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CC 1995 11 27CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING NOVEMBER 27, 1995 Mayor Chmiei called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Berquist, Councilwoman Dockendorf, Councilman Mason and Councilman Senn STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Kate Aanenson, Charles Folch, Todd Gerhardt, Scott Harr, Sharmin Al-Jarl APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the agenda as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: None. CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: a. Resolution #95-123: Accept SanitaD; Sewer and Water Improvements in Highlands on Lake St. Joe, Project 93-31A. b. Consider Reassignment of Development Contract for Powers Place and Powers Place 2nd Addition. c. Approval of Bills. City Council Minutes dated November 13, 1995 Planning Commission Minutes dated November 1, 1995 Park & Recreation Commission Minutes dated October 24, 1995 Condemnation of 2.35 acres of Residential Land Described as Outlot F, Creekside Addition; City of Chanhassen vs. Heritage Development. Site Plan Amendment Request for a 9,400 sq. ft. Addition to an Office Warehouse Facility, 7600 Quattro Drive, Microvision Corporation. h. Resolution #95-124: Approve MnDot Program Fee Reimbursement. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: FUTURE PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION PLANNING, BILL BERNHJEL1V[ COMM~SIONER, (Taping of the meeting began at this point in the discussion.) Bill Bernhjelm: ...to our continuing amazement we do not and have not seen dramatic increases in calls for service that would be expected normally under most policing or public safety models based on population and service levels and so forth. One of the things that ;ve're interested in doing is going forward in doing some research and seeing why it is that the model that we are using now is so successful. Why it is that given our increase in population and the increases in our businesses in the city, why is it that the call for service has not City Council Meeting - Norember 27, 1995 increased as what normally we would expect it. But also understanding that it might be a short term phenomenon and looking to the future and seeing what models of public safety service should be adopted by the city as we move forward into the next centuu'. We, I think are ambitious in some of our goals in what we've discussed so far and the things that we'd like to do looking at community policing and how the aspects of community policing can be applied here in Chanhassen. Fire Department delivery' models. Emergency medical service...those kinds of things and how the growth pattern of the city will impact those demands and needs. We're looking at perhaps doing a 3 to 5 year plan and perhaps a longer range plan I understand than the 15 years out. Prior to doing a lot of work however we felt strongly that because we are an advisory commission to the Council, that we would come to the Council and explain what we felt we would like to do and what we feel is appropriate and get at least the Council's blessing in going ahead with this staffing study or future plans, strategic planning, xvhatever model you want to call it. So that's our pitch. We'd like to get involved in long term planning. We'd like your blessing in looking at that and working with you all in planning for the future needs of the ci~'. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you Bill. Bill Bernhjelm: Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Is there any questions at this time? Councilman Berquist: I'm a little, did you say that you were going to talk about what your discussions have centered around or you want us to basically tell you to go ahead and discuss long term planning? I'm a little confused. Bill Bernhjelm: I think that's what we're looking at. We've kind of broached the idea of long term planning and getting involved in that but before we started on a fairly involved road, we felt it to be important to at least get the blessing before we proceeded. We wouldn't want to come in here 9 months from now or a year from now and say this is a great report and have you all look at it and say, well thanks but... Councilman Senn: Bill, can you give us an outline or a better idea of the particular issues or I mean maybe not tonight but you 'know before we say let's go ahead or not, I think it'd be nice, at least from my perspective I guess I'd like to see kind of an outline of the issues you hope to address and where you expect to go with them. Bill Bernhjelm: Alright. Obviously some of the issues are the unique nature of our contract with the Sheriff's Department and how it is that we're able to buy patrol services through them. The uniqueness makes it a little bit difficult to predict it's future viability however and that's one of the concerns we have is how long are we going to be able to do this. Is there a point we need to do something different or is this model something that should be built upon and continue. That depends a lot on not only service users...service provider and how much, how willing they are to continue to provide that service. Those are some of the things we need to look at. Scott Harr: Bill, if I could comment on that as well. I think the outline would really take the format of the divisions within the department. What the commission has been talking about for several meetings is, okay we meet month after month. We deal with some citizen traffic complaints. We hear reports from Sheriff's Department, the Fire Department. Things are going along smoothly. What can we best do as a group to look toward the future and one of the ideas that the commission came to at the last meeting was, how about ever5' other month take a look for a couple hours at different divisions. One month have a business meeting. Deal Cid? Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 with the routine business. Next month take a look at the conmmnity service officer program, the animal control program together. How's that working. What can we do to improve that. A month or two later take a look at the fire department. Really look at statistics. Sa.,,; where can we go from here. Are we doing the best things with the long range truck planning. Personnel planning. Law enforcement. How can we make the system, the sheriff's office to continue to work this well. Crime prevention. Are we working to the best of the ability there? But it's literally, at least the way the commission is looking at it now, will take a half a year because they're looking at eveu,, or a full }'ear actually because ever',,,' other month would be spent just looking at the building inspection program. Two months later fire department. Txvo months later, community sen, ice officer. Animal control program. So it's just taking some time to see xvhere we can move in the futur~, but because it's going to take so much time, the commission wanted to make sure, as Bill said, in a :),ear or so xvhen they come back with a report, that the response xvasn't well that's nice but we didn't ask }~ou to do this so we'll move on to business items. Mayor Chmiel: I guess what you're really basically saying is, Chanhassen's growth is coming. How can we provide those same kinds of services we're providing now in the long run and yet continue to look at different aspects as you had mentioned to see how we can implement those or even make them better than what we're doing right now. Councilman Berquist: Well I appreciate your work as a volunteer and have at it. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thanks Bill. Really appreciate it. By the way I forgot to mention too the fact that Bill understands a lot of these things only because he is the Polic~ Chief i~ the City of Edina so to look at that and provide those kinds of services, that does give us another idea. Thanks. But it's great for someone to provide their time to the city in doing this. Okay, we'll move along. Before I do, is there any additional visitor presentations? Seeing none, we'll go to our next item which is a public hearing. PUBLIC HEARING: CSM CORPORATION, SOUTHWEST CORNER OF DELL ROAD ANq) I-HGHWAY 5: A. REQUEST TO VACATE AN EXISTING RIGHT-OF-WAY AND UTILITY EASEMENT ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP. B. PRELIMINARY PLAT OF APPROXIMATELY 36.6 ACRES INTO 3 LOTS AND 2 OUTLOTS~ SITF, PLAN REVIEW OF TWO 64,000 SQ. FF. BUll.DINGS, WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT Sharmin A1-Jaff: There are three actions being requested with this application. A subdivision, site plan review for two office warehouse buildings, and a vacation of an abandoned public right-of-way and a utility and drainage easement. The site is currently zoned industrial office park. It is bordered b~ Highway 5 to the north, Dell Road to the east and a Lundgren Brothers residential development to the south. The site is visible directly from Highway 5 and has full access from Lake Drive East. The subdivision request consists of subdividing 61 acres into three lots and two outlots. Lots 1 and 2 are proposed to contain two buildings. Outlot A will be reserved for future development. The third lot xvhich will be labeled Lot 1, Block 2 contains an existing building which is the DataServ building. The vacation is for an abandoned right-of-xvay which used to be the old alignment for Lake Drive East. And the utility and drainage easement that's being requested for vacation is an abandoned watermain. The site plan is for two buildings. They're L shaped mirror image of one another. Out here on the stand we have the materials that are proposed to be used on the building. I will also pass out computer generated images that the applicant has composed as you are going along Highway 5. As you're going along Highway 5 what you will be seeing. The}' are proposed to utilize face brick on all four comers of both buildings, as well as areas surrounding entrances into the building. Decorative pre-colored rock face block City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 will be integrated into the walls, accented by pre-color masonry band. There are two pitched elements adorning each building. Signage on the building is designated along the band that's colored in red. The applicant has submitted some photos of buildings that they have already built that show some signage that they have done, just to give you an idea of what it would look like. Parking for vehicles is located around the building. This is not consistent with the Highway 5 requirements. However, the buildings will require a total of 246 parking spaces. Rather than concentrating them all in one spot, the spaces were designed around the building. They're broken by landscape islands and screened from viexvs from Highway 5 and Dell Road, as xvell as Lake Drive East by berms as well as vegetation. There's a maximum of two rows of parking at any given location. Site landscaping is generally of high quality. There are some areas such as immediately to the south of the location of the loading docks that we're recommending the applicant increase the number of evergreens to maximize screening in that area. A meandering berm of 4 to 6 feet in height runs along the entire edge of the site. That also provides screening. The applicant has been very cooperative throughout this proposal. It's a very good design. It meets all of the requirements of the ordinance. Staff is recommending approval with conditions outlined in the staff report. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Sharmin. Is there any questions of Sharmin at this time? Councilman Senn: Why the vacation, eliminating at this time when that's being held for future development? Is there any chance that. Sharmin A1-Jaff: We don't need it. Councilman Senn: Okay, there's no chance of anything really going through there2 Even to service the development. Sharmin A1-Jaff: Not at all. Councilman Senn: Okay. Mayor Chmiel: Any other questions? Councilwoman Dockendorf: I 'know I'm coming in on this late and it may have been addressed. Is there an issue with the poor soils there? Don't they have poor soils on this site or is that a little bit to the north of this? Sharmin A1-Jaff: None that we're aware of. Councilwoman Dockendorf: There was like a vacated. Kate Aanenson: There ,,vas a wetland issue in the corner that we did address and it was determined there wasn't a wetland. That was when Southwest Metro was looking at this. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Right. Wasn't there like a, I thought there was...put there. Tom Rockford: I could address that item. Councilwoman Dockendorf: If you could please. City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Mayor Chmiel' Yes, if you'd like to come up and just indicate your concerns. Please state your name and who you're representing. Tom Rockford: Yes. 1543' name is Tom Rockford. I'm represent the developer, CSM Corporation. We have done some soil sample work out there and there are some soil, some soils will have to be removed and fill brought in. To the extent we've done our research we feel that we've quantify what that issue is. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, thanks. It just seems to me xvhen we were looking at for Southwest Metro, there was an issue. Kate Aanenson: And there was a wetland issue... Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay. Councilman Senn: Sharmin? Sharmin A1-Jaff: Yes. Councilman Senn: If I understand the layout of the back of the building, I mean really the parking has to be the way it is, otherwise the loading docks would be in conflict with the parking, wouldn't they.'? Sharmin A1-Jaff: That's correct. Mayor Chrniel: Okay. Maybe now we could have the developer come forward and indicate if you have any concerns in relationship to some of the things that staff has indicated within all three phases of those with the conditions. Tom Rockford: Thank you Mayor, members of Council. Again my name is Tom Rockford. I represent CSM Corporation. We're the developers of the project. I thought the staff report was very self explanatory and we are prepared to give you a lengthy, thorough presentation if need be. What I'd like to do is just give you a couple minutes information on CSM. Who we are. We've been in the development real estate business for the last 20 years. We're celebrating our 20th anniversary this year. We worked with DataServ on this site for about the last 18 months or so. We've gone through a fairly...negotiation with the DataServ folks and we've been very diligent in our pursuit of the site. We believe vets,, strongly in the potential that the site has. Over the last 4 or 5 years CSM has been one of the few local real estate developers who's been actively developing property. We've also pre-developed a number of sites around town, both office warehouse, office showroom, and commercial. Some of the projects you may be familiar with, the shops at Lyndale. On 78th and Lyndale is, we're just starting our second phase of redevelopment there. We have under construction now about 150,000 square feet of office showroom space. VeD, similar to the product that we envision here in Chanhassen and in Eden Prairie. It's in the Golden Triangle industrial park there. We've also completed about 100,000 square feet of office showroom space, again a similar product up in Brooklyn Center. Boone Avenue Business Park up there. Our current portfolio consists of about 3 1/2 million square feet of industrial space. About 2 1/2 million feet of commercial space and upxvards of about 6,000 apartment units in the upper midwest. Basically our philosophy is to...own and manage on a long term basis. As I mentioned, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce a couple other people who are with us tonight. Mark Kusnierek is the project architect with CSM. And two people from RLK who are our engineering consultants, Steve Schwanke and Eric Johnson are here as well. There are a couple things that we'd like to bring up at this point. There is a letter that was dated today City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 that I believe a copy has been sent along to each of you folks that we'd like to present and talk about this evening. There is a couple things I'd like to point out at this time. If you'll note on the November 27th letter, item number 3 asks to do a traffic report and the reason I'd like to bring this up is just to point out that all the issues that have been addressed by staff and by the city's traffic consultant have been addressed. The other issue has to do with, on the second page, item number 7 which is entitled the Dell Road upgrade and financing. And what this is referring to is basically one of the conditions that was brought up at the Planning Commission meeting on November 1st and it has to do mainly with the expanding and upgrading of Dell Road. And what I'd like to do is try to make this a little clearer on what we're saying on this item number 7 is that the Dell Road upgrade and financing, condition number 10 on page 16 of the staff report states that the applicant will upgrade and extend Dell Road south of Lake Drive East to the south of city limits as well as install...to Lake Drive East to the regional pond site. What I'd like to do is try, to break those up because I think the issue that we have as developers relates primarily to the Dell Road project and what our concern is, and what we've addressed a little later, is that xve don't have any issue with performing the work. With contracting for the work but we have had some discussions with staff relative to how that's going to be financed and that really isn't addressed under that item, condition number 10. And that's what we would like to have further discussions on this evening as to how that will be financed. Then again as it relates to the storm drainage system, that's a separate issue. We aren't looking for any financing assistance on that but it's really the Dell Road upgrade that is our main concern. There are other issues that we've raised there but I think at this point I'd be happy to answer any questions that you may have. If I can't answer them, I'll call on my support staff. Mayor Chmiel: Are there any specific questions that you may have in relationship to what's been presented? Councilman Senn: I guess I'd like to 'know from Kate what. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, we just got this letter too. There's some ambiguity in the letter. Some issues that obviously need clarification on. We just got this letter too. We believe number 7 is an issue for the Council to make a decision on. It's a separate body. I don't knox,,' if that's something that the HRA needs to look at. That's where that item should be discussed. We think our condition number 10 is clear. Number 4, as far as the vacation, Council has to act on the vacation. That can't be done administratively so I don't know if you want to go through these. We just got the letter. There's some other, just some minor ambiguities in some of these issues but. Mayor Chmiel: Well I think probably what you should do Kate is to make those clarifications as to what there is, and maybe just go through that right now. Kate Aanenson: Sure we can go through them one by one. Number 1, that's fine. Number 2 I believe is fine. Number 3 is fine. Number 4 I already addressed. The Council does have to act on the utility and street vacation. Mayor Chmiel: Yes, correct. Kate Aanenson: Again this is preliminary plat. You could do that at the time of final plat xvhen it's on for consent. Mayor Chmiel: Sure. City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Kate Aanenson: Number 5, the storm water quantity and quality fees, I'm not sure exactly what the issue that they're raising there is. Tom Rockford: I think what we'd like, what we're asking for, the way that the condition is worded now I believe that prior to the storm water fees it has to be identified in the construction plans...completed. We believe that the fees and credits can be determined now and we would be agreeable to determining those fees now subject to any revisions that the construction drawings might show. Certainly xve would agree that they're payable prior to the filing of the final plat. I guess the timing issue is the one that needs to be determined. Kate Aanenson: Just so you're clear on that. The fees, the quantity and quality fees are collected as a part of the recording of the plat. At the time of subdivision. So again that would be at the later date but we're just saying that until actually the design is approved, we've got the final numbers, they may fluctuate and I'm not sure what you're saying. Is that you want the opportunit3~, you believe that they're not going to change? Tom Rockford: Well I think what we're stating now is we believe that the fees and/or credits can be determined now without having the construction plans being finalized. And what we're looking to be amenable to is if the construction plans show that there's a change in those fees and credits, that that would be, that would take place at a later date. Kate Aanenson: Isn't that what our condition says? They're determined at the time. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah basically I think that's what it does indicate. Tom Rockford: I think it says that the construction plans are going to determine the fees and the credits and we don't have the final construction plans. Mayor Chmiel: Well until those construction plans are pulled together, I think that's xvhen we would at least have the knowledge. Roger? Councilman Senn: Well if I'm understanding if that's not a problem, we can give you an estimate now but the estimate's contingent upon the final construction plans. I think we're all saying the same thing. Kate Aanenson: Exactly what I'm saying. Isn't that what we said our condition says? Councilman Senn: Yes. So I think xve're all in agreement there. Kate Aanenson: It's just semantics. Right, that's what I'm saying. I think we're saying the same thing. Councilman Senn: I think he's taking the phrasing in the thing a little too literally and that's probably, he think it depends, he won't even get a number until the construction plans are finalized, if I'm understanding what he says. Tom Rockford: That's my concern. Councilman Senn: Okay. You can get an estimate now but it will be a contingent estimate. City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Kate Aanenson: Certainly and I believe Dave's given you an estimate. I believe it's in the body of the report somewhere. I can check on that. There was an estimate at one time and it's in the report of $92,000.00 I believe in the body of the report there's also an estimate. Tom Rockford: Yeah, as long as we get an estimate... Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Kate Aanenson: Okay, number 6. That's fine. And then number 7 again, I believe that's not on the Council's jurisdiction to discuss that issue of financing. If that's something you want to take up with the HRA. Mayor Chmiel: Maybe Todd, I know you're going to run a double duty here. But why don't you come up to the podium if you'd like and that wa)' you won't have to worry. I think you did address some of that at the HRA. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, it isn't it an HRA. It is a City Council action. It's an economic development district. CSM is asked to take a part of ),our 3 year special assessment land write down program. And along with that, we have the need of finishing our half of Dell Road over there. Through discussions with Charles and the engineering department we felt that the best way and the quickest way to get that road done is to have CSM build the road. CSM is benefitting from the road and I think we measured that of approximately 5% and that DataServ would also benefit from the road and xve think we came up with about 15% benefit. So with that we are looking at having CSM build the roadxvay and then reimbursing them through the increment from the district for the cost of building that roadway. And they would up front the cost and at no interest to the city and then we xvould reimburse them in the ),ears 1998, 99 and 2000 the cost of that roadway to the tune of about $140,000.00 over that 3 ),ear period. And then deducting 20% of the increment that would go, or 15% of the increment when DataServ would come in and build their new facility, which we're expecting to occur in the next couple of months. And for their pro-rated share of that road. The benefits of that is that the City doesn't have to manage the project. You don't have to sell bonds. You don't have to hire engineers. And that CSM would have to build that road to city specifications. And that at this time next year the road will be done. Kate Aanenson: Okay, can I give a clarification on this issue because the planning staff...dark on that issue. We did address it in the report so what he's asking for is clarification of how that financing mechanism is to take place. It's not in this report. We didn't address it. Todd Gerhardt: Right. I would hope at our next meeting I would have a private redevelopment agreement in front of you that xvould call out for the 3 );ears worth of increment back to CSM in addition to $140,000.00 for the cost of the roadway improvements. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. And this is a preliminary and that can be pulled together at that particular time prior to your final. Tom Rockford: Yes. Our only concern is that the condition, the way it's written now doesn't give us the level of satisfaction relative to financing. Mayor Chmiel: But I think as to what Todd said would specifically cover your concerns right noxv. Tom Rockford: Yes it would. City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Alright, is there any other questions? If seeing none, we'll go back now to the audience and see if there's anyone wishing to come forward. As I mentioned before this is a public hearing. This is the time for you to base your basic concerns. Is there anyone at this particular time who would like to address their particular issue before the Council? And if so, please come forward and state your name and address for us. If seeing none, is there a motion to close the public hearing? Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Senn seconded to close the public heating. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve Site Plan Review #95-18 as shown on the plan received October 2, 1995, subject to the following conditions: 1. The materials used to screen the trash enclosure shall be the same B'pe of brick used on the building. 2. Signage criteria: a. Each building shall share one monument sign. Monument signage shall be subject to the monument standards in the sign ordinance. b. Wall signs are permitted on no more than two street frontages as shown on the sign plan dated November 1, 1995. c. All signs require a separate permit. d. The signage will have consistency throughout the development and add an architectural accent to the building. Consistency in signage shall relate to color, size, materials and heights. No illuminated signs within the development may be viewed from the residential section south. Signage on the xvest side of the building will be alloxved or declined based on visibility to the neighborhoods residents, and consistent with the city's sign ordinance. g. Back lit individual letter signs are permitted. h. Individual letters may not exceed 2 feet in height, and logos shall not exceed 30 inches in height and consistent with the standards for the signage. i. Only the name and logo of the business occupying the unit will be permitted on the sign. k. The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting the signs on site. One stop sign must be posted on the driveway at the exit point of both sites. A detailed sign plan incorporating the method of lighting, acceptable to staff should be provided prior to requesting a sign permit. Signage on Building 1 shall be limited to the north and east elevations. Signage on Building 2 shall be limited to the north and west elevations. City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 3. Screening of the truck loading area along East Lake Drive must be increased to include coniferous double row screening the entire length of the dock area. Screening may include berms, ornamental and evergreen trees. An extended peninsula parallel to the entryway may also be considered on the condition that it does not impede truck access to the loading areas. The applicant must provide perimeter coniferous landscaping in the east parking lot, along Dell Road. 4. The applicant shall enter into a site plan contract with the city and provide the necessary financial securities as required for landscaping. Fire Marshal conditions: a. Additional fire hydrants will be required. One fire hydrant must be relocated. Contact Fire Marshal for exact changes and modifications. b. "No Parking Fire Lane" signage and yellow curbing must be provided. Contact Fire Marshal for exact "Fire Lane" areas. c. P.I.V. (Post Indicator Valves) must be installed. Show on utility plans. . d. A ten foot clear space must be provided around fire hydrants. Concurrent with the building permit, a detailed lighting plan meeting city standards shall be submitted. . 10. 11. Meet with the Building Official as requested in his attached memo to discuss. The applicant will need to develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook and the Surface Water Management Plan requirements for new developments. The building setback line and erosion control fencing shall be denoted on the final grading and drainage plans prior to final plat approval. The plan shall be submitted to the City for review and formal approval. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and disc- mulched or wood-fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of each activity in accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook. The applicant shall upgrade/extend Dell Road south of Lake Drive East to the south city limits as well as install a storm drainage system from Lake Drive East to the regional pond site. All public utility and street improvements shall be constructed in accordance with the latest edition of the City's Standard Specifications and Detail Plates. Detailed street and utility plans and specifications shall be submitted for staff review and City Council approval. The private utilities will be inspected by the City's Building Department.-The applicant and/or builder shall be responsible for obtaining the necessary permits from the City. The applicant shall provide detailed storm sewer calculations for 10 year and 100 year storm events and provide ponding calculations for storm water ponds in accordance with the City Surface and Storm Water Management Plan for the Cit3~ Engineer to review and approve prior to final plat approval. The applicant shall provide detailed pre-dex"eloped and post developed storm xvater calculations for 100 year storm events and normal water level and high water level calculations in existing basins, created basins, and/or creeks. 10 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Individual storm sewer calculations between each catch basin segment will also be required to determine if sufficient catch basins are being utilized. In addition, water quality ponding design calculations shall be based on Walker's Pondnet model. 12. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulator3, agencies, i.e. Can, er County, Watershed District, Metropolitan Waste Control Commission, Health Department, Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, Army Corps of Engineers, and Minnesota Department of Transportation and comply with their conditions of approval. 13. No berming or landscaping will be allowed within the right-of-way. 14. The lowest floor elevation of all buildings adjacent to wetlands and storm ponds shall be a minimum of 2 feet above the 100 year high water level. 15. A regional water quality and water quantity pond shall be provided on site to pretreat storm water runoff prior to discharging under Dell Road into the Eden Prairie wetland. The proposed storm water pond must have side slopes of 10:1 for the first ten feet at the normal xvater level and no more than 3:1 thereafter, or 4:1 throughout for safety purposes. The stormwater pond shall be designed to 60% to 75% phosphorous removal efficiently. A landscape plan providing upland and wetland plants to naturally blend into the landscape is recommended. 16. Existing wells and/or septic systems on site will have to be properly abandoned in accordance to City and Minnesota Department of Health codes/regulations. 17. The proposed commercial development of 21.3 acres of which 10.23 acres are being developed shall be responsible for a water quantity and quality connection charges in accordance with the City's Surface Water Management Plan. These fees are payable to the City prior to the City filing the final plat. The final xvater quality and quantity connection fees will be determined based on final construction drawings. 18. The applicant shall report to the City Engineer the location of an5, drain tiles found during construction and shall relocate or abandon the drain tile as directed by the City Engineer. 19. The installation of traffic signals at the intersection of Lake Drive East and Dell Rod is expected in the future. The developer shall be responsible or share the local cost participation of this signal on a percentage basis based upon traffic generation from full development of this site in relation to the total traffic volume of Dell Road. The traffic signals, when they meet warrants, will be installed through a city public improvement project. The developers and/or property oxvners shall waive an.,,' and all procedural and substantive objections to the special assessment, including but not limited to hearing requirements and any claim that the assessment exceeds the benefit to the properties. 20. All roof top equipment must be screened in accordance with city ordinances. 21. The parking area for Lot 2 shall maintain a 10 foot side yard setback along the west edge of the property. All 'voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. (A tape change occurred at this point in discussion.) 11 Cit3.' Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilman Mason: ...move approval of preliminary plat to subdivide 61.6 acres into three lots and two outlots, Chanhassen East Business Center. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second. Mayor Chmiel: Moved and seconded. Any discussion? Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve Preliminary Plat for Subdivision #95-18 for Chanhasscn East Business Center as shown on the plat received October 2, 1995, with the following conditions: 1. Park and trail dedication fees to be collected per city ordinance. 2. The applicant shall enter into a development contract with the City and provide the necessary financial security to guarantee compliance with the terms of the development contract. '3. Ail areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and disc- mulched or wood-fiber blanket or sod within two xveeks of completion of each activity' in accordance with the City Best Management Practice Handbook. All catch basins shall be protected with silt fence or hay bales until the parking lot is paved. The applicant shall provide detailed pre-developed and post-developed stormwater calculations for a 10 year and 100 year storm event, 24 hour duration. Individual storm sewer calculations between each catch basin segment will also be required to determine if sufficient catch basins are being utilized. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulator5, agencies, i.e. Carver County', Watershed District, Metropolitan Waste Control Commission, Health Department, Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, Army Corps of Engineers, and Minnesota Department of Transportation and comply with their conditions of approval. The appropriate drainage and utility easements should be dedicated on the final plat for all utilities and ponding areas lying outside the right-of-way. The easement width shall be a minimum of 20 feet wide. Consideration shall also be given for access for maintenance of the ponding areas. 7. The applicant shall dedicate on the final plat the necessary right-of-way for the upgrade of Dell Road. 8. The site with the DataServ building shall be shown on the plat as Lot 2, Block 1. 9. The applicant shall dedicate a cross-access easement over Lots 1 and 2, Block 1, Lot 2, Block 1 and Outlot A. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Mayor Chmiel: And also for the. Councilman Mason: Move the vacation of the abandoned public right-of-way and utility and drainage easements. 12 Cit.,,' Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councihvoman Dockendorf: Second. Resolution #95-125: Councilman Mason moved, Councihvoman Dockendorf seconded to approve Vacation #95-4 of the old alignment of Lake Drive East through Outlot A and the abandoned watennain easements subject to the following condition: The applicant shall pro,,'ide the city with a legal description of the old alignment of Lake Drive East through Outlot A and the abandoned watermain easements per deed Doc. No. 4556054, proposed to be vacated. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Roger Knutson: On your agenda you also have a wetland alteration permit. Mayor Chmiel: I think that covers, yes there is. Kate Aanenson: Actually a alteration permit was required so, it was noticed and it was determined by, we noticed and originally... Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. AWARD OF BIDS: S4.5 MILLION GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS~ SERIES 1995C. Don Ashxvorth: A1 Erickson with Springsted is here this evening to go through the bid process. Bids received and with that I'll turn it o,,'er to Al. A1 Erickson: Thank you ,,,er)' much Mayor, members of the Council...general obligation bonds. Springsted, on behalf of the city took bids on that bond issue... I'm ,,'er3.' happy to report that the City of Chanhassen received 10 bids for this issue... Most bids received was from...syndicate which was led by Raymond James and Associates. It's a firm out of St. Petersburg, Florida. We also received a number of bids from the Chicago area and northern Mihvaukee... The low bid ``vas for 4.647% which I think fell well under... The issue will not need the entire amount capitalized...in order to pro,,'ide the carrying costs...approximately $40,000.00 and you will be able to put back into your construction fund...The issue qualified for non-insurance today by MDIA Corporation. The insurance was purchased by the low bidder. It's not something that the city received a... Also to remind you that the Standard and Poors reaffirmed the A- rating on this issue and I'I1 also note that Moody's also rated this issue. We did not request it nor are paying for it, however Moody's felt they needed to do it in order to complete the fiduciaU' responsibility they had because they have rated previous city...Moody's did increase the city...In conclusion I'd like to tell you that it was an outstanding sale and I feel very good and we would recommend that you... If you ha,,,e any questions. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you. Steve, do you have any questions? Councilman Berquist: No. Mayor Chmiel: Colleen. 13 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah. Just to refresh my memory. I think it's probably for Charles. What are we spending this on again? What are the major items? Charles Folch: One is the Coulter Boulevard/Galpin Boulevard project. Councilwoman Dockendorf: The what? Charles Folch: Galpin/Coulter Boulevard project. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Oh yeah. I keep thinking Coulter up here. Don Ashworth: Lake Lucy Road. Charles Folch: Lake Lucy Road Project No. 92-12 and the first partial phase for Phase I of Lyman Boulevard. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, thanks. And this Raymond James and Associates, have you ever heard of them? Dealt with them? A1 Erickson: Yes. They used to be part of Daine Bosworth... Mayor Chmiel: Michael. Councilman Mason: None. Mayor Chmiel: Mark. Councilman Senn: No. Mayor Chmiel: I don't have any either. Is there a motion? Councilman Berquist: Move approval. Councilman Mason: Second. Resolution #95-126: Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Mason seconded to award the bids for the $4.5 million General Obligation Bonds, Series 1995C to Raymond James and Associates. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. DESIGNATION OF OFFICIAL DEPOSITORY FOR CITY FUNDS. Don Ashworth: The City Council, at the beginning of this past year asked staff to prepare an RFP process so that we could look at the official depository designation early, or in the fall. Make that designation so whoever might be designated, that we'd be able to order checks and accounts payable checks and other types of sheets that may be required for whomever would end up as the best RFP. We did that. In fact I think we got approximately 100 different RFP's from around the country. We've sorted through those and I really thought, I really thought that I had created, between Pam and I, an RFP that absolutely would guarantee that we could compare apples to apples. As I say in my report, boy I was wrong. The two bids that we received, xve 14 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 provided the RFP forms to ex'co' bank within the city of Chanhassen, which currently is four. We received the RFP back from two, Richfield and Chanhassen State Bank. In my report to the City Council I attempted to make a comparison to the two using the numbers that they supplied and my best interpretation of that. Mr. Mayor, maybe if you could hand one of these down. We were notified today by Richfield Bank that there were some errors in how we interpreted their numbers and I think that Century Bank would really like to stand on their proposal as the.,,' had submitted that, which would provide net earnings to the city, this is after payment of fees, of $38,124.00. The bids submitted by Chanhassen State Bank produced earnings to the city of $38,604.00. Staff, using the numbers we had available. The new information we received on Monday, put together the tabulation that I just go through passing out which we believe to be a closer approximation of the difference in the two proposals. That would show Chanhassen State Bank as having a better proposal by about, approximately $1,948.00. We should also note that we used their numbers even though we felt there were certain aspects of that that were incorrect. For example, they had not shown in certain yearly charges which amounted to about $123.00. And what was the other one? Oh! I didn't get a chance to talk to him on this but processing of payroll checks, or payroll changes at 8 cents per change is just not logical. The other costs have been $8.00 so we think that there's a typo in there. But that really doesn't make any difference. I think ~vhether you look at the proposal as submitted by either of the two banks, Chanhassen State Bank is low. If you look at the analysis completed by Pam using each of their own numbers, Chanhassen State Bank provides the best bid. And I think that a number of the comments that xvere made by the evaluation committee, specifically Cliff Hoffman of Deloitte and Touche, and the City Attorney, are very critical points and I think that those as well lend staff to recommend Chanhassen State Bank. I should also note for the record that if you look through the RFP, it is set out as a three designation and we really would hope that the city would in fact make that type of commitment simply from the standpoint that in ordering accounts payable checks, payroll checks, we can do that much cheaper if we order a 3 year supply'. But in talking with the City Attorney you cannot bind a future Council so therefore the most you could make the designation for is for 1996. I'm assuming the item would be re-presented a year from today, t would repeat many of the comments made here this evening with the recommendation that that designation continue to be kept with Chanhassen State Bank, but again we cannot bind a future Council to that form of a decision. Finally I should note that Councilman Senn had contacted me early and had asked to be a part of the evaluation committee. He came into City Hall on another item on, what was it Wednesday, just as the report was going out and that's the reason I put in there, I'm assuming that Councilman Senn would like to take and make his comments this evening. With that again staff's recommendation is for Chanhassen State Bank. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Mark, is there anything you'd like to say at this particular time? Councilman Senn: No, I guess not really. Roger's answered the question on a year three designation. Beyond that I guess just one comment. These ended up very close, which was good to see and it doesn't make a lot of sense in my mind to switch but at the same time I'd like to recognize the fact that by bidding it, our transaction charges came down quite a bit from what they were before and we're saving quite a bit of money on transaction charges over what we were paying before. A lot of our transactions were going nov,, for 15 cents and 10 cents for a transaction which was a pretty significant cut...so I think the benefit is there in relationship to the bid process. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, veu' good. Steve, do you have any comments? Councilman Berquist: No, I do not. Mayor Chmiel: Colleen. 15 Ci~' Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilwoman Dockendorf: Because we cannot bind a future Council, that doesn't mean we look at the whole RFP process next year...decided on a three year rotation for this and several others. On a couple other things like City Attorney. Councilman Senn: Did we get a clarification on that? These rates will hold for three years then? I mean, that was one of the questions I'd asked Pam that because if we're going to look at it that way, we need assurance that if we're going to look at it that way, the rates need to hold for three years. Don Ashworth: In my own mind, the RFP is pretty clear in that that is the case, but if you would like me to take and verify that before we. Roger Knutson: ...in the RFP, you can get out of it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there anyone wishing to address this at this time2 Seeing none, I'll come back to the Council and ask for a motion. Councilman Senn: Move approval. Councilman Mason: Second. Mayor Chmiel: Moved and seconded to award the Chanhassen State Bank as the official depositor}, for the city. Resolution #95-127: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to appoint Chanhassen State Bank as the official depositor).' for the City of Chanhassen for 1996. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Don Ashworth: Could I make one comment for the record publicly? Mayor Chrniel: Sure. Don Ashworth: I xvould like to thank both Chanhassen State Bank and Richfield. Both of them took an extreme amount of their own time to tr}, to present a proposal that would be in the best interest of the city. With Richfield they brought 5 people to the inter~'iew process. They wanted to make sure that we fully understood their proposal. And again the same is true with Chanhassen State Bank. Both of these entities are class acts and I'd like to thank both of them publically. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Don. 16 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 SIGN HEIGHT VARIANCE REQUEST TO ALLOW A 7 1/2 FT. HIGH ENTRY MONUMRNT SIGN TO BE LOCATED AT THE INTERSECTION OF LANDINGS DRIVE AND MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY~ KENNETH DURR. John Rask: Thank you Mr. Mayor. Kenneth Durr, the applicant, is requesting a variance to allow a 7 1/2 foot high entD' monument sign at the intersection of Landings Drive and Minnewashta Parkway. The sign is located on the recreational beachlot at the entrance to the subdivision. On June 13, 1994 the City Council approved the final plat for Minnewashta Landings. Entry monuments were shown at the entrance. However, no sign details were provided. Therefore staff had no idea of the actual dimensions of the sign. In August of this year a sign was erected without first obtaining permits. Staff notified the applicant that he'd either have to remove the sign and make it conform to the ordinance or request a variance from the Council. On November 1st of '95 the Planning Commission reviewed the variance. The Commission recommended denial of the variance and concurred with the Findings presented in the staff report. With that staff is recommending denial of the variance. With that I'd be happy to ansxver any questions you may have. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you John. Are there any questions of John? Councilman Berquist: The June 13th '94, that xvas before the issue with the other project out there on TH 41 where the same exact scenario occurred. John Rask: Correct. Councilman Berquist: So I can't really say, didn't you ask? John Rask: No. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, anyone else? Councilman Senn: I can't tell from the staff report, I mean why in June and August, now all of a sudden you 'know a variance in November. John Rask: Well we gave him some time to decide on how he xvanted to address the issue. I think by the time we notified him. By the time we could get him scheduled for a public hearing, we were already into November. I think he's probably, we noticed it about a ~veek or two after it went up and notified him right away so it was just a matter of scheduling the public hearing and getting the notices out. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is the applicant here this evening? Would you like to come for~vard and indicate your concerns. Please state your name and your address. Ken Durr: My name is Ken Durr. When we were planning the subdivision for Minnewashta Landings, my belief is that I had submitted color renderings which we had prepared. I had a number of these printed, and of the drawing but apparently it was not included in the packet. Subsequently we went ahead and followed our original concept and developed the sign and installed it and admittedly...an error on my part to folloxv up on details and follow all the procedures. But all of the things that xvere going on with the development and the Parade of Homes coming up, I think it just got overlooked and just didn't do it. Subsequently we did install the sign. It is in excess of 5 feet in height. The signage area however is less than the maximum allowable. The back drop that it is attached to is in excess of 5 feet. We spent a good deal of time and expense in trying to 17 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 dex'elop a sign that would do well with the area and be on a scale proper, aesthetic quality for what we... The construction of it is on a steel framework set into concrete and then the wood is applied on brackets to the steel. So if the sign...it would be maintained well by the homeowners association in Minnewashta Landings and it happens to be in excess of 5 feet in height. So I respectfully request the variance...to allow the sign... Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Are there any specific questions that you may have of Mr. Dug.'? Steve. Councilman Berquist: No, I don't think so. Mayor Chmiel: Colleen. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Only an apology for not getting back to you. Last week I was out of town. I'm sorry I didn't return your phone call. I was out of town last week so, I intended to. Mayor Chmiel: Michael. Councilman Mason: No specific questions. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Mark. Councilman Senn: No. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. We have to come up with a conclusion on this as to how we're going to go. I think one of these we did do not too long ago. We double fee'd it but I don't 'kno;v if that's the answer. Do it right now. Councilman Berquist: Well my notes, at some point as we continue to approve simply because they look good and no one objects, someone's going to conveniently forget. Not honestly forget. Is there a process in place now where they're. Kate Aanenson: Correct. We tried to remedy, to examine why they happened and we are making sure that it's a condition. When a subdivision goes through, it says right on there they would have to supply the staff with the plans and specs and require a permit. We're making sure that's a condition. Councilman Berquist: So if in fact the situation occurs a year and a half from now or two years from now with some development, xve'll have, it won't even really be an issue. We'll be able to say, tear the darn thing down and be gone. Kate Aanenson: We're hoping that solves the problem. Councilman Berquist: Hopefully that doesn't happen. Kate Aanenson: Right. Well the other issue the Planning Commission raised too is that we are having a lot of Parade of Homes. I mean what happens when these things are on the fast track. They're trying to get as much visibility and. 18 Cit).' Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilman Berquist: But like Mr. Durr says, it's not as if they do not have the plans for these things. I mean when they develop a, when they do a preliminary plat, I'm sure they're contemplating how they're going to market the property. Kate Aanenson: Sure. And we did see the drawing. It's clear that we saw the drawings. He represented that and he asked you for a variance on' the gazebo which we all talked about but there xvas never any indication about size, or anything at that and that's the area where we got into the gray. Yes, everyone understood that there'd probably be a sign out there bdt what those dimensions would be was never specified and that's what we're hoping to correct. Some of those measures to make sure that's understood what they can be in getting a permit. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Anything more Steve? Colleen? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well i,m really torn. I mean I've given my soliloquy up here about the competition is fine but I mean this is going to be quite an, I'm tiying to figure out how to change the sign to meet the ordinance and the way it's constructed, I don't see a viable option for us. I'm not an expert on those things but I'm inclined to leave it. If we can have some assurances that the homeowners association will deal with the upkeep of it. And I don't know how we can get those assurances but. Boy, I'd be awful on Board of Adjustments and Appeals but it seems a shame to tear it down unless it could be used in another eiB, for another development that you're doing. I truly believe it was an honest mistake and I think it xvas the city's process that's led to this mistake so I'm inclined to leave it. Or move it if it can be financially and feasibly re- used somewhere else. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Michael. Councilman Mason: Well the Planning Commission voted 6 to 0 with one abstention to deny the variance request and honest mistakes. Gee officer, I thought the speed limit was 30 mph. Or you 'know, excuse me, 45 and it was really 30. I don't doubt that it was an honest mistake but at what point, and I guess this is a discussion I'd like all Council to talk about a little bit here. At what point are people held accountable? Well it's an honest mistake. So we let this one go. The next one comes in and says it's an honest mistake. Welt you 'know I don't think it was. I have drive by there. It looks nice and my feeling was, reading the Planning Commission meeting Minutes is no one things it's ugly. I don't think that's the point but some steps weren't followed here and I personally have trouble letting it go as is. Now if we can work out something where perhaps the sign stays and something is done for the community, some sort of restitution if you will, I think maybe that can be talked about but I'm having trouble just letting it lay as is. That's my feeling. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. When you're talking in that particular vein, as we did with one of the other developers, we did double fee him. I don't know if it's a potential that we could move to a triple fee and the next one that comes in, it would be four times the fee. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well but hopefully that won't occur. Mayor Chmiel: Right, but I'm saying if. Councilman Mason: Yeah, and I guess I'm not even necessarily talking restitution to the city coffers. You know planting some trees in a park that needs trees or, I guess I'm just throwing some options out. It would be a shame to tear the sign down. A lot of money. A lot of time has gone into it. However, we do have some 19 C/ty Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 ordinances for some reasons and for Whatever reasons they weren't followed and I'm just having, I'm not quite sure where all this fits in. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Mark. Councilman Senn: Well I guess I really think that the Planning Commission did their job. I mean they interpreted the ordinances and I can't disagree with the conclusion they came up with. But really looking at the sign that's there, I don't see a real good reason to mess with it and I think given the new procedure that's going to be in place, that is going to I think put us in a lot firmer position of putting something in black and white and saying, here. We gave you this and we haven't had that before. I don't -know. Every one of these, it's kind of hard to liken this to even the one we did for Lundgren Brothers because each one of these is really an individual case. This one, I remember the discussion on the gazebo and looking at all that and I mean to me it's more one of those things I think that got lost in the fray by everybody. Not just the applicant. I think we were focusing more on the issue at the time as it related to the gazebo and ho;v that related to ordinances and what we allowed and didn't allow and I think, I don't 'know. Honest mistake. Is this an honest mistake? I don't knoxv. I don't think that's really the issue. I think it's really not worth messing with this one. I think we need to get the procedure in place that we can point to so it doesn't happen again and I really don't think we need to resort to some additional fee or something to accomplish that. Once the procedure's in place, our position's firm and we don't need... Mayor Chmiel: Yeah I think that staff has already got that procedure in place and with that, I think that I went out and I looked at that sign and I presume everyone had that opportunity to do that and when you do look at it, to take it down, I asked Mr. Durr the cost on that and it was approximately about $6,000.00. I see the Planning Commission's position and I don't disagree but they also mention in parts of their minutes that there should be some penalt3.' fee be added and that I think probably would be to double fee that specific installation. That being out of focus as far as size is concerned. So would there be a motion? Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'll float a motion to approve the variance request ;vith the stipulation that there's a double fee. Councilman Mason: I second that. Councihvoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Variance Request #95-8 to allow a 7 1/2 foot high entry monument sign to be located at the intersection of Landings Drive and Minnewashta Parlm'ay with the stipulation that the applicant be charged a double fee. All voted in favor and the motion carded unanimously. SIGN VARIANCE REQUEST TO ALLOW TWO MONUMENT SIGNS, 761 WEST 78TH STREET, RICHFIELD BANK. John Rask: Thank you Mr. Mayor. The applicant, Richfield Bank is requesting a variance to allow a second monument sign or what they're describing as a directional sign at the Kerber Boulevard entrance to Richfield Bank. On April 24th of this year the City Council approved Site Plan #95-4 for Richfield Bank and Trust... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) 20 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to den,,,' Sign Permit Variance/495-9 based on the findings presented in the staff report and the following: 1. The applicant has not demonstrated a hardship that would warrant the granting of a variance. 2. Richfield Bank has a reasonable opportunity to advertise their name and service with two wall signs and fountain area. 3. Provisions exist in the City Code for the use of directional signs. 4. The variance is inconsistent with the purpose and findings of the sign ordinance. All voted in favor and the motion carded unanimously. CONCEPTUAL PLANND UNIT DEVELOPMENT FOR A bi]XED LAND USE DEVELOPMF, NT OF COMMERCIAL, OFFICE, SINGLE AND MULTI-FAMII,Y ON APPROXISMATELY 66 ACRES LOCATED SOUTH OF HIGHWAY 5 BETWEEN GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD AND MARKET BOULEVARD~ VILLAGES ON THE PONDS~ LOTUS REALTY SERVICES (Taping of the meeting began again during the staff report presentation on this item.) Bob Generous: ...Ever3,, opportunity for pedestrian movement within the project is provided. We believe the proximity to the downtown and through the designation of appropriate uses that this could be a supplement to our downtown area and actually enhance the community. Staff is recommending that this project be given conceptual approval with the direction contained in the staff report and that the applicant move forward to address those issues that are outlined. Thank you and if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, thanks Bob. I guess I've got just a question for Kate. Some of the letters that I've received, one specifically here indicates that we feel however that city planning staff is forcing rental housing through by requiring it as a part of this development. Can you put some clarifications on some of that? Kate Aanenson: Certainly. As you know the city spent a lot of time going through the Highway 5 document and re-addressing this specific piece of property and as Bob showed you, originally it had some commercial on it. There was concern that there was an opportunity to put a big box user on this piece of property and that was not desirous of the city. I think once Byerly's and Target went in, we really felt like there should be hitting another nitch in that area. So that was reguided and that comp plan is up before the Met Council for review to go industrial for a majority of that northerly portion of property. But with the caveat that if they did come in, there was an opportunity for up to 25% support commercial so if there was a large user in there, there could be some support commercial with it. So when this proposal first came before the staff we had some ;vork sessions with the Planning Commission because at first blush we were opposed because we spent all this time coming forward with a different plan, that we xvere already in review. This basically kind of put us on our head to rethink this whole opportunity. So our first look at it said, well if we're going to get, if the developer wants some more commercial, xvhat's in the best interest of the eiB;.'? First of all xve want to have something different. And second of all, if there is to be additional commercial on this property, which we weren't really sure that we needed, then what is in it for the city and we felt like one of the things we needed, as Bob indicated, some more rental type housing. And a portion of that could be affordable. We've heard all kinds of stories that we're trying to dump a whole project on there that's low income or something like that. That's not the case at all. 21 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 There's a whole gamut of types of rental and moderate priced or affordable housing. There's all different types of jargon words on that so I think there's a lot of fear in that. The other concern I have on this is that, in some ways I think the developer's kind of made the city, the staff look like we're the ones forcing this. Whereas in the fact that he's coming forward or the applicant's coming forward with a different proposal than was recommended and we're saying, well if that's the approach you want to go, then we're trying to find what would be in the best interest of the eiB;. So we're trying to balance those two things. If they want additional retail, which we had never considered there, that we want something that would be a benefit...and we do need retail. And the reason we felt, I mean rental. And what we felt ,,vas important about that, the rental component was that there was an opportunity for transit on this land. Lake Drive, it makes a very nice slip on lane for the mass transit. It's a great opportunity close to downtown, to the schools, to sen, ices. It would be a great opportunity to provide a housing element. And there's a lot of different ways we can combine that. Whether it's on top of the retail. Mixed in with the office component so we're saying, we're willing to look at that but if you are going to consider more retail, we strongly support that there should, also as a component of that, look at some housing. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Do you have any questions of Bob? Steve? Councilman Berquist: Not at this time, no. I think I just want to hear some more. Mayor Chmiel: Alright, Colleen. Councilwoman Dockendorf: No questions. Mayor Chmiel: Michael. Councilman Mason: No. Mayor Chmiel: Mark. Councilman Senn: No. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is the applicant here? Would you please state your name and your address. Brad Johnson: Brad Johnson. I reside at 7425 Frontier Trail and we represent the Ward family who are the owners of the property and have been for about 100 years. Basically this evening I'd like to just address the process that we're going through with the neighborhood and the Planning Commission and now the City Council and give you the big picture of what we're tu~ing to accomplish here and then Jack's going to go over the land use plan that we have and...slide show on what we're trying to accomplish. But let's go back to what the process is. We're in a conceptual process and I think it's been working quite well. We have a great idea...this particular idea was a great idea and we go to the planning staff and they don't think it's as great or we've done something unique... But generally we'd like to see the staff report like you have now by the time we get here. In other words...what we're trying to accomplish rather than...trying to accomplish. The next thing I did last summer, we've been at this for about 6 months, 7 months so far. As a matter of all...because I 'knew they had some concerns...212, Highway 101 corridor...expected that we would hear from them. So I met with the nearby neighbors and we're set to address their issues and these will be just the neighbors along the east side and I talked on the phone to all the people that are on the south side. And the major concern at that time that they had was that we provide public access to the property and also that we make it possible for them to get public 22 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 utilities, and these are reasonable requests. And then finally, try to buffer their community which has been 2 acre or 1 acre lots, one house... We took that into consideration and put together a plan. We sent a mailing out but our secretap,., forgot to send it to the other half of the community which would be, xvhat's the subdivision...? Audience: Brookhill. Brad Johnson: Thank vou. Brookhill and we didn't send it to...direct response until we came to the hearing here and we realized of course at that point that we'd made a mistake in our mailing and so therefore we went to one Planning Commission and then had another meeting with the neighborhood and we tried to keep and communicate...and made some adjustments in our plan based upon their concerns for this particular project. Originally, in order to buffer the first neighborhood we had decided the best use of that was small pad rental, for lack of anything else...if you think of Heritage Apartments for example is on an acre and a half. 18 units so it's a small pad in the area. And so we proposed rental but high densits,, we had to go to a high density zone. Originally in our concept, before we went ver5.~ far with this at all xvas way back even before we went to planning was the townhouse. We had an opportunity to do some senior housing that requires high density and the neighborhood in general was opposed to the high density concept, mainly because of the size of the building...they had transition. A lot of legitimate reasons in the planning process so we've adjusted our plan.., at the last time we believe the neighbors are okay with is that easterly section of the property will now be, so we're requesting at this point a townhouse type of atmosphere. In addition to that there is a lot of concern about the traffic on East Lake Drive. Is that what it's called? And that's an issue that we'll have to deal with as we look through and they raised the question, just because you now have a neighborhood and then you'll have that whole area is zoned I believe all the xvay along here in detail so they're just concerned that...traffic over there which is...concern most neighborhoods have. So on our property we decided to deal with those issues. Kate has brought up the idea and I was at your affordable housing meeting the other night, that we are concerned that we t~~ to figure out one, how to handle mass transit within there. This could be a winner. And then number two, how we integrate that into the community. It's still premature to do that but we'll go back now to the design because that's what will lead to the process. You'll see a concept now for the, probably the second time. We xvere here once before just in pictures but you'll see the project as a whole initially and that's just to get your opinion as Bob has said. Then they'll rewrite the staff report to absorb all those things that you're concerned about. And then we have txvo more runs at it before we'll actually come back xvith the buildings and how they perceive the whole road system will work and things like that, which is a whole different issue. Not so much land use as now that we're using the land, what it will look like. That will take up about 6 months so probably sometime next summer we'll probably get to a PUD possibly with preliminary plat approval, as we see it. So this is not a real fast process. And it shouldn't be. This is, oh I'm just trying to figure out. Between $20 and $30 million development. It's probably, it won't look like that when you see the buildings ultimately because they're not big buildings. They're mostly little buildings but the }ize of the development is a combination of Byerly's, Target and Market Square and most of the downtown. It's about the same size in total square footage. From a tax base point of view it will add about $1.7 million in taxes that it will pay when it's accomplished. That's a little bit bigger than a Rosemount. I think Rosemount pays a million, a million two. The last school election it would have contributed between $50,000.00 and $100,000.00 to the referendum directly. So it's not a small project. We think it's about the right time for it and a lot of it's office, which we don't have a lot out here. Corporate type of places and the rest is retail. So we'll go through that but that's kind of the rationale and process and then we'll come back again. We'll try to keep with the neighbors. Obviously when we go from concept to hard facts, there's things we're going to run into that we didn't think about, and that's probably going to be the hardest step that we have. Harder than the one we've got so the people that are here with us, Verne]le of course is here with us from Lotus and Jack Lynch with BRW. We brought them in because they did plan the Highway 101 alignment so they're familiar with what's supposed to happen there. 23 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 And then...Milo will be the project architect and he's had a lot of experience in planning communities and they'll be going ahead and I'll be just listening to...so Jack, do you want to go through with where we are? Jack Lynch: We're dealing with about 65 acres. This site is a tough site to deal with for two reasons, and it's a difficult process. The site gives us problems from two standpoints in that, as staff has indicated, you have a guide plan and two studies that all take a look at a little different approach at this site. So your guide plan and your vision 2002 and }:our Highway 5 corridor plan all have been envisioned a little bit different to handle as a site. The site is also extremely sensitive. It has a number of, as staff has pointed out, has a number of wetlands. It has some steep terrain and it has some mature hardwoods. From a pi-ocess standpoint it's rather difficult because quite frankly most people do not go through three steps and a PUD process. We usually handle the preliminary and the conceptual stage together. So that in this process staff has had no site plans, no parking lot layouts, no architectural details, no building pad details, to really get into depth then. Quite frankly...asking is an inkle that the land uses we're proposing and the intensity we're proposing makes some sense and if we can3,' through on what we say we're going to can3, through on, we can come to an agreement. The land use plan envisions about 250,000 square feet of retail and extension of the downtown. The current downtown in Chanhassen is basically complete. The only possible extension of downtown is this parcel. So we're proposing an extension of downtown with small buildings, highly articulated architecture. One and two story buildings. No fiat roofs. Pitched roofs. Buildings pulled up close to the frontage road system. Basically a new concept in retailing where you could park on the street and walk in the front door of a retail store. We understand that the frontage road is MSA standards. MSA money. The MSA standards allow for parking on those roadways. The buildings again would be pulled up close on the street. Parking would be located in the backs of the buildings or on the sides of the buildings. So we have on the northern portion of the propel-ty about 250,000 square feet... The orange area includes about 200,000 square feet of office space. This is probably the more sensitive of the site, which shows three very general...for office, located on either side of the reconfigured TH 101. The parcels would be, since the area designated for offices is rather sensitive, it has some steeper slopes on the southern portions of these parcels, we would have to go to basically a 2 or 3 story office building that would require some underground parking and small pads to make sure that we don't destroy some of the slope conditions. Also the more mature vegetation. More mature hardwoods that are located on those slopes. And the residential component is about 7 acres and revised recommendation or net density would require, or would propose about 16 units of a lox,,' rise, for sale product along the eastern property line. The access would be provided off of Highway 101, and the frontage road system. We're also showing access back into the larger residential components that are not currently sen, ed with a public access on the eastern property line. In fact that needs txvo cul-de-sacs. We are to;ing to look at serving those areas off of one public roadway. Currently there is heax9' terrain in this area betxveen the two cul-de-sacs. That's the reason for the two cul-de- sacs. And the southern portion, basically open space. There is one 'knoll in this area for essentially...density residential component. And then Brad's lakefront home on Lake Susan. The proposal includes a pretty extensive open space system, hooking up the existing major wetlands in the area to an existing trail system that's currently in place and expanding on that trail system. I think the image that Brad's going to show you some slides on is a highly pedestrian oriented system Again buildings located up close to the frontage road, Lake Drive, and on street parking. The on street parking would not be required to support the retail. It's just an additional parking that we could take advantage of. With that staff would like to show a few slides. And again three problems we have. We've studied the park. We've studied this...your guide plan, Vision 2002 along with...Highway 5 corridor plans all says something different for this site. It's an extremely sensitive site with a lot of wetlands, heavily terrained in vegetation and we are going through a rather oddball type of approval process without asking you to comment on...detail plans and architecture. 24 Cit3~ Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilman Berquist: Can I ask one quick questions? You've got 9.5 acres. For instance 100,000 square feet. 7.4 acres, 78,000 square foot. Is that your hard cover? What is those? Jack Lynch: These are the square footages of building components. Councilman Berquist: Okay, so that's 3, our, in your mind's eye. Jack Lynch: Right. In order of magnitude... Councilman Berquist: It's not the hard coverage, it's the actual square footage of space. Jack Lynch: Correct. Councilman Berquist: Okay. Brad Johnson: Steve, even though he said that's an oddball process, the process happens to be xvorking so the idea is that xve provide a concept and rather than go out and design all kinds of things that don't xvork because the concept is wrong, so we get the opportunity to walk through the process. It's frustrating I think at times for everybody but it seems to be xvorking so we'll just keep on. I thought I'd, one of the village concepts was we have seen some changes in retail. If you read...I think it was last xveek we were talking about the revival of 43rd and France and...and places like that. Where people are trying to figure out how you get people from the malls. The big box concept in retail because we as consumers like cheap, low prices for high valued goods and like parking right in front of the door...The mega mall's proven that. There they have high service, reasonable prices, but there is sort of a resurgence of what you'd call neighborhood type of retail. And many of the retail centers such as Market Square and the Byerly's center over there have been considered to be viable, even though we do have some larger facilities. Certainly Byerly's is a larger facility than Target. Currently what we're thinking about is that the market in the next 5 years will be much, in Chanhassen probably will look a little bit like what you just saw where you have high tech office...proposed for over on Highway 5. That type of product looks like it can be absorbed out here... Secondly it appears that the office and market has recovered...provide an environment for people. These are not small offices. They'd be more 10,000 to 20,000 square foot tenants. There is that...interested in moving in there. And then finally just a retail absorption level that we've sort of realized that we've got that probably exists. In talking to some of the landlord here, it is interesting that there are some that you'd call mini anchor tenants that are interested in coming out but those are in the 10,000 to 20,000 square foot size. That used to sound big but now the big boxes are 100,000 to 120,000 square foot size so we have a number of tenants that have expressed interest in the under 20,000 category. We will ultimately need some anchors over there because people aren't just going to drive over there because we've got Berquist's Coffee Shop or something. So the image of it is, these are more the ones that you probably have seen and probably have not seen but I'll just kind of walk you through it. This type, anybody been here? This is downtown Excelsior. Ever since I've been here, Chanhassen has xvanted to be Excelsior so... Part of Chanhassen has wanted to be Excelsior. We had some discussions about zip codes at one time, but I can't remember that. But basically the idea is, obviously the architecture is different but the concepts that you see here which are on street parking, stores grouped together, that type of thing. I'm just showing you here because a lot of questions have come up about parking on the streets. One thing that has come through is to be pedestrian friendly also is also the same as having parking on the streets. I can't relate the two yet but it seems to be the xvay all these places, and each of these are very successful retail areas. You'll see that most of them are built sometime between the area of time, probably 1900 to 1920. Some as early as 1880. This is Excelsior again and you're aware of where these comers are but that kind of shows you the feeling. Again the architects. A lot of two 25 C/ty Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 story buildings. The5' happen to have some fiat roofs but we're going to avoid that. Same kind of thing here. It's a very viable sort of place. A lot of us have been to that movie theater. This is the parking in the rear. Not ver3.' well organized but what happens in Excelsior is they've discovered that they could not be successful without parking so over the years the city has been buying up parking in the rear and I didn't -know that was there for 5 years when I live~d here so I never went shopping in Excelsior because I couldn't find a place to park. But now that I know that that's there, because the streets were always bus)'. I'm just...but that's really true the way it is out there. This is downto,`vn Wayzata. There's is a little wider road but you'll notice that they've tried to, and what's interesting. That one new building on the right hand side is an upscale retailer, but I don't 'know what the name of it is. It started out as Gokey's but it's shifted but that's an example of where you've got new retail and it v,,orks. This is a little retail. This is on the main street but they have a little bit of parking right off of it. It has a nice look to it. Comfortable. Can you rent space in a downtown like this? This is, I was told the other day, you've got to realize that this looks at Lake Minnetonka. I didn't show you the other side of it which is hardly a thing that we have here but the rent in there is $24.00 a square foot and that's the highest rent being currently collected and it's in the do,`vnto,`vn, second story about retail. So it has worked. Okay, in other words, you can do certain things. That's unusual though. More of that downtovm. There's a restaurant called Sunsets} I think we're still in Excelsior. I'm going to go through here. No,,,,' this is over on Como Avenue and most of you have been by it if you go to the State Fair. It's right by the University of Minnesota-St. Paul. Again this is Muffaletta's. It's a little restaurant area over there but I thought I'd just take some pictures because again this is Como Avenue. It's fairly high traffic count yet they have parking on the streets and this is a very viable kind of community. They do have niches coming off where they're got green areas and stuff like this. Again, I think from now on you're going to feel like you're in Bavaria because that seems to be the trend of this architecture of the two stor)., type architecture but I just took these. These, they've got parking. They've got sidev,,alks and it's busy. You can't find a place to park. This happens to be Green Bay Road in Winnetka, Illinois on a Saturday morning. And that's really busy. This is a little strip of parking right off that area and again this is Saturday morning at 9:30. And so obviously something is successful. In this particular case they have housing above that was built a long time ago but it's worked and again parking on the streets so this is back to Como Avenue. A little bit of more of the Como Avenue area. This is a church. We were thinking that if we put a small church into this particular area, like...this is a church on that street. What happens with churches is, if you put a church in, when do they need the parking? Sunday morning. So you can intermix what would be a lot of, and...parking the rest of the day so you can cut down on your hard surface areas by putting churches in. This is a little townhouse project in Deerfield, Illinois. That's kind of quaint. That's why I took these pictures. It gives you an idea of what maybe we could do and this is a very tightly done thing. Those sell for about $300,000.00 each right now but in Minnesota we could probably build them for $115,000.00. This is just an expensive area of town. And so that's kind of a background of what, the idea and the vernacular. Taking this thing, you -know some of those ideas and then translating them to modern day architecture. This plan is our next step. And that's when you'll actually see what it's all about. I think the question you have before you is that a good use. I am here to say that it appears to me that we're under valuation as far as our commercial/retail is concerned. I noticed in the staff report they indicated about a 29% of our total tax base is commercial and my feeling, and talking to the community is one of the reasons that the latest referendum failed relative to the school simply is that the tax affect of having all these houses is starting to weigh on people and it's this b, pe of project, the type of project you saw before, which pay 3 to 5 times the taxes per acre of development which will help bring our taxes sort of back in line probably over time. You can't do that as a quick fix but we've got to encourage that type of development so I think somebody's always said, why do we need to do this? Well, we either have that choice or we're going to have very high taxes where we have to depend on Chaska to keep developing retail or commercial so the school district has money. As far as tax is concerned. I realize that does not affect the Minnetonka School District because I've talked...question that you have to deal with. But that's basically it. Since the process is a long process, we're sort of here to 26 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 listen tonight. We obviously have some ideas that we've been...tried to work with the neighborhood groups. To my knowledge I think we're on the right track with them but there are doubters. You know developers are developers so they're here to keep track of us and...so that's where we are. We think we've got an interesting project. I think the timing is correct with this because we have so much time to expand. As long as I've been here we've committed to a downtown area for retail. I think we've got all kinds of studies on and off Highway 5. We've tried to fit into everx study that's ever done. You know you've got your Highway 5 corridor plan and we've tried to adapt to it as we've gone through. The confusing part is this is just a concept. This is the first, as long as I've been here, so total land use concept that anybody's presented formally, and it's been an interesting process. So I'm here to answer questions and I'm sure the neighbors have something to say. Any questions of me at this time? Mayor Chmiel: Is there any questions of Brad? I guess not. Brad Johnson: Okay, thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. I'm going to open the floor to have your positions taken as to your thoughts. If anyone would like to come forward and indicate those concerns, please so that at this time. Would you please state your name and your address. Dave Kooumen: My name is Dave Kooumen. I live at 8153 Marsh Drive. I'm a new resident... Our major concern is with the buffering along the eastern property line, which runs the length of the Brookhill neighborhood. This area is currently zoned single family residential. The current proposal before you right now requests a rezoning of this to high density. We've met with Brad Johnson and Lotus Realty and we've agreed in principle to for sale townhomes in this area, which would provide us with a buffer. We do have an issue with the staff requirement for the inclusion of rental housing... Staff is saying that it is critical to include rental housing but provide no basis for the statement. Our...four years ago and it was still the same and it is still the same today and it's still in front of the Met Council to stay that way. I am agreeable to the concept of the townhouses. I don't want to see the three stor3.'. I don't want to see the big roofs come up above the trees. And I don't believe that a high density is good next to a single family. You need to graduate that down and I also agree with the on street parking. It helps slow the traffic that's going to be coming down Lake Drive. Eventually when the businesses come in there, they're going to be cranking down that road and unless there's something there that the3' can see, and not an open road, they're going to start flying. There's a lot of kids in our neighborhood and we already do have a problem getting out and getting over to the cit-),. We have a bridge now and as traffic increases we're going to have trouble even getting to that bridge so we'd like you to keep those concerns in mind. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Anyone else? Randy Empker: I'm Randy Empker. I live at 8163 Marsh Drive in the Broo'khill development and pretty much support ever)'thing that my neighbors have said. I would like you to consider something that they've brought up traffic problems and we've talked to Brad Johnson and Lotus RealB, about Lake Drive East and that thoroughfare that could become retail space built in that area and I would just like you to consider some kind of, we talked to Brad Johnson about a couple of things. Maybe putting a stop sign where Great Plains Boulevard would presently go and stop the traffic from flowing so fast into our neighborhood. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? If not, we'll. 27 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Brad Johnson: I just want to add one thing that has nothing so much to do with what I said. If you looked in the paper you'll notice that it was, that we are in discussions with St. Hubert's Church as a potential of relocation of their church and school to this site. That's just a discussion that's going on. You should be aware of that and I told the community about it previously but I forgot to bring it up in the last meeting and I just wanted to note that that's a part that could become a part of the overall plan and it will fit in...under a conditional use so it's just something that we're working on. This property is owned by two priests, a nun and a judge and so therefore there is some interest. Mr. Ward. Councilwoman Dockendorf: There's a joke in there somewhere you 'know. Brad Johnson: So there is an interest in the Catholic Church and this point of view. It's felt that possibly the Ward family will...the Wards were members of St. Hubert's, can figure out how to help St. Hubert's out and in the process they will do that so that's what we're going to do. We haven't quite figured out how to do it from a design point of view but we're working on it. Kate Aanenson: If I could just respond and make a cl,arification on some of the comments that were made. As far as how the residential got there. Mr. Johnson came forward with that proposal based on the fact that he had tenured an offer for a senior housing project to go on that site. It did not receive state funding so that was the site that they had collected. Obviously because it's adjacent to existing residential but we're not saying as a staff that that's where the high density has to go. We're saying there's opportunities, a myriad of opportunities based on the slide that Brad showed you. You could put some of the rental on top of the existing commercial. There's all kinds. We don't certainly say that's the only place it has to go. We've worked with the Planning Commission to show some other opportunities. Maybe it's on the other side of Lake Ann. We certainly want you to know that there's, that that's not the option that we've taken. That whole 60 acres, there's an opportunity but we do want to make it clear that this is a significant amount of retail and our issue is, in order to get that much retail we think they should give something back and that's... Have we demonstrated that? No. But we'd be happy to do that as a part of this report. We've talked to you. Unfortunately it wasn't shown in this report. Where we are as far as our rental in this community but we're way under. We're less than 10% and we really should have a few more rentals in the eiB,. Again we're not saying that that's the only location... And also I did want to let you know, and it's in the report but just to clarify that, it does require, this project does trigger a mandatory environmental assessment. Traffic is certainly one of the components we'll be looking at. It's a very sensitive issue to the neighbors. There will be other development on Lake Drive. It's going to be a significant factor. The Legion property and the Mortenson property are also developing so it is a concern and we committed during the Planning Commission to not only look at this segment but what the implications are on either side so we certainly will be looking at that. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, good. Thank you Kate. Let's go through the process to see where we're all at' least coming from. Steve. Councilman Berquist: At first blush it looks like a, I mean it really looks like a viable alternative for a piece of land where we all know something is going to go. You -know it really makes sense to do it from a planned unit development point of view. You can respond to different markets. We can make use of different pieces that fit. Different parts of the puzzle that make up a community. I can certainly understand the neighbors point of view from not xvanting high density. I can certainly understand Kate's point of view from having some rental. It seems as though the Planning Commission and the recommendations laid out therein address that by talking about reducing the density from high to medium. All the neighbors that are here will have an opportunity, if this goes forward, will have an opportunity for probably 3 or 4 years to follow every particular piece of land as 28 CiD' Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 it comes before various commissions for approvals and you'll certainly have to make your wishes known more than tonight or tomorrow or next month. From a resident point of view I find it hard to believe that Chanhassen will grow to the point where we need another 250,000 square feet worth of retail. On the other hand if you look at the projections where the people that are smarter than I am say ~ve'll have 32,000 people by the time we hit 2020. I suppose another 200,000 square feet is very desirous. We don't have any place at hand right now for small office users. The accountants, attorneys, those sorts of professionals are rather limited in the spaces that are available for them. There are no real corporate users. I mean I'm willing to look at the project on a PUD basis. That's probably what I should have started by saying. Go ahead. Councilwoman Dockendorf: We have dealt with other PUD's and we first do go through the concept and I always have to struggle with not getting bogged down in the minutia. Oh, where to start. I guess I start with my concern that we do have a lot of, still have a lot of available commercial land in our central business district downtown here and we keep expanding out without having to deal with the vacant properties that we have here, or the redevelopable properties. Redevelopable properties and certainly that's due to the expense. And Brad you're probably in an excellent position to help me understand where, how you see this downtown evolving. I mean is it going to be several more years? My concern is that, like I said, we keep going out instead of dealing with the core. Brad Johnson: You want me to answer that question? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes I would please. Brad Johnson: Currently there's, this is hard to believe. We should buy a bottle of wine but tomorrow we can possibly, they're going to pull a permit on Phase II of the Medical Arts building. I don't 'know if they want to... Councilwoman Dockendorf: So that would be the open lot along the... Brad Johnson: That takes care of that piece. Then the entertainment complex comes before you probably in January. That takes care of that parcel. Todd has been working with, I know he's got two potential purchase agreements on the last, what I perceive to be almost the last parcel. Remember it takes us probably a year just to get some kind of momentum on this site and so I think Vernelle did a study, which is in there, that we've been absorbing about 100,000 square feet a year and we currently have available to us probably 18 acres, which is almost nothing. So if we just continued on doing it, when we finish...Square. Let's say our people in Chanhassen, if we can attract people and make use of space, we collect the taxes whether we're using it or not. I mean that's the key element of what we're talking about. So...and we have actually filled, I think we're down to very little. Less than 20 acres? Kate Aanenson: 18. Vernelle Clayton: There are ideas for most all of those. Brad Johnson: Yeah, I think as far as we know xve have no developable sites on this side of the street that we can go after, except for one. I think Todd you've got one spot left over there where Fuddrucker's is thinking about. Todd Gerhardt: Two. 29 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Brad Johnson: That's not a lot and then across the way, you have a neighborhood retail that is going to sort of be, there's going to have to be plans for these guys. I see that as a tough site to deal with and that includes the Legion site. And then the rest of the zone retail is pretty mature. It's on the 212 corridor. Isn't that right.'? You've got some way do;;'n. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Right, and that gets away from this. So my major concern was that downtown. Brad Johnson: Yeah, we think this is a 5 year, we've actually made the mixed uses...and we've gone to the smaller retail users to hedge our bet, you 'know and we think the office, if we can pull the office off, that will generate traffic...and we haven't even tried to market it because we don't know what we've got but I think we're safe there. It's an absorption need. Our job is to go sell it...that's our goal. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, thank you. I like the fact that it is multiple use because I think it needs to be. I mean the area's so large and so unique that it does, I agree with Steve, it does need to be a PUD. In terms of the residential aspects, I think there's probably housing products that I'm not even aware of that would be very unique and fit in with this. I really encourage staff and the applicant to explore those, like flats on top of a commercial building. And I don't see why we couldn't, I think in our discussions of affordable housing and rental housing, I think we've all agreed that you put it here and there. You don't do a big block of it so I think there's lots of opportunities and I'm really happy with that condition that we do include that and keep that. And particularly for the rental. I mean it's a need in this community and something that we need, a product that we need more of. It kind of scares me a little bit that we're creating a second downtown because as much as we like to think that it isn't, Highway 5 certainly is very divisive. But I 'know people who work at Rosemount and don't go across Highxvay 5 to have lunch because it's considered too far. If they do, they take a car so this would certainly provide, I think the retail could be supported there. Going through the conditions, let's see what did I have issues on. My statements aren't as concise as the report was. Number 4, please define vernacular. It's not being used in the context that I've ever used it in. Councilman Mason: She's the lady that works with Lotus Realty. Councilwoman Dockendorf: That's Vernelle. Councilman Mason: Oh. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Number 6, definitely. Develop a strategy for affordable housing. And number 19 I want to stay in. The fact that we need to make a commitment to provide rental housing in the development somewhere. Condition number 24, I'm not ready to make that, have that part of that. I'd still like to investigate ;;,hat we could do, excuse me. For people ;;,ho don't have the report it reads, the density between the existing residential and the proposed residential shall be medium density, i.e. 4 to 8 units per acre and not high density. I'm not ;;'illing to back axvay from the fact that we potentially may have some needs to put a couple building pads of high density in there so I'd like to strike that one but other than that, I'm happy with where it's going. It's certainly very unique and something that I don't think many cities have encountered and it's a big project. Mayor Chmiel: Michael. Councilman Mason: Conceptually I think it's great. I think there's just, there are some very interesting opportunities for the city of Chanhassen here. I'd like to see it continue. I agree with Colleen. I think we need rental in this city. I have to take a certain amount of umbrage to the letter that talks about the low income, 30 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 government assisted housing will have on our home values. It amazes me when anyone, anywhere hears rental the}' assume that crime will go up 100% and nobody will ever be safe anymore and my property values are going to fall in the waste basket. I have an 89 year old aunt that rents now because she's not going to be around much longer and she rents instead of owns. I think as a community that is an issue that we have to address. We do need rental housing in this community and I'm glad that Kate clarified what she, the staff's position that it doesn't necessarily, there's no particular place it needs to be in there but that we do in fact need rental housing. I agree with that 100%. I had to chuckle a little bit when I heard that it's a new concept in retail to have parking in front of the stores. I grew up in a small town and that's what it was like and it's fun to see things kind of, the pendulum swings and things evolve and we've got the marketplace and all that stuff and we're going to tU' some new things. Conceptually I like it. Obviously there's a lot of work to be done and I think evel-}'one realizes that but let's keep going knowing that we have concerned neighbors and things need to be buffered but let's see what happens. Mayor Chmiel: Mark. Councilman Senn: I think well, I guess to start with I think the process is working and I tvant to see it keep going. I read your staff report and I see substantial differences between the staff report and the plan we have in front of us. As subtle as they ma}.' be, you know staff throws out these ideas. Starts throwing out these ideas and something has to give somewhere because it's not...so something's got to drop out of the middle or whatever. Personally I think this is probably going to be one of more important, or I'm going to say pivotal pieces of property that we have left to develop given it's location. Both in terms of it's proximity to the core but also in it's once removal, so to speak, from the core. I think I've walked it...walk it anymore. To me the more and more I look at the plan, I think one of the major problems I see with the concept that's being forwarded is there's just pure and simply too much retail. I think Lake Drive should be the natural barrier. The barrier or whatever you want to call it and I think retail should be confined to the north side of Lake Drive. I think the other commercial, being the office space should be confined to the west side of TH 101. I think if you did that there'd be plenty of room with the rest of the site to go protect the natural features and also provide a good mix of medium and higher density housing, tf I look at the concept notv, basically you've got 23.5 acres in retail, 14.1 in office and about 10.9 in residential. I guess the more I played with those numbers and played with those areas as they're defined, I guess I keep coming out more with something like 12.9 in retail, 10.1 in office and then residential split 7.4 in higher density, 17.1 in medium density and 1.0 in single family. The east side of that project, south of Lake Drive I think should be medium density housing and I think it should be ownership housing and I think it should be a mix of affordable and non-affordable. I don't think it should be all one way or the other. I. think the 7.8, 7.4 acres is kind of bullseye or whatever I guess in the project and I really see that as the real logical place to put the higher density rental housing. You've then got your industrial park buffering through some office space over to some higher density residential to some medium density residential to some single family residential which is the neighborhood to the east. At the same time you've got your retail up to the north of Lake Drive and really confining some of those, I'm going to say traffic and other problems that that would create if the},' stay on the north side and I think again create kind of a natural barrier to what would be happening on the rest of the site. The one big thing I noticed in relationship to the plan is just really not a real good delineation of the wetland... I think the wetlands are much broader than are indicated here, at least the general impression I had from walking that so I think part of that's going to be an over crowding effect. Kate Aanenson: Can I just comment on what you're saying. I concur with, as a part of this PUD process and you're right. I understand what you're saying. I believe that with what they're showing is the ultimate maximum density. Are we going to achieve those numbers? I don't think so because you're right. There is a 31 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 substantial amount of wetlands which is going to bring that down and those are the critical issues that we're going to develop at the next level and try to articulate so we can go back and say, does it make sense to have that. To doing that much grading on this piece. Should we move the pieces of the puzzle around and I guess that's what they're looking at so they have some idea of what your feeling is and what direction they should go. But you're right, that would be a maximum density. And some of the issues that xve raised, the lower densit3, on the end, we believe that should probably be left all in open space. It shouldn't be developed at all. Those two little ends so you're right when you sa5, the staff report doesn't match that because we've kind of critiqued our own. But there are going to be some issues raised and that's the process of the next level. Articulating those issues so we can go back and say, that doesn't make sense for land use so again that's why there's no standing with the conceptual because we don't have enough information to make all those critical issues. So I agree with what you're saying. And some of these numbers are going to drop down and the development parcel size and it may shake up all our whole thinking. We have to come back to gee, our original thinking doesn't work based on what we found out. It's just going to be too much degregation and we have to start the process over. But they're looking for some direction to go back and decide what to study in the next level. Councilman Senn: Yeah. As I understand it, I mean you're asking for and they're asking for feedback and I'm trying not to be general. I'm trying to be as specific... The other, I guess really just one other point. I can almost I guess assume it's coming and I guess I'd like to go on record for it right now and that is that I can't see any way I'd support the use of the TIF for the commercial on this property and removing it from the tax rolls. I think it's really time that we let the market take over in the subsidy of the retail commercial. The market can take care of itself now and certainly be able to look at that, I think maybe for some of the housing stuff, especially as it would relate to the affordable, the elements of the housing but, that that would be done. For whatever it's worth. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks. Now when I looked at this, the first thing that came to my mind, is this in the best interest of the city. And then the things that I had read, a supplement to the downtown. The extension of the downtown. In my own mind right yet, I'm not sure it's changing some of that concept of the downtown. Of course you'll basically need it but I think we've got a lot of locations that this will be done to provide that kind of service to the balance of the community. Parking in the street. That doesn't excite me too much. It really doesn't. Businesses are close to that road and granted it's only a conceptual, or a lot of things that are going to be really addressed, critical issues all are not really in front of us so we really don't 'know. Just a question Brad. Have you signed an agreement with the Ward's for the option on this property? Brad Johnson: We just represent them. We don't own it. We've been hired by them to develop it for them, and we have an agreement. Mayor Chmiel: You do have an agreement from them? Brad Johnson: Oh yeah. For about 3 years. 2? 3? Mayor Chmiel: Year and a half. Brad Johnson: They've been at all the meetings so far. They just couldn't be here tonight. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I guess I do have some concerns as to some of the things that Mark has brought out so I'm not going to reiterate on that. But I just feel that it's going to be taking away from the downtown and I do agree with the TIF portion on this as well. That I don't see any of those dollars allocating to this particular 32 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 project. So with that I would, well the other thing I xvas going to mention too was the fact that xvith the 212 corridor, Brad even mentioned before, there's going to be a lot of additional room for commercial and business kinds of facilities but that is going to be sort of centered just for specifics and not quite as large as what this concept. Kate Aanenson: Absolutely. There will be more support. You 'know the city's always had the concept of having a downtown and maintaining our commercial doxvntown. Is the reason why we didn't put commercial out at TH 5 and TH 41. We xvanted to keep a true downtown center. We grappled as a planning staff for months. Brad went to the Planning Commission just on a discussion workshop just to grapple with the same issues. You know if it was a perfect world, the rest of the downtown would be built and then we'd be building this. But it's a market economy, just like subdivisions. It'd be nice if all the subdivisions got built on roads that were already in place but we don't have control over ,,,,,hat people are willing to sell. I mean if it was our choice, maybe we'd like to wait for this property for a couple of years. But what our position finally came down to, it is contiguous to downtown. If there is to be any more commercial, it xvould make sense to make it on a contiguous piece and that's where it finally came to. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Councilman Berquist: Generally on a PUD, you're granting conceptual and you've got a preliminary that you're looking at? Kate Aanenson: Which will be another public hearing, correct before the Planning Commission and it will come back to the Council. Councilman Berquist' So in fact, if we grant conceptual approval, what are we truly saying? Kate Aanenson' You're giving them the marching orders to articulate the next level of development with all these conditions. So as Brad indicated, because of the EAW they have to do, it will probably be several months. I would guess, as he indicated, probably this summer before it goes back to the Planning Commission. They have to do a lot of xvork to identify all these issues. And what you're kind of doing is giving him the marching orders of what you want him to study to come back on the next level. Mayor Chmiel: And then if you don't like preliminary that comes back, then of course that's a decision of Council. Kate Aanenson: Add additional conditions at that time or xvhatever. Brad Johnson: Can I add one thing about...for the record. I am, one of the...rental housing business. Currently in the city of Chanhassen to develop a rental housing unit, it takes a subsidy of $5,000.00 per year per unit. And therefore we have to figure out, as part of this process, how we do that. And one of your work sessions on livable city, I'd like to have the opportunity to do that because that's why, you 'know when we're developers we like to develop something and get it all done with. Rental housing was such an easy thing...but it's a very, very difficult thing to do. So we're xvilling to mix it into this particular development. That's not our problem. To set aside 17 acres for rental housing, 10 acres for rental housing, I have no clue nor does the guy from the Met Council. We haven't figured out how to do it. I mean it's not a financial reality...The second thing is that any of the affordable housing for sale pays 5 times less taxes, 5 times less taxes than retail. We have plenty of 33 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 other places to put affordable for sale houses. I'd agree with you on affordable for rent is tougher~..taxes are a lot less so these are just issues we've got to just deal with. And we will do that... Councilman Senn: In terms of process, you know past experience has been I'd say a lot more uniformiB, on where things are going before you pass out of a concept process towards a preliminary process and I'm real uncomfortable with kind of saying go to the next step and spend all the money and stuff associated with that without really getting a little closer conformity in terms of where everybody sits on the conceptual part itself. Simply because, well for one reason I don't think it's fair to have somebody go spend the money to go to that next level of the process when I don't think there's. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah but that's their prerogative. Councilman Senn: No, I understand that. But at the same time we have to approve on the concept to do that. Mayor Chmiel: Right. Right. Okay. Is there a motion'?. Councilman Mason: Do we need a motion for this'?. Mayor Chmiel: I think you do. Right Roger? Roger Knutson: Correct, you do. Councilxvoman Dockendorf: Well I'd vote a motion, ~vith the understanding. In reading the conditions, adoption of this is not included. I mean we're not. Kate Aanenson: Well with the modifications of our conditions, such as. Councilman Senn: Which aren't defined. See that's part of the problem. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah. I mean I'm uncomfortable saying, I mean we're not saying this will be retail. This little chunk or are we? Kate Aanenson: In general you're giving approval of the approximate. Mayor Chmiel: That's part of the conceptual portion, yeah. Councilman Senn: Could I try one Colleen. Councilman Berquist: Well this gentleman used the word inkle, unless I'm mixing up presentations earlier. A motion definitely is more than an inkle. If you're looking for an inkle, I've got hearts. Councilman Senn: Well if Roger's saying we're under some type of a legal thing to act on the concept plan timewise or not.'? Roger Knutson: It's a practical matter now, but you are, under our ordinance, they don't go forward to the next step unless you give concept approval. 34 Cit3. r Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilman Senn: Well I mean if that needs clarification, I think in my mind our motion should be that they continue to work with staff in terms of developing or further refining a concept plan, given the comments of Council and stuff at this point so they can come in and do a little more discussion on. Councilman Mason: Pre-conceptual approval? Councilman Senn: Yeah. Pre-conceptual approval. Brad Johnson: Can I ask? Mayor Chmiel: No, just a minute. It's already at the Council so we'll finish discussion here first. Okay. Councilman Senn: I mean that's what I'd like to do as far as a motion like that. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I guess I too an uncomfortable saying this chunk xvill be this. This xvill be that. I think it needs to be re-worked. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Would you like to have Mark make a motion? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Please. Councilman Senn: I'd like to move then that the staff and the applicant further refine and lend better definition to a concept plan that is more in keeping with staff's recommendations and comments that they've received from Council tonight. And that they come back in for additional concept review at that time. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'll second that. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Motion on the floor with a second. Any other discussion? Councilman Berquist: Aren't we in fact tabling it? Kate Aanenson: That's what I was going to ask. Councilman Senn: Yeah, but it's providing I think the direction everybody's looking for, xvhich is the idea I thought. Councilman Berquist: I'd be in favor of tabling it, but I don't see any reason to vote on it. We're simply tabling it and tell them to come back with something else. Brad Johnson: Can ~ve just, let me tell what the response is. The next step is $200,000.00 from our point of view. To meet some of the questions that they have to do this study of the environmental and all the stuff that you guys. The reason you have this system is to give us, we write this down, as I understand this...because it's not a binding issue. Mayor Chmiel: Brad, your $200,000.00 is your investment that you put into it. Brad Johnson: No, it's the Ward's. 35 Cit3., Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Mayor Chmiel: Okay, their's. Whoever's. But still in my position I'm not sure this is the best thing for the city and the city comes first before a developer. Brad Johnson: I understand that but we're coming back with a preliminary plan that you can turn down, right? That's what we're asking. We'll come back with a far more detailed, work out a program with the staff in about 5 months because there's quite a few things we have to do. Just to get to the next step. We can't just answer the questions that he's asking. You know xvetland questions and things like that are all things that we'll do prior to the preliminary. You've set up an ordinance that says you walk your way through it. You give concept approval with conditions. You 'know that we do this, we do that and we do that and then we'll try to come back and fit that mold. That's what we're trying to do. If we don't, we don't. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I'm going to bring it back to Council. Thank you. We have a motion on the floor with a second. Additional discussion. Councilman Mason: I'd like to hear the motion again. Councilman Senn: You're going to make me repeat that again? Kate Aanenson: I wrote it down, would you like it? Councilman Senn: Did you write it down? Alright. Kate Aanenson: Further refine the concept plan including the staff's recommendations. And come back with a conceptual. Mayor Chmiel: And still come back with conceptual. Councilman Senn' You know let me explain my motion a little bit, maybe that would help. Mayor Chmiel: No, I understand what you're saying. Councilman Senn: I think there's a big disparity here between what's being proposed and what I'm hearing the staff say in their report and what I'm hearing out of various comments of Council so I mean to me that's not where you sit here and say, let's give it conceptual approval and go forward. I mean to me in the past when I've seen that happen, it usually ends up down the road like well gee, I thought you liked this type of thing, or where we were headed. You know why did you let us keep going? I think on this parcel we should make that loud and clear that we think it's very important, very pivotal. We want to spend some time on it. I think Council needs to talk about it. We haven't even had the opportunity to do that. Now we've got something in front of us. Now I think maybe we can spend some time hashing around between ourselves before we just kind of in public say, let's go ahead and say it's an okey dokey concept. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, I agree. Okay. Councilman Mason: I guess my question then, should it be tabled then as opposed to making this motion or is that essentially the same thing? Does it make any difference? 36 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilman Senn: It's essentially the same thing. I mean Mike I'm trying to say what I'm saying because I think it gives eveo, body a clear. r. Mayor Chmiel: I think there's direction that is being given here to proceed xvith it. By tabling, that direction would not be there. Other than what discussion was done here and what staff has picked up from our discussion. Okay. We have a motion on the floor with a second. Any other discussion? Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded that the Ci,ty Council direct staff and the applicant to further reffme the concept plan including the staff's recommendations and come back with a conceptual planned unit development for the Villages on the Ponds. All voted in favor, except Councilman Mason who abstained, and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF REAL ESTATE PURCHASE AGREEMENT~ OUTLOT A FOREST MEADOW~ JMS COMPANIES. Mayor Chmiel' ...I guess maybe what we're looking at is the recommendation that Council approve the attached real estate agreement between the City of Chanhassen and J/viS Companies. Said agreement describes the sale and purchase of Outlot A Forest Meadow in the amount of $129,220.00 at the $26,000.00 per acre. Don Ashworth: That's correct. Good staff report. Councilman Senn: Since that was his first staff report and he didn't screw it up, why don't we just motion to approve it and get on. Todd Gerhardt: ...changes. Councilman Berquist: Changes for? Councilman Senn: When I talked to Todd they really... Roger Knutson: There were two minor, wording changes. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah, I've got them. They were pretty minor... Roger Knutson: There's two minor changes and I guarantee you you'd have to read it very carefully to find them. Councilman Senn: How about if we move approval with Roger's two minor changes? Councilman Mason: Second. Mayor Chmiel: Moved and seconded. Any other discussion? Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the attached real estate agreement between the CiD' of Chanhassen and JMS Companies as amended by the Ci0' Attorney. Said agreement describes the sale and purchase of Outlot A, Forest Meadow in the amount of S129,220.00 ($26,000.00/acre). Ail voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. 37 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 CONSENT AGENDA: (F). ESTABLISHMENT OF LAKE ANN PARK pARKING FEE~ SECTION 14-59 OF CHANHASSEN CITY CODE. Councilman Senn: I pulled good old Lake Ann parking fees I guess for two reasons. One was, and I was hoping Todd was going to be here because I'd really like to understand the total reversal of the Park Commission from a unanimous vote one way to now a unanimous vote the other way,-and that wasn't reflected anywhere in the Minutes, at least that I got. At least as far as any detail discussion goes. Councilwoman Dockendorf: What item are you talking about? Kate Aanenson: Lake Ann. Councilxvoman Dockendorf: Oh, I'm on 10(a). I'm sorry. Mayor Chmiel: I guess part of their thoughts were on that is the fact that they did agree with Council, after they once thought about it and knowing that costs are going to continue to go up and escalate, with the maintenance of the park. That those costs somehow be picked up because of all the other cuts that we're taking from the State and also Fed's and they'll continue to keep coming down and keep pouring back down to the cities. So I guess maybe that was part of their decision making. Councilman Senn: Well, I 'knoxv we went to the abbreviated Minutes but it was a real handicap to understand the issue. Councilman Berquist: I was there. If you xvant to hear my take on it. Councilman Senn: Well of course I 'know what side you're coming from but go ahead. Councilman Berquist: Well, alright then the heck with you. I was there for something else but I ended up talking about this, since I was the one that instigated them re-looking at it. And frankly there was very little discussion. There ,,vas very, I mean the impression I got is that at some point the horse must have been beaten to death already because there was no new dialogue about what can we do. How can we do things differently. So either that happened or they simply made it easy on themselves. I have to believe it was the former as opposed to the later. That was it in a nutshell. Councilman Senn: I mean that's just weird because I mean the previous motion they passed on saying to get rid of them ,,vas very detailed. Had all kinds of discussion in the Minutes and they justified their own position ten times over so I guess I was really at a loss as to what was causing the change. I just, I mean I don't think there's just a black and a white here. I mean I don't think there's either you charge fees or you don't charge fees. I think there's a lot of middle ground to look at and I was kind of hoping they would look at some of the middle ground and say, well maybe we don't have to charge residents but there's other ways to charge fees to get the same revenue off the park. I don't 'know. I mean they -know that better as a park commission than we do but it seems to me there xvas absolutely none of them. Councilman Berquist: Well I made a short dissertation on my feeling on user fees and I obviously just snowballed them. 38 Ciu' Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Councilman Senn: Which there should be user fees on all city parks. Councihnan Berquist: I just made, yeah that's pretty much it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there a motion? Councilman Mason: I will move approval of establishment of Lake Ann Park parking fees, Section 14-59 of Chanhassen City Code. Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second? Councilman Berquist: Well I'll second but I want to... Mayor Chmiel: Okay, second with discussion. Go ahead. Councilman Berquist: Discussion. I still am not, I mean obviously this was just a, let's go back to the way it was and that's... I don't 'know what the alternatives are. I tried to think of a couple as I read the report very quickly. I didn't come up with any that I really liked but there has got to be another method by which to do this. And the wheel does not have to be reinvented. I think Todd or someone can simply do some research into how these sorts of things are handled on a municipal basis in some other municipalities. Someone has got to have come up with a viable system of generating user fees through the park system that works. I don't 'knoxv who. Councilman Senn: I think there's other options Steve, that's what I said before when we had this last time. Councilman Berquist: Well that's what I thought I was doing. Councilman Senn: Well but I think they got lost. I mean we talked a little bit before even about some of the other ones and I really thought that that would kind of. Councilman Berquist: I'll tell you xvhat. We talked about parking meters. Now that's not viable in my opinion. Councilman Senn: No. Yeah, parking was, charging for parking was one of the other basis to do it but I mean there ~vas other basis with group fees and user fees as it related to certain facilities. I mean there were all kinds of things bantered about when we talked about it. Councilwoman Dockendorf: And I think everything's been beaten to death to be honest. I mean you've got to look at Lake Ann as aveU' unique insofar as it is a regional draw and yet it's a city park and so I don't know if we can look at apples to apples comparison with other parks in the city and with other municipalities but you know this issue comes up annually and it is discussed annually and I think a lot of the alternatives have been considered and a better way has not been found. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, there is a motion on the floor with a second. Resolution #95-128: Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to establish the Lake Ann Park Parldng Fees, Section 14-59 of the Chanhassen CiD' Code per staff's recommendations. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. 39 City Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: GALPIN BOULEVARD/COULTER BOUI,EVARD/TH 5 INTERSECTION IMPROVEMENTS~ PROJECT NO. 93-26A. Charles Folch: Thank you Mr. Mayor, members of Council. Providing information. No action is really necessary on this item. I put it on here to allow the opportunity for discussion. If there were additional questions or if we didn't provide enough information or the type of information that was desired. So again no action is necessary but I'm certainly able to take any questions you may have regarding the issue. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Are there any specific questions in relationship to the concerns that you had Steve? Councilman Berquist: Just thanks for working it up, number one. I know it was a lot of work that went into this. And the primary reason for my asking for it be xvorked up was so that we could try and establish some consistent method of providing summary for these types of items. I guess my biggest question concerns exactly that. Can we use this, I don't care about time sheets. I don't care about the rest of the minutia but this sort of a summary, feasibility, plan and spec estimate, contract award and how the final costs are affected. Big picture sorts of things rather than approve this, which is what I've seen and that gets my goat. 60 grand to approve this and...that's my comments. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Anyone else? If none, we've got that one. Motion for adjournment. Councilman Senn: Don, question quickly... What's the deal with that, or Don or Don, one of you. What's the deal with this new cable thing? That everybody's getting in the mail. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Everybody? Councilman Seim: Well those who have cable. They're changing. Mayor Chmiel: They're putting the additional. Councilman Senn: Easiest way to say this nov,' is before in your rate, repairs of the cable wire was part of what you paid for and they took care of it. More or less you didn't have to pay for a service call if they came out. Okay. Now they are saying that the rules have changed and they are now going to charge you at $19.53 an hour for service calls, but if you sign up now you can sign up for $.89 per month kind of like on a Minnegasco, save yourself money type of thing but the thing I don't understand is, then why isn't there an adjustment in the monthly cable rates, you know and why aren't xve dealing, or I mean have we dealt with or should we be dealing with this? I mean we're supposedly the cable commission or have representation on it, how do these things just kind of keep happening and go out in the mail and that's kind of just the way it goes. It seems like we have very little to do ~vith running the cable system. Don Ashxvorth: I have not seen that one so I will check with both Triax and our... Councilman Senn: Well I got two or three of them stated all different ways. 40 Cit3..' Council Meeting - November 27, 1995 Mayor Chmiel: That was only for inside. If there's something on the outside, that's their problem.- You don't have to pay for that. Councilman Senn: Right, no. Mayor Chmiel: But if it's something within your own home, then you have to. Councilman Mason: Ma Bell did the same thing. Councilman Senn: Which previously you didn't have to pay for though. But when Ma Bell's change came through with the deregulation and all that, there ,,vas also a change in the fee structure. Okay. There's no change in the fee structure here. Why doesn't that surprise me but. Mayor Chmiel: Maybe you can check into that. Don Ashworth: I will. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 41