7 Variance Approval for Chanhassen Cinema Sign
CITY OF
CHANHASSEN
) City Center Drive, PO Box 147
JWlhassen. Minnesota 55317
Phone 612.937.1900
General Fax 612.937.5139
ngineering Fax 612.937.9152
Iblic Safety Fax 612.934.2524
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MEMORANDUM
TO:
Mayor and City Council
FROM:
Shannin Al-Jaff, Planner II
DATE:
December 14, 1998
SUBJ:
Revised Sign Plan for Chanhassen Cinema (98-3 Sign)
BACKGROUND
Please refer to attached staff report.
ANALYSIS
The applicant is proposing to purchase the entire Entertainment Complex
Building and add 8 additional movie screens and retail (the design is in the very
early stages). Assuming that this proposal is approved, the main entrance into the
theaters will be facing south and in the center of the building. The existing
entrance would be abandoned and the space within could be turned into another
theater.
Based upon this scenario, the applica~t requested a temporary sign to identify the
building. Staff agreed that a sign is needed, however, there is a sign that has been
approved by the city council. This sign received variances based upon the design
and any changes would require approval by the planning commission and city
council.
The new proposed sign is comprised of individual backlit letters (attachment 4).
Staff is reluctant to recommend approval of the revised sign plan simply because
it does not contribute to the design of the building and has no architectural
significance. If the additional 8 screens were not approved, the city will be in a
position where the vision and standards for this area have been compromised with
no recourse to correct it.
The city council has already approved two signs. The first is a plexiglass sign
with changeable letters showing the title, time and rating of the movies. The
second sign incOlporates raised channeled letters for the name of the theater and
shooting stars, neon lights, chasing lights, and areas to display current and/or
coming attractions, ratings, and show times and dates.
City ofCbanbasseII. A growing community witb dealllakes, qlli1li~)' scboo/s, a chmming downtown, thriving businesses, and beautiful pmks. A great plact' to lil'e, IIJork, and play
Mayor and City Council
Revised Sign Plan for Chanhassen Cinema
November 18, 1998
Page 2
The zoning ordinance mandates that only buildings with street frontage be permitted signage. The
cinema does not have direct street frontage. A variance was granted to allow signage for cinema
based on an acceptable sign design that complements the building. We understand the applicant's
situation as it pertains to added expenses if and when the entrance into the building is relocated.
However, we do not wish to see the city compromise its position- by approving a sign that is
esthetically substandard.
PLANNING COMMISSION UPDATE
On November 18, 1998, the Planning Commission recommend denial of the sign plan reflecting
channeled individual backlit letters and give the applicant the option of either permitting a
plexiglass sign with changeable letters showing the title, time and rating of the movies
(attachment #2) or a sign that incorporates raised channeled letters for the name of the theater and
shooting stars, neon times and dates (similar to Attachment #3). If the EDA does look favorably
upon the expansion of the movie theaters, that the planning commission be shown some sort of
temporary signage. They requested that the city council review the narrative (minutes) of the
discussion made by the planning commission to hear and/or interpret the feelings of the
respective commissioners. In summary, the issues were as follows:
The planning commission agreed that the establishment needed a sign, however, the proposed
sign was described as real boring, no character whatsoever, bland, very passive, not very
compelling, certainly an understated way of drawing people in. It is just a pretty bland way to
advertise probably an exciting theater. The commission also stated that the EDA has invested
funds and the city council has a certain direction and a certain idea for this entire property.
The applicant is under the impression that it is staff's direction to use the individual channeled
letters. Staffhas always directed the applicant to build what was originally approved by the city
council (marquee plexiglass sign with changeable letters showing the title, time and the rating of
the movies, or a marquee sign with chasing lights also approved by the city council).
The applicant requested a two year temporary individual channel letters sign which was denied by
the planning commission. The planning commission was willing to consider a temporary sign,
however, the sign needed to be redesigned and made more attractive.
The planning commission stated that the city council has a vision for this area and have approved
two signs. They made the decision to deny this application and requested the city council read
their discussion.
Mayor and City Council
Revised Sign Plan for Chanhassen Cinema
November 18, 1998
Page 3
RECOMMENDATION
The planning commission recommends the city council deny the sign plan reflecting channeled
individual backlit letters and give the applicant the option of either permitting a plexiglass sign
with changeable letters showing the title, time and rating of the movies (attachment #2) or a sign
that incorporates raised channeled letters for the name of the theater and shooting stars, neon
times and dates (similar to Attachment #3). If the EDA does look favorably upon the expansion
of the movie theaters, that the planning commission be shown some sort of temporary signage.
ATTACHMENTS
1. Staff report dated March 9, 1998.
2. Sing plan showing Plexiglas marquee sign.
3. Sign plan reflecting chasing lights.
4. Proposed sign plan reflecting backlit channeled letters.
5. Planning Commission minutes dated November 18, 1998.
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'~ITY OF
CHANHASSEN
Lj.
...~DATE:
CC DATE: 3/9/98
CASE NO: 95-21 SPR
By: Al-Jaff:v
.
STAFF REPORT
PROPOSAL:
Sign Plan review for Cinema portion of the Entertainment Center
LOCATION:
North of the railroad tracks and Pauly Drive, east of Market Boulevard and
south of West 78th Street. The Cinema occupies the southeast comer of the
building.
APPLICANT:
Chanhassen Properties, LLC
5300 Highland Greens, Suite 200
Bloomington, MN55437
Attn.: Mr. Bob Copeland
PRES
ACREAGE:
Approximately 6.3 acres
DENSITY:
N/A
ADJACENT ZONING AND
LAND USE:
N - CBD, Filly's and Country Suites Hotel
S - BG, Western Railroad, American Community Bank, and Paulys
E - CBD, Frontier Center
W - POO, Market Square
WATER AND SEWER:
Available to the site.
PHYSICAL CHARACTER.:
A level parcel with an existing building, parking lot, and bus shelter.
2000 LAND USE PLAN:
Commercial
A-\\or,hh1P tI-t- 11- 1_
Cinema Sign Plan
March 9, 1998
Page 2
BACKGROUND
On January 22, 1996, the City Council approved the Site Plan for the Entertainment Complex (#95-
21 SPR) with conditions. The site is located north of the railroad tracks and Pauly Drive, east of
Market Boulevard and south of West 78th Street and Country Suites Hotel. Access is gained off of
two curb cuts on Pauly Drive, and via Market Boulevard.
The site on which this building is situated is a highly visible one and which is highly likely to
become one of the most important intersections in the Chanhassen CBD. The building is being
renovated to reflect an entertainment theme. The proposal included the redevelopment of the
existing bowling alley/Filly's building into an entertainment center. The Center would include a
bowling alley/restaurant with an area of 40,000 square feet and 8 theaters with an area of 20,000
square feet. The remodeling of the Entertainment Complex was phased due to the fact that the
Cinema developer was ready to proceed with construction while the Entertainment Center
developer had not completed the financing package. The phasing of the development included
the reconstruction of the facade, the parking lot, and the railing surrounding the building for the
Cinema portion only.
The sign package for the complex received multiple variances. The design was an attempt to
mimic an "Old Town" theme. Accordingly, the proposal received variances to allow signs to match
architecture and "style of the era."
The sign criteria pertaining to the Cinema portion of the complex, included the following:
All individual dimensional letters and logos comprising each sign shall be back lit with
neon tube illumination. Letter styles shall reflect the period style of the facades and/or
corporate logos. At the cinema marquee and restaurant sign bands, lettering on a
"Plexiglas" face shall be permitted and at the cinema marquee temporary individual
letters and numbers may be used to display current and/or comine attractions.
ratines and show times and dates.
When staff reviewed the sign plan for the complex, several factors were taken into consideration to
justify the size of the marquee sign for the Cinema. The ordinance allows a maximum area of 156
square feet of sign display area for the Cinema. Based upon the fact that traditional theaters display
their coming attractions on the marquee sign, staff recommended approval of this request and the
Planning Commission and City Council approved the marquee with an area of 520 square feet for
that purpose and the sign criteria reflects the intent of that sign."at the cinema marquee.
temporary individual letters and numbers may be used to display current and/or co mine
attractions. ratines. show times and dates."
Cinema Sign Plan
March 9, 1998
Page 3
The other type of sign was posters along the south elevation "The cinema shall be permitted
framed poster displays for current and/or comin!! attractions at the south elevation onlv."
People associated theaters with posters and that would help with there advertising. A second
reason why we felt strongly about these posters was the fact that they acted as an accent that
would break up the wall along the south elevation, add some interest, and give it a festive look
which is typically associated with entertainment areas.
The applicant submitted a sign plan which, in staffs opinion, does not meet the sign criteria
approved by the City Council, therefore, this request is reappearing before you.
APPLICABLE REGULATIONS
Section 20-1267. Uniformity of construction, design, etc. "All permanent signs shall be designed
and constructed in a uniform manner and, to the extent possible, as an integral part of the building's
architecture. .. Signage shall use individual dimensional letters and logos, be back lit if a wall sign
is illuminated, and be architecturally compatible with the building and other signage if in a multi-
tenant building. Company symbols, display messages, pictorial presentations, illustrations, or
decorations shall not occupy more than fifteen (15) percent of the sign display area.
Section 20-1303. Highway, general business districts and central business districts. The following
sign shall be allowed by permit in Any"BH", "BG", or "CBD" District:
The following table lists the standards for freestanding and ground low profile signs in the BH, BG,
or CBD zone.
Principal
Structure
Pylon
Height
(feet)
Sign Size
(square feet)
Ground Low Profile
Height Sign Size
( feet) ( square feet)
50,000 sq. ft
or greater
20
80
10
80
Less than
50,000 sq. ft.
16
64
8
64
(1) Pylon business sign. Pylon signs are permitted on parcels that abut State Highway corridors
only. One (1) pylon identification sign shall be permitted. This sign may identify the name
of the center and of the major tenants. The height and square footage of the sign shall be
based on the square footage of the principal structure as shown in the table. Such signs
shall be located at least ten (10) feet from any property line.
Cinema Sign Plan
March 9, 1998
Page 4
(2) Ground low profile business signs. One (1) ground low profile business sign shall be
permitted per each oultlot or separate building pad that has street frontage. The height and
square footage of the sign shall be based on the table above. Such signs shall be located at
least three hundred (300) feet from any other pylon or ground sign and at least ten (10) feet
from any property line.
(3) Wall business signs. Wall business signs shall be permitted on street frontage for each
business occupant within a building only. The total of all wall mounted sign display areas
for each business shall not exceed the square footage established in the following table:
Maximum Percentage
ofWa!l
Wall Area in Square Feet
Maximum Square
Footage of Sign
15%
13%
11%
9%
7%
5%
3%
0-600
601-1,200
1,201-1,800
1,801-2,400
2,401-3,200
3,201-4,500
4,50+
90
156
198
216
224
230
240
APPLICANT'S PROPOSAL
Marquee Sign: The applicant is requesting to build a 520 square foot marquee sign that spells the
word CINEMA. The height of each letter is approximately 4 feet. The sides of the marquee sign
will carry a decorative element (shooting stars). The sign is proposed to be constructed from a
fabric covering, backlit panel. Panel signs have been prohibited since 1995, when the new sign
ordinance was adopted. Some panel signs still exist, however, they were approved prior to the
adoption of the new ordinance. With the new Cinema proposal, no individual dimension letters are
proposed on the marquee sign. The ordinance and the sign criteria requires individual lettering.
Also, the revised proposal calls for four (4) strips of neon lighting located along the lower two (2)
feet of the marquee sign. The colors of the neon lights are intended to mimic the colors of the
shooting stars. Staff visited a number of theaters within the metro area and looked at their signs.
All traditional theaters carry individual letters and have the names and show times advertised on
their marquee. A sign area variance, as well as allowing the marquee sign was justified when the
original proposal included the names of the shows. With the revised proposal, we find it rather
difficult to justify a hardship. We believe the original proposal is more adequate.
Wall Mounted Sign: The ordinance allows a maximum area of 156 square feet. The applicant's
revised sign proposal calls for a 171 square foot individual letter sign that reads "CHANHASSEN
CINEMA", This sign is located along the south wall. It will result in the elimination of the posters
Cinema Sign Plan
March 9, 1998
Page 5
that advertise the featured shows. Again, the intent was to create a feel for an old town theater and
the proposed wall sign will give a modem feel. Furthermore, if we add the overall square footage
for the marquee sign and the wall sign (676 square feet), the applicant will far exceed ordinance
requirements and again, staff fails to see or find a hardship.
Pylon/Free Standing Sing: This sign was never part of the overall approval, however, the applicant
met with staff and requested a sign closer to Highway 5 and Market Boulevard to advertise the
featured shows. We also discussed the sign being a development identification sign. Since the
Entertainment Center was phased, the overall development identification is proposed to be built in
two phases. Phase I is proposed to include the Cinema only. The design of the sign compliments
the theater. However, the size and the construction materials are of concern. The overall height of
the sign is 15 feet which meets ordinance requirements, however, the area of the sign is 120 square
feet which already exceeds the minimum area permitted by ordinance. If and when Phase II is
added, the sign will have a total height of 24.4 feet and an area of approximately 240 square feet.
This is the largest proposed pylon sign in the City of Chanhassen. The materials of the pillars that
carry the sign are proposed to be aluminum cabinets painted to match the colors of the Cinema. We
strongly recommend that if the sign is approved, that the applicant use construction materials
similar to those used on the Entertainment Center and the color be integrated with the grain or apply
stucco as a finish. The only logical location for the sign is along the southwest comer of the
intersection of Market Boulevard and Pauly Drive (next to the turnaround for Southwest Metro
Transit Buses). We recommend the sign be reduced in size to meet ordinance requirements.
Another issue deals with the fact that the ordinance permits pylon signs on parcels that abut state
highway corridors only. The proposed sign location does not abut the highway and is owned by the
city. Locating signs on city property requires City Council approval.
If the featured shows were required to be located on the theater's marquee sign, then this sign might
be repetitive in service.
STAFF RECOMMENDATION
Marquee Sign:
Staff recommends the applicant be permitted a marquee sign that advertises the featured shows and
the name of the theater. Should the City Council decide that the word "CINEMA" was acceptable
as the only advertisement on the marquee sign, staff recomends individual dimension backlit letters
with neon tubing and not the fabric covering, backlit panel. Neon tubing along the lower two feet
of the marquee sign shall be permitted.
Cinema Sign Plan
March 9, 1998
Page 6
Wall Mounted Sign:
Staff recommends the City Council deny the wall mounted sign since the applicant already exceeds
the maximum allowable area for signage on the building. The posters featuring coming attractions
will advertise the theater. Should the City Council decide to approve the wall mounted sign, the
area of the sign should be reduced to a minimum of 156 square feet.
Pylon Free Standing Sign:
Should the City Council decide to approve the pylon sign, staff recommends the applicant redesigns
the sign to meet area and height requirements. The construction materials shall match the building.
color and shall be integrated into the grain or apply stucco.
A TT ACHMENT
1. Sign Plans
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Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
2. The applicant will meet wetland rules and regulations as stated in Corps of Engineers
Section 404 permit, the State Wetland Conservation Act, and the City's Wetland
Ordinance. Mitigation work shall be implemented prior to or concurrent with wetland fill
activity in all phases of the project.
3. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies,
i.e. Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources,
Army Corps of Engineers and comply with their conditions of approval.
4. The applicant will need to develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with
the City's Best Management Practice Handbook and the Surface Water Management Plan
requirements for new development. The plan shall be submitted to the city for review and
formal approval.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING:
AMENDMENT TO VARIANCE APPROVAL FOR THE CHANHASSEN CINEMA
SIGN.
Kate Aanenson presented the staff report on this item.
Peterson: What's in the package there is also pylon sign. Are we recommending going?
Aanenson: That was the original report that came in. Reader boards. They wanted a separate
reader board out on Market.
Peterson: They're not coming back with a request for that being part of tonight's variance?
Aanenson: No. Not tonight. They just wanted the Cinema up there. This was the sign, the
applicant chose not to go forward with. This is one the Council also approved that and that was
to have the reader up on the top. The reader board. The problem with this is that it was on a flat
surface. We don't allow that type of sign. They wanted the channel letters. So where we're at
today then would be back to just trying to get the cinema with the channel letters. What we're
saying is that now that the other building may be coming forward, we want to have a time limit
on this. Does it make sense to even go forward with this? Some of these questions will be
answered shortly.
Peterson: The issue, either way, I mean right now they have approval to go ahead with City
Council already has.
Aanenson: Correct.
8
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
Peterson: And they could, the lettering, ifthat's substantially different, you haven't got the
lettering.. . cinema sign being relatively the same size. So they have that option to go ahead now.
Looking at which is more or less obtrusive...
Aanenson: Yeah, but it's a little bit more complex than that. Is that this sign was originally
given a variance because it does not have street frontage and the reason that it was given the
variance for that type of thing is because we felt the architecture and being the movie theater
being more unique, sometimes different signage is called for. So does this meet that standard?
What if this becomes the sign? What if the other never goes forward? Is this what you'd want to
see up there permanently and that's kind of the cloud over it. So I don't know if you want to
look at it on a temporary basis. Ask the applicant ifhe wants to wait until the other issue's
resolved. There are a couple different ways to go on that.
Peterson: Other questions of staff.
Conrad: And the pylon sign Kate was approved for Market Boulevard?
Aanenson: No.
Conrad: It was not.
Aanenson: That was another option for a reader board. Yeah, actually that would be the city's
property.
Conrad: That's where the reader board should be. The original sketch that we saw of the
complex that you flashed up in the kit. The center sign. Okay, that's the end sign. But the first
sketch of the whole building Kate where there was a sort of significant central.
Aanenson: Oh, with the new? The entire piece.
Conrad: Yeah, is that a new?
Aanenson: Yeah. That's what's coming forward to the EDA.
Conrad: Okay that's where we may go. Okay. And that.
Aanenson: Right. And depending on how that goes, this would be the one that comes through
the process. . .it's very preliminary. .. That'd be some sort of entrance but maybe more, or exit but
it wouldn't be the primary exit. Entrance.
Conrad: In my mind there's no doubt, we've got to give him exposure. They've got to have
some business and we need the visibility but it's certainly not, what's being presented is certainly
not a long term deal. Absolutely, we should give them some rights to do something but just
temporarily and I don't know how long that would be. It's probably until we see where it's
going. I'm not sure I could set a date. I think the applicant would have to tell me but, and tell us
when they thought the rest of it would come along and then we could hit it based on the balance
9
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
of the project so I'm not sure I could give a date tonight but I certainly know it should be
something dealing. You didn't even ask for my opinion Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry I'm doing this.
But, yeah this is a question. This is questioning staff time but I'm really into opinions on it. I
think we should, we've got to give him some signage but we should make it temporary.
Joyce: Is the sign plan, is that a conditional use or is that just we accept the sign plan? That's the
way it is, right?
Aanenson: Right.
Joyce: Can we put a conditional use on it?
Aanenson: On a variance you can attach a condition, sure.
Joyce: So on something like this we could put the conditional use and make it.
Aanenson: You can put a time. You can attach any condition you want on the variance to
mitigate the time frame or.
Peterson: Not a conditional use but a.
Aanenson: Variance, yeah.
Joyce: Variance with a condition.
Aanenson: Yeah, right.
Joyce: Okay, so we could put it, if we're talking about this variance then we can put a time
frame on it We can say January 1 st if we wanted to. Okay.
Peterson: Other questions of staff? Would the applicant like to present their position?
Bob Copeland: Good evening. My name is Bob Copeland and I represent the cinema. First of
all I want to apologize. I feel like I owe all of you an apology because I don't think, or we didn't
intend to take your time discussing this sign. We attempted to submit a sign that wouldn't
require any variances and could be approved at a staff level and we would just have our sign.
But that didn't happen that way so here I am. At any rate, we intend that this be a temporary
sign. That's our plan too and I think a reasonable time limit is two years from the time we get it
up, which would be, ifit was approved, it would be about 4 weeks after it's approved by the
council. So we think that's a reasonable time frame and we think it's a good compromise and
we're happy to go along with that. So I'll answer any questions you may have.
Joyce: Why two years?
Bob Copeland: Because we think it might take that long.. .new permanent sign in place.
10
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
Joyce: You're talking about possibly with the other?
Bob Copeland: This sign.
Joyce: Okay. Okay, so you're talking about the whole entertainment complex.
Bob Copeland: Well I don't know about the entertainment complex but I know about the
cmema.
Joyce: Changing the entrance is what you're talking about?
Bob Copeland: Right.
Peterson: Your expectation now would be to add additional theaters.
Bob Copeland: That's what we're proposing to do, that's right.
Peterson: Addition an additional 8 to 10 or however.
Bob Copeland: Eight more.
Peterson: And then as you project and the new sign, where would you have that.. . similar to
what's currently approved. . .?
Bob Copeland: No. It would be, I don't know whether you can see these very well but it would
be in these four locations. One, two, three, four along the side of the building.
Joyce: Those are the posters we were talking about?
Bob Copeland: Well they aren't posters. They would be titles of the movies playing.
Peterson: So they're only seen from the parking lot. You really couldn't see them any farther
away than that.
Bob Copeland: Right. I mean we got shot down on a pylon so we're giving up on that.
Peterson: Other questions of the applicant?
Conrad: Do you agree with the staff recommendations?
Bob Copeland: Well no because the staff recommendation is to deny it.
Conrad: So basically your staff report says this is what I want to do. Or this is what they should
do. Based on their proposal.
11
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
Aanenson: Right. But we understand now with the change in mix that is coming forward with
something else that, you know if you give a two year and the other project doesn't go forward,
then what? Then we've got a sign up there that.
Bob Copeland: Well if we have a two year time limit on it then we have to take this sign down
and we would intend to, at that point, assuming that the addition to the cinema is not approved, at
that point we would put up a new permanent sign that we would show you and get approval on.
A much grander sign.
Conrad: Is this what you're proposing?
Bob Copeland: No. That got shot down so we're not going to bring that up again.
Conrad: Okay, what are, that's it?
Bob Copeland: Well that's what we're proposing today.
Aanenson: Yeah, just individual channel letters.
Peterson: In the interim period where do you see displaying the individual movies?
Bob Copeland: We're not going to display the individual movies. The only reason we're going
to display movies at all in the future is because the city wants that. That isn't done much
anymore with 16 screens. But we've received so much feedback and we've had so much
difficulty with the council and so on on that that we're saying okay. We'll put the titles on the
building if you want them on the building.
Peterson: I think that, not speaking on behalf of council but I hate to be put in the position of
telling somebody to put a sign up so...
Conrad: Bob, Mr. Chairman, why are you proposing such small letters in your signage?
Bob Copeland: Because we were guided by Sharmin that larger letters would not be approved.
Conrad: Is the background part of the sign however though? So Kate, maybe you can help me.
Are the letters the max that we're allowing? So when it spells out cinema, is that the maximum
space that they can take? Or is it the whole facade that it's built on that is the maximum? So
they could fill up a bigger area.
Aanenson: Giving a variance you can direct them in the way that you see fit. The intent was
that that was the area for cinema because there was going to be a reader board with it so now it
just reflects the area that says cinema without the reader board.
Conrad: Well this is real boring. You can't do anything better than this? It's very, there's no
character whatsoever so even two years, it's really bland. It doesn't say Chan, there's just no
character there. It's very generic.
12
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
Bob Copeland: If you would like it better ifit said Chanhassen Cinema, we'll say Chanhassen
Cinema.
Conrad: Well no that's your, you know.
Bob Copeland: Well but.
Conrad: I don't want to be in the designing business. That's yours. You've got to bring people
in and that's not my job. That's, this seems really, very passive and not very pretty and not very
compelling so again, I'm not sure how my words mesh with staff and your needs but in my
opinion it's certainly an understated way of drawing people in. And I'm not looking at
ordinance. I'm not looking at sizes and stuff like that. It just is a pretty bland way to advertise
probably an exciting theater.
Bob Copeland: It's very bland. But that's what we've been guided to do.
Conrad: Kate, tell me how I'm wrong in what I'm saying here. Are we, yeah tell me how I'm,
react to what I just said if you would.
Aanenson: I concur with what you're saying. The issue here is, if you're going to grant a sign
and it stays up there for two years, is this what you want to see. That's where you're coming
from. He wants to put a sign up there. We capped it saying that there was a variance given on it.
We're concerned about adding, putting something up there that doesn't meet the criteria of the
city. So if you're going to go in the direction to say well, we're going to give it for two years
then I think you're right. I think you need to say it's got to a sign that you can live with for two
years.
Conrad: Yeah.
Aanenson: The Council, as Chairman Peterson alluded to, had some different direction that they
were going based on some EA issues. But that again may be moot based on this other proposal
going through. So I think we have maybe two different pictures here. One if this is temporary
for two years, we want to have a decent sign. Or say let's go back to what the original proposal
was and ignore what mayor may not happen.
Brooks: Kate, I'm slightly confused here. The City Council already approved two types of signs
for them to use?
Aanenson: There was an original sign package that was approved.
Bob Copeland: Well I wouldn't call it a sign package. There was, the only thing that we had...
The City Council approved this. And it shows where a sign would go but it really doesn't show a
SIgn.
13
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
Brooks: Well it says the first is a plexiglass sign with changeable letters showing the title, time
and the rating of the movies.
Bob Copeland: So there was a description of it that went along with it. That's the only thing
that's been approved.
Aanenson: That's not true. Then this came back...
Bob Copeland: We didn't submit that. We did not submit that.
Brooks: So I'm lost. It sounds like the City Council approved a sign but they want another sign?
Aanenson: They've chosen not to go forward with that.
Brooks: With the City Council sign?
Aanenson: Right.
Brooks: And that's a plexiglass sign with changeable letters showing the title, time and rating of
the movies.
Aanenson: The sign right here, correct.
Brooks: That was approved by the City Council. You don't want to do that?
Bob Copeland: I don't know how it got approved by the City Council. We didn't request
approval of that by the City Council. I'm told, I was shocked to read that in the report. I wasn't
at that meeting.
Blackowiak: Can I ask a question then? Okay, this Attracta. Now is this, you hired this firm to
do this sign? Is that correct?
Bob Copeland: They did that, those drawings that you see there.
Blackowiak: Who's they, Attracta?
Bob Copeland: Attracta.
Blackowiak: Okay. Now according to the copies we have here, Attracta did all these options
too. So you're saying they did something you didn't want them to do?
Bob Copeland: Well I think I may be making this more confusing than it needs to be. And
again, I apologize for taking your time with this. We tried to submit a sign that was not
controversial and would just be approved at the staff level and we would have a sign in the
interim until our, if we get approval, which we hope we'll get approval by the city. Until we can
do our expansion and have a grand sign that we agree should be out there.
14
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
Brooks: I just don't understand why you wouldn't use the sign that was approved by the City
Council.
Bob Copeland: We didn't submit that sign to the City Council for approval.
Aanenson: The City Council has investment in this property. They made the decision based on
what they wanted to see. They gave Mr. Copeland clear direction on what they wanted to see.
Mr. Copeland has chosen not to do that. He's asking the staff to approve this sign. We are not
going to be put in the position to approve a sign that does not meet the City Council approval.
We say we'll take it back through the process. That's where we are.
Bob Copeland: That's why we're here.
Aanenson: That's why we're here. We're back either to approve the sign that the Council
wanted or if you want to give the Council some other direction to say that because there's another
process you may be willing to look at something on a temporary basis. That's really where we're
at.
Peterson: So with that are there other questions for the applicant? Let's move on here.
Burton: I do. What hardship would there be to the cinema if we delayed a decision until your
plans shook out and we knew where we were going?
Bob Copeland: Well if you could tell me when it's going to shake out and we'll know where
we're going, then we can answer that question. I have no idea how long this process takes. It
took us about four years to get the original cinema approved and so on and so I don't know how
long it's going to take. At the earliest it would be maybe late January. That's if things really
went well and everything was approved, bing, bing, bing along the line. That's the earliest.
What's the latest? I don't know. It's really not that difficult. We are reluctant to spend about
$35,000.00 or $40,000.00 on a sign that may only be there for less than a year. So it makes sense
to us we think to spend $3,000.00 and put up a sign that at least identifies the building and
because again, our hope is that that's going to be there for less than a year. But we're saying
okay, knowing how things go, double that time frame and permit it for that period of time. If
we're not successful in that period of time, we'll gladly take it down and we'll put up a big, much
more expenSIve SIgn.
Peterson: With the comments you've heard here this evening, you know that we'd be amenable
to a more attractive sign, glitz or glamour or whatever you want to call it. Whatever you
characterize it. Would you even want to go back and have your sign company do a different sign
for that two year period?
Bob Copeland: Well I'd have to hear what it is that you want because we've had a lot of
difficulty coming up with signs that anybody will approve. So if you want it bigger, we'll make
the letters bigger. If you want it to say Chanhassen in addition to Cinema, we'll do that.
15
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
Peterson: We'll go through that in the comments that each of the commissioners have. Are
there more questions for the applicant? All right, thank you for your patience.
Bob Copeland: Thank you.
Peterson: This item is open for a public hearing. May I have a motion and a second please.
Joyce moved, Burton seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was opened.
Peterson: Anyone wishing to address the commission, please come forward. Seeing none, may I
have a motion to close the public hearing.
Burton moved, Conrad seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was
closed.
Peterson: Kevin, do you want to start this one out? You're welcome.
Joyce: I think he should have a sign there. I don't, I think it should be more elaborate than just
cinema. I just feel you need something more than that. I would suggest to the applicant that he
at least put Chanhassen Cinema on it. That's my request there. I would suggest that we allow
the signage for one year. Conditional use. Maybe with a renewability of an additional year but
that'd be it. And leave it at that. I just, I feel this project has been so temporary for so long I can
see staffs concern of having a quote, unquote, ugly sign or a very you know, quasi sign for there
longer than needs to be there. My suggestion is to, Kate would a conditional use, would that be
come up just any time limit, right? Ifwe put the variance in, we put usage, it could be any time
we want?
Aanenson: I am concerned about, generally variances run with the property. I am concerned
about giving the one year. How that works.
Peterson: I think if you do it, you put a time frame on there and put an interim.
Joyce: Well it's got to be.
Peterson: I think that'd be more logical for staff and administratively. .. .are they going to come
back and.
Joyce: If the applicant put Chanhassen Cinema on there, and at least that, I'd consider a two year
time frame for that. That's where I'm going with this so I don't want to belabor it I guess.
Peterson: Alison.
Blackowiak: Well I believe that there is a bigger picture here. I mean there's a lot more going
on than just a simple sign. We've got EDA funds that are involved and I think that the Council
has a certain direction and a certain idea for this entire property and we may not be, we as a
planning commission may not be privy to exactly what that vision is that I don't think we're
16
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
getting the entire picture tonight. There are two options. There are two signs that have already
been approved. I'm really skeptical about doing a variance on a variance, as Kevin said earlier.
In the last item. I just don't feel that's necessary. I looked at the applicable regulations that
talked about signs, albeit permanent ones, being designed and constructed in a uniform manner
as a integral part of the building's architecture. I think we need to kind of consider that because
there could be essentially a major change to this building's architecture. And to put forward any
sign, even though it may be temporary, I think might be premature. This is going before Council
on Monday. I think it would be a mistake for us to grant any type of a variance on a variance
before council and the EDA has a chance to take a look at this and decide what's going to happen
with the property as a whole. At that time I would really encourage the applicant to come back
and, with a sign that they are comfortable with and would be willing to live with for lots of years
because I don't want to do the temporary thing again and again. I think that's a real waste of
time and money for everyone concerned so I would, at this point agree with the staff
recommendation that we deny the sign plan. Let's wait to see what Council and EDA have to say
about this project as a whole and then let's look at this sign and see how it fits in with the project
as a whole.
Peterson: Allyson.
Brooks: Well I think the City Council already approved two types of signs and I don't see why
we need to go and change that. I mean they have a vision. They saw what they wanted and I
don't see any reason to back track. So that's all I have to say.
Peterson: Ladd.
Conrad: Yeah, I'd like to see what the city council's doing on Monday before we do anything. If
there's some hope there then I think the temporary signage means we can flex to the applicant's
needs. But I'd still like to see the applicant do a better job of signage, even on a temporary basis.
So again, I'd like to table this or turn it down, one or the other. Whatever somebody wants to do
and see what City Council is saying and then we'll know if there's a long term solution. If
there's a long term solution, then we can flex on the interim type signage.
Peterson: Correct me ifI'm wrong. Ifwe table it, it won't go to council, right? We have to
make a decision.
Aanenson: The EDA is meeting Thursday to discuss this and that's tomorrow so we'll have
clarification. You could certainly table it and wait until you get clarification in December. The
first meeting in December.
Peterson: But if right now this would go to Council when?
Aanenson: Oh, not until December 14th. So either way there would be clear direction from the
EDA and from you. But if you wanted to wait.
Peterson: But the council made a decision last time independently really without a bunch of
feedback from us. So I'd be hesitant to table something when they've already pretty much laid
17
Planning Commission Meeting - November 18, 1998
out a plan and have a vision that's somewhat different than ours. To that end, I was just
commenting on your comment more than anything else. Matt.
Burton: I would like to hear what the results of the EDA meetings are and I'd like to have the
city council's input before we consider it so I would be inclined to deny it so we can, because
that will cause that to happen.
Peterson: I would agree to denying a motion and letting basically council determine the type of
sign that they feel would be appropriate, as they have in the past. I would be, this is more notes
to the record. I'd be comfortable with a temporary sign for up to two years again with it, you
know being.. .so that it's not just a, it doesn't look like a cheap sign that's up there for a short
period of time because two years isn't a short period of time. So with that I would offer that we
deny it with some notes to the record. With that, may I have a motion?
Blackowiak: Well, I'll recommend the Planning Commission deny sign plan reflecting
channeled individual backlit letters and give the applicant the option of either permitting a
plexiglas sign etc., etc. How it's written here. I don't know if we, there are no case numbers or
anything so.
Peterson: Is there a second?
Brooks: Second.
Peterson: Any discussion? I think the only discussion or what I would like to add would be that
the council review the narrative of the discussion this evening to hear and/or interpret the feelings
of the respective commissioners.
Aanenson: I was just going to add that. That that'd probably be a good thing to carry forward.
That you wanted to see some sort of signage. If they do decide to go forward, that we might want
to put that as part of this continuing dialogue. If they are going to, if the EDA does look
favorably upon the expansion, that you probably want to see some sort of temporary signage. Is
that correct to push that? Okay.
Peterson: So with that motion and second, discussion.
Blackowiak moved, Brooks seconded that the Planning Commission recommend denial of
the sign plan reflecting channeled individual backlit letters and give the applicant the
option of either permitting a plexiglas sign with changeable letters showing the title, time
and rating of the movies (attachment #2) or a sign that incorporates raised channeled
letters for the name of the theater and shooting stars, neon times and dates (similar to
Attachment #3). If the EDA does look favorably upon the expansion of the movie theaters,
that the Planning Commission be shown some sort of temporary signage. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
18