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3a Special Assessment Assistance for Empak/Instant Web CITY OF CHANHASSEN ~3~ 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147. CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 . FAX (612) 937-5739 MEMORANDUM TO: Don Ashworth, City Manager FROM: Todd Gerhardt, Assistant City Manager TC/j.:- DATE: November 5, 1997 SUBJ: Special Assessment Assistance for Empak/Instant Web Companies Regarding County Road 17 Improvements Staff was directed by the city council to review the contractual obligations between the HRA, Empak, and Instant Web Companies. To date, John Dean (HRA attorney) has determined that the Private Redevelopment Agreement between the HRA and Empak is not binding and the HRA has no obligation to assume the County Road 17 special assessments. Because the contract does not call out for the County Road 17 assistance, the city cannot provide assistance back to Empak under state statute. Staff is still in the process of reviewing documents regarding Instant Web Companies' contractual obligations and has scheduled another meeting for November 6, 1997 at 3 p.m. Staff will send out a report on Friday, November 7 to update all council members on the results of our meeting on Thursday. G:\admin\tg\cr 17assmts.doc City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 maybe. But personally. I mean, if it looks smoother. If it looks nicer. If it blends better. I'd just as soon see landscaping there as I would a berm quite honestly. I mean I think it would add. Mayor Mancino: A wall. Retaining wall. Councilman Mason: Or a wall, excuse me. I'm sorry. But yeah, these, and I don't know. The lighting and the window, well ifit can't be done it can't be done but some of these other changes do seem a little drastic to me and I guess my concern is, and I share Kate's feelings is that I don't really see any detail here. And I want to get this going too so. Mayor Mancino: Michael, if I could respond to a couple things that you said. First of all I think that there is something clean about not having the railing but if you look at the original design, the railing is very important because it is what connects all the different compatible architecture. It's that one railing that goes along the whole boardwalk so there is that connective feeling. Now if you took the retaining wall and put landscaping on it, you know and bermed it instead and saw a really good landscaping plan, that might work. My only question there is, maintaining It and the maintenance that goes with that after the first year and how well will it be maintained, etc. And so there I would need to make sure that there is some plan in place for annual maintenance and monies escrowed accordingly to keep it up. And it would also have to be though then on again, this is one complex, the rest of that berm that would go m front of all the other developments too. Because that's kind of how the retaining wall went. It was supposed to be a, you know a stone retaining wall in front. CouncIlman Engel: It was supposed to run along the, in front of the yellow and the red and dark tan bUlldmg as well. That wall runs the whole length? Councilman Senn: It's an elevated walkway. Councilman Engel: Okay, an elevated walk along there. Mayor Mancino: Yes. That is a boardwalk next to the buildings. And the other thing we're missing is the sense of street scape on the boardwalk. There are no pots. There are no benches. Nothing that make It for people to want to walk on that boardwalk and to sit and, etc. I mean I think that was one of the reasons why the original had, again if you go to the Lagoon Theater, any other old time theater, they have the posters up in the nice glass frames. But anyway, I'll be quiet now. Councilman Engel: I like Mr. Copeland's idea regarding the window above the marquee and you say you've got a problem with the construction materials and putting that.. .designed. Instead you had to work around where you put the lighting in the side panels. Do you get the same effect? Councilman Senn: That assumes you're going to change the construction materials. Mayor Mancino: No. Yeah, that's assuming. Councilman Engel: Go ahead, yeah. Bob Copeland: The reason we left it off the plans is because it's very difficult, nothing's impossible, but very difficult to... punch holes at this location and support these heavy pre-cast... that form the frame for this window. However, it's come to our attention that this is a big deal to have this back lit window appearance and so we have, that's been pointed out to us. We have to figure out a way to put in some 29 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 lighted panels without making holes, that would be out flush with this pre-cast frame. And I'm saying we'll do that. Councilman Engel: Yeah, I'm just looking for that. I think that's, I think it's a nice touch. That lighting effect above the marquee so your work. .. sounds okay to me without having seen it. The boardwalk, I am concerned about keeping that rail as it connects the rest ofthose buildings. And I like the idea of the posters as well. It gives you that old, it gives you that period feel. And I'm just afraid when you take that out on that side, that's all gray, it begins to look a little bland along that wall. And the same thing with the detail on the slope, landscaping. I'd like to see something...detail on it. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Senn. Councilman Senn: Well, I don't know. I suppose just take it issue by issue. I mean as far as the wall and the rail goes, I mean I'd be, I'm going to say strongly opposed to eliminating that from the project. Now, my mind might be changed with a lot of detail, but I'm just saying I'm going to say that's doubtful. The hill's landscaped I think are going to be a maintenance problem. They're going to be kids magnets in the first place, you know so whether the owner tries or doesn't try, I think it's going to be a difficult task at best. What we, you know a lot of what we were sticking our money into was effectively to accomplish tying this whole area and facade together and I guess I somewhat share your comments Nancy in terms of, you know I think that has a, that wall and that railing have a lot to do with tying you know this whole thing together. The backlit windows. I mean again, based on what's a known, again what we bought and what we approved, and again the lack of detail, I just, I have a hard time really figuring out If the proposed change would enhance it or not enhance it so I guess I don't know the answer to that. As far as the exterior goes, the coloration, I don't know. I'm not that hung up over whether we're talkmg about taupes and creams versus grays and whatever. I mean I think there needs to be color separation in the building. Okay now. Mayor Mancino: Now remember the building next to it is brick. ' Councilman Senn: No, I understand. And so in the context of what is next to it and the context of the overall colors, and we have kind of a grand plan that's been approved and we know it works together. The part that disturbs me about that is if we start changing it, you know we're going to change the whole plan and then how do we address the other ones coming in and those people can come before us and say, well this is what you already approved but it may in effect end up clashing with or not fitting in with what's next door to it. So again have we really accomplished anything? No. It seems we've stuck $545 in to tie a project together that may not want to tie together, I don't know. But if the colors, you know can be proven to tie together in a fashion, I mean I guess I'mjust saying I'm not hung up over a particular color tone one way or the other. But I am, I do want to see some, I mean I don't want to see one bland color out there either. From an exterior finish standpoint, well I don't know. Personally I wasn't that hot on the finish that we had in the first place. I'm less hot on the proposed change in finish. So I mean to me, it's just a step in the wrong direction. The sign area or the posters. Again, I don't know. The posters can certainly add some relief to the building. You know where they're put in and how they're put in. Again, there's a lot of detail that at least you know, from what we're looking at, I'm going to say it's real difficult to tell the impact of that one way or the other. With some more detail we might, that might be easier to evaluate. As far as detailed landscaping and detail furniture, detail lighting, detail light fixture, detail signage, that's a lot of detail I think we need at this point yet. It needs to be evaluated to you know, I don't know most ofthat I'm pretty comfortable with staff giving the, a good feeling from us on evaluating themselves but.. . we tied a lot of again, facade dollars into creating some character down there and creating a certain feeling and a certain image and my general feeling is with these changes, 30 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 we're departing from that. And you know, at the same time, as you all know, I'm kind of also on the opposite end of the spectrum. Kind of a big advocate well, if that's what they want to do, they have some rights to do it as long as they stay WIthin our ordinance. And I think that's fine. But then we don't need to put $545,000.00 into facade improvements or enhancing facade improvements which was the whole purpose of the thing in the first place. So I think there's some decisions there that need to be made as to what's important. But the $545,000.00, at least in my mind, has bought us something we've agreed to buy and unless I see a real good reason to change it, or if I see some real good justification to change it, I just think it's kind of like water over the dam. Why should we be changing it at this point? Mayor Mancino: Well let's see if I've pulled people's thoughts together or not and add a few of my own. I think that the one area that Council members feel that they would be willing to look at would be the retaining wall, berm area but we'd need to see a very detailed landscaping plan of the berm area and how that would work. And again a Council member, stop me if there's a difference of opinion here. But I do feel that there was consensus around continuing having the hand rail and continuing that again on the entIre complex, on the entire boardwalk which would pull everything together and be that one unifying factor. And obviously the berm will do that but it can have different landscape materials on it. The two, the fake window above the entrance to the theater for I think a couple of us who would be willing to look at the alternative, we'd need some more details on that. We'd need some drawings and how that works. We certainly want the effect of back lighting. We certainly want the detail of the wmdow and the differences. What that would really look like. If it would really simulate a backlit window by domg what you have suggested. So we'd need to look at that a little further. The exterior of the buildmg was approved with a stucco efface, or a stucco finish efface. Again the color IS going to be in, that's dyed, right? It's not painted on, etc. Is that Kate? Bob Copeland: It's stained... Mayor Mancmo: Okay. It's not injected into the outside material. Bob Copeland: No, it's a stain...a stain that goes on like a paint... Mayor Mancino: Okay. I think that there was consensus with the Council members that we stick with the original approved finish which Will also be used in another building in this complex. And number four, the Sign area where the poster was proposed to be kept. We'd like to see that kept and more detail around that. I'd also like to see some, or have staff look at and approve the detail around the columns in the original drawings also. The relief that they will give. Nobody really responded to the goose neck light fixtures. Is there a consensus? Councilman Senn: Well we don't have a lighting plan or lightmg detail. Mayor Mancino: So just when we see that, okay. Does that pretty well pull it together for Council members? Councilman Senn: Well besides lighting plan, lighting detail, I think we need landscaping. I think we need furniture. Mayor Mancino: Streetscape furniture. 31 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: Streetscape types of things. I think we still need, you know I think we need signage because that's the only way, at least in my mind we're going to tie in that issue ofthe poster frames and that sort of thmg. Mayor Mancino: Okay. Councilman Mason. Councilman Mason: Well I wonder ifin lieu of all of this, to give Mr. Copeland a chance to think about things too perhaps a little bit. I would just as soon table this for a couple of weeks until we can get some more detail. Mayor Mancino: Get these details back. Councilman Mason: Yeah. Because I'm not, you made some comments about consensus and I'm not convinced that consensus is there on a couple of the issues. Mayor Mancino: Oh, well then speak to that. Councilman Mason: Well, I don't, while as I understand the concern for the hand rail all the way around, I think if I can see, if I could see a plan that would show me that looks just as nice without it, I certainly would conSIder It. Mayor Mancino: Well there just won't be anything there, yeah. Councilman Mason: Well, right. But I'm not, I think I could argue just as effectively. Mayor Mancino: If there were bushes up there or something. Councilman Mason: Having that one, I mean maybe then without the hand rail there, that becomes a focal point instead of a unifying feature around it so I hesitate a little bit on some of that. But I would have, there's no way I could vote for the recommendation as it stands, but I certainly would vote to table to get some more detail to make a more educated decision on the changes that Mr. Copeland would like to make. Mayor Mancino: And I will add to that and say, I'm only willing to if some of the things that are taken off of this, like a hand rail, be shown how the rest of the complex will look. I mean it's got to apply to everythmg because this whole. Councilman Mason: What do you mean it's got to apply to everything? Mayor Mancino: Well the whole design of this complex was taken with every single building in mind so if you take it off, I want to see how that plays against the rest of the complex. That's all I'm saying. I mean if we're going to go in and start redesigning each individual building now, and spending our time here, we've already approved something. We've already gone through this. Councilman Mason: Look, if we want to throw that kind of stuff out, every time excuse me. Every time I reel against a variance, people tell me you've got to take things individually so you can't have it both ways. Now I mean, I hope I'm not getting too testy here but you know I sit up here standing almost 100% against variances and I get told almost 100% ofthe time, well yeah. We can give a variance there but you know the guy next door is an individual circumstance so you know, just because we gave a 32 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 variance here, you know we're not talking about variances. If there are some legitimate changes that this whole Council agrees can be made, fine. If this whole Council says they can't be, that's fine too. Mayor Mancino: Okay. I'mjust saying I want to see how it ties in with everything else. Councilman Mason: Sure, no problem. No problem. Mayor MancIno: The only other thing that I saw a difference in, Mr. Copeland was the exit doors and those are different than what's on the drawing too. The ones in the original drawing, there was more, again architectural detail around the doors. They again are on a boardwalk, especially on one side where one of the drawings shows an overhead, I don't know. It's not a marquee but it's something. Councilman Senn: A cornice. Mayor Mancino: A cornice over the doors. The other thing is the original drawings had backlit on some of the cornIce areas. There's also, not only back lighting in the window area but there is some back lightIng in the, under the cornices. So I'm assuming those will still be there too. So may I have a motion please. Councilman Mason: I will move to table this until the next Council meeting to give Mr. Copeland the time to provide a little more detail to the changes he'd like to make. Contingent upon your request to see how It fits wIth the whole. Councilman Engel: I'll second that. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Engel seconded to table the site plan amendment for the Chanhassen Cinema to the next Council meeting contingent upon the changes being made to the cinema being shown with the entire complex. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Mancino: Are there any other issues or clarity that staff or Mr. Copeland, that you need prior to comIng back and what we'd like to see? Okay, thank you. REVIEW GOALS-LIVABLE COMMUNITIES ACT, PLANNING DIRECTOR. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. ... when we signed on with the Livable Communities Act. . . the goals. Renegotiate the goals in 2 years. That time frame comes to an end on November 15tl1. Since we did the goal, staff, with the approval of City Council, has guided those areas of the city that were either undesignated or were inappropriately zoned in a holding zone or the like so the future land uses of the city have been determined. In the process of doing that it made it a lot easier to go back and re-evaluate where we were as far as data on whether we meet these goals. Included in the packet we put the original goals that were signed and the proposed new goals. Attached with that, we've documented where we are as far as what we did in 1990. '91 where we were. It's a breakdown of single family ownership, rental. Where we are to date and where we believe we're going. We've broken that down by what's currently in the MUSA line. What's outside the MUSA. We've even tried to break it down based on what we believe we'll be showing you with the comprehensive plan update. Kind of a strategy for bringing land into the MUSA area. It's pretty well documented and we think, we're pretty confident in our numbers. Obviously you can't always predict a market but based on current trends, and that's the best information that we have, where we're going. We know the markets out there changing. We've documented that in here... Also included in the packet is a summary of the 1995-96 and where we are.. .as far as 1997. Just 33 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 to refresh your memory, back in 1995 was the first year ever in the history of the city, we did more attached housing than we did single family detached. By 262 non-traditional detached, and 216 traditional single family detached in 1995. That was the first year, first time ever in the history. In 1996, significant change. We did 170 single family detached and only 37. We based that anomaly on the fact that all those units were taken out of the market. We had projects that weren't on line yet. As a matter of fact a lot of the projects were still haven't been brought to market. Right now where we are processing a lot of non-traditional single family detached. Walnut Grove and Autumn Ridge, which is now underway. Those permits are moving faster. As we've told you before, the larger home market is slowing down. Those in the upper price range are slowing down. .. if we can get something under $200,000.00, that seems to move a lot faster. I believe we indicated to you before that all 76 permits out on North Bay, which is considered single family detached, even though it's...5,000 square foot lots, all 75 of those permits were pulled this year. So that's reflected in single family. If you look at where the price range, the average price range are, you can see the price, average single family price, how that's going down, skewed by the fact that those homes, those 76 homes, there's a large percentage if you look at what we've done as far as single family, is in a more affordable price range. So while it looks like it's, the average home pnce is dropping, it's... We're pretty confident in what we're projecting here again based on current trends and... to believe that while we will always be predominantly single family detached housing, what we're going to see a lot more of different alternative housing. We are very confident we're going to meet our life cycle goals. We're not recommending changing that 34% not.. . single family. To meet that. The goal that we are recommending changes is the owner/renter mix. We had.. .based on what we've looked at here, unless there's some other.. .it'd be very difficult to try to.. . and that's, we put some assumption in here. We'd have to double what's out there right now as far as rental. 1,400. We'd have to double that in the next... We're not sure that we can bring another 1,400 on... IF we do another senior housing project in Villages on the Pond, which we haven't counted into this yet, and then bringing in the southern area. Something WIth transit. We talked about meeting another mixed project. Maybe on the Hidden Valley site. I don't think realistically we can get another 1,400 rental. . . so what that did is, we changed the owner renter mix and then that also affected what we put down for our goals as far as affordability because we're not having any affordability.. .on ownership down 30% also... That's based on current market trends. If you look at what we put in the summary, the last few projects that we've done, we've been very successful. If you look at Walnut Grove. We had 52% affordability. North Bay, 46. Autumn Ridge, 59% affordability... Again those are more PUD mixed... What's hurting us is that we've got so many built in subdivisions that have already been approved, single family large lot that's already, that's skewing our numbers because it's such, single family detached.. . out there right now. It's going to take a lot of the other type product to change the number ratio, if that makes sense. We have a lot of stock out there in single family, and we're going to still see some more coming on line that have already been designated. Then we also have some multi- family that's sitting out there that may never come in that we had counted on for... That's Eckankar which is right close to downtown.. . being in close proximity to downtown. And the Gorra property which also had a high density designation. What the timing of that would be...those are significant numbers as far as dwelling units. So with that we are recommending a change to, in those numbers for the housing.. . staff recommends supporting six goals. Principals and these are pretty much straight forward that we have in our comprehensive plan, the housing element. But it does take a resolution approval by the City Council and we're recommending it. I'd be happy to answer any. Mayor Mancino: Any questions for staff? Councilman Senn: I've got a couple, if nobody else does. Kate, going back on I guess the Livable Communities Goals Analysis. This one here. 34 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Which page number are you on? Councilman Senn: There's no page numbers so I think it's the one on the back of the resolution. AT the top it says Livable Communities Goals Analysis. Dated 10-22-97. Mayor Mancino: Oh, thank you. Counctlman Senn: If you look at effectively the trends between 1990 and 1996, we went from roughly 3,600 ownership units to 5,600 ownership units, but in that increase of 2,000 units, effectively 300 of them were affordable. Which is roughly around, what is that? That's 6 or 7. 6%, 7%, something like that. Or no, it'd be more than that. 300 out of 2,000 would be a little over 10%, right? Councilman Engel: Yep. CouncIlman Senn: But so, I mean pretty small numbers and if you look at the rental, we've gone from 637 units to 702 units. And affordable wise we've gone from 280 to 319, there but just In terms of the rental. I mean effectively all we've done is produced about what, 60 new rental units? Kate Aanenson: 65. Senior housing. Councilman Senn: Okay, and that was to be my next question. I assume that's the senior project. And okay. And those are, I mean are those truly affordable housing units or are they affordable housing units because of the senior subsidies attached to them? Kate Aanenson: There is in there a number of those are affordable...5 of those 65 units that meet the criteria by the Met CounciL.. There's other assistance that we're not counting in here that we're providIng that we're getting credit for and that's the fact... Councilman Senn: Because the MET Council doesn't care how we get there, does It? Kate Aanenson: Well you get credit for all those things.. .that's under the goals. But we're also gettIng credit for, nght downtown the apartment building that used assisted housing. Tax credit. All those thIngs that we do... block grant money went towards helping... All of those things.. . affordable housing. So you're right on the numbers here but if you look at what's happened on '95 and '96 and.. . find out what the goals... Councilman Senn: Well no, I understand but I mean like everything else, we're betting on the come. I mean we don't know whether those 300 units are going to be built or not yet so. All I'm trying to get at IS if you take effectively what's happened over the last 6 years and even throw in the additional year at this point, I mean there's been really no additional progress. Kate Aanenson: Well I wouldn't say that though because you're taking.. .1995 was the first year we did more rental than affordable so I think you have to step back. Throw out '90, '91, '92, '93 and '94 because that was pretty much weighted single family. Councilman Senn: Okay, I mean let's throw out '90 to '95 and my guess is, even if you throw out '90 to '95, the change in the numbers here we're affecting on whether it's ownership or rental has been predominantly affected between '95 and '97, correct? 35 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Kate Aanenson: Right. Councilman Senn: I mean obviously, I'm sorry. I was taking that as a given. I mean I'm not trying to put a lot of weight on '90 to '95. They're like non-existent years as it relates to this. It kind of clutters up the data but I mean if you take these changes that have occurred between '95 and '97 and relative. Mayor Mancino: So we made a 10% increase. Councilman Senn: You know the relative scope of things in terms of what we're trying to do, okay. It's over a couple year period you sit there and you say well, you know. That 10% increase mayor may not seem bad, but then when you compare it overall to the goals, are we ever going to get there? Mayor Mancino: We're going to try. Kate Aanenson: ...I think we're going in the right direction. The reason 1990 is in there, that's the year that Met Council based our. .. The numbers that are on the regional city benchmark, city index. Those are based, as a general rule, based on the...census data that's in there. So as we explained before, if you look at this as any snapshot in time, you're going to move further or closer to those goals, depending on where the market is... That's why goals are set up to, as stated at the beginning, to work towards that... We are going to move, depending on what's moving in the marketplace.. . couple years to bring on... accomplished, based on our land use plan, and that's what this all comes back to. Based on what we've got guided for the city, and there's going to need some things we're going to have to do where we've got some.. .and we've got 50%. We are creative when we have those opportunities. Councilman Senn: Well I assume that the, I mean I assume all of this 2 year reporting now IS going to be consolidated and effectively put in some report back to the legislature. I mean do you have a feel for where, I mean the other cities, you know or third tier suburbs sit on this? I mean it'd be nice to be in a proactive position on that again rather than a reactive position because I mean if the picture isn't showing any progress, I think you're going to have one situation or even marginal progress. You're going to see one situation at the legIslature versus, you know what I'm saying. I mean there's going to be a definite movement afoot to, how would I say it, revisit. You know do you accomplish it and how do you put the teeth into accomplishing it and I just think it would be nice to know that ahead oftime if that's going to be something we're faced with and again be proactive to it rather than reactive to it. Because last time we were quite honestly all caught kind of short, you know, being in the reactive mode on it. It ended up coming out okay luckily, you know, but again I think the effort's going to be a lot more concentrated this time now given data, especially since one of the major proponents of it is a very data based person, I think would be a. Kate Aanenson: Well we used to give a report in every year. I could call the Met Council and they could give a copy of the report to other communities... It's not just the numbers. It's the other things that we do to assist affordable housing so... Councilman Senn: No, I understand that and I understand how that may impact what the Met Council. I guess the point I'm trying to make is I'm not sure that's going to have that big an impact when it goes to the legislature. Kate Aanenson: That's the report that goes to the legislature, right. And whether or not they feeL.. Councilman Senn: That's going to be more empirical. 36 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Well I like having the line in, looking at it. Renegotiating it, whatever you want to call it. Looking at in two years again to say how have we done. You know how have the market forces changed m our area. I mean just by looking at the new construction costs of a single family detached house is $163,000.00 compared to last year, $200,000.00, that's a huge difference. I mean even though 76 of those were. Kate Aanenson: ... but we are... Mayor Mancino: But It does tell you, I mean that's a huge number difference. The other cost that has come down or value difference is even the single family attached that's gone from $129 to $121. So and land costs aren't coming down. Councilman Senn: And there's positives and negatives with that whole argument too. Mayor Mancino: Yes, there are positives and negatives to that. Councilman Senn: Tax base. Mayor Mancino: Yep. Yep. Any other comments? Questions from staff? One other question. Kate, on the matrix under housing goals agreement on page 3. City index. Does that mean where we are nght now? Okay. Kate Aanenson: Again, that's 1990 data. There are a few that are. Mayor Mancino: Can we upgrade that? Kate Aanenson: Well that's what's going to measure us back against. Where we were in 1990. That's one other thmg. You have to look at the fact that we're going to bolster that and...as what's happening in the marketplace. For example we're getting away from the rental, there's no ifs, ands or but about It. As we contmue to add more single family, the ratio of rentals is going to be a problem. Substantial amount of smgle family and not the same ratIO. Mayor Mancmo: You can't change the marketplace. Kate Aanenson: Right, and that's what I'm saying. That's why we reflect the change. Right. Other forces that are going to have to be brought to bear. So I think if you want to renegotiate after 2 years, I'd be comfortable with that based on the fact that we're updating our comprehensive plan. We might just be tweaking it. . . Mayor Mancino: Sure. I think it's good for us to look at and make sure we're on track or where we're not on track. May I have a motion? Councilman Mason: Yes. I will move. Councilman Senn: On what? Oh, are we doing something? Mayor Mancino: Yes, we need to have a motion to go ahead. 37 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Mason: I will move approval of the 1997 Livable Communities Act with the changes as proposed in the staff report. Councilman Engel: Second. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Engel seconded to approve the 1997 Livable Communities Act with the changes proposed in the staff report. All voted in favor and the motion carried. DISCUSSION OF DOWNTOWN HISTORIC DISTRICT. Kate Aanenson: Thank you. The purpose of bringing this before you tonight is several. One, I wanted you just to kind of review the elements of the document. Kind of the boundaries that I established. The scoping of the document, and then review with you the procedure I'd like to take with it. And this should really go back to the Planning Commission for their review if they could, and have a public hearing and then be brought back before you. .. .kind of go through the document itself. This came about based on the, being precipitated by St. Hubert's moving and the change, possible change in use of the old St. Hubert's building. And it kind of changes the character of the neighborhood with the removal of the old Paulys/ Pony/Pryzmus site so with that Council wanted to look at what kind of this being the historic area. The centennial. We moved the railroad depot down there. Should we look at some architectural standards? So based on that we tried to develop a study area.. .really this is the core that's down there and try to label the uses that are down there. Give the existing, kind of the character to the area. There's a couple of documents that come into play with this. One was the Vision 2002. Some of you may have been involved in the process that kind of talked about what we're trying to do with the downtown and focus on this as the historic area of the city and what that means as far as the community's culture and how do we maintain that. Whether it's architecture or types of uses that you want to allow in that distnct. Some of the designs that you want to do to maintain that. Proximity to the street. Some of the same things we're trying to do in the downtown corridor itself. Also the comprehensive plan speaks to this area. The fact that we should try to preserve the structures. While there isn't a lot of architectural significance, really the ones would be the Village Hall and the Old St. Hubert's. The rest of them. . .have historic significance based on the fact of use of the building itself. And we do have better pictures of photo copies didn't go the greatest job on that but we have a pictorial essay of all the buildings that are down there just to give you an idea, kind of give you a flavor of design of the buildings themselves. What's down there. Starting on page 4, just try to go through the existing uses that are down there. . . future land uses and some possible alternatives. Again this is something I want the Planning Commission to go through. I know. . . park and rec desires for some open space down. .. The Planning Commission may have some different concerns so we'll kind of shift through that part of the hearing process and come back to you with more specific alternatives on the different designs. Such as the Colonial Center. We talked about that being an extension of the Medical Arts facility and moving that building forward. St. Hubert's, as you're aware, has several different opportunities, whether it retain a private religious school or even we've heard talk of maybe being senior housing facility. And also.. .introduce more residential property on the Schlenk property which that's guided for. And then the old Klingelhutz building down there which is historic in the fact that the date ofthe building, but ifthat was to go away, what should be the use on that and could that be something architecturally significant. Agam, we talked about the Pony/Pauly/Pryzmus site. Whether or not we want to form that comer.. .or maybe a pocket park and how useful that would be and how that should be presented. And then also I included the original. ..we've had a lot of requests for that to be commercial and the staff's position on that. Then also I just kind of gave a brief description of some designs that could be.. .recommendations that the Planning Commission wanted to do like an overlay or if they saw architectural. Maybe it's just some certain designs that they want to put in. To add to the building that would go with the area 38 City CouncIl Meeting - October 27, 1997 remodeling because St. Hubert's wouldn't change. What would we want architecturally to be reflected on that bUilding? Then I just included some different design ideas on the last pages like the residential, the Schlenk property. I think that'd be really, we talked about that being senior housing.. . cemetery. That would be nice. We want to maintain, we've got some nice old housing stock at that end of the city. Mayor Mancino: Senior housing proximity to the cemetery. Councilman Senn: I can tell you, I've already been through that argument once. Kate Aanenson: Well we thought it'd be nice to keep the residential character and not introduce...so it's close to downtown and it makes sense. And also just to show you some other pictures of street furniture, landscaping and how that works m a downtown area. Councilman Senn: Cemeteries and mortuaries. You don't try to put senior housing close to them. Kate Aanenson: So with that I guess I'd like to turn it back to the Planning Commission unless you want something else further studied or if you had some other concerns that you would like.. .relayed back to the Planning Commission for them to study or if you wanted to expand the scope of the district, or something like that. CounCilman Senn: So what are you looking for us to do? I mean give. Kate Aanenson: One, if you wanted anything additional studied, your direction to the Planmng Commission. If you feel like the size of the district is adequate or if you wanted that expanded... And then If you were in concurrence that it should go back to the Planning Commission to go through the process there. I guess that's what I'm looking for. .. . before we start the process... Councilman Senn: So let me just clarify. This is the outhne for the process to go through? Kate Aanenson: Right. Councilman Senn: Right. So the intention of this plan was not to try to reach closure or recommendation on anythmg. It was simply to. Kate Aanenson: Yes. Yes. This is going to become a planning document but to do that you need to hold a public hearing and a draft to approve. To do that you go through the Planning Commission. Councilman Senn: Okay. I thought I was hearing two different things there. So okay. So if I'm understanding correctly then, the purpose of this document then right now is to create a plan. Kate Aanenson: Right. And what I'm saying, this is the format we're laying out. What I'm asking you for, IS this meeting what your expectations were or is there something else you wanted to study. Did you have concerns, do you want to add additional parcels. Are you concerned about that something was missed that you wanted studied. A specific uses that you were concerned about. Each property have been identified for different uses. If you have concerns with any of them. Councilman Senn: No, I understand but normally in a planning document you reach, you know some kind of closure in terms of where you're at from a recommendation standpoint and. 39 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: Oh, the recommendation's too broad for you at this point? Councilman Senn: Well I mean yeah. What's happening to me is as I read through this and read the recommendations, or I guess as I read through them I viewed them as discussion items. I didn't view them as recommendations. I viewed that they lacked any closure. You know a good example, the St. Hubert's School and Church. To simply say that housing is a potential land use that would fit the site. I mean to me we should, this is our opportunity and we told them to wait while we looked at it. We should be telling them okay. If you don't sell it you know effectively as a church again, here's how we view the site being used. I think we ought to be very specific about that. Not very broad and general about that, okay. Mayor Mancino: So I'm assuming that it's going back to the Planning Commission for a specific recommendation and then will come in front of the Council for a specific, to either yes to that specific recommendation or no. Councilman Senn: But I mean not just that. I mean I want them to go through, I mean to me I don't know. I just kind ofread through this, Colonial Center I mean, well I mean yeah. So okay, Medical Arts building's looking to expand there. Well I mean, fine. If they're looking to expand there but I mean I would look at this at this point, changing a whole different set of architectural guidelines than we used on the first one or two of those thmgs and tie that back into the architectural elements and do it but I just, I'm not getting any kind of a tie or a sense that way, Country Clean. Nothing's happened on it. Kate Aanenson: I can give you an update on that. There's some EP A problems.. . getting that resolved. What I tried to do is give a point of jumping off point for the Planning Commission to take that. They'll come back with specifics. If you want them to look at an ordinance, they may come back with an overlay dIstnct ordinance. We'll draft that. This is kind of a jumping off point to give you the background... Councilman Senn: Well I mean if they're going to recommend something to us, I'd just as soon, I suppose If they want to give us discussion items that's fine. Then let's not send It back to the Planning Commission. Let's sit down and make some decisions on uses. But I mean I'd much prefer It to go back to the Planning Commission and have the Planning Commission specifically kind of take the discussion to an end point, to a conclusion and give us a definitive recommendation on land uses, you know specific uses as it relates to each one of these things. I don't think they've done that. Now I don't know. Mayor Mancino: No, it hasn't been to the Planning Commission yet. Kate Aanenson: That's the process we're laying out. Councilman Senn: Okay. Kate Aanenson: I'm giving it to you first to say, is there something that's not in here that you want them to look at. It hasn't even gone to the Planning Commission. They haven't seen it. Councilman Senn: Why haven't we. Councilman Mason: You made the mistake in giving it to us in the first place. See I wondered when I saw this, I thought. 40 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor MancIno: I wanted to see where we were in the historic district. What had happened. To check In with us. Councilman Senn: Well I mean my sense IS we've gone. Mayor Mancino: It's my fault. I'll take it. Councilman Senn: Okay, you take it. It's been months and months and months and it seems like we're nowhere. And we promised these people that we were going to take a hard look at this stuff and establish some direction and get back to them. I mean I hope we're not looking at 6 months more you know to do that. I mean I really kind of expected to be that point by now. Mayor Mancino: Oh you wanted to see it further along is what you're obviously saYIng. Councilman Senn: Yeah, much more. Much more. Mayor Mancino: Kate, what's your timing on it at this point? I mean it's not like we have a lot of people here waiting but. Kate Aanenson: Well there are people that are interested and want to make sure they're in the process... At the next, not the November, November 17d1 Planning Commission. Mayor ManCInO: 19th? Kate Aanenson: 17th. Mayor Mancino: 17t\ is that when it is? MM: 17th is a Monday. Kate Aanenson: 19th. Mayor Mancino: 19th. I know that date. Kate Aanenson: For a discussion item. Mayor Mancino: So we probably won't get it until some time in December or January it will come back. So the next 2 or 3 months. Councilman Senn: I mean other comments because I don't want to lose. Mayor Mancino: I was going to say why don't you add some comments. Councilman Senn: I don't want to lose the opportunity. The Schlenk property you took kind of where I expected these all to go. I mean it brings it down to a conclusion and you know kind of says okay. I mean it should be townhomes. It should be two story. You know and here's the way it should be developed, etc. I mean that's kind the closure I'd like to see on each one of these. The old church, the old Village Hall. I think we need to tie that into the issue and I'm not sure that's something the Planning 41 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Commission's going to be able to deal with but I mean we need to tie that into the issue over investment and ownership and community use and all that sort of thing. I don't know. I mean I'm not sure. Mayor Mancino: But I think the Planning Commission would have some good recommendations as far as community use. I think that would be a good idea. Councilman Senn: But I mean again, I think that's the way the direction needs to go. Mayor Mancino: So a design overlay district and also community use as part of that design overlay district. Councilman Senn: So those types of things. Mayor Mancmo: I would also like to see conceptually, and it would probably be in the, what's it called, the cleaners area. Colonial Square. How the Planning Commission would look at that as retail down below and housing up above. And having specific and different architectural design standards than what, than may be different a little west of that area. And again pulling it forward. And I would also like to see the St. Hubert's. Kate, I don't know market wise with St. Hubert's. I'd like to see some residential, multi- family in there. I'm not sure that we as a city or the Carver County HRA or whatever has the ability to meet all of our, you know would have the ability to meet a housing need there. Kate Aanenson: The other thing that I pointed out too is the issue with the old, old St. Hubert's. The steeple and what development. . . Mayor Mancino: And the other thing I'd like the Planning CommiSSiOn to look at is maybe not making that entire Pauly/Pryzmus area a park but maybe part of it to add to the existing common areas and again making that office/retail that was also suggested in the 2002 plan. Kate Aanenson: That was the staffs. Mayor Mancino: Yeah, addmg to it. ./ Kate Aanenson: I'm trying to get some feedback without over... Councilman Senn: Well I think the sky's the limit. They just need to push the ideas and come forward with them, but at the same time like for example on the St. Hubert's, the old St. Hubert's site. Ifit's not resold for the institutional use, I'm hoping that in their process they'll have a real down and dirty conversation with the neighborhood around there. Kate Aanenson: Right, and that's another issue. Councilman Senn: In coming up with that. I mean I don't want it developed in a vacuum at the same time just trying to orientate effectively towards 78th or downtown. I mean I think there's a major consideration there with the residences around there and how they you know. . . Kate Aanenson: ., . cleaners and wanted to expand it. The home behind the old St. Hubert's, there was talk about whoever bought that property, what happens to the character. How that changes so that's why I was saying the scope of how you look at that because. 42 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Mayor Mancino: I think that would be a good idea. I think that's a very good pomt. Councilman Senn: But I mean again, I do want to remind you when we went through this discussion before we asked everybody for 6 months to do this. Mayor Mancino: And we're about there. We're getting there. Councilman Senn: You'd better turn on the after burners. Mayor Mancino: We've had a lot of things coming to the front burner I hate to say it. Councilman Mason, any other? Councilman Mason: Interested to see what they come up with. Mayor Mancino: Councilman Engel. Councilman Engel: I'll wait and see what they come up with. Mayor Mancino: We'll put the weIght of the world on your shoulders. So we don't need to make any formal action. Thank you for updating us and telling us where you are and where you're gomg and when we're going to see it again and some of us may even come to the Plannmg Commission meeting and listen. COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS: Mayor Mancmo: The next Item IS Council Presentations. Does anybody want to get up and make a presentatIOn? Okay. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: Todd Gerhardt: I have one on the Triax. I handed out, regarding that. Some direction or agreement on settlement of outage credit back to the residents and a list that was submitted to the City Council this past month. Mayor Mancino: I'm sorry, and what do you want us to do? Todd Gerhardt: Well there was, I think they were provIding a 75% credit, if! remember fIght. And we felt that it should be more of a 100% credit over that three month period. Councilman Senn: No. I think their, I don't know. Maybe something's happened since we last visited with them on it but when we last visited with them, the credit they were offering was a one month credit of I'm going t6 say no more than 20%. I mean I thought it was in the 10% to 20% type of range. Off of a one month bill and then we had, we took our list basically from the neighborhoods involved and figured on the three months that it was closer to 25, 50 and 25% in terms of the outages. So we were looking at 100% credit effectively over a one month period. More or less meaning that 50,25,25 out of three months. But the other thing was that they'd come back in only with a partial list of affected areas which we asked them to broaden to include the other areas and mentioned what the other areas were and they were supposed to kind of go back and do that. I don't think they've ever done that. We did get their complaint, you know list which would kind of be the verification you know of all that but I'm not sure 43 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 any of us want to take our time, I'm going to say to go through and verify all that. I mean they should be able to punch those areas out and also given the comments we gave them at that last meeting about what the additional areas were, I'm assuming they should be able to kind of come back and do that at this point, right? Todd Gerhardt: His comments on the areas is that his list stands and he said that you had brought up that there were other affected areas that you knew for a fact and his. Councilman Senn: Well they left in their first list, they left out the entire east side. I mean they had nothing from the east side at all. The only thing that they had on their initial list, if I remember right, was Lake Susan Hills. Mayor Mancmo: I can't remember. Councilman Senn: I'm trying to remember. The one out by Galpin. Todd Gerhardt: Charles' neighborhood, Lake Susan Hills, Chanhassen Hills. Councilman Senn: Chanhassen Hills. That was the other one I was trying to think of. Todd Gerhardt: Areas that were most affected. Councilman Senn: Yeah. But the areas they've identified as most affected were the ones that were predominantly affected, or at least they were telling us were affected predominantly by that, by the Powers construction. And the Village on the Ponds construction. Todd Gerhardt: Correct. The outages that occurred. Councilman Senn: But at the same time they admitted that they had the big problem on the east side whIch is where there was an equal number of outages due to that, if I can remember what his term was of that thing that they replaced that affected the entire area. And that's kind of when we said we should be including those areas too. So I mean they're not, I mean you haven't gotten anything more from them at this point? Todd Gerhardt: No. It was the 20, you know the 20, 25% credit dispute and I didn't know that we were trying to look at more of a 100%. Councilman Senn: Well we said we'd take their proposal and then we'd counter it but they were supposed to kind of, I thought give us more information to do that. Mayor Mancino: So Todd, what's their proposal right now? I'm sorry, I don't have the sheet. I'm not sure what happened to it. Their proposal is what? Todd Gerhardt: Basically, the way I understand it, he's got 25% credit for one months worth of service to those list of names that were provided at the last meeting, is the way I understand it. Mayor Mancino: Okay, at the last meeting, okay. Todd Gerhardt: Well, at the last meeting that they were here, which was in September 9th I think. 44 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: Can we spend 15 minutes on this at the next work session and just bring those, bring that stuff m so we have it in front of us. The only other thing I think the Council should be aware of, because I've heard from several people IS that the Triax's effort toward customer relations or services seems to be gomg kind of even worse rather than better. Mayor Mancino: In what way? CouncIlman Senn: A number of people have now received disconnect notices. In fact three disconnect notices, even though they've written letters to Triax, you know effectively complaining about this service outages and asking for adjustments. Mayor Mancino: So does that mean that they haven't paid their bill so that Triax has disconnected. CouncIlman Senn: Haven't paid their bills or portions of their bills and they've written letters, you know askmg for adjustments and that sort of thing and they haven't heard any responses to the letters. They haven't heard any responses from customer service representatives. All they've received is disconnect notices. Mayor Mancino: You've gotten about three phone calls on that? Because I haven't gotten any more, actually Todd's probably gotten them. I haven't gotten any more phone calls about people having bad serVIce. Councilman Senn: No, no. And don't take me wrong. Mayor Mancino: So you haven't gotten any of those? Councilman Senn: No calls as it relates to outages. Those problems seem to finally be taken care of. But I'm just saymg they were supposed to follow up. Mayor Mancino: It seems lIke they're not. Todd Gerhardt: I haven't received any of the disconnect notices or not. No response to, I didn't get a letter but I get the 1-800 number is a continued complaint that it's difficult to get through. Mayor Mancino: Still difficult to get through. CouncIlman Senn: Are you still getting that? Todd Gerhardt: Oh yeah. And fuzzy picture is the biggest problem. Longview and Cheyenne are the two primary areas. Mayor Mancino: Now Todd do you think that we'll continue getting fuzzy pictures just because of the technology? The old technology and when we do get into the fiber optics we won't? Todd Gerhardt: Well I think fiber is going to be probably a big factor in... Mayor Mancino: Mark, why don't you have the three disconnects call Todd and then tell him who they are so he can deal directly with Triax... 45 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Don Ashworth: I did pass out a copy of the budget article that we're anticipating putting in this edition of the newsletter. Karen's going to take that over to the printer probably Wednesday so if you get a chance to take a look at that one. Mayor Mancino: Article going into next newsletter. Got it. Councilman Senn: Could I propose some changes? Mayor Mancino: You certainly can. Would you like to do that after this meeting? Thank you. Councilman Senn: Well no, but I mean what's your preference? I mean do you want each one of us to just give them to you individually and then you're to have to get it all back together or do you want to kind of get. Mayor Mancino: I haven't read it. Don Ashworth: So I guess I would prefer hearing. Councilman Senn: To each concurrence on it or not. Don Ashworth: Right. Mayor Mancino: You'd like us to do it right now? Okay. CouncIlman Senn: I know you want to get home Mayor, but you know 15 more minutes. Mayor Mancino: It's past my bedtime. Don Ashworth: I don't think we need to reach concurrence on the wording. Councilman Senn: That clock's wrong. It's really only quarter to 10:00. Don Ashworth: My guess is Councilman Senn has, there's like sections that he doesn't want in there and so. Mayor Mancino: So when did you have time to do this Councilman Senn? That's what I want to know. I know when you did. Never mind, go ahead. Councilman Senn: First paragraph. Second to the last sentence, or after the second to the last sentence. I'd really love it if we could put some plain and simple language in there that says, this is every citizens opportunity to ask questions and voice opinions over all city budget matters, including levels of expenditures, specific expenditures, programs and services being provided or not being provided, levels of taxation, etc. Mayor Mancino: Well any questions that they have. Councilman Senn: Their one time to affect the city budget process and we never say that. 46 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Don Ashworth: That sounds good. Councilman Senn: And we never, we always talk about Truth and Taxation hearings and they don't even understand what it means. In the last paragraph. Mayor Mancmo: Actually that should be in the headline where it says annual Truth and Taxation heanng set for December 2nd. This is a little subparagraph. This is your time to comment. Councilman Senn: I'll give this to Don and as long as everybody's saying okay with the concept. Is that okay? Councilman Mason: That's cool. Councilman Senn: Then in the last paragraph, the sentence kind of in the middle of the paragraph. It says mitial estimates reveal that the City levy for operations debt should not produce a tax increase, okay. I've got, I mean I'm having a problem with that because we haven't adopted a levy limit, okay and this infers that we have. So if you want to see initial estimate for. .. that the staff s recommended levy for operation debts would not produce a tax increase, I don't have a problem with that. Okay. Added to that however, the statement in general I have a little bit of a problem with because it's really wipmg out. I mean your statement's true. The problem is it's wiping out part of the savings that they're already going to get because of the legislature's action on the omnibus tax bill. Correct? I mean there were two levels to that. One was immediately affected. The other is the rebate they apply for through their tax return. But I mean there was a general lowering of taxes right up front as related to the omnibus tax bill. Now that savings Isn't accounted for in here, yet we're, it's kind of like a misstatement saying we're not raIsmg their taxes, and it's true we're not raising their taxes on this basis but they also aren't getting the reductIOn that's already been passed. So it's kind oflike a mistruth. I think that needs to be said a different way. Don Ashworth: Well and they brought out at the School District. This past year saw more changes in the tax law... best guesstimates. You know maybe what I should do is Just take the thing out of there entirely. Because if the thing comes out and there's the 5% increase because the city operations and 3% because of the park referendum, they could be standing out there saying, you said m this newsletter that it would be 0 and mine is up 8%. And there are so many complicated changes. Mayor Mancino: I would much rather wait. Councilman Senn: Don, I mean I really agree with you. I mean it seems the more I read into the last paragraph here, the most questions it raised rather than problems it solved. Don Ashworth: Get Mark's notes, we're done. Councilman Mason: That sounds good. Mayor Mancino: We have one other, last thing to go through. ADMINISTRATIVE SECION DISCUSSION. Mayor Mancino: No, Ijust have two things because of their scheduling conflicts but I do want to bring up. If you look under November, 1997 meeting schedule. 47 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: November what, I'm sorry? Mayor Mancino: Meeting schedule because I think one of them affects you. Councilman Senn: Oh way back in the back calendar? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Councilman Senn: Okay. Mayor Mancino: On November 20th. This is for Todd Gerhardt. On November 20th. Councilman Senn: Hey Todd, you promised me you'd never do it again. Mayor Mancino: And I'm not sure, I'm asking this. Yes. There is an EDA meeting and there is a Southwest Metro Transit Commission meeting. Is there a way that we can avoid that conflict right now? Todd Gerhardt: I didn't do it, Karen did it. Mayor Mancino: And do we want to do that? Can we put the EDA meetmg? Councilman Senn: Guess what? Mayor Mancino: What? Councilman Senn: Todd you didn't know it but you're okay. They moved the 20th meeting to the 27th. Councilman Mason: No they didn't. Mayor Mancino: No they didn't. That's Thanksgiving. Councilman Mason: They moved it to the 2ih for a reason... Councilman Senn: Is that Thanksgiving? Councilman Mason: That would be Thanksgiving. Councilman Senn: Now you've forced me to put my glasses on... Okay, so it's got to be the 20th. I don't know why it's written down for the 27th. You got me. I'll tell you what, would you mind checking with them in the morning so I don't have a conflict. Mayor Mancino: I'm almost positive you have one because it was actually a commission meeting I was going to go to and who told me it was on the 20th. I want to say maybe it was Sharmin. I've never been to a Southwest Metro. Councilman Senn: Oh well, you don't know what you're missing. Mayor Mancino: So anyway, somebody offer a suggestion to this conflict. Can we do it on? 48 City Counc11 Meetmg - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: Especially since we're doing strategic planning right now. You'll really love it. Mayor Mancino: EDA on the 18th? On the 18th? Councilman Mason: I can't do Tuesdays. Mayor Mancino: Do we need to have a EDA meeting on the 20th? I mean do we need to have one in November? Roger Knutson: Yes. Todd Gerhardt: Yeah we do. Dean Johnson. Councilman Senn: Well how long an item is it? I mean is it something we could tack on before the Council meeting and do 1t? Roger Knutson: What I have to bring to you shouldn't, what I have to say will take 2 minutes. Councilman Senn: Do you have any other items? Todd Gerhardt: Budget and that's 2 minutes. Councilman Senn: Why don't we do it before the council meetmg on the 1 ih? Mayor Mancino: That's a work session. That's fine. EDA. Todd Gerhardt: On the 14th? Councilman Mason: 17th. Todd Gerhardt: I've just got to verify with Gary Boyle and Jim. Gary is out of town a lot. Mayor Mancino: You guys, what if we start at 5:00 that night. The 17th. Would that work? Counctlman Senn: Works okay by me. Councilman Mason: But I'm assuming this 10:00 p.m. ending time is a misprint? Mayor Mancino: Yes. Also, just. Councilman Mason: What is it normally? Mayor Mancino: 9:00. Councilman Mason: Okay, thank you. I'm going to write that in right now. 9:00. Mayor Mancino: And you guys, the Environmental Commission meeting is not on the 13th but on the 12th, 1f anybody wanted to make that. 49 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 Councilman Senn: Which one? Mayor Mancillo: The Environmental Commission meeting is not on the 13th but they're on the lth. They're on Wednesdays. Okay, I have one other. Councilman Mason: EDA is 1 ih. If that works out with Gary and Jim. If It doesn't, I think we need to revisit it. Councilman Senn: Okay, can you jump, while you're on scheduling things still, or before you leave that. Can you jump to the page before which is our work session schedule? Going to December. Are we going to, we're going to have a work session on the first. Mayor Mancino: Of December. Councilman Senn: First of December. And okay, and then another one on the 15th. Okay, and before that we have, okay or right after that. See we have a meeting on the first. Work session. We have Truth in Taxation on the 2nd. And then we've got the conference. Mayor Mancino: And then we have continuation of Truth and Taxation. Councilman Senn: Then we're back in town from the conference and we're right into, oh that's a regular meeting then on the 8th, right? Don Ashworth: Right. Councilman Senn: Boy. That's going to be wonderful. Councilman Mason: Maybe that one on the first should be canceled. Councilman Senn: Well is there anything we have to meet on the first for? Don Ashworth: That's a Monday? Councilman Senn: Yeah. Mayor Mancino: It's a work session. Don Ashworth: And those were items that you picked out. Those have been moved a number of times. They could easily be moved. Councilman Senn: I mean there's nothing we're going to have to do budget wise or whatever that we have to act on at that point? Don Ashworth: No. Mayor Mancino: Well and the sign age is already up on November 3rd because we have to for the 120 days. Affordable housing, we kind of talked about a Livable Communities. Yeah, we can move those two. 50 City Council Meeting - October 27, 1997 CouncIlman Senn: So could we cancel the 1 st? Councilman Mason: That would be good. Councilman Senn: Well we're going to be meeting every day after that till the 8th. Mayor Mancino: I'm not fighting that one. Councilman Senn: There is light outside of City Council I think. Mayor Mancino: Okay. I have one other question under Admin. Page 16 of income statement. Mr. Ashworth. I Just have a real quickie question for you. As I was looking over Historic Preservation Trust Revenue, our budget for 1997 is $518,000.00 and we've pulled in $46,000.00. How come there's such a variance, a 91 % variance? Does that mean that we just always get it at the end of the year or something? Don Ashworth: I'm not sure. Mayor Mancino: Anyway, if you could check on that and the next page too, under Fire Fighters Rehef Revenue there's a 75% variance as far as getting in revenue. Don Ashworth: Okay. Mayor ManCInO: Those are my only two questions, if you could check on. Anybody else have any questions In the Admin Section? Councilman Senn: Oh, the relief revenue though I thought we talked about that the other night. I thought that was just a product of when the payments came in from the levy. From the taxes. Mayor Mancino: I don't know. Don Ashworth: Well the City, the city portIOn would be a function of the property tax collection. The State aid thing is whenever that's disbursed, which my recollection was that was summer. You know June-July. Somewhere in there. Those monies should have already been in. But I'll check on them. Mayor ManCInO: Thank you. Any other questions in the Admin Section? Okay. This meeting is adjourned. Mayor Mancino adjourned the meeting at 9:55 p.m. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 51