CC Minutes 1994 05 09CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
MAY 9, 1994
Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m. The meeting was opened with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Wing, Councilwoman Dockendorf,
Councilman Mason and Councilman Senn
STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Todd Gerhardt, Charles Folch, and Todd Hoffman
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the agenda with
the following additions: Mayor Chmiel wanted to add a presentation by Susan Hurm and Natalie Rossini under
Visitor Presentations and Don Ashworth wanted to discuss the Debt Study under Administration Presentations.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: PROCLAIM MAY 15-21, 1994 AS NATIONAL PUBLIC WORKS
WEEK.
Mayor Chmiel: I'll go through this just rather quickly. This is a proclamation establishing May 15th thru May
21st, 1994 as National Public Works Week. Whereas, the public works services provided in our community ate
an integral part of our citizens' everyday lives; and Whereas, the support of understanding and informed citizenry
is vital to the efficient operation of the public works systems and programs such as water, sewer, streets, and
highways, public buildings, solid waste collection and snow removal; and Whereas, the health, safety and
comfort of this community greatly depends on these facilities and services; and Whereas, the quality and
effectiveness of these facilities as well as their planning, design and construction, is vitally dependent upon the
efforts and skill of public works officials; and Whereas, the efficiency of the qualified and dedicated personnel
who staff public works departments is materially influenced by the people's attitude and understanding of the
importance of work they perform; Now Therefore I, Donald J. Chmiel, Mayor of the City of Chanhassen do
hereby proclaim this week, May 15th thru May 21st, 1994 as NATIONAL PUBLIC WORKS WEEK in the
City of Chanhassen. I call upon all citizens and civic organizations to acquaint themselves with the issues
involved in providing our public works and to recognize the contributions to which public works officials make
every day to our health, safety, comfort and quality of life. Given under my hand and Seal of the City of
Chanhassen this 9th day of May, 1994. Is there a motion?
Councilman Wing: Absolutely. Thank you. So moved.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Moved and seconded. I think that was a well read verse. And I think really, what I read I
really feel strong about because I think people within public safety are really, or excuse me. Within public
works are doing things as they normally do every day of their lives and do a good job at what they do. And I'm
sort of proud as to how they really function within the city.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Definitely unsong heroes.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Resolution 094-49: Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to proclaim the week
of May 15.21, 1994 as National Public Works Week in the city of Chanhassen. Ail voted in favor and the
motion carried unanimously.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the
following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
a. Approve Plans and Specifications for 1994 Street Repair Program; Authorize Advertising for Bids, Project
No. 94-8.
e. Resolution S94.50: Receive Feasibility Report on Lyman Boulevard Street Reconstruction and Lake Riley
Area Trunk Utility Improvements in Sections 13 and 24; Call Public Hearing, Project 93-32.
g. Resolution 894.51: Approve Property Transfer from the City of Chanhassen to Nordictmck, Inc.
h. Approve Water Obstacle Permit, Minnewashta Ski Club.
i. Amendment to City Code Regarding a Requirement to Submit Computer Aided Graphics or Models for Site
Plan Reviews and Subdivisions, Final Reading.
j. Amendment to City Code Regarding Landscaping and Tree Preservation, Final Reading; and Summary
Ordinance for Publication Purposes.
k. Approval of Accounts.
1. City Council Minutes dated April 25, 1994
Planning Commission Minutes dated April 20, 1994
Joint Public Safety Commission and City Council Minutes dated April 14, 1994
m. City Code Amendment Regarding Discharges into the Sanitary Sewer System, Final Reading.
n. Approve Summary Ordinance for Publication Purposes, Wetland Protection Ordinance.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
(Item 3(p) will be discussed at the end of the agenda.)
C. THE MEADOWS AT LONG ACRES, LUNDGREN BROTHERS.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of Council. This applicant requested that this item be pulled off the
Consent Agenda for review and corrections that have come out today. Unfortunately it wasn't on time.,.changed
highlighted. Basically these changes and the recommendations of approval...for this item. Just briefly going
through in the subdivision approval. Condition number 1. Second sentence of that paragraph should read,
variances should be granted on Lot 6, Block 1; Lots 1, 8, 13, Block 2; Lot 5, Block 3; Lots 5-7, Block 4; and
Lots 1-3, Block 5, which is a drainage entry to the wetland. Condition number 4 shall read, a pool located on
Lot 4, Block 2 shall be removed in conjunction with the site grading. On the next page, condition number 8.
8(a) shall read, full park and wail fees... Condition number 16. First sentence shall read, drainage and
conservation easements shall be dedicated...except for Outlot G, H, K and L. Basically the last change occurs
O11.
Mayor Chmiel: How about 22 Charles?
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Charles Folch: 22 shall be kept. There was a question, actually there was a question by the developer as to
whether that was necessary or not...
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, but (c) you have on here rather than Block 1 you have Block 3 to nm parallel. That is
22 (a).
Charles Folch: That's correct That acplally, that amendment to the variance for Lot 3 is actually covered under
that £trst condition...
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. With those numbers, okay.
Charles Folch: And then the final item is item 22(b). That condition can be deleted which basically provides
25%...and those are the changes for...
Mayor Chmiel: That's fine. I had one other question regarding that. From the proposed location of the home
that's going on the properties, what is the setback from the home to the slxeet? What is the distance involved?
Charles Folch: From the existing home?
Mayor Chmiel: From the pads to be put on those, each of those lots.
Charles Folch: Typically.
Mayor Chmiel: I went through that and I did not see from where the pad would be to what the depth is of that,
from the driveway.
Charles Folch'. Terry, are those 30 feet setbacks? A typical housepad to the rear yard.
Terry Forbord: Terry Forbord with Lundgren Brothers. There are a number of, part of the approval of the PUD,
there are a number of lots that staff recommended and were approved by the City Council in order to save trees
to keep the house pads a certain distance from the wetland. That they reduce the front yard setbacks. There
were a few of those...I don't know exactly how many...
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Alright. Any questions? Can I have a motion for item 3(c), items 1 and 2.
Councilman Mason: So moved.
Councilman Senn: Second.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Senn seconded to approve the Final Plat, Development Contract
and Plans and Specifications for the Meadows at Long Acres by Lundgren Bros Construction as amended
by the City Engineer. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Mayor Chmiel: Let's txy to carry item (f) and (o) onto the balance of our Council Presentation and we'll cover
them at that time. With that I'll move the agenda along.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: I did have Sue on the agenda at this time. Also Natalie for your proposal or your presentation
that you're going to make this evening and so if you'd like to come up now and do that, I would greatly
appreciate it.
Natalie Rossini: Well I come to you for the last time as a Chair for the Youth Commission. I graduate this
June and I'm very excited. Counting the days down. I wanted to remind the Council about, that there will be
an opening after this month and applications can be dropped off at the Chaska High School, There's a pink
form in the back...so our commission can continue with...Also in the packet is a gold or a yellowish packet.
That will give you the responsibilities of the Youth Commission members. A few months ago at one of our
meetings we split up into groups and brainstormed what we thought...youth commission member, what they
were. As you can see...advocating for youth. Serving as a key communicator in our community. A link
between communities and the school district and also along with that a link between the youth and adults and so
on. On the next page it talks about...and local board and Council. And this is Todd Hoffman's job. All these
responsibilities on the committee. Reading the Youth Commission Minutes. All the other material. And
keeping yourself informed. Contacting your student or adult representatives if you have any questions...
arrangements for the youth commission representatives...in February, May and August and November. Those axe
the months that we set up...in our By-laws each member's supposed to make quarterly udpates during the year.
And also...county activities and considering all...The third page is...responsibilities off.numbers of the youth
commission and that includes all the City Council, County Commissioners, School Board members and so on.
We just, instead of listing all of them, we just call them all agency numbers. And reading Minutes and agendas
and we put this as number one because we look to you as being a vital link to our youth commission and each
of you having a responsibility towards the youth commission as we do towards you. So if you take the time to
read through those, we would really appreciate it.
Sue Hurm: In your packet you have a new Youth Commission Directory and one of our goals when we came
before you last time was to have an opportunity for youth in Chanhassen. I think they've done a nice job.
Gotten more in there. We'd still like to see more of that done but there will be opportunities for youth in
Chanhassen...we had these directories presented, staff had presented it to St. Hubert's at Chaska Middle School
and at the High School so they thought...if they are looking for summer opportunities to volunteer, it's available
in the school. The next thing we tried to do as far as accomplishing more awareness of what the youth
commission is, is we have designed a T-shirt and would like commission members to certainly buy a T-shirt
when they're all made so you can also help us publicize the youth commission. The picture of what it would
look like is in your packet. It has each one of the city logos. The District #112 and our logo on the bottom. It
will be done black lettering for the youth commission and the logo around the outside will be a teal on white.
Natalie Rossini: You haven't changed the logo, have you?
Sue Hurm: Yeah, we had to check that because we were going to do this.
Natalie Rossini: The City of Carver changed their logo. That's why we would have had the T-shirts done to
present to you to show you.
Sue Hurm: And really twist your ann.
Mayor Chmiel: Watch out. This gets televised in Carver.
Sue Hurm: So you need to let us know if you're going to change your logo, So that's.,.and also provide a
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
certain number in order to get them so we'll be pushing for those. A banner. We talked about Values Week
and they were involved in Values Week and we felt it would be real appropriate to have a banner displayed in
the City Halls which would have again the logos across the top which is in your packet. Community Values and
we need 8 values that we are trying to encourage in the city. The youth commission is coming up with the
funds to cover them. So we'd like you to have it displayed in a permanent place in the City Hall...But we felt
that, we felt very strongly that it is important for the youth commission to...
Natalie Rossini: Okay. I might as well continue with telling you about our activities that we've been doing
since Christmas. Around Chrislmas time we promoted the holidays, or we organized the holiday gift project, and
I don't know if you read about that in the paper but the Youth Commission, along with Student Council put this
on where we had a tree displayed inside the school and we had people donate money. When they walked
through the school, people, a student would...dress up as Santa Claus and stuff and then we also had people
donating gifts and we had about 5 big boxes full of gifts and items that we donated to the...and then we also
collected $550.00 to go out and buy more items. So that was really neat. The turn out that we had for our first
year of the Holiday Gift Project. We also participated in the Super Cities Walk for MS and that was last month
and we had about 25 to 30 students that came out... We also did the Walktobeffest last October and we had a
smaller number so it's beginning to grow. And then we also took some students down to some churches down
in St. Paul with our...project and I think I explained that before. We just had it last fall where we go down there
and help serve the hungry in some churches down in St. Paul. And you can talk with the people and eat with
them so it's a great learning experience. We also helped out with the Easter Egg Hunt here in Chanhassen and
that was a lot of fun. I know all the students who, even the people that had dressed up as the Bunny Rabbit,
they really enjoyed the time there. And then we also had Earth Week in April and this is the first time that the
Youth Commission or anybody has promoted Earth Week. Just, you know students who had organized it and we
had demonstrations about how much trash we use and we also had a promoting car pooling day. We had posters
and an essay contest so that was...The other things that we've done on the volunteering side is finding volunteers
for Parents Anonymous meetings and also finding volunteers to help out and chaperone the Middle School
Dances put on by I think the Park and Rec Department. So Susan wants to t__alk about our future activities.
Sue Hurm: One of the things that the youth commission will be working on next is there's a shelter down in the
Minneapolis area where the youth commission will go down and provide ice cream and story time for some of
the children that are down there. That's one of the next things that we'll be working on. Jeannie Strauss and I
will be working on setting up...at the High School in which we would like local government people and the
Senators and Congressmen and anyone else we can think of, to come and listen to the students about what their
concerns are in the community. We felt that we needed to find out what their needs were and so we're going to
try and get it for...we'll let you know because we'd like some people from Chanhassen to show up. It will be
during the day. Next, the last thing that I'm aware of is there's a...And I guess the other thing that I needed to
do is I needed to thank Natalie because she's done an outstanding job and she was recognized during Values
Week as an Outstanding Youth. Or as one of the Outstanding Youth and received a bond, which was kind of
nice because she's done a lot of work and hopefully it will look good on her resume too for school and
everything else but she has put a lot of her heart and soul in it and we're going to miss her...
Natalie Rossini: Thank you. The youth commission has brought me so far. It happened to be a fluke when one
of my friends asked me to be on it so I've been very fortunate and have met a lot of influential people and
learned about communication skills. But besides Outstanding Youth Award, I also leave with a sense of
accomplishment because I helped the youth commission or was part of serving a purpose of the link between the
youth and adults in the community and to actually accomplish some goal that was set up...gives you a good
feeling. I don't know how to explain it but anyway, I do hope that this fall, when we have the Spaghetti Dinner,
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
or the youth commission has it's Spaghetti Dinner, that everyone will attend. I don't know I have all these
articles that just that are proof of how much publicity that we've gotten this year and how it's going to grow.
Hopefully grow in the coming year and so I want to thank you for listening to all our little updates. And I don't
know, I guess that's about it. And I just hope that you guys will also be encouraged to spend more time looking
at the youth commission and becoming more involved.
Mayor Chmiel: Great. Natalie, on behalf of City Council, it's always a pleasure to see your smiling face here.
And knowingly what you've done, it really is youth of the up and coming, well the up and coming through the
process that you're going through and it really is something to see when an individual who will take their time
such as you have done, many, many times over and I've seen you at many of the functions that I've attended
because of the city. And you're always bubbly, effervescent and don't ever lose it. Keep that going.
Natalie Rossini: Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: And we applaud you for that. Thank you. Okay. It's always neat to see young people within
the community who really care and I think that's the name of the game. We'll move on to item number 4.
HEALTH HOUSE '94, AMERICAN LUNG ASSOCIATION.
Mayor Chmiel: Is Diane here?
Jerry Orr: No.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I'll let you come forward and introduce yourself.
Jerry Orr: I'm Jerry Orr with the American Lung Association of Hennepin County. With me is Jeff
Schoenwetter from JMS Homes and we simply wanted to drop by this evening to thank you for the warm
welcome that the American Lung Association received for it's Health House project. It was a project that we
initiated for the first time last year. It has grown to the point where there are five health houses being built by
American Lung Associations around the country. In North Caroline, Michigan, in New York, and Wisconsin and
the National Demonstration Site is the one here in Chanhassen. The project is about a whole series of healthy
choices and the first choice is in terms of what community are you going to build it in and we chose your's. We
also chose Jeff's Royal Estates project and Jeff is our builder who helped us develop our project last year. The
health house is simply about again those choices that it takes to make a house as healthy as possible and also
one that's healthy for the planet in terms of the kinds of materials that are used and put in it. As the National
Demonstration Site, you folks will be getting some attention in local and national m~ia. Our local media
sponsor is KARE 11 and our national sponsors will be touting the national site, which is the Chanhassen site, as
they put together advertisements and promotions that will.appear in the state...national housing, Health House
Project. So we wanted to come by and say thank you. We brought a shovel here for the Chanhassen Archives
for the site here. Jeff, would you like to make a comment?
Jeff Schoenwetter. I'll be brieL I know you have other business. Mayor Chmiel, ladies and gentlemen of the
Council. JMS Homes is just proud to be here in Chanhassen and building. We're grateful for the opportunity to
help out the American Lung Association. We had a great project last year. It's growing to national recognition
now and we hope it continues to grow and we thank you for being here for us.
Mayor Chmiel: It's neat to know that this kind of a home is going to be built within our community as well.
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
and Conditional Use Permit for the Press and Kindercare until the Planning Commission forwards their
recommendations. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who did not vote, and the motion carried.
APPOINTMENT TO THE HOUSING AND REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY, MAYOR CHMIEL.
Mayor Chmiel: I have had some discussion with Mr. Bohn, with Jim Bohn just this past week. I've had one
discussion with one of the Councilmembers. But as yet I have not had any other discussions only because it
curtails the ability for me to talk to any more than one person at one given time on a given Council agenda
project. And so I thought what I wanted to do is to sort of get the feel from Council. One of the things that I
look at strongly too is what I have seen is to have 3 members of the citizens on the HRA with 2 of the Council
members overlooking. The proposal I've never really thought about it being a complete responsibility of the
Council to have the I-IRA as well. I think we need the outside input for some of these things and some of these
other people are well qualified within areas that we may or may not be. But some of the thoughts that I had and
one of the things ! mentioned to Mr. Bohn also, is that I would get back to him and inform him prior to any
decisions being made. In my mind I do not have a decision and my suggestion would be to table it but I would
like some discussion on it.
Councilman Wing: I move tabling so you can get your act together. It's your decision and I think you can
show whatever leadership you want to. Whatever...
Mayor Chmiel: Well I guess I wanted some additional input. There's been some discussions that the Council
would like to probably take over or control the lIRA. I don't have that feeling. I think at one time or another,
if we have two people on there, that's the way I would like to see it go. I don't think we want to raikoad things
through, as most people could look at it is as. And I just think there should be some, I'd like to get some
additional feelings. And you're fight, I will act on it until I get some back feed from some of the people sitting
here.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I do have some comments. My frustration has been the left hand not knowing
what the right hand is doing and I think, which really presents to me two options. Either the Council is the
HRA or we set up some procedure for informing each other. I think moving 3 people to the HRA, 3 Council
members to the lIRA is a waste of time. I know I wouldn't want to sit on the HRA unless the HRA was the
Council, or vica versa. So for me I don't know whether we need to, I'm not speaking coherently am I?
Councilman Wing: Better than I can do.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: It's two options. Either the Council becomes the HRA or we open the lines of
communication a little better and provide for every Council meeting to have one of the members,
Councilmembers on the HRA update the rest of the Council.
Mayor Chmiel: I think that's where it should really come from is some additional communication. It should be
brought back and I think not only that but other areas that ff some of the Council members sit on any respective
other commissions.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with you. My other comment would be, and I
have the same frustration with the Board of Adjustments. Is that we're seeing the same people term after term
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: That's only because they're proficient at it.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: So absolutely. But I think there comes a point in time where we just need new
blood.
Mayor Chmiel: Well I don't disagree with you with that Colleen. Well maybe I do to a certain point. When
you have people who understand what the ordinances are and what the requirements are. To put someone new
in who doesn't quite know exactly what's going on unless they may be aware from being in a former position as
such.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well you can always be brought up to speed.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah right. But there's quite a bit of knowledge that it takes for those people to have in order
to do what they're really doing. But that has a tot of pros and cons to the issue as well. And I do believe when
we made a reappointment, we did that reappointment accordingly by Council so.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Oh absolutely, yeah. I wouldn't disagree with that.
Mayor Chmiel: So we have to talk out of both sides as well. Michael.
Councilman Mason: Being on HRA, well. I'll maintain my position all along is I think I'm here because I'm
trying to do what I think is best for the city. The comment was made by Councilwoman Dockendorf about
length of terms and she related Board of Adjustment to HRA. Right?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes.
Councilman Mason: And I guess I see some major differences between those two. I mean obviously Board of
Adjustments is a Board that decides whether variances should or shouldn't be approved and I-IRA has a much
different function in the city. It's to continue the city's growth, particular the downtown area. And I, while as
I'll go political here and say I'm not in favor of term limits on a national level. That has nothing to do with this
but I do think that there is something to be said for getting a different outlook from time to time. For getting
new and fresh viewpoints from time to time. Now I'm not knocking, well. I think that's something that needs
to be looked at~ However I'm not the one that does the appointing or the reappointing either. I will say, I do
agree with the Mayor when he says that your comment about having 3 Council members on HRA. I do think
it's important to get a "civilian" outlook on things if you will and I do agree with that. I would not like to see a
majority of I-IRA be Council. But maybe it's time to look at some fresh things but again, that's not my decision.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you. Mark.
Councilman Senn: Well I guess I'll enter the well known minority viewpoint. To me there's major delineations
between the Board of Zoning and HRA. In the f~t place, Board of Appeals, f~t of all it's appointed every
year. So I mean the option's there to change people or whatever every year. If the Council chooses not to do
that, I guess that's up to the Council. The other thing is, they conlrol variances and if an applicant isn't happy
with what they do, they have a right to appeal it to the Council who are their elected representatives. And they
can rely back on their elected representatives to make a fmal decision. And then they can also judge them based
on that. I think that's how the process is supposed to work. They also don't control any money. The HRA I
believe controls more money in the city than the City Council does. And I've always felt strongly and I still do
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
But there's just one little item and I think Jerry mentioned it to me when we were out there for the ground
breaking. Is the mere fact that just between the studs of the walls that are going up, each of those are all
vaccumed out. No sawdust remains within. Only for the mere fact that any moisture that could get in there
could cause some other given problems and probably for those who have asthma or whatever, and that just
builds up a mold consequently and that mold no longer would exist within this specific home. And I think it's a
good idea just to probably have all builders start looking at that because many problems exist within our
community. Within our own personal lives and I too have a granddaughter who's a real severe asthmatic and
from that standpoint I know how clean things really have to be and I appreciate the fact that we have this within
our community, so thank you.
Councilman Wing: Can you make sure that Harold doesn't get a hold of that shovel.
Mayor Chmiel: It will go on the wall. Thanks again.
PRELIMINARY PLAT TO REPLAT LOT 1, BLOCK 1 AND OUTLOT B, PARK ONE 2ND ADDITION
INTO LOTS 1, 2 AND 3, PARK ONE THIRD ADDITION; A SITE PLAN FOR 54,720 SQ. FT.
WAREHOUSE EXPANSION FOR THE PRESS AND A 10,315 SO. FI'. KINDERCARE FACILITY;
AND A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR A LICENSED DAYCARE CENTER IN AN IOP,
INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK DISTRICT; LOCATED AT THE NORTHWEST QUADRANT OF DELL
ROAD AND STATE HIGHWAY 5, MARCUS CORPORATION.
Mayor Chmiel: I think that through much of what we have gone through, with this, there has been a request that
this item again be tabled. And if there's any discussion by Council, I would like that to start at this time.
Councilman Senn: I'd like to step down but I'd also like an opportunity to talk with you about it.
Mayor ChmieI: Thank you. I was hopeful that you'd say that and remove yourserf at this lime.
Mark Senn: Maybe to start with I'd like to just raise a few points of clarification. Last Council meeting one of
the Council people referred to me I think personally over half a dozen times as it relates to this project so I
figure I may as well at least get up and talk to you about it. The application on this project was made by
Marcus Corporation, which is one of over half a dozen companies, I'll say small but modest companies that I
own and Marcus Corporation submiued that application on behalf of a 12 year client. Marcus Corporation, nor
myself, has never intended to have, nor will have any interest in this project, ownership or otherwise. It's
simply following through as it would with this plan on any other project anywhere really in the State of
Minnesota. Up front, real early on my only real involvement was to sit down with staff. I talked to Paul Krauss
and really asked him to just sit down and be overly critical of this project. The reason I asked that was because
I knew regardless of whether I was going to be directly involved or not, it was going to be perceived as
something that had something to do with me so I told Paul specifically that I wanted him and staff to be overly
critical of the project. We sat down and had a pre 'hlninary review on a concept basis and staff was very
positive. In fact Mr. Krauss was probably the most positive. Beyond that I have intentio.nally really stayed out
of this process all through it and as I've done before, and also tonight, I've removed myself from any votes as
was my intention. I think I now no longer have any other choice I guess other than to sit in the background
and do nothing because I think it's really going to perform a disservice to the community if we do. Both of our
clients at this point have assumed that tonight would be basically a repeat of last Council meeting, which was
basically telling them that, given the identical action to tabling and it was basically an off deal so to speak. I
can't really blame them for their perception but again I think it would really be bad for our community if we
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
did. What I'd like to do is just give you a little bit of history so you understand where this came from.
Kindercare, through Mr. Richard Nordlin, who is a client of our's, came to us and told us that basically they had
an intention to do some fairly substantial expansion hem in the metropolitan area. In fact they talked about
potentially 10 additional sites. They also gave us a priority list of those sites. Quite frankly Chanhassen was
way down the list on that priority list of sites. I knew whatever, I'm going to say pressure I could convince
them to move it up to the top of the site because both through personal experience and from what I've heard
from a lot of other people, we have an acute shortage of daycare in Chanhassen. My efforts were successful and
we then undertook the process of identifying a site and Kindercare, like most other, national companies like
itself, has site criteria and we evaluated those criteria and went through them to basically...sites, Kindercare
traditionally wants to be on sites that basically transition between residential and commercial or industrial areas.
It's basically a traffic pattern and they want to be part of this basically puts them in the position basically to
service the residential areas but also service the residential areas on the way in terms of work. We looked at a
lot of different sites in Chanhassen. There's one real problem also already occurring in Chanhassen as it relates
to daycare and that's land costs. As you all know from numerous other things, land costs in Chanhassen have
gone up quite rapidly. Daycare unfortunately is one of those things that cannot afford high land costs, In fact
traditionally you'll find land costs of less than $3.00 a square foot going into a daycare in terms of the land.
And that's one of the reasons why the site basically at Dell Road was identified because it was an industrially
zoned site. Industrially zoned property of course is considerably cheaper than commercially zoned property. By
the way, the Press at that time did not have it's property for sale. I know there's a sign out there and a lot of
people think it is for sale but that property that's for sale happens to be a little parcel that's stuck way back in
back. Behind the Press that Frank Beddor still owns. It has nothing to do with that comer parcel. That comer
parcel is basically extending all the way back to 79th is effectively not been for sale and has been held for
expansion by the Press. Also at that time the Press really had no intentions of expansion, or at least no
intentions that were very far along. They had contemplated that they had started to look at it but their expansion
needs basically were being met by storage needs being accommodated on the site in a number of semi trailers
that were basically just being put on site and counted as additk~nal storage that was necessary. When I
originally talked to Paul about it, that was one of the reasons why I thought there was an ideal marriage here.
The ideal marriage was to possibly give the Press the basis to proceed earlier with their expansion and not
function on that type of a basis, which they're allowed to do. And secondly, to create a daycare that would
basically help meet some of those daycare needs in Chanhassen. From there we've gone through you know a
very long process. We've been at this basically since about February. The process itself has become in effect
quite arduous and at this point you know we really need to I guess get it back in line or go on with other things
and I guess that's what I'm here to request that you do tonight. Essentially the proposals here are not able or
you're unable to separate this proposals. It took a lot of convincing to convince the Press to sell off this piece of
property and their Board authorized it only on the basis that the parcel be sold to Kindercare and basically that
income be used in effect to turn around and fund the expansion. Or to. help fund the expansion. So basically
one can't go ahead without the other. Kindercare on the other hand is on a tixne line which basically is
something that affects...so you know we've reached basically the point of no return because ff we can't get this
thing authorized basically we're past that point and after we pass that point, there will be no daycare like this in
Chanhassen until, I guess that would put it into say approximately late 1995. A little over a year from now.
Well over a year. A year and a half. The facility was designed and the plans were made up very carefully. My
instructions to my people as well as our consultants were that it meet every city requirement as well as a number
of city requirements that technically didn't even exist. But a lot of them were in draft form. And basically as I
understood it, and as I also understood it from staff in their review, the plans did precisely that, Beyond that I'm
not quite sure where the process has gone awry except basically I thought the Council made a fairly strong
statement last time sending it back to the Planning Commission that it should act on it one way or the other, and
that's what was requested. But once again it was tabled, which basically just holds it in limbo. Unfortunately
8
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
that limbo period now puts it past the point of no return in terms of any action at all. And I really hate to see
that happen. And the reason again I really hate to see that happen is, I'd really like to see something like the
Press be able to expand in Chanhassen. They've been here a long time and I think we all know they're very
responsible corporate citizens. I also want to see them be able to create new jobs which is good for us and pay
more taxes, which is good for us. I also want to see Kindercare come in because we badly need daycare. My
understanding, from some information I got from the county last week is, I think there's something like, I think I
heard a number like 190 people who's daycare needs are not being met fight now in Chanimssen. It's simply
not available to them and most of that's infants. And Kindercare, by the way, is one of the few prodders that
offers that service so. I guess given where this all sits fight now, where it's at and I guess Roger will have to
speak to the legalities of it one way or another but I would simply implore the Council to act on it and push it
forward because if it feels they can't do so tonight, my fear is basically just that. It's basically a dead deal and I
don't think that is productive to the City of Chanhassen or beneficial to it. If I could see something in here that
I felt was really detrimental, I think I would feel differently but I really don't see anything in here that I feel is
detrimental and I think that is supported very sl~ongly in staff's recommendations. Because there was, all the
way through this project, never one single negative recommendation from staff on this project. And again, it met
or exceeded all the criteria. It gets real frustrating when you go through a process and you meet or exceed the
criteria but every time you go to a meeting, there's new criteria. But that's really kind of water over the dam at
this point. So I'd just like to ask the Council to take the bull by the horns so to speak and take an action on it
one way or another. Again, there's no benefit to me one way or the other. I think it will help the clients but it
will also help Chanhassen and I would really like to see it go forward and I'd like to see it go forward...thank
you.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thanks Mark. One of the problems that we have, or at least I have fight now. The
Minutes of that meeting are still not available at this time for us and it has been recommended back by Planning
Commission to make that recommenO_ation to table this. Maybe we have a couple of members from Planning
Commission here this evening. Maybe you'd like to address some of those things at this particular time. The
Minutes to me are sort of essential to know exactly what was done and what was said.
Nancy Mancino: You didn't get them with your report?
Mayor Chmiel: No we don't.
Matt Ledvinax Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. Matt Ledvina with the Harming Commission. One of the
most important things that we had difficulty, as far as the application was concerned, was the change in the
access for the site plan and we did not have any opinion from the city staff as to whether that access would be
acceptable to the turning movements in and out of the facility so there were also some other items associated
with the application that were not changed based on previous comments and requests. Based on that, we felt at
that time we couldn't act on the materials in front of us so.
Nancy Mancino: And I'd like to add to that and that is that we did feel from the very beginning that the Press
and the expansion that they asked for we wanted to let go ahead because we wanted in the interest of developers
to make sure that they could go ahead with,amd we gave them a very firm recommendation and...The
Kindercare we still had some questions about circulation and...to the developer and to the city saying that the
access into Kindercare off of Dell Road needed to be changed, needed to be moved further north and that Dave
Hempel of city staff had not had enough time to review that and make a recommendation to the Planning
Commission. So it is now outside with a consultant being looked at as far as the circulm_ion problems that we
saw. They had to do with the entire Kindercare site. We didn't feel it was fight to go ahead without that
9
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
information. We also received the night of the Planning Commission information on electrical power lines and
what kind of, what they give off and whether it's healthier or unhealthy and we felt that we also wanted to read
that information and have that background...so that's why we decided to again table that once again. We are
also, according to the lawyer, within the legal time line for a conditional use permit. We have 60 days, and I'm
sure the developer knows that, in which to act so we felt we were within the legal time to look at all the
information in which to give you a motion on the conditional permit. Make a recommendation to accompany
that. Any questions of us?
Mayor Chmiel: Council have any questions? Roger, give us a reiteration of legal ramifications that, and how
we proceed with it.
Roger Knutson: What the ordinance provides is that the Planning Commission has 60 days to act on a
conditional use permit... If it does not act upon the application for a conditional use permit within 60 days after
it's been referred to it, the City Council can act without the recommendation of the Planning Commission. More
or less take it away from them. 60 days.
Mayor Chmiel: After the 60 days, okay.
Roger Knutson: Exactly. Which I believe, I'm not sure, is June 1.
Nancy Mancino: June 3rd.
Roger Knutson: This says June 1st.
Nancy Mancino: Oh okay.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. To fall on June 1, 1994. Okay, thank you.
Mark Senn: Don, I'd like to show the Council one thing if I could please.
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Mark Senn: Basically what the Planning Commission, there were several issues that were raised germaine to this
project. I'm going to say technical elements of it. In the first meeting we met with Planning Commission I
think they raised about 10 different points. Most every which point which we went back and basically complied
with, included kind of a parkway, walkway you know over between the Press and the Kindercare prodding a
direct connection. A whole bunch of numerous other things like that including additional landscaping way over
and above the standard which we had already been way over and above. And a number of other things. One of
the concerns that the Planning Commission had all along is basically, and when you do get the Minutes you will
see this very clearly. One of the reasons Planning Commission was still negative on this was hard surface
coverage. Basically that relates to the Press pamel and this was basically identified I believe through a legal
opinion that Roger issued is that this site basically is in effect bettering the hard surface coverage condition that
exists there now. And by doing so it's becoming further into compliance, which is what it is supposed to do.
The way the ordinance reads, I believe, is it can't get any worst. And we're going from basically about 79%
hard surface coverage down to about 75%-76%, with this expansion. And you say well how does that happen?
Well it happens because we're basically putting the building where the parking lot is now, or on the existing
parking lot. So it's hard surface to hard surface basically. And we're supplying additional green space on the
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
site that wasn't there before. Another issue that basically became the latest Planning Commission issue. Or I
shouldn't say, not the latest one. The one that was, we were still at odds on and maybe the Planning
Commission wanted to do something through here to basically stop traffic from basically going from here
through here to come out to Dell Road. This is a fight-in/right-out only on Dell Road. Okay. We put in some
landscaped islands, all that sort of thing. You know narrow enlxances. We've done that from the beginning to
discourage that. We also talked to Press' management and Press' management agreed to basically issue to all
employees telling them not to use that as an exit. It's only to be used by those people going over to the daycare.
You know we thought that was fairly strong coming from your employer. But we also were going make a
commitment, we told staff this up front, that if it is a problem, we'll be happy to put in speed bumps or
whatever to help curtail them more. Well 48 hours before the last Planning Commission meeting, all of a
sudden staff called my people and basically told us that, what they told us was wrong and that MnDot wouldn't
approve this right-in/right-out where it is at and that in the construction of this intersection...going back so far
from that intersection, which this fell within that area. This basically, an oversight up front but was something
they had a right to do. Well, what we did on basically very short notice, which was less than 48 hours, was go
to an alternate that quite frankly we showed staff way, way up front back in March. Which was to move the
driveway here to the north so it's to the side of the building. We basically just moved the building over a hair,
not violating any setbacks and putting this...Well at the time that the staff came back with less than 48 hours
notice to let us know that, we thought well geez. I guess that should really make everybody happy because all
of a sudden that's a pretty big deterrent for traffic going straight through from the Press to Dell Road. At the
same time...moving the driveway 50 feet to the north in any way, shape or form, would have any major traffic
ramifications that didn't exist there before when it was 50 feet to the south. I mean I guess that defies
imagination that it would. So you know quite frankly, you know I don't think those are real hard issues to deal
with. I guess ! would say, I wish we would have known that more than 48 hours ahead of time after already
being in this process and back to the Planning Commission twice. But again you know, I can't help that... But
we did react with a viable alternative and...and maybe it's a question for Charles or for Dave or for Dave or
whoever but again, I can't imagine that a 50 foot difference in that location, if anything it will help the stacking
distance going out to the intersection, making a right-in/right-out. The only other part that relates to that traffic
movement, and continually got challenged from the Planning Commission, basically was the ability of the driver
to go down to the end basically there at 77th and make a U turn and come back to Dell Road and come in that
rather than making movement in through here on the main driveway. Well you know, quite fl'ankly that's
outside of our control but it can be very easily solved by the City putting up a No U Turn sign at that
intersection, as we pointed out from the very beginning. It's not a condition we're trying to create one way or
the other and stuff so I really don't think the issues here are all that terribly complex and I don't think they're
really all that complicated. There is one other issue that I think is complex and maybe complicated and that
Planning Commission brought up and that was basically one of should this use be at the "gateway" to the city.
The other one they brought up was power lines, and quite frankly I don't know of any reason that I can
technically, nor I believe anybody in the city technically can evaluate that. In the first place I don't think it's
anything our ordinance would allow us to evaluate but I can assure you that both the clients have evaluated it
because it's very important to them. In fact Kindercare has an environmental team that before a site even makes
it to the second phase, comes in and totally does a "environmental study" on the site. Including what's around
it. They actually go out there with meters and take a readings as to how many mega whatever they are and
again, I'm not competent in these things. All I can know is that the professionals that are; are happy with it and
the two landowners, they're all happy with it and the two that have liability for it are happy with it and again, I
don't think that's anything that we're really in a position to evaluate. Or that the city's in a position to evaluate.
As far as the gateway to the city. One of the reasons this was suggested in the first place, you know I thought it
really presented a nice gateway to the city. Far better than expansion of an industrial building would and maybe
another thing that needs to be understood here is, really any future expansion on the Press' part is not going to
11
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
be additional office space. I mean it's going to be additional production space. It's going to be high ceiling
warehouse space. And basically with this type of an approach, that type of development effectively is going to
be moved back. We've often times talked about perspectives and stuff...came in with this and this is basically a
perspective and it's not playing with any, basically with any sizes one way or the other. If you can visualize
yourself as that person standing out there on the trail, that's you. That's how big you are and that's what you
see. Also if you were sitting out here on Highway 5 in your car, this is precisely what you would see. To me if
that's not a nice gateway to the city, I guess I don't know what is. We've also made it real clear to staff that we
were perfectly willing, for whatever reason the city wanted anywhere between this parking lot and wherever, to
do whatever it wanted to with entry monumentations at a future date. But we haven't even addressed that. The
city hasn't addressed that yet. But when it does, it may want to do something special in that area. Kindercare
has stated right along that they have no problems with that and they're willing to put an easement in place to
deal with that. You know again, all these answers were there. All these issues were there. I think all the
resolutions were there. Again, I hate to see it die because there's nothing there that really is critical in temls of
ongoing study. And if Charles can jump in on that whether he wants to or not but I mean the key things in
terms of anything on resulting traffic and...it became kind of silly...because again, 50 foot here, 50 foot there for
a driveway and again, they thought they were being real nice by going back and altering very quickly to do
something that in effect was accomplished at least in earlier plans, that direct...So that's some of the specifics of
it and that's a lot of what will come through and show you in the Minutes in terms of the issues.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks. Does Council have any questions?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I don't have any questions but, Council has not had the opportunity to speak at all
about this issue and a lot has been said and done and I just, I'd move to table it but I would like to have some
comments. It's unfortunate that Planning Commission tabled it. However, I do understand their reasoning. I'd
really like to see this project continue. That doesn't mean I'm going to vote for it without some modifications to
it but I think everything is surmountable so I would hate to see the applicant wait for a year. On the other hand,
I don't want to be put to their time table and right now our hands our t/ed. Legally we have to let it go back to
the Planning Commission and hopefully those issues can be resolved and whether they recommend it or deny it,
and we can get on with it. And I'd just like to add that I've never seen this as a personal issue. It's always
been a site plan and just got mucked up.
Mayor Chmiel: I think you're right in what you're saying. It's not a personal issue. Although in my own
judgments I have my own opinions as well where Council people should be but that's beside the point and
people are elected to office. That's people's perogative to do so. But I do have a bit of a concern and I can
address that later but I think the item is right before us now. Whether to table this action or ff there's any real
strong feelings to move forward with it. I think I'm fully in agreement to the comments that Colleen has made
and I don't have, and I do want the Press to know, that I think they're a fine company. They do a great job.
They provide much employment within the city and has nothing to do with the Press either, It's just that two
things got fled into one item of which presents a problem. And the problem being is that the clarifications and
some of the concerns that people have on the Planning Commission are really not addressed and all the facts
basically are not before us. Until I think I see those facts as well, that's at least where I'm coming from.
Richard.
Councilman Wing: I guess I'd concur with Colleen. I just have a couple comments. I'd like to see it go back
to Planning Commission too to clarify it before it comes back to us. I'm not looking for resolution but at least
recommendations.
Mayor Chmiel: Michael.
12
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Councilman Mason: I think it's all been said. Like it or not, I think we need, that's how we need to go. I
would like Kindercare to hear that if in fact there area, and I believe that there are, 190 people or 190 homes
looking for daycare, knowing the position that I'm in as a teacher, I understand their concern about being ready
by the time the school year opens. However, I see the ads that come through the schools and what not for
constant requests for daycare during the school year. I would hope that, I understand they're concerned about
opening in the fall, if this projects gets approved. On the other hand, I also know how quickly daycare is f'filing
up any time of the year. And I would certainly hope they would take that into consideration. If in fact it goes
through. I don't think we have, like it or not, I don't think we have much choice but to second the motion that
Councilwoman Dockendoff has made.
Mayor Chmiel: Was that a motion at that time Colleen?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes it was.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. And you seconded that?
Councilman Mason: That's correct.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
Councilman Wing: I had some comments when it's appropriate. Just some issues.
Mayor Chmiel: The time and it's appropriate.
Councilman Wing: Would you like to lead off?. You made the motion.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Go ahead.
Councilman Wing: This isn't an issue and I wanted to just throw it out because of a leadership issue and I think
that the Highway 5 conidor study has been a passionate issue to me. I'm not going to deny that, and an
emotional issue but I certainly talk from the heart and I'm certainly talking for the true concern for the city. So
when we get a proposal on the west end and we really, as a unified group said, go away and leave us alone until
this is complete and staff said it's going to be done any day so it isn't a problem. And then the east end comes
in and this Highway 5 corridor study is not binding on them whatsoever. It's not a document that exists so
they're not bound by this thing and whether they comply or not, it's almost not up for discussion but my concern
was at that time, to get onto these other facts quickly here. Was that were we being fair and were we as a
Council being consistent and were we showing leadership by saying no to the group out west and go away and
leave us along but then coming in and be willing to take the time and the effort to talk to this development on
the east end. So that did concern me. It seemed to be inconsistent and slightly unfair. And I'll leave that sit
where it is. I think it's a moot point right now. The fact is ff we don't get that done, the whole corridor's going
to come in because it's still...and this is the year things come in. There's at least 5 things with Planning right
now or with staff that are going to be on Highway 5 but I'm convinced we're going to get going on that. I
guess we're talking about that later. Both for Mark, I think it's fair to talk to you directly Mark, representing the
development and then for planning. I want to make sure these items get back. Issues that I would like, that I'm
concerned about that I would either like to see come back resolved or just recommendations if nothing else. Or
denials. Whatever. But I don't want these thrown in our lap because then we're going to have to hassle with
them so number one. Number one, ~ere's just been a lot of talk and argument and the people on Planning seem
13
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
to understand parking lots. Especially Diane coming from where she does, with parking. The access. The flow.
The circulation and the concern that all the entry comes through the parking lot and that's their entry and exit.
Kind of was the parking lot through the Press as I saw it early on. So I'd like this parking thing resolved before
it gets back to us and I think the city consultant, or whoever's been hired to do this study, that should be back
and you should have that information by then and make some clarifications. Number two. Mark commented on
impervious surface and I think it's tree. They are dropping it. Our ordinance says 70%. It doesn't apply to the
expansion. I don't think it applies to the Kindercare. But I think it is worthy of discussion. I think to be
paving a lot of area over with asphalt, if it's not necessary, and the number I remember was, there was excess
parking spots. I don't even have the numbers but 10 or 12 or 15 parking spots more than was required and that
was a Planning Commission issue so if that impervious surface is there, maybe we can trade off those parking
lots that aren't required, parking spaces and get down to the impervious surface. But again, I'm not going to
question that because I don't think they're in compliance with it. We have a parking lot ordinance that requires
interior landscaping and there's a revision coming out to clarify that with sketches that requires interior parking
lot landscaping. I want to make sure that that ordinance is being met regarding interior landscaping of large
asphalt areas. I don't know if the size dictates this or not. The health ba?~rds we've discussed. I don't have
any knowledge on that but I certainly want to make sure that that's been discussed and clarified. That there
either is or isn't information and we're not putting these infants and young children underneath these wires and a
haTord that may or may not exist today or in the future. I think if there's a place to err, it would be on the
conservative side here but I know less than anybody else on that. The Press expansion. Landscaping. I'd like
to make sure that that expansion has a landscape design coming to the Council that's been recommended,
approved, improved or denied. But whatever is required on those big blank walls, let's have that up front and
defined before it gets to Council so we don't have to debate whether we should put in two more trees or some
simple. Let's have that done before it gets here. And then I guess the one that I'm perhaps most concerned
about, and again this is having looked at the Kindercare and I haven't seen the Marcus proposal. I don't know
what it's going to look like other than the brick in the brief picture we saw. But all the rooflines I looked at and
the 4 Kindercars I looked at, were very linear. Very flat. Didn't have what I saw as good quality roofing
material and I can't define that. I think Mark brought up that there's a special shingle that looks like, whatever
that is. I'd like to see that but there was a lot of pipes. Vents. Miscellaneous roofmg stuff on these very linear,
flat roof surfaces that I didn't think looked good at all. So the only issue I have with the project maybe itself, is
the roof line. I'd like Planning to look carefully, look at the roofline. The linear roof line and do we need to
break it up. Do we have to meet some quality or some architectural standards to the roof line on these buildings
because they're, again. I hope I'm not using the wrong words because I don't want to offend Marcus
Development but it's kind of a cookie cutter building in that it's kind of standard Kindercare building, as I see it.
And a basic square building without a lot of architectural standards and designs and shadowing and angles and
that's fine. That's certainly, it's maybe irrelevent because it meets the standards but the roof line. If I can just
put in one personal comment it would be could we look at the roof line and make sure we break up that linear
effect, if it's not appropriate. And if you haven't looked at the Kindercares that exist, I think you should
because the roofs are not necessarily amactive. On the other hand, the proposal coming in may address that
issue and may be different and of higher quality than the ones that exist and I don't have that information but I'd
like to before it gets back to us. Thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: Your welcome...with those additional clarifications. Any other discussiori? Hearing none, we
have a motion on the floor with a second. To table. Bring this back to the Planning Commission. All the
comments that Councilman Wing has provided as well and to have it at least come back to Council with
recommendations, approval or denial before they get in the project.
Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Mason seconded to ~able action on the Preliminary Plat
14
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
feel strongly that the HRA should be the City Council and to me, the reason that it should be that is it provides a
more open process for the HRA and the decisions they make and makes the HRA's decisions more open to
scrutiny by the public. And again, the electorate can hold the City Council then responsible for those actions
and decide accordingly. You know right now there's huge sums of money in the city being controlled by the
HRA and there's not a citizen in town that can hold them responsible for anything, Because they don't have the
option to elect them or not elect them. And I just think those are compelling reasons why the Council should be
the HRA. And that's the reason why I'm going to say 90 some percent of the municipalities have already made
that move. Very few municipalities still have an independent HRA in the State of Minnesota. And just I think
with what's happening in Chanhassen, it behooves us to take that responsibility and accountability and I'd like to
see the HRA and the City Council in effect be one and the same. But again, I know that's the minority
viewtx)int so enough said. Plus I'm beaten so I'd better shut myseff off.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? Richard.
Councilman Wing: Well I, I really respect all three opinions.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: How political of you.
Councilman Senn: That's beuer than saying we should talk about term limits after midnight, right?
Councilman Wing: First of all, I would like to serve on the I-IRA, but that's neither here nor there. Whether it's
now or in the future but why would I like to serve on the HRA as a Council member? Well, they control more
money than I do. They control our future. They control development, etc, etc. So I mean every time somebody
complains to me I say, go to an BRA meeting. Well who are they? Well they're the people building your
city. Controlling it and I can't disagree with Mark. I think I-IRA is a very strong, powerful force in their
element. And why don't you say it right now, because it will clarify where I'm going.
Councilman Mason: Okay, I will say it. I think HRA is involved with downtown redevelopment and there's a
real big difference between what goes on in the city and what goes on in downtown.
Councilman Wing: Yeah, downtown.
Councilman Mason: I think that does need to be made clear.
Councilman Wing: Yeah, let me be real specific.
Mayor Chmiel: It's all within each of the TIF districts.
Councilman Wing: Downtown. But that's to me what Chanhassen is right now and becoming. Civilians.
Absolutely mandatory to have the community and civilians in there and I guess my frustration there is, I have
been disappointed in and disappointed with some of the comments, lack of leadership. Perhaps personal
weaknesses that I personally have seen at HRA that have been frustrating for me. I don't, know if I can say that
critically other than I have not particularly felt a lot of leadership from some of the civilian members. So that's
come back I think to haunt us a little bit. But the diversity I think is important to be there. I guess I would
favor the majority being the Council, mainly because the Council itself is diverse. It's not a gang coming from
City Hall to haunt HRA. The civilian members still have their vote. The discussion still goes on and a strong
member whether, being a strong personality and emotional and passionate on issues I believe in, if I was on
17
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
HRA, would take you guys on lock, stock and barrel. I don't care if you come from the Council or not and I'd
rant and rave and see that the point got made, and if you're right, you're fight. I wouldn't allow the Council to
dominate me. Could we dominate the existing group? Maybe. I don't know but, so I guess, I don't know ff I
want to take it over but I guess I son of, because of the amount of money and the amount of vision and the
amount of future involved, I kind of favor seeing one of us sit there as the third member to have the majority
vote. I don't know ff that dilutes it down too much. If we had a lot stronger, more aggressive leadership from
the civilian side I might say, that isn't necessary. I think they'd be in here talking and communicating and I
wouldn't, they wouldn't be allowing us to run their show so. I would be comfortable with a third member from
Council sitting on there. I would not be disappointed, I'd be very comfortable supporting the position that you
had too. To leave it as is. But I would warn the civilian group, do their job and be aggressive and make sure
they're going toe to toe here with the Council.
Mayor Chmiel: I think the civilian segment of the community does look to what interest is for the city as well.
And there's no question in my mind some of the things that come back from staff or some of the proposals and
so on are the things that this I-IRA really addresses. And rightfully so because that's the way the city functions.
Staff makes the recommendations of the I-IRA or City Council can either approve or disapprove whatever comes
before them. You want to say something?
Councilman Wing: Well just.
Councilman Senn: Don that's true but it doesn't ever go to the second step I guess is what I come back to. If
the HRA does something, it never goes to the Council and the Council doesn't have an option, as the elected
representatives of the city, to conf'mn or deny what the HRA has done and to me that's where the process goes
awry.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and sometimes just what you're saying is if we were to have addressed some of those
things, but some of the things you even brought out to Council, on some of your no decisions that you voted on,
I'm sure would have gone the same way. And the discussion still would be there but that's all that would be
there.
Councilman Senn: That's a very limited amount of what the I-IRA does.
Mayor Chmiel: That's exactly right.
Councilman Senn: Very limited amount.
Mayor Chmiel: But the point of the I-IRA being where they are, I still feel strongly that we have citizen input
rather than taking over lock, stock and barrel and ram rodding through what you think you should mm rod
through. And I don't believe in that either. It's.
Councilman Senn: 'Why is it mm rodding? I mean I don't understand that. I mean if every citizen come to
every hearing and provide their input. I mean to me that's not the Council...
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, maybe it's a poor choice of a word to say mm rodding. Maybe that's not the proper
word. But would the decisions be any different? I don't know.
Councilman Senn: Well, who knows?
18
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: Richard.
Councilman Wing: Because of the growth of our city and the amount of money involved and the complexity of
these issues, I have to side with Mark in that I think the Council really needs to be intimately, strongly and have
a lot of control over this. I wouldn't go as far as Mark in ~ldng over it's entirety but I guess I do favor having
the majority vote and I would just leave it at that. And no hard feelings ff it doesn't go that way.
Mayor Chmiel: Oh no, no. No. I think we've worked too long together to have hard feelings one way or the
other.
Councilman Wing: Count on that.
Mayor Chmiel: And those don't happen here, as far as I'm concerned.
Councilman Senn: If you're looking for comments Don, I mean it's not hard to sense you know where it's
going here. I mean I think the chances of the Council takirlg it over at pretty slim to none but, from the
comments I'm hearing. But you know if you're asking for comments beyond that then yeah. The more Council
representation I'm going to say that can get on there, the happier I'm going to be, even though I think that where
we should be is all and so I just, and I guess like Richard, I would be happy to express my interest in doing that
but again I know I'm the minority vote so the chances probably are slim of that too but I think the I-IRA needs
to ask a lot harder questions than they ask about things. And I think those things need to be aired a lot more in
an open process than they are being so.
Councilman Wing: I want to target, excuse me Mike. If I can just target Mark's last sentence. I think that's
the key to where I'm coming from. They need to ask a lot of hard questions and Mark, could you phrase that
again so it gets repeated. Your feelings about what they need to do because I feel probably that same way.
Councilman Senn: Well I just think again, they need to ask a lot harder questions than they're asking about
things and really get to the bottom of them and you know, hey. Most of their decisions involve pure and simply
expense. It's dollars going out and those, as we're so much reminded of here in the last year or two, those
resources are dwindling faster than we can keep up with them and how those resources are used are becoming
more and more critical here, especially as it winds down to the early 2000's when at least TIF as we know it
now goes away. And that's not to say that there's probably not going to be an instant replacement of it but you
know, to wind down I think is going to be real critical for the city to set those priorities and get them where they
want them. And like I say, the best way I see to do that is to have the Council do it and take the leadership role
in doing that.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. When you make discussions regarding TIF, I think where the TIF dollars have gone to
what you see downtown and what you see in the industrial park, I think are quite well spent. Just the way the
community is developing. In addition to that, the new grade school as well. I think there's an awful lot of
pluses that have come from it. There may have been a few questionables that you think about when it comes to
purchasing buildings or things of that nature. But I think the total dollars that have been spent accordingly is
best for the community.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Here's one of the reasons I wrote down. One of my reasons...that I would favor
making the two commissions, or the Council and the commission one and the same. It's just getting back to the
communication issue. But more of, if we think our audiences here are sparse, I've never seen anyone sit in an
19
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
HRA meeting. I don't think the community knows who they are, what they do, what issues they deal with and I
don't know how we garner citizen input when people don't know that these items are being discussed and who
discusses them. When people think of the projects that are going on in the city, they think of the City Council
you know approving those projects and.
Councilman Senn: And when they're getting built, that's when you hear from them. City Council person.
Councilman Wing: When they don't work, and the streets don't work and everything else, and I'm up against
the wall saying, I didn't do it. And they said, well you're the Council. Who in the heck did it.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Right, and why?
Councilman Wing: The HRA did it.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well what the heck's that.
Councilman Wing: That's exactly.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah so you know, I don't know if it's whether we do it in a report or a newsletter
or whether Mr. Trippler would be nice enough to write an article about who and what the I-IRA does but
somehow we have to let the citizens know.
Mayor Chmiel: Well I think too that the Minutes coming from the HRA within the packets probably should also
be there. As to what's discussed rather than just seeing what's being proposed. We get the Minutes, and I think
if there's direction that Council feels that there should be some discussion on, and feels what's in the packet is
not apropos, that's when it's time for Council to come back before the HRA and at least state their opinions.
And I know that Richard has done it from time to time and I think that's where I think that different aspect
comes from.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: But I'm not ~alking about just the Council. I'm talking about the community at
large. They need to know what's going on.
Mayor Chmiel: True. But that's also published as an informational item in the newspaper and just like you see
tonight. Unfortunately there are not enough people who are really interested but take that amount and put their
feelings towards us because they think that we are the authority in coming up with those discussions. Or with
whatever we might address. So that's another pan of it.
Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes Don.
Councilman Senn: Well if we're going, something Don if I could. To follow up on Colleen's point, just so we
don't lose it. I just would really like, even d we're not going to go ahead and do anything on the Council and,
or I should say most the Council isn't going to, the more open we can make that process the better, and if that
means start putting HRA meetings on TV and getting better coverage on it and stuff like that, then I think we
should we do that. I mean it just never ceases to amaze me the number of people that come up to me and tell
me that they watch this. Which leads me to question a number of things but, especially with all the midnight to
20
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
2:00 a.m. meetings we have but you know, but if they do, at least it gives people a way to start understanding
what it is and who it is and what they're doing and I don't know whether that will help much or not but I guess
I'd like to see more and more steps towards that since again I don't think the other's going to happen.
Mayor Chmiel: Well okay. Don, you wanted to say something here.
Don Ashworth: Just a couple of quick comments. And I re~_.liTe this is being tabled. You've put a lot of
emphasize on the money that the HRA has and it's more than City Council. When we review this document in
2 weeks you're going to see here where really the HRA has fully committed it's funds. I mean this takes into
account what's in the ground today and so there's a strong likelihood that before the I-IRA folds their door. that
you may be £mding a plus to the $3 million position over where we're at I think from a year ago of about $4
million. Something like that. Secondly the HR.A, and in 2 weeks you're going to be holding the hearing on the
HRA's redevelopment plan and included in there is each and every item that they can spend money for. And
their incentive program. So ff you don't like the current incentive program, because the HRA generally treats all
businesses the same, and I know there was some discussion. Well should we provide incentive for ABC versus
another one. Well again, the policy is in there. I'd like to spend time potentially with each one of you to take
and walk down through each one of those. The pedestrian bridge is in there. The I4_anus facility is in there.
The incentive program as it deals with new businesses coming in is in there, ff this City Council doesn't
approve those, the HRA can't do them. So I mean that's a real vital document and again we're going through
uno,her revision here in another 2 weeks. And so here is your opportunity for.
Mayor Chmiel: Look at it and scrutinize it.
Don Ashworth: ...of input.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. So with that I'd like to have a motion to table this to our next meeting which would be
the 23rd.
Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table the appointment to the Housing and
Redevelopment Authority until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: Item number 7. Well before we go to that. Maybe we'll address item (0 and (o). Mark. Of
the Consent Agenda.
3(F). APPROVE YEAR END CLOSINGS AND TRANSFERS.
Councilman Senn: On item (f), I guess I pulled this for the main reason that I suppose if we could do this by
line item. I support everything in here except four items but on the basis that I'm not sure that that ability exists
I asked for it to be removed. The reason I asked for it to be removed quite honestly is I just get really, really
bothered seeing effectively $560,000.00 being transfered into a fund called City Hall expansion when this
Council has not had any discussion about expanding City Hall. So I have no intention of voting for those one
way or the other going into that fund. The other one is down under the second listing. $74,201.60. You
know...prime example of HRA. That's $74,201.60 in consulting fees to I-IGA on the ill fated attempt to put a
community center behind the Frontier Building. And I just again, I can't go for thaL I don't know how we ever
allowed almost $75,000.00 to be spent on a project that this Councilman never set as a priority or even endorsed
in the end. And have similar feelings down the line. The $22,930.00 in consulting fees to go tell us we should
spend $200,000.00 for entry monuments in the city so, I'd be happy, like I say, to vote for approval on all these
21
City Council Meeting - May 9, I994
items except those four and those are the masons why on those four.
Councilman Wing: Can you back up Mank? I got the $74,000.00. What was the next one?
Councilman Senn: $74,201.60. And then the last one was the $22,930.00 in consulting fees to tell us that we
should turn around and build a $200,000.00 entry monuments. Those are the ones I have problems with
transferring.
Mayor Chmiel: I think we'll get into that discussion as we progress to item number 7. So maybe what we
should do is just hold off yet on (f) until once we hear some discussion on item 7 yet that Don is going to bring
out here. How about (o)? We'll just hold that one until, and then we'll bring it back.
3(0). AUTHORIZE FILING FOR RATE REGULATION, CABLE TV, FCC.
Councilman Senn: My only question there was did we get a response back on our ability to effectively do this
later rather than spend the money now? Or more or less you know, piggy backing with the other communities.
Don Ashworth: Don and I have met back with Triax. Really it came down to the fact that the cost really had
akeady been incurred by literally all parties. I mean we...regulation or filing for that, we're simply copying the
documents that have already been created as it relates to the Minnetonka group. And as far as Triax is
concerned, since they have had to prepare each of the forms that are required, they're simply copying those as it
relates back to us. I guess both parties, all parties, meaning our specialized attorney in this area~..Brian Grogan.
Recommended that we go through this Triax attorney and try to extend this out. It's looking that way. And I
guess Don and I just came back saying, this probably provides the greatest assurance that we'll be able to
regulate rates if it's necessary.
Councilman Senn: Okay. Is the right word leverage I hope?
Mayor Chmiel: That's part of it.
Councilman Senn: Well I mean I'm just u'ying to get answers to some of the questions I brought up last time
that came up and I'm sorry, I didn't get any of the answers. And I didn't know you had met and I didn't have
any of this information. I guess if you're saying that we are in effect piggybacking but we have to spend the
money to file the application, I think that answers one question I had. The other question is, I guess I really
would still like a fu'rn answer. Do we have additional leverage or don't we? I mean otherwise it seems to be
real silly that we're spending the money ff we're not picking up additional leverage.
Don Ashworth: We're picking up leverage from the standpoint of federal law and what it will allow us to
regulate and what it will not. It insures that our citizens get that 17% rollback. You know fact it, they're going
to just do some tier adjustments and.
Councilman Senn: They do everything they can do.
Don Ashworth: You know so I mean as far as tree rate regulation, I don't know that it's them but.
Councilman Senn: There was a deal April 1st where they weren't supposed to be able to charge for additional
outlets and they've said oh they're not paying attention to that because you know it hasn't really happened.
22
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
That's what I mean. We have to get control of these guys. It's getting ridiculous.
Mayor Chmieh My hot button. That's right. And I think by doing.
Councilman Senn: Doing what they want to do when they want to do it and they say we know nothing about
what they're doing.
Mayor Chmieh Well that's because the feds come back and they give them a song and dance but yet I don't
believe their full song and dance.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, and they keep giving them extensions too. I mean which was part of the last question
I think I raised last time with all these extensions they keep giving. Should we just wait until the questions are
gone.
Mayor Chmieh My question at that meeting was the same thing where I thought that was to be off the bills and
I believe that they should start showing that. It was either last month or this coming month. One of those two.
I'd have to look back at my Minutes.
Todd Gerhardt: There's still going to be a 52 cent charge.
Mayor Chmiel: 52 is right, as opposed to $4.95. If you read what they came out with their most recent billing
too, it says they're going to have a rate reduction in one thing of whatever amount of cents it was and they were
going to raise that on the other end of it. So actually there's no reduction and there's, it just sort of wipes it
clean. But the portion of the outlets is something that I've been harping for so long. People finally started
listening. And yet we still haven't seen it but the feds have even approached it now from that standpoint.
Councilman Senn: With that info I'll move approval then.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Wing: Can I just ask one question?
Mayor Chmieh No.
Councilman Wing: 30 seconds. You keep pulling these Mark, and I don't have cable television so I've sort of
not paid attention.
Councilman Senn: Well Dick if you moved into the...
Councilman Wing: Well I live out where the people that have these conveniences. Your concerns are, you pull
these because you have some concerns. I want to clarify in my mind why you're watching this. Rates? What
are the specifics why you're pulling these and you're concerned about them?
Councilman Senn: Okay. Triax Cablevision charges one of the highest rates that exists in cable television.
When you compare them against all the other cable companies in the metropolitan area, they're one of the
highest. And ff you look at what they charge you for, I mean it's not real hard to see, excuse me for these like
Don says, or maybe you don't say. But might agree was a little trumped up. I mean as soon as they're told to
23
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
reduce one thing, they basically just turn around and move it somewhere else and raise it on top of that. And
quite frankly when you compare the service we get, and this is really where it comes back and gets me irritated
is when you compare the service we get, and we have one of the highest charges, it makes no sense at all
because we have neighborhoods in the city who would love to get cable who those guys won't even bring cable
to. Okay. Yet I go into other systems and hey, people want cable. They get it there fight away and they're
cheaper. And not Triax. I mean Triax sits there and sends you through 10 song and dances and a year and a
half of we'll be out to maybe get a cable to you and that's not servicing our citizens. And to me every
household in the city, if when in fact we've given them the franchise and they're supposed to provide the cable
in the city, that means dang it, if people want it, they should get them the cable. That's not our fault that they
have to run a cable a little bit further to do it. But then maybe we should talk about criteria and get it set up
and going but it shouldn't be totally in their hands. And now we've gone around and even made it easier for
them. Now we're going to tum around and make it the developer's cost and responsibility to put the cable in for
them. Now the interest part's going to be to see whether that makes it any easier to get them to hook it up.
Mayor Chmiel: Well it should hopefully but you're right. We've discussed and argued those points rather
extensively at the meetings that we've had. But anyway.
Councilman Wing: When the rates come down and you feel the service is reasonable, will you let me know and
I'll hook back up. I'll hold off until then.
Councilman Senn: Oh you have it, you're just not hooked up?
Councilman Wing: I'm just not hooked up.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'I1 move the other element. Could you advocate to get it into my neighborhood
because I don't want it but my neighbors.
Councilman Senn: I have. I have.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to authorize the filing for rate regulations for
Cable TV with the FCC. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
ENTRY MONUMENTS, CITY MANAGER.
Mayor Chmiel: We'll move onto the Administrative Presentations. We'll move on the entry monuments and
then I'll go back to that item (f) in regards to this. Don.
Don Ashworth: I asked Hoisington Group to present this evening to talk about it. Michael Schroeder, t__alk about
at least some of the initial thoughts that they have been coming up with as far as the entry monuments. They're
aware of the comments that are currently in the Highway 5 corridor plan...diligently working with the downtown
group as far as the Vision 2002 and have finally have seen some of the work efforts that were done in previous
discussions where they had brought in the University of Minnesota. And by the way, a good portion of those
costs that we looked at, the $22,000.00 figure, related back to the work effort by the University which grew from
let's say $8,000.00-$9,000.00 up to about $15,000.00 where they finished I think about the 6th of those
video...films. And then we've got an additionaL.and that's what raised the cost up to the current deficit of about
24
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
$22,000.00 which that transfer basically insures we'll close the year without having that deficit. With that
Michael you're on.
Michael Schroeder: Thanks Don. The City's asked me to come here tonight to talk about some ideas about
setting direction for entry features into the city. And I just handed out a brief outline that says the amount of
work we've done to date. So far it's been very little. We've only started thinking about it briefly. We really
want to get some direction from both the Council and the HRA before we proceed head long into this but I
thought it was worth while stepping back. I understand there has been work done in the past on entry features
and monumentation for Chanhassen and I thought I'd identify some of those that have been done. I don't have
with me the stuff that Barton-Ashman has done with the limestone wall but I have some other things that have
been done, including a recent look at Highway 5 that HGA has done. They looked at some features along the
corridor that tie in line with what Hoisington-Koegler is doing with our Vision 2002 work. And also to point out
that the pedestrian bridge that Strgar-Roscoe-Fausch has been working on will actually be started within the next
couple months. It's also an element of an enu'y feature into the community, although it serves more than one
purpose. Related to our work in Vision 2002, we've identified a couple of sites in town that can help us to
identify some of the points of entry that we felt are important, especially relative to the center. And that would
be at the AVR, Taco Shop, Highway 101 site where it meets Highway 5. Also on Highway 5 and Market
Boulevard and Powers Boulevard. And as we started to identify some of the potential other sites for entries, the
entry at Great Plains is still important. The entry at Dell Road is important and there are probably others
including entries moving from west to east through the community. We really feel the best opportunities for
marking entries into the community are along Highway 5 corridor. These are the best opportunities. Certainly
you enter Chanhassen from many other places but most people move along that corridor and that's where, at
least as far as we...so far, the direction should be set. We have gone through and identified some very basic
principles that we'll be following as we generate concepts for enay features and the first one is the first '
principles...principle of identification. We're trying to make the boundaries of the center or of the edges of the
community with some kind of a entry feature. We also, in principle number two feel that there should be some
relation to one another. It should be a series of gateways as you move through the community. Each one of
these things should look somewhat like the other. In some way so it isn't actually, not different elements but
recalling the same element as you move along Highway 5. The third principle and this is the one that will
probably take the most amount of direction is that the entry feaun,~ should reflect somehow the character of the
community. It's people. It's landscape. It's place. It's history. A whole range of things that we can start to
explore once we have a little bit of direction. The other thing that we need quite a bit of help from, both this
group and from the HRA is trying to define what exactly the entry features should be. What should it be that's
going to signify entering into Chanhassen? And as a list of kind of contrary statements or opposing statements
that might be thought of as...and basically it ranges from gaining strength from some kind of a feature through...
with it's surroundings or trying to be similar to it's surroundings. Both are reasonable directions to move but we
need some direction from the Council and the HRA before we start to explore. And actually I think the next
question is also important, and that's to define to what degree it should be a monument. Whether it should stand
out strongly and be a powerful statement about entering Chanhassen. On the other hand, should it just be a clue.
Should it be something that recalls features of the landscape. Features of the community that are important in
this landscape. That's one of the things that Morrish's group pointed out in the work that they've done here.
Should it be something that's, people recognize as being a part of the community but it doesn't stand up and
shout Chanhassen? Or should it be somewhere in the center? So these are the kinds of ideas that we need help
setting some direction on. Once we have some direction on whether it should be obviously different than it's
surroundings or close, we can get some idea whether it should be a monument. More like the Barton-Asclunan
limestone wall. Or whether it should be something similar to the work that Morrish's group did in the
Design Center with the roads they were defining for the AVR site, which is also an element of entry into the
25
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
community.
Councilman Senn: I have a question for you. Maybe the rules have changed recently but I thought there were
pretty hard and fast rules, both on the State level and the County level as to what you could do within their
right-of-ways and they don't include monuments. I thought there was a standard form of state signage that this
is the only thing they will allow in their fight-of-way. And from a county perspective that's, or at least in
Hennepin County that's true. I thought Carver was the same. I can't tell you that for sure but I know the State
it's tree. So I mean does that then mean that you are forced to acquire land for every one of these and input
them off of State right-of-way and basically get into more land acquisition. More etc.
Michael Schroeder: The thinking that we've been doing so far has been that the monuments would not happen,
whether it's monuments or whatever the feature is, would not be within the county or state right-of-way. That it
would be on property that's owned by the city. Or acquired by the city. In fact as we've gone through and
looked at some of the things that have gone on with the Vision 2002, related to these entries here, we have
started to think about if we carded through the idea that this drawing depicts where around Market Boulevard
there would be a statement that reflects the wetland character that Morrish identified early on at Market
Boulevard. Or moving down towards Target. Something that reflects the oaks that are near Target and up on
the hill behind where the Byerly's development will be. Or on the east end of town, the grove site where
Morrish talked about maples. All of those, in order to make a significant statement would probably require
additional land beyond what's there and available now. We could probably do something on the land that's
available but it would be far more successful if we could make a larger statement. In that case it would be, land
addition in terms of landscape and it may not pose any limitations to the development of those sites, depending
on how they actually proceed.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I think if, as we look at monument, marker, whatever clue it might be, we looked at
many, many things through the HRA and I think some of the deciding factors were the amount of dollars that
are spent on whatever's going to go in. There for a while we had one large amount of dollars for a monument
or two and to me, yeah it made a statement. Look at all the money we're spending, which was $250,000.00 per
and I thought no way. I can't see spending those amount of dollars. Can you, in making a suggestion, put a
dollar figure on whatever we plan on putting, whether it be a monument or a marker. One or the other.
Michael Schroeder: Certainly that would be a big part of what we would have to do.
Mayor Chmiel: And that is where I think, at least I'm coming from. I don't know about the rest of the Council
but I'm sure they're concerned with the dollars as well. I've driven, as I've often said, through a lot of cities
and just checking out markers as you come into their communities. They are, some of them are you know, it
doesn't really say much but there are some that are out there that I know have not cost anywhere close to
$250,000.00 and probably as much as only $40,000.00 or $50,000.00. But it still makes that statement for that
community and it doesn't look bad. And I wish I carried a camera with because there's been a few that I
thought were fairly decent looking and yet the over expenditure of dollars wasn't there. But yet it still made a
statement. Small community or big you know, it really doesn't mae, er. Richard.
Councilman Wing: You're asking us some questions tonight that we've asked before and we've spent hours and
weeks and months with the same questions and I'm saying geez, are we after all this, are we starting over again
after looking at all those models and all the bricks and all the designs and towers. And the towers made out of
cement and the towers with wood and the one with the bell in it. How could we be back to the starting point
after all of that except these guys from the HRA said half a million dollars for a wall. You must be crazy.
26
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Well, there's some validity to that statement.
Councilman Senn: I think most of us said that.
Councilman Wing: So we're back to monuments, location, size, materials. Oh my word. This is kind of
discouraging. I happen to think, first of all I'm very happy with the east and west end saying Chanhassen,
Population 15,285. But now when we get downtown, now I think we're looking at centralizing our downtown
and now we're looking at our central business district and now we're talking where the population of people are
going and something that I would like to identify. And now I'm looking for a touch of class and it becomes a
key element to a strong downtown and a focal point downtown and a key element to our development downtown
and now I'm ready to spend some money and do it right. So I don't want to put in something that isn't sizeable
and doesn't make a statement. Or if we're just going to put in markers, I'd like to be very conservative and then
not spend much money at all. I mean to say...cheaply, that's f'me with me but if we're going to really hit the
downtown and identify it, I guess I would tend to put these markers downtown and one of them. Well I tell you
what. I'm not sure about the locations because I had my heart set on Market Boulevard and TH 5 as the central
point with all the Ixees and the marker were the ones we looked at but the ones too, where the Taco Shop was.
That makes sense. And out at the Target end. I guess that makes sense. So for myself I would put three
locations down. The Taco Shop, west end of Target, and Market Boulevard if I was to put any monuments in.
Pass it onto my colleague.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well, let me completely discourage you. I think at Dell and TH 5 is a silly place
to put an enhance monument because it's such a small section. I mean people always think that the homes to
the south are Chanhassen. We have to explain they're Eden Prairie. Anyway, that's not an appropriate site.
Definitely up at the old AVR site. And again I'm happy with a natural element. I don't like markers to
neighborhoods so I'm not big on enUance markers in general. But I do like the idea of a natural element. I
think when you hit downtown and you know you're downtown, therefore you don't need a marker. That's kind
of my opinion and we're going to have a pedestrian bridge there, which hopefully will have some kind of
identification of Chanhassen on it. Perhaps one, I wouldn't be completely opposed to something at Market and
TH 5. And then on the west side, people know when they hit the Arboretum that they're here. I'm not sure that
we need one down there. So we already tentatively have plans for the AVR site. We've got the bridge. The
only issue in my mind is do we put something at Market and I'm not certain about that. And I guess getting to
your specific questions. I'm looking for something that's abstract. Something that's natural. Not anything, not
a monument. Not something concrete.
Mayor Chmiel: Michael.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Can I give you my suggestions?
Councilman Senn: I thought you vis.aliTed it for us.
Councilman Mason: Or Welcome to Chart. Spend money here. I don't know.
Councilman Senn: Well don't forget you have to list the Mayor and Council...
Councilman Mason: Yeah, I don't know. I'll admit as a member of HRA, when we got that quarter of a
million dollar bill I kind of went well, and even without anyone from Council telling me what they thought about
it, I kind of figured I knew how Council would feel about it. You know being a member of Council, I'll know.
27
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Yeah, I don't know. I see, downtown I can see it'd be kind of nice to have something that says this is Chan. I
can go along with that. But yeah, at either end, I agree with Colleen. I mean anyone coming in from that end
of town knows where Chan starts and the Arboretum there. ! don't know, those little green or brown road signs
with the population, like Richard said, have worked for a long time. At either end. But it is always kind of
interesting to see what else is out there too.
Councilman Wing: But didn't we primarily look just at the Market? Were we looking at one or two? Was it
just Market Boulevard?
Councilman Mason: Well at one time, as I recall, we were looking at two and then.
Mayor Chmiel: Great Plains and Market Boulevard.
Councilman Senn: Are you done?
Councilman Mason: I'm done, sure.
Councilman Senn: I guess from my standpoint I'd really like to see the Council reach some closure on it and
provide some real specific direction before we go and spend another $22,000.00 designing $250,000.00+
monuments but ouff. I don't know. You know, the bridge is going to be there. I think it'd be really nice ff we
could very tastefully in some way, shape or form, which probably is a snowball chance in you know what with
the State of doing anything, but I think the effort should really be made to try to do something tasteful with that
bridge. That people will understand because I think that is, whether we like it or not, now that that bridge is
going to be there, that is going to be an entry monument. You know beyond that, I really don't see. I mean I
think all the entries to Chanhassen east, west, north, south, whatever and there are plenty of them, I mean we're
going to be plagued with the standard signage and I don't see any real change coming in those rules because at
least most of the major ones I know of are either State or County roads. And I'm not willing to get into, start
getting into a city wide land acquisition program for monumentation. I think Market's important I'd really like
to see something at Market. I'd like to see something at Market's that natural. Maybe with some small brick
treatment. I have never found distasteful the, I'm going to say, small but visible and not real over powering you
know brick monuments that you see in many cities where you turn around and you see the Rotary Club and the
Lions Club little round emblem in brass. Or well again, there's some schlaky ones too because I mean I've seen
some schlaky ones with these little you know wood cut out, plywood you know emblems and stuff on it but
there's some nice ones too. Because that has lots to say about your community I think too in terms of those
service clubs and stuff being there. Of course it's also another nice way to pay for them too because most of
those cases, when that's done, the service clubs put together the funding to do it through some type of fund
raising effort but I guess when I get into saying, looking at brick monumentation as part of the landscaping
thing, I look at dollars. More down, maybe around the $10,000.00 range than the $50,000.00 or $40,000.00
range. And I think that statement can be made, like I say, in a landscaping way where I think our money would
be a lot more well spent than bricks and mortar and stuff. I just think, it's just my own opinion but I think it's
real non sensical to do much of anything by the old Taco Shop because I mean if you're coming down TH 101
and if you're coming into Chanhassen, you turn before you hit it and if you hit TH 5, you're either going east or
you're going west and if you're going west, you're going to hit Market anyway and that's going to identify the
downtown area. If you're coming from the west, I don't see how you can miss the downtown area. I mean it's
a little hard to miss the massiveness of the buildings and the signage and everything else that's already out there.
It's even going to be worse yet when more gets done. I don't think we have to really point out the obvious at
that intersection. I like the more central approach where we kind of bring them in Market as a focal point to the
28
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
downtown area. And just do that tastefully and not get carried away on monumentation.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Richard.
Councilman Wing: Can I ask the City Manager a question?
Mayor Chmiel: Sure.
Councilman Wing: On the record and will you answer this as thoroughly and completely as you can. The press
is here. Roger's here and the entire Council's here. Don, a lot of us on the Council here, the majority sat
through studies, surveys, committee meetings, designs, and basically decisions were made up and to that. I
think we got rid of that wrought iron crucifix, the word comes up but that wrought iron.
Councilman Mason: I don't think it was a crucifix.
Councilman Wing: No, no. That wrought iron.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: Star of David?
Councilman Wing: No, just anyways. The arch we had.
Councilman Senn: What are these? I mean these are all new. This is real interesting.
Councilman Wing: We went down through, as I said, all these different designs and we had models built and all
these different designers and we had contests and the University held a contest. And then we came down to Jeff
Farmakes coming in and designing what, everybody said we like it. Let's go.
Councilman Senn: When did you do this? I'm just curious.
Councilman Wing: Over the last 4 years that I've been on Council.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, he designed something really neat,
Councilman Wing: So if you want to know, here's what I'm getting at. The $22,000.00. Actually it's more
than that because we were spending, there was tens of thousands of dollars over this.
Councilman Senn: Well this is only $22,093.00 Dick. Don't get me wrong.
Mayor Chmiel: When Farmakes did what he did, there was no charge to the city. This is all out of his own
time, which was a lot.
Councilman Wing: I understand. But over the years now we have tens of thousands of dollars committed to
this project and what happened Don? Where did it fall down? Was it just }IRA panicked at the last minute?
Rightfully so. I'll just make that assumption and didn't want to take the design as presented and go with it so it
kind of stopped right there. And one of my complaints that night was, but we've spent tens of thousands of
dollars getting to this point to make a decision and do nothing. And again, I won't say that was the wrong
decision. But now we're back to almost point zero. Is that correct?
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Don Ashworth: I don't agree. I think that the HRA had picked out, made a decision. Yeah, we should really
be looking at entry monuments. And yes we did involve the University and yes there was a contest within
HGA. I think the biggest problem with that was that we put it into a narrower context of just these entry areas
and what should we really do with those. I guess I'm really happy that we took a step back. And then a
$500,000.00 price tag came in along with it. The Mayor's absolutely correct. We said, hey wait a minute.
That's not what we're looking at. But also in that process we took a step back and we said, there's a broader
issues here in terms of Highway 5 corridor and the overall downtown and really the whole Bill Morrish type of
thing and as a result of that, I guess I really like what I'm seeing now and I think that ff we would have moved
ahead with the St. Louis arch type of thing, that it would have been a big mistake because I think we've got an
opportunity, for the most part, each of those green areas that are shown there, we own those lands. And for the
most part, they incorporate a water feature right now. The third one, well the center one Market does. The 17
will shortly have one as pan of the drainage thing. The whole 78th realignment. It would be very easy to
incorporate something on that east end. I think we've got a real possibility to do exactly what Mark stated.
Define each of those rooms with potentially a higher deciduous type of tree on the outside. Potentially markings
inside of those with bunches of crabs or other plant materials so that all of them read similarly and they all kind
of defined this larger room thing that Bill Morrish was trying to get at and I think we can make a lot of
identification for Chanhassen simply by looking at those 3 areas and trying to make them into something that
people would recognize. This is uniquely Chanhassen. So I don't know if I answered your question. But yeah,
I think we took a step back and I think we did it for the better part and I guess I'm happy that I think we're
maybe even taking a new approach. Yes, it did cost us $22,000.00 to take and realize that that was a mistake.
Councilman Senn: I want to come to Don's defense too.
Councilman Wing: Is that the price of business?
Councilman Senn: Well, you know to me Dick, and I think it's a real valid question that you asked and you
know, the same question then is just, I can't tell you what happened before I was on the Council. I mean all I
can tell you is what happened since I'm on the Council and to me, what's happened since I've been on the
Council is, is that there's been this lingering issue out there of monumentation and who's been dealing with it?
Not City Council. City Council's never dealt with it. We got one thing passed up to us with these big price
tags on it which we promptly gahoshed and sent some comments back on or whatever. But again, if we're
talking about ena3' monumentation to the city of Chanhassen, to me hey, the Council ought to provide some
direction up front before a consultant's even hired and get his act together and say here's what we think it should
be. That's what we're here for and then we should give the consultant the direction so it's a small task rather
than a large task and the HRA shouldn't even be involved in it as far as I can see, other than maybe reviewing
the elements that may tie into downtown. And I think this thing has gone totally awry because everybody's been
involved other than City Council and the City Council, at least as far as I've been on it, has never taken a firm
posit/on on what it should be and where it should be and I think that's what we should get down to doing and do
it and then go from there in terms of defining it. And that has nothing to do with staff. I think that's something
that we should quit passing the ball on or assuming that somebody else is doing because the bucks stops here
guys.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Then let's do it. My suggestion would be that we do something at the AVR site.
We do something at Market and we do something at CR 17. Some kind of natural element. See if we can get
some kind of, I don't know. Maple leaf with Chanhassen on the pedestrian bridge and I really don't want to see
any concrete or brick or whatever. I'd rather just leave it mural on those three separate sites. Can we give that
charge to Hoisington and have them design something?
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: Sum.
Councilman Senn: So you're saying which sites again now?
Mayor Chmiel: Each of the three that are shown in the green area.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: AVR, Market and CR 17.
Councilman Senn: Yeah. I have problems with AVR and CR 17. I mean again, I think you really should make
it central. I mean if you want to make those part of the park systems for another reason, I'll agree with you
100%. Or part of the trail system or something like that. But I don't think that's really how, I think where we
want to mark, in terms of monumental/on is the center.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: But we own the site at AVR and at Powers. We own some pieces of those
¢OlTiers.
Councilman Wing: We're going to landscape them anyway.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Right. We're going to landscape them anyway.
Councilman Senn: Well, and maybe, and maybe like the AVR one, at least my understanding is the main
ptulx~e of that is the trail system and a stopping point and the connection to the bridge. Well, to me it kind of
starts muddling it when we have to txy to, we're somehow frying to grasp what defining of this entry
monumentation. I mean .to me it's open space. To me it's part of a trail and a park system. I don't know.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: But ff we're going to do a natural element at Market, why not tie each of these
sites to that? Because it's going to be landscaped anyway.
Councilman Senn: Well because I think at Market you're talking about identifying Chanhassen in a tasteful but
obvious way. I don't see us really doing that at AVR or at CR 17.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well it marks the boundaries of downtown.
Councilman Senn: Well but, I mean Chanhassen, Chanhassen, Chanhassen? All within a half a mile area. To
me that seems kind of repetitive.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: We'll concentrate on the Market but we'll fie in the other two sites because we're
going to be doing something there anyway.
Councilman Wing: Yeah, I would support Colleen so there's two of us anyway. And I would, in addition, I'd
just, I happen to like monuments because I think there's permanence there. So I would even, and if there's just
me then there's no point in discussing it but I would tie a monument in someplace. I just, like what you guys at
HRA looked at at Market Boulevard. I thought that was a sharp deal with the monument and the trees and all
the landscaping. And I realize there was land acquisition and land and a lot of the land form had to be changed.
And a lot of money but ff that was toned down, I still like the idea of the permanence of that stone. I would
agree it's not appropriate elsewhere and these other comers are too diverse for that but I like Colleen's idea of
kind of rooming these up in a similar fashion with similar landscaping. I think I heard you say that.
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: What you're saying is both ends showing as it is, with the trees and whatever we plan on within
that specific area and having those two rooms on the east and west. But yet for the center, have something in it
specifically there to cause direction to saying hey, this is the entrance to the downtown. The main entrance.
Councilman Senn: My question is, how much should we spend on each one of them? I mean now we're talking
3 again. Is it $250,000.00 a piece again?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I don't think we're talking 3 though.
Councilman Mason: If I may.
Mayor Chmiel: Michael, shoot.
Councilman Mason: I think fa:st of all the monument. If you put a monument in, I think it's going to raise the
price a whole big bundle and I'm not saying we shouldn't necessarily look at that. What, I'm not hearing
Chanhassen, Chanhassen, Chanhassen. I'm hearing perhaps two really nicely landscaped sides and somehow the
middle one, those two sides being drawn in by the middle one.
Councilman Wing: More monumental...
Councilman Mason: Yeah. Be it monumental by a monument or just some sort of landscaping that really grabs
you. I don't see 3 monuments that say Chanhassen, Chanhassen, Chanhassen. Or even one monument that does
and I think we're looking at somehow that this room concept, landscaped natural perhaps. I mean that's kind of
what I'm hearing right now on all of this.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and I think you're right. What you're saying is, if we can put a high cluster of trees
which Richard would really thoroughly like, to something more moderate and show that, what the cost associated
with that and then tie in and focus on this other. But I still don't want to see a monument at Market Boulevard
for that $250,000.00. I think if we have something, it doesn't have to be vast and humongous as that one
showed before.
Councilman Wing: Do we still have the tape, the video tape of that, that we had seen? Remember the
University gave us that video imaging of Market and the trees coming in. I'd like to see that but also remember
that breakdown with the monument was I think 65, I mean correct me. $60,000.00 but then the cost came to the
gees, the land, filling in the land. The cost of $200,000.00 or more came from just the land and landscaping.
The monument was only $60,000.00. That was an enormous structure.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, soil correction if I remember was a big number in there too.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah but it was more than that,
Councilman Senn: Yeah, there was soil correction. It was a big number and all kinds of'things for the
monument. And stuff and it just, well and I think you have to be careful. I mean again, I'm not going to
disagree with anything that Michael said and I think we're all agreeing that there should be landscape elements
there but again, I think cost is a consideration. We can put the trees there. Well the next thing you know, we're
going to be talking about planters or we're going to be talking about benches or we're going to be _talking about
32
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
this. Well I'll tell you, it starts getting there real quick.
Mayor Chmiel: But that's where they can come in and tell us what those costs are going to be. Then we make
the decision of what we really want to see there.
Councilman Senn: Should we give them a wugh budget? I mean to me when you give a consultant direction,
you give them a rough budget. You don't just say...
Mayor Chmiel: You don't give them an open key.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, that's right
Mayor Chmiel: I'm saying, ask for what it would be with X number of trees. 50? 25? Whatever. And if that
is too much, well then come in with more of a moderate thing. Have one or the other. Colleen.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I agree with Mark. We should give them a rough budget
Mayor Chmiel: Well that's a-ue.
Councilman Wing: First of all, I would move Mike's suggestion. I would just move that to get that part settled.
Councilman Senn: Three landscaped elements with a monument at Market?
Councilman Wing: With a centralization with the Market Boulevard.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Perhaps a monument
Councilman Wing: Well yeah. The monument I'm saying in terms of, it could be...
Councilman Senn: But three landscaped areas with something additional or primary at Market
Mayor Chmiel: Right, okay. Do you have that?
Councilman Mason: So far so good.
Mayor Chmiel: A buck and a haft on each side. You know to throw out a dollar figure.
Councilman Senn: But I hate to ask the obvious question. What do we have in the budget for this? I mean I
shouldn't ask such dumb questions but
Councilman Mason: Takes all the fun out of it Mark.
Councilman Senn: Oh I know it does. I'm just curious. What have we got budgeted?
Don Ashworth: Do you recall the redevelopment plan currently shows as far as enlry monumentation.
$200,000.00, $300, $400?
Todd Gerhardt: The new plan for the Economic Development District in Hennepin County has got $660,000.00.
33
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Mayor Chmiel: Is that all? Golly.
Todd Gerhardt: That's not taking into account we've got to get 4 new buildings in town and take care...
Councilman Senn: Well that's kind of the end of that money so you can forget that.
Councilman Wing: If we were to put in 60 dry roots.
Mayor ChmieI: Okay. Throw out a figure. You heard what his figure was. Cut it in half. Cut in half again
and a half again and a half again.
Councilman Senn: Well, I'm going to go back to my earlier point. I am very willing to talk about a number
and some money in terms of developing some open spaces. But if you want me to buy off on a number like
$200, $400 or $600,000.00 relating to entry monuments, forget it. I'm not willing to do that. I'm willing to say
that, let's talk about some open areas and let's keep those, you know maybe look at some alternatives on those
open areas and some dollars. As far as entry monumentation goes, which seems to me what we're really talking
about is at Market, then let's put a budget together and say hey, less than 50 or less than something. I don't
know.
Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor. I guess this seems reasonable that you just come up with some, you need to take
these plans one step ftmher before you start talking really about budgets. And at least to get some different
concepts for what you could do in those areas and maybe that next one would take and say, this plan is going to
be more pricey than the next. But I think just to take and say, you know, $20,000,00. I don't know if yOU
could go through here and put shooting permits required at all three and stay within that budget.
Councilman Senn: No, but you do pay a consultant to design the project and then you mm around and pay him
to build it and he's paid on a percentage of the cost. You know so I mean there's a little bit of a self serving
function in here. I mean when we deal with it from a private standpoint, we go to the consultant and tell them
to design what he wants and then reduce it in half and give us a realistic price.
Councilman Mason: I guess I'm agreeing with what Don is saying and I know I saw Councilman Wing nodding
his head. I do, I have a lot of faith in what Hoisington-Koegler group has done with the city and I have a sense
by Mr. Schroeder, having to listen to all of this bmhaha tonight, knows what direction we want to go with the
money and I would certainly hope that HKGI would act accordingly when they put some things together. I
mean I guess I happen to.
Mayor Chmiel: Well I think you know where we're coming from basically from what you're hearing. And
that's something I think as to that discussion to come up with a conclusion. Show us something but let's not go
out in left field and stay there. Realistic is what we want. And what's realistic as far as dollars, we don't know
yet but just show us something.
Councilman Mason: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes Michael.
Councilman Mason: I just, and this doesn't have anything to do with. You know I-IRA I think rightfully so is
34
City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
coming under some scrutiny right now and I think that's positive. No, I really do. I think some questions have
been raised here that hopefully all members, and not just the two Council members that serve on HRA but all
HRA members will listen to. The flip side of that is, is that HRA meetings are open to the public just like any
meeting is here and with, I don't hear these comments at HRA meetings. And the other HR members are not
privy to these direct comments like I'm hearing and I think they're good comments from Council. You know
they're open to the public. We all know what's on those agendas and we all have the Minutes available to us.
And I'm a little, I guess I'm a little curious if people on Council are so concerned about what HRA is doing, I
don't, as a member of I-IRA, if I wasn't siring right here, I would not know the concern that Council has with
HRA. And I guess that's, I'll just. That's, I feel pretty strong.
Councilman Wing: But Mike I have shown up at numerous meetings and I have spoken but I feel that I'm
being over aggressive, nagging. I feel out of place and uncomfortable and I don't feel it's appropriate as a
Councilmember to stand up there as a Council member and start pointing fingers. I want you to do this and I
expect this and what are your priorities and... I might as well be on the HRA then. And some of the things I
brought up, I don't feel the Chairman has followed through on or kept tabs on. I read the Minutes but as I've
gone through them, very few things that I've addressed have come through. And you've got your own agenda
too. I mean it's not just mine so it's, even Planning Commission. And I think it's sort of their time and should
we be standing up there pointing fmgers directing and telling them what to do.
Councilman Mason: Well I don't think it's an issue of pointing fingers but I do think it's an issue of what
everyone in the city wants to see happen for the city.
Councilman Wing: It's too bad the public isn't there more.
Councilman Mason: Well yeah but, I agree with that.
Mayor Chmiel: Well maybe there are enough people out there listening or will be listening to get a little
stimulus to come in and say exactly what they feel.
Councilman Mason: I think there's something to be said for having these televised, to tell you the truth...
Don Ashworth: ...because that was one of the problems the HRA ran into. HGA came back with, they had a
plan for $8 million for this community center. They said no, we want you to establish a budget of this. And
let's move this and let's do that. Well those were $4,000.00 every time we did that. There's 15 of those
upstairs. That's how that $74,000.00 sits in that as a deficit for that downtown account.
Councilman Senn: Don, I understand that but why, I mean again. Why doesn't somebody come and ask. I
mean again, maybe there were 15 of them and 14 before I got here but I've seen 1 since I've been here and I'll
tell you. I was here all during 1993 and this is only 1993 we're talldng about here. 20 some thousand dollars.
This is 1993 fund transfer. Okay, to cover that. That's my understand from talking to the financial people so I
mean to me, whoa.
Don Ashworth: No, that is the 1993 transfer to close basically those accounts out but that's a running total of
the cost that have been charged to each of those two projects.
Councilman Senn: But you weren't running a negative fund balance in the account at the end of the year of a
previous year?.
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Don Ashworth: Sure did, If it's still an active project and you're anticipating that something's going to happen
with the thing, that's in effect.
Councilman Senn: Well I asked if that was I993 and I was told that that was 1993 and it was paying the
Banon-Aschman period. So I mean, I don't know beyond that.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. And I think we have to go on some of the things that Don is saying. I'd like to move
back to item (f). Mark on those dollars figures that you had questioned. I think many of those have been
answered.
3(F). APPROVE YEAR END CLOSINGS AND TRANSFERS.
Councilman Senn: The only one we've dealt with is enu'y monuments. I've heard nothing on the $75,000.00
almost for the community center behind Frontier or the expansions to City Hall so again, I mean if you want to
move ahead with this, that's frae but.
Mayor Chmiel: Well we could delete those two last ones.
Councilman Senn: If you would want to delete those 3 items.
Mayor Chmiel: Expansion of City Hall.
Councilman Wing: No because, well. Whenever Mark. I don't want to cut in on Mark here.
Mayor Chmiel: Well those are the two items that he suggested being removed.
Councilman Wing: I'm assuming that Don Ashworth, the City Manager. Well I'm going to speak for the Fire
Department. I hope that somewhere Don Ashwonh's thinking, he's putting aside money for $200,000.00 ftre
trucks because we've got a proposal coming in that's going to sUm you on stuff that's got to get done. And it's
not going to maybe happen. We'll let you decide how many years you want to rotate these u'ucks but they're
going to get rotated. But in the meanwhile we've got to make...but the point of that is, I hope that we're saying,
we probably are going to expand City Hall. I'm assuming that will happen. I'm hoping Don is putting money
aside and carrying that money forward and carrying that money forward. He's not spending it but when we
decide to do it, and when we decide to go, I'm assuming. This is the way I read it. That this is the money for
that?
DOn Ashworth: That's correct.
Councilman Wing: And I think it's good policy.
Councilman Senn: But Dick, my problem with that is, if we've got $560,000.00 of exlxa money right now to set
in that fund, then this Council ought to be looking at priorities in terms of how that 560 should be spent. It
should not automatically be wansferred over into a fund that's for the expansion of City Hall, which again this
Council has not had one discussion on. And I have real problems with that. Leave it sit in the general fund and
if that's the case and then let's ~_alk about priorities and let's transfer it to where we're talking about transferring
it.
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Don Ashworth: But that would be the worst mistake. Deloitte came in and basically told you, the auditor's
office is in the process of txying to rate cities. They have their number one priority is cash balances. You have
taken positions year after year to take those dollars. To move them into projects just exactly like Dick is
referring to. We did not have to get into the bad R word as it dealt with the expansion for public works. I want
to make sure that putting this city into a position that we do not have to go back out for a referendum for city
hall expansion. You're absolutely right. I don't know when that's going to occur. I don't know what that will
entail but if I can help ensure that we do, that we've got the dollars and that we don't have to go back to a
referendum, I'll strive to do that. And again, you should not leave that in the general fund. And this does
conform with your previous policies and it's shown. Most of those dollars you referred to are right out of the
budget.
Councilman Senn: I understand that Don but if we've got, we're also being told there aren't any monies to do
this. There aren't any money to do that. I mean if we've got 560, I'd much rather look at issues like, well are
there trails we should fund? Are there parks we should fund? Are there issues like that where we should be
funding now rather than creating a rainy day fund for a new city hall. And you know, we haven't even been
asked to look at those questions and again, I think that's the kind of direction the Council should be providing.
Mayor Chmiel: Well that's everybody's choice as to where those dollars should go and you may have a
different idea and Mike will have a different one and Dick and I.
Councilman Senn: Well then we can.vote on it.
Mayor Chmiel: That's right. And that's the point being. But I think with some of those dollar allocations, that
doesn't mean that those dollars are going to just automatically go. They're in that fund. They're set the?e for
that particular reason so that, as he said, when they come back to rate from the State, at least we have those
dollars out of there and that cash fund is not there. And that's the whole point of it.
Councilman Senn: Well, but then put it in a fund other than, there's a lot of funds you can put it into where it's
safe from a rate by the State without creating in effect all of a sudden kind of a almost pre-approved assumption
that a city hall expansion's going to happen.
Councilman Wing: Let's move it if we come up with a specific then I guess.
Mayor Chmiel: Well that's something too that Don and I have sat down and talked about. The Fire Department
start getting some of thOse dollar appropriations and maybe trying to fred some other ways of getting some of
those dollars into another slot. But I think that for what's there and the position that he has said, I would either,
if you don't want to move it, maybe someone else could move it then. That we continue where we're at and
accept this with clarifications. I think that is not there. That can be put into something that we can use
somewhere else.
Councilman Wing: I guess I, a lot of times, well first of ali I guess I will move this for discussion. Item 3(0.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Would there be a second?
Councilman Mason: Second.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay.
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Councilman Wing: A lot of times Mark brings these things up and my ears perk up because he's knowledgable
on this and he's, and I find myself listening. In this case I'm really comfortable that the City Manager's on top
of it. I just have the respect and support for him and I'm comfortable with what's happened here. With due
respect to Mark's comments.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and I don't dispute those but sometimes some of these commenls have put us in a hole
once in a while too where we didn't know how to get back out of where we were at. So I think we have to
have all of this down and know where the real world basically is before those things move ahead. So with that
there's a motion on the floor with a second.
Resolution #94.52: Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the Year End
Closings and Transfers. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay Don, item number 7. Or excuse me, 8. The debt study.
Don Ashworth: I passed out a copy of the debt study. I plan to have that onto our agenda 2 weeks from today.
It will be a shorter presentation and you've got 2 weeks to kind of look through it.
Councilman Wing: I can only say, I think the only one in my opinion that's capable reading this, well you and I
are kind of equals, is maybe Mark and maybe the Mayor. What about for us laymen? Can you read this or can
you help me? What do we do with this? Listen to your short version.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. All you have to do is if you have some real concerns with it, give him a call. Sit down.
Have it explained. If you have other concerns, check in with Jean. Jean will tell you the same thing.
Councilman Wing: Is it going to be a laymen's explanation of this?
Mayor Chmiel: There may be a laymen's explanation coming. Just so long as we don't lose it all, right?
Don Ashworth: Point of clarification. We pulled off special meeting dates to give us the ability to talk about
the entry monuments but we should either have a motion or go back and try to figure out.
Where was that at?
It was 3(t)).
Mayor Chmiel:
Don Ashworth:
Mayor Chmiel: We approved that. Oh that's right. You're right Roger. You're right. We have not adjourned
as yet so let us go right to 9(b).
Councilman Senn: 9 what?
Roger Knutson: 3(p).
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. As we moved it along.
(Taping of the meeting ended at this point in the discussion.)
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City Council Meeting - May 9, 1994
Action taken on item 3(p), which was setting work session dates for the Highway 5 corridor, was unclear and
will be clarified at the City Council work session on May 18, 1994.
The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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