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5 Skate Park Policies s - MEMORANDUM CITY OF CHANHASSEN TO: Todd Gerhardt, City Manager Administration Phone: 952.2271100 Fax 952.2271110 SUBJ: Todd Hoffman, Park & Recreation Director June7,2005 ¿J~. Report on Skate Park Policies 7700 Markel Boulevard PO Box 147 Chanhassen, MN55317 FROM: DATE: Finance Phone 952.2271140 Fax: 952.2271110 On Tuesday, May 24, the Park and Recreation Commission held a public meeting to discuss the skate park. This meeting was in response to a resolution adopted by the City Council requesting a plan to curb instances of foul language, excessive litter, and graffiti at the park. Approximately 20 residents attended the meeting offering extensive commentary resulting in 21 pages of verbatim minutes. I will allow the minutes to speak for themselves, but I believe it is fair to say that all the speakers supported the skate park while acknowledging that littering and the use of foul language are issues at the skate park. Building Inspections Phone: 952.22711BO Fax 952.2271190 Engineering Phone: 952.2271160 Fax 952.2271170 Planning & Natural Resources Phone: 952.2271130 Fax: 952.2271110 Staff spent some time compiling a variety of historical documents relating to the skate park, revealing that this is not the first time that conduct issues at the park have been a concern. In 2001, a town meeting similar to the one held two weeks ago was called to discuss problems at the skate park. Both the 200 1 and 2005 meeting drew similar conclusions; the skate park is a valued amenity in our City, the heavy use that it recei ves does result in a large amount of trash being generated, and swearing does take occur at the park. Upon conclusion of citizen input, Commission members discussed their ideas about improving the environment at the skate park, resulting in the following motion: Park & Recreation Phone: 952.2271120 Fax: 952.2271110 Recreation Cen!er 2310 Coulter Boulevard Phone: 952.227.1400 Fax 952.227.1404 Public Works 1591 Park Road Phone: 952.227.1300 Fax: 952.227.1310 "Dillon moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council adopt a four-tier proposal for the skate park, noting that the commission sees the skate park as a significant asset for the community and does not want to see it closed, Senior Center Phone 952.227.1125 Fax: 952.227.1110 1. Re-open the skate park, recognizing that the community has gone through a wake-up period. There are expectations at the skate park, just like at any other park, in that the city would look to the community for increased involvement to make sure that the skate park does remain a desirable location. Web Site www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us 2. If that fails, to solicit formation of a skate park association with both users and parents to monitor the activities of the skate park. The City of Chanhassen . A growing community with clean lakes, quality schools, a charming downtown, thriving businesses, winding trails, and beautiful parks. A greal place to live, work, and play Mr. Todd Gerhardt Skate Park Policies June 7, 2005 Page 2 3. If the skate park association and the city is seeing that their expectations have not been fulfilled, then consider paid staff and potentially a fee at the park. 4. If all of the above items fail, close the skate park altogether. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6toO." CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MAY 24, 2005 Chairman Stolar called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Glenn Stolar, Jack Spizale, Paula Atkins, Steve Scharfenberg, Ann Murphy, and Kevin Dillon MEMBERS ABSENT: Tom Kelly STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Todd Neils Eric Kittelson Rian Thiele Bryant Benzinger Jon Kraus Brandon Bagley Luke Moffatt Marsha Gaulke Ed & Nate Janowski Bob Numrich Todd & Zak Owens Tony Oberstar Elise Dye Ray Hardtse Ryan Sage Anthony Huot ? Tim Woodworth Bob Harold Deb Lloyd Janet Paulsen 990 Saddlebrook Curve Sheriff's Office Sheriff's Office 8581 Mission Hills Lane 8008 Cheyenne A venue 911 Penamint Court Nez Perce Court 890 Saddlebrook Pass 890 Saddlebrook Pass 1321 Lake Drive West #316 6535 Peaceful Lane 2170 Baneberry Way West 18630 Magenta Bay, Eden Prairie 1851 Sunridge Court 930 Powyaki Lane 950 Saddlebrook Trail 425 Chanview Road 7741 Chanhassen Road 7411 Frontier Trail 7302 Laredo Drive 7305 Laredo Drive (Taping of the meeting began at this point in the discussion.) RESPONSE TO CITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION CONCERNING SKATE PARK. Hoffman: ... we have with the skate park that were featured in an article in the Villager Newspaper and also in a couple editorials in the Villager newspaper the week following that. On Monday, May 9th, the same day City Council passed a resolution concerning the city skate park. Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 The park, the skate park has received very heavy use since it's opening in 1999. Approximately 25,000 user visits to the park each year. The issues of foul language, underage smoking, broken glass, litter, graffiti and inappropriate conduct to a certain degree have been present at the park since the day we opened. In doing research for tonight's meeting and for the staff report, which is being distributed. Thanks Jerry. We've gone through these issues in 2001, so just 2 years after the skate park was opened. About the same type of exercise. The park was closed for a short period of time. There were letters to the newspaper talking about the, at that time again the litter is the number one complaint that the city receives, The language and conduct is the second complaint that the city receives. Those same issues were talked about in 2001. There's a variety of potentially remedies that were discussed at that time and the park was re-opened and continued to operate until 2005 when we started this spring with the vandalism incident which has prompted these discussions. Chairman Stolar and I met. Held a preliminary conversation. We have some ideas but I think it's most appropriate at this time to hear from the audience and the deputies that are here for this this evening. The deputies deal with this on a daily basis and I can tell you from 5 years to 6 years of having conversations with them, although they would like to have more time to stop at the skate park and interact with the kids, we have a limited contract with Carver County that provides a certain level of base level service, and unfortunately the skate park is not at the top of their list. They have much more pressing issues to go deal with on a daily basis.. .so although when there's incidents at the skate park we all, or many of the people in this community think it should be a law enforcement issue. It's not reasonable to think that law enforcement is going to solve the problems at the skate park. They can certainly assist but they can't be there.. .of the day so Chair Stolar, I'll turn it over to you and you can go through the visitor presentations. . , Stolar: Without objection, may we open it for our visitors? Okay. What I'd like to do is intermix this a little bit so if the sheriff's department people wouldn't mind, I'd like to have one of our guests go first and then ask you to come and join us. Okay, does one of the guests wish to make a statement? If you would, state your name and address. Bryant Benzinger: I'm Bryant Benzinger. I live in Chanhassen, 8581 Mission Hills Lane. Skate park, I think it's a great place. I mean there's like kids, I go down and you think that there's just hoodlums a lot of adults, I know that go down there, but in the past there's been a lot of trash and stuff and they ask us to take care of that last year. There was probably trash up to my knees, Now we took care of that and if you notice there's not that much trash like there used to be last year. There's a lot of good kids that go down there and the park is like more a place for people to stay out of trouble. I know cops and police officers asked us to not street skate, so they point to the park to go. Where are we going to go if the park's closed? A lot of people instead of damaging other property and getting in trouble and vandalizing, when the park opened when I started going up there was about 4 years ago and it's been a pretty good place for me to go instead of spending my time on the streets going other places and doing whatever. I go up there instead to skate. And learn a lot of good things. Teach other. Sharing and stuff. Taking turns on the ramps you know. Stolar: Thank you, that's it? Thank you very much. Would you like to make a statement? Do you want to come forth? 2 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Eric Kittelson: Hi, I'm Eric Kittelson. Currently the evening supervisor in Chanhassen. I'm here in place of Sergeant Jim Olson who couldn't be here tonight. Skate park and skating are always kind of a hot issue no matter where you go. I have worked in other cities that don't have skate parks and we certainly spend a lot more of our time dealing with skaters and as the young man before me said, we tell them they can't skate there and they ask us where they can skate and generally speaking there isn't a good place for them to skate. Since I've worked here, we have relatively little calls of kids skateboarding other places. Generally speaking the only two areas that really concern me are the new library area and the park there, especially because of the nature of the damage those skateboards do to that stone work and the area near Subway and Spalon Montage, because there's a rail there that apparently likes to get ridden occasionally, which is extremely dangerous because that corner, cars come around that corner and cannot see them. Looking at the resolution and the different items, there certainly should be some more discussion. Some of the things that I would like to be involved in possibly further discussions are the fee I don't think is a bad idea. Many kids in many other cities pay a fee to go to a city pool each summer, and certainly several dollars for a day pass or weekend pass or for a summer pass I don't think is too much to ask and it certainly does, because the majority of the calls that we get are not from the diehard skateboarders, and there's certainly a stigma attached to the skateboarders and the way they dress and the way they look. It's not the diehard skateboarders that are the issue. It's the fringe element that hang around the skate park. Most of our calls for marijuana usage or foul language or littering and the different things are the kids who are hanging out in their cars outside of the skate park or on the picnic tables at the skate park that don't own a skateboard and have never owned a skateboard, so if some type of fee could be imposed that would allow there to be some type of staffing there to check passes or to maintain some kind of behavior, I think that could be very effective. The JSA W is also in the community. We've never had any calls there but it's staffed by older youth, 16-17 year old high school kids or by adults and other than some again issues that we had with the radio tower site near there which was again some kids that were hanging out with, you know kind of in that area. I don't know that they were necessarily involved with that, but JSA W seems to run pretty effectively with supervision and it's also more of an industrial area so it's not quite as visible to the public but. And the other thing that I think would, it would be useful to have some further discussion on is an ordinance regarding skateboarding. Waconia, where I first started working has a very effective ordinance. There is no skateboarding in the downtown business district, and it's clearly defined in the city ordinance that you cannot skateboard in the 6 block area and I think, in addition to that, it's more of a city ordinance in that we don't have to deal with it in a criminal manner. We impounded the skateboards in Waconia. We stored them at city hall and the parents had to come with the child to pick it up and it was a $25 fee to get it back. I never impounded a skateboard from a single child 2 times, so it's pretty clear right away that because that is, and you talk about behavior that's associated around the skate park. It's not always criminal in nature unless the disorderliness is just to such an extent that yeah, we're going to issue them a citation for disorderly conduct. It's usually kind of that... behavior where yeah, there's some swearing going on but it's not to the level of something that we can necessarily enforce in a criminal manner so, and it can certainly be that anyone that was around the skate park or in the skate park that was acting in that manner could have their skateboard impounded, confiscated. They would have to come and pay a civil fee, It's not too much unlike the tobacco civil citations that we used to do for smoking. You know I think they had 10 days to come to city hall and pay for that. If they didn't pay it within 10 days, then it turned into a criminal 3 :1 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 citation. It was referred to the county attorney so. Other than those 2 things, that's really all I have. I guess in addition to that, you know we don't get a lot more calls to the skate park than we do to Lake Ann, and if you think of the size of Lake Ann, we get calls there also except for it's not as visible because unless you're actually in the park, it's just the other people in the park. The skate park is very visible to people in the downtown area. So if you look at the number of calls for service based on this is another city park compared to some of the other parks, especially North Lotus Lake, it's actually probably not that bad. And it certainly helps us because we know where they all are. You know they're in one spot so, and it has helped us in the past when we are looking for someone who we need to find, we can usually either look at the skate park or ask the kids at the skate park so I think the people that are here today that are really into skateboarding obviously the fact that they took their time to come out here tonight is they're not our problem. And if we can restrict the use to people who are into skateboarding and treat it like a sport, just like mountain biking or anything else, and keep that fringe element away that just wants to hang out there for something to do, I think the fees and possibly some type of ordinance that allows us to actually enact and take a skateboard away I think would be very successful. Stolar: Thank you very much. If you don't mind waiting one second. Are there any questions the commissioners had? Spizale: I've got one question. So you're basically saying that a lot of the problems are from people that are hanging on the edges of the skate park. Eric Kittelson: Yeah. Spizale: Not exactly in it but hanging around the sides of it so to speak. Eric Kittelson: Pretty much I can say almost 100% any call I've had there regarding behavior has been from someone who does not have a skateboard with them. Whether they're inside the skate park, sitting on the picnic table just kind of watching or hanging out, or if they're in their car out front of the skate park. It generally has not ever been the kids that are actually there to skate. Because they do take it pretty seriously and like I said, it's no different than rollerblading or bicycling or anything of that nature. They treat it as a sport and the people that are into it, they put a lot of time into it and they're generally not the kids that we have problems with. Just the ones that are there to either watch or hang out there that aren't involved in the actual skating. Stolar: Okay, thanks. Scharfenberg: Would you envision somebody just kind of a park time person out there kind of monitoring, because you talked about kind of a part time person during certain hours? Eric Kittelson: Yeah, I think we would have to start with targeting certain hours. Friday- Saturday evenings. Maybe Saturday day. Holiday weekends. Things of that nature. No different than the lifeguards or anyone else that we hire. Like I said you know, there's not a community out there that has a community pool that doesn't charge some type of fee and this is 4 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 expensive to maintain you know, and to keep it safe for the kids to skate on so I think it is a privilege. It's not a right that every city has a skate park, but just the same as the pool. Atkins: Does Waconia have a skate park? Eric Kittelson: Waconia did not when I was there. I don't know if they've built one since. I don't believe they have but their ordinance, and if you're familiar with the city was from Lake Street to Second Street, from Orange Street over to Maple was a non-skating area. And that was because that was the commercial and retail business area and you know the shop owners are all small businesses. They're not, and so the complaints mostly came in that area so that's what they basically banned skating in that area and if you had time you'd stop and deal with the matter. If you didn't, you'd roll down you window and say, you know they had to pick it up and walk and if not then you'd confiscate the skateboard. They'd come to city hall and pay $25 fee and the fee has to be less than what a new skateboard is so it has to be something reasonable. Enough to let them know that it's, that it means something. Hoffman: A follow up point, they did build a skate park and they have experienced some of the same issues that we're going through and I think a local church is stepping to help out with some of their issues. Atkins: Do they charge a fee? Hoffman: No. Atkins: How about Chaska, do you know? Hoffman: Chaska does not. Shakopee does. Their community center. Eric Kittelson: Yeah, Chaska's got a pretty informal skate park. This is, from what I know, one of the nicer skate parks in the metro area. And the kids are lucky to have it so. Stolar: Ann, you wanted to say, Murphy: Yeah, I have a question. One of the concerns that I have is being at the senior center quite a bit to volunteer I noticed that when the seniors are walking, a lot of them are not particularly steady on their feet or they may have problems walking. A lot of the skateboarders are kind of coming right in front of them. Skating right in front of them. Could knock them off balance pretty easily so I think that seems to be a problem from what I've seen here at our senior center. With that ordinance, do you think that would help cut down. Eric Kittelson: Yeah, if we consider that in the business district that there was no skating, because that is the area that we have problems with, and I don't know if it's coming or going from the skate park, but they're skating or coming but I've seen unfortunately as soon as the library and the park area around there between city hall was done we started noticing damage almost the next day. And unfortunately it's such nice stone work there that the skateboards have chipped all the edges of the planter, benches, basically and that type of thing, and some of the 5 ~ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 bricks so, and like I said, pretty much the market square area around Subway and Spalon Montage up through the skate park is definitely an area that still can be an issue. Murphy: Have any of the seniors been injured? Eric Kittelson: Not that I'm aware of no. Stolar: Kevin, did you have any questions? Dillon: No questions. Stolar: Thank you very much. Appreciate you taking the time. Any other members of our audience wish to make a comment, please feel free to come up. Tony Oberstar: I'm Tony Oberstar. I live down on Baneberry Way West. Just moved there. But I've been using the park since it opened up when I was rollerblading or skateboarding now, It's a great place. I go there as many days as I can during the week. One thing I wanted to know about is, with that skateboard ordinance, with them skating by the senior center, will that be included for transportation? Using the skateboard as transportation. I talked to Officer Mike one time from skateboarding down the street. I don't know if people called on me or what, using it for transportation and he said I was fine because I was using it as transportation, not recreation. Stolar: I think the ordinance issue has just come up in this discussion but I think that's something to clarify. Murphy: What I was referring to was people skateboarding right in front of or right behind an elderly person that is not, have the greatest balance. I was concerned. There was someone that was almost injured when I was here the other day so I was concerned about that. Not necessarily normal. Hoffman: That would be included. If this spins off into a conversation about an ordinance, we would talk about bikes. Just like Excelsior bans all uses in their downtown, so you would have to, are you going to allow bikes for transportation. Are you going to allow skateboards for transportation? Inline skates and so that would be a conversation that we would have to have at a different time, Stolar: Right, and I think it would have the opportunity for all points of view to be discussed as part of it. Tony Oberstar: Also I know like if you were to have someone there on duty, the time of day you probably need them is during the day. At the night most the people use it are the people who are very into skateboarding as you were talking about who use it strictly as the skate park. They don't use it for dealing up there or horsing around or anything like that and that's the only time you'd really need somebody. The night time is, I don't know when most the calls they get for the marijuana usage or whatever are but most the time when I'm up there and I do see that bad behavior, it's during the daytime, maybe about up until about 3:00 on Saturdays. And I go there 6 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 for many hours from sun up. Been there before the clean up crew comes to I think, I don't know what they are, community service people are cleaning up the park I've been there before them and really the only bad time is midday. Stolar: Thank you. I should ask, do any commissioners have questions? Okay, anyone else like to speak? Marsha Gaulke: Hi. My name is Marsha Gaulke. I live over on Saddlebrook Pass. First of all I want to say thank you for supporting the skateboarders. Some of the comments that the officer made I agree with. We do a lot of swimming over at Lake Ann and I hear offensive language and see inappropriate behavior so for the most part I think it is the very few at the bottom of the curve that are being disruptive and using foul language. And to ask the boys that skate and enjoy skating to step up is a hard thing. It's a hard thing for teenagers to ask people to break up a fight or quit swearing or pick up your garbage. And it's great if our kids can do that and we can encourage it and I think we can encourage them to clean up. Obviously this boy here does it. And to close the park I feel is not addressing the issue. It's getting rid of the problem, So as an overall picture, closing the park isn't the answer. It's just moving the problem somewhere else. And then the kids that do enjoy it lose out. And as far as skating in front of an elderly person, you know I bet you there's not many people that do that. And the person who did it, obviously is way out of line. I'm guessing that's pretty inappropriate behavior. And maybe it was ignorance but for the most part I think they're good kids and we need to address the issue instead of just hide it. Cold spark... Stolar: Any questions? Commissioners, if you have a question, just pipe it in for one of our visitor presentations. Other presentations or comments? Jon Kraus: I'm Jon Kraus. I live at 8008 Cheyenne Avenue. For the transportation thing, usually the rollerbladers, we usually have our feet strapped into our rollerblades when we're there and so whenever we go to the gas station or something to Wendy's to pick up some food, we usually have those strapped to our feet still. So we try to stay out of people's way because they're not the funnest things to run into people with. And as for the bikes, people have gotten pretty good leaving them outside the park Usually they're outside of it or in front of the park That's gotten pretty well over the years. Thanks, Elise Dye: I'm Elise Dye. I live on 18630 Magenta Bay in Eden Prairie. First of all I'djust like to say that I agree with what the officer was saying about the fringe kids. They're the ones that are causing the problems. Kids who really love to skateboard are great kids and I think that it's like sad that there's such a stereotype around them. We don't all drink, do drugs, swear and litter. I love JSA W. It's a really cool place. The nice thing about Chanhassen is that it's outside and now that summer's coming it's so nice to be outside and it's just a fun place. Like every time you go, all your friends are there. You can see everyone. And it's just nice to be with them. And I think that is a place to stay out of trouble rather than a place to get into trouble, As far as the visible trash and stuff, I don't think that that's been much of a problem anymore. I don't see very much trash. I think that everyone could do a little bit better job but it's just like any city park, there will be trash occasionally and it's not the...but we should continue to work 7 :11 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 on that. Yeah, I just think that's a really great place and I have a question, Is it locked during the time that it's closed? Stolar: No. Wasn't that something in one of the documents that we had? Hoffman: It's not locked from 10:00 to 6:00 a.m., no. Elise Dye: And I don't know, I think at least from the article I had seen that the vandalism happened like late Sunday night between, late Sunday night and early Monday morning which would be when the park is closed, so I think if anyone went out to spray paint or whatever they used, was into skateboarding, I think for sure that we would walk out and say like what are you doing? Like you can't do that here you know. Everyone's there to skateboard. There are the fringe kids that might be causing the problems, but I think that that's definitely more a thing that would help this situation if you locked it when it's closed. Because my guess is that it happened when the lights were off. Or else the city can't see what's going on rather than when the lights are on and it's pretty visible and so when someone's sneaking in, so. Stolar: Thank you. Todd Owens: Well I'm one of the old guys that uses it. I'm the near 50 crowd and I've got kids that use it, but I use it. I'm 48, I'm a long boarder by. Oh I'm sorry, Todd Owens. Peaceful Lane, Chanhassen. We've been using this I believe since it's been open and I'm a long boarder so it's a little harder on the ramps to do my stuff, but I like the city streets personally but I don't do the rail section so you don't have to look at me. But my boys know how to do that but no, we've enjoyed it but you know the language thing, the times I've been there, I hung out at Hyland for 11 years now with my boys and I've got 5 sons and we've snowboarded for 11 years, and there's language. I mean you get around...you run into language in city hall. You're going to run into that. You can't, we can do stuff as parents about it but you're going to have a hard time doing it publicly. At least that's my belief, and that's why I personally have hung out with my own boys at these places because you can have a, you can teach them the right thing to do. But as far as the park, you know hearing that it might close and things like that, I don't see personally a justification for it. I don't know what the costs are associated with it. If there was a pass fee or something, I don't know if the other parks in the city have a season pass type of arrangement or not, but we've enjoyed it. We've appreciated it. It's nice to know our tax dollars are going for it. I do see it personally as a fringe benefit for being in Chanhassen. Like the bike trails and everything else, we enjoy those too so thanks for keeping it so appreciate it, thanks. Stolar: Any other comments? Terry Campbell: I actually have a question. I have a question of the officer. I'm actually with the Chanhassen Athletic Association, but my name's Terry Campbell and I live in Saddleridge Trail North. And do you think that if you do try the fees with these kids, that it will keep the other kids away just because they, I mean they don't go in the park you say sometimes. But do you think that would keep those other kids away that do cause the trouble? 8 i~ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Eric Kittelson: Yeah, and I didn't want to start a whole discussion on ordinances and other things but those are some of the ideas that could make the park better if it were to be re-opened. And to address several of the comments that were made by the rest of the people here, to the one young lady, I think she may have said the most intelligent thing here tonight. It is a place for most the kids to go to stay out of trouble rather than get into trouble and as far as you know if there were to be some type of fee enacted, it's a special use item. Not used by the majority of the public. Just like a pool, community pool's a special use and I think a skate park is a very special use. Terry Campbell: Specific group of kids. Eric Kittelson: Very specific use. It's used for only one thing, the same as the pool is, and so those were ideas thrown out there from my perspective. Yeah, and I think she's also right that it certainly probably happened after hours and... For the people that are here that skate, no different than something that happens in the school. You guys are going to find out who did this before we will and there's not enough being done as to prove, you know who did, no one goes out and does this thing on their own. When a kid throws a rock through a window, they're never by themselves. It's not fun to do by yourself, so there's been talk and there's people out there that know who did this and if we catch them, they will pay and reimburse the city for it to be fixed, so you know, people that are there that, you know you should take this as a violation on something that you love. They're trying to, because this was taken from you and there's definitely, because the investigation hasn't gone very far so far. And so there are people out there that know. . . vandalism that happened at Eckankar not too long ago. It took a while but we finally were able to identify those people and so, somebody out there knows something. Terry Campbell: Well I appreciate the fact that you're trying to help the kids and not just go and say, you know take... I think that's nice that the department's trying to help them. Stolar: Thank you. Other comments? Okay, seeing none and I will allow that, as we do our discussion, if something comes up, I'll open up the session again for people to comment because I think this is an important issue. I'd like to just bring it back to the commission members now and I guess open it up for questions to staff or our guests. Paula, why don't you start. Atkins: Has there been a noticeable improvement in the trash, or there not being as much trash? I mean it seems like it's always been a huge issue. As far as garbage. Hoffman: Yeah, as a department we've not noticed a significant improvement. We pick it up every morning. Some of the comments talking about trash in other parks, as the Director I've always said that. We pick up trash everywhere in every park in the city. It just happens to be very concentrated at the skate park and very visible, so it also spills over into the city hall parking lots and so when people come to work or meetings in the morning, which typically are government officials, city employees, law enforcement, council people, they see it and they're very turned off by it and we hear about it almost immediately. Atkins: It's not ever... 9 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: Plenty of garbage cans in the skate park. Garbage just doesn't get there at some level. Stolar: Anything else Paula? Atkins: Not right now. Stolar: Steve. Scharfenberg: I guess I just had a question, not for staff but for the young adults who are here tonight. What about the fee? What does, is that something you'd be willing to pay to keep the park open. Use that to staff a person and whoever wants to can I guess come up and talk to that. Stolar: Does anyone? Elise Dye: I'd be willing to pay the fee, but the one thing is that they're talking about how fringe kids that aren't even in the park, I don't know if that's going to keep them from smoking marijuana in their cars. I don't know what the difference would be if we're paying to go in there. Stolar: I think it would be the fact that we have a supervisor there to help alert, because they would also have, at least the ability to contact law enforcement if they see it occurring outside or inside. Elise Dye: Yeah, I think that we'd be willing to pay but that's like the nice thing about Chanhassen. You can go for an hour and your skateboard, it's not like you have to make a day of it you know, and it's like a lot of the indoor parks, they charge and then have like higher ramps and stuff that you can do, but. Scharfenberg: How much do the indoor parks charge? Elise Dye: Third Layer. 001 think is $12.00 for like a 3 hour session. But I mean it's a much bigger. It's not the size of the Chanhassen. And JSA W is free now so I mean, and that's basically an indoor park. Stolar: Okay. Did you want to make a comment also? Resident: Yeah, I guess we'd be willing to pay some kids. One thing about like, as she said you know these are most the trouble's going on with the people who don't skate so they're not going to be paying for you know the cost or anything. The bigger parks and stuff, you pay at the bigger parks but these parks are like big. Like Third Layer, it's $13.00 for 3 hours but like the park is literally 40,000 square feet. I know the Underpass is like 15 or 20. And it's not even full like they are, and their ramps are like anywhere up to like 12 feet high, and so yeah that's it, Murphy: Todd, do we have any ordinance right now about skateboarding on the streets within the offices? The streets right here around the senior center and the library. 10 ~----- Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: No ordinance, no. We have a rule that you shall not skateboard in this park. City Center Park. Murphy: Are we able to enforce it or how would we enforce that? Hoffman: We talk to them on a yearly basis. Law enforcement talks to them. Staff members, Library employees. Murphy: So what would an ordinance do that that doesn't do? Hoffman: Provides that hook. That ability to confiscate the board and get the fine. Murphy: So for the skateboarders, as far as trans, we talked about transportation into the park. Would it be a hardship to walk your board in and out of the park right here by the senior center? Is that an issue? No? Okay. Stolar: I think one person mentioned Rollerblades. Having to take those off, but there are ways to do that. Using sidewalks. I think the big issue we had here was people doing it on the benches, fountains, Murphy: Yeah, it's not a one or two times that I've seen it. I've seen it over and over again right here, in and out of the skate park with elderly people. I've seen that repeatedly so it's not something that I've just seen once or twice. But maybe if we could just kind of walk our skateboards in and out around this area right here. Dillon: It's a classic case of a few bad apples ruining the whole deal so I think we need to try to work to some sort of solution to try to keep the park open, because it is a great amenity. My kids have used it and it's, you know a few years ago when it wasn't quite I guess the problem it's become. Anyways, so you know, the fee thing. I agree. I think everyone is you know, that might be a solution but just to kind of keep a little extra, the lifeguard there. But then again, and that's one issue. But then the other is the litter. Now that, maybe that's something there can just be some, you know a little more higher level of volunteerism by the people that use the park on a regular basis. That might be part of the solution also. Something we can't really do by fee but it's something we need to, I think needs to be explored, Spizale: I tend to agree with Kevin. I think that park should be kept open, I think you as a group need to place yourselves a little bit more, I know it's hard but if you want to keep this park you're going to have to pick up somebody else's trash. You're going to have to work with the police officers to keep order in the park, and I also think that we have to have some type of supervision, at least during peak times to control the park. But I think we should keep it open. Stolar: Todd, I have a couple of questions for you. One, since this issue has surfaced, what has been the feedback you have directly or indirectly received? More formally, what directly have you received? 11 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: There's been a number of users who have stopped by the office and talked about basically asking when it's going to be opened, and we've had some conversations about the issues and we weren't quite sure when it was going to be opened so I've talked to half a dozen at least that way. Ed Scheller, who was a resident, called in this morning. He lives at 870 Kimberly Lane. He got the impression, he was retired and he walks to the post office every day and walks by the skate park. His opinion the skate park was the best thing the city has ever done for the youth of our community and he wants to see it re-open. So that was a phone call I took this morning. Had a phone call from a very irate citizen, a father on Monday who was very upset that the skate park was closed and wanted to see it re-opened. So and I've talked to Councilman Lundquist. He has received some calls of support for the action that the city has taken to close it down. Enter into another conversation about what we can do at the skate park. And so those have been the direct type of contact. I've not received a lot of written materials or letters, e- mails. Stolar: Well we have a gentleman that has a question. If you don't mind... Please. I want to make this more interactive because I think this issues requires dialogue. No, please. Bob Numrich: I'm Bob Numrich. I live down in the Powers Ridge Apartments and my son is a very avid skateboarder. Anywhere he can find a place to skateboard, he wants to do it, and this is a great thing for him. It just occurred to me listening here, rather than thinking about charging a fee, I think like the young lady said, is one of the great things about it is you can go for an hour and you don't have to pay. It may not sound like a lot but for kids it's a little, so one thing I think that they used to do at JSA W, they had volunteer programs. Kids could sign up to do stuff, and I'm wondering whether you shouldn't try to do some sort of a volunteer corps and get these kids, you sign up and you know they're responsible for being there and maybe they've got a staff or something and they get rewarded after some, putting in so many hours. They get something. And that would give them a stake in this thing. And it would be, you know it'd make them the important kid there so think about that. Stolar: Thank you. Thank you for the suggestion. Eric Kittelson: When I brought up the fee, I was looking at something nominal. It's like a free puppy or a free kitten versus a $20 kitten. It's just something to show that you know, and obviously most of these kids aren't old enough to work yet or have maybe part time jobs, and as far as the kids that were on the fringe that have the cars and people that are driving cars, they're usually not skating. They're into other things at that point in their life. But what they do is they hang out inside. They can go back to their car and smoke and whether it's cigarettes, marijuana or drink or do whatever. And so any type of fee would be something obviously up to the city council but would be a nominal fee to show some type of ownership that hey, I am serious about using this for this and I don't think it's unreasonable because a city bike path is paid for by tax dollars as well as the skate park. However a bike path is used by runners, walkers, bikers, skateboarders, rollerbladers, it's used by everybody and as far as any type of, the square goes here. The amount of money that was put into beautifying this area instead of having an open green field. My recommendation would be no biking, no skateboarding. Knowing that you can walk your bike a block across through there. And because of the senior center and the library being there, there is a lot of traffic. Pedestrian traffic there that is elderly or that are retired that 12 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 go the library during the day that you know they can't get out of the way of a skateboard or a speeding cyclists or anything of that nature. Just a simple sign that this area closed to pedestrian traffic only. And we want that to last for a long time. It's a really nice look to the downtown area when you come down 78th Street that represents what Chanhassen is, and there's been a lot of damage there. And it's only been 2 years now? So, that's all. Stolar: I'd like to make some comments and continuing with our discussion here. A few things. One, I think there are 3 different things I've heard come up here, and I'd like to, well 4 actually, and separate those. One is an ordinance regarding skateboarding in the downtown area. That actually is not within the purview of this group. That would be a city ordinance. I appreciate it because it puts the whole issue in context, and I think it allows us to isolate that piece of it. That doesn't have to do with the skate park but that activity adds to the perception of behavior that may not be directly attributable to the skate park, so I think it is an important issue and I don't know if we want to just reflect to the City Council that it certainly is something worth their looking into because again it addresses I think what Kevin said. You want to get the bad apples and some of the bad behavior addressed, but that doesn't, that particular issue doesn't have to do with the skate park. Going through the city park here though somewhat does because of the location of the skate park, and that is within our purview I believe because we were the ones that put the, per staff recommendation, put the signs on so if the city does consider an ordinance, just from the past history of this group, we've been in favor of eliminating skateboarding in City Center Park here. Outside the city hall and by the library, so I think those are two issues. I think a third issue is graffiti. And Todd and I talked about this. Graffiti happens. It happens all over the place. It is not unique to the skate park, so I personally don't consider that also to be a part of what, and for the material that I included and wrote up in this document, I don't consider that a part of what we can address with the skate park. You close it down and you leave it an open field, somebody could spray paint the asphalt. It doesn't change that, so again I'd like to take that away. So then that leaves us with the issue that the City Council asked us which was, within 30 days come up with a plan to eliminate the occurrences of foul language, excessive litter. They talk about graffiti although I don't think that that's something particular to the skate park, especially since it did occur after hours. It wasn't someone using the skate park doing the graffiti. And again I think I agree with Kevin. It's a few bad apples. I'm speaking as an individual commission member. I don't believe it is our job to regulate behavior. It's our job to offer safe, secure programming for the citizens. And to me, the skate park's well used. That doesn't eliminate us doing things that might help improve the, or enhance the reduction of these occurrences. Elimination is the term they used. I don't think we can do that either. One person throws a gum wrapper on the ground, we failed to eliminate. Certainly we can reduce though, and I think the reduction comes in many different forms. These young adults coming here is one way, and it is your park and it is up to you to help make sure this park is still around. By helping the officers find out who the bad people are. By coming here and telling us you want it open. I think that's all great. But I do think given the discussions we've had, that potentially some sort of focus, supervision might be advantageous in helping reduce some of the occurrences. And in order to do that we may need to do some sort of fee, and that's you know from my personal, as commission member, I want to keep it open. I would want to see a plan though that included some thought of two main things. One, can we get focused, identified supervision that makes sense. If we can isolate that these occurrences are occurring in certain periods, because we can't do supervision through the entire time the park's open. That's just not feasible. The second 13 "~ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 thing I have a question to the parents in the audience. We tried this in one of the memos that Todd Hoffman put in our packet, and I think was distributed out there to you. A while ago we had an open forum to ask parents to be involved in the skate park. Perhaps even through a parents association that helps work with the city to keep that a safe and secure opportunity for our children and our users and some adult users. That's just something I think we ought to encourage is the formation of a skate park association. Parents association that helps remind the kids who are using it, let's pick up the litter you know when you go. We were on a walk today at Lake Ann Park. We found some litter on the ground, we picked it up. We threw it in the garbage can. It's a simple process. Things like that that could help the perception because it's right here in our city center to help improve it, so my belief is keep it open. Ask the parents to get involved, Do something to try and get a parents association involvement, and then I do think some sort of focus supervision. Or assistance there. The city does ask us, City Council has mandated within 30 days we come up with a plan. I would assume that involves us having a motion here for staff at some point. Resident: I have another comment. I like your idea of getting the parents involved because,.. it's hard to find volunteers, but as a parent I'm way over committed to my children because these I think it's important to spend time with them and I don't care if my daughter's who 14 doesn't want me around, I'm going to be there. Because she's gotten in trouble when I've not been around. She does things that aren't the best you know, 14 year old girls don't use their heads sometimes. I like that idea and I think maybe if you charged maybe a $20 season pass that the kids would have a card with a number on it and whoever, the parents take turns at the gate. Write down the number of the kids that come in so they know which kids are in this group because they have to maybe have a picture on it or something so they know what kids are at the skate park. They have it on a list and the parents maybe have to take one... You can't hire someone, I personally wouldn't want my 18 year old son to stand at the skate...because I think I'd be afraid for him sometimes. But I would want that person to make money so the kids have to have a season pass before they got up there because there shouldn't be anyone with any money there. Stolar: Yeah, I would agree. I can't see a gate collection process. Over at the rec center we use the punch cards as an example. Resident; But like the kids say, they don't want to just go for an hour and pay $20.00 or whatever, but that season pass that allows them to come in from this date to this date at a certain time, that might solve a little bit of problems having to pay too much money because kids you know, they don't have a lot of money sometimes but that's just my idea from a concerned parent. Stolar: And I guess just from a point of order, I don't know that we necessarily today have to have the details of the plan. We just have to have an approach for the City Council, if I understand correctly. Right Todd? Hoffman: A response, 14 J. Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Stolar: A response. I mean it doesn't have to be all laid out in detail so we would investigate things like the season pass or any punch card. And again that doesn't mean that this commission agrees with what I say either. Commission can make it's own choice. Any else? Atkins: I'm still on the foul language thing now. I'd like some feedback from the skaters that are here. Is that bothersome to you? Is that offensive to you? Personally. Elise Dye: What I think about the style of language, there's a lot of like in the article it kind of like sounded as if like we are abusing like the skate park.. ,stuff like that, and then...with language but like I've never heard anyone swear at another person... It's not directed at another person. I feel that between each other, everyone is extremely.. ,help each other learn. Like really helpful. The only swearing is like you know you dump your trick. You say a bad word. Just the same as if you go to the city park, someone shooting baskets. They miss a shot. They say a bad word, you know. It's the same thing. You hear swear words when you go to the gas station. When you go to the mall. You know in a movie. Your kids are going to learn swear words on the bus ride home from school from the kids that are their age. You're going to hear, you're going to learn the swear words, you know. It's not good to swear but like I don't swear. I never say any swear words but like Todd was saying, I think that swearing is an issue that you need to deal with at home. You need to teach your kids not to swear and you need to not swear and I think that that's the only way that you can get rid of the problem. You can't expect to, in the skate park like as a city you can't make there be no swearing. Like you can't make a law of no swearing. It's impossible to regulate, you know. But just as, like everywhere else you go occasionally you hear a bad word but I don't think that there's any way that you can, like we can all work on not swearing but I don't think that there's a way to completely regulate it. Atkins: Well said. I'm also wondering, there seems to be a concern by parents and younger skaters that their younger skaters are exposed to language that they don't approve of, because you're all there at the same time often. Do you think it's a good idea to have a set time for younger skaters? Does that seem like a good idea? Like up to age 7 or 8 or something like that, would that help? Todd Owens: ...You know there again, he's going to be exposed to it. We've talked about it. You know everything from colorful metaphors to direct talk, but we talk about it in an open conversation in our house but the, on the age limit, a time limit, no. It's the parents. I think Elise had a good idea, I don't know if she brought it up but if the park is locked up from, during the closing hours, and I don't know how much you know obviously it's another thing for the city to do so it's more cost. I don't know what it takes to lock it up but, during the closed hours. And it does go back again to the fact that it's... Who knows if maybe some day whoever did whatever the main issue was, and I'm not that up on what the big issue was that kind of tripped the whole thing. They probably didn't like skateboarders for all we know. You know if it's somebody totally on the fringe, unassociated. It could have been a parent that was mad, you know I mean really... Eric Kittelson: The language that was spray painted was senseless dribble. It had nothing to do, it wasn't against skateboarders. It wasn't again.. . someone who was really bored. 15 4_____ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Resident: I just wanted to add something. My observation is that I think the young lady is too, I see a lot of teaching.. .big kids and the little kids and they're teaching each other. The little kids are leaming these tricks from the older kids. It's really a nice experience from what I've seen, Stolar: To add to that, my actual question was almost not even related to this issue that I'd asked Todd which is, do the younger children actually get the opportunity to use the equipment when it's open for all, and it sounds like the answer is yes. Elise Dye: Yes, I definitely think that little kids get a chance. It's all a rotation, and everyone does like.. . everyone gets a chance and also...is that you have friends that are like 10 years older than you and 10 years younger than you, and that makes no difference. You're all as one like big family all together and it's all encouragement and.. .not like pushing up. Stolar: Alright, thank you, Todd Owens: I almost think there's a code of ethics that would be interesting to get into. There really is if you watch it. Resident: I'd like just to add that I mean as far as like a year ago, every, there's no age group that, they all get together. I went down to that... when they first, the JSA W thing and like kids down there, we get together. You don't even know a kid and just like skateboarding you get that friend and you meet new people. They go down and show you stuff that you've never seen before or you don't know about, and like... went down there and this kid showed us what to do and where to go. You know just different things like that. An example is this security guard was kind of yelling at skateboarders and we just got all together as skateboarders and said hey, it's not right to yell at our skateboarders.. . Resident: My kids started going there when they were much younger and I would go with them just because I was concerned and occasionally we heard words that we don't use in our house, and my advice to them was don't ever repeat that. That's not language we use so I think as far as kids being, younger kids being exposed to language, their parents probably.. .it's the parents responsibility. Resident: I've been going there for about 2 years probably and I've heard language.. . and yeah, all the people do teach you things. Like I've learned a lot of stuff from... Stolar: Thank you. What I'd like to do, I don't mean to cut off the debate, and I won't, but I do want to try and see if we can bring this to closure. If possible we'll open it up ifthere's any. Todd, would you like to provide some summary comments and then I'll bring it to commission to see if there's a motion that we want to make, Hoffman: Thanks Chair Stolar. Just a little reflection back on the time when the skate park was opened. I think it's something that park and recreation staff as a whole is very proud of. I think the community is very proud of. We had a group of young people that came to the park commission back in '97-98 and they started a conversation about, at that time they were labeled aggressive skate parks or skate parks, and there was quite a bit of opposition and resistance to 16 J Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 opening such a facility in the community because of the unknown. The fact that people didn't know what these things were, and those kids came back and educated not only the Park and Recreation Commission but the City Council. City Council was hesitant. The community was hesitant. The school was hesitant. The bank across the street was hesitant. The post office was hesitant, and there are issues that we deal with on a daily and weekly basis with especially the school because when you operate an elementary school with a playground directly adjacent to a facility such as the skate park where language is an issue. The playground monitors don't appreciate having to talk to those kids. You have 50 kids out on the playground and you hear those words, that's alarming to those playground monitors. That's alarming to parents that have their kids at that school, so it is an issue and it's something that the community has expressed a concern about. Back when the original $15,000 was invested it was just put out there. The hockey rink was not built. That was intended to be 2 hockey rinks. One on the east and one on the west. The hockey rink was deleted from the park master plan and the skate park was approved. $15,000 in jumps and ramps went out there and then we started immediately with issues about parking across at the access into the fire station so we put up a fence on that side of the facility, on the fire station side. It soon became apparent that fencing the entire enclosure to help monitor trash and access and even behavior issues because when you showed up with an official, either a deputy or a city official, kids would scatter without any fence. Now they're at least, they're somewhat contained so it's a little more easier to carryon a conversation on behavior issues and other things. Second phase of equipment was added. Another $15,000. A third phase of equipment added, $15,000 of equipment was added and supported, so we have seen that support from the Park and Recreation Commission and City Council through the years. The shelter was constructed, and it has turned out to be a very nice park. I think the location is ideal in the center of our city. There's been some talk about let's move it out of the way. Let's move it into more a location that would not be as visible. Professionally I think that's a mistake. I think having that visibility, I think the kids feel very, they feel like they have some importance. This is prime real estate in the downtown of Chanhassen dedicated for a space for that use, and that's a good thing I think for a user group that actually deserves that. The commission that started this said you know, this is one use we don't have. This is a group that falls off of the map of Chanhassen park and recreation because we don't offer them anything. They were very opposed or resistant at that time to charging a fee. We don't charge a fee for, you know we have 24 playgrounds in this city for young kids, for 8 and under. They're valued at, now after this year we'll have a couple million dollars worth of children playgrounds. We don't charge for those. We had a charge at Lake Ann. We eliminated that charge. We could put a monitor at the park, if that's seen as a positive. There was some talk about that at the last go around and there's also some negatives to putting a monitor at the park. But you could put one there without charging a fee. The city could simply say this is an important enough issue where we're going to take money, just like we do for other rec programming or law enforcement and we don't have to. We absorb it as part of the general operating fund.. .18 year olds, young adults there at the park, many people will say, oh it's supervised. I'll drop off my 7 year old. I'll drop off my 6 year old and it's supervised and they'll be taken care of. And that can be an issue, and can an 18 year old take care of all the situations that you have at the skate park? That's potentially a negative from staff's view point as well. What I would suggest we do as a community is respond to the City Council by taking a tiered approach. Talking about what I call a wake up call. Again we've had a significant wake up call in this community. You're hearing all the good things tonight but all of us know that once we step out and open the skate park, there is going to be the things 17 }i Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 occurring again and that's why we're here. So we have to have that wake up call. We've had the closure. We've got some new signs Chair if you want to pull out, these signs are up at the park in response to the issues and the concerns of the City Council. They're very bright. Notice, profanity and littering will not be tolerated. Results in closure of the skate park. And again we talked about these concerns tonight. I have concern when we order these signs, is that I said to our administrative, our staff here, we could be closing it every month. We're going to have litter at that park every morning. It's still going to be there. There's still going to be profanity at the park, so is this a realistic expectation? That it will not be tolerated and closed. You know it's another warning but again it's not going to eliminate... Could we use increased involvement from the community? Absolutely. Some people talked about, I've always said, I think the skate park is a tremendous learning and a positive for our community. You know 80-85 percent of the use is positive. 20 percent is negative. If you take a look at those users, that's 22,000 positive user visits a year in our community and 3,000 or 4,000 that turn into some kind of a negative. To close it down to get rid of those 2,000-3,000-4,000 in my belief is not something that the community should be looking at. But we need increased involvement from everyone. The users, I can see the park out my window. Do I want to have to walk there 3 times a day and talk to people? No, I would prefer not to but do I feel a responsibility to do that? Yes I do. Other staff does it on a daily basis. Other staff not even involved with our park department do it on a daily basis, and then obviously our law enforcement, they're participating as well. Second phase, so we open up the skate park. We say hey community, you've got a wake up call. Let's get involved. Let's start a conversation. Continue the conversation about what conduct we want to see at the skate park. Second phase would be to start some sort of a skate park official association so form an association. Have them meet monthly or bi-monthly basis and involve parents and youth. And the third would be to put some kind of paid staff up there and whether. . . pay for a fee or not I think is a separate conversation. And then fourth would be to close it or eliminate the skate park, which I don't think is a positive thing for this community. When I walk over there and talk to folks about conduct or things that they're not following the rules, I always think that we're only doing good. We're only reinforcing what our community values are. When the other 20 or 30 or 40 or 10 or 2 or whatever it is, those kids are standing by the way side, They've been observing the same behavior that I'm observing, or the law enforcement officer or another..,observing and when they get walked up to and talked to about that behavior and it's inappropriate, it just confirms to those other kids that this see, this is not appropriate. You know we knew that wasn't appropriate, and so I think that's the real opportunity that we have at the skate park. Not to mention the calories burned, the energy that is consumed over there in physical exercise and the mental health that these kids receive from the skate park, I've said it a number of times. Been quoted in traded magazines, in my belief the skate park is the most highly used, the best return on the investment that we've ever made in this city in a park and recreation facility. Stolar: Thank you. With that, I'd like to bring it back to the commission and ask if a commission member would like to put forth a motion of how we would respond to the City Council's directive. Without objection we have a comment. Resident: ...I look at the signs and I look at the signs.. . when I look at that and I think back when I was 15 and that would have made we want to swear and want to litter. Could it be something instead. I mean even.. . graffiti away if you can go that far with it. Hey, how about 18 ,;I Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 keep the park, keep it clean. Your mouth and the trash, you know whatever but something that is a little more creative because these kids are creative. They're out there because they're creative. It's not, they see a notice and it's, I can still think 15... I'm sorry, that would want to make me want to do it, so and I don't know ifthere's a list of rules over there. Ithink there is. You know like being a bully.. .Ijust think maybe a creative way like that and then I loved the volunteer idea. You get the users of the park in some form, and even if they kind of do it themselves, at least the kids that are here initiate it even and say hey, let's, we're on...property and let's make sure this place is cleaned up or we're here in the morning.. .let's pick it up. And actually pull in them kind of pulling in their own volunteers, but I'm just looking at that sign that...that'd be fun for them. Stolar: I appreciate the comment. Todd, just as a side note. These are signs we printed up already correct? Hoffman: They're posted. Stolar: They're posted out there, and I appreciate your comment and let me just say I will follow up on that as this commission gets into a discussion. Okay. I think you brought up some good points. So we'll get to them, one second. We need to have a motion though for us to respond. Would someone like to venture and we can all work together on it, or should we take Todd's recommendation as a motion? Scharfenberg: What's with the June 14th? Dillon: And we're getting together June 14th. Stolar: Not for this. And that would be beyond the 30 days that they gave us to respond. The City Council in their enactment gave us 30 days to respond. Or actually to submit a plan. Scharfenberg: So Todd, just one more time. Hoffman: Sure. It's really a four tier proposal and the first is to re-open the skate park, recognizing that the community has gone through a wake up period. The fact that there are expectations at the skate park, just like at any other park in that we would look to the community for increased involvement to make sure that the skate park does remain a desirable location. Second would be to, if that fails, to form, to solicit formation of a skate park association with both users and parents to monitor the activities and to then pick this conversation up again and say alright, well the community has spoken. Whether that be this commission or the City Councilor the law enforcement agencies. If we re-open it and there's a response in 3 months, 6 months that it is not working. They are not seeing, that their expectations have not been fulfilled, then we would move to that second step and then the third step would be to consider a paid staff and potentially a fee at the park. And the fourth would be to close the skate park altogether. Stolar: Would someone like to, I'm putting a little bit of order on this. Would someone like to put that forth as a motion? As action for this commission. 19 -~~ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Dillon: Yeah, I make a motion that we follow Todd's suggestions in moving forward with the plan to present to the City Council. Murphy: I'll second. Stolar: Okay, moved by Commission Dillon. Seconded by Commissioner Murphy. Discussion. Scharfenberg: If I understand Todd's, you know his four phases, I'd almost like to see number I and 2 almost combined. I think from what I've heard I think, skaters and the parents I think do need, we need to take ownership of our parks and I think the kids want to take ownership typically so I would almost like to see that association happen as part of this item to govern themselves and to clean it up. I think that that almost has to happen. Stolar: And again just try to put structure on this. Would Todd, any comments about that? Combining 1 and 2. Both giving this wake up call as well as trying to get some association started. Hoffman: What I'm trying to stress in the first one is that we ask for that voluntarily in the wake up call you know. That people, this is their community. This is their park. They spend some more time, because if you go to the second one where you start an official association, that's a good deal of, that's a commitment that then we have to get involved in as a staff. You're going to have a board of directors with that. It's a big step and so if you want to take that step immediately, we would be willing to do that but just taking that, when I laid this out I tried to make them in order of you know, it gets a little bit harder. A little bit more involved and the skate park's been successful I think for 6 years without it. Have there been issues? Yes, and I think as a community we've gone through, this is the longest closure we've ever seen. I think the biggest wake up call in users in the community have ever gone through, and I would like to actually give that a chance before we venture off in starting a more formal organization because there's pitfalls in that as well. Stolar: Can I maybe, Steve if I can build on what you said. Understanding your concerns Todd. How about if I phrase it that as part of one we also encourage the parents and skaters to form an association because they could do that on their own. We don't have to be involved, but if we don't see change, then we'll actually take active steps on our own to form it. That way, I see parents in the audience here, and you've got the Chanhassen Athletic Association right here who can help you understand how to create one. I'm not throwing this on you Todd, but I mean they've done it right for the same purpose. Recreation for our children. It's something that parents can do. So if we can amend your thoughts just in a statement of this commission, would that be kind of where you were going? Scharfenberg: Yes, exactly. Stolar: Would you guys be okay? So it'd be an encouragement to you as part of this wake up call, and then Todd we would still have as level two, that we as a city, or as a commission take active steps to create an association. 20 yJ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Terry Campbell: I'm actually the administrator for the CAA and I would be more than happy to help these kids organize as much as they could. I mean I talk to Todd and Jerry frequently. I would be happy to help.. . Stolar: Thanks. And it's not something we're leaving on your own but I think it's a difference of we're going to hope that based on this discussion and this wake up call you'll take the active role to do that. Any other questions or points? The motion as it stands, it's still the four tiered approach of wake up call, informational, taking ownership through the volunteer activities of the individuals who use the park, parents of individuals who use the park. To keep it open. And then if that fails the next 3 steps. Scharfenberg: The only other thing I'd like to say is I think we need, I think we all make a statement to the council, a unanimous statement that we think that this is a significant asset for our community and we do not want to see it closed. Stolar: Would the movers or the amendment, of the motion and second approve adding that statement of purpose? Dillon: I agree with that. We need to, I think it needs to stay open. Stolar: Seeing no other discussion, I'd like to take a vote on this then. Dillon moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council adopt a four tier proposal for the skate park, noting that the commission sees the skate park as a significant asset for the community and does not want to see it closed. 1. Re-open the skate park, recognizing that the community has gone through a wake up period. There are expectations at the skate park, just like at any other park in that the city would look to the community for increased involvement to make sure that the skate park does remain a desirable location. . 2. If that fails, to solicit formation of a skate park association with both users and parents to monitor the activities of the skate park. 3. If the skate park association and the city is seeing that their expectations have not been fulfilled then consider a paid staff and potentially a fee at the park. 4. If all of the above items fail, close the skate park altogether. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to O. Stolar: What I'd like to do is take a short recess for 2 minutes, because I'm losing my voice here and I need to get some water, but I also want to take a quick moment to thank all of you in the audience. Thank you very much, 21 i , ~. CITY OF CHANHASSEN 7700 Marlœt Boolevard PO Box 147 Chanhassen, MN 55317 Administration Phone: 952.227.1100 Fax: 952.227.1110 Butldlng IlI$ Iectlonc Phone: 952227,1100 Fax: 952.227,1190 Engineering Phone: 952,227.1160 Fax: 952,227,1170 Anance Phone: 952227,1140 Fax: 952.227.1110 Park & Recreation Phone: 952227.1120 Fax: 952227,1110 RecrealionCente¡ 2310 CoolIer Boolevard Phone: 952227,1400 Fax: 952.227,1404 Planning & Natural Resources PhoiJe: 952.227.1130 Fax: 952227.1110 Pubtlc Works 1591 PalkRoad Phone: 952.227.1300 Fax: 952.227.1310 Senior Cenler Phone: 952.227.1125 Fax: 952227.1110 Web Sne YII/W.cLchanhassen.mn.us ~ ~ MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director DATE: May 18,2005 SUBJ:, City Council Resolution Concerning Skate Park On Monday, May 9, 2005, the City Council passed the attached resolution concerning the city's Skate Park. This resolutiOn was prompted by the discovery of graffiti on the equipment on the same day, in addition to ongoing conduct issues at the park. The skate park has received heavy use since its opening in 1999. Approximately 25,000 users visit the park each year. The issues of foul language; underage smoking, broken glass, litter, graf . and inappropriate conduct have been present since the day the park ope Please reference the attached materials: · · · to skate · · · · · The resolution submit a plan to After taking this i will prepare a report for G:IPIuk\TII\Skage Park Response TIle City of Chan~asc.. . A growing COOI/IJIJnily wnhclean ~kes, qualily sc\lools, a channing downtown, thriving businesses, winding lralls, ami beautiful parks. A greal place 10 live, work, and play. , For discussion purposes only. Options for skate park: Problems to be solved: - EXcessive litter - Foul language - Poor impression for city right in center of town and next to a school NOTE: Graffiti is not a problem related specifically to the skate park (can. occur anywhere), so this is not part of what we are trying to solve. - Sorne of these recommendations are not mutually exclusive and can be combined. Close it ¡ Pros: Eliminates problem & costs Opens area for other recreational use May. be able to raise money through sale of equiprnent New private facility still allows activity (though for a cost and a particular population). Cons: Reduces a heavily used recreational activity - one that serves a population that needs an outlet for energy. . Does not allow full depreciation of investment in equipment Move it Pros: Removes visibility from town center Opens current area for other recreational use May allow better utilization of other recreational area (e.g. rollerblade rinks) Depending on location, may remove poor influence on school children Cons: Potential cost of move Further away from city adrnin and oversight May lower usage without solVing problem Add Supervision Pros: Active monitoring of behavior Can further programming efforts at park May improve safety and cleanliness Cons: . Cost (may be able to be offset by a fee) May reduce usage May be difficult to staff during full usage Does not address after hours issues Page 1 of2 For discussion purposes only. Charge a fee p,ros: Can offset costs of monitoring skate park May reduce casual users who may not feel as vested in skate park's success Long-term may be a revenue source Cons: Staffing I structure to collect fee May reduce usage May set a precedent of charging for other activities currently free (e.g. skäting). One other thought, in addition to these, is potentially setting aside special times by ages thus providing more usage by younger children. Page 20f2 /~ CITY OF CHANHASSEN CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIFS, MINNESOTA DATE: Mav 9. 2005 RESOLUTION NO: 2005-47 MOTION BY: Lundquist SECONDED BY: Labatt A RESOLUTION REQUIRING ACTION ON THE CHANHASSEN SKATE PARK WHEREAS, the City of Chanhassen, Minnesota has a skate park located adjacent to the cityhall,and WHEREAS, the skate park is a popular amenity for Chanhassen residents and taxpayers, and WHEREAS, the skate park is located next to an elèmentaIy school, the city hall, the fire station, the post office, city center park, and the public library in a highly visible place and WHEREAS, the skate park has instances of foul language, excessive litter, and graffiti that are both an eyesore and inappropriate; NOW THEREFORE, it is resolved that the City Council of Chanhassen, Minnesota requires the City of Chanhassen Staff and Park and Recreation Commission, within 30 days, to submit a plan to eliminate these occurrences or face City Council action that may include temporary or permanent closure of the skate park. Passed and adopted by the Chanhassen City Council this 9th day of May, 2005. ATTEST: Todd Gerhardt, City Manager Thomas A; Furlong, Mayor YES Furlong Labatt Lundquist Peterson Tjornhom NO None ABSENT None CITY OF CHANBASSEN 7700 MaJlœt Boulevard PO Box 147 Ghanhassen, MN 55317 Admlnlslrallon PIlone: 952227,1100 Fax: 952,227.1110 IhIIldlng Inspec\lolIt Phone: 952.227.1180 Fax: 952.227.1190 Engineering Phone: 952.227.1160 Fax: 952,227.1170 Finance Phone: 952227.1140 Fax: 952,227.1110 Park & Recreallon Phone: 952.227.1120 Fax: 952.227.1110 Recreation Center 2310 Coulter Boulevard Phone: 952.227.1400 Fax: 952,227.1404 Planning & Halural Resources Phone: 952.227.1130 Fax: 952.227.1110 Publl,Worlls 1591 Park Road Phone: 952227, t300 Fax: 952.227.1310 Senior Cenlt>r Phon. 952.227.1125 Fa< 952227.1110 Web Site www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Todd Hoffman, Director of Parks and Recreatioh DATE: February 20, 2003 SUBJ: Modification to 2003 Skate Park Opel"ation Plan In response to concerns raìsed by representatives of Chanhassen Elementary School concerning the Chanhassen Skate Park, the following recommendation is being made. RECOMMENDATION The following modifications to the 2003 skate park recommended. 1. 2. c: . The City 01 Chanhassen . A growing communily willi clean lakes, qualily schools, a clr.uming downtown, thriving boslnesses, winding trails, and beautiful parks. A go¡at place to live, .or~ and play. ;~ Chailhassen Skate Park proves to be popular destination The Chailhassen Skate Park opened in Septernber of 1999 quickly becoming a preferred destination for area youth. At the time, aggressive or alternative sports, were just starting to take hold across the country driving a wave of interest in these sports at the local level. One year later a second phase of equipment was added to the Chailhassen Skate Park and attendance continued to" grow. The facility is open eight to ten rnonths a year accommodating over 25,000 users per year! - More and more kids across the country are looking fOr alternatives to traditional team sports. Most site a lack of fun or undue pressure to succeed from coaches and parents. These kids find skate boarding, BMX biking, aggressive in-line skating and other "extreme" sports as a satisfying alternative. Quarter pipes, wedges and hòt boxes are just as familiar to today's youth as home base, the pitchers rnound and right field. The skills kids leàm at either the Skate Park or Ball Park are essential to building confidence, self-esteem, mental health and feelings of success. The skate park was recently remodeled to accommodate a covered shelter, additional fencing and attractive landscaping. We want the park to be an inviting place for all residents to visit. The older more skilled skaters at tirnes intimidate families and young children. However, beginners that take the iuitiative to request some extra elbow room or assistance from the regulars generally find them more than willing to help. When behaviors do erupt that do not meet community expectations adults present are encouraged to make it known that such behavior is not acceptable, A commonly quoted tribal saying is "it takes a whole village to raise a child". When a community adult (elder)reminds one kid that certain behaviors will not be tolerated there are 20 or 30 òther kids standing in the background whO' receive the same messagè. The City invites you to visit the Skate Park this next spring, summer, fall or winter. We hope that you enjoy the facility and we would enjoy hearing your comments. SKATE PARK ASSOCIATION BEING CONSIDERED The Chanhassen Skate Park has been a great success story however concerns over inappropriate conduct at the Park has prompted the City to investigate the formation of a parent vohinteer "skate park" association. This group would oversee activities at the park in a manner similar to the way in which a baseball Or soccer association governs their pamcipants. The obvious difference being that the skate park is not a team sport venue. Concerns range frorn the presence of glass to smoking to the sense that illicit activity could take place at the park. The use of vulgar language aild bullying or roughhousing are also common concerns noted by citizens. The Cities Park and Recreation Commission hosted a town meeting in November to discuss these concerns in a public forum. Initially the feeling was that the "City" should hire an attendant to police the activity at the skate park. As the conversation evolved however it became apparent that the expectation that an attendant could successfully manage conduct at the skate park might not be realistic. The conversation centered on the fact that these are our kids and the community, as a whole should bare the responsibility of communicating our expectations about conduct at the park. The City must partner with the kids, parents, schools, churches, chamber of commerce and the police to successfully model good values and judgment at the park. If you would like to join in this effort to help manage activities at the skate park please contact Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director at 952 227-1129 or by e-mail at thoffman@ci.chanhassen.mn.us " NEWS RELEASE The City ofChanhassen is seeking adult and youth volunteers to meet lis a focus group to discuss a proposed skate park. The sole task of the group will be to prepare a recommended design for a local skate park. It is anticipated that 1 or 2 evening meetings will take place in July. Interested? Contact Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Director @ 937-1900 ext 121. . g:lparklthlslcatepkfocusgroupnewsrel,dòc ;Ã April 9, 2001 Dear Chanhassen Skate Park Users: Our community is offended by the lack of care given to the skate park. Considerable public skepticism was overcome to establish this facility. The perception was that "skaters" use foul language, act inappropriately, and do not . pick up after themselves. Sadly, a portion of the park's visitors has made this perception a reality. H you litter, swear, or are unable to conduct yourself in a respectful manner, you are not welcome at the skate park. If you are a good citizen during your stay at the park, I thank you. However, your good behavior is not enough - you must influence others to do the same. Fail to do so and your privilege of having a skate park is at risk! Sincerely, Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director TH:gmb G:\parkllhlSkate Park Users ,;¡¡ Skate Park Town Meeting November 27, 2001 Attendance: (6) Park and Recreation Commission Members, (11) Citizens, (2) City of Chanhassen Staff Members, and (+) Villager Representative. Notes: · Concern that the new steps will allow "jumping" into the street. (It was agreed to include a traffic control style fence arrangement at the top of the stairs and at the north entry.) · Concern that glass is present. · Should be no smoking, no tobacco, and no glass. · Concerned about the lack of police presence. · Drug dealing has been observed at the park. · City should partner with kids, parents, staff, schools, churches, Chamber of Commerce, and police to help nurtUre a good environment. · Appears that 10-15% of those in attendance cause problems. · Often times, problems are caused by spectators. · Consider creating a skate park association. · Sponsor sorne organized events. · Close the park if necessary. · Is hiring an attendant the right thing to do? · Report back to the Park and Recreation Commission. G:Ipark\!hISJcatePadTowuMtgMinutesll-ZI-01 ,::. MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Todd Hoffman, Director of Parks and Recreatio]! DATE: June 22, 2000 SUBJ: Skate Park Site Improvements As you will recall, the City Council authorized a $5,000 investment in site improvements at the skate park. The primary goal of these improvements was to '. control ,ingress and egress to and from the site. Congestion in the fire station parking lot resulted in safety concerns during fire calls, Installation of a 6-foot high chain link fence surrounding portions of the park has controlled acóess to the fire station. In addition, two concrete benches have been ordered to allow for some seating. If these benches stand up to the use and abuse they will receive, more can be ordered. G:\park\lhlSkateP¡ukSitelmprovements File: Ra-SS9 ,1 MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Todd Hoffman, Director of Parks and Recreation DATE: June 22, 2000 SUBJ: Skate Park Phase II Acquisition On May 31, 2000, the attached request for proposals waS mailed to four skate park manufacturers. Three of those companies; Ramp Tech, Spohn Ranch, and True Ride chose to submit proposals.· Spohn Ranch did not meet our pricing limitations and as such, was eliminated from consideration. The proposals from Ramp Tech and True Ride are similar in design, but differ in their specifications. A comparison of Ramp Tech's proposal and True Ride's Option ill (preferred option) clearly identifies True Ride as the superior performer. Their half pipe is 18' wide versus Ramp Tech's 16' width. The length of the half differs from True Ride's 41' to Ramp Tech's 22'. Ramp Tech proposes two "boxes," but they are only 8' long. The small size would lead to constant reconfignration by users and they could easily be stolen from the site. True Ride only offers one "box," but at a dimension of 6' x 17' provides more aggregate material and a sturdier product. Ramp Tech's rail is straight and 20' long.. True Ride's is kinked and 24' long. True Ride specifies 2 x 6 construction on 8" centers. Ramp Tech also specifies 8" centers but does not identify if the construction members are 2 x 6 or 2 x 4. . Ramp Tech offers a 5-year warranty versus True Rides 2 year warranty. The Ramp Tech warranty is more restrictive than that of True Ride. RECOMMENDATION Both proposals demonstrate a quality effort to meet the request of the City. However, True Ride's proposal is superior to that of Ramp Tech and it is staff's recommendation to accept the True Ride Option ill proposal at a cost of $14,996.66. G:~1IIioD .j MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Todd Hoffman, Director of ParkS and Recreation DATE: May 17,2000 SUBJ: Skate Park Expansion On Monday, May 8, the City Council approved an amendment to the 2000 CIP deleting the second set of hockey boards for City Center Park and adding the 2nd phase of the skate park ($15,000.) In addition, the City Council approved an allocation of $5,000 for skate park site improvements consisting of boundary fencing and seating. I am currently assembling a Request for Proposal packet for distribution the first part of next week. ~~~ ;;'J C'HANHASSEN SKATE PARK fACILITY IS OPEN FROM 6:00AM TO 10:00 PM NO TRESPASSING 10:00 PM TO 6:00 AM · EXPERIENCED AND INEXPERIENCED SKATEBOARDERS AND IN LINE SKATERS USE THIS FACILITY. · THIS AREA HAS BEEN DESIGNED TO PROVIDE USERS WITH A MODERATE CHAllENGE FOR RECREATION PURPOSES AND TO HELP DEVELOP THEIR SKILlS. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DESIGN AND BUILD A FACILITY OF THIS NATURE WITHOUT HARD SURFACES. THE SAME HARD SURFACES THAT CHALLENl?E THE USER POSE SIGNIFICANT RISK OF INJURY IF THE USER FALlS. WARNINGI · THIS FACILITY IS UNSUPERVISED. USERS ASSUME All RISKS INHERENT IN THE USE OF THIS FACILITY. USE MAY RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY AND/OR DEATH. · SKATE WITH SAFETY IN MIND AND REMEMBER WEATHER CONDITIONS MAY CREATE UNSAFE SURFACES FOR USERS. SAFETY EQUIPMENT · IT IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED THAT All SKATERS AND SKATEBOARDERS WEAR: PROTECTIVE HELMETS ELBOW PADS KNEE PADS WRIST PADS · All PARENTS SHOULD REQUIRE THEIR CHILDREN TO WEAR THIS PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT WHILE USING THIS FACILITY. FAILURE TO WEAR PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT WIll EXPOSE USERS TO SERIOUS INJURY AND/OR DEATH UPON FALLING OR COLUSION WITH OTHER USERS. <.-I RULES · Skateboards and in-line skate only, bicycles are prohibited. · No gloss containers, food or beverage allowed on the skating surface. Spills jeòpardize the skaters. · No other items such os benches, tables. wood materials or other objects used as ramps or jumps are allowed in the skate pork facility. · No drugs. alcohol or tobacco products will be permitted at this facility. · No loud music or disorderly behavior will be permitted at thiHacility. · No pets are allowed in the skate park area. · Do not proceed down a ramp until clear of other skaters. · No littering. Please use trash cans. · Spectators are welcome but must stay clear of ramps and apparatus. SERIOUS INJURIES · In case of serious injury or other emergencies use the 911 emergency phone located at the front of the fire station. PARKING/ACCESS Please park in City Hall parking lots and access the facility from the west. RESTROOMS/VENDING Portable restrooms are located adjacent to the Hockey Arena. Indoor restrooms, soda vending, and water fountain are located in the lower level of City Hall during business hours. Use the library entrance. MAINTAINING THE FACILITY Please report maintenance concerns to the Park & Recreation Department at 952-227-1100. Messages may be left 24 hours per day. CHANHASSEN PARKS AND RECREATION DEPARTMENT RESERVES THE RIGHT TO: · Close the facility for any circumstances deemed necessary. · Restrict entry to the facility and to ask persons to leave the facility if any of the rules are not followed, or if unsafe or inappropriate behavior is observed. · This is your pork. Please cooperate - make this an enjoyable & safe 'facility. ;::.1