CC Minutes 1997 09 22CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
SEPTEMBER 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino called the meeting to order at 6:37 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the
Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Berquist, Councilman Mason and
Councilman Senn
COUNCILMEMBERS ABSENT: Councilman Engel
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Kate Aanenson, Charles Folch, Todd Gerhardt, Bob
Generous, and Todd Hoffman
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the
agenda amended to delete item 4.5, Rezoning Request by Valley Sales of Chanhassen, per the applicant's
request, from the agenda. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve the
following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
Approve Amendment to Arboretum Business Park Development Contract PUD Agreement, Steiner
Development, Project No. 97-16.
Consider Request by Utility Systems of America for Extended Work Hours of Monday-Friday, 7:00
a.m. to 7:00 p.m., Arboretum Business Park Area Street and Utility Phase I Improvement Project
97-1.
Resolution #97-76: Approve Renewal of Gambling Permit at the Backstretch Bar, 581 West 78th
Street, Chanhassen Lion's Club.
g. Approve 1998 Police Contract with Carver County Sheriff's Department.
Amendment to City Code to Prohibit Encroachments on Setbacks that have been Granted for
Variances, Final Reading; and Approval of Summary Ordinance for Publication Purposes.
i. Approval of Bills.
City Council Minutes dated September 8, 1997
Planning Commission Minutes dated September 3, 1997
Park & Recreation Commission Minutes dated August 26, 1997
Amendment to City Code, Chapter 20, Article XXX, Towers and Antennas to Allow for Temporary
Mobile Towers, First Reading.
Resolution #97-77: Annual Review, Use of Snowmobile Regional Light Rail Transit Route as a
Snowmobile Trail.
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Ce
Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Senn seconded to table approval of the Reassignment
of Development Contract/PUD Agreement for Autumn Ridge 1st and 2na and 3ra Additions,
D.R. Horton, Project Nos. 95-5 and 96-4. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
VISITOR PRESENTATION: REQUEST FOR FUNDING, CHASKA COMMUNITY HOCKEY
ASSOCIATION.
Kevin McShane: Good evening Mayor Mancino, Council members. My name is Kevin McShane. I reside
at 180 South Shore Court in Chanhassen and I'm here tonight representing our arena campaign. I'm one of
the tri-chairs of the campaign and with me tonight is another tri-chair, Randy Mueller. He'll be part of our
presentation. And our consultant Mark Davey. And just wanted to give you a brief recap of, some of you
are familiar with where some of this has been at but basically this has been an effort between the three
communities, Chanhassen, Chaska and Victoria, as well as our School District and as I think everyone's
aware, we did apply for and receive $250,000.00 in Mighty Ducks Funding for this project. The overall
project is estimated to be $2.25 million, and of that we've committed as a part of both the Hockey
Association and the Figure Skating families, to organize this ice arena effort and I do stress that it is an ice
arena versus just a hockey arena. There is some differences there. This facility will allow not only the
Hockey Association to acquire some additional ice, but the figure skaters as well. There will be open ice
times during prime time and the hours that the facility is used with the school district is a benefit to all
those children that fill out those phy-ed pods at the District that provide for children. Basically the three
communities have already made a commitment as a part of our Mighty Ducks presentation. There were a
lot of letters that were put together. Mark Davey, our consultant, assisted in that. Some of the feedback
we received from the Commission that approves that is that it was one of the best presentations they had
ever received in terms of the overall packet. They do awards for varying amounts. The maximum is 250
and we did receive that so we're very pleased. Combined with what we've committed to raise another 250,
that's a $500,000.00 down payment if you will on a project of $2.25. And I think that's been really
unprecedented in our area for this kind of an effort and it really is those five entities that will hopefully
make all this happen. I think as a part of the packet you received, hopefully it was, the brochure should
have been included and on a copy of the memo I received there was a copy of the article in the Chaska
Herald that summarized the recent developments for where we're at in the project. We do hope to get
underway this fall with the construction. Hopefully early October. To do that we want to try to have as
much of this committed as possible. I think in the article the City would like us to see half of that 250
committed. Where we're at in the campaign is the first people we went to were the parents in both the
Figure Skating Association and the CCHA. The next step is to solicit the High School, both JV and senior
players and their families. The City of Chaska has committed to put the land in. They've also done
bonding for the project. The City of Victoria, I think you're aware has made a $30,000.00 commitment
and we're looking to visit with Chanhassen to participate as well. One of the formulas that we've looked at
is the number of Chanhassen families that are in the association as well as the other two communities and
basically the breakdown is Victoria has about 10% of the kids in the program, Chanhassen about 40% and
Chaska basically the difference. And so that's part of how we've come up with what our request will be
from the City. I'd like to mm it over to Randy Mueller at this point to give a recap of the project itself and
then we'll wrap up in just a minute.
Randy Mueller: Mayor, Council. Thanks again for inviting us. As Kevin mentioned, a lot of activity has
gone in really a relatively short period of time and just a fantastic community project of the three
communities. What I want to share with you here, a little bit of the plans right now for the second ice arena
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
to be added to the Chaska Community Center. Just give you again very high level background of why we're
constructing what we're really calling a practice arena. This is not a full game arena with all the bells and
whistles. Primarily a practice arena to keep costs low and really address the ice shortage problem that our
youth athletes in the community suffer really during the difficult months which really begin now all the way
through the end of March. Basically it's going to run, hopefully you can hear me, parallel to the existing
sheet of ice. We'll still use the common entryway.., be able to mm and walk through the first sheet and
then into the second arena itself. So as a result of this renovation project, we will be moving the
resurfacing equipment, the zamboni itself... As you can see over here, the team locker rooms are greatly
expanded over the existing team rooms. Right now that's a big problem with... Have expanded the size of
each of those rooms. Where possible, I think the engineers have done a very good job. We will leverage
the existing ice equipment and infrastructure and the dehumidification equipment.., and anything we can do
to keep costs down to an absolute minimum. The plans are, in some future point in time. Not as part of
our fundraising campaign.., cost of the project, we will have the capability to have 140 seats in the new
practice arena. And again this is an arena that we still are going to be very proud of... elaborate game
arena but games and other types of events can be hosted. Spectator seating is allowed for up to about 140
people. At one time, just again a little background. They were looking at building a second arena right
here. The key problem is that.., parking area, this is a problem.., as well as we're getting awfully close.., so
all and all this appeared to have a better flow. Running it parallel. The bid process has actually been
drafted. I know the bids are in the process of being released.., except to move very aggressively. Hopefully
getting the footings in early here within the month of October-November, prior to the cold winter months
and then hopefully if everything goes according to plans, have the arena somewhat operational by mid to
late summer and hopefully next year have the practice arena available for the community use. Right now
just a little bit of the background and a little history and I think this was brought to your attention last time
I was here and gave the presentation. Because we have basically a supply and demand problem, a number
of our youth athletes today, we travel to New Prague. We're going to be traveling to Le Sueur. Anywhere
we can basically find ice which isn't available in the community. This is part of the reason why we're very
strong in promoting this second sheet of ice. Coupled with the fact that over the last two years, outdoor ice
has not been that suitable of an option given to the winter weather extremes of the community we live in.
And plus just the need for quality indoor ice for figure skaters and for hockey teams to practice according
to plan. One thing that you may find of interest. Most of the other school problems within the district that
our kids, our athletes compete in are in the process of building really their third sheet of ice. Chaska is the
only community in the district that has one sheet, with the exception of Richfield. Again some are building
their third and also entertaining their fourth sheets of ice and according to school district projections, if the
trend continues, this is an area that is highly desirable to live. Very quickly, even the second sheet of ice
will be limited in servicing the young athletes of the community and we should already be thinking about
longer term, our third sheet of ice so it's not like we're entering into this you know having a lot of excess
ice available with the construction of the second sheet of ice arena but actually making up for a deficit
where we're at today. So anyway with that, that's a little bit of the arena itself. A little background. I'll
mm it back over to Kevin.
Kevin McShane: Just a couple other comments on the campaign itself. We do intend to go to the
community at large with this and we've put together a volunteer group out of both the figure skating and
hockey folks. And we felt that one of the things that would help with the success of that, to make sure that
we have covered all the communities that are involved, all the associations and to get as many commitments
in place as we can, we've asked for a quick response to our solicitation to the hockey families. Those are
now coming in. We're doing the same with the high school people and we want to be able to go to the
corporate folks in our communities and to give them an idea of the level of commitment we have and the
more of these people and entities that we have in place, the better. The other thing is, as far as the timing,
we're anxious to get that done because most companies are now in the process of doing their budgeting for
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
next year and beyond. We did have a company that's already made a commitment because their process is
ahead of some of the others and they've already budgeted for that and we've received their pledge over a
two year period. It's a $10,000.00 pledge. $5,000.00 a year for two years. We're asking for a three year
pledge in our campaign and I know in our case, at our company we start that process in late September and
try to have it wrapped up at the end of October so we're anxious to get the process moving so that we can
hit those people at the right time and get considered for the next three years as far as a commitment. What
we're asking for from our city in Chanhassen is a $40,000.00 commitment over three years and basically
part of that is based on a formula of the number of families that are involved in the program and that's one
of the ways we came up with that number. And as I look at it, and I think I mentioned to someone before,
it's a bit ofa twofer in that, with the Mighty Ducks money, the money that we're able to raise is basically a
match against that so to come in with a $500,000.00 commitment in a project like this and with the
commitment of the Hockey Association for the hours that they've guaranteed that they will buy and the
lease with the school district it really, it makes this whole project work from not only covering the operating
costs, estimated operating costs, but the estimated debt service as well and I think that's important that this
becomes a self funding project from that standpoint. So with that I thank you for your time.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any questions? Kevin, if you want to stay up for a minute and we may have
some questions.
Kevin McShane: I'd be glad to.
Councilman Senn: Point of clarification. $40,000.00 over three years. Are you saying you're asking for
$120,000.00 or you're asking for?
Kevin McShane: Pardon me. $40,000.00 a year for three years for a total of 120.
Councilman Senn: So you're asking for $120,000.007
Kevin McShane: Correct. Over three years.
Mayor Mancino: So approximately half of the 250 you're trying to raise.
Kevin McShane: Approximately, yes.
Councilman Senn: Okay. And based on the amount of kids we have in the program, that's roughly over a
thousand and some odd dollars per kid you want us to kick in.
Kevin McShane: That sounds correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay. Question. If we would be so inclined to consider or do such a thing in that we
have an equal number of kids in our community in the Minnetonka ice program, would you make 20% of
the regulation and prime ice time in this center available to the Minnetonka ice program?
Kevin McShane: The City of Chaska.
Councilman Senn: Of our 40% is where my math is coming from.
Kevin McShane: Well the City of Chaska would need to, I mean they're the ones that own and operate the
arena and I know that they're anxious to lease or rent as much of that time as possible. And I know that
they've committed to the open skate, to not have a differential between the communities. Currently there
has been in terms of the cost for a resident and non-resident. They've agreed to waive that for all the
residents of the three communities going forward. And the Minnetonka Hockey Association could certainly
approach Chaska and purchase whatever's available.
Councilman Senn: And that would be available on the same basis.
Kevin McShane: Maybe Mark, do you want to address that as well.
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mark Davey: Good evening. My name is Mark Davey and I'm working as a consultant to this campaign.
I just would like to go back and answer that question, $1,000.00 per individual athlete playing in the
program. If the arena only lasted one year, that would be true. It'd be $1,000.00 an athlete, except this
arena will be there for 30 years so a gift from the City of Chanhassen over a 3 year period to this program
will not only cover the athletes this year, next year, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years out. So on a one year basis
it's $1,000.00, but on the length of the arena being there and the commitment that Chaska has made to
Chanhassen making a commitment, I would think you'd be talking much, much less than that. Maybe like
$10.00 a student that would participate over the next 20 years. The other question was about a
commitment on ice time. The Hockey Association has worked really hard with the City of Chaska to get a
commitment from them to give available ice time to free skate for the young people of Chanhassen who
have a Chanhassen address. I think as far as the hockey associations are concerned, I'm sure that Chaska
will do everything possible so that Minnetonka would have available some skating, or skating time that they
have available. But to ask them to guarantee Minnetonka, you'd have to work with Chaska to do that. I
mean they'd have to answer that question .... of how much of Minnetonka is part of Chanhassen and I
don't know how they'd figure that out.
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, half of our kids that play hockey are in the Minnetonka Hockey Association.
Mark Davey: So you could.., half of those teams can practice but the rest. I'm sure that they would work
it out. I mean they're eager to work with you. But those guarantees would have to come...
Mayor Mancino: Kevin, is there a set time. Is there peak time, so many hours of ice that the Chaska
Community Hockey Association has been told that you will have from the City of Chaska? And what are
those times, etc.?
Randy Mueller: Well the prime time ice available for our youth athletes really, they look at starting about
6:00 going till 10:00, Monday through Friday and really going from 6:00 in the morning until 10:00 at
night on Saturday and Sunday. If you look at those hours considered prime time ice over that 6 to 7 month
period, you really have about 1,200 hours of ice that one rink can serve. Clearly the high school athletes,
and keep in mind we are very much supportive of the girls, a new girls high school program and we're very
excited about the new coach and this is new for our community because Eden Prairie no longer is
supporting our girl athletes so, but anyway. They will consume the ice prior to prime time such as you
know, beginning at 3:00 to 6:00. That's where their practice will come in. Prior to.
Mayor Mancino: So the women have to take off prime time hours?
Randy Mueller: Women and boys. Both are consuming really those hours of ice prior to you know 6:00 if
you will, until 10:00. Yeah, and there's some unique things that are going on that the school district is
trying to do to accommodate additional programs like our girls high school program, including altering that
last hour of education if possible so they can get in to use the one sheet of ice. So what does that mean? If
You look at what we have procured, and again this is an estimate if you will that the Youth Hockey
Association I believe has bought, give or take. We're buying between 600 and 700 hours of ice.
Mayor Mancino: So out of the 1,200 prime time, you're buying between 600 and 700?
Randy Mueller: 700 roughly and 500 hours of prime time, keep in mind, we can't consume it all. I mean
we have a community to serve as well. 500 of those hours go to a combination of open skate. A
combination of figure skating club and other community needs so, basically the 1,200 hours are consumed.
Based on the task force that I was involved with looking at growth projections of young kids moving to this
area, the growth in our figure skating club, the growth in girls hockey as well as men's hockey. I mean we
could consume 1,200 hours ourselves. All right, right now we could consume it all which would leave no
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
time for anyone else. Now with the second sheet of ice, does that free up potentially some hours that could
be sold to the Minnetonka Hockey Association? I believe it may, and I know the City of Chaska, you know
would certainly entertain that. Right now we'd like to get all those hours back that we're paying the
communities of New Prague and Le Sueur because we had to go buy hours from them because there's none
available.
Mayor Mancino: Sure, and Minnetonka does too.
Randy Mueller: Just like Minnetonka, and they've got the same issue so. The reality of it is, even with the
second sheet of ice, you know we're trying to address a demand problem for both our youth hockey
association and clearly Minnetonka's facing the same issue. We're operating in a deficit position now.
Not building a surplus. But again, I have found the City of Chaska willing and open and able, I mean
that's part of this whole project to work with various communities and I don't see any reason why they
wouldn't work with the Minnetonka Hockey Association to help them out as well. I would be hard pressed
to do that.
Mayor Mancino: And that's a discussion we need to have with them then.
Randy Mueller: Yeah, and they run the ice. They operate the ice and that's also why we're very excited
about this second sheet there. I mean this is a very, scheduling of ice is very difficult and complex and I
think they've proven they've done a pretty good job of that. And they're selling us the ice by the way at
below market rates. You notice at $110.00 an hour, that may seem high but to keep the costs of our young
athletes to participate, that's actually below market compared to what they could sell it to Eden Prairie or
anyone else that would be willing to buy it at substantially more an hour.
Councilman Senn: I want to understand what you said before so I don't misunderstand it I guess. But
what you were saying is effectively the school can't do, the school programs have the ice time effectively
slotted from 3:00 to 6:00, which is normal because they have their practices right after school.
Randy Mueller: Right.
Councilman Senn: And then you're saying from 6:00 to 10:00, which is the prime time outside of the
school programs effectively, you have slotted effectively for your program.
Randy Mueller: For youth hockey. For figure skating club. For community open skate, yes. During the
week. As well as on weekends so.
Councilman Senn: Right, and then Saturday and Sunday you're saying from 7:00 in the morning or what
was it, 6:00 in the morning.
Randy Mueller: 6:00 in the morning.
Councilman Senn: Until 10:00 at night you also have it slotted for your association and.
Randy Mueller: Figure skating and open ice.
Councilman Senn: And open ice time.
Randy Mueller: Yeah. And then of course you add in high school games, you know which consume ice,
which again we don't have available but roughly speaking, that's how it works. That's how you do the
math to come up with it. You've got 1,200 hours of prime time period.
Councilman Senn: Okay, and that time's already committed effectively to either open or your association
at.
Mayor Mancino: 600, 700 hours.
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: Right, and the other 500's open or whatever so like you said there is no available time
for other associations. And if so, they pay a higher rate is what you're basically saying.
Randy Mueller: They're out there talking to New Prague or Le Sueur or as far as they can go to find ice.
They're out there buying ice right now. I mean there are sometimes, you know we have bought ice from
Parade Stadium in downtown Minneapolis for you know 6:00 in the morning practice. I mean we'll get, I
mean you could pick-up some ice like that. You know you buy it wherever you can find it. And that's
difficult on our parents as well as our athletes when you consider you drive to New Prague and you know
it's an hour drive. Then you've got the practice and an hour drive back and that's, I don't know about you
but that's 3-3 ½ hours of my time as well as kids time away from school and other activities, but that's the
price you pay you know when you're in this type of environment we're in.
Councilman Berquist: I want to try and gain a perspective on the project rather than the operation of the
project. Back when we were toying with the idea of putting it in the Chan Business Park, I'm trying to
remember what we had for a preliminary budget. I'm thinking to myself it was a million and a half to put
the arena up and the fill and all the necessary stuff to make it operable. Am I remember right?
Randy Mueller: Our original projection to build a stand alone arena was in the million two to million five
range, yes. Not including obviously the land or.
Councilman Berquist: Right, the land was there. We talked about that.
Mayor Mancino: Soil corrections.
Councilman Berquist: Well there was some. There was.., of soil that had to be taken out but we've gone
from let's say a million and a half, for the sake of round numbers. Two and a quarter. From
what.., saying, we're reducing the chiller with the existing chiller. You don't have any zamboni cost. You
have one zamboni.
Randy Mueller: In that 2.5 includes a new zamboni. This resurfacer room.., zambonies. The good news
about that is that if one breaks down, we have another one.
Councilman Berquist: All right, that was included in the million five originally so, but the point is, we've
got, we're using the existing chiller which is a significant. Existing dehumidification system. Maybe some
modification. But all of a sudden we're up ~ of a million dollars and the significant part of the arena that
is already in place. I'm having a difficult time understanding that. I know the construction materials is
somewhat different.
Randy Mueller: You know part of maybe what wasn't discussed at a great deal of length when we talked
about the arena in Chanhassen is, you know one thing that we're going to have to do is aesthetically we're
going to need to conform to the Community Center. Structurally, their standard. It's hard to say this but
broad brush, it's not apples and oranges. This was a real scaled down building. The one that we had
talked to Chanhassen about. I hate to use the analogy of a pole barn, but I mean it was not.
Councilman Berquist: Well it was a pole barn. Go ahead.
Mayor Mancino: It would go with an existing Rec Center in another City. It would not be compatible.
Randy Mueller: Yeah. Your Rec Center is beautiful. I mean it was not your Rec Center. It was a nice
arena. Functional and very adequate. Is it something that we tell the world about, you know look at that
beautiful facility? Probably not. No.
Councilman Berquist: What strikes me, honestly. If you look at the site, I mean there is, I don't think that
there is, I mean the back of that and the south side of that is going to be visible from anywhere whatsoever.
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Randy Mueller: Yeah, because it does.
Councilman Senn: You have severe grades that are going down which will mean, I mean that's going to
impact your construction cost too.
Councilman Berquist: But that whole area is...
Councilman Senn: No, not where this is going. Severe drop.
Councilman Berquist: And you're actually working into the grade? Into the drop?
Councilman Senn: No.
Councilman Berquist: It's not flat enough all the way back there?
Randy Mueller: Bringing it up to the level of the current facility so as you come in, it's all on, both sheets
will be on one level and you'll just walk through. They have to actually bring that up and do some earth
work back there.
Councilman Berquist: But it still, you don't have to build retaining structures.
Randy Mueller: There will be some retaining structures.
Councilman Berquist: And the engineer's estimate is $2.25 million so it remains to be seen when the bids
come in actually how close he is, but assuming that he's close.
Kevin McShane: Actually the original numbers that, as we started this project were at a million eight to a
million nine, and as they got into the finals, it's at 2.2 and they feel pretty confident that they'll be very,
very close to that. This was about the ninth or tenth version of how that could be situated there. And how
it could be figured and there was a lot of input by community groups, both figure skaters, hockey people
and lots of variations were done of this and when the final was done and they rebid it, I know that the City
of Chaska feels confident that these numbers should be pretty solid. I mean there's been a lot of work on it
to this point.
Mark Davey: I'd just like to share one thought that our firm's done six of these, and every one of them
started out at $1.8 million that they could them for. Not one of them ended up less than $2.3. Whether it's
Hastings or Mahtomedi or Brainerd, they all started out somewhere between $1.6 and $1.8 because of the
anxiousness to get them built. But when the real costs were broken down, they all ended up over $2
million. Hastings was a good example of doing the same thing that we're suggesting here. They start out
at $1.8. They ended up at $2.3. You can't build an arena anymore.
Councilman Berquist: Were they second arenas? Add-on's?
Mark Davey: Yeah. Second add-on's.
Councilman Berquist: They were.
Mark Davey: And the numbers always come out the same. And it really is working with the architects,
and I don't know how this happens but the architects look at the buildings and say they can do them for 1.8
and when everything's added, it's 2.3.
Mayor Mancino: So the 1.2 and the 1.5 in Chanhassen was not a realistic number really?
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mark Davey: Well at the time they might have been realistic numbers by who was looking at them but I'm
just sharing with you in other communities, this is the way the numbers always come out.
Randy Mueller: ... New Prague ice arena.., if you look at their facility, and that cost in the $1.2 range. It's
a good facility but I mean, not the same standard materials... They did a nice job and they should be
applauded that community for building an arena. But when you start breaking it down, what went into that
facility versus this facility.
Councilman Berquist: So if the thing had been built privately, it would have been built on a much more
value engineering taking place as far as materials and that sort of thing. I mean that's fine, let me go on if
you don't mind. Randy, you talked about, we're at the point where perhaps we as a community should be
thinking about a third sheet of ice. One of my concerns in this is that if the City of Chanhassen sees fit to
commit $120,000.00 over the course of three years, and in fact the need for ice continues to go up, the City
of Chanhassen should logically probably.., next hockey arena and I worry about number one, diluting the
process for fund raising down the road. And I wonder about the wisdom of taking that amount of cash out
of resources that we could in fact use as seed money for our own arena. Or the community's third arena
perhaps would be a better way to put it.
Mayor Mancino: The region's.
Councilman Berquist: The region's third arena. Can you speak to that at all?
Randy Mueller: Well it's a good point. You know we are somewhat bound by the school district and
they're obviously a very big player here. I mean, and by the way, they're very desperate for additional
phy-ed space just so everyone knows what they're doing and this is not tied to the referendum by the way.
Hearing today, they're using the new arena as a phy-ed pod to address the lack of phy-ed space, but
anyway. That's a real good point. We have a need today. This is a community project today. We will
continue to buy ice outside of this community. It's required because the demand is there. The City of
Chanhassen, if the figures are correct, will be the largest city within this area shortly. I mean the growth is
here but, and the demand, it will continue to grow. I would suggest strongly again, it should be focused on
how can we meet the needs of today. This is a tactical issue. A tactical need we have but I would again
strongly look at you know where are we going to be in 5 years from now, 10 years from now because yeah,
you'll go through this whole process again. I mean the way it's going, you'll be asked to participate in the
future.
Mayor Mancino: In a third sheet. Well we already have been from Minnetonka so it is also right now
currently the Minnetonka Youth Hockey Association would like another sheet of ice, especially if they can't
get any prime time on this new one that's coming into the area. So they have already stated that to us.
That they would like another sheet of ice for that hockey association to use.
Randy Mueller: And one comment I want to make about hockey, and I know this, and figure skating, that
just please keep in mind. We're talking a facility that's operational, or the plan, you know 7 months out of
the year versus, you know how often is your soccer fields and your baseball field being used and the
relative cost compared to running, maintaining and supporting this type of program versus what it costs
you to support baseball and soccer, etc. so this facility is intensely used. I mean and a lot of people benefit
from it. But you may want to think about the comparison you know relatively speaking what you're
spending to support those other programs versus supporting this program.
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: That's a good point and we do have that information quantified and how many kids from
the Chanhassen area are involved in soccer and how many are involved in baseball and basketball and
we're going to be looking at that and making sure that we're being fair to each athletic association in our
city.
Councilman Senn: Logistically I guess there's one thing I guess I'd really like to understand. You know
you gentlemen are here basically asking us for a contribution. But if we're going to contribute, who do we
have to negotiate and talk with to solidify meeting the needs of our overall community before we would
agree to a contribution or as part of a deal to agree to a contribution? What I've heard you said earlier
was, you know that's separate. How do we put it together?
Randy Mueller: No, it is somewhat separate but I would say that the key people that we need to talk to is
first of all the ice coordinator. His name's Tom Redmond. He also is on our youth hockey association
board and he's the head of Parks and Rec for Chaska. And also I would assume the City Manager, Mr.
Pokomey. By the way, the City of Victoria, when we asked them for their contribution, had some similar
issues and keep in mind they also are a growing community and growing quite fast and if projections are
correct, in 10 years they're going to be a pretty big city as well. They had some similar type concerns, not
to the point where you know, they're going to have anywhere near the population of Chanhassen but how
do we make it a little more equitable. How do we make this a little more of a community so that non-
residents of Chaska you know aren't charged extra fees to skate at the community center. And the
community center, the people running that have already gone on record saying because this is a community
wide project, you know we are going to eliminate, at least they have suggested to me anyway that extra
non-resident fee to use this facility. So anyway, where am I going with this? I have found the City of
Chaska since you know I've worked with them, just as I found the City of Chanhassen, in a very
collaborative, collegial state of mind in trying to make this happen. And I don't see any reason why they
would reject any proposal, especially if you're willing to contribute to the fund raising campaign, to look at
all options right now to support all of Chanhassen, including the needs of the Minnetonka youth. But I
clearly suggest again even beyond the second sheet, part of your long range planning, to look at you said
Steve, sheet number 3. I mean you're going to be in the leader's position I mean for that.
Mark Davey: I can answer that question... If you give to this campaign and you then decide to do an
arena 3 or 4 or 5 years from now, how will that affect the corporate community as far as making, turn out
to be a gift giving campaign. The answer to that is the new arena would be a plus to building another one
because if you'll have proved that it will work and the corporate donors like that. To see that one
community has done it. Then another will do it and I think if you look at all fund raising across the State of
Minnesota, whether it's higher education, secondary education, social service agencies, campaigns are
going on all the time and all of them, 90% of them are successful. The University of Minnesota will be
announcing a billion dollar campaign soon. They just got done with a $500 million. They will be
successful. St. Thomas announces a campaign for so much, they're successful. Philanthropy in Minnesota
is phenomenal and if it's a good cause and it makes sense for the community, these corporations up and
down Highway 5 will give. They've committed to this campaign and I think they'd commit to another
campaign.
Roger Knutson: Mayor?
Mayor Mancino: Yes.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Roger Knutson: Structurally the way this would be done, it would not be a gift. It would be an agreement
with the City of Chaska in which you would outline what you're getting. Whether it's no discrimination
against Chanhassen residents. Whether it's an agreement on rental rates being the same for Chanhassen
and Chaska residents or priority use of the ice sheet between different groups. Whatever you want, and
you can get whatever you can negotiate. What you put into a written, binding document. You can't make
gifts.
Councilman Senn: That answers my questions, thank you Roger.
Mark Davey: As I understand it, the school district has said.., so generous as to make this commitment,
they would, if you're more comfortable making it to the school district, that they could accept that based on
this campaign.
Roger Knutson: From what I understood from you saying that the City of Chaska is going to be the owner
of the property. So you'd want an agreement with the City of Chaska.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Berquist, any more questions?
Councilman Berquist: Not that we need to talk about here. There's a lot of stuff to talk about later.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Mason?
Councilman Mason: No questions.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you very much.
Kevin McShane: Thank you for your time.
Mayor Mancino: Is there anyone else tonight wishing to address the City Council under visitor
presentations or wishing to make a comment on the ice arena proposal? Seeing none, we will go ahead to
public hearings.
PUBLIC HEARING: ASSESSMENT HEARING FOR COUNTY ROAD 17 IMPROVEMENT
PROJECT 93-29.
Public Present:
Name Address
Darryl Fortier
Warren Rosavik
Representing Frank Beddor
Charles Folch: Thank you Madam Mayor, members of the Council. Basically this project, limited
extended from Trunk Highway 5 south to Lyman Boulevard. The primary project elements consisted of
upgrading the two lane rural road section to a four lane urban divided roadway. Storm sewer and ponding
was also an addition. Some sanitary sewer and watermain segments were also placed in the facility for
future service. Trails, street lighting and landscaping were the rest of the remaining primary elements.
The project cost for this project listed in the project engineer's letter dated September 12th, which you have
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
in your packet, itemizing the primary elements in comparing costs from the feasibility study to the final
engineers estimate and to the final project cost. As you compare the individual primary project elements,
relatively speaking the total construction costs for the final project of $3.45 million is roughly some
$40,000.00 under the final engineer's estimate which was predicted at the time of just prior to bidding the
project. One item you will note that has increased is the indirect costs between the final engineer's estimate
and the final project cost. Some $300,000.00. Basically this notable increase is defined, if you review
Attachment B in your handout, as the schedule for the individual indirect costs, and as was discussed
previously, a portion of this project from basically from Trunk Highway 5 south to Lake Drive was
previously proposed to be improved by the City back in the early 90's. In fact plans were drawn up and
the project then was ready for bidding but then was canceled at the last minute prior to bidding. What
you're seeing there in the 94 column for cost basically and our design engineering, the bulk of that is
carried forward costs that we had an expenses for the previous design of the segment from Trunk Highway
5 down to Lake Drive.
Mayor Mancino: Was that useable? Were those designs useable?
Charles Folch: Not really because what happened is, those designs, when that project was designed, the
north half of CR 17 and the West 78th Street downtown project, that was proposed to be completed before
those improvements so the alignment, the shifting and everything else did match up. Basically this was to
happen before another project and then when the other project, this didn't happen, the other one did so then
you basically have to realign things. Also the storm sewer layouts and things like that ended up being a
little bit different since we're doing a more comprehensive project. So in a sense, the bulk of those costs,
and plans put into that effort weren't fully useable with the redesign of the project. So that's where you see
the bulk of the share of the indirect costs coming from, as compared to the previous estimate. If you look
at that basically taking out those numbers, without the burden of these carry forward costs, we'd have final
project costs very close to what the, what were the final estimates prior to bidding the project. With
regards to the assessments, Attachment A provides you a schedule of the final assessments that are defined.
The only change to the methodology in the assessments for the project is that the large lot zoned properties
on the south end of the job, which are within the Hillside Oaks Addition, which was previously proposed to
be assessed for the trunk improvements. Basically now, staff would recommend that these assessments
basically be not collected at this time and that in the future when their septic and well systems fail and they
connect to the city system, then they'll pay a hook-up, trunk hook-up charge which will basically cover the
costs for the utility benefit associated with this improvement project. Overall the assessments are roughly
within 2% of the feasible study. A copy of the mailing list, of all the property owners involved, and
affidavit of mailing and also individual assessment notices are included in your packets accordingly. With
that staff and the project engineer are here tonight to answer any questions you or the public may have.
Mayor Mancino: Before I open this for a public hearing, any questions from Council members?
Councilman Senn: Yeah, I've got a couple. Charles, if the largest portion of this $300,000.00 increase is
carry forward costs, why didn't we always have those in the estimate if we knew they were there and we
were carrying them forward?
Charles Folch: Actually I did, I did not become aware that they were still hanging out there until we
actually generated or received all of the project cost to date for that funding from the finance department so
I did not realize they were going to be a carry forward cost until approximately a month ago.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: Okay. When we originally sent out the estimates on the assessments to the people who
live in the area. However, it was based on the lower cost, correct?
Charles Folch: That's correct.
Councilman Senn: These new assessment notices are now going out with the added $300,000.00 cost.
Charles Folch: A portion of that. Basically like I said, all of the assessments basically cost through the
individual properties are only a 2% increase. So a portion, I mean basically when you're looking at, if you
compare a Schedule A, Attachment A to Schedule E, you'll basically see the difference from what was
proposed at the feasibility time compared to, so basically the difference let's say for example the first one
which is Lot 1, Block 1, Park Two Second Addition, you basically have about a $900,000.00 increase from
the previous assessment of $154,400.00 to $155,400.00 so about a thousand dollars. So the direct, the full
$300,000.00 isn't necessarily fully assessed in there. We are assessing these properties 100% of the road
cost. Basically a portion of the road cost that has benefitted up adjacent to the business park.
Councilman Senn: How much precisely of the 39%, or $1,350,000.00 in total direct costs is that carried
forward?
Charles Folch: It's roughly that, if you look at it, it's roughly about $300,000.00. Two hundred and
seventy some thousand dollars there. That's the carry forward. And that amounts to about the difference
that you see between the, in that letter from September 12, 1997. The comparison between the column of
the final engineers estimate to the final project estimate, under indirect costs is approximately a
$300,000.00 difference there.
Mayor Mancino: The specific number is $276,508.39?
Charles Folch: That bulk of that, right.
Councilman Senn: Okay. That's it for questions at this time.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. I have none at this time. I'd like to open this for a public hearing. Anyone
wishing to address the Council on the road improvements, please come forward. State your name and
address please.
A1 Rosavik: My name is A1 Rasovik. I live at 8800 Powers Boulevard. When this first came out there
was assessed six lots on my property and based on the previous stipulation I went ahead and did some
engineering work. $35,000.00, and was told that I just need a variance but the fact is, on my property
could be six lots or it could drag down that cost there. Now again I don't get cooperation to get this done,
so I kind of find it strange to bring down sewer and the water down there and there's no way to hook up to
it. I have six lots actually and I don't get the cooperation to have this done.
Mayor Mancino: At what point will that, will he be able to hook up?
Charles Folch: It's available now if they want to hook up to it. The stubs have been placed, utility stubs
for the extension that Mr. Rosavik is referring to, they're in place right now. Basically, if I remember
correctly, your subdivision was kind of a joint venture with your neighbor.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
A1 Rosavik: Yes, but in just a little variance because the whole site, the whole cul-de-sac the City requires
on in conjunction with this will be on my side of the property. Won't affect the neighbor's property in the
second place.
Kate Aanenson: It's a land use question. It's guided for large lot residential. As you recall in our
comprehensive plan we stated that because they bought into the large lot character, that we would maintain
that unless a majority of the property owners wanted to change the character and wanted to become
urbanized. Instead of one or two people bringing it in and having the other people change the character...
This gentleman is ready to go forward and subdivide. Some of the others are not ready to go forward at
this point so that's the way we addressed it.
Mayor Mancino: And Kate, how many property owners are there in that large lot?
A1 Rosavik: There's only two. It's just me and my neighbor and my lot is larger than his.
Kate Aanenson: There's Oakside Circle too.
A1 Rosavik: Well yeah. Well they won't be affected by what we're talking about right now. It was only
what they're talking about on this assessment here. It's only one. The neighbors can come down. They're
not affected by block or anything like that at this point in time.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions?
Councilman Senn: I'm just trying to connect through in terms of what we do in an assessment hearing
that's going to impact that one way or the other.
Mayor Mancino: Will it affect it at all? This assessment hearing?
Charles Folch: If we were to assess these large lot subdivisions, you would likely have about seven more
property owners in here tonight saying you're forcing us now to connect to your system. That's what we'd
be doing.
Mayor Mancino: Sure. But.
Councilman Senn: But this gentleman can connect to it if he wants to.
Mayor Mancino: No. Not until a majority of the property owners in the large lot area.
Councilman Senn: Well wait. I want him to answer it.
Charles Folch: It's my understanding that he would need a rezoning, is that correct? Or a variance to the
zoning in order to plat the property. So it's a matter of going through procedure. Physically the lines are
there. Physically everything's available to connect to it but there's a process and procedure that must be
gone through with the zoning of the property before legally you can connect to it.
Kate Aanenson: The way we looked at it before.., both of those properties are accessed through Oakside
Circle. The subject property has direct access so if you wanted to consider the rezoning at a future date,
and consider the fact that it may not encumber the rest of the subdivision by letting him go forward at this
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
time. The problem is in order to make it work, he does need to acquire some additional property and get
some variances.., came forward. Again, our position that we want an opportunity to have everybody look
at the character of what you were doing with that neighborhood.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So he could certainly come forward and propose this subdivision.
Kate Aanenson: Sure. And come before you and ask for a rezoning... He has that right.
Councilman Senn: Okay.
A1 Rosavik: All right, I'll do that then.
Darryl Fortier: Good evening. I'm Darryl Fortier. I'm here to represent the owners of Park Two. There
seems to be some confusion and so they have filed an objection to the assessments. And they would like to
get the confusion straighten away of course and investigate what the previous assessment credits were and
my only question is, and it's not to be answered tonight. Who should they be contacting?
Mayor Mancino: That's a good question. Charles, should they be contacting you?
Don Ashworth: Todd Gerhardt.
Mayor Mancino: Todd Gerhardt. Our Assistant City Manager. 937-2900 Ext. 119.
Darryl Fortier: Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Yes. That's kind of scary isn't it. Anyone else wishing to address the Council on the
assessments. I thought someone would challenge another number, extension that I know. Okay. The
public hearing is closed. Comments from Council members, and actually Charles, what are you asking us
to do with this tonight?
Charles Folch: Well we're asking for an approval of assessment roll, as indicated. However, I do believe
that there may be, it may be of benefit to table action tonight for two weeks to allow staff to research the
issue with the Carlson and Beddor properties and then come back to you in two weeks with some answers
regarding that matter. Time wise, it should not affect our ability to levy assessments and certify them down
at the County.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any other comments from the commissioners?
Councilman Senn: That was going to be mine. That we should table it.
Mayor Mancino: Then let's have a motion to table.
Councilman Senn: I move to table.
Councilman Mason: Second.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table the assessment hearing for County
Road 17 Improvement Project 93-29 until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
AWARD OF BIDS: HOLLY LANE WATER QUALITY PROJECTS.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. You received a copy of the bids. Just to bring you up to date on where we
are on this project. Holly Lane was a project that was identified as a water quality project and working
over the last couple of years to try to secure a ponding easement. We were working under the assumption
that we could acquire a maintenance agreement, but the City Attorney advised us that this is a drainage
easement, not just a maintenance.., future date and jeopardize the project. What we're recommending...
homeowners in their mind being maybe overburdened. Having the pond on their property. And it is in
Shorewood. It will make the condemnation.., a little bit more difficult and also based on the fact that we're
trying to do projects proactively working where we're solving a problem and not doing.., project happened.
At this point we're requesting that you do reject the bids but stall would continue to pursue other options
related to the pond. We believe there may be other opportunities. There is a problem there. We do want to
solve it. It's a water quality project... We would request that you do reject the bids. We don't believe... If
we can't, then the project will go away...
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any questions for staff? Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: Kate, one thing I'm really disappointed about is that we've gone all the way to the
award of bids phase and spent a great deal of money on the project that we really should have had this stuff
locked up long before we ever spent the money. I hope we can make note of that so it doesn't happen
again. You know beyond that, you know my understanding of when this project went forward, this
property owner was, had already offered, had volunteered their property for the ponding. You know, if this
project is to go forward again through a new set of bids, once this is resolved, I think we need to look at
how we recoup some of that cost. And if it's going to go in another place, I think we also need to maybe
look at that issue. I really want to be supportive of the water quality project for Christmas Lake. It's a
pristine lake. I'd love to see it stay that way. I'd be very supportive of that but.., somehow do something
better here with our procedure so we don't get this far down the road and find out we haven't got a project.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, well we have a maintenance agreement for this land...
Mayor Mancino: So the property owner understands the difference and?
Kate Aanenson: And they're not comfortable...
Councilman Senn: I'm just curious, have we ever gotten them through a maintenance agreement before?
I mean I haven't heard of that. I mean where did that come from or where did the concept come from?
Roger Knutson: The only thing I can tell you with great assurance is not from me.
Kate Aanenson: It came from Gary Fuchs. That's who we've been working with on the project.
Mayor Mancino: What is a maintenance agreement?
Roger Knutson: In this context, I don't know.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Kate Aanenson: Phil was working with Gary and that's what Gary advised us to do and then after he left
he turned it over. I understand the...in good faith that's what we proposed and that's the way they
negotiated it.
Mayor Mancino: And that's why you went down.
Kate Aanenson: ...point is but.
Roger Knutson: As what was presented to me is he wanted an agreement for an easement for the pipe. Not
for the water. My point was, how can we.
Mayor Mancino: But the water goes through the pipe.
Roger Knutson: How can we, that's fine but what happens when the water gets out of the pipe. It's going
to pond on someone's property. You should have the right to keep it there.
Councilman Senn: I guess one of the points I'm kind of trying to come back to is if these bids are good
bids, I'm not sure we should simply reject the bids tonight but I think we should very clearly state our
position and then either things change to conform to our position or at that point we should maybe then
consider rejecting the bids. I hate to then just reject the bids now. Go back and negotiate and find out it
can be worked out through negotiation and then find out that this was the only way it's going to work. Or
has that been exhausted already?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Extremely.
Councilman Senn: Okay.
Roger Knutson: What I did explain, if you wanted to call the ponding easement a maintenance agreement
and then the text says it's a ponding easement in effect, that's fine. But you know we're not, that's not...
Kate Aanenson: No, we understand Roger's position. We've just got a different opinion of it. I'm not
trying to belabor that point but we were given it different so that's...
Councilman Senn: So our only choice at this point is to basically reject the bids and go back to square
one?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Because the homeowners don't want to do it, right. And I think that's right.
Mayor Mancino: If they change their mind and then okay. Thank you. There's nothing really, oh.
Councilman Berquist.
Councilman Berquist: One more question... Councilman Senn asked the same question I was going to ask.
How many homeowners, are we dealing with one homeowner as far as... Are there any other homeowners
that are directly affected by this project?
Kate Aanenson: Oh yes.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: And could it be put on another property?
Kate Aanenson: A half acre is large.., we're looking at is through Powers Boulevard. Two lots
potentially...
Councilman Berquist: So when this thing originally came up, as I remember...
Councilman Senn: Quite a few. That whole area I thought participated. In fact they...
Kate Aanenson: Well yeah, and it was identified as part of the Christmas Lake, and the whole association
also supported it because of the water quality of the entire lake. Not just the piping also benefitted but
what we're saying too is if it goes beyond that, then they actually have to... then it would become an
assessable project. We were just trying to... so there are some other issues up there as far as the affected...
Councilman Berquist: What's happening...what potential...
Kate Aanenson: Well if there's an easement, then we have a right to go in and clean it out and they felt like
that took away from their.
Councilman Berquist: A maintenance...
Kate Aanenson: There is a small wetland on the property but obviously...
Mayor Mancino: So we need to take no action on this?
Kate Aanenson: Well I guess what we're saying is, we have... They are not going to accept the easement.
What we're saying at this point, to change the.., change order. The cost of a change order is so much more.
It's better to... I'd like to table at this time but I think...change order.
Councilman Senn: Okay, so you want us basically to reject the bids at this time and that's it period.
Kate Aanenson: And we'll probably.., but again these projects are trying to be proactive. We're not
condemning people's properties...
Mayor Mancino: Can I have a motion please.
Councilman Berquist: I move to reject the bids and continue to pursue the project.
Mayor Mancino: Second?
Councilman Mason: Second.
Resolution #97-78: Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Mason seconded to reject the bids for
the Holly Lane Water Quality Project and to direct staff to continue to pursue the project. All voted
in favor and the motion carried.
APPEAL SIGN PERMIT CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL-PAWS~ CLAWS~ AND HOOVES;
NANCY LEE AND PATRICK BLOOD.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. We received a sign package from the applicant on August 25th. At that
time.., consistent with the sign ordinance which does require brick... They have come back and to work
with staff. They have come back with a plan that shows wood on the cover, and there's a copy of that in
your staff report. Staff was uncomfortable approving that because we got the message, the understanding
that you wanted to see brick. So we brought it back to you for your interpretation to see if this was...
What we have done is modify conditions if you did want to approve it as the applicant has shown with the
wood, or if you wanted to leave it the way it was, the conditions that you approved back on August 25th
would stand.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Questions?
Councilman Senn: In what we approved previously though, we approved a variance.
Kate Aanenson: There was a variance. They came in, they basically were given a smaller sign.
Councilman Senn: Right.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Senn: And as part of that variance, this was a condition.
Kate Aanenson: That is correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: So in this sign, in and of itself is a variance.
Councilman Senn: A variance. I understand that.
Mayor Mancino: Because it is not allowable.
Councilman Senn: But the point I'm trying to make is the condition with which we attach is the condition
of that variance.
Kate Aanenson: You have given them relief from the ordinance already.
Mayor Mancino: Twice. Once to have this. Secondly, the size of the sign.
Councilman Senn: So contrary to the most recent letter we have I think from their attorney, these are not
separate issues. This is a combined issue and if we are going to look at removing this condition, we can
also remove the variance?
Kate Aanenson: That's what I explained to their attorney. You've already given them relief.
Councilman Senn: Right. I just want to make sure I'm understanding.
Kate Aanenson: I haven't seen that letter.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: It's here. Right here Kate. There's copies here. Oh, isn't that it?
Mayor Mancino: We have one from William Griffith, Jr. Kate, one other question before we comment on
it. This is no different than the original one that we saw, not last City Council meeting but the City Council
before last, from what I can tell.
Kate Aanenson: The height isn't the same.
Mayor Mancino: They put the logo down and that's the difference. But they have not done anything to the
base. Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Except the pole covers are a little bit.
Mayor Mancino: They're a little what?
Mayor Mancino: I think these were wood too, or simulated wood. I don't even know. Is it real wood or is
it simulated wood?
Kate Aanenson: ...the material that's on there.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. We'll go forward with this very quickly. Is the applicant here? Would you like
to come up and address the Council? And you're also requesting that it be again 16 feet tall, instead of 15,
correct?
Nancy Lee: Yes. The reason for that was, per my letter, maybe I read you wrong but it did appear that
what you were trying to do was follow the highway district. Because we fit in the highway district,
however we're BF which wasn't specifically listed in that. So what we tried to do, we tried to make some
sense of it was to put ourselves in the Highway District and that's why we put that down that that's what
we would do. We were like in 69 square feet and we dropped it down to 64 square feet. Then you had
listed 15 feet in height and I know that the Highway District is 16 in height so, and that also addresses the
monument sign which is 64 square feet and 8 feet in height. I guess what I'd like to do is just kind of
briefly do this in some kind of an order. We're bringing back this application to you for final approval
with changes that we feel make.., compliance which is putting the wood covers over the pole covers to, in
terms of the pole covers as... Our main structure component is metal. You asked us not to use metal. Our
second main material is wood, that's why we adjusted this to the wood. This way it will match the building
and I guess that's our, the logo and everything that we're... I'm asking for you to consider my
suggestions...that I put in my letter.., dated September 11th of '97. And one is the Highway District
standards, which I just mentioned .... pole covers on the pylon sign. And then the third one was to have
your staff engineer review our monument sign location with us to approve it's site to the street and put a
street sight triangle regulation on it. And I guess if that's something that doesn't need to be there, I'd be
more than happy to meet with the city engineer to make sure that we're not sitting on private ground or
anything else like that but I don't want a stipulation on there that's going to make it hard to put up a sign
and really not be necessary to do that. The other thing is, and I don't know if this is important or not. That
40 foot from the property line keeps coming up and I keep saying it needs to be corrected. It is not 40 foot
from the property line, but it still, if it meets code.
Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry, repeat that again please Nancy?
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Nancy Lee: Staff keeps stating in their paperwork that our sign would be 40 foot from the property line
and 212. It is not going to be 40 foot.
Mayor Mancino: How many feet will it be?
Nancy Lee: I don't know exactly but it is I think closer. Is it 10 feet from the property line or something?
We are approximately I'd say 20-25 feet. Maybe more but that's my best guesstimate and where I think
this originally came in was the sign company has put an X in the retention pond. We clarified that the sign
will not go in the retention pond, but on the side, and I believe what happened then was staff measured to
scale where the center of the retention pond was and that's the 40 feet. So it's not the 40 feet but it still
would meet code. Like I said, I don't know if that's something I even need to bring up but I don't want to
see a problem.
Mayor Mancino: Sure. At some point down the road. Good idea. Now, isn't the sign going to be north of
the retention pond?
Nancy Lee: South.
Mayor Mancino: South, okay. So it will be on the south side between the road and the retention ponds?
Kate Aanenson: This is the minimum setback.., so we just want to make sure it's outside the wetland.
There's a delineated wetland too so.
Nancy Lee: Not on that end of the property. It's.
Kate Aanenson: Right, so if you're on that side, so we'd just make sure it would comply with the setbacks.
Mayor Mancino: Well I think we want you to make sure that it can't be in the wetland either.
Nancy Lee: Oh definitely, yeah. It wouldn't make sense for me to put one in the wetland...
Councilman Senn: So which is right?
Mayor Mancino: So we don't know.
Councilman Senn: You're saying that 40 feet is in error?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. That's what she's saying. All I'm saying is that, it has to be at least 10 feet from
the property line. Is there.., outside of the highway.., so we're just saying these setbacks need to be
covered.
Councilman Senn: But the location already approved for is on the other side of the wetland .... so
additionally, there's a request here to change the location of the sign?
Mayor Mancino: No. It's still the same location. It is just not 40 feet that's in our report. So it hasn't
changed location whatsoever. The 40 feet was never correct to begin with. Correct?
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Berquist: It has to be 10 feet from the property line...
Nancy Lee: We were going to go out and measure today but.
Mayor Mancino: Go ahead, I interrupted you.
Nancy Lee: The other thing I just want to touch base on were, she's got 14 conditions, or they've got 14
conditions added on. Number 3 says wall signs shall not be permitted. I guess we discussed this before
here. I'm just wondering why that option would be taken away from us. It may not be something we'd
utilize but I'd hate to have the option taken away. I don't know...
Mayor Mancino: I thought we made that very clear at the last meeting that one of the things that you were
asking for was taller signs and a bigger sign and therefore that is what we predicated it on. We will give
you the bigger sign, which is not allowable in that district, but not a wall sign because of that.
Nancy Lee: ... Then the other one, I've already addressed. It was number 12. Or no, I haven't addressed
this one. Number 12. Any changes to the signs must be reviewed by staff. Any significant alteration shall
be brought back to the Planning Commission. I don't know if this is considered significant. What we are
really looking for on TH 101 is going to be our logo. I know that the sign.., says Paws, Claws and Hooves.
What we want is our logo which also says that but has our little logo. It's just that little square piece on
the sign we've got now. I don't want to have to go through this whole process to put my logo up there. So
what, I guess what I'm asking is, is that considered a significant change? To allow us to put our logo there.
Mayor Mancino: That is something that staff decides and we actually do put this on most of our conditions
on signs, if there are alterations that staff feels is significant, that they will take it back to the Planning
Commission.
Councilman Senn: ... logo that's within the same sign area required.., as long as it's within the existing
sign area.
Mayor Mancino: Have you seen the design?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. And it's fine? Okay.
Nancy Lee: I already addressed the street sight triangle. Again, like I said, I'd be more than happy to meet
with the traffic engineer to make sure there's no problems. We don't want to... traffic either... And then
the last thing is 14. Again, a reference to the height. There is 212 frontage before our property line begins
so it's not like we're right up on 212. We are back from 212, unless staff is concerned the 40 feet is too
close to the property line but we are back quite a ways. That's why I was trying to make it match the
Highway District standards for monument signs. And I guess the reason we went with Highway District
standards signs is that appears that's what the City was kind of gearing towards, comparing us to Highway
5 and the other pylon signs in that district. Other than that I think, other than the fact that we are trying to
open real, real soon and we had all the paperwork turned in in May and it is now September. We should be
opening any day and we really need a sign up. We're a brand new company and it's really crucial for us.
We'd like to get approved and get our sign up.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Well you also still have some work to do on the site. The landscaping, etc. that was
supposed to be in.
Nancy Lee: A sign isn't built over night though. It's going to take several weeks. So by the time we're
able to get a sign up, this has been in the paperwork process for quite some time .... we turned everything
in the end of May. But by the time it's built we're going to be long open and.
Mayor Mancino: Well I think we did make a decision on it by August.
Nancy Lee: Last session. The 22nd.
Mayor Mancino: Two sessions ago. So that's, and you're asking to bring it back to change it.
Nancy Lee: Yeah, because brick was my only option given to me and I know you said if staff could
approve it, you'd be fine with that but staff was more comfortable coming to you. All I'm asking is that,
time is of essence. We felt like we've worked really hard with the City and we've really tried to do
everything the way the City would like but there are limits and...
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Comments from council members. Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: I don't know, I guess my thoughts are just... I mean my real thoughts are, and I've
expressed them before is we've already given more than enough variances.., add elements to renegotiate
this, there's a number of things I would renegotiate differently. More favorably and I really couldn't
support providing additional variances at this point.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Mason.
Councilman Mason: Am I assuming in this report that staff is at least comfortable with wood on the sign?
Now I didn't say was overjoyed.
Kate Aanenson: Actually we didn't make any decision. We said the direction of Council was brick. We
felt this deviated substantially from that, and wanted to bring it back in...we're on the fence on this one.
Councilman Mason: Well okay, was the fence wooded or was it? No, you know. I guess I'm going to go
back to a comment that Ladd Conrad made in the Planning Commission about things looking the same and
in relating to something else and that I, well. I think wood on that sign is fine. And I guess I think, I've
heard the comment from other Council people before that we need to take, as you know I'm kind of the
anti-variance king around here, whatever. And I think maybe, well nobody's ever accused me but I've been
told that we need to look at these things on an individual basis, or whatever. And I think making that be
brick with the rest of the building not look like that, quite honestly would look worse than having it be the
wood. For the sign. For the covers for the poles.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Berquist.
Councilman Berquist: Well I actually think, from my perspective, individually illuminated letters on the
building would have looked nice but insofar as that's not your choice and insofar as I can, you will
probably never, ever come back here because you'll be so sick of looking at us, I don't blame you. And
there comes a time when you acquiesce and put stuff behind you and go on with other things that are worth
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
while. I agree with what Councilman Mason has said. I don't have any significant problems with the wood
risers. I don't have any big problems with the 16 feet versus the 15 feet. I'm honestly to the point where
I'd like to get, I'd like to quit seeing this every month or so. I am discouraged when I see the sign drawings
submitted in May were not, we didn't act on them until two weeks ago. Although I know that the sign
ordinance, although I know from owning a business that sign ordinances can be very difficult to interpret.
Not only for business owners but also for the sign companies. And I know that the requirements can get
somewhat detailed. I'll support it.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Last and not least... (There was a tape change during Mayor Mancino's
discussion.) ... and that keeping coming back and asking for changes makes the process longer. So I don't
share in the responsibility of the added length of this process. So again I would not be in favor of the 16
feet in height. I'd go back to the 15 feet in height. I would be fine with a wood base with some design
alterations done. So a motion please.
Councilman Senn: I guess I'd just like to make one comment, ifI could. Wood bases on signs went out
years ago and there's a reason for it. The reason is they rot very quickly being adjacent to exposed to and
part of the ground.
Councilman Berquist: I think that's why there's a foot between the bottom of the pole and the top of the
riser.
Councilman Senn: You can't tell that one way or the other. So now you're going to have a wrap coming
down the pole and it's going to end before the bottom of the pole?
Councilman Berquist: Well that's what the drawing looked like to me. I looked at it as their way of
making certain, to assure that the bottom wood didn't rot off. The greens and plantings will certainly cover
that.
Mayor Mancino: So yes, it will eventually rot the bottom of the wood. I mean you're right.
Councilman Berquist: But less rapidly than what he.
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, that's true.
Councilman Mason: I will move approval of sign plan #97-1 with the 15, with item number 14 to stand.
And with staff and applicant to work out the minor revisions for the base.
Mayor Mancino: That is number 157
Councilman Mason: That would be number 15.
Mayor Mancino: Is there a second?
Councilman Berquist: Would a wood wrapper be an acceptable compromise?
Councilman Mason: I'm not going to, no. No, I don't want to lock it in.
Kate Aanenson: That's how we got here.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: Well wood wrapper isn't the base. I mean wood wrapper is the poles. I mean going
back to what she did a couple weeks ago. She asked that the base be put around the sign and that that base
be some kind of block or concrete that would be similar to what's on the building, if I remember correctly.
And that that constitutes a base and that should be incorporated in terms of a pole wrap or something.
Now you've lost the base totally and you're talking about a wood pole wrapper.
Councilman Berquist: That's correct.
Councilman Senn: Yeah. Okay.
Mayor Mancino: So Michael, state your last condition again about a pole wrap? Because I wouldn't vote
for.
Councilman Mason: I'd like to withdraw my motion and make a new one.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Mason: I would like to move approval of sign plan #97-1 with, that's the end of my motion.
With the wood being okay and the pylon sign shall be no more than 15 feet in height as stated in number
14.
Councilman Berquist: Second.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve Sign Plan #97-1 as shown on
plans dated July 18, 1997, revised September 11, 1997, with the following conditions:
1. Both buildings (commercial kennel and stable) shall share one monument sign. One monument sign
per lot. Monuments signage shall be subject to the monument standards in the sign ordinance.
2. Both buildings (commercial kennel and stable) shall share one pylon sign. One pylon sign per lot.
The sign shall be subject to the dimensions and location proposed by the applicant.
3. Wall signs shall not be permitted.
4. All signs require a separate permit.
5. The signage will have consistency throughout the development and add an architectural accent to the
building.
6. Consistency in signage shall relate to color, size, materials and heights.
7. No illuminated signs within the development may be viewed from the residential section north or west
of the site.
8. Individual letters may not exceed 2 feet and logos may not exceed 30 inches in height.
9. Only the name and logo of the business occupying the unit will be permitted on the sign.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
10.
The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting the signs on site. A detailed sign plan
incorporating the method of lighting, acceptable to staff should be provided prior to requesting a sign
permit.
11. These conditions shall be recorded with Carver County and added as an addendum to the site plan
agreement. Staff will prepare the agreement which must be signed by the applicant.
12. Any changes in the sign band must be reviewed by staff. Any significant alteration shall be brought
back to the Planning Commission.
13. Street sight triangle regulations shall apply to the monument sign location on the intersection of the
private driveway and TH 101.
14.
That the pylon sign shall be no more than 15 feet in height. The signage is 64 square feet and that
the base be redesigned so that the structural supports are not exposed. The coverage should be
architecturally and aesthetically designed to match the building.
Councilman Mason and Councilman Berquist voted in favor. Mayor Mancino and Councilman Senn
voted in opposition. The motion failed with a tie vote of 2 to 2.
Mayor Mancino: So two yea's and two no's. It does not pass. Next item on the agenda.
VILLAGES ON THE PONDS DEVELOPMENT, NORTHEAST CORNER OF HIGHWAY 5
AND GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD, LOTUS REALTY SERVICES:
A. FINAL PLAT/REPLAT OUTLOT C INTO TWO LOTS.
B. SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 14,848 SQ. FT. RETAIL BUILDING.
C. APPROVE ADDENDUM "A" TO DEVELOPMENT CONTRACT/PUD AGREEMENT.
Bob Generous: Thank you Madam Mayor, Council members. This is a three part request tonight. It's the
final plat for approval for Outlot C into two lots, 1 and 2 and Outlot A... 2nd Addition. A site plan review
for Lot 2, Block 1, Villages on the Pond 2nd for an 18,849 square foot commercial building. This parcel is
located in the northeast comer of Villages on the Pond. It's on the west side of Great Plains Boulevard and
south of Highway 5. It is the gateway to the Villages project from the northeast. The design of the
building is such to appear to be three separate buildings. It's similar to the old downtown... One building
has a vinyl siding, the other stucco and the third has the brick siding. Two of the elevations have sloped
roof and the third, the middle one has a cornice flat treatment. The only real issue that we had with the
design was really an interpretation of the Villages on the Pond design standards that 70% of the roof area
had to be sloped. The Planning Commission felt that the way this building is being presented, met the
intent of that ordinance and so we're recommending approval of the site plan as shown. Staff is still
looking for interpretation... Council whether or not... It would appear to be 70%... but it would actually be
6.
Mayor Mancino: Perception and actual.
Bob Generous: Yes. So staff, we believe in your packet you did receive an 8 ½ x 11 copy of how they
intend to provide the screening at the end of the north side of the parking lot. This landscaping actually
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
shows up within the Villages on the Pond's landscaping scheme rather than on the individual site plan. It
does provide some views from Highway 5 and we believe it meets the intent of the ordinance and also the
conditions that we have in the staff report. Staff is recommending approval of the site plan for Building #4.
And finally there.., an amendment on Addendum ~A" to the development contract which incorporates the
conditions of Villages on the Pond 2nd Addition. With that I'd be happy to answer any questions.
Mayor Mancino: So Council members, any questions? Bob, on the overall comprehensive landscaping
plan. How is the, on the south side of this Building #4, how is the parking lot being screened from the
street?
Bob Generous: It is with some boulevard trees on the south end, in the driveway. And then potential,
there's a patio type area up above that retail building.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Next to the sidewalk?
Bob Generous: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: I'll ask more to the applicant about that. The 70% roof. I saw where the Planning
Commission said a site plan, each site plan they'll make, they'll decide, correct?
Bob Generous: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: How do you feel with that? How comfortable do you feel with that? Does that mean
you're going to be going into definitions all the time on every site plan that comes up or?
Kate Aanenson: Well the 70% rule, what we're trying to do if continue the flavor of the pitched roof that
we have downtown.., as we've done buildings based on the massing and size. We spent a lot of time
internally looking at those districts. If you look at lots in this area, right here. Excelsior, Wayzata. A lot
of them do have flat roofs. If you see the newer construction that has come in, there is pitched roofs.
There are parts of the country based on snowload that do have a lot more pitched roofs. I guess what we'd
like to see the pitched roof element. We think that maintains the integrity of what we're trying to do. But I
guess what we felt on, maybe you have to look more at the design of the building itself and we feel
comfortable if they can make some compelling argument, that the 70% doesn't apply, that we're willing to
look at that. Certainly that's our goal to have pitched... In some circumstances it's going to...to try to do
that. I think they came in with a pretty intriguing.., as you saw in the other office building when they've
got the other, or actually the pitch is such that it's not completely enclosed but it gives the perception. I
think that's hopefully what...
Mayor Mancino: Okay. You know what would be helpful for me when you present again to the Council,
other projects that we have okayed. Renderings. Color renderings that we have okayed, to have them here.
You know out so we can see because that pulls us into the whole
Kate Aanenson: ... but we've got that, of all the buildings in town so if you want.
Mayor Mancino: But especially in Villages on the Ponds so as we go from one building to the other, and if
we are going to be making some, which is fine with me, some.
Kate Aanenson: It's relief from the ordinance. We think it maybe...
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: That makes sense to have the flat here or whatever, okay. Great. Any other questions at
this time? Would the applicant like to approach the City Council?
Vernelle Clayton: Thank you. As you know I'm Vernelle Clayton and I'm happy to be here tonight to talk
about another building that we're proud of. However, the Planning Commission decided that they would
take the plat first and then the site plan. Is that what your plan is too?
Mayor Mancino: Yes. That would be fine.
Vernelle Clayton: I will talk first to that.
Mayor Mancino: If you've already done that before.
Vemelle Clayton: Yeah. I think I can handle it again. We don't have any objections to any of the
conditions except that when we were with the Planning Commission I asked to defer a response to item
number one because we had at that point not had a chance to talk to any of the representatives from St.
Hubert's and I was quite sure that they would feel that it would impact them given that they are in dialogue
and have had meetings with staff and have also brought the issue to the attention of Council back in
December. The fact that there is a great deal of perceived agreement already as to the handling of Outlot L
and it was my feeling that St. Hubert's would feel that if we acquiesced without at least bringing it to your
attention to this request for a condition, that St. Hubert's would feel that we have somehow or another side
stepped that issue for them. AUSMAR itself is not directly involved except as a facilitator. AUSMAR
would not benefit one way or the other. It doesn't make any difference to AUSMAR if there is nothing that
can be developed on that land. But it makes a great deal of difference to St. Hubert's and, that issue. Not
so much whether, the fact that we might do something that would preclude their continuing dialogue is my
concern. I talked to Don just before the meeting because I know that Dave Pokorney was trying to get a
hold of him last week and Don was gone. Dave Pokomey who is the City Administrator for the City of
Chaska, as you probably all know, is the one that's been heading up the Building Committee for St.
Hubert's and therefore this issue. He is here tonight. I see that Don is away at the moment but what I
suggested to Don was that I was going to ask that item number one be deleted tonight as a condition of
approval of this plat, given that we will be having several more plats before the project is completed. And
therefore I don't think that you would be, as a Council or the City, would be at any disadvantage in waiting
for another plat. Now I think if you have questions, you might, is Don coming back or?
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, I'm assuming he does and you do have, sure. That'd be a good idea.
Kate Aanenson: ... really we don't want to put it... address before we get too far down the road.
Mayor Mancino: But we also have a legal rendering from Roger that we all received from the Minutes of
the conditions from the City Council on the final plat for Villages on the Pond. So we do have that. I don't
now if it's in our packet tonight but I know that I have a letter from our legal counsel on that outlot and
what the City Council requested.
Kate Aanenson: It's not in the packet tonight.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vernelle Clayton: With the conditions of approval of the overall plat, that all outlots have a conservation
easement. At the time.
Mayor Mancino: No, just this one. If the trail could be moved to the north, then the leftover on this outlot
would be a conservation easement. I mean I'm sorry Vernelle. I don't have the.
Vemelle Clayton: They asked them for others too. Maybe I misspoke. I'm saying all because probably
not the street but.
Kate Aanenson: A drainage easement, not a trail easement.
Vernelle Clayton: But Outlot H I think you wanted a conservation easement over too.
Kate Aanenson: I think it's a drainage easement...
Vernelle Clayton: Well in any event, Don is back and Don is the one that's been having dialogue with
Dave and I don't know if you would like to address this issue Don or if you would like to have Dave
Pokorney come and talk with you a little bit. I'm sure he'd be willing to.
Don Ashworth: I guess since Dave is really more familiar with the background and really kind of had
initiated the discussions with me, it'd probably be a little better for him to summarize how we got to where
we got to.
Mayor Mancino: Well also we do have a letter addressed to the City Council from Roger on this particular
conservation easement and we do have a copy of it in my office and you took right from the Minutes of the
conditions of approval for the final plat for Villages on the Pond. So I think that we need to enter that into
evidence too, but I don't think we have that tonight.
Dave Pokorney: Mrs. Mayor.
Mayor Mancino: Would you state your name and address please.
Dave Pokorney: I'm Dave Pokorney. I'm on the Building Committee at St. Hubert's. I'm not the City
Administrator in Chanhassen, or in Chaska. Not tonight at least.
Mayor Mancino: You look like him.
Dave Pokorney: My main mission in life is building churches.
Councilman Senn: Can we talk about hockey first?
Dave Pokorney: And notice I was trying to avoid that one too.
Mayor Mancino: You're a renaissance man.
Dave Pokorney: The church though, we don't disagree that one of the conditions is Outlot, is it L now?
Was going to be, end up being public control. Whether it's a conservation easement or just outright
dedication. The issue though, if you go back to when the first plat was being considered and when St.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Hubert's site plan was being considered. I think the sole issue really with that whole project was what was
going to happen with the %occer field". And the church's original plan was to construct a soccer field on
this outlot as kind of a detached facility and your Parks Commission recommended that we not do that and
that we relook at the site plan, which we did. And what we ended up doing was redefining the grading and
moving to create kind of a soccer field on the north side of the trail. In doing that, we agreed that the 2.2
acres which we, well we paid the same price with or without the 2.2 acres. That we would, we or the
Ward's would donate that to the City. We also agreed, and let me step back. The letter that I passed out is
the letter that we distributed the night of approval of the final site plan for the church. And at least we left
assuming that that was the agreement. And so the first thing we agreed that is either St. Hubert's or the
Ward's would donate the 2.2 acres, or place a conservation easement on it. That we would also pay
$16,000.00 in park and trails fees as part of the plat, which was paid. And then at the time that the church
came in for a building permit, as long as we continued to build our park on our site, we would not be
required to pay additional park and playground fees. And then lastly the Ward's would be granted future
parkland credits up to $90,000.00 which would be credited against their future platting fees. And so that
as you have plats like you'd be having tonight, they would not be required to pay 100%, however they'd be
given credits for this outlot. The one change, okay. Then after that meeting we went back and renegotiated
our agreement with the Ward's. We made two changes. One change was that we agreed to pay any added
cost in the public improvements that would result in moving the soccer field to the north, and there were
considerable costs associated with that. And secondly we agreed that any credits that the AUSMAR or the
Ward's would gain from future parkland credits as a result of dedicating this particular outlot would be
credited to the church. So the $90,000.00 would come back as a reduction in our public improvement
costs. So if you take action tonight requiring that to be dedicated, and then require AUSMAR to pay 100%
of the parkland fees, it would be inconsistent with at least what we felt the agreement was back in
December of 1996 and also would result in the church losing $90,000.00 under our purchase agreement.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Dave Pokorney: And I guess the question we would have is, if that's not the agreement, then we wonder
what the agreement was back in December of 1996 because, and as you all recall, this was, I think I'm
correct in stating it was the only issue and it actually, we continued the site plan to allow us to go back and
work out this agreement with the staff and with the Ward's which the church did do and then came back
and got the site plan approved.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions for Mr. Pokorney?
Minutes and research this to some degree. Let's go ahead.
subdivision?
I think we're going to have to look at some
Are there any other questions on the
Vernelle Clayton: I don't have any other comments.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Berquist: Do you remember the date of that meeting? This letter was written after that. Was
it not? I think it was.
Councilman Senn: Where's the Minutes?
Dave Pokorney: Well I think this was written, this letter was available to the Council the night of the final
site plan approval.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Berquist: Was it?
Dave Pokorney: I think. Again, I don't recall the exact dates in '96 but this, what happened was that this
came to the City Council for final site plan approval. It was continued for two weeks to go and work this
out, which is what happened in that, between two different meetings. And the exact dates of those meetings
I don't recall.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Senn: I find it really difficult to even look at this or address this without the Minutes from the
meetings at that time in front of us and everything else.
Mayor Mancino: I do too.
Councilman Senn: I propose to table this element until next meeting when we can have that.
Mayor Mancino: I agree. Michael.
Councilman Mason: Well yeah. I mean we need to check it out.
Mayor Mancino: So we will go ahead and table this until the next meeting when we can have all the
information before us. The Minutes, etc.
Roger Knutson: Just a question of the applicant. You're not proposing to start construction on anything
shortly are you? They have to get the final plat approval before they can do anything else.
Councilman Senn: Well, there's not much you can do about it.
Vernelle Clayton: It probably won't make any difference if you table the whole thing. We were hoping to
do it along with Famous Dave's and that will be in October. We'll be, hopefully bringing something back
to you in October. What is the next meeting that you're contemplating for this?
Mayor Mancino: Second Monday in October.
Vemelle Clayton: I think that will be fine. Otherwise I would say you could delete number 1 for the
moment but I think that's fine.
Mayor Mancino: Does that work for you, so that we can have everything together. October 13th and we
have time?
Kate Aanenson: You're looking for documentation of this?
Councilman Senn: Yeah. I mean there were very specific discussions at those meetings and I'm assuming
the Minutes will be very detailed and reflect the discussions.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: And I think it means a lot to the Ward's, the church and the parties involved so we want
to make sure that we have all the information we can and review the Minutes. So may I have a motion
please.
Councilman Berquist: Move to table.
Councilman Senn: Second.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. All those in favor of tabling the final plat approval for Outlot C into Lots 1
and 2, Block 1 and Outlot A, Villages on the Pond 2nd Addition. And the site plan. We might as well do.
Vernelle Clayton: You're going to table the site plan too? I wonder if we could.
Mayor Mancino: Do you want to go ahead and proceed?
Vernelle Clayton: I would really like to because it would save Mika a trip from San Diego.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, that's fine. All those signify by saying aye.
Councilman Senn: Whoops, what are we doing?
Mayor Mancino: So what we are doing is tabling the final plat approval for Outlot C into Lots 1 and 2.
Roger Knutson: A and C I would assume.
Kate Aanenson: You have to table C also.
Councilman Senn: Items A and C, okay.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. A second?
Councilman Senn: It was seconded.
Mayor Mancino: I want to make sure we all know what it is. A and C.
Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Senn seconded to table the final plat and replat of Outlot C
for Villages on the Ponds and the Addendum "A" to the Development Contract/PUD Agreement
until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Mancino: Then we will go onto site plan.
Vernelle Clayton: I think I will talk about a couple of things perhaps, and kind of clean up but initially I
just would like to introduce Mika Milo to come forward and talk about the building itself.
Mika Milo: City Council and Mrs. Mayor. It's a pleasure for me to present this design for a building #4
which is our second building that we are proposing in short period of time for the Villages. One is from the
south end. It was the office building just a few weeks ago and now at this time we are talking on the north
end of the Village, near TH 5 and Great Plains Boulevard would be the retail building. And you have
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
received the material and you are hopefully... I would like just to highlight some points regarding that
building. As I said in my comments that the idea from the very beginning, from the onset was that we don't
want to produce a retail building that is a typical suburban retail building. All the same from one end to
the other end. We decided, even though that building is not directly on the main street, that we would that
our main street starts with that building even though it is... and so we conceptualized that building more of
a main street concept building. Retail building, which is more in the historical main street. Consists of
segmented smaller buildings and so we decided that building to compose additionally which looks like.., so
that even the materials, the roof and everything is a fairly different and so it does blend together but still is
distinguishable three segments of the building. Three different buildings. It looks like.., somebody came
and over time developed one piece and then another and the.., over the time. So that was the main idea and
that was the philosophical approach was the base of that design that emerged here. And not only the
building forms are different in these three segments of the building but also the materials and colors. As
you see on the building mostly facing the north end, which is facing the freeway. The building is proposed
to be in essence a stucco building. The middle portion, and with a sloped roof. The middle portion, a
building to be a flat roof building. Like many here in Midwestern cities and with brick or a block, I think
the decision of the Planning Commission and our presentation.., will be brick. Brick building in the middle
and then on the southern portion we would have a wood siding that will be covered with a solid stain color.
The base of that building on the south we are proposing to have in the river rock type of stone. This is a
stone that is produced artificially.., with the iron type of tracings and.., so that it is very hard to distinguish
from the real river rock. And however it is much lighter and it is, the cost of the application is
approximately a quarter.., natural stone if you don't mind I would like to pass that picture around...
Councilman Berquist: Does it have the same durability?
Mika Milo: Same durability. The same, it is a cement product and the colors do not fade. There is a...
Mayor Mancino: And this is also going to be on the trash enclosure for the outside? That would make a
great trash enclosure.
Mika Milo: The trash enclosure is already looking like office.., building a trash enclosure that looks like a
huge building but that would be maybe too much. But in any case, I was showing the cover on the slope
roof we are proposing is being standing seam metal. However, I already said that the Planning
Commission and I would like to repeat here, I really think that we should go on the southern portion of that
where we have the wood siding, replace that shown standing seam sheet metal roof. Replace it with the
asphalt shakes so that that part of the building becomes even more different than the northern portion. I
think it would work rather well with the residential feel of that wood siding that we have on that building.
So maybe we can have it like that but if you in condition would allow us to include language that that roof
can be replaced with the asphalt shingles.., help to really break the building into three... The brick is being
produced, not only the middle building but also the base of that northern building, which can be either brick
or a brick tile. Possibly the tile or brick. As you have noticed, there is a feature here on the northern face
of the building made entirely of that north building.
Mayor Mancino: That faces Highway 5, correct?
Mika Milo: That is facing Highway 5 is the...form of a silo. Farm architecture which I think is very
inspiring and real high quality architecture. And I think that it becomes reminiscent, reminiscence can be
repeated in... architecture and should be inspired and we felt, I felt inspired from that. When I proposed
that to happen and this is all glass silo. All glass. It's not really silo... It's all glass...probably some tinted
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
glass and.., building has more considering the tenants that are going to be there, we are thinking to go a
little more of the residential feel and warm feel. With patios and possibly little terraces so it looks like
there's going to be some kind of food... Vernelle can tell you a little more information about this prospect.
This is probably all that I can say in the first shot about the building elevations design concept. Are there
any questions? Oh, I forgot to mention the process of their design.., we worked closely with Kate and Bob
and we have a number of solutions.., and then develop that. Thank you Vernelle for bringing... The
building on the north is that dark color brick of the building on the north. This is the middle building and
the southern building... The southern building is either wood siding, have two different colors. One is
lighter wood siding and the darker from the street. The color right now proposed... And down below in
general, what you see is pretty strong colors and the very lightly colors of the awnings. The reason we are
doing that is.
Mayor Mancino: In the awnings? Okay. That's fun.
Mika Milo: The building colors are rather.., subdued and more like the background, but the awnings,
instead of doing the bright colors on the building.., we decided the buildings keep more of the subdued
and... The north building we are proposing.., retailers normally like clear glass, but also they accept
occasionally.., very nice to have the silo have the light green glass. The stucco will be painted with the
darker.., and then we would have down below we are proposing the.., and the middle building would see
the.., brick with the stucco or... The building that is facing the parking is the same way facing the street so
the building is.
Mayor Mancino: Has two fronts?
Mika Milo: Has two fronts. Both the street and the parking and those are matching so that you see...
Mayor Mancino: Will there be awnings on the west, on the east side?
Mika Milo: This is the east side elevation facing the Great Plains Boulevard. Obviously the same awnings
that you see here are applied on the other side. Also on the street and they are some different awnings but
they are also placed also. So there is no second phase here or back side or anything on any of these
buildings. All four sides are highly emphasized and these will not be the least expensive building, I can tell
you.
Mayor Mancino: So they're going to cost a lot to rent.
Vernelle Clayton: I just thought while you're standing up... Was this in your packet? The trash
enclosure.
Mayor Mancino: Did it say something about, oh yes. I think it was but it wasn't, there wasn't a color
rendering so we really couldn't tell what it was.
Vernelle Clayton: ... handing out. One of the reasons I should tell you that I was handing out the trash
enclosure is that there's an issue, there's a question with respect to landscaping relating to the trash
enclosure that will come up when we talk about landscaping. Basically the trash enclosure is a covered.
Mayor Mancino: Where is it on the parking lot?
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vernelle Clayton: It's really hard to remember that the camera is on that.
Mayor Mancino: Just give us the site location of it. It's right in the middle?
Vemelle Clayton: Right.
Kate Aanenson: She's going to tell you why.
Vernelle Clayton: So far I think everyone agrees that although at first blush having a trash enclosure in
the middle of a parking lot might not seem ideal. Given this site, we couldn't come up with a better idea.
We didn't really want it on Highway 5, so the first thing people would see would be a trash enclosure. We
didn't want it on this side of the building because this is what people would see as they're walking from...
across the boardwalk and coming up here. And there isn't room on the south side of this building or on that
side of the building. We really weren't left with any alternatives. And so I dug out my pictures from
Celebration and said Bob, look. Here's what they do in Celebration and we said well, it's probably a
solution.
Councilman Senn: So you're going to put, effectively that's the restaurant's dumpster too?
Vemelle Clayton: Yes.
Councilman Senn: So you're going to have a sanitized dumpster in there and grease storage and
everything?
Kate Aanenson: We've got that other places in town where it's not attached to the building. Taco Bell on
West 78th.
Mayor Mancino: And it looks terrible.
Kate Aanenson: This one's got more landscaping. The problem is if you want to maintain the integrity of
the sides of that building with the awnings, you really compromise it. We spent a lot of time working that
out.
Mayor Mancino: I can understand.
Kate Aanenson: ...the building. And same with the other restaurant. What we tried to do here is really
make it, the buildings themselves make the statement. By putting that appendage on it, it didn't work with
the awnings and everything else with what we're trying to do so I think they've come up with a pretty good
idea. I'll let Vernelle... looking at what other communities have done with newer, ... put a roof on... best
solution.
Councilman Senn: Well it's a little hard to judge without the elevations of that restaurant.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah. As far as?
Councilman Senn: I mean when you say this is the best place to put it, I mean I don't even know what the
south elevation of the restaurant's going to look like. I mean as to whether it would handle an inner
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
building you know, or effectively a trash enclosure that would be built effectively as part of the building or
whatever.
Kate Aanenson: ... decided that they would go... patio side.
Vernelle Clayton: The patio side is the north side though.
Councilman Senn: What's on the south side?
Vernelle Clayton: The kitchen. But the problem is, that's also sort of the front door to everyone walking
up from the core of the village.
Kate Aanenson: You'd be walking right past it which again we didn't think that was the best presence.
Mayor Mancino: Vernelle my concern is, and I'm not saying yes or not at this point because I understand
logistically where does it go, but you know Celebration works and anything that Disney does works well
because they're there in 5 minutes and they clean up any weed they find. I mean if you go to Disneyland,
why does everybody go there? Because the aesthetics. The cleanliness. They pay attention to detail, etc.
and that's why you can do things in the Disney operations as far as I'm concerned. There is nothing that
isn't just well manicured and well kept. The dumpsters, you know the dumpster sites in most cities aren't
like that so my concern is, you know what's going to happen when a door's left open. When you know the
trash people pick it up and don't quite get all the trash and it's around in the parking lot. That's, my
concern is actually maintenance and how practical that really will be for you.
Vernelle Clayton: I'm not sure though it would be any different if it's here or if it's attached to a building.
I've seen at those buildings in town that have it basically attached. I've seen the same thing happen.
Kate Aanenson: I guess we struggled with that same issue. I don't think.., different. Actually Wendy's is
the same situation where it's not attached. Obviously spatially this is further apart but.
Vernelle Clayton: Wendy's the Edina building share.
Kate Aanenson: Sure, and they have their type of, one's got... We struggled with it a lot. I mean you have
to kind of... explore some other options. I guess we've looked into that.
Vernelle Clayton: What we'll do so we can get all four of the various types of containers is where you see
a line drawn through there, there won't be one so you can have all four and we'll just have to have maybe
daily pick-ups if we have to but we'll grease, cardboard, recyclables and trash.
Councilman Senn: What's your largest container going to be? A two or a four or what?
Vemelle Clayton: Oh, it would have to be more than a two.
Councilman Senn: More than a four?
Vemelle Clayton: Maybe not. But where's room for, this is two car widths so there would be room.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: I mean you get any bigger than a four, they can't roll them out so I mean you have to
have a set-up where they can actually drive in and get them.
Vernelle Clayton: Well that's why we'd have two and two.
Mika Milo: There won't be... and it rolls out.
Councilman Senn: So they're four's now?
Mika Milo: I would really not be happy with that if that was, I would be really concerned if the trash
enclosure was in the middle of the parking lane, sitting there in the parking, but I think the landscape...
make it much more acceptable so I'm willing...
Councilman Senn: Is that as planted or how many years from now? Is that as planted or how many years
from now?
Mika Milo: It doesn't need to be very high. 3-4 feet tall so, I mean 4 or 5 feet of a hedge really more
looking...
Councilman Senn: And what are you using? Some kind of a finer arborvitae or what?
Vernelle Clayton: We had, in talking with our landscaper, he prefers this scenario with, and I told you I
was going to come back to this with a question relating to landscaping. Without the benefit of having seen
this staff suggested that we add a couple trees. In all fairness they hadn't seen this when they made that
recommendation. The Planning Commission discussed it a little. I think Peterson said that he would prefer
to see the hedge. We said we didn't care if you had 2 trees or the hedge but I guess our landscaper thinks
that there would be more, there's a greater likelihood of the hedges growing to the density that you'd need
to screen it without the trees than with them there.
Councilman Senn: Well what I'm trying to get at is what kind of a hedge are you talking about? One
that's going to be there 3 months or 4 months of the year or one that's going to be there 12 months of the
year?
Mayor Mancino: An arborvitae.
Councilman Senn: I mean if you're keeping this whole proposal on landscaping, I mean effectively that's
the kind of detail I guess I would expect to see because if you're talking about formal.., it isn't going to be
there.
Vernelle Clayton: I understand. We got a little derailed, our landscape architect got a little bit derailed on
this issue because he saw the condition and then changed his plan to put the two trees in and so we brought
it to the Planning Commission and say hey. We don't care. We'll do this or we'll do your two trees, and
we're still taking the same position where we're perfectly willing to put an evergreen type hedge here.
Kate Aanenson: I guess the reason we suggested the trees, from staff's perspective, is it would reduce the
heat there. It also creates kind of a different environment to get away from kind of focusing on that site
also. In the summer it's going to heat up and we thought that would help with that environment. You can
use the combination of, one to screen and one to provide a different climate.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: You don't have any other overstory trees in the other island areas or anything in the
parking lot?
Kate Aanenson: No we do .... it's in our rule, an island require overstory trees so we just wanted to make
that...
Mika Milo's statement was not picked up by the tape.
Vemelle Clayton: Well, only if we adjust the parking which we don't want to do. It'd have to be.
Councilman Senn: Well I don't know. I mean if, Vemelle I mean unfortunately hadn't witnessed situations
like this before with that out in the parking lot and I know what it is and I know what it becomes and it's, it
detracts from everything unfortunately ultimately. And I wish you could say you control it but you don't. I
mean your tenants are going to control it.
Vemelle Clayton: No they won't. The Association will control it. The Association that will be
controlling everything up and down main street. I mean they're going to have to, we're not going to be
having a landscaping company out there. We're going to have a gardener out there so, I mean it's not
typical. You want a job?
Mayor Mancino: Kate, could you just look at one other site for a minute and that would be, as I'm looking
at this, right up here on this comer where it says Parking Lot 20. And you put this building on here so that
the back and the side.
Vemelle Clayton: In Parking Lot 20.
Mayor Mancino: Yes, right there. Well no, hold on. Just listen for a minute. Yes. It would be you know
near the wetlands but what you would see from Highway 5 would be this with arborvitae all the way you
know, 5-6 feet tall. So you would see a little bit of roof line. A little bit of vent. Maybe actually there
could be something else on the roof to give it a little detail there. And you could also see it on the side.
You know I don't know if you put it this way, that's what you would see coming east and the side would be
again completely you know arborvitaes here and this is what you'd see, only one place in the parking lot
and it would be right up here on the comer.
Kate Aanenson: That was our original.., but we discounted that for public... Looking straight from
Highway 5, taking away the restaurant's half.., and we wanted to make the building...
Mayor Mancino: Well you still have this view corridor. You have this view corridor. You have this view
corridor. There's one little area here. I mean how big is this trash and how tall is it?
Kate Aanenson: I guess we thought putting it further back into the site...this is between the two. I mean
you're right. It could go there. I guess we thought we'd rather have the nice looking building... We had it
on there originally but this is what they came back with too. It could be done landscaped but I guess we
wanted to look at the...
Vemelle Clayton: The problem though...the trash comes out this door and that was one of the reasons.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry, the traffic's going to what?
Vernelle Clayton: The trash will come out this door...
Mayor Mancino: Excuse me. Our City Manager has a question for us.
Don Ashworth: It's not really a question. I'd like the City Council to think about, behind Pauly/Pony/
Przymus we really didn't have an alternative spot so we did exactly the same thing. We put the trash
container thing kind of in that island back there. To the best of my knowledge in all the years that those
two restaurants operated and the three residential pieces, I don't know of any complaint that we ever had
about doors being left open. Trash being out. Quite frankly I don't think anybody even knew the trash
container was there. And it's huge. I mean it's a big roll in and out type. You could drive over there when
it was open. I don't think you ever knew it was there.
Mayor Mancino: Well I'm not going to name the companies where I've seen it open and it is not pleasing
but, around town.
Mika Milo: Probably you.., maintenance issue. Wherever you put it, if you don't maintain really...
Mayor Mancino: Vernelle, when they take garbage out of the restaurant there, how do they do it? I mean
they have to walk with garbage bags?
Vernelle Clayton: Yes. That's what they do.
Mayor Mancino: No I mean, I was just trying to figure out the big deal about going from you know, from
one end of the building to the other or right in the middle of the parking lot. You're just saying you wanted
their trip to be shorter. I didn't know if there was some other.
Vernelle Clayton: The longer it is, the less likely that the trash is going to get here. It's going to sit out
there in back for a little while if it's real cold some night or raining or whatever, or until the other kid
comes so the first one doesn't have to do it.
Mayor Mancino: I'm still not convinced of that placement. Any other questions for Mika or Vernelle on
the site plan?
Councilman Mason: What were the comments from the Planning Commission about the trash enclosure
there?
Vernelle Clayton: I think that initially a couple of them were a little skeptical and they decided that yeah, I
see what you mean sort of thing. There's not a better place. That was kind of the consensus of everybody.
Councilman Senn: But isn't this going to be a recurring problem throughout the development?
Vemelle Clayton: Well, some of them will have basements and will have the trash in the basements.
Mayor Mancino: Underground parking.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vernelle Clayton: There are two situations that are alike. There's not going to be another situation where
they're along TH 5 for example.
Councilman Senn: No, but you're going to be where your buildings have basically fronts and backs to two
streets.
Vernelle Clayton:
in the basements.
two to the trash.
True, and most of those, we're hoping that most of those will have trash dumpster areas
The core area will have parking lots. Underground parking and we'll devote a stall or
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, you could elongate the restaurant and you know put trash inside.
Councilman Senn: Well I mean that's the typical solution I'm used to seeing is you build it into the
building.
Vernelle Clayton: I don't think we have any like that here in Chanhassen.
Councilman Senn: Well I know we don't but we don't have anything like Villages on the Ponds in
Chanhassen. I mean you're creating a new concept with fronts all over the place and facing everything.
Maybe we ought to be looking at incorporating the trash into the buildings.
Vernelle Clayton: I misspoke. We do have one, and the people have asked that they take it out. Have it
outside. Ridgeview has it in the office building and now Ridgeview Medical needs the space so they've
asked that they convert it to useable space. But that's not the most attractive situation either because then
you have a building that all of a sudden has this, these two doors that have to open up.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, this building's a three sided building where you really have a presence view. Three
sides...
Councilman Senn: Which building now, the big one or the little one?
Kate Aanenson: The big one. The restaurant obviously...
Vemelle Clayton: Yeah, putting this in this building would not solve the problem here and here we really
don't have a place where he could drive a truck right up to the building. Yeah, the silo. You could just fill
it up.
Councilman Mason: I think we're spending a lot of time on trash enclosures, and I guess my feeling about
that is, staff seems to think it's the best place for it. The architect and the developers think it's the best
place for it, and the Planning Commission thought it was the best place for it so I'm okay with where it is.
Mayor Mancino: Any other comments or questions?
Vernelle Clayton: We haven't talked about landscaping specifically. If you have any questions about that,
we'll be happy to answer it.
Mayor Mancino: Do you want to go over that with us and kind of overall. On the wetlands and then on the
outside of the trash. Make it look like something other than a trash thing, and put a little.., smell very well.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Kate Aanenson: Like a little gazebo?
Mayor Mancino: Not a gazebo but just a little fetes and feeding area. So if you get a bad woof.
Vemelle Clayton: You want an eating around...
Kate Aanenson: No, by the wetlands.
Mayor Mancino: Just being funny.
Vemelle Clayton: The landscaping plans...the trees are placed here in accordance with the.., and we have
over here, which is a question that is... these are the same trees as were.., and the overall landscaping plan
for a project which was... This happens to be that comer. Trying to compare exactly, it was a little bit
different than the plans that we approved for the overall project because we changed the parking lot.., show
anything here because it's on the overall plan. Now we've shown some.
Mayor Mancino: Conceptually Vemelle, are we going to, one of the things that we had talked about overall
in the comprehensive landscaping plan was making sure that from Highway 5, etc. that we made a hedge
wall around the parking. And that would kind of define areas also.
Vemelle Clayton: I've been thinking about... I'm not sure that I was relating it to Highway 5. Specifically
I think the language says that parking lots shall be shielded by hedges as much as possible. This really...
Highway 5 too much because.., which we did discuss specifically at the other comer and...
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So it should be somewhat, okay. And what about internally in here? Are there
going to be hedges around internally that kind of segregate the parking area?
Vemelle Clayton: We haven't got much parking over here so we don't have anything in-between here.
Mainly because, to answer your question is no, we don't have any hedges right in here. We're hoping to
keep an eye on the hedge situation and have more where it's more, where it can be used. We can't create a
blind comer here on this one. It just isn't.., on both sides of the trash enclosure, we don't have any type
of... So again this whole landscaping is all done...
Mayor Mancino: Any questions from council members? Any other, anything else you'd like to show us?
Vemelle Clayton: No. If something comes up that I don't have.., what you ask me. I might have forgotten
something...
Mayor Mancino: When do you expect to be building the retail building?
Vemelle Clayton: Ben Merriman has been sitting here watching this and he's in charge of all of the leases.
We're basically in, we'll know tomorrow about one fairly large user. And if that's a go, then we'll speed
up the process on some of the smaller ones and I would think in oh, 30 to 60 days we'd be done with that,
which is about the same amount of time that we'll need to complete the financing. We're hoping to
complete this as one package, both Famous Dave's and this and so if we get them approved in say October,
that would be like a 60 day time frame for that process and under construction hopefully yet this year.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Comments from commissioners. Councilman Berquist.
Councilman Berquist: Well I'm just struck, I'm always amazed at how the mundane necessities of life
have a tendency to.
Mayor Mancino: Take all of our time.
Councilman Berquist: Create all of the problems. I don't really have any real big questions. This building
was set up for maximum, we're...the building architecturally so that it would have 12 tenants possibly.
Likely to be that. Unlikely to be that many but. And the 70% appearing roof line. IfI were to project that
out so that it had a roof pitch similar to Market Square or to a Market Square II. Edina Realty?
Mayor Mancino: The Medical Arts building.
Councilman Berquist: The Edina Realty building. That sucker would be about a third again as high as it is
now, yes? Is that about right? And I, in my opinion that would be too high. From a builders point of
view, I understand absolutely why having the flat roof area is essentially to the operation. The overall
operation of the building from a tenant's perspective... Flat roofs work much better. And they might be
cost effective.., tenant down the road and what not. I like it. I'm wondering as we move further down
main street, are we kind of seeing the concept emerging in your mind and at what point are we going to
begin to individualize the retail with the tendency...the residential above. And that's certainly not a
question that needs answering from you during this evening but a question that I've thought about.
Vemelle Clayton: Do you want an answer or should I sit down?
Councilman Berquist: Have you got an answer? Great.
Vernelle Clayton: We were meeting with KKE and another architect on the, who specializes. KKE is sort
of the specialist in retail layout and so forth. We've just had two meetings with them, including this
afternoon. That's because we need their input to attract some national, key national tenants that we really
want who have expressed an interest so it will be a few months before you see a plan but.
Councilman Berquist: They're the recognized national, experts on.
Vernelle Clayton: Retail design plans and then we have another architect that is an expert on residential
apartments so they're collaborating.
Councilman Berquist: Really.
Vernelle Clayton: He still will be responsible for writing the overview to see that they get it right.
Councilman Berquist: Good. But no, I have no overriding concerns. I think it looks like a very nice
project.
Mika Milo: ... from one standpoint, yes you are right. We are trying with these buildings to separate the
apartments for the main street. That's what we said. We believe that main street... We would like that the
roof forms and forms here give some pretty good idea of what's going to happen on the main street even
though main street has a residential... In terms of forms, roof forms.., especially about residential but there
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
will be definitely a need for some both architectural and functionally for some portion of the roof to be flat
roof..., even on these buildings is that contrast of the flat roofs and the slope roofs. The whole village was
never meant, never. If you look at the initial overall view and concept, there was always combination of
flat roof and slope roof. It really brings to some.., addition for architecture.
Councilman Berquist: Well in my mind's eye I can add a story there and put in some windows for
residential and it looks good.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Mason.
Councilman Mason: It's really interesting watching all this take shape. Obviously I think a lot of good
people have put a lot of good time into it. I'm comfortable with the way things are going.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: I guess I share most of the comments made. However mundane it is, I do get a little
concerned about what's the ongoing solution to some of the mundane problems are going to be. I've got a
question for Milo. As an architect, how do you feel about wood sided commercial buildings?
Mika Milo: The siding of the commercial building?
Councilman Senn: Yes.
Mika Milo: I feel considering the character of the Village and the main street architecture that we are
trying here to mimic, that I feel good about that. That's why I'm proposing, I think it brings a little bit
more of the warm residential and character if you wish so and wood siding has been already always
traditionally, historically part of the main street architecture. So we would however not have a raw wood.
We would have a stain with a solid stain so it is kind of like painted almost. But it permeates more deep
stain so it is more permanent. So I think it's some certain limited applications it's fine. I don't see the
whole main street would be wood. There will be probably also a property for residential units on the top as
we have 2-3 floors of residential. There would be wood siding also.., as far as when you come down to the
lower floors where the retail is, probably there will be an area below of the wood... So if it even happens
that sometimes it drops down to a retail level or first floor, then it is a nice connection between.., so I think
wood siding works fine as an additional reaching more the architectural look and diversity of architecture in
the...
Councilman Senn: Why did you originally design vinyl instead of wood?
Mika Milo: Oh, I'm saying that the wood would be preferably but I'm saying even some vinyls nowadays,
because of maintenance, they look really almost like wood. I would prefer wood siding. I'm saying here
vinyl has being an option. Being used so much here for durability purpose and from TH 5 you really don't
see what... I would not have hard feeling if that was vinyl siding but I would prefer definitely wood. And
maybe for that limited application here, it's probably more.., most appropriate though because of large
surfaces. But for that small, little building here, I would say I don't have any problems with saying wood
siding.
Councilman Senn: Nothing more.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Okay, I just have a few comments. I like the wood siding. I think it's natural. It's a
good material. I have no problem with using a different roofing material on that last one instead of the
siding, the seam siding for the roof. Because I think it will give it a different texture, which would be nice.
I have concern, the only concern that I have that I think the Planning Commission raised too, and it still
isn't really quantifiable is that we won't be seeing any rooftop HVAC anywhere from anyplace on site or
on Highway 5. So whether that means we have to look at elevations from different places in the City, I'd
like the staff to do that. Making sure.
Kate Aanenson: The one place I think you can, Grandview possibly. Those homes.
Bob Generous: You have to be up on the hill.
Kate Aanenson: Up on Grandview, those homes up there. Because of the pitch of the proposed roof.
Bob Generous: It's at least 8 feet...behind the parapet.
Mayor Mancino: I want to know how much, because the people on Grandview right now you know, their
property now looks directly down on St. Hubert's which you know, their views are up on rooftops,
equipment. So I am concerned about that.
Kate Aanenson: We'll make sure we check on that.
Mayor Mancino: Would you? A display of artwork on the rooftop. No, but you know really, seriously,
their views have been very altered and so I'm concerned about, for this. What were some of the other? Oh!
I'm not convinced, and I'm sorry about this but I must say I'm not convinced of putting the trash in the
middle of a parking lot and the smells and everything else when you are going to a restaurant and when
you're going to retail, that you're going to have this smell sitting out right in the middle of parking lot. I
think it should be at an end and kind of off so that's my concern and I think that architecturally it can be
worked in so that it doesn't, it has a look that faces TH 5 or the wetland that is very pleasing to the eye.
Mike has done a wonderful job with all the other buildings. I know that he could make the trash area look
good too. I just think for the general public who comes in to park, and to park near one and to smell it, it's
just not a welcoming thing so that's my point of view. I don't have any other comments. I think it looks
great. I'm excited about it. I like the combination of roof lines and what's working there. So I think it
looks great, and I also like the ideas of the awnings bringing the color and the spirit and letting the
buildings kind of recede. I think that's a wonderful architectural statement and I will very much look
forward to seeing the glass silo. So what is in the glass silo? Are you filling it up with grain?
Vemelle Clayton's answer could not be heard on the tape.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. I would very much say about the trash enclosure and where it goes, depending
upon other City Council members, that it certainly be very specific about using arborvitae or some, not
deciduous or coniferous edge around it to help camouflage the look. Great. I think this is exciting. A
motion.
Councilman Mason: I would move approval of the site plan. Site Plan #97-12 for a 14,849 square foot
building on Lot 2, Block 1, Village on the Pond 2nd Addition, plans prepared by Milo Architecture Group
dated 7/23/97 with conditions as stated in the staff report with condition number 12 being that the
44
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
landscaping around the trash enclosure be coniferous and it will do the job it is meant to do upon planting.
Meaning that it's not going to take two years to grow.
Councilman Senn: And be year round in nature.
Councilman Mason: Yes, thank you. And be year round in nature.
Councilman Berquist: So your motion includes trash enclosure where it is proposed at this time? Right?
Councilman Mason: Sure.
Councilman Berquist: Second.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve Site Plan/t97-12 for a 14,489
square foot building on Lot 2, Block 1, Villages on the Ponds 2nd Addition, plans prepared by Milo
Architecture Group dated 7/23/97, subject to the following conditions:
1. Increase width of landscape islands. Landscape islands less than 10 feet in width must have aeration
tubing installed with the trees.
2. The developer shall enter into a site plan agreement and provide the necessary security required by
the agreement.
3. Add an overstory tree and shrubs or hedges at the north end of the parking lot area and have staff
review the landscape plan.
4. Add two trees to parking lot landscaping in landscape islands adjacent to trash enclosure and have
staff review the landscape plan.
5. Add planter boxes to west and south sides of building.
6. Provide a pitched roof element to screen the roof top equipment as shown on the plans dated
September 3, 1997.
7. Provide the City with a detail on the trash enclosure for approval. All accessory structures shall be
designed to be compatible with the primary structure.
8. The applicant will need to develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the City's
Best Management Practice Handbook and the Surface Water Management Plan requirements for new
developments. The building setback line and erosion control fencing shall be denoted on the final
grading and drainage plans prior to issuance of a building permit. The plan shall be submitted to the
City for review and formal approval.
9. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and
disc-mulched or wood fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of each activity in
accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook.
45
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
10.
The sidewalks and trails on the site shall be constructed in conjunction with the overall site
improvements and prior to issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy unless inclement weather
conditions prohibit.
11.
The sanitary sewer and water lines and storm sewer on the site will be privately owned and
maintained by the property owner and not the City. The contractor will be responsible for obtaining
the appropriate sewer, water and plumbing permits from the City's Building Department. Cross
access easements for the utilities and driveways shall be dedicated over the lot.
12. The landscaping around the trash enclosure be coniferous and year round in nature and that the
landscaping be complete upon planting.
Councilman Mason and Councilman Berquist voted in favor. Mayor Mancino and Councilman Senn
voted in opposition. The motion failed with a tied vote of 2 to 2.
Mayor Mancino: So we have two no's and.
Councilman Berquist: I'll amend the motion to say trash enclosure to be, the location of trash enclosure to
be worked out and granted administrative approval and see if they buy that.
Councilman Mason: Well that's okay with me but, I'll go back to what I said before. It seems to me if
Planning Commission is okay with it, and developer is okay with it and staff is okay with it, I'm okay with
it and I think, I disagree with the two no votes. Now if this, so yeah.
Councilman Berquist: Well I'll move approval predicated on the location of the trash enclosure being
discussed, bandied about and concluded and approved on the administrative level.
Kate Aanenson: How about this. You're going to see Famous Dave's come back. How about between
now and when we come back with Famous Dave's, we just leave that and we'll try to work something
out...
Mayor Mancino: I think that's a good way to do that.
Councilman Berquist: So the motion is to approve the site plan with no approval on the trash enclosure
and we'll work the trash enclosure out when Famous Dave's comes back. Have something figured out by
then.
Mayor Mancino: And maybe, you know just show a couple different options. I mean that's all, but show
just a couple different options. What it is and when, I think that's a motion I could second. So it changes it
a little.
Councilman Berquist moved, Mayor Mancino seconded to approve Site Plan #97-12 for a 14,489
square foot building on Lot 2, Block 1, Villages on the Ponds 2nd Addition, plans prepared by Milo
Architecture Group dated 7/23/97, subject to the following conditions:
Increase width of landscape islands. Landscape islands less than 10 feet in width must have aeration
tubing installed with the trees.
46
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
The developer shall enter into a site plan agreement and provide the necessary security required by
the agreement.
Add an overstory tree and shrubs or hedges at the north end of the parking lot area and have staff
review the landscape plan.
Add two trees to parking lot landscaping in landscape islands adjacent to trash enclosure and have
staff review the landscape plan.
5. Add planter boxes to west and south sides of building.
Provide a pitched roof element to screen the rooftop equipment as shown on the plans dated
September 3, 1997.
Provide the City with a detail on the trash enclosure for approval with the Famous Dave's site plan
and bring in different location options for City Council to review. All accessory structures shall be
designed to be compatible with the primary structure.
The applicant will need to develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the City's
Best Management Practice Handbook and the Surface Water Management Plan requirements for new
developments. The building setback line and erosion control fencing shall be denoted on the final
grading and drainage plans prior to issuance of a building permit. The plan shall be submitted to the
City for review and formal approval.
All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and
disc-mulched or wood fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of each activity in
accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook.
10.
The sidewalks and trails on the site shall be constructed in conjunction with the overall site
improvements and prior to issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy unless inclement weather
conditions prohibit.
11.
The sanitary sewer and water lines and storm sewer on the site will be privately owned and
maintained by the property owner and not the City. The contractor will be responsible for obtaining
the appropriate sewer, water and plumbing permits from the City's Building Department. Cross
access easements for the utilities and driveways shall be dedicated over the lot.
12. The landscaping around the trash enclosure be coniferous and year round in nature and that the
landscaping be complete upon planting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Mancino: And we'll see you again on the Famous trash, we'll see you again on trash. No, but
seriously I just think a couple options would be. And I know you've gone through them so I don't discount
pleas any.
Vemelle Clayton: I don't think we're...
47
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Exactly. Thank you. thank you for your patience.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: UPDATE ON TRIAX CABLEVISION, ASSISTANT
CITY MANAGER.
Don Ashworth: I don't see Todd .... I passed out earlier this evening a report or letter that she had faxed
over to us earlier in the day. This was based on some information that the City Council had requested
when you had met with Triax representatives from a week ago. And that should be somewhere in front of
you. If you don't find it, let me know and I'll see ifI can find another.
Mayor Mancino: No, we're fine thank you. Does everyone have theirs?
Councilman Senn: It was given to us tonight? Is that what you're talking about?
Mayor Mancino: Yes.
Don Ashworth: Very short. Jane, did you wish to say anything more?
Mayor Mancino: Would you like to come in front of the Council please.
Jane Bremmer: Madam Mayor, members of the Council, I'm Jane Bremmer. I'm legal counsel for Triax
Cable. Delighted to be here. Thank you very much. I will keep this short. You've had a long night. This
is part of a series of steps that Triax and the City have collaboratively undertaken to address what has been
a long summer of construction here in the City of Chanhassen for cable television subscribers. We think
that we are nearing the end of what has been a difficult year we understand for certainly for our staff and
also for our subscribers. And on behalf of the company it was obviously never our intent to make it
anything but a great product available for subscribers. The best laid plans, right. We are, and have been
working with the Mayor, your staff, on a series of steps designed to number one identify the issues as have
been presented by our customers to us. Your constituents to you. Number two. To provide more
information to the City and to it's staff, both in terms of ongoing communications but also for decision
making and in responding to constituents and customers. And number three, putting some preventative and
proactive steps in place, both from a technical construction and maintenance planning point of view, as well
as a communications point of view with the City. So those have been the objectives I think and there may
have been other objectives on some of the other parties but those are certainly our objectives in working
with the city. There have been a couple of meetings. There's been a lot of hours spent on this by a number
of people in this room. City staff. Members of the Council. The Mayor. And by Triax personnel and
together I think we have been able to address a lot of the issues. What is outstanding at this point, and
there may be other issues that you wish to discuss tonight, but the subject of the letter that's in front of you
was to respond to some specific information requests which were posed to us by the council during it's
work session last week. And those were, first of all to update the written report on the outages that Triax
has experienced during the month of August. That is attached as Exhibit A to this document. A couple of
the outages are items that were already identified to the Council. We had a fiber optic laser transmitters
that turned out was defective from the manufacturer we have now determined. That, for those of you that
experienced outages from channels 20 and up, it was because the optical transmitter was intermittently
blocking your picture so that has been replaced. The manufacturer's warranty has been extended on the
new piece of equipment to avoid the problem with the old and I think that we've certainly resolved that.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
We had also, this Council had also asked us to summarize how we intended to handle the issue of
subscriber credits. We've provided some information to the Council tonight. I can answer questions about
that. I would inform the Council and members of the public that we have been giving credits throughout
the summer to people who have experienced problems so certainly if you've not called us about that of if
you'd like to discuss your situation personally, we'd be happy to take that call and talk that through with
you. The third point of information that the Mayor in particular had asked for was, how we intended to
communicate with the City on a going forward basis. Certainly through the end of the construction season
and then for as long, going forward as the Council would like to see. And we have agreed to provide
trouble call reports. When an individual calls the cable operator, a trouble call report is generated which
identifies the type of problem, when the call came in, what time it came in and when technical services
dispatched. When the technician arrives at the home and hopefully corrects the problem, that time and date
and what the correction was is also entered into the same report. We can generate a report from that
trouble call log that identifies every single truck roll that we make in the City of Chanhassen, as well as
many of the problems that do not require truck rolls. We cannot and do not provide personally identifiable
information, but we can provide aggregate information and we can also provide individual information with
the street addresses and names blanked out so subscriber privacy is preserved. Those types of reports will
e coming to Mr. Gerhardt on a weekly basis I think through the end of the construction season is what was
requested, and thereafter as often as you'd like to see those. Weekly, bi-weekly, monthly. We also
generate a great deal of information on subscriber installation and disconnection which is available to the
City. And we felt that we should supplement that with bi-weekly conference calls which would be helpful,
both for us to get information from the City and for you to get information from us as far as what our plans
are. The preventative steps have been put in place, I will just to highlight very briefly because they've been
the subject of a lot of meetings and correspondence. There's been an on site construction supervisor
assigned to the City of Chanhassen. We are going back through every inch of plant in the city and doing a
system balancing, which is basically it's a full scale walkout of the cable system. That performs two
functions. Number one, it lets us check every piece of electronics in the system to make sure that it's
operating properly. And number two, it allows us to check the cables in the system to make sure that they
haven't been knicked or cut or pulled out or dug up or those sorts of things, all of which can cause signal
quality problems. That project will be concluded on September 30th. We are also in the process of
switching out our long distance vendor, which has been a large part of the problem with people that have
had difficulties getting in to the 800 number. We, like many businesses, made a switch to a long distance
vendor that did not meet our needs and we're going back to AT&T. They'll probably be happy to hear
that. They know that but now they're hearing it on TV. And right now that conversion is still scheduled
for the second week of October, as we discussed. We've added customer service representatives. We've
added phone lines. A number of steps that I don't think I need to reiterate at this point in time, but suffice
it to say that there's been a great deal of effort by elected officials, city staff and Triax employees and we
hope that it's paying off for our customers so.
Mayor Mancino: Good, thank you Jane. Any questions at this point?
Councilman Senn: Yeah. Jane I think, now I understand you're not the technician but.
Jane Bremmer: Right.
Councilman Senn: I think we're getting there, okay. When I got this tonight and looked through it, I was
pleased to see that most the problem areas as far as Mission Hills, Chanhassen Hills and Lake Susan Hills
are identified that I was aware of through the contacts I had. I don't, in our first meeting I asked you for a
complete set of service call records. You know deleted to whatever point that you limit it personally. We
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
still have not received that. Okay. We received a highly summarized one of the second one which was by
no means complete because it left out major segments of the city where you'd been getting quite a number
of phone calls as far as problems go, okay. By that list I refer to this short little list that we were given in
the last meeting.
Jane Bremmer: The outage reports.
Councilman Senn: Right, which your own list now shows to be you know very, very abbreviated, okay.
Secondly, and maybe the way we need to get to the problem is, I guess what I'd like to see is, I'd like to see
a copy of your system grid and I'd like to see how your system's set up and works. You've left out the
entire east portion of the city which you've excused in here through a bad trunk amplifier relating to one
street. In the first place, trunk amplifier does not only serve one street.
Jane Bremmer: Some do.
Councilman Senn: Well I can tell you in this case it doesn't because I don't even get my cable off the
streets you've mentioned, okay. Secondly, the calls and complaints I have are from a much broader area
than that one street. Area. And most of those calls, or a majority of those calls relate back to the same
problem that you already talked about as it relates to your optical transmitter because a good number of
those calls were bad cable over channels 22, which has nothing to do with a trunk amplifier and has to do
with what you described as the optical transmitter. Now again, you're not a technician so I'm not trying to
get you into the technical part.
Jane Bremmer: No, but those costs were subsequent to the replacement of the optical transmitter.
Councilman Senn: These homes have been the same homes affected June, July, and August and into the
first part of September.
Jane Bremmer: You're not seeing them on this list?
Councilman Senn: I'm not seeing any of them. I've seen major segments left out of here on the east side of
the city.
Mayor Mancino: ... specific streets that you know about?
Councilman Senn: Kurvers Point Road. You've got Willow View Cove. There's Dakota. There's, I
don't know. Just put down the whole Lotus Lake Estates area. Put down the Colonial Grove
neighborhood. Put down Fox Hollow neighborhood. Those are all have been real big problem areas, and
again the same problem being related to what you were talking about, this optical transmitter. Being
stations above 22 all the time. The other thing, at least in my mind that we're going to have to spend a lot
more time talking about is where you're at on your credits, because the records that I have from each one of
these areas in terms of affected cable, affect far greater percentages of time than what is here, but maybe
that puts the onus on our back at this point to come back to you with some numbers and maybe we'll do
that but I think before we even get to that, I think we need to get a better understanding or definition of your
areas and if we can't get that, I'm going to say just kind of outright this way, then I guess maybe the
system grid is a way for us to understand that because I can even, or I mean you know. We can test the
system grid or check a system grid and find out what's furnishing what and follow problems down the line
if it's not a big problem. If that's what it takes to do it, but I assume your people could probably give you
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
that full list. But also going back to our original meeting, if you'll give us those records that we ask for and
in fact we're entitled to under our contract, I think that will describe a lot of it.
Jane Bremmer: I think the fact that you do not have the service call report is probably my fault. We
interpreted the request as an outage report. It was just a question of semantics, but you were looking for
the complete service call report and I'll be happy to provide that so I misunderstood your request.
Councilman Senn: Customer complaint reports is what we're looking for .... more specific. What did you
have calls from and for what purpose.
Jane Bremmer: Right. And that's the report that we were talking about providing going forward. I'm
sorry, I didn't understand you wanted it going back so we can certainly do that. And the system as built
maps are available. I think there may even be a set on file with the city, although it would only cover the
original plan and then major additions going forward so it wouldn't answer your questions specifically but
that's easy to do. I think the.
Councilman Senn: I mean just so you know from a timing standpoint. When the complaints came in, the
complaint came in across all these areas on the same day. Had nothing to do with this part of the city
versus that part of the city and the problems were the same. When Lake Susan Hills called and said they
were having problems over channel 22, it was the same time that Lotus Lake Estates would call and said
they were having problems over 22. Okay. So what I'm seeing here is not following that up, or at least
defining that very well.
Jane Bremmer: Okay. That's a fair critique. I mean we will, this is a first pass so I appreciate your
comments.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, great. My only comment is that I've gotten a couple calls still people cannot get
through. The lines have been busy and that was just last Friday. And this was Mission Hills area. One
that you've pinpointed in your report. That they're still getting cloudy pictures and they could not get
through because it was busy.
Jane Bremmer: And this was just this last Friday?
Mayor Mancino: Just this last Friday. And the particular resident did say that she was given a credit for
all of September because of all the problems that she's had this summer.
Jane Bremmer: The individual that contacted you, did she schedule a technical call to look at her picture
quality? I mean has that been resolved or is that something that?
Mayor Mancino: I don't know. When I talked to her on Friday she was so frustrated because she still
couldn't get through. And she also made the remark that I just think that you might want to pass along that
she's called throughout the summer and she said at first the service representative that she talked to was
very cordial. Helping her out. Here's what we'll do, etc. and she said lately when I've called the service
representative is just saying, you know it's because of the construction crews and they're cutting the lines
and she said they've taken a little different tact now in the way they speak to their customers. And she, I
think was somewhat concerned about that. Blaming it on something else other than Triax.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Jane Bremmer: That is certainly not something that has been directed by the company. We also, as you
know Mayor, have recently implemented software where we can monitor and record and we announce this
now when people call that the conversation may be recorded for training purposes for our customer service
representatives because we want to make sure that if we do have people that have been improperly trained
or perhaps maybe should think about a different line of work, that we can identify those people quickly.
Mayor Mancino: I understand that. Good. Any other questions? Thank you very much for the report.
Jane, when do you think you could get back to us with the service, the customer complaint report.
Jane Bremmer: If not tomorrow, probably the next day. The only reason it would take, it's a computer
generated report but we have to go through and white out the names and addresses. We leave the street on,
Council member Senn so you know what you'll be getting and I'll attach trouble code and fix codes so you
can read the report but we, we're obligated as a matter of federal law to remove anything that's personally
identifiable so. It's just that manual process that will take a little bit of time but.
Mayor Mancino: Well thank you for your continued work on this. We appreciate it.
Jane Bremmer: Thank you Mayor for your continued cooperation.
ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION DISCUSSION:
Mayor Mancino: Questions on the Admin Section. Or comments.
Councilman Berquist: I wanted to ask you about that letter from that gentleman that was experiencing
financial difficulty and unable to pay his water and sewer bill. I know he's.., very matter of fact. Is there
nothing that can be...
Don Ashworth: I don't remember. I think he's somewhere between $600.00 and $800.00.
Councilman Berquist: Yeah, you did say that.., long time and only now was it.
Don Ashworth: Right, and there really wasn't any initial contacts. I mean you know.., called and say can
we start working.
Councilman Senn: Oh, it built up to that level before you even heard from him?
Don Ashworth: Right.
Councilman Berquist: And while that's not a, while that's inexcusable, that is humanly understandable.
Don Ashworth: If he for some reason does go into a bankruptcy position, any of that, if it is certified to the
County, we stand in line to insure that we... Council if you'd like me to take and say $100.00 a month and
try to get this thing current.
Councilman Senn: Well I had that one too. I thought we had a procedure set up where they could appeal
that or ask the Council for special consideration. We've had other people come in and ask us for that on
those delinquent bills.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Don Ashworth: I made the assumption that I would re-include his letter when we actually ask for
certification and we do have one additional letter that will go in there. They have had an extreme amount of
brown water. They'd like to see some reduction in their bill because of the inconvenience that they've had
to go through. More than inconvenience. They've lost a hot water heater. Stained clothes. So you'll see
that. But if on this first one is you'd like me to get a hold of him and see if he would be amenable, you
know whatever amount. Realize that if he does decide to do the bankruptcy.
Councilman Senn: But if we agreed to some sort of a payment plan with him, okay. And first of all I think
you need to check it out and find out if there's just cause to do it and then, I mean I don't blame the guy for
not wanting to come in and talk about it in a public forum. We ought to have a better way to do it than that
but I mean, can't we actually come up with some type of an agreement Roger that would effectively protect
us from that situation. Whereas if we do an agreement on a payment plan, that we can protect ourselves
from being put in that position?
Roger Knutson: The only way we can protect ourselves from bankruptcy is having them certified to taxes.
If it's just an agreement.
Councilman Senn: Well then bingo. I mean can we set up a payment plan and certify the taxes? X
amount paid with each tax bill or something.
Roger Knutson: It is. Half on May 15th and half on October 15th.
Councilman Senn: Well I'm saying other than that. Okay, other than half and half.
Roger Knutson: Not with taxes.
Councilman Senn: I mean so you're limited to the year and that's it? I mean we couldn't say go ahead and
pay it off over 2 years, 4 payments? You know with your taxes.
Roger Knutson: WE could but then we wouldn't be certifying. It isn't like a special assessment. It's
either certified to taxes, if you certify the taxes, it's payable the next year. If you certify half of it and hold
the second half for the next, for the following year, then it hasn't been certified and he can bankrupt out of
it.
Don Ashworth: Well here's another alternative and that is, when the thing comes back up here to see some
form of reduction, either in the certification fee or penalties and interest that have been built up. In effect
you're making it a little easier for them in fact to next year make the payment.., some sympathy along the
way.
Councilman Berquist: Is certification coming soon? Second week in October?
Don Ashworth: October or November. I think the notices have already been sent out to the individuals.
Councilman Senn: Well prior to it coming, can you guys kind of check out his situation and see if it
warrants that? Or at least make a recommendation as to whether it warrants that.
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Don Ashworth: Where we've done this before is where people have had a huge water bill. You know they
were gone and the softener went off or... and then we've agreed just to let that individual pay without
penalties or interest, $50.00 or $100.00 a quarter until they got the $700.00 bill paid off.
Mayor Mancino: I'd like to see a payment plan.
Councilman Senn: Let's see, another item. Charles isn't still here but maybe you've already talked to him
about it or asked him. You know our sump pump program, all that sort of thing. You know kind of really
expected our flows to be going down and we have skyrocketed. I mean I assume there's an explanation for
it or?
Don Ashworth: Well first of all realize that there still, like I can't remember, Charles told me this morning.
Todd Gerhardt: 500.
Don Ashworth: 500 that have not let us in their house yet.
Councilman Senn: That many?
Don Ashworth: And it appears as though, like I got one letter here today and the guy confessed that his is
going off all the time but he doesn't want to take and put it out in the back yard. You'll see a copy of that
letter in the next Admin Section.
Todd Gerhardt: He also believes that people have hooked them back up now.
Don Ashworth: Yeah, that's another thing we're fearful of. But we did document.
Councilman Senn: I mean this wild. I mean this is higher than ever in terms of...
Don Ashworth: Well it has been awfully wet too.
Councilman Senn: Wow! I was kind of taken aback so to speak. In the, let's see, there's a second item.
Letter to Andrew Spevacek I think it is. We've had two or three conversations on this now and this letter
still says, which was just written here this past week. Today plans are being made to construct such a
facility in City Center Park regarding the skating park. I really don't, I thought we agreed that we were
going to put the brakes on that whole discussion on it and we were going to kind of get back to look at
it... these types of facilities. Yet here we are still sending letters out to our residents kind of telling them it's
already coming. I don't know. I'm getting disappointed on this one especially since I've brought it up four
times now and it's still happening every week. And the other one I have we already talked about so that
was it.
Mayor Mancino: Any other discussion items? I think that's it for tonight.
Mayor Mancino adjourned the meeting at 9:55 p.m.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
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City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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