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PRC 2016 10 25 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 25, 2016 Chairman Kelly called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Cole Kelly, Luke Thunberg, Jim Boettcher, Jennifer Hougham, Steve Scharfenberg, and Lauren Dale MEMBERS ABSENT: Brent Carron, and Rick Echternacht STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent PUBLIC PRESENT: Eric Roloff 9413 River Rock Drive Marco Rasgattino 9141 River Rock Drive Jon Gilbert 1641 Jeurissen Lane APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Chairman Kelly approved the agenda as presented. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Kelly: Any public announcements tonight Todd? nd Ruegemer: Commissioner Kelly just wanted to invite everybody to the 32 Annual Halloween Party this coming Saturday night out at the Chanhassen Recreation Center. Time is 5:30 to 7:30 Saturday night. Kids are all welcome ages 2 to 13 and we’ll have a interactive show, magic show out there as well so games and hayrides and lots of treats for the kids so if anybody would like to go out there, like to volunteer let me know. We can put your name down for that and if anybody has any questions I will entertain that. Kelly: You do know that Mr. Incredible and the Good Witch are making another appearance this year. Ruegemer: We do, thank you so much. Kelly: Thank you for the announcement. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Boettcher moved, Thunberg seconded to approve the verbatim and summary Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated September 27, 2016 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to 0. CONCEPT PLAN REVIEW, AVIENDA REGIONAL/LIFESTYLE CENTER. Kelly: Now we’re getting right into new business. Concept plan review, Avienda Regional Lifestyle Center. Todd would you like to speak to us about that a little bit? Hoffman: Be glad to. Thank you Chairman Kelly, members of the commission and also those present in the audience. We’ll talk a little bit about the, talk a little bit about the process and then Chairman Kelly will also guide the commission through and the audience this evening for the presentation. So we’re at concept level review and comments for Avienda. I don’t believe we have a representative of their group tonight. We have neighbors here. And that’s not unusual at the concept level. Once you, once we get to the preliminary PUD and the final PUD level and you’re recommending actual conditions of approval regarding parks, trails, park fees, I would bet you there’s going to be someone in the audience…so we’ll see if anyone shows up tonight. Otherwise what we’re looking for is really some guidance for them as the applicant on what would be some basic conditions for both parks and trails as we move through the review process tonight. So let’s just go through a short presentation. Get familiar with the site. It’s a very large site. Probably the largest potential commercial site left in our city and again it’s important to remember that it does take a rezoning to make this commercial so that’s the reason for the PUD is that typically a PUD or a planned unit development has even a higher level of requirements than if it was a standard or straight development so if this was a straight development it was already zoned commercial and they met all the requirements of the City they could just come in and the City would need to approve it. That’s not the case in a PUD. It’s not currently zoned commercial. It doesn’t have to be zoned commercial but the PUD process that gives an applicant an opportunity to present something that would go above and beyond the normal commercial type development in order to entice the City and the neighbors and residents to say yeah, that’s a good idea. Let’s do that in our community. So Avienda concept, this evening parks and recreation commission action is to provide the applicant a detailed review of the park and trail rec needs as described in the City’s Comprehensive Plan. That will be required as conditions of approval of any future final planned unit development application. Proposing high end and medium density residential totaling 22 acres. Currently 726 units and that’s all in the south and southwest and the west side so buildings here. Right next to the Bluff Creek Overlay woodland that we’ll talk about. So buildings here. Apartments in this location. And then townhome between what would be preserved single family residential and the commercial to the east so you have a separation or transition there with townhomes at that location. 50 acres of commercial regional which is generally in the center and then conservation of 15.88 acres within the primary zone of the Bluff Creek Overlay District. And so that wooded area is in the primary zone of the Bluff Creek Overlay District. That overlay says it shall be preserved. If there are development rights within that woods those would be transferred out and so you can’t develop on bluffs. You 2 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 can’t develop in certain sensitive areas but if there’s an area of that woodland that could be cleared or partially cleared and developed then whatever could go there should be moved out and placed in a higher density out in the normal flatter development area and so that’s the goal of the preservation. The Bluff Creek preservation is to preserve it as an integral part of the Bluff Creek watershed. Office uses are currently proposed on just about 15 acres and that’s generally on the north side along Lyman Boulevard. Right-of-way is estimated 11 acres and currently there are 3,855 parking stalls shown on the diagram. I assume that’s shown all as surface parking and then there would be additional parking for the apartment units. This is the proposed site. Highway 212 slicing diagonally and then Lyman Boulevard to the north and Powers Boulevard on the east. Neighborhoods located in this area would be the Preserve, Camden Ridge to the south, Pioneer Pass in this location and as we were talking about before the official start of the meeting this road is once connected through is really going to be convenient and provide a very attractive both neighborhood for the neighbors and visitors, the residential traffic but then also the people that are coming there to shop and I think it’s really just going to be very desirable part of our city to live in and to do business in. The concept site plan, the same plan that we’re looking at on the larger board and again as a park and recreation commission you’d be talking about trail connections. Walkability. Where are the 712 units that are, have people living within them. You know that’s at least 1,500 residents probably. Where are those folks going to gather in a setting to meet and greet one another. If you think about recreation at least at a totlot or a play lot level, there is one just to the west but that’s private. That’s not a public park in the Preserve and so we need to have the applicant thinking about where are these people going to gather in a public open setting. Where are they going to walk their dogs? Where are the trail loops going to be and so far at this level that’s not really shown and so one of your obligations tonight is just to describe to them what that would look like or feel like for the neighborhoods so they can accurately reflect that in some of their future plans. Comprehensive park plan calls for a neighborhood park to be located within half a mile of every residence in our community and community park within 2 miles and the lifestyle center, and we’ll show a map here at the conclusion of these comments. The proposed lifestyle center is situated within the community park service area of Bandimere Park and Chanhassen High School campus and so when you’re capturing park dedication dollars that’s what you’re doing. You’re taking it from this development and then you’ve already utilized it or you will utilize it in the future at these larger community park settings and then the proposed residential housing within the concept lies on the outer most limits of the half mile service area of any existing parks and we’ll show that as well so Chanhassen, parks like Chanhassen Hills, Power Ridge Park, if you were to live in this area you may go to those on an infrequent basis because there’s quite a few barriers to get there so even though they are within walking distance they’re not going to be your most common recreation destination. You would want something closer for this neighborhood to be able to gather and utilize. So the applicant should provide opportunities for informal recreation close to home. Unstructured active recreation such as field court, field games, court games, play equipment, trail opportunities and they need to be connected by a trail network. Should be flat land. Well draining. To fulfill the comprehensive park plan guidance for providing neighborhood parks an application needs to include a private or a public neighborhood park component and currently we don’t have that shown on any of the concept plans. The City 3 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 standard is to provide an acre of actively programmed public or private park space for every 75 residents and so people can do that math. You know it would be a sizeable site but when we’re talking over 100 acres there is room to accommodate something like that. This project will need to incorporate recreational space adjacent to the proposed housing and the park site or the recreation site should seek to be accessible to the residential units in a barrier free pedestrian manner and so there are a lot of roads. We need to make sure that it’s on the right side of the road. One side or the other you’re going to have to cross Bluff Creek Boulevard and so how they treat that intersection as a pedestrian, this intersection here will be important. How this intersection is treated for pedestrians. So there’s the park service map and their square, I know it’s kind of tough to see but their square property is right here and it’s just on the fringe of this black line which is the high school. It’s on the fringe of this black line which is Bandimere Park and then barely on the fringe of Pioneer Pass Park, Power Hill Park and Chanhassen Hills Park and so it really is in what we would call a park deficient area and when you’re working with that many residences, 712 homes that’s again a sizeable commitment that we have an obligation to those future residents to make sure that the applicant addresses their parks and recreational and trail needs adequately. Scharfenberg: Todd does the Preserve have a private, do they have their own little park within their neighborhood. Hoffman: Private totlot, yep. Scharfenberg: Okay. Hoffman: So the Preserve has public trail connections to the Bluff Creek area and then their private totlot and so they would have paid park fees to invest in other public amenities and then they developed their own totlot whereas in Pioneer Pass to the south we did not take the park fees to develop the park. Also just want to let audience folks know they will have a chance to talk to the commission as well once we’re done here and then the commission will respond and ask questions of staff and any audience members. So just 2 or 3 more slides talking about the comprehensive trail plan and so the trail plan includes existing trails located to the north, east and the southwest to the proposed lifestyle center PUD. All proposed structures and space within the PUD need to be connected by a combination of pedestrian walkways, sidewalks and trails to these existing pedestrian trail corridors. Existing trail improvements include Lyman Boulevard trail, the Powers Boulevard trail and the Bluff Creek Boulevard trails and when the Bluff Creek trail, or when Bluff Creek Boulevard is extended there should be a full trail on both sides because it is a significant barrier and many people who choose to recreate in the area just won’t cross. They’ll just utilize their side and then go back in some kind of a loop to their home. Consideration should be given to provide a pedestrian connection through the Preserve woodlands to the Camden Ridge development via Miranda Way and we’ll take a look at that on the trail plan so Miranda Way includes a fire lane which is stubbed to the north on the east side of that wood line. What I think is going to happen there and what I think the City will be proposing is that that’s connected as an emergency fire lane or emergency access but then it 4 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 would be barricaded with knock down barricades but it would act as a full pedestrian access to the north and south for all of the different folks in those neighborhoods and you’ll see that come through as a condition through our public safety division or planning division and then we can talk about it as a trail requirement. Additionally an internal trail loop taking advantage of the terrain and views along the southern edge of the property should be included in the plan. Currently that’s not shown. There’s really not a lot of pedestrian improvements shown but that southern exposure to the pond which is adjacent to Highway 212 would be a great looping type trail. It’s on the same side of the road as the multi-family and then they would have to loop back up to Bluff Creek Boulevard. That would be a nice connection and so then that’s what the last bullet says. A neighborhood style trail loop that affords individuals and their pets residing with Avienda opportunities for daily recreational activities is critical to the livability of the proposed development. So this is the stub down at, this is called the little street called Miranda Way. It comes out of Camden Ridge and that needs to connect up to the top and then the trail connections, Bluff Creek Boulevard both sides, south and north to connect to the existing trail which is in the red on Powers and the existing trail on the north side of Lyman. This is one area that you’ll want to keep an eye on. If this is a roadway connection and no street light goes there it’s going to be very difficult for pedestrians to cross and so again how that’s treated. You know should there even be trail connections going up to that location if you’re going to have to cross Lyman midstream without any type of a, you know stop light or any type of traffic control or roundabout. Whereas at this intersection you can cross at the light. Scharfenberg: Todd can you go back to the Camden Ridge and demonstrate again where that connection would go up to. Hoffman: So here, well it’s just going to get to the top. Where it goes we don’t know and so it’s going to connect into the housing area. Eventually it would need to come, excuse me. So this is where it’s stubbed to. How they get to the top is unknown and where it ends up to the top. It would probably connect back up to some type of a trail connection or a street connection so if the thought is if Camden Ridge gets, you know if this roadway gets damaged by a flood or you know mudslide, landslide and you have to get into this area then you’re going to come down. You’re going to come down this fire lane and so it’s an emergency access since Camden Ridge only has one access now and that’s just part of good planning in a residential community. If you have a significant neighborhood with only one access you’re limited if you have an emergency type of a situation and when you have a roadway that close and adjacent to a bluff, you know if you ever have a 12 or 14 inch rain event that takes out that kind of a roadway, then you need another emergency access. That’s the thought process. Hougham: Is it a full road or just like a one lane? Hoffman: It’s a small road right now and how it will be developed at the top yet is not designed. Most likely I would characterize it as a small road but it will be utilized as far as I understand as a trail until it’s needed as an emergency access. That concludes staff’s comments and would like to hear from neighbors if they would like to offer any comments and then answer any questions 5 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 of the commission before you give direction to the applicant and the direction you give tonight, your list of items that you would like the applicant to look at will go to the Planning Commission. Kate Aanenson our Community Development Director and then she’ll include those in the Planning Commission review of this process. So that’s being held coming up in the next weeks. Kelly: If we have anyone who wants, any guests who want to make a comment please give us your name and address and then you can address the commission. So you come up here to the podium so you’re speaking into the microphone and then name, address. Eric Roloff: Eric Roloff and I live in Camden Ridge, 9413 River Rock Drive South and I think Todd addressed it. Mainly my concern is just that access road for Miranda Way. That little stub road. I don’t want that to really be a full road where it’s a cut through road where you get a lot of traffic through the shopping center and the neighborhood but if it’s an emergency access with knock down barricades and you know like a walking trail access I think that’d be fine. So I just wanted to kind of let you know. Kelly: Okay, thank you Eric. Eric Roloff: Yeah. Kelly: Please come up. Jon Gilbert: Hi my name’s Jon Gilbert. I’m at 1641 Jeurissen Lane which is right down in this corner, right there and I’m guessing that none of us are Chicago fans or Indian fans and hence perhaps the turnout. And maybe the rain or politics. So I have some questions about some of the woodlands that are affected and then the access point from here certainly makes sense with a knock out. Perhaps there was a missed opportunity or there is another opportunity that still exists further south coming from Pioneer Trail. It goes under 212. There’s really no immediate access into Camden Ridge at that cul-de-sac but there is an opportunity perhaps to tie in, work around to the front. Let’s see to the front of Camden Ridge and up this side to connect for a trail. You can still have the knock out, go from here to here but there’s still other opportunities because the, coming from down here along the bike trail it comes further south and loops around and dead ends before you get to that retaining wall or that sound barrier so that’s just some notes to think about. Audience: Are you talking trail? Sorry the bicycle trail. Jon Gilbert: Yeah the bicycle trail that’s there. Also when it comes to I guess the mandate on the 2030 Comprehensive Plan or any MUSA plans or AUAR’s, wondering what other information that you might get from that before you start making decisions and making recommendations to other councils because certainly once they start taking a look at the area I think they’ll find that maybe things don’t fit the way that they’re presented here. There may be 6 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 need to make some changes to the number of units based upon some of the zoning regulations. I know you guys don’t get into that but certainly it looks like they really stacked up on the R-16’s and the R-12’s and so that’s a concern to me primarily because it’s kind of in my back yard. I do have a question on how many people did receive the mailers from the City. I don’t know if it only went to the people that live adjacent to the property meaning that everybody up in here would have been excluded from the mailing. Hoffman: No it was fairly large. Much larger than would be required and so it went, I would say about halfway into the Preserve neighborhood then down into your neighborhood and across and up so. Jon Gilbert: Perfect. That’s great. When the community, when they did their original community meetings they had limited it to people who were directly adjacent to the property but we had some pretty good communications with the group and I know they want to do the right thing but we’re also looking to make sure that they’re not over selling or under reporting. So the AUAR I guess my question would be do you have to wait until that’s presented before you might make some recommendations because things could change because of what they determine has changed over the last many years. My understanding is that this area up here was actually supposed to be residential at one time and everything that was up at the other end of Pioneer Pass was going to be industrial or commercial so I’m throwing a lot at you. I have more comments and questions but I’ll give you a chance to. Hoffman: Yep I’ll be glad to answer all of those questions. Your name sir? Jon Gilbert: Thanks. Jon. Hoffman: Jon. So let’s start where you left off. So the AUAR at conceptual level what the commission recommends is just going to be you know if they continue to move forward, if the Planning Commission says okay and the council what the AUAR describes is what they’re delivering. Go ahead. Scharfenberg: What is AUAR? Hoffman: Alternative urban, AUAR. Alternative urban use, somebody know the acronym? Alternative urban use. Jon Gilbert: Alternate review. Thunberg: Alternative Urban Areawide Review. Hoffman: Thank you. Scharfenberg: Alright, thank you. 7 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Hoffman: There it is. Does that help any? That doesn’t describe it any better does it? It’s about what the roads can support. It’s a study about what the roads can support. What the land can support. What the neighborhoods can support so that’s, but the park commission doesn’t deal with that. A lot of the other things you mentioned they do so the woodland and so what they’re proposing there is taking out some of that woodland and what I described earlier is, the goal is to preserve it all and so where the line is, you can find the line for the Bluff Creek overlay, yep. Correct. Jon Gilbert: Which runs around. Hoffman: Correct, higher. Jon Gilbert: A lot higher and into this area which is supposed to be protected. Hoffman: Yep, correct. Jon Gilbert: Alright. Hoffman: And so that’s a negotiation. Would the council allow them to go into that and take some of that out? If they did what would they get in return for that and so that would be a negotiation. Otherwise if they’re not going to give them anything in return the council is likely to say you know what, you’re going to stay out of that area. But some of this can be developed likely and so then you have to take out that development potential and allow them to do that somewhere else. You just can’t take somebody’s land and say you know this is developable property but we would like to keep it as open space. You don’t get any use of it and so that’s a negotiation that goes through the process. Jon Gilbert: And that negotiation would transfer it to another area of the property or would be banked for later? Hoffman: Another area of the property. Jon Gilbert: Another area so it should stay within the property. Hoffman: Yeah. And it’s typically an up zoning of some sort and so you would up zone something else to preserve that. The parts of that that can’t be developed because they’re on slope or they’re in a sensitive area or they’re too close to a wetland, they’re in a setback you know some of the slopes over here and some of the slopes down here can’t be developed anyway and so they’re going to use it as green space. There is a green space requirement that would be included as a part of that. The trail networks, you’re making some good observations and so the trail, Miranda Way that comes up and that should be continued around the bottom side here to make some kind of a loop and so people could have, you know they wouldn’t have to enter the 8 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 retail space. They could just take that kind of experience and come down through and make some loops. The trails you have in Camden Ridge right now stop because we gain access to those trails when the land is developed and so through the subdivision process then we have the rights to go ahead and request or make a condition of approval that a trail goes in. South of the Highway 212 they haven’t developed yet. The landowner still owns the property. We don’t have access to it. He doesn’t want to sell it to us. I think people are utilizing that gravel driveway now to make a trail loop back up to Pioneer Pass, onto Pioneer Trail and up but until that land develops south of the road we don’t have access to it but it is in our Comprehensive Plan to make that connection. It’s the final piece. Bluff Creek goes for 7 miles. The Bluff Creek trail goes for 7 miles up to Highway 41. That’s the final piece that’s not in yet. When Bruce Jeurissen develops or does something to that property or if it takes so long that he just doesn’t do anything and there’s such a pent up demand to make that a connection then we either have to approach him again to get that property or start some type of negotiation after that. So I think that answers most. If I missed anything let me know. Jon Gilbert: Now I have a few more questions or ask for clarifications. So slope is a little steeper up behind my house. I recognize that and I don’t expect that it would ever, you know with 15-20 inches of rain would cause it sloughing down there when it’s already developed. I understand the need for the additional access for emergency equipment et cetera and that’s why I was suggesting connecting down there. I don’t know if there’s any way that that can be coordinated with Jeurissen just as a, if you’re considering it part of your long term plan. Hoffman: Oh to connect under 212? Jon Gilbert: Under 212. Hoffman: Yeah been looked at and not going to happen. Jon Gilbert: So with that I look at how much continuity there is with the vision that the City had, and I just moved here a few years ago but I’m sensitive to the area. Looking at the 2030 plan and the changes that have actually occurred since that was proposed and whether or not some of the changes that have already gone into place in the development would change the way that this might be looked at because you’re limiting yourself with the resources that you now have available and the next move will be even more limited because you’ve already banked something or passed it down the road. Kicked the can down the road as we’re hearing nowadays on the television. So let me shift gears a little bit when it comes to recreation. The private tot land over there, it’s small. It doesn’t meet the requirements I think of having 1 acre per 75 units I think it was so I did some quick math. I tried to do some quick math and came up with I think it was about a 6 acre exchange that you’d have based upon the 312 units that they put here so that’s supposed to be 312 units. 128 lots so they have to have 3 stories of parking there certainly. The presenters or Avienda has shown us alternative approaches to what they could put inside the circle but outside the circle seems to be currently non-negotiable so as a citizen I’m concerned that or I believe that there could be opportunities to shift some of these things around because of 9 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 what the AUAR may find. Whether it’s light. Water runoff. What they’re trading for in the future because you’ve got several acres of land and older growth of trees back here. You’ve got wetland running down through here. I only know that because they asked permission from the developers early on and so I’m a little intimate with that area and I can see the value of having some paths through there but some of the features up there will likely be affected as a result of that. And so I just ask the commission if you guys would consider really holding off and making or throw an alternate, a variety of recommendations if you can based upon the potential for changes because, and I don’t know if you can or if the goal of the commission tonight is to say yeah go for it. There’s 2 more bites of the apple to really look at the. Kelly: Jon I think where we’re at is, we’re going to throw in ideas of what we’ve like to see in the end and if the concept plan changes it will end up coming back through us again and so we’re looking at what we see here is probably the plan and then we set our ideas in based on the plan we’re looking at and if that changes then we’ll see it again and we’ll make new recommendations. Hoffman: It will come back at preliminary PUD and they’ll make a recommendation about conditions of approval so if it’s approved what would the conditions of approval be. At that time the plan will be much more refined. If it meets their needs for parks and trails they’ll be seeking park fee which is at this level eleven and a half thousand dollars per acre. They pay in a park fee which goes into the park fund which helps support parks and trails development in the community but there will still be some negotiation about what would be private and what would be public. You know we don’t know what their feeling is on that if they want to develop public amenities in this area or if they want them to be private. Controlled by their housing associations so that’s yet to be seen. Jon Gilbert: So they show several different plans for the inside of this and in one case they show an amphitheater of some kind. You’re going to take all that into consideration and then maybe there’s another bite of the apple when the PUD, when it moves forward it gets approved. Kelly: Right and our recommendations just have to be with parks and trails. We don’t make recommendations on what should be in there or shouldn’t be in there. That’s the Planning Commission. Jon Gilbert: Okay but I was thinking that might be a park feature that they’re trying to. Kelly: That would be a park feature. Jon Gilbert: Okay. Kelly: We could talk about yes. 10 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Jon Gilbert: And then just one last question. So the guide that you follow for what meets the City’s requirements for parks or a trail, is that based upon the 2030 or is that based upon the guidance’s provided for this PUD within the MUSA? Hoffman: 2030 comp plan. Jon Gilbert: Okay so that suggests that you’re going to be you know 40 acres I think over like today. You’ve got extra parkland already which would suggest that maybe things don’t need to be developed but I again I understand. You’re saying you can’t tell them not to develop this or you can and say because we want to preserve it and then they have to come up with another proposal within the working area. Hoffman: Yep the Comprehensive Plan is a guideline and everything after that is a negotiation and this body’s real concern will be with the people that move into there into the future and when they walk out their door they’re going to say you met our outdoor recreational socialization needs in a reasonable manner or did you let them just not provide anything for us and now we’re left finding our way someplace else and so that’s going to be their goal and how that’s achieved there’s a lot of ground to cover between now and then. Sometimes there’s a split where they’ll want to do half public and half private. I’m not sure if this commission will be interested in that. I doubt they’re going to say we’re going to give you, carve out a 6 acre public park in here and you’re going to make a neighborhood park as part of Avienda. I doubt that’s happening. They may say we’re going to do a lot more recreation type walking atmosphere down here and we think that will satisfy part of these people’s recreation needs and we’re going to do something over here. There’s just a lot of things to, lot of things to figure out. I don’t think this is anywhere close to what you’re going to see in a final plan. Jon Gilbert: I agree with that. For the folks that aren’t here maybe you folks I don’t know that you walk these trail systems at all in our neighborhood. They do get used a lot. There’s a lot of folks from further out than this location that use the trails on a regular basis and additional trails here are great. This is the southern exposure you were talking about for or were you talking about this? Hoffman: This. Yeah this. Jon Gilbert: Okay, I understand that. There was some, Avienda did bring up putting a trail system within this area. Hoffman: Probably some, like you said not 100 percent covered because then that goes against you know trying to preserve the, but having some access to it would be nice and I would imagine that’s going to be a combination of this trail and then something on the higher side leaving this bluff alone. Jon Gilbert: I would advocate for that. 11 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Jon Gilbert: Alright well there’s zoning questions that I have and density questions which I believe will probably change the outcomes in here but that’s not for this meeting. Thank you for listening. I appreciate your time. Kelly: Thank you Jon. Anybody else like to get up and speak? Okay we’re good. So now what we’re charged with is what do we want to see happen in this plan and like Todd outlined it’d be nice to see a trail on the southern edge. I think that’s a necessity, especially for the people that are going to be in those apartments and from what I read one of the apartments is probably going to be some kind of senior housing possibly. And my question is do we take the trail up along the townhouse area so they have a way out of their area onto the trail? I’m kind of in agreement with Todd if we don’t get a stop light, which since I use Lyman Boulevard I hope we don’t get another stop light. I don’t see a need for a trail to come in and out of the north side of the project at this time. Unless we, and I don’t think we have plans for a trail on the southern side of Lyman. Hoffman: No. Kelly: No so I don’t see a reason for that but I do want to make sure that we have the people that can come out of their apartments and their townhouses and there’s trails close by. They can hop on it without having to go into the center city to find where the trails are. So that would be some of my suggestions. I think also we definitely need some green spaces for people to gather as Todd mentioned and I don’t know if they can put out a specific area for dogs but there’s probably going to be a fair amount of dogs in the area so they really need some open spaces you know around the apartments and the townhouses to accommodate what the people’s needs are. And like Todd said they want to be able to walk out of their homes and be able to do a few things right there and how do we accommodate that and how do we make those people happy that they moved into Chanhassen they get access to our trails and some kind of park like activity right by their house. Other comments, thought? Thunberg: Todd I have a couple questions for clarification. So the guideline of 1 acre of parkland for every 75 people, as you were going through the presentation I think you said there was around 700 units or houses so 1,500 people so that’d be 20 acres of parkland per that guideline. Does the 15-16 acres of preserve count towards that 20 or if we were to follow that or is that truly a separate 20 of parkland? Hoffman: There’s a lot of things that can count towards that and so you can say part of these people’s recreational needs are going to be, they’re going to join a baseball league with their son or daughter or softball league and they’re going to get in the car and drive to Bandimere. Bandimere Park would meet some of that 1 acre per 75 people. That wood land is going to satisfy some of their recreational desires. When they want to take a walk in a peaceful area so it’s a combination of all the different amenities that they have. It doesn’t mean that you have to draw a half a mile circle, add up all the people and you have to have 1 acre per 75 in that area. 12 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 It’s a guideline. Then what I would encourage you to go after that is just to study the housing and say okay, if you don’t do anything here you know there’s going to be kids that are, and parents are going to go next door to a private recreation amenity and that’s not going to be neighborly for anybody and so you would at least want to have some kind of a gathering location for the moms and dads that have kids in this area and children and so you’re going to want to have something like that and so it’s just a guideline to say you know we have this requirement. It basically says that we want to provide parks and recreation services for our residents. You’re not showing anything now. You know show us something that’s going to satisfy those needs. Thunberg: Okay. Kind of leads me to the next question. In this packet, so you mentioned around 700 houses, if that was the number. In the packet it actually calls it out as 400-500 housing units and then 200 to 250 of like a hospitality or hotel. Does that change how we would look at any of the park and recreation needs if it was a hotel versus? Hoffman: It would. Hotels would not have the same requirement. Thunberg: Okay. Kelly: Other thoughts or comments? Marc Rasgattino: Can I make comments? Excuse me. Kelly: Please. Name, address. Marc Rasgattino: Yes my name is Marc Rasgattino. I’m living in River Rock Drive, 9141. I show you exactly where is my property is here. I want to emphasize the fact that in River Rock Drive we don’t have any alternative route of escape right now so I would find very beneficial if there would be some link between this road and the existing because it happens, it may happen. If something happened at the entry here there is no way even for a fire truck to enter to this community and it’s pretty big. Right now there is only a service road on this top corner so this connection to me would be very beneficial for this and yeah and this is going to be very critical point I agree because there is very poor visibility. It’s a slope and yeah you definitely need to put a traffic light if you decide to make a crossroad here. Ideally this would be the better spot because it’s flat, very good visibility but here yeah and this boulevard just. Hoffman: That may end up to be a right-in/right-out. Very doubtful without traffic control that you would have a full intersection there. Marc Rasgattino: Yeah and it’s, people here go easy 50 miles per hour down and especially nowadays… Hoffman: And this connection is our planning division and engineering division. They’ll be requesting that and asking for that. 13 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Marc Rasgattino: Yep, thank you. Kelly: Thank you Marc. Jennifer. Hougham: Yes. Todd can you talk to the walkability within the retail setting itself? It sounds like from how they set it out to be more of like a lifestyle center. A walkable thing. I don’t really see that by looking at it. Hoffman: I would agree. I would agree with that. So it’s not shown today. They’re talking about that’s what they want but they’re currently depicting that in any fashion so if you want to see more of that I would verbalize that to the applicant. Hougham: Okay. Thunberg: I would agree with that. I think some of the branding of Avienda was a healthy life, healthy way of life village and I know last year when these plans were under a different developer or different plan some of what was included was you know not this preserved woodland but separate area of a walking path around a pond or something like that. That was more of a nature walk on top of some of the parkland that would include like a playground. I think those are 2 things that I’d like to see so I agree with the idea of a trail around the southern edge. Green space and having that kind of just nature walking path outside of the preserve woodlands as well as a park and playground but to stick with kind of what it’s being branded as, I would agree with Jennifer. It’s not showing in this current plan and that is something I would like to see included. Hougham: And I from my perspective it’s coming more from an outsider as someone who would visit it and not be a neighbor to the facility what options are there for walking? As someone from the outside and not somebody from living there. And Todd another aspect here, the pond to the northwest corner is that like a flat land or is that sloped? Hoffman: Storm water ponding. Hougham: Okay. Kelly: Todd do you want to read off what our list is at right now? Hoffman: Trail in the southern edge. Green spaces for people to gather around the housing. Increase the walkability. Court yard type features in the retail area. And then some type of nature trail configuration in the Bluff Creek Overlay. 14 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Hougham: I believe in our meeting last month we discussed the amphitheater that was in some of the designs and that we would not want that to be included since we already use the City Center Park. Kelly: Right I believe that. Hougham: So I don’t know if we can give them that direction as well. Jon Gilbert: Can I ask for clarification? Sorry. Kelly: Of course Jon, please come up. Jon Gilbert: Again Jon Gilbert, 1641 Jeurissen. You mentioned the environmental pathway. You mentioned also in the Bluff Creek Overlay. I think Bluff Creek Overlay is in this area here. I thought the discussion was about the pathway here above the existing wetland. I thought that’s what I heard Luke say was about having something. Hougham: Yes. Jon Gilbert: Alright, thanks. Thunberg: I would agree with that. I think Todd the other thing you were mentioning was possibly like wood chip trails or something like that in the wooded area if there was just some nature trails within there, is that? Hoffman: Correct. Jon Gilbert: Okay, thank you. Hoffman: Yeah the vision has always been, at least from the, with this development this would serve a couple of uses. Access for recreation for some type of solitude walk would be part of that nature walk but then ultimate preservation of as much of it as can be. This would be, there might be a trail like you come up here and you head off this way. Go through the top part. Connect up all the way down along here. Back up and then you could just back home and then you also have the access, these people could come up. Neighbors down here could come up and do that same thing. They could go around you know, if you want to shop when you’re there you shop. If you’re just on a walk you walk and then you head back down home. Scharfenberg: So Todd just for clarification purposes with respect to that wetland area to the south there. Is that, who owns that? Hoffman: That’s MnDOT right-of-way. 15 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Scharfenberg: Okay. And is there any of that the City could access any of that? No? Hoffman: You can see it’s, there’s probably a wetland outside of the boundary of it. It’s just about all wetland. Scharfenberg: Right, okay. Hoffman: It’s actually a really nice restored wetland. You see a lot of wildlife in there. Scharfenberg: Yep. Hoffman: A lot of birds and water fowl. Scharfenberg: What I would add already is, with respect to some of the residential stuff. If there could be some park stuff with respect to either the stuff in the northwest corner or the apartments down that does something with that green space that’s, I don’t know if you put some Bocce ball court in there or you know something that has some green space that a neighborhood could access and do some things to. Jon Gilbert: Could you add platform tennis to Bocce ball? Paddle tennis. Scharfenberg: Jon you’re getting some courts over at Bandimere. You can go over to Bandimere. Jon Gilbert: Those are pickleball. Scharfenberg: I know pickleball. Hoffman: Did I hear some interest in having something recreation related both on the south half of Bluff Creek Drive and on the north half? If you’re giving them a recommendation on where you want to see these activity spaces. Kelly: Right because I think what we’re doing then is you’re hitting both residential areas and they’re a ways from each other so one would be more dedicated to the apartments and the way the land looks here if you’d have to go on the north side of the townhouses anyway so they’re each going to have their space whether they take their dogs out there or meet people out there. Hougham: Would the trails on the south end though suffice for the apartments and then you’d have a playground for the single family homes to the north? Kelly: That’s a possibility. 16 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Hougham: I mean I think it would maybe depend Todd on which one was the senior housing that wouldn’t necessarily be using the playground. Kelly: And again it was in the concept plans that it might be senior housing. Not necessarily. Hoffman: Yeah and you would, even if you have senior housing you’re still going to want some green gathering space. Kelly: Oh absolutely. Hougham: Yeah. Hoffman: The playground would just go out and it would just be more of a social area to gather. As the park commission knows public space is very important. It’s where people make these first connections in their neighborhood that often last a long time and the friendship builds and so that’s really what you want to see some type of, and likely that those are going to be private amenities and I would imagine this is just at a box level. They’re going to show those as we move forward and you just have to make sure that what you’re advising them to do or recommending that you would like to see is in agreement with what they’re going to propose in the future. Are the sidewalks and trails going to suffice on the north side for the office? They’re going to have a trail sidewalk on the loop road and those folks are going to be able obviously if you’re working there and you want to take a lunch hour walk where are you going to gravitate to? Are you going to gravitate to the south to go to the wood land and the southern trail loop so there needs to be an internal system there which will be built on that loop road. Pedestrian crossings work at roundabout. They’re not ideal but they can work fairly well. They typically occur farther…to the roadway. Kelly: So we don’t know if these black lines going around the circle are sidewalks, trail, we’re not sure what they are? That go right outside of the street. You’ve got black lines. Hoffman: That’s a right-of-way line so it’s not showing a trail. Kelly: That’s not a trail, okay. That’s a right-of-way line. So I would think we’d need some kind of sidewalk going around the inside for, especially for people that live there. They want to go around and see what’s going on. I would think a sidewalk would be my guess would be preferable to the developers rather than an asphalt trail but of course since I’m a biker I like to see asphalt trails everywhere. Scharfenberg: Todd from the northeast corner there of Powers and Lyman, is that a sidewalk that comes in from that corner at that diagonal level? Hoffman: Here? 17 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Scharfenberg: Yeah where that diagonal line is that comes in, is that? Hoffman: I don’t know what that’s denoting. It could be. Scharfenberg: I mean that would be nice if there’s sidewalk that you can walk directly in. I don’t know what this, is this where you’re pointing, where your thumb right there, is that just kind of? Hoffman: Office, office, this is all parking. Scharfenberg: Oh that’s parking. Hoffman: Yep. Scharfenberg: Oh. It would be nice if there could be sidewalks somehow coming through that. Hoffman: A direct connection. Scharfenberg: Direct connection into it, yeah. Hoffman: Yep, that’s a good idea. Jon Gilbert: If I may that’s just dividing the acreage in that corner much like the northwest corner there. Hoffman: But to note some kind of a formal pedestrian connection from that corner directly into the development. Scharfenberg: Right, yeah that would be great because it gets you up to the corner and you can cross then and access the different trails and that there. Marc Rasgattino: Excuse me, the same thing on the other corner? The black line towards the storm water. Hoffman: That’s just a property line. Scharfenberg: But ultimately it would be nice to have some walking trails. A trail that kind of goes through that, that connects up into the, into that neighborhood somehow. Hoffman: Yeah it would be nice to do some type of an internal trail network then that comes across and then connects up here. Scharfenberg: Right. 18 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Hoffman: So all these folks, yeah. So a trail connection that works through the townhouse. I think Commissioner Thunberg can speak directly to the little trail loop in Pioneer Pass. Amazing use. Thunberg: It’s used all the time. Even just it’s kind of 2 simple loops but it always has traffic on it and it does connect to the comment just previously on the townhouses. On the west side of Pioneer Pass Park, it does have some connections into that and that neighborhood has some internal sidewalks and trails and it is nice to have so I agree with adding that totally. Kelly: So Todd at this point what are we missing, anything? Hoffman: I think you’ve done a nice job. You know the direct trail link on the diagonal I think is the kind of thing that can easily be missed but when you think about it it makes perfect sense because now you’re coming to a fully controlled intersection where there’s pedestrian crossings at all 4 corners. Here you can see they show a semaphore. I don’t know that that’s going to happen. If it does then you can have full pedestrian connection here. Without it you really don’t want to direct pedestrians there. You want to bring them down to here and then bring them internal and so that, there are no pedestrian connections here. This pedestrian connection I think is important because you have dual trails and people will want to get off and then you have to get around this corner and so this will be some kind of a berming. You know landscaping berming and there would be a trail connection that would be included as a part of that. And then I think as they develop their plan you’re going to start to see those other spaces. The interior recreation component which is a valid, the people that I’ve heard testify on this in the past have said you know that’s what they’re expecting is some walkability. If I’m going to live there, if I’m going to move in and be a resident there I want to be able to walk into my downtown retail area. Shop then go out to dinner then walk home in a very comfortable setting. What you see here today does not provide that. So I have your items listed. I will, we will re-write these to make them as expressive as possible and then send those onto our Planning Commission and Planning Director Kate Aanenson and then we’ll see how the applicant responds. Really thank the neighbors for coming in. Encourage them to continue to be engaged. They’ll receive additional mail notification but then also just go onto our website and you’ll just click on Avienda and you’ll watch all of the developments there. It’s a big development. It’s been around for, the idea’s been around for quite some time. It was much more controversial between our downtown and this location in the early starts but I don’t see that. They’re really concerned now about just doing something different down here so it’s an added attraction to our area. It doesn’t just take away from the downtown. If it’s something different I think our downtown representatives, business representatives believe that people will come here and then also make their way downtown to take advantage of what the downtown offers as well. Kelly: Great, thank you very much Todd. Hoffman: Thank you. 19 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Kelly: And Eric, Jon and Marc thank you for your input tonight. 2016 PICNIC SHELTER RESERVATION PROGRAM EVALUATION. Kelly: Next we’ve got a report I believe from Jerry on the 2016 picnic site evaluation. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Kelly. Just wanted to go through the 2016 season. We had a total of 122 paid reservations this year. We did host a variety of events out there from reunions, weddings, anniversaries, birthday parties, graduations, that sort of thing so the most popular site was the Lakeside Pavilion at Lake Ann. That had a total of 46. Second was the Klingelhutz Pavilion that had 43 reservations and Lake Susan was third with 33 so of the 122 paid reservations we generated over $15,000 in revenue and with over 15,000 picnickers as well so a wide variety of you know kind of times throughout the course of the week and locations. People were pleased with the sites that we do have available for rent. They’re really popular in first part of June for graduation parties and weddings and we often have multiple reservations for those sites that we can’t accommodate because they’re already reserved so, but just kind of looking at the picnic reservations we did break it down by the type of customer making the reservation. The day of the week that their reservation was made and all that is for your review attached with the report. Obviously the commission is aware of all the paid reservations that we do have. When we send out a thank you letter we include the evaluation. Those are largely positive. There are comments from time to time that we take if there’s a maintenance item or something within our procedures that we need to change we’ll take a look at that and address that at that time so we do that so by and large they are mostly positive but negative comments are also taken a look at that we can address if there’s a situation that we need to fix. As is kind of a standard practice staff has been not booking the Lakeside or the Klingelhutz Pavilions during the month of July when CAA or local associations are having tournaments at Lake Ann Park just to help out with the, I guess with the large number of participants within the tournaments. We have had parking problems in the past with tournament participation, beach traffic, you know other general uses of the park itself so to help alleviate that problem, since tournaments have been larger in scale we’ve been not booking those 2 sites at Lake Ann. Obviously that has a positive result for the tournament participants but it has, it definitely does have an effect on our I guess total number of reservations that we have and revenue so we kind of look at it as a benefit to the tournaments and really the overall quality of the experience of not only the tournament participants but also beach users. If there is additional parking available they have a better time and not a negative. Kelly: Jerry is this the first year we’ve had the policy? Ruegemer: This is our second year we’ve done that. Kelly: Second year, okay. And it seems to be working pretty good. 20 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Ruegemer: It has been and really the revenue and really total number of picnics have been just about mirror images of each other from year to year so we seem to be kind of settling in for our numbers and our revenue at this point so staff is recommending that we continue that procedure and guidelines that we book out the picnic sites for the tournament I guess uses so we don’t have the parking. Kelly: Yeah it sounds like it makes it a better experience for everybody all the way around. Ruegemer: It does. Kelly: So I snuck into the administrative packet and I noticed you’re losing a little bit of love when it comes to the reservation fees which I know we discussed the fees last month a little bit and I think they’re quite reasonable and I know that you checked the cities around our cities to see that we’re in the ballpark and so even though we’re not feeling the love I think we do charge a very reasonable fee. Ruegemer: I think so too and you know we’ll talk about that next month for 2017. On the staff level that we are certainly talking about doing a potentially tiered approach to larger picnics. We do have a larger number of larger group or company picnics coming in that are in that probably 200 to 400 person range. Obviously that, you know for the picnic fee for a non-resident during the week obviously that is a relatively cheap fee that they’re paying on an overall scope of what their budget is so obviously that’s putting additional pressure on you know garbage and restroom situations and that sort of thing here too so it’s a lot of additional emails and phone calls on the staff level as well just to make sure that their needs are met so we’re going to take a look at that. I know there’s other communities that had that approach and staff certainly is in favor of implementing that, into that so we’ll review in November or a future meeting coming up here to take a look at and staff will present the options for you guys. So again just attachments with that. We have the categories. Picnic attendance from 2009 to 16. Picnic revenues from the same years and also picnic reservations. The total number of that from those years so I’ll entertain any questions. Boettcher: I noticed there’s no reservation at Lake Susan on Sundays. Do you not want anybody there or is there ball games or? Ruegemer: Yep there is an adult baseball league that plays out there. Boettcher: It is on Sundays, okay. Ruegemer: On Sundays and again it’s that same kind of a situation as the youth tournaments at Lake Ann. It’s a very large number of participation on Sundays out there so to alleviate any types of those you know situations that may, we’ve had family picnics out there and reunions and there’s just a lot of activity out there that it’s just easier not to book out anything on Sunday so. 21 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Kelly: Great, thank you Jerry and thanks for all the great work you do with all of the picnic sites. Ruegemer: Thank you. Hougham: Commissioner Kelly, some questions for Jerry around the discussion of Bandimere. So we’ve had some back and forth on the, whether we need the shelter at Bandimere and we’ve discussed that having a shelter at Bandimere would bring in, the shelter itself just for use at the park it would bring in bathrooms for use at the park. But as far as shelter rental, given what we have here and what we’ve seen over the past few summers like have you turned people away from other parks that would utilize some of that at Bandimere? Do you think if we had the Bandimere shelter we would rent it out in addition to what we have here or would it be instead of? Ruegemer: You know certainly that would be the direction that staff would take from the Park and Recreation Commission. Obviously some of the sites that we have at Lake Ann and Lake Susan on certain weekends we are turning people away because there just isn’t enough room for everybody to us to accommodate that so would another picnic shelter help out? Certainly. You know each park has kind of different amenities. You know obviously the ones at Lake Ann close to the lake with water craft rentals and the playgrounds and a lot of those types of amenities are very popular with people. Bandimere obviously would offer a different experience with that. It certainly could be a suitable use for family gatherings and reunions and grad parties, that sort of thing and certainly tournament uses as well. Hougham: Thank you. Kelly: Thanks Jennifer. Thank you Jerry. Todd anything else you want to offer up for us tonight? Hoffman: I would. I’d like to remind those members on the park system advisory committee th that that meeting’s coming up on November 10. You’ll be seeing the complete set of data from the surveys. 1,377 surveys and then the social pinpoint mapping. Staff has reviewed the bulk data and you’re going to see a lot of things that you know people have a desire for in this community and you’re going to see a number of surprises of things that you thought might have been priorities and did not show up as priorities in the survey and you’re going to see some other things that you may not have anticipated so it’s great data. It’s really a great turnout for our community and then as a commission you’ll see that information at your December meeting which will be your first engagement with the staff level members at Hoisington-Koegler that are working on that plan. The members of the advisory committee will also be attending that if they choose and then both your groups meet in January for really the last time to take a look at what you’re talking about. What you think of the data. What you think people are telling you and what you want to make a recommendation to the City Council about and to the citizens about for the following spring. This is a two part process really in large part. Gather data. Assemble it. 22 Park and Recreation Commission – October 25, 2016 Make some interpretations of that and based on that make some recommendations. Put those recommendations out to the community. Say here’s what we think you’re saying. Do you agree with this? So when that information gets to the council next summer they’re saying okay, this has been checked. Double checked. These are the priorities. Are we going to take action on them or you know how are we going to approach that information so very exciting time in our community. Obviously we’ve done a lot of parks and trails development over the last 50 years but this is the first such planning study that we’ve been engaged in here. Another outcome of that will be the update of the comp plans. The 2040 comp plan will be updated as a part of that process as well so this is two different separate processes but they’re interrelated and interconnected. Kelly: Thank you Todd. Anybody else from the commission have anything they want to offer tonight? Somebody want to put it to the question? Thunberg moved, Boettcher seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to 0. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 23