dollars and therefore we know how soon this thing might have to be coming back to the City Council. Mayor Mancino: Yes. Do any councilmembers have a problem with tabling it and putting it on the last item on the agenda? Councilman Mason: So moved. Councilman Engel: Second. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Engel seconded to table the proposed water rate increase until later in the agenda. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER MODIFYING TAX INCREMENT FINANCING AGREEMENT WITH SCHOOL DISTRICT 112. Don Ashworth: When the School District went through the referendum process to build the new high school and elementary school, they recognized that that referendum would actually create additional dollars within the city's tax increment district. It simply recognizes the fact that if you have two businesses, one in a tax increment district and one outside, if there's a general increase that occurs, let's say for school purposes, that both of those businesses will be seeing that amount and therefore create a windfall basically back for the HRA over and above what had been anticipated when the HRA plan was developed and it was looked at in terms of the total dollars that would be needed by the HRA to do the various projects and the money that it would have coming in. And again if during that timeframe taxes were increased by an outside entity such as a school district, that again would create this windfall back to the HRA. The agreement reached between the School District and the City and the HRA was really one that yes, those dollars should take and go back to the School District. The School District took those statements into account when it sold the referendum. When it presented the referendum in 1993. And they developed a schedule under which reimbursements would go back to them and basically the structuring the bond issue itself that would take into account those increases. Unfortunately what actually occurred was that the amount of increase, and I think all of us as taxpayers like this, but what they had anticipated might be 13-14% actually came in closer to 7. Approximately half of what they had anticipated actually creating. That has created a problem for them, and even though the agreement on the cost sharing basically occurred in 1992 for a referendum of 24 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 1993, they have requested that the City HRA consider restarting the world to kind of the 1988-1989 time frame, which were two dates where the School District had also brought back referendums and both of those were successful and both were for operations. And they used the position that the HRA, number one those are all true statements. They have generated those additional amounts. And the fact that the projections used by the Housing and Redevelopment Authority have continued to be based on the higher amount that they had set in their referendum. As these dollars are available to the school district, as they truly did generate these additional dollars from the three referendums, '88, '89 and 1992, staff is basically recommending that the City Council, HRA approve the original schedule that both parties had agreed to, even though it's slightly different than what we had agreed to in 1992. I hope I didn't thoroughly confuse you. Mayor Mancino: Did everyone out in the audience understand that? Councilman Mason: Unfortunately I did understand most of that. Mayor Mancino: That's kind of scary. Let me ask the question. Are they going to come back and ask to go back further than 1988 or 19897 Councilman Mason: I think at some point the City would probably say no to that. Don Ashworth: Well the schedule we're showing is the, out of the HRA's projections, and quite truthfully if you look in the year 2000, the number of dollars available to the HRA are zero so I mean if you go over that schedule, HRA goes into a deficit position so that is the reason I wrote the ending recommendation the way I did and that is I would recommend that the HRA, it should have been HRA/City, agree to making future payments to the school district in accordance with the schedule shown on scenario A so long as the amount of increment generated by the district was greater than the difference between the current levy and the base year of 50, which is year 1990. Mayor Mancino: Does this benefit the property owners in the District 112 at all? Don Ashworth: Oh definitely and especially as it deals with, this does represent a payment back over to the School District of roughly $500,000.00 per year and further it's a major commitment because with our agreeing to this, the City of Chaska will also agree and they will also pay an additional $500,000.00 per year to the, actually their payment will be higher. Their payment will be almost $800,000.00 per year. So basically they go through like 2007. You're looking to the taxpayers benefiting in the tune of close to $10 million. Mayor Mancino: Any other questions? Councilman Berquist: And that is the primary reason that we're amending our agreement is so that the Chaska, the district that will not expire in 1999 but the district that expires in 2005 will continue to fund the district. District 112 1 guess. Don Ashworth: Right. Councilman Berquist: Really it's more of a bookkeeping thing as far as we're concerned, although your use of the word anticipate any significant effect on the HRA. Our HRA is a little bit nebulous. But the point is that this is primarily being done so that Chaska's districts will continue to fund... 25 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Don Ashworth: That's correct. Right. And again if we would use that 1992 base, it would not only drop the amount for Chanhassen but also significantly change it for Chaska. Councilman Berquist: And Nancy just said something. Mayor Mancino: I just said, well I mean we could have two different agreements. One for Chaska, one for Chanhassen. I mean that's always a possibility too. Don Ashworth: Chaska City Council will not support that. For some reason they want the agreement to be the same between the two cities. Mayor Mancino: And as long as we feel comfortable with it this way and we feel it's right and just and prudent for Chanhassen, then that's all we need to keep our eyes on. Councilman Engel, any questions on this? Councilman Engel: No. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Mason? Councilman Mason: None. Mayor Mancino: Any comments from the HRA and their feelings on this? Councilman Mason: HRA also supports this agreement as it's stated. Mayor Mancino: Then may I have a motion please. Councilman Berquist: I would move that we approve the excess levy distribution agreement between the Housing and Redevelopment Authority and the City of Chanhassen and Independent School District # 112 as outlined within the staff report. Mayor Mancino: Is there a second? Councilman Engel: Second. Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Engel seconded that the HRA/City Council agree to making future payments to School District #112 in accordance with the schedule shown on Scenario A so long as the amount of increment generated by the School District is greater than the difference between the current levy and the base year levy of 51.6. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ESTABLISH 1997 CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION DATES AND TIMES. Mayor Mancino: Any comments from Council members on the work session schedule? Anything that you see that you would like added to it? Times that you know right now you can't make. Councilman Berquist: On March 3rd I think I'm going to be out of town. Back about April 21st. 26 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Councilman Mason: ... I'm not sure, I might have a conflict with the 31st but. Mayor Mancino: Well I think what we'll do is we'll put this in the packet every week and then on February 3rd during our work session we will start filling in what we want to accomplish. What we have on for each work session. Councilman Mason: That's very helpful. Mayor Mancino: Great. I don't think there's really anything to approve here. Only that we will continue doing that. Councilman Berquist: How many applicants do we have for Planning and Public Safety? Kate Aanenson: The openings, you'll be interviewing on the 3rd three to replace Commissioner Mancino, who is now Mayor. Then Jeff Farmakes has asked not to be reappointed. The other vacancy would be Alison. She's only been on for two months so she will ask to be reappointed. And the ordinance says you don't have to interview if you're just being asked to be reappointed. At least the Planning Commission doesn't. Councilman Berquist: Did Alison fill, yeah that's right. She filled a resignation. Kate Aanenson: Right so. Mayor Mancino: You interviewed me. Kate Aanenson: ... advertising for one and I'm going to write a report to you and give you some recommendations from your February 3rd interviews. Some alternatives but we will have an opening as of April 1st. Mayor Mancino: Good, thank you. Councilman Berquist: And Public Safety, do you know? Kate Aanenson: I'm not aware of how many there are. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: PROPOSED BILL PROVIDING FOR A PROPERTY TAX FREEZE FOR HOMEOWNERS AGED 65 AND OLDER~ COUNCILMAN BERQUIST. Councilman Berquist: Attorney Knutson, you distributed this and I just read it during the session upstairs a little bit ago. Give me the short version and then tell me how we can implement it. I mean I don't see anything in the statutes that you cite that preclude us from doing what we want to do. Roger Knutson: You asked me to be very brief last time when I put my comments in a letter to you, so I was brief. Maybe to the point of being too cryptic. I apologize for that. We're concerned that the issue has been pre-empted by State law and we're concerned that there's so specific authority to allow us to do 27 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 this. If we choose to do it, we can put it into an ordinance. An alternative to a city ordinance would be special legislation specifically authorizing you to do this. A local bill. Councilman Berquist: May I just ask you a couple of questions? You cite, I don't know what statute but paraphrasing. The City has no authority to determine what property is taxable nor in what proportions or amounts. We're not really determining the taxability of a property nor are we determining the proportion or the amount. We're simply determining, in my opinion, we're making a decision to alter the amount that we choose to accept. Mayor Mancino: That's a graceful way to put that. I don't know if it's legal but sounds good to me. But then we would be, you know it has to do with the amount of taxes. Councilman Berquist: Well we're not saying that you don't collect it. I think that's integral to the statute. We're not saying, the statute provides the authority to collect and in the quantities required. The taxing body has to keep it or accept it. Councilman Engel: Is there such a thing as a turn back in this area, or does that not apply in this arena? Roger Knutson: I guess the closest analogy, and it's not a good one, is kind of like a mini fiscal disparities bill or something. What you're doing is you're shifting the tax burden. Councilman Berquist: I agree with that. In fact we are. Mayor Mancino: And we don't have that authority. Roger Knutson: Again my letter was very cryptic. You didn't want me to spend a lot of time on it. This is a difficult subject to speak on. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Is this something that we could go ahead with our Representative Workman? Roger Knutson: Certainly. Mayor Mancino: Get him in here and speaking with us on the ability to provide a tax freeze for homeowners aged 65 and older who qualify on fixed incomes. Roger Knutson: Certainly, Representative Workman carried a bill for the City I believe it was two years ago. Successfully. On a totally unrelated subject. So that is certainly something that can. Councilman Berquist: Specific to the City or was it statewide? Roger Knutson: Yes. Councilman Berquist: Specific to the City? Roger Knutson: Specific to the City. It exempted us from certain bidding requirements for playground equipment. Councilman Berquist: I'm sorry, say that again? 28 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Roger Knutson: It exempted us from the State bidding requirements for playground equipment. When you go out to buy playground equipment, it's almost impossible to write specs with the fancy stuff they have out there now. Councilman Berquist: The best case if, it'd be interesting to follow this thing through the legislature and see if it has any merit statewide. See what happens from there. I'm certainly not, the problem is statewide. The problem isn't relative only to Chanhassen. Roger Knutson: I would just note the obvious. It's much more difficult to get a bill passed in a statewide application because you have all sorts of competing interests and you know the process where, you get this and I get something else and it's a much more elaborate process than a bill that's just germane to one city. Councilman Berquist: So he could tell us what would be the best tact to take, whether it'd be statewide or. Roger Knutson: Certainly. Councilman Berquist: Applicable to Chanhassen only. I mean the issue is fairness again in my opinion, as we were just talking earlier. Mayor Mancino: In fact why don't we invite him to the February 18th work session at 5:30 and put that on the agenda. February 18th, a Tuesday. You won't be here? Councilman Mason: I can't. I coach basketball on Tuesdays. Mayor Mancino: What about on, and you're not going to be here on March 3rd? Councilman Berquist: Sorry, right. Mayor Mancino: Well if you don't mind Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: Oh no, no, that's fine. Mayor Mancino: Would you mind if we went ahead? Councilman Mason: Oh, please do. I mean I'm certainly interested in this and if he can come in on that, yeah. Mayor Mancino: Okay. So let's put that on February 18th and we'll talk to Mr. Ashworth about putting this, getting us an updated copy of this schedule for our February 3rd work schedule. Does that work for you? Councilman Berquist: That's fine. I'm just wondering if maybe we don't want to ask Ed Oliver to come along. Mayor Mancino: That's a good idea. Okay. 29 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Councilman Mason: Although if that's a tax bill it would come from the House anyway, wouldn't it? I mean I'm sure Senator Oliver could add some input but wouldn't legislation like that have to come out of the House? Councilman Berquist: I don't know. Mayor Mancino: But at least he could give us some good input. Councilman Mason: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the way it works but yeah. Yeah, it'd be good to get his input as well. Councilman Berquist: Well then my presentation is complete. I'm a little bit surprised at Don's numbers. Don Ashworth: I think that they're high. Councilman Berquist: I think they are too. Don Ashworth: ... probably divide them by 4. Or a fourth of that. Mayor Mancino: Let's have those ready for the work session. Okay, good. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: SENIOR CENTER CONGREGATE DINING, PLANNING DIRECTOR. Kate Aanenson: I wanted to bring this to your attention because we're getting close to go out to bid. We have prepared, had them draw up the kitchen itself. As you recall, Hennepin County has changed the regulations for what we can use our Community Development Block Grant. We were able to put the $100,000.00 towards congregate dining in the future. Any money that we allocate now has to go towards effectuating affordable housing so we've gotten confirmation that we're in the $50,000.00 and plus bracket. You may not recall, if we're under 50 we're in this pool that other communities could apply for so we are kind of our own entitlement where we can apply that money. So we felt this was our best opportunity to take this money and use it towards congregate dining because any time in the future we wouldn't have that large of a pool money. In putting the bid package together, we're excited about the designer that we had in laying out the space and using the existing seating area that's in there now. It's going to cause some complications. The good news is that the senior center is just continuing to grow in it's use and demand, which is exciting. With the housing that's fully rented out. So in putting this together we were hoping that we would actually come under the $100,000.00 and we may be able to finish off some additional space down there to tie into the congregate dining. As it tums out, the demand for the heating and ventilating, because we do have to have air conditioning down there, and that air conditioning is actually going to carry a larger area. It's really added a large expense to it so it really pretty much took the $100,000.00 and some. That's just their estimate. Obviously you'll have to approve the bid package. I've spoken to the City Manager and we're hoping that that number will come closer and that there will be an opportunity for the City to bridge that gap in order to make this accomplished because this again is our only opportunity to apply this money so we will come back to you with the bid package. I want to give you an opportunity to see the space laid out. There are some members of the Senior Commission here if you had any questions. If any one of you wanted to kind of walk through the space as it's laid out and how that 30 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 whole system works, I'd be happy to do that with you but I just wanted to let you know, this is for your information and we'll be bringing back the, well we'll need to award the bids so we can see that. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions for Kate at this point from Council members? Councilman Mason: Just a real quick comment. I know it's not always possible but it's nice to see this stuff ahead of time. To be able to digest it and have some time to think about what's happening before we get the shock. No, thanks. Thank you. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Berquist. Councilman Berquist: Where'd the mechanical numbers come from? Kate Aanenson: ... was the, I paid them to do the design so they're the ones that came up, and they did the City Hall design so we incorporated it into that. Councilman Berquist: Who was it? Kate Aanenson: Kasamme and Associates. It's the same one that did the design, or the bid package for City Hall. Councilman Berquist: 100 grand was the budget right? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Councilman Berquist: We're about 190. Kate Aanenson: No. Mayor Mancino: 117. Kate Aanenson: 117. Councilman Berquist: That's just for the kitchen. Didn't that 100 include the dining and the rest rooms as well? Kate Aanenson: No, that was just additional. We wanted to finish off. Originally, I didn't realize that the heating and ventilating would be so much so I asked them to see what we could finish off additional space because there's so much demand on the senior center. That seating area right now. If we could provide some other seating area or some other rooms that the seniors could be using that weren't used in the congregate dining. So that was just for your information. If we want to finish off additional space, what it would cost. Councilman Berquist: Where have you got, I'm looking at. Kate Aanenson: First column. 31 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Councilman Berquist: Yeah, I know that but I'm looking at the numbers and I'm seeing a different, appliances, including the exhaust hoods. Is that all in, all in the equipment? Kate Aanenson: That's just your equipment bid. Councilman Berquist: Okay, but the exhaust bids and what not are in equipment. Kate Aanenson: That's all equipment. Councilman Berquist: I think the mechanical number is real steep. Kate Aanenson: I'm hoping but with that type of commercial kitchen, yeah. Councilman Berquist: I know it. Kate Aanenson: Well that's what I'm hoping. That's what they've given me as a preliminary number to put in there. Mayor Mancino: Couldn't we cut down on air conditioning on that bottom level? I mean. Councilman Berquist: There's nothing that says you have to air condition the bottom level. All you have to do is... Kate Aanenson: Well with the dishwasher and the stove, I've been told it'd be very difficult, very miserable in that space. Mayor Mancino: Is there any way just to air condition that area, which produces the heat? Kate Aanenson: Well I think in economies of scale, if we're looking at finishing off that space, it makes some sense and that's why I guess when we come back to that point.., we'll examine those options but I want you to be aware of the situation because I think if you're looking at economies of scale, if we eventually finish off that space or something and we want one unit there and not to come back and put another one up there. So although this is carrying some of the weight of the future expansion, the City Hall expansion has also provided some of the services for this so they kind of are helping each other. But I'll certainly bring that back for your consideration with some alternatives but I want you to be aware of, there's a gap right now. Hopefully we can narrow that down. Mayor Mancino: Sure, and no question that I'd like to come in on budget. $100,000.00, not $117,000.00. Kate Aanenson: No, this was just an FYI. I just wanted you to be aware of it. Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. 1997 WATER QUALITY IMPROVEMENT PROJECTS~ WATER RESOURCES COORDINATOR. Philip Elkin: Thank you Mayor Mancino. I guess I haven't been before the Council here very much so I thought it was important to get here. Introduce myself. I'm Philip Elkin. I'm the Water Resources 32 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Coordinator. I've met you on other occasions but this is the first time I've had to address the Council on something that was my project. Something that wasn't the former Water Resources Coordinator's carry over project from last year. The direction I've taken this year's water quality improvement projects for the Surface Water Management Fund is to do priority projects that are outlined in the Surface Water Management Plan in the watershed of Lake Minnewashta. These are mostly projects on the northern edge of the lake where there's a lot of developed areas. That there's very little room for ponds, or there's very little room for water quality treatment where the stormwater just hits a pipe and goes straight into the lake. As part of that, in October I sent out requests for proposals for consulting engineering firms to do this work. A lot of it is already outlined in the Surface Water Management Plan. The pond size, location, the phosphorus concentrations in and out of the ponds. So I sent it out to four firms, Bonestroo, BRW, MSA and OSM. All have done work with the City before, except MSA. I added MSA and OSM hasn't done any water quality and I added both of those. They're really, we're in the drivers seat here really with these water quality projects. A lot of firms want to get experience doing the work and there's very little cities that are taking a progressive approach like Chanhassen in taking the initiative and going ahead and building these ponds rather than waiting for another state agency to force them to be made so. It's going to be a big issue in the future and so I thought we could use this to our advantage and get really competitive bids so I opened it up to other firms that might not, you know didn't have a lot of experience in that. And the result was that, after looking at all the proposals I chose MSA to be the consultant. Their bid at $17,560.00 was the lowest of the four bids. Mayor Mancino: What did they range from? What did the bids go from? Philip Elkin: They ranged from the highest was $77,000.00. Mayor Mancino: For the same project? Philip Elkin: For the same project. Councilman Engel: Are you sure they had the same understanding as the guy that big 177 Philip Elkin: The direction I gave them was look at the surface water management plan and in the surface water management plan it outlines, I have it all here if you're interested. It outlines. Mayor Mancino: I'm glad you got four bids. Philip Elkin: Yes, okay. They had written the plan, the next lowest bid was $70,000.00 and OSM came in at $53,000.00, but I don't think that anyone, besides MSA, really looked at what was in the SWMP Plan because these projects are outlined. There's a paragraph written about each one. They go through ponding costs. Pond size. The whole watershed has been determined and is on a computer program. I was, and I thought that, when I originally put this together, after looking through the plan and see what the estimated costs were, I thought this would be around $25,000.00 to $30,000.00 would be the winning bid. And I was really disappointed with the three high bids. OSM I thought was right on there with, they were close to what I thought it was going to be but when I read through their proposal they had estimated construction costs of $400,000.00 and I thought, you know it was clear to me that they didn't thoroughly understand what was going on here. And especially Bonestroo who wrote the plan. I just don't, I don't understand it. I think struggled a lot because MSA doesn't have a lot of experience. They don't have the staff that a Bonestroo has.., the wetland specialist as far as the plantings and, they have a larger environmental staff at Bonestroo but I think in MSA I have a company that wants to do a good job and they're willing to take a 33 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 hit and do it. And I think they really want to do a good job for the City of Chanhassen too so, because they're looking for more work in the city so. Mayor Mancino: And you feel comfortable, is what I'm hearing you say. Philip Elkin: I feel comfortable working with them, yes. I guess the bottom line here is, this is, these are my projects. This is where I'm going to make my mark in the city and I have to be comfortable with the people I'm selecting, that I'm going to be working with and I have to feel confident with them. Otherwise I'll be up here next year at this time, without a smile on my face, that's right. Mayor Mancino: So you're going to be supervising and watching over the project and the consultants, the subcontractors that you hire? Philip Elkin: Right. Where I saw these, the one in particular project similar to this break down last year was, we had a consultant with an extensive work plan, extensive authority and I let him run the project and I think the project fell apart when the homeowner was dealing with a consultant who was dealing with, you know the City attorney and then dealing with me rather than someone from the city coming out to them and say hey look. What do you want? Just one on one, talking to them rather than, we had to set up a meeting for four people and it would take a month and we'd resolve some issues and then it would take another month and then there was snowfall by the time we finally got to some agreement so I'm going to have to be very involved in these projects, you know spearheading them and that's the way I'm looking at getting them done so. I just added on here other areas of the surface water management plan that quickly, what we're looking to accomplish in 1997. As far as the lakes go, trying to, we'll be finishing up Lake Lucy, Lake Ann, Lake Susan, Rice Marsh Lake and St. Joe management plans. We want to continue trying to promote aqua spacing. More lake friendly shorelines practice from the riparian lake owners. Wetlands, we're working with the Board of Soil and Water Resources to come up with our own city specific wetland laws and wetland rules. BOWSER currently oversees what we do right now and just getting a plan together would break us free from the State and we would be able to write our own rules for the wetlands. And also as you know, the Bluff Creek Management Plan. Working on implementing that with the Watershed District and working with the grant money that we already have so with that. Mayor Mancino: Good, any questions? Councilman Berquist: Yeah I've got one. I just want to understand the scope of this. What we're hiring MSA, what's that acronym for? Philip Elkin: Meyer, Stewart and Associates. Two names. Councilman Berquist: What we're hiring them to do is to design and oversee the construction of high water treatment ponds? Philip Elkin: Right. What we're hiring them to do is all the engineering, they would do the modeling. They would do the plans and specs. Legal descriptions. Permitting. Construction administration. Field inspections. Staking. Tests. Councilman Berquist: All right. You said that OSM's number was $53,000.00 and they had $400,000.00 worth of estimated construction costs to put those five ponds up right? Or in, or down. Put those five ponds down. 34 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Philip Elkin: Right. Councilman Berquist: What's MSA's estimated construction cost? Philip Elkin: Theirs was based on what is in the Surface Water Management Plan, which is $95,000.00. It was not part of the bid to come up with an estimated construction cost. They just added that as a. Councilman Berquist: Okay, the $95,000.00 was contained within the report so it'd already been done and were supplied as part of the bid package. Philip Elkin: Right. Councilman Berquist: Why did OSM come in with a $400,000.00? You just think they didn't read it? Philip Elkin: I think they didn't read it. Councilman Berquist: Did BRW and Bonestroo throw any estimated costs? Philip Elkin: No, no. Not in there. Councilman Berquist: Bonestroo say $95,000.00 and $77,000.00 worth of consulting? Philip Elkin: That's, yeah. I don't know what to say on that. You know I was prepared to defend myself against them tonight but, because they really have, in the last couple days, or the last couple working days, made it known that they're upset with not getting it so, okay I'll stop. Councilman Berquist: What's their rationale for being upset? Philip Elkin: Stop. I can tell you what I know and I don't know what to say. I don't know. Councilman Berquist: They feel they're owed the business? Mayor Mancino: Okay, let's move on. I have one question Philip that you could certainly give to us at a later date. If you could put in the administrative section. I talked to Mark Senn, he had a couple questions. One of them was, that there has been the last 5 years some money spent on cleaning up Lake Minnewashta and he just wanted to know, he wanted an update on that. Where is it? What has been done? How was the money spent, etc. So it would be wonderful for us to get some of those updates on when we do go ahead with a project, to at the end kind of get an executive summary of what's been done and how well it was done. Thank you. Any other questions at this point? Councilman Mason: My only comment is, good job on opening it up and adding some more bids to keep it competitive. I like the way you're taking responsibility for it and I also like the fact that it sounds like the City got saved some bucks. Mayor Mancino: Big bucks, thank you very much. I agree completely. 35 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Councilman Berquist: Pardon me. One last quick question Phil. When you figured that we were going to spend $25 grand on this. I was just going to ask you what your budget was but I think you already said Philip Elkin: No, I had. Yes I had figured right around 25-30. I had put $150,000.00 when I put my budget together on these specific lake projects. That could change. We could expand the scope, depending on how many we can get built and we also may be getting money from other sources statewide so. Kate Aanenson: What we've learned in the past is sometimes you're ready to go on a project and something happens. You can't get any.., you go where people want the projects done and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to do water quality projects... Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Councilman Engel: I want to add one thing Nancy and that is, this is not an attack on your job Phil. Okay, I'm fairly new and when I see things like Water Resources Coordinator, the first question that comes to my mind is, what do we do with a Water Resources Coordinator? When I see Tree Specialist, I say what do we do with a Tree Specialist? And admittedly I'm new. Maybe we need these way more than I'll ever know. But from a citizen standpoint, many of us who are uninformed, and when I say us I include myself in that because before I ran I read the papers and I still feel I was uninformed about what was going on a lot of times. So if we're going to have these types of positions, doing the type of thing that Mike just complimented you on is absolutely necessary. And when I say opening up to, or Mike says opening up to four bids and keeping the costs down, you'd better be doing things like this with these specialist positions and I'm just saying I'm glad to see you did it because people are going to look at this and they're going to say, what is this Water Resources Coordinator position and I, I'm even on the Council and. Mayor Mancino: And you're going to come back and say, he checks out those bids. Gets the lowest. Councilman Engel: Yep, and then they're going to say, well what do we do with one and I'm not going to be able to tell them entirely. I'm sure I will at some point but for our defense let's make sure we keep doing this. I hope everybody else who's got a specialist job is doing the same thing because I think we're going to be questioned on it as the size of government grows altogether, people complain about taxes. We're going to get taken to task for that so I'm glad you're doing it. I got my two cents worth in. PROPOSED WATER RATE INCREASE. Mayor Mancino: One of the items that we moved to the end of the agenda was the proposed water rate increase. I had asked Mr. Ashworth if he could tell us if this was, I wanted to make sure that it was passing the fairness test and passing on those rate increases every year. Don Ashworth: I was not able to get a hold of Pam but I was confident about my numbers. If this is passed in 1997, the estimate will change from a minus $99,000.00 to somewhere between a plus $5,000.00 and $10,000.00. So in other words, the rate increase that we're looking to will generate approximately $110,000.00. Mayor Mancino: Okay, so we'll be passing along the cost with a little cushion and probably be upping it again if the Metropolitan Council charges us more? 36 City Council Meeting - January 27, 1997 Don Ashworth: It's hard for me to predict really each year. Mayor Mancino: Yes, I understand that but whenever it does come in, we will be able to pass those along. Or we will be looking at it again to pass it along if we need to. Don Ashworth: Right. Or we're not gouging the current customer is another way to say the same thing. Mayor Mancino: May I have a motion then on the water rate increase. Councilman Mason: I will move approval as stated in the staff report. Mayor Mancino: Is there a second? Councilman Engel: Second. Resolution #97-10: Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the proposed water rate increase. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Mancino: There is no other item on the agenda left so this meeting is adjourned. The meeting was adjourned at 9:25 p.m. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 37