1993 08 23CHANHA$SEN CI]T COUNCIL
REGULAR lVl]~'TING
AUGUST 2.3, ~
STAFF {PRI~SI~v'r: Dou Aahw~, Roger {Cn,,tsou, Todd OethardL C~ Folch, Paul KtA-,a, Sharmin Al-
.Taft, Scott Han' and Todd Hoffmun
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason secimded to ~ the ~
with the following additions uncl~ Council Presen~ Councilman Wing wan~ to _comment on Mad~
motiee carried.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCI~VIENT~: RECOGNITION OF AMI~ICAN LEGION POST ~80.
Mayc~ Chmicl: We have a public snnouncemeat Ioday. I'd ~ Io do this with the American Legion f~
recognition of award and if Ozzie Chadderdon would come forward hem with me. I'd like Io present you
something. I would like to take this opIxnlmfity to recognize the geammsity of the _Clmnh~ ~ ~
Americau Lesion Post 580 for th~ contn'bution that make. Chnnhnemell a 8af~ ~ tO lJ~. It gives me gre~
members and thank them f~um the city.
Ozzie ~n: Thank you very much. We do m~ny things in other areaa also for the gommnnhy 8ach 88
scholarships, we ~ a lot of softball, we're enlermtnmmt fur many people, arid we hope that we cae
continue to do this. This 81uubHng deal with the Stal~ im so mgged thnt it's really tough. Last Nflday we met,
four of us for an hour and a h_nlf, to try and 8ttaJghten ottt _things that the State didn't like and I said after the
end of that, I said God is it worth it. But I guess it is. ThAne you very much.
YI~TOR PRESENTATIONS;
the letl~r which wa~ to es~ a policy regarding c~mmied_On add citizeIl IHld elIlployee involvement when
dealing with city issues. Thank you.
Court__ ImAn W'mg: Cnn I just Ask _thAt Jim t~ng that back on ns An Agenda item to tt~ ~ cadet different
circumstances nnd then talk fcA'reAlly About IhAt_-
rum Audrews: Yes sir.
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
2A. DISTRICT 112 YOUTH COMMISSION! NATALIE ROSSaNI AND SUSAN HIJ~M.
Mayor Chmleh We called on you last week but you weren't here. That's alflght. It's nice to sec you tht~
evening.
Sn~n Hurm: We needed a little more time to get organized. Thank you. Natalie's going to be handing out a
packet that has all the information that we're going to be t_Alking about tonight...This is our agenda, to keep us on
track. It has a list of everything that's in the packet. Our first Youth Commission first annuaL.They labored
numy hours over this.
Natalie Rossini: Okay we're going to slart on Page 2. I'm just going to walk you through hero and give you
some follow-up on some of the things that I mentioned the last time we met in April. and some of our goals...
The first thing I'm going to, I told you I'd come back and mile to you. Well I have. We're going to be up4n0ng
this youth dtrectory...and really would like to get some volunteer opportunities from the Chanhassen area for the
Chanhassen children and youth. $o we're asking that anyone that knows of oppottmfltics ...or other
organi~fions that would bring them to our attention. The purple form is what you would fill out and send to
us... We would definitely like to sec the Chanhassen...The next one that I was going to brief you on is thc
leadership...And then if you turn to Page 6. The form on Growing up Female that was with the League of
Women Voters and what we did, they have come to us again to ask if we would help them present their results
of the survey that they took a couple years ago and I _think I described it before but we're going to, this lmaject
would involve production of the...I plan to serve another year on that. I think our next meeting will be in
September. We haven't met because, I think our last meeting was in...In the rest, page 8 thru 1~, those just are
summaries of all the youth commission minutes for the year. The youth commission's goal for '93-94, the big
goal is that we're going to kind of do a needs assessment, and that's on page 16 of the annual repo~ And
we're not sure yet bow we're going to collect the mm so we need to get out there and find out what youth feel
is needed and some of the suggestions at their brainstorming session were doing surveys or...posstbly _m__lle about
it during paren~he~ conferences...Thc other thing was communication. We had a problem trying to get our
members in place and so if we can backtrack a little bit on page 4. We've got kind of a schedule so that we
know when we should be recruiting. When we should have our members in place and we'll be working with
Todd on that so that we can get our youth and our adult members in place...all our members. We've added one
member and..~md as a result of that, it's on an every 2 year term now and we'd like, we can use the same form
that they're using throughout District 112 for _that_ application form and that is also...wc've added'a new member
or new position to our Youth Commission. And on thc gold sheet, it _miles about thc lettea' of undersumding and
on the back side, at the very bottom...and thc reason is because we felt that since we're...so we have a youth
serving in that position now. The person who is thc youth representative for that, and the commission would
like the Council ...youth and a community education counselor...And we arc coming to you to Ask you if YOU
could make a motion to accept this new position. And what we're doing is we're going out to alL.. It will be
changed from 13 members to ac.n)nlly 14 members. So I don't know if you'd do that now or ff you don't agree
Mayor Chrniel: Did you say from 13 to 147
Natalie Rossini: Yes.
Mayor Chrnlel: I'll wait until yon complete your preseatation.
Susan Hurm: I think we're done.
NntnlieRossini: Ithink:so. Tlmtwasoim...
Mayor Chmiel: I can see that sinc~ Atnil of '92 through Jun~ of '93, having 22 meetings, that's going lomb.
'['n~'s really neat to see thnt there's collsis~ ~ ~ ~ ~n goin~ ~ wilh this. And it's a
questions thnt the Council ~y ~? Ifnot, Iwouldlik~to~amotion for th~tnewpositi~fimn 13to
14 members. Adding one.
action.
stren~ what ti~-y're doin~ and Settins sometxxly on board as quickly as ~y pmstbly can.
Mayer Chmiel: Is there n second?
Councilwomnn Dockendo~: I'H sec, md it.
Conndlmnn Mason moved, Conndlwoman Dockend~ seconded to change the Youth Commksism fi-mn
13 members to 14 membe~. Ail voted in favor and the moflo~ cnrrled nn~lmou~y.
Natalio Rossini: Thank yoll. I just had OhO moro quostk~ Oth~ thnn tho Youth Commimion= do yOll hnvo nny
Mayer Chmiel: Let us think about it to see if thew's some additional that we.
No__m__lie Rossini: Well thank yon very much.
;lB. EXTE2qSION OF NI~ PERCE DRIVl~ DAVID DONNAs 881 VIN~LAND COURT.
DavidDoo~'- l'nnnk you Mr. Mnyor. My~meisDnvidDon~.881V'me, landConn. Befa~Igetsmm~I
11:30 today that I was on the agenda for this so I spent most of the ~ putting this ~ogefluz ~nd my
3
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
determination to extend Nez Perce onto Pleasant View and after that I talked with Councilman Wing and
Councilman Senn. I mlired with Dave Hempol who's on the city staff. And after a lot of discussions with each
of these people, Councilman Wing suggested I make this presentation so I'd like to thank tho Council and the'
Mayor and staff for giving me this opportunity. I'm aware that the Council and the staff has already spent a lot
of time on this issue and may even be fed up with the whole issue. I'm also aware though that tho Council and
staff want to do the right thing. Make the right decisions and I'm hoping that this desire to do the right thing
that will help us to keep an open mind and consider other alternatives. In t~llring with Mr. Wing and Mr. Senn
and Mr. Hempel it's clear that the current plan for the extension of Ncz Perce will create moro traffic on Nez
Perce and more traffic on Pleasant View. In addition, when the Troendle and Owens development are complegd
the~ will be more traffic on Lake Lucy. That's something that hasn't been discussed before~ With more houses
we're going to have more traffic on all the roads in the area. It's also clear that with the cun~nt plan, the people
on Lake Lucy are very happy. They see that as the best of all evils so to speak. Some trs_ff~e will be taken
away from that road. The people on Pleasant View am upset, as the Council knows. The people on Nez Perce
are upset. The people on Vincland are upset. Sust to put things in perspec~ve. In Vineland, I live on the cul-
de-sac. I don't live right on Nez ~ so this really isn't directly affecting mc but I do sec the kids in the
neighborhood that play on Nez Perce, that travel on Nez Perce, and so I can take somewhat of a step back from
the whole situation because of where I live. But I also see the impact on all the neighborhoods in the area.
What's upsetting people the most, and that's everybody. The people on Lake Lucy. The people on Pleasant
View. The people on Nez Perce, is traffic and people see increased IraflSc and the danger that comes with it and
that's why this is such a hot issue. Right now the increased tm[~, when I say right now, I mean under the
current plan of thc city. The increased traffic will be focused on the Nez ~ sire. Lucy part as it goes into
Vineland Court and then that will carry through to where Ncz Pefco and Pleasant View will meet so we've got
one corridor, two spots of which the traffic will be increased. The first option that I've given you, and Sharmin
could you please it on your overhead. This would continue somewhat with the city's current plan. There's a
little mod_ification. Again, that may be more of my artistry than anything else. But we would also have a third
entrance into these three developments. The three developments being Vineland, Troendle and tho Owens
development. And that third entrance, or exit, is down at the outlet. Now the advantages of this ove~ the current
plan are a couple. First of all, instead of focusing the traffic on just two points of ingress and egress, there
would be a third point at which the traffic would be dispersed to. The second advantage is that the majority of
people on I. ake Lucy really won't see an increase in traffic. The people on Vineland, coming off of CR 17 will
still go east on Lake Lucy to get into Vineland. But anyone that's going into the Owens development, and
possibly somc going into Troendle, who may be coming up from the south on CR 17 and now that we've got
Festival and Target, we're going to have a lot more U'aftJc coming up f~m that direction. Those people would
just come in the short distance on Lake Lucy and then go up into their development so again the majority of
Lake Lucy will not see an increase in traflSc. A third advantage, and I apologize because this is not technically
done but looking at the different maps that are being presented at the Planning Commission and here and there,
if I'm counting right, if I'm figuring correctly, this will give the Owens development as many and possibly one
or two more lots than are currently in the plats that the Council or the Planning Commission approved last week.
So I don't see this as being a detriment to that development. A fourth advantage of this alternative~ and I think
this is one of the most important is that this is a compromise. As I said before, we've got a lot of people upset
and one group of people of happy. With this no one is going to be complet~,ly in love with it, if you will. You
know a lot of people aren't getting exactly what they want and everyone's giving up a little bit mom than they
are giving up now. And so I see that everyone is affected but also everyone also benefits and I think what we
have here is a more equitable distribution of the traffic that would affect all of these neighborhoods concern with
this extension. Now there are also some disadvantages. The fin'st, there's been discussion about the grade at the
outlet. I mlired with Mr. Hempel. Unfortunately he's not hero but he told me that he's looked at it and that it
can be done. I mean the grade is not something that would prevent this from going through the outlet. The
second disadvantage, and I think this is the msjor disadvantage of the two is that if the outlet is used as a road,
yon'ye Sot the two houses on eith~ ~ who now have a mad soins ~ ~ ~ ~ ~t's hard for me to
response to ltml. I sympnthize with those people. I'm not sure if thcy hnve chHdrcm Let'snssumetheydo. A
snxnetime, thntisnnoutlot. Itwnsthe~whcnthehouseswerebuilC Maybe they didn~ 'tbelieve~tarondwas
going to go through there I~ whil~ I ~ ~ tho~~ I also ~/mI~fl~- with tl~ peopl~ thut am
on the corner of Ne~ Pea'ce nnd I..nim Lucy ~t ~ ~ll ~. I sym~flfiz~ with the peol~ up on Pencefnl
l.~ne, w~ R's going to go llumlgh. And th~ olt~ peo~ on ~ Lqn~ Ired Ne~ Pe~ who hnve RII
voiced their concern nbout thit $o I think there's a lot of symp~y Rmt cnn be given to a lot of peop~ nnd~
nnyscennrio. Asf~rastheoutlotng~n~e's~~~~a~~ $ome things mm
mst_ Thinl~ cnn be done to slow the trnt~ down nnd Ithtnk ~ in the n_~gh~ ~ ~ ~ ~
of t~qt The second option i~ the, what I cnll th~ ttn~e cul-d~-snc optio~ Tttis in my m~d is th~ most d~mble
becnuse it ca~tt~ cul-de-~ I ltlm cttl-de-sn~. They're ~. And in tnlktng with ~mnn Wlng nnd
~ Senn I had the distinct imlge~on thst runny people on li~ Conncil favon~ cal-41e-sa~ I think also
on Pleasant View, the families mNezPerc~. In mtdifion it would benefit the people m Lak~ Lu~. .a,?tn; the
houses he. fore it goes into the Oweas ~ Any traffic that's going funh~ is going to be truffle going to
Vine. land, which would be traffic ~ would go thut way in any event. A third advanta~ is thut you'r~ looking
ut _this, and u~in from my un~ ~ I think th~ mor~ lnntl litlld ~ ~ b~ ~.~xl thnn wilh 0S[i~
nnything thnt'S ~ ~ SO far. As far as ~ disildvall~, n~nin w~'v~ got th~ ~ ~ I doll't thtn~
that's an issu~ W~'v~ got the people w~ hav~ go~ fl~ir hom~ next to th~ ouflo~ I think th~ this is a bet~
longer a connection b~weea Nez Peav~ and Pleaumnt Vi~'w. And lt~ reason I'm not sure ff it's an advantage ~r
On the one lured I hear thst we want a connec~ with ~ ~ ~e ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I
hear that we don't want anym~ truffle m Pleasant V't~w ami N~z ~ and w~ don't want a ~ thst's
than I think this is a sol~. ff we want a connect, no one's been abl~ to I~ m~ why we want a _connect.
'I'ne Plunning ~ last wee~ I under~l ~ut the~'s going to b~ discus, si~n freight about an
Environmeatal Assessment f~ tl~ d~-v~lopmeat on ti~ Owens parcel I also m~le~and _emt ltag~'s a law~t
the extemsion or th~ fins1 planning of ~ Owens rmtil those things axe co~clnded. So if tl~ C. amn~ would just
th~ ~ right now becam~ a delay is already upon us. And ff It~ staff ~ back and says, the~ things can
Illdmo~ thst ~ this who!e issue, I don't think w~'r~ ~ going to g~t ~ to agree on tree plan
but I'm willing to do what I can to try and geta lot of people to agree from the various nfqgflx~hoods and all I
n~k~ yon the Comical is tlmt yon giv~ f~r ~ to whnt Ithtnk n~ vlnl~ oPtl~n~ to the cm~nt
ptan. If nnyone hns nny ques~, I'd be hnppy to answer them. A~n; I'm not nn' engineer. I'mnota
pl_nn,er. This is a concept and I hope you nccept it ns such. I think the stnff can w~k with it nnd poshly
' .uqm~ upon it And if ~ere ar~ no que~s, I'd li~ to thnnk sll of yon for your time.
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Is there any questions by Council? Thank you once again.
2C. COURT MACFARLANE, COLONIAL GROVE BEACHLOT.
Court MacFarlane: Good evening Mayor, City Council. My name is Court MacFarlane and I live at 3800
Legee Curve which isn't anywhere near Lotus lake. My lot is pan of the Pleasant Acres Beachlot Association
and I was a member of the Lake Study Commit~ that dmfltxi the first benchlot ordinance. That's going on 12
to 14 years ago. And I was here al your last scheduled meeting on August 9th. I didn't have this kind of
information at that time so I couldn't react to what was in it very well at that time. But I think Mr. Whitelttll
was so successful to confuse the issue, how many boats were or should be allowed on Colonial C~rove Beachlot,
to the point that you had no choice but to give in to their request. There was so much con_fi_~s_io_n as to tho
content and intent of what went on then. Why wasn't anyone associated with the Lak~ Study Committee
contacted for their input as a means of clarifying what was going on at the time? I kept hearing attacks on th~
validity of the city's inventory of the then exis~g beaclflots. That inventory was ordered by the City Council at
a regular Council meeting on August of 1980. Therefore doesn't that then become part of the official city record
and therefore part of the official city business. I saw the inventories at the time and being the liberal that I am,
when it comes to the use of beachiots in our city, I would have certainly said something if I had seen any kind
of discrepancy in the inventory from what I had pemonally seen on the benchlots. As a committee we toured all
of the lakes in the city in a group and viewed firsthand all of the benchlots. It was also noted that these
inventories were unsigned. I talked with Bob Weibel today. He was the city staff person assigned to work with
the lake study committee and later the wetland or environmental protection committee during that period of time.
It was his comment that in his experience it is not normal city practice for a staff person to sign off on reports or
minutes. Not when they are part of official city business. Another point I'd like to w~ is timt the lake study
committee did not do it's work in a vacuum and that's probably my most important point. All beac~ts we~
informed of our delibexations and recommendations. Not only of that but the lake study committee
recommendations for outlets wer~ required by City Council action also on August of 1980 to be included in the
restrictive covenants and/or development contract for Colonial Grove because their restrictive covenants wer~
silent on overnight storage of boats, ff you would just follow me through a few points on the conditional use
permit for Colonial Grove. In paragraph 1.03 it says because ~lishments from said recreatio~ areas
predates the adoption of the Chanhassen Zoning Ordinance, said recreational area constitutes a non-confozming
use. The expansion of which is prohibited, And then it goes on in paragraph 1.06. The purpose of this permit
is to memorlaliT~, both those recreational uses which may be conducted by the applicant from Outlet A, and
those activities which would constitute an expansion of the use of said Outlet A. And then it goes on to talk
about swimming and buildings, mooring buoys, alrplanes...Some are allowed. Some are not allowed. It was
silent on dockage of boats. Overnight dockage of boats. It has always been my understanding that if a
particular use is not spelled out in a conditional uso pemfit, then that uso is a non-peanfittod uso. The~ may
have been several boats fled up to their dock when inventoried but I believe none were permitt~ by the permit.
The question of why the dock is identified in the permit as 100 foot dock can be explained in two ways. If you
notice it's also written in there by hand. That dock at times of high water had to cross emergent aquatic
vegetation to get to open water. Also conversely the dock in times of low water had to extend further into the
lake to reach water to a depth of 4 feet which is permi~ by the ordinance. Both reasons can explain why the
number was hand written on the permit. Sometimes it's longer. Sometimes it's shorter. I think the person who
went out, when they drew up that initially, no one knew how long exactly. They had to write it in later. A
couple of other concerns I have of what occ~ 2 weeks ago has to do with the documentation provided by Mr.
Whitehill. One is the reference to 9 boats being permitted at their dock. As I read it, this came from their
r
City Council Meeting - August 2.3, 1993
Associs_' ti~n Minn~tes and not from any city icc, olds. I'm sure if you we~t back and looked at the Pleasant Acres
Homeowners Association ]vfinutes you'd see ~ to a lot mcsc than 8 boats which were _pcrm~ today
by conditional use. Because over the years we added boats because no cae was watching out fro' how many
1981. The second concern hn~ IX) do with their...~id~vits. I think t]~ sdTidm~its tlmt are ldeatt(~ to ~[te anottler
somcono clso who could easily stccr ~ to their own. In Mr. W'nitehffi's own words to the Pt~nntnE
should bc on thc xcquesting...and why should the C~ have to defend it's official records. No one ci~
guess what I'm asking from you is that, ! think you shoukl l~t the m _sth~'_ in fa~ and to r~ your
Councilman Wing: I ip~e~s I'm 8oin~ to, I _con_~!~xl this a dead issue until tmtl~ but af~ the meettn~ I did
receive a phone call from a Colo~s! Grove resident who had sUmxl he ~ signed an _sfTidmdt impmpl~l~.
Under dure~ and it wasn't ~ And based on that ~stlrm, whi~ I hav~ ~i_~t and I clmse ~ot to
eml2nass Colonial Grove wiih 2 weeks a8o, I'm I~ing to second Mr. lVIason's motion if he chooses to
reamsider Ibis. Because I _think wl~ h .nl~plmed to you was fair and what happened to Pleasant Am~ was
accurate. What happened to this ~ was inaccun~ and _nnf~r ~ I'm ~ to ~ m ~ to ~
your's if this one should fail.
lVIayor Chmicl: Any other discussion?
Mayor Chmiel: On exactly what's beea said,
Councilman ~mn: You mean on a motion or?
Maycr Chnflel: Well, Richard is saying basically ~ if lVflchsel will bring back his mofim, ~ will bring
back lile other motion and whal's fair to one is fair to all And what I'm en~rmini~ is tilere any ~
discussion ~ ~ may bca second to this~
Coulicilmnn Senn: Well that's what I'm mi~dn_o because he was l~X~din~ a motion I ~ herod.
Counc~nan W'mg: No, no.
Mayor Chmiel: No. No. He just stated.
Councilman Wins: I'm just saying ~nt ff the~'s an effort to rcamsider this under Council Prcscntalicms, I'm
going to support tba~ based ou this I~nony or ~he ~estimouy I'v~ ~sd. I hav~ loose ~ ~ and I hav~
numerous comments out of the 1Wmut~ that I want tl~ staff and City Atmn~ to addre~. I want to know what
these ~ wc~ we had with them. It has no~in~ to do wilh iL I want to know how msny boals weto
there in '81 and I want us to stick on that lin~ I want tm to make a detecto of that and if it means
rec~_ "inS it, then so be it. Or there's 13 others that should be recalled and bron~t .back because we're not being
consistent. This was not a diffcrent group. I'm going to ask that dircctly of staff, lf_ths_t_'sthecaso, thenthisis
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
a different issue.
Mayor Chmiel: Are you looking for information to be gathered pet your request prior to bringing this up for
reconsideration?
Councilman Senn: I'm hearing there's more information. It'd be nice if that were shared for I guess one thing.
Secondly, I mean ff we're going to tsllr about reco~tion, then I think we have to look at it in the broadest
sense of the word and treat everyone the same and maybe bring them all for reconsidera~n.
Councilman Wing: I don't think that's true.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: I don't think that's, yeah. When I made my decision at the last Council meeting I
found out afterwards additional information that I wish I had known beforehand so I would hope that if we do
reconsider it, and I would support a motion to do that, that those people who do have additional informal/on
would come forward and share it.
Mayor Chmiel: And if reconsid__v~ation is considered, those voting in the positive for that particular motion eau
bring this back on the floor.
Councilman Mason: And it's my understanding because I was in absence, I can make that motion to reconsider,
which I will be doing under Council Presentation.
Councilman Wing: Before we leave Visitor Presentations, I'd just like to make another comment other than this.
The people from Ncz Perce are here and David Donna has made a presentation and suddenly it was just silence.
What's the Council's pleastn*c? What's our intent with this7 Where are we going with his request or his
suggestions? I think there was this dead silence and maybe they're waiting for the Council to say, obi Or let's
or let's not.
Mayor Chmiel: Well basically what we've done right now is ~ this is under Visitor Presenm~n. That's a
little different from thc first one, being thc school and what the school district and they wanted to get somebody
on board as quickly as they can. And that was no real major decision making or changing one thing one way or
the other. And normally we do mice it into reco~n the following meeting. But in this particular case,
this is something that would have to be btou~t back up for further discussion by Council and then
reconsideration given if it's the desired point.
Councilman Wing: Okay. So 2(b) would go on the next agenda?
Mayor Chmiel: :2('0) would go on the next agenda.
Councilman Wing: AlrJght. And the neighborhood would be notified.
Mayor Chmiel: All those affected would be notified.
Councilman Wing: Okay, thank you.
Mayor Chmiel: And I'm not sure that, I don't know how this is going to work out but I'm not sure that David
Donna would be the mediator between all the neighborhoods and Mr. Beddor. That's the only thing I have.
DoaA~wa~th: Iwouldliketo~e~t~ffpmpm~awzitmamepmmetothem~e~km. Wewoaldl~tthm
into the, a~xt ~ but I would li~ to know ~ lt~ Coan~ fave~ ane way ar anotlmr befa~ we notify the
enlim neJghbcrh~ tha~ wo'ro going to bo zecon~d~ting ar nat recon~iaring. ,So in other wards, I'd liim I~
sumci~t infarmmion he~ to consid~ reccmid~alic~.
MayarChmieJ: l~xnthatrelx~Ithinkiswherowehavotol~ofzom. You'rerlght. Anyother~ ff
not, we'll move along wi~ the agenda.
(~ON~IT AGI~1DA:
MaymChmiel: I lmve a request to pull item 3(¢) at this lime. Aretlmmsnyottmril~ms~~~m~
Cotm~~ ~: F m~cl G.
Conndlmnn Seam B, D, E nnd I-L
Councilman W'mg: Well and I want to talk about A, _n_nd based on thi,, I'd iflm to move that the Consent
Asemla be moved in tl~ agenda to the finn~ item thi~ evening. I don't think it's right if we're going to pull
Mayor Chmiel: W~ I ~ of ~ ~ ~ Nmmsny the consam agev~, ~m givea far as to review and any
qaesfians thst we have can nornmny be answa~ by staff dining the time period of from whm we get our
agendas and move accordingly. And I think it's thnt indivjdnnl's rcspon_ m'htlity, whether it be mine ~ anyme
thnt Ot~ n~ ~
Councilm~ Senn: Well Don yuu know, in respon~ to that I'm going to say the ~m~ thing I said last meeling.
When ~ i~et pnckets on Friday night and all you have is ~, ttmt's not fair to the Council. You don't
even know what's on the agenda. You don't have any back-up infimnnflon and there's no way you cnn get
you're doing be~n l~lay m~ning ami l~oday vi_.ht.
Maym Chmiel: I don't di~m~e but whea the capying macJfino mmeflm~ ~ down, they tgeak down.
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Councilman Senn: Well that's fine.. I got it over the weekend so I mean it's worst yet so.
Mayor Chmiel: And once in a while I think it just takes a little extended effort upon each of us to accomplish
that as well
Councilman Senn: Effort was made.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: While I agree with you Mr. Mayor, the ones that I pulled I believe really are
discussionary items. I was uncomfortable with them being on the Consent Agenda.
Councilman Wing: I think that's an issue.
Councilman Senn: Ditto.
Councilman Wing: Well I've got a motion to move it. I don't care whea'e we move it to. I just don't want to
hold the audience up.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Colleen, you pulled item f and g?
Councilman Wing: I pulled a.
Mayor Chmiel: A? Item I or 2 or both of those Richard.
Councilman Wing: I just had a question of Planning.
Councilman Senn: The only ones that haven't been pulled ar~ i and j right~
Mayor Chmiel: i and j. I would like a motion to approve items i and j of the consent agenda.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'd be happy to.
Councilman Wing: Second.
Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Councilman Wil~ seconded to approve the following Consent Affenda
Rems pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
i. City Council Minutes dated August 9, 1993
Planning Commission Minutes dated August 4, 1993
j. Revision of Conditions of Approval for Lot 2, Block 1, Washta Bay Court, Ken Lurid
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
A. TRO'I'FERS RIDGE~ FINAL PLAT APPROVAL AND APPROVE CONSTRUCTION PLANS
AND SPEClltlCATIONS AND DEVELOPMENT CONTRACT~ PRO~[ECT NO. 9'3-18v
Councilman Wing: I forgot to aak you today. On Trotters Ridge, Nancy Mancino ~ll_e~cl and I called
engineering. I thought that on collector streets we had setbacks, bermings, etc, etc to separate neighborhoods
l0
City C. mmcil Meeting - Angust 23, 1993
from the mads nnd on Trottcrs the house seems to mc to be right on the rond. Nobcrming. No landscaping.
Wns thnt resolved7 Did Nnncy's question, was thnt ~? Because she was going to c~ntnct me with a
re~o_!uflon ~o tha~.
Councilman W'mg: But the house is about ~0 feet from the road and it's built. Something's wrong. I mcan it
just doesn't look right.
Co~_n~lmn~t ~r'll~: ~0. I think.
Cotmcilwoman Dockendorf: There's nothing new built
Conncilmnn W'm8: Nothing nt this point7
Councilman W'm8: Exc~ me. Disregard my com~. I ~ it nnswcred.
(a) can be moved at any time.
Councilnmn Wing: Yes sir. Move (n).
CouncDnmn Mason: Second.
Conncilmnn Wing moved, Conncilman Mason seconded to approve Final Pint and the ~ Plmm
and Speciflen~ nnd Development Contract, Project No. 93-18 for Trotters Ridge. All voted in ravin'
nnd the motion carried
B. CALL ASSESSMENT HEARINGS:
1) ~ BLUFF CItR~K TRUNK UT~.FFY IMPROVEMI~ITS, PHASE I, PRO,]EC'~ NO. 91-
17A.
2_)_ Ln.&C LANE IMPRO~ PROJEL~ NO. 91-4.
3) LONE C_IA~_ AR LANE IMPRO~ PROJEC~ NO.
Councilman Senn: On Co), there wns no prelimin~ assessment rolls nttnched with it. 'I'ney nfisht be av~nble
for tonight. I-Invcn't seen thcsn you know besicnily ns of yet. I'd rcnlly ~ to see that prel_ iminnry roll which
before we would take an action on setting the hearin8 dates. To see if there's any discussion on it.
Charles Folch: The nclton tonight is technically a fopnnlity. We hnvc to go, w~ hnvc to follow Stnto guidelines
for nny type of nssessable project. Unfortunately there's a certain amount of lead time. ~o~|~ntol_ y 3 weeks
between c-q, iqg n henring nnd nctnnlly having the hem'ins. And we can cerp~_ _ iy get fl~is informn_ ti~n to yon
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
earlier than the next Council, ff you so desire...~ is still a formality where we call the hearings and we get tho
inftmuation at a later date. We have to kind of get that lead time in order to be able to schedule these things
this fall. So that's where, we're racking up projects this summer also. $o we can certainly get the information
to you earlier and distribute it earlier than the next Council meeting.
Mayor Chmiei: Yeah. That Lone Cedar Lane Improvement Project 90-9. Was that a '94 or '95 project7
Charles Folch: That was completed actually earlier this spring.
Mayar Chmiei: But that was to go for '94 for the assessment, is that correct?
Charles Folch: No. That was a planned assessment...
Mayor Chrnlei: Okay, in '93. Okay.
Councilman Senn: Alrighty, so moved.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second.
Resolution 893-71: Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to call the following
Assessment Hearings: Upper Bluff Creek Trunk Utility Improvements, Phase I, Project No. 91-17A; Lilac
Lane Improvement Project No. 91-4; and Lone Cedar Lane Improvement Project No. 90-9. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
C. CONSm~.R W, RL~NC~. TO CONSTRUCTION WORK HOURS FOR OAK PONDS, PROJECT NO.
Charles Folch: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. This item basically we've handled a number of these
recently here. The developer did distribute a notice...the neighboring properties...no~g them that this issue
was coming up before you. We did receive a number of calls today from residents of Saddlebrook and I feel it's
important to ~ a clarification on this issue. The developer has reques~ working hour extimsion for
Saturdays only. He'd like to work 7:00 in the morning until 6:00-7:00 at night. The ordinance right now only
allows them to work from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00. Staff feels comfortable, given the closeness of proximity tn the
neighborhood, not allowing 7:00 ann. but maybe allowing them to start at 8:00 a.m... The clarification that we
need to make and it's a policy that we enforced on ~i~iisr requests such as this in thc past is that..condifional in
nature. That is if we were to receive complaints from residents in the area during this work extension, and these
problems and complaints cannot be mitigated properly by the developer or adjusted accordingly, that this work
extension can be revoked basically and that's what we've done in the past. If problems can't be mitigate~ we
carminly will bring the issue back to you for revocation. And that's what we needed to clm'lfy. It is conditional.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Is there any questions7
Councilwoman Doekendc~: 8o they're willing to go from 8:00 to 6:007
Charles Foklc That's what the...
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay, because 7:00 1 think is unreason~le.
12
Councilwom,~ Dockeudod: Andlreally, Idon'twantto~eeit. ffthereareproblemswithi~Id~n'twantm '
see it come l~k to Council. That' s just a delay. Imean~~~~
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, I'd li~ to see it just saipped right at the time and stuff have that an_th~__ ration lo do that.
So with thnt I'd move item (c).
Mayor Chmlel moved, Councilman Wing seconded to approve a variance to the eonstrnel~n work hours
nn. Oaa Ponds, ~oJeet No. 93-9 on Satm'days to 8:00 a.m. to 6:0O p.m. An voted h hvor and the mollm
De
APPROVE PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS FOR ~ BLUFF CRiilli~ TRUNK UTILITY
IMPRO~S (PHASE ID~ AUTHORIZI~ ADVERTISING I~OR BIDS, l'R~ NO. 91-
1711.
Councilman Senn: Charles what's the, for the Upper Bluff Creek Trnnk Utility, what is the funding formula on
that or who's paying for what~
Charles Folclc 100% assessment.
Councilman Senn: 100~~7 Allt~
Charles Folch-' 'I'ne benefitting propenie~ Basically on the location map, nH the abuUing 1~ to this
project which nre basically run nlong Galpin Boulevard. Prom the east side of Galpin, north of Stone Creek s_nd
basicaUy going from that point north to...TmUn's Ridge Addition...
Charles Folch: There is a futu~, act~_ rally _this_ one was scaled bnck. This Ptmse II was ac~s___lly...~t
comprehensively. At that time it was thought ~nt this project wonld go from the suming point and ncmn_ lly
lle. Xt yell" ns they COllie oil ~ hilt thc _timinE of ~ d~vilo~ But we have enough ~ ~ nre
Councilman Senn: Okay. So w~ don't go to those other projects in tl~ fulnro _and assess back for part of ~
trunk leading to them7
tnmk piI~ don't pay a smaller cost ~ tho peop~ who are downstream thst_ have the biggur pipe going tluuugh
the ~ pay a bigger cost. That's not a fair way of doing it so about 2 years ago the City Council ~
the unif~tn charge per m,nk trait, sewer and walet which is $970.00 f~ sewer and $1,275.00 for wain'main.
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
And that's what's being ~ on a per unit residential...basis to the properties which are defined in the
service area for each segment of these improvement projects. So everybody's paying their fair share and
oniformed.
Councilman Senn: Alright, move approval.
lVlayor Chmiel: Is there a second?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Second.
Resolution #93-72: Councilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve the phms
and specifications for Upper Bluff Creek Trunk Utility Improvement (lqume II); and authorize advertising
for bids, Project No. 91-17B. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
E. CHANGE ORDER NO. 1, LAKE ANN IRRIGATION PROJECT.
Councilman Senn: I think the last time this came up I was the one who asked that we wait and I think wha$,
Todd wasn't here to answer the questions or whatever at the time. I see some of the questions were addressed
in the memorandum. I think it said the origin~{ estimate was $60,000.00 and the bid was $50,000.00 so we're
still under what the original estimate was. Todd, the only other question I had basically that you haven't
answered here is, and this is a 10% or greater increase in the overall budget of tho project. That's ~etty
significant in terms of an incr~tse. I don't think the issues really, that there was a $60,000.00 estimate up front
and $50,000.00 bid. I mean we have a $50,000.00 bid. Missing 10% is pretty significant.
Todd Hoffman: Councilman Senn, to address that I would agree with you. It's not an issue ~_hot_ we had money
to spend because we had budgeted $60,000.00. The budget was $60,000.00. The original bid was about
$45,000.00. Now with the change order, we're up to just over $00,000.00. The project was bid on a very tight
time line. We were trying to get in the ground last rs_Il so there were a couple of things which were missed. As
you can see from the breakout of the expenditures there, there's a variety of...in¢luded. I think it is about
$1,600.00 in improvements which were mandated by our Inspection Department. The addition, almost $2,000.00
in addition to the irrigation...
with Field 2, it was changed from an adult softball to Little League field... What this does is put an irrigation
zone out into tho outfield behind the backstop in the event that in the future when other fields become awilAhle,
that we change that back to an adult field, we're ready to go and we don't have to go in and do a subsequent
contract at that time to include irrigation. So I undem'stand that it's in excess of 10%. I don't think thai it's out
of the question to consider...
Councilman Senn: The $3,400.00 is really a redesign issne. I mean what made us think in the first place that we
had room to put it in the building and then find out later that we don't have room to put it in the corner~
Todd Hoffman: You're correct, it is a redesign issue. It's an issue which I've discussed with the Legion and
the Athletic Association. When this was approved, the building was not being used. It sat vacant for 3 years. It
was not being utilized. No orgaviTo~on in the city was providing concessions out of there. Now this year the
Athletic Association has come in and is providing that service. Some communication with the CAA and the
Legion, it was felt that ff we mlce up a third of that space, t_hot's going to hinder operations within that building.
The other fl0.ng that came to my attention is if they need an overflow. The water should overflow...interior of
the building with concession items and that type of thing stored in there and you have an overflow simation...I
would agree with you. It is a design issue. At the time I was comfortable that it could go inside the building
City Council blee~g - August 23, 1993
but _beo~___n_~ of the reasons slat~ in my m~monmdnm, I'm no longer ~ with thnt silnation.
Todd Hoffmnn_' ~xrect.
Mayor ChmieJ: Any other questiona~
Counct_ lmnn Senn: No.
Councilman Seam I move aplxovaL
Resolution #93-73: Cmmchnan Senn moved, Cou~llma~ Mason seconded to approve Change Order No.
1, Lake Ann Park Irrigation ProjKt. All voted in favur ri_nd the motion carried unanlmmM~.
Fe
CONSIDER APPROVAL TO ENTER INTO A 3 YEAR CONTRA~T FOR ANIMAL CONTROL
SERVICKS WITH THR CITIES OF VICTORL~ GlaKl~OOD~ TONKA BAY~ EXCEI~OR
AND SHOREWOOD.
ConncilwomaaI~_. _tna~'f__: Ah, letmesee. I aldn't get a chaxr~ to mlk to you today Scott about tht* issue.
I've lalked with the City
g~ and I know that ~ ~ is, it ~ IO it. -What yon're ~in~ fur hc~ is ti~ w~ ~ ~m ~ 30
hours aweek for a CSO to do snlmnl control so we can hixo itont to dHTetent cities in the nrea. My qneslion to
you is, how nt~ we, and it's not ri?in directly teJated to this issu~ bm how nfo we ~ on ~ staff~
adding a detective to staff. Is that tree?
Scott Ham. Wetl, the City MnnnL~r and I an~ me~_'ng with the Sheriff to discuss the ~_'biltty of buying
additional time from the County. Be it fur patrol time or be it investigative lime or sc~e mutnnl ngn~l upon
altenuttive to keep up with tte law eafotcemem neecl~ Intcrnnny our biggest needs are AnimAl contxol suplx~t
It's one of the things I'H be ~ in the budget, n~h and Carol ut~ in excess of 200 phone cans a day.
time, com~l~n~ ~ ]:)eo~le make about nnlmnl COattO] ~ or code ~con?i~int~ ~ ~n_t ~ US ba~ tO ~
reason that I'm recemmen~ t~___t if the city...setvice with 5 other cities, I wottld li~ to have the ~ to
r~xlomm~ ___n~H_'fional ~ People, our CSO program and the nnimsl coiltrol program is moving alon~ as
Council~~: My teal q~ is, isthi*8oingtodoiO Shouldwelooknttishtnowhitinga
full time animal control ~llnf/ la _tlmt_ what you really need? In additian ~o the sectetathl ~
15
City Council ~g - August 23, 1993
Scott Ham. Well it's difficult when I know that this city is reluctant to increase budgets. And I promised my
staff that I'd do every~ng that I could to get the additional secrelm'lal support position and CSO pc~ition and ff
to do that I need to compromise on what would be the ideal, that..~mmending the 30 hours per week. As I
said in my memo, I think the full time position has a lot of merit to it. Anyone involved in public safety will
tell you that one of the most frequent col__ls involves animal control
Councilwoman Dockendorf: And we are making a profit out of it. I mean it's marginal but we do make money
on that, leasing it out to other cities.
Scott I-Iarr: Yeah, and I think that the primary benefit to a full time nniroal control office would be that we
would be able to support the program internally even beyond what it is now. We have nobody on our staff thRt
their thing is animal control. We have Bob Zydowsky who plays a number of roles and we have community
service office~s who go frankly, when they leave here to become a police officer, not an ~trual control officer
and we're seeing the results of animal problems both from the complainant sides and the pet owner's side. I
think a lot of benefit could be received by everybody if it was a specialist position.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: So if we approved the additional 30 hours for a CSO, could we also look forward
to you presenting in your '94 budget a full time animal control specigliRt?
Scott Harr: No, I'm really looking for one or the other.
Mayor Cluniel: I think that what we've been doing in the past has been woridug very well and having another
CSO on h~d would help considerably. The bottom line that I still see is, I don't want this to cost the citizens
of Chanhassen more dollars than what we're providing services for other communities. I guess my concern is
that as long as we are still making money on thi~, and what we are doing was we we~ providing additional
hours even for ourselves. Now all of a sudden this whole thing is starting to start turning and finding that
everybody is being s~ and not being able to make all those specific calls because of all the complaints and
I know that all communities are growing, as well as our own. But I guess the bottom line is, if we are still
coming up with those dollars in hand, and it's not costing the residents of the city of Ch~hassen any dollars, I
still think it's a good program.
Don Ashworth: In submitting this we are looking for a continuation of the contract with the other communities.
I continue to believe that it is a good deal for our city. I'm sure that we will show you that as we start the
budgetary process. Our first meeting in September is setting budget work session _do___Los. Thom will be for
October and November. The two options that Scott is referring to will be a part of those budgetary hearings and
again what we're looking for this evening is approval for continuing the contract with the other cities.
Councilman Senn: You know, turn it around and...take a little mom of a global view of this thing. It seems to
me, you know you go ahead and talk about a 30 hour add or whatever and then you say, well what happens,
that's a new 30 hours. Now what happens to the old ones. It just seems to me that that's not really approaching
the issue very straight forward. I looked at the issue and it seems to me that we really ought to just go hire a
full time person and we ought to have their benefits and their vehicle and everything. We ought to take all those
costs and we ought to add them together and that's tho cost we ought to charge back to tho 5 or 6 other cities
_th~_t were paying. It's still going to be a bargain. They can't find it any cheaper anywhere else. Now they say
why aren't we paying something even though we're u_flli~.ing maybe half of that person for animal control Tho
answer's real simple. We have a lot of costs that go into thai contract that aren't figured to that person such as
Scott's time, other administrative time, other support services and everything else. So here we have a, it seems
to me a fairly clear situation where we could take this one full time person, all the costs associated with him,
16
City Cotmcil bteel~g - August 23, 1993
MaycrChmiel: Yeah, Idm'tdisngree. Yeah, I don't ~ with th~ T'ne only problem i~, is that ff we $o
into a 3 year contract, and we hiro thi~ peaamo and w~ provide the~ with tl~ cos~ to each of those n:~lzctivo
cities, and they don't want to go along with it, well thnt's the time that we ~ni? the nmbtUcal cord. Bnt I Itdnk
Councilman Senn: I menn could we ccntnct the cities upfxont, or first e~Rflish what the new rat~ would be nnd
then contact the cities ~t and ask thetn ff they'xe still going to ~ ot not. And then ff th~ say yes,
in the other costs that Cbanbassen are paying thut's not being included in the cost brick to them directly
to, I mean they really onght I0 know ~t their employment is tied to tltut camtract. And so it's not sore _eddn
Councilwoman Doc. lr,~lo~: RighL and thnt'S the beaef~ thnt we get. Any left over time.
Scott Ham Not just do unimul control issues but nss~t in.most i~t but mo~t time consmning is we're
delivering 50 to 100 packe~ a week..~ nt nccldent scenes, flat 8ort of th~.
CouncflmanSenn: I may be incotmct but l thought once we get over 30 homs, that'sfuntimo. At lenst it is in
Councilman W'mg: Well but assnming we stay at 30 hours then.
Coum:ilmnn Senn: Well I mean if there's a mn~e madt there, I don't.
Maycr Chmiel: Maybe we cnn get an nnswer.
Don A~hm Penonnel policy generally speaks to 32 hours. If you're over 32 homx, benefits nre provided.
You can ncmnlly go less thun that as it deals wJlh vacation, 8J~k leave hilt 8enemny 32 houri ii coniicim~d full
Scott Ham And my only concern there is ff we weae looking for a spec3nlt~, i~ might be more d~m_~tlt
Councihann W'mg to look for 30 horns with no benefits. That's a goat position for a part time CSO who's a
law enforcement stndent who needs to devote thne to studying bnt I think we might have ~ ff we were
17
City Council Meeting - August ~, 1993
Don Ashworth: We've spent a lot of time in previous years documenting that the price per hour we're charging
back to the other communities is more than our cost. We are reaping a benefit by the contract. Scott and ! have
talked. I know that he is looking to additional personnel but I think that that issue should ~ally bo a part of the
budgetary process, the budget work sessions. Again, as far as the contract is concerned, I can assure you, assure
tho City Council that the amount we're charging back to tho other cities is more than our cost.
Councilm~n Senn: But Don what I'm asking is for something greater than that. What I'm saying is let the other
cities pay the full cost of that person, and I don't think that's being unreasonable because again we are paying
the other costs not associated with that person and I'm not sure those are being cranked into the equation. When
you say that we're re.t-ins a profit, you're saying we're mat'inS a profit Msed on what we're paying t_ha~t person.
And half of this vehicle will, well to me it ought to be 100% of the vehic!e and it ought ua bo every hour we pay
him for. And then we throw in Scott's time and other administrative time and your time and everybody else's
time associate~ with animal control, etc.
Councilman Senn: I want to support Mark in that position. One of the comments in here, which is stressing the
system, Chanhassen or contrac_~_~sl cities? What's hoFpening here is there's a lot of crossover and there's a lot
of inefficiencies occurring. And I thinlr ~91'k's idea of hiring whatever we want to hire and then dedicating him
to the contract portion 100%, charge back 100%, whatever those hours arc. 10, 20, $0, 100 hours, ! don't care.
And then when all that's charged back, them ought to be a little profit in it for the city of Chanhassen. I want to
bo in the driver's seat on this issue and this isn't the Excelsior Fire Department those people are dealing with,
and I don't want to get into that type of mentality. We're providing a service. It will be a first class service
which is the efficiency of right now I think is in doubt because of this crossover. You can say that 90~ of the
time's hero. I can say well I sec him across the road 90% of the time. Argue back and forth. Could you even
provide accountability for their time because a crisis occurs hem. Another crisis occurs hero and then the
packets have to get delivered so I really like Mark's suggestion of charging one person out to that contract and
then maintaining our CSO program individually and independent except if there's a crisis or need for those
people to help. It seems the only efficient way to do it. And management fees are part of the program. If they
want to do it on their own, go do it and if it's efficient for them, then maybe we can contract back and they can
take our's over someday. But right now they've got a goldmine hem and it's more than I think they deserve.
Oh, bed statement. Let's retract that.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'd be happy to move on this only to say that we should extend our 3 year
contracts with these cities and once we get in, we can deal with how we're going to f. lfill that contract in the
budget session.
Mayor Chmiel: That's right and I don't disagree with that. I think that's Hght.
Councilman Wing: I'li second that.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconde~ Any other discussion?
Councilman Senn: Yes. Okay I don't want that in any way in effect to assume to renew it on the existing b~i,.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Right, it's not.
Councilman Senn: It's not an approval to renew it on thc existing basis. I want to understand that very clearly
because I'm not going to go for that.
18
City Council Meeting - Angnst 23, 199~
Court,Anon W'mg: Yeah, I want to look at the issue you 5ronEht up seriously before we approve it.
Councilwoman ~: But I don't want to not...
MaycrChmiel: Thnt's what I was just going ~o suggest. Tnhle it for 2 weeks and I don't thinir it's going to
mnke. nny difference. And come back with somethinE thnt we have a lilfle bett~r hnn_dle on ~nn what we're
MaycrChmiel: Moved and seconded. Wemblethntitcm.
voted in fhvoF and the motion cnFFied unantmousl3~.
Go
R~'q~qVE AND ACT UPON PETITION TO UNDERTP, lO~ AN I~WIRONMlOqTAL
ASSESSMENT WQRlCqH~I~ FOR ~ SCXTl~lSION QF N'RZ PI~R~ NORTH TQ
PLEASANT VIEW ROAD~
Councilwoman I~. I pulled thi~ one became, I know my reaction to it and I wanted to lmow what the
rest of thc Council felt about it becatme I haven't talln~l to any~ne about the issue. And I wanted to clarify for
the citizens of Ch~nlmssen exactly what we spent on _,hi~ issue because you know I've been accused of being
smug ca it, and I haven't been smug. I take this issue very seriously but I can ten you right now I'm pretty
livid about it, and sorry for members of the andience, the issue is n~o~in N~z Pefco 8]3d thB city is boin~ 8sklx] to
succintly ns how I've seen the process take plnc~ A complexly ~ Council ~ y~ln ago decided to
exumd this stone's throw of a road. It went through numerous _comm{~ plnnnin~, park and rec, etc. We
were ready to go ahead with it and finnH~e ever~_ {rig earlier tiffs year and ~ Council, which is ~ fi~tn
the one ttmt nppmv~ it in the first place, and the otimr comm{~don_ · which were different from the comm{~j_nns
thnt npproved it in the first place, agreed that we needed to 8o ttnxmgh it. The ~ng pm'ty didn't li~ our
decision. Didn't like the decision of the prior ~ Bron~ht it up for mconsideration. We spent nddiflmal
time, ~d{_fi_rmnl money, lookin8 st the issue again. We decided not to reconsider our decision. As of this point
we've spent litn~y tens of thousands of dollars in stuff time, in lawyers fees. Right now we're being nsin~d to
we're going to spend what's going to amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars on this stone's lhrow of a tonal
And I don't know what to do with it. We're being nsluxl to approv~ _th{, ~e of $43,000.00 in addition
to the t~ns of tho~,nuds dollnrs we've already spent and will be spending co legal fees and I want to ~ out
what everyone else ~ about it. I'm tick~ off.
May~rChnflel: Okay. T'nanks~. Maybe ff l could just st~p in on thi~ At no other time imv~ we really
gone through a process of going ttm~gh an BAW f~r completion of roads-through the city. and I don't know if
this is the time to do it or not. Maybe what we should do is go out f~ some additional ~ other thnn one
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
that we have gotten to make that request rather quick to see if we can get a better cost factor on that EAW. To
mo an I:IAW is not that hard to complete. I have done some EAW's and it's not the long tedious point or long
tedious time to do. if it was an ElS, well then $45,000.00 would be too less, or too little in dollars. But ! don't
think I've over seen a BAW go for as much as what ! see here. What I would suggest is that maybe the
information that was brought to us previously in discussion, from Dave Donna which staff is going to look at
within the next two weeks, maybe we can come back with some of those suggestions that he had made and
como up with a conclusion and then look at what we get within, well ! would say it would probably lake us a
month or so Don to pull some of that together.
~n Ashworth: I'd say so.
Mayor Chmiel: And at that time, I think we still have enough time to respond to the complaint that we've been
served action on and go from there. Mark.
Councilman Senn: Don, you know with your comments on the bids, I agree 100%. I think we really ought to
go out and get 5 or 6 bids. When you start ~lldug about a $41,000.00 contract instead of you know, just talking
to one party about it. I was the one person who basically opposed accepting the previous approval and said we
should relook at thc issue. However I have a real hard lime justifying public costs like this. If that's in fact
what the cost is. I mean if the cost here...for an EAW, I have a real hard time accepting staff's recommendation
that we proceed with that BAW. You know to mc we have litigation going on and that's real obvious and we
have some other items on that tonight. Whether we go alw. ad or don't go ahead with an EAW, that litigation is
still going to proceed and I guess I disagree with the assumption in s_m_ff's memorandum too that effectively the
BAW will render the litigation moot. I don't believe that at all I believe the litigation will continue whether it
be, regardless of what the EAW says. At least that's the impression when we get from where everything has
gone so far. It just seems to me that, you know and I think Colleen's comments are real true here in terms of
what building public cost and I think that building public cost is ridiculous and I think with what Mr. Donna
came in with earlier, and everything else, I still would like to, instead of sitting here and even consider
approving another $40,000.00 on top of what I'm sure is probably already $50,000.00 to $100,000.00 in legal
time on this issue, maybe we should really just again maybe look at sitting back and looking at avRtlAhle options
and just take a good look at the situation once again. And I don't know, that may lead to the same conclusion
but to me that's a more worthwhile process than going out and spending all this money that we're spending.
Mayor Chmiel: Well I think maybe, once staff does look at this, and I think we're a little prem~ to come up
with a decision on this. I think we need some of that additional tmckground as well and at the same time go out
and look at it and see what those costs might be. They could be half. They could be a third. They could be a
quarter. And what I understand is the supportive position that you're probably looking at with this litigation, and
I think can we talk about that part Roger?
Roger Knutson: Just one comment. You have 30 working days after the receipt of that petition to...to make a
decision whether to order an BAW or not. I believe this is your last meeting...
Mayor Chmiel: Of course we could call a special meeting.
Roger Knutson: Yes, you can call a special meeting. It's 30 working days. The petition was received on July
30th.
Don Ashworth: Can you ca'der the EAW without having selected a firm?
2O
City CotmcH Meeting - August 23, 1993
Roger Knuts~a: Oh nbsolutely. If yon just wnnt to order the plantation of nn EAW and do thnt;, nH yon have
to do is strike ~ ~ ~ of ~ ~1~
Councilman Senn: You me~ to order nn EAW now knowing the cost aha not knowing the c~c~e?
Roger Knut~on: You could do that. I'm not mlggesfing thnt...the rules my ytm ~ BO d~ys. If you don't wnnt
to go with ~n EAW ~r you do, you've got to maim flint decision wifl~in 30 days of receipt of the petition.
Coundlnum Senn: Well ff we're actunHy going to go bw, k and get stuff to look at whnt Mr. _Donnn suggested or
even in any way blink nn eye nt the issne n_onln; I mean is it fensible to get the npplicant who filed the petition
to ngree, I don't know to hold it off or to pwvide some type of mec_hani,m which doesn't put ns unde~ thnt type
of a tight timeline fight now ~o ncc
Roger Knutson: The roles don't ~ nnything for nny str,.h mechanism. I snppose thec~ally...~
who signed the petition withdrew their n__nme.
Cotmcilm~ Senn: Okay. 5o ~nt's the mec~_ _ -i*m that would have to hnppm.
May~'Chmie2: Letmen~ko~eolherquesfion. I don't know whnt the le?llty wonld be on it If we we~'e to
proceed with thi~ ]~tW, and it does gO tO ~ ~tn the ~ initinting th~ ~ n~onin~ th~ city ~ lip tho~
CO~ 88 a coBdilJ/~ wi~in?
Roger Knutson: It's po~ble. Not likely but posm'ble.
Mayor _C~miel: Su~.
believed thnt we could get this comple~l fix a nnmber far less _th~, what is hero, if 30 days from today comes
along and it's still $40,000.00, could they then cease tho process and just say, we no longer want to pum~ the
EAW process7
Roger Knutse~: There is no way of going bnck on the rnles.
21
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Don Ashworth: So once mey ha~ sam it. they must complete it.
Councilman Senn: Regardless of the cost7
Mayor Chmiel: Yes unfortunately.
Roger Knutson: We just went through a process where I'm just...involved in another city was interested in
where the cost of an EIS was going to bo over a million...
Councilman Mason: And what happens tonight ff we choose not to do an EAW?
Roger Knu~son: I've been informed by a representative of the applicant that he'll just amend his current lawsuit
and slap that on as well.
Councilman Senn: Let him just do that.
Roger Knutson: If the dechion is not to do the BAW, then we have to have detailed findings saying why
not...preparo those for you. Then you need a special Council meeting in the next two weeks to adop~ those.
Councilman Mason: I'm going to bo around the next two weeks.
Councilman Senn: Why don't we do that.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I'm not ready to move on it.
Mayor Chmiel: I think that would bo the way. Richard.
Councilman Wing: Well I just wanted to add another comment then just to be on the record with this. Tho
EAW to me was an excuse and an attempt and an opportunity to help clarify some issues and answers for some
of the newer homeowners that have moved in that weren't aware of the situation or claimed they haven't had a
chance to speak. But when I see the $43,000.00, then I look at this committee you and I have sat on for the l~t
year, the Highway $ Task Force and I realize we didn't staff that much to do in an entire city wide task force
study and we're talking about an BAW for a 100 foot stretch of road. Something's tm'ribly wrong and the
~n's made and whether people like it or not, this is a done deal. The road's in and done. It's platted that
way and I was hoping to answer whatever questions we could but you reach a point where you can't p0n~alizO the
rest of the city at ~ level so I think this idea or suggestion is probably a good one.
Roger Knutson: Just so you understand what's happening here. A lot of the information that's on all of the,
would bo useful in the lawsuit that has been brought s~siust us so although it won't bo dollar for dollar the
same, because of this lawsuit which I can't wave a magic wand and make go away. You'll have to hire
consultants, whether it's Banon-Aschman or someone else, to respond to the lawsuit and they will bo looking at
similar issues at a similar price I assume.
Councilman Wing: That's the other thing I wanted to mention and I failed to and Charles, if you could Just
clarify this. In my looking at this and ~lidug to engineering and Banon-Aschman and everybody involved.
Planning. I said what will we gain from the EAW. What will we learn that we didn't learn when Mr. Mason
and myself were on Council going through this issue and the public hearings before and the answers have been
nothing. They've semi been answered. We've been through the issues that the BAW will bring up so that also
22
City Council M~ng - Angust 2~,
fri~t~n mc off a little bit is will theze be new infmnnlion thnt would in fact support Plensnnt V'lew's ~ or
Lake Lucy's position thnt would have a _gi?ifi~nt ~ on om' ~ it nppea~ not. And if thnt's not the
MayorChmie~: Okay. We did have a ~ from our mmmey, ns he's tndicaU~ ls t~ any motion to
follow that direc~on?
Mayor Chmi~: I don't think so.
Councilman Senn: I'd ~ to move tlmt we, correct me ff I'm wring. I'd like to move d~t you prclmm Nindln~
of Fact to deny the.
Roger Knuts~: ...based on the fnct thnt t~'$ no ~ ~.onifi_c~nt mvh'ollmgilllll ~ that Wl~ ~ CallS~
by this pm~_,e~_, nmi I'H detnil thnt based upon the d~:nssion~ Your l~ords nmi you'll hav~ to have a ~
meeting won't veO
~Senn: Iwouldliimto, fflcouldjustapointofclnrif~tfio~ ImennintmnsofthePindingsof
Fact, I mean can a Findings of Fact ~imply be that thi~ eonsids~lim isn't worth the economic3 thnt we'~e
Counciln~m Senn: So it's not one?
Mayor Chmieh No. Unfortuna~y, it nev~ is.
Councilm~ Senn: So cost, cosling laxpaycm, we're no~ suplmsed ~o give a hoot about I guess.
Roger Knutscn: I din?t~ with th.st_
Councilman Senn: Well I'm just saying what the process may think is what you're saying.
Conngilman Mason: I'!1 second ~ Senn's motion.
Mayor Chmiel: It's been moved and seconded. Any other discussion by Council?
Councilman Mason: I'djustli~tomak~onequick _comment. Ithousht~~it~~i Itseems
to me that the issue is not we versus they. Us versus them. Lak~ Lucy versus Pleasant V'~.w. I persons_ lly
never have and never will feel that ~_hs_ t_ is the issue ~ Wh~ I'm seeing ~ now is, it seems to me 1,
2, maybe 3 or4 people ate doing what they can to change a process thatI be~ Richard said has been a done
dentl. And l thiak it's one thing to get tn an argumc~ get iato a discuss~ in the poliflcal arcmi. Youlose. I
mean I've certainly taken my shols on this Council and w~ and I _th~nk: it's too bad ltmt the llmussnds of
cigzens of _c~smhs~en are now being asked to bear the bunlen of _thi~. And that's iL
23
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Councilman Senn: Don I'd like to make a comment too on my motion because I just...with what Mike is saying
along the last lines there. You know quite honestly I still, if another decision were put in front of us to
reconsider this I would still vote the same way to reconsider it. And probably lose by the same 4-1 vote again.
And I feel strongly that that's something we should do but I also feel eq,,slly as strongly that there's no way we
should pay this kind of cost out of the citizens money to go ahead on this type of an EAW. And again, if we
weren't being litigated, I mean I could see a whole ~t thing but when you're paying atte~eys fees and
now you're saying let's pay BAW fees on top of it and just double the money so to speak, that's just ridiculous.
May~r Chrniel: Okay good. We'll move on.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to direct the City Attorney to prepare Findings of
Fact to deny the preparation of an Environmental Assessment Worksheet for the extenalon of Nez Perce
north to Pleasant View Road. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
H. APPROVAL OF ACCOI~ITS.
Councilman Senn: I had a question on page 5 I guess it is. On page 5 there's a $6,440.$5 expenditure for
payment to the Independent School District for fees for service regarding...to the School District for Hammel-
Green-Abramhamson invoice regarding Chan Elementary Community Program. Last month we approved, and it
was listed as part of the Entertainment Center but when we clarified the issue it was really the same issue but
this was paid directly to Hammel-Crreen and that was for I believe $3,000.00 some odd dollars. Af~
$10,000.00 now on an issue or on a contract that at least, as I understand it, I heard. I don't know. Maybe it
appeared one night when I wasn't here but I never saw the Council approval of any contract like this and that
was clarified at the last meeting that this was a City Council issue, not an HRA issue. And again, I mean with
last month's deal being the Entertainment Center clarification there, this one still being $6,000.00. Now we're
$10,000.00 on the issue, I mean I thought when we go ahead and do studies like this, there's a Council action
upfront approving the contract and what we're heading into. At least as far as I can find, there's no authority to
even do that and I have a real problem with this expenditure just continuing to mount as a result of that. So I
was just wondering what was up with that.
Don Ashworth: I'll prepare a report and have that into your next packet outlining what the costs have been and
what they're likely to be and what has been approved or what hasn't been. I can't answer your question.
Councilman Senn: Okay. The other question was on page 8. What was the Swenson Associate's fee regarding
for the James l~'operty? That's an appraisal?
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah.
Councilman Senn: And now that's the city's expense? I mean it's under a city account, not the HRA.
$7,~00.00.
Todd Gerhard~: ...should be under HRA.
Don Ashwo~: What was the acquisition Todd?...
Councilman Senn: Well, I'd move approval of the accounts with the deletion of the $6,000.00 some until that
r~a't comes and also moving the $7,500.00 out of here and having it properly reclassifiM.
24
Maye~ Chmiek Okay. Is there a second'/
Councilmnn W'mg: I'll second that.
Councilman Senn moved, Coundlman Wing seconded to approve the ac~onnts with the exceptlm of the
check listed on page $ in the mount of ~¥M0_~.q to Independent ~.hool District gl12 and on page 8,
PUBLIC HEARING:
VACATION OF A PORTION OF RIGHT-OF-WAY OF HOPI ROAD LO~ATED EAST AND
PARALLEL TQ N6'.z PERCE DRIV~ TJO ADDITION.
B®
l~_ I~LIMINARY PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE A ~d}~S3 SQUABE FOOT PARCEL INTO 3 SINGLE
FAMII.Y LOTS ON PROPERTY ZONED RSF AND LOCATED AT 6661 NEZ PERLE. TJO
ADDITION, TODD OWENS~
Public Present:
Name Address
A.W. Owens
6535 Peaceful lane
MayorChmieJ: This is a public hearing. ThisJs, and rm going to open th~t public beadng at thh time for item
4(a) which is vacation of a portion of right-~-way of.Hopi Road located east and pnmllel to Nez Petce Drive.
TJOAddifion. And l will hnndle each of these ~y wilh a motion. Unless there may be tnfotnmti_m in
the ~ of both items (a) and (b). One is rehled to the olh~ so I think maybe we should covet ~
portions of that as the public hearing segment then. Then item (b) would be the l~_.llminnry plat tO sllbdivide
50,443 8qtlafO feet parcel Into three ~ fa_ mily lot8 on ptopezty ZOlled RSF ~ localed at 6661 Nez Pea'co,
T$O ^__d,~h~n_'. Todd Owens.
three parceh are heavily wooded with mature tree~. Lot 1 will con_tn_tn an existing home. $1ructutes meet the
required~ Lot 3 will have acce~s off of Nez Pew~ Lot 2 has two olnion~ The first option is getfln8
access ~ ~ ~ ~ The second access ~ ~ off ~ N~ ~ ~ ~ a ~ ~~ ~c
Stnff is in faver of ~nining a/x?,e88 for Lot 2 off of Nez Pea~ mainly becanse we will lose quite a few less trees
via this access. Thc applicant is Ircserving a majority of the trees on site and we ate _rec~m_ mending appzoval
Mayer Cltmiel: Okay, thank you. Is the applicant leto at this time with your ~7 Is there any;hin.e you'd
like to add to Sharmin's telxm~
Todd Owens: No. I'm just hem to answer any questions.
MayerChmiel: Oimy, thankyotc AsImeationedbefote, this is a public hearing. Is there nnyone whhtng to
address _thia issue at this time. Please co~ne fotward ~_nd state yom' nnme and yom' address. Seeings, I'd
like to have a motion to dose the public hearing
25
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Councilm-q Mason moved, Councilman Wing seconded to close the public hearing. Ail voted in favor and
the motion carried. The public hearing was closed.
Mayor Chrniel: Are there any questions that Council has regarding staff or the applicant?
Councihnan Senn: I have a question for Sharmin if I could.
Mayor Chmi¢l: Go ahead Marl
Councilman Senn: Looking at the plan and the point that you're, I'm having a little bit of a hard time figuring
out now, where does this come out on Nez Perce?
Councilman Mason: You know where the Counselor Realty sign is...
Councilman Senn: Okay. All I guess I wanted to get to is.
Sharmin A1-Jaffi...,access to Lot 2.
Councilman Senn: Well Lot 2, as I understand is you're tslidng about providing access in off of Nee Perco
through some type of a easement agreement I assume.
Sharmin Al-$aff: Correct.
Councilman Senn: Okay. So by this driveway coming out at Nee Perce at .mo_t point, does that not then for
example, wherever it was, preclude what Mr. Donna showed earlier?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: No.
Councilman Mason: No it wouldn't Mark.
Councilman Senn: In terms of his option 27
Councilman Mason: No. Because that's fight here. Or no, it's like right here.
Councilman Senn: Okay, that's all. Alright.
Councilman Wing: I don't want to get off the driveway. It's not my turn but as long as we're on the driveway.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, Richard.
Councilman Wing: That was the neighbor's, most of tho concerns of tho neighbors _mot_ had been involved in
this whole process is on tho Nee Perce, it's a blind road. Blind comer. Narrow road and we're putting another
driveway in there, and I remember we talked, tho Planning Commission discussed this. Is that an ~
place for tho drivoway? Is there a better place to put access for these lots? Should they all como, well I guess
tho grade wouldn't allow thom all off of Hopi but what's your position on this driveway placement?
Sharmin Al-$affi. Dave and myself were out on this site last Thursday and it was the most alVlm~riam spot for it
26
based on...WhaI we can do ~o impwve fl~e stnm~ion.
Cot~__~lmsn Wing: A swp sign where?
S]~t'rnln Al-Jarl: At file in~ of Ialr~ Lucy Road alld Nez ~ as you _tm-n/Into Vtneland.
Councilman Wing: Ohlsee, Acityslx)psign, nottbisd~Is7 Okay.
Councilman ~ I think it's a fine place for a swp sign in my opinion.
Council _wom~ Dockendorf: I thln~ a 3 way stop sign.
Counc/lmanWtng: IwishlhepeoplefwmV~w~~ We could vole on it and we'd all be hemes.
Coundlwo~sn ~: Well and ii is a ccsxli~on.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: It is a condition, number 9 which I would reword to say, not evaluate the need but
it is well, I'm sony. You do have to evaluate it. Okay. We need to evaluate it.
Councilwoman Dockend~: Yeah. But I would say not just a stop sign but a 3 way stop at _that intm, scctim~
Mayor Chmiel: I _think Charles would be more man happy to put 4 if he had to. Right CharleS7
Charles Folch'- I'm sorry...
Mayc~ Chmtel: Okay. Any other discuss~7
Councilwoman D(r..kcnd~. Seriously. I'd iilm to word _~t to say the need for a 3 stop signs.
Councilman Senn: Bvaluate and insudl?
MayorChndel: Ithink,hstmishtclimim~alotofpmblmnsycah. 3way.
Roger Knulsca: Sure.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: And how about a couple of Children at Play signs. No ac~_,sny CImr~ while
we're on the issue. What does it take to get a ChiUlrea at Play sign7
Councilman W'm8: Oh, not this again. I'm leaving
Collncilmall Sona: No, giv~ him a half hotlr.
27
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Mayor ChmieA: Go ahead Colleen.
Councilwoman Dockendoff: Succinfly, what does it take7
Charles Folclc In fact I've got a number of boiler plate letters that I should provide for you in your staff
that we send out to residents when we get this type of request. It's basically not...something by the Manual of
the Uniform 1Yaffic Control Device.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Why do we see them around?
Charles Folch: It used to bo used in the past but what they've found was, doing studies with that and a number
of other signs, it creates...is that type of sign really did not, according to the studios, did not affect the behavior
of a driver. It did not affect their speeds. It did not make them any moro cautious. And what they also feat was
more dangerous is that it gave parents a false sense of security by having that sign in the neighborhood. So
fi'om a li,hility standi~int, they basically removed it from.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay. What if a private citizen wanted to erect a sign on the city right-of-way on
their lawn?
Charles Folch: You need a permit to put anything like that in city right-of-way and to bo bonest with you, we'd
bo very concerned about giving a permiL
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Okay.
Mayor ChmieA: Okay, any other questions7 Seeing none.
Councilman Senn: Am we bound by the Minnesota blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
Mayor ChmieA: Yes, unfortunately we are. Trying to get stop signs in this town is absolutely next to impossible
unless you know somebody within MnDot. And that doesn't heap either because tho Governor won't oven do iL
So with that.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: ! would move approval with the change to condition 9 saying that tho need for a 3
stop sisns.
Mayor Chmtea: For a 3 way stop.
Councilman Senn: Just evaluate is ali you're saying then?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: At the intersection at Nez Perce and Lake Lucy.
Charles FoIclc An evaluation?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: An oval~_~_tion.
Councilman Senn: And installation Charles.
Mayor Chmiea: I think it's, yeah that's almost true. I'd really look at that rather hard and long.
28
City Conncil Meeting - August 23, 1993
Mayor Chnfiel: I'm getting to a point where I'm getting _~n, conslantly on people speeai_ 'ng. Peop~ con~n~
in the neighborhoods and we just can't get nil these CSO's or Sheziff Del~'lme~ or our own peop~ out the~ in
time. And it's just getting to be more n~nd mcre and more and it's becoming ~ SO WO'VO ~ ID 8tart
Iook~ nt ~¢~ of ~ thing~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I)~P~ dOWB.
Charl~ Folch: ...thnt in~ agcording to th~ Mannnl and wo'll como back...
any...
lV~yor Chmi~: No. It's something that we'H do nnd it doesn't m~lly stop yon from proc_~g with his
Chnrles Folch: No.
Shnm~ Al-Jaff: Well if we hnve to notify...
Mayor Chmiel: Well thnt'd be the tast of the portion dm-e.
Councilwoman ~: We're just c-nllinE for nn e~_Jl_nnfinn as n pnrt of this. Did my motion inclnde A
andB? Ifnot, Imeantitto. Itdid.
Couneflwomnn Doekendorf moved, Conne~man Wing seemuled to approve the preli~lnary and final plat
~3-16 for T JO Addition nnd Resolntion ~3-74 for vneation of n lmrtion of Hopl Road as shown on the
ptans received August 16, 1~3, and subject to the followh~ run, lions:
nt least 20' x 137.58' of the vacated right-of-why is combined with the snbject
Lo~ ~, Bloc~ 1
Lot 3, Block 1
Shared Driveway
Tree Numbe~. 10-19, 26-30, 35
Tree Nmnber: 46-47, ~, ~ ~ ~
Tree Number: 41 nnd 44
29
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
e
Staff will work with the applicant to address the specific trees requiring removal, depending on the
chosen access. The percentage of treo loss shall remain approximately tho same as was first proposed.
A grading plan for each lot shall be submitted to the City for review and approval at the time of
building permit app~n.
The city shall extend sewer and water to Lots 2 and 3. Lots 2 and 3 shall be assessed the sewer and
water connection and hook-up charge in the amount of $8,544.91 (1993 balance). These fees shall bo
payable at the time of building ponnlt issuance and may be assessed against the property at that time.
Driveway access for Lot 2 may be from Hopi Road or along the lot line of Lot 3 with the sppropriate
cross access easements obtained before ins~llAtion.
The applicant shall pay a cash contribution into the City's Storm Water Management Fund. The fees
shall be calcnlAted by staff in ~ce with the City's Surface Water Man~ement Plan.
m
Full park and trail fees be accepted as a part of the platting of the T$O Addition. These fees to be
collected at the rate in force upon building ponnit application. Cra'rent park and trail fees are $600. and
$200. respectively.
m
A Professional Engineer, registered in the State of Minnesota shall be required to. design the foundation
for the dwellings on Lots 2 and 3.
9. Staff shall evaluate tho need for a 3 way stop sign at the intersection of Lake Lucy and Nez Perce.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimo~y.
AWARD OF BIDS: 1993 SEWER REHABILITATION PROGRAM! PROJECT NO. 93-7.
Charle~ Folch: Last week we took bids for the sanitary sewer rehab with the program for Chanhassen in 1993.
I have to commend our consultant engineer who his estimate...As we pointed out, only two bids were received...
The low bid came in at, came in from Insituform Central with a base bid of $368,820.50. I also should point
out that we did add an alternate to that bid proposal which included realigning a..~sanitary sewer pipo...Twin
Cities & Western Railroad south of Park Road. Last year we ~ to reconstruct it and had a bid of
$100,000.00 which was rejected. This year...half at $56,000.00 so we did, Instiuform has not performed any
services in the city to date but we did do a reference check on them and it had nothing but rave reviews. So
therefore I would recommend to the City Council to award the 1993 Sanitary Sewer Rehab Program, Project No.
93-7 to I. nstiform Central with a base bid of $368,820.50 alon~ with the alternate bid repair work of $56,160.00.
Mayor Chmiei: Any discussion? Question Mark.
Councilman Senn: Charles. I understand whore the budget's coming from on the 368 and we're up just a little
bit there, no big deal Where is the 56,160 coming from on the alternate?
Charles Fokh: That's actually in the budget. We have about a $1~400,000.00 budgeted to work with on
construction projects this year. In working ahead to try to keep the other projects, th~ base projects as
well..Jncorpomte the alternates and still ke~ within our original proposed budget. So we have factored that in
and the amounts of tho base bid and the almmate have be~n budgeted for 199'3.
3O
r
Charles Folcb: F~r 1993, ~s~'s ~
Councilmnn Senn: Or we go to the other guy and see ff he'n do ~ n~ ~e same
Resoln~ #93-75: Counc~mm Mason moral, Couneflwmnan Dockendorf seconded to award the bM for
the 1993 Sanitary Sewm' Rehabilitation Project No. 93-7 to Insimfonn Central with a base bid of
AWARD OF BID FOR ADMINISTRATIVE PICK-UP TRUCK.
Don Ashwm'th: Ac~ ~nlly this is ~ to I~ two vehicles. In the 1993 ~ we hsd sn ~lminis~iv~
vehicle in there. As you're awing, t~ City Council ~t the b~nnin~ of th~ year ]oohx! ax bssic~ly all ~ ~
one,. I kind of held off lrying to ~erlain the need and also we~ we going in lhe be~ direcflon. Ihadirindof
are avstlsh!e for those people. A coupl~ ~ Iho~ v~btcl~ _simply just nfo not renmnnble vdficles Io talin out ou
the rond. That Bscort wnson out tlmre. I d~n't know if you've seen that but I think it's Jn the category of the
Maycr Chmiel: Is that the one you were pushing?
Don Ashworth: And that blue sedan wasn't any bct~r. To thinir thst w~ would bay some type of a luxury
vehicle and then I would con~ to find that Park and~ had used it as a part c~ the fi~n~ contest ~
Laim Ann, I think we'd have some tnajcr showdowns in _tlW nre~ ]11 loo]cilig at tho ~r,c~Ulglt bids _~nt al~
avntlnhle for both thc Tam'us and the, well ~ other larger. Like Scott's.
DonAshworth: Crown V~ okay. And also what maily ia needed for the Pazk and Recreafion Delmmne~t
is a smaller type of a pick-up. Some~ing li~ Todd N~nfrm~n drives. _C~__mpe~ on the back side of iL I d~'t
wnsnctnnHybudselx~dfortheone. I mlked Todd to take quotes on tbose. 'I'ne~sreoffoftheS~ebid~
.. 3l
City Council ~g - August 23, 1993
so you do not require other alternative bids associated with that. We're recommending both the acquhition of a
new Taurus as well as a pick-up type of vehicle with the camper top.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes Mark.
Councilman Senn: A number of filings strllck me as I read through this. Maybe I'm not as enlighten as the rest
of you who have been around longer but you know I read through it and I saw an issue like well geez, Charles'
predecessor had one but Charles doesn't have one. I read that geez, we have vehicles that sro straining or you
know kind of slaff's needs for vehicles or whatever. Do we have a policy that relates to who has cars? Who
doesn't have cars. When should we be, I mean who do we pay mileage to. I mean to me, for example in the
private sector we rarely give cars anymore. We simply pay mileage, and especially on management people and
stuff. I mean if you get fight down to it where it's a function of their every hour jobs or whatever, I mean I
don't know. Again that becomes part of a policy on who you do or who you don't give cars to and who you do
or who you don't pay mileage to, etc. So I guess if there is one, I'd like to see it and have a chance to study it.
If there isn't one, I think it's something we should really look at and consider before we go any deeper into this.
And the Lut comment is, it's all well and good to buy 2 vehicles for what we budgeted for 1 vehicle but it's also
going to cost us 2 times to operate. And that's a separme issue from the budget which is there for the capital
expenditure. That's double the cost basically and that's a longer term and ongoing cost and I think again that's
something that we would need to look at in relationship to an ongoing policy. Again, maybe that policy's there
but I haven't seen it.
Don Ashworth: The Mayor asked me if we were getting fid of 2 vehicles and the answer is yes, indirectly.
Harold has a green Ford Fairmont that 2 years earlier, later. The earlier model vehicle than the blue one so he
would acUmlly get rid of the green one and take the blue one. The Escort wagon I believe we were just going to
get fid of. It would appear as though there's enough questions that, and this isn't something that has to be acted
on this evening. I guess what I would like to do is that, mark down the two questions that Councilman Senn had
rahed. Can I add to that list if other Council members have questions to make sure my report is complete?
Councilwoman Dockendod: I have a question. Well first a comment and then a question. For a lot of the
things where we need a van type vehicle, I think Southwest Metro is very amiable to using their mini van types.
And my second
question is, couldn't we get at least 20 1980 Ford Fairmonts instead of these two vehicles?
Councilman Senn: But who gets to drive them.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, that was something we had mnmd a long time ago to look to see and to answer who
drives what and who gets paid what and who gets mileage and who doesn't. And I think Don did a study here
some time ago to see if it would behoove the city and be in a bet~ position to provide new vehicles to the
employees and let them lease them back from the city and go through a process of that. And pay total numbers
of miles driven on their own perso~ time as opposed to what's done for the city. And I lbtnk we looked at
that and it didn't, wasn't too equitable if I remember. I don't know if you have anything more to add to it but
there were different things that we had looked at to see how we could come out of this without having to buy
new vehicles time. And I might add, when it's time to normally buy a new vehicle, it's at that point where the
need is there. Some of those they get to a point where it's more in the shop than it is nmning and it lakes more
time for Harold to have these things running than it pays to even keep them. And then there's enough mileage
on them that it's time to put them to rest or to sell them to somebody else that wants to do thaL Now there's one
other thing that you're saying with the smaller vehicle that we have. If we have that one, we will sell that and
32
City Comtcll Meeting - Angust 23, 1993
accrue dollars back to offset some of these other costs thnt we have presently, fight'/
Don Ashworlh: Well ngnin, I'll have to go timml~.,m~d Charles, the report itseff b~t I'm ccnfidmt thnt the
opeming costs ~ ~ m o~ ~~ whether it's ~ ~ ~ in one and axle in the oth~, I
think that's going to more than off~t nny ndditional ~ costs you might pi~ up. But n.qnln, I should
work fltrough tlmt with Charles. I would ~_~_d tnhlin~ of th~ ile~ and FH Ixtt it bnclt on to thz ne~
Councilman Senn: YeahDon, Imeann~in. If it wns just me l guess l don't know what the rest of the cmncfl
feels but it just seems to me _ttm__t if we had an inventory and we had a policy, these issues become very easy to
deal with when they come before the Council andit seems to be right now we lack, or at least the ~ lacks
and I b~inir thnt'8 ~om~Rhing t_h~t wo 8hould hnvo in plsg~ I don't know how the rest of the Council feels.
Councilwoman Docln~k~: I think you're right, we ~ have a policy in place but I'm reany to moro ~n
this tonight. I don't have a problem with ~s aCCluisilio~
DonAshworth: Well then if t_hnt's the cnse, lhenlcnn~tolhequestion~ Tnk~hotnepoHcy, there's only
one vehicle _thnt goes home nnd thnt is with our Public Safe, ty ~. It i~ a nugkcd ~ ~. He cnnnot
use that for nny other puqx~ other thnn b~sicaHy ~ ~ ~ _nnd from his home. That i~ not tr~ ns it de~
weekend, you tnke that vehicle home with you but I menn, I'm not really wor~xl about that becanse lnrge green
reimlmrsed mileage.
Councilumn Senn: Well Don whnt I don't nndcrsm~ is in the memo hc~ it wns stnlcd thnt the PrCVio~ person
to Charles had a car provided by the City and now Ctmrles doesn't so what I'm saying, to me there's no clarity
in what is being said.
Don Ashworth: And the City Council from nt~y 4 or 5 years ago really qnemioned thnt _m__~r~ home
privilege by thnt individual and w~ tinnily stuff wi~ just said, it's not worth the number of questions tbnt nre
questions nndjust sakL I'd just ns soon not denl with them. I'll just leave the car here.
Don Ashworth: And I think Chm'les' fmmmion, and I havea't asked the ~ head on but ff YOU knew that
you had a vghi~l~ avnilnhl~ to yOU, yo~ would not, yOtl'l~ not I~,king _m__ire. homo
Charles Folclr That's correct. My only point, to point that out is that vehicle was specifically reserved and
assigned to the igcvious City Ensineer during thc daytime basis. I mcan _dmt'8 my m_m_'n focu~ I I~t called out
33
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
to thc job site. I get a resident that calls on a project, I need a vehicle to be able to go out and address that and
I can't be fumbling through and trying to find a car to use. You know I really need that vehicle re.fred for my
purposes while I'm here at work. Not n~y to take home. That's not my intent.
Councilman Senn: No, and I'm not saying that it is but at the same time, we get tho expense approvnls through
and we're paying everybody mileage and, or I mean we're paying a number of people mileage. I'm just saying,
it'd be nice to have some clarity to that policy is to who has cars, who doesn't. Who has cars avotlohle for use.
Who uses their personal cars. What mileage we pay them, etc.
Don Ashworth: And I can put that report together.
Mayor Chmiol: Okay. Colleen mad~ a motion. Was there a second to that? I think you said you were r~ady to
move on it-
Councilman Mason: I'll second.
Mayor Chmiel: It's moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Councilman Wing: I think Mark asked a good question. I think the policy and it's review and any changes
necessary maybe ought to be done before we buy new cars and make approvals for new vehicles. Sutff's pretty
conservative on vehicles but we keep adding them and I think Mark's questions are really valid. I think we'd be
better served by answering those questions first and then with that information moving on addifio~ purchases.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: But as I unde~tand, this is replacing, not adding.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, no. This is replacing vehicles for vehicles. It's not an addition.
Councilman Mason: And if I might add, that's why I'm going along with the motion. If it was in addition to, I
would have...
Mayor Chrniel: That's where I'm.
Councilman Senn: Can I ask a question of clmificafion7 I thought you said we were only getting rid of one
vehicle. Did I misunderstand7
Don Ashworth: I don't know what we're doing with the wagon.
Charles Fokh: The old blue and the old green...wlll go and Harold will try and band-aid old blue to get a
couple more years of his use out of it- The Bscort Wagon.
Mayor Chmiel: So long as we're replacing the other and we're still replacing the other as well
Charles Folclc It appears that that would likely be the route we would go is to replace that-..
Councilman Wing: Ooh, then I want to tag on Mr. Senn a little more and say, maybe we ought to have a
replacement changeover policy. I mean we've got some dogs out there. Some re~ dump of cars that the Fire
Department doesn't even want to use. We'd rather use our own cars. But if we're getting to that point, maybe
the city ought to be reviewing replacement on a more frequent basis with planned mileages or planned years,
34
City Council Meef~g - Angust 23, 1993
that will be coming (mt in the budgelary process that's _coming rip. So with the ~ that these nre
replacement vehicles, I'd lilm to call the question.
Resolnflon #93-76: Councilwoman Dockendorf moved, Coune~mn Mascm seconded to authorize a budget
amendment to allow monies which had been pledged for a singular vehick to be pledged to the acquisition
of a pick.up (with camper top) for usage by the Park and Recreation Commimim and a Ford Taurus
which cnn be shared by the l~annins and Admlnktralio~ All voted tn hvor, except Coun~ Senn
who opp(stst, and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to L
Councilm~Mnson: CouldI, quick _comment. We'llsttllbegctting some kind of relx~ hm~?
Mayor Cbmie: Yes. Ye~
P~_ RI.IMINARY AND FINAL PLAT TO SUBDIVIDE 4 ACRES INTO 4 SINGLE FAMII.Y LOTS ON
PROI~3t_TY ZONED RSF AND LOCATRD AT 6301 CHURCH RQAD~ CHURuH RQAD ADDITION.
GREG ~.
Sharmin AI-Jnt~ We have before you a preliminsry and final plat. The pfoHminnry plaL
Mayor Chmiel: Can I ask a question? Why are we having the plvJiminnry Ired flnnl all at on~ timo?
Sharmin Al=Jaff: It's an extremely simple subdivision and typically wc do have them both at the ~me time, just
lVlaycrChmicl: Clar~ is an I wanted. Thankyou. CanIhaveamoti~n70h, goaheacL
Cou~W'mg: If this is a simple, and I gucss I know about it becanse I was at Planning. The ksue is the
fire hydrant or sprinkling. V~nat's the decision on thnt7
Sharmin AI-Jaff: At ~ts time7
Sharmin AI-Jaff: Thc final plat is only, is platting the Lot 2, 3 and 4 and out as an outlot so you're really not
nrldi_'ng anything. At th~ time wheJi they come in...
Sharmin AI-Jaf~. Should I read the.
35
City Council Meethg - August 23, 1993
Councilman Wing: For me, frankly yes.
Mayor Chmiei: Go ahead.
Sharmin AbSaff: The preliminary plat proposes to subdivide the acreage into 4 paxcels. Lot 2 contains an
existing home and have frontage off of Church Road. Lot 1, 3 and 4 will take, excuse me. Lots 3 and 4 will
gain access off of a private driveway off of Church Road. Lot I will have access off of 62nd Street. All 3
parcels, or all 4 parcels meeting the minimum requirements. The one issue was fire hydrants for Lot 1. The
Fire Department felt uncomforUtb~ with servicing this parceL If a fire hydrant was located here, it would be
difficult to pull in a fire truck through here and then go over probably snow covered are~ to get to the fire
hydrant and then se~ice the structure, The fire department recommended either sprinklers in the home or add a
fire hydrant in this location. Both those alternatives arc fine with the applicant so at the time when they come in
to plat those three parcels, they will provide either/or. However, at this time they are proposing to just have Lot
1, for the final plat and the rest of the acreage will be platted into an outlet. And that's why you have two sets
of conditions. Staff is recommending approval of both preliminary and final plat with the addition of one
condition to the final plat approval. Condition number 3 would read, a 20 foot wide trail easeanent shall be
granted along the frontage of Church Road.
Mayor Chmieh 20 foot you said?
Shannin Alqaff:. 20 foot wide.
Councilman Senn: Okay, so on the basis that they're platting only Lot 1 and the rest as an outlet, for now the
sprinkler versus.
Sharmin A14aff: Is not an issue.
Councilman Senn: It's a non issue.
Sharmin Alqaff:. Because we won't allow them to build on Outlet A until they've pLat~.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, good. Is C~'eg Reed here this evening? I guess he isn't. Was he pretty much in
agreement with what was being proposed? Any discussion? If hearing none, I'll carl the question, or request a
motion.
Councilman Senn: So move approvaL
Councilman Mason: Second.
Councilman Senn moved, Councilman Mason seconded to approve Prelimim~y Plat ~3.15 for Church
Road Addition as shown on the plans daied July 7, 1993~ and subject to the following conditions:
1. Compliance with the flag lot standards in the RSF district.
1
The applicant shall enter into a development contract with the City and provide the city with the
necessary financial security to gum'ant~ proper installation of the public improvements in compliance
with the conditions of approval for final plaL
3. Park and trail fees shall be paid in full at the rate then in force, upon building permit application. A 20
36
e
o
u
Se
e
10.
11.
12,
13.
14.
improvements lying within public easeme, z~ on Lot 3 shnll become city property eacept those utilities
(sewer nnd wnter) lying north of the lonthedy 30 feet of Lot 3. 'llmse utilit~ shah be owned nad
In lieu of c~ns~8 on-site reten~ ponds, the applicant shall provide the City Storm Walm'
MnnsE~ment Nnnd with a ~ ~mb~ao~ ~ ~ amo~ to t~ d~u~~_ Ur st~ tn a~~ ~tU
the City Storm Water Management Plan.
A cross access or driveway easement tocl__t~ng a maimenan~ ~t M. mn be drafted for ~ 1, 3
and4.
Access to Lot 1 shall be via the privnte driveway ncce~ off of Climb Road unless a home n~
sprinkler ia instnlled in the home. Lot 4 sKq__ll have no ncce&s onto Slate Trtmk I-~ No. 7.
The ~ prim driveway shall be buili to the City's ~ driveway mxtinam, e _smM_srd which is
a 20 foot paved mufac, e to a 7 too desi~.
AJI dnfln the 8yslen:m disturlx~d in eonjlmcfion with ~ hntn"ovement~ ~hn11 be n~.,onnected or relocBled
to p't~_iqtBin lhe e,xis~dng drnhm,oe Ihro~ ~ lite.
and also approve Final Iht for Lot 1, Block 1, as shown m the plan dated AufluSt 17, 1993, and subject
to the ~ condifl(m:
1. Lotl ,hall hnve a rear nnd fnmt yard ntility nnd drainnge easement of 10 ~ ~ 5 feet on the side.
2. Connection to th~ city warn' will be requi~ when tl~ well m the ~ (Lot 1, B~ 1) ~
37
City Council ~g - August 23, 1993
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously,
Councilman Senn: Don, if I could add a caveat to that. Would it be possible to aRIr the, my only issue on this
when I was reading..,rcaily this issue of fire hydrant versus sprinkling for a residential structure. And I had
some real pull and tugs going on on myseff over that stuff. Can we maybe ask the Fire Department to kind of
give us some thoughts on that? To me it's simply an issue that requires a fire hydrant to be extended. I have a
little problem with us starting to require residential sprinkling. But again, maybe that's an incorrect way to think
on my part but I'd rather hear it from kind of thc people who know what they're doing and it'd be nice to ask
the question before this becomes an issue rather than as or after.
Mayor Chmiel: Well and I think they're just ~ldng a precau~ portion.., as I think they probably should but
they're ~ng a precautionary position. If the extension of a hydrant is not there for that per,on, how do they
provide that amount of safety and sprinbling would be the only way. And it's not manda~ by any means of
the imagination but it's from a ramd~t of l~rotectiveness for _that_ individual. But I think we can requ~t ~ome
information back from the Fire Department.
Councilman Senn: Yeah, I think that'd be helpful...understanding what Sharmin said. The applicant was
agreeable to do either and I guess what I'm saying, I'm not sure we want to put ourselves in the position to
leave it an either or. Maybe we want to have again specific requirements.
Councilman Wing: We do.
Councilman Senn: Do we? Do you have one then?
Councilman Wing: I think the idea of giving 2 options were his choice because there's basically no water to the
property. So if he chooses not to use a hydrant connection, and he'd have to put in the tanks, the pumps, to
sprinkle the house in a non-hydrant area is what he's doing. Long term, I don't think that would be. We're
encouraging sprinkli~ of houses and we're hoping it will become the norm because it clearly, it's got some
insurance ramifications and there's no question it saves lives. In this case, I think if this camo back for a final
plat, we'd want to ~llr hydrant.
Councilman Senn: Thc hydrant?
Councilman Wing: I think so. I think if the Fire Marshal was here, he would specify that would be his first
choice. The sprinkling is an option.
Mayor Chmiel: Good. Thank you Richard. Any other diseu~n7
Councilwoman Dockendorf: We already voted.
Mayor Chmiel: Yeah I know. I'm just throwing it out.
Councilwoman Dockcndorf: Sarry.
MILLTRONICS FOR A SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 13~653 SQUARE FOOT ADDITION TO AN
EXISTING BUILDING FOR A TOTAL SQUARE FOOTAGE OF 33,453 (FORMERLY KNOWN AS
INDUSTRIAL INFORMATION CONTROL), ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP, INDUSTRIAL OFFICE
PARK AND LOCATED AT 7870 PARK DRIVE, MILLTRONICS.
38
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Maym'Chmiel: Goc~flmnir you. Just one quick questkm. I read in he~ too tl~t the amount af chemicals on
site ale minimal alld aro stofed in a b~ildin.,o in 1 or 2 ~fl_rm wnmtnem. Are those stored in a self contatned
Sharmin AI-Jaff: Sorry, I don't...
Mayor Chmiel: I just think it's a 8ood ca~ thing to do so in the cvcnt of any idnd of spill thst it would
just amomaflcally stay wttldn it's own self c~ and thst can be a steel liner, plaslic linm', ~
dcdduous.
MaycrChmicl: Sharrntn~ In rcfcrcncc to Mark's question, what is the r~ by the City fcr the sc~
within that pank~l~ area?
Cotm~ Senn: But wasn't that siill ass. ming that th~ existing veg~ wa8 goillg to 8lay ~ I talted to
you? I mean really that's all I'm asking. Thattherobesomercplaccmentinthe~e~..
lvlayor Chmiel: I just want to make sure that what we're d~ing ts not PUffing undne burden and mY cimcems are
that, ff they're going to do an adequatc job of screening with the nddttimal 5 tree~ ~ ~ yon reqnesu~ how
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
However if you wanted to, I don't know, double it,
Mayor Chmiel: Richard, you look like you'd like to say something.
Councilman Wing: Oh, I was just stretching. Although good corporate citizens don't ever balk at a few more
trees in Chanhasscn. That's my opinion. Good corporation citizens would never question your request, whether
it's required or not, I guess I would go along with Mark's suggestion that maybe change that to adequate
screening, whatever that might be and if it's mo~ mn 5, ,o ~ it but I would leave that to your discretion. I
think you've pushed for screening and trees diligently and I don't know ff thsl satisfies or helps you at all Mark.
Councilman Senn: Well I'd really like to sec a combination there. I mean what you asked for wns 5 over
building trees and I'd like to see maybe 5
overbuilding trees and then some interspersed maybe some pines or some_thing liire that that are mote of a year
round scrce, ning.
Councilman Wing: That's a good idea.
Councilman Senn: And they're mom down bra_ idug up the back side of the building wall or whatever versus
the, I mean that's not the cuu~ side of the building so to gpeak.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any other discussion? If hem'ing none, would you like to make a motion?
Councilman Senn: Sure, I'll move approv~! with the addition of additional landscaping to staff's, how should I
term that Sharmin7
Mayor Chmiel: With staff's expertise. Is there a second7
Councilwoman Dockcndorf: I'I1 second it.
Mayor Chmiel: Moved and seconded. Any other discussion?
Coullgilman Senn moved, Councilwoman Dockendorf seconded to approve Site Plan Review ~qF/-9 with n
variance to the hard surface coveraae, as shown on the plan dated July 14, 1993, and subject to the
following conditions:
1. No outdoor storn~e of trnsh shall be permitted except at the location indicated on the plans.
The applicant shall submit gradin8 plans to city staff to determine ff a retaining wall is required along
the north property line between the proposed building and adjacent to the north.
The Surface Water Management Fee currently charge to thc percel will increase accordingly when the
site expansion is completed.
Provide 5 additional overstory trees from the city's approved u'ee list along the north lxrtion of the site
and aH disturbed areas shall be seeded and erosion control blanket installed until vegetation is re,
established. Financial guarantees for landscaping shall be submitted to the City prior to issuance of a
building permit. Also, provide Type IH erosion control around all disturbed areas of the site, especially
40
o
side of thc parkinS lot to eliminate runoff and ~ and to control ~ alofl8 t~ ~
e
'f"n~ d~ign of the southerly edge of the pnddng lot must I~ adjusted to comply wi~ I~ 100 foot
W~ district ~
~ trianl~ 8hall l'C~rmin '_D~nni~ ~0 it ~ ~ impcx~
10. Additional hindocapins will be required per stnfPs apln'ovnl.
An voted in hvor and the motion carried minnie.
~ CODE ~~ TO CHAIFFRR 10 OF TUR CITY CODE REGARDING SEXU,ILI.Y
ORIENTATED BUSINESSES~
Mayor Chmt~l: It'S ~ a ~ ~ _cominco_
approa~ is esm_lgishing a license for these types of uses. A fee for that lkinse. An srmn~! f~ smd a
n~luixement thnt establishes a minimum separation between ~fl~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It's your
recomm_mdin~ that it bo ap[~ The areas thnt WalTalR a ~ ~ ~ is...Coulic]~tm~ Selm
would FCC(:~m~ LS $~SO0.O0...ycRr. Tho ~ tho pIsmnin~ _Comm~ camo tip with wBS, _t~qt
libraries, seaiar cefltcrs, wlm~ver... With that I Suess I'll pass it ~ ov~ to you taxi possibly Rof~..~
Mayor Cluniei: Okay. Ttt~k you primp1__ ~, do you have any infinite words of wisdc~?
Roger Knutson: I'm not goin8 to bore you with a lecture on...the gmeml nde, subject to an exce~ is timt
fccs,..covcr your __s~lministrattvc and e~t cosls of the ordinsnec and they're alL.amy be a good idea
41
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
to...together with Scott I-Iarr and discuss with him what he thinka it will cost to enforce this on a case by c, aao
haaia...and we'll get back to you in the second reading with a suggestion on what an appropriate fee would be.
Mayor Chmiel: And that would be with an ongoing kind of _thing lis well. Ill other words, we're going to havo
those places and we're going to have to do a little more reviewing of it over those period of years.
Roger Knutson: I mean the practice has always been to set fees by resolution which is kind of a good practice
because these get changed. Annually you will update it to experience,..
Councilman Senn: Because this could run into thouaanda right~
Mayor Chmiol: Yeah, that's what I put down there and that's why Councilman Wing wenL I had $10,000.00. I
thought it was reasonable.
Councilman Senn: It's even too cheap then. One other question about sensitive uses. I don't find any or I
mean maybe I'm miaaing something hero but where ia our liat of all the sensitive uses?
Roger Knutaon: Sensitive?
Paul Krauss: Well the uaes for which the setback at, Plies.
Roger Knutaon: They're towards the end.
Councilman Senn: I looked for it. I just must have kept missing it. It wasn't maybe a big enough list, I don't
kllow.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well we walk a pretty thin line between having to have it somewher~ and not
wanting it anywhere.
Mayor Chmiel: We're not looking forward to getting one of these but this ia something that many cities had
problems with and they dam near put it anyplace they wanted to.
Roger Knutaon: Bottom of page 12. Section 10-16~
Councilman Wing: I think I should take the advocate'a position hero. Thia ia just
Councilwoman Dockendorf: For fun or what~
Councilman Wing: No. it's aeaionsnesa. What if I happen to like this type of stuff and believe we should have
it in the city. What are you guys going to do then? I may repres~t the ma,~ority of thia community. But I move
And thia ia just fi_rat re~ir~g7
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes.
Council~ Wing: What position are we at on thia by the way?
City Conncil Meeting - August 23, 1~93
Mayor Chmiel: This is our first _re~ling.
Roger Knumm: Yes.
Mayor Chmiel: Is them a second?
Coumilmnn Mason: Yep.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion?
Mayor Chnfiel: The only place I'd like to put them ~ be in the indnstrhl Ired=
Councilman Senn: Well I mean that's kind of what I'm comin~ bnck to. I mean is the~ nre the~ court
establi~'u~ldeflnitionsnstowhntnr~nmtwhntnren'tseasifl~nrca~ I-Iave we pushed it to the mnx? Imenn
CoundlmanSenn: wen tlm wns my next question. In~nnhavewetnk~amapnnddntwntM~outSOOfeet?
Roger Knulsm: I have not.
Mayer Chmiel: Okay. I _think we have a motiou on the floor with a second I~ have Roger have
discuss/oas with Scott to come up with _thnt fee. I Ihink thnt $~00.00 iS v~y minimnl.
Comicibnin Wing moved, Com~ 1Vlasm meconded to approve first reading of City Code mendment
to ~napter 10 oftlte City Code resnrdlng sexually orknted bmdnesses. All voted in byre*and the motion
43
City Council ~g - August 23, 1993
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
A. NEW CHANHASSEN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL! CITY PROGRAM OPTIONS.
Don Ashworth: For item A I would like to have Todd Hoffman present the report.
Todd Hoffman: Mr. Mayor, members of the City Council. In regard to my portion of the presen~_flon this
evening, I apolosjzo if I'm not as lively as usual. I've been under the weather the past couple of days. A
condition which my doctor attributes to stress and stress related... As you arc aware, the city's participation in
building a school in the city dates back for some time. We all...participated with the district as they put forth an
effort to pass a referendum to fund the construction of a new high school and a new elementary school. The
elementary school being located at Highway 5. The intersection of Highway 5 and Galpin Blvd in Chanhassen.
In designating this site it was the city's intention to participate at some level in the development of the school
and the school grounds. At present approximately 20 acres is assigned to the school and 20 acres is assigned to
the city in the park district. The firm of HGA was relaineA by the city to develop a city program and
prelimi~ concepts for the school site. These concepts were ini_ti_~lly presented to the City Council, Park and
Recreation Commission, Plannin~ Commission, on Monday, July 19th of this year. Direction from the Council
that evening was to review this issue independently with the Park and ~n Commission and the Planning
Commission. Review by the Park and Recreation and Plannin~ departments and commissions did take place on
Tuesday, August 10th and Wednesday, August 18th respectively. I will be happy to provide the Council with
additional information regarding those meetings ff you so choose. Actions taken by the Park and Recreation
Commission on the 10th was a motion made by Vice ~ Andrews and seconded by Chairman Schroers
to recommend the City Council proceed with the development of Option No. 2 as the preferred program for the
school ~. All voted in favor that eveain~ and the motion passed unanimously. Planning director has
provided an update that the Planning Commission reviewed the proposal at their August 18th meeting, as I
discussed and...proposal as presented. Prom time to time the Council has askexl for support from it's various
commission members. I believe we have 6 of 7 Park Commissioners present with us this evenin~...ask questions
of them. We also have present Mr. Dave Lesche~ and Mr. Bob Rothrnan with HGA and Iohn Gockel, the
Construction Manager for the School District in this regard. These gentlemen will provide the Council with a
presenta~n in this regard. In regard to the city's program and the preliminary concepts that have been
developed to date. Prior to that presentation however I would like to bow to Don Ashworth, Todd Gezhard~
Paul Krauss to provide their...in this regard. And lastly, staff is requesting that the Council reach a conclusion in
this regard this evening. I would be happy to discuss with you the reasons why we need to move forward with
this issue and would be...the city program in this re~ard if the Council wishes.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. Any questions? Richard. Colleen?
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Well I think some good points were brousht up at the Park and Rec Commission
and the one that most concerned me was funding. If we uso TIF dollars to do this project, what are we
foregoing? And there are a couple of things that we may be foregoing, whether or not we get the ISTBA
funding for the Bluff Creek underpass. But it is my understanding tl~ that district will be refunded by
additional dollars when the office park expands. Is that conwt7
Don Ashworth: If you see additional expansion, the numbers will get larger, meaning there'd be more increment
available for potential new projects. One of the discussions Todd Hoffman and I had was right now there
haven't been other projects that emerged so this is really tho only one that I'm aware of that's going to be in
front of you. And our discussion was, the idea of the field house was very interesting. One in which I think the
community could benefit from but are you better off in trying to take a bird in the hand or wait a few years to
44
City Council Meeting - August 2.3, 199:3
take and go for something larger. And I guess om' conclusion was, you're lm~mbly betlm' off.
money. They're doing the constractton now. Thts is the time u~ do iC Go with the smaller
the dislflct, tha~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I~ r~funded by those monies. So we're not ccnnple~y blowing our wnd on
this project I guess is what I'm saying.
Mayor Cluniel: Okay. Any othe~ Colleen?
Conncihnnn Mnson: No questions at this tim~
C/mnSlmnn Se, nn: I guess, I ~'t ~. ~ it's just h~uddng a old dead horse but I guess I'v~ got to hn~h
it anyway. I really don't have a problem with this kind of joint use c~ disc~__~ou if we're ranting about ou~loor
uses such as fields and smffli~ we have at centralpadr= Idm'tseearealbigissuewiththnt. Ithinkit'sabig
leap m jump the city imo a Imilding ~ ~hed lo ~ I mink tI~'s a real policy co~sid~agon f~
theciiy. And l guess in my mind flmt's not one we just a~ on as an mtministmltv~ ilmn on the ~~ Iltdnk
flua's ~ing we should really Imv~ a public hearing on and mak~ an open decision c~ Aside ~ Iha~
funds in the downtown disuict, and t~ may impact ~r po~e~sl~y ~ wlmtmr w~ can do a community
a msmmr _emt ~,' ~ bulldi~'s in o~e ~ and ~sWs in the ogmr and maybe we still want ~o look at a
commimity c~lll~i' or some~_ in~, It j~t scans w~ o~ht ID 1.~ny ~ th~ type o~ st
onto school ~ And I und~r~and the issues _~ w~ can, I mean t~ lxflnt's mad~
~ tho~ b~_'idings ~ community ~mminl~ 10(~ of tho ~ ~ ~ ~ I just lmve a hard lime I
especially when flmr~'s no joint powe~ asreemems cr any~i,Lo in frmt of us tim ~ls us wha~ ~ we
45
City Council Mee~g - August 23, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, and I'm not going w beat a dead horse. I think just on that last position of working with
the school distflct as we have, we've worked with them before and we've woied everything out as a city and I
expect we're going to do that again. And I don't see that as a real given problem. $o with that I'd like to call
the question on this.
Todd Hoffman: Mr. Mayor, would you like to hear at all from HGA in this re/ard, or have you heard that
before?
Mayor Chrniel: I think we've probably, well let me ask Council. Would you like to hear more on that?
Councilman Wing: I'd like to see the proposal reviewed.
Todd Hoffman: They do have copies of the latest version of the pwgram.
Councilman Wing: I'd like to see it and I don't have it in front of me here. That's why I was curious because I
~n to agree with Mark. I was happy here with the land and assisting the land use and ptur/mse of and
paying that down. Then I kind of for some reason were thinking we were bowing out and we weren't going to
be building the school. But I don't know. I have concerns about HRA priorities and expenditures. I'm not sure
this is where I would want the money either so I'd like to hear more about it.
Mayor Chmieh Okay.
Councilman Wing: Although I'm not t_~iug on Park and Rcc Mark, I'll tell you that,
Mayor Chrniel: That's one of the factors that I see with this is, there are a lot of people who have looked at
this. A lot of people have considered it and I respect their opinions on it because they deal with in on an
everyday basis. We deal with it every once in a while and I know where they're coming from and they're
looking to see what's going to be best for the city. We look at it from the best of what are our expenditures and
I think expenditures in this particular case have been, should be put to sleep as far as I'm concerned.
Councilman Wing: Would you allow the time to have that proposal reviewed? I'd like to see it.
Mayor Chmiel: Be more than happy.
Councilman Mason: While they're getting ready, I'd just like to make the quick comment. I was at that July
19th meeting and we were asked to make some decisions that night and I was one of the many I think that said
look, I want to hear what all thc commissions have to say before I get my two cents in. And this has been
pretty unanimous all the way down the road and I don't think I like spending city's money or TIF's money
anymore than anyone else does but the cry for recreafio~ facilities of any kind iht his city, wherever they may
be, I see as a paramount issue. So I'll listen.
Mayor Chmiel: Who's on first?
Dave Lescheclc My name is Dave Lescheck. I'm the architect for Hammel-~-Abrahamson and what Todd
has passed out to you is an abbreviated version of the new program for the new facility here in Chanhassen.
There are four parts to this abim~viated program which I'll review with you. In it has the community program
areas, the school program areas so that you can compare one versus the other where it's referenced. Bud/ets
and a schedule. The first pate, pa/e/5 entitled ISD #112 Area Summary, that is the space.., description for the
46
~,000 Sqtla/~ ~ of commordty ]go~rnmmin~a. ~ ~ ~ d~Jipm~,d__ as yon go ttnough the lm3grmn.
Page 11 is the physical educntim~ program for tho school This is what ntgnmny would be ~ in nn
ofspaccswhtchwasthen~ Coming up with both ~ landOptton2. Option2~thntwhich
to 10,800 square feet but it's nvnnnhle to the corem_tm _t~y. Whether tho school's in session, when it's avm*tnhl,,- to
court basketball court becomes available cr two more 3/4 courts become avnttn~!e. T'ncre's _~t__ n..a Inovided for
aplxoxinmcly 200. Thcrc'sanacrobics~ I.ockn'rooms. A fitness room. Asepemtcentryand
23 ia thc Chan~ community pmszam. This ~m itrAm~ a 4,000 square foot space that would bo
for instnnce thnt Todd hns ~y mcnltoned. Yon see 4 moro soccer fields ns well ns 4 soflbnll fields.
112 Project Budget, ap~y $9 milli_rm, l~nhor below you have tho _Chsmhn~en Project Budget Option
No. 2 for nn ndditionnl $2 million al:qgog~n~Jy. Thoso numbers havo been established n~In_,o tho s~mo
_~__ff peopl~ involved with this project so ns to facilitate tho tmpL~n_ ~ of ~ _commenity lm3grmn into tho
47
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Councilman Wing: Representative Workman pursued gymm~ums. I remember every time he brought up tho
gymnasium I fell asleep. I could care less. I have no need nor does my family for gymnasiums. However,
we're runners. What ha0pened to the track? Everything we've talked about from the downtown right on
throngh had a track and now it's deleted in Option 2. Why did Park and Rec delete and/or running track which
really serves the community at large, especially the women that don't play basketball.
Todd Hoffman: With the city's inability to look at Option I which included a much larger gymnasium. You
would have been able to put the track up, second level on the mezzanine and you had sufficient distance to
justify the expense... Downsizing the gymnasium or if you downsize this track or whether it would be to such a
point where people would not utilize it and just because a short distance...
Don Ashwonh: How short would the track be? I mean are we kind of on an edge type of thing?
Councilman Mason: You could get di~y and fall over.
Dave Lescheck: The initial discussions were that the curves would become so banked that it would be almost
impossible to run that track.
Councilman Mason: You'd really have to go fast on those cornets.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I have a question about the layout of it. Is that still, I mean ff we approve tho
pieces of it, are we still open to shifting where things are? I mean we talked about should thc hockey facility be
up near the road or should it be closer. I mean do we still have the ability to move thin~ around7
Dave l..esch~k: I think at this time, aguin we are in schematic phase and there certainly, as I mentioned during
the schedule, we would be working with your staff to make sure that their portions of the program are in fact
what it is they want.At this point that schematic site plan, there still are a number of variables, whether it be
location...Highway 5, the proposed relocation of Highway 5...Galpin as well as the collector streets themselves
which they really haven't been determined at this time. So I think when you're looking at that schematic plan,
you need to keep in mind that it is just thai and the real intent there, correct me if I'm wrong.
Bob Rothman: It's still considaexi the concept plan.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: It's still a concept, okay.
Dave Lescheck: Yeah, is that we have got...the 4 soccer fields, the 4 softball fields at this point.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Right. So whether we terrace those or whatever this facility is up here and the
~nnis courts are here is still all open?
Dave Lescheck: That is con'ecL
Don Ashwor~h: I think it should be recognized that the School Board has a number of questions similar to
yourself so they want to be assured that the gymnasium, what they're buying for a gymnasium is on their
property. That the school is on their property. Your question such as electrical service and I would see that, I
guess I visnmlize this as we own a park out there. We're going out and we're putting a gymnasium on our
property along with these suptxnlive type of uses. The school is building a school and a gymnasium. Their
gymnasium will happen to he right next to our's. Since we can influence theh' decision, we don't really want
48
them to build a ~ymnnsium like they built over lmre. We don't wnnt a 15 foot high ce,_ qin_.o, ~in~U-' gym that
can only beusedby nn 8 to 12 yenrold. We'dli~to havethe gym hav~ the ndditionnl height nnd the
in lt~ ~tening we would h~ve 4 courts. But I would supp~ th~ Mayor's ~ and that is tlmt w~ fac~l a
pm'ties. ]~u"dl~mofwl~flieissuewm. Ihaveno~inmymindth~wecsnflsumoulhowlumak~
they're just not gong to be able Io do _~mt- So tlmm are a number of issues tlmt we wiIl have to wod; out but
~nn Doc. kendo~. IguessI~~~~~~~tt~toshnm~ Separate
entrances. How all that works, ls them some e~nmples ttmt we cnn look to wlmm we've seen tht~ ktnd of
Dave Lescheclc I think the one example is ~. Th~ new elemenlnv/school or recently compl~xl, I
believe they've been in lhere a couple of yenr~ They have a community, we.H tt~ have ~ limit
Council _wom~ Dockemtoff: Okay, so this is kind of new ground bnt we're not on the.
Dave Lescheck: No, no~ necessm'~y. HGA, a lilfle lx~kEmund on HGA is that we, Bob nnd I w~ belou8 to Ihs
educ~ic,ml~nt Tne~'sa~~~{nmsesmemsofbuildingtypes. Our'sjusm _.~splxmsu)
awnrc of the fnct _dmt fnciliti~ cost sigtdficant dollars to build, ~pectally with tl~ ndvent of technolo~ into the
indicates it's an Barly Childho(xl and FnmHy Bducation and thi~ pmgrnm stntes _thnt the ~ ~ through
th~ ECFE program must be avnilabk~ to the _community 7 dnys a week as ~ as~.~o ~i~ building is inlmted Io
Councilman Mason: No comments. No queslion~
49
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: Mark.
Councilman Senn: No. Not on the layout.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright, thanks.
Larry Schroers: Mayor and City Council. I'm Larry Schroers, 1020 Carver Beach Road and Chairman of the
Park and Rec Commission. I think that very briefly I could address a couple of lvlr. Senn's concerns regarding
the development and...to replace the community center at all. We see this as an outstanding opportunity to
address some current needs in a timely manner, particnhdy in regard to orgAniTed youth activities, which is
something that we need tight now and something that we'd be able to capitalize on and be made to benefit the
city. And this would also give us more diverse ol~ at such time as the community center becomes a
reality by having these current facilities in place and in existence, we would be able to take a better look at what
other options and maybe it will build into a community center at ltmt point in time. But we certainly expect this
to take the place of a community center.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, thank you. Anyone else?
Councilman Senn: I have a question for the Chairman of the Parks and Rec Commission, if I could. As far as
the Parks and Rec Commission goes, if you knew that this dislrict's boundaries could be expanded, okay. And
given other priorities that Parks and Rec has, and given potbelly so that there will or won't be enough funds
available for a community center in the other district, is _thst_ something you looked at? Considered in your
priority scheme? Were you aware that the boundaries of this dislrict could be expanded?
Larry 8chroers: Yes, we were aware that it could be expanded and from our point of view, hopefully would
happen and there would be more tax increment tingeing money available for the things that we need but in
terms of priorities, facilities for orl/nnized youth sporting activities is a number one priority and a community
center is more like nice to. We would like to have it but the more urgent need is to facilitate the needs of tho
youth programs in the city. -
Mayor Cluniel: Thanks La~. Any other?
Councilman Wing: What do we have to do with this tonight?
Mayor Chmiel: That was my question. If we continue to pursue this, that's what I'm, that's what I was curious
as to where and what direction.
Don Ashworth: Yes, Mr. Mayor if I may.
Mayor Chmiel: Don.
Don Ashwo~: The HGA and the School District have a concern as to whether or not the City does wish to
see this program element added to the overall school project and whether or not they should be moving into tho
specific design stage with the understanding that these program dements would be added to that overall work
effort and knowing you haven't seen tho master plan yet and you don't have a sp~ifi¢ building to look at and
have you adequately addressed the security issues and all the rest of those things. But is the city supporting the
overall idea of incorporming these program elements with the assumption that they will come up with a specific
design element and bring those back to you and show you how security works and how ownership, how we own
50
City Conncil Meeting - Augast 23, 1993
this firm1 plan becanie if we're not, then thc*y need to Imow thnt so they can just go ahead with d~?,Ioping a
m_n_stcr plan for an elementary school I guess thnt's.
Maycr Chmiel: That was my ccnccrn. We're going what direction and I think that's what we're going to como
up with rtght now. As Donhas~wecithcrccntinuetopursuetheoptions~~m~
not new but it's innovative nnd I think we should try to pursue mst Imnic~t~r position. So with that, I would
District 112 fm the new elementnry school Would there be a motion to ccntinne.
Councilwoman 1~. I'd Iikc to make thnt motion to continne purs~ns the option.
C~uncilman ~ I would li~ to scccod it
Maym' Chmie. l: Okay. Any other disc~
Councilman Senn: This only pertains to lmrsning the issue~
May~r Chmiel: 'I'nat's what we're lookin8 at. The prolFam and pre~im~ concepts as to what's _comi%~
throush.
Cotmcilm~Scnn: So ttmre win, Imenns?tn. I look at this beymd just an administmlive issue. Ithink
there's a significant policy issue hc~ dmt really needs to be exposed for sc~e public input- And if this ts kind
of matter of f~-*ting or prccl~g the eotpemfiture of ~ million on th~ project, I want to be ~ml clear thnt this
isn't _that bgcal]8~ I think if we're going to spend $2.5 milH~l on this proj~ I think first of aH und~ State law
we're required to have a public hearing just as we did on _s~nS the million dollars for thc land e~ 700 after
the school portion ~c ~ But I mean if that's aH we'l~ talking ~ i~ pu~ or !~ at or studying I
guess a con~ I ffoess ~'s what I want to und~ Is that wlmt we'x~ talking ~ ~ are we talking
about 8o~_ ing I~yosld tl~
thnt the Coullcil Itlld th~ School District wnnu~ the nssurnnce _th~ you're not going to pull the rug out fix~n und~
them~sayoh. Welllnevernndm~aodthatwewc~goingtospcnd$2.Smillimi. Orln~erund~stooddmt
we were 8oin8 to try to build 2 gym~nms which nrc divided into four 3/4's. I thlnir thnt ff staff nmi HOA mid
WerenHydidn'tmeanit. I think the School Board would be very disappointed. Staff would be nnd I _thtnk the
consuPnnt.
Councilman Senn: Okay but that doesn't nnswcr the question of public ~ I mcan I d~inlr we need to get
public input before we mnim the decisiom ff yon're saying we're going to be ~nd~ng the sch~ district down,
51
City Council ~g - August 23, 1993
shown in that plan modification the actual improvement of this site to include for example the gymnasium?
Todd C~rha~e I'm trying to remember. I do not think so. I think it just highlighted public improvements and
land acquisition.
Don Ashworth: So that there were no further, so there weren't questions on this, the best action we should be
then tnirir~g tonight is in addition to the generalized support, actually calling for the public hearing and ff we can
get that taken care of in 2 weeks, we do it in 2 weeks.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: I think we should.
Councilman Wing: I think that when we authorize the pursuit of this, we're authorizing major expenditures. I
mean you're pulling out $3,000.00 here and $7,000.00 here and blowing fuses, if I can just use that word. I
mean it's not like this is going to be $10,000.00. This is going to be tens of thousands when we start pursuing
this and my recollection of all the meetings I've attended is we had land acquisition. I wasn't building a school
Councilman Mason: But we're not building a school.
Councilman Wing: Nee, but we're building.
Mayor Cluniel: We're building the additional facilifies...bud~et
Councilman Wing: Yeah, we weren't involved in structures. And now we're crossing over lIRA. Here's the
City Council sitting here saying well, let's do it. There's the liRA saying, well we don't have the money or we
do have the money and we've got all these TIF districts and are we inoringing on HRA's ground hea'o a little
bit'?
Mayor Chmiel: No, this district's an Economic Development District. It's governed by the Council.
Councilman Wing: No issue at all involving the HRA.
Councilman Senn: No, this isn't an HRA district.
Councilman Wing: So we're not going to get into TIF and the I-IRA?
Councilman Senn: Well it's TIF. Don't get that wrong.
Councilman Wing: But under an economic district. That's where I'm losing fl~s. ~ goes over my head.
Okay. Alright, that wasn't clear to me. That wasn't clear to me. I thought this was all TIF ~-ough McOlynn's
but you're saying that that entire district then is an economic dis~c~, right7 Is that wl~ you said?
Councilman Senn: Right
Councilman Wing: I didn't understand that. So then I'm lost on that ~u~. So forget that HRA and pardon me
Mike. I was staring at you. l.~t's pursue this but let's get the public heating going.
Councilman Mason: The public hearing, yeah. I mean we have to do it. I think we, as lead,s of this
52
City Council Meeting - Angust ~, 1993 :
community need to understand dmt we have an oppmlunity heze thnt_ will not present ilself ,_onln. And I thlnir; I
don't, obviously we need public input and I'm not in any way trying to preclt~ that but I, sometimes I think
this Councfl gets so disum]sht over, weflIcan'teveafindthewonk It'ssctfingtoolate. Butthe~'ssn
we're going to do I don't see benefitting the school I see it benefitting the city of Ctmnhasaea and we're not
mtsing taxes by doing it. I mean this ta some argumeats wc'vc gone over so much. Sofine, Isaymov~~ -
mean how many questions can we ask and how many times can they be answered in 10 ~t.ways.
Councilnum W'mg:- Okay, okay. What can I do to ~? Okay.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, can I have a motion?
Maycr Chmiel: And a second.
Councilwoman Dockendorr moved, Counc~mm Mason seconded to proceed with the devel(~ment of
Option 2 as the preferTed program for the ekmentary school property and call far the public hearing on
the modification of Devd0pment District N~ 2 (Resolnflon No. 93-76A). All voted in favor, except"
Conncihnan Senn who oppmml, nnd the motion cnrded with a vote of 4 to 1.
Councilman Wing: I really appreciate going.
Mayor Chmiel: And we'r~ going to set thru public he, rains for 9. wee,~ from today.
Don Ashworth: Well as quickly as we can. There's Stm~ law tequinmmats in there and I don't know if we'll
quite get tluu done.
Cotmcilm~ Wing: And Mr. Mayor, I really _think _that Mike's _commegltS wea'o a real clarifi~titm, and for Mark.
I realize you disagree with this but this clearly is a commnnity ~ty for the entire Corem ~unity alld it's sm
Bo
PRI~~A~ON OF TH 101 TI~H. PRO~.C-H' ~u.rl'Y b~rlJDY AND REPORTt
DRAFT~ PARK AND RECREATION DIREC'FOIL
Todd Hoffmnu: :Mr. Mayor, members of the City CounciL As you'll recnn, this issm of tho study of the T~mlr
I-~ghwny 101 trail segment goes back 6 or 8 months. Commnnity meetings we~ hem this pnsL..~ meetinss
thi, evening from BRW's department that completed _that work and !~ will present thc findings in regard to... !
do wi~h ~0 infoITll tho Coulx~ thnt ~ pl~seal~Jon l~[H~elll~ a WO~ 8e88Jon on ~ ~ ~lsl~t~ of
the trail only. l~n~s~ leavit, f~n~n~a~ study, how you would aero,ny pay for the trail consU~tion was
53
L
City Council lVleexing - August 23, 1993
Park and Recreation Commission which...Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission. That the Park and
Recreation Commission believes that the proposed Trunk Highway 101 trail is vital to the health, safety and
weffaze of the community of Chanhassen. And secondly, that a trail represents the only remaining trail segment
to be completed as part of the Phase I trail system (1990-95) as identified in the recreation section of the City's
Comprehensive Plan. With that I would ask the Council to call on Mr. $ohn Horn for his presentation.
Mayor Chmiel: Very good. Thanks. $ohn.
Councilman Senn: Mayor, Don. Just a question as it would relate to time. Couldn't we just receive this report
tonight and essentially just schedule a public hearing or something on it and then get all the infommflon at one
time rather than sitting through a presentation multiple times?
Mayor Chmiel: I think we're going to wind up with a public hearing on it. I agree. But I don't know if this is
the time as yet because all we're doing is looking at the basic, preliminary engineering study that has been done.
There are other factors that are involved in this, as you well know with what's going to happen with TH 101.
And some of those concerns are still with me and as I had mentioned to you before, I supported tho frail system
along TH 101 but the dollar factor is the problem...
Councilman Mason: Or (d), all of the above.
Mayor Chmlel: I know I made that commitment probably 4 years ago in saying that we should do that but it
Just, yeah. MnDot is really the dam controlling factor for it and I know those people need the accessibility of
getting out of their residential areas and safety is the facurr within but that's the key answer.
Councilman Senn: You're saying MnDot's the key?
Mayor Chmiel: I believe that that's the key to the whole ccaxidor along TH 101 with the trail. Knowing what
they do. Whether we put it in before they do any expansions or widen and take this out. Yeah.
Councilman Senn: I don't know where Don is but I thought we had all that information. I mean I thought we
knew what MnDot's plans were. I mean MnDot has TH 101 classified as a, I can't remember what the heck
their classification is but I mean it's a classification that doesn't allow them to spend any more funds on it othe~'
than absolute safety type maintenance.
Mayor Chmiel: That's exactly right.
Councilman Senn: You know and I thought MnDot had been trying to talk to both counties into tAldng it but
neither one wants to rake it. I mean MnDot has said very clearly they have no plans to do anything with TH
101.
Mayor Chmlel: Well and not only that but you've got Eden Prairie who owns half of it and we own half of it.
Councilman Senn: Well I mean the State owns all of it but that gets back to the issue of the cities and the
counties and what's what. But again, and MnDot's plan, policy, everything else is designation of the highway is
that nothing's going to happen. I mean are we going to work to try to change that?
Councilman Wing: That's not true. Something's going to happen. You're not going to tie the Crosstown
freeway into TH 101 and then not do something. Something is going to happen.
54
City ~il ~g - ArtiSt Z3. 1993
Colil~_'lm~n So/in: That ws~'t MiIDoL
Councilwon~n Doc. kemio~. You're probably tight but.
·
somethin3. SO I'm looking futward 1~ th~ me~ of the 261h.
Councilman W'm8: They maybe don't hav~ to do nnything but clenfly that road's not going to hnndle the
mmlnus of a major freeway without something, whether it's done by Bden Prairie, Clumhn~en in coc~linalion
or the State or the County, but I lhink these need to he re~olved. TI~ othe~ issu~ that Todd I want to havo
upfrmt here filet awa~ is I'd like to imow the compl~ history sad cost of the existing ~ h ~
I have no problem with thnt ~ if I've paid $8.00 per foot on ~annewnshm Pnzkwny and Mm~ psid $8.00 per
foot on Minnewnshtn Parkway, rm ~ with thnt but ~ht, is going to be $14.00 or $~20~0 per foot, or $40.00,
then maybe E~_mnewnshta Parkway people don't want to ~ fully and nmybo then ff this trail is really
going to connect to downtown with this. Orawillin~e~stosnplmrtthat. Ifnot, mynei~flxntxmddoesn'twnnt
to pay $40.00 per foot fcr trails ~nt are going for $8.00 n foot eisew~ and then the lundin_'E becomes, nnywny.
raises $380,000.00 renl quick to $533,000.00. I'd like w seo th~ justify! and rd a~o lovo to see it cmn~ to
Hke that. Tnat's why we left it fairly high.
Councilman ~ Okay trot I'm just curious why you did bec. arise when I rend h~ through yo~ repro, I
don't find anywha'e in it that says we need to acquiro right-of-way.
John Ham: Our intent is to try to avoid ncqn~ng right-of-way but a~ain futttmr discussions with MnDot and
this recom~ separation, we'd like to try to avuld acqutr~ right-of-way and it may bo a poasibility ~.t we
might have to acquire some in some arens..~'s really the ~ ~ factor in here. Wo tn~t with
55
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
them and they gave us some general guidelines. I guess we..,work with us but they're also going to have some
criteria thaL..and I guess we don't know exactly what those are going to be until we get a little fun~t along
with the design costs.
Mayor Chmiel: Any other questions7
Councilman Senn: Where are we going from here with this7
Mayor Cluniel: I think we're waiting to sit down with MnDot the hter part of this month to find out exactly
what position they're going to lake and I think once we find that out, then we can probably bring this back and
discuss it at one of the other Council meetings. And I think it's the 26th is that we're meeting and I didn't put tt
in my book.
Councilman Senn: What, I mean you know I under~ they've done and good idea to have a meeting but I
have a teal hard time imagining much is going to be accomplished in one meeting on anything with MnDoL
Probably will take quite a number of meetings.
Mayor Chmiel: We're going to get preliminary information is what we're going to get.
Councilman Senn: No, I understand that but I'm just saying, 3 months ago we went through public meetings
and we, had our consultant stand up in front of them and say that we'd have a study done in 6 weeks and we've
got a lot of people out there wondering what tho heck is going on. Now 3 months later and they haven't heard a
word back on what's happening or anything else and I think we've got to do something here to disseminate some
information or do something so these people know what's going on. At this point they kind of feel like, geez we
were told 6 weeks. It's 3 months so you know, we've been had again or whatever. There's a fair amount of
sentiment developing out there that they're just being ignored again. If that's wrong, I think we should get the
information out and let them know that they're not and exactly what's happening. We have a list of all those
people that attended the m~tlngs.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe if we'd have had the newspaper here it might have gotten in the newspaper. But being
that it's not, it's a little difficult to do that.
Councilman Senn: Weli, we can get the city to do something.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't know if the city can until we know exactly what MnDot's going to do. You know,
whether you put the cart before the horse or the horse before the can, that's really what it boils down to.
Councilman Senn: We asked all their input into the study. Why don't we let them know the study's done and
dLsse~te the study or something.
Mayor Chmiel: Well maybe we can put an article in the paper.
Don Ashworth: We've held a meeting with the neighborhood prel~inarily, right? Wouid it be in order to have
another meeting with all of those people to have you go back through the report again?
John Horn: We did have two meetings on it. I think it probably would be a good idea to have a neighborhood
meeting. We could pin the preliminary plans on the wall. People could come in and say I live here and they
could see back across where the trail would fit on that property and it would give us an opportunity to get out
56
MayotCbmiel: AndI~~s_t'swher~~~~e~. If w~ can find out from tho~ l~mpl~
whether or not there's going m be right-of-way cost by them. I'd lov~ to se~ ltmse ~ ~ it but I imow
the r~mrt and I really didn't fi~_ wher~ w~ ~ to idm~ what ~ cost, bow's this thing going to b~ paid fat
and I don't know if ths~'s stmmhing ~_h~_ _ w~ ~mply ask BRW io try to do ar
~Sean: Yeah, youkaowlagreowithDm. Fmnotsumapubliomemingisth~or~
meeting's the way to go but I think wo really need ~o ~ the inftmml~m. Let people imnw wtam~ it
whether we'r~ tnlking 380. $onmt~g less thnn 380 Or 530 or somethtn~ more thnn 530. You've got a Imally
Mayor Chmiel: I agra.
Councilwoman Dockemimf: Yeah, tell him to wr~ an axficle.
but n.onin, you can't hold that type of heating if you havo lgg ide~dfi~ what the ~RenlJal assessme~l~ sro hlg:k
to individual ~ owners.
one's400. Or ff it's SOO, I~youcanjnstplckscme beaclnm~ and go from it l assmne...Dick had
ssked ~.
57
City Council ~8 - August 23, 1993
Coun~woman ~~: So r~Rly cost and where MnDot sits.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay. So with that I think we'll get that information in the paper. We'll get a little moro
information back from ~ on the 26th and maybe we can put this back on tho administrative presen~n the
next time.
Ce
JOINT CITY COUNCIL/PA~ AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING! ~TI~Y
MANAGER.
Don Ashworth: You have the memorandum from Todd. If you have any questions, if you would ask those of
Todd. Otherwise I was wondering if I could get a potential date from City Council members for a potential
meeting date.
Councilman Senn: ...list of things to be discussed is, does that all entwine or somehow bring us to the
discussion too of the 1994 park acquisition and development, capital improvement program that's been
disseminated but I mean we haven't really technically received, looked s~ or done anything with at this point,
Don Ashworth: You could include that so you've got direct input from the commission but that will be
presented as part of your budget work sessions that will be coming up in the end of September, mc~ really
October-November. On your next City Council agenda you will have an item on there to set the public hearing
date for Truth in Taxation and you will also set the speci~ work sessions that you want to hold with each of the
sts/r members to hear what the Planning Depamnent's proposing to do. How many people Scott I-isrr needs.
What the Park and Recreation needs are. So you could it in either or both.
Mayor Chmlel: What date7 Let's see, Park and Rec will be meeting, their meeting is on the 28th7
Hoffman: Correct.
Mayor Chmiel: At 7:30.
Councilman Senn: The other option would be is if we have to have this special meeting. Kill two birds with
one stone and do it at the same time.
Mayor Chmiel: We could do it that day pmvidin8 we can get all of the Park and Recreation members there.
Councilman Mason: Yeah, that special meeting is going to be coming up pretty quickly couldn't if/
Mayor Chmie. l: Yes.
Councilman Senn: In 2 weeks or whatever he said.
Mayor Chmiel: It could even be before that too. We don't know. But I was thinking that if we were to, how
long does it normally take ns to go through the process of this? Is it an hour? Two hours? Todd.
Todd Hoffman: Two hours I would say minimum.
Mayor Chmiel: So if we would look at the 28th tentatively at 5:30. Would that be a problem?
58
City Conncfl Meeting - Angust 23, 1~3
Todd HofSnan: I can ask th~ commiadon ~ pr~cnt this ~ i~ they would lflre to m~t.
Councilman Mmou: 8 hours.
Todd Hof~nmn: 7 hours...
so we didn't feel rushed of having to finch_,.
day au e ?
Roger Knutson: Or next Monday's an option.
following oue is Labor Day so ~_hnt's not good. And then the following oue is a CCmncil meeC~ on the 13tic
going tO t~ likD 5 minlllgS light7
Councilwoman ~ So wc dou't get ~ood, is th~ ~
Mayor Chmi~l: Olmy, at what tin~?
~ Scbroen: 6:30.
Councilman Scan: I don't want to do 6:30. Btth~ do 5:30 or do 7:30.
Councilwoman Dockeadm~. 7::30.
Councilman Wing: I wou't bu there ~ I'm ~ ~ ~
Doa Ashworth: So you don't want dinner then7
Councilman Scrm: My pre~ is 5:30 but I'd much rath~ do that so it's over w~h by 7:30.
59
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Mayor Chmiel: How about 5:307 Is that a problem? Okay, let's go 5:30 to 7:30 and if it takes a little more,
that's fine. On September 20th. Richard said he's not going to be able to be here. He'll be amongst the clouds
unfortunately.
D. FIRE RELIEF ASSOCIATION sE'rTLEMENTt CITY MANAGER.
Don Ashworth: As I noted, and this is in tradition with how we have worked previous years but the Mayor and
I have been working with the Fire Depamnent for the last, at least 9 mouths if not a little longer. I can tell you
that relief association settlements in the past years have been very difficult issues for City Council members.
You've almost, you've had times where firemen have come in and basically stated they were going to turn in
their pa~ers because they didn't think th~ thc Council was being fair to them and they've been very heated. I
really congratulate the Fire Department in being open and listening to some of the comments from the Mayor,
from myself. I think that the proposed settlement is one that is fair to all parties. And I guess the biggest thing
and I can assure the City Council of this is that we can fund the benefit level that they're looking for without
creating property mx increases during the next 5 years. Secondarily, by agreeing to this form of settlement, we
will be putting ourself into a position, Dick please close your ears, where we will be able to negotiate conU~cts
very, very fairly. In other words, we're going to be in a strong financial position $ years from today and if they
come back in for a request in 5 years, we will be able to meet that type of request. We are not givin~ up every
penny we have today in lieu of being able to have dollars $ years from today. In fact it's just the opposite.
We're setting ourselves up for a very good financial position ~ years from today. We're not seeking your
approval this evening but Don and I wanted to make sure that the Council was kept abreast of what we were
doing and what kind of tentative sexdement is looking like and to allow you to identify information that you
would lik~ to have back in front of you before we brou~t this back for some type of final approval.
Mayor Chrniel: I think the basic settlement as we're looking at right now is going to be fair for the firemen as
well as it being fair for the city. And I think it's really sort of a real win/win kind of sio~on.
DOn Ashworth: I should note that the real difficult issue, and one flutt almost split the department itself was
whether or not we would provide an increase to those firemen that are already retired. And the way we really
settled that was is we have sufficient dollars to take and provide that benefit level to the retired firemen up
through 1998 but we want their agreement that this is not going to be an issue in 1999. That at that point in
time there will be two separate Iracks and that the current firemen will be looking at the current sources of
revenue that they have to pay for future benefit levels and those will not be looked at in a similar way for
existing retired firemen. And I think it was a fair settlement because it picks out a particol__m' cutoff time where
you're going to switch from one method to the other but you didn't have to totally do the battle today. People
are a little more willing to say oh, okay. Well I carl got in on this one and there's going to be a change in 5
years and they're willing to buy off on that. If we would have had to face that issue today and say, we're going
to choose one route or the other, I think we would have had a major confrontation and we would have been
forced to choose between a group of firemen sitting on this side of the room versus a group on that side of the
room, and I think we averted that type of a showdown.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: Yeah, and just to let you know DOn, I called an old associate who's an...consultant
and she thought that was fine. There are no legal constraints in that manner as far as grandfathering people in.
DOn Ashworth: Good.
Councilman Senn: The agreement you have now is what, a tentative agreement reached between you and7
6O
May~ ChmieA: Yeah, they have to have two diffenmt meetings on this.
COUll~lrmm Se, tilE ~ a ~l'~w poll or ~
Don A~hworth: Yenh, to see if they hnve g~ ~ ~ ~ ~ n~ to fld~ sottlome~
Don Ash~ Ri~t I would anli~ip~ coming b~TJ~ Io you myin~ w~ have I~WJv~ ~ wllh I~ tim
cl~Iw~ent Wonowwouldlii~to_m~ir~.andgeta~milsragreeimmlfroml~CityCoungil. Aski~youlovo~
at that meeting. Then~~go~~~~~ secmdary votswhe~fl~y wouldact-nnymtify
it and then it would come back ~re for FmA~ VOW by you.
~ Sonn: Okay. So tonisht's pur~l~ advis~ tmicaU~
IL JOINT POW~_~$ AQ_Rg~, COUNTY ROAD ~ON~ITRUCTION. CITY MANAGER,
Don Ashwmlh: I just want to maim sum that th~ City Coum~ -contlrm~s to b~ aware of the fact ~ ~'m
co.i_ mdng to pm,st~ tl~ goal of workin~ with the Counti~ to get som~ of ~ county roads
w~'r~ continuing to proceed in that F~ht _~_
Councilman Senn: ButDon, one question ifl could though l m_~m~ - I weat back and lookcd at somo of the
infcmtation that we had some months aso on this and the~'s m_.sior diffes~nces between thst and thtt I mean
DoaAshworth: Would it bo possibl~ for you and I ~ to m~ or havo lunch or som~fln~ Ifyoucould
show me what you had, I can e0t'plnin how it's ~ ~ee it really hagn't chnn_oed. What has ~ is our
abililytotak~mssmuchsswchadoutlinc& Som~ofthi, includ~lJ~irnornml m~Ttlll~J~l~~ TI~
$23 million versus th~ technical ag~nnmt bemem th~ two cities and I~ county is fur $16.5 mfl~_rm_ So
they're doing $7 millinn worth of msin~anco that they've shown, and ~ so, in ~ ~ year capilal
joint power agreement between Chsn~, Ctmska and the County. The A_n~e~ there is $165
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
under the TIF issue and the joint deal before, I mean the dollars have gone up. At least in the numbers X have
and I guess it just tm-m around and raises a question. I mcan here we hear our TIP dollars are going down.
Well then doe~'t our T]~ dollars on this go down like everything else? That's wha~ I'm not following.
Don Ashworth: Well there's, the next time you see thi, there is, it does show in there I think $400,000.00 per
year for '96 thru 2000 and I have asked our fiscal consultants to change that to $200,000.00, which I think is the
number that you're referring to that was in the previous report. And that should be modified to mak~ sure that
that stays similar to that previous report. The other monies though, and tho reason that they do not change is
those are all post 2000 dollars. Meaning after the year 2000. Those are dollars that we had no choice on. So in
other words, if City Council comes up and says oh, I'd like to do some ~tm projects. I see we have some
money in 2001. I'm sorry, but you can't spend it. The most that could occur with those dollars is we will
receive the full tax increment in the years 2001, 2 and 3. We can only use those dollars to pay debt that had
been incurred prior to 1989. The remaining dollars then have to go back to the city, county, school district.
What this agreement basically says is ff both the city and the county are agreeing to take those dollars and to
dedicalle them for county road construction. And so they're not. they never were in the forecast of avsJloble TIF
beca~ they never were TIF dollars that were available to you.
Councilman Senn: But those could be TIF dollars paying debt on other city projects, other than just roads?
Don Ashworth: If they were converted, true.
Councilman Senn: Altight. Well I'll sit down with you to sift it out Don.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, good.
COUNCIL PRF_,SENTATIONS:,
Councilman Wing: Charles is gone. Don, Market Boulevard Ires been the number one complaint I've had on
individusl~ consistently to the point where I went out and drove it and then subsequently have been startled more
and more where I come, it's going to be the major egress into our city. M~or, it's now our central entrance to
the business district. Comes to, it's 4 lanes down on Highway 5 and then it moves to 1 lane, 2 lanes and back
to 3 lanes. Then a turn lane. Then there's some yellow markers that say you shouldn't be here but why am I
here and then I can't, that road. It's another West 78th Street in thc mnldug and what I'm asking for
specifically, and this comes with considerable thought but I'm tired of the abuse I'm midqg. I want to know the
traffic counts for this road past and the future, especially with the retail coming in. But I want to know who
designed it. And I want to know what the desigu criteria was and I want to know who approved iL I want to
know the reason for the various lane shifts and if it's going to meet the needs of the city at the year 2000. I
think now is the time to bring it north from Highway 5 at the same level it is south of Highway $ and connect it
into West 78th Street. I guess the only real issue is the tracks by the bank. But to have a 4 lane road coming
into 2 lane road back to a4 lane or 3 lane road.
Councilwoman Dockondorf: You don't know what it is, that's the issue.
Don Ashworth: I approached Charles on this issue approximately a week ago, 2 weeks ago. He told me he
would go out in the field and do a study. I think I'm going to take and call Strgar. Strgar was not involved so I
don't know if it's BRW or Barton-Asclunan...
Councilman Wing: Okay but on like West 78th Street, somewhere I want the buck to stop and someone, I want
62
City Council Meeting - Augnst 23, 199'3
Don Ashwotth: Whnt I don't und~stnnd ~ is, TH 101 shonid hav~ ~ up in tl~ ~ nmre thnn
Marl~t becanse what's ~g ts with the signal in place, yon hnve two vehicles side by sid~ They both get
ahead of me. But it's the same issue on both of those fonds.
CouncilnmnWhg: Ingree. Iagree 100~ and somewhere we got sold a bill of goods and I just want to know
who it was became I wnnt to publicany emlmnms them, to the extent of my legal ability.
Mayor Chm~l: Okay. Cokm;,! Grove, Mte2ne2. Reconsidm~/on.
Councilman Mason: I would lik~ to maim a motion to reconsid~ the vo~ on CoL~ntnl Grove and thnt ff now ~
the time, I'H qlniq my reasons why. If not, we'll wait unffi nnother time.
Maycr Chmid: Whnt you'd like to do is put it on the next ngmdn?
Mason: That's cormcC Oh obviously w~ can't discuss it tonight.
Coundlmnn W'mg: Yeah, I'm gdn8 m second flint m~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I ~ ~ ~ ~Ws
phonecall. I phn on having the lake stndy gronps here. If we have to reinvent the wheel, we'ngetS0people
here _%on~ to talk nbout where this crime from, why it came from nnd I wnnt to ~ sure _t~nt stuff and the
dev~opmenta~nmnent~ Numberofboatsin'81. I wnnt to stick with that issue n~nd the lawyers made ttmt
clem'. 'I'nat was I~ only _lhing we wcm to discuss lind lh~ bo~ count I think ~ ~ f~ ill..If.
CoundlmnnSenm What'sthe, Imennenrli~Ihenrd~lonewinf~mmlimorother~-rm~ I
mean obviously we don't all hav~ that. What is it? What are we tnnrinE about~
Councilm~Senn: WelllmennI'dh'ketoknowwhntitisbcfomlvot~forareconsidm~onornoL Imeanm
me that's got sometmng to do wilh whether you vote for it,
Co~tcilm~n ~ I heard since I wns out of town when ~ ~g was held, a~ I'm not, ~Y I'm
not asking for recomideo~ion because it voted 8 hosts or 3 boats, quit~ honestly 5 yems from now nobody's
going to car~ whether it's 8 ~ or 3 bonls there. I hav~ hesrd ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~m
see what I cnn do to get to the bottom of it That's why I'm asking for n~onsideraflon.
Wing: And I'm going to sec, omi _ttmt motion.
Councilm~ ,qenn: But that's no new infornm__don l guess is whnt I'm just trying to get nt-- Again, I heardnew
63
City Council Meeting - August 23, 1993
Councilman Mason: Well I think that is new information. This is the first time in my brief tenure on Council
that I have heard some of the allegations, and they be false and if they are, so be it. If they're true, so be it. I
have never heard this kind of rumblings under the surface before and I, that is why I'm asking for
Councilman Wing: And I think the gentleman this evening pointed out the facts and the issues. He wants this
steered back to what our job was tonight. It wasn't to prove that they're different It was to follow the staff and
the lawyer's recommendation. We had one job to do to. Determine the number of boats and we never discussed
it. All we talked about was how different they are. And we had these agreements and we can't go on back
agreements and then we !_~ncl about affidavits. But we had ? affidavits that said there were 3 boats or less.
We had ~ affidavits that said there we~ 8 boats. Those affidavits were all gene~. One of those individ,~l,
called City Hall and said I signed it under duress and out of, to be a good neighbor. It's not true. It's not
accurate and I apologize for signing it. The other affidavits were personal and they stated, not to the best of my
reco~n. They stated there wea~ 3 boats or less. There was a complaint against the group in 1981 that the
boats there were there illegally and that was subsequently upheld and should have been removed so our job, I
want staff and Council to clearly make it clear that our job is not to discuss development agreements but to go
along with all the other ones and look at the number of boats. If you can show me tlw, m were 8 boats there, 8
boats go. ff the preponderance of proof is that there were 3 boats, it has to be recalled and your comments
about public use, and selv, ements I think are irrelevant and I want staff to clearly define that. Those aren't
issues we're dealing with. I don't know where you're coming from on these issues. You had no fights to even
discuss them or bring them up. And it shows you don't understand the histc~ of this and we'll have enough
people there that night to make sure you understand what happened in 1980, 81, 84, 86 and subsequent. $o
there's no question that there's people hero that do care and that the Council, the public hearings that occurred in
'91 and '92, that., the people aren't showing up because they're tired of trying to defend themselves and they're
counting on the Council to be consistent and follow thru on this and we weren't on this one. That's my feeling.
That's why I'm going to support Mike's recall plus the affidavits in at least one case were not signed in honesty.
Councilwoman Dockendorf: And that's my reason for reconsideration. Because I made my decision based on
the affidavits and to learn that they may have been forced, concerns me.
Councilman Senn: But Dick, one of the things that I have a real hard time in that...coping with and still have a
ham time coping with and that is that nobody can establish tho number of boats and even a CUP which was
issued in the same year that the ordinance was passed, doesn't address it. Now don't you find that really
unusual7 I mean wouldn't a CUP that came in place after the ordinance, under the ordinance specifw,~y
addressed as an issue, and yet there's nothing in their CLIP about it?
Councilman Wing: Where do we get 8 boats? What was the only evidence indicating 8 boats? The only
evidence that came out of 8 boats.
Councilman Senn: I don't know, the 100 foot dock. The affidavits. I don't know. A number of diff~t thin~$
came out. I mean things came out both ways on that.
Councilman Wing: But the lake study committee that was there and the city and the staff and all our reports
stated that that wasn't the case. That they did not have that number and the neighbors have subsequently stated
that wasn't the case.
64
City Conncil Meeting - August 23, 1993
this. Did you wnnt lo say something Jim7 Iknowyousmyedh~n~tM,]~ag.
Jim Andrews: ...issue itself or mth~ th~ ttmino for the recon~lerafion n~nd ~ would be flint I would nsk thnt
I don't think 2 weeks ~ ~ ~e f~ eith~ sid~ to n~l. I also mn~ ttm_t request being flint the
season's nearly over and giata de. lay of ~ a month is not going to lmve any i .m~__ on this yem**s use nor
next year's planned use.
Conncflmnn Mnson: I cermtnly don't have any trouble with that.
Coune~n~ Mason moved, Coun~lnmn Wing smmded flint tim ~ Council reeonskler the motion on the
Colonial Grove Non-Confmqnlng Reereaflonnl Beaehlot. All voted in favor, ext~pt ~ Senn who
opposed, and the motion e4tn4ed with a vote of 4 to L
Don Ashworth: Did I understand the ~ is supposed to call CHff ~7
Maycs~ ChmJel: ~ Admln
Mayer Chmiel: I mean excme me, lVln~
Doa Ashworttc Yeah nnd I'm, this ~ me thnt Scott had put through.
Don Ashworth: No, no. I mean who's ___~tng it~ I didn't see it in the pack~
Don Ashworth: Okay. I'H have Todd verify his repro1,
Coun~Scnn: Okay. Thesecond~is. 'lltcre was a lot of coffe~~ back in hcre regaPttng to the
65
City Council Mee~g - August 23, 1993
condemnation of Mithun and Beddor. Now the Beddor thing. I think this is...understand. That's the same issue
that relates to the Nez Perc~?
Roger Knutson: That's cone, ct.
Councilman Senn: Extension. Okay. What's the bfithun one?
Todd Gerhardt: The land out in front of City Hall on West 78th Street...
Councilman Senn: Oh, that's for the widening of the road you mean and stuff?
Todd Gerhardt Widening of the road and also the acquisition of the...
Councilman Senn: Okay. Last one. This letter from Cliff Aichinger of July 21st asking Paul to I guess
volunteer for another outside city thing which follows...I have a real objection to this because I mean, 6 months
ago we asked, you were gone so 5 months almost to this day we asked for an ordinanc~ to come out applying to
deal with the issues of auto related uses
and they're too busy to do it. Yet our staff is sitting here volunteering to go do all this stuff on work hours.
Mayor Chmiel: I don't know about that. I think that Ixoadens their aspects and broadeam the city's as well.
And I don't think that you know it's t_~4ng away that time. Well it is m~4ug away from cxrmin...but I think it
shows that our stuff is doing one bang up job because there aren't many people that they ask to serve on those
particular committ_~s. And I say, good for btm.
Councilman Senn: Well I think it's great Don but at the same time we've had two big discussions now on work
sessions about the l~riorifies of the Planning staff. And I thought we made it real clear from the Council's
standpoint what those priorities were to be and now a new priority is being added and the old priorities we set
haven't even been met yet. And I mean I see people shaking their head. I mean that's true and I mean all I'm
asking for is some acf~untability as to again, we'v~ ~ tbese things. ~ them to be done and we set the
priorities and yet they're kind of being ignored.
Mayor Chmiel: I still think it brings a cemfin amount of insight bagk to the city as well.
Councilman Senn: Well, and maybe they can do that and maybe they can use it as a filler in less busy times
but.
Mayor Chmiel: Don, do you have something?
Don Ashworth: You're talk-lng about this Urban Wetland Management Coalition?
Councilman Wing: It could be anything.
Councilman Senn: It could be anything. It's just, this is an example.
Don Ashworth: There's absolutely no question but that Chanhassen became a major phy~r as this whole
wetland regulations were going through the State legislature and I can honestly say that it was because of Paul's
efforts in making other communities aware of what it was that the legislature was doing, and they were doing it
66
City Council M~eting - August 23, 1993
Councilman Senn: I'm not going to disagree with anythinE you're saying. That doesn't nnfomma~y deal with
thoissue. I mean l really would liim to seo the issue dealt with in lmms of thnt- Imeanwo'droallyl~losee
some kind of nn UlXlnte on the stuff thnt we asked to be done dmt hn~n't been done stuff.
Councilmsn Senn: wen the longest example is for $ months those requests on the au~ uses. We aslaxl them in
and there's been absolntely, or at least I've seen no...uo~hin~ on them. Yes the~'s otlmm but ~h~'s an
Mayur Chmie, l: And macs a high l~mq~y as well?
~Senn: wen the Council directed that it was. I me~n l can pull the Mtnu~s if you want me m and
show ~ ~ we directed it to be a high ~ and Ix~d to g~t it done...
MayurChmiel: Doo't have to get excil~L Okay,~I~am~~~
Com~l~um Mason moved, ~ ~~ ~ m ad, mm t~e ~ An vo~ in
~avor and tl~ motion ~ The meetl~ wss ~l~mn'ued at 11:40 pan.
Submitted by Don Ashworth
Oty Manas~
67