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14a. Downton Signage CITY OF CHANHASSEN 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 ' (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager FROM: Barbara Dacy, City Plann DATE: April 21, 1988 fi SUBJ: Downtown Signage Concepts ' The Planning Commission reviewed this item at their meeting of March 2 , 1988. Please review the attached minutes and packet. The Planning Commission agreed with the concept to create ' district area identification signs in specific locations in the downtown area and to prohibit future installation of pylon signs for individual businesses. However, they did suggest further ' study as to compare district pylon signs with and without indivi- dual business signs . Further, they wanted to evaluate enlarging the proposed area to the west to County Road 17. The City Attorney has also prepared an opinion regarding the ordinance for these types of signs (also enclosed) . RECOMMENDATION ' Staff feels it necessary to gain concurrence from the Council to proceed with the type of study requested by the Planning Commission. Staff fully supports the Planning Commission recom- mendation on this issue; however, before additional study is con- ducted, Council direction is requested. Should the Council concur with this signage concept, the Chamber of Commerce will be contacted to provide input to the Planning Commission. I 1 I r Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 9 that a secondary access is not necessary. 1 All voted in favor and motion carried. APPROVAL OF MINUTES : Emmings moved, Headla seconded to approve the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated February 17, 1988 as II amended by Ladd Conrad on pages 6 and 37. All voted in favor and motion carried. DOWNTOWN SIGNAGE CONCEPTS. Dacy: While Jim' s setting up I ' ll just start. For the three reasons I that I stated on the first page of my memo, staff wanted to look a little closer at the issue of signage in the downtown area and for the reasons of the aesthetics issues for downtown redevelopment and II improving the streetscape of downtown and the visual image as well as trying to create a consistent form of signage in the downtown area we thought we' d put this before the Planning Commission to see what your ideas were because you have in the past expressed opinions about signage into the community and into the downtown area. As we began looking at the downtown and the redevelopment projects that were occurring , we noticed that the developments were taking shape into smaller areas which we have labled on here as districts. Retail West right across from the new bank, the Kenny' s building over on the east side, the proposed Medical Arts Building Center , the whole area on the II west side of Market Blvd . side. So these little nodes started appearing and we thought, what a good way to use that to our advantage and create what we' re calling district signs to focus traveling motorist into what that particular node or commercial development is doing . The first part of our proposal is to create these district signs. They would not have any advertising or business names on them but they would just state a name . For example, Chanhassen Square or Chanhassen Government Offices . Headla : That would be where the red stars are? Dacy: No. The district signs are those located and proposed as the small black dots to identify that node and what ' s occurring there but not necessarily saying Q-Suprette and Domi.noe' s Pizza, etc . . What this means is that in creating district signs , what happens to the other signs by individual property owners so a couple of issues are there . One is , this means not allowing anymore new pylon signs . For example, not allowing Kenny' s the ability to have an individual pylon sign of the Daycare center to have another pylon sign. It would mean solely that these signs would satisfy what we call street level identification of that node . There would be a lot of wall signage of ( course and we're looking at some performance standards with that to act as a compliment to the district signage. Down on the West 79th Street area, that poses maybe as a bigger issue because we do have I IIPlanning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 10 II i I several free standing buildings, existing buildings. Do we want to go so far as to go back and remove those existing pylons or take the approach of when these uses leave or burn down to occupancy changes, II do we want to request that they remove the pylon? Again, opt for a district sign, one sign denoting what this node is. So that ' s one issue, the district sign issue that we ' re asking your input on. The second issue is what Dave asked about , the red stars , the entry I monuments. You talked a lot about this about a year ago when the Chamber came in and through some other development requests so we wanted to create another type of sign that would say "Welcome to I Chanhassen, Dinner Theater this way" or whatever that type of message would be on the sign. We wanted to look at locating those in strategic points when you get into the downtown area. What we' re looking at initially is one located at the intersection of Market I Blvd. and TH 5 and one up here on West 78th Street at the base of Kerber Blvd . . One as you cross the railroad tracks on Great Plains Blvd. in front of Klingelhutz ' office building and future entry signs I at, the Chamber sign was allowed to be up for 5 years . The Council put a condition on that so after 5 years, that sign could come down and we could have an alternative form of signage at that location and I another future sign at the new intersection here when we realign TH 101 into TH 5 at West 78th Street . The purpose tonight is to talk in general terms, from the Planning Commission' s standpoint, if this should be pursued any further . Staff ' s recommendation is that we I really feel stongly in the central core area of the downtown of the district signage and the entrance monument signage is a worthwhile project to pursue. We think it does compliment our overall effort to I create an uncluttered and appealing streetscape when you get into the downtown area. That ' s our recommendation on that. So that ' s the first issue that we need your comment on. What do you think of all of this and then the second issue that we need your comment on is, do you I think we should expand this concept to other commercial areas of the City? So if you say no to one, that answers two but if you do say yes , that does have some implications for other potential areas . I Maybe I ' ll ask Jim maybe to just briefly describe the district sign approach with the complimenting wall signs . I Jim Lasher : A couple of quick notes about signage. What a lot of communities are doing is going to a more performance oriented signage code and not the standards which is what most often really Chanhassen has now. You get so many square feet of signage for so many square I feet of developable space or facade area. By going to a performance type signage ordinance you are encouraging a lot more creative look at how you ' re going to sign your building and it requires a little bit I more aesthetic appeal from the people that work at staff to be able to look at these kind of issues but you ' re opening up a lot of opportunities for people to do some exciting things. You' re also opening up an opportunity for somebody to do something really ugly so I it ' s definitely a double edged sword . One of the things that has been used in the past and we' re thinking about using in the downtown area is a signage band for a strip type of commercial establishment which Iwe' re getting a couple of them downtown. Usually it' s a continuous 11 Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 11 k band along the face of a building. One of the statements is that II these signs are generally based on a solid color that 's continuous all the way along the building edge and the signs are separate layers that punctuate that color. What that does is allow the signs to be read but it doesn' t interrupt the building movement all the way along the facade. It maintains it instead of having a box of one size that maybe you use backlight fluorescent and then a smaller box that ' s maybe a neon and it gets to be a little bit of a hodge podge so we allow to have a continuous sign band. Generally the sign band is about two feet high. In this drawing and in a lot of performance type codes , they are allowing the sign bands to get larger when businesses II are set off of the street, if in fact they meet the criteria for height about the sign band. What that does , if you can picture what this building would look like flat with a 4 foot high sign band and then think of putting another 7 or 8 feet of roof above it in a 4 foot II high sign band, you' re going to get a much better, cleaner looking building and the signs are not going to look out of scale. So that' s what we propose. We' ve been working with the developers of both these 1 buildings, the Colonial Center and I ' ll call it Retail West because I haven't heard the new name yet, but work with them because they did want to get a larger sign bands. We worked with this roof structure I to try and get that up a little higher to give a better proportion to our sign area . What that also allows them to do is to put larger letters that are read from farther away. One of the standards is that for each 1 inch height of letter you have in a sign, it' s legible from I 50 feet. So if you have a 12 inch or 1 foot high sign, you can read it from about 600 feet . That ' s a signage standard. So with a 4 foot high band , you can comfortably get 1 to 1 1/2 foot high letters still keeping some space above and below. They are legible from 500 or 600 feet and if they' re lit, it' s even better . That ' s the ideas that we' re working at for developing a new ordinance, is some kind of performance criteria for design. Back to the district situation where once again as Barb described , we' re trying to make a cohesive development out of certain areas which break up either by grade or by just actual splitting of the railroad tracks . It just breaks into a II lot of scenarios. Right now it would good if we could take advantage of that and I think that ' s what we' re here tonight for is to get some input from you about the general idea and whether you see it as what ' s 1 bound together . Emmings: I think node is a funny word . That ' s one comment I have. I think this is an outstanding idea. I just love it. I think it ' s the 1 first thing that I ' ve seen for signing the whole downtown that made any read good sense. I think it' s terrific. That' s all I have to say about that . The other thing I noticed in the packet is the Mayor II taking us to task for our comments to Gary on page 15 of the Council meeting Minutes of January 12 , 1987 . I thought that was kind of too bad. He was disturbed with the comments we made about the sign. It looked like an attempt to knock him down without giving him a chance to say anything or having any respect for their wishes. I guess my view is different from the Mayor ' s so I don ' t know if we should 1 Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 12 ' dedicate ourselves from not having opposing views or what but I just wanted to mention that. ' Ellson: I like the idea of the individual little district names . Sometimes I see these strip type things and it gives me the impression of generic . I can' t necessarily recognize a familiar store because a lot of times they' re not using the lettering that I ' ve seen B. ' Dalton ' s use and things like that . I 'm not sure if that type of thing had to change or not . I don ' t think I would want it so generic that it' s one after the other . I 'm picturing the one by Southdale. It' s ' like Yorktown or whatever and they've got that type of thing and I hate it. I can' t find the store because it ' s not lined up under it' s thing and I can ' t read one from the other very well . I drive by there and it just bugs me. I know there are stores over there that could ' probably help me and I could buys things there but I don ' t like that and I wouldn' t want this to come away with that. If you have like Peck and Peck or whatever ' s there, I 'd like them to be able to use ' their letter style that they use in all their stores . Maybe even the colors that you ' re used to seeing Peck and Peck have in order to recognize them. I notice that ' s the problem I have when I go some of ' those other strip malls. It ' s not the B.Dalton' s I know. It ' s like McDonalds couldn ' t their arches or something. Jim Lasher : One of the things that a lot of buildings in the past t have done, have set up a very strict guideline of you have to use a white letter against a brown background and it has to be this high and it can only be this long. That ' s a standard and they didn ' t allow any ' of the businesses to project any of their image at all and they didn' t allow anyone any creativity. So just by having something that says you can have 40 square feet of signage if you have 3, 000 square feet of businesses. Those are good places to start but we have to allow ' the businesses to really be a lot more creative than just doing the standard old white sign on a brown background. I think if we can pursue something like this a little longer we can come up with a new ' ordinance that allows that to be done. One of the best cities in the nation that does that is Carmel in California . The best signage probably in the nation. The strongest and the best written performance guideline and really working with a copy of that to try and get a sense of how they will accomplish that. It ' s a wonderful place. I ' ve been there. The signs are great . There are a lot of overhanging signs and in fact, they try and get more of those to come ' about because they've used signage where you don ' t have any words. It 's pure symbols . The signage manufacturers have started to realize that the days of the sign with the shoe on it meant shoemaker and it ' s still true today. For some reason, all the words you want to write in the world just doesn ' t get that point across . This guy makes shoes and it ' s coming back. That ' s the kind of thing we really would like to be able to work with in the new ordinance. Ellson: That ' s what I was more concerned that it would et to that t generic look which I just hate . Like you said , some people have creativity and this is the way they market their building, their signs Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 13 are no big deal . I do like the idea of continuity. I don' t like the I Hardware Hank sticking out up there and he ' s the main guy in the Bloomington strip or something like that. I like the idea of each of the areas having a thing. Would one dot be enough? What if someone is coming in from the other direction? Sometimes that' s the only thing I think of. Like the one on 79th, you 've got it located in two places . Both entrances . Is that usually the way it would be? Jim Lasher : What we did is because this was one district and there were two entrances to that district , we gave them one on each side. This is such a large area that we gave one at most logical points here. The way we see this developing, which may or may not happen because we don' t have a true site plan yet is, we see a main entrance to this development off of Market Blvd . . There could in fact be a curb cut and a full right intersection up in here which we may have to I take another look at that but with what we' re working at right now, we have this development, the bowling alley and the bar which has one entrance at this point so that ' s kind of where we started off at . Is looking at the grade split here and knowing that these two will never adjoin unless there ' s a parking ramp/hotel which may or may not happen. The rest of these are more of a just get them where we think , people are going to see them upon entry into the district . That ' s how we picked it. It' s a good point. This one just happens to need two because it has two main entrances . Emmings : I think too on that, if that ' s the only thing that ' s out there , instead of having a whole bunch of signs , if just that thing is out there, it ' s going to be that much more visible. It ' s the only thing there ' s going to be to look at that ' s different than a tree. Headla: I like the concept. I think it ' s very good. I 'd like to see it applied to all our business districts . The district nodes I like. I really the question the information we ' re going to put on the red . If you' ve got somebody tooling down TH 5, you don ' t want them reading a sign that says businesses here or there. I think you really have got to stress what street you ' re on and in your notes you had something about the City Hall. A couple of civic places but I think that' s all that should be there. People come and they know they' ve got to turn on Market Street or whatever , make that be the main focus . Conrad : Some good comments . Mine may not be totally in sync with what you've heard. I totally agree that the individual pylons should II be kept off the street from different companies . There ' s just no doubt. I think that' s critical . I totally agree with Annette ' s comment that individual shops have their own characteristic logo types II or signage or color . Absolute. There' s just no reason to standardize the names because we take something away from the individual companies . I do like the continuity of the stripe or of some way to fit the signage in on the store fronts . I think that ' s smart also. I 'm not convinced of the pylons in front of each shop. To say Retail West says nothing to me. We ' re not designing a southdale here. The one shopping center has a daycare center in it and something else. ' Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 14 1C k ' I 'm not sure that we need a pylon to say something that really doesn' t have much meaning to me. If I were a retailer , I 'd be more interested in having my name out there. Very much like what the ' Chamber of Commerce has done out on TH 5. That is not an appropriate place for that type of signage. However , having a pylon in front of a shopping center to maybe help identify what's in it, may appeal to the retailers a little bit more. Somebody could possibly make a case two ' ways on this one and I 'd listen to them. One, we' re going to have too many shops in there and therefore we can ' t put everybody' s name out in that pylon. I could understand that. Two, if somebody could claim that Retail West or whatever has some meaning or will ever have meaning and therefore the kids at home say, dad let ' s go to Retail West, then I ' ll listen to that case but I ' ve got to be real critical of those . I think those are just things that I 'd have to mull over in ' my mind. If I were a retailer wanting to move into this community and I deal with them all the time, the names are key. The signage is key and we' re taking away their pylons . Therefore, we ' ve got to give them ' something on the storefronts and we also have to help traffic make decisions on whether to turn in or whether not to turn in. I think if there ' s a sign that says daycare this way out by the streets so I ' don' t have to be jerking around to look and see, that may be beneficial . I guess I 'd be real interested in pursuing both alternatives and staff making a recommendation, whichever they feel . I think we' ve got to be sensitive to retailers who want to locate out here. Other comments relating to the big stars there. Whatever we' re a calling those things . The entry monuments . I think we were talking before about the major monument in Chanhassen being moved east so that ' people knew they were coming to Chanhassen before they got to Chanhassen and they just went by it. So that first monument, we' re going to replace the Chamber sign but I think when we talked about the Chamber sign, we were talking about before saying here it is . Get ready to turn. That ' s now what the sign would say but it might say Welcome to Chanhassen, Home of the Dinner Theater or whatever we ' re the home of. But I like the thought of that . I think that ' s real ' important. I also think there should be one on the west side of town close to CR 17 and TH 5 because if you ' re coming from the west , there ' s a good chance you ' re not going to loop back into Chan. You ' re ' going to by-pass or else we ' ve got to get them to turn before . Jim Lasher : That ' s a good point and maybe that 's something we can pursue in that one of the things that affects all our signage in this ' entire corridor is that there will be an additional 50 feet of right-of-way needed and required for the expansion of TH 5. There' s a lot of stuff on TH 5 right now that ' s not going to be there when this ' road is rebuilt. Some of the pylon signs . Certainly the Chamber sign is closer than 50 foot back from Kerber right now. I don' t know when that ' s going to happen but it certainly will at some point . We can pursue moving say this particular monument down the road as long as we can start looking at the future plans of this road and find out if there ' s any property for us to build on. It ' s tough up in here as far as who ' s land are we building this on. Do we have to get State Highway approval to build in that right-of-way? The same down in here Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 15 � 1 C as well . It' s not as critical because the bridge will not be I expanded, at least to my knowledge it' s not going to be expanded. So we probably have the same amount of right-of-way in this area . About 50 foot additional all the way along this side of the road so that' s something we ' ll have to look at if you want to stretch out down a little bit and we' ll look that way too. Buying land. It just so happens that now having a little piece that in 5 years the bulldozer would knock it down. ' Conrad : Conceptually, think about what I just said in sort of making of the announcement that Chanhassen' s coming up and I think that' s what we want to do. Not just say it to them when they happen to be stopped at the stop light but say it to them before they actually get here so ah yes , maybe we should turn off. That' s the idea . Jim Lasher : Plus with the expanding right turn lane, they' re going to I have to make the decision to come up this road probably somewhere back in here and if they get up in this area they will not be able to negotiate that turn. Conrad: My other comment is on the Highway Business District and I guess people locate in highway business districts because they are actually taking people off the highway and are funneling them right back on and they really don' t want to go to Chanhassen to begin with. Pylons , and I really don' t like them but pylons is a real important function of highway business district useage. If you can' t tell somebody that there ' s a gas station , the Standard station from 300 to 500 feet away, they' re not going to turn so I guess my comments would II be not to apply the same standards to the Highway Business District. They may be applicable to other districts but a Highway Business District , for all the clutter , it is essential for them to tell people that they' re there and tell them from a distance away. If there ' s a solution to that , I would sure pay attention but I don ' t think the average owner would feel there is a solution to that. Jim Lasher : Barbara , is this district presently split now from General Business to Highway Business? Isn ' t there a line? Dacy: Yes , it follows generally the Market Blvd . alignment and where II the pond would be too. Conrad: I 'd like standards for those pylons and I think we have some II of those standards in effect right now so we don ' t have those pylons 150 feet in the air , rotating . I want to control that but I don' t think taking them away is going to serve their needs or our needs and therefore I 'd like to apply the standards in other areas . At least that ' s my personal opinion. Anything else? Headla : I liked your comment about putting it out by CR 17 . You' re going to bring in that whole district then. Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 16 Jim Lasher : Maybe we can just discuss for a minute , we' re going to have business running all the way down to CR 17 now, do you see any need to expand this concept out of the purer CBD area or do you feel ' that this is where it works best and let the rest of this deal with your signage as it ' s been dealt with in the past? Ellson: I would see continuing it. Especially if you have another small group of the same thing . Conrad : I think it should be out to where TH 101 intersects , the new ' intersection. It should go down to CR 17. I think a sign at CR 17 is real important or things in that area. Dacy: Okay, to summarize, the Commission liked the idea of the ' district signage and the entry signage but you would like us to look at a business directory sign option for the district signs and look at the option of having a little more detail on the types of uses . Conrad : I think you should give us a couple alternatives to look at. ' Dacy: Second of all to keep the ability on wall signage for individual enterprises to have their own unique color scheme and logo but keep a consistent size sign band or location on the shopping center. Moving the entry signs farther east and west. The last point that I heard was , look at eliminating the Business Highway District restrictions on pylons . Conrad : That ' s what I said . Emmings : That would be the only place you ' d be looking at pylon signs . ' Conrad : That ' s the only place I think they are needed . ' Emmings: Let me ask you something else about your notion. On this one on the right you ' ve got a thing out there that looks like a little house. A little bird house or something. That ' s going to say Retail ' West on it or whatever it says? When you say look at the business directory type of alternative, would it be again something in the same place, one sign that would have the names on it? ' Conrad: Right . Emmings : I guess my point would be this . Wouldn ' t it be easier for ' someone who ' s in that building to say I 'm in Retail West to a customer who wants to find them? Ellson : Once you get to know that that ' s where Retail West is , right . Emmings: Or even if they' re coming into Chanhassen for the first time. All I ' ve got to do is find that thing that says Retail West on it to find the shop. Now if the name of the shop is out there on that Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 17 J' i sign , they still have to look at the building to find the shop. Is it I easier to just to find something with a general name on it than to find it in a list of 15 or 20 names or however many there may be? It might be kind of a nice idea to just be able to identify yourself to an area of town and then they can find the shop because even if the person' s name is out there on the curb, unless it' s right in front of their store , they still have to scan the whole building to find the daycare or whatever it may be. ' Conrad : I 'd like to agree because it would be a nice way of doing it. Emmings: I think it's kind of a novel idea . ' Ellson: What about the drop-ins that were going by and say, oh there is a Hardware Hank there. I guess I 'd go pick up whatever, the impulse type buyers and realize that because there' s a drug store there then I will go to get something versus I ' ll look it up in the Yellow Pages and then try to find that person. 1 Conrad: Practically speaking, it breaks down. If a third of our traffic is from the Dinner Theater or whatever it is , Retail West doesn' t mean anything because they' re not reading any ads. A sign that says Hardware Hank has meaning so from a retailers standpoint, they' re not going to be wild about this and our retailers right now are not real energetic advertising wise and I don ' t see them changing that posture a great deal and spending money saying we ' re over here . That ' s nothing that you really want to say. You really don ' t want to tell people where you ' re located. You want to tell them what' s beneficial about their product . Not where they' re located . That ' s sort of a boring scenario of advertising . Emmings : Could this allow them to have a group identity that will allow them to share advertising? Could they advertise as a group? Ellson : Absolutely. A booklet of Retail West coupons . Conrad: I agree with that Steve. It could . Emmings : Maybe if you set it up that way, maybe they' ll use it that way. Jim Lasher : I think the easiest way to solve this is to do a design of two or three different scenarios and take one and put a simple Retail West . I think there will be about eight separate stores in here or at least from the original plan that ' s what I recall , about I eight , and see what size lettering you could get . Where we could put the signs. Would they be legible from the street and just see if it makes sense . We can tell this just from a scale drawing and that should answer all our questions . ' \- Conrad : The other practical thing though is , I think on eight you can but there' s going to be other parts of town where they' re going to be I Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 18 I ' 15 and it breaks down. We can ' t do 15 there . Jim Lasher: The comments about becoming a part of the whole is real ' important in retail . That is when you' re in Southdale, you' re in Southdale and you don' t tell people you ' re on France Avenue. I 'm in Southdale and you like to be known as a part of the larger entity so that' s where this makes sense but from a pure small retailer, the only thing that makes sense to them is that people know where their business is. So we' re really working with two diametrically opposed type of systems . It would be great if they would advertise and become ' excited about their district or whatever name you end up having. That would be a wonderful scenario . Dacy: Just one more note on process . We had thought , depending on ' your reaction tonight which appears to be favorable, that we would go to the City Council also and present this and if a favorable action there, then we would have some type of informational meeting with the ' Chamber or the property owners to make them aware that this is a process that is being considered by the City and they become a part of the process . I think you all have a sense for how controversial this can grow into. As a part of that, we had been talking about doing some slides and doctoring some of the slides to take an existing picture of free standing buildings and pylons and airbrush those out and placing in a proposed sign. Would you like to see that type of s presentation before we go to the property owners? We want to make sure that the Commission feels comfortable with what we' re about to head into. We can do a lot of neat things graphically to help portray 1 the pros and cons of these issues . Conrad: You will come back and show us some alternatives so we' ll have another chance to take a look at this . Really what you ' re ' asking, after that it 's a matter of selling the Chamber of Commerce in my mind and the local businesses and I know where their minds are. They' re not going to be real wild about restricting signage and therefore to sell is really what has to be done . Typically you can sell them on the fact that they ' re not spending 10, 000. 00 to $20, 000. 00 on a pylon . That ' s what a pylon sign costs . If you can ' say that the competition is not going to be getting a jump on you, that you ' re going to be the equal of , you can save them money. What I 'm saying is you need a way to go to the Chamber and talk to them about the benefits . If that means airbrushing and showing pretty ' pictures or whatever is necessary, I think you have to do that but I think facts are as important as picture . I think you have to echo some of the ways that it' s not taking away but adding to . Emmings : Could you get pictures of this example in Carmel that you ' ve seen? Jim Lasher : I know I can get a copy of their document and I have a friend who works in Los Angeles that I may be able to coerce into driving down there some afternoon and just taking a bunch of photos . I I Planning Commission Meeting March 2, 1988 - Page 19 Emmings : I think showing an example of where this has been done well II and where it's worked . . . Ellson : Is a real good sales tool . Conrad: I don't know that Carmel is the area we want to use. Some non-descript place. . . MISCELLANEOUS ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT ISSUES . Dacy: Metal Buildings. We found, I think an excellent example from the City of Lakeville that I thought really summarized the Commission' s intent on the metal building issue and I included that so at minimum we' re recommending that the ordinance be amended to state 1.as printed there under (a) . Then second of all , I am proposing to the Commission whether or not they want to go a step farther and adopt (b) and (c) as a part of the Lakeville ordinance. (b) is just a general statement which I think can be included. (c) gets a little more detailed as far as the type of materials. That has some pros and cons . With a list of items you ' re really saying what you want to see. The con is, if something different comes along then it' s not a part of the list . I think at minimum, (a) gets at what the Commission had intended to do in the first place. Headla : What are you saying in (a) ? Unfinished steel? So if I paint it then it' s permissible? Dacy: I think the key here is the galvanized steel or the aluminum. i That type of construction, it ' s synomous with the term polebarn . Headla : I can put up a polebarn by this because that ' s baked on ' enamel paint and that' s finished steel . Dacy: No , it says no galvanized or unfinished steel , galvanized or unfinished aluminum buildings . Headla : But baked enamel is finished steel . Baked enamel on your sheet metal , that' s finished steel isn' t it? Emmings: If I had that same corregated metal that you put on a polebarn with a baked on paint finish, I ' ve seen it. I Dacy: When I spoke to the building inspector , he said that the term galvanized is what we want to prohibit because that' s the material that polebarns are made out of . Headla : No , they aren ' t . I 've got a couple. I take it back. One of my polebarns is galvanized. The other one is baked enamel . I Dacy: Maybe then what we need to do to solve your concern is add some language saying that you just don' t want a galvanized building I 11 1 -:" PLANNING )LA� �` TRANSPORTATION L�tJ A f, , `:; ENGINEERING ARCHITECTURE I BENNETT. RINGROSE, WOLSFELD. JARVIS. GARDNER. INC • THRESHER SQUARE • 700 THIP' STREET SOUTH • MINNEAPOLIS. MN 55415 • PHONE 612/370-0700 April 11, 1988 1 Ms. Barbara Dacy I City of Chanhassen Box 147 Chanhassen, MN 55317 IIDear Barb, This letter is to summarize our meeting of April 6, 1988, concerning the IChanhassen Signage Project A. City staff will prepare an information package concerning the Chanhassen ' Signage Project for the next City Council meeting. Staff will solicit com- ments and review them with BRW. No formal presentation will be made. B. BRW will proceed with preparation of Design Concepts for the District 1 Identifier signs showing single sign and multiple sign concepts. C. Slides for existing signage will be done by City staff. The following 1 sites are recommended for your review: 1. Downtown Wayzata (east end of Lake Street) 2. 50th and France District Identifier (corner of France Avenue South II and West 492 Street 3. Kenwood Strip center (West 24th or 25th Street and Hennepin Avenue South) I4. Rainbow Foods Department on Highway 5. D. Presentation to the Planning Commission of Design Concepts is scheduled for May 5, 1988. II Please call me with any questions or comments concerning these issues. ISincerely, BENNETT-RINGRI E-WOLSFELD-JARVIS-GARDNER, INC. 01 tlii. James B. Lasher APR 1 1988 JBL/l p CITY OF CHHNh IASSLN cc: Gary Ehret I Don Ringrose File: 62-8730 1 DAVID J BENNETT DONALD W RINGROSE RICHARD P WOLSFELD PETER E JARVIS LAWRENCE J GARDNER THOMAS F CARROLL CRAIG A AMUNDSEN DONALD E.HUNT MARK G SWENSON JOHN B McNAMARA DONALD L CRAIG RICHARD D PILGRIM DALE N BECKMANN DENNIS J SUTLIFF MINNEAPOLIS DENVER PHOENIX II C 1 PLANNING E Y z ® TRANSPORTATION ENGINEERING ARCHITECTURE BENNETTTT, RRIINGROSE, WOLSFELD, JARVIS, GARDNER, INC • THRESHER SQUARE • 700 THIRD STREET SOUTH • MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55415 • PHONE 612/370-0700 March 7, 1988 ' Ms. Barbara Dacy ' City of Chanhassen Box 147 Chanhassen, MN 55317 , Dear Barb, This letter is in response to the Planning Commission meeting Wednesday, March ' 2, 1988, concerning Signage for downtown Chanhassen. The following items were discussed as methodologies for moving ahead with the ' overall signage program. 1. BRW will refine and present alternates for District Pylon Signs with and without individual business signs. 2. BRW will proceed to enlarge the impacted area west to CR #17. 1 3. BRW will prepare a slide show demonstrating effective signage in downtown environments similar to Chanhassen. 4. BRW and City Staff will work with Roger Knutson concerning legal implica- tions of this program. 5. BRW will look into Entry Monument siting along Highway 5, east of the Great Plains Boulevard intersection. I believe this is the entire list of work items which the Planning Commission t asked us to pursue. Please contact me if you have any questions concerning these issues. Sincerely, ' BENNETT-RING'OSE-WOLSFELD-JARVIS-GARDNER, INC. James B. Lasher BJL/j kf MAR 8 1988 cc: Gary Ehret CITY OF CHANHASSEN I File: 62-8730 DAVID J BENNETT DONALD W RINGROSE RICHARD P WOLSFELD PETER E JARVIS LAWRENCE J GARDNER THOMAS F CARROLL CRAIG A.AMUNDSEN DONALD E.HUNT MARK G SWENSON JOHN B McNAMARA DONALD L CRAIG RICHARD D PILGRIM DALE N BECKMANN DENNIS J SUTLIFF MINNEAPOLIS DENVER PHOENIX I I : CITY OF \ ,--; :.. 1 \I f 690 COULTER DRIVE • P.O. BOX 147 • CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 - . (612) 937-1900, . CHANHASSEN I _- 1 MEMORANDUM ITO: Planning Commission _ ^ �! _.,_ _._ FROM: Barbara Dacy, City Planner �',► 1 DATE: February 25, 1988 SUBJ: Downtown Signage Concepts /2 �� IBACKGROUND I This item is brought to the Commission' s attention as a result of a series of events occurring over the last two years . The events are as follows: I 1 . As the Commission is aware, the downtown redevelopment pro- ject includes installation of public improvements such as sewer, water, storm sewer and street improvements . A criti- 1 cal part of the street improvement project was the aesthetic element. One of the objectives of the city was to improve Chanhassen' s visual image, i .e. removing overhead power lines I along West 78th Street and Great Plains Boulevard, creating areas for median trees and boulevard trees and creating a consistent form of lighting materials , both street and pedestrian oriented. Another critical element of the aesthe- 1 tic issue are signs , their number, their size and where they should be located. I 2 . The Planning Commission in response to the request by the Chamber of Commerce to install a large directional sign at the northeast corner of TH 5 and TH 101 discussed the viabi- 1 lity of creating entry signage into Chanhassen and into the downtown area. 3 . The Planning Commission also discussed area signage when 1 local developers submitted requests for off-premise signs providing direction to major subdivisions . 1 Given these three events, staff initiated a closer look at com- munity signage as well as analyzing signage in the downtown area. I 1 (7 (7- 1 Planning Commission February 25 , 1988 Page 2 ANALYSIS ' 1 . In order to achieve the objective of a clean and amenable streetscape appearance along West 78th Street, West 79th Street and Great Plains Boulevard, it appeared logical to restrict the number of signs and to limit their location to certain key areas . This idea developed into the creation of "district" signs that would give identification to a general area in the downtown. For example, signage would be located in the northeast corner of Laredo and West 78th Street. This sign would identify the "Chanhassen Square" development on the north side of West 78th Street (previously known as Retail West) . While there would be no advertising or busi- ness name on the district sign, it would help focus attention to the commercial development. This would be supplemented by attractive and consistent wall signage to be permitted on the proposed buildings. Another example would be a sign that would be located at the ' entrance north of West 78th Street between the old Chanhassen State Bank and the new bank. This sign would give iden- tification to the municipal and government offices (City Hall, Post Office, elementary school, fire station and City Center Park) . Other district signs could also be created and identifiers named after the particular type of development in which they are located. The creation of district signs in the downtown area means eliminating the ability of individual property owners to have individual pylon signs . This will be controversial; however, if adequate wall signage is permitted and if district signs are attractive and large enough to focus motorists attention, the overall result can lead to the objective of having an uncluttered streetscape. 2 . Coupled with the district sign approach would be the construction of "entrance monuments" . This sign was at the center of past discussions during recent Commission meetings, i .e. the ability to direct motorists off Hwy. 5 and into the downtown area. Proposed are entrance monuments welcoming motorists to Chanhassen to be located at the connection of Market Boulevard to TH 5 , the southeast corner of Kerber Boulevard and West 78th Street, the east side of TH 101 just north of the railroad tracks (near the Klingelhutz office building) , and two future locations at TH 5 and TH 101 (when the Chamber sign is removed) and along West 78th Street near the new intersection on TH 101 and TH 5 . Planning Commission February 25 , 1988 ' Page 3 REQUESTED ACTION The Commission should discuss these concepts and determine the ' following: 1 . Should the city pursue the concept of constructing district signs at designated locations in the downtown area as well as ' constructing entrance monuments at strategic entrances into the city? 2 . Should this concept be expanded into other commercial districts and not limited solely to the downtown redevelop- ment area? ' It is staff' s recommendation that the Planning Commission seriously consider the district signage and entry monument con- cepts for downtown Chanhassen. We strongly believe it is a cri- ' tical component of the overall appearance of the redeveloped downtown. ' Jim Lasher from BRW will be at the meeting to help in staff ' s presentation on this issue. We did not ask BRW to prepare speci- fic types of signs recognizing that the Commission' s sole motive for this evening is to decide whether or not the signage concept itself should be pursued any further. The attached graphics pro- vide a preliminary look at where district signs would be located and also provide a street level perspective. If the Planning Commission acts affirmatively on these concepts, the city would contact the Chamber of Commerce for their input prior to any type of ordinance revision or evaluation. ATTACHMENTS 1 . Proposed locations of District and Entry monument signs . ' 2 . Perspective drawings . 3 . City Council minutes dated January 12 , 1987 . 4 . Planning Commission minutes dated December 10 , 1986 . ' 5 . Planning Commission minutes dated November 19 , 1986 . 6 . Planning Commission minutes dated November 5 , 1986 . t 'I ' lip I 11 I ' I 11 i -- - j V 77TH ST. I a ❑ a l l I a ] I _ _- _- , __ l r --.--.---'- ----'--II t L Nam 81 0 I 1 I I I �- - °e IY I I r- 0O r-- I II L Ill ( ❑ , j `_ I of -- C' IE I j ! I i -1 I1 �i,� r 1 I District 6 y , o �.. I v I I m r Iii I I I I i DI ' _ - _ .____ F]p(Y VIFW _, i�i ! `� Z� It I I 1, 1 I 1 I. t_, I� ,I r_._J I i I �� -I i a l 1 d r'''t, a O -ENTER'STREET 1 _ _� a --DEN w 1 i i.jl -- -- l I �V _�. i M, s' TION i w I_ �IIIAJOR VEHICUL (_ ii A T �.�09 r7-7---7—�—� I I ENTRY S i District z I 1 I I I ! 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PGUldls � ip root © I I o Increase business visibility i J 1 ©Yll� _ l from within the development ' 1- �I , o color and desi n should be e compatible with each specific■ ILL 1- business , 1 'T 't__ 1 1 CHANHASSEN COMMERCIAL CONCEPT SIGN STUDY E 8"E" —T , _w_,. —,o ,00 ,00 February 23,1181 t • , • lok (Avf 41j).(4Y1 IN N. . DISTRICT IDENTIFICATION PYLON 401 " �,/�✓�J '�� o Visable element from roadside {� W o Architecture to be similar throughout ,� +J 1• entire CBD U` o Graphics to Identify district only-no r),P,1, I l.t ,,,1\ , �• / • Individual business signs J ,'� J V U ,. \ ' A • �' rf - -\r1.1"Uu.0 —. ,,,,. Lif■'IOW., ,4.e'1 • _4 , ,..ar :. , F tiNrly,71,1,, r 1 UJ 1 0•' j�n, J` ,�:T. `W �` 'Nn� ■ / "�y-r' _ '__ - o-1 �r 0o • e ►�`� {r ^ . yip,�1,-', :fir■t 1∎• $L"",,...#.44,---.GL rAilt"tylfy+[' tom ''•W w'4.- L - :: .rte/J ` o.. '�' �t.- '.V•0°.:'''''�_'_\� 'fi I I Lai • -nlT a �_ :'1�,' ,_..-- -=.�_- ---,-,:,-- --'6----"L•14:� ;'�• ii • T¢ ' 7,•°. 0. te r:1 . • j r"�^'- ,i!.' Ips l i --44;.r ■�i r1 � i i0irr% � .t Mt AO N_t*ii tp t) it o t ��lrr.._ a__e u-�t� `ally �L — C ( /•r{1 _ma � ^l _ �;_ ya, 1l �;�w.Ni� i ,11 'p I■� i ' •_ ' - , --- - •• 't*--'' r - - . �- ._ • 71, ___ET_ . i ,. --7 L /� r % •.■ \ / Retail \\ / \� _/ -% West i — — —_ -9 En= MUal _ — 1111f111 111'1111 BROOKS. Pack&Post 1111'1111 'CHAN PIZZA STATIONARY - �■. ..1. 111.1111111111111•1111. Mai ! 1 f I I L ■1111', ,m I ■ Tuni■an ono sou ■■. . r i � ;_ ■ :■ is CHANHASSEN COMMERCIAL CONCEPT iNGIONSIIINDlim IN No NE — EN EN EN ma EN = — ag City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 is that it be a Phase I project. I would lik e to delete that term and put no constraints on this committee so they have to hurry up and get the job done ' just so we can get something in the ground. I do not consider this a Phase I project. It will be done when the committee is ready to make their report and it shouldn't be carved out. The first thing that we do in the redevelopment ' of our downtown, if the group decides that it should be ?laced in the downtown, so that there is language to that effect in this document so I would like to, with that understanding, suggest that it not be a Phase I consideration. Brad Johnson: I think I agree with Dale and Clark about the location. I guess our concern is primarily that we put it in the downtown area because ' there was already space downtown for a center which we realize is still there and that's the only reason why we put it there. The urgency that we have on timing is simply that we will begin planning of that whole block area this ' summer. We would just like to have an indication of whether it will be there or not and we can plan around that. I think the same goes for the local traffic. A lot of things that will happen in the downtown area in the planning process, we will need to know about that time if that site is a good site or not but other than that I agree. I think we should look at all sites and decide where the best place is and I appreciate what you've done. It's exactly what we're looking for. ' Councilman Johnson: Do we need a motion to establish a community center advisory committee? We assigned Bill to it but we haven't had a motion yet to make the committee so I would like to make a motion to create the committee that we just assigned Bill to in terms of what Dale and Clark have been talking about. It is a City wide search and review of the feasibility of having this community center. ' Councilman Johnson moved, Mayor Hamilton seconded to establish a Community Center Task Force. All voted in favor and motion carried. Greg: This is a minor problem but I think if you have three people at large, I think just as my own comments as a member of the 0 A or others, there are ' senior organizations, there are probably more spots to make up the committee. You're probably talking about five outside people that would have great interest in different things. ' Mayor Hamilton: I'm not sure if you get a person from every interest group on there, I think the larger the committee the more difficult it is to get anything accomplished so if you bring those people in an advisory capacity and ' ask for their opinions and ideas is probaby the best way to handle some of the others at least from my standpoint. Don Ashworth: Did that include authorization for Staff to advertise? Mayor Hamilton: Yes. ' DISCUSSION OF CHAMBER SIGN PROPOSAL. Mayor Hamilton: Gary Brown who is President of the Chamber is here with us 14 1 City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 and I guess I would just like to preface any remarks that Gary might want to add just to say that the Chamber that I've been active in for quite a few years has worked on this sign for maybe four years now and I was a little disturbed when they went to the Planning Commission to see some of the comments, as Gary was, that were made about the sign. It isn't something that has been hidden in the closet for all these years. It has been brought up at about every Chamber meeting for the last four years. I think they genuinely need a sign and I think they should have a sign and some of the comments that were made were being kind of futuristic to what is going to be happening to the City. I don't think they can predict that. We need to have a sign now to help the Chamber and most of all my biggest concern is that the City work with the Chamber. After all the Chamber of Commerce, the people who are members of the Chamber are the City. They are business people in the City to make things happen here who play a major role in this City. To see the kind of things that were said previously at the Planning Commission meeting I guess were addressing the need, looked like an attempt to just knock them down without giving a chance to say anything or to have any respect for what their wishes were. Councilman Horn: I was disturbed when I read the Planning Commission Minutes also. It occurred to me that there was quite a bit of confusion on the Planning Commission's part between what was really happening and what the activities of the Chamber were and the fact that there didn't seem to be any coordination with that and the BRW and what they were doing downtown. I think that BRW had spoken with Gary and his group and some of that confusion was... Gary Brown: They got confused between what we were trying to sell an idea on, the sign that we wanted to put up, between that and BRW and they got such a mix-up there that they didn't understand really which sign they were talking about at any one time. The guy from BRW did say that night that he wanted to come back and talk to me later about this sign thing which was the first part of November maybe and he hasn't come back or answered any of my calls yet so I guess I'm not too excited about waiting for him any longer. ' Barbara Dacy: Mr. Lasher was in Europe after that meeting on December 10th. He was supposed to return January 7th. Councilman Horn: Is he the only one at BRW that can work on this? Don't they designate someone else when they leave something hanging like this? Barbara Dacy: Actually, to be frank, Staff did not ask BRW to authorize the work function until we had your approval and this is part of the request tonight. The direction from the Planning Commission was mixed and Staff didn't really feel comfortable authorizing BRW to expend those funds until you saw this proposal. Councilman Horn: I think the concern the Planning Commission had was valid in that there is such a vast difference between what the two signs were in terms of architectural, ink, materials and everything else that I can see how they would have a problem trying to get things to blend together. 1 15 11 4 City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 Councilman Geving: I think this is the kind of issue where we've got too many ' players in the game. We've got the HRA involved, we've got the BRW, City Council, Chamber. It's the kind of issue where everybody is going to have an idea and opinion about how best to do this and my personal opinion is that we ought to assign Barb Dacy to this project. She can work directly with the ' Chamber. She can come back together with the City Council. We'll make the decision and be done with it. I know that we have to respect everybody else involved but we're not going to get this done if we get too many players still ' in the game. I would like to limit it to just the Chamber and City Council and be done with it and have Barb act as our go between. Would you agree to that Tom? That's the way I see this whole thing because we've been going on with this for two years now. I think it's been two years. I don't know how ' many years but let's get on with it and I think we can do it ourselves without having to get too many outside interests involved and I think whatever. I'm flexible and I think the Council is pretty flexible on these designs and if we can create and get this job done and get the signs up this spring. Mayor Hamilton: When the BRW thing came in was a total surprise to me. All the talking about signs with the Chamber has been going on and everybody has known about it who has had any interest in it and the Chamber has been wanting to put one up. Put up the darn sign. That's a totally different sign than the one that BRW suddenly is talking about and got thrown in there at the last ' minute and I think there is another proposal now that is going to muddy the waters even more and I don't think that has any effect on the Chamber sign and that may be a better proposal than the ones we've seen here with the BRW signs and that's down byRick Murray's office building. He's agreed to perhaps change his signage so that it says Welcome to Chanhassen. ' Gary Brown: He's got a real good idea there. Let's not throw this into this issue. Mayor Hamilton: The sign that the Chamber has proposed and is recommending is a sign that is going to serve their purposes. It's modular and will have the names of the companies that need to be on there, that want to be on there and are willing to pay the $1,000.00 or whatever it is going to cost. It's not a cheap sign to put up. It's going to be a nice looking sign. The back is going to say Welcome to Chanhassen. Councilman Johnson: I do believe that the Planning Commission did get, ' there was a lot of issues mixed in here. I think a lot of real good points were brought up and I agree with a lot of stuff the Planning Commission did. What I really like is towards the end they got into saying, hey wait a minute, you're asking for several years. You're not asking for the next 20 years that this will be the sign and when I'm looking at 3 to 4 years, put a time limit upon this sign a little ways down the road so we're not looking to put up the HRA's signs in the next 6 months or anything that I can tell. It's a ways off as of yet. I like their idea of putting this sign up and guaranteeing them a length of time for their investment and using the sign to add on signage to see how effective is this sign and what can we do to make it ' more effective, the locations and stuff like that. It would be worthwhile to the City for it's signing problems and I agree, let's keep the other signs out of this at this point. 16 I r City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 Councilman Boyt: I thought the Planning Commission did a pretty good job of identifying some issues here and one of them, you said it took a 3 year period, you estimated as a payback. If you could have the sign up for 3 years you felt that was close to break even. I think that should figure in the plan. I think it would be worth the Council discussing because as the Planning Commission mentions, they recommend at the end that this is going to come down to a City Council decision and they have pretty much said what they had to say and recommended that it quickly move to us for a speedy resolution. I would like to see something done. I thought there was a lot of discussion about the importance of having some consistency with our sign ideas. I know from what you've told me Mr. Mayor, you've been at this for quite a while, if a phone call or two here right now would help this, I think that would be time well spent. Gary Brown: I think what the Planning Commission was saying and what we talked about too was the fact that whatever type of letters get used on the sign, everybody uses the same thing and I don't think anybody will have . problems with that. If we're going to spend that much on a sign, we want it to look nice. i Councilman Boyt: My other point that I thought was discussed pretty thoroughly here was the business about a slow down sign before they came to your sign. Something along the line that this is Chanhassen. Remember that discussion? Gary Brown: No. ' Councilman Boyt: It's in here where Ladd Conrad, whom I imagine has more experience than any of us sitting here on doing outdoor signs, said that reading a sign was quite a challenge. That you had mentioned 20 inch letters which seem rather substantial to me until Conrad points out that 18 inches is the minimum letter height that Naegele will accept on their signs. A little different purpose but maybe they face the same kind of challenge of traffic quickly going by. You also mentioned that this might slow it down more than we want so I think there is something to be said for a coordinated effort signwise and I think you all said that at this December 10th meeting. My last point is that you mentioned there might be some justification, or you and the Planning Commission talked about the City's involvement in the cost of this sign to accomplish what the City wants to do. Gary Brown: That was simply because it was brought up there to have Welcome to Chanhassen on it and the slogan and Maple Leaf or whatever and I said if the City wish to partake in a piece of that sign we could probably take care of that but now seeing that BRW wants to put up Welcome to Chanhassen signs wherever they may be, I guess you wouldn't need that. Councilman Boyt: I think we're talking about I would like to have some sort of coordinated sign. I recognize that you have a time constraint. I also recognize that you are going to do something to work out as much as you can of a compromise with this thing. Looking at a minimum of a 3 year life on your sign. I'm suggesting that another area, and I would like to know what the rest of the Council thinks about this, it might be worth discussing is would 17 City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 there be a benefit to all concerned if the City got involved in part of this I sign? Gary Brown: My personal feeling would be no. Let's leave the City out of the sign business. Let's have Chanhassen Population 6,400 and leave it at that. The City has something to sell and it's the city. I don't think it is going to pay for than to be on a sign with the service station, restaurant and bar. Mayor Hamilton: I think it's really unfortunate that BRW got involved in this thing at all. That anything even came up about BRW because the only thing you should be considering is the sign that was proposed by the Chamber and we suddenly start saying that this sign has to be consistent with any sign that BRW might do-.they are unfamiliar with the Chamber and trying to have signs that look alike. This sign is a sign that serves a purpose and that is to ' advertise the businesses that in the downtown area and give you some direction as to where you go. It is taking the place of the directional sign that was on the northwest corner of the intersection of TH 101 and TH 5 which really nobody could read. The letters were so small, you couldn't see them and by the time you saw the sign you were past the intersection to turn anyway so that was a Chamber sign and the reason. .. Councilman Geving: That was a City sign. We paid $5,000.00. Mayor Hamilton: It was serving a purpose for the Chamber but this one, we wanted to take that one down and put this one in it's place prior to that intersection so people can see it before they turn off. Gary Brown: We realize it isn't perfect and nothing is going to be but let's ' put the thing up and then we know if we blow it, we know next time to try something different. Mayor Hamilton: There have been so many people involved in this thing. You talked to the sign people and if this is their recommendation. The Chamber has looked at it and it seems to serve it's purpose. I'm going to recommend approval of issuance of the sign permit for the Chamber of Commerce without conditions. These two things here, 1 and 2, they should probably be done but not as a part of this issuance. ' Mayor Hamilton moved, Councilman Horn seconded to authorize issuance of the sign permit for the Chamber of Commerce with City Council review in five years. All voted in favor except Councilman Boyt who opposed and the motion ' carried. Councilman Boyt: It would seem to me that you're probably not going to put this sign in the ground over the next two months. ' Gary Brown: Why? Councilman Boyt: I would suspect that the ground is going to freeze. Are you going to go ahead and put it in? 18 r X75 r City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 Gary Brown: I don't want to take a chance on somebody coming back in 6 weeks from now and saying we're going to change this so you can't. I Councilman Boyt: As it stands now, unless we can get some sort of agreement to commit to talking to BRW to at least get the letters and the exterior of the sign of common material, I vote against this but if I can get that kind of commitment, you've got my vote. Mayor Hamilton: The BRW should have nothing to do with this. I Councilman Johnson: I can't see how the BRW, at this point they have given us some basic signs with one type of lettering. I don't think they have really looked into the sign problem too much. I haven't found anything too wild about their signage yet either. I personally agree with the Planning Commission when they call the BRW signage like a subdivision signage. It looks like we coming into the Chanhassen subdivision, not the City of Chanhassen so I'm not too terribly impressed with their signage either. Mayor Hamilton: I agree with you. I don't know if I've seen anything from I BRW. Councilman Johnson: I think it would really delay it to try and get something out of BRW. Gary Brown: The picture that you're looking at doesn't really give you what 11 it's made out of. I got to go along with you. It doesn't show you what you're looking for but why don't you let Barb and I run through what the thing is going to be made of and present it back here at the next meeting and either give us the thumbs up and let's put it in the ground or let's forget the whole thing. Councilman Geving: I don't think that was the motion. I think the motion said go with this thing. Work with our City Staff and do it. Gary Brown: That's better yet. Councilman Geving: That's the way I read the motion. Barbara Dacy: As proposed in there. ' Councilman Boyt: It would help me if someone would read the motion because I didn't get that. Mayor Hamilton: The motion was, I moved to approve the issuance of a sign permit for the building of the Chamber sign without conditions as depicted here on Attachment 3. Don Ashworth: Is there a timing associated with this 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? i Mayor Hamilton: No. 1 19 r7 I- City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 Councilman Johnson: I would like to see 4-5 years put on it. Mayor Hamilton: I guess I'm not concerned about that because as the town grows they are going to want to change the signage anyway and I think it is going to be one of those things that's going to become automatically obsolete and they are going to either want to put a bigger one. Councilman Johnson: I would like to at least guarantee them 3 years because if we come in 2 years and say we want to change his signage then we have done a disservice to them. Mayor Hamilton: There's no time period on there so what I'm saying is they can put the sign up and the growth of the town can dictate when they want to change. They may come back in 2 years and say it's not big enough. We want to put in a bigger one. That would be great. Gary Brown: If we have to keep adding to it, it will be great for everybody. Councilman Boyt: I agree. We add to the sign, so much the better. I think that this looks to me like an attractive sign. When we put it up I think it is going to have impact on the rest of the signs that go up in Chanhassen so I don't take this lightly. If we're going to put other signs up that welcome people to Chanhassen, they are going to have to be consistent with what you put in the ground already. I think it is conceivable that BRW would come back with a very acceptable sign that would not be consistent with this and I think we should have some sort of an opportunity to ask to have this sign removed in the future and maybe that's 3 years, maybe that's 5 years. Mayor Hamilton: Pat, you've always been very active in signage, do you have any comments? Pat Swenson: The only thing that I am bothered with is the one that I've always had is that I would certainly like to see conformity. If you're thinking of investing a considerable amount of money, for the Chamber's benefit as well as the City's benefit, not to have things that are going to conflict with each other. That would be my own opinion. If in fact the streetscape comes in with something. I have no idea what the material is. I don't even know what we're talking about. I can't say at this particular time but if those of you who have seen it, it's tasteful and it looks like something you would like the rest of the street signs to look like, I would have to leave that to your discretion. I would hate to put a sign up that would fit in with the streetscape that is being considered but having not seen it Tom I can't speak. Don Ashworth: I just talked to Roger. I think the Chamber is happy with a time limitation of 3, 4 or 5 years. Again, I would strongly recommend that. In 5 years they can come back, make a reapplication and if you decide to extend it that's fine. If, in contrast though, they would desire to leave it and the City Council wanted it down, you would have to pay to get it down. Just so you realize that. We would literally end up condemning it and paying for it to have it removed if we did not put a time limit on it. 20 (7 1771 City Council Meeting - January 12, 1987 Councilman Geving: Kind of like a conditional use. Mayor Hamilton: I can put in the motion for review in 5 years. I think that would be fine. Councilman Johnson: Gary, do you have any better drawings as of this date ' then this sketch that is a couple months old now. Gary Brown: Yes, I do. That one's been passed around and recopied so many times. Pat Swenson: Tom, may I ask what the proposed color is of the aluminum and 111 the color of the lettering? Gary Brown: White and black. White background with black letters. Councilman Johnson: What about the back of the sign that is metal with the Welcome to Chanhassen on it? Is that going to be a piece of sheet metal with Welcome to Chanhassen in black letters on white? Gary Brown: In the original go around, the last time we had any discussion about it, it was brought up about lighting the backside. Making that a lexan back or plastic back, whatever, and lighting that also. Councilman Johnson: Because the backs important too for people going eastbound. Barbara Dacy: A final point. I found out late Friday afternoon that you will have to apply for a MnDot permit as well. ' Mayor Hamilton: I think that having the approval of the City is going to be just a matter of a formality for MnDot to get. .. ' Barbara Dacy: They have their supplement rules based on the Federal Beautification Acts for State Highways and so on. It didn't appear to be a problem when I talked to the guy at MnDot. I ESTABLISH SCHEDULE FOR ORDINANCE CODIFICATION PROCESS. Councilman Horn moved, Councilman Geving seconded to set the dates of January 28, 1987 and February 2, 1987 at 5:30 p.m. as Worksession dates for codifica- tion of the Ordinance. All voted in favor and motion carried. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: A. NOMINATION FOR METROPOLITAN COUNCIL DISTRICT 14 REPRESENTATIVE, COUNCILMAN JOHNSON. Mayor Hamilton: Jay Johnson went to the meeting with the other communities and the attached memo here tells what took place. I guess your comment that Marcy will be more effective in getting other Metropolitan Council members to vote in favor of items which will help District 14. I think Ray has come 21 1 Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 10 illir Emmings: Yes, absolutely, I would separate them. IConrad : You take away all the grass I suppose. IJim Lasher: That's the problem. We're running into like a 10 foot maximum space that we have now and that's not a lot of space to put in trees. Now if we take 6 of that away, we've got 4. It doesn't kill it but it just changes the whole aspect of this thing. That's not in the design Idevelopment. If indeed you want to pursue that avenue, we may have to change the median and road design. Conrad: I think the greenery on the street though is real important. I think that is priority. People traffic is second. Walking pedestrian traffic is second priority and I would want to see ways for bicyclist to Iget into town. I'm not terribly concerned about how they move throughtout the the town as long as there are bike racks so they can park their bikes. They're not going to be biking from store to store. They may be walking so if you- can get them, and I don't think it's in your design , but if we can Iget the bicyclist into town, then I think the bikeways is not a priority for them. IJim Lasher: It just kind of takes care of itself and I just hope that it doesn't happen that we would go through and construct a nice bikepath and do some compromising in plantings and then have everyone use the street nyway. I don't know if that would happen but I think it would be real ad . Conrad: The last issue that I think we should talk about is signage. Any Icomments on what was presented in the presentation? Wildermuth: I liked the size of these. I liked the accents of the clock Itower . Conrad: Jerri , do you want to jump in or Gary, do you have any thoughts on? IGary Brown: When you're ready, I would like to make a couple of comments. I guess I would like to back this thing up just a little bit to the INovember 19th meeting if I could for just a second. There were a few omments made there that were I guess a little confusing to us at the Chamber of Commerce. I guess I'll start with yours Ladd. I guess your feeling was , I don't know if you folks were mucky-mucky around or I was I mucky-mucky around on this thing but the 8 little signs , as far as being legible. I did a little study on this since I read this thing and we've got a capability of putting 22 inch letters in the sign we want to present Ion the corner. Your basic highway sign on the freeway that shows you where Chanhassen is is 9 inches . That ' s one feeling I had there. IIEmmings: What page are you on? Are you looking at the Minutes? ._ ary Brown: Yes . On page 26 . I ' ll drop down to Mr . Noziska ' s. . . I eV7,0 ( C Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 11 Conrad: Let's follow up on that. What do you think on some of my comments, as Chanhassen grows, eight signs obviously are not going to take care of all the businesses so how do you see managing that? I think you are going to create hassles . Gary Brown: We' re not worried about it. Conrad: Wait until it happens . Gary Brown: I guess we're going to have to take care of today's business today and when we get to a number of businesses that are going to require it, I guess we're going to have to jump that hurdle. It's not an easy thing for you folks to decide on a sign as well as us. We've been going through this forever. I've been in town here for 16 years and I know a sign system is an ongoing battle which will be for the next 50 years. We had a couple other comments though that I wanted to bring up on this thing about Mr. Noziska's deal here on he wanted a nice sign that said a place to grow or something rather than Joe's Bar and Grill and Suzy's Sauna. We aren't going to have that. I'm just doing this in defense so we can come back to it. Anyway, we drop down to Mr. Emming's comments here as to he thinks everything is fine but limiting the number of spaces for businesses is just ridiculous. I can't imagine why they want to do it. The reason we want to do it is the fact that we don't feel that there is going to be more than eight businesses that are going to be concerned that are going to want •o put a sign up. If they are, it's going to be real surprising to us - -necause we've done some testing, lobbying, whatever on it and to get eight is going to be about as much as you are going to go but the one thing that might passify you a little bit is on the top of that sign we will have Chanhassen in great big letters, Dinner Theater. Okay, it's going to identify the City of Chanhassen and people identify the Dinner Theater as being Chanhassen wherever you go, no matter what you do. That's why that. I don't know this gentlement , I wish he was here so I could find out what was absolutely horrible about this sign. I guess we're not developers but we did spend some time on this . Emmings : I know I 'm here and I said I thought it looked awful and I still think it looks awful but I don't know if we're talking about the same sign. Gary Brown: This is on the Chamber's part of this and I assume that this commentary stayed in line according to the Chamber because it mentions the Chamber all the way through this thing . Dacy: The copy of the Chamber sign was in your packet as well as some of the preliminary designs that. . . Emmings: I didn't like the BRW signs and like this one that was presented 1 tonight. Gary Brown: Maybe you guys had two signs going at one time here or something. i Planning Commission Meeting Iltfecember 10, 1986 - Page 12 Conrad: We had several but I'm not sure that we're reacting to the right Isigns. Emmings: Let's assume that the BRW sign was up. That's the one that I II said that looks like it belongs on a subdivision. I didn't like it for the City and I don't mean to be discourteous or rude to you either but that was my reaction when I saw it and I don't think I could design a better one but II would try. Let's say that that is sitting out there where he just showed us it would be on Great Plains as you turn up from TH 5. Where would this sign with the business names that you are proposing in relation to that one? IGary Brown: Okay, if you are familiar with the corner. You'll see on TH 5 we have a gas/carwash sign that faces the highway. Our idea is to take Ithat down and move the sign towards the Hanus property, about as far as we can get it. That will give the people ample time to use their signal and get in the turning lane and get into town. The big problem was and the big hassle they had with the old sign that the City did tear down was that by 1 the time the people saw the sign they were already through the town. Emmings: If they were coming west on TH 5, they would see the sign for the Ibusinesses before they would see the sign for the entrance to the City? Gary Brown: I don't know where you want to put the entrance to the City ign . 1r Jim Lasher : Is this where you are proposing for your sign? IJerri Martin: No, that ' s the west side. Dacy: That was the former location of the City sign and the Chamber is I talking about across the street. III Jim Lasher : This is where the other entry is proposed . IIGary Brown: On the other side. That's great then we'll have both sides of the road covered . IConrad: Sequentially stating you're right. The Chamber sign would be very close, right on TH 5 and after you pass that and you make your turn in and get close to the railroad tracks, that's when you see Welcome to Chanhassen Isign. It 's a little bit backwards . Emmings: It seems like it to me. You plan these things. Does it seem like it ought to be working that way? IJim Lasher : It just depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want to make the main statement about announcing businesses then it doesn't make IIany sense. If you want to announce the City of Chanhassen, then where does the City of Chanhassen begin and if you want it at the beginning then we've A._ icked the wrong place. I have chosen the point where I saw the most I II C Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 13 visibility and most aspect to look at upon entering into the downtown area. That was the rationale behind my choice. i Emmings : Yes , but you' re already in town by the time you see that sign. Gary Brown: Wouldn't you want to put the entrance to the City at the entrance to the City? Jim Lasher: I agree. You probably put the clutter and business point at this area right here would not make an entry statement like this. You just wouldn't move down here well. This entry up in here was more a statement of entering into the downtown core and not entering into the aspect of the City of Chanhassen which obviously includes portions on this side of the street as well. There is a secondary entry monument at this point right here that says City of Chanhassen as well and the main point of this one, II because of the increase created at this point, the aspect of visual of this point right here is very strong. This is the reason why we chose this point plus the fact that we already own the land so there was some rationale behind that positioning. If you wanted to do another sign down here, I guess it's a moot point as far as how we want to announce the business at this point here when we do have an entry sign at this position here already proposed and one here and one here and one here. , Dacy: They were talking about a sign right here. This is the Ward Estate •roperty so your introduction is right here. Gary Brown: They are on the Legion Property right here correct? Dacy: No, they' re in front of the Holiday. ' Gary Brown: Oh, that's where the old sign was so you're by town already when you see it. That was the problem with the old sign. That once you saw the sign, you're on your way to Victoria. We need to announce Chanhassen so you have time to do something about Chanhassen. Am I right? Emmings: I agree with you completely and that's as far as the traffic on TH 5 is concerned that is westbound. Now is the sign you are proposing going to have business names, are you going to have anything for people going eastbound on TH 5? ' Gary Brown: No. Emmings: Because they can see Chanhassen, is that the idea? What about if TH 169 goes in and we're supposedly going to have a lot of traffic diverted off of TH 5 and onto TH 169 . Gary Brown: You talking about TH 212 maybe? Emmings: Yes, TH 212. So we divert it on TH 212, you're not going to worry about that, that's too far away? 11 II fr- (' Planning Commission Meeting I December 10, 1986 - Page 14 Gary Brown: We're not going to live that long. I think a beautiful sign 1 III is a great idea but I think you're putting it in absolutely the wrong place. IJim Lasher: I guess at this point we've got to be a little careful with property here because when TH 5 expands there is going to be a major right hand turn condition coming through here so we' ll have to think about that. IGary Brown: I guess the idea of going in there was the fact that yes , we have some visibility, the people have something do with it, seeing we have the property already, we don ' t have to buy any property. IIDacy: Maybe the recommendation from the Commission could be that they recommend that the HRA and City Council authorize BRW to work with the Chamber and the Staff to see if some kind of combination between entrance I and directional signage can be achieved. Jerri Martin : Ideally, people even stop at my office and say where is the IDinner Theater? Emmings : I don ' t know where your office is located . IIJerri Martin: Chanhassen Office Complex. That is right after you get into Chanhassen so that is the ideal spot to start welcoming them. The next pot they stop is at Guy' s and believe me he gets the people. II Emmings : Who is that? IIJerri Martin: The Taco Shoppe. The next stop they make is at Gary's and I 've been there at 5 : 30-5 : 45 and you can just direct people. IEmmings : Okay, if you have the sign with the business names on it , it doesn't tell them what to do to get there. If they are trying to find a certain business and they see the name on the sign, that doesn't help them find it. They are still going to have to stop and ask directions . IGary Brown: We ' re going to have arrows on every sign. IEmmings: Won ' t they all be pointing the same way? Gary Brown : A majority of them will , yes . IEmmings: Well, what's the point? I think those are the kinds of problems that have to be addressed. If you just put your name up there and they are already looking for you, it doesn't help them a bit and all the arrows " pointing to the right , that doens ' t help them either . Maybe it does . Jerri Martin: All the arrows from that old sign did the same thing anyway. IIConrad: Timewise, Gary, you are ready to jump into this thing. You've got N,he approval of the Chamber and you are ready to go right? II Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 15 Gary Brown: Yes . Conrad : What life of your signage do you need to pay for it? How long does it need to be up to make it financially. . . Gary Brown: Three years minimum. ' Conrad: How long are we going to be until we really have some of the elements of the plan tonight? We are a ways off from seeing some of these elements going to effect . Dacy: The City Council will be establishing a public hearing date about the feasibility study at their next Council meeting next Monday and that will probably occur in February or March. Council is on a fairly ambitious timeframe to get these improvements accomplished. Again, on the streetscape, where we have the water and storm sewer objective to achieve also so I think we can work with the Chamber over the winter and try to achieve something so they can install a sign this spring or summer . Conrad: Their sign. The Chamber ' s sign. Jerri Martin: This has been something that some of these businesses have needed desparately for a long, long time and it's continued to build and build and build. They don't know where the motel is. They need some type f of direction. They don ' t know where some of the restaurants are. A, Gary Brown: We don't think we've got the perfect answer here at all but it' s a start. Conrad: I'm pretty sensitive to signage needs. I work with Naegle all the ' time and the smallest letter they will put on a billboard is 18 inches. You should not put more than six words on there. You don't have a 36 foot sign so that's where my comments come from. I worry that we really haven' t said Chanhassen. That's my biggest concern. I think announcing Chanhassen once you are in it is nice from a community continuity but it hasn't helped any retailer or service establishment and what we need is signage down by Jerri's office and we need signage before TH 101. We need reinforcement signage before right by Hanus property and then when we get into some of the detail signage as far as facilities, we've got to slow traffic down to see your sign and if we don't slow them down, they don't have a chance to see our sign so that's my concern Barbara is that so far the needs that I see are kind of outside the study area. I think we have to incorporate signage requirements before you get to TH 101 and how we actually slow people down. I don't know how we move them to TH 101 and how we tell they to keep going straight ahead to get into downtown but that has to happen and that should be coordinated with what I saw today. Personally, I don't have a problem with the Chamber's signage because I think it may help the businesses but it doesn't accomplish the Chanhassen identity that I would like to see and they are kind of separate issues to me. I feel that the Chamber should be assisted to get that signage up as long as I don't have to make an either or decision. 1 I 1 Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 16 II Gary Brown: Would you like us to incorporate the Welcome to Chanhassen in our sign and of course, if you would like to do that you would like to pick up part of the tab to do that I 'm sure. II Conrad: I think it's worthwhile, yes. I think that's appropriate unless the City has another plan , I think that ' s real appropriate. I Gary Brown: As long as you have your developer right here, maybe he can come up with an idea that will make us both happy but we don't want to wait three months to do it. II Jim Lasher : I think if we are going to have any continuity in the whole sign scheme, we have to get back to the 2 or 3 simple basic materials. To have every sign made out of a different material doesn't make any sense 1 because we need the image so if we've got something going with some stone and some brick and some lettering that I think we need to try and incorporate a little bit of that. Color, texture, form, the whole thing into a sign that you want to do maybe and if there is a lettering style I that we looked at that we feel comfortable with, I think we should try and look at lettering style. II Gary Brown: I think it looks better if we stay with the same type of lettering. I agree with that 100% . IrJim Lasher: Three simple things and if we could do that it would probably work. Gary Brown: If you would like us to go over this thing and see if we can IIcome to a compromise, we would be more than happy to do so. Conrad: I'm not sure I'm looking for a compromise. I personally am looking I for a way that Chanhassen has to make a statement out on TH 5 and so far I haven't seen it until you get into town, which I like also but if I were a storeowner, you've got to slow the traffic down and I don't think your sign Gary is going to do it. Chanhassen has to come up with their own sign to I slow the traffic down to say, Chanhassen Turn Right for downtown business. That ' s what important to me. I Jim Lasher : If we step outside the project area and announce the City and then announce the businesses, it makes more sense that way. You alert people that there is a city up here , coming up, slow down , there might be I something hot happening there and then you start introducing a series of signs with the same material, lettering, along there that, I don't know if the directional arrow thing makes any sense, maybe it does but just the continuity factor would be so much better coming along this area to just I say Chanhassen and then do some directional things if that turned out the best way to do it. Llke you said, just a big announcment and then a couple of small signs or however big the signs should be. After we say this is I II J (7 c , Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 17 `Chanhassen, this is not someone's retail district. This is the City of Chanhassen. I think you are correct in saying that this should happen ' first. It's too bad it's outside our study area. If we were to enlarge the area along TH 5 to start looking at some alternatives, we can do that. Conrad: Barbara, based on what you hear us talking about, and I'm not ' trying to raise the consultant's fees, I'm certainly sensitive to budgets and what have you, what would you recommend? I'm not sure that I 'm speaking for everybody here either but what do you recommend that we do? Dacy: I know the Mayor and I think the Council would agree with the discussion that we just had about going outside of the project area and , coming up with maybe a more complete identification plan. I think we can continue on a process to at least get you to a point where a sign could be installed that would work for us at this point. The City Council and HRA still need to review these plans in detail but it is kind of a broad brush stroke that the Planning Commission has had. I think that you may need to come to additional meetings before the Council and the HRA. I think they will agree with what has gone on but they need to hear that from you as , well . In the meantime you can still continue to do that. Gary Brown: In other words , don' t dig the hole tomorrow. , Conrad: Are you ready to? s,ary Brown: I would say we are. I think we've got everything covered as far as costs and construction. Dacy: But you see the Council or the HRA hasn't decided on a lettering type, stone, illuminated, whatever. They haven't made those specific types of choices. The Chamber has but you have to go that extra step. Gary Brown: I think we should bear in mind also is the fact that we' re , working with what will amount for the simple fact of cost more than anything. Trying to hold the cost down to the businesses that are going to have to purchase this sign. Our sign isn't going to look anything as elaborate as that but we don' t have $40 ,000. 00 to put into a sign either . Dacy: The cost issue, the HRA and Council may want to participate then . ' Gary Brown: That would be great, sure. Emmings: This is just a suggestion maybe, why couldn't they put up the ' sign they want with some input. We're all kind of wondering whether a sign is going to do what they hope it will do and how many people will want space and so forth, why couldn't we view it essentially as an experiment to figure out whether it is a good location or whether it is having the desired impact with the thought that it would be replaced once we figure out what the sign will look like to announce the City or maybe incorporate it. Maybe we will learn something from it that will help us put up a ( atter sign later. If we look it as just a temporary thing. I know if you 1 I �1 , Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 18 are putting your money into it I P g y y you don't want to look but at that point, maybe the City would be willing to participate to clean the whole thing up. The other thing, it seems to me is the design of it, it ought to be done in some way so that a second sign could be put right along side of it that 1 looks like the first one in case the demand for space is greater. It ought to be like a component that would be matched and still look good . Gary Brown: A modular . . . 1 Emmings: A modular idea so that if you wind up having more interest than you think you do, it can be expanded and still look good. Those are the IIthings that I think I would be interested in. Gary Brown: I would not be opposed to that . IDacy: That is another option that we can explore. Conrad: I don't see a real problem letting the Chamber go ahead as long as 1 we're studying the need for Chanhassen announcement on TH 5. I guess I'm more sensitive timing wise. The Chamber has been working on this for a long time and it will help businesses. 1 Emmings: But it seems to me it ought to be on the condition that if it doesn ' t fit into the future plan , then it has to get out. If: Conrad: That condition really makes you feel kind of nervous. There may be some negatives to that . 1 Gary Brown: It is going to be hard to go up to a guy and say, this section is going to cost you $1,000.00 for three years and he says great and then you say, but , if the HRA comes back or the Planning Commission or whoever I 3 months or 4 months from now and says they don't like it, it's going to come down and you ' re out $1, 000 . 00. We' ll have a hard time selling that. Emmings: I don't think 3 years isn't a problem. I think that is 1 temporary. Gary Brown: I don't think it's going to be a problem either because this 1 is kind of an on-going thing and it's been going on and it's going to go on. The sign is probably going to be pretty worn out by the time you get into this street part. Conrad: I have that feeling but then again you never know what the Council and the HRA may do. I think you've got our input on that. I think my concern is that we let the Chamber know as quickly as we can and if we can 1 expedite that and give them some . . . Gary Brown: Yes, we're basically ready to go. All we need is your II blessing. li I 1 Planning Commission Meeting December 10, 1986 - Page 19 1 C Conrad: You really don't need our blessing, to tell you the truth. All we' re doing is providing some input to some other bodies. Gary Brown : And we appreciate your comments. We want you to like it as well as everybody else. To get your idea. Conrad: Well , you got a few of them tonight and what's going to happen Barb? , Dacy: What I was going to suggest is what we can do is schedule the item for the first meeting in January. It's too late to place the item on Monday' s agenda but we can send it . . . , Gary Brown: Where does it go now, to Council? Dacy: Right, and if they allow you to install the sign temporary pending another review or maybe we could look at in the meantime, between now and the first of January. We ' ll figure out something . ' Emmings: I think we ought to have a design competition for that sign. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a sign competition for the sign for Chanhassen. PUBLIC HEARING: )MPREHENSIVE LAND USE PLAN AMENDMENT TO AMEND THE METROPOLITAN URBAN ERVICE AREA BOUNDARY TO INCLUDE PARCELS IN MOLINE'S ADDITION AND PROPERTIES ABUTTING CRESTVIEW DRIVE. PUBLIC PRESENT: ' Don Kelly 2081 65th Street West Terry Atherton 2082 65th Street West ' Dacy: The properties in question are located on 65th Street and Crestview Drive, west of Galpin Blvd. right on the border of the Metropolitan Urban Service Area line and what has happened, last spring the City became aware that there were septic system failures in some of the properties along the two streets. Originally, the City thought that extension of utility lines could not be achieved without a lift station and besides the fact that it was out of the Urban Service area. The City tried to work with the homeowners as to upgrading those systems. However, upon a petition of members of the neighborhood, a feasibility study was done and it was determined that a lift station was not necessary and that sewer lines could be extended from the east on Lake Lucy Road and serve the properties on 65th Street and Crestview Drive. The Council eventually did approve the extension of sewer lines from the Pheasant Hill Development from the east. We have to go through the Comprehensive Plan Land Use Plan Amendment process to amend this MUSA line boundary so that it includes all of these �''roperties. Before the Metro Waste Control Commission will authorize - .tension of sewer pipes, they need Metropolitan Council approval and II (7 C , lkPlanning Commission Meeting November 19 , 1986 - Page 24 I Conrad: Okay, then we don't need to bring it back but then we don't see it. We think Staff knows what they are doing. IIJay Johnson : Does the public get excluded on that then? Emmings: There will be a public hearing on the ordinance. Jay Johnson : There will be a public hearing before Council . . . Dacy: It is not "official public hearing" but we are notifying homeowners II associations, everybody that was here in February and March will be notified again. II Jay Johnson : I know a lot of people who put up fences and this is a major change to the fences going up. Dacy: I also stuck in an article in the Chamber News so that should be IIcoming out the day after Thanksgiving. Conrad: I just want to make sure that it is because fencing is very Ipersonal and people get involved in fencing. Dacy: Most people call up and ask what the rules are but there is always If: that one individual . Conrad: I was looking at the procedure here though Barb. As this goes up to City Council , it will be a public hearing? You said you were notifying IIbut will it be a public hearing? Dacy: I'm sure the Mayor will recognize the people to comment. They are II conducting a special meeting on December 3rd, Wednesday to go over it and yes, it will be a public meeting. They will have the opportunity to comment. I Headla: If somebody calls up after seeing it in the paper, will you send them out the proposed ordinance? IDacy: Sure. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE - COMMUNITY SIGN PROPOSAL. 1 Dacy: I wanted to bring this item to your attention because some of you that have been involved with the Chamber are probably aware of it also but we talked last time about the community signage that our consultant for the I downtown feasibility study is preparing. By the way, they will be here at our December 10th meeting to do a quick presentation on the improvements that the HRA is looking at so the Planning Commission is up to date on II that. Part of those improvements are the signs and I wanted to ask the Commission whether or not they wanted to participate in kind of a review :_ process of the proposed signage and if so, we should ask the Chamber to IIcome up with a design that is consistent with what the community is 41, A , / ?-,-k .---C..- II Planning Commission Meeting November 19 , 1986 - Page 25 thinking as part of the downtown improvement program. If not, if you want to shift that responsbility more on the HRA then we can take the Planning Commission out of it and redirect the Chamber to the HRA but I know that you guys were concerned about signage and so on so I wanted to have you at least talk about it first and then go from there, yes or no. Conrad: What is our control on signage other then the ordinance? Dacy: The control, what would happen is I would send the Chamber's sign 9 design to Jim Lasher over BRW who is responsible for the streetscape part of the feasibility improvements. He will look at what they have come up with here in your packet and make recommendations and is it compatible to what we are trying to plan for the downtown area or are there some suggestions included so that would be your guideline in making the recommendation to the HRA. Conrad : Who has control over what the Chamber puts up? Dacy: The City does. Ultimately the Council. They may be asking the HRA for cost participation so the HRA would in essence control as to whether or not they would contribute any money to the erection of the sign. I Headla : Barb, what can anybody can we do over what the HRA can do? Dacy: That is the decision that you folks have to make. That is the question. If you feel that you want to be a part of the process, then this is your opportunity to say so. If not, then we just go ahead. Siegel : Is the HRA involved in this process? ' Dacy: Oh yes, because they are going to be seeing the downtown feasbility proposal and they are the ones that are going to determine what sewer goes where and what street is aligned. Siegel : I mean on the sign? ' Dacy: Yes, as an advisory body you would be making a recommendation to that body. u Siegel : Would you make a recommendation to HRA? Dacy: And to City Council . ' Noziska : Where are the signs going to go? Conrad: Right at the corner of TH 101 and TH 5. The Chamber has come up with on page 2 this design where they can promote individual facilities in Chanhassen. They can't promote them all but they will charge out part of their cost to individuals who would like to advertise. What they did was a ` ?ylon facing east of eight individual business and the opposite side will essay Welcome to Chanhassen. That is what they recommended. There are some 1 t A. Planning Commission Meeting ItNovember 19, 1986 - Page 26 ll failures in that sign proposal in that in the future Chanhassen may grow II and eight people will have signage and many others won't yet on the other hand, the business community needs promotion and needs directional signage IIand this is one way they feel they can help at least eight Chamber members. I'm not sure that we want to mucky-muck around because I do believe that the HRA personally, I think we should be bringing people into Chanhassen at Ithe entry point and I don't know that 8 little signs are legible. I'm just not real positive about this. I think there are benefits for the community to have a major sign out there with a Welcome to Chanhassen and a sign pointing to the business district but I don ' t know. IINoziska : Welcome to Chanhassen , Your Place to Grow or something. IConrad: That' s my preference too. Something to be out there. Noziska: Rather then Joe's Bar and Grill, Suzie's Sauna and Ed's Barber Shop. ISiegel : Ladd , you said this was the preferred one from the Chamber of Commerce? " Conrad: The Chamber has been working on this for more then months. They have got agreement from the Chamber body that this is it. if,Jiegel : That is one of the most original signs I have ever seen. Conrad: They are open as to what to put on the back side but the front 1 side with the businesses, they are trying to sell and help eight businesses. rDacy: Your initial direction already is you are saying that you prefer a more simple sign and not a directory type of sign at that particular location and if you want to leave it at that and leave the specifics to the HRA Council . Conrad : That ' s what I said. I don ' t know about everybody else. IEmmings: I agree completely and these designs back here with brick and wood, this looks like maybe a subdivision. I think they are awful, just awful. This one I don't mind where it says Welcome to Chanhassen. That seems kind of friendly and straight forward and I think that is fine but Ihaving a limited number of spaces for businesses is just ridiculous to me. I can ' t imagine why they want to do it . INoziska: Horrible, absolutely horrible . Conrad : So am I hearing that we want to stay out of this but make a recommendationt to the HRA that a sign be constructed that promotes the community versus promotion of individual businesses . oiegel : Keep it simple. r 1 C • Planning Commission Meeting 11 November 19, 1986 - Page 27 Noziska: I don't see a single, solitary sign here that looks like anything I but a mess even though I like the masonary. I think the wood that would be up there for 2-3 years will warp and crack, looks pretty great too. there has to be a better way of doing it. Something. None of those really do much for me. COMPREHENSIVE PLAN - HOUSING CHAPTER. Koegler: Last time you recall we went through the existing housing section and indicated we would be back this meeting with at least the beginning of the draft changes for that portion and that is what has been submitted as II part of your packet for this evening. In going through this, every attempt was made to basically follow Metropolitan Council's outline as much as reasonably could be accommodated and at the same time to reflect some of the comments and the thinking that the members of the Commission expressed which not to try to sum that up but to maybe paraphrase generally, to keep things to some degree structured but unstructured, if that is possible. There were certain topics that you wished to avoid and I trust we have done that. Normal procedures has been just to run through this quickly and I guess I will begin doing that. Flag me at any point in time that you have anything. As we talked about last time, the first thing that we wanted to do was unclutter, basically the housing section and as a result of that there are a number of omissions that occur throughout this. The first one (- is referenced on the first page, really got into the various types of 11 A. nousing that were described in some detail in the last plan and you agreed last time that that was not really necessary and therefore that has been removed from this documents. The first addition that actually occurred is a very minor one which was on page 14 and simply referenced the preceding criteria and indicated that the City Planning Comission and Council may apply that type of criteria in reviewing housing proposals. Obviously the ordinance criteria takes precedence but that is just kind of a general framework kind of thing. On page 21, we got into an update of Census Data. II Obviously replaced the 1980 data with previous 1970 data and when possible, tried to provide a side by side comparison of the two figures where the categories would remain the same which was throughout most of that text portion. We talked a little bit last time about the growth in housing that has occurred and the fact that the median rent has gone up about 99% over the 10 year period. Purchase price of the average residence was $84,000.00 II which was up 121% from the $39,000.00 figure recorded in 1970. Those kinds of figures are reflected in the comparison numbers that are present in that particular chart. The previous plan had some language on neighborhoods and as was brought up this evening with regard to the Zoning Ordinance and so forth. The neighborhood associations and neighborhoods in general are a good vehicle to promote to get the word out if you will. That has been left as a proponent of the plan and in fact, the various neighborhood areas have been updated to reflect some of the developments that have occurred in the last five years or so that were not a part of the previous plan so that information has simply been updated from city records. Page 26, there is a II lead in there. In July of this year, Todd spent some time actually going around the community and rerecording by geographic area the types of units that are within those as well as the unit count. That information was 11 g A. Planning Commission Meeting INovember 5, 1986 - Page 28 C IDacy: We can talk about this more maybe next time but the City is responsible for the public health, safety and welfare and if the septic tank systems are not properly maintained there could be a threat to public 1 health so you also have to remember that in the rural area in Chanhassen sanitary sewer may not be available to that area for 20-25 or maybe even 50 years so we really have to take an active maintenance program. I understand your point. There is always a conflict in government. How far Ido we go in regulations of the individual property owner but Staff feels in this case since it is a public health issue that we feel that maybe we should take a stronger stand. That is the rationale. IIConrad: I think also, when I had a septic system, that was the last thing I wanted to pay attention to. I did not know how often to pump it. You just get rumors of when you should do it and I tell you, I'm not monitoring Iit. I never did. The only time I monitored it was when I had a backup so I don't know. I think we can relate to don't let government get into telling you when to do everything but on the other hand, this issue it IIgives the people in the unsewered areas some alternatives to work with their land and put housing on it and to give them that liberty of doing that, I think there has to be some kind of a system that we can put in • there to make sure that we don ' t have septic problems. II Erhart : I would like to see us work on this alternate system where we have 1r some procedure for some developer or lot owner to come in and make a egitimate proposal based on some history or something so we don't end up intimidating people who have fresh ideas. IIEmmings moved, Erhart seconded to table to amend Ordinance 10-A, Individual Sewage Treatment Systems Ordinance for two weeks to allow Staff to take the Commission's comments along with the Building Inspector's and come back and present a revised ordinance through a public hearing format. All voted in IIfavor of tabling and motion carried . AMENDMENT TO ORDINANCE NO. 36, SECTION 3.13 FOR OFF-PREMISE TEMPORARY II DIRECTIONAL SIGNS . Dacy: We brought this back to your attention. Maybe some of the new 11 members were not here when we originally considered this but we brought it back under this item because you had tabled it this summer until you got a full commission. As you recall, the Sign Ordinance request for Tom Klingelhutz has spurred us to think about maybe the community should be IIproviding for off-premise signage for subdivisions in the community and so on and maybe for example at major intersections and we put together some specific standards. Since that time I guess I wanted to update you with IIwhat is occurring in conjunction with our downtown work and streetscape proposals that BRW is responsible for doing the feasibility study for downtown and so on, has come up with some alternative sign proposals for major entry points into the community which could accommodate this type of IIuse in a more consistent sign fashion so we don't have six different types if signs pointing to Pheasant Hills and Hidden Valley and the other . II II 4774C4 X9(2 Planning Commission Meeting November 5, 1986 - Page 29 , Conrad : Except Tom Klingelhutz ' proposal was turned down, right? ' Dacy: No it wasn't. It was approved by the Council. You did recommend to deny it but you said Staff could go back and look at a possible ordinance amendment and we came back at that point and you didn't have a full commission and had some different views. I would just like to hand out what BRW is thinking of. This is not final. Even the HRA or City Council hasn't seen this. The idea is three types of entry signs into Chanhassen. The first one of which could function as a directory for subdivisions. On the one that you have now it lists businesses and that obviously would be located as you enter into the downtown so Staff's point is that again, instead of maybe a sign ordinance amendment that Staff commented that we wanted to carry out a consistent sign program in the community and that maybe this proposal that will be under review by the HRA and the City Council should be used in amending the sign ordinance for individuals. This would give the community more design control. I just want to bring this to your attention and see if you have any comments. See if you think we are off the wall , agree or . . . I Wildermuth: How would this replace the sign ordinance? Dacy: It is not that it would replace the sign ordinance. All I'm saying is that the sign ordinance amendment would not be necessary to allow for to have a sign saying Pheasant Hills subdivision, arrow, another subdivision, crow and so on. This could be a city project. We would be installing these signs around various spots in the community. Wildermuth: Who is going to pay for it? The taxpayer? I Dacy: Everything is related through the downtown development project which will be partially financed by tax increment financing which is the original intent of that district is to take the increments generated by the development of the business park to pay for improvements in the downtown and a portion of those costs would be paid through special assessments and so on. Primarily we are paying for this through the tax increment, HRA district so I think you can thank Instant Web, United Mailing and so on because they are providing . . . Wildermuth: It seems like the people whose businesses are being advertised II ought to be paying for it. Dacy: We have had a lot of businesses come to us and a lot of developers ' say, people don't know where to get to our subdivisions and this is just a way to provide that community function and provide signage to better acquaint people that go through to where these various places are in Chanhassen. It gets back to design control. The major thing is sign control . Conrad: When Klingelhutz came in, just history when you weren't around, he basically had a development that he wanted directional signage and the rdinance says that you can not have a off-premise sign telling me how to k Planning Commission Meeting November 5, 1986 - Page 30 IIget to his new development and many developments have that need. This is a real one so at that time we, as a body, whoever was here and I don't know who was anymore, but anyway Staff came up with a solution for his problem IIwhich would like totem pole the signs at an intersection of a development so you could have several developments. Instead of having chaotic signs at a corner off-premise, you have some kind of organization to them. We turned that spot down even though we understood the need, the City Council 1 accepted that thought. Staff is back to say that maybe there is a way to orchestrate this for others. If that is a need in the community, maybe there is a way to orchestrate this through the ordinance. However, as I Iunderstand your proposal , you still do not like it. Dacy: What we are saying is that we do not recommend amending the sign ordinance. What the City is saying though is that we prefer to have a city Idesigned consistent program of sign control for major entrances points instead of having a 24 square foot sign 10 feet down on Galpin Blvd. that is green with black letters , 18 square feet. . . 1 Conrad : What you are presenting will not solve Klingelhutz ' problem? IIDacy: I'm saying it could. The community would have to decide whether or not to locate a sign at CR 17 and TH 41. We really have to look at that. How many signs do we want to have on TH 5? I can sympathize with some of the locations. A lot of their work has to come through marketing too. I 'hey are working with maps and so on. Conrad : Chamber of Commerce by the way has this on the drawing board. The tChamber of Commerce wants something like that. I think it is going to fail. I think when you get down to it you have so many positions on a sign and we're going to have 500 people that want that and we're going to IIexclude 494 and 6 are going to be there. It just seems in the long run it is going to be a real hassle. In the short run probably not a problem becuase we don' t have that many businesses but in the long run how do you determine which 6? The first ones in. There is some logic for Icoordinating this. There is some logic for having coordinated signs and there is nothing worse then having signage all over. That is just real visual garbage and that forces nothing to work. ilDacy: You don't necessarily have to take action on this. It was out there hanging on a table and we just wanted to bring it back to kind of wrap the file up so to speak. IIConrad : Well , where do we go? Does anybody know where they want to g o with this thing? I don't. I see negatives. The intent is terrific lbecause it is something that we should continue to play around with or get it off of Staff' s desk. Siegel: What are we waiting for Barbara? Are we waiting for the HRA and Psomebody else to take action on this? N, II II Planning Commission Meeting November 5, 1986 - Page 31 Dacy: Yes. The sign program, streetscape proposal will be considered by the HRA through their consideration of the feasibility study which estimates the cost of providing the street, sewer, water, drainage and streetscape improvements for the downtown area. The HRA is about to embark on that whole public hearing process and these type of costs will be incorporated into that overall project. Siegel : I could see that working for the downtown area if we are set on having a central downtown district, it should be signed properly. i agree that a directory is probably the least effective way of going about it and these other ones are probably in contention to be winners or losers. I don't think we should take a standard like this and say we are going to advertise Tom Klingelhutz' property by building a brick monument out on CR 17 and TH 5 and say Pheasant Hill this direction. I just think we should probably. . . Dacy: . I thought the Commission's intent was to have it on a permanent basis though. Was to have these directional signs permanently pointing direction to . . . Emmings : It says the sign will be removed six months after it has been erected. Dacy: That was our recommendation. Emmings: Oh no . Erhart : I thought that was your idea . , Emmings: We said six months. That's what I remember from our previous conversation. Dacy: Then what's the point of all this. I'm sorry I brought it up. Never mind. Erhart: I think it is an unfortunate situation here really. Staff got off II on a tangent here and the way I always thought the discussion was going because I was in on all of these was that the developer's, at their own expense, as long as they made a nice looking sign, could put a sign out, one sign for six months directing people to their development. At the end of six months they take it down. We don't bear any expense other then we get to review the sign and it has to be in accordance with the ordinance. I know we discussed sharing a sign and I never saw how that could work because as soon as you had six, a seventh guy would come along. We could make that real complicated here. I Dacy: If that is the case, then you should amend the ordinance. What we are saying is that we felt that there was an alternative to doing it instead of amending the sign ordinance. What you are saying is, no Staff } you blew it, we' re only talking about temporary situations. • 1 I IF Planning Commission Meeting November 5, 1986 - Page 32 IEmmings : You didn't blow it because the way you wrote your thing here in the materials you gave us, it seems to me exactly what we had in mind . The whole point seemed to me was when Klingelhutz was sitting here he said Iit is the initial phase of the subdivision to get people to us and by six months you have enough people in so that word of mouth, they know where we are and it's not a problem anymore. That is what I recall . 1 Dacy: Okay, if that is the case and if you feel strongly about it then you can direct us to advertise for a public hearing based on what you have here . IEmmings : I have a couple of points I would like to bring up about it but I don't know where we are. The signs are supposed to be designed so three IIdevelopments can be displayed on any one sign and I would say, I think we should think about how many of these signs they can have. I think there should be a limit on the number they should have for each subdivision. Let them have two of these. No more then two for each subdivision or something Ilike that. I don't care what the number is but they shouldn't be putting up 100 of these things so I think it would be a good idea to have a limit and I don't think there should be any more then one sign per intersection. The first three to get there get on the sign and when one of them gets off I the next one can get on and I don't think that will really be a problem because I don't think there will be three subdivisions that will want the same intersection and if there are they will just have to wait their turn. IFConrad: So you are in favor of the off-premise sign? IEmmings: I wasn't, I thought the ordinance was fine very frankly but Tom Klingelhutz convinced me that it is a real problem initially getting people there. The way we're developing out here with these subdivisions, if we're going to let him build a subdivision we have to let him get people to him. II was persuaded by him in that regard. Erhart: I just think you are making an emotional, complicated, potential Iproblem by requiring that they have space for three developments on one sign. It is just a whole lot cleaner and simpler if each developer puts in his own sign as long as they meet the ordinance and he takes his own sign • down. III Conrad : But do you agree with what Steve was saying? Ill I Erhart: About him? I agreed at the meeting with Tom. I wholeheartedly agree with what Steve had , I just think you ought to keep one sign per developer and like Steve said, limit the total number of signs to two or I one . Siegel : I'm just going to go 180 or 360 degrees on this because I'm not for off-premise signing anymore. I just think we should be as strict as IIEden Priaire, Minnetonka, Plymouth and many other communites have been and disallow that. I think if they have a development of any kind of ' substance, there are many, many marketing methods to achieve getting people I 11 Planning Commission Meeting November 5, 1986 - Page 33 1 to attend their development's promotion and whatever. They can put a map in the newspaper and pay for it. They can put any number of types of promotional pieces out to get Parade of Homes participation. If we're talking about residential development, I don't know of anybody in the building trade who has a problem utilizing the Parade of Homes promotion every year to get people to find their locations. They put a detailed map in there with street intersections and if Tom Klingelhutz wants to participate in the Parade of Homes, let him. It is part of the presidential marketing effort but I think we are getting too trashy and we have the potential of getting trashier on the highways and biways here. Wildermuth: I agree with Tim's comment. I don't see any reason to put a number three or at least three signs to be displayed. I want individual signs for their property and I like the attitude of having it expire in six months, the sign has to come down. , Headla: Any decision we make isn't forever. It can be changed. I think the problem has been identified and I like the idea of just the builder II putting up a sign off-premise and it has to be taken down in six months and let him advertise his own but only one of these signs on any arterial highway. If someone is coming on TH 5, point it one direction and then that is it. Conrad: Chaska Development was in asking for a sign. What would this do A. o their request if this went through? Would they be granted a sign? Dacy: No, this only applies to residential which reminds me that South Storage place in Chaska has installed another one at that same location so 11 we have to go out and tell them to take it down. It seems to be a popular corner . Conrad: My feeling is generally I agree with you Bob, I think in this case I if we put some limits on signage and because the signs really are fairly small, I think to help the developer for six months with the restrictions probably can be sold. I think we can help the developer a little bit in II funneling traffic around and I think in this case I am going to beg some of the philosophies that I have had in the past and swing with it. At least swing with it to vote for it and send it up to Council and see how they react to it. Is there a motion? Emmings : Do we have to have a public hearing on this? Dacy: Right. Emmings : So what is the appropriate motion? Conrad: Maybe we don't need a motion. Maybe we just instruct you to make the changes as you have heard. I think most of us, other then Bob agree with Steve's additions and deletions and if you could refine the changes for his comments and we' ll conduct a public hearing . • 11 I/ I , A. Planning Commission Meeting IINovember 5, 1986 - Page 34 IDacy: Also in 82, I don't think it is a real burning issue right at this point but if I take this report to the Council with a copy of your Minutes, let's say this month or next month and have them incorporate it into the ISign Ordinance which I think will be passed with the new Zoning Ordinance. We could eliminate a potential item on a future agenda. It is not that critical . IConrad: By incorporating it into the Sign Ordinance for a public hearing. When would the public have a chance to react to it? IDacy: In December . Conrad: But they would have a chance. Okay, then don't schedule a public Ihearing but I think you should bring it back to us so we can vote on it. Erhart: Do you feel that you have direction on this number of signs er sign? p IDacy: Yes, I have the direction that we should not require that and instead require a number per subdivision and a number per intersection. IBROADENED STUDY AREA UPDATE - DOWNTOWN ROAD SYSTEM. Dacy: I put this into a little more understandable language. I did Ifjoof though. The one arrow on this one should have been pointing to Lack of Street Continuity. It is true in both cases but I had the arrow in the wrong direction. In any case and I have to apologize the third paragraph, II that second sentence doesn't make sense. Your original comment, Mr. Chairman was should we ease the severity of the angle coming into downtown. The consultant came back and said, yes this could split to the north and this is a conceptual design that Staff felt really had to be looked at in Idetail . Conrad: What is going to be in that little triangle Barbara? There's not Igoing to be a house right? Dacy: No. Here? IConrad: Right here. Why don't we just slide a street going there because this way nothing can be here? IlDacy: When you do that you are always looking at different trade-offs. If we move it to the north then you have to acquire one more. IConrad : I 'm adding a new road . Dacy: That' s Schlenk ' s house. " Conrad : Oh there is a house there? 11 I LAW OFFICES GRANNIS, GRANNIS, FARRELL & KNUTSON DAVID L. GRANNIS- 1874-1961 PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION TELECOPIER: DAVID L. GRANNIS,JR. - 1910-1980 POST OFFICE Box 57 (612)455-2359 DAVID L. HARMEYER VANCE B.GRANNIS 403 NOR WEST BANK BUILDING M.VANCE B. GRANNIS,JR. 161 NORTH CONCORD EXCHANGE B. KNEISCH EL LICOTT Tr RAY PATRICK A. FARRELL EL B B. DAVID L. GRANNIS, III SOUTH ST PAUL, MINNESOTA 55075 MICHAEL J. MAYER ROGER N. KNUTSON TELEPHONE: (612)455-1661 November 24, 1987 Ms. Barbara Dacy, City Planner City of Chanhassen 690 Coulter Drive, Box 147 Chanhassen, Minnesota 55317 RE: Pylon Signs Dear Barb: ' You have asked me to review the legality of the City prohibiting pylon signs in a certain area of the City except for (1 ) City owned pylon signs, or (2 ) privately owned pylon signs on designated spots. If the City can demonstrate that the prohibition of pylon signs "directly advances" a "substantial governmental interest" and "reaches no further than necessary to accomplish the given objective" , the prohibition should be upheld. See, Central Hudson Gas v. Public Services Commission of New York, 447 US 557 ( 1980 ) . A good planning report should be put together to document that the ban promotes aesthetics in the community. "Aesthetics" is a legitimate governmental interest. Penn Central Transportation Co. v. City of New York, 438 US 104 ( 1978 ) . I don' t see any legal obstacles to the City owning "directory" pylon signs. I don' t know, however, of any authority for the City to sell advertising space. The signs could be in street right-of-ways because giving direction is incidental to 111 the transportation function of the street. McQuillan, Mun. Corp. ( 3rd ed. ) § 30. 44. There are several problems with picking a few spots in a district and allowing private ownership of pylon signs only on those spots. First, Minn. Stat. § 462. 357 , subd. 1 provides " [zoning] regulations shall be uniform for each class or kind of buildings, structures, or land for each class or kind of use throughout said district. " Allowing pylon signs at certain spots wouldn' t comply with the uniformity requirement. Second, you can't force a private property owner to install a sign on private property, you can' t force someone to advertise someone elses business, and you can' t tell someone what to charge for the ►=�' • —D advertisement. The owners of the chosen spots would have a NOV 3 0 1987 CfFY or CHANHASSEN! II Ms. Barbara Dacy - Pylon Signs November 24, 1987 Page Two valuable monopoly that could be abused. If you want to allow a few private pylon signs, I suggest criteria be established for eligibility such as shopping centers, etc. I e y truly you . , GR% ■ _ , " ' ANNIS, FAR EL & TSON, P.A. '.ger N. Knutson RNK: srn I I 1 I I 1