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PRC 2016 08 23 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING AUGUST 23, 2016 Chairman Kelly called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Cole Kelly, Steve Scharfenberg, Brent Carron, Luke Thunberg, Jim Boettcher, Jennifer Hougham, and Lauren Dale MEMBERS ABSENT: Rick Echternacht STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Diana Withers 6832 Sugar Hill Circle Stephen Jones 8260 West Lake Court Kimball and Margaret Anderson Excelsior Emily Mattran 8210 West Lake Court Linda Boerboom 8261 West Lake Court Jeff Lobitz Minnetrista Mike Helland 351 Parkland Way Kari Davis 8200 West Lake Court Dean Stanton 500 Bighorn Drive Erin Adler Star Tribune Tony Rockwell 8537 Powers Place th Verdell Borth 202 West 78 Street APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Chairman Kelly approved the agenda as published. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Kelly: Todd any public announcements tonight? Hoffman: Would like to share with the commission and the audience that this past Saturday, Lake Ann Park hosted the Pinky Swear Triathlon. The weather was obviously not ideal. Probably the most inclement mornings of the summer. They had 750 kids signed up to participate in that event. Approximately two-thirds of those either showed up or stayed because some did arrive and leave in that driving rain and participated, you know raising thousands and thousands of dollars. The top 3 fundraisers were a family of 3 children. They raised $42,000 to help cancer families so it’s a great event. We’re glad they’re back in Chanhassen. If you recall Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 they were absent for one year but Mitch Chepokas is where it all started and he was a Chanhassen resident so they’re happy to be back. To find out more just go to Pinky Swear Foundation.org and you’ll find out more about the organization. We’re glad to have them back in Chan. Kelly: Thank you Todd. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS. None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Carron moved, Scharfenberg seconded to approve the verbatim and summary Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 26, 2016 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. RECOMMENDATION TO CLOSE LAKE SUSAN PARK ARCHERY RANGE. Kelly: Moving right along and we have a lot of people here for the next item on our agenda which is the recommendation from staff to permanently close Lake Susan Park archery range. Todd would you like to speak to that please. Hoffman: Glad to. Thank you Chairman Kelly, members of the commission and audience members as well. Tonight we’ll have staff comments then we’ll answer any questions from the commission. They’ll have a chance to discuss what’s going on. You’ll have a chance to get up and address the commission and then they’ll finish their discussion after that. So the City of Chanhassen outdoor archery range is located at Lake Susan Park. 903 Lake Drive East. It was closed on June 30, 2016 to allow for a view and public comment concerning the safe operation of the facility. The archery range has been in place for approximately 25 years. The arrows that were reported this past spring were the first that were reported, at least reported off the property of Lake Susan Park and there is some discussion or speculation or reports that there may have been others found in previous years but those aren’t substantiated, at least in this year. So we th were contacted in June 20 by a resident on West Side Court reported discovering an arrow on their property. There was also another report of an arrow in a front yard across the street and so the City obviously we’re concerned about that. The neighborhood was concerned about the discovery of these arrows and so we immediately called a meeting. We met with the th neighborhood on Tuesday evening, June 28 to discuss the archery range and then that was a meeting of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting night if you recall back in June. Some of the neighbors came here to your meeting that evening and discussed this during visitor presentations and then the commission took the action at that time to at least temporarily shut the archery range down to allow time to review what was going on at Lake Susan with the archery range and if we could change the configuration or change how the facility is utilized. So we did take a look at a study primarily, just taking a look at options. Can we change the signage that is there? That would be one option. Could we build to add more rules or instructions about how to safely use the archery range? Is our shelter, some type of a shelter or a baffle system that could 2 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 be built to enclose the archery range at least at some level? Is there a spot to move the archery range to some place that we currently own? And so those are the kind of options that we were taking a look at. The Archery Trade Association has some very good recommendations on facilities. How to improve them. How to make them you know so they’re safer to operate. But primarily what we were focusing on is this enclosure structure but then through the discovery process this is in a floodplain and so in a floodplain you can’t pursue construction of a permanent type of a facility so you can’t build a shelter over the top. Some people would be facility with the Eden Prairie archery range at Starring Lake Park and that’s an enclosed structure. Some baffled walls. Some draping over the top but you could not by floodplain regulations, zoning regulations construct that kind of facility at this location. So we dismissed that. You know there’s an option just to put up signage and reopen the park. It’s been there for 25 years but with these arrows being found off the property, at least reported being found off the property we didn’t think that was a good option. Relocation. Lots of ideas about you know could this be moved to Lake Ann? Is there another location and we just really, if you study the park system and you study what we have here, this is a fairly remote site in a community park setting. Inbetween the creek and the pond and so replicating that someplace else we just currently don’t have real estate for that. The primary location people are focusing on is the woodlands to the west of Lake Ann Park and that woodlands is currently used as a woods and as a walking trail and so you would have to modify that. Cut down some pretty extensive tree cover in that forest which is in really a high quality forest. And take out the walking trail and Lake Ann Park frankly is already too busy and so adding another large facility into that park setting just would not be the best choice I don’t think. There is currently an archery range that exists in Shakopee. It’s just on our side of the river. You go over the new bridge and you take a left at the parking lot to the boat access. You curve down underneath the bridge and so that’s about 4 miles away. And so when we talk about should we relocate this, well one of the options would be to buy land in the more remote part of Chanhassen is southern Chanhassen so it really doesn’t make a lot of sense if you’re going to be a mile or two away from that site to acquire land. Develop infrastructure. Roadways. Parking lots. You would just as soon you know send people to the Shakopee archery range which it does flood on occasion because it is as well in some type of a floodplain setting. It’s the old ballfield setting for those that have been around a while on 169 there so that’s where that is located. So unless we find another alternative there’s been lots of input from the archery group. From counselors. If there is an option that is available people would like to see it potentially at least considered at this site to keep it open. We’re talking about the sole outdoor archery range in our public park system. Obviously if we had two and we had to close one that wouldn’t be as significant of an issue but in this case we only have one we’re back at the park commission to listen to neighbors and listen to the people that utilize the facility. See if we can come up with an option but unless some other option is available to the, or arrived at by the Park and Recreation Commission it’s our recommendation that you do recommend we permanently close the facility. Take the current targets that are there. Donate them to the Shakopee archery range and then install a pedestrian trail at that location instead of the current archery facility. So I think everyone has the report that has been prepared. If you have any questions we’d be happy to answer those and then we’re looking forward to hearing from the audience as well. 3 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Kelly: Thank you Todd. I have a question about the floodplain. And we don’t have these pages marked but it said any new structure, temporary or permanent would impede the flow of water and likely not be permitted number 5 and when I go to number 5 that’s a Chanhassen City Code. Hoffman: Correct. Kelly: Correct. So is that something that could be changed? Or do we also. Hoffman: No. Kelly: It’s in a floodplain is that something we’d have to go to other government authorities to get that changed. Hoffman: Yeah the watershed district would not approve that so it’s not something that we could modify to put a permanent structure there. Kelly: Okay questions for Todd? Carron: What about the installation of a temporary structure for season only? Hoffman: That’s something that, Terry Jeffery our Water Resources Coordinator and when we sat down and discussed this, some type of a temporary facility would not be an issue. You know you could put a temporary structure there and then remove it so you could bring it in in the spring and then utilize it and then remove it in the fall. That would be something that would be permitted within that floodplain. It’s just a facility at that point. Carron: So looking around and you brought up Starring Lake, they have like a shelter basically that you shoot from underneath but it’s a permanent roofed shelter. Would an idea of a temporary shelter that could be easily installed and brought out something like a batting cage that would encompass the entire shooting standing area to extend 12 foot down range and maybe a 10 foot high with a drop in the front to keep arrows from going up and cover that with a fabric of some sort that’s capable of deadening the arrows. Not necessarily a hard structure but something that’s easily to remove and replace so that it won’t interfere with the floodplains and the flow but yet still encompass the entire shooting area and 12 foot down the range to make sure that the funnel is going straight forward. Would that be permissible do you think? Hoffman: As far as, we would have to take a look at the floodplain but an archery range is allowed in a floodplain. That would be a part of the facility but it would be temporary so permanent structures that would impede. This thing if it would flood it would be picked up and moved downstream so I don’t think that that would be the same as a permanent structure but we would want to check on that. Anything temporary in a floodplain as far as I can tell by the zoning code would be permitted. 4 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Carron: Well correct me if I’m wrong that the shooting areas are pretty temporary too. I mean they’re not really permanent structures so it’d be somewhat similar to that correct? Hoffman: Correct. Carron: Okay. Kelly: Todd if we had some type of a temporary structure two questions. What kind of costs are we looking at (a) and (b), could it be constructed in such a way that a stray arrow would be caught inside the structure and not go out to the neighborhood? Hoffman: So if you’ve looked through a baseball catalog that’s about what we’re talking about. At least by your description as a covered batting cage. Large enough to have 4 shooting lanes inside of it. I’ve not looked at costs for that but you know somewhere $10,000 dollars plus or minus would probably the cost. It would be a catalog item so you could purchase this. Modify it for this type of an application and then the archers would be underneath it shooting out from within that structure. But we would have to take a look at what those costs would be. Boettcher: You said it was possibly 4 shooting lanes? Hoffman: That’s what’s currently there. Two 20 yards, a 30 yard and a 40 yard target. Boettcher: That’s current okay. Kelly: Other questions for Todd? Hougham: Are there other archery ranges that have temporary structures out there? Hoffman: Not that I’m aware of but. Kelly: Do we have any visitors that would like to get up and talk about the archery range? Anybody who wants to come up, everybody’s allowed to come up. Please come up, give us your name and your address and then you can go ahead and address us. Stephen Jones: Hi, my name is Stephen Jones. I’m at 8260 West Lake Court and I’m one of the persons who found an arrow in their yard. It wasn’t just laying in my yard. It was drove in a wood pile. You’re supposed to shoot that way and it was shot that way. Well off to the south I guess if we’re going to define it. I did just hear if, about a stray arrow being caught in the net. Well you can shoot a stray arrow from outside the structure, temporary or permanent so I want to keep the archery range because I like to shoot archery myself quite a bit. There’s already a tunnel that goes underneath Powers so if you just make that walk path. Go right to the tunnel that goes under Powers. You mentioned the woods right there that it’s a pretty healthy woods. I 5 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 get that. Perfect spot. Two big hills. A nice little channel right down the middle. And there’s nothing behind it so you can still have your archery range. It’s just we’re not going to have arrows landing in people’s yards so if there’s anybody in here who doesn’t mind an arrow landing in their yard, show me your hand or speak up once I’m finished so I’m voting to get the archery range here. Just it’s got to be in a safer place because there’s problematic people that can do the wrong type of thing. Whether it’s an error or whether it’s deliberate, it’s just, it can’t happen in a neighborhood. And that’s it, thanks. Kelly: Thank you Stephen. Anybody else like to get up and talk? Just go ahead, yep. Come on up. Verdell Borth: I’m a long time archer. Shooting archery since early 60’s. Kelly: Could we have your name and address and then you can go ahead. th Verdell Borth: Verdell Borth. That’s V-e-r-d-e-l-l and it’s B-o-r-t-h. I live at 202 West 78 Street in Chanhassen. Kelly: Thank you. th Verdell Borth: Intersection of 101 and West 78. And I’m also familiar with the, very familiar with the archery range over at Starring Park over in Eden Prairie and I’d like to have that, an archery range of that type considered a little bit further and I did bring some materials for the commission with some pictures. And like was mentioned an archery range in Chanhassen’s been in operation for 25 years. I’ve shot there for about 19. I’ve never seen that area with the, where the targets are located flooded. One of the reasons that it’s cited as the Starring Lake archery range or that type wasn’t considered was that it would impede the flow of water through the archery range. Looking at the, at the archery range in Eden Prairie I don’t see that that’d be possible. The water went right through that thing and anything similar to that it would run right through it. The only possible objection I think is probably drilling holes for the pole. The pole sections for installation of the baffle system but as you can see from the pictures in that illustration, the sides of that archery range are completely open. If it wasn’t built completely down to the ground the water would run right through it as well. In addition it has a sand base and gravel base to it so the city wouldn’t even have to mow the grass which would be another advantage and there’s no electricity installed. It’s totally contained so it could even operate on a 12 month basis. The problem with the current archery range, if you shoot out there in the winter time you’re likely to lose your arrows in the snow. So I’d like, you know the staff stated that they did some studies on it but I didn’t see, but you mentioned tonight that he did consider the Starring Lake archery range but I’m also familiar with, a little bit familiar with codes that are not always that hard and fast and without further inquiry I wouldn’t automatically say that they, that you couldn’t get a permit to build at least a part of that type of an archery range. Further I don’t know that you need to build the entire baffle system for the arrow flight all the way down range to the target. All that would be necessary would be a roof to restrict shooting arrows up above 6 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 the plane and that’s pretty much accomplished by the shelter. Any kind of a roof over the shooting lane so I’d hate to see the archery range disappear completely just because all alternatives haven’t been considered and so that’s the reason I brought, I know it’s difficult to describe that baffle system unless you’ve seen it and I think the pictures that I’ve brought along with me help with that but I think the most important part is a structure right over or restricting right by the shooting lane to prevent shooting upward. I think what they have at Eden Prairie they’ve got these conveyor belt sections all the way across all the way down to shooting area. I don’t know that, I didn’t think an arrow could get out actually of that, in the first couple of feet of that. Incidentally on the other side of that archery range is the dog park so all these years they’ve been operating a dog park on the end of, on the far side of the shooting range so, and that sort of testifies to the safety also of that particular archery range design. I also spoke this morning to Michelle Asig with the Archery Trade Association and she had seen a notice in the paper but I don’t know, she hadn’t spoken with anyone else but I’m also, I’m also a biker so I would like to see a bike trail established, you know close that section because I bike all the way down and then back around to get to that tunnel that he’s talking about so but not at the expense of the archery range. And so I, I would like, I sort of drafted up a proposed motion as well. Counter motion to consider possibly a structure on the shooting lane as an alternative to the full baffle system so, and I’d like staff to consider that and the commissioners to consider that possibility as well. Thank you very much. Kelly: Thank you Verdell and thank you for the illustrations. Verdell Borth: Thank you. Kelly: Anybody else like to get up. Dean Stanton: Yeah I’d like to. Hi my name is Dean Stanton. I live at 500 Bighorn Drive. I’ve used the archery range for about 5-6 years and looking at that photo of where the arrow came I kind of, I don’t think it was a dry fire or a misfire because anybody that shoots archery, if that’s the target you draw back either down, up. Nobody draws over here and the moves their feet. That’s not how you shoot archery so to me it’s probably kids. Vandals. Somebody that shouldn’t be there and nobody wants an arrow in their back yard but you can’t control certain vandals and things but nobody, I don’t think any good archer is going to draw like this and then move their feet like this. Anybody that shoots archery I’d like to hear you dispute that because I’ve never seen anybody do that at a range anywhere. You’re always pointing at the target so if that arrow was shot at a 90 degree range, then that shows to me it’s probably kids that shouldn’t be there. What I would suggest another possible solution would be have a minimum age of 21 unless you’re with an adult and you could sink 3 telephone poles. Have a steel cable at the top. Raise up a canvas or some kind of a tarp on the one side so if you’re shooting like this, even if you go like this you’d almost have to go straight up. You wouldn’t have to build a full structure. Sink 3 poles. Raise it up during the archery season. During the winter drop it. It’d be cost effective. I mean you can’t stop somebody that’s gonna break the law. I mean anybody could take an arrow out and shoot it anywhere and you can’t stop that. If it’s been open 25 years and 7 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 we’ve had 1 or 2 cases of this, to me it’s somebody that shouldn’t be there. Bad people. Whatever you want to call them. Vandals, whatever. You can never stop that 100 percent but you know you can’t stop getting hit by a car either but I mean you’re going to destroy a facility that a lot of people are using for a couple cases. And yeah it’s not right but is there a low cost way to give some protection and you know maybe you raise the age limit. Keep the teenagers and kids out of there. I can’t imagine any good archer is going to go in like this and then shoot this way. Those kids were getting rid of some bad arrows or something. I don’t know what the arrows looked like. If it was shorter arrow that a kid would shoot or if it was a full sized or what. I didn’t see the arrow but that would be my solution to it so thank you. Kelly: Thank you Dean. Linda Boerboom: My name is Linda Boerboom. I live at 8261 West Lake Court and I took archery in college which was many, many years ago and enjoyed the sport. I don’t, my home does not, back yard does not buffer up against the archery range. I’m the one that lives across the street that had the arrow go in the front yard and that has to be a pretty powerful situation to have it come over those trees into my front yard. Probably 10 feet away from my house. Not laying on the ground. Pointed straight up and down and that’s scary. I have children and pets and I live in a neighborhood that has children. Parents. Families and pets. Whether it’s a situation where some young person shooting their bow and arrow just to fool around, if the range isn’t there that won’t be an option. They’ll go wherever the range is at and they can shoot their arrows right, left, straight, backwards, however they want to do it. It’s a danger to our neighborhood and that’s to me what’s important. I don’t like to see or hear that a sport or an area that’s been developed over the years and enjoyed by many have to be close but if it’s a safety concern I would err on the side of safety and figure out another option for that. I’m sure sir you wouldn’t want an arrow in your front yard. Dean Stanton: No absolutely not but you have a better chance of getting hit by a car. Linda Boerboom: I don’t even want to get hit by a car. Then my option is why have a place there that puts us in danger. Dean Stanton: Was the archery range there when you first moved out? Linda Boerboom: I have lived there since 1996 and I know that these are not the only 2 incidences. These are the only 2 incidences that are, been brought forward. Whether they have over the past year however, my grandson told me after we had this first meeting, he found an arrow in my front yard a couple years ago but he said he just didn’t know what to think of it and he just, he didn’t think much of it and my arrow is in my car right now. I call it my arrow so I look at this as an opportunity not to take away from this sport for Chanhassen but to find alternatives and I heard what you said Mr. Todd in regards to like a batting cage and putting it up just during the summer. That doesn’t stop anyone from going during the winter months or any other time. My life, my family, the neighborhood is still at risk because it’s still in inexistence so 8 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 with that I’m sure this council will come up with a good solution that will work for everyone. Thank you. Kelly: Thank you Linda. Carron: Todd can I have a quick clarification? Do the bales that the targets stay up during the winter months? Hoffman: The container it does itself. The bales go away. Carron: They don’t, okay. Thank you. Emily Mattran: Hello. My name is Emily Mattran. I live at 8210 West Lake Court and have lived there since 1989 and yes, when I looked there, there were no roads into there. Lake Susan Park existed but there were not any roads off of Powers. I have no issue with the sport of archery. I am here because I am concerned about public safety. I think if one arrow had even broken a window in one of those houses we probably would not be having this discussion, let alone a pet or a human being. We wouldn’t say well it’s only been 2 people that got hit. That’s not enough in 25 years. I don’t think that we would be approaching this as well maybe it should still be open and I don’t know enough about archery ranges of what, how often are there houses that close to the archery range. If that hill wasn’t there and was wooded that distance where you can see houses, I’m not sure when I hear descriptions of Starring Lake or Shakopee that there are, that there are houses that close to an existing archery range. So I’m concerned about safety. Bows are very, I brought an article that I had in the Star Tribune about an archery contest and the power of modern day bows and it says in here, an archer says it’s a 100 yard challenge but I draw back only 60 pounds. 15 or 20 years ago you needed a 70 pound bow to get enough kinetic energy to harvest game. With the evolution of archery equipment that’s no longer necessary so things have changed in what people are showing up with at that range over time too. Of how far an errant arrow could go so that’s my concern. I also trust that you will listen to all the concerns but mine is a public safety continuing issue and would prefer to have that opportunity elsewhere than that close to a neighborhood. Thank you. And I will submit this to the public record. Kelly: Thank you Emily. Diana Withers: My name is Diana Withers and if I am not taking the time of any actual Chanhassen members, I am an Eden Prairie resident. However I do most of my shopping in Chanhassen because the taxes are lower and the stores are better. I also am a certified archery coach. For 4H. For the Boy Scouts of America. For the national archery in the schools program and I’ve had some Chanhassen students in my program. I am coming here with my daughter who shoots archery through the Junior Olympic Archery Development program to speak on the fact that safety is the number one thing we teach our students. And safety is the number one thing we teach our parents so when I read about a neighborhood that is concerned about the safety of their children, then I do feel concerned that those who practice the sport of archery, 9 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 whether they are doing so as trained persons or people who are doing it as a habit or just a vocation are not making sure that not only they are following the rules, that the people that they are with are following the rules. I will say that it is very unlikely for an arrow to be shot 100 yards and to land straight up and down in the ground where a person has to pull it out only because physics will cause that arrow to fall flat more than likely. It is very difficult to shoot an arrow at 100 yards. You have to be very strong even with advances in bow technology. And as the gentleman earlier stated to shoot at a 90 degree angle from the actual targets shows an intent to be delinquent. Safety again is a number one concern for anybody who is trained as a leader in this sport and the idea of a safety curtain strikes a cord with me because in the national archery in schools program we use a safety curtain because we are inside gymnasiums where we don’t have a soft backdrop so if a student misses the target the curtain is there to protect the concrete wall that is usually behind the target and to prevent the arrow from getting damaged. I appreciate the gentleman that brought the pictures of Starring Lake range. We have spent a number of hours there and one thing that you’ll notice in addition to the tall walls is the chainlink fence between those walls. What you can’t see in these pictures, what you cannot see in these pictures is there’s a pathway on this side of the grass that leads to the dog park. There is a pathway on the other side of the range that provides the handicap access to that range so there are people that are walking 20 yards from the shooting range but because of the tall walls, because of the curtains that are going across, arrows are highly unlikely to leave that range and these chainlink fences are there to prevent errant people from walking onto the range unaware that the arrows are there. So there is safety all around in this range. When we shoot indoors we make sure that all the doors to the gymnasium that might allow somebody to walk into the path of the shooting range are locked with signs that say do not enter. The idea of a safety curtain that would be able to be put up seasonally and then taken down out of season is a phenomenal idea because not only does it prevent the possibility of an arrow, even by accident going off. It could also help prevent anybody who might be coming onto that archery range from another direction because we want to make sure the people who are coming from any nearby paths or are off the path and don’t realize that there’s a range there can’t accidentally walk down range in front of an arrow. An archer that is in the process of shooting. So again I do feel for the people that have found the arrows in their yards. I question whether or not they actually came from somebody on the range because of the physics that would be involved for it but that’s not what we’re here to discuss. We’re not here to discuss how they got there. The perception of archery as a dangerous sport is something that hurts me because of the hours that I spend training children to be safe. Because of the hours of training that I have taken to make sure that I never have to call a parent and say, there’s been a problem. We need to go to the emergency room. And I never want to see an archery range shut down. As was mentioned earlier the Shakopee range is perhaps over 4 miles from here. Four miles at 5:00 in the afternoon is a long distance. And when you consider that Carver County Parks charge for a parent to attend with their child even if the parent is not shooting, that is a cost consideration for some parents. The fact that there are only 3 to 4 outdoor ranges within a short distance of this area with archery being one of the fastest growing sports among our young people means that the access to those ranges is extremely limited during high demand seasons so to shut down a range and donate the targets to Shakopee is to reduce the accessibility of archery ranges to our community by 25 percent which only puts more strain on 10 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 those ranges and when you consider that Junior Olympic Archery is a fast growing sport as well that it needs facilities, you’re also now reducing the opportunity for that sport to grow in the southwest metro. My daughter and I currently drive an hour each way to go to Coon Rapids in order to practice at the outdoor facility at Bunker Hills because that’s the only facility that has a long enough range for her to practice at 50 meters. And our 4H program for Carver County, we have to drive to New Germany for practice. We have to drive to Waconia for practice because there’s so much competition. The Eden Prairie range is often in use by archery classes which is fantastic but it reduces the accessibility to the general public. So to reduce archery ranges in the southwest metro by 25 percent because some delinquence perhaps intentionally did this is going to be a huge hit to the archery community and to the sport in general. And as a member of the shooting sports community I ask you to consider other alternatives such as the batting cage option or some sort of other facility that allows you to keep this range open. Kelly: Thank you Diana. Diana Withers: Thank you. Kari Davis: Hi, I’m Kari Davis. My address is 8200 West Lake Court. I’m not an archer myself. I do live on West Lake Court as I just told you and I was at the neighborhood meeting and mostly I’m here to share a little bit more information from the content of that meeting. And I want to say that I appreciate the city staff coming out so quickly and being as responsive as they have been in this situation. Just to clarify a little bit, there have been more than 2 arrows found in yards. Some of the other folks that were at the neighborhood meeting did share that with us. Myself personally I am not an archer however we did have a group of teenage girl scouts from our girl scout troop out to the archery range with a trainer and we really had a good experience there. I appreciate archery as a sport. At our neighborhood meeting those who could show up were I don’t know, there were probably a dozen or 16 of us there I would say. There were at least 3 or 4 gentlemen that were bow hunters so we appreciate the sport and we know it is a growing sport. But I have to say that I also come down on the side of safety first. Some of the conversation was about the priority of safety, mostly we have a lot of kids and we have a lot of young kids and they spend a lot of hours playing outside. There also obviously are concerns not only not only about our children but about the adults in the neighborhood and about vehicles in the neighborhood. The other big thing is that we feel it’s not just a concern on West Lake Court but also Powers Boulevard is very busy with a lot of bicyclists and a lot of walkers and a big thing that I learned at our neighborhood meeting, one young man attended our neighborhood and he’s in college now but he lives in a neighborhood and he told. He’s an active archer and he explained the technology to us and how much more powerful it is now and how, and he is a big strapping guy. He’s an athlete and he talked about how at a certain point after shooting he has to just stop and that he’s very disciplined about it because you can’t control you know that strong bow I guess and the power from that and how he stops himself because he doesn’t want to have errant bows so it might not just be vandals. It might be people who just you know make a mistake in their sport. I don’t know. But anyway the power of the equipment is a concern not only for West Lake Court but also for Powers Boulevard as well. And for me as well the priority 11 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 is public safety. And I am disappointed at the thought that we might have to move an archery facility but I do believe that the priority has to be public safety and I hope that we could find a more safe place. I also agree that you know the safety curtains sound great but I do believe if the archery range is still there then archers good and bad practicers will come to that area. Thank you for listening to my comments. Kelly: Thank you Kari. Anthony Rockwell: Hi, Anthony Rockwell, 8537 Powers Place. I’ve been shooting there for about 5 years. I guess I’m a proponent of keeping it. You can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. I understand that there’s been some situations that arrows show up, whether they come from the range or not but I genuinely believe if enough heads come together that you can come up with a solution that’s viable that works for everybody. I guess I would say to keep the range there, whether that’s putting up sides or a roof. There are ways when you go to Shakopee. I tried to go to Shakopee 2 days ago and the entire road was shut down. I had to turn around and go home so thanks for that. I’m a deer hunter too and if I don’t get to practice I can wound deer and so that’s the other reason why I go there. I shoot there 4 to 5 times a week. I’m there a lot. I live a half mile away. And it’s also a community thing. There’s a lot of people there I’ve never seen in the 5 years I’ve been shooting there someone purposely or even jokingly decide to shoot an arrow over the trees being that they’re anywhere from $15 to $20 an arrow. Now if you say well you know kids mom will just buy them a new set of arrows, I don’t believe that. I think you should start the lowest level of protection for the community which would be a sign saying 21 and above. Intermediate to advance archers. Something of that nature because I believe that people are inherently good. They will follow directions and say oh wow, I can’t shoot there anymore. I’m only 18. Alright and they leave. I think they’ll do that. Then also have best practices where you don’t draw your bow back and drop down. Where you pull back. Bows are more stronger, of course but they’re also measurably more accurate. I mean they’re putting arrows in a 4 inch square at 40 yards easily now so if you have any idea about archery, accuracy becomes stronger and actually better with more powerful bows. And I guess that’s about it. Thank you. Let’s make sure we really look at every opportunity before we throw the baby out with the bath water. That’s really important to us I think as archers. Thank you guys. Kelly: Thank you Anthony. Jeff Lobitz: Hi, excuse me. My name is Jeff Lobitz I’m actually from Watertown to the west. Highway 25. I’ve been shooting there for probably 3-4 years. Met, recognize a few guys from in here. I also shot, well I just got back from a mountain hunt in Nevada so I was actually trying to practice for that and I went to Shakopee like twice. No thanks. It’s full. It’s a pain to get there. You know the Susan one is, when I found it I used to shoot at Carver Park. I go to Cabin Fever a ton. Know the owner really good and you know when they talk about archery and stuff, you know going there once and you see, I mean most the time when I go to, I don’t like to Cabin Fever to shoot because there’s always kids and stuff in there but it’s fun to sit there. I mean all these little girls and stuff that are shooting. How many people I ran in like oh I saw you at Susan 12 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 shooting and you become friends you know, this type of deal. Now like he was saying, you shoot this way. The woods is here and you know when I heard that it was closed I was trying to think like, what houses? You know like and then well it has to be the ones you know and like you said, they’re shooting. I mean they almost have to be shooting straight up. All the way over that woods, et cetera. I think there’s point out some viable solutions to put up something you know whether it’s canvas or whatever. And like I say I think it’s just a couple bad apples. I mean I’ve been there, I’ve shot there. Well I shot there one morning and a cop drove down the tar path and rolled down the window and he was like oh, sorry. You know just checking on you. I’ve shot there early morning. Evenings. It’s a peaceful little place. I’ve shot, I used to shoot at Carver Park. I’ve seen kids show up with BB guns out there. I mean it’s like, it’s just Susan’s a nice little place to go shoot and you don’t have to worry about the big crowds but, and when guys do show up, the guys that I’ve met anyway, they’re serious guys. You know the one guy he called me and I was away from work. He felt bad that he got stuck at work tonight. He shoots there. I run into him all the time and he lives right in Chanhassen here too so like I said I feel bad that they found arrows. The other thing too is I would look at you know the arrows. If you can see them too because a lot of times you can look at an arrow and you can tell if it’s a legit arrow like a guy like I would shoot. My arrows are at lest 20 bucks a piece. I mean I’m not firing them over the woods. Like when I break one or shoot one target at a time because I don’t want to Robin Hood them because I’m not out there to drop 50 bucks every time I shoot. Now the bows, I shoot an 80 pound bow you know. I mean they are powerful but they are extremely accurate but I’ve seen people out there you know shooting recurves. You know way cool and I’ve seen a kid that I asked him if he was trying out for the Renaissance Festival because he had like a Medieval you know like, I took a video of him. It was you know I called him Igor. I saw him at the gym. I go to Lifetime a lot but he was practicing there so you see you know all types of it and then being that you know Jeff that owns Cabin Fever, just being there and seeing how much the sport has grown with all these young kids. A lot of times I sit there and I’ll just help them and I won’t even shoot my bow but I start thinking of you know them people and everybody that I know I tell them Susan. The little park there because it’s, like I said I’ve shot at all the other ones and like Shakopee like I said I just ended up shooting in my back yard because when I went to Shakopee a couple nights there it was people. You know there was people there. There was only, it goes up to 60 yards but there’s only, what is it? Five. There’s not very many slots so I mean 6 people show up and you’re waiting you know and then the mosquitoes come out and I even went there the one morning and shot at 6:00 in the morning just to get away from all of that but you’ve got you know a peaceful, nice little range there like I said it’s my favorite. Hopefully you can come to a solution. There’s got to be a solution with you know netting or something. The other thing too I was thinking, you know what about, what about making people want to shoot there. They’ve got to register. That maybe they’ve got to pass a shooting test or something like if you do, if you do like the Metro Bow Hunt you have to pass a test that Cabin Fever or something like that but maybe to shoot there maybe you have to be registered you know. I’m just thinking it’s a couple bad apples and I hate to see everybody suffer over you know a couple kids screwing around or something and I know the guys, I know quite a few guys that shoot there and I know they would say something if anybody was screwing around there so like I said I feel bad for the homeowners. I just hope that you know whether there’s another 13 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 location that works better than that but I’ve got to think that you know some sort of enclosure. The other thing too is, like they brought up like Powers Boulevard and the back side, you know again that’s going to be somebody firing arrows straight up in the air. The same people that are shooting them over the woods in order for it to get there. I mean I shoot, I’ve been shooting my bow every day, twice a day, three times a day for my mountain hunt I went on and you know when people say like getting sore like it’s, no. I can shoot my bow 200 times you know at 80 pounds but that’s because I’m you know, I’m used to shooting it and everything like that so, but that’s all I’ve got, thank you. Kelly: Thank you Jeff. Anybody else like to come up and speak? Any questions of staff for Todd? I’ve lived in this community for about 23 years. When I first moved into Chanhassen it was a farming community. I used to hear a lot of rifle shots. Now whether they were hunting legal or not I don’t know because I’m not a hunter but as the community grew the rifle shots went away. The hunting rights went away and the only way I can be talked into keeping the archery range open is if Todd can guarantee me that we can build something and there will not be a stray arrow that goes into the neighborhood and that means not one. If one child died or got maimed, I couldn’t live with myself so I couldn’t be for it and that’s where I’m coming from. Anybody else like to comment? Carron: I don’t think in any life situation we’re going to unfortunately have 100 percent guarantee. That’s the down side of everything but in talking to some people and outside of tonight and listening to both sides of the neighborhood and the people that use the archery range, I think that we all agree that it’s a great asset to this area. It’s just that there needs some safety improvements. I think that could very well enhance this area and still keep it safe for all. Now again you’re not going to get 100 percent because if someone goes out from Lake Susan pavilion and shoots an arrow in the air or across the street, that’s something that’s going to have to be brought up with the police or something along those lines. I don’t think we can keep that at 100 percent but I think that, I think from what we heard and what staff has kind of talked about as far as a temporary backstop or what we’ve kind of heard tonight is what Starring Lake and even the dog park right behind it. Right behind Starring Lake. There’s ways to make these areas safe and if it’s an enclosure, if it’s something that we have to discuss with considering that it’s our own Chanhassen code if I read this right Todd as far as impeding the flow of flood water. Any new structure temporary or permanent would impede the flow of flood water would not likely be permitted. Maybe we can design something that does not impede flow water that’s more of an enclosure type area and I think that’s, that’s an option to look at. I’m also looking at the sign here from what we have out there currently and it says 14 years and under must be supervised. I think that can be revised and looked at as well to either encompass 18 or 21 years old as supervised too. From our research that’s been given to us as a commission from earlier and then also just looking online a lot of them say 18 years old and under have to be supervised so I’d be in favor of that as well with keeping the archery range open but before opening it back up making some modifications to enhance the safety of this area. Kelly: Other comments. 14 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Scharfenberg: Well I think as a commission we all, when we’re talking about anything that we do in the parks that we always look at safety first so I think that all of us are concerned when we have reports of arrows in a neighborhood and having been on the commission for a significant period of time and as indicated earlier, this is the first report that we’ve had you know this year of these issues with the arrows. I think it is as people have voiced tonight it’s, the range is something that is important to people and people like to use it and clearly we don’t want to shut down something that provides benefit to the community. We have you know, if you look at just not only the range in terms of liability issues, we have lakes that are used and people are going to be using the lakes. We have the risk of someone drowning at any one of the lakes and so there’s always risk in life as we know that you could get hit by a car or something like that. I struggle with this particular recommendation that has been made by staff to close something down without you know looking at the potential options that are out there. We’ve talked tonight, there’s been ideas that have been put forth and my thought would be to keep the range closed temporarily until we look at and explore all of these options and building and what the costs of that would be and if it’s possible to do it and do it safely then I think we’d bring that back and consider that again I would say in the spring of re-opening at that time. Kelly: Todd didn’t we look at a number of options that you decided were not, that were either not cost affordable or we just couldn’t do it? Hoffman: There’s a variety of structures that could be analyzed but the real barrier here is, you would need a variance from both floodplain restrictions and then also there’s a DNR waterway directly adjacent to this so just off to the, can you zoom in Jerry? Just off to the left of the targets there’s the creek and so this creek is Riley Creek coming from Lake Ann to Lake Susan and that’s a DNR waterway. There’s going to be setbacks for any kind of a structure to that DNR waterway and then on the right hand side is the wetland and there’s going to be setbacks from that as well. So you have an overall floodplain. This has flooded a couple of times. The last time I saw it flooded the water was about half way up the archery targets if you recall. That was a Labor Day storm probably in about 2006. Somewhere in there so over at the water overtopped Powers Boulevard. Flooded this entire area. That’s why it’s a floodplain. That’s one restriction that you would need a variance from. The other would be the variance for a structure that close to a DNR waterway and then also that close to a wetland so what we’d want to do first is to identify is that, are those variances possible. Could we go through that process to grant those variances and those would be from most likely the watershed district and then the City itself. Carron: When you’re talking variances you’re talking permanent or temporary? Hoffman: Either. Most likely a permanent structure. A temporary structure I don’t think you’d have a problem here. Audience: One question? If you put up some steel poles and ran a chainlink fence, make an enclosure out of chainlink fence and then during the season when you had targets up, cover it 15 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 with a canvas or some other kind of material. When you removed it you don’t have to bring it all the way down to the ground. You could have it 2 feet off the ground and any water could flow through there. That might be a possible solution that would be cost effective. You have the shield out, nobody has to go out what 10 feet before the angles start to come into play where you can’t physically go any farther than that backdrop. So if you cover it with chainlink fence, the water can flow through. It’d be cheap and you can roll some kind of a heavy duty canvas or something over it. That might be a possible solution that would be cost effective to try. Kelly: Thank you. Yeah go ahead. Hoffman: Actually you guys should come forward to the microphone. Kelly: Yeah come up to the microphone and address us. Jeff Lobitz: Jeff from Watertown. Have you guys been out to the site? I mean all physically have been down there? Because like if you look to the right of the platform even, I’m thinking if they’re shooting those arrows they have to be off that platform even. You know with the trees growing up and stuff like that or you know like, I supposed I could be on the very end shooting spot and shooting up but like he said with, or like when you say a structure, are you talking about a structure that’s built flat to the ground with like walls and stuff that go straight to the ground versus like 4 to 6 poles kind of like how the archery, that holds the targets you know. Like 4 of those and then it’s up and then everything is built up off the ground. You know what I mean, like he said. You’d have to, the bottom part could be open so if there is water coming, you’ve got 4 by 4 poles. That’s the only thing that’s restricting the water. How can that be much different than the target holders in a sense? Hoffman: Any permanent structure here, posts in the ground. Fencing. Carron: It’s all the same. Hoffman: It’s all the same. It’s going to require a variance from 2 different sets of regulations. Jeff Lobitz: Okay. Audience: Are those very hard to get? Hoffman: They go through a public hearing process. We would do this all over again at the variance hearing. Kelly: Thanks Todd. Any other questions? Any other thoughts? Hougham: From what we’ve heard today from both sides I’m not sure that even coming up with a solution for this specific location would meet the safety concerns of the nearby neighborhood. 16 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 I’m all for having an archery range. I think I would prefer that we continue to search for an alternative location that’s farther away from nearby houses. One of the jobs of this park and rec commission is to build out the park system for the city of Chanhassen and if we don’t have a spot for it right now, it’s something we can continue to look to do in the future. Kari Davis: One other light bulb came on. Kelly: Kari, announce yourself again. Who you are. Kari Davis: Sorry, Kari Davis, 8200 West Lake Court. I was up here earlier sharing with you some of the conversation from our neighborhood meeting. I just remembered one other point just for the sake of due diligence and actually I’m up here as a generic Chanhassen taxpayer too. A point was raised, what about the City’s liability and just hopefully as we go through this process and evaluate our options, whether it’s a different location. Closing it down. Or coming up with safety, you know a safer structure where it is, I assume that’s something you guys are way ahead of me on in terms of evaluating any liability that our City would have if something goes wrong and I can’t help but wonder considering all the concern that has been expressed and documented tonight, and before that, you know if that would somehow make that a more sensitive issue or of greater concern to our city so just a thought. Thank you. Kelly: Thank you. Todd has the City Attorney weighed in from a liability standpoint? Hoffman: Similar to some of the conversations we have had earlier, we operate a lot of things. A variety of different amenities that have risk. This is one of them. It’s no different than any of the other ones. Kelly: Thank you. Carron: I’m still in favor of not shutting down this range and doing something to enhance the safety of it. To enhance people shooting straight down range and also take out the, building a cage of some style so that, on a temporary basis so that we meet all the ordinances and codes through the City that take away all misfires in any direction. And also improving the signage to give direction to shooters on the fact that all shooting should take place within the cage. To up the minimum age that’s non-supervised because I think we should, it’s been there for 25 years. I understand one arrow is enough to hurt somebody but I also understand that if we improve the safety that might have taken away that one arrow. As we discussed before we don’t know how that happened. We can speculate but I think if we, I think we should give the option of trying to improve the safety of this area. Improving the shooting platform to improve the safety before we lose the archery range. Boettcher: And I would second that along with what Steve said earlier. You know looking at options. I come from an industry where safety was like number one as an engineer when you looked at 7 things in designing a vehicle so safety is huge but again looking at the value of it. 17 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 The people that are dedicated to teaching it to children. Stuff like that and I think what Steve mentioned something about a full enclosure, you’re never going to guarantee 100 percent. If you take this out somebody’s still going to walk up there and just shoot because they used to. Unless you make it a concrete dome and you can’t get to it. There’s always going to be the bad guys. You know you’re never going to stop it 100 percent but I would like to explore the option which probably involves keeping it closed for the rest of this year and looking at safety wise what else can we do. Relocation. Anything else. I favor both what Brent and Steve have already voiced. Thunberg: Yeah on a similar note I guess thank you for everyone that has come today. Appreciate hearing all the sides. You know I think Chanhassen obviously we have great assets with our parks and trails and a variety of amenities and we’ve looked at things like pickleball is a growing sport and we’ve tried to do more when that comes up so hearing that this is a growing sport you know, closing it I can see where that would be a disadvantage. However I look at this as one arrow is too much. I know we’re not going to ever prevent 100 percent of accidents but accepting that level of risk. If I put myself in that neighborhood I think one arrow is too much and unfortunately this may be a case where one bad apple kind of ruins it for everyone. The motion that’s been presented to say it was permanently close and donating so that is kind of not being revisited, I guess if we came up with something that was close to the remainder of the season and staff felt like we’ve heard some new options tonight and that over the winter with the park plan that’s being done, if this was put in as a topic so it wasn’t permanently closed but it was, we still explored it, I guess I could get behind that but yeah keeping it, reopening it this season I just don’t see as an option. Kelly: Does somebody want to make a motion? Carron: I’d like to change the proposed motion and make a motion that this commission recommend to staff that the archery range reopen once a temporary shooting enclosure is fabricated to safely encompass the entire shooting area extending 10 to 12 feet down range. Also to modify the signage to include 18 years and under to be supervised and also to give direction that all shooting take place within the enclosure. Kelly: There is a motion out there that we close, I didn’t catch how long we closed it for. Carron: We reopen when the temporary shelter is fabricated. Kelly: Okay. That we close the range and reopen it when we have a temporary shelter and signage up. Is there a second? Thunberg: Could we, instead of saying reopen would it be, what about re-wording it to say remains temporarily closed until all options can be further studied. I agree with you on adding something in there about the signage but I don’t think, the signage doesn’t need to be updated unless there’s further safety measures. I think you called that out but rather than the motion 18 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 saying will reopen I would prefer it saying remain temporarily closed until further exploration of safety measures. Carron: So basically you’d want to table it. You’d just want to table it? Thunberg: I think it needs to remain closed for the season because we don’t have an answer and to be honest I don’t think an answer is going to be found and put into this park. If Todd is saying that variances would need to be explored and what not, realistically nothing’s going to happen this season. I’m not saying table it forever. I think with the, we just launched an advisory committee for a park master plan and again going back to the example of pickleball. We didn’t talk about that 3 years ago and it’s now a frequent topic of conversation. Now that we’ve, for the next year developing a park master plan, that’s a great opportunity to continue if we wanted to continue to explore this and what would be needed. Whether it’s a new location if that’s possible. Whether it’s permanent closure or whether it is exploring variances that hey if that shelter, I agree that you’d have to build something only big enough to prevent the angle. You may not need to cover the whole thing but we don’t know if that’s even possible with the variances that Todd mentioned so I don’t think it’s, I’m not saying table it and just not revisit it. If that was the case I would just say keep it closed. Carron: Well that’s why I kind of reworded it that we’d reopen once it is installed. If it can’t be installed it wouldn’t be reopened. Hoffman: Your motion includes a temporary structure which given a forecast of the kind of rain that has to flood that thing, you can just go down there and remove that before that occurs and so that’s why I’m saying if you do a temporary structure you’re likely not going to seek a variance. You’re going to take, you’re going to purchase a moveable batting cage. Transport it to that site. Stake it down. It’s going to stay there and if you had a flooding situation you would remove it before that water approached this site. That’s different than, to get a variance to create the kind of structure that you’re looking at in Eden Prairie is likely very challenging. Primarily the floodplain is easier than the waterway. The waterways are directly adjacent to this site and constructing, you have setbacks from those waterways for facilities and so a temporary structure is a more viable option. Kelly: We currently have a motion out there to reopen the archery range after we have safety measures put up and signage. Is there a second? Scharfenberg: Well just I would ask Brent are you willing to consider changing the language per Luke’s suggestion? Carron: Can you be more specific Steve in what regards. 19 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Scharfenberg: Well with respect to instead of saying that it will reopen that the, something to the effect that the archery range would remain closed at this time until staff considers additional recommendations for temporary structures that would allow us potentially to reopen the range. Carron: Yeah I guess that’s fine if we want to discuss it. Kelly: Would you like to withdraw your motion? Carron: No. Kelly: Okay. Then we’re still looking for a second on the original motion. Is there a second? With no second the motion fails. Is there a new motion out there? Hoffman: Chairman can I just provide some clarification I think on what the process would be here? This body closed the archery range temporarily. You can reopen it as well. But for the fact if you start purchasing equipment that’s going to take a budgetary approval which would require City Council action. So if your motion is to keep it closed. Have staff present you with an option that we think is viable, which would include a budgetary recommendation, and then you present that to the City Council. If they approve that budgetary recommendation then by that action they’re saying they agree with that recommendation. Then that would be purchased in 2017 and installed and by that motion if you say, if that action is approved then it reopens when this equipment is put in place in the spring of 2017. So just some structure to how this would all take place. If you want to reopen it tomorrow as is that’s up to your decision. Kelly: Thank you for the clarification Todd. Boettcher: Steve you had a good summarization there if you can put in legal terms. Carron: I’ll revise my proposed motion that this commission ask staff to provide us with cost and feasibility of a temporary structure and what it may look like along with any kind of additional signage so that we can consider that to improve the safety of this course. Or this archery range I should state, next meeting. Is that clear? Or should I restate it because I kind of. Kelly: Would you restate it. Carron: I apologize. I would recommend to the staff that staff provide the commission a proposal including cost to safely encompass the shooting range and any additional safety measures that we can consider at our next commission meeting. Kelly: What I’m not hearing is if the range stays open or closed. Carron: To caveat that I would say the range stays closed until that point. 20 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Kelly: Okay. We have a motion out there to keep the archery range closed and have staff check out safety cost and feasibility of a temporary structure meeting our safety needs at the next meeting. Does that sound correct? Is there a second? Boettcher: Second. Kelly: There is a motion as previously stated. It has been seconded. Carron moved, Boettcher seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission ask staff to provide the cost and feasibility of a temporary structure to encompass the shooting range firing line and any additional safety measures to consider at the next commission meeting, and that the temporary closure of the archery range be maintained at this time. All voted in favor except for Kelly and Hougham who opposed. The motion carried with a vote of 5 to 2. Hoffman: Chairman do you know what the final vote was? Kelly: By my, 5 to 2, does that sound right? Yeah that’s what I’m guessing. Hoffman: Thank you. Carron: Thank you everyone for coming and giving your input. Appreciate it. Kelly: Yep thank you very much for your time this evening. Okay, we’ll wait a moment. RECOMMENDATION CONCERNING REQUEST TO PROVIDE PICKLEBALL COURT LINES ON MUNICIPAL BASKETBALL AND TENNIS COURTS. Kelly: Okay moving onto G-2. Recommend concerning request to provide pickleball court lines on municipal basketball and tennis courts. Todd, you want to speak upon staff recommendations? Ruegemer: Yeah okay, we’re going to wait a quick second here. Oh, it’s quieting down, awesome. Thanks Chair Kelly and the rest of the commission. We’re going to talk about the sport of pickleball. Like Luke said 3 years ago we weren’t talking about pickleball so that’s how quick things can change. The sport of pickleball is very popular in our Chanhassen area as well as the southwest metro area. The popularity has led the City of Chan and the park and rec commission to take a look at providing facilities that currently exist at the Chanhassen Recreation Center. Recently the City did request, receive requests to place pickleball lines on a basketball court at Bandimere Heights Park and also the tennis court at North Lotus Lake Park. Similar to other cities organizations Chanhassen has created pickleball courts in community or larger neighborhood parks where it kind of fits the need of that geographic area, parking and proximity to neighboring residents. These courts by and large what we’ve developed have been 21 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 single use and dedicated to pickleball participants only. If lines were added at said basketball courts or other types of, on a temporary basis at tennis courts it could create potential conflicts with the same activities at the same time so staff is recommending that we not add pickleball lines on existing outdoor basketball courts for the following reasons. Number one, a basketball pad in staff’s opinion isn’t large enough to accommodate the pickleball courts with enough kind of transition room at the end. The physical footprint could fit on a basketball court but just with the I guess the end lines being too close to that, edge of the asphalt pad and the grass in staff’s opinion would create an uneven surface creating potential injuries with that and we also have the hoop, the steel pole for the basketball hoop that could potentially be in the way for that as well. Lack of a fence I believe hampers participants experience if you’re constantly going after your ball on a pass that didn’t get hit or that sort of thing. We had talked about a locked box. There are certainly other communities that provide lock boxes but staff is concerned that we’re kind of limiting our target area so if it’s only available for pickleballers how do we get that access code out to other participants to make it a public facility. They share public access to that as well. And then if we have an unlocked equipment box the possibility of stolen equipment exists out there that would be I think costly to the city. Again as we talk about other cities that don’t have dedicated courts for pickleball have done, have performed I guess or put down temporary lines on existing tennis courts kind of I think as a temporary basis until they get their pickleball needs figured out. The City of Chanhassen in my opinion has responded to the popularity of our pickleball group or community by adding these types of courts that are lit. Six courts at the Chan Recreation Center and they are extremely popular on all days of the week. Seven days a week, all hours of the day so it’s awesome that it has lights down there and they are definitely used. We’ve also taken a look at expanding our pickleball offerings by looking at adding an additional court or courts, 4 courts at Roundhouse Park and that will be built in the fall of 2016 and be ready for play sometime in probably early 2017 in the spring so having 10 dedicated pickleball courts really puts Chanhassen ahead of the curve when it comes to dedicated pickleball courts in our surrounding area. In addition the current 5 year capital, the CIP proposes a sport court that identified tennis and pickleball in the 2018 calendar year and that would satisfy the pickleball needs of the Bandimere residents that originally got moved up from 2020 to 2018 tonight is being proposed to that so 2 years earlier than originally proposed so staff recommends to not line pickleball courts in neighborhood tennis courts due to the number of dedicated pickleball courts we currently have and will have in the near future. The sport of pickleball continues to be popular in Chanhassen and the City has done a great job of addressing the needs of our residents. Staff will continue to monitor our pickleball members and make recommendations to the Park and Recreation staff for future improvements. So tonight staff is recommending that the Park and Recreation Commission take no action concerning the request to paint pickleball lines on outdoor basketball courts and neighborhood tennis courts. Kelly: Thank you Jerry. Now wasn’t the request was what, for 2 locations? Ruegemer: Correct. Bandimere Heights and North Lotus Lake Park. Tennis court and a basketball court. 22 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Kelly: And was the request just for the lines and not for any equipment? Ruegemer: I believe that is correct. Kelly: Okay, so that kind of means we don’t need a lock box for equipment. So with the popularity and people asking for it, and I know we have a shortage of pickleball courts, why are we not open to trying it? To see if it’s successful. If it causes problems we can always say it was not successful but I’m trying to figure out why it’s something we don’t want to try. Ruegemer: Really in staff’s opinion we have dedicated pickleball courts and to have dual uses with potential conflicts that’s where staff is coming from. We’re going to be having additional pickleball courts being built in the near future to satisfy I think even that growing need at Roundhouse Park and potentially now down at Bandimere Park so I think we have a number of pickleball courts coming down the line that will satisfy. Kelly: Okay. One other question, do we have any combination tennis courts/basketball courts? Ruegemer: We do. Kelly: Is that causing a lot of problems? Ruegemer: I have not heard of any. Kelly: Okay, thank you. Anybody else have a question? Boettcher: Do you know where we’re at right now as far as usage? I know at the Rec Center when the pickleball courts first opened it was people standing in line and you know don’t butt in line. Do you know where we’re at right now? Has it kind of tapered out or is it still high points, low points type of thing or. Ruegemer: Yeah we’re. Boettcher: Or does Jodi track that? Hougham: I tried to sign up for pickleball class last time and they were already 4 people overbooked so I couldn’t get in. Boettcher: Oh really, okay. Ruegemer: Yeah Jim the courts are very popular and we have requests for leagues all the time and people, there are waits at the courts. We have put up additional signage to be respectful of your time when you’re playing that other people to be respectful of their time and give them an opportunity to play as well. 23 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Kelly: Thank you. I think we have a visitor who would like to comment. Steve Williams: Yes, thank you. Kelly: Please name and address please and then address us. Steve Williams: My name is Steve Williams, 9291 Kiowa Trail in Chanhassen. We are on the lower part of Bandimere and we have the one basketball court in a very nice field that just never gets used. Even the basketball court does not get used very often. It’s a great little hidden spot. There’s even a parking lot down there and I’m disappointed that the staff has the short vision on the temporary side of their shortage of pickleball courts because there is and to say there’s a conflict when I live right across the street and there’s no conflict. It doesn’t exist. Your, the information you’re receiving is just inaccurate because that basketball court does not get used and so here we’ve got this asphalt pavement with a hoop on it and you hear the dribble twice a summer. Maybe 3 times a summer. It’s just, so how the idea came about, my neighbor bought his own pickleball net. We’re rookies at it. We’re not good enough quite to get to the big league courts yet and we said why not, let’s go down to the basketball court and we chalked in our lines and you’re correct that it is, the lines fit in but it could stand to be a little bit bigger. If you had a little bit more of a perimeter around the basketball court so but to us there’s no concerns of injuries if we, the good ones aren’t going to play there and the rookies probably will and so I called Todd right away and said Todd, instead of us chalking it can’t we just get someone to put temporary or put permanent lines on this thing so we don’t have to chalk it and we’ve got our own net and we can put our net up and we’ll just you know kick it around and he goes great idea and so he put that recommendation in to the staff apparently and the staff talked about it but I do agree that we are short, even though we’re doing a great job we are short of pickleballs and yes this wouldn’t be ideal. I came here actually hoping to talk about increasing the size and putting a fence in because he’s correct that all those things do need to be in for you not to get frustrated with chasing down the ball but the rookies don’t really mind that. They don’t know what they’ve missed yet and I’m classing myself as that and I think it’s a great opportunity to have the rookies kind of find a private little court where they can set up their own net and feel comfortable playing the game of pickleball in an area that that slab does not get used and I think lining it would be so simple and such a minimal cost to the City and I’ll come back next year and ask for it to be expanded and put a fence in but just starting there I think is not a lot to ask. Thank you. Scharfenberg: Mr. Williams before you leave. Steve Williams: Yeah. Scharfenberg: First of all thank you for coming tonight and expressing your request for this but also one of the topics that we’re going to take up after this is our CIP budget and things and one of the topics is building a sport court that will house pickleball at Bandimere and that is in the budget. 24 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Steve Williams: 2018. Scharfenberg: And we’re looking at moving that up to 2018. Right now it’s not in until 2020. Steve Williams: Yeah. Scharfenberg: But we’re looking at moving that up so I just wanted you to be aware, if you. Steve Williams: I had read that yeah. Scharfenberg: Okay, alright. Steve Williams: Thank you. Kelly: Thank you Steve. Steve Williams: Yeah you’re welcome. Kelly: Any other comments? Questions? Thunberg: I guess similar to Cole what your questions were if it’s, if we, if this is a good spot to just paint the lines and that’s all that’s being asked I don’t see a ton of harm in testing that out at this park or even a second location and just seeing how it gets used and if there are conflicts then we can learn from it next year so it’s a temporary test. However to staff’s recommendation if it did, if we were looking at putting in a lock box or a fence at these locations I would hold off on investing any money in that because of the CIP conversation and what, Jerry what you called out on you know next year going in at Roundhouse and then Bandimere the following year. Because we are investing money in that and those will be dedicated facilities I wouldn’t be for spending money on a temporary fix when we have a real solid solution coming up the next couple years but if it’s something where we can just paint lines and people can bring their own equipment I wouldn’t see any harm in that. Kelly: Anybody want to make a motion? Thunberg: Well before I make a motion is North Lotus Lake Park a similar sized slab to Bandimere Heights? Similar situation? Hoffman: Tennis court we’re talking about. Thunberg: Oh that one’s a tennis court. Hoffman: And that does currently have both tennis and basketball on it now. 25 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Thunberg: If lines were painted there we wouldn’t be doing anything, we wouldn’t need to do any lock box or anything? It could be the same situation? Hoffman: It can be. Then that begs the question will anybody show up. Carron: Or I guess my question if you have basketball, tennis and pickleball all on the same slab, when do you start getting confused? I don’t know. I don’t play pickleball but that’s a lot of lines. Thunberg: I propose a motion that city staff paint pickleball lines as a temporary pickleball court at Bandimere Heights Park and potentially North Lotus Lake Park. Not invest in any lock box or additional. Hougham: I second that motion. Kelly: There’s a motion out there that we, the City temporarily put lines at Bandimere Heights and North Lotus and not invest any other money or lock boxes or equipment. Yes Todd. Hoffman: Clarification, he said potentially. Scharfenberg: Yeah that’s what, I want to clarify that is what does potentially mean? If it’s either, yeah it’s either one or the other. You know my opinion would be, I don’t see anybody from North Lotus Lake here and I have some questions putting 3 sports onto a tennis court. You know I’m fine with just painting the basketball court at Bandimere Heights. Thunberg: Did the North Lotus Lake come up from somebody else submitting that request? Hoffman: Via email. Thunberg: Okay. I’d just like a second location if you’re going to test something. Just to have it beyond one specific use just to see if a person or other groups of people do utilize it. If nobody does I guess I still look at it no harm, no foul so I’ll reword this taking out the word potentially. I propose a motion that staff paint temporary pickleball lines on Bandimere Heights Park and North Lotus Lake Park tennis court but refrain from investing any money in additional equipment. Kelly: There’s a motion out there that the City put up temporary pickleball lines at Bandimere Heights and North Lotus Lake and not spend any money on equipment. Is there a second? Hougham: I second that. Kelly: There’s a motion with a second. 26 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Thunberg moved, Hougham seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to paint temporary pickleball lines on the basketball court at Bandimere Heights Park and North Lotus Lake Park tennis court but refrain from investing any money in additional equipment. All voted in favor, except for Commissioners Carron and Scharfenberg who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 2. Kelly: I have it 5 to 2 is my count Todd. RECOMMENDATION TO CITY COUNCIL, 2017-2021 PARK AND TRAIL ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM. Kelly: So next on the agenda, we had a work session this evening at 6:30 that went to about 7:20 where we discussed the CIP program and made the agreement was for some minor changes so however we need, if we want to discuss that further we can or do we want to move forward and make a motion since we spent some time on it already. Carron: I have a couple clarifications. Kelly: Go ahead. Carron: We were talking about 2017 city signs. That was omitted inadvertently from 2017, is that correct? Hoffman: (Yes). Carron: Does the sum of that equal $100,000? Hoffman: $60,000. Kelly: $60,000. Carron: So the recommendation is at $2.810. However the bottom would be $2.77 Is that correct? Kelly: So did we originally have it in in 2017 or 2018 Todd, do you remember? Hoffman: They were originally in 2016, moved to 2017. Kelly: Okay, thank you. I’m sorry, go ahead. Carron: With the addition of 60K into 2017 the bottom number is it correct that would be $2.77? Not the $2.81? 27 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 Kelly: Yeah the total number would increase by $60,000. Todd he’s looking at your proposal. Hoffman: Correct. Kelly: This sheet. Hoffman: I thought we were talking about Cole’s number… Carron: That’s my clarifications. Kelly: Okay so the way I see it from what we discussed we’re going to move the sport court from 2020 to 2018. We’re going to move the Bandimere community shelter from 2018 to 2020. We’re going to add signage for Lake Susan and Bandimere in 2017 for $60,000 and everything else remains as listed is what I understand from our work session today. Scharfenberg: I thought we were going to eliminate the Lake Ann parking lot expansion. Kelly: Oh yes right. I’m sorry. Hoffman: We’re going to leave it in there but you’re just not going to designate the funding source so the recommendation to build it and then allow others to decide where that funding is. Kelly: Allow the development CIP to build it. Scharfenberg: And that’s also true with respect to Sunset Ridge Park playground replacement correct? Kelly: Correct. Scharfenberg: Okay. Carron: With that I’ll make a motion that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the 2017 to 2021 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital Improvement Program totaling $2,770,000 to complete the following projects as listed except with the revision of Bandimere Sport Court being moved up to 2018, and the Bandimere Community Park Picnic Shelter be moved to 2020 and the additional of the Bandimere and Lake Susan signs for $60,000 to be included in 2017. Kelly: We have a motion out there for the 2017-2021 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital Improvement Program. It is the proposed motion as is with 3 changes. One is to add signage at Lake Susan and Bandimere for 2017. One is to change the Bandimere 28 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 community shelter from 2018 to 2020. And one is to move the sport court at Bandimere from 2020 to 2018. Is there a second? Thunberg: Second. Kelly: Motion has a second. Carron moved, Thunberg seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council approve the 2017 to 2021 Park and Trail Acquisition and Development Capital Improvement Program totaling $2,770,000 to complete the projects as listed with the revision of Bandimere Sport Court being moved to 2018, the Bandimere Community Park Picnic Shelter be moved to 2020 and the additional of the Bandimere Park and Lake Susan Park signs for $60,000 to be included in 2017. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. Kelly: Motion passed with changes. Thanks everybody for going through all that earlier tonight. REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. Kelly: Do we have any committee member reports? Probably not. Oops, sorry. Boettcher: I actually got to sit in the front of a police car 3 weeks ago. First time ever. Totally different view. Kelly: Were there handcuffs on or not? Boettcher: No screen in front of me. You know the doors actually worked when you pulled on the handle. No, it was for National Night Out and it was really interesting. We went to 4 different neighborhoods really to see, and I mean we went in neighborhoods I didn’t even know that existed in Chanhassen. I guess I don’t get out enough but the officer that I went with, Matt Burke was it Todd? Hoffman: Becklin. Boettcher: Okay, anyway I called him Matt. He was very professional about everything. And when we get to the location you know I’m wearing my shirt and shorts and he’s in full uniform and people were looking at me thinking I was his supervisor. They said oh you’re out of uniform. I said yeah I just got to keep an eye on this guy. He did let me run the lights and the siren. I had to hip check a couple little kids wanting to get in there, like no it’s my turn. Get out but it was really enjoyable. I mean to get out and see the 4 different neighborhoods. The people that were out there and they were just so appreciative of somebody, just anybody coming out and 29 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 talking to them. A couple of concerns that we heard about, and the officer was already aware of them and I voiced one in particular about where I live and the way stops at stop signs and he says well, I worked 2:00 p.m. to 2:00 a.m. and I sit out there and I watch them 2 nights a week. I go okay, I’ll shut up. You’re doing a good job so it was a lot of fun if anybody can do it in the future it was very interesting. Totally different view from the front seat. Kelly: You’re used to that back seat. Boettcher: Yeah, totally different. Kelly: Thanks for letting us know Jim. ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET. Kelly: Getting into the administrative packet, Jerry everybody loves you again though we have some wasp problems over at Lake Ann it looks like. Ruegemer: What problem? Kelly: Wasp. Ruegemer: Oh wasp. Yeah an annual situation. Park maintenance is fully aware of it and try to take care of the problem. We had Lake Ann Adventure Camp out there the last 2 weeks so we had plenty of bug spray and so staff was down there. Concession staff is on it. Maintenance staff is on it. Playground staff is on it so it’s just a reoccurring problem with picnics and. Kelly: Right with food you’re never going to get them. Ruegemer: Right. Kelly: Thank you for that. Anything else Todd in the administrative packet you want to point out to us? Hoffman: Yes please. Just a form of inspiration. So we’re talking about a 25 year plan and we’ve gone backwards 50 years to the first Comprehensive Park Plan addressed to this body. Park and Recreation Commission, February 20, 1969 from Brauer and Associates and do they developed a plan with the Park and Recreation Commission. That plan inspired the Village to purchase Lake Ann Park so this plan resulted in the purchase of Lake Ann Park so just again to point out the importance of planning. This City was doing it 50 years ago. This body was doing it 50 years ago. You’re about to embark on another one with the park systems master plan starting in 2016-2017 so these planning exercises do make a difference. I would venture that everyone agrees Lake Ann Park certainly has made a difference to our community. If you’re interested somebody stop by the office. We can show you the parchment paper plan which 30 Park and Recreation Commission – August 23, 2016 resulted once Lake Ann Park was purchased. The first master plan which was drawn for Lake Ann Park back in 1970. Kelly: Thank you Todd. Go ahead. Scharfenberg: Can you clarify again with the email that was sent out regarding the advisory group and some of those spots that have gone unfilled. Just clarify again how that is taken care of. Hoffman: We’re down to one spot now unfilled. That is the Southwest Chamber rep so if you know a business owner in town that would like to be involved. There are 2 others, both District 276 reps came in last night after the council meeting so they will be appointed by the committee at their first meeting and then whoever is named to that other position so there’s one opening remaining and that is a Chamber of Commerce representative and so if you know somebody that would be interested, talk to them and then send us their name. Scharfenberg: Okay. Kelly: Thank you. Any other comments or questions, or does somebody want to put it to the question? Boettcher moved, Scharfenberg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 7 to 0. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 31