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1993 09 27CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 27, 1993 Mayor Chmiel called the meetin~ to order at 7:30 p.m. The meeting was Olin_ __ed with the Pledge to the Flag. COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmlel, Cotmctlman Senn, Councilman Mason and Councilwoman ~rf STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger ~n, Todd ~t. Charles Folch, ScoR Hart, Todd Hoffman, and Paul Ka-auss APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendoff seconded to approve the agenda with the following additions under Cotmcil_ ~ons: Councilman Mason want~ to discuss the ~ problem on Lake Lucy Road. All voted in favor and the motion PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: ACCEI~ DONATION FROM TI:Hr. CHANHA~ LIONS CLUB° Mayor Chmiel: I would like W, ff I could, have Jim Sloss and Ed Ginsboch come forwanl here so I can give you a recognition award. The City is accepting the donation that you're makin~ m us and this h~ been for basically the purchase of new mobile radar unit for our new vehicle. And we certainly appreciate that because of all the dollam we can have and get to provide some of the services we'd like to have are really far beyond your point as far as a conUi~~ But it's om way that we don't have to §o back and look for this in our budgets and budgets are tough, as you all know, whether in business or not And you buy that business something that is really very worthwhile for us to have and provide this kind of additional service for the community. ~ally ~is as Councilman Mason just indicated about some speeding situa~ns. And I'd like to read this plaque, ff it doem't fall apart before I get done. But from the City of Clm~hasse~ Depamnent of Public Safety, this is a Recognition Award. The City of Chanhassm hereby recognizes Chanhassen Lion's Club for an outsl~dirlg contribution made to Public Safety by otlr gommlmtty. And with that I'd like to prese~ this plaque to you and have you take this bacX to your members and thank them from the City. Thank you very much. Jim Sloss: Thank you. Mayor Ci~mieh Are there any other public annotmcemenis? CONSENT AGENDA: Councilman Senn: I'd like to pull items c, d, f, g, h and i. Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone at this time that are concerned with any of those particular items th~ were just pulled7... Councilman Mason: I believe some people are here for 20a). Resident: We're only here, not for any objections. Councilman Mason: Right. But you're here for the outcome for that, yeah. Mayor Ctuniel: Okay. Alright, we will discuss item (h) and I would like to move the balance of the agenda, Consent Agenda to prior to Administrative Presentations of item 11. With that I would then like approval for Consent Agenda items 2(a), 2(b), and (J). Councilman Mason: So moved. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second. Councilman Ma~on moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf ~econded to approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations: a. Resolution #93-91: Receive Feasibility Study for Road Improvements to Tanadoona Drive; Call for Public Hearing, Project 93-27. b. Approve Special Assessment Agreement with Rottlund Homes for Windmill Run, Project 92-5. j. City Council Minutes dated September 13, 1993 Planning Commission Minutes dated September 1, 1993 Public Safety Commission Minutes dated September 9, 1993 All voted in favor and the motion carried. H. MINNEWASHTA MANOR HOMEOWNRRS ASSOCIATION RECREATIONAL BEACHLOT INTERIM USE PERMIT~ CLARIFICATION OF CONDITION. Mayor Chmiel: Was Kate able to discuss this at all Paul7 Paul Krauss: No Mr. Mayor. She's not hem tonight. Basically as Kate related to me, this is really a result of an error that staff made in recording through the recommendations of the Planning Commission. The City Council was not aware of the omission. The intent of the Planning Commission, staff had no desire to...omission. The intent of the Planning Commission was that there was the 20 foot dock extension be reduced to 10 feet. Not that it be eliminated. It was recorded as eliminated. The City Council approved it that way and when we caught it, we wanted to correct that omission. Mayor Chmiel: And that is going to be then a 10 foot L extension of dock that's going to be approved? City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Paul Krauss: Yes. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there an~ else that you bad Marlo on your it~n (h)? Councilman Senn: This dock is still 40 feet in length then7 And_ it's just addin~ the 10 foot L in the other direction7 Paul buss: Yeah. That's my ~. Councilman Mason: It's not a 40 foot dock, it's a 20 foot dock isn't it7 0r it is a40footdock7 Okay. Councilman Selln: I was unclear on that. It is 40 foot out? Stew Peterson: Can I speak to that7 Mayor Clvniel: Yes. Would you like to come forward and just sta/e your name and your address please7 Stew Peterson: Stew Peterson, 2810 Tanagers Lane. The prese~ dock is 40 feet out with a 20 foot L ~ at ~ Ph~lmtn~ Commission ~, th~ L was ~ to l0 feet. So it'd be 40 feet out and a l0 foot L. And it was not approved that way that the L was to be eliminated the way it came out in the recommend. We just want a 40 feet with a 10 foot L. Councilman Senn: Okay, and the L is just like a standard what, 4 foot wide section of dock7 Stew Peterson: I believe it's 5 feet wide. Councilman Selln: 5 fe~t ~ and going out 10 feei7 Okay. And Paul, did we already approve for that 40 foot dock, $ boats for these 32 houses7 Paul Krauss: I -_nd_erstand that, yes... Councilman Senn: $ boats approved, 40 foot dock, 32 houses. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. With thai clarification, is there a motion to accept the item number h7 Councilman Senn: So moved. Councilman Senn moved~ Councilman Mason seconded to approve the 1Wlnn~t~ Mlmor Homeowners Association Recreational Be~tflot Interim Use Permit daldflcsfion of c~ndifion as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 3 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Mayor Chmiel: There's also an item here that I believe Mr. Whitehtll is here on. Item 2(g). Is there anything that you'd like to address on this one Cliff? Cliff Whitehill: Mr. Mayor. I came here for an entirely different reason. I received no notice whatsoever, Purely by accident I saw this... Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Cliff Whitehill: No notice whatsoever. Anyone in Colonial Grove. Mayor Cltraiel: You hadn't received anything at all? Ciiff Whitehill: Nothing. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. My suggestion would be then we pull item 2(g) and move that to a meeting withtn 2 weeks. Okay. Can I have a motion to move this from today and move it to October the 1 lth meeting. Councilman Mason: So moved. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second. Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to table approval of the Findings of Facts for Colonial Grove Homeowners Association Recreation Beachlot Use Permit until the October 11, 1993 City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mayor Chmiel: We'll move right along now with the balance of the agenda. We have Visitor Presentations. I'm looking for. Councilman Senn: Don before you do, just a question. In this packet there's a loc) but nowhere on the agenda is there a 10c). Is that a separate item we're going to address or what? Councilwoman Dockendoff: You're absolutely right. I saw that too. Councilman Mason: Contract approval of Senior Linkage Line. Paul Krauss: That was to be on a Consent Agenda~ I'm not sure where the number came from. Councilman Senn: Well it wasn't listed on the Consent Agenda but there's an informational packet. Paul Krauss: Yeah. The last item was (j) so it must have been (lc) didn't.. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that was for the Senior Linkage and somehow that was left off. City Council Meettng- Septnnber 27, 199:3 Councilwoman Dockendorf: Can we put it on7 Don Ashworth: I believe that was the inter~ Cotmcilwomnn Dockendorf: Without having it part of notlflca~on? ~ Mayor Chmiel: Well this is where we're going to be providing local promotion of a progrmn ~ city newsletter, local papers, flyers, etc. Computer ~ the information on which is part of the Senior Center. Telephone equipment is also part of fl~e Senior Center. Staff volunteer time. CI~ committed W slaffln8 the phones from 9:00 to 12:00 noon on Monday thru Friday by using volu-meers through the Senior Center and office space which is available for the senior center. And there's another commitment by the Council ns well for that. Councilman Senn: The main thing I was just wondering, I guess I saw the item in here. There wam't anything in the newspaper about it. There's nothing in here really saying whether our Senior Commission has seen it, ~ it. Thinks it's the best thing or not the best thing. Mayor Chmiel: Is there a time? Don Ashworth: We've been opernflnE it ns a p/lot program. Delaying it for 2. I was going to say, ff the Council considers that an item, in all likelihood will not generate public participation. You could waive your rules and pass it. ff there's a question s,s to whether or not fl~e Commt~/on has approved it, we can easily table lhe item for 2 we, tics. Paul Krauss: I can speak to that Yeah, the Senior Commis.~Jion was very actively involved with this. This was kind of a ground breaidng agreement we had with Carver County where we ach__~nlly cooperated with a Division of Senior Services together. And in fact the Cc~m~_ signed off on this. The Senior Commission's well aware of it and was very supportive of it. I don't k-n~w that it's terribly pressing. I mean there's no public heating specifl~y that's necessary. We have been operating on a defacto...agreement but ff you wanted to wait a couple of weeks, it pwbably doesn't hurt anyflfl~ either. Mayor Chmiel: I don't see any real problem with hying this over for 2 wee. ks. Unless there's scme other concerns by Council. Okay. Councilman Sam: I gue~ I would really ~ to see s~mrthing from the Senior Commtssi_ on as part of the staff report if we could. Mayor Ci~mtel: Move to October the 1 lth agonda with some indi~ by the Senior Commiss4_ on ~s acceptance of what is being proposed. Okay. City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: SOUTHWEST METRO TRANSIT ANN~AL REPORT~ DIANE HARBERTS. Mayor Chmiel: She is not here. Do you have anything on that Paul7 Paul Krauss: No. Mayor Chmlel: Was she going to be here, do you know? Paul Krauss: That was my understanding. I'm not sure ff anything's come up. Councilman Mason: Maybe we should have our member from Southwest Metro stand up and give us the presentation. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I can speak to some of it but I'm sure that Diane want~ to. Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor. Karen and I discussed this item and I asked her to give Diane a choice. We're going to hopefully we'll be having a work session coming up and I thought this kind of an item might be better in that type of a setting but it was going to be back to Diane which she thought would be better. And the other part was Just the length of our agendas here. That maybe ff we could take a little extra pressure off of them. So maybe she chose the work session, I don't know. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Maybe what we'll do is we'll just pass over this one and ff she does show up, we can go back to that particular item. And if it is not, hopefully she will be at our work session on October 4th to present that. We'll move fight along to public hearings. Cliff Whitehill: Mr. Mayor. Mayor Cluntel: Yes Cliff. I'm sorry. Are there any other Visitor Presentations7 Clifford Whitehlll: Thank you sir. Mr. Mayor, my name is Clifford Whitehill. I reside at 7001 Dakota Avenue in the Colonial Grove Addition. In my last letter to the Council I pointed out that I was unable to respond fully to the action that was intended because I hadn't received Minutes of the last meeting and no one was here from the Colonial Grove to record what took place at that meeting. Lack of notice seems to be more of a habit than it is an exception. Again tonight no one knew of the Consent item on the agenda. I have a question. Have the Minutes of August 23, 1993 been approved? Mayor Chmiel: I would say yes they were. Councilwoman Dockendoff: At the last meeting. CRy Comad/Meefln/- SW/ember 27, 1993 Clifford Whitehill: Thank you. As I told you, I was unable to do snything to respond to because I had no copy of the Minutes. I did receive an Seplmnber 20th the following letter. Dear Mr. Whttehlll. As per your letter of September 8th, enclosed please find a copy of the August 23, 1993 City Council Minutes. I got them on September 21. I'm supposed to respond to them. Well I did havethem. There was a ~on by a Mr. CourtMacFarisne. I' d like to read a little bit from those. A couple of other concerns I have of what ocanred 2 weeks ago has to do with the documentation provided by Mr. Whitehi~. One is the reference to 9 boats being _permitted at the dock. Does anyone know that Colonial Grove requested 9 boats? But these were ~ They've been approved. They were the basis for action by the Council. This gentleman, of who yuu took at face value in his word, perhaps you should review his own __s~n_~__ 'Because over the years we added boat8 when no one WaS W~Ching." Talk about credibility. When no one was watching out for how many boats were down there. Down in his area, Call it what you like. I know the name for it. You know the name for it. That was accepted....I ~in~ the affidavits that are identical t~ c~e another and prepared by someone else to be somewhat suspicious. No rcfe _fence to the letter lhat w~s presented by the other s, ssociation signed by 23 people, Identical to one another. That must be terribly suspicious... One last. Councilman Wing. Now these Minutes have been approved mind you. They've been publicized. They've been televise/L Well I guess I'm goin~ tO, I consider this a dead issue until tonight but afl~ the meeting I received a phone call fram a Colonial Grove resident who stated that he had signed an affidavit impwperly, under duress and it wasn't accuray. Do you know flutt getting someone to sign an affidavit under duress for a public purpose is a crime in the State of Mlnneso~ Everyone knows who got these affidavits. Now if it's not true, it constitutes liable and slmuier. One question, Who. Who is the reside~ of Colonial Grove who said that the afl~davit was secured under duress? Does anyone know7 Mr. Mayor7 Do you know7 Mayor Chmiel: No. I wasn't looking for any names at that time. Clifford Whitehill: You approved the Minutes. ~sn7 ~wnmsn7 Do you know7 Councilwoman Doc. keru~ff: No. Clifford Whitehill: You approved the Minutes. Councilwoman Dockendod: Rilht I approved the ~ but I don't see what that has to do. We listen to what people have to say. Clifford Whitehill: It says the affidavits were secured under duress. Do you know what that Do you know the meaning of the word duress7 Councilwoman Dockendorf.' Yes. Clifford Whitehill: Or would you likc tn get Wcbstct? Coundlman Mason7 Roger Knutson: Mayor. City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Clifford Whitehill: Do you know who it ts7 Roger Knutson: As a point of p~. Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Roger Knutson: Under our procedures, all questions are to be addressed to yourself. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Clifford Whltehtll: Councilman Mason, do you know who... Courteilman Mason: I believe procedure dictates what you're doing is improper right now Mr. Whttehtll. Clifford Whitehill: Councilman Senn, do you know? Councilman Senn: Who tl~ person is? Clifford Whttehtll: Yes. Councilman Senn: As I said in the heating, I doubted there was a person and I wasn't going to. Clifford Whitehill: I don't...t~rson also. And yet thee were acc~. It's not ~ue. I've been liabled and I have been slandered by this Council. This Council's going to answer in Court and tbere thc answers will actually be taken under oath. If it is true that the affidavits were SCmLmd by duress, by me, I'm subject to criminal procedures and that's where we're going to go. Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thank you Cliff. Roger Knutson: Just a comment about the Minutes, so we're clear on what happens when you approve the Minutes. All you're saying is that's what happened at the meeting. Anyone can stand up in front of you and say anytlxing if they wanted. Your Minutes reflect what happened. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you Roger. The next item on our agenda is the public hearing. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Excuse me Mr. Mayor. Diane is here. Mayor Chmiel: Obi I didn't see you come in. We dam near passed over you. Diane Harberts: Thank you. Sorry I'm late but by the skin of my teeth I'm here. It certainly is my pleasure to be here tonight. For the new members on the Council, each year I make a presentation before each of the three member City Councils Just to give you a brief update of our activities for the past year. Included in your packet you will find basically a summary sheet as well as some graphs 8 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 mat depict the ridemhip. Also there's a pam~ For the first vitae Southwest MeU~ has estabH,~ a mt,sion ~ent as well as goals and objectives that we strive for and the purpose of sharing mst with you is to gather your ~ and also so you have the oppommtty to share it with other re, tOe-S_, other communtty...leaders. We welcome all input Let me just briefly draw your ammIion to the summary commeill:s. It outlin_e8 the ba~l~ulld. In '8~, under a joint powers agreemeilt betweell the cities of Eden Prairie, Chaska and C~tanhassc~ Southwe~ Metro Tmngt Commission was establislmd regarding the public transit authority who managed to serve these facilities for transit services in these thr~ communities, l've outlined the members of the commt_ssion ail well as the staff. As I've outlined in the highllglUs, you can see that we've had a tremendous growth. July of '93 we've had an increase of service, 36% fix~ a year ago. We project for 1993 an overall ridership increase of 30% to 33% for the year over 1992 and we have those same projections for 1994. The reasons for some of those dramatic ~ in ridership really has to do with I think two factors. One, we're very customer service oriented. People talk to us, We listen and we try to be flexible in terms of planning alld IDiltiIlg our service. I think yOU probably will agree with me that we certainly play a much bigger and they visited different senior centers. Different things like that We have ~ed in October a little mad trip for the Planning Commlislon 1D look at some potential land that is being ~ for developmellL As other community public service agealcie~ St. Hubert's. We provide a tremezldous ~mmer. Some of our new services that...are really g_citing almost National stimattou at this point is Our reverse commute service. With the opening of Target, we worked closely with some of the managemem staff to help them in a sense gain access to a 1}ool of qualified employees. United Mallixig. We're WOltting with Jerome Carlson. He's Committed si~ dollar amOUlltS to really explore the idea of reverse Commute as well as taktllg advantage of th~ federal bus subsidy that's available. Just the other day I rec~lved a call from someone that lives over on Claicago Avenue in Minneapolis. Had an interview on Scpmmber 30th at United Mailings for thc second shire We can panel and there...National Transit CXmference highlighting our reverse Commute service so as I said, we certainly are I guess as someone once Coined, the pioneers of submt~an transit and it's really exciting to be part of that as well as working with some of the professional staff. I'd like to Just make note that with Don and his staff here at Chanhassen, it certainly is fun and exciting to work with them closely on projects. Some of the new things you can watch for is circulator service between Chaska and Eden Prairie. A lot of demand, especially for seniors and kids out of this area. Express service. lot for development at some time in the near future and our reverse commute service cellainiy nea~y Chaska. I'm just here tonight to let you know everything is A-okay. It certainly is exciting. The only thing that we do ask is that, one really crucial point and we'll talk a little bit more Idaout thst when we come up with item number 6. But as developme~ occurs in Ciianhaasen wc ask that the Council, when you look at development plans, you keep in mind_; you know what is the role of transit. And not in all cases transit may be a primary focus but with community development developing, with national policy and state policy going towards that, it's certainly going tO be in the best illtere~ of the city as well as the residents to keep transit in mind. It's I think very beneficial as an appo~ to the Planning CommisstoR, I certainly enjoy it as well as hoping to bring a new education of transit to City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 the city staff and to the commission. I don't know if you're aware but I was appointed to the Metro Govemment Committee by Governor Ame Carlson. We've met now 6 times. We've got 12 meetings set up to basically direct what the government structure in the State of Minnesota should be. So it certainly is exciting...and certainly thanks has to go to Representative Tom Workman who was very instrumental in that appointment. I'll be meeting with the Southwest Community Corridor on Wednesday. Paul Krauss enabled me to come before that committee to take their input and I'd be happy to meet with you and other community business leaders to take anything back to the Governor's committee, or to talk transit. That's basically it. I'm here to answer questions but like I said, things are moving reaJly well and it certainly is to aga_tn express my appreciation to the staff here in Chanhassen. It really makes the difference. Mayor Chmiel: Great. Thank you Diane. Is there any questions and before I ask for that, I did look over the mission statement and sU'ategic vision for '93 and I have to commend you on pulling together some good things. Good stewardship for the objectives and how we can accomplish those. And how you have accomplished those. And any other? Councilman Mason: I'd like to play up what you said Don. I think also the fact, it's nice to see a community like Chanhassen that is growing hooking up with an outfit like Southwest Metro and making things better for everybody all the way around. I would hope that that's both of our jobs and I think it is and I think both of us are doing a pretty good job at it. So I hope we can continue the kind of relationship we have with Southwest Metro. Mayor Chmlel: I like the idea of what Chaska is doing. Toktng people from Chaska to Eden Prairie. I'd like to see Eden Prairie bring people back to Chanh~en. Diane Harberts: I'd also like to add that with that mission statement and goals and objectives, I think it really reflects the philosophy that Chanhassen has. With the representation by Councilwoman Dockendoff as well as Dale Geving. I think in all honesty that the mission statement goals really reflect that same philosophy that city staff certainly had some... Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Diane Harberts: Thank you once again. PUBLIC HEARING: ASSESSMENT HEARING FOR LONE CEDAR LANE~ PROJECT 90-9. Mayor Chmiel: This is a public hearing and the public hearing is open at this time. Charles. Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. This item should be fairly straight forward. Basically it's the two properties affected by the project. A petition for the project. They signed assessment waivers. The...was ordered to basically agree upon for them ail to be assessed to the properties for benefit and the assessments have been established accordingly with that agreement and the assessment term has been established at 8 years, 7 1/2% interest rate. The two properties Involved 10 ~ity Com~il Meefl~ - Sq~,emb~r 27, 1993 are Lot 4, Block 1 of Cedarcmst and Lot 3, Block 1 of Cedarcrest. Staff tccomme~ approval of the assessment roll. Mayor Clunlel: Thank you~ Is there anyone wishing ~o address this at this time? As I mentioned, this is a public hearing. Councflwormm Dockendorf moved, Councilman Mason seconded to close the public he~ All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing w~s closed. Mayor Chmicl: Any discussion regarding this propo~7 Colleen7 Councilwoman Dockendoff: Charles, the way I'm looking at it, we've got most of it coming from, the payment comtug from MnDot and other dura that we have special assessments and local funds. What is that? Charles Folch: Local _f~ds is the city. Councilwoman Dockcndoffi I figured. How much money are we talking Charles Folch: That amounts to about, the total project was abotR $105,000.00. Mn~t's ptcktng up about $91,000.00. There's another $6,000.00 that's being assessed so there's about $8,000.00+_ that's betng up by local share. Councilwoman DockcndorE Okay. Nothing further. Mayor ~tThmicl: Michael. Councilman Mason: Nothing. Mayor Cluniel: Mark. Councilman Senn: Colleen already covered mine I guess except, how does that $8,000.00 compare to our normal assessment situation? Charles l~lch: Actually this is pretty good. Being that this project was adjacent to and son of involved wi~ some improvements to the Highway $, we were able to go ~ lV~n~'s cooperative agreement program where I _think ~ ptc. k~ up 85% of the cost for the project lhmugh State flings so that was a great value for the city. Mayor Chmtel: Yeah. It was a very onqfe condition for ~xtflcally a couple of those people living there. They had their driveways directly onto Highway 5. This eliminated that given problem. So 11 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Councilwoman Dockendoff: Second. Resolution g93.92: Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the special assessments for the Lone Cedar Lane Improvement Project No. 90-9 to the aforementioned properties for a term of 8 years at a 7 1/295 interest rate. All voted in favor and the motion carried. AWARD OF BIDS: UPPER BLUFF CREEK TRUNK UTILITIES~ PHASE H~ PRO,[ECT 91- 17B. Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. As I stated in my staff report, the bid opening date was scheduled after the adding could be submitted, or the results could be submitted with the packet. I'm presenting the information to you tonight. Last Thursday's bid results. A total of four bids were received for the project. The low bid was received from Nonhdale Construction Company at a bid amount of $338,627.55. AIl the bids were tabulated for acxxtracy and the low bid was an accurate total calculation. Northdale Comtruction Company has performed previous projects within the city. In fact they're doing...for the city and so they do have a reference track record with us and they have worked satisfactorily in the past. The estimate for this project was $370,000.00 so we did receive favorable bids for this project. And according to staff recommends awarding of this contract, Project No. 91-17B to Nonhdale Construction Company in the amount of $338,627.55. Mayor Chmtel: Just a little clarification. You indicated it was $370,000.00. Charles Folch: That was the estimate. The Engineer's estimate. Phil Gravel: Charles, it says $370 in there. Mayor Chmieh It shows $350. Phil Gravel: It was actually $350. Charles Folch: Alright. I guess there must be a typo on this end. Phil Gravel: Yeah there was. The 70's a typo. Mayor Chmieh Now the other bidders that were on this, what was the spread in the amount of the bids7 Charles Folch: Actually it was pretty close. The second low bid, in fact that would be a good idea ff you'd put the tabulation on. The number two bid was only less than $300.00 above the low bid and then the subsequent third and fourth bids were in the $350 range. $357 range. Phil Gravel: They were all within like 6%. 12 City Council Meeting - $/ammiber 27, 1993 Charles Folch: It helps when you're...localized in a _commsmtty on a project.. Mayor Chmiel: Good. Is there anyone wi~hin.,o to address ~ at this particular tbne? For this Upper Bluff Creek Utility Improvement Project. If not, is there any question by ~? Mark. Councilman Senn: I had one question. Charles, in tenus of the reference lmm to only 2 of the 4 easements have been seamred or agreed to. I mean what risk is to be nm by starting a project wittm~ all these things complete off Charles Folch: Actually the two that are important for us to start now have been seatmd so we're going to stage the project accordingly. And the other ones we will attempt to acquire over the next 60 to 90 days. We hope that in the me~e we can acquire right of entries which certntnly don't, once the properW owners seek legal advice, they find out they're not waiv~n~ any rights by doing that. But if we need to delay the second stage of the proje~ until next'year ~ the spedflcatious have been written accordingly so we can do that. But in goin~ thnm~ the conde~mation process, we would. have all the easem~ needed within 90 days maximum. lVfayor Chnlicl: And have the option of exerds/n/a quit claim. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Can I have a motion please? Councilman Mason: So moved to accept bid for City Project 91-17B. Upper Bluff ~ Utilities, Phase H. Councilman Senn: I'll second. Resolution #93-93: Councilman Mason moved, Councilman Sram seconded awarding this contract, Project No. 91.17B to Northd~e Construction Company in the amount of $338,627.$5 for the Upper Bluff Creek Trunk Utilities, Fnmm IL All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONSIDER,APPROVAL TO ENTER INTO A 3 YEAR CONTRA, CT FOR ANIMAL CONTROL SERVICES wrrlt ~ ~ OF YXCTQRIA, GREENWQQD, TONKA BAY, EXCELSIOR AND SHOREWOOD. lVlayor Chmiel: lVlr. Harr. I think we've had this here so many times. But it's ntcc to sec you again, Scott Ham Thank you Mr. Mayor, members of the O)undl. I have provided you with the information that was requested at the previous Council meeting. That additional financial figures were requested and while there are a number of options, it's the consensus of my staff that deals with animal control that they would like to recommend that we proceed with entering into a 3 year contract with ~ cities to provide animal control and ~ we authorize to include in the 1994 huigrt an 13 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 additional part-time, 30 hour per week community service officer to help cover the additional time that we're finding is being taken up, taken away from both Chanhassen calls and aotmal control calls. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Colleen. Councilwoman Dockendoff: I guess I don't have any questions about it You've researched it and you know what you need. That's fine and it's being paid for clearly by all the other communities. Very nice comments. Letters from the other communities showing the appreciation they have that we provide the service to them so, no questions. Councilman Mason: One real quick one and I'm definitely in support of this. You said a CSO of 30' hours, right Scott? Scott Hart': Correct. Councilman Mason: So the other cities get billed for 20 of them and we get pay 10 of them7 Scott Harr: Right now that's how we've been doing it but we've not set the 1994 fee yet. Councilman Mason: To the other cities? Scott Hart: Correct. Councilman Mason: Yeah, I like it. Councilman Senn: As a part of the annual contract then, that fee has been set annually even though it's a 3 year contract7 Scott Hart: Yes. Councilman Senn: No problem. Move approval. Councilman Mason: Second. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to authorize the Public Safety Director to mail out animal control contracts to the cities for a three year period and to authorize that the Public Safety Director include one additional part time Community Service Officer in the 1994 budget, and to arrange the billing of the other cities to ensure that the 20 hours of patrol time, plus support and administrative time, are covered through the fee schedule. All voted in favor and the motion carried. INTERIM USE PERMIT FOR EXPANSION OF THE GOLF DRIVING RANGE MAXI-MINI PUTT COMPLEX TO INCLUDE EXPANSION OF ~ BUILDING AND BATTING CAGE, 14 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 NORTHWEST CORNER OF TH $ AND GAI.PIN BOULI~VAIil~, SWINGS C~}LI~. PRYZMUS. Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, I hope the Council will bear with me here. There's more histo~ on _this one item than I have ever seen before trod hopefully will never see again. Mayor _~miel: I can tell. Paul Knmss: There...long standing issues concerning this site. It was originally approved in 1987 under CUP. There is no longer a conditional use permit for this type of use. When we ~ the IUP, Interim Use Permit ordinance, which Roger correct me, was atxmt 3 years ago. They were reclassified. Well, all those that were transitional or temporary were reclassified ns ~ use permU___ There's been a series of issues over the years with _this use~ There's been peri~c non-compliance work orders. There has been legal action consi~ and I guess inlfl~ once or twice. Tlmre's been consideration of revocation...kind of an ongoing type of thing. 'Vnis particular action goes bac. X to gr~_d_tng the...some driving ranges and what not. We did get some corrections of that but there was... did want to expand the site. Jo Ann woflr~l with John. Say look it, the only way to legitimately do lifts is to come in and ameml your permit, and it's been kind of a long on-going series of discussions originally approved doesn't exist anymore. I mean there is a legally recorded CUP that's still in place but whe~ you can't really effectively consider the expansion or tmensiflcation under a section of the ordinance that no longer exists. If the site's to be expanded in any way, you need to issue a new permit and_ a new permit's an IUP. The current request involves a m~ber of existing and ~ expausions. Exisflng...the expanded driving ranges and berming which I believe are already in place. This propo~ expansion of a building for video use and I, John corrected us at a meeting. It's my unde~ this wns not video games per se. It was video machines to be used to photo~ nmi correct golf swings. There is the propo~ addition of ~mng cages. There hns been an expansion to the summer staff gave the Planning Commission sever~ alternatives to consider, which included denial of the Imertm Use Permit and ~ expansion. Denial of anything until all previ~ conditions were satisfied. Or approval of the expansion ns an interim use permit snd one of the key things here is that inte~ use permits by definition have to have a termination d_ne. Now you could set it at some point far in the future. You could set it and when that date comes due you can look to renewing it. But an item, he does have to have a termination point_ The presumption is that they're not comes along, a more final use. The reason that the planning Commission conflmuxl action on the item, they indicated that they were favorably disposed to working with John on some expamions to the ~ but they wanted some clnriflcation of issues pertntning to the expamion und_er Rte IUP. That wns done and on September 1 the Planning Commission recommended npproval of the ~ Use Permit in a manner that clarifies what expansion can be allowed and under what conditions it can be allowed. And for that, the best I can do is kind of go Ruough and touch on some of the conditions 15 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 that were recommended by the Planing Commission. The first is that the accessory building that had been proposed, not exceed 800 square feet and be painted earth tones and can only be used for the golf videos that Mi'. th3ranus described earlier. It's not quite as large as what he had previously sought but the Planning Commission felt that that was a reasonable size. They also decided to prohibit the use of batting cages. Batting cages were viewed as somewhat of a different operation and one which typically is lit at night and lighting was a cortc~m here. Expansion of use. They tend to be fairly large and can be seen from a ways off and they were not comfortable with that. Lighting on this site is only to be for building security. It's not to be lighting the site for night time use. The Planning Commission also said that existing lighting structures which were put up should be, and those that don't conform to that standard, have to be moved by May 1 of next year. They define the hours of operation from sunrise to sunset. There's a series of other conditions that you can read through. I don't know. One of the ones that was a little bit of concern to the PllLnntng Commission is they agreed that the parking area should be designed so that they drain properly. The original recommendation from engineering was that they be Curved to direct storm water. And we haven't had a chance to go back to enginee~ but it's not entirely clear whether that's warranted. In fact part of the parking lot isn't even paved. But there are a series of berms that tend to constrain drainage on the site...so they asked the engineering department to go back out and reassess that condition. However, ff engineering felt that curbing was required to control drainage, that condition's supposed to remain and be enforced. As to the termination date on the IUP, the way that's worded is that there are 3 things that can happen, any of which can make the IUP invalid or terminate. The first is if the MUSA line is expanded to incorporate the site. When is that going to happen? I guess I honestly don't know. Many years ago I guess people used to think that everything that was over the rainbow was 20 years down the road and things weren't moving too fast. We may be talking 2 years away. I mean you've already gotten a letter from Mr. Dolejsi, I think it's in the Administrative Packet, where he's requesting that a portion of that 19915 ~/tlldy area be brought into the MUSA lille. My reaction to latin was that, that's premature at this point. The Metro Council isn't likely to look at that but in a couple years we can probably make a case that it be brought in on the basis that there's not sufficient land left inside the MUSA line. Secondly, construction of a frontage road across the property. That is Audubon Blvd, or I'm sorry. Arboretum Boulevard on the north frontage road. That's the road that is tied into the Highway 15 corridor program. Any of the alternatives for getting the road through there, east and west, reaily, I mean none of the alternatives would leave an operable site on Mr. Pryzmus' golf range. Even the ones that pulled it far to the north basically you'll have cars going...golf bails than they are fight now. And third is that if the property is rezoned. We weren't planning on initiating a city initiated rezonlng but ff Mr. Pryzmus sells it to somebody who'd like to rezone it, we reaily should not be considered for that use any longer. So those are the three conditions that would terrain!to, the ru-P. One of the things the Plaluflng Commission was concerned about was the seemingly never ending story of continued issues being raised. Stop work orders being posted. Consideration of revocation of permits. And da, da, da, da, da~ Every step toking 3 or 4 months and the fact that they're ongoing problems. They did want to make it clear, we did this with condition 115 that if any one of the conditions numbererd 2, 9, 12, and 13, which were considered the more critical ones to respond to, are not complied with. Then the Commission...the city will begin revocation process for the interim use permit. In the past we've basically had to come back to the Phmning Commission and City Council and say, there's a problem out there. What would you like us to do7 By the time we got through that step, it was another 3 months. So they'd like to make it clear that 16 City Cotmdl Meeting - Selrtember 27, 1993 they expea the conditions to be adhe~ to. With that they are recomm~ approval of the HJP for the expansion of Swings Golf Center as ~ in the conditions. Mayor C~xiel: Okay, thank you Paul $ohn: do you have an~ to address on thin? If you'd like to, would you come forward and please state your name and_ your address. John Pryvmus: I'm John Pryzmus and I live at 642 Santa' Vera Drive in Chanhasse~ I guess like Paul said that...was a conditional use permit and that's what I do have. It most likely is in your packet with the Minutes of th~ meeting in '87. Do you have that7 Coundlwoman Dockex~orf: Yes. John Prynnus: Okay. I never applied for an interim use permit. I applied for nn amendment t~ my conditional use permit. I don't know if you got thnL It was kind of mixed up in the, thin is my, thin is what I'm applying for. This is what I paid the _permit fee for. As far as an interim use permit, when I got this conditional use pemfit, I had an SBA loan that was aplm)ved for 20 years. And it would be obvious if the banker wouldn't approve a 20 year loan if all of a sudden you're going to be out of business in 3, 5, or wl~stever. So I do owe the grand $25,000.00 a year for the next 14 years Chanhassen north of Highway/5 is not in the MUSA line fight now? Paul Krauss: Basically there's only two areas. One is ~ 1995 study ama, which runs between Galpin and TH 41. South of that marsh where Bluff Creek star~ The other piece is Tansdoona. lohn ~us: In other words it's only one half a section of lan& It's my land straight- west. Paul Iraauss: No. No. It's quite a bit larger. Well. More _than half a section. It's everything south of Bluff Creek. It's Dolejsi's prope~. It's Sovern's pwImrty. It's your ~. It's Chuck Gabrielson's lm~l~erty. $ohnPtyzmus: So there's 3 or 4 parcels that are not in the MUSA line at tht~ _ttme? Idon'tknrnv why they weren't incorporated when you put in all the rest of them. You know people have their ideas but that's only a half a section basically if you go a mile, a quarter mile or whatever. Alld so that MUSA line could have me out of business next s~mer. Next spring or whatever. As far as when the city staff decides to rezone it, they could financially rain me t~norrow. They could just say John we're going to le~ you build an 800 square foot i~_flidin~. That's what we approved on an interim use permit but no use to build it because we're going to shut you down tomorww. You know. So you can see where I'm comin~ flDm. I can't have an interim use permiL The~ i~'t ~ I~ thtn~ as far as flnmacially, I would be totally ruined and I don't think staff is trying to ruin me flusndaily. It's Just that that's the way it's turned out. As far as the consUucflon of, I~ sewer and water I ~ink has asked, as one stipulation earlier. If sewer on~_ water became available to that site, and I they're going to be coming down my ditch next spring aren't they? 17 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Paul Krauss: No. It may be coming near you and we've got the engineer sitting behind me who's worked on the project but we can't allow you to hook up. When you're outside the MUSA line, you can't provide service. John Pryzmus: Okay, but I mean, so it wouldn't be available unless it was brought in with the MUSA line. So anyway, as far as me building an 800 square foot building without the batting cages, the building was for the golf pro to use video screens, TV screens to keep people, show them their swing, what have you. There was a big issue at the Planning Commission whether there was games or what have you and there was approval in '87 that I do have 4 games. This new I added a new one. Building up there. So as far as lighting goes, we had many disagreements over that and financially I can't compete, I think when parents come out with their little kids and there's been a problem that I know of. City staff has never contacted me. No one's ever contacted me that my project was ever a problem with anybody in the city of Chanhassen. Not one citizen. I can't think of ever having a complaint out there. This year I did have a complaint because I didn't let people take bags onto the tee ama for a while and I changed that. Other than that. City staff is kind of you know when you look at my file and it's ail this deep you'd swear that I'd been doing ail kinds of murderous things up there. And as far as the expamion, it was approved. The site plan that was shown on the screen there had the berm and the private lesson area. On the original plan, the thing that the City took out of there was the indoor building that it went into so in fact I didn't expand it. I have a miniature golf course and a driving range. I don't have any other businesses there. So for illegal expansion and what have you and then there's been a big hassle over the fence. You know and I knew that was approved and they come out and checked it and when I originally did a survey of my property, we put those posts in right away so it was all done then. Staff wanted me to go and have my property all resurveyed again. To make sure I didn't put my fence on the other guy's property. Well I don't, that isn't it. I mean it sounds like it's a major thing that I've done something wrong. My fence isn't on anybody else's property and there's nothing wrong with it. I just haven't put the wire up because I kept on adding trees and shrubs and flowers over these years. So what I'm asking for is an expansion of my conditional use permit to include batting cages. I see in the paper that your approving a 20 acre recreational spot right across the street from me. That will most likely have ball diamonds and what have you and I think that batting cages would be a real plus. I know everybody out at the ballpark out here would love to see ball diamonds. I think most parents would love to see their kids have a little more chance to take and swing at pitches that are always strikes rather than backing away. And I think you know, when you look at me as a private developer, or whatever you want to call me and where I'm spending all my own money to do something that's basically turned out nice so everybody...and I think you should be encouraging what I'm doing rather than trying to blackball me and nm me out of business and basically financially ruin me. That's all I have to say. Mayor Chmlel: Does Council have any questions of John at this time? Councilman Mason: Not at this time. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thanks John. One of the things, as an interim use permit Paul. As this came through and it shows the request of zoning for the amendment of the conditional use. Clarify that to me a little bit. How was the determination made to the interim use and from the conditional use 18 City Coundl Meeting - September 27, 1993 request. And I know that ff we went through redoing the conditional use, you'd have to have a public hearing. Re-opening of that to see ff you can't have the additional items that $ohn was request/~ put in. So maybe if you just make some clarifications. Paul Knm~: I'll try to fill in the project and fill in the holes. Some of it took place while I was out of the country. When this applic~on was initially being processed...it became clear that we couldn't process it as a CUP because thexe was no CUP anymore to allow this thing to exist Imean ultimately I think we came to the decision that some son of expansion that came in coml~t_~nce with everything else, may in fact be reasonable but the way to do that was to process it as an IUP which was the way it was classified in the ordinance. And I know there were ~me dis/xis~ons with the City Attorney that took place in that time flame that Roger, if you can. Roger Knutson: I can shed some light- Yeah...dtscussed it with Jo Ann_ Initially Mr. Ptynnns was allowed this conditional use _permit and the Coundl issued that permit. Subsequent to the Issuance of that happens, this use becomes non-conforming in the same way that if you have a permitted use. Say you had a single family home and you rezoneA the ~ to indusUtal. Upon the happening of that event, even though you were allowed to stay there, you are now non-conformin~. In tht~ case, although he's non-conforming under the conditional use permit, you added a pmvisiou in the zoning ordinance that allowed this type of use to go ahead as sn inm/m use. So if you want to be a conforming use, you have to have an imefim use permit~ Under State ~, and inte~ use permits have not been around very long. I would guess/5, 6 yeats maybe. Something in that order. triggered by an event or 2anuary 1 or June 1. Name the date. You could use the year 3000. 2010 or any date you felt was appropriate. And second; the applicant has W, by _St~___r~e, sign an interim use permit agreeing to the golldilJons, which i8 ~mt_qlle. That'8 not a requirement of the conditional use permits or anything else. So ff Mr. Pryzmns does not want an interim use permit, you c~nn~_ force it on him obviously. He can walk away from it and not sign the permit and Just ~ like, ignore expanc Coundlman Senn: Fill in a gap for me hem. 'I~ gap is that, what's really Utggertng the CUP to the IUP is the fact that a change is ocaming on the site7 Roger Knutson: ff he warns to exp~__ d_ his business. Coundlman Senn: So I mean just like any other non-conforming use. As long as it ~ays there the way it is. Roger Knutson: Oh yes. Non-conforming uses, as you just well st~exL You can stay there forever as long as he just dnem't expan& Coundlman Senn: Okay, is the owner in compliance wi~h the conditional use permit? 19 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Roger Knutson: I think Paul can better answer that. Paul Krauss: You know I'd really have to go back through and do an allocation of what's been there. I know Jo Ann was concerned that them were some outstanding conditions that had not been complied with. Some of them were in transition though. It was a question of John pumping his sewage instead of having a dminfleld. I believe the...while tt's not consistent with the conditions, It was probably okay as long as he can...the receipts. But there were some other conditions that had not been complied with. And then there's expansions of things that had occurred over and above what was allowed. The lighting. The expansion of the driving range. Further expansion of the parking lot. There were some other small things like that. Councilman Senn: Which do or don't put him in compliance with the CUP7 Paul Y, xauss: Jo Ann said, as I rexTmll he is out of compliance in some aspects of the CUP. I'm really not prepared to give you exactly which ones that applies with but I know Jo Ann was concerned that he was out of compliance. Mayor Chmtel: How large of tanks does he have with his existing septic system and by putting the additional things in on the property probably would increase total numbers of people. You said there's not a drainfield but you have an existing septic system. I imagine if that would go to the overflow. Paul Krauss: I think it's Just a collection system. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. And then that's come and pumped in, John7 John yzmns: I'd like to maybe verify that the way the tank is, it's a 1,500 gallon tank and when it's full, it can't get any fuller. So if it's full, you Just stop and then you couldn't use the bathrooms anymore and the truck comes and pumps so we always have a gauge on it to make sure because that would cause us great duress as far as our business if we didn't have the bathrooms working. So the pumping. Mayor Chmtel: I thought you didn't put a lot of trees on site. John yzmus: There is a lot of controversy on that and a lot of the times, we people change, staff has changed, once the city said to go ahead and put a pump tank, which I had never heard of a pump tank. I never, I mean I'm not into the sewer business. They told me to a pump tank in. And after the Inspectors inspected it a_ncl~ said, it's fine. All the permits are taken and then they said I didn't have to keep the other two sites. I mean I never found the documents and I will try to find where they sent me a letter stating that or that they Just were out at the site... I guess we didn't document, we never knew that this was going to carry on for years and years. But the septic system does wear and it doesn't pump that much. The baiting cages are, we're set up to have 9 pitching machines. I may there again start with 3...and maybe expand to 4 or 5. But I wouldn't be adding on. I mean it would all look like it but they just wouldn't have all the machines. 2O City Council Meeatng - September 27, 1993 Mayor Chmicl: Alfliht_ Do you have any~ Councilwoman Dockendorf:. I have a mtllton questions. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Councilwoman Dockendoff: Just let mc get rid of the details first before we go onto the larger lssue~ Are conditions number 4 and 5, are those cummt problems Paul, do you know? Or is that just a standard thing that you? Paul Knmss: Well, we're not clear. Those were conditions that have been c. atrleA forward over the years. There have been problems with that in the past. We had to work with John to pull material out. It's not clear...the site does not"..but I know that when you look in ther~ that condition dates back to '87 when it first.. Councilw~an Dockendorf:. Okay. Condition number 9, the second phrase is not a sentence. I'm Paul Krauss: No. The Planning Commission wagll't completely articulate but I know what... Councilwoman Dockmdorf: It Just needs to be cleamed up if they're going to pass it. Roger, I believe you answered my question about the 1UP. It doem't need to be a specific date. It can be a trigger of events. Roger Knutson: It cam be an event, yes. Councilwoman Dockendoff:. Okay. I guess those were actually all the what I considered minor question~ I don't share the, well do you want to do questiom and then commenls later? Mayor Chmiel: Well, why don't we ye. ah ask questions and then come back to Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, I'm done. Mayor Chmi¢l: Michael. Cotmcilman Mason: I have some comme, n~ lair. I think tht~ all seems fairly sUatght_ forward at this Mayor Chmi¢l: Okay. Mark. Councilman Seam The only question that ham't already been, the video games that are ttum~ allowed? 21 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Paul Krauss: There were something on the order of... Councilman Senn: Under? Paul Krauss: Under one of the earlier CUP's. Mayor Chmiel: You have how many games in there John7 A total of 47 John Pryzmus: This year I have 4. I think on the original permit we had 10 but I never had room because I had so much equipment in there I usually... Councilman Senn: That's it other than comments. Mayor Chmtel: Okay. John, do you understand what they're talking about this conditional use amending. It is not amending a conditional use and the reason why it has to go through this process as the Attorney had indicated? John Pryzmus: Yes. I understand how it's being said. The thing that I'm going to have to do obviously is if, if there is no way that I can get an expamton, at this point I'm going to have to tear down my little 8 x 10 storage shed and not ask for anything and just keep my conditional use permit because financially I'll be mined if I don't. I mean who's going to pay $25,000.00 a year for this...just like I said you know. So I guess at that point then, when it's brought into the MUSA line and I would want to come back, I want that facility to be there for 30 years. I want it to be part of the community so at some time I think people have to realize that everybody needs a place to put their equipment out of the rain and I've been leaving all my slxtff sit out there and rust for 7-8 years so I do need a place to store my stuff. I think that would be one of the complaints, if anybody had a complaint driving by there that there's trailers sitting around and what have you and I'd love to have them not sitting outside. I'd like to have them somewhere but when you only have an 800 square foot building, you can't put anything really in it. A couple garden tractors and...so I guess at the point when sewer and water is available, or when it's brought into the MUSA line, which I obviously pay a sewer and water bill, I would then want it to be brought in as a legitimate use into the city plan. And I want to stay there. I would like staff to maybe do something on a yearly thing but that's not here because we don't have the MUSA line...So that's where we'll have to go. Mayor _t~mlel: Okay. Councilman Senn: Don, one other question I thought of. Paul, what is the underlying zoning on the property7 Paul Krauss: Oh. Roger, can you see it up there7 I think it's Rural Residential, RR. Councilwoman Dockendoff: I think it's A2. Paul Krauss: Or A2. 22 Councilwoman Dockendoff: It's A2. Coundlman Senn: So it's A2, Agricultural. And it's being assessed as thaf/ Paul Krauss: W hat it's being assessed at I honesty don't know but most of the land out there is bein! assessed on t_h~t basis. Now it's not Green Acres obvio~y because it's not being fimned..~I believe there is a provisio~..§olf courses a little differently. I'm not sure if it applies to... Coundlman Senn: Well there's some exceptions Ond__er Green Acres too ~ on other uses of the...And then CUP was granted as a conditional use permit in relatiomhtp to the Agricultural zoning. Paul Krauss: Yeah. Now it was ~lso granted in a time frame that doesn't seem too long ago, 6 yearn ago but it was aiso at a _time that, well at the _time Tlm~ood was platted. It was as a time that the common thinking was that it's going to be 20 years before anything happens. Mayor C~miel.' Yeah there's, as I keep looking at tm, item number 10, I think that's one that John you can either proceed with this interim use permit or say you really don't want it. ,~nd the whole entirety of the thing is moot really as far as the application is co~. But, sru~ depending utxm procedur~ the Council goes through too, they may come up with some other ideas as well. So maybe what I'd like to do at this time, and you have that oppommity at any time to say that you either wa~ to accept it or whether you don't want to accept it and just stay with the existing permit as what you have. SO maybe we'll go to some comments now reganling mi, and Colleen Coundlwoman Dockendoff: Well, these are going to be mumbled and confused because we're really between a rock and a hard place insofar as l liim your busine~ Mr. Pryzmus. Ireallylikeit. Iuseit often but being on the Highway 5 Task Force and knowing how that area's going to develop, I know that your business is going to be compromised somehow. You know how they align Highway 5 when they expand it. What we do with the frontage mail Excuse me, access boulevard. You know reading over, actually I was at the Planning Commission meeting whea we lliflt looked at this ~d I disagreed with the Commission as far as the ha_m_ n~ cages. I find that a compatible use and I think it dovetails nicely with the school develotxnenL But again I'm coming back to how do we get around an IUP. Let the business expand. In fact kccp tt tbere f~r years and years to come and on tbe otber hand knowing what will be happening out there so, I don't have any solutions at this time. You know I don't want to manage your business and say you can't expand but if that land is going to go public in a couple years, we're going to have tn pay for it and ff you're expanding your use and ~ the value, the City's going to end up with a pretty whopping fee in a condcmmat~n procedure so I don't know. I'd like to hear what the rest of the Cotmdl has to say. Mayor Cbmtel: Okay, Michael. Cmmcilman Mason: I think your comment ~ beln8 between a rock and a hard place ~ to Council and to Mr. Pryzmus and the whole situation here. I don't have any trouble with the driving range and the mtrli golf. In fact some/Jmes you get me mad because everytime I drive by there my 4 year old says, when are we going to go mins_u_~re golfing again. But I think even ff we do approve 23 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 this, 5 years down the road, I think the pressures on that comer are going to be monumental and as this interim use permit stands with these conditions, I don't have any trouble with it although I'm wondering why we have to wait until May 1 of 1994 to move the lights because I don't believe they were approved in the first place were they? Paul Krauss: No. Councilman Mason: So, this is a tough one. I do want to comment. I don't believe, I really don't think that anyone in the city is trying to black ball anybody. I think this has been a long and checkered history all the way around. So I don't know. I don't know. I certainly am okay with this interim use permit. I question a little bit that Mr. Pryzmus would want it because I just, like I say, I was on the task force also and 5 years, 10 years down the mad, there are going to be some monumental pressures on that area~ And it kind of looks like a mad will be going through somewhere there. I don't know. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Michael. Mark. Councilman Senn: On one hand I guess I sympathize with and kind of agree that the IUP is really, oh. I don't know what you'd call it but a real hardship to the landowner because I appreciate his comments. It is impossible to do much with financing or anything else when most lenders nowadays will require all that information up front before they'll ever give you the loan. He's now being caught in a situation where...have been changed on him since he had his loan but that also probably would even potentiaily...I guess I'm not sure I agree with trying to really go to an IUP to solve the problem because I think the problem it mates may be more monumental. At least for the property owner. If the issue is the CUP, I mean it seems to me he has that. ff he wants to retain that, then he should keep it. At the same time though I would, before we take any further action on that, I guess I'd like to see more information on that. I mean if there is a CUP, I've seen all kinds of references and innuendoes and everything else here. There seems to be a lot of it being out of compliance or in compliance or whatever. If the CUP is going to remain or if there's going to be any action on our part to do that, I think there could likewise be an action that would deal with cleaning up the old laundry so to speak as it would relate to conformance or non-conformance issues with the CUP. I just overall from a philosophical basis, I have a problem with basically, if you take the IUP and set it aside, because I'm not sure it is a fair mechanism but at the same time I have a real hard time...with the issue of the CUP because I just can't, I have a real hard time looking at going forward and saying that we should either expand the non-conforming use or allow it to extend it's life so to speak beyond what current conditions that were clearly with the ordinance fight now. If we're going to do something else and I think we need to look at changing the ordinances. Not deal with the situation specifically. That's about it I guess. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Excuse me. I have a question about, what was the rationale behind changing conditional use not to include minature golf? Do you recall? I don't know if you were here at that time. City Coundl Mmmg- September 27, 1993 Paul Krauss: I guess not spedfically. When Roger and I w~t throuih the o~ we looked at those that seemed to be non permanent or trmattional md made a recommendation to the Planning Commission and City Council for it variety of those. Roger Kmm~n: Inn r~ond. Not specifically to the mtnamre golf concern but to lt~ philosophy in general, because I don't recall mins_mr~ g01f. But the philosophy was that certain uses in the nnal yards was one that kind of came back. I mean it's fine to have a...yards out in the middle of 200 acres and no one knows it there. All of a sudden it's down W 15,000 or 11,000 square foot lots and if you're surrounded, then the complaints never stop. These uses were generally considered to be imm-ttn uses. Uses that did not require neces~y a lot of invesunmt. If someone came in, they could amofitize their use, their investment over a period of time and get o~ Or if things didn't change, they could come in and get it renewed. That's the phil~y. Councilman _Senn: Would it be a fair statemem to say that the effectiv~y a property owner set a business up there and underWok a business ~ on ~ ~ in ~ ~ p~ ~ ~ 1~ ~ ~ rules of that CUP are maintained, I mean there is no, I mean nobody's affecting ~ from one standpoint or the other. I mean what you ask for is what you got and what you got is what you got Roger Knutson: I agree with that 100%. If he has a, Mr. Pryzm~ has a CUP or his use was authorized by a conditional use permit and to lhe extent that he lives within the terms of that _permit would be the question of expansion- Coundlman Senn: How can we move it to an IUP without the consent, I mean without his consem? Roger Knutson: You can't. Counci~ Senm Okay. That's really what it comes down ti). Roger Kmrtson: If he doem't want it, he doesn't get it. Roger Knutson: That's what I heard. Senn: Okay. Mayor C~mt~: And that's what I was saying earlier. Councilman Seam So what are we doing? 25 CRy Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Mayor Chmtel: Well, we don't know where John is coming from. Whether he's going to accept it or whether he isn't going to accept it. Roger Knutson: If Mr. Pryzmus would just make a statement for the record, he doesn't want an IUP and ask you not to consider this further, that would be the end of it. John Pryzmus: I guess maybe to claflfy my position. An IUP wouldn't defintely be out for me depending on if I could set the date. I mean I'm looking at you know maybe tn cash I have a half a million dollars Into the project. Okay, tirnewise God only knows because I work there day and night. How much tt would cost if I took an IUP and took Paul's Idea. How much would tt take to rebuild that over In Chaska. It would maybe take 3/4 of a million to a mtllton dollars. People don't understand I guess because there isn't a great btg brick and block building, how much money went Into that place. I originally had $300,000.00 SBA loan secured for It. But tf we want to talk, I'm 45 years old. If we want to talk about a 30 year IUP ending when I'm 75, Ithtnk my ldds should be ftrdshed with college hopefully by then. Anyway, something in that order. But like I'm trying to explain to Paul, and I don't think a lot of people belteve me. They think, and I bought that property In 1980 so I've owned it for 14 years. It Isn't something, I don't jump. I'm not a developer. I don't jump In and buy something and see how fast I can mm a buck and get out. That's basically my ltfe out there. That's what I want to retire on. I want to keep it for 30 years. I don't, I would ltke to see Paul and staff Incorporate It Into a beautiful comer. I mentioned at the Planning Commission. How many thousands and thousands of dollars the CRy of Chanhassen pays to make thts town look beautiful and here we've got a comer that's goIng to be a major comer tn Chanhassen forever and It's going to be green and trees and flowers and shrubs but 30 years. I mean geez, how much would you pay to have that7 You may be paytng a mtllton dollars to build tt you know and yet that's why I don't see why we shouldn't be able to come to something where It can stay there. I mean ltke I say, If you change the zoning and I come In and incorporate that into the new zoning where we Just let this die for now and when we get new zoning, then we'll try to get it incorporated to where tt will fit and maybe, tf you're worried about not getting enough taxes, I don't know. I never applied for Green Acres. My taxes on tt are just about $6,000.00 a year so I don't think that's Green Acres. When I don't have a butldtng per se. You know an 800 square foot building that's not heated and there's nothtng in it so I am paying something to be paytng something to someone. I don't know what it ts. But that would be an option. If you want to take an RJP and have tt at a date further down the road, but you know when you're talking about when a road goes through there, you people that are on the road group. Rtght now you take 2 acres of my property and I've got a ptece on thts stde and a piece on thts side, I couldn't, I'd lose money. I'd lose a couple hundred thousand dollars Just by having that happen to me. I paid $3,800.00 an acre 14 years ago. If I would have never done nothing to it and just let it stay natural for 14 years, and I could get $30,000.00 an acre, that would be a pretty good return. But betng that I put tn all these hundreds of thousands of dollars, I'm going to have to keep it for 15 years just to make money on the sale of the property. Mayor Chmiel: Mark. Councilman Senn: I think you've heard everything. If I could maybe make a suggestion that we simply not take any action on this Item until we have an HJP tha~ the applicant Is forwarding to us. In 26 City Council Meeting - Selm~nber 27, 1993 the meantime I'd like to request that the staff come back and give Council an analysis of the existin~o CUP and what's in conformance and what's not in conformance so we know what the issues are relating to thaL Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I know that there was m awful lot of reading that I went thnm~ back from 1991 and there was discussions in here on the conditional use permit in itself and some expl_snsflom as is shown on page 21. But there are some other things here too th~ I can unde~ where $ohn is but I also have to look at it from a city standpoint as to what's going to transpire there within the next 2 years. 5 years. MnDot too of course, their expansion of Highway 5 is going to take 8ome of that as well. And with the service road, and I'm not sure as to how much they'd take or what side they're even going to take. But I would most imagine that some of that would probably be taken through that particular area as well. And I can undemta~ that you've got an investment there. You've got 14 more years to pay on it and it's really, you're fight between a rock and a hard place. If you accept this IUP, you have the conditions that you have to live with with item number 10. And ff that frontage mad occurs and eve~ else is done as well. ff I were in your position, and I like the idea of the batting cages. I really do. I think that's something that is good. Good for the gommnntty and probably better for the CCV School District. Probably getting to a point where we could win a few cl~/npJonship8 with a little more practice with those kinds~ of machines laying around and giving them that availability. But I don't know, tht, thing is really not the easiest thing to move ahead with and I think as to where it's at and as Mark has just indicaw~ he's looking for some additional information from that. And I looked at it from the same standpeint seeing that it was a conditional use, why couldn't that be re-~ for that conditional use _permit and public hearing held again to granting of fl~se other things. But then of course Roger has explained the fact that there was a, was uses, use that means that's the expansion for this. I don't know. I get a little caught up in some of $ohn's problems but I also get caught up in some of the things that we're going to have to pay in the long mn as well. ,And even with MnDOt, and of ~ John's el~titied to whatever he pu~ into that plus and it is taking 14 more years. Roger, in com~ for things like that, when they go through balance of what a loan is on a business and the number of years that are left there as well7 Roger Knutson: The commissioners, no. They don't ~r thaL Mayor Chmiel: They don'C? Okay. Roger Knutson: They consider the value of the ~. Mayor Chmiel: Yep. Okay. Well, what's Council's thoughff Councilman Senn: I already said what mine was. Co~an Mason: Well, I'm certainly not speaking for Mr. Ptyzmus hem. If I was in his position, I certainly would not want an inte~ use permit with these conditions. City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Mayor Clamtel: You're right. I wouldn't either. Councilman Mason: And I guess, but that's not for me to decide. So it seems to me we either act, what are our claoices here7 We act on the interim use permit or hold off until we see if anything can be done with the conditional use permit Is that fight or not7 Paul Krauss: Basically...oh I'm sorry. John threw on the table 35 years. Whether or not you find that realistic or not, you can set different termination dates for an IUP. The fact ts, what's probably going to terminate the operation, as near as we can tell, is the construction of the roadway improving of Highway 5 which ts slated to happen before the end of the decade. But we've heard that before toO. Councilman Senn: Well with the MUSA, it could happen before that. Paul Krauss: The MUSA could happen well before that, yeah. Roger Knutson: Mr. Mayor7 Could I answer Mr. Mason's question? Mayor Ciamtel: Sure. Roger Knutson: Normally you could so call revise the CUP would be to go back and amend the zoning ordinance to make this use, conditional use... Councilman Mason: Okay. What happens if we refuse to act on this? If we c~ose not to act on thts application for an interim use permit? Councilman Senn: We can't. Am I understanding that right? We can't act on thts unless the applicant is agreeing to it. Mayor Clamiel: No, no. We can act on it. He can deny it. Councilman Mason: What I'm saying is, if we choose to not recommend approval of this interim use permit. Roger Knutson: Then I'd prefer Findings explaining why. And that's your discretion to say no to ~ interim use permit. Councilman Mason: Of course we could Just as easily let Mr. Pryzmus do that too I suppose. Councilman Senn: Roger, I don't understand. Why are we considering an IUP when we don't have anyone requesting it other than staff7 Roger Knutson: If he's not requesting it, if that's tl~ status of it, then you're rtgl~ 28 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Councilman Senn: I haven't heamt anyone else request ~Is 1UP ~roval tonight. Roger Kuutson: I guess as I unde~ staff is inte~~ his request as a request for an interim use pennit. If that interpretation is wrong, then ttfls matter should not be on your agend~ 7ohn Pryzmus: Yeah, I stated at the Planning Commt_~lon meeting that an interim use permit was not an option for me. I couldn't have one. I told them that at the Planning Commission meeting. Councilman Serm: It's in the Mtma~. $ohnPryzmus: And now the only thing l did say is l would aca.-.~pt one if we put a year on it. A date. I mean I'm saying 30 years. That's 75. Maybe 6~. Maybe 20 years from now. But I can't, and everyone understand that I can't have it end next year or the year after. See that's the thinE. So if we want to work on a year thing, but let's table it tnnight and maybe Roger or Paul and I can get together or whatever and sit down and see. But ff your general ideat is that you want to have me out of business before you put the wad through so it don't cost you nothing to put the road ltmmgh, now that's a different story and that's kind of the way this is les_dtn~. You know ff I take an interim use permit, and it's no good once the road goes through it, or it gets up you know. Okay, we want to put a road through so now you're not in business no more. Roger Knutson: Let's make something real clear so everyone understm~ds. You caumot mm down or approve the interim use permit on the basis of trying to drive down a condmmation price. That would be highly lmlxoper and we can't do that... You can't use zonings to surpmss market prices. That would be wrong. Worst than that. John Pryzm~: So tlma it wouldn't even be an advmtage for staff then to have it in as soon as possible if basically the citizens of Chanlmssm got together ami said, this is a project that we want to have here for 20 years. Maybe that would be a way to get it done. See what the citizens wmts. I don't know. I don't know. I mean I'm not going to get into the legal mpects. Roger Knutson: Mayor, could I make a suggestion? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, go aheatd. Councilwoman Dockendorfi Yes, please do. Roger Knutsom I'm thoroughly confused. Maybe I could suggest that we table this and P~Ul md I meet with John and... He said in one breath he's not applying for it but in the second breath he said he'd like it ff the terms can be worked out so that's my confi~o~ Which is it the left hand or the aght tuma? Councilman Mason: I think you're not the only one sharing the confi~on. 29 City Cotmcil Meeting - September 27, 1993 Councilman Senn: I'm just real uncomfortable even saying anything more beca~ it seems to me everybody's jockeying over lawsuits. We're not considering... Councilman Mason: Well, I don't know that anyone's jockeying for lawsuits. Mayor Chmtel: Yeah, no. No, that's a misquote Mark. I don't think so. Councilman Mason: I really disagree with that. I'll move to table this until the time that Mr. Pryzmus, staff and if need be, City Attorney can get together and try and work something out here. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'll second that. Councilman Mason moved, Coundlwoman Dockendorf seconded to table action on the Interim Use Permit for expansion of the golf driving range, maxi-mini putt complex for Swings Golf so that staff and the applicant can meet. Ali voted in favor and the motion carried. Councilman Senn: I'd also like to see a staff analysis if we could on the CUP. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that's not any problem. Okay. A lot of talk. No action. That's the way it goes. NEW SPECIAL EVENT PROPOSAL~ '*FEBRUARY FESTIVAL*'. Todd Hoffman: A break from the nonn. Mayor Chmiel: Good. We need it. Todd Hoffman: Just coming off of the brand new Septembedest celebration, I'd like to preseut here to City Council members this evening, a concept for a February Festival. A winter special events. Something the city has not fully sponsored in past seasons. Again the idea comes out of essentially that we have 4 to $ month~ of winter and we cram all of our special events into the other remaining 6 months so we have 4 or 5 of them going on throughout that season. I think we should have one going on in the winter as well because we do have so much to celebrate here in the winter in Chanhassen. Essentially we targeted dates of Saturday, February 19, 1994 and reasons for that are stated there. There's other festivals in other communities that are surro~g Chanhassen which take up the other dates so we picked that one. The location, we're looking out at Lake Susan and Lake Susan Community Park. Essentially is a change of venue from Lake Ann. We do a lot of activities at Lake Ann. We'd like to utilize Lake Susan and the facility we have there. Availability to the shelter, access to numerous parking lots. We have Rosemount, Empak, and parking on the site...Potential attractions which we've talked about is an outdoor concert. Snow sculptures, or potentially even an ice sculpture. Sleigh rides, fishing contest, winter fireworks, bonfire, all that goes along with these festivals, s'mores, hot chocolate, etc, etc. We'd like to hear your ideas about the festival. You've talked about the funding. Essentially coming before the Council this evening is kind of a preliminary approval of a budget item. This would be a 1994 budget item at a cost of about $5,000.00 to fund... recreation programs. We're targeting that $5,000.00 with a matching amount of $5,000.00 in 3O contributions from what I'll call tbe title ~o~son in _th_~ Febnmry Festival. It does have a certain title...have all been very proactive in the past... The update from the Park and Recreation Commission, their last meeting, September 22nd. They urum~ously supported the creation of the February Festival of Chanhasse~L They added cross country siding. Again, that _endless supply of hot chocolage. We'd like to hear your ideas and again this program or a special event does carry a price tag of $5,000.00 out of the general fund. I think about special events in terms of the cost of entertainment hour. We have a 4 hour special event. You have 1,000 people out. That's 4,000 hours worth of enjoyment and if it's going to cost us $10,000.00, that's about $2_~0 an hour. Ttmt's a pretty good benefit when you think about what the people coming Ollt to your special event are gaining lind what the commllnity i8 gaining from that special event lis well So with thiR, I'd like tO hear your commelltS and get you involved in this newly PWlX)sed spedal events. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Todd. One of the things ~ I always like alxmt it, coming up with some new ideas on this. Is the fact that this in itself does bring community together, number one. I would like to see this done at a time when also our business people could gain from _this as well. Maybe working with them, even special hours for opening of stores on _th~ particular day. And I don't think we would have it on a Sunday by any means but I'm thinking possibly Friday night or a Satm~y night. And of cours~ a lot of th~ store~ are open tn the evening t~t not all and parlicipation I think is something that we really want to have. Some of the other things that I looked at, at same of the potential attractions that you have. Maybe even snowmobile races that I can see. I think that fishing contest is a good idea. Sleigh rides. Even snow sculptures. Outdoor concert, depending upon Councilman Mason: No bmas. Mayor Cl~mtel: Could cause some lip problems. But I think the overall potential of coming up with something for _community is good and I'd like to also _ex~a__il lhi~ as a fimffiy kind of g~heflIlg. Kids and parents and the things that we try to pattern with_in the community. Colleen? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well then we can conl/mie the illeration with Felmiary Family Festival. Mayor Chmiel: There you go. Coundlwomsn ~rf:. Which was one of my concerns actually because it does imply Festival Foods. ff we get them as a sponsor, wonderful. Otherwise, they're getting free publicity in my mind so anyway. Todd Hoffinan: They're one of our best SlXmSOm to date. Councilwoman Dockendorf: OmaC Okay. If we could somehow coordinate wilth I have no idea when spring break is and I don't know if you want to avoid spring break or have it at Ikst time. Todd Hoffinan: We talked about that at the Park Commission. We would like to avoid spring break. 31 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah. And do we plow Lake Susan a little bit for ice skating? Maybe we could add that as open skating or something. Other than that, great idea. Councilman Mason: I think it's about time winter is ftnally getting it's due. Thank you Todd. Seriously. It's about time. That is, ts that Presidents Day weekend? I don't know if that's. Todd Hoffman: That sounds about right. Councilman Mason: Okay, Monday is a holiday then. For a lot of people. I don't know how that would figure tr~ Mayor Chmiel: Just for a few lucky people. Councilman Mason: One of the few breaks we get. I think it's great. I really get, if Park and Rec hadn't added the cross country skiing, I would and you know, if there were to be some kind of race or something, that might even be something that could be hooked up with the Arboretum. They do have trails out there which I think could be a nice connection. I'm thinking in terms of any kind of race around Lake Susan would probably be, well you certainly wouldn't get anyone too serious about it but maybe you could have a fun race and a serious race or something. Yeah, I think it's a great idea. I will certainly, if I'm in town, I'll be there. Mayor Chmiel: Mark. Councilman Senn: Don, I think the festival's a great idea. I guess I'd really like to see it go. I guess I'd like to see it a little more defined I guess in terms of the activities. I guess some of them don't raise any red flags but I've heard a couple mentioned I think do raise some red flags, because I think if we did something like snowmobile races' with a lot of noise, everybody within 2 miles would be wanting to kill us. Mayor Chrniel: Yeah, only for an hour. Councilman Senn: I don't know many that last for an hour but. Mayor Chmlel: We could move that on Lotus. Councilman Senn: They could all kill you then. Bring the same group back from the last meeting. From Council's perspective, at the same tree comtng off of a joint meeting last week with the Parks and Rec where all I heard was, there's 10,000 things to do and funding for 10 of them. At the same time and I really feel more comfortable if we kind of plugged this into and considered it in relationship to '94 budget priorities rather than Just kind of taking the independent action hem that we're creating a new program before we even get into budget considerations for '94. Mayor Chmiel: I think it's something for them to start looking at and budgeting for '94. 32 City Council Meettng- September 27, 1993 Coundlman Senn: Yeah, and bring into the budget ~. I wouldn't be prepared to approve it tontgtm Mayor Chmiel; Okay. Any other discussion? Diane Harberts: Excuse me Mayor~ If they nm into parking probl_ems, them may be an oppommity for Southwest Metro Park and Ride. Mayor Claniel: I w&s thinking that and I'm glad you. Diane Harberts: You know park and ride... Mayor Chmlel: Do you have any slei_ohs? Diane Harbe~: Well you'd be SUllrrlsed what we can do. So give us a call. We can work with staff. Mayor Chmiel: I think really, I don't know ff we're looking for full approval but I think we're looking for Council acceptance of this ~ for 1994. I think we should at least take that partioflar position and move on this parfl~ item I think at this time. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'll move approval of the concept. Mayor Chmiel: Moved and seconded. Any other discussion7 Councilwoman Dockendoffi No. Councilman Senn: Okay. the concept for the February Fe~ival to be organized by Park and Recreation Department. AH voted in favor and the motion canded. Councilman Mason: When would we be looking for approval of those f~_mg_s? Mayor Chmiel: Well Ithink we'll be seeing that when it comes with the budget for 1994. Councilman Mason: Yeah, which I think is in the next month or so. Mayor Chmlel: Pretty dog gone close, ff not by starting October 4th. City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Todd Hoffman: We won't sign any contracts for expenditures but we will be going forward with the. Mayor Chmtel: With the idea and the concept...Good. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO LANDSCAPING REQUIREMENTS FOR SITE PLAN REVIEWS. Paul Krauss: Thanks Mr. Mayor. This has been a while in coming to you. This started last year with the approval of Target. As you know, Target came back through a number of times in a very short time period. I think we approved it in about 5 months. But there was a great deal of effort placed upon the landscaping for the Target site. Comtrlg out of that there was something that we keep referring to as the Target standard. It was a new and improved requirement for landscaping and the City Council directed staff to put together an ordinance. First they direaed us to figure out exactly what happened on Target. What set it apart? What made it different and making it better than what we used to do. And then codify it so that it become unlformily on all developments. Throughout staff maintained the position that once we looked into it, our landscaping ordinance is not a bad one. It didn't achieve the Target standard but it wasn't a bad one so in all probability we were looking at a modest tinkering with the existing code to make that Target standard the norm. Kate looked into it and tried to disect what we had done on Target. We found a couple of things we had done. We found out that the Target standard related mostly to the amount of landscape area in a parking lot, which was slightly more than what the ordinance used to require. It was the use of overstory t_re~ in the parking lot instead of decorative trees or bushes. It was a couple of things of that naUh-e. It was the scattering around of landscape areas so that it was spread through the site. There was also the fact that no one landscaped area was so big that it took up all the requirements. So there were a number of things we found out. We went back in and worked out what again I refer to as tinkering with the existing code. I'll just tough on the highlights here. Just by the way it was approved after several meetings with the Planning Commission, a meeting with the Tree Board, which as&ed to take a look at it, and then back to the Planning Commission for public bearing. The first thing we did is correct the value of landscape materials. The formula implies the value. Making sure that it only applies to plant material and does not include seed or sod. Now, in reality we've only rarely had to use this formula. In fact I've never had to use it in Chanhassen. This is one of the things I'll tell you honestly I lifleA from Minnetonka. Even 1Wametonka wasn't original. In Mlnnetonka we lifted it from the Oakdale zoning ordinance where it was originally developed by, I guess I'm a little relunctant to say it but a BRW staff person way back when. But it seemed to work and it really defines the minimum type of landscaping. There was a formula that was introduced for calculating the value of significant trees, which was done to preserve tree cover. Apparently that's a standard type of formula that's fairly well accepted. In Section 20-1181, on page 3, we made it clear that we were looking for overstory trees from the approved tree species list, and there was a list that was developed. And that is accompanying this ordinance. In fact the tree species list was developed with in-house staff supported by the Arboretum and some input we had from outside sources. In the furore, it's proposed that all these planting areas have an irrigation system. It's commonly been done in the past but not always... The amount of the percentage of landscaped area, parking lot was increased from 5% to 8%. 3% difference doesn't sound like a lot but it really is. I mean it does make a pretty significant difference. The minimum landscaped area permitted was 200 square feet which was considered the minimum 34 CRy Council MeeOng - September 27, 1993 that's needed to maintain a tree. Sometimes you get these things that are so small that cars pull up on either side and smash what's ever in the middle. Or the mow gets thrown up and kills whats ever in the middle. And there's a dimension provided for the tree itself from the curb line so that... Some little things that sound Httle but ensuring that them be proper soil preparatio~. There's many examples where soil preparation is just wherever bust~ up blac~ is going...bulld the pafldng lot after you wind up in a tree planter and you've got a tree in there that hopefully will live for a year... There is the approved tree list It is attached. 0ne of the things that came up at the Planning Commission meeting was thor there was not a compat~le approved list of gwund covers and... Kevin Norby, who is a landscape a.w. hitect and lives in _c~snhassen, was I guess monitoring the process for Brad Johnson, representing...Development but Kevin volunteered to come up with a list which has been included in your ordinance. Kevin wanted it known that it's not necessarily all incl~e. He knows that there's other material to be approved by city staff. We think it's a good shot at the initial run. Before this comes back on second reading, we'll nm it in front of the At, return t~ try and get a fine tuning type comment. With that we are recommending that tht, ordinance be considered and approved. We think it will achieve that higher gumdaxd of landscaping. Uniformtly on projects nru~ your site plan rc~lew, which in Chsnh~sen is vir,~sily everylhtn~ exc. e~ liillgie flztlliiy...Thank you. Mayor Chmiel: Thanks Paul. Well as I undemand what we're going to be doing with this this evening is to basically review it and go through first reading on tht~. And that would be on our next October 1 l th agenda. Paul Krauss: For the final rea_dinE? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. Paul Krauss: Ah yes. Whmever you prefer. Mayor Chmtel: Okay. Okay. Have we had a lot more i .nput from any of the business people within the commlinity regarding this? Paul Krauss: No. We sent out some copies of it. Well actually we did have same, come [o think of lC We had John Uban at one of our meetinss. We did send out notices w the Opus folks. To Ryan DevelopmenL And a couple of others who esc/q~ me flgh~ now but that's why Brad ~ohnson came in as well. To fl~e extent that it is a standard we've already employed, we have some confidence that it seems to work. And it is not a major departure. We're not throwing out a whole landscaptug ordinance. In fact, we've been opera_fin! under it for the last 4 years so we feel comfortable wi~h ~ It's a matter of building on that. We did have some comment received from Southwest Meiro with the subject, perlaink~ to their particular situation- I believe they have somebody here tonight who's going to give you a little bit of discussion on their point of view. We did try to include as much conunent as we got and then like I said, it was hea~ twice by the Plmning Commission_ On~ by the Tree Board and then a public hearin~ on it. 35 City Counctl Meeting - September 27, 1993 Mayor Chmtel: Okay. So with that, maybe we'd best listen to hear some of the comments regarding this proposed parking lot landscaping ordinance. Is there anyone wishing to address tiffs at thts time? It took a long time, but you finally got here fight. Harold Shelbostad: Thank you. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. My name is Harold Shelbostad. I'm a landscape architect with...based in Minneapolis. We are in the southwest...We are also consultants to Minnesota Valley Transit Authoflty and the MTC. Comments tonight regarding the landscape ordinance revolve around safety issues. Our goal tonight, with respect to those comments, · is to talk about some kind of flexibility within the ordinance. There are lots of shalis and musts. What I would like to present tonight is perhaps a need for some kind of document flexibility in terms of the site plan review process. In our capacity as consultants to Southwest Metro and to other transit companies in the metropolitan area, we've had the opportunity to review a great many park and ride facilities. We've had the oppommity to review a great deal of parking situations with respect to landscape ordinances. With respect to criminal activities that take place in these facilities. Case in point, a couple of park and ride lots in the city of Eagan. Criminal activtty has taken place there and it's increasing as those particular facilities mature. Specifically as plant material, landscaping and specifically screening matures with these various park and ride lots. Case in point on 1-35E in Eag~ As these two lots, and they're beautiful lots. They were developed by MnDot on an access right-of- way for Minnesota Valley Transit Authority, done according to the City of Eagan landscape ordinance. So the screening, the buffering, is all tn place according to the ordinance. Those lots are now 7-8 years old. As the material grows around the peflmeter, the interior of the lot becomes invisible. Therefore inviting criminal activity. What we are asking for here is a review perhaps on a use basis. Perhaps on a specific use basis but a review at a site plan level in terms of allowing some flexibility based upon the use of a particular lot or a particular parcel or a particular development for some kind of leniency perhaps. In terms of safety issues that are being documented now and 1-394 is perhaps the next corridor which is going to experience these increased levels of criminal activities based upon landscape ordinances. Unusual, yes. I'm a landscape architect. I plant lots of trees. They do have consequences. With respect to, tt was brought out at the Planning Commission level perhaps single use, large use, kinds of parking lots. It is an issue. It is an issue for park and ride lots. Park and fide lots are, a great deal of activity early in the morning. A great deal of activity late in the aflernoon. But midday, there is no activity. These lots become targets. When you talk about mixed use kind of development. When you talk about a Target store, you have traffic coming and going all the time. When you talk about perhaps co.rate headquarters, that's private property. Although the coming and going of traffic ts not as great, there ts somewhat of a sense of security. Again, our goal tonight Is to make you aware of what's happening in the metropolitan area based upon landscape ordinances. Our goal is to somehow work into the ordinance some kind of document flexibility. The Planning Commission passed on the ordinance to you with comments that took place at the meeting stattng, yes. We are well aware of what can and does happen tn these kinds of parking facilities and we as a Planning Commission Mil keep that tn mind as we review park and ride lots. And Southwest Metro will be proposing a park and ride lots within the city of Chanhassen. Planning Commission also made the comment that we are sticking this, It's not ready. Planning Commission members change. We'll be the foresight and the education of what's happening in these facilities go with the changing Planning Commission. Ltkewlse with the Council. Will knowledge about Increased criminal activity, based upon a landscape ordinance, evolve with the Council as they change members. That's again the 36 City Council Meeting - Septanber 27, '1993 are our comments. Councilman Mason: Is now the time to ask a question? Mayor Chmiel: Yeah. I was just sort of sitting here and really thinking about this. These cflminai activities which is somethtn~ that we don't really notmaliy even consi~ but yeah, go ahead. Councilman Mason: My question would be with, and I believe that Paul addmssexi it or it was addressed in the Minutes somewhere here. At issue, and I'm curious to have your t .nlmt on this. know those park md fides at Bagan are just for tlm use only, rigl~ Harold Shelbostad: Correct Councilman Mason: So what's the feeling when we have pack and fides ~ we're proposin~ that will be shared use by 3 or 4 different businesses. Legion. Pcflia~ a motel or what not where there would be a lot more Iraffic during the day. I mean has that issue been studied? Harold Shelbostad: Yes it has. In terms of contacting police departments throughout the metropoH~ area and documenting what kinds of park and ride facilities are available within those communities. Eagan is a spedal case, as you mentianod. You're aware of those two lots. They are single use. They are isolate/L They are islands. Other park and fide facilities within the metropolitan area share the use at Rosedale with Rosedale shoppers. So there is traffic moving aro~: Yes, the pa~k and ride facility at Rosedale is isolated. It's off to one side but just because there is movement aro~md the Rosedale area, the Rosedale police department could not...or would not...that in fact the park and ride was an attractive nuisance in terms of everything from heavy vandalism to auto theft. I had menIi~ 1-394. 1-394 now has a string of single use, heavily lmdscaped park and ride lots. The landscape is new enough that you can still see into the lot. $ years from now you won't be able to see... The Minnetonka police, St. Louis Park, Golden Valley police, are aware of those slO. mitons and they are such a point where they are now intmducl~ surveillence camerm that monitor traffic. Intn~luci~ those to have the ability to monitor what's hap~ in the park and fide lots. So yes. In terms of mixing use with Southwest Metro and other uses in the area, that's a great example of how to discounge by use. I think the 1~ ordinance still enters into the issue if during that very slow period of let's say 10:00 in the moring until 2:00 in the aitemoon. There's not a great deal of activi~ going on in the lot. And the perimeter is heavily screened according to the landscape ordinance. It's still... Coundlman Mason: Maybe at some point our Public Sa/ety Commt~/ion lleeds to look into/hat tOO with this particular instance. I don't know. I'm thro~ it out anyways. Scott Ham Well we call that environmmtal crime pmvmtioo. I think the speaker very nicely articulated. Vfnat we're telling residents to do, keep in mind what's going to haItmn with those nice bushes and trees around the house that creates a barrie~ for the patrol officers or neighbors ~o see. 37 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 There are consequences to think about. One of the things we're trying to get involved in more and more with residential and commercial plans is crime prevention from the site plan stage on because environmental crime prevention can prevent so many problems. Frankly it's one of the problems with some of the strip malls. We simply can't see the area from the areas that we patrol. Either because of how the building is located, or because as time goes on, the ability that trees and shrubs have to totally impair the officer's vision of the building so I for one am very pleased to hear environmental crime prevention being talked about. I think it's something wot'th considering and it's kind of tough for us at this point in the community that's rather young to be thinking about but having worked in communities where a number of crimes were perpetrated because the criminal could not be seen, I think it's a great thing to be thinking abouL Councilwoman Dockendoff: I think this is such a select issue that we're talking about, and although we do have in mind where the park and ride lots will be and that the optimal would be to have them shared uses. We have to provide for potentially a park and ride lot where it will be an island so I guess I don't have a problem putting in an exception. Saying that for park and ride lots specifically we'll look at those individually and potentially waive the ordinance. Harold Shelbostad: One suggestion that that might be is that it's peflutps not just park and ride lots but it's perhaps large single use parking facilities might be more generic. Because things like corporate headquarters, even though they are on private property and perhaps they have an aura of security built into them, there is documentation in conversations with police departments that other large single use parking facilities are equal to our's. Park and ride facilities are a new phenomenom and they are extremely attractive to crimiqals jugt because they know about the activities. Has it spread into the corporate headquarters size parking lot? Perhaps not as much because the park and rides are such easy targets. But again, Just to perhaps another way of saying it rather than just park and ride. Large single use. And again, I think what we're searching for here is some kind of flexibility in the site plan review process. As I mentioned, there's lots of musts and shalls and so forth in the ordinance. I think...and staff, Planning Commission and Council are aware of environmental issues. If that can somehow be documented, that might be an option. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well, there are a lot of shalls and musts but I also see a lot of room for moving things around to avoid that and I would think that that would be looked at in the planning staff. Harold Shelbostad: It's Just another layer of complexity that in our modem society we're having to take a look at. Councilwoman Dockendoff: But you also have a good point in that, I mean we may be looking at, I'm thinking of Opus and other sites where we're going to have large, isolated parking lots. It may be better to word that. Mayor Chmtel: I think you're hitting a very good point on lhaL And as it was eluded to before, when you're talking about for instance Target and with the kinds of things we have there. There is activity. There's constant going but still, you're still having some problems as far as criminal 38 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 activities come on. Even in those parking lots. They work hst They move fast and away they go. But yet it's more likely to happen in more isolated areas and one I'm thinking of specifically is, was either Victory Envelope, and I know Scott just left. Or one of the other Carlson areas where they have had substantial amount of break-in's and there is some screening...~ yet there's probably but I think it's something that really has to be looked at and using just say with a large single use. I don't want to take out too many of the may's. I like to keep it sort of tight only because it's much easier for us to work with. But I think with some of the o~er things to put a specific use in there, I thtr~ it's something that we can look at but yet still come up with a dexent recommendation. Mike, did you have someu~h~g? Councilman Mason: No. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Mark? Councilman Senn: Well I like Colleen's idea in terms of the, at least allowing for the potential exception of the park and ride's. At least on the surface, the broad tl~on of ~ingle use facility bothemme. That's too hroad. That's it petXaining to this issue l guess. Ihavesomeotherque~onsI wanted to ask Paul but they didn't have anything to do with this issue. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Thank you. Councilman Mason: Wouldn't this be something that a variance could be applied for then? If that was an issue. Councilman Senn: That's one of the things I was going to ask Paul. Mayor Cbmiel.' Well, that's probably somrAhing. Yeah you can look at but, Paul. Paul Knmss: The concern that I have is real personal and it's the same concem that you raised Mark. About single user parking lots. Most every lot is a single use parking lot. ~nd the fact is, the main exiiu~ize on Target's pafldng lot was not to create a forest around the periphery so you can't see that there's a Target there but to green up in the interior by using overstory trees that you can see ~mder. So maybe we're not talking about completely different ends of the ~ with that bexause it's the lower scrubby stuff, or shrubbery stuff that really does hinder the views. I'm real familiar with the parking lots in Eagan. I drive past ~exn a couple times a day. Also that situation was somewhat unique too because some of these park, one of the park and ride lots is across the street from single family homes and dearly if something had to give, I mean put yourselves in the City Cmmdl of Eagan_ ff som~hing had to give, then it's probably that paddng lot needs better patrolling because it's not fair to let the homes have to look at it. You know I guess when this came up at the Plamflng Commission,the Commission was saying well. How many park and fide lots are we going to have. Two more. And we're looking at least one, the one down at Highway 212 stands to be, is currmfly designed kind of similar to the Eagan one where it's maybe off by itself. It may also be incorpomed into a neighborhood shopping facility. The one we're looking at for the Legion site, I think is ideal. 39 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 It meets James Jacob's ideal for continuous view because you have people coming in and out all the time, which is I think what this is trying to do. But it is kind of a one off situation. There are going to be situations, I mean you may have a, you certainly have a Rosemount which is, you can see a lot of their parking lot but they're off by themselves and they have parking for nearly 500 cars. They also have internal security. So I don't know what the, where the happen medium is. I think yes, the commission indicated that they would be happy to consider special allowances for park and ride lots and yes, we could call that out as a specical case but I don't know what else would be a special case. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. I think I sort of agree with that as well. I do. Okay. With that. Councilman Senn: Could I ask some general questions7 Mayor Chmtel: Sure. Councilman Senn: Not relating to this. Or not relating to the security issue. Paul, in terms of the Target example. I mean I like the Target example, like you say, because of the overstory trees versus the peripheral types of things because I believe that if you put a commercial area there, there's a commercial area there and the people ought to be seen as business people. You shouldn't try to htde your businesses per se. And looking through here, I understand what you're trying to do but I haven't really seen it turn around and eliminate the other. I mean on most businesses, most small businesses, especially for example we make a very deliberate attempt to berm and heavily plant the area between the highway and them and I understand the change here which creates a situation to Target, and maybe I'm missing it but I didn't see the situation which kind of undid that on the other end of the specmam. The other Issue there ts, I don't want to totally undo it because there's useage you want to hide, which gets back to some of the discussions we've had over, you know. I mean some of the uses you know whether you put tt in the agreements or not, there's going to be outside storage or vehicles parked ovemtght and stuff like that. So I mean It's just a realtty of life so to speak. And those types of things you may want to screen more. But tn how, you know I'm looking for some direction. Paul Krauss: Well we can look at clarifying that. It has to do more with the language but if you want to go someplace in the ordinance where, maybe we should be more specific In terms of, you can have Interior parking lot landscaping, you have building landscaping and you have perimeter parking lot landscaping. But the perimeter is designed to buffer a direct use of cars parked immediately adjacent to...boulevard. It's not designed to obscure the entirety of the building or the structure or the uses beyond. I thtnk if you look around the city, the city's done a falriy good job of that... I mean when you look at the hotel paflflng lot and Town Square where there is landscaping around the parking lot. It's not high berms designed to eliminate vtews of the building. There's another example in Eagan, and not to belabor tt but there's a shopping center tn Eagan on...Road that...and it's the dumbest thtng you've ever seen. I mean they've maintained this huge berm with one oak tree on It and you could drive past tt for 2 years not knowing there's a shopping center on the other side. And it's totally empty and they eventually had to come back in and cut down the berm...We can clarify that I think. Councilman Senn: I'd just like to see it clarified because I like the berming like you say to block cars and stuff but I also look at some of the vegetation we put on those berms and granted right now they City Council Meeting - Sept~ber 27, 1993 aren't hiding the businesses but when that vegetation matures, it's gonna. And again, I'd much rather see It go Interior and second story the vegetation and stuff if we could. Paul Krauss: We can sure add some language In them. Councilman Senn: The only other _comment I wanted m make was, wb__-t_~er we accompli,h by additional trees and stuff in Target and stuff, I think we undid by the candy red Hsht posts. Paul Krauss: Yeah, that was a Target creation. There's kind of a story behind that but. Mayor Chmiel: It's supposed to have white stripes on it as well. Camcilman Se~n: That'd make it even better. Paul Krauss: ...but they didn't go in where they supposed to... Councilwoman DockendorP. Yeah, I thought we were going to make the~ change it. Paul Krauss: Well, Kate was negotiating with them. I've got to get up there but they came in and said it's going to cost us an ann and a leg to move these things. Can we give you additional landscap~ in areas around the Highway 5. Councilman Senn: How about painting them in earth rune, like most of them are. Paul I/muss: I guess I can update you on that at the next Council meeting. Councilman Mason: Yeah would you please. I mean I don't care how much it costs ~ if they put Mayor Chmiel: Okay. If hearing no other dtscussic~ Councilwoman Dockendoff: I just have one question. Paul, how much did we get from that seminar that the Arbo~ held last February or himS? Paul Krauss: ...I was not personally there. I _think what we got was some information on tree selection. I now Conn¢timan Wing was there and h~ cam~ back all ~ ho ~ ~ ~ ~ and the kinds of situations that it presenls. On the other harui the lecturer was from California, if I Paul I/muss: Yeah_And it wasn't Wtally clear how peninmt all the details were. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Oh okay. I was just curious, 41 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Paul Krauss: Well but I think, I think that was concurrent with the Target issue...and then you fly over a parking lot in Illinois. Well, they did it there, why can't we do it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Can I have a recommendation for the fl~ reaams ana meomorate the other part of which Colleen has mentioned with the park and fide lots. Councilman Senn: Yeah. I'll move approval of first reading with the exception that language be added to allow for the possible exception of park and fide facilities, or special treatment of them through the site plan review process. And then also a clarification on the issue of the perimeter. Okay. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second. Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the first reading of Zoning Ordinance Amendment to the landscaping requirements for site plan reviews amended to include language to allow for the possible exception of park and ride facilities, or spedal treatment of them through the site plan review process. And also a clarification on the issue of the perimeter landscaping. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT TO SECTION 20-$75 THROUGH REGARDING LOT SIZES. Paul Krauss: This again ls...A couple years ago the Metro Council changed their policies on rural developments to promote clustering. The Planning Commission...mivtmum lot size. They recommended to go down smaller than that tn the rural area but you can't exceed the gross density so in most rural areas you're still stuck with the 1 per 10 acres density. Anyway, when we discussed thts Item we had put In that stuff that was platted prior to 1987, were the only ones that were supposed to be excluded. Somehow tn the codification of the ordinance that got dropped out and they were trying to figuring out where and when. I mean we had problems when people in Lake Lucy Highlands and... came In and said, well I'm not sitting on this 5 acre lot and you're now...half acm, 15,000 square feet can I sulxltvtde. And the intent was never that we rocked the cart for existing subdivisions because clearly those things were fairly recent vintage and tt was not, that was not intended to be the case. Anyway, Kate prepared an amendment that would correct that. That basically said A1 and A2 residential districts located outstde of the Metro Council's MUSA line shall be created with conformance to Article 10 and 11, which is the 1 per 10 stuff. Basically what tt does ts tt has the effect of prohibiting anything smaller than a 2 1/2 acre lot in those rural divisions we have tmtde of the MUSA line, which ts consistent wlth...the ordinance of these things were mated under. So we... Councilman Senn: This is the way it's always been? Paul Krauss: Theoretically yeah... Councilman Senn: But we undid it and now we need to redo it again? 42 City Cotmcl! Meeting - September 27, 1993 Paul Krauss: We undtd tt by accident and we've got to put it flgl~ Councilman Senn: So moved. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Under Article 10-7, we have mintmmn driv~ay~ for coHeclDl's ~ artefln~s. Where docs thc cul-de-sac fit tn them? Or ts tt just omttted tmrim~y? Saying that there isn't a minimum. Mayor Chmicl: Article 10-82, number 7. Paul Krauss: I don't think there's one dow~ Mayor Chmicl: That's under A2, Agricultural Eslate District. ~nd it probably should have it. Paul Kra~: We can come back and give you t_h_st on_.. Coundlwoman Dockcndorf: I thought_ essentially it was omitted on purpose. Roger Knutson: Driveway separation on major roadways. Patti Krauss: Yeah, it's thc major reason for it. I guess unless there's some other purpose. I mean on cul-de-sacs. Roger Knutson: On multiple streets you wouldn't have... Councilwoman Dockendoffi So it's purposely not, then no minimum? Roger Knutson-' I would think that's cormc~ Councilwoman Doclrcndoffi Okay. then, that's where you come in with thc eascmem or whatever. Mayor t'~micl: Okay. Any other question~? ff not, we have a motion? Is thta~ a second? Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Zoning Ordinance Amendment to Section 20-$7S through 20-S9S regarding lot sizes as presented by staff. All voted in favor and the motion carried. COUNCIL PRE~ENTATION$~ 43 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Mayor Chmiel: We'll go to Michael's for speeding, Lake Lucy Road. Councilman Mason: First of all I apologize for making Mr. Hart stay here this late. I have been getting a certain amount of flack about speeds on Lake Lucy Road and I also understand that Public Safety Commission is looking into it. I guess I'd just kind of like an update so when people continue to call me, I can say well doggone it, I know what's going on. Scott Hart: ...two of them in the same car but we were both out there. Actually it's Irind of good I have to be here at this hour anyway... The Public Safety staff has be~n meeting internally since last year to try and develop customer service concepts to help make the process easier because people utilizing our services and one of the things we started this summer was staying open on Thursday nights for primarily residents as opposed to builders that need consultation help or need permits and just can't get in here during business hours. So we stay open late on Thursday eventngs. We have a secretary, mechanical and building impector available until 7:00 or so and people are utilizing it more and more. They really appreciate that time because it's more convenient. Especially...At the last Public Safety Commission, Mike is fight that a number of residents from the Lake Lucy Road area, west of Powers come in and express their concerns about traffic safety. I think I can sum it up by stating that their concerns revolved around the increased traffic levels that are remflting from the detour, speed and the safety of pedestrians and bicyclists along the pathway. On the road side. They recommended a number of ideas to the Commission including lowering the speed limit to a constant 30 mplt Right now it's 35 and then lowers to 30 at the S curve further west there and widening the road. Raising the grade of the bicycle path. Bicycle lane so it's definitively different than the grade of the road. And increasing traffic enforcement. Now I'll start with the last first. Traffic enforcement has been aggressive along that road all the time but there is no other road getting more trafflce enforcement. And Bob and I were out there tonight. Wrote a number of tickets. There's a County squad assigned 7 hours a day to just traffic fight now and I'd say half of that is being done on Laire Lucy. There simply is no other stretch of road getting more, and there are people speeding. I don't know that it's a whole lot more than other areas and certainly there is more traffic right now with the detour but there are tickets being written and they're being written for significantly beyond the speed limit. 15 to 20 mph over when they get them or people are being talked to. So that's being done. As far as the speed limit, the widening of the road and raising the level...has been put into a memo and sent to Charles and his staff for review. Again the policy frankly that was brought to the attention of the group is that most of these people are relatively new residents and Mr. BerhnJelm, who I'll remind you is the Police Chief in Edina and a long standing resident of Chanhassen, told us that he was one of the people at the meeting with the neighborhood and the road as it now exists was what the neighbors at that time wanted. And so there's, I'm not sure what's going to happen with that. When you have what the neighbors wanted and now the new neighbors want something that is considerably pricier. I talked to the City Manager about it a number of times. I know Don's concerned. I believe that the answer lies in educating the users of that roadway. That they have to stick with the speed limit. We spent a number of weeks issuing warnings. Now we're issuing tickets. I think we'll be able to control the speed that way. Then as far as the increase volume, I just don't know what to say about that. It's going to be there for a while. We're starting to see what appears to be a slowing of traffic. I think people are getting the ides~ Todd can vouch for it. He lives fight there. He's seen us Council Meetl~ - September 27, 1993 out there. So we're taking the concerns seriously and doing a lot. Like I said, there's no other stretch of mad in the city that gets more attention. Mayor _Chmtel: And I think too, ~s Todd has tndt~ or as Scott has indicated, that awareness is some of the thing flint's going to be d~ne as well and we've had discussions regarding having the and that's going to be going out maybe in just. Scott Ham And it has, but the Mayor's right. I mean it's educating the fulL.drivers but on Friday there was a squad car working Lake Lucy for 4 hours and after 3 hours a comp_lstm came in about excessive speeds by tmcXs. And the deputy said well, I'm there fl~oht_ now. I'll spend another hour and we'll clock...a~ he just told her. He said, these are big trucks. I realize they look like they're speeding but I've been sitting here for 4 hours and they're not...so we're working on it. Mayor Cinniel: Thank you. Let's go to the auto related uses zoning. ADMINISTRATIVE PRF_~ENTATIONS: AUTO RELATED USE ZONING~ PLANNING DIRECTOR. Paul Krauss: Mr. Mayor, I think we're all aware that...of this Si~g la~ last whenever. Late last winter and going il~ sDrin~, We asked for some daflfication in what should be inc~ We took it to the Planning Commissior~ They raised a lot of issues that weren't, I would say totally before...where was going and...Anyway, I sat down and I composed a memo to Roger saying here's what I think the Council is asking for in terms of what I was...come up with an ordinance for iL We had gotten the ordinance back. I apologize because of my need to be out of the amnUy over the summer, being able to get back to it. But basically we have the ordinance in place now. We're prepared to ~e it back to the Plalmirlg Commission for pllbli¢ hearhlg but we really walHed tv get your feAxiback Oil it if we could. For a couple of reasons. Hrst of all we're still not sure exactly where it's going alXl what it accomplishes. Secondly I'll guarantee you, it's going to raise, I mean you saw John Ptyzmus' issues tonight and he doesn't even have a buildtn~o. Think about all the au-to related uses that do have buildings that will become non-conforming. I mean we're willing to stami up and push it ff you want us to but I want to know ff you want us to do it. And the second thing was, or the third thing was that, I guess we always tried to be up front. We thought__ there were other ways of achieving a lot of what you were trying to achieve. We put our efforts on complefln~ the Highway 3 plan, which is not before the Planning Cornmisaion. And that does not eliminate auto related uses but it raises the development ~ for them. We also talked about the fact that in the PUD District you can still have an auto related use. Of course PUD is a rezoning action on the part of the City Coundl and you do have some additional latitude there... Also, we've been going through the ordtnanances about 20 mirth're8 ago, pa/king lot landscaping... None of these things are going to eliminate them or give you 45 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 the ability to say yea or nay on a particular site, which I think was one of the goals that you had. And maybe Roger wants to comment but I'm pretty, I'm somewhat leery about an ordinance that verges on allowing people to...to some extent by saying whether or not this is a good site, bad site without exactly knowing why. Sooner or later people are going to be treated in a different manner. It leaves it open for Planning Commission, City Council has one interpretation. A neighborhood group might have a completely different interpretation. There are a lot of questions with it. So again I wanted to bring this back to you. Get your direction and... Mayor Chmiel: Okay, good. Discussion. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Me? Mayor Chmiel: Yes. Councilwoman Dockendorf: I really appreciate the work that staff put into it because it clarifies in my mind where our problem parcels are and what we can do to mitigate potential problems because it continues to be a concern but I don't think by creating new zoning, I don't think that's the solution. I think we have enough measures in place to accomplish what we want to accompl~ or not allow what we don't want to allow. So I really appreciate the work but I concur with the City Manager's recommendations. Junk it. Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Michael. Councilman Mason: Well I'm yeah, I guess with ail the work that's gone on here, I'm comfortable with the fact that them are few enough parcels that they can be dealt with without crating, boy about layering of complexities. I certainly see that's what this would be doing. I concur with Councilwoman Dockendoff and the Manager's recommendation. Mayor Chmiel: I do too but I'd like to make one clarification in the conclusion. There's a name of Mason there. Councilman Mason: No relation. Mayor Chmiel: That has nothing to do with Michael. Councilman Mason: It is no relation. Thank you. Thank you so much. Mayor Chmiel: Mark. Councilman Senn: Paul in terms of existing parcels, okay I understand what you've done is broken it down here and said we've basically got 3 or 4. Okay, what about ail the existing parcels which there are now auto related uses on but which also would allow redevelopment under auto related uses? C~ty Council Meeting - Selmmaber 27, 1993 Paul ~: Well, let's tnke your first question first, ~ that's a Httle easier. There wns a map that we prepared that did show some nddlltonal pamels. Last week was kind of nuts. This week is kind of nuts. Don and I didn't get a chance W go through the list. There were some other ~es that were identified as potential sites. Well, you know ttmt lhere's a lhird pro~rty at A~year. WI~ Don's talking about is there's a remnent piece on the comer tt~ we've always been...~y, directly across from McDonald's where the road jogs right dow~ There is a site next to the motel... Again I think it's rather marginal although we did have Russ Pauly for a while looking at a car wash on thaL.. Those were...keep in mind the Target PUD does have two auto rels__ted uses approved as a part of the, oh the Burdtck piece is another one. They're...then Charlie James which Don mentioned. Target does have two auto relal~l uses approved under the PUD but there's a lot of strings attached in terms of what they look like...nnd ttutt sort of thing. Likewise, the Market Square PUD could allow some to occur, in fact there's one betng looked at right now. I think it was shown to the HRA. Panl Krauss: Well there's an office building anti I think a We~ly's...Now I couldn't lay my hands on that m~. I'm not sum if...It may be in my office. But that was ~ the size of it. I mean anylhtng else that comes in, you have a lot of latitude. First of all things are going to be in the Highway 5 corridor. Secondly, if things are in, the thing that ~ Abrn/Croodyear apart was that it was in the TIF district and you couldn't...and say, well the onltnnnce doesn't say you can do ~his. You actually get the money so it... Councilman Senn: But if they don't ask you for money, you've got no hooks. Paul Krauss: Right. But so far nobody's been able. And the other parcel is subject to zoning ~ on the part of Ihe City Council. There's some sUings...Charlie James' pray. el. In f~ct he's com~E here I thinic..and it's not clear at this point whelher the auto related uses is part of it or not Ixtt we're talking to h~m about... Councilman Sc~n: But it's an allowable use on his ~ Paul Krauss: Well fight now, yes. And there's an outstand/ng issue with Charlie and the fact that he has approval for a gas...and he's always maintained that that approval transfe~...I don't know if it's ultimately going to be a question that's resolved by a (x)ndemnaflon proceeding or what not, but the site that he has approv~ to build a convenience store on doesn't exist anymore. It's now part of the 78th Street and part of Target's parking lot so whether thaL..I can't tell you R's never going to happexL I mean I tried to get that point across. There is still the potential for one popping up that will raise some issues. I guess the concern that, ~he biggest concern that I have though i~..on the potential of something happening versus under the way this ordinance is slmaured fight_ now, you are significantly impacting a number of existing businesses, tightly or wrongly, this is nn offslx~t of how we approach it. I have concern with how such an ordinance would be administered down the pike. Anytime something is open to subjective ~on. We try to put some guidance in there. That's why we wrote the intent section for that ordinance the way it is. But it's still somewhat subjective. Is it a good site or isn't it a good site? Well, staff initially said it was okay. The Plmming Commt~on City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 said it was okay but a lot of people came in and said it wasn't at a public hearing so is it okay now? I don't know. That's not a good basis for a City Council to have to make a decision. Councilman Senn: Well it seemed to me that, and I'm going by memory now but I thought I counted up about almost a dozen parcels where we could in effect end up with auto related uses. Now you could take a few out of there... To me I don't...because auto related uses are real easy developments without TIF assistance. You know in terms of, they don't need TIF. Sure, it'd be nice to ask for it but if that's the difference between getting an auto facility in there or not, it seems to me they're not going to ask for TIF. Paul Krauss: I have to bring up that last one. There can be a... We know the third Abra/Goodyear site...The Ward property is potentially, which it'd have to have a rezoning action but the parcel next to the motel... The parcel next to the bank, the liRA owns. Councilman Senn: Yeah, and the new TH 101 parcel. That new, I thought there was going to be a parcel fight by TH 101 and there was a small parcel that will be created by the reaiigumenL Wasn't there a parcel there? Councilwoman Dockendorf: On which corner? Paul Krauss: On the south comer? Councilman Senn: No, on the north. On the north side. Paul Krauss: No, there isn't one. There's a corner that we own what is kind of a low area. Councilman Senn: But I thought there was already some pmposai flying around about expanding the uses over from the Hanus building or something towards the, into where the Red-E-Mix property was, or what's left over after the realignment. Paul Krauss: Oh no. What happened there is, in ail likelihood we're going to, we already own the Hanus property. Ultimately it's supposed to be sold back to a private owner after the site's improved. But the city's in condemnation to own everything from Hanus out to the old Taco. And what we had, and I put it in your packet for I think the last meeting. I was approached by the owner of AVR on, they did a very expensive model on how to redevelop this site and it really was... I showed it to a number of people and I said you can go to the City Coundl and the lIRA but if you really want to see this, we'll have a presentation done but it's not... Councilman Senn: Well if you keep counting, we've got the Market Square one. You've got the Charlie James one. You've got, I don't know. Again, without the map I'm a little handicapped but I thought it ended up being about a dozen parcels and that really still concerns me. And like I say, the TIF you know, when it comes to auto related, I really don't, I mean TIF is a btg...I've seen a lot of automotive developed in TIF districts just by simply not utilizing TIF. And stuff. Minnetonka's worked. I mean why did you guys, I thought you were in Minnetonka for a time. They did the same 48 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 ~ Minnetonka's onlinmce separa~ out the auto uses. It made non-conforming uses out of a number of thcm. That's worked fine over the years. Paul Krauss: Mark, that wasn't done while I was there. We did treat ~ related uses. Coundlman Senn: As a separate district. Paul Krauss: ...conditional uses. But they were allowed. There was a conditional use...and they weren't easy to put in but they were done. Paul Krauss: With that one particular was I think TH 7 and TH 41 was very conlrov~. One of the auto related use aspects that was further away from the neighborhood than the ~ comer Was. Coundlman Senn: WeU there was some concern expressed over the potmflal or ~ one on the south side of TH 5 and TH 41 by the reside~ back in there. Paul Krauss: Yes and that's it. It comes under PUD and you have, again you have quite a bit of latitutde I~ say yes or no. I mean it's not a site that's zoned commerda[. The only way commercial uses can come in there is if it's an ancillary part of an overail'PUD...and if you say that in your wisdom that's an okay site for something like thai to go. So you have the ability to ms_ke that decisiolt You're not obligated to make it. Mayor Cbmtel: Okay. I guess I too am in agreanen~ and I'm not going to go into a long dissertation. It's getting past 10:30 and I thought we'd be out of he~. I'd like to, I don't think we have to, we don't neexi a motion for this. I think basically what's here, what is said is at least the main feeling of 3 of us, and I'm not sure where Mark's comin~ fi'om. If be f~is comfori~le with it or not. More or less just drop it because ~'s not that much of real concern with what's lef~ within the city. So with that; I don't have to have a motion on that do I Roger? Don Ashworth: Mr. Mayor? Mayor Chmiel: Yes Dam Don Ashworth: I want to mske sure that my recommend___sti_ on is clear. Although I think 'that the ordinance as dmfl~ is overkill, I am not saying that we should walk away from those parcels that potcntislly are problems. I'm sayin~ let's go back in and fix those. I mean the Mason parcel, not part of your relationship. There's a potenltai solution for thaL The W~xl pro~rty md really fl~ht on down the line. Some of them, like Paul menfl~ the piece next to the motel. I agree thst the zoning exists but it's a swamp. I mean I don't see how anybody could use it for anything I~ I guess 49 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 we'd have to look further at the site but I mean it's a swamp. Anyway, I'm saying don't walk away from those pieces. Councilman Senn: Don, I understand that and that's exactly my concern because auto related uses are the only use that I know of today that can support $10.00 a square foot land cost and you can fix a swamp for $10.00 a square foot in land cost. You can't put anything else there but you can put auto there and that's what happem countless time and Omc again. In otber locations. Don Ashworth: But I firmly believe that that lot would be classified under our wetland protection and you could not. Councilman Senn: Well if that's a different fix, then I'd love to see the fixes but I haven't seen the fixes on this almost dozen parcels that I'm really concerned about. Don Ashworth: And I agree with you. I say let's do the fixes. Paul Krauss: Well, what we can do is come back to you...and try to give you an explanation on eaw. ah. Mayor Chmiel: I think that'd be a good idea. Okay. Consent agenda. I guess you've got a few more here Mark. You've got all of them. Go ahead. C. APPROVE CHANGE ORDER TO TH 101 SOUTH LEG PROJECT 90-20~ AND D. APPROVE CHANGE ORDER TO TH 101 NORTH LEG PROJECT 88-22C. Councilman Senn: Charles. On 2(c), the current contract amount was $489 but what was the original contract amount7 Charles Foleh: I believe it was... Mayor Chmiel: I think you're fight because...I called ]aim and asked him the same question and what he's saying is basically right. Because I thought there was a different price as well. Councilman Senn: Okay, and so the $489 is now with the other increase? Charles Folch: That's correct, yes. Councilman Senn: Okay. On 2(d), who's paying. Mayor Chmiel: Before we move that one, would you move approval of c? Councilman Senn: Well one more question then as it relates to both. I don't know whether it's (c) or it's (d). One way or another but I heard the trail design, which was previously to the north part of South Lotus ts now no longer to the north part of South Lotus. I mean I heard that it's now the south part of South Lotus. South entrance versus north entrance. 5O City Coundl Meeting- September 27, 1993 Charles Folch: I was not aware of any change here. The plans that were appwved with the project had the trail going up to the south emmnc~ at this point in time. It's not extruding to the north elxtrance. Don Ashworth: If I may. I had relayed to Mark, ~ we had to the south leg, you're absolutely correct. And then in looklng at it, saytng wcll does thts make my sense. Let' s carry it up to that north leg and the initial meetings with BRW were under that premise. What occurred then is BRW found some factual basis for why it would be difficult to do that and then it left out of the final documents. And I guess what I'm hearing Maxk, Cmmcilman Senn say is, what were the qualified, what were the tl~ngs that knocked out that potentiaL Charles Folch: One that comes to mind rather quickly is that townhome building that's immediately north of the south entrance. They have a berm that they have some screening and some shrub~ on. Basically that berm would have been sliced and the trees or shrubbery would have come off the bean and it would have been sliced in half. You would have h~d to put a retalnin~ wall to even xn~ that berm at that height to maintain the screening and I know the Mayor received a few calls on this also from a few people in that building 'that were concerned about maintaining the screening ami such from Highway 5. Some of the other conga,/ms going to the north. We would have probably had to add some additional storm sewer because we've got a culvert ax)ssing that feeds down through that park area there. And we felt that basi~y, by the time the derisions were made to st~ the trail at the south entrance because of these constraints, there really wasn't any discussions at that point in time about looking at the broader scope of the trail along TH 101. And so I think ff the project goes project. But the decision was made at the _time we...flmt it's just too ~mcult to do at ~ point in time and yet meet the concerns of the residents. Coundlman Senn: So that was taken out of the contract doaune~ls prior to? Charles Folch: Well, it was in preliminary design but it did not ever make it to f~n~l design. Councilman Senn: Because I remember it in ~ but I mean, when it was taken out in final, ~ it wasn't included in the contract right? Okay. Alfight. Mayor Clgniel: Okay, can we move on (c) and (d)? Co~n_ciiman Satin: Move on (c). I have a question on (d), ff you want to do them separately. Mayor Clgniel: ff you want to move them both, I can just ask the question- Who's paying for all the costs associated with the MnDOt request7 Is MnDot paying for it or ate we? Charles Folch: No we are. Basically that's, we're doing the entire tguJect. It's something that the requirement came out of the single design review that we received from MnDoL ~y shortly after the bids were awarded, they awarded the bids conflnge~ I receive~..but no, that's a city cost just itlre the signal and everything else. 51 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Councilman Senn: And as far as the approximate $12,000.00 or whatever on 2(c) and now with 7 before on this. I mean that's what, we have additional TIF funds in that district still to pay that or whatever7 Charles Folch: On 2(c), it's actually only additional, well the change order at this time is the $3,000.00 change order for 2(c). Councilman Senn: But the previous one included two. I think between the two. C2mrles Folch: Right. And that's a separate district that we use to cover the South Leg project as opposed to the North Leg project Yeah, the amount should not be omitted. It's not going to affect the amount of the district. Mayor Chmiel: Okay, can we move on (c) and (d)? Councilwoman Dockendorf: He moved on (c). Councilman Senn: No I haven't. Councilwoman Dockendorf: Oh I'm sorry... Councilman Senn: So moved. Mayor Chmieh Is there a second? Councilman Mason: Second. Resolution g93-94: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Change Order No. 2 to the Trunk Highway 101 Realignment (South Leg) Project No. 90-20. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Resolution g93-95: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Contract Amendment No. 1 for the Tl~mk Highway 101 Realignment (North Leg) Railroad Improvement project as attached adding $7,451.00 to the total contact amount for the traffic signal preemption control equipment. All voted in favor and the motion carried. F. SET DATE FOR SPECIAl. CITY COUNCIL WOItK~qESSION~ OCTOBER 4. Councilman Senn: I didn't know if anybody else had a problem with that night. When we talked about it last week, we said we were going to get together for a quick 15 minute meeting or whatever. I have a problem beyond thaL I didn't know if anybody else did or not. Obviously not. Mayor Clamtel: No, I don't. 52 City Council Meeting - Septem~ 27, 1993 Councilman Senn: Okay. Councilwoman Dockendorf:. But you aren't able to make it Mark? Councilman Senn: No. I will not be there then. Unless something drastic Chmages but I don't always Mayor Ctuniel: Okay. Can we move on 2(0. Councilman lVttlson: So moved. Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second? Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second. Councilman Mason moved, Councilwoman nockendorf seconded to set the date for the special City Council meeting for October 4, 1993. All voted in ~vor and the motion carried. IL MINNEWASHTA MANOR HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION ~ATION BI~ACI:ll.0T INTERIM USE PERMIT, ~CATION OF CONDITION, Councilman Se3m: (h) we already did too didn't we? Councilwoman ~rf: Yeah. We pulled it. Mayor Chmlel: Claflfi~on of condition_ Not on that one to my knowledge. Councilwoman Dockendorf: We dealt with it though. I have it crossed off. Councilman Mastm: Yes we did. On Mlnnewashta we dealt with it already. The gemlemem, we talked about 2(h). Mayor Clvntel: Oh yeah, you're right_ Councilman Senn: Yeah (g) we moved to the next meeting and (h) we approved. Mayor Chmiel: But I did not put that for an approval. So can I have an approval at this time? Coundlwoman Dockendoffi I think we did. Cotmdlman Senn: We approved it. Mayor Cbmtel: Did we? 53 City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Councilman Senn: Yeah. Mayor Chmiel: I got it checked here for being pulled. Councilman Mason: Well we'd better do it again. Mayor Chmteh Let's do it just to be on the safe side. Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve the clarficiafion of conditions for Minnewashta Manor Homeowners Association Recreation Beachlot Interim Use Permit. All voted in favor and the motion carried. I. APPROVAL OF ACCOUNTS. Councilman Senn: A question for Roger. On your memorandum. If I'm understanding your memorandum fight, basically it's okay for the City to approve the HRA expenditures? Roger Knutson: Right. Councilman Senn: Doesn't the HRA have to do some sort of approval of those same expenditures7 Roger Knutson: No, they authorized you to do it, which I have. Mayor Chmieh Because so many things are intertwined within the city and if I remember co~y, our Deloitte and Touche, our auditor's also recommended that we go through that same. Roger Knutson: I had a rather lengthy discussion with the auditors on the subject. They were more than comfortable that they recommended this process. You don't have to do it of course. Councilman Senn: Okay then how, I mean I guess in effect how do we know that all the approvals are there for a project before you approve the expenditure or a contract or whatever when we neither approve the contract or the project7 I don't understand that. Roger Knutson: On many...projects you're involved in approving the TIF funds. I mean how do you know a particular bill is justified7 Councilman Senn: Yeah. Or is it a contract tbere and that it meets the contract terms7 Roger Knutson: Essentially the same way you do frankly on any other item on your accounts payable. That's something that's going to have to be reviewed. If you have a question, you can call. You can pick off any item on here and there's always, you can ask a question as to whether it's been authorized. 54 City Council Meeting - SetXember 27, 1993 Councilman Senn: D/m, internally on staff pwcedure, I mean if there's some~ that exceeds a comract amoum or an appwv~ contract amoum, does that come back ia au/tonically then? ~ incre~tng the size of the comra~ I mean I haven't seen tim always ~ I didn't think it was automatic. Don Ashworth: The first whack at it is, the I-IRA c. ann~ do my projects unless they include that project as a part of their TIF plan. So each year they submit to you the proposed TIF plan and it shows under their commllnity Celllgr, x mimber of dolllll~. Se~lior Ix)Rging, or senior center and there's an amount set for that. Then the next step in the process is the ac~_,s! letting of a amUacC So in the case of, I'm trying to think of some.. Coundlman Sam: Well like in ~he case of the mRe~aimnent complex them was an I-IRA approval of first phose study or design but it was not to exceed I think ~25,000.00 or something, and we exceeded that amount a long time ago. I mean we're way over that. We're probably double that now. I mean you're saying Council approves it but I have never seen any c. onUact mod_iff_cations come in and say that that's changed, nor have I seen an liRA action do that Todd Geflmrdt: The $25,000.00 was for the ectmomic development district. I think there was. Councilman Senn: No, this was the ente~ent, I mean this was the community center complex back behind where we're talking about the bowling alley. I arum the bills keep rolling in_ Todd Gerhardt: We went through a extensive review of amhRects and they outlined what their cost would be associated with the preliminary gtudt~. I can't remember if there was a $25,000.00 not to exceed for that. Don Ashworth: It was a percent of the contract was the basic paymenL That any work done in advance of actually coming up with the particular design was being paid on an hourly basis. Coundlman Senn: But it had a cap on it in the HRA action...the cap. Don Ashworth: I don't recall thaL Coundlman Senm Well, I'll dig it out and get it to you later tlgn and we'll just deal with R that way. Last question is, as far as these accounts then go. Are you saying when we approve liRA accounts we are approving payment of liRA expendRums out of HRA acc.~, not city accounts? Roger Knutson: Of course. Mayor Chmiel: Yes. R'd better be. City Council Meeting - September 27, 1993 Councilman Senn: So none of these items in here under HRA or like the Hanus building or any of that, none of that money is being spent out of any city funds? It's all purely liRA funds? Is that true Don? Don Ashworth: That's correct. Roger Knutson: If I could. I don't want to belabor this but it's like a change order. I mean mistakes could theoretically happen. If you approve a construction contract for $100,000.00 and you spend, a fixed fee and it goes more than that and they have to come in for a change order. The same would be tree on an HRA contract or anything else. The contract needs to be amended. Councilman Senn: Okay. Can you tell me what a condemnation commission is? I've never heard of it before. Roger Knutson: Condemnation commission? Councilman Senn: Yeah. We're paying somebody commission to. Roger Knutson: To the Condemnation Commissioners. You don't pay a commission. Councilman Senn: So this is a mis. Well, there's condemnation commissioner tn here too. But there's also in here it says condemnation commission. Roger Knutson: I'm not sure. Councilman Senn: On page 4. It just says condemnation commission for Eckankar and I mean back here further It says condemnation commissioner. Roger Knutson: They don't work on commissions. Councilman Senn: No, I didn't think so. I was just curious. Because on page 6 tt says condemnation commissioner. Roger Knutson: They get per diem. Mayor Chmlel: Okay. We have a motion to accept that amount. Councilman Senn: It has to be somebody else. I'm still uncomfortable. Mayor Chmiel: I'll move lt. Councilman Mason: Second. 56 City Cotmcil Meeting - September 27, 1993 Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilrrmn Mason seconded to approve the accounts payable as presented. All voted in favor, except Councilman Senn who opposed, and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 1. Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Counoilmim Mason seconded to adjourn the meefln~ All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:50 p_m. Submitted by Don Ashworth City Manager Prepared by Nann Opheim 57