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1a Approval of Minutes CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MAY 24, 2005 Chairman Stolar called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Glenn Stolar, Jack Spizale, Paula Atkins, Steve Scharfenberg, Ann Murphy, and Kevin Dillon MEMBERS ABSENT: Tom Kelly STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Todd Neils Eric Kittelson Rian Thiele Bryant Benzinger Jon Kraus Brandon Bagley Luke Moffatt Marsha Gaulke Ed & Nate Janowski Bob Numrich Todd & Zak Owens Tony Oberstar Elise Dye Ray Hardtse Ryan Sage Anthony Huot ? Tim Woodworth Bob Harold Deb Lloyd Janet Paulsen 990 Saddlebrook Curve Sheriff s Office Sheriff's Office 8581 Mission Hills Lane 8008 Cheyenne A venue 911 Penamint Court Nez Perce Court 890 Saddlebrook Pass 890 Saddlebrook Pass 1321 Lake Drive West #316 6535 Peaceful Lane 2170 Baneberry Way West 18630 Magenta Bay, Eden Prairie 1851 Sunridge Court 930 Powyaki Lane 950 Saddlebrook Trail 425 Chanview Road 7741 Chanhassen Road 7411 Frontier Trail 7302 Laredo Drive 7305 Laredo Drive (Taping of the meeting began at this point in the discussion.) RESPONSE TO CITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION CONCERNING SKATE PARK. Hoffman: .. . we have with the skate park that were featured in an article in the Villager Newspaper and also in a couple editorials in the Villager newspaper the week following that. On Monday, May 9th, the same day City Council passed a resolution concerning the city skate park. Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 The park, the skate park has received very heavy use since it's opening in 1999. Approximately 25,000 user visits to the park each year. The issues of foul language, underage smoking, broken glass, litter, graffiti and inappropriate conduct to a certain degree have been present at the park since the day we opened. In doing research for tonight's meeting and for the staff report, which is being distributed. Thanks Jerry. We've gone through these issues in 2001, so just 2 years after the skate park was opened. About the same type of exercise. The park was closed for a short period of time. There were letters to the newspaper talking about the, at that time again the litter is the number one complaint that the city receives. The language and conduct is the second complaint that the city receives. Those same issues were talked about in 2001. There's a variety of potentially remedies that were discussed at that time and the park was re-opened and continued to operate until 2005 when we started this spring with the vandalism incident which has prompted these discussions. Chairman Stolar and I met. Held a preliminary conversation. We have some ideas but I think it's most appropriate at this time to hear from the audience and the deputies that are here for this this evening. The deputies deal with this on a daily basis and I can tell you from 5 years to 6 years of having conversations with them, although they would like to have more time to stop at the skate park and interact with the kids, we have a limited contract with Carver County that provides a certain level of base level service, and unfortunately the skate park is not at the top of their list. They have much more pressing issues to go deal with on a daily basis.. .so although when there's incidents at the skate park we all, or many of the people in this community think it should be a law enforcement issue. It's not reasonable to think that law enforcement is going to solve the problems at the skate park. They can certainly assist but they can't be there.. .of the day so Chair Stolar, I'll turn it over to you and you can go through the visitor presentations... Stolar: Without objection, may we open it for our visitors? Okay. What I'd like to do is intermix this a little bit so if the sheriffs department people wouldn't mind, I'd like to have one of our guests go first and then ask you to come and join us. Okay, does one of the guests wish to make a statement? If you would, state your name and address. Bryant Benzinger: I'm Bryant Benzinger. I live in Chanhassen, 8581 Mission Hills Lane. Skate park, I think it's a great place. I mean there's like kids, I go down and you think that there's just hoodlums a lot of adults, I know that go down there, but in the past there's been a lot of trash and stuff and they ask us to take care of that last year. There was probably trash up to my knees. Now we took care of that and if you notice there's not that much trash like there used to be last year. There's a lot of good kids that go down there and the park is like more a place for people to stay out of trouble. I know cops and police officers asked us to not street skate, so they point to the park to go. Where are we going to go ifthe park's closed? A lot of people instead of damaging other property and getting in trouble and vandalizing, when the park opened when I started going up there was about 4 years ago and it's been a pretty good place for me to go instead of spending my time on the streets going other places and doing whatever. I go up there instead to skate. And learn a lot of good things. Teach other. Sharing and stuff. Taking turns on the ramps you know. Stolar: Thank you, that's it? Thank you very much. Would you like to make a statement? Do you want to come forth? 2 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Eric Kittelson: Hi, I'm Eric Kittelson. Currently the evening supervisor in Chanhassen. I'm here in place of Sergeant Jim Olson who couldn't be here tonight. Skate park and skating are always kind of a hot issue no matter where you go. I have worked in other cities that don't have skate parks and we certainly spend a lot more of our time dealing with skaters and as the young man before me said, we tell them they can't skate there and they ask us where they can skate and generally speaking there isn't a good place for them to skate. Since I've worked here, we have relatively little calls of kids skateboarding other places. Generally speaking the only two areas that really concern me are the new library area and the park there, especially because of the nature of the damage those skateboards do to that stone work and the area near Subway and Spalon Montage, because there's a rail there that apparently likes to get ridden occasionally, which is extremely dangerous because that corner, cars come around that corner and cannot see them. Looking at the resolution and the different items, there certainly should be some more discussion. Some of the things that I would like to be involved in possibly further discussions are the fee I don't think is a bad idea. Many kids in many other cities pay a fee to go to a city pool each summer, and certainly several dollars for a day pass or weekend pass or for a summer pass I don't think is too much to ask and it certainly does, because the majority of the calls that we get are not from the diehard skateboarders, and there's certainly a stigma attached to the skateboarders and the way they dress and the way they look. It's not the diehard skateboarders that are the issue. It's the fringe element that hang around the skate park. Most of our calls for marijuana usage or foul language or littering and the different things are the kids who are hanging out in their cars outside of the skate park or on the picnic tables at the skate park that don't own a skateboard and have never owned a skateboard, so if some type of fee could be imposed that would allow there to be some type of staffing there to check passes or to maintain some kind of behavior, I think that could be very effective. The JSA W is also in the community. We've never had any calls there but it's staffed by older youth, 16-17 year old high school kids or by adults and other than some again issues that we had with the radio tower site near there which was again some kids that were hanging out with, you know kind of in that area. I don't know that they were necessarily involved with that, but JSA W seems to run pretty effectively with supervision and it's also more of an industrial area so it's not quite as visible to the public but. And the other thing that I think would, it would be useful to have some further discussion on is an ordinance regarding skateboarding. Waconia, where I first started working has a very effective ordinance. There is no skateboarding in the downtown business district, and it's clearly defined in the city ordinance that you cannot skateboard in the 6 block area and I think, in addition to that, it's more of a city ordinance in that we don't have to deal with it in a criminal manner. We impounded the skateboards in Waconia. We stored them at city hall and the parents had to come with the child to pick it up and it was a $25 fee to get it back. I never impounded a skateboard from a single child 2 times, so it's pretty clear right away that because that is, and you talk about behavior that's associated around the skate park. It's not always criminal in nature unless the disorderliness is just to such an extent that yeah, we're going to issue them a citation for disorderly conduct. It's usually kind of that... behavior where yeah, there's some swearing going on but it's not to the level of something that we can necessarily enforce in a criminal manner so, and it can certainly be that anyone that was around the skate park or in the skate park that was acting in that manner could have their skateboard impounded, confiscated. They would have to come and pay a ci vii fee. It's not too much unlike the tobacco civil citations that we used to do for smoking. You know I think they had 10 days to come to city hall and pay for that. If they didn't pay it within 10 days, then it turned into a criminal 3 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 citation. It was referred to the county attorney so. Other than those 2 things, that's really all I have. I guess in addition to that, you know we don't get a lot more calls to the skate park than we do to Lake Ann, and if you think of the size of Lake Ann, we get calls there also except for it's not as visible because unless you're actually in the park, it's just the other people in the park. The skate park is very visible to people in the downtown area. So if you look at the number of calls for service based on this is another city park compared to some of the other parks, especially North Lotus Lake, it's actually probably not that bad. And it certainly helps us because we know where they all are. You know they're in one spot so, and it has helped us in the past when we are looking for someone who we need to find, we can usually either look at the skate park or ask the kids at the skate park so I think the people that are here today that are really into skateboarding obviously the fact that they took their time to come out here tonight is they're not our problem. And if we can restrict the use to people who are into skateboarding and treat it like a sport, just like mountain biking or anything else, and keep that fringe element away that just wants to hang out there for something to do, I think the fees and possibly some type of ordinance that allows us to actually enact and take a skateboard away I think would be very successful. Stolar: Thank you very much. If you don't mind waiting one second. Are there any questions the commissioners had? Spizale: I've got one question. So you're basically saying that a lot of the problems are from people that are hanging on the edges of the skate park. Eric Kittelson: Yeah. Spizale: Not exactly in it but hanging around the sides of it so to speak. Eric Kittelson: Pretty much I can say almost 100% any call I've had there regarding behavior has been from someone who does not have a skateboard with them. Whether they're inside the skate park, sitting on the picnic table just kind of watching or hanging out, or if they're in their car out front of the skate park. It generally has not ever been the kids that are actually there to skate. Because they do take it pretty seriously and like I said, it's no different than rollerblading or bicycling or anything of that nature. They treat it as a sport and the people that are into it, they put a lot of time into it and they're generally not the kids that we have problems with. Just the ones that are there to either watch or hang out there that aren't involved in the actual skating. Stolar: Okay, thanks. Scharfenberg: Would you envision somebody just kind of a park time person out there kind of monitoring, because you talked about kind of a part time person during certain hours? Eric Kittelson: Yeah, I think we would have to start with targeting certain hours. Friday- Saturday evenings. Maybe Saturday day. Holiday weekends. Things of that nature. No different than the lifeguards or anyone else that we hire. Like I said you know, there's not a community out there that has a community pool that doesn't charge some type of fee and this is 4 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 expensive to maintain you know, and to keep it safe for the kids to skate on so I think it is a privilege. It's not a right that every city has a skate park, but just the same as the pool. Atkins: Does Waconia have a skate park? Eric Kittelson: Waconia did not when I was there. I don't know if they've built one since. I don't believe they have but their ordinance, and if you're familiar with the city was from Lake Street to Second Street, from Orange Street over to Maple was a non-skating area. And that was because that was the commercial and retail business area and you know the shop owners are all small businesses. They're not, and so the complaints mostly came in that area so that's what they basically banned skating in that area and if you had time you'd stop and deal with the matter. If you didn't, you'd roll down you window and say, you know they had to pick it up and walk and if not then you'd confiscate the skateboard. They'd come to city hall and pay $25 fee and the fee has to be less than what a new skateboard is so it has to be something reasonable. Enough to let them know that it's, that it means something. Hoffman: A follow up point, they did build a skate park and they have experienced some of the same issues that we're going through and I think a local church is stepping to help out with some of their issues. Atkins: Do they charge a fee? Hoffman: No. Atkins: How about Chaska, do you know? Hoffman: Chaska does not. Shakopee does. Their community center. Eric Kittelson: Yeah, Chaska's got a pretty informal skate park. This is, from what I know, one of the nicer skate parks in the metro area. And the kids are lucky to have it so. Stolar: Ann, you wanted to say. Murphy: Yeah, I have a question. One of the concerns that I have is being at the senior center quite a bit to volunteer I noticed that when the seniors are walking, a lot of them are not particularl y steady on their feet or they may have problems walking. A lot of the skateboarders are kind of coming right in front of them. Skating right in front of them. Could knock them off balance pretty easily so I think that seems to be a problem from what I've seen here at our senior center. With that ordinance, do you think that would help cut down. Eric Kittelson: Yeah, if we consider that in the business district that there was no skating, because that is the area that we have problems with, and I don't know if it's coming or going from the skate park, but they're skating or coming but I've seen unfortunately as soon as the library and the park area around there between city hall was done we started noticing damage almost the next day. And unfortunately it's such nice stone work there that the skateboards have chipped all the edges of the planter, benches, basically and that type of thing, and some of the 5 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 bricks so, and like I said, pretty much the market square area around Subway and Spalon Montage up through the skate park is definitely an area that still can be an issue. Murphy: Have any of the seniors been injured? Eric Kittelson: Not that I'm aware of no. Stolar: Kevin, did you have any questions? Dillon: No questions. Stolar: Thank you very much. Appreciate you taking the time. Any other members of our audience wish to make a comment, please feel free to come up. Tony Oberstar: I'm Tony Oberstar. I live down on Baneberry Way West. Just moved there. But I've been using the park since it opened up when I was rollerblading or skateboarding now. It's a great place. I go there as many days as I can during the week. One thing I wanted to know about is, with that skateboard ordinance, with them skating by the senior center, will that be included for transportation? Using the skateboard as transportation. I talked to Officer Mike one time from skateboarding down the street. I don't know if people called on me or what, using it for transportation and he said I was fine because I was using it as transportation, not recreation. Stolar: I think the ordinance issue has just come up in this discussion but I think that's something to clarify. Murphy: What I was referring to was people skateboarding right in front of or right behind an elderly person that is not, have the greatest balance. I was concerned. There was someone that was almost injured when I was here the other day so I was concerned about that. Not necessarily normal. Hoffman: That would be included. If this spins off into a conversation about an ordinance, we would talk about bikes. Just like Excelsior bans all uses in their downtown, so you would have to, are you going to allow bikes for transportation. Are you going to allow skateboards for transportation? Inline skates and so that would be a conversation that we would have to have at a different time. Stolar: Right, and I think it would have the opportunity for all points of view to be discussed as part of it. Tony Oberstar: Also I know like if you were to have someone there on duty, the time of day you probably need them is during the day. At the night most the people use it are the people who are very into skateboarding as you were talking about who use it strictly as the skate park. They don't use it for dealing up there or horsing around or anything like that and that's the only time you'd really need somebody. The night time is, I don't know when most the calls they get for the marijuana usage or whatever are but most the time when I'm up there and I do see that bad behavior, it's during the daytime, maybe about up until about 3:00 on Saturdays. And I go there 6 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 for many hours from sun up. Been there before the clean up crew comes to I think, I don't know what they are, community service people are cleaning up the park. I've been there before them and really the only bad time is midday. Stolar: Thank you. I should ask, do any commissioners have questions? Okay, anyone else like to speak? Marsha Gaulke: Hi. My name is Marsha Gaulke. I live over on Saddlebrook Pass. First of all I want to say thank you for supporting the skateboarders. Some of the comments that the officer made I agree with. We do a lot of swimming over at Lake Ann and I hear offensive language and see inappropriate behavior so for the most part I think it is the very few at the bottom of the curve that are being disruptive and using foul language. And to ask the boys that skate and enjoy skating to step up is a hard thing. It's a hard thing for teenagers to ask people to break up a fight or quit swearing or pick up your garbage. And it's great if our kids can do that and we can encourage it and I think we can encourage them to clean up. Obviously this boy here does it. And to close the park I feel is not addressing the issue. It's getting rid of the problem. So as an overall picture, closing the park isn't the answer. It's just moving the problem somewhere else. And then the kids that do enjoy it lose out. And as far as skating in front of an elderly person, you know I bet you there's not many people that do that. And the person who did it, obviously is way out of line. I'm guessing that's pretty inappropriate behavior. And maybe it was ignorance but for the most part I think they're good kids and we need to address the issue instead of just hide it. Cold spark... Stolar: Any questions? Commissioners, if you have a question, just pipe it in for one of our visitor presentations. Other presentations or comments? Jon Kraus: I'm Jon Kraus. I live at 8008 Cheyenne Avenue. For the transportation thing, usually the rollerbladers, we usually have our feet strapped into our rollerblades when we're there and so whenever we go to the gas station or something to Wendy's to pick up some food, we usually have those strapped to our feet still. So we try to stay out of people's way because they're not the funnest things to run into people with. And as for the bikes, people have gotten pretty good leaving them outside the park. Usually they're outside of it or in front of the park. That's gotten pretty well over the years. Thanks. Elise Dye: I'm Elise Dye. I live on 18630 Magenta Bay in Eden Prairie. First of all I'd just like to say that I agree with what the officer was saying about the fringe kids. They're the ones that are causing the problems. Kids who really love to skateboard are great kids and I think that it's like sad that there's such a stereotype around them. We don't all drink, do drugs, swear and litter. I love JSA W. It's a really cool place. The nice thing about Chanhassen is that it's outside and now that summer's coming it's so nice to be outside and it's just a fun place. Like every time you go, all your friends are there. You can see everyone. And it's just nice to be with them. And I think that is a place to stay out of trouble rather than a place to get into trouble. As far as the visible trash and stuff, I don't think that that's been much of a problem anymore. I don't see very much trash. I think that everyone could do a little bit better job but it's just like any city park, there will be trash occasionally and it's not the.. . but we should continue to work 7 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 on that. Yeah, I just think that's a really great place and I have a question. Is it locked during the time that it's closed? Stolar: No. Wasn't that something in one of the documents that we had? Hoffman: It's not locked from 10:00 to 6:00 a.m., no. Elise Dye: And I don't know, I think at least from the article I had seen that the vandalism happened like late Sunday night between, late Sunday night and early Monday morning which would be when the park is closed, so I think if anyone went out to spray paint or whatever they used, was into skateboarding, I think for sure that we would walk out and say like what are you doing? Like you can't do that here you know. Everyone's there to skateboard. There are the fringe kids that might be causing the problems, but I think that that's definitely more a thing that would help this situation if you locked it when it's closed. Because my guess is that it happened when the lights were off. Or else the city can't see what's going on rather than when the lights are on and it's pretty visible and so when someone's sneaking in, so. Stolar: Thank you. Todd Owens: Well I'm one of the old guys that uses it. I'm the near 50 crowd and I've got kids that use it, but I use it. I'm 48. I'm a long boarder by. Oh I'm sorry, Todd Owens. Peaceful Lane, Chanhassen. We've been using this I believe since it's been open and I'm a long boarder so it's a little harder on the ramps to do my stuff, but I like the city streets personally but I don't do the rail section so you don't have to look at me. But my boys know how to do that but no, we've enjoyed it but you know the language thing, the times I've been there, I hung out at Hyland for 11 years now with my boys and I've got 5 sons and we've snowboarded for 11 years, and there's language. I mean you get around...you run into language in city hall. You're going to run into that. You can't, we can do stuff as parents about it but you're going to have a hard time doing it publicly. At least that's my belief, and that's why I personally have hung out with my own boys at these places because you can have a, you can teach them the right thing to do. But as far as the park, you know hearing that it might close and things like that, I don't see personally a justification for it. I don't know what the costs are associated with it. If there was a pass fee or something, I don't know if the other parks in the city have a season pass type of arrangement or not, but we've enjoyed it. We've appreciated it. It's nice to know our tax dollars are going for it. I do see it personally as a fringe benefit for being in Chanhassen. Like the bike trails and everything else, we enjoy those too so thanks for keeping it so appreciate it, thanks. Stolar: Any other comments? Terry Campbell: I actually have a question. I have a question of the officer. I'm actually with the Chanhassen Athletic Association, but my name's Terry Campbell and I live in Saddleridge Trail North. And do you think that if you do try the fees with these kids, that it will keep the other kids away just because they, I mean they don't go in the park you say sometimes. But do you think that would keep those other kids away that do cause the trouble? 8 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Eric Kittelson: Yeah, and I didn't want to start a whole discussion on ordinances and other things but those are some of the ideas that could make the park better if it were to be re-opened. And to address several of the comments that were made by the rest of the people here, to the one young lady, I think she may have said the most intelligent thing here tonight. It is a place for most the kids to go to stay out of trouble rather than get into trouble and as far as you know if there were to be some type of fee enacted, it's a special use item. Not used by the majority of the public. Just like a pool, community pool's a special use and I think a skate park is a very special use. Terry Campbell: Specific group of kids. Eric Kittelson: Very specific use. It's used for only one thing, the same as the pool is, and so those were ideas thrown out there from my perspective. Yeah, and I think she's also right that it certainly probably happened after hours and... For the people that are here that skate, no different than something that happens in the school. You guys are going to find out who did this before we will and there's not enough being done as to prove, you know who did, no one goes out and does this thing on their own. When a kid throws a rock through a window, they're never by themselves. It's not fun to do by yourself, so there's been talk and there's people out there that know who did this and if we catch them, they will pay and reimburse the city for it to be fixed, so you know, people that are there that, you know you should take this as a violation on something that you love. They're trying to, because this was taken from you and there's definitely, because the investigation hasn't gone very far so far. And so there are people out there that know. . . vandalism that happened at Eckankar not too long ago. It took a while but we finally were able to identify those people and so, somebody out there knows something. Terry Campbell: Well I appreciate the fact that you're trying to help the kids and not just go and say, you know take... I think that's nice that the department's trying to help them. Stolar: Thank you. Other comments? Okay, seeing none and I will allow that, as we do our discussion, if something comes up, I'll open up the session again for people to comment because I think this is an important issue. I'd like to just bring it back to the commission members now and I guess open it up for questions to staff or our guests. Paula, why don't you start. Atkins: Has there been a noticeable improvement in the trash, or there not being as much trash? I mean it seems like it's always been a huge issue. As far as garbage. Hoffman: Yeah, as a department we've not noticed a significant improvement. We pick it up every morning. Some of the comments talking about trash in other parks, as the Director I've always said that. We pick up trash everywhere in every park in the city. It just happens to be very concentrated at the skate park and very visible, so it also spills over into the city hall parking lots and so when people come to work or meetings in the morning, which typically are government officials, city employees, law enforcement, council people, they see it and they're very turned off by it and we hear about it almost immediately. Atkins: It's not ever... 9 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: Plenty of garbage cans in the skate park. Garbage just doesn't get there at some level. Stolar: Anything else Paula? Atkins: Not right now. Stolar: Steve. Scharfenberg: I guess I just had a question, not for staff but for the young adults who are here tonight. What about the fee? What does, is that something you'd be willing to pay to keep the park open. Use that to staff a person and whoever wants to can I guess come up and talk to that. Stolar: Does anyone? Elise Dye: I'd be willing to pay the fee, but the one thing is that they're talking about how fringe kids that aren't even in the park, I don't know if that's going to keep them from smoking marijuana in their cars. I don't know what the difference would be if we're paying to go in there. Stolar: I think it would be the fact that we have a supervisor there to help alert, because they would also have, at least the ability to contact law enforcement if they see it occurring outside or inside. Elise Dye: Yeah, I think that we'd be willing to pay but that's like the nice thing about Chanhassen. You can go for an hour and your skateboard, it's not like you have to make a day of it you know, and it's like a lot of the indoor parks, they charge and then have like higher ramps and stuff that you can do, but. Scharfenberg: How much do the indoor parks charge? Elise Dye: Third Layer...I think is $12.00 for like a 3 hour session. But I mean it's a much bigger. It's not the size of the Chanhassen. And JSA W is free now so I mean, and that's basically an indoor park. Stolar: Okay. Did you want to make a comment also? Resident: Yeah, I guess we'd be willing to pay some kids. One thing about like, as she said you know these are most the trouble's going on with the people who don't skate so they're not going to be paying for you know the cost or anything. The bigger parks and stuff, you pay at the bigger parks but these parks are like big. Like Third Layer, it's $13.00 for 3 hours but like the park is literally 40,000 square feet. I know the Underpass is like 15 or 20. And it's not even full like they are, and their ramps are like anywhere up to like 12 feet high, and so yeah that's it. Murphy: Todd, do we have any ordinance right now about skateboarding on the streets within the offices? The streets right here around the senior center and the library. 10 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: No ordinance, no. We have a rule that you shall not skateboard in this park. City Center Park. Murphy: Are we able to enforce it or how would we enforce that? Hoffman: We talk to them on a yearly basis. Law enforcement talks to them. Staff members. Library employees. Murphy: So what would an ordinance do that that doesn't do? Hoffman: Provides that hook. That ability to confiscate the board and get the fine. Murphy: So for the skateboarders, as far as trans, we talked about transportation into the park. Would it be a hardship to walk your board in and out of the park right here by the senior center? Is that an issue? No? Okay. Stolar: I think one person mentioned Rollerblades. Having to take those off, but there are ways to do that. Using sidewalks. I think the big issue we had here was people doing it on the benches, fountains. Murphy: Yeah, it's not a one or two times that I've seen it. I've seen it over and over again right here, in and out of the skate park with elderly people. I've seen that repeatedly so it's not something that I've just seen once or twice. But maybe if we could just kind of walk our skateboards in and out around this area right here. Dillon: It's a classic case of a few bad apples ruining the whole deal so I think we need to try to work to some sort of solution to try to keep the park open, because it is a great amenity. My kids have used it and it's, you know a few years ago when it wasn't quite I guess the problem it's become. Anyways, so you know, the fee thing. I agree. I think everyone is you know, that might be a solution but just to kind of keep a little extra, the lifeguard there. But then again, and that's one issue. But then the other is the litter. Now that, maybe that's something there can just be some, you know a little more higher level of volunteerism by the people that use the park on a regular basis. That might be part of the solution also. Something we can't really do by fee but it's something we need to, I think needs to be explored. Spizale: I tend to agree with Kevin. I think that park should be kept open. I think you as a group need to place yourselves a little bit more, I know it's hard but if you want to keep this park you're going to have to pick up somebody else's trash. You're going to have to work with the police officers to keep order in the park, and I also think that we have to have some type of supervision, at least during peak times to control the park. But I think we should keep it open. Stolar: Todd, I have a couple of questions for you. One, since this issue has surfaced, what has been the feedback you have directly or indirectly received? More formally, what directly have you received? 11 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: There's been a number of users who have stopped by the office and talked about basically asking when it's going to be opened, and we've had some conversations about the issues and we weren't quite sure when it was going to be opened so I've talked to half a dozen at least that way. Ed Scheller, who was a resident, called in this morning. He lives at 870 Kimberly Lane. He got the impression, he was retired and he walks to the post office every day and walks by the skate park. His opinion the skate park was the best thing the city has ever done for the youth of our community and he wants to see it re-open. So that was a phone call I took this morning. Had a phone call from a very irate citizen, a father on Monday who was very upset that the skate park was closed and wanted to see it re-opened. So and I've talked to Councilman Lundquist. He has received some calls of support for the action that the city has taken to close it down. Enter into another conversation about what we can do at the skate park. And so those have been the direct type of contact. I've not received a lot of written materials or letters, e- mails. Stolar: Well we have a gentleman that has a question. If you don't mind... Please. I want to make this more interactive because I think this issues requires dialogue. No, please. Bob Numrich: I'm Bob Numrich. I live down in the Powers Ridge Apartments and my son is a very avid skateboarder. Anywhere he can find a place to skateboard, he wants to do it, and this is a great thing for him. It just occurred to me listening here, rather than thinking about charging a fee, I think like the young lady said, is one of the great things about it is you can go for an hour and you don't have to pay. It may not sound like a lot but for kids it's a little, so one thing I think that they used to do at JSA W, they had volunteer programs. Kids could sign up to do stuff, and I'm wondering whether you shouldn't try to do some sort of a volunteer corps and get these kids, you sign up and you know they're responsible for being there and maybe they've got a staff or something and they get rewarded after some, putting in so many hours. They get something. And that would give them a stake in this thing. And it would be, you know it'd make them the important kid there so think about that. Stolar: Thank you. Thank you for the suggestion. Eric Kittelson: When I brought up the fee, I was looking at something nominal. It's like a free puppy or a free kitten versus a $20 kitten. It's just something to show that you know, and obviously most of these kids aren't old enough to work yet or have maybe part time jobs, and as far as the kids that were on the fringe that have the cars and people that are driving cars, they're usually not skating. They're into other things at that point in their life. But what they do is they hang out inside. They can go back to their car and smoke and whether it's cigarettes, marijuana or drink or do whatever. And so any type of fee would be something obviously up to the city council but would be a nominal fee to show some type of ownership that hey, I am serious about using this for this and I don't think it's unreasonable because a city bike path is paid for by tax dollars as well as the skate park. However a bike path is used by runners, walkers, bikers, skateboarders, rollerbladers, it's used by everybody and as far as any type of, the square goes here. The amount of money that was put into beautifying this area instead of having an open green field. My recommendation would be no biking, no skateboarding. Knowing that you can walk your bike a block across through there. And because of the senior center and the library being there, there is a lot of traffic. Pedestrian traffic there that is elderly or that are retired that 12 j Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 go the library during the day that you know they can't get out of the way of a skateboard or a speeding cyclists or anything of that nature. Just a simple sign that this area closed to pedestrian traffic only. And we want that to last for a long time. It's a really nice look to the downtown area when you come down 78th Street that represents what Chanhassen is, and there's been a lot of damage there. And it's only been 2 years now? So, that's all. Stolar: I'd like to make some comments and continuing with our discussion here. A few things. One, I think there are 3 different things I've heard come up here, and I'd like to, well 4 actually, and separate those. One is an ordinance regarding skateboarding in the downtown area. That actually is not within the purview of this group. That would be a city ordinance. I appreciate it because it puts the whole issue in context, and I think it allows us to isolate that piece of it. That doesn't have to do with the skate park but that activity adds to the perception of behavior that may not be directly attributable to the skate park, so I think it is an important issue and I don't know if we want to just reflect to the City Council that it certainly is something worth their looking into because again it addresses I think what Kevin said. You want to get the bad apples and some of the bad behavior addressed, but that doesn't, that particular issue doesn't have to do with the skate park. Going through the city park here though somewhat does because of the location of the skate park, and that is within our purview I believe because we were the ones that put the, per staff recommendation, put the signs on so if the city does consider an ordinance, just from the past history of this group, we've been in favor of eliminating skateboarding in City Center Park here. Outside the city hall and by the library, so I think those are two issues. I think a third issue is graffiti. And Todd and I talked about this. Graffiti happens. It happens all over the place. It is not unique to the skate park, so I personally don't consider that also to be a part of what, and for the material that I included and wrote up in this document, I don't consider that a part of what we can address with the skate park. You close it down and you leave it an open field, somebody could spray paint the asphalt. It doesn't change that, so again I'd like to take that away. So then that leaves us with the issue that the City Council asked us which was, within 30 days come up with a plan to eliminate the occurrences of foul language, excessive litter. They talk about graffiti although I don't think that that's something particular to the skate park, especially since it did occur after hours. It wasn't someone using the skate park doing the graffiti. And again I think I agree with Kevin. It's a few bad apples. I'm speaking as an individual commission member. I don't believe it is our job to regulate behavior. It's our job to offer safe, secure programming for the citizens. And to me, the skate park's well used. That doesn't eliminate us doing things that might help improve the, or enhance the reduction of these occurrences. Elimination is the term they used. I don't think we can do that either. One person throws a gum wrapper on the ground, we failed to eliminate. Certainly we can reduce though, and I think the reduction comes in many different forms. These young adults coming here is one way, and it is your park and it is up to you to help make sure this park is still around. By helping the officers find out who the bad people are. By coming here and telling us you want it open. I think that's all great. But I do think given the discussions we've had, that potentially some sort of focus, supervision might be advantageous in helping reduce some of the occurrences. And in order to do that we may need to do some sort of fee, and that's you know from my personal, as commission member, I want to keep it open. I would want to see a plan though that included some thought of two main things. One, can we get focused, identified supervision that makes sense. If we can isolate that these occurrences are occurring in certain periods, because we can't do supervision through the entire time the park's open. That's just not feasible. The second 13 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 thing I have a question to the parents in the audience. We tried this in one of the memos that Todd Hoffman put in our packet, and I think was distributed out there to you. A while ago we had an open forum to ask parents to be involved in the skate park. Perhaps even through a parents association that helps work with the city to keep that a safe and secure opportunity for our children and our users and some adult users. That's just something I think we ought to encourage is the formation of a skate park association. Parents association that helps remind the kids who are using it, let's pick up the litter you know when you go. We were on a walk today at Lake Ann Park. We found some litter on the ground, we picked it up. We threw it in the garbage can. It's a simple process. Things like that that could help the perception because it's right here in our city center to help improve it, so my belief is keep it open. Ask the parents to get involved. Do something to try and get a parents association involvement, and then I do think some sort of focus supervision. Or assistance there. The city does ask us, City Council has mandated within 30 days we come up with a plan. I would assume that involves us having a motion here for staff at some point. Resident: I have another comment. I like your idea of getting the parents involved because... it's hard to find volunteers, but as a parent I'm way over committed to my children because these I think it's important to spend time with them and I don't care if my daughter's who 14 doesn't want me around, I'm going to be there. Because she's gotten in trouble when I've not been around. She does things that aren't the best you know, 14 year old girls don't use their heads sometimes. I like that idea and I think maybe if you charged maybe a $20 season pass that the kids would have a card with a number on it and whoever, the parents take turns at the gate. Write down the number of the kids that come in so they know which kids are in this group because they have to maybe have a picture on it or something so they know what kids are at the skate park. They have it on a list and the parents maybe have to take one... You can't hire someone, I personally wouldn't want my 18 year old son to stand at the skate...because I think I'd be afraid for him sometimes. But I would want that person to make money so the kids have to have a season pass before they got up there because there shouldn't be anyone with any money there. Stolar: Yeah, I would agree. I can't see a gate collection process. Over at the rec center we use the punch cards as an example. Resident; But like the kids say, they don't want to just go for an hour and pay $20.00 or whatever, but that season pass that allows them to come in from this date to this date at a certain time, that might solve a little bit of problems having to pay too much money because kids you know, they don't have a lot of money sometimes but that's just my idea from a concerned parent. Stolar: And I guess just from a point of order, I don't know that we necessarily today have to have the details of the plan. We just have to have an approach for the City Council, if I understand correctly. Right Todd? Hoffman: A response. 14 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Stolar: A response. I mean it doesn't have to be all laid out in detail so we would investigate things like the season pass or any punch card. And again that doesn't mean that this commission agrees with what I say either. Commission can make it's own choice. Any else? Atkins: I'm still on the foul language thing now. I'd like some feedback from the skaters that are here. Is that bothersome to you? Is that offensive to you? Personally. Elise Dye: What I think about the style of language, there's a lot of like in the article it kind of like sounded as if like we are abusing like the skate park...stuff like that, and then.. .with language but like I've never heard anyone swear at another person... It's not directed at another person. I feel that between each other, everyone is extremely.. . help each other learn. Like really helpful. The only swearing is like you know you dump your trick. You say a bad word. Just the same as if you go to the city park, someone shooting baskets. They miss a shot. They say a bad word, you know. It's the same thing. You hear swear words when you go to the gas station. When you go to the mall. You know in a movie. Your kids are going to learn swear words on the bus ride home from school from the kids that are their age. You're going to hear, you're going to learn the swear words, you know. It's not good to swear but like I don't swear. I never say any swear words but like Todd was saying, I think that swearing is an issue that you need to deal with at home. You need to teach your kids not to swear and you need to not swear and I think that that's the only way that you can get rid of the problem. You can't expect to, in the skate park like as a city you can't make there be no swearing. Like you can't make a law of no swearing. It's impossible to regulate, you know. But just as, like everywhere else you go occasionally you hear a bad word but I don't think that there's any way that you can, like we can all work on not swearing but I don't think that there's a way to completely regulate it. Atkins: Well said. I'm also wondering, there seems to be a concern by parents and younger skaters that their younger skaters are exposed to language that they don't approve of, because you're all there at the same time often. Do you think it's a good idea to have a set time for younger skaters? Does that seem like a good idea? Like up to age 7 or 8 or something like that, would that help? Todd Owens: ...You know there again, he's going to be exposed to it. We've talked about it. You know everything from colorful metaphors to direct talk, but we talk about it in an open conversation in our house but the, on the age limit, a time limit, no. It's the parents. I think Elise had a good idea, I don't know if she brought it up but if the park is locked up from, during the closing hours, and I don't know how much you know obviously it's another thing for the city to do so it's more cost. I don't know what it takes to lock it up but, during the closed hours. And it does go back again to the fact that it's... Who knows if maybe some day whoever did whatever the main issue was, and I'm not that up on what the big issue was that kind of tripped the whole thing. They probably didn't like skateboarders for all we know. You know if it's somebody totally on the fringe, unassociated. It could have been a parent that was mad, you know I mean really.. . Eric Kittelson: The language that was spray painted was senseless dribble. It had nothing to do, it wasn't against skateboarders. It wasn't again.. . someone who was really bored. 15 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Resident: I just wanted to add something. My observation is that I think the young lady is too, I see a lot of teaching...big kids and the little kids and they're teaching each other. The little kids are learning these tricks from the older kids. It's really a nice experience from what I've seen. Stolar: To add to that, my actual question was almost not even related to this issue that I'd asked Todd which is, do the younger children actually get the opportunity to use the equipment when it's open for all, and it sounds like the answer is yes. Elise Dye: Yes, I definitely think that little kids get a chance. It's all a rotation, and everyone does like. ..everyone gets a chance and aIso...is that you have friends that are like 10 years older than you and 10 years younger than you, and that makes no difference. You're all as one like big family all together and it's all encouragement and...not like pushing up. Stolar: Alright, thank you. Todd Owens: I almost think there's a code of ethics that would be interesting to get into. There really is if you watch it. Resident: I'd like just to add that I mean as far as like a year ago, every, there's no age group that, they all get together. I went down to that. . . when they first, the JSA W thing and like kids down there, we get together. You don't even know a kid and just like skateboarding you get that friend and you meet new people. They go down and show you stuff that you've never seen before or you don't know about, and like... went down there and this kid showed us what to do and where to go. You know just different things like that. An example is this security guard was kind of yelling at skateboarders and we just got all together as skateboarders and said hey, it's not right to yell at our skateboarders... Resident: My kids started going there when they were much younger and I would go with them just because I was concerned and occasionally we heard words that we don't use in our house, and my advice to them was don't ever repeat that. That's not language we use so I think as far as kids being, younger kids being exposed to language, their parents probably. . .it's the parents responsibility. Resident: I've been going there for about 2 years probably and I've heard language.. . and yeah, all the people do teach you things. Like I've learned a lot of stuff from... Stolar: Thank you. What I'd like to do, I don't mean to cut off the debate, and I won't, but I do want to try and see if we can bring this to closure. If possible we'll open it up if there's any. Todd, would you like to provide some summary comments and then I'll bring it to commission to see if there's a motion that we want to make. Hoffman: Thanks Chair Stolar. Just a little reflection back on the time when the skate park was opened. I think it's something that park and recreation staff as a whole is very proud of. I think the community is very proud of. We had a group of young people that came to the park commission back in '97-98 and they started a conversation about, at that time they were labeled aggressive skate parks or skate parks, and there was quite a bit of opposition and resistance to 16 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 opening such a facility in the community because of the unknown. The fact that people didn't know what these things were, and those kids came back and educated not only the Park and Recreation Commission but the City Council. City Council was hesitant. The community was hesitant. The school was hesitant. The bank across the street was hesitant. The post office was hesitant, and there are issues that we deal with on a daily and weekly basis with especially the school because when you operate an elementary school with a playground directly adjacent to a facility such as the skate park where language is an issue. The playground monitors don't appreciate having to talk to those kids. You have 50 kids out on the playground and you hear those words, that's alarming to those playground monitors. That's alarming to parents that have their kids at that school, so it is an issue and it's something that the community has expressed a concern about. Back when the original $15,000 was invested it was just put out there. The hockey rink was not built. That was intended to be 2 hockey rinks. One on the east and one on the west. The hockey rink was deleted from the park master plan and the skate park was approved. $15,000 in jumps and ramps went out there and then we started immediately with issues about parking across at the access into the fire station so we put up a fence on that side of the facility, on the fire station side. It soon became apparent that fencing the entire enclosure to help monitor trash and access and even behavior issues because when you showed up with an official, either a deputy or a city official, kids would scatter without any fence. Now they're at least, they're somewhat contained so it's a little more easier to carry on a conversation on behavior issues and other things. Second phase of equipment was added. Another $15,000. A third phase of equipment added, $15,000 of equipment was added and supported, so we have seen that support from the Park and Recreation Commission and City Council through the years. The shelter was constructed, and it has turned out to be a very nice park. I think the location is ideal in the center of our city. There's been some talk about let's move it out of the way. Let's move it into more a location that would not be as visible. Professionally I think that's a mistake. I think having that visibility, I think the kids feel very, they feel like they have some importance. This is prime real estate in the downtown of Chanhassen dedicated for a space for that use, and that's a good thing I think for a user group that actually deserves that. The commission that started this said you know, this is one use we don't have. This is a group that falls off of the map of Chanhassen park and recreation because we don't offer them anything. They were very opposed or resistant at that time to charging a fee. We don't charge a fee for, you know we have 24 playgrounds in this city for young kids, for 8 and under. They're valued at, now after this year we'll have a couple million dollars worth of children playgrounds. We don't charge for those. We had a charge at Lake Ann. We eliminated that charge. We could put a monitor at the park, if that's seen as a positive. There was some talk about that at the last go around and there's also some negatives to putting a monitor at the park. But you could put one there without charging a fee. The city could simply say this is an important enough issue where we're going to take money, just like we do for other rec programming or law enforcement and we don't have to. We absorb it as part of the general operating fund.. .18 year olds, young adults there at the park, many people will say, oh it's supervised. I'll drop off my 7 year old. I'll drop off my 6 year old and it's supervised and they'll be taken care of. And that can be an issue, and can an 18 year old take care of all the situations that you have at the skate park? That's potentially a negative from staff's view point as well. What I would suggest we do as a community is respond to the City Council by taking a tiered approach. Talking about what I call a wake up call. Again we've had a significant wake up call in this community. You're hearing all the good things tonight but all of us know that once we step out and open the skate park, there is going to be the things 17 . Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 occurring again and that's why we're here. So we have to have that wake up call. We've had the closure. We've got some new signs Chair if you want to pull out, these signs are up at the park in response to the issues and the concerns of the City Council. They're very bright. Notice, profanity and littering will not be tolerated. Results in closure of the skate park. And again we talked about these concerns tonight. I have concern when we order these signs, is that I said to our administrative, our staff here, we could be closing it every month. We're going to have litter at that park every morning. It's still going to be there. There's still going to be profanity at the park, so is this a realistic expectation? That it will not be tolerated and closed. You know it's another warning but again it's not going to eliminate... Could we use increased involvement from the community? Absolutely. Some people talked about, I've always said, I think the skate park is a tremendous learning and a positive for our community. You know 80-85 percent of the use is positive. 20 percent is negative. If you take a look at those users, that's 22,000 positive user visits a year in our community and 3,000 or 4,000 that turn into some kind of a negative. To close it down to get rid of those 2,000-3,000-4,000 in my belief is not something that the community should be looking at. But we need increased involvement from everyone. The users. I can see the park out my window. Do I want to have to walk there 3 times a day and talk to people? No, I would prefer not to but do I feel a responsibility to do that? Yes I do. Other staff does it on a daily basis. Other staff not even involved with our park department do it on a daily basis, and then obviously our law enforcement, they're participating as well. Second phase, so we open up the skate park. We say hey community, you've got a wake up call. Let's get involved. Let's start a conversation. Continue the conversation about what conduct we want to see at the skate park. Second phase would be to start some sort of a skate park official association so form an association. Have them meet monthly or bi-monthly basis and involve parents and youth. And the third would be to put some kind of paid staff up there and whether. .. pay for a fee or not I think is a separate conversation. And then fourth would be to close it or eliminate the skate park, which I don't think is a positive thing for this community. When I walk over there and talk to folks about conduct or things that they're not following the rules, I always think that we're only doing good. We're only reinforcing what our community values are. When the other 20 or 30 or 40 or 10 or 2 or whatever it is, those kids are standing by the way side. They've been observing the same behavior that I'm observing, or the law enforcement officer or another...observing and when they get walked up to and talked to about that behavior and it's inappropriate, it just confirms to those other kids that this see, this is not appropriate. You know we knew that wasn't appropriate, and so I think that's the real opportunity that we have at the skate park. Not to mention the calories burned, the energy that is consumed over there in physical exercise and the mental health that these kids receive from the skate park, I've said it a number of times. Been quoted in traded magazines, in my belief the skate park is the most highly used, the best return on the investment that we've ever made in this city in a park and recreation facility. Stolar: Thank you. With that, I'd like to bring it back to the commission and ask if a commission member would like to put forth a motion of how we would respond to the City Council's directive. Without objection we have a comment. Resident: ... I look at the signs and I look at the signs. .. when I look at that and I think back when I was 15 and that would have made we want to swear and want to litter. Could it be something instead. I mean even...graffiti away if you can go that far with it. Hey, how about 18 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 keep the park, keep it clean. Your mouth and the trash, you know whatever but something that is a little more creative because these kids are creative. They're out there because they're creative. It's not, they see a notice and it's, I can still think 15... I'm sorry, that would want to make me want to do it, so and I don't know if there's a list of rules over there. I think there is. You know like being a bully...I just think maybe a creative way like that and then I loved the volunteer idea. You get the users of the park in some form, and even if they kind of do it themselves, at least the kids that are here initiate it even and say hey, let's, we're on... property and let's make sure this place is cleaned up or we're here in the morning...let's pick it up. And actually pull in them kind of pulling in their own volunteers, but I'm just looking at that sign that.. .that'd be fun for them. Stolar: I appreciate the comment. Todd, just as a side note. These are signs we printed up already correct? Hoffman: They're posted. Stolar: They're posted out there, and I appreciate your comment and let me just say I will follow up on that as this commission gets into a discussion. Okay. I think you brought up some good points. So we'll get to them, one second. We need to have a motion though for us to respond. Would someone like to venture and we can all work together on it, or should we take Todd's recommendation as a motion? Scharfenberg: What's with the June 14th? Dillon: And we're getting together June 14th. Stolar: Not for this. And that would be beyond the 30 days that they gave us to respond. The City Council in their enactment gave us 30 days to respond. Or actually to submit a plan. Scharfenberg: So Todd, just one more time. Hoffman: Sure. It's really a four tier proposal and the first is to re-open the skate park, recognizing that the community has gone through a wake up period. The fact that there are expectations at the skate park, just like at any other park in that we would look to the community for increased involvement to make sure that the skate park does remain a desirable location. Second would be to, if that fails, to form, to solicit formation of a skate park association with both users and parents to monitor the activities and to then pick this conversation up again and say alright, well the community has spoken. Whether that be this commission or the City Councilor the law enforcement agencies. If we re-open it and there's a response in 3 months, 6 months that it is not working. They are not seeing, that their expectations have not been fulfilled, then we would move to that second step and then the third step would be to consider a paid staff and potentially a fee at the park. And the fourth would be to close the skate park altogether. Stolar: Would someone like to, I'm putting a little bit of order on this. Would someone like to put that forth as a motion? As action for this commission. 19 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Dillon: Yeah, I make a motion that we follow Todd's suggestions in moving forward with the plan to present to the City Council. Murphy: I'll second. Stolar: Okay, moved by Commission Dillon. Seconded by Commissioner Murphy. Discussion. Scharfenberg: If I understand Todd's, you know his four phases, I'd almost like to see number 1 and 2 almost combined. I think from what I've heard I think, skaters and the parents I think do need, we need to take ownership of our parks and I think the kids want to take ownership typically so I would almost like to see that association happen as part of this item to govern themselves and to clean it up. I think that that almost has to happen. Stolar: And again just try to put structure on this. Would Todd, any comments about that? Combining 1 and 2. Both giving this wake up call as well as trying to get some association started. Hoffman: What I'm trying to stress in the first one is that we ask for that voluntarily in the wake up call you know. That people, this is their community. This is their park. They spend some more time, because if you go to the second one where you start an official association, that's a good deal of, that's a commitment that then we have to get involved in as a staff. You're going to have a board of directors with that. It's a big step and so if you want to take that step immediately, we would be willing to do that but just taking that, when I laid this out I tried to make them in order of you know, it gets a little bit harder. A little bit more involved and the skate park's been successful I think for 6 years without it. Have there been issues? Yes, and I think as a community we've gone through, this is the longest closure we've ever seen. I think the biggest wake up call in users in the community have ever gone through, and I would like to actually give that a chance before we venture off in starting a more formal organization because there's pitfalls in that as well. Stolar: Can I maybe, Steve if I can build on what you said. Understanding your concerns Todd. How about if I phrase it that as part of one we also encourage the parents and skaters to form an association because they could do that on their own. We don't have to be involved, but if we don't see change, then we'll actually take active steps on our own to form it. That way, I see parents in the audience here, and you've got the Chanhassen Athletic Association right here who can help you understand how to create one. I'm not throwing this on you Todd, but I mean they've done it right for the same purpose. Recreation for our children. It's something that parents can do. So if we can amend your thoughts just in a statement of this commission, would that be kind of where you were going? Scharfenberg: Yes, exactly. Stolar: Would you guys be okay? So it'd be an encouragement to you as part ofthis wake up call, and then Todd we would still have as level two, that we as a city, or as a commission take active steps to create an association. 20 '4.___ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Terry Campbell: I'm actually the administrator for the CAA and I would be more than happy to help these kids organize as much as they could. I mean I talk to Todd and Jerry frequently. I would be happy to help... Stolar: Thanks. And it's not something we're leaving on your own but I think it's a difference of we're going to hope that based on this discussion and this wake up call you'll take the active role to do that. Any other questions or points? The motion as it stands, it's still the four tiered approach of wake up call, informational, taking ownership through the volunteer activities of the individuals who use the park, parents of individuals who use the park. To keep it open. And then if that fails the next 3 steps. Scharfenberg: The only other thing I'd like to say is I think we need, I think we all make a statement to the council, a unanimous statement that we think that this is a significant asset for our community and we do not want to see it closed. Stolar: Would the movers or the amendment, ofthe motion and second approve adding that statement of purpose? Dillon: I agree with that. We need to, I think it needs to stay open. Stolar: Seeing no other discussion, I'd like to take a vote on this then. Dillon moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council adopt a four tier proposal for the skate park, noting that the commission sees the skate park as a significant asset for the community and does not want to see it closed. 1. Re-open the skate park, recognizing that the community has gone through a wake up period. There are expectations at the skate park, just like at any other park in that the city would look to the community for increased involvement to make sure that the skate park does remain a desirable location. . 2. If that fails, to solicit formation of a skate park association with both users and parents to monitor the activities of the skate park. 3. If the skate park association and the city is seeing that their expectations have not been fulfilled then consider a paid staff and potentially a fee at the park. 4. If all of the above items fail, close the skate park altogether. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to O. Stolar: What I'd like to do is take a short recess for 2 minutes, because I'm losing my voice here and I need to get some water, but I also want to take a quick moment to thank all of you in the audience. Thank you very much. 21 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 PUBLIC NOTICE; DAVE HUFFMAN MEMORIAL 5K RUN ROUTE CHANGE. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Stolar. The Park and Rec Commission is familiar with this route, proposed route. We did take a look at that at the April meeting. The proposed route is in place because of the construction of the water treatment facility over by the pedestrian bridge in Chanhassen. That construction of that new facility within the city is forcing the race to be moved because the pedestrian bridge will not be open to have a safe crossover over Highway 5. This route in particular was reviewed and is being proposed because we can use City Center Park, our new park and plaza area. It makes sense for the race committee to start and finish at the same location. We can eliminate the busing and certain make it flow a little bit better for the race itself. Notification was sent out to the adjacent property owners, whether it be businesses or residential around the whole route itself. And that went out I believe the 16th of May. A postcard was sent that had a map. The map that you see up on your screens. That map was included on that and also then the brief explanation that's included within the staff report was also on the back side then of that postcard. That was sent out. The only really formal communication that I did receive was an e-mail that was sent from someone along the race course that was in favor of it. He saw no problems with it. It's important for the commission to remember this proposed route, we are not closing are roads. Just basically asking the residents along the proposed route to be careful during that time. By the time it really hits the neighborhoods it will be pretty spread out for that. There won't be a real high cluster of the pack so to speak going through at one time, through the neighborhood so when it's all said and done it will be less than an hour going through the neighborhoods. Stolar: Thank you. Do we have anybody in the audience who wishes to comment on this? Any commission members? Alright, do we have a motion? Oh do you want to comment? Murphy: I like that route. Stolar: Oh okay. There you have it. Alright, do we have a motion to accept staff's recommendation for the change in the Dave Huffman Memorial 5K RunIWalk route. Scharfenberg: So moved. Murphy: Second. Stolar: Alright. Well we have a tie here on the second. Moved by Steve and seconded by Ann and Jack. Scharfenberg moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend approval of the route change for the Dave Huffman Memorial 5K Run as depicted on the attached map. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to O. 22 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 CHANHASSEN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION PROPOSAL TO DONATE AND INSTALL SCOREBOARDS AND AMENDED PROPOSAL FROM CHANHASSEN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION CONCERNING ADVERTISING SIGNAGE. Todd Neils: My name is Todd Neils. I'm the Vice President of the Little League, Chanhassen Athletic Association. I live at, on Saddlebrook Curve. I guess I'm glad item 3 was addressed because that gave the opportunity for the tumbleweeds to roll out of here, as our skateboarding friends did as well. And now I'm all alone. I'd also like to thank Todd Hoffman for what I think he is doing is setting me up after the youth of the community each time I address you. As I thought about this presentation and the way it shows up on the agenda, what we're going to find as we discuss it over the course of the next hopefully not several hours, is that they're going to, both issues are probably intertwined in a way. The previous presentation that I made to the park and rec commission was in direct relation to signage in hopes that we could add capital improvements to our city parks through the purchase of scoreboards, lighting standards and dugouts that will more fully round the experience. I'd like to once again go on record as saying thank you to Todd Hoffman for assisting me in this public forum, or at least help me get through this public forum. And would like to start with my presentation. In reiterating a couple of the points that I made in February of this year about the growth of our program. I'll first say, read the mission statement of the Chanhassen Athletic Association as a whole. The association believes in an environment where fun, learning fundamentals and sportsmanship take precedence over winning. Keeping with all, an all play attitude, our goal is every player entering our program enjoys their sporting experience, taking with them the knowledge that teamwork and the effort they put forth is directed proportionate to how they perform in sports and life. Some of the highlights again from the February 22nd meeting. In 2002 the Chanhassen Athletic Association applied and received official Little League sponsorship and charter. The organization has offered the necessary standardized rules and operations to grow a strong community program for years to come. In 1990 there were 250 children that participated. 2001 that number grew to 450. 2002, when the charter was approved, 525. Since that time we've seen 46% growth over the last 2 years and our expectation is that we'll have over 1,200 by 2007. We have since extended our borders to include Shakopee, which will also accelerate the growth even faster. Again Chanhassen is the 143rd fastest growing community in the United States as of 2000. Compared with our neighbors we do have 21 % of our population under the age of 10 with the current population of 23,341 gotten off the Chanhassen web site today. That equates to approximately 4,900 children that potentially could go through our program in some capacity over the next several years. The Chanhassen Little League wants to provide quality long lasting experience for our youth that they will remember for years to come and through partnership with the City of Chanhassen and park and rec we hope to achieve that. Again, as I said, while Chairman Stolar you did mention that this is new business, both issues are intertwined so if you allow me some latitude I'd like to talk about both if you don't mind in concert. Stolar: Absolutely. Todd Neils: First I'd like to address the signage proposal, which really would fall into the old business and discuss that to get into signage because I think one begets the other. In order to provide the appropriate capital improvements we need the signage issue approved by the park and rec, by the City Council. And ultimately embraced by the community leaders or business 23 '',I Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 leaders in this community willing to put their dollars to work supporting our program. The Chanhassen Little League has developed an aggressive fund raising mission that allows for capital improvements. This funding raising will be supplied by local businesses, their sponsorship through uniform, field and scoreboard signage. With the support of the Park and Rec Commission we can make those improvements, and at this time I would like to briefly go over the proposal which I believe you've all received in your packets. And I'm sure read with great interest. Hoffman: So we're talking about item 5 now right? Stolar: Yeah, and I think if commission members don't have any objection we'll talk about these intertwined. Okay, great. Todd Neils: Thank you very much. The original proposal was submitted to staff somewhere about April 15th. Approximately. I don't remember the precise date. At which time staff brought it to the city attorney who made some adjustments to the proposal but that while on the surface are acceptable in nature because they were written by us, there are a few points I'd like to address about the proposal itself and really get the feedback of the commission and staff about the original proposal that was made. If you don't mind. I don't know if you'll be able to see this. What I'll do is I'll read, okay. Essentially, yeah. Essentially Part I noted that signage will be placed on scoreboards for additional revenue generation. That was taken out of the proposal change by the city attorney. It's inconsistent with the second point which says, additionally the city will receive $400 in payment for all signage, scoreboards and $400 in payment for every, and every subsequent year, which would say to me that we really should add that back in. Stolar: Do we know why that was taken out? Hoffman: I don't recall the specific reason, no... Todd Neils: Okay. Secondly, I don't mean to be a terrible wet blanket here. If we jumped down to point 10. The annual, oh thank you Todd. The contract expires on the current proposal on an annual basis which really limits us in our ability to sell multi year signage to the businesses, which is I think a selling point where we can give price breaks and so on and so forth. And with this year essentially in the books, since we've started our season and don't have the opportunity, we originally had requested a December 31,2008 first time renewal. What we request from the commission at this point to change the language to read, rather than being on an annual basis, again to give us the opportunity to sell multi year fund raising that we would have a December 31,2007 and then a bi-annual renewal process. That's the second point. The third point is probably our greatest concern and I think I did have at least a brief e-mail exchange with Todd Hoffman about this. Point 12 states all money collected shall be appropriated for capital improvements to city fields. These improvements may include construction of scoreboards, dugouts and additional lighting standards. Originally it was written, these improvements will include construction of scoreboards, dugouts and additional lighting standards. I guess what we're requesting is that there is further clarification of what may include because it is not necessarily in our charter through this donation process or this granting process to fund capital improvements that may otherwise be handled by the park and rec staff and employees. And 24 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 secondarily on point 11, which I guess at this point is point 12, the CAA further requests input as to most favorable sites for those capital improvements. That has been taken out completely from point 12. Again I've thrown a lot out there and ask you at the same time and would like to hear a little bit of feedback, particularly from staff as to clarification of what may be instead of will. Stolar: Let me, if you don't mind can we talk about it. Todd Neils: Without question. Stolar: What I'd like to do is address your points first and then also ask if there are any points of the commissioners after that, so Todd first question for you. There were, to my knowledge 3 main, 4 main points. One being the elimination of the scoreboards being a place for signage on point 1. That one you said, that's not really an issue. Will be fine. Okay. The second being the expiration, December 31, 2007 and then biannual. Hoffman: .. .2008 and there was? Todd Neils: It says, this contract expires on December 31, 2008 and is renewable upon consent by each party, and what we would ask is that it expires on 2007 and then at that time is renewable upon consent by each party. Hoffman: It's understandable you're going to want to sell these things on a multi year level. Item 12, the reason to say may instead of will is if they, if the city is, if the payments add up to $3,000, we may not be able to do any of those so the wording will, the fact that these improvements may, they may not occur. We don't want to imply that simply by signing this proposal that these improvements. . . Stolar: The goal being that these monies will be applied towards these things if they can fund them, and that these monies won't be applied to something totally different. Todd Neils: Yes, absolutely. Stolar: So can we, I assume you guys will be able to work with the appropriate attorney to clarify that. The intention sounds the same. That we collect this money and we apply it towards this. If we collect enough money to do this, we'll do this. If we don't, the city isn't kicking in the difference. Todd Neils: Right. I would agree with that. I would also however, as you'll also find in your packet a letter that was written to me from Todd Hoffman on May 25th that the provision of dugouts, again this is the letter I referred to. It is in the packet. It addresses, it's your initial address, addressing after discussions about advertising signage, scoreboards, dugouts and ballfield lighting. While the Chanhassen Athletic Association Little League is more than happy to assist in the funding of many of these capital improvements, we don't want to be the sole responsibility or have them be the sole responsibility of the Chanhassen Athletic Association. In points 3 and 4, specifically under dugouts, the provision of dugouts primarily to protect players from the elements is a long term goal of the department. In point 4 we maintain the position thatm 25 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 eventually many of the athletic fields within the city will be lit or lighted. While we have no expectation that we're going to throw this in the city's lap or staff's lap under their budget, what we would request is that a continued dialogue and working with the park and rec commission and staff to work in concert to make these capital improvements rather than making it the sole responsibility of the Chanhassen Athletic Association. Stolar: And I think that's where the issue of will becomes a question so it's more a wording of this money is dedicated to that function. If this commission and the City Council so choose to take this money and make it happen through whatever capital improvement programs, or whatever money that is available from this, that's still going to end up being our's no matter what, right? So I think it's just a wording issue. We're still all saying the same thing. They want this money dedicated to those purposes. But we can't commit that we're going to build those. Hoffman: Yeah, we won't commit we're going to build those and we won't commit that we're going to participate in those and so I think there's a philosophical difference on item number 12. The City Council never wants to accept donations based on the premise that those are going to further inspire additional investment in those same particular items. Because the City Council, and I believe this commission feels strongly that if you feel those are a top priority you would be funding them even without contributions. And so what typically happens is youth associations come to the city. They're very inspired to see improvements in the specific things that they value in their community, and I've had this conversation with Mr. Neils and if they want to raise $100,000 and light ballfields at Lake Ann, that's great. But the conversation with this commission and the City Council about those similar type of improvements is something that you take on on an annual basis. Each June and July you have an opportunity to say as a commission we want to build ballfield lights. You haven't done that. You have the opportunity to say we want to build dugouts. You haven't done that. There's other priorities. We have ballfields. They're sufficient. Could they be improved? Absolutely. Have you found other higher priorities? Yes, this community has. So item 12 can be worded to say that this money collected shall be used for these improvements if sufficient dollars are collected, and I have no problem that the CAA would participate in that conversation. But they're certainly not going to mandate what that money would be used for. Again that has to be clear. Simply because the CAA dedicates money to this community, under this kind of arrangement it's not counting for a specific thing. It's just coming for a, it's not like Todd's not here today saying we have $100,000. We want to put ballfield lights at Lake Ann. They're proposing a program that may raise money and could possibly fund these type of improvements. So we're not locking ourselves in to what those improvements are. That's a different conversation. Two years from now if there was $20,000 in the bank, then we have that conversation and say okay, what should we invest that in. Stolar: And to make sure I understand, but are you saying it is within the purview of this agreement that these monies that they raise, which may never be used for anything, right? Because if it's not sufficient and we don't decide to put it in the capital improvement, then we just sit there. But the key, my understanding or my concern would be, we also don't want this money being taken to be used for something totally disassociated with things of the CAA's interest. Like the general fund for streets. 26 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: Correct. Stolar: Okay. And that's kind of the objective I want to make sure is that we understand that this is money to go to improvements in the ballfield like described here but it isn't sufficient to guarantee those improvements will happen. Hoffman: Correct. Stolar: Okay. Dillon: I'm a little confused on money collected you know in item 12 and then in item number 2, you know money paid. Hoffman: The money we collect through the agreement is a payment that they're making based on a sign. They're selling the advertising signage. For every sign that they sell we collected, they pay us that $200 per sign. Todd Neils: And it essentially goes into I guess an escrow account which will in the future pay for capital improvements to the fields. Dillon: Okay. So how much will the sign be sold for? Todd Neils: I don't think we've determined that. I think we're confident based on the numbers that we've given you that we will be able to sell a sign, which will at the very least make the appropriate payment of $200 in addition to any costs to produce the sign. Dillon: So Todd there's 4 fields that are identified. About how many signs at each field? Todd Neils: Our expectation is that if we are allowed to put signage up, we will sell approximately 104 signs. Not including scoreboards. Dillon: I noticed in one of the previous signage correspondence pieces in here there was, now regarding item number 4 on the current proposal it says only signage excluding alcohol, tobacco and sexually oriented businesses is allowed. The other I was thinking has no political or religious stuff too. Is that going to be a part of this? I don't see the language in here. Is that specifically not there? Is it an over sight? Hoffman: Item 4 has been modified. Only commercial signage, excluding alcohol, tobacco, and sexually oriented businesses allowed. Stolar: So does that mean religious signage is allowed? Dillon: And political? 27 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: No. This is the way the, only commercial signage. So this is the way it has to be worded. Based on the new wording. Dillon: Oh, okay. I get it. Commercial. Stolar: And I saw that same thing Kevin. There was a previous memo from 2000 that specifically said political and religious signage will not be allowed. Hoffman: That's not defensible in a public organization. Stolar: It isn't? Okay. Gotch ya. Dillon: They'll try to sneak that in there in an election year. Stolar: You missed the boat. There was a lot of money spent last election year. Hoffman: Political signs are not commercial signs. Scharfenberg: Todd in regards to the scoreboards, do you have a different proposal regarding that? Todd Neils: Well I do. Scoreboards are a difficult thing. The Chanhassen Athletic Association Little League is at this time prepared to, in the letter to Todd Hoffman, the Chanhassen Athletic Association Little League was prepared to donate 6 scoreboards to the city. After stepping back a little bit and taking a look at it, the Little League is now prepared to donate 3 scoreboards to strategically placed parks within the community, that being Bandimere, one at Lake Ann and potentially one at Bluff Creek. Scharfenberg: And that would be again clarifying are you guys building the sign and installing it? Todd Neils: We actually will be purchasing these signs from a reputable sign manufacturer called Sportable Signage. I don't have a lot of specs. There aren't a lot of specs available. We decided to go with a manual type scoreboard because we felt that the long term issues with electronic scoreboards in addition to hiring electricians and the additional labor involved in that type of operation. Additionally you have multiple communities that are using these fields. The hand off of the, whether it be wireless, coding, etc, etc, would be cumbersome at best. And as we just heard from our skate park friends, much more susceptible to damage at higher costs through vandalism. The Sportable, and again I have very little information unfortunately as it relates to this. I can redo some of their literature/propaganda if you like. I also have packets that outline what the signage, or what the scoreboards will look like. Scharfenberg: So will this be your number one priority in terms of the initial money that you raise would be the scoreboards? 28 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Todd Neils: Yes. Initially yes. The number one priority would be scoreboards. Obviously as I stated with the tremendous growth aspect we see in the Chanhassen Athletic Association Little League, lighting will become a greater and greater factor as the years go on because our hope and desire, if we're unable to get more fields in the community is to run multiple game nights. Unfortunately you run into issues with that as well because you have parents with younger kids who are II, 12, maybe 13 years old who have homework and bedtimes, unlike commission and staff members. Yes, initially our expectation is to start small I guess as it were by donating some scoreboards and then populating additional parks with money we raise with the expectation that in, potentially in the next year based on the amount of money we raise, putting in a dugout. I couldn't help be motivated by this. By coaching fall baseball and going to, I can't for the life of me rernember the name of the park but it's on 101. Bennett Park, and seeing really the way the community is taken in with the central concession stand. With signage. With dugouts. The kids really feel they're major league baseball players, whether it be for 2 hours, and that's the whole rounded experience that we strive for. That's the reason that we want to have this signage approved. That's the reason that we feel that it's important to add some of these amenities and capital improvements to these park so the kids can go away with the experience that I played in a Little League, I did it as a child in Glen Lake and in Minnetonka and I think I'd love to have my son grow up in the same way. Scharfenberg: Have you guys, Todd have you looked at alternatives to dugouts. I know in talking to Ann V olas, you know part of the issue I think is you know playing in the summer and it's you know July and you're out at Bluff Creek where there's no shade, it's more of a safety issue and since we've been getting our magazine and I've been kind of paging through that, they have protective devices on parks. You know nice tarping and things like that. Have you guys looked into any of that stuff as opposed to going and spending the money on dugouts, something more along those lines. Todd Neils: You know I strolled through the tournament they had last year and sawall the makeshift lean to's with blue tarps and yellow tarps and rope and so on and so forth that they erected over the dugouts. And yes, we did actually discuss that as a possibility. I think a more permanent structure adds a greater allure and becomes much more, I wouldn't say stable necessarily but I would say more in concrete, pardon the pun. Longer lasting. Less maintenance and so on and so forth. The tarping that we discussed, while on it's surface would be very nice to shade frorn sun and foul balls and so on and so forth, but I think a longer lasting approach is more appropriate for what we're trying to achieve. Stolar: So trying to separate these out and for the scoreboards we don't have an official recommendation from staff because there's still some questions to work out. Or is there? Hoffman: We don't have yet. We still haven't been presented with sufficient information to take this to the City Council. I can't make a recommendation on something that I don't know what it is. Stolar: Within appropriate, and you're getting that information as we're going along. 29 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Todd Neils: Well I have as much information as provided in terms of what the materials will be made out. What the installation process will be. Beyond that there isn't a tremendous amount of information available that's offered by Sportable Scoreboards. I can give you a basic idea by reading. Scoreboards are approximately 8 by 4. Have a 9 inch yellow fluorescent numbers, which are permanently attached and visible over 300 feet. There's a movable window number that slide in and out of view with a simple push of a finger, and it's designed to mount on a 4 by 4 post. Beyond that in all honesty there isn't any information additionally I can add. Or offer to staff to entice them to approve this. I honestly don't know precisely what I could. Stolar: I think one of the things we'll probably need is clarification of who's installing. Or at least I would need. Who's installing? What do we do with these during the off season? I mean those are some of the things I would wonder about. Hoffman: What the construction material is. Is it wood? Is it. Todd Neils: It's metal. Hoffman: Is it metal? Most anything you buy there should be a spec sheet available and. We can't propose as a commission or as a staff to the City Council that we accept a donation that we don't know what it is. And to turn this thing off to say we can't provide that is just, I don't understand it. Stolar: So I guess let me suggest we table the scoreboard situation for one second, okay? Because that we need to talk a little bit more about. Can we continue, if there are any questions on the proposal under old business, and eventually I'll clarify what we're going to vote on but there were specifics there. We had a couple of amendments. Todd you've commented on all of them that the only thing we need to do is clarify the wording right now to relay the intent that the monies given by the CAA to the signage be focused on these types of investments and capital improvement but also be clear that it doesn't mean necessarily that those are going to be approved. Hoffman: Correct. Now I have wording proposed for number 12. I think number 1 and 10 can be accepted as amended by Mr. Neils. Number 12, I would propose that we say all money collected shall be appropriated for capital improvements to city ballfields, including construction of scoreboards, dugouts and additional lighting. Improvements will be initiated only when sufficient funds have been collected and with input from the CAA. Todd Neils: That's acceptable at this point. Stolar: Any questions from commission members? Sounds good. Okay. Any other questions from, because I think what we ought to do is we ought, since 5's pretty well laid out. We ought to just finish that up. Vote on that and then go back to the scoreboards. Okay. Any other questions on the proposal, and I know Kevin you had asked the question about the wording. We got that clarified. Any other questions that you have Kevin? Dillon: Not at this time. 30 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Stolar: Ann? Atkins: These signs will go on fields 1, 2 and 3 at Lake Ann, correct? Todd Neils: I think it also states Bandimere. Hoffman: Number 1 at Bandimere. Atkins: So probably 25 signs on each? Todd Neils: Approximately. Atkins: Okay. Stolar: Alright, I just had one quick thought as I was reading this. It talks about using them April through October. If done right is there any desire or possibility to use them in the skate rinks in the winter for extra fees? Hoffman: I don't have a desire to see that. I don't know if Todd does. Todd Neils: I would say that based on the material and the temperature, it's. Stolar: It'd be problematic. Todd Neils: Well if you hang them on the rinks, at least on the boards, you're going to have, they're going to be torn up pretty quickly. Terry Campbell: I was just going to say.. . minor league ballpark or any, to many ballparks. My son travels the river valley this last year and you go down to these nice little home town ballparks and they're quaint and they have this nice, nicely painted outdoor signs on the outfield. It's not like they're any kind of tacky, obnoxious. They have to be certain specs or whatever you want to say, but they're not obnoxious. They're.. . makes a more homey feel and it's not just a fence. You know it has a little more hometown baseball feel. Stolar: I mean my kids play at Bennett Park so yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Terry Campbell: That's a great little ballpark. Hoffman: Something to remember. Bennett is a private facility and I understand exactly what we're seeing here, that these signs are not going to create the same small hometown feel that you would get at a Chaska Cubs Auditorium or stadium. Stolar: No, but the end vision, though we may never achieve it, is to try and create more of the, what I'll call the minor league ballpark atmosphere. If you get to the end state. If we get sufficient funding to get the instate of the dugouts and those sort of things so yeah, it's a nice 31 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 vision to work off of. We know it's going to be a challenge. And it may never occur but this is a way to start funding that vision and I personally am in favor of that. To at least start and we'll see where it goes. We have 2 years to see and after 2 years we say, not working. We can make choices then. Dillon: I just you know, I mean we start now. It's 2 years I guess but you start down this slippery slope of it's advertising everywhere, and I'm in the marketing business and I advertise for a living. I know. And I do this, but you know it's, there's something to be said about, you know I grew up in a small town in upstate New York and we didn't have signs and there's something to be said just for green space sometimes too. Not a constant assault on the senses of people trying to sell you something. And like I said, I try to sell people stuff all the time but there's so, I think there is also an aesthetic facet in keeping it signless too. And you know if it was a huge amount of money that we're talking about, you know that could really do a whole bunch of stuff, I mean you know that's one thing but it's kind of small potatoes too. I mean benefit, financial benefit, it doesn't seem to be that great for what we are just giving up in aesthetics. Now I'm not exactly paving paradise, putting a parking lot but it's clean. It's green. And it's the way it's been. Hoffman: The first proposal we did not accept based on the fact that there was not sufficient revenue potential directly to the city. Here they're talking about $20,000 a year potentially at the very best, and so yes, it's not. You know our budget, our capital budget of $250,000 or there abouts so you're talking about less than 10% ofthat. Stolar: Initially. And if you add in the scoreboards, and see I looked at it the opposite way. I said that's 10% we didn't have. Todd Neils: It's not only 10% but in the long run if it's able to fund 10 scoreboards that the commission is not pressed to put in by the community, if it is able to fund dugouts, if it is able to fund additional lighting, which is an important component, and yes I can appreciate the want and desire for green space but it is still a baseball field. And we have a large number of parks in this community. In a 2 year span we're going to give, if all signage and all scoreboard signage is approved, we're going to give approximately 10% of the annual budget to the park and rec for these capital improvements, and I would consider that, I would consider that a large donation or grant. Stolar: And I guess to Kevin's point though, there is a question of at some point we have to make sure we don't let a genie out of the bottle and just let it go hog wild. I don't know if it's appropriate at this point but my inclination is that there are certain key fields that are you know the fields to walk. To put this on and then there are others that are not necessarily. I don't know if that's something we want to talk about now or at a subsequent meeting. Hoffman: .. .at Bluff Creek may not be appropriate to fill it up with signage. Todd Neils: And that's one reason we didn't propose. Hoffman: You were talking about 4 of them. 32 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Stolar: That doesn't solve the issue that you brought up Kevin but I do think that we do need to make sure that there are identified fields for which this atmosphere we're trying to create makes sense. And there are those that maybe have multi-use. I'm thinking for example neighborhood parks. Lots of neighborhoods. We probably just don't want to do this in there. Scharfenberg: Unless you're going to put up cyclone fencing around to put it up. I mean you're incurring additional costs to do that. Stolar: What I'm saying like don't put it in the backstop of a neighborhood park only. Scharfenberg: Yeah. Stolar: Right, we don't want to do that. You aren't creating an atmosphere of a fence in ballfields. Todd Neils: There again is the safety issue as well. If you put it on the backstop, the ball can't be seen as well coming in from the outfield and so on and so forth. Scharfenberg: Yeah, I think the parks we're talking about are Lake Ann and Bandimere right now, unless another complex is built in the next few years. Those are the fields we're talking about. Stolar: Okay. Do we have a motion, given the amendments and changes? Or I'm sorry, are there any other questions? Do I have a motion on item 5, amended proposal from CAA concerning the advertisement signage to accept the amended proposal with the updates that Todd Neils and Todd Hoffman presented. Scharfenberg: I move to accept the amended proposal for, concerning advertising signage. Stolar: Moved by Commissioner Scharfenberg. Do I have a second? Murphy: Second. Stolar: Seconded by Commissioner Murphy. Any further discussion? Scharfenberg moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council approve the amended agreement between the City of Chanhassen and the Chanhassen Athletic Association governing the provision of dedicated advertising signage. All voted in favor, except Dillon and Atkins who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 2. Stolar: We have Commissioner Scharfenberg and Murphy, Stolar and Spizale in favor and Commissioners Atkins and Dillon opposed. Motion carries 4 to 2. Okay? Which again, given the nature of the discussion on this I assume that we will continue our dialogues as this goes along to try and balance this vision with some of the desires expressed by our commission 33 'L Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 members. Alright, now going back to item 4. It seems to me we don't have material in front of us to make a motion, or direction from staff. Commissioners, are there any, we can make one from the floor based on the information. Hoffman: If you're comfortable you certainly can. Stolar: Do we have, is there an imperative to act today on this? Todd Neils: Well our hopes and desires were to have these approved so that we could present to City Council and show that the Chanhassen Athletic Association Little League is working for the youth of the community, and have them available and ready and up by our season to determine which way by the end of June. I don't anticipate if we table this until June that it will get to City Council until July, and therefore our vision of getting it in the primary locations that we discussed would not be realized. Stolar: Okay, there are a couple of things on that process. One, we do have a June 14th meeting, but that still probably would be very tight I would assume. Todd Neils: I think June 13th is City Council. Stolar: Second, in all reality it doesn't, Todd, it doesn't have to be an official motion from this group to go to City Council, correct? Staff can present it. Hoffman: I won't present it. Stolar: You won't? Hoffman: No. If you want to, you certainly can. I won't with the information that I have. Stolar: No, no, I'm sorry. If you work the deals out and we don't get a chance to meet and you get it sufficient to your comfort level between now and June 13th. Hoffman: ...maintenance staff needs to look at them. Once they're donated they're our's to maintain and own into the future. We need to know if they're you know maintenance free. That's what our desire. I don't know that. I don't know the materials they're made out of. This is just an artist rendering. This is not a proposal of what we're buying or what we're accepting. Stolar: Right. Is there a way to get a list of those questions or has that already been done? Of the specifics we would need. We could get Todd, so that we can get those answered. Hoffman: Oh I requested those. He said he would bring them to the meeting. Stolar: Alright. Todd Neils: The e-mail I received was vague in nature and did not necessarily request placement. We did as a matter offer to install. There will be no cutting down of trees. They will 34 ,J ~ Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 be put on the outfield of 3 fields in the community, specifically again Lake Ann, City Center, or on the side and have repeatedly stated that we would be willing to take any recommendation the staff has as to where the placement of those signs. I guess that's all I have to say on that matter. Scharfenberg: Todd so you said Lake Ann, City Center and where was the third one? Todd Neils: Bandimere. Hoffman: Which fields there are you proposing? Todd Neils: Probably initially Lake Ann 1 or 2, since 2 has the mound. I probably would suggest that as the most desirable location. Bandimere 1 because one of the fields that we use most frequently. Because City Center and Bluff Creek, the rec center do not have fences, I would be more inclined to request guidance from staff as to the appropriate place for safety issues for the kids as to where to place those signs, or scoreboards rather. Scharfenberg: I guess why the shot gun approach to the fields. Why not say we're going to, we'd like to do Lake Ann first? We'll do 3 fields at Lake Ann this year. We'll do 3. We'll do the 3 fields at Bandimere. Todd Neils: There's 3, there's 1 that we use essentially. The shot gun approach really is because we want to get, for lack of a better term, biggest bang for the buck. Again pardon the pun. The reason we want to use or utilize all 3 of those locations is because it reaches the broadest number of membership in the Chanhassen Athletic Association Little League. We have ages 5 through 8 that participate at City Center. We have ages 9 through 12 that participate at Lake Ann. We have ages 5 through 8 and sometimes 9 and 10 year olds that also use the Chan Rec Center. So by using the shot gun approach we have the broadest umbrella cast over the city to show our members that we are working for them. Stolar: Any thoughts on actions? Spizale: I don't think Todd is comfortable, or staff is comfortable with what you're proposing. Hoffman: I'm comfortable completely with the notion. No problem accepting it... Spizale: But you don't have enough information. Hoffman: If Mr. Neils wants to go to the City Council, when there's next meeting? Oh, it just was last night. On the 13th and make a proposal and they want to accept it with the information we have today, but we've been around long enough. The council is, not only this council but previous councils, they want to know when they're getting something, what's the long term impact on maintenance. What does it look like? How are citizens going to respond to it? And so I think what I asked, I don't recall specifically but some spec sheets. Material. You know what's it made out of. Product catalogs. Just something simple so we know, so I understand, so you would understand what this sign is. Certainly I'm not trying to be an obstructionist. Just reasonable, having some reasonable expectations of what we're accepting as a donation. 35 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Dillon: I think with again, referring back to the skate park issue, and my greatest concern is that as we continue to go down this path and vision, that my greatest concern is that there are going to be issues after hours with the scoreboards once they're put up. I think that for long term maintenance purposes, because they're quite easy to take down and put up, they're very light weight. We would almost recommend and be willing to take them down and store them on an annual basis. Stolar: I think all of this is kind of what we needed to put together kind of like with the other, the signage. Kind of a list of here's what they are. Here's what we'll do. Those sort of things. Unless the commission members have a desire to make a motion, there really isn't any action for us to take. What I do have a question is, do we want to take a pulse for conceptually the idea, just like what Todd said, that we are looking to work with the CAA to work the scoreboard out once we know all the details. I don't know if we want to. Dillon: Conceptually, yeah. I mean I think scoreboards are, you know the scope. Stolar: So Todd, you know I know that doesn't solve the question today for either Todd, and I don't know what will. I mean I have some ideas of what we can do, which is empower Todd that if he's sufficiently comfortable with the agreement that we would support his judgment on this. That's one thing we can do. Don't know if you want us to do that, but it would seem to me that that could expedite the situation. I am, I personally am a little bit concerned along the comments you made Steve, of putting a bunch of these out there when we haven't done them yet. And it would seem to me, especially we talked earlier about the green space. I don't mind Bandimere and Lake Ann but I'm not sure I want to venture beyond that right now. Just as a personal opinion, until we understand more about where this is going. So I think that's all we can do at this point is provide input to you Todd. And Todd. Both of you. Any other points? Dillon: And if you're going to get back to us with just a more buttoned up plan, I think you'd probably find a fair amount of support. Todd Neils: What is your expectation of time lines on that? Are we looking at a June meeting? Scharfenberg: I think so. I mean if you corne to Todd, you guys come back to us with, as staff indicated, Todd Hoffman indicated, these are. Here's the catalog. Here's what it is. These are the 3 fields that we want to put them on. And you talk with staff ahead of time and they say yes or we need, can you get 1,2 or 3 for us. I think we'd be willing to act on this. Ijust think your expectations at this point that this is going to, they're going to get built and they're going to be ready for the end of this season, it's just not going to happen. I know you'd love to have that done. Ijust don't think it's going to happen this year. Hoffman: We need, I need about 2 weeks to prepare a report for the council and run it through the appropriate channels so if I have something from Todd in a week, that you want me to write a staff report to the council, I'll be certainly willing to do that. 36 ,-., Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Stolar: Are people comfortable with that? I mean as a citizen, Todd can go right now to the City Council. He doesn't need any of us, right? Hoffman: Correct. Stolar: As a citizen, but obviously we want to try and do this together as a group. But we can't officially take any action unless we do it today, but if we let Todd write a report based on his comfort level, I think that's where I was going. Is that I'm comfortable with Todd, your judgment on this. It's not an official approval or recommendation from this commission, but I think we've talked about it enough that you understand our views on it. Hoffman: We changed from 6 to 3 tonight and we just need a defined proposal. Stolar: And I think if you get that and you want to present staff's recommendation, if you choose to go to the City Council for June 13th, that's fine. I would just ask that it be known that we haven't seen it officially, but I also think we could look at it at our June 14th meeting. I think we have one, right? June 14th. Hoffman: Yes. Stolar: We're going to have a special meeting on June 14th. For another topic, right? Hoffman: Obviously we can go to the council if they have your support. Mr. Neils will have a better chance of getting it passed. Without your recommendation council may say, we don't want to look at it until the park commission does. They may approve it. Dillon: Any, for us to give our official, do we have to convene like this to do that? I mean can we circulate your document and we get back to you or how does that? Stolar: It has to be a public meeting notice, right? Hoffman: Not a big deal. Stolar: So if you guys work on the details and just take the input from one commission member, I'd prefer just Bandimere and Lake Ann. I don't know if anybody else has input they would like to give. Dillon; Those two parks are the likely candidates I think for try-outs. Hoffman: So Lake Ann 2, Bandimere 1 and Bluff Creek, which field Todd? Todd Neils: It wouldn't be Bluff Creek at this point. It would probably be Lake Ann 1 and 2 and Bandimere I. I appreciate your point of view and I think that you know, if we're going to make that well rounded Little League experience, then the ones, you know if you want that old time feel with the signage, you might as well put your scoreboards there as well. I guess I'm a 37 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 bit confused as to, is my next step to work with Todd Hoffman about the specs under the base understanding that the commission is comfortable with whatever he proposes to City Council? Stolar: Yes, generally speaking. Without knowing the specifics. The commission, well let me rephrase this. The commission is understanding that we've got to go through that step at the very least to get moving forward and that we are giving our input to Todd for what we want to see for this. Todd Neils: I guess I would see that as a roadblock in that if Todd's expectation is that you haven't voted on it as a commission, while I'm more than willing to go down that road and discuss it with him, my concern is I'd be wasting their time. Because the, my expectation going in would be, they're going to DK it. Kick it back saying commission hasn't approved this. Stolar: They can do that even if we approve it. Todd Neils: Yeah, I see your point. Okay. Stolar: I mean the only thing we could do is we could do a formal motion saying we are in favor of scoreboards at those three fields under the appropriate designations and recommendations of the park and rec's department. I don't know if that would make a difference. That that's that much different than what we've just said. But if that would help. Todd, do you think? Hoffman: As long as I know the construction material, the operation, how they're going to be installed. The things I asked for that I thought would be presented this evening. Stolar: And how they would be stored. If at all. Hoffman: Yeah, I would hope that they would be permanent. I mean a significant permanent, to stay there. Not to be stored. We run into issues with storage. Where are they going to be stored? Many times associations say we're going to store them but we ended up storing most of the things so. Stolar: But if it's easier for maintenance not to store them. So I guess, I don't think this is a roadblock. I think you have an intent here to try and work something out. If there are objections to that though please state them now. If you don't agree with that. I'm just trying to bring closure. But I mean that's okay, state the objection as part of the closure. Making sure that we understand. Murphy: I'm just confused what the roadblock is. We're waiting for some information from you, right? So if we get that, we can move forward. Todd Neils: I guess it's not a roadblock per se. It's just a concern. And I take Chairman Stolar's point that they can kick back anything, even if you do recommend. I'll go on from there. 38 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Murphy: But we can't, until we, we don't have the information that we were looking for tonight so. Stolar: Can I just do a quick polling, which is do we as a commission in general support the idea of scoreboards being tried on a limited basis on the Lake Ann fields 1 and 2, Bandimere 1 if they meet the criteria needed by the park's and rec staff for accepting scoreboard donation? Scharfenberg: Yes. Murphy: Yes. Spizale: Yes. Dillon: Yes. Atkins: Yes. Stolar: There you have it. Todd Neils: Thank you very much. Stolar: It's just a statement of opinion. Not a formal motion. Todd Neils: May I ask one additional thing that relates to scoreboards? On the very bottom there in small lettering, rather than saying Home of the Chanhassen Little League, will we be allowed to state that we did donate these scoreboards to the City? Stolar: I believe we had a donation policy, don't we? Hoffman: The policy that, yeah. That doesn't speak to that. I don't have a problem with that. We wouldn't want it to say Home of the Chanhassen Little League. Todd Neils: That's why I said, they won't say that at all. It just donation made by Chanhassen Little League. Hoffman: Yeah, no problem with that. Stolar: Does any commissioner have a problem with that? Okay, good. Todd Neils: Once again thank you for your time. Stolar: Thanks Todd. Sorry to make you guys wait til all hours of the night here. Todd Neils: My pleasure. Stolar: And Todd, Mr. Hoffman, are you okay with where we're at? 39 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: Absolutely. Stolar: Okay. So I think we're all saying the same thing and we're all supporting the same objective. Thank you for your efforts. REPORTS: LAKE ANN PARK SUMMER SCHEDULE. Ruegemer: Lake Ann concession operation is going to be opening up this weekend. Weather permitting. We've had the concession staff down there last weekend. Kind of doing the post winter cleaning and that sort of stuff, and then I've been down there on a daily basis. Deliveries are starting to come in for that site. We're basically all set to go. We have all college age kids that are going to be working down there in the summer so hopefully we'll have a nice, rebounding season from last year. Little tough on everybody. But other than that we're all set to go. Beach is going to open up I believe the 10th or 11th of June with that so again as the commission knows we'll be going through Minnetonka Community Education Services again. And the beach will be open again from 10:30 to 8:00 on a daily basis so. Picnic phone calls continue to come in with that daily and we seem to be kind of picking up now again with phone calls and people booking up for graduations and weddings and family reunions and that sort of thing too, so that's it. Stolar: I had one question I brought up to Todd earlier which was when we had the whole lifeguard contract discussion. The discussion then was that the Minnetonka Community Ed had agreed to equal the calendar that was proposed by the alternative, I forgot his name. Ruegemer: John. Stolar: John's alternative and this date reflects their original contract date as opposed to the alternative date of a week earlier. Ruegemer: So you want to start a week earlier? Stolar: Well Ijust want to make sure that that is what we, when we were reviewing the contract understood it to be. Whether the city staff chooses to make it different, that's your call but that's the obligation that I hope MCES realizes they have to us. Ruegemer: I think that was stated that evening, was it not that they would start. Stolar: Yes. So city staff has made a choice to postpone it a week. Just want to make sure that is clear. Ruegemer: We talked about that just with the closures of school being June 9th and yeah. Being in line with previous years. We didn't see having it open a full week prior to that just with the amount of beach traffic that mayor may not be there. 40 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: If we were facing 90-100 degree temperatures for a couple weeks, we'd probably open.. .Based on the current weather patterns and past weather patterns. Stolar: And end of school. I just want to make sure people understand that that was our choice. Hoffman: Absolutely. SUMMER PROGRAM NEWS. Ruegemer: Just a kind of informational piece for the commission tonight that Corey has put together kind of a listing of all the field trips and different programs that are going to be going on over the course of the summer. Nice list of fun opportunities for our kids of our community. Going to be a lot of fun things going on. The online registration certainly is being used so that's been a good thing for us. That people can register on line from their home. Certainly people are dropping off registrations off at city hall and also the recreation center so it's, we're down a little bit at this point. I can't give you a percentage at this point but we still have openings in a lot of different programs so they'll slowly trickle in and we'll have a good summer. SELF SUPPORTING PROGRAMS-ADULT SOFTBALL LEAGUE. Ruegemer: Just another update to the commission just kind of where we're at for adult softball members, and kind of what the make up is of the individual nights of the teams. What fields they're playing on and the length of season. It's more of an informational. We're up to about 53 teams this year which is about in line with what we were in previous years. With that some weeks may fluctuate. Some up or down, depending on the night and there's always teams that move in and out every year so we're pretty steady for numbers so. We need to get out of this wet pattern here so we don't have rain out's every night but we'll be in good shape. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. Stolar: Then we had a couple items added to the agenda. Hoffman: Special meeting. Just wanted to make sure that we remind ourselves that on June 14th, probably 4 playground vendors will stand before you and make a proposal on $175,000 playground proposal for Lake Susan Park. $175,000 includes the equipment itself, all the poured in place surfacing and the concrete, so the actual equipment will be closer to $90,000-$100,000. Something like that. And so that evening we need to pick as a commission the one you feel serves the community best and we will take that design and put it out to a bid at a future date. Spizale: What time was that meeting Todd? Hoffman: 7:00 to 9:00. 7:00 to 7:30. 7:30 to 8:00. 8:00 to 8:30 and 8:30 to 9:00. You get the four presentations. If we don't get four, we'll just start a bit later. Start at 7:30. Scharfenberg: But we start at 7:00? 41 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: 7:00. We need to start at 7:00 if we get all four responses. Stolar: Okay. Hoffman: And then a recap? Going to recap tonight for the... Stolar: The dog park. We looked at two sites. Lake Ann. Two sites on Lake Ann actually and then also we looked at Lake Susan, and seems like there's opportunity there. I don't know if the commission wanted to put forward in June a specific, ask staff to put a specific recommendation forward. If we wanted to draft one. How did you guys want to approach it? If we want to take action on these, we probably want to do so quickly. Because isn't June-July the CIP time and if there is investment involved, we want to make sure it gets in there. Hoffman: Yeah, you could just include it in the CIP for this coming year. We have to get an estimation on what it would cost. Stolar: Do we, from those who visited, do you have a sense for where you want to go with, or have you seen the areas we talked about? Murphy: I haven't seen Lake Susan, no. Atkins: I really liked Lake Susan. I think that there might be more things to look at. Or more discussion. Maybe we need to have. Stolar: Do we want to do in June another. Atkins: Maybe get together early. Stolar: In June? Atkins: Yeah. Stolar: Is that okay with everybody? Do we want to do additional park tours and actually then hold, you know do, maybe one other park tour but then have a discussion? Atkins: Yeah, we have some real basic things we have to decide. Like what type. Spizale: I think also tonight we looked at two different ideas as far as the park. Nothing to say we can't have two. We can have a nice fenced in one. A smaller one. We would have a more natural open one. Stolar: Ann and Jack, you guys were part of the focus look. Would you guys want to draft, kind of no different than let's say this discussion document I had for the skate park. Draft something like that prior to discussion in June. And then we know that there may be other options that we 42 "' Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 still might look at, but we can talk through some of that. Would that be helpful Todd then you think to move this forward. Murphy: For June 14th? Stolar: No, I'm sorry. June 14th we've got to focus on the playground. I forgot. That's, or can we? Hoffman: It'd be the 20, what's the next one? Murphy: The last one in June, okay. Stolar: June 28th I think. There is no urgency to proceed before that is there? For this, I wouldn't think. Because we'll have to align it with the CIP recommendations anyway. Hoffman: The schedule will start in June. Council's starting to talk about the regular budget in the next few weeks. Stolar: And some of these may not even involve the CIP if we go with just allowing an area to have off leash, right? Be minor as far as signage potentially, but I think if we bundle it all together with kind of the annual process. Spizale: Yeah we do have, like Todd and I were talking in the car, that $20,000 that we were going to give to that other park, we're not bound with that. We could put $20,000 into the other one and get one going. Stolar: Okay, so for our June meeting we'll, the June 28th meeting we'll have. Hoffman: A tour at Lake Susan and then what else did you want to do? Stolar: Lake Susan, do you want to do another tour of Lake Susan? Probably with that recommendation. Atkins: Sure. It wouldn't hurt for Tom and Ann. Stolar: And then maybe, is there another one that sticks in your mind Todd as the next, as another one we ought to look at? Hoffman: You probably ought to go back to Lake Ann and look at that again. Get a consensus there. Beyond that, the other ones we have listed were Kerber Pond. Atkins: There's no parking there though is there? Hoffman: No, you'd have to park on Kerber Boulevard. Atkins: I mean we could surely drive by there and just have a look. 43 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: It's more of a neighborhood opposition factor there comes into play I think. And then Herman Field Park. ...talked about that. I think it's mainly a poor location because of it's isolation and the fact that it's lout of 100 people could find it. And other than that. Stolar: You were saying Bandimere you thought. Hoffman: Bandimere we could... Scharfenberg: That lower level in Bandimere. Hoffman: There's some space there. Stolar: I don't know if we can fit 3 in in one time. Hoffman: We'd have to be quick. I think we can. Atkins: Eat in the car this time. Hoffman: Oh we'll eat at Lake Susan.. . nice night. Spizale: We could start at Bandimere and, first because we haven't seen it and spend a little bit less time at the other two. Stolar: And then I guess when you pull this together, if you can, even working with Todd, just briefly highlight for Kerber what some of the pros and cons are. Because it seems like we're down to basically 4 things we want to seriously look at. Kerber, Lake Ann, Bandimere and Lake Susan. Is that? Hoffman: The things Lake Ann and Lake Susan have going for them is the proximity to parking. We've looked at a variety of accessory facilities at Bandimere and the difficulty comes in, is the parking and then you have to walk through the ball fields. The small parking lot is nearly always full because of the playground and soccer fields and other things so if you would put it out to that parking lot, we're going to have pretty consistent parking issues at Bandimere. We've had, in the original master plan for Bandimere there was a hard surface basketball area. Tennis court and those type of things which would not fulfill the date because of that parking issue. Lake Susan is very convenient parking. Lake Ann very convenient. But we'll look at Bandimere because it's worth the conversation. We've got great real estate down there that could be utilized for other uses. Murphy: So our next regular meeting will be at 6:00 then? To do these parks again. Hoffman: Yes. Murphy: Okay. 44 :-,j Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: Well the tour will be at 6:00. The regular meeting at 7:30. Murphy: And then we'll still do the proposal before the meeting? Stolar: Well I'm thinking if you can draft something for the meeting like what I had as a discussion document, which just basically says you know here's what we envision here and just a discussion document so whatever you guys think about that's working with Todd. We haven't really talked about Bandimere but if, based on Todd's view of that, here's what we think we could do there. Here would be the pros, here would be the cons. Pros might be you know, we've got all this open space. It's readily available. It's not near a neighborhood. I don't know if that's true or not. The cons would be the parking isn't there. But I think if we just focus on the four of them and just kind of delineate what we would do. What do we think the advantages are? Any potential roadblocks to it. And then we'll just have that as an agenda item. Boy that could be a lot of people attending that one too. Hoffman: Lake Susan would be a great self advertising site. People would see it. That's a good thing about parks. So people can see other people using the parks... That's one of the reason why the archery range is so popular at Lake Susan. You can see it. You can see it from the road. Scharfenberg: I don't mean to extend things but one quick just to go back to the skate park issue one last time. When I was talking to the skaters afterwards, is there any reason why we don't lock down the park at night? Hoffman: We don't have the ability to do it. Scharfenberg: When you say ability, just to. Hoffman: Who's going to lock it? Who's going to open it? Stolar: Who gets off at 10:00 and who gets on. 10:00 at night and who gets on. Scharfenberg: Can't Carver County, can't we ask the police department to do that. The sheriff's that come by. Not necessarily. Hoffman: We could. It's not a reasonable expectation under our contract. We've had many gates and we had a gate at South Lotus. We had a gate to Lake Ann. That was the responsibility of Carver County to open and close it... There's a couple different padlocks. Couple different chains. You have to chain it and close it to open it every night. It's not, is it something that can happen? Yeah. Is it something they would want to do? No. If the City Council said you're going to do it? Then they'd have to do it. But opening and closing that thing, when we're open 9 months out of the year, 270 times. Closing it 270 times. Opening it 270 times. Something they would prefer not to do. They would see that that time would be better spent doing other things in the community, and it just doesn't run us to the level of something that they would see in their eyes and in some sense I agree with that. We have the ability to close it so, but... Dillon: .. . close the fence, what are we locking here? I mean people can jump over it. 45 Park and Rec Commission - May 24, 2005 Hoffman: They jump over it all the time. Scharfenberg: But I mean it's just easy access. You've got to close it. It's locked down. It just seems like an option. I mean if the graffiti continues to be an issue, it's going to be harder to climb over it, although it can be done. Just to simple lock it down at night. Hoffman: I don't think the benefit you're going to see, kids climb it all the time. It's locked now and is it going to deter some casual use? Probably. Will it deter a vandal? Not if they want to get in. Stolar: But I think it was good to bring it up though because that was a point they had mentioned in their. You know what I forgot to follow up on that one guy's comment about the creativity of the signs. I mean my thought is if they want to create a volunteer association that creates their own sign and allows us to take these yellow ones down, I'm fine with that. I mean if it gets to the point where the positive signs work better, because they've taken ownership like they talked about in this volunteerism. We'd be happy to take those signs down. Forgot to mention that. Atkins: I'll talk to him when he comes into Caribou. Stolar: Please, because I think that was a good idea that as they take ownership, we can change signs that say don't do something to signs that say, hey this is our's. I'd be all for that. Hoffman: Are these signs... Stolar: Absolutely. They are perfect targets. Yellow, sitting out there. I assume we have a motion to adjourn. Scharfenberg moved, Atkins seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 46 ,._'t