CC Minutes 1994 08 22CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 22, 1994
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Wing, Councilwoman Dockendorf,
Councilman Mason and Councilman Senn
STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Charles Folch, Scott Hart, Todd Ge~ardt, Sharmin A1-Jaff, and Tom
Scott, City Attorney
APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
Councilman Wing: I have just one item. I think we all got in our packet a letter from Bonesl~oo talking about
our SWMP program is going to go to a national paper. And having recognized that, I have nothing more to
say. You needn't move it ahead.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the
following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
d. City Code Amendment to the BF, Business Fringe District by Adding Additional Permitted and Conditional
Uses, Final Reading.
e. Approve Agreement with Twin Cities and Western Railroad for the Construction of Pedestrian Trail
Crossings at Market Boulevard and Great Plains Boulevard, Project 92-3.
f. Resolution g94-79: Accept Utility Improvements in Stone Creek 4th Addition, Project 94-2.
g. Resolution #94-80: Accept Utility Improvements in Church Road 2nd Addition, Project 94-6.
h. Approve Plans and Specifications for 1994 Sanitary Sewer Rehabilitation Program, Project 94-9.
i. Resolution ~94-81: Approve Plans and Specifications for County Road 17 (Powers Boulevard) Surcharging,
Carver County Project (City Project No. 93-29).
k. Approval of Accounts.
1. City Council Minutes dated August 8, 1994
Planning Commission Minutes dated August 3, 1994
Public Safety Commission Minutes dated August 11, 1994
m. Approve 1995 Police Contract.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None.
LAW ENFORCEMENT COSTS IN CHANHASSEN, SCOTT HARR, PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR.
Scott I-Iarr: Thank you. Mr. Mayor and City Council. Mr. Gerhardt. Residents of Chanhassen. Tonight it's
my pleasure formally to present to you the report on police costs in Chanhassen together with an overview of
public safety service in our town. As I promised in the cover memo tonight, I'm not going to recite the figures
that I set forth in the material that was contained in your packet because I think these figures continue to speak
for themselves. I would however like to take advantage of this opportunity tonight in conjunction with the 1995
police contract issue on the Consent Agenda, to assure you that the system that we've designed here in
Chanhassen continues to work well. I'd like to begin by introducing members of the Public Safety Commission,
the Carver County Sheriff's Department and our staff that are in attendance for this presentation tonight, From
the Public Safety Commission, all of whom are residents of Chanhassen, I'd like to introduce Eldon Berkland
who is the Chairman of the Commission at this time. Eldon is also a paramedic with St. Francis. Bill
Bemhjelm, who is also the Police Chief with the City of Eclina. Brian Beniek who is also a Plymouth Police
Officer and Captain on our Fire Department here in Chanhassen. Dave Dummer who is the Chief Financial
Officer with Powermation and also recently retired as a Lieutenant Colonel with the Air Force Reserve
specializing in Emergency Management, and Mayor Chmiel who also sits on the Public Safety Commission.
From the Carver County Sheriff's Department I'm pleased to have Sheriff A1 Wallin with us. Preparing to run
for his third term as Sheriff. Unopposed for the second time. Operations Captain Ron Holt. Sergeant Larry
Woodsack. Sgt. Woo&sack is assigned as the liaison from the Sheriff's Department along with Captain Holt for
Chanhassen. And from our Public Safety staff, Officer Bob Zydowsky and Community Service Officer Sheila
Losby. All of these individuals are here tonight for the formal presentation as a positive show of support to the
system that's been developed here in Chanhassen. They're not here because they want to take issue with
something that Council has acted on. They're not here because there's an issue that people are upset about.
They're here to lend their support to a system that you can be proud to continue to support. There's no question
that I'm asked more frequently than when is Chanhassen going to start it's own police department and the
answer is simple. As long as the system continues as well as it is now, and the price we're able to pay for these
services, we...commission, the Council...continue taking advantage of this fine set of circumstances. As proof of
this, I'd offer you this morning's newspaper. The Crime Bill continues to march on, passing the House, in
response to America's staggering fear of crime by consider $30 billion of programs that's designed to, among
other things, put 100,000 more police officers on the streets of America. At a time when ninny citizens in
America live behind locked doors constantly and are afraid to leave their homes at night, I find it nothing short
of exhilarating that for the second year in a row I'm proposing to you that we increase our contract police hours
by nothing. And this is particularly unique when you consider that we're operating with a basic number of
police officers that is half of what communities of our size us~ in the Midwest and a quarter of what the average
number of cities throughout the rest of the country have as numbers of officers working their cities in their
police departments. As much of our country is literally paralyzed with fear of crime related activity, I'd like to
bring their attention to the newspaper article that I included in the information on the Consent Agenda for the
1995 police costs...from a strip that listed Chanhassen as one of the safest cities in the suburban Twin Cities in
which to live. The chances of being a victim of a crime are little or less than anywhere else in the Twin Cities
suburban area. I fred it exciting as many communities are struggling at their council meetings this week, to deal
with gang related problems. Weapons problems. Drag related crime. Your Public Safety Commission has
discussed the last 2 months at their meetings making one recommendation for next year. Consider and
developing a crime prevention position to maintain the low crime rate that we have while emphasizing safety
related issues for children and families in this community. Chanhassen really is unique and every department
head could tell you about any programs that they're developing fitting their needs as well. But I find myself
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
frequently concerned with the idea of out of sight, out of mind. I think that's the job of the public safety
department is to maintain the policies that you set forth. Not to develop policies of our own. Occasionally I'll
bring to you an ordinance amendment to fine tune an amendment that we have in existence. Later tonight we'll
be talking about a minute change to an ordinance to make the system work a little bit better but seldom do I
come before you with additional ordinances. Also there's little conlroversy relating to public safety these days.
People don't appear in front of you up in arms about safety related issues in the schools, drugs, weapons. The
system works and it works well but I hope you don't think the fact that there aren't issues before you means that
nothing is happening. A lot is happening. In a way that I think all of us in the community can feel proud and
safe about. I'd like to thank you for the privilege of carrying out the job as Public Safety Director. It was my
pleasure to put together the report. Again, I think the numbers speak for themselves. We have a very unique
system and I'd like to answer any questions that you have about delivery of these services. I know the Sheriff
or the Chairman of the Public Safety Commission would be happy to address any questions that you have.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Scott. Are there any questions of Scott or the Sheriff or the Commissioners on the
Public Safety Commission?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I have a couple comments.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, I want some comments.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well, Scott I know you didn't want to recite a lot of numbers but for public
consumption I would like to. Just want to point out one of the things I keyed in on your report. Comparing
ourselves to similar cities in the area, particularly Chaska which has roughly the same population.
Approximately 14,000. Their budget is about $853,000.00 whereas our's is $418,000.00 for the past year which,
forgive my math skills, is roughly haft, and I think we provide the same service. With the same personnel in
some cases. So that's one number I wanted to point out. And per capita, we are way down the list of all
communities in our area. Shakopee, Prior Lake, FAina, South Lake, Eden Prairie, Chaska, we're rock bottom
and I still think we're providing excellent, excellent services. It's a unique plan that we have. A unique set-up
and it works well.
Mayor Chmiel: I'm glad you brought that up Colleen because if you didn't I was going to. That's always been
one of the major concerns I think of Council was to what costs might be incurred and consequently have to pass
them onto the residents within the community by doing what we're doing as efficiently as we are. This is the
only way to go at this particular time. Maybe down the road 20 years or so. Maybe 10. There might be that
need but as it's working right now, it is very efficient. Sheriff, do you have anything to say? Even though
you're not running for election.
Al Wallin: I just want to say that it's really a pleasure. I was sitting here thinking.
Mayor Chmiel: Would you like to come up to the microphone so we can have this recorded.
Al Wallin: I don't want to belabor the point but it's hard for me to imagine 28 years ago when I walked into
Chanhassen City Hall that I'd be standing in front of here as the Sheriff. That was even as a part time deputy
for the city of Chanhassen. I've seen a lot of growth here and again, this is a community that I actually fostered
my law enforcement career in and like I said, 28 years ago. And so I'm really happy tonight to stand in front of
you and say that the system that I became part of that long ago is still working as good, and even better
probably than it was then. So I just want to thank you for the cooperation. I want to thank the Public Safety
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
and the Commission for all the support they have given us, the Sheriff's Department. It really means a lot,
there's no doubt about that. And I think we are unique. I think a lot of communities could take a lead from
what Chanhassen is doing and the County working cooperatively together so thank you very much.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Is there any, Richard?
Councilman Wing: Well, whenever.
Councilman Mason: Okay, I'll take my mm. You know one of the reasons I ran for office 4 years ago was
because I thought this city was very proactive and anticipated problems before they arose and took care of
issues, always being ahead of what's going on and Scoa and everyone else that's concerned with this, it just
proves it to me and that sounds a little hooky but I'm proud to say that I've been a small part of this and I think
Public Safety and the Carver County Sheriff's Department and what's going on in Chanhassen is an example for
a whole lot of other people and my hat is off. I'm going to back to work on Thursday, my hat is off to all of
you. Good job.
Councilman Wing: Well I was real interested in this thing because I had a couple questions with the Sheriff and
Scott that I just wanted to follow up on. I think the contract is really even good for the city, Obviously
financially it's been a very efficient way to do this but I think it's also been really for the Sheriff's Department.
I think it keeps the Sheriffs Department in the forefront of the community. I think it keeps the Sheriff's
Department modern. It keeps them on their toes. They're working with communities. They have to get along
with people. I think everybody gains by this. I think it's going to be a sad day if this city or the County elects
to break away from that because I think there's more to police service at the County level than just running the
jail or having detectives on the road like's happening in some other counties. Scott I just had a couple of real
quick questions. Years and years ago public safety made a statement that after many years of watching this that
contract costs would most likely parallel but would never exceed the cost of our own department. Do you think
that statement is still true?
Scoa Harr: Right now the way that this city demands public safety services to be rendered, I could not do it for
what the Sheriff's office charges or alone. It is a bargain. I sometimes question how the Sheriff's able to do it
for this figure and again, if some cities look at doing...base level service. We chose to do it just the opposite.
We buy the least number of hours of policing we need and supplement it with less expensive but equally as
important community service officers, code enforcement people and no, I don't think that we could do it for less
now and I don't know what the future will bring. I think it depends a lot on this continued administration and
following administration.
Councilman Wing: So if cost is an issue, we continue to be cheaper with the contract. We haven't narrowed
those costs. Our department would still always cost considerably more than what we're doing right now, even in
today. I wanted to just clarify that. We still have this disparity. How many cars do we got on a 24 hour basis?
Are we running t? 1 1/2 or 2 right now?
Scott Harr: My goal that Captain Holt and I have decided is that the number that we want on a majority of the
time is 2 cars at any given time and that's only because of the geographic size. If we have a call on the
southern end of town, it would just take time to get up to the northern half and the number of calls require it, an
officers safety. We talk about the crime bill. Well it does affect if they're even...pushing that. We try to have
2 officers on or Officer Zydowsky or myself are available to supplement that and the Sheriff's office does what
they can to supplement the time that we're lame just because of scheduling.
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Wing: I brought that up only because I was a little hesitant when we aren't increasing contract
hours this year and with our population, it would seem to dictate two 24 hour cars as a minimum level of service
and we're going to provide that with those contract dollars as you've suggested?
Scott Ham Yes. They include the support from our non-sworn personnel and Bob and myseff and as the city
continues to grow, we'll have to add additional hours. There's no question about that but to be able to do so for
3 years in a row with the same numbers...
Councilman Wing: The crime solve rates in years past were at or better than communities with full time
departments. Do we, with the Sheriff's department, his investigators continue to be at or better than, what's the
word I'm looking for? Solve rates or crime.
Scott Ham ...statistics across the beard, the number of crimes reported and the number of crimes solved. Dealt
with another way, continue to be spectacular. In fact in many areas in Chanhassen rates go down which we
think has to do with more aggressive crime prevention efforts and community interaction efforts in working with
other agencies that provide the enforcement services.
Councilman Wing: I just want to make one-comment and treat this as an accolade. This is directed at the
system as much as Scott but I think that back in 1988, well Mike you were here for some of the problems we
had when we first started. The dream was that this contract was very viable and very functional and extremely
cost effective in providing good levels of service. But to really make it fly we had to have visibility. We had to
have local control, which was a real debate for a few years. And we had to maintain good service levels that no
one would question. And the key to that seemed to us to be the position of Public Safety Director as a
coordinator. Not a police chief. We didn't want to get into a police department but as a coordinator that was
willing to work with every agency we had. And Scott I think you are a dream come tree. I think that you have
in every way, took every possible resource and combined it into a working atmosphere. There's no back biting.
There's no pettiness. There's no rumors. It's been a very productive couple years and I would congratulate you
and everybody. A1 Wallin and his entire department and the Public Safety Commission for what we've got
today. ! think you should be proud of it.
Scott Ham Well I appreciate that. One of the most important things in my report are the individuals listed in
the back...took great pains to include every single individual. Every fire fighter. Every community service
officer. Every deputy on up to the Sheriff's administration. The commission and to recognize the Council. It is
truly a group effort. Nothing that I have done individually. It's a group effort that's worked well. I think that
some of the philosophies that the Sheriff's Deparanent and I share have really helped. And the issue of local
control, we have it. The Captain, Sergeant and I meet weekly, if not daily. The Sheriff and I meet frequently
throughout the year. I've never had a request turned down. If you want to call it control, we have it. The job
gets done and if we have concerns that we want met like the traffic program, we create that. We don't have to
just buy more and more. We can put money into exactly what we want. Local identity. I guess I'm more
proud to have numerous agencies working together rather than the m~ditional territorialism that many
departments find themselves arguing about. I have no doubt that the Sheriff would put serving Chanhassen or in
Chanhassen or something like that on the squads but I don't know that that's desirable. People know that's just
providing front line law enforcement, supported by Bob and Sheila and our employees. The system really works
well. And I appreciate the support from the Council and Todd and Don and the Mayor as well.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Mark, do you have anything.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Senn: No, I think it's pretty much all been said. Thank you Scott. Thank you staff. Thank you
commission members. Thank you Sheriff.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Yes.
A1 Wallin: Can I say one thing?
Mayor Chmiel: Certainly.
A1 Wallin: One of the most important things that we f'md in law enforcement is the cooperation of the citizen
and believe me, Chanhassen has really you know been outstanding in that respect and I think we talk about
solving rates, there's no doubt about it that the cooperation between the citizens and the SheriWs department and
the Public Safety has just been phenomenal. It really has and I think you know, those are the people also sitting
out there that make those phone calls that alert us to a lot of this. Again, we don't have enough police officers
in the city of Chanhassen, nor does any other city. And without the citizens reporting these crimes, we can't
really be effective and so. I'd rather answer, and I know the officers would, answer 10 calls that don't mean
anything but to leave the one go by that nobody called in and many times we have that~ So there is no problem
with people calling in and reporting something suspicious and we certainly appreciate the fact of citizen
involvement. There's no doubt about that. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. Eldon, do you have anything to say?
Eldon Berkland: It's been said.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Can I have a motion then to accept the Law Enforcement Costs in
Chanhassen by Scott.
Councilman Mason: So moved.
Mayor Chmiel: Is them a second?
Councilman Senn: Second.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Senn seconded to accept the Law Enforcement Costs in
Chanhassen presented by the Public Safety Director. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDER REQUEST TO VACATE A PORTION OF A UTIL1TY EASEMENT
LOCATED ON LOT 1, BLOCK 1, HIGHLAND PARK, ELINOR KERBER.
Mayor Chmiel called the public hearing to order.
Charles Folch: This basically we had as a housekeeping item for the property legally described as Lot 1, Block
1, Highland Park. Apparently the property has changed hands recently. A title search has found that the garage
on the property encroaches on a 5 foot wide drainage easement. Staff has reviewed the situation and does not
see that there's a problem with this garage encroaching this easement. And as such we're recommending
6
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
adopting a resolution vacating a portion of the utility easement on Lot 1, Block 1, Highland Park as described in
the attachment.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Is there anyone at this time wishing to address this particular issue? As I
mentioned, this is a public hearing. If you have any concerns, this is the time that you do it. Is there anyone
wishing to address this? Seeing none, can I have a motion to close the public hearing?
Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to close the public hearing. AH voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Mayor Chmiel: Any questions?
Councilman Senn: No. Move approval.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Resolution g94-83: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to adopt a resolution vacating
the underlying utility easement located on Lot 1, Block 1, Highland Park as described in the attached
resolution. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDER REQUEST TO VACATE A PORTION OF DRAINAGE AND
UTILITY EASEMENTS LOCATED ON LOTS 1, 2, 3 AND 4, BLOCK 1 AND LOT 1, BLOCK 2, WEST
VILLAGE HEIGHTS 2ND ADDITION.
Mayor Chmiel called the public hearing to order.
Charles Folch: Thank you. Again, another housekeeping item. I'm sure you all remember back when we
initiated the project for West 78th Slreet and the f'mal alignment for the project actually was adjusted and... West
Village Heights 2nd Addition and as such, back in June of '93 the City Council, upon substantial completion of
the projection had vacated the old right-of-way that was dedicated with the plat. Unfortunately the front lot line
easements which are 10 feet wide which are typically dedicated with the property along right-of-way, did not get
dedicated as a part of the right-of-way. As such, to clear up the matter it would be staff's recommendation to
vacate these existing 10 foot drainage and utility easements as described in Attachment A.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you Charles. Is there anyone at this time wishing to address this issue? I'm
having troubles with my dentures, and I really don't have them. The question is, if you have any concerns on
this, please step forward. This is a public hearing.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Senn seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and
the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I would move to move approval however.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Resolution g94-84: Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Mason seconded to adopt a resolution
vacating the underlying drainage and utility easements on Lots 1, 2, 3 and 4, Block 1 and Lot 1, Block 2,
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City Council Meeting- August 22, 1994
West Village Heights 2nd Addition and as shown on Exhibit A. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
AWARD OF BIDS: UPPER BLUFF CREEK PHASE lib TRUNK UTILITIES, PROJECT 91-17B-2.
Charles Folch: On Tuesday, August 16th bids were received and opened for the Upper Bluff Creek Phase lib
Tnmk Utility Improvement Project No. 91-17B-2. A total of 5 bids were received for this project with the low
bid being received from S.M. Hentges & Sons at a total base bid of $371,421.00 with Alternate No. 1 bid price
of $89,448.00. This bid is approximately within 2% of the engineer's estimate. We have checked references on
S.M. Hentges and Sons and have found them to be favorable. They are also currently working on the
elementary school site contract. Galpin and Highway 5. As indicated, what the Alternate No. 1 entails
providing sanitary sewer and watermain to the school site via Galpin Boulevard. The city was made to do this
given some of the timing delays that are occurring with another trunk utility project which was originally
proposed to provide utilities to the site. So given the time constraints, the commitments that we've made in
cooperation with the school diswict, we recommend adding this work to the improvement project. So as such it
would be staff's recommendation to the Council that we contract for the Upper Bluff Creek Phase lib Trunk
Utility Improvement Project be awarded to S.M. Hentges and Sons as a total base bid with Alternate No. 1 of
$460,869.00.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there anyone wishing to address this at this time? Seeing none, I'II bring it back to
Council. Are there any questions of the Council? Can I have a motion?
Councilman Mason: So moved. Accept award of bids for Project No. 91-17B-2 to S.M. Hentges and Sons
with Alternate No. 1.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there a second?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second.
Resolution g94-85: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to award the Upper
Bluff Creek Phase IIB Trunk Utility Improvement Project No. 91.17B-2 with Alternate No. 1 to S.M.
Hentges & Sons at a total bid with Alternate No. 1 of $460,869.00. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
AMENDMENT TO CITY CODE TO ADOPT THE DEFINITION OF "BLUFF" TO INCLUDE CITY.
WIDE, FINAL READING.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. On August 8th we reviewed the ftrst reading of this proposed ordinance and
requested that an article be placed in the Villager for an opportunity for more citizen comment. The article did
appear on August 1 lth. To date staff has not received questions or input from residents so. You had requested
that it not be put on Consent if there was an opportunity for ftmher discussion so we believe...and recommend
approval of the second...as proposed.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you Kate. Is there anyone wishing to address this item? I did receive one call on
this.
Councilman Mason: Yeah, I did too.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Ted Coey: That was me. I'm Ted Coey and I live at 1381 Lake Lucy Road and I just want to bring up the fact
that I feel that this bluff ordinance was originally drafted for the bluffs on the river front. I don't think this
ordinance should be used for the whole city based on the fact that you can have a 10 foot high hill and it's
called a bluff, based on the grade. Not only that, but the major issue to me should be runoff more than the bluff
because the way I read the ordinance, if you have a bluff that's over a 30% grade, you can't build within 30 feet
of the peak of that bluff, well that, on a small plot, that can affect a lot of homesites. And there's no reason on
a, on a cliff type thing you couldn't put a house on the top of that bluff ff you take care of the railroad ties or
whatever it needed to conlxol the runoff. I've spoken a couple times with Ladd Conrad who's pretty up on this
and he was the one who voted against it at the Planning Commission and from what I understand, a lot of
research was put into this when they did this. When this ordinance was passed back ! don't know how many
years ago. And whoever was on that committee. Were you on that committee Mark? I thought one of the
Council members was on the committee I thought they said. Was it you Mike? And they did not recommend
that they use this for the whole city at that time and they could have obviously done that when they were
looking at this, at the study for this bluff ordinance. So I think we should stand back and look at this and not
just throw this ordinance which was made for the cliffs of the river, on everybody because it will affect a lot of
properties. It will affect mine. And if it adversely affects what you sell it for or how you're going to divide it
up or what you can do with it. I don't really think a 100 foot high cliff is...10 or 20 or 30 foot hill. I just hope
you guys look at it before you just go with what staff has said.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Maybe, Kate maybe you can clarify some of the questions that Mr. Coey has.
Kate Aanenson: I think we discussed this at the last time but just to refresh. This goes back to when the bluff
ordinance was adopted. It originally was to go city wide. That was the original discussion. Then there were...
that were concerned about the implication of the city wide and they decided at that time to apply this bluff area
along the river. There was an investigation of where it should be applied and briefly it was determined that
there may be some merit...obviously on Lake Lucy. Mr. Coey is in the process of dividing his property. We
don't believe that there is any, at this time, that would fall into the bluff. He does have significant slopes but we
don't think that they meet this definition. But again, the intent goes back to when we started doing the
Highway 5 corridor study and as you know one of the unique things Chanhassen has is some significant slopes.
And we certainly believe if they fall within that definition that they're worth changing. I mean saving, excuse
me. And not changing and altering topography so we think preserving our natural topography is a significant
value to the city. In addition there is always the opportunity for a variance. As you're coming through
subdivision, if there is a way that we can mitigate that, Mr. Coey's correct. Watershed runoff is one significant
to the impervious surface. The runoff from the roof and that. It affecls lhe shoreland. Gulleying and other
erosion. But it gives us an opportunity to answer...subdivision to apply for a variance and if you can mitigate
those, that would be an option so there is an opportunity to get relief fxom the ordinance but we certainly believe
that if something has that significant of slope, that we would recommend preserving it.
Mayor Chmiel: Right. And that's something that I think I mentioned Mr. Coey at that lime. That probably
what he had concerns about were probably not relating basically back to what this ordinance would be. And as
far as sort of rubber stamping it, I don't think we do that here. At all because we do make sure that there is
enough time to be given to the particular subject and that subject be put into the newspaper making sm'e that
citizens are well aware of it and it's their opportunity at that time to come in and really address those issues. So
with that I would like if there are any questions in regards to this.
Councilman Mason: That was pretty good. Kate, quick question. What is significant?
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Kate Aanenson: 30% rise...
Councilman Mason: In how many?
Kate Aanenson: 25 feet.
Councilman Mason: So 30% grade in 25 feet.
Kate Aanenson: Right. But and that's pretty significant.
Councilman Mason: Yeah, okay.
Kate Aanenson: Mr. Coey does have the slopes. I'm not sure if any of them really meet this definition but
there is some topography to his property.
Councilman Mason: Okay, thanks.
Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? Mark.
Councilman Senn: During first reading I kind of raised the issue over this and I think the advertisement in the
paper definitely is a step in the right direction but I still feel really uncomfortable with it. If these are minimal
areas and specific areas, I still would really like to see us sit down and define them and notify the people
involved. I mean we did that with wetlands and everything else and it just, I know there's variances and maybe
we've answered Mr. Coey's questions tonight but I'm just real uncomfortable with the fact that we're not
necessarily even going through the motions of really notifying the people that it's going to affect and who's
property going to be involved. I'm still uncomfortable with it.
Ted Coey: Don?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Would you like to come up?
Ted Coey: It's not a big deal. I just wanted to come up and say, I was only aware of it because I'm going
through the platting process now and it was brought to my attention by one of the guys who was interested that I
could have problems. I'm not looking at this from my perspective but there's a lot of people up here in this
community who would be here tonight speaking if they knew they had this problem. They won't f'md this out
until they go to plot. Or go to have a developer come'in and'say ooh, we can't do this because of this and this.
And I'm not, I'm not really against having developments come in,,.all the trees down so I'm not in..,leveling
everything off. I'm just saying that there is some, there could be some type of give'and take where if you've
got a 25 foot hill and it's got a 30% grade, that maybe you could put a house on the top if you did it right. And
so that's what bothers me. Once you get these rules in, then you're stuck with that unless you come in for a
variance...but I'm sure there would be a lot more people here had they known that their, like Mark said, their
land is going to be sacrificed they'd be here also.
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thanks.
Councilman Mason: A couple of quick comments. You know I'm not sure that the city should be in the
business of rooting out every particular case that applies 100% of the time. If staff has to spend a lot of their
10
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
time finding out, well there might be a slope over here. There might be one down there. You know it was
printed in the Villager and yeah, I know that sometimes that's not enough but the city has done something about
it and for every 15 people that the city might find, there's going to be 3 or 4 that we don't and so we're always
going to have that problem. So I share some of Councilman Senn's concern but I think that becomes a pretty
monumental task, I guess my second point is, from what I'm hearing from Kate, even though this ordinance is
passed, if there are legitimate reasons, variances do work and there still are ways of circumventing this in
isolated cases. So while I share that concern, I guess I don't want city staff, well I just think that would be such
a monumental task for every little change we make to notify everyone in the city on a personal basis. I don't
know how we could do that.
Mayor Chmiel: It does become a problem and it does become a chore. Colleen, did you have anything?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: No.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Richard.
Councilman Wing: I worked through the University and I talked to Kate about working through a slope
ordinance which really parallels this in that how can we protect our topography. Well, it's either going to be a
slope ordinance or in this case it's a bluff ordinance. But the decision we're making tonight is a very long term
decision. It's a long term issue but it needs to impact now. So we could notify everybody in the city and
everybody who's impacted could be here but still if we're going to protect our topography and our interesting
terrain as we talk about it, we need to do it now and I don't think that other comments would change or alter the
need to do this so I guess I kind of share Mike's feelings. If we're going to move on this, it's probably
reasonable. I think this is fairly flexible. I'm not sure what the definition of slope is. I wish we knew more
about that a little bit but it's kind of ambiguous thing trying to protect something we've got. I guess it's the
right start. If this isn't real successful then I would like to see an outright slope ordinance that says you can't
cut the hills down and you can't grade this and you can't do that and I think that would be more restrictive than
this so I think as a starting point, this is a good place to be. At least it gives staff some way to review the
projects coming in.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I would entertain a motion for this proposal.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I would move approval of the second reading of the amendment to the City Code
to adopt the definition of bluff to include city wide.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: City Code amendment. Moved and seconded. Any other discussions?
Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve t'mal reading of the
amendment to the City Code to adopt the def'mition of "Bluff" to include city wide. All voted in favor,
except Councilman Senn who abstained, and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: And I think you indicated your concern at the time. Thank you.
CONSIDER REQUEST OF SOUTHWEST METRO TRAIL ASSOCIATION TO UTILIZE
SOUTHWEST REGIONAL 'LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT ROUTE AS A SNOWMOBILE TRAIL.
11
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: In lieu of Todd not being here, are you going to do it.
Todd Gerhardt: Included in your packet was a memo from Todd Hoffman that was very detailed in the
background of staff and the Park Commission's review of this request. And you may also notice that the Park
Commission did not come to a formal recommendation to the City Council. That it was a 3 to 3 vote in
determining if this should be a snowmobile trail or not. With that, at this time I'd like to highlight the proposed
route and then invite Mr. Leroy Biteler to come up and make a formal presentation to the City Council and then
open it up for public comment. On the overhead you'll notice that the existing route for the snowmobile club
are highlighted with the dark black lines and the proposed routes that the association is asking for are the dark
lines with the black dots. As they fall along alignments for around Lake Riley and then down to the ralkoad
bed. That route is no longer an option as I am aware of this because Eden Prairie City Council has denied
access through their city. A second alternative to that route would be the route coming down through private
property, down to Pioneer Trail going east across TH 101 to the raikoad bed area~ This would be highlighted
with just black dots. There's also a third route which would be vacated and that is highlighted with a black line
with the slashes through them that goes on private property south of Lyman and then down County Road 17 to
Audubon. At this time I would invite Leroy to come up and make his presentation and then again open it up for
some comments...
Leroy Biteler: Good evening. My name is Leroy Biteler, 910 Penamint Court, Chanhassen and I've also invited
Mike up here to help me a little bit with the presentation. I'll let him introduce himself,
Mike Farkas: My name is Mike Farkas. I live at 7501 Chippewa Trail in Chanhassen. Leroy and I have been
working together on this project and we're going to just try explain a little bit more in detail about it.
Leroy Biteler: Mike is the expert on the map so when it comes to map questions, I'll def'mitely be turning
things over to him. Did you receive and have an opportunity to read through the packet that I mailed to each of
you? Do you have that packet or do you need an additional, that information? I have extras.
Mayor Chmiel: If you have extras, why don't you just pass those out.
Leroy Biteler: Okay. While he's passing those out I'd just like to tell you how I'm going to present to you
tonight. Basically you know our objective is to be able to get to the southwest or the wail system in Chaska
from Chanhassen via the raikoad bed. What I'd like to do is tell you what happened in Chaska with respect to
the railroad bed. What happened in Eden Prairie with respect to the railroad bed and our alternative routes. I'd
like to review the objections from the people that live along this raikoad bed and support some of their
objections with...part of the information that I have collected with respect to sound and some other things. So
and then at the end I have about a 7 or 8 minute video that videos the raikoad bed. I'd like you to look at that
with respect with snowmobiling in mind so you can see from a snowmobilers eyes or...what it looks like along
the bluff area and how high the bluffs are and where the homeowners live and how close they might be in
relation to the creek, And that would basically be the end of my presentation. Some of the things will be
repetitive from what's in the letter but I think some of the people that are here need to be aware of some of the
information that I have gathered, Chaska Park and Recreation Board has elected to approve the use of the
railroad bed in Chaska~ That will be going to the City Council on an upcoming date. I don't know the time.
Eden Prairie as of last Monday night had rejected our proposal to use the raikoad bed which entails about .5 of a
mile in Eden Prairie for this year. They rejected that basically due to $30,000.00 worth of seed that they will be
putting down and $30,000.00 includes seed and labor that they'll be pulling down in the park area out by Lake
Riley. And just with the thought of possibly somebody going across that and trespassing that area, they would
12
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
elect not to do anything this year with snowmobiles down in that general area They did however say that they
would like to look at this again in '95. They would like to provide an area for the residents of Eden Prairie to
be able to access the trail system. That's what Eden Prairie would like. So with that in mind we hope to attend
their Council meetings coming up sometime in September. The date is unknown. See what we can do at that
point again. So with that happening in Eden Prairie, that gave us the thought that we need to come up with what
we call a dry route. A dry route meaning you can get there whether it's a lake that's frozen or not, meaning
Lake Riley and since we couldn't cross Lake Riley this year because of the Eden Prairie denial, the dry route
would be the route we would like to use this year and I'd like Mike just to kind of highlight on the map the
route that we are looking to use as the dry route.
Mike Farkas: The dry route, it continues down CR 117, which was our original trail and then it would cross
private property here onto Pioneer Trail which will then take us east over to the border of Eden Prairie in
Chanhassen and we will drop down right basically in Chanhassen by a bridge that crosses over the old railroad
bed there. That's the location where we've chosen because everything else in these areas here of Bluff Creek is
a little bit more unaccessible by snowmobile as far as the ditches go. And it's our most possible or safest route
as far as giving us the most room in the ditch to get us over to that railroad. We're working with the
landowners at this time to secure the permission to get across their property. We haven't had enough time
because of we thought that Eden Prairie would let us through across Riley. We had obtained permission to get
on Riley in Chanhassen over some private property but that didn't quite work for this year. Maybe next year.
One other thing I would like to mention. On this map there's a few extra trails that we've given up to secure
our trail in Chaska through to get our railroad bed approved down there. Last year we had lost our whole trail
section here to Victoria which is 82nd Street. We still have our trail to this time onto Minnewashta over to
Victoria so basically what we're looking for is two trails out of town. One to the southern route to get us to the
river bottom, which is a state trail. One is to the west so it can get us out to the west trails and to the north up
to the Luce Line, which gets us out to Hutchinson, Watertown and those areas. This is, we're just basically
trying to funnel the people out of town and give them a way to access these trails. It's not like we have trails all
over any more. We basically just have two trails left at this time. However, we have one trail now. We're
trying to get two because we had lost that one...to the State trails in Chaslm. We gave that trail up to the...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Leroy Biteler: ...to give them the education so that they can ride snowmobiles. There's a piece in there that
talks about the sound in decibels of snowmobiles. In 1975 snowmobiles were determined that they could not
exceed 78 decibels. What that means so that you have an understanding of sound in decibels a little bit. In this
piece of information they talked about conversation at 3 feet is 70 decibels. They say an automobile at 50 feet
away, stepping on the gas is 84 decibels. A truck at highway speeds is 90 decibels. Inside an airplane is 100
decibels. Now how does that compare with sn6wmobiles? Snowmobiles were looked at from 1975 to 1989 in
one area of this report. Snowmobiles traveling between 10 and 20 mph, the decibels ranged from 65 to 73.
Keep in mind, conversation is 70. Snowmobiles between 1975 and 1989 I reiterate were at the top, at full
throttle, 78 decibels. There may be a few that are louder. Some of the older models but basically we're talking
from 75 to 89 and that's probably most of the machines that are out there right now. If you want to back up to
1969 for instance, go back to an older model snowmobile. At full throUle the decibel of that machine was 92.
In 1970 they came down to 86. The Shorewood trail which runs from Lake Minnetonka out to Victoria. There
was some sound considerations, problems that were thought to be. The Southwest Trail took it upon themselves
to do a very specific test with respect to sound in decibels of snowmobiles. What they did is they took 10
snowmobiles with very strict regulations, I might remind you, and those snowmobiles ranged from a 1972 all the
way to 1986. At 40 mph in 1981, a snowmobile with a 340 motor, average decibel was 74.9. In 1985 decibels
13
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
were 74. Another a 1984 Phaser, decibels were 75 at 40 mph. A 1980 J, decibels were 76.8 at 40 mph. Let's
look at an older model. 1973 PX440. It was 81. That is an older model. A 1972 Chaparral. Those decibels
was 87 at 40 mph. So you can see, if you look at something from 1980 on up, those decibels range at 40 mph,
from 74 to the low end, to 78.4 at the high end at 40 mph. Those decibels go down a little bit at 30 mph. They
also did a Shorewood, they went out in the street and set up the decibel reading machine. Automobile and track
traffic in front of the NSP circle parking lot at 50 feet from the road averaged 71.4 decibels. Traffic noise at the
intersection of County Road 19 and Country Club Road, a half a block north of the Shorewood City offices, 75
decibels. A small chainsaw averaged 83 decibels at 50 feet. The last couple items on decibels. We took the
decibel meter inside a home off of the Shorewood trail. Inside the home there was 65 feet away the trail. The
sound decibels inside the home, the ambient sound within the south ranked from 32 to 58. Snowmobiles went
by that home at 30 mph, the average reading was 50.5 decibels, At 40 mph it was 66.1 decibels. You've got to
keep in mind that the ambient sound was anywhere from 32 to 58 inside the home with no snowmobiles going
by. The loudest it was when the sled went by was 66 decibels. I reiterate, sound of conversation 3 feet away is
somewhere around 70 decibels. I really think the issue of sound is behind us, I think that was in 1970. The
issue of mining vegetation, should that come up, That was not a big issue that evening but the pressure that a
snowmobile puts on vegetation in relationship to the pressure that a person walking through the snow would put
on vegetation, in terms of pressure, the snowmobile is more gentle on vegetation than a person. In fact, it would
take 10 snowmobiles and their rider piled on top of each other to equal the pressure of one person. Again, that's
from the Minnesota Training Manual. I think the train that used to pass on this railroad bed is probably quite
louder than what we are going to create. Probably a lot more vibrations in the home as the train passes by also.
Another issue was walkers, skiers, hikers. Cross country skiers and snowmobilers don't mix. I can understand
your concern there. I suspect that we will have less traffic on that trail in the winter months than we will during
the summer months, like this past weekend, tt was a beautiful weekend to be outside. That trail is 15 feet to 17
feet wide. I believe that is plenty of room for everybody to mix and have a multi purpose trail. The Shorewood
trail is a good example. The Shorewood trail between Shorewood and Victoria, I've passed many people on that
trail that are walkers more so than a cross country skier. They're allowed on that trail. The Luce Line trail.
The Luce Line trail goes through Watertown. Starts at Stubbs Bay, Actually you can get all the way out to
Hutchinson on that trail. They are allowed walkers, skiers, bikers, horseback riders, pretty much everything is
allowed on that trail system. There's a trail system down in southeastern Minnesota down by Lanesboro and I
forget the other name of the city. It's down by Lanesboro of which they have an 8 foot wide trail, paved which
allows snowmobiles, cross country skiers, bicyclists and hikers. I'd like to pass a photograph around. That
photograph is from the river trail down by Lanesboro. You'll notice that there are two signs there. One sign
says no motorized vehicles except snowmobilers. On the other side you will see that they have a bicyclist, a
hiker and a cross country skier. These kinds of things do exist in Minnesota. We are not asking for something
out of the ordinary. If I can go back to the Luce Line trail for a moment. We can pass through Watertown.
There's an article here that says, adjacent to the trail, the peak on the Luce Line trail. More and more people
are constructing their $250,000.00 homes creating this section of rural America into one more suburb, My point
here is that the homes along the trail are not losing value because of this trail. They are probably adding some
value. There's some homes that are listed for sale along the Luce Line trail in the Watertown area They use
the trail as an asset. It says very private beautiful vista of wildlde, wetland on the Luce Line. Wooded acre on
the Luce Line trail. The issue of the trail decreasing your property values, it's more of an asset than it is a
decrease. Another article from a Luce Line trail that goes through Watertown. This happens to be a newsletter
of the Luce Line Trails Association, A well groomed trail designed to handle the travels of all users. Walkers,
joggers, bicyclists, horseback riders and our winter sports. Snowmobiling and cross country skiing in harmony
can be achieved by enthusiasts who are willing to work. Our club has a membership at this time of
approximately 73 family members. We have a roster here which has been included in your packet. These
members work real hard to keep our club and to keep our club active in the community and also our trail system
14
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
tight knit as we possibly can. We encourage people to talk to people if they're doing something wrong on our
trail. We have a list of signatures on a petition. There must be 8 pages. In excess of 100 names. Not all club
members. A lot of them are not club members, that are in approval and would like us to see us have the
opportunity to ride this trail system. Some of these people live along the trail. They may be here this evening.
I'll just mention a couple names that I have talked to and that have signed our petition. Nick Evanoff, Keith
Carlson, Sue and Paul Allen, Ed Mueller, Mr. and Mrs. Sabinski, Russ Barto, Ron Mathias. Sorry ff I mutilate
your name. Patty and Chris Weber. James Slxuble. David Metdke. These people live along the area and in the
area of this railroad bed. They are in approval of hoping to get a good access this trail out in their
neighborhood. I have a letter here from Brett Davidson, which is a previous land owner of which our trail
crosses 2 years ago. This letter, Mr. Chmiel, I don't believe got to you and the rest of you. If it did, it just
arrived very recently. I'm going to read a little bit of this letter because it is new to everybody on Council.
Brett Davidson. He lives at 7291 Galpin Blvd. I'm writing this letter to address the issue of the new proposed
snowmobile trail location. While I do not know all the particulars concerning this trail and as such cannot
address the specifics, I have had considerable dealings with the Snowmobile Club due to a snowmobile trail
being located on my properly. I have never owned a snowmobile nor do I enjoy the sport so I believe my
opinion is unbiased. I have lived in Chanhassen for 8 years. For the first 6 years the snowmobile trail was
located on my property. At frrst I was reluctant to allow the trail to be on my property but after discussing with
members of the snowmobile club I decided to allow it for a year to see the outcome. I must admit I was quite
surprised. The club was very professional and they seriously addressed all issues that were ever brought up. In
addition, it was obvious that they continually worked throughout the year to insure the trail remained in the
proper location and that the signage did not fail into disrepair. It became obvious that the vast majority of
snowmobilers was very responsible and could enjoy this sport without serious disruption to the surrounding
homes. That's the letter which you did not receive in the packet. Carver Parks recommends us in their park and
we have been in the Minnewashta Regional Park for some time. They also sent you a letter and
recommendation allowing us to use their trail. Basically supporting our club. The DNR is also supporting this
type of trail. The DNR works on these kinds of trails throughout the State of Minnesota. They have also sent
you a letter recommending the use of abandoned railroad grades as an ideal setting for this type of use as it is
already set up to function as a transportation system. In Chantmssen we have 462 registered sleds in the zip
code area 55317. Information provided to us by the DNR. We are basically providing a service to all those
people who have registered machines in our community. We provide that service. We do all the work. We
mark the trails. We do the best that we can. We'd like to continue to provide that service. Some of them are
members of our club who... Snowmobiling can be an exciting, fun family sport Our family has snowmobiled
for 17 years. I've snowmobiled since I was my son's age. My children are here this evening, Jeff and Miranda.
We would like to keep this opportunity as a family sport to be able to do it in Chanhassen as long as possible.
Two weeks ago my daughter asked me, while I was doing all this work on the snowmobile issues. She says,
dad. Will I be able to snowmobile when I become of age to ride? Miranda, I hope so. I'm working hard at
trying to keep that opportunity for my kids and there's many other kids out there. We just want to maintain that
same opportunity. We will bring law enforcement out to this trail system. Believe it or not. Maybe you'll see
more law enforcement out on this trail system than people along that railroad bed have ever seen. I see Al
Wallin here tonight. I kind of wish he was still here. I was talking with him 2 years ago when we made
arrangements with Carver County to bring their sleds out on our trail system to patrol. Unfortunately at that
time we had a couple old Arctic Cats that could barely make it from one end of the trail to the other. As a
matter of fact one of them did fail. Now they have two new machines. We will encourage them to get out
more. The DNR will be out to help us. We will palxol it ourselves the best that we can. As we have in the
past. The last thing I have is I'd just like to reiterate snowmobiling is not a long season. We may feel in
Minnesota we have a snowmobile season that lasts for 6 months because it's cold for half a year. That's not
right. We're lucky if we have snow by Christmas so ff we consider that we have December, January, and
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
February as snowmobiling months, that's probably 90 days. Out of those 90 days, and I'm going to be
conservative, let's say we have 60 days that we can fide snowmobiIes. Probably about all. ff that. My point is
we're asking for a very small percentage of time to use that trail. If there's not snow on that Wail, they aren't
going to be using it. It takes snow to make these machines mn properly. Otherwise you'll bum up things
underneath the track. So in our area snowmobile times are numbered. Snowmobile days are numbered. So
that's basically what I have to wrap up my presentation from the Ixxlium. Other than answering questions and I
truly would like you to see this 7 or 8 minute film with the snowmobiles on their mind as opposed to possibly
some other things when you may have been up and down the wail.
Mike Farkas: I would like to mention one thing before he starts. I don't know if any of the council members
have been on this trail. Have they been down it? Everyone's been down it then? I just hope that we look at
this as looking at these houses, there's maybe 1 or 2 that are fairly close, and they are quite a ways away.
(Leroy Biteler and Mike Farkas showed a videotape of the trail corridor at this point in the meeting.)
Mayor Chmiel: What I'd like to do before we go to questions, is to see if there are some people here who are
either in opposition or for this particular project. I know that many of you may have had discussions at the Park
and Rec Commission and those particular Minutes that we do have in our packets show those concerns. So if
there's something new that you'd like to bring out this evening, I would entertain those positions at this time.
I'd like you to just please state your name and your address and your basic concern. If you could limit it to
roughly about 3 minutes, we'd appreciate it. Is there anyone wishing to address Council at this time? Maybe
you could just sit down and we can get back to you.
Leroy Biteler: I certainly will Mr. Chmiel. We had one other person here. The President of our club who had
just a couple comments. It would be very short. Almost basically what you're asking for now that he'd like to
comment on.
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Charles Littf'm: Mr. Mayor. Council members. My name is Charles Littfm. I am the President of the
Snowmobile Club...particular or continue all this as a club, it helps to have trails to keep the club going. And
therefore I'd like to say that we want to be part of the community and to do that we need to have trails, I guess
basically it gets right down to it. Snowmobilers need trails. We will keep the trail going whether there are trails
or no trails and we will also continue to work with the city on the trails and other activities throughout the year
like Septembeffest and all the other activities that the city has come up with, Thank you for letting me speak,
Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Okay, I would entertain anyone who would like to come forward and express
your concerns.
Curt Bardal: My name is Curt Bardal and I live at 10301 Heidi Lane in Chanhassen. My mailing address is
Chaska and Mr. Mayor, Council members, citizens. I'd appreciate a moment. I'd like to first address the
Metro Snowmobile Association. Southwest Metro. I do appreciate your concerns. I am opposed to them. I
appreciate your concerns and I'm sensitive to your issue because you bring maturity, conscientiousness and a
safety factor to the sport that I only wish all participants brought to that sport. I do appreciate your attitudes and
what you bring to it and your conscientiousness, You mentioned a letter from Mr. Webber, He is a neighbor of
mine. He has snowmobiles. He has motorcycles. Rides them through the neighborhood. Maintains the
decibels. Good neighbor. Good person. Quality citizen and he participates in these activities, Also had some
16
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
other neighbors. Young fellow, dirt bike. I bet they didn't know what decibels was. Probably couldn't hear.
Enjoyed the area because of the serenity we spoke of earlier...should bring the bike off the top of the hill.
Roaring it down the street I wish the police enforcement could still be here now because I would like to thank
them. They're always very responsive. However, enforcement is difficult when somebody is shooting off over
the hill with loud decibels. And I want to emphasize, I sympathize with you. You nm a quality organiTation.
You obey the laws but when you open a trail like this, you open it also to those who do not necessarily abide by
those laws. You open the trails and there's a need for regulation and enforcement. Enforcement is a difficult
thing in this particular area because of the terrain. Where Hesse Farm adjoins the old railroad crossing and the
old railroad trestle, enforcement would be extremely difficult. We have in the past had a sportsmen experience
with hunters in the area. From the railroad trestle and south was an area deemed there could be hunting. From
the railroad track and north was non-hunting because it was residential. On occasion a hunter will cross that
railroad track and again I emphasize the vast majority, as in any other activity, the vast majority of hunters are
conscientious and law abiding. Wonderful individuals. Great to have a cup of coffee with and visit. See how
hunting went and any of the individuals who starts wandering up into the residential area. A few of the
neighbors have called. The police have responded and appropriately enough state that the police officers refuse
to pursue the hunter in the residential area appropriately because he was dressed in brown. There's a deer hunter
also with a gun. It'd be rather foolish to pursue this person. Now what are his reasons for going into that area,
whether it was after a wounded animal. A downed animal somewhere, we do not know. Never did fred out
who the individual was. It is not an enforceable situation. This relates to snowmobiles. How do you enforce
when you have someone getting off the trail onto private property? It may not be enforceable. The terrain is
such to pursue this individual, to identify them, to correct the situation is just prohibitive in that area. So I have
a serious question number one about the regulation and how it can be enforced. I just don't see how our fmc
police force could do this. A second issue is a safety issue. The area and the slopes and the bluffs below Hesse
Farm is an area that our children find an adventuresome area. Wildlife, trees, places to camp in summer. Places
to slide in the winter. They have on occasion walked along the railroad track since the train has been pulled out.
They enjoy the area but I envision twilight hours, I envision when they're down there in the evening, when
they're...evening to do some sliding. Walking along the railroad trail and here comes a snowmobiler. And in
bad visibility, we have an accident in an area that is not accessible. So safety is a great concern to me in this
area. And excuse me if I'm being redundant on issues that have already been presented but I'm new to this so
these are my feelings I'm presenting. Thffdly, environmental concern. I'm not sure how many of us are...found
this out myself. In that particular area below Hesse Farm is one of the last remaining trout streams in this area.
However minuscule a resource it is, it is a significant natural resource in the fact that at one time there were
several trout streams in the entire metro area. I believe the last count there were 7 viable trout streams left. One
of the 7 is Assumption Creek. I would like to invite further information because I recently found this out
myself. But if this be true that we have this resource here in Chanhassen, I feel it should be examined. It
should be protected. Something that should be cherished, There is some concern for that area now because
development in Chaska that is off the watershed from...and it has brought some nmoff to that stream. But the
stream is mostly spring fed from below Hesse Farm. This environmental factor for me goes back to the hunting
issue. If hunting is continued to be allowed below the railroad tracks, the hunter wants to have the animal in the
field is...by law at this point is allowed to pursue that wildlife, to retrieve it with snowmobiles. This in fact
would leave snowmobile tracks off the snowmobile trail. Once this has been occurred, say in the November deer
season, the tendency would be to follow this wail. If this gets into, and I know there's a lot of ifs here. Into the
area of this slream, Assumption Creek, is there environmental concern? Is this a question that has been ~ at
all? I don't have answers. At this point myseff I only have questions. Also environmental concerns in pursuit
of wildlife. I do have concerns with snowmobilers that are as couseientious as the snowmobilers who are here
tonight that will pursue the fox and deer, the occasional coyote and other rabbits and wildtife we have in the
area. As a resident in the area, I don't want to exclude people from coming and enjoying the neighborhood. I
17
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
think for hikers, for bikers, for cross country skiers, that it would be less impact on the animals and wildlife
around. It's a cherished area and I would not presume to be so selfish as to excuse people from viewing the
natural beauty there. And finally I would ask the Council, whatever decision you arrive at, please do not arrive
at it in haste. Do take a long time to consider this. Is an environmental impact study necessary? I don't know.
But is it a concern because if we decide something in haste, find out years later we lost a valuable resource that
could not be restored, it would be quite regrettable. So finally I'm asking please, please take a long time.
Consider the many, many things that not only I have mentioned but the snowmobile club, there are many issues.
So again thank you for your time.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Nancy Mancino: Mayor, Councilmen, Councilwoman. My name is Nancy Mancino, 6620 Galpin Blvd. I do
not live in this area nor am I for or against snowmobiles but I would like to say I live on Galpin Boulevard and
I think about 3 years ago, or 4 when Jerome Carlson built there and...property, it was one of the trail systems
that went from Galpin to Highway 4t and they would cut across there. I live just north of that area and we're
probably as the crow flies, about a half mile north. Quarter mile north of there...that most of the time, I would
say 75% of the time it was just fmc having snowmobilers. However, there were many, many occasions at 2:00
and 3:00 in the morning that we would hear the snowmobilers going through that trail. And there was nothing
you can do. You can't go out and stop them...by that time they were gone. So what I have, that's very hard,
was the enforcement of the hours and it was again, just to wake us up. Even though you couldn't actually see
our house...as I said, we were about...hatf a mile away so the sound just reverberated all over. So I am...
decibels but I can tell you what it was like in the distance of the, or around the trail. Secondly, I just have a
public safety issue and that is, there is no, as far as I know,..Iraining snowmobilers, which I really think is too
bad because one of the things that we fred, we have a road that goes into Galpin Blvd. and snowmobilers use the
west side of Galpin Blvd. to travel. And many times we have come down the end of our driveway and there are
young men, I think they are young men. Teenage...snowmobiters and they just, they don't even look where our
driveway comes into Galpin and there have been a couple times when we almost hit a snowmobiler so I do have
some concerns if this trail were to txaverse a highway and how it was built. I would hope that the State does do
some son of licensing and training of snowmobilers at an early age. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Joe Kandlko: My name is Joe Kandiko. I live at 10421 Bluff Circle in the City of Chanhassen. A couple
issues brought up by the snowmobilers that I would like to take issue with. The idea of mutual use on the
snowmobile trail of hikers, skiers and snowmobiles I have found not to be tree. Walking the trail between
Chaska and Shakopee where it's a maintained trail and many of the trails that are down in the Louisville swamp
area, you hear a snowmobile coming. You're on .~ld~. You have kids with you and you immediately head to the
side and the snowmobiles are not the ones that give way when they're coming down 25-30 mph or more. I
don't find it mutually accessible use of trails and I don't think it's in the interest of safety. Many times we,
when hearing that whine, would have to scurry our kids off to the side of the trail for safety sake and I never
saw a snowmobile slow down on an open straight away for a pedestrian. The noise level that was mentioned,
I'm a physician. I know about decibels and he's off by a power of 10. It's 7 decibels at 3 foot conversation
range, not 70. Higher than 115 decibels was the inside the Melxodome at the World Series. 70 is not 2/3 of
what a conversation range is at 3 feet. Comparing things of ambient noise level in a house assumes that
everybody's up, TV's are going, conversation is going. When you're asleep, any noise is enough to wake you
up and I think that to say that it's 75 or 82 or 72 decibels, if it's quiet at night and you get awaken, that's a
night's sleep lost. And I think this has to be considered that the hours don't stop when you are in bed or your
18
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
kids are in bed. Many times, and fight now that snowmobile is not, that snowmobile trail is supposedly non-
motorized vehicles. 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. from my house, which is just up the bluff, not being able to be seen on
that video. However, the video is taken fight now. You take that video in January and you'll see 20 more
homes from the distance that he's talking about. So just because he can't see them through fully leafed trees
doesn't mean that there's a lot more accessible trails there. And if he...night's sleep with the whine of those
engines at 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 in the moming, is not at all pleasant. I would encourage you to think that this is now
a residential area, Chanhassen cannot go backwards. There are places for these snowmobiles that are on a fight
trail and established residential development I think is not considering the day life and night life of the residents
of those places. Policing is indeed impossible. Once those people are on that trail, there's only one way out and
there's only two access points. Bluff Creek Drive and TH 101 and if you can't get on at either of those places,
you're stuck. And the same things have happened as Bardal referred to with hunters. Once they're in there,
you're not going to find them and that's been a problem with enforcing any of these rules. A snowmobile goes
by, you call 91 I. They're never going to find them and that's been an issue that we found not only with hunters
but also certainly with the snowmobilers. So I encourage you to take into consideration the people who border
on these properties. We didn't buy it to live on a snowmobile trail. What he's referring to as far as homes
being enhanced by the Luce Line Wail, I'm sure if you said you can listen to snowmobiles at 2:00 and 3:00 in
the morning if you buy this house, you'd end up with a few less... So I think you have to consider that a lot of
what they say, we're not trying to put snowmobiles out of business but I think there's appropriate Wails already
set up for that. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks.
Boyd Peterson: My name is Boyd Peterson, 9860 Pioneer Circle and it's kind of wild to sit here and listen to
this by the residents of Chanhassen. You've obviously got some people that don't like snowmobiling. They're
trying to cop out some ways to say hey, we don't like them and this and that noise issue. Go away. They're
loud. Everybody forgets about the airplane. I live close to Flying Cloud. They go over all the time. They're
loud. Can you do anything? No. Riley Lake, same deal. You sit and listen to the motorboats going around
and around and around...there is all this crazy noise. Okay, everybody's doing their thing. I have no problem
with a trail in front of my house to get to the main Hennepin County corridor. That's a light mil corridor at the
time. That's what it is and we all should be able to use it. Eventually it's going to be a wain coming out that
and then nobody's going to use it. There's been an old railroad train going up and down that since 1920. It's in
my Abstract. It says it in there. Railroad trains are...dirty things. You know what's this environmental impact
stuff when this old greasy train's been going over all them years and there's still trout down there. As far as
able to get off of that when you're on it with a snowmobile is almost impossible. It's either straight up or
straight down. Or it's got fences. Once you get on at the access point the snowmobile club is asking for, it's a
straight shot to Chaska. So my view is let's l~eep it inChanhaSsen and sure there's bad apples that are going to
ruin every group but you know, do you make the laws for them or for the people that put a lot of work... I've
heard some people...watch a good chunk of that property in from that's going to be used for snowmobile wails
and a lot...if I remember, everybody has a fight to that trail. You're always going to have your bad apples here
that ruin it. You're always going to have people that don't like what somebody else does. And we're 1995.
Snowmobiles are ever quieter today than they were 6 years ago. Thanks.
Resident: Don, can I have a right to rebuttal on the environment?
Mayor Chmiel: I'd rather not go into that fight now. I'd like to get the rest of the people who have some
concerns.
19
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
David Gatto: Thank you Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. My name is David Gatto. I live at 9631 Foxford
Road. I have a question. You indicated that the trail, because you can't use Eden Prairie's is going to come
across Pioneer Trail. Can someone tell me more about that? Where's it going to come from on Pioneer Trail?
Mike Farkas: You know where CR 117 that goes by Lake Susan.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: 17.
Mike Farkas: Or 17, excuse me. Okay, out of Chanhassen there. Okay, that's the original route and then what
we're doing is proposing the trail to go through private property down to Pioneer Trail.
David Gatto: Where is that point on Pioneer Trail?
Mike Farkas: Okay. Approximately I'd say about a half a mile west of Halla Nursery.
David Gatto: Okay. And then continuing.
Mike Farkas: 3/4 of a mile.
David Gatto: Continuing east?
Mike Farkas: It will continue east on the south side, all the way to where the bridge is that goes over the
railroad. The old abandoned raikoad and will drop down on the Chanhassen side of the border there and then
we proceed south towards Chaska.
David Gatto: Okay, thank you. I'm actually here for another issue tonight but I'm glad I'm here. Whether
because we've got some comments regarding the Halla issue but as I listen to this, these people want to come
across right in front of my house and I happen to own 400 feet on Pioneer Trail and I must say that I wouldn't
be in favor of this at all. I've had snowmobilers come across on Pioneer Trail there and I'm sure it's not any of
these people because they sound responsible but the problem again is the people that aren't and the problem is
what they'll do is about 2 or 3 years ago I planted several small seedling trees and now they're spruce trees and
they're about this big. And what I think might happen and what I've seen happen is the folks who come across
Pioneer Trail and they see the nice fresh snow down on my property and they run right through the ditch and
they've been on as far as 30 feet inside of my property with their snowmobiles and I'm afraid they're going to
run over the trees and cause other damage and I wouldn't be in favor of that at all. This is the first time I've
heard about this. I'm extremely surprised. They say that theY're working with the homeowners but as a
homeowner and I own 400 foot along Pioneer Trail, I wouldn't be in favor of it at all. Thank you very much.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Anyone else?
David Huffman: Hello. My name is David Huffman. I'm a commissioner on one of the commissions, the Park
and Rec department. I was at the meeting last time. I guess I'm the sacrificial lamb this evening. I ask the
Council if you have any questions, I am nervous speaking in front of large groups so forgive my...as we go
through this. We had several different issues that we talked about that evening. They've been covered by a lot
of different people very eloquently, There were two major issues that they were ~_alking to the Council before
and after that were of great concern to us. One was the lack of information given to the homeowner community.
We did not want to see that we were raikoading people into a quick and early decision. There seemed to be a
20
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
group of individuals on Heidi Lane who had not been contacted. Inadvertently or advertently. We did not go
out of our way to exclude anybody. We had a good discussion from a lot of ddferent individual.q, The major
concern that did come up was dual use in this Wail. It cannot m-exist I mean that's what we came up with and
that's what we thought about. It was our understanding that Hennepin County at some point along that corridor
was going to have cross country skiing. We talked about that a little bit. You already read the notes or most of
the concerns with the cross country skiing issue and the existence of the snowmobiles caused a great deal of
concern. For myself in particular and some of the other members. We had a 3-3 vote. The f'u-st time allowing
the snowmobiling to continue along that corridor. It was a fie. We had 6 members. It was another, the second
vote was to disallow snowmobiling along there. That was also a 3-3 fie. We need to know as a commission
and we sent it on, what was going to be the use of that trail and that was our concern, ff cross country .~kiing is
going to be allowed, it is going to be groomed, there's going to be a problem from our perspective of the dual
use. The other reality is, this is a light corridor system that allows people to get from one spot to another very
quickly. There will be no bohr'acs. There will be no camping. They move from Point A to Point B. They
move down into Chaska. Down to the Minnesota Valley State area. They move quickly into an area that allows
snowmobiling because Eden Prairie does not allowing snowmobiling does not mean that this...body does not
have a few more brains than Eden Prairie. I think this is a very volatile issue on a lot of sides but we sent it up
here. It is our recommendation, after talking to several people on our side on our issue, is that we need some
direction. Some help in terms of the use of the trail. If the trail's going to be cross country oriented, then it's
not going to do us any good to have snowmobiles there. If it's not going to be groomed, taken care of and the
fees collected, the same problem with cross country skiers in terms of use, then from our perspective there's no
problem for using the trail for snowmobiling. Did I get it fight or not? Close? Questions, comments, concerns.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess not. Not at this time. You only had 6 commissioners out of.
David Huffman: There were 6 commissioners and we had a 3 to 3 tie both ways.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Anyone else?
Paul Graffunder: My name is Paul Graffunder. I live at 10001 Great Plains Boulevard and this thing is kind of
a bonus issue for me. I'm not here for this either but we happen to have a 55318 zip code where I live and...
My boys and I do snowmobile quite a bit and about all we get to do is go mound our house. There's just
nowhere for us to go that I feel it's safe. I would love to have this. We've lived there for quite a while and I
used to hear the train and that was okay. The noise wasn't bad. But we would really love to have this.
Mayor Chmiel:
Good, thank you. Yes.
(There was a tape change at this point in the meeting.)
Willard Halver: ...My house is shown there. I'm 250 feet from the old railroad bed. And I've lived there 37
years and it seems as though my yard, my house is a challenge for target for rock throwing off the railroad bed.
The 10th of June this year I picked up 47 rocks. I put a call in to Scott Ham. They said Scott Hart was on...
put down the information and said there wan't anyone available here at Chanhassen. Said I'd have to call the
Sheriff's Department. So I called the Sheriff's Department and the Sheriff's Department gave me the
information that they were on an emergency and I'd have to wait a while. Well by that time the individuals that
had been throwing these rocks, I saw him. I know who he is. I know him fight today. He was gone. ff you
don't catch the man...half an hour to follow him before I get an officer down there. No. No way. I called
21
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
the...call the Sheriff's department. 9 weeks later, last Friday evening. Now this lb'st incident happened on a
Friday afternoon about 1:30.2:00. Last Friday evening I'm in my double garage working on my lawn tractor and
my wife's in the basement and we hear some strange noises. And here are rocks are coming again. So I put a
call in, my wife put a call in to 911. This was an after 5:30 in the afternoon. It was half an hour. The
individual was gone. Now I got the license number and I'm waiting for the deputy sheriff that finally came
there in 15 or 20 minutes. He took my story for further action. But it seems to be a target. I am definitely,
until we get some enforcement, which I haven't seen in 37 years. We're down in that southeast corner there.
You might as well say we're down in you know what USA. We don't know what law enforcement is down
there. It's that hard to get. And I don't know why. We pay our taxes and everything. So...until we get
enforcement, I'm not against snowmobiling at all. But when these individuals are under the influence of drugs
and alcohol and throwing these rocks, I've got a big chip on the siding on this episode that happened this last
Friday night. And Don Fox, the Deputy Sheriff is the one who investigated the case, and this is just starting to
move now. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Jim Sulemd: I'm Jim Sulerud at 730 Vogelsburg Trail. I'm here for another issue too, like several of my
neighbors and I guess several of these are focusing down in that area. Couple of things. One is that when I want
to go canoeing I put my canoe on the car and drive across town or somewhere else to go canoeing. If I want to
go cross country skiing, I put my skis on the car and go somewhere else to cross country ski. I can walk and
jog out my door but I can't even bike out my door. I haven't been able to in the past so I've got to put the
bikes on the car and go somewhere else. There was a horse in that south end of town, you'd have to load up the
horse and go somewhere else in most cases. I'm suggesting that for snowmobilers it's maybe the same thing.
You put your snowmobile on a trailer and go down to the river bottoms or you go out to existing trails. It's not
incumbent upon the city to provide out the door access. Another aspect is that I think maybe my family is the
present user of the trail, even though it's not open right now. We live about a couple hundred yards up the road
and we're on that trail literally daily. Often times twice a day. All I can say is that when I say we, I mean my
wife jogs. I don't get out there as often as she does but she jogs year round. What we, our kids use it for
biking and running. The primary use we've seen of the trail so far, unopened as it is, is people walking and
there's quite a few. I don't know where they all come from but there's a lot of people who walk on the trail.
The second biggest use, I want to say numbers of people are bikers and then it's joggers and after that it's dirt
bikes and then cars. Some of that has cut down in the last...I would suggest that it's probably going to continue
to be heaviest used by walkers in the wintertime. Cross country skiing is a slight possibility but I cross country
ski but that area of the track, the railroad bed there is bare most of the winter. The sun hits all that exposed area
and it's bare for most of the time unless it's real heavy snow because it's very exposed to the sun on that south
elevation. So I would say half a mile to a mile is, snowmobilers come through there. I'm surprised that some
do. I'm sure it ruins their equipment but they've come through there in the past. But I would say that it's not
going to be a conflict between cross country skiers and snowmobilers but it will be the walkers and my wife will
continue to jog. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Bill Kullberg: Mr. Mayor, City Council. My name is Bill Kullberg. I am the past President of the State
Snowmobile Association and the current trail adminisWator for the Southwest Trail Association. But I'm here
tonight also as a Park Commissioner for the city of Minnetrista and as a helpful hint for you to direct your Park
Commission, we have been involved with trails and trails in our community were nowhere as developed as what
Chanhassen has but we have been working with the trails and waterway unit with the Department of Natural
22
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Resources and I believe the contact person there would be Mr. Dan Cowens. He's gone to a number of seminars
that address the multiple use concept. The user complex. I sat through the Park Commission meeting here a
number of weeks ago and there was one young lady who was really advocating cross country skiing. But as we
groom these trails in Carver Park, there's even a conflict between the style of cross country skiing. There's in
line skiing and they want little tracks and then there's the scissor type for ski skating type of situation so there's
conflicts there. Developing conflicts between walkers and bikers that I had not heard about until I got involved
with trails. This kind of information I think would be very helpful to your Park and Rec Commission. I cut out
a little article just recently that dealt with Carver Park and other, Lake Independence and so forth. They're
having problems with bicycles going off of their trails and they had Rangers out there doing patrol and it's the
mountain bikes that like to get off into the more rugged terrain and I can see where they're going to go down
this railway and want to get up and down by the bluffs and so forth so there are environmental issues. It
wouldn't just be snowmobiling that your Park Commission's going to be dealing with. May be well advised to
get this kind of education because you're going to have more conflicts or at least use of this trail but you also
have pan of the trails that goes between Shorewood and Victoria with a small section that we have used for a
number of years for snowmobiling. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else?
Leroy Biteler: Just a couple of comments on some of the things that were brought up. With respect to...along
that trail. We can post that trail and put curfews on that trail to whatever we determine is an appropriate curfew
for that area. There are curfews in other areas such as the Shorewood area. I believe it's 10:00 or 11:00 and we
do patrol that area at night with the groomer and with automobile telephones and we do some ticketing with
respect to people that are not meeting the curfew. So if we can help you with the curfew issue. Mr. Kandiko
you mentioned some information with regards to sound decibels. I may be off a little bit but I'm not from 70,
which I mentioned conversation is 70 and you mentioned that it should be number 7. I'm very close in my
decibels ratings with respect to conversation. I work with...wall partitions which deals with sounds transferring
from one side of the partition to the other and they just get some common loudness levels. Just speaking of
regular, average street noise is 70 in their case. Conversations at 3 feet away is 60. Just like to correct that. I
may be off a little bit but I'm not off from 70 to single digit 7. I think you indicated people breaking the law.
It is difficult to catch people breaking the law on snowmobiles. That is why we have in the past actually
brought sleds out to the trails with deputies on it so that we can help maintain law and we generally have people
from our club assisting these deputies and we have ticketed people. I'd like to see that, those tickets be heavily
enforced and see the dollar volume go up for the people that are breaking the law. David Catcherall, I'm not
sure I pronounced your name but if the trail does go down Pioneer Trail, in fact it will be a marked trail. It will
be an enforced trail. We'll be able to take care of the areas such as one of our landowners sent us a leuer of
recommendation that he was surprised at how well we Were able to maintain... We have an area that there's a
problem, you need to contact us and we need to deal with that problem. There's a variety of ways and I truly
believe that we can that some of the people have recommended our services to Council. Which land we crossed
in the past. I think that's basically all I need to address. I think you have enough information from the packet
that I sent you previously.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you.
Leroy Biteler: We would like to see you help us make this decision, pro or con. We've been doing this since
March 22nd which was the last snow season. Coming upon the next one. I can't believe it's taken this long. I
guess that's the way politics works. It's my first experience with this. Thank you very much. Appreciate your
time.
23
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I guess I've heard some of the pros and cons to the issue and there are several things
that I had written down with some of the concerns I had. Number one was curfew. The hours of operation.
What were the city's liabilities, even though the club has an insurance portion on it. But even if they have that,
the city automatically gets brought into any suits that may come up from something as such. Barricades. Some
sharp tums within that particular area and I understand that you're looking at some types of barricades but I'm
not sure what those barricades might be. I wanted more information regarding distances from homes and I
would also like to get the Minutes from the Eden Prairie park Commission and if and what discussions were
done by the City Council as well. I would like to send this back to the Park and Recreation Commission,
number one and the reason for that is that there were 6 commissioners there. The total commission was not
there. There's 7 members and that one additional member may have tendencies to either break that tie from one
to the other but I would like to get a recommendation back from the commission. And I guess that's where I'm
coming from with this. Richard.
Councilman Wing: I'm in my can't put my thoughts together mode. I want to pass for now.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Colleen.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well I've got notes all over the place so my thoughts may not be together. A little
bit scattered but they'll be out there. I came in, let me preface it by.saying that I don't snowmobile. However I
see, and I don't recall who but someone made the reference to hunting and these are two, what I call, so called
sports. Snowmobiling and hunting which are rapidly disappearing in the metro county area and we see the areas
to hunt diminishing every year and eventually snowmobiling will not be allowed in our community. Just the
population growth won't allow it. However there's along history in our community of allowing both of these
things and as we continue to grow I guess I'm not ready yet to let go of that opportunity for our citizens. I
think if we're going to allow it in the city, and as I said, I'm not ready to let it go, I think this is the ideal
location. It keeps them out of the ditches. It provides a safe place. However, as Dave brought up, it's not
compatible with any other use during the winter months and I strongly believe that and I guess I have a question
and since Todd Hoffman isn't here, I'll direct it to you Todd. Who decides what the winter use is? Can we,
can the city decide that no cross country skiing will be allowed there? Or is that up to Hennepin Parks?
Todd Gerhardt: Hennepin Parks has put it back onto the local jurisdictions to determine what the uses will be.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Any use? Okay. And another way to enforce that is with signs in terms of saying
this is a snowmobile trail and any other uses or at your own risk, I guess what I propose to my fellow Council
members is that we do a trial run for the '94-95 season. I would like to put some restrictions on the time. I
don't see anything later than 10:130 p.m. all week long. Let's'see, what else did I write down. I had a question
as to someone brought up that once you're on the trail it would be hard to get off. I'd like some verification of
that. If this does go back to Park and Rec, I'd like that addressed. I guess that summarizes. And I would also
propose that we have a speed limit and I think what the Association is a.qking for is 40 and since the decibels do
go up with each increasing mile per hour, I'd like some limitation on that. I don't have a suggested number. I
also have a question as to what the frae is for after hours use. Can anybody answer that right now? I mean is it
substantial to deter.
Leroy Biteler: We would like to see it be whatever the city makes it.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Do you know what it is currently?
24
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Leroy Biteler: I don't know myself unless Bill Kullberg knows what you do in Shorewood.
Bill Kullberg: It'd be a misdemeanor so-they have various gradations. Some cities you're allowed to go straight
home if you live in that city. In the city of Shorewood we have worked currently as they have passed their
ordinance so no matter who you are, if you're on that trail, the rail grade after 11:00 you're going to get a ticket
whether you live next door to the Mayor. So I mean that gave law enforcement more of a tool.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Like that would make a difference.
Mayor Chmiel: We don't do that. Let me just ask Scott. He woUld have probably a pretty good inlde as to.
Scott I-Iarr: Well any violation of city code is a criminal misdemeanor chargeable by citation and formal
complaint with jail time and a substantial fine possible. The snowmobile regulations in conjunction with the
noise ordinance are so specific that to provide a more specific report I'd have to ask for some additional time,
which I would be happy to do or maybe this is a project that the Park and Rec Commission wants to work on
with the Public Safety Commission as well. But the short answer is any specific violation of the city ordinance
is a criminal misdemeanor.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, thanks. I guess that's my proposal. I'd like to hear what everyone else
thinks but I would say that we give it a trial mn for '94-95. Reduce the hours to 10:130 p.m. all week and reduce
the speed limit to some reasonable amount, o
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I guess maybe I should preface my statement before I get to you Michael. I too am on a
snowmobile route that goes past our house for the past 18 years and there are sometimes that the 2:00, 3:00 in
the morning does occur. It is rare but it does happen. And as far as encroaching on property. Yeah, I've had
that situation happen as well. Where they have taken out one of my hugo pines. It's something that I guess I
sort of get used to because I've got one of my sons that has a snowmobile as well. So I sort of chalk it up as
experience but that 10:00 curfew time is I think something that we should really look at. Let me go to you.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: I have, excuse me, one more item that I just found. I just lost it.
Councilman Wing: You should have used different color ink.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: I should have used different color ink. Sorry.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Michael.
Councilman Mason: Well, while you're searching for it. Note, we're all jotting notes tonight. East meets west.
Progress. Should we have snowmobiles or not. I live in Carver Beach, Woodhill Drive. I don't have a
snowmobile. I don't snowmobile but a lot of people in Carver Beach snowmobile and they come up and down
Woodhill Drive and no, I don't particularly like it but that's the way it is. You know, my lake place. Well, my
father's lake place. Before there was a grant and aid trail, about a half mile away from the cabin, snowmobilers
went all over the place up there and I didn't like it. With that trail, snowmobilers use that trail a lot and there
isn't as much traffic elsewhere. That's a plus. I heard residential area. That it's a residential area and my guess
is it will become more of a residential area. Who's held accountable? Who's liable? If there's an accident on
the trail, does the city get sued because a snowmobile hitting a hiker. Cross country skier. Go off the bluff
because it wasn't marked, You know, hopefully we can always compromise on issues. I don't think there's a
25
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
compromise here. It seems to me we'll either do it or we won't. I think we need some more information before
I make a decision because I have, quite honesty I'm really sitting on the fence fight now. I agree with the
people that want a trail to snowmobile. I think there should be one but I also would not like the snowraobile
going down next to my house. I will say right now, we're t_a. lking about, you know Colleen you threw out
10:fi). Well, I can't cross country ski in Carver Park after sunset. The park's closed at sunset and I've been
chased out of there more than once, much to my consternation. So 10:fi), you know my kids go to bed before
10:fi) so if it comes to that, 10:00's too late for me. But I guess I would like to, Scott said he wanted, needed
some time to look at some issues. I'd like to explore accountability and liability issues before I make my, how I
feel one way or the other. I think, I forget the gentlemen that talked about, the name who said he's got to put
his skis on top of the car and bike on top of the car, his canoe on top of the car. As Chanhassen grows, those
are issues that all of us that like to engage in recreational activities have to face.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks, Mark.
Councilman Senn: Boy, this to me kind of seems like government at it's best and I mean that facetiously. You
know it seems to me that the County decided it doesn't want to deal with an issue so it's kind of advocated it to
the municipalities and you know it really seems to be a little bit silly and somewhat awkward that we're sitting
here trying to decide that fate of one section of trail and just kind of, are we going to ask people to make U
tums and say only this portion of the trail can be used for this. That portion for this, this and this. It seems to
me that there are some real valid issues here but I think how the trail is used is one which Hennepin County
ought to decide and I think in the process of doing it, they ought to do a lot more studying than we've done and
I think they also ought to ask for our input. But I see our role as more one of input into a whole trail system
than I do deciding the fate of one small section of trail. There's, you know I guess I'd have to say I'm a little
bit like Michael at this point. I'm really kind of not sure which way I'd actually vote if a vote comes tonight. I
live on a heavily traveled snowmobile area where there are almost continuously 2:00 to 3:00 runs to the fish
houses, etc. And I can say geez, I don't notice the boats much in the summertime but then I've got a lot of
trees with a lot of foliage on it. But I tell you what, in the wintertime I notice them and they wake me up
constantly. At the same time I like snowmobiles but most of the time I go do my snowmobiling somewhere
else. Of course I have to say that about biking too so. No doubt that really the people before us tonight as far
as the snowmobiling goes, are responsible people and are probably doing a lot to forward the good of the cause
so to speak but at the same time I've experienced and I know that there's a lot of people that don't look at it as
conscientiously as you do. I have them using my kids skating rink as a jump and I have them using my business
property rather than the ditch and they have...trees and other things like that. I think you have a tendency to
pretty much write some of that off because again, no matter what you do...and I don't think that's only to
snowmobiling. I think it's whatever recreational activity undertaken. So I don't know. Like I said, I'm really
kind of tom both ways on this one but I would really rather see, given the importance of that corridor, the
importance of that particular trail as part of an overall system, I'd much rather see a comprehensive approach to
that dealing with the entire trail and corridor than the approach which is now being taken.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Richard.
Councilman Wing: I think my favorite time of the year is spring and fall because the boats and the snowmobiles
are gone and very, very frankly the boats are much more irritating and a bigger problem, especially out on
Minnewashta where all the inboards are. It's just a, and you know when the boats are gone, the snowmobiles
are gone, the traffic noise makes up for it. So I don't know if we're going to win this. On this whole issue I
just want everybody to like me so it seems to be almost hopeless.
26
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Mason: Good luck.
Councilman Wing: A couple quick comments just going down my notes. Enforcement on these issues are
general enforcement issues. We're not out, no one is ever going to target a specific snowmobile or a specific car
or a specific boat so when we have a problem, Scoa Harr reacts in a general way. And if we have to send 12
sleds out or line the place with police officers, it gets done. But it's general. It's not specific so if someone has
a specific problem with a specific sled, that's kind of light. That's the same with the car and anything else but
we do have the ability to go out and enforce an area if there is a problem that develops and there's no question
about that. Winter use is extremely limited. Snowmobiling is exlxemely limited. There's no snow, there's no
problem. Daytimes aren't an issue. Weekdays really aren't a problem. I live on a trail. It's the weekends that
they're busy. They used to be noisy. They used to be a problem. There used to be swarms of them. Now
they're limited in numbers. It's not as popular as it used to be. They're much quieter. Right next to our house
is an access for the neighborhood. What a nightmare that was but it literally doesn't exist anymore so the
problem that I once knew, I used to own one and I got so frustrated with them that I sold it so I could gripe.
Because of all the griping I won't ever go back into it so there's a lot of pros and cons here. The cross country
skiers, that's my biggest problem because I'm the liule scooter type guy and the skaters come in and ruin the
trail so come in and groom the wails and the skaters come in and annihilate the cross country trail. They're not
compatible. I do find on our trail going through Shorewood, is that if there's no snowmobiles, there's some
cross country skiing, unless it ices up. But if there's snowmobiles, then there's jogging because they pack it
down so I t-md that for my personal winter use, for jogging, it's convenient for me to have the snowmobiles
because they pack it down. I have a running surface to run on. So you know, pros and cons again. I really
agree with Mark. I think first of all I think this should go back to, take our comments and go back to Park and
Rec and hit this head on with the full group and I would like to be there too and address it myself as a
councilmember to help give them some direction. But I think more important, I think Park and Rec ought to
take this and give it back to Hennepin County. I think Mark hit it right on the head. Why put it, this little tiny
section with Chanhassen. This little tiny section of Eden Prairie. Make up your mind what you want to do with
that trail. They did it in Shorewood. It's snowmobiles and multiple uses and we live with it and it has not been
a problem. There aren't a lot of complaints. There haven't been any accidents. We can go on and on with
these if's but the reality is, that trail has been fairly compatible for everybody. I use it all the lime. Take it
back to Hennepin County see what they want to do and tell them to make a decision and decide how they want
to use this trail. That will make it easier for us. If they shoot that down, then I think it's back to us to make
the decision. I also want to know from Scott Hart what our present ordinances are. Snowmobiles aren't banned.
I mean they can fide on the streets or they can't. Certain hours they can't. They can ride in the right-of-ways
on the highways so it doesn't matter if you own 400 feet on Pioneer Trail or not, if they stay on the fight-of-
way, it's got nothing to do with the homeowner as far as his property goes. I guess I note these little fine points
on those issues. Where is the State hw and where are our ordinances at? And if that can go to Park and Rec, it
can all be done there. If it does get back dumped on us, we'll make a decision.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is that a motion?
Councilman Wing: I would move to table this and get it back to Park and Rec. Clean it up and then if they
can't make a decision or if there isn't some compromise, I'll be happy to do it.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
27
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilwoman Dockendoff: Just that I'd like to see more information. I found my little tidbit on cross country
ski trails in the city.
Councilman Wing: On what?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Cross country ski trails. I mean you can go out and do it wherever but are there
any designated trails. I'd like to know the condition on that as well.
Councilman Senn: Dick, I'm a little confused with the motion. Are you suggesting go back to Park and Rec
and Park and Rec act on it and send it back to us or.
Councilman Wing: Well I'd like Park and Rec to tackle the issues. Number one, I think the fa'st thing ought to
be to send it back to Hennepin County and ask them to make a decision. That's my first direction. Secondly, in
lieu of that not occurring, meet with these groups. Fine tune the ordinances that exist. Get that information to
us and then if they want to come up with a decision with the full group, send it back to us. I think we're going
to have the same problems. It's going to come back with the same issues. The same two sides. We'll simply
have to take a stand on it at that point. I guess I'd be more comfortable doing it at that part. But I agree with
you, Hennepin tin'st, That's the direction to Park and Rec. Then see if they come up with a compromise here
that might be compatible in terms of hours or whatever, ff it gets back to us, it will be another night like
tonight. We'll just simply have to make a decision. Does that clarify it Mark?
Mayor Chmiel: There's also another factor by the snowmobile club indicating securement of easements and...
have not gotten those easements, that would be something too that I would strongly look at because that would
just negate any of that trail going ff you can't acquke those.
Councilman Wing: It's not this club that's the issue. It's the renegades that are the problem and they're going
to be there regardless.
Mayor Chmiel: No, that's right. Oh no, and I realize that. The club has done excellent. They have gone
through the process of teaching other people how to drive snowmobiles and going through the safety aspects so I
know that the club has done an excellent job from that standpoint. So with that I would.
Councilman Mason: One discussion or question, whatever, With this going back to Park and Rec and if they
were to make the motion that it go back to Hennepin County, I would hope that City Council would endorse that
action and there would be some kind of formal statement, -
Councilman Senn: Yeah, because I assume that it has to come back to us basically...doesn't it?
Councilman Mason: Yeah, because I would, yeah. I concur.
Mayor Chmiel: But it falls in their realm of responsibility and that's where it should be done. So with that we
have a motion on the floor to table with the following comments that have been given.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table the request of the Southwest Metro Trail
Association to utilize the Southwest Regional Light Rail Transit route ns a snowmobile trail. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
28
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
INTERIM USE PERMIT TO ALLOW SCREENED OUTDOOR STORAGE IN THE BF, BUSINESS
FRINGE DISTRICT, LOCATED AT 10500 GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD, ADMIRAL WASTE
MANAGEMENT.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: This site is located north of Highway 212 and south of the Hennepin County Regional
Railroad Authority Ixail. Highway 101 and is in...off of Highway 101. The applicant is requesting an interim
use permit to store commercial dumpsters on property zoned fringe business. There aren't any structures
proposed on this site with the exception of the fence. The fence is proposed to be 100 feet in length. 6 to 8 feet
in height and would screen the dumpsters from views from the highway. The applicant is also proposing to
plant 42 spruce trees at a foot and a haft in height. The fence is proposed to be of a dog ear treated panel
design. Staff is recommending approval of this application with conditions outlined in the staff report.
However, if you...some minor corrections. As far as the height of the fence, currently the condition reads,
condition number 1. Reads this fence shall be 8 feet in height. It should read, the fence shall be 6 feet in
height, not to exceed 8 feet. Another issue that we would just like to bring to your attention. Staff is requesting
that work on Sundays and holidays not be permitted. Now this is not required by ordinance. We put that
condition in there out of consideration to the neighbors in the area. If the City Council wishes to add any
conditions for this application, we need to find out that there should be a balance between the conditions of
approval and the length of the term that you put on this application. You should allow the applicant to meet
those...of the site. Again, staff is recommending approval of this application with conditions outlined in the staff
report. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Sharmin. Is the applicant here this evening?
Bill Griffith: Mr. Mayor, Council members. My name is Bill Griffith, 1500 Norwest Financial Center,
Bloomington representing the applicant. The permit requested is essentially a permit to build a 150 foot fence to
screen existing construction containers on the site. It would seem a simple matter but I do believe that it needs
to be put into context so if you'll indulge me for a few minutes. This will not take as long as the snowmobile
discussion. Although I was happy to see that the trail did overlook our site, as it looks at the juncture of
Highway I01 and 212 and as it overlooks the top of the site and down to the bottom, ! saw no dumpsters visible
from that location. So the issue is really screening the constxuction containers from the roadway. And ff you
drive by the site at this time, you'll notice that there's quite a bit of foliage on the site. It's fairly dense and the
topography lends itself to screening from the north and from the other directions. What we are proposing would
screen the dumpsters more than sufficiently during the winter months when foliage is not as dense. The reason
for this application is related to another matter on your agenda this evening, and that is the amendment to the BF
district uses. To add permitted uses and make additional conditional uses. I don't think there is any coincidence
that these matters are on the same agenda. The applicant has-very limited uses today. You're probably aware
that there are 4 conditional uses and I think 3 interim uses of the property in the BF district. In 1988 the
applicant did have a conditional use permit for a contractors yard and had planned to locate a facility for storing
these types of dumpsters both inside and outside the building and putting...center. They looked at the site and I
think because the recycling was just taking off at that time and as they...looked at their recycling market, the
year lapsed and they came back to the Council for an extension and was denied. So they were not able to go
forward with that contractors use. However, they did have permission from the city to store dumpsters, I think
albeit 6 at the time. They continued to use the property in that manner from that time until this for the last 6 or
so or 7 or so years. And up until last year in December, I think it was late November that Sharmin visited the
site, there were no complaints with regard to this property. Of which we are aware anyway. The point is that
there are very limited uses of this property and for those 6 or 7 years, they've been able to store these containers
without problem. We provided an opinion letter to the City Attorney's office that we believe that what they
29
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
were doing is legal based upon both the conditional use permits and the lack of reasonable use under the zoning
ordinance. The City Attorney did not necessarily agree with us, although I entered into discussion...what we
didn't want and that... So over the last several months, since probably February we've met with staff on 3 or 4
occasions. Supplied information regarding what we proposed to do, or the applicant proposed to do with the
property in terms of screening the use. In addition we met out on site and I thank the staff for doing that It
was a very hot and humid day and I, myself was a little late. Caught in traffic and we toured the entire site and
therefore the balance of the site that would be used for this use. And I think really kind of hammered out an
understanding of what would work and what wouldn't work, Really essential to that understanding is the
concept that the applicant is required to screen the containers and if a container shows or is visible, then it's not
screened and it cannot be allowed on the property, There was quite a bit of discussion at the Planning
Commission level about this application. In fact there were 3 hearings at which this application was heard and I
think that centered on two things. Mainly the fact that what you see there are hand drawn plans. They are to
scale and they are drawn by the applicant. In Chanhassen you've got a lot of commercial development. You're
used to seeing professional landscape plans. This however is an interim use for dumpsters. Essentially to build
a fence and it was not cost effective for the applicant to hire a lot of consultants. I'm I think the only consultant
on this team. To get this application completed. However she did, both Pat and Nancy provided a lot of
information and a great amount of detail we believe to the satisfaction of staff. After this long process. So with
that the staff informed us that we met the standards for the city code submission package. However, I think the
Planning Commission was somewhat uncomfortable again with the type of materials, given what they're used to
seeing with all the recent commercial and residential development in town. I think the other thing is the, there
was a request to limit the dumpsters to the 58 on site and we have made a request that the dumpsters be given a
cap of 140. All this 140 would have to be adequately screened so if 58 dumpsters are adequately screened
behind the wall, then that's what will be allowed. If 59 or 60, 61. Whatever is adequately screened should be
the number because that is the objective of the city. Not to arbitrarily pass a number at something less than 140
or 58. So we requested, although at the Planning Commission level we said we could accept 58, that was
essentially because we wanted to move this forward. We would like you to reconsider the staff recommendation
of 140 as a cap and if 130 fits or 120 fits, that's the number of dumpsters which will be on 'the site because that
is the limit that is placed on this permit. I think a couple other comments on the staff conditions. The height of
the trees at 1 1/2 feet. The applicant is essentially building a 150 foot wall. Board on board wall to screen the
use. That would be built in what is fairly dense ground cover. In addition, to break up the look of the fence,
they purchased 42 spruce trees at 1 1/2 feet high. They were able to get a good price on these spruce trees but
they are 1 1/2 feet high. They will grow rapidly. They will be 6 feet in a year or two. Or probably a couple
years actually.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: Can I get some of those?
Councilman Mason: Yeah, what kind of...
Bill Griffith: ... they are rapidly growing. It won't be more than a year or two... My point is that they axe there
not to screen the containers. They are there to break up the look of the fence, And I want you to keep that in
mind when you think about that because already this applicant has gone through a very long process to get to
this point and they now have the 42 trees and staff is recommending that they go out and buy some more trees
and at some point this becomes really not very cost effective. Finally, we have asked and we have understood
from the start that, well actually from the point that we were on site we discussed the concept that we did not
want this to be limited to or referenced to the MUSA extension because as you well know, as Council members,
it's anybody's guess when that might occur and if and when the MUSA is extended to cover this property,
obviously the property will go up in the value and there will be significantly expanded uses of the property. But
30
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
that takes some time and the day from the time that happens to the day the property is ready to marketed and
your zoning ordinances change, it may be several years. So if you fie this to when the MUSA is extended, leave
a gap because if the permit goes away but we aren't ready, or the city may not be ready to mm the use over to
something new. So we would ask that it be a straight 10 year term. And we talked with City Attorney Elliott
Knetsch and he believes that's reasonable. Now, the condition continues to read with the MUSA extension so
we would ask you to delete that and that was generally our understanding when we met with staff on site. I
guess those are my comments. Again, I'd like you to please remember the context of this application. I think
this is a solution that your city staff have worked very hard to come to and the applicant has worked hard to
avoid confrontation and to get on with some reasonable use of the property after these several years of being
fairly restricted. So we would ask you to consider that as you look at this matter. And then we would ask you
to approve it tonight because it has been a long process and we need to get out there and plant frees of 1 1/2 feet
and build a fence and hopefully what you saw on the tape this evening, no dumpsters, hopefully that's what
you'll continue to see on the property here in the winter months. I thank you very much for your time and stand
for questions.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. I just had a quick question as you're looking at 140 dumpsters. How many
dumpsters do you presently own now?
Nancy Lee: I don't have an exact figure. I believe 140.
Mayor Chmiel: And where do you store those existing dumpsters presently?
Nancy Lee's comments were not picked up by the microphone.
Mayor Chmiel: Does Council have any questions in regard to this? Well let me ask, is there anyone wishing to
address this at this time as well?
Gary Anderson: My name is Gary Anderson. I live at 725 Creekwood in Chanhassen here. I guess I've never
heard about the fact that there'd be a garbage, expanded garbage area in the back of my yard and I was
wondering when this was brought up and how close this is being to passed. I've never heard about it and I
don't know if all the other neighbors here have heard about it either. I know there have been a few dumpsters in
the area but I don't know.
Mayor Chmiel: Sharmin, would you like to address that?
Sharmin AI-Jaff: Sure. We've notified people within 500 feet of the site. Those are empty containers that will
be stored out there...
Gary Anderson: And how did this, the Park Commission, have tltey been involved with this? As far as would
they be involved with this?
Mayor Chmiel: No.
Gary Anderson: Should they be involved with this?
Mayor Chmiel: NO.
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Gary Anderson: Wouldn't that be considered part of.,.
Mayor Chmiel: Well basically this goes through the Planning Commission rather than the Park Commission and
it has gone through that particular commission.
Gary Anderson: Okay, How many years has that been?
Mayor Chmiel: How long has this been going?
Councilman Senn: 1986 wasn't it.'?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah.
Councilman Senn: I thought that's what I read.
Mayor Chmiel: '88.
Councilman Senn: I thought it was in '86 the original approval for them to build a building on the site.
Sharmiu A1-Jaff: Correct. However, they let it expire.
Councilman Senn: But I'm just saying, if they would have built their buildin} in '86, this would be a non-issue
and wouldn't even be here, correct?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. It's immaterial. '86. '88. Close. Yes.
Boyd Peterson: Yeah, Boyd Peterson and my question was, did these 140 dumpsters, are they all owned by
Admiral saying Admiral on them or are 30 of them Admirals, 50 of them that. Axe we creating a business of
storing them or are they all indeed Admiral dumpsters?
Bill Grdfith: To answer a couple questions. First of all I would like to confirm that these containers are
typically used in construction settings. They don't haul garbage or refuse. They haul demolition materials so
they do not create odors and smells and they are empty. Second, to answer the question. All of them belong to
Admiral. These are the dumpsters that would have been stored on site with the contractors yard. These are the
dumpsters that have been stored on site. Since that time they've numbered about 58. And they're all owned by
Admiral. They're not leasing space to other people or businesses. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Yes sir.
Verne Severson: Verne Severson at 675 Lakota Lane. We own the property just north of the site and this has
been going on for quite a while and I'm one of those property owners that has been kept informed and I thank
the city for that. And like I say, it's been going on for a few years and we've been struggling over this. I'm a
small businessman and I like to support small business and it does seem like a good use for this piece of
property. But the word dumpster and the word garbage, as a property owner I have a lot of trouble with that
and I think the city should have some concern with that too. This is the south end of Chanhassen. It is part of
the main entrance to the south part of Chanhassen. And some of us in that area feel we've been neglected by
the city. It's often called ugly town and I think that's wrong and we resent some of that. And again back to the
32
City Council Me~ting - August 22, 1994
word garbage and you have dumpsters around and it's just ugly. There's no way around it. I guess that's my
main concern. Maybe there needs to be a better selling job on this or maybe the city should do a little more
work because I think, I think like I said, it could be possibly a good use for the property but all the language
we've heard so far and what the lawyer was talking about, he said the dumpsters are empty. The dumpsters are
used for this but I don't hear anything about the future. What's to say that after one year they start storing
dumpsters full of material in there. Or what's to say they don't start cleaning the dumpsters on the property and
there's toxic waste and it runs into the soil or whatever. I don't see that in the language of the staff report and I
haven't heard anything about that mentioned so I think more emphasize needs to be placed on enforcement and
maybe inspection of the site. And I understand it's a 10 year permit...and that seems awfully long to me. I
believe there should be some way we can review that every year. I understand the investment they've put into it
and I want to make sure they get their money back from that. Personally I think a lot of the camouflaging is not
really money well spent on the fence if you think about it. You know the foot and a half trees and the wood
fence, that's almost ugly by some nature. I guess I'd maybe rather see a smaller time period unless there's a
trade off that we could work something out. I think that's about all of the comments that I have. I would like
to see more emphasize placed on enforcement and the future use of the property and I've been to the Planning
Commission several times. Well, it seems like several times. I've always commented to them how I feel the
south part of Chanhassen is being ignored and like I said to Mr. Mayor and Councilmembers, pay a little more
attention to the southern part of the city. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Verne. Anyone else?
Jim Sulerud: Jim Sulerud again, 730 Vogelsburg Trail. This is the item that I did come for...hike and jog and
bike along there plus we just live up the road a little bit on TH 101. And I think the trail as you've heard the
snowmobile people talk about, it's a major resource in the community.
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion. The Interim Use Permit for Admiral Waste
Management was tabled by the City Council.)
PRELIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 46.5 ACRES INTO 36 RURAL SINGLE FAMILY LOTS AND
ONE OUTLET, HALLA'S GREAT PLAINS GOLF ESTATES, LOCATED SOUTH OF PIONEER
TRAIL AND WEST AND EAST OF I-HGHWAY 101, DON HALLA.
(Taping of the meeting began again at this point.)
Mayor Chmiel: Are there any questions? Richard. ·
Councilman Wing: Did you write all those down?
nays. Of their request versus these recommendations.
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Sharmin and Dave have met with them and were aware of the issues that they had.
Councilman Wing: Is there anything to be said? I mean are we going to move ahead and try to put this thing
together?
Kate Aanenson: The storm water issue obviously...the lot size and we may have to look at that., outside the
MUSA...
I mean ! sort of got lost in the pros and cons and yeahs and
33
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Roger Anderson: That's correct...to make some adjustment for that but we have to make sure that we have some
mechanism in place that if the property or the entire area was, if it ever becomes in the MUSA in this future
subdivision, that we have some mechanism to recover the additional storm water...picked up at this time.
Councilman Wing: The Planning Commission picked up on this future road on the southeast comer and looking
at the gradient, it appears to me the road would run into or right along the bluff. How can that road be there
and still be compatible with the bluff ordinance?
Sharmin A1-Jaff: We met with the applicant. We requested that it be realigned.
Councilman Wing: Further west?
Sharmin A1-Jaff: Correct.
Councilman Wing: So this wouldn't be acceptable as it's showing here?
Sharmin A1-Jaff: No.
Councilman Wing: Okay.
Sharmin A1-Jaff: It would move slightly.
Don Halla: Sharmin, you might move it all the way over to the next property to the left. Next one.
Councilman Wing: Now we're surrounding Timberwood with an entire different type of house and lot. An
entire different thinking and our standard subdivision. If we guide this thing to 1 to 2.5, how do we keep it
there? What if the MUSA line shifted tomorrow? If Paul was here, it'd be down to the river already.
Kate Aanenson: Well we have options when we bring that in. We look at the MUSA line expansion, just like
Timberwood and they have to be...and said this will always remain large lot.
Councilman Wing: Says who? What keeps them, once the MUSA line, why can't they just go and develop this,
break it up immediately?
Kate Aanenson: Well ! think as we go through that process and you as a Council have to decide whether or not
what you want to guide it for.
Councilman Wing: At that time.
Kate Aanenson: At that time, right. If you want to exclude them and say they'll be exempt fi.om sewer and
they can make it not just for Timberwood.
Councilman Wing: But if we're going to develop this large lot now, it'd be nice to protect it for the future. I
mean we're approving this based on large lot, large home, or whatever.
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Kate Aanenson: That is why it's gone through several different, the Halla's have made a good faith effort based
on the fact that we've looked at 15,000 square foot lot and they tried to come forward with a plat clustering that
and we found out that even on a temporary basis they'd have to provide on-site septic. It just didn't work so
they came back with even trying to do cluster systems. So they have tried to cluster that in case we did bring it
in and said we want this to be small lots. It just didn't seem to work. So we went back to...go back to larger
lots. That doesn't mean that they still couldn't in the future, if they locate the house in such a way, they could
come back and ask to be included. You have to work with the homeowners now...subdivide. That's something
you have to look at.
Councilman Wing: Alright.
Mayor Chmiel: Before we get any more comments from Council, is there anyone wanting to address this
proposal at this time? Go ahead. If you could just, I'd request, because of the time, that the presentation be
limited to a few minutes.
Paul Graffunder. Well I'll do my best but I'm majofly affected by this development so a few minutes might not
be enough. But maybe it is. That's my parcel of property that Sharmin drawing in. I keep seeing TH 101 go
right through my garage. I don't know where that comes from but nobody's asked me about it but it keeps
getting dotted lines through my garage and I'm not sure, something like that. How that's going to affect me in
the future. I'm also concerned that if my road and house appear to have an easement of some sort over that
road. Not a total easement for unlimited use but some sort. Are they going to be able to give an easement then
to all those other lots so those people can bring their lumber wagons down that road and park all their wood
piles and whatever they want there? And I also have a problem, I think, with the way the roads are set up. That
way, all those 2 1/2 acre mini estates, their back yards become my front yard. Or my front yard becomes their
back yards and everybody knows the dog kennels go back there. The old boats and all that junk, which I have
myself but I store them where nobody can see it. Well, that's going to be in my front door when they put that
in their back yard. Is that a consideration that is given to something like that? I happen to have another
question as, I don't think this is platted now and I don't know how this all works but Halla's has kind of hidden
behind the agricultural zoning for decades. They've done things the city hasn't felt were correct and then the
Halla's have said, well we can do that because we're agricultural. The latest thing I can think of is they have a
building there that they're using for commercial retail sales that I don't believe they got proper permits for and
they said, well we can build that because we're an agricultural. Is this going to change their agricultural zoning
for every lot on there as soon as this is said and done or are they going to still be able to hide under the
agricultural umbrella and keep dump trucks that haven't moved for a year down along that road. That type of
thing. They say they're agricultural trucks and yes, I guess they are but they don't use them. Who can they
give an easement? Did I ask that? Are they going to give those lots an easement? All those people to use my
property. I don't know if they can. In the deed it says that...I'd like some protection against that. At this time
there's my home and David Halla's home but Sharmin, maybe you can outline the area where two other homes
were built this summer I believe. Yeah, right down in there. Do you know that? I thought one was in front
and one was behind. I think the way I'm recalling. This easement comes down along this road and comes
down in here and one home is to be built in the front and one home in the back.
Sharmin AI-Jaff: Something like that.
Paul Grafftmder. Yes. These two lots here are going to be built. This one here is...told me that it's
unbuildable. I don't know if it is or not, or how many people can have an easement on that easement. How
many homes can be served. We've had problems there for 15 years. Who's going to plow? Who's going to
35
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
put rock in there? Who's going to fill the holes? Who can do what with it? Who can park on it? Who can
drive their snowmobile on there,.,or whatever. I'd kind of like the easement to go away. Don Halla, about 5 or
6 years ago, maybe it was in '86, submitted proposals to use that easement for a road plus take 30 feet into my
property,.,60 feet of my front yard. Bring the road within about 30 feet of my door for this development and I
adamantly oppose that plan. He had an agreement that he had with Teich, or his parents...back in the 60's when
Teich's were separating their property and built my home that said something to the effect where property
needed for road would come from the Teich's side of the fence. And that was fine for Teich's and would have
been f'me for me had I wanted to develop but Don Halla wants to develop. I think in the, I don't know of
anywhere else where those lots can be served other than down the easement that we have now. There's just no
possible way to get in on the back side. I don't know if those stub streets are adequate. Those are news to me.
I haven't seen any of that. Those stub streets are not going to solve the problem that the other lot holders today.
The easement isn't a problem but everybody keeps adding one more onto it and sooner or later there's going to
be way more problems than what we've already experienced, So those are all the questions that I really would
like to be answered before anything is,..
Councilman Wing: Where does your home sit? On that, would you put that back up.
Paul Graffunder: I own 5 acres here. This is two separate parcels but my house is right about there under my
finger and then I have a rather large garage to the west of that.
Councilman Wing: It looks like your garage is safe.
Councilman Senn: Your house isn't safe then.
Paul Graffunder: What do you mean? For TH 1017
Councilman Senn: Yeah.
Paul Graffunder. Well, they're going to, they go right through my swimming pool. Somewhere in there. We've
got to move when that happens.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Anyone else?
Boyd Peterson: Yeah, I'm Boyd Peterson. I live directly to the east of this property, And going back on the
septic, I think Council and the city generally should hold to that septic system requirement. I personally have
had mine pumped many times and we're having trouble with it and I'm right next door. The 70 boring sites that
were taken in '87 or whatever, are they available to look at? Were they okayed? I mean is there that many in
that area? And the trees, they're kind of down around that southeast zone, There's kind of an issue to protect,.,
but other than that I mean, it's not a bad project. It's just that my issue is that septic and I think the city should
hold to it, Mound systems are real ugly, I don't know what you can do landscape wise to make a mound
system work, just to get that second system but I would say let's just not let this thing go by with that septic
because it may be a long time before the city. And they're with big houses and everybody's life now days, a lot
of water runs through those septics, Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else?
36
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
David Gatto: Hello again Mayor, Council and staff. Again, my name is David Gatto. I'm here to represent the
37 homeowners of the Lake Riley Woods Homeowners Association. We, for everybody's information, this is
Lake Riley Woods. It's well...Foxford Road. That cul-de-sac and there's a cul-de-sac here. That's Lake Riley
Woods. I have a petition from 28 of the people that live there and it says, we respectfully petition that Halla
Nursery should not be allowed to redevelop their property into anything smaller than 2 1/2 acres and that the
minimum square footage requirement of lA00 square feet be established in order to preserve the value of the
properties surrounding Halla and maintain the aesthetic appearance of the neighborhood at the level adhered to
when our homes were built. So we'll leave that with you Mr. Mayor. We don't oppose the development that
they have but like we signed up there, we really think that the lots ought to be at least 2 1/2 acres. Some of the
lots on that plat are small and I believe there's a 1.8 acres and that's what u'oubles us. The City Attorney there,
or at least one of the city attorneys...When I was at the Planning Commission meeting a couple of weeks ago we
were told that this grandfather extension had since expired. Can you answer that for me?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes Tom, go ahead.
Tom Scott: Has since expired?
David Gatto: That's what I was told.
Tom Scott: No. That's not my understanding.
David Gatto: It has not expired?
Tom Scott: It has not expired.
David Gatto: Because in looking at the ordinance as it applies today, there isn't of course any 2 1/2 acre
density. It's all 10 acre density.
Tom Scott: That's correct.
David Gatto: Okay. Well, if I add up the dates that Sharmin just went over, I don't understand how 5 years
from 1987 equals August of 1984.
Kate Aanenson: We can answer that. He had a plat. Came in here and was working on it and it was put before
the Planning Commission or the City Council, we believe we're making a good faith effort to fry to provide him
with the requirements and direction he was given by the staff and so we are trying to get this through the
process. Give him an opportunity to go forward. We were giving him the direction to try to give an alternative
so in our opinion he hasn't expired...
David Gatto: Okay. Well that's different than what you told me 2 weeks ago but okay. That's fine. We've got
a couple other things to talk about then. In the staff report they l_~lk about the outlots create a non-conforming
situation. And so I don't understand how they can't allow, especially the one outlot that has the retail
establishment there. How can you calculate that ouflot in the entire density of this plat and tell me that it does
indeed meet the overall density Of 2.6 acres? I need that question answered and I also would like to see the
mathematical calculations because when I divide 102, ff we assume the 102 is right, by 36, Sharmin what was
that number? You've got a calculator there.
37
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Sharrnin AI-Jaff: 2.8 units.
David Gatto: That's 2.8 acres. Does that include that Outlot D which we established at the Planning
Commission?
Sharmin A1-Jaff: Right.
David Gatto: Okay. So you established at the Planning Commission that he doesn't even own Outlot D so can
we take that away?
Sharmin A1-Jaff: Correct. So it was 92.
David Gatto: ts that what it is? I don't know.
Sharmin AI-Jaff: Correct. That would be, if you divide it by 36 units that would be 2.5.
David Gatto: 2.5...? Okay. And that's assuming that you allow the retail establishment outlot to be calculated.
Audience: That's what they're saying.
David Gatto: Well yeah. You know I don't understand that so I hope that Council takes that into account
here...as I carry on my discussion. I'm trying to finish. This trunk sewer is [xtremely troublesome to us. In
our development. We heard some encouraging words a minute ago that you might grant this plat a sewer
exemption. We only hope if something like that is possible, that we could be granted the same thing across the
street. We all have septic systems. We all have wells. You have to have a water treatment system on the wells
but I know that all the neighbors say it works very well, Mine works very well. My mound is so efficient I
have to water the top of it every couple days or the grass dies. It's, as I'm saying, so efficient that everything
drains down. Not only through the mound but into the earth it's built on that was supposedly not able to bear
the burden of the effluent but t have to water it every couple days. So it works fine. I paid $10,000.00 for my
mound and my well and I know everybody else in our development did, I know everybody else in this new
development is going to and are we...and I can assure you, if that you people let that happen here in Chanhassen
I'll be right here at your desk again. I'll bring all 37 of my neighbors with me and I'm sure that people from
Deerbrook will come along with us. That's the development that's directly to the east of this and I think some
of these other folks have septics too so take care of us. I'm not going to take any more time. I know it's
getting late and I think that was really our concern .... development but we're going to be watching very
carefully what you allow and what you don't allow and what you calculate for acreage is in there. Thank you
very much.
Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? If not, Richard do you have any other questions?
Councilman Wing: No. Just when, however this comes back, when you clean it up, 2,5. I mean when you
push your calculator it ought to say 2.5 and I think we should stick with that.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Colleen.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well I always struggle with preliminary plats. I try to keep in mind preliminary
means preliminary so I get too caught up in the detail. But overall I do have some problems, even with the
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
preliminary concept and that is I'm so lost in the mass at this point so let me just tell you what I would like and
you can tell me if it exists. I'm not really keyed on this overall density. I want to see 2.5 lots.
Kate Aanenson: Minimum lot size?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes. I don't want averages. I want to see 2.5 lots. I realiTe that there's a lot of
unfortunate history with this platting and the city needs to be held responsible for past actions but I'm frankly
disappointed that it can't be 10 acre lots. So I guess I don't have any, if we get to that point the 2.5 minimum
acres, I don't have a lot of problems. I mean everything else needs to be resolved and that has been discussed. I
would like Scott, I'm glad you're still here. In reading through all the Minutes and notes, there is a problem that
may fall under noise ordinance in terms of these facility. The speaker system, the peacocks. That's a
completely separate issue but I wanted to bring it up because it does seem to be a problem.
Scott Harr: We do have complaints on it.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: And what can we do?
Scott Ham We issue permits for the loud speakers. For the PA system and what not...housing in the area is
taken into consideration.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: So it is something that we have looked into?
Scott Ham And that we do control.
Mayor Chmiel: Anything more?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well, see I'm not so certain that we can give even preliminary. There seem to be
too many changes necessary so I guess I'm finished.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Michael.
Councilman Mason:
said and done here.
over that.
I'm okay with averaging. As long as it does in fact come out to 2.5 when everything is
You and I, I mean we'll have, we'll continue to have discussions, maybe even arguments
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Maybe even fist to cuff.
Councilman Mason: Oh, I don't think that will happen. I don't think that will happen. But I guess my view of
this is that, if it averages out to 2 1/2, I think the intent of the ordinance is still there. You know 10 acres or not
I think is, for me at any rate is kind of water over the dam and I only half jokingly wrote down the times they
are a changing but you know, what are you going to do. I'm concerned about the easement issue. That sounds
like a real valid point to me. I see that as this, what's going to happen with those homes? What is going to
happen with that road? And the go cacts and that whole issue has got to get cleared up somehow and I'm not
quite sure how to clear that up. But, and I know.
Kate Aanenson: ...that is not part of this plat. We don't intend to do anything nor with this plat do anything
with it. We wouldn't allow access onto it as part of this plat. The intention was, there's 4 existing lots or 5 that
39
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
have access onto that. It's a private drive. It will continue to act as a private drive for those homes and this plat
will have access off of a public street which is required by ordinance.
Councilman Senn: Which 4 or 5 because he'd have to have a variance.
Councilman Mason: But that's, I'm sorry. But that doesn't have, what you're telling me is that that doesn't
have anything to do with this plat.
Kate Aanenson: No. He's asking a legitimate question. He wants to make sure that those people don't have
access off of that as a part of the plat.
Councilman Mason: Right.
Kate Aanenson: And we'll make sure that doesn't happen. They want access off of a public street, which is an
ordinance requkement. Those who live along that will continue to use it as their private drive and maintain it
however they're doing.
Councilman Mason: Okay, okay. And how about that issue of, and I know we've talked about this before and
it is getting late and I quite honestly don't remember what. What does happen when all of a sudden somebody's
back yard is all of a sudden now facing somebody's front yard?
Councilman Wing: Ask Colleen.
Councilman Mason: I mean that's, yeah. I'd be concerned about that.
Councilman Senn: I have 4 back yards along my front yard.
Councilman Ivlason: Well, is all that stuff stored back in there?
Councilman Senn: Yeah and it's a pain in the butt. There's sheds. There's garbage piles and everything, yeah.
And the ordinances don't prohibit any of it.
Councilman Mason: So when final plat comes up or whatever, can something be put in there about landscaping?
Screening. I mean I hate to use the word screening with the past discussion that got tabled but I mean we've
done that before with what, landscaping.
Kate Aanenson: We do that all the time with different Subdivisions..,lots which are less desirable and maybe
there's a way to do the landscaping...
Roger Anderson: Can I interject here?
Mayor Chmiel: Time's getting late. We're just trying to keep going here.
Councilman Mason: You know I don't know how all the neighbors feel about it but ff I can see something
about landscaping so the sight lines are protected because that is an issue but yet I don't think we can deny
people to develop just because of that but how can we reach some sort of compromise. I don't have any trouble
with going ahead with preliminary plat but I will go on record as saying there's a whole Iot of stuff that has to
4O
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
be taken care of before I would give final plat approval. I mean we've got to, I think maybe it is time to get
this off of square one but I share a whole lot of the concerns that have been mentioned.
Resident: Future Councils are going to have problems with that street if you don't take care of it today.
Councilman Mason: But, you know you're fight but I think that's a separate issue. I mean that's not connected
with this plat. I mean you're right. You're fight.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Mark go ahead.
Resident: But you've got the opportunity now. You're not going to have the opportunity years from now.
Mayor Chmiel: I could role you out of order because this is a discussion up here at Council. Thank you.
Councilman Senn: Right now what that easement serves nothing in the I-lslla development, correct?
Kate Aanenson: No. They're using it right now their...
Councilman Senn: I'm not saying using it. I'm just saying that that easement specifically.
Kate Aanenson: When this is developed?
Councilman Senn: Yes.
Kate Aanenson: No, it will not...
Councilman Senn: Okay, so that easement will, there's nothing to the north?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay. So that easement will only serve the properties then to the south of it?
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Senn: Which are the current properties that have an easement over it. They'd be land locked
otherwise, correct?
Kate Aanenson: That's correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay.
Kate Aanenson: To provide access to the...property. That's, we were talking about moving that road.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, I understand but besides from that, the land locked properties that are in there to the
west...need that easement to get in and out.
41
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Kate Aanenson: They have that easement and they will continue to have that easement. They're using it as a
private drive, correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay. And none of that is in the ownership of the Halla's or under..xight now?
Kate Aanenson: It's my understanding they have an easement.
Councilman Senn: They have an easement but they don't, I mean an easement is very different. Okay. So
even ff Halla got rid of that easement, all those other people would still maintain that easement and we have
absolutely nothing to do for it? Okay. Alright. The other thing I'll just ask you real quick. On the road over
here, the future road you're talking about.
Kate Aanenson: The realignment of TH 101.
Councilman Senn: No, not TH 101 but this future road.
Kate Aanenson: Oh, yes. If the nursery property was ever to be platted, we would block that, instead of having
direct access onto TH 101...
Councilman Senn: So they put the public systems in.
Kate Aanenson: They would just throw a stub sweet...
Councilman Senn: Okay. And then I saw the comment in here or I saw the Outlot A shall have no additional
access granted to TH 101. That's more or less additional over what's there now.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Senn: Alright. Last question. Item 35 really confuses me and I think you're missing the point.
What are we trying to do? Covenants be provided for the new property owners informing the days and hours of
the retail commercial site and if changes are made to those hours and days, the property owners be informed of
such change. You lose me there. I mean if we're informing them all we're going to do is start the fight, we
haven't provided an mechanism for the ability to fight. It seems like a bottomless pit where we're going
nowhere and why is it even in there.
Sharmin A1-Jaffi It was...by the Planning Commission to let new homeowners that will be buying into the
subdivision know that there is a nursery...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Kate Aanenson: We'll use the 2,5...
Councilman Mason: Well so that's the issue right?
Councilman Senn: And you said 2.5 minimum. You said 2.5 minimum and Richard, did you say 2,5 minimum?
I thought so. Well there, I guess it means we deny.
42
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: That's what we're looking at. Okay, do we need a motion to do that? Or should we give it
back to staff and let staff see if they can work with them.
Tom Scott: You can just continue it and I mean you've expressed your sentiments to staff, ff staff's comfortable
with that.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright. Does everybody understand? It's back in staff's lap to continue to work.
Don Halla: We're back to the conceptual drawing basically. That's what you're back to is the 1987.
Mayor Chmiel: ff it takes longer and another Council comes in, they might make another change.
Kate Aanenson: I guess the other issue too is we've kind of passed that time frame and we'd like to get, keep it
moving so that either a plat goes forward or it dies. You know we keep extending this, extending this so ff you
want to give him the 2.5, I'd recommend you make that in a motion and have them come back within such a
time period because otherwise we're back in the same window. Was there a time frame for them to come back?
Mayor Chmiel: But with all the uncertainties that are there yet, things that are still not answered, I think if staff
works back with that, knowing that the maximum is 2.5. Or I should say minimum is 2.5, I think you can work
that out to come back and bring it back again to Council for the £mal. Or for the preliminary portion of this.
Don Halla: Can you put those side by side?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I can't see a thing on this.
Councilman Mason: Well.
Sharrnin A1-Jaff: How about if you compare the easterly side or the westerly side.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I think the point is moot because the 2.5 doesn't necessarily mean it has to be that
configuration.
Kate Aanenson: Right, it could be something totally different.
Tom Scott: I believe what Kate is saying is that Council set some deadline as to when this plat would come
back so we don't put ourselves in a limbo type situation. Potentially it could be another year or two years
before the plat actually comes back in a reconfigured form. Maybe we could get some input from the applicant
as to timing on presenting everything in the plat. That might be helpful here.
Roger Anderson: The timing for a reconfigured plat may be secondary. I feel that through the process here Don
has rights, if I understand the rules correctly, to develop that piece into 37 lots. And making allowance I believe
that he has to meet the 2 1/2 acre minimum, which was in effect back at that time and that's what has driven
this thing forward is the number of lots actually. Not the 2 1/2 acre requirement. The 2 1/2 acres is to obtain a
certain neighborhood characteristic I believe and to meet the individual soil treatment site provisions, which we
fully intend to meet. But this doesn't fall under the current ordinances, the way we understand it and admiuedly
it's a complicated situation but if there is a requirement now that each of these lots be 2 1/2 acres, I think that
throws a whole different skew on it. It's not just a reconfiguration issue that our engineer can do. It's the legal
43
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
and the planning question I think that's going to take more than that. I don't see it as just a black and white
situation.
Kate Aanenson: How about if we table this for the next City Council meeting and we get a legal opinion and
resolve that issue and then also maybe come back with a time frame where we can resolve another plat...
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I don't see that as a problem. Can I have a motion to table?
Councilman Mason: So moved. I'll move to table.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, moved and seconded.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Wing seconded to table action on the preliminary plat for Halla's
Great Plains Golf Estates until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
Councilman Mason: I guess if I could just add. I think we also need to continue this discussion about why
every lot should be, what the rationale is and what the rationale isn't for averaging so it comes out to 2 1/2 acres
or maintaining every lot. I mean we average PUD's. We average a lot of th,ings and I'm, I don't personally
don't think tonight's the night to have that discussion but.
Mayor Chmiel: And I think we can continue that probably at the next meeting.
Councilman Mason: Okay.
Councilman Senn: Since we're bringing it back, I think it becomes an interesting question because it's one we
have to keep asking ourselves all the time and I think the neighbors should ask themselves the question. What's
more important to you. The configuration, design layout or this absolute number and that's something that we
have to deal with constantly up here. And just to say magically 2.5 can give you a nice, wonderful square lot
boxed neighborhood subdivision that in our eyes sometimes we've looked at and kind of gone yukk. Okay.
And so we try not to just simply etch in those numbers and say that's it. We look more at overall design
configuration and say, well if you give a little bit there, you get to something that looks nicer. So all it is is a
question and something to look at.
Councilman Wing: And don't forget the TH 101 issues of grading and sight line and what the responsibilities
are.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I'm going to suggest that we do 10 and 11 and cut it off after that.
Councilman Mason: No argument there.
Mayor Chmiel: And I'd like to get the approval of l(b) and l(j) with a quick explanation as to whatever it
might be.
Councilman Senn: The thing on 1.
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: Well no, we'll just come back to that but I'm just putting it in the proper sequence.
Councilman Mason: Do we need to make a motion to amend the agenda now or do we wait?
Councilman Senn: Well and that's what I was going to ask. I thought some of these people were kind of
sticking around here for l(b).
Mayor Chmiel: Is there somebody sticking around here for l(b)?
Councilman Senn: There were people that were here on the business fringe. Item l(b).
Mayor Chmiel: City Code amendment to BF district. Additional permitted and conditional use final reading.
We went through the process of this with the ftrst and now this is the final. With the recommendations as to
what
Councilman Senn: I'm just asking, should we move that up to take care of them?
Mayor Chmiel: Well, I think what we'll do is just continue with what we have. We'll go to item 10. That item
10 I don't think is much of a problem.
ANNEXATION/DEANNEXATION REQUEST, CITY OF CHASKA.
Councilman Senn: I move approval.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Resolution ~94-86: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the
annexation/deannexation request for the southwest corner of West 82nd Street and Highway 41 between
Chaska and Chanhassen. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
DISCUSS CONCEPT OF ENTERTAINMENT COMPLEX, REDEVELOPMENT OF THE
CHANHASSEN BOWL FACILITY, LOTUS REALTY.
Councilman Senn: The one I feel bad about is I'd love to spend some time on this and we aren't going to have
it tonight for number 11. So I'd really, if we're going to push something off, and I know that's not fair because
they've been siring around all night.
Mayor Chmiel: They've been here so let's bring in number 11. Brad Johnson, you're on deck.
Councilman Senn: Let's come up'with a time we can get together and do this. I mean right now to rush
through this.
Mayor Chmiel: You've only sat here half the night and waited.
Councilman Senn: Do you want to stay for a few more hours and go through it?
Mayor Chmiel: How long of a presentation will this take?
45
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Brad Johnson: We can do it in 15 minutes. It's just a preliminary, there's no decisions.
Councilman Wing: I'm willing to sit through it if we can get rid of l(b) and let those people go home.
Councilman Senn: Yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Let's do, let's go back and revise. Go back to the 1Co).
CITY CODE AMENDMENT TO THE BF, BUSINESS FRINGE DISTRICT BY ADDING ADDITIONAL
PERMITTED AND CONDITIONAL USES, FINAL READING.
Councilman Senn: So do we have tO move to amend the agenda?
Mayor Chmiel: I think we can try to get around without any problem.
Councilman Senn: Okay. I had asked 1Co) to be pulled for I guess the same specific reason I brought up at the
first reading. I go down under the permitted uses and I don't find a great deal of difficulty with permitted uses
but I get down under the conditional uses and continue to see cold storage and warehousing, which is a pure
industrial use, just thrown into this BF District and it doesn't really make sense with what else is being proposed
for use in that district. And having gone through I guess the earlier discussion tonight on this BF district, I'm
just really uncomfortable making this kind of change in the ordinance fight now without taking a little closer
look at what we're just going to throw into the BF because once we do this, and it happens, we can't change it.
I mean even if we change the ordinance a few months from now. Something comes in the meantime, we're
stuck with it. And maybe we need to look at what we want that area to be and I think most of these things that
are here kind of maybe teeter on that. Now all of a sudden we've got this industrial use thrown in there that
continues to bother me.
Mayor Chmiel: All we could do with that is completely eliminate it.
Councilman Senn: Well that's kind of what I asked in the fa'st reading but.
Mayor Chmiel: Well in the f~t reading you're not done with it until you get your final reading fight now.
Cold storage and warehousing I agree, is an industrial kind of use and that's where it really should fit in.
Councilman Wing: Why was it put in?
Mayor Chmiel: It's within our ordinance and.
Councilman Wing: Oh excuse me, these aren't additions? Okay.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I guess, if I may. As I said earlier in the evening, this 'is an area of town that I
think warrants additional study and we can always expand the use if and when we so choose so I don't have any
problem eliminating that understanding the current business there can continue to use.
Kate Aanenson: It's currently listed as cold storage and warehouse as a conditional use. That wouldn't be a
change.
46
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Wing: But if I have a problem with a change, it's trunk/~er/auto/sporling goods/beat sales/rental.
That means we could have used car lots down there.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Councilman Senn: Yes, that's what it means.
Councilman Wing: Well I don't like that at all.
Councilman Senn: Well we raised that last time Dick and.
Councilman Wing: Did you bring that one up?
Councilman Senn: Yes. I brought up all of these. I didn't like really a lot of any of them.
Mayor Chmiel: Actually there's never been a successful auto portion down there. It's all been closed so there
aren't any there now.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'd more to table item l(b) because I don't have a brain right now.
Councilman Wing: And I agree. I think we want to think this out starting now.
Mayor Chmiel: Let's bring it back to Council. A motion to table.
Councilman Senn: So moved.
Councilman Wing: Second. And not on the Consent Agenda. We want to.
Councilman Senn: It was on the consent agenda.
Councilman Wing: We want it moved off the consent agenda, right?
Councilman Senn: I already moved it off. Now we're just tabling it.
Kate Aanenson: Next time you want it off.
Councilman Senn: Oh, next time off. Yeah, and I'd really be interested in hearing the neighbors comments on
the subject.
Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to table action on the City Code
Amendment to the BF, Business Fringe District by Adding Additional Permitted and Conditional Uses,
Final Reading. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: We'll have it back on the agenda but as you can see, you've got the consensus of where we're
coming from with it. Brad, you're on.
CONTINUATION OF ENTERTAINMENT COMPLEX CONCEPT REVIEW.
47
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Brad Johnson: ..,back in 1984, The first time around was one of the fa-st Council meeting I ever went to here.
I sat here and wondered what was going on,
Councilman Mason: And you still do, right?
Brad Johnson: Yeah. This evening we'll go through this fairly quickly. Back in, basically we have a proposal
that we presented to the HRA which was the proper place to see what their interest was in completing the
redevelopment of the downtown area, We have assembled the various owners which down them is basically a
fellow by the name of Bloomberg that owns part of it, The city is involved indirectly with some parking lots
and stuff down there, And a fellow by the name of Dan Dahlin owns the bowling alley. He didn't want to own
the bowling alley but he currently owns the bowling alley, We've tried 3 or 4 different times to accomplish
something down there. Primarily on the public side. We had one referendum. A couple hms at referendums
you know trying to figure out what we could do down in that area, And so where we are at the present time is
we think that we have some private uses that might make the thing work. We'll probably need some assistance
by recreating a new district down there that does qualify as a redevelopment district, which means you can redo
the district, It's a real redevelopment under the classical type of thing under the I-IRA regulations. So this
evening Truman Howell, who's n architect working with us is back with us currently, Vernelle Clayton is
working on the project and also Russ Pauly is here. It gives us an opportunity to relocate Pauly's and actually
create a whole new restaurant type and maybe, I don't think Russ you've talked too much at these meetings so
you can kind of explain what he's trying to accomplish, We're just trying to set the stage. We understand the
process of the HRA is sort of run it up the flagpole in an informal discussion and,..planning point of view. We
do have some needs, The building will be changed here in the near future. We have a movie theater that would
like to move into the community but has other places to go. Those type of things so the urgency would be, we'd
like to accomplish all of this by next fall. But I don't know if we can accomplish it that fast but we'd like to try
to do that. So and that's why we're, Truman do you want to come up here. We've just got a little slide show
that we put together, I don't know if all of you can see it. Maybe they'll see it on the video. As long as I have
been here, many people have been talking about downtown Chanhassen and how they would like to see the
community look like Excelsior. I think what people are looking for...and a lot of times that has come up and I
guess what we tried to show you is some of downtown. People talk about downtown. People talk about being
pedestrian friendly and that type of thing so these are...St. James Hotel in Red Wing for example. One of the
things you should be aware of is that a lot of downtowns can end up looking like this. In other words, the
businesses move out of the downtowns and we're using...but that's what happens ff you don't keep your
downtown sort of viable and it's happening a little bit in Excelsior currently. The other thing people should
realize that the backs of these beautiful buildings in the front, when you double those, look like this, Is not
downtown Excelsior but it could just as well be, right.. Most of your old downtown parking has ended up in the
back of the buildings so this is what you see. Now we could say well we can fix that all up but obviously
Hopkins and no town has really figured out how to do it. Even places like, this happens to be Winnoa. And
this is the front of those buildings. But you can see the people have tried to maintain some architecture.
Reflected this as a town. We're going to go real quick through these slides. These are just images that we're
trying to show you. Most of these would be the river town type of look,..architecture is 1850-1860.
Truman Howell: The late 1800's.
Brad Johnson: And you can see, I think if you looked at Northfield or any of those towns like that, this is an
old. That looks kind of new doesn't it,..And see a lot of these buildings are empty. The second floors are
deserted but they still look kind of nice...But that would be what is a downtown and I think we ail, many of us
from a small town, we say we're kind of comfortable with that. Truman has gone through and picked up some
48
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
architectural types that we'd like to just show you that represent some of this period. Where is this do you
think?
Truman Howell: I don't know what the exact location is but there's some elements in here of balconies,
awnings on the side of the building with arches. There's some architectural elements that we f'md...in some of
the older towns and the buildings that may come up .... with different kinds of buildings. For example... They
cast a certain kind of image that is sort of a stable feeling compared to some of the things that seem more
contemporary. Here's another one with the large trees. This is a more contemporary rendition of an older
building. Here they've put some pediments over the windows. Here they're using awnings. Again, the building
looks, it looks like a stable piece of architecture. Then the more classical ones. Obviously this says bank
immediately or courthouse. Various detail which develop these kinds of feelings. Again, pediments over the
windows. Cornices. Awnings on the comer. Those kinds of elements are throughout the older buildings that
you fmd turn of the century... Here you're getting into some things that are a little more exotic and the
txaditions...
Brad Johnson: This is some of the architecture that we've classically been using in downtown Chanhassen. A
lot of gables...and this of course is Chanhassen .... sort of the area of the downtown that we're trying to focus
on. We're trying to remind you what it looks like. We haven't quite figured out the architecture. It's kind of
interesting. In all these 20 years, this is why things do change. We say we're going to set this in concrete
forever. But 30 years ago this was the premiere building in downtown Chanhassen with a brand new lumber
yard had just opened up and so you know, things go change. Just 10 years ago this was remodeled. I think it's
been .... what you do think Todd, a million bucks. Million and a half. These are some of the architecture
elements that you probably recognize in the downtown. Areas that probably are friendly and many of us
recognize them in the community. Where people have actually gone in and remodeled places. This is down...
Buildings that have been redone. A lot of these were done by themselves. This is down along...A lot of areas
around Riverside. Anybody have any questions? I guess we threw this in because it's kind of an outdoor dining
kind of thing and it's got the awnings and it's raised and probably has a good look. This has been very
successful. That's...old buildings. Looks nice...Street look. You know this is what the whole street ends up
looking with trees on it. One of the areas that we probably, there's two areas that we kind of focused on. One
we didn't take a lot of slides like this and that was Canal Park up in Duluth that probably has led to a liule bit
of our thought because that's an entertainment district and we have about I would guess 58,000 square feet of
bulk space we have to figure out what to do with and what they've done up in Canal Park is they've been able
to figure out what to do with it. I don't know, has anybody been down on Main Street at St. Anthony this
summer? That's become a fairly popular place, forgetting the rest of the whole area but that's kind of what, a
lot of the architecture, does that look familiar? And these are buildings that have been redone and areas that are
actually working. Movie theater. Different types of things that people have done to create traffic and if you go
down there...so this is what we have. And what we'd like and that is the idea that we try to create something
new out of that back area into something more like that and so Truman has come up with some ideas. All the
sort of investment in this so far has been made by the property owners. No city money has gone into the
concept and as I said, Truman can probably go through what we're trying to think. There's a lot of things we
have to think out in addition to what we had thought about. For example, a lot of parking lot over there. Not
enough trees. We have...and so you have to do something just long term to make it act~ja!ly work. But that I
Truman Howell: Part of the attraction of the downtown area is, what you've seen on the slides, has to do with
some variety. Some, not everything is the same. Not all the buildings are alike. There's uniqueness to them
and that was part of what we were trying to accommodate. The location that we're talking about, and you're all
49
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
familiar with it. This is 78th Street here. The hotel. The proposed restaurant. Frontier building and Dinner
Theatre here. We're talking about the back side where the bowling alley presently exists and what's called I
guess the city building. The elevation of the floor of this building in relation to the present parking area back
here is approximately 4 feet above the grade. So we've chosen to elevate a streetscape along the exterior of that
building as a beginning place. There would be a pedesnSan, attractive and friendly area for people to go to.
Access not only from the hack but also through the separation between the restaurant and the Frontier building.
In large scale, that's what you see here. We've included the undulating walls with vegetation with trees and
plants and all kinds of s~eetscape materials including railings, light fixtures, vamps for the handicap accessibility.
Over here we have a game table area where people can sit and play cards, checkers, what have you. Over here
near the restaurant is an outdoor seating area for meals. In this area we developed a theater which actually takes
up this portion over here would be a 6 theater complex with some small retail spaces here and the hack of this
building, the back of the Frontier building actually also retail space. On this end where Filly's is presently
located, the restaurant concept and then some retail space...theater with the restaurant and behind the bowling
area here. What we've done then in concept is to take a look at how we could, using the existing buildings as
they are presently, we've refaced them with a variety of building faces and types of various images and...that
would give some life and interest to that facade. These are concepts. They are not each one of these particular
designs exactly down to the nth degree but what we're trying to do is give you a feel for what could be an
attraction to the area to bring people to it. Our interest is to use real materials and...painted facades and this
kind of thing. We would like to use real brick. We want to use real wood and we want to use materials that are
compatible. We would obviously then structurally mount these to the existing panels. We would have a
structural engineer involved to make sure we weren't causing any problems with having too high of buildings
that would not be properly reinforced, etc. We've taken off a lot of the trees that you see here in an effort to
show you better what the facade could be. Basically that's what we're planning to do. What would occur in
relating the plans to the elevations. The restaurant would take up pretty much this area in here. The access to
the bowling alley would be here. The restaurant here in the comer. These actual four buildings here would
form the facades for the retail area. Moving on down, this new building here is actually an exist out of the
theater area. This building here behind it is actually one of the theaters. Then the theater complex itself...front.
And the drawing that you have on that mailer that was sent to you is what the theater would look like based on,
you're looking at a 45 degree angle. So that's basically what we're proposing and would like to get your
comments and input and feelings about it.
Brad Johnson: ...say too is that we do have to attend to the bowling alley obviously. We've got,...for the
movie theater with good credit. Each of these have good credit and then Russ, you maybe can comment on your
interest in moving over there.
Russ Pauly: Well the operation that we're looking into that facility is about a 9,000 square foot. It would be a
more Champs style. Sports bar and restaurant with more emphasize on food than what we currently have.
Brad Johnson: I guess that's where we are. We think we've got the tenant space that we need. We've got 2 or
3 retail people that we have to have. One of the questions we have f'mally worked out is that we did include in
that facade goes around and then the Frontier building is ultimately included in that facade and this can be
broken down into retail. We have some parking, we have enough adequate parking the way we're set up. If
you remember Fred Hoisington saying maybe you have too much parking in a lot of areas so we have to make
some studies because there may be enough green in the parking lot to accomplish all that and then there was
some interest in encouraging, you see what happens in these double...backs of the buildings towards the railroad
tracks but there may be some way again of figuring out how we can get some building or some stmctttre down
5O
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
near the raikoad. It's just that will take a lot of effort from the planning department and figure out how we can
accomplish all of that.
Truman Howell: Basically the parking which you see on this drawing does not have, except for on the ends any
of the green space and I realize that you...an ordinance at this point that would require to be considerably more
green space in that parking area. However at this point, based on this drawing, there is adequate parking for all
of these facilities that we're talking about.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Does that include the use that Southwest Metro currently has?
Truman Howell: Yes.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, if you go there now there's nobody parked there.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: So hours of operation.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. What they're trying to do is, we would have..~gfiday night but right now that whole area
does not have a lot of...there's a lot of empty parking spots. The other area is we do have more expansion space
of the hotel over here. We're going to sooner or later... That adds 38 rooms, right Vernelle?
Truman Howell: 36.
Brad Johnson: 36. You add another 20 or 30 and change the facade of the bowling alley, some day but that'd
be the next phase of the hotel. The hotel has been very successful. This we feel.
Truman Howell: It maintains the pedestrian access from the back with planned walkways coming to the back
and then around the area.
Brad Johnson: This I think the 2000, Vernelle went to all the 2002 meetings. Most of the people tell her this
should be an entertainment area. As I said short of tearing everything down and starting over, which is difficult
to do, this probably would work and we're trying to work within the building types that we currently have.
There's always been an interest in the movie theater down here. As I said, we've got a business in town that's
doing about, oh maybe a million and a half, two million dollars worth of business a year. It's kind of crazy to
kick them out of town and that's kind of what would happen on October 1st of next year. So you've got a
viable tenant that's already been in business here for how many years.
Russ Pauly: 60.
Brad Johnson: 60. Part of the reason is that Market Square has been successful is that we moved MGM in over
there successfully with you guys help. We moved Chan Lawn and Sports over there with your help. And we
moved Merlin in and that's made that a very stable type of shopping center. We didn't relocate or kick anybody
out of town. And everybody else had a chance to so that's kind of the grand plan. Our process would be to go
back to the I-IRA with your input and the planning input and start the process over. There we are Mr. Mayor. A
couple of you have seen this before so.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. So there will be two of us who won't have to comment. Richard.
51
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Wing: One of my big concerns when I see you walk in Brad is I constantly here from you market
driven and what the market will bear. I think this is a big deal. This is a big event for our city. This is my
number one priority when I got elected for this whole mess down there so I'm real excited and if you can put
this together, I think we've got to do whatever we can to get this thing moving and do it right. But the point
being, I want to start at the HRA. Get their support and funding so that you have the ability to put it together
and to do it right. But pan of that means that we hire once and for all, without any question, an architectural
professional architect to represent the city that attends every I-IRA meeting. Every Planning Commission
meeting and every Council meeting to ask the questions and help set the pace. And this is a team effort and
we're working together. It's not them against whoever. But I don't feel that anybody on the HRA is a designer
and I don't think they know what questions to ask and I don't think we do a good job at it so I want someone,
whether it's Jeff Farmakes or a professional architect, helping us get this thing done right and making sure it's
done right so that if you say well we think, he can say here's what's best 20 years down the road or help us set
this up. At any rate, let's get HRA to get on board. It has my full support. Let's get ourselves an advisor so
that we're well informed and then move full steam ahead. The only other quick comment with whatever bar, I
don't want to hear the word bar. Whatever restaurant goes in is a restaurant with a liquor license, ff it's a
Champs, it's food fkst and liquor second. I don't want to put in another bar in there. I want a restaurant with
liquor. A winning combination but ! think that as we've looked at giving liquor licenses, they're for restaurants.
Not for bars. We're no longer giving permits to bars so I just want to differentiate the wording so we're
providing liquor license to a restaurant, not a bar.
Mayor Chmiel: Colleen.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well I certainly like this a lot better than a community center. A lot better. I
whole heartedly concur with Richard however about getting a designer to counteract. Not counteract but to
balance your proposals because I'm not a professional. This could either look absolutely wonderful. It could
look terribly garish and I want to make sure it's done right. It's a huge, it's what people will identify
Chanhassen.
Truman Howell: Would anyone have any problem with us working together?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Absolutely not.
Councilman Wing: That's the point.
Truman Howell: What I've been hearing is sort of an adversarial thing that they're here at the meetings so they
can defend and I think it would be a lot easier if that person and I were to work together on the concept~
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Absolutely.
Mayor Chmiel: Don't see any problem.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: And will you be providing the mountains in the background shown there.
Truman Howell: Oh, those are...clouds.
Councilman Mason: I thought, boy you know, if you could pull off mountains in the background.
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City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Wing: Forget the mountains. If they could just pull this off at all.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Mark.
Councilman Senn: Conceptually it looks great. Architecturally it looks like you're heading in a good direction.
I guess when it comes right down to it, I'll be more interested in just seeing what assistance level is required and
that sort of thing. There's a lot of issues with that property too in terms of back taxes of the bowling alley and
all that stuff but...
Brad Johnson: I think the good news here is Mr. Dahlin who owns it can see his way through this project.
He's...cooperating. So we'd like to go back to the HRA. We'll probably try to get there about in September
and have some type of financial proposal on paper. And then work our way back upstream...
Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. Item l(j). I want to touch that one real quick.
RECEIVE ASSESSMENT ROLLS, SET ASSESSMENT HEARING DATE FOR SEPTEMBER 12, 1994.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: I'd move approval. I didn't see the stuff that we had on the desk when I pulled it.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright.
Councilman Wing: What just happened?
Councilman Senn: And we're not approving anything. We're really just accepting it.
Mayor Chmiel: That's right. Is there a second?
Councilman Wing: Second.
Resolution g94-82: Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to receive the
assessment rolls and set the assessment hearing date of September 12, 1994 for the West 78th Street and
Downtown Public Improvement Project 92-3 and the JohnsonlDolejsi Utilities Improvement Project 92-5.
Ali voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
AMENDMENT TO THE ZONING ORDINANCE, CITY CODE SECTION 20.1181(B)(4) REGARDING
INTERIOR LANDSCAPING FOR VEHICLE USE AREAS, FIRST READING.
Councilman Wing: Mr. Mayor, item number 12, when we approved this I said I didn't think anybody knew
what they were approving and what was missing, which Byerly's picked up on, was that this was, that it
addressed interior, some interior landscaping. All they did was add, take the existing ordinance and add this..
and I would move approval of item 12 and clear this off the agenda.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah and that basically is really what it comes down to.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: I'll second it.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded.
53
City Council Meeting - August 22, 1994
Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the first reading of an
amendment to the Zoning Ordinance, City Code Section 20-1181(b)(4) regarding interior landscaping for
vehicle use areas. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Senn seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the
motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 1:00 a.m.
Submitted by Don Ashworth, City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
54