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3 Halla Greens CITY OF CHANHASSEN 7700 Market Boulevard PO Box 147 Chanhassen, MN 55317 Administralion Phone 952.227.1100 Fax 952.227.1110 Building Inspections Phone: 952.227.1180 Fax: 952.227.1190 Engineering Phone: 952.227.1160 Fax: 952.2271170 Finance Phone: 952.227.1140 Fax: 952.227.1110 Park & Recreation Phone: 952.227.1120 Fax: 952.227.1110 Recreation Center 2310 Coulter Boulevard Phone: 952.227.1400 Fax: 952.227.1404 Planning & Natural Resources Phone: 952.227.1130 Fax 952.227.1110 .1 J 3. MEMORANDUM TO: Todd Gerhardt, City Manager FROM: Sharmeen AI-Jaff, Senior Planner DATE: March 20, 2006 SUBJ: Halla Greens - Site Plan Amendment and Conditional Use Permit Amendment for the construction of a golf course. Planning Case 05-39 On March 13, 2006, the City Council reviewed this item and tabled action on it. The applicant was directed to examine elements of the plan. The following are the different issues and the action taken by the applicant: 1. Club House: The City Council concluded that the design of the building was an improvement. No proposed changes. 2. Maintenance Building: The City Council una (120x68) maintenance building was oversized. a list of t. contents of the building (see attach the buildi at 40 squ mainten s an along the agreed that the requested icant was directed to submit licant revised the size of ~rrent1y approved ent will be stored rage area. 3. Ball Was Building. dispensing 4. Public Works 1591 Park Road Phone 952.227.1300 5. Fax: 952.227.1310 Senior Center Phone: 952.227.1125 Fax: 952.227.1110 Web Site www.ci.chanhassen.mn.us 6. 7. Hours of op from Civil Sunris beyond actual sunset, also March, 2006). val to op ourse (approximately one-half hour tached example for the month of 8. Lights: Staff requested the lcant submit two lighting options with photometrics. The City of Chanhassen · A growing community with clean lakes, Quality schools, a charming downtown, thriving businesses, winding trails, and beautiful parks. A great place to live, work, and play. Halla Greens March 20, 2006 Page 2 The first option reflects 4 foot high lights. The level of illumination is minimal leaving dark areas within the parking lot. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. "i.:...'L:..."":":L:..::L:..:L:...:i.:...:L:...:i.:...:i.:oI -.:J.:..:J.:..:J.:..:i..-. ;....:i.-:...:i:....:i:..- ---~---------------------------- IP I.... u ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ T21 ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ): :: :: :: :: .. :: :: :: :: P,.....I lpo;:a:"!'1 ...~ 4 Foot High Light fixture The shaded area is the extent of the illumination. The second option shows a mix of 15 foot and 4 foot high light fixtures. 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P:> ;S; S ::: ::: = (')0 ........rJ'] V(1)a(1)::: ::: ""lo... 0...0... ~ a 8-: -........""lo 0... 0...0 p:>P:> ~ ::: 0-' ~ "d 0 0 (JQ (1) 0 ""l ::: "d ;... ;...;... ~;... ;... ;... ;... ;...;........ "d "d"d (JQ"d "d "d "d "d"d ~ "d "d"d ::T "d "d "d "d "d "d ~ a a a -a a a a aa /"l -< -< -< 8' -< -< -< -< -< -< g P:> P:> P:> '" P:> P:> P:> P:> P:> P:> - ~ ~ ~ e~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ = ""l 0 ~ (1) ~ = rJ'] ........ Q. Vl ~ ..... -. o = Halla Greens March 20, 2006 Page 4 RECOMMENDA TION Staff recommends that the City Council adopt the following motions: CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT "The City Council approve an amendment to Conditional Use Permit 2003-4 CUP - Planning Case 05-39, for the construction of a golf course with a club house as shown in plans dated received January 6, 2006, with the following amendment to condition #9 of the existing conditional use permit and adding conditions 10, II and 12: 9. No exterior lighting shall be permitted with the exception of safety lights which includes parking lot lights and drive aisle lights. The height of the light pole may not exceed IS feet. All light fixtures must meet ordinance requirements. All lights with the exception of the light located in the center island of the parking lot be shut off one hour after sunset. 10. The applicant/owner/lessee shall apply pesticides only when needed. Use products that are most effective, target specific, and present the least hazards to people, wildlife, and the environment. II. A retail pro shop is permitted within the clubhouse. Retail operations shall not occupy more than 20% of one floor. Retail sales are limited to food, beverages, and golf-related items. 12. Hours of maintenance operation shall be limited to Civil Sunrise to Nautical Sunset." SITE PLAN REVIEW "The City Council approve an amendment to Site Plan Review 2003-7 SPR - Planning Case 05- 39, for the construction of a Club House, a Maintenance Building, a golf ball washing building and a lean-to for a golf course as shown in plans dated received January 6, 2006, with the following added conditions: I. Applicant shall increase landscape plantings to meet minimum requirements for parking lot trees. A revised landscape plan shall be submitted to the City and approved by staff prior to issuance of a building permit. 2. Applicant shall fully screen parking lots from adjacent roadways through the use ofberming or increased landscaping. 3. The applicant must submit detailed architectural plans for the maintenance building, golfball washing building, and lean-to that meet the design ordinance requirement. 4. Comply with all conditions of the MnDOT review letter dated November 23,2005. 5. The temporary 120 square-foot octagon building is permitted for a maximum of 12 months from the day the City Council approves this application or when the certificate of occupancy for the club house has been issued, whichever comes first. Halla Greens March 20, 2006 Page 5 6. The applicant is responsible for obtaining and complying with MnDOT and Carver County permits and approval on any grading that takes place along the north and west side of the property. 7. All disturbed areas are required to be restored with seed and mulch within two weeks of grading completion. 8. All plans must be signed by a professional civil engineer registered in the State of Minnesota. 9. The golf ball washing and golf ball dispensing building shall not exceed 100 square feet in area. 10. The maintenance building may not be used for "Halla Nursery" related items nor exceed 2,040 square feet in area. The outdoor storage area shall be fully screened by a board on board wooden fence. The height of the fence shall not exceed 611z feet. II. The trash enclosure located west of the maintenance building shall be constructed of materials similar to the club house building." ATTACHMENTS 1. Findings of Fact. 2. March 2006 calendar showing Civil Sunrise to Nautical (Twilight) Sunset times. 3. Ball Dispenser Building. 4. Maintenance Building. 5. Site Plan showing location of Maintenance and Ball Dispenser Buildings. 6. City Council minutes dated March 13,2006. g:lplanl200S planning caseslOS-39 halla greens 03-07 site plan amendmentlrevised staff report to council.doc CITY OF CHANHASSEN CARVER AND HENNEPIN COUNTIES, MINNESOTA FINDINGS OF FACT AND DECISION IN RE: Application of Don Halla requesting a Site Plan Amendment and conditional use permit amendment for a golf course: HALLA GREENS - Planning Case No. 05-39. On March 20,2006, the Chanhassen City Council met at its regularly scheduled meeting to consider the application of Don Halla for a conditional use permit amendment and site plan amendment for the property located at the southeast corner of the intersection of Great Plains Boulevard and Pioneer Trail. The Planning Commission conducted a public hearing on the applications which was preceded by published and mailed notice and has made recommendations to the City Council. The City Council makes the following: FINDINGS OF FACT I. The property is currently zoned Agricultural Estate District, A2. 2. The property is guided by the Land Use Plan for Residential - Large Lot. 3. The legal description of the property is: The NE 1J4 of the SW 1J4 of Section 25, Township 116, Range 23, Carver County, Minnesota ("subject property"). 4. On September 15, 2003, the City approved Conditional Use Permit 2003-4 and Site Plan 2003-7 SPR for a golf course on the subject property. The applicant now seeks amendments to the previous approvals. 5. The table below summarizes the proposed changes: PREVIOUSLY PROPOSED APPROVED Club House 40' x 60' 40'x 66' Outdoor seating areas 10' x 60' covered porch 13' 4" x 40' screened veranda on without screening and a each end of the building and a 1,413 sq ft patio 1,000 sq ft patio Maintenance building 30' x 60' 34' x 60' with enclosed outdoor storage area Ball N one Proposed 10' x 10' Ball dispensing and washing/ di spensing Pop machine building building 123914v06 RNK:r03/17/2006 I PREVIOUSLY PROPOSED APPROVED Shelter building N one Proposed 16' x 40' teaching shelter building. The use was originally approved without a shelter building and as an auxiliary use to the golf course. Lighting Lights attached to the Parking lot lights building Temporary structure N one Proposed Request for a temporary 12' octagon building to serve as customer and employee building. Building Material Wood was used as an Vinyl is proposed as the exterior exterior material for the material for all buildings. utility building Hours of Operation Sunrise to Sunset Civil Sunrise to Nautical Sunset (approx. 1Iz hour after Civil Sunset, also known as twilight). 6. The City Council shall issue such conditional use permit only if it finds that such use at the proposed location: a. Will not be detrimental to or endanger the public health, safety, comfort, convenience or general welfare of the neighborhood or city. b. Will be consistent with the objectives of the city's comprehensive plan and the zoning chapter. c. Will be designed, constructed, operated and maintained so to be compatible in appearance with the existing or intended character of the general vicinity and will not change the essential character of that area. d. Will not be hazardous or disturbing to existing or planned neighboring uses. e. Will be served adequately by essential public facilities and services, including streets, police and fire protection, drainage structures, refuse disposal, water and sewer systems and schools; or will be served adequately by such facilities and services provided by the persons or agencies responsible for the establishment of the proposed use. f. Will not create excessive requirements for public facilities and services and will not be detrimental to the economic welfare of the community. g. Will not involve uses, activities, processes, materials, equipment and conditions of operation that will be detrimental to any persons, property or the general welfare because of excessive production of traffic, noise, smoke, fumes, glare, odors, rodents, or trash. 123914v06 RNK:r03/17/2006 2 h. Will have vehicular approaches to the property which do not create traffic congestion or interfere with traffic or surrounding public thoroughfares. 1. Will not result in the destruction, loss or damage of solar access, natural, scenic or historic features of major significance. J. Will be aesthetically compatible with the area. k. Will not depreciate surrounding property values. 1. Will meet standards prescribed for certain uses as provided in Chapter 20, Article IV of the Chanhassen City Code. 7. In evaluating a site plan and building plan, the city shall consider the development's compliance with the following: a. Consistency with the elements and objectives of the city's development guides, including the comprehensive plan, official road mapping, and other plans that may be adopted; b. Consistency with this division; c. Preservation of the site in its natural state to the extent practicable by minimizing tree and soil removal and designing grade changes to be in keeping with the general appearance of the neighboring developed or developing areas; d. Creation of a harmonious relationship of building and open space with natural site features and with existing and future buildings having a visual relationship to the development; e. Creation of functional and harmonious design for structures and site features, with special attention to the following: I. An internal sense of order for the buildings and use on the site and provision of a desirable environment for occupants, visitors and general community; 2. The amount and location of open space and landscaping; 3. Materials, textures, colors and details of construction as an expression of the design concept and the compatibility of the same with adjacent and neighboring structures and uses; and 4. Vehicular and pedestrian circulation, including walkways, interior drives and parking in terms of location and number of access points to the public streets, width of interior drives and access points, general interior circulation, separation of pedestrian and vehicular traffic and arrangement and amount of parking. 123914v06 RNK:r03/17/2006 3 f. Protection of adjacent and neighboring properties through reasonable provision for surface water drainage, sound and sight buffers, preservation of views, light and air and those aspects of design not adequately covered by other regulations which may have substantial effects on neighboring land uses. 8. The proposed amendment to the Conditional Use Permit and Site Plan, meet ordinance requirements. DECISION The City Council approves the site plan and conditional use permit amendments applications. ADOPTED by the Chanhassen City Council this 20th day of March, 2006. ATTEST: CITY OF CHANHASSEN Todd Gerhardt, City Clerk/Manager Thomas A. 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IDI j ~ d C) -1\" C) ~i~ !'i CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING MARCH 13, 2006 HALLA GREENS (AKA CHANHASSEN SHORT COURSE), LOCATED ON THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD Public Present: Name Address David & Sharon Gatto Gaye Guyton David & Judy Walstad Sandy & Don Halla Dave Wondra T om Anderson Magdy & June Ebrahim Steve Shipley 9631 F oxford Road 10083 Great Plains Boulevard 10071 Great Plains Boulevard 660 I Mohawk Trail 9590 Foxford Road 9371 F oxford Road 521 Pineview Court 261 Eastwood Court Kate Aanenson: Thank you. The applicant before you tonight is requesting an amendment to the conditional use and site plan approval that was granted for a golf course located on Pioneer Trail and 101, on the southeast corner. The plan itself has changed since the original application. The cover part of your staff report was, what was originally approved and what the applicant, Mr. Halla is proposing. Instead of going through that, what I would like to do is if you turn the page is go through what Mr. Halla's requesting and what the staff is recommending. And with that, this did go to the Planning Commission. There was some ambiguity at the Planning Commission regarding the motion and I know that caused a little bit concern with the, with some of the neighbors but the Planning Commission did hold a public hearing February ih to review the project and the Planning Commission 4 to 2 voted to deny the requested amendments. So with that the staff took the lead to get the application where we felt it met the issues regarding, where we could attach reasonable conditions for a conditional use and the site plan. Have them make those modifications and that's what I'd like to spend some time going through. So on the north is the Pioneer Trail, and this would be the driveway coming in. The original club house itself was 44 by 66 and that's, or what Mr. Halla's requesting and that still is what we're recommending for approval. There was outdoor seating. It's been changed to kind of a veranda on each side, and the staff is supportive of that. There was a maintenance building and Mr. Halla's requesting a 68 by 120 with a 24 foot future. The staff has recommended denial of that. That size, but back to the 1,800 square foot that was previously approved. We think that's in excess of the size of this operation. Again the ball washing machine, we believe that can be incorporated into the maintenance building so we are recommending denial of that. There was a shelter building that they used for teaching and the staff is recommending approval of that shelter building and that was 16 by 40 feet. Lighting. The applicant wanted to use two different size of heights, 25 and 15. Staff is recommending 15 feet around the entire site. The lights themselves, I'm just showing this just, I know you can't read it but just for your edification. This is photometrics. This was submitted. We do require a half foot at the candle... anybody read it but I just want you to know we have reviewed that. But the lights themselves, there's lighting here. And there's lighting on the driveway coming here and then back towards the maintenance building and those we're recommending 15 feet. Again just for clarification city code does require parking lot lighting. I know we were asked by the residents that Bluff Creek Golf Course does not have them. That golf course predates most of us here that were involved in the city. The most recent golf course that the staff worked on, actually I worked on is the Rain, Snow, Shine Golf Course and that one does have parking lot lighting and that is consistent with city City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 ordinance, but actually this one we actually went down a little bit lower and I believe they even have that's IS feet which city ordinance allows 30 feet. So we did recommend IS feet overall. The applicant had requested some at 25 and some at IS. There was a request for a temporary structure, ... building to serve customers and employees building until that's complete. That's fine. Staff did recommend approval of that. And then the other one we had a concern with was the ribbed metal on the exterior building for the maintenance building and the ball washing. We recommended denial on that. Again we don't know how long the life of this building would be so we are making consistent with the city ordinance which requires non-metal and it would be used as an accent. And then the request of hours of operation. We're again going back to the original conditional use. Again fitting in with the neighborhood, and that request for the extended hours was denied. At II :00 it's dark so you couldn't be golfing then. So with that, again this is just a change. I'm not going to go through unless you have specific questions on the use of the building itself. If you turn to page, findings of the changes are all found throughout the staff report but the conditions itself then are, what we've done is taken the original site plan condition. Whatever shows up in the original conditions of approval for the site plan or the conditional use. Those conditions starting on page, the recommendations starting on page 18 would be in addition to those original conditions or shown as modified, if that makes sense. So that's what we are recommending for approval on the conditional use and the site plan itself. So with that I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Questions for staff. Councilman Lundquist: Kate, the, now I lost my page. Go to the lights first. If this was not a, anything more than a sunrise to sunset operation, would our ordinance still require, and I understand the safety element of the ordinance and that but if it' s a sunrise to sunset operation, would we need lights there? Kate Aanenson: Yeah and that's very similar to what we have at RSS. Sometimes people, there is a building, sometimes people go in and visit for a little bit afterwards. We have restrictions on what they can serve down there too but it's very similar and there's also parking lot lighting down there. Councilman Lundquist: Well Rain, Snow or Shine, I mean they're open when it's dark. You go in the winter time, they're open til 9:00 and it's dark at 5:30. So I mean that's not a. Kate Aanenson: Again I'll go back to what the city ordinance says. You know what we look at too is the safety issue too. Backing in... Todd Gerhardt: Yeah Mayor, council members. The lighting in the parking lot also acts as a security. If you don't have lights in the parking lot you could have individuals go in there at night, park and run around the golf course. By having lighting it provides security for our policemen as they drive by to see what's going on in the area. Golf courses are notorious for teenagers to hang out and do property damage so it also provides a security. Councilman Lundquist: On the other conditions as I read through here, we're requiring some berming and other stuff around the parking lot so that parking lot's not visible from the street and neighbors. 2 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Kate Aanenson: Well what's intended, you would still be able to see a car but really it's intended also to screen some of the car lights so you're not, those aren't shining on adjacent properties. Councilman Lundquist: So would that parking lot be readily visible from 101 and Pioneer? Kate Aanenson: I think you'd be able to see if there's a car in there but not necessarily the lights so you still could see the top of a car. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. Kate Aanenson: I believe you can pretty much right now so. Councilman Lundquist: Right. The extra, the 16 by 40 building, on that plan that you have in front of you. Show where that is proposed to go? Kate Aanenson: This is the larger storage building. Councilman Lundquist: No, not the 60, not the monster one. The 16 by 40 teaching shelter building. It may be in relation to where the club house is proposed to go. Kate Aanenson: It's a wing wall building and I don't see it on the plan. Erik Olson: Right, the drive.. .is right here. The little teaching shack would be on the west side of the driving range, approximately right around this area. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, it's open on the outside. Yeah, 3 sides. Councilman Lundquist: Like a RSS? Kate Aanenson: Correct. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. Okay. Other, and refresh my memory on the ordinance, what the lights. Do we have a minimum requirement for foot candles or height of lights or anything like that in the ordinance or does it just say, got to have some lights in the parking lot? Kate Aanenson: Well there is a photometrics here so we try to look that it's evenly distributed and then it drops at the half foot candle at the property line, which this does significantly before you get to that. The 30 foot, based on the character of the neighborhood, since he was already proposing 15 on a majority of them, we felt 15 would be consistent throughout there but we wouldn't have as much spill. We certainly understand that that's changing the neighborhood by having additional lighting there, and whether it's along the street lighting and that, those neighborhoods there. Councilman Lundquist: So does the ordinance require a minimum height of a light or is it just say we've got to have some lights. Kate Aanenson: Well the ordinance says 30 feet. Because he had. 3 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Councilman Lundquist: Minimum of 30 or maximum? Kate Aanenson: Maximum. Councilman Lundquist: And is there a minimum standard? Kate Aanenson: You know to get a parking lot light less than that might be, I'm not sure would be desirable or effective. Roger Knutson: Could just comment. It has to be a parking lot light to light the parking lot so presumably there's some minimum height. I don't know what it would be to light the parking lot. Kate Aanenson: Well and the other part of that is, we may have more poles to get the same amount of lighting so you might have the same illumination, or more illumination so it's a mathematical thing too. Councilman Lundquist: So there's a standard in there that talks about foot candles? I'm searching for something other than. Kate Aanenson: We tried that too. Tried to find some other way to mitigate that but you would actually, you may have more poles and more lights to try to get to that, if you want to 10 feet or something. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. So the standard in the ordinance is about, there's a maximum and then there's a standard for foot candles of illumination that are required? Kate Aanenson: Correct. That's the two variables. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. Mayor Furlong: And I guess to clarify, is that illumination requirement that maximum illumination in the parking lot or at the property line? Kate Aanenson: At the property line but there are industry standards and we go back to the literature to review that. We don't have that built in our code but we would work with Beth Hoiseth, our safety person to look at that, and that, going back to what city manager said, that's kind of the safety issue part of it. How we balance that. Councilwoman Tjomhom: Kate. Mayor Furlong: Other questions, thank you. Councilwoman Tjomhom: Yeah, when I was a new Planning Commissioner I think when this came on the first time so I have a history with this sort of. I don't remember discussions regarding lights at that point. I know there was discussion regarding wells and the watering of the course. Why wasn't that ever brought up or you know talked about back then? 4 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Kate Aanenson: Well I think that the applicant, as you can see by the request, as a different need and different desires than the original, the original applicant so. Councilwoman Tjornhom: And I don't want to put you in a spot but what different needs? I mean what's changed with this whole thing? Kate Aanenson: Well I think clearly one would be the building itself. If you look at what the original building looked like. Zoom in on that. A little bit more rustic. I think the current applicant has a little bit more highly stylized building so I think that would be some of it too. Councilwoman Tjornhom: In regards to lighting the parking lot? Kate Aanenson: No, in regards to the use itself. That's where I was going back to. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Oh, okay. Kate Aanenson: So this conditional use, and the site plan amendment, there's several things that are being requested. The applicant didn't want to stay with those same standards. So one would be the highly articulated building and assuming the additional parking to provide more people to come there. Councilwoman Tjornhom: And what are the club house hours? Kate Aanenson: Well the original request was for sunrise to sunset and then this applicant wanted to go to II :00 p.m.. Councilwoman Tjornhom: For the club house and the golf course or just? Kate Aanenson: Well there's no lights on the golf course. Councilwoman Tjornhom: So you can't golf at 11:00. Kate Aanenson: You could try but. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Well it wouldn't work, and I don't golf but I'm assuming... Kate Aanenson: Well, and that goes back to the building itself so, right. So if you can't golf, which is they'd be doing something at the building. Councilwoman Tjornhom: At the club house, that's what I'm trying to get at. Is that what brings the safety concerns and the needs for lights? Kate Aanenson: Well if you look at the conditions of approval, that's where we recommended denial of extension of hours because then you've got a segment of time between the, when you can't golf and. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Right, you have to go home when you're done golfing. 5 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Kate Aanenson: Yeah, you can lounge a little bit but pretty much that's the intent and that's the same condition that...a curfew that while they're golfing in the winter then it's not intended to be a club house or you know some other type of establishment. That it's really ancillary to the primary use which is the golf. So it's an opportunity to visit. Meet the pro, whatever but it's really intended to be part of the same, not a separate commercial type use. But it's related to golf. And that was the recommendation for not, for denying and not extending the hours. Councilwoman Tjomhom: Right. Mayor Furlong: Any other questions? Councilman Peterson, any questions at this point? Councilman Peterson: You know one of the things Kate was that we were originally intending to put lights on the building. Was the building in a different spot originally so that we were going to off light the parking lot with off the building? I mean I assume it would be because right now it wouldn't really be possible would it? Kate Aanenson: It would be difficult. I mean you could put them in the soffit over the door the way the. Councilman Peterson: But if we did that, the lighting would be more intrusive to the neighbors than it would with down lighting now right? Kate Aanenson: Right. I mean if you put it, if you put in under the soffit here, it would provide lighting just for that door otherwise yeah, you're right. It would be the height of the building at 27 feet, if you put somewhere, could be higher. Councilman Peterson: And you're going to put spots and it's just going to be a glaring thing in the night. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, and those tend to be, that is a nuisance, the calls that we get sometimes when a business goes next door that we have to work to get it shielded and pointed down. And then you might not get the park, or the area for protection that we're talking about before in the parking lot. Councilman Peterson: What kind of discussion did you have with the applicant regarding the maintenance building more than doubling in size? I'm confused by that. I don't know whether you've had any discussions or we can ask the applicant the same thing. Kate Aanenson: Sure. Well I think you know we always try to find that proportionality to say, if this is intended to be related to the golf course, it seems excessive for that size of a course and we kind of looked around to see what other size of maintenance buildings and it just seemed in excess of what you would need for this golf course. So we recommended that it be significantly smaller. Councilman Peterson: Okay. 6 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Councilman Lundquist: Kate, one more on the parking spaces. I mean as I drive by I guess I see that the parking lot's already there so, but it's not often that we have applicants come in with four, with even barely meeting the number of parking spaces and certainly not with 4 times. Any concerns from staff on all that extra hard cover when you know ordinances require or that's an applicant driven figure and that's how many people they can get out on the course at a time or? Kate Aanenson: Some of both, yeah. I don't think that, based on what they would consider the practice, that's what they felt they needed. We did put a condition in here regarding that there's no commercial kitchen so it's not being used for that type of facility. For that, but if there was some, if you had something after league or something like that where they did, they catered something in, I think that's kind of what they were looking at possibly too. Councilman Lundquist: Yeah, as I went this weekend down to Rain, Snow or Shine I think I counted 64 parking spots and I guess I'd look at it as a similar deal. I mean they've got a little short course there. They've got their little putt putt thing and the other stuff going on, and just one of those things, I wonder if the parking lot needs to be that, I mean it's there. It's already, it's approved. You know it's fine. I just wanted to know if you've got any, if staff had any concerns about all that extra hard cover when. Todd Gerhardt: Mayor, council. We constantly look at ways to try to reduce the impervious surface and you know they have a 45 acre site so my guess they're substantially below the minimum. We work with them in trying to determine what they need to operate the business and I guess that's what we agreed to. Mayor Furlong: I may have some follow up questions for staff after we hear from the applicant. Are there any other questions for staff at this point? If not, is the applicant here this evening? I know you are because you came up once already. Erik Olson: Good evening Mayor, council members. Fellow neighbors and citizens. My name is Erik Olson. I'm a resident of Chanhassen. I reside at 9855 Delphinium Lane. I'm also the manager of Halla Greens Golf Course. I'm here tonight to give you a brief history of our involvement with the course and then go over the issues about the buildings, the hours of operations, the lights. Hopefully we can get that straighten away tonight too. Just a brief history. About 6 years ago Don Halla leased his property out for the construction of a golf course. Back in November of 2004 the lease was essentially given back to Don. He had to decide between completing the construction of the course or letting it revert back to a tree farm, which is what it was originally. The decision was made by Don and his wife to basically go ahead with construction of the course and you know build something that the whole community can enjoy. By the time we got involved the previous lessee had already received all the people permits from the city and during the process of building and growing in the courses last year we came to realize that some changes were needed in order to basically improve the operation of this golf course and that's basically why we're here tonight. We've worked hard with the staff to try to fix all the different issues that we've been having. We're pleased that they like the new club house. The old one was basically you saw a picture of it, a 40 by 60 pole barn with cedar siding. Looks like something you'd tie a horse up to and go into a saloon basically. The new one is, it's just lightly larger. 40 by 66 and like staff said before, we'd have two enclosed porches on the east and west sides and it would be built using vinyl shake siding with simulated cedar textured siding. An example of the color and style that we would use and like I said before, staff has 7 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 given approval for this. Do want to bring out just one other picture, and you can see this a little bit better than the one that was already here but this is basically the design of the new club house. It's similar in style, looks to the Chaska Town Course club house, if any of you are familiar with that one. The maintenance building as approved is a 30 by 60 pole barn. Storage of equipment is really the main problem here. We would only be able to store about 25, maybe 30% of the equipment that we have inside and then the balance of it would have to be kept outside the maintenance building in an enclosed, fenced in area that's required basically by city code. This, even though it's outside and enclosed in a fence, you know you'll probably still get to see some of the equipment sitting back there. Not very attractive and it's also you know very damaging to the equipment itself, forcing it to sit outside in the elements all the time. What we proposed is a 68 by 120 foot metal pole barn building. The construction material that's similar to the one, Hazeltine Golf Club just built down the road as far as the metal that they used. This is an example here from the colors and the metal itself. Now in regards to the variance that we're requesting the use of metal on the maintenance building, I understand why the City wants the material to be wood. Wood looks very nice. But with the materials that we would use, and really the way the buildings are designed, we don't feel it would be a blight on the community in the slightest. In addition, we already have metal buildings around the entire property already. We don't feel that we're adding anything different or out of place to the surrounding community. There is both commercial and residential metal buildings around the site. The commercial ones are in the northwest corner of the property and west side of the property. Commercial, residential basically on all four sides already. You know in regards to the size a little bit too, I'd like to talk about most golf courses, if you go into their maintenance area, they have a lot of equipment sitting out. You know there's piles of dirt. There's piles of sand. There's you know equipment that doesn't work anymore sitting out in the yard basically, and with this increase in size basically we're allowing it all to be brought inside...1 know there's some concern brought up in some of the staff reports that the nursery, Don Halla's other business would be using part of this building to help out their endeavors over there and I would just like to stress that that wouldn't be the case at all. This is strictly golf course operation and equipment being used in the building. We also respectfully ask for two other buildings that weren't thought of before. One is a ball, staff refers to this as a ball washing building and that really isn't the correct definition. We can wash the balls in the maintenance building. That's not the problem at all. What we need is a building to house the ball dispenser for the range balls. Holds the baskets there. The balls themselves. Extra balls that we have. The washing can take place over in the maintenance side. That isn't a problem, but basically we need that building in order to operate and run the driving range. Without the club house built yet, you know that's really what we're planning on, or we're planning on building first in order to get this golf course open this spring. A driving range is always the first thing to open up on a golf course, but we need something to house the ball dispenser. Keep it safe at night. Keep it locked up. The other building is a lean-to teaching shack on the range to provide privacy and really safety for the golf pro and students. I pointed out earlier where it would go on the driving range. Both these buildings can be built using the vinyl siding that I showed here earlier. Something similar in design so everything looks nice and attractive. But you know if it helps matters we would be willing to eliminate the teaching shack structure in order to get approval for the ball dispensing building. The variance on the hours of operation is also very important to the success of this golf course. Right now we have approval of limiting our time of operations from sunrise to sunset. As you know there's a lot of light before the official sunrise and plenty of light after the official sunset. We would like to be able to conduct our business the exact same way every golf course near us does, as well as basically every golf course in America does. And let me explain a little bit what I mean by that. The first 8 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 tee time is usually at sunrise. The official sunrise time. Typically a half hour before that, the ground crew's out mowing, moving the holes on the greens. Putting the flags out. Things like that, and the last golfer that comes in, when they can no longer see the flight of their ball. I don't know if any of you are golfers here but if you're one of the last ones out on the tee time and you know it's getting toward dark and you don't want to feel like you've spent money for nothing. I mean you're staying out there and hitting that ball as long as possible until you basically can't see anymore. Behind that last golfer on the course, the ground crew's again is out trailing behind them. Removing the flag sticks from all the greens for the night. Picking up any garbage they see laying around the course so it's not flying around over night. Basically by doing things this way, three things are really accomplished. One, the grounds crew is kept safe from being injured by a ball. Two, the golfers aren't inconvenienced by and they're really kept safe from maintenance being done on the course while they're out there playing their round. And three, it allows us to maximize the usable playing time over the course of a day. We'd respectfully request that the sunrise to sunset definition be changed to say, light to dark or have a time stipulation attached. This 6:00 a.m. to II :00 p.m. that was listed was really given to the city staff as an example of something that we wanted to see as opposed to just sunrise to sunset. I mean that was never designed to be the exact times that we wanted to remain open. It was just meant as an example. So you know, the light to dark or even if we could have something like a half hour before sunrise. Half hour, hour after sunset. Something like that. This would basically allow us to compete fairly with our competition and keep our employees and customers safe. Lastly we request to be able to put in the parking lot lights for the safety of the employees, the customers, property itself. The 15 foot high poles that the staff recommends is perfectly acceptable to us. We don't have a problem with that. I know that some of the neighbors do have a lot of concerns about these lights and I've talked to David before and I'm sure that's why he's here tonight too is to see what the decision is on that and basically as an act of good faith and to show that we do want to be good neighbors, we'd be willing to withdraw the request for parking lot lights, although I don't know if city code allows us to do that or not. I mean that's something that you'll have to decide. This could be you know a wonderful community asset but you know we need your help basically on some of the variances with buildings and the longer hours of operations and possibly with the lights. How you decide to do that. I just want to thank you for your time and if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Questions for Mr. Olson. Councilman Lundquist: Mr. Olson, if you can, can you explain the original lessee, Mr. Saatzer, is he involved with the golf course anymore at all? Erik Olson: You know I'm not really privy to that information but I believe he's a small, has a small percentage of the investment on the course. From my understanding. Councilman Lundquist: So I'm curious that with the original proposal with Mr. Saatzer as the primary lessee and all of that, that Mr. Halla was fine with everything that was going on as long as Mr. Saatzer was paying the rent. Now that's not the case anymore. You don't feel like it's a viable, a viable business anymore? Erik Olson: Well from my original understanding, Don Halla's only involvement in the original proposal is he was strictly leasing the land to Ron Saatzer. And that's as far as that went. When he essentially gave back the lease to Don, how can I put this? The original plans, everything was 9 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 done to a minimum. Kind of just to get by. Donjust wanted to build something nicer. Bottom line. That's why you see the difference in the club house. The difference in the maintenance building. Instead of having a smaller building and having things left out you know, we get a bigger building and put everything inside so nothing is viewed. The hours of operation I don't think were really thought of before in that initial approval from Ron's side. When we were building it and looking at it, knowing how golf courses operate and I have a list if you want of the work start times for basically all the surrounding golf courses. When they start their play. When they end their play. When they're watering schedule is. It's all basically the same. Kind of coming in late to the approval process we just wanted to try to make some changes to better the course. Councilman Lundquist: So what's your thoughts on tee times? How often, what's the gap going to be between your tee times? Erik Olson: 8 minutes. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. And you think of a, I mean that's a pretty, you feel like that's a pretty aggressive tee time for a short course? Do you expect that you're going to have mostly beginners? You know all levels of play or what do you think is your primary target? Erik Olson: Well it's not like the 9 holes down at the bottom of the hill, the Rain, Snow, Shine Golf Zone I think is the other name he goes by. That course is, I think maybe the longest hole he has is 60 yards. So that's really designed for the absolute beginner. You know someone just starting out. This course is going to be more difficult. It's not really designed for that type of beginner. We'll have teaching pros available for beginners to learn and you know the driving range for them to practice on, but it would really be better for them to go down at the bottom of the hill if they want to playa round. This is designed more for you know the hacker can still go out and have fun on it. But if you're you know a first day of golf is your day that you're playing Halla Greens, you might not have that much fun. You might not have much fun on any course for that matter but, you know our course is going to be a challenge. Councilman Lundquist: What's the longest hole? It's 1,500 yards for 9 holes. Erik Olson: We have two par 4's. Both dog leg left's. The longest being 333 and then the other one I think is 318. 317. Something like that. Councilman Lundquist: So par 29? Erik Olson: Yes, it's par 29. Councilman Lundquist: Okay. The ball shed, whatever. The 32 by 20. Is that what that is? I mean as I walk around other golf courses, when I think of a driving range, I mean there's a thing like the size of a pop machine that you put the bucket under and then like two pop machine depths behind it where they store you know 500 or 600 baskets of balls. And so when I think of you know a place for all of that, I think you can, if you put 3 port-a-potties together it probably fits in that size so can you, you know help me understand why you think you need the size of that building to put a ball dispenser and some baskets in. 10 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Erik Olson: Sure. Basically going around to all the golf courses, I talked to the golf courses that had ranges and the person that was involved with the range and took a look at what they had as far as the building that stored their range balls. Their ball dispenser and for the most part you're right. They're maybe 15 by 15 side of a building at the, you know on the larger end. 15 by 20 maybe on a couple of them. Like maybe down by Deer Run I think has a pretty good size one. But talking with these people, the one thing they always wanted was for the building to be bigger for more storage. You're always buying more range balls. Range balls get lost. Stolen. Damaged so you're constantly having to have a new supply ofrange balls brought into the course. The best way is to have a whole bunch of balls already on the facility available to you instead of waiting for shipment. So with the size that we came up with, basically that was the size that all these other driving range managers ideally would have liked to have on their bench. You know for their use. So that's the size that we came up with. If it would help matters, I mean we'd be willing to sit down with staff and maybe come up with a different size or more appropriate size, if that makes you feel more comfortable. Councilman Lundquist: That's all I have. Mayor Furlong: Other questions? Councilman Peterson: Speaking on the same realm of building size, as I offered earlier. You spoke of storing stuff inside a maintenance building that you would normally have outside. Was that the assumption to the best of your knowledge when the original building was proposed at 30 by 60, that everything else be stored outside? Number two, you know I look at the schematic of the layout of the building, it looks like you're storing some golf carts inside and is that primarily why you want the extra space? What are you planning on putting in versus out? Erik Olson: Right now we do not have golf carts for the course. This larger building would basically house everything. From the fertilizers. Have a chemical room inside. Like I said before you know with the 30 by 60, I'm sure Ron was going to get what he could inside that size and you know, you're basically forced to leave the rest out. You know you're leaving your, we're going to have, a golf course has to have piles of soil for maintenance out on the course and replacing divots. We've got to have sand for top dressing the greens. Those piles are typically outside and they're typically covered with some sort oftarp. You want to keep them as dry as possible. It's just much easier to work with the material when it's dry as opposed to wet. Some of the stuff you can't work with it when it's wet so, we were envisioning all of this moving inside the building and basically removing anything out of sight from the public. Including in the future, if we choose to have golf carts available for our golfers, we'd have room inside the maintenance building then for storage of the carts overnight. Councilman Peterson: Okay, and what's the intent of the additional 24 feet? Is that anything specific in mind for that? Erik Olson: You know that would be probably for additional carts. I don't know offhand. Sandy Halla: When they're handicap they have to... so a normal person would probably want to do that. The people who wanted help would be able to do... Erik Olson: So additional golf carts basically is what that would be for. 11 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Councilman Peterson: Okay. Mayor Furlong: Question on the teaching shelter. I guess we're going building to building here. You had mentioned and again could you point out where, that's not on the, is that on the site plan that we were given or not? And if it' s not, if you could point where that is. Erik Olson: If you could zoom in... this area. This is the building right here. This is the west hand side. It's probably, this is the driving range tee box and from that tee box, I'm guessing here but it's maybe 20 yards away from that tee box. You'd have this side, this side and this side and then open in the front, with a roof on the top. Basically a lean-to and they're shooting out. Being used only for iron practice. Not for woods practice. They have to go back to the tee box. We don't have the room for them on that, but it's basically in that area and just provides a safe haven. Get them off and away from the other clientele using the driving range. Mayor Furlong: So the, to move them away or get them away from the other clientele using the driving range, that's just a preference spot on the course? Erik Olson: You know some of the golf pros like to do that. If they're on the tee box, say we section off an area. Mayor Furlong: The driving range? Erik Olson: Yeah. The driving range tee box and they're teaching. We have an area sectioned off for them and they maybe have 5-6 students there. If I'm trying to pick up some free lessons. Don't want to pay them to spend an hour with me, you know I might try to get as close to them as possible to pick up what information I can. Eavesdrop basically and so some of the pros like to basically have a separate teaching shack where they can teach in privacy. And because of the area that it's at, it'd have to be enclosed on the three sides just to provide safety. There is netting going to be installed along the side, but even with that netting we would still want it to be sided just for further protection. Mayor Furlong: Some of my other questions have been asked. You commented on them so, okay. Other questions at this point for the applicant? Okay. Very good. Thank you. Appreciate it. Erik Olson: Thank you. Mayor Furlong: There was a public hearing held at the Planning Commission and I don't want to repeat that this evening. At the same time if there are some residents or other interested parties that would like to provide some comment to the council based upon changes that occurred between the Planning Commission and now, I would certainly entertain... comment there as well. So if anybody would like to provide some comment, they can come forth at this point. State your name and address for. Dave Walstad: Good evening. My name is Dave Walstad. I live at 10071 Great Plains Boulevard, which is directly south at the end of the driving range. I just have a couple quick comments regarding hours of operation which to me is the main issue for me. It seems like the 12 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 applicant wants to have it both ways. First of all stating that it's light for so long before and after sunset, that they should be allowed to operate and then saying they need lights to provide safety. To me the reason for the lights are more safety for the building versus safety of personnel and I'm not sure if that issue is really the same. Are they allowed to light, for instance we allow parking lot lights, building lights, 15 feet tall, whatever height, does that mean they're allowed to operate 24 hours a day? Are they there for only on for timers? To shut off now after sunset. That would be something that I think should be considered. If it' s truly for people that are on the course, I think that can be restricted. And secondly, the other issue seems to be again, you mentioned in the previous hearing it was talked about residents and the areas that they were in being large lot and yes, you're very correct and that's why we bought our property was to maintain that type of atmosphere. Yes, we realize a golf course is a conditional use and that's permitted. However, we do wish to make sure that it's understood that this is not a commercially zoned area where some of the other golf courses might be operating in that type of zone. And so again the concern over the hours of operation was brought up significantly at the Planning Commission hearing and I don't want to belabor that. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Dave Walstad: But that's, I think that's all I need to say at this point. Mayor Furlong: Alright, thank you. Anybody else? Like to make comments. David Gatto: Good evening Mayor, council. My name's David Gatto. 9631 Foxford Road. I'm speaking on behalf of the 37 families that live on F oxford Road, on Pinecrest Road and what's the other one? Audience: Eastwood. David Gatto: Eastwood Court. And I'm going to not try to repeat what I said in the commission meeting, but what we're going to discuss tonight, it looks like what you're discussing tonight is really a substantial change and an expansion for a business and a business plan that wasn't, that hasn't really operated for one hour yet for the original proposed business. What we've approved so far, what the city's approved so far is really what I've heard folks say is a ma and pa, pop executive golf course and driving range, a small club house with outdoor seating. A reasonable maintenance building. We've got a big inconsistency with the staff and the conditional use permit did specifically talk about safety and lights. You talk about safety in the background narrative of the staff report. You talked about lighting in the executive summary under what was, and then under lighting it says lights attached at the building. So what I put in the e-mail to all you folks, the residents at Lake Riley Woods will hold the City responsible for those notifications and notices to us that you did address safety and you did address light and that's what it said it would be, and that's what everybody said would be great. Let's have this little golf course because that's all light and it's going to be present. With their change tonight, what I appreciate these folks saying is that they are, they're a bit flexible with regards to the parking lot lighting. If they're flexible with regards to the parking lot lighting, I think they're going to find that the residents just north of this golf course are going to be very flexible with regards to the things that we will support them in. These other things that they'd like to do now. We also have reasonable expectations the business would operate from sun up to sun down. So you permitted the above described business in a very special part of your city, and we've heard a lot of that 13 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 tonight. And we think this very special part and corner of our city ought to stay that way. It has rarity and character. It has nice homes. It has big lots, and it has strict association standards that we have enforced even ifit's been painful to some of us sometimes. We have dark. We have quiet nights out there, and no one thought much about this small corner of Chanhassen yet. I mean even to the point to where we don't have any sewer and water. The sewer and water is long went past us to the west and to the north, and to the south, and we are all eagerly awaiting in a couple years when the freeway opens and the commuter traffic, the east/west commuter traffic is pulled off of Pioneer Trail and that corner ofChanhassen's going to be pretty unique. Now what we're asked to consider is a business described plus a larger and more deluxe club house with more seating outside. A maintenance building that's more than 2 times with future expansion capabilities. A ball washing facility that's bigger than a large 3 car garage. I agree with you Brian. I've been around golf courses since I've been about this high and I'm not understanding that one myself, but I could be wrong. A teaching shelter 40 feet long. The staff approved it. They didn't even know where it was on the plan. A temporary shelter because the applicant didn't build his original permitted club house. He's worked on the course for nearly 2 years. We're now going to have potentially expanded hours. We have lots of extra lights. And we hear that they might want to sell beer in the future, so the original plan was a quiet day time business. It generally didn't impact our neighborhood. The new plan will physically affect the unique beauty and landscape of our neighborhood. The expanded hour and lights and capacity of people will impact the quiet and private nature of our neighborhood after dark. I'm sure I'll be able to hear people talking and yakking in those porches that are going to be each side of that club house. If they're drinking beer and carrying on after dark until II :00, I know we're going to hear them yakking and carrying on. I know that's going to impact my. . . and it's going to give me great concern for my safety. . . golf courses and parking lots attract potentially undesirable people. As it stands out there now and everybody knows, we've got our wives and our children that go out walking before the sun rises. After the sun sets. This couple here, I've seen them almost every night before this morning. They've been out after dark walking. So we really think that limits our enjoyment. Our comfort and these changes are going to negatively affect our property values out there. So as it stands now, and I again, the flexibility in the parking lot means a lot to us but as it stands now the larger club house we think is okay. We don't like the larger maintenance building. We don't like the outdoor seating area. We don't like the big ball washing building. We don't like the teacher shelter. We certainly don't like the parking lot lights. The temporary shelter, we noticed the stafflets them keep it up for a year. We don't understand that. We think that the City should give them their temporary shelter for about 4 months. That's about how long it will take to build a nice building. The approval that changes the hours, obviously no. We'd like the materials still made out of wood. So council, you're now asked to carefully consider that your own city's general issuing standards. You're number one, you know the changes in our opinion will most likely affect our safety, comfort, convenience and general welfare of our neighborhood and therefore the City. We noticed the staff report glosses right over that and says this doesn't affect it. Your number 3, the changes as proposed will change the essential character of our area. Your number 7, the changes will be detrimental because of traffic noise and light glare. Number 10. The changes are not aesthetically comparable with what we have out there now. And number II, it will depreciate my property value. So I thank you very much for listening to me and I want to know if you have any other questions for me. Mayor Furlong: Any questions? 14 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 David Gatto: Thanks very much for your time. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Anyone else? Gaye Guyton: Good evening. My name is Gaye Guyton and I also live kind of adjoining the golf course. 10083 Great Plains Boulevard. I'm here tonight as one of the people who was really supportive of this in the beginning. The idea was almost that the short course be a service to the community. A park. A place where kids and their parents and families and older people could come and play golf. Short 9 hole course. Very family friendly. Neighborhood friendly. The lighting was addressed at that point so that there'd be lights just on the outside of the building. Not big lights on the parking lot. The idea that we got from coming to these meetings when the original conditional use permit was put out was that this was not a big commercial venture. This was a service. This was for fun and this was to benefit the community. And I think, especially in light of the last meeting, which I won't go over but I just have heard such things that are concerning to me where this golf course is getting compared to Interlachen. To Hazeltine. To Minnekahda and to Deer Run. Those are big businesses that were planned for as a business. Not something that was coming into a residential neighborhood that was already existing, and it seems almost as kind of visions of grandeur for this little 9 hole golf course where it started to try and think that it is something that it's not. Where a country club would be. Where it would have longer hours of operation and need to be lighted because worried that people are going to be out on the course at night. So I would just ask that you please consider, or in light of the residents, what was originally planned that so many people were so excited about. How that's going to impact us. The fact that in the last meeting they talked about a fleet of lawnmowers starting out about 5:00 in the morning to be able to prepare the course for the day's golfers. That's nothing that we were you know ready for and to really limiting to sunrise to sunset so that the people who were there first can enjoy having a golf course near us but not be impacted negatively by the kinds of changes that they're making and we would just appreciate... so thank you very much. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Judy Walstad: Good evening. My name is Judy Walstad and I live at 10071 Great Plains Boulevard. Our home is on the south side of the golf course. Weare directly behind the driving range. Ijust have one question I'm going to ask and then two short comments. I can't remember the height of the new proposed club house, but I'm assuming that this upper part is not being used for any, it's just a one story. Okay. So it's not any business conducted on the top floors. I'm just asking because our house is tall and. It's like a one story usage building. Kate Aanenson: .. .32 feet to the top of the cupola. This right here is to 27. Some office space above.. . Judy Walstad: Okay. The other question, Ijust wanted to make a comment about Rain, Snow and Shine which is the golf course down on 212. I know they do have lights but I also know that they operate at dark and I also know that there are no residents around there that would impact that so it's a very convenient, and a desirable location for something of that nature. And the other comment I would just like to make is in the maintenance building. Depending on position of lighting, that could impact our homes. I would just like to ask the applicant to consider 15 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 minimal lighting and to have it possible not shining on the front of our yard. That's all so thank you for your time. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Sharon Gatto: Hello Mayor and council. Sharon Gatto, 9631 Foxford so directly north of the course. We've been very excited to have the course, and as it's been stated we're losing that enthusiasm due to change. But as a golfer I play par 3' s and executives all summer long once a week. I play on a foursome. So here's what I've experienced. First of all, I've never seen a teaching shelter on any of them, and I've taken some lessons on Braemar, which is a much larger course. They have maybe a tee box for the range. They have it set aside, or they have a couple holes we play on, but I've never seen a teaching shelter so I have to say from my experience that it's unusual. Also, going to the liquor that might come about. Yes, most of them sell liquor but when I'm the last off the course, they've shut it down. So they have regular hours ofliquor too. None of them usually go beyond dark, and sometimes I am playing the last off the course. I feel the teaching building might be a detriment if it was near Pioneer and seen, visibly seen by the public. So now it sounds like it's further back. That might have been established... but we do have a unique corner of Chanhassen. Bringing in the executive course they're in a sense intruding on the neighborhood so I feel they should be working in the best interest of the neighborhood and not in the best interest of their pocket books to try and get the most people in and the most amount of time and the most daylight hours. I think they need to be, blend in with the neighborhood residents stand out. And as far as, some of this sounds like we're in downtown Chan. Where we're in a business district and I'djust like you to recognize that we're still a neighborhood that was there first and we would like the blending in to become a part of us, and we will use it. Sitting out on the deck at night, we don't want to hear, we don't want to see lights. I mean that's why as you mentioned, we bought into this neighborhood. We bought into the large lots. The quietness and we would like to maintain that and we appreciate your help with that, thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Steve Shipley: My name is Steve Shipley. I live in Lake Riley Woods, at 261 Eastwood Court. I'm also a President and owner ofPOS Plus located at 8185 Upland Circle in Chanhassen. I had an experience about 5 years ago of building a property in Chan. I was green. I didn't know what was involved and I became accustomed very quickly on permits and all those different things that you had to have in order to build a building. I spent thousands of dollars on a building permit. My understanding is those dollars were used to pay city officials to come and do inspections. I also spent a lot, thousands of dollars for a bike and trail fee. So I'm pretty familiar with the building process. When you take a look at the lights that Mr. Halla's installed, I don't think he had a permit to do that. He just went ahead and did it. You take a look at some of the e- mails that were written, that are on record, and especially about a couple people here, he's not been a very good neighbor. He doesn't respect people's private driveways. He does not respect the dumping of certain materials, of which I'm not too sure of. So what I'm getting at is you're allowing a person to operate a business like this and he seems to be kind of a cowboy. That he does pretty much what he wants to do. So I would ask that you give that some consideration. Especially on the lights. I mean this was, the application was dated January 6th of 2006. Those things were put in last fall. We just kind of had, went ahead and did business on his own. Also, when I built my building I was required to have an area for garbage. I do not see any area on this 16 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 to hold garbage containers. Alright so, again we need continuity in what people are supposed to do so I'd just ask that you take that all into consideration. Thank you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Anybody else? I see we have a representative here from our Planning Commission, Mr. McDonald. Is there anything you'd like to follow up on after public comment here. The course of action that took place at the Planning Commission. Councilman Lundquist: Come and talk on our birthday Jerry. Mayor Furlong: Happy Birthday. Jerry McDonald: Thanks a lot. That's it, tell the whole city. I'm Jerry McDonald. I was the Acting Chair of the Planning Commission and I guess one of the things that happened at our meeting, same thing's happened at your meeting. We ended up running rather late that night and there were a lot of issues that came up. I think paramount to all of us looked at was this did seem to be a change from what was originally there. And we had some problems I think grasping what that was based on what the neighbors have told us. What the plans were. It did appear that this was more or less creeping commercialism within an area that was residential. We're very sensitive to that, as you're well aware. We went through this with the Reykjavik's thing. We've been through it a couple of times but there are certain neighborhoods that are unique within a city and we try to respect that. It was the same thing here. The motion, there was a lot of confusion about the motions, the way it came out. The intent after polling everybody on the commission, we all agreed to vote against any expansion and we probably went over what our jurisdiction was and we probably went over what we were allowed to do, but the intent was to turn it down. That's why the motion that came before, we did not vote on staff s motion because we rejected that. We came up with the lower lights. I think we came up with 4 foot height, and basically turned down most of the rest of the commercial application. The expansions and those things. Those motions failed before us. The only two people who voted for the motions were the gentleman who made the motion and... That was pretty much it. The rest of us were against it. That's what happened at the commission. After hearing all the comments from the neighborhood and everything such as that, you know I had made the comment that they actually needed to work with their neighbors because there was no support at the Planning Commission, which is unusual. Generally someone will come up and will support, there were compromises that were made back and forth. I'm glad to see today that they've decided to at least compromise on the lights but that was something that was missing at that meeting was the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. And I think we picked up on that as a commission and that was one of the reasons why we rejected the plans. It did, as I say, it got very confusing because it was almost midnight and I think that we probably were not as clear in our objections and why that we should have been but the bottom line of all this was that we did not see the support there. It appeared that this was something that was different from what was originally sold to everybody and we didn't understand why the changes were being made. That was not made clear to us and again there was no consensus within the neighborhood to support these changes so based upon that, that's why we rejected what staff had put together and we came up with a proposal that probably doesn't you know beat the mustard of what we should have done but the intent was that we didn't think the plans should go forward. If you have any questions about any particulars. Mayor Furlong: Thank you, any questions? Very good, thanks. 17 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Jerry McDonald: Thanks. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Lot of comments. Lot of information. I guess as we finish up here, we've heard a lot of public comments this evening that was consistent with and covered a lot of the areas covered in the public hearing as well, and I guess response from staff with that or with other things or information that you heard prior to your original report. Kate Aanenson: Well I guess, we agreed that the building should be smaller. I think we're all in concurrence with most the changes except for the driving, teaching area. That's fine if the council choose to remove that. We recommended down sizing the building. Mayor Furlong: Right. Kate Aanenson: We also felt the ball washing machine seemed excessive and did recommend denial of that. We also have the same concerns and have from the beginning. We recommended the denial of the extension of hours and I think the concern's valid that it might become kind of a quasi hangout as opposed to ancillary to a golf related use which is the intent of that. I think the one issue we still have disagreement on. Just some other thoughts I had taking notes, I guess for the square foot of the building, I think it'd be prudent to ask for what's, what has been done before with the city attorney, what's going inside the building. Even though we're going to have storage, if we're building it to put the sand in and the salt, we want to see what's going in. Even at the smaller size. I think it might be prudent to deal with what's being actually stored in the maintenance building so we can have some control over that. The 4 months for the temporary building. Typically a commercial building might take a little bit longer. That was the intent so I'd agree, it probably doesn't need to be 6 months. We can figure out a reasonable time. What that should be. A temporary building. Sounds like they want to get some revenue out of that yet this spring while they're building the other building so we can look at a reasonable timeframe for that. So really I think that, there's a lot of concurrence on. The square footage of the building itself, an extra veranda, I'll let the council decide on that but I think the other one that I still have concerns on, and I guess I'd ask for maybe the city attorney's input too and that would be having no parking lot lighting at all. We talked about a couple of things. One is security on the building and then you know trying to separate that. I did look at the photometrics and actually the brightest spot is right underneath those lights. It drops off pretty quickly when you get to the end of the parking lot. It's already at a half foot so the property line, you're at zero quite a ways in from the property line. Obviously there will be some lighting if we turn the lights off at 10:00. Then we still need some security lights. We will through a different type of security lighting, that would be something that we could look at to make sure there's nobody in there but still security in the building. We'd be willing to look at that with the Crime Prevention Specialist. Mayor Furlong: Okay quick question. Help me understand with regard to the lighting and the photometrics. When we speak to what can be seen at a certain point, a half candle. Is that the amount of illumination that's coming directly from the light itself or is that a reflective light off of? Kate Aanenson: It's coming from the light itself. Mayor Furlong: From the light itself. 18 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Kate Aanenson: Right. So really once you get to the edge of the parking lot and you're at a half a foot, once you get beyond that it drops off at a pretty much. Mayor Furlong: You say half a foot. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, half a foot candle. I'm sorry. Yeah, so it's dropping off. It's relatively, you know even when you, there's also ambient light. If you're downtown it's a lot different than you are out in an area that's isolated. For example, Bandimere Park has taller lights and so those are probably in excess of, they might be a little taller than 30 feet. I mean those are much higher. Much brighter. Different type of lighting. Maybe Lake Susan I guess would probably be a better one. When you're playing softball in the dark. It's a different type oflighting than we'd have for parking lot lighting because there you're trying to do a function underneath, but to separate the security at the time that the parking lot, and there were some other ways to look at security of the building. There's two approaches for people coming and going. Then also secure the building as the city manager mentioned. You want to make sure there's not, it's not an nuisance down there. Mayor Furlong: What causes the light noise, if you allow me to use that expression in terms of adjacent property owners? I mean obviously if a parking lot is lit, you'll be able to see what's lit. That's reflective light. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, there's a lot of interesting discussion on that. We actually, we have a former councilman that was very interested in that and spent a lot of time looking at too much light, and down in that area where there isn't a lot oflight, it's going to seem like a lot because it's already kind ofa dark area. Whereas when you're in the downtown, there's already street lights, parking lot lights, so the spillover is more, while it gets dark in certain areas, it's not the same so I think it's just the fact that there's no lights down there now. I believe that the nursery probably has lights on their buildings right now. On the 101 side. These people are on the north side of Pioneer and it seems that some of the people on Delphinium gets, we hear complaints on that too. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Thank you. Thoughts. Comments. Additional questions. Councilman Peterson: Where do you start? Mayor Furlong: Yeah. I'll get the discussion started here with what has been expressed I think accurately is that there's a change in scope in terms of how this golf course is anticipated to be operated versus what came through a couple years ago. We heard references and it was mentioned tonight by one of the residents that spoke, references to the town course and Hazeltine and Deer Run and others. Those are different levels of courses than I think what was, this community was originally discussed. Councilman Peterson: Well but is that really true because if they're going to put somebody on the course every 8 minutes, did that change from 2 years ago or a year ago? I would beg to differ but the number of people on the course hasn't changed. 19 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Councilwoman Tjornhom: Well but they're going to make a faster course where before it was, when I was on the Planning Commission it was supposed to be a teaching course for kids and a place for families to go and have fun and so now it sounds more intense where you'd better know how to golf. You'd better get going. There's no time to just kind of putz around and you know practice your swing or whatever. I think it probably has changed to a faster moving course. Councilman Lundquist: Your handicap is directly, adversely proportional to the length oftime to takes you to playa hole. Mayor Furlong: Is that a technical term? Councilman Peterson: But to my point, there may not be, there may be 50% more people there likely. It's maybe 10% more people, I don't know. Mayor Furlong: No, it may not be the number of people. I guess what I was referring to is the nature of the buildings. The maintenance. The, you know the amount of activity dealing with the operation of the course. Not necessarily the number of golfers going through. You know that's where I see a change and it is a function I think of the change in operation. Change of management ownership that's occurring here. Councilman Peterson: And that clearly has changed. I would agree with you on that. Should I continue or should. Mayor Furlong: That'd be fine. You know, we've got a number of issues before us and at some point it might make sense to I guess maybe start with some general thoughts and then go down the list and see where we are and if we're in agreement or not. Either with staffs recommendation. With the applicant's request. With the residents or Planning Commission. I mean we may be some back and forth, depending on where we are I think it makes sense to evaluate what the motions that we have existing and we might, you know if we're in agreement with all of staff s recommendation, then we have motions in the staff report tonight too to move forward. But there may be some other things so that's why I'm saying. You know maybe we start with some general comments and then make sure we get an understanding of where all of us are on each of the different items. Councilman Peterson: I can do some general comments. The balance that I struggled with is that this is, at the end of the day a business and we want to help businesses succeed within reason. And if this business is now asking for some changes that are reasonable, which is the ultimate question, to enhance the success and the viability of the business, then I think we need to consider that. So that being said, that's what I'm doing. I'm considering their request because I want to have a successful business in Chanhassen. I don't think anybody wants it to fail. So you know I'll kind of go through points as presented. The club house I don't think the 6 foot variance is substantial and you know I think we're getting a much higher quality building than I think this neighborhood better also so I certainly haven't got a problem with that. The outdoor seating area seems to be reasonable. The maintenance building seems to be unreasonable. You know I look at it and I look at the design of it, you know I see, I see a huge building for what they're talking about but yet if they're taking stuff from outside and putting it inside, and we get a high quality exterior of the building, then is that better? And that's something I want to hear more about is, you know I think everybody would agree, much rather have stuff inside stored out 20 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 of the view versus having stuff outside stored which they are certainly capable of doing. You know right now it's designed for 68 by 120. You've got, there's a 40 foot work bench. I kind of shake my head at that. There's supposed to be 10 golf carts in there. Without the expansion so it does seem to be over kill and I'm not of course an expert but just logic says that 68 by 120 with a 24 foot addition seems to be an unreasonable request. Now, what I don't know is, should it be 35 8 and can you accomplish that? I don't want to get into that. I'd rather have staff and the applicant figure that out but, and that may be having them spend more time presenting a succinct idea of what's inside and what's outside. Ifwe don't give them any more than the 30 by 60, where does that mean that's going to be outside? And ultimately the residents around there prefer it to be a bigger building and have less outside, so I don't think we're going to answer that tonight. Ball washing building. You know again that seems overly large and I think we can downsize that. And what we don't want to do is have an outhouse style out there either, so you want to have something that takes care of their needs but not, not necessarily granting them all their 30 by 24. The teaching shelter, you know I'll look for other comments on that. I don't know whether or not 16 by 40 certainly seems to be an awfully large building also. The temporary structure. I'll go back to lighting in a second. The temporary structure certainly is logical to ask for that and grant that. We can probably put in here something that 30 days after the CO granted on the main building, the other one has to be gone. Or whatever day that would be but you want to give them a building up until the time that their other one is ready. The building materials, I don't feel any reason to move away from our building standards on that one, particularly in the residential area. Hours of operation. I guess if you would have asked me to interpret sunrise to sunset, there's a meteorological definition to that and then there's a real definition. Even the FAA has a twilight definition too so, you know I would probably say a half hour before and after sunset and sunrise. I think that's actually the legal definition from an FAA standpoint. Defining twilight. I would assume that people would golf until they can't golf anymore. If sunset was at 8:57 that day, and you can still get a half hour of reasonable light, then they can be out golfing so, I think there's a reasonable summation that can be made there. To lighting, clearly don't like the 25 footers. You know I think, I think it would be reasonable to have some kind of lighting, whether it's low voltage landscape lighting or whether it's the 14 footers. You know I've historically been kind of biased. I don't like a lot oflight. I think our ordinance is probably more than what we need. I was the one that was the champion to turn off the street lights so I'm coming from the opposite extreme. But I think we can work on that and give something the residents can live with. The low voltage landscape lighting that can clearly light the parking lot can be a very attractive amenity and done well, as well as the 14 or 15 footers can look very nice too. If they're down lit and they're not going to be offensive to the neighborhood, and they'll certainly light the parking lot. You know in closing I think it's been brought up a couple different times. We can't forget that this is a commercial business going in a residential area and that's, you know that's the balance that we all respectfully have to take on tonight and, but we decided that we're going to allow this commercial business in here and we now we need to have it be successful. We need to have it look good and some of these requests are clearly reasonable. Some of them I think need some more work. And whether or not that means tabling it to get a better definition and request of what's inside and outside. What the lighting is and what it's going to look like. You know I'm certainly open to that. And I'm obviously open up to listening to what my fellow council people and mayor would have to say about it. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Other thoughts. 21 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Councilwoman Tjornhom: Well I thought about 10 minutes ago was I'd like to see this tabled also just because Mr. Johnson I think has said he was willing to compromise on some issues. Kind of a give and take thing to try and give a reasonable proposal going. But if that doesn't happen I have to say that I kind of took my, what I thought was important, you know I'm going to start at the top and I, for me it's maybe too simplistic to say that if you don't change your hours of operation, you keep them where they were originally placed, then you really don't need additional lighting because there really isn't that much of a safety concern then so, keep the hours where they're supposed to be then for me there is no lighting issue. Yeah, it is a business and I want it to be successful but when it first came in it wasn't necessarily built to be a big business. It was supposed to be just a mom and pop recreational golf course and I think that if these proposals that are before us now had come in 2 or 3 years ago, they would have been addressed and probably not, it would have been denied 4 years ago so I really go back to that time when I was there and I have to respect what we did there and I just always try to think about who, you know who was there first. You know the neighbors were there first. You bought your lots because it's quiet. It's dark. It's private and I have to respect that. If the golf course was there first and there was development coming in, I'd probably have a different view but that's kind of where I stand on these issues. I'm sorry but I really don't have a problem with the bigger maintenance building if it does keep junk from being in sight. I think your neighborhoods are better off having stuff enclosed. It looks neater. It looks cleaner. There's always an attempt for crime to come in and steal things or kids come in and drive where they do. So I guess for the building stuffIjust, I don't see it as that big ofa deal. The ball machine, I've never seen a ball washing building so I can not comment as to what it should look like or what it should be. You know I think if we hold the golf course to architectural standards and make the buildings look decent, Ijust don't see how you can have a problem with that basically. Making the club house bigger once again, I think the draft of what I saw, it's an improvement from what there is now. Someone said it, something you could put your pony up to and go have a beer or something. You know kind of something out of the wild west and I think we're probably more progressive in Chanhassen than that so I don't have a problem with making the club house bigger and the outside seating seems reasonable. We only have 3 months out of the year to enjoy the outside and I think we should be allowed to do it as much as we can. And the building material once again I just think we need to hold to those standards we set back 4 years ago and keep it looking neat and nice. That's what I have. Mayor Furlong: Okay, thank you. Councilman Lundquist: I'm kind of probably a unique situation. Mr. Saatzer first proposed this, he contacted me and so I was, spent several hours talking to, meeting with Mr. Saatzer. Helped facilitate that with the city staff so I'm very familiar with the original proposal. The vision behind it and what Ron was trying to do. And Bethany as you just said, I think the key point for me really is had this proposal that we were looking at now come through 2 years ago, I'm quite certain I would have voted against it so, that's really where I go back to is you know the unfortunate thing is that there's been some you know things business wise that have happened between the current applicant and the previous applicant, and you know things happen and things happen for reasons. At this point I don't feel obligated to approve any of the changes because you know those are decisions that are made outside of us and I think to make a decision like that and then come and say hey, I'm not going to be successful unless you give me these things is you know, it's really not our issue because we didn't force the change to begin with. I don't want to see a business fail, but you know we didn't cause the original issues so I don't feel compelled to 22 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 get in the middle of that. You know Mr. Shipley made some comments I think, there's a lot of stuff that goes on. There's a lot of history. There's a lot of things. When I look at this proposal I'm looking at it on the merits of the proposal, not with the parties that are involved or not involved. It's not required to be a good neighbor as a business. It's certainly encouraged and appreciated but it's not in any way required. When we look at the difference between, you know one thing we fact a lot of times is the who was there first and of course we have the famous not in my back yard. I mean every time we put an infill development in, you know we get 300 e- mails and calls from residents that don't want to see the wildlife and everything else destroyed that was you know living 50 feet down in their front yard before their house was built so, you know however that said, in this particular piece I'm not concerned with necessarily who was there first but with what the character of that neighborhood is. And when you look at things like large lights or 15 foot, 25 foot, whatever it is, you might have a half a candle, foot candle at the edge of it but you can't deny when you stand 500 feet away from the edge of that that you're going to see lights there. You're not going to be able to see the sky and the things the same so, so overall I keep going back to the major changes. It's not the original vision that was there. To go down specifically, I think the club house and the veranda is not that big of a deal. I'm okay with that. The maintenance building, I guess I'm kind of in the same place as Craig. 60 by 30, is that big enough? Well, you know maybe. Maybe not. 68 by 120. That seems a little bit excessive so is 1,800 the magic number? Is 2,000 the magic number? You know I don't know. I think again it all depends on what you're looking at. The ball washing and some of that stuff, I mean I think is just unreasonable. Unreasonably large for that scale of course. The teaching shelter I think if tastefully done, it seems to be in a location that's not too intrusive. I can be convinced. The lighting, I would say I'm either would lean towards ground, low voltage ground lighting to allow some visibility you know so that you can see if there's a person in there or if there's a car parked in there rather than pitch black. Just for safety of the people I would prefer to have I think lights, safety lights around the building and some of that and keep that area as dark as possible. I think our ordinance Kate as you stated doesn't require, we have maximums but not minimums and I really want that area to remain kind of dark and secluded and to have that overall character. But still be sensitive to the fact that you know, there's a business there. There's a wide open area there. If the deputy drives by or a resident just happens to be walking, you want to be able to see if there's something that doesn't look out of place there so, if there's a way to do that, but you know not make it intrusive. Temporary building. I think we want to be real careful there. Maybe put some stipulations on that building. Has to be on the parking lot or something so that we don't get into a hassle about you know, the building is there. We've given a Certificate of Occupancy and now we get into a scuffle about you know when did we come out? Are we going to have to walk in there with a crane and actually physically remove that or how that works so, let's be careful and put some conditions maybe to make that beneficial to that more to pull that out. Building materials, definitely not in favor of that variance. Hours of operation. Craig, I'm with you there. I think that reasonable, when I think of sunset to sundown, I think of you know if you can see with the naked eye without lights, that's reasonable to call it sunset, sun up to sunset. You know again to preserve the neighborhood. The character of the neighborhood, you know I think leaving it at sunrise to sunset is fine there so, and so just to summarize again, I think my biggest issue with this as I see it, as a vision of what we started with and what we're at now are two completely different things and that's where my biggest problem with the entire proposal is. There's been a change that was not initiated by the City. Was initiated by a lessee and an owner that's now initiated, you know pushing this change and it's considerably different than what that was and again had this come in 2 years ago, I would have 23 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 voted against it because it just doesn't fit that character of that neighborhood. Those are my comments. Mayor Furlong: Okay, we're three comments. Three different sides of the issue here so, maybe we'll get four and make a box. I think the number, a number of the comments that have been made already go back to and I think where Councilman Lundquist finished up is the change. It's different and the question is, is that difference, does it matter where the initial issue is? The City didn't have an issue? You know I travel to what's a reasonable use here in terms of whether the requests are meeting our ordinances and our comprehensive plans. Try to go back to that. I think that there have to be some reason and judgment in that and we'll go down the list and I think in some cases there are reasonable requests and other cases there are unreasonable ones. I was very pleased to hear tonight the applicant's offer to withdraw the lights in the parking lot. That was an issue that was clearly a struggle for some of the residents. Perhaps there's some compromise there that is in the offing now that did not exist at the Planning Commission meeting, which I think goes back to some of the comments we heard this evening was, some lack of cooperation between the applicant and the neighbors. And I think we said earlier, there's no requirement to do that. We have found it successful in the past when that occurs but there's no requirement to do that and so sometimes when that doesn't happen you get a little more choppy as you're going through the public process here in terms of the Planning Commission and City Council and I think we're witnessing that tonight. Overall you know what we're trying to do here and what I think we're coming with different perspectives and we heard it tonight too is the property owner, this is a conditional use with the property. A legal use to put a golf course in this land and they've got a right to operate their business, as most business owners do, and yet we've got the neighborhood there, the surrounding property owners that want to maintain their current lifestyle. Their quiet enjoyment and how do we balance that and try to minimize or eliminate any impacts of the neighbors, while at the same time providing the property owner to make sure they follow our ordinance and continue forward. That being said I think there's some judgments on these things that allow us to do some of that balancing. The club house I think is you know given what is being proposed, it's not significant. The significance there is in the design that I see and the look of it and I think that will likely be an improvement from a view standpoint, from a look. The maintenance building, I guess what I heard this evening I just don't, have not heard the justification for the need. I've heard some statements but I haven't heard anything that justifies the need for that. Just with the work that the staff has done to try to evaluate is this a reasonable request or not, which I think is a very good way to go about it, what do other golf courses have and this one was clearly significantly larger and Ijust can't, I'm not, I can't see it. Is the 1,800 enough? It was a couple years ago and while there is change, you know the thought went into and Councilman Lundquist you said, you're personally familiar with a number of discussions that took place. You know that a lot of thought went into the operation of a 9 hole executive course. Par what, 29. That's not a Hazeltine. It's not a Town Course. It's not one at Deer Run. It's not those. It's a different type of offering of golf than what's there. The ball wash building, I'm not looking for you know a couple ofbiffy's next to each other but from a size standpoint, you know that's what you see. You just don't, I can't get my arms around any justification for a building that size, nearly 800 square feet if I did my math right, for a piece of equipment that distributes buckets and balls. You know it's just, it's just not there. So I'm struggling with that. I agree with staff on that. There should, it should be incorporated. The shelter building, I mean it's far removed. I'm struggling with the justification for each of these. Based upon any sort of need. Ijust don't, Ijust can't get there. The temporary building, I agree with the comments made this evening and you know I think that should be allowed. We do that 24 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 with a number of property owners. We did that with Lifetime Fitness for example so they could start selling memberships before their clubhouse was built. Here, putting some restrictions on it, I think it was mentioned 30 days after occupancy or I think certain number of months from the approval makes some sense to require that and to make sure that's done. You know the building materials I think, I don't see any reason to change there. Hours of operation, we've had some discussion there. The concern that I heard more from residents there was the lawnmowers going early in the morning and people sticking around on the patio talking and working after night. It would seem to me to try to accommodate that by not, and I understand Councilman Peterson your thought about a half hour before, half hour after. That's pretty typical. Maybe what I would suggest for a compromise there is to start at sunrise, rather than half hour before so there's not lawnmowers out there running around before sunrise, but allow the half hour after sunset because it is still twilight, especially during the golfing season. You can see the ball and you keep hitting and you know for a 9 hole course, you're probably going to zip around it pretty quickly but that will allow somebody starting an hour or so before sunset to continue and finish up. And so I might throw that out as a potential balance there between the business owners desire to operate a business, which they should do, and the concern from some of the residents and neighbors with regard to noise or other problems with regard to that. I think I mentioned the lighting. It seems to me there can be some compromise there that will work and still provide some light. Anything I believe would have to be any, well it would have to be designed such that it's shielded. It'd have to be down lighting. Shielded, which I think was talked about here, but to find some way to minimize what's going to be seen. It's going to be different. It is, even lights on a building there is going to be different than what exists now. Lights on a building, even if they're shielded will generally be shining out. These lights will generally be shining down so perhaps there's some benefit to down lighting versus up lighting but it looks like there might be some compromise there, which I'd kind of like to see. So it's, this is a tough one because it is a change. It's a change in scope in how this business is going to be operated within their rights to operate a business, not only check that and balance that from a reasonableness standpoint given the neighbors and their rights to minimize any disruption to their enjoyment of their property. So I think those are my thoughts. Any follow-up? It seems to me, was I correct that everybody was generally consistent with the proposed clubhouse as we talked through? With that. I would keep that. The outdoor seating. Veranda with the patio generally okay with that as well. Maintenance building, I heard generally not okay but justify it. Ifwe can get some, if we know what's going in there from a justification standpoint and need, and we've got documented need to operate a 9 hole golf course, what's there and how they're planning to operate, I think you know 1,800 square feet may not be appropriate. Something bigger might work but, I mean is that generally or? Councilman Lundquist: Yeah. Mayor Furlong: Are you pretty firm on the 1,800? Councilman Lundquist: Well no. I mean that's not a magic number but I think my, if it gets much bigger than 1,800, you're going to get less and less support from me. The farther away that number gets from 1,800, the less support I'll have. Mayor Furlong: Kind of like lighting the property . Yep, no and I'm 100% with you on that. 100% with you. You know outside storage, we want to minimize that but to the extent that it's 25 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 not visible, it may be prudent to have some things stored outside as well. Ball washing, I didn't hear a lot of support for that. It's current size, is that correct? Councilman Lundquist: Absolutely... Mayor Furlong: Eliminate or coordinate that in with the existing building or different proximity and significantly reduce. Shelter building. Again, thoughts there. Clarify. Councilman Lundquist: I can go either way. I'm just, I mean in the spirit of compromise, I guess we can allow that. If it wasn't there, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Mayor Furlong: Sounds like with, it's far enough away or it's far enough towards the interior of the property that I don't think the residents have a significance about that. Lighting. I think we had 5 different opinions out of 4 of us on that one so, looking to do something there. It sounds like the applicant's willing to come up with some compromises and I think we'd like to pursue those. At the same time look at recognizing that some light, whether it's landscape light, I heard mentioned I think or something else might be something that might work. Temporary structure, I think you heard some thoughts and ideas on that. Is everybody generally consistent with that? Something more limiting than and/or clear as to the length oftime, likely shorter than what, the 12 months in the report. Building material I heard general support for what was, for no change there. And hours of operation, I didn't hear a lot of support for the request of 6:00 to 11:00. We talked about sunrise to sunset. Half hour before, half hour after. Is there some thoughts there or, we had 2 or 3 thoughts pulled out? Councilman Peterson: I'm not indifferent to what your recommendation was to do sunrise and then. Mayor Furlong: Half hour after sunset? Is that what, is that the FAA definition for twilight. Councilman Peterson: Well both. Morning because you can see before sunrise so. Mayor Furlong: Okay, understand. Councilman Peterson: It goes back to do we want mowing lawn at 6:00 a.m.? The answer's no. Mayor Furlong: Yeah, it's one thing to see. It's another thing to be, to hear and. Councilwoman Tjornhom: Do we have us the ordinance that regulates when they can be mowing or when people can start, commercial businesses can start mowing? I mean do they fall into that category? Councilman Lundquist: We let garbage trucks out before 7:00 in the morning. Kate Aanenson: We have a nuisance ordinance. Mayor Furlong: So let's take a look at that then and see what. Kate Aanenson: We'll apply those standards. 26 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Mayor Furlong: Give us some guidance there. Okay. Councilman Lundquist: Like I say, overall I would tend to be more restrictive on that than less. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Any other thoughts or comments? It sounds like here is we're moving towards a tabling so the staff can work with the applicant on a couple of these things and also make some modifications to the recommendation. Any other comments or thoughts or questions you have for clarification? Kate Aanenson: Point of order before you table. Our next regular meeting, as you just approved would be in a week. Mayor Furlong: Yes. Kate Aanenson: I'm not sure we can, we may be able to turn it around. Tomorrow. But otherwise. Mayor Furlong: Ifwe can't, are we running out of time? Kate Aanenson: Yeah... otherwise it will be pushed to April loth. I do want to get some comments from the sheriff's office. ... that's fine, I just want to make sure that the crime prevention specialist and the sheriff's office comment and a couple other things too. Mayor Furlong: That's fine. Kate Aanenson: But I'm just not sure of the turn around in one week so, I'd like to go to April loth, if that's okay with the applicant. Mayor Furlong: You know I think a lot of these issues, you know a little more thought is fine than try to push it through. I guess the question is, do we have the time to do that. Roger Knutson: I believe, according to the application it says they've waived the time lines. Maybe we just could have them confirm that they're okay with us taking this up, at this point until April 10th. Don Halla: Could we have an approval of the club house building so we could get construction going on that? The temporary. Roger Knutson: You really can't piecemeal it. Sandy Halla: Even when we've had a discussion, we'd be willing to do whatever it is that you needed... do what it is that you wanted us to do... Mayor Furlong: Ma' am, I'm sorry. Could you come up to the microphone and just give us your name and address. 27 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Sandy Halla: ... we knew that the house really was what we thought everybody would think would be the right size and that would be something that people would enjoy being in. And that wasn't overly done we didn't think... What we really worked on was trying to have a place that folks... to be able to do that so this particular thing, I don't think that we would change it any way whatsoever and it didn't sound like anybody else here would change it. That there wasn't any reason that. .. We really wanted this to be something that all the young children, and we thought. . . we've got grandchildren here and to go play golf at the age of 16 or whatever. .. So that it isn't the dollars that we're trying.. . and there's so many places that really aren't really affordable so that we were trying to do that. And as far as what we were talking about now with the equipment, I think that we felt when we came here, we didn't want a great big thing. We'll have to... and we wanted it to be so that people could use it... handicap and are getting a little older and want to have something there... So I think that anything that you think that we shouldn't be doing now, we're okay with it. Ifwe've gone to no lights, John Kosmas is gone right now, the architect that was here last time, and... what was okay to do... one person wanted it there and the next person didn't want it at all and as far as we're concerned, there's soft lights going down and if nobody gets hurt or killed, you know. . . that's all that really we're talking about. We don't need people out at night or early morning or whenever else it happens to be, so that that's not what we're looking for. ... okay, I think that's too big. Fine. I think that we didn't, I don't know how we got into that, we didn't think that actually... would be as important as the golf ball situation to be able to get golf balls back out there... If that's all it is... so that's all we are trying to look at it and so it isn't that we have to have anything... we want to do. What we consider a good place there and not what some people.. . how that would make it work with what people really wanted and so that's where we're at so we feel, feel free to say we don't want it or whatever else that would be helpfuL.. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Okay. Councilman Peterson: What I'm hearing is we can probably get this done by Monday. Kate, the only thing that seems to be, the struggle might be the police. Kate Aanenson: Yeah, we'll do our best to get it on there... Mayor Furlong: Let's see if we can get it done. Kate Aanenson: .. .you might not get it out in Wednesday's packet but we can commit to get it out and keep it on Monday, that's fine. Mayor Furlong: Well let's do what we can. It sounds like they want to, they're flexible and you've heard out comments and unfortunately we have a short turn around here but, which will put some strain on you but. Kate Aanenson: Ijust need to make something, say something for the record. We've had 2 or 3 different people working on 2 or 3 different opinions. Just heard another opinion now so I think it's prudent that we get it in writing as the City Attorney said and button down that it's all consistent and this is what happened at the Planning Commission. We're late, in the 11th hour so tabling I think is the prudent thing. 28 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Mayor Furlong: No, and that's where we're going because we want to make sure that we've got something that's clear that the applicant and the residents and the council know what we're talking about and what we're voting on so, I think that is important. We'll try to work as quickly as we can for the applicant but at the same time we've got to make sure that we're, that we're getting everything covered and so, if there is a delay we apologize for that but we want to make sure that we don't have confusion down the road either, which would not be good for anybody so. Sandy Halla: ...1 understand that... so they're not firing up the golf course carts... Mayor Furlong: Right, understand. Thank you. Anything else from staff? Any other comments from council? Todd Gerhardt: Ijust wanted to note one thing. The original plan did show the trash enclosures be screened so. Kate Aanenson: It is addressed in the staff report. And we'll follow up on those sort of things. Mayor Furlong: Alright, very good. Then at this point is there a motion to table? Roger Knutson: If you could just wait a moment. Kate Aanenson: We need just a signature. Mayor Furlong: Okay. Kate Aanenson: While we're waiting too then, when this staff report becomes available, you can go to the city's web site and download upgraded project and the new staff report will be done hopefully by the end of the week. Mayor Furlong: Okay, to the extent possible there might be a new cover memo but if we can red line the existing... so we can see changes. Kate Aanenson: Will do. Mayor Furlong: Excellent. I know you usually do but that way residents and the applicant as well, and the council members. David Gatto: Can we work as a task force with these folks? I mean as I hear them, when they're talking to the sheriff and it's going to go. I mean are we going to be able to work with these folks at all? Mayor Furlong: Well I think from a process standpoint certainly that's able. There's no requirement that the property owner work with the neighbors. I think what we heard tonight was an accommodation to some of the issues that the neighbors were raising. David Gatto: Well it'd be nice if we could come here and say we support it because otherwise we'll come back and otherwise you might... what we're considering doing if you pass it. 29 City Council Minutes - March 13,2006 Kate Aanenson: Ijust want to be clear, I think we understand they don't want lights. My point is I want to make sure that if the public safety says something, this council has that information. I think everybody understands that you don't want lights. David Gatto: We've said what we're going to say now and I mean I volunteered to be on a task force. We want to work with you folks. We want to. Kate Aanenson: Okay, no. We'd be happy to follow up on that. Get that information that we have prior to. Mayor Furlong: I mean there's nothing that precludes the applicant and the neighbors getting together and meeting if they want to. At the same time I think from a staff standpoint, which is what our objective here is tonight after all the comments we've seen, is to try to keep this process moving forward in a manner that's consistent with what we've heard and what we're trying to accomplish here for everybody and balancing that. So. David Gatto: And we're all in the community together. Mayor Furlong: Yes sir. David Gatto: We want to work with you. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Mr. Knutson, we're okay now? Roger Knutson: Yes we are. Mayor Furlong: To move forward if there is a desire to table. Is there a motion to table? Councilman Peterson: So moved. Mayor Furlong: Thank you. Is there a second? Councilwoman Tjomhom: Second. Mayor Furlong: Made and seconded. Councilman Peterson moved, Councilwoman Tjornhom seconded that the City Council table the Site Plan Amendment and variances for the construction of a golf course, Halla Greens, located on the southeast corner of Great Plains Boulevard and Pioneer Trail. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to O. Mayor Furlong: Thank you and thank you to everybody sticking around tonight and contributing to the discussion. 30