1n Approval of Minutes
In.
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CHANHASSEN PTY COUNCn..
REGULAR MEETING
SEPTEMBER 22, 1997
Mayor Maricinocalled the m:eeting to order at 6:37.1'"m. Tb.emeetlng wllSopenedwith ~ePtedge to the
Flag.
COUNCD..MplBERSPRESENT: Mayor Mancino, Councilman Betquist, Councilman Mason and
Councilman Senn
COUNClLMF;l\tB~~AJlSENT: Councilman Engel
STAI"F PRJSENT: Don Asbworth, RogetI(nutson, Kate Aanenscm, Charles Fotch, Todd Gerhardt,
Bob Generous, and Todd Hoffman
APPROVAL OFA~NDA: .Councilman Berquist moved,Counqilman~n $CConded to approve the
agenda .amended. to delereitertl4.5, Rezoning. Request t>y ValteySaJes ofC4~s_, pet theappljcant's
request, from the agenda. All voted in favotartd the motioncatried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCE~NTS: None.
~ONSENT AqENDA: Councilman Mason i:nOved;Counc~aerqui.$ecGnded to approve the
following Consent Agenda itefi1spursuant to tbeCity Mantl.ger~s tecom.rnen4atiol1$:
b. Approve Amendment to Ar'bQretum Business Park.I>evelopmontContt8Ct poo Agreel11ent, Steiner
Development, Project NO. 97-16.
d. Consider Request by Utility Systems of America for Exte$dedWorkHo~ofMonday"Friday,
7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., Arboretum Business Park Area StreetaJl4UtilityPhaseI Improvement
Project 97-1.
e. Resolution m..7f; Approve Renewal of GamblingPennit at the Backstretch Bar, 581 West 78th
Street, ChanhassenLioo'sClub.
g. Approve 1998 Police Contract with Carver County Sheriff's Depattment.
h. Amendment to City Code to.Prohibit Encroachment$QU.Setback$~thav~ been Granted for
Variances, Final Reading; and Approval of Sul1U11a1'Y~. t(>r.Pt,tblication Purposes.
i. Approval of Bills.
J. City Council Minutes dated Septetnber 8, 1997
Planning Commission Minutes dated September 3, 1991
Park & Recreation Commission Minutesdtted. AUgUst .~~. 1991
k. Amendment to City Code, Chapter 20, Article xxx. Towers and Antennas to AlIClW for
Temporary Mobile Te>'Wers, FirstReading.
1. 1\~~lu~D#9'7"71: Atml,l4l ReView, U~ ofSnowxnobile:lle$ioJ18J.;~ilhtItailttansit Route as a
Snowmobile Trail.. ., .
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
C. Councilman Berquist moved, CounellnnlB $enn_onded to table approval of the
Reassignment of,>>evelopmentCOIltrad/PUlJA.greement for Autu..Ridge .- and 2nd and
3rd Additions, D.R. Hotton, Project Nos. 95-5 and 96-4. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
VISITOR P~SENTA110N: REQ~ST F9RFVNDING~ C~SKA ~Q~nY HQCKEV
ASSOCIATION.
Kevin McShane: 600d evening Mayor Mancino, C()U11cil members. My name is Kevin McShane. I
reside at 180 South Shore Court in Chanhassen and I'm here tOtligbt representi'P:S our arena campaign.
I'm one of the tri-chairs of the campaign and with me tonight iSaIlOtbertri-cltair,R.andy Mueller. He'U
be part of our presentation. Artdour consultllUt Mark.Duey. And jU$t wanted to give you a brief ~p
of, some of you are familiar with where some of this h4s t>eenat bUt basicallytbiSbas been an effort
between the three communities, Chanhassen, Cbaska and Victoria, as well as our School District and as I
think everyone's aware, we did apply for and receive $250,000.00 in Mighty Ducks Funding for this
project. The overall project is estimated to be $2.25 million, and ofthat we've committed asa part of
both the Hockey Association and the Figure Skating families, to organize this ice arena effort and I do
stress that it is an ice arena verS\lS jU$t ahOckeyareJ1a. ~e is some differences there. This facility will
allow not only the Hockey Association toacquireso1'l'le additional ice, but the f'igureskaters as well.
There will be open ice times duringpnme time and the hours that the facility is used with the school
district is a benefit to all those children that fill out .those pby..edpods ~t the District that provide fQr
children. Basically the three communities have already made a coIJ:1l1litrnentas -apart of our Mighty
Ducks presentation. There were Q.lot of letters that were put tosetber. Mark Davey, our consultant,
assisted in that. Some of the feedback we received from tbeCc;nnmission that approves that is that it was
one of the beSt presentations they had everI'eceivedin terms of the overall packet. They do awards for
varying amounts. The maximum is 250 and we did receive that so we're very pleased. Combined with
what we've committed to raise another 250, that's a $500.?OOO.OO down payment if you will on a project
of $2.25. And I think. that's been teally unprecedented in our area for this Iqndof an effort and it really is
those five entities that will hopefully make all thishaPPCIl. I think as a part of the packet you received,
hopefully it was, the brochure . should have been inCluded and on a copy ofthe memo I received there was
a copy of the article in the Chaska Beraldtbat surnrnar~the recent developments for where we're at in
the project. We do hope to get underway this fall witb the constrUction. Hopefully early October. To do
that we want to try to have ast11uch of this committed.as p~sible. 1 think. in the article the City would
like us to see half of that 250 committed. Where we're'at in.tbe ~paip is.tbe fll'st 1*lplewe went to
were the parents in both the Figure Skating Association and the CCH.A.. The next step is to solicit the
High School, both JV and senior players and their families. The City of Chaska has committed to put the
land in. They've also done bOnding for the project. The City ofVictona. l think you're awarehB$ tnade
a $30,000.00 commitment and we're looking to visit with ChanhasseJfto participate as well. One of the
formulas that we've looked at is the number of Cbanbassen tam.il.~ that are in the association as well as
the other two communities and basically the breakdown is Victotiahas about 100/0 of the ldds in the
program, Chanhassen abOut 4()oJc. and Chaska basicallytbe differenQe. And so that's part of how we.'ve
come up with what our request will be from the City. I'd . like to turn it over to Randy Mueller at this
point to give a recap ofthe project itself and then we'll wrap up in just a minute.
Randy Ml.lcller: ~yor. CQuncil. Thanks aigain for invitin, us. As Kevin mentioned, a lot of activity has
goneinteanYat~v.lY~l'*iOCl()ftime .and justa fan~c~uaityp1'()ject~f~itb1~
communities; What lwanttosbare wtthyou here, a little bit of the ~.ript:t:l_fortbesecond ice
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
arena to be added to the Chaska Community Center. Just give you again very high level background of
why we're constructing what we're really calling a practice arena. This is not a full game arena with all
the bells and whistles. Primarily a practice arena to keep costs low and really address the ice shortage
problem that our youth athletes in the community suffer really during the difficult months which really
begin now all the way through the end of March. Basically it's going to run, hopefully you can hear me,
parallel to the existing sheet of ice. We'll still use the common entryway. .. be able to turn and walk
through the first sheet and then into the second arena itself. So as a result of this renovation project, we
will be moving the resurfacing equipment, the zamboni itself... As you can see over here, the team locker
rooms are greatly expanded over the existing team rooms. Right now that's a big problem with... Have
expanded the size of each of those rooms. Where possible, I think the engineers have done a very good
job. We will leverage the eXisting ice equipment and infrastructure and the dehumidification
equipment.. . and anything we can do to keep costs down to an absolute minimum. The plans are, in some
future point in time. Not as part of our fundraising campaign...cost of the project, we will have the
capability to have 140 seats in the new practice arena. And again this is an arena that we still are going
to be very proud of.. . elaborate game arena but games and other types of events can be hosted. Spectator
seating is allowed for up to about 140 people. At one time, just again a little background. They were
looking at building a second arena right here. The key problem is that. .. parking area, this is a
problem...as well as we're gettmg awfully close...so all and all this appeared to have a better flow.
Running it parallel. The bid process has actually been drafted. I know the bids are in the process of
bemg released.. .except to move very aggressively. Hopefully getting the footings in early here within
the month of October-November, prior to the cold wmter months and then hopefully if everything goes
according to plans, have the arena somewhat operational by mid to late summer and hopefully next year
have the practice arena available for the commumty use. Right now Just a little bit of the background and
a httle history and I think this was brought to your attention last time I was here and gave the
presentation. Because we have basically a supply and demand problem, a number of our youth athletes
today, we travel to New Prague. We're going to be traveling to Le Sueur. Anywhere we can basically
find ice which isn't available in the commumty. This is part of the reason why we're very strong in
promotmg this second sheet of ice. Coupled with the fact that over the last two years, outdoor ice has not
been that suitable of an option given to the winter weather extremes of the community we live in. And
plus just the need for quality indoor ice for figure skaters and for hockey teams to practice according to
plan. One thing that you may find of interest. Most of the other school problems within the distnct that
our kids, our athletes compete in are in the process of building really their third sheet of ice. Chaska is
the only community in the district that has one sheet, with the exception of Richfield. Again some are
buildmg their third and also entertaining their fourth sheets of ice and according to school district
projections, if the trend continues, this is an area that is highly desirable to live. Very quickly, even the
second sheet of ice will be limited in servicing the young athletes of the community and we should
already be thinking about longer term, our third sheet of ice so it's not like we're entering into this you
know having a lot of excess ice available With the construction of the second sheet of ice arena but
actually making up for a deficit where we're at today. So anyway with that, that's a little bit of the arena
itself. A little background. I'll turn it back over to Kevin.
Kevin McShane: Just a couple other comments on the campaign itself. We do intend to go to the
community at large with this and we've put together a volunteer group out of both the figure skating and
hockey folks. And we felt that one of the things that would help with the success of that, to make sure
that we have covered all the communities that are involved, all the associations and to get as many
commitments in place as we can, we've asked for a quick response to our solicitation to the hockey
families. Those are now coming in. We're doing the same with the high school people and we want to
be able to go to the corporate folks in our communities and to give them an idea of the level of
commitment we have and the more of these people and entities that we have in place, the better. The
other thing is, as far as the timing, we're anxious to get that done because most companies are now in the
3
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
process of doing their budgeting for next year and beyond. We did have a company that's already made a
commitment because their process is ahead of some of the others and they've already budgeted for that
and we've received their pledge over a two year period. It's a $10,000.00 pledge. $5,000.00 a year for
two years. We're asking for a three year pledge in our campaign and I know in our case, at our company
we start that process in late September and try to have it wrapped up at the end of October so we're
anxious to get the process moving so that we can hit those people at the right time and get considered for
the next three years as far as a commitment. What we're asking for from our city in Chanhassen is a
$40,000.00 commitment over three years and basically part of that is based on a formula of the number of
families that are involved in the program and that's one of the ways we came up with that number. And
as I look at it, and I think I mentioned to someone before, it's a bit of a twofer in that, with the Mighty
Ducks money, the money that we're able to raise is basically a match against that so to come in with a
$500,000.00 commitment in a project like this and with the commitment ofthe Hockey Association for
the hours that they've guaranteed that they will buy and the lease with the school district it really, it
makes this whole project work from not only covering the operating costs, estimated operating costs, but
the estimated debt service as well and I think that's important that this becomes a self funding project
from that standpoint. So with that I thank you for your time.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any questions? Kevin, if you want to stay up for a minute and we may
have some questions.
Kevin McShane: I'd be glad to.
Councilman Senn: Point of clarification. $40,000.00 over three years. Are you saying you're asking for
$120,000.00 or you're asking for?
Kevin McShane: Pardon me. $40,000.00 a year for three years for a total of 120.
Councilman Senn: So you're asking for $120,000.00?
Kevin McShane: Correct. Over three years.
Mayor Mancino: So approximately half of the 250 you're trying to raise.
Kevin McShane: Approximately, yes.
Councilman Senn: Okay. And based on the amount of kids we have in the program, that's roughly over
a thousand and some odd dollars per kid you want us to kick in.
Kevin McShane: That sounds correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay. Question. Ifwe would be so inclined to consider or do such a thing in that we
have an equal number of kids in our community in the Minnetonka ice program, would you make 20% of
the regulation and prime ice time in this center available to the Minnetonka ice program?
Kevin McShane: The City of Chaska.
Councilman Senn: Of our 40% is where my math is coming from.
Kevin McShane: Well the City ofChaska would need to, I mean they're the ones that own and operate
the arena and I know that they're anxious to lease or rent as much ofthat time as possible. And I know
that they've committed to the open skate, to not have a differential between the communities. Currently
there has been in terms of the cost for a resident and non-resident. They've agreed to waive that for all
the residents of the three communities going forward. And the Minnetonka Hockey Association could
certainly approach Chaska and purchase whatever's available.
Councilman Senn: And that would be available on the same basis.
Kevin McShane: Maybe Mark, do you want to address that as well.
4
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mark Davey: Good evening. My name is Mark Davey and I'm working as a consultant to thIS campaign.
I just would like to go back and answer that question, $1,000.00 per individual athlete playing in the
program. If the arena only lasted one year, that would be true. It'd be $1,000.00 an athlete, except this
arena will be there for 30 years so a gift from the City of Chanhassen over a 3 year period to this program
will not only cover the athletes this year, next year, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years out. So on a one year
basis it's $1,000.00, but on the length of the arena being there and the commitment that Chaska has made
to Chanhassen making a commitment, I would think you'd be talking much, much less than that. Maybe
like $10.00 a student that would participate over the next 20 years. The other question was about a
commitment on ice time. The Hockey Association has worked really hard with the City of Chaska to get
a commitment from them to give available ice time to free skate for the young people of Chanhassen who
have a Chanhassen address. I think as far as the hockey associations are concerned, I'm sure that Chaska
will do everything possible so that Minnetonka would have available some skating, or skating time that
they have available. But to ask them to guarantee Minnetonka, you'd have to work with Chaska to do
that. I mean they'd have to answer that question. .. .ofhow much of Minnetonka is part ofChanhassen
and I don't know how they'd figure that out.
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, half of our kids that play hockey are in the Minnetonka Hockey Association.
Mark Davey: So you could.. .half of those teams can practice but the rest. I'm sure that they would work
it out. I mean they're eager to work with you. But those guarantees would have to come...
Mayor Mancino: Kevin, is there a set time. Is there peak time, so many hours of ice that the Chaska
Community Hockey Association has been told that you will have from the City ofChaska? And what
are those times, etc.?
Randy Mueller: Well the prime tIme ice available for our youth athletes really, they look at starting
about 6:00 going till 10:00, Monday through Friday and really going from 6:00 in the morning until
10:00 at night on Saturday and Sunday. If you look at those hours consIdered pnme time Ice over that 6
to 7 month period, you really have about 1,200 hours of ice that one rink can serve. Clearly the high
school athletes, and keep in mind we are very much supportive of the girls, a new girls high school
program and we're very eXCIted about the new coach and this is new for our community because Eden
Prairie no longer is supporting our girl athletes so, but anyway. They will consume the ice prior to prime
time such as you know, beginning at 3:00 to 6:00. That's where their practice will come in. Prior to.
Mayor Mancino: So the women have to take off prime time hours?
Randy Mueller: Women and boys. Both are consuming really those hours of ice prior to you know 6:00
If you will, until 10:00. Yeah, and there's some unique things that are gomg on that the school district is
trymg to do to accommodate additional programs like our girls high school program, including altenng
that last hour of education if possible so they can get in to use the one sheet of ice. So what does that
mean? If You look at what we have procured, and again this is an estimate if you will that the Youth
Hockey Association I believe has bought, give or take. We're buying between 600 and 700 hours of ice.
Mayor Mancino: So out of the 1,200 prime time, you're buying between 600 and 700?
Randy Mueller: 700 roughly and 500 hours of prime time, keep in mind, we can't consume it all. I mean
we have a community to serve as well. 500 of those hours go to a combination of open skate. A
combination of figure skating club and other community needs so, basically the 1,200 hours are
consumed. Based on the task force that I was involved with looking at growth projections of young kids
moving to this area, the growth in our figure skating club, the growth in girls hockey as well as men's
hockey. I mean we could consume 1,200 hours ourselves. All right, right now we could consume it all
5
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
which would leave no time for anyone else. Now with the second sheet of ice, does that free up
potentially some hours that could be sold to the Minnetonka Hockey Association? I believe it may, and I
know the City ofChaska, you know would certainly entertain that. Right now we'd like to get all those
hours back that we're paying the communities of New Prague and Le Sueur because we had to go buy
hours from them because there's none available.
Mayor Mancino: Sure, and Minnetonka does too.
Randy Mueller: Just like Minnetonka, and they've got the same issue so. The reality of it is, even with
the second sheet of ice, you know we're trying to address a demand problem for both our youth hockey
association and clearly Minnetonka's facing the same issue. We're operating in a deficit position now.
Not building a surplus. But again, I have found the City ofChaska willing and open and able, I mean
that's part of this whole project to work with various communities and I don't see any reason why they
wouldn't work with the Minnetonka Hockey Association to help them out as well. I would be hard
pressed to do that.
Mayor Mancino: And that's a discussion we need to have with them then.
Randy Mueller: Yeah, and they run the ice. They operate the ice and that's also why we're very excited
about this second sheet there. I mean this is a very, scheduling of ice is very difficult and complex and I
think they've proven they've done a pretty good job of that. And they're selling us the ice by the way at
below market rates. You notIce at $110.00 an hour, that may seem high but to keep the costs of our
young athletes to participate, that's actually below market compared to what they could sell it to Eden
Prairie or anyone else that would be willing to buy it at substantially more an hour.
Councilman Senn: I want to understand what you said before so I don't misunderstand it I guess. But
what you were saying is effectively the school can't do, the school programs have the ice time effectively
slotted from 3:00 to 6:00, which is normal because they have their practices right after school.
Randy Mueller: Right.
Councilman Senn: And then you're saying from 6:00 to 10:00, which is the prime time outside of the
school programs effectively, you have slotted effectively for your program.
Randy Mueller: For youth hockey. For figure skating club. For community open skate, yes. During the
week. As well as on weekends so.
Councilman Senn: Right, and then Saturday and Sunday you're saying from 7:00 in the morning or what
was It, 6:00 in the morning.
Randy Mueller: 6:00 in the morning.
Councilman Senn: Until 10:00 at night you also have it slotted for your association and.
Randy Mueller: Figure skating and open ice.
Councilman Senn: And open ice time.
Randy Mueller: Yeah. And then of course you add in high school games, you know which consume ice,
which again we don't have available but roughly speaking, that's how it works. That's how you do the
math to come up with it. You've got 1,200 hours of prime time period.
Councilman Senn: Okay, and that time's already committed effectively to either open or your
association at.
Mayor Mancino: 600, 700 hours.
6
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: Right, and the other 500's open or whatever so like you said there is no available
time for other associations. And if so, they pay a higher rate is what you're basically saying.
Randy Mueller: They're out there talking to New Prague or Le Sueur or as far as they can go to find ice.
They're out there buying ice right now. I mean there are sometimes, you know we have bought ice from
Parade Stadium in downtown Minneapolis for you know 6:00 in the morning practice. I mean we'll get, I
mean you could pick-up some ice like that. You know you buy it wherever you can find it. And that's
difficult on our parents as well as our athletes when you consider you drive to New Prague and you know
it's an hour drive. Then you've got the practice and an hour drive back and that's, I don't know about
you but that's 3-3 Y2 hours of my time as well as kids time away from school and other activities, but
that's the price you pay you know when you're in this type of environment we're in.
Councilman Berquist: I want to try and gain a perspective on the project rather than the operation of the
project. Back when we were toying with the idea of putting it in the Chan Business Park, I'm trying to
remember what we had for a preliminary budget. I'm thinking to myself it was a million and a half to put
the arena up and the fill and all the necessary stuff to make it operable. Am I remember right?
Randy Mueller: Our origmal projection to build a stand alone arena was in the million two to million
five range, yes. Not including obVIously the land or.
Councilman Berquist: Right, the land was there. We talked about that.
Mayor Mancino: Soil corrections.
Councilman Berquist: Well there was some. There was.. .of soil that had to be taken out but we've gone
from let's say a million and a half, for the sake of round numbers. Two and a quarter. From
what.. . saying, we're reducing the chiller with the existing chIller. You don't have any zamboni cost.
You have one zambolll.
Randy Mueller: In that 2.5 includes a new zamboni. This resurfacer room.. .zambonies. The good news
about that is that if one breaks down, we have another one.
Councilman Berquist: All right, that was included in the million five originally so, but the point is,
we've got, we're using the existing chiller which is a sigmficant. Existing dehumidification system.
Maybe some modIfication. But all of a sudden we're up % of a million dollars and the significant part of
the arena that is already in place. I'm having a difficult time understanding that. I know the construction
materials is somewhat different.
Randy Mueller: You know part of maybe what wasn't discussed at a great deal of length when we
talked about the arena in Chanhassen is, you know one thing that we're going to have to do is
aesthetically we're going to need to conform to the Community Center. Structurally, theIr standard. It's
hard to say this but broad brush, it's not apples and oranges. This was a real scaled down building. The
one that we had talked to Chanhassen about. I hate to use the analogy of a pole barn, but I mean it was
not.
Councilman Berquist: Well it was a pole barn. Go ahead.
Mayor Mancino: It would go with an existing Rec Center in another City. It would not be compatible.
Randy Mueller: Yeah. Your Rec Center is beautiful. I mean it was not your Rec Center. It was a lllce
arena. Functional and very adequate. Is it something that we tell the world about, you know look at that
beautiful facility? Probably not. No.
7
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Berquist: What strikes me, honestly. If you look at the site, I mean there is, I don't think
that there is, I mean the back of that and the south side of that is going to be visible from anywhere
whatsoever.
Randy Mueller: Yeah, because it does.
Councilman Senn: You have severe grades that are going down which will mean, I mean that's going to
impact your construction cost too.
Councilman Berquist: But that whole area is...
Councilman Senn: No, not where this is going. Severe drop.
Councilman Berquist: And you're actually working into the grade? Into the drop?
Councilman Senn: No.
Councilman Berquist: It's not flat enough all the way back there?
Randy Mueller: Bringing it up to the level of the current facility so as you come in, it's all on, both
sheets will be on one level and you'll just walk through. They have to actually bring that up and do some
earth work back there.
Councilman BerqUist: But It still, you don't have to build retaining structures.
Randy Mueller: There will be some retaining structures.
Councilman Berquist: And the engineer's estimate is $2.25 million so it remains to be seen when the
bids come in actually how close he is, but assuming that he's close.
Kevm McShane: Actually the original numbers that, as we started this project were at a million eight to
a million nine, and as they got into the finals, it's at 2.2 and they feel pretty confident that they'll be very,
very close to that. This was about the ninth or tenth version of how that could be situated there. And
how it could be figured and there was a lot of input by community groups, both figure skaters, hockey
people and lots of variations were done of this and when the final was done and they rebid it, I know that
the City of Chaska feels confident that these numbers should be pretty solid. I mean there's been a lot of
work on it to this point.
Mark Davey: I'd just like to share one thought that our firm's done six of these, and everyone of them
started out at $1.8 million that they could them for. Not one of them ended up less than $2.3. Whether
it's Hastings or Mahtomedi or Brainerd, they all started out somewhere between $1.6 and $1.8 because of
the anxIOusness to get them built. But when the real costs were broken down, they all ended up over $2
million. Hastings was a good example of doing the same thing that we're suggesting here. They start out
at $1.8. They ended up at $2.3. You can't build an arena anymore.
Councilman Berquist: Were they second arenas? Add-on's?
Mark Davey: Yeah. Second add-on's.
Councilman Berquist: They were.
Mark Davey: And the numbers always come out the same. And it really is working with the architects,
and I don't know how this happens but the architects look at the buildings and say they can do them for
1.8 and when everything's added, it's 2.3.
Mayor Mancino: So the 1.2 and the 1.5 in Chanhassen was not a realistic number really?
8
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mark Davey: Well at the time they might have been realistic numbers by who was looking at them but
I'm just sharing with you in other communitIes, this is the way the numbers always come out.
Randy Mueller: .. .New Prague ice arena.. .if you look at their facility, and that cost in the $1.2 range.
It's a good facility but I mean, not the same standard materials... They did a nice job and they should be
applauded that community for building an arena. But when you start breaking it down, what went into
that facility versus this facility.
CouncIlman Berquist: So if the thing had been built privately, it would have been built on a much more
value engineering taking place as far as materials and that sort of thing. I mean that's fine, let me go on
if you don't mind. Randy, you talked about, we're at the point where perhaps we as a commumty should
be thinking about a third sheet of ice. One of my concerns m this is that if the City of Chanhassen sees
fit to commit $120,000.00 over the course of three years, and in fact the need for ice continues to go up,
the City of Chanhassen should logically probably.. .next hockey arena and I worry about number one,
diluting the process for fund raising down the road. And I wonder about the wisdom of taking that
amount of cash out of resources that we could in fact use as seed money for our own arena. Or the
community's third arena perhaps would be a better way to put it.
Mayor Mancino: The region's.
CouncIlman Berquist: The region's third arena. Can you speak to that at all?
Randy Mueller: Well It'S a good point. You know we are somewhat bound by the school district and
they're obviously a very big player here. I mean, and by the way, they're very desperate for additional
phy-ed space just so everyone knows what they're doing and this is not tied to the referendum by the
way. Hearing today, they're using the new arena as a phy-ed pod to address the lack of phy-ed space, but
anyway. That's a real good point. We have a need today. This is a community project today. We WIll
continue to buy ice outside of this community. It's required because the demand is there. The City of
Chanhassen, If the figures are correct, will be the largest city within this area shortly. I mean the growth
IS here but, and the demand, It will continue to grow. I would suggest strongly again, it should be
focused on how can we meet the needs of today. This is a tactical issue. A tactical need we have but I
would again strongly look at you know where are we going to be in 5 years from now, 10 years from now
because yeah, you'll go through this whole process agam. I mean the way it's going, you'll be asked to
partIcIpate in the future.
Mayor Mancino: In a third sheet. Well we already have been from Minnetonka so it is also right now
currently the Minnetonka Youth Hockey Association would like another sheet of ice, especially if they
can't get any prime tIme on this new one that's coming into the area. So they have already stated that to
us. That they would like another sheet of ice for that hockey association to use.
Randy Mueller: And one comment I want to make about hockey, and I know this, and figure skating, that
just please keep in mind. We're talking a facility that's operational, or the plan, you know 7 months out
of the year versus, you know how often is your soccer fields and your baseball field being used and the
relative cost compared to running, maintaining and supporting this type of program versus what it costs
you to support baseball and soccer, etc. so this facility is intensely used. I mean and a lot of people
benefit from it. But you may want to think about the comparison you know relatively speaking what
you're spending to support those other programs versus supporting this program.
9
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: That's a good point and we do have that information quantified and how many kids
from the Chanhassen area are involved in soccer and how many are involved in baseball and basketball
and we're going to be looking at that and making sure that we're being fair to each athletic association in
our city.
Councilman Senn: Logistically I guess there's one thing I guess I'd really like to understand. You know
you gentlemen are here basically asking us for a contribution. But if we're going to contribute, who do
we have to negotiate and talk with to solidify meeting the needs of our overall community before we
would agree to a contribution or as part of a deal to agree to a contribution? What I've heard you said
earlier was, you know that's separate. How do we put it together?
Randy Mueller: No, it is somewhat separate but I would say that the key people that we need to talk to is
first of all the ice coordinator. His name's Tom Redmond. He also is on our youth hockey association
board and he's the head of Parks and Rec for Chaska. And also I would assume the City Manager, Mr.
Pokorney. By the way, the City of Victoria, when we asked them for their contribution, had some similar
issues and keep in mind they also are a growing community and growing quite fast and ifprojections are
correct, in 10 years they're going to be a pretty big city as well. They had some similar type concerns,
not to the point where you know, they're going to have anywhere near the population of Chanhassen but
how do we make it a little more equitable. How do we make this a little more of a community so that
non-residents ofChaska you know aren't charged extra fees to skate at the community center. And the
community center, the people running that have already gone on record saying because this is a
community wide project, you know we are going to eliminate, at least they have suggested to me anyway
that extra non-resident fee to use this facility. So anyway, where am I going with this? I have found the
City of Chaska since you know I've worked with them, just as I found the City of Chanhassen, in a very
collaborative, collegial state of mind in trying to make this happen. And I don't see any reason why they
would reject any proposal, especially if you're willing to contribute to the fund raising campaign, to look
at all options right now to support all of Chanhassen, including the needs of the Minnetonka youth. But I
clearly suggest again even beyond the second sheet, part of your long range planning, to look at you said
Steve, sheet number 3. I mean you're going to be in the leader's position I mean for that.
Mark Davey: I can answer that question... If you give to this campaign and you then decide to do an
arena 3 or 4 or 5 years from now, how will that affect the corporate community as far as making, turn out
to be a gift giving campaign. The answer to that is the new arena would be a plus to building another one
because if you'll have proved that it will work and the corporate donors like that. To see that one
community has done it. Then another will do it and I think if you look at all fund raising across the State
of Minnesota, whether it's higher education, secondary education, social service agencies, campaigns are
going on all the time and all of them, 90% of them are successful. The Umversity of Minnesota will be
announcing a billion dollar campaign soon. They just got done with a $500 million. They will be
successful. St. Thomas announces a campaign for so much, they're successful. Philanthropy in
Minnesota is phenomenal and if it's a good cause and it makes sense for the community, these
corporations up and down Highway 5 will give. They've committed to this campaign and I think they'd
commit to another campaign.
Roger Knutson: Mayor?
Mayor Mancino: Yes.
Roger Knutson: Structurally the way this would be done, it would not be a gift. It would be an
agreement with the City ofChaska in which you would outline what you're getting. Whether it's no
10
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
discrimination against Chanhassen residents. Whether it's an agreement on rental rates being the same
for Chanhassen and Chaska residents or priority use of the ice sheet between different groups. Whatever
you want, and you can get whatever you can negotiate. What you put into a written, bindmg document.
You can't make gifts.
Councilman Senn: That answers my questions, thank you Roger.
Mark Davey: As I understand it, the school district has said.. .so generous as to make this commitment,
they would, if you're more comfortable making it to the school district, that they could accept that based
on this campaign.
Roger Knutson: From what I understood from you saying that the City of Chaska is going to be the
owner of the property. So you'd want an agreement with the City ofChaska.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Berquist, any more questions?
Councilman BerqUist: Not that we need to talk about here. There's a lot of stuff to talk about later.
Mayor Manclllo: Okay. CounCilman Mason?
Councilman Mason: No questions.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Thank you very much.
Kevlll McShane: Thank you for your time.
Mayor Mancino: Is there anyone else tonight wishing to address the City Council under visitor
presentations or wishing to make a comment on the ice arena proposal? Seeing none, we will go ahead to
public hearings.
PUBLIC HEARING: ASSESSMENT HEARING FOR COUNTY ROAD 17 IMPROVEMENT
PROJECT 93-29.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Darryl Fortier
Warren Rosavik
Representing Frank Beddor
Charles Folch: Thank you Madam Mayor, members ofthe Council. Basically this project, limited
extended from Trunk Highway 5 south to Lyman Boulevard. The primary project elements consisted of
upgrading the two lane rural road section to a four lane urban divided roadway. Storm sewer and
ponding was also an addition. Some sanitary sewer and watermain segments were also placed in the
facility for future service. Trails, street lighting and landscaping were the rest of the remaining primary
elements. The project cost for this project listed in the project engineer's letter dated September Ith,
which you have in your packet, itemizing the primary elements in comparing costs from the feasibility
study to the final engineers estimate and to the final project cost. As you compare the individual primary
project elements, relatively speaking the total construction costs for the final project of $3.45 million is
11
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
roughly some $40,000.00 under the final engineer's estimate which was predicted at the time of just prior
to bidding the project. One item you will note that has increased is the indirect costs between the final
engineer's estimate and the final project cost. Some $300,000.00. Basically this notable increase is
defined, if you review Attachment B in your handout, as the schedule for the individual indirect costs,
and as was discussed previously, a portion ofthis project from basically from Trunk Highway 5 south to
Lake Drive was previously proposed to be improved by the City back in the early 90's. In fact plans
were drawn up and the project then was ready for bidding but then was canceled at the last minute prior
to bidding. What you're seeing there in the 94 column for cost basically and our design engineering, the
bulk ofthat is carried forward costs that we had an expenses for the previous design of the segment from
Trunk Highway 5 down to Lake Drive.
Mayor Mancino: Was that useable? Were those designs useable?
Charles Fo1ch: Not really because what happened is, those designs, when that project was designed, the
north half of CR 17 and the West 78th Street downtown project, that was proposed to be completed before
those improvements so the alignment, the shifting and everything else did match up. Basically this was
to happen before another project and then when the other project, this didn't happen, the other one did so
then you basically have to realign things. Also the storm sewer layouts and things like that ended up
being a little bit different since we're doing a more comprehensive project. So in a sense, the bulk of
those costs, and plans put into that effort weren't fully useable with the redesign of the project. So that's
where you see the bulk of the share of the indirect costs coming from, as compared to the previous
estimate. If you look at that basically taking out those numbers, without the burden of these carry
forward costs, we'd have final project costs very close to what the, what were the final estimates prior to
bidding the project. With regards to the assessments, Attachment A provides you a schedule of the final
assessments that are defined. The only change to the methodology in the assessments for the project is
that the large lot zoned properties on the south end of the job, WhICh are within the Hillside Oaks
AdditIOn, which was previously proposed to be assessed for the trunk improvements. Basically now,
staff would recommend that these assessments basically be not collected at this time and that in the
future when their septic and well systems fail and they connect to the city system, then they'll pay a
hook-up, trunk hook-up charge which wIll basically cover the costs for the utility benefit associated with
this improvement project. Overall the assessments are roughly within 2% of the feasible study. A copy
of the mailing list, of all the property owners involved, and affidavit of mailing and also individual
assessment notices are included in your packets accordingly. With that staff and the project engineer are
here tonight to answer any questions you or the public may have.
Mayor Mancino: Before I open this for a public hearing, any questions from CouncIl members?
Councilman Senn: Yeah, I've got a couple. Charles, if the largest portion of this $300,000.00 increase is
carry forward costs, why didn't we always have those in the estimate if we knew they were there and we
were carrying them forward?
Charles Fo1ch: Actually I did, I did not become aware that they were still hanging out there until we
actually generated or received all of the project cost to date for that funding from the finance department
so I did not realize they were going to be a carry forward cost until approximately a month ago.
Councilman Senn: Okay. When we originally sent out the estimates on the assessments to the people
who live in the area. However, it was based on the lower cost, correct?
Charles Fo1ch: That's correct.
12
CIty CouncIl Meeting - September 22, 1997
CouncIlman Senn: These new assessment notices are now going out with the added $300,000.00 cost.
Charles Folch: A portion ofthat. Basically like I said, all of the assessments basically cost through the
individual properties are only a 2% increase. So a portion, I mean basically when you're looking at, if
you compare a Schedule A, Attachment A to Schedule E, you'll basically see the difference from what
was proposed at the feasibility time compared to, so basically the difference let's say for example the
first one which is Lot 1, Block 1, Park Two Second Addition, you basically have about a $900,000.00
increase from the previous assessment of$154,400.00 to $155,400.00 so about a thousand dollars. So
the direct, the full $300,000.00 isn't necessarily fully assessed in there. We are assessing these
properties 100% of the road cost. Basically a portion of the road cost that has benefitted up adjacent to
the business park.
Councilman Senn: How much precisely of the 39%, or $1,350,000.00 in total direct costs is that carried
forward?
Charles Folch: It's roughly that, if you look at it, it's roughly about $300,000.00. Two hundred and
seventy some thousand dollars there. That's the carry forward. And that amounts to about the difference
that you see between the, In that letter from September 12, 1997. The comparison between the column of
the final engineers estimate to the final project estimate, under indirect costs is approximately a
$300,000.00 dIfference there.
Mayor Mancino: The specific number is $276,508.39?
Charles Folch: That bulk of that, right.
Councilman Senn: Okay. That's it for questions at this time.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. I have none at this time. I'd lIke to open this for a publIc hearing. Anyone
wishing to address the Council on the road improvements, please come forward. State your name and
address please.
Al Rosavik: My name is Al Rasovik. I live at 8800 Powers Boulevard. When this first came out there
was assessed six lots on my property and based on the previous stIpulation I went ahead and did some
engineering work. $35,000.00, and was told that I just need a variance but the fact is, on my property
could be SIX lots or it could drag down that cost there. Now again I don't get cooperation to get this
done, so I kind of find it strange to bring down sewer and the water down there and there's no way to
hook up to it. I have six lots actually and I don't get the cooperation to have this done.
Mayor Mancino: At what point will that, will he be able to hook up?
Charles Folch: It's available now if they want to hook up to it. The stubs have been placed, utility stubs
for the extension that Mr. Rosavik is referring to, they're in place right now. Basically, if! remember
correctly, your subdivision was kind of a joint venture with your neighbor.
Al Rosavik: Yes, but in just a little variance because the whole site, the whole cul-de-sac the City
requires on in conjunction with this will be on my side of the property. Won't affect the neighbor's
property in the second place.
13
CIty Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Kate Aanenson: It's a land use question. It's guided for large lot residential. As you recall in our
comprehensive plan we stated that because they bought into the large lot character, that we would
maintain that unless a majority of the property owners wanted to change the character and wanted to
become urbanized. Instead of one or two people bringing it in and having the other people change the
character. .. This gentleman is ready to go forward and subdivide. Some of the others are not ready to go
forward at this point so that's the way we addressed it.
Mayor Mancino: And Kate, how many property owners are there m that large lot?
Al Rosavik: There's only two. It's just me and my neighbor and my lot is larger than his.
Kate Aanenson: There's Oakside Circle too.
Al Rosavik: Well yeah. Well they won't be affected by what we're talking about right now. It was only
what they're talking about on this assessment here. It's only one. The neighbors can come down.
They're not affected by block or anythmg like that at this point in tIme.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions?
Councilman Senn: I'm just trying to connect through in terms of what we do in an assessment hearing
that's going to impact that one way or the other.
Mayor Mancino: Will it affect it at all? This assessment hearing?
Charles Folch: Ifwe were to assess these large lot subdivisions, you would likely have about seven more
property owners in here tonight saying you're forcing us now to connect to your system. That's what
we'd be doing.
Mayor Mancino: Sure. But.
Councilman Senn: But this gentleman can connect to it if he wants to.
Mayor Mancino: No. Not until a majority of the property owners in the large lot area.
Councilman Senn: Well wait. I want him to answer it.
Charles Folch: It's my understanding that he would need a rezoning, is that correct? Or a vanance to the
zoning in order to plat the property. So it's a matter of going through procedure. Physically the lines are
there. Physically everything's available to connect to it but there's a process and procedure that must be
gone through with the zoning of the property before legally you can connect to it.
Kate Aanenson: The way we looked at it before... both ofthose properties are accessed through Oakside
Circle. The subject property has direct access so if you wanted to consider the rezoning at a future date,
and consider the fact that it may not encumber the rest of the subdivision by letting him go forward at this
time. The problem is in order to make it work, he does need to acquire some additional property and get
some variances.. .came forward. Again, our position that we want an opportunity to have everybody look
at the character of what you were doing with that neighborhood.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So he could certainly come forward and propose this subdivision.
14
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Kate Aanenson: Sure. And come before you and ask for a rezoning... He has that right.
Councilman Senn: Okay.
Al Rosavik: All right, I'll do that then.
Darryl Fortier: Good evening. I'm Darryl Fortier. I'm here to represent the owners of Park Two. There
seems to be some confusion and so they have filed an objection to the assessments. And they would like
to get the confusion straighten away of course and investigate what the previous assessment credits were
and my only question is, and it's not to be answered tonight. Who should they be contacting?
Mayor Mancmo: That's a good question. Charles, should they be contacting you?
Don Ashworth: Todd Gerhardt.
Mayor Mancino: Todd Gerhardt. Our Assistant CIty Manager. 937-2900 Ext. 119.
Darryl Fortier: Thank you.
Mayor Mancino: Yes. That's kind of scary Isn't it. Anyone else wIshing to address the Council on the
assessments. I thought someone would challenge another number, extensIOn that I know. Okay. The
public heanng is closed. Comments from Council members, and actually Charles, what are you askmg us
to do with this tonight?
Charles Folch: Well we're asking for an approval of assessment roll, as indicated. However, I do
believe that there may be, it may be of benefit to table action tonight for two weeks to allow staff to
research the issue with the Carlson and Beddor properties and then come back to you in two weeks with
some answers regarding that matter. Time wise, it should not affect our ability to levy assessments and
certify them down at the County.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. Any other comments from the commissioners?
Councilman Senn: That was going to be mine. That we should table it.
Mayor Mancino: Then let's have a motion to table.
Councilman Senn: I move to table.
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to table the assessment hearing for County
Road 17 Improvement Project 93-29 until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
AWARD OF BIDS: HOLLY LANE WATER QUALITY PROJECTS.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. You received a copy of the bids. Just to bring you up to date on where we
are on this project. Holly Lane was a project that was identified as a water quality project and workmg
15
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
over the last couple of years to try to secure a ponding easement. We were working under the
assumption that we could acquire a maintenance agreement, but the City Attorney advised us that this is a
drainage easement, not just a maintenance...future date and jeopardize the project. What we're
recommending... homeowners in their mind being maybe overburdened. Having the pond on their
property. And it is in Shorewood. It will make the condemnatIOn...a little bit more difficult and also
based on the fact that we're trying to do projects proactively working where we're solving a problem and
not doing. . . project happened. At this point we're requesting that you do reject the bids but stall would
continue to pursue other options related to the pond. We believe there may be other opportunities. There
is a problem there. We do want to solve it. It's a water quality project... We would request that you do
reject the bids. We don't believe... Ifwe can't, then the project will go away...
Mayor Mancmo: Thank you. Any questions for staff? Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: Kate, one thing I'm really disappointed about is that we've gone all the way to the
award of bids phase and spent a great deal of money on the project that we really should have had this
stufflocked up long before we ever spent the money. I hope we can make note of that so it doesn't
happen again. You know beyond that, you know my understanding of when this project went forward,
thIS property owner was, had already offered, had volunteered their property for the ponding. You know,
if this project is to go forward again through a new set of bids, once this is resolved, I think we need to
look at how we recoup some of that cost. And if it's going to go in another place, I think we also need to
maybe look at that issue. I really want to be supportive of the water quality project for Christmas Lake.
It's a pristine lake. I'd love to see it stay that way. I'd be very supportive of that but. ..somehow do
somethmg better here with our procedure so we don't get this far down the road and find out we haven't
got a project.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, well we have a maintenance agreement for this land...
Mayor Mancino: So the property owner understands the difference and?
Kate Aanenson: And they're not comfortable...
Councilman Senn: I'm just curious, have we ever gotten them through a maintenance agreement before?
I mean I haven't heard of that. I mean where did that come from or where did the concept come from?
Roger Knutson: The only thing I can tell you with great assurance is not from me.
Kate Aanenson: It came from Gary Fuchs. That's who we've been working with on the project.
Mayor Mancino: What is a maintenance agreement?
Roger Knutson: In this context, I don't know.
Kate Aanenson: Phil was working with Gary and that's what Gary advised us to do and then after he left
he turned it over. I understand the...in good faith that's what we proposed and that's the way they
negotiated it.
Mayor Mancino: And that's why you went down.
Kate Aanenson: ... point is but.
16
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Roger Knutson: As what was presented to me is he wanted an agreement for an easement for the pipe.
Not for the water. My point was, how can we.
Mayor Mancino: But the water goes through the pipe.
Roger Knutson: How can we, that's fine but what happens when the water gets out of the pipe. It's
going to pond on someone's property. You should have the right to keep it there.
Councilman Senn: I guess one of the points I'm kind of trying to come back to is if these bids are good
bids, I'm not sure we should simply reject the bids tonight but I think we should very clearly state our
positiOn and then either things change to conform to our position or at that point we should maybe then
consider rejecting the bids. I hate to then just reject the bids now. Go back and negotiate and find out it
can be worked out through negotiation and then find out that this was the only way it's going to work.
Or has that been exhausted already?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Extremely.
Councilman Senn: Okay.
Roger Knutson: What I did explain, if you wanted to call the ponding easement a maintenance
agreement and then the text says it's a ponding easement in effect, that's fine. But you know we're not,
that's not.. .
Kate Aanenson: No, we understand Roger's position. We've just got a different opinion of it. I'm not
trying to belabor that point but we were given it different so that's...
Councilman Senn: So our only choice at this point is to basically reject the bids and go back to square
one?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. Because the homeowners don't want to do it, right. And I think that's right.
Mayor Mancino: If they change their mind and then okay. Thank you. There's nothing really, oh.
Councilman Berquist.
Councilman Berqmst: One more question.. . Councilman Senn asked the same question I was going to
ask. How many homeowners, are we dealing with one homeowner as far as... Are there any other
homeowners that are directly affected by this project?
Kate Aanenson: Oh yes.
Mayor Mancino: And could it be put on another property?
Kate Aanenson: A half acre is large... we're looking at is through Powers Boulevard. Two lots
potentially.. .
Councilman Berquist: So when this thing originally came up, as I remember. . .
Councilman Senn: Quite a few. That whole area I thought participated. In fact they...
17
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Kate Aanenson: Well yeah, and it was identified as part of the Christmas Lake, and the whole
association also supported it because of the water quality of the entire lake. Not just the piping also
benefitted but what we're saying too is ifit goes beyond that, then they actually have to...then it would
become an assessable project. We were just trying to.. .so there are some other issues up there as far as
the affected...
Councilman Berquist: What's happening... what potentiaL..
Kate Aanenson: Well ifthere's an easement, then we have a right to go in and clean it out and they felt
like that took away from their.
Councilman BerqUist: A maintenance...
Kate Aanenson: There is a small wetland on the property but obviously...
Mayor Mancino: So we need to take no action on this?
Kate Aanenson: Well I guess what we're saying is, we have... They are not going to accept the
easement. What we're saying at this point, to change the.. .change order. The cost of a change order is
so much more. It's better to... I'd like to table at this time but I think.. .change order.
Councilman Senn: Okay, so you want us basically to reject the bids at this time and that's it period.
Kate Aanenson: And we'll probably.. .but again these projects are trying to be proactive. We're not
condemning people's properties...
Mayor Mancino: Can I have a motion please.
Councilman Berquist: I move to reject the bids and continue to pursue the project.
Mayor Mancino: Second?
Councilman Mason: Second.
Resolution #97-78: Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Mason seconded to reject the bids
for the Holly Lane Water Quality Project and to direct staff to continue to pursue the project. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
APPEAL SIGN PERMIT CONDITIONS OF APPROV AL-P A WS. CLAWS. AND HOOVES~
NANCY LEE AND PATRICK BLOOD.
Kate Aanenson: Thank you. We received a sign package from the applicant on August 25th. At that
time.. . consistent with the sign ordinance which does require brick... They have corne back and to work
with staff. They have corne back with a plan that shows wood on the cover, and there's a copy of that in
your staff report. Staff was uncomfortable approving that because we got the message, the understanding
that you wanted to see brick. So we brought it back to you for your interpretation to see if this was...
What we have done is modify conditions if you did want to approve it as the applicant has shown with
18
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
the wood, or if you wanted to leave it the way it was, the conditions that you approved back on August
25th would stand.
Mayor Mancmo: Thank you. QuestIOns?
Councilman Senn: In what we approved previously though, we approved a variance.
Kate Aanenson: There was a vanance. They came in, they basically were given a smaller sign.
Councilman Senn: Right.
Kate Aanenson: Correct.
Councilman Senn: And as part of that variance, this was a condition.
Kate Aanenson: That is correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay.
Mayor Mancino: So in this sign, in and of itself is a variance.
Councilman Senn: A vanance. I understand that.
Mayor Mancino: Because it IS not allowable.
Councilman Senn: But the pomt I'm trying to make is the condition with which we attach is the
condition of that variance.
Kate Aanenson: You have given them relief from the ordinance already.
Mayor Mancino: Twice. Once to have this. Secondly, the size of the sign.
Councilman Senn: So contrary to the most recent letter we have I think from their attorney, these are not
separate Issues. This is a combined issue and if we are gomg to look at removing this conditIOn, we can
also remove the variance?
Kate Aanenson: That's what I explamed to their attorney. You've already given them relief.
Councilman Senn: Right. I just want to make sure I'm understanding.
Kate Aanenson: I haven't seen that letter.
CounCilman Senn: It's here. Right here Kate. There's copies here. Oh, isn't that it?
Mayor Mancino: We have one from William Griffith, Jr. Kate, one other question before we comment
on it. This is no different than the original one that we saw, not last City Council meeting but the City
Council before last, from what I can tell.
Kate Aanenson: The height isn't the same.
19
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: They put the logo down and that's the difference. But they have not done anything to
the base. Okay.
Kate Aanenson: Except the pole covers are a little bit.
Mayor Mancino: They're a little what?
Mayor Mancino: I think these were wood too, or simulated wood. I don't even know. Is it real wood or
IS it simulated wood?
Kate Aanenson: .., the material that's on there.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. We'll go forward WIth this very quickly. Is the applicant here? Would you like
to come up and address the Council? And you're also requesting that it be again 16 feet tall, instead of
15, correct?
Nancy Lee: Yes. The reason for that was, per my letter, maybe I read you wrong but it did appear that
what you were trying to do was follow the highway district. Because we fit in the highway district,
however we're BF which wasn't specifically listed in that. So what we tried to do, we tried to make
some sense of it was to put ourselves in the Highway District and that's why we put that down that that's
what we would do. We were like in 69 square feet and we dropped it down to 64 square feet. Then you
had listed 15 feet in height and I know that the Highway District is 16 in height so, and that also
addresses the monument sign which is 64 square feet and 8 feet in height. I guess what I'd like to do is
just kind of briefly do this in some kind of an order. We're bringing back this application to you for final
approval with changes that we feel make.. . compliance which is putting the wood covers over the pole
covers to, in terms of the pole covers as... Our main structure component is metal. You asked us not to
use metal. Our second main material is wood, that's why we adjusted this to the wood. This way It will
match the building and I guess that's our, the logo and everything that we're... I'm asking for you to
consider my suggestions.. .that I put in my letter.. . dated September 11 th of '97. And one is the Highway
District standards, which I Just mentioned. ... pole covers on the pylon sign. And then the third one was
to have your staff engineer review our monument sign location with us to approve it's site to the street
and put a street sight triangle regulation on it. And I guess if that's something that doesn't need to be
there, I'd be more than happy to meet with the city engmeer to make sure that we're not sitting on private
ground or anything else like that but I don't want a stipulatIOn on there that's going to make it hard to put
up a sign and really not be necessary to do that. The other thing is, and I don't know if this is important
or not. That 40 foot from the property line keeps coming up and I keep saying it needs to be corrected. It
is not 40 foot from the property line, but it still, if it meets code.
Mayor Mancmo: I'm sorry, repeat that again please Nancy?
Nancy Lee: Staff keeps stating in their paperwork that our sign would be 40 foot from the property line
and 212. It is not going to be 40 foot.
Mayor Mancino: How many feet will it be?
Nancy Lee: I don't know exactly but it is I think closer. Is it 10 feet from the property line or
something? We are approximately I'd say 20-25 feet. Maybe more but that's my best guesstimate and
where I think this originally came in was the sign company has put an X in the retention pond. We
20
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
clarified that the sign will not go in the retention pond, but on the side, and I believe what happened then
was staff measured to scale where the center of the retentIOn pond was and that's the 40 feet. So it's not
the 40 feet but it still would meet code. Like I said, I don't know if that's something I even need to bring
up but I don't want to see a problem.
Mayor Mancino: Sure. At some point down the road. Good idea. Now, isn't the sign going to be north
of the retention pond?
Nancy Lee: South.
Mayor Mancino: South, okay. So it will be on the south side between the road and the retention ponds?
Kate Aanenson: This is the mimmum setback.. .so we just want to make sure it's outsIde the wetland.
There's a delineated wetland too so.
Nancy Lee: Not on that end of the property. It's.
Kate Aanenson: Right, so if you're on that side, so we'd just make sure it would comply with the
setbacks.
Mayor Mancino: Well I think we want you to make sure that it can't be in the wetland either.
Nancy Lee: Oh defimtely, yeah. It wouldn't make sense for me to put one in the wetland...
Councilman Senn: So whIch is right?
Mayor Mancino: So we don't know.
Councilman Senn: You're saying that 40 feet is in error?
Kate Aanenson: Yes. That's what she's saying. All I'm saying is that, it has to be at least 10 feet from
the property line. Is there.. .outside of the highway.. .so we're just saying these setbacks need to be
covered.
Councilman Senn: But the location already approved for is on the other side of the wetland. .. .so
additionally, there's a request here to change the location of the sign?
Mayor ManCInO: No. It's still the same location. It is Just not 40 feet that's in our report. So it hasn't
changed location whatsoever. The 40 feet was never correct to begm with. Correct?
Councilman Berquist: It has to be 10 feet from the property line...
Nancy Lee: We were gOIng to go out and measure today but.
Mayor Mancino: Go ahead, I interrupted you.
Nancy Lee: The other thing Ijust want to touch base on were, she's got 14 conditions, or they've got 14
conditions added on. Number 3 says wall signs shall not be permitted. I guess we discussed this before
21
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
here. I'm just wondering why that option would be taken away from us. It may not be something we'd
utilize but I'd hate to have the option taken away. I don't know...
Mayor Mancino: I thought we made that very clear at the last meeting that one of the things that you
were asking for was taller signs and a bigger sign and therefore that is what we predicated it on. We will
give you the bigger sign, which is not allowable in that district, but not a wall sign because of that.
Nancy Lee: ... Then the other one, I've already addressed. It was number 12. Or no, I haven't addressed
this one. Number 12. Any changes to the signs must be reviewed by staff. Any significant alteration
shall be brought back to the Planning Commission. I don't know if this is considered significant. What
we are really looking for on TH 101 is going to be our logo. I know that the sign. . . says Paws, Claws and
Hooves. What we want is our logo which also says that but has our little logo. It's just that little square
piece on the sign we've got now. I don't want to have to go through this whole process to put my logo up
there. So what, I guess what I'm asking is, is that considered a significant change? To allow us to put
our logo there.
Mayor Mancino: That is something that staff decides and we actually do put this on most of our
conditions on signs, if there are alteratlOns that staff feels is significant, that they will take it back to the
Planning Commission.
Councilman Senn: .. .logo that's within the same Sign area required.. .as long as it's within the existing
sign area.
Mayor Mancino: Have you seen the design?
Kate Aanenson: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. And it's fine? Okay.
Nancy Lee: I already addressed the street sight triangle. Again, like I said, I'd be more than happy to
meet with the traffic engineer to make sure there's no problems. We don't want to... traffic either... And
then the last thing is 14. Again, a reference to the height. There is 212 frontage before our property line
begins so it's not like we're right up on 212. We are back from 212, unless staff is concerned the 40 feet
is too close to the property line but we are back quite a ways. That's why I was trying to make it match
the Highway District standards for monument signs. And I guess the reason we went with Highway
District standards signs is that appears that's what the City was kind of gearing towards, comparing us to
Highway 5 and the other pylon signs in that distnct. Other than that I think, other than the fact that we
are trying to open real, real soon and we had all the paperwork turned in in May and it is now September.
We should be opening any day and we really need a sign up. We're a brand new company and it's really
cruCial for us. We'd like to get approved and get our sign up.
Mayor Mancino: Well you also still have some work to do on the site. The landscaping, etc. that was
supposed to be in.
Nancy Lee: A sign isn't built over night though. It's going to take several weeks. So by the time we're
able to get a sign up, this has been in the paperwork process for quite some time. ... we turned everything
in the end of May. But by the time it's built we're going to be long open and.
Mayor Mancino: Well I think we did make a decision on it by August.
22
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Nancy Lee: Last session. The 22nd.
Mayor Mancino: Two sessions ago. So that's, and you're asking to bring it back to change it.
Nancy Lee: Yeah, because brick was my only option given to me and I know you said if staff could
approve it, you'd be fine with that but staff was more comfortable coming to you. All I'm asking is that,
time is of essence. We felt like we've worked really hard with the City and we've really tried to do
everything the way the City would like but there are limits and...
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. Comments from council members. Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: I don't know, I guess my thoughts are just... I mean my real thoughts are, and I've
expressed them before is we've already given more than enough variances.. .add elements to renegotiate
this, there's a number of things I would renegotiate differently. More favorably and I really couldn't
support providing additional variances at this point.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Mason.
Councilman Mason: Am I assummg in this report that staff is at least comfortable with wood on the
sign? Now I didn't say was overjoyed.
Kate Aanenson: Actually we didn't make any decision. We said the direction of Council was brick. We
felt this deviated substantially from that, and wanted to brIng it back in... we're on the fence on thiS one.
Councilman Mason: Well okay, was the fence wooded or was it? No, you know. I guess I'm going to
go back to a comment that Ladd Conrad made in the Planning Commission about things looking the same
and in relating to something else and that I, well. I think wood on that sign is fine. And I guess I thmk,
I've heard the comment from other Council people before that we need to take, as you know I'm kmd of
the anti-variance kmg around here, whatever. And I think maybe, well nobody's ever accused me but
I've been told that we need to look at these things on an individual basis, or whatever And I think
making that be brIck with the rest of the building not look like that, quite honestly would look worse than
having it be the wood. For the sign. For the covers for the poles.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Berquist.
Councilman BerqUist: Well I actually think, from my perspective, individually illummated letters on the
building would have looked nIce but insofar as that's not your choice and insofar as I can, you will
probably never, ever come back here because you'll be so sick oflooking at us, I don't blame you. And
there comes a time when you acquiesce and put stuff behind you and go on with other things that are
worth while. I agree with what Councilman Mason has said. I don't have any significant problems with
the wood risers. I don't have any big problems with the 16 feet versus the 15 feet. I'm honestly to the
point where I'd like to get, I'd like to quit seeing this every month or so. I am discouraged when I see the
sign drawings submitted in May were not, we didn't act on them until two weeks ago. Although I know
that the sign ordinance, although I know from owning a business that sign ordinances can be very
difficult to interpret. Not only for business owners but also for the sign companies. And I know that the
requirements can get somewhat detailed. I'll support it.
23
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Last and not least... (There was a tape change during Mayor Mancino's
discussion.) .. .and that keeping coming back and asking for changes makes the process longer. So I
don't share in the responsibility of the added length of this process. So again I would not be in favor of
the 16 feet in height. I'd go back to the 15 feet in height. I would be fine with a wood base with some
design alterations done. So a motion please.
Councilman Senn: I guess I'd just like to make one comment, if! could. Wood bases on SIgnS went out
years ago and there's a reason for it. The reason is they rot very quickly being adjacent to exposed to and
part of the ground.
Councilman Berquist: I think that's why there's a foot between the bottom of the pole and the top of the
rIser.
Councilman Senn: You can't tell that one way or the other. So now you're going to have a wrap coming
down the pole and It'S going to end before the bottom of the pole?
Councilman Berquist: Well that's what the drawing looked like to me. I looked at it as their way of
making certain, to assure that the bottom wood didn't rot off. The greens and plantings will certainly
cover that.
Mayor Mancino: So yes, it will eventually rot the bottom of the wood. I mean you're right.
Councilman Berquist: But less rapidly than what he.
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, that's true.
Councilman Mason: I will move approval of sign plan #97-1 with the 15, with Item number 14 to stand.
And with staff and applicant to work out the minor revisions for the base.
Mayor Mancino: That is number l5?
Councilman Mason: That would be number 15.
Mayor Mancino: Is there a second?
Councilman Berquist: Would a wood wrapper be an acceptable compromise?
Councilman Mason: I'm not going to, no. No, I don't want to lock it in.
Kate Aanenson: That's how we got here.
Councilman Senn: Well wood wrapper isn't the base. I mean wood wrapper is the poles. I mean going
back to what she did a couple weeks ago. She asked that the base be put around the sign and that that
base be some kind of block or concrete that would be similar to what's on the building, if! remember
correctly. And that that constitutes a base and that should be incorporated in terms of a pole wrap or
something. Now you've lost the base totally and you're talking about a wood pole wrapper.
Councilman Berquist: That's correct.
24
City CouncIl Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: Yeah. Okay.
Mayor Mancino: So Michael, state your last condition again about a pole wrap? Because I wouldn't
vote for.
Councilman Mason: I'd like to withdraw my motion and make a new one.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Mason: I would like to move approval of sign plan #97-1 with, that's the end of my motion.
With the wood being okay and the pylon sign shall be no more than 15 feet in height as stated in number
14.
CouncIlman Berquist: Second.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve Sign Plan #97-1 as shown
on plans dated July 18,1997, revised September 11, 1997, with the following conditions:
1. Both buildings (commercial kennel and stable) shall share one monument sign. One monument
sign per lot. Monuments signage shall be subject to the monument standards in the sign ordmance.
2. Both buildings (commercial kennel and stable) shall share one pylon sign. One pylon sign per lot.
The sign shall be subject to the dimensions and location proposed by the applicant.
3. Wall SignS shall not be permitted.
4. All signs require a separate permit.
5. The signage will have consistency throughout the development and add an architectural accent to
the building.
6. Consistency in signage shall relate to color, size, materials and heights.
7. No illuminated signs within the development may be viewed from the residential section north or
west of the site.
8. Individual letters may not exceed 2 feet and logos may not exceed 30 inches in height.
9. Only the name and logo of the business occupying the unit will be permitted on the sign.
10. The applicant must obtain a sign permit prior to erecting the signs on site. A detailed sign plan
incorporating the method of lighting, acceptable to staff should be provided prior to requesting a
sign permit.
11. These conditions shall be recorded with Carver County and added as an addendum to the site plan
agreement. Staff will prepare the agreement which must be signed by the applicant.
12. Any changes in the sign band must be reviewed by staff. Any significant alteration shall be
brought back to the Planning Commission.
25
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
13. Street sight triangle regulations shall apply to the monument sign location on the intersection of the
private driveway and TH 101.
14. That the pylon sign shall be no more than 15 feet in height. The signage is 64 square feet and that
the base be redesigned so that the structural supports are not exposed. The coverage should be
architecturally and aesthetically designed to match the building.
Councilman Mason and Councilman Berquist voted in favor. Mayor Mancino and Councilman
Senn voted in opposition. The motion failed with a tie vote of 2 to 2.
Mayor Mancino: So two yea's and two no's. It does not pass. Next item on the agenda.
VILLAGES ON THE PONDS DEVELOPMENT. NORTHEAST CORNER OF HIGHWAY 5
AND GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD. LOTUS REALTY SERVICES:
A. FINAL PLAT/REPLAT OUTLOT C INTO TWO LOTS.
B. SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 14.848 SQ. FT. RETAIL BUILDING.
C. APPROVE ADDENDUM "A" TO DEVELOPMENT CONTRACT/PUD AGREEMENT.
Bob Generous: Thank you Madam Mayor, Council members. This is a three part request tonight. It's
the final plat for approval for Outlot C into two lots, 1 and 2 and Outlot A. . .2nd Addition. A site plan
review for Lot 2, Block 1, Villages on the Pond 2nd for an 18,849 square foot commercIal building. This
parcel is located in the northeast comer of Villages on the Pond. It's on the west side of Great Plains
Boulevard and south of Highway 5. It is the gateway to the Villages project from the northeast. The
design of the building is such to appear to be three separate buildings. It's similar to the old
downtown.. .One building has a vinyl sidmg, the other stucco and the thIrd has the brick siding. Two of
the elevations have sloped roof and the third, the middle one has a cornice flat treatment. The only real
jssue that we had with the design was really an interpretation of the Villages on the Pond desIgn
standards that 70% of the roof area had to be sloped. The Planning Commission felt that the way this
building is being presented, met the intent of that ordmance and so we're recommending approval of the
site plan as shown. Staff is still looking for interpretation. . . Council whether or not. .. It would appear to
be 70%...but it would actually be 6.
Mayor Mancino: Perception and actual.
Bob Generous: Yes. So staff, we believe in your packet you did receive an 8 Y2 x 11 copy of how they
intend to provide the screening at the end of the north side of the parking lot. This landscaping actually
shows up within the Villages on the Pond's landscaping scheme rather than on the individual site plan. It
does provide some views from Highway 5 and we believe it meets the intent of the ordinance and also the
conditions that we have in the staff report. Staff is recommending approval of the site plan for Building
#4. And finally there.. .an amendment on Addendum "A" to the development contract which incorporates
the conditions of Villages on the Pond 2nd AddItion. With that I'd be happy to answer any questions.
Mayor Mancino: So Council members, any questions? Bob, on the overall comprehensive landscaping
plan. How is the, on the south side of this Building #4, how is the parking lot being screened from the
street?
26
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Bob Generous: It is with some boulevard trees on the south end, in the driveway. And then potential,
there's a patio type area up above that retail building.
Mayor Mancmo: Okay. Next to the sidewalk?
Bob Generous: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: I'll ask more to the applicant about that. The 70% roof. I saw where the Planning
Commission said a site plan, each site plan they'll make, they'll decide, correct?
Bob Generous: Yes.
Mayor Mancino: How do you feel with that? How comfortable do you feel with that? Does that mean
you're going to be going into definitions all the time on every site plan that comes up or?
Kate Aanenson: Well the 70% rule, what we're trying to do if continue the flavor of the pitched roof
that we have downtown. ..as we've done buildings based on the massing and size. We spent a lot of time
internally looking at those districts. If you look at lots in this area, right here. Excelsior, Wayzata. A lot
of them do have flat roofs. If you see the newer construction that has come in, there is pitched roofs.
There are parts of the country based on snow load that do have a lot more pitched roofs. I guess what
we'd like to see the pitched roof element. We think that maintains the integrity of what we're trying to
do. But I guess what we felt on, maybe you have to look more at the design of the buildmg itself and we
feel comfortable if they can make some compelling argument, that the 70% doesn't apply, that we're
willmg to look at that. Certainly that's our goal to have pitched... In some circumstances it's going
to... to try to do that. I think they came in wIth a pretty intriguing.. .as you saw in the other office
building when they've got the other, or actually the pitch is such that it's not completely enclosed but it
gIves the perception. I think that's hopefully what...
Mayor Mancino: Okay. You know what would be helpful for me when you present again to the CouncIl,
other projects that we have okayed. Renderings. Color renderings that we have okayed, to have them
here. You know out so we can see because that pulls us into the whole
Kate Aanenson: .. .but we've got that, of all the buildings in town so if you want.
Mayor Mancino: But especially in Villages on the Ponds so as we go from one building to the other, and
if we are gomg to be makmg some, which is fine with me, some.
Kate Aanenson: It's reheffrom the ordinance. We think it maybe...
Mayor Mancino: That makes sense to have the flat here or whatever, okay. Great. Any other questions
at this time? Would the applicant like to approach the City Council?
Verne lIe Clayton: Thank you. As you know I'm Verne lIe Clayton and I'm happy to be here tonight to
talk about another building that we're proud of. However, the Planning Commission decided that they
would take the plat first and then the site plan. Is that what your plan is too?
Mayor Mancino: Yes. That would be fine.
Verne lIe Clayton: I will talk first to that.
27
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: If you've already done that before.
Vernelle Clayton: Yeah. I think I can handle it again. We don't have any objectiOns to any ofthe
conditions except that when we were with the Planning Commission I asked to defer a response to item
number one because we had at that point not had a chance to talk to any of the representatives from St.
Hubert's and I was quite sure that they would feel that it would impact them given that they are in
dialogue and have had meetings with staff and have also brought the issue to the attention of Council
back in December. The fact that there is a great deal of perceived agreement already as to the handling
of Outlot L and it was my feeling that St. Hubert's would feel that if we acquiesced without at least
bringing it to your attention to this request for a condition, that St. Hubert's would feel that we have
somehow or another side stepped that issue for them. AUSMAR itself is not directly involved except as
a facilitator. AUSMAR would not benefit one way or the other. It doesn't make any difference to
AUSMAR ifthere is nothing that can be developed on that land. But it makes a great deal of difference
to St. Hubert's and, that issue. Not so much whether, the fact that we might do something that would
preclude their continuing dialogue is my concern. I talked to Don just before the meeting because I know
that Dave Pokorney was trying to get a hold of him last week and Don was gone. Dave Pokorney who is
the City Administrator for the City ofChaska, as you probably all know, is the one that's been heading
up the Building Committee for St. Hubert's and therefore this issue. He is here tonight. I see that Don is
away at the moment but what I suggested to Don was that I was going to ask that item number one be
deleted tonight as a condition of approval of this plat, given that we will be having several more plats
before the project is completed. And therefore I don't think that you would be, as a Councilor the City,
would be at any disadvantage in waiting for another plat. Now I think if you have questions, you might,
is Don commg back or?
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, I'm assuming he does and you do have, sure. That'd be a good idea.
Kate Aanenson: .. . really we don't want to put it.. . address before we get too far down the road.
Mayor Mancino: But we also have a legal rendering from Roger that we all received from the Minutes of
the conditions from the City Council on the final plat for Villages on the Pond. So we do have that. I
don't now if it's in our packet tonight but I know that I have a letter from our legal counsel on that outlot
and what the City Council requested.
Kate Aanenson: It's not in the packet tonight.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Vernelle Clayton: With the conditions of approval of the overall plat, that all outlots have a
conservation easement. At the time.
Mayor Mancino: No, just this one. If the trail could be moved to the north, then the leftover on this
outlot would be a conservation easement. I mean I'm sorry Vernelle. I don't have the.
Vernelle Clayton: They asked them for others too. Maybe I misspoke. I'm saying all because probably
not the street but.
Kate Aanenson: A drainage easement, not a trail easement.
28
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vernelle Clayton: But Outlot H I think you wanted a conservation easement over too.
Kate Aanenson: I think it's a drainage easement...
Vernelle Clayton: Well in any event, Don is back and Don is the one that's been having dialogue with
Dave and I don't know if you would like to address this issue Don or If you would like to have Dave
Pokorney come and talk with you a little bit. I'm sure he'd be willing to.
Don Ashworth: I guess since Dave is really more familiar with the background and really kind of had
initiated the discussions with me, it'd probably be a little better for him to summarize how we got to
where we got to.
Mayor Mancino: Well also we do have a letter addressed to the City Council from Roger on this
particular conservation easement and we do have a copy of It in my office and you took right from the
Minutes of the condItions of approval for the final plat for Villages on the Pond. So I think that we need
to enter that into evidence too, but I don't think we have that tonight.
Dave Pokorney: Mrs. Mayor.
Mayor Mancino: Would you state your name and address please.
Dave Pokorney: I'm Dave Pokorney. I'm on the Building Committee at St. Hubert's. I'm not the City
Administrator in Chanhassen, or in Chaska. Not tonight at least.
Mayor Mancino: You look like him.
Dave Pokorney: My main missIOn in life is building churches.
Councilman Senn: Can we talk about hockey first?
Dave Pokorney: And notice I was trymg to avoid that one too.
Mayor Mancino: You're a renaissance man.
Dave Pokorney: The church though, we don't disagree that one of the conditIOns IS Outlot, is it L now?
Was going to be, end up being public control. Whether it's a conservation easement or just outright
dedIcation. The issue though, if you go back to when the first plat was being considered and when St.
Hubert's site plan was being considered. I think the sole issue really with that whole project was what
was gomg to happen with the "soccer field". And the church's original plan was to construct a soccer
field on this outlot as kind of a detached facility and your Parks Commission recommended that we not
do that and that we relook at the site plan, which we did. And what we ended up doing was redefining
the grading and moving to create kind of a soccer field on the north side of the trail. In doing that, we
agreed that the 2.2 acres which we, well we paid the same price with or without the 2.2 acres. That we
would, we or the Ward's would donate that to the City. We also agreed, and let me step back. The letter
that I passed out IS the letter that we distributed the night of approval of the final site plan for the church.
And at least we left assuming that that was the agreement. And so the first thing we agreed that is either
St. Hubert's or the Ward's would donate the 2.2 acres, or place a conservation easement on it. That we
would also pay $16,000.00 in park and trails fees as part of the plat, which was paid. And then at the
time that the church came in for a building permit, as long as we continued to build our park on our site,
29
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
we would not be required to pay additional park and playground fees. And then lastly the Ward's would
be granted future parkland credits up to $90,000.00 which would be credited against their future platting
fees. And so that as you have plats like you'd be having tonight, they would not be required to pay
100%, however they'd be given credIts for this outlot. The one change, okay. Then after that meeting
we went back and renegotiated our agreement with the Ward's. We made two changes. One change was
that we agreed to pay any added cost in the public improvements that would result in moving the soccer
field to the north, and there were considerable costs associated with that. And secondly we agreed that
any credits that the AUSMAR or the Ward's would gain from future parkland credits as a result of
dedicating this particular outlot would be credited to the church. So the $90,000.00 would come back as
a reduction in our public improvement costs. So if you take action tonight requiring that to be dedicated,
and then require AUSMAR to pay 100% of the parkland fees, it would be inconsistent with at least what
we felt the agreement was back in December of 1996 and also would result in the church losing
$90,000.00 under our purchase agreement.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Dave Pokorney: And I guess the question we would have IS, if that's not the agreement, then we wonder
what the agreement was back in December of 1996 because, and as you all recall, this was, I think I'm
correct in stating it was the only issue and it actually, we continued the site plan to allow us to go back
and work out this agreement with the staff and with the Ward's WhICh the church did do and then came
back and got the sIte plan approved.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. Any questions for Mr. Pokorney? I thmk we're going to have to look at some
Minutes and research this to some degree. Let's go ahead. Are there any other questions on the
subdivision?
Vernelle Clayton: I don't have any other comments.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Berquist: Do you remember the date of that meeting? This letter was written after that.
Was it not? I think it was.
Councilman Senn: Where's the Minutes?
Dave Pokorney: Well I think this was written, this letter was available to the Council the night of the
final site plan approval.
Councilman Berquist: Was it?
Dave Pokorney: I think. Again, I don't recall the exact dates in '96 but this, what happened was that this
came to the City Council for final site plan approval. It was continued for two weeks to go and work this
out, which is what happened in that, between two different meetings. And the exact dates of those
meetings I don't recall.
Mayor Mancino: Okay.
Councilman Senn: I find it really difficult to even look at this or address this without the Minutes from
the meetings at that time in front of us and everything else.
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City CouncIl Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: I do too.
Councilman Senn: I propose to table this element until next meeting when we can have that.
Mayor Mancino: I agree. Michael.
Councilman Mason: Well yeah. I mean we need to check it out.
Mayor Mancino: So we will go ahead and table this until the next meeting when we can have all the
information before us. The Minutes, etc.
Roger Knutson: Just a question of the applicant. You're not proposing to start construction on anything
shortly are you? They have to get the final plat approval before they can do anything else.
CouncIlman Senn: Well, there's not much you can do about it.
Vernelle Clayton: It probably won't make any difference if you table the whole thing. We were hoping
to do It along wIth Famous Dave's and that WIll be in October. We'll be, hopefully bringing something
back to you in October. What IS the next meeting that you're contemplating for this?
Mayor MancIno: Second Monday in October.
Vernelle Clayton: I think that will be fine. Otherwise I would say you could delete number 1 for the
moment but I think that's fine.
Mayor Mancino: Does that work for you, so that we can have everythIng together. October 13th and we
have time?
Kate Aanenson: You're looking for documentation of this?
Councilman Senn: Yeah. I mean there were very specific discussions at those meetings and I'm
assuming the Minutes will be very detailed and reflect the discussions.
Mayor Mancino: And I thInk it means a lot to the Ward's, the church and the partIes involved so we
want to make sure that we have all the information we can and review the Minutes. So may I have a
motion please.
Councilman Berquist: Move to table.
CouncIlman Senn: Second.
Mayor Mancino: Thank you. All those in favor of tabling the final plat approval for Outlot C Into Lots 1
and 2, Block 1 and Outlot A, Villages on the Pond 2nd Addition. And the site plan. We might as well do.
Vernelle Clayton: You're going to table the site plan too? I wonder if we could.
Mayor Mancino: Do you want to go ahead and proceed?
31
CIty Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vernelle Clayton: I would really like to because it would save Mika a trip from San Diego.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, that's fine. All those signify by saying aye.
Councilman Senn: Whoops, what are we doing?
Mayor Mancino: So what we are doing is tabling the final plat approval for Outlot C into Lots I and 2.
Roger Knutson: A and C I would assume.
Kate Aanenson: You have to table C also.
Councilman Senn: Items A and C, okay.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, thank you. A second?
Councilman Senn: It was seconded.
Mayor Mancino: I want to make sure we all know what it is. A and C.
Councilman Berquist moved, Councilman Senn seconded to table the final plat and replat of
Outlot C for Villages on the Ponds and the Addendum "A" to the Development Contract/PUD
Agreement until the next City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Mancino: Then we will go onto site plan.
Vernelle Clayton: I think I will talk about a couple of things perhaps, and kind of clean up but initially I
just would like to introduce Mika Milo to come forward and talk about the building itself.
Mika Milo: City Council and Mrs. Mayor. It's a pleasure for me to present this design for a building #4
which is our second building that we are proposing in short penod of time for the Villages. One is from
the south end. It was the office building just a few weeks ago and now at this time we are talking on the
north end of the Village, near TH 5 and Great Plains Boulevard would be the retail building. And you
have received the material and you are hopefully. .. I would like just to highlight some points regarding
that building. As I said in my comments that the idea from the very beginning, from the onset was that
we don't want to produce a retail building that is a typical suburban retail building. All the same from
one end to the other end. We decided, even though that building is not directly on the main street, that
we would that our main street starts with that building even though it is... and so we conceptualized that
building more of a main street concept building. Retail building, which is more in the historical main
street. Consists of segmented smaller buildings and so we decided that building to compose additionally
which looks like.. .so that even the materials, the roof and everything is a fairly different and so it does
blend together but still is distinguishable three segments of the building. Three different buildings. It
looks like.. . somebody came and over time developed one piece and then another and the.. .over the time.
So that was the main idea and that was the philosophical approach was the base of that design that
emerged here. And not only the building forms are different in these three segments of the building but
also the materials and colors. As you see on the building mostly facing the north end, which is facing the
freeway. The building is proposed to be in essence a stucco building. The middle portion, and with a
sloped roof. The middle portion, a building to be a flat roof building. Like many here in Midwestern
cities and with brick or a block, I think the decisIon of the Planning Commission and our
32
CIty CouncIl Meeting - September 22, 1997
presentation... will be brick. Brick building in the middle and then on the southern portion we would
have a wood siding that will be covered with a solid stain color. The base of that building on the south
we are proposing to have in the river rock type of stone. This is a stone that is produced
artificially. . . with the iron type of tracings and. . . so that it is very hard to distinguish from the real river
rock. And however it is much lighter and it is, the cost of the application is approximately a
quarter...natural stone if you don't mind I would like to pass that picture around...
Councilman Berquist: Does it have the same durability?
Mika Milo: Same durability. The same, it is a cement product and the colors do not fade. There is a...
Mayor Mancino: And this is also gomg to be on the trash enclosure for the outside? That would make a
great trash enclosure.
Mika Milo: The trash enclosure is already looking like office... building a trash enclosure that looks like
a huge building but that would be maybe too much. But in any case, I was showing the cover on the
slope roofwe are proposing is being standing seam metal. However, I already said that the Planning
CommiSSIOn and I would like to repeat here, I really think that we should go on the southern portion of
that where we have the wood siding, replace that shown standing seam sheet metal roof. Replace it with
the asphalt shakes so that that part of the building becomes even more different than the northern portIOn.
I think It would work rather well with the residential feel of that wood siding that we have on that
bUIlding. So maybe we can have it like that but if you in condition would allow us to include language
that that roof can be replaced with the asphalt shingles.. .help to really break the building into three...
The brick IS being produced, not only the middle building but also the base of that northern buildmg,
which can be either brick or a brick tile. Possibly the tile or brick. As you have noticed, there is a
feature here on the northern face of the building made entirely of that north building.
Mayor Mancino: That faces Highway 5, correct?
Mika Milo: That is facing Highway 5 is the.. . form of a silo Farm architecture which I thmk is very
inspiring and real high quality architecture. And I think that it becomes reminiscent, reminiscence can be
repeated in.. . architecture and should be inspired and we felt, I felt mspired from that. When I proposed
that to happen and this is all glass silo. All glass. It's not really silo... It's all glass...probably some
tmted glass and... building has more considering the tenants that are going to be there, we are thinking to
go a httle more of the residential feel and warm feel. With patios and possibly little terraces so It looks
like there's going to be some kind offood... Vernelle can tell you a little more information about this
prospect. This is probably all that I can say in the first shot about the building elevations design concept.
Are there any questIons? Oh, I forgot to mention the process of their design... we worked closely with
Kate and Bob and we have a number ofsolutions...and then develop that. Thank you Vernelle for
bringing... The building on the north is that dark color brick of the building on the north. This is the
middle building and the southern building... The southern building is either wood siding, have two
different colors. One is lighter wood siding and the darker from the street. The color right now
proposed... And down below in general, what you see is pretty strong colors and the very lightly colors
of the awnings. The reason we are doing that is.
Mayor Mancino: In the awnings? Okay. That's fun.
Mika MIlo: The building colors are rather.. . subdued and more like the background, but the awnings,
instead of doing the bright colors on the building... we decided the buildings keep more of the subdued
33
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
and... The north building we are proposing.. .retailers normally like clear glass, but also they accept
occasionally. . . very nice to have the silo have the light green glass. The stucco will be painted with the
darker.. .and then we would have down below we are proposing the.. .and the middle building would see
the.. .brick with the stucco or.. .The building that is facing the parking is the same way facing the street
so the building is.
Mayor Mancino: Has two fronts?
Mika Milo: Has two fronts. Both the street and the parking and those are matching so that you see...
Mayor Mancino: Will there be awnings on the west, on the east side?
Mika Milo: This is the east side elevation facing the Great Plains Boulevard. Obviously the same
awnmgs that you see here are applied on the other side. Also on the street and they are some different
awnings but they are also placed also. So there is no second phase here or back side or anything on any
of these buildings. All four sides are highly emphasized and these will not be the least expensive
building, I can tell you.
Mayor Mancino: So they're going to cost a lot to rent.
Vernelle Clayton: I just thought while you're standing up... Was this in your packet? The trash
enclosure.
Mayor Mancino: Did it say something about, oh yes. I think it was but it wasn't, there wasn't a color
rendering so we really couldn't tell what it was.
Vernelle Clayton: .. .handing out. One of the reasons I should tell you that I was handing out the trash
enclosure is that there's an issue, there's a question with respect to landscaping relating to the trash
enclosure that will come up when we talk about landscaping. Basically the trash enclosure is a covered.
Mayor Mancino: Where is it on the parking lot?
Vernelle Clayton: It's really hard to remember that the camera is on that.
Mayor Mancmo: Just give us the site location of it. It's right in the middle?
Verne lie Clayton: Right.
Kate Aanenson: She's going to tell you why.
Verne lie Clayton: So far I think everyone agrees that although at first blush having a trash enclosure in
the middle of a parking lot might not seem ideal. Given this site, we couldn't come up with a better idea.
We didn't really want it on Highway 5, so the first thing people would see would be a trash enclosure.
We didn't want it on this side of the building because this is what people would see as they're walking
from... across the boardwalk and coming up here. And there isn't room on the south side of this building
or on that side of the building. We really weren't left with any alternatives. And so I dug out my
pictures from Celebration and said Bob, look. Here's what they do in Celebration and we said well, it's
probably a solution.
34
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: So you're gomg to put, effectively that's the restaurant's dumpster too?
Vernelle Clayton: Yes.
Councilman Senn: So you're going to have a sanitized dumpster in there and grease storage and
everything?
Kate Aanenson: We've got that other places in town where It's not attached to the building. Taco Bell
on West 78th.
Mayor Mancino: And it looks terrible.
Kate Aanenson: This one's got more landscaping. The problem is if you want to maintam the integnty of
the sides of that building with the awnings, you really compromise it. We spent a lot of time working
that out.
Mayor Mancino: I can understand.
Kate Aanenson: ... the building. And same with the other restaurant. What we tried to do here is really
make it, the buildmgs themselves make the statement. By puttmg that appendage on it, it didn't work
with the awnings and everything else with what we're trying to do so I think they've come up with a
pretty good idea. I'll let Vernelle.. .looking at what other communities have done with newer, .. .put a
roof on... best solution.
Councilman Senn: Well it's a little hard to judge without the elevatIOns ofthat restaurant.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah. As far as?
Councilman Senn: I mean when you say this IS the best place to put it, I mean I don't even know what
the south elevation of the restaurant's going to look like. I mean as to whether it would handle an mner
bUilding you know, or effectively a trash enclosure that would be built effectively as part of the building
or whatever.
Kate Aanenson: .. .decided that they would go. ..patio side.
Vernelle Clayton: The patIO side is the north side though.
Councilman Senn: What's on the south side?
Vernelle Clayton: The kitchen. But the problem is, that's also sort of the front door to everyone walking
up from the core of the village.
Kate Aanenson: You'd be walking right past it which again we didn't think that was the best presence.
Mayor Mancino: Vernelle my concern is, and I'm not saying yes or not at this point because I
understand logistically where does it go, but you know Celebration works and anything that Disney does
works well because they're there in 5 minutes and they clean up any weed they find. I mean if you go to
Disneyland, why does everybody go there? Because the aesthetics. The cleanliness. They pay attention
to detail, etc. and that's why you can do things in the Disney operations as far as I'm concerned. There is
35
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
nothing that Isn't just well manicured and well kept. The dumpsters, you know the dumpster sites in
most cities aren't like that so my concern is, you know what's going to happen when a door's left open.
When you know the trash people pick it up and don't quite get all the trash and it's around in the parking
lot. That's, my concern is actually maintenance and how practical that really will be for you.
Vernelle Clayton: I'm not sure though it would be any different if it's here or if it's attached to a
building. I've seen at those buildings in town that have it basically attached. I've seen the same thing
happen.
Kate Aanenson: I guess we struggled with that same issue. I don't think.. . different. Actually Wendy's
is the same situation where it's not attached. Obviously spatially this is further apart but.
Vernelle Clayton: Wendy's the Edina building share.
Kate Aanenson: Sure, and they have their type of, one's got... We struggled with it a lot. I mean you
have to kind of.. . explore some other options. I guess we've looked into that.
Vernelle Clayton: What we'll do so we can get all four of the various types of containers is where you
see a line drawn through there, there won't be one so you can have all four and we'll just have to have
maybe dally pick-ups if we have to but we'll grease, cardboard, recyclables and trash.
Councilman Senn: What's your largest container going to be? A two or a four or what?
Vernelle Clayton: Oh, it would have to be more than a two.
Councilman Senn: More than a four?
Vernelle Clayton: Maybe not. But where's room for, this is two car widths so there would be room.
Councilman Senn: I mean you get any bigger than a four, they can't roll them out so I mean you have to
have a set-up where they can actually drive in and get them.
Vernelle Clayton: Well that's why we'd have two and two.
Mika Milo: There won't be.. .and it rolls out.
Councilman Senn: So they're four's now?
Mika Milo: I would really not be happy with that If that was, I would be really concerned if the trash
enclosure was in the middle of the parking lane, sitting there in the parking, but I think the landscape. . .
make it much more acceptable so I'm willing...
Councilman Senn: Is that as planted or how many years from now? Is that as planted or how many years
from now?
Mika Milo: It doesn't need to be very high. 3-4 feet tall so, I mean 4 or 5 feet of a hedge really more
looking.. .
Councilman Senn: And what are you using? Some kind of a finer arborvitae or what?
36
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vernelle Clayton: We had, in talking with our landscaper, he prefers this scenario with, and I told you I
was gomg to come back to this with a question relating to landscaping. Without the benefit of having
seen this staff suggested that we add a couple trees. In all fairness they hadn't seen this when they made
that recommendation. The Planning Commission discussed it a little. I think Peterson said that he would
prefer to see the hedge. We said we didn't care if you had 2 trees or the hedge but I guess our landscaper
thinks that there would be more, there's a greater likelihood of the hedges growing to the density that
you'd need to screen it without the trees than with them there.
Councilman Senn: Well what I'm trying to get at is what kind of a hedge are you talking about? One
that's going to be there 3 months or 4 months of the year or one that's going to be there 12 months of the
year?
Mayor Mancino: An arborvitae.
Councilman Senn: I mean if you're keeping this whole proposal on landscaping, I mean effectively that's
the kind of detail I guess I would expect to see because if you're talking about formal... it isn't going to
be there.
Vernelle Clayton: I understand. We got a little derailed, our landscape architect got a little bit derailed
on this issue because he saw the condition and then changed his plan to put the two trees m and so we
brought it to the Planmng Commission and say hey. We don't care. We'll do this or we'll do your two
trees, and we're still taking the same position where we're perfectly willing to put an evergreen type
hedge here.
Kate Aanenson: I guess the reason we suggested the trees, from staffs perspective, is it would reduce
the heat there. It also creates kind of a different environment to get away from kind of focusmg on that
site also. In the summer it's gomg to heat up and we thought that would help with that environment.
You can use the combination of, one to screen and one to provide a different climate.
Councilman Senn: You don't have any other overstory trees in the other island areas or anything in the
parking lot?
Kate Aanenson: No we do. .. .it's in our rule, an island require overstory trees so we just wanted to
make that. . .
Mika Milo's statement was not picked up by the tape.
Vernelle Clayton: Well, only if we adjust the parking which we don't want to do. It'd have to be.
Councilman Senn: Well I don't know. I mean if, Vemelle I mean unfortunately hadn't witnessed
situatIOns like this before with that out in the parking lot and I know what it is and I know what it
becomes and it's, it detracts from everything unfortunately ultimately. And I wish you could say you
control It but you don't. I mean your tenants are going to control it.
Vernelle Clayton: No they won't. The Association will control it. The Association that will be
controlling everything up and down main street. I mean they're going to have to, we're not going to be
having a landscaping company out there. We're going to have a gardener out there so, I mean it's not
typical. You want a job?
37
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Kate, could you just look at one other site for a minute and that would be, as I'm
looking at this, right up here on this comer where it says Parking Lot 20. And you put this building on
here so that the back and the side.
Vernelle Clayton: In Parking Lot 20.
Mayor Mancino: Yes, right there. Well no, hold on. Just listen for a minute. Yes. It would be you
know near the wetlands but what you would see from Highway 5 would be this with arborvitae all the
way you know, 5-6 feet tall. So you would see a little bit of roof line. A little bit of vent. Maybe
actually there could be something else on the roof to give it a little detail there. And you could also see it
on the side. You know I don't know if you put it this way, that's what you would see coming east and
the side would be again completely you know arborvitaes here and this is what you'd see, only one place
in the parkmg lot and it would be right up here on the comer.
Kate Aanenson: That was our originaL.. but we discounted that for public... Looking straight from
Highway 5, taking away the restaurant's half... and we wanted to make the building...
Mayor Mancino: Well you still have this view corridor. You have this view corridor. You have this
view corridor. There's one little area here. I mean how big is this trash and how tall is it?
Kate Aanenson: I guess we thought putting it further back into the site... this is between the two. I mean
you're right. It could go there. I guess we thought we'd rather have the nice looking building. .. We had
it on there originally but this is what they came back with too. It could be done landscaped but I guess
we wanted to look at the...
Vernelle Clayton: The problem though...the trash comes out thIS door and that was one of the reasons.
Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry, the traffic's going to what?
Vernelle Clayton: The trash will come out this door...
Mayor Mancino: Excuse me. Our City Manager has a question for us.
Don Ashworth: It's not really a question. I'd like the City Council to thmk about, behind Pauly!Pony!
Przymus we really didn't have an alternative spot so we did exactly the same thing. We put the trash
container thing kind of in that island back there. To the best of my knowledge in all the years that those
two restaurants operated and the three residential pieces, I don't know of any complaint that we ever had
about doors being left open. Trash being out. Quite frankly I don't think anybody even knew the trash
container was there. And it's huge. I mean it's a big roll in and out type. You could drive over there
when it was open. I don't think you ever knew it was there.
Mayor Mancino: Well I'm not going to name the companies where I've seen it open and it is not
pleasing but, around town.
Mika Milo: Probably you.. . maintenance issue. Wherever you put it, if you don't maintain really...
Mayor Mancino: Vernelle, when they take garbage out of the restaurant there, how do they do it? I
mean they have to walk with garbage bags?
38
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vemelle Clayton: Yes. That's what they do.
Mayor Mancino: No I mean, I was just trying to figure out the big deal about going from you know, from
one end of the bUIlding to the other or right in the middle of the parking lot. You're just saying you
wanted their trip to be shorter. I didn't know if there was some other.
Vemelle Clayton: The longer it is, the less likely that the trash is going to get here. It's going to sit out
there in back for a little while if it's real cold some night or raining or whatever, or until the other kid
comes so the first one doesn't have to do it.
Mayor Mancino: I'm still not convinced of that placement. Any other questions for Mika or Vemelle
on the site plan?
CounCilman Mason: What were the comments from the Planmng Commission about the trash enclosure
there?
Vemelle Clayton: I think that initially a couple of them were a little skeptical and they decided that yeah,
I see what you mean sort of thing. There's not a better place. That was kind of the consensus of
everybody.
Councilman Senn: But isn't this going to be a recurrmg problem throughout the development?
Vemelle Clayton: Well, some of them will have basements and will have the trash in the basements.
Mayor Mancmo: Underground parkmg.
Vemelle Clayton: There are two situations that are alike. There's not going to be another situation
where they're along TH 5 for example.
Councilman Senn: No, but you're going to be where your bUIldings have basically fronts and backs to
two streets.
Vemelle Clayton: True, and most of those, we're hoping that most of those will have trash dumpster
areas in the basements. The core area Will have parking lots. Underground parking and we'll devote a
stall or two to the trash.
Mayor Mancino: Yeah, you could elongate the restaurant and you know put trash inside.
CounCilman Senn: Well I mean that's the typical solutIon I'm used to seeing is you build it into the
buildmg.
Vemelle Clayton: I don't think we have any like that here in Chanhassen.
Councilman Senn: Well I know we don't but we don't have anything like Villages on the Ponds in
Chanhassen. I mean you're creating a new concept with fronts all over the place and facing everything.
Maybe we ought to be looking at incorporating the trash mto the buildings.
39
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vemelle Clayton: I misspoke. We do have one, and the people have asked that they take it out. Have it
outside. Ridgeview has it in the office building and now Ridgeview Medical needs the space so they've
asked that they convert it to useable space. But that's not the most attractive situation either because then
you have a building that all of a sudden has this, these two doors that have to open up.
Kate Aanenson: Yeah, this building's a three sided building where you really have a presence view.
Three sides...
Councilman Senn: Which building now, the big one or the little one?
Kate Aanenson: The big one. The restaurant obviously. . .
Vemelle Clayton: Yeah, putting this in this building would not solve the problem here and here we
really don't have a place where he could drive a truck right up to the building. Yeah, the silo. You could
just fill it up.
Councilman Mason: I think we're spendmg a lot of time on trash enclosures, and I guess my feeling
about that is, staff seems to think it's the best place for it. The architect and the developers think it's the
best place for it, and the Planning Commission thought it was the best place for it so I'm okay with where
it is.
Mayor Mancino: Any other comments or questions?
Vemelle Clayton: We haven't talked about landscaping specifically. If you have any questions about
that, we'll be happy to answer it.
Mayor Mancino: Do you want to go over that with us and kind of overall. On the wetlands and then on
the outSide of the trash. Make it look like something other than a trash thing, and put a little.. . smell very
well.
Kate Aanenson: Like a little gazebo?
Mayor Mancino: Not a gazebo but just a little fetes and feeding area. So if you get a bad woof.
Vemelle Clayton: You want an eating around...
Kate Aanenson: No, by the wetlands.
Mayor Mancino: Just being funny.
Vemelle Clayton: The landscaping plans.. .the trees are placed here in accordance with the.. .and we
have over here, which is a question that is.. .these are the same trees as were.. .and the overall
landscaping plan for a project which was... This happens to be that comer. Trying to compare exactly, it
was a little bit different than the plans that we approved for the overall project because we changed the
parking lot.. . show anything here because it's on the overall plan. Now we've shown some.
Mayor Mancino: Conceptually Vemelle, are we going to, one of the things that we had talked about
overall in the comprehensive landscaping plan was making sure that from Highway 5, etc. that we made a
hedge wall around the parking. And that would kind of define areas also.
40
City CouncIl Meeting - September 22, 1997
Vernelle Clayton: I've been thinking about.. .I'm not sure that I was relating it to Highway 5.
Specifically I think the language says that parking lots shall be shielded by hedges as much as possible.
This really... Highway 5 too much because... which we did discuss specifically at the other corner and...
Mayor Mancino: Okay. So it should be somewhat, okay. And what about internally in here? Are there
going to be hedges around internally that kind of segregate the parking area?
Vernelle Clayton: We haven't got much parking over here so we don't have anything in-between here.
Mamly because, to answer your question is no, we don't have any hedges right in here. We're hoping to
keep an eye on the hedge situation and have more where it's more, where it can be used. We can't create
a blind corner here on this one. It just isn't.. .on both sides ofthe trash enclosure, we don't have any type
of... So again this whole landscapmg is all done...
Mayor Mancino: Any questions from council members? Any other, anything else you'd like to show us?
Vernelle Clayton: No. If something comes up that I don't have... what you ask me. I might have
forgotten something...
Mayor Mancmo: When do you expect to be building the retail buildmg?
Verne lie Clayton: Ben Merriman has been sitting here watching this and he's in charge of all of the
leases. We're basically in, we'll know tomorrow about one fairly large user. And if that's a go, then
we'll speed up the process on some of the smaller ones and I would think in oh, 30 to 60 days we'd be
done with that, which is about the same amount of time that we'll need to complete the financing. We're
hoping to complete this as one package, both Famous Dave's and this and so if we get them approved in
say October, that would be like a 60 day time frame for that process and under construction hopefully yet
this year.
Mayor Mancino: Comments from commissioners. Councilman Berquist.
Councilman Berquist: Well I'm just struck, I'm always amazed at how the mundane necessities oflife
have a tendency to.
Mayor Mancino: Take all of our time.
Councilman Berquist: Create all of the problems. I don't really have any real big questions. This
bUilding was set up for maXimum, we're.. . the building architecturally so that it would have 12 tenants
possibly. Likely to be that. Unlikely to be that many but. And the 70% appearing roofline. If! were to
project that out so that it had a roof pitch similar to Market Square or to a Market Square II. Edina
Realty?
Mayor Mancino: The Medical Arts building.
Councilman Berquist: The Edina Realty building. That sucker would be about a third again as high as it
is now, yes? Is that about right? And I, in my opinion that would be too high. From a builders point of
view, I understand absolutely why having the flat roof area is essentially to the operation. The overall
operation of the building from a tenant's perspective.. .Flat roofs work much better. And they might be
cost effective... tenant down the road and what not. I like it. I'm wondering as we move further down
41
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
main street, are we kind of seeing the concept emerging in your mind and at what point are we going to
begin to individualize the retail with the tendency.. .the resIdential above. And that's certainly not a
question that needs answering from you during this evening but a question that I've thought about.
Vernelle Clayton: Do you want an answer or should I sit down?
Councilman Berquist: Have you got an answer? Great.
Verne lIe Clayton: We were meeting with KKE and another architect on the, who specializes. KKE is
sort of the specialist in retail layout and so forth. We've just had two meetings with them, including this
afternoon. That's because we need their input to attract some national, key national tenants that we
really want who have expressed an interest so it will be a few months before you see a plan but.
Councilman Berquist: They're the recognized national, experts on.
Vernelle Clayton: Retail design plans and then we have another architect that is an expert on residential
apartments so they're collaborating.
Councilman Berquist: Really.
Verne lIe Clayton: He still will be responsible for writing the overview to see that they get it nght.
Councilman Berquist: Good. But no, I have no overriding concerns. I think it looks like a very nice
project.
Mika Milo: ...from one standpoint, yes you are right. We are trying with these buildings to separate the
apartments for the main street. That's what we said. We believe that main street... We would like that
the roof forms and forms here give some pretty good idea of what's going to happen on the main street
even though main street has a residential...In terms offorms, roofforms.. .especially about residentIal
but there will be defimtely a need for some both architectural and functionally for some portion of the
roofto be flat roof. ...even on these buildings is that contrast of the flat roofs and the slope roofs. The
whole village was never meant, never. If you look at the initial overall view and concept, there was
always combination of flat roof and slope roof. It really brings to some.. .addition for architecture.
Councilman Berquist: Well in my mind's eye I can add a story there and put in some wmdows for
resIdential and it looks good.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Mason.
Councilman Mason: It's really interesting watching all this take shape. Obviously I think a lot of good
people have put a lot of good time into it. I'm comfortable with the way things are going.
Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn.
Councilman Senn: I guess I share most of the comments made. However mundane it is, I do get a little
concerned about what's the ongoing solution to some of the mundane problems are going to be. I've got
a question for Milo. As an architect, how do you feel about wood sided commercial buildings?
Mika Milo: The siding of the commercial building?
42
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: Yes.
Mika Milo: I feel considering the character of the Village and the main street architecture that we are
trying here to mimic, that I feel good about that. That's why I'm proposing, I think it brings a little bit
more of the warm residential and character if you wish so and wood siding has been already always
traditionally, historically part of the main street architecture. So we would however not have a raw
wood. We would have a stain with a solid stain so it is kllld oflike painted almost. But it permeates
more deep stain so it is more permanent. So I think it's some certain limited applications it's fine. I
don't see the whole main street would be wood. There will be probably also a property for residential
units on the top as we have 2-3 floors of residential. There would be wood siding also.. .as far as when
you come down to the lower floors where the retail is, probably there will be an area below of the
wood... So if it even happens that sometimes it drops down to a retail level or first floor, then it IS a nice
connection between.. .so I think wood siding works fine as an additional reaching more the architectural
look and diversity of architecture in the...
Councilman Senn: Why did you originally design vinyl instead of wood?
MIka Milo: Oh, I'm saying that the wood would be preferably but I'm saying even some vlllyls
nowadays, because of maintenance, they look really almost like wood. I would prefer wood siding. I'm
saying here vlllyl has being an option. Being used so much here for durability purpose and from TH 5
you really don't see what... I would not have hard feeling if that was vinyl siding but I would prefer
definitely wood. And maybe for that limited application here, it's probably more.. .most appropriate
though because of large surfaces. But for that small, little building here, I would say I don't have any
problems wIth saying wood siding.
Councilman Senn: Nothing more.
Mayor Mancino: Okay, I Just have a few comments. I like the wood siding. I think it's natural. It's a
good matenal. I have no problem WIth using a different roofing material on that last one instead of the
sidlllg, the seam sidlllg for the roof. Because I think it will give it a different texture, whIch would be
nice. I have concern, the only concern that I have that I thlllk the Planning Commission raised too, and it
still isn't really quantifiable is that we won't be seeing any rooftop HV AC anywhere from anyplace on
site or on Highway 5. So whether that means we have to look at elevations from different places in the
City, I'd like the staff to do that. Making sure.
Kate Aanenson: The one place I think you can, Grandview possibly. Those homes.
Bob Generous: You have to be up on the hill.
Kate Aanenson: Up on Grandview, those homes up there. Because of the pitch of the proposed roof.
Bob Generous: It's at least 8 feet.. .behind the parapet.
Mayor Mancino: I want to know how much, because the people on Grandview right now you know, their
property now looks directly down on St. Hubert's which you know, their views are up on rooftops,
equipment. So I am concerned about that.
Kate Aanenson: We'll make sure we check on that.
43
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Would you? A display of artwork on the rooftop. No, but you know really, seriously,
their views have been very altered and so I'm concerned about, for this. What were some of the other?
Oh! I'm not convinced, and I'm sorry about this but I must say I'm not convinced of putting the trash in
the middle of a parking lot and the smells and everything else when you are going to a restaurant and
when you're going to retail, that you're going to have this smell sitting out right in the middle of parking
lot. I think it should be at an end and kind of off so that's my concern and I think that architecturally it
can be worked in so that it doesn't, it has a look that faces TH 5 or the wetland that is very pleasing to the
eye. Mike has done a wonderful job with all the other buildings. I know that he could make the trash
area look good too. I just think for the general public who comes in to park, and to park near one and to
smell it, it's just not a welcoming thing so that's my point of view. I don't have any other comments. I
think it looks great. I'm excited about it. I like the combination of roof lines and what's working there.
So I think it looks great, and I also like the ideas of the awnings bringing the color and the spirit and
letting the buildings kind of recede. I think that's a wonderful architectural statement and I will very
much look forward to seeing the glass silo. So what is in the glass silo? Are you filling it up with grain?
Vernelle Clayton's answer could not be heard on the tape.
Mayor Mancino: Okay. I would very much say about the trash enclosure and where it goes, depending
upon other City Council members, that it certainly be very specific about using arborvitae or some, not
deciduous or coniferous edge around it to help camouflage the look. Great. I think this is exciting. A
motion.
Councilman Mason: I would move approval of the sIte plan. Site Plan #97-12 for a 14,849 square foot
building on Lot 2,-Block 1, Village on the Pond 2nd Addition, plans prepared by Milo Architecture Group
dated 7/23/97 with conditions as stated in the staff report with condition number 12 bemg that the
landscaping around the trash enclosure be coniferous and it will do the Job it is meant to do upon
planting. Meaning that it's not going to take two years to grow.
Councilman Senn: And be year round in nature.
Councilmen Mason: Yes, thank you. And be year round m nature.
Councilman Berquist: So your motion includes trash enclosure where it is proposed at this time? Right?
Councilman Mason: Sure.
Councilman Berquist: Second.
Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Berquist seconded to approve Site Plan #97-12 for a
14,489 square foot building on Lot 2, Block 1, Villages on the Ponds 2nd Addition, plans prepared
by Milo Architecture Group dated 7/23/97, subject to the following conditions:
1. Increase width of landscape islands. Landscape islands less than 10 feet in width must have
aeration tubing installed with the trees.
2. The developer shall enter into a site plan agreement and provide the necessary security required by
the agreement.
44
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
3. Add an overstory tree and shrubs or hedges at the north end of the parking lot area and have staff
review the landscape plan.
4. Add two trees to parking lot landscaping m landscape islands adjacent to trash enclosure and have
staff review the landscape plan.
5. Add planter boxes to west and south sides of building.
6. Provide a pitched roof element to screen the roof top equipment as shown on the plans dated
September 3, 1997.
7. Provide the City with a detail on the trash enclosure for approval. All accessory structures shall be
deSigned to be compatible with the primary structure.
8. The applicant will need to develop a sediment and erosion control plan m accordance with the
City's Best Management Practice Handbook and the Surface Water Management Plan
requirements for new developments. The building setback line and erosion control fencing shall be
denoted on the final grading and dramage plans prior to issuance of a buildmg permit. The plan
shall be submitted to the City for review and formal approval.
9. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and
disc-mulched or wood fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of each activity in
accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook.
10. The sidewalks and trails on the site shall be constructed in conjunction with the overall site
improvements and prior to issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy unless inclement weather
conditions prohibit.
11. The sanitary sewer and water lines and storm sewer on the site will be privately owned and
maintained by the property owner and not the City. The contractor will be responsible for
obtaining the appropriate sewer, water and plumbing permits from the City's Building Department.
Cross access easements for the utilities and driveways shall be dedicated over the lot.
12. The landscaping around the trash enclosure be coniferous and year round in nature and that the
landscaping be complete upon planting.
Councilman Mason and Councilman Berquist voted in favor. Mayor Mancino and Councilman
Senn voted in opposition. The motion failed with a tied vote of 2 to 2.
Mayor Mancino: So we have two no's and.
Councilman Berquist: I'll amend the motion to say trash enclosure to be, the location of trash enclosure
to be worked out and granted administrative approval and see if they buy that.
Councilman Mason: Well that's okay with me but, I'll go back to what I said before. It seems to me if
Planning Commission is okay with it, and developer is okay with it and staff is okay with it, I'm okay
with it and I dunk, I disagree with the two no votes. Now if this, so yeah.
45
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Berquist: Well I'll move approval predicated on the location of the trash enclosure being
discussed, bandied about and concluded and approved on the administrative level.
Kate Aanenson: How about this. You're going to see Famous Dave's come back. How about between
now and when we come back with Famous Dave's, we just leave that and we'll try to work something
out...
Mayor Mancino: I think that's a good way to do that.
Councilman Berquist: So the motion is to approve the SIte plan with no approval on the trash enclosure
and we'll work the trash enclosure out when Famous Dave's comes back. Have somethmg figured out by
then.
Mayor Mancino: And maybe, you know just show a couple different options. I mean that's all, but show
just a couple different options. What it is and when, I think that's a motion I could second. So it changes
it a little.
Councilman Berquist moved, Mayor Mancino seconded to approve Site Plan #97-12 for a 14,489
square foot building on Lot 2, Block 1, Villages on the Ponds 2nd Addition, plans prepared by Milo
Architecture Group dated 7/23/97, subject to the following conditions:
1. Increase width of landscape islands. Landscape islands less than 10 feet in width must have
aeration tubing installed with the trees.
2. The developer shall enter into a site plan agreement and provide the necessary secunty required by
the agreement.
3. Add an overstory tree and shrubs or hedges at the north end of the parking lot area and have staff
review the landscape plan.
4. Add two trees to parking lot landscaping in landscape islands adjacent to trash enclosure and have
staff review the landscape plan.
5. Add planter boxes to west and south sides of building.
6. Provide a pitched roof element to screen the roof top equipment as shown on the plans dated
September 3, 1997.
7. Provide the City WIth a detail on the trash enclosure for approval with the Famous Dave's site plan
and bring in different location options for City Council to review. All accessory structures shall be
designed to be compatible with the primary structure.
8. The applicant will need to develop a sediment and erosion control plan in accordance with the
City's Best Management Practice Handbook and the Surface Water Management Plan
requirements for new developments. The building setback line and erosion control fencing shall be
denoted on the final grading and drainage plans prior to issuance of a building permit. The plan
shall be submitted to the City for review and formal approval.
46
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
9. All areas disturbed as a result of construction activities shall be immediately restored with seed and
disc-mulched or wood fiber blanket or sod within two weeks of completion of each activity in
accordance with the City's Best Management Practice Handbook.
10. The sidewalks and trails on the site shall be constructed in conjunction with the overall site
improvements and prior to issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy unless inclement weather
conditions prohibit.
11. The sanitary sewer and water lines and storm sewer on the site will be privately owned and
maintained by the property owner and not the City. The contractor will be responsible for
obtaining the appropriate sewer, water and plumbing permits from the City's Building Department.
Cross access easements for the utilities and driveways shall be dedicated over the lot.
12. The landscaping around the trash enclosure be coniferous and year round in nature and that the
landscapmg be complete upon planting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Mancino: And we'll see you again on the Famous trash, we'll see you again on trash. No, but
seriously I just think a couple options would be. And I know you've gone through them so I don't
discount pleas any.
Vernelle Clayton: I don't think we're...
Mayor Mancino: Exactly. Thank you. thank you for your patience.
COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENT A TIONS: UPDATE ON TRIAX CABLEVISION. ASSISTANT
CITY MANAGER.
Don Ashworth: I don't see Todd. ...I passed out earlier this evening a report or letter that she had faxed
over to us earlier in the day. This was based on some information that the City Council had requested
when you had met with Triax representatives from a week ago. And that should be somewhere in front
of you. If you don't find it, let me know and I'll see If! can find another.
Mayor Mancino: No, we're fine thank you. Does everyone have theirs?
Councilman Senn: It was given to us tonight? Is that what you're talking about?
Mayor Mancino: Yes.
Don Ashworth: Very short. Jane, did you wish to say anything more?
Mayor Mancino: Would you like to come in front of the Council please.
Jane Bremmer: Madam Mayor, members of the Council, I'm Jane Bremmer. I'm legal counsel for Triax
Cable. Delighted to be here. Thank you very much. I will keep this short. You've had a long night.
This is part of a series of steps that Triax and the City have collaboratively undertaken to address what
47
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
has been a long summer of construction here in the City of Chanhassen for cable television subscribers.
We think that we are nearing the end of what has been a difficult year we understand for certainly for our
staff and also for our subscribers. And on behalf of the company it was obviously never our intent to
make It anything but a great product available for subscribers. The best laid plans, right. We are, and
have been working with the Mayor, your staff, on a series of steps designed to number one identify the
issues as have been presented by our customers to us. Your constituents to you. Number two. To
provide more information to the City and to it's staff, both in terms of ongoing communications but also
for decision making and in responding to constituents and customers. And number three, putting some
preventative and proactive steps in place, both from a technical construction and maintenance planning
point of view, as well as a communications point of view with the City. So those have been the
objectives I think and there may have been other objectives on some of the other parties but those are
certainly our objectives in working with the city. There have been a couple of meetings. There's been a
lot of hours spent on this by a number of people in this room. City staff. Members of the Council. The
Mayor. And by Triax personnel and together I thmk we have been able to address a lot of the issues.
What is outstanding at this point, and there may be other issues that you wish to discuss tonight, but the
subject of the letter that's in front of you was to respond to some specific information requests which
were posed to us by the council during it's work session last week. And those were, first of all to update
the written report on the outages that Triax has experienced during the month of August. That is
attached as Exhibit A to this document. A couple of the outages are items that were already identified to
the Council. We had a fiber optic laser transmitters that turned out was defective from the manufacturer
we have now determmed. That, for those of you that experienced outages from channels 20 and up, it
was because the optical transmitter was intermittently blocking your picture so that has been replaced.
The manufacturer's warranty has been extended on the new piece of equipment to avoid the problem
with the old and I think that we've certainly resolved that. We had also, this Council had also asked us to
summarize how we intended to handle the issue of subscriber credIts. We've provided some information
to the Council tonight. I can answer questions about that. I would inform the Council and members of
the public that we have been giving credits throughout the summer to people who have experienced
problems so certainly if you've not called us about that of if you'd like to discuss your situation
personally, we'd be happy to take that call and talk that through with you. The third point of information
that the Mayor in particular had asked for was, how we intended to communicate with the City on a
going forward basis. Certainly through the end of the construction season and then for as long, going
forward as the Council would like to see. And we have agreed to provide trouble call reports. When an
indIvidual calls the cable operator, a trouble call report is generated which identifies the type of problem,
when the call came in, what time it came in and when technical services dispatched. When the
technician arrives at the home and hopefully corrects the problem, that time and date and what the
correction was is also entered into the same report. We can generate a report from that trouble call log
that identifies every single truck roll that we make in the City of Chanhassen, as well as many of the
problems that do not require truck rolls. We cannot and do not provide personally identifiable
information, but we can provide aggregate mformation and we can also provide individual information
with the street addresses and names blanked out so subscriber privacy is preserved. Those types of
reports will e coming to Mr. Gerhardt on a weekly basis I think through the end of the construction
season is what was requested, and thereafter as often as you'd like to see those. Weekly, bi-weekly,
monthly. We also generate a great deal of information on subscriber installation and disconnection
which is available to the City. And we felt that we should supplement that with bi-weekly conference
calls which would be helpful, both for us to get information from the City and for you to get information
from us as far as what our plans are. The preventative steps have been put in place, I will just to
highlight very briefly because they've been the subject ofa lot of meetings and correspondence. There's
been an on site construction supervisor assigned to the City ofChanhassen. We are going back through
every inch of plant in the city and doing a system balancing, which is basically it's a full scale walkout of
48
City CouncIl Meeting - September 22, 1997
the cable system. That performs two functions. Number one, it lets us check every piece of electronics
in the system to make sure that it's operating properly. And number two, it allows us to check the cables
in the system to make sure that they haven't been knicked or cut or pulled out or dug up or those sorts of
things, all of which can cause signal quality problems. That project will be concluded on September 30th.
We are also in the process of switching out our long distance vendor, which has been a large part of the
problem with people that have had difficulties getting in to the 800 number. We, like many businesses,
made a switch to a long distance vendor that dId not meet our needs and we're going back to AT&T.
They'll probably be happy to hear that. They know that but now they're hearing it on TV. And right
now that conversion is still scheduled for the second week of October, as we discussed. We've added
customer service representatives. We've added phone lines. A number of steps that I don't think I need
to reiterate at this point in time, but suffice it to say that there's been a great deal of effort by elected
officials, city staff and Triax employees and we hope that it's paying off for our customers so.
Mayor Mancino: Good, thank you Jane. Any questions at this point?
Councilman Senn: Yeah. Jane I think, now I understand you're not the technician but.
Jane Bremmer: Right.
Councilman Senn: I thmk we're getting there, okay. When I got this tonight and looked through it, I was
pleased to see that most the problem areas as far as Mission Hills, Chanhassen HIlls and Lake Susan
HIlls are identIfied that I was aware of through the contacts I had. I don't, in our first meeting I asked
you for a complete set of service call records. You know deleted to whatever point that you limit It
personally. We still have not received that. Okay. We received a highly summarized one of the second
one which was by no means complete because It left out major segments of the city where you'd been
getting quite a number of phone calls as far as problems go, okay. By that list I refer to this short little
list that we were given in the last meeting.
Jane Bremmer: The outage reports.
Councilman Senn: Right, which your own list now shows to be you know very, very abbreviated, okay.
Secondly, and maybe the way we need to get to the problem is, I guess what I'd like to see IS, I'd like to
see a copy of your system grid and I'd like to see how your system's set up and works. You've left out
the entIre east portion of the CIty which you've excused in here through a bad trunk amplifier relating to
one street. In the first place, trunk amplifier does not only serve one street.
Jane Bremmer: Some do.
Councilman Senn: Well I can tell you in this case it doesn't because I don't even get my cable off the
streets you've mentioned, okay. Secondly, the calls and complaints I have are from a much broader area
than that one street. Area. And most ofthose calls, or a majority of those calls relate back to the same
problem that you already talked about as it relates to your optical transmitter because a good number of
those calls were bad cable over channels 22, which has nothing to do with a trunk amplifier and has to do
with what you described as the optical transmitter. Now again, you're not a techmcian so I'm not trying
to get you into the technical part.
Jane Bremmer: No, but those costs were subsequent to the replacement of the optical transmitter.
49
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: These homes have been the same homes affected June, July, and August and into the
first part of September.
Jane Bremmer: You're not seeing them on this list?
Councilman Senn: I'm not seeing any of them. I've seen major segments left out of here on the east side
of the city.
Mayor Mancino: .. . specific streets that you know about?
Councilman Senn: Kurvers Point Road. You've got Willow View Cove. There's Dakota. There's, I
don't know. Just put down the whole Lotus Lake Estates area. Put down the Colonial Grove
neighborhood. Put down Fox Hollow neighborhood. Those are all have been real big problem areas, and
again the same problem bemg related to what you were talking about, this optical transmitter. Being
stations above 22 all the time. The other thing, at least in my mind that we're going to have to spend a
lot more time talkmg about is where you're at on your credits, because the records that I have from each
one of these areas in terms of affected cable, affect far greater percentages of time than what IS here, but
maybe that puts the onus on our back at this point to come back to you with some numbers and maybe
we'll do that but I think before we even get to that, I think we need to get a better understandmg or
definition of your areas and if we can't get that, I'm going to say just kind of outright this way, then I
guess maybe the system grid is a way for us to understand that because I can even, or I mean you know.
We can test the system grid or check a system grid and find out what's furnishing what and follow
problems down the line if it's not a big problem. If that's what it takes to do it, but I assume your people
could probably give you that full list. But also going back to our original meeting, if you'll give us those
records that we ask for and in fact we're entitled to under our contract, I thmk that will describe a lot of
it.
Jane Bremmer: I think the fact that you do not have the service call report is probably my fault. We
interpreted the request as an outage report. It was just a question of semantics, but you were looking for
the complete service call report and I'll be happy to provide that so I misunderstood your request.
Councilman Senn: Customer complaint reports is what we're looking for. .. . more specific. What did
you have calls from and for what purpose.
Jane Bremmer: Right. And that's the report that we were talking about providing going forward. I'm
sorry, I didn't understand you wanted it going back so we can certainly do that. And the system as built
maps are available. I think there may even be a set on file with the city, although it would only cover the
original plan and then major additions going forward so it wouldn't answer your questions specifically
but that's easy to do. I think the.
Councilman Senn: I mean just so you know from a timing standpoint. When the complaints came in, the
complaint came in across all these areas on the same day. Had nothing to do with this part of the city
versus that part of the city and the problems were the same. When Lake Susan Hills called and said they
were having problems over channel 22, it was the same time that Lotus Lake Estates would call and said
they were having problems over 22. Okay. So what I'm seeing here is not following that up, or at least
defining that very well.
Jane Bremmer: Okay. That's a fair critique. I mean we will, this is a first pass so I appreciate your
comments.
50
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Mayor Mancino: Okay, great. My only comment is that I've gotten a couple calls still people cannot get
through. The lines have been busy and that was just last Friday. And this was Mission Hills area. One
that you've pinpointed in your report. That they're still gettmg cloudy pictures and they could not get
through because it was busy.
Jane Bremmer: And this was just this last Friday?
Mayor Mancino: Just this last Friday. And the particular resident dId say that she was given a credIt for
all of September because of all the problems that she's had this summer.
Jane Bremmer: The individual that contacted you, did she schedule a technical call to look at her picture
quality? I mean has that been resolved or is that something that?
Mayor Mancino: I don't know. When I talked to her on Fnday she was so frustrated because she stIll
couldn't get through. And she also made the remark that I just think that you might want to pass along
that she's called throughout the summer and she said at first the service representative that she talked to
was very cordial. Helping her out. Here's what we'll do, etc. and she said lately when I've called the
service representative isjust saying, you know it's because of the constructIOn crews and they're cutting
the lines and she Said they've taken a little different tact now in the way they speak to their customers.
And she, I think was somewhat concerned about that. Blaming it on something else other than Tnax.
Jane Bremmer: That is certainly not something that has been directed by the company. We also, as you
know Mayor, have recently implemented software where we can monitor and record and we announce
this now when people call that the conversation may be recorded for training purposes for our customer
service representatIves because we want to make sure that if we do have people that have been
improperly trained or perhaps maybe should think about a different line of work, that we can Identify
those people quickly.
Mayor Mancino: I understand that. Good. Any other questions? Thank you very much for the report.
Jane, when do you think you could get back to us with the service, the customer complaint report.
Jane Bremmer: Ifnot tomorrow, probably the next day. The only reason it would take, it's a computer
generated report but we have to go through and whIte out the names and addresses. We leave the street
on, Council member Senn so you know what you'll be getting and I'll attach trouble code and fix codes
so you can read the report but we, we're obligated as a matter of federal law to remove anythmg that's
personally identifiable so. It's just that manual process that will take a little bit of time but.
Mayor Mancino: Well thank you for your continued work on this. We appreciate it.
Jane Bremmer: Thank you Mayor for your continued cooperation.
ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION DISCUSSION:
Mayor Mancino: Questions on the Admin Section. Or comments.
Councilman Berquist: I wanted to ask you about that letter from that gentleman that was experiencmg
financial difficulty and unable to pay his water and sewer bill. I know he's.. .very matter of fact. Is there
nothmg that can be...
51
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Don Ashworth: I don't remember. I think he's somewhere between $600.00 and $800.00.
Councilman Berquist: Yeah, you did say that. . .long time and only now was it.
Don Ashworth: Right, and there really wasn't any initial contacts. I mean you know...called and say can
we start working.
Councilman Senn: Oh, it built up to that level before you even heard from him?
Don Ashworth: Right.
Councilman Berquist: And while that's not a, while that's inexcusable, that is humanly understandable.
Don Ashworth: If he for some reason does go into a bankruptcy position, any of that, if It is certified to
the County, we stand in line to Insure that we... Council if you'd like me to take and say $100.00 a
month and try to get this thing current.
CouncIlman Senn: Well I had that one too. I thought we had a procedure set up where they could appeal
that or ask the Council for special consideration. We've had other people come in and ask us for that on
those delinquent bills.
Don Ashworth: I made the assumption that I would re-include his letter when we actually ask for
certification and we do have one additional letter that WIll go in there. They have had an extreme amount
of brown water. They'd like to see some reduction in their bill because of the inconvenience that they've
had to go through. More than inconvenience. They've lost a hot water heater. Stained clothes. So
you'11 see that. But if on this first one is you'd like me to get a hold of him and see if he would be
amenable, you know whatever amount. Realize that ifhe does decide to do the bankruptcy.
Councilman Senn: But if we agreed to some sort of a payment plan WIth him, okay. And first of all I
think you need to check it out and find out if there's just cause to do it and then, I mean I don't blame the
guy for not wanting to come in and talk about it in a public forum. We ought to have a better way to do it
than that but I mean, can't we actually come up with some type of an agreement Roger that would
effectively protect us from that situation. Whereas if we do an agreement on a payment plan, that we can
protect ourselves from being put in that position?
Roger Knutson: The only way we can protect ourselves from bankruptcy is having them certified to
taxes. If it's Just an agreement.
Councilman Senn: Well then bingo. I mean can we set up a payment plan and certify the taxes? X
amount paid with each tax bill or something.
Roger Knutson: It is. Half on May 15th and half on October 15th.
Councilman Senn: Well I'm saying other than that. Okay, other than half and half.
Roger Knutson: Not with taxes.
52
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Councilman Senn: I mean so you're limited to the year and that's it? I mean we couldn't say go ahead
and pay It off over 2 years, 4 payments? You know with your taxes.
Roger Knutson: WE could but then we wouldn't be certifYing. It isn't like a special assessment. It's
either certified to taxes, if you certify the taxes, it's payable the next year. If you certIfy half of it and
hold the second half for the next, for the following year, then it hasn't been certified and he can bankrupt
out of It.
Don Ashworth: Well here's another alternative and that IS, when the thing comes back up here to see
some form of reduction, either in the certification fee or penalties and interest that have been built up. In
effect you're making it a little easier for them in fact to next year make the payment.. .some sympathy
along the way.
Councilman Berquist: Is certification coming soon? Second week in October?
Don Ashworth: October or November. I think the notices have already been sent out to the mdividuals
Councilman Senn: Well prior to it commg, can you guys kind of check out his situation and see if It
warrants that? Or at least make a recommendation as to whether it warrants that.
Don Ashworth: Where we've done this before is where people have had a huge water bill. You know
they were gone and the softener went off or. ..and then we've agreed just to let that individual pay
without penalties or interest, $50.00 or $100.00 a quarter until they got the $700.00 bill paid off.
Mayor Mancino: I'd like to see a payment plan.
CouncIlman Senn: Let's see, another item. Charles isn't still here but maybe you've already talked to
hIm about it or asked him. You know our sump pump program, all that sort of thing. You know kind of
really expected our flows to be going down and we have skyrocketed. I mean I assume there's an
explanation for it or?
Don Ashworth: Well first of all realize that there stIll, like I can't remember, Charles told me this
morn mg.
Todd Gerhardt: 500.
Don Ashworth: 500 that have not let us in their house yet.
Councilman Senn: That many?
Don Ashworth: And it appears as though, like I got one letter here today and the guy confessed that his
is going off all the time but he doesn't want to take and put it out in the back yard. You'll see a copy of
that letter in the next Admin Section.
Todd Gerhardt: He also believes that people have hooked them back up now.
Don Ashworth: Yeah, that's another thing we're fearful of. But we did document.
Councilman Senn: I mean this wild. I mean this is higher than ever in terms of. . .
53
City Council Meeting - September 22, 1997
Don Ashworth: Well it has been awfully wet too.
Councilman Senn: Wow! I was kind of taken aback so to speak. In the, let's see, there's a second item.
Letter to Andrew Spevacek I think it is. We've had two or three conversations on this now and this letter
still says, which was just written here this past week. Today plans are being made to construct such a
facility in City Center Park regarding the skating park. I really don't, I thought we agreed that we were
going to put the brakes on that whole discussion on it and we were going to kind of get back to look at
it.. .these types of facilities. Yet here we are still sending letters out to our residents kind of telling them
it's already coming. I don't know. I'm getting disappointed on this one especially since I've brought it
up four times now and it's still happening every week. And the other one I have we already talked about
so that was it.
Mayor Mancino: Any other diSCUSSIOn items? I think that's it for tonight.
Mayor Mancino adjourned the meeting at 9:55 p.m.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
54
.in.
Chanhassen City Council Minutes
September 29,1997
A special meeting of the Chanhassen City Council convened. at 8:00 p.m. on Monday, September
29, 1997 by Mayor Mancino. The following members were present: Mayor Mancino, Council
members Engel, Berquist, Mason and Senu. Kate Aaneuson,Planning Director was also present.
Holly Lane Water Quality project: A motion was made by Mayor Mancino and seconded by
Councilman Senu to reconsider awarding the bid for the Holly Lane Water Quality Project. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
Because of the time and effort alre~dy spent on this projectartd its direct benefit to the water
quality of Christmas Lake. staff requested that the City Council reconsider ordering the project
and awarding the bid.
Resolution No. 97..79: A motion was made by Mayor Mancino and seconded by Councilman
Senu to authorize the Holly Lane Water Quality Project and award the bid to Dave Perkins
Contracting, the low bidder, in the amount of $ 134,970. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
A motion was made by Councilman Mason and seconded by CouncilmtUl Berquist to adjourn the
special meeting at 8:10 p.m.
Don Ashworth
City Manager
-,
CBANHASSEN (:lTY COtJNClLMlNuTEs
SEP1'EMBEa 15,~m "
A special meeting of~e ~City CQUnqftWaa,~ to().'by'M_~ MancinO'
on Monday,~betlS~,l9.9t ~ $l00p~~; ~,;t~.~~e'Ptes~ Mayor
Mancino, Council metnberS~Enge1,Muon~~ ~~"', " , '
EMERGENCY WAnaltlPADtS,,~ RII:.J\t'''J\ua'~\1EMENT
PR03CT.
Water prt"SS1.lfe testing inthe~tJy ~leted :~e.tWey 'Utility ,Sjndce' Afeabas revealed
workingpre~ atotslishtlytlbtWelheA~W.W,J\. '~;'SCaJff$~that 8$
existing propertyOWIferUlOntleCtto ~ City's WtUe! 8fStc:'tn;thit~;~ldoccur lo:the
private plumbing systents;' ' '
A motion wasinade by~lman~and~by C_i"'~ to formally
declare thisanem~Y situa~n,.d'~ thel()\\i~,~fdntlW~ '
CenstruCttOlt C~ytnc~ <<t:msteltthe preS$n1eI'4duei_~v~aild.~f..Pt&j~t 93-32C.
All voted in favor am:hhemotiOif emi~;,,' ,''', -: ,
The meeting w~,adjol.U'1ied. ,
Don Ashworth
City Manager
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CHANHASSEN PLAf'iNING COMMISSION
REGULA. MEETING
SEPTEMBER 17 t 1997
Chairman Peterson called the meeting to order a.t. 7: lOp.m;
MEM)J'ERS fQ~E~I: LuAnn Sidney, CraigPeters9n. Allyson Brooks, and Kevin Joyce
MEMBERS ABSEN'J': Alison Blackowiak and IJa.dd Conrad
STAFF PRESENT: Kate Aanenson, Planning Director; BQb Generous, Senior Planner; and
Dave Hempel, Asst. City Engineer
PVB~IC JlEAWNG:
IttQUES'f'Q~.~..C()J>>~Jl~~~ Y$IPtf~t;;J:Qgr~MJJ,'~JS.,4lJT9S~~,
ESTABLl!~p~,_g:'~~~~I~G..I1~~_1!D1l'IJg~JI~, AJSD
SITE flrlAl'fJl;Vf.I,!.~.~N 4)JT~ SA~;J~lfI..l"tI~9'Q.~.t\C'l~ .
LOCATf,:&SOYm9F ~.,16~1Z12 AIDc~S1;QF~.lOJtt6'~ $OJtrlt\V~T
AUTO Bl\Ol<ERS..Jt\~ES OLSO~.
Bob Generous presented the staff report on this item.
Peterson: Any questions of staff from fellow comntissionets?
Brooks: With regards, can youstate.that one more time? Theapplieattt shall.
Generous: Comply with the conditions in the letter from S~tt Peters to Robert Generous dated
September 8, 1997.
Peterson: Questions of staff anyone? The only thing I'd like to have you do Bob is just kind of
walk us through the landscaping .plan.. . than what'sreaUy in the narrative. I wa.strying to picture
really where, is it just trees that we're talking about?
Generous: There are shrubs tl1at will go along the Highway 169 trontage. " Mote trees are shown
in the right-of..way. They do have to be on the property for them, to be relocated. We will. . .
They are adding... The rest of this is natural vegetation right here. ,.. There is a rock swale in this
location which drains the storm water to the corner and that's one of the conditions of the under
drainage that we talK about in the staff report.
Peterson: Wouldn't it be normal to request something around the building? 01" is that overly
detailed?
Generous: Under new construction you would...
Peterson: Other questions of staff?
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Sidney: Well Bob, lhad asked this before but I guess for the ~fit ofth* bere. 111Q~ediQ
your staff report writtel1 that this ar~ahasa historyofUle_l4umping and wanted to taUG a Uttl~
bit about thedwnp sites. Do you feel that tbi$..~ needs .$ene~l ~lean-up and do ~9U~1\
that that might be a condition that we should..~ . .
Generous:' Well. part of this, the use of the site, (0 use it.. .they wiUnave.toel_..up,thejunk
that's lying on the paved area. Do.wn in the wetlands.that's Qff~te,.ldon't ~OW how We can
really hold this property .0Wfier responsiblerol' that,;
Peterson: Okay. Othetquesuons? Does theapplieantot their dmpee. wisblo ~s~tM
PlanningConu:nission? If so, please come forward.. State your t)ame andadc.ite$s please. .
James Olson: .. Jame~.olson, 9636 WoodridgePriv~,Ed~ ~tairie,.Minnesom.. Mt.G~lvld
handed'mo~JettetfromScpttPet$'$. We!:v'e'~thtJ~y...t've'bee1t4tiwncle4mIJj;;
theptoptrtyup., .lthasbeen)s~ttingforquite'~wiiI~lmdwe~vetakenalot()f4ebri$andl'vt
cleared a l()toffk~oJithere'sweed$qwtehiglt~Cleatf;datot ()f~tout andcl~~YOu,
knowwitb'Round~kUledalot'ofit off. ~'s;I&ea.SJ:l)alt~t ov~thatwe;lt..
painting and cleaning and I think it win dO,it w:ill~a IOt.better'WanWbatitwotdd,.!mveddWn
there, down on the highway. Yeah, I pi$! to do it. We badtaUced about quite a while ago about
treeing and sbrubbing and l~dscapingand dOing'~etltings.~.thetetomake it,bIJ,sicallytbat's
where, you know the reflection.oflllyself$O I w:antedto make it look 'as nice as I could you
know. We were talking about thisqnite a fewrn6D:tl1$ap. f.wasgoitllt~ttYto blacktoP it and
make it one, lookpretty niee but probably getitdo~ bytbis Spring so it will look a.realnice
building. And We don"t have, I don't have any;evetyt1U.njel$e1hatison here we already
discussed witb Mr. Generous earlier, about a m.onthagoSo [don't have any other things to say
about it.
Peterson: Anyquestiops?
Joyce: How many cars do you plan. .. when it'8all..au.d~hOWtnany cars Would ynu .
have?
James Olson: Probably around 30.
Joyce: 30? Andthey'teusedears, right?
James Olson: Yes, yes.
Peterson: lrnentiotte4 cmlierabout the landscapiJJgaroundthecomer. Is thelll. from YOW'
perspeetiveanything you cantio to .soften,obvio~Wsa flighlYVisible bui.lditig. Anything we
can do tosoftentbat look from your perspective?
Janlet Olson: As,faras, I'm sorry.
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Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Peterson: As far as putting any kind of landscaping around the building itself. Something you're
thinking about or could we possibly do it or is it cement all the way around the building.
James Olson: It's like a cement pad. Kind oflike when you walk to the SuperAmerica.
Probably about a 3 foot pad around there and what my wife was going to do, we were going to
get some planters and put flowers. She plants everything under the sun and it grows for her
though. But she's going to be planting, we were going to put some flower boxes and planters up
and around the front of the building also to give it a more of aesthetic look, you know.
Welcoming. Feeling to come in.
Peterson: Any other questions? Thank you.
James Olson: Thank you.
Peterson: This is open for a public hearing. May I have a motion to open to do the same and a
second please.
Sidney moved, Brooks seconded to open the public hearing. The public hearing was
opened.
Peterson: This is a public hearing. Anyone wishing to address the Planning Commission, please
come forward and state your name and address please. Seeing none, may I have a motion and a
second to close the public hearing.
Sidney moved, Joyce seconded to close the public hearing. The public hearing was closed.
Peterson: Commissioners. Kevin, any thoughts?
Joyce: I don't have any problem with it. It's going to improve the site from where it is right now
to something that's constructive, useable. I know we had Paws and Claws, was that across the
street and we had some concerns about, Craig you brought it up about the metal and I don't know
ifit's just, I'm certain we're much busier with other areas of the city as far as what we're going
to plan for down there. You can't, I don't think you can gauge what's going to happen with that
thoroughfare. It's not exactly what I'd want to see down there, let's put it that way but it is a use.
It utilizes what's there right now so I guess I don't have any problems with it.
Peterson: LuAnn.
Sidney: I don't have any problems either. I went down and viewed the site. I think fixing it up
will be a big improvement to what's there now and one thing too, you know we're not getting to
the 2000 Land Use Plan goals of parks and open spaces and residential lots. Large lots. Still I
think what is stated in staff report holds true. That the City must provide a reasonable use of
property based on existing zoning. Certainly this is a use that makes sense for this property.
Peterson: Allyson.
3
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Brooks: I agree with the other commissioners. I'd rather see the property used than an
abandoned SuperAmerica. And I also.. .illegal dumping because there's some... I think it's a
good use.
Peterson: Good, thanks. Well I have no further comments. I agree. Let's get it cleaned up and
get some activity down there. With that may I have a motion and a second please.
Sidney: I'll make the motion. Planning Commission recommends approval of Conditional Use
Permit #97-4 and Site Plan #97-13 for Southwest Auto Brokers at 615 Flying Cloud Drive, plans
prepared by Curiskis Architects, Inc. dated 7/21/97, subject tot he following conditions 1 through
13. Condition 7 has been amended to include the sentence. The applicant shall comply with the
conditions in the letter from Scott Peters to Bob Generous dated September 8, 1997.
Joyce: I'll second that.
Peterson: It's been moved and seconded. Any discussion?
Sidney moved, Joyce seconded that the Planning Commission recommends approval of
Conditional Use Permit #97-4 and Site Plan #97-13 for Southwest Auto Brokers at 615
Flying Cloud Drive, plans prepared by Curiskis Architects, Inc. dated 7/21/97, subject tot
he following conditions:
1. The applicant shall comply with Section 20-291 of the City Code.
2. The applicant shall enter into a site plan agreement with the City and provide the necessary
security as required by the agreement.
3. The applicant shall install site landscaping as shown on Landscape plan prepared by
Curiskis Architects, Inc. dated 8/14/97.
4. Overs tory species from the City's Approved Tree list be used. Shrubs shall also be chosen
from the City's list.
5. Revise site plans as follows: Narrow both driveway accesses onto Trunk Highway 169 to
30 feet wide. Reduce turnaround tabs 5 feet at each end of the parking lot. Add erosion
control silt fence at the southwest and southeast comers of the parking lot approximately 10
feet from each comer.
6. The applicant and/or property owner shall supply the City's Building Official with
maintenance and pumping records of the septic system every two years.
7. The applicant shall be responsible for obtaining and complying with any and all permits
from MnDOT for construction within Trunk Highway 169 right-of-way. The applicant
4
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
shall comply with the conditions in the letter from Scott Peters to Bob Generous dated
September 7, 1997.
8. The applicant shall restore the drainage pattern to previous conditions. This work includes
re-grading and restoring the rock swa1e on the south edge of the property, remove trash
obstructions from comer drainage points and construct rip rap swale from parking lot to
natural ditch.
9. The applicant shall agree to establish a wetland buffer zone along the south property line.
In creating the buffer zone, the applicant will agree to allow natural vegetation to grow,
agree to keep all business, storage and maintenance activities out of the buffer area.
Wetland buffer areas shall be identified in accordance with the City's wetland ordinance.
10. Provide proof of septic tank pumping by a licensed pumper to the City. This must be done
before the building is occupied.
11. Provide ties for the septic tanks, pump tank and distribution box. This must be done before
the building is occupied.
12. Revise the proposed site plan to provide the correct accessible parking. This should be
done before Council approval.
13. A separate sign permit shall be required for all signage to be installed on site.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
COMPREHENSIVE PLAN DISCUSSION-RECREATION.
Aanenson: We're up to the Parks Open Space. Recreation component of the comprehensive
plan. This element is going to have some rewrite but it's mostly... background checks. We want
to update all the parks.. . and again try to project into the future needs of the city. The goals that
were put in place in 1991, we believe for the most part are really pretty accurate and would
recommend to continue in the future. There may be a couple that we might want to look
at.. . capital improvement plan and I think that's policy anyway... so that's something that has not
been done but certainly should be set as a goal. And some of the other goals, just to.. .again back
in 1991... acquisition for the school district and Bluff Creek Elementary, but for the most part
we're recommending the goals realistically should be. ..and remain the same. And unless, as we
go through the process something sticks out, we may add it but otherwise we're going to
recommend that the goals... Since 1991, while the goals address, that we have, open space,
passive and active, up until probably the last few years, most of the park direction has been active
because of having a young community. Most the parks have been trying to address neighborhood
needs for soccer, community play fields and the like and there were 18 existing parks since 1991
with development of subdivisions brought on the Stone Creek Park, the Forest Meadows, the
Roundhouse Park in Minnewashta. And also we did acquire the 50 acre park just south of
5
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Highway 5 and Galpin and TH 41, the O'Shaughnessy piece and the Arboretum Park. That will
be a passive one but we did acquire quite a few. And our parks are all broken down, besides the
neighborhood parks and community parks, including Bluff Creek Recreation programming is
taking place probably more... Lake Ann which kind of serves.. .ballfield program to a bigger
scale. And then also Bandimere which.. .little bit broader neighborhood programming. We also
have some other regional facilities such as the Arboretum, a golf course and then Lake
Minnewashta Regional Park. So our categories of open space and parks are broken down into
neighborhood, community and regional. Also the Park Commission has been asking for. . . trail
connection and that will continue in the future.. .based on the timing of development.. .how do
you make those connections... other improvement projects. With the approval of the referendum
of$4.9 million, there will be some other acquisition improvements to existing parks and the Park
and Recreation Commission and the task force.. .on how that money will be distributed and how
it should be best used. So there will be some changes and we'll try to put those back into the
comprehensive plan so. Again trying to project into the future, we wanted to try to look at what
the needs are. The Park Director is planning a needs assessment.. . for January to try to get at
better handle. We did find out a lot of information as a part of the referendum. A lot of data.
What needs are out there. What people are happy with. Some of the things that we're finding
out, or that they're finding out is that a lot of the programming in the past has been for young
kids. . . there's been some talk now. . . try to do some programming to meet other needs. The trails,
it's a lot of.. . making sure that we're tapping into all those so that will be some of the information
that comes out.. . and again that will be programmed back. Before you see this again we're going
to come back and inventory, put all the complete data in there. Again, I believe the goals are
pretty much staying the same and even the philosophical intent.. .open space is. The difference
between.. .and regional, I think again that stands. I think that stands the test of time and.. .but
we're going to let the Park and Recreation Commission see that and comment on it and bring that
back. So it will be a few months before you see the document. Other than that, if you've got
some concerns, questions of things that you want to make sure that we do look at, that's all I
have.
Peterson: Questions, comments, feedback? All of the above. As I read through it Kate,
reinforcing the fact that what we've got here is sound. Hardly anything so I mean I'd like to be
able to give you more feedback other than to say, it reinforces what we.. . originally.
Aanenson: And with the referendum, how do you acquire property when the price goes up with
development. That's something you.. .the area south where we have the wildlife refuge that
we've always kind of said we want to have open space, and I'm not sure that we can solve that
but it seems like we're chasing those dollars. . . trying to get the park planning out. .. We know
that there's a couple other neighborhood parks slated but for the most part...
Peterson: When is the referendum money available? When can they start?
Aanenson: It will be bonded for this fall.
Peterson: I assume they're looking now.
6
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Aanenson: Correct.. .And another component, not just for programming work but as they're
looking now at. . . trust for public land. Other groups that are looking at just trying to preserve
open space. That doesn't mean it has to be graded.. . and that's something we'll be looking at
with Bluff Creek. ..
Brooks: ... time table for the trails. . .
Aanenson: Some of those are accomplished through the referendum. That's something that
we're planning on looking at. At how those dollars work out and some of them make sense. . . tie
them in with development. Better stage with road improvements...
Generous: I believe Todd is looking at spending the money in '98-99.
Aanenson: You're talking about for the referendum.
Brooks: I'm just talking about like...
Aanenson: That's longer term. That's why I said...
Generous: Yeah, they'll be tied into, try to tie them in with utility improvements. Putting in with
corridor and roadway improvements.
Aanenson: So that will tie back to our transportation plan. What we're looking for as far as
upgrading... tying into subdivisions, so some of them are internal and some of them are street...
Peterson: Other questions or comments? Okay. Move ahead.
BLUFF CREEK OVERLAY DISTRICT DISCUSSION.
Mark Koegler: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. I want to take a little bit of agenda
time tonight to continue the discussion of the ordinance to regulate lands within the Bluff Creek
watershed corridor. The boundaries of the corridor I think you're aware were established by the
Bluff Creek Natural Resources Management Plan. That's the graphic that's on the display right
now. The areas within the Bluff Creek is the area that's kind in the soft yellow. Then you can
pick out hopefully some other colors here. There's kind of a green which is identified as a
primary corridor area. Kind of a brown pattern, the secondary corridor area. The differential
essentially being between those is the sensitivity that each of those areas have based on natural
resources primarily. The creek itself, tributaries, wetlands, wildlife habitat and so forth and I
think all of you are pretty familiar with that report. The purpose of the ordinance and what I've
given you tonight is just kind of a quick shot. It's not meant to be an all encompassing statement.
We'll actually have it modified when the ordinance draft comes back to you but just to give you
some idea, the intent of the ordinance, the purpose of the ordinance is to protect the environment.
To encourage the development pattern that allows land development and people to come into this
area and co-exist with the natural resource space that's there. And then certainly one of the
7
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
vision aspects that was identified in the plan was to foster the use of the corridor as a recreation
and educational resource, and that has some pretty broad base implications. Everything from
trail connections that meander some 5 miles up through the city of Chanhassen and really
become an integral spine to the trail system overall that you were just talking about, to some
educational tie ins that can work with the schools and some of the other educational institutions
in the area. The ordinance will address a number of issues. One of them certainly is land uses.
And land uses as the ordinance will look at those, again is something that you have seen. It dates
back to what has been put forward thus far as Chanhassen's 2000 Land Use Plan. That land use
plan being one that's been before this body before and is basically part of the comprehensive plan
update process that you're involved in. So the uses that are depicted there are the uses that we
are looking at accommodating within those areas, within the restrictions that are necessary in
order to protect the environment that's there. The ordinance will include environmental
protection measures. If you recall on the plan there were a number of specifics mentioned and
we're factoring those in as they fit. Specifically for example there's a reference in bluff areas or
buffer strips. The plan recommended 50 to 100 feet from the edge of a bluff area in undeveloped
areas. About 30 feet in developed areas. We'll be looking at those kinds of standards and those
will be included within the ordinance draft that will come back to you. There's a number of tools
out there that we've talked about before in a couple of different sessions. Primarily being,
looking at things like conservation easements. Restrictions on impervious cover that we're
looking at now, as well as density transfers, and I want to come back to that in a few minutes and
let that be kind of a focal point of part of the discussion this evening. One of the things that
we're learning too as we get further into this is the ordinance probably is going to have to have
some supporting actions along with it. As you'll see there may be cases where there are
properties that simply the existence of that primary and that secondary corridor take so much of
the land and given ownership patterns and things, that it may preclude development of that
property and we'll have to look at those on a case by case basis but there may be some supporting
actions that are required too in terms of implementation money. Similar to what the City does
with it's storm water management program in terms of acquisition oflands and we'll have more
on that when we come back with it next month. I think maybe to kind of illustrate the impact of
this primary and secondary corridor, let me refer to a quick graphic. What's on the screen now in
front of you is a graphic that shows some of the properties that are, we've labeled basically as
undeveloped but impacted by this and they occur obviously within the Bluff Creek watershed.
They consist of really two categorizations. One is kind of this brown color, which are properties
within it but within it there are the hatched areas that shows up and a darker brown that's actually
part of the primary and the secondary pieces of those parcels as defined by the watershed plan
itself. So those properties, what we've attempted to do there is to pull out or begin to pull out
some of the properties that aren't likely to be impacted or certainly not significantly by a set of
regulations that we'll be putting forward for this area. Specifically that includes things like
obviously existing Park and Recreation open space areas. You had a discussion a few minutes
ago on the referendum and there was a component of the referendum that was for acquisition of
land. Depending upon what properties are ultimately selected and what kind of negotiations take
place, it's estimated there will be about a 40 to 100 additional acres that will come out of that, in
essence and be permanent open space. A lot of that is likely to be within this corridor. You've
probably seen some maps that show some very blanket kinds of things and I think that's all that's
available to this point in time. Wetlands, flood plains, some of the other areas obviously will not
8
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
be developed and are out of there and that's some of the darker, some of the. ..you see in some of
these areas are actually existing wetland complexes are there. There's quite a difference in
properties as we begin to look at these in more detail from essentially north to south. If you look
in the northern reaches you'll find properties that while they're within the overall Bluff Creek
area, they're not necessarily heavily impacted by it, at least from a standpoint of not being
directly in the primary or secondary corridor areas. It's easy enough though just by where the
mapping of the dark areas are, for example south of Lyman, and what's generally I think
probably called the Degler and Fox properties. This is a different world right there. A lot of
things come together. You've got tributaries. You've got the main creek and it really creates a
very large primary and secondary area and we're trying to refine now how an ordinance can work
and really kind of appeal to both of these, and it's an interesting challenge and one that I'm sure
you'll get into as well when we get into this next month. Density transfer is likely to be one of
the significant tools and it's one that you have used before, and I want to spend a few minutes on
that. I'm particularly interested in your observations. There have been a couple of development
proposals that you've reviewed in recent past that due to the fortunes of your staff being able to
work effectively with the developers and let's face it, having a fairly willing developer, you begin
to achieve really quite a bit of the intent of this ordinance without yet having the ordinance in
place. Obviously you can't have that happen every time so the intent of the city is to look at
putting the regulations in place that require that, but what I'd like to do is spend just a couple of
minutes reviewing the townhomes at Creekside and the Walnut Grove subdivisions because they
are good examples of this and if I can stick these on the overhead. The first of the two
subdivisions is the townhomes at Creekside. I think these are good graphic examples of the
concept that's being employed here, and what I guess I'm most interested in getting back in terms
of feedback from the Commission this evening is you went through these projects. You were in
negotiation with the developers you were reviewing the plan. I'm kind of interested from your
perspective how that experience went. Were there process items that you would call to our
attention? Were there outcomes that you would like to talk about that maybe have implications
as to how the ordinance ultimately is set up? Now in this particular case, looking at this first
project, this one is relatively small. It's only about a 7 acre site but it's interesting because about
42% of it falls within what I'd label as corridor land which is that primary and secondary corridor
area again and that's the area that's cross hatched on the map. The lower area, the speckled area
being the primary. The line pattern being the secondary. Within those areas, in the primary
there's about 12% impervious cover in this particular one. In the secondary area, secondary
corridor there's about 14%. That really reflects streets and street and housing units. You can see
quite clearly that the housing units have been essentially pushed off to the northeast, away from
as much as practical the limits of the corridor and obviously effectively has limited the amount of
impervious cover within the zone. If you look quickly at the second of the examples, the Walnut
Grove, this is probably a better comprehensive example simply because of the land size and the
mix of units that we're involved with here. This property is about 50 acres in size. About 19%
of it or just under 10 acres is within the primary and secondary corridor. This one has a net
density of about 5.77 units per acre. But if you look at the amount ofland that's in each
classification, in the primary we're dealing with about 18% impervious cover out of 6 Y2 acres,
being streets and housing. In the secondary we've got 2.9 acres, of which about 25% of that, or
I'm sorry. That represents about 25% of the land area within that category so again you've got
percentage ranges that run from 18 to 25 here. In this particular case there was obviously a lot
9
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
more flexibility with the development pattern. If your intent is, if your ordinance is to
accommodate x number of units per acre and you've got more acres, you can begin to push these
around a little bit. I think that probably happened here. Obviously there's a concentration of the
higher density, kind of to the south. There's a band of homes in the middle that I understand are
going to probably be some kind of bungalow type configuration and then you've got more
traditional single family detached to the extreme north. And I'm sure there was trading of
densities as this thing went through the process. I'm not sure how all of that unfolded. But I
guess I am interested, as I said before, with experiences that you might have taken from these
because these are very good, real world examples of the concept that we're looking at in density
transfer and trying to effectuate this ultimately over some larger land parcels in the future. With
that, I don't have any more presentation comments. As I said, I'm very interested in hearing first
hand experiences that you have or thoughts or concerns that you may have encountered while
these projects were going through their review cycle so we can make sure that we address those
as we begin to put the finishing touches on the ordinance. I'll come back after that and we can
talk for a minute about schedule. The intent is to be back here in essence in a month with a draft
that you'll be reviewing. With that, I would welcome any comments or thoughts you might have.
Joyce: Say Kate, on the Walnut Grove situation. See this is a good idea doing what you're doing
right here. Showing us the actual projects, but we had a different graphic. We didn't have the
primary and secondary and if! remember correctly, weren't they, didn't they give us the buffer?
Aanenson: If you recall in the draft document there was a 300 foot requirement. That really has
no standing on the ordinance. . .
Joyce: I understand that.
Aanenson: So, this goes beyond or it averages the 300.
Joyce: That was it. They averaged 300 feet.
Aanenson: Right. As Mark was saying, because we pushed the density south, I think we may
have been able to keep it out of that secondary corridor but the objective, we had some
competing objective that we were trying to balance.
Joyce: Right, right.
Aanenson: Right. But that was the average was the 300.
Joyce: I guess that's what I'm bringing up is that we did get that average.
Aanenson: Yes.
Joyce: Okay.
10
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Mark Koegler: I should indicate too that these were assembled by taking obviously very large
kind of gross map scales and applying them to site specific scales so take this with a grain of salt
but it's pretty close in terms of at least showing relationships between the parcels. And I think it
was a pretty good graphic example in both cases that the efforts resulted in the units being
pushed out of these sensitive areas.
Joyce: What else did we do with them on that? There was something else that the City gave
them.
Aanenson: The right-of-way.
Joyce: The right-of-way, right.
Aanenson: Yeah. Some of the discussion that Mark and I were having was, obviously the
primary corridor is something that we definitely wanted to try to keep development out of. In
some cases it becomes a finger that may be difficult because it's an anomaly that's hard to work
around. And the secondary corridor, while it's significant from a vegetation and wildlife mode,
we're trying to figure out what exactly the implications are when you have that additional
corridor setback. Will density transfer work? There's going to be some sticky ones, that we've
been discussing. When you've got industrial you don't have as much to say, that's one thing
that... But we wanted to see you know, if we're going to do density transfers, everybody's got to
recognize that we're pushing to get the preservation area...compressing some of these areas...
We tried to go out and look at a couple of different...
Peterson: I think in many ways both of these examples, I don't as I recall, the Bluff Creek
corridor was not the primary driving force behind this moving the setback back and, the flow in
transition from one type of housing to another in many ways so I'm thinking part of it was the
Bluff Creek and part of it was just flow. . . developer.
Aanenson: W ell Walnut Grove, we definitely wanted when you came in to give it a look of open
space and go back to the big woods because that in the corridor plan, that was identified as an
area to go back and have the underpass there. You want to go back with woods in there and have
some sort of a habitat.. . and everybody can enjoy that, which we tried to accomplish.
Joyce: But it fit into the plan though, that was the thing. I mean it, where you would expect it to
be. It wasn't right down the center of the plan where you had to separate everything.
Aanenson: Right, although sometimes developers do like to put them on that side of the road to
maximize the use, which you have on Creekside. You're right...but the Creekside one as you
recall, when this first came into staff, we recommended we wanted the density to go up. We
wanted a different configuration because there was an area that we felt the topography,
topographically it was separated. We thought we could have density, but the developer wanted
this type of more traditional townhomes kind of product and... But I think you're right on this
one Craig. There probably wasn't as much.. .and we did allow the NURP pond to go into the
flood plain.
11
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Peterson: ... Walnut Grove is a PUD.
Aanenson: Yeah, they both were.
Peterson: But with that we have more anonymity but it is critical timing because they're going to
come fast and we need in the specs and...
Joyce: Are there any areas that you see problems.. .on the Bluff Creek where you can see maybe
industrial. You had mentioned industrial. Where?
Aanenson: That was the Degler piece I think Mark...
Joyce: Maybe we can look at that for a second.
Brooks: Is that the piece... by where I live where the Bluff Creek follows the wetlands...
Aanenson: South of Lyman.
Brooks: This would be north.
Generous: Along the west edge.
Brooks: There's a real nice wetland. There's a huge wetland right there.
Aanenson: That's Bluff Creek.
Mark Koegler: The area that we're talking about, if you recall the land use aspect of the Comp
Plan in some cases they're... That area that we're talking about is right here south of Lyman.
We've shown the underlying color as gray and the potential.. . you're correct. That one...
Brooks: There's a section right north of Lyman also is a wetlands. .. . right next to it in front of
that. ..I think when a townhouse developer came in.. .real sensitive area. Beautiful wetland
area...
Mark Koegler: That industrial piece is just guessing, probably 20% within the primary corridor
and 80% within the secondary corridor. It is wholly within it, and that's going to be a very
interesting challenge and I don't have an answer yet tonight as to how we're going to address that
detail. When we've talked about development to date with this, I think we've focused more on
the residential side and yes, we can shift units around but what are we doing when you have an
intensive use like that that is wholly within designated corridors.
Joyce: What will the watershed ordinance, well let's take that piece for example. We put in the
watershed ordinance. Now they come in and they want to put in industrial. What do you do?
12
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Aanenson: One of the things we talked about is the requirement for impervious surface so we're
making them... that's an option too because they're preserving more over a larger segment that
would have a no build and then you would.. . still would average it all out. The parking lot, but
still, you're taking away... That's critical. One of the other issues we're talking about, we're
really focusing in on the primary and the secondary corridor. You brought that up before. I think
we need to look carefully at it. That line was drawn based on information that we had.
Vegetation. Wildlife. And we had to look carefully at where exactly that line falls and maybe in
some places it might depend on some of the corridor. That's something we may have to give in
order to get something. Put that flexibility in it. Maybe, you try to have an ordinance that's
flexible and Mark and I discussed that maybe as details come in, the plans come in and we say
well you know what, that line, you know just like a wetland. It's kind of...a wetland but when
we get better information, we've got to build some flexibility into it to say maybe this is an area
that.. .but we'll let that slide but we'll try to stick it up here because we can enhance this area.
Somehow we've got to build that flexibility into the ordinance. That's going to be a challenge.
Mark Koegler: That would be my comment too is we have considered it would be like a wetland
delineation. Whereby you take a better look at it and see if truly this.. . really works or whether
it's more refined than that. I think there's another aspect that the plan speaks to also and that is
that while we're focusing on the primary and secondaries, we're not losing track of the entire
watershed and the plan talks about, I think realizes that in some cases compromises will have to
be made over the course of time. So it advocates looking at the watershed as a whole and you
know, maybe you make up for it. You don't do that maybe totally but at least in some context
you make up for it elsewhere in the corridor. It's maybe not quite in such a sensitive area but it
helps balance it overall, and I think those are the kinds of trade-offs we're going to have to look
at and see what fits. It's not going to be easy on that, that's probably the most extreme example
that you can identify out of any of them. That one's at least a little easier to deal with because
it's a sizable parcel. You know of equal concern is the smaller parcel that's in the middle of
these that has no opportunity to acquire something else and how do we deal with that if it's
totally encumbered and that's where again the purchase may be a factor.
Peterson: General question Mark. This is really the first time that we've seen an overall
purpose. As you build the ordinance, as I assume you're building it now. Give us some sense if
you would as to how much detail we can expect. Obviously we're going to need it as a tool in
seeing proposals in front of us.
Mark Koegler: We're trying to I guess respond certainly with a level of detail that's going to
make it a tool and not make it something that's ambiguous. You know we are looking at the
impervious cover limitations that will contain suggested numbers that you'll have a chance to
review and see you know and they'll obviously be compared to other aspects ofthe City Code.
As I mentioned in my quick comments, there are other resource protection measures that are
outlined in the plan such as bluffs and things that we need to make sure are covered between that
and other sections in the Code as well. So the intent is that it will be tangible. You know
something certainly that has enough details in the standards that it's not an ambiguous, lay it over
the top and try to see what fits. The challenge is still unfolding though, I'll be quite candid with
you. It's, we have a lot of work yet to do but. One of the things that I'm interested in I guess in
13
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
feedback. One of the things that has been of some concern on the housing front is, it's easy as
we talked about before to talk about density transfers and then when you get into a Planning
Commission meeting and you've got a proposal in front of you, sometimes the chairs are full and
sometimes those decisions are quite as easy and I'm curious, probably not a lot of reaction from
Creekside. Was there much resident reaction from Walnut Grove? Probably in the course of
some meetings talking about densities and shifting units here and there and was that something
that people were very sensitive to. So I think that's an issue that's going to be faced later down
the road each time one of these subdivisions come in and you'll be forced with balancing the
objectives of this plan with balancing maybe sentiments of people in the area and what they want
to see.
Peterson: And there was significant on Walnut Grove but it was primarily with the single family
homes to the north. Talking about what kind of density was between them and the high density
and that transition. My reaction, I think we have less resistance because this is essentially a new
area. It's, it will go in gradually. As soon as we plant one in there, persons next to it in a
different kind of density are going to be the ones sitting in the chairs. But at least we can
compare individuals living in the area as to what is going around them. I don't think the staff, we
deal with this all the time. As people come in and ask, well what's going to go next to me.
Aanenson: I think it's our job to make the compelling argument about what we're preserving and
what we're trying to accomplish. Preservation.. .long term corridor. What we're trying to
accomplish... Clustering. Not necessarily increasing the...
Peterson: This is kind of off the wall but after we had it set and.. . exactly the way it would have
proceed. Is there any way we can deal with developers to provide buyers, put buyers with
information regarding what that whole area is and 3 miles around them is going to be?
Aanenson: I think as part of the public hearing process, that's something that the comprehensive
plan is trying to do. I think the developers though, the larger...that's what we've been trying to
say that the area of the city along the creek in the southern area, because of it, it's going to be
developed. It's not going to be.. .so I'm not talking about density of development.. .and 1 think
the people that are down there are good stewards of the land and they care about their property. . .
Peterson: I just want to be able to provide some easy way ofletting residents know. I mean
public hearings aren't going to do it.
Aanenson: No. There's going to be some areas where we've got those larger lots.
Mark Koegler: One thing that's interesting about this entire endeavor is this ordinance piece that
we're focusing on is just one piece of the whole thing, and if you recall on looking through the
implementation plan, that as the part of that overall document, there's a lot of educational, a lot
of resource kind of outreach things and I would presume it's quite possible. Somewhere along
the line somebody will produce some kind of a printed piece about this. Kind of a summary
version if you will of a plan that could be available generally to the public. Something like that
would make an excellent way to help people understand what is out there and what they're
14
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
maybe buying a house adjacent to. That implementation program is just full of different
approaches. Everything from funding mechanisms to acquisition mechanisms and I've got to
think coming out of that there's a lot of education that's a part of that as well. So I think there
will be great opportunities to really publicize the resource that's there for the people of
Chanhassen.
Aanenson: Good point too. We had on the steering committee some.. .Bluff Creek Elementary
they'd use that as a resource so we need to talk about going back to why we're doing this. That'd
be good...And now with the acquisition of the 100 acres on the north end...passive park and how
that ties back in...
Mark Koegler: Great opportunity there for all these little elementary kids to go home and
educate their parents.
Peterson: That may be one way of doing it. So we see the draft on the 15th? Is that pretty much
in stone?
Mark Koegler: Yeah.. . ordinance in place by the end of the year. That was in response to
physically too, some of the kinds of concerns that the commission had. Identifying a path and
trying to keep things moving along as people keep marching on with projects. So we're looking
at coming back with a draft on the 15th. I think the packet that you go had a typo in it, that
November 5th will be the Planning Commission public hearing. We weren't scheduling a special
meeting for you on a Friday or whatever date that ended up being. And hopefully then going to
Council on about the 24th of November for review and beginning of action by that body so that
things are essentially in place by the end of the year. We're pushing for that schedule and have
every reason to believe that we can adhere to that.
Aanenson: If you do need another meeting, there is another Planning Commission available in
November. If you do need that before the next Council meeting in December, you can do that.
Peterson: Does this assume we can get the ordinance draft?
Aanenson: You'll get it ahead of time.
Mark Koegler: Oh yeah. I don't expect you to speed read it that night. Promise.
Peterson: Thanks.
Mark Koegler: Thank you.
APPROV AL OF MINUTES: LuAnn Sidney noted the Minutes of the Planning Commission
meeting dated September 3, 1997 as presented.
ONGOING ITEMS:
15
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Aanenson: Yes, we are set for October work session. We'll have it upstairs in the courtyard
conference room. I've also scheduled Planning Commission interviews. We've got four
candidates.
Peterson: Four?
Aanenson: Yeah, so ifit's okay, can we start at 6:00 that night?
Joyce: I'm not going to be here that night. I'm going to be out of town. You're not going to
have a public meeting then, the first is what you're saying?
Aanenson: No. We'll just start at 6:00. Have dinner. Have the City Attorney talk about legal
issues. Planning Commissioners and from 7:00 to 8:00, I thought we'd talk about other ongoing
issues. Goals for next year. Kind of where we're at with ongoing issues. And then I set up
interviews from 8:00 to 9:00...
Peterson: Why don't we try to get tape recorders there. I mean not knowing what Roger's going
to say but I assume anything he'll say will be.. .advice. I'd like to be able to.
Aanenson: Sure. We can do that.
Peterson: Even for new members that would be.
Aanenson: I know Alison will be there...
Peterson: Anything about the Council? I guess they haven't seen much until they get the car
dealership on Monday.
Aanenson: Yeah, that will be Monday. And actually as far as the application, we're looking at
the second meeting of November. . . October when Mark will be back and then hopefully we'll
see. . . that meeting.
Brooks: How are they doing?
Aanenson: Actually they threw the baby out with the bath. They're starting from the beginning.
Which is sometimes the best, yeah. Sometimes the best thing to do. We'll also have the element
of the comprehensive plan, the water... Transportation, we're working with Carver County. We
added on to theirs.. .out to bid and we added onto our issue. Hopefully they'll meet our
deadlines. Right now we're still tracking with, we'll probably hold our public hearing end of
March, first part of April.
Brooks: So you're using SR. ..
Aanenson: Yes. We did give them, ask them for a bid and had what we wanted in engineering...
16
Planning Commission Meeting - September 17, 1997
Brooks: They did a pretty nice job.. . steering committee. ... why are we doing a plan if there's
no money to build the roads anyway. And.. .of SRF came back and very eloquently said, rightly
so that if there is money, we need a plan. If you don't have one...
Aanenson: So they're sitting down with members of our staffand...go through, we're going to
need some.. .but that's going to be our last... Actually for the council and for you, that's going to
be critical in our road management...
Peterson: Any other discussion points? May I have a motion and a second to close?
Brooks moved, Joyce seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The meeting was adjourned at 8:00 p.m.
Submitted by Kate Aanenson
Planning Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
17
in.
PARK & RECREATION COMMISSION MINUTES
SEPTEMBER 23, 1997
A special work session was called to order at 6:00 p.m. by Co-Chair Berg. Work completed
included the development of a proposed 1998 Park Acquisition and Developmen~, and Park &
Trail Acquisition and Development Capital hnprovetne~ Program.(ClP). The review of the
Recreation Section of the ComprehensivePlatt.was schedule<i, but ~not discussed.
The regular meeting was called to order at 7:30p.m. All members were pr~tincluding: Chair
Lash. Vice.Chair Berg,Cotnmissioners Frcmk$.Meger. Roeser, Mandets andH:Qwe. Staff
present: Todd Hoffinan. Park & Recreation pir<<tor; Jetty Ruegemerand.Patty Dexter,
Recreation SupervisoJ.'S;an<lAnnBllwood,FllCiljtySupervisor. ~.asenda'v-as approved as
presented. There were no public announcements.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: Those present for Visitor Presen~tions incl1.Kied:
Chuck, Sara It Andrew Spevacek, 6474 Murray Hill Ro~.Excelsior
Cody Zllder.6831 Galpin BoUlevar<i, Excelsior
Joe'Sullivan, 6421 Fox. Path, ClYtnl1assen, MN
,
Andrew spoke of his desire to see a BMX bike trackcotl.StrUC1:ed witbillthe City ofChanhassen.
Andrew referenced one such rin1c that is constnJcted ~.Intetstate 494. He bad previously sent
the chy council a letter d~i1inghis request. Tbe COrJ:UnissiOll'was appreciative of Andrew's
presentation and requested that "a staff report bepre,pared on the item fot the October Park &.
Recreation Conuni$$ion meeting.
APPROVAL OF SUMMAltYMlNtrrES: ~i$$iQner Mart~moved, Roeser seconded
to approve the minutes as presented. All voted in favor. and themotiottcamed.
At this point there was a change in the arderof business as presented 011 the agenda.
RECEIVEnASIBILITV aEPQ,RT, TWIN tITlES. Wf.SURN~ltQAJ) TRAIL,
MARKET JOULEVARD TO LAKE SUSAN P:ARK: A stafftepott was presented discussing
the findings ofHois~gtQn :K~gler {#oup, the cotl$Ultantr~ ro m-ovide the feasibility report
on this issue. Upondiscl1ssing the difficulties assocta~ed with cot1Sf,rt1Ction6fthisttailt the
commission made the following motion. .Manders move<1, Roeser secQllded: to recommend that
the Park & Recreation Conuni.ssion infotIXl the EDA of its tlndinB aJl<l that JlO furth~ action be
taken on the proposed railr<>adU'ail trom Marketlk>Ul_var4tQL.e~~~. Fut'tbertnore,
that the railroitd underpass i$be8t~ft as' an ~t ~p0rt8.tiQt1route utilized by those who
choose to use it. AU votodin favorat1d the motion camed.
PROGRAM REPORTS:
00. 1997198 ()pen S~te and,ll~~y RbtkProlratll: The COnuniSSWll approved the
foll()W~ locations as 1997/98 skating locations:
Park & Recreation Commission MiauteS
September 23, 1997
Page 2
Carver Beach PlaygroUI1d
ChanhQsenHills Park
Cbanhassen Recreation Center
City Center Park
Meadow 6reenPark
Roundhouse Park
NOrth Lotus Lake Park
Rice Marsh Lake Park
1 pleasure skating
1 pleasure skating
IpleasureJ 2hoclreY, 1 warming house
1 pleasureJ 2"hockey; I wanning:house
1 pleasure
1 pleasure
Ipl~, 1 hockey, 1 wahning house
Ipl~
6b. 1997 SUDUlierGate AtteDdant RepOl"ttLake ADD Park aDd SouiIa Lottl"Late PatIn
The staff Nport was presented on the iten1disclosing the following recommendation.
That the gate attendant program at Lotus Lake:be tetminatecL Furthermore, totalrevenue
over. expenditures were $7,047 .14 less adrim1istrative overhead,brirtging this total closer
to $3,000-$4,000 profit. The commission, in cOnsidering whether or not to continue the
Lake Ann gate program, discussed the need for a Ilewgate house at a cost of
approximately $4,000 for the entrance of Lake' Ann ~ Over the past few years, the
commissiOn bas been less and less 'convinced that ihegate attendant prOgram is a positive
program for the communityofCbanhasseu.' NOt only does it cr~ ill feelings by many
who are irritated at bavingto pay to acceSs' the:pUik,but it also Places employees at risk
who are forced to work in a very isolated environment witheash present. ,The
conunission" came to the c~clusion that they we~e not in favor of continuing the Lake '
Ann Oateprogram. In light of this, COm'tnissioner Manders moved, Commissioner
Meger seconded a recommendation to the city eoWicil to terminate the Lake Ann Park
and Lotus Lake Park gate attendants for the 1998 season. AU voted in favor and the
motion. carried.
60. 1m Su....er PrOgram Report: This repOrt covered twents including"Summer .
. DiscoveryPlaygtound, Lake AnnAdven~'C~tans lessons, SWnmer Sensanons,
Kids in.the Kitchen, Awesome Art,babysiUing.elasSeS;'Tae K:wm Do, in~line skating,
Fishing for Fun, YMCA oo-spoosoredpro~; wtng Dings, and Super Events.
ADMNINISTRATlVE'REPORTS
7a.Chanltassea=ReereatioJi C.ter Monthly Repett: Amt Ellwood, Facility Supervisor
presented the Otad1assen RecreanoR cemer:monthly report .includmginfonnationon the
facility, hours of operation, upcbmingpt'Oln()tions," and "pmgranlming.
7b. Request for Qualtflcadons, Park & TraD Referen4ulllProjeets: Theeommismon was
given the opportutlity to review the qualification pack~ receiVed upon soliciting requests
for qualifications for referendum park andttailprOjeeu. .
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Park & Recreation Commission Minutes
September 23, 1997
Page 3
OLD BUSINESS
HANDICAPPED ACCESSmILITY REPORT, GQENWooD SHORES PARK: The
commission received the individual Facility Accessibility Report fot Greenwood Shores Park.
Ms. Julee Quarve-Peterson ofRSP Architectspresertted the report. Items covered included
parking, picnic areas, doc.k, beach ~s,and portabl~ toilet .facility. It was recommended that
one van accessible parking tUlU be provided at the lower part of the road to the lift. SUltion. This
van accessible parking stall will provide a means for petSO~ withdiSabiliti. .tppark their car in
close proximity to activity areas instead of negotiating a steepandpoten.tially dangerous path of
travel. Regarding picnic areas, it is recommended that a minimum of 1 of the picnic Ulbles be
modified so that an accessibltpatbof travel is ptovidod leadin.gto 61e. picniC Ulble. The Ulble is
to be positioned on an aceessible pad. In addition, it is teQOlJ:U1l~that.a path of travel be
provided leading from the picnic Ulble to tbeneate$1grlll.' Reg~gthe d~k, it is
recommended that an accessible path of travel be provided leading .U) .,tIle dOCk. This may be in
conjunction with the accessible path ofttavelleading.to.the water's edge. Regarding beach
access, it is recommenr.1edthat an aecessible paUtofmtvelbe.p.toYid.e4to~ water's edge.
Regarding the portable toilet facility, it is recommended that an accessible portable toilet facility
be provided. In addition, it is recommended that either an' acc~sible path be provided leading to
the existing location of the accessible portable toilet facility, or that the toilet facility be relocated
to be positioned in close proximity to an accessible path of travel.
The commission discussed their concern over introducing vehicles to the interior of Greenwood
Shores Park. In lieu of this, they cbose to make the following reconnnendation regarding on-
street parking. Commissioner Meger moved, Commissioner6erg seconded to recommend the
city council remove all of the no parking signs currently insUllledon Utica Lane with the
exception of those required at the curve near the entranCe of the paitfor safety reasons.
Furthermore, that the access area around the gate be widened and surfaced with asphalt. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
PARK & TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CIP:FolloWing a lengthy
discussion regarding the proposed 1998 Park Acquisition & DevelopmentCIP, the commission
recommended the following expenditures:
,
Bandimere Community Park
Chanhassen Estates Park Parking Improvements
Kerber Pond Park SigDage
Chanhassen Recreation Center Irrigation
City Center Park
Lake Ann Park ConcessionlRestroom ijuilding
Picnic TableslBencbes
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Miscellatt<<JUs Signage
$100,000
12,000
2,000
80,000
100,000
75,000
3,000
2,000
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Park &. Rec:l'eatioD Commission Minutes
September 23, 1997
Page 4
Scout Projects
Contingency
Recycling Containers
Trails, Asphalt
Furtherniore, it ~ recotmilended that the tbUowing reserves be establi$hed:
1,000
10,000
5,000
15,000
Lake Ann P1uk, Future Expansion (per year)
Arts &. Theater (pe:ryear)
50,000
50,000
In addition, it waS recommended that the general reserve be raiseclfrorn$300,OOOto $400;000..
Upon concluding their-discussion,Commissiooer Megermovoct Commissioner Berg$eCOnt:ted
to recommend that the city coUilcil approve the 1998 Park &. trail Acquisition andDeve!opment
CIP as presented. All voted in favor and the mononcamC;d. . .
Discussiori of the Park &. Trail Acquis1tion.and Development 's Y _ CIP was tabled.
CommisSioner Berg moved, CommisSioner Fraftkmoved ID adjourn the meeting at 10:15 p.m.
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Todd Hoffinan
Park & Recreation Director
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