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1993 10 11CHANHA$SEN CITY COUNCIL REG~ MEEFING OCTOBER 11, 1993 PlrIBt]'G ANNOI~IN~EMEN'I'S: Noah. (~'ON~NT A(~ENDA: CouncJln2n Mmm moved, Coumdlnmn Wins seconded to spprov~ ti~ fuJlowh8 Consa~ Afcnd~ itans ~ to the City Manss~s _r,~_ ~fl~ fl, Ston~ ~ 'ndrd ~ 1) l~ Plat A~ 2) Approve ~., mi Spectfiml~ nd ~ Contr~ Ctt~ Code Anendm~ to ~ 10 Reprdtng Swm. y (ktmtat B~ l~d Rmlh~ ~ a Incl~g a Summary Ordinan~ fur ~ Purpm~ j. Apln'O~ ~t wtth Apple Vftll~ R~I-E-.Mix. Ail voted in favoF and the motion cra*tied mmlmoudy. City Council ~g - October 11, 1~3 B...~.APPROVE CONTRACT AMENDMENT NO. 3 FOR WEST 71~TH STREET DETA(~HMENT AND DOWNTOWN IMPRQVEMENT PROJECT 92-3, Councilman Senn: Charles, I tried to catch you today and missed you...for the buds~ Charles NOtch: That's corr~t, yes. Councilman Senn: And then it says the revised contract nmount witl not be $2,733,718.007 Mayor Chmiel: I think it's a typo. Charles Notch: What you're actually seeing there is, you're seeing 2.6 was tho otigiml contract amount. Then you add, you've got this change ordm' of roughly $54,800.00. Then there was some previous...so those two added to the original ~ave you the $2.7 million there. Councilman Senn: Okay, so the new contract amount is $2.7 million? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Councilman Senn: Of thc $54,850.00 and the previous $55,719.00 then, I think when the $54,850.00 came up I u~lr~ this question too and I thought somebody wns going to get back to mc but basically, where's the funding coming from for, I mean that's like a hundred and some thousand dollars in change orders. Are those being assessed back directly to the ~ owners or what? Charles Folch: Basically we've established a minimum, it would be npporflonable to...assessments because the assessments will be based on the total project cost There's an assessment share and then there's also a local Councilnum Senn: In terms of the nddition to? Charles Fotch: The additions, based on the total con~ct,..final contract amount ends up being. Charles Folch: I don't recall exactly what the percentages were. What the road number is, I don't know exactly. We've got to find the storm sewer share which typically is split 50/50. 'I'nere won't be the two percentages based on thc front footage cost from the previous downtown improvement contract and adjusted based on a construction cosL..in today's dollars. But what that percentage was, I don't recall off lured. I'd have to go back and check. Councilman Senn: Okay, thc thin8 1 was wonde~mg is, I thought in the agreement, the development agreements that I saw previously they were fixed amounts alreauty called out. Charles Notch: Based on a pending assessment. Councilman Senn: Yeah so I mean, ff those fixed amounts are the case, I mean aren't we swallowing this whole $110,000.007 I mean how arc we going beyond those fixed amounts that were in those agreements? But I didn't see whc~ those ~, ~ ~'t i~ that ~ wllh a $3 rnilli_f~n Isojeck I mean it could be $2,980,000.00. It could be $3,012,000.00. So I firmly believe tlmt the contract stated, estimated asseumenlL clarify what thnt was for. And l think it's in thc meu~ dmt'_ sdafedOctober~ Rcsmdinsthe west embankment of Powers Bird be reinforced with I~ fabric due to the e~ poor Ctmfln~ Basicallyth~wasasofl -rem-"~t~'- lXObinnthatwasencomen~d~thepmJeck It's somcthins _flint whct~ w~ had bt~n able to discover It pr~ to c(~ tllrotlSh th~ laird desJsn phase (r nbontthe snmecost. 'rne~y~w~haveatthispointinltmeiswe'res~tofund~ltm~unhme, lt'sgoing to tak~ about 3-3 1/2 wee. ks to do ~- wink and that's about ~ nmonnt of ~ we ~ expect Motlm' Nntm~ will ~ us to ~ wotk the rest of this frill And I imow Rol~ Omtnfu~ with Cmv~ County Is very concerned ttmt-:.ns well ns city stnff ~ we ~ ~ ~ 17 ~ nP ~ the freeze uP. So unfommately there is a time element ~ but in nny cnse, fm I mentioned, we wonld hve had to dad with Councilman Senn: No, Iund~smndthnt- Idon'tdlsngn~whhdm*- The~'snotptyingany~_ n.gmwm~ doing ,M~ I don't believe. I jnst wnnt to be nssmed thnt If we're udkins $110,000JX} in ndditimml Project corn, ofik I guess if some~ody's nssurin8 ~ ~ ~'s ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Mnym Chmiel: Would you lii~ m m~ ~ ~? May~ Chmtd: Is them a second? Repohti~n ~3-09: Coundlmn Sen moved, Counchtan Mnmn seconded to nppmye C(mtm~ Amendment No. 3 for West 78th Street Detachment nd Downturn Imprommnt Project 92-3. All vomi In favor and the motion carried ~o City CouncU Meet~g - Octot~' 11, 1993 F® APPROVE GAMBLING PERMIT FOR THE RIVERIA ~LI~TB~ INCi DI~ABL~_B A _M~_RICAN V~rERANS. Councilwoman Docke~: I pulled this for the oppommity to vote against it for reasom I've stated in the pszt My oppos~n to gambling. At some future point I'd like to ~ake some time under Council Presen~ and convince my fellow council members to relook s~ our whole gambling ordinance but not this evening. So I can't move on it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Councilman Senn: Don7 Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Councilman Senn: I guess the, I'm not sure what all the history is on it. I m]lr,~l to Scott trlefly but it seems basically that this applicant has met the rules so to speak as established by the current ordinance mul stuff but n~be possibly, oven as a part of this motion I'd r~Hy like to see us review thsl ordinance anthoriztng org~i~tions and ff we are going to permit it, I guess basically what I'd really like to see item number 1 in the ordinance, which deals with any orgapi,~tlon dmt_ has 15 members that are residents of the city of Clmnba,~ removed as a criteria. I just feel really strongly that ff we are going to allow this and the few places that we think by eliminating 1, I think we'd get a long way towards that end and _~111ug back on the remaining criteria which I believe are too... Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Richard, I just wanted to interject on this. I also had some other infomulflon I uied to pull together on thh. That thc Disabled American Veterans do come into town with buses and pick up those people and bring them up to the Vets HospitaL And my undersumding that there has been several of those people within the dry thai have received ttmi kind of uanspci~aflon to and from but, Richard. Councilman W'mg: Well I'm with Colleen. I don't know enough about this to vo~e for it. I don't think we should be expanding it. I flfink it needs to be reviewed and I don't know what...purpo~ this is going to serve the city and I need that claflfied by Scou. What percentage goes back to the city? Where sre the funds going to go? Who's going to control the funds? Who's going to monitor the funds? And it's sad, in fact you can't discuss the DAV but if we're going to grant these permits, to have the Legion where we spec~y know what they're doing and where it's going and how it's being used but _this is getting pretty abstract for me and I don't, it's not clarified enough for me to vote for it y~t. Scott Ham 50~ of the..atre required to be brought back into and spent h Chan~ with 10% of that/50% being d/rccted to the city. When we rewrote the ordinance we specifically listed a number of requimm~ts the applicant would have to meet with the intent being to keep as ranch money as reasonable fur, or wire was considered rensonable at the time in town. And the City Attorney nnd I discussed this applicant and the application and they do meet the requirements as set forth. And Coundlman Senn and I discussed the possibiUty of dmnging...but spealdng in rdation to this applicant, they have met the requirements that are in existence. I ~11~ to a representnltve today and the Commander of the group last week to mnke m they ~ that 50c~ of thc proceeds would have to be coming back to the town and they understood _tt~___. think ~ a~ losical wa~ for thc~ to do dm~ But aBain, if we'~ 8oin8 to look at it, I'd rcany mm to ~ee dvis take mm'c of a local focus. I mean wc'm talkin8 about addtn~ local festivals md wlle~ do we alwap ~ ~ 1~ lmdea' look at it. Roi~Knuls~a: you'nhnvetogothrou~awocesstodothnt. Isnpp)seyonconidmbleitfor2wedtsand ask thc stuff to hrins back an ordinance cl~n~ if ~*'s aPtul~~ Yon hnve nn nl~ be/me yon. Counc/lman Wing: We do have the rl~t to deny it so I guess I'd like tt tabled with the intent °f I~itwl~ mm~ in~ but in fact we ma~ elect to deny it at that point. So I'm not asi~ ~ any c~ and I aplwove iL Scott Ham. What infimnaflon would yon wnnt brou~ brick Councilmm Whs: Oh, to follow ~ m~ Mad~'s commcnm and Cxilcen's c~z~m. Councilman Senn: I guess my ~ ts to Ro$cr. Canwe,. RoierKnmson: You can deny it ff it doesa't meet the ~qu~ of your mginmi/~ rm not aware of ally~h_ lng flint it doesn't meet. Comlcilman Senn: Okay. Well if it met the l~lutzm~m myt~ it's better, I~~~'s~ Oty CouncU Meeting - October 11, 1993 Mayor Chmiel: I think that will probably be the ri~t, yeah. Councilwoman Docke~: Oiven that, I mean from what I'm hearing from the rest of the Council, you're looking at specifically this npplication and making some tweaking to the ordinance to get a more locnliT_~l flavor. Where as I'm looking at potentially abolishing it so I know my wishes nre going to take same time so. Councilman Wing: Wound there even be hope of clarifying where more of this money is going to go. How it's going to be spent prior to approving it so there's a clear cut definition of what our expectations are for this approval under thc existing ordinance. Councilman Senn: My undemanding from talking to Scott was they're required to furnish thau Scott I-Iarr: They're required to tell us how they can prove that they bring ~0% back into... Don' Ashworth: That's an after the fact... What they did last year. Councilman Senn: And really isn't the clincher here that, I mean the or~mi-,flon do~ not meet any of the · criteria other than the fact that yes, they do have 15 people living in Chanhnssen that belong to the orgnpi~fion. Scott ~ ~orrcct. Mayor Chmiel: And of course the, nmi I respect your position Colleen in doing this but I do see that our's is not the only city that goes through the process and I do see some direct benefits to ~ city which would entail that 10~, plus that 50% which would be spent within the city on items that possibly we can find that would be a benefit again to the city or other areas within suppon~g different kinds of orgimi~flons thai need assist of those dollars. And I guess that's. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah, nbsolutely. There's no question that we can get direct benefit from it. I'm just, I don't think the total cost of gambling associat~ with crime and what not is fully explored yet. I'd be willing to withdraw my motion ff the rest of the CounSl feels they're ready to move on it. Mayor Chmiel: Airight. Would you remove yours? Councilman Wing: Yes, the second. Mayor Cluniel: Is there a motion on the floor? Councilmnn Senn: I'll move approval based on the fact that the nl~licant has met all the critmqa established by the current ordinnnce. And also to make part of this motion though that we immediately undertake the review of the policies and examine it sad detennine whether it's the proper one or the one we want to continue to go with. l~oger Knutson: To make the record clear, you should make this a one year permit. Councilman Senn: Okay, and it's a one year .permit. Councilman Wing: Second. CRy C, oun~ Meeting - ~ 11, 1993 MaycrChmiel: It'sbecnmovcdandsecmded. Anyother~? Resol~ ~A: Counchun Stun mini, Councilmn Whf mamded to approve a (m yem' gambling permit for the Rlverh Club, Inc., for the Dbabkd Amerkan V____-~mm, mi to direct ttnff to intmedhltely undertake · review or the p(dicy or the pmblins erdinance. An voted in hvor, escq~ Councilwoman l}ockendorf, nnd the ~ cnrrkd wtthm vote of 4 to L VISITOR ~ATION$; of the City Council. CouncilmanW'mg: Iguessl'mgoingto, IcmsMercdthizadmd~~~tbut after the meetins I did receive a ~!1 from a Colmial Orov~ reskJmt who staled that he had -~_mmd an affidavit improperly. Under dnress and it was ~. BasedmthattnfmmatJmwbichIbave_uwfl~andIchoc~ Roger Knutsm: Maym', cvcry~tn_~ should be direct to you. MaycrChmiel: Yes, ff you would. Alltho~respecu~itmm~bedirec~mmemdthmlwtn~ who that individunl wmfld be so that's the remcn I ~ it to Councilman Wins- Pleftse address me. ~qJn~ W'm8: ~~. ~. ~,s~~ mm ~ ~~~'sa~ ~~'t~m ~a~ nwl ~~4. ~ White, hill-* I'm not ~. Councilman WIns: Well I'm not soin8 to iden~ Mm Cliff. Cliff Whitehm' ...ckan' tim Coun~lhnan Wins stated the affidavit was secured under dmu8. ~ Win~: I ~ tim word he reed Roger was thnt !~ hud signed thtt became he was afraid of Cliff. Ibe. lieve he staled t~at he signed it ~ lnunm~ and duress becat~ ~ m a ~ ~ ~s and .he didn't City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 disappointed he had sisned it. He said he did not know he was si~ntng an affidavit, and I'm not going to identify the individual unless you state that has to occur. Roger Knutson: No, you don't have to. Councilman Wing: Then there's nothing more to be said Cliff. Cliff Whitehill: Mayor, I thought this was an open hearing wh~rc ~g was a matter of public record. We could ask questions. They would be responded to. It's impossible for us to proceed without information ~ is in the hands of one of the Council members who has stated at a public hearing, is part of the record. There's no way for us to respond to that. Councilman Wing: Call your neighbors. , C~T Whitehtll: It's on the record and that has cast this whole lX~cceding in doubt, und~ a black cloud and we simply you know are unable to clear the record... Councilman Wing: ..~vits h~ been without question, it wouldn't have changed my decision whatsoever. Those nf~lavits had very little to do with the public process and hearing. They simply didn't hold the weight the others did so. I find that one is irrelevant to my decision. Cliff Whttehill: That's directly contrary to the Minutes Mayor. He said it was the basis of his decision. If he refuses to answer, I think it makes clear what the Association you know already has said that the whole matter after the final hearing, this matter has been lacking in due process and fairness. We can't proceed. We can't respond. So the Council can do what the Council does and it doesn't change the fact as to the inability tO, for the Association to be able to complete it's presentation so, if there is a refusal to ans~. g, at some time in the future that question will be answered I can assure you because under proceedings in law in a deposition there's no immunity so it will be answered. Too bad it's going to have to be answered at a much later date. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Cliff. Is there any other visitc~ presentations? If not, we'll move right along. PUBLIC HEARING: METES AND B0t~IDS SIrlBDIVI~ION I~R LOT S, BLOCK L SUN IHDG~ INTO 2 PARt, ELS! l~t61 sUN RIDGE COURT, DAN AND ROBIN EDMUND~I~ Pnbllc Present: Name Address Jeff & Oail Moody Gareth Davios 1800 Sun Ridge Court 1831 Sun Rid~ Court Sharmin Al-Jaff:. This is part of the Sun Ridse Subdivision. 'l~ne applicant is udring Paxc~ 5 and subdividing it into two parcels A and B. We have a total area of (5.8 acres. Parcel A will have 4~ acres. ~rcel B :2 1/2 acres. Parcel A has a house under construction. Both parceis have access to sewer and water. They also have the option to a septic and well. They meet all the requirements of the ordinance. Again, it's a very simple 3effMoody: I would l~ to. J~ffMoody: Okn~ f~st of all my name is J~ff Moody. I'ma~18OOSunRidsoCo~twld~hblbolotrig~ abov~s~ Fa~ofallwewe~nev~~~wMmL Wew~tnfmmodumiS~tS:OO.byo~ house. 'Ilm's an I have to say. ~Dnvie~ MynnmeisOnrethI~vies. Ilivein 1831SmRid~Cou~whichisflmmmmuumi~oihe risht hnd side of thiL ~ne ~ si~ of the.. I ~ns tt's my only c~ncern w~ this is that wtth repul to the ' whole subdivisim~ k tl~ ~g a pr~ or tlErunmtaL..within time whole ~ 'l~'s redly my ouly a sort of precedent here...but do hnve nn objection tfitk ~ a IrecedenL Mayor Chmiel: Th,ink you. Sluumin, ~maybe you'd li~ to fmsw~ tim, fur Mr. Davl~ Patti~ lfl can sdd to that. Wne~didn'tchm~nsmuchnstheMUSAltne~ Immn2 1/2 acre zoning is the same the nme-_mi%a that Sun RJdse Court wu ~ undo. TJmberw~d wns typically lots hrgcr thnn 2 1/2 ac~s. Wncy ~ to bo subject to the I per 10 rule. 3'ney no kmfler nm. But there was a safety measure buat into the ordinan~ that said fi~ Iimse 387 mi{~. lt~ 2 1/2 .c~. zouin8 should be m-int, a,,,.a Wht we have lete is an ,ms,,n_ny large ~ ~ ~ m ~ ~ m ~ ~ ~ a you Just simply can't Set 2 1/2 acres. I don't know how much of a ~ tt really ~ City Council Meeting - Octobe~ 11, 1993 Paul Krauss: ActuAlly it is or will be quite close. With the adjacent RSF subdivision, it comes virpmlly up to lVlaycr Chmiel: If that comes directly up to tho property line, my tung is by the lVietropolitan Waste Control Commission is that it becomes mandatory to cmmect up to the sewer rather than going to a septic system. At least that's what I was told when I moved into the city and I had to change from a septic system to the city sewer and water. Paul Krauss: I'd defer some of this to the engineer but I believe our ordinance stated within 1~0 feet of a line and you have an on site sewer that fails, in those instances you're oblliated to hook up. In ~is instance these Mayor Chmiel: No, it says here that a full scale Binding plan is not necessary unless the applicant elects to have a second site. And that's my, I want to make sure that this is going to bc sewer and water. Patti Krauss: It is sewer. It's not water. At least my undcrstnnding. Sharmin AI-Jaff:. Correct. But the option remains open tlmt ff they want u) go to septic as well that is still an option for them. Don Ashworth: I don't believe so. I believe if sanitary sewer is available, the local ordinance requires connection to the sanitary sewer. Sharmin AI-Jaffi. Even though Sun Ridge has been exempted? On the comprehensive plan, Sun Ridge has the Paul Krauss: We, H yeah. We're not tn~ktng about assessments on Sun Ridge, We're talking about just the Roger Knutson: There's an ordinance provision that specifies when you have to hook up and I believe, in a second I can run upstairs and Set it if someone has the book. I believe you have to hook up within...you have a certain time to hook up. Paul Krauss: Yeah, it was nlways our understnnding thnt these lots were going to hook up to sewer in any case and...dadfy the condition on that, that's perfectly fine with us. Mayor Chmlel: Okay. Is there anyone else wishing to address this? If not, can I have a motion to dose public hem'ing7 Councilman Wing moved, Councilman Mason seconded to close the public heartng, AH voted in favor* and the motion carried, The public hearing was ck)sed, Councilman Wing: I don't have any comments at this 10 thai wasu't...you could hav~ a 15,000 squnre foot Iot..so thure was a lxotucli~ mmsu~ ~ into the mdinnnce. Cou~tlmaa Win~: Was pub~ notiflcalt~ ma~ of all th~ ~ as If mnnal ~? Shannin Al-~afl~ We ~ ~, as far ns I know but.. Coun~dmnnW'mg: Iknow thesethinpsm~'ta~Inucess. We get the m~tn~ iist. YouhavuaCD tx~-thold~tuDubuqu~th~ ~m. We try as best as w~ can. Le~lnotk~_. of that item ml~ 6. 11 City Council Meeting - Octobez 11, 1~93 Don Ashworth: May I n_ad or clarify. That would be ff feasible and meeting the distance requirements under tho ordinance. Mayor Cluniel: Okay. Alflsht. I guess the question that was ask~ is establishing ~t. You said there's one more lot that could be split? Mayor Ciuniel: Okay. That I guess would be the nnswer that you have in regard to your q~stion. Okay, is there any other discussion? Michael. Councilman Mason: With Mr. Moody's concern, and this may not be feasible but I'm wondsdng if there's a way the City, when an ordinance is changed, is ther~ any way we can figur~ out, I mean within ~tson, people affected by an ordinance like _th~___ as opposed to. I know it's put in tbe paper nnd I know notices are sent out about public hearings but once an ordinance gets changed, and in this situation you know, I'm sur~ not everyone rends the fine print in the Vill~er. Is there a way the City cnn let people know, ~ Snn Ridge Court or Timberwood or wlu~ver, that nn ordinance ~ been changed? I don't know. Mayor Chmieh I guess the only menns {hat we have is by notificntinn. We would lutv~ to send out to each of those locations indicnting that there would be those kinds of changes. Total numbers, I don't lmve the fogglest idea as to how many that might tnke. Paul Krnuss: I think in l~,neral, Councilnum Mason, we do u'y. It's far frcm a perfect process and something as smbi~uous as does it nffect me or doesn't it, We do try to notice. In fact, if you look at our m_nH~g bins, you'd see... Councilman Mason: Oh I guess what I'm looking for is in a situation where, I mean I assume that all the information was seat out, Example, for every one, when this ordinance was changed, was ev~zyone notified that lives in an area Like Sun Ridge Court of a peudin{{; ordinance change? That's ~ question I I{uess. Paul Krauss: In this instance it wasn't the o~linsace that changed as much as it was moving the MUSA line which probably ~ 500 or 600 households ~r mo~, that were in the former non MUSA ar~a. Many of those people were in ~ at 19 public hearings... We had a mailing list I think tl~ grew to about 160 people for ~mt thing. But I couldn't honestly state that I know for a fact... We did try. We did try to make a good faith attempt to do that and we ceminly... Mayor Clunlel: Any other discussion? Does auyone care to n~ a motion7 Councilwoman Docke. ndorf: Did we close the public besting? lvlayor Chmiel: Yes. Councilwoman Docke~: Okay. Mayor Chmieh We brought it back to Council 12 City C. mmcfl Meeting - OcU)tm' 11, 1993 MayoF ~: It'S item numlx~r 6, fighL Councilwo~-~ Dockmd~: Risht. lvhyorChmi~ 'I'ne~'s a motion om the floor', lnll~r~n~ Resohth~ ~)3-100: Councflwmnnn Dockendm'f moved, Couneflmmi Mns(m oemnded to spin*ore SubdivMon 4~"J3.21 as shown mn the plans dated SeptanbeF IS, 10S)3, subject to the fdimfln[ amdmon~ e 6. The applicant shall extmd muMdpal mnftary sewa* and watet Hnm to service the propmy. An voted tn Favor and the motion cnFrted nnan~mm~. 13 Ci~, Council Mee~g - Octob~ 11, 1993 PUBLIC HEARING; STREET RECONSTRUCTION AND DR&INAGE IMPROVEMENTS IN .CHANHASSEN F_~TAT~ SUBDIVISION~ AUTHORIZE PilEPARATION OF PLAN~ AND SPEC~ICATIONS, PRO~ECT 93-10. Public Present: Nme Addr~_ Virginia Hamilton 8019 Cheyenne Spur Mark Pahl 80~6 Erie Avenue Joe Betz 8107 Dakota Lane Craig Humason 8025 Cheyenne Spur Paul Sjorgren 8017 Cheyenne Spur Tom Eastman 8023 Cheyenne Spur Ken & Maril~ Stewnrt 8015 Cheyenne Avenue Rob Harrel 8035 Erie Avenue Wes & Alice Hanscm 8011 C~ye~¢ Averme Mike Kraus 8037 (~¢ymne Bill Kraus 8008 Cheyenne Steven Peterson 8021 Dnkotn Avenue Alex Kren~l 8009 Cheyenne Avenue Dan Robinson 8014 Cheyenne Avenue Amy Dvorak 800~ Dakota Avenue Marilyn Wasstnk 8004 Dakota Avenue Conrad Fiskness 80~ Cheyenne Avenue Ray Jezierski 801~ Dakota Circle Gerald Fischer 8042 Brio Avenue George & Anabol Sennings 8018 Cheyenne Avenue Oeorge Thomas 8029 Cheyenne Avenue Mayor ChmieJ called the public hearing to order. Charles Nolch: Mr. Mayor, mem~ of the CmmciL At this time I'd like to iniroduce our..~ngineer from Orr- Schelen-Mayeron Associates, Mr. David MlU~helL David's here tonight ~o provide a pmsentntion on the r~sults of the findings of the feasibilily study. I should also note that slay 3 weeks ngo we did have a neighborhood informational neigh~ meetin8 on the project. Turn out wns rehti~y Hght but there was a great deal of constructive discussion nnd we encouraged ail in ntt~n~ to also be present tonight to ~ opinions whether they're for or ngainst the project, $o with that I'H turn it over to Dave Mitchell Dave Mitchell: Thnnk you Charles. Mr. Mayor, CounciL A little history ns far ns whnt went into this project. Approximately 2 years ngo we complel~ a pavement rnnnngement study that nddressed atl the streets within the city of Cimnhassen. The nimis identified m being, have the worst streets within the city of Chanlmssen wns the area from Omnlmssen Estates. I'm going m move over here and present this in the form of overheads. The first overhead I have just shows the general location of the area that we're looking at. For members of the 14 Chanlmsen Second. What has happm~ sinc~ ~ m ~ ~ ~ m ~ ~'s ~ a ~ ~ thisnwhicht~cailtdChauhanm~~~~: It'ssimplyamplato~Lo~TandS. Anotl~n that's bern ~hu~ is Lot $ wm ~ into Wb~ britt Lots I leal 2, which is cunm~ a twin bant ;unnmmtable curb and guuun um cmvey sunm ~ We prepared, o~ n ind~mdn~ ~ ~ a soils in~ ofthe armadas aliUlc Mstory. Wlutwu found outthu~ was mywlu~ from 1 1/2to6 enemies of streets has been c~nnin~d to b~ ~ ~ ~ d~ to lxrom ~ Wht you see in ofda~ why we would ako analy~ the ~ synton to see if tim is of ~ siz~ m cc, u~ ~ ~ Chanhanm. Tais~tob~on~th~armstt2~-imL Th~arutldsMifh~i~redwmfmn~to~ littl~ bit n~re If bo wtdtet 15 CiW Council Mee~g - Octo~ 11, 1993 bids bein~ taken in March of '94. The awnrd of the project would take place in April with construction beginnin8 shortly thereaf~ in May. We're proposing to complete the project in September with the nssessment May of 1995. One item related to the schedule. Vnrlous options were discussed as we put this report of phasing this in two phases. Comments solicited from contrnctors in~ that ~is_ was really not the best struts laid out the way they were, didin fact afl'ect a nu~ority of the residents flit were phased over 2 yem's, would affect a majority of those residents ove~ the 2 years period rather than tweaking up the impact so to speak. This would actually reduce that impact if possible and would take cm'e of it in one year. The esflm_n___ted costs, and the~e costs are es~med project costs which include the engineering fees, city adminism~ve Costs, the street reconstruction is the biggest chunk at $933,400.00. Storm sewer improvements nre $229,000.00. Snnitary sewer improvements $106,000.00 and ff the city so desires watmnnin improvements of $261,600.00. Ctmrles and I benefit to the property, thereby being assessed for that benefit. What we have developed is an nssessment of $3,000.00 per unit for the existinl~ sinl~le family homes that do not have ctub and gutter. The arens that do have curb and gutter, pflmm'ity Wisely Emtes and Chanhassen 2nd Addition, we are ~1~ sn assessment of $2,750.00. What that is is a $250.00 credit for a payment that was mnde towards the curb and gutm' wheu the streets were first built. The twin home is proposed to be nssessed at ~2,100.00 for each unit. Fcr the street. The City of Omnhnssen standard policy for storm sewer assessm~mts is to assess 50~ of the project cost related to storm sewer. The assessment shown here indicated $996.00 assessment for the lots intmml to the development. There are a number of lots on the eastern border of the development that nc,~_ ~_nHy drain to the enst. Those areas that we've reduced that msessment by 50~ to $498.00 nnd the storm sewer assessment proposed for the multiple family dwellinl~s is estimated at $747.00. Total funds generated by these assessments that the sumu sewer assessments could vary depending on the project cost. But the street assessments are proposed to be fixed assessments at this time. Some items that were brought up during the public infcrmntional meeting, one of the items was a concern with trees. I went out and looked at each of these nre~s. And what we're looking at in the First Addition is appro~y 3 feet on either side of the existing street that would be impacted by a new street. Of course with sub cuts and ufiUty installation, that will go beyond that. Within the second phase where there is existing curb and gutter, the street would be plnced bnck in esse~y the same position that it is now without any expanse beyond that with the exception of' the mflity improvements. Whnt app~imately 8 of those are in localized ar~as. 4 of them being st the ~ enlrnnce and then there's another corridor...southeastem portion. What this equates out to is approximately 1 tree per lot. Or not, per 5 lots. Bxcuseme. l tree per S lots over the1291o~s. Anotherconcemwnsthephasing~~~~~ be caused by the construction. Alpdn, we feel the best ~ at this point is to do everything in one year and I~et it over with. Some of the individ~m~s nt the Ixtmary in~ within here nre definitely going ~o be affected 2 years ff this goes over a 2 yen' period. At this point ff Charles Ires any othe~ comments. Charles Fokh: Thnnk you David. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council As Dave's eluded to, drainage in terms of utilities, drainage improvements nre proposed to be based m past city policy on similar projects which is a 50/50 split. In terms of utility repair work, the sanitary sewer ~ items are something that would, we prolx~e to be ndminisuatively taken care of through the 1994 sewer r~tb pro,ram. Of course a~ain this is a bndgetnry item which will be dealt with in the coming months. In terms of the watenuain ilself, we're showing rdalivc costs associated with doing those...replacement. If this project would 80 hto a desi/n phnse, we would take a closer look and investis~tton of recmds en the watermain break tdstory over the past 15-20 years and try to determine where brinks have occtm~ and really truly define whether that's the best altmmtive to deal with 16 thissimnflon. Butn.o~n _~___wouldbeapen~ctl~.. lntmnsoftrees, ak~~_t~__tDnve'smml~med. We'v~ got some ~ idms ns fitr ns what kind of m~e t~ wouM occur. I th~nk ns we ~t tnto d~nlled input m AmyDvomk: C_modevening. My name is Amy Dvcflk. lliv~atS003DnkomAvenne. 1"ne me fl~t om the corner m yom come in. I just wanted lo ~ I did ~ the in ~fnrm~ ~ng m~l I ~o imm stone width is 31 fm~ I would ask that thts be looimd at becan~ I be~iev~ that the roads do not need to he widen to Councilm~Wing: Chades,~we~~~ Fasthntsurv~beendm~7 Ibeu~esnrvey. Ctmrlesl~lch: No. T'nenmmyhnm'tbeendoneyet. Tlmt'smelanmtthat's(Jmefftho~is~ BillKran~ I~ My name is Bill Kmm and I'm at S008 ~ My ~ Amy lam~ about the lmint m_nybe you can claflfy this fx~r me nnd Ithtnk you said you were going m ~ ~ ~ m 31. From 26 m 31, 17 City Council Mee~8 - Octo~ 11, 1993 Dave Mitchell: They're either at 30 or 31. I'm not sure. BillKrnus: Okay. So we woutd be widen~s out. We have a concem kind of down at our end of the street too. We're concerned about the trees also that may be lost. I don't personnlly have a tree that probably would 80. A concern we have is that the intdc f~om Cium 2nd down to wher~ Cheyenne meets Dakota is a downhln type of a slant. And people do have a tendency to get a little fast, The Little narrower streets tend to Imep thin~s a little bit slower and we're a Httle concerned that ff they get 3=4 more feet, they're going to 8e..t 3-4 more miles per be loss of life. I mean these people do go a Httle fast because they stnn from the UPlX~ end nnd get to our ~ They're going pretty fnst. That's a concern I'd like to mnlr~_-_- lViayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Charles. Charles Fokh: I should point out that Dave is correct. The street width that we have nt the 2nd Addition would basically remain the same. In the areas where you have a 116 and 28 foot bituminous wide mirface, The 28 would remain the same fcr that section. All you're basically adding is a foot and a half curb and lp~tcr on either end which is on either side which is technically not considered a driving ~ It's nminly considc~ a dminnge facility added to the road element. But pavement width, in terms of pavement width, it wouldn't . Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else7 Mike IOaus: My nnme is Mike Kraus. I live at 8037 Cheyenne Avenue nnd I'd like to just ask a question of the ~ here. It ~ to me that probably a good deal of the cost of this project is replacing the wntcrmains and sewers. I'd like to know if the approximate ~ of this neishboz~ which is nbout 20-25 years, is that a typical lime in which to replace these or is ttds a shorter period of time _ttm_ ~ would nommlly be expected? Maym' Chmiel: Charles. Charles Folch: In terms of utilities and sewer we aren't proposinll to replace the entire sewe~ se{pnent. Just do some spot repairs and there's a seiment about 200 feet long which does have some real bad problems that will require that segment to be replaced. Design life typically with today's utilities, yin] have a design expectancy of somewhere between 40 and 50 years on your sewer and water system. There's a lot of, especially watermain, there's a lot of factors involved with thc life. Partic, lnrly with the cast iron type material if it's in expansive clay type soils...bruaks. Chanhassen ~ does have in cemin aream corro~ve soils which t~nd to d~ the ext~tor of the pipe which will cause failtuv.. So the~ are local factors that can affect that but in general t~rrns, utilities should last 40-50 years. Cotmcilmnn Wing: And the split was 50/50 nommlly. Charles Folch: For storm sewer. Councilman Wing: Storm sewer, okay. And what h~ on water and sanitary? 18 City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 Clmdes Fotch: .~mudled by a developer. Don Admm~ We're not ~ to assess the sewer or water. bemlkin~aboutasaessmem~ But in this inmnce we*~ not. We're _rqn_nymrriqg_aboutthesueetnnd Ithink tl~ sUcet as it was put in, thes~ is no way ttmt It would survive mm~ llml 20 yem~ ~y L~ to 20 year Stcven~ I'mSteven~ IliventS021DakotaAvenne. l'li~itbrlef. I want to point mst to those of you who don't know that our streets m~ in lousy'shnpe. 1'ney need to be mplac~ and tn my opinion put tn. But I wonder if the city mt.oht not consider conln~mfl~ mm~ than u~ t~ ihe cost of this to Maym' ~: I was just soin8 to say Steve, I ma~ look that old but Fm really not. Steven ~ I know we've had some ~ _mmmt Council nmnbers and differmt ~ and Fm glad I dml't have to rand lm~ and accuse anyone. Steven Petcnmt: But any cmsideraliom you can give to us, mm tf it's m exffa 5~ e~ 10~ of lite oost, I ltdnk 19 City Council ~g - October 11, 1993 plncc. I agree with Steve, Mr. Mitchell and Clmfles here that the rosd has got no~hing but chy unde~ea~ nnd it's all tore up. All summer I had holes in front of my drivewny and the street depsnment come just 2 weeks ago nnd fill the holes nnd what my opinion is, they cnn't do nothing with it. It's too fro' gone and it's costing the city mor~ dollars. That's my opinion. I wnnt it done ns soon ns possible and I agree with Steve Peterson hem and Charles and Dave here. I want the, I agree with their project. How wide the rozd is. I noticed cars on both sides pm'ked when there's people, gr~_n_n_~ons goinl~. I ague to have the strut wider becnuse I can't I~et my vehicle between the two, where the cnrs n~ Imrked on both sides. I can't even get my c~ timm~ the middle. I ngree with the wider street nnd curb and l~tter. Thankyou. Mayor Chmiel: Good, thank you Gem'ge. Is there anyone else? Conrad Fiskness: Conrad Fimimess. I Hve at 8033 Cheyenne Avenue. I've lived there for a little over 25 years so I'm one of the first residents of the area and I think that the Council doesn't need to worry about...If I'm not mist~l~_,n, that wssn't pnrt of the city of Chnnhassen. Obviously they were not built to the stnndnrds thnt you'r~ making today nnd I ~ust wanted to make one point. We ~y need that street nnd everybody's mnde that point, I happen to because of events over the last year when the company I worked for was pttrchnsed nmi it looked like I might be moving out of stnte. Went through the process'of getting mn~k~ ~fi~y~i8 ~ atto on~ ~ done by a certified appraiser and in both instances, this would be something well for the people who are residents. You rnil~ht have not hnv¢ I~one through this process. When I got the report back, both reports, there wns one big nelp~tive on my property nnd it was the qonlity of the ~ And so we despen~ly really need it. There was n while this spring I wns afraid I'd lose n wheel on the csr..~md it's something that we need and I do share the concern of the people. When I moved there, those trees thnt am on the boulevard were nbout 2 1/2 to 3 inches in dhrneter. So even though they ar~ ash and they do tmui to be a little brittle and break off in wind storms, they nre nice trees and ff there is some way to save them, it would be worth a try. 'I'nank you. Mayc~ Chmiel: Thank you Conrad. Anyone else? · Tom Kotsonn~: My name's Tom Kotsonns. I live nt 8001 Chnn Estntos and I wonld like to re-empbn~,e we ~ need the street repaired lint I really do worry nbout the steer being widened at the cost of a number of trees. Those of us who have lived in the neighborhood for some time, have spent a fair amount of money ridding trees and seeing to it that what we lmve ts somethinl~ that ~ could be lwoud of. So to lmve a street 2 cr 3 or 4 or 5 feet wider so thnt the unf~ flow can go a little faster or a little rno~ convenience or once or twice a yem' it's a little bit tough to drive through, to elimtnnte up to 25 trees cr wha~ver it is in the neighborhood so somebody can drive through a little quicker, seems out of ldlter with the vahe of keeping those trees, Thank you very much. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Torn. Is there anyone else? ~erry Wnssink: I'm Jerry Wnssink. I live at 8004 Dakota Avenue. I know what Mr. Kotsom~ is tnndng about and I think the~'s discussed, I don't know if this has been discussed yet because I came into the meeting hte. If you look at all tho lrees that we do have in this area, you take these trees out, you're not going to have a buffer zone that you want to keep the noise down off of Hlgh~ 5. You take those trees out and you're going to have a wide open area and I don't think that's going to be too much to allow those people that are Hying that scenery in our area but by taking aH those trees, we're going to have a lot of noise coming in that area which we don't need. And I think a lo~ of people moved in that area because it was a quiet area. I think that's how Ihs neighbors would like to still keep it. Quiet. Thank you. City Council Meeting - ~ 11.1~3 homing arc _thnt wo'ro ~ a fifll m:alo ~ ~ ~ and I think a tmtm' aMmmch to tlu~ ts thaz WesHsnmn: Mym~meisWesHanmn. IlivoetSOllOm~mnz.. l'msm'ewe'reantmnmm'with~ ~tm!m~mments but I'd ll~ to call your eUmtim to whtU w~ think is a satom lnoblem. Smndxxly earlier mentioned as you ito down Cleymne, it's nil downhm- 'l'ne water, every time it rains an Inch er two. rnns are runny items thnt i!o into nn,lyzing a 10 yenr evenc One of the poims thnt wns made tl~_ _ night wns thnt we've had a couple of rains where we've hnd 2 ~ in a m_ __s~r_ of nn hmn' e~ smelbin8 like the. A lot of designs just rake into nccount..nnd we would wnnt to mmly~ eschofthme ~. Tnete's sMm~nu~__-ty 10 ~t events that are referred to a 10 yeer event. We would like to _nnn*'yze each of tlmse evems to see wtdch is actmlly the crltic~ evenL l~m' emnnimlls received at the public meelJn~ tt*l very Hkel_ y th~ this ~ 3 thnt 21 City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 underneath some beautiful trees. They're about 26 feet tall that blocks our house from the north and sunny side and from the park. And one of my concerns, we just got done paying for some street repairs over in St. PattL About $2,000.00 worth before wo moved. We don't really want to subject ourselves t~ another $4,000.00 worth of street repair over here. Financially it's a big concern. We'd like to have some money for our kids college. That aside, I know the ~ do need work. Our biggest concern though, for my husband and I, is the effect of this work on this lot behind our lot. Tearing up of nil these trees. That would expose us directly to aH the construction for one year...to the park and aH the noise that would come in from Htghway 5. It's a beau~ area. It's a quiet area. It's a peace, fid area but it won't be ff those trees have to get taken out, and that's my Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Anyone else? Bill Krnus: Mr. Mayor and Councilmen, Bill Krnus from 8008 Cheyenne. One question I'd like to ask, and I don't know if it's been addressed previously. As you come bnck in onto the prolm~ lines and onto what I guess you'd call the easement on the street there, I had to put a new driveway in because unfortunately my driveway was made like the city street. It didn't quite,..would those be repaired ssain up to the curb? Will the city put that back in? Dave Mitchell: As part of the design process what we would do is define consm~tion N~nim re~'ed fl~r the sub-cutting and repair to the streets. What we would do is propose to replace up to that limit of construction that would likely be in the neighborhood of 5 to l0 feet behind the curb. Bill Krnus: Thank you. Amy Dvorak: Amy Dvorak and I just have a question...my question is, there's a lot of people concemeA about the tree issue this evening and I'm wondering how will that be addressed other than what we've heard this evening. When I came to the infommional meeting they said anything 5 feet from the existing curb would probably be removed and now this evening I heard 3 feet and then I'm not sum exactly what that means and I'm wondering is it possible to have an nssessment done of the trees lost before a decision is a~_mnlly Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Charles. Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of Council As I mentioned, the level of effort to get into that kind of deutil to acquire that information typically extended once the lm:rject is ordered. What I would propose that we do, if yoo so choose to order the project, and this is something we've...once we get tho plans to about the 80% stage, we have another ncigh~ meeting where we invite the affected [WOlm'ty owners involved in the project to come in and look at the plans and tnlk about the extent of construction limits. What kind of impacts we're going to have for not only trees but existing, other shrubbefl~ that are in the boulevard and at that point in time, if we have a pmlm~ sddress concerns ct ther~ still are concerns from residents, you'H have the time at the project plans...to tak~ public comment at that time. I would recommend that we have another neighboflmod meeting to meet with the people. Mayor Chmiel: I guess that would be wen I think L~'~_~ived by the residents. Sit down and let you know just exactly where those trees may go or may not go and I like that position as well. That's good, Is thn'e anyone else? Don. Don Ashworth: Tying in with that. The City Council has to approve the detail plans and ~eciflcalions 22 City Cmmcil Meeting - Octot~ 11, 1~3 TomKotsmms: lJnsthavea~ TomKotsmms. Onth~widthofttmmmtway, wmfld~~ d~t~l nt whm w~ ~t to tbs..or is timt lock~? I n~n is 31. Mnym' Chmi~ 2~ to 317 something thnt's t0cked rip? to see exactly what ~ ~ !~ Imnned. Then if tt wes~ t~afly a m _ntis'_ Ihnt you could lave 10 mm'e ~ by Iwln~ng that in that ~tra 2 ~ them I think that ~ at le~t ~ bo de~ab~ at tlmt point in thne,. I think tt probnbly won't be tnirtqg the tree itse. lf b~ win be ~.o ~ lo it 3 to 4 feet In depth ~ ~ ~ will it just be debated st that ~7 What Fm wmTied about is you're Boing to crone tn with a plan and say this is the way it's ~=~ng to be and ~'n t~ ab~ m ~d~ ~ h bot U's sm basically just tho-way it's ~ lo be, That's being a ltUl~ ~ and.= it's one of the best thin~ you can mtlly ~ ~ ~ ~ m ~ ~ And I _*hini~ tOO, as Dmi ires mentioned, it's smnething that we can look at to see what those ~ am and if we can't save tbs* particular got m be a ~ espec/a~ became d a ~ ~ ~ ~ And tt was a mouhome with a car m the City Council ~g - October 11, 1993 sure that what we do is going to be the best benefit for the city in the long run. And ff it happens to go to 31, then we have to go to that but I think it's something we can look at. Dave Mil:hell: There are some other options we can explore ~ Mt. Mayer and members of the Council and that would be to, and Charles and I have ~alked about this to some extent. Not to great, length or to detail ii out yet but a couple of options that we could look at as we get into comUuction of this project would be m impose a penalty on trees _that_ we've defined to be saved and impose a penalty m the conUactor or the reverse of that would be to pay him to protect the trees and give him some incentive to take a little more care mound the roots Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, we'll make sure that that's part of the bid process rather than give them incentives any more than what he's going to get. But okay, is there anyone else wishing to address this? Dan Robinson: I'm Dan Robinson from 8014 Cheyenne and I agree with most of the people that tnllmd to you before about wanting the streets rcpabed. I'm also in favor of keeping the streets at the stone width nmi thank you for going very slowly Last time you went through our area. I don't want to see you go any faster so let's keep the streets ns. trow. Mayor Chrniel: $1rong supparter completely. Thanks Dan. Anyone etse? Councilmnn Wing moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public henrlnl~ was closed. Don Ashworth: Mt. Mayor? Mayor Chmiel: Yes Don. Don Ashworth: May I make one comment in response to, I believe it was Steve who had raised a quesgon as to can we sharpen our pencil a little more and I guess where people like Conrad Fiskaess who have been out there for a number of years, I think you can remember that this is at least the third feasibility study that we've gone through and that the two previous ones were starting I would say 8 to 10 years ago and another about 5 years ago and in those time frames we r~lly didn't have any policy to work with except for lite 100% assessmenL So the feasibility studies came back with cost estimates for the cilJzen, for the resident of like $8,000.00 and I can tell you hearings like tonight, both pmies, meaning the City Council felt they weren't able to do anytidng and the citizens that $8,000.00 we can't accept that. And we left those processes because we didn't have any alternatives so before we sutrtod this p'ocess, we sat down. I t~n~ed with the engineers. We relooked at what we might be able to do and I can truly tell you that we are trying to be a parmer in this project and we want to see it get done and we don't want to have you leave here like the residents hsd to the last two times. In otimr words, we'd like to see the project as well as yotwself and we did shaq~n our pencil Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks Don. Richard. Any discussion? Councilman Wing: Looking at a 28 foot road with curb and gutter. Minnewashta Parkway's a good example. That's 31 feet. The tree issue bethers me a little bit because on previous heatings we've spent so much time on trees that I think we've misd~ the project and no one's going to a~cuse me of not protecting ge trees. I'm on the record enough to have been ridiculed at my stand on trees but just for the neighbor, just bare in mind that we can direct this project to the point where it becomes absurd where you have to put up rctainiag walls and City Conncil Meeting - October 11, 1993 kind of stupld and I think I would Imve rather had ~e mad there and this there nnd maybe du~_t tree could have make sure that I'm upf~mt about _thi_~ ~ became ff we ~ this, the ~'s ~oin8 to be on it's way out l~tr out. Someone's ~ to pay. *l'ne~'s~topJck~~~oftt. Not 100~'buto~ething we'njustnx ~y's nctshbcwho~L BmTbod~ pay mxes and we're aU lmpl,y. Nobod~kno~~~ chanstng a lot either. So I thinir that f~n my ~ If the ~ want this ~roject, It ~y needs a~ going to get assessed. We' il lmve to vote for it. I menn once we decide to Bo aitead, you'mlloinam~ for it and it's not l~dng to be out in l~nnewmhta, lt's going to be you m Cheycnne that's lmying forit. *l'ne 40% of it so, I just want to mnir~ tt clmr. It's 606t0 is stat of the theory dght now _th~_ it's been sp~ with and deal with you lam'. I think that's what I wanted to ilet out. nptm~lmate tlmt percenlnse. But again, _d~_ t is a little differmt .titan from a historic ~ ~ ~ assessment you faced I believe was up in a $5,000.00.$6~~ br~-In~_ to rite one dm, Mawr Ouniel faced was City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well thanks for opening .a can of worms. I'm not going to touch it from here since we didn't hear anything from the nei~bors about it. I think it's been talked out and I like Charles sug~.~tou of during the preparation of plans. That we look at wine alternatives and have another meeting with the neighbe~ so we can see specifically which tre~ will be affected and take it from there. Mayor Chmiel: Oood. MichaeL Councilman Mason: I'm not sure it was a can of worms. I think ~ project is so needext ~ everyone in the area is willing to pay their fair share and I guess I think that's hopefully that's what it's all about for taxes. You pay your fair share. The tree ming obviously is a concern. If we can, without ruining the integrity of the road, if we can find out some creative ways to narww the road and put up a no pm'king sign or whatever. Yeah. Absolutely. Living in a wooded area, I share the concerns of everyone en the trees so that will certainly be up in front on this project but let's go ahead. Mayor Cluniel: Okay. Mark. Cmmciiman Senn: I gness to deal a little bit with what ]vl~ce ~id. It appem~ that everybody's kind of for it in terms of the assessment because it is badly needed but the trees issue is imlxffmm. I think everybody's dealt with that. I'd really like to see in the design process some consideration of the road width be addressed and really maybe that in combination with U~fic or speed controls because this is coming back at us countless times. It's no~ just thi~ street It's a number of other streets which abut or feed onto major thoroughfares and that sort of thing where we've got...safety and speed problems. Again if we need to be a liule more creative and use our imagination in terms of possibly looking at physical as well as other ways to centrol those speeds and that tmf~ a little bit betty. I'd like to see that sddressed before this comes back to us. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? If not, I'd look for a motion. Councilman Mason: I'll make a motion to a~o~L~ preparation of plans and specifications of Project 90-10, street reconstruction and drainage improvements in Chankassen Estates subdivision. Councilman Wing: I'll second that Mike but I just want to make mn'e that that motion includes the tree issu~ speed and traffic issue also. Councilman Mason: Absolutely. Mayor Chmiel: And looking at the width of the road. Councilman Mason: Absolutely. Resolution #93-101: Councllmn Mason moved, Councilman Wins seconded that the City Council approve the feasibility study dated September 13, 1993 as prepared by Orr-Scheten.Mayeron Am)cam, Inc. for the street reconstruction and utility improvements to the C~um~ ~ ~ mi that authorization be given to prepare the project phns and specifications for which OSM shall be designated as the project enaheer, Project No. 93-10, An voted in favor and the motrin carried unnimously, (Councilman Senn kfl the muting at this point and was not presenting to vote on any or the rem~ items) N,m, me AS~qI~,~~ ~~ l~tR Ml~~A PARKWAY Jcn'y Jolmson Dav/d Kammm~ Mark Rogers Peter & Lola Wnrtml Bm nn~lhardt Tim & Dana Nelson Sue l~mman Ltnda Scott Har~ D~m_n Jim Kemon Peter Senjm~ Chuck & Ada Anding Terry ~ Will Anenson Jerold & Jeanette Boley Dave& Mm'sa~ Borris Dave He_-,~dla_ Jo Ann Hallson Lowell & Janet Cadson lVflchael Wenncr 3755 Red Cedar Point 3901 Oiendale Drive 3940 Olendale Drive 4000 ~ ~ 3851Leslee Cm~ 3831Leslee ~ 3820 Leslee Curve 6SlO ~nnnewuhta ~ 3841 Linden ~ 935 E, Wayzata Bird, Wnyzam 74~4 ~ ~ 414~ ~ ~a~ 3811 ~ study, a one trait nssessment is bein~ lwoposed for ench residemtnl ~ nwnny lot. For ~ ~r lintels City Council l~ing . October 11, 1993 $760.00 per unit assessment which is baslcatly the same number that was presented at the feasibility study hearing back in 3ttly of '91. Since the notices were sent out we've received, ns typical, a number of written nnd verbal questions, inquiries, nnd objections to the assessments. Letters which were received prior to the Council ~lying to the ques~ons or concerns er clarify an issue of wording. I will briefly just mmunatize some of those Hawley properties...these ~ lots were tmbnfldable. We have had city stuff, pt~nnlUll stuff nmb a review of these lots and determine that to be beUdab]e they would need a variance. How~, there are typical comp lots in the area which would tend to lead to grant you a variance. But staff is basically recommending for these properties that ff the owner is going to enter into an agreement with the city declaring the pmpmy is unbuildable and have it recorded on the lsolmnT, that we will waive the assessments ns such. The Larson, I4__,u~; Wenz8 hearing and is also timber addressed in the City Manager's relx~ The ~ property ownen have two adjoining parcels of records and they've requested only one unit assessment be levied given that they exmsidcr both parcels to be one nnic Or one parceL Even if basically investing in the propmy...combined, there stttl would be enoush area to generate two units of assessments and that is what staff is recommending that it be. ~o Ann 14nHgren has questioned the number of units that was levied against her lxopmy. Otiginnlly there was a the property. The plat is no longer valid so basically we've coffected the assessment to implement the lA unit ofunits. The response wns 3. 1 for the existing home nnd 2 for the remainins property that they have which could be subdivided. Mr. Comer has questioned the number of nnits. Again, this is going to be two units being nssessecL One for tbe existinll home nnd one for the remaininll bufldnble area on the pmpeny. I-Iewassenta correct notice as such. Mr. Wenner was also was also in a _~imt~m. situation where he was incorrectly notified of over 1 unit when 2 units should be msesse& Renotiflcation was made accordingly. The I-lind, Schilling and Boley properties, and land properties, have objected to the assessment based on saying that they never use Mlnnewashtn Parkway but use alternative access out to Highway 7 or 41. These ~es can be accessed by the Parkway and were previously defined as being in the l~roject service area and therefore assessment is that we had imposed n, Lake St. Joe. Staff has concreted and their assessment unit g~ was adjusted accordingly f~*om 4 to 3 units. Staff has also received 3 letters today f~rom tbe Carlson, ~ and Lundgren Bras in reference to the Boley property. Staff has not had enough time to suffici~tly prepare, review and prepare a response to these letters that wcs~ rec~ved today. A copy of aH these have been handed out tonight to you so that you have those for the record. As ! mentioned previously, restoration of the w~k alonE the boulevards and the re~lin~g landscape plantings need to be completed. Prior to ftnnlizir~s t~ out th~ CO~ltfi~t, a ptlnCll Hst will be mn~. of th~ rl~lRinins work. Parkway to make sure that there's no outstanding items that either need to be completed or they are tmsgtis~d with prim' to the project beins fipnli~_~_ and completed. With that we would open, recommend opentns the ' assessment heating. Mayor Ciuniel: Okay, prier to that I also received 4 letters upon opening of the Council meeting and Fd these to also be read but we can't respond to them tight away because we can't do thc research to it etltm'. Don? Don Ashworth: Four letters received were from Timo~y and Dana Nelsen. It ~ as though their primary concern is that we not pay off the contractor before this project is complete. This is to assure everyone that we not doing that, we have, the contractor's not been paid for work that has not been complete and ns Charles 28 City Coun~ Mee~g - Ocmb~ 11, 199~ Tm'y~ Yourbonor,~'oftheCtt~~ Tury~withLundgrmB~J~ Way,nm Blvd. Wayzata, Ermmmom. I'd like to enter into the record the letter ~ to the City Eugixmer 'flint's a total of 68 lots. We wc~ m~ able at best, m the Boley laUpmy, to get f~ due to the city codes ~ TlmNctson: Ooodeven~g. Mynan~hTim~ Iliveat!~.4~~ Acouple~ You mmflmaxl earlier about the letter du~_ we wrote today. The ctmcem that we're being asstmm~ ~ to mtmanthl strect up front, Nothavetopa~f~~eise'sailmmmdyouandltmdtoagrcewtththat. Weam paying for lWinnewashm ~y and our area up m Red Cedsr ~ is also tn ~ need ~f cm~o ami ~uttcr, wu $498.00. And this is to be built at thc futm~ at hisl~ com,. Bvery me of us that lives on Kinp Road 29 City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 has their own well. septic and drain system. Wo do not go into the drainage system si all Wo own Kings Road. Wo let people walk and visit all the time. We don't assess I~em a fee for driving on the road which is using this road? That's the only access. It seems alittle bit unfair. How are you doing thisq Ialsolmvea ~ I need to submit for review on how they assessed our property. I also checked with n realtor and the distance that we are from this mad does not mllly give us much property value increase. And to have an assessment, Ihere should be some of that taken into account Kings Road is definitely, or excuse m~ Mtnnewashta Pmtcway is definitely not done. They're diggin~ it up ssain today. Today they're putting in new manholes because they have to refinish the road some more, They have not finished whatever that hunk of din is by the halfway. They have not taken up all the snow fences. The dirty moldy bales of hay which are questionable as to _ssnt_~,t~ purposes....where they're pafldng their vehicles off of Kinss Road, there are tires piledup. Is all that ~oin~ to be mmoved? There's a lot of thinss left open. It seems to me tho scale of use should also be put into this as they did on the Chanhassen Bstates. And I'd like to submit this right now. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you MarBle. Is there anyone else? Er-tke Wennec. Hello. My name is Milre Wenner. I live at 3801 Red Cedar Point Drive. You have a copy of my outline and a plat of my ~. We were originally assessed for me assessment which I was very ~ for. We have a bi8 back yard. Last week we got another lcttm' and said whoops, we made a mist~. You have a big yard. You're going to have 2 assessments. And in my outline I indicated we have 1_9. acres and Charles has mentioned several times tonliht the formula used was 1.4 acres. In our 1.2 acres we have let's say half of ~t i* for our property and half is for a future ~le loL Of the remaining half, a lhird of an acre is for an easement. We have a 50 foot by 300 foot easemeat across the property which is not legal ~ any future development. I spoke with Charles and he also mentioned we could put a road in the other side of yom' house which would be fight through the front yard. I don't think ltmt's very practical. We also hav~ a pond in the ba~ yard where this other tmildable lot would be and it's also is part of a wetland. Our net Itain after you sublract the easement and the pond is about ~/100ths of an acre which is about the size of a house so I don*t feel we should be given 2 assessments. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Oood. Thank you Mike. Is thero anyone else? Larry Langsweirth: Larry Langsweirth. I live at 3911 Olendale. A couple points and earlier you had menltoned that you should give benefit or Ixopeny value increases. And not living on the Padm'ay, I don't believe lhat we're going to get that. That my property's going to go up becanse of this assessmenL The other issue that I had is not all of us are able to pay for ~. We've got an interest rate of 7 1/2%. Interest nttes have gone down considerably since the project tuned, I'd like to have lh8 City consider a fair inlm'est rate based on today's ral~. And the last thing is the taxes and Chanhassen is only part of Carver County but rexes have went up 20%. My pmpc~'s up 20~ on my Pmtmrty with no improvements to my home. $750.00 assessment, that brings us almost to a 60 some percent increase this year. And a business can't mn m that and I guess I'd like to express that anybody that's in b-~iuess has Sot to somehow keep the rates c~ increases down 3% to 4% and I Just Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Lan'y. Is ~ anyone else? Terry Pdxx Terry Rixe,, 74~6 Minnewashta Parkway. I live on the very south end. I've got ~ 112 scres and it was explained to me, I have ~ lo~s with one lot being a wetland. I've got billed for 4 lots. And they also 30 11.1993 ~ ired o11o oll mine. NOW I've lot a 3 foot stmn ~ ~ ~ 100 ~ up towards my propmy and it all dmins right thrm~ my ~. So the stmm sew~ didn't smlly do me much lood at an ~re. ! have a letter to submit. Tm-yRtxe: 7456. Iti~lnVhla-hattl~rymu~a~l, Jen'yJotm_~ Hi. I'mJenyJ~at3~40OlmhleDrive~rvemlanta~a~~. It'sunder review. I live way m the north end o~ lqumnt Ac~s abmt 4 frames from ~ 7 md rm wmdeflng ~ doesn't do me any good. Any water that fana k our area tuffy hems tommis Lai0e Vtrgina and smneday I snspe~ we'H lwobnbly lmve to hnve a ntcmn sower In the~ andns Dick Wing wns nnying em'fin', ~ we go 4%. I tldnk, I ~'t~ ff~ ~ m ~ 2 ~ ~ x~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Jm3, Joimson: ..Jo my biBgcst complaint is basically I don't get any value out of this deal and I'm not willing to pay $760.00. Omn~lhnanWlng: Chades, justaclariflcaflmimthestmmwater. ~'nat'saci~lauject~mthiS~ *l'nat's not an assessed laoject~ Councilman W'mg: Ohy. Davldl~tmme~. David~r~mmemr, 4000Oemviewlkive. ItMnbthere'salessmbe~tobeleamed. lfyou ,_hlnt about the othn' peoph a~e getting Iticir ne~ street bn~ 'llley ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I ~'t our lmblic access or our deeded access, aM to mc that's amneUflng that's dear to my heart. That*s why I ~ my house. I couldn't ~ the taxes to live on a lake m I ilmught ~ ~ ~ be tim way to go 31 City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 because I have a great love for water skiing and I think all my neighbors would attest to that. But right now I can't Set the boat down the access and neither can the two friends that I ski with and you Buys can come out and ski with us but we have to drag our trailers over _that_ pinnacle where the road comes down and I Just want, I made many a phone call. I think I spoke to you Mr. Mayor over the phone regarding that and I dug my way into Charles' desk a couple times and had meetings on site with the people there doing the supervision for construction. But as I know too is when it gets into that position, when you're a supetvis~ on site, it's in contract and you can't just change something.. If it's not shown on the plan when you go into the project, it doesn't Set done. And it didn't get done and we're paying for that and I*m paying for that because I can't use thc access. I mean I hate to think that I can't sell my house someday because the guy who wants to buy my house can't ge/his trailer down. So I don't know. It's something to think about and I really wish it would go in thoro and change something like it was promised to us because that's what we wanted to do was save our ability to get down to usc our land down there by the lake. And we ~ a lot of pride in that land. We'd like to preserve that and I just wonder too, like_west side, real close to Highway 7. Three houses away from Highway 7 and I wonder who's Being to pay for my storm sewer and curb and Butter ff and when that does come in. Arc we goin~ to affiliate everyone off of lVfinnewashta Paxt-way to pay for that as well? Just a question and concerns. That's what you wanted. Thanks. Mayor Chrniel: Oood. Thank you David. Is there anyone else? Jo Ann Hallgrcn: Jo Ann Hallgren, 6860 Minnewashta Parkway. I do have a le/tm', another letter that I'd like to submit. An assessment is supposed to be an estimated increase in property value. And my piece of property is not on the Parkway. In fact I have a 460 foot easement across the outlet to Set to it, plus the part of Stratford Lane. I really don't feel that that parkway increases the value of my pwpa'ty as much as the assessment says. I didn't get any landscaping. I didn't get any sod, curb or Butter, plants, driveway aim)ns. I don't have access to sewer, water or gas. I will gladly pay for myself $760.00. The other thing I wanted to me, mgm was def/tred interest on assessments. Deferred, not defen~ interest but defen~d assessments. I'm mlirlqS about the interest. It's noL..becausc say that I stay in my place for $ years...and these are just round figures but if my assessment. was $12,000.00, in 5 years it would increase to $17,000.00. To me that's, how much more do I have to pay? I can't acce~ that. I'd like to see deferred interest also on the assessment. And I do wish to thank Charles for Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Jane/CarLson: Jane/Carlson. We Uve at 4141 Kings l~ad. We have 6 acres. A little bit tess than 6 acres. We've got 8 assessments. I think it's a little hi~ because there is some stuff that's unbufldable. But we voted against it. I mean I'm not ashamed to say that. It was brought up 3 times. We voted on it. You folks had meettnis. Mr. Win8, as a matter of fact presided at one and told us that we would not have it crammed down our throats. Well, we did and we've got and we're Payins. But beyond us $ hotmehol~ live. They live in Victoria but they're not paying one penny. They can't ge/out anywhere. Mm. Bmis and I decided we'd put a toll and then we could pay our taxes. But anyway we Just, you know, and I guess with the project that's been kind of a pain in a neck for everybody but the thing I don't really understand is the Ughts on it. Nrom Kings Road to TH 5 they're quite close together. Prom Kings Road to TH 7, they're very far apart and ff you drive down there at night and you shut your fights off, it is very dark. The lights arc very much farther apart than the ones to tho south of Kings Road. I didn't understand that pert of it either. That was my concern, and I have a letter in here already. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. 32 Knthy~ Knthy~,3755Red~PohL IcmnetotheC(xm~3yursnsomappenlapio~of ~ thnt hns been a Clnss A ~ wetlnnd. X've ~iven n If~r frmn ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ty yon n~n p__ie~Hng this. I'v~ given nH my Jnfixwmti~_ to Chnd~ find ~ you'll find nn 881~ment. LsrryWenz~l: Mynnn~lsLuTyWem~ Iliv~nt6~J(X}ldtnn~ul~~~I~whtl'd~to know is that wh~ the finnl msessment is I~,vi~ willwe hv~ n fennn~n rhnt we cnn look at apinst our ~ of ofth~ fonnuins. So l would assume even_ Lmanythatwe'ilg~tsmnethJnsthntwecnndebn~~ 'l'nank~ Pe~ Wfu~ol: Pete Warhol, 6640 MJnnowmbtn PmL-wn~ nnd I nlso mn a ~ of the PJmmnt Acre ~ they'l~ supposed to put our susps tn down lo the lnk~ nnd I'm j~]st ~ these things_ witl set dnn~ nnd my drlveww. Ilmvealightoneachs/deofthe~andth~thntuploputthedriv~mytn. Andm/ty~ the nrad~ isn't fight and... I'm sttllnot .h.q~py,~nybodywonldn't. ]Jntmostlybecnnseofth~wn~tbOlrOJOCtwnsdon~. Yenh, wudo feel Hk~ it wns Fushed upon ns. S(xne~ins tlmt w~ didn't n~nHy want fred so for~ nnd w~ didn't IJ~ th~ Wn~ it wns done. To have to live tln'mlgh tim mnddy wnshta bltms lnst wtn~ becanse I fltink ~ ~ ~ of ttm out there today is any ~, they're ~tn~ m scram~ lik~ hell to ~ done thts r~n, ~it's ~ to our ben~ which is a lxoblem Fm betting now we nmy not itet :~solv~! ff it doem% ~ ~ ~ n that I'd lilm ~ the City Attomoy to ~__s~~ is the hsue ~ I have hnmJ tt~ the City btdlt the mf~ and the trnil on tnnd that they did not hve n emanem for. And I don't know m whnt en~ this it true nlm~ thc Imtkway but I Suen rd ltk~ that question ~ Roger.S: T'nnt's news to me. Idon'tthinkthnt's~ Notknowi~ly. Idon't~_tt~_ 's~ Ro~ ~utson: Iftum the Cit~ Manam is nyins t~ mhd Is hsicany in ~ old rmdw~. 33 City Council Mee~g - Octobe~ 11, 1993 Don Ashworth: Mtnnews. d~ta Parkway exists much the same way tim TH 101 exists. There's commonly 2 rods on either side of a roadway that's 100 years old that's existed kind of forever. That's accep~ and ns long ns the road is put back into the same area that it was used for before, there's no necessity to take and pick up additional easements, whatever. Mark Rogers: Well I urge you to look into that because as I undersmM it, that is why the nad had to be moved because the City didn't have the 2 rod easement along it sad olherwise they would have just put that road wherever they wanted to. Don Ashworth: No. The only section I'm awnre of that the rondway wes moved was where a deci_'_H_ou was made really by the Council to save some large trees right in the center of the project nren. And that was the only area where the roadway was nctuany moved over. It's kind of ironic in tlmt the pressure to save the trees was through the owner who then posed the question bs. ck ns to, well now have you not exceeded the 2 rods that you previously had ns public right-of-way area and we got into some debates and we tinnily settled the issue. But that is the o~ly segment that I nm awnre of'that we went oulside of whnt would be the old ro~d section. I don't know if Charles, you're aware of any others or not. Charles Nolctc No. That's the only one I'm nwnre of. Bill Bngelhardt: The roadway is currently called a...nnd it shows up on nH the plats and nil county half sections as a 66 foot road. It was a former county road nlso so you would me that roadway based on a county turned it over to the city as a city road. And I think the nrea the gentleman is tnlking about is the fact that we There were other easements that were required but they were for dope easements for cutting back the slopes and thc majority of them were temlxmuy meats where after one year they expire when con~ is done. They revert back to the owner and that's the only easements that were taken. It was known. It is plsued as part of the road. Mark Ros~'s: Okay. And the last question is. Was with rel~trd to the fire station. The cost for repaying the lot of the fire station. Was that rolled into the project'/ Don Ashworth: No. Mayor Chmiel: No it wasn't, That's a good question because I asked that too. Councilman W'm8: Mark, before you sit down. On this concern for the road. Does this impact you e~ what's your concern there? Mark Rogers: On the driveway? Councilman Wing: Well no, no. Your concern about this easement and the shifting of the fond nnd not having. Mark Rogers: Wen my concern is obviously as a lxotnmy owner along Minnewashm Patkwny, ff in fact the city did not or does not have tm easement to put that road and trail cr they owe me some money. I mean this easement doe~ not show up on my certificate of title whereas the drnina~e easement nlong the side of my EOm Hawley:. My nnn~ is Ellen Hawley and our addross is 3703 South Cednr Drive on Red Cedar Point. Wo don't ncp_ mqy live the~. We have a ~ _smnmer cottnge thnt w~ Hve in only In the smmner. We niso own two not hnv~ to pny the assessments m those two unbuHdab~ Imreels..spoim to Cimrl~ ~ · Chsdes ~ thnt the...~ Io mn~ those loqs Imildab~ nnd...thnt w~ could ~et thnn. We don't 0dnk thnt th~*~ m ndr why m what size lots yon need m ~ m. By givin8 tM~ right awny, we sre lXedtMin8 my opp0i~m~ for anytx)dy to ever do nythin8 to that property. . ~ycr _Chmi~ '[lmnk )q:~L Is tlxm~ anyot~ dsc? Harryl~mn: My nameisHsrry~ Myot~_~z ~nddressisP. O. Box 943~ Excelsior. Idoltv~dnlghat 3820Lesl~~ I had a couple of comments about tbe emmm~ to the lVnnnewnshut ~. Ti~~ whnt, 35,31feet? Ordoestimttncludethecazrbing~ Ohy. lt*sverydifl~mltfm'metogoli~tMs. Nowl'm coming down from ~ Okn3r. rm __eomin~ down hm and whoo~ it's ~Strn~ght now ~ you cnn't, one Mawr ChmteJ: Anyone elso? DnveHcmJla: Ican'tbentHany's.~~isDnve~ Ilivont6870M]nnowashta~. IfeelI'm an objective man nnd I ttdnk my wodc..wUl bear it ont. Betn8 objective doean't meen asreetn8 wilh ovefythh-j thron~ ~ ~ It g~8 ~~ ~ ~ ~ m ~ ~ ~ I'm ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I tMnk thnt's the basic oJdndofJof p _c uninEIxcklotbosamothina_- rvosot3humnc On~~lSyan's~wowem~ 35 City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 follow up. I know my wife tried hard to get that changed. And then to followed that, ff I paid out an extra 10K and that was 15 years ago and I haven't gotten a darn thing for it yet. That came to us ns a total surprise. It was obviously someone trying to settle the ledger. Then in about 1988 we had the Bluff Creek Road goinl~. The residents there were told it's 8oing to be a 6 ton road. They were sold on that. They supported it and then they would have to pay for it. At the very last they found out it's going to be a 9 ton road and they had to support it and they didn't want a 9 ton road. All it did was devalue their property more becanse they h~ the heavy truck come. Now comes along in 1991. July 8th I made a pitch here on the proposal, the Pnflcwny proposal. I asked certain questions on the financing. July 22nd, Bill Engelhardt came back with a response. And by the way it was 1.81 Charles. 1.8 per acre, not IA. How that got c~nged I don't know because it was initiany 1.8. Chnrles Folch: We're using 1.4. Dave ~ But I'm saying the Minutes say 1.8. Charles Nolch: That was originally ~ cortu~ Dave Headla: Yeah, and that's what we sold the project on. That's my point. We were sold on it one wn~ but we set different answers. Charles Nolch: No, it was changed. Dave I4_~,~d~n: Anyway, let's see here. We were told it was 8oing to be $758.00 per unit and in a little bit I'll get on to what it is and when I ~ about our land, we had 10 heres. I asked about our neighbors. We were going to get assessed one unit. Now when we're trying to settle the general ledger, we're getting hit thousands of dollars for it. Totally out of what it was before~ And the last thing I got upset about is afire' I ~ot my assessments I sent a letter to the city and I think it was 5 questions and ensineering stnt~ them very pointedly. He couldn't...my response was a total colorless memo. Not one single question was answered. I have a hard time dealing with something like that. Okay. Now on July 8, 1991 I sat at the Council meeting that discuss these projects and I'd like to quote from that, the Minutes. July 8th '91. I'm talking and it says, now the last point is that right now I'm assessed one unit and I have no problem at all with that assessment. You remember, or you know, you remember safety. That's when we were talking about how important safety was on the paflcway. One kid gets picked off and then you think about yom' $1,250.00 and I think we neod it. 'l'nere's that much waft. If I get hit for one lot now and one assessment, I would like to see this one assessment nmi not have to pay int~st on the other 16. Now what happens ff I have to pay interest on that 16, although nobody in my place is using it. Just our family there. You're costing me over $200.00 a month and I just don't think that's right. I would have to pay $200.00 per month and nobody's using it and hopefully won't be for quite a while. As we went on..,a note obviously was to Bill asking...Okay then we met again on July 22nd of '91. And this is a Council meeting and this is Bill Engelhardt speaking. And he...The six issues that I focused on that I think are the major concerns of this partic~ project is to 8o on then to number $. The cost of the project and number 6, the method of funding the project. Now we're..,ancl Bill's taikins. Mr. Dave Headla commented on assessment policy. He'd like to see deferred assessments for the raw land srea. The City would defer assessments. They would have to be lovied but deferred. But we suggest at a minimum of 1 unit st tha time with any additional unt_ts asse2sed when the lxoperty is develol~l tkrongh developer's agreements and when the exact number of units can be calculated based on their development. Those w~e My words. We listened it...we thought that was absolutely fair. And support that. On Harry...l'm sorry if I'm nttspronoun~e these names. And Harry's speaking and he says, well ff we're being assessed for Minnewashta Parkway, that kind of turned me off 36 $758,(X) per n_nit_ number was what the xuiden,ts would be 8ssesscd for this proje~ Is that number · bish numbcrcristhatnmnlx~ronettm_t'smbjecttogosoothcrnorth? MaycrChmi~ To the best ~ my ~ lcast~.~. Was huught down to SI,2S0~0. Wemitdownaweek~lfmMmda~. laslmd~tolook we've done this in other locationL I my what's just for one is just fur the oilier fred that's why it's down to that Councilman Wins: Dave, what's the point here? You*re mlktn8 $75(~00-$758.00. Dave Headla: $7S8.00 1 mcan~ · Dave I4~41.: Yes, my ~ was in Green Acr~. · Clmies ~ Any le~d msessmmt m ~ Ac~ roms ~ woad.. DaveI-Im~ Psrd~? Ididn'thesrthat. Maym' _t~hmiel: That's right. City Council Meetin~ - October 11, 1993 Roler Knutson: 7.6. Whatever thc interest was. Mayor Chmiel: Whatever it was. 7 1/2% or. Councilman Wing: Dave, I was losing Dave's position here. You're con~ that you're being hit for more than one unit? Dave Headla: Yes. Councilman Wing: Okay. And I'm just going to say to you, I had never SUPlnmed ttmL I'm not aware that the Council since my term has ever supported that and I don't think it's going to iuippea %oslu so maybe the interest that Mrs. Hallgren brought up, that's a concern. I think we can discuss thai. But I don't think we've over, on this Council assessed open acreage more than 1 unit until it develops and I don't see that happening to you either. Dave I-Ie~__ la~ I'm payin8 for thousands of dollars. Councilman Wins: It's on paper right so wait until we Bet done here. Dave Headla: That's thc only way wc communicate in the mall_ Councilman Wing: I just think it maybe is appropriate to let that lie for a minute and see where the Council is going to 8o with it. I've heard your concerns and I share it with you. There's no questiou about it, I'm not going to suppon more than one unit for open land, ff that helps at all But I can't address the interest because that's another issue. Dave He~__~l~_._ I lost my train of thousht. I was trying to Set back to. Mayor Chmiel: That's what we were trying to do, no. Dave Neadia: When you go for a project, get thc funding. Know where your mo~-y ts from. Th~ people are paying for it. Let them know firsL If you would have let us know, then no way would I pay thousands of dollars for... Mayor Chmiel: Oood. Thank you Dave. Bill. Bill Engelhardt: Your Honor. Cotdd I just respond to Mr. Headla hfie~y. I'm Bill Enielhardt. Just to clarify, and I did talk to Mr. Headia on the phone. Originally at the public hearinse you were **n~ng about assessing raw land at 1.8 units per acre. And at the testimony by people at the public heatings, they said we can't get 1.8 units per acre or essentially 2 lots per acre. And we said, okay. When we do tho assessment roll we'll examine that We did, We went down to 1.4 so you're actually being assessed fewer units than 1.8. In the case of Mr. Headla, there's a lxeliminaty plat in called Heritage Development. The desi/pters on it are RLK and according to Mr. Headla's pmlm~ is included h that plat and ho was assessed the number of units that were in that plat, which was 6. So that, just to clarify that for you. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks. Is there anyone else? 38 MayorChmiel: Thnnk you Sue. lstheremyoneeisc? workinsw~na~an. I~krm~~~ Ihs~loseemyc~tygn~in~~~a minuS. T'nisisnot...thisis~ Id~n'towntholxOlm~. Ihav~nocontrol~ All~thnt 8oing to mcoumse d~velopnm~ Wewe~n"t~toencomn~th~sal~ofthntlnnd. We dtdn't wnnt to force ~ or not nnd thnt's a killer in llse~. If I wns to nddress yonr ~ ~ ~ ~ I ~ sell my Mm:eL Jo Ann Hallgnm: Well that's no ~. as fn' as Pm eoncenml becnnse ~t's slill something ~ ~ m ~ ~ byme. 39 City Council Meet~g - October 11, 1993 Councilman Wing: Well the developer might pay for it but the truth, ff I sell my lot that's got 4 units assessed against it, st some point it's going to get paid. No question. Jo Ann Hnllgren: Okay, but why couldn't, why does it have to be down there under my nnme when my land ts developed you certainly have to approve it. Approve everything about it. The number of lots. Then why don't you assess that? You don't know how many lots. I noticed that the city is pmtecflns their back. The letter says if there are more units in this development, they will have to be paid for. But it doesn't say maybe by chance there would be less units. That assessment still sticks on my In'Operty and to be ~ to get it lowered after how many years would be. You know how things work but I just was hoping that you camld do it ~y. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Jo Ann. Anyoue else? Marl~ Borrls: Can I readdress something? Mayo~ Chmiel: Sure. Margie Borris: I don't recall ff we got an answer to, is the contractor being paid after or before the totaL..of the project7 Because a lot of was said about those lights. They're made out of fiberglass. They tip. They're not exactly straight, like the road. But I also want you to know that I'm not upset with my Victoria friends or neiBhbors because they don't necessarily have to pay for this. I really do think a review should be done on the use of the sewer system. The percenlal~. What the ac_u_,_,,1 value of your home will increase. To do it in a percentnge basis so it's a little bit mc~e fair. We did get a lot crammed our throats with no communication ns to different changes. Whether it's l~t or 1.8. That isn't a whole lot and I think what you'll find is you're going to get a lot of letters and I know in our case, if you think you could put another house on our lot, you're a duck because it's wetlands. And I think you're 8oing to find _th~___t you're going to have to reduce the number of houses that you're nssessing. Ifwego from 2to I or they ~ from4 to 3 or they go from 5 to 3 or something likethat, you're going to lose a lot of these $760.00 units. How is that going to be compensated? Are yon then going to change it? Also if we_and it's on review, it says that this nmount is to be paid within 30 days af~ the hearing date. Is thnt today? Roger Knutson: You don't have to pay it within 30 days nftcr thc nssessment. If you want to avoid paying any l~c Borris: No, I'm going to give you cash. And you may not like it but it's going to cash. Don Ashworth: If it's within 30 days of the final hearin& So if the Council acts this eveni~. MarBle Borris: It doesn't appear that way in this letter. Don Ashworth: It appears though the Council will table notion tonight to review the questions that have been posed. So the 30 day dock would not stnn nt least until October 25th. Margle Borris: Do you think it's going to be done by then? lVlay~r Chmiel: I want to see some answers to Ihe questions that wese posed hem this ev~_ lng. mean if you're walkins, it'sblack~~~'t~ It's lit~ it's nice and evm, evm, even and bloop. Even, even. Bloop. It'sirregn~nr. I really think you need to go and acmn_ ny go over ther~ Tnkealnokntthoselamp it~ installed. The~ was a problem in putting the trail tbropgh ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ny ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ wtflng in nnd Ih= pole hnsn't beea put up. l'm not sure exactly ~ ~ ~ nmy have ~ to __tmi_*ht we've cm~acted NSP to have ttm lt.eh~ put in sepmat= frmn ~ Milmewlts~a ~ cmtrnctm's project. l~Borris: I would just like to see you goys out thcre. I'dlfl~toseey~udrlve~~ ]~lyor Chmi~l.' RI~IL WO'I~ awaro of thnt_ Mnrgie Bonts: I don't know, if y~m're IlOlnS to robie it, flne,.,nnd I win imy you cash becanse I don't wnnt to paynt7 t/2,5 l~cr 10 1/2. Whntm, eryou say. Iwiillmyitbutitsimuldbefnirinnccwdnnc~wilhthe...who PemWadtoi: One~ IwnsJustwondntn~thisHIlteb(xtlevmd. You some people got one nnd some didn't. It look n lot bettcr out. Blncktoppedtothecm~o. Ijust, Idm'tknowlfmyon~cnngiv~mennnnswer on that... May~r Chmiel: Well I do a bunch of dlffermt d~n~ in tho city so they nmy put a mow~ in my hand yet. Councilman Mnso= Wen yon're the weed inspectw aren't yon? 41 City Council ~g - October 11, 1993 Maym- Chmiel: I sm the weed inspector besides. Yes sir. Lowell Carlson: Yeah, Lowell Carlson, 4141 Kings Rind. I guess I esa't figure out. now what is tlm..~f you building a house and tf you don't have sewer and water. How many acres do you got to have to build a house in the city of Chanhnssen? Mayc~ Chmiel: Lowell Csrlson: Mayor Chmiel: Lowell Carlson: Wittfin tho MUSA line'/ Ou~de tho MUSA lino? Depending upon where it's nt. If it's wi?bin the MUSA line cr outside the MUSA line. In Kings Road, in that particular. V~uu class is that'? Margle Borris: I think it's outside because we had to get a variance when we only had, we oflginally had 2 1/2 ncres bcfot~..we had to get a varinnce because it was too small and you needed 5 acres and that was in 1985-86. We received no notification that it's changed. · Don Ashworth: Mr. Carlson's property, if they came in to develop that, you would require _dm_t_ they extend sewer and water to the ~olm~ and the lots could not be smaller than 15,000 square feet. Paul Krntms: That's true. I think Mr. Carlson would niso have to deal with the fact thnt he has a riparian lot nl~tinst Lake St. Joe which is a similar situation that Ltmdgren had to deal with. Becanse it's designated ns a natural lake, the first tier of lots has to be...but it is cerUtinly possible, Cotmcilman Wing: It's within the MUSA boundary~ Paul Kranss: Oh yes. Lowell Carlson: So how do you come up with units, that kind of units off of that particular si_t,m_,qo,m? I mean if there's for instance that's 2 acres and 2 acres per house and what'd you say, 100 square feet. Panl Krauss: Well it would nc_u_mlly have to be laid out. The first tier of lots would have to be 40,000 square feet. After that it could down to 15,000 square feet, So ff there was a street inside there mid the home closest to the ~,~ would be 40,000. Bvn3,Mnl{ else would be small Lowell Carlson: Okay, and these tmits now that you're tnllring about trying to charge mc, there's 8 units there. How'd you como up with that7 I mean ns far ns how many square feet per unit since you're charging us on that for that road? Like 8 units, how do you come up with a deal like that? Bill Bngolhardt: We took the number of ac~,s, mw land acres. Exacted approxinmtely 15% for roadways, local roadways within the development. And then we looked at whether there was any wetlands on it and deducted for that. Any steep slopes, we deducted fc~ that, The balance of the final acre~o charged was 1.4. city Councn Meeting - Octolxr IL 199~ Lowell Cadson: So if that never did set deve~ you're stilL..you'm saying that's a fair swap cra fair Nor 8 tmits to go on there? lmenny~u'rechargin~8~. Ifnewcrandwatca'nc. vercomesupR3n_m~Rond. Now what imv~ you Sot? you'd be able to get 8 units on the prolm~. Lowell--: Yeahif lmtlmennit'dl~bnblyne~rinmy~eitlgotmblyne~r~~ I don't know. x'n have to took nt tha~ I menn yon know. We do have a joint powers aqpmmtmlt with the City of Victoria with an assessment on Victorin. I just hsd om quesIlo~ My name is Jmxy Kortslgd. Iimvml~ntFJngsRond~In~ be zoned for IIml. JerryKor~_?rd: Sotheremsttl~ IBuessilpim'miceisnoreas(mnottoknowanylhin~aboot~ill:~tif City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 issues that have been given to Oiarl~ in regards to all tl~ questions and h~mght forward and tn'lng _this back to Council on thc 25th of October. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Mr. lVlayor, do we keep the public hearing open? Mayor Clunicl: We will keep the public hearing open. We will not close the public hearing. Roger Knutson: You're continuing it until th~ next meeting, October 25th is it'/ Mayor Cinniel: October ~th and I would tike to get a secomt to that. Councilman WinS: Absolutely. Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second? Councilman Wins: Yes. Within some specifics. If you're ,,lrt,~g notes. Victmta was a main issue. That's one I picked up on I want to hear. Pleasant Acres has several problems. Steps and driveway and that driveway was supposed to be pmtected. I don't know what occutr~ there. That should be accessible. Llsht spacins I've had several phone calls on. What else did I miss? Councilman Mason: The variance issue that Mrs. Hawley brought up. I want to know more about that. I think she raises several valid points now and yeah, I had the access down also. I mean that's, come on. They clean up before any payment. That punch list idea. I hope. I want to see what's goin8 on with that. I tmd~rstand that maybe the job isn't 100% before it's finished but holy cow. We're not... Mayor Cluniel: But I think everybody's getting their 20% worth of the other 80% anyway. So hopefully, and we will follow through with that portion as well Making sure that everything is done ~giy. So with that we have a motion on the floor with a second to table to the October ~th and keep the public hearing until then. Any other discussion? Councilman Mason: I don't know ff now is the time or the time is in 2 weeks but this enter into agrcement, j/mt say whether it's buildable or not. Would that ever hold up in Coml? Roger Knutson: I think what Charles was talkin8 about is a conservatimi easement. Councilman Mason: Specifically you we~ u~n~ about. I mean is there a dlffere~u:e between agreeing never to build on anything or to give it a conservs_ti_on? Roger Knutson: No. Essentially you can't do anything on a conservagon easement area. It's a no build area. Mrs. Hawley: Could you repeat that? Roger Knutson: A conservation easement means you can't build on yom' property. Mark Rogers: You or anybody else. Mayor Chndel moral, Coundlman Wing secombd to tabk action m the ammment bmriq b' Mh,,,~mshtn l'nrkwa.v Improvanent PrMect 90..1S and keep the public bearbS open mtn the Oetd)m' :IS, 1003 City Council meetins. AU voUd tn hvm' and the motion cankd. PI, JBLI(~ llEARIN~; MQDI~I(~ATION TO TAX IN(~REMENT DLSTRICTS 2-1 AND 3-~ DS:~PMEt~ InSTruCT NO, 2, ToddOeflmtdt: lVir. lVlayor and CounciL 'i'nJspnstsununa'itwnsyour~toholdapublic~in regards Ix) a chauge in TIF IY~ 2-1 and 2-2 and Dev~loiume~ Disuk:t No. 2. It/ncc~pors~ m t~ DonAshwoflh: I'dmak~ou~ccrrecfiim. Wehave~olis~mlyfmticipm~d~nsapmr~oftheplan. So,nctimes they cmn be immmmm. Wo hsv~'t ~ the fustMlily study f~ the collam~ rond tt~'s Sob~ to be on the mulh end. Todd has simmS., a million dolhm and I~'s showing lm~ a pomuial spli~ ~ ci~ that Ryan is doing, ltinchdesaeom~roed, lt'snotacostthnt'sgolngtobeeqnnnysplit, Numberm~,rm feasibility study but secondly, there nrc too tomy phyers to consider thnt it's Just soins to be equnlly split by these two. May~rChmicl: Okay. Verysood. Ilikethatclm/flcaf/~ Olay, ~ else Todd? Maym'Chmiel: Ohy. Aslmeutioned~tM, isalmblk:hemt~ lfyouhav~anycoum~roprdJnsth~ modif~ of this tax incrunent ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~. If see~ no~, Fd ii~ a motion to close the publi~ besting. Coundlman Mason moved~ ~ Dockfndm~ memded to ckm the public bern. htS. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hem'ln[ was closed. Counc~w~mn Do~ke~Jod: I wouldmov~~ Councilman Maso~ Second. Resohtion ~3-102: Councilwoman Dockmdoff moved, Cma~kmn Masm smmkd m approvt · City Council Meeting - October' 11, 1993 resolution modffyin8 Tax Increment Districts 2-1 and 2-2 and Devdopment District No, 2. Ail voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVE C0~qTRA~ l~R ~ENIOR L~O~tGE L~IE, Councilman Mason-* Mr. Maycr, I would move approval of this bet*c~e we Bet staff rcport in that I think some of us felt it shouldn't have been pulled from the Consent Agenda in the first place. I think it's a good idea and I would move approval of Scnior Linkage Line contract ap~ Unless of course lvlr. Knmss wants to give the report. Or whoever would. lVlaycr Chrniel: I don't think it's really n___pcessary because we had it the last time. And the only questim and concerns were, at that time was regarding the Senior Cenlm' input from this and these were people who really had done evcrythin8 that they had, in fact they arc strongly in ~ of this and at least we coveted evea3qhlng from that aspect of it. So I would accept that motion. Councilwoman Dockendmf: And I would second it. Maym' CiunieJ: Motion and second. Any other discrmion? Councilman Mason moved, Counciiwonmn Dockendm*f seconded to approve the contract r0r the Senior Linkase Lhe, All voted in flavor find the motion cra*fred. REVIEW ALIGNMENT ALTERNATIVES FOR THE EXTEN~O~N OF N~'~ pER(~E Duw~__fl PR~ Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, I'll just briefly introduce Bill on this one. About a month ago, well first of all. Of course there's been extensive action on Ncz Pcrce culminating with thc Comr~'s directive to enter condemnation action to obtain rlght-of-way...and we were asked to reconsider that...to do so. Sometime after that meetins we had one resident get up at a Visitor's Presentation and offer two alternatives that he asked you to look at. One. well I'm going to let Bill describe what they wcrc but they offered a vaflcty of differe~ connections and cul-de-sack~g of streets in the~e and since that meeting I had another individual from the same neighborhood offer a third alternative. Based up(m your directions after tho Visitor Prescntalton, we brought Mr. Engelhardt in to take a look at that and compare that to the selected alternative which would bo the comlection that's been illustrated now for some period of years. I think it's important to note that we were not spcciflcaUy asked to revisit what Frank Beddor had termed his solution. That was heavily explored at a number of staff meetinss and staff repot~ prior to that. Thc specific charge was to look at these new alternatives that had been sugsested and that's what we brought Bill in to do. You will remember that we asked for an ~ view of this thing to bring a fresh, a somewhat fresh look at this and I think Bill's accomplished th,r_ purpose. With that I think I'll just pass this over to Bill so he can sire you his findinss. Bill Engelhardt: Your Honm', memb~s of tho Council. As Paul indicated, we were asked to give an overview of the different alternatives susgest~ for the Nez Perce area and one thing that struck us very ~ right at the beginning is that all of the altcmativcs that thc people had brought forward wcrc dealing s~y with a individual area. W]lether it be the !-nt~_~ Lucy Road area or the Troendle area and not focusing back on the Nez Pea-ce alignment that was really trader cons~ when this whole thing started. And in fact all of the alternatives that were offered showed Nez Perce as eiltter a T intersection or 8c_umlly the ctn'valinear roadway which is prcf~. So I think you have to focus, I've got some clear films and can put ~ up and you've got wasa T l~ter~-ticm in this~ which -?i~ show a ~ lo Trtmndle Circle, Ptatxea~ Lmm, Plensnnt Vf~-w ~ 'l'ne ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ is _thnt_ we f~lt tl~ wns mc~ tree ~ to be substan_tinfly more than gotng with the lntu~atic~ and that's what was m:cmmm~M to the Ci~ Ctmm:tL Was the cmN'nlin~ ~ The ~ smmu~ AUm~ C m ~ on t~.~ ~ this thia~eaakr21roadway. Youhawthemmeaithe~__fenm~lttyandalilnmm~m~ I issue, as did bo~ of th~ :mdways, of path of least msimnce and which way is a resident nm~ ~ m ~ h radar to get to a particular d~stinaflon, lnctdmmlly, W~ don't frei that any of the almmtivu are ip~ng m necenarily increue t ~ m ~ VW ~ I think my ~ in th~ report was that ptmple Ihst Lake Lucy Road and Nez Ptm~ intmm:t~n. You would l~abiy hav~ a st~ at Nez Pm~ ~ ~ ~ wedt. It is not funatimal in the city. It'salmnotfunatkmlf~themsidtaa ~mtliv~intheanm. Taeseam local roadways that they would be containing. So my mix~t was mT, it'. ] not a tmffia ~ of a mlfflc City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 difference~ would be. See how the roadway would serve the local area. And the reality is, and the fact of the mauer is, all of the alternatives that were offered still construct the Nez ~ in this same basic locmion. Whether it's curvalinear or T intersection and we would reco~ the curvallnear ali~unent. Mayor Cluniel: Okay. Thank yon Bill. As I see this, basically there's no formal action basic, ally required unless Council has any other direction to give to staff and I would see that we would still May with the proposed preset direction of having the preferred alignment ns we had done lX~Viously with the curvalinear all,merit Don Ashworth: I would agree. You have selected an alternative. You need not carry out any additional action if that remains ns the alternative that you wish to stay with. If there has been a prepondumnce of the evidence presented swaying to one of the other alignments, the City Council would have the right to vote and select that altenmtive. But again, it's kind of down to the preponderance of the evidence having to support some other alignment. If you did nothing on it, the selected alignment would stay in place. Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Councilwoman Dockendoff: I recall tlmt there wns a very strong feeling frc~ some of the members of the Council that thnt be a T intersection in order to reduce the tendency to swing nrotmd that cmve. Bill, could you just go through briefly. I can't see a lot of differences but you know I'm just looking at a plat so. Bill Bngelhardt: Tho major difference, there is not a lot of difference to really make. This is the T intersection where we're coming straight into Piensnnt View nmi reconstructing, or Peaceful Lane and then reconstructing over to Pleasant View. And I've got a copy of the, maybe I can lay that on there. Maybe that will work. Lots We're not following the slope around and so what happens is that your grading limits to actually coustn~ the roadway both downslope and upslope get expanded out and we have to take more room, mo~ right-of-way. We take more uues. That ~ of ~g. Councilwoman Dockendorf: So there is a big difference? Bill Engelhardl: There is a subslantial difference on the amount of construction area that's needed for that pm~iculm' alignment. This one, it does have also the added benefit that these partioflnr nre~ would be vncat~ and they would come back to thc, those nre existing right-of-way. 'I'nat is existing right-of-way. That would come back to the adjoining ~ so those prope~ies in effect would get additional room. Councilwoman Dockendorf: And there's still a possibility of putting a stop sign along there somewhere? Bill Engelh_,m/U You would still have the three way stop right here. Bill Engelhardu And then you would also have another stop here. They don't meet warrants and you try to establish the warrants for a stop sign but I can speak from personal experience where I live on a short cut 'l'ney 48 City Council ~ - Octobu' 11, 1993 call it the New Madret short cut v,,here I live artd we imve a similar simmim~ wbe~ nffic comes ~ ~ ~ northandl'm on this sa~'*__., And we fousht ~ 3-4 ~ to set a stop sign at this 3 way stop si~n. Wkeathey tell you dmt it doesn't meet wanmlts, in 7 years I've nevw seen an accident at thst psrticn~m' stop sign- Soyou a tendency to mn that stop dgn became -n of a redden it appmm, And ttmt's a dansemm .simatio~ ttz~'s no CouncilnumMaso~ t~stiot Ifweeadupaoing~~A, orB, canwe~etanother~~? rm asmmin~ th~c will be a stop sign m Lai~ Lucy and Nix Puce. We're talking aboat one down at what wm on You know around that curvt I mean a stop stg~ Mayor Chndel: Okay, as it comes ac:on ~,t',, lucy Road? Ce~n_~m,m lVhson: wensayevena~Ttnend~~ Anywher~in~rt Whsr~rohsppmbefm~a~cm ChadcsNolch: l ~idnk as Bfll tried to point out, at least the tnm~;itml ~. We~ltkem~~ . motodst's ~t f~ the installation of the sign ~ th~ can also kind of inmiliv~yundm~mnd *trot tl~ is CouadlmmMssorc Well I'm not evm sayins, Imeanfor~ Howcome ~dm~___stopsign~m Pleasant View where it does that double dBht turn? 49 City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 Councilman Mason: You know, regardless of whether we do anything tonight or not, I think a lot of people have put in an awful lot of time oo thi, issue and I think it's been time well spent. I think of Mr. Donna and Mr. Rogers, who came up with a lot of alternatives and, ns fi~sUnting ns it is working with the process, and I know sometimes you win and sometimes you lo~e. l've npprec~ the way, at times it's been contentious I think nil the way around but I'm hoping that we've nil ~ some respect or what~ver throughout this lX'OCeSs Mayor Chmiel: Good. Any other discussion7 Heating none then we'll not requi~ any formal action and stick Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor? There are several people that wish to have nn oplx~unity to speak. I understand it's not n formal public hearing but I had told them that in nil ~ty that they would be given such an Roger Knutsom Mayor, just to clarify to m~ire sum I understand it. You have nppmved Altmmttive A, is that Mayor Chmiel: That's ~ Councilman Mason: Quite some time ago. Mayor Chmiel: Yes. That's what I indicated. Thank you Roger for making sure I said things right. Councilman Mason: No, we did approve the cmvalinear but there was some dlsoL~i__on ns to whether we wanted to go to the T interseclion or not and it never went past that stage. Mayor Chmiel: No. Councilman Mason: I mean that's not saying it can't go anywhere... Mayor Chmiel: Right before I said the preferred alignment of Nez Perce is the cmvalinear alignment, Alternate Councilman Wing: We tried to compromise now that ff this was to go through, we would try to minimize thc traffic input which was stop signs at Nez Pere~ and Lake Lucy, Troendle and for sure a T intersection. Mayor Cluniel: Maybe at Troendie. Councilman Wing: But a T intm~zction forces right tums where you dou't have this curvnlinatm~ let's get going here. Councilwoman Dockendorf: But if you have a stop sign there and you enforce it for n month. Councilman Wing: I agree. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. If Paul said that he gain'anted he's let some people speak, I'll Ipmrantee that. Who 50 Council mee4ing I went to suddenly it hnd chnnged to It~ ~ ~n'v~ nnd tt could be Ihat I missed a meeting. I'mnotsurewhnt~in~ Imtllydm't~inklmtssedameettn$~l~there~ quit~ a bit of disctmioa thnt you were goin~ to go with the T nad I cnn't explntn whnt ~ Anywny, I Driv~ ~mugh Vtn~and Court, Tmmdi~ if cma~! to Pkaam~ Vi~ Road ia g~btg to go m a lX~h of kast resistance. Ithinkyou'dalla/p~emthnt- 'l'neattlioesmloezplnintbestopsi~s~ymjustdiduplmm, whichwlllencomagetrnfficm~~~d~~. Lnk~LucyRond. Irendtt~tosnyas~ of whnt we do h~n~, it's n~ally not going to clmn~ a whole lot for th~ folks m x~"- ~. Whnt we n~d to do · to do now ts go over n f~w ~ ttt~ I see to our Allnm~ D. In loddng nt whnt they ~ ~ ~ ~ way. We really don't have n ~.ns to whether with ~ A ~ in n T in fl~ fond er remove! trnffic is golnl~ to be cmtted by a thru slreet. Wheth~ it's 2 c~s n da~ or 10 c~s a ds~, Ihe n~t ~ is, th~ requimi to the current ?__nn_- l~aalcostoverandnbovewlmtwe'miookin~at. AmmllyI~httmttmta getthnt to, tnto the study. NezPem~Ddve~lnmtnn~tnncul-d~-sn~ Thntseemstobenfwttt~ excenent. It comes to the door. Idon't~mtnnyth_ ~.~clmerthantlnC ~t~f~'bettn'~~by nffccl~ by the ensemems of Altmmte B stnnd to ?~_n the most from ~nnting tho~ ~ so I dm't see that it's going to be a Im~ pmblnn to I~t those ~semenls, Almmalivus A and B lncms~ access to Excelsior, increasing traffic in front of my home bnt I also lmv~ cmcm~s about lmw we'r~ ~d~qi to m:~np th~ flmmnnds 51 ~ty Cxmncil Mce~g - Oetotmr 11, 1993 and maybe hundred thousands of dollars tlmt we're going to spend on this lawsuit thnt's pending. Last but not least it will bring this issue to a long awaited dose. So for these rcasons I would like to appeal to the CRT Council members that they act on thc request of the residents directly affected by this mad extension and to mntre a motion for the development of the proposal for Alternate E. I would also like to add that I fred that Alternative A is the least desirable because of what it will do. It allows the roadway fi'ce of resistance thnt will encomase short cutting and speeding and this would not be shifting the problem fixnn Lake Lucy onto Nex Pcrce. I think we'd only be multiplying them. Thank you very much. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there anyone else? Stuart Hoam: I'm Smart Hoam, 6745 Amhem Lane in Eden Pmifle. ~ owner on Nex ~ Road with my mother at the Vincwood Addition. I had a couple of quesficm. I think I know the answer but I would like you to address them hcre~ First, when we developed Vinewood we were assessed in item 8 of the develolm' contract, the app~t shall conm'bute $1,800.00 to the city for future extension of Nez Perce Drive to Pleasant View Road. My attorney in Tuscon and my attorney in Boston, not my attorney here. I haven't dealt with him yet. Both of them agree, and the one in Tuscon teaches at the University of Arizona nmi the subject is conuacts. Indicntcs that contract law simply wouldn't hold thnt ff I nm held to ~ conuact, nmi you don't put Nez Perce Road through, Nez Pcrce Drive through to Pleasant View Road, I get my $1,800.00 back. Roger, do you have a conuncnt on that7 I mean I've talked with the Assistant City Engineer nmi Dnvld says, well. I don't see how I could keep it but pcdlaps you lmve different thoughts. Roger Knutson: If that's why we collected the money... Smart Hoam: Now I have another question. I'm holding in my hands the development agreement for Troendle Addition which says that developers, Frank and Marilyn Beddor will pay $10,000.00, and I'll read exactly. The developer sgrees in writing that the land in Phase I shall be assessed $I0,000.00 for the extension of Nez Perce Drive through thc ~ to the west of said plat to a direct or indirect connection to Pleasant View Road. My question then is, and it's an obvious answer but anyway. My question is, is Mr. Beddor entitled to Sci his $10,000.00 back if hc wins the lawsuit because it looks like you collected, as you did for me, to receive or to put thc road through, is that correct? Roger Knutson: He's not going to win thc lawsuit. Smart Hoam: Notwithstanding, but I guess what I'm trying to say is this...~ the people on Pleasant View and people on Lake Lucy Road, it seems to be sponsored or it may have a $10,000.00 pot at the end of the rainbow. Now maybe you don't agree that this $10,000.00 is likely to go back to thc B~__,'!,~s but I just thought I wanted to Sci the on the record because I Imve..ane neighbor Sets the rest of his neighbors pitted asalnst another group of nelghlx~s and it dawned on my that I'm entitled to get my money back and that maybe others are also. In any case, my un~ding at the time that we worked with the city was that the road was floing to go through. I would hope that it v.411 8o through and that you wtll proceed with your plans as they committed to me and to others. That's re. ally iL Mayor Chmiel: Thnnk you. ts there anyone else7 We're doing the same thins. We're not f~11iqs asleep with our less but in other spots. David Donna: Previous injury but I...David Donna, 881 Vincland Court. It's getting to be like home, but I'd rather be home so I'll talk rather quickly. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. I read the report that Dan 52 City Cmmctl Meeting. Octol~ 11, 1993 it doesn't mn .t~_ if it's aTin~ ira CUlN~In~ar, when you'v~ Sot two cnl-do-fncs ilpnlng out to PJonant it ts, ns Den Rogers sntd, T or curvn~ _them' doetn't malln' becanse wlmt you've goth a cui. do-sac and Ihnt's what L~ Lucy ns a n~tlt of ~ A Is redly soin~ to 1~ mtnttnnl. In oth~ words, T~ ~ h ~ ~ m Council's been real good suing we'ro not ~ to that fl.~t. We're t,u. tn_~ about what's best fa' the city when it mlkw aboet ~vo D and E ~ nddiUmml tntffic cm t~_ln.- Lucy. Well I dm't see wtmre tho became you've got n cul-do-snc Just m you have now so thm~ cmn't be my mMMmnl tmfl~ ~the ndditionnl traffic.~ b ~ ~e ~ ~ ~ I'm umndn8 ttmt's what tho intent of ttm relx~ is. Well If there is only a minfmal mlncflm..becanse of AlUnnto A, tl~n through Alnnaf~ B tlmm ~ The potnt is this. If there is redly a slisht diEnymce of tnd~ betwem ~ A ~ ~ B cm x~,~_ Lucy, I don't know where the ismo ts. 'fbc~ is a lot of discunion in tho rep(m aborn mfety vefdclo access and tUdnp~ht_ lthinkthnr_'sbee~sddressecL Smneofyonhav~beenoutnndloolr~__ ntAltam~l~ntDnn ~t you'v~ got Pleasant Vlew Road, tl~ peop~ on Nc~ Pm:e, the peosde en ~ suppmt~ E and in fnv~ of G, I don't see why there's such resJslnnce n~t E. 'l'nnnk you. Larry ~o~ I'm Lm~ .Molon~ nnd l'm an atmrnoy ~ ~ ~ of tho N~ Puce nnd Plensant V~ nrtL Before I begin I wnnt lo addrcss nn Jsm~ ~t I ~ ~~ ~ ~' respect to th~ study I hve ~ I hnd an ~ lo slndy it closely lint I siuqfly want to maim a couple of ur~ng you to do an envtronmamd study though onr petitkm fur anEAW and w~'v~ urged a tnd~c study, rbr onwtuttwns 8oingto~wflhrujx~tonfl~,wilhoutnny~tn- WMmgtazty study. Andw~thinkthnt's e0cnctly wh~t the problem is with tho ~ at URs imjm. Wo also mira objoctim to the fact that tho smcly 53 City Council Meeting - October 11, 1993 environmental standpoint. I think .we've made the point previously that to the extent there was some issue about whether the solution, as Mr. Beddor calls it, could be done within compliance with tho grade requirements of the city. We've had an engineer out there. He can put that to rest that it can be done. And we also provided evidence to the City Council that the solution that we have posed previously will result in less loss of trees than any other aitcmaflve. The bottom line is that it's our belief that the assumption that's msde in this repot, that is that there is a need for a north/south connector from Nez Perce out to Pleasant View Drive is a bad sssumption and we simply are asking you, unfortunately tepeatedly...I'm sure, to test that assumption by doing a traffic study and doing an environmental study. I'm going to assume that you probably aren't goinl~ to do that which we made that request and so given that, I want to pose at least one question that I might get an answer to this evening. And that is, I don't think I understand what the city's position is with respect to future pl_n,~l on Pleasant View. In other words, do you contemplate doing improvements on Pleasant View Drive to address increased? If you do contemplate such improvements, what are they and when would they be done? I'll simply finish with that question alonl~ with a plea that I hope as this process goes forward, including the ltti?rim process, that you'll keep an open mind, to the extent you can. We're goinl~ to try to develop some information for you. We've got experts that are working on this problem. There's 8oing to be dntR that we're payinl~ for so you don't have to and we'll be providing it to you in the llligation process and...Thank you very much. Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else? Knren Birney:. Hi. I'm Karen Birney, 10'21 Lake Lucy Road. Once again we're here as Lake Lucy Road residents trying to just come to a conclusion as to what should be done. I just kind of want to represent a couple people that are not here tonight to let you know that we're still hero with the same issues and the same problems and we'd just like to have a conclusion to it. And here's a letter that one of the gentleman on our block wrote tonight because hc had to lie home and tak~ care of two kids so. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Rod Johnson: I've Sot one quick comment. Rod Johnson, 1061 Lakc Lucy Road. I find it a little bit laughable about the environmental impact when as far as I can tell some of the things that have happened in previous history to this, for example Mr. Beddor and his wife developing Troendle. Now wait a minute. Now you're developing it. You're agreeing to pay to pay the $40,000.00. You know the road's going to go through. And now you say you want an environmental impact study. It doesn't quite wash. The point is that I know that most of us feel we'd just like to see a conclusion on this...whatever the city decides to do. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thanks. Jim Stasson: My name is Jim Stasson. I live at 6400 Peaeeful Lane, or Nez Pefco cr Tower Heights Drive, I'm not sure anymore. Anyway, Mary and I still are concerned about the tmf~ we're I~oinl~ to get through all thi~. We would definitely, ff there's any chance of getting that cul-de-sac in, Alternate I~, we would support that. It seerns to be one of the better alternatives far our standpoint and for the Nez Perce mndpoint. Thc Lake Lucy people I don't really see how it affects them too much. I know they had an agreenmnt that it would Iio through. It does take Tower Heights, it doesn*t have any affect on them. It does take the Troezidle Addition away from them and the cul-de-sac ac~lly isn't where it is now. Actually it moves back up across Lots 11 and 12... If it happens that that could be a cul-de-sac... Jeff Schoenwctcc Just one quick one. I'm Jeff Schoenweter. I'm with JMS Development and wc platted Tower Heights. I don't think E is a bad alternative. I don't know exactly what we're going to do with the ~conm~. Ithink~'s~ Tb~reissomuahi~pu~m~rymplmf~_~sm~dwh~s~ood, I~ and my neighbors on TJ*__~ Lucy. And I ccmthdy ~ the/r imms of mfety on Lalne Lucy..be an ummpl~ m some ofthe other people. You may get fnwtm2dwtth some of the pcoplo in Vtneland~m~otller m Stuart Houri: Can I ask on~ mof~ ~ pkast Smart Hoam: Am you 5oins to close Carver ~ Rosi to traffic? I~m Ashworth: No. Coumdlm~Wing: We'renoc Weaev~m~bmrd~fil. StuartHtm~: Taenldon'tnadm;nndqui~how~~~~~r~~~ Ym'mmacul-de- Mayar Cbmie-~: No. StuartHoam: Okay. lflmughtl'd2dr ' lsutictions and Plemmt View kind of being lm't nlone and tim this sm't of split the flow and hem's how this went. Where'sn. thismlknbontuaf~cominsfrmn? It'snotmbJectiv~nndl'mgeRinglostonit. We'vo addressed i~ Ja the past ami thsl's why we msde this dectsioa so this uafl~ Jssu~ l'd l~m m ~ ~ ~ 55 City Council Meeting - ~tober 11, 1993 Anyway, you had a question for Don that I would like to address. Don Ashworth: I didn't know if you quite had finished the question but if I think it is what it is. This has been a very difficult decision for the City Council over the last 2 years. But at issue is the fact that you have made a decision. The vote for reconsider was solely (me to allow fc~ this study and a presentation of additional infcs'malion. If a preponderance of the evtden~ subrnitIed leads you to want to choose one altenmttve or another, you have the right to do that. However., ff you remain mixed then my advice to you would be not to do anything because you have already selected one of the alternatives. It's back to a position that one of the other alternatives has to be better than what you previously selected. And I think that's what it really comes down to. Councilman Wing: Now..,~nd I don't see that we're gaining anything here and I'm going m q~mltfy my statement here quickly so I don't want.,.he~'s the fight and the left, I don't want anybody to fall apart here so let me say, it's a done deal except. Unless a maj~ event can occur in the very near fllua'e, by the next meeting spec~caHy. I don't think thnt the Vinetnnd people have brought anything new to tho table except an idea to cul- de-sac but they haven't resolved any problems for us and timy haven't justified a lot of their stntements. They're just opittions and I don't disagree with them n.~_e~mrily but nonetheless, tbey're not fncts and en~ineer~ issues we can deal with. I would like to suggest to the Council that we table this for 2 wee~ and specifically instruct staff to look at Option B. But Option B to be considered, and Option B to be considered. I want to say again, I consider this to be a done deal unless on this Option E, if it's formally looked at by staff, they can answer the tm~c issues. The cul-de-sac issue. The impacts on Troendie. I guess the bi~ issues would be easements, easement costs, reconsu~ction of this area, construction costs and the lawmdt. This isn't going to solve the lawsuit. It doesn't do a thing for us. We've still ~ot the problem and retiring about saving, you're not savins us any money. We've still got this massive lawsuit 8oins that's probably going to be even moro complic4Red. Docs Mr. Bcddor and his attorney agree to this proposal? If this solves it, boy I'm all for it. If it will make peace like the developer stated, I mean that's where it's at. If you people get everyb~, y to the table and resolve this issue, wonderfuL I don't mind a cttl-de-sac if it means peace for all of us but I remember Mr. Beddor doesn't want anything to go north. He wants it aH to go south and Mr. Beddor appmv~ this Troendle Addtti~l. I was here. We just read out of the Minutes. He put down the money for the road to I~o tttmugh so to say it wasn't to be is I think humorous. I think we em~ Jules Smith one night, We quoted him and he didn't even want to acknowledge the quote you know so this road's going through and it's going to I1o through unte~ something si~ificant happens. But I'm willing as a Council member to ~ive it one last shot if staff would be willing to sit down with the parties and formally look at Option E in terms of Unfflc. Basic traffic flows. I don't think there's any justification to say that anything's going to hnppen but draw me a few arrows. But more important, I want to know about the easements. Whe~ are you $oin8 to set them? How ate you going to build a cui.de-sac? Who's going to approve it? Do the neighborhoods agree? How about the people in Troendle? Do they want this? I don't hear them tonight. And how's this going to impact the lawsuit and win this resolve this multi hundred thousand dollar lawsuit we're going to get into. If that's the case, l'm all for B. But if none of these factors can come to grips with this issue, then I don't want to talk about it anymore. But I'm cmmtinly willing to table it for 2 weeks and try and form, lly address item B if it will resolve some of the problems. May~ Chmiel: Your turn. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I don't want to be pis headed about this and it's not becmme of the late hour but I guess I don't see anything new coming from looking at Alternate B again and again. Unless the rest of Council thinks that's imlxa'lant m do. 56 City Conncil Meeting. ~ 11, 1~73 Conncihn~Mns~ Yeah, soldon't. it's thnt one so yon know, I wnnt m be up f~nt with thnt- I think Mr. Honm ~ smae lig~ ca some issues ~gthisforthos~~only. Wellno, Iwnnttonddon~more. Iwnntto~nnw_ tl~nboutthe$1,1100.{}O Yay~ Chmieh I think tt~'s line, is it not Roger Knutsm: I'd have to look si the clmse h ~ ~ ~ ~~_n, Mason: As a City Council nmnber, I oontinne ~v suplx~ Alernnflv~ A I~ I'm kind of in agreement that All~mni~ E hns not been ~ it's dne. And I ~z~s with wtmt Court,linen W'tn8 said nnd my May~ Chmlel: We don't lmve to mov~ ~ a motim Mldme. L Com~llm~m Mmm~ Pnldon? ~ Chmiel~ We don't Imve m mov~ on a motim. cnn ~ cul-de-sncking it. I'd rne~mmmd _n?~st it because I ~ tt's bnd fx~ the dl~ bnt I wonldn't be surln'is~ffthecomlxOm~couldbewodn~o~tffyoucotdd I~n~~loth~ Ilmvenottti~lm City Council Meetins - Octob~ 11, 1993 speak to Mr. Beddor directly. They have indicated to me that they have tried to contact him. I think his attorney indicated tonight that they're proceeding with lifi~tion and basically don't want any of the access, well he hasn't said that...The fact of the matter is, they*re looking to have no dircct access t~ Pleasant View Road. Thus Mr. Beddor is going to continue to sue thc city. The same 300 foot stretch of road is 8oing to be built in any alternative so you're going to have to proceed with the condemnation in any case. You have the additional risk of losing $13,000.00 that we have dedicated townrds this. You have to build the same road. It's going to cost that much more. As for the idea of a trail and emergency vehicle access across this cul-de-sac. We did discuss that with Bill and I think Bill's probably better versed than anybody else as to reference the two situations we had in town where that was done unsuccessfully. I mean just 6 months n8o n problem was finnlly fixed with the cul-de-sacldng nearby this site to the northwest where we had fire Irucks stuck on the wrong side of the barrier twice. Wherewa~~~g~~. Where flre trucks can't iet aeross these barriers because there's no physical way to plow snow in the winter. I mean it's not a new concept. It's one that we've looked at repeatedly. We had si_t~,ntims where people were appel_ inS to the City Council because school buses woukln't come down their streets because their kids had to walk out to the comer. It's not something that you haven't dealt with in the past. As far as cost goes, there's the additional cost of needing to obtntn easements for the cul-de-sacs. We used to have an easement for it whe~ it's being shown but it's a temfxmn'y easement nnd it went back to the owner after wa did the road. Smart Hoarn: You won't get mine back. Paul Krauss: You know we haven't tried to see what it would cost but it is an additional expense. Councilman Mason: Mr. May~ Mayor Chmiel: Yes Michael. Councilman Mason: I'm going to retract what I said. I think knowing the hassles we went over with Teton Lane and Frontier Trail, and this has not been an easy one for me by any means but I, if Dick still wants to table it I'll support it but I think Altmmtive A is probably the. Mayor Ciuniel: I think there's been some very valid points made this evening and stttl I see the decision that we came up with Alternative A as a direct route of best access for the dry and I think it's been discussed. Rehashed. I think we should move on with it. I would like to go on record of just staying with A. Councilwoman Dockeodo~: I would also. Mayor Chrnicl: If that's the specific position, I'm not sure where Michael's at yet. I think it's time that wa 8o ahead with this and stop ali this that we've been soins timmsh. There's been so much time given to this. Considered and looked at, One way and the other. I think we should just move ahead. Councilman Mason: With ali I've just said, I'm l~oing to agree with Spt_= I've been a mugwhomp long enough on this one. Unfortutmtely for a lot of people concerned here, I think Alternative A is in the best interest of the city. Mayor Chmiel: Therefore I see that no formal nction is required mid we will stay with our previous decision as to Altemnte A. With the curvalinear alignment. Amen. 58 sPraovE ~qDIN~S O~ tACT ~Oa COLOmAL ~aOV~ ao~wmms ASSOC~T~ON RECREATIONAL BEA~3~r NON-~ONFORMING USE PERMIT. Yep, CO~L PRESE~ATXONS: Don Ashwerth: ~ 21st. have ~i~ open sight line po~ ~g in the fast fnod tmtmmmm so Fm going to ask smffto discuss that strip of 59 Cit~ Council Me, cting - October 11, 1993 Don ~shwor~: I'll hav~ thh ~ on th~ next ~n~ wc'r~ ~8 a~ut ~ ~!~ ~ ~ w~ ~ Co~~ ~on: ~ ~~ f~ on ~ of ~ ~ ~ ~ of. ~n ~w~: N~t ~. ~~ ~ ~ you. ~c~n ~n mov~ Coun~~ D~d~ ~dM m ~ ~ m~. ~ ~ h hvor nd ~e m~on ~~ The mu~s wm ~~ at 11:~ p~. Su~~ ~ ~n ~~ ~ by N~ ~h~ 6O