1i. Minutes 75
' CHANHASSEN CITY COUNCIL
REGULAR MEETING
JANUARY 23, 1989
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Mayor Chmiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. . The meeting was opened
with the Pledge to the Flag.
COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: Mayor Chmiel, Councilman Boyt, Councilman Workman,
Councilwoman Dimler and Councilman Johnson
' STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, Roger Knutson, Gary Warren, Larry Brown, Jim
Chaffee, Steve Hanson, Lori Sietsema and Todd Hoffman
APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
approve the agenda as amended: Councilman Johnson wanted to discuss having a
social get together of the council, citizens, and developers of the community;
Councilman Boyt wanted to restore item 10 to the agenda, Criteria for Selection
of Park and Rec -Commissioners; Councilwoman Dimler wanted to discuss Eurasian
Water Milfoil and Mayor Chmiel wanted to discuss a letter he had received from
Carver County in conjunction with Hennepin County regarding the Regional Rail
Authority. All voted in favor of the agenda as amended and the motion carried.
CONSENT AGENDA: Councilor
an Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
I approve the following Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's
recommendations:
e. Approval of Accounts.
' f. City Council Minutes dated January 12, 1989
Planning Commission Minutes dated January 4, 1989
' Park and Rec Commission Minutes dated January 10, 1989
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
A. APPROVAL OF 5-YEAR STATE AID CONSTRUCTION PROGRAM.
Councilwoman Dimler: I wanted to pull this one because I had a question and
that's to Gary Warren. How were the streets chosen that were supposed to be
aided by this government money?
Gary Warren: How do we run our State Aid roadways itself?
Councilwoman Dimler: No, the roads that you were chosen that you had on the
' map. Were they arbitrarily chosen or are they chosen for a specific reason?
Gary Warren: The roads that we're recommending on the 5 year program were
' chosen because of I guess our evaluation that they are in need of some
modifications, repairs and also if we've had any complaints or input of that
nature.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, is it possible to add another road on there?
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Gary Warren: ...your input.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess that I would like to request that we consider
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adding Frontier Trail to that list.
Gary Warren: Okay, to address your question more directly. The State Aid roads
themselves, the ones that are on attachment #1 on the map, those roads have to
meet the State criteria as far as, for example continuity to connect to major
roadways. Highway 5, the country roads, the State restricts the use of funds
say on just a normal local roadway. They won't allow that. We have in the past
in fact tried to get Frontier Trail onto the State Aid road system but it's been
denied because it has too many geometric problems and it's not really conducive
to through traffic and major transportation so Frontier Trail has already been
denied.
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes, overlooked many years. Okay, then you are saying
that all those roads that are on the maps are the actual ones that are slated to '
be done within the next year, 2 years?
Gary Warren: All the roads that show on Attachment #1, that shows our total
State Aid designated roads today. Of those total roads, for example, we just
built Bluff Creek Drive. That won't be coming up for any work here maybe in the
next 20 years we hope. We have selected in the detailed maps that are attached,
those roads which we feel are the best use for our State Aid monies over the
next 5 year program. So the specific submittal that we're asking for approval
tonight is the 5 roads or so that we've got on the 5 year program. We also will
be getting back to the Council here probably in the next month with, the City
has about 3.6 miles yet that we can designate to come up with new roads to put
on State Aid mileage. We just met with the State today in fact to get their
preliminary approval so we will be adding some roads but for right now, this is
it.
Councilwoman Dimler: And is that just for one year? This is for the 1989 year
that you're asking for? '
Gary Warren: The 5 year program is actually updated, typically every year
although this hasn't been requested fran the State for the last... ,
Councilwoman Dimler: Do your roads change from year to year within that 5 year
plan?
Gary Warren: They can althought I wouldn't expect them to change a lot.
Councilwoman Dimler: Thank you. '
Councilman Hoyt: I've got a comment. I can't help but be amused by the irony
of the City Engineer commenting about how Frontier Trail isn't a through street
when in fact the Council 2 years ago designated it as very much a through street
when they connected it to Kerber Blvd..
Gary Warren: I reference is how the State has looked at that as far as the
geometri.cs are concerned. Not the actual contact of that road with Kerber Blvd.
for example.
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Councilman Boyt: It's just ironic.
' Councilman Johnson: I'd like to ask a question also if I may. This is a 5 year
' ( plan and as that goes, plans change I assume. I wasn't going to discuss it
because but as long as it's up. Can Minnewashta, even though we've given this
schedule, be moved up to 1990 if funds are available or something because that's
' a road that I think has really been overlooked way too much. I would like to
see it worked on as soon as possible. i realize there's not a lot of money
available until 1991 but if there were someway we could start on that one next
year versus waiting until 1991, I think that some improvements there. This
' isn't fixing it in concrete, that's my question. If this fixes it in
concrete...
' Gary Warren: As I tried to point out in the staff report, this is to give the
State an idea that the City has projects lined up for our allocations because if
we do build up too much in reserve in our construction funds, we can lose them
to other needy cities if we pass their magic ratio. The reason that we've
' looked at Audubon Road ahead here of Minnewashta is because of the work that
we'll be doing on Audubon here as a part of the industrial park work but that
flexibility, even with an adopted 5 year plan isn't to say that we couldn't come
' in next week, and if the Council wishes, that we start working on Minnewashta
Parkway instead. There's no problem in doing that.
' Councilman Johnson: Because I can see using more tax increment money on the,
that's the railroad bridge to Lyman, that's outside the tax increment. There's
not much you can do there. Okay, I have no other questions.
II Mayor Chmiel: Okay, hearing none, we'll move to the next item. Item (b) .
Councilman Boyt: Shouldn't we vote on these as we go?
tMayor Chmiel: I was thinking we would probably do that after we discuss all of
them and then we can just adopt all of them rather than going through a vote on
each individual one.
B. AUTHORIZE UPDATING OF NORTH SIDE PARKING LOT IMPROVEMENTS FEASIBILITY STUDY,
PROJECT 87-17.
Councilwoman Dimler: I was just curious as to, maybe Gary you again can answer
' this question or whoever has the answer. Why wasn't the work done within the
year after the first study and do you have any cost estimate as to what the new
study will cost?
Gary Warren: The work wasn't done because of the uncertainity as far as the
buildings that were proposed for this area. The parking lot typically is one of
the last things we do in an area like this so we don't damage the new surface.
So with the uncertainity as far as the medical arts building, at one time there
was a daycare, the Riviera expansion plans, the contamination issues as far as
the 76 gas station is concerned. It wasn't prudent in our judgment to push this
project forward. We had to let some things get established and now that we have
medical arts here on the agenda tonight and other things, a better handle on
those things, we're able to now push ahead with the project.
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` g ity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 . II
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess my point is, I'm saying, why did we do the study
in the first place when those plans weren't in order, do you understand? And
now it's going to cost us more to do another study. Is that correct? '
Gary Warren: It's an updating of a cost basically and some minor modifications
to it. I, quite honestly, I don't have a cost estimate in mind but I don't
believe, a lot of the material will be reused fram the original study. This is
strictly going to be an updating of the costs and any assessments issues that
would go with it for the most part.
Councilman Johnson: At the time that we did approve this in the first place,
things were more definite but then the medical arts started having the problem.
The investigation of the Union 76 site started to drag on. We thought we were
going to buy that a year ago and we still haven't purchased it because of the
contamination problems there. Negotiations for purchasing various pieces have
taken longer than they should have but we had a pretty solid plan at that time.
We thought we were going to go ahead and have this constructed last construction
season but not all plans work out.
Councilwoman Dimler: Are the plans pretty much in order now though so if we
approve this study that we'll move within a year?
Don Ashworth: Yes, I think so. You have before you again the medical arts
this evening. Loren Anderson is still a question although we have signed that
option agreement. HRA has acted to purchase the Mason property and they're
still in agreement. They still want to see the project go. Adjacent to Riviera
and the 2nd phase of the medical arts will not be included in the 1st phase work I
but as long as the 1st phase work is commenced within a year, we can then move
into the 2nd phase.
Mayor Chmiel: Any further discussion on (b) ? If not, we'll move to (c) . '
C. CHANHASSEN CITY HALL EXPANSION, CONFIRM EXPANSION REQUEST, CHANHASSEN '
LIBRARY BOARD.
Councilman Johnson: I bring this up because I did not feel there was a clear
recommendation. I believe what is being recommended is that we approve the
library to have an interim expansion into the new downstairs area that's being
constructed but it was not clearly stated in our procedure. It says the
recommendation must be clearly stated on a consent agenda item. That's my
recommended action on this one so that it's now publicly clearly stated.
D. APPROVAL OF RESOLUTION FOR PORTABLE BREATH TESTER.
Councilwoman Dimler: I pulled item (d) because I just wanted to make a comment
and again, the report presented it as if this was a free gift and I guess I'd
just like to say there aren't any free gifts. That somebody's paying for it and
if the State is providing it, that the taxpayers of Minnesota are paying for it.
I question why we need it when we don't have a police department. I've checked
with the Sheriff's Department who we are under contract with and he informs me
that Carver County has many of them and that if Chanhassen wants to use them,
that's fine with him. And since there is also a maintenance expense that has
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I • City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
IInot been budgeted for, I would move that we do not enter into this agreement a
this time.
g at
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Councilman Boyt: I think we should hear from Jim Chaffee because I don't think
the facts back that up.
' Mayor Chmiel: Jim, would you have some comments on this?
Jim Chaffee: Yes, I would. I got a call today from Captain Pagelkopf from the
Carver County Sheriff's Department who asked if they couldn't in fact use this.
That they are providing another car for the City of Chanhassen which doesn't
have one of these. It is free from the State as Councilmember Dimler says. I
guess we all pay for it through our taxes but it has been purchased and they're
offering it to us free of charge. The maintenance part of it, there is no
maintenance agreement on the machine itself. The little white plastic pieces
that go on the top and it's a minimal cost. We certainly can use it and we
' would put it to good use. It would help get the drunk drivers off the roads in
the City of Chanhassen. I think it's well worth the minimal cost. Very minimal
cost in this case.
Councilwoman Dimler: I agree that it's a good cause but I also, the Sheriff's
Department has than for us to use so at this time I don't know why we would need
our own.
Mayor Chmiel: I believe what Jim has indicated here, he said that the
additional patrol car that would be offered to us by the Sheriff's Department,
IIdoes not have one in that particular car. I'm thinking that might be a direct
benefit to have it for the use within the Sheriff's Department car. In fact,
that was one of the questions that I was going to ask as well. Would or could
the Sheriff's Department who patrolled Chanhassen use this instrument?
Jim Chaffee: As I said, Captain Pagelkopt called me today and asked to use it.
I didn't just ask him. Yes, they will use it.
Councilwoman Dimler: But the information I got from Sheriff Wallin was that
they had plenty of then and that they were going to go the other way and let us
' use theirs. That's why I brought it up.
Councilman Johnson: As I understand, they share the ones they have. You have
to go down to Chaska, pick it up to use it and this we would have permanently in
our squad car that the Sheriff drives around here so that we would at any time
that we see a drunk driver, we would be able to do that test. Not only at the
times that we have gone down to Chaska and picked it up and are specifically
doing drunk driver patrols. They don't have enough for every Carver County
police car as I understand the situation and that this one was not really
designated for Chanhassen police department or public safety but was going to be
' used by the Chanhassen Carver County patrol that is currently assigned here. We
have quite a bit of equipment that we have purchased for that particular car.
We've probably got the best police car in Carver County. They have a modular
I telephone that's been donated in there. They're getting more advanced radar
guns in that car. It's one of the best equipped Carver County cars because
we've helped support that car and this would just make it a little better.
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 •
Councilman Workman: Jay, are you saying that we have no breathalyzers in any
cars in Chanhassen now?
Councilman Johnson: It's only when you pick them up?
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Jim Chaffee: No. The car that is assigned to Chanhassen right now does have
one. The additional car that they are going to assign to Chanhassen starting
January 30th does not have one. That's why Captain Pagelkopf called me today
and asked if he could have it.
Councilman Workman: And they were going to use the used one, two weeks ago
there was going to be a used one moving into the new donated vehicle. Where's
that one coming from?
Councilman Johnson: That's radar.
Jim Chaffee. That was radar. '
Councilman Workman:_ We were talking about radar then, okay.
Councilwoman Dimler: It was also my understanding that Carver County themselves 1
had applied for 10 of these units as well and are getting them.
Jim Chaffee: I don't know anything about that. 1
Councilwoman Dimler: That's why I brought it up.
Mayor Chmiel: I think probably as you indicated Bill, we will work each one of El
these individually being that there is some controversy on the item (d) .
Councilwoman Dimler: Mr. Mayor, I did make a motion. We have to either move
it or...
Councilman Boyt: It didn't get a second. I
Councilman Workman: I'll second Ursula's.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, it's been moved and seconded that the approval for a '
portable breath tester be eliminated as to the recommendation that's been made
by staff. Discussions are open.
Councilman Johnson: I'm just going to repeat what I said before. I think
anything we can do to keep the drunk drivers off the roads here, if the Carver
County Sheriff's department said they'd like it for their second car here so '
they can help patrol with the rest of their cars, If they've got 10 of them,
they've got a lot of cars out there, I'm going to continue to support this one.
Mayor Chmiel: My concern was too, how many additional sheriff vehicles are '
there? Any idea?
Jim Chaffee: There's a possibility we could have up to 6 sheriff's vehicles in '
the city at a specific time periodically in a two week period. That's a lot of
police vehicles.
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IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Mayor Chmiel: Outside of Chanhassen, being that Ursula mentioned that they're
talking about 10, how many total vehicles does the Sheriff's department have?
IIAny idea?
Jim'Chaffee: That I couldn't tell you exactly.
Councilman Boyt: I'd just like to comment. Mr. Mayor, you were at the Public
Safety Commission meeting. This came up at the Public Safety Commission meeting
and correct me if I'm in error but I think this was unanimously approved by the
' Public Safety Commission.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes it was.
Councilman Workman: If I could make a comment as far as what I see here. We've
got a lot of tension over a small item, although a valuable one. The City of
Chanhassen does not have a police department but we've added an addition to City
Hall which at times is referred to as an addition, a public safety addition.
We're getting our own police car. We're getting our own radar. We're getting
our own breath testers. We've got our own Public Safety Director. We've got a
' Public Safety Assistant. We've got an awful lot of costs which are supposed to
be born by the County and as such, we are covering off some of those costs. It
just seems to me there's an awful lot we're, there's confusion out there and if
you were at the Public Safety meeting the other night, there's confusion as to
where even a complaint can go. Maybe that's what Councilwoman Dimler is getting
at in that do we have a police department or don't we. That's my comment.
I Mayor Chmiel: I think we have a Public Safety Department. We do not have our
own police department. I for one, as I look at the overall, during campaigning,
people asking questions what position we would take, I indicated at that time
' that we will not have our own police department until it becomes cost effective.
We will continue with the Sheriff's Department for as long as that time persists
and I've had that discussion with Jim. So I just wanted to make that
clarification.
Councilwoman Dimler: Again, I would like to go on the record as stating that
the reason that I'm doing this is because we do not have our own police
department and I remember as I was going around door knocking during the
campaign, the citizens were telling me to hold down spending and this was not a
budgeted item. Even the maintenance, we don't know really what that will be
even thought it might be minimal but a lot of little minimals add up to more and
more and more and so at some point somebody has to say no.
Councilman Boyt: I want to know if you're going to go on the record as saying
' that you're not going to do everything possible to keep drunk drivers off the
road.
' Councilwoman Dimler: No, that isn't my intention. I've already stated that
I've checked with the Sheriff's Department and I did that for that purpose. He
said we have more than plenty of them that we can share with Chanhassen so at
any time we need one, we could even get one on a permanent basis I'm sure.
tCouncilman Johnson: I believe that we pay something in the range of a art
million dollars a year to Carver County to g quarter
y provide us a police department and in
addition to that we have a Public Safety Department to help coordinate that
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police department. We have CSO's to do the duties that non-police officers, the
animal control, some patrol that does not require a licensed officer. As such
right now, I would say we do have a police department except for the patrol '
officers are hired out from Carver County as our source to get them. They
provide the vehicles, patrol, dispatch, everything. Even if we did get, they
would still be our dispatcher even if we got our own police department because
that's base level protection that we pay for in our taxes everyday is some of
that Carver County. Anything we can do to help those men and women who are
patrolling our streets for us, we should do. This is such a minimum thing.
There's less expense here than the cost of the mobile phone which is an item
that has provided us more on the road police service. When they get the call to
come make a call, which is quite often for an officer, they would have to drive
back to City Hall, stop get out of their car and make that call. Now they can
pull over to the side of the road and make that phone call. These little things
make Chanhassen the premium spot for a Carver County officer to want to work so
we get the best out here. If this will help us continue to get the best out
here, we've got to do that so we get the best officers our money can buy. '
Councilwoman Dimler: Councilman Johnson, I think you're still missing my point.
It's not that I'm not for the best but the Carver County has it already and they
are willing to share it with us. That's my point.
Mayor Chmiel: Let me make a point here. Being that we are not certain as to
the total numbers that the Sheriff's department is getting, as proposed by the
portable breath tester that we're suggesting, maybe I'd just like to throw
something out. Maybe we just table this particular item to find out what total
numbers are going to be acquired by the Sheriff's Department to see if this
additional one is even needed.
Councilwoman Dimler: That would be fine but we have to still move this motion
and then make a motion to table.
Councilman Johnson: Unless you withdraw your motion.
Councilwoman Dimler: No, I won't withdraw it.
Councilman Boyt: I have a point of information. Mr. Chaffee, how much does
this item cost?
Jim Chaffee: Nothing.
Councilman Boyt: No, I mean to the State since it seems to be a concern abou t -
State money. Are we talking $100.00?
Jim Chaffee: Possibly. I don't know.
Councilman Boyt: I think, in my opinion, we should deal with it. If you don't
want it, let's turn it down but I happen to want it and I can't see a point in
tabling this for 2 weeks. This is something the State is making available to
us. What's so difficult about making this decision?
Councilman Johnson: I'll pay for the maintenance if you like.
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IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
ICouncilwoman Dimler: I guess my point is that, I said we were going to hold
down spending and we have to start somewhere and a lot of little items keep
II I getting bigger and bigger and bigger. It's just going to keep going.
Councilman Johnson: Well, if your motion fails, I'll move with me paying for
the maintenance of this item if the few bucks for maintenance is. ..
' Mayor Chmiel: ...we ask the Sheriff's Department whether or not they would
approve this portable breath tester for the City of Chanhassen. If they would
concur with that idea, let them make that decision on this particular item.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'm sure that they would have no problem with it. I've
already asked them that.
Councilman Johnson: They'd rather get 11 than 10 anyway. If they're getting
10, I'm sure they'd rather have 11.
' Mayor Chmiel: So by making that specific request, I'm wondering whether you
would like to withdraw your position on that with your denial for the breath
tester for the City of Chanhassen?
' Councilwoman Dimler: No, I think I'd like to go for a vote on it.
Councilman Workman: If it's assumed that because Councilwoman Dimler or Workman
wants to discuss this issue that we are for drunk driving as some of our fellow
councilmen have made us out to be, I think it's a little unfair. If it's a
matter of a couple of bucks for a couple of little plastic pieces, I think
' there's more than one person missing the point here.
I Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to deny the request for
the portable breath tester. Mayor Chmiel, Councilwoman Dimler and Councilman
Workman voted in favor; Councilman Boyt and Councilman Johnson voted in
opposition to the motion and the motion carried with a vote of 3 to 2.
Mayor Chmiel: Now we'll cover items (a) , (b) and (c) . Does someone care to
make a motion for each of those?
Councilman Johnson: Mr. Mayor, I move approval of the recommendations made by
staff in items (a) and (b) . In item (c) , I approved the interim utilization of
additional basement space of the new addition for the Carver County library
system.
' Councilman Workman: Second.
' Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve the following
Consent Agenda items pursuant to the City Manager's recommendations:
It_ a. Resolution #89-05: Approval of the 5-Year State Aid Construction Program.
b. Resolution #89-06: Authorize Updating of North Side Parking Lot
Improvements Feasibility Study, Project 87-17.
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•l31tzty Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 11
c. Chanhassen City Hall Expansion, Confirm Expansion Request, Chanhassen
Library Board for Interim Utilization.
VISITORS PRESENTATION:
Brian Tichy: My name is Brian Tichy. I live at 1471 Lake Lucy Road. The '
presentation is concerning the no parking signs on both sides of Lake Lucy Road.
I have a petition that I'd like to present to the Council from the residents of
Lake Lucy Road to try to reconfigure the street so that we are allowed to park
at least on one side of the street or during the winter months due to snow
problems, space problems when you have people over for company and that nature.
Right now, if you have more than 1 or 2 cars, friends of yours over, there's no
place for than to park. It becomes a problem particularly in the winter. In
the summer there are places where you can put your visitor's cars but during the
winter there is no space.
Mayor Chmiel: Very fine, may I have that petition please. The petition that
we've received, is- there any discussion from Council?
Councilman Boyt: Yes. Having seen Brian's driveway, he's got quite a problem 11
there. Anytime we get 2 or 3 inches of snow, he's going to have a hard time
getting up and down that driveway. Turning into it much less what happens once '
he's into it. I don't know exactly what the City can do because I think there's
some pretty clear State Statutes limiting what the City can do and I'm sure
Brian's aware of those. I'm not sure how many people ride their bicycles out
there after a 2 or 3 inch snowfall but somehow or another I'd sure like to see
the City work to come up with a solution for people who have no place to park.
Councilwoman Dimler: I agree with that. I think that since the bike paths are '
not being used during the winter months, the least we can do is to allow than to
park there during the winter months when the parking problem is compounded with
the snow. I'm sure that you'd like to see it to summer months as well. '
Brian Tichy: We'd appreciate it if we could park there in the summer months. It
would help if you have more than 2 or 3 friends. We do use the bike lanes.
There's a problem obviously with the bike lane that goes to nowhere. There are
no bike lanes on CR 117 to the west and CR 17 to the east. People do use the
bike lanes although.. .stay within them. We use than ourselves. Again, if they
could be somehow moved to one side of the road, that may satisfy I guess the
bicycling problems. These are alternatives.
Councilwoman Dimler: I know that Larry, you've already written a letter to
Brian haven't you and in there it stated some of the State Statutes that you
found out and we appreciate the work you did on that. However, I still would
like to see if we can't get together and work out partial parking.
Mayor Chmiel: Any further discussion?
Councilman Workman: There are bike lanes on both sides right now? '
Mayor Chmiel: Yes there are.
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
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Councilman Workman: Have the people who signed the petition decided which side
Ithe bike lane would be on or does that not matter to the people?
Councilman Boyt: We can't put it on the same side. State Statute won't allow
us to put two bike lanes on the same side of the road.
Councilman Workman: We only need one bike lane on one side of the road don't
we?
Councilman Boyt: You can't have a one way bike lane. Or two way, one width
bike lane. It's very specific. It's sort of like, if you have a highway, you
have to meet limits. If you have a bike lane, you have to live with limits too.
' That's what has created the problem.
Councilman Workman: I'm just asking the question. I'm not speaking as an
' authority.
Councilman Johnson: We built this with State Aid money. Some of the 5 year
' plan we're talking about several years ago, in fact it was before Bill and
I were on the Council that this State Aid money was approved. Again, once the
State's got their money involved in the project, we lose some control.
' Larry Brown: The City Attorney can verify this but from what I dragged out of
the State Statutes, State Statute was very specific in saying that all bicyclsts
shall ride as close as practical to the right hand side of the roadway and that
II was the real reason why we're limited to putting a two-way bike lane. It was
very clear that it had to be to the right hand side with the direction of
traffic.
Councilman Workman: So do we even have to have them or not have them and can we
remove them? How are people going to park there then if we have to have it on
both sides?
Larry Brown: Sure, that would certainly be an option if you'd like to.
' Councilman Workman: We could remove the bike lanes?
Larry Brown: Yes, you could.
Councilman Workman: Would Park and Rec have a problem with that?
Mayor Chmiel: They conceivably could.
' Councilman Johnson: I think this should go to Park and Rec. Have they
considered this at this point?
Brian Tichy: I spoke with, I can't remember the gentleman's name with Park and
Rec and he had it go to Larry Brown.
IL Don Ashworth: Staff would recommend that the item be tabled this evening.
Allow us to advertise it. It would be on the next agenda. If there was any
reason it would not be on that agenda, we would contact Brian. A staff report
would be prepared and look at some alternatives. I know in the Carver Beach
area we have similiar problems and I think that we got around most of those.
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 II
The biggest problem was being able to clear snow out at the same time that
1::
vehicles are parked out in the roadway itself. So in some of those instances,
we had to look at trying to work with the individual owners in finding some
other spot where they may be able to park, we could still clear snow, etc..
Councilman Johnson: Mr. Mayor, I'd like to suggest also that we get Park and
Rec's feedback on this because it's their trail. Not their trail, it's the
City's trails but they're the keeper of the trail so rather than bring it
immediately back to the Council before Park and Rec has a chance to put their 2
cents in, I'd like to pass it through to the Park and Rec Commission on it's way 1
back here.
Councilwoman Dimler: I think Park and Rec meets tomorrow. Can we put it on '
their agenda for tomorrow?
Mayor Chmiel: I'm not sure as to what their agenda would be.
Councilman Johnson: I'm not sure staff would be ready for it tomorrow.
Don Ashworth: I was just trying to look at their agenda here. They do have a '
meeting tomorrow night. We can take and see if it could be verbally presented
and whether or not they would take action. They, like the Council, like to have
their information early. Get a chance to study it, etc.. Otherwise, that would ,
put the item to February 27th for City Council.
Lori Sietsema: It would be February 14th is our next meeting.
Don Ashworth: But the next City council following Park and Rec would be the '
27th.
Mayor Chmiel: I suggest too that we table it and do as a recommendation by Mr.
Ashworth has indicated that this go to the Park and Rec at their February 14th
meeting and then back to the Council on February 27th. '
Councilman Johnson: Mr. Mayor, could I suggest that if staff can come up with
an interim solution before Park and Rec looks at it, that we consider that at
our next Council meeting because February 27th, that's a lot of wintertime so go
at a two-prong, interim solution right now. Right away. As quickly as possible
with the full review through Park and Rec also. Conceivably it could be the
13th or the 27th, The City will notify and let you know for sure. 1
Councilman Boyt: I'd just like to point out that it's probably unreasonable to
give this to the Park and Rec Commission with no notice. Expect them to make a
comment on it that means anything and get it back to us for our next meeting.
Councilman Johnson: That's not what I said. Here's a motion. I move that we
send this to the Park and Recreation Commission on February 14th and have it
back to us for February 27th, I believe is our last meeting in February unless
staff can come up with an interim solution to this, which will be interim until
Park and Rec has had time to review it. In which case, we'd like to see that
interim solution at our next Council meeting which I believe is February 13th.
That way, we may be able to get something going a little sooner for them. Staff ,
may came up and say, hey, we don't see an interim solution that we want to give
to Council without Park and Rec looking at it. In which case, then it delays it
12 1
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 .)7
another 2 weeks. That's my motion.
IIit -1 Councilwoman Dimler: I second that.
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to direct the Park and
' Recreation Commission to review the bike lanes on Lake Lucy Road at their
February 14, 1989 meeting and make a recommendation to City Council. In the
interim, if staff can come up with a temporary solution to the no parking
problem on Lake Lucy Road, to present that to the City Council at their February
13, 1989 City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
AWARD OF BIDS: PUBLIC WORKS EQUIPMENT.
Gary Warren: Public Works, we have four vehicles that we had budgeted in the
I 1989 vehicle replacement fund. Three of the vehicles are replacement vehicles
for equipment that has many good years of service on it and one of the other
vehicles is a new vehicle to recognize the budgeted expansion in the Park and
Rec Department bf a new employee this year. We also have included with the bids
' here and the 1 ton vehicle, the equipment for snow plowing. The plow box and
the sander since this vehicle will be utilized for plowing snow in the Carver
Beach area. We feel we've got some very good competitive bids and we've
attached the vehicle specifications to the packet here. Basically, as an
overview, including radios and sales tax, etc., we're looking at a total award
of $69,287.04. Our budget for these items was $75,200.00 so we're very pleased
II 1 with the bids that went on and it's equipment that I'm sure we'll be putting to
good use this year.
' Resolution #89-07: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to
award the Public Works Equipment bid to Superior Ford for the 1/2 ton pickup at
$11,187.00; the two 3/4 ton pickups from Waconia Ford at $14,070.00 each; the 1
' ton cab and chassis from Bob Ryan Ford for $14.757.00; the box and sander from
Midland Equipment at $5,584.00 and $1,596.00; and the snowplow from Crysteel
Truck Equipment at $1,598.00. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
AWARD OF BIDS: TELEPHONE EQUIPMENT FOR CITY HALL/FIRE STATION.
Jim Chaffee: A few months ago we started looking at expanding our present
system, telephone system in the new addition to the City Hall. At the same time
we were looking at upgrading the system at the Fire Station. Recognizing that 8
' years ago we purchased our present existing system in City Hall for a little
under $15,000.00, we also recognized that the present system is at it's capacity
right now and it is considered obsolete with the advances that are being made in
the high tech industry of telephone communications. With that in mind, we set
' out to look at either overhauling the entire system or expanding the present
system with it's outdated features. We did get together with many vendors, 18
as I've indicated in the memo, to seek bids for upgrading our present system to
IL include the addition to City Hall and the Fire Station. We did initially get
interest from 18 vendors. However, when it came time to bid, we only received 6
bids. Of those 6, as I've outlined in the memo, AT&T was the highest.
Executone was the lowest. Unfortunately, only one system met all our
13
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
specifications. Fortunately, that one system that met our specifications was
the second to the lowest. The way we went about outlining the specifications,
we received a set of specs from two different agencies who were looking at new
phone systems and a third set of specs from the State of Minnesota. We combined
all three to meet the needs of what we thought were actually needed for
City Hall and came up with the present specifications that we let out for bid.
As I've indicated, we've received 6 bids out and the high was AT&T at
$40,897.00. The low was Executone at $21,074.00. However, the bidder that met
all our specs was Telephone Specialists at $22,911.00 with trade-in and
consequently, that's what we are recommending. Is we accept the bid from
Telephone Specialists at $22,911.00 to outfit both the existing City Hall, the
new addition to City Hall and the Fire Station.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there discussion on this? 1
Councilman Johnson: I spent a little time with Jim on this going over and
looking at some of the bids that came in and discussing them. How he put this '
criteria together is an extremely technical. You know buying a telephone used
to be simple. The advances in technology and this system that he's recommending
has some very nice features on it that I think we can use in the future and
expand upon this system and I think they did an excellent job of putting
something as highly technical as this together. My company I work for, we have
a whole group of people who only do this and I don't think they would have done
any better of a job. I commend them for the good job on this. '
Resolution #89-08: Councilman Johnson moved, Mayor Chmiel seconded to award the '
bid to Telephone Specialists in the amount of $16.147.00 for System A and
$7,814.00 for System B and to include a $1,050.00 trade-in price on the old
system. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
APPROVE TH 101 INTERSECTION CONFIGURATION WITH TH 5; AUTHORIZE SUBMITTAL TO
MNDOT. '
Gary Warren: If I could ask a question Mr. Mayor. For the benefit of the
Council, would you care for any history on this? '
Mayor Chmiel: I think if we all took the time out to read the information that
was provided to us, I think we should pretty much be up to date with what has
transpired. Although if there are any questions by Council, they could then ask
those questions at the time.
Gary Warren: I'll give a very brief overview then. We do have our consultant I
team here with Fred Hoisington, Don Ringrose and Howard Preston form the design
team so if you do any specifics, we can get into that as warranted. As stated
in the staff report, the item was before the Council on November 28, 1988 and at
that time there was some concern and questions about the actual configuration
for the intersection at TH 5 of Dakota Avenue, Great Plains and the new Market
Blvd. intersection. Medians and laneage was a big concern, especially as it
restricted or altered access to the businesses along that area in particular.
We are on a very compressed schedule with MnDot and this is the last step here
in getting this final configuration into their plans. They're sort of waiting
on us I guess if I could put it bluntly. Barton Aschmann who is designing TH 5 '
14
IIy City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Ineeds this information to be able to proceed with the rest of their laneage
design. So what we've done is gone back, taken the input from the businesses
and we have modified areas where we could. And if I could ask Howard Preston
1 ' just to briefly summarize the key changes that he's done on here, I think that
will be the quickest way to summarize it for you.
' Howard Preston: The layout that is shown on the board there is similar to what
was presented to the City at that earlier Council meeting as Gary has indicated.
There are really only two major changes that are shown on this document that
' make it different from the earlier document. The first change is at the
intersection of the new north leg of TH 101 and West 78th Street. I'll try to
speak loud enough so you can hear me but I'll just indicate it here. It was
suggested at the earlier Council meeting that a free right turn condition for
' the southbound to westbound right turn be added to make it easier to get onto
West 78th Street to get into the downtown area. We've added that. There are no
other changes at this location. At the intersection of TH 5 and Dakota.
I Another suggestion was to change the south leg of Great Plains Blvd. on the
approach to TH 5. The original design from MnDot had a raised median extended
all the way down from TH 5 to Lake Drive which restricted the access to,
' actually eliminated the access. MnDot had proposed no access for the Legion
Club. They had proposed...coming down Lake Drive and no access for the
convenience center, the intersection. We had revised that. We removed the
median and added what we would call a two island change lane so that there would
be full access restored at both of those intersections at both of those
driveways. It would require moving the driveway to the Legion Club slightly
south but it would give a greater separation between the driveway and TH 5 but
I both of these accesses would provide full access. Right turns and left turns in
and out. There were no changes at the intersection of Market Blvd.. The
earlier layout only showed the geometrics right at the highway as suggested by
MnDot. This layout shows we would extend that section and then tie back into
the existing Market Blvd. north of the Soo Line railroad and then propose to
extend the provided roadway as suggested by MnDot for the new south lane for
TH 101. So everything else is the same. The exceptions again, the free right
turn to get into the downtown area from southbound TH 101 and West 78th Street
and then the modification of the access condition on the south leg of Great
Plains Blvd..
' Gary Warren: So with that, we did hold our work session here last Thursday
night with members of the interested public and went through specifically
property issues as they were presented to us there. I see from the audience
here several of those people are here tonight to who may choose to comment at
your discretion. But the action that we're requesting of the Council is to
approve these final configurations and authorize staff to submit these to MnDot
1 for inclusion in their TH 5 improvement plans.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone in the audience who wishes to address the
Council?
Pat Hallisey: I'm Pat Hallisey with Blue Circle Investment Company. We're the
owners of the convenience center just south of TH 5 on the existing TH 101. A
I couple of members of this Council have heard me on several occasions in the
past. I'm sorry I haven't had the opportunity to address all of you in the past
but I'm going to take a few minutes of your time, with your indulgence and share
same of my views with you regarding this whole situation. First of all, when we
15
`"City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 '
built our shopping center, and we've expressed this to prior Council, we felt
that we were given certain conditions and certain assurances that staff,
Planning Commission, City Council in power at that time regarding what was going
to happen with the road patterns in the City of Chanhassen. Those have not
come about. In fact, the Council just prior to you just ignored all of it and
moved a highway, which we were told was not going to be moved. I don't want to
beat that issue to death other than the fact that we did supply the City with
legal opinion stating that we had damages caning from the City if in fact the
City moved TH 101. I know that the City's counsel takes exception to that. At
that meeting, I clearly stated to the City Council that it was not our intention
or our desire to litigate the issue. In fact that we wanted to do all that we
possibly could to avoid litigation. It was my understanding as a result of that
City Council, that the City was going to instruct the staff to enter into same
type of negotiations with us. As a matter of fact, just within a couple days
after that Council meeting, I called a member of this Council and asked him who
it was I should be negotiating with. He gave me the name of a gentleman and
said that he'd call that gentleman on your city staff and have him get a hold of
me so we could start negotiations. Well, about that time you got into elections
and there was all kinds of things going on. About 45 days later, I called the
same councilmember back and he said, I've instructed that staff member to get a
hold of you. I got a hold of that staff member, and lo and behold, he admitted
that he was supposed to have done that about 30 days before. I asked that staff
member for some very specific information regarding what was happening with the
three major intersections along TH 5 for the City of Chanhassen. He sent me
I/
two. Not the one that directly affects me the most. The reason he didn't send
it to me was he said it was an undefined plan that was subject to change. This
gentleman here, and I'm sorry I forgot your name, just told you folks tonight
that after working with the affected property owners, this plan was developed.
In spite of the fact that we're tyring to alleviate. .. We came down here last
Thursday evening to a public viewing of a plan, we were totally aghast. Every
single plan that had ever been presented to this Council, prior to the time that
you took action, showed Lake Drive East going approximately like this. That
just happens to coincide with exactly what your City Engineer told us was going
to happen at the time we built our shopping center. Tonight I've been given a
copy of a letter dated October 14th, just shortly before your prior Council
voted to move TH 101. Up until that point, every single plan with Lake Drive
East showed it extending approximately perpendicular to TH 5. This letter is ,
from the Attorney of the Ward family. The Ward family doesn't like that. The
Ward family likes that road in some kind of configuration like that. Not only
that but the Ward family doesn't want it built. At least not now. This is the
first time I've ever come to a meeting and seen that we've got a Phase 2 to this
whole development plan. Your City Engineer at the time we built our shopping
center told us that at the time the first development between the existing
TH 101/CR 17 took place, Lake Drive East would be extended to Great Plains. The
existing TH 101 to CR 17. We come here last Thursday night after not having had
any input, not having had anybody ask us even. We didn't even know there was a
consideration being made to change what everything had been gone up to that
point in time. We cane and we find a change to the road configuration. We find
out that it isn't even going to be built now because one land owner decides he'd
rather have that done some other point in time. I don't really care how you
build that road. There are pluses and minuses to both this configuration and
this configuration. My point is, you're taking a roadway from me that by your
own consultant's report, indicate that in the future would carry 20,000 cars and
reducing that to 6,000 cars. Then you're putting a major development in here I
16 I
II l
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 y
and you're not even giving me a chance to get to those people. I'm extremely
miffed with the process. I'm trying to avoid
Y 9 going to court with you people.
" I'm just appalled. I'm shocked. I don't know what I can do. I guess if I had
my druthers, I'd rather see you go back and leave TH 101 right where it was and
_ Upgrade it in it's present position. As an alternative to that, if you can't do
that, please build Lake Drive East so the people to the south of me and the new
IIpeople coming to this town have got a chance to get to my shopping center.
Mayor Chmiel: Thank you. Are there any other persons wishing to address the
Council on this intersection?
IBill Davis: - I'm_wi_th Sinclair. I came out last Thursday night to review the
. plan up there and I guess maybe I've been sleeping during the other meetings we
Ihad out here but I didn't realize the median was going to extend from TH 5 all
"- the way down to Lake Drive, therefore, restricting the access to the Sinclair
gas station from somebody going north. They were talking about going back on
Lake Drive towards the west and cutting a road in at the back of the gas station
so that people can get in there that are heading north because they're going to
run the median from TH 5 all the way down. So somebody is going north, wants to
stop at our station, would have to turn west on Lake Drive, go down 100 feet or
I whatever, make a right, go into the station, get their gas, make a U turn, come
back all the way around again, down to Lake Drive, take a left, go up to the
stop sign, take a left and go up to TH 5. We find this a real, real
I inconvenience. Cr by the same token, if somebody is heading east on TH 5 and
says ha, there's the dinosaur, let's go get some gas. So they turn in. They
get into the station off of Dakota but they can not get back out on Dakota
II i unless running around the back of the gas station. Not knowing what studies
have been made on this, my boss and I would like to suggest that this median,
instead of going all the way down to Lake Drive, maybe half the way instead of
all the way down to give our station a chance to survive so the customers can
I get in and get out. Also, consideration would have to be made somehow for the
tanker, the delivery truck. The inconvenience of getting in and getting out of
there. Not knowing exactly what kind of cuts they're going to give us but these
II do require a little bit more room than a car to get in and get out. If he would
have to come in the back way, make a U turn or whatever, it can be a real
inconvenience so I'd like to have you take this under advisement.
IMayor Chmiel: Gary, can you address at least this gentleman?
Pat Hallisey: I had one other question. The staff, the consultant brought
I - `something in in their presentation tonight and that is that we would, rather
than having a right-in/right-out into our property under this plan, it would be
opened up into a two-way curb cut. I have no objection to that. I'm just
wondering if anybody knows how that's going to be paid for because when we built
II our shopping center we were told, we originally asked for a two-way cut onto
that street so people could make lefts and rights in. We had to go to a lot of
extra expense in order to meet MnDot's standards because that was not allowed as
II - -that was TH 101 and was- going to be. We had originally engineered a right-in/
right-out after we were told we couldn't have a two-way curb cut. MnDot came
back with much more elaborate standards which cost us a whole lot more and if we
IL - paid to put it in and now you people are going to take it out, I'm just
wondering if we're going to have to pay to take it out too.
Mayor Chmiel: Can we address those questions?
r
17
11
''•€Ji.ty Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 ; II
Gary Warren: I'll take the last one first. That aspect of the project, there
would be no special assessments considered. There's nothing proposed. The
dollars for that would be coming out of the tax increment monies from the
project. It's correct. If we're going to modify something and it's at our
discretion, just like the rest of the median improvements out there, that would
be a project cost that would not be assessed to the property owner. I'd like,
if I could Mayor, to ask Howard to address the Sinclair station as far as the
length of the median and any options that might be there. We've taken a hard
look at all of these things as we've gone through and Howard can summarize that
for you.
Howard Preston: The median at Dakota was originally proposed by MnDot on their
layout. I don't know what their reasons for doing that were exactly because I
don't know what went into the development of their layout. We've suggested that
the median is necessary on Dakota because looking at the forecast traffic
volumes for the entire area that were produced for the City by your other 11 traffic consultant, when we looked at those year 2005 volumes and looked at the
operation of the intersections, we looked at each and every one, and at this one
in particular, TH 5 and Dakota, the volumes of traffic that are expected to be
on that approach to TH 5 during peak hours are heavy enough so stacking back
from the intersection beyond the driveways to that gas station are expected. So
the median is a safety feature from the standpoint that if somebody would try to
make say a left turn out of the station to head back north on Dakota, there
would very likely during several hours of the day, be a line of standing
vehicles waiting for the signal at TH 5 to turn green. It's extremely dangerous
for another vehicle to try to pull out through that standing line of vehicles so
the primary reason was simply not to cut off the access to the Sinclair. It r
wasn't something that wasn't thought about at all. It was the stacking or the
cueing analysis that was done during the design process for that intersection
indicated that the median would be a definite safety feature. So the idea is,
we're recommending this driveway out to Lake Drive so that somebody who was
trying to get back out onto Dakota, we would encourage them to come out to Lake
Drive first where it would be easier to get access because the traffic volumes
are much less on Lake Drive than they would be out on Dakota. There would not
be the line of standing vehicles that those people would have to turn through
and then when they came out to Dakota, there would be, at Lake Drive, it would
be just a typical intersection kind of a situation and there wouldn't be people
turning in all different directions at these other driveways adjacent to them so
that was the rationale for the design of that median.
Mayor Chmiel: Just a quick question. As you indicate, there is problems as far
as the safety aspects are concerned by removing a portion of that because of the
stacking coming in. Now I can understand this gentleman's concern of the
accessibility of in and out and making those swings around. Is there anyway
that that can be designed with maybe another driveway approach other than what
he has?
Howard Preston: I talked with him last week at our open house and the layout
indicates that we were going to close off one of the accesses to Dakota and when
he explained his situation with the trucks, I indicated I wouldn't have any
problem opening up that second access again so if the combination of the two
driveways onto Dakota and I still think the driveway, the new driveway down to
Lake Drive, that combination, we talked about it, it appeared to be acceptable
18
II ' City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
as far as getting the transports in and out yet there would still be some
circuity because they wouldn't be able to pull directly out onto Dakota as they
II .a previously do to get back up to TH 5 but I guess I thought that was the best we
: could do. To give them both driveways back onto Dakota that he has and then
construct this other driveway down to Lake Drive and give him something close to
' the level of accessibility that he has now. -
Mayor Chmiel: The total number of vehicles that you're indicating, that would
_ be the year 2000 and whatever. -
Howard Preston: Year 2005, yes sir. It expects that there would be additional
traffic on all of the roads in the area due to development that is expected and
' been documented in your Comprehensive Plans.
Don Ashworth: In regards to the first question, I am sure that there have been
' businesses that would have liked greater information or maybe did not understand
a portion of it. For Council perspective, it may be well as a part of any
action that you take, to instruct staff to prepare a listing of all of the
meetings that occurred on this item, let's say in the last 4 to 5 months. Who
' attended. The area of discussion. In other words, what subject occurred and a
listing of all of those businesses by date. We do have notes regarding all of
the meetings._ _ -
Councilman Boyt: May I ask the point of doing all that work?
11 I Don Ashworth: Simply to insure that the Council is aware of, I think there was
I a statement in the staff report that staff has met with businesses and again, I
do not question any individual business that they may feel they would have liked
to have greater amount of input but I think a lot of time has been put into
trying to get input into this process and the Council may wish to have that
information just in a summary form.
' Mayor Chmiel: Is there anyone else who would like to address the Council?
Councilman Workman: Where are we at with the apartment building on the north
side of Dakota?
Gary Warren: We're proposing one unit.
' Councilman Workman: Are there any of those people here tonight? How have they
been notified? Where are they so far?
Gary Warren: _We've notified them to the extreme of actually stuffing their
..._-,,mailboxes because the owner, he gets a legal notice and then we've actually had
the CSO's carry individual notices to each-of the apartment dwellers for both
the November 28th meetings and also the public hearing.
Councilman Workman: And there hasn't really been any response to that?
Gary Warren: Correct me if I'm wrong but they're kind of looking I think to
1 - maybe selling off a building the way rentals are going these days.
Councilman Workman: Let me back up. Let me ask Roger where we are with the
' TH 101, Great Plains Blvd. intersection.
19
-City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 1
Roger Knutson: As far as what?
Councilman Workman: As far as the Total. It's the Total right? We're talking 1
about the Total shopping center over there. I guess I'd need at least a legal
summary as far as where we are.
Roger Knutson: Sure. We've advised the Council I think earlier on their legal
rights. The Minnesota Supreme Court has held on many occasions that it is not a
compensable loss if you take traffic away from an area or if you put medians in
or if you make one-way streets. That is simply not compensable. The only time
it is compensable is if you take away access or you make access very circuitous
so it's impossible to get to them. But just because the amount of trafffic is
cut because medians are put in or because things are made one way or because no
parking signs are put up, that simply is not compensable in Minnesota right now.
The law is quite clear on that.
Councilwoman Dimler: Since we're talking about medians and Mr. Klingelhutz
isn't here to represent his concerns again, would this be the proper time for me
to address that?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, if you'd like to.
Councilwoman Dimler: Mr. Al Klingelhutz has a business on Great Plains Blvd. I
that's north of the railroad tracks. It's just south of the St. Hubert's
cemetery and east of the Dinner Theater exit there out of their parking lot.
And he has appeared before the Council many times in the past also expressing '
his concern about the median that is proposed there. He looked at this on _
Thursday I believe it was and then told me that he couldn't be here and asked if
I would address that again for him. Apparently he's not satisfied with what has
been done. Did you talk Al?
Mayor Chmiel: I haven't received any information.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, I guess I'd just like to remind the Council that I
was at the meeting here when he addressed the Council in December and they
assured him at that time that a median would be removed. Is that your
recollection of that? That we would not cut off his access from the north.
Councilman Johnson: I think we looked at it. I don't remember any guarantee
personally.
Councilwoman Dimler: No, but Mr. Hamilton did say that and he said I'm sure that
none of the members of this Council want to cut off your access. I remember him
saying that.
Councilman Johnson: A statement like that I'm sure Tom probably made that none
of us want to cut off his access. I do not want to cut off his access.
Criteria for the traffic in the area may force us to though even though I do not
want to.
Gary Warren: That was at the December 12th meeting and Mr. Klingelhutz was at
our Thursday meeting and we talked at some length with him about that issue.
Just to clarify, the median that is being addressed shows up on, I think it's '
20 ,
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 '"
II
Iour second attachment, Figure 2 here but it is not really a part of this
intersection because that median is the same as what was approved in the
original construction plans for the downtown. It hasn't been constructed at
I I this time just simply because the railroad hasn't constructed their crossing.
So if there is a change to that median, it really is a change that should be
founded in the plans and specifications for the downtown improvement project.
' The reason why that median is in there, Counci.lmember Johnson touched on it, is
the channelization of traffic as it comes from the downtown is controlled by the
medians and the continuity is important. As you can see from this plan here as
we go from TH 5 up into the downtown which, you don't see the rest of it here
but we do have our medians that everybody is familiar with throughout town. To
have a gap in the medians here would I think be very confusing to the motorists
and could result in some real problems. Mr. Klingelhutz has access, southbound
access to the property via the city's parking lot so in our evaluation we
concluded that he did have southbound access and a good access when you look at
it because the majority of people coming to that property are parking in the
parking lot and not necessarily using his driveway in. Mr. Klingelhutz also
eluded that at some future date he expected a higher use to be on that property.
A new building of some sorts which I think when you look at the layout of the
downtown and that intersection across from the Bloomberg entrance, that's really
' where the City should be looking to channelize and control the movements for
access and get them into our parking area. So his driveway, the 16 foot
driveway that is there right now and also the 16 foot opening that comes into
the parking area, I really believe has been our best interest and we'll try to
give him the access that he needs for that property and strikes the best
compromise between channelizing traffic in the downtown.
II — Mayor Chmiel: Any additional discussion from Council?
Councilman Johnson: I do. This is not the first time that this change to Lake
Drive East has been discussed. It's been discussed several times in conjunction
with the Rosemount project and discussion with the Lake Drive East public
improvement project and I don't think that we can force the Ward family to
' configure the street through their property. We can't even force them to
develop at any time that we want. With this plan, I'm not sure that we would be
just about putting a road through their house. I'm not exactly sure where their
house is on this but I don't see that this should be a shock to somebody just
' seeing it Thursday night because it was last year that this new configuration
was decided upon. It was not something real recent. The change puts the end of
Lake Drive East at one of the main entrances to Rosemount so there will be, for
this large development with a lot of employees, there will be good access to the
eastbound version of Lake Drive East because the main entrance is there. Also,
it would be a better intersection probably for some people coming the other way.
Even beyond being an amateur attorney at times, I don't think that anybody, lots
' of threats of legal action and everything, I don't think we can be sued until
there actually is damages. If everybody could sue somebody because they think
they're going to have damages in the future, that their business is going to be
' decreased in the future by some action taken in the future, we'd really have a
lot more lawyers around. We've got enough of them already.
Mayor Chmiel: No offense Roger.
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Councilman Johnson: As far as, did anybody address did it pay to take out? I
would think this is a public improvement project so the changes to that driveway
to make it a full turn, right-in and right-out and left-in and all that other
1111:
good stuff, would be a public improvement cost.
Gary Warren: I addressed that first on that that would be a cost of the
project. Not assessed to the property owner. I
Councilman Johnson: In our approval of this, if we approve this tonight, I
would like to see us mention, if it's not mentioned in the recommended approval,
II
I have to review it again, because the drawings don't show two accesses to
Sinclair, I think that needs to be a condition of our approval that Mrpot
consider having two accesses into Sinclair off of Dakota Avenue. The drawings
only show one. Our consultant says that he doesn't have a problem with two but ,
that doesn't mean MnDot doesn't have a problem with two. As far as Sinclair
goes and their access, I look at SuperAmerica over there at TH 4 and TH 5, they
have pretty poor access. If you're eastbound on TH 5, you can get in there but
II
to get in there if you're westbound, you've got to go over. That's a horrible
intersection. It's tough to get out and they're having a lot of business. That
place is always busy. I think this access as proposed. .. I
Bill Davis: You've got to run around the back of the station and make a U turn
to get back out again.
Councilman Johnson: They most certainly do and it hasn't affected them. II
They're always busy. You'll see 5, 6, 7, 8 cars in there. You can talk to the
neighbors up there. They'll tell you how busy they are and how much noise they '
have.
Tim Erhart: I'm Tim Erhart. I live in south Chanhassen and number one,
regarding the issue of medians. One is that I think they're a nuisance for II
people who have to get in and out and use the local retail businesses, which
I do. Secondly, in sane degree there are safety hazards in that I find myself,
and I'm sure other people do it, is that people end up taking U turns to get to
II
a business because they can't get directly across to it because of the median.
Third, the businesses that are in the downtown area have to live on the business
that's in the city today. Not on the business that's in the year 2205 and I
II
think, you had mentioned that the traffic study was based on the year 2005?
Yes, that's 16 years from now. What I would suggest is that, look at the
possibility of putting the medians on the plans in some of these areas as a
future construction so as we're doing our downtown planning at this time, that
II
we incorporate the space for them but to review whether we need to put them in
now or perhaps hold than back until such time as we actually see the need for
stacking, which is the premise that the medians are based on anyway. If the
II
space is provided, certainly we've seen than in and I might be wrong, that a
median could be put in at that time and save myself and a lot of people the
hassle of doing U turns and not being able to get to business and more
II
importantly, to try to protect the businesses that we have in our downtown area
until such time as there's enough people that they can get into the business on
right turns only. Thank you.
Councilman Boyt: To sort of build on that issue. I've heard a lot of talk '
about liability and whether or not the City has a liability but clearly there's
going to be a reduction in traffic if these changes go in as mentioned. And a I
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 ;'
reduction in traffic is bound to translate into loss in business but the issue
--isn't, is the City liable because the City may very well not be liable. The
issue is, just as I see it, just as Mr. Erhart mentioned, it's kind of an
1 i ' obligation if you will. Maybe it's not a legal liability but it's an obligation
to do what we can to protect businesses in Chanhassen and that hasn't always
been easy given the changes that are going on in the city but it's why it's so
II -- ' important for the City to communicate- with businesses until they can't get away
from us. Not have the businesses chasing the City to see if they can get a hold
of us but having them try to get away from us because we're so aggressively
going after them to get their opinion and I don't think we've pushed i
- it that
I -far. We're not going to change the TH 101 relocation. In my foggiest
imagination I can't see opening that issue back up but I think we certainly do
have to do our darnest to mitigate concerns that the business people have. I
I - - 1ike the recommendation that we not put, if it's possible for us to get MnDot to
accept not extending that-curb more than half way down until traffic volume
justifies it, I think that would be a nice move for the Sinclair station. I
II think the problem with TH 101 and Mr. Hallisey's development is going to be a
- -long time in coming, I-believe. I -don't think we're going to-shut off-that
roadway that's now TH 101 for quite a while, if ever but we should certainly be
- working with him and his development and the Legion on how to maintain traffic
II -which is the name of the-game for their businesses so I would like to send this
back to the engineer with a request to change the median strip by the Sinclair
station and the directive to the City staff to work more closely with Mr.
IIHallisey in the future.
Mayor Chmiel: Is that a motion Bill?
Councilman Boyt: I will so move.
Councilwoman Dimler: I'll second that and may I add to it?
II - Mayor Chmiel: Certainly.
II Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I would like to also go on record as representing
the concerns of the citizens and I have had people ask me, when are we going to
get rid of the medians downtown rather than when are we going to add more. So I
would say with that, if we could also eliminate the median by Mr. Klingelhutz'
I - - property and maybe even look at eliminating all the medians since they..are such
a problem.
I -- Mayor Chmiel: Is there a second to the motions that's been made? It has been
-`'moved and seconded has it not?
Councilman Boyt: The first motion.
Mayor Chmiel: ` For the first motion. . : -
II -",—councilwoman 'Dimler: At least the amendment to remove the median by Mr.
Klingelhutz' property if not all of them.
' Mayor Chmiel:- To have engineering review those problems and indicate that
I possibly at a later time those medians could be put in rather than at this
particular time i.n discussions with MnDot. I see some puzzled looks.
23
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 1
Councilman Johnson: Are you rephrasing her motion or making a different one
now?
Mayor Chmiel: No. I'm just indicating with what I'm seeing here on the faces. ,
Gary Warren: I'm just confused I guess. Maybe we need to take it more in
pieces here to clarify. Bill has a motion. I
Mayor Chmiel: Bill's motion basically, Bill would you like to restate your
motion one more time?
Councilman Boyt: Okay. My motion has two parts. The first one, the gentleman
from the Sinclair station, Bill Davis, said that they could live with the median
extending halfway. The traffic study said the full median is needed by 2005. I
would make a motion that our engineer be directed or our consultants be directed
to move in that direction of reducing the median to half the distance with the
commitment to extending it fully as the traffic demands it. Then the second
part was a recommendation to City staff formally that they work with Mr.
Hallisey and other businesses more closely to be sure they're included in the
further development- of these plans because we're not done even with our action
tonight.
Councilman Johnson: Bill, would you like to also consider allowing two accesses
into the Sinclair as the consultant said that would be possible? I
Councilman Boyt: Surely.
Councilman Johnson: Okay. So your motion is to approve these plans with the
conditions...
Councilman Boyt: The conditions as stated plus that we move in the direction of I
reducing that median strip and working closer with Mr. Hallisey.
Mayor Chmiel: Bill, would you also like to include in that motion covering Mr.
Klingelhutz' area as well?
Councilwoman Dimler: Or I can do that if you like.
Councilman Boyt: To discuss that further. We discussed that issue in great
detail at some point. I don't mean we by the 5 of us but the issue has been
gone through and I know there was a struggle to get that out once before and it 1
didn't work. So from my part, I don't want that to be part of my motion. That
doesn't mean someone else can't make it.
Councilman Johnson: I believe that particular median, with the railroad I
crossing there, is a very dangerous spot and removal of that, at that railroad
crossing may not be a wise idea. It may also delay everything out there because
the railroad is depending upon that median to be there for the size of their,
they're going to have to redesign. We're talking maintaining, without those
medians being put in there, maintaining that railroad the way it is because now
they're going to have an excuse to redesign. They've already delayed us a year
and a half or something on putting up the new signals there. Now, if we change
those medians, they're going to have to redesign their signals so we're talking,
knowing the railroad, another year and a half or if they can delay it longer,
24
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
II
I'm sure they will, to put even larger crossing stops in there. That's why I'm
against making that change.
Councilwoman Dimler: Is there someway that we could give him access from the
t north that doesn't have to go through the parking lot that's behind Pauly's?
IICouncilman Johnson: That's where most the people go anyways.
_ Councilwoman Dimler: With not jeopardizing� pa ng their safety.
Councilman Johnson: I believe that parking lot was designed to service his
- building, not just Pauly's, Pryzmus and whatever building up there. It is
designed with spots towards his building and his customers are using that lot
II --,-- versus his little lot out back as his primary lot. I think they're just asking
for... _ _ _
Councilwoman Dimler: He's unhappy with the situation and therefore I think we
II should take his concerns into consideration.
_Councilman Johnson: They've been taken into consideration several times in this
il project. Like I said, this was approved with the downtown redevelopment 2 years
ago and has gone through public hearings and a lot of consideration. This shows
. it as part of this project but it's not actually part of this project and
II probably shouldn't even have been involved in this project. They extended the
distance on their drawings further than they should have.
Councilwoman Dimler: I know it was approved Jay but that doesn't necessarily
II i mean it was right. I think that you've heard from the public that they don't
like the medians whatsoever downtown and to go and keep perpetuating a mistake,
to me is just ridiculous.
IICouncilman Johnson: To do it 90% one way and 10% another-way is dangerous. Bad
engineering practice.
1 Mayor Chmiel: Let me pose a question.
Councilman Boyt: On which one?
IIC._Councilwoman, Dimler: _We should do Bill's,motion -first.
Councilman Johnson: Well, yours is an amendment to his. -
councilman Boyt: It can stand
alone.
-- Resolution #89-09: .Councilman Boyt moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to
cr-,:approve the interchanges for Dakota AVenue, Great Plains Boulevard and Market
I ' Boulevard with Trunk Highway 5 for submittal to MnDot for inclusion in their
Trunk Highway 5 improvement plans with the reduction to the median strip by the
Sinclair station and including two accesses and the directive to the City staff
IL to work more closely with Mr. Halli-sey and other businesses in the future. All
voted in favor and the motion carried.
II
25
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Mayor Chmiel: We'll bring it back to you Ursula in regard to the concern that
you've indicated that Mr. Klingelhutz' as his concerns regarding his
accessibility into that particular site. I guess I look at that too, the way
it's been designed for the accessibility of going in. Coming from the south
it's pretty difficult. Let me just throw something out in just discussion. Is
the accessibility problem for Mr. Klingelhutz or is it the availability to know
where his business is at and would signage help that? '
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I'm not in a position to answer that. He didn't
indicate to me the real reason why he was so opposed to it. '
Councilman Johnson: We've got quite a few agenda items left and a motion on
this one would actually be a reconsideration of past Council action which would
then involve us considering this particular median in the future versus tonight
because it's not really on this Council's... I'm not sure if MnDot has to have
this north of the railroad tracks. That's not the purpose of this project and
it's part of the downtown redevelopment project so I would believe that what you
would like to do is reconsider or make a motion or under Council presentations
or something that we look at in the future and staff advises and we get a full
staff report and everything on what it would be like if we removed all and
what the cost implications are if we removed all the medians and this particular
median versus debating that tonight.
Councilwoman Dimler: Is the construction to be at the same time the rest of '
this will be done?
Gary Warren: We're waiting strictly on the railroad. There was a letter of
mine in the adminstrative packet which summarized the latest jab, so to speak, El
to get some action out of them. They're saying that their signal group is
planning on having the plans done so that construction would happen the second
quarter of this year. This has been a 2 1/2 year process of hearing things like
that so we will not do anything on that median until the railroad has expanded
the signals and completed their crossing work.
Mayor Chmiel: Is there a date indicated by the railroad as to when that would
be done? Nothing at all?
Gary Warren: The only work we have is verbal and that's why I tried to document 11
it with our follow up letter and that was the second quarter of this year.
Councilwoman Dimler: Are you telling me then that if we approve this tonight, '
as amended, that we can still go ahead? That doesn't mean we've approved that
section for Mr. Klingelhutz? That we can still go back to that?
Gary Warren: That section has already been approved by the construction plans
and is not a part of this.
Councilwoman Dimler: Then why is it on here? ,
Gary Warren: For information purposes. The map just showed continuity with
existing plans. '
Councilman Johnson: So in essence what you're saying is, the second quarter
this year, this median may be built and it's not dependant upon, the TH 5
26 1
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I • City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
IIintersection may be 1990 before it's built?
II • Gary Warren: We have a wear coarse, as most of us are aware, that has to go
down and finish things up on that section down there.
Councilman Johnson: The money's been approved. The construction plans have
been approved. It's ready to go.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, then with that information I would move that,
I don't know the timeline. Our next meeting?
Mayor Chmiel: Whichever. Say February 13th.
Councilwoman Dimler: Okay, by the February 13th meeting, that we reconsider
Mr. Klingelhutz' situation with the median regarding access to his business.
Councilman Workman: I'll second that.
Mayor Chmiel: -Co you understand the motion Gary?
Gary Warren: Yes I do. Time is going to be a problem, bringing agenda items
back immediately with our losing one day.
Mayor Chmiel: Okay, move it to the next one?
Councilwoman Dimler: Sure, February 27th then.
II 1
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to reconsider
Mr. Klingelhutz' situation with the median regarding access to his business by
the February 27th City Council meeting. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A CONVENIENCE STORE WITH GAS PUMPS AND ND A CAR WASH,
NORTHEAST CORNER OF TH 5 AND TH 101, AMOCO OIL COMPANY.
Steve Hanson: You may recall that this item had been tabled towards the end of
the year and subsequently a moratorium was put into effect concerning
convenience stores. The applicants have requested that this item be brought
back up before Council for your consideration. I won't go through the whole
staff report. It was prepared for the end of the year but at that time, staff
had recommended approval of the site plan as submitted with several conditions
which are detailed in your memorandum. Staff is still recommending approval of
that recommendation that was made previously.
Mayor Chmiel: Is someone from Amoco going to make a presentation to the
Council?
I Jim Fillipi: Thank you Mr. Mayor. My name is Jim Fillipi with North Star
Engineering Consultants and I'm representing Amoco Oil Company with the
application. The application which you have before you which we are presenting,
is one for the raising and rebuilding of the existing Amoco facility at the
corner of TH 5 and TH 101 northeast at the top of the map. It would involve in
' 27
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 . II
the process removal of all the underground tanks and piping systems to cleaning
of the site and replacing it with a facility which would have 4 gas pumps on
either side of the small store covered by the canopy with a single stall roll
over drive thru car wash located along the north side of the property south of
the sanitary sewer that runs through there. Underground storage tanks would be
located here with two driveway accesses. The southerly one being an existing
access. The northerly one being the reconstructed access. Everything which is
I
in white here is shown as a future and it's been dropped from the plan and would
be included as landscaping in the proposal that you have before you and would
result in roughly, landscaping percentage of 57% over the entire site. We have
II
adequate distance both in the front and along TH 5 and have been in contact with
MnDot regarding any future plans which they may have. We have met several times
over the past several months with staff to work out the issues regarding this
site. Both in terms of driveway access and you will find a letter in your
packet consistent with staff recommendation number 3 in which the letter has
been provided that should the median which goes in along TH 101 have the single
median cut here, these two driveways would be eliminated and the single driveway
II
just opposite the median cut opposite of 79th would be installed at Amoco's
expense by itself. _ We've also provided on the site plan in the location right
here, at the City's request, a waste oil facility as a public service to the
residents of the city. We would like to comment that this is being provided as II
a service. It is for waste oil only. We would like to have the cooperation of
the residents of say gasoline, flamnables and paints don't get put in there.
Also, that as the oil is disposed of, that it be kept clean and neat around
II
there because we can't get into an environmental problem situation. We'd like
to maintain that as long as it is not a problem from that standpoint. This is a
waste oil depository. Other than that, I don't believe I've got anything else '
to present unless there are any questions, I'd be glad to answer them.
Randy Thompson: My name is Randy Thompson. I'm an attorney and I represent the
current operater of the Amoco Service Station, Gary Brown. Gary Brown has
operated that location for 18 years. He has 20 employees including 5 mechanics.
I have not had the opportunity to review the staff report that was prepared for
you and I apologize for that but my understanding is that a moratorium was
II
planced on the elimination of service bays back in December and we would ask
that the City Council continue that moratorium. There are presently, by my
understanding, 3 full service facilities in Chanhassen and one is already under,
II
has plans for elimination by spring. If Mr. Brown's facility is converted to
this convenience store, there will be only one full service gasoline facility in
the city of Chanhassen. I believe that, I think it likely at least, that there
is some information in the staff report indicating that the moratorium may be II
defective in terms of it's Constitutionality but I wish to inform the Council
that I sent last week to the City Attorney, Roger Knutson, several cases
outlining decisions by State and Federal Courts upholding moratoriums of the
II
sort that are under consideration here because they're based upon reasons of
public health, safety and general welfare. For example, there was a recent
decision just in 1988 by the Village of Hoffman Estates. It happens to be in
II
Illinois, against Amoco Oil Company upholding a moratorium for there being the
elimination of service bays and they cited such matters as the fact of property
maintenance of motor vehicles is essential to the conservation of gasoline and
the control of pollution. That the residents of the Village rely upon '
automobile service stations for the maintenance and care of their vehicles.
That full service operaters have faithfully for many years served the residents
of the Village and established good will with their clientele. That the Village I
28
I , City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Uhas high density use roads within it that generate heavy traffic requiring
services, full service stations. That these full service stations are one of
the only sources of road service and towing service for motor vehicles and
that's particularly pertinent in Minnesota, although the winter is somewhat
moderate at the present time. When cold weather strikes, getting your car
started is an important public service. Conversion of existing full service
' stations, the self service will result in the loss of jobs. And they have
several other reasons listed. Another one that's very important is, that full
service stations meet the specific needs of the elderly and the handicapped. I
' don't know how many of you are aware of it but there is a specific statute in
Minnesota that says if you're handicapped, you can pull up to a full service
station at the full service pumps, have it pumped in at self service prices.
' This type of facility is not going to offer any of those things to the elderly
or the handicapped in the City of Chanhassen. There's another public safety
issue. I guess Jay Leno, the comedian has referred to these all night
convenience stores as one stop robbery shops and that masks a difficult truth
' which is a reality that employees of these 24 hour convenience store, gas
stations have the fourth highest murder rate following policemen, taxi drivers
and security guards. There is a health and safety risk involved. We would
' propose that the issue of the moratorium, if it's Constitutionality is of
question to the City Council member, be sent back to the City Attorney for
further study. I would suggest that Amoco and any other interested parties be
offered the opportunity to submit position papers to the City Attorney for his
' consideration on the issue so that you can have an opinion based upon all of the
available cases. 4Ve would also request that there be public hearings on the
health, safety and welfare issues that affect the community by the elimination
I of this facility. Finally, we would propose to the City Council that the
elimination of the service facility at this location is really unnecessary.
Amoco owns a piece of property and I think they pointed to it as landscaping,
' that Mr. Brown has offered to buy from them and build a service facility to
operate in connection with the convenience store making in effect a super
service station. This isn't some wild proposal. Amoco has done it with other
operaters in other communities here in the Twin Cities market so there are
alternatives to preserving automobile service and upgrading the facility if
Amoco wants to make that sort of investment. For that reason, we would ask the
Council to table the proposal at this time. Thank you.
' Mayor Chmiel: Is there any discussion from Council or any questions that they
may have?
' Councilman Boyt: If I could make a comment. The moratorium was not stopping
gas stations from building without service bays. It was aimed at convenience
stores.
' Randy Thompson: I think my comments would apply to that too.
Councilman Boyt: Well I think what you're saying is that it would be possible,
in your opinion, to pass a moratorium on service stations without service bays
or gas stations without service bays. My point Mr. Thompson is that that was
not the moratorium we passed. That's my only comment at this time.
Councilman Johnson: If we're at Council discussion on this one, then there is a
little history. Two actions taken. The first action was we tabled this and
tthen later that evening we passed a moratorium on convenience stores. It was
' 29
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
not one action. The moratorium was under a Council presentation presented by me
that wasn't a moratorium as I started but it ended up that way. There was
discussion of convenience stores and it ended up as a moratorium of convenience '
stores. Whether this is a convenience store is another matter. Our ordinance
does not define convenience store as I can find anywhere so it is now up to us
to decide is Amoco a convenience store and what is a convenience store? What
should a convenience store be? Should a convenience store be someplace that
sells soup and crackers and all the convenient household its that attract
people to come from their home, run out to the convenience store versus going to
a supermarket? Or is a convenience store anyplace that sells convenient items?
That would mean that Gary Brown's is a convenience store because he sells gum
and a few other things in there. This particular proposal, which I think Amoco
is already latched unto and I was surprised it wasn't in their presentation, is
that their shop is not really a convenience store at all. What they have is a
small sales area, larger than what Gary does but a small sales area that's for
the traveler. It is not designed, Holiday sells a lot of milk and a lot of
other things. Fishing tackle and a lot of other things to attract you into
their store as a convenience store. They've got video tape rentals. That's a
convenience store. " What I've seen at other Amoco sites like this, the one up by
Hwy 10 and 35W, up in New Brighton, it's candy and cookies and crackers. It's
the type of stuff a construction worker might stop in and grab as he's filling
up his cars. Impulse buying type stuff. Therefore, I think this Council needs
to decide what is the definition of a convenience store and whether this site
meets that definition. One of the reasons I voted for the tabling last time was
I believe this Council will give Amoco a fair hearing and I didn't particularly,
I thought it should be delayed until this year so we could hear this. Those are I
two. Now I'd like to ask a question. You're talking about raising and
replacing it and completely cleaning the site. Replacing the tanks and
completely cleaning the site. What type of timeframe are you looking at to do
this work and how does that interface with your tardiness with the MPCA on the
site clean-up plans you were asked for in December of 1987 and have not yet, by
December of 1988 provided?
Jim Fillipi: I'm not aware of the specific clean-up plans you're asking for. 1
We don't believe, I've been informed by Amoco, that we are tardy on that. The
total timeframe here is approximately 65 to 90 days from the start of
construction to completely remove all underground tanks and piping and rebuild
the site and have it back in operation.
Councilman Johnson: Has Amoco told you what MPCA wants to be done out there and
what they are going to require you, the type of consultants that are going to
have to be on site? The type of testing that's going to have to be done when
you remove those tanks? '
Jim Fillipi: We've been through that a number of times in the past on various
sites. That type of monitoring and control and testing. Removal and testing on
site. There will be samples taken and we won't proceed until any problem is
completely taken out.
Councilman Johnson: Okay, did you meet your January 15th deadline? I
Jim Fillipi: I'm not aware of a January 15th deadline.
I
30 1
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
I —
Councilman Johnson: It was in the letter you presented in December. It had a
--January 15th deadline for providing the name of your consultants who's going to
II I develop your plans for a mediation at this site. It also wanted a wreckage
- review that was asked for on December 4th of 1987 and at that time you were
._ given until_ January 27th of 1988 to provide that information. As of January
II - 15th, well, actually it's the 13th, Mr. Byrose was informing me that you were
asking for an extension.
- Fillipi: My information is that an extension has been approved.
I -Jim
Councilman Johnson: He did approve the extension? Okay. One condition, that
_ when we do vote on this, that I would like to add is a 14th condition. I'm not
II making the motion right now but when we get to that point in our discussion,
that all construction on the site is premised on staying in compliance with MPCA
schedules. That is you get behind the MPCA schedule, if they've approved
I February 15th for this information and it's February 16th and no information is
__;_there, there's no construction. This goes to a halt. And if they say you have
monitoring wells in by June 1st and there's no moni.tori.ng .wells in by June 1st,
—there's no construction. It Just halts.
IJim Fillipi: We don't care. There's no problem with that.
II - Councilman Johnson: When I talked to MPCA, some of them were a little more
candid than they should have been on where they're going here. Amoco has a lot
of sites across the State they're working on and this is one that got obviously
I lost in the cluster. This December 4th letter I keep referring to actually had,
from what they tell. me, 15 to 20 sites on it that they were asking for
information on. Unfortunately at that time they weren't again informing the
cities involved in these 15 to 20 sites, what they were doing. At this point,
II they are now informing the city. Gary Warren is being copied on all the
correspondence so we will be keeping a close eye on what's going on here. Up
until recently, we did not realize that MPCA was even concerned at this site and
II they had been asking for information. Those are my main questions. I guess the
main thing is for us to decide, is this a convenience store or not?
Councilman Boyt: I have a couple points. One of them. I appauld your
1 ....::�agreenent to have an oil recycling collection point. That's marvelous. My
-_,_:,Y problem that I don't think has been addressed is what's going to happen to the
gasoline that spills when we fill our cars with gasoline?
II _Jim Fillipi.: That is normally an extremely small amount and it is generally
..., -`evaporated prior to it's running. The gasoline fueling area is covered by the
II -- canopy with the long concrete so it's not going to involve deteriorating. ..
Councilman Boyt: Okay, I'm glad it's falling on concrete but, that may even be
required, but I'm interested in that it doesn't all evaporate. This isn't a
I problem unique to you but it is a problem that the City sort of ignores in that
the gasoline that doesn't evaporate, waits around for a rain and then it goes
into our lakes. It goes through a holding pond system. Maybe it settles into
I the bottom of the holding pond but it's a problem that we just generally ignore
and where it may only be a cupful from one car, it adds up and I don't think
anybody addresses it.
II
1 31
Jig
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Jim Fillipi: There is also, part of this plan and we are bringing in trunk
sewer based on city comments, from a point here to the City's storm sewer system
along State Highway 101. The particular manholes and drainage on this
particular site runs approximately through the canopy at this point, turning to
the back and to the front. It is collected and taken via a catch basin to the
storm sewer system. A typical practice from the Watershed Districts for those
catch basins is that you provide a 3 foot sump below the. ..of the outside pipe
and that acts as a sediment trap and then additionally, the pipe outlet pipe has
a T with a cover on it which also skims disposable material prior to and
provides a primary water quality treatment prior to that entering the storm ,
sewer system and that is incorporated on the storm sewer plans so that will be
contained.
Councilman Boyt: It's nice to hear that you've got sort of a state of the art 1
system. A concern that was brought up by the Planning Commission was outside
display of merchandise. How was that resolved by them? I think they just
passed that onto us as I recall their Minutes.
Mayor Chmiel: I think there was one by Mr. B mings that had that specific
question addressed. '
Councilman Boyt: What are your plans for outside storage of items to be sold?
Jim Fillipi: If there's any outside storage, it would be confined to the area 1
of the sidewalk underneath the canopy directly in front of the building. There
are two handicap ramps on the back of the building so that puts the sidewalk up
to the door must be clear at all times so there may be a few displays on the '
catwalk here but none of the backside of that and nothing on the sides or around
the perimeter of the site.
Councilman Boyt: Okay, and the permit process for the BH district says outside '
display of merchandise for sale is a conditional use. Is there an application
for a conditional use permit here?
Jim Fillipi: No there's not and we would hold that off.
Councilman Boyt: So then I assume that you're not going to store anything
outside on display?
Jim Fillipi: Correct.
Councilman Boyt: Then I think we should add a condition along the lines of what
Jay was talking about indicating that quite clearly we are not giving approval
for anything that would be conceived as a convenience store. We haven't exactly
defined that, as Mr. Johnson pointed out but I think we all know what the gist
of it is.
Jim Fillipi: We do believe we are a motor fuel station. That's our primary I
product.
Councilman Boyt: Those were my concerns.
017
Councilman Workman: I was a little confused as far as, we've got two basic
issues here. We've got a moratorium and we've got approval of a site plan. It '
32 1
II I
• City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
II-- appears to me as though the moratorium um ezther has to be left in place or removed
t before we can really make a decision on the site plan. We're talking about
Iapproval of this whole site but we have a moratorium on some potentially. . .
Councilman Johnson: But is this a convenience store? The moratorium is not on
I -gas stations. It's on -convenience stores and this Council now has to, before we
can decide the point of the moratorium, that's the first issue. Is this a
-convenience store? I'm ready to say they're not a convenience store personally.
ICouncilman Workman: We could sit here all night and try and decide that.
Obviously, I don't think we're going to decide that. I don't know what I have
II to draw from to decide whether it's a convenience store or not. What can I draw
from? What does Webster's Dictionary say? I don't know. I would just as soon
see somebody that's been decided by the Court...
II _ Councilman Johnson: I'd like to hear from our City Planner on what generally
the planning group, what did you get taught in college? I don't know, did you
take convenience store 101?
I Steve Hanson: They didn't have convenience stores when I went to college.
That's something I think a lot of municipalities have looked at at various
stages. I've done some research on trying to get a handle on how people have
II done that. The area that I've found that's done the most on it and I haven't
gotten a copy of their ordinance yet, is Los Angeles apparently recently went
through a long ordeal on doing that and I got that information from the St. Paul
I ;- planning office because they were looking at the issue at one point in time and
then dropped it and didn't go ahead with it. The thing that is difficult is
trying to define that use based on what someone is selling inside the business.
You're opening up a Pandora's box in trying to define it that way. One way is
II looking at the size of the area that's devoted to that retail sales, if you
will. If you were to look at that and what they're proposing here, they have
approximately 1,0001 square feet in that building. If you look at the
I SuperAmerica station that the City has that's being constructed now, they've got
roughly 3,500 square feet and I think there is a difference from that standpoint
on looking at convenience. I think clearly the SuperAmerica store is closer to
II a 7 11, that type of an outlet that's doing that and then also selling gas. I
,:;'think on this particular application, maybe the one thing that is a little
dzsturbing when you say that it's not a convenience, is some of the signage
which calls it a Food Store. So you can look at it a lot of different ways on
1 show somebody advertises it. What they stock in the store. I don't think
there's a clear, concise answer where I could say that this particular outlet is
' a convenience store or it's a grocery store or it's a gas station. It's just
I there's nothing that I've seen that's a clear cut definition and clearly nothing
:in- our ordinance.
II Councilman Boyt: Tom, I would argue that all we have to do is just simply
indicate in the conditions that a convenience store operation is not allowed.
If they want to come back and apply for that once we get our moratorium off, I
think like any other business, they're welcome to do that.
II1 Councilman Johnson: I think further, if that goes as we say, build your gas
station, don't sell convenience items, I think we're under the responsibility to
II define a convenience store in a reasonable manner and that would be a question
put to our Planning Commission. Say define convenience stores and bring it back
II 33
°�City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 1
to us and see what comes out as convenience stores.
Councilman Boyt: I would like to move approval of this item so that we move
along with the recommendations stated by staff. Striking item number 5. Since
there is no convenience store, we can't have an item related to a convenience
store and adding item 14 for clarity that there shall be no outside display or
storage of merchandise for sale. Striking 5 and adding 14 that there will be no
outside display or storage of merchandise for sale.
Councilman Workman: Didn't you have 14 already? '
Councilman Boyt: Did you have 14 already Jay?
Councilman Johnson: Except it's your motion. I was looking to have a no 1
construction as long as you're in non-compliance with the MPCA schedules or any
permits issued by the MPCA.
Councilman Boyt: You're saying they have to have all necessary permits?
Councilman Johnson: They have to provide a remediation schedule for
investigation of the possible soil contamination at that site. If they are out
of compliance with that schedule, they have to stop whatever activities they're
doing. If they're under construction and the MPCA says you have to put in
ground water monitoring wells and they don't do it, then the City will say,
you're out of compliance with your site plan review, you stop construction.
Mayor Chmiel: Maybe if we had item number 14 saying that the applicant will...
removal of tanks, have such reviewed by the Fire Marshall, inspection by MPCA of
any fuel spills causing contamination of soils.
Councilman Johnson: But the MPCA is asking for a lot more. They haven't been I
given it after over a year of asking for it. They haven't been given it. I'm
trying to help the MPCA get it because right now, this is what Amoco wants.
We've got the candy that Amoco wants and we control that candy where MPCA
doesn't.
Councilman Boyt: You're simply saying, in compliance with the MPCA right?
Councilman Johnson: Yes.
Councilman Boyt: I'll accept both of those points. Review by the Fire Marshall '
and related city staff and in compliance with the MPCA. So we now have 16
points? No outside display. Compliance with the MPCA. Review by Fire Marshall
and related staff and it's probably adjusted back one because we struck 5. That
would be my motion.
Councilman Johnson: Bill? I'd like to say, instead of striking 5, just get rid
of the word convenience stores and say, only two wall signs shall be permitted.
Whether it's a convenience store or not, our sign ordinance only allows two wall
signs. I'll second his motion by the way.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess one of the things that I have a concern of, I wrote a
letter to Amoco Corporation, Mr. Richard Morrow who is the Chief Executive
Officer for Amoco. The letter was written on January 5th of this month and this
34
i
II = City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
IIyear and I have yet not received a response to that letter. In the letter '
P er we re
asking that, because of some of the concerns that we had with the automotive
I _1 service provided and needs within the City for the public health and safety of
the community, we feel that having this kind of a facility is indeed a direct
benefit to the community. Whether it be Mr. Brown or whoever, it's not the
' concern of ours. Our main concern is the service availability that we can have
for this particular station. And none of these specifics yet have been
addressed by your company. Because of that, I feel too that some response
_should be gotten before we proceed any further, even with this proposal.
' Amoco Representative: If I might sir, I believe the letter was responded to
dated Friday of last week. My office provided your City Manager with sufficient
' copies for the Council in response to your letter.
Mayor Chmiel: The only letter that we had received, or at least that I have
here, is one that was dated January 20th by Mr. G.L. Clark, District Manager.
Amoco Representative: That's the letter.
Mayor Chmiel: I was hoping I would get my response directly from your Officer
of your company rather than your District Manager. I think it would be very
apropos for your company to address the issues from your Chief Executive Officer
- rather than coming in as it did. -
Amoco Representative: If I might just take a couple minutes of your time.
Mr. Morrow is the Chairman of the Board of Amoco Corporation. Mr. Clark is the
II Chief Executive Officer, if you will, and District Manager for the 5 state
marketing area... Mr. Morrow delegated the responsibility of responding to Mr.
Clark.
Mayor Chmiel: Also, the letter we had written to Mr. Larry Thomas, President of
the Company.
' __Amoco Representative: Same thing. Delegated down.
._Councilman Johnson: I think we ought to thank the two, Mr. Morrow and what was
1 the other?
Mayor Chmiel: Mr. Thomas. •
Councilman Johnson: Mr. Thomas for delegating his response down to Mr. Clark
and thank him for providing us no additional information.
' Mayor Chmiel: Okay, we have a motion before us and it's been seconded.
Councilman Workman: Can I discuss just one more thing? I guess I'm not exactly
' sure again, where we're at. I guess where is our moratorium at? It stands?
Councilman Johnson: We're saying no convenience store at this point.
Mayor Chmiel: Our moratorium is against no convenience stores.
Randy Thompson: Our firm does a fair amount of work in this business and this
' thing is going to be called an Amoco Food Shop. It's what is considered a C
' 35
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
store, convenience store in the industry. I don't think you can approve this
type of facility and claim that it's not a convenience. In fact it is a
convenience store and I think the issue has to be addressed squarely. It may ,
differ in size from other convenience stores but it's clearly what the industry
considers a convenience store and that's what it's name suggests. Amoco Food
Shop.
Councilman Johnson: Food Shop? I just don't see how Food Shop is a convenience
store. I think that maybe we should, condition 17 would be, more specifically
say, it shall not be a convenience store. Basically, or was that your 14? ,
Councilman Boyt: I think that's 14. That's one of them.
Councilman Johnson: So it specifically says it can't be a convenience store and '
we shall define what a convenience store is prior to them actually occupying
this site.
Councilman Boyt: I guess we don't have that. We have outside storage. There's
no condition about it.
Mayor Chmiel: No, that's not been made.
Councilwoman Dimler: I have a question at this point. Does that mean they
can't sell food or drink or any kind?
Councilman Boyt: I don't think so.
Councilman Johnson: It depends upon how we define convenience store. It's
going to take than several months to build this. In that interim time, we're
going to be trying to define convenience store. I'm sure they're going to be
here helping us define convenience store and other people are going to be trying
to help us define convenience store. We get a lot of help on these types of
issues.
Councilwoman Dimler: I guess at this point I'd just like to make a comment that
we do a lot of traveling and we always stop at the Amoco and we really
appreciate, especially when you're traveling at night, that you can get gas and
stop and get some pop and potato chips or whatever it is that you want. It is
really convenient.
Councilman Johnson: If it wasn't convenient, they wouldn't be in business. '
That doesn't make it a convenience store.
Councilman Boyt: Mr. Thompson, you seem to have worked out a definition of
convenience stores.
Randy Thompson: I have not worked out a working definition but I could do so. '
Councilman Boyt: I don't think we want to hire you to do that.
Randy Thompson: Within the industry this is... I
Councilman Boyt: I think you raise a good point when you say, if they're
advertising as a food shop, that has implications. Was that the sign you had
36 ,
II , City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
planned to put up? Amoco Food Shop?
I Jim Fillipi: That is typically a sign that appears on the facia. Again, that
may change depending on the convenience store. We certainly would think that we
could carry any item in there that the existing automotive service stations in
the community do carry and probably until you really get that definition worked
out, nothing more than that. And since that would appear to occur before
occupancy, we don't see a problem at this point.
' Councilman Boyt: It would be fairly typical for gas stations to have snack
items and pop but there is some sort of gray area here and identifying it as a
food shop to me sounds like we've not put a restaurant in the BH district that
happens to serve gasoline. That's not our intent. One of the things that goes
with any recommendation that we pass is our Minutes indicating intent. It
should be clear to Amoco and I suspect at some length to everyone in the room
that we intend that this service gasoline. My understanding is, given your nod,
' that you also intend, that that's the main function of this. So you probably
won't mind not calling it a food shop?
Jim Fillipi: For the moment, until the definitions are worked out, that's
right.
Councilman Boyt: Thank you. -
Mayor Chmiel: We have a motion before us. It's been so long I almost forgot
what it is.
I1- Councilman Johnson: Mr. Mayor, I just realized, we don't actually have the full
site plans before us. What happened to the drawings? All we got was the
' report. We don't have the blueprints that show us the landscaping and
everything else.
Councilman Boyt: We did have those.
Steve Hanson: You received than previously.
Councilman Johnson: You and I did in December. , Did the other members of the
Council see the full site plan?
Mayor Chmiel: No. Other than reading what's contained in the Minutes as to the
' ' `-requirements on landscaping, lighting, signage and grading and drainage and so
_,ton. -
-Councilman Johnson: There was a very large issue on the variance on the signs
:'and basically here we're denying that variance.
' Mayor Chmiel: Would you restate that .Bill, one more time. _ _
Councilman Boyt: The motion as made, in case I slip up, let me know if we've
' missed anything here. Where you changed item 5 so that it says, there will be
only two wall signs permitted. We then made no modifications to other
stipulations in this but we added several. 14, no outside display. I believe
L-- it was 15 that said compliance with MPCA and 16 was review by Fire Marshall.
37
--City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 1
Councilman Johnson: And appropriate city staff.
Councilman Boyt: And 17 locked it up by saying there shall be no convenience
store. '
Mayor Chmiel: In addition to that, it will be required by LTBC to obtain a
permit from the City for demolition. I don't think that should be a condition. I
That's part of it, but just so that's aware.
Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to approve Site Plan Review I
#88-11 with the following conditions:
1. The self service car wash will require site plan approval. '
2. The two future gas pumps and extension of the gas canopy are approved as
part of this site plan. '
3. The applicant shall furnish in writing a statement that Amoco Oil company
is willing to reduce the number of entrances and exits to the site to a
total number of one if MaDot grants the City a median cut for the proposed
island on State Trunk Highway 101. This entrance would fall directly in
line with the centerline of West 79th Street. The costs for the
reconsturction would be at Amoco's sole expense. This statement shall be
provided to the City prior to final site plan approval. Plans for the
central access shall be provided and approved by staff prior to its
construction. '
4. The most southerly access shall not be located further south than the
existing southerly access and shall be designed for full traffic movement
(right-in and right-out) .
5. Only two wall signs shall be permitted.
6. The gas canopy shall not be permitted any signage including the Amoco
stripe name.
7. The applicant shall provide the tank for used oil and shall allow it to be '
open to the public.
8. The applicant shall remove the cars, trucks, etc., stored on the easterly ,
portion of the site.
9. The plans shall be revised to include the proper storm sewer facilities
which connect to the City's storm sewer system. The proposed curb cut near
State Highway 5 will not be accepted.
10. A revised erosion control plan shall be submitted to the City Engineer for ,
approval prior to final site plan approval.
11. Details for the construction of the curb radius for the northerly access '
will be provided for approval by the City Engineer prior to final approval.
38
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City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
II12. The proposed buildings shall be moved five feet to the south such that
adequate maintenance for the existing utilities may be provided.
13. The applicant shall provide the City Engineer with details regarding the
inflammable waste separator prior to construction.
14. There shall be no outside display or storage of merchandise for sale.
15. Compliance with the MPCA.
16. Review by the Fire Marshall and other related City staff.
17. There shall be no convenience store on the premise.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
WETLAND ALTERATION PERMIT TO CREATE A POND IN A CLASS B WETLAND, 1551 LYMAN
BLVD., GEORGE DORSEY.
rSteve Hanson: This is a request for a Wetland Permit request to upgrade the
existing Class B wetland and create a pond in the area where the wetland
presently exists. The property is roughly 30 acres. The applicants have their
home located in this area. The Planning Commission reviewed this and looked at
the six typical conditions that we would look at as far as creating a pond as
fish and wildlife utilize it. At that time, there was a consideration on
I :1- whether this particular area is, whether the shrub should be included all around
the pond area. At that time, there was discussion on whether that should be
included. We did contact the Fish and Wildlife Service and they recommend that
the shrub area not be included on this particular application and the best way
to handle this would be without that shrub planting.. . Paul Burke from the Fish
and Wilflife confirmed that that planting is not really appropriate in this
'
particular case. With that, I would complete my comments unless you have some
specific questions.
Councilman Johnson: One thing that was discussed at the Planning Commission
' was, what are they talking about planting and all. Did you check to see if this
is at the library next door?
' Steve Hanson: I have not yet.
Councilman Johnson: Okay. Anyway, I happened to be at B. Dalton's the other
day and this is the book, $6.95 from our Minnesota Department of Natural
Resources that talks about this. I've been trying to find this publication and
it's right out there on the front sales counter as I walked by the other day.
Basically the plantings that we talk about is to provide a little food and
' habitat and it can be done around. Now I have not gone out to this exact site.
You can't see it from the road and I didn't go out to the site. If Paul Burke
has reviewed this and says there is adequate cover in the area, adequate food in
I the area, that it's not necessary to add some of these plantings. I've been
looking this over as a cheap and very good book. The Landscape Arboretum can
also assist in finding it. I would encourage you, if you're really concerned
about building a wildlife pond, invest $6.95 or go to the library and check this
book out and review it but I don't think we're going to put it as a condition
' 39
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
here. Like I say, I have not really reviewed this in person and there probably
is, in that area, enough foliage, enough cover. If this was out in the middle
of a farm field and there was no food or coverage, then we definitely would be '
looking at this. I would have liked to have had some photographs.
Councilwoman Dimler: I have no comments on this. '
Councilman Workman: No comments.
Councilman Boyt: We generally approve improvements to wetlands so I support
this.
Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded that the City Council approve
Wetland Alteration Permit #88-16, subject to the plans stamped "Received
December 12, 1988". All voted in favor and the motion carried. I
WETLAND ALTERATION-PERMIT TO DREDGE SILT ACCUMULATION FROM AN EXISTING CHANNEL
IN A CLASS A WETLAND LOCATED GENERALLY SOUTH OF THE LOTS FRONTING ON WASHTA BAY
ROAD, MINNEWASHTA MANOR CHANNEL HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION.
Steve Hanson: This also is a wetland permit. It's a lot different than the one ,
we just looked at. Essentially what the applicants are requesting, to dredge
out an existing channel. The channel that they're looking at dredging out
presently exists in this location. The area has silted in over the years and
they are asking that they be allowed to come in and dredge this particular area
here shown in yellow. The cross sections for that are attached on the next
sheet. They, in going through the process, had come in and we looked at several
different areas where they could dispose of the materials they had taken out of
the site. When we were going through those particular sites, the initial one
they had picked out to utilize was a Class A wetlands so we went through a fair
amount of education process on where those materials could be deposited. What
we came up with was a site located in this area. To orient you, this particular
channel is shown up here in this location. Relatively close to where the
dredging area will take place. Initially they looked at an area right up in
here before finally settling on this area. This particular area up here was
designated to have part of a wetland area. That area then tapers off and that
wetland that actually is higher than the area we're looking at dumping on.
I shouldn't use the word dumping. That sounds terrible but where we're putting
that fill material. They will be doing erosion control around that area. There
is a swale that comes through this particular area that carries drainage from
the wetland area in this location and it drains through, helps the drainage from
TH 7. The access into this particular- site, they will be working this winter.
They want to do it while the lake is still frozen...the edge of the lakeshore
here up onto this site to the location to dispose of the materials. We have
gone out to the property with the Fish and Wildlife Service and. . .to try and
find the right location and they, in looking at it, agreed that this was the
best location for that material. They also felt, when we were out in the field,
that actually that material may improve that area and not be a detriment to the
wetland areas. With that I would conclude my remarks unless you have any
questions.
I
40 1
di
11 I
, City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 V w
I . Mayor Chmiel: Does the applicant wish to address any of the issues that were
just previously discussed? Thank you.
1 Councilman Johnson: I think we have a unique opportunity with the extreme low
lake levels we have right now, this is the time to do it. If it's going to be
done, it's going to be an improvement. It's going to improve the fish habitat.
I That's open water. It's a public channel that anybody can go back there and go
for the crappy. Right now you can't, from what I understand, unless you've got
a long boat and a pole to push it through the mud, this last winter. So I think
Ithis is a good needed project and should be approved.
Councilman Boyt: I've got a question about the dredging. The design of the
channel you're dredging. I notice the sides are vertical. Can you tell me why
you decided on vertical sides?
Harry Niemela: They just, when Minnetonka Dredgi.ng.. .actually have done. There
IIis a 2 foot horizontal slope to 1 foot of depth. ..
Councilman Boyt:_ 50% grade.
II -
Harry Niemela: ...Basically it's just showing that that's generally how they...
Councilman Workman: What were the, it's kind a silt that's going to be left?
IRight? They're going to be taking the silt out and depositing it on land.
il Harry Niemela: Correct.
IICouncilman Workman: After this dries, what do we have? What would this
property be used for or could be used for?
IIHarry Niemela: You mean the disposal area?
Councilman Workman: The disposal area.
IHarry Niemela: It would just be black dirt.
II Councilman Workman: It's not currently being used but what could it be used for
zn the future? Garden?
II J�Larry Brown-: ` One comment, 'we would expect that-this'-area would be revegetated
' :-with some sort Of seeding. Obviously the erosion control is there on a
temporary measure until vegetative cover is established. This type of soil
being placed there certainly the homeowner or future homeowners would have a
I very tough time in trying to locate a structure on that type of soil. It's for
garden uses or whatever. }
:Councilman' Workman: So it might have to be moved out of there at a later date
I again? ' -
- Larry Brown: If somebody chooses to build a structure on there and does soil
I ( borings, yes I would say that.
Councilman Workman: But that's not our problem?
II
II41
_;
IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Larry Brown: No. The applicant can verify this but we do have consent from the
owner of the lot. Yes, we have written consent from them.
Councilwoman Dimler: That was my question. It said you received a letter but
it didn't say what the letter said but they are in agreement with it. What's on
the property? I
Steve Hanson: I think there's only one single family residence on it.
Mayor Chmiel: I guess I feel that this is going to be a benefit for the ,
citizens within that area. I would strongly make that recommendation and
entertain a motion that the City Council approves Wetland Alteration Permit
#88-17 based on a plan stamped "Received December 16, 1988 and December 29,
1988" subject to the following conditions. One, the erosion control shall be
reviewed to reflect the City's standards for the Type II erosion control, staked
hay bales and snow fence prior to the commencement of any construction. Two,
the applicant shall provide copies of the approved permits as may be required
from DNR, Watershed District and Corps of Engineers for this project. Is there
a second? -
Councilwoman Dimler: I'll second that.
Councilman Boyt: I would like to ask you to accept a third condition. That
reseeding with staff approved seed be completed within 7 days of the completion
of dredging.
[11
Mayor Chmiel: If that's going to be done during the winter, I don't think
they're going to be able to seed in the winter.
Councilman Boyt: Well, as soon as the ground is unfrozen.
Harry Niemela: It has to dry.
Councilman Johnson: It's going to freeze during the winter. This deposit is I
going to be very wet.
Harry Niemela: It has to dry out in the summer. '
Councilman Johnson: Compact.
Harry Niemela: Right. And then it's graded off, final graded off and then
reseeded down...
Councilman Boyt: I'd just like to have a time line. I want to see something '
growing on this ground quickly.
Harry Niemela: As quickly as can be done, we intend to do that. ..because it '
does have to dry out so we can get the machinery on it to level it off. It has
to be dry enough to do that.
Mayor Chmiel: How about if you just put spring of 1989 that this be seeded?
Larry Brown: Point of clarification if I may? I guess due to the logical
weather pattern, barring any unforeseen blizzards, we would hope that something
42 1
I . City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 r
would be down by, say May 15th as a compromise. Is that acceptable?
II Councilman Boyt: Sure.
Councilman Johnson: I also have a suggestion that may work out. Is that
erosion control must be maintained until vegetative cover is established. A
vegetative cover shall be established during the 1989 growing season. Because
May 15th, we may still be too muddy. Too wet to do the final grade.
ICouncilman Boyt: I can live with that.
Councilman Johnson: I don't think you can put a date.
' Harry Niemela: Our intentions are to seed it down and erosion control, contain
what is there. That's just our intentions.
Mayor Chmiel: The three conditions, you basically understand them?
Harry Niemela: . We understand them.
Councilman Johnson: So would you like to modify your motion and second to
include the condition 3 that all erosion control be maintained until such time
' as vegetative cover is established in 1989?
Mayor Chmiel: Very good.
II
Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to approve Wetland Alteration
Permit #88-17 based on the plans stamped "Received December 16, 1988 and
December 29, 1988" subject to the following conditions:
1. The erosion control shall be reviewed to reflect the City's standards for
the Type II erosion control (staked hay bales and snow fence) prior to the
commencement of any construction.
2. The applicant shall provide copies of the approved permits as may be
required from DNR, Watershed District and Corps of Engineers for this
project.
3. Erosion control must be maintained until vegetative cover is established
during the 1989 growing season.
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
HERITAGE SQUARE APARTMENTS, REVIEW AND APPROVAL OF CONDITIONS OF SITE PLAN
APPROVAL TO BE MET PRIOR TO CONSTRUCTION.
Steve Hanson: This particular request is a follow up of essentially a previous
site plan that was approved by Planning Commission and the City Council with 11
conditions on that particular site plan. Three of which required them to submit
plans and bring them back before the Planning Commission and City Council
concerning three different issues. The three issues being, facia and signage
' plans, detailed lighting plans and detailed sound proofing standards for the
43
_ -L C1ty Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 ,
structure. The plan that I've put up here now is the plan that's been revised
since the Planning Commission based on some comments that were raised at that
particular meeting. I'd like to point a couple of those out. First of all, the
lighting standards shown on here, the specific locations were changed somewhat
based on reduced height for those lighting standards...and those have been
brought down to a 12 foot height with down directed lighting standards on the
poles. The other things shown on here, and this has really come up with
discussions with the next item on the agenda, that has to do with the sidewalks
being proposed. We have changed that and amended that sidewalk it is now
running down in this location. Previously it wrapped around here. The thought
being that this particular location provided a better access. It also provides 11
the means where we can go through the parking lot on the next project to get
access into that facility rather than bringing the people out into an area where
it's principle access into that commercial medical facility. The other plans ,
that I'd like to briefly go over. The first one we want to put up, it gives you
an idea of the type of sign that's going to be located on the property. On this
plan it's shown here, part of the recommendation of the Planning Commission was
that a sign be set back further from Chan View as well as from this access drive
and the change has been made on this particular plan...Planning Commission
meeting. Lastly, this particular plan shows the exterior materials being used
on the building. It's proposed to have lap siding on these first two floors.
Cedar shake on the third floor. Asphalt shingles. Cedar trim areas and then a
round faced block base on the building. Also there was a discussion at the
Planning Commission about the use of brick on the side. The applicant indicated '
they may want to add some of that. They're still in the process of determing
whether that had been budgeted. ..other than if they can work it into their
numbers, they would like to be able to do that. The last thing on here has to
do with sound proofing requirements and that was a concern, I believe made by
City Council during the site plan process. They have submitted information on
the types of sound grading assemblies that they will be using which are, for the
most part, typical sound gradings that you use in an apartment building. The
architect is here and probably can address that a little better. The
recommendations on the particular application are for approval of the
information submitted. That is that the lighting be directed down on the
property so it is not glaring on the adjacent property. Number 2, that the
applicant work with staff to minimize the sound transmission and there are some
techniques that have been identified by the building department to minimize some
of the sounds beyond what is shown in the standards and that has to do with
where you locate electrical boxes and how many utilities and closests and that
type of thing and adding extra sheets of sheet rock on the walls. Then thirdly,
is a continuation of the design...that have been used in the downtown area
relative to sidewalk design, lighting design and signage. That concludes my
presentation at this time. The applicant is here and may wish to make a
presentation also. ,
Tom Zumwalde: My name is Tom Zumwalde, the architect on the project and I
really don't have anything to add. I might mention that we're about 3 days away
from completing construction drawings on this project...
Mayor Chmiel: I have one question. Have all the adjacent property owners
informed or did you meet with these people? 1
Brad Johnson: On this particular project, we had, a number of meetings with all
the neighborhood folks. In other words, we invited them over. Most of the '
44
1 City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
IIT- neighbors that relate to this project are apartment dwellers directly across the
street. .. We have addressed, I think the Planning Commission, somewhere back in
I the Minutes, there was a concern by one of the residents that...concern about
the landscaping... Concern about the traffic generation from that particular
site.. . I think we've had a lot of public.. . A lot in the two years. It's
been very well received by-most of the people.
Mayor Chmiel: Any questions?
' Councilman Boyt: Brad, how would this be different is Bernie Hanson's wasn't
there?
Brad Johnson: No different.
'
Councilman Bo t: It wouldn't change it although you changed it because he was
there?
Brad Johnson: No, that's the next one. The clinic.
11 ---Councilman Boyt: Excuse me for being too far out there in front. I do have a
.question about the amount of HRA money that's in this project. Don, were you
able to research that?
Don Ashworth: The question was passed along and I didn't. What it amounted to
is approximately 3 years of tax increment basically goes to the developers in
terms of helping making the project. Three years of increment where we've used
and set aside directly for subsidy to the individual renters. In other words,
they did not receive that money and approximate, I believe it's $200.00 per
month.
Brad Johnson: The subsidy is in the land right now. In fact, the building will
pay taxes of $5,000.00 and $9,000.00. With use of the increment. ..3 years of
increment for land right down and then we are also giving additionally, let's
say the 4 years increment to subsidize the rent primarily for the elderly.
Should we not have applicants over 55 that want to come in here.. . We then pay
that back. In other words, it's a loan to us so that we can subsidize the rent
and then later on.. .we turn around and give that back to the City. That's paid
back out of operating funds. The restriction on this project that the income to
the investors is about six hundred... That makes the whole thing feasible.
That allows them to...7 or 7 1/2 rate. This is kind of a unique particular
project because it fits into' Chanhassen. We have some elderly residents that
_._:are interested in having the- security place and there will be about 24 units set
aside for that purpose. Now should they not go to the elderly. ..
Councilman Boyt: The architect for this project has worked with the City and
will continue to work with the City to make this a very quiet apartment building
' , .,by the placement of closests.
Tom Zumwalde: We've already, on the drawings, indicated how we plan to treat
the party walls and floor separators and so forth and all of the things that are
being done to exceed the minimal standards. It's good quality construction. In
addition to that, Steve mentioned some other things that don't show up on the
drawings and will be in the specifications. These are items like off-setting
the electrical boxes and party walls and...
45
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Councilman Boyt: Very good. That was an important point of mine. The reason I
asked you the question Brad is I think the Council needs to recognize that we're
talking, people ask the question of where does the money go that the HRA raises
through tax increment? Well here's $500,000.00 to $600,000.00 of it. I think
we need this building but I think people need to understand that when the
Council and the HRA approve something like this, that we are investing the tax
dollars that that district generates.
Councilman Johnson: I just want to make sure that we do a follow through on
specifications. I've seen a lot of electricians work and they don't always 11
follow the drawings. They're going to run that wire and I think we want to
follow through that those boxes are located in accordance with your
specification. Now, the electrician on site does not have your specification.
He's got a little drawing that shows him to put a box in the room and a box to
the light and it's real convenient to put boxes back to back and that's not what
we want. I want to make sure that we have direction to staff to review that,
the specifications. The building inspectors to do a little extra on this one
because I think everybody at one time has lived in an apartment and did not like
listening to his next door neighbor.
Tom Zumwalde: We've seen that happen as well. For what it's worth, we will
have our own...on the site as well...
Councilman Johnson: I think this will be a welcome addition. After going
through those various apartments in that area, which I'm sure all of you all
have in the last year, you know there are quite a few elderly folks across the
street from here and this would be an improved situation for a lot of them as
far as the security type apartment versus an apartment that's a mix of elderly
and folks just out of school that may party a little more. Maybe a little more
compatible use. I'm really looking forward to this. I move we approve the
revised plans dated "Received January 18, 1989" subject to the following
conditions. Number 1, lighting of the sign shall be permanently directed only
on the sign. 2, the applicant shall work with staff to minimize sound ,
transmission between apartments. And 3, continue the sidewalk design, sidewalk
lighting and signage theme used in the downtown throughout the site.
Councilman Boyt: Second. ,
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Boyt seconded to approve the detailed ,
submittal plans stamped "Received January 18, 1989" and subject to the following
conditions:
1. Lighting for sign shall be permanently directed only on the sign.
2. Applicant shall work with staff to minimize sound transmission between
apartments.
3. Continue the sidewalk design, sidewalk lighting and signage theme used in
the downtown throughout the site. I
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
1
46
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 21,600 SQ. FT. OFFICE BUILDING, LOCATED JUST EAST OF 480
WEST 78TH STREET, CHANHASSEN PROFESSIONAL BUILDING, PHASE I, ARVID ELNESS
ARCHITECTS, INC.
IISteve Hanson: This is the site plan for the first phase in the area. As you
recall earlier--on the agenda...the feasibility for the parking of this
-particular area. Phase I area is shown on this overall plan. It's an area of
- buidling that's entirely colored in on this particular plan. Phase 2 goes here.
It's a one story. Phase I I should mention is a two story facility shown here.
I 3 is proposed to be a cover. It's not an inhabitable space. It's a cover
over the main drive into the facility and then there's also, as noted as Phase
4, this outline. We'll talk about that a little bit later. I wanted to use
this particular graphic which is different from the one you have in your packet.
11 The one you have in your packet really just shows this particular area but I
wanted to talk about the entire site because this whole thing does tie together.
Also, to explain the process that we're going through. At this particular time
we're looking at approving the site plan just for this first building and that
building site. You will be seeing plans from the back based on the feasibility
as you go through it to cover the entire parking area for this particular site
so we layout that circulation in greater detail to accomodate this first phase.
Those plans you'll be seeing in the following few weeks. It sounds real
confusing, in fact the Planning Con[OissiOn is not a typical situation to look...
It has to do with different owners and the time schedules that we're trying to
' meet to accomodate the doctor for building the site. The plan that you have in
your packet was a revision that was done after the Planning Commission and
really has got, one of the issues that was brought up at that particular time
II 1 and comments that were brought up prior to that meeting. One of those relating
to the setback along West 78th Street so that the 10 foot setback to accomodate
the improvements. .. That also allows us to maintain the landscaping in that
area should at some point in time we need to widened West 78th Street to
accomodate right turns in and out for these accesses along here. That's just
giving us that flexibility as well as maintaining the landscaping and•what we're
trying to create in that downtown area. Also, another thing we discussed
relative to the plan that I wanted to point out. The Planning Commission has
recommended that when they come in with Phase 2, that Phase 2 and Phase 3 be
combined as one feature. Part of that is that Phase 3, not being a leaseable
area.. .potential that that doesn't happen. It's an element that's really tends
w to tie the whole project together. Consequently, we'd like to see those two
happen concurrently and finish off the two phases. I mentioned a fourth phase.
Initially they proposed a 6,000 square foot addition on the end. They have
' ' '=,s-ince(said what they really need is to allow for a 3,000 -foot expansion on that
- and that has to do with the leasing arrangements that they have with the doctor.
" 'In this particular plan, it does not, although it might be accommodated but I
think we've had an agreement between than and staff as far as what we want to
accomplish in this area at the time that that phase 4 happens to come back in
and resubmit plans for that. What we're trying to accomplish is identifying and
keeping the- identity for the clock tower. That's where it becomes the focal
point... Our fear is that if you extend the building across and directly behind
the clock tower, the clock tower starts to get lost. You start to lose that
landmark in the downtown area. What we're suggesting is that when this addition
II f does happen, if it happens, that the building be held back a little bit to
maintain essentially a park like. . .that leaves that clock tower sitting out so
t_ it retains it's status as a monument. Also, I want to point out, on the
previous one I mentioned the sidewalk running through this particular area as it
47
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
comes down. What we would suggest when we do the parking layout for this area,
that we take a few of those parking stalls in this end where we do have a
surplus of parking space on the entire site, and utilize those for pedestrian ,
connections and make a workable connection through and end these sidewalks,
either this way or out to the property. ..to allow that pedestrian circulation
through the site rather than down in this particular location. Also, one other
comment regarding the conditions that were presented and one of them had to do
with the height restriction in this particular area where they need to maintain
14 feet for emergency traffic and that one is now not needed to maintain that
for fire access. With the access this way and around this way, will be adequate
to serve the site so what was happening, since this area is a bit lower and
would not allow a fire truck to pass through. Initially the Fire Department
thought they would need that for access. That's not going to be required so
that can be lowered down. One thing they have done to accommodate one of the
concerns in this area with the potential for congestion, these areas being used
as a logical place to drop off and pick up pedestrians, that this wasn't wide
enough for two cars to pass and that's been widened out to the left. That
concludes my remarks at this time unless there are any questions.
Councilwoman Dimler: Steve, could you just show me how close the Riv is to the f
westerly side there?
Steve Hanson: Their property is located here. The one question about the Riv
and circulation, as they want to maintain a drop off area in this particular
area. Our concern for them to do that, you lose valuable parking space for that
particular business and with the businesses that will be in this building, you
have medium businesses for these parking spaces here and the applicants on this
have made a shift, they've shifted the building this way to accommodate some
parking in here to help alleviate that shortage in that particular area. As we
get into the design on the specific parking lot, that is something we need to
address is how to handle that parking.
Councilwoman Dimler: How many feet about is it? I
Steve Hanson: From the face of this building here?
Councilwoman Dimler: Yes. ,
Steve Hanson: About 80 feet. I don't know, Tom do you have it?
Tom Zumwalde: It's 86 feet...
Mayor Chmiel: I had one question. Somebody coming west extending east on 78th
Street, what's the accessibility into that specific area? How do we get across
there?
Tom Zumwalde: A break in the median. There is not one here now. ,
Councilman Workman: There is going to be a sidewalk to the clock?
Steve Hanson: There is not one shown on here. We talked about that and whether
it should be or not. The problem is, if we do an addition on here, we're not
going to have the space for that connection through. I know some of the
discussions we had with the applicant, if we did make the connections through
48
11
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
II : and they raised a valid point, what do you do when you get there?
IICouncilman Johnson: See what time it is.
Steve Hanson: But I think they raise a valid point that if you came down to
' this location, you would walk this way or this way. You're really walking
across the face of those buildings and there's probably a better place, safer
place for you to be walking. I don't know if there's a lot of people who are
going to walk to the clock tower. It's going to be open space but not really to
make that an active open space. Again, it's to set that off to make that as a
statement.
Councilman Workman: Like an awful lot of older towns and stuff with alleys and
stuff. Chaska has a few. Chanhassen doesn't really have these kind of downtown
central business district alley kind of things that people are peaking out and
trying to get out. Of course the first line of defense is the sidewalk where
people might be walking by and they have to kind of peak down, Northfield comes
to mind. A real big problem. Is that creating kind of this? Are people going
to be kind of peaking out at the traffic? Are people going to be coming under
' here tooting their horns to make sure nobody is coming? Are we creating a
potential scenario?
Tam Zumwalde: I don't think so because you've got a lot more visibility here
than you would in an alley. An alley in a typical downtown area, the buildings
are right up to the right-of-way. The width of that sidewalk is 6 to 8 feet in
width there. We have 10 feet back here and there's roughly another 12 feet I
I believe out in the right-of-way which is a car length. Plus it's a lot wider
than what you have on alleys. It's 72 feet. So that width is like a regular
street.
Councilman Workman: I'm going to refer to this pretty artwork here as an alley.
Tom Zumwalde: I think from a visibility standpoint, you're going to have almost
the visibility that you would of a normal intersection.
Councilman Workman: That's all I have.
Councilman Johnson: To follow up on your last comment, I'd like to make sure
that the plantings do not interfere with the sight of the vehicles. We do have
' some planting problems, which I think are, as people are saying, the problems
with the medians, some of than are overplanting. I know I've said this for two
years and I will continue saying it but put about twice as many trees, bushes
and stuff in there as we need to. 78th and Laredo, there's a tree right where
you can't see who's coming. You've really got to pull out too far. This spring
I'm going to really recommend we dig up a tree and move it and there's a couple
other places we need to move some trees and I don't want to have that situation
' here. Make sure those plantings at that corner aren't going to be something
that's going to obstruct the driver's view. Otherwise it looks pretty good. To
inform the Council of what used to be here, when we approved it the last time we
11 L: were looking at this, we had an L shaped building set on this site that the
parking lot went around and then when we couldn't get Bernie Hanson's building,
we couldn't do the L shaped so now we're having to do it in two phases. This is
pretty interesting. Hopefully we can fill this up. Get some good firms in
here.
49
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
I
Mayor Chmiel: Before we discuss this, as I see, I'd like to make a correction,
once we go to a motion. On item number 2, it goes a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h. I
would suggest we change it i., j, k rather than c, d, e.
Councilman Boyt: My question now Brad is, would this be any different if
Bernie's was gone?
Brad Johnson: Possibly. We've had a number of plans for this particular site
and our time table has adjusted over the last year frankly. It was hoped to be
under construction and ready for occupancy about 3 months from now and because
we could not get the land, we kind of drifted along up to the point we talked
about...and at that point we went back and got together with the City and said,
well we're going to have to do a fast run. Rather than a bad or quick one,
let's make sure that everybody agrees that that site plan is for this site. So
what you see before you is the site plan that was basically done by all of us.
The City Staff, the planners. Everybody. Developed in the community and this
was the best answer. We all kind of like it right now because it kind of gives
you a interesting entrance. I have one that spreads the whole building out.
It's hanging in my office but this is a color, that's sort of what the look ,
would be. This is brick and then if you add the other end, which is Phase 2,
that goes about right there. It is a different elevation than the one story
building. And then that would be kind of the look of the building when it's all
done. I think from the very beginning of planning, when we were working on the
downtown, at that point we pulled things forward rather than having these big
parking lots in front. It works real well with the apartment building because
if we were to shove the building further back, that would not work so we're kind
of happy with this. It's going to be a real interesting entrance to the
community. It's going to be long. Probably about 460 feet long. About a
ballfield and a half. You're going to have a main street. A lot of people I
can remember.. .Excelsi.or, our very first presentation two years ago and they
said, well you can't do that. You've got to pull the buildings up close. We
said we couldn't do that because we had to have parking in front.. . It may end
up to be flowers or something in there but the primary, the way it's set up,
convenience is for the video store. I have a definition. I think it will be
kind of nice. That last building, this one is really kind of colorful because
you'll notice it's got separate entrances and each one is identified with brick
see so even though it will have multiple stores, they're all double doored and
it's kind of exciting. We've had a lot of interest from local tenants.
Dr. McCollum and other people so our primary concern is to move as fast as we
can. Planning Staff has been real cooperative. To answer your question, the
day after this period of time, I think we'd take this. I like it. I think it
will have more character. We know we could not build a one phase L building
anyway. We don't have enough tenants to occupy, you've got to have 15,000
square feet pre-rented. This allows us to have approximately 9,000 or 10,000
pre-rented to start the project. We're also fitting into the land acquisition
costs for downtown and all that. I think it works kind of nice. There's some
design work that has to be done around the Riveria. The parking for them and
that's not done yet and the first phase of this has nothing to do with that.
All those kinds of little issues. We can build while Bernie is still there and
it allows us some flexibility. I think you'll end up with a nice project when
(=I:
it's all done and it will take approximately 3 years of increments.. .
50 1
IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
ICouncilman Boyt: Now what you've said then to me is that if Bernie was gone
11-', today, you wouldn't change this plan?
Brad Johnson: Yes. Because we can't do more than 30,000 square feet on the
site and it will probably end up being a little less than that.
Councilwoman Dimler: Can I have an unpdate on the negotiations with Mr. Hanson?
Don Ashworth: As you're aware, the HRA did meet with him. They presented a
proposal to the HRA. We went into a closed session. They authorized this
office to present a counter-proposal to him. We met upstairs and at about 1:30
came to agreement and shook on it. It was within the authorization given to me
by the HRA so I'm assuming that in putting it into writing and presenting it to
him, that he doesn't change his mind, I think we have a willing seller and a
willing buyer.
Councilman Workman: Heritage Park and the apartments are going to be done right
away in the spring and they're going to be going on at the same time and
completed hopefully in the fall for both?
' Brad Johnson: Yes. It turns out that construction on those will be
approximately simultaneously. Within 30 days. We're in the financing. The
drag on the apartment building has been financing and using all the gimicks that
we can...construction loan. So probably the most difficult part from the
architect's stand is to get it through the planning process and get a site plan.
For fast tracking this particular. Leases are in place. The other major tenant
II ' is Occupational Health facility for Waconia Hospital.
Mayor Chmiel: Anymore discussion? If not, I'll entertain a motion.
Councilman Johnson: I'll move the City Council approve Site Plan Review #88-17
for Phase I of the Chanhassen Professional Building based on the plans stamped
"Received January 18, 1989" and subject to the following conditions. And
' there's a condition 1. Condition 2 with (a) through (k) , renumbering the minor
typographical error at the end there.
Councilman Workman: Second.
Steve Hanson: In your motion, would you include on what would be item 2(i) , to
delete the minimum height clearance of 14 feet?
Councilman Johnson: Yes. I would like to include that. That was a very
interesting discussion at the Planning Commission. I guess I'd like to modify
' my motion to include only the first sentence of item (i) .
Councilman Workman: What will the minimum be then?
Councilman Johnson: The site plan show it as 10 foot.
Larry Brown: Jay, did you want to inlcude, if I understood you correctly, that
plantings shall not obstruct view or pedestrian traffic?
Councilman Johnson: Yes. That was my idea wasn't it? Thanks, you're keeping
11 track of me Larry. Item (1) , I'd like to modify that plantings shall be such
51
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 r
that they do not obstruct traffic sight distances. Is that okay with your
second?
Councilman Workman: Yes.
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to approve Site Plan 1
Review #88-17 for Phase I of the Chanhassen Professional Building based on the
plans stamped "Received January 18, 1989" and subject to the following
conditions: I
1. Prior to issuance of any permits for construction, detailed plans need to be
approved by Planning Commission and City Council for the entire aea from
Town Square to Great Plains Boulevard in accordance with Section 20-107,
Application Site Plan Review of the City Code. '
2. Revised overall plan needs to address the following specifications:
a. Revised parking to address circulation for Riveria and Colonial Shopping
Center areas.
b. If parking space sizes are to be reduced from normal standards, ,
information needs to be submitted to justify reduced standards.
c. Phase III to occur as part of Phase II.
d. A 10 foot setback from West 78th Street right-of-way to be maintained
for all structural elements of buildings on all phases. I
e. If a Phase IV is to be constructed it needs to provide an open area
around the clock tower that is large enough to maintain the clock tower
as a focal point.
f. Pedestrian access is to be provided through the parking area from the
Heritage Park Apartments, generally in line with the clock tower. I
g. Detailed facia plans including signage, lighting, landscaping, and
building materials need to be included in the review of the parking lot
site plan.
h. All mechanical to be inside building and any service/utility boxes to be
identified on site plan and screened.
i. Revise main access to accommodate traffic flow if area is to function as
a drop off. I
j. Satisfy requirements of Fire Inspector.
k. Overall circulation needs to be redesigned to flow properly through all 1
properties. If parking space sizes are to be reduced from normal
standard, information needs to be submitted to justify reduced standards
and address posssible impacts.
52 1
IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
1. Plantings shall not obstruct view or g o pedestrian traffic.
II4. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
APPROVE 1989 LAKE ANN PARKING FEE SCHEDULE.
Don Ashworth: Todd had written this up. He is present if the Commission
members do have questions. This was really stimulated by City Council action a
year ago wherein staff was directed to start looking at reducing the amount of
the park fees. It's my belief that the idea was that eventually they would get
down to questions that we should, I think the specific fee schedule for 1989 is
within the budget and it is an item that we can live with and again, the
recommendation being made is reasonable. I would think that during the course
of 1989, at some time we're going to get an opportunity to have some type of a
11 work session where we can discuss this type of an issue and make a determination
of whether or not Council wishes to continue that type of direction as a goal.
Do we want to eventually eliminate them entirely or do we want to maintain
enough in terms-of a fee schedule to recoup a portion of our maintenance costs.
I don't think that question needs to be answered tonight. The fee schedule
again recommended for 1989, staff's recommendation is within the budget and is
recommended.
' Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I'm in favor of keeping the fees. However, I
would like to see some sort of a plan that the parents that are just dropping
I their children off for like lessons of some sort or for a ball game and they're
just going in and coming out, that they not be required to purchase either a
seasonal permit or a daily as they're going in and out. Is there someway we can
provide for that?
Don Ashworth: Todd, could you respond to that question?
Todd Hoffman: The Commission, the Park and Recreation Commission entertained
that question as well. They didn't make a recommendation on what method would
be used to do that but they would like to see some method put into action that
would allow that. In the past, there's been things such as your ticket stub
from swimming lessons allows you to get in and drop your child out and get back
out without paying.
Mayor Chmiel: What about with being in uniform. Kids have uniforms and they
play ball or whatever. I assume that would be another way.
Councilman Johnson: Yes, that was a real controversy this last year. I
happened to actually be there one day, stopped by City Hall one evening when the
Little Leaguers were charged from the visiting team got charged to come in and
our 15 year old gate attendant, who fortunately that day he's a 15 year old that
looked 18, he was given a whole lot of trouble that evening. Todd and I went
over and Todd got in a lot of trouble from a lot of people. It is true, we play
Little League softball with other towns and we go to their parks and play and
there's no charge. We come here, and they get charged. The Board of the
Athletic Association would also request that there be some means for making sure
that the youth that are visitors which we've invited to come play at our fields,
are not charged.
53
11
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Mayor Chmiel: That could be something that could be carried out adminstratively
here. I think that could probably be addressed. Any other questions? 1
Councilman Boyt: I think that I'm willing to accept the fees as recommended for
1989. I think when we consider this in more detail, this is a pretty spirited
decision when the previous Council approached this topic and I would take issue
with what I heard Mr. Ashworth say. I don't think there was a resolution that
we would reduce the fees to zero. As I understood it, and I haven't read last
year's Minutes, but I think it was more along the line of let's consider the
I/
issues. I know there were some members of the Council that thought there
shouldn't be a fee but there were also a few, one I'm sure of, that felt that
this was irresponsible. The majority of the Park and Rec Commission supported ,
the idea of fees. User fees are common in parks. We don't have them in our
other parks for a good reason but this is, as Mr. Geving referred to it a number
of times, the jewel of Chanhassen. It's certainly worth a $10.00 season pass if
you're not a resident, and a $5.00 if you are a resident, to be able to use a
park that has the quality that park hopefully will always maintain. We
regularly give away_ hundreds of these passes to employers in town. We routinely
allow everyone in a softball tournament to come in without paying a fee. I
think that we have gone out of our way to make this accessable and I agree with
Ursula that we should and with the Park and Rec Commission, that we certainly
should make it accessable to people who are taking lessons and participating as
a few others of you have mentioned. But I feel we should always charge a fee to
help us cover the cost reflected by the use that that park receives but it's
certainly a good topic for a work session.
Councilman Johnson: What did our survey show 2 years ago? I remember one of
the questions on the survey was in reference to how would you like to pay for
the services, user fees, increases taxes, etc., etc. . Does anybody remember how
that particular answer came out?
Lori Sietsema: The majority of the people we talked to were that user fees were
the most popular answer. I don't have the statistics but that was the most
common one.
Councilman Johnson: I think what the Council action was last year was, let's I
look at the pros and cons. Let's not jump into it. I don't think we said we
want to reduce it to zero. We want to look at it and study the issue and came
back. I think this is a good first step here. Like I say, it's something that
we don't want to, it kind of fell through the cracks a little last year. It
wasn't one of the most important issues. A lot of issues have to get put on the
back burner due to staff restraints and I'd like to not see this one as far back
this year. Maybe in a joint session with the Park and Rec we could have some
discussions on this one.
Councilman Workman: It just seems that in reading, this just seems so contrary
to the way government usually operates. It seems so reverse from the way things
usually, fees are increasing. We're adding sprinkler fees. Trying to do that
and everything else. The outrage must be incredible for us to back that up. Is
that what we're saying? That it's just, people are just adamantly...
Councilman Johnson: I wouldn't say, that one night, the Little Leaguers and
that was, the President of the South Tonka Little League, they've brought that
54
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 T``
up every time they attend our CAA meetings. This is brought up again. He now
lives down, the new President is down on Frontier. ..
Councilman Workman: We talk about when we go to their fields and we're not
charged. What kind of a field, what kind of park are we playing in? Which
parks are you playing in over there?
ICouncilman Johnson: They're nothing of this caliber. We're not going to those
fields out on TH 101. I don't know. My son doesn't play Little League. He
II plays summer soccer. Hung up his baseball glove when Little League started and
went to soccer so I don't know. I don't think that these fees are too bad. A
lot of places do charge fees. Not a lot of city parks. There's a lot of city
parks out there. Eden Prairie doesn't charge any fees at any of their parks
II that I know of. Carver County charges at every one, or Hennepin County park
system. I think it's something that we should have more discussion on during
the year at this point.
IICouncilman Workman: I know for a fact that playing on a softball team out
there, the City champion, Merlin's Rental, that people who don't quite live in
II the City or are just out there to play softball, are irritated slightly about
that. By the fact that they had to slap a sticker on the car but they're big
kids. I don't know. I think it's a beautiful park and I think we're kind of
heading in the wrong direction. I did like the comments from the Park and Rec
II Commission about it's a little bit of a deterrent in the front door to say let's
not let some of these people in. We've all been down there. We've all seen
what happens down there as the sun dips below the forest there and I think they
' used to all sit up by St. Hubert's and now I think they've all kind of moved
down there. If I remember way back long ago. I don't know, if they're all down
there, maybe the sticker isn't doing a thing. Maybe that's what that's proving.
IICouncilman Johnson: The only time we go late at night there is when there is
softball going on. I think if there's no the softball season, we only go to
like 6:00 at night or something for our gate attendant.
1 Councilman Workman: Is the gate closed at 10:00 every night?
II Lori Sietsema: Or as late as the last softball game. Sometimes the last
softball game goes later.
Councilman Johnson: The Sheriff closes that for us?
IICouncilman Workman: Are they snooping around out there?
IICouncilman Johnson: Oh yes. I've met them out there before.
Mayor Chmiel: In fact I can hear them at my house.
IICouncilman Workman: I guess that's one of my biggest points. I can understand
where people are getting irritated being from out of town or something but I
like the measure of control that the front fence and the fee probably provides.
II Councilman Johnson: I don't think we need to get rid of the front fence even if
we get rid of the fees. But I have also heard a lot of compliments on that park
IIas far as people liking to come to play softball there.
55
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
I
Councilman Boyt: I think that the daily fee was set up to discourage people
from using the daily fee and encouraging them to take the season pass. A $2.00
daily fee to me seems maybe even a little bit high but I think that we need to
be careful that we don't just cut the bottom out of our fee structure. I would
move that we accept the recommended fees for 1989 of $10.00 for a seasonal, non- I
resident; $5.00 for a seasonal resident; and $2.00 for a daily. I would add to
my motion that I think the staff should pursue ways to provide passes as part of
the fee structure in the softball and Little League and other park related
activities to be included as part of the fee.
Councilman Johnson: I'll second that.
Councilman Boyt moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to accept the recommended
fees for Lake Ann Park for 1989 of $10.00 for a seasonal, non-resident; $5.00
for a seasonal resident; and $2.00 for a daily. Also, staff should pursue ways
to provide passes as part of the fee structure in the softball and Little League
and other park related activities to be included as part of the fee. All voted
in favor and the motion carried.
APPROVE CRITERIA FOR SELECTION OF PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION MEMBERS. I
Councilman Boyt: I passed out for you earlier the criteria for Commission
selection. They're about to make some recommendations to us. I think it's worth
a few minutes of our time here to look at their criteria. The criteria on the
first page are really pretty vague as far as I'm concerned. I'm suggesting that
to number 3, that if people who are currently on the Commission seek to be
reappointed, that one of the criteria should be prior attendance of 75%. I
think on all our Commission directives, we indicate that's the minimum accepted
level of attendance. I think that should people who want reappointment should
have demonstrated they can meet that minimum. I think their questions reflect
the other criteria that I've indicated down at the bottom. Experience with Park
and Recreation issues. A willingness to assist in Park and Recreation events.
The Park and Recreation Commission, unlike the others we have, actually carries
on events in the City and expects their participants to show up and help with
those. Of course the ability to meet that attendance standard and I think that
whoever we have on the Park and Rec Commission should certainly come there with
a strong commitment to that system. Improving it, upgrading it and so on. I'd
like to hear other reactions to those criteria. I think it's very important
that the Park and Recreation people know what the Council considers to be
important when they make recommendations to us. i
Mayor Chmiel: Any other discussion on this?
Councilwoman Dimler: Mr. Mayor, I'd like to address the whole issue of I
selection of commission members. It is my strong feeling that the Commission
should not be interviewing or choosing their members. That should be the
repsonsibility of the Council. The reason being that they tend to choose people f
that have like ideas to them and that doesn't give a very diversified view or a
total picture of the issues. So I don't really think it should only be the Park
and Rec, but all the Commissions I know we're going to be looking at Planning
Commission members and I think the only fair thing to do is that we interview
56 1
II • • City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
them ourselves and the Council make the selection.
Councilman Boyt: I have pushed for 2 years to have the Council interview the
candidates... I think that's a good idea. I don't think we want to get into the
position of interviewing 20 candidates for the Planning Commission or as it was
- sometime in the last year, I think there were 21 candidates for Park and Rec.
19 or 21, something like that. I just don't think we have the time to sort that
down to 1 or 2 people. I'd like to see the Commissions sort of whittle that
number down to something that if there's 2 openings, they send us 4 people. If
there's 1 opening, they send us 2 people.
Councilwoman Dimler: That we see at least 4 or 5 of them. If there's 20,
11 that's too many.
- Mayor Chmiel: I think we should also have the opportunity to at least review
' who of those other people who were making those applications as well.
Councilman Boyt: We can see all the applications certainly. I'd like to have
them screen down the pool.
Councilman Johnson: I'd also like to see what Council thinks about, we have
Council representation on Public Safety Commission as part of the ordinance
there. I'd like to hear what other people think about having Council
representation on the other Connuissions.
Mayor Chmiel: I've been seriously looking at that and I've had discussions on
that. I think that's something we're going to have to address because I think
we should have representation on each of those commissions by the Council. At
least that's my opinion.
" Councilwoman Dimler: I agree.
Councilman Workman: As a sitting member?
- Councilwoman Dimler: Yes.
Councilman Workman: Bill, are you a sitting member on the Public Safety? A
L
"__voting member?
Mayor Chmiel: Yes. But I think that's something too that we can discuss at a
later time rather than discussing it now.
Councilwoman Dimler: Is there a set number of people on each commission so then
that would be really relevant because you don't want to choose and fill all the
slots and then have. ..
"Councilman Johnson: We can change that number at any time by passing a
resolution. We- establish the numbers.
Mayor Chmiel: I think it would be a-distinct advantage for the Council to be
ii I - aware and have a council person representing them. I know I've been sitting in
on every commission meeting that's come up. It's beneficial to be aware as to
what's really going to be happening.
11 57
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Councilman Boyt: I agree with you. I would propose that we move in the other
direction. I'd go so far as to say that I don't need to be a sitting member of
(ii
the Public Safety Commission. The reason I would say that is because as we've
demonstrated tonight, we all have the ability to get our two words in during a
Council meeting. I think there's a great advantage to, as you have done so
frequently in the last couple of months Don, sit in the back of the room and
listen. I've learned a great deal sitting in the back of the Commission
meetings and letting them carry the discussion and not having to get involved.
If any one of us wants to ask a question, I've never been told I couldn't ask a
question at a Commission meeting. It's really a chance for other residents in
I/
the City to flush out the issues in probably a more informal setting than we
tend to be. So I would rather give up my seat on the Public Safety Commission
than see us move to strictly a sitting in and maybe we orchestrate that so it's '
more formal.
Councilman Johnson: Either a non-voting sitting in or a back of the room
sitting in.
Mayor Chmiel: I think it's something we can think about but right now I think
what we should do is probably continue on with the agenda. Time is fleeting and I
I'd like to get this thing all accomplished. The criteria for the Commission
selection, I don't know whether we need a motion on this. I think we're
probably in agreement to what's here and therefore, we'll have that opportunity
to review the balance of new people who are proposing their choice for selection
to be on the commission for the Park and Rec.
Councilman Johnson: What we're going to be saying to Park and Rec, before we I
meet again, they're going to be doing the initial interviews. We're saying we'd
like them to reduce the number down to a reasonable handful, depending upon how
many seats are available, and then we want to interview those folks. I
Mayor Chmiel: Right. And I'd like to see the entire list of candidates as
well.
Councilman Workman: Let me ask a comment. Approve the etc.? '
APP questions, etc.. Is
that what we're being asked?
Lori Sietsema: It's more of an information to let you know and if you have any
changes or something that you want to add, let us know.
Councilman Workman: I guess interview question number 2. At least the first
part of it. What do you feel is the future of parks and trails in Chanhassen?
Mayor Chmiel: I thought that was going to be eliminated because some of the '
people who were going to be interviewed for that job really don't know what the
job consists of.
Councilman Workman: I guess my feeling on it is, I picture people coming in and 11
interviewing for this and I see 2 as kind of a backdoor way of saying, did you
vote on the referendum yes or no. That's half the population. We've got a
pretty even split by 4 or 8 or whatever it is. I don't know. Is that kind of a
requirement? Is it basically a requirement? If I voted yes for the referendum
I have a better chance than if I voted no?
58 1
, City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
iCouncilman Boyt: Let me ask you a question Tom. This is the group that we've
charged with helping us gain focus on Park and Recreation issues. Would you
IIsupport the candidancy of somebody who came in and said I don't think we ought
to have any parks?
Councilman Workman: I would appreciate any other angle. I don't think we
should have just one angle.
Councilman Boyt: Well, that would be different. I think asking people have you
thought about the park and trail issue is an important one to have an answer to.
We get the Minutes of those meetings. It's certainly a question that I will ask
of the 4 people who come in front of us.
I/ Councilman Workman: Okay, but what I'm saying is, if I come in to be
interviewed and I don't think that the approval of those 27 miles of trails on
the referendum, am I going to be illegible simply because I don't believe in the
whole thing. That doesn't mean I don't believe in the trails, I do. Very
strongly.
11 Councilman Johnson: Then that's what you say. That's the answer to your
question. Yes, I believe in trails. This doesn't say anything about the
referendum. I think 2 could be eliminated just as easily and 3 ask almost the
same question except for it gives the person more room to improvise. What do
' you think our current park and recreation system and what do you think can be
added? There, the answer to 2 should come out during the answer to 3.
I Councilman Workman: What I'm stating is,is as
_ which have, I mean by skin of the teeth, proof positive by two referendums
you can't get much closer. What I'm
saying is, there are many different opinions as to how far we should go with
developing trails. So there's many different levels of opinion as far as that
goes. From maybe Lori's view that we should have them all to somebody elses
view that we need them in a spot here and there. That's all I'm getting at.
I Councilwoman Dimler: I guess I'd like to add to that, that I think the question
should be general enough and not so specific because the applicant may not have
particular knowledge and yet be a very, after they learn the facts, be a very
valuable member to the Commission so I'd like to see questions like do you feel
like, do you feel you have the time commitment and personal things like that
without getting too specific about the issues.
Lori Sietsema: They did plan on that one specifically. They did plan on
elaborating on what the time commitment was because they wanted to make sure
that the people that are applying know, the Park and Recreation Commission
' sometimes meets 3 and 4 and 5 times a month during the summer. That they go out
to different sites and they do a lot of touring around the City and looking at
things so it's not, what used to be 1 meeting a month is now at least 2 and
sometimes 3 and 4 a month. They wanted to make sure of that and then once
they're made aware of that time. ..
IL Councilwoman Dimler: I think that's a good question. I have no problem with
that. I think we shouldn't get so specific that they wouldn't know the facts to
answer the question. Do you understand what I mean?
Councilman Boyt: Okay, are we ready to move on?
59
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
ESTABLISH PERMIT PROCESS AND FEE FOR SPRINKLER PERMITS.
Jim Chaffee: For the sake of brievity, I'll just briefly summarize that this
fee structure and permit alteration was developed by all of us in Public Safety
by recent issues. It's quite simply a user fee as Councilman Workman talked
about the park fees. What it does is spreads the burden or limits the burden on
the user fees to the user of the service rather than spreading it over the
general public and that's basically what we're asking for.
Mayor Chmiel: Any discussion on this?
Councilwoman Dimler: I have one question and that is, why isn't this included
in the plumbing permits?
Jim Chaffee: Probably because it's very specific to the fire inspection and
fire marshall rather than the plumbing inspector. The Fire Inspector, Mark
Littfin goes out there and does the inspection. Right now he's doing it in
conjunction with the Fire Marshall from Eden Prairie who charges anywhere from
$30.00 to $60.00 an hour depending on the complexity of the project. We are
facing a Rosemount situation where... I
Councilwoman Dimler: And that was just to cover his fee of inspection?
Jim Chaffee: Right now it would cover, if we implemented this fee structure
schedule today, it would cover the services we are getting from the Eden Prairie
Fire Marshall because Mark Littfin is quite simply not up to speed yet... He
will get there eventually. I
Councilwoman Dimler: But what I'm asking is that his salary is not enough to
cover the time that he has to spend on inspections? You need extra money to
cover that?
Jim Chaffee: Right now Phil Mathiowitz, the Fire Marshall for Eden Prairie is
doing this on a contract basis. In other words, we're paying him so it has
nothing to do with Mark Littfin's salary right now.
Councilwoman Dimler: But it will eventually. I
Jim Chaffee: Eventually it would help offset and help pay for Mark Littfin,
yes. 1
Councilman Johnson: Which is the same that we do for the plumber and other
building inspectors we charge a fee to cover the project.
Councilwoman Dimler: And what you're saying is it isn't part of the plumbing
inspection?
Jim Chaffee: No.
Councilman Johnson: Totally different profession.
Councilman Boyt: I would suggest that the $15.00 fee proposed is too low and I
don't do that lightly. I do that after conversation with Mark Littfin and
I guess I'd take issue with Jim Chaffee that $15.00 will not pay Phil Mathiowitz I
60 1
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
I ,—• to come out here and inspect less than 10 sprinkler heads. I found it
interesting that Edina, who was just reported in the paper as having the lowest
IItax rate, has the highest fee. Maybe that's part of it. They make people pay
" for the services that they use. We have an opportunity here when we start this
to pick a reasonable fee and I'm not proposing that we choose the, I see $30.00
II is highlighted there. I wrote $40.00 down. I'm not proposing that we charge a
$40.00 fee but I think $15.00, which is what Eden Prairie charges, is too low.
I base that on the length of inspections. As Chaffee just mentioned, the price
of outside consultants is $30.00 to $60.00 an hour. I think if we're talking
II about the time involved and Mark Littfin told me that it takes two trips to the
site to do this inspection, and then when we start talking about reviewing the
plans for them and the trips to site, I think we should be talking more along
Ithe lines of $25.00 or $30.00.
Mayor Chmiel: Bill, if you would look at he second sheet in, on the back side
of that sheet, it shows the sprinkler permit application with the amounts shown
11 there. The number of heads, 1-5, 6-25, 26-50.
Councilman Boyt: Is this ours?
IIMayor Chmiel: Yes. This is what's being proposed.
I Councilman Boyt: My apology. I'm off base. I had $15.00 because in the
notes...
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, that's what Eden Prairie's is.
ilCouncilman Boyt: Well, right on.
1 Councilman Workman: I guess I'd just like to put in my two cents for again
increased government, we're going to offset something here and it all looks very
nice but again, the cost of doing business in the City is increasing and I'd
like to note that. Continued and deeper control of everything can sometimes be
Igood on a safety standpoint but I don't like it as a trend. That's my comment.
Councilman Johnson: We're moving from a village to a city.
IIMayor Chmiel: We've been a city.
II Councilman Johnson: When I first joined this Council, we had council members
who continued to call this the Village of Chanhassen. We are a city and we have
to bring our rules and everything up to the suburban city standards and this is
one of those.
tCouncilwoman Dimler: I have one more question and that is, back to the money on
this. How has this been paid for in the past?
IIJim Chaffee: It comes right out of the general fund. As far as Phil
Mathiowetz?
IIi Councilwoman Dimler: No, just the general inspections. If it wasn't under
plumbing, who did it and how was it paid for?
IICouncilman Johnson: United Mailing, how did we do that?
11 61
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Jim Chaffee: It was contracted out. We just had a Fire Marshall to do that on
their own time.
Mayor Chmiel: All the cities that I basically deal with do have this kind of a
fee schedule. Some may be higher. Some may be lower but you still have to have
it to offset those costs.
Resolution #89-10: Councilman Johnson moved, Councilman Workman seconded to 11
approve the establishment of the fire sprinkler and fee structure as recommended
in the memorandum from Jim Chaffee dated January 18, 1989. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
APPOINTMENTS: SOUTHWEST TRANSIT COMMISSION - COUNCIL REPRESENTATIVE. I
Mayor Chmiel: The Southwest Transit Commission, to have a Council
representative on there.
Councilman Johnson: You don't have to. That was our City Council's
recommendation that we fill it with Council members. In general, the other
cities have filled the spots with Council members. Chaska currently has three
commissioners. We will in 1991 is it, be the city with 3 commissioners. They
currently have two Council, their Mayor, one council member and a citizen
representative doing it. At this point, if we don't put a council member on, we
won't have any council members on. It is very helpful, I've found, it has been [ I
helpful having council members on when working with the cities because this is a --
real city function.
11
Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded that Jay Johnson be appointed
to that position for the Southwest Metro Transit Commission. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT AND APPEALS - COUNCIL REPRESENTATIVE. I
Don Ashworth: Two members have asked if they can be considered, Willard and
Carol. I'm assuming from this memorandum that Dale was asked and did not wish
to be reconsidered. I was a little surprised with that.
Councilman Johnson: I discussed it with him also and he wants to stay with the
bus.
Mayor Chmiel: We have before us, on the Board of Adjustments and Appeals be
appointed. Ms. Carol Watson and Willard Johnson. The third person that I think
I'd like to appoint to that would be Ursula Dimler as a motion.
Councilman Johnson: I was about to second that. I
Councilman Boyt: I have a comment. We have just talked about and we are about
to go through this twice. Interviewing candidates for these positions. I don't
know if you want to start this the next time we have people come in front of us.
62 1
IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
IIt is a little awkward to start it now but it gets at the point. If you're
going to have a relationship with these people, I think you'd want to know where
IIthey're coming from.
Councilman Johnson: At this point we're only moving on 1 out of 3. Nobody has
nominated Carol or Willard yet.
Mayor Chmiel: A motion is still on the floor with a motion and second to
appoint Ursula on the Board of Adjustments and Appeals.
Mayor Chmiel moved, Councilman Johnson seconded to appoint Councilwoman Ursula
Dimler to the Board of Adjustments and Appeals. All voted in favor and the
motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: As for discussion, what Bill just said, what's the Council's
pleasure in having Carol and Willard come before the Council?
Councilman Johnson: Did we advertise this?
Mayor Chmiel: I don't believe it has been.
Councilman Johnson: I'd also like to nominate Mayor Chmiel as the alternate
following on the great traditions of Tom Hamilton as our previous alternate.
Councilwoman Dimler: If that's acceptable to you, I will second that.
-
Councilman Johnson moved, Councilwoman Dimler seconded to appoint Mayor Don
Chmiel as the alternate to the Board of Adjustment and Appeals. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Mayor Chmiel: Alright, let us proceed with advertising for this and informing
Carol Watson and Willard Johnson of the procedure we're
P going through.
' Councilman Johnson: And it's no reflection upon them. It is procedure that we
want to establish. All other commissions are advertised.
Mayor Chmiel: Do we have a specific date for this to advertise and get back to
the Council?
11 Don Ashworth: My only question is in terms of when the thing can get in the
newspaper. If it was turned in this Friday, it could appear next Wednesday.
What do you want to give people, a two week period?
Mayor Chmiel: I would say at least a two week period. Preferably through the
17th.
�{ Don Ashworth: So we would be then the second meeting in February which would be
the 27th. So it would be brought back on the 27th.
Mayor Chmiel: Does that require a motion on that one Roger?
i 63
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 •
Roger Knutson: Not really.
Councilman Johnson: I would like to know, what is the status of our current
board. This board is a little different than other boards. The Planning
Commission we say hey guys, stay on a while until we decide what we're going to
do. That's fine. This board is controlled by State Law. Can we say that to
Willard and Carol to them to stay on and act as our board of adjustment and
appeals until we continue on. That may take a motion.
Councilwoman Dimler: We have to know how often they meet and when they meet.
Councilman Johnson: Whenever there's a variance request.
Mayor Chmiel: The meeting comes up prior to the Council meeting.
Roger Knutson: Just to point out, under Section 2-46 of your City Code, they I
continue in office until their successor has been appointed so they remain your
board until you replace them.
APPOINTMENTS: PLANNING COMMISSION MEMBERS.
Steve Hanson: The Planning Commission at their meeting, interviewed the two new I
applicants who had submitted. The Planning Commission did not formally
interview the four existing members who are all applied to be reappointed.
Also, the Planning Commission, after interviewing the two applicants, they fo
essentially wanted to forward on their feeling that all 6 were qualified
applicants to serve on the Planning Commission and they did not feel that they
were in a position to make a recommendation to the City Council on any of the 6
but to just simply forward all 6 names for your consideration as appointment to
the Planning Commission.
Mayor Chmiel: I would like to make the suggestion that we table this portion of
this, on the Planning Commission appointments and work this in with the Park and
Recreation.
Don Ashworth: The special meeting that we'll have on probably, we just talked 11
about the 20th, February 20th is going to be open or we could look to February
6th. The Park Commission interviews which are to occur.. . '
Lori Sietsema: January 30th.
Don Ashworth: January 30th so they could go to February 6th. I
Mayor Chmiel: So put it on February 6th? Is that alright with Council?
February 6th so that would be on the first Monday of the month. Not on our
regular schedule.
Don Ashworth: That's a special meeting.
Mayor Chmiel: It would take too much of our regular time. I think we'd almost
have to have a separate meeting. Is everyone in agreement?
64
il ''
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
Ii _1 . Councilman Johnson: Yes. I would like to make a statement of total support for
s Ladd Conrad at this time. He is probably the single best commissioner amongst
: all the commissions I've seen. The way he runs a meeting is a good example of
how to run a meeting. He would be an extremely valuable asset to maintain. In
fact I would like to move to reappoint Ladd at this point and hold off the rest
of them. -
IIMayor Chmiel: I would think if we would wait for the balance of them.
IICouncilman Johnson: Yes, that'd be okay too.
Councilman Boyt: I think we could easily say that all 4 of the existing
II Planning Commission members have done an excellent job and I think it would be
faulting the other 3 to appoint anyone at this point.
Mayor Chmiel: That's the position I was taking.
I - Councilman Johnson: I would not be saying anything other than, Ladd has more
experience than _the other 3 put together in this position. He's been there a
I long time. The other 3, this is their first term. Actually this was brought up
to me by the other 3.
Mayor Chmiel: We've got this set for February 6th at 7:30. Interview Park and
Rec as well as the Planning Commission.
T
II1 COUNCIL PRESENTATIONS:
Mayor Chmiel: I'm going to go over this rather quickly. I'll read it quick and
II then I'll give everybody a copy when you get one made here. Carver County has
arranged to have the staff of Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority present an
updated development of Light Rail Transit in Hennepin County and the
Metropolitan area. We're inviting city officials to attend the County Board
II meeting at 1:00 p.m. on Monday, January 30th in the Commissioner's Room at the
Courthouse for this presentation. That is in Chaska. Ken Stevens of Hennepin
-County Public Service Office will lead this 1 hour presentation on light rail
I transit. Please let the other elected officials and appropriate city staff know
-tip-that they are most welcome to attend. If anyone can attend that specific
,,,meeting, I'm planning on being there myself. - _
ICouncilman Johnson: I think from what I've read on light rail transit out here,
we have the majority of the line will be running through Chanhassen. They're
talking about a line running basically, at this point, the primary route would
II be that fine little route that runs across TH 101 there and down to Gedney
Pickle which 90% or something of it is going to be in Chanhassen. I think we
__ , should be involved, as I suggested when they formed. their Light Rail Transit
-=_Commission and asked us some informal opinions. One of my opinions is that
somebody from Chanhassen as a representative of the City of Chanhassen should be
on that commission. Of course, the County Board appointed themselves as the
Light Rail Transit Commission for this County. Hopefully if there's any
II i openings or if they see it differently, I'd still like to try to get one of us
or somebody from the City as a representative of that. _
II
i 65
—
7 {'
--- City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 I
Councilwoman Dimler: Real quickly here, in the interest of time. The January
23rd issue of the Sailor had an article in it, as a matter of fact it was the
headline about the Eurasian Water Milfoil. It's a weed that has a great
potential hazard to our lakes. Last fall it was detected in Lake Minnetonka. It
reproduces rapidly and it grows upward towards the surface at the rate of up to
2 inches a day. Today Pat Swenson who is a former councilwoman and present
Planning Commission member, called me with your concerns over this. She said
that the spread of it is by boats and trailers as they interchange from lake to
lake and she's very concerned that our lakes will be contaminated. I think we
need to address this now before the boating season starts and I think education
to the public is of utmost importance. Perhaps, she suggested, that we draft a
letter to the DNR to get more information, to get their solutions along with
representing our ideas to them. So with that, I'd just like to open it up for
discussion. I
Councilman Boyt: I can add a couple points Ursula. This is probably the second
or third time this has come up in front of the Council. The person to contact
is a Jean Strothman with the Lake Minnetonka Conservation District. The DNR is
really kind of just watching to see what's happening. This Lake Minnetonka
Conservation District is trying to pull together funding to set up a weed
harvesting program in Lake Minnetonka. They think that there is a natural
predator to this that will eventually be cultured and released and the weed will
be in control. This weed has been around I guess for quite a long time and we
may well already have it in the lakes in Chanhassen. It takes a while for it to
sort of make it's presence known even though it grows very quickly. But it
basically grows in anything that's 14 feet deep and shallower, depending upon
water clarity and that's Chanhassen lakes. There's going to be a lot of
lakeshore property that's going to lose tremendous value if we don't move on
this. This problem, as I say, British Columbia has had this problem for an
awfully long time. There's over by Madison, Wisconsin, they have a regular
harvesting program and I forget the big lake in that part of the state. 1
Gary Warren: Mendota.
Councilman Boyt: Okay, but what's typically been done up until now is that if
you get it at an early stage, you basically apply chemicals and kill it. If you
don't get it at an early stage, you invest in a harvester and harvest it.
Councilman Johnson: We need to survey our lakes and find out if we've an of
g Y
infestation so we can kill it at an early stage.
Councilwoman Dimler: We have a job for our weed inspector now.
Councilman Boyt: One other point on this is that it's fairly easy to control
before it gets into the lake in that if the weed dries out on your boat or in
your motor, it dies. But if you have moisture, and boats tend to have moisture,
the weed can do quite a nice job of living in that moisture for a couple of
weeks. Once it's transferred, it's in. I would like to see us move to have the
boat attendant at the public launches, we need to develop a program for those
folks to in some way or another, clean off boats before they enter the lake.
Mayor Chmiel: How can we educate the people?
66
IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 -
Councilman Boyt: One of the things Don with education, I think we could always
I 11 contribute to Minnetonka's effort because that's the source of it. If they
could control it there, that would be great but people aren't going to be
inconvenienced. People will flat out tell you, I haven't been there if it's an
inconvenience so I think we kind of have to hit every boat that goes in. Then
' there's no promise that we've got it because there are all sorts of private boat
launches on the lake. It's a problem.
Councilwoman Dimler: Is it the weed that gets transferred itself or is it the
seed that gets. ..
Councilman Boyt: No, as I understand it, this weed can regenerate from itself.
It doesn't have to have, it's kind of like the stuff that grows in your
aquarium.
Councilwoman Dimler: So if you saw it on your boat though, you would be able to
see it?
Councilman Boyt:. You can see it. You can wash it off and as long as you wash
it off to where it's not going to run into another lake, it dies and that's the
end of it. What they do in Minnetonka is they harvest it, haul it to a landfill
somewhere and let it dry out.
Councilman Johnson: Can they put it in a composting facility?
Mayor Chmiel: How about if we were to request Don to send a letter directly to
the DNR indicating our concerns. Till them that we do have some real close
concerns with all of our lakes within Chanhassen but those lakes also adjoin
into other communities and I think we should involve like Eden Prairie,
Shorewood with Christmas Lake and so on and the other lakes that are affecting
us. Maybe even request that if they're going to be going to some kind of a kill
of that weed, that they draw a moratorium for a year of boats going on our
specific lakes within our city.
Councilman Boyt: Well, this is a long way in the future in a sense but are you
proposing then that we not have boats on the lakes in Chanhassen this next
summer?
Mayor Chmiel: If that's what it's going to take to eliminate the problem.
' There are going to be a lot of people that may be upset with it but if that's
one way of eliminating the problem, maybe that's something we should think
about.
Councilman Johnson: But Lake Minnetonka is going to have it ad infinitim. All
they can do at this point is harvest it so it's going to be this year, next
year, whatever year, it's still going to be out there on Lake Minnetonka so
stopping it one year here doesn't mean the next year it can't. Plus, we don't
have that much control over. We can't do that for one because DNR controls the
lakes.
IMayor Chmiel: They do, that's why I'm saying we should write that to the
Commissioner indicating our concerns and that it should somehow be addressed.
I 67
City Council Meeting - January 23, 1989 II
Councilman Johnson: Is this an issue that maybe we could reinitiate our
enviroinmental committee that used to be here many, many years ago that did our
Shoreland Ordinance and a few other things? The lakes committee. When I look
11:
at an environmental committee, look at wetland alteration permits and EAW's and
a lot of the environmental stuff that comes through here and have somebody who
specializes in that and who could work on these particular type of problems.
Mayor Chmiel: I think it's going to be basically an opinion from DNR as to what
they're going to do.
Councilman Boyt: I can tell you from talking to them, that they don't have the
slightest idea.
Mayor Chmiel: That's why I'm saying, maybe we should start putting some of the '
seed into their heads and maybe it will grow.
Councilman Boyt: But this Jean Strothman with Lake Minnetonka is so far kind of
the expert.
Councilwoman Dimler: Do you have her number?
Councilman Boyt: I've got the number.
Councilman Johnson: I think we should have her come talk to us one day. I
Councilman Boyt: Roger was just talking about Forest Lake's efforts. My guess
is that if the Council makes this a priority item, staff could help us identify I
a lot of good information.
Don Ashworth: Since we're going to have a workshop February 6th, maybe we could
have Ursula provide an update at that point in time. Before I would send out a
letter, maybe we could kind of find out really what we have. I'm not trying to
avoid the issue. If you're going to be calling them, maybe just updating in
that fashion. '
Councilwoman Dimler: That's fine with me.
Lori Sietsema: Staff has talked to the Minnetonka District and also DNR and we 11
have information on file on the pamphlets and the flyers that they have sent out
about this problem. I'll make copies of them and send them to you.
Mayor Chmiel: Because I think it would be a real concern of all the residents
within the City of Chanhassen in utlizing their own boats. If they do go out,
making them at least aware of the situation. Maybe we can eliminate some of it.
I doubt it but at least we can try.
Councilman Boyt: A related weed, purple loosestrife can now be controlled.
Maybe the City should look at funding that for next year. The DNR has a system
where they can do it now. They don't have the money to do it but they have the
technology to do it.
Councilman Johnson: That was the last one that was impossible to control.
68 1
eTh
IICity Council Meeting - January 23, 1989
1 ADMINSTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
Don Ashworth: I just wanted to note that you have distributed a copy of Larry
I Brown's resignation that will occur in two weeks. In all liklihood he will not
be here for our next City Council meeting. We've really enjoyed having Larry as
a member of our staff. He's found an excellent offer that he really can not
turn down so we really wish him the very best.
Mayor Chmiel: Yes, the best of luck. I didn't think I was that hard on you
' Larry.
Larry Brown: I've enjoyed my time here and wish Chanhassen the very best.
11 Mayor Chmiel: The last time, rather ickl . Social qu y oc al get together.
' Councilman Johnson: I'm looking at kind of an open house type of deal, city
open house. As far as invite the general public, developers, consultants to the
City and everything to get together. To meet the new councilmembers. Meet the
older councilmenbers. Also, to advertise to meet staff. Here's our Park and
Rec people. Here's Larry who won't be here anymore. I think it will be good to
introduce everybody in the public and that kind of thing. Is anybody interested
in doing it?
Councilman Boyt: Sure.
ICouncilman Johnson: We could have staff look at it.
Councilman Boyt: Would you guys be interested in reconsidering the portable
1 breathalyzer?
Councilwoman Dimler: No.
Councilwoman Dimler moved, Councilman Workman seconded to adjourn the meeting.
All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:55
i p.m..
Submitted by Don Ashworth
City Manager
Prepared by Nann Opheim
I
I
' 69
CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JANUARY 18 , 1989
Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7: 30 p.m. .
' MEMBERS PRESENT: Ladd Conrad, Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings , Annette Ellson,
Jim Wildermuth and David Headla
' MEMBERS ABSENT: Brian Batzli.
STAFF PRESENT: Steve Hanson, City Planner and Larry Brown, Asst . City
' Engineer
(Due to technical failure of the audio equipment , the meeting could not be
recorded. Therefore, the Minutes are summarized rather than verbatim. )
PUBLIC HEARING:
SITE PLAN REVIEW AND A VARIANCE TO THE PARKING LOT REQUIREMENTS FOR A 696
SQUARE FOOT ADDITION TO THE CHANHASSEN TACO SHOP ON PROPERTY ZONED CBD,
' CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT AND LOCATED AT 195 WEST 78TH STREET, GUY
PETERSON.
' Public Present :
Mr . and Mrs . Guy Peterson - Applicants
Steve Hanson presented the staff report on this item.
The applicants , Mr . and Mrs . Guy Peterson , stated that the issue stated in
the staff report that negotiations for acquisition of the Taco Shop due to
the realignment of TH 101, were unknown to them until they had received
the staff report. They stated that the City had made comments a few years
back but not recently.
The Planning Commission discussed the item and were concerned about the
lack of information provided to them and that they really didn' t have
anything to react to. They talked of denying the item, as staff had
' recommended, passing it onto City Council without a recommendation or
tabling the item so the applicants could provide more information . The
following motion was decided upon after discussion with the Planning
Commission and a recommendation from Councilman Jay Johnson.
Emmings moved, Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend to
table action on the Site Plan Review and variance to the parking lot for
Chanhassen Taco Shop and pass it onto the City Council for their
recommendation and to put a priority on whether this property would be
affected by TH 101 and TH 5. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
I
•
Planning Commission Meeting
January 18 , 1989 - Page 2
PUBLIC HEARING:
SITE PLAN REVIEW FOR A 97 , 600 SQUARE FOOT OFFICE/MANUFACTURING/WAREHOUSE
FACILITY ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP, INDUSTRIAL OFFICE PARK AND LOCATED ON LOTS
1, 2, 3 AND 4, PARK ONE THIRD ADDITION, VER-SA-TIL, R. JOHNSON
CONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT.
Public Present :
Del Bogema - Applicant
Bob Vetter - Engineer for Applicant
Steve Hanson presented the staff report on this item.
Bob Veeter , the applicant' s engineer gave a short presentation on the
application. The Commission asked Bob Veeter and Del Bogema some
questions about the location of the building, it ' s design, what the
company did, if they had any hazardous materials and if so, how they would II
dispose of those. The Commission seemed to feel that it was an overall
good plan and made the following motion.
Ellson moved , Erhart seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of Site Plan #88-18 based on the plans stampted "Received
December 27 , 1988" and revised plans stamped "Received January 11 , 1989"
subject to the following conditions:
1. Additional landscaping be provided in the parking area. Specifically,
this should include converting 8 parking stalls to landscaped areas.
2. All rooftop mechanical equipment will need to be screened and detailed
plans provided.
3. Details on exterior lighting need to be submitted and approved by City
Staff showing that lighting is screened and will not be visible from
adjacent properties .
4. Conditions from referral agencies : '
a . The building must be sprinklered .
- b. A checklist of requirements is attached that must be a part of the
building permit process .
c . Fire hydrants need to have a spacing of 300 foot maximum.
d. Fire Department needs 25 foot minimum clear width on parking rows
for emergency vehicles .
e. Inside trash storage area shall be protected by an improved
automatic sprinkler system.
5. The applicant shall receive and comply with all conditions of the
Watershed District permit.
6. The applicant shall install all erosion controls prior to the 1
commencement of any construction. All erosion controls shall remain
11
Planning Commission Meeting
January 18 , 1989 - Page 3
'
in place throughout the duration of construction. The developer shall
be responsible for making periodic checks of all erosion controls and
making any repairs promptly.
7. The plans shall be revised to incorporate the City' s standard driveway
apron for commercial development as depicted in Attachment #1 of City
Engineer ' s memo.
8. The plans shall be revised to include typical sections for both types
of driveway surfaces .
9. The applicant shall be responsible for all debris and clean up on and
off site resulting from the construction of this site.
10. The applicant' s engineer shall provide the City with a full set of "As
Built" mylar reproducable copies prior to receiving a certificate of
occupancy.
11. Conditioned upon the replatting of the site by the applicant .
' 12. Add an inflammable waste trap.
All voted in favor and the motion carried .
IP:
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Erhart moved, Wildermuth seconded to approve the
Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated January 4 , 1989 as
presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried .
Wildermuth moved , Ellson seconded to adjourn the meeting . All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 8: 35 p.m. .
' Submitted by Steve Hanson
City Planner
Prepared by Nann Opheim
1
I
I
I.
II CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 1, 1989
IChairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7 : 30 p.m. .
I MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings, Ladd Conrad, Annette Ellson,
Brian Batzli and David Headla
MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Wildermuth
II
STAFF PRESENT: Steve Hanson, Planning Director and Larry Brown, Asst .
City Engineer
II
PUBLIC HEARING:
I CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT EXTENSION REQUEST FOR A CONTRACTOR' S YARD ON
PROPERTY ZONED BF AND LOCATED ON THE NORTH SIDE OF TH 212 AND THE EAST
SIDE OF TH 101, PATRICK BLOOD AND NANCY LEE, ADMIRAL WASTE MANAGEMENT.
1 Public Present:
Name Address
IN.A. Monroe 565 Lakota Lane, P.O. Box 115, Chaska
Verne Severson 675 Lakota Lane, Chaska
I Linda Seavick 508 Lyn Park Lane, Minneapolis 55411
Margaret (Christoff) Pribula 4949 Queen Avenue No. , Minneapolis 55430
Jim Sellerud 730 Vogelsberg Trail
ISteve Hanson presented the staff report on this item.
Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order .
IPatrick Blood : I 'm Patrick Blood. I 'm one of the owners. When we first
came into the property, we came in with the idea of contractor' s yard as
I such. A lot of people, they hear contractor ' s yards, to simplify it
I guess is more or less like a garage type area . We planned on some
warehouse. I 'm sure you' re all aware of our first plans . At the time we
presented this first idea to the Council , we at that time didn' t have too
I much knowledge of what the cities were going to have to do as far as
mandating their recycling programs . We actually work 6 different cities
at this time. When we found out of all the stipulations and everything in
I recycling, it sort of changed our position on the piece of land. Not
that we don ' t want it. It ' s just that we ' ve always had the intentions of
putting a respectable recycling center up. If you want to call that
I contractors yard besides , well , I guess that ' s where it lays. Since we ' ve
started 4 years ago, we've been parked behind a barn in one area which was
behind 2 homes . We' ve had no impact in that 2 1/2 years at that facility.
The facility that we are at now is a 3 bay garage Lester building . We are
I renting a portion of this building . When we moved in, we actually
improved that facility by just cleaning it up and even the people that are
around that facility have no complaints of what we' re operating with now.
II But what we'd like to see now is not much change in what we presented the
first time around . It ' s what the idea of eventually putting up a
recyclable center where people can come and drop off their recyclables. A
1
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 2 '
lot of people will then again say, well , we' ve got storage. The facility 1
that we' re thinking about putting in there, or are going to try to put in,
isn' t like a sort separation like the Reuter plan that I 'm sure you' re all
aware of. Ours will be more or less a transfer station from one truck to
the other . Delivered to the markets that day and whatever storage is left
over will be from that day and then disposed of the next day. In order to
do this , we need a little bit more room. When we had first brought this
to the City' s attention, we were only going to utilize the first 5 acres
of this piece of property with the intentions of down the road either
selling or utilizing the rest of the 8 acres in the future. Now we see
with the City' s help and maybe the County' s help, I just touched on Carver II
County and that, with everybody' s help maybe we can put in a decent ,
respectable recycling center . That ' s where our intentions lay. This will
in fact have to utilize the whole 13 acres instead of the 5. The plans
will probably have to extend over a longer period of time because
everything is so iffy in the recycling that new ideas are coming up every
day and we just have to go with the flow. But that ' s our intentions for
this piece of property. I 'm sure everybody in the cities now a days know
that this type of facility is the thing of the future and we' re all going
to have to have it. In order to have it and have a decent one, we' re all
going to have to work together to make sure it is . That ' s where Nancy and
I stand. I just hope the City feels that together we can make this a
respectable clean place. Whether you put it in the contents of
contractor ' s yard or recycling center, I don' t know.
Conrad : Okay, thanks Patrick. Why don' t you stay there for a minute.
Steve, clarify something for me. Patrick is talking about something
different than what we originally saw and we don' t know what' s different .
It may be bigger or traffic. Something ' s changing but we don' t know what
it is and he hasn' t told us because maybe he ' s not sure right at this
time. Our options right now is, based on what you laid our for us, is he
can reapply later on. We can basically turn down the extension and have
him reapply but tell me a little bit more about the difference? We can
extend this but if we extend what he ' s got , he' s really asking for
something probably different than what we originally saw the first time
through. I 'm guessing . I don' t know.
Patrick Blood: Maybe I can fill you in a little bit more of what we 've
been thinking about as of now. You can work with us or whatever you like
but what we'd like to see, being that this is also new and so many new
ideas coming into this industry, what we'd like to do is maybe put it in
phases. Approximately the same as what we got up there but naturally the
building , the first building that we do establish up there will have to be
more or less a garage area and an office area to even get started and to
put possibly in the main grading or whatever . Then possibly down the
road, extend in phases rather than all at once because there' s no way I
can stand up here and be truthful to everybody and say I know exactly
what' s going to happen and it' s going to go in this way. That' s
impossible at this point. But I do see going in and maybe doing the
grading. Being able to utilize a transfer type facility so we can
transfer the recyclables from one truck into the other . Possibly putting
up the garage building area with the City' s approval and everything and
then down the road , depending on the new methods and everything they come
1
Planning Commission Meeting
' February 1, 1989 - Page 3
' up with, a source recycling center of some kind to where we can abolish as
much of the garbage as extreme as we can get .
Conrad : I think we have to understand a little bit more about what you' re
talking, when you' re talking recycling, I don' t know what we mean yet so
hang on. But going back Steve, if Patrick wants to intensify what he ' s
currently got, he has to come back in for another conditional use period?
Hanson: That ' s correct .
' Conrad : I 'm not sure what we' re really, if we turn down the extension
tonight, what' s the impact on the applicant? Obviously he' s got an
approval to do what he wants to do right now but basically if we continue
that approval , it' s kind of like saying you' ve got that but there' s no
guarantee that we ' re going to let you do anything beyond that . I think
what he needs is a consensus of the future. You don' t want to just put in
Phase 1. You may want to go through Phase 4 but if we don' t let you go to
' 2 , 3 and 4, you don' t want to do 1. I guess mechanically, Steve what do
you think we should be doing here?
Hanson : I think there are a couple things that can happen. What they
obviously want to do is protect what they have at this point in time .
Secondly, I thikn they' re being very up front in saying , we' re going to be
' doing some other stuff with recycling but we don' t know what it ' s going to
be yet because a lot of the cities , including Chanhassen, have not made
that decision. I think some of the cities are looking at doing
essentially a one year trial period , if you will , on recycling to see
what' s going to work and how that comes out and how that' s done affects
what they' re going to want to do in dealing with that . It ' s kind of a
dilemma. On one hand when that happens , they' re going to have to come
back and adjust the conditional use permit . There ' s two ways . You can
look at it from the standpoint of, well if you know they' re going to have
to amend it anyway, then it doesn ' t make sense to extend something that
you know isn' t right. Is that creating more of a problem or less of a
problem? I think in all honesty it ' s really a toss up .
Conrad: Before we get some more comments here, tell us a little bit about
' what you think recycling means . In terms of your operation, what is
recycling? You said people are coming in and dropping off . Who' s
dropping off? What is this future recycling center that you mentioned?
' Patrick Blood : I guess the only way I can explain it now and give
everybody a good idea , is Reuter ' s has got a sort separation. The garbage
truck comes in, he dumps it on the floor and then people pick it apart on
the floor , then it' s shoved into these conveyers . From conveyers it goes
up into the rest of his operation, whatever separation goes on in his
building . What we are going to go into and most of the cities are going
with this, is curbside recycling. It' s the only way actually to do it .
When you get into curbside recycling , you get away from dumping the
garbage on the floor. The people are actually doing it on the curb which
is a lot safer for them and a lot cleaner and when it comes to our end of
it.
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 4
Conrad : The consumer is separating you mean? ,
Patrick Blood: Right. That' s what the curbside service is all about.
Once this operation is done at the curb, we pick it up in separated
vehicles. We bring it in. We put it in, right from one truck or trailer , II
whatever we pick it up in, into a bigger truck or trailer and it goes
right off to market. There is no dumping it on the floor . Plus we' re
only dealing in glass , aluminum, paper , recyclables . Maybe the only thing
that might be a little contagious or dangerous or whatever you want to
accept it as is maybe like car batteries which we put on a pallet until
such time as you get 25 of them and then they go to market. I think when
it comes to the garage end of it , it ' s like Eden Prairie now. They are
going curbside recycling with the remainder going to Reuter so that almost
eliminates your storage of garbage at our facility. The only storage we
will have at our facility from one day to the other is your aluminum,
glass , paper , your different kinds of metals, anything that ' s recyclable
today that there - is a market for. And if you think about it, about the
only thing that might be a little contaminating about that is your car
batteries which that problem can be easily solved as far as storage goes .
Just don ' t store it for very long and make sure you' ve got , you put it on
the right kind of things to where acid won ' t get into your water stream
and stuff like this , which only makes sense . That ' s the type of facility
that we' re doing. We' ve got our equipment coming. We' re setting up in
this particular way and this piece of land is what we 'd like to utilize
down the road with the City' s and the County' s , here we haven' t really
touched into it . I called Carver County just the other day and asked them
what type of, if there was any such thing as funding towards these kinds
of operations now that it ' s all coming into being . They said, yes . I
haven' t really touched on it but like I said, it' s the thing of the
future. It ' s here and everybody' s got to do it. It ' s just a matter of
where do you want it in your city. How do you want it done and do you II want a good facility or do you want somebody to just walk in and do it any
old way and that' s never good so it' s better to be up front and work with
everybody.
Emming : I 'd just like to know when you talk about recycling , do you
foresee that people will be driving to this center?
Patrick Blood : Yes I do. For everybody' s convenience •i.n this City,
that' s what they need because how many times have you had a tire in your
garage and didn' t know where the heck to bring it? Different things like
this . It' s convenience to the people and it ' s just got to be there. It' s
a part of the service.
Emming : Then would there be someone , would you have hours that it would
be closed at certain times?
Patrick Blood : Yes . I
Emmings : And how people couldn' t get into the site?
Patrick Blood: Yes . '
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 5
Emmings: And how do you foresee people handling that?
Patrick Blood: There are two different ways we can do this because when
' you start collecting aluminum, well right now you ' re talking the
possibility of theft. They' re coming out with a container now for
different types of roll-off equipment and these containers are divided up
and they've got lids that can be locked down and locked up. What can' t be
stored inside, can be locked up outside. Then you' ve always got the
option of fence. During the open hours , naturally people, it will be
manned during the hours it is open for the people that bring in their
II • stuff. So all the hours that it is open, it will be policed. The hours
that it is closed , it can be locked up, fenced up. There are all kinds
of different facilities for policing as far as even putting dogs on the
' property to keep the theft rate down. I guess that ' s about all I can say.
Nancy Lee: I 'm Nancy Lee. I 'm the other half of Admiral . We just
received a couple of these letters here and I glanced over them and it
seems like the neighbor ' s biggest concern is that it' s going to be smell
like you' re living in a garbage can . As Pat had mentioned , there really
is no storing of garbage. The garbage we have is in the trucks and the
' trucks go to the dump all the time to empty. Several times a day. We
don't want that smell there anymore than the neighbors want it there. So
there is no storage of garbage and there is no problem with rats and
things like that. We don' t have garbage anywhere but in a sealed truck.
The garbage truck with a packer . Another reason we thought that property
would be so nice was because the borderlines are TH 212 and TH 101. The
back of it is railraod tracks and the other side is other commercial
buildings. The only house that you can see from that piece of property is
on the far end of the land that we haven ' t designated to build on at this
point and that ' s up above the railroad tracks and I don' t know how much
they can see in. I noticed they said, they were worried about the houses
looking down into garbage trucks. There' s no feasible way they could see
them unless they come out on the road and look over our property. I know
' people have a general feeling when you say garbage company, you ' re
thinking filth . We foresee sod and flowers and trees and nice things. We
don' t foresee a pit. As a matter of fact, there are some resident' s
households around there that, I would never let my property get like that .
' I guess I just feel there' s a real misconception that people feel that a
garbage company is filthy and we would like to prove them wrong .
Verne Severson: My name is Verne Severson and I live at 675 Lakota Lane.
We' re the owners of the property just north of this proposed site , across
the railroad tracks. We have a few objections or concerns I guess I 'd
like to discuss with you . These concerns have led us to object to this .
'
First of all , I guess the most important is that we ' re concerned about the
impact of the traffic in that area . The traffic at this intersection , at
TH 101, TH 212 and TH 169 is really terrible the way it is now. It' s
' almost impossible during sometimes of the day to make a left hand turn off
TH 101 onto TH 212 and adding a facility down there that involved people
driving in and out and large cumbersome garbage trucks , seems to only
' compound the situation. It certainly wouldn ' t help it. Second, we feel
that adding a facility for storage and maintenance of garbage trucks in
our neighborhood can only reduce our property value. We would welcome
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 6
neighbors who are willing to come in and help make the area look nicer and
I understand. I believe they' re intentions on doing this. However, the
fact is , in the public ' s mind , a waste facility is still a garbage
facility and when it comes time to selling your property and the
perspective buyer realizes that there ' s a garbage facility in the
neighborhood, it ' s going to have an impact on it. There' s just no way
around that . Third , I guess we feel that , and this is more of the same
points, we feel that adding a facility like this in our neighborhood and
in Chanhassen and such a highly visible area of Chanhassen as this i.s ,
isn't really wise city planning because this is after all the southern
entrance of Chanhassen. People coming from the south, from the racetrack '
or from southern Minnesota. That' s the first entrance into Chanhassen.
The first place they' re going to see and I guess we don' t think that
leaves a good impression of the city if it' s right on a main road .
Fourth, I think especially based on what we heard tonight , that this is
stretching the definition of a contractor ' s yard. I think you city
planners have to look at that more carefully because now we' re talking a
recycling center which means people driving in. There' s a business going
on . There' s going to be a lot of noise generated . That' s a lot different
than a contractor ' s yard where you ' re just storing and parking vehicles
that' s used in construction business . I glanced at the City Code and
their definition talked about vehicles used in construction business and
not a business such as this so I think you've got to look at that .
Finally, I guess it ' s questionable whether this really does enhance the
tax base of that area. I think there could be another, more wise use of
that piece of property than this kind of facility. I appreciate the
opportunity to express my concerns . I have a letter where I spelled this
out and addressed to Steve Hanson. I have one question , if I may. What
is the next step on this? All you people do is, not all you do but you
make recommendations to City Council .
Conrad: In two weeks our recommendation will go to City Council .
Verne Severson: Is that meeting open to the public?
Conrad: It sure is . We conduct the public hearing and gather the input
from whoever wants to speak to the issue . At City Council level , they can
entertain comments from the audience if they so choose. I find it
typically real valid to stick with the issue through City Council .
Emmings: They see a verbatim transcript of transpires here too .
Verne Severson : How are we notified of the meetings or do we just have to
watch?
Conrad : In this particular case it is scheduled , not it ' s not scheduled .
Hanson: It' s not scheduled yet. In all likelihood it would be on the '
meeting on the 27th rather than the 13th .
Conrad: But because it' s not a public hearing, then the individual 11 property owners are not specifically notified like they are for a public
hearing. So the thing you do is either call City Hall and find out what' s
1
Planning Commission Meeting
' February 1, 1989 - Page 7
going on and when or you watch the Chanhassen Villager where the agenda is
posted. One or the other. As Steve mentioned, he said in all likelihood
it' s going to be on the 27th but he hasn' t turned out the agenda .
Verne Severson: I guess in summary, I 'm all in favor of recycling and
whatever but I think this is the wrong site for that kind of facility. I
' think they should find another site that won' t compound the traffic
problems and maybe isn ' t so close to . . .
N.A. Monroe , 565 Lakota Avenue: My property is north and east of this
' proposed facility. I oppose this facility and I 'm sorry to have to do
this because I believe in private business and I 'm a small business person
myself and I really hate to come out against somebody' s little business
but that is just not the correct site for this kind of an operation. TH
101 is somewhat hazardous now. In fact , if we get more snow tonight ,
there will cars sliding down that road tonight. Having garbage trucks and
industrial trucks moving up and down TH 101, I think would be extremely
' dangerous. Last year we had a cement truck that went out of control on
Highway 101 and killed the driver down at that site . The school buses
that carry children from Chanhassen, the drivers have orders not to use
that highway when the buses are loaded with children. The Salton bus
company will not permit it' s buses to go up and down TH 101 when they' re
loaded . It is somewhat dangerous . We had a semi jack knife down there at
the bridge again and right at that site. It tied up traffic for half a
day about a year ago. It ' s just not a good location for that . You' re
going to need a holding tank for your washing and I don' t know how large a
holding tank you can build but I know they have perpensity for leaking and
' overflowing. I think you' re going to need a location that has water and
sewer and somewhat level property for all the handling of these materials.
That' s a beautiful , quiet rural area and there are a lot of very expensive
homes. Not only on our side of TH 101 but over on the Hesse Farm. I don' t
know if those people are aware of this development. I think you have
several over there that look down on it. I 'm not sure . You can see them
coming up TH 101. I think anything that increases industrial traffic on
TH 101 will create a hazard . Thank you.
Jim Sellerud: My name is Jim Sellerud. I live at 730 Vogelsberg Trail
'
which is not an overlooking site but it' s on the hill going up or down.
I appeared before you a year ago and I came off rather mildly I think. I
indicated some concerns for the City' s general approach to that entrance
' area to Chanhassen and the traffic planning there. I guess I figured at
that time it was going to be so obviously inappropriate to place this use
there that I didn' t have to come off very strongly but I guess you were
' led to other conclusions . I think it ' s appropriate, as I see it
appropriate for all the Planning Commission is to enhance all areas of the
City. That is to promote their best use and sometimes it ' s said, highest
and best use but I think you ought to be interested in having all areas of
' the city come to some fruition either as a resi.dental area , agricultural
or whatever and not to leave parts of the City out and not to have them
left over areas that kind of are the catch all to use . Business fringe
sort of has some of that connotation. Other conditional uses I think
maybe habitually fall into some of those but I think in fairness to these
people, I think you should, or fairness to any kind of development, your
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 8 ,
endorsement or approval should indicate a whole hearty approach to what
they' re doing and promote not just a minimal kind of activity but
hopefully they will prosper . As you hear them speaking , they' re very
interested in prospering and that their activity would grow in the City
and the conditional uses should not overwhelmingly burden that activity.
Yet when I read the conditional uses that were imposed on them in the
past , it sort of sounded like a begrudging approval . That well you can do
it but, and then there was 26 or whatever conditions that seemed to have
been a burden on them. Financially I think some of the things would be
kind of stiff as a capital investment to get into unless they are figuring
on some bigger kind of activity. I think you ought to look to a 20 year
plan where they' re going to be, not just what they' re starting out in the
first or second year but you should behind their dreams for 20 years down
the line, as you would with any business. I guess with that in mind, I '
think it' s even increasingly inappropriate to say that ' s the place to put
this kind of facility. I guess I have faith in them that they would
maintain a clean yard . There would be no rodent problems. No odor II problems and maybe no visual impact problems. Maybe it would operate like
a UPS where you'd have clean items come i.n, clean items go out and the
public would have some access to those sites but if you 'd envisioned a UPS
facility that I happen to have a business near one , it ' s a traffic
generater. As they get busier , there' s traffic coming in and out. They
say they look forward to having the public in general coming in and off
that site. To further endorse the traffic concerns, if you picture the
site and maybe the map shows enough detail , when you come under the
railroad bridge , vehicles coming this way, if they were to make a left
hand turn, would have to stop, come almost to a stop. Mr . Teich came down
on his tractor a couple years ago. He navigated that for probably 50
years but he rolled his tractor there so you almost have to come to a stop
in order to make a left hand turn and certainly with increasing traffic
turning to make a stop to take a left hand turn onto that site . To make a
left hand turn and make a stop here, with the current traffic volumes
during most times of the day, traffic is going to back up behind you.
You' ll have one vehicle behind you or 2 vehicles behind you also stopped .
Soon you've got 2 or 3 vehicles stopped up behind there, you ' re
immediately under this bridge. In terms of sight lines, you' re not going
to see those cars or vehicles stopped in that traffic lane. Right now
people are. . .Mr . Teich' s tractor going up and down the hill once in a
while. But you' re going to have an immediate hazard and an increasing
hazard with any turning operations that this might involve. Whether or
not you put in turning lanes or not , you' re going to have a hazard that
presents itself to unsuspecting drivers . For the other way, you' ll be
able to have a right turn onto their property without as much difficulty
but with the TH 101 alignment that I see here, everything is aimed at
increasing traffic volumes on TH 101. Purely from a traffic standpoint ,
if the access is on TH 101 rather than as I hoped any of these uses down
here would be off of TH 212, as I talked to you a year ago, it' s just
inconceiveable that you would promote any use that would be more than a
residential use on that site . Any business use whatsoever is
inappropriate I think coming off at that point and certainly not to
promote additional uses with the public . Calling for the public to come
in and off that site. I also am concerned about the flavor of that whole
south part of the city being the entrance to the city. The HRA or the
1
Planning Commission Meeting
1 February 1, 1989 - Page 9
' City put up the nice sign over here saying Welcome to Chanhassen . I think
those of us who live a little further south like to think it' s welcome to
Chanhassen down at the Y as well . That ' s our front door rather than
' I hope it isn' t the backdoor next to the alley. I would hope that you
people wouldn' t approach it that way. Some of the conditional uses that
have been permitted down there tend to fall in that catch all kind of
category. Where do we put them? Somebody bought the property. Well ,
we' ve got to let them use it. I think the Planning Commission can be more
aggresive in permitting uses. Looking down the line, I guess I 've got a
couple other questions on the , I 'm not sure if you' re the present owners
' of the property. The Teich house was burned by the City some time ago as
a training exercise . It stands partially burned . Partially standing . .
It' s a little indicative maybe of concern that they haven' t fulfilled,
' typically what would happen , I would guess the City would ask that it be
leveled and debris removed or whatever but it remains in an unsatisfactory
situation. Down the line , I don' t know what the Planning Commission has
had any involvement in the use of the rail corridor. Obviously that' s
' been discussed at the County level and somewhat at the City and probably
before you. The indications that I hear is that, and read, is that they
need wider right-of-way along that part of Chanhassen. It seems to me
' that appropriate uses through this area may be, it may be that some of us
neighbors , you may hear some neighbors in that area saying , well no let ' s
not have light rail transit or let ' s not have a trail corridor going
' through there but we already have that and it seems to me, from my
personal point of view, I think that ' s an appropriate type of use for that
southern part of the city. Enhancing connections to the corridor links
which is TH 212, TH 169 and those support facilities . Hotels , motels , gas
' stations . They seem to fit . I 'd like them to be in good condition. I 'd
like them to be run well but that' s the kind of transition I think people
expect coming into the City. I would guess 20 years down the line that
that' s a logical place for a transit stop connecting to Shakopee. People
to park and get on the transit facility or something . I recall train
rides or transit rides, some city' s transits and the people who ride those
look at what ' s along the transit routes . They enjoy certain aspects .
Chanhassen has a beautiful route along there. Either for a bike trail or
a transit facility and I hope that that area down there just doesn ' t
become sort of the forgotten waste land for the city and you kind of let
' it develop into odd places and pole barns and so forth. Anyway, those are
my concerns. I think some uses kind of fit and may be appropriate.
I know Planning Commissions and City Councils are often , feel their
' hostage to previous councils and previous actions because, well , as long
as somebody approved it in the past and these poor people have made some
investment, well , we've got to let them have their . This is America after
all , we' ve got to let them do what they can do. In this case at least ,
' there' s not been a capital investment. Substantial capital investment
other than the property. If you ' re going to turn it around , as you should
obviously, this is the time to do it. Let them come in with their bigger
' plans rather than let it slip in now because if they put in some capital
investment on a small scale, the pressure will be on you to approve the
next one and approve the next one as you see many of those . You ' ve got
' many of those cases in your history. So I guess that takes care of my
comments .
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 10
Emmings moved , Batzli seconded to close the public hearing . All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed .
Headla : That land down there sewered? We all remember the discussion, we
talked about the well and I think you people had some good documentation
and good rationale. We got into quite a discussion on the traffic at that
time but, you had a dock and you had a concrete building and . . . This time
I feel I 'm in the dark. I don ' t know what you' re really proposing. I
haven' t seen documentation. I don' t know enough about it to even ask
really any questions .' Before I could even make a recommendation one way
or the other, I 'd want to see some documentation on what you' re proposing .
I 'm assuming this is grossly different than what you came in with a year
ago. What I hear you say now and what I think you' re doing, I can really
support it if you' re in an industrial area . Industrial park. But what I
think you' re proposing, and I haven' t seen documentation, I 'd be very
skeptical about it in this situation. I think the traffic is an extremely
serious problem there. I just shudder with that hill. I like to bicycle
and if I start going down that hill and I have semis going down there
behind me, I shudder about it. There' s a lot of traffic on that road .
The other one is, I just don' t think that type of operation fits into that
area in our business fringe district. Put it in another place, then I
could support that 100% .
Batzli : I guess those my sentiments to some extent . I don' t believe that
what is currently being proposed fits the definition of contractor ' s yard .
It actually fits the definition of junk yard in our Zoning Ordinance and I
don' t think junk yard is allowed in any district. I know solid waste
landfill isn ' t allowed in any district and I can ' t find where junk yard is II
allowed. So that raises the issue in my mind of what exactly are they
trying to do. If they' re just trying to extend their application, which
is what you got at, would they still go ahead if all they can do is build
Phase 1, which we' ve already looked at because I have no idea of what
Phase 2 is but it sounds a lot like it' s not a contractor ' s yard and I
would never vote to put it in this district as a contractor ' s yard the way
it' s been described. I 'm unclear as to what they really want at this
point .
Conrad : They want an extension . '
Ellson : I don' t have anything new. I 'm thinking exactly the same thing .
I would want to see what the new thing is because it' s not just an
extension of the current, it' s an ongoing , long lived type of set up and I
can understand how difficult it must be when even the cities don' t know
how they want to handle recycling yet you want to be the servicer of
recycling. Maybe something that somebody else has done in an areal that' s II
already, maybe your input to the City will help them decide what the
recycling should be if you came up with directions but gosh, I find it
hard to say, okay let ' s extend it and then having it be something totally II different so I 'd rather see something totally different, if that' s exactly
what it' s eventually going to be.
Emmings : I agree that since the plan seems to have changed . I don' t see II
much sense in extending an approval for a plan that now is going to
11
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 11
' change. I think we should act on a plan that we can see rather than
something that' s as up in the air as this seems to be. I think that the
contemplation of having a facility that the public would use adds a
'
dimension to the traffic that wasn' t there before and I think is a very
serious problem. I 'm a little confused about what we did last time
frankly. It seems like they have a conditional use. The staff report
says they have a conditional use for a contractor ' s yard , conditional use
permit for a contractor ' s yard but when I look under the conditional uses
in the business fringe in the Ordinance, contractor ' s yard is not one of
those.
Hanson: I can clarify that. There was a change made to the Code prior to
their application coming in that added contractor ' s yards to the BF
district. I had that same question when I first looked at it and it does
not show up in the most recently printed code but there has been an
amendment that allows that as a conditional use in the BF district .
IEmmings: Alright , then that clears that up. But, there is no conditional
use for a recycling center . It seems to me we'd have to amend the
ordinance to include a recycling center and attempt to establish, what we
' like to do with conditional uses , try and establish some standards and a
recycling center I think has never come up. I don' t know if we' ve ever
looked at that in any detail . I don' t recall that we have. That ' s
' another step that I think we'd have to go through either before or at the
same time that we have a concrete proposal in front of us . Layered on top
of this of course is the fact that we' ve recently taken some action or
been looking at taking contractor ' s yards totally out and not allowing
contractor ' s yards at all in our city. This is something that happened ,
since we approved yours and as I recall , we were pretty unanimous that we
didn' t want contractor ' s yards . That was going to be our recommendation
to the City Council is that there not be contractor ' s yards in Chanhassen.
They not be allowed here anymore, which is taking 180 degree turn since
they were here and made their earlier application but I don ' t think we can
ignore that. I 'm the one that made the motion to approve this and I
recall several times thinking that I had done the wrong thing . Frankly
I look at this . Number one, I think we shouldn' t extend it because we
don' t know what it is they' re going to do and they' ve got to come in with
' a new plan anyway. Number two, I frankly think this is an opportunity to
rectify what I think was a mistake in approving it last time.
' Erhart : I think what I ' ve heard tonight is definitely not a contractor ' s
yard. It' s a business dealing with garbage , garbage trucks, whatever but
it' s similar to a contractor ' s yard in that it' s a business that has a lot
of outside activity. Like any business, it' s got to grow or it doesn' t
go . That' s the nature of business . In that sense, it emphasizes what
I 've always said and that is that contractor ' s yards and recycling or
garbage businesses out to be in industrial parks where they can grow
' without an intrusion into a residential area. I think it sounds like a
great business . My personal feelings are, I think you' re right , recycling
is the future. I would like to see us take a positive stand on the whole
' issue and try to better understand what recycling is from the Planning
Commission standpoint. I think I understand a little bit and I think we
all think it' s a good idea and we ought to be supporting recycling . If
I
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 12
that' s the case , then I think we ought to take it as a task to find a
place in the City as a designated district that we could not only allow to
let Mr . Blood and Ms . Lee but perhaps encourage them and maybe even
financially support building this kind of a business and putting in a
place where it could grow over a 20 year period and support the City' s
effort on garbage recycling . . . . I just don' t think it fits the
contractor ' s yard description that we have which is essentially an area of
use of land for building, excavating, roadway construction, landscaping
and similiar contractor ' s . I voted against the last , the last time this
came before us . I could go through and repeat all the things I think most
of us said here . The thing that I probably didn ' t hit on last time is
that when garbage trucks operate, they do make a lot of noise. Again, I
think it just , because of that , it fits into an industrial site where that
noise can be isolated from residential areas . I guess with that, again, II I haven' t changed my mind since the last time. The only thing I 'd like to
add is I 'd like to see us take on the task of finding an area for
recycling .
Conrad : Steve, do you know what ' s happening to our current recycling
project? It was scraped right? I was waiting to do that .
Hanson : The facility down at the public works building?
Conrad: Yes .
Hanson : Yes , that has been . We ' re in the process of putting together an
RFP that we' ll be taking to Council for their authorization to send out to
contractors hopefully at the next council meeting that that would be
authorized which would be a one year , if you will , test period is what
we' re looking at right now. It' s kind of an educational thing and a test
program to get it going which a lot of the cities are starting and some of
them are farther ahead of us and some of us are farther behind .
Conrad: Who' s spearheading any kind of recycling effort here? Is it the
City Council? '
Hanson : Staffwise , Jo Ann is so that ' s been part of the time lag . She
and I , as a matter of fact , just met today about getting that to Council
at this next meeting .
Conrad : Any community pressures? Any community members talking about
recycling in your brief period here?
Hanson: I ' ve gotten several calls . Both in response to what was there
before and it not being there now. Also, just because of the publicity I
that had been out before about when is the curbside recycling going to
start taking place so I think there has been an interest out there. I
don ' t have any way of gauging how strong that is . '
Conrad: Well, we' re doing a miserable job. I guess we can take some of
the credit because we haven ' t been doing much in terms of forcing those 11 issues and assuming that somebody else is doing it. It' s real pathetic.
I hope we start doing something more aggressive. In terms of the issue at
I
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 13
hand , on the one hand I 'm really glad you' re in here . You ' re really up
front with us and I appreciate that. Usually that ' s the positive. Now
the negative comments . It sounds like you have something different in
mind than what you' re talking about because of recycling. I 'd want to,
when we grant a conditional use or something , I really want to feel
comfortable that we' re encouraging businesses , one of our people in the
' public hearing said, I think you want to encourage it for a period of 20
years or so. We want to think it' s growing and prosperous and we can
count on it and whatever . Based on what you' re saying in terms of your
growth, I honestly don' t think, and I 'm speaking for myself, but I think I
' can read the Council a little bit , at least the past Council and probably
the Planning Commission, I just don' t think we could grant you additional
ways to grow down there based on what your needs are. It' s sort of out of
' sync with what our visions are of contractor ' s yard. In fact, it ' s not in
sync at all . Therefore, what I think is appropriate is what Tim said . I
think we have to give a directive to staff and say, where do we locate
'
something like this in Chanhassen? Economically, what makes sense? I
have a hard time believing that in our industrial park can economically
hold a recycling center but I don' t know the economics. I don' t know that
but I think it' s up to the Chanhassen staff and the groups to at least try
and figure that out . I think it ' s something that we need . I think we
have to decide if Chanhassen needs to designate a zone or an area or
whatever where recycling can take place . But what I 'm hearing tonight , I
' think it' s really inappropriate that, based on what I hear the direction
is , and I want to make sure that we can take care of you . I don' t think
it' s in your best interest if we extend the current permit because I know
that your needs are going to be different than what we have given you
' permission to do and I know that in the future your needs are out of sync
with that land use and you won ' t be able to do what you want to do . I
think we need an area where traffic can come. Residential . Where
' community members can drop off the recycleables . I think we need a safe
area . I think we' re going to have a lot more traffic on TH 101 based on
the large amount of folks moving into the area and for a variety of
reasons . I really think it' s appropriate right now that we not extend
this. That we see that there could be another request made for a future,
there should be another request made at minimum where we can take a look
at what your plans are. I think we should be forced to say, we like where
' you' re going for the next 20 years and not say, we see what you are today.
That' s not what you want from us and that ' s not what you want from the
City. That would be a risky business venture. I would never do that if I
' were you. Anyway, those are my comments .
Erhart: I move to recommend denial of the extension of the conditional
use permit for Admiral Waste Management ' s contractor ' s yard .
' Ellson: I ' ll second that .
Erhart moved , Ellson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
denial of the Conditional Use Permit Extension Request for a contractor ' s
' yard for Admiral Waste Management . All voted in favor and the motion
carried .
1
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 14
Conrad : At the same time Steve, I guess based on what Tim was saying, we
have to do something in this area . One, recycling in this community,
we' ve got to do something but I think in terms of where can we locate a
recycling center . What zone makes economic sense? It' s easy to say, put
it in the industrial park. Boy, that' s a convenient way out but I think
we have to find out, if the economics are there. If we really believe the
economics are there. If Chanhassens wants a recycling center . If it fits
into some kind of recycling program. I think we have to do some legwork
on that and I don' t know if you would take that project yourself or get
some feedback from City Council . I guess they have to give you the
feedback because I think it is a little bit of a time consuming job . I
Hanson: I think they will .
Conrad : I have that feeling . '
Hanson : One other point , and Brian made an excellent point and that ' s,
when you read the section that defines what a junk yard is , it' s pretty
tough not to put anything associated with trash or recycleables , whatever ,
in that category that isn' t allowed anywhere. Specifically not mentioned
in any of the districts . '
Batzli : It' s almost enumerated as a nuisance . The nuisance section.
Conrad: Pat and Nancy, I thank you for coming in. We didn' t say all the
nice things that maybe you wanted or whatever . I guess I want to
encourage you to stay involved and maybe we can help out and do something .
I think what you' re seeing is we' re just not sure that where you want to
go is in sync with that particular spot.
Patrick Blood : We fully understand . I guess all we can say right now is , II
we' re still into this business and if we can be a help to Chanhassen, we
are licensed here and this is our business so anyway we can help, we'd be
more than happy to.
PUBLIC HEARING:
PRELIMINARY PLAT TO REPLAT LOTS 1, 2 , 3 AND 4, BLOCK 2, PARK ONE THIRD
ADDITION INTO ONE LOT ON PROPERTY ZONED IOP, LOCATED NORTH OF WEST 77TH
STREET AND EAST OF QUATTRO DRIVE, VER-SA-TIL ASSOCIATES , D.J. BOGEMA,
APPLICANT. '
Steve Hanson presented the staff report on this item.
Chairman Conrad called the public hearing to order .
Batzli moved , Ellson seconded to close the public hearing . All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. ,
Headla : I ' ve got one comment . It seems inappropriate use of staff ' s time
and energy for you to have to prepare this presentation. In the future
could you guide us someway so you wouldn ' t have to prepare this and come
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 15
back and use your energy to better use?
Hanson : Some cities , to handle this type of a thing , would set up what
might be called an adminstrative plat or a minor plat or whatever . It
would be handled more or less as a consent item. In the case of this
where it ' s fairly straight forward and it wouldn ' t make any sense not to
approve it once you approved the site plan because they couldn' t build the
building now.
Headla : We ' re going through stuff where you' re just using your energy
11 where it could be probably better used. In the future if you could guide
us on something like that.
Hanson : We would have had this coming with the site plan previously but
there was a delay in getting the plat document available when the site
plan was because it was something we turned up when we were reviewing that
so it threw us off two weeks .
' Conrad : David , it is a public hearing which we have to have. Have the
floor for a public hearing and we need the staff to make this up.
Headla : I just had a question, is there some way to avoid that? This
particular type of set up.
Conrad : I don' t know if we could figure out the rules .
Emmings: I think we want to try and have this folded into the site plan
so we do it all at once and that would pretty much take care of your
objection I think.
Ellson moved , Emmings seconded that the Planning Commission recommend
approval of Preliminary Plat Case #89-1 based on the plans stamped
"Received January 11, 1989" subject to the following conditions :
1. Final approval of the site plan for Ver-Sa-Til by City Council .
All voted in favor and the motion carried .
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Headla moved, Ellson seconded to note the summar of
Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated January 18 , 1989 as
presented. All voted in favor except Batzli who abstained and the motion
carried .
I
OPEN DISCUSSION: CONTRACTORS YARDS .
Hanson : I had hoped that we could just have a general discussion of it.
I wanted to give you somewhat of a comparison between the contractors
' yard , the conditions that apply to it as it is now versus what Mark has
included in his recommendation and that staff report and I believe that
that' s on the , it might be the third page of his . I don' t have the first
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 16 I
page. The part I 'm looking at is actually the fourth page. On item, it' s
numbered 2 and the differences between what he has there and what' s
presently in the Code . First of all , the minimum lot size has changed
from 5 acres as it is presently and increased up to a 10 acre minimum lot
size for a contractors yard . (b) , that ' s what is in the ordinance now.
(c) is what' s in the ordinance at this time. (d) is a new section
limiting the total square footage for the storage buildings. Presently
there' s no limitation on that. Then (e) is a change and the first
sentence there is new. That outdoor storage areas shall be limited to 500
square feet in total area. Under the present ordinance, there' s no
limitation on that outdoor storage area . Then, hours of operation are the
same. Light sources is the same. Outdoor speaker systems are the same.
The last section is a new section that all vehicles and equipment relating
to the contracting shall be stored within the building or within a
screened area so that it' s clear that those have to be non-visible from
other areas . Then there' s one section under the present conditions that
has been deleted under this proposal and that ' s the requirement on the one
mile separation between contracting yards . That' s not included in the
proposal that Mark had prepared . There' s a graphic up here that I 'd just
like to point out a few things on this because we talk about this
agricultural area . The A-2 area is really everything south generally of
that line so it' s this area in here. The green areas are essentially open
space areas . Areas committed to , a golf course down here and the
Arboretum. The area shown in the yellow are for the most part, subdivided
areas with 2 1/2 acre lots or more in some parts and also some odd parcels
that are less than 10 acres . . . .couple areas that would not be available
for . . . The red areas on here are existing . . . There is the one mile
restriction left in. In looking , this is approximately a mile. You' re '
looking at some slivers in here that would not be covered by one mile
radius . . . so if that one mile limitation is left on there, I think there
are only a half dozen parcels that would be available . . . The area that ' s
shown in orange on there are nurseries. Again, there' s been some
discussion on whether a nursery is a contractor ' s yard . . . The couple
other areas that are noted on here that have conditional use permits . . .
Hidden Valley extraction plant down here . An electrical substation here
and driving range here. We also have a couple contractors yards up in
here that are not in the A-2 district . They were approved prior to that
limit so they were grandfathered in. . . My reason for going over that is
simply just to provide some background and a jumping off place if you will II
on what the Planning Commission is looking at. One of the things too, I
think we had talked about briefly when Tim had asked about where the
contracting yards were and where it was sitting. The old Council had
looked at this and looked at the recommendation from the Planning
Commission and Mark' s report and essentially it was a 4 to 5 decision at
that point in time. There was no formal recommendation but saying , yes ,
the Planning Commission should proceed with that . There was some
discussion whether they should wait for the new Council to take their
position and look at that . When I went back to the Minutes , they
basically said no, let ' s take it back to the Planning Commission .
Probably should have brought that back earlier than now but I wanted to
get it back before you and see what direction you wanted to take as far as
looking at some type of an amendment and the time frame you want to look
at as far as setting up public hearings .
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 17
' Conrad : Does anybody, with taking a look at Mark ' s recommendations ,
should we be pursuing this right now? Contractors yards aggressively?
Batzli : A zoning change?
Conrad: Yes .
' Emmings : I don ' t know. Wouldn ' t the thing to do be just to schedule a
public hearing? We don' t have to stake out a position on this until , I
don' t think we want to until after the public hearing .
' Conrad : I don' t know if it' s, to have a position. I think it' s our role
to float this in front of the public . I guess the only, see if anybody
' cares . The only ones that are going to show up are the contractors but I
think it' s our goal to do that.
Batzli : There might be a couple people next to some contractors .
Conrad : Possibly, yes .
'
Emmings : I think we should pursue it . I think it' s one of the things
we' ve been wanting to get at.
Conrad : Basically when I went through the Minutes of City Council , other
than Hamilton, everybody else felt comfortable going ahead with it.
Basically going to a less intensive use of some sort. I don' t know if
I read a consensus to get rid of it but certainly a less intense use I
sure heard . I think what I read here , in Mark ' s is certainly getting us
to a less intense use. The question is, do we send it back to City
Council or do we go ahead with it? My reading, we don ' t know where the
' new Council is. On the other hand, we certainly can go ahead on our own.
It' s a question of whether we bounce it back up to them for another shot
at it, see if the new Council ' s interested or if we just go ahead
ourselves .
Headla : I 'd like to see what the new Council has to say. Send up a trial
balloon and see how they respond.
iConrad : Basically what you say Dave is , let ' s take Mark' s comments here
and pass it up for an informational item as soon as we can schedule it and
1 see if the Council has any comments or a different set of direction but
noting the fact that we want to schedule a public hearing and are
interested in any comments they may have.
'
Emmings: We ' re playing a lot of tennis with this thing. Couldn' t we just
say that we' d like to have a public hearing set up on this unless the
Council disagrees or unless the Council feels like we shouldn' t proceed?
' That way it doesn ' t have to come back. They can just go ahead and set it
up.
Erhart : The other thing is , that after the public hearing , it still goes
to Council anyway.
.i
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 18
Conrad : But it ' s always nice to incorporate new thoughts in before . '
Emmings: With 3 new members, I think it would be good. Give them a veto
on it . Just say, let ' s go ahead . Let' s set up a public hearing unless
they think we shouldn' t.
Hanson : Are you thinking that we would go ahead and incorporate Mark' s
recommendation?
Conrad : That ' s my next. Yes .
Headla : I 'd like to throw out something for discussion to see what you
think about making an addition to that. It' s a very difficult thing to
measure but we don' t talk about noise at all but when somebody comes here
to talk about contractors yards , noise, I think it' s been brought up every
single time. It was brought up again tonight . Remember the Lyman Lumber?
One of the big objections was the noise. Lyman was very responsive to
that but I 'd like to see us , whether we need guidance on how in the world
you can even word it to make it meaningful because I really think you
ought to talk about some type of noise control . The contractors yard near
me, I can ' t complain about, that ' s get noisy once in a while during the '
day. That part isn' t bad but I think at times it can be excessive in some
of these places and we should have some way of controlling it.
Emmings: Steve, do you ever deal with contractors yards a great deal in
your background?
Hanson : No , because we didn ' t allow them in the agricultrual areas , in
all honesty. We looked at them as an industrial use. Have a different
license for them.
Conrad : Dave, I buy your idea on noise but I don' t know how you write '
something .
Headla : I bet 5-10 years ago , we would have responded the same way when
you say, what do you do for sight? How can you measure and somebody says ,
well , let ' s put up a big fence. Those were new words at one time. I
think maybe we should have new words for the sound nuisance. '
Emmings : I think they' re restricting the hours of operation. That ' s what
that was getting at.
Headla : It can be a big benefit . I think that' s one of the primary
reasons that was put in there in the old ordinance.
Batzli : I think with larger sites , a 10 acre site , you' re going to have
less noise as well unless they take up the whole site. The point is , that
here it' s a much less intensive use . They don' t have, 500 square feet of
outdoor storage is nothing .
Hanson : One thing I hadn ' t mentioned there . Item 1 on that page with
those changes , is a modification of the definition to a contractors yard .
What it clearly does is it makes that contractors yard an accessory use to
1
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 19
the individual living on the property. That ' s a major deviation from
where we are now.
tHeadla : That in itself can help quite a bit .
Conrad: Any other recommendations in terms of what' s in front of us here?
' Batzli : If we change the definition of contractors yard , do we currently
allow them in the IOP? So you really can' t change the definition of
contractors yard up at the front of this section.
' Hanson: Good point .
' Batzli : We ' re going to have to call it something else .
Ellson: There' syouur junk yard. There' s the definition of junk yard
maybe .
Batzli. : I think there has to be an easier way unless we just , I don ' t
know if we can do it in the definition section to define it one way for
one district and another way for another . That would be easier than
trying to amend a bunch of different sections .
' Emmings : We can face that after we decide what we' re going to do because
I guess what we' re looking at, if we' re going to make it less intense,
we' re either going to say there aren ' t going to be any in which case we
can just leave it alone. Leave the definition alone because it will still
' fit in the IOP. If we take that route , we don ' t have that problem. It ' s
only if we take the second choice of saying it' s going to be an accessory
use . Then we've got the problem. We can figure something out then
' I suppose.
Hanson : One place where we might try to define that is , presently you
' have standards for a contractor ' s yard in the agricultural and residential
districts . You have a group of those districts and then under the
industrial it' s also a conditional use. They are separate criteria in
that part of the conditional use regulations so it could be defined
' differently to cover it in that area .
Batzli : That would be a good way to handle it .
Erhart: Ladd, are you looking for comments as to how we should, what ' s
the next step?
' Conrad : Additions to what Mark, do you see anything that we want to
change as we pass this up to City Council for a veto or as we set Steve
forward to set up a public hearing . Do you see any other changes in this?
tErhart: Do you normally go to a public hearing with just general
comments? Do you go out with a specific plan of this is what we want to
pass? I guess we assumed that we were going out with specifics on a
public hearing .
I
I
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 20
Hanson: We need to have a draft, if you will . '
Erhart : Okay. Then it seems to me that we have to decide either between
the plan that Mark is recommending , which is the elimination of
contractors yards in the A-2 district or the alternative which is we feel
that we have to allow them someplace even though nobody else does. Then
we have to pick that one .
Ellson : I thought we already decided . That ' s why we passed it up to City
Council . I thought we had this discussion. We all pretty much said no in
the A-2. '
Erhart : That we were going to eliminate them?
Ellson: Right. And then we went up there and they got some comments and
now it ' s back here.
Erhart : So then we' re not really considering the alternative?
Emmings: But don' t we want to have, let people comment on both of the
things that Mark has laid out somehow? Maybe we ought to have a public
hearing on. . .
Ellson : We' re kind of washy washy then .
Erhart: Don ' t get me wrong . I 'm just for eliminating and my question, I
was just wondering where we were going .
Emmings : We can have a public hearing on a proposal to eliminate them in
the A-2 or have a public hearing on a proposal to deintensify their use or
eliminate them. I guess I don' t know if we have to have . . .
Conrad : We have to have something to react to .
Emmings: But if we say, we want to have public comments on a proposal to
eliminate them in the A-2, then how will people see this alternative plan
of Mark' s so they could comment on it?
Conrad : They won' t.
Emmings: But don' t we want to hear what they' ve got to say about that?
Conrad: Unless we do it through a staff presentation. Unless we float
the elimination up there by staff for the public that shows up. They can
comment on the alternative that we looked at. '
Hanson : The other thing you could do is have , rather than a formal public
hearing, to talk about the two different options but to still try to
generate some interest is to have a workshop type or just have it on the
agenda as a discussion item that we would advertise. Then get some public
input and then do a formal public hearing on one of the alternatives .
We've got to publish the amendment to the ordinance for the public
hearing . I 'd rather not publish two because I think it ' s going to be. . .
I
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 21
Ellson : I would agree to do something like that if we were split but we
were pretty much all together. Why would we want to present it any other
' way? We were all for eliminating them. Why would we even bring it up?
Not that we' re trying to outsell ourselves but we already feel strongly
this way, and granted they can come forward and say no , I like my
' neighbor . He has a neat contractors yard or what have you and maybe that
will open our minds later to the other alternative but right now, we ' re
all voting this way and we sent it forward and now you look like you' re
maybe changing your mind .
' Erhart : That is a point . If we did get a lot of negative response at a
public hearing to eliminate them, then you could always go back and come
' back with the alternative.
Emmings : On the other hand , just looking at it from the other side,
' you' re saying, we 've got two proposals in front of us . We' ll only show
the public this one so they can comment on it and we' ll keep the other one
behind our back. I don' t know, the whole idea of the public hearing it
seems to me is to get . . .
Ellson : But this one is the most drastic . So if we get a lot of
negative, then we can pull out the happy medium.
Batzli : I think we should have Ladd write a lengthy letter to the editor
explaining the differences between the two plans .
' Conrad : I ' ll do that tonight .
Batzli : No , but I agree . I think we kind of made the decision that we
don' t like them in somewhat of a vaccum in that we haven' t been reported
in the local paper recently and I don ' t think the public comes in and
reads our Minutes. I would prefer to present both. If we have an option
' and it ' s going to slow it down by a week or two, I 'd rather do that. If
the public' s interested , they can come in.
Headla: But how do we get to the public to get them in?
Batzli : But they have the option .
Emmings : That ' s right . All you can do is provide the opportunity. You
can' t make people come in and comment because we' ve held a lot of public
hearings where all we had were crickets .
Headla: But if you can give them the option , give them the option. You
can tell them, just come here and read the Minutes or you can give them a
plan. I think you've got to be more up front with them and say, hey we
want to talk about contractors yards.
Emmings : I guess the only question is how aware you want to make them of
the two options that we looked at .
I
II
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 22
II
Headla : I think Steve should come in at the next meeting with a plan.
II
What we should publish at this public meeting .
Conrad : When we passed this up, we asked City Council for their comments. II
I didn' t read their comments to say get rid of it altogether . That' s not
what they said. So what you' re doing is , we passed it up to you folks but
we' re going to go off and get rid of them altogether. Dave, you didn' t II say that . You like the small ma and pa , as I recall .
Headla: Yes , definitely.
Conrad : So the question is , do we want to , it' s sort of go back and study II
it some more Planning Commission and here we' re saying, we thought about
it again and we' re going to go out and have a public hearing eliminating '
them. Steve, you' re saying , let' s get more comments .
Batzli : I don ' t even know if he ' s saying that. He ' s saying let ' s see if
there are any comments. I don' t think there will be any but I 'd like to
I
see somebody have the opportunity.
Conrad : I don ' t think we ' re in sync with what the City Council is saying . II
Or at least the past City Council .
Batzli : By saying that?
II
Conrad : Based on our attitude right now, I don ' t think we' re in sync with
what they' re thinking .
Emmings : What if we advertise a public hearing as a public hearing on the II
adoption of an ordinance amendment to eliminate or restrict, pose it in
the alternative, contractors yards in Chanhassen. Just hold that public
I
hearing and if you want to, publish a proposed amendment to eliminate and
a ' proposed amendment to restrict so they can read all that and comment on
all of it. Can we do it that way? In the alternative? Because it seems II to me that that would , if anybody' s going to comment, that ' s going to fire
more people' s imagination than just something real short that says we want
to eliminate them.
Headla : I like your point Steve but I think we should have a brief
definition of contractors yard because I don' t know what you would
consider a contractors yard and my wife ' s definition might be quite a bit II different .
Conrad : If we want to get people' s input , I think we' ve got to get Steve
to float the story over to the Villager . That' s the way to get any kind
II
of background rather than through a public notice.
Hanson: I think if you' re wanting to create people' s interest, publish
II
that you' re eliminating contractors yards .
Emmings: That would grab the attention of the contractors yards folks but II
if I 'm a neighbor to one , I may see it as an opportunity to get it done
but I also may think, it looks like it' s done. I guess it depends on, do
r
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 23
we hold a public hearing because we' re obligated to or because we want to
get some comments? I think the more you put out there, the better chance
you' ve got of getting a better input if they see that the thing is up in
' the air . I don' t think many people will show up other than people who
have them.
Conrad : Just the contractors and a few people that might get notified .
That receive the notification that live close by.
Erhart : I think you' re going to get frustrated trying to get a lot of
comment on it. I suggest we simply look at it from a pure planning point
of view which is the way Mark has looked at it and I think your history
has looked at it. Our stated goal is to eliminate intrusive uses and I
think it' s clear that this is an intrusive use in the agricultural and
residential area. I 'm not against getting public opinion but I think in
this case , since _it ' s only directed at such, the real focused issue is
only going to be on those contractors , it' s the only people you' re going
to get up here . I 'm not too sure we' re going to accomplish what we ' re
trying to accomplish. I 'd be more inclined, if you' re uncomfortable Ladd
that we' re not in line with the current Council that is opposed to going
1 out with a vague thing , that we go back to Coucil and get their opinion .
I just don ' t think we' re going to get that much out of the public hearing
process .
Conrad : I agree . I think we' re going to get nothing .
Erhart: If you ' re uncomfortable, let ' s go back to the new Council .
Conrad : What I 'm saying is , we sent it up the first time to get their
input. We got their input that said, reduce the contractor ' s yards but
they didn ' t say eliminte them. When I say reduce , rei.ntensify contractors
yards is what I read their minutes to say except for Tom Hamilton. Yet
what Mark says , to get rid of them altogether and I guess with a new
' Council I guess I 'm just more interested in feeding them back to them
right now. Getting their comments and then take to the public either one
or the other options. I think the public is , in this case, I don' t think
we' re going to get a lot .
Emmings : You can pretty well anticipate that . Right? It would be
surprising to hear anything new.
Conrad : The contractors will be irritated and they' ll be here . The
public thinks it' s probably a benfi.t so they don ' t have anything to lose
and everything to gain and they probably won ' t show up. If we think it' s
a deal that they should show up, then I think we should make an effort to
floating the story in the Villager . What do you want to do?
Hanson: In light of the decision made on the earlier extension of the
contractors yard in the BF district , we haven ' t talked about that . I 'm
not sure if the Planning Commission would want to include the BF district
also or do we want to just talk about the A-2 district? I heard a lot of
what some of you were saying is that is probably not an appropriate use in
that location . That causes me to say, well maybe we ought to be, I don' t
r
1
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 24
want to say let' s open Pandora ' s box but on the other hand , I 'm also a
little leary about do a little amendment here and do a little amendment
in a couple more months for something else . I tend to fall back and say,
I 'd like to look at it more comprehensively if we can without saying ,
let ' s spend 6 or 8 months rehasing a bunch of things . I guess the
contracting yard in the BF district is one thing some consideration ought
to be given to . The other thing that we' ve talked about on previous
applications is definition between the nursery and the contracting yard .
As far as the type of use that occurs on there. That ' s caused some
confusion for some of those people as well as staff in advising someone
when they come in on a nursery type application . It' s kind of splitting I
hairs in some respects .
Conrad : Don, what do you want us to do? Have you talked this issue with
the new members at all? No chance. Okay.
Ellson : Maybe they should look at it . You' re probably right . It could
be a whole different point of view. I 'd hate to go to the public with our I
recommendation and then have it be 100% different than theirs . Ping pong
it back up there again, right Steve. And I think you made a good comment .
Take a look at everything . Look at that highway and the works instead of
just . . . -
Erhart : I 'd agree . If we' re going to get more comment from Council , we
ought to include BF.
Batzli : Then we might as well look and see if that thing should be zoned
BF to start with then. Let' s start with A. 1
Erhart : That proposal has already been made in a separate series of
documents . '
Batzli : I know it has but nothing ' s happened has it?
Conrad: We don' t have a good alternative for that property. 1
Batzli : We just don' t want to change it to agricultural again .
Conrad: Agricultural on TH 212 is kind of foolish. Fringe business means II
we had nothing else to call it . It was good for nothing and therefore we
wanted to accommodate what was there and not intensify anything but we've
been intensifying stuff .
Erhart: You can accommodate what ' s there.
Conrad : We' ve gone way contrary to what originally the fringe business
was and that was just to keep it conforming. Take it out of the non-
conforming category so we had some kind of control on it but since then ,
we' ve been developing the area and some of it made sense.
Erhart : Whatever we perceived the evils of non-conformance is , I just
don' t think outweighs what we got ourselves into and that is that it' s
growing .
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 25
Batzli : Well , staff told us to do it that way.
' Emmings: Can we have maybe a different zone where there are no permitted
uses . There are no standards. There are no conditional uses . It' s
called the Twilight Zone and just put things like that in there and hope
' they go away.
Erhart : If we go back to the Council , let ' s try to keep the thing moving
so we get it back and get something to a public hearing because I think we
' all see where we' re going and the more we wait, the more we' re going to
invite another contractor yard application and then we' re going to have a
problem.
Conrad : I guess what I 'd like to do is , Steve, have you give City Council
a brief presentation and we' re sticking you into something that you don ' t
have a whole lot of background in but I think we should introduce him to
' the subject. We should say, the Planning Commission at this point in
time, based on the consultant ' s opinion, is feeling that they should be
eliminated altogether and we' re looking for their feedback again because
1 of the new City Council members . At this point in time, I don ' t know what
we' re floating a motion or anything other than having you give them a
presentation to give the new Councilmembers some background on this
' subject but also to say, we' re still , there ' s a leaning down here to
eliminate them altogether . Probably on a 5 to 2 vote. I 'm just guessing
that not everybody' s in favor of the eliminating them. Does that make
sense? Can we do it that way?
Ellson: Yes , let' s do it that way.
rOPEN DISCUSSION: HIGHWAY 101 MEDIANS .
Fred Hoi.si.ngton: Tim has really raised a very good question because we've
dealt with all of these roads. The major roads of the downtown streets
and so forth. As one can well see, there have been a number of medians
proposed throughout a good share of the redevelopment area of the City of
Chanhassen . But unfortunately, there are some very significant limiting
factors. Did they get a copy of the memo by any chance Steve? Okay.
What' s proposed right now is something , well that ' s really not the correct
' one but at least it shows the median situation in regards to Market Blvd . .
The point Tim is raising , it has to do primarily with this stretch of TH
101 and future TH 101 on the south side. We have a number of things
working against us . When the alignment of Market Blvd . was established
north of TH 5, what happened was we took a limited or minimum right-of-way
through here so we only have about 80 feet I think it is in that location.
Now that that has been pretty much established, the question is , how do we
tie into it and we' re very limited as to how we can tie into it. We' re
committed to have to have a 6 foot wide median at the nose at TH 5 so that
the two intersections north and south can tie in and be directly across
' from one another. What that tells us is , that if we want to widened the
median further , and really that' s kind of Tim' s question is can we widened
it more and landscape it and so forth, then we would have to do that south
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Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 26
1
of the intersection and we have some real problems there because of the
curvature that exists from, as soon as you take away from the intersection
and then you go south and then you ' ll curve again. In the future , when
you get back on either the temporary or the future permanent alignment of
TH 101 . Those are 5 degree curves . What that requires is that you have
no fixed objects within a median within 65 feet of the travel surface of
the roadway which means that if you were to provide a median of 65 feet . . .
Headla: I 'm not sure what you said there.
Fred Hoisington : Let me go back and hit that a little bit again. As you
leave the intersection of TH 5, you pick up these curves which are 5
degree curves which are rather significant . As we understand what BRW is
trying to do is to keep those from having to have super elevations. Super
elevation meaning tilt of the road . Keep people on the road as they
traverse those curves. But what it does , because the curves are there, it
throws you into , potentially into the center or the median and MnDot for
example, has very strict standards about what you can have within those
areas . For example, on TH 5, just looking at , can we get landscaping in
there? Can we get mounds in there? Can we get a guardrail or something
that will protect the people from coming back and forth across the lanes?
And what they kept telling us was , no. Along the edges you also have to
keep a certain slopes . I believe they' re 6 : 1 slopes if they' re hill
slopes. 4 : 1 if they' re cut slopes and you can have no fixed objects
within those areas so we have a serious limiting factor in terms of being
able to put trees in no matter here because of the curvature. Because of
the speed . It' s design for 50 mph . Everything south of here will in
fact, once it' s realigned and so forth, be essentially whatever a State
Highway is on there and it would be designed for probably 60 mph but when
you' re up in this end, while it might be signed for that , more than likely
it will be 50 to 55 mph so there are certain things you simply can' t do
within those areas. Now what could be done, I suppose if we kept those
the same, we could somehow broaden them on the east side , the right-of-way
out in order to get a sufficient median to have the clearances that would
be necessary but we have a freeway section there is what it amounts to.
Until we head down far enough south that we do not have that anymore and
then we would transition back into a regular , narrower roadway as such.
Or the other thing you can do is take these 20 foot sections, and this is
not a good representation because there are a couple of roads , and you can
do some landscaping of a shurbery type in there as long as you don' t
impair views at the intersection and those kinds of things. That' s
something that' s still , I would think, open because we' re only in the
feasibility study phase . When we' re beyond the feasibility study phase
and into the design phase and there is landscaping that' s part of Lake
Drive East and TH 101 project . It' s only a matter of hooking it up with
those plant materials. If the Planning Commission feels very strongly
about either widening the right-of-way another 45 plus feet I believe in
order to accommodate that, or to add shurbery like landscaping in those
medians , we can take that back and get consideration to that .
Erhart: The reason I asked Steve to have this conversation was that, at
one time in the last discussion that we had on the transportation section
of the Comp Plan revision, we had talked about providing essentially a
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Planning Commission Meeting
February 1 , 1989 - Page 27
median on TH 101 south of TH 5, between TH 5 and the freeway entrance, the
planned freeway entrance because that would be the entrance to the
downtown from people coming form the City to the Dinner Theater or down to
the hotel and all the retail shopping and so forth that we' re going to
have in the downtown area . Since we felt that , it appeared that there
were some projects underway that Barb was working on to realign that whole
' section , which I think is what , about 2 miles maybe?
Fred Hoisington: I think a mile and a half .
Erhart : A mile and a half, that if we had the opportunity to put it on
our Comp Plan to get the easement width to put in a median with some trees
on it . I also want to make sure that I 'm clear that in the downtown area
where the purpose of the street is for access to business , I 'm generally
opposed to medians . I want to make sure that my interest in this is not
to encourage more medians in the downtown area but I think in this area
where it' s, essentially it ' s a route into town with limited access because
' it' s a State Highway, with the proper planning and get trees in the
median , it would be a really nice feature to the town . Right now it' s a
45 mph road? The present TH 101 between downtown and the south?
' Fred Hoisington : I think it ' s 45. . .
' Erhart: I guess it' s signed at 40 or something. I guess I 'm a little
surprised that you ' re trying to achieve a 55 mph zone through which is
really a residential area. I 'm not too sure , do we really want that?
' Fred Hoisington: There are a number of things that are going to happen .
First of all , there' s some chance that if TH 101 isn' t turned back to the
County, which the State is hoping will happen , then it will be a State
Highway probably at some point in time down to TH 212. If on the other
hand , it is turned back and it' s either the County or the City that
happens to be the recepient of it, we' re all going to have more control
' over what happens there in terms of speed and so forth . I don ' t want to
say that it' s going to be designed to make sure that it' s the safest
roadway and designed more to highway standards to make sure that it will
work depending on who' s it is when the time comes . We don' t think MnDot
' would approve anything less than what you see here in terms of curvature
radius and so forth as long as there' s any prospect of it being a state
highway.
Erhart : You' re saying we can ' t limit the speed at this time if say we
wanted to design it at 40 mph?
Fred Hoisington: No . What BRW is doing is designing this to the least
lowest possible standard they can. The lowest possible speed that they
feel they can get away with. The reason we have primarily 50-55 posted
' road is because practically that ' s how fast people will be going . It' s
actually being designed for higher speed than that . . .
Erhart : What speed limit would allow you to put . . . ?
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 28
Fred Hoisington: When you have a 30 mph speed limit , then you have '
clearances. The only clearances you need to be concerned with fixed
objects in straight stretches of roadway are just enough for the distance
for snow storage temporarily. You don' t need hardly any clearances for 30
mph . 40, you begin to press it a little bit . Then at 50 , of course
you ' re into it. I 'm not sure just what it would come down to. It goes
from zero at 30, essentially zero at 30 to 65 at 50 and someplace
inbetween.
Erhart : The area that I 'm thinking about , there' s some awful nice
roadways in west Bloomington that have been put in in the last 10 years. I
If you go straight east on Pioneer Trail until you hit 18 , and then beyond
that there' s a two lane street with turning lanes and a median with pine
trees and evergreens going east . Then turning south and then there' s
another one that turns north that goes up to the shopping center and
stuff. I believe those are signed at 40 mph. It used to 182nd . I don' t
think they call it Pioneer Trail anymore. I 'd like to get the other
pepole ' s opinion but I ' d sure hate to miss the opportunity to make this
entrance right. The whole thing is going to be reconstructed over the
next 5 to 10 years .
Fred Hoisington: This section will be built now. We have some
latitude. . . Of course over the longer haul , we have an opportunity, if
it' s not going to be. . .we' ll listen to the recommendation of the Planning
Commission and go back and talk with the engineers and I guess the City
Council as well . But at least you can give us an impression on where you
want to go. I 'm the only one that' s spoke, I don' t want to be the lone
duck here because if . . .
Brown: My only concern with this is , I understand the motive here. It'd
be a nice venture to go out and put trees and create a nice aesthetic
point to this what is surrounded by the entrance to the City. My only
concern is, we' ve heard talk time and time again about how traffic is
inevitably going to increase on here and are we building another "white
elephant"? I don' t know. I hear Fred saying that from a design
standpoint , we should be designing this roadway at a 50 mph or 55 mph
design speed. Not only for safety, what we call a forgiving design if a
driver screws up, they have a potential to recover without causing serious
harm. But also to have a facility that' s going to enable us to continue
down the line in handling this projected volumes .
Emmings: I want to be sure I understand. Are we only talking about, is
Tim talking about only a median from TH 5 south on the portion that' s
going to be built now? That you indicated is going to be built now? Is
that what you' re talking about? '
Erhart : I 'm probably talking about south of that . Maybe even Lake Drive
East south. When you get into the area where you have retail businesses ,
then I 'm not . . .
Emmings : But where are you proposing this median end? It would go all
the way down to new TH 212?
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Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 29
Erhart : Let me say it this way. I think it starts at TH 212 and it goes
north and I 'm not too sure where it ends but it ends when you get into
downtown, wherever that is . I don ' t know.
' Emmings: So you' re thinking about continuing it north of TH 5?
' Erhart : Oh , no , no . Definitely not . When you get into the City retail
business district, then it' s done. Free access .
Emmings : My other question is, that portion that goes south of TH 5 is
being designed for speeds of like up to 60 mph you' re talking about Fred?
But there ' s a practical matter , the traffic on the north side , on the
continuation of that road, that will all be a 30 up there is that right?
Fred Hoisington : North of TH 5?
Emmings: Yes. On Market.
Fred Hoisington : Yes .
Emmings : So that people that are going to continue on TH 101 have to turn
right or people that are , most of the traffic that' s in that area isn' t
going to be moving at 50 or 55 because they' re either going to be coming
1 off a turn or they' re coming up to a stop light probably right?
Fred Hoisington : Yes .
' Emmings : Couldn' t that section, at least that section in there be signed
lower because of that? Couldn' t that be signed down to 30?
' Fred Hoisington : You' re primarily talking about the stretch between Lake
Drive and . . .
Emmings : No , let ' s talk about that whole section that ' s indicated as
being wider there. Into the curves where you start. Say you' re coming
north and you come around to that curve, what if that was signed for 30?
' Fred Hoisington: I think the day will come when that could happen. When
it comes under either the City' s or the County' s jurisdiction , I think
that could happen. I think as long as MnDot has this road, the
' possibility that they would have it , it' s being designed to MnDot ' s
standards. MnDot would not accept . . .would not accept a design that would
be only 30 mph . I think the day might come when we can sign it for that .
' Emmings: Because as a practical matter , by the time someone hits Lake
Drive East , you sure as hell don' t want them going 50. There' s nothing
they can do that will allow them to do 50. This is kind of new to me. I
know that we have talked about TH 101 being an entrance to the City off TH
212 but I also recall talk that they thought that a lot of the traffic
that was coming west from the metropolitan area to Chanhassen would be
coming on TH 5. I don' t know to what extent we know or have tried to
figure out what the volumes of traffic will be on say the stretch of TH
101 between TH 212 and TH 5.
I
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Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 30
Fred Hoisington: We know about what those will be. . .down to TH 5. '
Emmings : Are they going to be big numbers or is that going to be a lot of
traffic?
Fred Hoisington : On the south , if this is TH 101 and on the south leg,
we' re probably going to be in the neighborhood of 12, 000 to 15, 000
vehicles a day on that stretch of TH 101.
Emmings : When you say that stretch of TH 101, you ' re talking about the
stretch between new TH 212. . . ?
Fred Hoisington: It will progressively reduce from TH 5 south. The point
nearest TH 5 will be in that 12, 000 to 15, 000 range. North of TH 5, TH
101 will carry between 15, 000 and 20, 000 vehicles a day.
Emmings: How about coming west on TH 5? '
Fred Hoisington : The sheer volume on TH 5?
Emmings: Coming west on TH 5?
Fred Hoisington: In the 2005 , I bet I don ' t have those numbers here but
they are large numbers.
Emmings : Bigger?
Fred Hoisington : Bigger than what I 'm talking about . Those numbers are ,
it seems to me they were 30, 000 to 35, 000. 00. Somewhere in that
neighborhood .
Emmings: Then the question becomes , if I knew that this was going to be
the major traveled route into Chanhassen, I 'd be more interested in Tim' s
plan but it sounds to me like, if you wanted to , and like Tim says , now
certainly is a heck of an opportunity but I don't know. It sounds like
still most traffic is going to be coming west on TH 5.
Conrad: The costs to improve that with these embellishments , my ,
understanding in the past because I think I brought this up a while back,
talking about a divided highway coming into the highway, my impression was '
that any additional cost would be City funded . Is that right?
Fred Hoisington: Yes. Of course a lot of what is being done here is City
funded either through assessments or tax increment or whatever . At least II for the first stretch and then if the urgency is there that MnDot needs to
pick this project up and complete it at some point in time down to TH 212,
then when they know it' s their project, then they will carry a good share
of the cost . However , additional right-of-way that might be associated
with the median and so forth, that would be landscaping . They' ll put
medians in , they' re putting them into TH 5 now, but those aren ' t going to
be landscaped ones either . I suspect would be both cost to the City for
right-of-way, for improvements and for maintenance. We do not think
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Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 31
MnDot, MnDot will not maintain trees in that median. That ' s the City' s
responsibility.
Headla : Fred , to help me better understand traffic flow, what road today
carries 12, 000 to 15, 000 cars a day?
' Fred Hoisington : I 'm trying to think David .
Erhart: Currently, I think it says TH 212 carries 20, 000.
Fred Hoisington: I think that ' s about right . I 'm trying to think of what
CR 4 in Eden Prairie carries today. We did a project on that a couple
years ago and it seems to me that was carrying about 12, 000 to 18 ,000.
' Somewhere in that range. County Road 4 north of TH 5.
Headla : That gets pretty crowded at times .
Fred Hoisington: That gets very crowded at time. That ' s a significant
volume of traffic .
' Headla : The other question I had is , I think earlier you said there ' s
another option besides trees in the median. If we take another 45 feet to
the east, what option is that again?
' Fred Hoisington: I think I blew it because I 'm not sure, I believe the
clear zone has to be 65 feet all by itself so we would have to have enough
median essentially for these curves now to accommodate trees and I believe
we 'd have to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 foot median in
order to be able to have some mixed trees there . Which means we'd have to
acquire additional right-of-way through an easement to accommodate that at
50-55 mph .
Headla : To me that ' s cast in concrete . We' re going to have to live with
that so to me I don' t even want to talk about that. That' s what we' ve got
to do . Now how do we live with that type of problem? But you think we
need a 135 foot right-of-way?
' Fred Hoisington : The clear zone has to be 65. I 'm not sure but what you
can offset, for example the trees there, depending on which way the curve
is going . For example if you' re coming into the curve so that you can go
' across and into the median, then you have to have a 65 foot clear zone.
On the other side, I don ' t believe you have to have the same clear zones
David but I 'm not real sure. I 'm not the traffic engineer in that case .
We could look at that a little bit closer if you wanted us to but it would
take a substantial median in order to be able to accommodate trees now.
Not shrubs. Things that would stop a car , slow it down, would not be a
problem. A 4 inch or larger caliper tree would be of course omitted .
' Conrad : Tim, do you see anything else besides trees in the median? Is
there something else that you envision there besides that? It ' s starting
to look not real practical .
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Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 32
II
Erhart : I just don ' t believe you' ll ever see 55 mph signs there Ladd . 1
Maybe let' s just put some concrete in there. I just can' t envision that
road at 55 mph . That ' s the one that I guess surprises me.
Headla: But isn' t that a given? 1
Conrad : But let ' s say if it was 30.
II
Erhart: Well , I 'm thinking 40-45.
Conrad : Well , let' s say if it was 30 and real slow. You would envision
II
trees in that entire red median area? Is that what you' re thinking?
Erhart : Let' s say between TH 212 and Lake Drive East .
II
Conrad: You really want a boulevard type?
Erhart : That ' s the vision I have. Like Bloomington has in a number of
I
their throughway boulevards . They' re really nice.
Conrad : Does that mean a dividied road basically? Are you hung on up II trees or is it the divided road?
Erhart : It could be grass . A few evergreens . Kind of landscaped . If II it' s a bad idea . . .
Conrad : No , no . I 'm with you . I felt a boulevard was the way to fly.
There' s going to be a lot of traffic here but I guess I don' t know what we II
can and can' t do but I 'm not hung up with doing it right at this
intersection where we have the curve. I 'm thinking, what do we have, if
not an economic drain and I don' t know what that means .
I
Erhart: What you' re getting to is, let ' s just make sure that on our Comp
Plan, at least south of this area , that we maintain a plan where if we do II have opportunities to get wider easements or if we start talking about
realignment , let' s pick a number Fred that allows us some flexibility in
the future to put in a grass median.
Fred Hoisington : Why don' t we also pose a question to the engineers II
regarding the future speeds of lesser amounts here and see if maybe that' s
not a future possibility. Something you might not do right now but you
II
could do when the time came when the speed was lowered.
Emmings : A median of the width you' re talking about , how would you even
get onto Market Blvd. or off of Market Blvd. onto this road? 1
Fred Hoisington : You would not be able to obviously do it right in this
spot. You have a transition out. 1
Emmings : I see .
Conrad : So who cares? You know it ' s going to cost an arm and a leg to do I
it.
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 33
Headla : That ' s what bothers me.
Conrad : You know we' re not talking about 25 cents to pull this baby off.
Emmings: We' re talking about a median of over 100 feet. That' s what it
' sounds like. It would look nice.
Erhart : I 'm not suggesting that we get ourselves in the position of a 100
foot median. Not at all .
1 Headla : Even if you make it that wide , that may help the trail situation
too. We may get some benefit from that.
Batzli : What trail are you talking about?
Headla: We might get some benefit from that.
Erhart : I think Fred has come up with some good issues .
Ellson: I thought that' s a good way to leave it. Just leave it as an
ultimate possibility.
Erhart : If the Planning Commission is still thinking the boulevard is a
good idea . . .
Ellson : It ' s on our wish list . Let' s put it that way.
Conrad: If we drop it, we' re going to drop it and I don' t think anybody' s
going to pick it up so the point is , do we want to pursue it aggressively
' or shall we, I think Fred researched it a little bit. The issue is, do we
put more money into a major entryway into Chan. It ' s not the main one but
18,000 or 15,000 cars is a big one and do we care about having anything
more than just a normal highway? That' s the issue . Are we comfortable
having a freeway just to dump people off on a standard looking highway and
are we willing to pay for it?
Batzli : I think that' s the biggest issue . I think in principal it' s fine
and it'd be nice to have an attractive gateway, showcase boulevard into
the City but if it ' s going to cost $100, 000. 00 a foot, who needs it?
Emmings: And it doesn ' t sound like most of the people are going to be
coming that way so they won' t get to see it anyway.
I Conrad : But 15,000 a day is a lot of folks. 15, 000 to 18 , 000 down on TH
169 , that ' s a lot of people .
' Emmings : But it' s going to be more than twice as many up on TH 5. If
you' re going to spend money to beautify it and make an attractive
entrance, it doesn ' t sound like this is really the entrance.
Conrad : This is one we have an opportunity on.
I
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Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 34
I
Ellson : Isn ' t this the one where people are going to be passing through. I
This isn' t the group that' s going to be coming in necessarily, that
traffic is going to be people going to work up north and things like that .
Welcome to Chanhassen everyday with gorgeous boulevards versus people from
out of town coming to the Dinner Theater . That ' s obviously going to be
the absolute main entrance I think.
Erhart : Actually Fred what you were talking about is the acquisition
I
costs of a 50 to 60. If it' s a 50 foot median, you' re talking additional
50 feet of additional right-of-way.
Headla: I think we ought to have some idea of the cost here. II
Conrad : What do you want? What are you asking for? The cost of what?
II
Emmings: We don' t usually get this practical .
IIEllson : We get to say, nice idea . Let somebody else decide on the money.
Headla: I keep thinking about north out of TH 5, CR 4, that' s a pretty
adequate road . Yes , they could dress it up a little but if we have to II acquire another 50 feet to put a median in there, I 'd say forget i.t. That
sounds like an awful lot of money and I 'd bet 98% of the people that drive
on that, do it day in and day out.
II
Ellson : That ' s what I was thinking . It ' s not like new visitors .
Headla : If you drive CR 4 in the morning like I do, school buses and the
II
same people time after time after time.
Conrad: Fred, what would you guess if you put a divided roadway in there I
all the way from new TH 212 up through TH 5? Let ' s say we put a median in
of 15 feet wide. Ballpark it.
Fred Hoisington : Are you talking about the additional cost? I
Conrad: Additional cost, yes .
Fred Hoisington: It would depend , it could vary all over the place . How II
much right-of-way is dedicated as opposed to purchased. Right now we' re
faced with purchase of right-of-way. Not dedication but we' re hoping that II
in subsequent phases the property owners will be in a positions where
they' ll need to plat and therefore will need to dedicate to provide
roadway. That's why we' re not taking anymore right now. Right-of-way is
a big part of that whole equation. The additional cost for the roadway
II
itself, Larry you' re really better at figures . . .
Ellson : There you go , pass the buck. I
Conrad: I knew you were here for a reason Larry.
Brown: Do you have a hat to pull the rabbit out? I don ' t know. I 've I
discussed this matter with Roger Knutson many times on land purchase and
II
II
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1 , 1989 - Page 35
his response to me was good luck in trying to pin down a number . It can
vary across the board so radically that you really can ' t even begin to
estimate .
' Conrad : Oh come on. $200, 000. 00?
Headla: Is the swing 10 million dollars?
Brown: There are so many factors , I wish I could even begin to estimate
but I 'd be pulling a number straight out of the air with no logic at all .
' Erhart : I calculated out a mile and a half with 30 foot median at
$20, 000. 00 an acre is approximately $110, 000. 00.
' Conrad : For purchase?
Erhart: For purchase. Trees are extra .
' Batzli : $2 . 00 a square foot .
Erhart: Yes , but land isn' t $2. 00 a square foot . . .
Conrad : On the Comprehensive Plan but probably hasn ' t been adopted yet ,
we did say to consider the option of making this a boulevard, as I recall .
Fred Hoisington: Did you establish a right-of-way by chance?
' Conrad: No. We haven' t adopted that part of the Comprehensive Plan.
Fred Hoisington : Would you want us to at least look at that right-of-way
width and to look at this other thing with the speed? If we have control ,
when we have control , what would we do?
Conrad: Yes, I think so .
Fred Hoisington: In sort of a broad general way. We could also talk in
terms of broad costs but not tonight.
' Conrad : Anything else tonight folks?
Batzli : What happened to our blending ordinance?
Hanson : Blending ordinance?
' Ellson: That was on Mark' s to do thing . Mark said yes , if only I could
do blending as good as this contractors yard thing .
Emmi.ngs : We ' re talking about blending subdivisions together so you don ' t
get a bunch of little lots next to a bunch of big lots .
Hanson: You' ll have real problems with that.
Erhart: Also, there is this proposal at that whole BF district.
11
Planning Commission Meeting
February 1, 1989 - Page 36
II
Hanson: I ' ve got that down here. This is a list that I ' ve got so far .
II
Emmings: Why don' t we hear what' s on your list .
Hanson : Update the zoning map . Contractors yards . Complete the I
Comp Plan update. Minor amendments to the MUSA line such as Carrico. By
the way, I did talk to Met Council and they said there' s no way they would II
consider anything .
Ellson: Surprise , surprise.
Erhart: From the developer? II
Hanson : From the developer but not the case from us . What they said is if
he wanted to amend it, they would only consider it if it came from the
City and there is some reliance on doing those minor amendments based on
the last amendment that they did do. Convenience store moratorium. We
haven ' t talked about that one yet . The wetlands map and tree cover
II
mapping. A-2 and BF districts . The south end of the County. Sign code
ordinance. Update the zoning ordinance . Computerize land use files.
Development procedures and check list .
Headla : I want to go over the tree ordinance .
Batzli : The tree overlay ordinance? Is that the one you ' re looking at?
II
Hanson: Mapping the existing mature stands?
Headla: That' s different than in case a builder comes in and mows all the II
trees down . I want us to look at that one .
Conrad: Next meeting I would hope we could start building plans. Our II
work agenda and whatever . Our next meeting , I think it 'd be good to keep
the agenda to a minimum so we could get into some of these issues and
start talking about what we want to accomplish for the coming year . Make
II
that more of a working session where we throw you the laundry list or you
have the laundry list .
Headla: I ' ve said several times , we' ve got a maple leaf, I 'd like to see II
more maple trees but the trend is to conifers. Then I look up here and I
see fir and I look at the new podium and that' s made out of fir , I think
II
we' re headed for the coniferous forest .
Emmings: Put a needle up here instead?
Headla: Make it a pine cone. II
Batzli moved , Headla seconded to adjourn the meeting . All voted in favor II
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10: 00 p.m. .
Submitted by Steve Hanson 1
Planning Director Prepared by Nann Opheim
1
I
PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
' REGULAR MEETING
JANUARY 24 , 1989
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7 : 30 p.m. .
' MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Sue Boyt, Ed Hasek, Larry Schroers, Carol
Watson, and Curt Robinson
STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema , Park and Rec Coordination and Todd Hoffman,
Recreation Supervisor
' APPOINTMENT OF ACTING CHAIRPERSON.
Mady moved, Boyt seconded to appoint Curt Robinson as the Acting
Chairperson of the meeting for January 24 , 1989 . All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
' APPROVAL OF MINUTES .
Mady: I have a comment. On page 49 of the Minutes , we were talking about
' the indoor ice arena and a tape break occurred and all of a sudden Lori ' s
saying , I don ' t know what their problem is and unless you knew what
happened in the meeting, you wouldn' t have any idea what went on. At that
point we should note that we had been talking about the Carrico property.
At tape breaks, we should probably almost add a little bit. Most of them
aren ' t too bad . They' re usually right in the middle of a discussion but
this one we changed topics entirely and unless you knew what happened at
the meeting , no way are you going to pick up on this .
Boyt: I have a minor correction on page 6. Where it says , outstanding
outstanding . It should be outstanding standing .
Robinson: Since we' re talking about minor corrections, I have one on page
26 that I 'm almost ashamed to bring up. At the bottom of the page it
says, take the hook off the antenna cable. What I actually said was, take
the hook off the attendant . What I meant to say is , take the attendant
off the hook.
Schroers : As long as we' re into minor corrections , I have one on page 7 .
Where it says, I would like to ask what their environmental and
conservation point of view, it should be, for the City of Chanhassen would
be rather than plan. It ' s the second paragraph on the bottom.
Hoffman : That'd be a fairly indepth , their plan Larry.
Schroers: That' s exactly my point. Then I had another little one on,
this is page 21, about the fifth paragraph from the bottom. It should
say, I can make it instead of I can' t.
Mady moved , Boyt seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and
' Recreation Commission meeting dated January 10, 1989 as amended. All
voted in favor except Watson who abstained and the motion carried .
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 2
DISCUSSION OF TOTLOT PURCHASE AT CITY CENTER PARK - APPOINT PRESIDENT -
CAROL OLSON.
Sietsema: As you may recall , the 1989 Capital Improvement Program '
includes $40, 000. 00 for totlot equipment for City Center Park. It has
come to our attention that the APT and the School are also working on
fundraising to purchase totlot equipment and playground equipment for the
City site . They heard about our money and we heard about theirs and we
thought, hey, let' s get together . So this is basically just an
information discussion back and forth , kind of informal thing to find out
what we each have in mind. I think what the Commission has in mind may
vary as well so if you just want to open it up for discussion.
Robinson: Can we hear from Carol Olson? Is Carol here? 1
Carol Olson : Yes , I 'm here.
Robinson: Could you tell us what you had in mind? 1
Carol Olson: Our major block of fund raising this year has been for the I
playground. We' re spending money on other things too so we're hoping that
after Fun Fair we might have about $10, 000. 00. That ' s not going to do
much but it will get a start. The obvious place where we feel we need to
do something is , what side of the building is that for the little kids?
The north end . That is the oldest equipment over there and it ' s very
outdated . That ' s what we' re trying to find out . Where are you putting
yours? Is it going to go in that same area? Is it going to go somewhere 111 else because if you were going to put $40, 000 . 00 into that area , then we
won' t work so hard towards playground equipment. We've got other things
we could spend the money on and just put something smaller in there.
We' re committed to do playground equipment because we' ve told everybody
that ' s what we ' re doing so we've got to get something but maybe we don' t
have to work towards a $20, 000. 00 or $30,000. 00 unit if the City' s putting
something in there. I
Mady: Our discussions have pretty much revolved around the idea of
creating a play structure the size of, some of the very nice ones you see
in some of the major parks like Eden Prairie . We want something very
nice. The City Center Park is a focal point really for the real town of
Chanhassen . The kids need a nice structure . St . Hubert ' s has got a
fairly nice structure now in their play area. It' s a little bit smaller
than what I think we were envisioning but we want something very nice .
Location wise, I don' t think we 've really specified. One of the things we
were looking at is having the park redesigned . Having it laid out so it
can be utilized better. Personally I recognize the fact that the
equipment on the north side of the school especially needs some work.
There are concerns about some of the equipment being safe and that , so
what we want to do is create a nice play structure up there. Something
that the kids can use a lot of imagination on and will accommodate a lot
of kids. Be a focal point . We want to bring their children up of all
ages so they have something they can all do. Exact location at this time,
I don' t know. That site is being considered for our Community Center too
J.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 3
at this time so a plan will be coming up.
Robinson : Is some of that land city land and some of school district
property?
Sietsema : The City owns to just the other side of the warming house and
then the School District owns everything to the north of that.
aMady: The warming house south is the City. 2 to 3 acres of City property
to about 10 to 11 acres of school property.
' Robinson: So anything we were going to do , we would not put on school
district property, like to the north of the school?
Mady: No , not necessarily because it ' s kind of a joint . . .
Sietsema: Because we maintain the whole park. The agreement that we've
' had with the school district , as I understand it is that when school
session is out, the whole site is ours to schedule and during school
hours , it' s the school . The whole site . So during school hours they come
over and they go ice skating or they play ball on all three fields , even
the one that' s on ours and after school , we schedule it for the T-Ball and
Ragball and that kind of thing and schedule tennis lessons . We share
jointly the cost of maintenance on the tennis courts and the facilities .
' I don ' t know if we ' ve shared the cost of anything on the playground
equipment . I think it ' s everything that ' s been behind the school
basically. The tennis courts and the ballfields , the running track and
' the ice rinks .
Schroers : Do we have a time frame that we ' re working with here?
Carol Olson: We want to know, if we' re going to do something, we want to
get something obviously that ' s a big structure there also because that ' s
where all the, it' s kindergarten, first and second use that area at
recess . That' s a lot of kids so you can' t just put up a small unit but
we' re going to have do something in a phasing. We can ' t raise $20, 0001. 001
in one year . We just can ' t do it.
Boyt: Do you have the option of buying materials and having parents
assemble it?
' Carol Olson : That idea has been kicked around . I don ' t know about
liability and I don' t know how much, we' ve talked about it .
Bob Ostlund : That ' s been done at other school sites . . .a year ago .
Boyt: It was done at St. Hubert ' s . It was done in an elementary school
' north of the Twin Cities . They had their own architect come in.
Watson: Minnetonka School District does it , like out at Minnewashta. The
parents put up all the playground equipment out there and they simply had
someone from the school was there and checked everything and made sure
that they were in fact . Of course they had people who knew how to use
I
Yy
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 4
11
tools and were reasonably competent to begin with but that has cut the
cost way down.
Boyt : I think you can get at least four times the playground , in talking
to the parents at St. Hubert ' s, they were astounded that anyone would have
$10, 000. 00 to spend on playground equipment . I ' ve been thinking of the
City Center Park, working on the southern end. The southern playground
that the older kids use . Partly because I think one of the most dangerous
pieces of equipment is there right now. The jungle gym.
Carol Olson : That ' s not the one that has the most problems. It' s the
stuff on the other end. That seems to be the bigger problem.
Watson : You mean from the standpoint of injuries and kids getting hurt
and stuff? It ' s up on the north one where the littler kids are? i
•
Carol Olson: Yes .
Watson: That stands to reason.
Carol Olson : We just thought , if you were going to spend $40, 000. 00, I
don ' t see that that whole area warrants $80, 000. 00 worth of playground
equipment . For us to go into a phasing thing , it would be real nice to be
able to work it so it could be located in an area where the school could
use it also .
Boyt : Does the school district have any plans to get rid of some of the
equipment that' s had many injuries?
Carol Olson : It ' s something that we' re looking at right now in terms of
what can we, if we take it down right now. . .
Boyt: I think that ' s something that I 'd like to know. If we ' re going to
take out 4 pieces over here and 2 pieces here, what' s going to be left . . . ?
I think there' s some that really need to go. '
Carol Olson: You have that money in your budget. You' re not sure where
but what ' s your timeframe? When are you looking at some kind of action on
it?
Boyt : It could happen this spring .
Robinson: We ' re going to prioritize. We' ve got a number of items and
we' re going to prioritize them tonight. Sometime in 1989 .
Mady: It' s our goal to have that in place. I
Schroers: Does the City already have someone that we use for this on a
budget thing and architect that would design it or would it go on bids?
Sietsema: Well , $40,000. 00 would have to go out on bids because anything
over $15, 000 . 00 but typically we ' ve worked with Earl F. Anderson with our
playground equipment. We' ve gotten real good service from them and
I
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 5
' they' ve been willing to come out and help us design what we want and that
kind of thing. They' re very reputable and their equipment holds up very
well .
Carol Watson : Is that from Mexican ,Forge?
Sietsema: Yes, I believe so. They are not necessarily the cheapest but
' they go by, there ' s a handbook on playground equipment that has become the
Bible in liability cases. And if your structures are not built to the
specifications that are in this handbook that was set up as a guideline,
then you are more likely to lose your case if someone' s hurt on that
equipment and they build all of their equipment by those specifications .
Schroers: Okay, and to obtain his services , does that have to go out on
' bid or can we just hire that straight out as far as having him come and
look and see what we have?
ISietsema : He can come and look at what we have and make recommendations
and draw things up but the actual purchase is probably going to have to go
out on bids. We may want to hire someone that would be independent that
would help us decide what, with that amount of money, help us decide what
we want and then go from there.
Schroers : To have them go out and take a look and see what ' s what , how
' much money do you think we 'd be talking about for that?
Sietsema : The guy at Earl F. Anderson would come out and do it for
nothing if he was pretty sure that he'd be awarded the job.
Schroers : Or if he had a good chance at it?
Sietsema : Yes . That' s part of the services that he' s provided in the
past .
' Schroers : That seems like that would be a good way to get the ball
rolling. Contact them and have someone come out and look things over .
Give us some advice.
Sietsema : Location really is the key point here because if the community
center , if the City Center Park site is chosen for the community center in
the next couple years , that ' s not where we want to sink $40, 000. 00 of
' equipment and then have to move it within the next year or two .
Boyt : But the north playground?
' Sietsema : On the north side, that wouldn' t be affected then.
Mady: Not necessarily. We are talking about asking, at the Task Force
meetings, we talked about looking at the 4 or 5 acres that are directly
north of there . I know when I met at community meetings with the
community center, I will be asking the residents who attend those meetings
their thoughts on acquiring that 4 acres of land since we have fairly
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 6
11
accurate counts for that . It would just open up things for us a little
bit.
Sietsema: Do you think that ' s where the playground equipment would be
going out?
Mady: It would maybe allow us to expand over because it' s 100 feet wide
there I believe, at that spot. It just gives a little bit more room to '
position the equipment there.
Watson : And maybe move away from that parking lot a little bit better
because it really is pretty close to the parking lot. When the kids are
out there and the parking situation has gotten to the point that that
school , where it' s very difficult to find a parking space and there
doesn ' t necessarily have to be anything going on there of a significant
nature so that lot is being used a lot more. It didn't used to be used
that much . The kids were relatively safe over there because people
usually parked up in front or on this side, for some reason, but now that
lot is used alot and I think there' s a much more significant hazard for
those kids.
Boyt : Do you know when the Community Center Task Force is going to make a
recommendation?
Mady: I would guess we' re going to start holding public meetings, I 'm
going to think late February, I 'm hoping to start . We' re meeting next
week to go over some things. I would hope we' re going to start scheduling
some meetings and getting input. I would think if we do the meetings
properly and people attend , we should have some input to the Council I
would think by early April .
Boyt : That' s getting pretty late to order any equipment . '
Mady: Well, I think we can order equipment .
Boyt : But they have to know the site to decide what playground . That ' s
pretty important for the architect.
Sietsema : All he needs to know is if it ' s going to be a square spot , a
round spot, a rectangular spot and how big and what we' re working around.
Boyt : So if it' s a high priority for us , to get the playground equipment
in this year, we might not get two. . .
Mady: Two? '
Boyt : North and South .
Mady: Oh , for the equipment . I would like to see the whole site designed 1
by the park. . . I think that' s probably the most important thing we have
to look at things like the tennis court is running down. If you really
want that tennis court. The ground is full of cracks . The posts have II been risen through frost heave, they' ve come up out of the ground a little
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 7
1
' bit. It needs to be reworked and we' re probably going to be looking at
having to redo that site in the next couple years so we need to have a
plan for the entire site that kind of makes sense . Because right now, the
way the fields are laid out. . .
Boyt : We don ' t have that in our budget for this year but we do have the
playground equipment in our budget for this year .
' Mady: But we can find room in our budget as we have in the past to
design, a couple thousand dollars to design a park area .
' Boyt : I think Lori was saying it ' s pretty expensive because they have to
survey the property.
Sietsema: They can probably do it for $1, 500 . 00, come up with a design
because typically what it' s cost us in the past. I think it' s a good idea
that the sequence that things should go in is have a plan and then put
your things where they' re supposed to go according to the plan but it ' s
difficult to put a plan if you don' t know if there ' s going to be a big
huge building in the middle of it or not. Perhaps we' re not going to be
able to work together with the APT and the school . We' re going to have to
put ours on hold until we know what the community center is doing .
Robinson: I really thing we should do that .
' Sietsema : For $40, 000. 00, I think we should put it where we want it to
go . In the right spot and $40, 000. 00 worth of equipment is going to be a
big thing to work around if we put it in and then try to work around it
and put in a building and ballfields and what not .
' Boyt: You guys need to get going .
Mady: Well we ' re meeting next week. It ' s somewhat of a different group.
We don' t build a consensus quickly.
' Robinson: I think we should put it on the agenda for an equal time frame
and we' ll get specific about it to look at it again or review it . Put it
off in other words .
Sietsema: As soon as we have a clearer understanding of what the
community center is doing.
Robinson: Jim thought that could be in April so let ' s get it on the
agenda for April . If we know anything more then, fine. If we don' t,
well , at least we look at it.
Watson: Is April going to be kind of late for you?
Carol Olson : We wanted to do something but it doesn ' t make sense for us
to do something just in order to spend money.
' Watson : And we have the constraints of this potential building , etc . . At
any rate, we need a park plan or something should be done out there so
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 8
that when , even after the building ' s there and we do start to plan your
ballfi.elds and all that stuff, that we do know where we' re going .
Sietsema: We need to work with the school to find out if they want to
rearrange the ballfields too and the tennis court and everything else too .
We' re making some assumptions here.
Watson: What they need done because it ' s always going to be a joint
venture. So they get their equipment too.
Sietsema: Do you have some criteria as far as how far away from the
school you want it?
Carol Olson: We' ve really been listening to what you have to say too .
What the whole design is going to be. It' s really crazy for us right now
to say we want it here if there might be a building there .
Bob Ostlund : I totally agree with what Jim said. A site plan to
coordinate on is what really is necessary right now so where the
playground equipment goes can fit with what the overall plan for the site
is . With or without the community center . I think that really is the
first step and then we' ll have to take a look at it and try to think of
possibilities with APT or other interested parties on something once we
have that in place.
Boyt : We' ll need a joint venture to get the design because the school has II
three grades on one playground and three on another.
Mady: I move to table to our first meeting in April and that if a
decision is made in the City prior to concerning the community center
site , move it to an earlier agenda .
Watson: Second .
Mady moved , Watson seconded to table action on the totlot equipment for
the City Center Park until the first meeting in April or if a decision
regarding the community center is made prior to this date , that it be
moved to an earlier agenda. All voted in favor and the motion carried .
REVIEW GRADING PLAN FOR LAKE ANN PARK, LAURIE MCROSTI . ,
Sietsema: Laurie' s not here yet. I told her that it might take a while
with our discussion so if we want to move on and then come back to this
when she gets here. I also told Richard. I anticipated this discussion
to go longer .
RECREATION SUPERVISOR' S UPDATE ON PROGRAMS .
Hoffman: 8 (a) discusses ballfi.eld scheduling. Some of the situations
that have arisen in the past year specifically. If you ' ve read through
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 9
t it, it discusses situations that are occurring down at Meadow Green Park
with the two ballfields that we have there. Gary Meister and the girls
softball program has kind of grown accustomed to using those fields . That
program is growing to the point where last year they had 4 teams . Now
this year he' s anticipating 5 or 6 and he would like pretty much exclusive
use of that field , or those two fields that are there. I noted if we
granted that request, what some of the problems would be where we have
' other requests to use some of those fields . Specifically field #2 or one
from Westside Baptist in as well . Last year Field #2 was pretty much left
empty throughout the week every night and many adult softball teams
scheduled practices down there as well . This year the battle has already
begun for field reservations . We don ' t have the written policy but I 'd
just let anybody know who would like to reserve a field , just to make a
written request anytime after January 1 and these two are the first
' requests in the door. I had one December 31st and one January 1st so they
were right on top of one another and with the additional growth going on
in the community, it' s only going to be a problem that intensifies before
'
it subsides . When some additional ballfields are put in. The 3 at Lake
Ann Park will help out to a certain extent but again, I think by the time
those are built, they will be used to their maximum potential and we ' ll be
' looking to the additional ballfields that will be coming into the south in
the southern park design for basically children type use sports . So what
I am asking of the Commission is a recommendation as if there is some
criteria we should look at . Whether it be which group should get certain
' preference on parks or if we should give certain parks to certain
activities . Say, Meadow Green Park and City Center specifically for youth
and Lake Ann Park specifically for adults . Lake Ann Park is another site
where many of the youth organizations , specifically Little League and the
Babe Ruth League, we 'd like to see more youths there as well . As I ' ve
noted on the next item, we ' re pretty much up to full capacity there with
' our adult softball leagues .
Robinson : Todd , can the ballfields at South Lotus Lake Park that ' s
scheduled . . . for 1989, be used for league play? I realize not this year
' but. . .
Hoffman : At South Lotus Lake? Yes , our policy is basically that
neighborhood ballfields can be used for the children' s or the youth
activities . T-ball , pee wee, ragball , those type of things but it ' s just
not a compatible use for adult league play so we don' t schedule any adult
leagues there. That ' s basically why we leave Lake Ann Park for the adult
' leagues. But yes, to answer your question, once it is there, it will be
used for youth sports .
Robinson : So that will help alleviating your problem?
Hoffman: Yes .
Robinson : And the addition fields at Lake Ann .
Hoffman: And the additional field at North Lotus Lake will as well . That
will not be in use this year . For intensive league play, I wouldn' t
probably recommend it this year. It will probably get used by the
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 10
neighborhood children in that area to a certain extent anyway but I don ' t
believe the grass is going to be fully matured where we should use it.
Boyt : How about a practice field?
Mady: Yes , I talked to one of the Little League coaches this year and had
mentioned again that we had, in our budget we would be putting in a mound
at North Lotus so they would have at least a practice facility field . I
told him it' s not going to be big enough to hold your games on but at
least you' re going to have a place where you can take some infield , hit
some balls around, take outfield. When the Legion field' s busy, you at
least have a facility to use. A friend of mine complains quite regularly
about the lack of fields. Actually there' s a couple of different guys
complain regularly about lack of fields so we need to accommodate as much
as we can but it' s going to kick off a bit at existing ones is very
difficult also .
Boyt: Have we provided. . . ,
(A tape change occured during Sue Boyt ' s question. )
Hoffman: . . . in the industrial league from Monday to Tuesday. We've flip
flopped those so the women ' s league who had 9 teams , they can play their
entire league on two fields . That would allow Field #3 to be used for the
Little League on Tuesday nights as well so they did play some games here
at Lake Ann Park.
Robinson : Maybe we could get some ideas if you also updated us on (a) and
(b) because that definitely comes into play I believe on the other part
doesn ' t it?
Hoffman: Yes . If nothing else, on 8 (a) , if we want to remain as is and
just try to work out the most sensible solutions to field scheduling
conflicts , it just brings to your attention the rising need for additional
ballfield space that is occurring. '
Boyt : Is Westside Baptist the church that ' s meeting in the industrial
park?
Mady: A question or I guess a comment which is mainly about Meadow Green
Park is that it truly is a neighborhood park so if we can at least keep
one field open , not even schedule practices but just have it there and if
a softball team shows up, they can use it or if the neighborhood kids, if
they' re playing , they can use it or whoever gets there first has got it .
Unless we run into a situation where a couple teams are battling it out I
for it and we start running into problems , then we' ll have to do something
but we do have Carver Beach, it' s just a small field. Maybe the girls
could use that one. It' s not that far away.
Hoffman: Carver Beach is used by T-ball and ragball currently.
Mady: In the summer after that. '
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 11
Hoffman : Girls softball goes a little farther into July, mid-July.
Mady: It ' s tough. Until we get our parks built, it' s going to be tough.
Robinson : It is and I think we should , I know you' re doing the best job
you can. I think we should almost , if it would make you feel better , make
that a written policy. You say there ' s an unwritten policy now which
' allows returning groups or organizations , you ' ve got your priorities set .
I think we should almost make that a written policy.
Boyt: I don' t think so. Because of the children coming in. I think we
need to make room for the children and if it' s an adult league where
people from outside of Chanhassen playing and although it sounds like
almost everyone is from Chanhassen and I think they should be bumped for
' Chanhassen children.
Robinson: Chanhassen residents period . I think that ' s why I 'd like to
' talk about 8 (b) because I think we could pin this down a little bit if we
go onto 8 (b) .
' Boyt : We' re leaving 8 (a) yet .
Hoffman : 8 (b) , as I stated , does go hand and hand with the availability
of ballfields . 8 (b) discusses the adult softball player eligibility
requirements . We' re up to 56 teams that participates on 5 nights a week,
Monday thru Friday in our adult softball leagues . In the past , probably
the farther you go back the more non-residents you have. The more non-
resident teams you have just to make a viable league so the people who are
actually here in town can participate in an enjoyable league . As the City
continues to grow, there' s going to be more and more people within our
city boundary which would like to participate on a league . As time
progresses , we can probably start getting more strict on our requirements
for eligibility. The problem in bringing that into play is how the teams
now are patterned . They' re set in their ways . Anytime you bring up any
' type of change in eligibility for players , you' re going to have some
discussion and some problems in dealing with those teams . So you just
want to really make yourself think through a clear decision and try to
come up with a good policy in which to do so. In which to limit non-
residents to our Chanhassen softball leagues .
Schroers: This is a little bit off the subject topic. I ' ve had people
' ask me if we have openings on our team. People from Chanhassen that would
like to get on a softball team and we certainly don' t. Do any of the team
managers contact you and say that they could use a player or two or can we
' refer people to you who are looking to get on a team?
Hoffman : In a few leagues they do . I try to advertise that individuals,
new people that are moving into town, if you would like to get on a team
and you don ' t have that contact , to give me a call and hopefully we can
make a match. More times than not, it ' s just through casual conversation
that I talk to a manager and ask them. Most of the team managers do not
volunteer that they have an opening on their team so at times it is
difficult to make those matches .
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 12
Mady: Larry and I both recognize, at least in the over 35 league , there
is probably 3 or 4 teams who consistently have problems getting a full
team of 10 players . I think what we need to do is tell managers in the
early meeting that because of problems we have with schedule fields , just
the tightness we have, number one, we' re going to have to eliminate the
outside teams that are coming in that have nobody living in Chanhassen.
I 'm sorry, but we've got to let our kids play on our fields . Number two,
I would like to see us set some kind of a standard to the existing teams
who do have residents in Chanhassen, that 60%, 75%, something that live or
work in the City of Chanhassen because I know the team I play on from time
to time pick up people from outside the area just to fill the team. I
don' t think that' s right. I 've told my coach that a number of times but I
think until the City sets up a policy on it , my team' s going to continue
picking up a good ball player from wherever instead of committing to a '
city that may have problem with their team because we want to keep their
position in the league.
Boyt : From what I ' ve seen from your coach and I don ' t know if it' s true
of other coaches . . .he calls the neighbors and says, will you play. They
never show up but he turns in a roster of names so he' s got a team.
Mady: It happens . I know a number of the teams that have 17 , 18 , 20
players on the team. They consistently have trouble getting 9 players to
the field. We've got to do something . '
Boyt : I think that if more of our children ' s teams are full of Chanhassen
people, they should have priority. Chanhassen residents and people who
work in Chanhassen.
Schroers : I agree with that . I think that Chanhassen teams and existing
teams that have been in the league for a number of years should have
priority. When we get down to more of an individual thing , that really
opens up a can of worms . We have players that were born and raised , grew
up, went to school at Chanhassen. All their roots are in Chanhassen.
They basically say that they are from Chanhassen but they got married and
maybe now they live in Bloomington or Richfield or someplace like that .
Are you going to tell those people that they can' t play?
Mady: Yes . We' ve got kids who can ' t play ball and they do live here and
that' s the problem.
Schroers : I 'm talking about adults , not kids .
Watson: But adults will drive the distance to play ball . Children don' t
have those kinds of choices . Children play with their friends and they
want to be with their friends and they want to play close to home.
Boyt : It sounds like it ' s going to be a lot of hurt feelings in the adult
league but it sounds like we want to change the rules .
Schroers : I think before we get to that , eliminating outside teams from
the league would make more sense .
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 13
1 Watson: How many outside teams do we have?
Mady: In the adult league , about 2?
Hoffman : Yes . Very small percentage and a portion of those outside teams
who have outside sponsors , also have people that live or work in
' Chanhassen participating . I don ' t think there ' s probably a team in any of
our adult leagues that is strictly an outside team, meaning an organized
team from Eden Prairie that plays over there and then comes to Chanhassen
' and plays a night. There' s no such team in any of our adult leagues .
There are some, so called , outside teams which may be made up of 60% to
75% of outside players . You have to make that distinction. It ' s either
the outside teams would nice to leave but it ' s better to go by player .
' Just to give you some more information on that, I did attach that survey
and if you noted on there , 3 (e) and 3 (f) dealt specifically with what
other cities are- doing for their eligibility.
1 Robinson : Where' s the response to that? Is it on this matrix?
' Hoffman: Yes, the response, I don' t see it . Under observations , the
first page there , number 6 deals with it specifically. About 25% of
cities surveyed required all players to live or work in the sports
community. Another 25% registered teams by priority system which we did
' last year and which takes quite a bit of time to do. It' s hard to control
being the same thing that Sue noted . You can call your neighbors up . You
can fill your roster with your playing team and then call all your
neighbors and fill the other 10 places with Chanhassen names and it makes
your percentage look quite a bit better. So that works to a certain
extent . It requires a lot of time on my part going through and ranking ,
counting the outside players of people who live or work and then coming up
' with a percentage. 33% respondents allow anywhere from 2 to 7 outside
players per team. That seems, it ' s a popular method in some of our
neighboring communities . You allow up to 3 outside players to
' participate. On a different part of the roster, this is where your 3
outside players can , you put their names down here. They' re outside
players and either the player pays an outside fee to have the right to
' play within our community or the team pays an extra $25. 00 or $50. 00 to
have those 1 to 3 outside players . So there are a variety of ways of
restricting it . Again , it does look like a good solution but if you look
at, as noted on there, if you look at the make-up of our leagues
' currently, we do probably have 35% outside players which are playing so it
affects a lot of people. It affects not only those people but the teams
and their players and the other people playing on that team as well . So
' it gets to be a very vocal opposition.
Robinson : I noticed a number of, again I 'm referring to this thing where
' it says, numbers of outsiders allowed. Percent of teams registered by
percent of residents . A number of them have zero .
Hoffman: Meaning that no outside players are allowed, yes .
1
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 14
Robinson : Right . Richfield , Blaine, Edina , Brooklyn Park, Shakopee ,
Moundview.
Boyt : Eden Prairie .
Watson : So we wouldn ' t excactly be clearing new ground if we said that ,
and if we are running up against the problem where we've got virtually
people signing up on the 1st of January for fear they' re not going to get
a field and there' s kids teams that won' t be assembled for several months
yet and we don ' t know how many kids are going to come out for these
things .
Boyt : This year we have 8 sections of kindergarteners at Chanhassen
Elementary. That 's a tremendous number of T-ball players I 'd say. Some
of them are from Chaska but we' re going to have a big increase in children
in our T-ball league.
Watson : And their leagues don ' t form January 1. It' s going to be spring
and summer before we even know how many teams they have and that sort of
thing . It ' s going to be difficult to be able to schedule them in fields
because people are already writing on January 1 to say I want both the
fields at Meadow Green Park. We want them to play too but some people
can' t schedule 7 months in advance.
Hoffman : The youth T-ball , ragball , pee wee , has the 3 fields at City
Center Park. The field at Rice Marsh Park and Carver Beach Playground
Park so that' s 4 fields. That ' s what they have and that ' s what they' ll
need to make do with this year .
Boyt : Can we put a backstop at Lake Riley?
Mady: You mean Bandimere?
Boyt : Yes . Could we put a ball diamond . . .
Mady: Like Carver Beach has?
Hoffman : For just pick-up games , we could certainly do that but again,
summer soccer does some certain practices down there and we wouldn' t want
to schedule that .
Robinson : It looks , according to the survey, that Chanhassen is pretty
liberal with the outsiders. Outsider fee for player . We charge zero.
Most of them charge from $8 . 00, $10. 00, $20. 00 , $25 . 00 tops at Minnetonka .
Eligibility conduct deposit. Some are $20. 00 up to $100. 00. We charge
none . I think we need to tighten up for non-Chanhassen residents .
Mady: I guess my gut feeling when I look at this thing is I 'd like to see
us . . .but I don' t want to cut it off entirely either because I know what
kind of fear it' s going to cause. I know the people who come to your
softball meetings and I know how upset they get about very little things
very easily so if we could institute a policy where these 5 people, you
get 5 non-resident , non-workers on your team. That gives you 5 people who
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 15
' are on the field . You' re allowed a roster of 18-20 people so if you
wanted that.
Watson : I was going to say, what percentage would that be , about 25%
then?
Mady: Roughly. That gives enough people on the field . If you can' t get
half your ball players out of Chanhassen, when we' re tying up fields as it
is , I 'm sorry, go play in Minneapolis because Minneapolis will let you
come from anywhere. If you pay the dollars , they' ll put you on the field
someplace. This is just getting to that point.
Watson: I think you' re being very generous .
' Mady: 2 to 3 years from now when Lake Ann has 6 fields and hopefully
we' ll have a park in southern Chanhassen with 4 fields , maybe we ' ll be
able to do something but right now, we' re too tight . We need to let our
kids play someplace too. I play adult softball . I have been ever since
I ' ve lived here .
' Schroers : What that does , at 50-50 and I think that ' s reasonable , but
what' s going to happen is that there' s going to be a lot of long time
players getting displaced .
Hasek: What is the policy right now?
Hoffman : The policy, it' s stated on 8 (b) , right on the front . Basically
' we use a percentage system. Any teams last year, we had 21 teams in the
open league, Men ' s open league who wanted to get in for 14 spots . In
order to pare that down, I believe 18 out of those 21 teams submitted a
roster . I had to go through that roster . Check those addresses . See if
they lived or worked there. Both their resident and their work address .
See if they lived or worked and prioritize all those 18 teams into a
percentage. 100% live or work . 80% live or work. Draw a line inbetween
' 14 and 15 and the bottom 4 drop out . That gets to be a very lengthy
process . It gets to be a process that doesn' t work well because you can
have your 10 working players and fill the other 10 with your neighbors who
' never show up at the ballfield and it' s not a real good representation.
It ' s a system that a lot of communities use but it ' s not the best one I
don' t believe. So what we' re looking for Ed i.s , we' re at a point where
are ballfi.elds are getting full and we' re trying to tighten up or if it is
a reasonable solution, tighten up who ' s playing adult ball .
Hasek: That ' s for the men ' s . What is it for the over 35?
Hoffman: It' s the same.
' Hasek: Let ' s say we go to 3 ball players per roster , that didn ' t happen?
Even though they voted on it, that didn' t happen?
Hoffman : Voted on it at the meeting?
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 16
Hasek: Yes . Wasn ' t there some discussion at the meeting that we had? I
know we voted on something 3 or 4 times there.
Hoffman: That was if you had to be 35 or older to play on the 35 and over
league or if you could be under .
Hasek: That ' s right . It' s a 35 league and they were trying to decide
whether you had to be 35. '
Schroers : Todd , do you have a recommendation? An avenue that you'd like
to pursue on this?
Hoffman : I hesitate to make a recommendation . I 'm looking for a
recommendation from the Council .
Robinson : If we put some restrictions on non-residents , is that workable
for you? Would that cause you big problems in implementing that?
Hasek: That ' s what they' re looking for . Somebody to make the rules so
they have something to back them because the problem is, you go into those
meetings and everybody' s throwing stuff at you and if you leave it up to
them, they' ll never decide. They' ll sit there for hours arguing about
nothing so really it' s up to the board and the recreation department to
set the rules to guide the thing. That' s the way it has to be.
Sietsema : But you must be aware , if you do limit it to 3 outside players
or whatever it is, that we' re going to be masses of phone calls. You' re
going to start getting phone calls. The City Council will get phone
calls. The Mayor will get phone calls . The City Manager will get phone
calls . Softball is a very emotional game. I don ' t mean to make a big
deal out of nothing but I ' ll tell you, there are guys that lived in
Chanhassen 15 years ago that are now living on the other side of St . Paul
that still play here and if we were to say that they can' t play, we' re
going to have, that ' s the decrepence league . Who ' s that from?
Watson: That' s the good ol ' boys of baseball . . .
Sietsema: That ' s just it. It ' s been really hard for us , especially for
the league that' s been here the longest, the over 35 league, to change
from the good ol ' boys beer league to a bonafide city league . It ' s been a
hard, hard thing for them to make that conversion. It ' s been hard for us
to help them make that conversion. Nobody wants to make anybody' s life
miserable but we' ve got 3 ballfields and who are we going to allow? The
good ol ' boys that have always played here forever no matter where lived
or the people who are waiting in line to get in? '
Hasek : The simple fact is that the ballfields belong to the people that
live in this community. All of the people and if you 've got a son that
wants to play. If you 've got a daughter that wants to play. If you've
got a church league within the city that wants to play. Those are first
priority. That' s the way the thing ought to be set up . We obviously do
not want to reject anybody. However, if that' s what has to be done in '
order to accommodate the people in the City, then that is what has to be
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 17
done . I don' t care if you' ve played in the City for 50 years and you live
20 feet the other side of the City of Chanhassen property, if you don' t
live in the community and that ' s what the rules state , then that ' s what
the rule will have to be. I think that anytime you' ve got somebody that
doesn ' t live in the community and is somehow contributing to the
community, playing on a league when you've got someone here that wants to
play in any recreation and hasn ' t a chance because someone else has got a
' spot that they can take, then it ' s inappropriate and it has to be
rectified .
' Boyt : I think that' s how we need to prioritize it too . We need to find
out how many diamonds Little League in Chanhassen needs. How many girls
softball needs. How many the little kids need . How many the church
leagues need. How many the adult leagues need who are from Chanhassen.
' Let ' s start out with how many we need to meet the needs of the people that
live in Chanhassen.
' Mady: We' ll never make that.
Hasek : It might actually have to happen that some of the leagues , there
' might be a group of people that want to bring in some more teams . They've
got people calling and they have room for more teams . There might be a
league that has teams already playing on it that just are not legal and it
might have to be that we have to cut those leagues in order to accommodate
' the others. Yes, it' s not an easy thing to have to do but if that ' s what
has to be done to accommodate the people within the City of Chanhassen ,
then I think that' s exactly what we have to do. I know our mens softball
team is going to probably suffer too but if that ' s the way it has to be ,
that' s the way it has to be.
' Mady: I make the motion that the City of Chanhassen limit outside
softball players to a maximum of 5 players per team for this coming year .
See what affect it has on our field availability. We may have to do
better match our needs , the needs of our residents to our limited use to
our limited availability. Knowing full well that there will be probably
some major blood letting but I think it' s time it has to be done .
' Robinson: Is there a second to Jim' s motion?
Boyt : Limit the number of outsiders to 5. . .
Mady: Actually on a team.
Boyt : Well , that' s it . We have children playing who live in Minnetonka ,
' Eden Prairie and Chaska who play in Chanhassen so if you want it to
pertain to just adults or to everyone that ' s playing .
Mady: If we have a problem, we have a problem across the board, then we
need to limit all non-residents so that the residents have first priority.
Boyt: I think 5 is too big a number and that' s why I will not second it.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 18
Sietsema: If we go down through the children level of playing on your
limiting, then we have to notify CAA that they have to restructure their
whole registration . Their whole membership process because right now the
CAA is set up to serve the area , the kids in the area that Chanhassen
Elementary serves and that includes people from Victoria and Chaska as
well and Eden Prairie. And the people that go to St. Hubert' s. I know
that' s not , that' s just another wrench in the works but that may have a
major affect of how Chanhassen Athletic Association is run . '
Mady: Those people actually, they' re part of the school . They' re here so
I ' ll amend my motion to limit it to the adult league.
Robinson : Is there a second to Jim' s motion now?
Hasek: I ' ll second if it' s going to be for adults . '
Boyt : Like I said, I think 5 is too big a number and I 'd go for 3.
Robinson: I would agree with you Sue. I think we should probably phase '
into this with a number like that. I too think 5 is too high. 3 would be
more appropriate in my mind.
Hasek: Could we suggest perhaps that this year it be 5 letting them know
that next year it' s going to be 3?
Watson : I think if you give them a lot of advanced warning is really
going to improve their attitude towards it. They' re just going to be mad
well in advance then . '
Hasek: What' s the practical difference between 3 and 5 in numbers? We ' re
talking about how many teams? How many bodies?
Boyt : 56 teams .
Hasek: So we' re talking about 112 people. '
Robinson: Max .
Hasek : Between 3 and 5. '
Mady: Knowing full well there' s a lot of people playing both leagues .
The mens leagues . The open mens leagues . I
Hasek: How would those be checked on there?
Boyt: On the roster you turn in, your Chanhassen roster and 3 people on
it can be your out of town roster .
Mady: I ' ll tell you how this all works . I ' ve played a fair amount of
softball prior to moving to Chanhassen. I lived one summer both, well
I actually lived in Edina . I was a resident at my parent ' s house in
Minneapolis and a real good friend of mine lived in Bloomington and played II
softball in those 3 leagues so that will happen here. At least it ' s
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 19
1
' sending a message out to try to get it down . See if we can get some
control on this . Hopefully within a couple of years when we do have the
new parks in place , it will free it up. We also know the City' s growing
in leaps and bounds and it ' s just really tough .
Hasek : So the two pieces of information that you really have to check,
could potentially be employment or a driver ' s license because a driver ' s
' license is supposedly to be, has to have your legal address right? I
guess I would strongly encourage that if we' re going to do this , that we
make every effort possible to really buckle down on it . If it' s going to
' be a rule, it' s got to be cracked down on. If you' re going to require
them as a resident to have a driver ' s license , then let' s check those
things .
Boyt : Is that like a bond lease put on a team?
Hasek : A lot of- communities will 'do that. An eligibility bond and if
' you' ve got a player playing caught who is not eligible to play, you lose
your bond .
' Robinson : Is that this eligibility conduct deposit?
Hoffman: Correct .
Boyt : That sounds like something we might want to implement.
Watson: Just to keep it honest .
' Schroers : I would like to know that if we limit it or whatever the
number, if it ' s 5 or 3, that it' s going to accomplish what we want to do .
Is it going to make enough fields available that if we limit it to 5 or if
' we limit it to 3, do we know that?
Hoffman : We don ' t know that for a fact but it ' s definitely going to help
the problem. It can ' t get any worse . If it doesn ' t help it to a degree ,
frees up 3 fields or frees up 1 field, it makes us look like we' re trying
to make an effort in that direction. You just go as close as Eden Prairie
and a non-resident. . . softball teams can make a reservation to use one of
their fields so we are very lenient . To answer Ed ' s question more
directly, communities such as Eden Prairie, St. Louis Park require a copy
of a driver ' s license and/or a pay stub if you work in that city right
along with your roster when you turn it in. We' ve heard cries of pain
from people thinking it was difficult in the past to get their league
roster in and this will just be all that much more but you are right in
' stating that if we are going to instate these restrictions , they should be
enforced .
Robinson : And we' re not new in this then if Eden Prairie is?
' Sietsema: No, you ' re not a trend setter that ' s for sure.
Hoffman : No . That ' s the reason I attached that survey, the softball
survey which is very helpful . It is the reason I attached both of these
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 20
on the same issue is because if we do make these changes , we are going to
have questions and we do want to have ourselves backed up. Doing so is
the problems we' re having with the ballfield scheduling is really one
reason why we should be making an effort .
Boyt : I think like Curt said , if it does not alleviate the problem enough
that we' re getting towards zero next year . . .
Hasek: I think it ' s only fair that if we' re really shooting for zero , if 1
that's what it' s going to take down the road here, that it' s only fair to
give them a warning that that potential exists .
Watson: This year it will be. . .
Hasek: No , just say for this year it will be 5 but there is the
possibility that next year it might be zero simply because of the number
of fields that we have. We've got fields coming on line but they' re 2
years down the road and the demand is now. It' s not 2 years from now. I
How it' s going to affect our league? Just looking at the 35 league , we' ve
got what , 3 teams that will be gone?
Hoffman : Potentially the team name could be wrong . A portion of the
players could be back under another name or on another team.
Hasek: Sure, but I 'm saying if you look simply at the teams and the '
rosters for the teams, there ' s 3 of them. Two of them from Chaska and 1
from Excelsior right?
Hoffman : Yes, but I would say every team is going to be affected in
having to restrict some of their outside players . Knowing the over 35
league and it' s personality, those people have been together for a long
time and you run into a team situation where you' ve got 15 or 20 guys
sitting around there trying to figure out which outside players they' re
going to say good-bye to and which ones are going to stay, you can imagine
they' re not going to, they' re going to try to get out of that situation
anyway they can.
Mady: It might be possible to go to a fee or something . A deposit they
. . .at the end of the year .
Robinson: I ' ll go for $100. 00 .
Boyt: $100. 00 eligibility bond.
Robinson: Most of them are $100. 00.
Mady: Yes, whatever the price is . See what the going rate is .
Robinson : There' s one at $20. 00 and a couple at $50. 00 but most are
$100. 00. Would you like to put that in your motion Jim or not?
Mady: Yes , I think it' s necessary. 1
11
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 21
Schroers : That and the notification that things could change next year .
So if you want to restructure it , then I ' ll support your motion.
' Hoffman : Before you do that Jim, you may also want to take a look at,
some communities charge the individual outside players for that right .
Some charge the team for allowing them to have those . Some just do not
charge for those outside players . That may be something, as long as we' re
going through the changes , to look at it completely.
Hasek: I think if we can settle the eligibility problems , just at the
' first crack at it here , we' ll take a look at that issue . Todd , I would
request, we've got a meeting coming up with the over 35 league, when in
May?
Hoffman : Organizational meeting , end of March .
Hasek : We should get this information out, if we decide on it, as quickly
as possible .
Hoffman : This would be mailed to all leagues .
Mady: You want me to recite my motion?
' Hasek : I think she ' s got it don ' t you? The revisions?
Sietsema: Yes, pretty much. Jim moved to limit outside players to 5 in
the adult leagues for the year 1989 and monitor to see if it makes a
difference and to instigate a $100. 00 eligibility bond and to notify the
players that it may be more restrictive in years to come.
' Hasek: Okay, just a little comment about checking on , making sure that if
we' re going to do this , that it gets checked and verified . Something ,
driver ' s license or I think the work pay stubs is a good idea .
' Sietsema: And to direct staff to verify eligibility.
Robinson: Do you still second that motion Ed?
' Hasek: Yes .
Mady moved , Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission limit
the number of outside players to 5 in the adult league for the year 1989
and monitor the situation to see if it makes a difference. Instigate a
$100. 00 eligibility bond for each team, direct staff to verify eligibility
and to notify the players that eligibility may become more restrictive in
the years to come. Mady, Hasek and Schroers voted in favor. Robinson ,
Boyt and Watson voted in opposition . The motion failed with a tie vote of
3 to 3 .
Robinson: Restructure it?
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 22
Hasek: Let ' s hear a motion from one on the other side then . I
Boyt: Same motion but limit it to 3 .
Watson : Second .
Boyt moved , Watson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission limit
the number of outside players to 3 in the adult league for the year 1989
and monitor the situation to see if it makes a difference . Instigate a
$100. 00 eligibility bond for each team, direct staff to verify eligibility II
and to notify the players that eligibility may become more restrictive in
the years to come. Mady, Hasek and Schroers voted in opposition.
Robinson , Boyt and Watson voted in favor . The motion failed with a tie
vote of 3 to 3.
Hasek: Okay, let' s compromise . Let ' s go to 4. Same motion but let ' s go
to 4. Second?
Robinson : That dies for lack of second . Is there another motion?
Hasek: The problem that exists here is , if we don' t do something- we' re
going to be stuck so we have to make a decision. We can ' t sit here all
night and play a game with this. Let' s come up with a number that we can
agree with. If 5 is too many and 3 is too few, what ' s wrong with 4?
Mady: What we' re trying to do, I know unless you attended that over 35
meeting , Todd and Lori are going to be, you' re going to have, Don is going II
to get more phone calls because of this probably than on any other issue
we' ll ever look at in the next year .
Boyt : You know what? I have a 10 year old son who might not be able to
play Little League in Chanhassen at all because we do not provide a
facilities so I don' t care if there ' s a man who lives in Eden Prairie
that' s upset about this . I don' t care. I want my 10 year old children. . .
Mady: But he' s going to be the one who calls .
Boyt: I don' t care if they call me. I want our kids in Chanhassen to be
able to play ball in Chanhassen . Not to go to South Tonka . Not to go to
Chaska. To be able to play in their hometown.
Schroers : That ' s reasonable, I ' ll compromise .
Hasek: I make the same motion with 4. Is there a second?
Mady: Second .
Hasek moved , Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission limit
the number of outside players to 4 in the adult league for the year 1989
and monitor the situation to see if it makes a difference. Instigate a
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 23
' $100 . 00 eligibility bond for each team, direct staff to verify eligibility
and to notify the players that eligibility may become more restrictive in
the years to come. All voted in favor except Boyt and Watson who opposed
and the motion carried .
Hasek: Sue, I think next year we' re going to zero. I see it coming .
Boyt: I don' t think it should happen in one fell swoop .
' Watson : I 'm going to be real curious to see what significant difference
this makes in those teams so that we know if we went to zero, what we'd
really be opening up.
Hasek: I ' ll bet you it' s going to make a difference . We' ve probably got
one of most legal teams in this league and it ' s going to make a difference
on our team.
Robinson : Could you let us know that?
' Hoffman: I ' ll bring that back to you. I ' ll bring a listing of how many
teams are in each league at this time. It will make an affect. It will
make an affect in our womens league because our womens league is not up to
par as far as having a great deal of Chanhassen people in there . There
are a lot of people but there are a lot of people from outside as well
just to build the league so it will have an affect . Once our
organizational meetings are over and our leagues are underway, I ' ll bring
that back to a meeting .
Mady: We might need to go to a traveling league type concept . A number
of the smaller communities around have done with their over 35 league to
get them all legal so if you only get 2 teams out of Chanhassen , maybe
they can go traveling to Chaska and Excelsior and Victoria .
Hoffman: We shouldn' t have too much of a problem. Our co-rec league
which just started on Friday nights last year with 6 teams , that may be
dumped. It may not go this year because there will not be enough
' residents that want to participate and if that is the case , then Friday
evenings will be open for some of these sports .
Schroers : I think the real answer here , and I hope that this encourages
us to be as expediant as we can with the development of Lake Ann and our
new facilities . Get the work on them and get them going so we can
accommodate.
Sietsema: It just happens to be the next item on the agenda .
REVIEW GRADING PLAN FOR LAKE ANN PARK, LAURIE MCROSTI .
Sietsema: Laurie McRosti is here from OSM to go over the grading plan .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 24 1
Laurie McRosti : Now you' ve decided who ' s playing , we can talk a little '
bit about where you' ll be able to play in a few years anyway. Just to
quickly go over the concept that was approved this summer for Lake Ann.
This side of this drawing shows what' s existing out at Lake Ann. You've II got 3 ballfields out there right now. The lake facility and picnic areas
and that kind of thing . Parking lots and new boat access that was
installed . What' s being planned then for the east side of Lake Ann, the
expansion, are again 3 ballfields . Two soccer fields . One that overlays
the third ballfield . These have all been designed as regulation softball
fields. The 300 foot baselines and they will be able to take all the
regulation leagues . We' re looking at a future entry road . Once TH 5 is II improved, the existing entry to Lake Ann of course will be eliminated. We
had to allow them for a new entry road off of TH 5 or a frontage road
system that MnDot is proposing in this area. It' s an entry road that
would come in here and take this system and then have parking lots , that ' s
an existing park lot, this new 50 space parking lot and another 74 space
parking that feeds off the road here. Then two new parking lots down in
this area as well . Also, in planning for an expansion of a picnic area on
top of the hill . That was then the concept that was approved this summer .
The way that is being actualized then, is through plans and specs that
have been prepared this fall and have been under review by the City
includes four diagrams. Four plan sheets . I ' ll just briefly show you
what those are . One is a location diagram that really you need to be up
close to be able to read. It' s just one that lays out all the fields and
the parking lots and gets them on the ground for a contractor to install .
We also have a landscaping plan. A sheet of details as in the grading
plan that goes along with the specifications . I think the concept of 3
ballfields on the east side of the park being implemented in a similiar I
way to what you already have is one that has worked out very well on the
ground . I think the nature of the landscape was probably pretty similiar
in the existing Lake Ann. What I tried to accomplish was , in effect 11 having the 3 ballfields kind of terraced into the landscape and that was
able to be accomplished. There is one here with the slope between it .
Another one here with a lesser slope separating then the third ballfield . 11 The soccer fields laid in there I think real nicely. I 've got all the
fields are draining at 1 1/2% so they will drain and yet they' ll be nice
and flat to play on. Some things that are also, we' ve got the water
worked out quite nicely I think on the new fields as well . Water
basically is coming off in sheet drainage off of this parking lot and
heading down across these fields or else being picked up in this swale and
then on off the site out to the east and eventually into a drainage pond
that will be at the intersection out here and then eventually into Lake
Susan. There' s minor drainage then that comes basically from this point
down this way and then back into the rest of the park. This plan has been
approved by the Watershed so we' ve got a Watershed permit. The only thing 1
they want to know is when work starts and that kind of thing . One
situation that' s going on is that originally the plan was designed to be
just sheet drainage so we have sheet drainage off all the parking lots and II
off the fields and water would just disipate. We don' t have storm sewer
in this park and it ' s really not very available to even consider it and
that' s why we went with storm drainage. However, we have looked at an
alternative of concrete curb and gutter in some areas of these parking
lots . It' s indicated on here by a double line and basically it' s on that
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 25
11
edge, around all of these little island . It' s along the edges of this
parking lot and around that island as well . Around this island and then
again on the edges of these parking lots . That was mostly for control of
automobiles so that people won ' t be driving off onto the grass. However ,
' working with curb and gutter as well as sheet drainage is almost
contradictory but I think we' ve accomplished that pretty well with leaving
areas of the parking lots on curbs so we still will be able to have sheet
' drainage flow off of that . I think we' ve got a plan that ' s going to work.
If concrete curb and gutter is an alternate bid on the contract and wasn' t
something that was ever in the original cost estimates . We' re not sure
' exactly how the costs will come in on the bid. I know if concrete curb
and gutter is selected, the Watershed does want to know about that and
review again just the drainage that is coming off of these parking lots
and making sure that we' re not channelizing it. However, I feel confident
' that the hydraulogists in our office that ' s looked at this and that we ' re
not doing that anyway even if we do select curb and gutter . We' re not
channelizing water so we shouldn' t have erosion problems . The shaded
' areas along here are areas that we'd like to see sodded as opposed to
seeded . There' s one, you can see them, they' re on the steeper slope.
Primarily the steeper slopes and the drainage swales is where we 'd like to
see sod installed as well as around two rows of sod around the infields
' which is what we' ve got again on all three of the fields . This dashed
line then is erosion control which we ' ve put in various places throughout
the park to keep back any erosion or any of the silt that would occur
' during construction . There ' s one area that something that got added and
that' s a set of timber steps that would be coming from these fields up .
There ' s a pretty good slope that happened right here and we thought it
' would just be more convenient and easier to get up this hill if we
provided some steps basically in this area . The contract reads that these
steps , they' re drawn here but they would actually be sited with the fields
and coordinated with the contract so we get them in the right place but
they' ll start to service the existing shelter and the play area that would
be up on top of this hill up here.
' Schroers : That would probably be because of the shelter on top of the
hill that would be a high traffic area anyway?
Laurie McRosti : Right . That was what we were thinking is that just here
people would be using this hill a lot and hopefully we would cut down on
any of the wear and tear on that hill if we put in some stairs . Basically
we' re limiting construction, I 'm trying to control it as much as possible
and basically put the limits of construction at the edges of grading or at
the edges of the property on the east side. We' re also considering then,
depending on how the costs come in on the bid , installing , we'd like to
' see this project competely done by July 1st , is the way the specifications
read so that the roads and the paving has all been completed by your 4th
of July celebration. However , what we ' ve got over here is a freshly
graded, seeded and planted park and we' re suggesting or hoping that we
would be able to afford to install one of those plastic safety fences
practically the whole length of the park so that people won ' t be going
from existing Lake Ann over into the new park.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 26
Mady: I have a question . On your sheet drainage, do you have any idea
how much water will actually come across the top field, the northern most
field and come all the way through?
Laurie McRosti : Actually I think most , or quite a bit of it is going to
come this way. You've got a swale that starts here so it' s a low area .
It' s subtle but I 'm hoping that we' ll get a majority of the water to not
run off onto this field. '
Mady: Watershed might have a problem if you were to put up a more defined
swale up there to deflect it? ,
Laurie McRosti : No , I don' t think so .
Mady: I guess my concern is that in the heavier rains that we' re going to
make the fields inoperable for a couple of days . Chanhassen has so much
clay and it' s really tough there anyway.
Hasek: What' s happened is that Field #1 and #2, I think that ' s how
they' re number , coming in on the old fields , the lower two on the left
collect an awful lot of water on the infield because the drainage tends to
fall against the sidelines of the ballfield and then flow out and it' s
such a subtle flowage that it doesn ' t happen until you sit there for a, I
don' t know, we spend a lot of time brushing it out of there and I hate to
see these drain the same way. If there ' s anyway that you could capture
that water before it got to the field, that would help . The other thing
is , I guess two comments . One, if there ' s anyway that we can increase the
drainage down and away from the field as quickly as possible, I 'd like to
see that done. If , in your grading plan you would consider the
possibility that maybe at some point in the future we could irrigate these
fields , I think that would be important . We don ' t want to grade them and
then have to regrade them simply because we put water on them. '
Laurie McRosti : I don ' t think that that ' s going to be a problem, if we' re
irrigated. I
Hasek: My last comment , I don ' t know, I can' t see from here how much of a
burden you have on those islands but I think we might be able to decrease
some of the curb. I think the curb is necessary where cars nose in to a
grade but I think maybe on those islands , if we were to berm them high
enough. The concern has to be that the cars don' t leave the parking area
and if it' s high enough where a car' s going to get hung up on it or if II it' s planted , which I don ' t see on that one, that upper one, that might be
another discouragement that might be considered instead of curbing .
Curbing is nice but if it' s not necessary, I 'd like to see it done.
Laurie McRosti : I think we will have some extra material because I know
the soils reports , actually I 've only gotten them over the telephone, I
haven't seen them, recommend that we take away the top soil , or 1 or 2
feet of topsoil underneath this parking lot because it isn ' t stable enough
for a parking lot so we should have some extra material to start to berm.
These are the areas that you ' re talking about . The islands in the parking I
lot separate driveways and that sort of thing .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
' January 24 , 1989 - Page 27
Hasek: The field , the top one up there, does that drain generally down
towards the infield?
Laurie McRosti : What I ' ve done is , because all these two other fields
have, because of the way they were oriented and the way they lay on the
' land , they do drain all out this way. This one basically does drain this
way but there are two swales here that should carry the water away from
the infield .
' Hasek: Is that more appropriate for , I guess what I 'm thinking about is,
our outfield is generally higher than the infield which is kind of nice
for the outfielders . To be able to see down for a change. I think you' re
' going to run into a problem. If you know what' s happening out on the
existing _fields now, I think that ' s kind of what ' s happening on Field #1
and #2. They' ve tried to take it from the infield and push it towards the
outsides rather than letter it all fall to the outfield and get out of the
' infield. Standing water in the outfield is commonplace. To anyone in the
infield , it' s a real pain in the ass and that ' s what you' re trying to, I
think that' s what' s starting to happen on the top field there. If that
could be drawn down, and I don ' t know drainage enough to be able to
comment professionally on it but if it could be accommodated off of the
field without going through the infield or around the infield , it would be
' much more desirable.
Laurie McRosti : I think that ' s what this is . The water should come here,
this is a high point and then it should go this way, down into the lower
areas . We' re fighting the hill this way so it ' s really, I 'm sure there
are other ways. I worked for a long time trying to think of another way
to try to drain this . Since basically the whole thing is going uphill ,
it' s a difficult thing to accomplish, in this one field anyway but I 'm
hoping that that ' s what this will do. Those swales on the outside of the
infield. They go down just a little bit , the water should collect there
and then move on out.
Hasek: What' s the possibility of turning that field just slightly?
Rotating it.
Laurie McRosti : We' re so tight here . I had shifted , this field was even
closer to the shelter than it was now and I think I actually moved it
' already 30 feet this way. What we' ve got is a possibility of a future
road here but at any rate, we've got a boundary line right here. I 've got
this parking lot is set just 50 feet from, I think it still ended up to be
50, from the property line so we could have some sort of landscaping . I
' know there ' s some concern by, gosh the Watershed even mentioned it and
I know City Staff has talked about it, if there is a road here, with
people jumping across just already within that 50 feet and circumventing
' the entry roads and using the parking lot. I got that a minimum of 50
feet between the parking lot and the field and it ' s just not, I think that
there' s a lot happening out here at Lake Ann and it was , to get it all to
' fit in within the parameters was , it definitely was a challenge.
Hasek: Is the road cast in concrete? That' s a future road .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 28
Sietsema : It ' s dedicated .
Laurie McRosti : It' s dedicated right-of-way so it ' s a property line . I
think there' s as much chance that there would be houses backing up to the
park as there will a road , at this point anyway. There ' s going to be road
down here for sure and I would suspect that there will be access or a road
at some point to the park up in this area before there gets to be this
north/south route from here, or one that' s further inland. I don' t think
that anybody knows .
Hasek: Has there been any dedication of parkland out of that particular '
piece of property? Is this part of that dedication?
Sietsema: No . This was an outright purchase . It wasn ' t a dedication. ,
Hasek: So that hasn' t been platted yet next door?
Watson : Eckankar hasn ' t done anything .
Sietsema: They've got a plan in now. They' re not planning to replat or
subdivide. They' re not planning to subdivide so they wouldn' t have a Park II
and Recreation, a park dedication requirement because we have no authority
to go and require a dedication if they' re not subdividing . And if what
they' re proposing goes through, that road would not be there.
Hasek: But what they' re proposing . . .
Sietsema : What they' re proposing is a church right in the middle of the
whole piece and they' re not talking about coming to this boundary at all
but whether that goes through or not is still up in the air . I
Hasek: But if the road is already there, we can still maintain that that
road will stay there?
Sietsema: Yes . It' s dedicated right-of-way. It will be there regardless
of what, unless they want to reconfigure it or petition the City to
abandon it . '
Hasek: So they' re not subdividing their property and because it ' s not a
subdivision that we don' t take dedication or parkland right?
Sietsema : Right . State Statutue only allows us to require park
dedication through the subdivision process .
Mady: They have in the past , somebody with Eckankar has indicated to the
City that they might be willing to let the City acquire for park purposes
or recreation purposes , some amount of land at what they feel their cost
is. We don' t know it' s effect.
Robinson : Do you have an estimate of the cost of this?
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
. January 24, 1989 - Page 29
Laurie McRosti. : The original estimate was coming in around $190, 000 . 00.
At this stage, I guess I don ' t know for sure what the refined cost is . I
know we' ve just been waiting now to hear about , this fence was something
' that was brand new and has just recently been added so there are a couple
of things that haven' t been included or haven' t been able to have been
added to the cost estimate .
Robinson: What' s our dollar limit?
Sietsema : $300, 000. 00.
Mady: That fence is an excellent idea . Just knowing what happens at the
park and I know how fragile that land' s going to be until it' s freshly
' sodded . I think we ' re going to have to do a real teaching process through
the papers , talking to people. When we have our manager ' s meeting this
year with the teams , let them know what ' s happening out here and how much
damage they can do if they don' t really abide by what we' re trying to do
which is to keep people off that space for at least this year .
Schroers: Are you talking about our construction fence? Just an orange
plastic fencing as a barrier or something more substantial like a coated
chainlinked fence?
Laurie McRosti : No, this fence would be temporary. A construction fence .
Hasek: They still make snow fences .
Laurie McRosti. : Yes , but a snow fence . . .
Hasek: What you ' re doing is building nice green grass in what exists as a
bathroom out there right now. I don ' t know that a little plastic fence is
going to keep a ballplayer with 4 or 5 beers in him from going to the
bathroom out there.
Laurie McRosti : I don' t know that a snow fence would do that either .
Schroers: They' re a different thing. If they can rip a plastic fence or
' they can kick the boards out of the snow fence. It ' s 6 and 1 or half of
the other .
' Boyt : What exactly does the $300, 000. 00 go towards besides grading?
Sietsema: The grass, the seed, the backstops , the bases . We have to do
the project to playing condition.
Laurie McRosti : It pays for parking lots . . . I hate to throw out a number
without having this more final but I could say it ' s going to be
' $230, 000. 00 to $250, 000. 00 and that includes the site grading . It
includes the excavation and backfilli.ng again for these roads and parking
lots and bituminous put back on top of that . It includes the final
grading. The sod in these areas , and the sod alone I think, I can' t
remember numbers . I better not talk about cost . Sod is expensive and
we' re sodding actually a pretty big portion of the park. I think it came
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 30 1
out to be about 6 , 000 square yards so that might be about $12, 000. 00 there II
just for sod. Seeding, then the whole park gets seeded. We' re looking at
fence, chainlink fence around , completely around these two fields and only
on the sideline for this field because of the overlay of the soccer field II
that we have. So that gets included . Then of course the backstops behind
each field which there also then is a landscaping plan that is included in
this contract and the landscaping plan is designed , it ' s probably going to '
run maybe about $18 , 000. 00 to $20, 000. 00. It' s going to be really
interesting I think to see how bids come in this year because I think that
in general construction work is down and I think that people are looking
for work. I think everybody' s anticipating bids to be just a little bit
lower. We can always hope for that I guess . What we' ve got is a
landscaping plan that is suggesting the use of Sugar Maples and Green Ash,
some Spruce, some American Lindon and some Amber Maple and some American
Cranberry as the shrubs throughout the park. Originally we had been
looking at doing some planting of trees on the outfield of these parks to
pattern what you have other here . After talking with Dale Anderson the
other day, what we' re going to do, probably not this next fall but maybe
even a full season later is to transplant these 6 inch, I believe they
were Lindon' s .
Hasek: No, they' re Ashes . ,
Laurie McRosti : Okay, they were either Lindon or Ash . These are so
close, they' re 20 feet apart right now, so thin these out and actually put II
them on the outfields of these fields here. So we' re going to wait until
this gets established to the seed and sod. Until it' s really quite a ways
along and then to move these fields over here and I think what that will
do is, the companionship would be the bone for a couple of years but then
you' ll have some large trees . Besides the park will look like it ' s been
there. I
Hasek: As long as they' re moveable. I think we ought to consider the
possibility, now that we understand that they' re moveable because we
talked about that 6 months ago. I think we ought to take them all out of
Field #2 and #3 right now and transplant them into some of the other
fields and maybe leave Field #1 alone for right now. Consider the
possibility in our next budget or recreating Fields #2 and #3 to make them II
• big enough to be State fields and then we will in fact have the largest
and nicest, one of the nicest complexes in this Metropolitan area with
which to have some tournaments and we could start paying for some of these
things through the quality of our ballfields . I think it' s worth
considering . Before we move those trees , think about the possibility of
recreating #2 and #3.
Mady: I know a number of people who come into Lake Ann to play in
tournaments and feel , and they' ve been to a lot of softball fields, feel
Lake Ann is probably one of the nicest parks in the metropolitan area .
It' s just small . That' s the only problem we have and that will just make
it a nicer park. It' s a jewell . It really is .
Hasek: It' s something to think about I think. I know there' s cost '
involved with moving the fence and recreating the outfield and some of the
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 31
' things involved there but for maybe just a little bit of cost , we might
have actually 6 useable fields out there for tournaments and that' s enough
for one heck of a decent tournament . State tournament could be held here .
Boyt: Is there anyway we've got any bleacher type for the soccer fields?
The soccer field on the east , can we put some bleachers in there?
Laurie McRosti : You mean an actual structure?
Boyt : Yes , something . We need some amenities for the parents watching
their kids.
Laurie McRosti : One thing we' ve got are some slopes that are starting to
' happen. To buy bleachers that you could just set out there, I don' t know
if you want to be permanent but I think that ' s something that could be
separate.
Boyt : Do the slopes work there?
Laurie McRosti : Yes . Particularly this one does . I think you should be
able to sit away a little bit and maybe you can see this one better . This
one does actually. You could sit here and watch but when there ' s
softball , maybe it' s not going to work. If they' re playing at the same
time.
Mady: You' re out a good 320 feet . Not too many of us that hit the ball
that far anymore.
Schroers : Are all 3 of those outfields?
Laurie McRosti : All 3 of them are 300 feet .
Robinson : Can we talk about the cost again for a minute and I realize
you' re guessing but I 'm concerned, if the $300, 000. 00 will give us a
complete set-up there .
Laurie McRosti. : I think we should . I think there ' s some things that have
' been included as alternate bids . The concrete curb and gutter for
instance . That might be something that will have to be dropped off .
However, I know that the grading will be able to be accomplished. The
seeding and the sodding . I think that the planting would be. I 'm sure
11 that the fencing you' ll be able to put up and I know for sure that the
parking lots and the roads will be able to be put in . We' re looking at,
this safety fence, I haven ' t been able to get costs on that yet and I
' don ' t know how much that ' s , you' ll be putting in almost 2, 000 feet of it .
All those things just add up.
Hasek: The construction of the infields and the bases and all of that is
included?
Laurie McRosti : I should say the construction of the infield , A-1
infields will be there. This contract does not included the purchase of
bases .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
IIJanuary 24 , 1989 - Page 32
II
Boyt : Are bleachers considered incidental?
I Sietsema: Yes. If you ' re talking about the portable kind like we have up
here .
I Boyt : You know the hill is nice but when you watch soccer , you don ' t sit
at the end of the field, you sit at the 50 yard line like in football to
see the game . So you' re going to need something there and I don' t know
Iwhere it goes into the budget .
Sietsema: I think if we can ' t work the figures with that, that' s
definitely something that could come out of the CIP because the actually
11 play on those will be 2 years down the line.
Laurie McRosti : I think that you will have a park that' s constructed and
IIbe able to use it. The fields will be fenced . That kind of thing .
Things kind of like accessories aren' t in this contract.
Robinson : When you said completed by July 1st , is that just the grading
IIor will the seeding be done and the parking lots and surface? All that?
Laurie McRosti : The parking lot should be able to be used . The only
IIproblem will be controlling people walking across .
Robinson : That ' s assuming , we' ve got to move on that quite fast .
IILaurie McRosti : I think we' ve got enough time. I haven' t anticipated
that this should be done in 2 months .
IIBoyt: It' s supposed to be another dry year isn' t it?
Robinson : Yes .
IIWatson: And they' ll all be out there watering the sod .
II Hasek: That' s a good question. Water. Is that a part of the sod and
seed , the maintenance of that in a dry season or how is that being
handled?
I Laurie McRosti : The sod and seed is maintained until it is determined as
established so that means the sod has to be growing. Either the City
Engineers or myself or someone who makes that determination actually
1 •written into the specs, how many little seeds per square inch . There' s
got to be 15 sprouts in this square inch for us to consider seeds to have
become established. If it' s not established, they have to redo it. Those
IIkinds of things could interfere with the July 1st but that ' s pretty
standard. Then the contractor maintains it until it' s established and
then the City has to take over maintenance.
11 Hasek : But the only thing that maybe won' t be done, the grading to be
bid, the only thing that might not happen is the release on the seeding
and the sodding contract?
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 33
Laurie McRosti : Right , or if the warranty for plant materials for a year ,
for instance. Council hopefully will approve this , the contracts as plans
and specs on the 13th of February. I believe it was March 3rd where we
would open bids actually. We would advertise for bids 3 weeks in
February. The Thursday and Friday right after Council approves it , it
should go out for advertising so I would say by the end of March the City
would have negotiated a contract and that somebody would be ready to go on
it.
Hasek: If we' re entering into another dry season, would it be reasonable
to ask for another year of guarantee of plant materials or is it your . . .
Laurie McRosti : Actually that ' s something that we just did . Plant
materials have been warrantied for one year . Then if they haven' t made
it , they have to replace them and we ' re asking for a warranty on those
replacement trees for one more year. After that however, they have to
' replace them if they don ' t make it for another year but they' re warrantied
for up to a third year .
Schroers : Something that keeps coming up is that we would like to be able
to use Lake Ann for meeting or events other than softball , like the 4th of
July. With your plan , do you feel the entrance and the exit would
accommodate that type of an event? Where we ' re going to have a lot of
people coming in and going out at the same time?
Laurie McRosti : I think that until something happens in the future, that
this access onto TH 5, is going to be congested if you have a huge event.
I think you even have that problem now.
Schroers : On your plan, does it remain as it exists right now or have you
done anything?
Laurie McRosti : Until TH 5 is improved , until MnDot improves TH 5, this
' entrance stays the same and there really is nothing that we can do about
it. I think by 1992 , TH 5 should be improved up to this point and it' s
possible at that point we can start to consider looking to the change in
' access here . There' s also an allowance for a second access off of this
parking lot up here. That' s something that' s not going to happen though
until whatever Eckankar does over here is decided . So in the future , I
think there' s an opportunity, if the City desires , to see 2 entrances and
exits into this park. There ' s been a lot of talk about a fee that ' s
charged right now and so one entrance in is desirable because you can
control it . There' s also been talk maybe at sometime in the future of not
' having a user fee for Lake Ann. That opens up other exits . Maybe there
are two gates .
Schroers : But the option on the second entrance is totally dependent on
what Eckankar decides to do with it?
Laurie McRosti : Do you mean this one?
Schroers: Yes .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 34
Laurie McRosti : In some ways it ' s totally dependent. I guess if this
road gets built, we' ve got it right then. I know that there' s been a lot
of talk of maybe some internal circulation with something coming from the
east . This is a big piece of property and there' s going to be more than
one access point and I think the City is in control of reviewing plans and
' they know what we' ve got here and they want to see a road here. I think
there are ways of working with those folks that can assure that we've got
this access point in the future . But until MnDot does update and upgrade
I TH 5, I think there might always be some, people are going to have to be
patient.
Hoffman : I guess one question , again which I brought up the last time
I when the first plan was brought in is the layover on the soccer field.
Does the Commission feel that that ' s going to be a conflicting use? That
we' re not going to have an outfield fence on a ballfield and what are the
Iplayers going to think about playing on a field with no outfield fence?
Hasek: The one suggestion I had when I saw that, and I 'm glad you brought
up again , is I have seen fields, in fact we built a few when I was on the
II
Park Commission out in Mound. Out in Island Park we built one that had
the trail . It was like a warning track around the outside. We had a
trail that was going through the park and we simply tied it into the
warning track. Make it a little bit , for a little bit of conflict , if a
biker wanted to go down that trail and there' s a ball game going on but
any ball which rolled beyond that line was then out of bounds . Or if it
II landed beyond that line was a home run. I guess it was a line. It was
something to consider as opposed to having nothing there and the ball
rolling forever . I don' t think a line across the soccer field would
necessarily deter or detract from the soccer game so that might be one
IIconsiderable.
Boyt : Is it possible to even consider paint?
IIHasek: Paint is a possibility but it' s pretty hard for a ball player to
realize where he' s standing . If it' s a painted line, there ' s not a lot of
tactile feeling to a piece of paint on grass but for a warning track,
there' s something that you feel and you realize.
Schroers: I 'm having a second thought, I 'm wondering here if the
' Commission and staff feels like we couldn ' t be missing the boat by not
making one of those fields Little League or to accommodate youth?
II Mady: We already have. Number one is Little League and hopefully within
3 years , we' ll have constructed a south park. We have the money to buy
the south park. Through the Army Corps of Engineers Reserve, we can get a
lot of the grading done for next to nothing so as long as we can site that
II this year and start the planning process , get those people in , within a
couple years we can do that .
Boyt : That' s at least 3 years before it ' s. . .
Mady: But that ' s what we told everybody in the referendum was 3 years.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 35
II
' Boyt : That' s what Larry is saying . Is one enough?
Schroers: I think what we' re doing is we' re giving them Field #1 now
right?
Mady: I thought we were telling them, when we put this up, we' re telling
them you ' re going to have two fields out there.
Hoffman : Yes . Basically the two smaller fields could be developed in-
house for potentially a Babe Ruth league and a Little League field and
that would still expand the adult leagues to 4 fields and we'd have 2
interim fields for the youth to play on.
Mady: They won' t have dugouts right away but if they can ' t play without
dugouts for a couple years .
' Hasek : Do those 2 fields qualify?
Hoffman: Yes .
Hasek : Are they too big?
Hoffman : You can restrict the fence . For our leagues that exist here now
aren' t into the exact specifications of what a Little League field is .
They' ll go ahead and play on a field that ' s got a fence farther than the
outfielders stand in but again, to get back to her issue on the soccer .
' That field , a line would possibly work but again , then at the same time we
mentioned possibly having 6 nice fields which are used for a State
tournament. State tournament specifications say, an outfield fence at
this distance of this height. That' s a minor area.
Mady: We can put a fence up . After we have our south park, we can put
the fence up here. For a few thousand dollars, we'd have it .
Hasek: You could conceiveably, if you really wanted to do that and have
something that you wanted to do, you could set slip posts in the ground
for poles and it could be a fence that could be rolled up and used only
for a special event where you have the requirement because the slip posts
in the ground would cost nothing and they could be covered up and dug out ,
actually you can screw a cap on the things so they could be underneath the
11 soccer field and just sitting there waiting .
Laurie McRosti : It was my understanding, I couldn ' t go on about that, but
that this soccer field was something that was temporary until the south
park or until a more established , maybe temporary is kind of a lose term
for 3 to 5 years but it wouldn' t be here forever .
Mady: On the warning track used as a trail , it reminds me of something
which is having a separate trail actually from what exists as the Lake Ann
trail now on TH 5 down towards to the beach . We don' t have a way of
' getting kids on their bikes down to Lake Ann Park once they arrive on that
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
1
January 24 , 1989 - Page 36 II
narrow road . Have we taken that into account here in any way, shape or
form?
Laurie McRosti : No . I think it would still be the same. The same access
point. I do know that maybe there' s something that should be looked at in
the existing part of the park for the future , particularly when the trail
is upgraded and rebuilt once TH 5 is done, that that would be, that ' s a
good suggestion . That would be looked at as something more permanent . ,
Schroers: At the present time that trail does not have a lot of use.
Mady: A lot of people won ' t allow their kids to ride on the road to get
there.
Laurie McRosti : I think once it' s upgraded , sometimes you can ' t even see '
that trail up there so I can see why it' s not used very much but I think
in the future it would be. At that time you might want to consider even
implementing much more of a trail system. ,
Robinson : Any further questions or comments?
Mady: I move to recommend the plans be approved as shown. 1
Schroers : I ' ll second it.
11
Mady moved , Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to approve the grading plan for Lake Ann Park Expansion Project
as presented by staff . All voted in favor and the motion carried .
COMMISSION CANDIDATE INTERVIEW, RICHARD MINGO. '
Robinson : I apologize for the wait Richard . We' re about an hour behind I
believe. ,
Richard Mingo : I guess to speed up matters , I guess I want to throw out
one quick point is that we may not have to worry about question 2, 3 , 4 .
The reason I asked to come in early is I 'm leaving tomorrow morning for
Arizona for two ,months and I do this every winter so if that would be a
problem that two months out of the year would make me an unlikely
candidate, I want to tell you that right now. I ' ll just step out of here
and not waste your time here.
Mady: Lori , what ' s the City' s standard on that? We do have a standard on ,
it.
Richard Mingo : I looked at that . There' s some percentage. ,
Sietsema: You ' re required to attend 75% of the scheduled meetings which
would be 24 meetings .
Mady: As long as you make all the two others .
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Park and Recreation i Meeting
.sszon Me,.ting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 37
Richard Mingo : I just wanted to throw that our very quickly because that
could be a major falling point.
Sietsema: Would you like to proceed then? The first question has to do
with the commitment of time, and as we just discussed, there are 24
meetings . Two meetings a month that we have scheduled . There are other
times during the year , particularly in the summer when we may meet more
often to go out to visit different sites . To tour the park. To come in
early before meetings so that we can go out to different sites . I know
there were two different months in the past summer where we did have 3 to
4 meetings in one month. So the question is, do you feel you have the
time to make the time commitment that ' s involved?
Richard Mingo: Definitely. I 'm retired so I 'm a lot of times available
and at the present time I have no other sideline job other than as a
substitute teacher occasionally at the local high school .
iSietsema : The next question is , the Park and Recreation Commission would
like you to elaborate on what your impression of the current park and
recreation system is and what do you feel you can add? What kind of
expertise or knowledge do you have that can benefit the City in this area?
Richard Mingo : I think you' ve got a great start on parks . Being a former
baseball coach for 30 years, I would like to see the baseball program
expand and I heard the lady here ask something about Little League
baseball . I guess you talked about having great parks. I always look at
the prime park anywhere in probably the nation sitting right over in
Braemar Park. They' re set up with 4 fields with a beautiful stand built.
The pressbox could be improved but they' ve got that big beautiful baseball
park. They' ve got Little League. Babe Ruth and the one softball field
there all within that layout . Just a beautiful set-up so at sometime in
the future, and I don' t know much about your south parkland but I would
hope to see Chanhassen seriously consider upgrading their baseball set-up
including sometime building a grandstand at one of those parks so they
would hold some baseball tournaments in this community. Also , I guess one
of my other things that I would like to see this community look forward to
because we' re going to need it. We ' re growing very rapidly. I wish we
could get our own local golf course going . I think we've got one just
south of us that might be available at some time in the future or very
11 As future. We should begin grabbing it before it becomes too expensive.
As far as when you asked me the other thing about expertise?
Sietsema: Yes .
Richard Mingo : I was a high school coach for 30 years . I retired here 2
years ago from Bloomington Jefferson High School . I played amateur
baseball around the State until I was 39 years old . For a long time I
played here in Chanhassen up until the tale end of 1952 and the tale end
of 1954 after I got out of the service . Played here several years and
played in Waconia. Managed their team. I came back here and managed the
town baseball team. I was one of the three guys that built the baseball
field you see sitting over by the present Legion. In fact I helped moved
I
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 38
the original park which was at St . Hubert ' s school . We moved it down
where Brown' s station is now. Then TH 5 came though and we had to move it
again across the road and build a smaller ballpark and being a left hand
hitter , you probably noticed I made a real short right field fence. I was II
involved and there were only 3 of us that really built that ballpark.
That 's why I hear $190, 000. 00 and I think, christ there were just 3 of us
with a farming tractor and a grader and we built that park by ourselves.
We didn' t do that bad a job I didn' t think except we didn' t have much '
money. I 've worked with that. I currently run the Lion' s High School All
Star baseball tournament. In fact, I helped to originate it that we put
on every year . Last year I was also the tournament director for the
Region 6 AA High School baseball tournament so I 've been very active in
athletics . I played on a fast pitch softball in the Minneapolis Classic
League back in the early 50' s. Before then, the sport kind of
disappeared . Everybody went to the old man ' s game and started playing
that slow pitch so I 've been involved in that. I was one of the first
guys in the area to ever put on slow pitch tournaments . In fact, I ' ve put
on a number of them here in Chanhassen. Several in Waconia back when ,
tournaments were kind of unheard of and raised some real good money for
our town baseball teams in both communities. I was familiar with that
particular sport too . I refereed high school basketball for quite a few
years and high school football as well as coaching those sports for a few
years .
Sietsema: What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation I
Commission?
Richard Mingo : I guess there' s a lot of ramifications to that . Obviously II
one of the things is to develop an excellent recreational program for your
community to be used , primarily I think by community residents . I 'm
interested in your softball quandry here and they may have that in all
communities but again , I think your city parks should be for local
residents primarily with some exceptions . Even in the old days , our old
amateur baseball leagues , we had 3 categories . One league you couldn ' t
have any outsiders . That was the old days with Class B. Class A ball you II
could have 3 outsiders from 15 miles away or further and then AA you could
have unlimited number .
Sietsema: What are your feelings regarding conservation and environment '
within the City of Chanhassen?
Richard Mingo : Having taught environmental studies at Bloomington ,
Jefferson High School and in Bloomington Lincoln, we were one of the only
schools in the State of Minnesota that taught a full year ' s course on the
subject. I think I 'm fairly well versed in this subject and I guess in
real short order I could say I really believe truly in most environmental
facets . Whether you' re talking about conservation of water, conservation
of soil , forestry conservation. Whatever phase of conservation you might
be concerned with.
Sietsema : And the last question is , we'd like you to please elaborate on
why you wish to serve on the Park and Recreation Commission. I
I
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 39
Richard Mingo : I guess since I am retired , I ' ve always been very much
interested in the recreational activities . Not only from the sporting
aspect but as far as wildlife issues and that type of thing is concerned .
I feel now being retired, especially since I 'm no longer actively
coaching , that I ' ve got time to devote to that type of thing . Having
lived in Chanhassen since 1957, why I 'm very much interested in this
Icommuni.ty.
Mady: I wanted to ask on number 5. Lori ' s question , I think what he was
getting on the conservation and environment, one of the things I wanted to
know about was your thoughts on active parkland versus passive parkland .
Active playfields versus just nature. . .
Richard Mingo : I think you have to hit a happy medium on this . I really
thing there should be some area set aside too in open. We' ve got rather
strict guidelines on a lot of us today as far as wetlands , etc . as to how
we use them. Anytime you' re going to start a housing project, there' s
concerns over that but I 'm also very much interested in seeing that there
would be some passive land set aside. Because the community is starting
to grow very rapidly, I think it would be very wise that we start looking
at that and start setting some of these parcels of land aside now rather
than wait anymore . The developers get in and gobble them up and leave us
with nothing. I guess St. Louis Park would be one of the greatest
examples that we could find where their land was virtually devoured before
they had a chance to develop it. I know they' ve got some parks they
built , but they were really digging to find spots along railroad
right-of-way, etc. even to find any land for active parks . I hate to see
that type of thing happen . I have a feeling that we should be concerned
with both. I know we need more active. As I mentioned, I 'd be very much
interested in seeing us develop a city golf course . But on the other
hand, I think we should also have some passive areas . We' re very
fortunate of course in having the Arboretum out here which is a fantastic
place as far as being a passive environment .
Robinson: Any other questions? Thanks very much.
Sietsema : I would like to make one comment here. Originally I had
scheduled the Commission' s criteria for the City Council meeting last
night and the other commission' s had not had their criteria ready for that
meeting at that time so it was pulled off of the agenda . Councilman Boyt
put it back on because he knew that the Commission had worked hard on
putting the criteria together and thought that you should have Council ' s
comments on it. What was discussed last night is that it seems that the
Council feels that they should still be interviewing candidates and what
they would like us to do is narrow the process down to I think it was 2 or
3 people per position and make a recommendation. Instead of them
interviewing all 13 applicants, it would be 2 or 3 people per position .
So we would be recommending that they interview between 4 and 6 people.
That was basically the gist of their comments . That was all that I wrote
down. But they thought that the criteria was good as far as I could tell .
Schroers: Before we ask her back in, I don ' t know how the rest of you are
doing this or what you' re using as a guideline to make an evaluation but I
I
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 40
just , on my own, use the 1 to 10 score. You go 1 to 10 on the questions , II
total it and then come up with the score. I think that' s a pretty fair
and reasonable. I don' t know, do you want to elaborate on it? Do you
want to discuss anything further? '
Mady: I don ' t think so . It' s hard to make a discussion.
Schroers: As far as I knew, we didn' t have anything established and we ,
need to have some sort of a system for evaluating .
Boyt: I don' t think we should discuss until after we' ve interviewed
everyone .
Sietsema: I don ' t think you should agree on what your rating for each
question is .
Mady: I think each one of us is going to have to rank all the candidates
and then we' ll combine them. ,
Schroers : That ' s what I 'm talking about .
Mady: Build your own listing and we' ll list them out and we' ll rank them II
1 to 13 . The one with the fewest number of points is the lead candidate
and the one with the next fewest . . .
Robinson : But will we discuss?
Mady: We will at the end . I think at the end we need to discuss the
merits of each one in case each one of us misses something. You can then
have the opportunity to rerank. Then once that' s done, we' ll put their
names up and we' ll put our names down.
Boyt : I think we should talk about discussing after we interview
everyone. We need some time to discuss .
Hasek: After each candidate . _ I/
Boyt: No, after we hit all of them. '
Sietsema : The schedule for interviews goes from 7 : 00 until 10: 10 and then
you discuss after that.
Boyt : With pizza . Isn' t that what we said?
Mady: Dominoes delivers . 1
Sietsema: That ' s right , I did say that . Now Richard just drops out so
that pushes it up.
Boyt : Is that 10 minutes for each person?
Sietsema: Yes. Oh, there' s 5 minutes inbetween. That ' s right .
1
11 Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 41
Mady: That ' s good you have some loose time because I mean , I asked a
question. Some clarification.
Watson : Of course you did.
Mady: We' re interviewing here . We' re supposed to ask .
Boyt: But not too many. We' ve got our questions .
Watson : We have some criteria here but very little ad libbing .
Mady: I just asked for clarification on one question.
REVIEW PARK DEDICATION FEE SCHEDULE.
Sietsema: I assume you ' re all totally confused now on the park
dedication .
Robinson: Yes .
Mady: I have my feelings and thoughts . It ' s a 100 page packet on this
one.
Sietsema: I just want to impress upon all of us , we know how much time
we' ve spent on this and I wanted to give the opportunity to review all the
phases that we' ve been through because we went through most of this
discussion last year . I know that I brought up the idea of changing our
standard last time from 1 per 75 to 1 per 50 but in researching that
further and working out the numbers , it appeared that it was quite a
taking . It was quite a high requirement when it came down to what the
land was. I called Roger just informally and asked him if he thought the
15% to 19% was reasonable. He said he definitely would begin to question.
We would definitely become less defendable unless we came up with some
really good reasons . When 10% is what has been upheld in the courts , 15%
to 19% is a little bit more difficult to defend to say the least. Don and
I sat down and we looked at this and what we realized is that the place
' that we really have the problem is when we are not able to obtain the
property within the subdivision process . Similar to Pheasant Hills where
they came in with a subdivision and the property was rolling and we said
this one is not suitable for active park needs , we' ll acquire something
11 else. Where in reality, the park dedication fee did not equal to what we
can actually go out and purchase property for . That ' s where we really
have the problem so what we came up with is basing the fee on the average
raw land value that we get from the County Assessor which is $10, 500. 00 an
acre. In cases where the land in the subdivision is more than that, we
can require in a typical urban development where the density is 2 to 4
lots per acre, we would require 11% of the price per acre for our park
dedication fee .
Hasek: Of the raw land?
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 42
Sietsema: Of the raw land value . Before the streets and the utilities go
in. So if they purchased the property for $15, 000. 00 an acre, the park
dedication fee then goes up to $589 . 00 per unit is what it would break out
to be.
Robinson : Will you always be able to determine the land value?
Sietsema: We can request that the developer provide us with that
information .
Mady: What if it' s a farmer who ' s lived on the land for 15-30 years . He
got it from his father in his will and he' s now going to divide it
himself.
Watson : Like Mr . Steller ' s land for instance when he divided that up. He
had owned that land for ever and ever . The raw land value at that point
was what he could sell it for .
Boyt : We also had someone sold land to his friend so and so and he sold 1
it back to him.
Hasek: That ' s the trick. Right there' s the trick that I was thinking of. II
How you could buy and sell the land, if you base it on a percentage, where
we could take it in the shorts and that would be the situation. But it
seems to me, if we base it on the percentage, which is fine with me, but
if we had our own assessor assess the value of the land or if we hired an
assessor, if there was a discrepancy.
Sietsema: A land appraiser? ,
Hasek : Yes . Could we do a land appraisal and use that as opposed to what
we are being told the land sold for? Then we would have an appraisal , a
Legal appraisal that we could take into court if the developer decided to
dispute it.
Robinson : But you' re almost defeating the purpose then . Then you ' re '
really getting into some administration.
Boyt : Maybe you could require an appraisal . '
Hasek: But an appraisal , you can get an appraisal for a very decent cost .
Especially if we determine that they' re paying what a third of what we
should be getting on a very large tract of land, the appraisal would . . .
Sietsema: An appraisal would cost approximately the cost of one unit , one
park dedication fee. The appraisal we just had for the Carrico property
was $350 . 00.
Hasek: How big was that piece of property? ,
Sietsema: 16 acres .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 43
Hasek: But it doesn ' t go , the appraisal doesn ' t necessarily follow the
size of the land . It ' s the difficulty in putting it together that
counts . It could be a 200 acre of land and only cost us $500. 00 to have
that done which would basically be one unit. But then we 'd have something
legal to tie it to .
Watson : But how do we decide about this appraisal?
IBoyt: We know approximately how much land goes for north of the MUSA
and . . .
Watson : But I mean , it ' s going to be kind of a judgment call . We' ll
request an appraisal on some property and we won' t get an appraisal on
other property?
Hasek: Sure. Why not?
Mady: I think we ' re being to an administrative nightmare here . I think
we all know that we' re way too low. We know what property is going for .
We' ve had different developers coming here in the last 6 months .
Minnewashta, that guy said if he could buy any land around Lake
Minnewashta for $15, 000. 00 an acre , he was getting a steal . The Carrico
land we know was worth more than $15, 000. 00 an acre if it' s buildable. We
know what Eckankar , 8 to 10 years ago , whenever they bought their
property. They paid on an average of almost $15, 000. 00 an acre.
Hasek: So what are you saying?
Mady: We know that $10, 500. 00 is garbage. That might be great for a bare
farmland outside the MUSA line but I don' t think the County Assessor is
accurate for what ' s going up here in developable single family unit
property. I think it ' s so far out it' s unbelieveable . I think it ' s up to
us to set what we feel our standard is and that' s what it is . If a
developer can show that it' s not reasonable, then we modify it . We put
that in the ordinance. Give us that leeway. But we set the standards .
Hasek : That ' s backwards . That' s exactly backwards.
Mady: But we set the standards .
Hasek: Let ' s set the standards, if that ' s the case , then let ' s set the
standard at $2,000. 00. You can' t make them take us to court for it .
That ' s what you' re asking them to do.
Mady: No, what I 'm really saying is we know what ' s reasonable. We know
what the land is going for . We know it ' s $15 , 000 . 00 an acre.
I Hasek: No, we' re being told that it ' s $10, 500. 00 by the Assessor .
Mady: We know that ' s not right .
Hasek: No . We don ' t know that. I don ' t know that . I think that that ' s
wrong. I 'm not an appraiser . I don' t know that that ' s wrong. What we
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 44
should be doing is to try and come up with a way that we can defend
ourselves . The only reason I 'm saying that is because there are so many
communities out there that are extracting an extra pound of flesh from
developers simply because they know that the developer is not going to II take them to court . The City of Chanhassen I 've seen do it as well . They
know that they can push the buttoms to get what they want just a little
bit more and I think from working both sides of the fence as I do in my
profession from the City standpoint and from the developer ' s standpoint, I II
think that ' s an atrocity. I think if there' s a way that we can tie it
down so that it' s legal and justifiable, that' s what we ought to be doing .
Boyt : And fair . I
Hasek: And fair . It ought to be fair to the City. It ought to be fair
to the developer. And if we can do that somehow, that' s the way it ought
to be done . The percentage is , I think the fairest way of doing that . If
we have to, if we think, as you' re saying that a piece of property is
being misrepresented to us and our portion of that dedication is too low,
then it' s, I think equally our responsibility and our legal obligation to
prove the developer wrong as much as it is for a developer to prove us
wrong . What we ' re saying by taking a percentage is , this is what we want .
It's in our ordinance.
Boyt : We have a base here of $10, 500 . 00 so if someone comes in and says ,
oh but I only paid $6, 000. 00 an acre. We have a base to say, well , we' re
going to contest that .
Hasek : We ' re not going to contest it because that ' s the base that we ' re
working with right here so we' ve saying no, I 'm sorry, you might have
bought it for that but we' re basing it on this . At that point , he has to
prove to us that he paid less for the land and it ' s worth less than what
our base says . But it also doesn ' t lock us into this being the minimum at
all , or the maximum. If we feel that somebody is buying a chunk of land
on Lake Minnewashta and is paying $30, 000. 00 an acre for it and he ' s
telling us he' s only paying $15, 000.00 or $20, 000. 00 for it, then we have
1/
at least a vehicle with which we can go to our appraisal and say no , our
appraisal is what we' re basing it on. If you want to bring in another
appraisal that will show that you paid less for this land or that this
land is worth less than what our appraiser it ' s for , then there' s
something that can be contested but he ' s going to have to contest us at
that point. If it' s in the ordinance that we' re going to ask for an
appraisal if we feel that it ' s being misrepresented , that ' s our vehicle
and it' s up to him to disprove us at that point. I think that' s a fair
and legal way of handling it.
Boyt: Work with a straight percentage?
Hasek: Yes . It ' s something I hadn ' t throught about doing before but it ' s
really what we used from the beginning to figure out how we were going to
get to a number was a percent of land necessary to serve the people. The
percent of the value of the land and then you always try to put a number
on it . This way we' re not . We' re putting a percentage on it and the
number can float.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
' January 24 , 1989 - Page 45
Mady: Who determines the number? That ' s what I 'm saying . 11% but we
don' t know the value of the land. We never do know the value of the land.
' I know $10, 500 . 00 is wrong .
Boyt : We' re not going to set the number . Isn ' t it going to change each
time?
Mady: But we never know that number . Who knows it?
Hasek: That' s what I 'm saying. It doesn' t have to Jim. One guy can come
in here and have a Bill of Sale on his property and he paid $8 , 000 . 00 or
$9 , 000. 00 for it. Our judgment then is, well, okay, we' ve got a base
price of $10, 500. 00 and that' s the rate that we' re going to charge you at.
If he contests that, he will have to disprove our base number . It' s up to
him at that point to prove us wrong . Alright , conversely, a guy comes in
and tells us that he' s paying $10, 500. 00 for a piece of property and we
have reasonable doubt that that ' s an accurate number . We think that it' s
much higher than that so we can kick in the ordinance. We can go in and
get an appraisal for the land . The appraisal comes back and says , that
land is worth $20,000. 00 an acre. We' re going to base our fees on
$20, 000. 00 an acre . He says you ' re way off base . I didn' t pay that for
the land. Here' s the bill and receipt and we' re going to say, well , then
it' s necessary for you either to take us to court to say that our
appraisal is wrong. We' ve got a legal appraisal . We' ve got somebody that
will stand behind it, or he can go out and get another appraisal that says
that no, this is way off . $12, 000. 00 is the most this guy paid. He might
say he paid $10, 500. 00. It' s worth $12 , 000 . 00. Then it ' s up to us to
decide. Are we going to take the $12, 000. 00 or are we going to stand by
our appraisal?
Mady: Lori , who did the Carrico appraisal?
Sietsema: Bud Andrus .
IMady: The back part of his appraisal , I ' ve seen a couple and they always
say the same, for $350. 00 he' s not going to go to court to defend his
appraisal because he didn ' t do everything that he had to . He said that.
Sietsema: No, he said that the $350. 00 did not include his fees if he
were required to go to court to defend his appraisal . We would have to
pay his additional fees if he was required to go to court .
Hasek: He would go out of business if he did that .
Mady: I thought, I don' t know, I ' ve seen them where they simply won' t,
this is what their gut feeling is but if you want a defensible position ,
11 he' s going to have to spend a lot more time .
Hasek: Yes , but then that will come. He' s given the appraisal . The
basis of his appraisal has to be accurate or he doesn ' t work. That ' s the
law. It ' s no different than anybody else telling you that your engine is
going to blow up tomorrow knowing darn well what you need is a gasket in
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
•
January 24 , 1989 - Page 46
it. You go in there and prove them wrong , this gas station closes down.
He's in exactly the same boat. He's putting his profession on the line
when he publishes that document . Now it may cost us more to ask him to go
to court to defend that thing because he' s got to go out and he may have
to get some more information. God knows what' s involved in that. That ' s
true.
Sietsema: His says , I have no personal interest or bias with respect to
his subject property. It is understood that I will not be required to
give testimony or appear in Court by reason of this estimate of value
unless prior arrangements are made. So what he' s saying is that what he
did . . .
Mady: . . .administratively, we get 3, 4 , 5 developers in here a month.
Minimum. How are we going to set the fee?
Sietsema: It' s $425. 00 unless . . .
Mady: But we' ve shown, we all feel that that is way too low. We can ' t
buy the property for $425. 00. You can' t .
Sietsema: But not everybody is going to run around and do a little ,
swi.tcharoo on their Bill of Sale.
Mady: What we' re saying here is , how are we going to , it ' s always going
to be $425. 00 an acre. How it ' s going to be more?
Sietsema : If the Bill of Sale is more than $10 , 500 . 00 an acre .
Mady: I guess I have a problem with $10, 500. 00. Most of the land that' s
being developed here by local residents how have owned it forever .
Boyt: We can' t come up with that number on our own though. We have to go
to a responsible source to get that number to start with I think.
Mady: So you ' re talking about 5 times a month we' re going to have to have
a local appraisal done .
Hasek: No. Why would that be? I
Mady: I have a real problem with this . We only have two staff people
here in the staff department. Now we' re going to have to put an appraiser
on the staff . This City is growing .
Sietsema : I called other cities to find out how they determine theirs .
Most cities do go by the percentage of the raw land value. And I asked
them, how do you come up with an average raw land value and most of the
cities have a City Assesser on staff . It' s determined by the City
Asseser what the average raw land value is . We don ' t have a City Assesser
so we have to fall back on the County or we can have, every year we could
hire somebody to appraise the value of all the land left in the city.
11
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 47
Robinson : Do they use a dollar amount or a percentage then? Most of the
other cities?
Sietsema: They say what the average raw land value is and then they take
a percentage of that number and it' s a set figure. So in Eden Prairie
this year it ' s $725 . 00.
Mady: And we' re a lot closer to Eden Prairie is in our MUSA line .
Robinson: So nobody has done what you' re proposing in a percentage?
Sietsema: Not on a sliding scale. Not that I 'm aware of.
Robinson: I wonder why that is .
Mady: It ' s an administrative nightmare .
Hasek: Is it an adminstrative nightmare or have they just simply decided
that it was a number that they could live with? You ' re talking about
people who' s got some pretty high numbers out there. By what she' s
' telling us , the simple fact is , if you take 15% to 19% like some of the
cities are taking down and you go to court with it, you' re going to lose.
What those cities are saying is , we' re betting Mr . Developer that you' re
not going to spend the money to take us to court so we ' re going to hold
you up right here one more time and we ' re going to take this extra fee and
we' re betting that you ' re not going to take us to court on this . That' s
really what they' re saying and they' re getting away with it .
Mady: I 'm not saying that we do that . What I 'm saying is that the
County Assesser is wrong . In my opinion he ' s wrong at $10, 500. 00.
Hasek : But, what is your more than my professional ability to say that
he ' s wrong other than a gut feeling?
Mady: We' ve got people who are buying land who are coming in and telling
us that $15, 000. 00 is a steal for raw land .
Hasek: So then if that guy buys land within the City and brings a receipt
into us for the land, then he' s going to pay us what he actually paid for
by the system that we ' ve got set up? What we' re saying here is that this
is a minimum amount that they' re going to take from you. The land costs
more than , we' re going to take more than that .
Robinson: How old is the $10, 500. 00 number?
Hasek: Last year .
Sietsema : Last year we raised it .
Mady: Yeah, we raised it about $10. 00. It goes back to like 1980. I
remember reading the Minutes. Mike said he can ' t remember it going up.
Sietsema : It was raised in 1982 .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 48
Mady: Okay, land ' s gone up in 7 years . Developable land . Farm land ,
might not have. It went down and now it' s coming back up but developable
land .
Hasek: Lori , correct me if I 'm wrong but I think last summer had this
same hassle. Last year I think I talked to you on the telephone and you
had talked to the County Assesser and the County Assesser had said at that
point that that land was still at $10, 500. 00? That' s what he said.
Sietsema: Yes . That' s what he told me this year too .
Hasek: How often does the County Assesser do his job? Once every 6 years
or once a year? It' s a yearly job for him. It ' s not something that he
does only once every 5 years . Right?
Sietsema: Right,
Watson : He has statistics to support that . I
Hasek: Exactly. It' s recent as of last year . It' s a number that I don' t
think that I 'm comfortable with. There' s no question about it . The only
think I 'm arguing with you I think here about Jim, is how we arrive at a
fair way of taking the money away from, asking the developer to contribute
to our park and recreation budget in the form of land or money. If we can
come up with a fair way of doing that , I think the way Lori ' s proposed
here is probably about the fairest way that I can think of .
Boyt : Could we get two different averages? One for within the MUSA line 11
and one for outside of the MUSA line and deal with those two separately?
Sietsema : I don ' t know off the top of my head . I
Boyt: No, but I wonder if the County Assesser would give us the average
cost of property within the MUSA line so when we have a development that
comes in that' s within the MUSA line, their property is averaged at this .
When they' re outside the MUSA line it' s averaged at that .
Mady: I think it' s got to be a more defined than that. The prime propert II
is being developed . The swampland is not being developed so when he ' s
averaging, he' s averaging the whole ball of wax.
Sietsema: I asked him for the average raw land value of the rural area ,
the urban area and the commercial area .
Mady: I think if we use our base as $10, 500. 00, I think we' re crazy. 1
Hasek: I think the thing is , the land outside, obviously there' s a heck
of a lot more land outside the MUSA line that would cost us less but
there' s a heck of a lot more undeveloped land out there than there is
within the MUSA line . The question is , how do you arrive at that number?
You don' t take the developed land, you take the undeveloped land . I
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
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Boyt : I think we' re trying to be fair about it in that our goal is to be
able to buy more land in that area. That' s our goal . To buy more
parkland to meet the needs of the people moving into that area . To do
that, each area is different. We can' t have an average of the three .
11 Industrial , rural and urban .
Hasek: The number that we ' ve got right here now is going to be higher .
Jim' s guesstimate is substantially higher than, then what you' re saying is
simply we' re going to base it on , you' re going to have 3 numbers .
Boyt: Three numbers and that will be it. We' re not going to look at each
one individually then.
Sietsema : Then your fee would be $250. 00 for the rural development and
$550. 00 for an urban development and $2, 000. 00 an acre for the commercial-
industrial .
Boyt : Something like that.
Mady: Whatever it works to .
' Sietsema : Whatever it works to but that would be the basic fees .
Boyt: You have to pay a flat fee. Three separate fees .
Robinson : I like that better . . .
Watson : I think we 'd relatively accurate too because there is a different
weight to the value of those various kinds of property.
' Hasek: The City of Bloomington takes nothing from commercial-industrial
property. They have a 5% that they can take but they haven' t done it.
They don ' t do it. They don' t think it' s fair that the commercial has to
contribute.
Boyt : But we ' re providing amenities for our commercial/industrial areas .
Sidewalks. Parks .
Hasek: I 'm just saying , here we' re going from one community that says 5%
is too much and we don' t ask anything to what you' re suggesting is
$2, 000. 00 is a fair number . I think that ' s an unequitable amount to ask
too. I wonder if commercial , does commercial land . . .
Boyt : We' re providing baseball diamonds for people who work.
tSietsema : I have to disagree with you there myself Ed because they choose
not to charge because they' re interesting in attracting or whatever but we
want to charge what the State Statute is . If they choose to waive that
fee , that ' s their perogative but I don ' t think that we should compare our
number to their zero because they chose to waive it . What the State
Statute would allow, if we go by what she ' s saying , would be substantially
more than what we are. I ' ll tell you that Eden Prairie and Plymouth are
charging well over $2, 000. 00 an acre for commercial/industrial .
I
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 50
II
Hasek: It ' s commercial/industrial? How about multiple residential? I
Sietsema: They pay more for that too because the density is higher and
the feel the parks are used more because they don' t have backyards. Their
own swingset.
Hasek: That was my position with multiple last time we talked about this .
Sietsema: The survey that was done is outdated because the bigger cities , II
the bigger suburbs did raise theirs substantially. Eden Prairie went from
a $500. 00 something number to a $750. 00 number and Plymouth went from a
II
$550. 00 to a $650. 00 so there was some substantial increases in the fees
in some cities. We have to take into consideration that we do charge a
trail fee in addition. That ' s considered part of the park dedication that
we break out so that isn ' t something that we should negate either. That' s 11
something that should be taken in. For instance, Lakeville does charge
about $500.00 a unit and they have a $145. 00 trail fee too so theirs gets
more equal to what Eden Prairie and Plymouth are charging . I
Hasek: Let me ask a question. Is the MUSA line on this?
Sietsema: Yes , the MUSA line is . I
Hasek: Is this the MUSA line here basically?
Mady: Pretty close . il
Hasek: We don ' t have any commercial land outside of the MUSA line do we?
I/
Sietsema: No.
Watson: Not at this point because we can ' t develop it anyway. II
Sietsema: If you can' t get water and sewer , it' s hard to have a business .
Hasek: Is this within it here? I
Sietsema: Yes .
II
Hasek: Lake Riley?
Sietsema: Yes . I
Hasek: So then all we' ve got outside the MUSA line is really ag land?
Sietsema: Right. II
Watson : Except for down along TH 212.
Schroers : And there is some kind of a proposal to the effect of changing 11
that area to ag .
II
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 51
Watson : We 'd like to get rid of everybody. That junk that ' s down there
but it ' s all been there so long . . .
Hasek: I 'm wondering , you ' ve broken it down into three parts . Rural . . .
Mady: Do you have those . . .
Sietsema : Not off the top of my head . I 'd have to ask them again. I
can' t guess .
Mady: Because I know what we' re seeing developed isn ' t developable land
now. It' s the agricultural land down further . The residential land being
developed , with the farmland is where this is really crazy. I think our
residential land is a lot closer to what Eden Prairie' s is than what the
farmland is .
Hasek : Isn ' t there pressure, or hasn ' t there been pressure to develop
these two corners in Chanhassen? I personally worked on both of those
corners .
Watson : On TH 5 and TH 41?
Hasek: Yes .
Watson : There ' s been a lot of pressure to develop there. Chaska is the
closest sewer obviously. Sewer is not that far away from there .
Mady: Ours is even closer but it ' s not legal .
Hasek: Would that give us any problems if we went with three designations
like that? Industrial , commercial?
' Sietsema: I would have to check with Roger to make sure.
Hasek: I 'm just trying to recollect the last time we talked about this .
Wasn't there some indication that in some of the industrial land just
south of the main street of Chanhassen here sold for like $15, 000. 00 an
11 acre when that went through? Somebody had mentioned that .
Sietsema : Rosemount?
11 Hasek: Yes .
Sietsema : That was commercial/industrial . That went for $24 , 000 . 00 an
acre.
Robinson : You made the statement in the packet on March 22nd when we
talked about this Lori , when you were talking about inside and outside the
MUSA line. You said rural areas are going for like $3 , 500 . 00 an acre.
Sietsema: That sounds right. I think that' s what Scott had quoted me but
I 'm hesitant to give you any figures when I don ' t know for sure.
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24, 1989 - Page 52
Mady: Can we move to table this pending what the three numbers would be
and Roger 's advice.
Watson : I ' ll so move.
Mady: I ' ll second it .
Sietsema : Before you second that , could you elaborate on what direction
you' re giving staff .
Watson : To find out what those three figures would be. To find out from
Roger if such a proposal where we would have a different valuation for II
within the MUSA line , outside rural and industrial/commercial property, if
that' s a legally defensiveable mechanism to use.
Boyt : Is this also where we talk about trails and sending the information
to the Planning Commission?
Sietsema: Yes . I wish that would be separate discussion.
Watson moved, Mady seconded to table action on the Park Dedication Fee
schedule and direct staff to research and bring back the three figures for
urban, rural and commercial/industrial land. Also, to ask the City
Attorney if these numbers can legally be used . All voted in favor and the II
motion carried .
Sietsema: Last time we talked about the trail dedication fee and what it II
was supposed to accomplish. If the trail dedication fee is supposed to
cover the cost to build sidewalks within a development , it does it on
large developments but not on the smaller developments. If it ' s supposed
to pay for sidewalks and contribute towards the overall trail system, it' s
unreasonable to expect that to happen. It ' s also unreasonable to expect
that the remainder of the developments that are going to be coming in to
pay for the overall trail system. So staff felt that perhaps this would
be the time to separate ourselves from sidewalks and move that back into
the planning, as it is in other cities . Make sidewalks a planning
request . Recommend to the Planning Commission and City Council that that
become a part of the subdivision process, or a requirement of the
subdivision process and that the one-third of whatever the park dedication
fee is remain as the trail dedication fee that would be put in the pot
toward the remainder of the community interconnecting trail system.
Again, if we just take out the connecting trails , it' s still unreasonable
to expect the remainder of the developments to come in to totally pay for
that or to try and figure out what that ' s going to be when you don' t know II
how many units are left out there to be divided . So I think that the
amount equal to one-third of the park dedication fee is a reasonable
amount .
Boyt : Sounds good to me.
Mady: Yes, I have no problems with it .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
• January 24 , 1989 - Page 53
Hasek: Do we need a motion on that?
Sietsema: If you want to send the sidewalks to the Planning .
Hasek: So moved .
Boyt: I ' ll second .
Hasek moved , Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that sidewalks become part of the Planning Department' s
responsibility. All voted in favor and the motion carried .
Sietsema: Just as a comment on that, on the tail end of that, what I
would like to do at your direction, is to revise the trail plan taking out
all the sidewalks and bring that back and have a look at what that looks
like . Take the trail plan and take out the sidewalks and see what that
looks like. Just for your own information. Just see how and get a feel
for what that is . Maybe that ' s something that we want to work on .
Mady: It'd be nice to have an open meeting someplace where we can talk
about the trail issue again .
Robinson: It' s 10: 20 and we have four items left .
Sietsema : Totlot can wait . Priorities can wait . Did we forget anything
else? A discussion that came up last night was a request from a resident
along Lake Lucy Road . They want to be able to park along Lake Lucy Road
in the wintertime. I just want to alert you that this is an item that' s
probably going to be coming back to Park and Recreation because the
Council indicated that maybe a possibility would be to remove the bike
trail along Lake Lucy Road .
rWatson : Why do they want to park along Lake Lucy Road? You can ' t park
anywhere in the wintertime.
Sietsema : Well , that ' s just exactly the point . Even if there isn ' t a
trail there, you can' t park there anyway. But his concern is that when it
snows he can ' t get up into his driveway and he needs to park on the street
until . . . At any rate, I wanted to let you know that that was upcoming .
The other thing I wanted to alert you to or to let you know is that
Eckankar did come in with a site plan. It ' s for a church right in the
middle of the 175 acres . They' re not planning to subdivide in anyway.
Therefore, they would have no park requirement. According to Steve, when
their attorney brought it in , when they took it to the consultants , they
said here' s the ordinance. Follow it to the letter and they dotted their
i ' s and crossed their is and they' ve doubled checked and it looks like
it' s going to be something that ' s going to be very difficult to deny.
Watson : The only thing about it is , they assured us when they came in
last time that they do not have a church which is the fascinating part.
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 54
Robinson : They' ve got a convenience store.
Watson: They have a publishing business and they had meeting facilities
and facilities for conferences . Eckankar has no church .
Sietsema: That is all up in New Hope. They built what they were
proposing , the campus thing up in New Hope and now they' re saving this
piece for a church. It's quite an elaborate, they've got bucks .
Watson: No question.
Sietsema: And they' ve got the bucks to fight anybody who tries to be
discriminatory so I just thought I 'd let you know that that was .
Boyt : Let' s change the color of the paint on the South Lotus Lake Park
signs . That yellow.
Hoffman : Those are Herb Bloomberg ' s development signs .
Boyt: Yes, but they all say park. They say South Park or South Lotus
Park. Maybe you could ask him if we could paint it .
Hoffman: Update as well on what Council did on the park fees . They
approved them as is . There was some discussion from Councilman Workman on
why we were going the lower direction. Why don' t we raise them? It seems
everything is being raised . They also directed us to work out some
arrangements for the people who do pay for a program, to participate in a
program, to work our an arrangement to allow those people free access to
the park.
Boyt : Any program or a City program? A program could be South Tonka '
Little League.
Sietsema : Let me read you my notes on that so you have a clear
understanding. I just wrote down some of their concerns . Wants a way to
allow mothers to drop off their kids and little kids ball players , etc . to
get into the park without paying. I guess that' s the only one I wrote
down.
Schroers : The only one we lowered was the daily parking fee right?
Sietsema: There was no clear direction from the Commission as to how we
were going to determine who got in free or not. One of the comments that
was made last night is that they'd just like, to ease the tension, they
would like to either include a sticker in the registration fee or give
them a sticker when they register and not charge them so they can get in
free or something so that it' s clearly defined , very clear who can get
into the park and who can ' t and you don' t have a 15 year old fighting off
raging parents.
Boyt : I think they could get their sticker when they pay their fee when
they register .
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
' January 24 , 1989 - Page 55
11
Hoffman : But then again we get into the other , the out of town ball youth
leagues coming in.
Hasek : How about the family who has 3 or 4 kids involved and each time
they come down, they pick up a sticker for their kid and start passing
them around the neighborhood for the people who don ' t have them. Don ' t
worry, don' t buy your sticker because I 'm getting 3 of them and I only
need 1.
Sietsema : It doesn' t matter . If you would build the sticker into the
fee, it ' s paid for.
Robinson : How did we leave that? Just that there would be som-
exceptions to it?
Hoffman : Yes . -
IISietsema : You guys didn' t give us any clear direction so we asked the
Council if they wanted to give direction on that .
Hoffman : They didn ' t leave clear direction either .
Sietsema: They said ask Park and Rec to give you clear direction.
' Robinson : Maybe we should discuss it .
Mady: I have a question on Jim Chaffee' s report, did the resident from
Carver Beach go to the Public Safety Commission meeting or were they asked
to?
' Sietsema: It was my understanding that they did not go to the Public
Safety Commission meeting but Jim will be at this meeting and so will the
City Engineer . One last thing for your information , I don ' t know if
anybody of you know Larry Brown. He' s the assistant engineer . He' s
submitted his resignation and he will be starting for a private firm that
I think is located downtown and I don' t know the name so he will no longer
be employed by the City as of two weeks from whenever .
Schroers : I was contacted by a Boy Scout this evening who would like to
do our proposed archery range as an Eagle Scout project . I don' t know if
' any of us know where we' re at with that. Basically, he said at Lake Ann
and I said well , I don' t even know that it ' s going to be at Lake Ann . I
don' t think we' re that far yet.
Sietsema: What ' s his name?
Schroers : I don ' t even remember . I told him I would find out tonight and
I asked him to call me back so he' s going to be calling me back.
Sietsema: He should contact me when he calls back because I have a list
of somethings that have come up that could be done.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 24 , 1989 - Page 56
Schroers : And not necessarily the archery range? 1
Sietsema : Well , the archery range is a possibility. We have to define
what it' s going to be. If it' s just a bunch of hay bales with a big
bullseye put in front of it, then I don' t think that ' s going to qualify 1
for an Eagle Scout project . But if it' s something more elaborate than
that.
Schroers : It can be a little more elaborate than that . We can do better . II
Mady: Can the Administrative packet be put on the next agenda because
there ' s a lot of things that we didn ' t discuss? There are some things
that I want to find out about. A couple of things.
Sietsema : Like what?
Mady: Like the basketball court thing at North Lotus Lake.
Sietsema: That ' s on our next agenda .
Robinson : All of that ' s going to go on the next agenda .
Robinson moved, Boyt seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried . The meeting was adjourned . 1
Submitted by Lori Sietsema
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
SPECIAL MEETING
JANUARY 31, 1989
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order .
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Sue Boyt , Ed Hasek, Larry Schroers and Curt
Robinson
MEMBERS ABSENT: Carol Watson
' STAFF PRESENT: Lori. Sietsema , Park and Rec Coordinator
APPOINTMENT OF ACTING CHAIRPERSON.
' Mady moved , Schroers seconded to appoint Sue Boyt as Acting Chairperson
for the Park and Recreation Commission' s special meeting. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
INTERVIEWS OF CANDIDATES FOR PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION OPENINGS.
CURT ROBINSON.
Sietsema : Curt , you have an understanding of what the time commitment
1 involved having been on the Commission already so I don' t think I need to
go through that with you so the first question is , do you feel you have
the time to make the commitment to the Park and Recreation Commission.
' Robinson: Yes , and I think my record speaks for itself . I believe it was
1985 when I joined the Park and Rec Commission and my attendance has been
somewhere' s in the upper 80% I believe of the meetings since I 've been
here. So yes I do and that' s not a problem.
Sietsema: Okay. What is your impression of the current park and
recreation system and what do you feel you can add or what expertise or
knowledge do you bring to the Commission?
t Robinson: I think I bring my superior intelligence. The fact that I 'm
extremely good looking. My charming personality.
' Boyt: You smell good too.
Robinson: And obviously my keen sense of humor . I bring my experience I
believe, having served on the Park and Rec since 1985. I also feel that
I ' ve gained a lot . I see what the Park and Rec has done in the last year
and a half or two years, probably a year and a half and it' s much more
than it was my first year and a half, whatever on the Park and Rec
Commission. I believe the activity has picked up an awful lot since
I first joined as evidence by the fact that we had to go to two meetings a
month. When I first joined in 1985, we were meeting once a month, so I
bring my experience with the Park and Rec and also my experience on the
CAA for a number of years prior to that.
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 2
Sietesma : What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission within the City system?
Robinson : Role of the Park and Recreation Commission is to recommend to
the City Council on issues dealing with Park and Recreation within
Chanhassen . It ' s as simple as that . We' ve had some very tough issues to
deal with I think in the past few years and there' s many more to come.
Sietsema : What are your feelings regarding conservation, environment and
passive parks versus active parks?
Robinson: I was asked in my original interview about passive parks and
active parks and I honestly didn' t know what that meant at the time. All
I could think of was the active and you see my application at the time
was, I was concerned about youth sports facilities and I still am. I now
understand the passive side of the parks issue and that too has an
importance as indicated by the trail system which I believe would be
considered more of a passive consideration. ,
Sietsema : Could you please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the Park
and Recreation Commission?
Robinson: It obviously isn' t for the money. I obviously don' t have any,
am not doing it to further my political carreer. I have no desires in
that area . I believe that you should take part and be involved in the
city you live in to help better it. I have felt that way. That' s why
I was on the CAA. That' s why I joined the Park and Rec Commission.
That' s why I 'm involved in church activities. I think you just have to be II
involved in some of these areas and give freely of your time.
Sietsema: Are there any points of clarification?
Robinson : And I still don' t have my tennis court in across the street .
Hasek: I don ' t have a trail down Minnewashta Parkway either . 1
Mady: One thing I was wondering if maybe we should ask each one of the
candidates after we 've gotten all the answers is if they have anything to
add . If they want to ask us a question or elaborate more or give us just
what they want.
Sietsema: Do you have any questions or have anything to add? '
Robinson: No, I don' t believe so. Thank you.
DAWNE ERHART
Sietsema : Dawne Erhart is our next applicant . I
Hasek: Who we've seen before, right? You've attended several meetings?
Dawne Erhart : Two .
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 3
rSietsema : Dawne, I don ' t know if you' re aware or not of what the time
commitment required for the Park and Recreation Commission. We started at
one meeting a month and we ' re now at at least two meetings a month. In
the summertimes we often meet on weekends to go visit park sites or deal
with different issues or have special workshops on different things . I
know last summer had a month where there were 4 meetings in one month .
' The first question is , do you feel you have the time to make the time
commitment that' s involved in this Commission?
' Dawne Erhart : Yes I do . Now that I don' t have the demands of a full time
job in my schedule that required a lot of flexibility I might add, I do
have the time to go to the meetings that would be required of me . I 'm a
' person that will follow up on issues and I look forward to getting
involved in civic events because I won ' t be working holidays now and I ' ll
be able to participate in some of those things which will be nice for a
change .
Sietsema : What is your impression of the current park and recreation
system and what do you feel you have to add? What kind of expertise or
knowledge or interest do you have to add to the park system or to the
Commission?
Dawne Erhart : I think Park and Rec is responsible for good planning of
park and recreational facilities or activities throughout all of
Chanhassen . I could add that there is not any representation on this
Commission for the southern part of Chanhassen and I do feel that I do
' represent the general population out there. I ' ve lived in this area for a
long time. I know a lot of people. Also, there again, I have the time
and I 'm a person who would be able to follow up on issues .
Sietsema: What do you feel the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission?
' Dawne Erhart: To serve the people. Be a voice to the people and to be
part of the advisory board to the Council .
Sietsema : What are your feelings regarding conservation and environment
and passive parks versus active parks? Passive parks being more of a
nature area , open space and active parks being play fields.
Dawne Erhart: I think when we are looking at trail plans , such as nature
trails , I would like to keep in mind what , sorry. Can you go through the
passive park versus the active park?
Hasek : Passive parks are those things like just nature walking trails .
Picnic areas are pretty passive. Active would be like ballfields, soccer
fields , hockey rinks .
Dawne Erhart : And this regards to conservation?
Hasek: It ' s a two part question really. What are your thoughts about
conservation and how do you feel about active versus passive parks?
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31 , 1989 - Page 4
Dawne Erhart : As far as conservation goes , I would like to see our
wetlands and our wildlife protected when we' re looking into parks and
trails. I guess high on my list of priorities for this community would
be, I 'm interested in the passive parks with the trail systems. Nature
trails and I think there is a need for both. The passive parks and the
active parks. It sounds like you' ve got a lot of softball players in this
particular family community and children that would use both. I think it
would be a nice amenity to have in this community.
Sietsema: Could you please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the Park
and Recreation Commission?
Dawne Erhart : I have an interest in the community. There again , I 'm
interested in seeing a trail system, a reasonable trail system throughout
all of Chanhassen . There again, I would like to see the southern part of
Chanhassen represented on this Commission and I feel that I could do that.
I have the ability to work with people and I have the time. I
Sietsema: Do you have any questions of the Commission or anything to add?
Dawne Erhart : No . I liked the interview. It was nice and short and
informal . I thought all of you would be sitting up here and I 'd have to
stand here in front of you .
ERIK PAULSEN
Sietsema : We ' ve got that list of questions that we' re going to ask you . '
The first one is relating to the time commitment involved with the Park
and Recreation Commission. We have a minimum of two meetings per month
and some months , especially in the summer months , we have additional
meetings or we' ll have a workshop on something or we' ll go visit park
sites or we' ll go visit an area of the city that' s deficient in parkland
or something of interest or if somebody has requested something or has
expressed a need. So in some months we ' ll have as many as 3 or 4 meetings
in a month including some weekends. So the first question is , do you feel
that you have the time to make the commitment to the Commission?
Erik Paulsen: Yes . I don ' t feel at all that I would have any problem
committing to 3 or 4 meetins a month. I guess I view the importance of
the work that goes on here and it ' s important to the community. I would
expect going out to look at parks and continue to discuss also purchasing
parkland . . .
Sietsema : What is your impression of the current park and recreation '
system and what do you feel you can add as in expertise or knowledge or
special interests?
Erik Paulsen : I guess I have no complaints about the current park and
recreation system. I think you guys have done a great job of pushing
through projects like the trails system and things like that , which I
personally favor . As far as personal expertise and knowledge, I guess I
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 5
don ' t think I have any great expertise but as far as my dedication and
enthusiasm, I ' ve just graduated from college a year and a half ago and
settling back in the Chanhassen area I guess . I grew up here. I was a
' lifeguard at Lake Ann Park for two summers . I guess I 've witnessed a lot
of change going on in the community itself. I guess my enthusiasm and
dedication to continuing the process as a whole.
Sietsema : What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission?
' Erik Paulsen : I think the role of the Park and Recreation Commission
itself, it' s a vital part of the community in that I would say it enhances
the quality of life that the Chanhassen residents would look for . What
' they would want to live here for . I think it ' s duty to provide or at
least offer recreational programs , parkland , make it available to the
Chanhassen residents for their ability to use.
Sietsema: What are your feelings regarding conservation and environment
and could you also comment on your feelings of passive parks , being opace
space , natural areas , versus active play areas?
Erik Paulsen : I consider myself a naturalist at heart. I guess as far as
needs for the city itself, definitely there' s a need for both passive
parks and active parks . I enjoy just walking through a park, going on
trails and nature sort of a park, nature center. Also being able to have
the opportunity to parti_ci pate in outdoor sports activities which go on at
Lake Ann now. Little League and soccer so I 'm in favor of both types. I
think there should be a settlement of both depending on what the cost
management.
Sietsema: Could you please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the Park
and Recreation Commission?
Erik Paulsen : I guess my greatest reason I want to serve on the Park and
Recreation Committee itself is because I believe I recognize it' s
importance. I have settled back in the area . I guess I feel that I would
do a good job. I can be very enthusastic, dedicated . I have no quarrels
' about time commitment . As far as all the programs that I 've been involved
with throughout my earlier 18 years here in the soccer and Little League,
like I said, and being a lifeguard at Lake Ann Park, I think it ' s
important that the park and rec system be openly available to all the
' Chanhassen residents .
Sietsema: Do you have any questions of the Commission or anything that
you'd like to add in addition to the questions?
Erik Paulsen : I guess I was curious , how long have each of you served?
Mady: Curt' s the old timer since 1985. I came on in 1986. Sue did at
the same time but she had about a 9 month furlow.
Hasek: I was 1986 or 87. I forget what it was but then I was on the
Mound Park Board for 3 years up there too while I was in school .
Park and Recreation Commission Meeti.n 11 g
January 31, 1989 - Page 6
Schroers : It' s been about a year and a half for me . r
Hasek: Well you and I came on at the same time.
Boyt: And you and I started at the same time. I must have been right
after you started.
Mady: It could have been about 6 months after you started .
Robinson: That sounds about right. We' re all fairly new.
Erik Paulsen : I was just curious .
Schroers: It' s a 3 year appointment .
Boyt : But like Mike Lynch was on 9 years .
Sietsema: He' s the one who' s vacating his position.
Mady: The Commission has changed over a lot in the last 4 years . '
Erik Paulsen: Do you feel there' s been a lot of continuity?
Mady: It was very helpful , especially with Mike being here for 9 years ,
because there are a lot of things that came up. Some things that dealt
with water surface use on the lakes . Mike worked very hard on that issue
in the early 80' s and it wasn' t an easy one for the City to deal with so
he brought a lot of expertise in that. The more I 've been on here, the
more I see that the background , having knowledge in the back of what ' s
happened in the City and having some experience dealing with it is very
helpful when it comes to meetings and being able to pick and choose and
draw on some of that experience when you really have to make , because a
lot of the decisions aren ' t easy ones. I think we found out, I found out
the last 3 years that a lot of times you' re going to be , no matter what II decision you make, somebody' s not going to be happy with you so you ' ve got
to just sit back and figure out what' s going to be best for the City of
Chanhassen for it' s future. Maybe not necessarily today or tomorrow but
25 years down the road can we sit back and say, that made sense and that
makes the city a better place. That ' s what I think our job is . Is to
make sure that Chanhassen 25 years from now and say we didn ' t make a
mistake, we did it right.
Sietsema : Thanks Erik.
JANET LASH
Sietsema : Janet , I put a list of the questions there in front of you. 1
We ' re just going to briefly go through those and have you answer them.
The first one has to do with the time commitment and I don ' t know if
you' re aware or not but we do have at least two meetings a month, the '
second and fourth Tuesday of the month. Then in the summertime we often
' Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 7
' have workshops or we go visit park sites or visit different areas where
there are some concerns in the city. Sometimes I know in the past we ' ve
had as many as 3 or 4 meetings in a month. We just want to make sure that
' you' re prepared to make the time commitment. If that' s a problem or not .
Janet Lash : I don' t feel that that ' s really too much of a problem for me .
I work but I 'm sure everybody here works so my time is important to me but
I don ' t make a lot of other commitments unless I think very strongly. Now
I volunteer for Scouts. I used to volunteer a lot at school but I can' t
now that I 'm working so my evenings most of the time are free , except for
in the summers when there are some sporting things for my kids but I 'm
sure all of you have those commitments too. But I don ' t, like I said, I
try not to spread myself too thin so I can, once I decide I 'm going to
volunteer for something , I take it pretty seriously. Do the best that
' I can.
Schroers : The meetings are mainly Tuesday nights . Tuesday nights aren ' t
' a problem?
Janet Lash : I don' t think so . In the summers , I work in the school
district, so I have the summers off so if it ' s more demanding in the
summer , I have more time then too .
Sietsema : The second question is , what is your impression of the current
park and recreation system and what do you feel that you can add as far as
expertise or knowledge or special interests?
1 Janet Lash: I think, to be perfectly honest, we all know that I 've had
some disagreements with some of the decisions of the Park and Rec
Commission and the public hearing . . .would be pretty foolish on my part .
That is one of the main reasons why I want to try and get interested is to
learn more about it. See if I can contribute maybe some different
viewpoints . Represent maybe some other thoughts of other people in this
City. As far as expertise and knowledge, other than, I feel like I 'm
' fairly informed . I feel like, quite often I ' ll get copies of Minutes of
different Commission meetings and read them so that I know what ' s going on
and I read what ' s in the paper . I feel like as far as being informed ,
' I think I 'm probably more informed than a lot of the people in Chanhassen.
That ' s why I 'm trying to get involved in the system somewhat so that I can
be more informed and have some input. I don' t know as far as being an
expert . Other than Larry, I don ' t know of anybody here who works directly
with parks but I use them. I have kids . I work in the school district.
I know the kind of things that kids like as far as the playground and
things for gross motor skills and I frequent the parks quite a bit myself
so if that qualifies you as an expert.
Sietsema : What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission?
Janet Lash : From what I know now, I 'm not totally familiar with
everything that they do, obviously you wouldn ' t know that until you were
involved , but I guess I feel like their main role is to research things .
To justify to the Council if there are other people that could give you
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
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January 31, 1989 - Page 8
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input, I 'm not sure how that works and to make recommendations to the
Council . Then the recreation, I 've been reading some things , I think you
guys do a lot with setting up sporting activities . Like you do the Easter
Egg Hunt and the 4th of July stuff and I would imagine you have some input
in this movie thing that was going on at school . Those kinds of things. I
imagine you initiate those but I don' t know for sure where it comes from.
Sietsema: What are your feelings regarding conservation and the
environment is one part of the question. The second part of the question
is , do you have a feeling regarding passive parks versus active parks?
Passive parks being your open space, natural, wildlife area. An active I
park being a play field where there' s ballfields , totlots , more developed .
Janet Lash: I guess I feel strongly that there' s a need for both. I 'd
like to see some area that' s undeveloped . That was one of the main
reasons I moved to Chanhassen was I liked a lot of areas that were
undeveloped and you could drive around and see hills and green spaces and
woods and it wasn' t city streets and blocks . I grew up in Minneapolis
where I lived on a block and all the houses were just the same. You have
to walk 6 blocks or a mile to a park. I like the idea of Chanhassen on
the larger spaces . It doesn ' t necessarily have to be a developed place
where your kids could go and run around or play ball . You wouldn' t have
to have strictly a developed park that you have to pay to get in but I see
a real strong need for the development with all the sporting things that
go on for kids and the adults . ,
Sietsema: The next question then is , could you please elaborate on why
you wish to serve on the Park and Recreation Commission. ,
Janet Lash : I think I explained that I have a strong interest in the
parks and seeing them go in what I feel is sort of the right direction .
I 'd like to see , like I said , I guess I 'd like to see some areas that are
not developed or could be developed in the future if the city grows enough
that we would require more things like that. So I guess I would just like
to feel like I would have some input in some of these. I think there are
going to be some pretty big decisions that are going to be facing the
people of Chanhassen and the politicians have to make the decisions. I 'm
the kind of person where if I don' t agree, if I have a problem with it, I
would rather get involved and try and correct it than to just sit home and
grumble about it and complain to people. I don' t like people who do that
so I would rather get involved in trying to have some input into it. At
least if it doesn' t go my way, I know I 've given it the best shot that
I could. I feel like I have pretty strong organizational skills so I
think I could do a good job in that respect as far as , if we needed to
have someone to contact people. I feel like I know people in different
areas of town because of working in school . The people in the area that
I live and I ' ve been in scouts so I know people from that. I 've been
bowling up in Chan on different leagues so I feel like I know people in a
lot of different areas of the town too so I feel like I have some
knowledge of people in all the areas and how they feel about things. I 'd
feel real comfortable contacting some who lived in a different area and
asking them how he felt about something . '
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 9
Sietsema: The last item we have is , do you have any questions of the
Commission or of me or anything to add that we didn' t cover?
Janet Lash: I can ' t think of any questions . I thought you might have
more questions of me.
Robinson : Just one clarifying thing in regards to the Easter Egg Hunt and
the movies. The Commission should not take credit for that. Quite
frankly Lori and Todd really handle that and do a good job. They ask us
to help them but we can' t take credit for doing those good things I don' t
' think.
Sietsema: That ' s part of the time commitment question too . When we have
the big events like the 4th of July and the Octoberfest and the Easter
Egg Hunt, I usually come to the Commission and ask for their assistance in
working those programs . We usually need bodies to manpower so that' s also
a part of the time commitment aspect of it .
' Robinson: We don' t get involved in the planning or all the ground work
that her and Todd do though and I realize that ' s a lot.
WES DUNSMORE
Sietsema : I have a list of question there in front of you that we ' re
going to be asking you, just so you can refer to them if you'd like to .
The first question has to do with the time commitment involved with the
' Park and Recreation Commission. We have a minimum of two meetings a
month, the second and fourth Tuesday of the month . In addition to that ,
especially in the summer, we meet sometimes on weekends or additional
' weeknights to go visit park sites or we ' ll come in early and go to park
sites or areas where there are concerns . Also, there I usually ask for
Commission support in the form of time for the events that we put on like
the 4th of July celebration, the Octoberfest, the Easter Egg Hunt, the
' Halloween party and those types of things that we need more bodies for
crowd control and that kind of thing. So the first question is, do you
feel you have the time to make the commitment?
Wes Dunsmore: Oh yes, I don ' t see any problem with that. I 'm really not
involved with anything right now. Most of my time, I 'm home by quarter to
4: 00 and I ' ve got a little working shop out back, that' s where I hibernate
' in the wintertime. I 'm out in the garden and stuff so I 'm generally
around home all the time. I 've got no problems with no other commitments
or anything like that.
' Sietsema : Second question is , what is your impression of the current park
and recreation system and what do you feel you can add to the system in
the area of expertise or knowledge or general interest?
Wes Dunsmore : To be honest, I 'm not that familiar with the park system
right now. I ' ve dealt with Dale Gregory a little bit. He' s been over to
Eden Prairie where I work and back and forth and stuff . That' s kind of
why I 'm applying for this , is to get a little bit more involved . I 'm not
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Park and Recreation Commission Meetin 11 9
January 31 , 1989 - Page 10
II
that familiar with it.
II
Sietsema : What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission in the Citywide system?
II
Wes Dunsmore : I think they' re kind of the liason between the city staff
and the Council who generally has the final recommendations for anything
that the City does . I think it ' s an important part because the Recreation
Commission here is dealing with the recreation rather than the City
Council that handles everything that goes on in the city. So I think your
recreation commission here is a very important part of the city operation . 11
Sietsema: The next question is a two part question. What are your
feelings regarding conservation and the environment? Also, passive parks
versus active parks?
II
Wes Dunsmore: I- grew up in a small town on a farm and I 'm used to wide
open spaces . And all I hear people say is , we' re moving out town. We' re II moving out of town. There' s nothing in town. I think there ' s got to be
some parkland . There' s got to be open spaces. There ' s got to be a few
brush piles around . People are bored with concrete jungles . Kids have II got nothing to do. You ' ve got to have something to get the young, and not
just the young , but everybody involved . Families along with the kids
sliding , skating, whatever because Chanhassen I see is growing like Eden
Prairie was since I started out there. Pretty soon there ' s nothing to do '
and nothing to do. You ' ve got to get a hold of land and parks and start
developing now before it' s all built up. Then it ' s real expensive or
impossible to get a hold of. You' ve got to start planning now so I am for II
open spaces . Parks . I really am. Even living down here, we' ve got a
couple acres out here, that' s not enough. I 've got 60 acres of woods up
and that ' s where I hike every once in a while. . . It ' s just back out to
the basics and I love that .
II
Sietsema: Do you have a feeling regarding passive parks , passive being
open , natural spaces versus the active? I
Wes Dunsmore: You've got to have both because you' ve got all kinds of
people. You have to have for the kids , you have to have softball . You II have to have baseball . You have to have soccer and all that and yet, you
have to have open areas for adults to cross country ski , to snowshoe or
just take nature hikes to get out and observe things around marshes or
whatever . I don' t think you can have one or the other . I think you've
II
got to have both of them because of the people.
Sietsema : Could you please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the Park
and Recreation Commission?
Wes Dunsmore : I probably shouldn' t say it but I 'm going to be 39 years
Iold in a couple months . I ' ve been working on parks since I was 16, part
time, except for 2 years when I was gone in the Marine Corps . That ' s all
I ' ve ever done. I ' ve enjoyed it . Starting at the bottom end . . .and I
think here I would have possibly a little more input as to what I ' ve seen
II
in the past guiding the recommendations one way or the other just through
II
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 11
' the experience that I ' ve had . It may or may not help but I 've been down
some of the roads a little bit. I think it would be an enjoyable
experience.
' Sietsema : Do you have any questions of the Commission or anything to add
that we haven' t covered that you'd like to talk about?
Wes Dunsmore : I guess I 'm a little bit green on this , from this end of
it. I know you say it' s a couple weekdays a month and some weekends .
That' s no big deal . I 'm not sure of the whole realm of what is all
involved with this. Maybe you can spell it out a little bit exactly what
it is you do besides make decisions . I know some of it but the overall
scope, I 'm not that familiar with.
Hasek : Well , we take a lot of flack.
Wes Dunsmore: That much I know.
' Hasek: Really I think it' s our job to implement the policies , goals and
policies that are set forth in the City' s Comprehensive Plan. That ' s
really our job . Beyond that, we assist staff in making recommendations to
Council regarding the implementation of those policies on developments
that occur . Trying to get our program, our recreational program defined .
A lot of that is discussed by us but the staff really takes the bulk of
that and kind of pushes it our direction and gives us the direction to at
least discuss and from there we take off .
' Wes Dunsmore : Generally they' ve done all the background work and you
guys, you' re making sure. . .
Hasek: They do an awful lot of the work. We get kind of a sheet like
this on a project that ' s coming in but they' ve already looked at it. They
understand what the Comprehensive Plan is asking us to do . The policies
and ordinances that are related to that particular project and it ' s up to
' us to discuss it. If you find anything that' s a little bit awkward or a
different direction, then we try to make that into our suggestions .
Really we ' re a liason , as it were , between the public , which is really
the. . . The ordinance isn' t everything . And Met Council .
Boyt : We work on park design and a landscape architect will come in and
work with us . We didn' t know what the community wanted in parks so a few
years ago the Park and Rec Commission did a survey of the community and we
have a list of priority items that they want to see in the park system.
You work with parks now in Eden Prairie?
' Wes Dunsmore: Right .
Boyt : I don' t think we can ask job type questions . . .
Wes Dunsmore: I 'm the supervisor of all the maintenance staff down in the
parks there. Starting 18 years now this month .
Schroers : We also try to help the staff prioritize the budget .
I
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 12
Boyt : The projects for the year .
Schroers : The projects , put them in an order that makes sense. Or that
we feel , according to importance. I wonder if I could go back to question
2. It was , what is your impression on the current park and recreation
system and what do you feel you can add? I think you answered the first
part, being that you' re not that familiar but on the second part , I think
that as a park supervisor , you certainly would have a good amount of
expertise and knowledge that you could add in this position. I would
guess that. 1
Wes Dunsmore : I don' t know how this system works . I know they've done a
survey out there in Eden Prairie of the residents and asked general
questions like, why did you move here? What did you like? It was a
tremendous response from people that moved out there for the parks and the
trails system. Yet you don' t hear that. From the general public all you
hear is , you' re raising my taxes to put trails in but when you do a house
to house, send out a survey, there' s quite a response for that. So it ' s
something I 'm just a tad bit familiar with. I think there is a real need ,
I 'd like to see the City get more land now and they don' t have the money '
to develop it. They' ve got the land now because it is growing since I 've
been out here, 8 years now.
Schroers : Do you feel you have the knowledge and expertise in the ,
mechanical operations and technical operations of things like the trail
system and ballfields and that sort of stuff?
Wes Dunsmore: I don' t claim to be an expert on anything. I 've been
around a little bit . We started out there back in ' 75 making our own
parks and I was running a scraper . My foreman at that time, there were 3
of us that were running a bulldozer . We started in . We didn' t do a lot
of surveying . We didn' t even have that much equipment at that time. Now
we' ve gotten into more where we get into a little bit of surveying , on the
shooting of elevations and stuff so as far as like going out and building
a ballfield , I would have some handle on that. But the planning , the cut
and fill and stuff like that, no I wouldn' t. It' s a general idea . . .but I
do deal with our park planner up there, Barb Cross and her park director .
I work with him hand and hand on trails we built this fall , this past fall
and stuff so I am familiar with some of that. I have a general idea of
what it takes.
Schroers : A working knowledge of basically how the parks work. That ' s
what I was getting at.
Wes Dunsmore : And I do the budget for our parks and stuff there so then I II
give it to the Park Commission to cut and hack and the Council .
Sietsema: He' s looking forward to being on the cut and hack side of it. 1
Mady: We don' t cut and hack anything . We just recommend somebody cut and
hack . '
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 13
' Wes Dunsmore. I ' ve found that ' s been pretty good over there. I don ' t
think the Park Commission has really gone against any of the
recommendations that we' ve made. I think they do look at it open
'
mindedly. You generally have to rely on your staff . If it' s not a big
wish list , they aren ' t going to spend the money foolishly. There are a
lot of things that they want and not need.
' GERRY MAHER
' Sietsema: What ' s in front of you there Gerry is the questions that we' re
going to ask you. The first one has to do with the time commitment. The
Park and Recreation Commission meets the second and the fourth Tuesday of
each month. In the summer, especially in the summer , we often will meet
more often than that , like on weekends to go to park sites or to go to
areas that there' s questions , concerns , requests . We sometimes have
workshops where -we work through problem solving . In addition to that,
' I often request for the Commission to work the different special events
that we have in the City like the 4th of July celebration. The Easter Egg
Hunt. The Halloween party and the Octoberfest. So the first question has
to do with if you feel you have the time to make the commitment, this type
of a time commitment?
Gerry Maher : Yes . I think in the past , being with the CAA for a while
and various other organizations , there were some time constraints put on
me years ago but I was always able to make time for those . Under the
circumstances now, owning and operating my own company, my time is pretty
' free . I have quite a few hours during the day to do things whenever
necessary. I 've been able to pretty much delegate my time however I want
to . Any additional time required doesn ' t have any interference at all .
' My hours are my own. Whether it be during the week or weekends . I may
work with clients on the weekends on occasion , night or whatever so it
really doesn' t create any problem at all .
Sietsema: The second question is , what is your impression of the current
park and recreation system and what do you feel that you can add to it?
For instance, your expertise. Your knowledge. Your special interests ,
' etc . .
Gerry Maher : I think one of the important things is that I ' ve worked with
kids , and in park and recreation more or less , since I was in high school
for that matter . Back in high school I was a part time phy ed teacher
when I was in high school . Baseball coach back then at the catholic grade
school and assisting coaching in many cases throughout the years . I 'm a
' very avid sportsman to say the least and under the circumstances , one of
the things I 'm quite interested in seeing the environment survive. Not
only for myself but for my children as time goes on. I take a lot of
' time, and spend a lot of time outdoors as far as activities . Under those
circumstances , I think it' s . . .as far as what I would like to do and see
things done can certainly help. I think I 'm pretty familiar with working
through systems. There again, owning your own company and working the
time I ' ve spent with CAA and Little League and coaching and working with ,
whether it be CAA or other organizations and having a pretty good idea of
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
11
January 31, 1989 - Page 14
what kid' s needs are as well as adults .
Sietsema: What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission within the City system?
Gerry Maher : I think it' s to provide an atmosphere for the people who
have lived here in the past, the people that are here now and the people
in the future, to use the environment and what we have to offer to the
best of the ability so everybody can participate in. For those who want
to especially and those who may have felt in the past that maybe they
couldn' t. '
Sietsema : What are your feelings regarding conservation and environment,
is the first part of this question. The second part is , how do you feel
about passive parks versus active parks? Passive parks being your open
space, natural areas and the active being the playfields with ballfields ,
totlots , more developed parkland .
Gerry Maher : Well , I think many of you may know my feelings to a certain
degree. I think one of the things I see as a continuing problem, and
there again, I grew up in Excelsior from the time I was 3 years old and 11 I ' ve lived here all my life. One of the things that' s happened over a
period of time is the City and the State has an excessive amount of
property that' s able to be used for recreation. Whether it be wetlands ,
water lands or playgrounds , etc . and I think as time has gone on, for
whatever particular reasons . Only until recently I guess to any great
degree has someone tried to take some steps to properly use these lands
for the people who really have paid for them all along. I think what ' s
happened all too often is that as this community out this way has
developed more and more, whether it be through industrial or residential ,
many of the areas , many people get the feeling that there aren' t that many 11
areas around for them to enjoy when in fact with the amount of property
that' s available that the City and the State owns , the recreation, there' s
an overabundance. Under the circumstances, I think it would be more
readily used by the population and people made aware of it. I think as we
get crowded and crowded in this area , the way it' s growing so rapidly,
unfortunately many people see it as another Bloomington or something and I
don' t think, under the circumstances , we have to go to that degree. That
there' s still enough space that ' s been kept out here that can be tied up
as opposed to a little park in Bloomington that ' s out at 94th and Lyndale
or Highland Park or a few of those areas and yet they' re so thick around
it. There ' s enough space around here that people can enjoy it without
having to be overcrowded with various other industries and everything
else . Passive parks , as regarding to active parks . I guess there again ,
I look at the various areas around , growing up out here. There are plenty II
of active parks , the playgrounds you' re talking about in particular .
There seems to be many of those around for kids to use. Unfortunately,
they probably don' t use them that much . Mainly because you've got your
school yards and various other places . I don' t know why it is. It' s
always been that way. They' re used occasionally for baseball games and
some totlot programs and various other things but I think passive parks
are going to be more of a role for what ' s going to be needed more and
more. Carver Park' s been out there for years and years and a few people
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
' January 31, 1989 - Page 15
use it and as time goes on, maybe more and more because everybody' s
getting driven out of the park but I think there are many more areas ,
whether it be the area between Carver Beach or whatever , Near Mountain ,
' the land that' s out , more people want to get out and away from the
population. That' s why a lot of people moved out there. In those
particular areas , I think people are beginning to do more and more. An
example is , I can think of when I first moved out to Greenwood Shores ,
' even before I lived there, there were very few, if any that were walking
around Lake Ann . As the fall and summer moves along, I don' t think
there' s a day that goes by that there aren' t a number of people using it.
And I think those are what people are looking more and more for . And
with the amount of property that' s available, and for the most part, the
relatively inexpensive to keep up. The investment' s very small to begin
with, as far as walking paths or nature trails and various other things ,
and I think they pay off considerably.
Hasek: Can I ask for a point of clarification? I guess I didn' t quite
1 understand the answer to the first part of the question. It sounded to me
as though you were suggesting that there was enough natural areas and
acquired parkland to accommodate future development but then at the same
time you were saying that you didn' t feel that this community was going to
probably develop as thickly as Bloomington . I guess I don' t see the
correlation between those.
Gerry Maher : What I 'm saying is is that there is plenty of area out here
and for whatever particular reason, I can only look back two years ago and
I don' t know how Bloomington was set up with some of the other areas , they
had plenty of area set aside. But for whatever reason, as time went on,
that area did not develop or it wasn ' t used . What you see in Bloomington
is basically a lot of active parks , small playgrounds , nice softball
fields and various areas like off of Ni.collet Avenue and various other
places but very few areas that they have some nice wide open spaces. I
lived in Highland Park and over by Bush Lake, and you really probably draw
the line right there.
' Hasek : So what you' re suggesting is that there' s plenty of area for us
yet to capture because we do have some open space?
Gerry Maher : You' ve got the area right now to make sure that it doesn' t
get eaten up somewhere down the line, for whatever reasons . All of a
sudden , why don ' t we put in a few more homes over here . We can get around
that. Change some restrictions .
Sietsema : Could you please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the
Park and Recreation Commission?
Gerry Maher : I answer would be a two-fold reason. One is I guess I 've
' always, I was brought up and I firmly believe that if you' re willing to
criticize and take somewhat of an inactive part of a commission and maybe
involve. . .criticize under the circumstances , but you also have a greater
obligation to take an active participation . I talked a lot of years ago
back when Curt and I were in the CAA and there were some openings then.
We kicked around who was going to go in and Curt was kind of pushed in
Park and Recreation ommissi n Meeting
C o eetz g
January 31 , 1989 - Page 16 '
more or less at that point . Although he was the most likely choice more
than anything and I thought about it for a long time because of the
feelings I have with Lake Ann and various other areas . I lived in Carver
Beach when we first got married. The second thing is, I have a real
concern to see, if there' s one thing that Chanhassen has to offer more
than anything else as far as I 'm concerned, it' s a community that can in
fact grow to a size without really causing a real problem to the
environment. Under those circumstances , I 'd like to see it preserved and
I think being part of the Park and Rec Commission can help take a part in
that.
Sietsema : Do you have any questions of the Commission or anything to add
that we haven' t gone over yet?
Gerry Maher : The only thing I think I have to add , and there again, I
don' t know the history of the people that are on the commission. I know
Curt ' s been here for many years . I ' ve been here since, as I said , from
the time I was 3 years old. I have a real concern. As much as I make the
meetings and criticize or fight particular issues , it' s because I do have
a real concern. I moved out in this area and I stayed here for those
particular reasons . Under the circumstances , I 'm willing to take a shot 11 at being an active participant and make some of the same mistakes and
hopefully improve, as we all hope to , I 'm sure.
BARRY JOHNSON 1
Sietsema : We have the list of questions we' re going to ask you in front
of you there. The first one has to do with the time commitment and I just II
wanted to let you know what that is first of all . First question has to
do with the time commitment. We meet the second and fourth Tuesdays of
the month. In the summertime, often in the spring , we often go out to
different park sites . We go to different areas of the city that may have
a request or a need or a concern to review the situation. We often go to
sites that are going to be developed to look at the lay of the land and ,
see where parkland should be or whatever have you. The other part of the
commitment is community events like the 4th of July celebration, Easter
Egg Hunt, the Halloween party, the Octoberfest . I ask the commissioners
to help man those, crowd control , slinging burgers , pouring beers .
Whatever needs to be done. So the first question is , do you feel that you
have the time to make the commitment to the Commission?
Barry Johnson: Yes I do . I have quite a bit of free time so I don' t see
that that will be a problem.
Sietsema : What is your impression of the current park and recreation I
system and what do you feel you can add as far as your expertise, your
knowledge or your special interests?
Barry Johnson : The park behind my house is great. Besides that , I have
limited knowledge I guess of the park and recreation system. I 've done a
lot of sports . Participate in a lot of sporting activities and I was a
softball player for 8 years so I know a lot I guess about the kind of
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 17
I
facilities I think you need and that kind of stuff . I think I 'm a pretty
organized person and I have a good follow through skills . I guess that' s
about it.
' Sietsema : What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission?
I Barry Johnson: I think you kind of already explained it . I guess you go
out and analyze sites to see if they' re adequate for parks and participate
in community events . Besides that , I guess I don ' t know.
Sietsema: What are your feelings regarding conservation and the
environment?
' Barry Johnson: I 'm very pro environment . I 'm a hunter and fisherman and
various wildlife and seeing that there ' s adequate parks and I guess I put
parks ahead of a- lot of issues .
rSietsema: What is your feeling regarding passive parks versus active
parks? An active park being a playfield with ballfields , totlot that' s
been developed , versus a passive park which is more of a nature, natural
open space area.
Barry Johnson : I think you need both . I feel that active parks , you
would need to have restrictions on lights and that kind of things because
they can be a real hinderance to the neighborhood . And I 'd like to see ,
I enjoy passive parks with nature and stuff so I 'd like to see a lot of
' that I guess . But then again, we need both because there' s going to be a
lot of developing of leagues and stuff out here . Softball leagues I 'm
sure will take on as the population grows.
' Sietsema : Could you please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the Park
and Recreation Commission?
' Barry Johnson : I really enjoy the Chanhassen area and I 'd like to just
become involved in kind of what goes on and I guess I kind of have a
special interest , kind of keep an eye on the park behind my house and see
' that things go there the way I 'd like them to.
Sietsema: Do you have any questions of the Commission or anything else
you'd like to add?
IBarry Johnson : I guess I 'd just like to ask if you enjoy being on this?
' Mady: It has it ' s moments .
Boyt : On our level , the decisions we made are not political . I think
that ' s our goal is to be very non-politcal. To look at both sides and be
objective and try to make a non-politcal decision . We make
recommendations then to the City Council and that ' s where, they will
battle it out differently than we would .
I
I
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Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31 , 1989 - Page 18
11
Mady: When I make a recommendation , it' s coming from the standpoint , I 'm
not trying to speak for whatever group happens to show up and yell the
loudest on a particular issue . It' s more of looking at an issue as to how
it' s going to affect the City 25-30 years down the road . What do I think 11 would be the best for the City and 25 years from now can I look back at
the decisions and say yes, that made the most sense. That' s where I 'm
trying to head .
Hasek: I think it ' s important to understand that as a commissioner , it ' s
real easy to get on the commission for a particular issue, and I 'm sure
most of us originally got involved for that reason. But once you' re here,
you realize that your responsibilities are for the City and the City is
everybody that ' s out there. It ' s not a special interest group that you' re
representing . The 30 or 40 people that show up are hot because it happens
to be in their backyard or for the same reason , there' s the rest of the
community out there that ' s relying on you to represent their ideas and
thoughts on things too so from that standpoint , it is a little bit
political I think. I
Schroers : I think to answer your question a little bit more , I think
you'd find it interesting , challenging , and rewarding when we finally do
get something accomplished because a lot of people have to put in a lot of II
effort before you can physically see something happening. So it' s real
worthwhile from my point of view.
Boyt : This is one of the areas we need to volunteer , do some volunteer
and see something concrete happening. See a playground evolve. See some
trails develop maybe because you were working on it . It makes a
difference.
MICHAEL SCHROEDER '
Sietsema: We' ve got a list of the questions that we' re going to ask you
there in front of you just for your reference because some of them are two
part. The first question has to do with the time commitment involved with
the Park and Recreation Commission. The Park and Recreation Commission
meets the second and fourth Tuesday of each month . In addition to that ,
we often will go out to park sites or to development sites or areas that
someone has expressed an interest for us to review. That sometimes takes
additional meetings. Especially in the summertime. The other part of the
time commitment is community events in that staff plans the 4th of July
celebration and this commission helps plan that. The 4th of July
celebration , the Easter Egg Hunt, the Halloween party, the Octoberfest and
we ask that the Commissioners help man those and run those. Whether it be
crowd control or whatever is needed as far as help. So the first question
is, do you feel that you have the time to make the commitment to the
Commission?
Michael Schroeder : Yes , I guess I considered that in thinking about doing
this . I own Krueger TV in Excelsior . I also work at the University of
Minnesota Hospital working with . . .communications so I do have a busy
schedule but I think this is an important job and I guess my feeling is ,
I
Park and Recreation Commission.
Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 19
if you can ' t bitch and you can ' t make it , try to make a change in the
community or work in the community unless you ' re willing to commit the
time.
' Sietsema: The second question is , what is your impression of the
current park and recreation system and what do you feel that you can add
to it whether it be your expertise , special knowledge or interests .
Mike Schroeder : Most of my experience obviously with the parks in
Chanhassen have to do with the Carver Beach area . I 've been to Lake Ann
and some of those areas and they seem to be excellent sites. I don' t use
them very much myself because we live on Lotus Lake. Obivously I think
there' s a number of things that can be done in the Carver Beach area .
1 Things that people in that area have been trying to do on their own
because as we ' ve talked, I 've talked to some of you in the past, there is
I think concern about developing for the people in that area and for the
people in Chanhassen so I think that my residence in that area and my
interest in what happens in that area I think is what I can contribute .
Sietsema : What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission?
Mike Schroeder : The role of the Park and Recreation Commission? Well ,
obviously I believe they' re there to advise the City Council and the Mayor
on matters of parks and recreation . I think that they are able to do more
indepth studying and work on specific issues that I don' t think the City
Council people can necessarily commit that much time and detail to . I
think they' re there as a place where the people in the City can gain
greater access to what happens in the City. Again , the City Council and
the Planning Commission are probably can not commit enough time to meet
' with all the people who really want to be involved in the process . This
is an area where I think this commission can concentrate on a certain
subject and do a better job.
Sietsema: And what are your feelings regarding conservation and the
environment?
Mike Schroeder : I go back a long ways in the environmental issues . I
started in high school . I was real popular at trying to get the rule
passed at Minnetonka High School that kids couldn ' t drive to school
anymore to try and cut down on air pollution so I 've been involved in it
for a long time. In fact , I was on the first environmental quality
commission at the City of Minnetonka. I was one of the student members .
This issue is very close to me. I don ' t think that there' s nearly enough
conservation in this country in general . I think it' s an important issue.
Sietsema : And what are your feelings regarding passive parks versus
' active parks? Passive parks being open space, natural areas and active
being play fields with ballfields, soccer , totlots , more developed .
Mike Schroeder : I think obviously there' s a need for both. I think that
the higher the concentration of population, the more difficult it is to
have a passive park system because there' s a greater and greater demand
1
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 20
for people who want more places to take their kids and have different
activities so I think that' s a difficult issue. I think it very much
depends upon the situation that you' re faced with at a given time . How do
you balance the wants and desires of the people in the area with the city
in general with the resources that are available.
Sietsema: Could you please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the Park
and Recreation Commission? '
Mike Schroeder : I think it goes back obviously to an issue that I ' ve been
involved with in the Lotus Lake and the Carver Beach area. It' s obviously II
very close to me and as I believe there will be a number of things
happening in the next few years for that area , as well as the city, across
the whole city, I think it ' s important that we , in our area , have someone
representing us and our needs and wants and desires and I believe I also
have something to contribute to the direction the City goes for the entire
city in this area.
Sietsema : Do you have any questions or anything to add?
Mike Schroeder: No, I guess I didn ' t realize I was going to talk to all
of you people. I go back a long ways in Chanhassen . I grew up here. I
actually lived in Minnetonka on a farm. I went to St. Hubert' s . In fact ,
my great, great grandfather was the first mayor of Chanhassen. I guess
they called him a council head or something back then. Back when it was a
village. I 'm interested in these issues and I think I can contribute .
JEFF FARMAKES ,
Sietsema: The first question has to do with the time commitment and
I just want to make sure that you know what that is. The Park and
Recreation Commission meets the second and fourth Tuesdays of the month.
Especially in the summer , we meet to go visit different sites . Whether it
be development sites or park sites or needy areas or areas in question ,
whatever . And the other part of that is the time, when we plan the 4th of II
July celebration and the Easter Egg Hunt and the Halloween party and the
Octoberfest, we ask the commissioners to help out at those to man crowd
control or help whatever needs to be done. So the first question is , do
you feel that you have the time to make the commitment to the Commission?
That type of a time commitment?
Jeff Farmakes: Based on that description, yes . My business occasionally
takes me out of town but primarily I 'm here.
Sietsema: The second question is , what is your impression of the current
park and recreation system and what do you feel you can add as far as your
expertise , knowledge or special interests? '
Jeff Farmakes: I think I answered that on what my profession is . I think
that might benefit the Park Commission. The second thing is is that
I live next to a park. One of the native parks here in town and utilize
the facility almost on a daily basis .
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31 , 1989 - Page 21
' Sietsema: What do you feel is the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission?
Jeff Farmakes : I would hope to promote the use and maintenance of the
parks .
Sietsema: And what are your feelings regarding conservation and the
environment?
' Jeff Farmakes : I guess I made a pretty substantial investment moving out
here from the city to partake in this . Moving next to a lake and moving
out into a rural community. I 'd like to see that conserved .
' Sietsema : What are your feelings regarding passive parks versus active
parks? A passive park being an open, natural area and an active park
being playfield where there ' s ballfields , totlot, tennis courts. More
' developed area .
Jeff Farmakes : I think it ' s important that we need both . They' re two
different kinds of concerns. Both of which I think the City should make a
commitment to .
Sietsema : Please elaborate on why you wish to serve on the Park and
' Recreation Commission?
Jeff Farmakes: I felt that in the past that taking a citizen advocate
' role on some of these issues and I just think that it may be more
constructive to work within it . I 've talked to some of you on the board
here on some of these issues and I 'm concerned I think on a lot of things .
There ' s problems of communication on some of these issues that we were
involved with and I 'd like to see those improved .
Sietsema: Do you have any questions of the Commission or would you like
to add anything that we didn' t cover?
Jeff Farmakes : I think that ' s it .
Hasek: Could I just ask for one clarification?
Sietsema : Sure.
' Hasek : The question of what do you feel is the role of the Park and
Recreation Commission. If you could just elaborate on that a bit . What
I do you feel is perhaps , do you have a sense of what our responsibilities
are to the community and to the Council and the Planning Commission?
' Jeff Farmakes : I think that it' s certainly the repsonsibility of the
Commission to be both responsible not only to the City Council but to be
responsible to the individuals that . . . Those people certainly have a
right to voice their opinions as well as some of the political aspects
within the City and that process where people come in and voice their
opinions in regards to some of the issues that are presented. I think
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting II
January 31, 1989 - Page 22
that the Park Commission probably should lend maybe more of an ear to
that.
Boyt : I 'd like to ask about number 2. What is your impression of the
current park and rec system? I didn' t catch what you said.
Jeff Farmakes : I think some of the issues that we were involved with in
the Greenwood Shores parking issue, I would like to see more communication
on those for the people who are coming in in regards to those issues .
Boyt: I think I 'm talking more about the park system rather than the Park II
Commission.
Jeff Farmakes : Unfortunately, my knowledge of the park system is limited
because I haven' t served on this board. My knowledge of the park system
presently happens to pertain to the park that I live next door to .
Sietsema: The Park and Recreation Commission will be selecting four
people to be interviewed by the City Council on Monday night . There are
two positions open and they' ll be, they' re to make a selection for final
interviews that will be conducted by the City Council so I will let you 11 know one way or the other before the end of the week.
Sietsema : Do you want to just take some time and rank, each rank yours
and we ' ll go through one person at a time on the top four out of the 10
people. Then we' ll come back to discuss .
Robinson: I believe in being not fair. I obviously have myself number '
one. I don ' t know if that' s fair or not and for obvious reasons I think
also. My second choice was Dawne Erhart. The reasons , a couple reasons .
I picked her is she is one of two from the southern part where we need a
representative. Dawne was the first one in with an application. She was
also at a number of our meetings starting way back in November or
something like that and I talked to her at length one night after a
meeting . She' s concerned and I think it' s a sincere concern. So that ' s
my reason for picking her as number two. Number 3, I picked Gerry Maher .
I know Gerry from the CAA. Having worked with him on the CAA. When he
was assigned something like we did , and some of them weren' t real easy
tasks , he went off and did it . There was no hesitation. A lot of people
would put things off and come back and they hadn' t gotten around to it.
He came back with answers and he was very thorough. I think he would
approach the Park and Rec in the same manner. I also liked his answers at
the end . His little spiel at the end , that I think he really is concerned
and he wants to go to work and better things for Chanhassen where he' s
lived all his life . My fourth choice was Wes Dunsmore and I realize
that' s a problem. He also lives in the southern part. He' s right across
from Dawne Erhart I think he said . I wrestled with that but I think his II experience with the Eden Prairie park system would be a big benefit to us ,
especially when we' re getting into now setting up ballfields and a number
of things we' re looking at and he just seemed very knowledgeable, which he
should be, in the park system. So that ' s my four people. I
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 23
' Hasek : I have chosen Curt Robinson as my number one choice. I think in
going through these, I have tried to rate everyone fairly based upon the
responses that I ' ve had from the information that I got tonight . Also,
' any background that I happen to know of the people. I think Curt brings
kind of a different perspective to a lot of the issues that we've talked
about and often times it' s one that I haven' t thought about myself and at
least it gives me another point of reference with which to review things.
1 So Curt was my number one choice. My second choice was Wes Dunsmore. On
a lot of the, I guess criteria that I based this on was representation
from different areas of the city. . .park and park construction and I think
he will bring a lot of expertise to this commission. My third choice was
Dawne Erhart. And like Curt here, she also comes from the southern park
of town but I don ' t know that that' s necessarily a derogatory part of her
application simply because 2 of the 4 that we chose, are going to be
chosen and the likelihood of both of them coming from the southern part of
Chanhassen is pretty remote I think based upon the qualifications of all
of the people so I don' t hesitate to put a second person in. I think
she' s interested and I think she' s responsible and like Curt, she' s
attended several of our meetings already. I also had an opportunity to
talk with her just briefly and she' s got a special interest in open space,
' which is not either pro or con but it ' s, I think something that maybe we
can capitalize on. At least in the southern part of Chanhassen. And my
fourth choice was Erik Paulsen. That more than anything , from a rating
system, he' s from an area of town that isn' t represented as well. From I
think the north . No , he' s up on Laredo . That ' s right .
Boyt: Do you want to think about that?
Hasek: No . It' s the system that I put together and that ' s the way that
the apples fell out of the bucket so that' s the way it ' s going to be. I
think I ' ll just leave it there.
Schroers : He' s got youth going for him too . He would represent a
different age group.
Hasek: Let' s stop right now if we can . The criteria . That isn ' t the
right criteria. It didn' t have anything . . .
Boyt : He didn' t have any outstanding numbers or the answers to the
questions.
Hasek: I think it' s an older one . It ' s not the most recent one that we
put together or the one that was sent onto Council .
' Mady: When I was looking at each individual , the criteria that developed
is how I rated the individual . I didn' t necessarily at the end say, okay,
this one has those 3 items . I did it as they answered the questions and
' tried to get a feel for it.
Hasek: It says , the ones that you gave us , will represent all areas of
the city to the extent possible. Should represnt portions of the
population .
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 24
Boyt : I think we combined those two there on our criteria .
Mady: We never combined it .
Sietsema: You didn' t combine it . The only thing that ' s not there that
should be is outstanding.
Boyt : And the answers to the questions . I
Sietsema: Right .
Schroers : I also have made Curt my first selection for obvious reasons '
but one of the things that I enjoy the most is that Curt seems to be
willing to take an objective look at everything that we have to deal with.
He' s very steady and reliable and the type of person we can count on and
need and I think he works well in a group. Dawne Erhart was my second
choice. Logistically, she got a point for that. Also, I liked her
attitude. I like the fact that she showed her concern by showing up at
meetings when she didn' t have to . I liked what she said about being the
type of person that knows people in her area and feels good and
comfortable going out and communicating with the people in her area . I
liked her answers so I ranked her second. Third, actually she was tied
with Michael Schroeder for third in my point system here . I chose her
second over Mr. Schroeder because I felt that Mr. Schroeder had a special
interest area specifically in Lotus , Carver Beach which is okay but I
thought that was probably one of the main reasons that he came or put an
application in was because of his concern about Lotus Lake and he referred
to that several times and didn' t show a lot of interest or enthusiasm for
the rest of the city. However , his answers were very good . So that ' s
why I picked him third. I also had a tie for fourth between Janet Lash
and Wes Dunsmore and I went with Mr . Dunsmore because of his experience.
Because of his location in the city but I did feel that Janet had good
answers . So anyway, that ' s it. Curt first . Dawne Erhart second .
Michael Schroeder third and Wes Dunsmore fourth.
Mady: Number one I picked was Curt. I feel that the experience he has on 1
the board, his background with CAA, the understanding he has of city
issues and concerns about the growth of our community and what our future
is going to be, just made Curt the number one choice. He may have an
unfair advantage in being a commissioner but I think that ' s something
that' s really very important since we' ve had a lot of turnover in the last
3 years . It' s nice to have a steady influence and Curt brings us back to
Earth from time to time. My number 2 point was Wes Dunsmore. Number one,
we need somebody from down in the southern area of Chanhassen. They have
very little representation really in the city as a whole and when I
combine his extensive background in park areas plus his southern home, he
just really came up for me there. My third choice was Erik Paulsen. Erik
I thought showed more enthusiasm than anyone else who talked to us
tonight. He' s also is one of those unique individuals who' s been through
our entire system. He' s grown up in Chanhassen. He ' s seen our
recreational program so he' s seen probably some of the mistakes we've made
and he ' s seen some of the good things and can bring us a new perspective '
really in that respect. It' s nice to have some youth. My number fourth
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
January 31, 1989 - Page 25
' choice was Mike Schroeder . Mike seemed , for me, to answer the questions
very well. I don' t know if it was just pure luck or had an understanding
of the park and recreation issues but the way I felt the questions should
' probably be heading, looking for future direction and things of that
nature, he seemed to have thought it out a little bit . He didn ' t give
just quick short answers. He really went into some depth with them and
I liked his answers .
11 Boyt: My first choice is Curt . I think what ' s real important to us is
Curt' s history. He knows the history. He knows what happens when we need
' to look at a development. We don' t need to teach him. Curt brings a
different point of view and every other reason you guys said. Number two,
I have Mike Schroeder . He' s from an area that' s not well represented . He
speaks real well . I like his history with the environment. That he' s
' been an environmentalist since he was a teenager . I think that ' s real
important to us. He knows what we do. He knows what our role as a
commission is and he' s been around here a long time. My third is Wes
' Dunsmore. He represents the south and it' s important to me that we get
representation in parts of the City where we don ' t have it and Wes has the
job background that would benefit us . My fourth, I had a tie between
' Barry Johnson and Dawne Erhart and I went with Barry Johnson because he
represents an area that was not at all represented since Mike Lynch is
gone. North Lotus Lake. Should we have gone to 5?
Mady: I was thinking we should go to 6 or 7 maybe. It' s hard .
Hasek: I don ' t think it' s necessary.
Mady: How are you going to rate?
' Hasek: If you follow down through it , you can take first choices . If you
want to go to a vote and total points , there' s a number of ways you could
take the information we' ve gotten.
' Robinson: There' s 4 people with 3 or more.
Boyt : Their names came up 3 or more times . That ' s what we need then .
Hasek: Yeah, there' s 4 people who got 3 or more votes from all of us .
Boyt : It ' s Curt, Dawne, Wes and Mike. It sounds like a good list .
Hasek: Then we've got 1 that both got 2 beyond that if we needed to go to
5.
' Schroers : Maybe we could add somebody in case . . .
' Mady: My fifth choice was mentioned by a couple other people.
Hasek : But everybody' s fifth choice would have been . There' s a good
chance that everybody' s fifth choice would have been so I would just as
' soon stick with the 4 we' ve got . We ' ve got 2 positions .
I
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
II
January 31, 1989 - Page 26
Robinson : That was the ground rules at the beginning .
Hasek : We were asked by Council to give them what , 4 to 6 right? I think
you' ve got 4 good candidates in the 4 people that we've chosen. I think
if you were probably, as a Council or if there was another way of doing
this to go through it , you 'd probably come up with the same basic
information so I don' t see any reason to vote for more than 4 myself. It
begs to question, if you go to 5, then why not 6? 1
Mady: When I initially numbered mine, I figured if you go to 6 and then
we'd pick out , we'd take everybody' s ranking . '
Hasek: We don' t want to do that though. What we want to do is give them
4 good candidates and let them make the choices .
Schroers: So the candidates are Curt, Dawne, Wes and Mike.
Boyt : And any of those four would do, from what I ' ve seen , a good job.
Again, a wonderful group of people that applied .
Robinson : No lie. I 'm impressed . This was tough.
Sietsema: I need a motion.
Hasek moved , Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend four potential candidates for two openings on the Chanhassen
Park and Recreation Commission as follows : The first recommendation would
be for Curt Robinson. The second recommendation would be for Wes
Dunsmore. Third recommendation would be for Dawne Erhart . Fourth
recommendation would be for Mike Schroeder . All voted in favor and the
motion carried .
Mady moved , Schroers seconded to adjourn the meeting . All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. ,
Submitted by Lori Sietsema
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
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10
PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 19, 1989
10 MEMBERS PRESENT: Richard Wing, Candy Takkunen, Bill Bernhjelm,
Wayne Wenzlaff, Barb Klick, Bill Boyt
10 MEMBERS ABSENT: Craig Blechta
STAFF PRESENT: Jim Chaffee, Public Safety Director; Scott
P Harr, Assistant Public Safety Director; Bob
Zydowsky, Community Service Officer; Dale
Gregory, Fire Chief
II VISITORS: Chief Deputy Jim Castleberry; Captain Bob
Pagelkopf; Deputy Dave Potts; Donna Sershen;
- Mike Wegler; Mayor Don Chmiel
11 The meeting was called to order at 7: 00 p.m. by Chairman Richard
Wing.
MINUTES: Motion by Wenzlaff, seconded by Takkunen to approve the
December minutes. All voted in favor.
Ill One correction to the December minutes is to delete the comment
about Takkunen ' s resignation date.
11 One correction to the November minutes is to add Richard Wing as
having been in attendance.
1. VISITOR PRESENTATION: Donna Sershen, resident of Redwing Lane,
addressed the situation she is having with snowmobiles going
across her property. She asked for the City' s assistance in
dealing with this ongoing problem. Jim Chaffee discussed the
I! city ordinance of snowmobile use and stated that he feels the
ordinance is adequate but needs to be enforced routinely. Bill
Boyt mentioned that some neighboring cities have banned snowmo-
bile use and asked to have the City Council look into the issue of
snowmobiles in the city limits . Jim Castleberry apologized to Ms .
Sershen for the sheriff department' s lack of enforcement in
dealing with her issue and will address his staff on this
IP problem. He will get back to her in writing to resolve the
issue. He stated that the residents need to be educated in the
snowmobile ordinance and hoping with the new patrol shift going
IP into effect January 30, it would also help with enforcement of
the ordinance. Wenzlaff suggested having handouts available for
the city and deputies to hand out to residents . Bjernhjelm suggested
IP having the Community Service Officers distribute these, also.
Scott Harr and Bob Zydowsky will address the flyer handout issue.
0
JP
11 PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION II JANUARY 19 , 1989
PAGE 2
1
VISITOR PRESENTATION, continued: Mike Wegler discussed the 1/4
II
block long road (drainage way) in his neighborhhod that he would
like the City to maintain. The road is located between Hopi Road
and Panwee Road and has city signs located in the right-of-way.
It looks like a road, acts like a road, and is used as a road but
I
not maintained by the City. Boyt suggested this item should be
addressed by Gary Warren, City Engineer. Wing asked Chaffee and
the Public Safety Commission to make a recommendation to Gary I
Warren to look into this issue.
CARVER COUNTY SHERIFF' S DEPARTMENT: Deputy Potts introduced him-
11 self to the Commission and gave a brief history of himself and
II
his patrol of the county and Chanhassen. More details of the
"power shift' were discussed by Chief Deputy Castleberry. Boyt
asked Potts about speed enforcement in the City, mentioned that I
not enough tickets are written. Chmiel also noted that during his
campaigning he received many comments from citizens concerned
about speeders in the City. Castleberry said there is a need
II
for more newspaper articles on the crackdown of speeding and
Chaffee mentioned that he and Harr will be more visible to the
residents starting in April by patrolling the streets . With
their visibility and the increase in hours with the upcoming '
"power shift" , speeding issues will be more aggressively
enforced. Chairman Wing motioned that based on the long history
of complaints regarding speeding and traffic concerns in the City
II
of Chanhassen, the Public Safety Commission recommends to the
Public Safety Staff and the City Council to review the need to
increase speed and traffic enforcement. Boyt seconded. All
voted in favor. Noted as the two major complaints presented to
I
the Commission are speeding and downtown traffic problems .
I Castleberry mentioned the bright outlook for 1989 for the
sheriff' s department with the continued cooperation of Chaffee
and Harr. He went on to discuss the "power shift" that will take
effect on January 30 . Shifts will be 10 hour days , 4 days on, 2
II
days off, 4 days on, 4 off; the increase in hours for
Chanhassen should meet the needs of the City. Chaffee has control
over the specific needs of the City and will be relaying them to
the sheriff' s department. Castleberry stated that a meeting will
be held in the near future with the Chanhassen deputies , Captain
Pagelkopf , Chaffee and Harr. Chaffee would like to see a
11 meting with the deputies, City Council members and the Public
Safety Commission to get to know each other . Castleberry men-
tioned the additional training for the deputies and the new
I and updated equipment in use this year.
II
CHANHASSEN PUBLIC SAFETY DEPARTMENT: Jim Chaffee discussed the
I donation of the police car trom Redmond Products , Inc. This car
will be used by Chaffee and Harr. Chaffee thanked Al Wallin and 1
Jim Castleberry for their help in obtaining the vehicle. The new
1 Public Safety addition will be opening this spring, adding room
for the deputies . I
I PUBLIC SAFETY COiMMISSION
JANUARY 19 , 1989
PAGE 3
I
Harr introduced CSO Bob Zydowsky and Bob informed the Commission
of his various duties consisting of animal control , crime preven-
tion, giving talks at schools , community service, alarms ,
assisting with medical calls, snowmobile issues, and packet deli-
"'
very. His assistance with these calls does free up some of the
deputies time so the latter can better meet the needs of
Chanhassen. Boyt asked Zydowsky' s view on the enforcement of
animal control in the City. He stated that the 1st offense con-
sists of a verbal warning, 2nd is a written warning and
the 3rd offense is a citation. Boyt also mentioned the dog
problem in the Carver Beach area which needs a constant "proactive
IP approach" . Zydowsky stated that he and CSO Deb Rand did go house
to house in that area to educate the residents .
Harr discussed the involvement of Jim vonLorenz in the Crime Pre-
"' Program. CSO Rand is ordering mugs with the crime pre-
--Pntion logo and an informational packet for distribution to the
new residents of the City. Harr also discussed the code enforce-
"' ment issue that the City is currently involved in with the West-
side Baptist Church and the recent violations occurring at the
indoor ice rink. The latter issue has been resolved.
IPChaffee discussed the full-time CSO position for 1989 and is
waiting for an answer from City Manager Don Ashworth as to the
starting date. The portable breath tester ( alco sensor) is
going before the City Council Monday, January 23 , for approval
for the deputies use in the City. Chaffee publicly thanked Scott
Harr for his much appreciated assistance in the department;
IP noting that Harr' s legal background has greatly benefited the
City. Chaffee will be looking into having the next meeting of
the Public Safety Commission at Paisley Park.
M UNFINISHED BUSINESS : Chaffee reported on the alarm ordinance in
which the responsibility of enforcing it will stay with the
'''eriff' s department. Deputy Rod Peddycoart is doing a fine job
of handling this item.
The stop signs at 78th Street and Laredo Drive have been put on
hold waiting for accident information from the state.
NEW BUSINESS: Chairman Wing welcomed the two new commission mem-
bers, Barb Klick and Bill Boyt.
Chaffee discussed the meeting date of the Commission be moved to
g the
-econd Thursday of the month. The meeting will then be held in
the Council Chambers allowing more room and the ability to record
the meetings. Takxunen mentioned that in moving to the Council
Chambers , the Public Safety Commission does not lose its
"approachability" to the public in sitting behind the counter.
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PUBLIC SAFETY COMMISSION
I JANUARY 19 , 1989
PAGE 4 II
1
II
Boyt suggested the commission sit in front of the counter to keep II the public access . Discussion followed and all agreed.
Harr discussed the code compliance problem with the Westside Bap-
] tist Church. The church has a deadline of 1/20/89 to meet the II City' s requirements or services could not be held on 1/22/89 .
The City is taking the stand to assist the church wherever
11 possible, yet is strictly enforcing the building codes .
II
Chaffee read the memo from Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation
Coordinator, asking the Public Safety Commission to address the
issue of the stop sign, speed limit enforcement and traffic con- II cerns on Carver Beach Road. Chaffee was asked to attend the
February Park- and Recreation Commission meeting to address the
11 residents with their many concerns . Chaffee reported that radar I
-urveys were conducted on Carver Beach Road. Results came
back that the average speed is below 30 MPH in the posted 30 MPH
I area. Discussion followed on the possibility of lowering the 30
MPH limit. Chaffee will follow up with the Public Safety Com-
mission on the results of the Park and Recreation meeting in
February.
FIRE DEPARTMENT: Fire Chief Dale Gregory reported the department II
received 380 calls in 1988 , an increase of 15% over 1987 . He has
Jhired two new firefighters and will be interviewing two more. II The possibility of the fire department giving out smoke detectors
to residents in older homes that do not have any was discussed.
11 This would rye a great "PR" effort on the part of the department.
Gregory will check into the possibility of obtaining the movie "The
II
. Power of Fire" to be shown at a future commission meeting.
IIELECTIONS: Takkunen motioned, Wing seconded to appoint Wayne II Wenzlaff 1989 chairman and Bill Bernhjelm as acting chairman of
the Public Safety Commission. All voted in favor.
IIBoyt motioned, Bjernhelm seconded to adjourn the meeting at 9: 45 I
p.m.
I Next meeting will be at Paisley Park, 7 p.m. , February 9 , 1989 .
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