Aug-22-06-prc
PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 22, 2006
Chairman Stolar called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Glenn Stolar, Jack Spizale, Jeff Daniel, Anne Murphy, Steve
Scharfenberg, Tom Kelly and Paula Atkins
MEMBERS ABSENT:
None.
STAFF PRESENT:
Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation
Superintendent
APPROVAL OF AGENDA:Daniel moved, Kelly seconded to approve the agenda,
amended to add discussion of the joint meeting with City Council on September 14, 2006
at 7:15 p.m.. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS:
None.
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS:
None.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:Daniel moved, Murphy seconded to approve the verbatim
and summary minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission as presented. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
2007 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL
IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM (CIP).
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Stolar and members of the commission. Tonight we're not only
going to take a look at 2007, but then 2007 through 2011 for the 5 year CIP. We use the 5 year
CIP as a guide and obviously each year we move forward we just extend it out one year. I've
written some narrative as a part of this conversation and that's generally provides you some kind
of look inside the comprehensive planning process that the city gets involved with for parks and
trail planning. It's a goal, what I really want you to think about tonight is, and obviously a
budget or a CIP and a variety of projects with a variety of numbers attached to them, but I want
you to think about what type of recommendation you want for the City Council. What type of
direction you want to recommend they move into. Not just next year but for the 5 years.
Upcoming 5 years. Using approximately $400,000 per year for a total of $2 million dollars in
investment. And so as 7 commissioners making recommendations regarding park and trail
improvement, you have $2 million dollars at least at your disposal for a recommendation over
the next 5 years to make some things happen with our community and continue to expand our
park and trail system. That's fairly significant. It's not as significant as say a referendum…but
on an annual basis for a city our size, many cities would really enjoy to have that kind of a
capital improvement program. There's a variety of bullets. I don't think I'll read them but they're
all in the CIP. They talk about generally the things we do on a daily basis and encourage
Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
cooperative effort between local school systems and the city in acquisition, development and the
usage of recreational lands and facilities. We've done on nearly, well on all the schools that we
have in our community, and we'll continue to do that as the high school moves in. So those are
some strategies that, policies to accomplish the goals from, well let's read it out loud. The goal
of managing a successful park and trail CIP is to provide recreational facilities and open space
areas that reasonably meet the outdoor recreation needs of the community's residents and protect
environmentally sensitive areas. That's always been our task is to reasonably meet the
expectations of our citizens. In the back page I talk about the big picture in the world of
comprehensive park and trail planning, and what you need first is the land and/or right-of-ways
necessary to establish a park and trail system. For the most part we have that land in place and
those right-of-ways for trails. We're having a look at the new high school that's coming to town
and from what we can estimate now, we were hoping that that new high school would be a
positive generator of additional capacity in outdoor recreational facilities, and what we think may
end up happening is it may actually be a negative because it does not have the available land on
the campus to fulfill all their needs as a high school for a JV/Varsity athletics, and so as they
come to town, if that facility is built, and bring those students along with, they'll be looking for
additional capacity or access to fields such as Lake Susan, Bandimere, Lake Ann, which are
already full with our ongoing activities and so it's going to be something that we can sense right
now is some net loss and so should we be looking for an additional facility for athletic fields
before we're all said and done as a community. It's probably, likely almost the last school that
will be built…and if we acquire something else to add more fields or athletic space, it would
likely be the last time that happens too in our community. Those are significant things in a city's
development. We have 740 acres of park today. That's 5% of our total area. 54 miles of trails.
Additional 22 miles of sidewalks, so we have a good base, but what do you want to see into the
future? As we focused on playgrounds and safety over the last 2 or 3 years, that was very
important to the commission. We have aging playgrounds and I think you've seen the result of
those investments. You have some, a recommendation that was presented to you about, or for
2007 attached in your packet. It totals $405,000. It includes items such as the Arboretum
Business Park trail, $190,000. Again I won't go all through those right at this time. I want to
hear from the commission but at some point this evening I will, just for your benefit, when Chair
Stolar thinks it's appropriate, go through the laundry list of items that are out there. Each of
these parks has a capital plan. A master plan and I know some of you are very familiar with
some of our parks. Some of you are familiar, somewhat familiar with all our parks but we have
34 sites that we're trying to reach on an annual basis to maintain and improve. Those are
significant numbers and if you want to do one or two things at each one of those sites, it doesn't
take long to start to eat away at the dollars. In addition we have a variety of things that we must
do that are included in development contracts with developers. So as they come to town and
they plat these properties, the Degler farm. The Luigi Bernardi farm. The Jeurissen farm and
they come in, Town & Country, Rottlund Homes, when they get their plat or a subdivision
approval, we go, we enter into a development contract with them. They have to perform certain
things and we have to perform certain things and as a part of that development contract we've
told at least 3 of those folks that we're going to build trails, or pay for trails that they're going to
build. So those are marks on your ledger for future dates that you're going to have to, those bills
are going to come to you and we'll have to pay those bills so we have to insert those, and we'll do
that tonight. We don't have exact estimates. We'll set some place holders but there are at least 3
and when I think about it, possibly 4 of those major trail segments coming up. These are not
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
small investments. We're talking a couple hundred thousand dollars each. The one with the
bridge is going to be a couple hundred thousand dollars for a trail and $150,000 for a bridge so
that will take a single year's investment to make that part of our comprehensive trail plan happen.
So with that I'd like to hear from, some ideas from the commission. Hear from the audience and
then we'll get into the details of the CIP process.
Stolar: Okay, great. We're going to see if there's any urgent commission member questions
before we start it and then I'll invite Todd to come up and speak. Anything before Todd speaks?
Okay. Todd, you wanted to address us on this topic?
Todd Neils: Thank you Chair Stolar. Once again my name is Todd Neils. I'm the President of
the Little League here in Chanhassen, serving all of District 112. Chanhassen, Chaska and
Victoria. For fear of you being tired of seeing my face all the time, I've also brought a guest with
me. Ann Voliss who is the Secretary of the Little League and many of you know was
spearheaded our effort to win the State championship in softball and will speak a little bit about
that this year. And I give her full credit for that. I want to start by thanking the commission on
the expenditure that they made this year for Lake Ann Park. I've talked to Mr. Hoffman on
several occasions over the last several months, and as recently as last week to look at the dugouts
that are being put in I believe at the end of this month. The new trail that was put in to
accommodate foot traffic and so on and so forth through the park. So again I'd like to thank you
all for that additional expenditure to the CIP. In listening to many of Dr. Jennings presentations
over the last several months about the pending school referendum, it's become quite clear that
this community is going to grow quite large very fast with the addition of the 312 project that is
bisecting our community and the new high school. We're going to see, as we stated about a year
and a half ago, a tremendous need for additional field space. Because of that reason I would
implore the commission to seek additional land in the community for additional large park
spaces such as Lake Ann and Bandimere that can accommodate a, the local associations as we
try and bridge the new high school when it's built. And if it's built. And I do say hopefully it
will be built. So I would be, myself also speaking to Dr. Jennings as well as the City Council or
members of the City Council when given the opportunity, expressing our interest in the city's
participation in additional land purchases. Having said all that, I'd like to pass it over to Ann
who has some conversation she'd like to have with the commission about some additional
improvements that maybe we could see in the future to improve our park space. One second
Ann. One thing I would like to make a request about is, I know that in 2008 there's a CIP item
for $300,000 for lighting for Lake Ann. If there's any way, because of the growth in our program
and other associations, if there's any way to move that into the earlier part of the 2008 year so
that we can take full advantage of the new lighting at the space, that would be much appreciated
as well. Here's Ann Voliss. Thanks.
Ann Voliss: Thanks Todd and thanks commission and Mr. Hoffman. I should, for entertainment
value, a picture of our state champions. It was a thrill to play that tournament. We played it at
Lake Ann and it was a real show off time for us for that facility so…thanks to you and to the
people in front of you who built that great park. It was very nice and a great place to host a
tournament. As I appreciate the impact that this year's improvements will have and the lights in
'08, it's a nice moment to reflect on how our field space scheduling this year left us 3 open spots
for 60 teams to reschedule a game if there was a rain out or a make up game need, something
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
like that, so the lights are going to have a tremendous impact and I'll echo your thoughts about
the earlier in '08 that is feasible to complete, the bigger we can expand, the flexibility of that field
use. Softball in particular has demonstrated a 10% growth. Little League softball by familiarity
is not the program of choice in Minnesota, so when I look forward a couple years, this is going to
be fun and huge in impacting and stress that field schedule even more so I'll echo his thoughts
are appreciate your consideration of is there anywhere that we could build another set of fields.
Thinking a little more realistically, I appreciate Todd your consideration of, and Jerry you too, of
looking at Bluff Creek facilities a little bit, and I have what I hope are some light expenditures.
Just to bullet point and add to your list of considerations. On the super low end, managing who
plays at Field 1 and Field 2 would be a solution for us. If a team that is hitting, I'll use baseball
an example. 11 year old baseball now becomes a really fun and aggressive game and balls are
flying everywhere, and from a safety issue they fly into the playground at Bluff Creek if they're
playing on 1, so some small micro management like that would be very helpful and I appreciate
recording that. On an expenditure scale, could we consider some fence improvements there so
that we didn't have that scheduling constraint and could just place anybody there with more
flexibility, that would be my first bullet point. I'm telling you about backstop extensions and
dugout extensions that would protect balls from flying outside the field. If I look at that Bluff
Creek facility as a possible venue for more play and enhanced play, like what we've had the
privilege of at Lake Ann, then I start thinking about things like is a, respecting that it's a multi
use facility, is there room for one more field there? And I appreciate consideration of what the
soccer need and Lacrosse need, etc, etc, but is there space to build one more field? Even if it was
a junior sized field where not everyone could play but a portion of our registrants could play.
Batting cages. We have batting cages at Bandimere and at Lake Ann. Lake Ann is not available
specifically to the softball program without some purchasing of an attachment, but appreciate a
look at batting cages. That's a huge help to that program. And from there then the stuff gets fun.
I wish we had beautiful trees at Bluff Creek like we do at Lake Ann, and I wish we had enhanced
fan space. The recommendation as you host a state tournament for Little League or dream of
hosting the next level, regionals, is you need to have seating for at least 2,000 people and that
keeps going up from there. 5,000, etc.. The Twin Cities is a natural hub for people to come to
and it would be terrific to put Chanhassen on that list of options for regional play, but we need
fan space. And I'm going to quit there. We're getting kind of dreamy. But I hope I started small
with some good things that you can, including your considerations of the many, many ideas.
Stolar: Any questions for Ann or Todd?
Atkins: Could you host tournament games at Bluff Creek as well as Lake Ann?
Ann Voliss: Not state tournament. We had in-house league tournament play there. So just our
Chanhassen group of about 250 kids. The flashy fun stuff, state tournament, that was what we
hosted at Lake Ann.
Atkins: How many fields are at Bluff Creek?
Ann Voliss: There's 5. There's 5, and that's a beautiful open space too.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Daniel: So Ann could you, with the fence improvements at Bluff, what were you specifically,
what are you talking about?
Ann Voliss: I speak just to the issue. I apologize, I'm not a fence expert but I'll speak to what
the problem is…and draw the obvious conclusion. If you are at Field 1, which is over by the
playground, the school's playground, and are hitting foul balls as a batter, they will land on Field
2. They're land on the playground. So right now the backstop, last pitch of protected fencing,
that could be enhanced. I've seen fields where's a lot bigger structure there. And then at the
dugout, there may be an opportunity there to extend those fences higher so that you really are
playing in a cage. I would not recommend that for other than 1 and 2. Fields 3, 4 and 5 have
some disbursement space and it's not an issue but it's the nature and placement of 1 and 2.
Daniel: Okay.
Stolar: Anyone else?
Murphy: When you mentioned junior sized fields, is that something that we have at any parks
right now or?
Ann Voliss: Your neighborhood parks, Meadow Green are youth sized fields that are in close
proximity to each other, but the kind of players that are naturally placed there, that works
beautifully because they're not hitting 200 foot bombers and that's a certain age group. I will say
that, I've never heard you guys restrict that but there's just kind of a natural 5 year old, 6 year
olds, no more than 8 year olds on those neighborhood parks. And it would, yeah it would be
reasonable to just choose again with the scheduling constraints a buddy, 2 fields together and put
a constraint on who can play there.
Kelly: How about City Center? Is that restricted to age? I know I only saw T-ball and coach
pitched at City Center but are those, you know can you play 9-10 on those fields?
Todd Neils: There was also machine pitch…
Kelly: There was machine pitch there too? Okay.
Todd Neils: But I think what we're referring to is you look at the space at the Bluff Creek
facility, it's effectively kitty corner to Field 4. If you put another diamond in that area, you may
have limited cross over but it's not likely that that's additionally if there's space along 5, adjacent
to 5.
Daniel: On Coulter Boulevard?
Todd Neils: Right. Again you'll have, you'll have, you pigeon hole yourself to the extent that
you only have 5 through 8 year olds, but really that's what we're using the facility for anyway.
We don't anticipate necessarily using it for older children that can hit into the swamp or into
another field endangering other children.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Ann Voliss: And on the softball side, there's a point where the game changes to, it's an
infielder's game so there's more flexibility to put older softball players on fields that are tighter in
proximity to each other. So we'd have more room.
Murphy: Were there a shortage of fields for those junior players on, I know softball players right
now or is it more for the older kids? The problem really with the older kids?
Ann Voliss: Let me pause before I answer that. Some of our largest groups are, players are at 7
and 8 years old and it's really rewarding because they're heard about us and then we pull them in
and hope to keep them forever before they change their mind about wanting to play. I would
suggest that there is stress all the way through the system because, and I, I just have 3 years of
experience with this but I have watched in those 3 years the 8 year old players have hung around.
So there's this bubble of kids going through that is too big. So immediately it's a 7, 8, and 9 year
old problem, but in softball I have more players at 11-12 than I do at 7-8. So that's probably an
answer that says eventually it's a non-issue and we're very close to that. It's a non-issue. It's
everybody. Fair to say that at baseball, huge bubble at 7-8 and there's a lot of history with that
but the7-8 boys.
Todd Neils: Yeah, again it's extensive at 9 year olds as well, so our 9-10 year old program will
expand again this year. Anticipating that it will again at the 11-12 year old program 2 years from
now, so really across all age groups and continue to see…from the YMCA program I think that
you co-manage in addition to our own in-house program. So we're seeing a large bubble,
through those large pipelines that it goes through.
Ann Voliss: Okay, I'm supposed to talk about one more thing, but it's not part of the CIP. I
should have spoken at the visitor presentation. Do you mind if I take a 10 second detour? In
appreciation for the state tournament play, could you offer me some direction about how to ask
for a sign that says home of the 2006 Little League Softball State Champions? Is that a
reasonable request to this group or should I be redirected to someone else?
Hoffman: Do you want to put it on the edge of town or?
Ann Voliss: You know, there's a nice little Lake Ann Park. There's a Chanhassen city sign.
Daniel: Was the tournament won at Lake Ann?
Ann Voliss: It was won at Lake Ann.
Daniel: We really have, because we don't have a school system, or I don't think anything that I
remember in Little League…with a state champions, is that correct?
Hoffman: I don't know.
Daniel: Yeah, we don't know… And I would say if there's something like that, which would
certainly be a nice nod, I'd have to say at Lake Ann probably appropriate.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Ann Voliss: I will, some optimistic caution. I think this will be a long string so pick a spot with
room for more and I appreciate you just considering it. That would be really fun but it would be
precedent setting so.
Hoffman: Thanks Ann.
Ann Voliss: Thank you.
Stolar: To kind of, on the sign issue, do you guys want to just talk with her and see what ideas
you can come up with? Okay. Is that okay with the commission? CIP comments. Start with
Anne.
Murphy: I'm still wondering about the, well the $30,000 that we had earmarked for the off leash
dog area we took off because, or we took out of the budget, right? Because we don't know where
we are with Carver right now? Or it's just on hold.
Hoffman: No, it's still there for this year. We changed out $20,000 of it for trails.
Stolar: 20 of the 50,000.
Murphy: 20 of 50 and we still have 30 earmarked? Okay.
Hoffman: Correct.
Stolar: But if they don't spend it this year.
Hoffman: It will have to be pushed out.
Stolar: It will have to be pushed out, right.
Hoffman: If you want to keep it.
Daniel: That's at Minnewashta right?
Hoffman: (Yes).
Stolar: Jack.
Spizale: The bill's coming due for the trails of these new neighborhoods, what's the dating on
that and how will that fit in with that budget?
Hoffman: Okay, let's go over each one. The timing is not exact but you can start to understand a
little bit as you watch the grading taking place in that area of town. The Preserve is the Gayle
and Lois farm. It includes significant section of trail from Lyman Boulevard down to the new
road which is being constructed right now, and it also includes a bridge, and that will most likely
occur in, right around 2008-2009. So if you pencil out those two dates. And I don't have an
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
estimate on the trail but I think you're safe to say that in total you're probably up around
$400,000 for that improvement.
Kelly: I'm sorry, that goes pretty from Audubon all the way down to close to 101 on Lyman? It
will cross over the new Lyman.
Hoffman: It goes from Lyman Boulevard at Audubon, south along the creek to the new what is
called the east/west collector road. And then just a little bit beyond. So it's all south of Lyman,
and that includes a bridge going up and over the creek in that area. There's also another trail
called the Liberty at Creekside trail which picks up at that point, and this is the Jeurissen farm
and Liberty at Creekside is by Town & Country Homes. It takes, it leaves off where the
Preserve, or it starts up where the Preserve leaves off. It travels south and then back east and to
the bridge at Highway 212. And then it will continue on to the bridge at a future point. So this
is, these are the final links of the Bluff Creek trail that is in place today from Lyman Boulevard
north to Highway 41. And that trail again is probably around 2009 by the time we get it built.
They get it built and they turn in a bill, and that's probably half of that cost. $200,000. Those are
those two. Then we have the Rice Marsh Lake Park trail, as a part of 212 in Eden Prairie you
saw along Bearpath and the new Lakeside development. They're building a trail. It will go
through an underpass that is being constructed today. You can go out there and see it if you want
to take a field trip and drive into the old apartments and then drive through the back and you can
walk up on the berm of Highway 212 and you look to your right and you'll see the underpass.
When that comes north, or when that gets built, we need to pick up our section of trail and come
all the way around Rice Marsh and then connect up. This is not in the development contract but
it's just one of those things where you're going to have this underpass, this trail leading to it and
no trail is going either east or west. West into Chanhassen or east into Eden Prairie so there's
going to be some pressure to have that built.
Daniel: Is that on the east side of Rice Marsh, as you come around up the…trail that comes to an
abrupt end?
Hoffman: Yep.
Daniel: And then it picks up with the, it's blank for about 100 feet and then.
Hoffman: Then it stops so…
Daniel: …okay then it goes up to, have you seen or have you talked to Eden Prairie's park and
do they have to stay rounding the lake? ….worked out yet.
Hoffman: And then you'll go up down, then back down through that park that's over there in the
Eden Prairie side. And on our side we'll go all the way around the south and the west side of
Rice Marsh and connect up to the trail that is currently at Mission Hills. So probably again 2009.
Perhaps 2010 and probably in that upper $300,000, $350,000 range. Pioneer Pass Park is a park
that is coming on line as a part of the 2005 MUSA area. It's on the Sever Peterson farm. It's the
4 acre park. The deal is not yet completely done. The original developer that came before the
city and the owner split, parted ways. There's a second developer looking at acquiring that
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
property. The entire property and platting the homes. When they do that, we're going to have a
4 acre park in the middle of an urbanizing area with probably some 4,000 residents moving in
over the next 5 years and they're going to be looking at us to finish that park. 4 acre park. You
can throw anywhere from $100 to $300,000 at it and you can do that probably in a 2009-2010
area.
Stolar: Does that include the cost of the land?
Hoffman: The land is, no cost for the land. It will be for the facilities.
Stolar: Okay.
Hoffman: So you're going to get balled up coming around 2009 with a lot of fun things that need
to get done. Those are the major areas that are on the horizon. That are known to date and then
beyond that, I can take some time and start talking about individual improvements. And to keep
it somewhat focused, why don't we just take a look at what we've brought forward for next year.
Stolar: Can I say real quick Todd? So our current balance projected at the end of this year is
what? The fund.
Hoffman: Current park dedication balance?
Stolar: Yeah.
Hoffman: Don't have that for you. Don't know.
Stolar: Do we know what it was at the beginning of the year?
Hoffman: I don't know here. I don't have that.
Stolar: Can we get that? Again it's easier for me to even make any of these decisions to know
here's our balance. Here's our expected revenues and here's our expenditures. Because that way
we can look at the balance, because you're talking about you know another 8, 750 in 2009 for
example. But if we expect to get $600,000 in and we have a balance of $2 million, that's a lot
different than we expect $400,000 in and we have a balance of $300,000. It makes a different
statement on what we do. Now I understand we're going to talk a little bit different later, but also
that helps.
Hoffman: Correct. Okay. The 2007 CIP that was originally before you was 405. That was off
of the old 5 year CIP. The recommending the deletion of Arboretum Park, Business Park trail
for $190,000 then adding the following items. Lake Ann Parkview picnic shelter at $95,000.
Power Hill Park trail at $75,000. Tennis court repair and that will repair the remaining course
that we have in town. We finished half of them this year at $45,000. And then a contribution to
the middle school, Minnetonka Middle School West tennis court. They're having a, trying to put
together an initiative to build 6 additional courts out at that facility for $30,000 contributions.
You add all those things up, it's $460,000 with the inclusion of the, other items that are on the
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
back page. So if you go to page 2. So there's a start for 2007. And then to continue on, you just
flip the page open and you look at 2008, 2009, 2010 and then 2011 is blank. Getting back to
Glenn's question, the fund is somewhat fluid and it's not short of cash right now. The $400,000
is a somewhat, well mildly conservative but still aggressive CIP. You always want to plan for
the future. There's going to be some things that come in there and we're going to take a hit on, so
yes, knowing the exact balance at this point might satisfy some curiosities but if we're going to
set forth a $400,000 level per year, then you kind of know what basis we're starting from.
Obviously at some point park dedication dollars are going to dry up and it's really not our goal to
spend them all today. It's our goal to have planned manage growth in our park facility and at
some point when those dollars are said and done, our hope is that we're pretty well fully
developed in our parks and trail system and then you're just left with management at that point.
Or maintenance.
Spizale: So Todd basically with this budget we're going to be basically done with the
playground, updating the playground equipment. So we're done with that, basically done with
that phase.
Hoffman: For the most part. For the oldest playgrounds, yep.
Spizale: It almost seems like with all these trails and expansions, one of our natural goals would
be, this is obviously just going to happen. One of the natural goals would be to, you know finish
the trails and expanding the trails, for one. It just seems like something that will be happening in
the next 2 to 3 years.
Daniel: Yeah, that's what CIP also, being…guess as well, there's some discussion on acquisition
of land for the expansion of parks beyond what we are getting out of our existing projects in
place.
Spizale: Todd what about that one piece of land we bought south of 212, west of 101? Is that
just kind of a natural piece?
Hoffman: It was purchased on the premise of the open space preservation. It's 32 acres of oak
woods. You know the passive park.
Spizale: Okay. That's what it always will be, right?
Hoffman: We hope so.
Daniel: Is there an access point to it?
Hoffman: Not yet. There will be when, that side of Highway 212 is the 2010 MUSA,
Metropolitan Urban Service Area. So 2010 will come and there'll be streets and neighborhoods
built back there so.
Spizale: Should there be a piece of land bought in that area for baseball parks and different
things?
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Hoffman: Well you have Bandimere right across the street and there's limited land left.
Something to keep in mind that the annual CIP is probably not the place to go to to buy land.
You're going to have to find, with the help of the council, some other funding source to take on a
piece of land at this time. Land is not as cheap as it used to be. It's going to be a significant
expenditure to make that happen, if the community wants to make that happen. We've gotten
some very good deals up to this point and now with land at $100,000 to $200,000 per acre, it's
going to take some significant bill, money that this fund does not have.
Stolar: Steve.
Hoffman: Unless you want to do nothing for the next 5 years and put all $2 million into land.
You can try that tact.
Scharfenberg: Todd, with respect to the trail systems that you talked about coming on in 2008-
2009. Am I wrong in that in looking at that and allocating dollars, if we're allocating something
in the neighborhood of $400,000 every year, that we're using up the majority of that money
buying trails? Or building trails.
Hoffman: Correct. Correct, you're not wrong.
Scharfenberg: Okay. So the other things that we have on here, I know the warming house and
stuff we've talked about in the past and, but are we talking about deleting some of those items?
Hoffman: Absolutely.
Scharfenberg: Okay. Projects, and especially a 5 year CIP are…take on additional
responsibilities and so we're going to be moving these things around. That's our job to do that.
Stolar: Paula.
Atkins: Yeah I don't, for instance the Minnetonka Middle School West tennis court project
contribution, I don't believe I saw that before tonight, right? So there's a few things on here that
don't look familiar to me from last time I looked at this.
Daniel: That's something that just came up over the last, since the last meeting.
Atkins: Yeah, okay. We should probably talk about moving the lights up. The lighting for the
fields up maybe. And how do we go about recommending that we acquire some more land? Do
we make a recommendation to the City Council?
Hoffman: Someone makes the motion and somebody seconds it and they vote.
Stolar: What I'd like to do is defer that because we have a joint meeting with City Council in
September and I'd like to, if I may, place that discussion. Land acquisition will be one of the
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
topics. Yeah, I think we will still talk about something and maybe make a motion, but let's put it
under that heading.
Kelly: But to Paula's point, is it possible to build lights prior to the 2008 Little League season
out at Lake Ann?
Hoffman: If you want to put it in the 2007 budget.
Kelly: But it can't stay in the 2008 budget and lights can't be built the first half of the year? Is
the only way lights can be available in 2008 is to actually move the $300,000 to 2007?
Hoffman: Correct.
Stolar: I'm sorry Paula, it seemed like you had another question.
Atkins: No, I was going to talk about, I just was looking at the Roundhouse Park tennis court
just because I know we had some interest in that. Some letters. We heard from some people.
Was that approved? I don't remember if it was. Because we've had a lot of discussion about
building new tennis courts in the last couple years.
Hoffman: Right now it's in 2009 on the $100,000.
Atkins: So that's pretty far ahead.
Kelly: …what did the Arboretum trail, what was that going to connect from and to?
Hoffman: It connects from where the Lifetime Fitness trail stops south of the hotel. The
Holiday Inn Express. And then it goes through the oak trees and then back around to the
neighborhood that comes in off of the south side of that wetland, so that trail, there's 100 acres of
property there. The trail is in 4 quarters and this is the southwest quarter of the trail to wrap it
around and make the whole circle. You remember the name of that neighborhood?
Ruegemer: Isn't it Trotters Ridge?
Hoffman: That's right, Trotters Ridge development.
Kelly: Right across and off of Galpin?
Hoffman: Galpin.
Kelly: Because right now the trail I hit, you got up to Holiday Inn. It goes down and you cross
Coulter and then the trail pops out right on Galpin.
Hoffman: Yep.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Kelly: And you're saying now it would go south, a little bit more south on Galpin and then kind
of go through.
Hoffman: Have you ever taken that dead end trail back in Trotters Ridge?
Kelly: No, because it's dead end. I do know what you're talking about.
Hoffman: Once the dead end, it will start there and pick up and go over.
Kelly: Alright. Alright.
Hoffman: And we're waiting, again that's a development contract driven improvement. We're
waiting for that final lot to develop which is Lot 12. When they have a buyer, then they need to
build our section of trail and we need to pay for it.
Kelly: Alright.
Stolar: So that most likely wouldn't be before 2009?
Hoffman: Yeah it's just, you know it could happen tomorrow. It's just one of those things we
just keep kind of pushing it off. We always try to keep it out there. Just in a little shadow area.
A couple years out because if somebody buys it, it will take a while for them to build it and get
the project done and…
Kelly: And the 101 north trail, that pretty much just goes from Pleasant View to.
Hoffman: Minnetonka/Eden Prairie.
Kelly: Okay. It's a pretty short.
Hoffman: Short. About a final, it's a missing link.
Kelly: Right, right. Yep.
Daniel: That goes out to Vinehill, correct? Or as a wrap around?
Ruegemer: Is it Vinehill or Town Line?
Daniel: Oh Town Line. Town Line then turns, curves into Vinehill.
Kelly: I mean my only concern with the lights is, I mean I think adding lights essentially adds 4
fields and I would just hate to see the lights get pushed, if, pushed out because of these new trails
and they'd be coming in 2009 because that's such a big ticket item. If those bills come back and
say the lights getting pushed out so I don't know. But I don't know if there's any room to move.
Yeah I agree with, it'd kind of be great to have those lights available for play 2008 and you said
the only way we can do that is to have it in the 2007 budget. I just don't know if there's, but
13
Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
st
that's the concern I have. It'd be nice, it'd be nice to have those lights to turn on May 1, 2008
for Little League play if possible.
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Hoffman: If you keep them in 2008, they'll be turned on May 1, 2009. Or for fall.
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Ruegemer: Or October 1.
Kelly: Is it just how budget works that, or is it just that you can't physically put lights in the
ground in February and March?
Hoffman: It's the construction season. It's a process. To have a bid opening and get the lights in
and done by the time it's not, it wouldn't be impossible but… And it's something you find on an
annual basis. Improvements that were budgeted in 2000, for 2007 typically come available for
the 2008 season because it's just, you're working through a construction season. You're
wrapping things up and I think most of you have been around to see that. It's playgrounds.
…you're lucky to get them in by August and get a little bit of use…for next spring. For ballfield
improvements, that's even more evident because their season quits in the middle of summer.
Daniel: Say Todd for Sugarbush Park, is that a toddler playground?
Hoffman: All the additions would be toddler playgrounds.
Daniel: Okay.
Hoffman: Typically neighborhoods select the older kids for their first improvement and then the
second improvement is for the younger kids. To frame your conversation even tighter tonight,
really what you need to, obviously you need to agree on a 2007 recommendation that needs to go
to the Finance Director tomorrow, and then up to the City Council. For 2008 and beyond, you
can start talking to each other and letting me know some of your values and what, obviously you
support these development contracts that we have, and then I can go forward and put that down
on paper. I tend not to do that without a conversation at the commission level because if I go
ahead and just write it out, then the commission says it looks great. Done deal and conversation
seems to be somewhat limited so, I purposely don't do that before we have a conversation here to
talk about where you want to place the emphasis. Hear from people from the community and
then move forward.
Stolar: Todd, just a couple other quick questions. The lights. I know I've asked this before. Do
we have those by for 2 fields right? Or 3?
Hoffman: Lights?
Stolar: Yeah. I mean sorry, 2 parks.
Hoffman: Right now they're, it's just 4 fields. It could be any parks. Bandimere and Lake Ann
or Lake Ann or just Bandimere. It's not been designated.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Stolar: So again, and partly to the point you guys were making. If we can even pull 2 fields
forward that are economic to do so let's say the 2 fields at Bandimere. So we talked about before
how you've got to group them together. You don't want to sit here and do you know one at Lake
Ann and one there and then you have to go to the next year and do the same thing. But would 2
be, you know splitting that into 2 and just get 2 fields done in 2007 be a logical cut off.
Hoffman: Sure. We only have 3 lit fields in the community. We lit one individually in about
1987, and we lit the other two at Lake Ann in approximately '95.
Stolar: And from your perspective, Todd Neils, do you feel that you know, would that help or is
that, you know if we add a couple more fields lit in a particular area.
Todd Neils: No…I guess I've got to get up there. I think that it would go a long way in helping
the growth as we see it in the program. You know we're going to see major changes internally in
our program over the next several years. To be more competitive on a regional level, both in
baseball and softball. To add lights will give us just additional framework for that. So if there's
any way you can light into it, as you're suggesting, by doing half and half, you know that's
definitely we think what a great solution. But that's up to the commission to decide.
Stolar: Okay, thank you. And then, I think that was it on the CIP for 2007. Any other questions
on that?
Murphy: I have one more quick question on the funding for the off leash dog area. If they don't
begin construction on that in 2007, when does that money become lost out of that?
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Hoffman: December 31.
Murphy: Of 2007?
Hoffman: (Yes).
Murphy: Okay. So not this year, next year. Okay.
Hoffman: This year.
Murphy: This year?
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Stolar: December 31, 2006.
Hoffman: Excuse me, yes. This year.
Stolar: When you say it becomes lost, we can always add. First of all the money doesn't go
away because it sits there in the CIP fund, correct?
Hoffman: The item goes away.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Stolar: The item goes away and we can always add it at another time.
Murphy: But what would be the, I guess the condition that would make it, just that Carver isn't
going to begin the construction or there's no other fund so we're not going to, I mean what, how
would we know that it's going to fall off the budget I guess? Just the fact that nothing's
happening with it? But what if they say sometime in 2007 we're going to start?
Hoffman: Then you're going to have to make a decision to make a recommendation to the
council to hold that money over.
Murphy: Okay.
Stolar: So what I'd like to do, if there's no objection, why don't we just real quick, we have a
recommendation in front of us which is the modified 2007 CIP. For the 460. And I guess I
would look to see, is there, are there any proposed changes to that before we take a motion?
Kelly: I wouldn't, I do have, I wouldn't mind seeing at least the $150,000 of the athletic fields go
into 2007 and if we need to offset that cost, moving Highway 101 to 2008. The thought there is
that it is a small piece of trail. We've gone so long without a trail on 101 as it is and there, I just
think that, I don't know, that would be my preference. To move 2 fields to 2007. If we need to
offset the cost, maybe push out 101 north trail a year. Or potentially put 3 totlots.
Stolar: Okay does anyone, tonight I'm going to leave this a little bit more informal. I tend to
agree with Tom and would like to see that also and I would push potentially, yeah it depends on
if we want to try and keep it under 5, I would push out one of the totlots, if that makes sense. I'm
going to look to you Todd. If it's easier to just do all 3, then I'd rather just spend the money but if
they're unique items then I would just take one and push it out, and that would give us 144 of the
150 offset so we're a little bit higher.
Hoffman: No, you could do 2 or 3. The only hard part is picking which one to knock off and
then when your friends find out you knocked that one off.
Daniel: Because those are your neighbors.
Hoffman: In that neighborhood.
Scharfenberg: Like the 101 trail.
Stolar: Well the 101 trail I have no problems to talk to my neighbors about that one. No
problem at all.
Murphy: Are there any other ramifications though with pushing that off? Is it somewhat started
one or?
Hoffman: No.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Murphy: No.
Stolar: You go now. You get to the end there and you either go on Pleasant View and then go
up the back way and you get back on it, or if you're risky you go up on 101. Or if you want to do
a more exciting way, you go across to Eden Prairie. Go up on their trail then come back across
but you can get there. By all those ways.
Daniel: Was there any prior discussion Todd with anyone from the State or the County,
whoever's in control now of 101 recently here with regards to that trail and expansion of that
trail?
Hoffman: Nobody else is going to build it and we want to build it. We just get a Limited Use
Permit and go ahead and construct it within the right-of-way. It's still State right-of-way.
Daniel: Okay.
Stolar: And you know, it is something that would be great. It would connect, it would be a nice
little connection but is it, I share Tom's concern that if we don't, if we keep pushing the lights off,
if we don't start making some motion to it, it is an easier way than buying land capacity. Then
we should do that and we do have alternatives for the 101, but eventually it would be nice to be
able to have people to be able to connect into the Minnetonka trails there. So we're talking about
a year swap.
Murphy: And it doesn't sound like we'd be able to get any land for additional fields anytime
soon so.
Stolar: I think we're really starting here again, I want to make sure we do something that makes
sense from just the standpoint for your teams so we aren't causing extra work but if we can do a
couple of fields and get a couple more lit. That was one thing to remember, we talked about this
being athletic, just to make a point. We talked about athletic fields. Not necessarily ballfields,
so maybe one soccer field and one ballfield.
Hoffman: Okay, so we shift $114,000 plus 1 or 2 of the playground additions? One only gets
you to 144. We're initially starting out high at 460.
Scharfenberg: Has there been any discussion or have you been approached Todd by anyone out
of, in or around Roundhouse, Sugarbush or Power Hill Park in regards to the addition of a
toddler park?
Hoffman: Not specifically. I mean people mention it when you're out and about talking to them,
it'd be nice to have. Each one of them was built in a container that had room for the expansion.
So I can guarantee you just about every day that somebody goes to the park they wonder when
will that city finish off that second part of the trail. Or second part of the playground.
Stolar: Let me ask another question. Is there any relation at all to the playground versus any of
the trail at Power Hill? Like does this trail end up at that container? Is there anything?
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Scharfenberg: It's just part of the new construction with the new, they're building all those new
homes back there so it's a new trail for those new homes that are going in there.
Stolar: To get into Power Hill.
Scharfenberg: To get into Power Hill.
Hoffman: And to come to the playground, so it does come out to the playground.
Stolar: The one thing I would say, you know just saying nail down Power Hill and we'll get the
playground and the trail and then the other two we'll defer to the next year.
Hoffman: Okay, that would work.
Scharfenberg: I mean being somebody that lives in that neighborhood and my kids use that
park, I don't know that anybody realizes that that container was meant to put in different, I mean
there's been so much turnover and stuff that that was meant to be a little kids, an addition that
they're going to put in a little kids playground into that facility. I mean the kids that go there and
play now are little kids that use it you know as a big time park anyway. So I think it's probably
the same with all the playgrounds there that, I mean people adapt and the kids use the equipment
as it is and.
Hoffman: Here's something to think about on these second phases. You either need to do them
in the next, the City needs to do them in the next 2 or 3 years or you're just going to leave them
because the playground, the existing playground and the current playground's going to get so old
that you're not going to want to match it with new playground, or you're going to be doing a flip
flop. You're going to want to let that stuff get so old that you replace it with either a Phase I or
Phase II again in the future.
Daniel: Yeah, we end too making a switch on a recommendation at least we make a
commitment if we are pushing out those toddler, 3 toddler parks for 2008. Understand
everything's still fluid, as Todd says, dynamically we can change it but.
Spizale: You know the other thing too is, we're spending a lot of money on tennis also. I would
take it, if I remember correctly that they really needed to be repaired. They're in dire need of
repair, right?
Hoffman: Yes. Our philosophy on tennis courts, we've done very few of them and regional or
centrally located facilities. And then we try to keep them up because if they're not in decent
condition, people complain constantly and they don't want to play on it anyway. So then you
have a capital improvement that's not playable and really doesn't do anyone any good. We've got
a number of very nice compliments about the refurbished tennis courts this year.
Spizale: And the Minnetonka Middle School West?
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Hoffman: It's just an unknown. They're going to spend a quarter million dollars. Middle School
West is one of those facilities that we say alright everybody that moved up in that neighborhood,
we're not going to give you a park because Middle School West is your park, and so go over
there to Middle School West and have a good time. Play tennis, and so when they, this is a
parent organization that's trying to, parent group that's trying to get these tennis courts built
because they had 110 girls come out for next year tennis and they put them on two tennis courts.
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And it's very difficult to teach 110 girls, 9 grade girls or high school girls on those tennis courts
so.
Spizale: And the tennis courts by the high school are used also for that?
Hoffman: Yeah, they're used for the high school so they're down Highway 7. They're trying to
do 8 tennis courts at Middle School East and Middle School West for a quarter million dollars
apiece. That's their goal. They came and talked to us about Middle School West because it's in
our community and we use it as a neighborhood park and I said I would make a recommendation
to at least contribute $30,000 to the effort. It would be similar to what we're doing with the
playground at…and when they're all said and done, they're going to send us a bill for $30,000 for
our contribution to their new playground. Which is used during the day for the school and then
used in the evening as a community park site. It's difficult. You've just got to push things
around and get the one year and then we'll…
Stolar: It sounds like, just to try and move this along, we have a proposal on the floor here to
move half the lighting from 2008 to 2007. To move the 101 trail connector, trail connection to
2008, and I don't know Jeff, were you suggesting we move all of the playground Phase II to 2008
then?
Daniel: Well that would get us closer to that $400,000 bogey.
Stolar: Right, correct. Okay.
Daniel: Yeah, and then based off of my observation, at least one with Sugarbush, and I might be
off base on this but it gets used but certainly not at the level of some of the other parks, so I think
that wouldn't hurt to delay and if we had to make a decision, that's just my own observation on
Sugarbush. I can't speak on behalf of Power Hill, which Steve can certainly do. Or Roundhouse.
Stolar: So let me put that on the table first, so the switch would be, as I've mentioned, half the
athletic field split between, or athletic field lighting 2007 and 2008 split evenly. 101 trail 2008.
Phase II playgrounds, 2008. That would get us to, I believe it's 406 for 2007. I have to check on
my math here.
Hoffman: Got it?
Stolar: We're adding 150 and taking away 204 so, net savings of 54 off the 460. Should we
move that forward?
19
Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Kelly: So then in 2008 we would have 150 again for athletic fields. We have 90,000 so we're at
240 for the 3 totlots, and then we have 114 for that, for the 101 trail which brings us to I think
like 364.
Stolar: Correct. And since we know we have a potential $200,000 hitting there, of new trails
potentially in 2008, that gives us some wiggle room. We won't talk about 2009 yet. That one's
ugly.
Hoffman: We'll get there soon enough.
Stolar: Yeah. Can I have a motion for the 2007 CIP?
Kelly: I make the motion for the changes to the 2007 CIP.
Hoffman: Now that we're on the record, why don't you go ahead and just read the items in that
group please.
Stolar: Do you want me to do it or do you want to?
Kelly: Yeah, why don't you do it.
Stolar: Okay, we have the athletic field lighting, half of the athletic field, proposed athletic field
lighting, 2 fields for $150,000. Lake Ann Park Parkview Picnic Shelter, 95. Power Hill Trail 75.
Tennis court repair, 45. Minnetonka Middle School West Tennis Court Project Contribution,
30,000. Picnic tables and park benches, 6,000. Trees, 5,000 for a total of $406,000. That would
be the 2007 recommendation. Can I have a second?
Murphy: Second.
Stolar: Any further discussion?
Kelly moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
approval of the following items for the 2007 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development
Capital Improvement Program:
Lighting of 2 Athletic Fields $150,000
Lake Ann Park Parkview Picnic Shelter $95,000
Power Hill Park Trail $75,000
Tennis Court Repair $45,000
Minnetonka Middle School West Tennis
Court Project Contribution $30,000
Picnic Tables/Park Benches (Annual) $6,000
Trees (Annual) $5,000
Total $406,000
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0.
Stolar: Motion carries unanimously. Thank you very much. Thanks Todd and Ann. Appreciate
your estimates. And then you'll update the 2008, 09.
Hoffman: And I'll bring that back in September.
Stolar: Why don't you just push all the trails into 11 since we have nothing there. Thanks again.
Hoffman: Which fields, 2 and 3?
Todd Neils: 2 and 3 would be great.
Stolar: I'm going to ask we consider one other athletic field besides baseball because soccer
plays in fall and they could use the extended hours too. Consider. Didn't say for sure.
Todd Neils: I know that, excuse me. I know it's football also uses some of those fields so, yeah
I think you can get, when we talk to Harry Campbell about this who runs our soccer program but
the, all of the fields at Lake Ann you can do a use at some point. But, either football or soccer on
the outfield grass.
Stolar: Oh, of the baseball fields.
Hoffman: 4 and 5 play football.
Stolar: So as long as we get dual use out of it, that's good.
Todd Neils: So 2 and 3, you could get dual use out of that by playing soccer or I think football
there as well, maybe.
Hoffman: 2's too small. 3's marginal. They're the smallest of the fields that are remaining. The
largest fields that are remaining unlit are 6 and a soccer.
Stolar: Well I encourage you guys to work together.
Hoffman: We'll talk about it.
RECREATION PROGRAMS:
DAVE HUFFMAN 5K MEMORIAL RUN.
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Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Stolar. The 7 Annual Dave Huffman Memorial 5K Run and Walk
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is coming up here September 9. We've been busy for about the last oh 3-4 months. Kind of
work out the details for that. Kathy is definitely coming back again this year. Jessica, their
daughter is going to school at the University of Minnesota so she'll be in town and their son Jack
is going to be staying back in the Chicago area to attend a function. Kathy's mom is also coming
21
Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
in to town again this year for the race so, as well as some other people as well for that. It's been,
obviously it's been advertised on our web site. We've run direct postcard mailings. We'd had
ads in Vikings game day magazines and some other things with the Vikings. We have
information out with flyers and that sort of thing as well. Meeting again with Mike Wegler, our
Street Superintendent and Ross Gullickson, our Chanhassen Sergeant tomorrow morning at
11:00 to again kind of go over a lot of the details of the race specific to intersections with cones
and sign placement. And so we'll go through all of that again to make sure that everything is
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progressing as it needs to be. The course was recertified on August 8 to regular starting at kind
of the north part of the parking, more on the grass. We're going to be moving out to Kerber
Boulevard and riding on the asphalt surface or the hard surface so, we're trying to get rid of some
of those transition points and grassy type of areas where we have turned ankles and it's better for
us to be on hard surface too with, we had wheelchair entries last year and we had at least 3, 3 or
4 entries last year so I imagine they'll, we need to anticipate that again this year so that was one
of the reasons for the change. I think we can, on Kerber Boulevard too, we want to keep it down.
We can certainly close the whole street, which we've talked about doing from about Santa Vera
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down to West 78 Street, or else we can probably run on one half of the road too if we close it
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off from the starting line all the way down West 78 Street so it looks like…with Mike and Ross
but I would anticipate the road being closed for the start of the race from Santa Vera down to
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West 78 Street for that. T-shirts have been ordered with that. They should be printed this week
or first part of next week, so we'll be getting those in. We went with kind of a, kind of a yellow
this year. Look of the biker.
Stolar: Lance Armstrong?
Ruegemer: Lance Armstrong yellow. It's kind of that color roughly. A little bit brighter. With
that so those should be here first part of next week, middle part of next week. Worked on the
goody bags again. Angela Lawlon with the Mary Kay is working on that item. Working with
the local businesses and Chamber members for that. The kids run we did move up at least a half
hour to 9:45 to kind of keep the flow of the event going and we'll utilize the interior of our park
to get the kids race after that as well. So we're going to be meeting again next week on Tuesday
again for another race and we've been meeting probably weekly after that leading up to the race
itself so. So have some work to do on that but things are progressing with that and hopefully
we'll have decent weather again this year for it.
Stolar: Okay. Any questions for Jerry?
Kelly: A couple things for changing the route to get it off the grass, because that left turn by the
city, that was pretty tight. My only kind of thing that kind of happened last year was the people
that are reading off times mid race, if there could be some coaching with them. I mean last year
one boy scout was looking at the watch and not saying a word. That didn't help to. I mean he
knew how fast I was going but I didn't. And then the other guy was about a minute or so off so,
so if there could be some coaching but with the splits would be. Besides that I thought it was
great.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Atkins: You know at Excelsior at the Firecracker Run they have a clock there at the half way
point. Flashing tenths of seconds. I don't know where they get it. It's a big square thing. It's
kind of.
Ruegemer: We talked to our Race Director about that too. If there's something we can sink you
know that shows the time.
Stolar: And in fact actually they had, didn't they have at the kids triathlon, they had a clock at
the end there.
Kelly: Yep.
Stolar: Maybe you can borrow it from Todd.
Daniel: Jerry, what's the route again?
Ruegemer: What's the route?
Daniel: I know you're still from Lake Ann and obviously it's changed.
Ruegemer: Yeah.
Hoffman: Kerber, Main Street. Down Main Street to Frontier. Big Horn.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we go past Paula's house.
Hoffman: And then back around up Kerber. Lot of hills.
Kelly: Oh it was easy last year. It's a couple hills on Frontier and Big Horn but you've got to do
something about that hill on Kerber.
Stolar: That's your first of the run.
Kelly: And then you've got to deal with the one coming out. It gets you one way or another.
Atkins: And it's no better backwards either.
Ruegemer: Have you run it that way? We had talked about that.
Atkins: I've done it both ways.
Ruegemer: And your opinion?
Atkins: Probably going up Frontier is the worst. Worst than going up Kerber.
Ruegemer: Really?
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Atkins: Yeah. You'd have to ask Jack…
Hoffman: It celebrates the hilly nature of Chan.
Atkins: It does. Beautiful scenery.
Murphy: And how far is the children's run?
Kelly: It's like a quarter and a half. There's about, approximate quarter mile run and
approximately a half mile run. How many entries you have so far?
Ruegemer: For the race?
Kelly: Yep.
Ruegemer: I'm not sure what it is. It's not tremendous numbers at this point but that's not.
Stolar: Thank you.
FALL PROGRAM UPDATE.
Ruegemer: This is an informational piece for the commission with the fall brochure came out oh
probably 3 weeks to a month ago now. Roughly for that. It's just kind of an informational piece
for the commission to take a look at the preschool programs and adult programs that we have
offered this coming fall. So we're working on the winter newsletter as well and that's due
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December 12.
Stolar: Thank you. Then we had our fifth item. We added the joint meeting with the City
Council.
DISCUSSION OF JOINT MEETING WITH THE CITY COUNCIL.
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Stolar: And that's coming up September 14. Unfortunately I will not be there. In fact I don't
think I get in until the, like 7:30 that night. But Todd and I were talking this past week and we
talked about how some of the things mentioned today, we need to talk about and I had mentioned
Todd, to me and I think it's about time we be bold, although I saw your email that says election
years are not good times to be bold. But to me it seems like based on the discussion I heard,
there are a few things that we think are out there that may require, and I'm going to be bold here,
a bonding referendum. And the things I heard today were, tonight were parkland acquisition.
Right, because we know we're going to be drawing, we know that the cost of parkland far
exceeds the collections of park dedication fees and yeah, we can do the analysis but Todd, I think
you and I had figured out, it's like one-third of what it needs to be to meet both our guideline for
parkland per density, and then the cost of land. See how much we charge per unit and then you
take that and say we need to have this much parkland for those types of units, we're about at a
half or a third of what it would take to actually get the parkland, and that doesn't include any
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
equipment or any trails or any of those things. So that's one thing is parkland acquisition. I think
the second one we heard tonight was, the trail acquisition because even the cost of building the
trails isn't necessarily keeping up with the park dedication fees. And I guess from previous
discussions, just to fill in the background, we're already near the top on the park dedication fees
and there's not going to be much field for increasing those. The third thing that I had talked to
Todd about was finishing our city parks, and we talk about generally finishing the parks but I'm
saying we've got a lot of things out there in the master plans on our city parks that we haven't
finished, whether it's City Center Park warming house or Lake Ann, creating a nicer stand in the
middle there of all the fields so there can be concessions, bathrooms, those sort of things and
some of those things that are in the master plan so to me that's kind of a third area. Question and
then of course previous meetings we heard a fourth area, amateur baseball field. So those seem
to be four really big things that if we wanted to do those we'd need additional sources of revenue.
They can't be park dedication fees. I don't know if there are things that are missing. A huge, you
know 20 acre dog park.
Daniel: I think too, and it's not necessarily just amateur baseball field. I think there are other
things that both Ann and Steve have brought up I think as well as hockey arena. I mean just in
general discussion. In conjunction with the school district. Things of those nature as well that
still need to be taken into consideration. And obviously that goes well beyond what we can
afford in the existing CIP revenues that we have so, that's something that certainly be put forth as
consideration down the road to the voters if they're willing to take a look at additional taxes. I
just worry about for this type of expansion of our park system.
Stolar: So the question is, is that a topic we want to bring up with the City Council at the joint
session saying there are these large capital investments in the community when we look at where
we're going to be that we might need to figure out a way, and then again we don't have to tell
them how to figure out the funding. We can just say these are needs out there. We can offer to
them, we'd be happy to prioritize them. Discuss them further, but you know if they say you're
not going to get any funding for this, it makes the decision easy. I would hope that wouldn't be
the discussion. The discussion would be investigate, prioritize because we know, so we listed
five things now, six things. We know that all of them are not possible. So maybe we would take
it on ourselves after the discussion to work with the community to figure out what the priorities
would be. Any other thoughts on, so that's one potential topic for the joint meeting. And Todd
maybe you and I would have to have a discussion on the side to prep for that since we don't have
a meeting between now and then.
Hoffman: Well, it really is, the commission talked with the council, it's just what you bring
forward to them, unless you want me to write something up.
Stolar: In previous ones we just had notes right that kind of captured this discussion. I guess
that would be the only thing that was helpful.
Hoffman: Yeah, and sometimes you do that as Chair or.
Stolar: And I can type something up and send it off to you.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Hoffman: Yeah, this was the same conversation 11 years ago in 1995. It started at a capital
improvement conversation and the commission was faced with too many needs and wants and
not enough money in the bank. And so they struggled in 1993, '94, '95 and then in '95 they sat
here and they said alright, not only are we going to push forward our 1995 recommendation for
CIP or 1996, but we're going to recommend that the council go to a referendum to do these
things. Preserve open space, build out parks, build trails. At the time it was what, 7 miles of
trails. Six segments. To get a jump start on what was going on at that time they just felt really
swamped by the fact that they weren't moving ahead. Opportunities that they had lost and the
council approved that referendum proposal. In fact they went one step further. They added a
million dollars to the question and then sent it out to the voters and it was approved and moved
forward. I don't know what the flavor is or what the appetite is for a referendum today. And
many times when you see these park bonds paid off, that's the time to bring it back to the voters.
It's an appropriate time and we've got a few years left on this particular bond. We have a few
years left on that at this point before it's paid off. We also just refinanced those park bonds and
so we saved some money. Council was happy about that. Finance Director was happy about
that. City Manager was happy about that. So we saved some money there with that but you
know these are all good conversations and to Chair Stolar's point, you don't have to say this is
how you should do it. This is what we should do. What you need to have I think as a park
commission, an honest conversation with the council about look what's happening to our
community. Highway 212 development. Just the Town & Country development, have you seen
it on Audubon? That's 440 homes. That will be 1,000 to 1,200 people moving into this town in
the next 2 or 3 years. We've not seen this kind of growth since the mid 1990's. When Steve's
neighborhood went up and Joe Miller was in town building hundreds of homes. It's just been
fairly quiet since that time, so now we're going to see another growth spurt. You already know,
you're struggling, or your community is struggling with facility needs and now you're going to
add another 4,000 people in the next few years and you're going to tell these folks to move over
and make room or you need to make, the community needs to makes some additional
investments in our facilities. It's getting tougher to do primarily because of land prices, and then
also because construction costs continue to go up.
Stolar: So for now, so that I can type something up, some of the long term capital needs or ideas
that we have out there. Parkland acquisition, and we talked about that. We're running out of
space and growth of the community. The MUSA trail construction that you know each of these
new developments is going to need us to reimburse them for trails. To keep the trail system
going. The amateur baseball field. District 112 joint projects. The pool and the ice arena
specifically. The completion of current parks to the master plan. I know Todd brought some
pictures if we wanted to see them, of some of the things that are missing, and I'm focusing on
city parks right now but I know there's still a bunch of stuff in the neighborhood parks also
missing. And then the other thing I put down there, because I think this is what they did with
some extra money prior, did they populate the CIP fund for some maintenance, ongoing
maintenance? Was that part of it or not? Then that must have been Eden Prairie when we did
that. Eden Prairie we did that where we actually part of the referendum, I think it was roughly
around the same time. Might have been, they put it into their park and trail maintenance fund
too.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Hoffman: We did some rehabilitation. Fairly extensive rehabilitations. 16 parks in 1996 so we
said your neighborhood's going to get a trail. Or your neighborhood park's going to get a trail.
Your neighborhood park's going to get an ice arena. So we did some of those things.
Stolar: So it's a completion of the city parks or completion of parks and according to master plan
we'd cover that type of activity. Okay. And then the other, first of all any other things on the
long term capital needs and then any other topics for the joint meeting?
Hoffman: It will be a half hour, 45 minutes. They meet with all other commissions prior to your
meeting so, try to keep it light.
Murphy: Did we ever, for that Lake Ann, we're talking about a concession around the ballfields
and then restrooms. Do we ever have an estimate, dollar estimate on that? No? Never?
Hoffman: $200,000 and up.
Murphy: Okay.
Stolar: So they're not in the CIP right now correct?
Daniel: That was confusion I had. I thought under the Lake Ann Park pavilion, that's not going
to be something, that's just basically a shelter.
Hoffman: That Lake Ann Park pavilion is a picnic shelter on top of the hill.
Daniel: That's on top, near the volleyball court.
Hoffman: Yeah. We're at capacity with our group picnics, weddings, family reunions now.
And this is a slab on grade shelter. It's at capacity.
Daniel: Similar to like you see down at Rice Marsh or.
Hoffman: Yeah, but much larger.
Stolar: And we won't have any facilities associated with it.
Hoffman: Water.
Stolar: Water. It would have the ability to have facilities added later or, I thought I read from
the minutes that there is the connection for sewer and.
Hoffman: Could. Yep, the easiest connection to make is underneath the baseball, future
concession stand site there because you have water running right underneath it, but we ran water
up to this Parkview area as well. And then there's a sewer grinder station down at Lake Ann
which services the beach building and you could go on for many of these, if you wanted to put
restrooms in.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Stolar: But it'd be easier from the one that's right by the ballfields?
Hoffman: Ah yeah, and restrooms add $100,000 to your budget so. More or less.
Stolar: You know part of, and I apologize I wasn't at the meeting last month but you know
reading through the minutes, I just compare it to Bennett Park, which I know is not a park
district. You know we pay for Bennett Park, those of us who use it. We support through
donations and such, but the fact that they have that stand there, and unfortunately to say this
about my kids, they're more excited about getting their coupon for the concessions after the game
then they really are playing the game. And I would say if you look at the lines there, there's
much more of a rush going to the concession stand than going to the game so, to me having
something like that available for you know the people who are in the Chanhassen leagues I think
is really important. That's part of what I was thinking about when I talked about completion of
the city parks. You know let's finish out Lake Ann so that it becomes that kind of a place for the
kids to go. It just seems really sad that you have this, these tournaments and there's no place for
them to really go get a snack. No place to go to use the facility. They have to go run all the way
there. And certainly they can go to the beach side, but you know, it's a good distance. But that
would be part of what I'm talking about when I say completion of the parks. It's in the design to
be able to have that. Todd, I will draft something to send and I'll send it around, if people want
to add to it. I guess Steve, if you can coordinate for the meeting and stuff since I won't be there.
Scharfenberg: Okay.
Hoffman: Maybe you should send it to your fellow commissioners since you won't be here
representing the list.
Spizale: I've got a question on the concession stand. Is that a money making or money losing
type of thing?
Stolar: For Bennett Park? I mean Bennett Park's a not for profit so I don't know what, I'm not on
the board so I don't see the financials but I would assume that they probably break even. I don't
know what do we do, we actually make money at the concession at Lake Ann right?
Hoffman: Yeah. It's an experience enhancing endeavor. You're never going to pay back the
cost of the building.
Stolar: Right.
Spizale: But it's not a losing.
Hoffman: Well once you take out the building, yeah you can make money or pay for it.
Stolar: And the thing is that it has one or two professional staff throughout the year but for the
games, parents volunteer so you know every time you sign up for a league, you have to, for
every league you have at least 1 or 2 slots you have to do to house the stands.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Daniel: And that's exactly what they do with South Tonka versus East Tonka. I mean they have,
I mean that's part of their revenue for South Tonka Little League. Where they, their concession
stand is a money maker for them so I mean that's why, for example at Bluff Creek, I'm surprised,
based on the fact that that facility is used basically from May through October, that there's not
some sort of concession stand. Especially with the amount of children and families that are
attending that. If you look at, if you really want to look at a revenue generating, again take the
building out, that would be certainly one opportunity for the city. Or programs. Again that
would be probably more of a program use than it would be something that the City'd be
coordinating but some of the athletic programs that Todd for example was representing here.
Hoffman: Bluff Creek is…a concession stand, nobody runs it.
Daniel: Yep.
Kelly: They're there for the chance that the Jamboree and it was jammed. It was jammed.
Hoffman: It was in the early days they operated…so it's kind of a level of commitment or a
tradition. If you go to Carver, everybody's been Carver to play ball games. The Lions are there
night in and night out cooking hamburgers, hotdogs, just one of their deals. It's their
commitment to the community and so… Is it going to generate dollars? Absolutely. Is it going
to generate anything close to the dollars we're talking about here now? No.
Daniel: But everything counts.
Hoffman: But there has to be somebody to do it.
Stolar: And I guess I view it more as a service to the people using the park, right. And if it pays
for itself, great. But we wouldn't put the concession stand in to make money. We'd put it in as a
service.
Hoffman: Absolutely. But the realities are…walk in and get $150,000 in lights by coming to a
meeting. It's a lot easier than running a concession stand for an entire season.
Stolar: Which I mean part of, one question I should have asked and I forgot about it was, you
know why don't they raise the money. We'll build it and they can run it and they can get money
and that's what Bennett does. That's what South Tonka does to raise money. So, any other
questions or items for the agenda?
Hoffman: Meeting to be held in the Fountain Conference room. You've probably all been there.
7:15.
Stolar: Yep. Can you send out a note?
Hoffman: There'll be an agenda. And this was just picked about a week ago… Two open spots
th
during the election. No candidates as of yet. Closing, filings close in September 12.
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Park and Recreation Commission - August 22, 2006
Murphy: Nobody applied for it?
Hoffman: Not yet. Nobody's filed for election yet.
th
Stolar: They'll probably wait until September 12 at the last minute. Can I have a motion to
adjourn?
Spizale moved, Atkins seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Director
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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