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1993 12 13r ~-SSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEEIING DECEMBER 13, 1993 APPROVAL OF A(~ENDA; Maycr~: l~~whoi~mslly~~gonmytngfcrli~lmdg~ We're looking at a budset at a zero right nt this pargcnlnr time. We hnve misfmd our $600,000.00 de~it mid whnt I'm ~ thnt we will also do is to posm'bly wind up with a 2~L redncti~ frum the city smidpo~ But we'n find ,h,, out la~ as we tn~votcslateron. But it is flght now at a 0~. Sowiththm-iflcanhaveamotimf~~ofthengenda budget, to item nmber 9. All voted tn favor and the molJom curried. P~ATIQN OF MAPLE I~EAF AWAI~tD[[ TQ LARRY ~OEBS. PARK AND RECREA~ (~QMMI,~qlON AND BRIAN BATZLI, {~-IAIBMAN, PLANNIN(~ COMMISSION. normal m~gs, which were nummuus. Lm~'s willingness to vuhmteer on these occaskms is exemplary. As Monday _Dece__m~ 13, 1~3 LinTy will be presented with this Maple Leaf award, which is this evening and o~ wasn't going to show. Brian has ably sm'red on the _1~_ in~ C~ since January of 1988. M~mt recently Brian's hoJding of the position it itKfiCafiVe of ~igh rogm'd tn ~ flld~ bom h~m-Dul'blg his 6 yem*. temff~ ho draftins of the Core--ye l~nn; and more te,:emly contn'bmed to the Surface Water Mamsement Plan. He City of Chanhas~n m~le leaf award lwesented to Brian Batzli, Planning Cmnmission 1988 thrn 1993 in Chanhassen City Council - Deccm~ 13, 1993 CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendm'f seconded to approve the following consent agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: b. ,Resolution ~P)3-117; Authorize Revision to Sapimry Sewer and Water I-Ioolmp Cluu'ses, File No. PW-011. c. Resolution ~P)3-11~I; Accept Street Improvements in Lake Susan Hills West 7th Addition, Project 91-9. d. Resolption #93-119: Accept Street Improvements in Lake Susan ITtlls West 8th Addition, Project 91-16. e. Resolution ~3-1~; Accept Sanitary Sewer and Water Improvements in Windmill Run, Project 93-3. f. RerSOlption ~J93-121; Accept Sanitary Sewer and Water Impmvenmits in Oak Ponds, Proj~ 93-9. h. Consider Extension of time to complete utility improvements in Chan Haven Plaza 4th Addition, Project 92- 16. i. Re~olption #93-122: Accept Sanitsry Sewer and Water Improvements in Deer Ridge, Project 92-18. 1. Accept donation from the Chanhass~ Lion's Club for a New McC. m~ Costume. m. Approval of Accounts. n. City Council Minutes dated November 22, 1993 Planning Commission Minutes dated November 17, 1993 Park and Recreation Commission Minutes dat~l November 16, 1993 p. Establish 1994 City Council Meeting Schedule r. Set Refunding Bond Sale, 6 Candidate Issues, Fetruary 7, 1993. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ,VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. PUBLIC HEARING: REQ TQ TRANSFER ON- ALE INTQXIi;ATIN(; ,IOUOR LICENSE, PAULY'S BAR, INC., FROM 401 WEST ?~ITH STREET (CURRENT LO(~ATION), TQ 410 WE,,qT ?~ITH STREET (FORMERLY KENNY'S BUILDING), RI, I$$ELL PAULY. Public Present: Name Address Pete & Nancy Ronhoude Tim Bloudek Dave Rome Judy Schmics James E. Sloss Chnnhn~jen Nme Helen ~~ ~ Mac Ernst Wminm R. ? pnnln Rne ~~ S~ & ~y B~ ~~y ~W~ J~ B~ ~ ~in~ Bob ~ ~0~ ~P.~~ ~ ~c Bm & Vi~ ~ C~mlm~sen Clmnlmme~ Chanhassm C~mbassen 1031 Carver ~ ~ 7601 Great plntn- Blvd. 7131 Utica ~ 425' C t.m View 425 Ctmn View 15~1 Lymph Blvd. 7608 Kiowa Avenue 514 Del Rio Dri~ 8600 Ormt Plains Blvd. 804:2 Cbeyenn~ Avenn~ 425 Chnn Vie~v 406 Sanm Fe Cimle 1191 l-lmnesm~ Iane 731 West 96th Street 91700rmt Plnins Blvd. ~ & Tall~ ~ lnc, 470 West 78th ~tmet 425 Chnn Vtmv, #108 425 Chnn View., #121 425 Clmn View, ~14 St. Hnbert's Sc Hnbem, 1601 Lymnn Blvd. 1120 Hesse Farm RoM stan wllh a r~lUeSt to be nble to transfer his liqnm' ~ f:mm it's currant ~ nt 401 West 78th Street across the street to former Kenny's buildins. In pmlming Knmn's repmt, sbe tu~d stdmtitmd to Mr. Pnnly n questionnaire that would compare ~he ~ bnsiness to the new bminess. I don't think I need to n~mt ~ Chanhassen City Council - Dec___~ml. bet 13. 1993 contents of that survey. It was A~iq to provide Council members with a little addilienal infommtton as to how that building might be used. He also requested a potential site plan and again with the hyout for bow they might lay out the Kenny's building. Mr. Pauly did asain submit ti~ and City Council members have ~ Again it would be based cma very initial look by himself and he has ~ that he not be beJd to that exactly. I've ~ a report that kind of provides an overvi~ of the ~ of how the city ended up purchasing that property. What ~at_ transaction was and the requirement tl~ Mt. Pauly vaca~ the existing building by July of 1994. We also asked for a review by out building depattmenL Asain I won't get trim ~ delaiis of tha~ but it involves the necessity to 81~nkle the bi~b:[ing Ired other type of ~ seql~mellts. ~ may wi~t to ~ on the parking requirements associated with your tepe~ I'll end with really ~e position that l~e immnce of a Council There is no requirement to do it. Again it comes back to the applicant demoastrating to ~be cily that this would be a good loca~n for the m-sale l~cense. With that, Paul did you want to a~ sn~g regarding pad~S? Paul Kranss: Possibly very briefly. When we started mttring to Rrm last winter I guess ii was ca this, and since pafldn8 is one of the primary ceacerns we would have in planning, we asked Fred ~ who is most ~ assumptions about Pauly's operation. It's also based on croas utili,a_rln~ of plrking spaces. The city in parkins for this type of usc with this type of cross parkins atransement-is somewhat more of an art than a science. But all we have to 8o on riBht now is Nred's assumption that it should work if everythinB comes out as he lxedicte~. Don Ashworth: If I may add. Should the Council a~t to ~ the transfer, slaff would like to work with the applicant in terms of insuring th~ maintenan~ does not become a problem, because had bee~ a l~roblem previously. And secondly, work with the applicant as it would deal with signage for that buiklhg. Mayor Chmieh Okay, thank you. Russ, is there something flint you would like to say at this time? Russ Pauly: Well I guess about the only thing. Mayor Chmiel: Would you like to come up to the mic and just state your name and yom' address please. Russ Pauly: I'm Russ Pauly. I live at 1031 Carver Beach Road in Chanhas~ I'm currently the President of Pauly's IncorporatecL I guess the only thing I'd like to add is, you know we've been in business in this town as a family since 1934. We've had a lXetty good track record. I think we've contributed quite a bit to ~t_, community over the years and we would like to my here in business and I'm willtr~g to do you know anything reason of economics more than anything and that's why we aPlXOached that loc~titm. I gtums that's about all I have to adcL Thanks. Any questions? Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Does the Council have any questions7 Not at this time. As I mentimed befe~e, this is a public hearing. Is there anyone st this time wishing to address this proposal? And if so, if you would come to the microphone and please staie your name and your address. I'll open tiffs up for public input si tiffs panic~_l~ time. mad ~ for you. We. thc residents livins in the ~ Psd~ Apgunmm do not feel that anowhs a lklucr onlyabout the late nlsht use. Tlicnoise. Distm'blm~tnlbelmtdngareaon,'lthemfc~o~allthe~m,~_ com~rn. Panly's is a bikam har and we would just be kind of cmcemed aboot llmt. Howover, th~t'Ialllimvo KrisKoch: Goodevmin8. My name is Kris K0ch md I'm a residmt of (3imhafse~ Myinmhmifmdlowna borne at 7609 Grmt~ Blvd, find we come here tmiBht becamm we do not want you to vote to hve PRnly's trans~ it's license from ~'s ~t ~ m ~ ~ ~ ~y'L '['newe's a _eyre_her_ Of reasmis why w~ feel this Pauly's at thft_ time wecan, til~obviouslyhvo]iv~bslids. 'l'o~'v~ah'esdyflnnoonced~ Wecaahear the Iris. I inviu~ you all to come and listm to the bands. Durinsti~mmmierit'sBettingevenwomandsmnmimes l'lllaytnbcdatni~htandFllsf~g~,dolrecogn~thatMng? I dm't know about you. I dm't So to bed to equals abadncighbor. Anothcr wsy in which th~'l~ a bad naishbor is ail the lin= that tb~ lxodnc=. Inth= pinking lot that th=¥ u~ which tb~ par~ lot that I s~ Pmly's usinfl are I~ pmJdng lo~ Ixahi~ Panly's to haveforyo~picmr=s~I'n~ ~=e~s~ow~,~istntt~psatns~o~. lnaddifim, I cleaning place o~ the cemetery er the church. Russ Pauly:. We don't sell cans at Pmtly'L 'I'ncre's intoxicated people who maybe lmve poor judsment or impaired judsmem. I certainly wouldn't wm~ Addifiomlly, aneiihlx~ood~. Paaly'sisreallymlan~i~ocd~xlbar. Iwould~m~~~~ a nice ~ablMm2nt he~ in ggs crud ct' towa but it is m~ a ~ lin' fro' our 9=lit~ood. Idida my survey which I made ~ for cvu'ym~ Th~ msul~ of my surv~ show g~ o~ af g~ 48 people g~ai I spoke~only~~~ Thereat _comin~frommm~arms. So Panly's is not really a Chanhassen City Council - I~h~nb~r 13, neighborhood bar. In addition, those people I also asked whether or not they drove to Pauly's or if ~ walked and out of 48 responses, they all said that lhey drove to Pauiy's. There's not one pea'son that walked to Pauly's thai night. By not granting Mr. Pauly a liquor license you will not hinder his business. People will drive a few m~ blocks to the west in order to go ~o his bar if they truly are inter~ ~ven if they're already coming in from some dislance anyway. I ~xesent the people, and it's not just my husband and I but I represent g~ people on this petition saying, not in our neighboflmod. We don't want Pauiy's bar in our ne//hbc~ood. The noise. Thc trash. Keep it away from our children. Pauiy's is not a neighborhood bar so please not in our neighborhood. Thank you for your consideration. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Here's your pictures here and if you'd also take. Kris Koch: You'd like me to take my trash? Dick Mingo: My name is Dick bfingo. I live at 7601 Great Plains Blvd, which is Just a couple doors away. I've lived there for 40 years. I do not believe, I guess I have a little loss of hearing but I do n6t believe that I have ever been botlm~ by the music from Pauly's bar. I don't even remember henfln/it. You must have awful good hearing to pick up that sound through the watts and all the way up into our liUle n~ghborboed, There's certain..J~ve you checked Tnt~L Have you gone to see how num_y of those people walk to Tm'get. How many of those people live in Chanlu~sen. The IPubage that was here. Pauiy's is not an off sale store. The big 24 pack. They don't sell those. They don't sell the cans. You could pi~ that up anywhere. And a lot of that may have been h'ought in. Just a liule historical background. The Pauly family arrived in Chanhassen long before virumlly anyone in the room. They moved into Chanlm~en in the 1850's. They contributed a great deal to the growth of this town and Mayor, I'm going to tell you that the very first Mayor of Chanlutssen was Gerhardt Schroeder who happens to be Russ Pauly's Great Grandfather on the maternal side. Lived just down the street here and just adjacent to what would now be ~ RiverLa. The Pauiy family contributed the land for the first Catholic Church in this town, I might add. They helped to build tin-ce Catholic church because the first Catholic church was nothing but a little log cabin over in that area and they contributed to the development of. the old Catholic church which still remains and then of course the newest one. It is the only bat I might add in the State of Minnesota that is still in the same family that started at the end of prohibition. As Russ stated, I think they've had a lWetty good track recorcL This is not seine fly by night outfit that is coming tn here out of east St. Louis or the south side of Chicago wanting to come in with a strip joint or some topless dancery. I think they've been a good family agency and again, none of you would remember this but Emil Pauly used to be more or less the town banker. Even though there was bank next door, a lot of the local people used to cane in and borrow money from Emil and unfommately a lot of it he never got back but he never complnlnecL That was the way Emil was. He was quite a guy. He by the way was a City Council member. Member of the church here and I guess when I hear something started, like I've just heard reminds me of a couple years ago when I came to some of your Council meetings when the people were coming up here and we had a few people coming up here and I remember were actually crying about Eckankat coming to town. It was going to mtn the town. It will never be the same. It will ruin my children and I hear all these do gooders do tht~ and that little old church out there hasn't hurt one fly I believe in this town. Probably one of the nicest looking buildings in the entire community I might add. And so when I hear a lot of this, I just say here we go again. It's the Salem, Massachusetts witch hunt starting all over. And I just want to say that I think you're mnlrln..o a big mistake ff you do not grant this. You're only moving what, 30 yards am~ss the street and I don't think Pauiy's has bothered a soul in this town to speak of since 1934. $o I hope you will see fit to help them as much as you can. This is an original, local business and I think it's about time you try to help those people out as much as possible instead of trying to drive the older businesses out of town. Thank you. Christine--s. Mynmneis~Kmmar. Iliveat8693StnleyTrailJnBdmPnifie. l'mPtuidmt of St. Hubert's Parish Council I com~ h~ amight 1~ntninf over 1,100 bm'lin who oplxac Panl~'s n~w liqtux license ftpp~ to it's new iocntion, the fonnn' Kmny's t~_ fl~.o. We ~ three main ruasons far our Xt will be ~y within sc"veral yards of our yonng_ childrelL We al~ ~ of mMilional vehic~ traf~. estnblhhment ~ ~y's ~ ~y ~ 'Fac um~ of tb~ buiJdin8 is not a 9.'(X) to 3:00 typ~ d~ at schooibutabuildingthntisnsedwithmnchresp_lneity. 7dnysawedc Nlshtnndday. 12 nmnlhs of the ymr. children. Youns~ Wesupp(mtheci~'sintm~overlbelmt ISymrsofmlnstnti~~~~ DARE and other ~ ~ We fuk yon to draw your ~ f~r these very Irogn?t you're purlins ~ hismflcal ~squnre. Notconducivetonnmmuinmmtesmblisbmenc Weshar~nvision~~~ lxmofChnnhanen would be better suited fer civic ~ Librm% _commnnitycent~r. Nnmber3. SC Hub6rt's goals. SL Hllbeft's it proselltly ilivolv~d in fi ~nrmin~o procesL This procefs involves boih SIK~ ~ and long term sonls. 'l'ne relocating of Pm]ly's to the former Kenny's ~ may not be cmnlmtible with St. Hubert's long term facility gonlL We ~ Panly's as nn entertninmmt estnblistnnent find enconrn~ Pmly's shouldnot, cannotbe~ Ithank~f~~~ Oood~ Mayor Chmiel: Tlum__ k you. Is there nnyme else7 Pauly's bar has never distmbed us. Tm~ going on rosin su~et k ~ ss noisy m th~ People from Pnly's. Or from Kcnny's ~ ~y's wns open fn~ I see no need why w~ should deny them thedr liquor ~ MaryHeiges: Goodevenin8. I'mnotamsidmtofChmbazse~ IamMaryl-kiges. I'm Direcur of the Carver ~ty Lihm7 System. I'm here to not rmny speak ~ ~ ~ h ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ license ~ I don't feel it's our ri~t to do so since we're not a rmidmt of the County. Of the city. Chanhassen City Council - December 13, l~J3 experience of other public libraries this close to a bar are as follows. Litter, which has ~y been mentioned. who are intoxicauxi have drive their cars over the shrubbery. There have been crees where some of those intoxicated drove into the library. Avoiding arrest by the way but rehashed through the ~ slnss windows of a library. Some people, nmi I don't think this happens probably out here very often, ff ever, but sometimes since the library's open 6 days a week and at night, ff they are asked to leave the bar because they are intoxicated, they will and do wander over to what's open and it's often the Hbrary. So then they come into the Hbrary and this can be any time of the day. Whether it's evening or dming the day. Or even momins for that matter. I can't really _tslk about the noise because libraries are very noisy themsel~. And are Setting noisier because of the make-up of our own client. So I just wanted to hrins those couple of case studies you might say to your n__n_~tion as you decide whether to transfer the license or not. We look forward to having a new Hlnry in Chanhassen in the next few years and if it's ou the Pauly's site, that's well and sood. We hope that our Gordy Nagel: Hi. My name's Gordy Nagel. I'm here r~ Colonial Church at Heritage Square. I have nothing personally against Pauly's. As far as a liquor store, I think they mn a fairly decent organiza~n. However, some of you may recognize me. I've been on the 2002 plannins commission and it appears that the city is leaning towards that center of town as being a historic area. There's two churches there. There's a school there. The possibility of a library there. I don't see Pauly's fitting into that equation very well. Again, I'm not going to rip Pattly's but I'm part of the building and maintenance at the church and I can bring many bags of I/arbage. That's typical of a liquor store. It's nothing personal against Panly's. But that's the environment that you invite when you U'ansfer Pattly's to across the street. We're not soins to I~t rid of that environment if the liquor license is continued. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? Bill Goers: Hi. My name is Bill Goers. I live at 1601 Lyman Blvd. I was last year's Pregdont of the St. Hubert's School Commitiee and I'm spe_.nking on behalf of the school. The School Committee is really the governing body for the school at St. Hubert's and we try to take into account the environment and other social and learning aspects of the school. I have three children who are currently attending them. I've also been a resident of Chanhassen for 14 years and been very active in the commtmity with the youth. I'm currently the Cub Master for all the Chanhassen area Cub Scouts. My wife has a similar responsibility with the Girl Scouts and we've been involved as participants and coaches with the CAA. Mr. Mayor and members of the Council I understand that there is a pwposal to offer Pauly's a new liquor license and allow them to relocate across the street and I would like to express some concern that I have about that proposal. I very much appreciate your time and the opportunity to express these concerns, both as a resident and as the President of this Student School Committee. I would also like to say that I am not oppos~ to having Pauly's there. I've also gone there myself sometimes. My main concern is about the location and specifically about the suitability of that location considering the surrounding area. As the President of the S~ool Committee, I'd like to re-echo the comments earlier that the school is very active. Thea~ are over 1200 families and it is families even outside of that group that often So ~ It's very frequent we'll be picking up our own kids at 9:.00 or 10:00 p.m. and that's weeiends. Almost 7 days of the week. The evening activities involving school plays, yomh choir Inctice, Cub Scout meetings, Boy Scout meetings, all involve our children and because of the space, we often involve the Chanhsisen area Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and other non-church activities there. Also there's many adult and family type of activities. Weddings, adult social events, parish council, choir practice. Typical space usase on a 7 day a week, 7:00 a.m. to 10:00 p~n. basis...so there's almost always something going on there and again this is not just.but others as well. For this level of activity I really don't feel the idea of movin/an establishment City O)mcil - Dec~l:~' 13. 1993 the church. Di~ctims wxNl be to have them ~ ~ t ~ ~ m ~ ~ ~ ~ k ~ to be St. Hnbm's ~ lots. 'l'nere's also thc noise level ~ ~ m~ ~ ~ ~ ~ it's Boin~ to Imve ~ summndins ~ts and th~ church. Also th~ lilm', it's a fn~ o~ ltf~ sad som~ n~as i~ um~ tMmdudv~ to sends to our students to have them ~ fa~e to face, da~ to day with a bar, 1~ lot and pamms throush a DARH ~ ~ we talk to them abtmt tho cmu~flm end alxmca of eicdlol end ~ We loll also ~g ~nx ~ to odnc~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ a~ alcohol te roeny cce~icttng daughter was hit by a bus ~i~_ past year whl~ riding to school INmumeiy it was fairly dight dama~ to hez. patrons a~ coming Ihereaflm, wodt. L~r. We'r~goinstobavemmvtrmlmmtthatJt'tlmruisan~ which ~ it's soins to raise qumions thr X don't ~tM~ic anyme needs to msw~r. As a puu~ as a C~ ~ oven as an ostab~ owns, havins a ~ ~ h~ by ~ who's hvin8 a her is nn awful lot ~t of an oxphna1~m thn somoo~ who 8ets hit by a schx~ bus comin_~ to sohooL A_mdn. it's not that that can't work tostth~ but It just raises a risk and raisos a lot of concern. Also as a rosi6~ X havom ~ involved real heavily in the planning process but I am aware that St. Hubem Iv~ been them for a im~ time too. Wchaveaccmctcryatttmtend. Some nice homes. Thevisi~2002isclmdy~abo~adhectkmforthat aloha to~cther. As a _c~nmunity member, I'm a Boy Scout ~ and a psm~ I'v~ also frequently we defc~ our activities to St. Hubem gym ~ ~ th~ old ;own hall And %?tn w~'r~ two ~t ti_flmtlons on a vtl-y ~ [Nlsts. Nor most of tho~ rmsmu I don't ft~l dutt ~nming ~ a new conclusion, as a representative of St. I-Iube~ and as a _c~mmlmt~y mmdx~, I would ask you ~ mlutst thnt you Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Bill. Is tham anyone else? C ~hanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 Mary Ann Nozi,l~: My name is Mary Ann Noziska. Iliveat ll20HesseFm'mRond. Imuhe~asa represenu~ive of the w, sching s~f at St. Huberts school and pretty much I would just like to echo wha~ has been said prior to this. In particular the chan~e in the traffic patting. ~tly most people coming into Panly's coming, whether they're coming from the south, east or the west are going to be coming up from TH 5 and enming in that way. The overflow parking, over closest to the school and the church but .most of the people will be coming in entering that way. With the new location I fear that people are goin~ to have to come in down West 78th Street and then down Great Plains Blvd as it intersects fight by St. Huberts church and school. And in light of the school activities and the during school activities at the school and in and around the building, we do have a major concern having to do with uaffic patterns. The only other thin~ I had to add, that it is recognized that an entertainment facility such as a bar and a res*-,want is an important part of the commtmity. However, close proxinu'ty to an educational facility such as SL Huberts does not seem approl~iate or logical. And as a result, we appreciate your undermnding and consideration of our point of view. And I also have a letter for the Council dealing with that, Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyene else? Jim Gunville: Oood evening. My name is Jim Ounville. I live at 7608 Kiowa Avenue. I'm a resident and active member of the Chanhassen community. I'm a neighbor of the downtown district. We've been 1 1/2 blocks from thc downtown area for the past 17 years. I'm a parishioner of the St. Hubem community and a member of thc Pastoral Council. I'm n~king that you deny the request for this new liquor license. I've been acutely aware of the transf~ of the downtown nrea that has been going on in the phn, both commercial and historical areas. I'd like you to get a picture in your mind please, if this does go through, what will really be surrounding that area. On the south side would be potentially a ~ center, which is there tight now and the library. On the east side a chinch nnd a school. On the west side of professional business com~ and on the north side a series of high density apartments. Is this a reasonable way to locate a liqucr and entertainment complex adjacent to and in the middle of this kind of area? I don't believe so. To really have perspective in the planning issues for greater Chanhnssen. Several years ago, I think it was nbout 4 years ago ff my memory serves me fight, the greater community outcry, and I will say outraged, for the placement of the community center near Filly's. That issue was a good idea but the wrong environment. This is the same issue, This location is the wrong one. I agree with some of the comments that Fred Hoisington had said about the placement of Pauly's in the Colonial Center location will detract from the potentially positive and capability of the area. This is a 2002 issue. An interesting impact on the use of the Colmial Center for us as neighbors. If this grant rakes place, the commtmity center parking lot will now becomes the pfimnry lot for the bar patrons. The existing primary lot on the south side of Pauly's is entirely suited for the downtown area. This will be transferred entirely into the open area fight in the middle of this complex that I've described here a moment ago. We need to prevent the encroachment of liquor establishments into both the historical areas of Chanlmssen and the residential areas of Chanhassen. I suggest that nllowing Panly's to select and relocate to a more feasib~ entertainment portion of Chanhassen might be in your best interest nmi the best interest of Chanhassen. And ns a result of that I ask that you deny the request for this new license. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Jim. Is there anyone else? As I mentioned, this is a public hearing. If there's anyone else wishing to come forward, If seeing none, I'd like to have a motion to close the public hearing. Councilman Wing moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to dose the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public heaflnlg was closed. 10 City Councff - Decembea' 13, 19~ known Russ for a ntm~lx~ of yems and Fv~ t~a b~en in his ~mt, as ~y a lot of oth~ Pm[~ have. l'm going to take a position on this and I'm going to ~ Panly's nmf~ of his Hquo~ ltom~ ~ m nt ~iz localJon. I thilzlc that buainoasos withixl & _ctvnmnnlty, IRian blll~Oe~ or' a largo Ix~ Ig8 Idl that would b~ ~ within a _c~nmunll~. If w~ gO in that porticular direction, ! would allo iiim Io hav~ om' would li~ us to lXOtnbly co~ up with a ~ lm~ agrmm~ thru what'a cclsting P[mmiY. And I ~'t all a lot of thtng~ ttmt can ~ don~. Oho of th~ __ret~m_ m _m~qtiflm I was ~ling to mai~ il tllat tho Iri~ OVOl lzinginsom8~ But I stin had to my lt Buttt'snmmthingIthinkthatth~ulhofthoc~isata own kind of gatlm~Ks. Butwe~I~F~~y~my~m~mI~m. gir. Juu~ w~ iook~ at ~ mi lkiuor li~tm~ hi th~ city of Omhauea and although rm not V~h~ to d~ai ~ tcision o~am I ~ ~o ~o btcit into th~ ~ ax am I ~ totry mdev~ mn~ any quotl ln~ but I distinctly mncmlzr that w~ de~mimi m a ~am~aion to th~ City Cmm~ that ._onmbnn_o and liquor looked nt 1,000, 1500, even a qume~ of a mil~. It became, w~ becan~ pohlbly aware that if we went ~ Tlut'sthemtircmetroarca, perhapath~mtir~nation. And thnt wouldn't be imrd to justi~. Solfnver~ evcn an issue. I don't cere to f~t into that. Ithinkweneedm~~~~~Y~~~ now, cvmifit'scmly30fcct, thnt'snottheim]e. We'mmovingitclmertoth~zeddnUialarem. Ittriniritis this down in it's mtimty. [ guen L af~ ]i~min~ to th~ Mayer's cemmmu w~] be very P]eUed m n~pert tim 11 Chanhasscn City Council - December 13, 1993 Councilwoman Docke~: I ~ we glad to hear your lXOposal and I probably hav~ ~h~ sherbet history of knowing tl~ history of this bar and as I undcmland, lhe~ have been problems In the past but what I'm hearing tonight is that there's a lot of spec-la,on about what the problems will be as opposed, and ye~ I've heard two neighlxring people also shy that there lmven't been problems. They've been good neigh~ lint there's lots of speculntinn about what problems could be, and I'm not completely convinced that ~cre will be. Pm~ I do have n question for you. That is n municipal parking lot in front of Kenny's right? Krauss: Yes. Kram: I don't really know. Don. Don Ashworth: Clmrle~, do you have any idea ns far as the number of times we sweep it per summer7 Councilwoman Dockendorf: I mean how long does litter sit out, cr who's responsible for cleaning that up'/ Charles Folch: If we get a complaint, you know we respond to it right away but I would say a typical sweeping, at most it'd pwbably get swept twice a year. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Oh okay, that infrequently. Don Ashworth: But we do have an employee who is ns~ reaUy the downtown area and I don't think' stuff sits out more than a day, two days. · Councilwoman Dockendoff: Okay. I'm not also completely convinced that the two uses near St. Hubert's and Pauly's. They're probably, they are different hours of operation. I realize that there are kids programs going on in thc evening but I'm not completely convinced that they'll bump into each other. And on behalf of all the bikers in town, I probably frequent St. Hubert's and Pauly's about equal amount. I was sitttns up Imre trying to fisure out which on a weekly basis I ~o to more often but regardless, because of the Mayor's proposal I can save that discussion for later. And I think it's prudent to sit a year since the HRA has not designated any use for that site fight now. Let him stay dicrc a year and we either work with our ordinances. I think we will work with our ordinances about where we can place liquor establishme, nts. And it will give him, Mr. Pauly some more time to look around town to see where a more ~te site mi~t be. So I think that's a good su~estion Mr. Mayor. Mayor Cluni~: Thank you. Mike. Councilman Mason: Oh a lot's been said and I don't think I have a whole lot to add to it. I too support the transfer of thc license. I'm not sure from the city's perspective, across thc street is the best place. 'I'ne 2002 vision is talked about what's best for that area. I think from an I-IRA ~ve, a Council perspective, there may be better uses than a liquor establishment there. I do think we all need to keep in mind that the Pauly's have been a fine member of this community for a long time and I don't think we can lose siiht of that. Like I said, I su~ the transfer of the license. I certainly lean with the majority of feelin/toni/ht that across the street is not the place for it. Boy, it just went bhnk. Oh, okay. In terms of the year lease. While it's ~ue HRA has no plan on the table for that area, g~an what does that do for the other tenants in that area? Will they 12 ~ ~ty Council - December 13, 1993 CouncUman Senn: I guess I can't te~ I would support the transfer d the licetme mtil I ptem I know wllwe it would be going. I'd like to see Panly's may tn C~ ~ I think fltey'vo been a ~mXl part of Cllan,lmssea. I have to say though that l'm op~ to any trmmfer of it acrom the street w ~oscr m ~ ~ w St. l-lnbcn's, l'm really tm'n m your lwopm~ Mayor becanse I look at this ~nd I my geez, a one year extemion since the city bousht iL And it's been at a dollar a year bmically m a lmse with the HRA m it's a years. It so, as far as the year 8oes, I'd really ~ to see smnet~ du~_ would bold thc f~ct to the fire I ~ a Councilman Senn:~ ~about~~? Councilman Senn: In an effort to look at it further, and I lpmm I wouldn't be op~ to some type of m extension. A~in; I'm not sure a year. At the ewn e ttme you know as a part of that cxtesmion l think we ma~. cvcn ~y want to at least look at the issue that, I don't know. !~ where Pauly's is im't such a ~ ~ olher, l'mnottryinstoslllthtthch~foDmbutaftcr, l don't know. I*mjustofthebclief~I~y~ thc h'hrary belongs more as part of the mmiicipal complex dmq down tbc~ myself but thst's just pess l'm not really prepared to comment on that at all I gumm I*d bav~ a lot of questkms on tlmt. Maym' Chmiel: No. lVlayor Chmiel: You mia~md what I said. Is to mm Pauly's into a teen mice that's vacated. 13 Chanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 Councilman Senn: Oh. Mayc~ Chmiel: So with that. Cmmcilmnn Wing: Could we get some f-tmh~ clmiflcaflon? I don't wnnt to belabor this but the HRA that bought this, were they paid a fair price? Don Ashworth: Yes they were. Councilman Wing: $o they for many years now hsd a large amount of money that was paid for this property? They've been paid for the property? Don Ashworth: Right, Mr. Pauly, and it's my un&reminding that he Ires tnrned the Imsiness over to his son Russ to ~ dm'ing this last 4 years nmi he's enjoying retirement. Councilman Wing: Okay. The record here showed in the packet $860,000.00 they were paid. Why did the HRA buy it? I mean did they determine to tenn~ the use of bars in that stretch of town cr just wanted What was the reason for buying it in the first place? There was a reason for terwtnn_tlU~, liRA spent $860,000.00 to buy this parcel. They must have wanted to make some changes I'm assmning. Don Ashworth: That's cotrecL CounSlman Wing: Okay. And they're now paying $1.00 a year rent? Don Ashworth: Plus they pay all costs associated with operatins the facility. They pay taxes, insurance. Councilman Wing: Okay. Mr. Mayc~, I guess my only ndditional comment then would be in rogauls to this lease agreement. I think that th~ should, if this h 8oin~ to continue anothn' year, as Mr. Senn has v_id; for what point nnd when it's going to terminate, rnnybe an incentive hero would have them stnrt paying their fair share nmi we'd stnrt chnrging retail value for that property. Mayc~ Chmiel: Well yeah, that was the othe~ pnrt that I had indicated at the time. The other clnrificnlion is, there nre two parcels that are there. If we do the extension here, nr~ we required m put nn extension on the others? Don Ashworth: No you would not be required to do that. I would anli~ that you may end up with a request from either or both to do that. Mayc~ Chmiel: Weal that we can look at and addr~s at that time. If they were to come in. Okay, with that I would make the motion as to what I had stated prcvi~y in my disc~_m~_'on. Is there any other discussion to be made? Councilman Mason: So your mo~ion? Maycr Chmiel: My motion would be to support Pauly's Unnsfe~ of his liquor license but not at this location. And to extend iL Give him a year extemion on thc lease. 14 _O~n~_ ~ty Council - I~mmlm' 13, 1993 Roser Knutsm: Mr. Mayor, so if I csn just summing. ~ W'mg: I'II second _rrm_t_ ~Senn: Yeah, whai'sti~Imamtimcm~yag. Im~mn~'s6manthsy~begu~thecurr~less~' Mayor Chmi~: W~ll h~ find it within 6 lllOflfhs. ~ can rigid ir in 2 llMWlghf rigid slill ,mira his dgtll{~ thtnIi ~ing like 6 months m{l~ ol' SORl~hin_~ li~ thfit so thin thing ~ dot~'t kltM~'~ OtlL Councilwomm DockeaxJo~. So a year from now'/ Counciimm Sero: Yeah, I mean that's giving a yenr ~ now by giving a 6 month ~ ~ Seon: No, I said by siring this 6 maMh ex~ {t would be a ycsr fi~n et~vely the. first of lvlayor Chmie. i: Yeah risht, bu~ my motion was to Sh~ them ~ addit~ your with tho 6 months in th~ he fi]xls son~g tu so with that. Ijuftfeitthiwmmxtofafairl~losoou. 1~ 12ecausc lik~ I mid, HRA, I mean that's nothin8 Ge lhe Inhl~ for thl had yet. But why a ycfw as ol~ix~ lo a 6 month ~x~usim? hoping he'd feel a li~ moro c.~(rt~ with 15 Chan~ City Council - December 13, 1~3 Councilman Senn: I have a question for Roger. With the lan~,~e in there that we support the transfer of the liquor license to a location other than here. I mean to me that just scents ~ it has no place. I mean especially, I mean aren't we specifica~y reviewing a site hem and aren't we in effect rewpc~ to a site just as we would to a furore site? Roger Knutson: That's correcL Councilman Senn: Without making commitments of support prior to knowin~ even a site? Roger Knutson: If I'm under~ thc motion, I may have mtsundm'aood it but as I undemood that means yon generally will support a mmsfer. You won't say no to all locatiom. Of course you'll have to review it for a specific site when that comes in. As a really good example, ff he wants to put it in a reaiden~! neighbcflitmd, I'm guessing based on tonight's discussion, they don't have a chance. Councilwoman Dockendorf: That's a good guess. Roger Knutson: Thc findings will state that. It's a generic, you know we want you to stay in the community so we'll carefu~y look at any location you bring us but we will look at it and yon will review it to make sure it's in the appro~te location. Mayor Chmiel: Okay with that, I'll call the question. Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve the transfer of the on-role inmxkatina liquor license for Pauly's Bar, Inc., but not to the location requested; to five a one year extension on the lease and to amend the existing lease between the city and Fauly's for chriflcation; nd to direct the City Attorney to prepare Findings of Fact to bring back to the next City Comic*il meeting. AH voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carr~ with a vote or 4 to L Councilman Senn: And my reason is I think the year's too long. VACATION OF (~ERTAIN DRAINAGE EASEMENTS LQ~ATED WITIflN THE PLAT .AND SURRO~DING 1275 LILAC LANE, CITY OF (~HANHASSEN, Mayor Chmiel: This also is a public hearing. I'U open the public heating at this time. Would you like to Charles. Charles Polch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. I believe this is one that's pretty straight forward. I'll keep it brief. This is to ~_~ care of erroneous drainage easements that was underl~g the IthUen subdivision. It was brought to rows attention that it was no longer needed. Therefore we're Boing thro~ thc vacaticm with the utility plat. We have required the proper draizmse and utility easements... Mayor Clunicl: Thank you. This is a public he.m'ing. Is there anyone wishing to address this at this time? Yes. Please state your name and your address. Gordon Johnson: I'm Gmxlon Johnson. I live at 12,//5 Lilac Lane which is the profm~ mentioned. It is surrounded on the south and the west by the IthiUen plat and thc reason I'm here, I don't have a l~oblem with what's going on with thc easement but the letter to Charles Folch fi'om Dave Hempel dated December '/th is 16 17 Chanha~men ~ty Council - Deceanber 13, 1993 AWARD OF BIDS: FIRE ENGINE REFURBISHINGt Councilman Wing: Would it b~ too forward to move that Mr. Mayor'? Mayor Chmiel: No, I wouM think tha~ in looking to what we have. There's a motion on the floor to move it but we'll have discussion. Councilman Wing: No, no. No, please. I wish to have that tai~n from the record. Ii was inapl~. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. You're removed. Yes, Colleen. Councilwoman Docke~: Are these the, ScotI are these the bids thai we had previously when we decided not to do anything about it? $coR Har~. No. Cmmcilwoman DockeMorf: How did those bids look in co~ to ~se7 Scott Harr: The new bids are slightly higher bec. raise one of the things thai we agreed with working on this with the City Manager was rather than just cutting and pasting and patching, let's extend the life et' the uuck significantly. We could do that for another $10,000.00. That's to keep the truck going thai much longer, that was a beUer investment. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay. That's all Mayor Chmiel: Any other questions7 Hearing none, I'll entertain a motion. Councilman Senn: I'll move approval Councilman Mason: Second. Mayor Chmiel: h's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion? Resolution ~-124? Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to award the Fire Engine 210 Rehn'bhhin8 bid to Toyne in the mount of $'/4,9'/0~)0. Ali voted in hvor, except Counciimml Wins who absUined, and the motion carried. Mayor Chmiel: One abstention. Only because Mr. Wing is on the Fire Department. WETLAND ALTERATIQN PERMIT TO PROVIDE A DRIVEWAy ACCESS TO A ~NGLE FAMYI.Y PARCEL! LOCATED SOUTH OF LAKE LUCY ROAD AND NORTH~ EA~'T AND WE~T OF L41~E LUCY ROADi THE PARCEL I~ A PENINSULA IN LAKE Ll~(~Yt M~RK AND KATi~ ~ANDA~ Sharmin Al-~aff: The site is a peninsuh located nc~h, east and west of Lake Lucy. The only acce~ ~ this site is via a 33 foot wide strip. This strip is approximately 1,700 feet in length. Curreotly there is a trail...this trail into a driveway. In arder to do that they need to fill wetlands. A wetlands will be filled in this area and then in this area. This is aPlXoximately ~2 of an acre. They are replacing it with additional wetlands which 18 Chanlmsen City Council . Decnnber 13, 1993 Thank y~ Shnrmin. ts thn~ n m[mmatiw _u~t wisMns to hdi=a~ any:bins at an MarkSnnda: MynnmeisMmkhnd~ 'I'nisismywif~~n~w~'v~beenresMmtsofCimnhnssea for mm'ly 7 years. We've the people thnt are going fro' thh nppmvnl of the existing, of an mdstin~ ~~y ~'s anybody her~ tonight that was at that meeting and ~y thnt's imlicative of the fnct that w~'ve nflsfled Councilwomnn Doeke. ndo~ Ijustlmv~one. lf their dflNmw~ is flooded, wnshedontinanywny, cnnthecity become ~spon~bie Roger Knutson: No. You're not le~fly ~ Tlney can complain. Mayor C'hmie~ RighL Roger Knutsen: A disclaim~ wonld be aplxop~im~ ~ ~ ~ ~ a ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ you about it, there's a Ipeat body of case hw in ~thnt's 100~ ~ so fro'. 'I'rmt says thnt givin~ a building permit OF a condifim~d use permit ~r what hnv~ you is not nn insurance policy. You're ~ for the public good and you do not cr~___m any lriva~ dghlL 'l'mt's the cnse law now. So just becnnse peol2fe have appwfi~. 19 Chanhaxs~ City Council - December 13, 1993 Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Could you give us a disclaim~ Roger Knutson: ...referred to soils, you can just say we have, I think we have on other permits occasionally just saying that the City makes no representation nbout subsurface condition~ or the mbility of the site for a driveway. Mayor Chmicl: Atrisllt. I would so move that language. Being incorporated as part of the wetland alteration permit. Councilmnn Wing: Second. Mayor Chmlel moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve Wetland Alteration Pemit ~3-4 ns shown on the plans dated November 8, 1993, with the following cmdtttom: le The mitigation area is intended to be similar to the existing basins nmi, therefore, should be designed to the extent possible to have bottom conumrs tim ~ those of the existing bssins. We recommend that the initiation area be subcut to a depth 6-12 inches below the desired bottom elevation. 'l'ne basins should m'gnnic soils should provide a seed som'ce suff~ent to fncilitste the eslnblislmmnt of wetland vegetation contours. Side slopes should be no steeper uhan 5:1; side slopes of 10:1 or greater are preferable, Xf on-site soils demonstrate significant permeability, consideration should be ~iven to lining mitigation areas with clay or other impervious mat~Jals prior to lining th~ ~ with 0rganie soils. 2. Notification should be made to the Corps to verif7 covemse trader their nnrionwide $~ 404 penniL 3. A protected watn's permit must be authorized by the DNR before the project can IXoceeL . de-icing chemicals applied to the driveway in order to protect the quality of the water nmning into the wetland areas. 5. The applicant shsll submit a driveway design section through the wetland area to the en~l~eerln~ department for approval 6. The applicant shall obtnin a cross access easement from neighlxa'ing properties whe~ the driveway encroaches. 7. Ail retaining walls over 4 feet in hetght require a building petmtL 8. The driveway will service one single fm~Jly home. Only one residence will be permitted on the peninsula. 9. The wetland alteration permit will expt~ after one year from the date of City Council ~ unless substantial conslruction on the driveway has tnken place. 10. The applicant shall be responsible for all attm'ney fees associa/ed with reviewing and xecordJ~ tl~ application. Chnnhnsscn City ~ - Decem~ 13, 1993 11. 14. Engineer for approval. In the event purple Io(mstrlfe arem are disturbed durln~ ~ or the prup(md driveway, such purple ioemstrire droll be dispmed of property nmrdtq to DNR standards. The applicant stroll InsUdl the Itroposed 21.inch CMl' culvert tn n mmmr to bdiMme mm~wuter ruoff from the Klmble's property. An voted in favor and the motion carrkd naubmmsl7. 83TE PLAN _ul~v'IF.W AND CONDmONAL USE .I'~UMIT FOR & 64.132 SO. FF. BYERLY'S ~SUI~_._RMA_UKETt A 26,100 REFAIL BUn..nlNO, AND A 7009 ~SO. FF. COM]VU~CtAL BI,~tLDING, LQ~AT~_.D QN LOT 4, BLOGK 1, w~ Vl~.. LA(~E ~4so~tl'i~ 2ND ADDITION, T,F. N.n.m~ Addrt~_~ Tim Mmn~ Lyle King Kent Dixon Bob King John Meyers Chadi$ James 422 .~mm ~e Circ~ T.F. Jmnm Compnny Ma~rChmiel: Whyhsthi~notbeenputund~public~tbmfftt'sacondilkmmlusepmmi~ Dm? Councilman W'mg: I didn't know thnt_ Don't ~ lo me.. Maym' Cluniel: Ohy. Site plan review and com~lfim~d use permit for a 64,132 square foot Byu'ly's 21 ChaphAssen City Council - December 13, 1993 supermarket. A ~,100 retail building and a 7,000 square foot com~ building located on Lot 4, Block 1, West Village Heights 2nd Addition, T.F. James Company. And yon're on. Bob Generous: Thank you Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. I have just a few i~m~s ~ I received in the mail. This project is rill~ across from City Hall here...on the nor~west corner of Kerber and West 78th Su~et The muff development is for a 106,000 squar~ feet of comm~cial offi~...approximamly 50~ of the project is the Byerly's supemmrket. The reason that _this is a conditional use is because onr Code said that if you have mc~ tlum one principle bulklin~ on a lot, than it has to be approved for a conditional use. It's not for the specific Councilwoman Dockendorf: Bob could you repeat that7 I didn't understand that. Bob Cnmerous: Our code says tha~ on a zoning lot, you c~n only have one principle building. If you have more flum one, then you have w 8e~ a conditional use. Councilwoman Dockend~: Okay, Bob Generous: It's not for any specific use. The comp plan designates this property for commercial and the zoning is general business disu-icc The development of this site is consistent with...and the zoning. The genrad site covers4~e is approximately 53% of the site is impervious surface. 30~ of it is landscaping and aPlxoximately 16~ of it is...Access to the ~ is lxovided from a collector roadway, West 78th Street. There are 5 curb cuts serving this property. One of them is a shared use driveway with Lot 3. There are two entrance...two access points off of Kerber Boulevard. The most northerly one will be primarily for truck entrances. The landscaping, we've discovered the designation for the plants on this site does not meet the code intent. It will meet the code requirement as far as quantity. We will need to revise the ornamental trees in the Inttkins area to some, a permitted overstory type tre~ And if they increase planting and spacing on the entrance boulevards, they will have met the requirements as far as quantity....approved the interim use permit for the grading. They will be required to use the Best Management Practices for erosion control. For lighting they will comply with city standards and for signagn they're acOmlly going to come back through the city with a complete ~ct~e for the entire site. Staff is recommending approval of this development with the conditions outlined in Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. I would imagine that we'H have a presentation from Byerly's and if you'd like to set up your tripod in front of the podium. A little more towards the center would be great. Yep, that's Councilman Senn: Don, while they're setting up could I ask Panl a quick question? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. Councilman Senn: Paul, is there a reason why we're not, I mean given the scope of the size of this project and a lot of the issues with the ~ lines, is there a reason why we aren't potting to/~ber a PUD or usins a PUD here in relationship to present and futu~ controls as well as dealing with those issues? I mean typically that's what we've done. I guess I'm mn'prised because this is kind of the first one we've seen we haven't. Paul Krauss: Typically yes. We have been doing PUD's and..Aoing that way and it would have avoided the CUP in this instance. Basically wc made it comply with all the design criteria that would have been in there 22 Councflffmn Senn: Panl, it normally wmtldn't be is wtmt Fm saying. PatdKmnss: If it came into a PUD in it's entircty ycs. We'dlmvc... Councilman W'm~: I want to follow up m lv~k's question on the IqJD md you n~s~ to time renainn md hnvinstosothroushalonser, mm~~~ rvesotafeeltnsth=e's~~'s~-abisrosh, ff it's better to do it thnt why, we don't hav~ we're not in a rash to develop a~ brin~ 10,000 cars in a day nnlcss it's done right nnd if the PUD is the cem~ way to so, it's not our~ it's going to minca ionser ~ MayorChmicl: Paul,~m~som~~. Iguesslhaveacmlcemandljust~ittoRoger and I'd him to make a comment on the PUD. co~ply ~ qua~ o~ ~ zoning ormnance ~p~l~n~n~ the...your zonins ordinan~ w ~lues~-_~ a ptanned unit develomm~ Becmse in a planned onit d~elo~tmt you have thc flcxibfl~ to vary tl~ ~ You I~ct ~ ired you io~ [omc~ing Jf you will Councilman Senn: How can you say.. Rol~rKnutson: Aconditionalnsepmnitisnota~zotdns. Aeml~Hltonalusepmntt, cenninusessre, the reason tt~ is a condt~onal use permit, ts ~ is becan~ they want to Put two buildings on one ~ ~ Chanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 John Meyers: As Paul mentioned, Charlle James is not here yet. I'm sure he'll be here shortly. Charlle has two things going on tonight. One, I was with him today. He's sufferins from the flu and number two, I think the weather may have slowed him down a bit. But my name is John Meyers. I'm with Byerly's. I'm the Vice President of Real Estate for Byerly's. In Charlie's absence what I'll do, real briefly is I'll give you a few short points on the site plan. How we Sot to the point where we're at now. And Tim McCoy who's the project architect and who has laid out much of thc center as well as designed the architecture for the center. Tim will So throush and answer any questions you*ye Sot as well. Dutins my presentation if you want to ask me any questions about Byerly's. About why we*re tl~ere...any ideas that you've Sot that you want some answers for, ff I can answer them for you, I'n certainly try. We came to the city, aettmlly ret me stop back. We came to Charlie and Charlic came to us, it's been probably 12 months. About 6 months ago we Sot to the point where between Charlie James, the T.F. James Company and Byerly's have been workinlt to strJke...deal. We Sot that soing about 2 weeks ago. 3 weeks ago. We came into the city roughly the beginnins of ~. We sat down with Paul and the rest of the staff and went over basically what our ideas were for the project. We looked at a couple of options. One of the options we looked at was I~c~lns through the PUD lm)cess. One of the options was sticking with the straight zoning that the site has and proceedinS throush. The route that we chose was to So through in the straight zoning but our intent through that process, as we sat down with the raft, was to say okay. Bxplain to us what you need as a city as far as the design standards for this center. We worked out a lot of different issues with the staff over the last couple of months but I think mainly the point that I want to set across is, we really sat down and said, what's the best project we can do with what we've Sot to wozk with, beins Byerly's and the small shop tenants that Charlie wants to put inside. A lot of the design of the center and thc layout quite frankly was driven by us. From the standpoint of the general layout and the needs that we have with parking. The standards that we have for the design of the center. An all hick structure. Quite frankly when you take the materials that we're going to use on the center, the design standards that we placed on Char~ie along with what Tim has been able to do, we'll show you the elevations in the second. I'll think you'n find that this is the best looking center that is here in Chanhassen. This will really be a nlce...for the city. Our intent was to m_~lce it a first class project and I think we've been able to do that. When we met with, going beck to staff and we sat down with them in October. RealJsti~y we have some guidelines or some deadlin~ I shoukl say. from our standpoint when we wanted to see this store open due to some other development plans that the company currently has. And quite frankly we have a window of oppommity for next fall and this was the location that we wanted to try and fill that window of opportunity with for ns. So as we sat down and we looked at thc schedule, thc reality of it was that the only way. Not the only way but the best way to get through the process was to So through ce straight zoning which the site has and meet all the requiremen~ of the city. We didn't come in saying that the city had a landscape ordinance of x, y, z. Well we didn't want to quite do that. We wanted less. We ac.bally sat down and we said, give ns your landscape ordinance and we u'led to meet or exceed absolutely everything in that. We tried to meet or exceed the parking mndards. We tried to meet or exceed all the intea~r landscape parkins. The acme! design of the building far exceeds what the... screening and so forth. All the loading dock has screenings on them. We tried to leave nothing to chance basically through the process. When we came into thc Planning Commission, I guess it was last week. Week before last, They had some comments and we said fine. We're soin8 to address those issues and they were legitimate concerns and I think they make a lot of sense for the center. The points that they had and we're not opposed to those. We said...to make those things work so it's the fight kind of project for the city. So we're hem before you tonight trying to Set this last step in this part of the process. And then hopefully we continue to move down the path and set under conmuction sometime in January and open the store sometime armmd October 1st of next year. We'd like to be an addition to the city. We ~intc we bring some Ilood things to the table. As far as the company, we definitely expand the trade area that exists today. We do a lot of research on who our customer is and we do a lot of research on our existing stores and where those customers come from. So when we sat down and we looked at Chanlms~, we took the data that we have. In the 8 stores we have in Cimnhassen City Council - Decnn~ 13, 1~3 of rcnsom, ~ sen~ for us to be nt so that's redly why we're UTin~ to push nnd Ilet it ~I. We'd like m be here. That, I'H nnsw~ any qu~ttmm thnt I can for yon nnd I don't imow tf I'v~ reft out anythtn8thnt have to do to meet the codes to keep the ~ nmving and I realty sincerely menn tt whm I say ~ ~ m exceed e~g that was in ttmt pa~ that the city ~y stat om. If you want, ~ Fn do next is them. May~rOuni~ Good. We'll Bet back to you on that. Thsnks. tbe T.F. James Company for about 10 yeats now and al~ we've dine ~ he,me in the Twin Cilies area, thi~ is the first op~_mhy that we've tad to wodt wilh Byerly'~ Wlmt I'd like Io do is ~ive you an we wmtted with them and the T.F. James Company Io dev~ a number of altenmtive site ~ bns~ of the site nr~n. I think qu~ em'ly on we all nSx~! cr crime to a comensm thnt the cm~nt ~ o~ the to W to make some feature architectural elnneat out of the cena~ er the, er the entry m ~ B~'s ~ And Chanhassea Cit~ Council - Dec~b~ 13, 1993 congnuously down to the southwest ~ Now the Byerly's of eom'se has got one floor elevation. There are actually three breaks in the floor of the retail cenm' where it steps down. The sidewalk's ~oing down continuously but the floor elevation is stepped down in each of these ~ maj~ elements of the ~ cenlm'. And what that allows us to do, since we were approximate, ly 8 feet below the elevation of the Byedy's down at this western most portion of the retail center, it allows us to put a second floor on that yet still match the height of the Byerly's floor. So there's mc~ or less a continuous development of the heights and parapets all the way across the project. Also I should point out by pinching tiffs relail space down, it anows us to ~et some smaller shop ~ties and there were a lot of people that were interested in shop areas..$o the third component of that we did as really a conscious effort rather than connect it directly to the retail center up here, and devul~ an even lar~er expanse of parkin~ across the front of the site adjacent to West 78th Street. What we wana~d ~o do is provide a little bit of a closer connection with the street by developing that ~ down there and up, as I say the parking area and developing a little green space off of the north side of the reudl center. Throughout the process, as John mentioned, we woflr~t closely with the s~aff on this and we made a number of modiflcatims to the initial plans that were submitted to the city. One of those was to put parking off of ~ ms, jot entry drive from the Byerly's over to...sidewalk down to West 78th Su~et. Out to ~ Boulevard and also we've eliminated the parking thai was criginally...plan ~o develop that parking area to the west si~ of the retail. Eliminate any kind ~f potential traffic problems that we quite haven't met or. Most of the modifications some of the conditions and concerns that the Planning Commission addressed. And what we've done, initially we did have the spacing the city's bouie~'d trees along Kerber and West ?gth so we've got g~ose located and we took our overstory Irees thai were r~quired 1 per 30 feet of the perimeter fight-of-way of the project and we tried to cluster those between the city's boulevard trees in here so we could get sometlting that would have a little greaier landscape impact to it in terms of placing those trees rather than...The way the dev~t...all of the public entrie~ of the sile off of West ?gth and Kerber. These would be lower scale, mixed deciduous and evergreen shrubs with ground cover and pe~nnial type of flowering plants and those are ossongally north. We've moved our landscape buffer to these multiple family housing up to the top of the hill where it would be a mere effective screenin~ than what was initially lWOposed in the plan and that's pretty much a con~~ screen the Oak Ponds development to the north. In the parking areas, at the perim~ you've got the perimeu~ uaf~ islands. You've got the perimeter muT~ islands and in this partio~lm' site plan we show smaller ornamental trees that are...helght of about 15 feet. These are paired in diffenmt types of crab frees which flower in the summer. Interior parking areas, we've got the in~erka' islands with honey locust uees planted. ~ are over stay trees as well as over story lrees related to the driveway entrances off of West ?gth Slreet so we can get kind of a formaL.type of thing into the Byerly's and into the ~ center. In terms of the actual design of the building, that was lXetty much dictated or influenced by our work with Byerly's in Imms of establigting a design and an image for their store of which we applied to the rest of the center. And we wc~tixl and had done a number probably about 8 different potential Olrdons in terms of what the archi~ u~,aiment of the Byerly's sto~ should be before we arrived at the elevations thai you'll see here umi~t. And I think ff most people have an image of Byerly's stores, it's very kind of resuained almost ba~ Ixown brick ~ that are kind of very rectilinear and not a lot of conscience eff~t or whatever has been put into trying to mgly do a lot of architectural...and so forth. With Byerly's I think would really have a design philosophy related to their buildings I think would be in terms of mnirlng a b~_dla_i~lg that will welir well over tim~. So that it will look good 20 years from now. They'd rather not be on the cutting edge of building or design ~_shion but to have a building that will still look as good in the year 2010 as it does today. 26 John~: Oursto~inS~l~onFnmceAvmu~~in'71, tr'73. Sott's20yeariciL Bmifyou ~ at fl~qr building, if you go aroumi and look at other grocery stcrc; iht fu~ 20 ymrs old, I cion't think you're going to find on~ th~_r's ~ mxarl¥, nmr~, not ~ ch~s~.. Tim~ So what we'v~ ccm~ up with, w(~ with J~flhn and with Chmt~ b mstmthlly I Ihblk a icben~ tim ~puents ~ that's ~t with w~t Byerly's Archcdopcflinpatth~~walL ~hh~~~~~ Y~~~h~~~ 27 Chanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 2ohn Meyers: Part of your n~ctpmval, or the ntb'oval of the Planning Commission wns to in fnct mnke some features on this that would be similar in nature to the different roof elevations... Tim McCoy: I think that probably ~ives a fair overview of the project. I'm sure you've got a lot of questions thai would be typical .... John Meyers: How about the, do you want to show the other elevations7 Tim McCoy: I guess we've got a number of types, suPl~'ting boards mui so forth tl~ I could go flm)u~h, at the present time cr else we could address them...This might be an interesting one to show ac~_~Hy. 'rnese are all four of the Byerly's elevations which I believe you've got copies of but the entire store win be ~ in lxick. The front and back inckutt,~ the l_,:~41~g areas. These ~ to be n few sections through the site men. This is one at the center driveway off of West 78th Street mrting down here and showing the profile of the site up to the Bycrly's store...this central element as you saw ovor the entry of the Byetly's to mnl~a a special fealure out of that. In this portion back here at the townhouse property, this is nc_u,nlly blown up down bere to look at what some of the relative elevations are between the Byerly's nmi the townhouse project. We have a floor elevation of the townhouses of 996 and the top of the ~ at the Byedy's of 102.5 so the top of om' pnrntx~ nt the back of the Byerly's store is a~_mnlly 6 1/2 feet above the ground level fn~n the floor level of the townhouse development directly to the north. We've ~ot a little bit more of a seve~ condition to work with at the retnil center because in here the top of our pnrnl~ at the center of the retail portion gets mutller...is nc~_ rally about 8 1/2 feet below what the floor elev~on is on the multiple family dwellings that are being conslructed up on the west end of the site. These dwelling units are nc~_ tnlly 9 feet higher in elevation than what the current townhouses are on the east side of the property. So then combined with the fact that we're s~ppin~ down the reutil floor elevation in there makes a little bit more severe condition to work with but we do have a great~' flexibility to put our roof top heating and cooling units towards the back of the parapet because we've got much shorter runs to make within that portion of the project and we have a much grater flexibility in terms of where we can locate those nmi cluster those that we need in the supemuu~t area. But that probably...nnd like I shy, some of these we cnn utiliTg I gue~ when you have some questions related to some of the other... Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Councilman Wing: As part of your presentation, that out building. Theoretical use. Tim McCoy: Theoretical use? Well probably the party that wns most interested happened to be a service type of business. An office type of use in there. I think there have been some retailers that have expressed some Councilman Wing: Nobody selling hambu~ers or fried Connciimnn Mason: What are the restrictions we placed on it? Councilwoman Dockendoff: Fast food is excluded7 28 Chanhnssm City Council - Dmember 13, 1993 Cotmcilman Senn: But there's accomm_~on fur a ddv~ thru mi this. Mayc~Chmiel: Okay. Befim~ I bring it ~ to Council for any. Chadie, d~m'tbp~_~mus. I undermmd Ckarlic Jamcs: Unfortunately I'm not feelin~ too stiffT so...be mbjected m my mmL sort of led to wher~ w~ are snd l'm abl~ to immmt a site plan that Ires mots tn tkat C~ Council 11 months I've been working at a f'evefi~ ImCe with Bymty's. Two madu~ stndies have been __eompl__~d by Bycrly's and we have drawn and redrawn scv~ dozen site plans in coojunciioo with the input of the Bymiy's staff to design a project dt~ would meet w exceed the codes. Building a permitted ~ ~ m a ~ was occasioned by trying to split a project hito two segmms. Our Imrlm~ tlte~ was to add a pedesffhn element ~ West 78th Street and to vary the mami~ of the imildin~s. Th~tm~lout ai- lXOje~.__, my mission Twin Cities suburbs and som~hlng that would look as good 10, 20, ~0 years from now as it hopefully does toniiht. So we've put a lot of work into this md I hope dmt you mMmrt it. LyleKins: Good~. FmLyleKing. Fmwith~~~~?dn. altbe~~I complimented you on your presmtation and I really d~inir they have a beautiful ~ I think it's a ~ *h~ Ctmnlmssenneais. Ithinkit's~ymusdownthen2d. I think my mmom and my ~ rlsht now, youput You have great plans...but I don't think that you've talum a retail sales ~ o[ the doEa~ ~ ~. Ilmow have a 61% hnage roughly. We have a 55. We ~y have 75~ of the items ~ imve, We try lo ran a 29 Chanhassen City Coumil. December 13, 1993 them there. To give you a good example we ~ a, put a coupon in to bring people in. That coupon will be like on 24 pack of pop. Coke. We'll probably run a~ a loss at $3.99. I think some of you people have probably bought it. My competitor would be getting about 6 something for that. And...more power to them. I believe th~ the best thing about business is what will the public bear. Giving u'mm high qn~dity food. I eat at Byerly's a lot myself. Still do. But flint, we mn ~ coupon. Give you ~n idea now on money. We'll nm that coupon and they shop half ~eir groceries..~ Byerly's and come over and pick up that loss...from me. We'll going to split the dollars and the thing that I would like to ask you folks ~ have you token or have you seea what a retail survey on the market, how many dollars'you have. I know they would take about oh 40~. 30-40~ of our business. As each one of you knows today, that store's olmmting at n loss. We're co projection. Probably just a little bit above projection but we are losing money and I don't think we'll be black for nnother year, ff ~ But ff this store opens up, I'll guarantee you the first yesr he opens up we'ro going to drop 500 nad some thousand dollars. And as a Httle in,dent, there's no way that I would be able to take that and I know this isn't really a concern of yours but that center across the street should be. And if our business would I~O down, I'm sure some affects...so I would just apprec~ you taking that into consideration tonight. What is it going to do for your community and I think I would li~ to see a Byerly's out here but I would like to see Ihern out here inabbut2to3years. Andlthinktheypmagoodpre~entntionnndnlsonl~oodptan. Thankyou. Mayor Cluniel: Thank you Lyle. Amie Privie: Oood evening Mr. Mayor, City Manager, and Council members. My name is Amie Privie. I'm with Gateway Foods and we're the whol~x ~1~ supplies ~he F~mfival ~n~ md Lyl~ King. I ~ Lyle n~ae a lot of good points and I just want ~o add some food for thought. I certainly, first of all, want ~o con~ actually the architect and the plans of tht~ Byerly's store. It's very nice. And I know Charlio has been frustrated in wnnting to develop this pmlm'ty but nbout 2 1/2 years ago, and we'r~ going to reminisce just a little bit. About 2 1/2 years ago Brad Johnson came to our company, Gnteway Foods after a major wholesaler, had tm'ned down a store going into this location for this city. We took a lock at it and tinnily decided, and I know the City of Chanhassen wanted a store very badly. And the mae we got to look at if, we hsd Lyle King and he was interested to 8o in even though the stere was probably not going to make my money for 3 years cr longed. He said frae. He says, I've got 3 other stores. They'll help me out in the meantime. Now, we've only been here about a year and Lyle is, in what he's saying is very true. He has not made any money in this location nmi he's says into next year he's probably going to make some. I'd have to kind of dimgme with that. I think that he's probably looking closer to another 2 years before he's really going to make any money in that location. But that's neither here nor there. We're certainly not n.oninst competition. Competition is good. It cea~tinly would be good competition and would be an asset to the community. But I think the timing is somewhat a little bit off. I think that it's probably premature. They're certainly, they took surveys and so did we, In fact I just rook a survey here a few weeks ago to just make sure that we were, tint the numbers we had wa'e n fact. What you're going to end up with is you're I~oin8 to end up with two steres and two stores losing... As Lyle said, he can't afford it $o I think then it gets down to the point, does one of them leave. Then you've got one that's left or whatever. Or had this project been delnyed for a year or two, you would have two stores and both of them healthy. I want to commend the City of Chanhassen. I think you've certainly done a lot of things right. I think I can remember back to about '86 or '87 when I first came out here with some people ltmt were trying to develop the area and it's a world of difference since then. $o you've got to be commended on what you've done. I guess the food for thought I would like to leave with you this evening is that probably you should lake a hnrd~ look at how you're going to lwoceed as far as the mpennsflms that you want to serve you in this community. Also, I would have to echo what Lyle King has made the statement Have you taken n survey as far as the city is concerned to find out what your needs really nrc? Cnn you support two su~? I really don't think so from the figures I've seen but that's for you to decide and I want to thank you for the time that 3O City Council - Decunber 13, 1993 development. Our ~ as you well know. have made a major tnvealment in Mmi~ Squme ak~ with the City. We owe the City some $800,000.00 trx~ m our devekMnem, grows enough to SUPlX~ ~ ~ m We have to So beck a coupl~ of ymrs lzre and rps"~ that we virmn]ly had lo beg. WemonningyonnndmtogotPostivalouthgrointho~stplnco. Andnowwo'mbotn~ told, I think, tlmt thtK m~lne~, for virmn,y double _dua iperinfl the fact that there's been stone other strum markeq2lac~ lsthcremadteq~Jncethn~? Fm not ~ w~ can't put up with compe~b~ Whm~~'s tenants. Can they withsumd a loss of tmtnc if Festival sees a, I think th~ said a 30~ to 40~ decl~ h ~ Now thnt isn't going to be n decline necessm'Hy in 30~ to 40~ of sales to our small tmmus but it's certntnly soins totting smncdecline. Wlr, therthnt's 10,20. Icm't~ lt'ssoingtovnryforeachofthnnbut We're ~ about keepin$ a vinblc center tn the near tmn. 'l'ne ~ 2, 3, muyt~ even 4 yenrs until the invcsm~nt there ~ b in mine clcg~ of jeopardy ~ it's hard to Iredict exactly but it's certninly is in came up with this, ltfollowssomeoftheothcrByedy'spettgr~. It'savcryniceiookingcenter. Ontheolher ~na ! do have to question why the concept is radically diffmmt than what has been going on in town recently became what was brought ~n wns sufficicntly nice, anditiL Verynice. AndX'mnc~suggesfin~gotmck, I'm only kind of questiontng why did the mles chan~ Ittsamaj~chan~f0rthecity. lquemicnalsof~na design aspect, ns pointed ont a IRfle bit the section sotng up the hill= if that will seriously hide nil thc roof lop nnit~ up there. I'm not saying it won't but I don't thair the evidence says it wilL..nnd I queslion Issue nnd the ~ it could bring, not only to onr center but it's my undcrmndin~ Ihat Byerly's ilseJf will Dean Johnson: Hello. Mynan~i~DeanJ~ l'mthe~nndbufld~ofth~OakPondstownhome pro~ct right to tl~ norlh of _thi, ~ sit~ lrn~t I'd Him to s~ that as a ~ goin~ ~..quite a few people, one of the thin~ thnt you wanted my establishment Io lell my ~ve clients is Itutt this 31 City Council - Decemb~ 13, 1993 doing. We feel that thc plan that is before you is within that and we have 11o problem with that plan. I did come to the Planning Commission meeting to dotemtinc a few of the things as it related to us. My main concern was where the air conditioning unils were going to be for noise and those types of things and we found that they had enclosed them and they're using cooling towers and these types of things to cut down on the noise pollution and wc apprecis~ that also. I like the project. Ihavcnolnoblem withit. I gaess a couple of the things that may be, ff staff would look a~ in developing this project is where the screening is going to be around the units Gas lines, air conditionin6 lines or other types of lines up on U~p of the roof. Maybe they could be pu~ in a bar joist. Those types of areas. Clean up the roof so that the views from the Urwnhouses don'~ have to look cu. We'd appreciat~ that. And the other thing that I guess I would like m u~ abou~ is, being lira I did work in the grocery induslry there. I Euess I business, I have is a nice project for my project. for7 1/2 yeats is tha~ possibly frmn time to time u~cks and track ~ ~ ~ ~ would probably be oPlx~ed to those types of things. If they come and they go in nomud uso of no problem with that but if they...I think that would be a problem. But asaln I'd like to say this and other than those two items which may be more staff orientated, I do not see my problems Thank you. Bob King: Mr. Mayor, members of Council, my name is Bob King. I've never been ~ before and addressed you. First of all I want to flumk you and the City, the people of Chav~ for ~ support they've given us at Festival Needs. It's one year now. We really must ...never lmmt flint of any other location we've been ~ Thank you for locating out here, I don't live in the atca but I do enjoy working with the members of the community. Employing them and sup~g their, your functions. The City ~ and I promise to continue to do so in the future. It's been a lot of fun. Just by what I've seen tonight on civic involvement h~'e, it's really been an education for me. We came for the first ~ and i~'s been fun sluing through this. I too sm going to ask you to consider pu~ing this off. This project off for some time~ You how what our ~ line is. We've presented that to you. The loss that we're going to have..~ur store is on target and We ~re retaining losses that we expected to. I just ask ~ I know what the projections ~re for growth and we built this store on ~he understanding of those projections. Pop,lstinn growth and knowing what your projections sre, I would say that Byerly's and Festival Foods could operate profitably a year or two from now. TImnk you. Mayor Cluniel: Thanks Bob. Is there anyone el~7 Dan Beckman: Good evenin$. My name is Dan Beckman. I five at 689~ C~ Lane. I want to thank Mr. WinS hem for his comment about not l~ng rushed because I lhink a project of tiffs size needs to be carefiflly thought through. I have a few things I'd like to brin8 up for people to consider. City functions st the park up there. Through the Rotary Club I've been involved in many of those functions and there are a lot of people in towu and, you may feel different. I'm not going to u'y and ~ you what you guys put on but many of those functions, and it p~ks a lot of people and that's wonderful but we have a safety problem Im~ with the atw. ess off of Kerber Boulevard. Prom what I understs~ there's gtdng to be two aa~.~sses off Ketber. We have pstks, ballfields, this sort of flflng...right now. There's young children. My children are there playing sports. We ~o to the Chaska School District. The~e are also a lot of youn~ children ridinl~ their bikes to school down the~e walkways and stuff that we put in and I think thcre's a real safety issue there and I guess I'd like to maybe hear what thc safety director has to say about that. Kerber Boulev~ right now, maybe the traffic level has Ilone down. I live risht off of Kerber Boulevard on Chaparral Lane. Since they dosed the one, or Powers Boulevard down there, thc traffic on Km'bcr has been tremendous. To add another stop light on West 78th Street, in my opinion would create that same effect. Anybody wanting to go to downtown Chanlmsaen no lonlP~r would go down to that comer and take thc main street in. They're going to take Kcrbcr because ff you put another light in there, to get to their destination they're going to have 3 stop lights to go before they even Bet to the point where 32 Chnnhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 MaycrChnfiel: Snm. We dtscuss tt ns welL whcre they nccess the City HaH and stnff. Do you want to be whcze thc Smi~r Center is rlsbt hw~ Wehave old pcople comins in there. How wHl _thi~ affect also the Public Saf~ as far aS lXiffomn~ IIhinktlmt'sa thing to look at. A store of this nm?t__t~l~_ with~andwhatimveyouandallqu~st~eltm~ I'm assuming thcy'rctmvins aliqu~stm~ *flmt's~~~~ ~whichwHllxotm~ytmve withhold zoninS on this si~ plan mi spMoval to provide I Iptas b ~ ~ Ixtck with l~stival mid Marl~Squar~ RoBcr, maybeyoucanjustscwtc~l~jvemeacommmtmttmt~ Ijust-wanttom~resurcth~ I'm going to be in thc right baltp~ hm~ 33 Chanhass~ City Council - ~bcr 13, 1993 Roger Knutson: Yes. People always complain ~ lawyers talk for au hour to give you an amwer. I'll give you ~n answer then I'll talk for sn hour. The Supreme Court, in a decision that goes bsak I don't even remember. ?0's...said ~he purpose of zoning is not to reg-l~,~ competition. In sn early case Ihat I've been involved ac.,nlly Edina where them were four comers. Three gas rations on three corom's. The fourth one csme in aud wanted a gas station and Edina said no. We're afraid ff a fourth o~e comes in someone's going to everyone knows they aren't very attr~tive snyway. The Court said no. You can't use zoning to regulate competition. The msrkeaplsce does tha~ The purpose of zoning is multi-~ but it's to sepm'ale you tonight you should remember is two things. You have a site plan review. The propose of the site ~ detatled. So you've got to say is there anything in that site plnn requirements that they haven't satisfied. If the answer is yes. Then you can make them change their si~e plan. Thc second thing is the condlflem~l use permit. Does it have two buildings on one piece of ~. Tlmm you have the smuisrds in your zoning ordinance for issuance of a condi~nal use pennic And they're raingeut and u'~ere sm a lot of titan. Those mndsrds have · e conditional use permit. Not regulating comlmition. No~ TIN is something else md that's ~ for the HRA to decide. And they have much more discreaion to consider all sins of things. Mayor Chmiel: From the HRA mpect, ff this were to go, there is x number of dollars if I remember ~..o it. 900 snd some thousand dollars that would be av~,nhle to sssist with TIN dollars. I know we're looking at 3 different things on this. We're lookin8 at Byerly's with a 35.7 square foot retail center. Separate 7,000 square foot center and 64,132 square foot. Providing those TIN dollars, those TI~ dollars would they ~o to each segment of this? Would it be divided nccordingly from the $900,000.007 Don Ashworth: Typically on this type of a project the dollars are rcally failing to the deve~, as I understand this. Mr. James will own the entire facih'ty and typically to be able to bring in a grocery store he has to drop the lease cost in the supermarket area. And so those dollars wonld be used to reduce special assessments. That's a first priority by city standards and then secondarily, he could use those dollars to attract tenants. He may want to expand on that further. Mayor Cluniel: Anything Charlie? Chsrlie James: I con~ur essen_a~,y with what Don has said. I guess I'd remind thc Council that, to ~he ext~mt that my property taxes have increased over the 7 years, I've been paying into TIF too so some of my money is already going to Market Square and I was hoping that tonight wasn't going to be the venue to discuss these matten. But I'm certainly prepared to do that ff it's the wish of the Council. I don't think that's an ~ usc of this forum. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Don Ashworth: If I could add. It's not unusual for Todd cr I to rec~vc an inquiry as to what the existing policies of the HRA are and typically we'H get a call or individual stopp~s and he'll state that he is repm~mfins a business and that they're looking at various locations for thaL 'I'ney'H give us typically a size associated with it. They'll nsk that any information, that they're not at a position to really disclose who it is that they're maybe working with. Again, they're looking to see what the city policies, what I-IRA policies nre regarding TIN dollars. We repeat to them that it's been our policy to provide upwards of 3 years of TIF. That's it pay as you So plan December 13, 1993 We renHy d_~_~'t know who it was tmfil ~y w~ hnd nmde the ~ over to them. '1~ Iswoml will be put into writing nnd will gmemlly be sent to that deve/over prd~y nt lenst me ymr, ff not 2 to 3 ymrs~ thethingrenllybecomesarenlity. Aletm'wnssmttoMr. James, Iwonldsnythntthntwaswdloverayenr withaclieat. 'l'natitwonldbegumally, iflrecall~Chnd~75,OOOsqmmfeet. Tnnt you wer~ not in aposifioaw~ew~~ Youmkedwtm~~wem. W~preparedaleum'and~i~myou ns to what the existing Imlici~ were. We hnd no knowled~ tim, it wns po~a-11y a Byedy's mttil I would ~, IneRtly 6 to 8 weeks Chndie 7nxnes: As n nmter of fact ns pm of my ~ nego~ims With By~'s I wmn't Immimd to nse their nnme until nfler ~ 31st. And one o/the things thnt we're, nnm~ point I guess I'd like Io mnt~- is, there's been some ~ m my psn f~r 7 yen~ nnd what's ~ b tiffs ~ is nxl/dn~ ~ there's ~ ~ ~t ~ ~~g and it seems to me ev~ tin~ flm~'s been son~ ms~r iss~ in town And I wns very ~ Byefly's hns a pnymH of over 300 peo~ in flint smn~ ~ ~ ~ ~y ~ hour or nfler work or shopphg e2sewhe~ in Clmnlmsszn so I think thnt's n real ~ Io the dtY. Again as I said, money from my proje~ hns gone to Minim Squint. I dm't know why th/s wasn't an issue in the pnst pi~_ You had Brooks go in. WhenIwnstryingtogetmyPI~wns~herelmtmym~nev~ Competition. $oIguessI'm~~~~~~tt'sralhernnsty~y· Bntonth~m~ hand, ns Brad told me nfter the first Plnnnlng Commission ~, hh miss~ "wns to kill the lm~'. think ~ I'm not sure th~ 'I~ is the issue im~ I think thnt ther~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ a ~ ~ ~~ng something and I think it's nnfimunn~ ~ay~ Chlnie. l'- W~ll y~l. My Ie, ll~ning for mnlrin_.o that, I was getting some free advice from our A~ because I siton the HRA ns well nnd he nmmally doesn't ~ to onr l~n~__~_ t~ mem/ngs so I'm ~ting a Council might wnnt to keep in mind, and also th~ HRA, is that it's beem th~ t/l~'l ~ to u~ SII~ Aid monies m the rcsideafial succts. You'v~ reed flzm oa $fmnewsslm ~ and a lot of, I ~ sram of the 35 Chanhass~n City Council. December 13, 1993 enough water pr~sure. You didn't have sewer. You didn't have all those things nad when I came to those first meetings, if you'll check the record. I'm on record because I made a point of this at every rneeti~. I was facing a million dollars in assessments on my propet~ and nfter 7 years, God knows how ninny hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of assessments and taxes I've paid on that propmy out there but at every meeting when they were going to put in storm sewer, or sanitary sewer or new su'eets, I was at that meeting and saying, but for TIF I couldn't live with these assessments but I know that someday you're going to be them when I need you to help me with these assessments and I'm on record for a 7 year period, for ns long ns you've, any time that you've had anything that put assessments on my project. Or tm my land out there. So I think that's another valid use of TIN and ff there's people that are feeling that this isn't flowing to the residential pm~s of town, I think they should go back and look at the original notes and Minutes from when the Tn~ district and that conscience decision was made to allocate State dollars that otlm'wise could be used downtown building an these streets. They said no. We're going to put them out on the residential streets and thoroughfares that benefit the reason for creating TIF but that was one of the arguments for creating this district. Now we've been part of this, and I've been going along with this and I'm paying taxes to this thing and while I've been waiting here for various reasons, for 7 years I've also, my money's gone into that fund so in that sense my money has gone to Msdtet Square. It's gone to Kenny's. It's gone to the motel. And now I'm here tonight so. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks. Do you have a response? Don Ashworth: I totally agree that Mr. James is on ~ Every time we did go through one of those major trunk, whether it be water, sewer, storm sewer. They were mnjor, major assessments and I would say that a good sham of the ~ incentive dollars are literally going to ourself. I mean they're flowing to trim but then he's using those to pay off the assessments that put in the trunk lines, the trunk sewer, the Irtmir wnm'., the streets, you know on and on. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks. Richard. Do you have my questions? Councilman Wing: Phone calls I've had limited but the phone calls I've had have said we really want tut, Byerly's. We want the restnumnt. We want the store nmi I guess I do too. I think the project's a good one. As I talked to staff about it, I tried to check with Charlie today nmi there's some minor issues ou landscspi~ tim I'm pretty inflexible on but that's sort of...my thinking. I would ask the people from Festival ff this retail survey is so significant, has it been done. Has anybody done it? There's an these assumptions being male and Byerly's thinks they can make it or run the other people out of business and the other guys think we can't maln~ it if Byerly's come in. And so they're saying, have we done a survey. Well, we're not the b~_~inessmen. What have the businessmen done and maybe they have some information to save us some bother but on the other hand, I think we want to be businessmen and we don't want to see our city ahan~ and Market Square fall apart. I think that, I was on the Council or I got on just as the Market Square was coming together and there was a lot of trauma in trying to get a store to come in. We we~ out bering frankly nmi I don't want to forget the history of this. We were out searching for n store to come in and take a risk with us and nobody wanted to touch it, And now that they're here and they're just starting to get their feet wet and their feet on the ground and the center's barely got the paint scraped off the windows, we're putting in some pretty stiff ccmpetition so I really support Charlie James. I think he's got some very valid points and I'd like to see a Byerly's here, But I'm also deeply concerned about our, is the ca~ ~ the horse or are we going to be up in the drivers sent here and who's in charge. I don't intend to be lXOtectionist here and I don't, I'm not an umrk~ analyst. My wife and myself kind of felt they offset each other but that's a stupid opinion. I'm ceminly not qtmlified to mnke that statement for eithe~ store. So I guess I wish we had some re, al infommtion. I guess I'm going to play 36 this. I'dlik~to~B~y'sgoin. Iwould~~ lneed~4mm~lreesandit'sadm~deaL But l'm real concenmt about ~ ~en~ fr~n Ly~ ~. I took his comments, sincere ~ ~ so that's whntI'mlookin~ for to mnt'a this shormn my process lm~ I~ I'dlik~tose~anm-I~nsed~m thru I guess ~ J~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~ ~. If it's a n~al nmn~ p~nk~_, ~ Byedy's wnnts to come in w/lhout TIF and thru let th~ TIP suppm't~o toour ori~nni store. ButI'm v~rynaiW on _t~, rm going to wait and hear what the n~st of th~ Cmm~ Ires lo my. A lit~ mo~ ~ ~ Councilwoman Dock~do~. Well I would agree ~t~ I'd lik~ to see m ~ rep~ nnd it's not fl~ ctl~'s n~xms~ility to lxoduce thac 'f'nnt madm snxv~ bnt what I'm not mo~ ~ in, not insofar cnn w~ suPlXaX a Bym-ly's store In addition to a Festival ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If you look st the dem~ of Clm~m~ I don't know if thnt's whnt you d/d your mm/z~ sm'v~ research Imsed m but l ~. We contin,u~ny I~ complaims about tng~ tm West 78th, eyre with th~ ~ or I simuld say I would !~ to see a Byerly's in town too and I do see the matt~ as diffeaeat ~ I mtliz~ laestival w/ll I~ probably losing mae mcm~ than ti~ hsd anti.smd. But rm not sure that's ilar us to ~ ~ e~st's. rend nt the P~nnning CommissUre thnt they ~ whnt thnt ~ would be. It nplmUS lo be dmsfical~ diffe~nt _mn, the rest of the. Tim McCoy: Lowered in elevafion by $ f~"t. I can't ~ll you off the top of my lm~ what ~ etmm/on is. lolm~ Lowning it 5 feec Tim M~Coy: We did lower it 5 feet, oki. 37 Chanhassen City Council. December 13, 1993 Councilwoman Dockcndorf: So it's not drastically different then thc rest of the bulldin~ Tim McCoy: No. Apparently some visibility problems related to the rest of the center. John lvleyers: It might be a design issue. Paul Krauss: Yeah, are we talking elevations in height or elevations in tirade? John Meyers: I think you're talking about the building. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'm t~tg height. Paul Krauss: The Planning Commission's comments had mostly to do with what the building ~ like and that it needed additional ~,~t~i~gs so it picked up on mc~ of the design theme of the main building. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Oh, then I misunderstood. I thought they were talking nhout height of the building. Okay. Screening for Oak Ponds. What I saw from what the drawings, they looked like deciduous Irees, Is that going to be sufficient in thc winter time for screening? Bob Generous: There are evergreens here too. They're making the spacing lo 10 foot on center instead of the 15 so that, which is consistent with what Michael Schroeder has suggested tl~ they do. What he said...m make sure that those lines with thc propo~... Councilwoman Dockondorf: Okay. And just a final comment. On a project of this type I think we discussed it. I think Richard you brought it up with the expansion of the hotel. It would have been nice to have seen a schcmatic of, like an artistic impression of what thc site views would look like as opposed to architectural drawings like that. ~ust a seneral comment for future. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Michael Councilman Mason: I have not had a whole lot of calls on this. The calls that I have had have said, boy it will be great to have a Byefly's in town. I think the site plan looks really nice. I do think it has the potential to be one of thc nicest looking things in the city. I'm very concerned hoaring from the King's, and they're hearing from Gateway, and I have to ask myself what is and what isn't competition. As rrmqy of you know we're embroiled in somewhat of a brouhaha over thc organized waste collection situation and we've been told over and over again by the haulers, by the community, competition has got to be there. Now who decides when competition should take place and when it shouldn't. I have, I think Mr. James brings up an ~ll point What was said when Brooks came in. Who cares that Kenny's is gone. Who cares that Chalet pi~ is gone. Now I obviously that's a fairly smaller scale than Festival Foods and I don't mean to put those two in the same league. However, I would be very hard pressed to say we can't allow a By~rly's in town fight now beck__ p,e we're afraid of what's going to happen to something else. I think that sets an incredibly dangen~us precedent for all of us. I have some feelings about market driven economies and I think as a city we do have a right to say, well. Well, maybe this should happen. Maybe it shouldn't. We also legally have some ~ because of the way things arc zoned. I know we had a tough time getting a grocery store in here. I also know the volume of business that is coming to Chanhassen because of Festival Foods. Does anyone, Don. Do you know what was the POip~lAtion of Chanhassen in '86? Give or take. Anybody. 38 r Chanims~n City Council - Decemb~ 13, 1993 Mayer Chmiel: 14. ~ncUmanMason: Cimeto lSmdwlmthnv~we~inthey~mr20107 35,000. We'xm~ 35,000 in the ymr 2010. Intt~h~dm:eI'vebemo~~ Rlchsrd, you'v~ been hn~ with me tn our somewhnt Istef but at limes vu'y lengthy tcnm~ How runny hmnes have we ~ in the lnst 3 yem~ ~ Mnson: I am not belittling the Ktns's in any way mi this becmme {tint's a ~y ~ ~ Butlhavcareal tmlBhtime.~ttinguphm~nnd Ibeliev~Mr.~mndel2~~Ood. I don't know how I cnn tell Clmdie James, who I know ires tu~d a Iongh tin~ on that c~ner f~ 7 YmXt, ~ ~ imve m hurt for another couple of yearn. I'll Set off my ~ lint I wmd~ what ~ ~ if the rabies were tnrned here nnd ~y wnnted to come in and Bymiy's was nlrendy here nnd Byerly's wns snyin~ think we need to talk about thi, some mo~ ~ bat it sure looks like a n~ lnoJect m me,. Councilumn Senn: Well I ~ personally I'd love to see a By, fly's come to C~m~nssen. I'd Im~y frequent iL It'd be a good nsset to the community nnd bnsically w~t I'v~ seen of I~e ptnn shows that archi~y ~ ~in_.o else it's a good plan. moving a little too fast mi the ~ because really the Qnmcil's only recently been made awnte of the plnns it's real ~t to selmrm~ the ditTm~nt e. lnnents of it. 3'ney're aH eatwined and I mean it's mai ensy to talk but I think ttmt's just, those arc xcality ~ II, it we have to ~o ~ You know rmdin~ tlmm~ the staff reports nnd nn the information we've gc~en here, I ~int it raises n lot of qnestions and out of I guess in effect some respect of stnff, it shows that they'~ hnrrying lifts became I don't think we _nmm~ly ~t reports dmt raise so many quemimm ns this one's raised nnd ~_~- You know the traffic, you know I _*~nt it was Colleen n~mced, you know wns renlly a crucial point hm~ I menn I read the stnff reports ~ ~ ~ n* every word ns it relates to tm_me nnd I keep hearing ~ ~~ ~ m R ~ m ~~Y 5 ~ ~ ~ ~ m ~ upgraded portion o~ 78th. I see no references in thwe nt all in ~lnl~ to Kmtmr nnd to Powers, to TH 101, to the east portion of 78th which isn't upgraded. And IIlness I have some mai questtms ns to hey, Byedy's is a msional tenant. ! mean they're not soins to be dmwlns jnst frmn the _commm,tty. ! mean there's L~-'*~.* to be tens of thousands of people ~g Ctmnhassm, which is a ~od _,hlng but at the mine time they're ~ng to be reason tosayyea, nay or whatever. I think d~t's semethin~ we need to look nt. XfdmtinfmmllMim'sthes~l guess I'd love to see it but I hnv~'t seen a traffic stndy with Iltese ass~ in it- You know that tells ns tenant. OrnnotherregionnltesmntIsbmddsay~tttn~downthem. Idm'tmeantobeconf~ngtbcrelmtX 39 Chanhas~,a City Council - ~bea' 13, 1993 that draw fxom the very immediate area of community. Commercial which basic, aily pmvid~ for the community itself and you have regional that survives off a very broad area, way beyond the community boundaries and I don't think anybody would debate that Byerly's isn't such a regional Imumt. And we already have ono in place with Target and I think that just makes it even more important to really sit back and look at that question. The TIF issue, TIF's always a wonderful arsument and I'm not 8oin8 to Bet into it tonight but it's, you know Mike's comment on you know, what's fair for this side. Ia it fair for the otlm' side7 You know if they've Sot TIF questions.., and our policy sets that and stuff but at the same time we also have to Hve with ~g decisions that have been made and the existing decision's beea made. The existing decision was made to pump a very significant portion or amount of money into Market Square. I think over a milllou ~ in ~ subsidy to the tenants that are the~e. That'san upfrontsubsidy. That' s not one we took over a 15 or 20 year period. That's a subsidy that's been cranked in in the first 3 years. We run, if we don't consider it in relationship to our decision, we nm the risk of jeopardizing that and you know quite frankly I wouldn't want to be in a position to go back to the taxpayers and say hey, sorry. We lost it. But again, I don't think we have the ~ to that. The comments earlier about a market study. I think we really do need a hroMa' nmrk~ study at ~ point and I think it needs to be in effect ordered by the city because if we're going to protect our investment, I think we need to look at it. That's not to say it's ultimately going to come down to deciding the deci~on but A~in I ~ The curb cuts on ~. Do we have adequate protections in place to make sure the semi's aren't going to 8o north on Ketber? I mean I don't know. Those are all planning questions I don't think we've even gouen into or at least they're not ref~ in the repom at all Let's face iL Byerly's is here because Byerly's got turned down in it's number one site. I don't think that means we have to react instantaneously to the project We go back to what I said. I mean this is real complex. It's basically a set of negotiations and you can throw anything you want to into the negotiation. I kind of raised the question earlier on PUD's. I'd really like to see a PUD here for a lot of reasons. Again, slill...I mean we created a PUD for a reason and I've never seca a project similar to _thi, go through C~ without a PUD. But I know the applicant doesn't have to do a PUD. I also know the applicant could take the one out building out at this point or attach it to the shopping center and not have to be here on a CUP. But I also know we don't have to give him any subsidy through TIF, you know. And I also know that we can require more and better planning and complete planning and I think that's really the stase we're at. I think ultimately I'd really like to see Byerly's aplXoved. But that's just nothing more than a gut, and I mean that's based more on an individual desire than on good knowledge. And I'm not saying let's deny it and I'm saying what we really need is more answers. I'd really like to see the planning phase completed before we complete the nego~rlnu phase and we almost seem to be getting garc_.-,t_ into completing the negotiation phase before all the planning questions have been answered. That's what I'd really like to see us revert to at this point. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. I'd just like to address to the issues that you brought up. One about the market study. I know for a fact that Byerly's would have gone through the ~ of doing a market study for the store. I've ~nr~ to them about it and that's not a privy thing back to us. They ~ that as a very traded secret from their words. But I don't believe it's up to the city to wovide that market muly either. Unless we get it back so we can really look at it and it's a personal and confidential kind of thing but I think ff we we~ to review that and regard it sa such, it lxobably wouldn't be a lm~blem sa far sa I'm concerned. I'm not sure as to what position Byerly's would take ou it. The second thing is. Councilman Senn: Don, in terms of the market study. I don't mean to mtsin~ the~. I mean I think the city needs to be, in effect the party that receives the market study. I didn't say that the city should pay for the market study. I can show you countless communities around here that require the dm~lope~ to pay f~ the market studies and city commissions... Cotmcilman Senn: But Byerly's exis~ market study I'm sure only deals with the mml2t from Byerly's l~VC. I'm sum it doesn't deal with Festival's per. vt m' n _cemt*dm~tinn at' tim two m' their madmt Byerly's but I think tt is a concern to us because of deckims we've nl~ made in ~lalionsbip to invemments Councilman Wing: Just befon~ you leave _,hn_ t subject CouncilmanW'm8: It seems that ff the lmlicy is to allow TIF do/lan, wlflch is the policy. Immnldm'tlmve anyprob]emwlththat. ThatHRA_m~_~ttoknowwhatth~'l~doJn~ T'natwhfglw~start~tnml~, rcB~onal players ~ 'Tml~ and wtmever else is cmnin~ in and now Byerly's, HRA and staff ought to lmve a basicinfonuation we ought to know. Idon'tHImwnnttoseeYmdmtSquam~~~ Yoo'mrlght. Maybe we're missing some infcnnnlto~ Nor myself, mid now I'm going to ~ I'I1 JUSt trick onto thnt next MaycrChmicl: Okay. No, and l know that we have got invmm~nt wiflfin it and l too woulda't wnnt m see nnyemptystm~ts. Ttmtwouldentnilfrmn scmelm~tlem_tt~conldbethcm, rmn~~~u~e?'d probably lease it for x number of years. They'm stfll going to pay o~ that. 9~:telitcrltbol~slivalm~. Those dollars am still going to be there to pay fro' thc lmmc~ but it's still nn empty stm~ front as . something to look at. And the other thin~ I WaS going to address rogarding ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Street. Councilman Senn: Idcm'tknowthnt. Imzanldm'tscoanycontmlstnplace. 41 Chanhassen City Council - Dec~mber 13, 1~3 Mayor Chmiel: Right. Their accessibility is coming tight back onto 78th and going back out to TH 5 for a faster accessibility. I don't know if there's any kind of restriction that we can even put on that becatm~ that's County State Aid Road if ! remember. You can't eliminate them from using it pet se. Councilwoman Dockendorf: And if I could inlermpL Unless we have a market study tl~ shows where the customers will be coming from, how can Strgar say that timte is adequate infrastrucl~e to deal with i~ Mayc~ Chmiel: Well, that's part of th~ as well, you're rlghL Councilman Senn: Yeah, I mean the 98,000 square f~ in their assumption could be community commercial Community commercial would be totally different traffic patterns than regional commercial would be. And just Councilman Wing: This article in our packet, from the Mlssoula having to do with the Wal-Mart sto~e timt was denied to be built for two reasons. Number one, increased air pollution based on 10,000 trips per day to the store, 24 hours. Tra.~ increase of 12% and pollution levels exceeding federal stmulards. These are the questions I ask. Every time one of these come in I say, well wha~ are we going to do with the Iraffic and where are they getting the warn'. Maybe they're moot. I don't l~ve down here so I'll yield to you guys on these traf~ issues. They certainly need to be addressed. What are we doing with Ell these businesses and how are we going to get to snd from? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. One of the other things too is the te~__~nrant and I don't know what they're going to m for odors and how that's going to be ~ care of only because of the ~ ~ we've had problems existing with one of the res~aurams in town where it's jus~ a consum~ pain in the resklems' side because of the o(k~ and it's just not being taken care of or being addressed as it shoulcL I guess I can't add ~y mote than what we've already said here other than those few things that I did mention. Is llere any question Ittat Council still has tha~ they'd like to ask the applicant? Richard. Councilman Wing: Well I'm not sure where we're going here. Whether we're going to table this. If we do, I'm not sure why and what quesfims, and ff we do a study, who's going to do it and who's going to pay for it and what questions do we want answerecL But when this comes back, I talked to staff today about this and I want to really ~ this. Target, everything was supposed to meet Target stmxlards and we wrote a new landscape ordinance based on that and Paul do you know what the acreage, or maybe Bob. Bob, do you know what the acreage, parking acreage was at Target? Do you know Panl, just off hand? Bven roughly. Paul Krauss: No, it was a 10 acre site. It would have been 6 acres of parking. Councilman Wing: How much parking have we got I~re? How many acres, any idea? Paul Krauss: On Byerly's? Councilman Wing: .lust the parking Bob Generous: 207,000 square feet. Councilman Wing: Divided by 3.1517. I mean that wouldn't help me. 'Don't worry about it. It's not 42 Chanlmss~ Cit~ Council - I)cccm~ 13, 1993 Okay, whatever happens hem. If it's not passed ~m.~i_oht and comes back. We~l, I woukh't vo~ th~ way it is because Targ~ was a knee j~d~ ~ and w~ laik~ about he~ tslands and w~ mlb~_ ~ Tsrl~ ~0 trees md I don't see a lot of trees ~,er them. end a trench of ~ islsnds _~mt should have got a great big ~smt parking lot and i count 9 shade trees in ibc i~ lot, Target was our atmlard, comment is. mything o~ th~ soulh sid~ tlmt says Fm dwarf. ~ I~ ~ ~ sbsd~ tre~. Tlim tn fl~ linking lot I would edda minimum of 1.2. 3. 4. $. ~. 7. 8 mm~ ~ wi~ et least tl~ 3 ~ tf tl~ Imldng of ~ IXXa' pa~pl~ I~ Ih~ hill~ we're wm~icd alxa~ the od~ but yct we're goins to put in a h~at mekhtg think, this pazt~g lot h not designed to Tarlict'a mndards. Idm'tthinkitevmmanzourcadimm~ If~uu would rcally hold the linc oa that. V~j minnr changea. but I think a~Ja~4dly it'a ~ to wm~. And if them'a an mllmnmt tt'a going to block tl~ vlc~, I dm't ye4us from now I want to SO by mi~ and b~ abl~ to hav~ am~ mnblanm ff ahading m ~ ~ ~ Dm, not just a 19:50'a OlXm bca~ islancL I ~iak th,t'a my. Councilman W'mg: Oh, and ~ w~ don't want ~ight mndarda going up 15 ~ that a~ Fabled z~! li~ Target ~ith,'. I think Wal-l~rt has ~ iow. ~ ~ light amalarch in thdr padflng lot. I don't know' Councilman W'mg: Soaplmx, okay. don't have thc information so I think it mi_aht b~ useful to ask Ibc qu~ ~ Ibc c~ and see ~ ~ Festival? I~n Ashworth: In 1983. Councilman Senn: Okay. But I mean couldn't a losical extension of that at this point be to brin~ in that consultant that we already had do the mafl~ study s~l again I~et into a discussion with them in t_hnt_ work session of again the assumptions that went into that market study and you know potendnlly what typ~ of ~ could affect those assumptions that weren't considered nnd more specifically what would the next step be to really looking at something more from a tnnrket study standpoint. You know n/nth ne/th~ sro commitments to proceed but I mean at least I think we stnrt I~ettinI to n point where we tmdorstand it ~ and can jot to that clechion point. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I raked that question of Don regarding that nutrket study, which was as we'said done in '83. My question was, how much would it probably cost us to complete this. If I remember correctly you said probably about $10,000.00. Don Ashworth: The original one was $25,000.00 and I ckm't think you'd have to 8o to that extenL Poteaflnlly simply seeing ff we could bring thc individual in. If you'd like to ask questions. I don't know if they'd be able to respond. I mean the data's lO years old. I mean he may not even be alive. Councilman Senn: Well I think we could pose questions nt the assumptions they used and then determine a work course from there as to what we'd need to plug the holes I think in the assumptions between the old data and the new. I mean if nothing else it would help us develop a work pro/ram to ~o out sad ask them or other consultants to at least give us a plan. Don Ashworth: Mr. Maycr. That may be 8ood. I've suggested a special meetin8 date that we're going to talk about Utter in the asenda. I think December, I can't remember. Councilman Mason: ..,and why did I know this was going lo come up. Don Ashworth: Anyway, what I would do is I would invite in the County Engineer to talk about the t/astern Carver County Transpor~ion Study because fl~ deals with a 1o~ of the issues as it deals with County 17 and Kerber Boulevard and a lot of those, And it doesn't look like we're going to get to ~ nmsm' joint powers agreement with Cbnm~.Carver County. That would be excellent ff he were present to kind of talk about how that thing fit in as well I mean if you did that work session, or I mean that. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I put a note on mine to do this in January for a woflt sess/on. Councilms~ Senn: Yeah, I'm with the Mayor. Mayor Chmiel: Charlie. Charlie James: I'm deeply concerned aborn the tune of this meedn/this evening Mr. Mayor. First of all, there's all this talk about a market study and I really think that, I don~t know what the right word is. Is it moot or extraneous. I mean that's not what we're talking about here tonight We're _talking about a permitted use on a zoned piece of land. Byerly's has done two market stttdies. We didn't want to get into thi~ tonight. We've Sot maps and exhibits that show where all trade's cominl! from. This sort Of thing. We thought that the appropriate venue to discuss that was si the HRA meeting. Staff did send crar plans to Carver County. I'm sorry. Bob Generous: Sugar-Roscoe. Chanhasscn City Council - Decunber 13, 1993 Street to get bttilt. Now I get all the way up to the trough hem mM you're telling mc now we've ~ m ~ the universe. We've got to wait until the intermate freeway's complete out w the bm, ders of M~mmom ~r something. I mcan whcre do you draw thc linc? Youknowissneslike~~onKerber, thnt'sa~ matl~. Byerly'swouldbelmrfectlywimn_.otoagme. Notroclmwiildriv~upKertmrifthat'sacommm. ButI don't think it's fair to hold me to a higher stmulntd. Now ~ Senn said thnt in nxeny ~ they'd hav~ tnlldt~ ~ ~ mo if Fm ~ ~.om~tlmlltt hilt in overy ~onmmnntty thnt FV~ Wm4n"A_ in where ~'s ~ a ~ ~ ~ it's been in the pmcem for zmin~ You have to, ff tbeT'm Councilmnn W'mi: I didn't mnk~ thnt stntemem. Chnrli~ James: You said yon wn~'t sum if we met the ~ Councilman W'ms: The mdinance at the Target ~ *ttst we're tryin~ to ut~ I dm't see in tlds p~ lot. l'vc sot thc vote. l'vcgottherespo~tyandllmvetberi~httodtscussti~,questionitandaskfm'an impmvemmtff~'s~~ I don't have to vote for. Tellyouwhat. I'fl a~ee with you but I'm Bx~in~ to vote against the CUP because I ~'t ~ ~ m ~m ~ ~ ~ m ~ ~ ~ I Just tM~ it's worth looking at, that's all I've got a c/topic commems. ChadicJamcs: First of atl, wehaveS~. Imeantoshowyouwhffc~'~~~~m~ Or notStrgar. This Schrocd~feJlow. We hnd him look at this whole _~ing. T'nenforinstanc~~~~. CouncilmanV~ms: What' s it l~ to me, 'l'nisistimfirsttim~Fvene~nit. What's it got m do with me7 I undersumd what staff's don~ What's it got to do with my ecs~anm7 Charlie James: Well what your _c~mments we~ is theft you we~ seemed to be magesfing that there were some Councilman W'mg: And I feel that way. Cha,'~USCn City CouncU - December 13, 1993 Mayor Chmiel: Of course he's entitled to that opinion. Councilman Wing: I'll be happy to diacu~ it wi~ ~ and the archi~ stat yourself and see ff we can't jus~ a couple subtle changes. I'm not saying. Charlie James: Well I'm happy to work with you but I guess what my concern is, and I think if anythin~ that this process has shown here,, is that I have been happy to work with the city nmi if my record out hem shows anything, it shows Councilman Wing: And I told you I supixr, ed it. I'd ~ to see it go throu~ and I'm hung up on a couple other minor issues with Cmmcil. I think it's a gmat project, I think you've done a great job. I'm talking 5 more trees, I mean it's a minor point, I don't think we have to ~et hung up on that. It won't change the project one way or the other. I don't think that's the issue tonight, Charlle James: WeAl I guess what I sensed was the issue here was tabling of the IgOjeCt and I don't know if this is an apt analogy but there's been a lot more la, ins c~ here than __p~__ly apparent at the surface. It's kind of like a duck going across the ~ and he's kind of gliding effortlessly but his feet are going like crazy undmumith and that's the way I feel. Now I feel that I'm basically going to be ground swntted here. We tried to ~_~ressed thin~s. I mean there's sublties in he~ that I don't lbinir were even gone into. We tried to address, tho alv. hitect was given the 2002 things. The Highway 5 thins. This element here of these recessed panels in the trick came directly out of the comments about Tnrget and not having the big blank expanses of wall That's not a cheap detail. I mean we have really suetched and tried and it's just, I guess in a way I'm kind of flabbersasted that, I guess that's it. Councilman Mason: I sure hope this doesn't get tabled tonight, and I don't know that what, we. Il let's see what happens here. I think thc Eastern Carver County traffic study was done some time a~o. I've seen that. SRF, as we've just been told, has taken a look at this. Carver County didn't have a comment, SRF didn't have a comment Why, ff we bring in SRF or Carver County again are they going to have any comments that say we should or shouldn't do it? I have kind of the sinking feeling here th_hr_ this Council is ~etting known for, well let's table it until we can get all the facts. Well, then we'll table it again until we can ~ aH the facts. I heard earlier that this plan perhaps wasn't very well thought out, I see more detail in this plan than I have, I think this may be one of thc best plans I've seen come before me in my 3 years here. And I've Im~ the complaint,' this happened too fast It happened quickly but I also think one of the reascm we Sot it the way we got it and in the time we got it is because of thc behind the scenes time that staff has put into this along with the npplicant, If our only concern here is, I want to know specifically why people think this should be tabled tonisht nnd what we hope to accomplish by tabling it, I will bet you dollars to dollars right now ff it's u"affic, we're going to get Eastern County in here and we're going to get SRF in here and they're goins to say, well look at the studies that have already been done. It can be handl~ And I don't know quite honestly, I mean Richard is saying there's just some minor issues here that he wants cleared up. That's not worth tabling over. That can be done in 5 minutes or in half a day with staff. So I'm not going to make a motion yet because I think we need a little more discussion but what exactly do we hope to accomplish by tabling this? And I don't want this, I want to know exactly what we hope to accom?ish by tabling this tonight, I mean it looks like a good plan to me. Mayor Chnfie~: Okay. Councilman Senn: I think that's a fair question. Okay7 If you look at page 7. There's some basically issues Chanhas~n City Council - December 13, 1993 _es~m~, West Vln._.oe Heights. Oki, it wonld be 12.q,0~ square f~et of comnmcinl uses. Tho commm~y ~. I'm sorry b~ to me _~t~'s a I~ issue became it demmines whc~ yo~ ~ ~ commems beck arc t~t l-n.~w~ 5 and West 78th, whore it's bern upsrakd, a~ akqum m udo0 care of thh Powers, TH 101, nny of the other stme~s, erthe emtportionof?Sth, a~ mlequa~ to coN. it. It'sktndofltk~, Cou~ilm~ Wing: Tmf~ was an iss~ In $~ and the mutt question stys. is this going m ~ ~ m ~be F~umd welfare s~..produ~doa o~ uafl~ nolse, ~ fumes. Well 10~00 cnrs a dsy kt~t Wal-Mart out of Missy_dh_: Now I don't see that as an excuse to ~ this __toni~t but that just to me, Councilm~ Senn: I don't ~-d the m~ency qni~ fnmkly becanse I Ip~ess I'd lov~ to ~t into a ccaq~'ison with Mr. James and I'd ~ Mr. ~nmes to ~ me what ~ lxojects of 100.000 squm~ feet have giv~ you a much longer list that haven't been and stuff. In fact I'd really de~y yon to find on~ or two that Imve. I don't think there's nny dr. lny tactic here goi~ o~. I think we're doing o~ jobs nnd we'r~ trying to 8et adequate information to m~-,, a good publ~ policy ~ C. onn~von2n Docke~l~. Which is e. xnctly the tss~ ~ Senn: Well then the inf~'s evon mo~ ~.in_a because time's nowhn~ in yom' staff relmrt that nny of that's clarified. PanlKranss: We clsrifled it to lhe exlm~ we could fight lbem. Imananw~a~talkinsalx~ut, all_am!-..hth~ second building. Not even what' s in the second lmikfin~ Justth~factthitthu~isasecond~ Cotmcilmnn Senn: Well. I Ip~ess whnt I'm ~ is ns one of the Council ~ Fd ~ m ~ ~ ~ Chanhassen City Council - Decemb~ 13, 1993 · information and I'd like to see the traffic informalion on ~ and TH 101. On the east pm of 78th. On Powers. Again, I haven't seen anybody here t~lidng that that's in place. That the systems are there and can maybe handle it. Paul, it's the same argument... Paul Krauss: Well...because this Council sal through $ or 6 meetings ~ SRF over the past 2 years where eagh one of these questions was examined in detail. Mark is raisinl~ a valid point. I mean ~ has to do with trip dislribulion and SRF made some assumptions but their assumptions w~re based on Target They came in concurrently with the Target and you know when you're lalkinll about a regional user, they were basinll some of their assumplions, tallying the final design of 78~h $1reet with wlw Target was l~oing to demand. I couldn't ten you with certainty that the trip distribution would account for a Byerly's... We did m~_~ some assumptions based on havinl~ a nm-local commercial on 78th Street. Councilman Senn: On ?Sth StreeL You just said it again. How about on all the othe~? Paul Krauss: All the others have turning movements. The~'s a loug Imm plan for the comple~ of 78th Street improvements. They gave the Council some options as I recall as to how much of thc project do you wahl to bite off now. They gave some schedulin8 or an assumption on when you needed to do those improvements. Tha~ was all laid out. Councilman Senn: That was before there was two, I mean ~ was b~ore Target. That was before. Councilman Mason: No, it was concurrent. Councilman Senn: I know but it was before Target was in place and now, I mesh it did no~ assume a By, fly's or a Wal-Mart or whatever across the street Charlie James: Yes it did. Councilman Senn if I could clarify. I met ~y with Denny Byler. I mom · Denny. Councilman Mason: Yeah, he's Denny Eyler. Charlie James: Denny Eyler and Jim Dvorak and the city had some meeting at the fire hall at one time when Target was going in and they were looking, well whal are the best siles for everybody to go on in town here. Unfonunalely I was out of town on business during that meeting but afterwards I was at Strllar-Roscoe's offices over in Plymouth and they asked me this. They said whai are you goin~ to do with your plan? What do you anlicipale doing with that? And ai that time I had three I think of the four calls I've had from Wal-Mart on this property and from day one, from the first time I ever walked into City Hall here we've planned to have a shopping center out there. So Sugar had thai infcammflon based on what I mid them was my an~ipaled uses were so. And again, as far as the conditional use permit, I think one of the things. I'm lakinll a ~ in saying this but I think pan of the lxoblem is tonight, maybe mo is thai maybe you're used to having more issues to deal with and maybe I'm getling a back handed compliment freight. I'd like to think so. And ~ is ~ we've Irled to anticipaIe everything. Thai conditional use permit came as a surlxise. We have worked so closely w~ mff and identified every issue and said how can I improve lifts project? Whal can we do? What are lhe concerns? Talk to everybody. How can we ~ tiffs belier? How can we make this beaer? Be~r malm'l~. Better whatever and so what we have befcee you tonight is a project thai you're just, I mean we're mlkinll about u'affic out here on county highways and stale highways because we can't find anything to sink our teeth into here. I mean so, I don't know. You know, I don't know whether thal's I~ood or bad. Maybe we should add some red 48 City Cotmcil - I)ecem~ 13, 1993 hming so you could have gottem...nnd ~n_~d, o~ my god. We can't do that Clmdie. AndFd~o, ohoko,. I ~ss I woa't, But I mean the point ~ we'v~ u'ied m wndt ~y m this thin~ md have a great twoject the law says _u~_~n~Hy 5~ but we want the Tarl~ mndsrd. Wo excemled Ihe ~ Mmldmd Dick. · Coun~nanWing: Cnnladdmssthntwhn~you'redone? ldon'twnnttolweakyour~ Be~m~ you sit down I want to talk 1o it. Chsdie Jntn~ Well I1o ahead. Chnrlte James: And coney Dick, this isn't my first iwoject, rv~ don~ almost 100 Inujecls. Councilman W'ms: But I'm lenrning mo~ sad mere. Cha~ James: I'm leamia8 a~ try~8 to 8e~ bem~ mo, okay. something or anothers. We're lookin~ f~r trees Chaflie so ff the ~ is so ~ to yin, ~ my ~ now we've got this enormous heat l.~.a nnd ff Pemr Olin snd his staff w~e ~ they could talk very inleJle~mtly oa what this means to the city. I'm only ~ ~ with almost no tlmugl~ wtltumt any thesamm~. NotS0%. 80%. Ijusttlfiakmme~~andifyou'rewmriedabout~8%,wall thru you talin 4% frmn ~ ~ m~ it into Ihe ~ lot. l'm jast raying I know mmagh md i~'s my inmost and I'm ~ enough about this thatI don't think the sro. hitch's dine the job that I Ihink he slmuld doasa~. Idon'tcnmwhatmaff_d~d_- Idm'tcnmwhntthecmsultnmsaidnndldnn'tcnmif tuning nnd if thnt menns tabling it fern w~k to get thnt brick on tl~ tnble, I ~ht~ thnt's to ~ ~'s ~ Chanhassen City Council - Decemb~ 13, 1993 Councilman Wing: What's out front? Charlte Sames: The~ are a mixtm'e of rn~ple. Councilman Wing: Can you just tnll~ about the parking lot7 Just the parking lot. I undermand. Charlie I'm tailing you, k's a beantiful job. I have on complaints. Just tell me about the parking lot. Is there any shading in the parking lot itself~ Is there anything to block the heat nmi to cut down on the heat island effect to the city of Chanhmsen like we forced on Target? 50 s~___de_ trees went into the central parking lot of Target. Not perimem'. Not flowexing crab Irees. Every single flowering crab tree in the parking lot was changed to an ash. 50 ash went in in place of. Chartie Jnmes: Dick, we have over 50 trees per acre. Councilman Wing: Talk about just the parking lot. Charlie James: Alright but. Alright. Councilman Wing: Tiro'o's 9 trees in the lin'king lot. CharUe James: Well we've got ovetstcry maples here. Along this edge and we've got ~ maplea defining ~ the edges. We've got overstory trees in the middle ~ So we've got a tow here, row he~, tow here, row here, row here, row here, row here, tows here, row here. Some over here. Councilman Wing: Charlie, just the parking loL Just the b~acktop stttfa~ of the parking IoL You've got it outlined beautifully. As the sun come~ down and the temperatme goes to 120 clegtees and the people up in the kill have to turn up their air conditioning, the heat in the city cnn go up 10 degrees in the sununer in a city that doesn't stm't to treat it's parking lots as heat islands and environmental threats. That's where I'm driving this from. That's why I'm trying to force the issue that we have to start _,dmd_ _lug the parking lots. You don't just pave them over for your convenience and then put Ixuking spaces in. They have to be designed environmen,n,y. I'm just, it's beautifully architectural but you're missing my point on the shading in here and frankly, cut me off ffthis is. Councilwoman Docke~: I'll cut you off because you are off on a nxl herring both of you. I think it's a simple issue that both of you will be satisfied with thc answer. Just change around a couple trees. I don't think it's a huge financi~ aspect. If I could put my two cents in about what the two big issues are. Is the market study. Whether we do that or not and the u'af~ study and I guess if you're telling me that, I mean Mr. James and Paul, ff you're teRing me that Strsar took what Mr. James was going to be putting up. Not necessarily a Byerly's but a large commercial center and Target into consideration when it did it's traffic studies and that they were adequate, then I'U be satisfied with that issue. When we talk about the market survey or study, I'm not certain where I sit on that issue. I don't see it as the city's responsibility and yet I do have a concern. I mean I'm really up in the air about it because I don't see our ~ility as being deciding what types of businesses cnn com~ in the city. $o I guess I'm with you Mike in terms of I'd like to dispose of this issue tonight. Not because I just want to get rid of it but because I don't think that we can discover a lot more information if we go to a work session or ff it gets tabled. Would you like to address the first issue on the parking? Or excuse me, on the uaf~. 5O Cotmcilman Senn: I'dlil~tohc~rP~mladdr~mit. He still hun't told us d~_ th~__'s been done. Councilwoamn ~ Okay. 'l'nat's whatlwamedtohenr. COHf~_ lmnn S~n'- ABd m nH [tl~gt~t~ Paul Kmuss: Mm~ I'm re_~ntlng to you exnctly what wns...We dlrb~'t mk specifically is tiffs going to increase the ratio of trips on TH 101. They made scn~ asaumptiom boldly about who's going to be drawn Io downlmvn. whether~'reidenticaltoaB~y's, l don't know. Bnttngmmsqum~foomge, they mid we're flne. ~ney Cotmcilman Senn: Appa~tly squm foom~ PlmlKran~_: Andme. Imennwetoldthemwhatthenseswonldbe. CouncihnanMasom I remember that, asan~q_t~offncl. Iwastherefcrallofthoseralh~~~ so I cmcur with, I mean I remember. Well we got $RF in becm~ we we~n't plmsed with' the wodt t~t hnd Mayor Chmiel: Okny. I think we're going at a smlmu~ h~ and L then tltrc wottld be a middle band of u~s going across thet lot. Isthntareasonab~requt~ Do~s~_tcutout thclmrkinglot7 Doestt~tdestroyanything~doestt~n~aHu~n~m~we'maftn~ We'dhave PanlKrauss: T'nisiswh~relmoveit~oBob. Bob's lmm w~idng m that, Bob Generous: 'I'nat~beworked~I~ rmsm, Ilmmght~~toMichazlSchroed~atthe time and said wottldn't it be better ff w~ ~ a largn' ~ ~ of lmving these ~ ~ ~ ~ 51 Council - December 13, 1993 concun~ with having the larger ones. And so that's how come we went with that direction. Our initial review was this. Let's make and put an island in each row. Councilman Wing: Well I would request that ff we 8o any further and also, all the southern trees that say RC and SC, those should be overstmy shade trees also. 'l'nen I would have no fimlm' cmnmmts ou this. Mayer Chmieh AlrighL Dan I'U, could you come up here and I'!1 give you a minute. Oetttng ready Dan Bex, lmian: Thank you for letting me speak again. At the Planning Commission meeting I brousht up some concerns. Some of the similar concerns I brought up this evening about the safety of our children in the parks. At that time Diane Harbem said that they were go/ns ID reconunend, she made a motion to recommend this ss apfroval to City Council with some exceptions. One of them was to fiBure out how this would impact our park systems and I was hoping that after we closed the public hearing that we would hear some convemttiou ou th~ and I have not heard that. I haven't heard anything. I guess that's the main reason I don't want to see this proceed tonight, unless somebody's got some answers for me. I would be appalled to think that we're Iloins to throw the safety of our children and parks out the window because of the hour. I don't think that's right, Councilman Mason: I guess I've got to call you on tha~ one Dan. I've I~ot two kids of my own that play al ~ park, and to think that we're going to wn~-- a decisiou tonight is totally disregardinll the safety of anyone I think is a disservice. Now I understand your conce~'ns. Well, I hope I do. Dan Beckman: I'm talking about Kerber. Councilman Maso~ I drive down Kcrbcr every day. I llve in the same neck of Ihe woods you do. So regardless of what happens, I mean something. You know something is Iloing to go the~e. Chanhassen is getting busier and busier and whereas I'm concerned of the safety of our children, it is also parents n~sponsibility to make sure that those children stay safe too. So I hear what you're sab, ing but don't say because of the lateness of the hour we're throwing thc safety of ci~l~ out the window because _th~__'s not. Dan Beckman: It wasn't brought up. h wasn't discussed. Mayer Chmieh Paul. Paul Krauss: After the Planning Commission raised this, Bob sat down with the Public Safety Director and there is a letter in your packet from Scott Haft. If you want to summarize that. Bob Generous: We requested them to look at that very point and he said, while there would be immmses in traffic, the traffic will be going north on Powers, Kerber will find themselves i~oing through a school speed zone which is poslcd at 20 mph when children are prcsent, which wc aggressively enforce. So the whole tone of his response was they didn't f~resce that 5ein8 a problem. Dan Beckman: I hcard the figure of 10,000 trip8 put day. Councilwoman Docke~: They aren't going down Ketber. Councilman Senn: I haven't seen any ~ numbers. 52 Jonatlmn and a lot of people _comlnS tixroush Omnlmssen... May~Chmtel: Alright. Iwould, th~timotsfnstfloetingandFmgoingtonskfornmotion. Mayor ~ Synonymmm as far as Fm c~ncesned. Coont~mmWing: I'm not ~ug to ~mlog~ for our vm:~sting or our ht~il~lm imm. I lhink it's our job. I ~ use pennit for the By~rly's mp~nm~u~ with ooe clumll~ to the cmdilioos, m~lI don't know whit number thru would put in. gives Bob euthorlty to telk to the Tree Boerd to nud~ ed~e~men~ out m the ~ to cluster ~r mduc~ Councflmm ~ I'n s~ond ~ Councilmm Mamn: Prmn ~S mmh on Kn'ber BoulevmL $3 Chanhasse~ City Council - December 13, 1993 Mayor Chmiel: Right. That's ccrrecL Councilman Wing: I'H accept that ns a friendly motion. Councilman ~m I will second that also then. Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Site Plan ~"~3.7 dated IN~s~nb~r 7, 1993, and the Conditional Use Permit ~3-1 ~o permit the aroupina of buildings on one building lot, subject to the foUowln~ eondMons: 1. The applicant shall be required to provide a revised landscape plan for City approval. The plan aball include the following: The applicant shall provide interior landscape islands in the parking lot areas. In par~cular, landscape islands measuring approximately ,30 1S feet by 40 38 feet (two parking stnlls wide by two deep) shall be provided for every other aisle of face-to-face parking (minimum of fltree'interlor planting islands). These islands shall contnin a minimum of three ovemm'y trees nmi they shall be nl~nated with the tree groupings to be provided at the perimeter of the site. An n~ation~rri~lion system consisting of perforated PVC pipe or other flexible tubing in a looped system with at lenst two risers extending above the planting mn'face shall be designed and inslnlled as part of these planting islands (see attached Figure 11=3). b! order to continue thc trcc planting theme begun in the Oak Ponds townhouse development located nm~ of this development. In crder to more effectively screen the development from residences to the north, thc trees should be placed close~' to the top of the slope, as opposed to near the bottom of the slope where they have virtually no effect on screening. Spacing of conifers should be tea (lO) feet to allow. them to grow together in a more solid mass at a younger age. As at oth~ areas of the site, these trees should be placed strategically in groupings to increase their effectiveness as a buffer and to lend a ~ natural feel to the planting. The use of mor~ ~dm-mM~ planting materials may be wamml~l to aclticv¢ bett~r long=term sc~ning for th~ developmenL also add to summer landscape, but use of more flowering shrubs in combination with the evergreen shrubs would be appropriate. The plan should consider the use of more shrubs and pererma~, (such as d. Altemate ground cover such as smnac shall be used alons the steep grade to the ~. Thesteepnen of the I~nde preclude~ the mowing of this sodded area. (crabapple, hawthorns or japanese tree lilacs) in planting areas near the building would add interest and color to the expanse of watl, especinlly at the front of the building. Care should be exercised in 54 Chanhan~ City Council - December 13, 1~3 h~ mo cen~ (Kerber lkmlevard). 'I'ne Ciys plans for West 78th.Street straw a lanmmmnt imdsca~ easmnent (eight fuot q, picai) at ~ ~ alonS W~ 7Sth Su'eec The ~ p~ ~ a~ p. oject cai'8. o. AH planting areas must Imvc an ~ system inmlled. 55 Chanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 o o , e a 10. 11. 12. 13. ,!1 the southern hcin~ shrubs, or anythin8 labeled RC, SC be chnsed to overstory and that idso ~ives Bob authority to talk to the Tree Board to make adjustments out on the boukvard to duster or reduce those nmbers ~ trees to improve dsht lines, The screen wall located at the eastern tear of the building shall be extended to the be~rmtn~ of the radius of the club. A sidewalk sluttl be provided from West 78th Street to the retail center along the western entry drive, east or the eommerctal/omce building, into the de~ent. As a condition of site plan approval, the applicant shall be required to enter into a develolnnent contract with thc City and provide the necessary financial security to guarantee compliance with the conditions of aplxoval. The applicant shall bc responsible for applying and obtaining the necessary permits for the City's Building department f~r the installation of the site improvements. The applicant shall enter into an encroachm~t agreement with the City for bermin8 and hndscapin~ over the City's drainage and utility easement along the west side of I/edser BoulevanL The applicant will also be respons~le for adjusting the existing sanitary manholes to the new grades. The applicant shall remove the fourteen parking stalls in front of the retail site directly west of the supemutfl~t. In order to mn~ up for lost parking s,n,, as a result of chan~es to the site plan, compact parking spaces may be used. The applicant will be responsible fcr fiffnishing nnd installing the appropriate wa_mc control signs nmi pavement mnrkings through~t the site. Thc turning radii at the driveway access points along ~ Boulevard should be expanded to 20 feet. The turning radius for thc service drive located in thc northwcst corncr of thc s/te should be expanded to accommodate large semi-trailer accommo~n_fiom with a wheelbase of 50 feel The applicant's engineer shah supply City staff with detailed mann drainage calcula~ons fo~ the entire site. Storm sewers shall be designed to handle a lO-year storm event. Additional catch basins may be needed after review of thc storm water calculations. Thc rcta/l building ~ located in the southwest cortez of the site plan should be lowered by a minimum of five feet. The applicant shall provide the City with a $10,(X)0.00 financial security to guarantee in~ of the curb An erosion control plan shah be developed and incoq~ into the site plan and resubmitted for City staff review and approval. Staff recommends implementing the City's Best Management Practice Handbook for the plnn design as weal ns site restorations. The northerly back slope behind the building should be festered with an erosion conu'ol blanket. Phns should also employ erosion control measures around ~ catch 56 Chnnlznsaen City Council . Decetn~ 13, 1993 provided to the Colnmbd0~ I thousht thttl sboaJd add this as a condition.) 16. The applicant shall work with SW Mela~ Trmtdt to ioeaae a ires transit stop area m-dM, 19. No overnisht parkin~ od' rerrilaratim unit Unstts and/or trdkra 20. No use of trash compaction equlpmmt between 10:00 P.M. and 6:30 A.M. A nMewnlk Is to be provided ft*t~ Wq~ 78~h Slgr'eet ti) the dellcltod ~ Tile IDDrOBwJfIM tht of the main bufldinl. Prigr tO deveJopm~.or the outb~ the applicant dudi come beck to ~be Pl~nninn Commbsion rm. archltectm'al review or the buBdimr's duhm. Applicant shah wgrk with VtsJff 9a ghe da lithtinf. Paridmz lot llsthttmz may be no ldsther than the main buildin~ The ~ ~ rot the development dan come back to the Pinnnina Comndsdm for Thd~ INlbii¢ Safety Dim:mr iS tO Drovide ll)eclflc ~ to die City Comidi (m the curb cuts and truck tramc on Kerber Boulevard. ~ n~Im ~ by msde or the tru~ tmPp~ en Dark me ~ th~ hgars of 4:00 and 9:.00 PM. .The applicant is renueminn to revistt the hjlldl~DDed ~ with Mart. ~)ed~i~Y, the IIDDIJCBAt to look kM, the opportnit~ od' DrovldJnn sixteen tiff) foot bandksqpped ~ stuns. 27, No semi ~ Ws~c be alk)wM, qz) travel norfh on Kerber Boglevu~. Al! voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opptmd, and the motkm ~ ~ a ~ ~ 4 m L Councilman W'm$: Andjustaqnickc(nmem. laortb~flrsttin~Iwouldcc~tyournovom lthad .21. 57 Chanhassen City Counc;;- December 13, 1993 Chartic James: Mr. Mayor, I'd just h'kc to also pledge my co~ to support...~ !d_~tifics. As flu' ns I'm concerned it doesn't end here. Xt doesn't end until we have a project that everybody's happy with so we'H continue to work with staff to set... PLANNED UNIT DEVELQPMRNT TO R~Z0NE 8~.~ A~R~ AND 1~_ R.UMINARY ~].,AT PROPO~AL TO SI~BDIVlDE ~0~8 INTO 134 ~INGLI~ FAMYI.Y LOT~ AND 7 QUTLOT~, TIIR. PROPERTY IS LOCATED JUST SOUTH OF LYMAN BOULEVARD, EAST OF HIGHWAY 101, AND WF_~T OF LAKE RILEY BOYLEVARD; DOLKJSI AND ROGERS PROPI~TY. LUNDG_~J~N BROTHERS. Public Present: Name , Ad_dress Del Smith Leslie Tidstrorn Alan Dirks R.H. & Cherie Peterson Peter Pemrick Jim Dolejsi 9051 Lake RUey Blvd. 9203 Y-*~ Riley Blvd. 9101 Lak= Riley Blvd. 9260 Kiowa Trail Bob Generous: The applicant is requesting a PUD so that he can use thc flexibiUty in our zoning ordinance to shift around the common lot sizes while nuttnmining an average lot consistent with the city's goals nmi minimum requirements. This development is in the southwest corm~ of Highway 101 and Lyman Blvd. Or southeast of Lake Riley, TH 101 and Lyman Blvd. It consists of 134 lots. It will be developed over six stages. It's currently an existing farm site. Farm land. The Comp Plan has designated for low density residential which would permit 1.2...per acre. The subdivision, the grndlu8 plans for...similar to other residential subdivisions. Providing NURP ponds...storm water treatment. They're requesting ri~ht-of-way widths for internal roads for 50 foot right=of= ways and 60 foot is required. He's providing ~d_i~onal fight-of-way for Lake Riley Blvd. and for Highway 101 and Lyman Boulevard. The project is within the MUSA line. however they are not currently sufficient calmcity for the entire project. There's a project feasibility study on that issue to put water service in. 't'ney're proposing dedications of approximately 5.3 acres of partlnud to the city. Staff is recommending approval of... Recommend denial of thc variance request for side setbacks. Mayor Chmiel: Great. Who's going to. Patti Krauss: Maybe we ought to ex?nlq what the Planning Commission action was. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, yeah. I was going to ask a question. Why was denial given the first time on thiS? Bob Generous: Thc Planning Commission recommended denial on both the preltmtrmry PUD and lite preliminary subdivision because they weren't sure that it justified being a plmmed unit developm~ nor were they all that excited about the large number of smaller lot sizes. 'Even though those lot sizes were consistent Councilman Senn: Clnrificnliorc PUD requirements or our o{dinnnce req~ents? I thought it was consistent with our ordinance requirements regardless of PUD. 58 59 Chanhass~ City Council. ~b~ 13, 1993 Paul Krauss: Yeah. Originally we had proposed, in fact the developer has shown, the connection Io Kiowa Trail, which Kiowa was supposed to be connected. We think long term it should probably be connec~ but the residents in the first meeting raised a concern that much of the traffic in southern ~, Io Highway 212 act~mlly trail and that Kiowa is kind of a short cut to get down to Pioneer and we went back and forth about it and said they're probably right. In the short term that may in fact occur. So we mid we agree and at least the Planning Commission find it so that the issuo should come back up wl~n 212...Tbe matt~ of acc~s to Lak~ Riley Boulevard is one that we've always referred to. That came out of a conce~ from the Fire Marshal who pointed out that there's been 3 fires in recent years on Lake Riley Boulevard. That because of tho street width. Because of it's narrowness, became of the closeness of the houses, it's very die, cult to fight fires in there and they would, they asked us to come up with another access that would short circuit the vm'y long dead end street. To provide anothe~ means in and out to the ~ half. We, as staff said fine. If that m_._t.~ some sense and we went ~ put that as a col~dition to the first and second meetil~. Now Bob, ! don't recall that tho p[armin~ Commission ac.m~lly took action on that...clenisl of the plat. Bob Generous: The only motion to approve has the cul-de-sac going down Kiowa instead of bein~ automatically reverted to opening up after 212...but they have the Lake Riley Boulevard connection in and I believe that's one of the reasons that Brian didn't vote for it. But the rest of them were 'mostly concmu~ about the lots. Terry Forbord: Your Honor, members of the City Council. Terry Forbord, 935 East Wayzata Blvd in Wayzata. A little bit of background. As you know Lundgren Bros has a couple of future proposed neigh~ communities north of Highway 5. Those are planned unit developments that are in an area that either have slm~p terrain, are heavily wooded, have a s~t nmotmt of wetlands nnd as a result of that are vory ex, ye subdivisions to develop. They nvernse close to 1 unit per acre in those subdivisions and some of you may remember those ns the $ohnson/l~lejsi/Turn~ and Song properti~. Because of those, types of physical characteristics, those neighborhood communities are very expensive to develop. Lundgren Bros, in it's pursuit.of trying to find some more moderate housing to be able to develop in Chanhassen was looking for a site that didn't have those types of characte~tics. In other words, in today's environment, ff you find a flat piece of ground with no trees and no wetlands it will be easier to lxoduce more moderately or more affordable type of housing. Due primarily to the ordirmnc~ that ali cities today have that...This piece of property was purchased or optioned by Lundgr~n Bros in a competitive sittmflon. I think it's fair to say that both ~ owne~ and this is an assembly of two separate properties. We'll get into that in more detail in a bit but a competitive situation with I would guess at least 4 and possibly 6 other buyers. And the sellers fortunately selected us. One of them is going to be living there and they hoped...something that they would be comfortable with. And secondly, our ability to perform. But the primary nmson for us being there was we were able to provide mor~ moderate priced housing in Chanlmssen due to the physical chnrac~ of the land. It's been a lengthy process because we immediately, as we always do, stsrt meeting with staff right away and we also knew that Baudimere Park, which is immediately to the south, had plans for future development and We even expl~ the oppnmmity with staff that maybe we should be doing some land swapping. Maybe the site that We have would be better as a Bandimere Park versus the site they had. And there was some intmv, st from staff's side and some interest on our side and we found out, due to the physical constraints of the land, due to TH 101, and the pipeline that runs through this property, that it actually would have been more detrimental to do that land swap from our perspective than if we just proceeded as we had already planned. That took n little bit of time but we were able to at least get...with staff. As we always do, we hsd neighbcrhood meetings with the sutmumti~ property owners. I think that it's fair to say that the majority of the property owners in the area support our plan. At le~t that's what it has appeared to me at the neighborhood mee~nEs and the phone calls that I have ra:eiv~ and {supm~ like tim fo~ you. I will ~ you a mMi~ias of a smdmi mhdivistm os the~ two ~ mi this you had your druthers, you'd lxohbly IBftr a difftm~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 'l'n~~ I ~ ~ m you, I beJieve it n~m~,nts 146 1o~ AIl the~ lots meet the city ordimmce u ~ u ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Planaing~. Now thlsisnnextremely~waytodm~oPlm~m~. Notjust~in~_n~"~{ng sa~ets~{~this. It'avery~forsurv~wmk. My eost of demm~mtn{ per lot wouid be l~s on ~mis ~yan~matpc~b~muchmart~p~p~ Aai~~~~~~ 'rnn~wssa mmesize. Wcdon'twnntthemallthemnuslmpe. Andwe~ydm'twnntnnyofl~slteetslobe pause fo~ a moment and look at it. When you drive tluuush a sabdivis~n li~ this a~. they're emmnntly ts posi~ a Itulc differcut ou each lot. Now wlmt this mables us m do, uot o~dy does it create a street scape home is looking f~ these types of vari~ Sometimes ~ want a littte hrsm' lot and we lmve a huller lot JohnUban: I v/dl do that to my best abllity. Wluard~m~~~~i. whyaPt~andwtms~e 61 risht-of-wny nround ~ ~ of the lxoperty. We lmve ~ fu~ lxopos~ ID dodlm~ ovur 3 acru of land to the city fer H]ghwny 101. Tnisisnotnm:efsarily~ ~~aoven'4ncresforLynumBlv~ way. Othn.~w~'vedmxeinPlymomh,~~ 12qL. Andthu~wenlso, it'smTH 101. (~nnty roads in~ nnd we enly had 12~ of thnt snbdJviskm as risht-of-wny. So this 10 to 12 to 13~ is typicnl noisiest ~m ~ 101. Thn~'s a~ _thtlloes ~ the ar~a and we've clmsm, alth°ullh w~ all of that ~ is towards TH 101. We've also dedicamJ, ~ to dedJcn~ 5.3 ncruofp:khnd. Tnis off of Lnk~ Riley Boul~flird. We do not think thnt's ~. Itmnlly eliminn~_ m~ of our iots which really under 15,000 sqmre feetbut th~'rebesicallym the~. Many ofthem al~ lik~ 14,000. Just~ our avemge lot size is 18,fi(X}. Tne~dfnxs~is 1.Ttmilsperacrt TnJsisnotdmst 'l'nisislp'vlngyoua nmounts of dq~ to thc normal 130 fxx~ ~. So th~ ~ is here thnt yon don't Set with a ~ snbdivision. ~y we havm't plnced nny lots ftions Lnin~ RilL"Y Blvd so thero's no hom~ ~ out mtto this artt We've tried to ncct~_ _modnt~ all the needs of the mJjncent neighlxnX, doing it in a v~ry crmlivo ~. Puttins it throush the PUl) process that rudly brings f(rth the dmllln thnt's much ~ thnn a grid type why you have the PUD. To ~l~kind~~ ~m ~~ ~~ ~ m h~~ 62 Chanhassen City Council - Dece.~ber 13, 1993 we'r~ asked to put one in. Number 17. We do not want to connect to Lake Riley Boulevnrd. We do not feel that it enhances thc fire and safety issues significantly on I.nke Riley Boulevnrd. In fnct, to really meet that demand you have this pass thru finger of prolm~ that goes to the south that d/rectly connects the very end of Lake Riley Blvd. If you really want to complete that cul-de-sac and get rid of it, let's put 'a pass thru trail or small road on this parcel and get fid of the cul-de, sac altogether. But bringing it through over he~ would be more expensive. It takes out a lot and would not improve the safety...Number 18. We just cannot continue to have more and more of this land eaten up by fight-of-way. Number 18 requests that we build aH the roads to 60 foot fight-of-ways. Once again, if we do that, it goes to 25% of the subdivision would be fight-of-way an'd if you add the park, over 31% of the subdivision would be for public purposes. We think there's a/rent benefit to us giving you, extending the right-of-way for TH 101 because you can use it in your dealings with the State other highway improvements, especially those that affect ~ intersection. And so that will not be given to the State, but be given to the city ins~ Number 26. Merely that the W~ grstin~ cut off would be changed to November 15th, and we requested that previously. And number 32. The request for ~k~__itional trails. We do not believe that nddifional trails, although there will be tn/Is on Bighway 101, Lymnn, to Bandimere Park, lead to this trail through here. That having us build other UaHs, especially that along West 92nd which is fight here off the propmy, doesn't make sense and it just is askin~ for more and me~ trails aH nmund the perimeter, through it and next to it on other property. So we would like that pnrticular requirement be stricken. But we'd be ~ to answer any questions. I think Terry has a few comments to mmmsdze our design. Thank you. Terry Forbord: Your Honor, at this time why don't Mr. Utm~ and I just try to nddress any questions that the City Council may have. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. And before we do that, it sppears as though there's quite a few people sitting here this evening. Let's see ff there's any comments tim may want to be provided this evening. Bob Peterson: Good evenin/, or good morning. I'm Bob Peterson. I live at 9101 Lake Riley Blvd which would be over in this vic/nity r/iht here. First of aH I want to compliment Lundgren Bros because I think they did a very nice job of presenting it to the neighboflxxxl before we ~ any Planning Commission meetings. They did an excellent job of telling us what it's aH about. We appenred at the Planntng Commission meeting and we nppeared primarily in opposition to the access to l-~e Riley Boulevnrd. What we were kind of blind sided by was the fact that there was cpposi~n to the plan. We didn't realize that at the time and I'm here to tell you that, people I've talked to in the neighborhood are very much in favor of it. We think that Lundgrm would be a very good neighbor. We think that they will do a very fine job of developin/this pmlm~ and we'd like to see this plan go ahend because I am concerned about substituting that with this kind of a concept. I think that'd be very detrimental and not at all spprolxiate. This would be much more cohesive. It'd be n much beaer development of the property and would certainly protect and preserve the ~ in a way we want to see it developed. So I would strougiy encotu'a~e the npproval of this plnn. Thank you very much. Mayor Chmieh Is there anyone else? Alan Dirks: Hello. My name is Alan Dirks. I live npproxin~tely right here. 9203 Lak~ Riley Blvd and I've been in the nrea for about 10 yenn and my pfimnry concern, and I've _mlu~ to stnff sbout thru. About the nccess to Lake Riley Boulevard but a couple of things I guess as...pointed ont is that, if you take this area from Lyman Bird intersection to where they want to bring this access in, there's 11, or excuse me. There's 14. No, 63 there's 11. 'rnere's 111Hnes between this point nnd hem alon~ :~- ~ ~mlevngd that th~ fu~l ~'v~ lot to get this...mfety for. But beyond that thn~'s 14 hotn~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 3 ~ ~ ~m 12 mtw. h, thn'e's 54 ~ in those homes. My real concern ts that they're myln~ they're d~inl ~!~ fur lmb~ it'sdevelop~ l'm very much in fav~r of the wa3r ~ has put lt togeth~. ~_~n~ofcounethe MRy(r ChmieJ.' Ailyono cruising down through this d~.Jopmm~t and going down K]owa Trail ~ I tlfink ~~ my get somebody out in tl~ sl~'t a ~ of time ns having a wlm~ flw msck down d~_: And I think flm~'s a were prolms~g to lmy the ~. We utn~d_ to mff ~ stone of the diffmmt d~.lopen and wlmt th~ w~ze going to develop both ~ together, and we saw that ns a mtl bent~ lo not only the city butto the Chsnhas~n CiEt Council - ~ber 13, 1993 considering, they certainly couldn't choose one over the other but they said Lundgren seemed re~:mable. And we saw Lundgren as having a high probability of success in this project ~nd we thought that was impm'tant, not only for ourselves but to the city and to the community around because to have a half developed development and the developea' runs out and the landowner has problems. The city has problems. It's a no win. 'l'ne developer has problems. Nobody wins in that s~mfinn. Right now ~ho ~ is bein~ used fur fanning. It's the Carver County Soil Commission basically has desi~na~d it as hi~ly...~ and for the last about 4 ~r 5 years I've been working off and m with them: They've been giving you a recommevanfltms for how ~o chan~e my agricultural ~. I stopped the practice of..-~ shopped ~he prac~ of eyre chisel plowins in ~e last couple years. I've put in some bermi~ on some walerways to try ~o minimize crosim but they ~ have. erosion and I know every time there'S a bi~ rain, the city 8e~s calh. I never set called unfomma~ly but, ~r fortunately. But I tbinlr this, and I know the nei~hbm~g property has the ssme problem. And this devel~ent win help alleviau: some of those l~oblems. I can furthcr state thsl some of ~he other develqmrs that were planning on developing my property, singularly, they were mllrln~ about coming to g~e city with a PUD and proposing 150 units on the $0 acre site and they were ~llri~g about along ttishway 101, very ~h density. Perhaps townhomes or q~ or something and I'm not saying that would have gotten by the city. That that would have flown but I'm saying there's very different perspectives on wha~ PUD would get in front of the city depending on what developer would have Ixou~ht it in. And I think Lundgren is doin~ a, I've not hesrd at sny, I've been to the neighborhood meegngs. I've been to the Planning' Commissi~ meetings and I've no~ hesrd people say that they think it's a bad plan ~ the neighboring people. I've not heard any opposition m the plan. The only opposi~n I've heard is to ~he thru streets and various minor ~hin~s but in geaeml people are supportive of the development and tl~'s what we hear as neighbors, because we're planning on staying. We're planning on living on this property and it's very important, l'd li~ to msintain the community ~ with the neighbors and that so, ~hank you fc~ having me. · May~ Chmich Thanks. Anyone else? If not I'll, are you going to say something there Terry or just let it go back to the people to see ff they had any comments. Were you going to say something prior to OmO Terry Forbord: I think one of the things, I'm not sure if John embell~ed very much on but the city, ~ those of you who followed this. Lake Riley has been one of the more pollul~l lakes in your chain of lakes in Chanhassen and a lot of that has to do of the lack of any storm waler num~~ in this area. Now a time ago the city hired their consultant to develop a plan for storm walm' management in this srea. And this area of our development is integral with the city's storm water management plan for this area. And the d~w~:~pn~nt and the catching of the storm water...~nd then Ine-lrcating that and discharging that into the wetland. Ultima~ly even~_n_lly into Lake Riley. Some of the nutttcrs as it ~ to that...and I &m't know ff staff got into flint very much in the report. I'm sure we touched on it but I remember it came out in our prclim~ staff meeting with them so that's another attribute that..~md that is accom~ ~ goals and objectives of the city... We tried to focus on the issues that were of concern ~o the Planning Commiss~ There are other things we could get into. I'd rather not do that at this time. Maybe it's just easier for us to respond to your questions. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Councilman Senn: I don't know. When I went and walked the area, one of the big reasons was I henrd from a number of people along the Lake Riley Blvd about the access issue and the plan, you know the plan itself, you know I'd have to say given the ordinance, I think from my pe~peclive I like it. I mean I like bi~cr lo~ towards the perimclm'. Towards the outside. I like the selbacks. I like the way they ueated the abutting neighborhoods or at least the abutting existing neigh~ with no houses fronting over that way. The big 65 Ch~ _hn~sen_ City ~ - December 13, 1993 plnn. lgnesstheonly~hlnsI'dlike~oseeisalit~mm~lnnd~alonsth~Lak~Rfl~Blvdbnck~ I Ihink the ~ also back there ~ a ~ ~t m ~ ~ ~ I ~t ~ ~ ~ it a f~w limes nnd I fail Io see how & ~ut tlttoagh there is going to renily incamme ~ ~ ~ tt seems lo n~ Itmt you'd come down TH 101 to Lyman anyway and it wouldn't cut thron.o~ thexe to ~et to Lalm ~ heennse yon'd have to slow down so much Ihtmlgh the n~n~hm~ I would think it would just ~o do~n Lymnn and dida't,. area. IguessI'mnotinagositionto~n~itorse~ml~mait. Woeatrledfmnvntdth~m~mmmdnlimnnd PanlKrauss: l'msureyoucoald~dothat. Surelyyoacmgetahydmnt~bytmtyou'v~g~t, what is it 1300 feet beyond thnt point which wouldn't have any wnm'. Councihnan Senn: But !hs_~ wouldn't be there by having th~ ac~ss I mean would it'/ PanlKrnuss: No, but it does alknv you m stage v~iclm. 'rfmt'swhatMatkwnse~r~ fatnin_o to me. Especia~y In thewintmime, 'f'nis muls ~odriftin. lt'ssonnn~w~~~'s~~~ 14~~~ thecurb, if there was a aub. Which tim~ isn't, Thntit'sjtstvery~toman~uv~mgeth~from afiremnd. Anditwnsa'tth~~answ~. In~nnthe~answ~rtmllytofindanoth~furlh~downbnt Paul Kranss: Councilman Senn, I honestly ~'t ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ m ~ ~'s ~ at it, which isn't a whole lot, the idea of upgrading Lnk~ Riley Blvd in my whir, shnpe or from is... ~Sean: No, Ididn'tmennlimt. InmmtbyJnstkindoggoing~htotheem~ttm~ Chanhassen City Council. December 13, 1993 Councilman Mason: Couple of things. I know, I'm sure as things move down further that way the discussion of lot size will get larger and larger. Councilwoman Docke~: As will the lots. Councilnum Mason: Well, I've lived in, there was a time in my life where I was very ~ that I had about 200, well 30 square feet to mow. Unfamma~y I have more to mow now and I'm not happy with that but that's my faulL So you know, in educatim a buzz word we have fight now is diversity and while as I think I'll think that's okay because I do agree with Terry ltmt clearly there nm some people that don't want to Hve in a 15,000 square foot lot. I mean you drive through some of Lundgren developments nnd there nre smaller lots and there are people living in those homes. So you know, move onward and upward or wha~ and I know Don and I ar~ going to toe to toe on that one forever, so I don't care nbout u'mt, Terry, what's nffordable? About what are we looking at for price ranges on these homes? Terry Norbord: I'm guessing in today's dollars, due to the cost of land and the cost of developing. Councilman Mason: Understood. Terry Fodx~: That you're probably looking in the range, on the least expensive lot, somewbe~ in the base price of about 5165 to $170 upwards to about $250 in today's dollars. And that, unfortunately, is affordable in Chanhas~. That would be on this site. Coundlman Mason: Well I don't call that affordable. I undersland your developmeats, and I don't think 12:17 or 18 is the time to get into that discussion but I beg to differ that those are affordable and I, you know, speaking of work sessions, maybe we need a work session on that. Tm'y Forbord: Just a clarification. I'm not Iryin8 to tell anybody thnt _ttm__t_'s affmdnble but that's mtlity in Chanhasse~ And that's not because Lundgren Bros decided that. That's because of Met Council's land policies, number one. Number two is because of zoning ordinances. And number three, it's the basic cost of building materials... Councilman Mason: Well okay, then I can throw that back to you and say how much money has Lundgreu Bros made in the city of Chanhassen in the last 10 years too. You know so. Terry Forbord: ...not make any mo~ money on a percentage than across the indusuy. Councilman Mason: Terry, I'm not saying you do but I don't think it's, I think it's real easy to sa~ I have no control over it. Terry Porbord: The single most driving...of price of homes is the Me~ Council's land use policies and the sewer allocation. I meant imre is no other component that drives the cost as weJL.. Councilman Mason: Well, I guess that's fine but I also know you can buy homes cheaper.than that, and maybe they're not as nice. I'm not going to get into ~n_t_ argument with you but I, that's not the only issue here as far as I'm concerned on affordable housing. The Kiowa Trail thing, since I've been on Council, if people haven't wanted a road to go through there, I think we've figured out a way not to put that rond through or to put up a 67 City Council - Decnn~ 13, 1~93 banicadeasI iook to thc left of Timbcrmx)d. Butit'snotjustTimbenvoMsoldoa'tcweabomttmt. Butthat road soing through oa Laicc ~, it ~ to me lt~ c*vcr)qx~ oa Lak~ Riley doesn't want it tire,ugh ~ and I guess if th~'re wtlling to accept thc fact that a fire truck can't get In timm ~ ~y, ~ ~ ~ We always have Ibis fisht as ~ to 50 foot right-of-ways as oppmed to 60 foot risht-of-ways. Councilman Mason: We don't anymm~? Cot~_ _~lmnn Mason: Well youknow, weHthnt's apoint ofdiscnssi~ for mebut I'm not going to, 50 or 60__fo~_ October 31st as oMmsed to November lSth? Charles Fokh-' Right, and that basically follows what the W~ Dlstri~ lm~ in their l~]remei~L Cotmcilman Mason: Which, going to November l~th7 You don't ca~7 Charles Folch: That's fine. That's cmsisam with W~ District ~ W'mg: Which number was that Miiro-7 Councilman Mason: Well you know, l~~~ lai~_oveewith that. Howcmne, welL Now'snot the time for that. Councilman W'mg: If we give Terry a 3,000 squnre foot lot. Councilman Mason: I'm smTy, what Don? 68 C~ City Council - December 13, 1993 Mayor Chmiel: I said we'll tsl~ about that. I think we may have a panner but I'll let you know in 2 weeks. On affordable housi~. Councilman Mason: That's fine. That's fine. Now once again Lundgren Bros I think, I mean I drive through their neiEhborhoods and they do good work. Mayor Chmieh Is that it? Councilman Mason: Yeah, I'm done. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well I read the whole staff report and I ended up asking myself ooe bi~ question. Why is this a PUD. Beyond the variation in lot sizes I can't see what the city is ~ fix~m it and I had a question also on the price rangers because I thought well maybe, you know we got S.msller 1o~. Maybe fl~ win satisfy some of my personal needs for affordable hoosing but I can see that that's not the case here. So I'm not real happy with the, what was it 46% we estimal~ ~ under 1~,000. I have a real problem with that. interior. I'm just not sure about the number of the stnaller lots. I have concern with. I agree that there should be no Kiowa access. I can see people tearing up TH 101 ami cullin~ thrmlgh. As far ss Lake Riley, I guess I don't understand ~ residents' conc~n because I don't see increased uaff~ as a result. Why would anyone drive that that doesn't live on 1.~. Riley7 I can see the developer's concern they don't want ~o take out a lot but I fail to see the residents' concern there and ff it's, and I guess we do need further, I need further clarification from Mark as to, Mark Littfin as to what the issue is with the fire department and maybe Richard can answer that question. So not being happy with the 11,000, I'm not sure h'm, well it is a PUD so we do have the right to deny it. But I think llua's something that we're going to have to lalk about as a Ipmeral ordinance at one point because I don't like it. I don't know. I'd like to see some redesign of ~i,. I don't like all those small lots, particphrly if they're selling for $170,000.00. Mayor Cluniel: Before I go to you Richard, I've got to just ditto whal Colleen has said because that was most of my comments that she said. Your turn. Councilman Wing: Well this kind of subdivision, this schematic was 146 and this is 134 so the density was less than it could have been pedml~. And if we force the 15,000, maybe Lundgmn will walk and someone else would come in and do just what they're suggesting. They may or may not or maybe ~ will say we want this bad enough that we'll just give up a few lots. I guess we don't know the answer to thai. Number 4 and 5. What were the questions from ~Iohn on the, he questioned 4 and 5 on the paridAr~d. Mayor Chmiel: 5 was the trail easement, which would be dedtcau~ He says that they shouldn't have to pay the full trail fees or one should compensa~ the other. Councilman W'mg: Okay, whatever. On all the park and rec issues on number and also number 32, having to do with sidewalks, I'd like to see those stay. I don't want to deba~ lhose. Number 17. I woukl delete ex~ending the cul-de-ssc to connea I ~ke. Riley Boulevard. Out of the three house fires, two of ~ have beea south of thai bcafion anyway and ~ wouldn't have made a bit of difference. And the fire dellartment, fire marshal, under fire code and NFP 15 standards would like to have double access to all nei~lmrhoods, and we haven'l done lhat yet. Every time we come in we just, so no sense, there's nothing to be gained or Io~ here. We haven'l done i~ elsewhere so l? I'd be happy deleting. Number 18 1 would keep. I'd go with the 60 feet 69 Chanhassm City Cmmcfl - Dwmlber 13, 1993 If there was an adjustmmt ~ I would ~ ~ thnt on your . Other than that I don't have any ~ with this. I do hnve a ~ and I ~ CoHere and I ~ the Mayer. My sohtion would be, I'm just going to ~wow this on the ~ ?in- l suPlX~ minbnnm iot sizes of 22,{X)0. A PUD can go down to nny lot size they wsm as ires ns the net density nnnnins nt 18,000. X dm't ~ So22cmaMandmdsubdtvisimi. 'X'nat'sa~. lf you want to go PUD, miy lot siz~ you want but wc go to 18,000 f~ our minimmm. Thnt's just my own ~ ~ and I fett that wa~. CouncilmnnW'mg: Oh excuse me, nvemge, 9'9-isasmndwdmbdivtsim~ lfyouwantlolletiowerlhnn,hnt- designnny/J~youwnnt. Idon'tca~ewhatlom. I wouldn't even pnt a lot size in them as iong as the net average was 18,000'rind we get it nil done. Bob Geaemus: Ye~, it would be... said if you really wnnt to fight for this you slmuld be he~ arm he said, it's scrt c~ the ~ 'l'nnt's I~ way we have to design this nnd that's tl~ way we stmuld go nnd I told him I MutMdy wouldn't ~ it. I didn't think itwnsworththenrgmnentnndworth~~ Andthenetllainwnsatmlnnc~ Ifsnythin~,cmmcdngKlowa it's still hnd. It'sstillspnns. Itstill, youknowmn~ttgoestosethernndtmfldsabett~n~h~~ ti~tly contnined in the ne/~fl)od~)d so in that cmm~ thnt's why I didn't raise a big issne over the 60 feet even 70 Chanhas~n City Council - December 13, 1993 Charles Folch: If I could comment on that a little bit Condition number 32, the trail or some son of walk system to connect ~ ~irc Riley Blvd and Lyman Blvd and Bandimere Park. So you're going to put this trail in the boulevard of these streets flu~u~ the subdivision here. If you ~o with a S0 foot right-of-way, y~ only have a 9 foot boulevard. You have an 8 foot trail, ff you're going to have any type of utilities, cable TV, electric, gas, phones, what have you. One side or undmmeath the mreet, or underneath the trail I should my, it's not a good situation in terms of future repair and future maintenance. That's just not enough, we just don't have enough ri~t~-way there to have a trail through there. lViaycr Chmiel: That's a 8ood point. Councilman Wing: As a matter of fact, the Tree Bom'd Immlght up flint ~he 60, thafs right. The Tree Board in their upcoming ordinance is requiring the 60 becmme it's the only way ~ can get boulevard uees in and mill have utilities. They needed that space. lViayc~ Chmiel: Yes, I'm going to 8ive you nbout 2 miuul~s please. Councilman Senn: Could I ask one question? Can that be done selectively though? Charles Folch: Can what be done selectively? Councilmnn Senn: The wider fight-of-way to meet the trail t'~ts. I mean we nren't running trails through every street. Charles Folch: The standm~ that we use is 60 and in this particular case we sre putting in a trail, or requiting thai trail system be put in here. In that situation the 50 foot really becomes a problem. I believe 3 years'ago we upped our ordinance to require 60 feet. Before that we had 50 but again as Dick pointed out, we ran into l~'oblems with boulevard uees. If we were puttin~ in sidewalks or trails, there ws.m't' enough room. . Councilman Senn: But I'm just saying, within this neiBhbodiood could it be done selectively? In relatio~ to the, yeah. Charles Folch: Well, it certainly could be done but (me thing that I'm cautious about is mak s~ ~'s good justification for doing that because otherwise I don't want to set precedence for being ~ and capricious. Councilman Senn: No, I understand. Charles Folch: I know we did on the 5ong sddifion on a couple of cig-de-sacs but it was real critical to save trees and not impact wetlands and in those si.,ntlrms I see it's valid but it's certainly up to your discretion. 1Vlayc~ Chmiel: Okay. I tiff[fit we're. Terry F~: Can I respond to maybe issues ti~ were raised? Councilwoman Dockendoff: You were going to give him 2. minu{~s. lVlayor Chmiel: Yes. 71 Chanlmmm Cit~ Council - December 13, 1993 Coun~lim~m ~ We already Used the 2 minuleL TaryF(xtxxd: Onth~wail,~ma~~y~~m~~~~~~ Ou the C(xnp Pin there is a trail p~ right now fur along Lyman Blvd. In the City's cm~ plan ~ is a uall to go nloog TH 101. That wiH collect future netghboflJoods, ~ ~ ~~ ~~ ~~m vory m~my noi~ in CbailhliBl~ havo'sidowalks. 50 foo~ righl~of-way so it mu~ work ~' tho~ _commnnities wonMn't bo ~ it. The PUD {t~ii{{, w~ {lied ~O ordinance. I w~l no~ u'y lo ~m~11id~ upo~ ~ my further but ~ c~lainly is bea~t lo I~ ~ ami w~'m bargaining chip with Mnlk~ which I ~ ~ ~ m Ihe cRy's mtvanm~ wlmn ~ ~ m ne~ d~ails ' of~atin~mng~a~hefumm21~. Weuiedmad~hepa~licmimiameby~membly. TheCiya can m addmss tlmm. l~ycx'Chmid: A~e~anyoth~~~atymmy~rmaymXlmv~? Okay. IsIbereaGiXk~? Couaahnm Senn: I'ntryone. Idoa'tknowJfi~willgetacomemusmiL Butlwouldmo~qJjmMdto adopt to mffslmXmnmhtiom wi~h thefolhwhgchngu. OnS, Ithinkth~dmMbcgivmmdit Deh~ 17. 18, I'd lik~ to see why you'd, w~ e0ttml would be requimd, atlfmstinthemdlm'eatoput~ I don't lmow if that's 60 feet or if it's S5 erwhafL'ver _Om4~s. I don't know. lt'snmreuptoyou. Idon'tseea lwoblem with Novesnber 1Sth on 26. BntI'dmn--to also see 32 my in requirht8 thetmiL Mayor Chmtd: Is the~ asccond? Chanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 Councilwoman Dockendoff: I'll second that. With the clarification Mark on 18. That you want on the road that will have the trail we'll require the 60 foot. Otbetwise. Councilman Senn: Or S5, whateve~ you can get by with. You know, I don't want to get into a whole redesign but it seems to me that if there's some distance we could mice off there nnd still get the trail in, in that nrea without nmybe having to go thc full 60. Well, I'd rather leave that up to Charles. Councilwoman Dockcndorf: Otherwise it'd be 50 m all the rcst? Councilman Mason: So you want it to be 50 feet then, not 60? Councilman Senn: 50 except where it's necessary. Be 60 where it's necessary. Because I haven't seen the justification really in here for the 60. Mayor Chmicl: Does thnt give you a lot of problems, from a 50 to a 607 And I think there can be some problems that would be there. Charles Notch: Well I mean, you certainly can make that decision but ~ntu, maybe it would be hel~ for me to understand thc rationale why we'd go to 50. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I don't undcrmnd that either. Councilman Senn: I would base it on basically the premise that we're main~ the large lots around the perime~. The much more than required setback from the roads in the existin~ ne~hbothoods and in effect the buffe~g that that's going to accomplish as a result of that condition. And I view that basically~ like I said earlier, in the same way as I would view trees or other types of things that we require in there. The only other thing I would like to add is I would like to still add what I said earlier and I'd like to see some landscaping along that portion of Lyman Blvd. Mayor Chmiel: There's a motion on the floor with a second. Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the Preliminary PUD or 8o,8 acres of property to create 13S single family lots, preliminary plat approval, and rezontng of the property from A-2, Agrtcnltural Estnte to PUD.R, Planned Unit Development-Resldenthl, subject to the following conditions: 1. Submitutl of street namos to thc Public Safoty Department, Inspections Division for rovicw and approval prior to final plat approval. 2. Revise grading and erosion control plan to indica~ lowest ~ level elcvati~ snd gara~e floor elevation before final plat approval 3. Tree preserv~o~ing: State Hi~y 101 and Lyman Boulevard. This buffer shall be sufficient to screen direct views of the homcsite from thc roadway. Additional landscaping _~nll be provided along I.,ka Riley Boulevard to 73 ChJmhassm City Comictl - December 13, 1~3 6. Denxmstm~_th-~__eachlotcnnnccmnmoda~ntlenstn60'x 40'homesitennda12'x12'decJta~ 7. A miniml~l fi~ (~0) foot b, dl~ng ~ ~ I~ ~ ~ Lyman ~ and $1al~ 101. 9. No lots simll have driveway nc~ess to State Highway 101, Lynmn ~ C~' L~ ~ 11. As acendition~final~~~~~l~n~luinMtoentm'inton PUDa~and development contract with the Oty and l:gOVt~ lt~ necessary finnn~_ .1 lecm~tT' Io ltmlxIR~x~ ~ homes ndjacent to the homes in the smntmmt c4~ner of the site, ~y Lo~s 6, 7 and 8, Block 5. subdJvisLnn shall fall within the City's standard of 0.50~ to 7J)~ p=cem 14. Strum sewers ~h_ni! be desisncdnndotmstm~MtofnciUtatea 10-year mmm event. 'f'nelmndin~ bnsinsme 15. The drY_ 'nnge basins along Lypum ~ shnll be sized to Is~ommoda~ the strum runoff ~ ~ ~ 74 Chanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 16. 17. 18. 19. 21. upgrade of Lyman Boulevard. The City may contribute towards the cost of any pond oversizing as a result of additional runoff generated from Lyman Boulevard. The City will credit the applicator by means of an assessment reduction. Storm sewer and ponding basins shall be designed in accordance to the City's Surface Water Management Plan. The applicant shall work with mit in relocating or adjusting the proposed NuRP basins adjacent to Lyman Boulevard to be compatible with the future upgrade of Lyman Boulevard. Thc applicant shall clcdicatc on the final plat additional road fight-of-way along ?_~L-e Riley Boulevard to achieve a 60-foot wide right-of-way. The slreet right-of, way throughout the sulxlivision shall be ~0 feet wide if the ~ Engineer approves as adequate. Thc applicant/property owner of Outiot F shall enter into a driveway casement with the adjoining three ~ owners for the use of the existing driveway through Outlet F ff one currently does not exist or eliminate the issue by rclocatinu the driveway off of the vroDertV. Preliminary and final plat approval shall be conditioned upon the Ch~nlumen City Council anthmizing a public improvement project for the extension of trunk utility service to the area and the upgrade of Lyman Boulevard to urban standards. :22. Pi.re hydrants shall be spaced in ~ce to the City's fire marshal recommend~*ions. 3e 25. Thc applicant shall provide a &inch watermain stub to Lake Riley Boulevard between Lots 15 and 16, Block 5 shall be provided. Thc existing home on Outlet F shall bc required to connect to City sewer and water service within 12 months from thc date the system becomes available or sooner if the well and septic system fails. The applicant shall receive and comply with all pertinent agency permits, i~ Watershed Dislrict, Health Department, MPCA, Williams Brothers Pipeline Company, MWCC. All disturbed areas during site grading shall be immediately restored with seed and disc mulch or wood fiber blanket within two weeks after site gr~tiug or before November 1Sth each cons~ season accept in area3 where utilities and street will be comtructed yet that year. All disturbed air, as remflting from conslrucfion activities slmll be restored in accordance to the City's Best Management Practice Handbook for erosion and sedimeat control. As a condition of final plat approval, the applicant win be required to enter into a development comract with the City and provide the necessary financial security to guarantee compliance with the conditions of approval and final platting. 75 cttl-~ ~1~,!! I~ ~ ~o the l~Oie~ m~oertv ~ A ~~v'~ ~ ~ ~ m ~ ~ ~ k h~, ~t~ C~ ~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~ a ~ ~4 ~ L ~EL~ ~~ A~JG~ ~~A~ ~R ~~ BQ~~D ~~ OF ~w~ ~ Y~ ~~ 1. ~~ I~'t~ ~ny ~ ~ J~~ YmIm. 76 C~ Cit~ Council - December 13, 1~3 Mayor Chmieh Okay. Charles, do you want to touch on thia just real quickly? Charles Folctc Basically, the short t~m version. We've got, as part of the improvement of Galpin...and things like that, ...and how we can basically load, ff you will, the most impact of the land to the east side. We basically made a ctws~ review of what thc impacts might be. What the costs might be in terms of right-of-way acquisition, the grading, consu'uction, etc. And at this point in time it's our recommendation...that the most cost effective...option, based on our current information, is to gn with Alternntive 1. Jim Leirdahl: Thc only c~nment I had, I'm Jim Leirdahl and I live in Timbetwood and the only comment I had was that, looking through the, sc. We just got these in the mail so it's not real ~ir to set those. I think we Sot them Ntiday...I don't know who did it. Whoever this fellow, Roger Oustafson. Who did this one? Charles Folch: It was Banon-Asclmum I believe. Jim I..,eirdahl: It's not nice to call other peop~'s trees tnarginnl and it's no bis deal if we set rid of two 24 inch trees on my land, you know what I mean? They are marginal, there's .no cost to that. That doesn't seem f-nh. to me. But obviously you've got to go with number 1. 'l'ne cne wifltout Betting rid of the trees. It's pretty obvious. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, and that's basically what we've looked at on ~i,: Jim LcirdaM: But my point is, you're going to eliminate... Councilman Senn: Charles, wouldn't we normatly replace that in terms of, I mean we can't plant 24 inchers but we can plant a number of smaller caliper trees to replace it don't we? Charles Fokh: Right. That's typically what we would have to do. In looking at...trees. There m'e signifw, ant. trees, no doubt about it. Jim ~: They're also blocking what you're doing on the other cra'net by putting all these townhous~ up. Charles Folch: Looking at the whole magnitude of trees that could be impacted out there, two out of the bunch is a small amount. Now if it's...but as far as what thc impact could have been if we located the roadway alignment, it could have been worst... Jim Leirdnhh That's fine. The concern we're having, the infommlion we get as homeowner, we don't know what's going on. I got a letter from thc City Attorney that says we want to take some of your right-of-way over here and then we 8et...and I think that somehow the informatiou has to be given to those being affected a liuJe mc~c effectively. We still don't know what's going on...l'm sure they just couldn't my up this late. 'l'ney were wondering the same thing. No one knows what's going on... Charles Folch: Acmn~ly thc casement acqu~fions were negotiated throu~ the utility lgoject but it makes sense if you're acquiring the utility, you might as well acquire all the right-of, way at the same time so...utility easement now and later on when you do the road widening, you come bnck and have to pay for it again in road fight-of-way. $o ifs just a combination of trying to ac. qui~ both at this point, The definition of what it i~... Those ~, the easement you're referring to, those went out I believe last week or the week bef~ last... The utility project... 77 inv~_ '_o-~o-.~ Mil bc~m~ They need to do s~ne more dfstailed ~ to be abl~ m ~ ~ ~ ~ ~gl mflifimin th~ ~ lobe/bile. Coun~man W'mS: Thetimefnnne'sreallynlimtere, Xt's~tosetaln~r(nPddsyerMmdfty for a meeting tonight nnd it's hnppemd twice tmighr OmriesFoich: Cmshly,~uhlowldidhit~th~o/zr~cannznndw~dizusedit lwnabl~to fin in on thc informafi~. Certninly if fl~re's nny time you Set a letter nnd you Imv~ quemims, give us a call nt J'im Leirdn~ I've been here $ horns. Jim~: I lalked In you too. CouncibnanSenn: Yeah, Imeanyouiotalemraixmpicofda~ftgooryes~hy, wlmtm~. Imem~ wht Clmflcs is suggestins here is rhnt_ we adopt Allnnafl~ 1 Jim t_~-~d~___ l: Iwnnt~forShom~becnxL~Ife]tslro~emmshtlmtit'snotd2htlolp~talol1~onPtid~. Coungilmnn Sen~ I think ~ t~ here ~ wi~ you on thnt issu~ but we wnnt nt tho snn~ tin~ to maim sure that you're going sway with whnt you'd li~ lo Imve. I mesh ff w~ replnce your u~ ou n caliper inch 78 Chanhasaen C~ty Council - I~h~.~mber 13, 1~93 Mayor Chmiel: Thanks for coming in and slaying. We have a mo6on. Councilman Senn: I move ~al with that stipulation m his trees. Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Docken~ seconded to select Alarnative No. 1 ms the preferred Foadway al ~JEnment for Gu!pin Boulevard from Trunk HlffJ~eay S south to Timberwtmd Drive m a part of the overall south frontage road ProJect No, 03-26, with the chrlflmtion that Mr. Leirdahl's trees be replaced on a per caliper inch basis. AH voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Councilman Senn: What do we have to do tonight? Mayor Chmiel: Well we've got to get the city b._fl_Eet, Councilman Senn: Does that have to be done tonight? Mayor Chmiel: Yep, Councilman Wing: Oh yeah, That's a priority toaight. Mayor Chmiel: We have to have the adoption of the city budget. And then we also have J and Q on the agenda yet. Court. woman Dockendorf: Well yeah, we can pass (~. Th~ only reason ! wanted it brought up is so that the paper would print something that we made a decision so people know what we did. ! don't have a problem with it. So ! move approvH of it and it won't go in the paper. RESOLUTION TO PROCEED WITH PHA~E H OF QRGANIZED CQL,LlZCTIQN AND DI~AL TRA(~K OF WORKING WITH HAleR,ERS. Councilman Senn: ! t~i~ed to Paul about this bef(x'e the meeting, or earlier today and Pul ,just came up and said he had to leave for his long trek home I gte, n because the driving conditions are preuy bad. But when we do, can we stipulat~ that we're passing aplxo~ of Phase H and basically authorizing the resolution but on the basis that the resolution will be rewritten to conform to the staff report and Council's comments at the last meeting because the current resolution in here is the resolution that was adopted a month ago and does not at all conform to our comments at our last meeting and is very rnis!__,~i.S. And we ask~ Roger if that was okay and Roger said that's okay. Councilwoman l~,~ndorf: Absolu~y. So now that we'r~ completely out of orci~. Mayor Chrniel: We'll move this around but we'll get it done, Councilnun Senn: Were you moving that or did you Mint me to move that? Mayor Chmiel: She already moved it. Chanlmssen City Council - December 13, 1993 ~ Senn: Okay, I'll se~xn~! it. previom meeting. All voted in favor nd the motim carried ~. ADOPTION OF 1994 CITY BUDGEY~ wns going bnck to look at, that we were looking at a 5~ cut and ff we l~msfltmed a ~ of those ~ we'd still be looking nt nbout a 2 1/2~ cut pros we coo~ stt~k that~ eith~ in a ccmfln~m~y ~ ~m~ beck into funding a couple of those ~n? Councilman Senn: But that's not what's hn~. MayorChmiel: No. And it comes back a little ~y. He's~thnt, tolrytodiscomngetheCip/ Council from making a property mx decrease solely f~r the rensm of hnving a mx ~. I don't think thnt's the reason lint I'm suggesting that we have a 2% to 3% lax cut. I have some strong jumtfic.~lttms as far as I feel. Is that we're part of govemmm and I tMnk we should consider ns to how we'~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I ~ink our citizens within the _c~mmrm'.~y aa'e going lo be~ from this as well and I think we hve m ~ Councilman Scnn: l'nis will scareyou butIalpttwith you i00% ~lhesenumbersstflldm'ttell us*tm* Councilman Senn: Mor~ or Ich, these nnmhcrs don't nllow us to achieve undcr any cmditim~ a $~ 5c~rease nor a 2 1/2% with those programs still in there. property tax increase over 1~2, an ndditional $36,000~0 which we then modified to ~t3,000D0 needed to be cut ff y~u wanted to have a 0~ tncrms~ *l'nat ac~n__ ny wffi l~odnce a ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ b $36J}00JX}needcdtobecuc Wecut43. ~ncn the Cmmcil said well, we'dltketocmsidersome~ Chanhnss~ City Council - Dec. her 13, would translate into ~% reductim. If you felt that that's what it was you know, I don't recall anyone ever saying that the $50,000.00 would translnte itself into a certnin percent reduction over last year. Councilman Senn: Well we were throwing a lot of numbers nwund but I had $80,000.00 written down. Not 50. $80,000.00 which translated into Don Ashworth: Included the other 36. Right, and I don't disagree with that. I said we'n pick up the 626. We'll pick up another $36,000.00 because that was the number I was using at that point in time, What we nctn_nlly did wns stuck $43,000.00 and I'll find another $48,000.00 to give you the alternative to potenflnlly ndd Councilman Senn: So we were under a rn~~ding when we were kind of ~1~ in concept at the end of the thing. Councilwoman Dockendorf: That was my understanding of it. Could I put my two cents in thare? Mayor Chmiel: Sure. lVlayor Chrniel: Okay. Is that a motion? Coundlwoman Dockendod: Hey, if you want it to be, sure. lVlayor Chmiel: No I don't but, Councilwoman Dockendod: I didn't think you did. I'd like to hear what everyone else has to say be/ore I make that a motion. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Richard. Councilman Wing: Well I 'support the 0 increase. This is a growing city and my ravin/re dollars are the ones I spend in thc city. They ali come back to me personally. So I think the citizens are entitled to a zero increase but a cut, when we're letting land ~ that should be bought for lxc, ks, etc, etc, I don't buy that. Colleen, your second comment. Oh, the contingency fund. I don't think that's our responsibility. When we're lookins at multi millions of dollars here and we're going to say oh, let's have a contingency fund of $23.83 or $43,000.00. I see that ns just hot air on our part is my opinion. I think that's a city manager's problem and I think the city don't think that it's necessary for us to worry about timt. Ail we have to do is set the budget and let the city manager tnke c, nre of the money. So I would oppose a contingency fund. I don't think we have the money for the contingency fund. But more important, I think the city manager takes that into his thinking and it's just more money that's being put aside that we might as well give back to the taxpayers, if that's the case. Councilman Senn: So are you saying you don't support the zero then? Councilman Wing: Oh no, no. I support the zero. I don't suppcrt a decrease and I would, I've m_nde my stand 81 problems and the issues and the only way to resolve it is wllh a rusk force. Tlnat means a dedienml, sepnte trnffic car. I've only asked for $10,000.00. ! _th/nk we cnn do it, from my ~ in tnn~g to the $10,000.00 will lnovide ns with a lot of very visible traffic. So that's one iu~n thnt I'd li~ to see ~ Ixw, k in. decrease fcr the sak~ of a decrease wlmn we nm talking nbout, ~ ~'t ~ m~ ~ ~ ~ We dm't have money for the investigator. We're ho~ing the line and we.'ve been holding Ihe line ever since Yve been mi commended f~r that. ButO~Ith~ntisholding~~a~rHgoalongwithO%. Ithinkthmthepeintcomes to where we do with this wlsh ~ whnt we do with it. I~oalmgwilh~ However l do know thnt-we'm ~ W'mg: Well I'n behnppy to move~ ofaO~ de~imt with the traf~__nt3,~d__ lint don't we lmve mo~ mm~ than th~ At 0 cm't we. Com~lm~~ Whichmemswe'mnots~ln~Oattt~pclm. We're sotn~ mUms about, wh~ 82 Chanhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 Councilwoman Dockendorf: .000%. May~r Chmicl: It wouldn't be very much, Don Ashworth: F. ach percent is $110D00.00, So you'd be roughly a third of a lmrCeaC 3/10 of a percent so it would move from 2~.$ this past year to 2~.2. Cotln~wo~ Dockerldl:fff.* BocatlSe that i8 BO liomln~tJ, why don't we just stm't buJldin~ this park fund bit by Councilman Wing: Isn't that good business? I mean we pay the piper someplace and ff it's there this year, we don't have to raise taxes, is that good business to fund that? I mean I don't know. It's a little over my heacL Councilman Senn: Dick in a way I agree. It's good business to fund it but I think that's kind of where we need to decide what it is and that's tho only reason I suggested a contingency back in the first place.' Bemuse we keep getting in these meetings where we'rc running up against d~adllnes and we never really have a chance to say well, geez if we got another extra $40,000.00 how would we really like to spend it when the occasion arises during thc year. We may have five totally different opinions here, I don't know but I mean to me that's something you know rather than just kind of dowling it out now and like Scott sat here and said tonight, he really wasn't sure he needed that and again, that's a consideration but I think we should throw it all kind of in thc bag and shake it up and see what it comes out. Councilman W'mg: So you say put the $33,000.00 in the cmtingency? Councilman Senn: Yeah. Councilwoman Dockc~: I could suptxa't that. Councilman Wing: I'd like to alter my motion to approve thc budget with the intfr~ task force and the $33,000.00 additional then going into a contingency fund. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'll second that. Coun~ Mason: Quick discussion. What is this traffic fcacc thing suplxtsed to do for us7 Mayor Chmicl: Pick up speeders. Slow down people. ~ everybody hairy tn the city. Councilman Mason: Well. Councilman Wing: It has nothing to do wtth...It's a specinl shift that ts bid as uaffic that does nothtng but. It's a statio~ ~. Councilman Mason: You know it amazes me how fast they're still going down West 78th so what the heck. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. A motions on thc flo~r. Is there a second? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yes. 83 Cbnm'mssm City Council - December 13, 1993 gotn8 to try m do the thing ns $33,000.00 this yem' nnd ~ mske tt 66 tn '99. Th~ still Imve a ~ chance to come back nnd say, dcsigrmt~ that 33 ferns. 4~D. ~TIVE P]~SENTATIONS: May~Chmicl: Okay. Let'ssee.. Westilllutvecensmt~tmnJ'. lVlny~Chnd~ Butlwnnttomovenheadmd]~'dlli~m, andwe'vealrmdyaddrmsedgA,~ 9Aissc"~+~ Don Ashwot~ I'd lint it on Jnnnnry 10th. Yo~ cnn set ~]~ ~m o~ Jnntmry 10th. ~CCEPT $1~00. GRANT FROM THE ~OPOt,/T.4~ REGION~ ART8 COUNCIL itOR .VERBAL (APPROVAL REOUIRED BY DECEMBER 15. 1993). May~r ChmieJ: Let's So to 9C and I thin~ we can just let 9B sit. ~ Senn: And J is going to the 10th. to be set on the 10th? Don Ashwo~: Yeah.... Councilman Se2m: Oncqui~question. Doesthhinmywayobligatemm~~~ Clmnhassen City Council - December 13, 1993 Councilman Senn: Well, is ~ n way we can m.i~. ~ ki~ ~ clear? ' Mayc~ Chnfiel: Well I think what we have to do is look at it. If they're giving a grant this yenr, I'm sure that they would probably be going through that same process next year. If not, then we review what's being done. Ma~or Chmjel moved, Councilman Mason seconded to accept the $1,000.00 pant from the Metropolitan ResIonal Arts Council for Creative Kids Workshop. An voted in favor and the motion carrbd nnnimou~ly. Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Senn seconded to ad]oarn the meeting, tln voted in favor and the motion carried, The meetin~ was adjourned at 1:08 am, Submiu~d by Don Ashworth City lVlanascr Prepared by Nann Opheim 85